Week Ending June 21, 1997

Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 12:42:30 +1000 
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From: HAPPYELF <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
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>>so? who says bricks have to be slow??? 
>> 
> 
>  No one- but I have a minor objection to the team Brick being the FASTEST 
>member of the party (I dug up the CHar-Recs for that game) 
>  The brick Had: DEX 33, SPD 8, and 90 STR as well as 30" of Flight 
> 
so??? why do we have to chuck this guy in s steryotype he obviously doesn't fit?? 
 
 
 
>  Yes guys, thats 28 dice on a Move through, and since he had 75% Dam 
>Reduction Phy you can guess what his favorite attack was....I think he 
>tried to buy a 90 pt HA as well (+30 dice), but I'm SURE I shot that one 
>down.... 
> 
 
it just looks like a solid combat style to me. . . . but maybe i'm mad? 
 
 
>  Never should have allowed the character in the first place.... but 
>sometimes things do get past me.... 
> 
 
imhho. .. . it is always better to err on the "give the players the characters they want  
side of your instincts, at least in hero. . .  
 
 
 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 12:47:44 +1000 
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From: HAPPYELF <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: The Return of Scenario Help Needed 
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>I've pretty much changed Mordwen's goals from using Earth's technology to 
>conquer the other dimension.  Now he wants to kill most of the humans, 
>turn the few survivors into his slaves, and rule the world !  Mordwen 
>has determined that his magic and 'dark armies' are sufficient to handle 
>Earth's conventional defenses, however he needs to find a way to deal with 
>the superhumans.  I guess one 'problem' with this is it reduces Mordwen to 
>a fairly stereotypical genocidal megalomaniac...   
> 
>Ideas or suggestions welcome.   
> 
>Curt Hicks 
> 
 
 
how about doing the whole "white elf's burden" slave ethic thing??? 
he could consider supers "almost elfin" , and want to harvest them for their own good..  
. . maybe along with other 'specials'., like normal geniuses and maybe even idiot savants?? you could put the whole creepy 'for your own good" spin on it. .  he  
could evn try to reduce fertility or something like that instead of just killin' the  
hell out of everyone  
 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 12:54:48 +1000 
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>What's not true??  The above statement is simply based on my experience 
>and on the many groups I played with ... which certainly doesn't cover 
>everyone who plays.  That still doesn't make my observations false, and 
>all the more reason why _I_ wouldn't mind seeing how characters are 
>constructed for a _good_ high powered campaign.  I have not been overly 
>pleased with the examples presented the published material. 
 
fair enough. that's due to me not running hero yet  *Lol* 
 
> 
>> important: no frameworks allowed!! 
> 
>And a very importent note!  :-)  That makes a big difference. 
> 
>			~ Mike 
 
a lot can be said for 'cool powers": really wopping ones, but which. . odds are . . won't offer much value-for-points. . . . they seem liike a waste,  
BUT they are huge, so the player has to choose between coll powerrs and just " a billion points of speed" sorta thing. .  
 
 
 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 13:01:32 +1000 
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At 01:49 PM 6/14/97 -0700, you wrote: 
>Mike sez; 
> > 
> > HAPPYELF!!!! wrote: 
> > > important: no frameworks allowed!! 
> > 
> > And a very importent note!  :-)  That makes a big difference. 
> > 
> >                         ~ Mike 
>    Good God!  What is it with this manhunt on frameworks!?  It seems 
> every few weeks, somebody has a beef about power frameworks.... sheesh 
>  
> -- 
>    -Capt. Spith 
>    Savior of Humanity 
>    Secular Messiah 
> 
 
down with frameworks!! flames to the infidels!! *lol* 
seriously, i would only use this rule in a high-powered campaign, though it works  
suprisingly well if you use it(and maybe a FEW other limits) to make a slightly low-power game. 
 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 13:03:13 +1000 
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From: HAPPYELF <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Related Subject 
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At 09:40 PM 6/14/97 -0700, you wrote: 
>Capt. Spith wrote: 
>>  
>> Mike sez; 
>>  > 
>>  > HAPPYELF!!!! wrote: 
>>  > > important: no frameworks allowed!! 
>>  > 
>>  > And a very importent note!  :-)  That makes a big difference. 
>>  > 
>>  >                         ~ Mike 
>>     Good God!  What is it with this manhunt on frameworks!?  It seems 
>>  every few weeks, somebody has a beef about power frameworks.... sheesh 
> 
>Uh, manhunt???  Beef about power frameworks???  What the _heck_ are you 
>talking about?  I'd like for you not to take my message out of context, 
>please! 
> 
>My comment was only noting that this higher powered campaign under 
>discussion didn't use Power Frameworks ... something that wasn't 
>mentioned before and made a difference in my understanding of it. 
> 
>BTW: I happen to use all Power Frameworks, though modifications on 
>Elemental Control per one of the Hero Almanacs.  Power Frameworks do 
>make a big difference, as they save a heck of a lot of points!! 
> 
>However, no "manhunt" or "beef" of any kind was intended! 
> 
>			~ Mike 
> 
 
that's right, capt splith. . you were just imagining it. . . there's no- 
 
CONSPIRACY!!!!! hahahahahahahahaahahahhaahahhaahhahahahahaahhaahhahaah!!!!!!!! 
 
(my humblest apologies for this small piece of spam) 
 
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 21:40:16 -0700 
From: Mike Sprague <sprague@VivaNET.com> 
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Capt. Spith wrote: 
>  
> Mike sez; 
>  > 
>  > HAPPYELF!!!! wrote: 
>  > > important: no frameworks allowed!! 
>  > 
>  > And a very importent note!  :-)  That makes a big difference. 
>  > 
>  >                         ~ Mike 
>     Good God!  What is it with this manhunt on frameworks!?  It seems 
>  every few weeks, somebody has a beef about power frameworks.... sheesh 
 
Uh, manhunt???  Beef about power frameworks???  What the _heck_ are you 
talking about?  I'd like for you not to take my message out of context, 
please! 
 
My comment was only noting that this higher powered campaign under 
discussion didn't use Power Frameworks ... something that wasn't 
mentioned before and made a difference in my understanding of it. 
 
BTW: I happen to use all Power Frameworks, though modifications on 
Elemental Control per one of the Hero Almanacs.  Power Frameworks do 
make a big difference, as they save a heck of a lot of points!! 
 
However, no "manhunt" or "beef" of any kind was intended! 
 
			~ Mike 
 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 00:51:04 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
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Earl Kwallek wrote: 
 
>   No one- but I have a minor objection to the team Brick being the FASTEST 
> member of the party (I dug up the CHar-Recs for that game) 
>   The brick Had: DEX 33, SPD 8, and 90 STR as well as 30" of Flight 
 
You're right.. that IS obscene.. in some games.  In other games, it 
might be the average.  
 
Just so we can get an idea of its obsceneness, what were the power 
levels of the OTHER characters? 
 
Todd 
 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 00:56:08 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
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Capt. Spith wrote: 
 
>     Good God!  What is it with this manhunt on frameworks!?  It seems 
>  every few weeks, somebody has a beef about power frameworks.... sheesh 
 
I've gotta agree with you there.  Everyone seems to have this 'power 
frameworks are evil' mindset. 
 
Power frameworks are only evil IF THE GM LETS THEM BE! 
 
As long as everyone (including the villians) are built using the same 
rules, they aren't abusive! 
 
My first response to any of my players who want to add something obscene 
to one of their characters - 'Okay, fine with me.  You dont mind if the 
villians have this also do you?' 
 
Would you believe that every time the players have decided that they 
would rather not see the same thing used AGAINST them, and have opted to 
NOT add the obscene power? 
 
 
Todd 
 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 01:12:41 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
Subject: Code vs Killing 
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looking for a bit of advice.. 
 
How do other GMs handle a character who has code vs killing.. and kills? 
 
Let me point out up front - this hasn't happened.. YET.  But I'm 
expecting it to. 
 
One of my players has a code vs killing. Kind of my own fault - in order 
to promote more of a 'four color' feel to my game, I started my players 
at 275 pts, and let them take any points taken as 'code vs killing' as 
bonus points.  I have a feeling that THIS player took the disad just for 
the points. 
 
He hasn't actually killed YET, but there are several times (especially 
when losing) where he has threatened to pull out his 'big gun' (his 4d6 
RKA) against villians/agents who obviously have little or no resistant 
defenses (usually with comments along the lines of 'as pissed off as I 
am at this guy, I dont care if I kill him!').  So far his teammates (who 
also all have cvk) have held him back, but (as I've discussed with the 
player), his OWN code vs killing should be holding him back. 
 
Unfortunately the player doesn't see it this way.  He seems to think 
because he only has a 15 point cvk (vs the 20 pt that most of the rest 
of the team does) that he only has to follow the cvk... MOST of the 
time.  Its become pretty clear that the player and I have different 
views of what code vs killing means. 
 
So.. assuming the inevitable happens, how should I handle it?  I don't 
really want to turn it into a big confrontation (besides gaming with 
him, I have to work with him), but I don't intend to let him get by with 
it either. 
 
The obvious penalty is that future experience will be earmarked to 
buying down his code vs killing.  But I wanted an 'in-game' penalty as 
well.  How would the government (he is on an officially sponsored team 
of the city of Chicago) deal with him?   
 
Thanks for the help, 
 
Todd 
 
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Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 00:08:05 -0700 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberhighway.net> 
Subject: Re: Code vs Killing 
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>How do other GMs handle a character who has code vs killing.. and kills? 
 
... 
 
>One of my players has a code vs killing. Kind of my own fault - in order 
>to promote more of a 'four color' feel to my game, I started my players 
>at 275 pts, and let them take any points taken as 'code vs killing' as 
>bonus points.  I have a feeling that THIS player took the disad just for 
>the points. 
 
Drain his points that he got for the code, if he kills, and take it away. 
Then have the government and police chase him all over, and have the 
villains take off the kid gloves.  Then have the family of the guy he kakked 
show up and make him feel guilty.  And for kicks, have a girlfriend be 
related to them somehow. :) 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified) 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 09:02:48 -0500 
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us> 
Subject: Re: Related subject: 
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At 12:42 PM 6/15/97 +1000, HAPPYELF wrote: 
> 
>>>so? who says bricks have to be slow??? 
>>> 
>> 
>>  No one- but I have a minor objection to the team Brick being the FASTEST 
>>member of the party (I dug up the CHar-Recs for that game) 
>>  The brick Had: DEX 33, SPD 8, and 90 STR as well as 30" of Flight 
>> 
>so??? why do we have to chuck this guy in s steryotype he obviously 
doesn't fit?? 
 
  You are either being deliberately dense here, or missing my point 
entirely... 
I have a problem with characters that "Have it all" this guy had the best 
SPD, highest attack (in dice), Best defenses, and second highest DEX/CV in 
the game. 
Now do you understand my objection? 
 
>>  Yes guys, thats 28 dice on a Move through, and since he had 75% Dam 
>>Reduction Phy you can guess what his favorite attack was....I think he 
>>tried to buy a 90 pt HA as well (+30 dice), but I'm SURE I shot that one 
>>down.... 
> 
>it just looks like a solid combat style to me. . . . but maybe i'm mad? 
 
  Fine- but 28 dice in a campaign where the attack range is SUPPOSED to be 
12-15 dice is a bit much don't you think? (and he was trying to get that HA 
for a total of 58 dice!) 
 
>>  Never should have allowed the character in the first place.... but 
>>sometimes things do get past me.... 
>> 
> 
>imhho. .. . it is always better to err on the "give the players the 
characters they want  
>side of your instincts, at least in hero. . .  
 
  IMHO- yer nuts...  Giving my players what they want (at least that group) 
turned the campaign into a never-ending Power Escalation war with NO 
role-playing.  But if you have a better class of player than i did. more 
power to you - me I'll stick to the lower point totals where it's harder to 
build the truly obscene characters... (not impossible - just harder).... 
 
 
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified) 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 09:16:41 -0500 
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us> 
Subject: Re: Related subject: 
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At 12:51 AM 6/15/97 -0500, Todd Hanson wrote: 
>Earl Kwallek wrote: 
> 
>>   No one- but I have a minor objection to the team Brick being the FASTEST 
>> member of the party (I dug up the CHar-Recs for that game) 
>>   The brick Had: DEX 33, SPD 8, and 90 STR as well as 30" of Flight 
> 
>You're right.. that IS obscene.. in some games.  In other games, it 
>might be the average.  
> 
>Just so we can get an idea of its obsceneness, what were the power 
>levels of the OTHER characters? 
 
  First I will tell you (in case you missed it) the level I was aiming for: 
 
Attack		60-75 APts 
DEX			20-25 
SPD			4-6		(Maybe a single 7+) 
Def			25-45 
 
The characters I got (I'm not going to post them all) not inclusing the 
afformentioned BRICK.... 
 
Attack		2 at 90 AP, 2 at 80 AP, 1 at 75, 1 at 60  
			the guy with 60 had 18 different attack powers in a MP) 
 
DEX			3 at 30, 2 at 28, 1 at 25 
 
SPD			5 at 7, 1 at 6 
 
Defense		Not a single player BELOW the 45/45 PD/ED level 
			the lowest resistant Defense was 35/35 
			EVERYONE had Mental Defense 20+ 
			EVERYONE had Power Defense 15+ 
			EVERYONE had Flash Defense (Vision) of 5+ 
			4 (of 7 including brick) had other flash defense) 
			5 (of 7) had some level of Dam reduction  
			4 had Energy Absorbtion 
 
  In short, these players designed a bunch of Combat-Killer-Death-Machines 
rather than anything resembling real people... but then that seems to be 
normal for the games I have run/played in.... 
  Oh well.... 
	 
 
Subject: Re: Code vs Killing 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 97 10:11:57 -0500 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
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Todd Hanson 
 
>looking for a bit of advice.. 
> 
>How do other GMs handle a character who has code v killing.. and kills? 
> 
>He hasn't actually killed YET, but there are several times (especially 
>when losing) where he has threatened to pull out his 'big gun' (his 4d6 
>RKA) against villains/agents who obviously have little or no resistant 
>defenses (usually with comments along the lines of 'as pissed off as I 
>am at this guy, I don't care if I kill him!').  So far his teammates (who 
>also all have cvk) have held him back, but (as I've discussed with the 
>player), his OWN code v killing should be holding him back. 
> 
>Unfortunately the player doesn't see it this way.  He seems to think 
>because he only has a 15 point cvk (v the 20 pt that most of the rest 
>of the team does) that he only has to follow the cvk... MOST of the 
>time.  Its become pretty clear that the player and I have different 
>views of what code v killing means. 
 
     First off, why, exactly, does a CVK character HAVE a 4d6 Killing  
attack?  I've written some really high end characters and I really don't  
think I've ever let a 4d6 creep into them.  That aside however, you are  
REQUIRING he make his EGO check before he pulls out that gun aren't you.   
A STRONG limit requires it.  Also, the more he tries it, the more  
penalties  
you could assess against the roll.  Eventually, he might give up trying  
OR  
just ask to have the thing bought off.  Also, if he fails a check, he'll  
behave "irrationally" to avoid killing.  So have him abandon his team  
mates  
and flee at top speed away from the fight he feels he "has" to kill in.   
During "irrational" periods, it is completely legitimate for the GM to  
take  
control of a PC to enforce what should be happening. 
     If the unthinkable happens and he DOES kill somebody, have the  
character  
beset with remorse.  Say a -4 or -5 on all CV.  Maybe gut his attacks by  
2  
or 3 DC for a while as he subconsciously pulls attacks, fearful of  
hurting  
someone again.  Personally, the only 15 point CvK I've used had a related 
Reputation: CvK does not apply to members of Genocide.  You got it, a  
mutant 
whose families was killed and maimed by Genocide.  Normally wouldn't hurt 
a fly, even went out of his way to learn non-violent capture methods, but 
when Genocide turned up he routinely made that check (to the point the GM 
graciously just let him, since it was part of the concept) and would kill 
without a second thought.  Of course he is sorry that it had to be done. 
     You might also just spend his XP for him on buying the CvK down to 10 
points.  That's, "I try other options first and am not casual about  
killing, 
but if that appears the only recourse, so be it." 
     All this IMHO, of course. 
 
PAX. 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
| Name: John P. Weatherman    | Phone:                             |       
   
| email: asahoshi@nr.infi.net |    (H) (910) 785-1130              | 
| fax:   (910) 748-4632       |    (O) (910) 545-2722              | 
|_____________________________|____________________________________| 
| He who walking on the sea could calm the bitter waves, who gives | 
| life to the dying seeds of the earth; He who was able to loose   | 
| the mortal chains of death and after three days' darkness could  | 
| bring again to the upper world the brother of his sister Martha: | 
| He, I beleive, will make Damasus rise again from the dust.       | 
|                              Pope St. Damasus I (c.305-384)      | 
|__________________________________________________________________| 
 
X-Sender: bsvitavs@acs-mail.bu.edu 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 10:45:13 -0500 
From: bsvitavs@bu.edu (Bill Svitavsky) 
Subject: Re: A Plague on Both Your Houses 
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Todd Hanson wrote: 
 
>Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>> 
>> I'm working on a new Fantasy Hero campaign with a setting very loosely 
>> modeled on the Venetian Empire, where the PC's are members of the houses of 
>> powerful merchant princes. Conflicts between rival families will be very 
>> important, and the first adventure will involve a curse laid upon an entire 
>> family. 
>> 
>> I'd be interested in suggestions for how one might build that kind of 
>> curse. Normally, I'd build a general curse as a Transform target to target 
>> with Unluck. But in this case, the effect goes beyond any individual, and 
>> would probably pass on to future generations. A Transform vs. all the BODY 
>> of all the members of a family seems somewhat unfeasible, though I suppose 
>> a cumulative selective area effect might do it. Anybody got any better 
>> ideas? 
> 
>How about.. 1d6 cumulative transform, continuous uncontrolled, zero 
>end... with the STICKY advantage??  (and a limitation on the 'sticky' 
>part of it - only vs members of the family).   Start this with ONE 
>member of the family and in a very short time it will work its way to 
>each and every branch.  AND this insures that each new member of the 
>family gains the curse at birth. 
> 
 
I really like this approach; I think I'll use it. 
 
As for the many people who suggested the "plot device" approach, I'm not 
averse to unspecified plot devices, but I think it lends credibility to a 
magic system to have even the vastly powerful spells built within it. I 
have a fairly elaborate magic system which I intend to use for this 
campaign, and with the restrictions built into the system concerning types 
of spells, power levels, and spell research, I don't think I have to worry 
about PC's building anything comparable. Meanwhile, I'm perfectly willing 
to let this curse be affected by suppress or dispel (though I'll probably 
make it difficult to dispel) or otherwise interfered with in the usual 
terms of game mechanics. Another advantage of having the spell worked out 
in game mechanics is that it gives me a starting point to build the wizard 
who cast the spell in the first place - he'll either be quite powerful or 
quite specialized (or both.) 
 
Thanks to all for your suggestions. 
 
Bill 
 
"The physical world is true and real; the inner world is also true and 
real. It is when we muddle them, when we fail to live the inner world as 
symbol, when we try to locate it in literal people, that the illusory world 
is created. The illusory world is the projected world, which so distorts 
both inner and outer that we can see neither as it is." 
                                                Robert A. Johnson 
 
 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 11:46:32 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Loophole 
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LOOPHOLE 
(Edward St. John Latham) 
 
Designers Notes: 
Loophole stands 6'1" and weighs 170 lbs.  He is reasonable handsome, 
although a bit cold, and dresses impeccably.  He is so emotionless and 
distant that many believe his human feelings were burned away by the wild 
card virus.  At top notch lawyer, he served the Astronomer at one point, 
before coming into Kien Phuc's employ.  He cares nothing for right and 
wrong, but only if he can get way with what ever he is planning.  He has 
no compunctions about killing, especially if it will aid him in a case. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		10		0 
Dex		10		0 
Con		13		6 
Body		12		4 
Int		23		16 
Ego		23		32 
Pre		20		10 
Com		14		2 
PD		2		0 
ED		2		-1 
Spd		3		10 
Rec		5		0 
End		26		0 
Stun		24		0 
Char Total			79 
Power Total			73 
Total Cost			152 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
4	Contact: Kien Phuc 13- 
1	Perk: Lawyer 
1	Perk: Well known and influental lawyer 
10	Perk: Wealth 
 
3	Acting 13- 
3	AK: New York City 14- 
3	Bureacratics 13- 
3	Criminology 14- 
5	High Society 14- 
8	KS: Law 18- 
5	Oratory 14- 
3	PS: Lawyer (INT) 14- 
4	SC: Intelligence Analysis 14- 
3	SC: Psychology 13- 
5	Streetwise 14- 
1	WF: Pistol 
8	Lang: English (0), French (4), Vietnamese (4) 
3	SL: +1 with all PRE Skills 
 
Disadvantages 
75	Base 
10	DF: Emotionless 
15	Psych: Overconfident, especially in court room situations 
20	Psych: Totally amoral, is concerned only with himself and his 
	employers 
5	Rep: Attorney with far to many criminal dealings 8- 
27	Experience 
 
(Loophole created by Lewis Shiner, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 11:48:23 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Ezili-je-Rouge 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
EZILI-JE-ROUGE 
(Red-Eyed Ezili) 
 
Designers Notes: 
Ezili is very beautiful light-skinned black woman from Port-au-Prince 
Haiti.  She's 5'6" in height and weighs 125 lbs, with red eyes with a 
black iris.  Her hair is thick wild mane that falls to her waist.  She is 
chief among Ti Malice's mounts and is totally devoted to him.  She will do 
anything Ti Malice asks, and is often the one who acquires new mounts for 
him.  She is totally amoral and will do whatever she must to protect Ti 
Malice, regardless of the cost.  
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		11		1 
Dex		15		15 
Con		13		6 
Body		10		0 
Int		14		4 
Ego		14		8 
Pre		18		8 
Com		24		9 
PD		3		1 
ED		3		0 
Spd		3		5 
Rec		5		0 
End		26		0 
Stun		23		0 
Char Total			57 
Power Total			64 
Total Cost			121 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
3	+1 with Perception 
5	Contact: Ti Malice 15- 
5	Perk: Wealth 
 
7	Disguise 13- 
7	KS: 'Karma Sutra' 16- 
5	KS: Posions 14- 
5	KS: Posion Brewing 14- 
9	PS: 'Karma Sutra' 18- 
5	Seduction 14- 
3	Streetwise 13- 
1	WF: Knife 
7	Lang: English (3), French (4), Hatian Creole (0) 
2	CSL: +1 OCV with Knife 
 
Disadvantages 
50	Base 
15	DF: Very beautiful, has red eyes 
20	Phys: Addicted to Ti Malice's 'kiss' 
5	(15) Phys: Addicted to various narcotics 
0	(0) Phys: Illiterate 
20	Psych: Protective of Ti Malice 
5	(10) Psych: Amoral lecherousness (very bisexual) 
6	Experience 
 
(Ezili-je-Rouge created by John J Miller, character sheet created by 
Michael Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 11:49:50 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Charles Dutton 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
CHARLES DUTTON 
 
Designers Notes: 
Dutton is tall, standing 6'3" and very leaning, weighing 180 lbs.  His 
face is that of a yellowish living skull.  He is a prime player in the 
Jokertown community, owning the Bowery Wild Card Dime Museum, a portion of 
the Crystal Palace and a number of other businesses.  He is reclusive, 
preferring to work behind the scenes, but is well known in Jokertown.  His 
is a major collector of ace 'souvenirs' and displays his collection in his 
museum. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		9		-1 
Dex		10		0 
Con		13		6 
Body		12		4 
Int		18		8 
Ego		15		10 
Pre		15		5 
Com		6		-2 
PD		2		0 
ED		2		-1 
Spd		2		0 
Rec		5		0 
End		26		0 
Stun		24		0 
Char Total			29 
Power Total			32 
Total Cost			64 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
10	Perk: Wealthy 
 
4	PS: Accountant (INT) 14- 
3	PS: Museum Curator (INT) 13- 
3	PS: Stockbroker (INT) 13- 
4	SC: Accounting 14- 
3	Streetwise 12- 
5	Trading 14- 
 
Disadvantages 
25	Base 
5	Age: 40+ 
15	DF: Face is a yellowish skull 
10	Psych: Sense of duty to help jokers 
9	Experience 
 
(Charles Dutton created by Walter Simons, character sheet created by 
Michael Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 11:10:14 -0700 
From: "Capt. Spith" <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Related subject: 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
happyelf!!!! wrote: 
>  
> Mike Sprague wrote: 
> > 
> > I took this off line, because I doubt anyone but you and I are 
> > interested (not to mention things I wrote being taken out of context). 
> > :-) 
>  
> capt splith was just kidding!!! 
> hanks, but i really think we should discuss this on the list- that's what it's for!! 
> i get plenty bored of all this wildcards stuff. . . (sorry) 
 
   Yes, I wasn't accusing you personally of loathing frameworks, just 
randomly commenting on the frequency of mention in various ways of 
problems with frameworks. 
(BTW, no 'l' in 'Spith', please :-)> ) 
 
> > > a lot can be said for 'cool powers": really wopping ones, but which 
> > > . . odds are . . won't offer much value-for-points. . . . they seem 
> > > liike a waste, BUT they are huge, so the player has to choose between 
> > > coll powerrs and just " a billion points of speed" sorta thing. . 
 
   Is that like a 'thousand points of light'? 
 
   <...snip...> 
 
> > Can you give me examples of what you mean? 
> > 
> >                         ~ Mike 
> what i meant is really complex webs of powers-  with heaps of limitations and 
> advantages, most invented  by the gm- and designet to steal points!! think of it 
> as sort of a reverse- framework- with the player spending extra points of real 
> cost for just a really cool power!!! 
 
   This is why I think there's nothing wrong with frameworks regardless 
of point level; i.e.; I built for one of my players a 'sound wave' power 
- he turned into a sound wave.  I had to include a desolidification, 
obscene flight, and a few attacks, all useable while desolid.  Without 
frameworks, there's no way in hell it would have been an acceptable 
point level.  What I ended up with was a very effective, but also very 
limited character, which overall was balanced with the other characters 
in the game. 
   Aside from - say - a 200 point VPP, frameworks tend to balance out, 
if the inherent limitions are used; if the GM occasionally makes sure to 
use attack vs. SFX against them, and makes the fellow with the MP wish 
he could use a couple of his slots at once, etc.  In fact, I think that 
with higher-level games (350+ or so), I would think it'd be easier for a 
GM to decide to capitalize on the framework limitations. 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
From: DocTough@aol.com 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 15:26:12 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Code vs Killing 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Doc sez... 
 
     Ah, the interesting problem that every GM must contend with at some 
point in their campaign is how to handle PCs with Code vs Killing.  There 
have been a few article written on this subject, but none left me feeling 
that they gave a good answer.  I ran into this problem shortly after I 
started GMing in 1981.  What follows isn't an absolute answer but simply 
observations from my campaigns. 
 
     As mentioned, i found out about this situation shortly after picking up 
the GM reins in a Champions 1 campaign.  The players were coming out of 
playing D&D and had the Kill it mentality fairly well bred into them.  They 
equated the offing of a NPC as okay and what characters simply did.  They 
were a good group of players, but very violent and destructive overall. 
 Efforts to make the PCs with CvK failed  and even back fired when I forcibly 
tried tmake them not bump thugs and agents off. 
 
     * Point One:  NEVER force the character/player to do or not do 
something.* 
 
     Things went along this way until a new batch of players entered the 
scene. They were older and came out of other AD&D games were the DM didn't 
reward slaughtering everthing in sight.  The two groups clashed over the 
topic and their voices and the actions by their PCs toned the mayhem down a 
bit. 
 
     *Point Two:  Let the other players in the campaign lead on issues that 
could be disruptive the game.  The GM then acts arbitor and peacemaker.* 
 
     Their influence brought about many of the "Killer" PCs buying off or 
transforming their CvKs to something else.  Unfortunately, the issue didn't 
get completely resolved because some of the newer players started going to 
non-lethal extremes themselves.  This flair up was nasty because I personally 
started laying down a strict morality law.  Breaking it resulted in swift, 
really swift retaliation from me.  BIG ERROR.  Even the good players rebelled 
and things got ugly. 
 
     *Point Three:  While the GM has the right to the campaign ethics, they 
shouldn't be used as a sledgehammer.  Player should be free to act as they 
feel, but they must understand their may be consequences involved.  State 
this to all players new and old.* 
 
     That spat was resolved by the above understanding.  After this I really 
scrutinzed ANY player taking CvK.  I gave most players a grace period to see 
if they would be able to play it.  If things didn't seem to the case, then 
they were allowwed to switch the points to another Disad.  Some players 
simply stopped taking CvK after a while. 
 
     *Point Four:  Give the player the benfit of the doubt to be able to play 
the Disad.  If they can't handle it, just let them try something else with no 
recriminations.* 
 
     Even later in the game even newer player came to play who had not been 
around during the painful earlt times and brought in their own thoughts about 
how '90s heroes act (Thanks Image).  They would manipulate the Frequency and 
Intensity aspects to create a CvK that could be played, but still allowwed 
them to get awith alot.  Another flair up over this resulted in the 
enforcement of the idea that a Disad that isn't a Problem is worth NO POINTS. 
 
     *Point Five:  A Character Disad that isn't a problem is worth no 
points.* 
 
     More recently, I've begun handling how CvKs of differing values are 
treated.  A Code vs Killing is now defined as being unable to use lethal 
force or tactics against an opponent that MAY not be able to take it.  This 
means that PCs can use differing force levels against opponents if they know 
their targets possible ability to survive the attack or action.  Even if they 
are mortally in danger they may not use lethal tactics to get out of it. 
     What balances this out is how easily they can temporarily overcome this 
ethic.  The Intensity mod controls this ability.  Modest means that the PC 
can override their natural mores by making a simple EGO roll.  If made, the 
PC can carry out they questionable action.  A Strong intensity requires an 
EGO roll at -3.  A Total intensity sually means that the PC isn't able to 
overcome this deep set ethic at all, although I do allow players in REALLY 
BAD situations to attempt a Critical EGO roll to act against the Disad. 
     Players are not allowwed to abuse this Disad.  Abusers are policed by 
the other players who realize that campaign repercussions effect all PCs. 
 Offending PCs are asked to change their ways or create a new character. 
 
     So far this is working fairly well and only one PC has recently gone so 
far over the abuse limit that his character had to go through a special 
senario to "correct" the character. 
 
Doc Tough 
 
PS:  Sometimes focussing on the "Killer" character and giving them the 
spotlight, even if they don't want it can help. 
 
From: BeerCarboy@aol.com 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 15:59:42 -0400 (EDT) 
cc: catdrag@vnet.net, champion@cyberhighway.net, deejay@cu-online.com, 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu, sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Loophole 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Isn't this the guy who creates the jumpers via buggery?  How about showing us 
THAT power?  Talk about expensive . . . 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Carter Humphrey                                  BeerCarboy@AOL.com 
 
From: Chuff78002@aol.com 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:47:47 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Champions: New Millenium 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 15/06/97  09:03:05am, you write: 
 
<< Granted that's a bit of an over generalization, but the 
 common consenses was 'why switch?' (especally with my local gaming 
 group). Now, there are a few people on the list who liked the book and the 
 game system, and there is a mailing list dedicated to the Fuzion system. 
 Personally, I saw a few nice ideas, but nothing to make me dump all my old 
 4th edition books and switch over. >> 
 
Err as it's called Fuzion, I intend to blend the best elements of BOTH 
systems together....after all, isn't that what the publishers have suggested 
somewhere ? 
I'm not dumping my 4th ed stuff either...in fact, I also use 2nd ed stuff as 
well ! 
Chuf78002 
 
From: Chuff78002@aol.com 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:47:47 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Code vs Killing 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 15/06/97  06:29:47am, you write: 
 
<<  
 So.. assuming the inevitable happens, how should I handle it?  I don't 
 really want to turn it into a big confrontation (besides gaming with 
 him, I have to work with him), but I don't intend to let him get by with 
 it either. 
  
 The obvious penalty is that future experience will be earmarked to 
 buying down his code vs killing.  But I wanted an 'in-game' penalty as 
 well.  How would the government (he is on an officially sponsored team 
 of the city of Chicago) deal with him?   
  >> 
 
Question 1 does the team he is in work for an official organisation ?  In 
which case if the answer is yes, and the team is merely a squad, (smaller 
part of  a larger organisation ) then one of the rep's from another team 
should/could be sent to bring the guy in . 
Let him know that this guy is going to bring him in and if he resists, he's 
gonna get bounced.... 
 
Question 2 Why couldn't the team leader 'ground' the guy for a while, or at 
least, give  a warning that their superiors are watching him. 
 
Of course, he's gonna inherit new watched and possibly hunted disad's if the 
guy actually pulls the trigger....at least let him know that the feds have 
very big guns with which they can deal with him if needs be.... 
 
Chuff78002. 
 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:05:31 -0700 
From: "happyelf!!!!" <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Related subject: 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Mike Sprague wrote: 
>  
> I took this off line, because I doubt anyone but you and I are 
> interested (not to mention things I wrote being taken out of context). 
> :-) 
 
capt splith was just kidding!!! 
hanks, but i really think we should discuss this on the list- that's what it's for!!  
i get plenty bored of all this wildcards stuff. . . (sorry) 
 
>  
> > a lot can be said for 'cool powers": really wopping ones, but which 
> > . . odds are . . won't offer much value-for-points. . . . they seem 
> > liike a waste, BUT they are huge, so the player has to choose between 
> > coll powerrs and just " a billion points of speed" sorta thing. . 
>  
> I can't say I really follow you, here.  If I didn't, ignore the 
> following: 
>  
> Many cool whopping big powers can be made affordable by the application 
> of Limitations.  For that matter, though whopping big powers _do_ tend 
> to give value-for-points ... often unbalancing the game. 
>  
> There are cases where things cost to much (Flash, for example), but 
> there are more that cost too little (Aid and Hand Attack).  Over all, 
> things are pretty well ballanced. 
>  
> Can you give me examples of what you mean? 
>  
>                         ~ Mike  
what i meant is really complex webs of powers-  with heaps of limitations and 
advantages, most invented  by the gm- and designet to steal points!! think of it 
as sort of a reverse- framework- with the player spending extra points of real  
cost for just a really cool power!!! 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Code vs Killing 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 15 Jun 1997 18:16:33 -0400 
Lines: 52 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TH" == Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> writes: 
 
TH> How do other GMs handle a character who has code vs killing.. and 
TH> kills? 
 
First of all I have to ask two questions: what is the level of the 
psychological limitation and what are the circumstances surrounding the 
event? 
 
In general, a character with a "total" psychological against killing will 
*NEVER* use potentialy lethal force.  This does not mean he will just never 
use Killing Attacks because not all KAs are lethal; a 15d6 Energy Blast 
certainly *is* lethal force if you shoot it at a "normal" person.  It means 
that if the character knows that certain actions could result in the death 
of another he will actively avoid performing those actions regardless of 
the circumstances.  In fact, most characters with this level of 
psychological limitation will never even consider the use of lethal force. 
 
At the lesser levels of the disadvantage the character will still actively 
avoid performing actions that could be lethal.  To such a character the use 
of lethal force is an absolute last resort, to be used when all other 
avenues have been explored. 
 
In either case should the character actually kill someone the psychological 
trauma is going to be be pretty severe. 
 
A Code vs. Killing represents a character's desire not to kill.  It is not, 
as this player belives, a license to kill only some of the time.  If the 
character will use lethal force on a continuing basis, if he *wants* to do 
so, he should not have a Code vs. Killing. 
 
So I suggest either slapping the player down (not a good idea) or get him 
to buy off the disadvantage since it clearly is nothing more than free 
points for him. 
 
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Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
From: Firelynx16@aol.com 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:46:03 -0400 (EDT) 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Code vs Killing 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 97-06-15 02:29:47 EDT, you write: 
 
<< looking for a bit of advice.. 
  
 How do other GMs handle a character who has code vs killing.. and kills? 
[snip] 
  He seems to think 
 because he only has a 15 point cvk (vs the 20 pt that most of the rest 
 of the team does) that he only has to follow the cvk... MOST of the 
 time.  Its become pretty clear that the player and I have different 
 views of what code vs killing means. >> 
 
Even though the cvk is only 15 points (common, strong), the character is 
still forced by the Psych Lim to make every effort within his/her disposal to 
prevent killing (by his hand or someone else) for at least one Phase, and 
then can only stray from this stringent path by making an EGO roll... so it's 
not up to the player at all.  If anything, it's up to the dice.  Of course, 
there are always situations where the GM can wave the Disad away if they 
think it really fits the moment.  But the rest of the time, if the player 
goes against the Psych Lim, take an XP away from him, and tell him 
immediately when you're doing it, and why.  That's how I would handle it in 
my game, anyway. 
 
Brad 
 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:25:19 -0700 
From: Mike Sprague <sprague@VivaNET.com> 
Reply-To: sprague@VivaNET.com 
Subject: Complex Powers and Frameworks (Was: Related subject) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
happyelf!!!! wrote: 
> what i meant is really complex webs of powers-  with heaps of 
> limitations and advantages, most invented by the gm- and designet 
> to steal points!! think of it as sort of a reverse- framework- with 
> the player spending extra points of real cost for just a really 
> cool power!!! 
 
Okay, I think I sort of follow you now.  :-)  I'll admit I have done 
things like that to my own characters from time to time ... probably 
paid more than I should have because I had something that I thought 
looked cool, and wanted it to work a specific way.  I tend to write 
very point effecient characters however (though I try not to take 
advantage of STR, Aid or Hand Attack costs) so it balances out. 
 
I have rarely seen GM's do this however, which is strange, since 
NPC's do not really need to be built to a specific set of points 
like PC's are.  (Chuckle, 12 years ago, I was GM'ing a Champs game, 
and one of the players got upset because I was not basing the 
villians on the (then) standard 225 points.)  When creating an NPC 
as a GM, I am more concerned with balance and what the villain will 
do the the game, than in how many points he cost.  I still add it 
up though. 
 
As a GM, I love having NPC's that cause the players to say "How 
does he/she do that?"  Predictable villians, whoes powers are 
well understood can end up boring for both the GM and players. 
 
 
Capt. Spith wrote: 
> This is why I think there's nothing wrong with frameworks 
> regardless of point level; i.e.; I built for one of my players 
> a 'sound wave' power - he turned into a sound wave.  I had to 
> include a desolidification, obscene flight, and a few attacks, 
> all useable while desolid.  Without frameworks, there's no way 
> in hell it would have been an acceptable point level.  What I 
> ended up with was a very effective, but also very limited 
> character, which overall was balanced with the other characters 
> in the game. 
 
Okay, since you got me started ... I haven't been involved in a 
Framework Discussion here for about three years now.  :-)  I'm not 
trying to start a new one, I'm just expressing my observations and 
views, along with givng advice that some might find useful.  You 
can take it or leave it!! 
 
While I won't say there is nothing wrong with Frameworks, I _am_ 
on the side that likes and uses them.  That's why I took offence at 
a quote from my message tied in with a manhunt on Frameworks.  :-) 
 
Anyway, 
 
Mike's Observations and Views on Power Frameworks: 
 
1) I feel that Frameworks are like any other power that has a 
   magnifying glass or a Stop sign next to them.  The GM _must_ 
   take a close look at them, to make sure they make sense and 
   are not too abusive. 
 
2) Since Frameworks tend to be so points effecient, all characters 
   should probably use them in order to keep balanced with each 
   other. This is the main reason, I continue to allow Elemental 
   Control.  The other Frameworks don't always work with a 
   character concept. 
 
3) Frameworks make a lot of character concepts possible that would 
   otherwise either be too expensive to create or would simply cost 
   to much for the function receivedto be worth playing. 
 
4) The way a gaming group uses Limitations, both in general and 
   specific to a Framework, greatly affects any ability to really 
   generalize anything about frameworks.  Whats abusive in one 
   group is not an issue in another.  That said, I'll still try.  :-) 
 
 
As far as the individual Frameworks go: 
 
Elemental Control: 
 
This Framework is simply there to save points.  I admit that it's 
evil, :-) but I still like and use it.  The problem is that it has 
no built in Limitations like the others.  It simply saves points. 
 
My advice: 
 
a) Look for, and don't allow ones with lots of powers (unless, of 
   course, you want to).  The more powers you add, the greater the 
   cost savings, and the more powerful the character becomes when 
   compared to the others (unless they do the same thing). 
 
b) Be very very picky about what goes in, paying close attention 
   to the Special Powers.  For example, I tend to allow Enhances 
   senses in EC's, but I usually won't allow multiple Enhanced 
   Senses combined into one Slot, which means that many are cheaper 
   to buy outside the EC, unless it's a small one.  On the flip 
   side, I usually won't allow the same power to be bought as 
   multiple slots.  For example, three Slots of STR, each with 
   different Limitations.  Since thay can be used together, I 
   consider this one power, which the character got to subtract 
   the base EC cost off three times!  I insist the character buy 
   it all in one slot, and use partially Limited powers. 
 
c) I only allow a character to take Elemetal Control when none of 
   the other frameworks fit their character concept.  That is, they 
   can't use this framework if they use any others. 
 
d) Consider using the rules modifications found in one of the Hero 
   Alminacs.  All the powers in an EC share a common base power 
   (the EC itself) so if a power in an EC is Drained, Supressed, 
   Transferred or the like, then all powers in the EC are affected. 
   There are verious ways you can use this, I play it such that the 
   slot cost is affected first, but once it dips into the EC, then 
   everything in the EC goes down by that much. 
 
 
MultiPower: 
 
This framework has the biggest Limitations built in, but I find it 
the framework that get's abused the most (ignoring points rape using 
EC).  This is because once you pay for the pool (where the cost can 
greatly be reduced by Limitations), and then powers defined as ultra's 
cost next to nothing, so you can have many cheaply.  This is both 
good and bad. 
 
My advice: 
 
a) Look for, and don't allow "Swiss Army Knife" MP's (unless again, 
   it doesn't bother you).  MP should not be a cheap method to get 
   every neat power in the book!  Also, if most of the slots are 
   attacks, then the built in MP limitations, where you can use 
   only one at a time rarely comes into play (and let's not drop 
   into the great linked debate again). 
 
b) I like to apply many of the EC concepts to MP.  The reason for 
   having an MP should be closely tied to special effect.  I think 
   the ideal MP is where for example, you have a character based on 
   fire/flames, where he has some kind of Flame blast.  The MP _is_ 
   his flame blast, and the slots define the way the flame blast can 
   be used.  Slots might include a straight EB, an EB with Area Effect, 
   an EB with some other Advantage, and maybe a Change Environment, 
   when the power is turned on low.  In other words, you get a break 
   for redundent powers. 
 
c) I am not fond of characters with two MP, one full of attack powers, 
   and one full of defense type stuff ... through if you tied all 
   those points together into a big MP, the end cost turns out to 
   pretty much be the same.  Still, it allows different Limitations 
   to be universally applied to the MP. 
 
 
Variable Power Pool: 
 
Actually, this is the Framework I have the least problem with.  In 
general, it seems to work.  Of course I'm not saying it isn't 
abusive, but in my experience, it is rarely used .... and is  
especially avoided by our powergamers.  The fact that the Active 
points of a power can not exceed the number of points in the pool, 
and that you can not take limitations on the pool itself, tend to 
keep the Variable Power Pool in check. 
 
Advice: 
 
a) Avoid "Cosmic" Power Pools, or for that matter, any pool that 
   can be changed on the fly during combat.  Players who have this 
   will just seriously bog things down, and make the game boring 
   for everyone else. 
 
b) If you _do_ allow pools that can be changed on the fly during 
   combat, consider limiting the powers in them to ones the 
   character has predefined ahead of time. 
 
This turned out to be longer than I expected.  I hope someone get's 
some use out of it. 
 
			~ Mike 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"Earl Kwallek\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 00:13:00  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Related subject: 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 23 
 
On Sun, 15 Jun 1997 09:02:48 -0500, Earl Kwallek wrote: 
 
>At 12:42 PM 6/15/97 +1000, HAPPYELF wrote: 
>> 
>>>>so? who says bricks have to be slow??? 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>>  No one- but I have a minor objection to the team Brick being the FASTEST 
>>>member of the party (I dug up the CHar-Recs for that game) 
>>>  The brick Had: DEX 33, SPD 8, and 90 STR as well as 30" of Flight 
>>> 
>>so??? why do we have to chuck this guy in s steryotype he obviously 
>doesn't fit?? 
> 
>  You are either being deliberately dense here, or missing my point 
>entirely... 
>I have a problem with characters that "Have it all" this guy had the best 
>SPD, highest attack (in dice), Best defenses, and second highest DEX/CV in 
>the game. 
>Now do you understand my objection? 
 
<subtle hint coming up :}> 
 
Right, so what was the guy's ECV?  
 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:19:21 -0700 
From: Mike Sprague <sprague@VivaNET.com> 
Reply-To: sprague@VivaNET.com 
Subject: Re: Code vs Killing 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
DocTough@aol.com wrote: 
>  
> Doc sez... 
>  
> [test deleted] 
 
Doc sez a lot of good stuff here!!! 
 
 
While our group is usually pretty good about this sort of thing, they 
were getting a little too violent for "heroes."  I dealt with this in 
two ways. 
 
First, the gaming session following an adventure (each of which usually 
lasts several gaming sessions) I pass out a "NewsFax," which summarizes 
the last adventure, contains clues to upcoming adventures (including red 
herrings) and general news of what is going on in the gaming 
city/world.  This is always from the viewpoint of local reporters and 
includes editorials. 
 
Not only is it a good way to recap the adventures and start new ones, 
the players have a pretty good idea what the public things of them in 
general (they have a running feud with the DA and Cheif of Police, but 
the Mayor is starting to like them). 
 
 
Second, things came to a head when one of the players did a full killing 
attack against a normal with no resistent defenses (the normla had an 
assault rifle pointed at the character, and had told her to freese).  
The normal was not killed, but was in very bad shape.  A paramedic roll 
was made, but then the real battle begain with an explosion.  The normal 
took more BODY, and begain to bleed again.  By the time the battle was 
over, no one had a good enough Paramedics roll to save her, and she 
"died in their arms."  The player felt pretty bad about killing a 
normal, but then got rather upset when she was charged with assault. 
 
The whole next gaming session was spent in court.  One of the players 
(the slimy power gamer :-) got to play her lawyer.  I gave him a bunch 
of info I have from various books on law and penalties for crimes.  I 
played the DA and the jury.  Each of the PC's got to take the stand and 
tell what they saw happen, along with other hostile and friendly 
witnesses. 
 
I told them that the outcome would depend on their putting together a 
good defense.  They did a good job, and made heavy use of the facts that 
the deceased was a criminal who did fire her weapon (self defense), and 
that the explosion was what actually killed the NPC. 
 
They managed to sway the jury their way, and the assault charges were 
dropped, but that character then had to go in for a psych analysis and 
do some time in the "mutant Research Institute."  
 
NONE of the players what to go through this again, and have been much 
more careful since.  Chuckle, several have also improved there Paramedic 
skills. 
 
			~ Mike 
 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:25:25 -0700 
From: "happyelf!!!!" <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Related Subject 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Todd Hanson wrote: 
>  
>  
> Would you believe that every time the players have decided that they 
> would rather not see the same thing used AGAINST them, and have opted to 
> NOT add the obscene power? 
>  
> Todd 
 
 
 
i don't have that choice: i have villans with obscene powers on principle!! 
 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:29:17 -0700 
From: "happyelf!!!!" <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Code vs Killing 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
always by the "always" frequency bit for cvk, but let the players choose the strenth: 
either strong or total, or moderate if they are a real b (just don't want to get their  
clothes dirty maybe). 
 
if the player wants to resist, they can roll a ego roll!!!  (with whatever penelties u  
want, based on their motives for not wanting to kill) 
 
 
 
 
Todd Hanson wrote: 
>  
> looking for a bit of advice.. 
>  
> How do other GMs handle a character who has code vs killing.. and kills? 
>  
> Let me point out up front - this hasn't happened.. YET.  But I'm 
> expecting it to. 
>  
> One of my players has a code vs killing. Kind of my own fault - in order 
> to promote more of a 'four color' feel to my game, I started my players 
> at 275 pts, and let them take any points taken as 'code vs killing' as 
> bonus points.  I have a feeling that THIS player took the disad just for 
> the points. 
>  
> He hasn't actually killed YET, but there are several times (especially 
> when losing) where he has threatened to pull out his 'big gun' (his 4d6 
> RKA) against villians/agents who obviously have little or no resistant 
> defenses (usually with comments along the lines of 'as pissed off as I 
> am at this guy, I dont care if I kill him!').  So far his teammates (who 
> also all have cvk) have held him back, but (as I've discussed with the 
> player), his OWN code vs killing should be holding him back. 
>  
> Unfortunately the player doesn't see it this way.  He seems to think 
> because he only has a 15 point cvk (vs the 20 pt that most of the rest 
> of the team does) that he only has to follow the cvk... MOST of the 
> time.  Its become pretty clear that the player and I have different 
> views of what code vs killing means. 
>  
> So.. assuming the inevitable happens, how should I handle it?  I don't 
> really want to turn it into a big confrontation (besides gaming with 
> him, I have to work with him), but I don't intend to let him get by with 
> it either. 
>  
> The obvious penalty is that future experience will be earmarked to 
> buying down his code vs killing.  But I wanted an 'in-game' penalty as 
> well.  How would the government (he is on an officially sponsored team 
> of the city of Chicago) deal with him? 
>  
> Thanks for the help, 
>  
> Todd 
 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:07:45 -0700 
From: "happyelf!!!!" <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: my wierdest campaign >long< 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
okey- dokey, the chat server i'm addicted to is down fer i while, so i have tme to go n  
about one of my wierdest campaigns: 
 
 
 
the campaign was called "downward spiral", and it followed the tribulations of  
a bunch of supers in a sci-fi city known as the spiral- because it was a spiral,  
a hole in the crust of a planet which reached right into the mantle, with a city 
built on one continuious spiraling ledge which curled around and around the walls of the  
hole. the city was one of 100, scattered across a barren planet with no atmosphere.  
the idea was that ice-miners would fly by, flinging their massive payloads of  
frozen whatever into 'the maw' as it was know, the massive lava-filled pit which was  
the bottom level of the spiral, which was a huge lava vent. all this stuff would hiss  
and bubble away, eventually giving the planet some sort of breathable atmosphere, thanks  
to the scads of supertech being used. The idea was that since there was no atmosphere 
the stuff just wouldn't burn up on reentry. now, because of the pure volume of the  
daily deliveries, plus the aformentioned supertech, it was actually possible to  
live, and even breathe on certain levels of the spiral!! the air was actuall breathable 
in the middle sections, where most of the nasty stuff ws filtered out, but the air 
pressure was still okay. obviously this is all very shaky, but the imagry of a huge  
pitt, which looked like like a smoking bullethole from the air, plus all the gas and  
falling asteroids and sweeping purity-beams was pure gold, imhho. 
 
the 'greater setting' went something like this(basically a bit conventional): 
it was about 100 years after our time, in te future of a 'standard' superheroic  
genre. Rather than doing the whole 'galaxy guardians" bit, but quite a grim setting- 
almost like warhammer40k, with whole planets teetering on the brink. ..  
 
the human race was a massive congregation of system-governments and independant  
planets, some fair and democratic, others pits of corperate or military opression. 
The spiral world was basically one of the latter, but some areas of society were  
treated well and fairly thanks to their unions. The unions existed because they had 
the support of the local superheros. Yup, in almost every area, supers flourished. 
The military and corperate security had squads of "psudclones", who had cloned dna  
fragments which gave them superpowers, though not the match of the true superhumans- 
they were expensive to create and, since cloning was illegal and usually didn't work on  
supers, only certain baddies had cloned supers.  
 
The way idea was that the 'bloodline' oh a powerful superhuman only ran for a generation  
or two, so the tough ones(first generation) were always popping up in unexpected corners 
hence the Supers of the campaign, who were mostly born in the 'middle zone', in a  
society suprisingly simmilar to ours- the middle circle was the outside-habitable  
section which functioned sorta like a big hotel, like a stopover fo rich folks, which  
actually did great buisness, what with the spectacle of the purity beams and all.. .. 
 
above this was the airtight towers of the ultra-rich, and below was the slums and  
gaseous squallor of hell, as it was known. . a bit cliche i know but it was a solid 
framework, with heaps of stuff going on. . Superheros were well-respected, especially  
in this neck of the wood where they were , quite literally, the champions of the  
opressed- they were the hard edge the unions needed to keep their standard of living,  
and the link between the two groups was common on many plnets of the human side of  
things. . .  
 
 
as for the aliens. . .  
 
 
. . gee.. . i've really gotta go. . .  sorry.. . . 
 
well, i may finish this later. . . bye!!  
 
 
 
HAPPYELF!!!    AKA    Michael John Jones        AKA      DIEHARD!                        
                                 
lord of               "How's my typing?               "last of the                       
goofy carnage:        phone: 1-800-BITEME"            tough-guy heros"                   
look fer me in                                        coming to a PBEM                   
iseek.com/                                            near YOU! (maybe)                  
TheGathering       (jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au)          
   :->~                       :-<~                        B->~ 
 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:50:39 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
Subject: Re: Code vs Killing 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 1 
 
DocTough@aol.com wrote: 
 
> PS:  Sometimes focussing on the "Killer" character and giving them the 
> spotlight, even if they don't want it can help. 
 
Well, if this character decides to take the step over the edge, there 
WILL be campaign consequences.. and his character WILL get the spotlight 
for awhile.. although I don't know how much he's going to enjoy it  ;) 
 
First off, the character WILL be put suspension while the matter is 
investigated (he's part of a government sponsored team which comes with 
police powers.  This is similar to what happens to a police officer who 
kills in the line of duty).  More than likely the investigation is going 
to determine that he was justified in using the lethal force (in the 
middle of the battle, some villians were using lethal attacks, thought 
the team was in danger, etc...) so after he is eventually re-instated to 
the team, he'll still be on probation for a while with one of the other 
PCs being put in charge of 'babysitting' him.  On top of this there will 
be the public reaction, media attention (Mr. Frost - what exactly gives 
you the authority to act as judge, jury and executionor of criminals?  
Do you believe that your powers puts you above the law?) etc. 
 
Any other ideas, or problems with the above? 
 
Todd 
 
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:08:22 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
Subject: Re: Code vs Killing 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 2 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> >>>>> "TH" == Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> writes: 
>  
> TH> How do other GMs handle a character who has code vs killing.. and 
> TH> kills? 
>  
> First of all I have to ask two questions: what is the level of the 
> psychological limitation and what are the circumstances surrounding the 
> event? 
 
 
The CvK is at the 15 point level.   A typical situation is:  villians 
have a mentalist that has tagged him a couple of times (he has NO mental 
defense).  The mentalist is stunned by another character - he'll make a 
comment along the lines of... 'I'm thinking about using my killing 
attack on her.. '  At that point either myself or one of the other 
players will remind him about his CvK.  His response is usually along 
the lines of... 'as pissed as I am at her I dont CARE if I kill her' 
(although he will use a less lethal attack). 
 
Like I said, he hasnt actually killed YET but I'm expecting it to happen 
(the player has a history of having his CHARACTER do irrational things 
when the PLAYER is annoyed or frustrated about something).  
 
 
Todd 
 
Todd 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Code vs Killing 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 15 Jun 1997 23:38:40 -0400 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TH" == Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> writes: 
 
TH> Like I said, he hasnt actually killed YET but I'm expecting it to 
TH> happen (the player has a history of having his CHARACTER do irrational 
TH> things when the PLAYER is annoyed or frustrated about something). 
 
I suppose the best thing I can suggest you do is sit down with the guy and 
have him buy off the out of character disadvantages or exchange them for an 
equivalent point value of disadvantages that fit the character he is 
playing.  If he has even a half a clue he'll go for it.  But if he insists 
on keeping what he has and continues to play as he does, when he starts 
trying to make good on his threats you slap him on the nose and take away 
his "playing in character" experience because he clearly is not playing in 
character. 
 
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Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 13:40:45 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: HAPPYELF <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Related subject: 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 4 
 
At 09:02 AM 6/15/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>At 12:42 PM 6/15/97 +1000, HAPPYELF wrote: 
>> 
>>>>so? who says bricks have to be slow??? 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>>  No one- but I have a minor objection to the team Brick being the FASTEST 
>>>member of the party (I dug up the CHar-Recs for that game) 
>>>  The brick Had: DEX 33, SPD 8, and 90 STR as well as 30" of Flight 
>>> 
>>so??? why do we have to chuck this guy in s steryotype he obviously 
>doesn't fit?? 
> 
>  You are either being deliberately dense here, or missing my point 
>entirely... 
>I have a problem with characters that "Have it all" this guy had the best 
>SPD, highest attack (in dice), Best defenses, and second highest DEX/CV in 
>the game. 
>Now do you understand my objection? 
> 
 
no. you can't play a game like champs and expect people to limit themselves, you 
as gm must do it yourself..  
you don't see many 'balanced' supers in comics, and that's the most resonable set of guidelines i can think of (as opposed to mana, where everyone has 8+ spd, imhho) 
 
 
 
 
>>>  Yes guys, thats 28 dice on a Move through, and since he had 75% Dam 
>>>Reduction Phy you can guess what his favorite attack was....I think he 
>>>tried to buy a 90 pt HA as well (+30 dice), but I'm SURE I shot that one 
>>>down.... 
>> 
>>it just looks like a solid combat style to me. . . . but maybe i'm mad? 
> 
>  Fine- but 28 dice in a campaign where the attack range is SUPPOSED to be 
>12-15 dice is a bit much don't you think? (and he was trying to get that HA 
>for a total of 58 dice!) 
> 
 
then why didn't you step in? and if you did, why even mention it??? 
 
 
>>>  Never should have allowed the character in the first place.... but 
>>>sometimes things do get past me.... 
>>> 
>> 
>>imhho. .. . it is always better to err on the "give the players the 
>characters they want  
>>side of your instincts, at least in hero. . .  
> 
>  IMHO- yer nuts...  Giving my players what they want (at least that group) 
>turned the campaign into a never-ending Power Escalation war with NO 
>role-playing.  But if you have a better class of player than i did. more 
>power to you - me I'll stick to the lower point totals where it's harder to 
>build the truly obscene characters... (not impossible - just harder).... 
> 
 
i said *err*, not "aquiese"!!! role playing does not come from a dictitorial GM  
style. giving the players the most versatile sytem in the world, useing a superheroic  
setting,  and expecting them play average characters- that's nut. power has noting  
to do with real roleplaying, only how obidient the players have to be to your pre-set plot. 
 
From: BeerCarboy@aol.com 
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 03:31:25 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Code vs Killing 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 5 
 
Some thoughts about Code vs Killing itself: 
 
The 20pt sample in the BBB states that it is a Common situation and a total 
commitment, the total commitment is pretty self-explanatory but I am not at 
all sure why it is considered Common rather than Uncommon or Very Common. 
 After all given the activity heroes engage in killing seems to be an option 
almost all the time, on the other hand heinous acts deserving of summary 
execution are pretty rare.  Be that as it may, I am willing to accept that 
the BBB is gospel and that therefore ANY Code vs. Killing is Common.  That's 
10 pts, everything else depends upon commitment.  Total commitment, this is a 
character who will not use a 10d or greater attack on someone whose defenses 
they are unfamiliar with and will take any risk to save lives no matter what 
the cost; one of the more interesting dilemmas for this character to find 
herself in is one where no matter what she does someone will die.  Strong 
commitment, this is a character who will go to irrational extremes to avoid 
killing someone but will take more risks than the total commitment character 
and may be more tolerant of people dying for reasons not related to the 
characters actions.  Moderate commitment, still does not kill when there are 
other options, but will bite the bullet in extreme cases and kill. 
  But that's all mechanics, what does the Code vs. Killing mean for an 
individual character.  In the comics its all fairly vague, for example did 
Superman really have a Code vs. Killing back in the Seventies or was it 
simply that with all his powers he always had another option?  Supes 
certainly has a Code vs. Killing now, but how about what he did to Doomsday? 
 What level would his Code vs. Killing be at?  Batman is a different matter. 
 He has killed in the early days and has since explicitly stated he will not 
do so again, and he has held to that in some fairly extreme circumstances 
(given the means and the opportunity I would kill the Joker without a moment 
of hesitation, whenever Bats doesn't I think his code borders on the 
immoral), but what about in the heat of battle?  Bats I thinks risks killing 
people fairly often in combat situations, and probably has little choice 
about since his powers are very limited compared to actual supers.  OIn the 
Marvel side (before they got too confused about the difference between heroes 
and villains) you have similar things.  Daredevil did not kill Bullseye after 
the death of Electra, but do I really believe that he judged the result of 
what he did to Bullseye so closely that it wasn't an attempt at killing him? 
 Or what about what about what Spiderman did to what's his name that serial 
killer who killed his cop friend?  Surely it was only luck that kept that man 
alive.  Or when they claimed that Captain America had never killed anybody 
before the incident where he shot the terrorist (which struck me as 
incredibly dumb since given all we know about Cap he could certainly have 
THROWN the gun instead). 
      The fact is that I think every character in the comic books who 
apparently has decided to never kill has an inordinate about of providence to 
help them maintain that standard.  Everyone of them has taken actions that 
could have resulted in a foe dying.  Basically, I think all they really 
adhere to is a standard of not executing criminals and the rest of the time 
they let the chips land where they may. 
    So they real guideline has to be the character's own motivation for 
having a CVK.  Obviously this is a Common, strong commitment but why does he 
have it?  What makes him so adverse to killing the scum he fights?  Determine 
that and you have a handle on how to make his own CVK stop his hand.  Also, 
it seems to me that you and the other characters are intervening far too 
much.  After all, his comments might be part of an interior dialogue as his 
character struggles to reign in his desire to kill, and even if he makes a 
statement aloud does it make sense for a teammate to overhear it in combat 
and break off in order to reprimand him?  Let him go about and when he 
actually commits to pulling the trigger hit him ith the ego roll and with the 
rationale behind his CVK.  If he makes the ego roll, and chooses to fire then 
he fires; but, maybe, if you want to maintain the four color flavor of your 
campaign it may be necessary for you to let him be lucky and have his target 
survive.  Perhaps the character should be horribly maimed and he will have to 
live with what he tried to do to that person.  You could have this be the 
incident that reforms the character he tried to kill, she become a good guy 
and he has to live the fact that he almost killed someone who has 
accomplished a lot of good; or alternatively, you could have the maimed 
villain become embittered by this experience and become much more ruthless 
and evil and the hero will have to live with his responsibility for setting 
that off.  Or if the villain dies, well surely you can come up with your own 
version of hell for the character, try running a few nightmares without 
telling the player that that is what you are doing, maybe . . . 
 
Carter Humphrey 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
                                                           BeerCarboy@AOL.com 
 
From: S McGinness <smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk> 
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 08:41:07 GMT 
Subject: Heroes in the Courtroom (was: Code vs killing) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 6 
 
 
Mike Sprague <sprague@com.VivaNET> 
>The whole next gaming session was spent in court.  One of the players 
>(the slimy power gamer :-) got to play her lawyer.  I gave him a bunch 
>of info I have from various books on law and penalties for crimes.  I 
>played the DA and the jury.  Each of the PC's got to take the stand and 
>tell what they saw happen, along with other hostile and friendly 
>witnesses. 
 
I used this kind of tactic in a general situation where the heroes 
were present during the death of a VIPER agent. It was a major scrap 
and the agent was the victim of a collapsing tunnel, the heroes were 
aware that someone had perhaps died but had no chance of doing anything 
about it. One of the characters howevr was called Mercenary and had 
a huge reputation as ruthless and he used a BIG gun. 
 
I left the death for two scenarios and then, at the end of the second 
the session finished with a police delegation coming to the base. When 
the policeman asked Mercenary if he was who he claimed he was and 
whether he had taken part in the raid on the VIPER base he was thinking 
he was going to be commended publicly (sp?). Instead he got read his 
rights and asked to attend court charged with murder in the first degree. 
 
Now obviously it was a frame, but after the time that had passed they 
weren't a hundred percent sure that Mercenary hadn't actually caused 
the cave-in or whether one of his shots had actually killed someone, 
he often came close to it. I wanted to make him think more about the 
whole issue. 
 
>I told them that the outcome would depend on their putting together a 
>good defense.  They did a good job, and made heavy use of the facts that 
>the deceased was a criminal who did fire her weapon (self defense), and 
>that the explosion was what actually killed the NPC. 
 
Well, I carried out the whole bit. I cross questioned the characters 
and the accused, and it was excellent when some carefully phrased 
questions caused the players to have some screaming arguments 
which had to be squelched by the court!! :-) 
 
>They managed to sway the jury their way, and the assault charges were 
>dropped, but that character then had to go in for a psych analysis and 
>do some time in the "mutant Research Institute." 
 
At the end of the day, I asked the player of the accused character 
to leave the room and the rest of the players (whilst only 4 or 5 
ever usually played at any one time there were around 9 in the 
group, all nine came for the trial!) were to be the jury. They 
were given 10 minutes to argue and decide on a verdict. When it 
came to a vote Mercenary squeezed through on the narrowest of margins, 
then i told them that Death Commando (my own version and Mercenaries 
Hunted) had mind controlled them to vote guilty as charged!!! What a 
cheer there was, Mercenary's player returned and was read the death 
penalty to his unbelieving face!! He was of course later vindicated 
and rescued from the death sentence but it was a close run thing. 
 
>NONE of the players what to go through this again, and have been much 
>more careful since. 
 
Ditto 
 
>                    ~ Mike 
 
 
Stephen McGinness 
 
From: ErolB1@aol.com 
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 07:11:51 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: nonstandard settings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Status:  
X-UID: 7 
 
I've only used HERO for "straight" 4-color superheroes (so far, at least), 
but I've done a few "weird" things with other systems (or other non-systems): 
 
1. When I was in college, mumble years ago, we often ran characters (or 
ourselves as characters) through freeform dimension-hopping trips. I remember 
one time when I ran such a session and had the characters appear in the dorm 
room where we were playing. The catch was that the characters were shrunk to 
less than 2 mm tall... 
 
2. I'll include various oddball touches in my "normal" campaigns. Like the 
gods having all died a thousand years ago in my fantasy world of Etan. The 
current religions in the campaign all arose from cults that proported to 
explain "what do we do now?" when the gods died. (The various answers 
include: "Keep worshiping the ghosts of the gods", "The Emperor of the South 
is the True Heir of the gods - everyone should worship *him*", "This world is 
but a womb; when you die, you get reborn into the *real* world and can then 
begin your *real* life", "The Hand of Fate is mighter than the gods ever 
were; one should worship it and submit to ones fate", "The great gods never 
were very important to the lives of ordinary people; it's the minor godlings 
and tribal totems (who continue to exist) that one should worry about" and 
"The gods are dead; religion & piety are obsolete." 
 
3. Several years ago, I saw one too many cheap tv-science fiction 
"matriarchies" based on simple-minded role-reversal (women acting like men in 
all ways and vice versa), In response I wrote up (& submitted) a world for 
the GURPS Space Atlas series: Home, a matriarchy world "done right." On Home, 
the men are masculine and the women are feminine, with just enough changes in 
the stereotypes to keep the women in charge. (E.g. on Home, "everyone knows" 
that men are more beastial and emotional than women, and that women are 
smarter and more rational than men. Or if Home had an army, it wouldn't be an 
all-female army as per a "standard" matriarchy. Instead, the men would all be 
grunts and the women would make up the officer corps.) 
 
4. In response to some of the "women in gaming" arguments, I've half-created 
a couple of "anti-feminist" campaigns. The first one is based on John 
Norman's *GOR* novels. ("If you think that that other GM was hostile to 
women, you should see *this* campaign.") The other setting is one where the 
PC's are all concubines and eunichs in the harem of a mythical sultan. ("You 
said you wanted a setting that was low on combat and high on social & 
pollitical interplay, and that had lots of opportunities to play female 
characters. Doesn't this fit what you said you wanted?") 
 
[DISCLAIMER & FLAME-BAIT: I am not against 'women in gaming.' I don't think 
it's acceptable to pick on a player (or on her character) because she's a 
woman. But I do think that gaming is inherently masculine - full of "boy 
stuff" - and that women should accept it on those terms. IMHO it's better for 
women to use RPGs to get in touch with their 'inner amazon' or 'inner tomboy' 
rather than to try to change the games into something more 'feminine' or 
'feminist'.] 
 
5. One variant on 4-color superheroes that I've considered (but never set up) 
is an interstellar campaign set in the Andromeda galaxy a million years in 
the future - with the players playing agumented versions of themselves. The 
backstory is that they were going about their ordinary business on Earth when 
they were suddenly hit by a blinding white light. The next thing they know, 
they wake up with powers & augmented abilities from stasis pods in a giant, 
abandoned, half-wrecked starship. They had been kidnapped from Earth by 
interstellar raiders, and now find themselves in the Andromeda galaxy a 
million years after the 20th century.  
 
Erol K. Bayburt 
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow 
 
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:34:14 -0500 
From: Jerry & Jamie Nealis <jnealis@OnRamp.NET> 
Reply-To: jnealis@OnRamp.NET 
Subject: Advanced STR Chart 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 8 
 
During our last gaming session one of my fellow players (playing the 
team brick) used a baseball to take out a VIPER agent. The GM converted 
the Bricks STR to an EB and added 1D6 for the ball. (12D6 EB) Needless 
to say it worked. 
 
But this got me to thinking, I remember seeing some kind of STR chart 
for Throwing  Distances and Damages for smaller items..... like what STR 
it would take to put a 2 kilo object into orbit..... that sort of thing. 
 
Does anybody else recall this chart? If so could you please tell me 
where I could find a copy? I think it would be a useful tool for later 
games......plus just think of a Professional Baseball pitcher with a 40 
STR. ;) 
 
Thanx in advance 
 
Jerry 
aka Puzzleboy--Foxbat's Best Friend 
 
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 09:20:51 -0500 
From: Alex Rojas <rojasa@uthscsa.edu> 
Subject: RE: CHAR: Popinjay (revised) 
X-Sender: rojasa@arwen.uthscsa.edu 
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>> It's been a while since I read them also, but I thought that he 
telported Ti 
>> Malice to the moon.  And the fact that Jay had never been to the moon, is 
>>what made the teleport seem strange. 
>>  
 
> 
> Ok, i have to ask this: 
> 
>*WHY* did you think he was sent to the moon?? 
> 
> I mean Ti Malice being put in with the joker babies makes some sense, 
>but i cant think of any connection between the moon and Jays nightmares 
>[well, except they both were observed while jay was asleep 8P] 
> 
> Not having a go, just curious?? 
 
No problem :)   
 
In most of his dreams, Jay would look at the moon, then say something like, 
"don't look at it again or it will get you."  then he would describe the 
monster.  If I remember correctly, he mentions the moon when Ti Malice is 
crawling towards him.   
 
I thought Jay associated the creature with the moon.  I saw the joker 
babies as only a comparison or a description.  And I never even considered 
that he could send the creature to an abstract place like a dream. 
 
That's my spin on things. 
 
 
Alex 
RojasA@uthscsa.edu 
 
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:46:04 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Loophole 
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On Sun, 15 Jun 1997 BeerCarboy@aol.com wrote: 
 
> Isn't this the guy who creates the jumpers via buggery?  How about showing us 
> THAT power?  Talk about expensive . . . 
 
This is the pre-'jumpers' Loophole.  There is a version that can create 
jumpers out on the Unoffical Champions Character Archive.   
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Subject: High Power Campaigns 
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 11:36:57 -0400 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: "David A. Fair" <DFair@sdslink.com> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 11 
 
>       It would be nice to see how character are actually constructed 
>       for a _good_ well run high powered game.  Most people/groups I 
>       know of start with lower powered characters (225 or 250 pts) 
>       and I have rarely seen a game go past 50 Exp or so before the 
>       GM get's bored and kills the game. 
 
Some general rules from my "Galactic Centurians" campaign (150/150 to  
start, up to 550-800 towards the end). 
Note: The players played a group of heroes dedicated to fighting the evil  
Skordian Empire, (and their attempted destruction of the Terran Republic)  
and securing peace and safety in their Sector (which they were also  
responsible for charting and exploring). They regularly encountered  
hostile worlds, Cosmic Entities, Stellar Phenomenon of Massive  
Destructiveness [tm], and fleets of InterGalactic Warships. This campaign  
started in '88 and ran until late '93. It broke up when I had to move  
from DC to Pittsburgh. Several of the players have experssed interest in  
reviving the campaign now that I'm back in the DC area. 
 
Ten rules for playing a Galactic Centurian 
1.  Multipowers are OK, all other frameworks are forbidden. 
2.  Main attack can be up to 90 Active, any secondary attacks can be up  
to  
    75 Active. 
3.  Primary Defenses should not go over 75 Active. (Note: most PC's have  
pd/ed  
    around 35-45 & some level of Damage Reduction) 
4.  Movement can be any level, but only combat speeds will help in combat  
    maneuvers (ie move through/by). 
5.  DEX should be less than 45 & SPD no higher than 8. (Note: most PC's  
average 
    around 35/6) 
6.  Life Support (vs. Vacumns, Heat/Cold, & breathing) MUST be purchased  
either  
    through innate ability or a focus/vehicle. FTL same as for Life  
Support. 
7.  Powers not in concept will be disallowed - concept comes first. 
8.  In this campaign, there will be no such thing as distinctive features  
(you  
    get used to odd looks easily in this galaxy), unless you are among  
the very 
    last members of an easily identified race (like Chewbacca in Star  
Wars) and 
    then you should take other appropriate lims as well (hunted,  
reputation,  
    psych lims, etc.). 
9.  No magic using characters (please!), any other concepts are OK.  
10. Remember - your team has to serve as interplanetary diplomats,  
explorers,  
    scientists, detectives/police officers, military advisors, and as  
    SuperHeroes. Be sure that you can function well in more than just one 
    of these areas, or you may feel left out very quickly. 
 
Hope This Helps! 
 
  .oooO        | 
  (   ) Oooo.  | David A. Fair 
   \ (  (   )  | SDS International 
    \_)  ) /   | dfair@sdslink.com 
        (_/    | 
 
Subject: Re: Code vs Killing 
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 11:57:39 -0400 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: "David A. Fair" <DFair@sdslink.com> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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On 6/15/97 2:12 AM, Todd Hanson (badtodd@dacmail.net) Said: 
 
[snip] 
> 
>Unfortunately the player doesn't see it this way.  He seems to think 
>because he only has a 15 point cvk (vs the 20 pt that most of the rest 
>of the team does) that he only has to follow the cvk... MOST of the 
>time.  Its become pretty clear that the player and I have different 
>views of what code vs killing means. 
> 
[snip] 
> 
>The obvious penalty is that future experience will be earmarked to 
>buying down his code vs killing.  But I wanted an 'in-game' penalty as 
>well.  How would the government (he is on an officially sponsored team 
>of the city of Chicago) deal with him?   
 
Have one of his teammates (preferably an NPC, or a good roleplayer) turn  
him in or attempt to arrest him for murder. Roleplay the trial and the  
conviction (all of his teammates will likely testify against him). He'll  
be retired. 
 
  .oooO        | 
  (   ) Oooo.  | David A. Fair 
   \ (  (   )  | SDS International 
    \_)  ) /   | dfair@sdslink.com 
        (_/    | 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Code vs Killing 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 16 Jun 1997 12:05:23 -0400 
Lines: 40 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "B" == BeerCarboy <BeerCarboy@aol.com> writes: 
 
B> The 20pt sample in the BBB states that it is a Common situation and a 
B> total commitment, the total commitment is pretty self-explanatory but I 
B> am not at all sure why it is considered Common rather than Uncommon or 
B> Very Common. 
 
When the villains are normals (ie, thugs and minions) an average 
superhero's full-power attacks definitely are lethal -- an 8D6 autofire 
energy blast may not sound like much, but three hits out of five will 
outright kill a normal person with 2-4 points of defense.  Normals involved 
in fights with superheros are a common occourance in four-color comics -- 
at the very least they make for convenient hostages and innocent 
bystanders.  The frequency level is based on that premise. 
 
[...] 
 
B>   But that's all mechanics, what does the Code vs. Killing mean for an 
B> individual character. 
 
It means that the character will consciously and actively avoid the use of 
lethal force. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should 
                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. 
 
Subject: Re: Related subject: 
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 12:26:37 -0400 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: "David A. Fair" <DFair@sdslink.com> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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On 6/15/97 10:16 AM, Earl Kwallek (earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us) Said: 
 
[snippage on characters generated by the patented Abuse-A-Matic Hero  
Generator] 
 
>  In short, these players designed a bunch of Combat-Killer-Death-Machines 
>rather than anything resembling real people... but then that seems to be 
>normal for the games I have run/played in.... 
>  Oh well.... 
 
So throw them into a mystery, or a diplomatic situation. Watch 'em  
squirm. Tell them that these kinds of plots are common, and they can redo  
their characters now, if they want, or never. 
 
  .oooO        | 
  (   ) Oooo.  | David A. Fair 
   \ (  (   )  | SDS International 
    \_)  ) /   | dfair@sdslink.com 
        (_/    | 
 
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:51:53 -0700 
From: "Capt. Spith" <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Related subject: 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Earl Kwallek sed; 
  
>   First I will tell you (in case you missed it) the level I was aiming for: 
>  
> Attack          60-75 APts 
> DEX                     20-25 
> SPD                     4-6             (Maybe a single 7+) 
> Def                     25-45 
>  
> The characters I got (I'm not going to post them all) not inclusing the 
> afformentioned BRICK.... 
>  
> Attack          2 at 90 AP, 2 at 80 AP, 1 at 75, 1 at 60 
>                         the guy with 60 had 18 different attack powers in a MP) 
>  
> DEX                     3 at 30, 2 at 28, 1 at 25 
>  
> SPD                     5 at 7, 1 at 6 
>  
> Defense         Not a single player BELOW the 45/45 PD/ED level 
>                         the lowest resistant Defense was 35/35 
>                         EVERYONE had Mental Defense 20+ 
>                         EVERYONE had Power Defense 15+ 
>                         EVERYONE had Flash Defense (Vision) of 5+ 
>                         4 (of 7 including brick) had other flash defense) 
>                         5 (of 7) had some level of Dam reduction 
>                         4 had Energy Absorbtion 
>  
>   In short, these players designed a bunch of Combat-Killer-Death-Machines 
> rather than anything resembling real people... but then that seems to be 
> normal for the games I have run/played in.... 
>   Oh well.... 
 
   This is the situation where you 'suddenly happen into' circumstances 
where non-combat skills and pure roleplaying/characterization is what's 
necessary to save the day. 
The villian has come up with a way to neutralize the heroes powers (or 
threaten reprecussions if they use them) so they have to ignore those 
300 points of combat aptitude and find something in their few remaining 
points to use... 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
X-Sender: travisf@mail.cei.net 
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 14:04:25 -0500 
From: Travis Foster <travisf@mail.cei.net> 
Subject: Re: High Power Campaigns 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 20 
 
Author unknown 
>       It would be nice to see how character are actually constructed 
>       for a _good_ well run high powered game.  Most people/groups I 
>       know of start with lower powered characters (225 or 250 pts) 
>       and I have rarely seen a game go past 50 Exp or so before the 
>       GM get's bored and kills the game. 
 
I was in a Fabtsay Hero campaign that started at 150 pts (75+75) that ended 
up at about 700 pts. We had NCM and few other restrictions. Most characters 
ended up with Magic VPP' 
s [the ones that didn't start as mages]. We also had several MPP's and EC's. 
The only power problems that we had were GM provided: he gave out 
progresively bigger magic items and had a house rule that Aids affected base 
points. When these combined into each character having 30-50 d6 of Aid to 
any and all magic spells the game broke down. We had no problems regarding 
having a lot of experience. 
 
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 15:15:10 -0400 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Stupid Mind Tricks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Status:  
X-UID: 24 
 
Hi Folks, 
I just discovered Champions recently, and am so far very impressed. 
It seems like almost any power is possible to build.  I'm stumped 
on a couple of psionic powers, though: 
- 
Psionic Surgery - A lengthy process (can take as long as a day or two 
for severe changes, less time for minor ones) where the target's per- 
sonality is reshaped to to psychic's whim.  This can add or remove 
psychological disadvantages, memories, etc.  The effects can be  
reversed by a friendly telepath or psychotherepist, given enough 
rehab time. 
- 
Possesion - Like mind control, but the character senses what the 
target would sense, and also has more detailed control over the 
target's actions. 
- 
Mind Swap - The character and the target swap bodies.  All physical 
traits and non-psychic powers are exchanged. 
- 
Also, how would one build a shrinking power where strength, movement 
rates, and vulnerability to attack all change in proportion to the 
character's new size?  Would it be reasonable to do this with side 
effects? 
- 
Any ideas?  Apologies if these questions have been answered a cagillion 
times, but I'm new to this list :-). 
- 
Eric 
 
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 15:17:27 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Cpt. Angela Ellis 
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CAPTAIN ANGELA ELLIS 
 
Designers Notes: 
Captain Ellis is Korean woman who stands 5'1" with long black hair and 
green eyes.  Adopted by a US Army officer, she was raised an 'army brat' 
and shows little interest in her Asian origins.  She is a committed police 
officer and is very honest in operations, observing the proper legalities 
and not allowing any one to cross the line.  She is a workaholic, smokes 
constantly (and coughs because of it), drinks coffee like it was water, 
studies kenpo karate, is an excellent shot and was wounded in the line of 
duty.  Her precinct is popularly called "Ft. Freak" and Ellis has to live 
with the knowledge that the previous two precinct captains were both 
murdered (and that one was an flunky of the Astronomer). 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		10		0 
Dex		18		24 
Con		13		6 
Body		13		6 
Int		14		4 
Ego		18		16 
Pre		15		5 
Com		12		1 
PD		4		2 
ED		3		0 
Spd		3		2 
Rec		5		0 
End		26		0 
Stun		25		0 
Char Total			66 
Power Total			77 
Total Cost			143 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
	MA: Kenpo Karate 
4	Block  +2 OCV  +2 DCV  Block, Abort 
4	Disarm  -1 OCV  +1 DCV  20 STR Disarm 
4	Dodge  +0 OCV  +5 DCV  Dodge vs All, Abort 
3	Legsweep  +2 OCV  -1 DCV  3d6 Strike; Target falls 
4	Punch/Snap Kick  +0 OCV  +2 DCV  4d6 Strike 
 
2	Perk: Local Police Powers 
2	Perk: Weapon Permit 
3	Breakfall 13- 
5	Bureaucratics 13- 
7	Criminology 14- 
7	Deduction 14-  
3	Interrogation 12- 
5	KS: Kenpo Karate 14- 
5	KS: Criminal Law and Procedure 14- 
2	PS: Police Officer 11- 
3	Streetwise 12- 
2	WF: Nightstick, Pistol 
9	CSL: +3  with Pistols 
3	CSL: +1 with Kenpo  
 
Disadvantages 
75	Base 
5	DF: NYPD Police Officer 
3	Package Bonus (Police) 
10	Psych: Addicted to cigarettes, chain smokes 
15	Psych: Honest cop who does things "by the book" 
10	Psych: Workaholic who drinks far to much coffee 
10	Watched: NYPD 8- 
15	Captain of Ft. Freak bonus 
 
(Angela Ellis created by [unknown], character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 15:23:20 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Karvey Kant 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 19 
 
DETECTIVE SECOND GRADE HARVEY KANT 
 
Designers Notes: 
Kant is only one of two joker officers in the entire NYPD.  The other is 
Sgt Mole, in the Jokertown precinct records division.  Kant is 5'8", with 
a brown lizard-like body, sharp teeth and nictating membranes over his 
eyes.  He is very fast and very strong (for a human) and is known to be 
very tough.  He usually plays the precinct 'bad cop'.  He's won several 
citations for bravery, shot a few people (killing some) and been shot 
himself.   
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		18		8 
Dex		20		30 
Con		18		16 
Body		14		8 
Int		11		1 
Ego		11		2 
Pre		18		8 
Com		8		-1 
PD		4		0 
ED		4		0 
Spd		3		0 
Rec		8		0 
End		36		0 
Stun		32		0 
Char Total			72 
Power Total			54 
Total Cost			126 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
15	Armor: DEF 5 
 
2	Perk: Local Police Powers 
2	Perk: Weapon Permit 
5	AK: Jokertown 14- 
3	Bureaucratics 13- 
7	Criminology 13- 
3	Deduction 11- 
2	KS: Criminal Law and Procedure 11- 
2	PS: Police Officer 11- 
5	Streetwise 14- 
2	WF: Nightstick, Pistol 
6	CSL: +2 with Block, Grab, Punch 
 
Disadvantages 
75	Base 
5	DF: NYPD Police Officer 
10	DF: Bown humanoid lizard with no scales or hair 
3	Package Bonus (Police) 
15	Psych: Not afraid to use physical force 
10	Rep: Tough cop who' not afrid to get physical 11- 
10	Watched: NYPD 8- 
 
(Harvey Kant created by Walter Jon Williams, character sheet created by 
Michael Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 15:39:42 -0400 
From: geoff@omg.org (Geoffrey Speare) 
Subject: Stupid Mind Tricks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Status:  
X-UID: 22 
 
 
>   Psionic Surgery - A lengthy process (can take as long as a day or two 
>   for severe changes, less time for minor ones) where the target's per- 
>   sonality is reshaped to to psychic's whim.  This can add or remove 
>   psychological disadvantages, memories, etc.  The effects can be  
>   reversed by a friendly telepath or psychotherepist, given enough 
>   rehab time. 
 
This is easy to do, but hard to do in fine detail without invoking GM 
discretion. I would use Transformation (and have it work against EGO 
& Mental Defense rather than CON/Power Defense as a special effect), 
with a Limitation "requires extra time based on degree of change".  
 
>   - 
>   Possesion - Like mind control, but the character senses what the 
>   target would sense, and also has more detailed control over the 
>   target's actions. 
 
You can build this with Mind Control (Telepathic) and Clairsentience 
(only through victim). You can also use the optional Spirit Rules 
(which can be found in Horror Hero or the Hero System Almanac); 
however, see below for a commentary on those rules. 
 
>   Mind Swap - The character and the target swap bodies.  All physical 
>   traits and non-psychic powers are exchanged. 
 
You could do this with Transformation, but I would be more inclined to 
use the Spirit Rules. 
 
The Spirit Rules provide a good way to handle a number of supernatural 
and mind based effects that the basic rules aren't as good at. 
However, those rules do have a couple problems: 1) They tend to treat 
Spirits as a special effect completely separate from the rest of the 
Hero System (for example, Affects Spirits is a separate Advantage 
which completely mirrors the Affects Desolid Advantage); 2) they tend 
to create new powers rather than use old ones (Create Spirit, etc. all 
could be done with the existing powers). As a new GM, you might want 
to not use these rules until you have a better grip on the Hero System. 
 
>   Also, how would one build a shrinking power where strength, movement 
>   rates, and vulnerability to attack all change in proportion to the 
>   character's new size?  Would it be reasonable to do this with side 
>   effects? 
 
Side Effects would be reasonable; another way would be to put a 
limitation on STR, movement, etc. "reduced as character Shrinks". If 
this was a power you were going to use on someone else, you'd have to 
use a Drain or Suppress, I think.  
 
Geoff Speare 
 
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 13:00:18 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Stupid Mind Tricks 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 17 
 
Eric Burns writes: 
> I just discovered Champions recently, and am so far very impressed. 
> It seems like almost any power is possible to build.  I'm stumped 
> on a couple of psionic powers, though: 
> - 
> Psionic Surgery - A lengthy process (can take as long as a day or two 
> for severe changes, less time for minor ones) where the target's per- 
> sonality is reshaped to to psychic's whim.  This can add or remove 
> psychological disadvantages, memories, etc.  The effects can be  
> reversed by a friendly telepath or psychotherepist, given enough 
> rehab time. 
Transform, based on ECV.  Alternately, extremely large quantities of mind 
control, or a combination of ego drain and mind control.  This is one of those 
powers which you may not wish a player to possess; in the case of an NPC, 
exactly how it works is generally irrelevant. 
 
> Possesion - Like mind control, but the character senses what the 
> target would sense, and also has more detailed control over the 
> target's actions. 
Classic 'no such power' power in champions.  Closest version is probably 
telepathic mind control plus clairsentience based on ECV linked to the mind 
control.  
 
> Mind Swap - The character and the target swap bodies.  All physical 
> traits and non-psychic powers are exchanged. 
Transform based on ECV, with a side effect that the person transformed gets 
your body.  Best used as a GM-only plot device, however, as it is more or less 
guaranteed to be unbalanced. 
 
> Also, how would one build a shrinking power where strength, movement 
> rates, and vulnerability to attack all change in proportion to the 
> character's new size?  Would it be reasonable to do this with side 
> effects? 
'limited power: strength, move, etc, change in proportion to...'.  Basing the 
limitation value on side effects is about right, however. 
 
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 13:18:38 -0700 
From: "Capt. Spith" <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Code vs Killing[LONG] 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Status:  
X-UID: 16 
 
Doc sez... 
 
>      Ah, the interesting problem that every GM must contend with at some 
> point in their campaign is how to handle PCs with Code vs Killing.  There 
> have been a few article written on this subject, but none left me feeling 
> that they gave a good answer.  I ran into this problem shortly after I 
> started GMing in 1981.  What follows isn't an absolute answer but simply 
> observations from my campaigns. 
    
   (...Not an absolute answer, but simply an observation from his 
campaigns...) 
  
 
>      * Point One:  NEVER force the character/player to do or not do 
> something.* 
  (...) 
>      *Point Two:  Let the other players in the campaign lead on issues that 
> could be disruptive the game.  The GM then acts arbitor and peacemaker.* 
   (...)  
>      *Point Three:  While the GM has the right to the campaign ethics, they 
> shouldn't be used as a sledgehammer.  Player should be free to act as they 
> feel, but they must understand their may be consequences involved.  State 
> this to all players new and old.* 
   (...) 
>      *Point Four:  Give the player the benfit of the doubt to be able to play 
> the Disad.  If they can't handle it, just let them try something else with no 
> recriminations.* 
   (...) 
 
>      *Point Five:  A Character Disad that isn't a problem is worth no 
> points.* 
   (...) 
 
>      More recently, I've begun handling how CvKs of differing values are 
> treated.  A Code vs Killing is now defined as being unable to use lethal 
> force or tactics against an opponent that MAY not be able to take it.  This 
> means that PCs can use differing force levels against opponents if they know 
> their targets possible ability to survive the attack or action. 
   (....) 
 
   First of all, Doc, I never tire of your eloquent and well thought 
postings on gaming philosophy. 
 
   Now, then; 
 
   I always consider the totality of a CVK disad as well as its 
specifics.  A 20 point disad should be as limiting as any other 20 point 
disad, i.e.; 20 points of Accidental Change will happen almost every 
campaign with a <11 chance or about half the time with a <14 chance; 20 
points of Distinctive features will have somebody react poorly to them 
every game, or be concealed only with effort (making the effort being 
limiting in the characters actions), and otherwise cause extreme 
reactions; a 20 point reputation means 3/4 of the people will know your 
rep., and it is an extreme one.   Thus a 20 point Code vs. Killing 
should almost always affect the character to some degree. 
   As for the specifics, frequency applies to the frequency of 
_concern_over_killing_, not just how often the hero is fighting; if 
Captainman regularly battles demigods, it's unlikely he's concerned that 
they may die or get maimed, but Captainman's sidekick Privateboy often 
fights street thugs, and the level of lethality is much more of a 
concern.  A CVK's frequency should also apply to how often the character 
is concerned about his/her teammates using lethal force.  Commitment is 
more straightforward; how strongly does the hero (antihero?) wish not to 
kill.  Characters with a CVK due to obligation or onus, and not of their 
own personal beliefs, should never take a total commitment on this 
disad. 
 
   Additionally, thr role-playing aspect should always be considered; a 
*character* who continually camplains about not being allowed to use 
lethal force probably should find a different kind of psych lim, or at 
least limit it to 10 points, since that kind of 'code' is as little as 
wanting to avoid being arrested for murder (or manslaughter, I guess.) 
 
   I have always enjoyed playing CVKs as I enjoy the 'ultrahero' style, 
and in a number of games, My character (Capt. Spith, in fact) would get 
involved in heated arguements with another (an anti-terrorist, who liked 
to kill terrorists) until we had to be dampened down by the GM and/or 
other players to continue with the game.  12 (game) years later, the two 
had a love affair based of mutual respect; the two dichotomous beliefs 
were played very sincerely, as core beliefs, and both characters had to 
begrudge the other his/her altruism. 
   In an amusing twist (before the affair), Capt. Spith's CVK actually 
had him screaming for the execution of a certain nasty;  After a 
multi-session epic, we had finally captured a major shadowy villian 
whom, we discovered, was immortal (or at least semi-immortal) and had 
become an assasin for around a thousand years, simply to alleviate the 
boredom of immortality.  In my opinion, a full commitment code vs. 
killing left no option but to sacrifice the one to save hundreds or 
more.  Based on the villian's power level, there was effectively no 
other way to contain or stop him.  And it was the anti-terrorist killer 
who was the leading voice against Capt. Spith, though I don't remember 
the specific reason, but at the time, this peculiar role-reversal made 
perfect sense to everyone. 
 
   Umm... I guess I kind of went off for a bit there... Did that help 
any? 
    
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 13:32:43 -0700 
From: "Capt. Spith" <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Code vs Killing 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 26 
 
Todd sez; 
>  
> looking for a bit of advice.. 
>  
> How do other GMs handle a character who has code vs killing.. and kills? 
>  
> Let me point out up front - this hasn't happened.. YET.  But I'm 
> expecting it to. 
 
> So.. assuming the inevitable happens, how should I handle it?  I don't 
> really want to turn it into a big confrontation (besides gaming with 
> him, I have to work with him), but I don't intend to let him get by with 
> it either. 
>  
> The obvious penalty is that future experience will be earmarked to 
> buying down his code vs killing.  But I wanted an 'in-game' penalty as 
> well.  How would the government (he is on an officially sponsored team 
> of the city of Chicago) deal with him? 
 
   One option is to make sure that, once he decides to go over that 
boundary, somebody attempts to save the villian, or stop the 'hero', so 
that an 'innocent' gets hurt/killed instead.  Possibly a dear one.  Also 
keep in mind the idea of simply transmuting the disad into a hunted or 
equally negative disad, based on the character's lack of restraint (or 
totally unrelated for that matter).  It should be YOUR choice of disad, 
however, since the point was a CVK=bonus to MAX char points. 
   However, be sure to make it clear to the player beforehand what your 
intentions are, whatever they may be.  GM-player confrontation is always 
tough, but nasty (though fair) reprecussions without warning are much 
harder on the relationship.  Definitely let your player know your 
concerns and planned reprecussions.  They may be poorly received and/or 
ignored, but at least in that instance, the animosity will have 
originated from the player, and not from you.  Yeah, that sounds like a 
downer, but rule 2 is; always be prepared for the worst.  (Rule 1 is 
always be prepared for the best - they're both necessary, and both have 
caused problems when not followed....) 
 
   ---- 
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 14:00:41 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions: New Millenium 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 25 
 
At 02:05 PM 6/12/97 +0000, Shawn Lockard wrote: 
>Hi. I am new to Champions, specifically starting with New Millenium.  
>I bought Champions (3rd?) edition and some other books that go with  
>it at discount, but never got to read them. Fuzion sounded  
>interesting, and I am a fan of things Super, so I decided to get it. 
> 
>To make a long email shorter, i subscribed here to learn about C:NM  
>and see what Champions fans thought of it, but  I haven't even seen  
>it mentioned.SO I am curious... is it that bad? 
 
   Not quite so much that, as this is technically the wrong list. 
   Most of the people here still play 4th edition Champions, which is based 
on the Hero System. 
   What I think you'll want is the Fuzion mailing list.  To subscribe, send 
mail to fuzion-request@pjh.org 
   Oh, and if you're a fan of all things Super, you might want to look into 
HeroZine, a fanzine for all superhero role-playing games.  If you're 
interested, take a look at its website at: 
   http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
   Have fun!   :-] 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 14:00:42 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Code vs Killing 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 27 
 
At 01:12 AM 6/15/97 -0500, Todd Hanson wrote: 
>One of my players has a code vs killing. Kind of my own fault - in order 
>to promote more of a 'four color' feel to my game, I started my players 
>at 275 pts, and let them take any points taken as 'code vs killing' as 
>bonus points.  I have a feeling that THIS player took the disad just for 
>the points. 
> 
>He hasn't actually killed YET, but there are several times (especially 
>when losing) where he has threatened to pull out his 'big gun' (his 4d6 
>RKA) against villians/agents who obviously have little or no resistant 
>defenses (usually with comments along the lines of 'as pissed off as I 
>am at this guy, I dont care if I kill him!').  So far his teammates (who 
>also all have cvk) have held him back, but (as I've discussed with the 
>player), his OWN code vs killing should be holding him back. 
> 
>Unfortunately the player doesn't see it this way.  He seems to think 
>because he only has a 15 point cvk (vs the 20 pt that most of the rest 
>of the team does) that he only has to follow the cvk... MOST of the 
>time.  Its become pretty clear that the player and I have different 
>views of what code vs killing means. 
> 
>So.. assuming the inevitable happens, how should I handle it?  I don't 
>really want to turn it into a big confrontation (besides gaming with 
>him, I have to work with him), but I don't intend to let him get by with 
>it either. 
> 
>The obvious penalty is that future experience will be earmarked to 
>buying down his code vs killing.  But I wanted an 'in-game' penalty as 
>well.  How would the government (he is on an officially sponsored team 
>of the city of Chicago) deal with him? 
 
   (I've read only a few of the responses so far, but here's my input:) 
   At this stage, he's only threatened.  If he's on an officially sponsored 
team, then his supervisor should have a stern talk with him.  How this goes 
should depend on the character's reaction; likely possibilities include: 
   "You've been acting real threatening with that big gun of yours.  Tone it 
down, or you're off the team." 
   "Look, this is a major problem, both legally and in PR.  If you ever 
actually do kill someone, this city's going to have a helluva lawsuit on its 
hands, and I doubt we could defend ourselves." 
   "Listen, Mister.  This is a government outfit, and we play by the rules, 
*period.*" 
   Or, if he really mouths off, it might not be inappropriate for the super 
to fire him on the spot. 
   Also, remind the player that a 15pt CVK doesn't mean that he'll gladly 
kill someone if he gets really pissed.  That falls more on the Casual Killer 
side of things.  Dark Champions has descriptions of what certain levels of 
CVK mean; use that as a guideline, and let the player know that you'll be 
enforcing it.  (As I recall, CVK15 is basically "will kill in 
self-defense.")  In other words, every time he acts like that (which is 
technically "out of character" for a CVK15 character), he gets docked an 
experience point for poor role-playing. 
   Then, if the character ever does actually kill in cold blood, you should 
let him face the consequences.  Since he apparently never really had a CVK, 
he loses that Disad, and it's replaced by something else.  He may get a 
warrant put out for his arrest, the aforementioned lawsuit, and other stuff 
that folks have mentioned thus far.  (But, of course, let the player know 
ahead of time that that's what the character will be facing in that 
circumstance; that's what the little meeting with the supervisor is supposed 
to do.  That way he can't complain that he didn't know!) 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:22:33 +1000 
From: Steven Clark <nahema@mailbox.uq.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Stupid Mind Tricks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 28 
 
Eric Burns wrote: 
>  
> Hi Folks, 
> I just discovered Champions recently, and am so far very impressed. 
> It seems like almost any power is possible to build.  I'm stumped 
> on a couple of psionic powers, though: 
> - 
> Psionic Surgery - A lengthy process (can take as long as a day or two 
> for severe changes, less time for minor ones) where the target's per- 
> sonality is reshaped to to psychic's whim.  This can add or remove 
> psychological disadvantages, memories, etc.  The effects can be 
> reversed by a friendly telepath or psychotherepist, given enough 
> rehab time. 
 
This is mentioned in the Ultimate Mentalist. I think they do it with  
a cumulative tranformation... invisible continuous etc 
> - 
> Possesion - Like mind control, but the character senses what the 
> target would sense, and also has more detailed control over the 
> target's actions. 
> - 
I'd do this as a Mind Control, but with a mind link or telepathy to 
the target. You could put a limitation on the Mind Link so that you 
have feedback (take any damage the target takes) if you wish. I'd 
also put a limitation on the Mind Control that it only works while 
the Mind Link is active, and that it is O DCV concentration throughout. 
(This means you'd be unaware of anything around you while you were  
posessing someone else) 
 
> Mind Swap - The character and the target swap bodies.  All physical 
> traits and non-psychic powers are exchanged. 
> - 
This was covered in the Spirit Rules in Adventurers Club... Also in  
Heroic Adventures volume 1 they have a character who uses this power, 
but it is a special power in itself, although you could get the same  
effects from a transform with side effects, so it transforms both you 
and the victim simultaneously.  
 
 
Steven 
 
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 22:06:40 -0500 (UTC -05:00) 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU 
From: kevinc@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU (Kevin R. Criscione) 
Subject: GENCON scenario 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 29 
 
For those of you going to GENCON, I would like to post the following 
announcement for the game I am running this year. (For those of you not 
interested, I apologize for the bandwidth.) 
 
 
Adventure Games: Hero 4th Edition 
 
400232 TS Omega 3 
 
[StarHero] A request for help from an old friend sends a vacationing Omega 
Team to an orbital casino where all is not fun and games. One round, six 
players per game. 
 
Slots 02, 06, 10; Location: D08--MECCA Auditorium, Deep Labyrinth 
 
 
   This is a game set in a future space opera genre universe. The PCs are a 
group of Heroic level characters (equipment, skills, some minor innate 
abilities) who are employed as troubleshooters by a corporation 
specializing in solving problems. 
 
 
Hope to see some of you at GENCON, 
 
 
 
Kevin Criscione 
kevinc@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu 
 
 
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:27:44 -0400 
From: Dave Thompson <ezadd@bconnex.net> 
Subject: Re: Code vs Killing 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 30 
 
Todd Hanson wrote: 
 
> Well, if this character decides to take the step over the edge, there 
> WILL be campaign consequences.. and his character WILL get the spotlight 
> for awhile.. although I don't know how much he's going to enjoy it  ;) 
  <edit> 
> Any other ideas, or problems with the above? 
  
        Todd how about the fact that this character will be forever 
changed in 
the eyes of his peers. Especially those with a total CVK. And lots not 
forget those vigilantes who may now see him/her as one of the bad guys! 
Lots of possibilities for making the character's life hell! 
 
EZ 
 
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:39:09 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Digger Downs 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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DIGGER DOWNS 
(Thomas Downs) 
 
Designers Notes: 
Digger is over average size, 5'10" and 150 lbs.  He has brown hair and 
brown eyes.  He is a reporter for Aces Magazine, and a more pushy, 
obnoxious 'news-hound' you will never meet.  His ace powers is the ability 
to smell aces, detecting them by a sweet pleasant odor.  This sense can 
also clue him into a person's emotional state allowing him to readily tell 
if someone is lying.  He is not very well liked by most other aces and has 
made virtual enemies of a few (such as Carnifex, Peregrine and Hiram 
Worchester). 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		9		-1 
Dex		10		0 
Con		12		6 
Body		10		0 
Int		15		5 
Ego		13		6 
Pre		10		0 
Com		12		1 
PD		2		0 
ED		2		0 
Spd		2		0 
Rec		4		0 
End		24		0 
Stun		21		0 
Char Total			17 
Power Total			87 
Total Cost			104 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
6	+2 with Perception 
10	Enhanced Perception: +5 with smell/taste group 
23	Detect: Wild Cards 21-, Sense 
15	Detect: Lies 18- 
 
1	Perk: Press Pass 
5	AK: New York 14- 
4	AK: America 13- 
3	Conversation 11- 
5	Persuasion 12- 
4	PS: Reporter 13- 
2	PS: Writer 11- 
3	Streetwise 11- 
6	SL: +2 with PRE Skills 
 
Disadvantages 
50	Base 
10	Psych: Pushy and obnoxius in his efforts to get a story 
10	Psych: Overconfidence 
15	SID: He's an ace 
10	Rep: Reporter for Aces Magazine tabloid 11- 
9	Experience 
 
(Digger Downs created by Steve Perrin, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:40:26 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: J. C. Jayewardene 
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X-UID: 31 
 
J. C. JAYEWARDENE 
 
Designers Notes: 
Jayewardene is a small man, 5'6" and 165 lbs.  He is a diplomat serving 
the government Sri Lanka.  He has the power to dream the future. 
Jayewardene is uncertain if he is dreaming events that *may* happen, or if 
he actually causes these events *to* happen.  He feels burdened by his 
power, and would like very much to be rid of it. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		10		0 
Dex		9		-3 
Con		11		2 
Body		11		2 
Int		15		5 
Ego		15		10 
Pre		13		3 
Com		10		0 
PD		2		0 
ED		2		0 
Spd		2		0 
Rec		4		0 
End		22		0 
Stun		22		0 
Char Total			19 
Power Total			58 
Total Cost			77 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
24	Clairsentience: Precognition, 0 END, No Range, Only While Sleeping  
	(Dreaming) (-1) 
 
4	AK: World 13- 
3	Bureaucratics 12- 
3	Conversation 12- 
3	High Society 12- 
3	Oratory 12- 
12	Lang: Dutch (3), English (3), Hindi (3), Singhalese (3), Tamil (0) 
6	SL: +2 with PRE Skills 
 
Disadvantages 
50	Base 
5	Age: 40+ 
15	Psych: Wishes to rid himself of his power, fears his dreams 
7	Experience 
 
(J. C. Jayewardene created by Walton Simons, character sheet created by 
Michael Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:42:04 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Jube the Walrus 
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JUBE THE WALRUS 
(Jube Benson / Jhubben) 
 
Designers Notes: 
Jube is 5' tall and weighs 300 lbs.  He has blue-black skin, tufts of 
bristly red hair, and two small tusks.  He seems immune to cold, is always 
dressed in loud Hawaiian shirts (even in snowstorms) and smells like 
buttered popcorn.  He's been in Jokertown as long as anyone can remember 
(well, since 1952 anyway).  In reality, Jube is an alien, a xenologist 
come to Earth from the plant Glabber to study the effects of the wild card 
virus on humanity.  Other than that, he a nice enough guy, who sells his 
newspapers from his stand and is more than willing to trade information 
with anyone.  He is also the source of some of the worst jokes anyone has 
ever heard, and he seems to have an infinite number of them.   
 
Note: Jube has access to both a large amount of wealth and some 
interesting pieces of high technology, including an FTL 'radio' and a 
laser pistol. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		18		8 
Dex		8		-6 
Con		15		10 
Body		13		6 
Int		20		10 
Ego		15		10 
Pre		15		5 
Com		8		-1 
PD		8		4 
ED		6		3 
Spd		2		2 
Rec		7		0 
End		30		0 
Stun		30		0 
Char Total			51 
Power Total			92 
Total Cost			143 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
12	Armor: DEF 4 (Thick skin) 
2	Life Support: Immune to cold (only) (-1) 
 
15	Perk: Wealth 
5	Computer Programming 14- 
4	KS: Bad jokes, esp joker jokes 14- 
5	Persuasion 13- 
2	PS: Newspaper Vendor 11- 
4	SC: Anthropology 14- 
4	SC: Computer Operations 14- 
4	SC: Linguistics 14- 
4	SC: Xenology 14- 
5	Streetwise 13- 
3	Trading 12-  
1	WF: Laser Pistol 
19	Lang: English (4), French (3), Glabberan (0), Mandarin (3),  
	Network Trade Talk (4), Rhindarian (4), Spanish (4), Yiddish (4) 
3	Linguist 
 
Disadvantages 
75	Base 
10	DF: Short, fat, blue-black, walrus-looking humanoid, who smells 
	like buttered popcorn 
5	Phys: Fat; he's 5' tall and 300 lbs 
10	Phys: Requires specialized medical attention  
10	Psych: Likes it cold, dresses in loud Hawaiian shirts even in the 
	coldest weather 
10	Psych: Likes people (ie. humans) 
15	SID: Alien 
8	Hidden Alien Bonus 
 
(Jube the Walrus created by George R R Martin, character sheet created by 
Michael Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 01:50:31 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Wild Cards update 
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For those who are interested (and for those who are wondering when I'm 
going to stop cluttering up the list) I have exactly 14 Wild Cards 
adaptions left to post and/or finish.  I'm down to the fun, easy to design 
characters now... Demise, Water Lilly, Fatman, Puppetman, Whisperer... 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: 	Mon, 16 Jun 1997 21:11:48 -1000 
From: Richard Scott <rscott@hawaii.edu> 
X-Sender: rscott@uhunix3 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Wild Cards update 
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You are doing a quite legendary job. :) 
 
Richard Scott (rscott@hawaii.edu) 
--You were spectacular, Bob.  But not very effective. 
South Melbourne official when the legendary Bob Pratt failed to win 
South's 1934 best and fairest despite kicking a league record 150 goals. 
 
On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> For those who are interested (and for those who are wondering when I'm 
> going to stop cluttering up the list) I have exactly 14 Wild Cards 
> adaptions left to post and/or finish.  I'm down to the fun, easy to design 
> characters now... Demise, Water Lilly, Fatman, Puppetman, Whisperer... 
>  
> *************************************************************************** 
> * "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
> *               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
> *            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
> * Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
> *************************************************************************** 
>  
>  
 
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:59:58 -0700 
From: "Capt. Spith" <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: LOW-Powered Games(Was: Related Subject) 
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HAPPYELF sez; 
 
> down with frameworks!! flames to the infidels!! *lol* 
> seriously, i would only use this rule in a high-powered campaign, though it works 
> suprisingly well if you use it(and maybe a FEW other limits) to make a slightly >low-power game. 
 
   Actually in low-power games (150 to 200 points) I found a unique way 
to really make players think about going a route other than 
power-mongering (such as you *can* with 150 points...) attempts. 
   This is actually for games where the 'supers' are supposed to be only 
barely more powerful than well equipped super-agents, but with innate 
powers; Normal CHAR Max for no disad, then apply the CHAR Max to the 
active points in any framework pool. 
   That is, the first 20 active points in a MP (for example) are 20 
points, then 2 points per add'l point in the pool after that, thus a 30 
point MP would cost 40 points (plus advantages, minus limitations, plus 
slot costs, and such). 
   For MPs and VPPs, slot costs and control costs would be figured 
directly from the total pool cost, and with ECs, each slot would be 
figured with the 'CHAR Max' in effect before reducing by the EC cost.  I 
like the way this drives home the idea of having _either_ a single 
powerful attack _or_ a variation of less powerful attacks, though it 
only tends to work well on lower powered games, since at higher power 
levels the point costs get too overblown and then downright unfair. 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 01:52:53 -0700 
From: "Capt. Spith" <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Complex Powers and Frameworks (Was: Related subject) 
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Mike Sprague wrote: 
 
> As a GM, I love having NPC's that cause the players to say "How 
> does he/she do that?"  Predictable villians, whoes powers are 
> well understood can end up boring for both the GM and players. 
 
   Okay, this has nothing to do with frameworks, but that's a great 
point; I created this one group of villians, none of whom had a 'normal' 
set of powers;  My favorite confusing attack was the brick's major nasty 
- A small RKA with a lot of extra STUN multiple, Based on ECV with No 
Range.  He wiped out the heroes' damage sponge, since nobody expected 
the need to send any EGO defenders against a *brick*! 
(Honest, it was legitimately within his concept to build the attack 
thusly) 
 
> Mike's Observations and Views on Power Frameworks: 
>  
> 1) I feel that Frameworks are like any other power that has a 
>    magnifying glass or a Stop sign next to them.  The GM _must_ 
>    take a close look at them, to make sure they make sense and 
>    are not too abusive. 
 
   Fine point; in fact, however, player-created characters should have 
either magnifying glasses or stop signs on them, since players are just 
as likely to be abusive without frameworks. 
 
  (other stuff I generally agree with) 
  
> As far as the individual Frameworks go: 
>  
> Elemental Control: 
>  
> This Framework is simply there to save points.  I admit that it's 
> evil, :-) but I still like and use it.  The problem is that it has 
> no built in Limitations like the others.  It simply saves points. 
 
   There are no obvious limitations, but an EC is limiting in the 
following ways; 
 
    I)Fewer points are saved than with other frameworks 
   II)All powers generally need to be around the same point level to 
capitalize  
      on the (lower) savings in the first place 
  III)BY DEFINITION, all powers in an EC are of the SAME SFX.  This is 
the  
      hallmark of (nearly) all frameworks everywhere.  A GM should 
always  
      have prepared some NPC to do something against 'All powers of X 
SFX'  
      to be able to affect an EC, a MP or a VPP.  This is the core 
concept  
      I consider to be most important for all frameworks, but 
particularly  
      EC's, and think that it is important to occasionally 'flex that 
muscle', 
      since it is one of the reasons for point savings in the first 
place. 
  
> My advice: 
>  
> a) Look for, and don't allow ones with lots of powers (unless, of 
>    course, you want to).  The more powers you add, the greater the 
>    cost savings, and the more powerful the character becomes when 
>    compared to the others (unless they do the same thing). 
 
   As I mentioned in the above semi-rant, this is simply not true;  
Every additional slot in an EC costs at least half of the points it 
would if bought 'straight', but every additional slot in a MP costs at 
MOST 1/5 of the cost it would otherwise, and usually only 1/10 the 
cost.  So by comparison, EC slots cost 2-1/2 times to 5 times as much as 
comparable MP slots, which is why the inherent limitations are less 
stringent. 
   Since it makes NO sense to have a framework with less than two slots, 
This comparison works from the minimum; A 10 DC MP with two multi-slots 
costs (ignoring limitations and such) would cost 70 points, a 10 DC EC 
with two slots would cost 75 points.  'Nuff said. 
  
> b) Be very very picky about what goes in, paying close attention 
>    to the Special Powers.  For example, I tend to allow Enhances 
>    senses in EC's, but I usually won't allow multiple Enhanced 
>    Senses combined into one Slot, which means that many are cheaper 
>    to buy outside the EC, unless it's a small one.  On the flip 
>    side, I usually won't allow the same power to be bought as 
>    multiple slots.  For example, three Slots of STR, each with 
>    different Limitations.  Since thay can be used together, I 
>    consider this one power, which the character got to subtract 
>    the base EC cost off three times!  I insist the character buy 
>    it all in one slot, and use partially Limited powers. 
 
   Sound advice.... 
 
   (more EC stuff, but I've already went on too much) 
 
> MultiPower: 
 
> My advice: 
>  
> a) Look for, and don't allow "Swiss Army Knife" MP's (unless again, 
>    it doesn't bother you).  MP should not be a cheap method to get 
>    every neat power in the book!  Also, if most of the slots are 
>    attacks, then the built in MP limitations, where you can use 
>    only one at a time rarely comes into play (and let's not drop 
>    into the great linked debate again). 
 
   I will occasionally allow this, but only if it is necessary for the 
concept ( a utility belt where you simple can't use everything at once), 
but it has to be precisely and reasonably defined. 
 
  (MP's as 'one power' with varying applications; definitely the best 
use) 
 
> c) I am not fond of characters with two MP, one full of attack powers, 
>    and one full of defense type stuff ... through if you tied all 
>    those points together into a big MP, the end cost turns out to 
>    pretty much be the same.  Still, it allows different Limitations 
>    to be universally applied to the MP. 
 
   I don't like these either, unless the concept includes a definite 
disparity in power between offense and defense (Powerful defense with 
weak attacks, for example), and of course, only with good reason. 
 
> Variable Power Pool: 
>Advice: 
  
> b) If you _do_ allow pools that can be changed on the fly during 
>    combat, consider limiting the powers in them to ones the 
>    character has predefined ahead of time. 
 
   My rule is that if the powers are being switched 'on the fly' then 
the character has but a few seconds(segments) to decide how, thus the 
player must have his/her power ready to use AT THEIR DEX when 'called', 
or they have to resort to a familiar standby, or no change.  This solves 
the problem of players holding up the game to finish figuring out their 
latest power.  It also allows for improvisation in sticky situations. 
  
> This turned out to be longer than I expected.  I hope someone get's 
> some use out of it. 
 
   Hey, I got to rant about EC's again, I haven't done that in awhile.  
Thank you for the opportunity. 
   (BTW, if this damn subject gains life again, please change the header 
again to warn those weary of such nonsense  :-)>  ) 
    
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
From: Clint Fishback <Fishback@mail.dec.com> 
Subject: Unsubcribing? 
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 07:52:16 -0400 
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X-UID: 38 
 
The message that tells how to usubscribe was deleted when they changed  
my email address. I need to unsubscribe the old email and re-subscribe  
to my new one. Would someone please email me direct, as I don't get  
the stuff from the list anymore, with how to do that? Thanx. 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Stupid Shrinking Tricks (was RE: Stupid Mind Tricks) 
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 08:31:45 -0400 
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>Also, how would one build a shrinking power where strength, movement 
>rates, and vulnerability to attack all change in proportion to the 
>character's new size?  Would it be reasonable to do this with side 
>effects? 
 
There are several ways to handle this. Here is an excerpt from my Power 
Point article dealing with size and density powers. The entire article 
can be found at http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905/haym15.html. 
 
 
--- BEGIN EXCERPT --- 
 
Shrinking Power Stunts 
 
There are many different tricks that can be done by characters with 
Shrinking.  
 
Weak Shrinking 
 
Some shrinkers keep their proportionate STR, not their full-sized STR, 
when shrunk.  
 
Mechanic's Rambling 
 
A Weak Shrinking option is to buy negative STR (sell off STR) with the 
linked limitation.  
 
Example: Felina can shapeshift into a house cat. She buys two levels of 
shrinking for 20 points, and -20 points of linked STR (at a real cost of 
-13 points), so her Weak Shrinking costs her 7 points.  
 
Felina can't sell off 30 points of STR (which would seem appropriate for 
two levels of Shrinking), because then the linked power would cost (sell 
for) more than the base power, and the linked limitation must always be 
applied to the lower cost power. If she wanted to, she could have bought 
her Shrinking at 0 END for 30 points, then sold off the whole 30 points 
of linked STR, for a net cost of 10 points.  
 
Another option is to buy Shrinking with a Weak limitation, -1 (priced 
similar to full side effect).  
 
Example: Wisp, normally STR 10, buys three levels of Weak Shrinking for 
a real cost of 15 points. At 1/8 size, she has a -35 STR, and can barely 
lift a pencil.  
 
Strong Shrinking 
 
Some shrinking character conceptions make the character stronger as he 
gets smaller. The most common way to model this is to buy three levels 
of Density Increase for each level of Shrinking. The mass cancels out, 
leaving a concentrated hero.  
 
Combat Shrinking 
 
The logic that shrunken characters are harder to hit can also work 
backwards. Now that the world seems much bigger to the shrinker, 
normal-sized characters are easier to hit. This can be bought as +2 OCV 
Combat Skill Levels per level, linked to Shrinking.  
 
Shrink Versus Shrink 
 
Two shrunken characters will have a hard time hitting each other, even 
when they're in the same hex, since they both have a bonus to DCV! 
Growth momentum only applies to characters larger than the shrinker -- 
this should also apply to DCV and PER modifiers for hand-to-hand combat. 
 
 
Example: Mind Mole can get twice as small as Bonsai. Against 
normal-sized people, Mind Mole has a +8 DCV, and Bonsai has a +6 DCV. 
But if the two ever faced each other, Mind Mole would only have a +2 DCV 
against Bonsai (but would still have a +8 against others).  
 
For hand-to-hand combat, the GM has the option to ignore Shrinking DCV 
bonuses completely, regardless of the size of the combatants. Small 
characters are still hard to hit, but when the attacker's hand is bigger 
than the entire shrinker's body, it can become the equivalent of an area 
effect attack, and cancel out the Shrinker's DCV.  
 
Inner Healing 
 
Some shrinking characters can undertake a fantastic voyage inside the 
human body. It's a great way to eavesdrop (from inside the ear!). 
Combined with medical knowledge skills, a shrinker with this type of 
shrinking special effect can diagnose or cure people.  
 
Example: Dr. Shrinker has the Aid power with the optional healing rules. 
Since his special effect is shrinking and curing the patient from the 
inside, he buys 8d6 Healing, requires a skill roll, gradual effect: 1 
day, and a 14- activation with a side effect of 8d6 Energy Blast.  
 
If he fails the skill roll, the operation does not succeed, and the 
patient might get worse or stay the same, depending on the case. The 
side effect is tied to the activation, not to the skill roll, and he 
only takes damage if he fails the activation, regardless of the outcome 
of the skill roll. The activation with side effect is defined as 
overcoming the body's defenses, which treat him as an outsider. "Oh, no! 
It's a squadron of white blood cells after me!"  
 
Alternately, this could have been bought with just a skill roll, and the 
level of the success or failure of the roll would determine whether or 
not the side effect energy blast occurs.  
 
Climbing 
 
Some small characters can climb better than normal-sized characters, 
because of small imperfections in a surface that are too small for 
normal characters to use. Velcro clings because of thousands of tiny 
hooks that grab onto each other.  
 
Sub-Atomic Shrinking 
 
Some shrinkers can get so small, they become smaller than atoms, and 
cross into a whole sub-atomic universe. This can be represented by 
Extra-Dimensional Movement to the sub-atomic universe. With this power, 
it's not necessary to also buy a zillion levels of shrinking -- the 
special effects of the EDM specify that the character shrinks small 
enough to enter.  
 
When the shrunken character arrives, everything seems normal-sized to 
him, since everything in the sub-atomic universe is already shrunken by 
the same amount that he is.  
 
Example: Particle Man has 7 levels of Shrinking, and Extra-Dimensional 
Movement to the sub-atomic universe. The GM rules that nothing in the 
sub-atomic universe can change size, since everything there is already 
so small, but does not allow Particle Man to take a -¼ limitation on his 
Shrinking, since it applies to everything that goes to the sub-atomic 
universe, not just Particle Man.  
 
What characters find in the sub-atomic universe is up to the GM. It 
might an entire civilization, a barren wasteland, or something extremely 
bizarre. Champions in 3-D can offer some ideas.  
 
Travel Through Phone Lines 
 
Some characters can get small enough to travel through the phones lines. 
 
 
This can be bought as:  
 
5" Teleport, 256xNCM {=1280"}, OIF: any phone (-½), only through phone 
lines (-1), destination is other phone, which must be answered (-1), 
immediate hang-up or bad connection gives random location (-½), no 
combat move (-¼), not instantaneous: teleport is gradual, and averages 
the speed of sound (-¼); for an active cost of 45, and a real cost of 10 
points.  
 
This gives a total distance per two phases (since it takes an extra 
phase to use long-range teleport) of 1.6 miles. For a 4 SPD character, 
this averages to 960 miles per hour. Teleport was chosen instead of 
flight or running because teleport takes only one phase to achieve 
maximum non-combat distance, which becomes velocity with the gradual 
limitation.  
 
Traveling at the speed of sound will still take a few seconds for a 
long-distance call. Nowadays, many phone lines are fiber optic, and 
don't transmit at the speed of sound, but the speed of light. Shrinkers 
who can't shrink as small as a photon will probably not be able to 
transmit through these digital lines. A -1 limitation can be applied to 
the teleport if only older analog lines can be traveled through.  
 
Mechanic's Rambling 
 
Some people prefer the combination of FTL and Desolid to be able to move 
at light speed through the atmosphere, but that seems to me to go 
against the spirit of the FTL rules.  
 
--- END EXCERPT --- 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.geocities.com/soho/5953 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 17 Jun 97 16:20:06 GMT 
Subject: Code vs Killing 
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
Path: october!opal 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 5 
 
 
 
 h > How do other GMs handle a character who has code vs killing.. and  
 h > kills?  
 h >  
 h > Let me point out up front - this hasn't happened.. YET.  But I'm  
 h > expecting it to.  
....  
 h > So.. assuming the inevitable happens, how should I handle it?  I don't  
 h > really want to turn it into a big confrontation (besides gaming with  
 h > him, I have to work with him), but I don't intend to let him get by  
 h > with  
 h > it either.  
 h >  
 h > The obvious penalty is that future experience will be earmarked to  
 h > buying down his code vs killing.  But I wanted an 'in-game' penalty as  
 h > well.  How would the government (he is on an officially sponsored team  
 h > of the city of Chicago) deal with him?  
 h >  
 h > Thanks for the help,  
 h >  
 h > Todd  
  
One good idea is to replace the Code with a different disad or disads.  
Since he hasn't been roleplaying the Code, I wouldn't bother to try to  
give  him a new psych lim to represent the trauma of breaking the Code.  
  
Instead, you can give him an Enraged or Berserk for that nasty temper -  
and invoke your GM perogative to *take control of the character* when  
he loses it.  You could pull  a similar thing, giving him a nasty split  
personality that kills.   The evil personality would take over the  
character's behavior more and more (translating to the *player* losing  
control of the characters action - let him think he's being mind  
controlled or something), until you can play through some cathartic  
scene where he regains control - and his Code.  If he ever comes close  
to breaking the Code again - back comes his dard side!  
  
Alternately, since it seems the player doesn't want the Code anyway,  
you can just replace it with apropriate hunteds (the Law if what he  
did could be considered murder, and/or vengeful associates of the  
victim.   And, of course, witholding exp to buy off the disad is  
also perfectly reasonable.  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 12:47:31 -0400 
X-Sender: absga@elbertonga.com 
From: Patrick Barden <absga@elbertonga.com> 
Subject: Re: Stupid Mind Tricks 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:15 PM 6/16/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote: 
>Hi Folks, 
>I just discovered Champions recently, and am so far very impressed. 
>It seems like almost any power is possible to build.  I'm stumped 
>on a couple of psionic powers, though: 
>- 
>Psionic Surgery - A lengthy process (can take as long as a day or two 
>for severe changes, less time for minor ones) where the target's per- 
>sonality is reshaped to to psychic's whim.  This can add or remove 
>psychological disadvantages, memories, etc.  The effects can be  
>reversed by a friendly telepath or psychotherepist, given enough 
>rehab time. 
 
Major Transformation with the following advantages and limitations: 
extra time, 
based on ECV, 
 
>Possesion - Like mind control, but the character senses what the 
>target would sense, and also has more detailed control over the 
>target's actions. 
 
Link mind control with clairsentience 
 
>Mind Swap - The character and the target swap bodies.  All physical 
>traits and non-psychic powers are exchanged. 
 
I have no idea but if you find out tell me.  I have wanted this effect myself. 
 
>Also, how would one build a shrinking power where strength, movement 
>rates, and vulnerability to attack all change in proportion to the 
>character's new size?  Would it be reasonable to do this with side 
>effects? 
 
No idea 
 
>Any ideas?  Apologies if these questions have been answered a cagillion 
>times, but I'm new to this list :-). 
>- 
>Eric 
> 
Patrick B. 
 
 
 
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 12:47:40 -0400 
X-Sender: absga@elbertonga.com 
From: Patrick Barden <absga@elbertonga.com> 
Subject: Urban Myth group 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I am looking to create an NPC team of villians based on urban myths. 
 
The only one I have so far is: 
Candyman 
A drug dealer who uses mirrors to terrorize his victims and opponents.  He 
also maintains a personal dimension behind the mirrors.  He is obsessed with 
(ie. will be stalking) some of the female members of the hero team. 
 
What I am looking for are ideas for other similar characters based on 
commonly held urban myths.  The accent on this team will be fear, horror and 
terror.  I want to maintain a spooky, gothic feel to this story. 
 
Any suggestion for characters or story points and atmosphere would be 
appreciated. 
 
Patrick B. 
 
 
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 10:11:07 -0700 
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell) 
Subject: Re: Urban Myth group 
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
-> From absga@elbertonga.com Tue Jun 17 09:55:52 1997 
-> I am looking to create an NPC team of villians based on urban myths. 
->  
-> The only one I have so far is: 
-> Candyman 
-> A drug dealer who uses mirrors to terrorize his victims and opponents.  He 
-> also maintains a personal dimension behind the mirrors.  He is obsessed with 
-> (ie. will be stalking) some of the female members of the hero team. 
->  
-> What I am looking for are ideas for other similar characters based on 
-> commonly held urban myths.  The accent on this team will be fear, horror and 
-> terror.  I want to maintain a spooky, gothic feel to this story. 
->  
-> Any suggestion for characters or story points and atmosphere would be 
-> appreciated. 
->  
 
At the risk of being obvious: 
 
The Albino Sewer Alligator! 
 
			-Sam 
 
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:18:24 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Urban Myth group 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Patrick Barden wrote: 
 
> I am looking to create an NPC team of villians based on urban myths. 
 
<snip> 
 
> What I am looking for are ideas for other similar characters based on 
> commonly held urban myths.  The accent on this team will be fear, horror and 
> terror.  I want to maintain a spooky, gothic feel to this story. 
>  
> Any suggestion for characters or story points and atmosphere would be 
> appreciated. 
 
Two other ideas would be a sewer dwelling were-alligator (gee, and I 
posted Sewer Jack awhile back...); and something involving cattle 
mutilations (evil sorcerer/Satanic cultist?). 
 
Depending upon the feel of the game, the were alligator could be normal 
sized or gigantic and probably should be albino. 
 
The cattle multilator should have HKA (knife), Invisibility (no one ever 
sees these guys), Ninja Hero's Hing Kung movement (they never leave 
tracks) and skills relating to surgery, anatomy and (possibly) medecine. 
He should dress in a sliver suit jumpsuit. 
 
Oh, yeah... Men In Black (aka MIB).  This guy should be big, dark-skinned, 
dark haired and look hispanic.  He wears a black suit and sun 
glasses.  His accent and mannerisms should be just a little bit "odd". 
Powers include a good STR, a high PRE and EGO and a number of skills 
realting to information gathering and intimidation.  (these guys seem to 
know all and see all)  He should have a high Forgery skill and IDs marking 
as belonging to some sort of military orginization.   
 
How's that? 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:56:53 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Deadhead 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
[sick, sick, sick, sick...] 
 
DEADHEAD 
(Glen Stephens) 
 
Designers Notes: 
Deadhead is tall and exceedingly thin, standing 5'10" and weighing 120 
lbs.  He is only about 20 years old, but looks much older due to his dead 
white skin , black hair and staring eyes.  He is bothered by a constant 
nervous tic and babbles almost non-stop.  Deadhead's power is the ability 
to experience the memories of anything he eats.  If he has a burger (for 
example) then he'll relive the life of the cow that made up the meat.  If 
he eats brain tissue, the memories become very clear, and he can often 
'relive' the subject's last moments.  Being an excellent artist, he can 
then sketch what he sees.  It should be noted that Deadhead is very much 
on the edge of insanity (or over it).  People who know him find him 
disgusting to say the least. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		6		-4 
Dex		8		-6 
Con		8		-4 
Body		8		-4 
Int		15		5 
Ego		10		0 
Pre		8		-2 
Com		8		-1 
PD		2		1 
ED		2		0 
Spd		2		2 
Rec		3		0 
End		16		0 
Stun		15		0 
Char Total			-13 
Power Total			37 
Total Cost			24 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
17	Clairsentience: Retrocognition, 0 END, No Range, Must eat eat 
	brains of subject (-2) 
 
3	Contact: Shadow Fist Society 12- 
3	KS: Art 12- 
4	KS: Nutrition 13- 
7	PS: Artist 15- 
3	Streetwise 11- 
 
Disadvantages 
0	Base 
5	DF: Babbles and chatters constantly, mostly to himself 
10	Psych: Afraid of food and eating 
15	Psych: Believes that he *must*Jeat human flesh 
10	Rep: Disgusting ace geek (Ext) 8- 
 
(Deadhead created by John J Miller, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:02:51 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Urban Myth group 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
 
On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Patrick Barden wrote: 
 
> I am looking to create an NPC team of villians based on urban myths. 
...  
> What I am looking for are ideas for other similar characters based on 
> commonly held urban myths.  The accent on this team will be fear, horror and 
> terror.  I want to maintain a spooky, gothic feel to this story. 
>  
 
How about either the ghost or the avenging parent of a child who was  
killed jumping off a roof in an attempt to emulate his favorite flying  
superhero? If you go the ghost route, it would probably be a desolid  
flying child in a cape, perhaps with some other ghostly abilities. An  
avenging parent, on the other hand, might simply have a real grudge  
against heroes. If you want to really have fun, make the hero the child  
was emulating one of the PC's. 
 
If you want really something *really* gruesome, how about an exploded  
cat? A little old lady tried to dry off her pet in the microwave, and so  
of course the little kitty exploded. Somehow the microwave radiation  
mutated it, though, so it came back to life and grew, while remaining  
hideously mangled.  
 
 
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:07:24 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Donald DiPaula <dipaula@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero system mail list <hero-l@emerald.omg.org&> 
        Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Deadhead 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> [sick, sick, sick, sick...] 
>  
> DEADHEAD 
> (Glen Stephens) 
>  
> Designers Notes: 
> Deadhead is tall and exceedingly thin, standing 5'10" and weighing 120 
> lbs.  He is only about 20 years old, but looks much older due to his dead 
> white skin , black hair and staring eyes.  He is bothered by a constant 
> nervous tic and babbles almost non-stop.  Deadhead's power is the ability 
> to experience the memories of anything he eats.  If he has a burger (for 
> example) then he'll relive the life of the cow that made up the meat.  If 
> he eats brain tissue, the memories become very clear, and he can often 
> 'relive' the subject's last moments.  Being an excellent artist, he can 
> then sketch what he sees.  It should be noted that Deadhead is very much 
> on the edge of insanity (or over it).  People who know him find him 
> disgusting to say the least. 
  
hmm... does this creature/idea remind anyone else of the alzabo from gene 
wolfe's _the book of the new sun_? 
 
-D- 
 
Cynthia Alice DiPaula was born 9 June 1997, 3:36 p.m., 7 lb. 10 oz., 20.5" 
 
My 1988 Mazda MX-6 is for sale, email me if interested. 
My 1989 Honda CB-1 (CB400F) is for sale, email me if interested, or read my  
<a href="http://www.access.digex.net/~dipaula/cb1.html">CB-1 description</a> 
 
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:15:23 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero system mail list <hero-l@emerald.omg.org&> 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Deadhead 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Donald DiPaula wrote: 
 
> > DEADHEAD 
> > (Glen Stephens) 
 
<snip> 
 
> hmm... does this creature/idea remind anyone else of the alzabo from gene 
> wolfe's _the book of the new sun_? 
 
Dunno, never read that one. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:28:14 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Demise 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
DEMISE 
(James Spector) 
 
Designers Notes: 
Demise is on of the more lethal characters in the Wild Cards universe. 
He's tall, standing about 6' in height, and thin, weighing 150 lbs.  He 
has stringy brown hair, a ragged mustache and a permanently disheveled 
look to him.  He died from the virus but was revived by an experimental 
process of Tachyon's.  After spending 6 months in an IC unit, he managed 
to recover some of his sanity.  It was at this time that Demise learned of 
his new power, the ability to project the 'memory of his death' into a 
target, killing them almost instantly.  He can also choose to simply stun 
someone as well.  Demise must be within a few feet of his target and must 
be able to see their eyes (mirror shades will stop this power).  Since he 
usually hits his target's by suprise (most don't know what to expect), 
this is not usually a problem.  It should be noted that Demise, having 
died once, has little in the way of moral restraint.   
 
Note: a varient version of his Death Stare could be a No Range RKA AVLD 
(Ego Defense).  Also, the power as written does require the GM to allow a 
Drain to kill someone. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		9		-1 
Dex		18		24 
Con		15		10 
Body		20		20 
Int		14		4 
Ego		14		8 
Pre		10		0 
Com		10		0 
PD		4		2 
ED		4		1 
Spd		3		2 
Rec		5		0 
End		30		0 
Stun		33		0 
Char Total			70 
Power Total			276 
Total Cost			346 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
169	Multipower: Death Stare, all multipower slots have the following  
	limitations; Affects Ego Defense instead of Power Defense (-1/4), 
	Requires eye contact (-1/2) 
16	u 6d6 Drain vs Body, Affects Ego Defense instead of Power  
	Defense (-1/4), Returns 5 Active Points per day (or 1 Active point 
	per five hours (+1 1/4) 
	Invisible to Sight (+1/2), 0 END, Requires eye contact (-1/2) 
6	u 6d6 Drain vs Stun, Affects Ego Defense instead of Power  
	Defense (-1/4), Invisible to Sight (+1/2), 0 END, Requires eye 
	contact (-1/2) 
 
42	12d6 Mind Control: Telepathic (+1/4), Single Command: Look at  
	me  (-1/2), 0 END, No Range, Requires eye contact (-1/2), Linked 
	to Death Stare Multipower (-1/2) 
 
10	Damage Reduction: 1/4 Physical, Resistant, vs Stun Only (-1/2) 
3	LS: Immune to disease 
8	Regeneration: 1 BODY per Minute (-1/4) 
 
3	PS: Accountant 12- 
3	SC: Accounting 12- 
5	Shadowing 12- 
3	Stealth 13- 
7	Streetwise 13- 
1	WF: Pistols 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
5	DF: Tall, skinny and seedy looking 
15	Psych: Bad Tempered, tends to kill thouse who irritate him 
15	Psych: Casual Killer, will kill for the slightest reason 
10	Psych: Impulsive, will often kill first worry about it later 
10	Psych: Paranoid, afraid of death, Tachyon and the Astronomer 
15	Rep: Demise - killer for hire (ext) 11- 
204	Experience 
 
(Demise created by Walter Simons, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:52:08 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Lazy Dragon 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
[okay Rat, is this what you meant?] 
 
LAZY DRAGON 
(Ben Choy / Tienbao) 
 
Designers Notes: 
Lazy Dragon (he gets his name from a Chinese folk hero) is of average 
height and build, standing 5'7" and weighing 140 lbs.  He usually has a 
dreamy expression on his face.  Dragon's power is the ability to animate 
small figures of animals into full grown representations of these 
creatures.  He must first create the figurine, either via folded paper of 
sculpting something such as soap, potato or carrot.  He then projects his 
consciousness into the figurine, resulting in a fully real animal.  When 
he does this his original body falls inert, looking as if he's sleeping. 
So far, he has created a mouse, a cat, a tiger, a polar bear and a 
oriental dragon (in 20' and 40' lengths).  The creatures are for all 
intents and purposes 'real' and can be killed (at which point his mind 
returns to his original body).  Presumably, if you killed his body, he'd 
have to live in his animal form for as long as possible.   
 
Note: the value given for his duplication pool is an arbitrary figure.  It 
should let one build a mouse and a cat, although it may be a bit hard to 
squeeze a bear and tiger in there.  GM's should assign a value that suits 
them.  Also note that the animal forms retain Dragon's INT score. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		12		2 
Dex		14		12 
Con		15		10 
Body		13		6 
Int		13		3 
Ego		13		6 
Pre		10		0 
Com		10		0 
PD		4		2 
ED		3		0 
Spd		3		6 
Rec		5		0 
End		30		0 
Stun		27		0 
Char Total			47 
Power Total			183 
Total Cost			230 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
100	100 Point Variable Power Pool: Animal 'Duplication' Powers 
57	VPP Control Cost: No Skill Roll Needed, Limited Special Effects 
	(animal powers), Requires IIF sculptures 
 
3	Contact: Fadeout 12- 
3	KS: Chinese History 12- 
2	KS: Origami 11- 
1	KS: KS: Shadow Fist Society 8- 
6	PS: Origami (DEX) 16- 
4	PS: Sculpting (DEX) 14- 
3	Streetwise 11- 
4	Lang: Catonese (native), English (4) 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
10	Psych: Dislike of white society 
15	Psych: Impulsive 
20	Phys: Main body is asleep while animal duplicate is active 
8	Watched: Shadowfist Society (MoPow) 8- 
77	Experience 
 
(Lazy Dragon created by William F Wu, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 15:05:21 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Water Lilly 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
WATER LILLY 
(Jane Lillian Dow) 
 
Designers Notes: 
Water Lilly is 5'7", 115 lbs, with red hair and green eyes.  She quite 
pretty.  She's also one of the most unlucky characters in the Wild Cards 
universe.  In the course of her 'career', she's been captured by the 
Astronomer, tossed off the 86th floor of the Empire State Building, worked 
(unknowingly) for the Mafia, used as a mount by Ti Malice and infected by 
Typhoid Croyd.   
 
Water Lilly's power is the ability to condense water out of the 
surrounding atmosphere.  She can also draw water from someone's body, 
leaving a white, powdery residue if she does it all the way.  She can 
create mini-rain falls and move masses of water about.  She tends to soak 
herself is excited or scared (or angry), leaving pools of water about. 
After she was re-infected by Typhoid Croyd, she gained the power to cure a 
wild card victim via sexual intimacy.  Naturally, this process takes a 
while. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		7		-3 
Dex		14		12 
Con		12		4 
Body		11		2 
Int		15		5 
Ego		13		6 
Pre		10		0 
Com		14		2 
PD		2		1 
ED		2		0 
Spd		3		6 
Rec		4		2 
End		24		0 
Stun		21		0 
Char Total			37 
Power Total			226 
Total Cost			263 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
126	Multipower: Water Control, all slots have limitation; Not in dry 
	areas/vs dry targets (-1/4) 
13	u 6d6 Drain vs Body, Ranged, 1/2 END, Not vs 'dry' targets (-1/4), 
	END 7 
9	m 30 STR TK, 0 END, Requires large quantities of water (-1/4), 
	Affects all parts of target (-1/4), Not in very dry areas (-1/4) 
20	m 10d6 Transformation Attack Minor: Create Water, 1/2 END, Not in 
	very dry areas (-1/4), END  
3	m Change Environment:JMini-rain showers, 4" radius, 0 END,  
	Not in very dry areas (-1/4) 
 
51	Transformation 6d6 Major: wildcard victim to normal human, 
	Cumulative, 0 END, No Range, Requires intimate contact (-2) 
 
2	PS: Restaurant Manager 11- 
2	PS: Waitress 11- 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
15	DF: Power manifests when she is excited or scared, drenching her 
	(and the surrounding area) 
5	Poor 
15	Psych: Impulsive 
10	Psych: Naive about life in the big city 
10	Psych: Will not accept charity 
5	Unluck 1d6 
91	Experience 
 
(Water Lilly created by Pat Cadigan, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: Urban Myth group (fwd) 
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 15:20:37 -0400 (EDT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Forwarded message: 
>  
> -> From absga@elbertonga.com Tue Jun 17 09:55:52 1997 
> -> I am looking to create an NPC team of villians based on urban myths. 
> ->  
>  
> At the risk of being obvious: 
>  
> The Albino Sewer Alligator! 
>  
> 			-Sam 
>  
 
Yeah, or "Steals-People's-Kidneys-and-Sells-Them-on-the-Black-Market-Man"! 
 
-Eric 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Lazy Dragon 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 17 Jun 1997 16:11:54 -0400 
Lines: 37 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes: 
 
MS> 100	100 Point Variable Power Pool: Animal 'Duplication' Powers 
MS> 57	VPP Control Cost: No Skill Roll Needed, Limited Special Effects 
MS> 	(animal powers), Requires IIF sculptures 
 
Close enough.  I envisioned it as having a skill roll to change the 
duplication power in the pool, though, especially since he does have the 
requisite skills.  The limited powers limitation is "one instance of 
duplication" -- that is, the pool may be set for only one form at a time 
(more semantics than anything else since the actual value does not change). 
There are probably a few other limitations that could be added, such as 
time and concentration.  Special effects -0 that the creature created is 
pretty much "normal" for that type of creature. 
 
And let me reiterate that this is gross.  This kind of thing should not 
generally be allowed in players' hands.  It deliberately and with malice 
aforethought bypasses most of the restrictions on Duplication, but it is 
still the simplest way to do it that I could think of. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBM6bvh56VRH7BJMxHAQFu0AQAvmSpd/p3M2mv+xlXlyzjjbF1maPnb4hE 
nuU9BJARW35BOZPF3pxDDcJn3wAhkYJAA5JArg7Yg3M/i8l32rXvOf9BbpR6sCEy 
uZjNsmTjpqbvCLASjZ6/9jouJAYLZtr4Dow+BVuQYvmWwVISPeX0pNxSdQY1jjUx 
0vgrHJe50Jw= 
=ptyx 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: RE: CHAR: Demise 
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 16:15:41 -0400 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I want to see how you're going to handle the Demise versus Puppetman 
battle. 
 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
Subject: Re: Stupid Mind Tricks) 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-14,18-25 
From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David  W Toomey) 
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:22:42 EDT 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>Some characters can get small enough to travel through the phones  
>lines. 
>This can be bought as:  
> 
>5" Teleport, 256xNCM {=1280"}, OIF: any phone (-½), only through phone 
>lines (-1), destination is other phone, which must be answered (-1), 
>immediate hang-up or bad connection gives random location (-½), no 
>combat move (-¼), not instantaneous: teleport is gradual, and averages 
>the speed of sound (-¼); for an active cost of 45, and a real cost of  
>10 
>points.  
>Traveling at the speed of sound will still take a few seconds for a 
>long-distance call. Nowadays, many phone lines are fiber optic, and 
>don't transmit at the speed of sound, but the speed of light.  
 
Beg Pardon?  All phone lines are electromagnetic phenomenon, and work at 
a little less than lightspeed.  Otherwise, if you called California from 
New York, each reply would take HOURS to get to the respondant.  Old 
style phone lines are NOT two tin cans with string between. 
 
 
David W Toomey 
dwtoomey@juno.com 
 
 
 
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:24:08 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net 
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
Subject: Re: Urban Myth group 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:47 PM 6/17/97 -0400, Patrick Barden wrote: 
>I am looking to create an NPC team of villians based on urban myths. 
> 
>The only one I have so far is: 
>Candyman 
>A drug dealer who uses mirrors to terrorize his victims and opponents.  He 
>also maintains a personal dimension behind the mirrors.  He is obsessed with 
>(ie. will be stalking) some of the female members of the hero team. 
> 
>What I am looking for are ideas for other similar characters based on 
>commonly held urban myths.  The accent on this team will be fear, horror and 
>terror.  I want to maintain a spooky, gothic feel to this story. 
> 
>Any suggestion for characters or story points and atmosphere would be 
>appreciated. 
 
The Stranger (As in never talk to.....)  
 
 
Based on the mythical kiddnapper/molester most children are taught to fear. 
He/It would be high Pre sort, friendly over all but with either 1. Insane 
desire to torment children and woman or 2. Some other driving and 
supernatural reason (such as being a demon who feeds on innocent souls or 
fear.) Might have mind control, invisibilty and shape shifting powers. 
Possibly a teleport to escape with his victims.  
 
The Phantom Hitchhiker is another possibility but I am not sure how to twist 
it into a villinous angle.  
	Can God make a plot so twisted even he can't figure it out? 
			Tom Servo -MST 3K "The Island of Dr Fu Manchu"  
 
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 17:13:03 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Chickenhawk 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 19 
 
CHICKENHAWK 
(Gus Wenninger) 
 
Description: 
Chickenhawk is short, standing only about 5'3", and very light, weighing about 
60 lbs.  He has wings that are formed from flaps of skin between his 
fingerbones, these flaps are anchored at his wrists and ankles.  Hew also has a 
long, barbed tail, dirty clumps of feathers scattered over his body and wattles 
under his chin.  Chickenhawk's main ability is to be able to glide on air 
currents.  He also has very acute vision and can use his feet in place of his 
weak hands. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		5		-5 
Dex		14		12 
Con		10		0 
Body		9		-2 
Int		8		-2 
Ego		10		0 
Pre		8		-2 
Com		2		-4 
PD		2		1 
ED		2		0 
Spd		3		6 
Rec		3		0 
End		20		0 
Stun		17		0 
Char Total			4 
Power Total			48 
Total Cost			52 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
-10	Running: 1" 
8	Gliding: 8" 
6	Enhanced Perception: +3 
6	Telescopic Sight: +4 vs RMod 
5	Extra Limbs: Feet 
 
3	Contact Shadow Fist Society 12- 
6	AK: New York City 15- 
5	Climbing 13- 
1	KS: Shadow Fist Society 8- 
3	Streetwise 11- 
9	Survival 14- 
4	CSL: +2 with Gliding 
2	CSL: +1 OCV with Grab 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
20	DF: Hideous joker with wings and a tail 
5	Phys: Weighs 60 lbs, +2" to all KB rolls 
15	Phys: Virtual cripple when on the ground; 1" Running and 1/2 DCV 
15	Psych: Likes his food raw and live 
 
(Chickenhawk created by George R. R. Martin, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 19 19:07:09 1997 
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Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 17:12:39 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Carnifex 
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Status: O 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 20 
 
CARNIFEX 
(William "Billy" Ray) 
 
Description: 
Carnifex is over average height, standing 5'10" and weighs about 165.  His face 
is a little off; the eyes aren't level, his jaw is canted, there is too much 
nose and his chin is lacking a bit.  His costume consists of a white body suit 
with a black hood, gloves and boots.  Carnifex's ace powers include increased 
strength, speed and the ability to regenerate from massive amounts of damage. 
Carnifex is also a master of hand to hand combat, although he hasn't studied any 
formal martial art, he just knows what move to make when he needs to make it. 
Thus, Carnifex's martial maneuvers function both as punches and kicks. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		25		15 
Dex		34		72 
Con		18		16 
Body		20		20 
Int		12		2 
Ego		18		16 
Pre		20		10 
Com		8		-1 
PD		12		7 
ED		10		6 
Spd		6		16 
Rec		10		2 
End		36		0 
Stun		42		0 
Char Total			181 
Power Total			153 
Total Cost			334 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
	Martial Arts: Free-form Mayhem 
4	Block  +2 OCV  +2 DCV  Block, Abort 
4	Dodge  +0 OCV  +5 DCV  Dodge vs All, Abort 
4	Counterstrike  +2 OCV  +2 DCV  7d6 Strike; Must follow successful Block 
4	Fast Strike  +2 OCV  +0 DCV  7d6 Strike 
3	Legsweep  +2 OCV  -1 DCV  6d6 Strike; Target Falls 
4	Martial Strike  +0 OCV  +2 DCV  7d6 Strike 
5	Offensive Strike  -2 OCV  +1 DCV  9d6 Strike 
 
20	Damage Resistance: 1/2 Energy, Resistant, vs Stun Only (-1/2) 
20	Damage Resistance: 1/2 Physical, Resistant, vs Stun Only (-1/2) 
8	Regeneration: 1 BODY per Minute (-1/4) 
8	Running: +4" (10" total) 
9	Enhanced Perception: +3 PER 
 
3	Perk: Federal Police Powers 
3	Ambidexterity 
3	Breakfall 16- 
5	Deduction 13- 
3	Interrogation 13- 
3	KS: Law 12- 
5	KS: Football 14- 
3	PS: Football Player (DEX) 16- 
2	PS: Dept of Justice Agent 11- 
5	Shadowing 12- 
3	Stealth 16- 
3	Streetwise 13- 
7	Tactics 14- 
2	WF: Small Arms 
10	CSL: +2 with HTH 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
15	Berserk: Combat, 8-/14- 
10	DF: Mismatched features 
15	Psych: Overconfident, Likes to fight tough, powerful foes 
15	Psych: Impulsive and Reckless, Tends to act without thinking 
10	Psych: Lecherousness, 'Skirt chaser' 
5	Psych: Neatness freak 
15	Rep: Powerful, dangerous Government Ace 14- 
15	Watched: US Justice Dept, (Mopow, NCI) 14- 
134	Executioner Bonus 
 
(Carnifex created by John J Miller, character sheet created by Michael 
 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 19 19:07:10 1997 
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Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 17:12:08 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Bludgeon 
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970518170852.3827B-100000@access5.digex.net> 
MIME-Version: 1.0 
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Status: O 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 21 
 
This is the first of a series of posts of characters adapted from GURPS 
Wildcards.  I'm planning on doing... oh... as many of them as interests me 
so if you haven't seen you favorite character yet, just wait.  I'll  post 
my conversion notes when I get around to it, but I haven't really written 
them up into something coherant yet.  Note that these conversions are of 
the 'quick and dirty' variety and as with all character adaptions, YMMV. 
 
BLUDGEON 
(Robert Sievers) 
 
Description: 
Bludgeon is huge, standing about 7' tall and weighing over 300 pounds.  His 
right arm and hand are a malformed mass of muscle and bone.  His fist is 
described as being: "the size and color of a smoked Virginia ham".  Bludgeon's 
face is scared and pockmarked, and he has one blue eye and one red one.  His 
scalp is covered with boils and sores.  Bludgeon's 'ace' power is immense 
physical strength and to be able to absorb tremendous punishment.  As noted in 
his Psych Lims, Bludgeon is aggressive, violent and brutal.  He is the perfect 
thug, especially since he's not all that bright, either. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		38		23 
Dex		9		-3 
Con		20		20 
Body		20		18 
Int		8		-2 
Ego		10		0 
Pre		15		5 
Com		6		-2 
PD		9		2 
ED		6		2 
Spd		3		11 
Rec		11		0 
End		40		0 
Stun		48		0 
Char Total			74 
Power Total			55 
Total Cost			129 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
7	Growth: 1 Level, 0 END, Persistant, Always On 
	+5 STR, +1 BODY, +1 STUN, -1" KB, 7' Tall, 310 lbs 
6	HA: +2d6, 0 END, Right hand only (-1/2) 
9	Armor: 3 DEF (Thick skin) 
10	Damage Resistance: 1/4 Physical, Resistant, vs Stun Only (-1/2) 
 
2	AK: Jokertown 11- 
2	AK: New York City 11- 
3	Interrogation 12- 
1	KS: Mafia 8- 
1	KS: Shadow Fist Society 8- 
3	Streetwise 12- 
5	CSL: +1 HTH 
6	CSL: +2 with Block, Haymaker, Punch 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
20	DF: Huge, ugly joker with a deformed right hand/arm 
5	DF: Constant use of foul language 
15	Psych: Bad Tempered, Prone to fits of rage 
15	Psych: Bully, Likes to hurt others 
10	Rep: Violent Thug 11- 
 
(Bludgeon created by George R. R. Martin, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 19 19:07:12 1997 
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From: Patrick Barden <absga@elbertonga.com> 
Subject: The Pretender 
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Can anyone suggest some ideas about how to duplicate the effect of the 
Pretender.  I have a few ideas but I'd like to see how others might handle this. 
 
For those who may not be familiar with the character it is a man who can not 
only assume any personality but also any profession.  He can basically be 
any person or profession he wants anytime he wants. 
 
Patrick B. 
 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 19 19:07:13 1997 
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From: Patrick Barden <absga@elbertonga.com> 
Subject: Re: Name needed 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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At 05:05 PM 5/17/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>At 09:12 PM 5/7/97 -0400, Richard D. Bergstresser Jr. wrote: 
>>>    Somehow, I don't think that a macho, male Irish hero (at least, I 
>>> *assume* that this character is male) would take the name Bain Sidhe (Gaelic 
>>> for "female fairy"). 
>> 
>>But that does bring up a good idea. My faerie lore just shut off, so what's 
>the  
>>Irish equivalent of the Wendigo or the Will o'Wisp? 
> 
>   That one, I don't happen to know... and, judging from the deafening 
>silence, I'm guessing that nobody else on the list knows either. 
>   I got my information above (Bain Sidhe) from "Kingdom of Champions" 
>(which, I might add, I find to be a good resource when I wear my writer's 
>hat as well as when I wear my GM's hat).  Maybe you can find some help there 
>as well. 
>--- 
The Irish Male equivalent of the Wendifo or the Will of the Wisp is the Jack 
O' The Lantern. 
 
Patrick B. 
 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 19 19:07:14 1997 
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Date: 	Sun, 18 May 1997 12:29:55 -1000 
From: Richard Scott <rscott@hawaii.edu> 
X-Sender: rscott@uhunix4 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: The Pretender 
In-Reply-To: <199705182127.RAA08783@emerald> 
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some sort of intelligence based power that lets you learn skills 
instantly?  A sort of skills reflex like the Taskmaster's combat reflex. 
 
Richard Scott (rscott@hawaii.edu) 
--You were spectacular, Bob.  But not very effective. 
South Melbourne official when the legendary Bob Pratt failed to win 
South's 1934 best and fairest despite kicking a league record 150 goals. 
 
On Sun, 18 May 1997, Patrick Barden wrote: 
 
> Can anyone suggest some ideas about how to duplicate the effect of the 
> Pretender.  I have a few ideas but I'd like to see how others might handle this. 
>  
> For those who may not be familiar with the character it is a man who can not 
> only assume any personality but also any profession.  He can basically be 
> any person or profession he wants anytime he wants. 
>  
> Patrick B. 
>  
>  
>  
 
From ???@??? Mon May 19 19:07:15 1997 
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Date: 	Sun, 18 May 1997 13:34:14 -1000 
From: Richard Scott <rscott@hawaii.edu> 
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Subject: Re: CHAR: Chickenhawk 
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970518171242.3827D-100000@access5.digex.net> 
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thanks Michael, keep up the good work.  Have you done 
Fortunato/Turtle/Yeoman?  Maybe we can compare notes on those. 
 
Richard Scott (rscott@hawaii.edu) 
--You were spectacular, Bob.  But not very effective. 
South Melbourne official when the legendary Bob Pratt failed to win 
South's 1934 best and fairest despite kicking a league record 150 goals. 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 19 19:07:16 1997 
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From: Richard Scott <rscott@hawaii.edu> 
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Subject: Re: CHAR: Carnifex 
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Looks good Michael.  25 strength is what, 8 times as strong as the average 
guy?  Or thereabouts. 
 
Richard Scott (rscott@hawaii.edu) 
--You were spectacular, Bob.  But not very effective. 
South Melbourne official when the legendary Bob Pratt failed to win 
South's 1934 best and fairest despite kicking a league record 150 goals. 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 19 19:07:43 1997 
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Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:31:51 -0400 (EDT) 
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Subject: Re: The Pretender 
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In a message dated 97-05-18 17:47:20 EDT, you write: 
 
<< Can anyone suggest some ideas about how to duplicate the effect of the 
 Pretender.  I have a few ideas but I'd like to see how others might handle 
this. 
  
 For those who may not be familiar with the character it is a man who can not 
 only assume any personality but also any profession.  He can basically be 
 any person or profession he wants anytime he wants. 
  
 Patrick B. 
  >> 
 
This sounds like a case where a VPP based just on Skills geared toward a 
profession would be allowable.  The personality could be accomplished with 
Acting, Oratory, Disguise (for the body language and facial expressions), and 
maybe even Mimicry or Seduction. 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 19 19:07:44 1997 
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Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:27:51 
From: John Turner <Avery1@flash.net> 
Subject: Re: real world martial art 
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970517110408.281f3d22@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
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At 10:58 AM 5/17/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
>how about thai, cross-trained with judo? the best fighter is always a 
hybrid, and i don't mean those fat boys in the ucf who pretend they can kick.  
 
 
Um, just to point out something, judo is the sport form of juijitsu.  
 
:) 
 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 19 19:07:45 1997 
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Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 02:57:22 -0400 (EDT) 
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Subject: Re: Name needed 
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In a message dated 97-05-18 17:55:14 EDT, absga@elbertonga.com (Patrick 
Barden) writes: 
 
> The Irish Male equivalent of the Wendifo or the Will of the Wisp is the 
Jack 
>  O' The Lantern. 
>   
>  Patrick B. 
 
Isn't "Will of the Wisp" Irish?  My sources attribute it to all of the 
british isles. 
 
Jay Albright (not Irish...I'm told I've got a little Manx blood in me.) 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 19 19:07:46 1997 
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Date: 	Sun, 18 May 1997 21:32:56 -1000 
From: Richard Scott <rscott@hawaii.edu> 
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cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: The Pretender 
In-Reply-To: <970519013151_641860951@emout18.mail.aol.com> 
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yes, that was what I was tyring to think of being rusty, no tmultipower 
etc., variable power pool deal.  Well done. :)  That would work fine, can 
grab the skills as he needs them, and some process to keep them too if you 
want, I guess. 
 
Richard Scott (rscott@hawaii.edu) 
--You were spectacular, Bob.  But not very effective. 
South Melbourne official when the legendary Bob Pratt failed to win 
South's 1934 best and fairest despite kicking a league record 150 goals. 
 
On Sun, 18 May 1997 Firelynx16@aol.com wrote: 
 
> In a message dated 97-05-18 17:47:20 EDT, you write: 
>  
> << Can anyone suggest some ideas about how to duplicate the effect of the 
>  Pretender.  I have a few ideas but I'd like to see how others might handle 
> this. 
>   
>  For those who may not be familiar with the character it is a man who can not 
>  only assume any personality but also any profession.  He can basically be 
>  any person or profession he wants anytime he wants. 
>   
>  Patrick B. 
>   >> 
>  
> This sounds like a case where a VPP based just on Skills geared toward a 
> profession would be allowable.  The personality could be accomplished with 
> Acting, Oratory, Disguise (for the body language and facial expressions), and 
> maybe even Mimicry or Seduction. 
>  
 
From ???@??? Mon May 19 19:07:47 1997 
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Subject: Re: The Pretender 
Date: Mon, 19 May 97 08:35:23 -0400 
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On 5/18/97 5:27 PM, Patrick Barden (absga@elbertonga.com) Said: 
 
>Can anyone suggest some ideas about how to duplicate the effect of the 
>Pretender.  I have a few ideas but I'd like to see how others might handle  
>this. 
> 
>For those who may not be familiar with the character it is a man who can not 
>only assume any personality but also any profession.  He can basically be 
>any person or profession he wants anytime he wants. 
 
Buy all the skill enhancers, and some perks & contacts. Buy forgery and  
disguise skills. Oratory & Persuasion would be a good bet. And throw in  
the Cramming Talent bought multiple times, and allow bonuses to it for  
whatever you feel appropriate (extra time, related skills, etc.) and  
maybe, 8-10 overall skill levels. 
 
  .oooO        | 
  (   ) Oooo.  | David A. Fair 
   \ (  (   )  | SDS International 
    \_)  ) /   | dfair@sdslink.com 
        (_/    | 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 19 19:07:50 1997 
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From: wga@po.cwru.edu (Will Austin) 
Subject: Re: whispering vault 
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>Revenant said: 
>        One of the big problems I found is the initiative system - the way 
>(for example) Speed 7 translates to an action on segments 
>2,4,6,7,9,11,12. 
>Not only is it a pain to keep track of when your turn is, but it's a 
>pain 
>to keep track of what segment you're actually up to. 
 
        I've never found this to be true. . .each character sheet has a 
little section where you can mark off the phases your character moves on, 
and (usually) the GM monitors the passing of phases. . .not a pain at all, 
unless you're new to the system. . . 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 19 19:07:51 1997 
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From: wga@po.cwru.edu (Will Austin) 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Carnifex 
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Bravo, Michael!!  I'd love to see more! 
 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 19 19:07:52 1997 
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Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:31:45 -0700 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberhighway.net> 
Subject: Hughes Academy Game 
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Okay, I am going to run a PBEM game of young students in a private school 
that teaches how to safely use powers.  The game will be based on Hero rules 
(but as it is Email, that is less important than it is face to face), and 
will likely follow the once turn per week pattern used by most games.  I 
presently have 6 people interested, and can have more (how many more will 
depend on how complex this gets, for now 10 is a limit I will stay at). 
 
My home page is not yet up, but will be soon, I will post the URL when I get 
it up.  The game information and some pix will be on there for players, and 
I will post the turns there as well. 
 
For basic information, no student can be older than a 12th grader, and none 
should be younger than a 7th grader.  The students can have any background 
that does not involve some sort of history, training, or technology (like 
armor).  The students should, in other words, need to learn with their 
powers, and the powers should be inherent.  This can range from the vanilla 
Mutant to a Vampire, an Alien, a little confused Cyborg, etc etc... as long 
as the character is new to this, needs some help with the powers, and is a teen. 
 
In other words, I want no one like 'M' in the Generation X comic... 
 
Characters are 75 pts + up to 75 pts in disadvantages.  For each 15 points 
of disads over the max, you get a coolness point (which helps your status in 
the school with the other students, more will be explained on this later). 
You also get coolness points for taking some limitations on your powers that 
simluate poor control and difficulty of use (such as activation cost, Skill 
rolls based on a stat, increased END cost, etc).  For each -1/2 of these 
limitations, you get another coolness point. 
 
Coolness points add to your status in the eyes of other students, they act 
as sort of extra Presence only to peers.  Lots of COOL means you are very 
popular, less means you are just known.  Characters can take negative cool 
for extra points, for each 1 cool you are in the red, you get 5 points, but 
you can only go to -5 cool before you implode into a black hole of insecurity. 
 
The Hughes Acadmey has many more students than just the characters, and only 
a handful of them have powers like your characters will.  The Academy is a 
prestigious private school for grades 7-12, and costs quite a bit.  However, 
any student with acedemic promise or unusual powers gets in free, as Gilbert 
Hughes was the sole recipient of Howard Hughes' fortunes. 
 
More will follow, and the Home Page will have all you need on it. 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 19 19:07:55 1997 
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Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 16:16:10 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Carnifex 
In-Reply-To: <199705191447.KAA26431@arthur.INS.CWRU.Edu> 
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On Mon, 19 May 1997, Will Austin wrote: 
 
> Bravo, Michael!!  I'd love to see more! 
 
Thanks.  I'm mostly done with Captain Trips... can you say "Point 
Monster"? 
 
BTW: Wildcards has the most incredible extreme'sI've ever seen in 
character design.  On one hand we have 52 point Chickenhawk, while *all* 
of Trip's 'friends' are at least 370 points or better.  I also have to 
deal with such things at 170 Active Point attacks!  (yes, you read that 
right...)  The other interesting thing is DEX, or lack their of.  Most of 
these guys look to have a DEX of about 18 and a SPD of 4, which means that 
true stat monsters like Carnifex and Moonchild *really* stand out. 
 
Following the character posts, I'll post my notes explaining  "How I Did 
it".  It should help with anyone wanting a 'rough and ready' meathod of 
conversion. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 19 19:07:57 1997 
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Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 13:34:59 -0500 
From: ghost@softfarm.com (Bryce Berggren) 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Carnifex 
Message-ID: <19970519211156791.AAC236@lizard> 
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At 04:16 PM 5/19/97 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Mon, 19 May 1997, Will Austin wrote: 
> 
>> Bravo, Michael!!  I'd love to see more! 
> 
>Thanks.  I'm mostly done with Captain Trips... can you say "Point 
>Monster"? 
 
If you can build Trips on less than a thousand points, you are a god ... 
well, demi-god now, since he's lost Starshine & Moonchild. 
 
>BTW: Wildcards has the most incredible extreme'sI've ever seen in 
>character design.  On one hand we have 52 point Chickenhawk, while *all* 
>of Trip's 'friends' are at least 370 points or better.  I also have to 
>deal with such things at 170 Active Point attacks!  (yes, you read that 
>right...)   
 
Only 170?? :) Have you tried Popinjay yet? Just your normal everyday 
heroic-level 
character ... except for a 420 pt. Active Point power. And I actually think 
my version of him may have skimped. 
 
The other interesting thing is DEX, or lack their of.  Most of 
>these guys look to have a DEX of about 18 and a SPD of 4, which means that 
>true stat monsters like Carnifex and Moonchild *really* stand out. 
 
True ... although I've noted your conversions are coming out a bit more zapped 
up then my own. I've deflated the DEX/SPD equation a bit, which means someone 
like Turtle is likely to end up with around 11 DEX/3 SPD ... but Carnifex is 
still 24/6. 
 
On a secondary note, I'd be curious to see someone take on the characters that 
/weren't/ in GURPS Wildcards, particularly Will o' the Wisp, Shad, Crypt-Kicker, 
and Cameo. (I'd try it myself, but stupidly I traded my Card Sharks books at 
a paperback exchange, and now I can't seem to get them back). 
 
 
H. G. 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 19 19:07:59 1997 
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Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 17:28:30 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Carnifex 
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On Mon, 19 May 1997, Bryce Berggren wrote: 
 
> >Thanks.  I'm mostly done with Captain Trips... can you say "Point 
> >Monster"? 
>  
> If you can build Trips on less than a thousand points, you are a god ... 
> well, demi-god now, since he's lost Starshine & Moonchild. 
 
Lost Moonchild?  When did that happen, who did it? 
 
BTW: what is the total count of WC books?  Are they still avaliable? 
 
> >BTW: Wildcards has the most incredible extreme'sI've ever seen in 
> >character design.  On one hand we have 52 point Chickenhawk, while *all* 
> >of Trip's 'friends' are at least 370 points or better.  I also have to 
> >deal with such things at 170 Active Point attacks!  (yes, you read that 
> >right...)   
>  
> Only 170?? :) Have you tried Popinjay yet? Just your normal everyday 
> heroic-level 
> character ... except for a 420 pt. Active Point power. And I actually think 
> my version of him may have skimped. 
 
Well, no, but I can see how it is a disgustingly powerful attack.  What 
did you do?  I was going to try Extra-Dimensional Movement, Ranged, 
Useable on Others. 
 
> The other interesting thing is DEX, or lack their of.  Most of 
> >these guys look to have a DEX of about 18 and a SPD of 4, which means that 
> >true stat monsters like Carnifex and Moonchild *really* stand out. 
>  
> True ... although I've noted your conversions are coming out a bit more zapped 
> up then my own. I've deflated the DEX/SPD equation a bit, which means someone 
> like Turtle is likely to end up with around 11 DEX/3 SPD ... but Carnifex is 
> still 24/6. 
 
I'm using the conversion notes from Fantasy Hero for stats.  Basically you 
do this: (GURPS stat x 2) - 10.  It sorta works, except for STR. 
 
> On a secondary note, I'd be curious to see someone take on the characters that 
> /weren't/ in GURPS Wildcards, particularly Will o' the Wisp, Shad, Crypt-Kicker, 
> and Cameo. (I'd try it myself, but stupidly I traded my Card Sharks books at 
> a paperback exchange, and now I can't seem to get them back). 
 
Problem is, most of these guys didn't get a lot of screen time.  The guy 
that would scare me would be, uh... what ever Snotman called himself after 
Typhod Croyd got done with him.  *HE* was scary!. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 19 19:08:01 1997 
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Date: 	Mon, 19 May 1997 12:00:07 -1000 
From: Richard Scott <rscott@hawaii.edu> 
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cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Carnifex 
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well, chickenhawk is just a joker though, they will be lower levels. 
 
cf DC first edition Superman. :) 
 
Captain Trips foci must cut down the points a lot though, with all those 
limitations? 
 
Richard Scott (rscott@hawaii.edu) 
--You were spectacular, Bob.  But not very effective. 
South Melbourne official when the legendary Bob Pratt failed to win 
South's 1934 best and fairest despite kicking a league record 150 goals. 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 19 19:07:03 1997 
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Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 11:54:30 -0500 
To: Joe Mucchiello <why@mars.superlink.net&> champ-l@omg.org 
From: Tim Haas <wabbit@thewarren.mil.wi.us> 
Subject: Re: Help 
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At 08:45 PM 5/13/97 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>Actually, based on the original question, you might want the RKA to be the 
>major attack since that will cause the focus to lose its abilities. 
>Unfortunately, the focus rules do not tell you how much BODY a focus has, 
>only how much DEF.  In your example of melting a gun, how much BODY would 
>you have to Drain to destroy the gun?  If it is a 2d6 RKA, it has a DEF of 
>3.  The first time you do 4 BODY to the gun it loses one ability, which 
>should be its only ability, the RKA.  (Yes, I know, gun is listed in the 
>Breaking Things rules, but that's a normal gun, what do you do with the 70 
>Active point monstrosity that your High-Tech hero has created?) 
 
  In my campaign, I've made body into something of a figured characteristic. 
For human(oids) I use the formula: 
 
	BODY = (Wt in kg / 12.5) + (Ego/5)  
 
  and allow the player to vary by no more than 3 off of this. Also ALL 
Fractions in the wt figure rd up, only .5 or better rds up in the ego section. 
 
Based on my above formulae most foci have a BODY of 1 with a maximum of 4 
for an incredibly well-built piece (assuming a wt of no more than 12.5 kg). 
Almost all normal guns could be considered well built (street knock off 
excepted). 
 
  What is the Def/Body of a normal gun anyways (my BBB is packed away at 
the moment)? 
 
 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 19 19:25:44 1997 
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Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:21:52 -0700 
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Carnifex 
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At 05:28 PM 5/19/97 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Mon, 19 May 1997, Bryce Berggren wrote: 
> 
>> >Thanks.  I'm mostly done with Captain Trips... can you say "Point 
>> >Monster"? 
>>  
>> If you can build Trips on less than a thousand points, you are a god ... 
>> well, demi-god now, since he's lost Starshine & Moonchild. 
> 
>Lost Moonchild?  When did that happen, who did it? 
> 
 
Actually, in the lastest WC book. Cap'n Trips united his 'friends' and has 
permanently become the Radical now. 
 
 
>BTW: what is the total count of WC books?  Are they still avaliable? 
> 
 
Not sure. I'll see if I can find out though. 
 
-Nic 
 
                +-------------------------------------------------+ 
                |               naneiden@iswest.com               | 
                |         http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/        | 
                |     "Kame...hame..ha!" - Goku, Gohan & Goten    | 
                +-------------------------------------------------+ 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 19 19:35:37 1997 
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From: "Larian" <vmsmith@execpc.com> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Carnifex 
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 17:32:11 -0500 
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---------- 
> From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
> To: champ-l@omg.org 
> Subject: Re: CHAR: Carnifex 
> Date: Monday, May 19, 1997 4:28 PM 
>  
 
> Lost Moonchild?  When did that happen, who did it? 
 
	That one is a mystery to me, as far as i know she was still around as of 
the end of   "Double Solitair" (WC #10) 
 
> BTW: what is the total count of WC books?  Are they still avaliable? 
 
	There are 12 original wildcards books, and at least 3 "Card Sharks" books 
I have 1-10, and im sorry to say they are out of print at the current time. 
 I have tryed every major book store chain i know of to find 11 and 12, but 
sofar NADA!!  maby thats where Moonchild dies, but i don't know! 
 
LATER :) 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 19 20:05:45 1997 
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
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Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 18:08:41 -0500 (CDT) 
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Subject: Wild Cards Characters 
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There's a pretty good version of Black Shadow available on the net somewhere. 
Unfortunately I don't remember the location.  If I remember right, it's 
around 600 or 700 points. 
 
I disagree that jokers would always be lower levels than aces. 
 
I used Bludgeon for quite a while as a goon / thug in my game. His speed 
and dex were closer to average for supers in my game to keep him competitive. 
 
I'd like to see The Sleeper written up.... 
 
Curt 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:10:58 1997 
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Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 18:27:13 -0700 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberhighway.net> 
Subject: Hughes Academy Game 
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Okay, the game is on, I have 10 people interested in playing (?!), but I 
will take more people as I don't have character ideas from everybody.  The 
ones I have seen so far have been pretty interesting (hard to believe from 
this group, eh? :) no creativity in Champs players). 
 
My web page (that feels wierd to say) is at www.cyberhighway.net/~lancec/ 
 
It is not complete yet, but is on it's way rapidly.  The campaign 
information and lots of extraneous info is on there.  My House Rules are 
there too, they aren't particularly key for the game, but they should 
provide a laugh at least. 
 
Let me know what you think (I know some of the links are dead, give me time! :) 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:00 1997 
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	id VIV21722; Mon, 19 May 1997 21:29:15 EDT 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Carnifex 
Message-ID: <19970519.201945.4455.4.dwtoomey@juno.com> 
References: <19970519211156791.AAC236@lizard> 
X-Mailer: Juno 1.15 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-11,13-16 
From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David W Toomey) 
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:29:15 EDT 
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>On a secondary note, I'd be curious to see someone take on the  
>characters that 
>/weren't/ in GURPS Wildcards, particularly Will o' the Wisp, Shad,  
>Crypt-Kicker, 
>and Cameo. (I'd try it myself, but stupidly I traded my Card Sharks  
>books at 
>a paperback exchange, and now I can't seem to get them back). 
 
 
I know Cameo was in Aces Abroad, GURPS second WC sourcebook/adventure. 
 
I'm not sure on the others.  Lots of other interesting characters, 
though. 
 
David Toomey 
dwtoomey@juno.com 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:01 1997 
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Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:36:59 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Carnifex 
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970519222152.00a5ae48@iswest.com> 
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970519213600.27659C-100000@access4.digex.net> 
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On Mon, 19 May 1997, Nic Neidenbach wrote: 
 
> >> If you can build Trips on less than a thousand points, you are a god ... 
> >> well, demi-god now, since he's lost Starshine & Moonchild. 
> > 
> >Lost Moonchild?  When did that happen, who did it? 
>  
> Actually, in the lastest WC book. Cap'n Trips united his 'friends' and has 
> permanently become the Radical now. 
 
What do you know, a happy ending for someone! 
 
> >BTW: what is the total count of WC books?  Are they still avaliable? 
> > 
>  
> Not sure. I'll see if I can find out though. 
 
And what's a Cardshark Book? 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:02 1997 
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Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:35:18 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Carnifex 
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95q.970519115909.8186B-100000@uhunix4> 
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On Mon, 19 May 1997, Richard Scott wrote: 
 
> Captain Trips foci must cut down the points a lot though, with all those 
> limitations? 
 
Well, Captain Trips is obviously Multiform, I guess IIF (little bottles) 
and x number of 1 hour charges.  Yeah, the final cost won't be all *that* 
bad. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:03 1997 
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Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:39:21 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Re: Wild Cards Characters 
In-Reply-To: <199705192308.SAA01044@b04b17.exu.ericsson.se> 
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On Mon, 19 May 1997, Curt Hicks wrote: 
 
>  
> There's a pretty good version of Black Shadow available on the net somewhere. 
> Unfortunately I don't remember the location.  If I remember right, it's 
> around 600 or 700 points. 
 
The Unoffical Champions Character Archive. 
 
> I disagree that jokers would always be lower levels than aces. 
 
So far, quite a few jokers and aces are all around 200 points.  Ti Malice, 
who is a joker/ace looks to be a whopper in the points department. 
 
> I used Bludgeon for quite a while as a goon / thug in my game. His speed 
> and dex were closer to average for supers in my game to keep him competitive. 
 
The version I posted was ment to be a seriously dangerous thug.  I tired 
to give him good defenses to make up for the low DEX.   
 
> I'd like to see The Sleeper written up.... 
 
Wait for it... 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:04 1997 
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Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:50:31 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Cordelia Chassion 
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970519214618.24122A-100000@access2.digex.net> 
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This character is one of the first of the mega-point monsters.  Although 
her actual point total is low (228) most of that is taken up by her RKA 
power.  Cordilia is similar to at least two other characters in this 
series (Demise and Water Lilly) in that they have massivly powerful 
killing attacks that are almost impossible for people to defend against. 
I've decided to go with the final result of these powers (you die) in 
determining exactly how to build them.  If you've got another way, please, 
let me know. 
 
Anyway: 
 
CORDELIA CHAISSON 
 
Designers Notes: 
Cordelia is the young niece of "Sewer" Jack Robinson.  She is tall and 
slim, standing 5'7"and weighing 115 lbs.  She has black hair, dark eyes 
and a pronounced Cajun accent.  Her ace power is the ability to stop her 
target's respitory and cardiac systems, causeing an almost instant (and 
painful) death.  She can also use her power to revive someone who is 
suffering from shock or similar effects, she cannot heal actual wounds. 
Note: Her power could also be simulated by a Body Drain, although some GMs 
may balk at allowing a Drain to actually kill someone.  One could also go 
with a smalller RKA, but add in the Continous advantage.  
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		8		-2 
Dex		13		9 
Con		13		6 
Body		11		2 
Int		15		5 
Ego		15		10 
Pre		10		0 
Com		14		2 
PD		2		0 
ED		2		-1 
Spd		2		0 
Rec		4		0 
End		26		0 
Stun		22		0 
Char Total			31 
Power Total			197 
Total Cost			228 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
135	3d6 RKA, NND (Defenses: Not needing to breathe, non-human cardiac  
	system, not being 'alive'), Does Body (+1), Invisible to Sight 
	(+1/2), 1/2 END, No KB, END 8 
27	9d6 Healing, Invisible to Sight (+1/2), No Range, Not vs actual 
	wounds, only vs shock or similar damage (-1), END 7 
 
3	Bureacratics 11- 
7	Conversation 13- 
2	KS: Cable TV Industry 11- 
3	KS: Rock Music 12- 
3	Persuasion 11- 
2	PS: TV Producer  11- 
3	Seduction 11- 
4	Lang: Cajun French 
8	CSL: +4 with RKA 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
5	DF: Pronounced Cajun Accent 
15	Psych: Stubborn 
15	Psych: Will only use power in dire emergencies 
93	Experience 
 
(Cordelia Chaisson created by Edward Bryant and Leanne C Harper, character 
sheet created by Michael Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:06 1997 
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Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:52:05 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Father Squid 
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FATHER SQUID 
 
Description: 
Father Squid stands about 6' tall and is very broad, weighing close to 270 
lbs.  He is gray skinned , with large hands lined with vestigial suckers. 
Instead of a nose he has a short fall of tentacles.  He is always dressed 
in the manner of a priest and smells faintly like the ocean.  Father 
Squid's powers include immense physical strength and the ability to remain 
underwater for extended periods of time. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		33		23 
Dex		14		12 
Con		23		26 
Body		16		12 
Int		14		4 
Ego		14		8 
Pre		15		5 
Com		6		-2 
PD		10		3 
ED		6		1 
Spd		4		16 
Rec		12		0 
End		46		0 
Stun		45		0 
Char Total			108 
Power Total			70 
Total Cost			178 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
9	Armor: 3 DEF (Thick skin) 
10	Life Support: No Need to Breath, 1 Recoverable Charge of 1 Hour 
8	Running: +4" (Total 10"), END 2 
1	Swimming: +1" (Total: 3") 
 
1	Perk: Priest 
9	Demolitions 14- 
6	KS: Theology 15- 
5	Oratory 13- 
3	Paramedic 12- 
3	Streetwise 12- 
5	Survival 13- 
2	WF: Small Arms 
2	Lang: Church Latin 
6	CSL: +2 with Block, Disarm, Punch 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
5	DF: Smells faintly of the sea 
10	DF: Gray skinned joker with tentacles where his nose should be 
15	Psych: Sense of Duty to help _all_ jokers 
10	Psych: Secretive about past 
38	Experience 
 
(Father Squid created by John J Miller, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:08 1997 
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Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:56:27 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: The Harlem Hammer 
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THE HARLEM HAMMER 
(Mordecai Albert "Kai" Jones) 
 
Description: 
The Hammer is tall and *very* heavy, standing 6'1" and weighing 475 lbs. 
His wildcard power has granted massive physical strength, and virtual 
immunity to physical harm.  It has also altered his metabolism, replacing 
his skeletal structure with heavy metal compounds and allowing him to 
regenerate from any actually physical damage that does occur to him.  He 
barely has to sleep, is virtually tireless and is somewhat faster than 
normal people.  The Hammer prefers to keep out of the public eye.  He 
thinks of himself as a joker and wants little to do with the typical ace 
'heroics'.  Note: the Hammer's regeneration wil not work on damage due to 
his dependency.  
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		53		38 
Dex		17		21 
Con		25		30 
Body		25		30 
Int		23		13 
Ego		18		16 
Pre		20		10 
Com		12		1 
PD		30		19 
ED		30		25 
Spd		4		13 
Rec		15		0 
End		50		0 
Stun		62		0 
Char Total			216 
Power Total			94 
Total Cost			310 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
7	Density Increase: 1 Level, 0 END, Persistant, Always On 
	+5 STR, +1 PD/ED, -1" KB, x2 Mass; 6'1" Tall, 475 lbs  
30	Damage Resistance: Full 
6	Life Support: Immune to Disease, Doesn't Sleep 
8	Regeneration: 1 BODY per Minute (-1/4) 
13	1/2 END on STR, END 3 
 
5	Perk: Wealth 
3	KS: Automobiles and Automotive repair 14- 
3	KS: Assorted esoteric information and trivia 14- 
9	Mechanics 14- 
2	PS: Auto Mechanic 11- 
3	Trading 13- 
2	TF: Large Ground Vehicles, Tracked Vehicles 
3	CSL: +1 with Block, Haymaker, Punch 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
15	Phys: Dependence upon heavy metal salts once per day, or take 1 
	BODY per hour (Regen will *not* heal this damage) 
10	Phys: Increased metabolism: eats four times the human norm, body  
	temperature of 106 degrees 
15	Psych: Dislikes Doctors, Scientists, Hospitals and Laboratories 
10	Psych: Prefers to be left to himself 
10	Rep: Harlem Hammer; One of the worlds strongest men 11- 
150	Experience Bonus 
 
(Harlem Hammer created by Victor Milan, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:09 1997 
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Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:54:09 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Golden Boy 
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GOLDEN BOY 
(Jack Braun) 
 
Description: 
Golden Boy is tall, standing 6'2" and broad, weighing 190 lbs.  He's blond 
haired, blue eyed, muscular and good looking.  He's possibly the strongest 
man in the world.  His force field, which has a golden glow when it's 
active, grants him immunity from just about *anything*.  He is especially 
resistant to physical impacts, such as bullets and fists.  (Note the extra 
PD should only be applied to 'blunt' impacts, such as bullets, fists, most 
thrown objects, etc.  Golden Boy should not get this extra PD vs sonic 
attacks, falls or any physical attack with the AP advantage.)  Golden Boy 
doesn't age, and looks to be 25, despite being born in 1924.  As one of 
the original Four Aces (aka the Exotics for Democracy), he fought fascism 
in the late 40's.  When dragged before HUAC in the 50's, he collapsed and 
became a "friendly" witness.  This has resulted in him being a 'marked 
man' in the ace community, an image that hasn't totally left him with 
time. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		53		43 
Dex		21		33 
Con		20		20 
Body		14		8 
Int		10		0 
Ego		8		-2 
Pre		18		8 
Com		18		4 
PD		10		-1 
ED		10		6 
Spd		5		19 
Rec		15		0 
End		40		0 
Stun		51		0 
Char Total			138 
Power Total			171 
Total Cost			309 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
60	Force Field: +20 PD/ED, 0 END 
33	+50 PD vs physical impacts only (-1/4), Not vs falls (-1/4) 
6	Life Support: Immune to Aging, Immune to Disease 
4	Running: +2" (8" total) 
13	1/2 END on STR, END 3 
 
15	Wealth 
3	Acrobatics 13- 
3	Acting 13- 
3	Breakfall 13- 
5	Gambling 12- 
7	KS: Politics 16- 
1	PS: Actor 8- 
1	PS: Farming 8- 
2	PS: Real Estate 11- 
3	Seduction 13- 
3	Tactics 11- 
5	Trading 14- 
1	TF: Small Planes 
2	WF: Small Arms 
1	Lang: German  
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
20	Psych: Overconfident, willing to tackle anything singlehandedly 
10	Psych: Lecherous, prides himself as a 'ladies man' 
10	Psych: Reckless, tends to act first, think later 
10	Psych: Guilt complex over his past 
10	Rep: The 'Judas' Ace, ext 8-  
149	Experience 
 
(Golden Boy created by Walter John Williams, character sheet created by 
Michael Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:11 1997 
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Subject: Re: real world martial art 
Message-ID: <19970519.192425.4022.6.TamOlyn@juno.com> 
References: <3.0.1.32.19970514232336.006f3ce4@pop-gw.homeshopping.com.br> 
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From: tamolyn@juno.com (Michael S Mears) 
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:28:14 EDT 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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High-level military in the US also are given exposure to JKD and 
Hwarangdo. 
 
Michael Scott Mears 
TamOlyn@juno.com 
SB,>-- 
 
 
On Wed, 14 May 1997 22:45:39 -0500 Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
writes: 
>Rafael Sant'Anna Meyer wrote: 
>>  
>>         Well if he is member of Mossad he'll receive Krav Manga  
>training. If he's 
>> member of MI-5 ,MI-6 or any type of Military Secret Service he'll  
>receive a 
>> military training and some training in Jiu Jitsu or Aikido. If he'll  
>be 
>> member of CIA he'll receive Aikido and Karate training and a lot of  
>anatomy 
>> class to learn where really hurts B) . 
> 
>What is the Mossad? 
> 
>This character is actually one I'm helping another player build.  
>Interestingly enough, in the draft that *I* did of the character, I  
>gave 
>him Jujutsu (spelled as in UMA.. not sure if its correct).  The player 
>ended up using Aikido (mainly because its the 'art' that Steven Segal 
>uses in his movies, and thats basically the type of character he 
>wanted). 
> 
>Would anatomy class qualify him for find weakness??   ;) 
> 
> 
> 
>Todd 
> 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:12 1997 
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Subject: Re: real world martial art 
Message-ID: <19970519.192425.4022.2.TamOlyn@juno.com> 
References: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970516140434.18008I-100000@james.stud.ntnu.no> 
X-Mailer: Juno 1.15 
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From: tamolyn@juno.com (Michael S Mears) 
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:28:14 EDT 
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"Best" how? 
 
Michael Scott Mears 
TamOlyn@juno.com 
SB,>-- 
 
 
On Fri, 16 May 1997 14:05:05 +0200 (MET DST) Jens-Arthur Leirbakk 
<leirbakk@stud.ntnu.no> writes: 
> 
> 
>On Thu, 15 May 1997, Stephen B. Mann wrote: 
>> > From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
>> > What is the Mossad? 
>>  
>>      Israeli spy agency. Small, but with an impressive reputation.  
>I've 
>> heard it referred to as the best in the world. YMMV 
>>  
> 
>Bah :) The best agency in the world, is Kempai. *They're* small, and  
>the 
>best in the world. :)) 
> 
>                 =============================================== 
>                 =            Jens-Arthur Leirbakk             = 
>                 =       e-mail: leirbakk@stud.ntnu.no         = 
>                 = http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~leirbakk/index.html = 
>                 =    Smash forehead on keyboard to continue   = 
>                 =============================================== 
> 
> 
> 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:14 1997 
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Subject: Re: real world martial art 
Message-ID: <19970519.192425.4022.5.TamOlyn@juno.com> 
References: <1.5.4.32.19970515062748.006763f4@mailhost.cyberhighway.net> 
X-Mailer: Juno 1.15 
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From: tamolyn@juno.com (Michael S Mears) 
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:28:14 EDT 
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The Israelis also use their extremely fine Paratroops for covert 
operations. 
 
Michael Scott Mears 
TamOlyn@juno.com 
SB,>-- 
 
 
On Wed, 14 May 1997 23:27:48 -0700 Christopher Taylor 
<ctaylor@cyberhighway.net> writes: 
> 
> 
>>> What is the Mossad? 
>> 
>>     Israeli spy agency. Small, but with an impressive reputation.  
>I've 
>>heard it referred to as the best in the world. YMMV 
> 
>Their reputation got greatly inflated after a hostage event in the  
>70's. 
>Mossad is certainly the best for their budget and size. 
> 
>---------------------------------------------------------- 
>Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
>Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
>----------------------------------------------------------- 
> 
> 
> 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:15 1997 
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Subject: Re: real world martial art 
Message-ID: <19970519.192425.4022.4.TamOlyn@juno.com> 
References: <1.5.4.16.19970516131340.28177e42@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
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From: tamolyn@juno.com (Michael S Mears) 
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:28:14 EDT 
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I'm sorry, but tae kwon do is really more a sport than a style of 
fighting.  If you've seen their olympic contests, you can understand why. 
 
A really integrated, effective, martial art needs to be good in all four 
ranges, and must include a study of transitional techniques.  It simply 
isn't good enough to be a puncher, a kicker, a trapper, or a grappler.  
These ranges are important, but transition from one to the other smoothly 
is more important.  And overarching these considerations is your ability 
to gauge your opponent. 
 
So I wind up evaluating Role-Playing games by how well they consider 
hand-to-hand combat.  Everyone has a hobby, and a different set of 
criteria.  SB,>-- 
Michael Scott Mears 
TamOlyn@juno.com 
SB,>-- 
 
 
On Fri, 16 May 1997 13:07:59 +1000 michael <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
writes: 
> 
>>> 'tough man'- neither of these people are in any way practically  
>trained - 
>>> why do you think that gracy guy made dog-meat of the competition in  
>that 
>>> goofy UFC thing you had? 
>> 
>>Actually, Royce Gracie made dog meat out of those guys because in 
>>champions terms he had a style they were totally unfamiliar with and  
>they 
>>could not handle.  Ryoce has not competed in years and others with  
>his 
>>style do not do nearly so well since people know what to expect. 
>> 
> 
>I think they would have the same problem with any real artist.  
> 
> 
>>Anyway, what was so goofy about it.  NHB fighting is the closest  
>thing you 
>>will get to a sport that shows what martial arts style -really- works  
>one 
>>on one:) 
>> 
>> 
>how about thai-style kickboxing? and besides, the nhb styles i've seen  
>are crap,  
>particularly they don't have any technique - if there was good  
>technique, every second  
>fight would include a serious injury, like taekwondo in korea, only  
>worse.AND they still have refs, and it's pretty obvious that the  
>fighters are told to 'take yer time', as the saying goes. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:16 1997 
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Subject: Re: real world martial art 
Message-ID: <19970519.192425.4022.3.TamOlyn@juno.com> 
References: <Pine.GSO.3.95q.970516013816.176D-100000@iquest7> 
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From: tamolyn@juno.com (Michael S Mears) 
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:28:14 EDT 
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The problem with muay thai is that they don't practice ground-fighting.  
If you shoot their legs, they're in trouble.  Not that it's easy to do. 
 
Michael Scott Mears 
TamOlyn@juno.com 
SB,>-- 
 
 
On Fri, 16 May 1997 01:39:45 -0500 (EST) Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
writes: 
>> I once saw via satellite a competition that was from Thailand.   
>(Mind 
>> you that this was a real competition and not a movie) After a small  
>warm 
>> up for the fighters (All of which were using various forms but not  
>over 
>> 5'8") which for the Kick Boxers were a good few kicks to a concrete 
>> column.  In the very first fight the first move was a kick to the  
>head 
>> that not only broke the opponents arm (he blocked) but it smashed up  
>his 
>> nose as well.  The second kick Ko'ed him real quick.  The whole  
>thing 
>> lasted for less than 10 seconds.  There was a no killing rule from  
>what 
>> I could tell, but it didn't matter how close they were to death only 
>> that they didn't die.  In ten fights there were more broken bones  
>and 
>> major medical problems than Seeker has had on all the covers of all  
>the 
>> Champs books.  It was certainly not a "take your time" competition. 
> 
>Sounds alot like muy thai.  I recall they used to fight those with  
>ground 
>glass in their hand wrappings.  Very brutal fights.  The muy thai  
>fighers 
>who have crossed over into boxing have usually shown the same high 
>resistence to pain that this sort of fighting requires. 
> 
>TokyoMark 
> 
> 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:18 1997 
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Subject: Re: real world martial art 
Message-ID: <19970519.192425.4022.7.TamOlyn@juno.com> 
References: <01IITL43CC82003IX1@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
X-Mailer: Juno 1.15 
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From: tamolyn@juno.com (Michael S Mears) 
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:28:14 EDT 
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Lots of cops take hapkido -- lots of joint techniques, comealongs, etc.  
Prevents, or at least lessens lawsuits.  This is not a consideration in 
the military, but is for Secret Service. 
 
Michael Scott Mears 
TamOlyn@juno.com 
SB,>-- 
 
 
On Tue, 13 May 1997 12:49:10 +1000 michael <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
writes: 
>At 08:37 PM 5/12/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>>Todd Hanson wrote: 
>>>  
>>> This question is more for the martial arts experts than the hero 
>>> experts.. 
>>  
>>> I'm working on a character whose background is kind of a 
>>> secret-service/govt agent type.  I want to give him martial arts,  
>but 
>>> I'm not sure what 'real world' martial art would be appropriate.   
>What 
>>> kind of training would a govt agent (or secret serviceman) receive? 
>> 
>>I have a fairly diverse background in the martial arts and have  
>trained 
>>in several schools.  I think the real snswer to your question  
>involves 
>>your character concept more than anything else.  The martial arts  
>rules 
>>in Champions are not very diverse.. i.e. you take a particular move  
>or 
>>set of moves that is the same regardless what martial art style you 
>>practice.. Offensive strike is offensive strike no matter what your 
>>school calls it.  
> 
>no, you can furnish a strike with extra dc's and csl's if you want:  
>i'ts the 
>point of the game-yes? 
> 
> 
>>The real answer to your question lies in your 
>>character's attitude.  Why is he a student of the martial arts?  What 
>>school did he choose to study in?  Why did he pick this school?  I  
>have 
>>seen everything from instructors who consider the martial arts more  
>of a 
>>self development art or sport and neglect the finer details of  
>fighting 
>>and confrontation .. and I have seen schools where a bloody nose is a 
>>nightly occurrance.   
>> 
>haw about: which school did his agency choose to study, based on real 
>practical value? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>Every martial artist is influenced by his instructor in some way.  I 
>>knew one junior instructor who was a street scrapper as a kid.  His 
>>total focus was on hitting and taking a hit.  Certain students 
>>gravitated towards him and others he drove away like flies.  Another 
>>instructor was very calm, patient and gentle.  His students were 
>>technically perfect but could not last five minutes in the sparring 
>>ring.  They were not prepared for conflict and had not been taught to 
>>look for weaknesses in their opponents.   
> 
> 
>actually, if they were "perfect", they should have been able to do  
>just 
>that- as well as hitting a lot harder than less 'technical' students .  
>.. 
> 
> 
>>I stood somewhere in the 
>>middle.  My students were taught fighting as an art for self-defense.  
> 
>>Dynamics such as taking the initiative, where to strike to take the 
>>fight out of your opponent, and above all control of their emotions  
>and 
>>techniques. I am not saying my way is right.. the point I am making  
>is 
>>that three separate instructors are going to turn out three different 
>>types of martial artists and all from the same school. 
>> 
> 
>but are all of them practical? no, and only a good, skilled, and  
>practical 
>style  
>would be adopted by such an agency- yours, in other words, is the only  
>one 
>which need apply. 
> 
> 
>>For a government agent.. control is the most important element.  You 
>>have to be able to decide whether your opponent is truly a threat or 
>>not.  You have to decide this in a split second and you have to react  
>on 
>>that decision.  Obviously the wrong decision is disasterous.   
> 
>are we talkin' spooks or nurses?? the agent in question is not going  
>to 
>bother trying  
>to be gantle- if they are cleared to kill(in self-defense) they will,  
>no 
>question.  
> 
> 
> 
>>Decide on 
>>who your character is and how the martial arts relate to his personal 
>>beliefs and your question will be answered.  Did he just walk out of  
>a 
>>tough-man competition, is he the national forms champion, or does he 
>>possess the wisdom and patience of a true master? 
>> 
>he's an agent, isn't he?? he will have been trained to kill and  
>restrain, 
>and he would not be trained by a wimpy forms expert, or an even  
>wimpier 
>'tough man'- neither of these people are in any way practically  
>trained - 
>why do you think that gracy guy made dog-meat of the competition in  
>that 
>goofy UFC thing you had? 
> 
>PS: there is no such thing as a true master. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:20 1997 
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From: tamolyn@juno.com (Michael S Mears) 
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:28:14 EDT 
X-To: hero-l@october.com 
X-Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: real world martial art 
Message-Id: <19970519.192425.4022.2.TamOlyn@juno.com> 
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"Best" how? 
 
Michael Scott Mears 
TamOlyn@juno.com 
SB,>-- 
 
 
On Fri, 16 May 1997 14:05:05 +0200 (MET DST) Jens-Arthur Leirbakk 
<leirbakk@stud.ntnu.no> writes: 
> 
> 
>On Thu, 15 May 1997, Stephen B. Mann wrote: 
>> > From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
>> > What is the Mossad? 
>>  
>>      Israeli spy agency. Small, but with an impressive reputation.  
>I've 
>> heard it referred to as the best in the world. YMMV 
>>  
> 
>Bah :) The best agency in the world, is Kempai. *They're* small, and  
>the 
>best in the world. :)) 
> 
>                 =============================================== 
>                 =            Jens-Arthur Leirbakk             = 
>                 =       e-mail: leirbakk@stud.ntnu.no         = 
>                 = http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~leirbakk/index.html = 
>                 =    Smash forehead on keyboard to continue   = 
>                 =============================================== 
> 
> 
> 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:21 1997 
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From: tamolyn@juno.com (Michael S Mears) 
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:28:14 EDT 
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Subject: Re: real world martial art 
Message-Id: <19970519.192425.4022.5.TamOlyn@juno.com> 
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The Israelis also use their extremely fine Paratroops for covert 
operations. 
 
Michael Scott Mears 
TamOlyn@juno.com 
SB,>-- 
 
 
On Wed, 14 May 1997 23:27:48 -0700 Christopher Taylor 
<ctaylor@cyberhighway.net> writes: 
> 
> 
>>> What is the Mossad? 
>> 
>>     Israeli spy agency. Small, but with an impressive reputation.  
>I've 
>>heard it referred to as the best in the world. YMMV 
> 
>Their reputation got greatly inflated after a hostage event in the  
>70's. 
>Mossad is certainly the best for their budget and size. 
> 
>---------------------------------------------------------- 
>Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
>Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
>----------------------------------------------------------- 
> 
> 
> 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:22 1997 
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Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 19:22:15 -0500 
From: ghost@softfarm.com (Bryce Berggren) 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Carnifex 
Message-ID: <19970520025920503.AAA233@lizard> 
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At 05:28 PM 5/19/97 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Mon, 19 May 1997, Bryce Berggren wrote: 
> 
>> >Thanks.  I'm mostly done with Captain Trips... can you say "Point 
>> >Monster"? 
>>  
>> If you can build Trips on less than a thousand points, you are a god ... 
>> well, demi-god now, since he's lost Starshine & Moonchild. 
> 
>Lost Moonchild?  When did that happen, who did it? 
 
In the Card Sharks series. My memories are fuzzy (time to track these books 
down again), but essentially Moonchild was forced to do something nasty she 
hadn't wanted to, and went catatonic on poor Mark. 
 
>BTW: what is the total count of WC books?  Are they still avaliable? 
 
Lessee ... Wildcards, Aces High, Jokers Wild, Aces Abroad, Down & Dirty, Ace 
In the Hole, Dead Man's Hand, One-Eyed Jacks, Jokertown Shuffle, Assault on 
the Rox, the Tachyon goes home novel, and the three Card Sharks ... I think 
that's all of them. 
 
>> Only 170?? :) Have you tried Popinjay yet? Just your normal everyday 
>> heroic-level 
>> character ... except for a 420 pt. Active Point power. And I actually think 
>> my version of him may have skimped. 
> 
>Well, no, but I can see how it is a disgustingly powerful attack.  What 
>did you do?  I was going to try Extra-Dimensional Movement, Ranged, 
>Useable on Others. 
 
EDM? Kinduva cheat ... 'course, I had kinduva cheat too, so pot/kettle. I 
bit the bullet and gave him Teleport, tons of noncombat, Invisible to Sight 
(it makes a sound and it has a psychic signature, but if you don't know 
Jay's around you don't know what happened), UAO but only UAO, with Gestures 
and a -1/4 limitation to represent the fact that he has to be familiar with 
the location. Hmmm ... come to think of it, I should have bought him a bunch 
of floating locations instead of the -1/4. (Of course, this construction 
only works because my group dumped the pointless extra phase bit on 
noncombat teleport, which a lot of people wouldn't agree with, so ...). 
 
>> The other interesting thing is DEX, or lack their of.  Most of 
>> >these guys look to have a DEX of about 18 and a SPD of 4, which means that 
>> >true stat monsters like Carnifex and Moonchild *really* stand out. 
>>  
>> True ... although I've noted your conversions are coming out a bit more 
zapped 
>> up then my own. I've deflated the DEX/SPD equation a bit, which means someone 
>> like Turtle is likely to end up with around 11 DEX/3 SPD ... but Carnifex is 
>> still 24/6. 
> 
>I'm using the conversion notes from Fantasy Hero for stats.  Basically you 
>do this: (GURPS stat x 2) - 10.  It sorta works, except for STR. 
 
Ahh ... I'd wondered about that ... for STR, I've been using Extra Effort 
Lift (normal lift is multiplied by 10% x STR-16) to compare to the STR chart 
in HERO. 
 
>> On a secondary note, I'd be curious to see someone take on the characters 
that 
>> /weren't/ in GURPS Wildcards, particularly Will o' the Wisp, Shad, 
Crypt-Kicker, 
>> and Cameo. (I'd try it myself, but stupidly I traded my Card Sharks books at 
>> a paperback exchange, and now I can't seem to get them back). 
> 
>Problem is, most of these guys didn't get a lot of screen time.  The guy 
>that would scare me would be, uh... what ever Snotman called himself after 
>Typhod Croyd got done with him.  *HE* was scary!. 
 
Reflector. Iggghh ... 
 
Actually, Cameo gets quite a bit of play in CardSharks as I recall, and Shad 
and Crypt-Kicker play fairly big roles in the Rox cycle. Will o' the Wisp 
has a story to himself in the first Sharks novel, but he dies, so that puts 
a damper on his usefulness. :) 
 
> >> If you can build Trips on less than a thousand points, you are a god ... 
> >> well, demi-god now, since he's lost Starshine & Moonchild. 
> > 
> >Lost Moonchild?  When did that happen, who did it? 
>  
>> Actually, in the lastest WC book. Cap'n Trips united his 'friends' and has 
>> permanently become the Radical now. 
 
>What do you know, a happy ending for someone! 
 
You've got a funny idea of a happy ending. :) Basically put, the Radical's a 
24 karat jerk. Almost any of his 'friends' are better people ... and when 
that includes CT and Aquarian, those are strong words. 
 
> And what's a Cardshark Book? 
 
I'd like to think they're an apology for One-Eyed Jacks and Jokertown 
Shuffle. :)  Seriously, to make this as short as possible, the Wild Cards 
Trust switched publishers, and their first trilogy (only trilogy? say it 
ain't so!) with the new publisher involved a worldwide conspiracy called the 
Card Sharks, who are trying to eradicate the Wild Card virus and anyone 
infected by it. The first book traces the history of the Card Sharks to 
present day, and the next two deal with their present plan. Hartmann, 
Bradley Finn, the Ackroyd agency, and a couple other people find out what's 
going on, and try to stop it. 
 
H. G. 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:24 1997 
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Date: 	Mon, 19 May 1997 16:56:54 -1000 
From: Richard Scott <rscott@hawaii.edu> 
X-Sender: rscott@uhunix4 
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Subject: Captain Trips 
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also with the limitation of consecutive uses causes 
personality/psychological problems, as well? 
 
Richard Scott (rscott@hawaii.edu) 
--You were spectacular, Bob.  But not very effective. 
South Melbourne official when the legendary Bob Pratt failed to win 
South's 1934 best and fairest despite kicking a league record 150 goals. 
 
On Mon, 19 May 1997, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> On Mon, 19 May 1997, Richard Scott wrote: 
>  
> > Captain Trips foci must cut down the points a lot though, with all those 
> > limitations? 
>  
> Well, Captain Trips is obviously Multiform, I guess IIF (little bottles) 
> and x number of 1 hour charges.  Yeah, the final cost won't be all *that* 
> bad. 
>  
> *************************************************************************** 
> * "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
> *               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
> *            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
> * Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
> *************************************************************************** 
>  
>  
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:25 1997 
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Date: 	Mon, 19 May 1997 17:08:51 -1000 
From: Richard Scott <rscott@hawaii.edu> 
X-Sender: rscott@uhunix4 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Wild Cards Characters 
In-Reply-To: <199705192308.SAA01044@b04b17.exu.ericsson.se> 
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No, no talways, but your average joker is just a person with some oddities 
that might give 'powers' i.e. claws, scaly hide, whatever. 
 
Richard Scott (rscott@hawaii.edu) 
--You were spectacular, Bob.  But not very effective. 
South Melbourne official when the legendary Bob Pratt failed to win 
South's 1934 best and fairest despite kicking a league record 150 goals. 
 
On Mon, 19 May 1997, Curt Hicks wrote: 
 
>  
> There's a pretty good version of Black Shadow available on the net somewhere. 
> Unfortunately I don't remember the location.  If I remember right, it's 
> around 600 or 700 points. 
>  
> I disagree that jokers would always be lower levels than aces. 
>  
> I used Bludgeon for quite a while as a goon / thug in my game. His speed 
> and dex were closer to average for supers in my game to keep him competitive. 
>  
> I'd like to see The Sleeper written up.... 
>  
> Curt 
>  
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:27 1997 
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Date: 	Mon, 19 May 1997 17:05:00 -1000 
From: Richard Scott <rscott@hawaii.edu> 
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Subject: Re: CHAR: Carnifex 
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guess I haven't seen that one yet.  Card Sharks is the second cycle of 
Wild Cards books, the next however many up to 12, I guess.  Good stuff. :) 
 
Richard Scott (rscott@hawaii.edu) 
--You were spectacular, Bob.  But not very effective. 
South Melbourne official when the legendary Bob Pratt failed to win 
South's 1934 best and fairest despite kicking a league record 150 goals. 
 
On Mon, 19 May 1997, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> On Mon, 19 May 1997, Nic Neidenbach wrote: 
>  
> > >> If you can build Trips on less than a thousand points, you are a god ... 
> > >> well, demi-god now, since he's lost Starshine & Moonchild. 
> > > 
> > >Lost Moonchild?  When did that happen, who did it? 
> >  
> > Actually, in the lastest WC book. Cap'n Trips united his 'friends' and has 
> > permanently become the Radical now. 
>  
> What do you know, a happy ending for someone! 
>  
> > >BTW: what is the total count of WC books?  Are they still avaliable? 
> > > 
> >  
> > Not sure. I'll see if I can find out though. 
>  
> And what's a Cardshark Book? 
>  
> *************************************************************************** 
> * "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
> *               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
> *            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
> * Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
> *************************************************************************** 
>  
>  
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:28 1997 
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Date: 	Mon, 19 May 1997 17:03:59 -1000 
From: Richard Scott <rscott@hawaii.edu> 
X-Sender: rscott@uhunix4 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Carnifex 
In-Reply-To: <19970519.201945.4455.4.dwtoomey@juno.com> 
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yes, we could take a whack at them - I have some books here, but not the 
Champions ones. :) 
 
Richard Scott (rscott@hawaii.edu) 
--You were spectacular, Bob.  But not very effective. 
South Melbourne official when the legendary Bob Pratt failed to win 
South's 1934 best and fairest despite kicking a league record 150 goals. 
 
On Mon, 19 May 1997, David W Toomey wrote: 
 
>  
> >On a secondary note, I'd be curious to see someone take on the  
> >characters that 
> >/weren't/ in GURPS Wildcards, particularly Will o' the Wisp, Shad,  
> >Crypt-Kicker, 
> >and Cameo. (I'd try it myself, but stupidly I traded my Card Sharks  
> >books at 
> >a paperback exchange, and now I can't seem to get them back). 
>  
>  
> I know Cameo was in Aces Abroad, GURPS second WC sourcebook/adventure. 
>  
> I'm not sure on the others.  Lots of other interesting characters, 
> though. 
>  
> David Toomey 
> dwtoomey@juno.com 
>  
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:29 1997 
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From: Tim Statler <tstatler@igateway.net> 
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 09:06:35 -0700 
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Subject: Re: real world martial art 
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Stephen B. Mann wrote: 
>  
> > From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
> > What is the Mossad? 
>  
>      Israeli spy agency. Small, but with an impressive reputation. I've 
> heard it referred to as the best in the world. YMMV 
 
As to their reputation: 
 
 After the Israeli atheltes were killed at the Munich olympics (Do I 
have the right one, I'm going from memory), the Mossad vowed revenge. 
 
10 years later, the last terrorist turned himself in to either Israeli 
or Western European police and admitted his crimes. It seems that all 
the others hafd been killed, no matter what safety precautions taken. 
Mossad isn't fast but they ARE lethal. 
 
Tim Statler 
 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:30 1997 
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Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:23:48 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Carnifex 
In-Reply-To: <19970520025920503.AAA233@lizard> 
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On Mon, 19 May 1997, Bryce Berggren wrote: 
 
> >> If you can build Trips on less than a thousand points, you are a god ... 
> >> well, demi-god now, since he's lost Starshine & Moonchild. 
> > 
> >Lost Moonchild?  When did that happen, who did it? 
>  
> In the Card Sharks series. My memories are fuzzy (time to track these books 
> down again), but essentially Moonchild was forced to do something nasty she 
> hadn't wanted to, and went catatonic on poor Mark. 
 
That's depressing.  Moonchild was one of my favorite Cpt Trips 'friends' 
 
> >BTW: what is the total count of WC books?  Are they still avaliable? 
>  
> Lessee ... Wildcards, Aces High, Jokers Wild, Aces Abroad, Down & Dirty, Ace 
> In the Hole, Dead Man's Hand, One-Eyed Jacks, Jokertown Shuffle, Assault on 
> the Rox, the Tachyon goes home novel, and the three Card Sharks ... I think 
> that's all of them. 
 
Hmmm... I've got books 1-10.  Tachyon goes home is "Double Solitaire", 
while the assualt on the Rox book is "Dealer's Choice".  There's also a 
Captain Trips book, with him going to Nam... we get to meat another 
friend.. "Monster" (who reminded me of the Overfeind).  I should try and 
permenently 'borrow' the ones I'm missing from a friend of mine... 
 
> >Well, no, but I can see how it is a disgustingly powerful attack.  What 
> >did you do?  I was going to try Extra-Dimensional Movement, Ranged, 
> >Useable on Others. 
>  
> EDM? Kinduva cheat ...  
 
Well, Popinjay is going to be described as a "GMs Special" anyway... 
 
> >I'm using the conversion notes from Fantasy Hero for stats.  Basically you 
> >do this: (GURPS stat x 2) - 10.  It sorta works, except for STR. 
>  
> Ahh ... I'd wondered about that ... for STR, I've been using Extra Effort 
> Lift (normal lift is multiplied by 10% x STR-16) to compare to the STR chart 
> in HERO. 
 
I forget what I used exactly to figure my STR chart, but I do have one. 
I'll post it when I'm all done.  BTW: using the FH conversion formula, 
Turtle will have an 11 DEX and a 3 SPD. 
 
> >Problem is, most of these guys didn't get a lot of screen time.  The guy 
> >that would scare me would be, uh... what ever Snotman called himself after 
> >Typhod Croyd got done with him.  *HE* was scary!. 
>  
> Reflector. Iggghh ... 
 
The scene that got me was where he absorbed the impact of a *train* and 
all the extra energy bled off of him in the form of lightning... 
 
> > >Lost Moonchild?  When did that happen, who did it? 
> >  
> >> Actually, in the lastest WC book. Cap'n Trips united his 'friends' and has 
> >> permanently become the Radical now. 
>  
> >What do you know, a happy ending for someone! 
>  
> You've got a funny idea of a happy ending. :) Basically put, the Radical's a 
> 24 karat jerk. Almost any of his 'friends' are better people ... and when 
> that includes CT and Aquarian, those are strong words. 
 
Oh well, I hadn't read the book, I just guessed. 
 
> > And what's a Cardshark Book? 
>  
> I'd like to think they're an apology for One-Eyed Jacks and Jokertown 
> Shuffle. :)  Seriously, to make this as short as possible, the Wild Cards 
> Trust switched publishers, and their first trilogy (only trilogy? say it 
> ain't so!) with the new publisher involved a worldwide conspiracy called the 
> Card Sharks, who are trying to eradicate the Wild Card virus and anyone 
> infected by it. The first book traces the history of the Card Sharks to 
> present day, and the next two deal with their present plan. Hartmann, 
> Bradley Finn, the Ackroyd agency, and a couple other people find out what's 
> going on, and try to stop it. 
 
Sounds pretty cool. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:32 1997 
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Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:56:12 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: The Sleeper 
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970519235400.21054A-100000@access1.digex.net> 
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<snicker> This guy was easy!  Reminded me of the DC Heroes write up for 
the Phantom Stranger in that Ambush Bug adventure... 
 
THE SLEEPER 
(Croyd Crenson) 
 
Designers Notes: 
The Sleeper is so named due to the nature of his power; when ever he falls 
asleep, his body changes into a new form.  Usually, he sleeps for several 
weeks, and then awakens, remaining awake for several weeks.  The Sleeper 
has a new body each time he wakes, often with a few joker features, and is 
usually a powerful ace.  His typical powers are great strength and 
enhanced dexterity and speed.  Due to the nature of his powers, the 
Sleeper fears sleep.  He is terrified of eventually waking up in a hideous 
joker body that will either die before he sleeps again, or that won't need 
to sleep at all.  He pops pills constantly, and will usually turn into a 
ravening, paranoid maniac before crashing at the end of his waking period.   
 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		varies, but usually is 30+ 
Dex		varies, but usually is 20+ 
Con		varies		 
Body		varies		 
Int		14		4 
Ego		14		8 
Pre		varies		 
Com		varies		 
PD		varies		 
ED		varies		 
Spd		varies, usually 4+ 
Rec		varies		 
End		varies		 
Stun		varies		 
Char Total			na 
Power Total			na 
Total Cost			na 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
	Powers vary from waking cycle to waking cycle.  The Sleeper is 
often very strong and resistant to damage.  His other powers (if he has 
any) vary greatly. 
 
Standard powers and skills: 
3	Life Support: Immune to aging 
2	Running: +1" (often more) 
 
10	Wealth 
5	AK: New York City 14- 
7	Gambling 13- 
?	Lockpicking 14- 
?	High Society 12- 
5	Security Systems 13- 
9	Shadowing 14- 
?	Sleight of Hand ? 
?	Stealth ? 
?	Streetwise 16- 
15	CSL: +3 with HTH combat 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
20	Phys: Addicted to Amphetamines 
15	Psych: Addicted to Amphetamines 
15	Psych: Reckless 
15	Psych: Terrified of Sleeping 
15	Rep: The Sleeper, a violent freelance criminal and plague 
	spreader, Ext 11- 
 
(The Sleeper created by Roger Zelazny, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:34 1997 
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Subject: Re: real world martial art 
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At 01:27 AM 5/19/97 +0000, you wrote: 
>At 10:58 AM 5/17/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
>>how about thai, cross-trained with judo? the best fighter is always a 
>hybrid, and i don't mean those fat boys in the ucf who pretend they can kick.  
> 
> 
>Um, just to point out something, judo is the sport form of juijitsu.  
> 
WRONG. jujitsu is a completly different art, and not nearly as effective. 
 
 
>:) 
> 
> 
> 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:35 1997 
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At 10:28 PM 5/19/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>I'm sorry, but tae kwon do is really more a sport than a style of 
>fighting.  If you've seen their olympic contests, you can understand why. 
yes, but that's tournament tqd, NOT meant for self-defense!!! 
 
 
> 
>A really integrated, effective, martial art needs to be good in all four 
>ranges, and must include a study of transitional techniques.  It simply 
>isn't good enough to be a puncher, a kicker, a trapper, or a grappler.  
>These ranges are important, but transition from one to the other smoothly 
>is more important.  And overarching these considerations is your ability 
>to gauge your opponent. 
 
NO! if you try to teach everything, all you get is a sloppy fighter. That is why the best arts focus on one area - -judo, thai kickboxing, kendo, various grappling styles, are good because they focus and dont pretend they know everything. it is up to the individual to find their own strenths and weaknesses - - - the gracy brothers are good at grappling, but they don't fall down when confronted by a kicker, do they??? the same can be said for all good artists.tradition is what you make it, nothing more. and if you try to 'gague' your  
opponent in a real fight, you get your head kicked in> 
 
 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:36 1997 
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At 10:28 PM 5/19/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>High-level military in the US also are given exposure to JKD and 
>Hwarangdo. 
> 
>Michael Scott Mears 
>TamOlyn@juno.com 
>SB,>-- 
> 
 
 
yeah?? i DO Hwa Rang Do!!! of course, we are korean-origin kick and grapple legends, while those american hwarangdo guys completly different - - - in fact, both these 
styles auffer from the same fate - - -  they/we are so diverse, it takes a really good  
instructor to make it work - - -otherwise it's just a sham, and no one learns anything. 
this is the problem with too wide a curriculum 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:37 1997 
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At 10:28 PM 5/19/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>The problem with muay thai is that they don't practice ground-fighting.  
>If you shoot their legs, they're in trouble.  Not that it's easy to do. 
> 
 
it's SIMPLE!! alll you need is a titanum skull!!! *lol* 
seriously, do you really think you could go for a thai-fighters legs in a real fight? no, you couldn't: he'd knee you in the face, and stomp on your neck. 
 
piece of advise kids: NEVER lower your head!!! it is suicide!!! when you take-down, ONLY use your legs!! keep upright!!! always!!! 
 
sorry for the outburst. this concludes (hopefully) my martial arts lecture.  
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:38 1997 
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Date: 	Mon, 19 May 1997 19:48:46 -1000 
From: Richard Scott <rscott@hawaii.edu> 
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Subject: Re: CHAR: The Sleeper 
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970519235400.21054A-100000@access1.digex.net> 
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This is cheating, we can do better than that. :) 
 
First, I guess start with what he turns into, ace, joker/ace, joker in 
descending order of probability. Like 14- ace or something like that. 
 
Then, how do you simulate a random generator of powers?  This would be a 
good time to have a game when you randomly roll powers up on some table 
other than technological. 
 
I guess being basically an NPC only - would anyone play him or would they 
let anyone play him? 
 
Richard Scott (rscott@hawaii.edu) 
--You were spectacular, Bob.  But not very effective. 
South Melbourne official when the legendary Bob Pratt failed to win 
South's 1934 best and fairest despite kicking a league record 150 goals. 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:40 1997 
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Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 03:04:05 
From: John Turner <Avery1@flash.net> 
Subject: Re: real world martial art 
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970520144227.1defcc40@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
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I beg to differ.  Read the alt.rec.martial-arts FAQ.  Read the history of 
Judo and Jujitsu. 
 
At 02:36 PM 5/20/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
>At 01:27 AM 5/19/97 +0000, you wrote: 
>>At 10:58 AM 5/17/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
>>>how about thai, cross-trained with judo? the best fighter is always a 
>>hybrid, and i don't mean those fat boys in the ucf who pretend they can 
kick.  
>> 
>> 
>>Um, just to point out something, judo is the sport form of juijitsu.  
>> 
>WRONG. jujitsu is a completly different art, and not nearly as effective. 
> 
> 
>>:) 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:11:41 1997 
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Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 03:38:49 
From: John Turner <Avery1@flash.net> 
Subject: Re: real world martial art 
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970520144227.1defcc40@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
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At 02:36 PM 5/20/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
>At 01:27 AM 5/19/97 +0000, you wrote: 
>>At 10:58 AM 5/17/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
>>>how about thai, cross-trained with judo? the best fighter is always a 
>>hybrid, and i don't mean those fat boys in the ucf who pretend they can 
kick.  
>> 
>>Um, just to point out something, judo is the sport form of juijitsu.  
>> 
>WRONG. jujitsu is a completly different art, and not nearly as effective. 
 
Well, gee aren't you just captain kung fu?  Judo was derived from juijitsu 
in the 1800s.  Juijitsu is the form from which Judo, Aikido and Hapkido all 
came.   
 
>From the alt.rec.martial-arts FAQ: 
"Judo is derived from Jujutsu (see Jujutsu). It was created by Professor 
Jigoro Kano who was born in Japan in 1860 and who died in 1938 after a 
lifetime of promoting Judo. Mastering several styles of jujutsu in his 
youth he began to develop his own system based on modern sports principles. 
In 1882 he founded the Kodokan Judo Institute in Tokyo where he began 
teaching and which still is the international authority for Judo. The name 
Judo was chosen because it means the "gentle way". Kano emphasised the 
larger educational value of training in attack and defense so that it could 
be a path or way of life that all people could participate in and benefit 
from. He eliminated some of the traditional jujutsu techniques and changed 
training methods so that most of the moves could be done with full force to 
create a decisive victory without injury. " 
 
Gee, create a decisive victory without injury? Sounds like a sport to me. 
I get really sick of all the "my Flowering Pig kungfu is better than your 
Festering Boil style."  No one style is the be all end all of Martial Arts. 
 Every move has a counter move and many factors apply to the outcome of a 
fight.  Strength and resistance to pain are two of the greatest, as are the 
rules of contact.  How do you think Mike Tyson was able to defeat more 
technical fighters?  ALL styles have their strengths AND weaknesses.   
 
There is also the factor of the instuctor's teaching style.  You may find 
that dojo A of, say, Tae Kwon Do, is nothing more than preparation for 
sport competition and dojo B teaches the asthetics and philosophy of Tae 
Kwon Do.  Which is better?  Depends on the individual taking the 
instruction.  Any supergrand master can be defeated.  Royce Gracie has been 
defeated, big deal.   
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:12:00 1997 
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Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:47:44 -0700 (PDT) 
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Subject: Re: Hughes Academy Game 
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At 06:27 PM 5/19/97 -0700, Christopher Taylor wrote: 
>Okay, the game is on, I have 10 people interested in playing (?!), but I 
>will take more people as I don't have character ideas from everybody.  The 
>ones I have seen so far have been pretty interesting (hard to believe from 
>this group, eh? :) no creativity in Champs players). 
> 
>My web page (that feels wierd to say) is at www.cyberhighway.net/~lancec/ 
 
   Chris, I was interested in following this, but it crashes my browser. 
This Public Library machine only has Netscape 2.01; does your page use some 
of the more advanced Java stuff that NS201 can't handle?  (If so, don't feel 
that you have to change it; I'll probably have an upgrade before too long.) 
 
>It is not complete yet, but is on it's way rapidly.  The campaign 
>information and lots of extraneous info is on there.  My House Rules are 
>there too, they aren't particularly key for the game, but they should 
>provide a laugh at least. 
> 
>Let me know what you think (I know some of the links are dead, give me time! :) 
 
   Is there a link to my stuff?   ;-] 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 21:12:05 1997 
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From: "David Graham" <dgraham882@hotmail.com> 
Cc: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Fwd: The Apocalypse Parallel 
Content-Type: text/plain 
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 17:06:04 PDT 
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The following is an advertisement for a live AOL campaign.  Any AOL members who  
are interested in playing, please send private mail to JQuick000@aol.com.  DO  
NOT reply to this list!  Thank you. 
 
______________________________________________________________________ 
 
Commander's Log 
UN Gateway Recon Team, Alpha 01 
Subject: Mission failed 
12.28.97 
*****************Start Log************************* 
      This transcript is eyes only. Security level Omicron.  If you're not  
cleared for this material, take a hike, Jack. 
      This is my final entry.  Current locatin is Akron, Ohio, CRA. That's  
Communist Republic of America, if you didn't know. And if you understand the  
rest of this, then you probably didn't.  Of course it's irrelevant now.   
Everyone here is dead. Everyone except for them, and I don't think they can  
talk. 
      When we came through the gateway, we expected something odd, but not what  
we found. At first, it looked just like our world. Then we noticed most of the  
signs were in German. And that was before thing started going really wrong.   
There was a plague...it was wiping out the population of that earth at the rate  
of about 20% a week.  It took us three weeks to find out that the Arrowhead  
Project was located in Virginia in this world, not New York. By the time we  
found the gateway, half the team was dead from the plague. Marcus was dead too,  
but it wasn't the plague. The Nazis got Marcus. We thought the 
gateway would get us home, but we were wrong about that, too. 
      It's been 5 weeks and 4 worlds since then. We lost two more team 
members when one world flooded. We lost the Wren unit on one that was 
freezing over like a tray of ice cubes.  The Wren was the one who figured out  
that the gateways were randomly changing alignment. 
      They got Sgt. Peters this morning. I've been holed up here since then, but  
they'll get in soon enough.  Luckily, I've got one round left. 
      If you're reading this then you probably already know; the gateways just  
lead on and on to different earths, each a little different from the last.  
Except for the fact that they're all dying, of course.  I've already seen  
plague, ice, flood, and the...things...that got Sgt. Peters. What would I see if  
I went on? Alien invasions? Meteor strikes? Or just empty, dead planets floating  
through space like discarded tin cans? 
      We fought the invaders that came through the gateway when they showed up  
on our planet, but I think I can understand them now.  If they were running from  
a place like this then I understand all too well. 
       They've broken through the outer door.  There isn't much to left to say  
anyhow, except that whoever you are, I hope that you saved yourself a bullet.  
Pretty soon you'll be needing it. 
****************End Log************************ 
 
The Apocalypse Parallel is a cross dimensional campaign using the Hero System  
rules.  The PCs are part of a multinational team sent through a mysterious  
gateway after an advanced extradimensional army uses it to launch an invasion of  
earth.  Their objective was to recon and locate weapons or technology usable  
against the enemy, but now it remains to be seen whether or not they can survive  
each dying world even long enough to get to the next.   
   The game at this point is planned to run Sunday evenings from 4:30 to 7:30  
EST in the RPG forum on AOL. EMail JQuick000 for complete campaign ground rules. 
 
 
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------- 
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com 
--------------------------------------------------------- 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 23:02:57 1997 
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Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 22:26:05 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: The Oddity 
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970520222352.22131B-100000@access1.digex.net> 
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THE ODDITY 
(Patti Roberts, Evan Crozier, John Sheak) 
 
Description: 
The Oddity is three people (Patti Roberts, Evan Crozier and John Sheak) 
fused into *one* body.  Thus, the Oddity is a massive figure, weighing 
close to 500 lbs, while only standing 6' in height.  The Oddity dresses in 
a floor-length, hooded black cloak, and wears a fencing mask to hide it's 
constantly shifting features.  It's body shifts as well, and the cloak is 
constantly shifting and sliding about.  The Oddity possess immense 
physical strength as well as great resistance to physical damage.  Because 
of it's multiple personalities, it is also very hard to contact and 
control telepathically.  Also, due to it's multiple personalities, the 
Oddity's INT can range from 11 to 15 depending upon who's currently 
dominant.  These changes will also affect which if the Oddity's Psych Lims 
are currently in use. 
 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		45		30 
Dex		12		6 
Con		20		20 
Body		20		20 
Int		13		3 
Ego		18		16 
Pre		20		10 
Com		2		-4 
PD		25		16 
ED		20		15 
Spd		4		18 
Rec		12		0 
End		40		0 
Stun		50		0 
Char Total			150 
Power Total			49 
Total Cost			199 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
7	Density Increase: 1 Level, 0 END, Persistant, Always On 
	+5 STR, +1 PD/ED, -1" KB, x2 Mass; 6' Tall, 490 lbs 
11	Damage Resistance: 12 PD/10 ED 
7	Mental Defense: 15 DEF, Only vs Mind Control and Telepathy (-1) 
6	Regeneration: 1 BODY per hour (-3/4) 
 
2	AK: Jokertown 11- 
4	AK: New York City 13- 
2	KS: Art 11- 
2	PS: Artist 11- 
2	PS: Sculpting 11- 
3	Streetwise 13- 
3	CSL: +1 with Grab, Haymaker, Punch 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
20	DF: Tall, massive joker with piebald skin and mutable form 
15	Phys: Multiple personalities - Patti is dominate, can cause 
	changes in INT and Psych Lims 
5	Phys: In constant pain 
10	Psych: Bad Tempered (John) 
15	Psych: Protective of jokers and jokers rights 
10	Psych: Shy (Evan) 
24	Experience Bonus 
 
(The Oddity created by Stephen Leigh, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 23:12:49 1997 
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Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 22:22:50 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
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        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Howler 
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THE HOWLER 
(Stan Wojpowicz) 
 
Description: 
The Howler is a large, powerfuly built man, 6'1" and 180 lbs.  He has 
short brown hair, brown eyes and a strong chin.  His neck is very thick 
due to his mutated throat.  When acting as the Howler, he dresses in a 
distictive yellow costume with kevlar reinforcement.  His sonic powers 
allow him to shatter just about anything.  He can also create a 'wall' of 
sound, capable of knocking down buildings. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		15		5 
Dex		18		24 
Con		15		10 
Body		14		8 
Int		12		2 
Ego		11		2 
Pre		15		5 
Com		8		-1 
PD		6		3 
ED		4		1 
Spd		4		12 
Rec		6		0 
End		30		0 
Stun		30		0 
Char Total			71 
Power Total			173 
Total Cost			244 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
100	Multipower: Sonic Powers 
7	u 12d6 EB (physical), 1/2 END, END 3 
7	u 10d6 EB (physical), AoE: Cone (11"), No Range, END 10 
7	u 3d6 RKA, Penetrating, END 7 
 
9	Armor: 6 DEF, Act 14-, OIF: Body Armor 
7	Damage Resistance: 1/4 Physical, vs Stun Only (-1/2) 
 
5	AK: New York City 14- 
5	Deduction 12- 
5	PS: Longshoreman 14- 
3	Stealth 13- 
3	Streetwise 12- 
6	CSL: +2 with Block, Dodge, Punch 
9	CSL: +3 with Multipower 
 
Disadvantages	 
100	Base 
10	DF: *Very* thick neck and throat 
10	Psych: Easy going and good natured 
10	Rep: Ace crime fighter 11- 
114	Experience 
 
(The Howler created by Stephen Leigh, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 20 23:12:54 1997 
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Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 22:28:48 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Peregrine 
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970520222720.22131C-100000@access1.digex.net> 
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PEREGRINE 
 
Description: 
Peregrine (she legally changed her name) is tall and broad-shouldered, 
with a buxom build, long brown hair and blue eyes.  She has brown and 
white feathered wings, and looks to weigh about 140 lbs, but due to her 
hollow bones, only weighs 80 lbs.  Her wings grant her the ability to fly, 
although her actual flight power is a form of telekinesis.  She is a quite 
famous ace, having her own talk show (Peregrine's Perch), cosmetic line, 
designer clothing label, etc.  Peregrine is also turned on by excitement 
and danger and often joins in on dangerous situations and events.  She 
wears a set of titanium talons on each hand for such encounters. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		13		3 
Dex		23		39 
Con		15		10 
Body		13		6 
Int		17		7 
Ego		15		10 
Pre		18		8 
Com		22		6 
PD		5		2 
ED		4		1 
Spd		4		7 
Rec		6		0 
End		30		0 
Stun		30		2 
Char Total			101 
Power Total			95 
Total Cost			196 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
15	HKA: 1d6 (1 1/2d6 w/STR), 0 END, OIF: Fighting claws 
20	Multipower: Wings, Restrainable (-1/2) 
2	u Flight: 15" (30" noncombat), END 3 
1	u Gliding: 15" 
2	Running: +1" (7" total) 
 
10	Perk: Wealth 
5	Acrobatics 15- 
1	Bureacratics 8- 
3	Conversation 13- 
3	High Society 13- 
3	Oratory 13- 
5	PS: Model (PRE) 15- 
3	PS: Talk Show Host (PRE) 13- 
3	Seduction 13- 
3	Trading 13- 
10	CSL: +2 with HTH 
6	CSL: +3 with Flight 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
15	DF: Extreme beauty and tendency to dress very revealingly 
15	DF: Wings 
10	Phys: Hollow bones, weighs 80 lbs; +1" KB and requires special 
	medical attention 
10	Phys: Large, bulky wings 
15	Psych: Reckless, craves exceitment 
10	Psych: Likes to flirt 
5	Psych: Fear of getting wings dirty/fouled 
10	Public ID 
6	Experience 
 
(Peregrine created by Gail Gerstner-Miller, character sheet created by 
Michael Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 21 20:27:18 1997 
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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:37:02 -0400 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@mars.superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Help 
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970518115430.00ada23c@globaldialog.com> 
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At 11:54 AM 5/18/97 -0500, Tim Haas wrote: 
>  What is the Def/Body of a normal gun anyways (my BBB is packed away at 
>the moment)? 
 
DEF on any focus is 1 for every 5 active points.  A normal gun his a 2d6 
RKA or 30 active points and thus 6 DEF.  If you do 7 pbody to a gun, it is 
destroyed. 
The minimum DEF is 3.  BBB pg 105. 
 
  Joe 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 21 20:27:19 1997 
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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:56:09 -0400 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@mars.superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: The Sleeper 
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95q.970519194609.19766C-100000@uhunix4> 
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At 07:48 PM 5/19/97 -1000, Richard Scott wrote: 
>This is cheating, we can do better than that. :) 
> 
>Then, how do you simulate a random generator of powers?  This would be a 
>good time to have a game when you randomly roll powers up on some table 
>other than technological. 
 
Alright, I don't know the books, but from the description Michael Surbrook 
gave he seems simple.  One power: 
 
VPP (100-300 base, however powerful he needs to be, you know the books, you 
tell me) Cosmic(+1), Can only change between games (-1/2), No Conscious 
Control (-2). 
 
Throw in the LS: Needs no sleep (-1/2 plot device limitation) 
 
   Joe 
 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 21 20:27:20 1997 
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Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 23:50:20 -0600 
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net> 
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Subject: Humor (slightly off topic) Long 
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I know this is a little off topic but I thought the list at large would 
like this.... 
 
 
 
 
 
You might be a gamer if... 
 
 
...losing your dice bag would be a serious financial blow. 
 
        ... " what do you mean dice bag ?" ( singular ) 
 
...you could paper you bathroom in character sheets. 
 
...you could paper your bathroom in different versions of just one 
character. 
 
...you are unable to walk past the latest TSR supplement without leafing 
through it, even though you know it's going to be bad. 
 
...you have more entertaining "No-shit,-there-I-was-in-a-game" stories 
than 
you do anecdotes about your family. 
 
...you talk about your characters as if they are real people. 
 
...you refer to your IRL job as " Live Role Playing " 
 
...you alternate between referring to your characters in the first and 
the 
third person. 
 
        ... and none of your friends gets confused. 
 
...you've ever spent a significant fraction of your life modifying game 
rules that you didn't like 
 
        ... and, as soon as the system worked to your satisfaction, 
discarded it. 
 
...when someone says "The blue books," you don't automatically picture 
the 
kind that they give you during a college final exam. 
 
...you worship idols of Gary Gygax in your basement. 
 
        ...you burn Gary Gygax in effigy in your back yard. 
 
...you will not buy comic books with the Dragon Strike (tm) logo on the 
back. 
 
...you've ever seen the old AD&D tv series. 
 
...you're still reading this list. 
 
...you hang out with people you actively dislike because they give good 
role-play. 
 
...you've ever gotten into a screaming match over something that 
happened 
in a game. 
 
...you have more than one photocopied bootleg of a gaming text. 
 
...you keep old characters around because they are good company. 
 
...you keep old characters around just in case someone might run that 
system again. (Never mind that its TS: SI) 
 
        ...You knew what I meant when I said TS:SI. 
 
...you have a PhD in manipulating point systems to the best effect,even 
though you failed high school geometry. 
 
...you can consume your body weight in junk food in one gaming session. 
 
        ...It's not enough to sustain you. 
     
...you consider Altoids, Salt-&-Vinegar chips, and blue Teeni Hugs a 
balanced diet. (or even an acceptable combination.) 
 
        ...pizza, Coke, cheese puffs, and Sanex  
 
        ...pringles, chocolet covered penuts, and moutain dew 
     
...you have been known to drive to far away places where you paid 
enormous 
amounts of money for the privilege of sleeping on floors, eating crap, 
buying little pewter statues of Gandalf, and meeting dozens of 
psychopathic 
members of the alternate (or similar) sex who will follow you around for 
months,  merely for the pleasure of playing with gamers you don't know. 
 
        ...and then signed up en masse with all of you friends to play 
in games 
with game masters who you've known since high school. 
 
...you own your own weight in gaming books. 
 
        ...before or after the 'consuming own weight' thing? 
     
...the owners of local hobby stores take your checks without ID because 
they know where you live. 
 
        ...And don't want to come over to collect 
     
...you can do AD&D money conversions in your head. 
 
        ...while sleeping. 
     
...you could wallpaper your bedroom in Dragon Mirths (tm). 
 
        ... you have. 
     
...you consider the demise of "What's New With Phil & Dixie" a blow to 
great literature. 
 
...you consider the resurrection of "What's New With Phil & Dixie" the 
redeeming feature of Magic: The Gathering. 
 
...you consider the 20th century a state of mind. 
 
...you have a random NPC generator, written in BASIC, designed to run on 
the Trash-80,the Commodore 64, MSX or Apple II. 
 
...you've ever designed your own character sheets. 
 
...you can be more that three NPCs at the same time without generating 
more 
than reasonable confusion in your players. 
 
...you have ever played a Dwarven character who did not have "axe" or 
"beard" ANYWHERE in his or her name. 
 
...you know how to sex dwarves. (chromosome typing- required a blood 
sample. I'M not getting it...) 
 
...you've ever tried to explain gaming to a school counselor, parent, or 
other PW/OC (Person With/Out Clue). 
 
        ...you've succeeded. 
 
...you've played Talisman more than once. 
 
        ...you've finished a game of Talisman. 
 
                ...more than once. 
 
...you're STILL reading this list. 
     
...you can quote extensively from the Wandering Damage Tables. 
 
...you've mistaken a d12 or a double d10 for a d20 while playing AD&D 
and 
had a THAC0 low enough to hit the 8HD monster, anyway... 
 
        ...you understood that. 
 
...you carry AD&D insurance. 
 
...your AC is so low that even you can't hit yourself. 
 
...an 87 point Balrog is no big thrill anymore. 
 
... you bring your dicebag even to diceless roleplaying events. 
 
        ... to hit people with. 
     
...you've ever discovered, after gaming with your significant other, 
that 
you like their character better than you do them. 
 
...you have friends or acquaintances       gularly refer to you as "Og." 
(Or something similar.) 
 
...you've ceased responding to your birth name. 
 
...you spend more money on dice than on food. 
 
...you sometimes forget what century this is. 
 
...your first response to any frustrating situation is, "I bash it with 
my 
axe." 
 
...you know a lot of gaming jokes that used to be funny once. 
 
        ... you still find them funny 
     
...your friend(s) who does not game feels very left out of all of your 
conversations. 
 
...you have more gaming books than the local hobby store. 
 
...you've discovered that spare dice make good beanbag filler. 
 
        ... use the beanbag as traveling-dice bag. 
     
        ...you knew that that last question was a ringer:  
                who has more dice than they can use? 
 
... you have a copy of "Dark Dungeons" kicking around somewhere because  
        a: you thought it was funny  
        b: your parents got concerned that you were living in a fantasy 
realm. 
        c: you're sort of dissapointed that you haven't reached the 
level where 
they start teaching you the real spells (as described in the above "Dark 
Dungeons" pamphlet) yet:  
        d: You're sure you must be a high enough level. 
 
...you've been gaming for more than half of your life. 
 
...you still laugh when someone says "Hey, Dave, I think the barbarian 
in 
the corner wants another beer." 
 
...the phrase "Collect Call of Cthulhu" brings back fond memories. 
 
...you can quote the whole "Trolls!  Mutants!  Trolls!  Mutants!" strip 
from "what's New With Phil & Dixie." 
     
...you knew a female gamer once. 
 
        ...you were a female gamer once. 
 
...you tend to play characters as different from you in race, religion, 
sex, sexual orientation, and what have you as possible, just to confuse 
your friends. 
 
...(For New Englanders only) You were able to find stuff at "Flock, 
Stock, 
and Barrel." 
 
...you've been known to have in-depth conversations about the relative 
merits of Champions, V&V, Marvel, and DC heroes... ignoring the fact 
that 
all superhero systems are intrinsically sucky. 
 
        ...you like one of the above systems enough that you yelped when 
I called  
them all, "sucky." 
     
...you've thought of four or five additions to this list. 
 
...you actually bought TSR's "Dungeoneer's Survival Guide" when it first 
came out. 
 
...you've ever tried to discover the strengths and weaknesses of a 
hemophiliac werewolf. 
 
...someone is attempting to explain the floor plan of a building to you 
and 
you immediately start thinking in terms of 10x10 squares...or 6'x6' 
hexes. 
 
        ...Or in terms of loot and monsters. 
 
... you know what a "flumph" is. 
 
... you know how to pronounce "Tscojanith" and "Drizz't." 
 
 
 
--  
-Mhoram 
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 
 two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright 
Mhoram's Fantasy Hero Domain: 
http://apeleon.net/~mhoram/hero/FHsplash1.htm 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 21 20:27:23 1997 
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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 05:22:54 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Wayne J Shaw <shaw@IDT.NET> 
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Reply-To: Wayne J Shaw <shaw@IDT.NET> 
cc: HeroGames@aol.com, fuzion@pjh.org, Mike Bandoian <Bandoian@deltanet.com&> 
        Sean Fannon <SeanPatFan@aol.com> 
Subject: Fuzion commentary (long)  
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Here's the full version of the one I popped out incompletely a while ago.  
I know some of it is old news by now, but it still seemed worth sending 
out: 
 
Okay, now that C:TNM is out, I'm ready to actually make my comments on the 
system. 
 
First off, I want to make it clear that I come at it from a fairly neutral 
stance: I don't think (as some people apparently do) that Hero Games is 
the Antichrist because they've done something to try to break up the 
sluggish movement their system has had for years, and because it doesn't 
happen to be what I'd necessarily prefered.  On the other hand, I'm not 
going in with the assumption they've done things properly either, just 
because of marketspeak.  I also have pronounced opinions of where some 
bugs in Hero 4th are, and this will cover my views, as you'll see. 
 
This will largely be broken up into commentary about each rules section as 
I get to it.  Some of it will have been stated before, but I'm going to 
still comment when I hit something worth commenting on. 
 
Lifepath/Originpath: Unlike some people, I find these fairly harmless; 
sure some people will think they're manditory, but frankly, they seem 
obviously bypassable to me on reading them, and they look like they could 
be a good tool for someone with no concept in mind when they start out. 
They are also (at least the Origin Path) rather obviously set up for the 
specifics of the C:TNM universe in mind. 
 
Primary Characteristics: For the most part, I thought this did a good job 
of breaking down the sets of characteristics in the two parent games and 
making them _appoximately_ even in value.  I thought the modifications to 
Strength (removing the figureds) and Dexterity (splitting it in two) were 
particularly good choices.  I'm not sure making them all equal was 
necessarily the ideal choice, but for a game that was trying to simplify 
it's structre it was an understandable one.  Even though I am not 
altogether comfortable about the fact your Strength no longer has any 
impact on your Defense or Stun, I think it makes certain of the issues 
involving things like Hand-to-Hand attack much more approachable.  I would 
have prefered them to call Reflexes and Dexterity Dexterity and Agility, 
and really think Speed should be based off of the latter, but that's 
probably just me. 
 
Adding/Removing Characteristics: I'm not nearly as sanguine about this as 
they are.  I suspect rolling some of these characteristics in together 
would have very non-benign effects.  I also think their statement about 
emphasizing the importance of characteristics is ducking the issue; some 
campaigns just _can't_ make all characteristics be equal.  That was one of 
GURPS flaws.  On the other hand, there's an easy fix; it isn't hard at all 
to retroduce increased cost for heavily valued characteristics. 
 
Figured Characteristics: It's really unfortunate that they don't spell out 
how to buy these seperately.  It clearly can be done from the implication 
of the Increasing or Decreasing Characteristics bar at the bottom of page 
116.  However, the only ones on the characters are either Defenses (which 
were priced off of the entry in Powers on Armor) or Speed (which at 10 per 
one point, seems pricey given that 10 Option Points could also buy you 2 
more points of Reflex, which would _also_ give you a Speed point). 
Personally, I also wish they'd have kept Stun Defense as Physical Defense. 
I realize the distinction they were making, but... 
 
Gadgets and Bought Options: These need to be spelled out in much greater 
detail.  It _appears_ the distinction is that Gadgets are bought as powers 
with the character taking a Complication to represent the problems with 
having a power on a Focus, while Bought Options are purchased with the 
'money' value of an Option Point.  This also strikes me as creating some 
real problems, since while it's better than giving them out for free, it 
still gives an enormous cost break to conventional technology. 
 
Complications: In general, I'm actually glad about their attempts to 
generalize these more (and don't let the tables fool you, that's what 
they've done; the tables are exemplary for the most part, with a few of 
them giving specifics for common types of complications that are not self 
evident from the general rules).  However, a few things could have been 
clearer.  For example, the Vulnerability section seems to double-dip on 
frequency.  My _guess_ would be that this represents how commonly the 
character can expect to run into it in the environment, and how often the 
GM is permitted to insert it deliberately, but it's _anything_ but clear. 
And the Susceptibility does not give any numbers for how it's applies, nor 
are there any examples in the sample characters.  But it's still a 
generally sound approach, and some things (like the 'social 
disadvantages') have been long needed. 
 
Skills: In general, the breaking down of skills more finely was a good 
thing.  It does, however, produce some odd results, such as the 
distinction between Hand to Hand Evade and Melee Evade.  It also seems 
like something like the old Scientist/Scholar/etc. structure could have 
been imported; I'm sorry, but I've simply never seen a campaign where the 
miscellaneous Knowledge skills are as useful as a lot of functional and 
combat oriented skills.  Also, the business found later about using skills 
with the stat appropriate for the situation should either have been here, 
or at least had  a 'See' reference. 
 
Talents: Okay.  I understand the desire to keep things simple here, but it 
seems to me this is an area where the fixed cost mania got out of hand. 
Some of these seem clearly worth more than 3 points to me (Acute Sense 
comes to mind).  Also, I notice one has disappeared since Bubblegum 
Crises: Knack, which seemed to be the replacement for Scholar/Scientist/ 
Etc.  Since that sort of thing belongs, if anything, more in the Superhero 
genre than anywhere else, I'm a bit suprised.   
 
Perks and Privledges: Okay, this is the first of a couple places where an 
idea that should have been either implimented more fully or left the hell 
alone is presented: the Dial for 'impact' of Perks influencing cost.  This 
should either be discussed as a general proceedure for all kinds of 
purchases, or left the hell alone.   Yes, wealth has very little impact in 
a superhero game, but enormous in a cyberpunk game; but that's also true 
of computer programming.  Also, it's doubtful that Perks as a class change 
from setting to setting: Wealth may not matter much in a superhero game, 
but contacts and favors certainly can. 
 
Wealth: Speaking of Wealth, the way 'regular' equipment is purchased in 
C:TNM is unclear as hell; you buy a Wealth perk, but yet characters do 
seem to pay a small number of option points for the privledge to hall 
things around.  Do you have to pay them again if you lose the equipment? 
And are weapons and armor pointed differently than other everyday 
equipmenet? (It seems so.)  This is a very unclear area. 
 
Superpower Plug-In:  <Leans back and cracks his nuckles in preparation>. 
Okay.  Most of this section I had no problem with.  The simpliied 
purchasing of powers is in keeping with the rest of the system.  Buuuut... 
I even understand the idea of doing up 'canned' powers like the Armor 
Pierecing Energy Blast rather than defining Advantages. But the reduced 
damage rather than modified cost is, I think, a terrible idea.  It 
produces the effect of making powers with Advantages progressively more 
attractive the more dice of it you're going to buy.  A typical C:TNM 
campaign might not feel this hideously, but a higher powered campaign 
definitely would.  In addition, it's not even implimented consistently; 
the adjustment powers are adapted more or less straight across form 
Champions; their advantages (Range in particular, though they talk about 
extended fade time) is bought by increasing the cost of the power as a 
multiplier, in effect.  I think this whole idea, along with the idea of 
using Compensations rather than Limitations, is dangerous at best for 
balance reasons. 
There are also a few annoyingly missing powers; one that has jumped out at 
a number of people (Regeneration) is discussed as being done by buying up 
Recovery.  Unfortunately, this just won't do for actual combat-time 
regenerators, which are a small but not non-existant group.  The vanished 
Transform is also annoying.  You'd also think they could have fixed the 
damn fool business about having to buy the rest of the group at full cost 
on the sensory modification powers. 
A few specific power problems while I'm at it: 
Entangle: Surely they didn't mean for Entangle to actually cost END each 
round.  That bug went out back in Champs I. 
Invisibility: The END cost listed on this is 1/phase.  What is this 
supposed to mean, or is it some sort of typo? 
Force Wall: Given that Energy Blasts and Killing Attacks do damage the 
same way to inanimate objects, and that Killing Defense is normally 
equally effective against either, the difference between the two in the 
way Force Walls are effected makes no sense at all.  In addition, Force 
Walls were often too easy to bring down in Champs; against a Killing 
Attack of compareably power, they're _much_ too easy in the Power Plug in. 
At the least they should get 3 DEF per level, and even then at higher 
level totals there are going to be problems since Killing Attacks slowly 
gain on the Force Wall.  Personally I'm beginning to see virtue in the 
idea of giving Force Walls some SDP in addition to their Armor, and then 
maybe require putting one up actually be an action. 
Growth: This shows all the signs of not being edited when copied over from 
Hero4th.  Inches of Knockback?  Adding Body?  Only adding 1 Stun in a 
version of the game where characters often have significantly more Stun 
than Champs characters? 
See in the Dark: Does this really mean to go through _any_ Darkness, or is 
it just effectively a Special Group targeting sense that you have to buy a 
dedicated Darkness to stop?  If the former, I'm very leery of neutralizing 
a whole power quite that trivially. 
 
Mental Powers Plug-In: Not much change from what we're used to here, 
except for apparently dropping back to the pre-Fourth Edition, pay 
Endurace each round rule.  On the other hand, it only looks like you get 
once shot to pull out of the effect, and then you're stuck.  Hmmm. 
Also, the breakout roll seems rather easy to make, and there seems to be 
no way to make it harder on the target. 
 
Martial Arts Plug-In: There are some interesting features in this, and 
some things that struck me as strange.  Making Breakfall a Martial Arts 
manuever rather than a skill, for example.  The presence of Ki Strike in 
Streetfighting (and _only_ Streetfighting).  The goofy Martial Arts cost 
dial (see the discussion of Perks above for my problem with this.)  Also, 
at only two option point per extra damage class, it seems way too good a 
deal.  At four per DC it would have been a good deal, given the lack of 
END cost. 
 
Mekton Plug-In: This seems generally well done, but was not explained 
fully, as some errata I've seen on the net indicates; in particular, 
calculating the final weight is problematic with the information given. 
Some thought to the proper application of the Rule of X to Mecha or 
Vehicle using characters also would have been helpful.  My assumption was 
that you use the vehicle or the character's defenses and toughness, 
whichever is higher.  That makes it barely possible to build a small 
battlesuit or vehicle under the system with a decent character and fit it 
into a Rule of 24.  Also, I think explicit discussion of the scale 
targeting differences would have been helpful, otherwise one of Mekton's 
more important balancing factors goes out the window. 
 
Experience: There are some problems in this area; particularly the rules 
for buying up skills after the fact mean that it's actually cheaper to buy 
an underlaying Characteristic after a Skill has reached Level Five.  It's 
also not clear at all from the write-up how many Option Points over all 
should be awarded per game. 
 
Rule of X: A fine idea, but the implimentation in some cases is unclear. 
For example, it mentions Damage of attack, not Points, which could be 
interpeted to mean that a 10D6 AP attack is worth the same as a 10D6 
regular attack. 
 
Time, Turns and Speed: The various speed up options and such are nice. 
The lack of half-phases is something that might take some getting used to, 
and the accidental removal of the Move action isn't going to help in some 
cases.  I also think there were better places to mention the Post-12 
Recovery than where it is, since, sure enough, some people think you only 
get it when you're using Speed, even though they clearly mention that 
without Speed, it' just as though you had everyone with a Speed of 4. 
It's also interesting that the alternative use for Speed charg mentions 
Speeds up to 24. 
 
Distance and Movement: Perhaps it's me, but having read the movement and 
accelleration rules on page 140, and additional discussion under the 
movement powers in the Powers Plug-In, I _still_ can't figure out how fast 
someone actually accellerates.  Their combat move?  Their Move score? 
What?  It's rather important, especially in light of some potentil effects 
of the Strength tables.  There are places that seem to imply that 
accelleration works much more dramatically than the pokey version in Hero, 
but it's simply impossible to be sure. 
 
Taking Action/Difficulty Values: This seems generally simple and workable 
enough (though you wouldn't get me to use the Interlock option on a bet; 
small linear die rolls are Not A Good Thing).  However, the table of 
difficulites needs to be modified down by -5 if you're using the D10 
option, or things are significantly harder for people using that. 
 
Using Your Skills: Mostly good work; I particularly like the discussion of 
varying the characteristic base for the skill based on the situation. 
However I think the critical success and failure rules could use some 
work; in practice, these don't really _matter_ as written, in the majority 
of situations. 
 
Actions: There are a few problems in this area, such as the apparent 
accidental removal of the Move action (equivelent to the Champions 
half-move, allowing you to move a bit and still take action).  There are 
also some changes that have profound effects on other parts of the rules: 
Diving for Cover is a fairly trivial exercise for a super, which somewhat 
reduces the utility of area and explosive effects, and Getting Up is a 
full action, which makes being knocked down (by a throw or knockkback) far 
more problematical. 
 
Lifting and Throwing: There are some problems with the whole way the Lift 
table is set up.  For one thing, many of the high-end examples are messed 
up, being _way_ too heavy.  Also, with the superheroic dial setting, we're 
back to the bottom end being able to lift a hell of a lot.  As to throwing 
things, while a cute idea, there are some problems.  First off, the second 
paragraph seems problematic; either it's correct as written, in which case 
minimum throws (because of the STR +4 formula) are way high, or that's 
supposed to be a _minus_ four...in which case teh line under Strength 
feats about only throwing a quarter of your lift is probably not correct. 
More importantly, in the case of high end strengths, the new table makes 
it far too viable a technique to simply pick up an annoying opponent and 
_throw_ him out of the area.  Unless the accelleration rules for movment 
powers have changed (and as I noted, its unclear) he will not likely get 
back before the battle is over.  This worked in DCHeroes because DCHeroes 
characters can accellerate to full speed instantly, and often have 
horrendously large movement powers. 
 
Special Attacks: Some of these aren't much different that in Hero. 
However: 
 
Explosions: As I noted above, it's perhaps a trifle too easy for 
high-characteristic characters to get out of these. 
 
Autofire Attacks: The phrasing under 'Hosing it Down' is seriously 
confused.  It appears the intent is to use something like the Hero and 
RTG autofire rules, which generally worked fairly similar; this is 
supported both by the rules in BubbleGum Crises, and by how the example 
reads.  However, if read literally, any hit leads to a flat number of hits 
equal to some divisor of the rounds fired.  Also, does the rounds fired 
serve any _beneficial_ purpose?  It doesn't appear so. 
 
Manuevering: The discussion of missing a manuever roll seems backward; as 
listed, a lower miss seems to produce a worse result than a higher one. 
Most likely the consequence of the reversed die-rolling convention. 
 
Oh, and since they're in this area: On the guns table, since there was a 
spot between medium Pistols and Magnum Pistols available, damage wise, 
shouldn't the heavies have gotten it rather than setting them the same as 
the Mediums? 
 
Damage: Most of this is clear enough, and seems to fix some old problems. 
The things that will be hardest for Hero players to get used to is that 
it's not going to be possible to get knocked out a lot any more without 
taking some real damage in the form of Hits.  There's at least a couple of 
problems in here though: 
 
Melee Weapons: The strength minimums on weapons are seriously broken. 
None of the Stun weapons are worth using; a STR 3 man can literally do 
more damage with his hand than with a club, and neither the club nor staff 
does any more damage than the person would do unarmed.  Some of the 
Killing Weapons suffer from the same problem if you're dealing with 
armored opponents; they don't actually do any more damage than the person 
expects with his strength, they just turn it from Stun to Killing. 
 
Kills: The implimentation of this idea looks like it'll work well in 
supers games and be mostly harmless elsewhere.  There is an extremely 
cryptic statement about Kill damage applied to humans creating extra 
knockback that is never explained, however. 
 
Knockback: Speaking of Knockback, this is an extra area that is a problem. 
According to the rules as listed, a normal handgun will knockdown an 
average human, even with the Everyday/realistic setting, every time.  It 
seems like some of this problem would go away if the D6 of knockback 
bonus was subtracted, not added.  Even getting rid of it would still leave 
too much knockback, however, and in a game where getting up is an Action, 
this can be a problem. 
 
Defense and Armor: In general, the sample armors seem too light.  It takes 
chainmail, on the average, for example, to stop a shortsword wielded by a 
STR 3 man. 
 
Mecha Armor: It seems like at least some of these rules (Staged 
Penetration) should be applied to normal armor too, or not at all. 
 
Falling and Collisions: Other than the problem of the missing columns, 
we're right back to having a completely unrelated system used for falling 
and collusions than for Move Throughs and Movebys. 
 
For all of the above, I think the game has genuine potential; but I think 
it is seriously hindered by the bad editing and lack of blindreading and 
blindtesting it obviously recieved before going out the door.  
 
 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 21 20:27:54 1997 
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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 08:56:41 -0500 
From: James Van Sickle <khaine@swbell.net> 
Reply-To: khaine@swbell.net 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) 
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Subject: Re: Fuzion commentary (long) 
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    I actually have to agree somewhat on this.  While granted I have not 
finished going through the book in its entireity, I have found some 
points that have excellent potential.  The revision of the attributes 
was an interesting concept with splitting of the DEX characteristic. 
The Life Path/Origins section was a nice addition since it helps add 
some background ideas after simply designing a basic character concept. 
I have had many occassions in which I or someone else has an interesting 
character concept or idea, but just can't seem to pull background or 
origin together.  However, the powers have been the section I have 
concentrated most on currently. 
 
    I liked how they explained Special Effects, and gave some common 
examples of these in the beginning.  I always seem to end up explaining 
and explaining the concepts of Special Effects.  However, I did not care 
for the idea of limited amount of Advantages and Disadvantages 
available.  Granted Fuzion is supposed to simplify the game so that it 
would be easier to play and design characters.  Unfortunately I have 
always felt that the huge amount of Advantages and Disadvantages which 
you can add to Powers has been one of the best factors of the game.  It 
allows you to design almost any power you want to just about any 
specifics you can possibly think of. 
 
    As for Martial Arts and Mecha sections, well I have not had a chance 
to get into those yet, but I have lightly scanned through them once or 
twice.  From what I can see of the Martial Arts, yes I do agree that 
"Breakfall" should be a common skill rather than a Martial Art; it does 
not take much to learn how to fall "correctly."  I would have also 
preferred to seem some packages of various Martial Arts styles, much 
like what was written up in the Ultimate Martial Artist.  I will fully 
admit that I have not even looked closely enough to give a good opinion 
of the Mecha/Mekton section. 
 
    The Complication/Disadvantage section is written rather better than 
others.  While I am not saying it lacks typos or conflicts with the game 
system, I am saying that they more general way of taking a Disadvantage 
is a nice improvement in my book.  The idea that a Secret ID can vary 
now on how many friends, relatives, etc may come knocking or who cares 
is a nice concept.  The Social Disadvantages were also a good addition 
to help fully flesh out a character. 
 
    Overall I have to agree that the book does have large potential, but 
could do with an errata and possible rewrite in some areas.  Other parts 
of the game system do need to be tested a little more throroughly, or 
looked into at least.  One concept that did catch my eye in the Combat 
section was the Alternative Speed Chart.  I have always had a problem 
with combat being so slow that we can only have one possibly two fights 
per game.  I am thinking of trying this Alternative in a regular 
Champions game just to see if it might work. 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 21 20:27:56 1997 
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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:38:07 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: CHAR: The Sleeper 
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970521005609.00a31fb0@mars.superlink.net> 
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970521103021.21919C-100000@access5.digex.net> 
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On Wed, 21 May 1997, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
 
> Alright, I don't know the books, but from the description Michael Surbrook 
> gave he seems simple.  One power: 
>  
> VPP (100-300 base, however powerful he needs to be, you know the books, you 
> tell me) Cosmic(+1), Can only change between games (-1/2), No Conscious 
> Control (-2). 
>  
> Throw in the LS: Needs no sleep (-1/2 plot device limitation) 
 
The problem is, is that the Sleeper changes *completely* each time he 
wakes.  It's more like a 'cosmic' multiform, in which there are an 
infinate number of forms, each usable only once.  There is also the fact 
that Sleeper can be anywhere from 50 to 500 points when he wakes up.  
 
He's a great 'plot' device character, and certainly a GM's dream, but I'd 
never really allow him as a PC... too much of a head ache, and his falling 
asleep for weeks at a time certainly would make including him into 
adventures difficult. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 21 20:28:00 1997 
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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:02:57 -0700 
From: Jim <champion@cyberhighway.net> 
Subject: Flavor Lines! 
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970423042416.26233A-100000@u3.farm.idt.net> 
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Hi everyone!  I am gettting a final draft of my HeroDeck ready for web-publishing, and thought I'd add a flavor line to the cards so that with each card comes a "traditional" comic book sound, like 
 
	T H W A A P!				KA-BOOM! 
 
or others like that. 
 
I'm interested in collecting as many differect Comic Book Sounds as possible, from Big Hit Sounds, to Big MISS sounds... to "I'm Stunned" kind of sounds, etc. 
 
I remember people were exchanging this some time ago on the list, but I can't find them anywhere. 
 
I'd love to see your favorites, and add them to the cards!  Send away!  ;-) 
 
Thanks 
Jim 
 
 
_________________________________________________________________ 
Jim Dickinson -=- Portland. OR  USA -=- champion@cyberhighway.net 
Castle Game Knight:           http://www.cyberhighway.net/~jd/cgk 
Join the Circle of HEROs:     http://www.cyberhighway.net/~jd/coh 
----------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 21 20:28:01 1997 
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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:30:52 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Flavor Lines! 
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970521100257.006e67bc@mailhost.cyberhighway.net> 
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On Wed, 21 May 1997, Jim wrote: 
 
> Hi everyone!  I am gettting a final draft of my HeroDeck ready for web-publishing, and thought I'd add a flavor line to the cards so that with each card comes a "traditional" comic book sound, like 
>  
> 	T H W A A P!				KA-BOOM! 
>  
> or others like that. 
>  
> I'm interested in collecting as many differect Comic Book Sounds as possible, from Big Hit Sounds, to Big MISS sounds... to "I'm Stunned" kind of sounds, etc. 
>  
> I remember people were exchanging this some time ago on the list, but I can't find them anywhere. 
>  
> I'd love to see your favorites, and add them to the cards!  Send away!  ;-) 
 
You should check out the Dictionary of Comic Book words at  
http://www.intergate.bc.ca/business/kjohn. Not only is it a great  
collection of sound effect words, it cites where & when they were  
(first?) used! 
 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 21 20:28:02 1997 
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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:56:03 -0700 
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com> 
Subject: Re: Flavor Lines! 
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At 10:02 AM 5/21/97 -0700, Jim wrote: 
>Hi everyone!  I am gettting a final draft of my HeroDeck ready for 
web-publishing, and thought I'd add a flavor line to the cards so that with 
each card comes a "traditional" comic book sound, like 
> 
>	T H W A A P!				KA-BOOM! 
> 
>or others like that. 
> 
>I'm interested in collecting as many differect Comic Book Sounds as 
possible, from Big Hit Sounds, to Big MISS sounds... to "I'm Stunned" kind 
of sounds, etc. 
> 
>I remember people were exchanging this some time ago on the list, but I 
can't find them anywhere. 
> 
 
One of my favorites is from an issue of the Hulk where he was on a 
battlefield, carrying a huge energy cannon over his shoulder. The gun made 
this huge Ba-Chooom! noise whenever it fired. 
 
At one point, the cannon ran out of ammo, and the Hulk said, "Empty.. I 
really liked that great Ba-Choom noise." 
 
Note, I don't remember the quote directly, just the general idea. :) 
 
-Nic 
 
 
                +-------------------------------------------------+ 
                |               naneiden@iswest.com               | 
                |         http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/        | 
                |     "Kame...hame..ha!" - Goku, Gohan & Goten    | 
                +-------------------------------------------------+ 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 21 20:28:03 1997 
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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:31:44 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: Flavor Lines! 
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At 10:56 AM 5/21/97 -0700, Nic Neidenbach wrote: 
>One of my favorites is from an issue of the Hulk where he was on a 
>battlefield, carrying a huge energy cannon over his shoulder. The gun made 
>this huge Ba-Chooom! noise whenever it fired. 
> 
>At one point, the cannon ran out of ammo, and the Hulk said, "Empty.. I 
>really liked that great Ba-Choom noise." 
> 
>Note, I don't remember the quote directly, just the general idea. :) 
 
Ah, it's nice to see someone else remembering the classics. ;]  A group I 
used to play with officially renamed the VIPER Mauler cannon the "Ba-choom 
Gun" after this issue came out. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 21 20:28:05 1997 
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From: "Lisa Hartjes" <psyche@ionsys.com> 
Subject: Re: Flavor Lines! 
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:40:25 -0400 
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>One of my favorites is from an issue of the Hulk where he was on a 
>battlefield, carrying a huge energy cannon over his shoulder. The gun  
>made this huge Ba-Chooom! noise whenever it fired. 
> 
>At one point, the cannon ran out of ammo, and the Hulk said, "Empty.. I 
>really liked that great Ba-Choom noise." 
> 
>Note, I don't remember the quote directly, just the general idea. :) 
 
Then there's always the "THOOMP!!" noise which became so loved (or rather 
we loved to hate it) in one of our campaigns.  It was the sound of one of 
the bad guy's Entangle attacks - a huge shotgun-like weapon that when it 
shot the Entangle made that noise.  By the end of the campaign, just making 
that noise was enough to make us cringe and look for cover.  :) 
 
Lisa Hartjes 
 
psyche@ionsys.com 
Home:  http://www.ionsys.com/~psyche 
Work:  http://web.idirect.com/~ncg 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 21 20:28:06 1997 
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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:58:52 -0700 (PDT) 
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Subject: Re: Flavor Lines! 
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At 10:02 AM 5/21/97 -0700, Jim wrote: 
>Hi everyone!  I am gettting a final draft of my HeroDeck ready for 
web-publishing, and thought I'd add a flavor line to the cards so that with 
each card comes a "traditional" comic book sound, like 
> 
> T H W A A P!    KA-BOOM! 
> 
>or others like that. 
> 
>I'm interested in collecting as many differect Comic Book Sounds as 
possible, from Big Hit Sounds, to Big MISS sounds... to "I'm Stunned" kind 
of sounds, etc. 
 
   Big Hit Sounds:  Bang!  Bop!  Crunch!  Dong!  Kazow!  Klang!  Ouch!  Pow! 
Strike!  Wham!  Whang!  Zap!  Zowie! 
   Big Miss Sounds:  Airball!  Whizz!  Whoosh! 
   Sounds of Pain:  Gnungh!  Homna-homna...  Ohhh...  Ouch! 
 
>I remember people were exchanging this some time ago on the list, but I 
can't find them anywhere. 
 
   Really?  I don't remember it, but maybe I was off the list at the time.... 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 21 20:28:07 1997 
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Subject: Re: Flavor Lines! 
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At 01:30 PM 5/21/97 -0400, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>You should check out the Dictionary of Comic Book words at  
>http://www.intergate.bc.ca/business/kjohn. Not only is it a great  
>collection of sound effect words, it cites where & when they were  
>(first?) used! 
 
   I checked this link, and got a "Not Found" error.  Are you sure this is 
accurate?  (I'm very interested in this one, Bill!)   :-] 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 21 20:28:08 1997 
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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:06:30 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Flavor Lines! 
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970521130033.3fcfb59e@klock.com> 
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On Wed, 21 May 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> At 01:30 PM 5/21/97 -0400, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
> >You should check out the Dictionary of Comic Book words at  
> >http://www.intergate.bc.ca/business/kjohn. Not only is it a great  
> >collection of sound effect words, it cites where & when they were  
> >(first?) used! 
>  
>    I checked this link, and got a "Not Found" error.  Are you sure this is 
> accurate?  (I'm very interested in this one, Bill!)   :-] 
 
Yes, the address works, I went there.  Make sure the end of the address 
reads "kjohn" and not "kjohn."  Not the period that shouldn't be used. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 21 20:28:09 1997 
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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:59:27 -0700 (PDT) 
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From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Humor (slightly off topic) Long 
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At 11:50 PM 5/20/97 -0600, Curtis Gibson wrote: 
>I know this is a little off topic but I thought the list at large would 
>like this.... 
 
   This is only marginally off topic, and we're on a light spell right now, 
so why not?   :-] 
 
>You might be a gamer if... 
> 
>...losing your dice bag would be a serious financial blow. 
> 
>        ... " what do you mean dice bag ?" ( singular ) 
 
         ... losing your dice bag *was* a serious financial blow. 
 
>...you talk about your characters as if they are real people. 
 
         ... your characters talk about you as if you aren't. 
 
>...you consider Altoids, Salt-&-Vinegar chips, and blue Teeni Hugs a 
>balanced diet. (or even an acceptable combination.) 
> 
>        ...pizza, Coke, cheese puffs, and Sanex  
> 
>        ...pringles, chocolet covered penuts, and moutain dew 
    
   Pepsi, bubble gum, Snickers, and egg foo yung.  (At the Game Alliance of 
Salem, these were the Four Basic Food Groups.) 
 
>...the phrase "Collect Call of Cthulhu" brings back fond memories. 
 
         ...you own a "Cthulhu for President" bumper sticker. 
 
>...you've thought of four or five additions to this list. 
 
   No comment.   :-] 
 
>...someone is attempting to explain the floor plan of a building to you 
>and 
>you immediately start thinking in terms of 10x10 squares...or 6'x6' 
>hexes. 
> 
>        ...Or in terms of loot and monsters. 
 
...you see a traffic cop parked by the side of the road and you immediately 
recognize his radar gun as Sense Movement, at Range, Discriminatory, OAF, 
Single Target Only (-1). 
 
         ...you know what all of that meant. 
 
...a bully starts harassing you and, just in case it comes to blows, you 
immediately try to Find Weakness on him. 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 21 20:28:11 1997 
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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:47:35 -0700 (PDT) 
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From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Flavor Lines! 
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At 05:06 PM 5/21/97 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Wed, 21 May 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>> At 01:30 PM 5/21/97 -0400, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>> >You should check out the Dictionary of Comic Book words at  
>> >http://www.intergate.bc.ca/business/kjohn. Not only is it a great  
>> >collection of sound effect words, it cites where & when they were  
>> >(first?) used! 
>>  
>>    I checked this link, and got a "Not Found" error.  Are you sure this is 
>> accurate?  (I'm very interested in this one, Bill!)   :-] 
> 
>Yes, the address works, I went there.  Make sure the end of the address 
>reads "kjohn" and not "kjohn."  Not the period that shouldn't be used. 
 
   That was the problem, all right.  I was using Eudora Light, and just 
feeding the link directly to Netscape as you'd typed it.  I tried it again 
just how using the Copy feature, and I got it.  Thanks.   :-] 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 21 20:28:12 1997 
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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 18:26:02 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Daniel Rothman <drothman@bah.com> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Flavor Lines! 
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970521134905.3fcf1876@klock.com> 
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970521182437.18555D-100000@albion.bah.com> 
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On Wed, 21 May 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> At 05:06 PM 5/21/97 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
> >On Wed, 21 May 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> >> At 01:30 PM 5/21/97 -0400, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
> >> >You should check out the Dictionary of Comic Book words at  
> >> >http://www.intergate.bc.ca/business/kjohn. Not only is it a great  
> >> >collection of sound effect words, it cites where & when they were  
> >> >(first?) used! 
> >>  
> >>    I checked this link, and got a "Not Found" error.  Are you sure this is 
> >> accurate?  (I'm very interested in this one, Bill!)   :-] 
> > 
> >Yes, the address works, I went there.  Make sure the end of the address 
> >reads "kjohn" and not "kjohn."  Not the period that shouldn't be used. 
>  
>    That was the problem, all right.  I was using Eudora Light, and just 
> feeding the link directly to Netscape as you'd typed it.  I tried it again 
> just how using the Copy feature, and I got it.  Thanks.   :-] 
 
You might be a geek if: 
...you edited the URL correctly when you copied it, without realizing it 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 21 20:28:13 1997 
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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:13:24 -0400 (EDT) 
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Subject: borg 
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Has anyone done a write-up of the different races from star trek, such as 
vulcans, klingons, the borg, ect??? 
If so could you please send them to me at koko@tir.com when you get a chance? 
Thanks. 
 
koko@tir.com 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 21 22:46:51 1997 
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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 21:32:20 -0400 (EDT) 
Message-ID: <970521213114_1415764452@emout10.mail.aol.com> 
Subject: Re: Flavor Lines! 
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Okay, to bring the intellectual level of this DOWN (if you can believe it) in 
an early issue of DC's Captain Carrot and his Amazing Zoo Crew, CC flies by 
this huge Mecha-ish creature (the Crew was dimension hopping IIRC) and hits 
it as he goes by (this is after several of the other Crew members have gone 
down to this critter {or just before they do . . .}) and the sound effect is 
HIT!!!! and CC thinks: "hit?" 
 
BeerCarboy@AOL.com                               Carter Humphrey 
 
From ???@??? Thu May 22 19:22:16 1997 
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Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 06:05:13 -0500 (CDT) 
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Subject: Re: Flavor Lines 
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Not that it competes with an entire website, but one of my personal 
favourite "sounds of pain", from, of course, the Hulk (vs. UFO Ray) being 
shot in the back with a massive energy attack: 
 
        "Aaaarrrgggghhh! Higher! Higher! To the left! Ah. That's better." 
 
(Or words to that effect.) 
 
From ???@??? Thu May 22 19:22:27 1997 
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Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:58:31 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Flavor Lines! 
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On Wed, 21 May 1997 BeerCarboy@aol.com wrote: 
 
> Okay, to bring the intellectual level of this DOWN (if you can believe it) in 
> an early issue of DC's Captain Carrot and his Amazing Zoo Crew, CC flies by 
> this huge Mecha-ish creature (the Crew was dimension hopping IIRC) and hits 
> it as he goes by (this is after several of the other Crew members have gone 
> down to this critter {or just before they do . . .}) and the sound effect is 
> HIT!!!! and CC thinks: "hit?" 
>  
 
One of my favorite uses of a sound effect was back in the great  
Levitz/Giffen run on the Legion of Super-Heroes. As I recall the scene,  
Wildfire's girlfriend Dawnstar had just left him, largely due to the fact  
that his body was composed of formless energy. In frustration, Wildfire  
blew himself up, destroying his containment suit. The sound effect to the  
explosion, written in large sound effect letters, was "DAMN!"  
 
From ???@??? Thu May 22 19:22:28 1997 
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Subject: [Fwd: You might be a gamer if...] 
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The fwd. part is a friends own extra addings to the list.   
 
You might be a gamer if........ 
 
	You have ever told your girlfriend that you will be back in a segment. 
 
	you have ever actually held a martial arts tounament just to see if 
people really only have a 2-4 Spd. 
 
	you still own a first ed. of some old gaming book even though you know 
that you will never use it. 
 
	you have the same character written up once in enough systems to 
wallpaper your bathroom. 
 
	you know that if you want to run a 6hr. game to make it 9hrs so that 
you can actually play for 6. 
 
	 
Ah there are so many more........ 
Return-Path: <chenszu@juno.com> 
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Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 01:12:12 PST 
Subject: You might be a gamer if... 
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From: chenszu@juno.com (Jennifer J O'Malley) 
 
1) Every person that you have ever dated games. 
 
2) You met your current love interest  AT a game. 
 
3) You still game with your ex(s). 
 
4) You have a prepared speech in defense of gaming. 
  
5) You're told your parents more than once that gaming has nothing to do 
with Satanism. 
 
6) You've watched children on a playground, and decided that they have 
phantom hit points. 
 
7) You've looked at everyday objects, say a very large Shakespeare book, 
and decided how much damage it would inflict if used as a melee weapon. 
 
8) You say things like, "I'm taking damage", when something upsets your 
sensibilities. 
 
9) You're ever said anything like, "Man, I have an 8 Dex", when you trip 
or fall. 
 
10) Your dice bag CAN be used as a melee weapon.      
    
 
From ???@??? Thu May 22 19:22:31 1997 
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From: "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." <richberg@erols.com> 
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:45:01 -0400 
Subject: Re: Flavor Lines! 
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herolist wrote: 
>  
> From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
> Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
> Subject: Re: Flavor Lines! 
> To: champ-l@omg.org 
>  
> On Wed, 21 May 1997 BeerCarboy@aol.com wrote: 
>  
> > Okay, to bring the intellectual level of this DOWN (if you can believe it) in 
> > an early issue of DC's Captain Carrot and his Amazing Zoo Crew, CC flies by 
> > this huge Mecha-ish creature (the Crew was dimension hopping IIRC) and hits 
> > it as he goes by (this is after several of the other Crew members have gone 
> > down to this critter {or just before they do . . .}) and the sound effect is 
> > HIT!!!! and CC thinks: "hit?" 
> > 
>  
> One of my favorite uses of a sound effect was back in the great 
> Levitz/Giffen run on the Legion of Super-Heroes. As I recall the scene, 
> Wildfire's girlfriend Dawnstar had just left him, largely due to the fact 
> that his body was composed of formless energy. In frustration, Wildfire 
> blew himself up, destroying his containment suit. The sound effect to the 
> explosion, written in large sound effect letters, was "DAMN!" 
 
I remember a Nightcrawler story that was vaguely derivative of Burroughs'  
John Carter books. In it, when a airship exploded the sound effect was "BARSOOM".  
I was definately ROTFL. 
 
From ???@??? Thu May 22 19:22:33 1997 
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Subject: Real Martial Arts 
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From: tamolyn@juno.com (Michael S Mears) 
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All right. 
 
Since I have been told now on several occasions that I should not write 
"one-liners", I will now lecture at length.  I have tried to respond 
succinctly in the past, as is my wont.  However, in the interests of 
polite discourse, I will curb my tendency not to wander. 
 
I have been studying the martial arts since I was five years old.  I 
have, in that time, studied Kodokan judo, Shotokan karate, two different 
schools of Kempo, Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, and Jeet Kune Do.  I have also 
fenced, boxed, and wrestled. 
 
I get sick of people who don't know speaking. 
 
1.  Before you use any grappling attack, you must have your opponent 
off-guard.  No, you do not simply shoot on a Thai-boxer.  However, when 
the opportunity arises, taking a Thai-boxer to the ground is your optimal 
strategy. 
 
2.  If you study only kicking, or only punching, or only wrestling, you 
are a sucker.  You _must_ expand your ability.  The aforementioned 
Thai-boxer, if he had wrestling experience, would be able to counter a 
shoot, or escape from the ground, in order to continue to use his boxing 
skills. 
 
3.  No one art has the answers.  If one art had all the answers, no one 
would study anything else. 
 
4.  Jeet Kune Do is a concept, not an art.  Students are encouraged to 
study other arts, and incorporate useful concepts and movements.  In a 
sense, JKD is the only scientific approach to the martial arts.  Too many 
people take their martial arts on faith, without applying their reason to 
what is taught.  They get into endless arguments about whose art is 
better that resemble religious arguments, because neither side has any 
basis for argument other than faith.  De gustibus non disputatem est. 
 
5.  If you don't apply reason to your art, then you will lose to someone 
who does.  If you take your art on faith, without question, you will lose 
to someone who makes a rational inquiry.  You get locked into patterns 
and are at the mercy of someone trained to break those patterns.  It is 
for this reason that JKD has no forms. 
 
6.  It is extremely difficult to translate real fighting into a 
role-playing game.  Even Hero, which does it well, does not cover most of 
the problems.  In fact, it probably should not, as real fighting is an 
intellectual exercise that requires too much work for someone who is, in 
essence, at play. 
 
7.  If you don't try to gauge your opponent, you suffer from what 
Clausewitz called "the fog of war."  You must try, as much as possible, 
to _out-think_ an enemy -- especially one you cannot beat toe-to-toe.   
 
Michael Scott Mears 
TamOlyn@juno.com 
SB,>-- 
 
From ???@??? Thu May 22 19:22:34 1997 
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Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:36:21 -0700 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
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Michael S Mears wrote: 
  
<Michael's experience snipped.> 
  
> 1.  Before you use any grappling attack, you must have your opponent 
> off-guard.  No, you do not simply shoot on a Thai-boxer.  However, when 
> the opportunity arises, taking a Thai-boxer to the ground is your optimal 
> strategy. 
 
When I first saw "shoot" as a term on the list, I thought whoever said 
it meant shoot their legs with a gun... 
 
  
> 4.  Jeet Kune Do is a concept, not an art.  Students are encouraged to 
> study other arts, and incorporate useful concepts and movements.  In a 
> sense, JKD is the only scientific approach to the martial arts. 
 
American Kenpo does a lot with the scientific approach. I would say it's 
more the student & the instructor that determine how much tradition and 
how much thinking go into learning an art. 
 
<The rest of Michael's comments agreed with and snipped.> 
 
-Mark 
 
From ???@??? Thu May 22 21:31:08 1997 
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
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Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:17:23 -0500 (CDT) 
Message-Id: <199705222317.SAA11184@b04b17.exu.ericsson.se> 
Subject: CHAR: The Sleeper 
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Shape - shift persistent, no conscious control as to change. 
After asking for a sleeper writeup, I remembered that I had actually  
made one up.  What I did was give the cosmic power pool with limitations, 
then give an activation roll for every 10 points, in order to simulate 
the range of powers.  Then I gave physical limitations and distinctive 
features with a 'activation roll' to simulate occasional joker disadvantages, 
and decreased the points for the disadvantages appropriately. 
 
 
Curt Hicks 
 
 
 
>  
> On Wed, 21 May 1997, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>  
> > Alright, I don't know the books, but from the description Michael Surbrook 
> > gave he seems simple.  One power: 
> >  
> > VPP (100-300 base, however powerful he needs to be, you know the books, you 
> > tell me) Cosmic(+1), Can only change between games (-1/2), No Conscious 
> > Control (-2). 
> >  
> > Throw in the LS: Needs no sleep (-1/2 plot device limitation) 
>  
> The problem is, is that the Sleeper changes *completely* each time he 
> wakes.  It's more like a 'cosmic' multiform, in which there are an 
> infinate number of forms, each usable only once.  There is also the fact 
> that Sleeper can be anywhere from 50 to 500 points when he wakes up.  
>  
> He's a great 'plot' device character, and certainly a GM's dream, but I'd 
> never really allow him as a PC... too much of a head ache, and his falling 
> asleep for weeks at a time certainly would make including him into 
> adventures difficult. 
>  
 
From ???@??? Thu May 22 22:16:20 1997 
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Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 21:32:11 -0400 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@mars.superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: The Sleeper 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970521103021.21919C-100000@access5.digex> 
 > 
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At 10:38 AM 5/21/97 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Wed, 21 May 1997, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
> 
>> Alright, I don't know the books, but from the description Michael Surbrook 
>> gave he seems simple.  One power: 
>>  
>> VPP (100-300 base, however powerful he needs to be, you know the books, you 
>> tell me) Cosmic(+1), Can only change between games (-1/2), No Conscious 
>> Control (-2). 
>>  
>> Throw in the LS: Needs no sleep (-1/2 plot device limitation) 
> 
>The problem is, is that the Sleeper changes *completely* each time he 
 
How does VPP not handle "changes *completely*"?  Are you following the 
silly rule that you can't put characteristics in a VPP?  Then buy all of 
his (her?) stats up to 100 and put a -1 limitation on the stats "Only 
available in some forms."  (use activation as a guideline: if his STR is 
>20 all the time, you have no lim.  if STR >30 ~90% of the time assume -1/4 
on the 10 points from 21-30.  if STR >40 ~75% assume -1/2 on these 10 
points, etc.  Personally, I would just put a simple -1 or something on the 
whole stat which includes the -1/4 only this hero ID.) 
 
>wakes.  It's more like a 'cosmic' multiform, in which there are an 
>infinate number of forms, each usable only once. 
 
That's what No Conscious Control does for the VPP. 
 
>  There is also the fact 
>that Sleeper can be anywhere from 50 to 500 points when he wakes up.  
 
okay, so the VPP is 500 base points. 
 
>He's a great 'plot' device character, and certainly a GM's dream, but I'd 
>never really allow him as a PC... too much of a head ache, and his falling 
>asleep for weeks at a time certainly would make including him into 
>adventures difficult. 
 
But he makes a great visiting-player-needs-a-character character. 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 24 12:13:24 1997 
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you do the same!!! they share a common ancestry, nothing more. it is just plain stupid to think they are in any way related. 
 
 
 
At 03:04 AM 5/20/97 +0000, you wrote: 
>I beg to differ.  Read the alt.rec.martial-arts FAQ.  Read the history of 
>Judo and Jujitsu. 
> 
>At 02:36 PM 5/20/9 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 24 12:13:25 1997 
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At 07:05 PM 5/21/97 +0200, you wrote: 
>On Tue, 20 May 1997 jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
> 
>> >Um, just to point out something, judo is the sport form of juijitsu.  
>> > 
>> WRONG. jujitsu is a completly different art, and not nearly as effective. 
> 
>Oh. So the fact that all judoka admit/actively say that their form, judo, 
>is a toned-down, less lethal "sport" version of jujitsu is insignificant, 
>next to your total knowledge of jujitsu and judo? 
> 
>                  
ALL? WOW!! i must be talking to a real live psycic!! such comments are over simplified, and do not take into account the FUNCTIONS of the styles, only their origins. 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 24 12:13:26 1997 
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WRONG AGAIN! the kido styles originated in korea, and were ripped off from the japanese. 
it is not the 'sport form'- there is hardly any relationship at all. 
 
 
At 03:38 AM 5/20/97 +0000, you wrote: 
>At 02:36 PM 5/20/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
>>At 01:27 AM 5/19/97 +0000, you wrote: 
>>>At 10:58 AM 5/17/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
>>>>how about thai, cross-trained with judo? the best fighter is always a 
>>>hybrid, and i don't mean those fat boys in the ucf who pretend they can 
>kick.  
>>> 
>>>Um, just to point out something, judo is the sport form of juijitsu.  
>>> 
>>WRONG. jujitsu is a completly different art, and not nearly as effective. 
> 
>Well, gee aren't you just captain kung fu?  Judo was derived from juijitsu 
>in the 1800s.  Juijitsu is the form from which Judo, Aikido and Hapkido all 
>came.   
> 
>From the alt.rec.martial-arts FAQ: 
>"Judo is derived from Jujutsu (see Jujutsu). It was created by Professor 
>Jigoro Kano who was born in Japan in 1860 and who died in 1938 after a 
>lifetime of promoting Judo. Mastering several styles of jujutsu in his 
>youth he began to develop his own system based on modern sports principles. 
>In 1882 he founded the Kodokan Judo Institute in Tokyo where he began 
>teaching and which still is the international authority for Judo. The name 
>Judo was chosen because it means the "gentle way". Kano emphasised the 
>larger educational value of training in attack and defense so that it could 
>be a path or way of life that all people could participate in and benefit 
>from. He eliminated some of the traditional jujutsu techniques and changed 
>training methods so that most of the moves could be done with full force to 
>create a decisive victory without injury. " 
> 
 
and hence created a different art! 
 
>Gee, create a decisive victory without injury? Sounds like a sport to me. 
 
WRONG. are you suggesting tear gas is a sport? 
and the idea is so it can be practiced effectivley without limiting its potential. 
 
 
>I get really sick of all the "my Flowering Pig kungfu is better than your 
>Festering Boil style."  No one style is the be all end all of Martial Arts. 
> Every move has a counter move and many factors apply to the outcome of a 
>fight.  Strength and resistance to pain are two of the greatest, as are the 
>rules of contact.  How do you think Mike Tyson was able to defeat more 
>technical fighters?  ALL styles have their strengths AND weaknesses.   
> 
 
yes. but there ARE more and less practical styles!  
 
 
 
>There is also the factor of the instuctor's teaching style.  You may find 
>that dojo A of, say, Tae Kwon Do, is nothing more than preparation for 
>sport competition and dojo B teaches the asthetics and philosophy of Tae 
>Kwon Do.  Which is better?  Depends on the individual taking the 
>instruction.  Any supergrand master can be defeated.  Royce Gracie has been 
>defeated, big deal.   
> 
> 
 
*sigh* the priginal question reguarded practical fightiing techniques tought to  
agents.  
 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 24 12:13:28 1997 
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At 02:36 PM 5/22/97 -0700, you wrote: 
>Michael S Mears wrote: 
>  
><Michael's experience snipped.> 
>  
>> 1.  Before you use any grappling attack, you must have your opponent 
>> off-guard.  No, you do not simply shoot on a Thai-boxer.  However, when 
>> the opportunity arises, taking a Thai-boxer to the ground is your optimal 
>> strategy. 
> 
>When I first saw "shoot" as a term on the list, I thought whoever said 
>it meant shoot their legs with a gun... 
> 
>  
>> 4.  Jeet Kune Do is a concept, not an art.  Students are encouraged to 
>> study other arts, and incorporate useful concepts and movements.  In a 
>> sense, JKD is the only scientific approach to the martial arts. 
> 
>American Kenpo does a lot with the scientific approach. I would say it's 
>more the student & the instructor that determine how much tradition and 
>how much thinking go into learning an art. 
> 
 
all styl;es are scientific. but some people are elitist with their views, such as the boys at most JKD styles. 
 
 
><The rest of Michael's comments agreed with and snipped.> 
> 
>-Mark 
> 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 24 12:13:29 1997 
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Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:05:40 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
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Subject: Re: real world martial art 
References: <1.5.4.16.19970523132755.10afac28@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
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Mr Jones, 
 
If you feel you just HAVE to flame somebody, do it in private email.  
The rest of us don't need to see your immature rantings. 
 
And yes, I know I'm being a hypocrite sending this to the list, but 
every time I've sent private email to Mr Jones in the past, he has 
echoed it back to the list ANYWAY, so I figured I would save him the 
step. 
 
Todd 
 
 
jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
>  
> you do the same!!! they share a common ancestry, nothing more. it is just plain stupid to think they are in any way related. 
>  
> At 03:04 AM 5/20/97 +0000, you wrote: 
> >I beg to differ.  Read the alt.rec.martial-arts FAQ.  Read the history of 
> >Judo and Jujitsu. 
> > 
> >At 02:36 PM 5/20/9 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 24 12:13:53 1997 
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Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:54:32 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Fadeout 
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970523085328.6722F-100000@access2.digex.net> 
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FADEOUT 
(Philip Cunningham) 
 
Designers Notes: 
Fadeout is tall and athletic, standing 6' and weighing 170 lbs.  He is 
blonde and blue eyed, with handsome features and excellent taste in 
clothing.  His power is the ability to turn invisible.  It should be noted 
that his the 'fringe' effect on his invisibility is not a fringe outlining 
his body, but the fact that he must keep his eyes visible in order to see. 
He can make his eyes invisible, and lose the fringe effect, but he will 
also be blind as well.   
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		13		3 
Dex		16		18 
Con		15		10 
Body		13		6 
Int		18		8 
Ego		14		8 
Pre		15		5 
Com		14		2 
PD		6		3 
ED		4		1 
Spd		4		14 
Rec		6		0 
End		30		0 
Stun		28		0 
Char Total			78 
Power Total			132 
Total Cost			210 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
	MA: Kung Fu 
4	Block  +2 OCV  +2 DCV  Block, Abort 
4	Dodge  +0 OCV  +5 DCV  Dodge vs All, Abort 
4	Escape  +0 OCV  +0 DCV  28 STR vs Grabs 
5	Kick  -2 OCV  +1 DCV  6 1/2d6 Strike 
3	Legsweep  +2 OCV  -1 DCV  3 1/2d6 Strike; Target Falls 
4	Punch  +0 OCV  +2 DCV  4 1/2d6 Strike 
 
45	Invisibility: Sight Group, 0 END 
6	Enhanced Perception: Hearing +3 
 
3	Contact: Kien Phuc 12- 
5	Wealth 
5	Breakfall 13- 
3	High Society 12- 
2	KS: Kung Fu 11- 
3	KS: Shadow Fist Society 13- 
4	KS: Yoga 14- 
7	Lockpicking 14- 
3	Persuasion 12- 
3	Security Systems 13- 
11	Stealth 16- 
5	Streetwise 13- 
3	SL: +1 with all PRE skills 
 
Disadvantages	 
100	Base 
15	Psych: Greedy 
15	Psych: Very ambitious 
10	Watched: Shadowfist Society (MoPow) 11- 
65	Experience 
 
(Fadeout created by George R R Martin, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 24 12:13:55 1997 
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Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:49:36 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: real world martial art 
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970523133746.276f733c@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
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I got a great idea: Let's drop the argument of which martial art style is 
best, and get back to discussing Champions and the Hero System, or at the 
very least, some *more* related to comic books. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 24 12:13:56 1997 
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Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:52:33 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Cyclone 
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CYCLONE 
(Vernon Henry Carlysle) 
 
Designers Notes: 
Cyclone is moderatly tall and muscular, standing 5'11" and weighing 170 
lbs.  A well known ace from the West Coast, he possess the abilty to 
create and control winds.  Thus, he can fly, generate powerful wind gusts, 
pick up objects, are create a defensive shield.  He has a daughter, 
Mistral, with virtually the same powers as himself. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		13		3 
Dex		17		21 
Con		18		16 
Body		12		4 
Int		15		5 
Ego		13		6 
Pre		18		8 
Com		18		4 
PD		6		3 
ED		5		1 
Spd		4		13 
Rec		9		0 
End		46		5 
Stun		30		2 
Char Total			91 
Power Total			211 
Total Cost			302 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
30	EC: Air Control 
30	12d6 EB (physical), END 6 
40	8d6 EB, (physical), Double KB, END 7 
23	35 STR TK, 1/2 END, Requires large amounts of avaliable air, can 
	only really be used outside (-1/2), END 3 
20	20 PD/ED Force Field, 1/2 END, +2 DCV, Requires large amounts of 
	avaliable air, can only really be used outside (-1/2), END 2 
20	24" Flight (48" noncombat), 1/2 END, Requires large amounts of 
	avaliable air, can only really be used outside (-1/2), END 2 
 
9	Armor: 6 DEF, Act 14-, OIF: Body Armor 
3	IR Vision, OIF: Helmet 
1	Radio Hearing, OIF: Helmet 
 
3	Bureacratics 13- 
7	High Society 15- 
3	KS: Golfing 12- 
3	PS: Play golf 12- 
1	TF: Parachute 
5	Trading 14- 
1	WF: Shotguns 
12	CSL: +4 with Wind Control EC 
 
Disadvantages	 
100	Base 
15	Psych: Egotistical 
15	Psych: Glory hound, likes to be in the media eye 
10	Public ID 
157	Experience 
 
(Cyclone created by Steve Perrin, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 24 12:13:58 1997 
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Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:56:42 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Gimili 
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970523085527.6722G-100000@access2.digex.net> 
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X-UID: 11 
 
GIMILI 
(Tom Miller) 
 
Designers Notes: 
Gimili is a short, barrel-shested joker dwarf.  He stands 4' tall and 
weighs 130 lbs, with powerfully built arms and legs.  His hair is thick 
and reddish brown.  Gimili is a very angry individual, and tends to prefer 
radical politics and extreme measures when fighting for joker's rights. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		20		10 
Dex		15		15 
Con		20		20 
Body		15		10 
Int		14		4 
Ego		14		8 
Pre		18		8 
Com		10		0 
PD		8		4 
ED		6		2 
Spd		3		5 
Rec		8		0 
End		40		0 
Stun		35		0 
Char Total			86 
Power Total			20 
Total Cost			106 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
3	Contact: Jokers for a Just Society 12- 
4	KS: Politics 13- 
3	Oratory 13- 
3	Persuasion 13- 
3	Streetwise 13- 
1	WF: Pistols 
3	CSL: +1 with Block, Grab, Punch 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
15	DF: Short, barrel chested joker 
10	Phys: Dwarfism, 4' tall, 130 lbs 
10	Psych: Despises 'normals' 
10	Psych: Bad tempered 
15	Rep: Violent joker terrorist (ext) 11- 
 
(Gimili created by Stephen Leigh, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:59:48 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
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        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Mackie Messer 
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X-UID: 12 
 
MACKIE MESSER 
(Detlev Mackintosh aka 'Mack the Knife') 
 
Designers Notes: 
Mackie is a thin, pale, hunchbacked little man.  He stands 5'7" and weighs 
all of 125 lbs.  He has straw colored hair, sunken cheeks, bad skin, and 
is prone to facial tics.  He is usually very scruffily dressed. 
Unfortunatly, Mackie also happens to be a very potent ace.  His power is 
the ability to resonate his body's molecular structure, allowing him to 
walk through walls, as well as granting him the ability to make his hands 
vibrate so rapidly that they can cut through anything.  Note that Mackie 
can use this power while remaning Desolid.  Also note his Damage Shield, 
which represents his using his vibrating hands to block an opponent's 
strikes.  
  
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		8		-2 
Dex		9		-3 
Con		14		8 
Body		12		4 
Int		10		0 
Ego		10		0 
Pre		10		0 
Com		8		-1 
PD		4		2 
ED		4		1 
Spd		3		11 
Rec		5		0 
End		28		0 
Stun		21		0 
Char Total			20 
Power Total			316 
Total Cost			336 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
135	3d6 HKA, AP, Penetrating, Affects Solid, 0 END, Not vs Force 
	Fields (-1/2) 
56	1 1/2d6 RKA, Penetrating, Damage Shield, Affects Solid, 0 END, Not 
	vs Force Fields (-1/2), Must be aware of attack (-1/2) 
60	Desolidification: Affected by vibrational, sonic powers, 1/2 END, 
	END 2 
24	STR Affects Solid, 0 END 
 
3	Ambidexterity 
3	Contact: Senator Greg Hartman 12- 
1	KS: Politics 8- 
1	KS: Scrounging 8- 
9	Streetwise 14- 
1	Survival (city streets) 8- 
3	Lang: English (German native) 
20	CSL: +4 with HTH 
 
Disadvantages	 
100	Base 
10	DF: Thin, pallid hunchback 
20	Psych: Hates just about everyone (Jews, jokers, homosexuals, 
	homeless, the rich) 
15	Psych: Sadistic, likes to instill fear and cause pain 
15	Psych: Likes to kill 
176	Experience 
 
(Mackie Messer created by Victor Milan, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 24 12:14:01 1997 
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Subject: RE:MELTING - resent 
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I am resending this e-mail about melting.  It seems my e-mail server failed 
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From: Patrick Barden <absga@elbertonga.com> 
Subject: Invasion!?! 
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I am soon to be lauching my first alien invasion in a Champions Campaign.  I 
have been putting it off because the scale seems somewhat overwhelming.  I 
would appreciate the advice or suggestions of anyone who has played an invasion. 
 
Here are some of my questions: 
 
What can I do to keep things moving? 
What can I do to keep it fun and not bogged down? 
What are some short cuts you have learned? 
What are some mistakes that I can avoid? 
 
Anything else you might think of would be appreciated. 
 
Oh' in referring to manuals take note that I do not have access to more than 
a handful of the newest books.  (ie. Champions version 1-4, C:TNM, and 
Allies and Enemies Assemble are about it.) 
 
Patrick B. 
 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 24 12:14:09 1997 
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From: Patrick Barden <absga@elbertonga.com> 
Subject: Where can I find? 
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My local hobby store just went out of business :( 
 
Can anyone recommend a good, reliable mail order source for Champions and 
hero resources.  I am also looking for a good mail order source of general 
RPG materials such as dice, hex paper and mats, and other materials. 
 
Please send me the name and address of the company and if they have an 800 # 
or E-mail address or URL that would also be appreciated.  I would rather not 
give my address at this time, but if you want to contact me by snail-mail 
let me know and I will send you my address directly. 
 
Patrick B. 
 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 24 12:14:10 1997 
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From: Patrick Barden <absga@elbertonga.com> 
Subject: How many d6 does a papaer airplane do? 
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There is something I have never been able to determine satisfactorily, so I 
am seeking opinions from the group.  How do you figure out how much damage a 
thrown object will do when it hits a person.  I have been told that you do 
damage based on extra strength.  This doesn't seem quite right.  By this 
standard a paper airplane could be quite deadly in the hands of a strong 
enough brick.  One option I had tried was to reverse the damage rules for 
hitting a solid object (ie 1d6 per body and DEF of the object thrown).  Also 
converting this damage to a killing equivalent if the object thrown was 
sharp or similarly appropriate). 
 
Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated. 
 
Patrick B. 
 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 24 12:14:11 1997 
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From: Patrick Barden <absga@elbertonga.com> 
Subject: Custom Character Drawing 
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Over the last few years I have gotten into drawing pictures of mine and my 
friends characters.  I enjoy doing this and have considered offering to draw 
other peoples characters as well.  I usually work in pen and ink as well as 
colored pencil.  What I want to know is; is there an interest in this kind 
of work and what would be a fair price for and 8 1/2 X11 colored drawing. 
 
Feedback wanted. 
Also if you do something similar I would like to know how you handle matters. 
 
Patrick B. 
 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 24 12:14:12 1997 
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From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: How many d6 does a papaer airplane do? 
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At 02:35 PM 5/23/97 -0400, Patrick Barden wrote: 
>There is something I have never been able to determine satisfactorily, so I 
>am seeking opinions from the group.  How do you figure out how much damage a 
>thrown object will do when it hits a person.  I have been told that you do 
>damage based on extra strength.  This doesn't seem quite right.  By this 
>standard a paper airplane could be quite deadly in the hands of a strong 
>enough brick.  One option I had tried was to reverse the damage rules for 
>hitting a solid object (ie 1d6 per body and DEF of the object thrown).  Also 
>converting this damage to a killing equivalent if the object thrown was 
>sharp or similarly appropriate). 
 
   As far as I'm aware, there's no published rule covering this.  If there 
is, then ignore the rest of this post.   :-] 
   On the whole, I'd rule the opposite of what you say; that is, that 
objects do damage based on how much STR it takes to lift them.  Thus, if it 
takes 30 STR to lift an object, it does 6d6 damage when it hits. 
   Arguably, one could take a principle based on the Throwing Distance Table 
and assign the same proportions to damage; thus, if an object is either 
balanced or aerodynamic, the damage doubles, and if it's both, it 
quadruples.  Thus a billiard ball (which takes a *lot* less than 15 STR) 
could do 3d6 damage. 
   Than again, one could also put STR into the throw, up to doubling the 
damage from that.  Whether that STR is the STR behind the throw, the STR 
above what's needed to lift the object in the first place, or whatever 
amount of STR the character wants to use would probably depend on the flavor 
of the campaign (heroic vs superheroic, for instance). 
   Of course, the only hard and fast rule about this is that it's the GM's 
decision. 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
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Subject: Re: How many d6 does a papaer airplane do? 
Date: Fri, 23 May 97 16:00:12 -0400 
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On 5/23/97 2:35 PM, Patrick Barden (absga@elbertonga.com) Said: 
 
>There is something I have never been able to determine satisfactorily, so I 
>am seeking opinions from the group.  How do you figure out how much damage a 
>thrown object will do when it hits a person.  I have been told that you do 
>damage based on extra strength.  This doesn't seem quite right.  By this 
>standard a paper airplane could be quite deadly in the hands of a strong 
>enough brick.  One option I had tried was to reverse the damage rules for 
>hitting a solid object (ie 1d6 per body and DEF of the object thrown).  Also 
>converting this damage to a killing equivalent if the object thrown was 
>sharp or similarly appropriate). 
 
We have always ruled that a thrown object does 1d6 per 5 extra STR of the  
thrower, up to a maximum of the BOD of the object. 
 
  .oooO        | 
  (   ) Oooo.  | David A. Fair 
   \ (  (   )  | SDS International 
    \_)  ) /   | dfair@sdslink.com 
        (_/    | 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 24 12:14:15 1997 
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Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:55:46 -0400 (EDT) 
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: How many d6 does a papaer airplane do? 
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>There is something I have never been able to determine satisfactorily, so I 
>am seeking opinions from the group.  How do you figure out how much damage a 
>thrown object will do when it hits a person.  I have been told that you do 
>damage based on extra strength.  This doesn't seem quite right.  By this 
>standard a paper airplane could be quite deadly in the hands of a strong 
>enough brick.  One option I had tried was to reverse the damage rules for 
>hitting a solid object (ie 1d6 per body and DEF of the object thrown).  Also 
>converting this damage to a killing equivalent if the object thrown was 
>sharp or similarly appropriate). 
 
Any non-focus object (i.e. scenery) can only do as much dice of damage as 
its BODY + DEF, regardless of the STR of the user. So if I pick up a piece 
of paper on a superheroic (or heroic) battlefield and make a paper airplane, 
I could do a max of 1D6 damage with it (piece of paper is probably 0 DEF, 1 
BODY - note that dirt is 0 DEF too). You might be able to poke somebody in 
the eye and do damage, but that's about it. 
 
OTOH, if you bought a 3D6 HKA, Ranged with 'paper airplanes' as your SFX, 
then Bob's your uncle - you could do as much as 6D6 RKA, provided you've got 
enough STR. 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"All right, all right! I'll sit on your crummy lap! Anything!! Just stop 
disintigrating me!!" 
-Gold Digger 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 24 12:14:16 1997 
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From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Invasion!?! 
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At 02:35 PM 5/23/97 -0400, Patrick Barden wrote: 
>I am soon to be lauching my first alien invasion in a Champions Campaign.  I 
>have been putting it off because the scale seems somewhat overwhelming.  I 
>would appreciate the advice or suggestions of anyone who has played an 
invasion. 
> 
>Here are some of my questions: 
> 
>What can I do to keep things moving? 
 
   There are all sorts of things you can do here.  If things seem to be 
going too smoothly for the PCs, have a patrol of alien guards happen upon 
them.  (How much the PCs are surprised by this should depend on the story 
needs; the scene could become just a "Quick -- hide!" kind of encounter.) 
   Plan the major sequence of events in advance, knowing what will happen if 
the PCs don't intervene, how the enemies will react to the PCs' 
intervention, and so forth.  When things start slowing down, go on ahead 
with the next phase of the story.  That doesn't mean to not give them 
breathing room or time to recover their wits; pauses like that can be just 
as interesting as action.  It's just when things are looking boring that you 
should give them a scare or a surprise. 
 
>What can I do to keep it fun and not bogged down? 
 
   Don't be afraid to say, "Well, this isn't working, so let's end it."  For 
example, if the PCs' opponents are clearly beaten, they'll probably know it, 
and chances are against their fighting to the bitter end.  They might 
surrender, try to escape, or bring in some deus ex machina.  If the PCs are 
on the losing end of a combat that's getting boring besides, have a more 
powerful force show up to save their bacon (giving thanks for "keeping these 
guys busy until we got here," of course, just to make them feel useful). 
 
>What are some short cuts you have learned? 
 
   I don't have any, so I can't help you there. 
 
>What are some mistakes that I can avoid? 
 
   Most of the mistakes I've made are addressed in the Campaigning sections 
of the Champions and C:NM rulebooks.  There is one extra thing that I think 
will help for a long, involved scenario like this, though:  whenever an 
event is planned, go in ahead of time knowing just what you'll do if the PCs 
succeed in the encounter, and what you'll do if they fail.  Think through 
intermediate levels of success vs failure (such as capturing the terrorists 
but failing to locate and disarm the bomb).  If you make a rough flowchart 
of the events on this basis, your scenario will be that much better. 
 
>Anything else you might think of would be appreciated. 
 
   And I hope this works for you.   :-] 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 24 12:14:18 1997 
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Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:36:44 
From: John Turner <Avery1@flash.net> 
Subject: Re: real world martial art 
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970523133431.10aff328@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
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At 01:28 PM 5/23/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
>WRONG AGAIN! the kido styles originated in korea, and were ripped off from 
the japanese. 
>it is not the 'sport form'- there is hardly any relationship at all. 
 
And your sources are what? 
 
>At 03:38 AM 5/20/97 +0000, you wrote: 
>>At 02:36 PM 5/20/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
>>>At 01:27 AM 5/19/97 +0000, you wrote: 
>>>>At 10:58 AM 5/17/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
>>>>>how about thai, cross-trained with judo? the best fighter is always a 
>>>>hybrid, and i don't mean those fat boys in the ucf who pretend they can 
>>kick.  
>>>> 
>>>>Um, just to point out something, judo is the sport form of juijitsu.  
>>>> 
>>>WRONG. jujitsu is a completly different art, and not nearly as effective. 
>> 
>>Well, gee aren't you just captain kung fu?  Judo was derived from juijitsu 
>>in the 1800s.  Juijitsu is the form from which Judo, Aikido and Hapkido all 
>>came.   
>> 
>>From the alt.rec.martial-arts FAQ: 
>>"Judo is derived from Jujutsu (see Jujutsu). It was created by Professor 
>>Jigoro Kano who was born in Japan in 1860 and who died in 1938 after a 
>>lifetime of promoting Judo. Mastering several styles of jujutsu in his 
>>youth he began to develop his own system based on modern sports principles. 
>>In 1882 he founded the Kodokan Judo Institute in Tokyo where he began 
>>teaching and which still is the international authority for Judo. The name 
>>Judo was chosen because it means the "gentle way". Kano emphasised the 
>>larger educational value of training in attack and defense so that it could 
>>be a path or way of life that all people could participate in and benefit 
>>from. He eliminated some of the traditional jujutsu techniques and changed 
>>training methods so that most of the moves could be done with full force to 
>>create a decisive victory without injury. " 
>> 
> 
>and hence created a different art! 
> 
>>Gee, create a decisive victory without injury? Sounds like a sport to me. 
> 
>WRONG. are you suggesting tear gas is a sport? 
 
Yeah, I said that, uh huh, right.  Nice display of false logical deduction... 
 
>and the idea is so it can be practiced effectivley without limiting its 
potential. 
 
You were the one that mentioned tear gas.  I thought we were talking about 
martial arts. Also, did you catch the phrase in the above about 'MODERN 
SPORTS PRINCIPLES?'  
 
 
>>I get really sick of all the "my Flowering Pig kungfu is better than your 
>>Festering Boil style."  No one style is the be all end all of Martial Arts. 
>> Every move has a counter move and many factors apply to the outcome of a 
>>fight.  Strength and resistance to pain are two of the greatest, as are the 
>>rules of contact.  How do you think Mike Tyson was able to defeat more 
>>technical fighters?  ALL styles have their strengths AND weaknesses.   
>> 
> 
>yes. but there ARE more and less practical styles!  
> 
> 
> 
>>There is also the factor of the instuctor's teaching style.  You may find 
>>that dojo A of, say, Tae Kwon Do, is nothing more than preparation for 
>>sport competition and dojo B teaches the asthetics and philosophy of Tae 
>>Kwon Do.  Which is better?  Depends on the individual taking the 
>>instruction.  Any supergrand master can be defeated.  Royce Gracie has been 
>>defeated, big deal.   
>> 
>> 
> 
>*sigh* the priginal question reguarded practical fightiing techniques 
tought to  
>agents.  
> 
 
Yeah, and the answer to that is very little.  The type of agents in 
question get a basic self-defense training in their initial training, but 
move on to investigative and firearm techniques.  It is the individual that 
takes additional training upon himself.   
 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 24 12:14:22 1997 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: How many d6 does a papaer airplane do? 
References: <199705231835.OAA18064@emerald> 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "PB" == Patrick Barden <absga@elbertonga.com> writes: 
 
PB> There is something I have never been able to determine satisfactorily, 
PB> so I am seeking opinions from the group.  How do you figure out how 
PB> much damage a thrown object will do when it hits a person. 
 
If the character paid points for the object in question then the amount of 
damage it will do is based on what he paid for.  Otherwise the damage is 
either a) the character's Strength/5 or b) the character's Strength beyond 
what he needs to lift the object/5.  Use some common sense when figuring 
damage.  The maximum Body damage an object can do is equal to its DEF+Body. 
So, a paper airplane with 0 DEF, 1 BODY can do a maximum of 1 Body; I would 
call it a 1/2d6 normal attack. 
 
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--  
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: real world martial art 
References: <1.5.4.16.19970523133431.10aff328@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
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>>>>> "j" == jonesmj <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> writes: 
 
j> WRONG AGAIN! the kido styles 
 
Pardon me, but there are no "kido" styles.  There are "do" styles and 
"jutsu" styles, corresponding to "way" and "art".  Aikijutsu is "the art of 
Aiki" and Aikido is "the way of Aiki".  The forms are similar, but "do" 
styles encompass a philosophy: they are a way of life, whereas "jutsu" 
forms tend to concentrate on the martial (combat) aspects: they are an art 
of combat. 
 
And if you are going to flame people I would suggest doing so in private 
mail. 
 
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From ???@??? Sat May 24 12:14:25 1997 
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A 
>j> WRONG AGAIN! the kido styles 
> 
>Pardon me, but there are no "kido" styles.  There are "do" styles and 
>"jutsu" styles, corresponding to "way" and "art".  Aikijutsu is "the art of 
>Aiki" and Aikido is "the way of Aiki".  The forms are similar, but "do" 
>styles encompass a philosophy: they are a way of life, whereas "jutsu" 
>forms tend to concentrate on the martial (combat) aspects: they are an art 
>of combat. 
> 
 
hapKIDO!! aiKIDO!!  And your literal interpretations were valid about 100 years ago, and no longer. 
 
 
 
>And if you are going to flame people I would suggest doing so in private 
>mail. 
> 
 
 
i suggest you grow a thicker skin. i get pretty insulted by a lot of the things said on here, but i usually have the balls to grin and bear it. you do the same, and maybe we'll even get some stuff done, yes? 
 
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At 03:36 PM 5/23/97 +0000, you wrote: 
>At 01:28 PM 5/23/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
>>WRONG AGAIN! the kido styles originated in korea, and were ripped off from 
>the japanese. 
>>it is not the 'sport form'- there is hardly any relationship at all. 
> 
>And your sources are what? 
> 
how valid are yours??? can either of us prove anything at all?? HEY!!! how about we just drop it, like 90% of the list want us to do? 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 24 12:14:28 1997 
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Subject: Re: Invasion!?! 
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At 02:35 PM 5/23/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>I am soon to be lauching my first alien invasion in a Champions Campaign.  I 
>have been putting it off because the scale seems somewhat overwhelming.  I 
>would appreciate the advice or suggestions of anyone who has played an invasion. 
> 
>Here are some of my questions: 
> 
>What can I do to keep things moving? 
>What can I do to keep it fun and not bogged down? 
just chase the characters areund!!  
 
 
>What are some short cuts you have learned? 
>What are some mistakes that I can avoid? 
 
DON'T go overboard with lots of different critters. i finnd a single race much better, despite how cool ds's invasionstoryline was. 
 
 
> 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 24 12:14:32 1997 
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well, how about this: it IS stupid to make such a comparison between two such different arts, so all i was being is accurate. I don't give a cold rock in orbit if someone calls me stupid, so there really isn't much grounds for accusing me of flaming, is there? 
 
 
 
 
At 11:05 PM 5/22/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>Mr Jones, 
> 
>If you feel you just HAVE to flame somebody, do it in private email.  
>The rest of us don't need to see your immature rantings. 
> 
>And yes, I know I'm being a hypocrite sending this to the list, but 
>every time I've sent private email to Mr Jones in the past, he has 
>echoed it back to the list ANYWAY, so I figured I would save him the 
>step. 
> 
>Todd 
> 
> 
>jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
>>  
>> you do the same!!! they share a common ancestry, nothing more. it is just plain stupid to think they are in any way related. 
>>  
>> At 03:04 AM 5/20/97 +0000, you wrote: 
>> >I beg to differ.  Read the alt.rec.martial-arts FAQ.  Read the history of 
>> >Judo and Jujitsu. 
>> > 
>> >At 02:36 PM 5/20/9 
> 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 24 12:14:33 1997 
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From: S McGinness <smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk> 
Date: Sat, 24 May 97 12:23:40 GMT 
Message-Id: <7866.9705241223@csm.exeter.ac.uk> 
Subject: Re: Invasion!?! 
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At 02:35 PM 5/23/97 -0400, Patrick Barden wrote: 
>I am soon to be lauching my first alien invasion in a Champions Campaign.  I 
>have been putting it off because the scale seems somewhat overwhelming.  I 
>would appreciate the advice or suggestions of anyone who has played an 
invasion. 
> 
>Here are some of my questions: 
> 
>What can I do to keep things moving? 
 
Have you read the Harry Turtledove alien invasion books?? 
 
In the balance/Tilting the balance/ and something else about balance :-) 
 
There should be enough material for stuff to use in various 
scenarios to base a campaign around. 
 
Stephen 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 24 12:14:34 1997 
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Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 07:43:38 -0600 
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net> 
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S McGinness wrote: 
>  
> At 02:35 PM 5/23/97 -0400, Patrick Barden wrote: 
> >I am soon to be lauching my first alien invasion in a Champions Campaign.  I 
> >have been putting it off because the scale seems somewhat overwhelming.  I 
> >would appreciate the advice or suggestions of anyone who has played an 
> invasion. 
> > 
 
>  
> Have you read the Harry Turtledove alien invasion books?? 
>  
> In the balance/Tilting the balance/ and something else about balance :-) 
>  
Worldwar: In the balance, Tilting the balance, upsetting the balance, 
Finding the balance. 
 
Highly recomemnded reading.  
Also: 
 Footfall by Niven & Pournell 
 
The Invasion: Target Earth Module has some basic advice on running 
invasions. I found it usefull as a guide. 
 
Basic problems in running invasion stories... Why can this race defeat 
Humanity, and if it is "nearly unbeatable", how is it that the humans 
can actually win, all the while keeping a willing suspension of 
disbelief. That was the problem a lot of people had with "Independance 
Day".  
 
> There should be enough material for stuff to use in various 
> scenarios to base a campaign around. 
>  
> Stephen 
 
--  
-Mhoram 
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 
 two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright 
Mhoram's Fantasy Hero Domain: 
http://apeleon.net/~mhoram/hero/FHsplash1.htm 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 24 13:04:39 1997 
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> well, how about this: it IS stupid to make such a comparison between two 
> such different arts, so all i was being is accurate. 
 
Despite the accuracy of your comments (or lack thereof--I have no  
knowledge with which to confirm or dispute them), your lack of tact, and  
apparent immaturity, were inexcusable. 
 
> I don't give a cold 
> rock in orbit if someone calls me stupid, so there really isn't much 
> grounds for accusing me of flaming, is there? 
 
"I don't care if someone flames me, so therefore nobody can accuse me of  
flaming them"?  Perhaps you should re-evaluate the statement you just  
made. 
 
And while you're at it... 
 
*plonk*--this time, for good. 
 
HAND. 
 
--M 
 
-- 
korthmat@cps.msu.edu   http://www.cps.msu.edu/~korthmat 
*** People who send me UCE or UBE will be crucified. *** 
"Were you always this stupid--or did you take lessons?" 
"I took lessons!"     --_The Long Kiss Goodnight_ 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 26 21:06:00 1997 
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Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 14:26:57 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
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jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
>  
> well, how about this: it IS stupid to make such a comparison between two such different arts, so all i was being is accurate. I don't give a cold rock in orbit if someone calls me stupid, so there really isn't much grounds for accusing me of flaming, is there? 
 
 
Last time I checked, the purpose of this list was to discuss 
Champions/Hero, not martial arts, and certainly not as a free forum for 
any person to regularly insult the rest of the list.  It doesnt matter 
'a cold rock in orbit' how YOU feel about being called stupid, it 
matters how the rest of the list feels about it. 
 
If I remember correctly, you stayed on this list by the skin of your 
teeth once before when you insisted on making an ass of yourself 
repeatedly.  The only thing that saved you was the requests of a few of 
the respected members of the list asking that we give you a second 
chance.  The rest of us did, in the hopes that you would grow up.  
Apparently you arent ready to do that. 
 
Todd 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 26 21:06:04 1997 
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Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 14:39:18 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
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Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
 
> surrender, try to escape, or bring in some deus ex machina.  If the PCs are 
> on the losing end of a combat that's getting boring besides, have a more 
> powerful force show up to save their bacon (giving thanks for "keeping these 
> guys busy until we got here," of course, just to make them feel useful). 
 
 
This is one thing I would definately disagree with.  As a PC it would 
leave me feeling like I had wasted my time if I had just fought for my 
life against the aliens, only to have the big guns show up to bail me 
out.  I would be left with the 'why bother' attitude. 
 
Instead, make the aliens seem unbeatable, but leave a method (or more 
than one) where the PCs can discover a method to turn the tide of the 
battle, kind along the lines of how in Independance Day they discovered 
how to turn off the force fields of the alien ships (although I would go 
for something a little more believable) 
 
 
Let the PCs discover some alien technology that enhances their own 
powers - giving them additional firepower and defenses.  It doesnt have 
to be much - adding 2 to 4 dice to a standard attack makes it a really 
nasty attack.. add a 10/10 force field to their defenses and an alien 
gun that would have stunned them before is no more than a nuisance. Let 
the PCs feel like they defeated the aliens on their own by outsmarting 
them.  Of course, make the technology run off of an alien power source 
so you can get rid of it after this scenario...  
 
 
Todd 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 26 21:06:05 1997 
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Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 03:34:31 -0400 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
Subject: Re: Real Martial Arts 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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I've been avoiding posting more on this thread since it departed so much 
from what is relevent to champions but thought I should respond to at least 
a couple of things.  There are no Kido styles.  There are, however, do 
styles.  Kendo.  Judo.  Aikido.  Hapkido.  Yes, Aikido and Hapkido have kido 
in them.  Why? 
 
In Japanese Aikido is written with three characters. Ai-ki-do.  Do meaning 
'The way'  Ki meaning The spirit.  Ai meaning Harmony.  Thus it can be 
translated 'The way of harmony with the spirit.' 
 
Hapkido is a korean art and to be honest my knowledge of Korean is almost 
non existent.  However, according to an interview with Master Suh Bok Sup, 
one of the first students of the founder of Hapkido, Choi Yong Suhl, Hap Ki 
means total art.  Later on it sounds like another translation could be 
coordinated energy.  It was not until 1958 that the 'Do' was added to the 
name.   
 
Hope this helps with any misunderstandings. 
 
TokyoMark 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 26 21:06:07 1997 
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From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
Subject: Re: Real Martial Arts 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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I've been avoiding posting more on this thread since it departed so much 
from what is relevent to champions but thought I should respond to at least 
a couple of things.  There are no Kido styles.  There are, however, do 
styles.  Kendo.  Judo.  Aikido.  Hapkido.  Yes, Aikido and Hapkido have kido 
in them.  Why? 
 
In Japanese Aikido is written with three characters. Ai-ki-do.  Do meaning 
'The way'  Ki meaning The spirit.  Ai meaning Harmony.  Thus it can be 
translated 'The way of harmony with the spirit.' 
 
Hapkido is a korean art and to be honest my knowledge of Korean is almost 
non existent.  However, according to an interview with Master Suh Bok Sup, 
one of the first students of the founder of Hapkido, Choi Yong Suhl, Hap Ki 
means total art.  Later on it sounds like another translation could be 
coordinated energy.  It was not until 1958 that the 'Do' was added to the 
name.   
 
Hope this helps with any misunderstandings. 
 
TokyoMark 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 26 21:06:08 1997 
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Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 11:45:53 -0700 
From: michael <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
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Rob wrote: 
>  
> This isn't by way of flame, and don't take it the wrong way, but when I 
> dabbled in such things, I met or studied under three people who met or 
> studied under the man called the father of modern Aikido. All of them eighth 
> Dan. None of them used 'kido' as a term in itself, although several times 
> their lessons addressed the subjects of 'do', 'ki' and 'ai', which I'm sure 
> you well know mean 'way', 'personal energy' and 'harmony' in Japanese. None 
> of them mentioned Korea, either, in connection with Aikido. 
>  
 
rule of thumb: i don't consider critical comments flames. don't think i'm going to be  
offended by dialogue. i tend to ignore such concepts, so i doubt i'd have any grounds  
for going all high-minded on you . . . 
 
 
 
> Perhaps I'm reading too much into what you're saying. Did you only intended 
> to cover Hapkido (which a second Dan instructor did mention had some 
> connection to Korea to me) in your statement? 
>  
 
it was a classification which made sense: both styles are simmilar, and deal with the  
concept of 'ki', and have common ancestry - it was merly a classification, one which i  
have seen used many times. 
 
 
> And, while I am getting old, I promise you this happened much, much less 
> than a hundred years ago. Judo only descended from Jiujitsu a little over a 
> hundred years ago, and the popular explosion in the various jutsu's and do's 
> began in this century.  It is more like the distinction of 'do' and 'jutsu' 
> was less important literally a hundred years ago. Given that - despite 
> claims of 'Te' adherents to the contrary -martial arts in the Orient are 
> less than eight hundred years old (much less than the four thousand year 
> Western traditions of wrestling and boxing, or the approximate twenty five 
> hundred year history of martial forms in India, where the Western traditions 
> evolved into the roots of the Oriental martial arts) it surprises me that so 
> many people get carried away to the extent that they do about all this. I 
> think it's just the fascination people have with the exotic that makes them 
> forget it's just another version of a sport. 
> 
 
 
 
i agree! however, the idea of  "do-vs-jutsu" comes from earlier times, in feudal japan.  
different schools "something-jutsu" competed in war and duels. and the "do" concept came  
in with judo and the like later on.  AND, there is a great deal of evidence that martial  
arst originted all over the place, from very old roots, and evolved together over time.  
i think it is silly to think "we(korean styles)" "them(japanese styles)"  or "us(chinese  
styles"  were the progenetor of martial arts. 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 26 21:06:10 1997 
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From: Len Undy <bryce144@fan.net.au> 
Subject: Re: Invasion!?! 
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At 02:35 PM 23/05/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>I am soon to be lauching my first alien invasion in a Champions Campaign.  I 
>have been putting it off because the scale seems somewhat overwhelming.  I 
>would appreciate the advice or suggestions of anyone who has played an 
invasion. 
> 
>Here are some of my questions: 
> 
>What can I do to keep things moving? 
>What can I do to keep it fun and not bogged down? 
>What are some short cuts you have learned? 
>What are some mistakes that I can avoid? 
> 
>Anything else you might think of would be appreciated. 
> 
>Oh' in referring to manuals take note that I do not have access to more than 
>a handful of the newest books.  (ie. Champions version 1-4, C:TNM, and 
>Allies and Enemies Assemble are about it.) 
> 
>Patrick B. 
 
 
        I like my invasions to be BIG.  You shouldn't have too many of these 
type of Invasions, they should be BIG world shaking events.  The Aliens, 
preferably of the same type, should hit the earth by surprise and hard. 
Unless your governments in your campaign have encountered aliens before, 
they really shouldn't be prepared.  Perhaps they bombard the major cities of 
the world first, or disrupt communication.  Then they send in their 
unstoppable airforce(think ID4, or even Robotech).  This is where the heroes 
come in.  Ussaully the heroes base is in a city, so this is where you wipe 
out their base(in one of those-it looks trashed, but can still be rebuilt 
within a few weeks)   
        I like putting the heroes on the run in an Invasion, its one of the 
few opportunities that you get to do so. 
 
        Keep things moving: 
        1:      Keep the heroes on the run.  The Aliens are soon going to 
learn of the threat superheroes pose.  Therefore their going to want to take 
them down.   
        2:      Add lots of twist. eg.  A second Alien race, worse then the 
first attacks both sides.  Heroes must choose between the evil they know and 
a possible ally.  Shapeshifter that inflitrate the Hero community.  The 
aliens originally came from Earth and therefore have some claim over it. 
 
        Keeping it fun and not bogged down: 
        1:  In the "On the run" Invasion, the aliens will at first seem very 
powerful.  To avoid the feeling of "we can't win", show that the aliens do 
have major weaknesses.  See below for suggestions. 
        2:  Have lots of variety in your senarios(sp?).  This is a good 
excuse to send your heroes into all sorts situations around the world, and 
beyond 
        3:  Remember other heroes and villians.  Have major villians side 
with the heroes, and even show that the villians are human after all, 
compared to the aliens.  But also have villians side with the aliens.  eg. 
that evil corporation will build weapons for the aliens in return for 
advanced tech. 
        4:  Have you heroes hate the aliens.  This is doen in several ways. 
Have a hero ally die in a important fight, sacrificing himself in some way. 
Thus the heroes will seek some sort of revenge.  Have the heroes discover a 
concentration camp, where the human prisoners are about to be processed in 
food(but give the heroes a chance to save the victims before its to late). 
Finally, have the aliens seem, well, ALIEN.   Have there motivations seem 
completly inhuman.  Look to insects like ants, bees, and wasp, even spiders 
for ideas on this. 
 
        Notes: 
 
        1:  You must always decide how the aliens will be defeated in the 
end, before you start the campaign.  Are your heroes going to beat them to a 
stand still, causing the aliens to either respect human kind, or just give 
up.  Or are the heroes going to find the Hive Queen, kill her, and destroy 
the mother ship, thus wiping out all the aliens in one fell swoop.  This is 
the most important  part of an invasion, as you can then plan the steps 
leading upto it. 
 
ALIEN ENEMIES(some sterotypes for heroes to battle) 
1:  Standard hovertanks, spaceship fighters, armoured infantry etc. 
2:  Giant robots(hey don't knock 'em until you try 'em) 
3:  Powerarmour troops( perhaps their the aliens commandoes) 
4:  STEAL from movies, go on try it.  The Predator is just a powerarmoured 
assassin sent to kill the heroes, the terminator is standard troops, etc. 
5:  Alien Superheroes, furthering the Aliens ambitions.  The aliens have 
their own superheroe teams, etc. 
6:  Shapeshifters, inflitrators 
7:  Genetic expimentation:  All those humans, how can they resist using them 
in their experiments, perhaps making a new team of villians 
7:  Local villians: evil corporations, just plain stupid villians 
 
ALIEN WEAKNESS: 
 
1:  They aliens last studied the humans several hundred years ago, and 
expect a very basic level of tech.  Boy were they surprised when when they 
see us now.  However, they are still more advanced then us, but not that 
much more. 
2:  Limited numbers.  You can only fit so many soldiers on board the ship 
and the world is a big place.  The Aliens are slowly overextending their 
lines.  Combined with 1, the aliens are in big trouble. 
3:  Code of Honour, A Rule Book of War.  The Aliens are predictable, because 
of a code of honour or a strict set of rules on of war is fought.  Humans 
however are renowned for constantly changing the rules without consulting 
the enemy.  The Aliens even expect us to have the same rules, and are most 
confused with gurrila warfare and terrorist attacks. 
4:  Superheroes?  Aliens have never encountered something as strange as 
superheroes.  Super soldiers with thousands of different powers.  How does 
one plan against that. 
5:  Tratior!!  Perhaps some of the invaders actually like human kind, and 
will surply info and tech to the humans.  However, their pacifist and will 
not actually fight for the humans.  Another slant is that the helpers are 
another alien race hoping to use the humans against the invaders. 
6:  Drugs.  Didn't relize that ginger was so addictive to the aliens did 
you?  Addicts are willing to do anything for a little sample of their 
favoirite drug.  Even give info, or smuggle you aboard the mothership. 
7:  Enemy alien races.  Earth just happens to be the key to an intersteller 
war.  Whoever takes it will rule the universe.  Two or more alien races are 
invading.  Fortunatly the aliens see each other as stronger threats then the 
humans.  Heroes can use each of the aliens against each other in an attemt 
to weaken each of them for a final blow.  But can they do it before the 
earth becomes a wasteland. 
8:  Only one Megadeath weapon?  We only need one.  If the heroes can destroy 
the ship carry the megadeath weapon, the aliens will severly be weakened. 
9:  Time Limit.  The alien invasion is to prepare the earth for a colony of 
aliens.  The invaders must take the planet before a certain time or else. 
If the heroes can delay or even defeat the invasion, the aliens may be 
forced to negoitiate a peace treaty or loose thousands of alien civilians. 
 
        Well that all(!) I can think of now.  I hope this helps. 
 
        BRYCE 
        GRANDMASTER OF THE CENTRUIN IX ASSUALT FLEET 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 26 21:06:16 1997 
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Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 12:10:39 -0700 
From: michael <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
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Subject: Re: Invasion!?! 
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Todd Hanson wrote: 
>  
> Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> > 
>  
> > surrender, try to escape, or bring in some deus ex machina.  If the PCs are 
> > on the losing end of a combat that's getting boring besides, have a more 
> > powerful force show up to save their bacon (giving thanks for "keeping these 
> > guys busy until we got here," of course, just to make them feel useful). 
>  
> This is one thing I would definately disagree with.  As a PC it would 
> leave me feeling like I had wasted my time if I had just fought for my 
> life against the aliens, only to have the big guns show up to bail me 
> out.  I would be left with the 'why bother' attitude. 
>  
 
but the cavalry has to come alon once or twice: remember, the idea of global cooperation  
figures very strongly here. what better way to show it than have the "soviet  
supernaughts" turn up and save the characters ass, and then have the characters do the  
same?? it is a war, afteral, there should be wins and losses, and lots o' dead npc  
supers  :->~ 
 
 
 
 
> Instead, make the aliens seem unbeatable, but leave a method (or more 
> than one) where the PCs can discover a method to turn the tide of the 
> battle, kind along the lines of how in Independance Day they discovered 
> how to turn off the force fields of the alien ships (although I would go 
> for something a little more believable) 
>  
 
*sigh* no i really regret deciding not to be so abrasive. This is a cliche (no flame  
intended, todd) which has been done several times in billions of situations, and is one  
of the few plots used in startrek (no flame intended, universal studios!). I would  
aavoid it at all costs myself, but probably a better idea is to use it a littly bit  
(maybe neutralise a particular race in a coalition, for instance) but keep it to a  
minimum. 
 
 
> Let the PCs discover some alien technology that enhances their own 
> powers - giving them additional firepower and defenses.  It doesnt have 
> to be much - adding 2 to 4 dice to a standard attack makes it a really 
> nasty attack.. add a 10/10 force field to their defenses and an alien 
> gun that would have stunned them before is no more than a nuisance. Let 
> the PCs feel like they defeated the aliens on their own by outsmarting 
> them.  Of course, make the technology run off of an alien power source 
> so you can get rid of it after this scenario... 
>  
> Todd 
 
 
they did this in dc, i think(no flame intended, DC comics) 
and it's a bit mean(no fl-oh, forget it) maybe they could steal a ship or two, 
and maybe you could tell them to save their points before the scenario, so one or two of  
them can have a radiation accident? 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 26 21:06:18 1997 
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Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 12:01:02 -0700 
From: michael <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
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Subject: Re: Invasion!?! 
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S McGinness wrote: 
>  
> At 02:35 PM 5/23/97 -0400, Patrick Barden wrote: 
> >I am soon to be lauching my first alien invasion in a Champions Campaign.  I 
> >have been putting it off because the scale seems somewhat overwhelming.  I 
> >would appreciate the advice or suggestions of anyone who has played an 
> invasion. 
> > 
> >Here are some of my questions: 
> > 
> >What can I do to keep things moving? 
>  
> Have you read the Harry Turtledove alien invasion books?? 
>  
> In the balance/Tilting the balance/ and something else about balance :-) 
>  
> There should be enough material for stuff to use in various 
> scenarios to base a campaign around. 
> plus try to get hold of the old "INVASION: DCUNIVERSE" stories. they had some cool  
scenes of a united superheroic front, and a good set of cool potential scenes. 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 26 21:06:19 1997 
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Subject: Charges 
Date: Sat, 24 May 97 23:20:13 -0500 
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 
From: "John P. Weatherman" <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
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OK, this may seem a little strange, but can someone explain to 
me exactly why a charges limitation/advantage should EVER cost 
more that +1 for an autofire attack and +1/2 for a non-autofire 
attack?  It seems a little strange that having a limited number  
of shots, even a very large number of finite shots, is more 
limiting than not having any limit at all. 
 
Actually, allong those lines, it seems that an autofire charges 
attack should max out its advantage at +3/4 and a non-autofire 
at +1/4.  After all, shouldn't having a finite number of shots 
always be more limiting than not having ANY limit. 
 
Just curious what all of you are thinking on this. 
 
PAX 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
| Name: John P. Weatherman    | Phone:                             |       
   
| email: asahoshi@nr.infi.net |    (H) (910) 785-1130              | 
| fax:   (910) 748-4632       |    (O) (910) 545-2722              | 
|_____________________________|____________________________________| 
| He who walking on the sea could calm the bitter waves, who gives | 
| life to the dying seeds of the earth; He who was able to loose   | 
| the mortal chains of death and after three days' darkness could  | 
| bring again to the upper world the brother of his sister Martha: | 
| He, I beleive, will make Damasus rise again from the dust.       | 
|                              Pope St. Damasus I (c.305-384)      | 
|__________________________________________________________________| 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 26 21:06:20 1997 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: real world martial art 
References: <1.5.4.16.19970524153038.2847e872@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 24 May 1997 22:56:49 -0400 
In-Reply-To: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au's message of Sat, 24 May 1997 15:21:33 +1000 
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--text follows this line-- 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "j" == jonesmj <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> writes: 
 
j> hapKIDO!! aiKIDO!! 
 
Aikido is three words: ai: harmony, ki: spirit, do: way.  The entire 
meaning is, roughly, the way of harmony of the spirit.  Hapkido is also 
three words: hap: (roughly) coordinate, ki: energy, do: way.  The entire 
meaning roughly being, because my Korean is practically nonexistant, the 
way of coordinated energy.  The "do" part of Hapkido did not appear until 
the late 1950s -- less than the 100 years you claim makes "my" 
interpretation obsolete.  This was also about the time that Aikijutsu (the 
art of harmony with the spirit) mostly ceased being taught, replaced by 
Aikido (there are probably a handful of Aikijutsu schools around, but not 
many; an Aikijutsu practicioner is a rarity these days). 
 
Calling "do" styles "sport forms" is a misnomer of convenience. 
Competition between schools that teach a particular style is common.  To 
moderate these matches there are regulatory bodies that deliniate exactly 
what can and cannot be done during such matches, just as (I'm blanking on 
the name, the Earl of Queensbury?) did for Boxing, the manly art of 
fisticufs, over a century ago. 
 
One of the clearest examples of this is Kendo, which really is a sport form 
of Kenjutsu.  In the various schools of Kenjutsu, the Bushi's sword art, 
almost anything goes, as long as it leaves you standing and your opponent 
dead.  But in Kendo there are exactly 8 ways to hit your opponent, seven 
strikes to various parts of the upper body (head, torso, shoulders) and one 
thrust to the torso.  Anything else will cause you to be eliminated from 
the match.  Because Kendo rigorously enforces these in training they become 
reflexive.  This is a liability in a fight against anyone other than 
another Kendo practicioner because Kendo teaches to block only those 8 
strikes.  A Kendo master that practices no other art is practically 
defenseless against a 9 year old kid wearing heavy boots. 
 
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Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
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Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 21:06:46 -0700 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberhighway.net> 
Subject: Re: Charges 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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>OK, this may seem a little strange, but can someone explain to 
>me exactly why a charges limitation/advantage should EVER cost 
>more that +1 for an autofire attack and +1/2 for a non-autofire 
>attack?  It seems a little strange that having a limited number  
>of shots, even a very large number of finite shots, is more 
>limiting than not having any limit at all. 
 
I have a house rule along those lines, it's a silly holdover from the old 
reduced END rules. 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
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Subject: Re: Charges 
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> Subject:       Charges 
> Date:          Sat, 24 May 97 23:20:13 -0500 
> From:          "John P. Weatherman" <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
> To:            champ-l@omg.org 
 
> OK, this may seem a little strange, but can someone explain to 
> me exactly why a charges limitation/advantage should EVER cost 
> more that +1 for an autofire attack and +1/2 for a non-autofire 
> attack?  It seems a little strange that having a limited number  
> of shots, even a very large number of finite shots, is more 
> limiting than not having any limit at all. 
>  
> Actually, allong those lines, it seems that an autofire charges 
> attack should max out its advantage at +3/4 and a non-autofire 
> at +1/4.  After all, shouldn't having a finite number of shots 
> always be more limiting than not having ANY limit. 
>  
> Just curious what all of you are thinking on this. 
>  
> PAX 
 
 
  Well, it seems to me that while you have a limited number of shots you also  
are getting those shots at no endurance.  The no endurance is a 1/2 mod. off  
the top and autofire makes it possible to fire off more shots than would  
otherwise be given to a hero of the same speed.   
 
  I think that the way charges are, are fine.  If anything, I think that the  
'clips' section of the rules is a little kind, but that is a loophole I can  
live with. 
 
John 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 26 21:06:26 1997 
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Subject: Active Costs 
Date: Sun, 25 May 97 07:45:04 -0500 
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Has anyone else noticed that while Hero suggests things 
like a 60 Active Point limit for attack powers of beginning 
characters, they also create their "standard" weapondry at 
closer to 100 Active Points?  I'm refering in particular to  
CyberHero which is my best available Hero source for  
technotoys. Does anyone have any house rules for allowing  
heros to use the more powerful standard weapons that hero 
releases?  In particular, many of my character concepts have 
military backgrounds, so it gets quite frustrating to be 
unable to build military grade gear that's usable. 
 
PAX 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
| Name: John P. Weatherman    | Phone:                             |       
   
| email: asahoshi@nr.infi.net |    (H) (910) 785-1130              | 
| fax:   (910) 748-4632       |    (O) (910) 545-2722              | 
|_____________________________|____________________________________| 
| He who walking on the sea could calm the bitter waves, who gives | 
| life to the dying seeds of the earth; He who was able to loose   | 
| the mortal chains of death and after three days' darkness could  | 
| bring again to the upper world the brother of his sister Martha: | 
| He, I beleive, will make Damasus rise again from the dust.       | 
|                              Pope St. Damasus I (c.305-384)      | 
|__________________________________________________________________| 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 26 21:06:27 1997 
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Subject: Re: Charges 
Date: Sun, 25 May 97 07:45:01 -0500 
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From: "John P. Weatherman" <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
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>> OK, this may seem a little strange, but can someone explain to 
>> me exactly why a charges limitation/advantage should EVER cost 
>> more that +1 for an autofire attack and +1/2 for a non-autofire 
>> attack?  It seems a little strange that having a limited number  
>> of shots, even a very large number of finite shots, is more 
>> limiting than not having any limit at all. 
>>  
>  Well, it seems to me that while you have a limited number of shots you  
>also are getting those shots at no endurance.  The no endurance is a 1/2  
>mod. off the top and autofire makes it possible to fire off more shots  
>than would otherwise be given to a hero of the same speed.   
 
That's actually my point.  The only advantage that charges give is No END  
on 
the shot.  So why should the charges "Advantage" cost more than the  
equivilent 
reduced END cost?  Even the Continuing Charges Rules seem awfully  
expensive. 
I can have 250 charges that last 1 hour each as a +2 1/4 Advantage, or 
Unlimited No END Continuous Uncontrolled Shots that never time out for  
a +2 Advantage. 
 
My thought is just that Charges as an Advantage shouldn't ever cost more  
than  
if you just built the power as a Reduced Endurance Construct, and IMHO  
should 
be a hair cheaper.  
 
>  I think that the way charges are, are fine.  If anything, I think that the  
>'clips' section of the rules is a little kind, but that is a loophole I can  
>live with. 
 
The clips rules are the only thing that has made Charges useful at all to  
me. 
At least with autofire, I can build a reasonably accurate automatic weapon 
that doesn't completely break Active Point limits just building a 2d6 KA,  
the 
standard for military grade gear in the Viper suppliment as well as  
CyberHero. 
I'm not sure why your considering them a loophole. 
 
PAX 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
| Name: John P. Weatherman    | Phone:                             |       
   
| email: asahoshi@nr.infi.net |    (H) (910) 785-1130              | 
| fax:   (910) 748-4632       |    (O) (910) 545-2722              | 
|_____________________________|____________________________________| 
| He who walking on the sea could calm the bitter waves, who gives | 
| life to the dying seeds of the earth; He who was able to loose   | 
| the mortal chains of death and after three days' darkness could  | 
| bring again to the upper world the brother of his sister Martha: | 
| He, I beleive, will make Damasus rise again from the dust.       | 
|                              Pope St. Damasus I (c.305-384)      | 
|__________________________________________________________________| 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 26 21:06:28 1997 
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From: S McGinness <smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk> 
Date: Sun, 25 May 97 17:29:09 GMT 
Message-Id: <11415.9705251729@csm.exeter.ac.uk> 
Subject: Re:  Active Costs 
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X-UIDL: ee3330a770432193e9a6e98b8a0cc1aa 
 
"John P. Weatherman" <asahoshi@net.infi.nr> 
>Has anyone else noticed that while Hero suggests things 
>like a 60 Active Point limit for attack powers of beginning 
>characters, they also create their "standard" weapondry at 
>closer to 100 Active Points?  I'm refering in particular to 
>CyberHero which is my best available Hero source for 
>technotoys. Does anyone have any house rules for allowing 
>heros to use the more powerful standard weapons that hero 
>releases?  In particular, many of my character concepts have 
>military backgrounds, so it gets quite frustrating to be 
>unable to build military grade gear that's usable. 
 
My My John, we are full of questions this weekend aren't we? :-) 
 
I have broken away completely with limiting the active point cost 
of things. I don't think it is a good way to balance out the 
various powers you might come up with. I'm not trying to say that 
a point is not getting you a points value anywhere, though we all 
realise that things aren't (and can never truly be 100% balanced), 
but if you buy a 100 point power then it will give 100 point value, 
if you place limitations on it then it tends to give 100 point value 
_some_ of the time. Why should players be limited to either 60 
points all the time, or 60 points some of the time, and in some cases 
60 points none of the time?? If the utility of a power is very 
limited then I'll tend to allow higher point powers. If the power 
is limited in effectiveness then I'll always allow higher point 
powers. The active point might be a good initial point to start 
limitations but I tend to use it more as a guide than a rule. 
 
 
Stephen 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 26 21:06:30 1997 
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Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 12:37:38 -0500 (CDT) 
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From: Rob <rvb@visi.com> 
Subject: Re: Charges 
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Part of the figuring of the value of limitations is in figuring the 
pragmatic value, not the hypothetical one. Up around 250 charges, on a 
single use attack, you're talking about over fifty turns of ordinary combat. 
I don't know anyone whose single adventures go through so much combat. This 
is ten or more average combats in my Champions experience. For a single 
attack used routinely, about sixteen to thirty uses for even the longest 
adventure would be about as much as pragmatically would be used. 
 
Turning to the case of autofire attacks, there's a whole other kettle of 
fish. Autofire attacks redistribute the odds on Stun Lotto effects of both 
normal and killing attacks, skewing in favour of Stunning. The difference is 
so dramatic in the case of killing attacks that my house rule doubles the 
cost of autofire charges on KA's. The mathematics of this is fairly 
involved, for a short reply, but it seemed to balance fairly well over a 
course of five years of weekly campaigns. 
 
As for inconsistencies in costs, sure, at the extreme limits of the rules, 
things often get a bit distorted. That's why GM's exercise discretion. 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 26 21:06:32 1997 
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Subject: Re: Charges 
Date: Sun, 25 May 97 12:15:34 -0500 
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 
From: "John P. Weatherman" <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
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>The limitation is that the shots do not cost the character Endurance to 
>use.. while a character without charges can rest and recuperate thus 
>gaining endurance back.. the character with the charges can run out if 
>the story line does not allow him the chance to recharge. 
 
That's why I was asking about a +1/2 / +1 cap for regular/autofire  
attacks.  No END cost on a normal attack is a +1/2 Advantage and on  
an autofire attack is a +1 advantage.  Sence the only "Advantage" of 
charges is No END, it seems the advantage cost should max out at the 
same levels No END itself does. 
 
PAX. 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
| Name: John P. Weatherman    | Phone:                             |       
   
| email: asahoshi@nr.infi.net |    (H) (910) 785-1130              | 
| fax:   (910) 748-4632       |    (O) (910) 545-2722              | 
|_____________________________|____________________________________| 
| He who walking on the sea could calm the bitter waves, who gives | 
| life to the dying seeds of the earth; He who was able to loose   | 
| the mortal chains of death and after three days' darkness could  | 
| bring again to the upper world the brother of his sister Martha: | 
| He, I beleive, will make Damasus rise again from the dust.       | 
|                              Pope St. Damasus I (c.305-384)      | 
|__________________________________________________________________| 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 26 21:06:33 1997 
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From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
Subject: Rengeration Question 
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Does anyone have a system for derterming the length of time need to regrow 
limbs/organs for characters with rengeration? Any suggestions would be well 
appreciated,thanks. 
 
	Can God make a plot so twisted even he can't figure it out? 
			Tom Servo -MST 3K "The Island of Dr Fu Manchu"  
 
From ???@??? Mon May 26 21:06:34 1997 
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From: Jens-Arthur Leirbakk <leirbakk@stud.ntnu.no> 
Subject: Re: Rengeration Question 
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970525232714.091762f8@uky.campus.mci.net> 
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On Mon, 26 May 1997, Kim Foster wrote: 
 
> Does anyone have a system for derterming the length of time need to regrow 
> limbs/organs for characters with rengeration? Any suggestions would be well 
> appreciated,thanks. 
>  
> 	Can God make a plot so twisted even he can't figure it out? 
> 			Tom Servo -MST 3K "The Island of Dr Fu Manchu"  
 
Well, I'd perhaps guess something along these lines: First, figure out the 
maximum amount of Body that limb can take, based on the Body multiple in 
that area. For instance, I believe that an arm is .5. Thus, if a character 
has 30 Body, then that character's "arm body" is 15. Then, let's say that 
this number represents the number of months it takes for a character's 
limb to regrow (unless you want real 4-color, then you say weeks or days 
or whatever). Divide that on the Body/turn of the Regeneration power to 
find the total time needed to regrow that limb. Example: The character has 
a 4 Body Regeneration, and lost that arm. 15/4 is somewhat under 4 months, 
so it'll take 3 months and 3 weeks to completely regrow that arm. It is 
probable that the character will be able to actually use the arm in but a 
fraction of that time, but it will not be back to normal strength until 3 
months and 3 weeks have passed. If that seems long to you, then use weeks 
as your base time unit, or what have you. 
 
                 =============================================== 
                 =            Jens-Arthur Leirbakk             = 
                 =       e-mail: leirbakk@stud.ntnu.no         = 
                 = http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~leirbakk/index.html = 
                 =    Smash forehead on keyboard to continue   = 
                 =============================================== 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 26 21:06:37 1997 
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Subject: Re: Rengeration Question 
Date: Mon, 26 May 97 08:46:17 -0500 
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
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>>On Mon, 26 May 1997, Kim Foster wrote: 
> 
>> Does anyone have a system for derterming the length of time need to regrow 
>> limbs/organs for characters with rengeration? Any suggestions would be well 
>> appreciated,thanks. 
 
>On Mon, 26 May 1997, Jens-Arthur Leirbakk wrote: 
> 
>Well, I'd perhaps guess something along these lines: First, figure out the 
>maximum amount of Body that limb can take, based on the Body multiple in 
>that area. For instance, I believe that an arm is .5. Thus, if a character 
>has 30 Body, then that character's "arm body" is 15. Then, let's say that 
>this number represents the number of months it takes for a character's 
>limb to regrow (unless you want real 4-color, then you say weeks or days 
>or whatever). Divide that on the Body/turn of the Regeneration power to 
>find the total time needed to regrow that limb. Example: The character has 
>a 4 Body Regeneration, and lost that arm. 15/4 is somewhat under 4 months, 
>so it'll take 3 months and 3 weeks to completely regrow that arm. It is 
>probable that the character will be able to actually use the arm in but a 
>fraction of that time, but it will not be back to normal strength until 3 
>months and 3 weeks have passed. If that seems long to you, then use weeks 
>as your base time unit, or what have you. 
 
Another approach would be to simply slide the regeneration down to Body  
per  
day.  In the example above, that would allow the arm to grow back in a  
litle  
over four days.  For higher regens if would be faster and for (in my  
experience  
more common) slower regens it would take longer.  In any case, a  
regenerating  
character has their arm back in 16 days.  This seems about right for four  
color. 
About the highest regen I've ever seen actually used was 5/TURN, which  
would 
still require 3 days to recover (and considering the same character can  
recover 
from near fatal wounds, say -29 BODY, in just over 2 minutes) this still  
feels 
about right for a four color.  In Dark Champions, I'd probably say  
Jens-Arthur's 
approach works better.  Reguardless, depending on the special effect, it  
might 
be reasonable to allow for "reapplying the severed limb" assuming it  
wasn't  
destroyed, only lopped off, and allow normal regeneration to work. 
 
PAX. 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
| Name: John P. Weatherman    | Phone:                             |       
   
| email: asahoshi@nr.infi.net |    (H) (910) 785-1130              | 
| fax:   (910) 748-4632       |    (O) (910) 545-2722              | 
|_____________________________|____________________________________| 
| He who walking on the sea could calm the bitter waves, who gives | 
| life to the dying seeds of the earth; He who was able to loose   | 
| the mortal chains of death and after three days' darkness could  | 
| bring again to the upper world the brother of his sister Martha: | 
| He, I beleive, will make Damasus rise again from the dust.       | 
|                              Pope St. Damasus I (c.305-384)      | 
|__________________________________________________________________| 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 26 21:06:38 1997 
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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:50:59 -0500 (CDT) 
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From: Rob <rvb@visi.com> 
Subject: Re: Regeneration 
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While I can appreciate the dramatic effect of slow regeneration of limbs, my 
own take on the issue is that the limb is restored as soon as all BODY taken 
in the injury that severed it is restored, unless the special effects or 
circumstances interfere. 
 
This is more satisfying to me that alternatives based on 'proportion of 
BODY'. After all, why should a character who loses an arm, having paid 
nothing for BODY, get it back in a third the time that an otherwise 
identical character, paying 40 points more for BODY, does? (To cite the 
example of the 30 BODY one-armed regenerator.) 
 
I suggest, if you need slower regeneration, just attribute it to 
circumstances, and set an arbitrary duration based on measures the character 
takes. Rest in bed attended by excellent caregivers being faster, trekking 
through disease-infested swamps slower. 
 
From ???@??? Mon May 26 21:06:40 1997 
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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:33:59 -0700 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberhighway.net> 
Subject: Hughes Academy Game 
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Okay, the game is full, thanks for everyone's submissions and suggestions. 
I have the following information from each player, for those of you without 
a full character and a background please get those to me soon, I would like 
to get started by next Monday (June 1). 
 
Anthony MacElroy --- character 
John Jerles --- character and background 
Rafael Sant'Anna --- character and background 
Razor Sharp --- character outline 
Captain Spith --- character and background 
jnealis (sorry, I neglected to write your name down) --- letter of intent 
Will Austin --- character and background 
Alex Rojas --- character 
Bryce --- character and background 
Carolyn Vaughan --- character and background 
flacksd@evron.com (sorry, I neglected to write your name down) --- character 
MartinTucker --- Letter of Intent 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 27 18:21:59 1997 
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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:42:29 -0700 
From: michael <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
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Subject: Re: Active Costs 
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John P. Weatherman wrote: 
>  
> Has anyone else noticed that while Hero suggests things 
> like a 60 Active Point limit for attack powers of beginning 
> characters, they also create their "standard" weapondry at 
> closer to 100 Active Points?  I'm refering in particular to 
> CyberHero which is my best available Hero source for 
> technotoys. Does anyone have any house rules for allowing 
> heros to use the more powerful standard weapons that hero 
> releases?  In particular, many of my character concepts have 
> military backgrounds, so it gets quite frustrating to be 
> unable to build military grade gear that's usable. 
>  
> PAX 
 
why not just ignore the llimits?? i tend to think any active points limint is stupid . .  
. what's the difference between 60 and 63? 
 
 
>  
> ____________________________________________________________________ 
> | Name: John P. Weatherman    | Phone:                             | 
>  
> | email: asahoshi@nr.infi.net |    (H) (910) 785-1130              | 
> | fax:   (910) 748-4632       |    (O) (910) 545-2722              | 
> |_____________________________|____________________________________| 
> | He who walking on the sea could calm the bitter waves, who gives | 
> | life to the dying seeds of the earth; He who was able to loose   | 
> | the mortal chains of death and after three days' darkness could  | 
> | bring again to the upper world the brother of his sister Martha: | 
> | He, I beleive, will make Damasus rise again from the dust.       | 
> |                              Pope St. Damasus I (c.305-384)      | 
> |__________________________________________________________________| 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 27 18:22:01 1997 
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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:45:13 -0700 
From: michael <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
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Subject: Re: Rengeration Question 
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I do organ damage as a plot concept, and use a ten point 'bonus' body cost for a normal 
organ/limb/bit. Also you could try a bonus cost as a function of total body. 
 
 
 
Kim Foster wrote: 
>  
> Does anyone have a system for derterming the length of time need to regrow 
> limbs/organs for characters with rengeration? Any suggestions would be well 
> appreciated,thanks. 
>  
>         Can God make a plot so twisted even he can't figure it out? 
>                         Tom Servo -MST 3K "The Island of Dr Fu Manchu" 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 27 18:22:02 1997 
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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 23:31:56 -0400 (EDT) 
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Active Costs 
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>why not just ignore the llimits?? i tend to think any active points limint 
is stupid . .  
>. what's the difference between 60 and 63? 
 
Last time I looked, it was 3. :-) I've always thought of the 'active point 
limit' as more of a guideline. Especially with very heavily advantaged 
powers, where the difference between 3D6 of effect and 4D6 of effect can 
mean 15-20 points. So you either allow a 70 point power or force the PC to 
take a 50 point power - heck, give him the 70 pointer. 'Raw' powers, 
however, should adhere more closely to the AP limit. 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"All right, all right! I'll sit on your crummy lap! Anything!! Just stop 
disintigrating me!!" 
-Gold Digger 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 27 18:22:03 1997 
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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:03:34 -0700 
From: "HAPPYELF!!!!" <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
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John and Ron Prins wrote: 
>  
> >why not just ignore the llimits?? i tend to think any active points limint 
> is stupid . . 
> >. what's the difference between 60 and 63? 
>  
> Last time I looked, it was 3. :-) I've always thought of the 'active point 
> limit' as more of a guideline. Especially with very heavily advantaged 
> powers, where the difference between 3D6 of effect and 4D6 of effect can 
> mean 15-20 points. So you either allow a 70 point power or force the PC to 
> take a 50 point power - heck, give him the 70 pointer. 'Raw' powers, 
> however, should adhere more closely to the AP limit. 
>  
 
 
i agree! however, i would still like to abolish the whole idea, or put it all in  
gm-campagn control . . . 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 27 18:22:05 1997 
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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 02:57:41 -0400 (EDT) 
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Subject: Recoveries 
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Okay, 
 
A fellow Champions GM and friend of mine just ran a strange idea past me.  He 
has abolished the post segment 12 recovery in his combats.  He says "If you 
want a recovery, you gotta take one.  I'm not handing you one on a silver 
platter"  (or words to that effect).  He claims it greatly speeds up his 
combats and does not change the feel of the game. 
 
I'm intrigued.  I'm not running a game right now and have had no opportunity 
to give it a whirl.  Have any of you out there tried this or anything 
similar?  And if so, what are your thoughts?  Heck, even if you haven't tried 
it what are your thoughts? 
 
Jay A 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 27 18:22:06 1997 
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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 01:55:03 -0600 
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net> 
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Subject: Re: Recoveries 
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HoosierJA@aol.com wrote: 
>  
> Okay, 
>  
> A fellow Champions GM and friend of mine just ran a strange idea past me.  He 
> has abolished the post segment 12 recovery in his combats.  He says "If you 
> want a recovery, you gotta take one.  I'm not handing you one on a silver 
> platter"  (or words to that effect).  He claims it greatly speeds up his 
> combats and does not change the feel of the game. 
>  
> I'm intrigued.  I'm not running a game right now and have had no opportunity 
> to give it a whirl.  Have any of you out there tried this or anything 
> similar?  And if so, what are your thoughts?  Heck, even if you haven't tried 
> it what are your thoughts? 
>  
> Jay A 
 
I personally thing it would shift the balance of power off. Bricks (for 
instance) usually have low speeds and high recoveries. Without a post 
12, they wouldn't be able to absorb damage anywhere near as well. A 
speedster or High speed MA could afford to blow a phase to recover, but 
the low speed bricks couldn't.  
 
End use could also get to be a problem. 
 
This kind of rule could work well for a dark Champs, but I don't think 
it would fly well in a Four color.  
 
All the previous is IMHO, of course. 
 
 
A question of my own, while on the subject. When we had a player that 
came in from another campaign (ie we didn't teach him) we found a 
differance of style, with no real basis for doing things whichever way; 
to wit: Post 12's in our game were for Stun/End recoveries only. The way 
his group had always run it, that if you get stunned in 12, your post 12 
goes to recovering from being stunned, and thus doesn't help end/stun. 
Does any of the list at large do this?  
 
We don't have difficuties here because of the differance (we are adults 
after all) but are curious as to how others do it. 
 
--  
-Mhoram 
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 
 two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright 
Mhoram's Fantasy Hero Domain: 
http://apeleon.net/~mhoram/hero/FHsplash1.htm 
 
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From: Wayne J Shaw <shaw@IDT.NET> 
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Subject: Re: Recoveries 
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On Tue, 27 May 1997 HoosierJA@aol.com wrote: 
 
> Okay, 
>  
> A fellow Champions GM and friend of mine just ran a strange idea past me.  He 
> has abolished the post segment 12 recovery in his combats.  He says "If you 
> want a recovery, you gotta take one.  I'm not handing you one on a silver 
> platter"  (or words to that effect).  He claims it greatly speeds up his 
> combats and does not change the feel of the game. 
>  
> I'm intrigued.  I'm not running a game right now and have had no opportunity 
> to give it a whirl.  Have any of you out there tried this or anything 
> similar?  And if so, what are your thoughts?  Heck, even if you haven't tried 
> it what are your thoughts? 
 
Well, it'll certainly do that.  But it also overly rewards a high 
movement, high speed person, who can afford to duck around a corner and 
recover, while his lesser bretheren can't.  And it makes it impossible to 
fly long distances unless your flight is at 0 END. 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 27 18:22:08 1997 
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From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
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Subject: Re: Recoveries 
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> A fellow Champions GM and friend of mine just ran a strange idea past 
me.  He 
> has abolished the post segment 12 recovery in his combats.  He says "If you 
> want a recovery, you gotta take one.  I'm not handing you one on a silver 
> platter"  (or words to that effect).  He claims it greatly speeds up his 
> combats and does not change the feel of the game. 
 
I'm sure it would speed up combat, but at least with the groups I'm in it 
would change the feel of the game.  Like Hobbes 'State of Nature' combats 
woudl become nasty, brutish and short.  0 End powers and aids will be 
more common. 
 
>  
> I'm intrigued.  I'm not running a game right now and have had no opportunity 
> to give it a whirl.  Have any of you out there tried this or anything 
> similar?  And if so, what are your thoughts?  Heck, even if you haven't tried 
> it what are your thoughts? 
 
One thing the group I'm with does that helps.  WE start combat at the top 
of a turn, not on 12.  Starting on 12 gives everyone a chance to push an 
attack, then recover from their damage and end.  It's almost a wasted 
round.  By starting either on the first phase someone goes on (me)  
 or having a 'start of combat' phase then starting with the first phase, 
combat seems to go a little quicker.  Just my thoughts. 
 
TokyoMark 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 27 18:22:10 1997 
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Subject: In case anyone's interested..... 
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Hi, 
Look, I know that this is the hero mailer, but I'd thought I'd offer out an 
invitation anyway.  If anyone wishes to join an AD&D PBEM set in my own 
version of the Forgotten Realms please e-mail direct rather than to the list 
thankyou. 
lurkers are more than welcome. 
Thanx 
Chuff78002. 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 27 18:22:11 1997 
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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 06:15:55 -0400 (EDT) 
Message-ID: <970527061554_487036953@emout20.mail.aol.com> 
Subject: Uthden Troll...watch this space ! 
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Sorry about the delays folks, but things have gotten hectic over here and The 
Uthden Troll mtg/fh conversion has been put on the back burner for a while, 
however i'm almost ready to compile the data and it should be posted real 
soon ! 
 
WATCH THIS SPACE !!!!! 
 
Chuff78002. 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 27 18:22:12 1997 
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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 06:30:40 -0500 
From: "Joe Claffey Jr." <jrc@mail1.nai.net> 
Subject: Re: Recoveries 
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Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net> wrote, 
>to wit: Post 12's in our game were for Stun/End recoveries only. The way 
>his group had always run it, that if you get stunned in 12, your post 12 
>goes to recovering from being stunned, and thus doesn't help end/stun. 
>Does any of the list at large do this? 
 
 Yeah, that's how my friends and I do it. It doesn't seem to throw anything 
out of balance. 
 
 We also play that if you get stunned before your DEX count, you recover 
from being stunned that phase but lose your action. I don't know if that's 
standard or not. 
 
  Joe Claffey               | "In the end, everything is a gag." 
  jrc@ct1.nai.net           |               - Charlie Chaplin 
 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 27 18:22:13 1997 
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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 05:45:55 -0500 
From: Jon Knutson <waffyjon@execpc.com> 
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Subject: Re: Recoveries 
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Curtis Gibson wrote: 
>  
 
> A question of my own, while on the subject. When we had a player that 
> came in from another campaign (ie we didn't teach him) we found a 
> differance of style, with no real basis for doing things whichever way; 
> to wit: Post 12's in our game were for Stun/End recoveries only. The way 
> his group had always run it, that if you get stunned in 12, your post 12 
> goes to recovering from being stunned, and thus doesn't help end/stun. 
> Does any of the list at large do this? 
>  
> We don't have difficuties here because of the differance (we are adults 
> after all) but are curious as to how others do it. 
>  
In my old gaming group in Washington, we'd make it an option; anyone 
stunned on Phase 12 could either use their post-12 to recover STUN and 
END, or to recover from being stunned.  If they used it to recover 
stun/end, they'd still need to use their next phase to recover from 
being stunned.  It worked rather well for us. 
 
Jon 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 27 18:22:16 1997 
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From: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu> 
Reply-To: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu> 
Subject: subscription 
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		Sorry to take up bandwidth like this, but I sent in my 
re-subscription request over a week ago (to hero-request@omg.org) and 
haven't recieved any mail.  Does it usually take this long, or do I have 
the wrong address?   
 
Thanks for any help you can provide, 
 
	          William K. Bushway, wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu 
	          http://Mason.GMU.edu/~wbushway/index.html 
	   "I'm betting that I'm just abnormal enough to survive." 
		    -The Tick, The Tick Vs.The Breadmaster 
 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 27 18:22:17 1997 
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Subject: Re: real world martial art 
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At 03:21 PM 5/24/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
>>Pardon me, but there are no "kido" styles.  There are "do" styles and 
>>"jutsu" styles, corresponding to "way" and "art".  Aikijutsu is "the art of 
>>Aiki" and Aikido is "the way of Aiki".  The forms are similar, but "do" 
>>styles encompass a philosophy: they are a way of life, whereas "jutsu" 
>>forms tend to concentrate on the martial (combat) aspects: they are an art 
>>of combat. 
> 
>hapKIDO!! aiKIDO!!  And your literal interpretations were valid about 100 
years ago, and no longer. 
 
   Try hapkiDO and aikiDO (as per a very clear interpretation of the Korean 
language originals that Rat gave you). 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 27 18:22:18 1997 
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From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Invasion!?! 
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At 02:39 PM 5/24/97 -0500, Todd Hanson wrote: 
>> surrender, try to escape, or bring in some deus ex machina.  If the PCs are 
>> on the losing end of a combat that's getting boring besides, have a more 
>> powerful force show up to save their bacon (giving thanks for "keeping these 
>> guys busy until we got here," of course, just to make them feel useful). 
> 
> 
>This is one thing I would definately disagree with.  As a PC it would 
>leave me feeling like I had wasted my time if I had just fought for my 
>life against the aliens, only to have the big guns show up to bail me 
>out.  I would be left with the 'why bother' attitude. 
 
   That's a little different than what I was talking about.  The mechanics 
of what I was saying would be the same, except that afterward the big guns 
tell the PCs, "Boy, it's a good thing you guys were here to slow these guys 
down, or the whole world would've been toast!"  Admittedly, that's not as 
satisfying as stopping the Evil One on your own, but it still can give a 
sense of having made a vital contribution. 
 
>Instead, make the aliens seem unbeatable, but leave a method (or more 
>than one) where the PCs can discover a method to turn the tide of the 
>battle, kind along the lines of how in Independance Day they discovered 
>how to turn off the force fields of the alien ships (although I would go 
>for something a little more believable) 
> 
>Let the PCs discover some alien technology that enhances their own 
>powers - giving them additional firepower and defenses.  It doesnt have 
>to be much - adding 2 to 4 dice to a standard attack makes it a really 
>nasty attack.. add a 10/10 force field to their defenses and an alien 
>gun that would have stunned them before is no more than a nuisance. Let 
>the PCs feel like they defeated the aliens on their own by outsmarting 
>them.  Of course, make the technology run off of an alien power source 
>so you can get rid of it after this scenario...  
 
   This is good advice for overall plotting.  (Very good, in fact.)  I was 
addressing what can be done when an individual encounter bogs down. 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 27 18:31:55 1997 
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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:57:52 
From: John Turner <Avery1@flash.net> 
Subject: Re: Active Costs 
In-Reply-To: <338B3925.6258@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
References: <199705251140.HAA22297@mh004.infi.net> 
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At 12:42 PM 5/27/97 -0700, michael wrote: 
>John P. Weatherman wrote: 
>>  
>> Has anyone else noticed that while Hero suggests things 
>> like a 60 Active Point limit for attack powers of beginning 
>> characters, they also create their "standard" weapondry at 
>> closer to 100 Active Points? BLAH BLAH BLAH 
>> PAX 
> 
>why not just ignore the llimits?? i tend to think any active points limint 
is stupid . .  
>. what's the difference between 60 and 63? 
> 
 
that would be 3.  :P 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 27 18:41:53 1997 
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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:17:29 
From: John Turner <Avery1@flash.net> 
Subject: Re: Recoveries 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95q.970527024021.11996A-100000@iquest7> 
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At 04:44 AM 5/27/97 -0500, Tokyo Mark wrote: 
>One thing the group I'm with does that helps.  WE start combat at the top 
>of a turn, not on 12.  Starting on 12 gives everyone a chance to push an 
>attack, then recover from their damage and end.  It's almost a wasted 
>round.  By starting either on the first phase someone goes on (me)  
> or having a 'start of combat' phase then starting with the first phase, 
>combat seems to go a little quicker.  Just my thoughts. 
> 
>TokyoMark 
 
The group I play with start combat on 12, but we never let anyone push an 
attack at this time.  I really hate the pushing rules, they are too often 
abused.  We had one player that would try to push everytime he attacked, 
because he figured he could mathematically risk the END.  This made me 
institute a rule that I, as GM, have total control of when the players can 
push.  I can understand if a character wants to boost a power with xps and 
pushes the attack everytime for a while (while he is building up the xps to 
increase the points in the power).  The players have since learned that 
pushing is to be used only in extreme cases, not on every phase. 
 
 
 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 27 18:41:55 1997 
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From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Rengeration Question 
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At 12:20 AM 5/26/97 -0400, Kim Foster wrote: 
>Does anyone have a system for derterming the length of time need to regrow 
>limbs/organs for characters with rengeration? Any suggestions would be well 
>appreciated,thanks. 
 
   I don't think that Regeneration (or any other "enhancement Power") is 
able to regrow limbs, at least in the official rules. 
   In my own games, I allow "Can Regrow Limbs" as a +1/2 Advantage to 
[healing] Aid, Regeneration, and Transfer, and the REC Characteristic.  In 
this case, the amount of BODY needed to regrow a limb is equal to the amount 
that it took to cut it off in the first place. 
   And for the curious:  yes, if a character with Transfer that Can Regrow 
Limbs uses that Power on someone else, the other person does lose the limb, 
but only for the duration that the Transfer lasts (and none of the 
applications of this Advantage will work if the person with the Power never 
had the limb in question to begin with). 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 27 18:41:57 1997 
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X-Sender-Info: Dennis L. O'Brien                               Class: Internal 
               Consulting Systems Engineer 
               VM Systems Software 15863            (510) 675-5594 
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Subject: Pacificon moved? 
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The Dunfey Hotel told me today that they have been sold, and will be             
closed for renovations from 11 June to "sometime in November".  Pacificon        
will not be held at the Dunfey.                                                  
 
Has anyone heard anything on where Pacificon will be held, or if it will         
be held?                                                                         
 
                                             Dennis                              
 
A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend upon the              
support of Paul.  -- George Bernard Shaw                                         
 
From ???@??? Tue May 27 19:11:54 1997 
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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:10:53 -0500 
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Subject: Re: Recoveries 
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On 27 May 97 at 7:55, Curtis Gibson wrote: 
> A question of my own, while on the subject. When we had a player 
> that came in from another campaign (ie we didn't teach him) we found 
> a differance of style, with no real basis for doing things whichever 
> way; to wit: Post 12's in our game were for Stun/End recoveries 
> only. The way his group had always run it, that if you get stunned 
> in 12, your post 12 goes to recovering from being stunned, and thus 
> doesn't help end/stun. Does any of the list at large do this?  
 
My group has traditionally done it this way, more from ignorance than  
anything else. To our way of thinking, whether you recover from being  
stunned and then recover END/STUN or recover END/STUN then recover  
from being stunned, the end result is the same. 
Never seemed to unbalance anything. 
 
 
-- 
Al Everett                |  "Work is the curse of the drinking 
aeverett@worldnet.att.net |    classes"  - Rev William A Spooner 
 
From ???@??? Tue May 27 19:31:54 1997 
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Subject: Re: Recoveries 
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Doc sez... 
 
     Speeds up combat, eh?... Not surprised, characters must be getting 
exhausted  and knocked out sooner.  Does your friend mention if there's been 
an increase in the  number of characters that have tried to purchase reduced 
END on their STR and other powers? 
 
Doc  Tough 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 28 22:27:10 1997 
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Subject: Re: Invasion!?! 
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In a message dated 97-05-27 17:46:33 EDT, bob.greenwade@klock.com (Bob 
Greenwade) writes: 
 
> >This is one thing I would definately disagree with.  As a PC it would 
>  >leave me feeling like I had wasted my time if I had just fought for my 
>  >life against the aliens, only to have the big guns show up to bail me 
>  >out.  I would be left with the 'why bother' attitude. 
>   
>     That's a little different than what I was talking about.  The mechanics 
>  of what I was saying would be the same, except that afterward the big guns 
>  tell the PCs, "Boy, it's a good thing you guys were here to slow these 
guys 
>  down, or the whole world would've been toast!"  Admittedly, that's not as 
>  satisfying as stopping the Evil One on your own, but it still can give a 
>  sense of having made a vital contribution. 
 
I would think that the "Queen Bee" motif would be the best for player 
satisfaction.  Not to mention that fact that it's easier to fight smaller 
combats.  Let the NPCs defend the white house (perhaps with a little help 
from our heros).  It's the PCs job to infiltrate, get in there and destroy 
the queen mother, or the main computer, or whatever you can think of.  Or 
maybe even just talk 'em out of attacking...thats always fun.  Or maybe 
just...... 
 
You get my point.  As many Earthlings as you want can stave off individual 
attacks.  Even win battles against incredible odds.  But the PCs should be 
the ones to eventually save the world.  Unless you don't want the world 
saved, that could be fun too. 
 
Jay A 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 28 22:27:23 1997 
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From: David.Berge@october.com (David Berge) 
Date: 25 May 97 12:16:08 -0800 
Subject: How many d6 does a papae 
Message-ID: <355_9705280038@october.com> 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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Patrick Barden writes: 
 
h> How do you figure out how much damage a thrown object will do when it 
 > hits a person.  I have been told that you do 
 > damage based on extra strength.  This doesn't seem quite right.  By this 
 > standard a paper airplane could be quite deadly in the hands of a strong 
 > enough brick. 
 
Terminal velocity intrudes. An object's terminal velocity depends on its 
density and shape. The paper airplane simply can't go fast enough to do the 
full STR damage of a normal person. (More precisely, the airplane dece- 
lerates immediately when it leaves the thrower's hand.) 
 
In game terms, I would set an upper limit on the thrown damage that any 
object can generate. Anyone can probably do full damage with dense metal 
objects. Bricks will hit a limit with objects of density less than, oh, 3, 
and everyone else will be limited with objects less dense than water (1.0). 
 
I don't want to assign exact numbers, though; it's really not an important 
issue unless the density is very low. 
 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 28 22:27:24 1997 
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From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
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Subject: Re: How many d6 does a papae 
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> Terminal velocity intrudes. An object's terminal velocity depends on its 
> density and shape. The paper airplane simply can't go fast enough to do the 
> full STR damage of a normal person. (More precisely, the airplane dece- 
> lerates immediately when it leaves the thrower's hand.) 
>  
> In game terms, I would set an upper limit on the thrown damage that any 
> object can generate. Anyone can probably do full damage with dense metal 
> objects. Bricks will hit a limit with objects of density less than, oh, 3, 
> and everyone else will be limited with objects less dense than water (1.0). 
>  
> I don't want to assign exact numbers, though; it's really not an important 
> issue unless the density is very low. 
 
I believe there is a section in the book where it states that the damage 
of an object can't be more then def+body of the object.  It's been a long 
time since I bothered to look this up so it might simply apply to a past 
edition, but it seems a reasonable way to handle it. 
 
TokyoMark 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 28 22:27:26 1997 
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From: Patrick Barden <absga@elbertonga.com> 
Subject: Some effects I am working on 
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Have a couple of effects I am trying to duplicate. 
 
1)  I want to create directed explosions.  The attacks would be similar to 
an explosion except that the area of the effect would be either a line or a 
cone.  Would this be a modification of the explosion advantage or the area 
effect advantage? 
 
2.)  I want to duplicate the effect of a healer who absorbs the damage he 
heals.  What level of disadvantage would you give for a power that costs 
STUN instead of or in addition to END.  The character is a NPC so I am not 
worried about the long term effects of such a power. 
 
TIA, TTFN 
 
Patrick B. 
 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 28 22:27:27 1997 
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Patrick Barden wrote: 
>  
> Have a couple of effects I am trying to duplicate. 
>  
> 1)  I want to create directed explosions.  The attacks would be similar to 
> an explosion except that the area of the effect would be either a line or a 
> cone.  Would this be a modification of the explosion advantage or the area 
> effect advantage? 
 
I'd say 1/4 to 1/2 less advantage: Explosive Degrade. 
 
> 2.)  I want to duplicate the effect of a healer who absorbs the damage he 
> heals.  What level of disadvantage would you give for a power that costs 
> STUN instead of or in addition to END.  The character is a NPC so I am not 
> worried about the long term effects of such a power. 
 
Transfer with a -0 SFX limitation: Only works in reverse. 
 
-Eric 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 28 22:27:28 1997 
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Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:41:58 -0400 
From: badger@badgerden.com (Charles T. Badger) 
Subject: Re: Some effects I am working on 
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At 11:50 05/28/97 -0400, Patrick Barden wrote: 
>Have a couple of effects I am trying to duplicate. 
> 
>1)  I want to create directed explosions.  The attacks would be similar to 
>an explosion except that the area of the effect would be either a line or a 
>cone.  Would this be a modification of the explosion advantage or the area 
>effect advantage? 
 
since the radius advantage is +1 advantage and gives the same distance as a 
explosion with the explosion giving less damage to the outer area and also 
being a +1/2 advantage you could use those two facts to build the other area 
effect cone and line and use the same distance they would and divide the 
decrease over even  increments. I don't have my book with  me currently but 
the distance is more or less based on dc in the base power.  
 
>2.)  I want to duplicate the effect of a healer who absorbs the damage he 
>heals.  What level of disadvantage would you give for a power that costs 
>STUN instead of or in addition to END.  The character is a NPC so I am not 
>worried about the long term effects of such a power. 
 
I saw one where the aid with feedback is a -1 limitation that does the same 
amount of body to the user as he/she heals. Transfer would be similar to but 
instead of my transfer transfering points from you to me it would be me to 
you. that would be worth at least -1/2 limitation.  
----- 
Charles T. Badger 
President Badger Internet Services, Inc. 
http://www.badgerden.com 
vrml page 
http://vrml.badgerden.com 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 28 22:27:29 1997 
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Subject: Re: Some effects I am working on 
Date: Wed, 28 May 97 13:08:33 -0400 
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On 5/28/97 11:50 AM, Patrick Barden (absga@elbertonga.com) Said: 
 
>1)  I want to create directed explosions.  The attacks would be similar to 
>an explosion except that the area of the effect would be either a line or a 
>cone.  Would this be a modification of the explosion advantage or the area 
>effect advantage? 
> 
I would probably do this as : 
  Energy Blast, AE:(Line or Cone), Reduced by Range 
 
>2.)  I want to duplicate the effect of a healer who absorbs the damage he 
>heals.  What level of disadvantage would you give for a power that costs 
>STUN instead of or in addition to END.  The character is a NPC so I am not 
>worried about the long term effects of such a power. 
 
I think this is spelled out in the HSR under Aid.... 
 
  .oooO        | 
  (   ) Oooo.  | David A. Fair 
   \ (  (   )  | SDS International 
    \_)  ) /   | dfair@sdslink.com 
        (_/    | 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 28 22:27:30 1997 
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Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:07:14 -0700 
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Patrick Barden wrote: 
>  
> Have a couple of effects I am trying to duplicate. 
>  
> 1)  I want to create directed explosions.  The attacks would be similar to 
> an explosion except that the area of the effect would be either a line or a 
> cone.  Would this be a modification of the explosion advantage or the area 
> effect advantage? 
 
Work it like the area effect advantages.  The cone would act just like 
the radius effect in that -1d6 per 1".  The line I might automatically 
allow -1d6 per 2" since it's a lot easier to dive out of. 
I think the cone advantage was either Champs II or Champs 3. 
 
>  
> 2.)  I want to duplicate the effect of a healer who absorbs the damage he 
> heals.  What level of disadvantage would you give for a power that costs 
> STUN instead of or in addition to END.  The character is a NPC so I am not 
> worried about the long term effects of such a power. 
 
Side effect that always goes off. Without my books I couldn't say the 
the costs. probably -1. -2 if he doesn't have ready access to personal 
healing. 
 
-Mark 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 28 22:27:31 1997 
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Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 14:06:51 -0700 (PDT) 
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Subject: Re: Some effects I am working on 
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At 11:50 AM 5/28/97 -0400, Patrick Barden wrote: 
>Have a couple of effects I am trying to duplicate. 
> 
>1)  I want to create directed explosions.  The attacks would be similar to 
>an explosion except that the area of the effect would be either a line or a 
>cone.  Would this be a modification of the explosion advantage or the area 
>effect advantage? 
 
   Personally, for the cone effect, I would allow a "cone explosion," which 
only operates in a 60-degree cone but which loses damage at -1 DC/2", for 
the same +1/2 Advantage one already gets for Explosion.  Alternately, you 
could just use a regular Explosion, with a -1 Limitation (on the Advantage 
only) for a cone shape. 
   As for the line, I'd just use Area Effect: Line with a -1 Limitation (on 
the Advantage only) for the degradation. 
 
>2.)  I want to duplicate the effect of a healer who absorbs the damage he 
>heals.  What level of disadvantage would you give for a power that costs 
>STUN instead of or in addition to END.  The character is a NPC so I am not 
>worried about the long term effects of such a power. 
 
   Rather than do it this way ("Costs STUN as well as END"), give it a -1 
"Side Effects" Limitation (-1/2 if you use the 10 points/1d6 variant on 
Aid).  This ends up doing the same level of damage to the user as he heals. 
You can just rule by GM fiat that the damage the NPC takes is always 
identical to the amount he heals. 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 28 22:27:33 1997 
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From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
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Subject: Re: Active Costs 
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On Tue, 27 May 1997, HAPPYELF!!!! wrote: 
 
> > Last time I looked, it was 3. :-) I've always thought of the 'active point 
> > limit' as more of a guideline. Especially with very heavily advantaged 
> > powers, where the difference between 3D6 of effect and 4D6 of effect can 
> > mean 15-20 points. So you either allow a 70 point power or force the PC to 
> > take a 50 point power - heck, give him the 70 pointer. 'Raw' powers, 
> > however, should adhere more closely to the AP limit. 
>  
> i agree! however, i would still like to abolish the whole idea, or put it 
> all in gm-campagn control . . . 
 
How do you mean? It's already entirely a GM campaign-control issue. 
 
 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 28 22:27:34 1997 
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From: R Jacobs <rjacobs@radiks.net> 
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:51:14 -0500 
Subject: Determining Limitations 
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Hello All, 
 
Anybody have any good suggestions on how to determine the value of 
non-standard limitations?  I'm looking for a way to remove some of the 
subjectivity from the process (I realize that there is no way to make it 
totally objective, but some guidance would be beneficial). 
 
Rob 
 
From ???@??? Wed May 28 22:27:35 1997 
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Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:08:17 -0500 
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org> 
Message-Id: <199705282308.SAA09921@id.sedl.org> 
Subject: House Rule suggestion for Side Effects 
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A suggestion: Side Effects that always happen (as opposed to those that 
only happen on unsuccessful activation rolls) should not have to take 
a minimum of 30/60 active points.  It's limiting enough that they happen 
_every_ time the character activates the power. 
 
So, for example, the "Empathic Healing" mentioned earlier could simply 
be Aid/Healing with Side Effects: Damage (not Drain) equal to the Aid, 
for a limitation bonus of -1.  Since generic Damage (EB, whatever) is 
5 pts/d6, just like Aid, the total Active Points of Side Effect is 
exactly equal to the total Active Points of the Aid.  Requiring that 
the character take 12d6 damage for 3d6 of Aid would just be lame. 
 
  Donald 
 
From ???@??? Thu May 29 20:35:29 1997 
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Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 07:58:08 -0700 
From: Tim Statler <tstatler@igateway.net> 
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Subject: Re: Some effects I am working on 
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Charles T. Badger wrote: 
>  
> At 11:50 05/28/97 -0400, Patrick Barden wrote: 
> >Have a couple of effects I am trying to duplicate. 
> > 
> >1)  I want to create directed explosions.  The attacks would be similar to 
> >an explosion except that the area of the effect would be either a line or a 
> >cone.  
>  
> since the radius advantage is +1 advantage and gives the same distance as a 
> explosion with the explosion giving less damage to the outer area and also 
> being a +1/2 advantage you could use those two facts to build the other area 
> effect cone and line and use the same distance they would and divide the 
> decrease over even  increments. 
 
A good use of the AE:Explosive Cone (+1/2) advantage is in modelling a 
shotgun blast.  
 
Tim Statler 
 
 
From ???@??? Thu May 29 20:35:30 1997 
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Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:45:02 +1000 
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Invasion!?! 
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>I would think that the "Queen Bee" motif would be the best for player 
>satisfaction.  Not to mention that fact that it's easier to fight smaller 
>combats.  Let the NPCs defend the white house (perhaps with a little help 
>from our heros).  It's the PCs job to infiltrate, get in there and destroy 
>the queen mother, or the main computer, or whatever you can think of.  Or 
>maybe even just talk 'em out of attacking...thats always fun.  Or maybe 
>just...... 
> 
>You get my point.  As many Earthlings as you want can stave off individual 
>attacks.  Even win battles against incredible odds.  But the PCs should be 
>the ones to eventually save the world.  Unless you don't want the world 
>saved, that could be fun too. 
> 
>Jay A 
> 
> 
how about "the heros are one of many who save the world?" or 
 
"the heros' strategist works dilligently with Dr Destroyer to formulate a  
defense plan, and all the world pulls it off?" or 
 
"during peace talks the heros give the aliens east hoboken, not mentioning  
Mechanon just took the joint over"   or  
 
"the world is saved by another alien race, who then tries to plunge the  
world into debt-slavery?"  or 
 
"the aliens are really running like crazy from something else, and move on as soon  
as the earth orbits out of their jetstream" or 
 
"the heros side with the aliens, and they turn out to be really wimpy" or 
 
"the battle rages on indefinitley, with the aliens holding everything outside 
of Mars, with teams of space-borne heros doing guerilla warfare within the asteroid belt" 
 
 
 
we can do WAY better than the old 'shoot de generator vent and it all go boom' 
, guys ..  . 
 
 
From ???@??? Thu May 29 20:35:32 1997 
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Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:53:05 +1000 
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Determining Limitations 
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X-UID: 3 
 
here's a very small guide: 
 
-1/4 anything not involved directly in the campaign, like an effect that you make up  
and the gm says "yeah, shure, whatever . ." 
 
-1/2 Something really involved with the character: like kryptonite or silver, something the character will see a lot of, within the plot of the setting(it not just a random thingie) 
 
 
 
At 04:51 PM 5/28/97 -0500, you wrote: 
> 
> 
>Hello All, 
> 
>Anybody have any good suggestions on how to determine the value of 
>non-standard limitations?  I'm looking for a way to remove some of the 
>subjectivity from the process (I realize that there is no way to make it 
>totally objective, but some guidance would be beneficial). 
> 
>Rob 
> 
> 
 
From ???@??? Thu May 29 20:35:49 1997 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Determining Limitations 
References: <338CA8D2.36DE@radiks.net> 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 29 May 1997 13:14:36 -0400 
In-Reply-To: R Jacobs's message of Wed, 28 May 1997 16:51:14 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "RJ" == R Jacobs <rjacobs@radiks.net> writes: 
 
RJ> Anybody have any good suggestions on how to determine the value of 
RJ> non-standard limitations? 
 
Just as a baseline I look at the probabilities for Activation Roll success. 
A limitation that is restrictive about half the time (11-) is worth a -1, 
working up to a -2 for a limitation that is restrictive almost always (8-) 
and down to -1/4 for a limitation that is infrequently restrictive (15-). 
I then make a comparison between the new limitation and any existing but 
similar limitations, and adjust the bonus to fit within the existing 
structure. 
 
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
From ???@??? Thu May 29 20:35:51 1997 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: House Rule suggestion for Side Effects 
References: <199705282308.SAA09921@id.sedl.org> 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Date: 29 May 1997 13:20:27 -0400 
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>>>>> "DT" == Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org> writes: 
 
DT> A suggestion: Side Effects that always happen (as opposed to those that 
DT> only happen on unsuccessful activation rolls) should not have to take a 
DT> minimum of 30/60 active points.  It's limiting enough that they happen 
DT> _every_ time the character activates the power. 
 
Yeah, well, Side Effects is slightly broken in that it is less of a 
disadvantage to the character if the power has an Activation roll on it. 
So I figure that the Side Effects bonus is worth double (give or take) if 
there is no Activation roll on the power.  But that's just me. :) 
 
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From ???@??? Thu May 29 20:35:52 1997 
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Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 15:22:48 -0400 (EDT) 
Message-ID: <970529152246_-1498146900@emout06.mail.aol.com> 
Subject: Re: Invasion!?! 
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In a message dated 97-05-29 05:37:25 EDT, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
(happyelf!) writes: 
 
> how about "the heros are one of many who save the world?" or 
>   
>  "the heros' strategist works dilligently with Dr Destroyer to formulate a  
>  defense plan, and all the world pulls it off?" or 
>   
>  "during peace talks the heros give the aliens east hoboken, not mentioning 
 
>  Mechanon just took the joint over"   or  
>   
>  "the world is saved by another alien race, who then tries to plunge the  
>  world into debt-slavery?"  or 
>   
>  "the aliens are really running like crazy from something else, and move on 
 
> as soon  
>  as the earth orbits out of their jetstream" or 
>   
>  "the heros side with the aliens, and they turn out to be really wimpy" or 
>   
>  "the battle rages on indefinitley, with the aliens holding everything  
> outside 
>  of Mars, with teams of space-borne heros doing guerilla warfare within the 
 
> asteroid belt" 
>   
>   
>   
>  we can do WAY better than the old 'shoot de generator vent and it all go  
> boom' 
>  , guys ..  . 
 
All these ideas are wonderfull.  And if your players wouldn't feel cheated 
not being the ones who dealt the final blow then you should just run with it. 
 I backed the "queen bee" story line on the assumption that the invaders were 
bad guys who needed to be stopped.  If if turns out they *are* wimps or 
fleeing a greater terror (I like the fleeing especially) then of course the 
scene is different.  But if they are fleeing to earth then we have the 
pursuers to worry about. 
 
My players would love to team up  with Dr. Destroyer to thwart a global 
threat.  They would eat it up.  But if the good (?) Doctor got to be the one 
who finally finnished off the bad guys, I could not appologize enough to my 
players.   
 
It is also very possible that you want the invasion to change the face of 
your campaing.  Maybe they actualy are friendly and misunderstood.  Or maybe 
they do take control of Hoboken. 
 
There are an infinate number of ways to play it.  But if you want the 
invasion to be just one story arc out of many without altering too much the 
face of your world, then the invaders must be dealt with somehow, and you 
must consider the personality of your players and their team.  Would they 
mind merely fighting a few battles or holding up the rear while some other 
NPC heros took the glory? 
 
And of course the "Queen Bee" could be anything.  I did not mean to imply 
that the good guys burst in with guns (and EBs) blazing.  What I meant was 
that there should be one final and culminating Event that should make 
everything all better.  And that the PC heros should be behind (no...not 
behind...in front of) that Event. 
 
I should have been more exacting...less flippant in my original post. 
 
Jay A 
 
From ???@??? Thu May 29 20:35:53 1997 
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References: Donald Tsang's message of Wed, 28 May 1997 18:08:17 -0500 
 <199705282308.SAA09921@id.sedl.org> 
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Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:22:30 -0500 
From: "Joe Claffey Jr." <jrc@mail1.nai.net> 
Subject: Re: House Rule suggestion for Side Effects 
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Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> wrote, 
>>>>>> "DT" == Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org> writes: 
> 
>DT> A suggestion: Side Effects that always happen (as opposed to those that 
>DT> only happen on unsuccessful activation rolls) should not have to take a 
>DT> minimum of 30/60 active points.  It's limiting enough that they happen 
>DT> _every_ time the character activates the power. 
> 
>Yeah, well, Side Effects is slightly broken in that it is less of a 
>disadvantage to the character if the power has an Activation roll on it. 
>So I figure that the Side Effects bonus is worth double (give or take) if 
>there is no Activation roll on the power.  But that's just me. :) 
 
 One variation that I've been toying with is to require any Side Effect 
that is an attack power (EB, KA, etc) to include the NND and Does BODY 
advantages (+2 total). This makes Side Effects unpleasant, but not fatal 
(how many characters can take a 12d6 EB that bypasses their defenses?) 
 
  Joe Claffey               | "In the end, everything is a gag." 
  jrc@ct1.nai.net           |               - Charlie Chaplin 
 
 
From ???@??? Thu May 29 21:15:35 1997 
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
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Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:10:43 -0500 (CDT) 
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Subject: Wrack power 
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The target of this power suffers from agonizing pain whenever he or she 
exerts himself (i.e. spends endurance) The damage is proportional to the 
degree of exertion.   How can this be bought ? 
 
I had thought about a continuous noncontrolled NND with the defense being 
not spending endurance, and the limitation that the damage is proportional 
to the amount of endurance the target spends.  Is this 'legal' ? 
Is there a more elegant way to do this ? 
 
(I originally came up with this idea when trying to make characters based 
on the different alien races in the game Cosmic Encounter.  Anybody else 
done this ? )  
 
Curt Hicks 
 
From ???@??? Thu May 29 21:35:34 1997 
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Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:29:25 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Captain Trips 
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970529192813.6159A-100000@access2.digex.net> 
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X-UIDL: 039454ce3d4b44fb693e4ff6e7764fba 
 
(Brace yourselves) 
 
CAPTAIN TRIPS 
(Dr. Marcus Aurelius Meadows / Mark Meadows) 
 
Designers Notes: 
Welcome to one of the most powerful aces in the Wildcards universe! 
Captain Trips (named after the late Jerry Garcia), has the ability to 
transform himself into a number of different forms, or 'friends'.  Each of 
these alternate personalities are potent aces in their own right, although 
that doesn't mean they will agree with what ever it is the good Captain is 
involved in. 
 
Mark Meadows is tall and very thin, standing 6'2" and weighing about 160 
lbs.  He has shoulder length hair and a goatee.  He is exceedingly 
intelligent and is probably the most brilliant biochemist in the world. 
He is also quite the burned-out hippie.  As Captain Trips, Mark wears (in 
effect) a purple and white Uncle Sam suit, complete with top hat and a 
flower in the button hole.  Each of his 'friends' however, looks very 
different.  It should be noted that Mark has assumed two other forms aside 
from the five mentioned here.  One is the Radical, a youthful 
blonde-haired man clad only in jeans and wearing a peace medallion.  The 
other was called Monster, stood something like 60' tall and was strong 
enough to toss around T-72 tanks (and reminded me greatly of the 
Overfiend...). 
 
Note: Mark is built on a 25 point base, and is presumed to be a 'normal', 
hence the point total for his INT score. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		10		0 
Dex		9		-3 
Con		11		2 
Body		10		0 
Int		28		26 
Ego		14		8 
Pre		10		0 
Com		10		0 
PD		3		1 
ED		2		0 
Spd		2		1 
Rec		4		0 
End		22		0 
Stun		21		0 
Char Total			35 
Power Total			29 
Total Cost			64 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
3	KS: 'Counter Culture' Rock 15- 
2	KS: Recreational Drugs 11- 
3	PS: Biochemist (INT) 15- 
1	PS: Shop Owner 8- 
3	SC: Biochemsitry 16- 
1	SC: Biology 11- 
3	SC: Chemistry 16- 
2	SC: Mathmatics 15- 
2	SC: Organic Chemistry 15- 
2	SC: Pharacology 15- 
3	Streetwise 11- 
1	Trading 8- 
3	Scientist  
 
Disadvantages 
25	Base 
5	DF: 'Hippie' dress and mannerisms 
15	DNPC: Sprout (incomp) 8- 
10	Psych: Generally lacking in common sense 
10	Psych: Shy, tries to avoid overt publicity 
 
(Captain Trips created by Victor Milan, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Thu May 29 21:35:44 1997 
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Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:33:18 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
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        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: Char: CT (Cosmic Traveler) 
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970529193248.6159D-100000@access2.digex.net> 
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COSMIC TRAVELER 
(Damon Strange) 
 
Designers Notes: 
Cosmic Traveler stand 5'10" tall and weighs 145 lbs.  His costume consists 
of a tight-fighting body suit and a black hooded cloak that is lined with 
a glowing starfield.  Traveler's actual appearence is of a stoop 
shouldered man with a thin chest, arms and legs and a slight pot belly. 
Among his ace powers is the ability to change his shape, so he normally 
looks much more imposing.  Traveler has a number of powers, including 
Desoldification, Invisibility, Flight and a powerful will... He's also a 
total coward, and is prone to flee from any threatening situation. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		9		-1 
Dex		23		39 
Con		20		20 
Body		13		6 
Int		26		16 
Ego		40		60 
Pre		10		0 
Com		8		-1 
PD		4		2 
ED		4		0 
Spd		4		7 
Rec		6		0 
End		40		0 
Stun		28		0 
Char Total			148 
Power Total			229 
Total Cost			377 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
40	Desoldification, END 4 
40	Invisibility: Sight Group, No Fringe, 0 END, Linked to Desolid 
	(-1/2) 
13	Life Support: Self-contained breathing, Immune to Vaccum 
30	15" Flight, END 3 
2	Running: +1" (7" total) 
45	Shapeshift - anything of same mass, 0 END 
7	+10 PRE, Linked to Shapeshift 
3	+10 COM, Linked to Shapeshift 
9	Enhanced Perception: +3 
 
13	Acting 16- 
3	Lockpicking 14- 
13	Mimicry 16- 
5	Shadowing 12- 
3	Sleight of Hand 14- 
3	Stealth 14- 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
25	Psych: Total Coward 
15	Psych: Arrogant, egotistical snob 
10	Psych: Terrified of bugs and other crawly things 
20	Vuln: 2 x Effect from Fear-based PRE attacks 
207	Experience 
 
(Cosmic Traveler created by Victor Milan, character sheet created by 
Michael Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Thu May 29 21:35:46 1997 
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Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:34:45 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: CT (Jumping Jack Flash) 
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970529193339.6159E-100000@access2.digex.net> 
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JUMPING JACK FLASH 
(John Jacob Flash) 
 
Designers Notes: 
Flash is a small man, standing 5'6" and weighing 135 lbs.  He has red 
hair, a handsome face and wears an orange bodysuit, open down to the 
navel, trimmed in red and yellow flames.  His ace powers include the 
ability create and control fire.  He can fire bolts of flame, create a 
flaming rope (that will not burn), fly and extinguish fires.  At times, 
he's been known to create and play flaming guitars. 
 
Note: JJ Flash totals 492 points and thus is the most expensive of the 
Captain's assorted forms.  This means that he's been saddled with the cost 
of the Multiform power.  Aquarius is considered the 'second' from is has a 
point cost of (total points/5).  All other forms have a point cost of 
(total/10). 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		20		10 
Dex		31		63 
Con		23		23 
Body		12		4 
Int		18		8 
Ego		18		16 
Pre		20		10 
Com		20		5 
PD		24		20 
ED		30		25 
Spd		5		9 
Rec		10		2 
End		60		7 
Stun		34		0 
Char Total			205 
Power Total			510 
Total Cost			715 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
30	EC: Pyrokinesis 
30	12d6 EB, END 6 
30	6d6 EB, AoE: Line (24"), END 6 
37	3d6 RKA, AP, END 7 
24	30 STR TK, 0 END, Affects all parts of target (-1/4) 
15	Damage Reduction: 3/4 Energy, Resistant, Vs fire only (-1) 
13	10d6 Dispell vs RKA, AoE: Radius (3"), 0 END, No Range, Vs natural 
	fires only (-2) 
30	30" Flight (60" noncombat), END 6 
 
15	6d6 Absorbtion vs Energy, to END, Fire attacks only (-1) 
27	Full Damage Resistance 
4	Running: +2" (8" total) 
 
3	Conversation 13- 
3	KS: Guitar 13- 
3	KS: Law 13- 
3	PS: Lawyer (INT) 13- 
3	PS: Play Guitar (DEX) 15- 
3	Seduction 13- 
6	CSL: +2 with Pyrokinesis EC 
8	CSL: +4 with Flight 
 
223	Multiform:JCaptain Trips (64 points), Cosmic Traveler (377 points) 
	Starshine (378 points), Moonchild (450 points), Aquarius (478 
	points) IIF: Little glass bottles (-1/4), Gestures (must open 
	bottle and swallow) (-1/4) 5 continuous charges of 1 Hour each 
	(+1/2) 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
15	Psych: Hates bullies and cruelty 
15	Psych: Impulsive and Reckless 
15	Psych: Womanizer 
10	Vuln: 1 1/2 x Body from Water Attacks 
20	Vuln: 2 x Stun from Water Attacks 
540	Experience 
 
(Jumping Jack Flash created by Victor Milan, character sheet created by 
Michael Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Thu May 29 21:36:06 1997 
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Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:36:21 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: CT (Moonchild) 
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970529193500.6159F-100000@access2.digex.net> 
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(my favorite of the Captian's friends) 
 
MOONCHILD 
(Isis Moon) 
 
Designers Notes: 
Moonchild is a tall, exotic looking Asian beauty.  Standing 5'7", and 
weigh 120, she is graceful, with a well-muscled form and long black hair. 
She wears a skintight black costume, complete with gloves and boots.  On 
her chest is black and white yin-yang symbol.  A similarly patterned 
half-mask covers her face.  A master martial artist, Moonchild is stronger 
than a normal human and *much* faster.  She is also able to make the dark 
her home, and can become invisible, as well as teleport amid the shadows. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		23		13 
Dex		36		78 
Con		20		20 
Body		14		8 
Int		18		8 
Ego		21		22 
Pre		20		10 
Com		22		6 
PD		20		15 
ED		10		6 
Spd		7		24 
Rec		10		2 
End		36		0 
Stun		36		0 
Char Total			212 
Power Total			238 
Total Cost			450 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
	MA: Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido 
4	Arm Sweep Block  +2 OCV  +2 DCV  Block, Abort 
5	Crescent Kick Block  +1 OCV  +3 DCV  Block, Abort 
4	Disarm  -1 OCV  +1 DCV  33 STR Disarm 
4	Dodge  +0 OCV  +5 DCV  Dodge vs All, Abort 
4	Escape  +0 OCV  +0 DCV  38 STR vs Grabs 
5	Flying Side Kick  +1 OCV  -2 DCV  8 1/2d6 Strike 
4	Front Kick  +01 OCV  +2 DCV  6 1/2d6 Strike 
3	Joint Lock  +0 OCV  -1 DCV  Grab One Limbs; 33 STR to Hold  
4	Punch / Elbow Strike  +2 OCV  +0 DCV  6 1/2d6 Strike 
5	Side / Roundhouse Kick  -2 OCV  +1 DCV  8 1/2d6 Strike 
3	Sweep  +2 OCV  -1 DCV  5 1/2d6 Strike; Target Falls 
3	Takedown  +1 OCV  +1 DCV  4 1/2d6 Strike; Target Falls 
3	Throw  +0 OCV  +1 DCV  4 1/2d6 Strike; Target Falls 
 
7	Damage Reduction: 1/4 Physical, vs Stun Only (-1/2) 
8	Damage Resistance: 10 PD/5 ED 
40	Invisibility: Sight Group, No Fringe, 0 END, Requires shadows or  
	darkness (-1/2) 
11	Mental Defense: 15 DEF 
10	Clinging: 23 STR 
8	Running: +4" (10" total), END 2 
15	Invisible Power Effects: Hearing, 0 END, on 10" Running 
13	Teleport: 10", Requires shadows or darkness (-1/2), END 2 
5	UV Vision 
6	1/2 END, STR 
 
3	Acrobatics 16- 
3	Breakfall 16- 
5	Combat Sense 14- 
10	Defense Maneuver (full) 
3	KS: Hapkido 13- 
3	KS: Tae Kwon Do 13- 
3	KS: Zen Philosophy 13- 
9	Shadowing 14- 
3	Stealth 16- 
13	Lang: English (3), French (3), Japanese (1 - literacy only), 
	Korean (0), Mandarin Chinese (3), Portuguese (3) 
3	Linguist 
6	CSL: +2 with Martial Arts 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
10	DF: Exotic beauty 
20	Psych: Cannot kill; cannot even cause serious harm to a human 
being 
15	Psych: Fatalistic and without fear 
10	Psych: Hates the South Korean governtment 
295	Experience 
 
(Moonchild created by Victor Milan, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Thu May 29 21:36:08 1997 
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Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:31:30 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: CT (Aquarius) 
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970529193049.6159B-100000@access2.digex.net> 
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(How's this for a headache... a Multiform form that has Multiform...) 
 
AQUARIUS 
(Cetus Dauphin - human from) 
 
Designers Notes: 
Aquarius is a huge man, standing 6' tall and weighing 280 lbs.  He has 
grayish skin and is bald.  His primary power is the ability to turn into a 
20' long dolphin.  Aquarius is a somewhat unpleasant fellow, who doesn't 
like *any*Jland dwellers and has a particular distaste for people from 
whaling nations.  He can be talking into giving aid, but it will be only 
grudgingly. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		20		10 
Dex		9		-3 
Con		18		16 
Body		14		8 
Int		18		8 
Ego		14		8 
Pre		15		5 
Com		8		-1 
PD		8		4 
ED		5		1 
Spd		3		11 
Rec		8		0 
End		36		0 
Stun		33		0 
Char Total			67 
Power Total			33 
Total Cost			100 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
3	Swimming: +3" (5" total) 
5	Discriminatory Taste 
 
4	KS: Scuba 14- 
5	Navigation 14- 
6	SC: Marine Biology 16- 
1	TF: Scuba 
3	Lang: English (native), French 
6	CSL: +2 with Block, Dodge, Punch 
 
Disadvantages 
25	Base 
25	Berserk:JOcean Mammals harmed (14-/8-) 
5	Dependence: Water, 2d6/5 Minutes 
5	DF:JGrey skinned man 
10	Phys: No sense of smell 
20	Psych: Protective of aquatic mammals 
10	Psych: Hates land dwellers (esp Japanese, Norwegians and Soviets) 
 
(Aquarius created by Victor Milan, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Thu May 29 21:36:19 1997 
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Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:32:38 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: CT (Aquarius - dolphin) 
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970529193140.6159C-100000@access2.digex.net> 
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AQUARIUS 
(Cetus Dauphin - dolphin from) 
 
Designers Notes: 
This is Aquarius dolphin form. The size of an Orca (Killer Whale), in this 
form Aquarius can out swim anything else in the ocean.  His skin is 
virtually immune to bullets and harpoons, and he can sink a ship with his 
rostrum.  On top of that, Aquarius can call upon and control other 
ocean-going mammals, especially other whales. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		40		0 
Dex		18		24 
Con		30		40 
Body		35		38 
Int		18		8 
Ego		14		8 
Pre		20		10 
Com		10		0 
PD		8		6 
ED		8		2 
Spd		4		12 
Rec		8		0 
End		60		0 
Stun		55		0 
Char Total			148 
Power Total			330 
Total Cost			478 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
40	Growth:J6 Levels, 0 END, Persistant, Always On 
	+30 STR, +6 Body, +6 Stun, -6" KB, -3 DCV, +3 PER, 20' long, 
	12,800 lbs 
 
15	EC: Ocean Mammal (cetacean) control, Ocean Mammals only (-2) 
15	Mind Control:J12d6, 0 END 
15	Mind Scanning: 12d6, 0 END 
 
24	2d6 HKA, Reduced Penetration - bite, 3 END 
36	+8d6 HA, 0 END, Move Through attacks only (-1) 
60	Armor; +20 PD/ED 
10	+20 PD, only when performing a Move Through (-1) 
3	Life Support: High Pressure 
10	Life Support: No Need to Breath, 1 Recoverable Charge of 1 Hour 
-12"	-6" Running 
27	Swimming: +20" (22" total, 36" noncombat, 60 mph), 1/2 END, END 2 
15	Active Sonar 
9	Enhanced Perception +3 
6	Enhanced Percpetion: Taste +3 
22	Mind Link: Ocean Mammals (+5), Any distance (+5), 0 END 
20	Multiform: Cetus Dauphin, 100 Point total 
15	Universal Translator:J18-, Ocean Mammals only (-1) 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
5	Dependence: Water, 2d6/5 Minutes 
15	DF: Huge, 20' long dolphin 
15	Phys: No Fine Manipulaiton 
10	Phys: No Sense of Smell 
20	Psych: Protective of aquatic mammals 
10	Psych: Hates land dwellers (esp Japanese, Norwegians and Soviets) 
10	Vuln: Water-borne posions and gases:Jx2 Body 
 
 
(Aquarius created by Victor Milan, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Thu May 29 21:36:31 1997 
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Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:37:05 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: CT (Starshine) 
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970529193631.6159G-100000@access2.digex.net> 
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STARSHINE 
(Justin Bright) 
 
Designers Notes: 
Starshine is a huge imposing figure, well muscled, who stands 6'4" and 
weighs 234 lbs.  He has a solid, square jaw, green eyes and wavy, 
yellow-blond hair.  His costume consists of a yellow bodystocking with an 
orange sunburst on the chest, and green trunks, gloves and folded over 
boots.  His powers are the manipulation of light itself, allowing him to 
generate bolts of pure light energy, create a protective field, exist in 
space and transform himself into a beam of light.  He is very arrogant, 
and opinionated and will quite gladly lecture *anyone* on the evils of 
*Everything*. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		40		30 
Dex		18		24 
Con		23		26 
Body		13		6 
Int		18		8 
Ego		18		16 
Pre		23		13 
Com		24		7 
PD		8		0 
ED		8		3 
Spd		5		22 
Rec		14		2 
End		46		0 
Stun		45		0 
Char Total			157 
Power Total			221 
Total Cost			378 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
30	EC: Light Control 
30	12d6 EB, END 6 
32	25 DEF Force Field, 1/2 END, END 3 
24	Teleport: 30", Line of sight targets only and not through smoke, 
	tinted glass etc (-1/4), END 6 
24	Teleport: 5", x2048 noncombat (10240"), Line of sight targets only 
	and not through smoke, tinted glass etc (-1/4), END 1 
 
20	8d6 Absorbtion vs Energy, to END, Visible light attacks only (-1) 
30	Full Life Support 
10	FTL: 1 light year a year 
4	KS: Literature 
1	KS: Poetry 8- 
3	Oratory 14- 
3	Persuasion 14- 
4	CSL: +2 OCV with EB 
6	CSL: +2 with Block, Haymaker, Punch 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
10	DF: Large, muscular Adonis figure 
15	Psych: Dislike of 'bad elements' 
20	Psych: Must pontificate before any confrontation 
15	Psych: Stubborn and *very* opinionated 
218	Experience 
 
(Starshine created by Victor Milan, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Thu May 29 22:05:24 1997 
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Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:05:30 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Wrack power 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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Curt Hicks writes: 
>  
>  
> The target of this power suffers from agonizing pain whenever he or she 
> exerts himself (i.e. spends endurance) The damage is proportional to the 
> degree of exertion.   How can this be bought ? 
 
Reduce target's endurance to zero (via drain or suppress).  Target now has to 
burn stun to spend endurance. 
>  
> I had thought about a continuous noncontrolled NND with the defense being 
> not spending endurance, and the limitation that the damage is proportional 
> to the amount of endurance the target spends.  Is this 'legal' ? 
As a rule, no (definition of legal defense for NND is somewhat unclear). 
 
From ???@??? Thu May 29 22:15:46 1997 
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Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 20:22:53 -0400 
From: Dave Thompson <ezadd@bconnex.net> 
Organization: Blackeagle/Blackeagle Canada 
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Subject: Re: Invasion!?! 
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HoosierJA@aol.com wrote: 
>  
> My players would love to team up  with Dr. Destroyer to thwart a global 
> threat.  They would eat it up.  But if the good (?) Doctor got to be the one 
> who finally finnished off the bad guys, I could not appologize enough to my 
> players. 
 
	Ah..but what if the Doctor did finish the big baddie off and left the 
heroes without pummelling their remains into the turf? How would they 
feel next time they had to go off and try to stop him?? Just a thought 
 
Dave 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 31 22:47:59 1997 
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Subject: Re: House Rule suggestion for Side Effects 
Date: Thu, 29 May 97 22:09:55 -0500 
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From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
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Joe Claffey Jr. 
 
>Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> wrote, 
>>>>> "DT" == Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org> writes: 
>> 
>>DT> A suggestion: Side Effects that always happen (as opposed to those that 
>>DT> only happen on unsuccessful activation rolls) should not have to take a 
>>DT> minimum of 30/60 active points.  It's limiting enough that they happen 
>>DT> _every_ time the character activates the power. 
>> 
>>Yeah, well, Side Effects is slightly broken in that it is less of a 
>>disadvantage to the character if the power has an Activation roll on it. 
>>So I figure that the Side Effects bonus is worth double (give or take) if 
>>there is no Activation roll on the power.  But that's just me. :) 
> 
> One variation that I've been toying with is to require any Side Effect 
>that is an attack power (EB, KA, etc) to include the NND and Does BODY 
>advantages (+2 total). This makes Side Effects unpleasant, but not fatal 
>(how many characters can take a 12d6 EB that bypasses their defenses?) 
 
Does Body on a NND should be a +2 advantage for a total of +3 total.  I'm 
basing that on NND on Killing attacks (used in poison rules) being a +2 
advantage.  It's probably an arguable position though. 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
| Name: John P. Weatherman    | Phone:                             |       
   
| email: asahoshi@nr.infi.net |    (H) (910) 785-1130              | 
| fax:   (910) 748-4632       |    (O) (910) 545-2722              | 
|_____________________________|____________________________________| 
| He who walking on the sea could calm the bitter waves, who gives | 
| life to the dying seeds of the earth; He who was able to loose   | 
| the mortal chains of death and after three days' darkness could  | 
| bring again to the upper world the brother of his sister Martha: | 
| He, I beleive, will make Damasus rise again from the dust.       | 
|                              Pope St. Damasus I (c.305-384)      | 
|__________________________________________________________________| 
 
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Subject: Re: Wrack power 
Date: Thu, 29 May 97 22:20:43 -0500 
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From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
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Anthony Jackson 
 
>Curt Hicks writes: 
>> I had thought about a continuous noncontrolled NND with the defense being 
>> not spending endurance, and the limitation that the damage is proportional 
>> to the amount of endurance the target spends.  Is this 'legal' ? 
>As a rule, no (definition of legal defense for NND is somewhat unclear). 
 
NND only calls for something reasonably common that can turn the power  
off. 
So if the defence is not spending END, that qualifies.  However, if a  
target 
stops burning END for 1 phase in that case, the wrack is cancelled and  
the  
target can then expend END again with no further ill effects. 
 
>> The target of this power suffers from agonizing pain whenever he or she 
>> exerts himself (i.e. spends endurance) The damage is proportional to the 
>> degree of exertion.   How can this be bought ? 
> 
>Reduce target's endurance to zero (via drain or suppress).  Target now has to 
>burn stun to spend endurance. 
 
Try a continuous uncontrolled EGO Blast with the limitation, dice applied  
proportional to END spent.  The limitation would be up to the GM, but I'd  
call it a -1/2 or so.  You could also use the Cumulative (+1/2) advantage  
off of transform.  Then the attack should eventually overwhelm any  
defences 
the target has assuming they continue to expend end. 
 
A word of warning...No END Continuous Uncontrolled Cumulative is NOT a  
good 
idea.  It evenually puts a target into a coma with little to nothing that 
can be done about it.  My GM did this with a SPE drain, needless to say no 
one was comfortable about it.  If you do do something like this, make  
sure  
to require some method of stopping it, whether its a mind control from a 
friendly to set things right or some drug or something. 
 
PAX 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
| Name: John P. Weatherman    | Phone:                             |       
   
| email: asahoshi@nr.infi.net |    (H) (910) 785-1130              | 
| fax:   (910) 748-4632       |    (O) (910) 545-2722              | 
|_____________________________|____________________________________| 
| He who walking on the sea could calm the bitter waves, who gives | 
| life to the dying seeds of the earth; He who was able to loose   | 
| the mortal chains of death and after three days' darkness could  | 
| bring again to the upper world the brother of his sister Martha: | 
| He, I beleive, will make Damasus rise again from the dust.       | 
|                              Pope St. Damasus I (c.305-384)      | 
|__________________________________________________________________| 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 31 22:48:01 1997 
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Invasion!?! 
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> 
>All these ideas are wonderfull.  And if your players wouldn't feel cheated 
>not being the ones who dealt the final blow then you should just run with it. 
> I backed the "queen bee" story line on the assumption that the invaders were 
>bad guys who needed to be stopped.  If if turns out they *are* wimps or 
>fleeing a greater terror (I like the fleeing especially) then of course the 
>scene is different.  But if they are fleeing to earth then we have the 
>pursuers to worry about. 
> 
>My players would love to team up  with Dr. Destroyer to thwart a global 
>threat.  They would eat it up.  But if the good (?) Doctor got to be the one 
>who finally finnished off the bad guys, I could not appologize enough to my 
>players.   
> 
 
in one of my campagns, the invasion started with the aliens oblitering all the toughest villans. Maybe Dr destroyer in a wheel-chair? 
 
 
 
>It is also very possible that you want the invasion to change the face of 
>your campaing.  Maybe they actualy are friendly and misunderstood.  Or maybe 
>they do take control of Hoboken. 
> 
 
In my opinion any 'campagn arc' should change the campagn. just my opinion, is all. 
 
 
>There are an infinate number of ways to play it.  But if you want the 
>invasion to be just one story arc out of many without altering too much the 
>face of your world, then the invaders must be dealt with somehow, and you 
>must consider the personality of your players and their team.  Would they 
>mind merely fighting a few battles or holding up the rear while some other 
>NPC heros took the glory? 
> 
 
 
but what if the 'rear-guard' ended up being the important battle? 
anyone else see the premiere of "Space: Above and Beyond"? 
 
 
 
 
>And of course the "Queen Bee" could be anything.  I did not mean to imply 
>that the good guys burst in with guns (and EBs) blazing.  What I meant was 
>that there should be one final and culminating Event that should make 
>everything all better.  And that the PC heros should be behind (no...not 
>behind...in front of) that Event. 
> 
 
this i have to disagree with. One event is an oversimplification, IMHO. 
 
>I should have been more exacting...less flippant in my original post. 
> 
be as flippant as you want. I condone flippancy. MORE FLIPPANCY ON CHAMP-L!!!  
I am just a bit leery of the 'star trek' type plots, is  
all. 
 
 
 
>Jay A 
> 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 31 22:48:03 1997 
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From: Tony Satterthwaite <arsenal@iquest.net> 
Subject: Top Ten Reasons to Suspect You Might be a Gamer 
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>Return-Path: <LghtnBolt@aol.com> 
>Delivered-To: arsenal@iquest.net 
>Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 03:03:25 -0400 (EDT) 
>From: LghtnBolt@aol.com 
>To: arsenal@iquest.net 
>Subject: Top Ten Reasons to Suspect You Might be a Gamer 
> 
> 
>TOP TEN REASONS TO SUSPECT YOU MIGHT BE A GAMER 
> 
>10)   You realize it's time to explain to junior Samuel isn't really a family 
>name, he was actually named after Sam Sun, the Shining  Samauri, one of the 
>founding members of the Gainesville Guardians. 
> 
>9)  You see the dictionary as a source of supervillians, creating teams like 
>the                 Terrible T's and the Killer Bs with a couple dozen 
>villians based on a single letter of the alphabet 
>                                                 
>        
>8)    After a phone call from an aggressive telemarketer who won't take "no" 
>for an .      answer you drop everything to create the Red Ringer, a demented 
>psychopath who screams "I SAID  I WASN"T INTERESTED!!" over and over until 
>his voice shatters his victoms eardrums. 
> 
>7)    You still have nightmares about all the things that went wrong with the 
>whole 
>"if-I-create-a-killer-tornado-20-miles-wide-and-start-wasting-hoosiers-they-MU 
>ST-make-me-King-of-Indiana" plot. 
> 
>6)    You wake up in the morning, hear the rain, and your first thought is:   
>.           "Fantastic!  My talking bullfrog is gonna LOVE today!" 
> 
>5)   You realize your typing has increased by 30 words a minute because of 
>all the  time you've spent working on the problems associated with creating a 
>unique magic system  
> 
>4)     At a party, after too many drinks, you realize you're saying"Yeah, I 
>killed ,       George Bush one New Year's Eve.  Sure, the damn good-guys 
> turned me to stone right afterwards but it was worth it."   and you actually 
>puff your chest out in pride as you boast:    "I was the reason  Dan Quail 
>became the  President in our realitiy!"  
> 
>3)     You watch every 60 minutes, Nightline, Dateline, Discovery Channel, 
>and Learning Channel  special you can find if it's about genetics, always 
>hoping to come with an even better way to build flying monkeys. 
> 
>2)    You realize this has to be at least the hundredth time you've had to 
>defend yourself for going back into the burning building for your gaming 
>files instead of the kittens. 
> 
>and the Number One Reason to Suspect You Might Be A Gamer... 
> 
>During foreplay you find yourself repeatedly saying:  "Do it, Babeazon!  Use 
>your Enchanted Handcuffs!" 
> 
>LghtnBolt@aol.com   Bill O'Neal              
> 
> 
Tony Satterthwaite 
http://www.iquest.net/~arsenal   Last Updated Jan 22, 1997 
Arizona Diamondbacks, CCABL APBA (c)  Baseball League 
*******							************* 
Government-run, tax-funded schools are nothing more than educational welfare. 
Separate school and state and free your children. 
Check out www.sepschool.org 
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From ???@??? Sat May 31 22:48:05 1997 
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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 01:18:29 -0500 
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us> 
Subject: Re: Determining Limitations 
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At 06:53 PM 5/29/97 +1000, happyelf! wrote: 
>here's a very small guide: 
> 
>-1/4 anything not involved directly in the campaign, like an effect that you 
>make up and the gm says "yeah, shure, whatever . ." 
> 
 
  In my Campaigns these are called -0 Limitations, "A limitation that does 
not limit is not a LIMITATION and is not worth a point break". Generally I 
just disallow most of these silly/stupid things.... 
 
 
>-1/2 Something really involved with the character: like kryptonite or 
silver, >something the character will see a lot of, within the plot of the 
setting(it not >just a random thingie) 
> 
 
Based on your examples, Kryptonite (at least for S-Man) would be a -1/4 in 
my campaigns (it's SUPPOSED to be rather rare), Silver would be worth a 
-1/2 ONLY 
if everyone new the character was affected by silver (ie A werewolf) 
otherwise it also would be a -1/4. 
 
  My general guideline is: 
 
	For every eight adventures how often will this effect you: 
 
		Once=			-1/4 
		Two Adventures=	-1/2 
 
		etc 
 
		Every Adventure	-2 
	Again this is only a guideline, but it works for me, and it keeps players 
	from coming up with "-1/4  Doesn't work when all the planets form a 
straight line from the sun" which happens (IIRC) about once every 10,000 yrs. 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 31 22:48:06 1997 
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From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net> 
Message-Id: <199705300727.DAA14856@access2.digex.net> 
Subject: Re: Determining Limitations 
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 03:27:27 -0400 (EDT) 
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970530011829.00693e90@globaldialog.com> from Earl Kwallek at "May 30, 97 01:18:29 am" 
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> 	from coming up with "-1/4  Doesn't work when all the planets form a 
> straight line from the sun" which happens (IIRC) about once every 10,000 yrs. 
>  
>  
   Well, you could allow it.  Then have Galactus come by once a month and  
re-arrange the planets into a nice, neat line. :-) 
 
                                             Daniel Pawtowski 
 
 
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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:22:47 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Wrack power 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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John P Weatherman writes: 
 
> NND only calls for something reasonably common that can turn the power  
> off. 
> So if the defence is not spending END, that qualifies.  However, if a  
> target 
> stops burning END for 1 phase in that case, the wrack is cancelled and  
> the  
> target can then expend END again with no further ill effects. 
  
No, you're thinking of 'uncontrolled'.  'Not spending END for a phase' 
certainly qualifies as a legitimate way to turn an uncontrolled power off. 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 31 22:48:10 1997 
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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:55:15 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: susano@access.digex.net, champ-l@omg.org, catdrag@vnet.net, 
        champion@cyberhighway.net, deejay@cu-online.com, 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu, sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca 
Subject: Re: CHAR: CT (Aquarius) 
In-Reply-To: <970530095438_149660464@emout12.mail.aol.com> 
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On Fri, 30 May 1997 BeerCarboy@aol.com wrote: 
 
> Hmmmnn, 20 STR?  Ithink that is an underestimate . . . 
 
Using my (rough) conversion charts, Aquarius would have an 18 STR.  I 
upped this to 20, but after reading Wildcards Book II, agree that he 
should probably have a 25 (maybe 30).  I don't think the GURPS Wildcards 
book fully represents that character properly. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:15:08 -0500 
From: "Joe Claffey Jr." <jrc@mail1.nai.net> 
Subject: Re: House Rule suggestion for Side Effects 
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"David A. Fair" <DFair@sdslink.com> wrote, 
>On 5/29/97 7:22 PM, Joe Claffey Jr. (jrc@mail1.nai.net) Said: 
> 
>> One variation that I've been toying with is to require any Side Effect 
>>that is an attack power (EB, KA, etc) to include the NND and Does BODY 
>>advantages (+2 total). This makes Side Effects unpleasant, but not fatal 
>>(how many characters can take a 12d6 EB that bypasses their defenses?) 
> 
>Are you really doing this? If I have a standard 12d6 EB (60 AP) (average 
>42 stun, 12 bod BEFORE defenses) and take the side effects disad (-1) I 
>get hit by a 12d6 EB, NND, Does Body (180 AP) (average 42 stun, 12 bod 
>and NO defenses). 
> 
>That seems a little extreme, and could be fatal to low BOD characters, or 
>those that had already taken som BOD damage. 
 
 The 12d6 EB that bypasses defenses is the *standard* way to do Side Effect 
(at the -1 level). My method reduces it to 4d6. 
 
  Joe Claffey               | "In the end, everything is a gag." 
  jrc@ct1.nai.net           |               - Charlie Chaplin 
 
 
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Subject: Re: House Rule suggestion for Side Effects 
Date: Fri, 30 May 97 10:12:21 -0400 
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From: "David A. Fair" <DFair@sdslink.com> 
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On 5/29/97 7:22 PM, Joe Claffey Jr. (jrc@mail1.nai.net) Said: 
 
> One variation that I've been toying with is to require any Side Effect 
>that is an attack power (EB, KA, etc) to include the NND and Does BODY 
>advantages (+2 total). This makes Side Effects unpleasant, but not fatal 
>(how many characters can take a 12d6 EB that bypasses their defenses?) 
 
Are you really doing this? If I have a standard 12d6 EB (60 AP) (average  
42 stun, 12 bod BEFORE defenses) and take the side effects disad (-1) I  
get hit by a 12d6 EB, NND, Does Body (180 AP) (average 42 stun, 12 bod  
and NO defenses).  
 
That seems a little extreme, and could be fatal to low BOD characters, or  
those that had already taken som BOD damage. 
 
  .oooO        | 
  (   ) Oooo.  | David A. Fair 
   \ (  (   )  | SDS International 
    \_)  ) /   | dfair@sdslink.com 
        (_/    | 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 31 22:48:22 1997 
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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:14:00 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: The Great and Powerful Turtle 
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970530171314.20783D-100000@access5.digex.net> 
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THE GREAT AND POWERFUL TURTLE 
(Thomas Tudbury) 
 
Designers Notes: 
The Turtle is *the* most powerful telekineticist in the world.  As Thomas 
Tudbury, the Turtle stands 5'9" and weighs about 170 lbs, with collar 
length dark brown hair.  Within his 'shell' however, the Turtle become a 
true 'superhero', righting wrongs, saving those in distress and doing his 
best to combat crime.  Although he's become a bit cynical over the years, 
the Turtle still keeps at it, doing his best to keep the streets of New 
York safe for everyone. 
 
Note: Some people way want to give the Turtle some for of Variable Area of 
Affect advantage to the Turtle's TK.  He can use his TK much like a giant 
pair of hands, pushing people about, picking up masses of water and so on. 
The 100 STR value was achieved due to the fact that the Turtle *lifted* 
the battleship New Jersey out of the water for 30 seconds one day. 
 
Note II:  Turtles Hero ID requires him to be inside of his Shell to use 
his powers.  He can over come this psychological crutch outside of his 
Shell, but the Turtle is limited to about 10 STR and a x10 END cost. 
 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		9		-1 
Dex		11		3 
Con		11		2 
Body		10		0 
Int		18		8 
Ego		15		10 
Pre		10		0 
Com		10		0 
PD		2		0 
ED		2		0 
Spd		3		9 
Rec		4		0 
End		22		0 
Stun		21		0 
Char Total			31 
Power Total			318 
Total Cost			349 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
240	TK: 100 STR, Invisible to Sight (+1/2), 0 END, Only in HID (-1/4) 
 
31	Vehicle: Turtle's Shell 
 
10	Wealth 
6	AK: New York City 16- 
9	Electronics 14- 
6	KS: Comic Books 16- 
4	KS: Electronics 14- 
2	PS: Electrician 11- 
5	Systems Operation 14- 
5	Trading 12- 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
10	Phys: Bad eyes, needs glasses 
15	Psych: Protective of innocents, feels it is his duty to aid those 
	in trouble 
10	Psych: Shy, tends to keep to himself 
15	Secret ID 
 
(The Great and Powerful Turtle created by George R R Martin, character 
sheet created by Michael Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 31 22:48:24 1997 
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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:15:06 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
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        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Turtle's shell 
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THE GREAT AND POWERFUL TURTLE'S SHELL 
 
This is Turtle's shell.  It is made from old battleship armor plate, 
layered over (at least the first time around) the body of a Volkswagen 
Beetle.  Later models have included a reclining chair, refrigerator, 
external spotlights, a loudspeaker system and an on board computer.  I'll 
leave those sorts of modifications up to individual GMs. 
 
STAT		VALUE		COST 
Size		3.2x1.6		25	 
DCV		-3		 
Mass (KB)	4t (-3)		 
STR		35		0 
DEF		20		54 
BODY		15		0 
DEX		11		3 
SPD		3		9 
Flt Move	30"		60 
MAX		180 
Char Total			151 
Equip Total			21 
Total Cost			172 
 
COST	EQUIPMENT	 
5	360 Degree Vision IAF (cameras) 
6	HRRH, IIF (internal radio) 
2	IRJVision (IR filters for cameras), IAF 
8	Radar, IIF 
 
Disadvantages 
157	Base 
15	DF: Turtle's Shell, a one-of-a-kind vehicle 
 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 31 22:48:26 1997 
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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:54:40 -0400 (EDT) 
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cc: catdrag@vnet.net, champion@cyberhighway.net, deejay@cu-online.com, 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
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Subject: Re: CHAR: CT (Aquarius) 
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Hmmmnn, 20 STR?  Ithink that is an underestimate . . . 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Carter Humphrey                                       BeerCarboy@AOL.com 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 31 22:48:27 1997 
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Message-ID: <338F4D20.585B@dacmail.net> 
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:56:48 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) 
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Subject: Re: House Rule suggestion for Side Effects 
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Joe Claffey Jr. wrote: 
>  
> "David A. Fair" <DFair@sdslink.com> wrote, 
> >On 5/29/97 7:22 PM, Joe Claffey Jr. (jrc@mail1.nai.net) Said: 
> > 
> >> One variation that I've been toying with is to require any Side Effect 
> >>that is an attack power (EB, KA, etc) to include the NND and Does BODY 
> >>advantages (+2 total). This makes Side Effects unpleasant, but not fatal 
> >>(how many characters can take a 12d6 EB that bypasses their defenses?) 
> > 
> >Are you really doing this? If I have a standard 12d6 EB (60 AP) (average 
> >42 stun, 12 bod BEFORE defenses) and take the side effects disad (-1) I 
> >get hit by a 12d6 EB, NND, Does Body (180 AP) (average 42 stun, 12 bod 
> >and NO defenses). 
> > 
> >That seems a little extreme, and could be fatal to low BOD characters, or 
> >those that had already taken som BOD damage. 
>  
>  The 12d6 EB that bypasses defenses is the *standard* way to do Side Effect 
> (at the -1 level). My method reduces it to 4d6. 
 
 
I dont have my books with me, and maybe this was a house rule, but an 
old GM always made the side effect NND for free.  His logic?  If not 
NND, it wasn't worth anything (especially the 30 pt effect level).  If 
you get to apply your defenses towards the side effect, how often is 6d6 
going to get through?  Go ahead and give me that freebie -1/2 side 
effect on ALL of my powers!! 
 
Todd 
 
--  
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
 Todd Hanson                       Minnesota: Land of two seasons: 
 BadTodd@dacmail.net               winter is coming, winter is here. 
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 31 22:48:28 1997 
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 18:27:57 -0500 (CDT) 
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Subject: Wrack power 
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D'oh !  Thanks to all who pointed out that the spending stun as endurance  
rules nicely takes care of this, assuming you can nullify all of somebody's 
endurance.    
 
Curt  
 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 31 22:48:29 1997 
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Subject: CHAR: Turtle's shell 
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Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes:  
 
> BODY		15		0 
> DEX		11		3 
> SPD		3		9 
> Flt Move	30"		60 
> MAX		180 
 
Actually, strictly speaking, the Turtle's shell should have no movement 
capabilities on its own, since the Turtle moves it with his awesomely 
powerful TK. 
 
Curt  
 
p.s. I like the adaptions ! 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 31 22:48:30 1997 
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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:17:44 -0700 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberhighway.net> 
Subject: Re: House Rule suggestion for Side Effects 
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>I dont have my books with me, and maybe this was a house rule, but an 
>old GM always made the side effect NND for free.  His logic?  If not 
>NND, it wasn't worth anything (especially the 30 pt effect level).  If 
>you get to apply your defenses towards the side effect, how often is 6d6 
>going to get through?  Go ahead and give me that freebie -1/2 side 
>effect on ALL of my powers!! 
 
In the original Fantasy Hero rules that is how it worked... but they changed 
that with 4th edition.  The comments about how little effect 30 active 
points has are based only on Champions experience.  Make a wizard for 
Fantasy hero some time and see what the 2D6 HKA or a 3D6 flash side effect 
does... especially when the spell is less than 30 active points its self. 
 
In my opinion, the side effects should be more like this: 
 
        -1/2: 10 active points or 1/2 the points of the power 
          -1: 30 active points or equal to power  
        whichever is greater. 
         
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 31 22:48:31 1997 
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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:07:55 -0700 
From: Tim Statler <tstatler@igateway.net> 
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Subject: Character Challenge (long) 
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A hero I have has 2 DNPCs. I'd like to challenge the list to create one 
or both of them. I'll give you some background and a few possible disads 
and let the creators create. There is no prize but the final 2 choices 
I'll repost and recognize the author. 
 
Without further ado here are their backgrounds. 
 
Grampa William Smith (I'm terrible with names) 
 
Billy Smith was a young golden gloves boxer in the late 1930s - early 
1940s. He was on the way to making a name for himself when the US became 
invovled in WWII. Like most of his generation, he volunteered for the 
Marines. He fought in the Pacific campaign, Island hoping. During one 
fight, he rescued an injured Japanese soldier from being killed 
outright. The soldier wasn't the simple man Billy thought and according 
to tradition, now owed Billy his life. 
 At the time Billy didn't give it much thought. After the war, he went 
back to his Boxing career. He unfortuneately fell into the clutches of 
the wrong people, people who could garentee him wins. Billy realized 
only when it was too late, what the enevitable was going to be. To 
garuntee a life for his new wife and son he bought a gym in [campaign 
city]. A little over a year later, the men who managed him told him to 
take a dive or else. Billy decided to stand up to them and ended up 
beating his opponent. The men who he had burned decided to get even. 
They caught him unaware and beat him, breaking his back in the process. 
To keep him from testifing against them, they threatened his family. 
 He went home to manage the Gym. A few weeks later a knock on the door 
heralded the arrival of the Japanese soldier he had saved. The Japanese 
moved into a small apartment over the Gym and did wwhatever work the gym 
needed. His discussions with the Japanese led William to go to the 
police with what he knew of the Gangsters. Days later, his apartment 
caught fire while he was at the gym, killing his wife. He moved into the 
Apartment over the gym with his son (who had been in school at the time 
of the fire).  
 Years later his son was grown, married and had a young boy of his own. 
Tragedy struck again, as his son and wife were killed in a traffic 
accident. William Smith took in his Grandson to finish raising, 
instilling in him a sense of right and wrong, using himself as a 
negative example. Later the boy became X and fought the gangs and other 
villians as a costumed hero. 
 
Mr.Hitaschu Myogi (If you know Japanese spelling please correct mine, 
written in Western Style) 
 
Myogi had grown up in a family of samuri, and masters of the martial 
arts, instilling in him a code of duty and honor. He joined the imperial 
marines upon reaching adulthood, and fought in the pacific during WWII. 
His life took a great turn when, while wounded and about to be killed by 
an American soldier, another intervended and saved his life. He went 
into a POW camp for the remainder of the war and home after the 
surrender. 
He search for the American to whom he owed the life debt, but didn't 
find him until he saw a newspaper article about a boxer who had been 
nearly killed by Mobsters. He recognized him as the man who saved his 
life and sold what he had to travel to America.  
He took a job working for his new freind doing watever was needed at the 
gym, from cleaning to fixing broken plumbing. He also debated life with 
him, trying to instill honor. After William Smith's wife died, he shared 
his living space with the man and his son.  
 When William took in his grandson, Mr. Myogi (What the boy always 
called him) taught him the ways of the samuri and karate. The boy took 
to the training rather easily and became a master himself.  
 
Here is some disads and othe rnotes for the 2 DNPCs: 
 
William Smith: 
Incompetent DNPC 
may have a few jabs etc. still in memory. 
 
AGE 60+ (approx 75 to 80 now) 10 pts 
Pys Lim: Paralzed from waist down, can't walk. freq,great  15 pts 
Distinctive features: Wheelchair, conceal w/effort, is always noticed  
15 pts. 
 
 
Mr. Hitaschu Myogi 
Normal DNPC 
 
Karate Master 
 
Age 40+ (about same age as William Smith but in much better shape)  5 
points 
Dis Feature: Japanese easily conceal, note&recognized     5 points 
Psych LIm: Indebted to, loyal to William Smith (common, strong) 
(this is just a minimum. could be stronger if modeled correctly.) 
 
 
 
Thanks and good huniting 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 31 22:48:33 1997 
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Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:39:00 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Turtle's shell 
In-Reply-To: <199705302325.SAA24664@b04b17.exu.ericsson.se> 
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On Fri, 30 May 1997, Curt Hicks wrote: 
 
> Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes:  
>  
> > BODY		15		0 
> > DEX		11		3 
> > SPD		3		9 
> > Flt Move	30"		60 
> > MAX		180 
>  
> Actually, strictly speaking, the Turtle's shell should have no movement 
> capabilities on its own, since the Turtle moves it with his awesomely 
> powerful TK. 
 
Uhm, well, yes... but in effect, the Shell is a vehicle and not a focus. 
Even the GURPS sourcebook lists it a 'vehicle' of sorts. 
 
> p.s. I like the adaptions ! 
 
Thanks! 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 31 22:48:34 1997 
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Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:33:51 -0400 (EDT) 
Message-ID: <970531013350_2020142377@emout07.mail.aol.com> 
Subject: Re: Invasion!?! 
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In a message dated 97-05-30 12:12:09 EDT, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
(happyelf!) writes: 
 
>  >...there should be one final and culminating Event that should make 
>  >everything all better.  And that the PC heros should be behind (no...not 
>  >behind...in front of) that Event. 
>  > 
>   
>  this i have to disagree with. One event is an oversimplification, IMHO. 
   
I just gotta restate my point here.  Virtually all good fictional stories 
wrap up with a demouement.  From Homer to John Byrne there is almost always 
the one Final Event that brings the story to a close.  Maybe (sure) there are 
unanswered questions, but the Final chapter is just that...the Final Chapter. 
 And in a role playing enviornment I think it would be unfair to the players 
if the Event didn't feature them.   
 
I don't think you're disagreeing with me on this point.  At least I hope your 
not. 
 
And of course I agree with you that most good story arcs should change the 
face of the campaing.  But they don't all have to be complete plastic 
surgical overhauls.  And if the players just thought they where bringing up 
the rear but found themselves saving the planet...great.  As long as they're 
the ones doing the saving.  As long as the Event features them. 
 
I maintain that the best stories are the purest ones.  Don't get me 
wrong...The characters needn't be simple or ordinary.  Nor do the actual 
plots and the events in them need to be hackneyed or too easy to second 
guess.  There should always be at least one or two surprises.  But the age 
old rules of presenting a story have rarely to be improved upon.   
In the immortal words of Henry David Thoreau:  " Simplify, simplify, 
simplify". 
 
Of course Thoreau said it three times when he only needed to once. 
 
Jay "the flip" A. 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 31 22:48:36 1997 
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Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:35:40 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Wildcards characters 
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970531013150.4805A-100000@access5.digex.net> 
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For anyone who is keeping track, here is a list of completd (nad planned) 
GURPS Wildcards conversions.  Note, not all the complete characters have 
been posted yet. 
 
	NAME				POINTS	 
	Astronomer, The	 
	Bagabond	 
	Black Eagle	 
	Bludgeon			129 
	Cpt. Trips			64 
	(Aquarius)			100 
	(Aquarius - Dolphin Form)	478 
	(Cosmic Traveler)		377 
	(Jumping Jack Flash)		715 
	(Moonchild)			450 
	(Starshine)			378 
	Carnifex			334 
	Chaisson Cordelia		201 
	Chickenhawk			52 
	Cyclone				302 
	Deadhead	 
	Demise	 
	Dr. Tachyon	 
	Elephant Girl			92 
	(Elephant form)			341 
	Envoy, The	 
	Fadeout				210 
	Fantasy	 
	Father Squid			178 
	Fortunato	 
	Gimli				106 
	Golden Boy			309 
	Harlem Hammer, The		310 
	Howler, The			244 
	Kid Dinosaur	 
	Kien Phuc			136 
	Mistral	 
	Lazy Dragon	 
	Mackie Messer			336 
	Modular Man			631 
	Oddity, The			199 
	Peregrine			196 
	Popinjay			463 
	Puppetman	 
	Quasiman			200 
	Quinn the Eskimo	 
	Sewer Jack			75 
	(Alligator form)		179 
	Sleeper, The			varies 
	Steele, George	 
	Strauss, Jerimiah		100 
	Ti Malice			201 
	Travineck, Maxim	 
	Troll				153 
	Turtle, The			349 
	(Shell)				172 
	Warlock	 
	Water Lily	 
	Whisperer	 
	Worchester, Hiram	 
	Wraith				232 
	Wyrm				285 
	Wyungare			170 
	Yeoman				335 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 31 22:48:37 1997 
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Message-ID: <338FB2F7.1C5A@dacmail.net> 
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:11:19 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
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Subject: Web sites with useful info for Champs GMs? 
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One of the toughest parts of being a Champs GM is coming up with new 
scenarios that are more than 'the villians are robbing the bank - you 
all manage to arrive at the same time... phase 12!' 
 
I stumbled across a neat site that has sparked several scenario ideas.  
It has all kinds of articles on the latest and greatest science news 
(including things like new findings about stars and planets, the effects 
of space travel on germs and bacteria, the current status of the Russian 
space program, etc).  All the neat things that might trigger a new super 
hero or villian, or might be the target of that slightly insane 
scientist...  The site is http://www.sciencenow.org if you want to check 
it out. 
 
This got me to wondering.. has anyone else stumbled on a non-champions 
web site that has information useful to a Champs GM? 
 
Todd 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 31 22:48:38 1997 
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Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:13:39 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
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After watching the latest episode of the new Spawn animated series, I 
realized that I actually have no clue what the guys actual powers are.  
I never bothered with the comic when it came out (seemed like just 
another Image 'anti-hero' title).    
 
Has anyone attempted a Champions write up of Spawn?  Would you like to 
share it with me (and the list?) 
 
Todd 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 31 22:48:39 1997 
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Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 17:26:55 -0700 
From: "happyelf!!!!" <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
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Subject: Re: Invasion!?! 
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> I just gotta restate my point here.  Virtually all good fictional stories 
> wrap up with a demouement.  From Homer to John Byrne there is almost always 
> the one Final Event that brings the story to a close.  Maybe (sure) there are 
> unanswered questions, but the Final chapter is just that...the Final Chapter. 
>  And in a role playing enviornment I think it would be unfair to the players 
> if the Event didn't feature them. 
 
yeah, and they were *literature*, while this is *roleplaying*- it keeps going, and  
where it goes is up to the players- tying it down like this is a bad idea.  
 
>  
> I don't think you're disagreeing with me on this point.  At least I hope your 
> not. 
>  
 
yes, i am. not your tone,  your point.  
your tone is fine, your point is incorect. 
hence my point about your point, as opposed to a point about your tone(sorry) 
 
> And of course I agree with you that most good story arcs should change the 
> face of the campaing.  But they don't all have to be complete plastic 
> surgical overhauls.  And if the players just thought they where bringing up 
> the rear but found themselves saving the planet...great.  As long as they're 
> the ones doing the saving.  As long as the Event features them. 
>  
 
but i would argue for millions of these "events" like . .say they have in all the  
crosovers? spidey bussed some sentinels in onslaught, too, y'know. . . .it was a good  
use of his character . .  . 
 
 
 
> I maintain that the best stories are the purest ones.  Don't get me 
> wrong...The characters needn't be simple or ordinary.  Nor do the actual 
> plots and the events in them need to be hackneyed or too easy to second 
> guess.  There should always be at least one or two surprises.  But the age 
> old rules of presenting a story have rarely to be improved upon. 
> In the immortal words of Henry David Thoreau:  " Simplify, simplify, 
> simplify". 
>  
 
but he wasn't six people!! an rpg CANNOT follow the rules of literature!  
sorry, but this is one of the major misconceptions i hav come across.  
a good game does not a good book make, and vice versa is also true. 
 
 
> Of course Thoreau said it three times when he only needed to once. 
>  
 
actually, he needed to say it three times- his secretary coudn't take dictation  
for nuts . .*lol* 
 
 
> Jay "the flip" A.flip away, man! 
 
 
so, what does the rest of the list think? 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 31 22:48:40 1997 
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Subject: Re: Invasion!?! 
Date: Sat, 31 May 97 09:37:50 -0500 
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happyelf!!!! 
 
>> I just gotta restate my point here.  Virtually all good fictional stories 
>> wrap up with a demouement.  From Homer to John Byrne there is almost always 
>> the one Final Event that brings the story to a close.  Maybe (sure) there  
are 
>> unanswered questions, but the Final chapter is just that...the Final  
Chapter. 
>>  And in a role playing enviornment I think it would be unfair to the players 
>> if the Event didn't feature them. 
> 
>yeah, and they were *literature*, while this is *roleplaying*- it keeps  
>going, and where it goes is up to the players- tying it down like this is  
>a bad idea.  
 
In my experience, the rules of good literature, when applied to  
role-playing,  
make execellent role-playing.  A story should tie up and should have a  
cumulating Event.  This does not imply an ending however sence, just like 
novels, the next sequel is always arround the corner.  As a player, I get 
VERY discouraged when there aren't final grant Events, one per story arc,  
to cleanly let the playing move into a new arena. 
 
I do agree that some things that work in literature don't work in  
role-playing 
very well, precognition being at the top of my list, but the basic  
structure 
works very well. 
 
>> And of course I agree with you that most good story arcs should change the 
>> face of the campaing.  But they don't all have to be complete plastic 
>> surgical overhauls.  And if the players just thought they where bringing up 
>> the rear but found themselves saving the planet...great.  As long as they're 
>> the ones doing the saving.  As long as the Event features them. 
>>  
> 
>but i would argue for millions of these "events" like . .say they have in  
>all the crosovers? spidey bussed some sentinels in onslaught, too, y'know 
>. . . .it was a good use of his character . .  . 
 
Crossovers do not preclude the use of a final cumulating even that ends  
the 
mechanism by which the crossover occured. 
 
> 
>> I maintain that the best stories are the purest ones.  Don't get me 
>> wrong...The characters needn't be simple or ordinary.  Nor do the actual 
>> plots and the events in them need to be hackneyed or too easy to second 
>> guess.  There should always be at least one or two surprises.  But the age 
>> old rules of presenting a story have rarely to be improved upon. 
>> In the immortal words of Henry David Thoreau:  " Simplify, simplify, 
>> simplify". 
>>  
> 
>but he wasn't six people!! an rpg CANNOT follow the rules of literature!  
>sorry, but this is one of the major misconceptions i hav come across.  
>a good game does not a good book make, and vice versa is also true. 
 
I would maintain that the biggest misconception I've come across is that  
the 
rules of literature shouldn't apply to role-playing.  A good RPG should a  
good 
story tell, and a good story should make a good book.  However I'll grant  
that 
a good book may not always work the best as an RPG.  The issue here being  
the 
writer doesn't control the main character anymore, the plotlines are  
usually  
still good material, the Events just never turn out right! :) 
 
PAX. 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
| Name: John P. Weatherman    | Phone:                             |       
   
| email: asahoshi@nr.infi.net |    (H) (910) 785-1130              | 
| fax:   (910) 748-4632       |    (O) (910) 545-2722              | 
|_____________________________|____________________________________| 
| He who walking on the sea could calm the bitter waves, who gives | 
| life to the dying seeds of the earth; He who was able to loose   | 
| the mortal chains of death and after three days' darkness could  | 
| bring again to the upper world the brother of his sister Martha: | 
| He, I beleive, will make Damasus rise again from the dust.       | 
|                              Pope St. Damasus I (c.305-384)      | 
|__________________________________________________________________| 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 31 22:48:42 1997 
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Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 08:36:28 -0700 
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Turtle's shell 
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At 12:39 AM 5/31/97 -0400, Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> wrote: 
>On Fri, 30 May 1997, Curt Hicks wrote: 
> 
>> Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes:  
>>  
>> > BODY		15		0 
>> > DEX		11		3 
>> > SPD		3		9 
>> > Flt Move	30"		60 
>> > MAX		180 
>>  
>> Actually, strictly speaking, the Turtle's shell should have no movement 
>> capabilities on its own, since the Turtle moves it with his awesomely 
>> powerful TK. 
> 
>Uhm, well, yes... but in effect, the Shell is a vehicle and not a focus. 
>Even the GURPS sourcebook lists it a 'vehicle' of sorts. 
> 
 
Well, since TK clearly states that you can't use TK to move yourself around. 
You can't pick up an object with TK, step on it, then fly around like the 
Silver Surfer. So you have to buy flight to simulate it. At most, the 
flight's special effect is Turtle's TK. 
 
>> p.s. I like the adaptions ! 
> 
 
Yep, they are way cool. :) 
 
-Nic 
 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 31 22:48:43 1997 
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From: Patrick Barden <absga@elbertonga.com> 
Subject: Re: Custom Character Drawings 
Cc: hero-l@omg.org 
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At 07:04 AM 5/29/97 -0400, Legionair@aol.com wrote: 
><<I am afraid I can only send pictures by snail mail.  I can send copies of 
>some of the stuff I have done for others. 
>Patrick B.>> 
> 
>That's fine.  I'll give you my home address and you can mail the copies of  
>the samples there.  The best thing I can think of is to send me those  
>copies and tell me how much you charged for each of them...  That would  
>give me the best idea of what you have and what you charge for it... 
> 
>Here's another question...  Are there any genres you don't like to do?  Or do 
>you stick strictly to Champions type stuff? 
> 
 
 
Thanks for all those who expressed interest in my custom drawings.  Here is 
where thing stand. 
 
I have had someone generously offer to scan my work for me so that I can 
send out samples in (hopefully) the very near future.  As far as price goes 
I usually charge around $10.00 for an 8 1/2 X 11 color drawing on vellum 
bristol. 
 
I have no real qualms about other genres so much as certain subject matter. 
No nudity, partial or otherwise.  I avoid subject matter of a patently 
demonic  nature.  (ie I'd rather not do Spawn style characters)  I try to 
avoid multiple characters in one drawing.  I usually ask for someone to give 
me a description first and then I decide whether I can do it or not. 
Usually if I refuse a drawing it is because I just don't think I can do a 
decent, satisfactory job of it. 
 
As soon as I have the scans ready to send I willlet the list kn ow and then 
anyone who wants copies can request them.  Any questions should be directed 
to me at my address not the list.  I will post answers to the list only when 
I get enough of the same request to make it practical 
 
Thanks for the interest. 
 
I'll be in touch. 
 
Patrick B. 
 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 31 22:48:45 1997 
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 31 May 97 02:29:02 GMT 
Subject: Determining Limitations 
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Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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 r > Hello All,  
 r >  
 r > Anybody have any good suggestions on how to determine the value of  
 r > non-standard limitations?  I'm looking for a way to remove some of the  
 r > subjectivity from the process (I realize that there is no way to make  
 r > it  
 r > totally objective, but some guidance would be beneficial).  
 r >  
 r > Rob  
  
One old rule of thumb for Limitations in the 'only when' or  
'not when' structure (where you either can use the power or cant):  
  
  The limitation should come up, on average, in about as many games  
as the proportion of the limitation:  so a 1/2 Lim, would come up  
in about half the games played, a -1 in most of them, and a -2 more  
than once in practically every game.  
  
For limitations that reduce the utility of a power, you're pretty much  
stuck comparing them to existing lims - find an existing limitation that  
is *more* limiting than the new one, and use it as a maximum.  
  
For limitations that are the 'reverse' of advantages:  If you want to  
play it conservative, say that they are half the value of the advantage:  
For instance:  Instant (-1/2) is the reverse of Constant (+1).  However,  
there are also instances where the vaules are the same at range and  
no range are +1/2 and -1/2, respectively.  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From ???@??? Sat May 31 22:48:46 1997 
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Subject: Re: Invasion!?! 
Date: Sat, 31 May 97 13:12:39 -0500 
From: Fugazi <fugazi@frontiernet.net> 
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-- [ From: Fugazi * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- 
 
 
-------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- 
 
> Date: Saturday, 31-May-97 09:37 AM 
>  
> From: John P Weatherman        \ Internet:    (asahoshi@nr.infi.net) 
> To:   champ-l@omg.org          \ Internet:    (champ-l@omg.org) 
>  
> Subject: Re: Invasion!?! 
>  
> happyelf!!!! 
>  
> >> I just gotta restate my point here.  Virtually all good fictional 
stories 
> >> wrap up with a demouement.  From Homer to John Byrne there is almost 
always 
> >> the one Final Event that brings the story to a close.  Maybe (sure) 
there  
> are 
> >> unanswered questions, but the Final chapter is just that...the Final  
> Chapter. 
> >>  And in a role playing enviornment I think it would be unfair to the 
players 
> >> if the Event didn't feature them. 
> > 
> >yeah, and they were *literature*, while this is *roleplaying*- it keeps  
> >going, and where it goes is up to the players- tying it down like this is 
 
> >a bad idea.  
>  
 
	I find it helpful to remember that the basis for champions is super-hero 
comics.  And there is no "final moment" in the comics that I enjoy.  Oh sure 
, the heroes may beat, force, or out-think a threat into a kind of dormancy, 
but would Batman be as interesting if he had destroyed the Joker completely 
and permanently in their first encounter?  No, in champions, as in comics, a 
good plotline is a series of threats layered over each other. 
 
>  
> >> And of course I agree with you that most good story arcs should change 
the 
> >> face of the campaing.  But they don't all have to be complete plastic 
> >> surgical overhauls.  And if the players just thought they where 
bringing up 
> >> the rear but found themselves saving the planet...great.  As long as 
they're 
> >> the ones doing the saving.  As long as the Event features them. 
> >>  
> > 
> >but i would argue for millions of these "events" like . .say they have in 
 
> >all the crosovers? spidey bussed some sentinels in onslaught, too, y'know 
> >. . . .it was a good use of his character . .  . 
 
	Exactly.  Keep the threat alive!  Keeps them on their toes.  Makes sure 
Superman doesn't become an overweight couch potato, ordering out for pizza  
("delivery please.  Address? 1 Fortress of Solitude.") and watching cnn for 
the Next Big Threat.  Kill 'em slowly with stress, I say. 
 
> > 
> >> I maintain that the best stories are the purest ones.  Don't get me 
> >> wrong...The characters needn't be simple or ordinary.  Nor do the 
actual 
> >> plots and the events in them need to be hackneyed or too easy to second 
> >> guess.  There should always be at least one or two surprises.  But the 
age 
> >> old rules of presenting a story have rarely to be improved upon. 
> >> In the immortal words of Henry David Thoreau:  " Simplify, simplify, 
> >> simplify". 
> >>  
> > 
> >but he wasn't six people!! an rpg CANNOT follow the rules of literature!  
> >sorry, but this is one of the major misconceptions i hav come across.  
> >a good game does not a good book make, and vice versa is also true. 
>  
 
	A good book? No.  But hopefully a heckuva comic book.  To draw on another 
analogy, a good champions campaign should be a nightmare for the heroes in 
which they are relentlessly pursued by an innumerable and unending stream of 
villains, or villanous deeds.  After all, if your group got together to play 
, and the campaign events consisted of receiving awards for the storyline 
they just ended, then "nothing else, guys.  Must be a slow week for crime!", 
they'd soon be bored.  But if they are attacked by a new threat while 
receiving the awards, well, then we're in business! 
 
From ???@??? Sat May 31 22:48:47 1997 
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(The following is an advertisement.) 
 
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(This is an advertisement for a Dark Champions PBEM called "Eve of  
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At 09:37 AM 5/31/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>happyelf!!!! 
> 
>>yeah, and they were *literature*, while this is *roleplaying*- it keeps  
>>going, and where it goes is up to the players- tying it down like this is  
>>a bad idea.  
> 
>In my experience, the rules of good literature, when applied to  
>role-playing,  
>make execellent role-playing.  A story should tie up and should have a  
>cumulating Event.  This does not imply an ending however sence, just like 
>novels, the next sequel is always arround the corner.  As a player, I get 
>VERY discouraged when there aren't final grant Events, one per story arc,  
>to cleanly let the playing move into a new arena. 
> 
 
I don't. imho, Loose ends and closure abuse a good campagn make. Otherwise 
the gm has to make basically a new campaign for each scenario, instead of just relying on the fabric of his continuity. 
 
 
 
>I do agree that some things that work in literature don't work in  
>role-playing 
>very well, precognition being at the top of my list, but the basic  
>structure 
>works very well. 
> 
 
but is it the structure of literatuer, or storytelling in general which applies? 
 
 
>>> And of course I agree with you that most good story arcs should change the 
>>> face of the campaing.  But they don't all have to be complete plastic 
>>> surgical overhauls.  And if the players just thought they where bringing up 
>>> the rear but found themselves saving the planet...great.  As long as they're 
>>> the ones doing the saving.  As long as the Event features them. 
>>>  
>> 
>>but i would argue for millions of these "events" like . .say they have in  
>>all the crosovers? spidey bussed some sentinels in onslaught, too, y'know 
>>. . . .it was a good use of his character . .  . 
> 
>Crossovers do not preclude the use of a final cumulating even that ends  
>the 
>mechanism by which the crossover occured. 
> 
 
yes, but from the perspective of (for instance) spidey, the battle he and pete(i know) 
had *WAS* *their* culminating event, and it was just as signifigant for them 
as any other culminating event. 
 
 
 
>>but he wasn't six people!! an rpg CANNOT follow the rules of literature!  
>>sorry, but this is one of the major misconceptions i hav come across.  
>>a good game does not a good book make, and vice versa is also true. 
> 
>I would maintain that the biggest misconception I've come across is that  
>the 
>rules of literature shouldn't apply to role-playing.  A good RPG should a  
>good 
>story tell, and a good story should make a good book.  However I'll grant  
>that 
>a good book may not always work the best as an RPG.  The issue here being  
>the 
>writer doesn't control the main character anymore, the plotlines are  
>usually  
>still good material, the Events just never turn out right! :) 
>PAX 
 
so in all honesty, we have very little in common with literature at all if what  
you say is true. Sorry, that's my opinion, and i just happen to be correct. *eg* 
i bet if you actually "nailed down" a set of rules for literature we would find  
that most of them don't apply to literature, littleown roleplaying. 
RPG's and literature are seperate and distinct: one cannot be made or judged directly from the other. 
 
 
From ???@??? Sun Jun 01 21:16:09 1997 
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Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 11:11:13 +1000 
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Subject: Re: Invasion!?! 
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>> >but he wasn't six people!! an rpg CANNOT follow the rules of literature!  
>> >sorry, but this is one of the major misconceptions i hav come across.  
>> >a good game does not a good book make, and vice versa is also true. 
>>  
> 
>	A good book? No.  But hopefully a heckuva comic book.  To draw on another 
>analogy, a good champions campaign should be a nightmare for the heroes in 
>which they are relentlessly pursued by an innumerable and unending stream of 
>villains, or villanous deeds.  After all, if your group got together to play 
>, and the campaign events consisted of receiving awards for the storyline 
>they just ended, then "nothing else, guys.  Must be a slow week for crime!", 
>they'd soon be bored.  But if they are attacked by a new threat while 
>receiving the awards, well, then we're in business! 
> 
> 
 
 
point taken. I think the only place this went overboard was in the spidey  
comics where PP ended up going mad from stress for a while- wimp! 
 
From ???@??? Sun Jun 01 21:16:11 1997 
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Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 11:43:07 -0700 
From: salvador <salvador@cww.de> 
Reply-To: salvador@cww.de 
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Subject: Der Drachenhort 
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Der Drachenhort hat seine Tore geöffnet ! 
 
-Was ist der Drachenhort ?- 
 
Der Darchenhort ist von einem Rollenspieler für alle Rollenspieler 
gemacht. Deshalb weiß ich auch wonach es euch dürstet:  
a) Infos übers Rollenspiel  
b) Abenteuer und Regelerwiterungen und  
c) Ein Ort an dem man gebrauchtes RPG Zubehör günstig kaufen und 
verkaufen kann.  
 
-Kommerz ????- 
 
Nein !  
 
Ich bin Schüler, und habe weiß Gott nicht vor hier aus Geldgier einen 
proffesionellen Versand oder so was aufzumachen. Ich werde aller 
Wahrscheinlichkeit nach etwas Profit machen, aber immerhin stecke ich  
auch jede Menge Arbeit in das Projekt.  
 
-Wieso?- 
 
Ich habe gesehen wie günstig man in den USA gebrauchtes RPG Zubehör 
bekommt, und denke daß das auch bei uns in Deutschland funktioniert. 
Alle    Rollenspieler profitieren davon:  
a) Will man ein neues System ausprobieren, muß man nicht Unmengen an 
Geld investieren, um dann festzustellen, daß einem das Produkt nicht 
zusagt.  
b) Findet man ein Produkt, was man sich gekauft hat nicht so toll, kann 
man es immer weiterverkaufen, und muß es nicht jahrelang im Bücherregal 
anstarren, und sich  über die Fehlinvestition ärgern, sondern kann sich 
darüber freuen, daß jetzt andere Spieler damit jede Menge Spaß haben. 
c) Es ist einfach billiger. 
 
-Wo, Wie ?- 
 
Das ganze Projekt befindet sich gerade im Aufbau, deshalb ist mein 
Angebot etwas knapp. Also schreibt mir, wenn ihr etwas verkaufen wollt 
!: 
< salvador@cww.de > 
Unter dieser Adresse könnt ihr auch das aktuelle Angebot und die 
Versandbedingungen anfordern.  
Im Internet findet ihr meine Homepage unter:  
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/3493 
 
-Die Homepage: Infos für und von euch !- 
 
Auf der Homepage findet ihr ein -noch- relativ kleines Angebot, da 
größtenteils von mir allein geschrieben, an Infos zu TSR, den AD&D 
Welten, White Wolf und der World of Darkness Reihe. Eine Einführung für 
Anfänger ist von einem anderen Autor verfügbar. 
Und es gibt den Formwwandler als Klasse für AD&D herunterzuladen. Und 
natürlich Links.  
Und jetzt seid ihr gefragt: Habt ihr etwas in Richtung RPG/Fantasy 
geschrieben, von dem ihr glaubt, saß es für viele Spieler interessant 
ist ?  Dann schickt es an < salvador@cww.de >, und ich tus vielleicht 
(mein Platz ist beschränkt) auf die Homepage. 
 
-Anfänger ?- 
Auf meiner Homepage findest du eine Einleitung zu RPG, außerdem stehe 
ich für Fragen unter < salvador@cww.de > zur Verfügung. Unter bestimmten 
Umständen leite ich auch euer erstes Abenteuer. 
 
Ich hoffe bald von euch allen zu hören,   
 
euer Salvador 
 
P.S.  Wie schon gesagt kann dieses Projekt eine Berreicherung für alle 
RPG Spieler sein. Doch die Vorraussetzung ist, daß ihr bereti seid 
mitzuarbeiten. Es liegt  in eurem Interesse. 
 
 
From ???@??? Sun Jun 01 21:16:13 1997 
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Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 13:26:03 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Kien Phuc 
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970601132453.10582C-100000@access5.digex.net> 
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KIEN PHUC 
 
Designers Notes: 
Kien Phuc is am older Asian man of average height with a slightly pudgy 
build.  He stands 5'10", weighs 175 and is always dressed in finely 
tailored, expensive suits.  A form ARVN general, he currently resides in 
New York, where he own a large chain of Chinese restaurants and dry 
cleaning stores.  He is also the head of the Shadow Fist Society, an 
organized crime group bent of becoming the master of the criminal 
underworld in New York.  Kien Phuc has recruited heavily among both Asian 
and Western Operatives, as well as using both nats, jokers and aces to 
accomplish his ends.  He is very ruthless, very dangerous and will kill 
anyone who cross him without the slightest hesitation.  He has made a 
mortal enemy of Yeoman, who has sworn to kill him.  While trying to kill 
Wraith, Kien Phuc lost most of his right hand.  Currently, Kien is the 
master of New York, having driven the mafia away and battled Yeoman to a 
stalemate. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		10		0 
Dex		12		6 
Con		14		8 
Body		12		4 
Int		20		10 
Ego		20		20 
Pre		18		8 
Com		10		0 
PD		4		1 
ED		3		0 
Spd		3		8 
Rec		5		0 
End		28		0 
Stun		24		0 
Char Total			65 
Power Total			71 
Total Cost			136 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
	MA: Than Vo Dao 
4	Block  +2 OCV  +2 DCV  Block, Abort 
3	Joint Lock  +0 OCV  -1 DCV  Grab One Limb; 20 STR to Hold  
3	Legsweep  +2 OCV  -1 DCV  3d6 Strike; Target Falls 
4	Punch  +2 OCV  +0 DCV  4d6 Strike 
3	Throw  +0 OCV  +1 DCV  2d6 Strike; Target Falls 
 
15	Wealth 
5	Perk: Head of the Shadow Fist Society 
2	Perk: Respected businessman 
5	Bureacratics 14- 
3	KS: Psychology 13- 
3	Oratory 13- 
3	Persuasion 13- 
3	Trading 13- 
2	WF: Small Arms 
10	Lang: Catonese (4), English (3), French (3), Vietnamese (native) 
3	SL: +1 with PRE skills 
 
Disadvantages 
75	Base 
5	Age: 40+ 
10	Hunted: Yeoman 8- (AsPow) 
15	Phys: One Hand 
10	Psych: Bad Tempered 
15	Psych: Greedy 
6	Experience 
 
(Kien Phuc created by John J Miller, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Sun Jun 01 21:16:15 1997 
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Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 13:24:32 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Elephant Girl (elephant) 
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ELEPHANT GIRL 
(Elephant form) 
 
Designers Notes: 
This is Radha's elephant form.  She assumes the shape of a full-grown, 
female, Asian elephant.  By flapping her ears, she can fly (GMs may want 
to put the limitation of "restrainable" upon her flight, but with a 65 
STR, I wonder if that's really a limitation).  When assuming the elephant 
form, Radha absorbs all the available electricity in the local area (up to 
several blocks away).  This could be bought in several ways, I decided to 
go with a Drain since that was the one power that would have the most 
effect upon PCs and NPCs.  A Transformation attack (with a huge Radius of 
Affect) would also work, the transforming blacking or shorting out of 
electrical devices.  When returning to human form, her excess masss is 
dissipated in the form of light energy, causing a brillaint flash. 
Naturally, the power level for these sorts of effects are very GM 
dependedent, I used the 'default' of 60 AP for all effects. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		65		25 
Dex		15		15 
Con		30		40 
Body		35		40 
Int		15		5 
Ego		13		6 
Pre		25		15 
Com		10		0 
PD		13		5 
ED		8		1 
Spd		3		5 
Rec		13		0 
End		60		0 
Stun		67		0 
Char Total			157 
Power Total			184 
Total Cost			341 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
33	Growth: 5 Levels, 0 END, Persistant, Always on 
7	Density Increase: 1 Level, 0 END, Persistant, Always on 
	+30 STR, +5 Body, +1 PD, +1 ED, +5 Stun, -6" KB, -3 DCV, +3 PER 
	 14' tall, 12,800 lbs 
 
18	Multiform: Radha Valeria O'Reilly (92 points) 
22	Energy Manipulation Multipower, Linked to Multiform Activation 
	(-1/2), 1 Recoverable Charge (charges recover by switching 
	Multiforms) (-1 1/4) 
2	u 3d6 Drain vs END Reserve, Radius of Effect, Electrical END 
	Reserves Only (-1), 1 Recoverable Charge 
2	u 4d6 Flash - Sight, Explosive, No Range, 1 Recoverable Charge 
 
20	1 1/2d6 HKA, Reduced Pentration - tusks 
15	Armor: +6 PD, +4 ED 
40	Movement Multipower 
8	m Flight: 20", END 4 
2	m Running: +6" (12" total), END 2 
5	Extra Limb: Trunk 
3	+1 with All Perception 
2	+1 with Smell Percpetion 
5	CSL: +1 w/HTH 
 
Disadvantages	 
100	Base 
15	DF: Asian Elephant 
10	Hunted: Priests of Gonesh (aspow) 8-  
5	Phys: Cannot Leap 
10	Phys: Limited Fine Manipulation 
10	Phys: Mute 
191	Experience 
 
(Elephant Girl created by Parris, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Sun Jun 01 21:16:17 1997 
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Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 13:28:17 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Yeoman 
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YEOMAN 
(Daniel Brennan) 
 
Designers Notes: 
Yeoman is the Batman of the Wildcard's universe.  He is of average height, 
standing 5'10" and weighs a muscular 175 lbs.  Yeoman has coarse black 
hair, dark eyes, and dark tanned skin.  He normally dresses very casually, 
although when operating as Yeoman he does wear a face mask (and leaves an 
Ace of Spades as a calling card on or near his victims).  Yeoman got his 
start in the late 60's in Vietnam.  There is where he first met Kien Phuc 
(see) and first learned of Kien's criminal activities (which included 
selling secrets to the North Vietnamese).  Yeoman's attempts to expose 
Kien resulted in the death of Yeoman's wife, as well as the deaths of the 
men in his command.  Since the fall of Saigon occurred soon after, Yeoman 
stayed in Asia, eventually traveling to Japan to join a monastery where he 
learned Zen and perfected his archery skill.  Returning to America in the 
mid-80's, Yeoman again envounted Kien, now in New York City, and resumed 
his vendetta.   
 
Note: Yeoman's stats are far beyond what most people would expect from a 
'normal'.  It should be pointed out that Yeoman's GURPS stats are 
similarly quite high, and that he is highly trained and very competant.   
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		15		5 
Dex		26		48 
Con		20		20 
Body		15		10 
Int		14		4 
Ego		23		26 
Pre		20		10 
Com		10		0 
PD		7		4 
ED		6		2 
Spd		5		14 
Rec		8		2 
End		40		0 
Stun		32		0 
Char Total			145 
Power Total			190 
Total Cost			335 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
22	Multipower: Compound Bow, OAF 
1	u 2d6 RKA Broadhead arrows, 12 Charges  
1	u 6d6 EB: Explosive, Act 11-, 4 Charges 
 
1	+1 RMod with Multipower, OAF: Compound Bow 
 
	Martial Arts: Karate 
4	Block  +2 OCV  +2 DCV  Block, Abort 
4	Disarm  -1 OCV  +1 DCV  25 STR Disarm 
4	Dodge  +0 OCV  +5 DCV  Dodge vs All, Abort 
3	Legsweep  +2 OCV  -1 DCV  4d6 Strike; Target Falls 
4	Punch/Snapkick  +0 OCV  +2 DCV  5d6 Strike 
5	Side/Spin Kick  -2 OCV  +1 DCV  7d6 Strike 
 
8	Running: +4" (10" total) 
12	Perception: +4 
 
3	Breakfall 14- 
5	Demolitions 12- 
11	Fast Draw (Bow) 18- 
4	KS: Horticulture 13- 
5	KS: Philosophy 14- 
5	KS: Zen Archery 14- 
3	Paramedic 12- 
5	Persuasion 14- 
5	Stealth 15- 
7	Streetwise 15- 
3	Survival 12- 
3	Tactics 12- 
2	TF: Helicopter, Parachute 
3	Tracking 12- 
17	Weaponsmith: Bows 18- 
3	WF: Blades, Small Arms 
9	Lang: Catonese (1), French (2), Japanese (2), Spanish (1), 
	Vietnamese (3) 
6	SL: +2 with all INT-based Skills 
16	CSL: +2 with Combat 
6	CSL: +2 with Multipower 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
15	Hunted: Shadow Fist Society (Mopow) 8- 
20	Psych: Loyal to friends and allies 
15	Psych: Hunting Kein Phuc 
15	Psych: Justice, not Law 
0	Psych: Leaves an Ace of Spades as a 'calling card' 
15	SID: Daniel Brennan, US Army deserter 
155	Experience Bonus 
 
(Yeoman created by John J Miller, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Sun Jun 01 21:16:19 1997 
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Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 13:22:00 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net, 
        Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> 
        greenlucifer@geocities.com, jdriscol@vt.edu, 
        Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com, 
        robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca, 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Elephant Girl (human) 
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970601132045.10582A-100000@access5.digex.net> 
MIME-Version: 1.0 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-UIDL: fa20ec8f16a69bc839b7eb2dcba53e81 
 
ELEPHANT GIRL 
(Radha Valeria O'Reilly - human form) 
 
Designers Notes: 
Elephant Girl (better known as Radha Valeria O'Reilly) is an Indian/Irish 
woman, who stands 5'2" and weighs all of 105 lbs.  She has a trim muscular 
figure, and posses the ability to shapeshift into a full-grown Asian 
elephant.  Currently, Radha uses this power as part of a circus act, 
working with a troupe of 'normal' elephants.  Due to her origins, she is 
hunted by priests of the Elephant god Gonesh, who wish for her to return 
with them to India.  Having escaped from their clutches when she was 17, 
Radha has no desire to return. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		8		-2 
Dex		20		30 
Con		14		8 
Body		12		4 
Int		15		5 
Ego		13		6 
Pre		13		3 
Com		18		4 
PD		2		0 
ED		2		-1 
Spd		3		0 
Rec		5		0 
End		28		0 
Stun		23		0 
Char Total			57 
Power Total			35 
Total Cost			92 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
10	Wealth 
3	Acrobatics 13- 
11	Animal Handler (elephants) 15- 
2	PS: Circus Performer 11- 
5	SC: Veterinarian 14- 
4	Lang: English (4), Hindi (native) 
 
Disadvantages 
50	Base 
10	Hunted: Priests of Gonesh (aspow) 8-  
5	Psych: Vegitarian 
27	Experience 
 
(Elephant Girl created by Parris, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From ???@??? Sun Jun 01 21:16:20 1997 
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From: R Jacobs <rjacobs@radiks.net> 
Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 16:12:51 -0500 
Subject: Re: Web sites with useful info for Champs GMs? 
Newsgroups: october.hero 
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herolist wrote: 
>  
> From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
> Subject: Web sites with useful info for Champs GMs? 
> To: champ-l@omg.org 
>  
> One of the toughest parts of being a Champs GM is coming up with new 
> scenarios that are more than 'the villians are robbing the bank - you 
> all manage to arrive at the same time... phase 12!' 
> 
> /...snip/ 
>  
> This got me to wondering.. has anyone else stumbled on a non-champions 
> web site that has information useful to a Champs GM? 
>  
> Todd 
 
On a related issue:  Anyone have any good Champs-RELATED sites?  I've 
been searching the web for a few weeks and have found a severe lack of 
sites.  I know they are out there...I'm just not finding them...what are 
your FAVORITE CHAMPS sites? 
 
From ???@??? Sun Jun 01 22:15:59 1997 
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Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 18:58:16 
From: John Turner <Avery1@flash.net> 
Subject: Re: Web sites with useful info for Champs GMs? 
In-Reply-To: <3391E5D3.4810@radiks.net> 
References: <622_9705310037@october.com> 
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Well, not to blow my own horn, but I have a web page that is/will be 
featuring herosystem stuff from time to time.  The most notable is a 
nauseatingly comprehensive melee weapon list for fantasy hero.  It is in MS 
WORD 6.0 format.  There isn't a plain text version yet, as I don't want to 
realign all the tables. :p 
  It is at: 
http://www.flash.net/~avery1/heromain.htm 
 
Tell me what ya think... 
 
At 04:12 PM 6/1/97 -0500, R Jacobs wrote: 
> 
> 
>herolist wrote: 
>>  
>> From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
>> Subject: Web sites with useful info for Champs GMs? 
>> To: champ-l@omg.org 
>>  
>> One of the toughest parts of being a Champs GM is coming up with new 
>> scenarios that are more than 'the villians are robbing the bank - you 
>> all manage to arrive at the same time... phase 12!' 
>> 
>> /...snip/ 
>>  
>> This got me to wondering.. has anyone else stumbled on a non-champions 
>> web site that has information useful to a Champs GM? 
>>  
>> Todd 
> 
>On a related issue:  Anyone have any good Champs-RELATED sites?  I've 
>been searching the web for a few weeks and have found a severe lack of 
>sites.  I know they are out there...I'm just not finding them...what are 
>your FAVORITE CHAMPS sites? 
> 
> 
 
From ???@??? Sun Jun 01 23:36:22 1997 
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From: "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." <richberg@erols.com> 
Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 21:06:59 -0400 
Subject: Re: Web sites with useful info for Champs GMs? 
Newsgroups: october.hero 
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herolist wrote: 
>  
> On a related issue:  Anyone have any good Champs-RELATED sites?  I've 
> been searching the web for a few weeks and have found a severe lack of 
> sites.  I know they are out there...I'm just not finding them...what are 
> your FAVORITE CHAMPS sites? 
 
I haven't looked at any in awhile, but there are some good ones.  
I start checking with the Circle Of Heroes sight listing at 
 
http://www.webring.org/cgi-bin/webring?ring=coh&list 
 
From ???@??? Mon Jun 02 00:10:43 1997 
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From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net> 
Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 17:17:42 -0700 
X-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
Subject: Re: Web sites with useful info for Champs GMs? 
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At 04:12 PM 6/1/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>On a related issue:  Anyone have any good Champs-RELATED sites?  I've 
>been searching the web for a few weeks and have found a severe lack of 
>sites.  I know they are out there...I'm just not finding them...what are 
>your FAVORITE CHAMPS sites? 
 
There's always the Circle of HEROs.  This is an ever-expanding ring of Hero 
related web pages... 
 
The URL is in the Sig below: 
 
 
_________________________________________________________________ 
Jim Dickinson -=- Portland. OR  USA -=- champion@cyberhighway.net 
Castle Game Knight:           http://www.cyberhighway.net/~jd/cgk 
Join the Circle of HEROs:     http://www.cyberhighway.net/~jd/coh 
----------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
 
From ???@??? Mon Jun 02 01:11:43 1997 
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Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 23:16:33 -0400 (EDT) 
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Subject: Re: Web sites with useful info for Champs GMs? 
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try any of lthe heroes sites that is on the ring of heroes,(or hero ring, 
hero-ing, whatever).  If you don't like a site, it sure makes it easy to find 
another. 
 
From ???@??? Mon Jun 02 01:12:02 1997 
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Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 23:16:33 -0400 (EDT) 
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Subject: Re: Web sites with useful info for Champs GMs? 
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try any of lthe heroes sites that is on the ring of heroes,(or hero ring, 
hero-ing, whatever).  If you don't like a site, it sure makes it easy to find 
another. 
 
From ???@??? Mon Jun 02 22:26:22 1997 
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From: Darrin.Kelley@october.com (Darrin Kelley) 
Date: 01 Jun 97 23:44:06 GMT 
Subject: Source material 
Message-Id: <76f_9706020034@october.com> 
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X-Status:  
X-UID: 1 
 
 
 
    The recent release of The Babylon Project was something, at least 
locally, that was met with a great amount of anticipation. But other 
than simply being a good sourcebook on the Babylon 5 background, the 
game system itself is useless fluff. 
 
    The central problem with the Babylon Project is in the die rolling 
conventions they use. It is a straight target number based system. But 
unlike what was done in Fuzion, there is a straight 50-50 chance of 
success or failure, no matter how high a character's skill level is. 
Making any increase of stats or skills through experience a totally 
useless proposition. 
 
    Until recently, I was part of an official playtest group for the 
Babylon Project. The company itself made a titanic blunder from the 
outset. They published the game first and recruited the playtesters 
afterward. Which resulted in a slick looking product that is a truly 
inferior one. And judging from how the game worked in playtest, I'm not 
sure that they even knew if it worked before they published it in the 
first place. 
 
    My advice? If you choose to buy this game, don't use the system. 
Take the background and cull whatever you can from the character 
generation section and use another system. Like the Hero System, Fuzion, 
or even GURPS. 
___ 
 X SLMR 2.1a X Nothing is so smiple that it can't get screwed up. 
 
From ???@??? Mon Jun 02 22:26:23 1997 
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From: Eric Pawtowski <epawtows@cray-ymp.acm.stuorg.vt.edu> 
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 04:04:36 -0400 (EDT) 
X-To: hero-l@october.com 
Subject: Re: Source material 
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In-Reply-To: <76f_9706020034@october.com> from Darrin Kelley at "Jun 1, 97 11:44:06 pm" 
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>  
>     The central problem with the Babylon Project is in the die rolling 
> conventions they use. It is a straight target number based system. But 
> unlike what was done in Fuzion, there is a straight 50-50 chance of 
> success or failure, no matter how high a character's skill level is. 
> Making any increase of stats or skills through experience a totally 
> useless proposition. 
 
Suggestion: before you criticize a role-playing game, you might want  
to try reading the rules first.                        
 
    Eric 
 
 
 
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From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 97 06:45:14 -0500 
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Subject: Re: Source material 
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Eric Pawtowski  
>>     The central problem with the Babylon Project is in the die rolling 
>> conventions they use. It is a straight target number based system. But 
>> unlike what was done in Fuzion, there is a straight 50-50 chance of 
>> success or failure, no matter how high a character's skill level is. 
>> Making any increase of stats or skills through experience a totally 
>> useless proposition. 
> 
>Suggestion: before you criticize a role-playing game, you might want  
>to try reading the rules first.                        
> 
>    Eric 
 
The original poster was suposedly part of the Playtest group.  I would  
assume 
that means he HAS resd the rules.  If you're taking exception to his  
opinion, 
please site specific examples.  I haven't bought the rules yet and could  
be 
swayed either way by reasoned arguement, but personal attacks don't say  
anything about the game system itself.  My biggest grip with The Babylon  
Project 
is that, like in the Star Wars RPG, the rules don't allow for characters  
built 
along the same lines as the series.  In Star Wars, major players were  
built on  
60+ dice and characters started with only 7, in the Babylon Project  
they've 
got arbitrary rules like "no telepaths stronger than P5".  At least  
Champions 
generally allows for characters very similar in scope/nature to the  
comics it 
is pased upon. 
 
Comments? 
 
PAX. 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
| Name: John P. Weatherman    | Phone:                             |       
   
| email: asahoshi@nr.infi.net |    (H) (910) 785-1130              | 
| fax:   (910) 748-4632       |    (O) (910) 545-2722              | 
|_____________________________|____________________________________| 
| He who walking on the sea could calm the bitter waves, who gives | 
| life to the dying seeds of the earth; He who was able to loose   | 
| the mortal chains of death and after three days' darkness could  | 
| bring again to the upper world the brother of his sister Martha: | 
| He, I beleive, will make Damasus rise again from the dust.       | 
|                              Pope St. Damasus I (c.305-384)      | 
|__________________________________________________________________| 
 
 
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Subject: Re: Source material 
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 97 06:45:14 -0500 
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Eric Pawtowski  
>>     The central problem with the Babylon Project is in the die rolling 
>> conventions they use. It is a straight target number based system. But 
>> unlike what was done in Fuzion, there is a straight 50-50 chance of 
>> success or failure, no matter how high a character's skill level is. 
>> Making any increase of stats or skills through experience a totally 
>> useless proposition. 
> 
>Suggestion: before you criticize a role-playing game, you might want  
>to try reading the rules first.                        
> 
>    Eric 
 
The original poster was suposedly part of the Playtest group.  I would  
assume 
that means he HAS resd the rules.  If you're taking exception to his  
opinion, 
please site specific examples.  I haven't bought the rules yet and could  
be 
swayed either way by reasoned arguement, but personal attacks don't say  
anything about the game system itself.  My biggest grip with The Babylon  
Project 
is that, like in the Star Wars RPG, the rules don't allow for characters  
built 
along the same lines as the series.  In Star Wars, major players were  
built on  
60+ dice and characters started with only 7, in the Babylon Project  
they've 
got arbitrary rules like "no telepaths stronger than P5".  At least  
Champions 
generally allows for characters very similar in scope/nature to the  
comics it 
is pased upon. 
 
Comments? 
 
PAX. 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
| Name: John P. Weatherman    | Phone:                             |       
   
| email: asahoshi@nr.infi.net |    (H) (910) 785-1130              | 
| fax:   (910) 748-4632       |    (O) (910) 545-2722              | 
|_____________________________|____________________________________| 
| He who walking on the sea could calm the bitter waves, who gives | 
| life to the dying seeds of the earth; He who was able to loose   | 
| the mortal chains of death and after three days' darkness could  | 
| bring again to the upper world the brother of his sister Martha: | 
| He, I beleive, will make Damasus rise again from the dust.       | 
|                              Pope St. Damasus I (c.305-384)      | 
|__________________________________________________________________| 
 
From ???@??? Mon Jun 02 22:26:27 1997 
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Subject: Re: House Rule suggestion for Side Effects 
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 97 08:08:16 -0400 
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On 5/30/97 5:15 PM, Joe Claffey Jr. (jrc@mail1.nai.net) Said: 
 
> 
> The 12d6 EB that bypasses defenses is the *standard* way to do Side Effect 
>(at the -1 level). My method reduces it to 4d6. 
 
Sorry - I misunderstood: your'e still using a 60 AP attack. Sorry. 
 
  .oooO        | 
  (   ) Oooo.  | David A. Fair 
   \ (  (   )  | SDS International 
    \_)  ) /   | dfair@sdslink.com 
        (_/    | 
 
From ???@??? Mon Jun 02 22:26:29 1997 
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Subject: Damage modifiers 
Date: Mon, 02 Jun 97 12:51:34 -0500 
From: Fugazi <fugazi@frontiernet.net> 
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-- [ From: Fugazi * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- 
 
Just wanted some feedback on this... 
 
	Say I have a +4D6 Hand-to-Hand attack that I bought with Armor Piercing and 
Double Knockback.  I also have a 30 strength.  Does the dice for strength 
get the modifiers also?  If not, how do you work figuring damage? 
	Any help would be appreciated. 
 
 
				-fugazi 
 
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Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 11:08:47 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Damage modifiers 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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Fugazi writes: 
> Just wanted some feedback on this... 
>  
>      Say I have a +4D6 Hand-to-Hand attack that I bought with Armor 
> Piercing and Double Knockback.  I also have a 30 strength.  Does the dice 
> for strength get the modifiers also?  If not, how do you work figuring 
> damage?      Any help would be appreciated. 
 
Your strength gets the advantages, but must also power them up.  Thus, since AP 
and double knockback are a total of a 2.25 advantage, you get +1d6 per 11.25 
strength you use to power up the attack.  In addition, you may not use more 
strength to power up the attack than you have active points in the HA, limiting 
you to 27 strength.  This gives a total of +2.4 dice; as this is not enough for 
a half-die, the total damage of the attack is 6d6 (AP, double knockback). 
 
From ???@??? Mon Jun 02 22:26:31 1997 
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Message-ID: <33930C2C.1106@dacmail.net> 
Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 13:08:44 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
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Fugazi wrote: 
>  
> -- [ From: Fugazi * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- 
>  
> Just wanted some feedback on this... 
>  
>         Say I have a +4D6 Hand-to-Hand attack that I bought with Armor Piercing and 
> Double Knockback.  I also have a 30 strength.  Does the dice for strength 
> get the modifiers also?  If not, how do you work figuring damage? 
>         Any help would be appreciated. 
 
 
I think this was covered in the Ultimate Martial Artist - you can add 
your strength to the attack, but you don't get the full 6d6 - you have 
to do a little figuring based on the advantages you applied. 
 
You have 30 active points of strength.  The armor piercing and the 
double knockback are a total of +1.25 advantage.  You have to figure out 
how much strength you can add that, with the +1.25 advantage adds up to 
30 active points.  In this case you can add about 13 strength to the 
attack (comes out to 29.25 active points), so you can get about 2.5 
extra dice on your attack. 
 
 
Make sense? 
 
Todd 
 
--  
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
 Todd Hanson                       Minnesota: Land of two seasons: 
 BadTodd@dacmail.net               winter is coming, winter is here. 
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
 
From ???@??? Mon Jun 02 22:26:32 1997 
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Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 04:11:38 +0900 
From: Michael House <macross@gol.com> 
Subject: Re: Damage modifiers 
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At 12:51 -0500 1997.06.02, Fugazi wrote: 
 
> 	Say I have a +4D6 Hand-to-Hand attack that I bought with Armor Piercing 
>and 
> Double Knockback.  I also have a 30 strength.  Does the dice for strength 
> get the modifiers also?  If not, how do you work figuring damage? 
> 	Any help would be appreciated. 
 
Quoting from Ninja Hero, pp. 47-48: 
 
Power Advantage: Armor-Piercing 
 
An example: Let's say a character has STR 15 and a slew of (martial arts) 
maneuvers giving him up to 7d6 damage. He can buy: 
Example: Hand-to-Hand Attack, 4d6, 0 END (+1/2), Armor-Piercing (+1/2); 
24 pts. 
This will give him a 6d6 armor-piercing normal attack. 
You might be asking yourself, why doesn't it give him 7d6? STR 15 is 3d6, 
plus 4d6 from H-to-H Attack equals 7d6, right? Well, that's wrong--in this 
case. 
4d6 of H-to-H Attack is 12 points' worth of power (not counting the 
Armor-Piercing advantage). Therefore, the character, since he has not 
bought Armor-Piercing for his STR, can only add 12 STR to it--for +2d6. 
Thus, it's a 6d6 attack. If he were to buy Armor-Piercing for his STR, 
he could have his full 7d6. 
 
HTH ALAL, 
 
 
Be Seeing You... 
--Michael House, macross@gol.com, www.gainax.co.jp 
GAINAX Co., Ltd. (Opinions expressed are my own unless otherwise specified) 
Jibun no ishi o motanu nara, ikiteitemo shikata arumai 
 
 
From ???@??? Mon Jun 02 22:26:33 1997 
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From: "Vance Scott" <vances@sympatico.ca> 
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:36:03 +0000 
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Subject: The Infamous GM's Guide. 
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Foreword  
 
In an attempt to live up to my promises I present the following  
article. The enormity of writing a Guide to GameMastering, and  
Roleplaying became evident during my outlining. This effort falls  
short of my initial vision, but I needed to start or I never would.  
I welcome CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, and comments. 
 
Introduction 
 
A good place to begin a Guide to GameMastering is with roleplaying.  
Roleplaying is acting the part of another person. A roleplaying game is  
an activity where the participants derive enjoyment out of playing the 
various roles in a story, and  taking part in creation of a story. Roleplaying  
Games are best compared to improvisational theatre where the players take  
the part of actors, and the GameMaster that of director. Together  
the players, and the Game Master create the story of the heroes, and their  
world. The players job is that of  Actor, and Playwrite. The players role  
as actor is obvious, but the role of Playwright is often forgotten, or ignored.  
The players are responsible for the actions, and dialogue of the heroes making  
as important to the success of a game as the game master. The importance of  
the heroes, and therefore players to a story shouldn't be underestimated. The  
success, and enjoyment of a roleplaying game depends on both the players, 
and the Game Master. Usually; the players are responsible for the protagonists  
of a story, and the Game Master for the antagonists, and supporting  
characters. In order Guide Game Masters it is necessary to define the role that  
they play in a roleplaying game. A Game Master takes on the role of  
actor, director, and playwright. Taking on the three roles of a Game  
Master are obviously taxing. It is my hope that this guide will assist Game  
Masters in their efforts to run an meaningful, and enjoyable games. 
 
Authors Note: 
 
The following is a list of prospective topics please let me know if  
you think I'm missing something. I expect this list to be revised. 
 
1. Encouraging, and managing players 
2. Acting the many roles of a GM 
3. Managing, and Directing a Game 
4. The responsibility of story  
5. Outlining a Story 
6. Creating Characters 
7. Playing the Game 
 
Part II coming to a mail list near you. 
 
 
Vance Scott 
 
Vanquisher of all foes. 
 
From ???@??? Mon Jun 02 22:26:35 1997 
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In a message dated 97-06-02 14:02:27 EDT, fugazi@frontiernet.net (Fugazi) 
writes: 
 
> Say I have a +4D6 Hand-to-Hand attack that I bought with Armor Piercing and 
>  Double Knockback.  I also have a 30 strength.  Does the dice for strength 
>  get the modifiers also?  If not, how do you work figuring damage? 
>  	Any help would be appreciated. 
 
I think not.  I would make you buy AP and 2xKB on your strength as well as 
your HtH attack.   
 
Now if these were increased DCs with a martial arts, and you had bought the 
martial attack with AP and 2xKB I'd probably let you have it.  I dunno...I'd 
have to check my books. 
 
Jay A. 
 
From ???@??? Mon Jun 02 22:26:36 1997 
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
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Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 17:45:09 -0500 (CDT) 
Message-Id: <199706022245.RAA25160@b04b17.exu.ericsson.se> 
Subject: CHAR: Turtle's shell 
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> From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com> 
>  
> Well, since TK clearly states that you can't use TK to move yourself around. 
> You can't pick up an object with TK, step on it, then fly around like the 
> Silver Surfer. So you have to buy flight to simulate it. At most, the 
> flight's special effect is Turtle's TK. 
>  
>  
Sorry !  Touched a pet peeve.  I'll admit up front that this is hardly 
worth quibbling over.  
 
1) the Turtle uses telekinesis to move his shell around.  The shell should 
have no movement ability of it's own.  Perhaps movement based on the Turtle's 
TK ? 
 
2) Hero system "Telekinesis" does not let you lift yourself.   The stated 
reason for this in the rules is that "there is no action/reaction" with 
telekinesis.  This is absurd and incorrect.  If "there is no action/reaction" 
with telekinesis, then you CAN lift yourself.  Be that as it may, the last 
time I was whining about this, somebody wisely pointed out that the Hero 
System powers can be interpreted only by what they allow, rather than what 
the corresponding 'non-Hero' system power actually would allow.   
 
Curt  
 
 
 
 
From ???@??? Mon Jun 02 22:26:37 1997 
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
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Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 17:34:58 -0500 (CDT) 
Message-Id: <199706022234.RAA25156@b04b17.exu.ericsson.se> 
Subject: Wrack power  again 
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Actually, I thought about this more again over the weekend. 
I think it's still useful as a separate power from draining/suppressing 
endurance because: 
 
1) you might want to do more damage than the using stun as endurance rules 
cause 
 
2) you want to be sure to be able to affect everybody without limiting 
yourself by how much endurance you can drain or suppress 
 
Curt 
 
 
 
----- Begin Included Message ----- 
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
 
D'oh !  Thanks to all who pointed out that the spending stun as endurance  
rules nicely takes care of this, assuming you can nullify all of somebody's 
endurance.    
 
Curt  
----- End Included Message ----- 
 
From ???@??? Mon Jun 02 22:26:38 1997 
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subscribe 
 
Finally noticed I wasn't getting any ChampEmail!  =( 
 
 
 
 
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From ???@??? Mon Jun 02 22:26:40 1997 
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From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net> 
Message-Id: <199706022318.TAA19926@access2.digex.net> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Turtle's shell 
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 19:18:45 -0400 (EDT) 
In-Reply-To: <199706022245.RAA25160@b04b17.exu.ericsson.se> from Curt Hicks at "Jun 2, 97 05:45:09 pm" 
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>  
> 1) the Turtle uses telekinesis to move his shell around.  The shell should 
> have no movement ability of it's own.  Perhaps movement based on the Turtle's 
> TK ? 
    
  That's what it should have, yes.  Which I would buy as either the Turtle's 
Flight with a "Only while in HID" limitation, or as the Shell's flight 
with a "Only while occupied by the Turtle" limitation (probably a -0 
limit in most games, anyway).  In both cases, the SFX of the Flight is  
"The Turtle is lifting it with his TK". 
 
> 2) Hero system "Telekinesis" does not let you lift yourself.   The stated 
> reason for this in the rules is that "there is no action/reaction" with 
> telekinesis.  This is absurd and incorrect.  If "there is no action/reaction" 
 
The actual reason for this is the overall Hero metarule "You cannot use one 
power to do something that another power does."  Which means that if you 
want to fly, you have to use Flight.  You can't use TK to lift yourself. 
You can't use massive amounts of Stretching to swing under orbiting 
sattelites.  You can't use "Transform:  Person into Person Flying through  
Air".  Etc, etc.   
  The whole action/reaction bit was an attempt by the Hero authors to  
come up with a pseudo-physics reason.  In my opinion, they shouldn't have 
bothered to try, they just should have said "Look.  If you want to pick 
yourself up with your TK, then buy flight and use a TK SFX!".   
  Yes, this does lead to the occasional illogical situation of a powerful 
telekinetic falling to his death.  That's a case of a player who neglected 
to purchase all the logical abilities that his set of powers should include. 
(Admittedly, if I were GMing a case where a relatively new character 
fell off an office building like that, I'd probably let the character pick 
himself with TK and tell the player to buy some Flight with his experience 
for that session). 
 
> System powers can be interpreted only by what they allow, rather than what 
> the corresponding 'non-Hero' system power actually would allow.   
 
  Another way of stating that would be "Pay attention to the power's 
description, not it's name". TK is "The ability to lift objects at 
range".  Nothing more, nothing less.  The name "Telekinesis" is just 
a carrying handle for the power description, not the power itself. 
 
  A fair number of Hero rules will allow some ridiculous situations to 
those who don't pay enough attention to stuff like that.  Another 
example is Growth:  A giant standing a half-kilometer tall who can only 
tiptoe at 6" per phase?  Oops, that guy should have boght extra 
Running with SFX of "Really, REALLY big legs". 
Yes, extra Growth could have had more Running built in.  But there are 
some concepts that call for big immobile people.  To me, it's simpler 
to tell Paul Bunyon to buy more movement than to figure out what "Gains 
no ground movement from size" is worth for The Amazing Oak. 
 
                                               Daniel Pawtowski 
 
From ???@??? Wed Jun 04 20:12:29 1997 
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Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 18:38:10 -0700 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberhighway.net> 
Subject: HA Game 
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Has anyone ever seen the Murphy's laws for Computers?  Naturally, the DAY I 
want to start the game, we start to have Hard Drive troubles... The drive 
has been recussitated (it is naked on the desk here, sad little thing) long 
enough to get files off of it and let everyone know that there will be... 
sigh... a delay.   
 
I hate to do it on the Champs list, but this is the easiest way to get the 
information to everyone quickly and efficiently.  I am sorry about this, I 
anticipate getting everything running again by the end of the week... but I 
anticipated starting today too... 
 
Soo, see you when I get back on line, and thank God I was able to get on 
long enough to let you know what is up. 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
From ???@??? Wed Jun 04 20:12:30 1997 
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From: Eric Pawtowski <epawtows@cray-ymp.acm.stuorg.vt.edu> 
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:53:37 -0400 (EDT) 
X-To: hero-l@october.com 
Subject: Re: Source material 
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In-Reply-To: <199706021040.GAA01219@mh004.infi.net> from John P Weatherman at "Jun 2, 97 06:45:14 am" 
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>  
> The original poster was suposedly part of the Playtest group.  I would  
> assume 
> that means he HAS resd the rules.  If you're taking exception to his  
 
And I was in a playtest group about a year and a half before he was. 
I had to leave the game for job reasons. 
 
Admittedly, the rules were very much in their infancy that early and  
I haven't played since they were finalized, but I found most of his factual  
points innacurate, and I disagree with his opinions. 
 
I believe the fact that I was in a playtest that long ago negates one  
of his major arguments, that the game was not playtested before it was  
published.  It was playtested by quite a number of people besides myself. 
 
> opinion, 
> please site specific examples.  I haven't bought the rules yet and could  
 
I have a better idea.  I forwared his post to Joe Cochran, the author of  
the game.  Here is Joe's response, which he composed for this list: 
 
 
m: Darrin.Kelley@october.com (Darrin Kelley) 
>> Date: 01 Jun 97 23:44:06 GMT 
>> Subject: Source material 
>>  
>>     The recent release of The Babylon Project was something, at least 
>> locally, that was met with a great amount of anticipation. But other 
>> than simply being a good sourcebook on the Babylon 5 background, the 
>> game system itself is useless fluff. 
> 
>        You're certainly entitled to your opinion. But I feel that you 
>have gotten a few facts wrong. 
> 
>>     The central problem with the Babylon Project is in the die rolling 
>> conventions they use. It is a straight target number based system. But 
>> unlike what was done in Fuzion, there is a straight 50-50 chance of 
>> success or failure, no matter how high a character's skill level is. 
>> Making any increase of stats or skills through experience a totally 
>> useless proposition. 
> 
>        While it is a fairly standard skill+attribute+roll system, it  
>is NOT a 50-50 chance of success or failure. It uses a spectrum of  
>success and failure that allows you to determine not only S/F, but 
>the degree of S/F in one roll. I'm not sure how you figure 50-50.  
> 
>>     Until recently, I was part of an official playtest group for the 
>> Babylon Project. The company itself made a titanic blunder from the 
>> outset. They published the game first and recruited the playtesters 
>> afterward. Which resulted in a slick looking product that is a truly 
>> inferior one. And judging from how the game worked in playtest, I'm not 
>> sure that they even knew if it worked before they published it in the 
>> first place. 
>> 
>>        This is patently untrue. While you may not agree with the results 
>of the playtesting, we DID have playtest groups before yours (if you were 
>in the one I'm assuming you're in). In fact, except for your note, I've 
>only seen criticism of our look. Most people seem to think that the  
>mechanics are pretty nice. 
> 
>>     My advice? If you choose to buy this game, don't use the system. 
>> Take the background and cull whatever you can from the character 
>> generation section and use another system. Like the Hero System, Fuzion, 
>> or even GURPS. 
> 
>        My advice is to read a few unbiased reviews before deciding.  
>Since neither Darrin nor I can really provide that, check out this  
>month's Pyramid and Shadis or look at the reviews of this "contorversial" 
>game at www.rpg.net. 
>        If you DO choose to buy it only for source material, please drop 
>me a line and tell me what you didn't like about the mechanics: I'm  
>always happy to hear it. 
> 
>Thanks to Eric and Daniel Pawtowski for passing this along. 
>--  
>This is a .sig proxy. 
>jsciv@bev.net 
>*--Joe--* 
>Author, The Babylon Project 
> 
 
 
From ???@??? Wed Jun 04 20:12:32 1997 
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