Week Ending July 5, 1997
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From: Bryan Feir <jenora@istar.ca>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:36:44 -0400 (EDT)
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Subject: Re: Internet-based RPGs
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On 28 Jun 1997, Darrin Kelley wrote:
> After reading through a copy of the Official Netscape Gold 3.0 Book,
> I got an idea. To use Cool Talk conferencing software to run roleplaying
> games over the Internet. Which would give, relatively, the same effect
> as running a game face to face. And in some cases better. Because
> character pictures, battlefield maps, and a variety of other campaign
> related materials could be broadcast simultaneously to all of the
> players from the GM with a simple push of a button. Which could make the
> GM's job considerably easier. (Although handling die rolling conventions
> definately will have to be something I still have to figure out.)
So use a MUD instead. There are a number of social based MUDs, and
it's easy enough to add a dice-rolling program to a TinyMUCK or TinyMUSH
server so you can do whatever you want on it.
---------------------------+---------------------------------------------------
Bryan Feir VA3GBF|"Advertising may be described as the science of
bryan@sgl.ists.ca | arresting human intelligence long enough to get
jenora@istar.ca | money from it." -- Stephen Leacock
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Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:47:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bryan Feir <jenora@istar.ca>
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Subject: RE: More Than Meets The Eye
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On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, Earl Kwallek wrote:
> Implying very heavily that one CAN add points. UGH! I can just see a
> player with
> "Transform my ally/self into GODLIKE superbeing". Obviously no sane GM
> would allow such a thing, but the concept would be valid if this is
> allowable...
Hmm... one thought. A possible solution to this is that instead of
not being able to add any points to the character, limit the number of
points you can add to the maximum possible roll on the Transform dice, and
treat the transform dice sort of like Aid for that case.
The nice thing about this is that it gives a good reason to have a
large number of dice in Transform even for a cumulative transform.
---------------------------+---------------------------------------------------
Bryan Feir VA3GBF|"This Santa Claus business is played out. It's a
bryan@sgl.ists.ca | sneaking, underhand method, and the sooner it's
jenora@istar.ca | exposed the better." -- Stephen Leacock
---------------------------+---------------------------------------------------
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Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 01:34:47 -0400
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@mars.superlink.net>
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 12:22 AM 6/28/97 -0400, Firelynx16@aol.com wrote:
> [...] I don't really like the idea of a wildcard power, though, [....]
> I gather there is no dispute that shuffling or decreasing CP's is fair
> game, it's just these special cases that are controversial. So the
> only question that remains is under what circumstances can you add
> CP's to an object, creature, or person?
The whole point of Transform is that it allows you to do anything. It
makes the Hero system more complete than any other generic system
commercially available.
> For instance, I'd bet dollars to donuts that almost everyone here would
> agree that if Animation Lad had the transformation ability of "transforms
> stone statue of a person into a person" [...]
Yes. 5d6 Major Transform, humanoid stone statue into living breathing
humanoid. The person he created would always have the exact same stats:
the Venus de Milo would have arms, Michaelangelos' David would not be 16'
tall. Transform as descibed in the BBB always turns it's target into one
other specific thing (described when the power is created). The BBB
describes a +1 advantage where anything can be turned into one specific
thing. Most GMs extrapolate the +1 advantage where one specific thing can
be turned into anything (or a limited group of things) but this is not in
the book.
Yes. Transform can create life where it did not exist before. (*)
> [...] he could reverse a transform
> done by Medusa Maid, after she turns Lightning Lass into stone, and
> Lightning Lass would regain all of her powers, talents, etc.
No. This is Dispel. Transform Metarule #1, never duplicate a power that
already exists in the BBB.
(*) and that life can be dispelled.
> But
> what happens if AL tries his power on a statue that was never a person?
See above.
> What if he sculpts a statue of Lightning Lass and uses his transform
> on it? Does the statue become a mental and physical duplicate of
> Lightning Lass,
In my example, if his power creates Lightning Lasses from ordinary statues
then this is what happens. Otherwise he just get a being as described above.
> or does the statue become a lifeless and mindless
> corpse with a 12 BODY, a 4 for PD and ED, and 0 everything else (the
> same as the stone statue)?
This could, of course, be the result of Animation Lad's transform, but he
would not be a very well named character. :-)
> Of course, AL could use a linked Aid (+2 affects all) (+<big number>
> wears off very slow), but where should the baseline be? What do you get
> by default in a transform?
Anything the GM allows. That is what prevents the players from creating
Any Power Dude. Player 1: "APD, I need flight quick." Player 2: "Okay,
I'll just transform you into yourself with 50" of flight." GM: "I don't
think so."
> Sorry to be such a pest... ;-)
No, these are the fun questions.
X-Sender: why@mars.superlink.net (Unverified)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 02:18:31 -0400
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@mars.superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Level playing field for mentalists
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At 03:21 AM 6/28/97 -0800, Mike Lehmann wrote:
>Using Mental Defense as a standard stat (like PD and ED, at EGO/5), and
>having the Mental Powers work directly against MD instead of EGO + MD.
>ECV is still determined the same. IMO, it increases the effectiveness of
>mental powers without requiring any major changes.
I like this. I was going to suggest making all of the mental powers based
on 4 points per die because it came out kind of balanced in 60 point max
active pt games. (12d6 EB vs 15d6 mind control) I haven't tried this yet.
But using Mental Defense as a stat without base EGO might scale better.
Hmm.... (* normal-Ego:10, hero-Ego: 20)
AP ---dice/Avg roll/gets thru normal/gt hero*----------
cost 5pt MC vs EGO 4pt MC vs EGO 5pt MC vs MD only
20 4d6/14/12/ 0 5d6/17/ 5/ 0 4d6/14/12/10
40 8d6/28/26/ 8 10d6/35/25/15 8d6/28/26/24
60 12d6/42/40/22 15d6/52/42/32 12d6/42/40/38
80 16d6/56/54/36 20d6/70/60/50 16d6/56/54/52
100 20d6/70/68/50 25d6/87/85/67 20d6/70/68/64
200 40d6/140/138/120 50d6/175/173/155 20d6/140/138/136
Okay, let's look: the MC vs MD only gets a 10 point effect against a 20 EGO
with only 4d6, 20 point effect at around 7d6. This implies that every hero
must increase their Mental Defense or suffer from 40 AP attacks. Which is
the same this that would to a character with 20 Con who did not increase
his ED. Looking at my chart, I'm still confused. The 4pt variant seems to
balance better in the 50-70 point range. But since it scales faster (+17.5
avg/20 AP instead of +14/20), in the 100+ point range it makes mental
powers the preferred powers. (How similar is 155 to 136 on that last
line?) Of course, my table does not consider what the average EGO or ED is
when playing at comparable power levels. Usually average ED climb faster
than average EGO. YMMV.
Well, it's 2am and I think I'm becoming to incoherent to continue. Someone
else comment please.
Joe
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 02:57:39 -0500
From: Joel Vallejo <jvallejo@bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: jvallejo@bellsouth.net
Subject: Re: Internet-based RPGs
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Darrin Kelley wrote:
>
> After reading through a copy of the Official Netscape Gold 3.0 Book,
> I got an idea. To use Cool Talk conferencing software to run roleplaying
> games over the Internet. Which would give, relatively, the same effect
> as running a game face to face. And in some cases better. Because
> character pictures, battlefield maps, and a variety of other campaign
> related materials could be broadcast simultaneously to all of the
> players from the GM with a simple push of a button. Which could make the
> GM's job considerably easier. (Although handling die rolling conventions
> definately will have to be something I still have to figure out.)
>
> If someone does know the information I am seeking, please let me
> know. It will be greatly appreciated.
> ___
I've never used Cool Talk, but if it is similar to various chat
utilities, like IRC or Mirabilis, you will probably run into the biggest
problems facing on-line games, LAG! In theory, your idea is pretty
good, but have you considered a PBEM with your friends?
Just a suggestion.
Joel Vallejo
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Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 08:28:21 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:34 AM 6/29/97 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>The whole point of Transform is that it allows you to do anything. It
>makes the Hero system more complete than any other generic system
>commercially available.
Well, as I've said before, anything that fits the paradigm of a
semi-permanent change inflicted on a target.
>tall. Transform as descibed in the BBB always turns it's target into one
>other specific thing (described when the power is created). The BBB
>describes a +1 advantage where anything can be turned into one specific
>thing. Most GMs extrapolate the +1 advantage where one specific thing can
>be turned into anything (or a limited group of things) but this is not in
>the book.
Backwards. The advantage (which actually ranges from +1/4 to +1) expand the
RESULT, not the possible targets. GMs would be extrapolating advantages to
modify the TARGETS, not the result.
>Yes. Transform can create life where it did not exist before. (*)
IF THE GM ALLOWS IT. Transform may be the most potentially flexible power
in the game, but it's also the only one with an automatic, all-the-time
"must have GM's permission" regardless of how or where you bought it.
>> [...] he could reverse a transform
>> done by Medusa Maid, after she turns Lightning Lass into stone, and
>> Lightning Lass would regain all of her powers, talents, etc.
>
>No. This is Dispel. Transform Metarule #1, never duplicate a power that
>already exists in the BBB.
A Dispel is more "proper", but the Transform would work. However, if you
use the Transform to change back, remember it's still a *semi-permanent*
change. If the original transformation has an all-or-nothing reversal (say,
"kill Medusa Maid"), then the Transform back to human will eventually wear
off, returning Lightning Lass into her Statue form!
>In my example, if his power creates Lightning Lasses from ordinary statues
>then this is what happens. Otherwise he just get a being as described above.
Also, it depends on the special effect of the Transform. (What doesn't?)
Depending on that, he might get an exact "clone" of LL complete with powers
and memories, a physical duplicate of LL with her CHAR but not her
non-visible powers, or a 0-pt. normal that just looks exactly like LL.
>Anything the GM allows. That is what prevents the players from creating
>Any Power Dude. Player 1: "APD, I need flight quick." Player 2: "Okay,
>I'll just transform you into yourself with 50" of flight." GM: "I don't
>think so."
Of course, if it's that easy for Player 2 to transform his teammates, then
it's just as easy for Chemax the Element Man to transform said teammates --
say, into boiling acid which drops on Player 2's character. ;]
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely. |
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Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 10:08:01 -0400 (EDT)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
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>Yes. 5d6 Major Transform, humanoid stone statue into living breathing
>humanoid. The person he created would always have the exact same stats:
>the Venus de Milo would have arms, Michaelangelos' David would not be 16'
>tall. Transform as descibed in the BBB always turns it's target into one
>other specific thing (described when the power is created). The BBB
>describes a +1 advantage where anything can be turned into one specific
>thing. Most GMs extrapolate the +1 advantage where one specific thing can
>be turned into anything (or a limited group of things) but this is not in
>the book.
You obviously haven't read the BBB. I'll pull a quotation from BBB pg. 88:
"Transform can usually only be used to change a specific type of target into
a certain type of object; this must be specified when the Power is
purchased. Thus a character could transform any opponant into a toad, but
couldn't Transform him into a cat. For a +1/4 Power Advantage, a character
can transform his target into a limited class of objects (animals, food
types, household appliances). To be able to Transform a target into anything
is a +1 Power Advantage."
In BOTH cases it clearly states that the _target_ is the thing being
Transformed into either a specific class of objects or anything. Nowhere
does it imply that the advantage is applying to a 'limited class of targets'
or 'any target'. In fact, the second sentance ('any opponant') would seem to
indicate that the definition of 'target' is pretty broad - though earlier it
states:
"For example, a character could transform an opponant into a toad. The
target would be 'people' and the result 'toads'."
Mind you, 'people' is a pretty broad definition as well. In a fantasy or
superheroic campaign, I guess 'people' would mean any sentient race that has
formed some sort of civilisation. I'd further guess that the 'classes' of
targets would probably be:
People
Animals
Plants
Objects
Elements (air, water, earth, etc.)
Energy (maybe - difficult mechanic to judge)
Anyway, the 'target' category for transforms is inherently broad already -
compare with shapeshift, which must choose a specifice shape at the base
level, but at the +10 level it can choose a 'category' (people, animals,
plants, etc.).
For additional targets for a transform, I'd suggest a +1/4 advantage per
additional category of targets.
>Yes. Transform can create life where it did not exist before. (*)
>
>> [...] he could reverse a transform
>> done by Medusa Maid, after she turns Lightning Lass into stone, and
>> Lightning Lass would regain all of her powers, talents, etc.
>
>No. This is Dispel. Transform Metarule #1, never duplicate a power that
>already exists in the BBB.
Ah, but Transform can duplicate the effects of another power. If I Transform
Eagle Girl into a woman without wings, I've effectively Dispelled her Flight
power - yet I shouldn't have to apply a Dispel in this case. Transform is
more powerful than that (and a hell of a lot more expensive than Dispel).
One Transform undoing another is perfectly legal, as long as the SFX are
followed appropriately.
>> or does the statue become a lifeless and mindless
>> corpse with a 12 BODY, a 4 for PD and ED, and 0 everything else (the
>> same as the stone statue)?
>
>This could, of course, be the result of Animation Lad's transform, but he
>would not be a very well named character. :-)
Sounds to me like Animation Lad needs to buy a Summon rather than a
Transform. Personally, I don't think Transform should create life where none
existed before (it could restore life in some circumstances, like the above
Lighting Lass predicament). That's what Summon is for.
Just remember that Transform shouldn't be a license to 'add points' in a
wholesale fashion. If Mysterium Transforms the other PCs so that they can
breathe water (necessary for the Atlantean adventure), that's fine, so long
as it's a once-in-a-campaign thing. If he wants to repeatedly do that, he
should buy LS: Breathe Underwater, UBO - that or the PCs should cough up the
5 points and buy the power themselves (SFX a 'permenant' magical
transformation).
Essentially, as long as the Transform stays fresh and new, and is mostly an
offensive power rather than a 'grab bag of things for the PCs', there
shouldn't be too many problems with the +1 advantage level. It's expensive
enough that its usefulness as a combat tool is restricted anyway, and you
could achieve more with a VPP in most cases on the same points (A 2D6 Major
Transform, Cumulative, Anything is 75 points - compare with a 50 point VPP,
or 40 point VPP with a good VPP Changing skill).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone
else's house?"
-NHS #56
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 10:08:07 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Internet-based RPGs
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>I've never used Cool Talk, but if it is similar to various chat
>utilities, like IRC or Mirabilis, you will probably run into the biggest
>problems facing on-line games, LAG! In theory, your idea is pretty
>good, but have you considered a PBEM with your friends?
I'm currently involved in a Heavy Gear RPG campaign via IRC, and lag is
definitely something to consider. I'd say that it takes, on average, three
times as long to do anything. So a 3 hour session is equivalent to 1 hour of
solid roleplaying. BUT I'll point out that this lag does allow you to think
ahead and provides more consistant playing (IMHO). Though there is a loss of
physical nuance you get with 'live' roleplaying, it's a whole lot easier to
remember that the thin guy in the group is actually playing a roly-poly
supply sergeant. And kibbitzing is less likely (well, out of context
kibbitzing). Talking secretly to the GM or other players is easier as well.
Basically, I'd say that IRC offers roleplaying that is more solid (unless
you've got a really good live group) in exchange for the extra time
required. It's a fair tradeoff, and far better than a PBEM game for speed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone
else's house?"
-NHS #56
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 11:35:25 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
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On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> The whole point of Transform is that it allows you to do anything.
What are all those other powers doing in the book, then?:)
> It makes the Hero system more complete than any other generic system
> commercially available.
The "buy the effect, not the special effect" mentality is what does this.
A completely unlimited Transform is hardly necessary.
> Transform as descibed in the BBB always turns it's target into one
> other specific thing (described when the power is created). The BBB
> describes a +1 advantage where anything can be turned into one specific
> thing. Most GMs extrapolate the +1 advantage where one specific thing can
> be turned into anything (or a limited group of things) but this is not in
> the book.
You have this backwards. Check BBB page 88, the paragraph right after the
example.
> Yes. Transform can create life where it did not exist before. (*)
No, because of...
> > [...] he could reverse a transform
> > done by Medusa Maid, after she turns Lightning Lass into stone, and
> > Lightning Lass would regain all of her powers, talents, etc.
>
> No. This is Dispel. Transform Metarule #1, never duplicate a power that
> already exists in the BBB.
...this "rule". Summon creates life where it did not exist before; letting
Transform do so would therefore be stepping on Summon's toes.
Incidentally, no matter how his basic power is bought, it would still be
enough to reverse Medusa Maid's power; this is "creative use of special
effects". Unless stoning attacks are unusually common in this campaign, in
which case he'd have to buy the Dispel.
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 11:47:31 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, Eric Burns wrote:
> I'm inclined to agree with Dave that, at least in general, a Transform
> should not add CP's, only transfer and decrease them. Maybe there
> could be exceptions in special cases. For instance, how about
> a transform that cures blindness?
Might use Transform or Aid; I'd have to think about it.
> Or a transform that reverses a transform?
Well, if all you want is to reverse Transforms, you want Dispel.
> Or a transform that reverses the aging process?
Probably do this as a cosmetic or minor Transform, with a linked Aid to
increase any stats reduced by aging.
> For instance, I'd bet dollars to donuts that almost everyone here would
> agree that if Animation Lad had the transformation ability of "transforms
> stone statue of a person into a person" he could reverse a transform
> done by Medusa Maid,
I wouldn't allow that as a Transform... it's a textbook Summon.
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: RE: More Than Meets The Eye
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 12:07:26 -0400 (EDT)
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> Hmm... one thought. A possible solution to this is that instead of
> not being able to add any points to the character, limit the number of
> points you can add to the maximum possible roll on the Transform dice, and
> treat the transform dice sort of like Aid for that case.
>
> The nice thing about this is that it gives a good reason to have a
> large number of dice in Transform even for a cumulative transform.
>
I really like this idea, it seems the best solution.
-Eric
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 13:47:26 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
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Subject: RE: More Than Meets The Eye
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On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Bryan Berggren wrote:
> >All Powers require GM approval; explicitly stating this doesn't change
> >anything. If it specifically said that Transforms which increase point
> >totals weren't allowed without GM's permission, that would be fine (since
> >it's generally recognized that "only with GM's permission" is BBB-speak
> >for "NO"), but flagging the Power as a whole doesn't help the GM
> >identify wonky constructs.
>
> If "only with GM's permission" means "No", that would mean Transform is
> inherently illegal, yes?
Yes, which is why I ignore that statement regarding Transform.
> Sort of a waste of paper putting it in and all,
> then. :/ Forgive me if I challenge the conventional wisdom by declaring
> that "only with GM's permission" means it would only be allowed after the GM
> looks at it and permits it to enter his game. (Ooh, rebel me).
This is true of anything you put on a character sheet; if this were all
"only with GM's permission" meant, than _it_ would be a waste of paper.
> >Transform linked to Aid or Transform linked to Summon handle these sort of
> >things just fine.
>
> IMO, Transform alone handles it just fine, too, and has the added advantage
> of being the way the rules tell you to do it. ;]
Transform alone doesn't handle it well at all, IMO. It's true that a
Transform-to-super type power might be costed right, but if so, it's
strictly coincidental.:) You mention transforming into a Stokerian vampire
as a possible use for Transform; contrast this with the ability to
transform people into "scientific vampires" a la Morbius, with
comparable abilities but fewer drawbacks; or something like the Seven
Horsemen's Worm Staff, which transforms people into avatars of Death,
Destruction and the like. These are all valid concepts, and are clearly
at different levels of power, but if you use a straight Transform to
handle them they all have the exact same cost. Which is costed correctly,
then, and which are under- or over-powered?
OTOH, if you use a linked Aid or Summon, you have a means of
differentiating the point cost, which IMO only makes sense.
> > The problem with "Transform as Aid" is that Transform's cost is based on
> > RKA. Thus, when you buy a major Transform you've paid for the ability to
> > completely disable your target if you want; however, nothing in the cost
> > of Transform reflects the usefulness of the resulting object, so another
> > mechanic should be added for this.
>
> Hasn't someone already pointed out that Transform is generally less
> effective than an RKA?
That's sort of beside the point, but I don't agree. It depends on the
circumstances.
> To be more accurate, it's based off the cost of an RKA big enough to waste
> someone in one shot. A 3d6+1 RKA is a scary weapon which will leave the
> average person bleeding in the dirt, dead without medical attention in a
> couple minutes. A 3d6+1 Major Transform is USELESS against the average
> person (maximum roll of 19, not good enough). I chose this value because
> 50 points is described in the Designer's Notes as "pretty good". If a
> "pretty good" Transform is useless ...?
I'll grant that non-cumulative Transforms are sub-optimal as an attack
power, but one poor application does not a useless Power make. The ability
to generate 5 BODY of base substance out of nowhere is not useless. A 2D6
cumulative Major Transform is not useless; with the ability to completely
disable most opponents with 3-4 shots, it's arguably more effective than
the more expensive 3D6+1 RKA, given that resistant defenses are almost
always going to be much more common than Power Defense.
> Also, note that one of their examples for a MINOR transform (dagger into
> sword) implies a point shift of (at least) +5.
Again, it's clear that by-the-book there's no prohibition of
point-increasing Transforms. This just happens to be a flaw in the book.
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Re: Level playing field for mentalists
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 13:30:36 -0400 (EDT)
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>
> Well, it's 2am and I think I'm becoming to incoherent to continue. Someone
> else comment please.
> Joe
>
Cool.
Anyway, this whole psionics discussion has got me thinking. Exactly how
broad are these snazzy psychic powers anyway? More specifically...
Mind Control: How complex of an instruction can you give to someone? For
instance could you tell someone to go to room 212b at the Acme Hotel and
attack the first person who enters that is wearing a Yankees hat? Could
you order someone to bark like a dog whenever he/she hears the word
"today"? Can you alter someone's beliefs? For instance, could you order
someone to think that he/she is a duck? or the president? or that he/she
is in love with X (whoever X is)? Can you order someone to "obey all my
commands!"?
Telepathy: Can you use telepathy to spy on what someone is doing? Can
you use telepathy to imitate the effects of clairsentience (by asking the
question "what are you sensing?" over and over (this would allow you to
benefit from all of your target's special and enhanced senses through a
mind scan without having to pay huge amounts of CP for a kitchen sink
clairsentience with a huge range, combined with a bunch of conditional
enhanced senses)?
Mental Images: Can you make images that rely on knowledge that you don't
have, but the subject does? For instance, can you make Captain
Responsible think that Doctor Unpleasant looks like his father, even if
you don't know what CR's father looks like? Can you make something or
someone invisible to CR?
I think that if the answer to some of these questions is "yes", then
psionic-types are already pretty balanced, due to the versitility that
bricks and energy projectors and such lack.
-Eric
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 14:56:05 -0400 (EDT)
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> > Or a transform that reverses a transform?
>
> Well, if all you want is to reverse Transforms, you want Dispel.
>
Really? I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that Dispel
could not reverse the effects of an instant power. Since Transform
is instant, you could prevent it from taking place, but once it's
happened you could no more reverse it than you could dispel the effects
of a knife wound or the burns caused by an EB. Am I missing something?
> > For instance, I'd bet dollars to donuts that almost everyone here would
> > agree that if Animation Lad had the transformation ability of "transforms
> > stone statue of a person into a person" he could reverse a transform
> > done by Medusa Maid,
>
> I wouldn't allow that as a Transform... it's a textbook Summon.
>
Erm, the textbook says that summon can not be used to summon someone
specific, so you could summon "a young superheroine" but not
"Lightning Lass" specifically.
Animation Lad: "Gee, Lightning Lass, you've certainly been acting funny
since I've turned you back from stone."
Lightning Lass (?): "?Que? Por favor, no me hablo ingles. ?Quien es
usted? Me llamo es !Muchacha Metalica!"
-Eric
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 15:00:06 -0400
From: Dave Thompson <ezadd@bconnex.net>
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unsubscribe
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Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 15:15:43 -0400
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@mars.superlink.net>
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
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This post responds to like four posts with this topic.
At 10:08 AM 6/29/97 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>I wrote (unattributed)
>>Yes. Transform can create life where it did not exist before. (*)
>>
>>No. This is Dispel. Transform Metarule #1, never duplicate a power that
>>already exists in the BBB.
>
>Ah, but Transform can duplicate the effects of another power. If I Transform
>Eagle Girl into a woman without wings, I've effectively Dispelled her Flight
Actually, you've removed her Flight, as with Drain. So why not use Drain?
If you want to pull the wings off of flies, it is better to Suppress or
Drain its flight. (It's certainly cheaper...)
>Just remember that Transform shouldn't be a license to 'add points' in a
>wholesale fashion.
Yes, it should. It can do anything. The GM would have to a little nuts to
allow any transforms like this, but that doesn't mean you should remove the
ability from Transform.
>If Mysterium Transforms the other PCs so that they can
>breathe water (necessary for the Atlantean adventure), that's fine, so long
>as it's a once-in-a-campaign thing. If he wants to repeatedly do that, he
>should buy LS: Breathe Underwater, UBO - that or the PCs should cough up the
>5 points and buy the power themselves (SFX a 'permenant' magical
>transformation).
I would only allow this with the LS: breathe water, using the Usable On
Others variant in the System Almanac #1. The problem with transforming the
PCs is that if the Transform is defined as a healable transform, the PC
with 6 BODY/turn regeneration is going to drown a few minutes after he hits
the water. Usable On Others prevents this.
On 29 Jun 1997 11:47:31, Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, Eric Burns wrote:
>> For instance, I'd bet dollars to donuts that almost everyone here would
>> agree that if Animation Lad had the transformation ability of "transforms
>> stone statue of a person into a person" he could reverse a transform
>> done by Medusa Maid,
>
>I wouldn't allow that as a Transform... it's a textbook Summon.
So what happens to the original Statue? Summon special effects can
disintegrate 10-15 BODY worth of stone? Or is there a liked RKA in there?
Also, Summon cannot be used to summon specific beings (such as the victim
of Medusa Maid's transform). Besides, the MM's victim is now a statue.
Summon can be used to heal people? Can I have this power: Summon, my
friends healthy and hale, max 250 active points, 80 AP cost?
On 29 Jun 1997 11:47:31, Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, I wrote:
>> The whole point of Transform is that it allows you to do anything.
>What are all those other powers doing in the book, then?:)
Structure maybe? Great new RPG. Only one power. Do Anything. It's
simple, it's easy. :-)
>> Most GMs extrapolate the +1 advantage where one specific thing can
>> be turned into anything (or a limited group of things) but this is not in
>> the book.
>You have this backwards. Check BBB page 88, the paragraph right after the
>example.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. Do you know how many private email I received
with that little tidbit? :-)
>Incidentally, no matter how his basic power is bought, it would still be
>enough to reverse Medusa Maid's power; this is "creative use of special
>effects". Unless stoning attacks are unusually common in this campaign, in
>which case he'd have to buy the Dispel.
Someone else pointed out that there is a problem if MM's power does not
heal but requires a specific set of circumstances to reverse and your
transform heals normally, what happens when yours heals, does MM's return?
I think the Dispel is the only proper way to eliminate the Transform
outside of the normal ways to do it.
On Sun, 29 Jun 1997 13:47:26, Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> wrote:
>[examples deleted] These are all valid concepts, and are clearly
>at different levels of power, but if you use a straight Transform to
>handle them they all have the exact same cost. Which is costed correctly,
>then, and which are under- or over-powered?
A gray area, admittedly, but some of those powers can be simulated with
Usable On Others/UAO. I would still leave "allow" all of these to have the
same costs. You could just as easily turn them to stone, which is the same
as a 200+ point drain. (Base 0 point characters have approximately 140-150
points in stats, running, senses, etc.)
>Again, it's clear that by-the-book there's no prohibition of
>point-increasing Transforms. This just happens to be a flaw in the book.
Ah, now I understand. I see it as a feature in the book. YMMV.
Joe
(I think some of this sounded snippy, if it did, I apologize now.)
X-Sender: why@mars.superlink.net
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 15:36:24 -0400
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@mars.superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Level playing field for mentalists
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At 01:30 PM 6/29/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote:
>> Well, it's 2am and I think I'm becoming to incoherent to continue. Someone
>> else comment please.
>> Joe
>Cool.
You're pleased/amused by my incoherence? Okay.
>Anyway, this whole psionics discussion has got me thinking. Exactly how
>broad are these snazzy psychic powers anyway? More specifically...
This is going to be an interesting laundary list when more than one person
answers:
>Mind Control: How complex of an instruction can you give to someone?
Depends on their INT.
> For
>instance could you tell someone to go to room 212b at the Acme Hotel and
>attack the first person who enters that is wearing a Yankees hat?
Easily, 20 point level for a combattive person (or even 10pts for someone
who dislikes Yankees fans). 30pts for a pacifist type person.
> Could
>you order someone to bark like a dog whenever he/she hears the word
>"today"?
Another +20pt effect. The person will bark until they make the EGO roll to
break out of the MC. (+30 points for stoic, no fun, would howl at the moon
types :-)
> Can you alter someone's beliefs?
+30 pt effect. I assume these alterations would be things the victim is
violently opposed to.
> For instance, could you order
>someone to think that he/she is a duck?
+30 pt effect
> or the president?
Only +20 for megalomanics.
> or that he/she is in love with X (whoever X is)?
+20 to +30 depending on the persons current love life, opinions of
fidelity, who X is, etc.
> Can you order someone to "obey all my commands!"?
+30 pt effect with a stop sign. I wouldn't allow this unless there were
heavy limitations on the word "all".
>Telepathy: Can you use telepathy to spy on what someone is doing?
I would say yes at +0. Of course, the person, sensing you could just close
their eyes. This would be more effective with invisible power effects.
> Can you use telepathy to imitate the effects of clairsentience ...
Same as above.
>Mental Images: Can you make images that rely on knowledge that you don't
>have, but the subject does? For instance, can you make Captain
>Responsible think that Doctor Unpleasant looks like his father, even if
>you don't know what CR's father looks like?
Of course, you can +10 or +20 effect. The problem is if CR's father is
unlikely to be in the area, you need the +20 effect.
> Can you make something or someone invisible to CR?
This is a +20 effect. +30 if the something is Godzilla destroying the city.
>I think that if the answer to some of these questions is "yes", then
>psionic-types are already pretty balanced, due to the versitility that
>bricks and energy projectors and such lack.
You'll notice I said "Yes" to all of them. The reason I wanted to change
the point total is because I like the idea of having these powers be more
effective in combat. That's just me.
Joe
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
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>>>>> "TB" == Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> writes:
>> could be exceptions in special cases. For instance, how about
>> a transform that cures blindness?
TB> Might use Transform or Aid; I'd have to think about it.
It depends on how the "blindness" occoured, but for the most part it would
be a special effect deal no matter how it is done. If blindness is
"natural" -- a disadvantage on the character sheet -- then the game
mechanic cure is to buy off the disadvantage. If blindness is due to a
Transformation then the cure is defined by the Transformation's reversal
requirements.
>> Or a transform that reverses a transform?
TB> Well, if all you want is to reverse Transforms, you want Dispel.
Yup.
>> Or a transform that reverses the aging process?
TB> Probably do this as a cosmetic or minor Transform, with a linked Aid to
TB> increase any stats reduced by aging.
If it is a permanant reversal then the recipient needs to buy Life Support:
Immune to Aging to stop the aging process. If he then buys off the Age
disadvantage he will "revert" to a younger physique.
Using Transformation to counter disadvantages seems rather cheesy to me,
though, no matter how I look at it.
>> For instance, I'd bet dollars to donuts that almost everyone here would
>> agree that if Animation Lad had the transformation ability of
>> "transforms stone statue of a person into a person" he could reverse a
>> transform done by Medusa Maid,
TB> I wouldn't allow that as a Transform... it's a textbook Summon.
Ditto.
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 17:10:59 -0400 (EDT)
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Let me apologize in advance. This is a tricky one...
Okay, here's another tricky cunundrum associated with transform. Let's
say that after Animation Lad rescues Lightning Lass from her career as a
paperweight, Medusa Maid asks her uncle, Doctor Stephen Normal, for help.
Now the Doctor has the ability to transform anything into anything. After
tracking down Lightning Lass, he attacks her with his mystical powers.
But, since Doc Normal is less bloodthirsty than his neice, he decides to
only capture her instead. So using his transformation abilities, he
transforms Lightning Lass' costume into titanium. Since LL's costume
covers her from the neck down, she finds herself unable to even wiggle her
fingers. Fortunately Lightning Lad happens by, and saves his sister by
zapping Doc Normal unconscious (we gotta have a happy ending now, don't
we?...).
So I guess the basic question is can you duplicate the effects of another
power (in this case Entanglement) with the clever use of transformation?
Or would doc normal have to buy a linked Entaglement? Maybe the CP value
of LL's costume could be converted into a 1 charge, NND, linked attack...
Another example would be Lava Lad, who can turn inanimate objects into
lava. Needless to say, this has a huge potential for abuse without the
proper restraints.
-Eric
X-Sender: why@mars.superlink.net
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 17:23:58 -0400
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@mars.superlink.net>
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
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At 02:56 PM 6/29/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote:
>> > Or a transform that reverses a transform?
>> Well, if all you want is to reverse Transforms, you want Dispel.
>Really? I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that Dispel
>could not reverse the effects of an instant power. Since Transform
>is instant, you could prevent it from taking place, but once it's
>happened you could no more reverse it than you could dispel the effects
>of a knife wound or the burns caused by an EB. Am I missing something?
Okay, since a bunch of people have made this comment, I'll explain it.
Here is a why Dispel can be used on some Instant powers. Transform creates
a continuing effect "You are not what you once were". This effect can be
reversed either by healing the BODY lost or by some circumstance coming to
pass, as described in the power description when the power is created. The
Dispel targets the continuing effect, not the original Transform. How
would the princess kissing the frog release the prince if there was not a
continuing effect involved?
There are several instant powers that create continuing effects: Mind
Control, Mental Illusions, Mind Scan, Telepathy, Entangle, Flash, and
Summon. A dispel could be created to free MC victims by targetting the
mind control effect which was created days ago. Entangle creates a
describable continuing effect:
2d6 Entangle = 20 TK 0 END(+1/2), Persistent(+1/2), Continuous(+1),
Uncontrolled(+1/2), Affects all parts(-1/4), Only roll effect dice
once(-1/4), Power losses 5 points of STR for each one BODY rolled by victim
which is greater than 2(-1), Power is dispelled at 0 STR(-0). Let's see
did I get everything? That's 105 AP, 42 real, created by a 20 AP power,
uses only 2 END. Pretty impressive. Of course, the reason Entangle is a
power is so that all of the variations of Entangle (blocks a sense, takes
no damage, etc) could be described. (I've always thought that Entangle is
under priced for how effective it is. Especially when combined with Area
of Effect or Explosion.)
Joe
(Damn, look at all these worms...)
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:45:28 +0000
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
Reply-To: filkhero@usa.net
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I['m still accidentally sending my replies to individuals, rather
than the group. Arrrggg. Here it is, a little delayed.
> At 12:22 AM 6/28/97 -0400, Firelynx16@aol.com wrote:
<snip>
> Transform as descibed in the BBB
> always turns it's target into one other specific thing (described
> when the power is created). The BBB describes a +1 advantage where
> anything can be turned into one specific thing. Most GMs
> extrapolate the +1 advantage where one specific thing can be turned
> into anything (or a limited group of things) but this is not in the
> book.
Sorry, you read this backwards. My copy of the BBB says the _target_
always remains the same, while advantages can make the _result_
different.
<snip>
>
> No. This is Dispel. Transform Metarule #1, never duplicate a power
> that already exists in the BBB.
>
> (*) and that life can be dispelled.
As Transformation is a Standard power, and Instant, this is not
correct. You cannot Dispel the results of Transformation, the
Transformation power is already off immediately after being used,
because it is instant. You can't dispel it any more than you can
dispel the Stun caused by an Energy Blast, or Dispel someone's INT or
STR back when it gets Drained.
The BBB specifies two ways to return a Transformed target to normal,
neither one is Drain.
Filksinger
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 19:34:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net,
Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> jdriscol@vt.edu,
Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com,
robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca,
Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com>
Subject: CHAR: Kid Dinosaur
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[yahoo! I've finished the last few Wild Cards adaptions!]
KID DINOSAUR
(Arnie Fentner)
Designers Notes:
Kid Dinosaur is a young boy of 14 years of age, who stands 5'2" and weighs
100 lbs. He's fairly average looking, with acne, brown hair and a visible
birthmark on his face. He has the ability to transform himself into *any*
dinosaur he can imagine. The only problem is that his mass stays the
same. Sure he can turn into a Tyrannosaurus, although he'll be about 3'
tall... He was a constant pest, who liked to hang around aces. This
resulted in his being present when Fortunato trashed the Astronomer's base
and thus was one of the first to die when the Astronomer took his revenge.
The Character:
STAT VAL COST
Str 8 -2
Dex 10 0
Con 10 0
Body 10 0
Int 18 8
Ego 11 2
Pre 11 1
Com 10 0
PD 2 0
ED 2 0
Spd 2 0
Rec 4 0
End 20 0
Stun 19 0
Char Total 9
Power Total 110
Total Cost 119
COST POWERS & SKILLS
50 50 Point Variable Power Pool: Dinosaur form powers
50 VPP Control Cost: No Skill Roll Needed, 0 Phase to Change Powers,
Limited Special Effects (-1/2)
25 Shape Shift: Any dinosaur form, 1/2 END, 1 END
3 KS: Aces 14-
3 KS: Comic Books 14-
3 KS: Dinosaurs 14-
1 SC: Paleontology 8-
Disadvantages
75 Base
15 Hunted: The Astronomer (MoPow) 8-
5 Phys: Youth (he's only 14)
10 Psych: The Overconfidence of Youth
14 Experience
(Kid Dinosaur created by Lewis Shiner, character sheet created by Michael
Surbrook)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 19:37:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net,
Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> jdriscol@vt.edu,
Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com,
robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca,
Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com>
Subject: CHAR: Puppetman
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[Mr. Evil Slimeball Himself...]
PUPPETMAN
(Greg Hartmann)
Designers Notes:
Puppetman is plain looking man who stands 5'10" and weighs 170 lbs. He
has unremarkable features, a receding hair line and is a bit over weight.
Most people describe him as 'handsome' of 'compelling'. Currently he is
an influential senator, who stands for joker rights and other oppressed
minorities. He's considered to be good natured and openly friendly and
concerned to the plight of jokers everywhere. He's also unrelentingly
evil and sadistic...
Puppetman is a psychic vampire, who takes people as 'puppets' by shaking
their hand (or through other physical contact). Once he has achieved
contact he can than manipulate their emotional state to feed his sick
desires. He can cause people to like him (even love him) as well as
intensify anger and hatreds in order to start fights (or other acts of
violence). His range (after setting up his initial contact) is usually
fairly limited, although he could control someone in a house from the
sidewalk outside. He has used his puppets to kill before and won't
hesitate to do it again. As of Wild Cards Book 6 he was seeking the
Democratic nomination to the presidency.
The Character:
STAT VAL COST
Str 9 -1
Dex 10 0
Con 10 0
Body 9 -2
Int 20 10
Ego 15 10
Pre 18 8
Com 14 2
PD 2 0
ED 2 0
Spd 2 0
Rec 4 0
End 20 0
Stun 18 0
Char Total 27
Power Total 183
Total Cost 210
COST POWERS & SKILLS
96 15d6 Mind Control, Telepathic, Invisible (+1/2), Empathic control
only (-1/2),
Must first touch his target to set up control (-1/4), 0 END
17 Detect: Emotions, Sense, Ranged, Discriminatory 18-, Only works on
puppets
or people withing a few feet (-1/2)
5 Perk: US Senator
10 Perk: Wealth
3 Acting 13-
4 AK: USA 14-
4 AK: World 14-
3 Bureaucratics 13-
3 Conversation 13-
3 High Society 13-
4 KS: Law 14-
5 KS: Politics 15-
3 Oratory 13-
3 Persuasion 13-
2 PS: Lawyer 11-
2 PS: Senator 11-
6 SL: +2 with all PRE Skills
10 CSL: +5 with Mind Control
Disadvantages
100 Base
10 Psych: Bully, he takes great joy in tormenting his 'puppets'
20 Psych: Megalomaniac who desires all the power he can get
15 Psych: Sadistic, will kill for the pleasure it gives him
5 (15) Psych: Coward at heart who is afraid of discovery (and
unknown aces)
10 Public ID: Well known US Senator
15 SID: He is a vicious psychopathic psychic vampire
35 Experience
(Puppetman created by Stephen Leigh, character sheet created by Michael
Surbrook)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 19:39:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net,
Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> jdriscol@vt.edu,
Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com,
robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca,
Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com>
Subject: CHAR: George Steele
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
GEORGE STEELE
(Georgy Vladimirovich Polyakov)
Designers Notes:
George is short and stocky, standing 5'5" and weighing 160 lbs, with gray
eyes and gray hair. He is a former KGB agent and served as a military
political officer in World War II. He came to America in the late 80's to
avoid retirement and to catch up with Dr. Tachyon (and Tachyon's
grandson). George's wild card power is the ability to cause anything he
touches to suddenly burst into intense flame. It should be noted that
Stalin died (in 1953) by spontaneously combusting into flame...
The Character:
STAT VAL COST
Str 10 0
Dex 13 9
Con 13 6
Body 12 4
Int 15 5
Ego 20 20
Pre 13 3
Com 12 1
PD 3 1
ED 3 0
Spd 3 7
Rec 5 0
End 26 0
Stun 24 0
Char Total 56
Power Total 141
Total Cost 197
COST POWERS & SKILLS
91 2 1/2d6 RKA E, Penetrating, Uncontrolled, Continous, Invisible
Power Effects (+1/2, ), 0 END, No Range, No KB
5 Acting 13-
3 Criminology 12-
5 Interrogation 13-
5 Persuasion 13-
2 PS: KGBJAgent 11-
4 SC: Intelligence Analysis 14-
7 Shadowing 13-
5 Stealth 13-
2 WF: Small Arms
9 Lang: English (3), French (3), German (3), Russian (0)
3 SL: +1 with PREJskills
Disadvantages
100 Base
10 Age: 60+
20 Normal Characteristic Maxima
15 Psych: Devoted to the ideas of the Soviet Union
15 SID: Steele is a KGB agent
37 Experience
(George Steele created by Michael Cassutt, character sheet created by
Michael Surbrook)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 19:41:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Hero Character Adaption <catdrag@vnet.net&> champion@cyberhighway.net,
Champions Character List <deejay@cu-online.com&> jdriscol@vt.edu,
Rob Rutherford <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> sourdust@ix.netcom.com,
robertni@us.ibm.com, teriaca@omnifest.uwm.edu, vances@sympatico.ca,
Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com>
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
[This is it! The last Wild Cards adaption from the GURPS Wild Cards
sourcebook.]
THE WHISPERER
Designers Notes:
The Whisperer is 6'3" and 180 lbs. He is almost always dressed in dark
clothing and hat with face mask and leather gloves. He wears a surgical
mask under his regular mask. He always keeps his face hidden and no one
is really sure who he really looks like. The Whisperer is a sick man,
*very* sick. His body rages with just about every disease known to man,
meaning that the Whisperer is always ill and usually in constant pain. By
breathing (or coughing on someone) he an transmit this disease to others,
killing them in short order. He works as an assassin for the Shadow
Fists.
Power note: The Whisper's Drain works like this: he must breath on his
victim (since his target is usually not expecting this it shouldn't be a
problem). If he hits, the target takes a 4d6 Body Drain once an hour,
every hour for 1 day. If he lives (fat chance) then he will recover his
lost Body at 5 Active Points per week.
The Character:
STAT VAL COST
Str 9 -1
Dex 14 12
Con 25 30
Body 18 16
Int 15 5
Ego 15 10
Pre 10 0
Com 10 0
PD 5 3
ED 5 0
Spd 3 6
Rec 7 0
End 50 0
Stun 35 0
Char Total 82
Power Total 96
Total Cost 178
COST POWERS & SKILLS
34 Drain: 4d6 vs Body, Variable SFX: diseases (+1/4), Drain recovers
5 pts per Week (+1 3/4), Gradual Effect (every hour) (-2 1/2), 1
Continous charge of 1 Day (-0)
10 Damage Reduction: 1/4 Physical, Resistant, vs Stun Only (-1/2)
3 LS: Immune to disease
5 Perk: Wealth
3 Contact: Shadow Fist Society 12-
7 Interrogation 14-
5 SC: Medical Diagnosis 14-
5 SC: Intelligence Analysis 14-
7 Stealth 14-
7 Streetwise 14-
7 English (0), French (3), German (3), Spanish (3), Russian (2)
3 Linguist
Disadvantages
100 Base
10 DF: Constantly ill
10 Phys: Constantly ill
15 Phys: Addicted to pain killers
20 Psych: Addicted to pain killers
15 Psych: Casual killer
8 Experience
(The Whisperer created by George R R Martin, character sheet created by
Michael Surbrook)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 19:49:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Wild Cards Character List
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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I posted 68 Wild Cards character adptions (out of something like 80+
presented in the orginal GURPS book). The following list shows which ones
and how many points they ended up at. People who want a copy can get them
from Rob Rutherford's web site (uh... Rob? What's the URL?) Or, mail me
with a list of who you're missing and I'll try and send them out to you.
Astronomer, The 556
Bagabond 328
Barnett, Leo 150
Black Eagle 519
Bludgeon 129
Cpt. Trips 64
(Aquarius) 100
(Aquarius - Dolphin) 478
(Cosmic Traveler) 377
(Jumping Jack Flash) 715
(Moonchild) 450
(Starshine) 378
Carnifex 334
Chaisson Cordelia 201
Chickenhawk 52
Chysalis 124
Cyclone 302
Deadhead 24
Demise 346
Desmond, Xavier 41
Digger Downs 104
Dr. Tachyon 624
Dutton, Charles 64
Elephant Girl 92
(Elephant form) 341
Ellis, Angela 143
Envoy, The 224
Ezili-je-Rouge 121
Fadeout 210
Fantasy 143
Father Squid 178
Fortunato 481
Gimli 106
Golden Boy 309
Harlem Hammer, The 310
Howler, The 244
Jayewardene, JC 77
Jube the Walrus 143
Kant, Harvey 126
Kid Dinosaur 119
Kien Phuc 136
Lazy Dragon 230
Loophole 152
Mackie Messer 336
Modular Man 631
Oddity, The 199
Peregrine 196
Popinjay 447
Puppetman 210
Quasiman 200
Sewer Jack 75
(Alligator form) 179
Sleeper, The varies
Steele, George 197
Strauss, Jerimiah 141
Ti Malice 201
Travineck, Maxim 632
Troll 153
Turtle, The 349
(Shell) 172
Warlock 133
Water Lily 263
Whisperer 178
Worchester, Hiram 480
Wraith 232
Wyrm 285
Wyungare 170
Yeoman 335
Whew... I think I'm going to take a break for now... I do plan tro try
and get Devil Hunter Yohko and Sho Kosugi written up some time soon. I'm
also considering going back and finishing the cast of Mage and, possibly,
the cast of "Big Trouble in Little China"... heh...
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 29 Jun 1997 20:36:59 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "EB" == Eric Burns <burns@usmcug.usm.maine.edu> writes:
EB> So using his transformation abilities, he transforms Lightning Lass'
EB> costume into titanium. Since LL's costume covers her from the neck
EB> down, she finds herself unable to even wiggle her fingers.
The effect is a transformation, but the power is probably Entangle.
[...]
EB> So I guess the basic question is can you duplicate the effects of
EB> another power (in this case Entanglement) with the clever use of
EB> transformation?
In short, no.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
\ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 20:00:42 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
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At 11:35 AM 6/29/97 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>> Yes. Transform can create life where it did not exist before. (*)
>
>No, because of...
>
>> > [...] he could reverse a transform
>> > done by Medusa Maid, after she turns Lightning Lass into stone, and
>> > Lightning Lass would regain all of her powers, talents, etc.
>>
>> No. This is Dispel. Transform Metarule #1, never duplicate a power that
>> already exists in the BBB.
>
>...this "rule". Summon creates life where it did not exist before; letting
>Transform do so would therefore be stepping on Summon's toes.
"Metarule" is merely another word for "GM's opinion".
Does anyone remember the row over my "first sentence rule" (that to find if
a SFX fits a given Power, look only at the first sentence of the Power
description)? I got a lot of flack because I called it a "rule", implying
it was anything more than the way *I* personally run my games.
This is the same sort of thing. There are a number of Powers which can step
on each other's toes (Do I buy Running and Clinging, or Flight "Only along
surfaces (-1)"? Do I buy Stretching + Extra Limbs or focussed TK? Do I buy
a heavily modified Entangle, or a modified TK for Grabbing? Do I buy No
Range Images, or non-physical Shapeshifting?). Which Power (or combination
of powers) you eventually select is dependent on your GM's philosophies (for
example, a GM's views on Ye Dreade Linked Debate or Ye Curse of Mjolnir's
Uncertain Status can seriously affect the construction of certain
characters), and your preference in mechanics (that is, which ones "feel"
right for your character -- I might not want the speedster Flight, for
example, because I don't want to deal with turn modes.)
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 20:00:45 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
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At 03:15 PM 6/29/97 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>>Just remember that Transform shouldn't be a license to 'add points' in a
>>wholesale fashion.
>
>Yes, it should. It can do anything. The GM would have to a little nuts to
>allow any transforms like this, but that doesn't mean you should remove the
>ability from Transform.
I think the key words in his sentence was "in a wholesale fashion". He
wasn't saying it can't add points *period*, merely that it can't add points
*indiscriminately*. In other words, be careful out there, people.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 18:54:29 -0700
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> >Ah, but Transform can duplicate the effects of
> >another power. If I Transform
> >Eagle Girl into a woman without wings, I've
> >effectively Dispelled her Flight
>
> Actually, you've removed her Flight, as with Drain. So
> why not use Drain?
> If you want to pull the wings off of flies, it is better to Suppress
> or Drain its flight. (It's certainly cheaper...)
Actually a really high strength works too... More efficient and fun.
And now that the cheap shot is over...
Bryan Berggren wrote:
>
> "Metarule" is merely another word for "GM's opinion".
>
> Does anyone remember the row over my "first sentence rule" (that to
> find if
> a SFX fits a given Power, look only at the first sentence of the Power
> description)? I got a lot of flack because I called it a "rule",
> implying it was anything more than the way *I* personally run my games.
>
> This is the same sort of thing. There are a number of Powers which
> can step
> on each other's toes (Do I buy Running and Clinging, or Flight "Only
> along surfaces (-1)"? Do I buy Stretching + Extra Limbs or focussed TK? Do
> I buy a heavily modified Entangle, or a modified TK for Grabbing? Do I buy
> No Range Images, or non-physical Shapeshifting?). Which Power (or
> combination of powers) you eventually select is dependent on your GM's
> philosophies (for example, a GM's views on Ye Dreade Linked Debate or Ye Curse of
> Mjolnir's Uncertain Status can seriously affect the construction of certain
> characters), and your preference in mechanics (that is, which ones
> "feel" right for your character -- I might not want the speedster Flight, for
> example, because I don't want to deal with turn modes.)
Damn. too much quoting. It's really up to the GM to say whether a
certain power effect will be able to duplicate another power. My rule of
thumb is: Is that PC's power going to cause a bunch of headaches?
Sam Bell came up with a good disadvantage (I think it was physical,
total for 25 points). It was for this otherwise normal guy who could
control elements. (Work has sucked off too much brain. Can't think of
name.)
The disad was: Can not annoy GM with powers. (Wording is probably
slightly different.)
I think it came about from a Rolemaster game and some character who
could create 10'x10' sheets of iron. He kept thinking of creative (yet
annoying) uses for them.
-Mark Lemming
X-Sender: why@mars.superlink.net
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 23:38:23 -0400
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@mars.superlink.net>
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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A bunch of responses again...
At 08:00 PM 6/29/97 -0500, Bryan Berggren wrote:
>At 03:15 PM 6/29/97 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>>>Just remember that Transform shouldn't be a license to 'add points' in a
>>>wholesale fashion.
>>Yes, it should. It can do anything. The GM would have to a little nuts to
>>allow any transforms like this, but that doesn't mean you should remove the
>>ability from Transform.
>I think the key words in his sentence was "in a wholesale fashion". He
>wasn't saying it can't add points *period*, merely that it can't add points
>*indiscriminately*. In other words, be careful out there, people.
My point was that there should not be a rule against Transform adding
points to the target. That was the premise several dozen posts ago.
On 29 Jun 1997 15:42:37, Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> wrote:
>Using Transformation to counter disadvantages seems rather cheesy to me,
>though, no matter how I look at it.
So then, you are saying that a mystic healing cannot cure disfigurements by
Transform? How would you model a healer who can remove physical
disadvantages? Or psychic surgery which remove psychological
disadvantages? I'm talking about helping normals. How do they get
experience points which translate to surgery? Or does the physician who
heals them take them on as followers and spend his experience to heal them?
Transform is the only way to remove disads with or without paying the
points back. As usual, characters should not be allowed to do this to one
another, but that does not mean that it cannot be done. (Player #1: I buy
a 1/2d6 cumulative transform: "You into you without Unluck". Player #2,
okay I take 3d6 Unluck as part of my initial character. GM: Okay, let me
roll your Unlock first, hmm, seems the Transform fails to work again. Sorry.)
SS Rat again:
>Trevor Barrie said:
>>Unknown said:
>>> Or a transform that reverses the aging process?
>TB> Probably do this as a cosmetic or minor Transform, with a linked Aid to
>TB> increase any stats reduced by aging.
>If it is a permanant reversal then the recipient needs to buy Life Support:
>Immune to Aging to stop the aging process. If he then buys off the Age
>disadvantage he will "revert" to a younger physique.
I don't understand why you need LS to stop the aging process. He is only
reversing the effects of aging, the target will still age normally after.
I think Transform could be defined as "Humanoids 10 years younger than
now". Special effect would decide whether you remember the last 10 years
or not and whether or not it would work against a 9 year old. If the
person jumped an age category, it would be removed by the Transform. If
the Trasnform gets reversed or just heals on its own, the person ages 10
years instantly and if he jumps an age category, he regains the disad.
SS Rat, Trevor and Unknown once more:
>>> "transforms stone statue of a person into a person" he could reverse a
>>> transform done by Medusa Maid,
>TB> I wouldn't allow that as a Transform... it's a textbook Summon.
>Ditto.
As I noted before, what happens to the statue? Summon also destroys 10-15
BODY worth of stone? Cool effect.
On Sun, 29 Jun 1997 17:10:59, Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> wrote:
>[Long description of Transform Anything Man using what amounts to an entangle
> by transforming spandex into titanium deleted.]
>So I guess the basic question is can you duplicate the effects of another
>power (in this case Entanglement) with the clever use of transformation?
>Or would doc normal have to buy a linked Entaglement? Maybe the CP value
>of LL's costume could be converted into a 1 charge, NND, linked attack...
Transform Anything Man (or Doc Normal as Eric called him) must buy a
Transform VPP if he wished to Entangle people with their costumes. (And
the Comic Code Authority may have something to say about this if Lightning
Lass breaks out of her costume. :-)
Eric Burns again:
>Another example would be Lava Lad, who can turn inanimate objects into
>lava. Needless to say, this has a huge potential for abuse without the
>proper restraints.
Lava Lad should not be built with Transform. He should buy: 3d6+1 RKA
versus ED, Penetrating(+1/2) to destroy things. The special effect is that
when they are destroyed they turn into lava. This requires a Linked 1d6
RKA Penetrating(+1/2), Continuous(+1), Uncontrolled(+1/2), Object must be
destroyed by main RKA(-1/2) (I think that adds up) power to simulate the
ancilary damage caused by the resulting slag/lava. (Add 0 END to taste,
though it is not necessary. If he decides to use 12 END it last 2 or so
phases after he stops slagging it and then cool to a temperature where it
no longer does "real" damage to things. Also add Explosion (extra time on
the explosive part only: a limited advantage) if you want the Lava to flow.)
Joe
X-Sender: why@mars.superlink.net
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 01:28:06 -0400
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@mars.superlink.net>
Subject: Powers that step on other powers' toes (was Re: More Than
Meets The Eye)
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Just look what Bryan Berggren started, at 08:00 PM 6/29/97 -0500:
>>>>[I used the word "Metarule" two or three missing attributions back...]
>"Metarule" is merely another word for "GM's opinion".
Okay, I rename this "Metapostulate" if that makes you happier. :-)
>This is the same sort of thing. There are a number of Powers which can step
>on each other's toes
Okay, I'll just change the subject now.... Here are some answers (read:
opinions) and few more of these power conundrums: (This is long.)
>Do I buy Running and Clinging, or Flight "Only along surfaces (-1)"?
Depends, do you want to be easily knocked off the wall (flight+knockback)
and have to deal with turn modes? Or do you want cling to the wall like a
spider?
My favorite is Clinging, Ranged, Invisible Power Effects(IPE) + Running.
Allows you to "fly" between skyscrapers and lowers the effect of Knockback
if you are hit. (You are Clinging afterall.)
> Do I buy Stretching + Extra Limbs or focussed TK?
Don't forget Indirect and Invisible Power Effects on the Stretching if you
are simulating TK. :-)
> Do I buy a heavily modified Entangle, or a modified TK for Grabbing?
I don't allow "Only for Grabs" as a lim on TK. If you want that buy Entangle.
> Do I buy No Range Images, or non-physical Shapeshifting?).
Non-physical? Depends. Do you look like a zebra but walk like a human?
Or do you look like a zebra and walk like a zebra?
>Which Power (or combination of powers) you eventually select is dependent on
>your GM's philosophies.
That's because there is a whole metavalue to powers. (I think I have the
prefix "meta" stuck somewhere in my head.) TK is less versatile than STR,
Ranged would be, but in this case, the BBB says use TK.
Entangle causes a huge effect for very few points. (See one of my other
posts.) Versus supers it is quite balanced since a decent Brick cannot be
held for long by an Entangle built with same champaign limits he was built
on. It is not balanced when thrown at normals.
Regen is more expensive than a straight Aid, but Regen works automatically.
To do this with Aid, the aid would have to have 0 END, Persistent,
Continuous, and Uncontrolled (turned off when you are dead: I would say
that's reasonably obvious :-), only up to starting values, extra time (one
turn). Let's 1d6 regen = 10 AP and 10 Real. The Aid (1/2 d6 will average
2 points over time which is 1 BODY) = 10.5 AP and 5 real. Wow, it came out
cheaper. Did miss something? (Other than the stop sign on Uncontrolled,
doubled when added to 0 END power.)
Would you allow Uncontrolled to added to Regen, to allow a character to
come back from the dead? It could be turned off by burning the body, as in
Trolls or Vampires. If fact that is about the only way to model AD&D(tm)
trolls.
What does Flash, touch/tactile sense, do? If it alters the victim's
equalibrium you should buy it as a DEX Drain, or a Running Drain. If it
causes the victim to be unaware of his body when attacked, it should be a
Mind Control, telepathic, one command: "You do not feel damaged by anything
that hits you." All of these effects are more expensive than a 2d6 Flash
though. I won't get into tactile Darkness because it's just bizarre.
(Though probably a cool villain, if I can figure out the SE.) IPE Sight
Flashes are also great fun. ("What do you mean you can't see?")
Why do Force Field and Armor both exist as powers? I would dump Armor
because it gets Persistant for free. 2 PD / 3 CP Armor < 2 PD FF + 0 END +
Persistant. You should always buy Armor, costs END instead of FF. Or,
dump them both and just use PD, ED, and Damage Resistence. 2 PD + 2 points
of DR = 2 PD Armor.
Could Density Increase be simulated with Growth, no size change (-1/2) and
a few charactistic changes? Nah, better not tamper with those packages.
Can a character with Growth use the grow maneuver listed in the Shrinking
power description? Most people would allow this. If you have Shrinking
and Growth, can you go from 1/2m to 8m in one step (and one sudden growth
maneuver)? Or do you have to stop at 2m first? (I think the size change
maneuver should be described under combat, not under Shrinking.)
Can Images make someone Invisible? Can it simulate Darkness? Does it
require Change Environment to create light? If yes, does an Image (w/o CE)
of a fire or torch (Brit or Amer meaning) look really fake? Can you tap
someone on the shoulder (at range) with tactile Images, or do you need TK?
(Am I too enamoured of the hell caused by the tactile sense group? :-)
Does Telepathy "Sense what target senses" simulate Clairsentience? If yes,
can I buy Telepathy, Transdimensional (Time) to simulate Clairsentience,
into the past/future? (Yeah, I know. "No!")
Which is better, Desolidification, all attackes still hit (i.e. only to
walk through walls) or 1", 20DEF Tunnelling, tunnel fills in behind, No one
can follow? Why don't Desolid characters fall into the center of the
Earth? Or watch as the Earth spins quickly away from them as it tracks its
way around the sun, etc? Nope, that's flight. It would be a cool way to
get out into space quickly in order to use FTL, though, if it did work this
way. :-)
Transfer has a maximum amount of points it can grant to its user (like
Aid), but Drain has no (practical) lower limit? So shouldn't you always by
Transfer as xd6 Drain, xd6 Aid linked, die roll is the same as drain dice?
That way is always cheaper and more versatile: If I want the Aid to fade
at 5pts/5 minutes and the Drain to fade at 5pts/1 minute, I cannot do this
with Transfer without resorting to some hideous partially limited power
construct. The linked powers are easier to deal with.
Does anyone use Variable Advantage? I've never created such a character.
(Probably will soon now, but that's beside the point.) A multipower with
the most common variants is always cheaper and more than likely to cover
all the effects you are going to use. For example: 6d6 EB, Variable Ad(+1
1/2) costs 75. MP (50 pts) with 5 ultras yields a 10d6 EB, a 6 1/2d6 EB
with +1/2 adv, possibly a 5d6 EB with a +1 adv that the other power cannot
grant. Of course, it would cost more doing it with a VPP since VA can
change the Advantage as a 0 phase action.
My favorite Variable Limitation is -1/4 (-1/2 effect) on any Persistent
power: Either Always On, or Costs END. It simulates a character like
X-whatever's Shadowcat, who is normally Desolid (sleeps that way), but can
interact with the normal world when she wishes. (Not that this has much to
do with this list of questions, I just thought I'd share.) I have heard
GMs state a dislike for this idea.
Shouldn't you buy the explosion advantage as AoE Radius with the partial
limitation Reduced by Range on the AoE? (I think I'm going to try this
with AoE cone, just to confuse my players.) Of course, AoE R, RBR is
approximately equal to +3/4, and Explosion is +3/4 (if you try to match up
the reduction curves). But my AoE cone, RBR (~+3/4) idea would be cheaper
as Explosion, only effects a cone(-1 because it only effects 1/6 as many
squares as a normal explosion) which ~= +1/4.
Should a Side Effect which always occurs be worth a better lim than a Side
Effect which only occurs when a die roll is failed?
I'm going to stop now. I think I've hit enough of the toe stepping powers,
and other problem in Champions. (And not more than 3 days ago, I said that
the Hero System was the most complete Generic RPG around: Just because it
has the power Transform. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about... :-)
Joe
P.S. I won't start the debate over Hand-to-Hand Attack versus STR, no
lifting or grabbing (-3/4), if no one else starts it. Not to mention: STR,
no lifting or grabbing (-1 1/2), Can increase attack damage beyond 2x max
DCs on base power (+1?) :-)
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 09:22:29 -0400 (EDT)
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> On Sun, 29 Jun 1997 17:10:59, Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> wrote:
> >[Long description of Transform Anything Man using what amounts to an entangle
> > by transforming spandex into titanium deleted.]
> >So I guess the basic question is can you duplicate the effects of another
> >power (in this case Entanglement) with the clever use of transformation?
> >Or would doc normal have to buy a linked Entaglement? Maybe the CP value
> >of LL's costume could be converted into a 1 charge, NND, linked attack...
>
> Transform Anything Man (or Doc Normal as Eric called him) must buy a
> Transform VPP if he wished to Entangle people with their costumes. (And
> the Comic Code Authority may have something to say about this if Lightning
> Lass breaks out of her costume. :-)
>
> Joe
>
Naw, this would just be one of those issues with strategically placed
birds, flying baseballs. random flying debree, unexplained small clouds
of mist, and creative panel cuts made an appearance ;-).
Seriously, though, I'm beginning to think (as Joe and others do) that a
0 phase, no skill roll VPP with some limitations labelled "transform
side effects" may be the best (and safest) solution.
-Eric
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 09:33:12 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
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>>Ah, but Transform can duplicate the effects of another power. If I Transform
>>Eagle Girl into a woman without wings, I've effectively Dispelled her Flight
>
>Actually, you've removed her Flight, as with Drain. So why not use Drain?
>If you want to pull the wings off of flies, it is better to Suppress or
>Drain its flight. (It's certainly cheaper...)
No, because Drain could result in a partial loss or be Aided back.
Transforms either work completely, don't work, or are waiting for more
cumulative effect to work. If I Transform away Eagle Girl's wings, they're
gone for a LONG time (couple of months in most cases, or until a specified
event takes place).
>>Just remember that Transform shouldn't be a license to 'add points' in a
>>wholesale fashion.
>
>Yes, it should. It can do anything. The GM would have to a little nuts to
>allow any transforms like this, but that doesn't mean you should remove the
>ability from Transform.
In the first place, Transform CANNOT 'do anything'. It changes the target
from one thing to another. That sort of leaves out a whole lot of things -
like moving the target, for example. And, as you state with the 'one power
cannot replace another', there's a whole host of things Transforms 'cannot
do' - like Energy Blasts.
Oh, and I'll point out that I haven't Drained of Suppressed Eagle Girl's
Flight, I've changed her into a woman without wings. I haven't
Drained/Dispelled/Suppressed her power, I've removed it entirely.
>>If Mysterium Transforms the other PCs so that they can
>>breathe water
>I would only allow this with the LS: breathe water, using the Usable On
>Others variant in the System Almanac #1. The problem with transforming the
>PCs is that if the Transform is defined as a healable transform, the PC
>with 6 BODY/turn regeneration is going to drown a few minutes after he hits
>the water. Usable On Others prevents this.
Well, life sucks, doesn't it? Then again, it could be an event-specific
Transform (rather than 'heal back BODY', it could be 'wears off in a week'
as the specific circumstance.
>>I wouldn't allow that as a Transform... it's a textbook Summon.
>
>So what happens to the original Statue? Summon special effects can
>disintegrate 10-15 BODY worth of stone? Or is there a liked RKA in there?
>Also, Summon cannot be used to summon specific beings (such as the victim
>of Medusa Maid's transform). Besides, the MM's victim is now a statue.
>Summon can be used to heal people? Can I have this power: Summon, my
>friends healthy and hale, max 250 active points, 80 AP cost?
The statue is scenery; fairly nonessential scenery, in fact. If you like,
the statue is Animation Lad's 'focus of opportunity' needed to enact his
Summon. Basically, if/when the Summoning is ended/dispelled, the statue
appears where the animated creature was. It's not 'gone' but 'integrated'
into the Summoned creature. BTW, I'll point out that this is classic
summoning effects - several incidents of Summon in Champions suppliments
require corpses to Summon Zombies, for example.
And, in addition, Summon CAN summon specific beings with GM permission. Mind
you, Animation Lad shouldn't be able to revive MM's victim, as that's really
not part of Animation Lad's SFX (if Animation Lad runs off of Summon).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone
else's house?"
-NHS #56
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 09:33:18 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
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> So using his transformation abilities, he
>transforms Lightning Lass' costume into titanium. Since LL's costume
>covers her from the neck down, she finds herself unable to even wiggle her
>fingers. Fortunately Lightning Lad happens by, and saves his sister by
>zapping Doc Normal unconscious (we gotta have a happy ending now, don't
>we?...).
>
>So I guess the basic question is can you duplicate the effects of another
>power (in this case Entanglement) with the clever use of transformation?
>Or would doc normal have to buy a linked Entaglement? Maybe the CP value
>of LL's costume could be converted into a 1 charge, NND, linked attack...
Basically, yes, Transform CAN do this, but that's why it's a STOP sign
power. It's not really supposed to be used to simulate other powers. Someone
who can 'change anything to anything' should really have a VPP to cover all
the gross things possible with this power. For example:
Doc Normal changes the air above Mighty Man into a 20 foot cube of steel.
Wham. That's a AE indirect EB you're looking at - plus a whole lot of
uncontrolled TK weighing Mighty Man down (in effect by creating a multiton
weight).
Or, Doc Normal changes that car into an equal mass of toxic gas, which
because of massive pressure, explodes and spreads over several square miles,
instantly killing hundreds of thousands.
I had a planned PC character named Alchemy with a cumulative Transform 'one
element into another'. I abandoned that power as too abusive and bought a
small VPP instead to simulate this 'changing' with (usually) other powers.
After all, one capfull of plutonium could lethally pollute all of New York's
water supply...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone
else's house?"
-NHS #56
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:12:17 -0400 (EDT)
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> > >Ah, but Transform can duplicate the effects of
> > >another power. If I Transform
> > >Eagle Girl into a woman without wings, I've
> > >effectively Dispelled her Flight
> >
> > Actually, you've removed her Flight, as with Drain. So
> > why not use Drain?
> > If you want to pull the wings off of flies, it is better to Suppress
> > or Drain its flight. (It's certainly cheaper...)
>
> Actually a really high strength works too... More efficient and fun.
> And now that the cheap shot is over...
>
Shouldn't you be able to remove any powers with a transform within the
limits of the special effect? I mean, gold statues can't fly either...
I think the idea that transform can't do _anything_ that another power
could _possibly_ do is a bit ridiculous.
-Eric
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 08:23:31 -0600
X-To: Multiple recipients of Hero <hero-l@october.com>
Subject: Re: Religion in Games
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Don McKinney wrote:
>
> > > Crusade, crusade...
> >
> > ROTFL.
> We've had PC angels, and PC quasi-demons... ON SUPERHERO TEAMS...
We had a "semi-classic" rebelous demon. He was good. Classic gold/white
aura, had a 20 point Code against killing, another high point dudly doo
wright psych lim, but because he was a demon he had all of the phys lims
(about holy ground and such). He was rather interesting to have around.
One of the more interesting characters I had: Balrog (real name Robert
Chessick). Thing a supernatural Hulk with a little growth and DI;
swithces from human to demon. Origin: A major name demon had a personal
immunity area effect transform- human to demon (how he got his henchman
and agents). He materialized in this town and a number of people were
change. A local mage PC turned them all back, but one. Me. Now Robert
was always trying to get rid of the demonic side of himself, and felt
horrible about it. (he had some of the same phys lims as the goody demon
above).
Funny scene -and the reason I brought him up 8).. we had split up
investigating something, and as expected problems developed. Balrog and
one of his teammates showed up and Balrog dropped of his rider and
settled down to ground. Unbenounced to him the shapeshifter of the group
had decided to imersonate that piece of ground.The shapeshifter moans
and whimpers (coudn't take the weight). Robert immeadiately shifts to
his human form in despair thinking that the Earth itself cried out at
the touch of his Evilness.
Great moment.
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
Mhoram's Fantasy Hero Domain:
http://apeleon.net/~mhoram/hero/FHsplash1.htm
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 14:39:11 -0500
From: Joel Vallejo <jvallejo@bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: jvallejo@bellsouth.net
Subject: Re: Internet-based RPGs
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Todd Hanson wrote:
>
> Joel - check out what you sent to the list - it has an html document
> attached to the end.
>
> Sorry, I meant to send just the address (which is http://www.geocities.com/timessquare/castle/8456). By the way how to you put a hyperlink in an email.
Thanks.
Joel
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:54:18 +0000
Subject: Re: Powers that step on other powers' toes (was Re: More Than M
Reply-To: filkhero@usa.net
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> Just look what Bryan Berggren started, at 08:00 PM 6/29/97 -0500:
>
> > Do I buy Stretching + Extra Limbs or focussed TK?
> Don't forget Indirect and Invisible Power Effects on the Stretching
> if you are simulating TK. :-)
TK isn't invisible, but otherwise, ok.
<snip>
> Entangle causes a huge effect for very few points. (See one of my
> other posts.) Versus supers it is quite balanced since a decent
> Brick cannot be held for long by an Entangle built with same
> champaign limits he was built on. It is not balanced when thrown at
> normals.
Neither are killing attacks, if you don't mind killing them.
>
> Would you allow Uncontrolled to added to Regen, to allow a character
> to come back from the dead? It could be turned off by burning the
> body, as in Trolls or Vampires. If fact that is about the only way
> to model AD&D(tm) trolls.
You forgot Independent.:)
Well, you could buy +20 BODY, character becomes comatose at 0 BODY.
If the GM wishes, you can add Simulate Death and Immunity: Death
by Simulate Death failure.
Another one, which I like a lot: 1d6 Major Transformation: Dead me
to live me, Persistant, Continuous, Uncontrolled, Independent,
Trigger: When I am dead, only on self. Whenever you die, you come
back to life.
> What does Flash, touch/tactile sense, do? If it alters the victim's
> equalibrium you should buy it as a DEX Drain, or a Running Drain.
> If it causes the victim to be unaware of his body when attacked, it
> should be a Mind Control, telepathic, one command: "You do not feel
> damaged by anything that hits you." All of these effects are more
> expensive than a 2d6 Flash though. I won't get into tactile
> Darkness because it's just bizarre. (Though probably a cool villain,
> if I can figure out the SE.) IPE Sight Flashes are also great fun.
> ("What do you mean you can't see?")
I like it. Thanks for the idea. SE: Causes hysterical blindness.
Similar powers would include paralysis, END Drain ("Sorry, I forgot
to breathe.":), and other control of autonomic functions, by
tampering with the target's brain (not necessarily mind).
> Why do Force Field and Armor both exist as powers? I would dump
> Armor because it gets Persistant for free. 2 PD / 3 CP Armor < 2 PD
> FF + 0 END + Persistant. You should always buy Armor, costs END
> instead of FF. Or, dump them both and just use PD, ED, and Damage
> Resistence. 2 PD + 2 points of DR = 2 PD Armor.
Good idea. I personally plan to drop Damage Resistance myself, as too
many characters end up with it, because it is so cheap, even if it
doesn't fit their character conception.
<snip>
> Can Images make someone Invisible?
Yes. However, you are not invisible, and such things as shadows can
trip you up.
> Can it simulate Darkness?
No, though it might make it look dark in an area, it couldn't
actually have any real effect upon vision.
> Does
> it require Change Environment to create light?
Not necessarily.
>If yes, does an
> Image (w/o CE) of a fire or torch (Brit or Amer meaning) look really
> fake? Can you tap someone on the shoulder (at range) with tactile
> Images, or do you need TK? (Am I too enamoured of the hell caused by
> the tactile sense group? :-)
Actually, you are giving me a lot of good ideas.
> Does Telepathy "Sense what target senses" simulate Clairsentience?
No, telepathy only answers questions, one at a time. You can ask what
they see, but it might take a long time before they got to the
important item. "My red toothbrush, the pill bottle with the red
pills for my liver, my husband, Tom, getting into his Heroman
outfit,...."
<snip>
>Why don't Desolid characters fall into
> the center of the Earth?
Good question.
>Or watch as the Earth spins quickly away
> from them as it tracks its way around the sun, etc? Nope, that's
> flight. It would be a cool way to get out into space quickly in
> order to use FTL, though, if it did work this way. :-)
Your character wouldn't get left behind, because of inertia. However,
if gravity didn't work on the character, he would begin to rise due
to centripetal force, the speed of rise being greater the closer you
are to the equator.
<snip>
> Does anyone use Variable Advantage? I've never created such a
> character. (Probably will soon now, but that's beside the point.) A
> multipower with the most common variants is always cheaper and more
> than likely to cover all the effects you are going to use. For
> example: 6d6 EB, Variable Ad(+1 1/2) costs 75. MP (50 pts) with 5
> ultras yields a 10d6 EB, a 6 1/2d6 EB with +1/2 adv, possibly a 5d6
> EB with a +1 adv that the other power cannot grant. Of course, it
> would cost more doing it with a VPP since VA can change the
> Advantage as a 0 phase action.
>
> My favorite Variable Limitation is -1/4 (-1/2 effect) on any
> Persistent power: Either Always On, or Costs END. It simulates a
> character like X-whatever's Shadowcat, who is normally Desolid
> (sleeps that way), but can interact with the normal world when she
> wishes. (Not that this has much to do with this list of questions,
> I just thought I'd share.) I have heard GMs state a dislike for
> this idea.
As a GM, I like it a lot. Characters with Damage Shield, who can turn
it off with effort, for example.
<snip>
> Should a Side Effect which always occurs be worth a better lim than
> a Side Effect which only occurs when a die roll is failed?
Good idea.
> I'm going to stop now. I think I've hit enough of the toe stepping
> powers, and other problem in Champions. (And not more than 3 days
> ago, I said that the Hero System was the most complete Generic RPG
> around: Just because it has the power Transform. Maybe I don't
> know what I'm talking about... :-)
You did. I can find this many holes in any system, with a lot less
effort.
> Joe
>
> P.S. I won't start the debate over Hand-to-Hand Attack versus STR,
> no lifting or grabbing (-3/4), if no one else starts it.
Thankyouthankyouthankyou....
> Not to
> mention: STR, no lifting or grabbing (-1 1/2), Can increase attack
> damage beyond 2x max DCs on base power (+1?) :-)
Disallow the advantage.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 20:45:15 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified)
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
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>>Well then, you've effectively raised the active point total of the Transform
>>- after all, you do get what you pay for. That 6D6 Major Transform is 135
>>points if it's armor piercing or penetrating, and Find Weakness is neither
>>instant nor reliable (at a low cost level - and Find Weakness is EXPENSIVE).
>
>In my FH spells, I go for AP, Penetrating, and Cumulative, usually with
>a Continuing Charge.
>
>But if you use AP, you don't need the full 6d6 - 4d6 will usually do.
Urk. Talk about useless, though. Instead of the AP AND Penetrating, I'd go
for more dice! Check this:
Normal Major Transform: 8D6 for 120 AP
Cumulative Major Transform: 5D6 for 112.5 AP
AP Pen. Cum. Major Transform 3D6 for 112.5 AP
8D6 of Transform is enough to reliably take out 14 BODY targets with one
shot, and even 20 BODY targets aren't completely out of reach (need a real
good roll though). I mean, sure, the Cumulative Transform will get you there
eventually, but that's no help if the opponant's already hacked your head
off. How many opponants in FH have Power Defense anyway? Even the 5D6 Cum.
Transform is better than the AP & Penetrating variety in 90% of the cases.
Armor Piercing, and especially Penetrating, are advantages that just aren't
worth tacking onto Transforms.
>My understanding is that Transform works on *current* BODY.
Really? But what happens when things are at negative BODY? Personally, I
think the boys at HERO screwed up on this one - Transforms should be tied
into Mass of the opponant, not BODY.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone
else's house?"
-NHS #56
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: BeerCarboy@aol.com
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 02:34:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Characteristic Maxima
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I thought I saw someone write something a way back regarding increased
characteristic maxima (that is having characters with characteristic maxima
but higher than the disad Normal Characteristic Maxima), could someone tell
me a bit more about those rules either here or via private e-mail? I also
wonder about a powered armor character who has Normal Characteristic Maxima
except for characteristics bought through the armor. Are there published
rules regarding this (4th ed. please) or if not is there a consensus on how
to deal with this? It has been long enough since I have played that it is
even possible this is in the BBB and I'm just not seeing it :% . . .
Carter Humphrey BeerCarboy@AOL.com
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 10:42:05 +0000
Subject: Re: Characteristic Maxima
Reply-To: filkhero@usa.net
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> I thought I saw someone write something a way back regarding
> increased characteristic maxima (that is having characters with
> characteristic maxima but higher than the disad Normal
> Characteristic Maxima), could someone tell me a bit more about those
> rules either here or via private e-mail?
The rule used to be different, but these days it is, "A race can have
raised characteristic maxima, but they pay for the increase at the
same price as if they had bought the characteristic at normal cost."
IOW, if you want a race to have a characteristic maxima: 25 STR, you
have to pay for the 5 extra points of STR outright. It costs the same
as to buy it for anyone else with ordinary NCM, and you pay for it
even if your character isn't that strong. Personally, I'd declare
that a character of that race doesn't pay for it unless he buys it,
but that GM permission is no longer required.
>I also wonder about a
> powered armor character who has Normal Characteristic Maxima except
> for characteristics bought through the armor. Are there published
> rules regarding this (4th ed. please) or if not is there a consensus
> on how to deal with this? It has been long enough since I have
> played that it is even possible this is in the BBB and I'm just not
> seeing it :%
It is. Defender is a character such as you describe, and he has NCM.
Additionally, any characteristics bought with a Limitation or
Advantage are automatically exempt from NCM, but I can't recall where
that is written. I am almost certain that it is in the BBB.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 10:42:05 +0000
Subject: RE: Powers that step on other powers' toes (was Re: More Than M
Reply-To: filkhero@usa.net
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> >Another one, which I like a lot: 1d6 Major Transformation: Dead me
> >to live me, Persistent, Continuous, Uncontrolled, Independent,
> >Trigger: When I am dead, only on self. Whenever you die, you come
> >back to life.
>
> Until you heal your body back and the transform wears off, leaving
> you dead again...
>
> Dave Mattingly
>
Don't use that method of recovery. Use a specific event,
specifically, whatever it is that people can do to prevent your
coming back from the dead. Ex.: Transform reverts if you are burned
to a crisp.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 04:15:24 -0700
From: "Capt. Spith" <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Level playing field
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> h > But characters with strong minds _should_ be
> h > to affect than those with average or lesser minds. So I eventually
> h > on an automatic character disadvantage for all characters:
> h > Vulnerability, 2x effect from mental powers. I have also allowed that
> h > within concept, buy off that disadvantage, or lessen it, via a Talent:
> h > Resistant to Mental Powers, for 15 or 30 points (15 reduces the disad
>
> Mystic Masters suggested this. Fine for games where you want Mental
> powers to be dominant.
>
> h > 1.5x effect; 30 reduces to 1x effect). All characters now have mental
> h > defense as a figured characteristic, since those who purchase points
> h > in MD were getting EGO/5 free anyway. Why not give those points to eve
> h > for free, as it is only a few points.
> h >
>
> Well that explains part of your problem right there. Mental DEF is
> supposed to be unusual; possesed by mentally aware characters or
> those with extensive training or resistance. If everyone has it,
> you throw off the cost structure of EGO Attack completely.
Actually, I've found that EGO powers tend to be balanced the way they
are; the powers mostly do things aside from straight damage, so
shouldn't be compared straight across, plus mental defense is much less
prevalent than PD/ED and usually power defense as well. However, I do
like to give all characters 1/10 of their EGO in free mental defense as
well as 1/10 of their CON in free power defense - with the limitation
that these values don't apply vs. NND's which are stopped by those
defenses.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 04:31:15 -0700
From: "Capt. Spith" <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Religion in Games
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Don McKinney wrote:
> > I'm actually very interested on hearing the religous takes from other campaigns.
>
> It's obvious from the list traffic that several have run "Christian" teams;
> anyone do "other religion" teams? I mean, sure, norse and greek types are
> easy, but others?
The PC's in my game are loosely under the auspices of Bast (Egyptian
Cat-Goddess), and I have two NPC teams of neutrals/villians who are made
up of demons (I don't identify demons in my campaign as being affiliated
with a particular religious pantheon, nor even as actually being evil in
nature).
Actually, the most dangerous NPC in my game is a biological offspring
of an android and a human who experiments on animals and creates
paranormal humanoids. Yeah, he has no religious affiliation....
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: RE: Powers that step on other powers' toes (was Re: More Than M
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 07:51:20 -0400
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>Another one, which I like a lot: 1d6 Major Transformation: Dead me
>to live me, Persistant, Continuous, Uncontrolled, Independent,
>Trigger: When I am dead, only on self. Whenever you die, you come
>back to life.
Until you heal your body back and the transform wears off, leaving you
dead again...
Dave Mattingly
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 01 Jul 97 14:49:00 GMT
Subject: Looooooooong Arm of the
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h > When a Character has Stretching..... say 5"........ is that overall or
h > per body section?
h >
h > This is my groups' debate topic of the week...... I say since
h > Stretching
h > is soooooo cheap it's an overall thing...... if you try to apply this
h > ability to each section of thr body I say it becomes abusive real
h > quick...... just breaking the body down to Arms, Torso and Legs that
h > 5"
h > of Stretch suddenly becomes 15"........ hardly balanced
h >
h > Any other opinions?
h >
h > Jerry aka
h > Puzzleboy--Foxbat's Best Friend
Well, Stretching lets you stand in one hex an hit someone x" away,
so I can't picture it being 'overall' - you'd really be leaving
your hex at that point. I'd assume that combat stretching is for
one arm or whatever, and noncombat is a maxed-out 'overall' stretch.
Anyway, it's largely special effects.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 08:15:15 -0700
From: Mike Sprague <sprague@VivaNET.com>
Reply-To: sprague@VivaNET.com
Subject: Re: Characteristic Maxima
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BeerCarboy@aol.com wrote:
>
> I thought I saw someone write something a way back regarding
> increased characteristic maxima (that is having characters with
> characteristic maxima but higher than the disad Normal Characteristic
> Maxima), could someone tell me a bit more about those rules either
> here or via private e-mail?
Well, you can always pay 2X to increase them above normal. In addition,
you can buy characteristics as Powers (BBB pg. 60). There will likely
be some argument on this, but most people play "Characteristics bought
as Powers" such that they do not cost 2X (thus bypassing Normal
Characteristic Maxima), _because_ they are powers. They need a special
effect, however, while normal characteristics do not (this is a nit
though).
In my campaign, I do play it as above, and as a house rule I have stated
that the Limitation "Does not add Figured Characteristics" is always
applied as a -0 Limitation. Note that all characters in my Champs game
(Mutants and Normals with technology) have Normal Characteristic Maxima.
I'll also go out on a limb here, and say that as soon as you apply an
Advantage or Limitation to a characteristic, your buying it as a Power.
The distenction between the two, however is very minor.
Note: There is no strong argument indicating whether Characteristics
bought as Powers should bypass Characteristic Maxima or not. You have
to decide yourself how _you_ want your game to be played.
> I also wonder about a powered armor character who has Normal
> Characteristic Maxima except for characteristics bought through
> the armor.
A classic example. Simply purchase the characteristics as Powers with
the Limitation Focus. Decide if you need reduced END on any STR. Take
a close look at using the "Does not add Figured Characteristics"
Limitation, to see if it fits your needs.
~ Mike
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Characteristic Maxima
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 01 Jul 1997 14:50:46 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> writes:
F> The rule used to be different, but these days it is, "A race can have
F> raised characteristic maxima, but they pay for the increase at the
F> same price as if they had bought the characteristic at normal cost."
Increased characteristic maxima is a package deal construct and should only
be used as such. And the guidelines surrounding such package deals tend to
keep the cost down. So, the typical fantasy dwarf may get increased
Strength and Constitution maxima but he would also have decreased Dexterity
maxima -- total cost for the changes is 0.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 14:18:16 -0500
From: Jerry & Jamie Nealis <jnealis@OnRamp.NET>
Reply-To: jnealis@OnRamp.NET
Subject: Looooooooong Arm of the Law
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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When a Character has Stretching..... say 5"........ is that overall or
per body section?
This is my groups' debate topic of the week...... I say since Stretching
is soooooo cheap it's an overall thing...... if you try to apply this
ability to each section of thr body I say it becomes abusive real
quick...... just breaking the body down to Arms, Torso and Legs that 5"
of Stretch suddenly becomes 15"........ hardly balanced
Any other opinions?
Jerry aka
Puzzleboy--Foxbat's Best Friend
PS picked up Champions TNM...... interesting........ but even more
interesting ...... it was on the shelf next to an original boxed set of
Car Wars....... some ppl never throw ANYTHING away ;)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 14:38:25 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 02:18 PM 7/1/97 -0500, Jerry & Jamie Nealis wrote:
>When a Character has Stretching..... say 5"........ is that overall or
>per body section?
>
>This is my groups' debate topic of the week...... I say since Stretching
>is soooooo cheap it's an overall thing...... if you try to apply this
>ability to each section of thr body I say it becomes abusive real
>quick...... just breaking the body down to Arms, Torso and Legs that 5"
>of Stretch suddenly becomes 15"........ hardly balanced
>
>Any other opinions?
I've always thought of the basic Stretching as the single-limb Stretch
(that is, how far the character can reach in combat) and Non-Combat Stretch
as the overall distance he can cover (by Stretching both arms and legs to
reach 10" up or both arms to cover a 10" width, instead of just 5").
---
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Looooooooong Arm of the Law
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 19:57:07 -0400 (EDT)
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> When a Character has Stretching..... say 5"........ is that overall or
> per body section?
>
[SNIP!]
>
> Any other opinions?
>
> Jerry aka
>
> Puzzleboy--Foxbat's Best Friend
>
Well, I think that it should be by section because in the old INSPECTER
GADGET cartoon, the semi-robotic sleuth was able to stretch all his limbs
at once.
"Go Go Gadget Legs! Go Go Gadget Arms! Go Go Gadget Banjo!"
Actually, I'm lying. I think you're right, for play balance purposes it
should be overall. I just wanted an excuse to say "Go Go Gadget Banjo!"
Does anyone know what power the Gadget Banjo would fall under, btw?
Change Environment?
Go Go Gadget Sig!
-Eric
X-Sender: why@mars.superlink.net
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 20:59:27 -0400
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@mars.superlink.net>
Subject: RE: Powers that step on other powers' toes (was Re: More Than
M
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At 07:51 AM 7/1/97 -0400, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>>Another one, which I like a lot: 1d6 Major Transformation: Dead me
>>to live me, Persistant, Continuous, Uncontrolled, Independent,
>>Trigger: When I am dead, only on self. Whenever you die, you come
>>back to life.
>Until you heal your body back and the transform wears off, leaving you
>dead again...
Oh, come on. Forget your smiley? That Transform would be reversed by the
reasonable set of circumstances called being killed again. Otherwise there
is no way to do Resurrection in a Fantasy Hero game. I've thought about
making a MadCap type Hero with this power. Uncontrolled is the limiting
factor here (which you editted from my original post). It is turned off in
fire (or acid or whatever).
Joe
X-Sender: why@mars.superlink.net
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 22:01:39 -0400
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@mars.superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Powers that step on other powers' toes (was Re: More Than
M
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At 11:54 PM 6/30/97 +0000, Filksinger wrote:
>I wrote:
>> Entangle causes a huge effect for very few points. (See one of my
>> other posts.) Versus supers it is quite balanced since a decent
>> Brick cannot be held for long by an Entangle built with same
>> champaign limits he was built on. It is not balanced when thrown at
>> normals.
>
>Neither are killing attacks, if you don't mind killing them.
Actually, I have a player who always buys an Explosive Entangle. (he always
comes up with good Special Effects. They are valid for the character.) I
just find that an Entangle does not need to hold a brick. It only has to
withstand his casual strength. Because if it goes off during the bricks
offphase, his DCV is 0 for the coordinated attack which follows. This is
why I don't like Entangle's cost.
>> Would you allow Uncontrolled to be added to Regen, to allow a character
>> to come back from the dead? It could be turned off by burning the
>> body, as in Trolls or Vampires. If fact that is about the only way
>> to model AD&D(tm) trolls.
>You forgot Independent.:)
Independent? How does that help?
>Well, you could buy +20 BODY, character becomes comatose at 0 BODY.
>If the GM wishes, you can add Simulate Death and Immunity: Death
>by Simulate Death failure.
Doesn't simulate the trolls. You can put them through a cuisenart (causing
way more than 20 BODY). They will still come back from the dead.
>Another one, which I like a lot: 1d6 Major Transformation: Dead me
>to live me, Persistant, Continuous, Uncontrolled, Independent,
>Trigger: When I am dead, only on self. Whenever you die, you come
>back to life.
You're missing Cumulative unless you're normal BODY is around 2. "Only on
self" is a -0 limitation because of the trigger definition. Independent is
cheesy. It is not needed to make the power work. All it does is save
points. Continuous is only needed to keep the Cumulative Transform
running. Persistant keeps the power running after unconsciousness.
Uncontrolled allows the power to work after death. Trigger activates the
power. Of course, this power has 2 Stop signs (Transform,Uncontrolled) and
a "wary" (0 END, Uncontrolled).
>> Why do Force Field and Armor both exist as powers? I would dump
>> Armor because it gets Persistant for free. 2 PD / 3 CP Armor < 2 PD
>> FF + 0 END + Persistant. You should always buy Armor, costs END
>> instead of FF. Or, dump them both and just use PD, ED, and Damage
>> Resistence. 2 PD + 2 points of DR = 2 PD Armor.
>Good idea. I personally plan to drop Damage Resistance myself, as too
>many characters end up with it, because it is so cheap, even if it
>doesn't fit their character conception.
Well, no. Damage Resistance is necessary. Some character concepts require
natural resistant defenses.
>> Can Images make someone Invisible?
>Yes. However, you are not invisible, and such things as shadows can
>trip you up.
Why? You could just image the shadows into whatever is supposed to be
there. I would make invisibility give the viewer a better chance to see
through the image. ("That's a lot of fringe!")
>> Can it simulate Darkness?
>No, though it might make it look dark in an area, it couldn't
>actually have any real effect upon vision.
>> Does it require Change Environment to create light?
>Not necessarily.
>>If yes, does an
>> Image (w/o CE) of a fire or torch (Brit or Amer meaning) look really
>> fake? Can you tap someone on the shoulder (at range) with tactile
>> Images, or do you need TK? (Am I too enamoured of the hell caused by
>> the tactile sense group? :-)
>
>Actually, you are giving me a lot of good ideas.
Which ones? The tactile images?
>> Does Telepathy "Sense what target senses" simulate Clairsentience?
>No, telepathy only answers questions, one at a time. You can ask what
>they see, but it might take a long time before they got to the
>important item. "My red toothbrush, the pill bottle with the red
>pills for my liver, my husband, Tom, getting into his Heroman
>outfit,...."
Couldn't a deep reading see what they remember seeing just a split second
ago? :-)
Joe
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 23:42:10 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: Characteristic Maxima
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At 10:42 AM 7/1/97 +0000, Filksinger wrote:
>It is. Defender is a character such as you describe, and he has NCM.
>Additionally, any characteristics bought with a Limitation or
>Advantage are automatically exempt from NCM, but I can't recall where
>that is written. I am almost certain that it is in the BBB.
It's not in the BBB, AFAIK, in any direct form, but rather is
extrapolatable. Specifically, Characteristics deriving from powers are not
affected by characteristic maxima, according to the rules under the NCM
Disadvantage, and characteristics with an advantage or limitation are
considered Powers. Ergo, one can interpret this to mean (especially with
the Defender example) that putting an advantage or limitation on a
characteristic makes it immune to maxima.
On the other hand, one could also interpret the Defender write-up as a
flat-out mistake -- hardly unthinkable for the boys at Hero Games -- and say
the Disadvantage entry is talking specifically about Powers other than
characteristics which just happen to provide characteristics as a side
effect (Armor, Force Field, Density Increase, Growth, and possibly TK).
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 23:42:13 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: Characteristic Maxima
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At 02:50 PM 7/1/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Increased characteristic maxima is a package deal construct and should only
>be used as such. And the guidelines surrounding such package deals tend to
>keep the cost down. So, the typical fantasy dwarf may get increased
>Strength and Constitution maxima but he would also have decreased Dexterity
>maxima -- total cost for the changes is 0.
Of course, it's still broke even for package deals, because the character
still ends up paying points for nothing -- at best, you're no better off
than a normal human, and at worse you've wasted the extra points (if you
don't have a stat over 20). To compare, if you convert all maxima bonuses
to actual characteristics, the cost doesn't change (unless you increased the
maxima by more than 10), and you actually get an effect before you spend
additional points. Get out the spackle, this rule needs patching. :/
IMO, you're better off just going ahead and adding in +1 STR, -1 DEX, or
what have you directly into the package and ignoring the whole maxima deal.
It's simpler, it's fairer, and it's more intuitive to new players
(especially ones coming in from Bludgeon & Braggin', who will be used to
just modifying the statistics directly).
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 23:42:15 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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At 02:18 PM 7/1/97 -0500, Jerry & Jamie Nealis wrote:
>When a Character has Stretching..... say 5"........ is that overall or
>per body section?
>
>This is my groups' debate topic of the week...... I say since Stretching
>is soooooo cheap it's an overall thing...... if you try to apply this
>ability to each section of thr body I say it becomes abusive real
>quick...... just breaking the body down to Arms, Torso and Legs that 5"
>of Stretch suddenly becomes 15"........ hardly balanced
As far as I know, it's a total thing: you can stretch your entire body 15",
or you can stretch your arms 15" and have your body remain mostly normal, or
whatever. Presumably whatever mechanism creates your stretchiness also
makes it such that the more of your body you stretch at once, the less each
individual part can stretch (or, you can consider an "everything at once"
stretch to be NonCombat Stretching -- x2 distance).
As far as "soooooo cheap" -- do we have the same book? Compare and contrast:
10 STR TK, Fine Manipulation (25 pts.)
+10 Range Levels w/TK Effects (20 pts.)
Allows you to exert STR equivalent to a normal human's at 125" with no
penalty for range.
125" Stretching (625 pts.)
Exact same effects. Wait, not quite: the Stretching costs you 30 times as
much END, and may take a range penalty (requiring that extra 20 pts above)
anyways if your GM disagrees with me on that issue. Oh, yeah, and
Stretching leaves you vulnerable to Damage Shields, and it can be Blocked.
Unless you can come up with something to explain away a six HUNDRED point
difference, I can only say you have an extraordinarily funny definition of
the word "cheap".
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:12:18 +0000
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law
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> >If we're grasping at straws for a perk of stretching, howabout this one:
> >It could be looped around behind someone for a surprise/rear attack
> >(something you can't do with TK without it being bought as Indirect).
>
> Actually, no you couldn't. Nowhere is this ability mentioned as part
> of the power - i.e. you have to buy the Indirect advantage for it if
> you want to do this.
I have one word for you - elbows.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:12:19 +0000
Subject: Re: Characteristic Maxima
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> At 10:42 AM 7/1/97 +0000, Filksinger wrote:
> >It is. Defender is a character such as you describe, and he has NCM.
> >Additionally, any characteristics bought with a Limitation or
> >Advantage are automatically exempt from NCM, but I can't recall where
> >that is written. I am almost certain that it is in the BBB.
>
> It's not in the BBB, AFAIK, in any direct form, but rather is
> extrapolatable
<snip>
>
> On the other hand, one could also interpret the Defender write-up as
> a flat-out mistake -- hardly unthinkable for the boys at Hero Games
> -- and say the Disadvantage entry is talking specifically about
> Powers other than characteristics which just happen to provide
> characteristics as a side effect (Armor, Force Field, Density
> Increase, Growth, and possibly TK).
It was stated outright at one point, but after searching for it, I
have concluded that it is in the third edition rules, or some other
source.
Defender isn't a mistake, though, as other characters have the same
description.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:12:19 +0000
Subject: Re: Powers that step on other powers' toes (was Re: More Than
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
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> At 11:54 PM 6/30/97 +0000, Filksinger wrote:
> >> Would you allow Uncontrolled to be added to Regen, to allow a character
> >> to come back from the dead? It could be turned off by burning the
> >> body, as in Trolls or Vampires. If fact that is about the only way
> >> to model AD&D(tm) trolls.
> >You forgot Independent.:)
> Independent? How does that help?
>
<snip>
> >Another one, which I like a lot: 1d6 Major Transformation: Dead me
> >to live me, Persistant, Continuous, Uncontrolled, Independent,
> >Trigger: When I am dead, only on self. Whenever you die, you come
> >back to life.
>
> You're missing Cumulative unless you're normal BODY is around 2.
> "Only on self" is a -0 limitation because of the trigger definition.
> Independent is cheesy. It is not needed to make the power work.
> All it does is save points. Continuous is only needed to keep the
> Cumulative Transform running. Persistant keeps the power running
> after unconsciousness. Uncontrolled allows the power to work after
> death. Trigger activates the power. Of course, this power has 2
> Stop signs (Transform,Uncontrolled) and a "wary" (0 END,
> Uncontrolled).
Uncontrolled is not clearly defined as working when the character is
dead. While it has been a while, I have seen a number of powers that
were intended to work even if the caster were dead- all required
independent.
> >Good idea. I personally plan to drop Damage Resistance myself, as too
> >many characters end up with it, because it is so cheap, even if it
> >doesn't fit their character conception.
>
> Well, no. Damage Resistance is necessary. Some character concepts
> require natural resistant defenses.
Armor can be defined as natural, if you wish. The special effect
could be your skin, rigid or otherwise, or anything else you wish.
> >> Can Images make someone Invisible?
> >Yes. However, you are not invisible, and such things as shadows can
> >trip you up.
> Why? You could just image the shadows into whatever is supposed to
> be there.
The shadow is only covered if the Images cover the area where the
shadow should be.
> I would make invisibility give the viewer a better chance
> to see through the image. ("That's a lot of fringe!")
Images can be spotted, with a good enough PER roll. That is the
effect you describe.
> >Actually, you are giving me a lot of good ideas.
> Which ones? The tactile images?
Tactile Flash, tactile Images, several others.
> >> Does Telepathy "Sense what target senses" simulate Clairsentience?
> >No, telepathy only answers questions, one at a time. You can ask what
> >they see, but it might take a long time before they got to the
> >important item. "My red toothbrush, the pill bottle with the red
> >pills for my liver, my husband, Tom, getting into his Heroman
> >outfit,...."
>
> Couldn't a deep reading see what they remember seeing just a split
> second ago? :-)
After rereading the description of Telepathy, I have to change my
answer to "it's up to the GM". The description is not clear.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 97 11:41:43 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Steve McGinness)
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law
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At 05:57 AM 2/7/97 -0800, Mike Lehmann wrote:
>If we're grasping at straws for a perk of stretching, howabout this one:
>It could be looped around behind someone for a surprise/rear attack
>(something you can't do with TK without it being bought as Indirect).
>
>I can't think of another advantage of the power... :)
How about being able to grab a distant object, e.g., a plane and be able to
fly by association??
There is also the extension of your sense of touch. With a stretched arm you
get a feedback from the object being manipulated.
The TK wouldn't allow you to do these, the stretching would. Petty
advantages I agree but advantages all the same.
Stephen
Subject: Re: Characteristic Maxima
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 97 07:06:46 -0500
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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Bryan Berggren
>At 02:50 PM 7/1/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>Increased characteristic maxima is a package deal construct and should only
>>be used as such. And the guidelines surrounding such package deals tend to
>>keep the cost down. So, the typical fantasy dwarf may get increased
>>Strength and Constitution maxima but he would also have decreased Dexterity
>>maxima -- total cost for the changes is 0.
>
>Of course, it's still broke even for package deals, because the character
>still ends up paying points for nothing -- at best, you're no better off
>than a normal human, and at worse you've wasted the extra points (if you
>don't have a stat over 20). To compare, if you convert all maxima bonuses
>to actual characteristics, the cost doesn't change (unless you increased the
>maxima by more than 10), and you actually get an effect before you spend
>additional points. Get out the spackle, this rule needs patching. :/
As a house rule, I've gotten the following approved:
Increased Characteristic Maxima are treated as a -1/2 Limitation on the
"powers"
active Points. For example, ICM: DEX +3 is 6 Active Points (9 / 1.5 =
6). You're
still paying for nothing until you actually exceed the standard maxima
(20), but
once you do exceed it you come out a little cheeper than just paying the
double
points; Standard DEX 23 = 48 pts, ICM DEX 23 = 45 pts.
We also treat Advanced Generation Mutants as a Racial Package and the ICM
cost MORE
than the 20 points you get for NCM anyway. In general, I've NEVER seen a
racial
character that maxed out all his ICM stats, so they are always paying for
nothing
to some degree. The above house rule seemed to at least help with that
and allowed
lack of NCM to be treated as a STOP SIGN, which was something we were, in
general,
looking for.
____________________________________________________________________
| Name: John P. Weatherman | Phone: |
| email: asahoshi@nr.infi.net | (H) (910) 785-1130 |
| fax: (910) 748-4632 | (O) (910) 545-2722 |
|_____________________________|____________________________________|
| He who walking on the sea could calm the bitter waves, who gives |
| life to the dying seeds of the earth; He who was able to loose |
| the mortal chains of death and after three days' darkness could |
| bring again to the upper world the brother of his sister Martha: |
| He, I beleive, will make Damasus rise again from the dust. |
| Pope St. Damasus I (c.305-384) |
|__________________________________________________________________|
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: RE: Powers that step on other powers' toes (was Re: More Than M
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:21:54 -0400
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>>Until you heal your body back and the transform wears off,
leaving you
> >>dead again...
>
> > Oh, come on. Forget your smiley? That Transform would be reversed
> by the
> > reasonable set of circumstances called being killed again.
> Otherwise there
> > is no way to do Resurrection in a Fantasy Hero game. I've thought
> about
> > making a MadCap type Hero with this power. Uncontrolled is the
> limiting
> > factor here (which you editted from my original post). It is turned
> off in
> > fire (or acid or whatever).
>
> Then why not just declare being killed the reverse for all our
> transforms? The only way to reverse a transform is to kill the person?
> "I know he's been turned into a werewolf, but we have to kill him to
> cure him..."
>
> The idea has merit, but it depends on the availability of resurrection
> you want in your game. I've also seen it done with duplication usable
> against others, with appropraite lims.
>
> Dave Mattingly
>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 09:11:57 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law
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>If we're grasping at straws for a perk of stretching, howabout this one:
>It could be looped around behind someone for a surprise/rear attack
>(something you can't do with TK without it being bought as Indirect).
Actually, no you couldn't. Nowhere is this ability mentioned as part of the
power - i.e. you have to buy the Indirect advantage for it if you want to do
this.
>I can't think of another advantage of the power... :)
Not surprising. It's vastly overpriced.
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John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: ErolB1@aol.com
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 09:12:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Transform: I changed my mind
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I was all ready here to argue that Transform shouldn't be allowed to add
points - that was the rule in the original version of Transform (in Champions
III), and leaving it out of the 4th Ed is an Erratta that Should Be Fixed.
Then it struck me: The right rule is not that Transform shouldn't add points,
but that "Transform shouldn't be used to create useful things like weapons or
gold." (BBB p88)
Or Followers.
Or any sort of pumped-up ally.
Thus, though I now accept Vox's claim that it's OK to add points with a
transform, his example of a vampire-bite Transform: "Normal Person Into
Vampire" is, IMHO, *not* valid. A vampiric underling is too *useful* to the
Master Vampire for a straight Transform to be a valid power for producing
such. And the same reasoning applies to most (but not all) of the other
examples of Transforms That Add Points. (The book example of a Transform:
Dagger to Sword is a bit of a special case. I'd say that it would only be
valid in a campaign where one didn't pay points for equipment.)
The result of a successful Transformation attack should be only modestly
useful, like water, or a slightly better weapon, or a helpless, harmless
prisoner. Anything more, and the character should have to buy an associated
(or Linked) Power or Perk. I might allow a character to buy "Transform:
Ordinary substances into gold" - but only if he also bought 15 points of the
Wealth Perk.
On the other hand, the wizard Bob the Undying might buy a Transform that
turned people into little metal miniatures - bought as characters, rather
than objects. The resulting little metal characters might cost many points
(the Shrinking alone might cost 93 points). Yet it would be perfectly within
the spirit and letter of the Transform rules to allow this to be used on
0-point Normals (such as DNPC's).
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 05:57:46 -0800
Organization: Terminal BBS (403)327-9731
Subject: Looooooooong Arm of the Law
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-=> Quoting Bryan Berggren to Mike Lehmann <=-
>This is my groups' debate topic of the week...... I say since Stretching
>is soooooo cheap it's an overall thing...... if you try to apply this
BB> As far as "soooooo cheap" -- do we have the same book? Compare and
BB> contrast:
BB> 10 STR TK, Fine Manipulation (25 pts.)
BB> +10 Range Levels w/TK Effects (20 pts.)
BB> Allows you to exert STR equivalent to a normal human's at 125" with no
BB> penalty for range.
Couldn't No Range Penalty (+1/2) be bought in place of range levels (37
points)?
BB> 125" Stretching (625 pts.)
<heheheheh>
BB> Exact same effects. Wait, not quite: the Stretching costs you 30
BB> times as much END, and may take a range penalty (requiring that extra
BB> 20 pts above) anyways if your GM disagrees with me on that issue. Oh,
BB> yeah, and Stretching leaves you vulnerable to Damage Shields, and it
BB> can be Blocked.
If we're grasping at straws for a perk of stretching, howabout this one:
It could be looped around behind someone for a surprise/rear attack
(something you can't do with TK without it being bought as Indirect).
I can't think of another advantage of the power... :)
BB> Unless you can come up with something to explain away a six HUNDRED
BB> point difference, I can only say you have an extraordinarily funny
BB> definition of the word "cheap".
I've found charging 2 points per inch for stretching to work well. Has
anyone else tried it?
mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net - - - - - Justice Krewe / Enigma Watch GM
- - - - - - http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html - - - - - -
... A cat will assume the shape of its container.
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 08:08:12 -0700
From: Mike Sprague <sprague@VivaNET.com>
Reply-To: sprague@VivaNET.com
Subject: Package Deals (Was: Characteristic Maxima)
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I think the origional poster was asking "how you increase
characteristics over their Normal Characteristic Max?", not "How do you
increase Characteristic Max in Package Deals?"
Still, this has brought up an interesting thread.
Bryan Berggren wrote:
> Of course, it's still broke even for package deals, because the
> character still ends up paying points for nothing -- at best,
> you're no better off than a normal human, and at worse you've
> wasted the extra points (if you don't have a stat over 20).
I used to feel Characteristic Maxima changes in Package Deals were very
broken for the exact reasons you list (you still pay 2X). In addition,
if some characteristic Maxima are lowered, you only get half the value,
which doesn't balance out very well at all.
Because of this, I have yet to play in a group that actually uses
package deals per the BBB. I'n not saying that such groups don't exist,
just that I have never played with one.
In looking at converting some other systems (Star Wars) and in helping a
friend with a Fantasy Hero campaign, my opinion of Character Maxima
changes in Package deals has improved somewhat. It seems that whether
or not they are reasonable and balanced depends a _lot_ on how you write
a package up.
While it's not clear in the BBB, if you look at Package Deals in some of
the other books (e.g. Fantasy Hero) it seems that Disadvantages in
Package Deals do _not_ apply toward a characters maximum Disadantage
total. So in effect, they are additional free points that help pay for
the Package Deal.
Thus, if your doing something like a racial Package Deal and modifying
Characteristic Maxima, including a racial Disadantage helps balance the
Package Deal.
~ Mike
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 10:24:08 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law
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At 05:57 AM 7/2/97 -0800, Mike Lehmann wrote:
>Couldn't No Range Penalty (+1/2) be bought in place of range levels (37
>points)?
Point. This would only add about 12 points instead of 20. Of course, the
Stretching equivalent will want the levels anyways if your GM is being harsh
enough to still count range penalties for it, since +1/2 to a 625 point
power is ... well, almost as obscene as the 625 point power in the first
place. :]
>If we're grasping at straws for a perk of stretching, howabout this one:
>It could be looped around behind someone for a surprise/rear attack
>(something you can't do with TK without it being bought as Indirect).
>
>I can't think of another advantage of the power... :)
Yes, but with 625 points to play with, minus the 45 I've already used, I
think I have enough room to throw Fully Indirect on that there TK. Okay, so
with that and "No Range Penalty", we're at 62 points ... still 1/10th the cost.
==
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 10:24:10 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law
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At 11:41 AM 7/2/97 GMT, Steve McGinness wrote:
>How about being able to grab a distant object, e.g., a plane and be able to
>fly by association??
Point, but not really worth the massive gap -- you could build a flight
power better than any vehicle out of that gap.
> There is also the extension of your sense of touch. With a stretched arm
> you get a feedback from the object being manipulated.
I consider this part of TK w/Fine Manipulation, though it would be dependent
on the SFX, but ... hey, I'm cool with it. I won't argue. We'll just put
"Clairsentience w/Touch" (20 points) into our little package with the 10 STR
TK, Fully Indirect, No Range Penalty (62 points). Now we're at 82 points
versus ... wow, still 625 points. :]
For the record, I point these out not because I expect every way of handling
the same effect to cost the same -- no mathematical system is going to be
perfect, thanks to Godel's law -- but I like to at least hope the breakage
will be kept to hairline fractures. This particular botch in the rules is a
clean break -- the sheer size of the point gap makes it hard to just brush
off as a pecadillo of the system.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 10:24:12 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: Package Deals (Was: Characteristic Maxima)
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At 08:08 AM 7/2/97 -0700, Mike Sprague wrote:
>While it's not clear in the BBB, if you look at Package Deals in some of
>the other books (e.g. Fantasy Hero) it seems that Disadvantages in
>Package Deals do _not_ apply toward a characters maximum Disadantage
>total. So in effect, they are additional free points that help pay for
>the Package Deal.
This is how I play, in any case -- Package Deals are self-contained
entities, and all the skills and Disads are subsumed into a single Perk-like
cost.
>Thus, if your doing something like a racial Package Deal and modifying
>Characteristic Maxima, including a racial Disadantage helps balance the
>Package Deal.
Irrelevant, though -- after all, nothing requires a racial Package to
contain Increased or Decreased CHAR Maxima. And as I said before, if you
put in real CHAR instead of CHAR Maxima, the Package Cost usually isn't
going to change at all, AND you will always see an effect on the characters
who take that package, unlike the "standard" Dwarf who had to pay 23 points
(or pay 10 points and accept 13 points of disads, depending on how you look
at it) to get nada.
Broke is broke is broke is broke.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 10:24:15 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: Transform: I changed my mind
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At 09:12 AM 7/2/97 -0400, ErolB1@aol.com wrote:
> I was all ready here to argue that Transform shouldn't be allowed to add
> points - that was the rule in the original version of Transform (in
> Champions III), and leaving it out of the 4th Ed is an Erratta that
> should Be Fixed.
The odd thing is, Vox is beginning to shift his viewpoints here, too.
Trevor Barrie's example of the vampire vs. non-supernatural vampire with no
disads struck a chord with me: he's right, dammit, there is something wrong
that two powers with distinctly different "usefulness levels" have the exact
same cost.
But he doesn't take it far enough, because it also applies to hindering
transforms as well. I could use a Major Transformation to inflict someone
with a mystic "curse of hideousness" (DF: not concealable, causes disgust --
-25 points), or I could turn them into a toad (an Incompetent level
character, at best). And again, they cost the exact same.
On the other hand, given that Transform is a power as expensive as an RKA,
which doesn't work as often as the RKA, I don't really want to interpret it
in the "if it's useful, it's illegal" manner so often applied to Change
Environment.
> Then it struck me: The right rule is not that Transform shouldn't add
> points, but that "Transform shouldn't be used to create useful things
> like weapons or gold." (BBB p88)
Um ... note that this is specifically in the section about using Transforms
as a "creation from nothing" power. Also, as usual, it's badly worded,
because of course it means you can't use the Transform to create water if
you NEED water, because then the water would be a "useful item". :/
>Thus, though I now accept Vox's claim that it's OK to add points with a
>transform, his example of a vampire-bite Transform: "Normal Person Into
>Vampire" is, IMHO, *not* valid.
Improper logic. There's nothing in the Power which makes the character
being transformed into a FOLLOWER. You have to do that on your own, ergo
you're not creating something useful, you're creating something potentially
dangerous which you hope can be useful.
> (The book example of a Transform: Dagger to Sword is a bit of a special
> case. I'd say that it would only be valid in a campaign where one didn't
> pay points for equipment.)
No, the "special case" was the one you drew your guideline from in the first
place: "creation" Transforms. It doesn't necessarily apply to changing an
existing item.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 02 Jul 97 17:06:00 GMT
Subject: Looooooooong Arm of the
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h > From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann)
h > Subject: Looooooooong Arm of the Law
h > To: champ-l@omg.org
h > If we're grasping at straws for a perk of stretching, howabout this
h > one:
h > It could be looped around behind someone for a surprise/rear attack
h > (something you can't do with TK without it being bought as Indirect).
h >
h > I can't think of another advantage of the power... :)
h >
I've already thought of a few that I allow in my games - though
even with these, no one has ever built a Stretching character. <sigh>
(Oh, I've posted these before, so just go on to the next post
if you've seen them) :)
Stretching:
In addition to its normal functions, Stretching can be used
in a number of special maneuvers.
Sling Shot: The character with stretching must have two
strong objects to hold onto (combined DEF and BOD of
the two equal to his inches in stretching). He then
grabs hold and moves back half his stretching distance
and releases, springing back to normal shape between
the two objects. In this way he can increase his
ability to throw an object or (if he lets go) increase
his leaping distance. In either case his pts in
stretching are added directly to his strength for that
purpose.
Fly Swatter: The character can use two inches of stretching
to gain a +1 OCV in HTH combat (for an attack or
block maneuver) by stretching out his fists,
making them wider.
Under Wraps: A stretching character can wrap his elongated
limbs and body around a victim he wishes to
immobilize.Each inch of stretching used to 'wrap'
the target adds 5pts to the stretcher's effective
strength for holding on (though not for
squeezing).
Squiggle: Conversely, the character can add his points in
stretching to his strength to escape from grabs and
many entangles, in a manner similar to the
contortionist skill.
Crack the Whip: The character uses his elongated limbs to
strike with a whip-like motion, increasing damage. The
target must be at least 1 hex away but within half the
attacker's maximum stretching distance. Damage is
increased by +1d6 per 2" of stretching the character
pays endurance on. This attack takes an extra segment
to perform - like a haymaker - and reduces the
attackers DCV by 2.
Opal,
wasting bandwidth with stuff everyone's already seen...
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: RE: Looooooooong Arm of the Law
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:34:57 -0400
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Instead of 125" of Stretching for 625 points, how about 2" of
Stretching with 64xNCM for 40 points? Stretching is already considered
HTH, so no range modifiers are needed. Now for the cost of being at 1/2
OCV and 1/2 DCV, you've got a 128" reach.
Dave Mattingly
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:16:16 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Transform: I changed my mind
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>But he doesn't take it far enough, because it also applies to hindering
>transforms as well. I could use a Major Transformation to inflict someone
>with a mystic "curse of hideousness" (DF: not concealable, causes disgust --
>-25 points), or I could turn them into a toad (an Incompetent level
>character, at best). And again, they cost the exact same.
Well, that's debatable. A Transform that only changes the appearance of the
target is Cosmetic (5 CP per die), though this sounds like it goes a little
further - say a Minor Transform (10 CP per die) to get the 'curse of
hideousness'. I certainly wouldn't call it a Major Transform, unlike turning
someone into a toad.
>>Thus, though I now accept Vox's claim that it's OK to add points with a
>>transform, his example of a vampire-bite Transform: "Normal Person Into
>>Vampire" is, IMHO, *not* valid.
>
>Improper logic. There's nothing in the Power which makes the character
>being transformed into a FOLLOWER. You have to do that on your own, ergo
>you're not creating something useful, you're creating something potentially
>dangerous which you hope can be useful.
Actually, it could be: Transform: Opponant to Vampire Slave which IMHO isn't
abusive as it looks! (just kidding). Stuff like this should be handled via a
plot device or radiation accident - very, very few villians go about
creating monster slaves from helpless peons (wholesale) - and most of them
do it via a plot device rather than innate power. Besides, Mind Control is
the power you want for enslaving people...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone
else's house?"
-NHS #56
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Characteristic Maxima
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 02 Jul 1997 15:03:42 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "BB" == Bryan Berggren <ludator@softfarm.com> writes:
BB> Of course, it's still broke even for package deals, because the
BB> character still ends up paying points for nothing
If that happens then the one responsible for building the package screwed
up. Ideally, the advantages of a package should be balanced by equivalent
disadvantages. To wit, my example: if Strength and Constitution maxima are
increased to 25, then Dexterity maximum reduced to 15 will give the package
a cost of 0.
The only reason for a package costing points is when it provides tangibles
that do not have commessurate disadvantages.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
\ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:39:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Characteristic Maxima
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On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Bryan Berggren wrote:
> At 02:50 PM 7/1/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >Increased characteristic maxima is a package deal construct and should only
> >be used as such. And the guidelines surrounding such package deals tend to
> >keep the cost down. So, the typical fantasy dwarf may get increased
> >Strength and Constitution maxima but he would also have decreased Dexterity
> >maxima -- total cost for the changes is 0.
>
> Of course, it's still broke even for package deals, because the character
> still ends up paying points for nothing -- at best, you're no better off
> than a normal human, and at worse you've wasted the extra points (if you
> don't have a stat over 20). To compare, if you convert all maxima bonuses
> to actual characteristics, the cost doesn't change (unless you increased the
> maxima by more than 10), and you actually get an effect before you spend
> additional points. Get out the spackle, this rule needs patching. :/
The way we decided to handle it is based off of something that (I think)
Steve Perrin presented in an old issue of Adventurer's Club. If the
package deal gives on a STR Maxima of 23, then the character has a base
(starting STR) of 13. On the other hand, if his EGO maxes at 18, then he
starts with a 8 EGO. All these mods are bought as one lump sum defeined
as a "Racial Package". It seems to work pretty well, and avoids the 'pay
twice' effect that bothered me about the orginal, BBB, Racial Package
Deal.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:49:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Characteristic Maxima
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On 2 Jul 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "BB" == Bryan Berggren <ludator@softfarm.com> writes:
>
> BB> Of course, it's still broke even for package deals, because the
> BB> character still ends up paying points for nothing
>
> If that happens then the one responsible for building the package screwed
> up. Ideally, the advantages of a package should be balanced by equivalent
> disadvantages. To wit, my example: if Strength and Constitution maxima are
> increased to 25, then Dexterity maximum reduced to 15 will give the package
> a cost of 0.
Which seems to be a bit extreme as a requirement. Presumably then, you
also treat package deals as seperate entities, in which the the final
package cost is written down as a single sum on the character sheet? In
this case, yes, one doesn't exactly pay 'double' for certin increased
maxima. But, if one uses it as a set series of skills and disadvantages
that count vs the character's point totals it doesn't work.
Personally, I've never been too sure which method one is to use (the
assorted rule books are not very clear).
> The only reason for a package costing points is when it provides tangibles
> that do not have commessurate disadvantages.
Which seems to be most of them.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "hero-l@omg.org" <hero-l@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 97 20:07:09
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
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On Mon, 30 Jun 1997 20:45:15 -0400 (EDT), John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>>Well then, you've effectively raised the active point total of the Transform
>>>- after all, you do get what you pay for. That 6D6 Major Transform is 135
>>>points if it's armor piercing or penetrating, and Find Weakness is neither
>>>instant nor reliable (at a low cost level - and Find Weakness is EXPENSIVE).
>>
>>In my FH spells, I go for AP, Penetrating, and Cumulative, usually with
>>a Continuing Charge.
>>
>>But if you use AP, you don't need the full 6d6 - 4d6 will usually do.
>
>Urk. Talk about useless, though. Instead of the AP AND Penetrating, I'd go
>for more dice! Check this:
>
>Normal Major Transform: 8D6 for 120 AP
>Cumulative Major Transform: 5D6 for 112.5 AP
>AP Pen. Cum. Major Transform 3D6 for 112.5 AP
If you're using the last, you stick with 1d6 at most - or even one pip
- which cust down the cost markedly!
>8D6 of Transform is enough to reliably take out 14 BODY targets with one
>shot, and even 20 BODY targets aren't completely out of reach (need a real
>good roll though). I mean, sure, the Cumulative Transform will get you there
>eventually, but that's no help if the opponant's already hacked your head
>off. How many opponants in FH have Power Defense anyway? Even the 5D6 Cum.
>Transform is better than the AP & Penetrating variety in 90% of the cases.
>Armor Piercing, and especially Penetrating, are advantages that just aren't
>worth tacking onto Transforms.
>
>>My understanding is that Transform works on *current* BODY.
>
>Really? But what happens when things are at negative BODY?
Things at negative BODY are dying or dead and don't count.
>Personally, I
>think the boys at HERO screwed up on this one - Transforms should be tied
>into Mass of the opponant, not BODY.
But BODY is related to the Mass - via Size/Density Increase.
Actually, I'd base it on CON, for obvious reasons.
qts
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 97 20:09:54
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Transform: I changed my mind
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On Wed, 2 Jul 1997 09:12:31 -0400 (EDT), ErolB1@aol.com wrote:
<snip>
>On the other hand, the wizard Bob the Undying might buy a Transform that
>turned people into little metal miniatures - bought as characters, rather
>than objects. The resulting little metal characters might cost many points
>(the Shrinking alone might cost 93 points). Yet it would be perfectly within
>the spirit and letter of the Transform rules to allow this to be used on
>0-point Normals (such as DNPC's).
Other way round, surely?
Otherwise Bob the Wizard has to pay inordinately to Transform people to
frogs!
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:16:11 -0400 (EDT)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
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>>Urk. Talk about useless, though. Instead of the AP AND Penetrating, I'd go
>>for more dice! Check this:
>>
>>Normal Major Transform: 8D6 for 120 AP
>>Cumulative Major Transform: 5D6 for 112.5 AP
>>AP Pen. Cum. Major Transform 3D6 for 112.5 AP
>
>If you're using the last, you stick with 1d6 at most - or even one pip
>- which cust down the cost markedly!
Yeah, but then we're completely out of the realm of 'useful' combat powers.
Sure, give me a million years and my 1D6 Penetrating RKA will destroy the
Earth...big deal. In a campaign with any sort of active point limitation on
powers, 'all or nothing' and 'cumulative' transforms will outclass
'Penetrating' and 'Armor Piercing' transforms 95% of the time. Sure, it's
nice to have that 5% of the time when you really, really need it, but it's
next to useless in combat the rest of the time.
>>>My understanding is that Transform works on *current* BODY.
>>
>>Really? But what happens when things are at negative BODY?
>
>Things at negative BODY are dying or dead and don't count.
So what then? You can't Transform dying characters? Why not? Or do you then
use the absolute value of the BODY stat?. Look what happens when you use
current BODY as the target for Transforms (assuming a 20 BODY stat)
Current BODY: BODY Damage until Death:
20 40
15 35
10 30
5 25
0 20
-5 15
-10 10
-15 5
-20 0
Now, if you based the Transform vs. the 'BODY damage until death' number it
might make more sense, but I really think that linking the amount of
corporeal damage someone has taken to the difficulty of Transforming them is
a bad idea. The corpse of a 20 BODY person should be just as difficult to
Transform as the body of a live 20 BODY person.
>>Personally, I
>>think the boys at HERO screwed up on this one - Transforms should be tied
>>into Mass of the opponant, not BODY.
>
>But BODY is related to the Mass - via Size/Density Increase.
Not really. Shrinking man doesn't lose any BODY when he's 2 inches tall. But
he sure loses a whole lot of mass.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone
else's house?"
-NHS #56
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 15:23:33 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: Transform: I changed my mind
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At 02:16 PM 7/2/97 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote:
> Well, that's debatable. A Transform that only changes the appearance of
> the target is Cosmetic (5 CP per die), though this sounds like it goes a
> little further - say a Minor Transform (10 CP per die) to get the 'curse
> of hideousness'. I certainly wouldn't call it a Major Transform, unlike
> turning someone into a toad.
The example is debatable, maybe, but I think the point is still valid. Say,
compare turning you into a toad to turning you into a horse. Both are Major
Transforms, completely altering your character. But the horse is a more
useful (that is, less debilitating) transformation, since it doesn't render
you helpless in combat like the toad does (in other words, a Horse is a
higher point animal qua the HERO Bestiary than a toad would be, and yet
still below most character totals). And, again, both of these
transformations would cost the same.
> Actually, it could be: Transform: Opponant to Vampire Slave which IMHO
> isn't abusive as it looks! (just kidding).
Okay, to reword: my INTENTION for a vampiric transformation does not include
any form of obeiance. That would be left to be handled by other powers of
the Master Vampire. Ergo, the potential follower nature of the newly
created vampire is irrelevant to the question of whether the power is
inherently "valid" -- the same vampire who could be my follower could also
decide the world isn't big enough for both of us.
==
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 15:23:35 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: RE: Looooooooong Arm of the Law
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At 01:34 PM 7/2/97 -0400, Dave Mattingly wrote:
> Instead of 125" of Stretching for 625 points, how about 2" of
>Stretching with 64xNCM for 40 points? Stretching is already considered
>HTH, so no range modifiers are needed. Now for the cost of being at 1/2
>OCV and 1/2 DCV, you've got a 128" reach.
RTFBBB. Stretching is a Standard Power, not a Movement Power You can't BUY
Noncombat multipliers for it -- just the base x2 that comes free (which
conventional wisdom seems to accept as being the effects of stretching
everything at once instead of just a single limb).
Breaking the rules doesn't unbreak the mechanic. :]
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:25:35 -0500
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
Subject: Re: Characteristic Maxima
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I believe it was Steve Perrin, in an Adventurer's Club "GM's Discretion"
article, that suggested that the points one spent on the "increased maxima"
actually raise the base value of the stat.
For example, if (Gloranthan) Dwarves cost +15 points for +5 STR and +5 CON,
then they would start with a STR and CON of 15 each, and their racial max
would be 10 pips above that (25).
One caveat: this can make for hugely-efficient "heroic-level" characters,
so I'd restrict this to GM-statted races only.
Donald
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:32:47 -0500
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law
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Two advantages of Stretching that haven't been mentioned:
(a) can't be Missile Deflected/Reflected
(b) Martial Arts add, and have great special effects to boot
(Imagine someone grabbing you from 10" away, and pulling you right
into a huge anvil-fist coming the other way)
And analyze that 125" (Stretching vs TK) for someone with 1000 STR.
Silly mortals...
Donald
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 15:34:06 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: Characteristic Maxima
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At 03:03 PM 7/2/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>If that happens then the one responsible for building the package screwed
>up. Ideally, the advantages of a package should be balanced by equivalent
>disadvantages. To wit, my example: if Strength and Constitution maxima are
>increased to 25, then Dexterity maximum reduced to 15 will give the package
>a cost of 0.
First of all, Rat, there's no law saying packages have to have a 0 cost. In
fact, neither package presented for races in the BBB itself have a 0 cost.
Second, you seem to be missing the salient point here: increasing CHAR
Maximas in a package simply ISN'T an "advantage" -- those points do not
benefit the character in any way. You're increasing the cost of the package
without providing any commensurate benefits to the character -- or, in other
words, requiring him to throw points away for nothing.
And even if a package costs "0", remember that it had to have Disadvantages
put in it to balance out the points the GM spent on Increased Maxima.
>The only reason for a package costing points is when it provides tangibles
>that do not have commessurate disadvantages.
Uh, yeah ... in other words, a package costs points when you put more
bonuses than penalties. What a revelation. :/
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 15:35:52 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: Characteristic Maxima
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 03:39 PM 7/2/97 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>The way we decided to handle it is based off of something that (I think)
>Steve Perrin presented in an old issue of Adventurer's Club. If the
>package deal gives on a STR Maxima of 23, then the character has a base
>(starting STR) of 13. On the other hand, if his EGO maxes at 18, then he
>starts with a 8 EGO. All these mods are bought as one lump sum defeined
>as a "Racial Package". It seems to work pretty well, and avoids the 'pay
>twice' effect that bothered me about the orginal, BBB, Racial Package
>Deal.
In other words, pretty much what I recommended: don't buy increased CHAR
Maxima, just buy Increased CHAR. It's simpler, quicker, and less of a
mechanical headache, plus it actually gets the job done.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:14:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Go Go Gadget Banjo
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At 07:57 PM 7/1/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote:
>Well, I think that it should be by section because in the old INSPECTER
>GADGET cartoon, the semi-robotic sleuth was able to stretch all his limbs
>at once.
>
>"Go Go Gadget Legs! Go Go Gadget Arms! Go Go Gadget Banjo!"
>
>Actually, I'm lying. I think you're right, for play balance purposes it
>should be overall. I just wanted an excuse to say "Go Go Gadget Banjo!"
>Does anyone know what power the Gadget Banjo would fall under, btw?
>Change Environment?
I'd tend to say Images, with appropriate Limitations such as Music Only.
---
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library
From: flacksd@evron.com
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:31:43 -0500
Subject: Re: A scenario idea, and a question
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>> I've never seen anyone who claimed to have the "gift of healing",
>
>Don't watch much TV?
>
> No actually I don't, but that's not relevant. I should perhaps have said
>"Never MET anyone who claimed ...", I don't consider TV evangelist to
>be "real" examples of religion, or even real examples of human... :)
Ever heard of Rieki ? (I think that is how they spell it)
I have seen and experienced it. It seems to be able to releave pain and
small injuries. I have only meet people at the begining of their Rieki
trainning, so I don't know exactly what they claim Rieki can do. They do
seem to claim that some healing can occur from proper laying on of
hands, as it were. Rieki requires training and skill, but does not seem to
require any religous bent.
Daniel Flacks
dflacks@evron.com
From: flacksd@evron.com
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:43:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Transform / Religion LONG - Reply
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>>I ran a campaign a few years back with a cult style religious
>>organization which had the ability to transform normal people into
>>followers, and transform people into temporary, low-powered supers.
>> This actually turned out to be a lot of fun.
>>
>>snip
>>
>>The cult-like organization, Millennium, became one of the major *evil*
>>organizations in my campaign. As well as a great source of moral
>>quandaries for the players.
>>
>>snip
>>
>You ever think about starting this back up as a play by email. It sounds
>just too cool!
>
>PAX,
>John
Thanks John.
I like the idea of using Millennium again, not to metion the other twisted
organizations in that campaign, but as for a PBEM, it won't be soon. I
have three problems.
1) No Web page. I can get one though, so scratch that.
2) No material. Sortly after my group broke up I had a house fire. All my
books, videos, gamming material, valuble comics, etc. were destroyed.
Even my computer and backups melted. I have recreated some of the
campaign material, based on how I would like the characters, etc., to be
rather that how they actualy were. Most of the material is still to be
recreated. This will take time.
Warning, Will Robertson, Warning!!! If you have important stuff on your
computer you should have an off-site backup. Store it at work, in the
bank, at a friends, whatever. Otherwise, you may find both your
computer and backups a homogeneous blob like I did.
3) I have never ran or played in a PBEM game before. I have just joined
my first PBEM game, but we are only on turn two. It will be awhile
before I feel ready to run one of my own.
Sorry,
Daniel Flacks
dflacks@evron.com
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 16:48:47 -0500
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us>
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law
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I have NEVER seen anyone who applies range modifiers to Stretching. If
you are uusing stretching, you are by definition in HTH with the person you
are attacking, no range modifiers are applicable.
Otherwise stretching is indeed a useless power.
Incidentally I have seen only one character TAKE stretching as a power,
except to get extra reach on weapons, and I've been playing since the
ORIGINAL Blue Book (ie:1st edition).
From: "Debbie & Yancy" <yevans@pty.com>
Subject: Important Question Regarding Subscription
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:50:07 -0500
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We are moving and I need to unsub my husband from this list. Can someone
please send me the commands to do so.
TIA,
Debbie
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:05:19 -0700 (PDT)
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From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Characteristic Maxima
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At 03:34 PM 7/2/97 -0500, Bryan Berggren wrote:
>At 03:03 PM 7/2/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>If that happens then the one responsible for building the package screwed
>>up. Ideally, the advantages of a package should be balanced by equivalent
>>disadvantages. To wit, my example: if Strength and Constitution maxima are
>>increased to 25, then Dexterity maximum reduced to 15 will give the package
>>a cost of 0.
>
>First of all, Rat, there's no law saying packages have to have a 0 cost. In
>fact, neither package presented for races in the BBB itself have a 0 cost.
I don't think SSR was trying to expostulate a rule here; he was
expressing an opinion, which I happen to agree with to an extent. Ideally,
racial packages should net a 0 cost. (I prefer a cost to professional
packages -- commensurate with how powerful the profession is, of course.)
---
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 18:07:23 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Go Go Gadget Banjo
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>>"Go Go Gadget Legs! Go Go Gadget Arms! Go Go Gadget Banjo!"
>>
>>Actually, I'm lying. I think you're right, for play balance purposes it
>>should be overall. I just wanted an excuse to say "Go Go Gadget Banjo!"
>>Does anyone know what power the Gadget Banjo would fall under, btw?
>>Change Environment?
>
> I'd tend to say Images, with appropriate Limitations such as Music Only.
Hah! Who on the list remembers El Kabong? Gadget Banjo should be worth at
least a couple of dice worth of Hand Attack. :-)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone
else's house?"
-NHS #56
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:19:37 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law
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At 04:48 PM 7/2/97 -0500, Earl Kwallek wrote:
> I have NEVER seen anyone who applies range modifiers to Stretching. If
>you are uusing stretching, you are by definition in HTH with the person you
>are attacking, no range modifiers are applicable.
It even says so in the BBB (last sentence of the first paragraph under
the Stretching Power).
---
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X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 17:24:07 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law
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At 03:32 PM 7/2/97 -0500, Donald Tsang wrote:
>Two advantages of Stretching that haven't been mentioned:
>(a) can't be Missile Deflected/Reflected
Oh, yes it can be Deflected. It's called "Block", and all your enemies get
it for FREE. And the "reflection" thing is fairly balanced by the fact that
it DOES makes you vulnerable to Damage Shields.
>(b) Martial Arts add, and have great special effects to boot
> (Imagine someone grabbing you from 10" away, and pulling you right
> into a huge anvil-fist coming the other way)
The Martial Arts bit could apply to a lot of powers, dependent on the SFX of
that power. As an example, Focussed Stretching only applies Martial arts
with an appropriate weapon element.
>And analyze that 125" (Stretching vs TK) for someone with 1000 STR.
Not really applicable. See, to compare Stretching to TK for someone with a
1000 STR, you must increase the STR of the TK to 1000 (with No Range Penalty
and Fully Indirect, 3750 points), at which point it increases its range to,
oh, 7500". Care to buy 7500" of stretching? (18,750 if you assume it as
non-combat)
Using TK to create a "stretching" special effect is just flat out more
efficient -- and, more to the point, OBSCENELY more efficient. And I
haven't even gotten into such items as a limitation "Can be attacked in
intervening spaces", or "1/2 DCV Concentration" on the second half of the power.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 17:24:10 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law
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At 04:48 PM 7/2/97 -0500, Earl Kwallek wrote:
> I have NEVER seen anyone who applies range modifiers to Stretching. If
>you are uusing stretching, you are by definition in HTH with the person you
>are attacking, no range modifiers are applicable.
Actually, this is true: if anyone is applying range mods to a stretching
attack, you are being a prick. Please stop. :]
Seriously, I mentioned this concept in earlier posts because I have vague
memories of a stretching argument in the past surrounding (a) range mods and
stretching and (b) whether you can be attacked in hexes you stretching
through. The fact is, though, the power description says plainly "You don't
take range penalties using this power", so that's that. :]
> Otherwise stretching is indeed a useless power.
I think it's making a good case for being useless anyways. ;]
> Incidentally I have seen only one character TAKE stretching as a power,
>except to get extra reach on weapons, and I've been playing since the
>ORIGINAL Blue Book (ie:1st edition).
This may have something to do with the fact that it is horrendously
overpriced. Think of it this way: consider a 2d6 HKA (30 points). For 16
points, you can give it a 4" range (with 3 inches of stretching, no
noncombat). For 15 points, you can give it a 150" inch range (+1/2
Advantage "Ranged"). Which one would YOU buy?
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Subject: Re: Package Deals (Was: Characteristic Maxima)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 97 17:50:00 -0500
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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Mike Sprague
>While it's not clear in the BBB, if you look at Package Deals in some of
>the other books (e.g. Fantasy Hero) it seems that Disadvantages in
>Package Deals do _not_ apply toward a characters maximum Disadantage
>total. So in effect, they are additional free points that help pay for
>the Package Deal.
Just my two cents, but that can be a VERY dangerous practice. We used
that
in a game I played in for a while and ended up with REALLY big packages
that
payed back a considerable number of points and made for REALLY obscene
characters. In fact, it was SO bad I had to beg with my GM to get that
approach outlawed altogether.
PAX,
John
____________________________________________________________________
| Name: John P. Weatherman | Phone: |
| email: asahoshi@nr.infi.net | (H) (910) 785-1130 |
| fax: (910) 748-4632 | (O) (910) 545-2722 |
|_____________________________|____________________________________|
| He who walking on the sea could calm the bitter waves, who gives |
| life to the dying seeds of the earth; He who was able to loose |
| the mortal chains of death and after three days' darkness could |
| bring again to the upper world the brother of his sister Martha: |
| He, I beleive, will make Damasus rise again from the dust. |
| Pope St. Damasus I (c.305-384) |
|__________________________________________________________________|
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:03:07 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Go Go Gadget Banjo
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At 06:07 PM 7/2/97 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>>"Go Go Gadget Legs! Go Go Gadget Arms! Go Go Gadget Banjo!"
>>>
>>>Actually, I'm lying. I think you're right, for play balance purposes it
>>>should be overall. I just wanted an excuse to say "Go Go Gadget Banjo!"
>>>Does anyone know what power the Gadget Banjo would fall under, btw?
>>>Change Environment?
>>
>> I'd tend to say Images, with appropriate Limitations such as Music Only.
>
>Hah! Who on the list remembers El Kabong? Gadget Banjo should be worth at
>least a couple of dice worth of Hand Attack. :-)
Yeah, that too.
And, arguably, a AVLD vs Hearing Flash Defense. ;-]
---
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X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 19:55:41 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: Package Deals (Was: Characteristic Maxima)
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At 05:50 PM 7/2/97 -0500, John P Weatherman wrote:
> Just my two cents, but that can be a VERY dangerous practice. We used
> that in a game I played in for a while and ended up with REALLY big
> packages that payed back a considerable number of points and made for
> REALLY obscene characters. In fact, it was SO bad I had to beg with my
> GM to get that approach outlawed altogether.
I have to ask: did the players create the packages, or the GM? In the
former case, you deserve what you get ...
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 20:34:16 -0500
From: Jerry & Jamie Nealis <jnealis@OnRamp.NET>
Reply-To: jnealis@OnRamp.NET
Subject: Stretching revisited
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Damn....... all this talk of TK with limitations and such..... who'd a
thunk? I may have to go back and rebuild a few villains. ;)
OK concensus here on the list seems to be that it's all just SFX
anyway..... which is what we came to in my group also.
Just a note....... we use the old 2pt rule on Stretching..... I
neglected to mention that b4...... sorry.
125" of stretching? Who needs that kind of reach? 2/10 (approx) of a
mile is pretty far....... I've never seen or played anything over 25"
Stretching and that was plenty......... what kind of power levels are
you guys playing?
And as for whether or not Streching is useless.... or even efficient.
The only useless power/skill/perk/talent/disad etc. is the one that does
nothing to advance the playing of the game, and if I was concerned about
efficiency I wouldn't waste my time playing games.
Building characters should be an exercise in creativity not math.
Jerry aka
Puzzleboy--Foxbat's Best Friend
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 12:12:24 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: HAPPYELF!!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Package Deals (Was: Characteristic Maxima)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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hows about - use EC? or has someone already said this?
At 07:55 PM 7/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
>At 05:50 PM 7/2/97 -0500, John P Weatherman wrote:
>> Just my two cents, but that can be a VERY dangerous practice. We used
>> that in a game I played in for a while and ended up with REALLY big
>> packages that payed back a considerable number of points and made for
>> REALLY obscene characters. In fact, it was SO bad I had to beg with my
>> GM to get that approach outlawed altogether.
>
>I have to ask: did the players create the packages, or the GM? In the
>former case, you deserve what you get ...
>
>--
>Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
>+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
>| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely. |
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> Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
>
>
Subject: Re: Package Deals (Was: Characteristic Maxima)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 97 21:54:43 -0500
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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Mike Sprague
>John P Weatherman wrote:
>>> the other books (e.g. Fantasy Hero) it seems that Disadvantages in
>>> Package Deals do _not_ apply toward a characters maximum Disadantage
>>> total. So in effect, they are additional free points that help pay
>>> for the Package Deal.
>>
>> Just my two cents, but that can be a VERY dangerous practice. We
>> used that in a game I played in for a while and ended up with
>> REALLY big packages that payed back a considerable number of points
>> and made for REALLY obscene characters. In fact, it was SO bad I
>> had to beg with my GM to get that approach outlawed altogether.
>
>Why did your GM write up Package Deals like that?
>
>Or was it the players? If so, remember that Package Deals are a GM's
>tool. Players do not normally write them up unless the GM asks them
>to. Still, the GM must approve them.
Some were submitted by players and approved by the GM, others were
written
up by the GM and, of course, approved by him also. The general problem
was, and remains, that if something is a complete enough concept to bother
with the package deal at all, it usually had a lot of skills and
disadvantages associated with it. In particular, a lot of them got into
various, very pricy, hunteds and psychological disads. They were all
legitimate, they were also quite out of control. The latter was the GMs
fault. However, he felt that, having made packages "self contained" he
was opligated to make sure that the package had "everything" that it
should
as a stand alone product, with disasterous results.
____________________________________________________________________
| Name: John P. Weatherman | Phone: |
| email: asahoshi@nr.infi.net | (H) (910) 785-1130 |
| fax: (910) 748-4632 | (O) (910) 545-2722 |
|_____________________________|____________________________________|
| He who walking on the sea could calm the bitter waves, who gives |
| life to the dying seeds of the earth; He who was able to loose |
| the mortal chains of death and after three days' darkness could |
| bring again to the upper world the brother of his sister Martha: |
| He, I beleive, will make Damasus rise again from the dust. |
| Pope St. Damasus I (c.305-384) |
|__________________________________________________________________|
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 03:11:41 +0000
Subject: Re: Damage Resistance(Powers that step on other powers' toes)
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-UID: 86
> At 11:12 AM 02/07/97 +0000, you wrote:
> >> At 11:54 PM 6/30/97 +0000, Filksinger wrote:
>
> I like to put my two cents in here, if you don't mind. I like
> armor, but I like Damage Resistance too. As GM I find uses for both
> that don't overlap(as much as two defenses can), nor are unbalanced.
>
Well, I don't know if I would drop Damage Resistance. There are
reasons I don't like it at times, but one of my favorite house
interpretations uses DR. (A house interpretation is where a real
world item is designed by Hero, but I have my own version, still
strictly within the rules)
That interpretation is ballistic vests, of the sort worn by police.
If you wear a ballistic vest, a bullet may not penetrate, but it can
still break ribs or severely bruise you. So, rather than 9 PD Armor,
only stops half STUN, vests in my world are 6PD Armor, 6PD Damage
Resistance. IOW, if you wear the vest, the tougher you are, the less
it damages you when you get shot.
Note that it would take an above average .44 Magnum (2d6 RKA) to do
body damage to the average man, and it would be almost impossible to
kill him, even using hit locations, so long as the bullet hit the
vest. This also makes the vest less effective at stopping normal
damage BODY than the present version. I prefer this, because under
the present system, a baseball bat can do more BODY damage to a man
wearing plate and chain armor than to a man wearing a vest. In the
real world, soft armor doesn't do that.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 20:23:41 -0700
From: Mike Sprague <sprague@vivanet.com>
Reply-To: sprague@vivanet.com
Subject: Re: Characteristic Maxima
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> If that happens then the one responsible for building the
> package screwed up. Ideally, the advantages of a package
> should be balanced by equivalent disadvantages. To wit, my
> example: if Strength and Constitution maxima are increased to
> 25, then Dexterity maximum reduced to 15 will give the package
> a cost of 0.
While I agree with your first sentence, the example is not correct.
Per the BBB, the above Package Deal looks like this:
-------------------------------------------------
Skills
-------------------------------------------------
Increased STR Char Maxima (25) 5
Increased CON Char Maxima (25) 10
-------------------------------------------------
Disadvantages
-------------------------------------------------
Package Bonus 3
Decreased DEX Char Maxima (15) 8 (rounded up)
-------------------------------------------------
Total Package Cost 4
-------------------------------------------------
Remember that you only get half the points when decreasing a
Characteristic Maxima. To get this to balance, you need to drop the DEX
to 13, which will result in a net cost of 1 point. It's even further if
you do not apply the Package Bonus.
~ Mike
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 20:26:45 -0700
From: Mike Sprague <sprague@VivaNET.com>
Reply-To: sprague@VivaNET.com
Subject: Re: Package Deals (Was: Characteristic Maxima)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-UID: 67
Bryan Berggren wrote:
>> Thus, if your doing something like a racial Package Deal and
>> modifying Characteristic Maxima, including a racial Disadantage
>> helps balance the Package Deal.
>
> Irrelevant, though -- after all, nothing requires a racial Package
> to contain Increased or Decreased CHAR Maxima.
That comment _is_ irrelevant!! :-) While it's true, racial package
deals do not require changing Char Maxima, I was only using that as an
example of where it might be used. What I wrote is still relevant.
> And as I said before, if you put in real CHAR instead of CHAR
> Maxima, the Package Cost usually isn't going to change at all,
So ... since the cost doesn't change, you might was well use the
Package Deal, if it suits your (the GM) needs. :-)
> AND you will always see an effect on the characters who take that
> package, unlike the "standard" Dwarf who had to pay 23 points
> (or pay 10 points and accept 13 points of disads, depending on
> how you look at it) to get nada.
(I see it as the second viewpont). I agree with what you wrote, but
must point out that your looking at it with blinders on. Your looking
at it from a players cost blancing perspective and saying what do I get
out of it.
Look at the whole picture though. The GM defines a Pacakage Deal (and
I'm going to stick with a racial one here, because it makes a lot of
sense). All members of this race have certain characteristic maxima,
abilities and Disadvanges. This ties it all into one neat little
bundle, that hopefyully costs the player very little of his real points
... though it does add some disadvantages.
> Broke is broke is broke is broke.
But it's not! :-) It may be broke as in "it won't work," broke as in
"I can fix it," or broke as in "I can live with it." Package deals are
broken, but I think they are in one of the last two types of broke.
~ Mike
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 20:27:50 -0700
From: Mike Sprague <sprague@VivaNET.com>
Reply-To: sprague@VivaNET.com
Subject: Re: Package Deals (Was: Characteristic Maxima)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-UID: 68
John P Weatherman wrote:
>> the other books (e.g. Fantasy Hero) it seems that Disadvantages in
>> Package Deals do _not_ apply toward a characters maximum Disadantage
>> total. So in effect, they are additional free points that help pay
>> for the Package Deal.
>
> Just my two cents, but that can be a VERY dangerous practice. We
> used that in a game I played in for a while and ended up with
> REALLY big packages that payed back a considerable number of points
> and made for REALLY obscene characters. In fact, it was SO bad I
> had to beg with my GM to get that approach outlawed altogether.
Why did your GM write up Package Deals like that?
Or was it the players? If so, remember that Package Deals are a GM's
tool. Players do not normally write them up unless the GM asks them
to. Still, the GM must approve them.
~ Mike
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 22:27:25 -0700
From: Mike Sprague <sprague@VivaNET.com>
Reply-To: sprague@VivaNET.com
Subject: Re: Package Deals (Was: Characteristic Maxima)
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John P Weatherman wrote:
> The general problem was, and remains, that if something is a
> complete enough concept to bother with the package deal at all,
> it usually had a lot of skills and disadvantages associated with
> it. In particular, a lot of them got into various, very pricy,
> hunteds and psychological disads. They were all legitimate, they
> were also quite out of control.
Maybe you guys took the concept too far. Package Deals "represent the
set of Skills, Disadvantages, and bonuses that a character would aqquire
because of membership in an organization, or from practicing a certain
profession." Package Deals "represent the character's experiences, or
minimum requirements for an organization."
I would thing that this means that the typical Package Deals contains
the _minimum_ required Skills and Knowledge needed to fit the concept.
Not everything that might go along with it belons there. It says you
must have at least these things if you are to be part of 'X'. More is
fine, but it just doesn't belong in the Package Deal.
I would think Package Deals would contain minnimal Psych Disads, and
would rarely contain hunteds. Not that they couldn't though, I just
don't think they would be common.
Sheesh! I am not a fan of package Deals, but here I find myself arguing
in favor of them. :-)
~ Mike
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 22:34:49 -0700
From: Mike Sprague <sprague@VivaNET.com>
Reply-To: sprague@VivaNET.com
Subject: Re: Package Deals (Was: Characteristic Maxima)
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HAPPYELF!!! wrote:
>
> hows about - use EC? or has someone already said this?
It apears that the Package Deal was being used like an EC for Skills.
By the book however, EC won't work because Skills are a Special power.
Okay, so this says Skills can't go into an EC witout GM's permission.
:-) I think using an EC is more dangerous than Package Deals though,
when it comes for the potential for abuse.
Changing Characteristic Maxima is _only_ listed under Package Deals, and
as such, also don't belong in an EC.
~ Mike
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:47:44 +1000 (EST)
X-Sender: bryce144@fan.net.au
From: Len Undy <bryce144@fan.net.au>
Subject: Damage Resistance(Powers that step on other powers' toes)
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At 11:12 AM 02/07/97 +0000, you wrote:
>> At 11:54 PM 6/30/97 +0000, Filksinger wrote:
>> >Good idea. I personally plan to drop Damage Resistance myself, as too
>> >many characters end up with it, because it is so cheap, even if it
>> >doesn't fit their character conception.
>>
>> Well, no. Damage Resistance is necessary. Some character concepts
>> require natural resistant defenses.
>
>Armor can be defined as natural, if you wish. The special effect
>could be your skin, rigid or otherwise, or anything else you wish.
I like to put my two cents in here, if you don't mind. I like armor, but I
like Damage Resistance too. As GM I find uses for both that don't
overlap(as much as two defenses can), nor are unbalanced.
Damage Resistance does not give you free PD & ED like armor, and is in fact
limited to your own "natural" PD & ED. Thus DR is cheeper then armor, but
doesn't give as much back.
Hmm. Lets look at a 25STR character.
10 PD Damage Risistance cost 5 points. Must have at least 10 normal PD
which cost 5points. total = 10 points
10 PD Armor cost 15 points. But gives the character 15 normal PD.
Armor cost 5 points more, but gives 5 extra normal PD.
Looking at this I see that the cost is balanced, but that Damage Resistance.
Personally, I might just drop Armor, instead of Damage Resistance.
On a side note, as a house rule, we have Damage Resistance not affect Knock
Back at all. So characters with really high Damage Resistance can still be
knockback through building, without being hurt.
Just talking about nothing.
Bryce
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 23:04:02 -0700
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: icepirat@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Damage Resistance(Powers that step on other powers' toes)
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Len Undy wrote:
>
> Looking at this I see that the cost is balanced, but that Damage
> Resistance.
> Personally, I might just drop Armor, instead of Damage Resistance.
I would say the cost is equal. It's just that you can make your natural
PD&ED resistant with
Damage Resistance, not with Armor. That's why I'd drop Armor before
Damage Resistance.
> On a side note, as a house rule, we have Damage Resistance not affect
> Knock Back at all. So characters with really high Damage Resistance can
> still be knockback through building, without being hurt.
Err what? I've heard of house rules where you subtract 1" for every
body that gets past your resistance. In the BBB, damage resistance does
not affect Knockback at all. There is Knockback resistance.
-Mark Lemming
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:20:51 +1000 (EST)
X-Sender: bryce144@fan.net.au
From: Len Undy <bryce144@fan.net.au>
Subject: Re: Damage Resistance(Powers that step on other powers' toes)
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At 11:04 PM 02/07/97 -0700, you wrote:
>> On a side note, as a house rule, we have Damage Resistance not affect
>> Knock Back at all. So characters with really high Damage Resistance can
>> still be knockback through building, without being hurt.
>
>Err what? I've heard of house rules where you subtract 1" for every
>body that gets past your resistance. In the BBB, damage resistance does
>not affect Knockback at all. There is Knockback resistance.
>
>-Mark Lemming
Um...ignore that last bit, about the house rule. Opps. Sort of links to
another house rule about armor, and knockback.....
Bryce
From: ErolB1@aol.com
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 07:09:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Transform: I changed my mind
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In a message dated 97-07-03 03:56:36 EDT, jprins@interhop.net quoted someone
as saying:
>>Thus, though I now accept Vox's claim that it's OK to add points with a
>>transform, his example of a vampire-bite Transform: "Normal Person Into
>>Vampire" is, IMHO, *not* valid.
>
>Improper logic. There's nothing in the Power which makes the character
>being transformed into a FOLLOWER. You have to do that on your own, ergo
>you're not creating something useful, you're creating something potentially
>dangerous which you hope can be useful.
Suppose the wizard Bob the Undying buys "Transform: Character into character
w Psych Lim - 'Loyal servant of Bob the Undying' (total, all the time)." By
the 'can't increase points' rule, this would be perfectly legal, and would
give Bob a follower/ally type without Bob having to buy the Perk.
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:49:34 PDT
From: "Salmon,David" <David_Salmon@mc.xerox.com>
Subject: Multipowers ... getting cost correctly figured
Posting-date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 08:42:48 -0500
Priority: normal
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Hi,
I have a question that my gaming group has been arguing about for quite
some time now. I hope someone can help me/us...
Q: How do you correctly compute the cost of a Multipower (and slots)
with limitations?
Info: I would like to have a limitation applied to the entire
multipower so that any power made through it has this limitation. I
would also like to have other limitations applied to some of the
slots. Here is a silly example but it gets the point across. If the
actual limitation values are incorrect, I'm sorry. I am writing this
from memory so just go with what I put here for simplicity.
Ex) Dough-Boy - Has the powers of bread dough. He can pull parts of
himself off and use it as a weapon.
100 active point Bread Dough Multipower, requires gestures to
manipulate the dough (-1/4)
Slot 1:Ultra - Energy Blast vs PD (Bread Ball) - 20d6
Range based on STR (-1/2)
Slot 2: Ultra - Entangle 6d6 (covers victim in raw dough)
Sticky (+1/2)
Range based on STR (-1/2)
Entangle has 1 DEF (-1/2)
Slot 3: Ultra - Energy Blast vs PD (covers head with dough to suffocate
victim) - 8d6
NND (+1)
Stops SIGHT sense group (+1/2)
I believe the cost of the base Multipower would be 80 Points. That is
not really what is disputed. The real question is: What would be the
cost of the slots and how did you come up with that cost? The way I
figure it, the base cost of the slots should be 10 (because they are
ultra slots) and any limitations should be applied to the cost of 10
to figure the real cost of the slot. The way the other guy figures it,
the base cost of each slot should be 8 because the Gestures limitation
reduces the real cost of the Multipower from 100 to 80. Who is right?
Are we both wrong? Help would greatly be appreciated!!! Replies can be
sent as a reply to this message or to davews@cyberdude.com.
...Dave S.
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:08:57 -0400 (EDT)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law
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>> >If we're grasping at straws for a perk of stretching, howabout this one:
>> >It could be looped around behind someone for a surprise/rear attack
>> >(something you can't do with TK without it being bought as Indirect).
>>
>> Actually, no you couldn't. Nowhere is this ability mentioned as part
>> of the power - i.e. you have to buy the Indirect advantage for it if
>> you want to do this.
>
>I have one word for you - elbows.
Elbows seem to be a pretty direct way of attacking. I'd argue that Mr.
Fantastic has 'indirect' bought on his Stretching, so he can pull off those
'attack from behind' maneuvers. I see 'standard' stretching more like a
telescopicing unit would function - straight lines out from the body only.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone
else's house?"
-NHS #56
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 08:33:27 -0700
From: Mike Sprague <sprague@VivaNET.com>
Reply-To: sprague@VivaNET.com
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Damage Resistance(Powers that step on other powers' toes)
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Len Undy wrote:
>> At 11:54 PM 6/30/97 +0000, Filksinger wrote:
>> Good idea. I personally plan to drop Damage Resistance myself, as too
>> many characters end up with it, because it is so cheap, even if it
>> doesn't fit their character conception.
>
> Damage Resistance does not give you free PD & ED like armor, and is
> in fact limited to your own "natural" PD & ED. Thus DR is cheeper
> then armor, but doesn't give as much back.
>
> [Text deleted]
>
> Looking at this I see that the cost is balanced, but that Damage
> Resistance. Personally, I might just drop Armor, instead of
> Damage Resistance.
I agree with most of the follow ups on this comment. Damage Resistance
is very Balanced with Armor, and serves a purpose in the game.
I have very seriously considered dropping both Armor and Force Field
(and maybe Force Wall), and changing Damage Resistance into an
Advantage. One would then buy defense as normal PD and ED (buying
Characteristics as Powers, though maybe a new Power called Defense would
be needed to get around Special Powers in Power Frameworks), adding
Damage Resistance if it is to be resistant, then adding any other
Advantages or Limitations to match the effect you want.
~ Mike
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Re: Transform: I changed my mind
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:06:00 -0400 (EDT)
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> Suppose the wizard Bob the Undying buys "Transform: Character into character
> w Psych Lim - 'Loyal servant of Bob the Undying' (total, all the time)." By
> the 'can't increase points' rule, this would be perfectly legal, and would
> give Bob a follower/ally type without Bob having to buy the Perk.
>
> Erol K. Bayburt
> Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
>
This would be valid, but very few GM's would allow Bob the Undying (tm)
as a PC. There are all sorts of things that you can do that are legal
in Champs, but which are obscene and evil and should only be used by
NPC's, if at all. One of these day's, I'll post "Destroys Cities Man",
which is an insanely powerful and legal character I built on 100 + 150,
and without any stop sign or magnifying glass powers or advantages.
This guy is so beyond the pale, I wouldn't even use him as an NPC
vs. 500pts PC's, let alone allow a PC to play him.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that lots of things are legal, but
(in my best Mike Nelson voice) "beeeee careful."
-Eric
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Char Maxima for Kids & Teens
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:14:37 -0400 (EDT)
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Does anyone know if there is a chart somewhere (official or not)
whith char maxima for teens and children of different age levels?
-Eric
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: The Crossbreed in Astro City #9
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:17:47 -0400 (EDT)
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For those who are interested in religous supergroups, it
looks like the Crossbreed will make a prominant appearance
in Astro City #9 (they're on the cover). AC #8 just came out
so #9 should be out in a month or so.
-Eric
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 13:09:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: aregalad@umiami.ir.miami.edu
Subject: Dragonfly's Benchmarks on the Web!
Cc: Bryant Berggren <ludator@softfarm.com&>
Bryce Berggren <ghost@softfarm.com>
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Howdy Folks!
Some of you may remember me. Way back when HERO games asked for the
mailing list's input concerning what was then to be HERO 5th Edition, I
suggested that benchmarks be established. Since then I have been working
on my own version of what these should look like. Real life kept
interrupting, but I finally finished the project (at least version 1.0)
and have put it on the web. Before I give the address, however, a few
comments:
1) The work is not REALLY mine in the sense that it borrows HEAVILY from
DC Heroes, Marvel Superheroes, advice given to me by friends and HERO
Mailing List members and even a little bit from White Wolf (finally found
SOME use for that system for their Comeliness description).
2) My vision of what benchmarks should be makes for characters with lower
stats than most published HERO characters - especially where DEX and SPD
are concerned.
3) Examples are given for many characters from Marvel and DC Comics. Most
of these are direct conversions from the MSH and DC Heroes roleplaying
games, but in a handful of cases I used my own judgement where I thought
theirs was faulty.
4) I'm SURE that there are problems with my work. These probably take the
form of spelling errors, typos, web page organization (this is my first
ever), benchmark descriptions and conceptual problems. I'm willing to
listen to ALL input, so don't be shy.
Anyway, you can take a look at the benchmarks by going to:
http://www.library.miami.edu/staff/regalado/BENCHweb.html
Take care,
Dragonfly
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 03 Jul 97 17:29:00 GMT
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of
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h > >> >If we're grasping at straws for a perk of stretching, howabout
h > this one:
h > >> >It could be looped around behind someone for a surprise/rear
h > attack
h > >> >(something you can't do with TK without it being bought as
h > Indirect).
.....
h > Mr. Fantastic has 'indirect' bought on his Stretching, so he can pull off
h > those 'attack from behind' maneuvers. I see 'standard' stretching more
h > a telescopicing unit would function - straight lines out from the body
h > only.
h >
There's no reason a stretching character couldn't go for the occasional
surpise manuever like that. It's certainly not the same thing as
Indirect (which can bypass Force Walls and a lot of other things), it's
more comprable to bouncing an EB. The kind of thing that would give
a 1-3 CV bonus, not reduce the victim to 1/2 DCV like an Invisible attack,
or conceal your position, like an indirect attack. Would give the
Stretcher a lot of latitude in determining the direction of KB, though.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 03 Jul 97 17:42:02 GMT
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of
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h > >I've already thought of a few that I allow in my games - though
h > >even with these, no one has ever built a Stretching character. <sigh>
h >
h >
h > While the Stretching maneuvers you listed are nice, I do have to point
h > out
h > that they're essentially advantages of the *special effect* of Reed
h > Richards
h > style stretching, not the Stretching power itself. Machine Man or Doc
h > Ock
h > aren't really going to be pulling Slingshots or Fly Swatters, for
h > example.
Absolutely right. The very name of the power does suggest the Reed
Richards F/X, but there are a lot of other possibilities. Some might
not be able to use the full slate of manuevers (and might deserve a
-1/4 limitation - like 'Beam' for EBs) others might not be able to
use any of them (-1/2?). I'd just like to see any player come to
me with a Stretching character. :)
Still, sweeping a long robotic tentacle through a small area could
be good for a fly-swatter type bonus, and rapidly extending legs
could help your leaping distance - though it wouldn't work quite
like the slingshot manuever, and without a definite Stretching feel
and restrictions might be better as simple superleap.
Anyway Stretching needs help.
___
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 03 Jul 97 17:49:04 GMT
Subject: Re: Char Maxima for Kids
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h > I once had an optional set of Characteristic Maxima and such
h > for a
h > Youth Disadvantage, similar in design to the Age disadvantage already
h > in
h > the game. I have been unable to find my copy of it, but perhaps
h > someone
h > else out there can remember what I am talking about and re-post it to
h > the
h > list?
h >
h > David
Well, this is my version from the infamous Variants file on
Red October (which I really have to update, it doesn't have
my new Regeneration version, and the END reserve section is
really bad).
Don't know if it's the one you're thinking of:
Age:
An age disadvantage can also be used to represent a
particularly youthful character:
Char. Adult Youth Teenager Child Infant
(21+) (16-20) (13-17) (6-12) (5-)
STR 20 18 15 10 5
DEX 20 20 18 15 10
CON 20 23 20 15 13
BOD 20 20 18 15 15
INT 20 18 15 10 8
EGO 20 18 15 15 8
PRE 20 18 15 10 5
COM 20 20 20 20 20
PD 8 7 6 4 3
ED 8 7 6 4 3
SPD 4 4 4 3 2
REC 10 12 11 10 10
END 50 60 50 40 30
STN 50 45 40 30 30
Run 10 10 10 7 3
Swim 5 5 5 3 1
Pts: 0 3 5 10 20
As with the standard age limitation, it is possible for a
character to take a disadvantage associated with a greater or
lesser age than his actual chronological age.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Characteristic Maxima
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes:
MS> Which seems to be a bit extreme as a requirement. Presumably then, you
MS> also treat package deals as seperate entities, in which the the final
MS> package cost is written down as a single sum on the character sheet?
This is correct. A package deal is just that, a single package subsuming
all the advantages and disadvantages of the package. The cost of the
elements of the package are irrelevant for calculating character totals;
only the cost of the package itself should be factored.
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
\ head.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Characteristic Maxima
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "BB" == Bryan Berggren <ludator@softfarm.com> writes:
BB> First of all, Rat, there's no law saying packages have to have a 0
BB> cost. In fact, neither package presented for races in the BBB itself
BB> have a 0 cost.
True, there is none, and most packages will have a nonzero cost.
BB> Second, you seem to be missing the salient point here: increasing CHAR
BB> Maximas in a package simply ISN'T an "advantage" -- those points do not
BB> benefit the character in any way.
Then a character with the Normal Characteristic Maxima or Age disadvantages
yet has no characteristics that exceed those maxima is not limited by the
disadvantages. But he still gets the points for them because of the
campaign world around him says he should. The disadvantages restrict his
potential. Likewise, the maxima adjustments for package deals may restrict
a character's potential without actually affecting him directly. This is
the "price" of being something other than a standard human in an
humanocentric game.
BB> You're increasing the cost of the package without providing any
BB> commensurate benefits to the character -- or, in other words, requiring
BB> him to throw points away for nothing.
That is not what I am doing. What I am doing -- and what the purpose of
the maxima shifts is for -- is to set guidelines for *all* of a type that
are not standard humans. What should be happening is that a standard human
will pay more points for a 25 Strength than a dwarf would, simply because
of the physiology of the two species. But that same stocky frame that
allows for more efficient use of muscle and bone mass makes it less agile.
This is reflected in a lower maximum for Dexterity: a dwarf will pay more
for an 20 Dexterity than a human.
A properly constructed package will never force a character to waste
points. The fantasy dwarf example I have been using will have some
increased maxima for some characteristics and some reduced maxima for
others. The net cost for these adjustments should be 0. A dwarf's
potential is different than a human's potential, so it is reflected in the
package, but it does not cost him anything extra if he does not approach
that level.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Characteristic Maxima
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 03 Jul 1997 14:19:56 -0400
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>>>>> "MS" == Mike Sprague <sprague@vivanet.com> writes:
MS> Remember that you only get half the points when decreasing a
MS> Characteristic Maxima.
This seems fundamentally wrong to me. One does not get half the points for
"selling" a Characteristic below base or calculated value, so why should
reducing the maximum net you half of what a comessurate increase costs?
Anyway, if you want to do it by the book for the math make the increased
Strength and Constitution maxima 23 instead of 25. That should get a net
cost of 0, I think.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law
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Date: 03 Jul 1997 14:22:44 -0400
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>>>>> "DT" == Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org> writes:
DT> (a) can't be Missile Deflected/Reflected
Block. 'nuff said.
DT> (b) Martial Arts add, and have great special effects to boot
DT> (Imagine someone grabbing you from 10" away, and pulling you right
DT> into a huge anvil-fist coming the other way)
Stretching is frequently used in the construction of many melee weapons
such as pole arms and chain/whip/rope weapons.
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X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 (Unverified)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 14:29:58 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: Stretching revisited
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(*Audible Sigh*)
At 08:34 PM 7/2/97 -0500, Jerry & Jamie Nealis wrote:
>125" of stretching? Who needs that kind of reach? 2/10 (approx) of a
>mile is pretty far....... I've never seen or played anything over 25"
>Stretching and that was plenty......... what kind of power levels are
>you guys playing?
I've never said anyone needs 125" of Stretching. What I've said is that you
can get the EQUIVALENT of 125" of Stretching for about 62 points, compared
to the 625 points it would cost you normally. To me, this is a gigantic
clue that Stretching probably isn't worth the 5 points per inch you're being
charged for it, especially since TK is based on an obvious paradigm well in
line with the other powers (effectively being "STR, Ranged") while
Stretching seems to have been pulled out of hat. Maybe 1 point per inch is
fairer.
>And as for whether or not Streching is useless.... or even efficient.
>The only useless power/skill/perk/talent/disad etc. is the one that does
>nothing to advance the playing of the game, and if I was concerned about
>efficiency I wouldn't waste my time playing games.
>
>Building characters should be an exercise in creativity not math.
That's right: players SHOULD only have to worry about their concepts,
because the math SHOULD be taking care of itself. But it this case, the
math isn't pulling its weight.
I'm a Consistency Cultist. The points are there for balance; in theory, 10
points should be 10 points, no matter where you spend it -- that's why HERO
uses a point-based system instead of a random generation or fiat modeling
system like V&V or Marvel Superheroes. So when one player can spend a tenth
as many points to get the same thing as another player, effectively, alarm
bells should go off, because it means that there's a kink in the system
favoring a certain kind of character concept over another, above and beyond
their game effectiveness. There shouldn't be any poor cousins among
character conceptions.
In short, if I didn't care about the math at ALL, I'd be playing Theatrix.
When you get down to brass tacks, "the math" is the primary building block
of the whole rule system; a game is only as good as its "math".
==
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Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 14:30:01 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: Package Deals (Was: Characteristic Maxima)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 10:27 PM 7/2/97 -0700, Mike Sprague wrote:
>I would thing that this means that the typical Package Deals contains
>the _minimum_ required Skills and Knowledge needed to fit the concept.
>Not everything that might go along with it belons there. It says you
>must have at least these things if you are to be part of 'X'. More is
>fine, but it just doesn't belong in the Package Deal.
This is pretty much how I handle it in my games. Package Deals are based
around the idea of "what do *everyone* of X social group have in common?"
Therefore, a Doctor Package would include Paramedic, SS: Medicine, PS:
Doctor, and the license Perk; it would not include "Fringe Benefit: Country
Club Membership (1 pt.)" although many doctors do in fact have this, enough
to make it seem stereotypical. Essentially, a Package Deal is the GM's
solution to making sure characters have all their teeth.
>I would think Package Deals would contain minnimal Psych Disads, and
>would rarely contain hunteds. Not that they couldn't though, I just
>don't think they would be common.
Again, agreed. When I worked up my Genocide Agent Training package deal, I
was very specific about *not* putting in any of the anti-mutant type Psych
Lims in, since those would conceivably vary amongst Agents (Agent X might be
a total fanatic, while Agent Y might start having doubts about the
organizational rhetoric, etc.)
==
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Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 14:30:03 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the
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At 05:06 PM 7/2/97 GMT, Opal wrote:
>I've already thought of a few that I allow in my games - though
>even with these, no one has ever built a Stretching character. <sigh>
While the Stretching maneuvers you listed are nice, I do have to point out
that they're essentially advantages of the *special effect* of Reed Richards
style stretching, not the Stretching power itself. Machine Man or Doc Ock
aren't really going to be pulling Slingshots or Fly Swatters, for example.
--
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Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 14:30:05 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: Transform: I changed my mind
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At 07:09 AM 7/3/97 -0400, ErolB1@aol.com wrote:
>> Improper logic. There's nothing in the Power which makes the character
>> being transformed into a FOLLOWER. You have to do that on your own,
>> ergo you're not creating something useful, you're creating something
>> potentially dangerous which you hope can be useful.
>
> Suppose the wizard Bob the Undying buys "Transform: Character into
> character w Psych Lim - 'Loyal servant of Bob the Undying' (total, all
> the time)." By the 'can't increase points' rule, this would be perfectly
> legal, and would give Bob a follower/ally type without Bob having to
> buy the Perk.
Well, it would only be "perfectly legal" in the same sense that my sister
Jodi thinks it's "perfectly legal" to shoof around Illinois blacktops at 60+
mph. Since presumably we are either talking about a campaign you are GMing
or one I am GMing, and neither of us would presumably want this ability in
our campaigns (you seem to be implying it is a bad thing that you can do
this, and I don't like enslaving Transforms), it becomes illegal, because
Transforms don't work without GM approval. :]
==
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Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 14:30:07 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: Transform: I changed my mind
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-UID: 102
At 12:06 PM 7/3/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote:
>> Suppose the wizard Bob the Undying buys "Transform: Character into
>> character w/ Psych Lim - 'Loyal servant of Bob the Undying' (total,
>> all the time)." By the 'can't increase points' rule, this would be
>> perfectly legal, and would give Bob a follower/ally type without Bob
>> having to buy the Perk.
>
>This would be valid, but very few GM's would allow Bob the Undying (tm)
>as a PC. There are all sorts of things that you can do that are legal
>in Champs, but which are obscene and evil and should only be used by
>NPC's, if at all. One of these day's, I'll post "Destroys Cities Man",
>which is an insanely powerful and legal character I built on 100 + 150,
>and without any stop sign or magnifying glass powers or advantages.
>This guy is so beyond the pale, I wouldn't even use him as an NPC
>vs. 500pts PC's, let alone allow a PC to play him.
>
>I guess what I'm trying to say is that lots of things are legal, but
>(in my best Mike Nelson voice) "beeeee careful."
And remember, too, that Transform is never really "perfectly" legal. The
entire Power fits into the same category as Special Powers in frameworks,
Talents with Limitations, et al. In essence, it's the Power with two Stop
Signs. :]
==
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Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 12:38:00 -0700
From: Mike Sprague <sprague@VivaNET.com>
Reply-To: sprague@VivaNET.com
Subject: Re: Char Maxima for Kids & Teens
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Eric Burns wrote:
>
> Does anyone know if there is a chart somewhere (official or not)
> whith char maxima for teens and children of different age levels?
No, but maybe there should be. As close as you can come are the
"Average Individuals" on pages 133 and 134 of the BBB, and that just
shows average stats for different types of individuals.
~ Mike
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: RzrshrP927@aol.com
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:53:12 -0400 (EDT)
X-To: hero-l@october.com
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the
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I let my players use unused Stretching to add to HTH attacks, like the use of
turning of shrinking to add to damage. I just calculate it as a move by with
the unused stretching as velocity but with the regular Strike modifiers not
move-by.
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 15:03:03 -0700
From: Mike Sprague <sprague@VivaNET.com>
Reply-To: sprague@VivaNET.com
Subject: Re: Characteristic Maxima
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >>>>> "MS" == Mike Sprague <sprague@vivanet.com> writes:
>
> MS> Remember that you only get half the points when decreasing a
> MS> Characteristic Maxima.
>
> This seems fundamentally wrong to me. One does not get half the
> points for "selling" a Characteristic below base or calculated
> value, so why should reducing the maximum net you half of what a
> comessurate increase costs?
I have always felt so also.
I believe designers set up changes to characteristic Maxima so that you
pay the same total points (or more) for your characteristics, compared
to one where characteristics were not changed. The fact that you can
add Disadvantages (and the package bonus) helps neutralize this cost,
which is why I can live with the Package Bonus the way it is.
The good thing about Package deals is that they tie something together
in a neat little package, which helps the GM control the feel of things
like organization members and races (species, to be more exact).
When messing with converting Star Wars to Hero system, I wanted to use
Package Deals for the Aliens that were available to Characters. I
decided that I would fix how Package Deals worked ... but I didn't like
what I came up with, and ended up sticking with the origional rules.
Things I messed with were:
1) Getting full value for Characteristic Maxima lowered.
While I still think this is a good idea, I ended up with
negative costs on Package Deals too often. Were I making
up species myself instead of following writeups from
another book, this might have worked.
2) Raising a Characteristic Max also raises the starting value.
Lowering a Characteristic Max also lowers the starting value.
This seemed like a good idea, but after messing with it a
little while, I decided I didn't like it. I can't remember
why though. I may have to revisit it.
3) Ignoring the way the rules worked for changing char Max. and
just making sure things balanced out. This turned out more
difficult to do than I had anticipated, and when it came down
to it, was not a lot different from the normal rules.
I will probably still continue to mess with changing Character Maxima in
package deals, but as long as you are careful in writing up a package
deal, the existing rules will work.
~ Mike
From: flacksd@evron.com
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:05:24 -0500
Subject: Rieki (was Re: A scenario idea, and a question)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>> Ever heard of Rieki ? (I think that is how they spell it)
>> I have seen and experienced it. It seems to be able to releave pain
>> and small injuries. I have only meet people at the begining of
>> their Rieki trainning, so I don't know exactly what they claim Rieki
>> can do. They do seem to claim that some healing can occur from
>> proper laying on of hands, as it were. Rieki requires training and
>> skill, but does not seem to require any religous bent.
>
>Nothing that can't be done by hypnotherapists, Neurolinguistic
>Programming practitioners, or people using visualization to fight
>cancer and other diseases.
>
I have seen Rieki used succesfully on a dog. The dog was neither
hypnotized, visualizing, etc. but it did appear to be no longer in pain. The
dog has an artificial tendon, and what amounts to serious arthritis in her
right rear leg, but after the Rieki she was frisky like a puppy.
Unfortanently the effects only lasted for a few hours, but then this was
only level 1 Rieki. From what I understand, Rieki users do not claim to be
able to heal wounds at a touch, etc.
I think that the history of Rieki (as I understand it) is more germain
to the question of religion and powers. Someone (,I forget who,) was
interested in the old biblical stories of healing hands, and dicided to see if
it could work for real. He did some historical research. This led to the
discovery of some ancient oriental techniches that eventually became
modern Rieki.
So this non-denominational, eastern, possibly new-age, healing
technique was inspired by christian religious teachings. Religous
diversity at work.
Daniel Flacks
dflacks@evron.com
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:09:38 +1000 (EST)
X-Sender: bryce144@fan.net.au
From: Len Undy <bryce144@fan.net.au>
Subject: Re: Damage Resistance(Powers that step on other powers' toes)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 03:11 AM 03/07/97 +0000, you wrote:
>That interpretation is ballistic vests, of the sort worn by police.
>If you wear a ballistic vest, a bullet may not penetrate, but it can
>still break ribs or severely bruise you. So, rather than 9 PD Armor,
>only stops half STUN, vests in my world are 6PD Armor, 6PD Damage
>Resistance. IOW, if you wear the vest, the tougher you are, the less
>it damages you when you get shot.
>
>Note that it would take an above average .44 Magnum (2d6 RKA) to do
>body damage to the average man, and it would be almost impossible to
>kill him, even using hit locations, so long as the bullet hit the
>vest. This also makes the vest less effective at stopping normal
>damage BODY than the present version. I prefer this, because under
>the present system, a baseball bat can do more BODY damage to a man
>wearing plate and chain armor than to a man wearing a vest. In the
>real world, soft armor doesn't do that.
>
>Filksinger
>"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
This seems to work, and a clever idea. Still 6PD Damage Resistance is
fairly high(not that many cops have 6PD). Even with a PD of just 4, that's
10 damage that's going to be stopped by the vest. Are they really that good
in real life?
On a side note, I just want to ask something.
When you take killing damage, how is the Stun worked out? We've done it by
two ways...
1> Heroman is hit by a Killing Attack that does 25 BODY. According to the
Stun Multiplier (x3) that works out to be 75 Stun. He then subtracts his 25
PD away from that. Note that only 10 Body got through his defenses so he
takes 10 Body & 50 Stun(Ouch)
2> Heroman is hit by a Killing Attack that does 25 Body. His Damage
Resistance stops 15 Body, so he only takes 10. I then multiply that by 3,
making it 45 Stun. I then take away my 25PD. Heroman takes 10 BODY & 20 STUN.
Which way is correct?
(We tend to use type 1 in Fantasy campaigns, because we feel that Plate Mail
doesn't do much to soak the Stun. In fact I think we use it for all
Physical Killing Attacks. Type 2 is used for energy attacks mostly[less
impact]).
Bryce
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:12:20 -0400
From: seleena@fred.net (E. David Miller)
Subject: Re: Package Deals
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 2:30 PM 7/3/97, Bryan Berggren wrote:
>At 10:27 PM 7/2/97 -0700, Mike Sprague wrote:
>>I would thing that this means that the typical Package Deals contains
>>the _minimum_ required Skills and Knowledge needed to fit the concept.
>>Not everything that might go along with it belons there. It says you
>>must have at least these things if you are to be part of 'X'. More is
>>fine, but it just doesn't belong in the Package Deal.
>
>This is pretty much how I handle it in my games. Package Deals are based
>around the idea of "what do *everyone* of X social group have in common?"
>Therefore, a Doctor Package would include Paramedic, SS: Medicine, PS:
>Doctor, and the license Perk; it would not include "Fringe Benefit: Country
>Club Membership (1 pt.)" although many doctors do in fact have this, enough
>to make it seem stereotypical. Essentially, a Package Deal is the GM's
>solution to making sure characters have all their teeth.
This was a subject several months ago on the list. The basic point
is this: The Doctor package deal I designed does not include country club
membership. And the wealth perk (5 pts), is listed as optional. Things
that might come up on a very regular basis, but are not required for the
baseline of the membership or profession are listed as OPTIONAL. But this
listed skills you mention for a Doctor just aren't sufficient to be a
doctor. If my doctor only had those skills, regardless of what level he
had those skills bought to, I would never go to the doctor. I would far
rather treat myself. The point that John W. was trying to make is that the
multitude of items bought in these package deals _belonged_ in the package
deals. Hunteds, Watcheds, what have you, were all put in at the minimum
level for the package deal that fit with the conception of the profession
or organization.
>>I would think Package Deals would contain minnimal Psych Disads, and
>>would rarely contain hunteds. Not that they couldn't though, I just
>>don't think they would be common.
>
>Again, agreed. When I worked up my Genocide Agent Training package deal, I
>was very specific about *not* putting in any of the anti-mutant type Psych
>Lims in, since those would conceivably vary amongst Agents (Agent X might be
>a total fanatic, while Agent Y might start having doubts about the
>organizational rhetoric, etc.)
To then relate, the PDM (Paranormal Defense Militia, my campaign's
relative to Genocide) Agent package deal does contain the psych lim
"Distrust/Hate/Fear Paranormals", but only at the Common Moderate level.
There are those who simply feel that way, but are completely under control,
and joined this group. Then there are those who are totally psycho about
it, who could, as is listed as optional, buy it at a higher level. And
there are those who, because of their different duties and assignments,
will run in to paranormals much more frequently, who would then take it at
the Very Common level.
For my own campaign (now a re-boot of the one John W. mentioned), I
have stopped treating Package Deals as self-contained entities. Of course,
I suppose it helps that I do not use an absolute cap on the total
disadvantages or powers of a character. But the point is still valid; if
package deals are used effectively to model closely to real-life
professions and skills, and the same level of detail is used in writing up
the disadvantages, one can end up with many packages with _negative_ point
totals. This means you get everything that is in this package deal, and
here are more points to spend on more skills, powers, and equipment. That
was just too much, and the breaking point was reached. And so, I consulted
with John, and we both came to the conclusion that the only answer was to
de-encapsulate the Package Deals, and maintain category-by-category caps on
total disadvantages, so that proliferations of hunteds, psych lims, and
other disads, had a point of zero return.
David Miller
___________________________________________________________________________
| seleena@bigdog.-> |There are 3 temporal dimensions, just as there are 3 |
| ->fred.net |spatial; T, the passage of time; Tau, the changes in |
|-------------------|possible outcomes/decisions; Teh, the alternate bases|
| E. David Miller |of reality. Thus, all that ever has been dreamed, |
|-------------------|IS, somewhen. And somewhen, we are all simply a |
|Faith, and Dreams. |dream. Or, by perspective, a nightmare. |
|___________________|_____________________________________________________|
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:12:25 -0400
From: seleena@fred.net (E. David Miller)
Subject: Re: Char Maxima for Kids & Teens
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:14 PM 7/3/97, Eric Burns wrote:
>Does anyone know if there is a chart somewhere (official or not)
>whith char maxima for teens and children of different age levels?
>
>-Eric
I once had an optional set of Characteristic Maxima and such for a
Youth Disadvantage, similar in design to the Age disadvantage already in
the game. I have been unable to find my copy of it, but perhaps someone
else out there can remember what I am talking about and re-post it to the
list?
David
___________________________________________________________________________
| seleena@bigdog.-> |There are 3 temporal dimensions, just as there are 3 |
| ->fred.net |spatial; T, the passage of time; Tau, the changes in |
|-------------------|possible outcomes/decisions; Teh, the alternate bases|
| E. David Miller |of reality. Thus, all that ever has been dreamed, |
|-------------------|IS, somewhen. And somewhen, we are all simply a |
|Faith, and Dreams. |dream. Or, by perspective, a nightmare. |
|___________________|_____________________________________________________|
Subject: Re: Char Maxima for Kids & Teens
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 97 20:39:30 -0500
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
E. David Miller
>At 12:14 PM 7/3/97, Eric Burns wrote:
>>Does anyone know if there is a chart somewhere (official or not)
>>whith char maxima for teens and children of different age levels?
>>
>>-Eric
>
> I once had an optional set of Characteristic Maxima and such for a
>Youth Disadvantage, similar in design to the Age disadvantage already in
>the game. I have been unable to find my copy of it, but perhaps someone
>else out there can remember what I am talking about and re-post it to the
>list?
Attached is the disad as David provided it a while back. If you can't
read it, email me and I'll write it driectly into a post.
PAX,
John
____________________________________________________________________
| Name: John P. Weatherman | Phone: |
| email: asahoshi@nr.infi.net | (H) (910) 785-1130 |
| fax: (910) 748-4632 | (O) (910) 545-2722 |
|_____________________________|____________________________________|
| He who walking on the sea could calm the bitter waves, who gives |
| life to the dying seeds of the earth; He who was able to loose |
| the mortal chains of death and after three days' darkness could |
| bring again to the upper world the brother of his sister Martha: |
| He, I beleive, will make Damasus rise again from the dust. |
| Pope St. Damasus I (c.305-384) |
|__________________________________________________________________|
Attachment Converted: "g:\eudora\attach\Age Limitation"From ???@??? Fri Jul 04 17:59:25 1997
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Message-ID: <33BC7397.443C@VivaNET.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 20:52:55 -0700
From: Mike Sprague <sprague@VivaNET.com>
Reply-To: sprague@VivaNET.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
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Subject: Re: Damage Resistance(Powers that step on other powers' toes)
References: <1.5.4.16.19970704091118.2df784be@fan.net.au>
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X-UIDL: c57e96fe9d4b8fbe1ea600fffdb48358
Len Undy wrote:
> On a side note, I just want to ask something.
>
> When you take killing damage, how is the Stun worked out? We've done it by
> two ways...
>
> 1> Heroman is hit by a Killing Attack that does 25 BODY. According to the
> Stun Multiplier (x3) that works out to be 75 Stun. He then subtracts his 25
> PD away from that. Note that only 10 Body got through his defenses so he
> takes 10 Body & 50 Stun(Ouch)
>
> 2> Heroman is hit by a Killing Attack that does 25 Body. His Damage
> Resistance stops 15 Body, so he only takes 10. I then multiply that by 3,
> making it 45 Stun. I then take away my 25PD. Heroman takes 10 BODY & 20 STUN.
>
> Which way is correct?
>
> (We tend to use type 1 in Fantasy campaigns, because we feel that Plate Mail
> doesn't do much to soak the Stun. In fact I think we use it for all
> Physical Killing Attacks. Type 2 is used for energy attacks mostly[less
> impact]).
Type 1 is the correct way. This can be confusing because you multiply
the STUN modifier _before_ defenses, and the BODY multiplier _after_.
The above example is why this rule is used for Heroic level games (e.g.
Fantasy Hero) and not Superheroic level games!
BTW, STUN is not _just_ impact damage, but even so, energy weapons _can_
do as much impact as physical weapons.
~ Mike
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 22:26:03 -0500
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us>
Subject: Re: Stretching revisited
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:29 PM 7/3/97 -0500, Bryan Berggren wrote:
>I've never said anyone needs 125" of Stretching. What I've said is that you
>can get the EQUIVALENT of 125" of Stretching for about 62 points, compared
>to the 625 points it would cost you normally. To me, this is a gigantic
>clue that Stretching probably isn't worth the 5 points per inch you're being
>charged for it, especially since TK is based on an obvious paradigm well in
>line with the other powers (effectively being "STR, Ranged") while
>Stretching seems to have been pulled out of hat. Maybe 1 point per inch is
>fairer.
Which would indicate (as someone suggested), that Stretching should work as
a movement power:
+1" for 2 pts
x2 Non-Combat stretch is free. Additional x2 for +5 pts.
This does have the side effect of making "Extra Reach" weapons somewhat
cheaper, but I don't think that's necessarily bad. Truthfully, there
shouldn't be ANY real weapon with +2" of reach except (maybe) whips and
lariats. +2 inches equates to a reach of 7 meters assuming you are standing
in the middle of your hex and your opponent is at the FAR side of his.
That's somewhere around 25 feet!
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 21:06:50 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Hughes Academy Page
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
As I had to change Internet Service Providers, my HA page changed as well, it is
at www.cyberis.net/~lancec/
My game is presently full, but might take on more people later as I get used
to this. In addition, I am going to be gone for a week starting on June
9th, returning June 15th. As such, there will be a delay in the game.
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 21:21:29 -0700
From: Mike Sprague <sprague@VivaNET.com>
Reply-To: sprague@VivaNET.com
Subject: Re: Package Deals
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
One of the problems in discussions like this is that we all have very
different preceptions of how Skills work, what they are, and what you
need to represent what. Someone once wrote that a college degree cost
60 point or so. Now that's seriously getting carried away. I'll give
it to you as a Professional Skill for three points!
> This was a subject several months ago on the list.
I have been at best, a lurker for the past three years due to work load
at work, until I got connected to an ISP at home. Sorry, I missed it,
but I'm back now. :-)
> But this listed skills you mention for a Doctor just aren't
> sufficient to be a doctor.
It's close enough for a the game system though. Just the Professional
Skill alone would cover a ton of stuff, without needing to make the
character buy every little nit picking thing.
> If my doctor only had those skills, regardless of what level he
> had those skills bought to, I would never go to the doctor. I
> would far rather treat myself.
It's only a game though, not real life. :-) The idea it to cover the
basics, not get carried away with every little thing. If I wanted to
get that detailed with Skills, I would be playing GURPS not Hero. Broad
general Skills work much better IMHO in a game system, than do narrow
specific skills.
> To then relate, the PDM (Paranormal Defense Militia, my campaign's
> relative to Genocide) Agent package deal does contain the psych
> lim "Distrust/Hate/Fear Paranormals", but only at the Common
> Moderate level.
But a person might work their way into the group totally for their own
ends, and maybe they couldn't care less about paranormals. What about
double agents? You would have to go change the Disadvantage in the base
Package Deal (or force them to not use the package deal) ... which you
should never have to do.
Instead, that should be a strongly recommended Limitation, outside of
the Package Deal. It's a motivation for joining the group in the first
place, which would be in the characters background, often before the
"spent the points" to join the group.
> one can end up with many packages with _negative_ point totals.
Even so, it should still cost the character 0 points, not save them
points.
That's one of the reasons Pacakge deals are tricky, and why I am not
fond of them.
~ Mike
From: ErolB1@aol.com
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:33:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Transform: I changed my mind
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
One of the problems here is that there are two rather different applications
of Transform that seem to call for different restrictions.
There's Transform (*object* into something else), where it seems to be OK to
produce something of value - as long as it isn't *too* valuable. A guideline
here might be "A Transform of this sort cannot increase the value of an
object to more than double it's original value." (Or maybe "double value" for
a Minor Transform & "triple value" for a Major Transform?)
This guideline has the advantage of giving the right value (zero) for objects
"created out of nothing" by Transform. ("Twice (or thrice) nothing's still
nothing.") OTOH, this guideline makes Transform: Object into character (or
vehicle) problematical, but IMHO such transforms should be "only with special
GM permission" anyway (I'd say to use Summon instead.)
Then there's Transform (*character* into something else), where the intended
'standard' use is to partly disable (Minor Transform) or completely
neutralize (Major Transform) the target character. In the standard use, the
victim is turned into something helpless and harmless (or at least less able
to resist), and it smells abusive to go further and make the victim more
useful to the Transform-wielder than a prisoner or dead body would be.
Likewise, it smells abusive for a Transform to boost the "victim's"
abilities. But exactly how one should deal with these concepts without being
abusive is a question I'm still trying to answer.
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:52:30 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net
From: Kim Foster <nexus@UKY.CAMPUS.MCI.NET>
Subject: Re: Stretching revisited
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I don't know if this has been mentioned but there is one benifit to
stretching. You get all your strength and fine manipulation for free.
What sick person put an "S" in lisp?
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 07:58:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Stretching revisited
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Earl Kwallek wrote:
> Which would indicate (as someone suggested), that Stretching should work as
> a movement power:
>
> +1" for 2 pts
>
> x2 Non-Combat stretch is free. Additional x2 for +5 pts.
>
> This does have the side effect of making "Extra Reach" weapons somewhat
> cheaper, but I don't think that's necessarily bad. Truthfully, there
> shouldn't be ANY real weapon with +2" of reach except (maybe) whips and
> lariats. +2 inches equates to a reach of 7 meters assuming you are standing
> in the middle of your hex and your opponent is at the FAR side of his.
> That's somewhere around 25 feet!
Actually, some Japanese yari (spears) and some Swiss pikes were 20 to 25
feet long. Granted, one can't do much but thrust with a weapon like this,
but when you're standing there with 100 other guys all armed the same way,
it doesn't matter that much.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Subject: Re: Char Maxima for Kids
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 97 09:04:44 -0500
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
This is the one David was using. Thanks for saving me the
retyping :).
PAX,
John
Opal
>
>Well, this is my version from the infamous Variants file on
>Red October (which I really have to update, it doesn't have
>my new Regeneration version, and the END reserve section is
>really bad).
>
>Don't know if it's the one you're thinking of:
>
>
>Age:
> An age disadvantage can also be used to represent a
>particularly youthful character:
>
> Char. Adult Youth Teenager Child Infant
> (21+) (16-20) (13-17) (6-12) (5-)
> STR 20 18 15 10 5
> DEX 20 20 18 15 10
> CON 20 23 20 15 13
> BOD 20 20 18 15 15
> INT 20 18 15 10 8
> EGO 20 18 15 15 8
> PRE 20 18 15 10 5
> COM 20 20 20 20 20
> PD 8 7 6 4 3
> ED 8 7 6 4 3
> SPD 4 4 4 3 2
> REC 10 12 11 10 10
> END 50 60 50 40 30
> STN 50 45 40 30 30
> Run 10 10 10 7 3
> Swim 5 5 5 3 1
>
>
> Pts: 0 3 5 10 20
>
> As with the standard age limitation, it is possible for a
>character to take a disadvantage associated with a greater or
>lesser age than his actual chronological age.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>___
>
> * OFFLINE 1.58
>
____________________________________________________________________
| Name: John P. Weatherman | Phone: |
| email: asahoshi@nr.infi.net | (H) (910) 785-1130 |
| fax: (910) 748-4632 | (O) (910) 545-2722 |
|_____________________________|____________________________________|
| He who walking on the sea could calm the bitter waves, who gives |
| life to the dying seeds of the earth; He who was able to loose |
| the mortal chains of death and after three days' darkness could |
| bring again to the upper world the brother of his sister Martha: |
| He, I beleive, will make Damasus rise again from the dust. |
| Pope St. Damasus I (c.305-384) |
|__________________________________________________________________|
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 09:13:48 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: Stretching revisited
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:52 AM 7/4/97 -0400, Kim Foster wrote:
>
>I don't know if this has been mentioned but there is one benifit to
>stretching. You get all your strength and fine manipulation for free.
> What sick person put an "S" in lisp?
Given that the cost of STR and fine manipulation for TK is (a) obscenely
cheaper than stretching and (b) works at a longer range for being cheaper, I
wouldn't call that an "advantage", I'd call it not having added insult to
injury.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
Subject: Re: Package Deals
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 97 10:20:45 -0500
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Mike Sprague
>It's only a game though, not real life. :-) The idea it to cover the
>basics, not get carried away with every little thing. If I wanted to
>get that detailed with Skills, I would be playing GURPS not Hero. Broad
>general Skills work much better IMHO in a game system, than do narrow
>specific skills.
But hero's skill system very easily allows for detailed skills lists.
David does, occationally, go overboard, but in general I tend to agree
with him. One real differance between his games and published material
is that most characters have at least half, and usually more, of their
points in skills, something I really like. In general, people give David
a hard about the points bases he uses, but the characters powers are
rarely
any greater than those of published or posted characters, they just have
the skills to fully represent the background for a "real" person. In our
experience, narrow specific skills are better in a game, sence it allows
for specialization and differant opportunities for characters to shine.
>> To then relate, the PDM (Paranormal Defense Militia, my campaign's
>> relative to Genocide) Agent package deal does contain the psych
>> lim "Distrust/Hate/Fear Paranormals", but only at the Common
>> Moderate level.
>
>But a person might work their way into the group totally for their own
>ends, and maybe they couldn't care less about paranormals. What about
>double agents? You would have to go change the Disadvantage in the base
>Package Deal (or force them to not use the package deal) ... which you
>should never have to do.
Such a person should not have the PDM package deal. Maybe their an
Infiltrator, a differant package, or a spy, again another package, and
have
the skills to hide their true affiliations. However, if your not "part of
the group" then you shouldn't get that groups package deal.
>> one can end up with many packages with _negative_ point totals.
>
>Even so, it should still cost the character 0 points, not save them
>points.
>
>That's one of the reasons Pacakge deals are tricky, and why I am not
>fond of them.
That's been our concern as well, which is why we got rid of encapsulation
(I think this is where we started :)). As long as the Disads are counted
against the character caps, even negitive deals don't net you anything,
you can't "stack and rack" and end up with, "Character Concept: God, I can
get away with anything".
PAX,
John
____________________________________________________________________
| Name: John P. Weatherman | Phone: |
| email: asahoshi@nr.infi.net | (H) (910) 785-1130 |
| fax: (910) 748-4632 | (O) (910) 545-2722 |
|_____________________________|____________________________________|
| He who walking on the sea could calm the bitter waves, who gives |
| life to the dying seeds of the earth; He who was able to loose |
| the mortal chains of death and after three days' darkness could |
| bring again to the upper world the brother of his sister Martha: |
| He, I beleive, will make Damasus rise again from the dust. |
| Pope St. Damasus I (c.305-384) |
|__________________________________________________________________|
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 12:22:16 -0700
From: Mike Sprague <sprague@VivaNET.com>
Reply-To: sprague@VivaNET.com
Subject: Re: Package Deals
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
John P Weatherman wrote:
> But hero's skill system very easily allows for detailed skills lists.
> David does, occationally, go overboard, but in general I tend to agree
> with him. One real differance between his games and published material
> is that most characters have at least half, and usually more, of
> their points in skills, something I really like.
You will not get any disagreement from me that published characters are
often sadly lacking in even basic skills!! Characters should have a
number of Skills, in my opinion. As you wrote, Hero Skills do allow you
to do detailed skill sets ... but you have to draw the line at some
point, and say "This is good enough." More so for Superheroes.
> In general, people give David a hard about the points bases he uses,
> but the characters powers are rarely any greater than those of
> published or posted characters, they just have the skills to fully
> represent the background for a "real" person.
Three comments.
First, I don't do gaming to play "real" persons. :-) If your playing
Champions, Skills are not as importent as other things. (Note that I
actually prefer Hero level games over Superhero levle, and Skills are
far more importent there.)
Second, published/posted characters are all over the scale. Can you
give me an idea of power levels your talking about? It does make a big
difference.
Last, I don't have a clue what David's point base is, so I can only
comment in generalities. If you gave a champions character at least 50
more points than the standard 250 (100 + Disadvantages), then mandated
that at least a third must be in Skills and Knowledge, then I think you
could come up with a good playable character who also is well rounded in
Skills and Knowledge. (Hmmm, and that might not be a bad idea either).
> In our experience, narrow specific skills are better in a game,
> sence it allows for specialization and differant opportunities
> for characters to shine.
And on the down side, this also give you many situations where no
character has the Skills to resolve the issue at hand and the GM either
fudges it, or the players move on frustrated.
Our viewpoints might not be that far off however. I like the Hero
System skills as described. Just so you understand what I meant by not
liking specific narrow skills and playing GURPS if that was what I
wanted, note that in GURPS you often have to buy two to four Skills, to
cover what a single Skill in Hero covers. Knowledge/Profession/Science
Skills are far cheaper and more useful in Hero than in GURPS.
>>> To then relate, the PDM (Paranormal Defense Militia, my campaign's
>>> relative to Genocide) Agent package deal does contain the psych
>>> lim "Distrust/Hate/Fear Paranormals", but only at the Common
>>> Moderate level.
>>
>>But a person might work their way into the group totally for their own
>>ends, and maybe they couldn't care less about paranormals. What about
>>double agents? You would have to go change the Disadvantage in the base
>>Package Deal (or force them to not use the package deal) ... which you
>>should never have to do.
>
> Such a person should not have the PDM package deal.
I disagree. If your part of the group, then your part of the group.
You still have to have that same basic set of skills and training, so
you should be allowed to have the package deal.
~ Mike
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"John and Ron Prins\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 97 22:02:33
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:16:11 -0400 (EDT), John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>>Urk. Talk about useless, though. Instead of the AP AND Penetrating, I'd go
>>>for more dice! Check this:
>>>
>>>Normal Major Transform: 8D6 for 120 AP
>>>Cumulative Major Transform: 5D6 for 112.5 AP
>>>AP Pen. Cum. Major Transform 3D6 for 112.5 AP
>>
>>If you're using the last, you stick with 1d6 at most - or even one pip
>>- which cuts down the cost markedly!
>
>Yeah, but then we're completely out of the realm of 'useful' combat powers.
How so? a 1 pip AP (vs Hardened), Pen, Cum, 0 End Uncontrolled Major
Transform is *really* nasty. Now add in Sticky <hehe>.
>
>>>>My understanding is that Transform works on *current* BODY.
>>>
>>>Really? But what happens when things are at negative BODY?
>>
>>Things at negative BODY are dying or dead and don't count.
>
>So what then? You can't Transform dying characters? Why not? Or do you then
>use the absolute value of the BODY stat?. Look what happens when you use
>current BODY as the target for Transforms (assuming a 20 BODY stat)
>
>Current BODY: BODY Damage until Death:
> 20 40
> 15 35
> 10 30
> 5 25
> 0 20
> -5 15
> -10 10
> -15 5
> -20 0
>
>Now, if you based the Transform vs. the 'BODY damage until death' number it
>might make more sense, but I really think that linking the amount of
>corporeal damage someone has taken to the difficulty of Transforming them is
>a bad idea. The corpse of a 20 BODY person should be just as difficult to
>Transform as the body of a live 20 BODY person.
[Cue extraneous metaphysical arguments] <g>
qts
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 09:58:48 +1000 (EST)
X-Sender: bryce144@fan.net.au
From: Len Undy <bryce144@fan.net.au>
Subject: Re: Damage Resistance(Powers that step on other powers' toes)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:25 AM 04/07/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Len Undy wrote:
>
>>
>> Hmm. Lets look at a 25STR character.
>> 10 PD Damage Risistance cost 5 points. Must have at least 10 normal PD
>> which cost 5points. total = 10 points
>>
>
>Where are you coming up with the requirement that a character needs to
>have 10 normal PD? That is not in the book....
>
>Gothyk
>
Read Damage Resistance carefully(page 61 in CD). Damage Resistance allows
the character to use some or all of his natural defenses(his "normal" PD &
ED). "Damage Resistance doesn't add to the character's defenses, it just
enables him to use his existing defenses against Killing Attacks."
This means that you can only have Damage Resistance lower or equal to your
normal PD(or ED) If your PD is only 5 and you want 10 PD Damage Resistance,
then you also have to by 5 more "normal" PD.
I hope that this clears the subject up...(I've been wrong many times before).
BRYCE
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:55:30 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>>>>Normal Major Transform: 8D6 for 120 AP
>>>>Cumulative Major Transform: 5D6 for 112.5 AP
>>>>AP Pen. Cum. Major Transform 3D6 for 112.5 AP
>>>
>>>If you're using the last, you stick with 1d6 at most - or even one pip
>>>- which cuts down the cost markedly!
>>
>>Yeah, but then we're completely out of the realm of 'useful' combat powers.
>
>How so? a 1 pip AP (vs Hardened), Pen, Cum, 0 End Uncontrolled Major
>Transform is *really* nasty. Now add in Sticky <hehe>.
Not really. 2 pips of Power Defense will stop it cold - note that 1 pip of
Transform cannot 'roll BODY' on the die, making Penetrating a meaningless
advantage. And then there's the 'reasonably common' means of turning off the
Transform. Oh, and it won't do you much good if the enemy has already
pounded you into prune juice while you wait for the Transform to (finally)
kick in.
>>>Things at negative BODY are dying or dead and don't count.
>>
>>So what then? You can't Transform dying characters? Why not? Or do you then
>>use the absolute value of the BODY stat?. Look what happens when you use
>>current BODY as the target for Transforms (assuming a 20 BODY stat)
>>
>>Current BODY: BODY Damage until Death:
>> 20 40
>> 15 35
>> 10 30
>> 5 25
>> 0 20
>> -5 15
>> -10 10
>> -15 5
>> -20 0
>>
>>Now, if you based the Transform vs. the 'BODY damage until death' number it
>>might make more sense, but I really think that linking the amount of
>>corporeal damage someone has taken to the difficulty of Transforming them is
>>a bad idea. The corpse of a 20 BODY person should be just as difficult to
>>Transform as the body of a live 20 BODY person.
>
>[Cue extraneous metaphysical arguments] <g>
Metaphysical nothing. This is an important point of HERO mechanics - do
wounds make it easier to Transform an opponant? I don't think they should.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone
else's house?"
-NHS #56
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:55:36 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>>Elbows seem to be a pretty direct way of attacking. I'd argue that Mr.
>>Fantastic has 'indirect' bought on his Stretching, so he can pull off those
>>'attack from behind' maneuvers. I see 'standard' stretching more like a
>>telescopicing unit would function - straight lines out from the body only.
>
>This is too much. This is not something that should be represented by a
>power advantage, it is a matter of TACTICS. Indirect does not represent
>using a power cleverly, NO ADVANTAGE represents using a power cleverly.
Look, if somebody wants to use stretching to 'attack from behind' as a
'surprise maneuver' to gain an OCV bonus, well and good. But if they want to
use it as if it was _mechanically_ an Indirect attack, then they should buy
the advantage Indirect.
That said, I think that the Indirect advantage is too 'limited' in its
definitions - you should be able to buy powers that can attack from any
angle but do not necessarily ignore intervening barriers.
And from what I've seen of Mr. Fantastic's stretchy powers, he does warrant
Indirect. He's put his arm through all sorts of snaky tunnels and vents
(which would defy any 'elongated' human anatomy). It's just not full-blown,
barrier ignoring Indirect - though he often _does_ find a way around those
barriers that are not fully closed.
For example: BadGuy (tm) is standing behind a 10ft wide glass pane. Now, to
attack BadGuy (tm, who can easily be seen through the glass), Mr. Fantastic
could either:
A.) punch through the glass with his stretchy arm, or
B.) stretch his arm in a way that goes around the barrier, thereby
_bypassing_ the barrier entirely.
Now, B.) to me looks a lot like an Indirect power, as he is bypassing
barriers to attack his target. While I realize that this is a 'common'
stretchy trick, that doesn't mean that it's inherent in the Stretching power.
>Give
>players a reward for showing thought in how they use their abilities rather
>than penalizing them by saying they can't do that if they did not buy the
>appropriate advantage. Advantages are things a character does not have to
>think about to use . . .
Oh, so now I should allow StretchyGuy to pass through bars without buying
Desolidification. Or let him glide by stretching out his body into a wide,
air-catching plane without buying Gliding. Or run faster because he can have
stretchy long legs (which I'll mention is prohibited in the Stretching
writeup) without buying more Running. These are as much 'creative uses' of a
power as what you're suggesting - but they're illegal. While 'attacking from
behind' may _look_ legal with plain old Stretching, I suggest that it is
not, strictly speaking, legal.
And further, if I had a PC who wanted to build a Mr. Fantastic style
stretching character, I'd point out at character creation that he might want
to buy Indirect on his Stretching for the desired results.
Anyone like to comment on other stretching characters in comics? IIRC,
Machine Man was a 'straight line only' stretcher, and I can't off the top of
my head recall Doc Octopus pulling off anything resembling an Indirect
attack - he did some whip-like maneuvers, but those tentacles weren't THAT
flexible...PlasticMan from DC was another character I'd rate with Indirect
Stretching...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone
else's house?"
-NHS #56
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 22:42:10 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>>>How so? a 1 pip AP (vs Hardened), Pen, Cum, 0 End Uncontrolled Major
>>>Transform is *really* nasty. Now add in Sticky <hehe>.
>>
>>Not really. 2 pips of Power Defense will stop it cold - note that 1 pip of
>>Transform cannot 'roll BODY' on the die, making Penetrating a meaningless
>>advantage. And then there's the 'reasonably common' means of turning off the
>>Transform. Oh, and it won't do you much good if the enemy has already
>>pounded you into prune juice while you wait for the Transform to (finally)
>>kick in.
>
>For the first 2 phases, but cumulative means all the body keeps adding
>against
>the same defense, simulating the attack that WILL eventually overwhelm
>ANY
>defense given time. That 1 pip attack could get nasty if you don't get
>it
>turned off in time. :)
No, I don't believe Cumulative Transform works that way. Power Defense would
apply to each and every instance of the die being rolled. I'll pull a quote
from the BBB pg.88:
"With a Cumulative Transform, the target keeps track of the Transform
"damage" that has accrued."
Now, if someone has a 1D6 Transform and I have 5 pips Power Defense, and he
rolls a 6, I've 'accrued' ONE point of Transform damage, not 6 points.
Basically, every 'event' of Transform acting is a separate 'attack', even
where Cumulative Transforms are concerned. Power Defense applies vs. each
and every one of these occurances.
This is no different from any other continious attack. A Continious EB acts
against the full ED or PD on every phase it does damage. A Continious Drain
must overcome Power Defense every phase to do Drain damage. And, by the same
extension, a Continious Cumulative Transform must overcome Power Defense in
order to accrue any sort of Cumulative effect on the target.
Or am I the only one that sees it this way (I sort of doubt that).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone
else's house?"
-NHS #56
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 97 22:11:56 -0500
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
John and Ron Prins
>>How so? a 1 pip AP (vs Hardened), Pen, Cum, 0 End Uncontrolled Major
>>Transform is *really* nasty. Now add in Sticky <hehe>.
>
>Not really. 2 pips of Power Defense will stop it cold - note that 1 pip of
>Transform cannot 'roll BODY' on the die, making Penetrating a meaningless
>advantage. And then there's the 'reasonably common' means of turning off the
>Transform. Oh, and it won't do you much good if the enemy has already
>pounded you into prune juice while you wait for the Transform to (finally)
>kick in.
For the first 2 phases, but cumulative means all the body keeps adding
against
the same defense, simulating the attack that WILL eventually overwhelm
ANY
defense given time. That 1 pip attack could get nasty if you don't get
it
turned off in time. :)
____________________________________________________________________
| Name: John P. Weatherman | Phone: |
| email: asahoshi@nr.infi.net | (H) (910) 785-1130 |
| fax: (910) 748-4632 | (O) (910) 545-2722 |
|_____________________________|____________________________________|
| He who walking on the sea could calm the bitter waves, who gives |
| life to the dying seeds of the earth; He who was able to loose |
| the mortal chains of death and after three days' darkness could |
| bring again to the upper world the brother of his sister Martha: |
| He, I beleive, will make Damasus rise again from the dust. |
| Pope St. Damasus I (c.305-384) |
|__________________________________________________________________|
From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann)
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 03:28:22 -0800
Organization: Terminal BBS (403)327-9731
Subject: More Than Meets The Eye
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
-=> Quoting John and Ron Prins to Mike Lehmann <=-
>For the first 2 phases, but cumulative means all the body keeps adding
>against the same defense, simulating the attack that WILL eventually
>overwhelm ANY defense given time. That 1 pip attack could get nasty
>if you don't get it turned off in time. :)
I think you're confusing Cumulative and Gradual Effect.
JaRP> Basically, every 'event' of Transform acting is a separate 'attack',
JaRP> even where Cumulative Transforms are concerned. Power Defense applies
JaRP> vs. each and every one of these occurances.
That sounds correct.
JaRP> This is no different from any other continious attack. A Continious EB
JaRP> acts against the full ED or PD on every phase it does damage. A
JaRP> Continious Drain must overcome Power Defense every phase to do Drain
JaRP> damage. And, by the same extension, a Continious Cumulative Transform
JaRP> must overcome Power Defense in order to accrue any sort of Cumulative
JaRP> effect on the target.
JaRP> Or am I the only one that sees it this way (I sort of doubt that).
No, I think you're right about this one.
Besides, without the Continuous advantage, it would cease after the
first hit. Hardly "overwhelming"...
mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net - - - - - Justice Krewe / Enigma Watch GM
- - - - - - http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html - - - - - -
... Either he's dead, Jim, or my tricorder is running Windows 95.
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internet: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net <<<<<<<<<<<
The TERMINAL BBS Fidonet; 1:358/17
Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada 1:358/18
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"John P Weatherman\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 97 12:43:03
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 4 Jul 97 22:11:56 -0500, John P Weatherman wrote:
>John and Ron Prins
>
>>>How so? a 1 pip AP (vs Hardened), Pen, Cum, 0 End Uncontrolled Major
>>>Transform is *really* nasty. Now add in Sticky <hehe>.
>>
>>Not really. 2 pips of Power Defense will stop it cold
This is what the Penetrating iadvantage is for.
>>- note that 1 pip of
>>Transform cannot 'roll BODY' on the die, making Penetrating a meaningless
Yes it can, because it *is* 'BODY'.
qts
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"John and Ron Prins\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 97 12:45:27
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:55:30 -0400 (EDT), John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>>>>Normal Major Transform: 8D6 for 120 AP
>>>>>Cumulative Major Transform: 5D6 for 112.5 AP
>>>>>AP Pen. Cum. Major Transform 3D6 for 112.5 AP
>>>>
>>>>If you're using the last, you stick with 1d6 at most - or even one pip
>>>>- which cuts down the cost markedly!
>>>
>>>Yeah, but then we're completely out of the realm of 'useful' combat powers.
>>
>>How so? a 1 pip AP (vs Hardened), Pen, Cum, 0 End Uncontrolled Major
>>Transform is *really* nasty. Now add in Sticky <hehe>.
>
>Not really. 2 pips of Power Defense will stop it cold - note that 1 pip of
>Transform cannot 'roll BODY' on the die, making Penetrating a meaningless
>advantage. And then there's the 'reasonably common' means of turning off the
>Transform. Oh, and it won't do you much good if the enemy has already
>pounded you into prune juice while you wait for the Transform to (finally)
>kick in.
I've answered this in a message to John Weatherman.
>>>>Things at negative BODY are dying or dead and don't count.
>>>
>>>So what then? You can't Transform dying characters? Why not? Or do you then
>>>use the absolute value of the BODY stat?. Look what happens when you use
>>>current BODY as the target for Transforms (assuming a 20 BODY stat)
>>>
>>>Current BODY: BODY Damage until Death:
>>> 20 40
>>> 15 35
>>> 10 30
>>> 5 25
>>> 0 20
>>> -5 15
>>> -10 10
>>> -15 5
>>> -20 0
>>>
>>>Now, if you based the Transform vs. the 'BODY damage until death' number it
>>>might make more sense, but I really think that linking the amount of
>>>corporeal damage someone has taken to the difficulty of Transforming them is
>>>a bad idea. The corpse of a 20 BODY person should be just as difficult to
>>>Transform as the body of a live 20 BODY person.
>>
>>[Cue extraneous metaphysical arguments] <g>
>
>Metaphysical nothing. This is an important point of HERO mechanics - do
>wounds make it easier to Transform an opponant? I don't think they should.
We've already agreed that Transform shouldn't be based on BODY, so
they're extraneous. QED
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 08:29:49 -0500
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us>
Subject: Re: Stretching revisited
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 07:58 AM 7/4/97 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Earl Kwallek wrote:
>
>> Which would indicate (as someone suggested), that Stretching should
work as
>> a movement power:
>>
>> +1" for 2 pts
>>
>> x2 Non-Combat stretch is free. Additional x2 for +5 pts.
>>
>> This does have the side effect of making "Extra Reach" weapons somewhat
>> cheaper, but I don't think that's necessarily bad. Truthfully, there
>> shouldn't be ANY real weapon with +2" of reach except (maybe) whips and
>> lariats. +2 inches equates to a reach of 7 meters assuming you are standing
>> in the middle of your hex and your opponent is at the FAR side of his.
>> That's somewhere around 25 feet!
>
>Actually, some Japanese yari (spears) and some Swiss pikes were 20 to 25
>feet long. Granted, one can't do much but thrust with a weapon like this,
>but when you're standing there with 100 other guys all armed the same way,
>it doesn't matter that much.
>
Hmmm... The longest Pike I've ever heard of was 20', and I've never heard
of a Yari of over 12', but I won't dismiss the possibility. Really unwieldy
when you consider that the people using these weapon were about 5'6"...
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:08:29 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>>>>How so? a 1 pip AP (vs Hardened), Pen, Cum, 0 End Uncontrolled Major
>>>>Transform is *really* nasty. Now add in Sticky <hehe>.
>>>
>>>Not really. 2 pips of Power Defense will stop it cold
>
>This is what the Penetrating iadvantage is for.
>
>>>- note that 1 pip of
>>>Transform cannot 'roll BODY' on the die, making Penetrating a meaningless
>
>Yes it can, because it *is* 'BODY'.
No, no, no. 'Penetrating' counts the 'BODY' the attack _would_ have done if
it was a straight 'normal' attack - i.e. 0 BODY on a roll of 1, 1 BODY on a
roll of 2 through 5, and 2 BODY on a roll of 6.
A 1 pip attack is _always_ a result of 1, therefore 'unable' to achieve a
BODY result for the purposes of the Penetrating Advantage. In fact, I'll
quote directly from the Penetrating write-up (BBB pg. 96):
"The character rolls his damage dice normally and applies them against the
target's defenses, but no matter how high the target's defenses are, the
target will take a minimum of 1 point of effect for every "BODY" rolled on
the dice. Thus the character takes no points of effect from each 1; he takes
1 point of effect from each 2, 3, 4, and 5; he takes 2 points of effect from
each 6."
and:
"Penetration Attack can be applied to the STUN of normal attacks, to the
BODY of Killing Attacks, and any other effect that presents the total of the
dice against a target's defenses."
Transform falls under this 'total of the dice' ruling, so you count (for the
purposes of penetration) no the effect of the dice, but the BODY rolled on
the dice. Note that Transforms don't actually inflict BODY in the first
place, they just compare their result vs. the BODY of the target, so your
argument is moot in the first place.
And, as Mike noted in another message, your power construct lacks the
Continious Advantage, so it's still worthless. :-)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone
else's house?"
-NHS #56
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:51:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Stretching revisited
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 5 Jul 1997, Earl Kwallek wrote:
> Hmmm... The longest Pike I've ever heard of was 20', and I've never heard
> of a Yari of over 12', but I won't dismiss the possibility. Really unwieldy
> when you consider that the people using these weapon were about 5'6"...
One of my Osprey 'Men-at-arms' military books speaks of Japanese spearmen
with 7 meter yari, a rarity to be sure. Unwieldyness isn't a factor with
pike thoughs, one is supposed to stand in one place and hold the weapon
straight out in front of you, forming a wall of sharp points that no horse
is stupid enough to charge (people, on the other hand...)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 12:52:42 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 08:55 PM 7/4/97 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>For example: BadGuy (tm) is standing behind a 10ft wide glass pane. Now, to
>attack BadGuy (tm, who can easily be seen through the glass), Mr. Fantastic
>could either:
>
>A.) punch through the glass with his stretchy arm, or
>B.) stretch his arm in a way that goes around the barrier, thereby
>_bypassing_ the barrier entirely.
This isn't an Indirect attack. This is points of stretching used to go
around the glass. It *might* be worth an OCV bonus, and it might not
(especially if you've fought the Fantastic Four before and expect this kind
of thing from ol' Reed) but the point of the matter is that if Reed doesn't
have enough inches of stretching to go around, he's screwed.
To put it another way: BadGuy (tm) is standing behind the Great Wall of
China ... In any case, Indirect really isn't appropriate for Stretching
anyways, because it's defined as "ignoring intervening barriers between the
attacker and the target". There is no "target" with Stretching -- it's a
power that lets you "occupy" more than one space temporarily, increasing
your natural reach. It's not an attack, and you don't roll to hit anything:
you just stretch. In effect, YOU are the target, and there aren't any
barriers between you and you, are there? (Well, unless you have Duplication
...)
Buying Indirect on Stretching is like buying Indirect on Movement Powers or
Regeneration.
>Now, B.) to me looks a lot like an Indirect power, as he is bypassing
>barriers to attack his target. While I realize that this is a 'common'
>stretchy trick, that doesn't mean that it's inherent in the Stretching power.
Attention, men -- we -have- cereal bowl!
He's bypassing the barrier, but he's not IGNORING it, any more than the
Thing ignores it by blasting through it with casual STR, or the Ghost does
by sticking an intangible hand through the wall and firing an Affects
Physical World energy blast, or Marvel Girl does by levitating something
heavy and moving it over BadGuy's head ...
The HERO system is extraordinarily flexible, and there are going to be
multiple ways of solving any problem. Just because something isn't the
default doesn't mean it's illegal; if it did, we couldn't ever kill someone
with Energy Blast instead of RKA.
(All of this begs the question of why BadGuy always chooses to stand behind
a big glass pane -- what, does he have some kind of complex? :])
>Oh, so now I should allow StretchyGuy to pass through bars without buying
>Desolidification.
No, because that doesn't fit the model of extending his reach. He could
punch someone through the bars, though, if they weren't so close together he
couldn't fit his arm through.
> Or let him glide by stretching out his body into a wide, air-catching
> plane without buying Gliding.
No, because that's not part of extending one's reach. (Seeing a pattern here?)
> Or run faster because he can have stretchy long legs (which I'll mention
> is prohibited in the Stretching writeup) without buying more Running.
We'll leave this space as an exercise for the reader.
> These are as much 'creative uses' of a power as what you're suggesting
> - but they're illegal.
No, they're creative uses of a certain special effect (elasticity), whereas
the wrap-around attack is a creative use of a Power. Apples, oranges.
> While 'attacking from ehind' may _look_ legal with plain old Stretching,
> I suggest that it is not, strictly speaking, legal.
And I (politely) suggest that you're wrong. :] If you have the inches to
burn, attacking from behind with Stretching is no more illegal than running
around to a rear hex to attack. Since Stretching seems to imitate the
Movement Powers, even if it is not one itself, the parallel should be obvious.
> And further, if I had a PC who wanted to build a Mr. Fantastic style
> stretching character, I'd point out at character creation that he might
> want to buy Indirect on his Stretching for the desired results.
PCs don't build characters, PCs ARE the characters. Your PLAYER wants to
build the stretching PC, or else you have a very odd campaign. :]
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely. |
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Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
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From: R Jacobs <rjacobs@radiks.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 12:58:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Package Deals
Newsgroups: october.hero
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Okay then,
How is everyone handling default skills?
HERO system games have no way, to my knowledge, of handling default
skills (with the exception of Everyman Skills). One GM says "If you
want a college degree you have to purchase EVERYTHING that goes into
that degree" and another GM says "Just buy the Professional Skill and
you get 'X' amount of assumed knowledge". Why not use a default skill
roll?
I've already argued this point on HEROCHAT (visit us using your
favorite CHAT program on DALNET in #HEROCHAT!!!) and the only conclusion
we arrived at is that each GM must decide their own way of handling
things. I find that answer less than satisfying and figure that SOMEONE
out there has devised a relatively objective method of handling
situations where a person is performing an action that they do not have
a skill in. For Example (from my own game):
WhiteFeather, a Native American character whose totem is a puma,
has a 30 DEX when in puma-form. A 30 DEX means the character has an
ungodly (dare I say, 'superhuman') sense of balance, agility, and
reflexes. She does not possess the skill ACROBATICS. Should she be
prohibited from performing ANY Acrobatics maneuvers, SOME Acrobatics
manuevers with penalties, or should her 'natural talent' (i.e. HIGH DEX)
give her some default skill level?
This brings us to the question of 'When do I need to make a skill
roll?' Should skill rolls only be made when attempting things out of
the ordinary....in the case above, with WhiteFeather:
IF WhiteFeather did have Acrobatics she would not have to make
skill rolls for routine maneuvers...only for things deemed exceptional
but since she doesn't possess Acrobatics EVERY maneuver is considered
exceptional and she therefore must always make a skill roll...
Which leads us full circle to: "What is a good default skill
roll"?
Gothyk
"Keeper of the Lists"
Visit me, Wild_Goose, Chessman and DreamWld on DALNET (channel:
#HEROCHAT) most nights from, at least, 5-9pm....see you there!!
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Drain/Dispel/Aid vs. Multiforms and Duplicates
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 15:00:36 -0400 (EDT)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I was wondering, what happens when you successfully drain or dispel
someone with duplication or multiform? More specifically:
If you dispel a dupe will he disapeer? If you dispel someone with
duplication, will his/her duplicates disapeer? If this is true, could
Baker's Dozen buy a triggered dispel to save his duplicates when they
are knocked unconscious? Will the dupes dissapeer one after another (when
affected by a drain or dispel) or will they all disapeer at once after
enough points are rolled?
If you dispel or drain someone with multiform, do they revert to their
base form, a user defined "normal" form, or do they just become locked in
their current form?
Alright, here comes the power rules abuse: can you temporarily gain new
multiforms or dupes by aiding, absorbing, or transfering your multiform or
duplication power up? Can you define these new forms yourself? For
instance, let's say Manifold Man has multiform with two extra forms. If
he is fighting Die Flandermous (tm), could he use his 10d6 aid multiform
to create a form that is exactly the same as Die Flandermous (tm) after
aiding his multiform up by DF's total points divided by 10, and
thereby gain all of DF's extraordinary powers and skills (until the aid
runs out)?
And while I'm asking all these stupid questions, let me add one more. How
is damage handled for multiforms? For instance, if Wendy Wilson, the
Werewolf from Wisconsin gets shot for 4 BODY and 12 STUN of damage in her
wimpy human form, and then changes to her 12' tall monster werewolf form,
will she still have this damage?
-Eric
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 14:02:58 -0500
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us>
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:43 PM 7/5/97, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>On Fri, 4 Jul 97 22:11:56 -0500, John P Weatherman wrote:
>>>- note that 1 pip of
>>>Transform cannot 'roll BODY' on the die, making Penetrating a meaningless
>
>Yes it can, because it *is* 'BODY'.
>
Sorry-
1 pip is the same as 0d6+1. Sin ce you can't roll "Body" on the
non-existant die the +1 will never penetrate. Thisw is what makes
Penetrating on Killing attacks and such so confusing, the Actual Roll is
applied vs the BODY score of the target (after defenses of course), but for
penetrating purposes the "Body" of the attack is counted as per a Normal
attack (ie: 2 Body for a 6, 0 for a 1, and 1 for 2-5). Got it?
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 15:09:00 -0400 (EDT)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> Buying Indirect on Stretching is like buying Indirect on Movement Powers or
> Regeneration.
>
[SNIP!]
>
> around to a rear hex to attack. Since Stretching seems to imitate the
> Movement Powers, even if it is not one itself, the parallel should be obvious.
>
> --
> Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
This is a good point, and it gives me an idea. How about the amount that
you can bend an outstreched arm or whatever be like the turning rate with
flight, and the distance between turns could be decreased by buying levels
with stretching, like you do with flight? Just a thought...
-Eric
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 16:06:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Drain/Dispel/Aid vs. Multiforms and Duplicates
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 5 Jul 1997, Eric Burns wrote:
> And while I'm asking all these stupid questions, let me add one more. How
> is damage handled for multiforms? For instance, if Wendy Wilson, the
> Werewolf from Wisconsin gets shot for 4 BODY and 12 STUN of damage in her
> wimpy human form, and then changes to her 12' tall monster werewolf form,
> will she still have this damage?
Technically, a multiform is supposed to be two seperate characters, thus,
damage to from A shouldn't translate as damage to Form B. Now, based on
SFX, one might want to base the carry over damage in the same way that
Growth Damage carries over (using percentages of Body Lost per total Body
the charqacter has). The problem comes when scaling up the
damage and Body numbers.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 16:06:35 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>At 08:55 PM 7/4/97 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>For example: BadGuy (tm) is standing behind a 10ft wide glass pane. Now, to
>>attack BadGuy (tm, who can easily be seen through the glass), Mr. Fantastic
>>could either:
>>
>>A.) punch through the glass with his stretchy arm, or
>>B.) stretch his arm in a way that goes around the barrier, thereby
>>_bypassing_ the barrier entirely.
>
>This isn't an Indirect attack. This is points of stretching used to go
>around the glass. It *might* be worth an OCV bonus, and it might not
>(especially if you've fought the Fantastic Four before and expect this kind
>of thing from ol' Reed) but the point of the matter is that if Reed doesn't
>have enough inches of stretching to go around, he's screwed.
You make a good point, buy I'll also point out that in the scenario above,
someone who had bought Stretching in the form of a telescoping staff
couldn't 'go around' the glass pane.
Now, this ability to 'reach around' and potentially 'attack from behind'
seems to me to be a wee bit too powerful to just fall into the realms of
SFX; it seems to either be a small advantage on regular stretching; or
optionally a small disadvantage that could be applied to Stretching to allow
'in a straight line only'.
>Buying Indirect on Stretching is like buying Indirect on Movement Powers or
>Regeneration.
Not really; Indirect on Stretching has vast potential - after all, being
able to reach past Force Walls would be a strong advantage. Someone who
opens small 'warp gates' to reach through would be a good example of SFX for
full-blown Indirect on Stretching (while Mr. Fantastic style would be a more
limited form of Indirect).
>And I (politely) suggest that you're wrong. :] If you have the inches to
>burn, attacking from behind with Stretching is no more illegal than running
>around to a rear hex to attack.
As you said earlier; Apples and Oranges. Running is a movement power,
Stretching is not. Stretching is really a 'modifier' of an attack
power/characteristic (STR) though it can be used to deliver other powers
(damage shields, touch only RKAs, etc.).
I could probably accept 'reaching around' things if it's reasonably possible
with the normal amount of joints involved (elbow, wrist, in most cases) as
almost everyone is equipped with such. But the sort of things I've seen Reed
pull off go way, way beyond this (running his arm through many twists and
turns in a tunnel, tying himself in knots...) <smak!>
Dammit, Reed doesn't have Indirect Shapeshifting, he's got Shapeshifting +
Stretching. THAT will get you all those 'infinite joint tricks' that Reed
pulls off. Crap, why didn't I think of that earlier? Why didn't YOU think of
that? ;-)
Anyway, I still don't think baseline stretching should allow you to blithely
attack from behind.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone
else's house?"
-NHS #56
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:06:20 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Drain/Dispel/Aid vs. Multiforms and Duplicates
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 5 Jul 1997, Eric Burns wrote:
> If you dispel a dupe will he disappear?
Probably, yeah.
> If you dispel someone with duplication, will his/her duplicates
> disappear?
Well, you don't dispel characters, you dispel the results of Powers. So
no.
> If this is true, could Baker's Dozen buy a triggered dispel to save his
> duplicates when they are knocked unconscious?
Doesn't sound too unreasonable.
> If you dispel or drain someone with multiform, do they revert to their
> base form, a user defined "normal" form, or do they just become locked in
> their current form?
Depends entirely on special effects.
> Alright, here comes the power rules abuse: can you temporarily gain new
> multiforms or dupes by aiding, absorbing, or transfering your multiform or
> duplication power up?
Ditto.
> Can you define these new forms yourself? For instance, let's say Manifold
> Man has multiform with two extra forms. If he is fighting Die Flandermous
> (tm), could he use his 10d6 aid multiform to create a form that is exactly
> the same as Die Flandermous (tm) after aiding his multiform up by DF's total
> points divided by 10,
I'm leery of self-Aids on principle... this would be better done with
a Mimic Pool, as described under the rules for VPPs.
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:37:50 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Package Deals (Was: Characteristic Maxima)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Mike Sprague wrote:
> I would think Package Deals would contain minnimal Psych Disads, and
> would rarely contain hunteds. Not that they couldn't though, I just
> don't think they would be common.
I would think Hunteds would be considerably more common than Psychs in
package deals. It makes perfect sense that somebody might be an enemy of
an entire group, but giving an entire group similar personalities is kind
of boring.
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:53:35 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Bryan Berggren wrote:
> >And analyze that 125" (Stretching vs TK) for someone with 1000 STR.
>
> Not really applicable. See, to compare Stretching to TK for someone with a
> 1000 STR, you must increase the STR of the TK to 1000 (with No Range Penalty
> and Fully Indirect, 3750 points), at which point it increases its range to,
> oh, 7500". Care to buy 7500" of stretching? (18,750 if you assume it as
> non-combat)
>
> Using TK to create a "stretching" special effect is just flat out more
> efficient -- and, more to the point, OBSCENELY more efficient.
Flatly untrue. If TK is so much more efficient, can you show me a TK
construct which can duplicate the effects of 2" Stretching for
significantly less than 10 pts? Hell, can you show me one for under 20
pts?
Stretching is more efficient at the lower levels; TK is more efficient at
the higher levels. This is part of Stretching's reason for existence; it
allows you to create limited-range powers (buy the power No Range, and buy
Stretching, only for that 1 power).
2 pts per inch is arguably a better price than 5 per, but these '7500 "'
examples are kind of irrelevant.
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:55:08 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: RE: Powers that step on other powers' toes (was Re: More Than M
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> >>Another one, which I like a lot: 1d6 Major Transformation: Dead me
> >>to live me, Persistant, Continuous, Uncontrolled, Independent,
> >>Trigger: When I am dead, only on self. Whenever you die, you come
> >>back to life.
> >Until you heal your body back and the transform wears off, leaving you
> >dead again...
>
> Oh, come on. Forget your smiley? That Transform would be reversed by the
> reasonable set of circumstances called being killed again. Otherwise there
> is no way to do Resurrection in a Fantasy Hero game.
Resurrection can be done just fine with Summon. (Although resurrection
in general is probably more appropriate for superheroes than fantasy.)
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 19:11:24 -0700
From: Mike Sprague <sprague@VivaNET.com>
Reply-To: sprague@VivaNET.com
Subject: Re: Drain/Dispel/Aid vs. Multiforms and Duplicates
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Eric Burns wrote:
>
> I was wondering, what happens when you successfully drain or dispel
> someone with duplication or multiform? More specifically:
>
> If you dispel a dupe will he disapeer? If you dispel someone with
> duplication, will his/her duplicates disapeer? If this is true, could
> Baker's Dozen buy a triggered dispel to save his duplicates when they
> are knocked unconscious? Will the dupes dissapeer one after another (when
> affected by a drain or dispel) or will they all disapeer at once after
> enough points are rolled?
Hmmm, tough question, one that I have never considered. I would think
you could Drain/Dispell duplication, and the result would be that the
form(s) dissapear. In this case, to keep is simple I would play Dain
like Dispell ... all or nothing. I think. Maybe not.
On the other hand, I don't think this wold come up to often, as I
wouldn't expect someone to wast points on "Drain Duplication."
> If you dispel or drain someone with multiform, do they revert to their
> base form, a user defined "normal" form, or do they just become locked
> in their current form?
I would think you would knock them back into their base form.
In my opinion though, Multiform is not writen up correctly. It should
be an Instant Power, not a Persistent Power. The Power is actually used
to change between forms. Defining it this way works a lot better if you
want to add Limitations to the Power.
If defined this way, I would think the Drain/Dispell would lock the
character in the current form.
> Alright, here comes the power rules abuse: can you temporarily gain
> new multiforms or dupes by aiding, absorbing, or transfering your
> multiform or duplication power up?
New forms no. I would think that the forms would gain more points
however, but am not sure what you could do with those points. No new
Skills, but maybe improve existing ones? I'm not a sure. I'm not sure
about boosting characteristics either. I can see those points going
into Powers though.
> And while I'm asking all these stupid questions, let me add one more.
> How is damage handled for multiforms? For instance, if Wendy Wilson,
> the Werewolf from Wisconsin gets shot for 4 BODY and 12 STUN of
> damage in her wimpy human form, and then changes to her 12' tall
> monster werewolf form, will she still have this damage?
The rules are not at all clear on this.
Most people I know of, including the majority of this list three years
ago, play it that the damage transfers one for one to the new form. So
if the monster wearwolf has 20 BODY and takes 16 (hurting but still very
much kicking) then shifts back into Wendy Wilson, who only has 8 body,
she dies!
While that doesn't happen too often, consider that the Wearwolf has 60
STUN and has taken 41 STUN, before switching to Wendy, who has 20 STUN.
Suddenly Wendy is unconscious, and recovers only once per minute.
I think that sucks!
The reverse problem also exists. Wend takes 31 STUN and is only going
to recover once per Turn. Wendy has an accidental change Disadvantage,
when unconscious, and changes into the Wearwolf (I know this is a
stretch for this concept, but it's only an example). Suddenly the
Werewolf is up and ready to fight!
I play this one of two ways, depending on the character concept. If the
multiple forms are all one character who uses multiform to shift forms
(like the above werewolf), then the damage transfers as a percentage of
the total from one form to another. Something like Flash or Drain would
probably transfer over complete.
If Multiform is used to simulate different characters who somehow
"change places," than I transfer none of the Damage from one form to
another. However, Recoveries and Healing _only_ takes place when that
form is the active form.
The second has the problem of "charging" up a form ahead of time using
Aid or whatever, then switching to it sometime in combate. I have not
had to deal with this yet, so I am not sure what I would do. Probably
say that things normally degrade as always in this case, even though
it's not quite consistent.
~ Mike
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:41:01 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Reply-To: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> >> For instance, I'd bet dollars to donuts that almost everyone here would
> >> agree that if Animation Lad had the transformation ability of "transforms
> >> stone statue of a person into a person" he could reverse a transform
> >> done by Medusa Maid,
> >
> >I wouldn't allow that as a Transform... it's a textbook Summon.
>
> So what happens to the original Statue? Summon special effects can
> disintegrate 10-15 BODY worth of stone?
Yes, of course. Come on, how often is removing a statue going to make a
major difference? If you really think this is a game-significant effect,
use a linked Transform (or RKA), but I think this is pretty much the
definitive example of a "transform inanimate to animate" which only needs
Summon, not Summon linked to Transform.
> Also, Summon cannot be used to summon specific beings (such as the victim
> of Medusa Maid's transform).
Summon can't be defined when bought as summoning a specific being. The
result of any given application of Summon is going to be a specific being,
though. (What the heck would a non-specific being be?) The Power under
discussion is "Summon being of whom I have a statue available"; that's not
a specific being, so it's legal.
IMO, some people on this list tend to interpret the "no specific beings"
rule to disallow _way_ more than it should. The first sentence of that
paragraph adequately spells out just what sort of things it's supposed to
rule out.
> Besides, the MM's victim is now a statue. Summon can be used to heal people?
Creative use of special effects can be used to heal people. The primary
use of the power as described is not to undo stoning Transforms, and such
use is likely going to be uncommon enough that it doesn't need to be
bought specifically. As I said in the message to which you're responding,
if such things _are_ going to be common in a certain campaign, you need to
buy a Dispel.
> Can I have this power: Summon, my friends healthy and hale, max 250 active
> points, 80 AP cost?
No, and I don't really see the relevance.
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:47:27 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Eric Burns wrote:
> > > Or a transform that reverses a transform?
> >
> > Well, if all you want is to reverse Transforms, you want Dispel.
>
> Really? I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that Dispel
> could not reverse the effects of an instant power. Since Transform
> is instant, you could prevent it from taking place, but once it's
> happened you could no more reverse it than you could dispel the effects
> of a knife wound or the burns caused by an EB. Am I missing something?
This is a grey area IMO, but I think it marginalizes Dispel if it can't
undo Entangles or Transforms or Summons. (Incidentally, the description of
Summon specifically suggests Dispel as a way of getting rid of it, and
Summon is an Instant Power.) I generally let special effects decide
whether a Dispel should be able to undo the effects of an Instant Power.
So yeah, you could undo the damage from an EB if it makes sense; can't
think of any examples off-hand where it would, though.
> > > For instance, I'd bet dollars to donuts that almost everyone here would
> > > agree that if Animation Lad had the transformation ability of "transforms
> > > stone statue of a person into a person" he could reverse a transform
> > > done by Medusa Maid,
> >
> > I wouldn't allow that as a Transform... it's a textbook Summon.
>
> Erm, the textbook says that summon can not be used to summon someone
> specific, so you could summon "a young superheroine" but not
> "Lightning Lass" specifically.
Correct. "Summon Lightning Lass" would not be legal, assuming Lightning
Lass is a character who exists independently in the campaign; "Summon
young superheroine" or "Summon being represented by statue" are not
specific persons, so they're legal.
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:57:58 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Transform: I changed my mind
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Bryan Berggren wrote:
> At 09:12 AM 7/2/97 -0400, ErolB1@aol.com wrote:
> > I was all ready here to argue that Transform shouldn't be allowed to add
> > points - that was the rule in the original version of Transform (in
> > Champions III), and leaving it out of the 4th Ed is an Erratta that
> > should Be Fixed.
>
> The odd thing is, Vox is beginning to shift his viewpoints here, too.
> Trevor Barrie's example of the vampire vs. non-supernatural vampire with no
> disads struck a chord with me: he's right, dammit, there is something wrong
> that two powers with distinctly different "usefulness levels" have the exact
> same cost.
>
> But he doesn't take it far enough, because it also applies to hindering
> transforms as well. I could use a Major Transformation to inflict someone
> with a mystic "curse of hideousness" (DF: not concealable, causes disgust --
> -25 points), or I could turn them into a toad (an Incompetent level
> character, at best). And again, they cost the exact same.
But there is a means of distinguishing: the Cosmetic/Minor/Major
distinction. It's too granular, of course, but it's there. Strictly
literally, a "curse of hideousness" is clearly Cosmetic; I can't see it
ever being ruled as being more than Minor.
The three levels exist for beneficial Transforms too, of course, but
there's more potential range there, so they're more inadequate. A Major
hindering Transform should be able to completely disable its target, and
you can't really do anything worse. OTOH, there's no guideline in place
for how much you can do with a Major beneficial Transform; and if you do
set one, you can easily think of a more beneficial effect, and then you
have to figure out how you'd simulate that.
> On the other hand, given that Transform is a power as expensive as an RKA,
> which doesn't work as often as the RKA, I don't really want to interpret it
> in the "if it's useful, it's illegal" manner so often applied to Change
> Environment.
I haven't been convinced that Transform works less often than RKA.
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 22:25:03 -0500
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us>
Subject: Re: Drain/Dispel/Aid vs. Multiforms and Duplicates
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-UID: 1
At 03:00 PM 7/5/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote:
>I was wondering, what happens when you successfully drain or dispel
>someone with duplication or multiform? More specifically:
>
>If you dispel a dupe will he disapeer? If you dispel someone with
>duplication, will his/her duplicates disapeer? If this is true, could
>Baker's Dozen buy a triggered dispel to save his duplicates when they
>are knocked unconscious? Will the dupes dissapeer one after another (when
>affected by a drain or dispel) or will they all disapeer at once after
>enough points are rolled?
You sir, are a troublemaker :)
>If you dispel or drain someone with multiform, do they revert to their
>base form, a user defined "normal" form, or do they just become locked in
>their current form?
I would rule that they are locked into current form.
>Alright, here comes the power rules abuse: can you temporarily gain new
>multiforms or dupes by aiding, absorbing, or transfering your multiform or
>duplication power up? Can you define these new forms yourself? For
>instance, let's say Manifold Man has multiform with two extra forms. If
>he is fighting Die Flandermous (tm), could he use his 10d6 aid multiform
>to create a form that is exactly the same as Die Flandermous (tm) after
>aiding his multiform up by DF's total points divided by 10, and
>thereby gain all of DF's extraordinary powers and skills (until the aid
>runs out)?
I would disallow Aid to Multiform's that allow creation of a new form...
then again, I currently don't allow Multiform at all in my games... It just
creates more problems than it solves, and most such concepts can be built
other ways...
>And while I'm asking all these stupid questions, let me add one more. How
>is damage handled for multiforms? For instance, if Wendy Wilson, the
>Werewolf from Wisconsin gets shot for 4 BODY and 12 STUN of damage in her
>wimpy human form, and then changes to her 12' tall monster werewolf form,
>will she still have this damage?
Proportional I should think, The werewolf would be down 40% of it's BODY,
assuming that Wendy has a 10 Body and the 4 is After Defenses. On the other
hand, her werewolf form would then begin immediately regenerating the
damage (what? you forgot to buy regen for the werewolf, shame on you!)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 22:44:42 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Needing a name...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 2
Hi everyone, know it has been a long time since I've e-mailed the list.
I've been out of it for a while. Big back log of e-mail. Anyway, I'm
needing help with a name for a character and I thought who can I turn to?
Then I thought of the long forgotten list which I just let build up.
Anyway, can anyone help me with a name for a female archer superhero?
Please help, I'm drawing a blank here. Thanks and talk at you later.
Sparx
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Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 09:17 AM