Week Ending July 12, 1997

From: BeerCarboy@aol.com 
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:15:19 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Needing a name... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 3 
 
Sparx writes 
 
>Hi everyone, know it has been a long time since I've e-mailed the list.   
>I've been out of it for a while.  Big back log of e-mail.  Anyway, I'm  
>needing help with a name for a character and I thought who can I turn to?   
>Then I thought of the long forgotten list which I just let build up.   
>Anyway, can anyone help me with a name for a female archer superhero?   
>Please help, I'm drawing a blank here. Thanks and talk at you later. 
 I do not understand this question at all.  I can't think of a single archer 
character name that suggests either gender, they just seem to be archer names 
you know.  I mean I suppose you could have Arrowman, Arrowlad, Arrowboy (you 
could, I wouldn't) but they all contain their gender opposite within them. 
 Names like Green Arrow and Hawkeye may be currently used by male characters 
but there is nothing in them that would forbid a female from taking over the 
name. 
 
Carter Humphrey 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
                                                           BeerCarboy@AOL.com 
 
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:38:23 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Needing a name... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 4 
 
On Sat, 5 Jul 1997, Sparx wrote: 
 
> Hi everyone, know it has been a long time since I've e-mailed the list.   
> I've been out of it for a while.  Big back log of e-mail.  Anyway, I'm  
> needing help with a name for a character and I thought who can I turn to?   
> Then I thought of the long forgotten list which I just let build up.   
> Anyway, can anyone help me with a name for a female archer superhero?   
> Please help, I'm drawing a blank here. Thanks and talk at you later. 
 
Lesse: 
Fletcher 
Quarrel 
(color) Archer 
Crossbow 
Bodkin (a type of arrow head) 
Yumi (a Japanese bow) 
Longbow 
Strongbow 
Shortbow (I think I'm in a rut here) 
(other adjective) Bow 
 
I think that's it for me... 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net 
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 23:11:33 -0700 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: Needing a name... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 6 
 
>> Hi everyone, know it has been a long time since I've e-mailed the list.   
>> I've been out of it for a while.  Big back log of e-mail.  Anyway, I'm  
>> needing help with a name for a character and I thought who can I turn to?   
>> Then I thought of the long forgotten list which I just let build up.   
>> Anyway, can anyone help me with a name for a female archer superhero?   
>> Please help, I'm drawing a blank here. Thanks and talk at you later. 
> 
>Lesse: 
>Fletcher 
>Quarrel 
 
Used both of those before, good ones... in the Longbow Hunters there was a 
Japanese archer girl, they have a special name that I cant think of on the 
system right now.  I think they have the name in Ninja Hero or Ultimate 
Martial Artist, that could work. 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 03:31:34 -0400 
From: The THUNDERBIRD <thunder@bconnex.net> 
Organization: The Kingdom of Thunder 
Subject: Re: Needing a name... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 7 
 
Christopher Taylor wrote: 
> 
> Used both of those before, good ones... in the Longbow Hunters there was a 
> Japanese archer girl, they have a special name that I cant think of  
 
The Assassin from Mike Grell's Longbow Hunters series, was known as 
SHADO - she was also the mother of the present incarnation of the Green 
Arrow, just for your info, don't ya know :-) 
 
The Thunderbird 
 
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified) 
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 08:24:50 -0500 
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us> 
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 9 
 
>> Also, Summon cannot be used to summon specific beings (such as the victim 
>> of Medusa Maid's transform). 
> 
>Summon can't be defined when bought as summoning a specific being. The 
>result of any given application of Summon is going to be a specific being, 
>though. (What the heck would a non-specific being be?) The Power under 
>discussion is "Summon being of whom I have a statue available"; that's not 
>a specific being, so it's legal. 
>IMO, some people on this list tend to interpret the "no specific beings" 
>rule to disallow _way_ more than it should. The first sentence of that 
>paragraph adequately spells out just what sort of things it's supposed to 
>rule out. 
> 
>> Can I have this power: Summon, my friends healthy and hale, max 250 active 
>> points, 80 AP cost? 
> 
>No, and I don't really see the relevance. 
> 
 
	But, according to your first answer, it is perfectly legal and reasonable. 
 
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 06:35:47 -0700 
From: Mike Sprague <sprague@VivaNET.com> 
Reply-To: sprague@VivaNET.com 
Subject: Re: Package Deals (Was: Characteristic Maxima) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 8 
 
Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>  
> On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Mike Sprague wrote: 
>  
> > I would think Package Deals would contain minnimal Psych Disads, and 
> > would rarely contain hunteds.  Not that they couldn't though, I just 
> > don't think they would be common. 
>  
> I would think Hunteds would be considerably more common than Psychs in 
> package deals. It makes perfect sense that somebody might be an enemy of 
> an entire group, but giving an entire group similar personalities is kind 
> of boring. 
 
Good point, but I'm not sure I agree.  As far as the Psych lims go, I 
was thinking about sense of Duty, Follows orders, that sort of thing.  I 
woudl still expect them to be quite uncommon though. 
 
I realy don't buy the Hunted argument for most groups, because I find it 
hard to believe that 'X' is is actually hunting each member of the 
group.  'X' may not like that group as a whole, and may go out of his 
way to cause them problems, but I can't see him taking time to hunt each 
member. 
 
				~ Mike 
 
From: Legionair@aol.com 
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 10:37:58 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Needing a name... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 12 
 
In a message dated 97-07-06 03:59:17 EDT, thunder@bconnex.net (The 
THUNDERBIRD) writes: 
 
<< The Assassin from Mike Grell's Longbow Hunters series, was known as 
 SHADO - she was also the mother of the present incarnation of the Green 
 Arrow, just for your info, don't ya know :-) >> 
 
Just for the record, I don't think that Shado was the current GA's mother. 
 The age differences just don't match up.  The last time the kid was seen 
(about two years ago) he was a toddler. 
 
Jason 
 
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> 
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 14:48:51 +0000 
Subject: RE: Powers that step on other powers' toes (was Re: More Than    
Reply-to: guyhoyle@iname.com 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 30 
 
 
> >>> >>Another one, which I like a lot: 1d6 Major Transformation: Dead me  
> >>> >>to live me, Persistent, Continuous, Uncontrolled, Independent,  
> >>> >>Trigger: When I am dead, only on self. Whenever you die, you come  
> >>> >>back to life. 
> >>> >Until you heal your body back and the transform wears off, leaving you 
> >>> >dead again...  
> >>> Oh, come on.  Forget your smiley?  That Transform would be reversed by the 
> >>> reasonable set of circumstances called being killed again.  Otherwise there 
> >>> is no way to do Resurrection in a Fantasy Hero game. 
> >>Resurrection can be done just fine with Summon. (Although resurrection  
> >>in general is probably more appropriate for superheroes than fantasy.) 
> > 
> >Resurrection can NOT be done with Summon.  
>  
> It was explicitly done like that in Mythic Greece, I think. Anyone got 
> the book to confirm it? 
 
Yes, I do, and it does, although MG was for 1st edition Fantasy Hero,  
which allowed you to summon specific beings (such as yourself, in  
this case).  Neither Summoning nor Transforms will work on the caster  
in 4th edition Hero System rules, so we're still left without an  
"official" way to resurrect anybody in game terms.  However, I have  
no problem granting limited exemptions in these cases, maybe even  
charging them a small Advantage for the privelege. 
 
 
---------------------------------- 
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com) 
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/ 
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf 
and the PANGAEA Project! 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 09:57:45 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 13 
 
At 03:09 PM 7/5/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote: 
>This is a good point, and it gives me an idea.  How about the amount that 
>you can bend an outstreched arm or whatever be like the turning rate with 
>flight, and the distance between turns could be decreased by buying levels 
>with stretching, like you do with flight?  Just a thought... 
 
I'd consider a turn mode on Stretching to be an extra limitation; "base" 
Stretching would be analogous to Running, and have no turn mode. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 09:57:47 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 15 
 
At 04:06 PM 7/5/97 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
> You make a good point, buy I'll also point out that in the scenario  
> above, someone who had bought Stretching in the form of a telescoping 
> staff couldn't 'go around' the glass pane. 
> 
> Now, this ability to 'reach around' and potentially 'attack from behind' 
> seems to me to be a wee bit too powerful to just fall into the realms  
> of SFX; it seems to either be a small advantage on regular stretching; 
> or optionally a small disadvantage that could be applied to Stretching  
> to allow 'in a straight line only'. 
 
Given that Stretching is already obscenely overpriced, go with the 
limitation.  Actually, you can find the value for that limitation in the 
book: the "one hex row firing arc" would parallel over nicely. 
 
> Not really; Indirect on Stretching has vast potential - after all, being 
> able to reach past Force Walls would be a strong advantage. Someone who 
> opens small 'warp gates' to reach through would be a good example of SFX 
> for full-blown Indirect on Stretching (while Mr. Fantastic style would be 
> a more limited form of Indirect). 
 
As I'm reading it, Indirect affects the ORIGIN point of a Power.  So the 
"warp gate" example might work, but what that would do is set the new origin 
point of the stretching limb -- say, "skip the hex in front of me, and start 
stretching from the next hex".  This is more a way to create anatomical 
separation than wrap-around. 
 
>As you said earlier; Apples and Oranges. Running is a movement power, 
>Stretching is not. Stretching is really a 'modifier' of an attack 
>power/characteristic (STR) though it can be used to deliver other powers 
>(damage shields, touch only RKAs, etc.). 
 
No, Indirect is a modifier.  Stretching is a Power -- what it "modifies" is 
YOU, the character.  It affects all the character's abilities in a certain 
way -- specifically, it allows the character to effectively be in two (or 
more) places at once, and use all of his other powers relative to either 
location.  In effect, Stretching can be considered "Character, +3/4 Indirect". 
 
One wierd ramification of this I just thought of: GMs, how would you handle 
it if someone picked up a gun, stretched his arm out to point blank range, 
and fired?  Does he calculate range mods from the "home" hex or the "gun" hex? 
 
> I could probably accept 'reaching around' things if it's reasonably 
> possible with the normal amount of joints involved (elbow, wrist, in  
> most cases) as almost everyone is equipped with such. But the sort of 
> things I've seen Reed pull off go way, way beyond this (running his arm 
> through many twists and turns in a tunnel, tying himself in knots...) 
> <smak!> 
> 
> Dammit, Reed doesn't have Indirect Shapeshifting, he's got Shapeshifting 
> + Stretching. THAT will get you all those 'infinite joint tricks' that 
> Reed pulls off. Crap, why didn't I think of that earlier? Why didn't YOU 
> think of that? ;-) 
 
Um ... would you like to see how I build plasticity characters? 
Shapeshifting is par for the course.  We were just talking about glass 
panes, so it didn't come up. :] 
 
> Anyway, I still don't think baseline stretching should allow you to 
> blithely attack from behind.  
 
The way I see it, using Stretching to wrap around a character and attack is 
legal (maybe as a way to get past conditional defenses like a shield).  This 
may or may not also count as a "surprise maneuver", depending on how 
original the tactic is when used  -- as a general rule, since the defender 
can watch the arms wrapping around him, I'd say +2 OCV if he doesn't know 
the character can stretch, +1 if he does know, +0 if the character has ever 
used this maneuver on him before.  And a character who does it more than 
twice in a single combat is looking at a Munchkin Maneuver Penalty (tm: Erol 
K. Bayburt) of -1 to -3 OCV. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 09:57:52 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: Transform: I changed my mind 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 14 
 
At 11:57 PM 7/5/97 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>But there is a means of distinguishing: the Cosmetic/Minor/Major 
>distinction. It's too granular, of course, but it's there. Strictly 
>literally, a "curse of hideousness" is clearly Cosmetic; I can't see it 
>ever being ruled as being more than Minor. 
 
It's certainly not "clearly" Cosmetic.  By my interpretation, a Cosmetic 
transform is one that won't touch the character sheet; "curse of 
hideousness" adds (at the very least) the largest possible Distinctive 
Feature disadvantage -- that's a 25 point hit, which is much more 
significant than "minor CV penalties" used as a guideline for Change 
Environment and Minor Transforms. 
 
And I think you wanted to say "it's not granular enough", since the example 
which started me thinking consisted of two wildly different MAJOR Transforms. 
 
-- 
 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 09:57:54 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 16 
 
At 09:53 PM 7/5/97 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>Flatly untrue. If TK is so much more efficient, can you show me a TK 
>construct which can duplicate the effects of 2" Stretching for 
>significantly less than 10 pts? Hell, can you show me one for under 20 
>pts? 
> 
>Stretching is more efficient at the lower levels; TK is more efficient at 
>the higher levels. 
 
No, it's more accurate to say "Stretching HAS lower levels, TK doesn't". 
I'll freely admit, my "TK: SFX Stretching" power has a minimum cost (25 
points for the average character).  That doesn't affect "efficiency" -- 
efficiency is a matter of how much you spend vs. how much you get, which 
means to compare examples you must pick examples with as close game effects 
as possible.  That's why I say that if you're dealing with a Stretching 
brick, you must compare the effects to a brick-level TK. 
 
> This is part of Stretching's reason for existence; it allows you to create 
> limited-range powers (buy the power No Range, and buy Stretching, only  
> for that 1 power). 
 
If that's part of its reason to exist, it's doing a lousy job.  To quote 
Richard Jeni, let's go to the map: 
 
        6d6 Energy Blast.  Startin range == 150".  Costs 30 points. 
        I buy it no range.  I save 10 points. 
        3" Stretching, Only w/ EB (-1/2), No Noncombat (-1/4). 9 points. 
 
For a loss of *147"* range, I get ONE point back.  Oh, yeah, and I have to 
burn an extra END on the power.  If I buy one more inch of Stretching (or 
buy it 0 END), I'm paying MORE for the "short range" power than I would for 
the full range version! 
 
You don't find this completely ludicrous?  Have we entered some twilight 
zone where a power that's less utilizable is now considered MORE useful? 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Subject: RE: Powers that step on other powers' toes (was Re: More Than   M 
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 97 10:22:26 -0500 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 10 
 
Trevor Barrie 
 
>On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
> 
>> >>Another one, which I like a lot: 1d6 Major Transformation: Dead me  
>> >>to live me, Persistent, Continuous, Uncontrolled, Independent,  
>> >>Trigger: When I am dead, only on self. Whenever you die, you come  
>> >>back to life. 
>> >Until you heal your body back and the transform wears off, leaving you 
>> >dead again...  
>> Oh, come on.  Forget your smiley?  That Transform would be reversed by the 
>> reasonable set of circumstances called being killed again.  Otherwise there 
>> is no way to do Resurrection in a Fantasy Hero game. 
>Resurrection can be done just fine with Summon. (Although resurrection  
>in general is probably more appropriate for superheroes than fantasy.) 
 
Resurrection can NOT be done with Summon.  Summon can only call a  
preexisting 
creature of a generic type from one location (possibly another plane) to  
the 
users location.  This kills the resurrection construct on two grounds.   
First, 
a specific individual needs to be resurrected, not simply a member of a  
generic 
class.  Secondly, even if you COULD target a specific individual (with GM  
permission) a spirit would appear, since that individual is dead.  A  
Transform 
is the only way to accomplish this effect. 
 
Finally, I'd have to say resurrection is, in general, extremely  
appropriate to  
fantasy campaigns than any other.  Every Fantasy system I've ever seen  
has this  
spell, usually marked with the equivalent of a stop sign to be sure, as  
calling 
the dead back from the great beyond is part and parcel of fantasy... 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
| Name: John P. Weatherman    | Phone:                             |       
   
| email: asahoshi@nr.infi.net |    (H) (910) 785-1130              | 
| fax:   (910) 748-4632       |    (O) (910) 545-2722              | 
|_____________________________|____________________________________| 
| He who walking on the sea could calm the bitter waves, who gives | 
| life to the dying seeds of the earth; He who was able to loose   | 
| the mortal chains of death and after three days' darkness could  | 
| bring again to the upper world the brother of his sister Martha: | 
| He, I beleive, will make Damasus rise again from the dust.       | 
|                              Pope St. Damasus I (c.305-384)      | 
|__________________________________________________________________| 
 
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye 
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 97 10:36:04 -0500 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 11 
 
Earl Kwallek 
 
>>IMO, some people on this list tend to interpret the "no specific beings" 
>>rule to disallow _way_ more than it should. The first sentence of that 
>>paragraph adequately spells out just what sort of things it's supposed to 
>>rule out. 
 
"A character with this Standard Power can summon a creature from the  
abyss, 
another dimension, or somewhere on earth." 
 
This doesn't seem to mesh with any kind of an "undo transform effect".   
After all the subject of a transform is right there, not somewhere else.   
So how are you "summoning" it from another location? 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
| Name: John P. Weatherman    | Phone:                             |       
   
| email: asahoshi@nr.infi.net |    (H) (910) 785-1130              | 
| fax:   (910) 748-4632       |    (O) (910) 545-2722              | 
|_____________________________|____________________________________| 
| He who walking on the sea could calm the bitter waves, who gives | 
| life to the dying seeds of the earth; He who was able to loose   | 
| the mortal chains of death and after three days' darkness could  | 
| bring again to the upper world the brother of his sister Martha: | 
| He, I beleive, will make Damasus rise again from the dust.       | 
|                              Pope St. Damasus I (c.305-384)      | 
|__________________________________________________________________| 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 06 Jul 1997 11:54:32 -0400 
Lines: 44 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 18 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BB" == Bryan Berggren <ludator@softfarm.com> writes: 
 
BB> In any case, Indirect really isn't appropriate for Stretching anyways, 
BB> because it's defined as "ignoring intervening barriers between the 
BB> attacker and the target".  There is no "target" with Stretching -- it's 
BB> a power that lets you "occupy" more than one space temporarily, 
BB> increasing your natural reach. 
 
Nope: 
	A character with this Standard Power can stretch parts of his body, 
	attack at range, and reach for things at long distance. 
 
Growth allows you to occupy more than one hex; Stretching allows you to 
extend your hand to hand range beyond a single hex. 
 
Now, for Indirect: 
 
	A Power with this Advantage ignores intervening barriers between 
	the attacker and the target.  These intervening barriers include 
	walls, fences, and even Force Walls, but not personal defenses like 
	Force Field or Armor. 
 
Based on those statements I think that in order to go over the Great Wall 
to hit BadGuyduJour, regardless of the power used in the attack, you need 
to have Indirect on that power.  Fair is fair, after all: if TK requires it 
then Stretching should also require it. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBM7+/tZ6VRH7BJMxHAQHDKwP/cgdcj9hB2xEFJtZ8lGwizz4jyuk1fEY2 
45FQbkXfyaS+L7PskHNRJZORl1hMXN4IBsZ98WBr1LJ9MI1aUZCCqTLUaKZy2wRS 
6iuEIbeNqgC0qTIeTKJZbM6F1xkEcYe6Egdtsxa6cerYUwEwmd+T4E2+RVxg/Qy7 
3owtlm1XVQg= 
=mqPt 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Package Deals (Was: Characteristic Maxima) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 06 Jul 1997 11:58:39 -0400 
Lines: 31 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 17 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TB" == Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> writes: 
 
TB> I would think Hunteds would be considerably more common than Psychs in 
TB> package deals. It makes perfect sense that somebody might be an enemy 
TB> of an entire group, but giving an entire group similar personalities is 
TB> kind of boring. 
 
It depends on the group, really.  If the organization specifically screens 
for certain psychological traits then the package associated with it might 
have a Psychological Limitation as a componenet.  Such organizations will 
be the exception rather than the rule, though.  Hunteds and Repuatations 
are much more appropriate for packages.  "No, ma'am, we at the FBI have no 
sense of humor that we are aware of." 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBM7/ApJ6VRH7BJMxHAQGE2gQAgkyRKQGUQ1heFaGKFAKJE8LQqsyomR9P 
na4bYR+1s4vLQZrOAn3mQs+lVyp3TTHbA/H5d1vZE9j+iTo/vPnb3IqEgTgcw7Q9 
AFkTuvkfgBoH6+1RYGWgpbTYQ2NbnXCRmjezAQyi3+xWctnVrAlTU+JkHix3O6AK 
cITp7TsPQyM= 
=vmPU 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Package Deals (Was: Characteristic Maxima) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 06 Jul 1997 12:06:12 -0400 
Lines: 35 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 19 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "MS" == Mike Sprague <sprague@VivaNET.com> writes: 
 
MS> I realy don't buy the Hunted argument for most groups, because I find 
MS> it hard to believe that 'X' is is actually hunting each member of the 
MS> group.  'X' may not like that group as a whole, and may go out of his 
MS> way to cause them problems, but I can't see him taking time to hunt 
MS> each member. 
 
Such Hunteds represent "X" hunting members of the group as the whole group, 
not as individuals, and that in the course of that group's activities the 
individuals will be hassled by "X".  To wit, the "generic thug" package 
might have something like "Hunted: Police, 8-".  This does not mean that 
the entire police force will actively be hunting every thug; it means that 
every now and then a generic thug will be caught and arrested by a couple 
of cops. 
 
Yes, even Disadvantages can have special effects. :) 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBM7/Cb56VRH7BJMxHAQF4hQP+OU8k86XJMeL7zBysraK489LHXqqlTnoK 
/tOHkc1N+bTSBi060eOHpp1tHwV1wu/ACu76k18j49HNvM5VVHUxonn+ZQaEDE2E 
twChIgNQh9UM2nHdt0alRhN19nrxzaHHkAzhU8AICuEITRBq3X4kXtS3ENh2d5Bm 
QHSIMatDpto= 
=+tLY 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should 
                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <swhbfssg@pop.softnet.co.uk> 
From: "MarkBarltrop" <swhbfssg@pop.softnet.co.uk> 
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 17:52:33 +0100 
Subject: Re: Needing a name... 
Return-receipt-to: "MarkBarltrop" <swhbfssg@pop.softnet.co.uk> 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 20 
 
On  5 Jul 97 at 22:44, Sparx wrote: 
 
> Hi everyone, know it has been a long time since I've e-mailed the 
> list.  I've been out of it for a while.  Big back log of e-mail.  
> Anyway, I'm needing help with a name for a character and I thought 
> who can I turn to?  Then I thought of the long forgotten list which 
> I just let build up.  Anyway, can anyone help me with a name for a 
> female archer superhero?  Please help, I'm drawing a blank here. 
> Thanks and talk at you later. 
>  
Diana, Artemis (after the Roman and Greek goddesses of the hunt  - I  
think one or the other was used as the name of one of Maxie Zeus'  
New Olympians (in a Batman and the Outsiders just before the Crisis)) 
Maid Marion 
Mark Barltrop (tachyon@kzin.softnet.co.uk) 
'What is it?' 
'Its a wolf!' 
'In a city? What does it find to eat?' 
'Oh, why did you have to ask that?' 
(Terry Pratchett,'Feet of Clay') 
 
From: ErolB1@aol.com 
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:31:57 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Transform Guidelines (1st Draft) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 22 
 
Here's a first-draft attempt to create some guidelines on what Transform can 
and cannot do. Rip it appart at your leisure.  
 
Erol K. Bayburt 
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow 
 
************************************************************************ 
Essay on Transform Guidelines:  
 
1. When Transforming an object or substance into another object or substance: 
 
 
     * Minor Transforms (10 pts/die) may double the value of the original 
object 
     * Major Transforms (15 pts/die) may triple the value of the original 
object 
 
Further increases in the value of the original object are possible only with 
special GM permission. The GM may require that the character also buy an 
appropriate Perk or Power (e.g. Wealth: Filthy Rich) to fully represent this. 
 
 
Transforming an object into a character, automaton or vehicle requires a 
Major Transform, and follows the same guidelines as Major Transforms on 
characters (below).  
 
2. When using a Minor Transform (10 pts/die) on a character:  
 
The Transform may reduce (take points from) the target character's Powers, 
Attributes, etc. but may not add to them. It may also add Disadvantages to 
the target character. However, the Transform must leave the target character 
at greater than half its original overall effectiveness. For example, if the 
target character was hostile and opposed to you, the Transform must leave the 
target character hostile and able to oppose you at greater than half it's 
former effectiveness. When in doubt, err on the side of leaving the target 
character more powerful and capable.  
 
Furthermore, a Minor Transform may not add Psychological Limitations (or 
other disadvantages) that directly reduce the target character's hostility or 
willingness to attack.  
 
3. When using a Major Transform (15 pts/die) on a character:  
 
Normally this is used to Transform the target character into something 
helpless and harmless. As long as this is the case - as long as the 
Transformed target character is of no more use or value than a captive or a 
dead body - then the Transform may freely add, subtract and rearrange 
character points.  
 
Alternatively, a Major Transform may be used to greatly weaken a target 
character without making the target completely helpless and harmless. For 
this, follow the guidelines of a Minor Transform, except that the Major 
Transform may reduce the character's overall effectiveness to less than half 
it's original value.  
 
Finally, a Major Transform may convert a target character (or object) into a 
useful character, automaton or vehicle. In this case, the Transform power may 
not produce characters with a greater point total than could a Summon power 
with an equal number of active points (i.e. 30 points to produce a 0 point 
character, plus 1 point for every additional 5 points in the Transformed 
target). The GM must individually approve each character, automaton, or 
vehicle produced by this sort of Transformation just as he must approve of 
any Summoned creature. The GM may also require characters with this sort of 
Transform to buy appropriate an appropriate Follower or Vehicle Perk to fully 
represent the usefulness of the Transformed target to the character.  
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:34:55 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 23 
 
>BB> In any case, Indirect really isn't appropriate for Stretching anyways, 
>BB> because it's defined as "ignoring intervening barriers between the 
>BB> attacker and the target".  There is no "target" with Stretching -- it's 
>BB> a power that lets you "occupy" more than one space temporarily, 
>BB> increasing your natural reach. 
> 
>Nope: 
>	A character with this Standard Power can stretch parts of his body, 
>	attack at range, and reach for things at long distance. 
> 
>Growth allows you to occupy more than one hex; Stretching allows you to 
>extend your hand to hand range beyond a single hex. 
> 
>Now, for Indirect: 
> 
>	A Power with this Advantage ignores intervening barriers between 
>	the attacker and the target.  These intervening barriers include 
>	walls, fences, and even Force Walls, but not personal defenses like 
>	Force Field or Armor. 
> 
>Based on those statements I think that in order to go over the Great Wall 
>to hit BadGuyduJour, regardless of the power used in the attack, you need 
>to have Indirect on that power.  Fair is fair, after all: if TK requires it 
>then Stretching should also require it. 
 
<gasp!> Someone agrees with me on this one! Wow! 
 
Though I now think that a number of different powers could substitute for 
Indirect on Stretching; like Shapeshifting, and possibly Desolidification 
(esp. if you bought 'Affects Solid' on your STR). But that's neither here 
nor there... 
 
Anyway, to change topics, is anyone else bugged by the lousy limitations you 
get if you buy a little Stretching on a weapon? Specifically 'Only for 
Weapon Maneuvers' (-0). With a staff or polearm, that's effectively 'Can't 
Grab', which is worth at least a -1/2 IMHO. A whip would be less limited, 
but would warrant 'can't manipulate' for -1/4, as it may grab or strike or 
drag towards, but certainly can't push buttons or turn over things in a 
delicate manner. Which you could do with 'ordinary' Stretching. 
 
Personally, I'd like to leave this sort of Stretching to 'Weapon, Not Limb' 
for a -1/2, and leave it to GM judgement as to the exact SFX of what you 
can/can't do. This may seem like a fairly big limitation, but give 
'ordinary' Stretching to a Martial Artist and watch out...or is this sort of 
thing covered by the 'Focus' limitation? I'd say not... 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
From: ErolB1@aol.com 
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 14:13:46 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Needing a name... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 27 
 
In a message dated 97-07-06 00:05:56 EDT,  psansone@i1.net writes: 
 
> Anyway, can anyone help me with a name for a female archer superhero?   
>  Please help, I'm drawing a blank here. Thanks and talk at you lat 
 
Off the top of my head:  
 
Marian (as in 'Maid Marian') 
Artemis (or Diana, after the Greek/Roman goddesses) 
Moonbow (y'know, I rather like this one...I may use it myself) 
 
Erol K. Bayburt 
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow 
 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 97 13:23:01 -0500 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 21 
 
Stainless Steel Rat 
 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>Now, for Indirect: 
> 
>	A Power with this Advantage ignores intervening barriers between 
>	the attacker and the target.  These intervening barriers include 
>	walls, fences, and even Force Walls, but not personal defenses like 
>	Force Field or Armor. 
> 
>Based on those statements I think that in order to go over the Great Wall 
>to hit BadGuyduJour, regardless of the power used in the attack, you need 
>to have Indirect on that power.  Fair is fair, after all: if TK requires it 
>then Stretching should also require it. 
 
The stretching character isn't "ignoring" the barrier however, he's  
circumventing it.  This seems to be the important diferance, at least to 
me.  Indirect means I can hit someone in a closed room without making an 
opening in the walls, ceiling or floor.  The Stretching character can't  
do that.  He can only go around barriers, not ignore them. 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
| Name: John P. Weatherman    | Phone:                             |       
   
| email: asahoshi@nr.infi.net |    (H) (910) 785-1130              | 
| fax:   (910) 748-4632       |    (O) (910) 545-2722              | 
|_____________________________|____________________________________| 
| He who walking on the sea could calm the bitter waves, who gives | 
| life to the dying seeds of the earth; He who was able to loose   | 
| the mortal chains of death and after three days' darkness could  | 
| bring again to the upper world the brother of his sister Martha: | 
| He, I beleive, will make Damasus rise again from the dust.       | 
|                              Pope St. Damasus I (c.305-384)      | 
|__________________________________________________________________| 
 
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@csci.csc.com> 
Subject: Re: Needing a name... 
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 13:48:39 CDT 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 28 
 
> Hi everyone, know it has been a long time since I've e-mailed the list.   
> I've been out of it for a while.  Big back log of e-mail.  Anyway, I'm  
> needing help with a name for a character and I thought who can I turn to?   
> Then I thought of the long forgotten list which I just let build up.   
> Anyway, can anyone help me with a name for a female archer superhero?   
> Please help, I'm drawing a blank here. Thanks and talk at you later. 
 
Black Feather, my wife suggests, or "blank" feather, where the blank 
is the color of your quills... 
 
 
DonM. 
 
-- 
============================================================================ 
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist,           (217) 351-8250 x2365 =  
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL       dmckinne@csci.csc.com = 
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998    = 
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org       (217) 469-9917 =  
============================================================================ 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"John and Ron Prins\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 97 18:51:34  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 24 
 
On Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:08:29 -0400 (EDT), John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
>>>>>How so? a 1 pip AP (vs Hardened), Pen, Cum, 0 End Uncontrolled Major 
>>>>>Transform is *really* nasty. Now add in Sticky <hehe>. 
>>>> 
>>>>Not really. 2 pips of Power Defense will stop it cold  
>> 
>>This is what the Penetrating iadvantage is for. 
>> 
>>>>- note that 1 pip of 
>>>>Transform cannot 'roll BODY' on the die, making Penetrating a meaningless 
>> 
>>Yes it can, because it *is* 'BODY'. 
> 
>No, no, no. 'Penetrating' counts the 'BODY' the attack _would_ have done if 
>it was a straight 'normal' attack - i.e. 0 BODY on a roll of 1, 1 BODY on a 
>roll of 2 through 5, and 2 BODY on a roll of 6. 
 
<snip> 
 
You're right: I should have read more closely. 
 
Mea culpa. 
 
qts 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"John P Weatherman\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 97 18:57:34  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: RE: Powers that step on other powers' toes (was Re: More Than   M 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 25 
 
On Sun, 6 Jul 97 10:22:26 -0500, John P Weatherman wrote: 
 
>Trevor Barrie 
> 
>>On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>> 
>>> >>Another one, which I like a lot: 1d6 Major Transformation: Dead me  
>>> >>to live me, Persistent, Continuous, Uncontrolled, Independent,  
>>> >>Trigger: When I am dead, only on self. Whenever you die, you come  
>>> >>back to life. 
>>> >Until you heal your body back and the transform wears off, leaving you 
>>> >dead again...  
>>> Oh, come on.  Forget your smiley?  That Transform would be reversed by the 
>>> reasonable set of circumstances called being killed again.  Otherwise there 
>>> is no way to do Resurrection in a Fantasy Hero game. 
>>Resurrection can be done just fine with Summon. (Although resurrection  
>>in general is probably more appropriate for superheroes than fantasy.) 
> 
>Resurrection can NOT be done with Summon.  
 
It was explicitly done like that in Mythic Greece, I think. Anyone got 
the book to confirm it? 
 
qts 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Needing a name... 
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 15:53:32 -0400 (EDT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 31 
 
> Hi everyone, know it has been a long time since I've e-mailed the list.   
> I've been out of it for a while.  Big back log of e-mail.  Anyway, I'm  
> needing help with a name for a character and I thought who can I turn to?   
> Then I thought of the long forgotten list which I just let build up.   
> Anyway, can anyone help me with a name for a female archer superhero?   
> Please help, I'm drawing a blank here. Thanks and talk at you later. 
>  
> Sparx 
>  
 
Diana (after the Greek goddess) 
Huntress (I'm sure this name has been used before...) 
Longbow Lass 
Sureshot 
Robyn Hood 
Ranger 
The <color other than green> Arrow 
 
-Eric 
 
Subject: RE: Powers that step on other powers' toes (was Re: More Than   M 
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 97 14:54:52 -0500 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 29 
 
qts 
 
>On Sun, 6 Jul 97 10:22:26 -0500, John P Weatherman wrote: 
> 
>>Trevor Barrie 
>> 
>>>On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>>> 
>>>> >>Another one, which I like a lot: 1d6 Major Transformation: Dead me  
>>>> >>to live me, Persistent, Continuous, Uncontrolled, Independent,  
>>>> >>Trigger: When I am dead, only on self. Whenever you die, you come  
>>>> >>back to life. 
>>>> >Until you heal your body back and the transform wears off, leaving you 
>>>> >dead again...  
>>>> Oh, come on.  Forget your smiley?  That Transform would be reversed by the 
>>>> reasonable set of circumstances called being killed again.  Otherwise  
there 
>>>> is no way to do Resurrection in a Fantasy Hero game. 
>>>Resurrection can be done just fine with Summon. (Although resurrection  
>>>in general is probably more appropriate for superheroes than fantasy.) 
>> 
>>Resurrection can NOT be done with Summon.  
> 
>It was explicitly done like that in Mythic Greece, I think. Anyone got 
>the book to confirm it? 
 
I'd not even think of denying that the folks at Hero ignore their own  
rules  
from time to time. :).  Whether it was erroniously done that way or not,  
the 
rules don't support it. 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
| Name: John P. Weatherman    | Phone:                             |       
   
| email: asahoshi@nr.infi.net |    (H) (910) 785-1130              | 
| fax:   (910) 748-4632       |    (O) (910) 545-2722              | 
|_____________________________|____________________________________| 
| He who walking on the sea could calm the bitter waves, who gives | 
| life to the dying seeds of the earth; He who was able to loose   | 
| the mortal chains of death and after three days' darkness could  | 
| bring again to the upper world the brother of his sister Martha: | 
| He, I beleive, will make Damasus rise again from the dust.       | 
|                              Pope St. Damasus I (c.305-384)      | 
|__________________________________________________________________| 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: Needing a name...  
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 15:59:56 -0400 (EDT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 32 
 
> On Sat, 5 Jul 1997, Sparx wrote: 
>  
> Yumi (a Japanese bow) 
>  
 
Hero Man: So, why are called Yummy? 
 
Yumi: For the last time, it's Yu-mi, YOU-ME!!! It's a type of bow!! 
 
Hero Man (Not paying attention): Uh-huh, you know, that's a really nice 
costume you're wearing... 
 
Yumi: I wonder if it's too late to change my name to Blue Arrow??! 
 
 
erm, sorry... i couldn't resist 
 
-Eric 
 
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 14:11:23 -0700 
From: Mike Sprague <sprague@VivaNET.com> 
Reply-To: sprague@VivaNET.com 
Subject: Re: Package Deals (Was: Characteristic Maxima) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 26 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> MS> I realy don't buy the Hunted argument for most groups, because I find 
> MS> it hard to believe that 'X' is is actually hunting each member of the 
> MS> group.  'X' may not like that group as a whole, and may go out of his 
> MS> way to cause them problems, but I can't see him taking time to hunt 
> MS> each member. 
>  
> Such Hunteds represent "X" hunting members of the group as the whole group, 
> not as individuals, and that in the course of that group's activities the 
> individuals will be hassled by "X".  To wit, the "generic thug" package 
> might have something like "Hunted: Police, 8-".  This does not mean that 
> the entire police force will actively be hunting every thug; it means that 
> every now and then a generic thug will be caught and arrested by a couple 
> of cops. 
 
Yes, this is one of the cases that makes sense.  That's why I said 
_most_ groups.  There are a lot of police, all over the country, and for 
that matter, world.  I automatically give supervillions "Hunted: Law 
Enforcement," at a level based on how hard the law is looking for that 
villian. 
 
However, I was speaking more of Package Deals for larger organizations 
that a character might be a member of.  I have a problem in giving an 
orgainzation Package Deal a hunted by a specific supervillian or 
supervillian group.  That villian/group might harass an organization 
member if run into, but in general will not be hunting that 
orgainization, specifically not it's individual members.  If the hunted 
was another large orgainization (like maybe VIPER), then maybe I could 
buy it. 
 
			~ Mike 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net> 
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:09:49 +0000 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 36 
 
I have been looking through my copy of the 4th Edition errata sheet,  
and have discovered a pertinent passage. 
 
"Page 84, Stretching: Add the following sentence to the end of the first 
paragraph: "A character can double his noncombat stretching for +5  
points." 
 
So, apparently, NCM is supposed to apply to shrinking, but was left  
out. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net> 
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:21:52 +0000 
Subject: Re: Damage Resistance(Powers that step on other powers' toes) 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 40 
 
> At 03:11 AM 03/07/97 +0000, you wrote: 
>  
> >That interpretation is ballistic vests, of the sort worn by police.  
> >If you wear a ballistic vest, a bullet may not penetrate, but it can  
> >still break ribs or severely bruise you. So, rather than 9 PD Armor,  
> >only stops half STUN, vests in my world are 6PD Armor, 6PD Damage  
> >Resistance. IOW, if you wear the vest, the tougher you are, the less  
> >it damages you when you get shot. 
> > 
> >Note that it would take an above average .44 Magnum (2d6 RKA) to do  
> >body damage to the average man, and it would be almost impossible to  
> >kill him, even using hit locations, so long as the bullet hit the  
> >vest. This also makes the vest less effective at stopping normal  
> >damage BODY than the present version. I prefer this, because under  
> >the present system, a baseball bat can do more BODY damage to a man  
> >wearing plate and chain armor than to a man wearing a vest. In the  
> >real world, soft armor doesn't do that. 
> > 
> >Filksinger 
> >"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
>  
> This seems to work, and a clever idea.  Still 6PD Damage Resistance 
> is fairly high(not that many cops have 6PD).  Even with a PD of just 
> 4, that's 10 damage that's going to be stopped by the vest.  Are 
> they really that good in real life? 
>  
 
Depends on how you look at it. Bullets do bruise through the vests,  
but are bruises BODY or STUN? Sometimes they are BODY, but past  
experience has taught me that a man with ten bruises is not dying. 
 
If the vest stops too much, then you never get BODY damage.  
However, if the vest stops too little, you still have a problem.  
No cop in the United States was ever killed by a failure of his  
vest to protect him. A shot to the vitals (x2 BODY) could kill, if it  
did as little as 3 points of BODY through the vest before the  
multiple, using the impairing rules. Thus, the vest must stop,  
almost every time, all but 2 BODY, in order to get this degree of  
reliability. I may have underpowered this armor, in its effects  
against BODY. 
 
However, I think I got it about right. After all, in order to kill  
through my present armor, a crook would have to use a .44 Magnum, hit  
very solidly, hit Vitals, hit a character with no more than 3 PD,  
_and_ it is still only a _possibility_ that they could die ("An  
impairing shot to the vitals may leave an NPC dead or dying, if  
the GM so decides."). I think it is good enough. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net> 
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:21:52 +0000 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 38 
 
Uh, how's this, guys? 
 
We agree that TK is enormously more efficient, in almost all cases,  
than Stretching. We disagree, however, as to whether or not it can go  
around a barrier. 
 
So, since TK cannot reach a man through a glass wall, how about  
reinstating a bit of balance? Let Stretching have the "can go around  
barriers, if route does not pass through holes smaller than  
stretching limb." This gives Stretching a bit more "oomph" than TK,  
increasing its efficiency. 
 
True, it won't solve the problem, but it still helps. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net> 
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:21:52 +0000 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 41 
 
> That said, I think that the Indirect advantage is too 'limited' in 
> its definitions - you should be able to buy powers that can attack 
> from any angle but do not necessarily ignore intervening barriers. 
 
Agreed. Indirect should cover, "My aerodynamic shurikens can go  
around corners" and "The wall doesn't stop my grenade, because I can  
throw it over the wall" at a rock bottom minimum, both of which are  
forbidden by the rules, and which Indirect doesn't quite cover. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net> 
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:21:52 +0000 
Subject: Re: Package Deals (Was: Characteristic Maxima) 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 37 
 
> I realy don't buy the Hunted argument for most groups, because I 
> find it hard to believe that 'X' is is actually hunting each member 
> of the group.  'X' may not like that group as a whole, and may go 
> out of his way to cause them problems, but I can't see him taking 
> time to hunt each member. 
 
I would allow a group hunted, but only if they are hunted by a group.  
Ex.: All VIPER agents are hunted by UNTIL. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net> 
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:21:53 +0000 
Subject: Re: Needing a name... 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 39 
 
> Hi everyone, know it has been a long time since I've e-mailed the 
> list.  I've been out of it for a while.  Big back log of e-mail.  
> Anyway, I'm needing help with a name for a character and I thought 
> who can I turn to?  Then I thought of the long forgotten list which 
> I just let build up.  Anyway, can anyone help me with a name for a 
> female archer superhero?  Please help, I'm drawing a blank here. 
> Thanks and talk at you later. 
 
Little Red Robin Hood? 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 22:45:01 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 33 
 
At 11:54 AM 7/6/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Nope: 
>	A character with this Standard Power can stretch parts of his body, 
>	attack at range, and reach for things at long distance. 
> 
>Growth allows you to occupy more than one hex; Stretching allows you to 
>extend your hand to hand range beyond a single hex. 
 
Hey, Rat?  How can I stretch my arm into another hex without taking up any 
space in that hex?  That's all I meant by "occupy" -- you are split up in 
some fashion between multiple hexes.  The "home" hex has the lion's share, 
obviously, but it can't have all of it or else there'd be nothing left to 
stretch. 
 
And I swear I'll put a hit out on you if you try to chalk this one off to 
"confusing effect with SFX" :/, since it's right there in that sentence: 
"stretch parts of his body".  Not "affect things at range" or "exert his own 
STR at range" or anything like that.  You're making something of your 
character longer than it was before.  That's YOUR arm in all those hexes 
between you and where you're stretching to, a physical thing attached to you 
(or, at the very least, a physical extension of your arm, like a weapon). 
 
>Now, for Indirect: 
> 
>	A Power with this Advantage ignores intervening barriers between 
>	the attacker and the target.  These intervening barriers include 
>	walls, fences, and even Force Walls, but not personal defenses like 
>	Force Field or Armor. 
> 
>Based on those statements I think that in order to go over the Great Wall 
>to hit BadGuyduJour, regardless of the power used in the attack, you need 
>to have Indirect on that power.  Fair is fair, after all: if TK requires it 
>then Stretching should also require it. 
 
I've said this before: you're NOT ignoring it.  Ignoring it would be 
stretching THROUGH it, calculating your inches of stretching directly from 
the distance between you and your target horizontally.  Since there's 
nothing in the rules that says Stretching has to be straight-line only or 
horizontal plane only, it would seem to me that you can stretch over or 
around things. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 22:45:04 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: Transform Guidelines (1st Draft) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 34 
 
I'm not going to either approve or dismiss these guidelines.  If you're a GM 
and like 'em, go ahead and use them.  I'd just like to point out one small 
detail: 
 
At 01:31 PM 7/6/97 -0400, ErolB1@aol.com wrote: 
>3. When using a Major Transform (15 pts/die) on a character:  
> 
>Normally this is used to Transform the target character into something 
>helpless and harmless. As long as this is the case - as long as the 
>Transformed target character is of no more use or value than a captive or a 
>dead body - then the Transform may freely add, subtract and rearrange 
>character points.  
 
If you instate these guidelines, prepare to hear "101 Uses For a Dead Body" 
from your players. :/ 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann) 
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 03:05:30 -0800 
Organization: Terminal BBS  (403)327-9731 
Subject: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 35 
 
 -=> Quoting Stainless Steel Rat to Mike Lehmann <=- 
 
 SSR> Based on those statements I think that in order to go over the Great 
 SSR> Wall to hit BadGuyduJour, regardless of the power used in the attack, 
 SSR> you need to have Indirect on that power.  Fair is fair, after all: if 
 SSR> TK requires it then Stretching should also require it. 
 
I think the point Vox was trying to make was that Indirect would be fine  
to circumvent completely enclosed areas (domed Force Wall, etc.), using  
a "warping-limbs" approach. Yes, absolutely, you need to materialize your attack inside the Force Wall to attack them.  
 
But if it's a non-enclosed area (such as a horizontal Force Wall or  
building corner) that you could logically go around it, just like you  
could with any movement power, by using the stretching inches to go over  
or around obstacles. If you don't have enough inches, then you can't do  
it. 
 
Yes, I know: It's not a movement power, it's a standard power... No need  
to pull out the book, I rarely treat it as gospel anyways. 
 
Question: Considering how little you apparently want to give a person  
with stretching, would you allow them to "bounce" their stretching to go  
around cover or get a surprise attack? 
 
IOW, could you "bounce" a ranged melee attack like you might bounce an EB? 
 
mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net - - - - - Justice Krewe / Enigma Watch GM 
- - - - - -  http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html - - - - - - 
 
... You cannot tell how deep a puddle is until you step in it. 
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR] 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Internet: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net  <<<<<<<<<<< 
The TERMINAL BBS                                            Fidonet; 1:358/17 
Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada                                          1:358/18 
This message was processed by NetXpres                          (403)327-9741 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified) 
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 08:01:47 -0500 
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us> 
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 46 
 
At 10:36 AM 7/6/97 -0500, John P Weatherman wrote: 
>Earl Kwallek 
> 
>>>IMO, some people on this list tend to interpret the "no specific beings" 
>>>rule to disallow _way_ more than it should. The first sentence of that 
>>>paragraph adequately spells out just what sort of things it's supposed to 
>>>rule out. 
> 
>"A character with this Standard Power can summon a creature from the  
>abyss, 
>another dimension, or somewhere on earth." 
> 
>This doesn't seem to mesh with any kind of an "undo transform effect".   
>After all the subject of a transform is right there, not somewhere else.   
>So how are you "summoning" it from another location? 
 
  I really don't know... 
 
  Seeing as how I agree with you, and am NOT the person whom you quoted 
above... 
 
When including quotes as part of a post, try to make certain you know who 
you are quoting... 
 
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified) 
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 08:05:59 -0500 
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us> 
Subject: Shado/Green Arrow (was Re: Needing a name...) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 43 
 
At 10:37 AM 7/6/97 -0400, Legionair@aol.com wrote: 
>In a message dated 97-07-06 03:59:17 EDT, thunder@bconnex.net (The 
>THUNDERBIRD) writes: 
> 
><< The Assassin from Mike Grell's Longbow Hunters series, was known as 
> SHADO - she was also the mother of the present incarnation of the Green 
> Arrow, just for your info, don't ya know :-) >> 
> 
>Just for the record, I don't think that Shado was the current GA's mother. 
> The age differences just don't match up.  The last time the kid was seen 
>(about two years ago) he was a toddler. 
> 
 
  The current G.A. is NOT Shado's kid... 
 
  He is Olly Queen's kid by some hippy type he knew back 
in the 70's (early 80's?) 
  Age differences are too great... ALthough I think the writer's were 
originally going to go with Shado's kid, until this was pointed out to them... 
Not sure... 
 
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 08:18:47 -0500 
From: Alex Rojas <rojasa@uthscsa.edu> 
Subject: Shockwave (long) 
X-Sender: rojasa@arwen.uthscsa.edu 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 42 
 
After a long time of not playing a brick character, I recently created one. 
 I tried a maneuver called a Shockwave with the new GM, but he had never 
heard of it.  So after digging through all of my books, I finally found it. 
 
My question is, if you know about this rule, do you allow it?  Or, after 
reading it, would you allow it? 
 
I think,  eons ago when we did use it, we subtracted 1, 2, or 3 dice 
instead of the suggested 2, 3, or 4.  Comments? 
 
 
Alex Rojas 
RojasA@uthscsa.edu 
 
*********** 
 
The following are rules I have copied from Page 54 of the Champions III 
rule book.  The only changes I have made are spelling mistakes I found when 
copying, and any mistakes I didn't catch when I was typing. 
 
 
Shockwaves 
	A very strong character can use his incredible Strength to create 
Shockwaves in the ground.  These Shockwaves can knock over other characters 
in a wide area. 
	A character makes a Shockwave by getting to one knee and hitting the 
ground.  The character is -1 DCV while kneeling.  Because the character is 
braced against the floor he's not affected by the Shockwave.  The character 
rolls the damage for his STR and counts the BODY.  Martial Arts damage 
modifiers do not count towards this damage, but the Haymaker damage 
modifier does.  If the character is on a floor, the attack may pierce the 
floor (see Champions for wall and floor DEF and BODY).  If the character 
knocks himself all the way through the floor, he doesn't cause a Shockwave 
and ends up one floor down.  Given the usual toughness of floors, you're 
better off performing this maneuver on the ground. 
	Assuming the floor does support the Shockwave, the character totals the 
BODY done by the attack.  The character then rolls 3D6 and subtracts the 
result from the BODY of the attack.  The remainder is the power of the 
Shockwave. 
	The conditions for creating a Shockwave will modify how large a wave is 
created.  You can't create a Shockwave if the ground is soft and mushy.  If 
the ground is hard but not well packed or connected (dirt areas are an 
example), the character rolls 4D6 when subtracting from the damage to find 
the power of the Shockwave.  If the ground is hard and well connected 
(concrete is an example), the normal 3D6 roll is subtracted.  If the ground 
is hard and flexible (like steel plates), 2D6 is subtracted from the BODY 
to find the Shockwave. 
	The Shockwave the character creates has a chance to knock everyone in a 
radius off their feet.  The power of the Shockwave loses 1 BODY per hex 
distant from the attack.  Each target within a radius equal to the power of 
the Shockwave can be knocked off their feet.  The targets must make a DEX 
Roll, -1 per 1 point of power in the Shockwave.  Characters with knockback 
Resistance (whether from Growth, Density Increase, or other source) get to 
subtract their Knockback Resistance from the power of the Shockwave. 
	A character may do a version of Shockwaves in a straght line if certain 
conditions apply  If a specific surface like a railroad tracks or a steel 
bridge is handy, the character may cause a Shockwave only on the surface. 
The caracter may multiply his STR by 1.5 if he waits until the end of the 
next segment as in a haymaker.  The Shockwave is then propagated only down 
the surface.  This is called "Cracking the Whip". 
	All building in the radius of a Shockwave take 1 BODY per point of 
Shockwave that hits them.  The Buildings do get their normal DEF and BODY 
against the attack.  Apply the greatest power of the Shockwave that reaches 
the building against its DEF and apply any remaining damage. 
 
Comment: 
	This maneuver can be very destructive to the area of a battle.  It is 
often only good at the beginning of a fight when a high STR character is 
alone.  Once the character's teammates have arived the Shockwave can do 
more harm than good.  It is a spectacular maneuver for a brick to use when 
fighting alone. 
 
************ 
 
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified) 
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 08:29:56 -0500 
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us> 
Subject: RE: Powers that step on other powers' toes (was Re: More Than  
    
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 45 
 
At 02:48 PM 7/6/97 +0000, Guy Hoyle wrote: 
>> >Resurrection can NOT be done with Summon.  
>>  
>> It was explicitly done like that in Mythic Greece, I think. Anyone got 
>> the book to confirm it? 
> 
>Yes, I do, and it does, although MG was for 1st edition Fantasy Hero,  
>which allowed you to summon specific beings (such as yourself, in  
>this case).  Neither Summoning nor Transforms will work on the caster  
>in 4th edition Hero System rules, so we're still left without an  
>"official" way to resurrect anybody in game terms.  However, I have  
>no problem granting limited exemptions in these cases, maybe even  
>charging them a small Advantage for the privelege. 
 
  Untrue Guy, use the "spirit" rules from Hero Almanac 1. They may be 
"Optional" but they are "Official", in that they were published by HERO for 
use with HSR. 
 
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified) 
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 08:35:21 -0500 
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us> 
Subject: Re: Needing a name... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 44 
 
At 03:53 PM 7/6/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote: 
>> Hi everyone, know it has been a long time since I've e-mailed the list.   
>> I've been out of it for a while.  Big back log of e-mail.  Anyway, I'm  
>> needing help with a name for a character and I thought who can I turn to?   
>> Then I thought of the long forgotten list which I just let build up.   
>> Anyway, can anyone help me with a name for a female archer superhero?   
>> Please help, I'm drawing a blank here. Thanks and talk at you later. 
>>  
>> Sparx 
>>  
 
Alright, I'll throw the one's I remember from my campaigns (run & played): 
 
	Blackhawk (Native American Archer w/Shamanic Powers) 
	Robyn Locksley 
	Golden Archer	(Lots of McDonald's Jokes here) 
	Diana 
	Artemis 
	Saggitarius 
	Crossbow		(Ok, not technically an "Archer", but good enough) 
	Bow 
	Kyudo			(Japanese Zen Archery) 
	 
	and many others whose names escape me, it is/was a popular concept... 
 
	 
 
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 10:14:01 -0400 
From: The THUNDERBIRD <thunder@bconnex.net> 
Organization: The Kingdom of Thunder 
Subject: Re: Shado/Green Arrow (was Re: Needing a name...) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 52 
 
Earl Kwallek wrote: 
>  
> At 10:37 AM 7/6/97 -0400, Legionair@aol.com wrote: 
> >In a message dated 97-07-06 03:59:17 EDT, thunder@bconnex.net (The 
> >THUNDERBIRD) writes: 
> > 
> ><< The Assassin from Mike Grell's Longbow Hunters series, was known as 
> > SHADO - she was also the mother of the present incarnation of the Green 
> > Arrow, just for your info, don't ya know :-) >> 
> > 
> >Just for the record, I don't think that Shado was the current GA's mother. 
> > The age differences just don't match up.  The last time the kid was seen 
> >(about two years ago) he was a toddler. 
> > 
>  
>   The current G.A. is NOT Shado's kid... 
 
OOPS!!!!!!! 
 
What more can I say!!! 
 
The Thunderbird 
 
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 09:28:11 -0500 
From: Jerry & Jamie Nealis <jnealis@OnRamp.NET> 
Reply-To: jnealis@OnRamp.NET 
Subject: Shockwave 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 50 
 
Thanx Alex 
 
I've been looking for this for a long time. We've been using a EB with 
Explosion only versus Targets on the ground No Range and all kinds of 
other stuff. 
 
Not that many of my group run bricks. But we do allow it. 
 
Come to think of it....... anybody know where I might be able to find a 
copy of Champs3? Mail Order even? 
 
Jerry aka 
 
Puzzleboy-- Foxbat's Best Friend 
 
From: TRandom@aol.com 
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:34:32 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: gimme that 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 49 
 
One of my players recently tried to argue that his character should be able 
to use her martial escape to help defend against a martial disarm. His 
position is that the same  quick maneuvers and leverage his character used to 
get out of a grab would be used to keep her opponent from doing the same to 
her weapon. Even if the disarm didn't involve actually grabbing the weapon, 
he still felt the maneuver would apply. I didn't agree. Comments?  
 
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 09:49:34 -0500 
From: Jerry & Jamie Nealis <jnealis@OnRamp.NET> 
Reply-To: jnealis@OnRamp.NET 
Subject: Silly Powers 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 53 
 
After a long Saturday night Game we got kinda goofy and were tossing 
around different silly power concepts........ thought I'd share 'em. 
 
Invisibility: Invisible Power Effect..... "Don't look at me, I'm not 
here." 
 
Shrinking: Invisible Power Effect..... S/He only LOOKS 6' tall 
 
Marts: Visible Power Effect...... "POW!" "BIFF!" "KA-WHAM!" 
 
Swimming: Doesn't Work in Water....... "Or Flight: Requires Gestures" 
 
Hearing Flash Def: Gestures and Incantation...... Fingers in Ears "I'm 
not listening! LALALALALALALA!" 
 
RKA: Gestures and Incantation...... "I am crushing your head! Crush 
crush!" 
 
Childish Missle Deflection...... Roll the dice "OK you've been hit and-" 
"Have NOT!" 
 
....and suddenly I can't remember the others....oh well. 
 
Hope you enjoy....  
 
Jerry aka 
 
Puzzleboy-- Foxbat's Best Friend 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 10:35:38 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: gimme that 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 56 
 
At 10:34 AM 7/7/97 -0400, TRandom@aol.com wrote: 
> One of my players recently tried to argue that his character should be 
> able to use her martial escape to help defend against a martial disarm. 
> His position is that the same  quick maneuvers and leverage his character 
> used to get out of a grab would be used to keep her opponent from doing 
> the same to her weapon. Even if the disarm didn't involve actually 
> grabbing the weapon, he still felt the maneuver would apply. I didn't 
> agree. Comments?  
 
        ESCAPE 
        This maneuver helps the character escape from a character who has 
        Grabbed him.  The character adds the STR from this maneuver to his 
        own STR only when rolling BODY to break out from a Grab. 
 
You can't even use an Escape against a weapon Grab, let alone a Disarm -- 
like the description says, it helps you only against a character who has 
Grabbed you.   
 
I'm not a martial artist -- at best, a hack wrestler -- so I can't comment 
on the whole escape hold vs. thwart disarm bit in reality.  But the game 
mechanics clearly don't back him up, and this is not a case where his 
argument is obviously true (i.e. I am not forced to admit he is correct in 
his assertion about the maneuvers being the same).  So the game mechanics win. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: RE: Silly Powers 
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:40:05 -0400 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 57 
 
>Invisibility: Invisible Power Effect..... "Don't look at me, I'm not 
> >here." 
>  
> Actually, I've considered this one quite a bit... 
>  
> Here's what invisibility gives the character: 
>  
> Situation	HTH OCV	Range OCV 
> PER Roll			 
> No PER Roll			0 
> Visible Attack	-1		-1 
>  
> Rather than reducing the OCV of those who fail a perception roll, it 
> could be looked at as adding 
> to the DCV of the disappearing character. Now, anyone who fails a 
> perception roll will have a very 
> hard time hitting, thus damaging the character. 
>  
> So invisibility could also be looked at as an armoring-type power with 
> a weakness. 
>  
> For a mere forty points, all attacks against the character fail (kind 
> of like desolid), unless the 
> attacker has good senses (to detect the invulnerability field's 
> weakness) or good accuracy (a 
> lucky shot). 
>  
> And, of course, now that we know invisibility can represent something 
> else, it doesn't really need 
> Invisible Power Effects. Turning on the invulnerability field could be 
> an obvious thing. 
>  
> >Shrinking: Invisible Power Effect..... S/He only LOOKS 6' tall 
>  
> Check out http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905/haym15f.html 
>  
> >Flight: Requires Gestures 
>  
> I often use this one to represent winged flight. If the wings aren't 
> flappin', the flyboy starts fallin'. 
>  
> >Hearing Flash Def: Gestures and Incantation...... Fingers in Ears 
> "I'm 
> >not listening! LALALALALALALA!" 
>  
> That one's hilarious! "I'm not listening! Nobody around here is 
> hearing you! If you're talking to someone, you're wasting your breath! 
> Your lips are moving but nothing's happening!" 
>  
>  
> Dave Mattingly 
>  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 07 Jul 1997 12:19:23 -0400 
Lines: 27 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 60 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "ML" == Mike Lehmann <mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net> writes: 
 
ML> I think the point Vox was trying to make was that Indirect would be 
ML> fine to circumvent completely enclosed areas (domed Force Wall, etc.), 
 
Yes, I know the point he was trying to make.  Mine is that the description 
of Indirect says that he is incorrect.  Indirect specifically mentions such 
things as fences and walls, which means that in order to bypass the Great 
Wall of China he needs Indirect, regardless of the Power being used. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBM8EXCJ6VRH7BJMxHAQFZ7gP/dzcCd6CJBz/ER+QRyY0A1TnDARToBF6B 
sEgjGZacV8LTSEOe29XJkvyIuWgMTygXKhZIqnwvCuXJjS3v3ArvcECFCARp3UO2 
I9EnszyQTJ0Mcg4MFqJKxpdfKjlQqToUHiJ5OJPtFkl/oylgcO8dOkxz+i4MX90B 
uyNyPPbpSIY= 
=zimG 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should 
                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 07 Jul 1997 12:20:54 -0400 
Lines: 29 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 58 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "JPW" == John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> writes: 
 
JPW> The stretching character isn't "ignoring" the barrier however, he's  
JPW> circumventing it. 
 
Uh-huh. 
 
Like there is any difference. 
 
Bypass, go around, ignore, circumvent, these all mean the same thing within 
the context of the example. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBM8EXYp6VRH7BJMxHAQGDtgQAsGW+qoZDvlXkBRwm710TZG1mrvqgLroX 
v39+ToXhgsZjN1lziRgUYIPzm9njukxxWde/HJYBS8BtVxNgN2gSZnFqNGWs8bSa 
tQXNBWKnKNJ7osSNDphb1BN/fxAEoYhqqGzTR6AYoIBb4c1JIvdEFLN9YaqMmeLI 
X4RDHYsafh0= 
=vm3e 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 07 Jul 1997 12:26:45 -0400 
Lines: 36 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 59 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BB" == Bryan Berggren <ludator@softfarm.com> writes: 
 
BB> Hey, Rat?  How can I stretch my arm into another hex without taking up 
BB> any space in that hex? 
 
There is a finite number of characters that may occupy a hex.  Your 
stretched arm does not affect that number.  Therefore at the scale of the 
game your stretched arm has negligible volume in relationship to a hex. 
 
[...] 
 
BB> I've said this before: you're NOT ignoring it. 
 
Look at the description of Indirect: it specifically states *what* kinds of 
barriers may be ignored but nowhere does it state *how* this is 
accomplished.  Indirect is used to ignore a fence, but the special effects 
of the Power with the advantage says how this is accomplished.  It could be 
that you "phase" through the wall... or simply lob a grenade over it. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBM8EYwZ6VRH7BJMxHAQHoQAP/fm7QMJDfyqPRG5amrYNYH0/KSQ07Ifur 
N19OxIyS2fE1gL++zYdQiRlVT8dBw4qwzN4DL1JLEzMclTzjx8t/jMbE4WnMZSXx 
wbcSYiTONI3I6ekj/ep8ZRfN2OKOMm8dh1YYxO8NnNgJrUdBfatCu4zZv0rqnnAP 
ZpjO04egb+g= 
=jQWw 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Silly Powers 
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:36:24 -0400 (EDT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 61 
 
> After a long Saturday night Game we got kinda goofy and were tossing 
> around different silly power concepts........ thought I'd share 'em. 
>  
<SNIP!> 
>  
> Hope you enjoy....  
>  
> Jerry aka 
>  
> Puzzleboy-- Foxbat's Best Friend 
>  
 
Funny, how 'bout this one: 50" Flight 16x NCM 0 END, with the limitations 
Concentration - 0 DCV for the Full Duration, and Must Be Used At Full 
Power. In other words, someone who can only fly with his eyes shut tight. 
He could call himself "Badly Bruised Man". 
 
-Eric   
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 07 Jul 97 16:54:04 GMT 
X-To: herolist@october.com (herolist)  h >  h > One of my players recently tried to argue that his character should be  h > able  h > to use her martial escape to help defend against a martial disarm. His  h > position is that the same  quick maneuvers and leverage his character  h > used to  h > get out of a grab would be used to keep her opponent from doing the  h > same to  h > her weapon. Even if the disarm didn't involve actually grabbing the  h > weapon,  h > he still felt the maneuver would apply. I didn' 
Subject: gimme that 
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
Path: october!opal 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 8 
 
 
 
To: herolist@october.com (herolist)  
 h >  
 h > One of my players recently tried to argue that his character should be  
 h > able  
 h > to use her martial escape to help defend against a martial disarm. His  
 h > position is that the same  quick maneuvers and leverage his character  
 h > used to  
 h > get out of a grab would be used to keep her opponent from doing the  
 h > same to  
 h > her weapon. Even if the disarm didn't involve actually grabbing the  
 h > weapon,  
 h > he still felt the maneuver would apply. I didn't agree. Comments?  
  
You're right.  The exerts that can be used against a Disarm are  
Bind, Disarm, and Takeaway....  
  
However, you might want to give him DC's just on general principle...  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:29:25 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net 
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:19 PM 7/7/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "ML" == Mike Lehmann <mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net> writes: 
> 
>ML> I think the point Vox was trying to make was that Indirect would be 
>ML> fine to circumvent completely enclosed areas (domed Force Wall, etc.), 
> 
>Yes, I know the point he was trying to make.  Mine is that the description 
>of Indirect says that he is incorrect.  Indirect specifically mentions such 
>things as fences and walls, which means that in order to bypass the Great 
>Wall of China he needs Indirect, regardless of the Power being used. 
 
So you would have to get Indirect on your running to walk around a wall?  
	What sick person put an "S" in lisp? 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 12:31:12 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:20 PM 7/7/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Uh-huh. 
> 
>Like there is any difference. 
> 
>Bypass, go around, ignore, circumvent, these all mean the same thing within 
>the context of the example. 
 
Don't be thick, Rat.  There IS a difference.  Assume a 3" by 3" wall -- the 
target and attacker are on opposite sides of the wall, in the center hexes. 
If Stretcho was IGNORING the barrier, he'd use 2" inch of stretching getting 
to the target.  As it is, he must use 6" (roughly -- I don't have a map in 
front of me to count this out) to nail his hated foe.  As I extend the wall 
longer and longer, it takes more and more inches of stretching to bypass it 
-- but it will NEVER require more than 2" of Indirect Stretching (assuming 
you allow such a Power, which I wouldn't, because it's tantamount to Desolid 
only you get "Affects Physical World" free) to IGNORE the barrier. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 12:31:14 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:26 PM 7/7/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>There is a finite number of characters that may occupy a hex.  Your 
>stretched arm does not affect that number.  Therefore at the scale of the 
>game your stretched arm has negligible volume in relationship to a hex. 
 
So forgive me a poor choice of words, since I did not mean "occupy" in the 
sense of "prevent other characters from being in that hex".  I merely meant 
that a portion of your character IS in that hex -- for example, if someone 
stretches past my hex, I should be able to attack that limb HTH with the 
usual hit penalties for a called shot, and stretching through Area Effect 
zones is opening yourself to attack. 
 
>BB> I've said this before: you're NOT ignoring it. 
> 
>Look at the description of Indirect: it specifically states *what* kinds of 
>barriers may be ignored but nowhere does it state *how* this is 
>accomplished.  Indirect is used to ignore a fence, but the special effects 
>of the Power with the advantage says how this is accomplished.  It could be 
>that you "phase" through the wall... or simply lob a grenade over it. 
 
I'm not arguing how it is accomplished, I'm challenging whether it is BEING 
accomplished.  Remember, you're not buying Indirect on your STR, allowing 
you to ignore barriers with your HTH attacks.  You're claiming to buy it on 
the Stretching, which means the Stretching Power ignores the barrier. 
Therefore, stretching "through" a barrier via Indirect would use only as 
many inches as the barrier is occupying, which clearly is NOT what our "wrap 
around" paradigm is accomplishing. 
 
About the only example of truly Indirect Stretching I can think of might be 
Doc Ock's tentacles, which he can use to make attacks even when not attached 
to his body (as seen against the Answer in LETHAL FOES OF SPIDER-MAN #4 -- 
can't recommend the series, it bites like a dog, but it's the only example 
of this I actually own). 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 12:31:17 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:19 PM 7/7/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Yes, I know the point he was trying to make.  Mine is that the description 
>of Indirect says that he is incorrect.  Indirect specifically mentions such 
>things as fences and walls, which means that in order to bypass the Great 
>Wall of China he needs Indirect, regardless of the Power being used. 
 
Okay, so I need to buy my Running Indirect if I'm going to make a 
Move-Through on a target behind a fence.  Gotcha. :/ 
 
Stretching does not bypass the wall.  It does not ignore the wall.  It 
merely allows you to wrap around the wall, if you have enough of it. 
Indirect and Stretching are two distinctly different ways to get to a target 
standing behind a wall -- the stretching requires you have enough inches to 
"move" your fist around the wall, the Indirect merely requires the new 
origin point of your Strike maneuver is adjacent to your target. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
From: Clint Fishback <Fishback@mail.dec.com> 
Subject: Champions vehicles 
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:08:24 -0400 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 13 
 
I remember in Champions II they had a bunch of disadvantages for vehicles i.e. extra time to get in and out, requires skill of x to drive. If anybody has this list, please send it to me. Thanx. 
 
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> 
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:19:24 +0000 
Subject: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Reply-to: guyhoyle@iname.com 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I'm thinking about starting up a Golden Age campaign with a twist: I  
want almost everybody in it to be more of a costumed normal type of  
character (such as Captain America or Batman) and not a superhuman  
character.  While I don't want to rule out superhumans completely,  
I'd like to make highly-skilled agents a threat to most characters. 
 
Normal Characteristic Maxima seems to be the way to go, but I don't  
want to make everybody take it.  My thought is to let everyone who  
takes this Disadvantage not count it against the Disad total; i.e.,  
they would get 20 more points than the players who want to play  
supers. 
 
Does this approach have any problems that I don't see? Can anybody  
think of a better approach to this problem? 
 
Guy 
---------------------------------- 
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com) 
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/ 
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf 
and the PANGAEA Project! 
 
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 15:37:33 -0400 
From: "Robert J. Street" <rjstreet@vnet.ibm.com> 
Organization: IBM at Charlotte, North Carolina 
Subject: Empathy Feed 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Question:  how would one create a character with an characteristic 
boost linked to an empathic detection?  The first part is easy, but 
I'm not sure telepathy is adequate for the empathy portion. 
--  
					ShadowWalk 
				Come walk in the shadows with me 
 
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 08:54:14 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: HAPPYELF!!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: gimme that 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
i'd say give them a bonus for having a martial disarm themselves, but not for any other manuver- 
 
you could use his logic for any martial manuver, really. ..  
 
 
At 10:34 AM 7/7/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>One of my players recently tried to argue that his character should be able 
>to use her martial escape to help defend against a martial disarm. His 
>position is that the same  quick maneuvers and leverage his character used to 
>get out of a grab would be used to keep her opponent from doing the same to 
>her weapon. Even if the disarm didn't involve actually grabbing the weapon, 
>he still felt the maneuver would apply. I didn't agree. Comments?  
> 
 
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 16:13:17 -0700 
From: Mike Sprague <sprague@VivaNET.com> 
Reply-To: sprague@VivaNET.com 
Subject: Re: Empathy Feed 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Robert J. Street wrote: 
> Question:  how would one create a character with an characteristic 
> boost linked to an empathic detection?  The first part is easy, but 
> I'm not sure telepathy is adequate for the empathy portion. 
 
Why not?  Just add a Limitation that says "Only detects emotions, not 
thoughts."  I would be likely to give it a -1/2 Limitation, but it 
really depends on how you expect it to work, and the GM's perception of 
how it would work. 
 
			~ Mike 
 
From: DocWeird@aol.com 
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:33:04 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: gimme that 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 97-07-07 10:43:57 EDT, TRandom@aol.com writes: 
 
<<  should be able 
 to use her martial escape to help defend against a martial disarm. His 
 position is that the same  quick maneuvers and leverage his character used 
to 
 get out of a grab would be used to keep her opponent from doing the same to 
 her weapon. Even if the disarm didn't involve actually grabbing the weapon, 
 he still felt the maneuver would apply. I didn't agree. Comments?  >> 
 
 
 
 
 
       Of Course he cannot, if he wants to do that he needs to buy levels or 
put any skill levels into defense with the 'special effect' that his skills 
allow him to defend from the disarm better.  
 
          Then there is the possibility (if you allow it) to let him use 
something in his immediate surroundings to help him attack/defend using the 
suprise move bonuses (watch ANY Jackie Chan movie for examples) 
 
          Or, just buy the weapon as a Inacessable focus (Thor's hammer<he 
could will it to him> and Freddy's gloves are two examples) 
 
 
         Anyway, there's my idea on the thought and a couple of possible 
'fixes' 
           
          Hope that it helps---------------------------DocWeird 
 
 
From: BeerCarboy@aol.com 
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:19:28 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Swimming Speedster 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
All this talk about stretching as a movement power (which I like because my 
favorite superhero was one of the few I have ever seen based on stretching) 
brings up something that I see as fairly broken in fourth edition Hero.  By 
getting rid of Flying, only on surfaces (with the argument than moving on 
surfaces should be Running and moving on water should be Swimming), and by 
making only on the surface a limitation for Swimming, and of course because 
Swimming costs only half as much a Running to begin with they have created 
the bizarre circumstance of Fastdude (who has bought his speed powers through 
an Elemental Control) suddenly accelerating tremendously when he hits the 
water.  Anybody have a suggestion on how to deal with this? 
 
Carter Humphrey 
                                                           BeerCarboy@AOL.com 
 
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 10:54:31 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: HAPPYELF!!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:19 PM 7/7/97 +0000, you wrote: 
>I'm thinking about starting up a Golden Age campaign with a twist: I  
>want almost everybody in it to be more of a costumed normal type of  
>character (such as Captain America or Batman) and not a superhuman  
>character.  While I don't want to rule out superhumans completely,  
>I'd like to make highly-skilled agents a threat to most characters. 
> 
>Normal Characteristic Maxima seems to be the way to go, but I don't  
>want to make everybody take it.  My thought is to let everyone who  
>takes this Disadvantage not count it against the Disad total; i.e.,  
>they would get 20 more points than the players who want to play  
>supers. 
> 
>Does this approach have any problems that I don't see? Can anybody  
>think of a better approach to this problem? 
> 
>Guy 
>---------------------------------- 
>Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com) 
>http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/ 
>Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf 
>and the PANGAEA Project! 
> 
 
 
how about just being firm about character conception? and btw, a cool scenario or  
campaign twist would be the 'rise of the paranormals':  where mutants and supers and stuff start turning up- 'cept their all bad guys. . . . 
 
 
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 10:59:07 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: HAPPYELF!!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Swimming Speedster 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:19 PM 7/7/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>All this talk about stretching as a movement power (which I like because my 
>favorite superhero was one of the few I have ever seen based on stretching) 
>brings up something that I see as fairly broken in fourth edition Hero.  By 
>getting rid of Flying, only on surfaces (with the argument than moving on 
>surfaces should be Running and moving on water should be Swimming), and by 
>making only on the surface a limitation for Swimming, and of course because 
>Swimming costs only half as much a Running to begin with they have created 
>the bizarre circumstance of Fastdude (who has bought his speed powers through 
>an Elemental Control) suddenly accelerating tremendously when he hits the 
>water.  Anybody have a suggestion on how to deal with this? 
> 
>Carter Humphrey 
>                                                           BeerCarboy@AOL.com 
> 
 
 
*shrug* either reduce his swimming, maybe by putting on advantages, 
or state that since water is fluid, yet solid speedster-wise, he can get really great  
traction there. . . 
 
 
 
 
X-Originating-IP: [206.39.35.204] 
From: "David Graham" <dgraham882@hotmail.com> 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 18:13:28 PDT 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
>I'm thinking about starting up a Golden Age campaign with a twist: I  
>want almost everybody in it to be more of a costumed normal type of  
>character (such as Captain America or Batman) and not a superhuman  
>character.  While I don't want to rule out superhumans completely,  
>I'd like to make highly-skilled agents a threat to most characters. 
 
I happen to be a player in such a campaign right now (although the  
campaign is going to also cover the Silver Age and the modern era as  
well, but that's a different story). 
 
>Normal Characteristic Maxima seems to be the way to go, but I don't  
>want to make everybody take it.  My thought is to let everyone who  
>takes this Disadvantage not count it against the Disad total; i.e.,  
>they would get 20 more points than the players who want to play  
>supers. 
> 
>Does this approach have any problems that I don't see? Can anybody  
>think of a better approach to this problem? 
 
That's a thought.  In the campaign I'm in, the GM initially put serious  
restrictions on Powers that were available.  PC's couldn't even buy  
Flight, or more than 10 points worth of Growth, for example. Plus, the  
initial point base was 75, with 75 worth of Disads, which should give  
well-trained gun-toting normals the edge you're looking for, especially  
if you stick to the heroic rules.  Also, look at keeping a tight rein on  
the Active Points of Attack and Defense Powers; this encourages players  
to take Martial Arts, armor, that sort of thing. 
 
Throwing in my $.02, 
David 
 
_______________________________________________________ 
Get Private Web-Based Email Free http://www.hotmail.com 
 
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:20:25 +0000 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Reply-to: guyhoyle@iname.com 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 9 
 
Arrrgh.  Now I don't know whether to make it a pulp-campaign or a  
super-heroes campaign.  When to start it???   Arrrgh! Maybe I need to  
run two campaigns simultaneously... 
 
 
---------------------------------- 
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com) 
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/ 
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf 
and the PANGAEA Project! 
 
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:45:40 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>I'm thinking about starting up a Golden Age campaign with a twist: I  
>want almost everybody in it to be more of a costumed normal type of  
>character (such as Captain America or Batman) and not a superhuman  
>character.  While I don't want to rule out superhumans completely,  
>I'd like to make highly-skilled agents a threat to most characters. 
> 
>Normal Characteristic Maxima seems to be the way to go, but I don't  
>want to make everybody take it.  My thought is to let everyone who  
>takes this Disadvantage not count it against the Disad total; i.e.,  
>they would get 20 more points than the players who want to play  
>supers. 
> 
>Does this approach have any problems that I don't see? Can anybody  
>think of a better approach to this problem? 
 
It's a fair idea; but in my experience people who play NCM characters (who 
interact with supers) tend to buy DEX 20 and SPD 4 ;-). 
 
I'd suggest that NCM be mandatory and you recieve no points for it, with the 
following: 
 
A.) If it falls under your 'super' perview, you can exceed the NCM. So if 
you want to play a Brick, you can get higher than normal STR, CON, BODY, PD, 
ED, REC, END and STUN. If you play a speedster, you can get higher than 
normal DEX, CON, SPD and END. And so on. 
 
B.) You use Heroic level equipment rules - i.e. if it isn't unusual, it's 
free. And in a 'mystery men' type campaign set in the Golden Age, most 
lightweight body armor is unusual. 
 
C.) Require a really good reason to have a SPD above 3. It's SPD more than 
anything that makes agents worthless vs. super types. If all your agents are 
at SPD 2 and the heroes are at SPD 3 (SPD 4 for the martial artists, higher 
for the speedsters), the agents stay threatening - especially if the Brick 
is the only one who can really ignore the agent's power levels. 
 
Other options: 
 
Require a certain expenditure of points for skills (NOT combat levels, 
either). For a 250 pt starter, I'd suggest 40-50 points minimum. That will 
give the characters out-of-combat potential and lower the power level into 
the realm where agents are still a threat. 
 
Or you could just ask the players nicely to play mystery men, not 
superpowered champions of justice :-). Nah, that never works... 
 
Y'know, though, a _group_ of mystery men just doesn't work. No reason for 
them to 'work together', really. Did the Shadow team up with others? Nope. 
The Phantom? Nope. The Spirit? (Beats me, never read this one ;-). 
 
What you could do is have _one_ of the players be the 'mystery man' and have 
everyone else be his 'support staff' - the adventurous girlfriend, the 
daring pilot, the plucky kid, the nosy reporter, the underworld informer, 
the bookish professor, the kung-fu servant, yadda yadda. They always get 
involved in the fight scenes _anyways_, and tag along on the worldwide 
adventures, so what the hey? 
 
All of them would be a match for just one agent type (usually), and a couple 
could take on a handful if need be, but only the 'mystery man' could take on 
more than 4 at a time...but thugs always come by the dozen... 
 
In fact, you could run the 'mystery man' as an NPC who the crew always has 
to 'support' and 'investigate for' and 'rescue' :-). Plenty of pulp action 
potential here... 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:45:47 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Swimming Speedster 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>All this talk about stretching as a movement power (which I like because my 
>favorite superhero was one of the few I have ever seen based on stretching) 
>brings up something that I see as fairly broken in fourth edition Hero.  By 
>getting rid of Flying, only on surfaces (with the argument than moving on 
>surfaces should be Running and moving on water should be Swimming), and by 
>making only on the surface a limitation for Swimming, and of course because 
>Swimming costs only half as much a Running to begin with they have created 
>the bizarre circumstance of Fastdude (who has bought his speed powers through 
>an Elemental Control) suddenly accelerating tremendously when he hits the 
>water.  Anybody have a suggestion on how to deal with this? 
 
Well, the END costs remain the same; 1 END per 5" movement. If Fastdude can 
only run _long_ distances at 20"/phase (SPD 6 would need a REC of 24!) then 
he won't be able to do those distances over water at any faster than 20"/phase. 
 
Still, though, the short hauls remain a problem. I recommend bumping the 
price of Swimming up to 2 CP per 1". Ignore Flight for a moment, but I think 
that Swimming is JUST as useful as Running. Swimming also has no Turn Mode, 
just like Running. Running operates only on land, while Swimming operates 
only in water. While it may seem that land is more common than water 
(therefore Running is more useful, ergo more expensive), that's a completely 
continental viewpoint. Doubtless all those island dwellers around the world 
found Swimming more useful than running (okay, let's not argue this too hard 
- it's a perception thing).  
 
I'll also point out that Swimming allows _vertical_ movement in its medium, 
something running really does not - Running ties the user to a surface. 
 
Of course, we still have Flight at 2 CP per 1", and it would be hard for me 
to argue that Swimming is of equal utility to Flight - though they're really 
the same thing in different mediums (air/water). Many, many Flight SFX 
wouldn't justify the power working in water anyways, so it's fair to say 
that Flight cannot substitute for Swimming (if your SFX would allow for 
this, you should buy a Flight/Swimming multipower). 
 
It's a problem of absolute utility vs. percieved utility, I guess. To the 
average person, Life Support: Safe in Vacuum/High Pressure doesn't mean 
much. Therefore it costs a measly 3 points. But this power would be a 
godsend to divers and/or astronauts - should we charge them more because 
it's more useful? Running and Flight _look_ more useful than Swimming, but 
are they _really_? Doesn't it depend entirely on the campaign style? A 
campaign set on an island chain (Hawaii, Japan) would have Swimming being a 
lot more useful more often! 
 
Sorry, I'm digressing...it's all another reason for a unified movement cost. 
Even Gliding has enough advantages (0 END, Invisible) to it to 
counterbalance its disadvantages (gaining altitude is a pain) AND justify it 
costing equal to Flight, IMHO. 
 
Superleap and Teleport are another matter, but they're point-to-point 
movement modes rather than continious movement <shrug>. 
 
More digression: When I saw the title, I was hoping for some discussion of 
Swimming Speedsters - power ideas, and whatnot. Brought to mind what 
happened in Alpha Flight #1 (the first series, not the new one, which SUCKS 
- I was _very_ disappointed by the first issue of the new series, but 
that'll teach me to buy anything from Marvel Comics, I guess). Anyway, 
Marrina (who can do 400MPH+ underwater..whee!) generated her own waterspout 
to travel overland (she's still slow on land, folks!), neatly providing 
Shaman with enough water to erode Tundra into nothingness. How would you 
model generating your own waterspout for travel? Superleap? 
 
Any other keen Swimming Speedster ideas out there? How about creating (by 
being really, really fast) a 'canyon' in a body of water to suck down ships? 
Of course you could create your own whirlpools. What else? 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:01:48 -0400 
From: seleena@fred.net (E. David Miller) 
Subject: Re: Swimming Speedster 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 2 
 
>All this talk about stretching as a movement power (which I like because my 
>favorite superhero was one of the few I have ever seen based on stretching) 
>brings up something that I see as fairly broken in fourth edition Hero.  By 
>getting rid of Flying, only on surfaces (with the argument than moving on 
>surfaces should be Running and moving on water should be Swimming), and by 
>making only on the surface a limitation for Swimming, and of course because 
>Swimming costs only half as much a Running to begin with they have created 
>the bizarre circumstance of Fastdude (who has bought his speed powers through 
>an Elemental Control) suddenly accelerating tremendously when he hits the 
>water.  Anybody have a suggestion on how to deal with this? 
> 
>Carter Humphrey 
>                                                           BeerCarboy@AOL.com 
 
        Don't buy the swimming up any higher than his fastest Running speed? 
 
Seriously, little things like this were what eventually convinced me to go 
to 3rd edition Elemental Controls, so that having an EC slot with a low 
active point total is not such a killer to the value of the EC. 
 
David Miller 
 
___________________________________________________________________________ 
| seleena@bigdog.-> |There are 3 temporal dimensions, just as there are 3 | 
| ->fred.net        |spatial; T, the passage of time; Tau, the changes in | 
|-------------------|possible outcomes/decisions; Teh, the alternate bases| 
| E. David Miller   |of reality.  Thus, all that ever has been dreamed,   | 
|-------------------|IS, somewhen.  And somewhen, we are all simply a     | 
|Faith, and Dreams. |dream.  Or, by perspective, a nightmare.             | 
|___________________|_____________________________________________________| 
 
 
 
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:01:57 -0400 
From: seleena@fred.net (E. David Miller) 
Subject: Re: Empathy Feed 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 1 
 
>Question:  how would one create a character with an characteristic 
>boost linked to an empathic detection?  The first part is easy, but 
>I'm not sure telepathy is adequate for the empathy portion. 
>-- 
>                                        ShadowWalk 
>                                Come walk in the shadows with me 
 
        I suppose a part of this question would be, what kind of empathic 
detection are you looking for? 
 
        We could try something similar to "the rush" experienced by members 
of Team 7 when they are in proximity to each other, which tends to boost 
their abilities slightly, give them a bit more energy, etc.  Simple detect, 
as a special sense.  Dependant upon the rarity of such an occurrence, a 
limitation on a higher level of the characteristic, via the partially 
limited powers section of the BBB. 
 
 
        Or, we could try something akin to Powerhouse, from DV8, who feeds 
off of emotions of any kind which are strong, and uses those strong 
emotions to get stronger, much stronger.  This one would also be a special 
sense, IMHO, but one with a few more frills, bells, and whistles than the 
simple detect mentioned above.  You might even want to go the route 
suggested by someone else (Mike Sprague?) and try Telepathy with a 
limitation for emotions only.  Again, the powers would be partially limited 
powers.  You might even buy multiple levels of this, with greater levels of 
limitation, to represent higher and higher levels of ambient emotion being 
required. 
 
Two possibilities, out of many. 
 
David Miller 
 
___________________________________________________________________________ 
| seleena@bigdog.-> |There are 3 temporal dimensions, just as there are 3 | 
| ->fred.net        |spatial; T, the passage of time; Tau, the changes in | 
|-------------------|possible outcomes/decisions; Teh, the alternate bases| 
| E. David Miller   |of reality.  Thus, all that ever has been dreamed,   | 
|-------------------|IS, somewhen.  And somewhen, we are all simply a     | 
|Faith, and Dreams. |dream.  Or, by perspective, a nightmare.             | 
|___________________|_____________________________________________________| 
 
 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 22:09:38 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 3 
 
At 09:45 PM 7/7/97 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
>Y'know, though, a _group_ of mystery men just doesn't work. No reason for 
>them to 'work together', really. Did the Shadow team up with others? Nope. 
>The Phantom? Nope. The Spirit? (Beats me, never read this one ;-). 
 
What about the 7 Soldiers of Victory (aka Law's Legionaires)?  They only had 
one "super" member (the Shining Knight); the rest (Star-spangled Kid, 
Stripesy, Crimson Avenger, Wing, Vigilante, Stuff the Chinatown Kid, the 
Sandman, and Sandy the Golden Boy, plus Green Arrow and Speedy pre-Crisis) 
were all basic "mystery men". 
 
> What you could do is have _one_ of the players be the 'mystery man' and 
> have everyone else be his 'support staff' - the adventurous girlfriend, 
> the daring pilot, the plucky kid, the nosy reporter, the underworld 
> informer, the bookish professor, the kung-fu servant, yadda yadda. They 
> always get involved in the fight scenes _anyways_, and tag along on the 
> worldwide >adventures, so what the hey? 
 
This seems less of a Golden Age comicbook "mystery man" campaign and more of 
a Doc Savage style "pulp fiction" campaign.  It's still a cool idea, though 
(and note, too, that half of the aforementioned 7 Soldiers consists of 
sidekicks, including not one but two "kung-fu servants", so maybe there's a 
kernel of it in the comics anyhow). 
 
>In fact, you could run the 'mystery man' as an NPC who the crew always has 
>to 'support' and 'investigate for' and 'rescue' :-). Plenty of pulp action 
>potential here... 
 
Eh ... this reminds me of the official company word on why the Indiana Jones 
RPG by TSR failed. "Basically, everyone wants to play Indy, but who wants to 
play Short Round?" 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified) 
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 22:45:24 -0500 
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us> 
Subject: Request for Super-Speed Tricks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 4 
 
Hey Guys, 
 
  I recently began updating some of the characters from my old (1st & 2nd 
edition) Champions campaigns... 
 
  However I noticed that many of these characters no longer fit my 
conceptions of how the game should be played... specifically not all 
super-speedsters should have a 12 Spd. 
 
  This leads indirectly (+1 advantage level) to a request: 
 
  Please post any "Super-speed" tricks (w/Game mechanics) that you have 
come up with and are willing to share with me... 
 
Thank You. 
 
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 20:51:50 -0700 
From: Mike Sprague <sprague@VivaNET.com> 
Reply-To: sprague@VivaNET.com 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Guy Hoyle wrote: 
>  
> I'm thinking about starting up a Golden Age campaign with a twist: I 
> want almost everybody in it to be more of a costumed normal type of 
> character (such as Captain America or Batman) and not a superhuman 
> character.  While I don't want to rule out superhumans completely, 
> I'd like to make highly-skilled agents a threat to most characters. 
>  
> Normal Characteristic Maxima seems to be the way to go, but I don't 
> want to make everybody take it.  My thought is to let everyone who 
> takes this Disadvantage not count it against the Disad total; i.e., 
> they would get 20 more points than the players who want to play 
> supers. 
 
I did similar in my Lower Powered "Mutants and Normals with Technology" 
campaign.  I did the following: 
 
1) All characters must take Normal Characteristic Maxima as a 0 point 
Disadvantage. 
 
2) Characters whose concept allows them to have above Normal 
Characteristic Maxima have two choices.  Pay double, or buy the 
characteristics as Powers at normal (1x) cost.  It is understood that at 
some near future time there will be devices that can drain/supress 
mutant powers. 
 
3) Characteristics bought as Powers automatically get the "No Figured 
Characteristics" Limitation for -0. 
 
4) SPEED is based on (2 + DEX/10), rather than (1 + DEX/10), and the 
Characteristic maximum for SPEED was changed from 4 to 6.  This made it 
so that normals and especially agents, are more of a threat.  YOu now 
need a 6 SPEED just to go twice as fast as a normal.  An 8 SPEED (which 
nobody has in my game) only has you moving twice as fast as an average 
agent.  (Note: Depending on how you want the flavor to be, you might 
need to modify movement if you do this!  I find that leaving it alone 
works fine for a Super Hero game, but it would need a lot of work before 
being "right" for a Hero Level game." 
 
5) I changed the Normal Characteristic Maxima Table to the following, to 
reflect the flavor I wanted.  Some of the nubmers were a little 
different than this, but I found I could make a 0 Cost Package Deal in 
Hero Maker to cover the change in SPEED and differences in 
Characteristic Maxima, making it easy on me, and players using Hero 
Maker.  Note also that I have bagged the COM stat.  If your pretty or 
ugly enough that people notice, then it's a Distinctive Feature, other 
wise, the player if free do define how their character looks without 
hafing to pay points. 
 
	CHAR	Normal	Age 40+	Age 60+ 
	------------------------------- 
	STR	20	15	10 
	DEX	20	20	20 
	CON	20	15	10 
	BODY	20	15	10 
	INT			 
	EGO	20	25	30 
	PRE			 
	PD	10	8	6 
	ED	10	8	6 
	SPD	6	6	6 
	REC	15	10	6 
	END	60	40	30 
	STUN	60	40	30 
 
Over all, this has worked out very well for me.  VIPER is one of the 
main reocuring villians, and a group of Agents does challange the group. 
 
Enjoy! 
 
			~ Mike 
 
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:54:01 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 5 
 
>> What you could do is have _one_ of the players be the 'mystery man' and 
>> have everyone else be his 'support staff' -  
> 
>This seems less of a Golden Age comicbook "mystery man" campaign and more of 
>a Doc Savage style "pulp fiction" campaign.  It's still a cool idea, though 
 
Yeah, it does seem a little Doc Savage-ey, doesn't it? 
 
>>In fact, you could run the 'mystery man' as an NPC who the crew always has 
>>to 'support' and 'investigate for' and 'rescue' :-). Plenty of pulp action 
>>potential here... 
> 
>Eh ... this reminds me of the official company word on why the Indiana Jones 
>RPG by TSR failed. "Basically, everyone wants to play Indy, but who wants to 
>play Short Round?" 
 
Yeah, but that's TSR. They couldn't put out a solid RPG if their life 
depended on it. :-) And any RPG based on a 'commercial' product like Indiana 
Jones is doomed to failure and obscurity - the target market is too small, 
really (you gotta get the not only the roleplayers, but the roleplayers who 
like pulp adventure, and like Indiana Jones...no surprise it fails, huh?). 
 
Basically, that's a GM call based on how well he knows his players, I guess. 
If they can handle playing 'second fiddle', it could be a hell of a lot of 
fun. Reminds me of...The Wizard! Remember that TV show? Midget inventor and 
his assistant, apprentice, various and sundry others? Loads of fun, that one 
- too bad it lacked the appeal to last (it made what, one season? Two?) Then 
there was Tales From the Brass Monkey... 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 14:07:10 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: HAPPYELF!!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 6 
 
At 10:09 PM 7/7/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>At 09:45 PM 7/7/97 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
>>Y'know, though, a _group_ of mystery men just doesn't work. No reason for 
>>them to 'work together', really. Did the Shadow team up with others? Nope. 
>>The Phantom? Nope. The Spirit? (Beats me, never read this one ;-). 
> 
>What about the 7 Soldiers of Victory (aka Law's Legionaires)?  They only had 
>one "super" member (the Shining Knight); the rest (Star-spangled Kid, 
>Stripesy, Crimson Avenger, Wing, Vigilante, Stuff the Chinatown Kid, the 
>Sandman, and Sandy the Golden Boy, plus Green Arrow and Speedy pre-Crisis) 
>were all basic "mystery men". 
> 
 
also, it depends on the setting: do they all have to be 'cliche' mystery men,  
with fedora's and stuff? i bet a good bunch of players could come up with some pretty wierd takes on the "normal" mystery man-type character. . .   
 
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 14:46:55 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: HAPPYELF!!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 7 
 
>>Eh ... this reminds me of the official company word on why the Indiana Jones 
>>RPG by TSR failed. "Basically, everyone wants to play Indy, but who wants to 
>>play Short Round?" 
> 
>Yeah, but that's TSR. They couldn't put out a solid RPG if their life 
>depended on it. :-) And any RPG based on a 'commercial' product like Indiana 
>Jones is doomed to failure and obscurity - the target market is too small, 
>really (you gotta get the not only the roleplayers, but the roleplayers who 
>like pulp adventure, and like Indiana Jones...no surprise it fails, huh?). 
> 
 
 
really- what about star wars? hell, what about this whole superhero thing?  
it's not the genre's fault, y'know. . . 
 
 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 97 08:58:50 GMT 
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk 
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Steve McGinness) 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 11 
 
At 07:19 PM 7/7/97 +0000, guyhoyle@com.iname wrote: 
>Does this approach have any problems that I don't see? Can anybody  
>think of a better approach to this problem? 
> 
>Guy 
 
 
When we played our Golden Heroes campaign the referee asked us to make  
characters using the Justice Inc rules, 75 points with 100 points  
disadvantages, after we had submitted those characters we were then provided  
75 points for _one_ power. This power might have been the ability to turn  
into flame which would give us flight and a fiery touch but it wouldn't give  
us any defensive capability, it may have been superstrength though we  
couldn't buy armour or any other defensive capability. One character  
actually asked for invulnerability, and the GM gave him a package which  
covered almost every possibility of damage in the game, he was however quite  
easy to overpower and hold down, he had no offensive or movement powers  
beyond normal. 
 
We found this quite challenging because you are used to having a whole suite  
of movement, offensive and defensive abilities usually with added  
miscellaneous powers. This made it far more like the Golden Age where  
despite the fact you are superfast and difficult to hit, if you try to  
charge a heavy machine gun nest you are taking, quite literally your life in  
your hands. 
 
 
 
Stephen McGinness 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net> 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:34:26 +0000 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 31 
 
 
> Also, what is Justice, Inc., a suppliment for Champs? 
 
Heathen! 
 
No, actually it was a Hero System game, back when there were  
different varieties of the system for different genres. It was a  
1920s and 30s pulp fiction game, using the same basic system as  
Champions, but somewhat different rules and unusual abilities. 
 
There were two books, one a rule book, one a book containing  
historical and campaigning information. One of the adventures, The  
Coates Shambler, is probably my favorite adventure to run of all  
time. The characters are called to a haunted house, to find out  
whether or not the ghost has returned, or if it is some sort of plot  
for purposes unknown. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:45:53 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 16 
 
>>>Eh ... this reminds me of the official company word on why the Indiana Jones 
>>>RPG by TSR failed. "Basically, everyone wants to play Indy, but who wants to 
>>>play Short Round?" 
>> 
>>Yeah, but that's TSR. They couldn't put out a solid RPG if their life 
>>depended on it. :-) And any RPG based on a 'commercial' product like Indiana 
>>Jones is doomed to failure and obscurity - the target market is too small, 
>>really (you gotta get the not only the roleplayers, but the roleplayers who 
>>like pulp adventure, and like Indiana Jones...no surprise it fails, huh?). 
 
>really- what about star wars? hell, what about this whole superhero thing?  
>it's not the genre's fault, y'know. . . 
 
Come on - are you really going to compare the appeal of Indiana Jones as an 
RPG to Star Wars or Comic Books? Heck, the Star Wars RPG was enough to suck 
non-roleplaying fans of Star Wars into buying and playing it - but did IJ 
have that sort of appeal? 
 
I wasn't denigrating producing an RPG product based on a commercial product, 
you know - I was denigrating basing it on a commercial product like Indiana 
Jones - which has the big, big drawback (as far as RPG'ing is concerned) of 
a decided lack of 'special powers' for the PCs. Sure, they might be 
_heroes_, but there's nothing to really distinguish them from the ordinary 
joe, is there? 
 
How many 'ordinary folks' RPGs out there have made it? Twilight 2000? 
(mostly military - has 'big gun' appeal). Millenium's End (same deal - 
espionage and military coolness). What did IJ have? Archeological 
expeditions and Nazis (tm)? Was that enough? 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
X-Originating-IP: [206.39.35.202] 
From: "David Graham" <dgraham882@hotmail.com> 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 06:47:35 PDT 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 17 
 
>Arrrgh.  Now I don't know whether to make it a pulp-campaign or a  
>super-heroes campaign.  When to start it???   Arrrgh! Maybe I need to  
>run two campaigns simultaneously... 
 
The campaign I'm in that I referred to in my earlier letter started in  
1931 (pulp) and is progressing through different years, transitioning  
into a super-hero type campaign as it eventually goes to the 1980's.   
You could always try a similar approach.  Just a thought. 
 
David 
 
_______________________________________________________ 
Get Private Web-Based Email Free http://www.hotmail.com 
 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:50:25 -0400 
X-Sender: absga@elbertonga.com 
From: Patrick Barden <absga@elbertonga.com> 
Subject: Urban Myth Group 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 15 
 
Thanks to all of you who helped with ideas for the Urban Myth Group.  I 
thought you might like to know how the finished group turned out.  Here is 
what I came up with. 
 
Candyman:   A supernatural drug dealing creature who uses mirrors to travel 
and stalk his prey.  He takes great pleasure in seducing and terrorizing 
female opponents. 
 
Diabolique:  A fiendishly beautiful villian who uses mass mind control to 
cause mayhem, riots, and mass destruction by controling the minds of teens. 
She uses her shapeshifting ability to get close to the heros and attempt to 
undermine the groups trust. 
 
Denizen: a sewer dwelling creature who can assume the form of a man-gator, 
giant man-rat, or other horrific forms.  He can also control most sewer 
dwelling creatures and other stray animals. 
 
Phobius:  a mysterious creature who travels through shadow and darkness.  He 
uses a mysterious dark force to stalk and terrify his targets.  He feeds off 
of fear and terror.  He is my version of the Boogyman. 
 
House:  a living house.  Can manipulate its interior walls, floors, 
furniture etc.  Has the ability to "disappear"  by shifting itself into 
another dimension.  This is the character I need some help on. 
1)      Just how many levels of growth and or density increase would I need 
to make a character who was as big as a house. 
2)      How would you handle this effect:  Anytime a person inside tries to 
exit through a door or window they are automatically transported back 
through another door or window elsewhere in the house preventing them from 
leaving. 
3)      Has the ability to produce virtually anything it feels the people 
inside it needs (ie. food, clothing, other small items.) it can also make 
these items disappear at will. 
4)      Virtually every room has a mirror in it and it can use these to 
teleport individuals almost anywhere their is a mirror. 
5)      Are their any other effects that you think would be effective.  The 
feeling I am going for is like being caught is some sort of nightmare house 
that is constantly changing and attempting to prevent the people inside from 
leaving.  I am not really concerned with the point totals so have fun. 
 
Suggestions and comments welcome.  Thanks again 
 
Patrick B. 
     
 
 
X-Originating-IP: [206.39.35.202] 
From: "David Graham" <dgraham882@hotmail.com> 
Subject: Re: Request for Super-Speed Tricks 
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 07:19:05 PDT 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 18 
 
>  This leads indirectly (+1 advantage level) to a request: 
> 
>  Please post any "Super-speed" tricks (w/Game mechanics) that you  
>have come up with and are willing to share with me... 
 
No problem.  I have this Uncontrolled (+1 Advantage) urge to share one  
trick I use with my super-speed character, the Whiz Kid.  Basically, the  
kid has HA with Autofire (+1/2 Advantage), which allows him to throw  
five punches in a single Phase.  He's also got 6 levels of DCV, to  
simulate super-dodging ability.   
 
Figuring that there's plenty of guys on this list with even more and  
better tricks, 
David 
 
_______________________________________________________ 
Get Private Web-Based Email Free http://www.hotmail.com 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 09:19:28 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 19 
 
At 09:45 AM 7/8/97 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
>Come on - are you really going to compare the appeal of Indiana Jones as an 
>RPG to Star Wars or Comic Books? Heck, the Star Wars RPG was enough to suck 
>non-roleplaying fans of Star Wars into buying and playing it - but did IJ 
>have that sort of appeal? 
 
Well, West End thought so, since they made it their first Masterbook product 
(unless you count TORG), despite TSR's earlier failure. :/ 
 
> I wasn't denigrating producing an RPG product based on a commercial 
> product, you know - I was denigrating basing it on a commercial product 
> like Indiana Jones - which has the big, big drawback (as far as RPG'ing 
> is concerned) of a decided lack of 'special powers' for the PCs. Sure, 
> they might be _heroes_, but there's nothing to really distinguish them 
> from the ordinary joe, is there? 
 
Well, he's got a cool hat. That's gotta be a one point Perk at least. ;] 
 
>How many 'ordinary folks' RPGs out there have made it? Twilight 2000? 
>(mostly military - has 'big gun' appeal). Millenium's End (same deal - 
>espionage and military coolness). What did IJ have? Archeological 
>expeditions and Nazis (tm)? Was that enough? 
 
Hurm.  So you're saying that games like Bond: 007, Top Secret (& S.I.), 
Gangbusters, Boot Hill,  or Call of Cthulhu (and their HERO and GURPS 
equivalents, like Danger International) are inherently doomed to failure 
because of a lack of brain candy like magic, mutant powers, "the Force", 
psionics, or the like?  (Note: I'm not challenging your view, I just find it 
interesting).  Kind of a depressing thought, isn't it?  That sorta sucker 
punches reams of genres that might be interesting to play in. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:48:04 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men (fwd) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 20 
 
Oops, sent this to the wrong person... 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
---------- Forwarded message ---------- 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 07:06:06 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access2.digex.net> 
To: HAPPYELF!!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
 
On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, HAPPYELF!!! wrote: 
 
> >>Eh ... this reminds me of the official company word on why the Indiana Jones 
> >>RPG by TSR failed. "Basically, everyone wants to play Indy, but who wants to 
> >>play Short Round?" 
 
Well, personally, I'd wouldn't mind seeing Short Round placed in a small 
box and tossed off a cliff... ^_^ 
 
> >Yeah, but that's TSR. They couldn't put out a solid RPG if their life 
> >depended on it. :-) And any RPG based on a 'commercial' product like Indiana 
> >Jones is doomed to failure and obscurity - the target market is too small, 
> >really (you gotta get the not only the roleplayers, but the roleplayers who 
> >like pulp adventure, and like Indiana Jones...no surprise it fails, huh?). 
 
Whihc is why a more general audience product like "Justic Inc." is a 
better idea, you don't pigeon hole yourslef into a narrow field of 
interest. 
 
> really- what about star wars? hell, what about this whole superhero thing?  
> it's not the genre's fault, y'know. . . 
 
The Star Wars RPG is designed to be much more borad in scope that the 
Indiana Jones RPG ever looked to be.  For starters, the writers don't 
expcet *anyone* to be playering the characters from the movies.  Instead, 
they have tried to provide settings, characters and adventures that 
involve a whole slew of alternate gmae ideas other than just the one 
presented in the movies (although the underlying focus is still the 
Alliance vs the Empire). 
 
Superheroes on the other hand is a very broad genre, that's been around 
since 1939.  There are virtually hundreds of characters, settings and 
worlds that have been created, of all flavors.  One is limited in scope to 
just one film (or set of films).  Also, superhero gaming has a much 
greater range of styles than would presented in the Indiana Jones RPG.  In 
fact, one could argue that 'pulp gaming' such as represnted by IJ RPG is a 
subset of superhero gaming.  As John Prins pointed out, IJ RPG is too 
narrow a field to really catch on as a game.  OTOH, at the time T$R had 
more than enough money to squander on such pointless projects.  
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 08 Jul 97 15:00:00 GMT 
Subject: Shrinking point pool? 
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
Path: october!opal 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 3 
 
 
 
 h >  
 h > For example, the Red Rollerblader, herald of Nebulos, has a 200 point  
 h > 'Draining VPP'. He can use 20 10-active point powers, or 5 20 AP  
 h > powers and  
 h > one 100 point power, or 40 5 point powers, etc. He regains points by  
 h > asking  
 h > his boss for a recharge. END Battery doesn't quite have the right  
 h > 'feel'  
 h > for my purposes, though in a pinch, it will do.  
  
Hmmm.... I've heard interpratations of VPP where the points you put  
into a power with Charges aren't accessible until you recover the  
charage (makes a certain amount of sense).  What you'd do is just  
have all powers bought in the VPP take 1 charge, that way the  
Pool is reduced each time you use a power... this wouldn't reduce  
the max Apts of  each power, just the available pts in the pool.  
  
  
And, since you mentioned END Reserve...  
  
This is an addition I made to END battery.  If you wanted, you  
could require the powers in a VPP to take 'Reducing Power' -  
they would then slowly fade out.  This is less pronounced than  
you described, but a bit more practical: you don't have to have  
excessively large VPPs to have a bit of staying power.  
  
Reducing Power:  Powers drawing on the Reserve can use no more  
     active points then are currently left in the END Reserve.  
     The value of the limitation varies based on how much more  
     END there is in the Reserve than Active points in the power:  
  
x1          -1  
x1 1/2    -3/4  
x2        -1/2  
x3        -1/4  
x4+         -0  
  
EX: Rothamon has a 12d EB with 'Reducing Power' that runs off  
a 120 END reserve.  He can fire 10 shots (60 END) before the  
power starts to fade.   His 11th EB is still 12 dice, but  
reduces the END Reserve to 54 END, his next EB will be 11d-1 if  
he uses it at full power.  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:52:43 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 23 
 
>Well, he's got a cool hat. That's gotta be a one point Perk at least. ;] 
 
Heh. In Nethack Plus (low-graphical interface dungeon crawl computer game, 
highly recommended!) you get +1 to your charisma if you wear a fedora :-). 
> 
>>How many 'ordinary folks' RPGs out there have made it? Twilight 2000? 
>>(mostly military - has 'big gun' appeal). Millenium's End (same deal - 
>>espionage and military coolness). What did IJ have? Archeological 
>>expeditions and Nazis (tm)? Was that enough? 
> 
>Hurm.  So you're saying that games like Bond: 007, Top Secret (& S.I.), 
>Gangbusters, Boot Hill,  or Call of Cthulhu (and their HERO and GURPS 
>equivalents, like Danger International) are inherently doomed to failure 
>because of a lack of brain candy like magic, mutant powers, "the Force", 
>psionics, or the like?  (Note: I'm not challenging your view, I just find it 
>interesting).  Kind of a depressing thought, isn't it?  That sorta sucker 
>punches reams of genres that might be interesting to play in. 
 
Espionage games are easier to sell because secret agents get cool gadgets 
:-). Call of Cthulhu works on its own merits, but is definitely not for 
everyone. Nobody I know ever 'just picked up' COC cold. With an IJ RPG, 
you're hoping for those 'cold sales'. It obviously didn't work - unlike with 
the Star Wars RPG. 
 
Anyway, _good_ roleplayers can have fun in any genre, be it IRS Adventures 
or Automechanics Unlimited :-). But by the same token, these roleplayers are 
just as likely to say 'I can adapt X game to my needs' rather than buying 
the IJ RPG. It's not like the setting has anything that absolutely 
_requires_ special, made to order rules (like a Fantasy campaign would, or 
Star Wars, etc.). 
 
Anyway, I will point out that 'brain candy' _does_ sell better than whole 
wheat RPGs (did I just coin a term? Whole Wheat RPG?). Look at Rifts. 
Nothing but brain candy there. Champs is nice because you can vary the ratio 
of whole wheat to brain candy as much as you like... 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:52:47 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 22 
 
>> What did IJ have? Archeological 
>> expeditions and Nazis (tm)? Was that enough? 
> 
>Uh, most definitly yes!!! 
> 
>You also missed Justice Inc. in your list of 'ordinary folks,' a Hero 
>product, and my favorite of all the Hero genres.  For that matter, there 
>was also Danger International. 
> 
>You don't need super powers and the like to have fun roleplaying. 
 
I never said you did. What I am saying is that it's a lot easier to sell a 
game if it's got some sort of 'brain candy' - super powers, gadgets, weird 
phenomena (did the IJ game have rules for 'Ark of the Covenant/Holy 
Grail/Stones of Kali' style wierdness, or was it all just 'plot device'?) 
Whether or not a game is fun doesn't determine it's life on the shelves - 
it's how many people are buying it (okay, people who have fun playing it are 
more likely to buy it, but that's another story...). 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 08 Jul 1997 11:58:08 -0400 
Lines: 23 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 24 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "KF" == Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> writes: 
 
KF> So you would have to get Indirect on your running to walk around a wall?  
 
Only if Running does not allow one to turn. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBM8JjhZ6VRH7BJMxHAQEdGgQAuFYW3MGHVQzVTDw3xKlNQTdtLfvqKQB0 
Ni2SThHl+MUdoe0lYWztaeR4OlUEE6Cvr1VBcVcwk6Qhgz9IndqEgrZ21SASbicM 
cM4r04/tyKhwtkooaZeTLHGsol4Pxcc0Iw+rDpCrgCKbLOmlFTq0UD/WTRXv7+d5 
X0NqbrqqYIo= 
=gmaX 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:33:35 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions vehicles 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 28 
 
At 03:08 PM 7/7/97 -0400, Clint Fishback wrote: 
>I remember in Champions II they had a bunch of disadvantages for vehicles 
i.e. extra time to get in and out, requires skill of x to drive. If anybody 
has this list, please send it to me. Thanx. 
 
   To me as well, please! 
   (Or to the list, if enough ask for it of course....) 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:33:36 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Living House (was Urban Myth Group) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 27 
 
At 09:50 AM 7/8/97 -0400, Patrick Barden wrote: 
>House:  a living house.  Can manipulate its interior walls, floors, 
>furniture etc.  Has the ability to "disappear"  by shifting itself into 
>another dimension.  This is the character I need some help on. 
>1)      Just how many levels of growth and or density increase would I need 
>to make a character who was as big as a house. 
 
   Rather than write him up as a character, I'd write him up with the Base 
rules, but give him (it?) INT and EGO (and, possibly, PRE). 
   On that take, 5 levels of Size ought to do the trick, if you don't mind 
it being a small house.  If you really want to write him up as a regular 
Character, that corresponds to 10 levels of Growth.  Another level of Size 
(2 of Growth) would make it a small, spooky-looking Gothic mansion. 
 
>2)      How would you handle this effect:  Anytime a person inside tries to 
>exit through a door or window they are automatically transported back 
>through another door or window elsewhere in the house preventing them from 
>leaving. 
 
   Shape Shift is one way of doing this.  Another is Teleport Gate.  (Gate 
is a +1/2 Advantage which turns Teleport or XDM into a gateway.  Make it 0 
END Persistent, season to taste, and you should have your effect.) 
 
>3)      Has the ability to produce virtually anything it feels the people 
>inside it needs (ie. food, clothing, other small items.) it can also make 
>these items disappear at will. 
 
   Transform (air to food/clothing/etc.) should be enough for this.  If you 
really want to, you can tack on a +1/4 "Plot Device" Advantage.   ;-] 
 
>4)      Virtually every room has a mirror in it and it can use these to 
>teleport individuals almost anywhere their is a mirror. 
 
   Teleport UAO, with appropriate Limitations. 
 
>5)      Are their any other effects that you think would be effective.  The 
>feeling I am going for is like being caught is some sort of nightmare house 
>that is constantly changing and attempting to prevent the people inside from 
>leaving.  I am not really concerned with the point totals so have fun. 
 
   Shape Shift, for one thing. 
   Change Environment (to create Thunderstorms around it) also seems 
appropriate, if a tad cliched. 
   Maybe you could stick a "radio" in one of the rooms, through which the 
house can "talk" to its "residents" (bought as Images vs hearing). 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:33:37 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Request for Super-Speed Tricks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 29 
 
At 10:45 PM 7/7/97 -0500, Earl Kwallek wrote: 
>Hey Guys, 
> 
>  I recently began updating some of the characters from my old (1st & 2nd 
>edition) Champions campaigns... 
> 
>  However I noticed that many of these characters no longer fit my 
>conceptions of how the game should be played... specifically not all 
>super-speedsters should have a 12 Spd. 
 
   That's the general concensus.  I personally tend to put speedsters' DEX 
and SPD right around those of Martial Artists, or a little higher, but 
that's not to everyone's tastes.  (Average 23/5, Martial Artists 26/6, 
Speedsters 28/6-7) 
 
>  This leads indirectly (+1 advantage level) to a request: 
> 
>  Please post any "Super-speed" tricks (w/Game mechanics) that you have 
>come up with and are willing to share with me... 
 
   This has been discussed before, and someone made a small archive of 
"speedster tricks" that they will probably send to you.  (I think it'd be 
something good for someone to put on a web page, though.) 
   One of my favorites is to give the speedster Overall Skill Levels with 
the -1 Limitation "Only To Neutralize Time Penalties," and possibly Costs 
END.  This enables the character to do things at super-speed (like 
Lockpicking, Computer Programming, PS: Accounting, etc.) with the same level 
of skill as another character at normal speed (1 step up the Time Chart per 
+1 Skill Level). 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Gary G MIles <GGM1201@dmacc.cc.ia.us> 
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 09:46:02 -0700 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Newsgroups: october.hero 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
Path: october.com!not-for-mail 
Organization: DMACC - Ankeny Campus 
Lines: 12 
X-Sender: GGM1201@161.210.150.39 
Nntp-Posting-Host: 161.210.150.39 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
herolist wrote: 
>  
> From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
> Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
> To: champ-l@omg.org 
> fun. Reminds me of...The Wizard! Remember that TV show? Midget inventor and 
> his assistant, apprentice, various and sundry others? Loads of fun, that one 
> - too bad it lacked the appeal to last (it made what, one season? Two?) Then 
> there was Tales From the Brass Monkey...That's "Tales of the Gold Monkey", the adventures of Jake, Corky, and of  
course, Jack- the dog with the glass eye.  A wonderful pulp adventure. 
 
Gary 
 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:48:22 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Urban Myth Group 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 25 
 
On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Patrick Barden wrote: 
 
> House:  a living house.  Can manipulate its interior walls, floors, 
> furniture etc.  Has the ability to "disappear"  by shifting itself into 
> another dimension.  This is the character I need some help on. 
> 1)      Just how many levels of growth and or density increase would I need 
> to make a character who was as big as a house. 
 
A lot.  My suggestion is to buy it as a base.  That way you just have to 
figure out how many hexes the building takes up in floor space.  It 
determine that, look in the paper at house floor plans, or check out house 
renovating magazines in the library.   
 
> 2)      How would you handle this effect:  Anytime a person inside tries to 
> exit through a door or window they are automatically transported back 
> through another door or window elsewhere in the house preventing them from 
> leaving. 
 
This would be a triggered teleport.  I don't have Mystic Masters handy, 
but the descroption of 'gates' from that book would work as well.  I'd 
recommend invisible effects on this power as well. (Hey?  Didn't that door 
lead _outside_?)  Note that this may require a *lot* of teleporting 
locations. 
 
> 3)      Has the ability to produce virtually anything it feels the people 
> inside it needs (ie. food, clothing, other small items.) it can also make 
> these items disappear at will. 
 
This would be simple, the base has Full LIfe Support for anyone inside. 
One could also include a variable Change Enviroment in order to manipulate 
the insides (such as cleaning up a messy room, or messing up a straitned 
room.  Horrific effects could work as well - blood from the walls etc) 
One could also try an invisible TK (10 STR) as 'poltergiest' effects. 
 
> 4)      Virtually every room has a mirror in it and it can use these to 
> teleport individuals almost anywhere their is a mirror. 
 
More triggered teleprt, of Extra Dimensional Movement. 
 
> 5)      Are their any other effects that you think would be effective.  The 
> feeling I am going for is like being caught is some sort of nightmare house 
> that is constantly changing and attempting to prevent the people inside from 
> leaving.  I am not really concerned with the point totals so have fun. 
 
Give the base an AI computer to represent the evil 'spirit' that inhabits 
the house.  There is an issue of AC that includes "The House that Jack 
Built" which is an errie haunted house much like what you describe.  If 
you're not worried about point totals, then only note relevant stats (like 
the house's EGO etc and just write out it's other powers. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:17:48 -0400 (EDT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 30 
 
> When we played our Golden Heroes campaign the referee asked us to make  
> characters using the Justice Inc rules, 75 points with 100 points  
> disadvantages, after we had submitted those characters we were then provided  
> 75 points for _one_ power. This power might have been the ability to turn  
> into flame which would give us flight and a fiery touch but it wouldn't give  
> us any defensive capability, it may have been superstrength though we  
> couldn't buy armour or any other defensive capability. One character  
> actually asked for invulnerability, and the GM gave him a package which  
> covered almost every possibility of damage in the game, he was however quite  
> easy to overpower and hold down, he had no offensive or movement powers  
> beyond normal. 
>  
 
This sounds like an incredibly good idea to me.  I'd be interested to 
know: what other power concepts did the players come up with?  Also, 
what is Justice, Inc., a suppliment for Champs? 
 
The more I read the BBB, the more I believe that limiting the amount 
of points that players can spend on powers, and setting a minimum number 
of points that players must spend on non-combat skills is necessary 
to discourage the creation of walking, talking nukes as characters. 
 
>  
> Stephen McGinness 
>  
 
-Eric 
 
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified) 
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 13:05:56 -0500 
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us> 
Subject: Brain Candy & Gaming 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:19 AM 7/8/97 -0500, Bryan Berggren wrote: 
>Hurm.  So you're saying that games like Bond: 007, Top Secret (& S.I.), 
>Gangbusters, Boot Hill,  or Call of Cthulhu (and their HERO and GURPS 
>equivalents, like Danger International) are inherently doomed to failure 
>because of a lack of brain candy like magic, mutant powers, "the Force", 
>psionics, or the like?  (Note: I'm not challenging your view, I just find it 
>interesting).  Kind of a depressing thought, isn't it?  That sorta sucker 
>punches reams of genres that might be interesting to play in. 
> 
 
  Based on the games that are popular in my area, I'm sort of inclined to 
agree. 
 
There is at any rate, a definite tendency among the majority of gamers in 
my area to "Powertripping" (ie: Characters that are closer to gods than to 
humans in terms of raw power). 
 
  Examples: 
 
	Anything by White Wolf, VTM was powerful enough, but each game they 
published after that seemed to increase the power-level of the "World of 
Darkness" by another order of magnitude... 
 
  RIFTS (Need I say more), and for that matter anything else put out by 
Palladium. 
 
  AD&D- Stat tables extended to 40+ (for PC's; Dieties still run in the 
20's). 14th level paladins with no stat range 14-18 are "Too wimpy" 
  
  Champions. When played at all around here it seems to run as 250+ 
Unlimited Disads, with such things as EC "Super Physique" (ie: buy all your 
stats in an EC) 
 
  GURPS ditto... but to a lesser extent, it's only really popular with the 
old-school gamers, who understand the concept of restraint. 
 
 
  In short, to paraphrase a buddy of mine "More power = less roleplaying", 
this doesn't have to be true, but too often it is 
 
 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:03:46 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net (Unverified) 
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 33 
 
At 11:58 AM 7/8/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "KF" == Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> writes: 
> 
>KF> So you would have to get Indirect on your running to walk around a wall?  
> 
>Only if Running does not allow one to turn. 
 
 
Exaclty. No where in Stretching does it say it has an inherent straight line 
only limitation. Thinking along the same lines you would have to buy some 
form of Indirect on your strength to represent having joints and the ability 
to reach around obstacles. Stretching just increases your reach.  
	What sick person put an "S" in lisp? 
 
X-Sender: wbandsis@mail.westco.net 
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 16:21:20 -0400 
From: Charles Badger <wbandsis@westco.net> 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 15:03 07/08/97 -0400, Kim Foster wrote: 
>At 11:58 AM 7/8/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>> 
>>>>>>> "KF" == Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> writes: 
>> 
>>KF> So you would have to get Indirect on your running to walk around a wall?  
>> 
>>Only if Running does not allow one to turn. 
> 
> 
>Exaclty. No where in Stretching does it say it has an inherent straight line 
>only limitation. Thinking along the same lines you would have to buy some 
>form of Indirect on your strength to represent having joints and the ability 
>to reach around obstacles. Stretching just increases your reach.  
 
This brought up a nice idea have stretching and a limit of just bend at the 
elbows -1/2 so yes you can stretch 20 feet but your arm can only bend at the 
elbow/wrist/shoulder like normal. basically you have oversized arms instead 
of the more tentacle motion Mr. Fantastic and other stretchers in the comics 
do.  
 
----- 
Charles T. Badger 
 
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 13:30:31 -0700 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Shrinking point pool? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I am interested in ideas, etc, for implementing a variant VPP...one where 
the points used for a power are 'consumed' until they 'regenerate'. This 
can be used to represent a Wizard with a fixed amount of 'spell points', 
someone with a Power Ring which runs down until recharged, etc. 
 
For example, the Red Rollerblader, herald of Nebulos, has a 200 point 
'Draining VPP'. He can use 20 10-active point powers, or 5 20 AP powers and 
one 100 point power, or 40 5 point powers, etc. He regains points by asking 
his boss for a recharge. END Battery doesn't quite have the right 'feel' 
for my purposes, though in a pinch, it will do. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 08 Jul 1997 17:03:23 -0400 
Lines: 36 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "KF" == Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> writes: 
 
KF> Exaclty. No where in Stretching does it say it has an inherent straight 
KF> line only limitation. 
 
Similarly, nowhere in Stretching does it say that it has an inherent "go 
aroud corners" advantage.  But Running *DOES* state that one may turn with 
it, thus allowing one to go around corners.  To wit, it and the other 
"controlled" movement Powers have explicit allowances for turning (the 
"uncontrolled" forms such as Superleap and Teleportation do have a straight 
line restriction).  So, if your comparison between Stretching and Running 
is valid, then because Running does specify this and Stretching does not it 
is not innate ability of Stretching.  If it was it would have been 
specified. 
 
Not that I belive that the comparison between Stretching and Running is 
valid; it is not.  The two are different types of powers and such 
comparison is bogus. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBM8KrGJ6VRH7BJMxHAQFlSAQAuQbueHYYFC4mno/QEsI9OeFDItiel+w9 
njbiDfUmxjHBrZAsUTpLC0OmKhvQODDmzPEH4Mu4EQ+klAbp6YSdJ7D7M2sflwJh 
Qe0qVHrZxARfT2q8zo30SVBKscqPu8+xei+Kh0CL5XlwZkRyvSq6ezgpkaiaqzMb 
b5PRWW9r/qY= 
=ir3t 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 07:15:21 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: HAPPYELF!!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>> really- what about star wars? hell, what about this whole superhero thing?  
>> it's not the genre's fault, y'know. . . 
> 
>The Star Wars RPG is designed to be much more borad in scope that the 
>Indiana Jones RPG ever looked to be.  For starters, the writers don't 
>expcet *anyone* to be playering the characters from the movies.  Instead, 
>they have tried to provide settings, characters and adventures that 
>involve a whole slew of alternate gmae ideas other than just the one 
>presented in the movies (although the underlying focus is still the 
>Alliance vs the Empire). 
> 
 
yes, but it's still fits the description, doesn't it? those traits need  
to be mentioned more- especially in this forum. 
 
 
>Superheroes on the other hand is a very broad genre, that's been around 
>since 1939.  There are virtually hundreds of characters, settings and 
>worlds that have been created, of all flavors.  One is limited in scope to 
>just one film (or set of films).  Also, superhero gaming has a much 
>greater range of styles than would presented in the Indiana Jones RPG.  In 
>fact, one could argue that 'pulp gaming' such as represnted by IJ RPG is a 
>subset of superhero gaming.  As John Prins pointed out, IJ RPG is too 
>narrow a field to really catch on as a game.  OTOH, at the time T$R had 
>more than enough money to squander on such pointless projects.  
> 
 
actually, it is not narrow- compared to the super-cliche mostly endorsed by  
super-rpg's. it's about spot on identical in scope, actually. . . . archetypes  
flinginh back and forth. . . . .  
 
 
 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 07:23:32 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: HAPPYELF!!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:45 AM 7/8/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>>really- what about star wars? hell, what about this whole superhero thing?  
>>it's not the genre's fault, y'know. . . 
> 
>Come on - are you really going to compare the appeal of Indiana Jones as an 
>RPG to Star Wars or Comic Books? Heck, the Star Wars RPG was enough to suck 
>non-roleplaying fans of Star Wars into buying and playing it - but did IJ 
>have that sort of appeal? 
> 
 
yes, but you were a bit vague. .  
 
 
 
>I wasn't denigrating producing an RPG product based on a commercial product, 
>you know - I was denigrating basing it on a commercial product like Indiana 
>Jones - which has the big, big drawback (as far as RPG'ing is concerned) of 
>a decided lack of 'special powers' for the PCs. Sure, they might be 
>_heroes_, but there's nothing to really distinguish them from the ordinary 
>joe, is there? 
> 
 
tricks with their whip? cool martial arts? exploding arks full of ghosts? 
 
 
>How many 'ordinary folks' RPGs out there have made it? Twilight 2000? 
>(mostly military - has 'big gun' appeal). Millenium's End (same deal - 
>espionage and military coolness). What did IJ have? Archeological 
>expeditions and Nazis (tm)? Was that enough? 
> 
 
it was a classic pulp-style movie! you confuse the genre- remember, just  
'cause indy chases coffins (and what about all his fancy whip tricks?) 
doesn't mean the pc's do- and what about all the supernatural stuff? 
Many heroes and villans have indy-type origins- what about a secret  
origins type campaign based around a bunch of archeologists? 
"ok, folks, only one of your characters will survive the  
archairc tomb of the death crusaders, but the one that does 
get's super powers, and can join my mystery man campaign!" 
 
 
 
 
 
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
>else's house?" 
>-NHS #56 
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>John D. Prins 
>jprins@interhop.net 
> 
> 
> 
> 
 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 07:31:53 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: HAPPYELF!!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:57 AM 7/8/97 -0700, you wrote: 
>You don't need super powers and the like to have fun roleplaying.  The 
>problem with IJ is not the setting, but the game system itself and the 
>fact that Indy is the main character, and the only one worth playing.  
>That makes for lousy group gaming!! 
> 
>			~ Mike 
> 
 
 
Hey! this is hero, man! what , are we all waiting for the folks at hero to  
do us up some character  sheets?  
ALSO, there's this attitude that cool stuff like whips and equavilent tricks 
don't count as powers. ... . .. .  
 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 07:46:38 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: HAPPYELF!!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>You don't need super powers and the like to have fun roleplaying. 
> 
>I never said you did. What I am saying is that it's a lot easier to sell a 
>game if it's got some sort of 'brain candy' - super powers, gadgets, weird 
>phenomena (did the IJ game have rules for 'Ark of the Covenant/Holy 
>Grail/Stones of Kali' style wierdness, or was it all just 'plot device'?) 
>Whether or not a game is fun doesn't determine it's life on the shelves - 
>it's how many people are buying it (okay, people who have fun playing it are 
>more likely to buy it, but that's another story...). 
> 
 
once again, this kind of 'cold hard facts' marketing dogma don't work  
in roleplaying. The industry is far to tight to try to play to the lowest common denominator- like i said before, they're all off playing nintendo and warhammer  
quest.  
 
 
 
 
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
>else's house?" 
>-NHS #56 
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>John D. Prins 
>jprins@interhop.net 
> 
> 
> 
> 
 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 07:54:20 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: HAPPYELF!!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>Espionage games are easier to sell because secret agents get cool gadgets 
>:-). Call of Cthulhu works on its own merits, but is definitely not for 
>everyone. Nobody I know ever 'just picked up' COC cold. With an IJ RPG, 
>you're hoping for those 'cold sales'. It obviously didn't work - unlike with 
>the Star Wars RPG. 
> 
 
u-huh? so it's been cruisning along all this time on the wieght of bells and wistles? 
hang on- 
what bells and wistles? 
 
 
>Anyway, _good_ roleplayers can have fun in any genre, be it IRS Adventures 
>or Automechanics Unlimited :-). But by the same token, these roleplayers are 
>just as likely to say 'I can adapt X game to my needs' rather than buying 
>the IJ RPG. It's not like the setting has anything that absolutely 
>_requires_ special, made to order rules (like a Fantasy campaign would, or 
>Star Wars, etc.). 
> 
 
 
made to order rules? this is hero! useing that logic, none of us should  
need to by anything but the bbb!  
 
 
 
>Anyway, I will point out that 'brain candy' _does_ sell better than whole 
>wheat RPGs (did I just coin a term? Whole Wheat RPG?). Look at Rifts. 
>Nothing but brain candy there. Champs is nice because you can vary the ratio 
>of whole wheat to brain candy as much as you like... 
> 
 
 
oh, yeah!! the old 'completly new plot and setting" is  
ALWAYS brain candy! *lol*  
rifts is very original stuff: better than torg by a long way,  
and extremly well supported- or is that a deffinition of brain candy too? 
 
i guess hero's as wheaty as they get!! 
 
 
 
 
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
>else's house?" 
>-NHS #56 
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>John D. Prins 
>jprins@interhop.net 
> 
> 
> 
> 
 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 07:56:16 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: HAPPYELF!!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Shrinking point pool? 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:30 PM 7/8/97 -0700, you wrote: 
>I am interested in ideas, etc, for implementing a variant VPP...one where 
>the points used for a power are 'consumed' until they 'regenerate'. This 
>can be used to represent a Wizard with a fixed amount of 'spell points', 
>someone with a Power Ring which runs down until recharged, etc. 
> 
>For example, the Red Rollerblader, herald of Nebulos, has a 200 point 
>'Draining VPP'. He can use 20 10-active point powers, or 5 20 AP powers and 
>one 100 point power, or 40 5 point powers, etc. He regains points by asking 
>his boss for a recharge. END Battery doesn't quite have the right 'feel' 
>for my purposes, though in a pinch, it will do. 
> 
 
 
 
have you heard of the 'scarlet skier'??? he was the herald of the original  
'fasion victim' character.  
 
i often do this via charges, for each power, useing the same set of charges,  
for frameworks.  
 
cc: kayuucee@cfar.umd.edu 
Subject: Golden Age Mystery Men Campaign 
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 18:01:29 -0400 
From: "Kenneth W. Crist Jr." <kayuucee@cfar.umd.edu> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
	Are there people on this list interested in playing in 
a Golden Age PBEM game? If there is enough interest, I'd be willing 
to GM a game. If not, I will run a Silver Age game for any players 
who wish to play. 
	E-mail me for more details. 
 
						Ken Crist 
 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 08:05:39 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: HAPPYELF!!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Urban Myth Group 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:48 PM 7/8/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Patrick Barden wrote: 
> 
>> House:  a living house.  Can manipulate its interior walls, floors, 
>> furniture etc.  Has the ability to "disappear"  by shifting itself into 
>> another dimension.  This is the character I need some help on. 
>> 1)      Just how many levels of growth and or density increase would I need 
>> to make a character who was as big as a house. 
> 
 
 
 
i'd say buy it as a hose! i know it's missing the point, but i find a 'spirit of the house' type thing (desolid all the time, ect) works pretty well for all sorts of things. .  
like my guy Quinkin, who's an automaton- the actual guy can only summon hinm in rainstorms, and spends the rest of the time driving people mad with dreams. ..  
 
 
hey. .  
 
 
hows about turning this myth group into a superHERO team? candyman with his  
"prozak" which causes magical/chemical lobotomy in criminals. . .  
 
The house: 
 
"well, we know to stay away from it, and besides, all it evr eats is shifty 
out-of towners" 
 
 
and so forth. . . . .  
 
 
 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 08:08:41 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: HAPPYELF!!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:17 PM 7/8/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>> When we played our Golden Heroes campaign the referee asked us to make  
>> characters using the Justice Inc rules, 75 points with 100 points  
>> disadvantages, after we had submitted those characters we were then provided  
>> 75 points for _one_ power. This power might have been the ability to turn  
>> into flame which would give us flight and a fiery touch but it wouldn't give  
>> us any defensive capability, it may have been superstrength though we  
>> couldn't buy armour or any other defensive capability. One character  
>> actually asked for invulnerability, and the GM gave him a package which  
>> covered almost every possibility of damage in the game, he was however quite  
>> easy to overpower and hold down, he had no offensive or movement powers  
>> beyond normal. 
>>  
> 
>The more I read the BBB, the more I believe that limiting the amount 
>of points that players can spend on powers, and setting a minimum number 
>of points that players must spend on non-combat skills is necessary 
>to discourage the creation of walking, talking nukes as characters. 
> 
>>  
>> Stephen McGinness 
>>  
> 
>-Eric 
> 
 
 
 
Clearly in normal champs you can do this too- 
 
don't put any limits on active points, BUT be 'stingy' with disads, and you'll  
come up with a team who needs to cooperate to survive! 
 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 19:08:57 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>Espionage games are easier to sell because secret agents get cool gadgets 
>>:-). Call of Cthulhu works on its own merits, but is definitely not for 
>>everyone. Nobody I know ever 'just picked up' COC cold. With an IJ RPG, 
>>you're hoping for those 'cold sales'. It obviously didn't work - unlike with 
>>the Star Wars RPG. 
>> 
> 
>u-huh? so it's been cruisning along all this time on the wieght of bells 
and wistles? 
>hang on- 
>what bells and wistles? 
 
Hmm. I wish you'd be a little clearer what you're referring to. COC gets by 
for two reasons: A.) Fabulous word of mouth, and B.) Literate gamers who 
have actually read Lovecraft's works. Most of the die-hard gamers eventually 
fall into the B.) category. Lovecraft is almost required reading for an RPGer... 
 
Anyway, COC sells more to the 'older' gaming market (20+). That's the 
'confirmed' gamer territory - people who won't 'give up' gaming as 'some 
childish pursuit' (you've met people out there..."Oh, I used to play 
D&D...when I was a teenager..."). These are the dedicated fans who are both 
loyal and have the free cash to keep something like COC a profitable venture. 
 
IJ, on the other hand, is aimed at the younger gaming market, with less 
available cash and more apt to buy the 'bells and whistles' stuff like Star 
Wars, Rifts, or AD&D. Of course, there's more potential sales in the young 
market thanks to sheer numbers, low free cash notwithstanding...<shrug> 
 
>>Anyway, _good_ roleplayers can have fun in any genre, be it IRS Adventures 
>>or Automechanics Unlimited :-). But by the same token, these roleplayers are 
>>just as likely to say 'I can adapt X game to my needs' rather than buying 
>>the IJ RPG. It's not like the setting has anything that absolutely 
>>_requires_ special, made to order rules (like a Fantasy campaign would, or 
>>Star Wars, etc.). 
> 
>made to order rules? this is hero! useing that logic, none of us should  
>need to by anything but the bbb!  
 
That's right, none of us _NEED_ anything more than the BBB. All the other 
books are settings and 'idea' sourcebooks. The only real thing the UMA 
offers is the 'build martial arts maneuvers' stuff. Everything else is pure 
fluff. That doesn't mean it isn't useful, but you can run a perfectly good 
martial arts campaign on the BBB alone. 
 
>>Look at Rifts. 
>>Nothing but brain candy there. Champs is nice because you can vary the ratio 
>>of whole wheat to brain candy as much as you like... 
 
>oh, yeah!! the old 'completly new plot and setting" is  
>ALWAYS brain candy! *lol*  
>rifts is very original stuff: better than torg by a long way,  
>and extremly well supported- or is that a deffinition of brain candy too? 
 
Hey, I own a LOT of Rifts stuff, and yes, there are plenty of original, good 
ideas there. But let's face it. The rules are unrealistic, and many of the 
settings are _heavily_ contrived. For example, would the Coalition _really_ 
be stupid enough to not want as many Glitter Boy suits as Free Quebec could 
manufacture? Why didn't the Coalition have supersonic jets until the 
Mercinary Sourcebook? Why doesn't anybody ever hook their laser rifle up to 
the nuclear power pack of a powersuit for infinite ammo? How come railguns 
do MD when they only fire projectiles that travel as fast as a modern day 
machinegun? How come Palladium can't come up with power armor that actually 
looks like a person could fit in it and still move? (check the Glitter Boy 
and tell me that the pilot's arms are _really_ inside the arms of the suit, 
uh-huh. Even the SAMAS looks anatomically impossible to pilot... 
 
>i guess hero's as wheaty as they get!! 
 
Wheaties, the BREAKFAST OF CHAMPIONS! Nuff said! 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 18:28:42 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:52 AM 7/8/97 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
>>Well, he's got a cool hat. That's gotta be a one point Perk at least. ;] 
> 
>Heh. In Nethack Plus (low-graphical interface dungeon crawl computer game, 
>highly recommended!) you get +1 to your charisma if you wear a fedora :-). 
 
Ah, Nethack -- that's in the "Rogue/Moria" family, yes?  Where the various 
monsters are letters of the alphabet? 
 
Truly wierd idea for a deathtrap: anyone ever see the old "Spider-Friends" 
episode debuting Video Man (who they later brought back as a completely 
different character), where Our Heroes(tm) get dumped inside a video game 
that tries to ace them?  I can only imagine the humiliation of heroes dumped 
inside Rogue, and valiantly battling the letter B. 
 
>Espionage games are easier to sell because secret agents get cool gadgets 
>:-). Call of Cthulhu works on its own merits, but is definitely not for 
>everyone.  
 
Actually, it seems like Horror inverses the formula -- I don't think =Beyond 
the Supernatural= ever really took off, and it has to be the candiest game 
of that genre around, whereas in Cthulhu, people seem to gravitate to the 
most mundane sorts of characters possible and live it up like it was 
Hackmaster.  Maybe it has to do with the inherent "crush me like a grape" 
kind of masochism required to get into horror in the first place. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 18:28:44 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:03 PM 7/8/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Similarly, nowhere in Stretching does it say that it has an inherent "go 
>aroud corners" advantage. 
 
This is because such a thing isn't an advantage to a human arm.  I can reach 
around a corner and grab an object/person -- the limiting factor is the 
length of my arm, not the fact that I had to "turn". 
 
> But Running *DOES* state that one may turn with it, thus allowing one to 
> go around corners.  To wit, it and the other "controlled" movement Powers 
> have explicit allowances for turning (the "uncontrolled" forms such as 
> Superleap and Teleportation do have a straight line restriction). 
 
There's no "line" at all for Teleportation.  This would render the Power 
Running with Invisible Power effects; a Teleporter simply does not pass 
through the intervening space at all.  Just thought I'd point that out. 
 
> So, if your comparison between Stretching and Running is valid, then 
> because Running does specify this and Stretching does not it is not  
> innate ability of Stretching.  If it was it would have been specified. 
> 
>Not that I belive that the comparison between Stretching and Running is 
>valid; it is not.  The two are different types of powers and such 
>comparison is bogus. 
 
Rat, let me put this very simply: they are very similar types of power in 
one respect -- THEY ARE NOT ATTACKS.   
 
Read the summary of "Indirect", the last paragraph on the page.  Notice how 
it keeps saying "if the ATTACK" (emphasis mine)?  Stretching isn't an 
attack.  It requires no attack roll, it requires no action (you can stretch 
to the keyboard of a computer halfway across the room to make a 1/2 Phase 
Programming Skill Roll, then make your normal attack stretching the other 
way all in the same phase), it's just a power to increase your reach. 
 
Indirect + Stretching = Nonce Construction. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 18:28:47 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:54 AM 7/9/97 +1000, HAPPYELF!!! wrote: 
>made to order rules? this is hero! useing that logic, none of us should  
>need to by anything but the bbb!  
 
And your point being? :] :] :] 
 
> rifts is very original stuff: better than torg by a long way, and  
> extremly well supported- or is that a deffinition of brain candy too? 
 
First of all, a lot of it isn't that original, seeing as Kevin and his boys 
just copied it straight up from the other games they'd built.  Magic comes 
from =Palladium Fantasy=, mega-damage and mecha from =Robotech-, psionics 
from =Beyond the Supernatural=, cybernetics from =Ninjas & Superspies=, etc. 
And let's not forget dumping in =Mechanoids= wholesale;  
 
I'd gladly trade half of =Rifts='s "originality" for a healthy dose of 
working game mechanics and/or balance.  The "hey, let's write another book 
with even MORE powerful characters!" attitude, plus the "let's write another 
book to invalidate the last book we left uninvalidated!" effect basically 
drove me out of the Palladium system for good.  And the first published 
adventure (in the Rifts Sourcebook) was so damn linear, I'm surprised it 
doesn't come with a warning label: "The Gamemaster General has determined 
that running this adventure may cause players to throttle their GM in 
frustration.") 
 
And in any case, a statement like "better than torg by a long way" is a 
matter of opinion.  IMO, the boys at West End have a better sense of 
melodrama than Kevin Siembeda -- reading the TORG rules gives me a real 
sense of what adventures in the TORG genre should feel like, while even 
after reading published adventures from Palladium I have no real idea what a 
"typical" Rifts session would be like.  
 
(Yes, I like Torg.  I especially like that I got to buy the whole damn 
system for $30 at a GenCon clearance :]). 
 
>i guess hero's as wheaty as they get!! 
 
Uh ... HERO isn't really wheaty or candy.  It's a well-stocked kitchen which 
allows you to make your own meals. :] 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 09:30:10 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: HAPPYELF!!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 06:28 PM 7/8/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>At 07:54 AM 7/9/97 +1000, HAPPYELF!!! wrote: 
>>made to order rules? this is hero! useing that logic, none of us should  
>>need to by anything but the bbb!  
> 
>And your point being? :] :] :] 
> 
>> rifts is very original stuff: better than torg by a long way, and  
>> extremly well supported- or is that a deffinition of brain candy too? 
> 
>First of all, a lot of it isn't that original, seeing as Kevin and his boys 
>just copied it straight up from the other games they'd built.  Magic comes 
>from =Palladium Fantasy=, mega-damage and mecha from =Robotech-, psionics 
>from =Beyond the Supernatural=, cybernetics from =Ninjas & Superspies=, etc. 
>And let's not forget dumping in =Mechanoids= wholesale;  
> 
 
u-huh? and mechanics is what counts? well, in that case, hero's the least original game ever!  
 
 
 
 
>I'd gladly trade half of =Rifts='s "originality" for a healthy dose of 
>working game mechanics and/or balance.  The "hey, let's write another book 
>with even MORE powerful characters!" attitude, plus the "let's write another 
>book to invalidate the last book we left uninvalidated!" effect basically 
>drove me out of the Palladium system for good.  And the first published 
>adventure (in the Rifts Sourcebook) was so damn linear, I'm surprised it 
>doesn't come with a warning label: "The Gamemaster General has determined 
>that running this adventure may cause players to throttle their GM in 
>frustration.") 
> 
 
puh-lease! let's face it- my point is still valid.  
 
 
 
>And in any case, a statement like "better than torg by a long way" is a 
>matter of opinion.  IMO, the boys at West End have a better sense of 
>melodrama than Kevin Siembeda -- reading the TORG rules gives me a real 
>sense of what adventures in the TORG genre should feel like, while even 
>after reading published adventures from Palladium I have no real idea what a 
>"typical" Rifts session would be like.  
> 
 
 
i know- this is a problem of their. . and a problem of hero's too, imho. .  
 
>(Yes, I like Torg.  I especially like that I got to buy the whole damn 
>system for $30 at a GenCon clearance :]). 
> 
>>i guess hero's as wheaty as they get!! 
> 
>Uh ... HERO isn't really wheaty or candy.  It's a well-stocked kitchen which 
>allows you to make your own meals. :] 
> 
 
yay! i agree!  
 
 
>-- 
>Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
>+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
>| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
>+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
>   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
> 
> 
 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:34:39 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Filksinger wrote: 
 
> Agreed. Indirect should cover, "My aerodynamic shurikens can go  
> around corners" and "The wall doesn't stop my grenade, because I can  
> throw it over the wall" at a rock bottom minimum, both of which are  
> forbidden by the rules, and which Indirect doesn't quite cover. 
 
These can be done simply enough with Indirect with a Limitation "not 
through complete enclosure", no? 
 
 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:53:50 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 6 Jul 1997, Bryan Berggren wrote: 
 
> >Stretching is more efficient at the lower levels; TK is more efficient at 
> >the higher levels. 
>  
> No, it's more accurate to say "Stretching HAS lower levels, TK doesn't". 
> I'll freely admit, my "TK: SFX Stretching" power has a minimum cost (25 
> points for the average character).  That doesn't affect "efficiency" -- 
 
If the minimal level is more than you'd ever want, it certainly does - 
the Power forces you to spend points for nothing, which is hardly 
"efficient". 
 
>         6d6 Energy Blast.  Startin range == 150".  Costs 30 points. 
>         I buy it no range.  I save 10 points. 
>         3" Stretching, Only w/ EB (-1/2), No Noncombat (-1/4). 9 points. 
> 
> For a loss of *147"* range, I get ONE point back.  Oh, yeah, and I have to 
> burn an extra END on the power.  If I buy one more inch of Stretching (or 
> buy it 0 END), I'm paying MORE for the "short range" power than I would for 
> the full range version! 
 
"Only w/ one power" is easily a -1... you're still picking your examples 
awfully carefully. Try a more standard 50 AP Power... by taking it No 
Range and buying 2" No END Stretching, you save a full 10 points. Yeah, 
you lose 248" of Range... big whoop; how many of those inches would you 
ever use? 
 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 10:07:48 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: HAPPYELF!!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>u-huh? so it's been cruisning along all this time on the wieght of bells 
>and wistles? 
>>hang on- 
>>what bells and wistles? 
> 
>Hmm. I wish you'd be a little clearer what you're referring to. COC gets by 
>for two reasons: A.) Fabulous word of mouth, and B.) Literate gamers who 
>have actually read Lovecraft's works. Most of the die-hard gamers eventually 
>fall into the B.) category. Lovecraft is almost required reading for an RPGer... 
> 
 
i meant star wars- not many bells and whistles i can see. .  
 
 
 
>Anyway, COC sells more to the 'older' gaming market (20+). That's the 
>'confirmed' gamer territory - people who won't 'give up' gaming as 'some 
>childish pursuit' (you've met people out there..."Oh, I used to play 
>D&D...when I was a teenager..."). These are the dedicated fans who are both 
>loyal and have the free cash to keep something like COC a profitable venture. 
> 
 
 
yes, and that is the only real market- because the unrealiability of the  
'bells and whistles' group, and hence the rejection of the 'bells and whistles' marketing theory (i promise notto use that phrase ever agiain) 
 
 
 
>IJ, on the other hand, is aimed at the younger gaming market, with less 
>available cash and more apt to buy the 'bells and whistles' stuff like Star 
>Wars, Rifts, or AD&D. Of course, there's more potential sales in the young 
>market thanks to sheer numbers, low free cash notwithstanding...<shrug> 
> 
  
once again, you are not doing these games credit- they are simply more common genre's, 
and rifts is not even that. i think you should define what you mean by. .  
*sorry* 
"bells and whistles" -  
 
>>made to order rules? this is hero! useing that logic, none of us should  
>>need to by anything but the bbb!  
> 
>That's right, none of us _NEED_ anything more than the BBB. All the other 
>books are settings and 'idea' sourcebooks. The only real thing the UMA 
>offers is the 'build martial arts maneuvers' stuff. Everything else is pure 
>fluff. That doesn't mean it isn't useful, but you can run a perfectly good 
>martial arts campaign on the BBB alone. 
> 
 
yes, but by need i mean 'has signifigant possible requirement' and  
what about story? and ideas? current market trend siggests those things are very important to players.  
 
 
 
 
>>>Look at Rifts. 
>>>Nothing but brain candy there. Champs is nice because you can vary the ratio 
>>>of whole wheat to brain candy as much as you like... 
> 
>>oh, yeah!! the old 'completly new plot and setting" is  
>>ALWAYS brain candy! *lol*  
>>rifts is very original stuff: better than torg by a long way,  
>>and extremly well supported- or is that a deffinition of brain candy too? 
> 
>Hey, I own a LOT of Rifts stuff, and yes, there are plenty of original, good 
>ideas there. But let's face it. The rules are unrealistic, and many of the 
>settings are _heavily_ contrived. For example, would the Coalition _really_ 
>be stupid enough to not want as many Glitter Boy suits as Free Quebec could 
>manufacture? Why didn't the Coalition have supersonic jets until the 
>Mercinary Sourcebook? Why doesn't anybody ever hook their laser rifle up to 
>the nuclear power pack of a powersuit for infinite ammo? How come railguns 
>do MD when they only fire projectiles that travel as fast as a modern day 
>machinegun? How come Palladium can't come up with power armor that actually 
>looks like a person could fit in it and still move? (check the Glitter Boy 
>and tell me that the pilot's arms are _really_ inside the arms of the suit, 
>uh-huh. Even the SAMAS looks anatomically impossible to pilot... 
> 
 
*sigh* now were into reality? what the hell? ok, how do you explain chuthulu? 
mass halucination? dinosaur? big piece of fungus? 
look, do i really haver to go through that list of inconsistencies and rebutt them all?  
let's not and say we did, ok? *g* 
 
 
 
 
>>i guess hero's as wheaty as they get!! 
> 
>Wheaties, the BREAKFAST OF CHAMPIONS! Nuff said! 
> 
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
>else's house?" 
>-NHS #56 
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>John D. Prins 
>jprins@interhop.net 
> 
> 
> 
> 
 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 21:10:33 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden 
Subject: RE: Powers that step on other powers' toes (was Re: More Than   M 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 6 Jul 1997, John P Weatherman wrote: 
 
> Resurrection can NOT be done with Summon. 
 
Can, has, should. 
 
> Summon can only call a preexisting creature of a generic type from one 
> location (possibly another plane) to the users location. 
 
Whether the creature is being created or already existed and is being 
called is entirely a special effects issue; it doesn't affect the game 
mechanics at all. 
 
> This kills the resurrection construct on two grounds.   
> First, a specific individual needs to be resurrected, not simply a member 
> of a generic class. 
 
I addressed this in the "More than Meets the Eye" thread. You aren't 
buying "Summon Bob", you're buying "Summon dead person"... that's not a 
specific person, so it's fine. 
 
> Secondly, even if you COULD target a specific individual (with GM  
> permission) a spirit would appear, since that individual is dead. 
 
The type of creature that appears is decided when you buy the Summon. 
"Summon spirits of the dead" is perfectly legal, of course, but it's not 
the only option. 
 
> Finally, I'd have to say resurrection is, in general, extremely  
> appropriate to fantasy campaigns than any other.  Every Fantasy system 
> I've ever seen has this spell, 
 
Ars Magica doesn't; neither does Fantasy Hero, for that matter. The only 
system I've seen that does is xD&D. (The fact that it's in D&D should show 
you right there how inappropriate it is for fantasy.:)) 
 
> usually marked with the equivalent of a stop sign to be sure, as  
> calling the dead back from the great beyond is part and parcel of fantasy... 
 
As a _spell_? I can't think of any in-genre examples where raising the 
dead is accomplished by casting a spell, rather than being an event of 
mythic significance (what gamers call a "GM's Plot Device"). The closest I 
can think of is the myth of Aesclypius. 
 
 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 10:12:00 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: HAPPYELF!!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>Actually, it seems like Horror inverses the formula -- I don't think =Beyond 
>the Supernatural= ever really took off, and it has to be the candiest game 
>of that genre around, whereas in Cthulhu, people seem to gravitate to the 
>most mundane sorts of characters possible and live it up like it was 
>Hackmaster.  Maybe it has to do with the inherent "crush me like a grape" 
>kind of masochism required to get into horror in the first place. 
> 
 
 
good point: i played beyond, and it only worked when i got po'd and told my players: 
 
"ok, strap down 'cause i'm gonna kill the lot of ya 
!!" 
 
 
 
 
 
 
>-- 
>Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
>+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
>| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
>+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
>   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
> 
> 
 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 21:12:02 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden 
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 6 Jul 1997, Earl Kwallek wrote: 
 
> >> Can I have this power: Summon, my friends healthy and hale, max 250 active 
> >> points, 80 AP cost? 
> > 
> >No, and I don't really see the relevance. 
>  
> 	But, according to your first answer, it is perfectly legal and 
> reasonable. 
 
What? What are you talking about? What connection do you see between 
"Summon beings who I have a statue representing" and "Summon healthy 
friends"? 
 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 21:14:37 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden 
Reply-To: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: More Than Meets The Eye 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 6 Jul 1997, John P Weatherman wrote: 
 
> "A character with this Standard Power can summon a creature from the  
> abyss, another dimension, or somewhere on earth." 
>  
> This doesn't seem to mesh with any kind of an "undo transform effect".   
 
And "A character with [Stretching] can stretch parts of his body", but 
that doesn't mean you can't use it to represent Dr. Octopus' arms or a 
pole-arm. Saying that a Power can do something is hardly the same thing as 
saying that it can't do anything else. 
 
Besides, nobody is saying that Summon _can_ be used specifically to undo 
Transforms. 
 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:51:57 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Rifts -- HERO ruminations (was: Golden Age Mystery Men) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>> rifts is very original stuff: better than torg by a long way, and  
>>> extremly well supported- or is that a deffinition of brain candy too? 
>> 
>>First of all, a lot of it isn't that original 
 
>u-huh? and mechanics is what counts? well, in that case, hero's the least 
original game ever!  
 
Actually, mechanics counts for a LOT. I gave up on Rifts because every damn 
suppliment forced me to deal with another ENTIRE magic system, three dozen 
'new' OCC/RCCs that are virtually the same as the last three dozen, and the 
six page writeups for JUST the stats on thier machines. 
 
>>I'd gladly trade half of =Rifts='s "originality" for a healthy dose of 
>>working game mechanics and/or balance. 
 
Anyway, I made a half-hearted attempt at converting Rifts to HERO. Here's 
what happens to the SAMAS power armor in HERO terms (point costs ignored, 
and it's a vehicle): 
 
All power armor got: Nuclear Power (15-20 year fuel supply), Radar Sense 360 
degrees, +4 Telescopic PER with Sight, High Range Radio Hearing, +6 vs. All 
Range Mods, +2 OCV at Range, Life Support: Safe in all environments, Self 
Contained Breathing (8 hours, unlimited filtering), a dumb computer with 10 
INT, 10 DEX and 2 SPD (Systems Operation 11- Navigation 11-, KS: Power Armor 
(itself) 11-), and 25% Resistant Physical and Energy Damage Reduction 
(basically, this 25% is the damage that's passed on to the pilot). 
 
Coalition SAMAS Power Armor 
 
STR   35 
BODY  20 
Size  200kg 
DEF   20     (note: Heavy Dead Boy armor was DEF 12) 
DEX   20 
SPD    4 
KB   -1" 
DCV   -0 
Running: 10", x4 NCV total (96kph) 
Flying: 25", x8 NCV total (480kph), 150m ceiling 
Leaping: 6", x4 NCV total (48m) 
Weapons: 
C-40R SAMAS Rail Gun: +1 OCV, +2 vs. RMod, 5D6 RKA (physical), Autofire 15, 
1D6-1 StunX, 2000 charges. Effective Range: 1875" (3750m) 
CM-2 Rocket Launcher: Loading 2 mini-missiles, typically plasma (+2 OCV, +4 
vs. RMod, 6D6 RKA (energy), 1D6 StunX, x5 Range, Explosive) 
Special Systems: IR Vision, UV Vision, +4 vs. Darkness PER Penalties 
(nightscope), Sight Flash Defense (5 pips), +6 Telescopic Sight PER 
(replaces above +4). 
 
Of course, you may not agree with some of my conventions - standard laser 
rifle is a 3D6+1 RKA (4D6 MDC) and most body armor hovered between 8 and 12 
DEF. I wanted to keep the game deadly - railguns were _hell_ on body armored 
infantry, but you were more likely to knock out the opposition in power 
armor than kill him (STUN transference rules passed a lot of STUN to the 
pilot from an attack). In Rifts, the mechanics didn't allow for this - to 
take out the pilot, you had to destroy the machine. 
 
I had a (gasp!) unified magic system - mostly power pools powered by an END 
Reserve. The limitations on the VPP shaped what you could do with the magic, 
as did the power level. Big spells could be bought separately as a heavily 
limited ritual (IIRC, opening a 'Rift' was a 28 'real' cost spell). Most 
characters could be built on 250 points - though equipment was free.  
 
Rifts is a great setting, but it deserves better mechanics (it's a hell of a 
lot of work, though, I gave up on the conversion, eventually...). 
 
Oh, those of you wondering, the Glitter Boy was 50 BODY, 31 DEF, 75% 
Resistant to Lasers, and used a VERY SCARY 12D6 RKA, AE: One Hex weapon. It 
could actually attack true robot vehicles with a chance of victory (I wanted 
a clear separation of power levels between infantry, power armor and robot 
vehicles, for the most part). 
 
Those of you interested in my aborted conversion, check Rifts web pages out 
there. I handed out what I had a while ago, and some folks may have posted 
them to various pages (I can't say for sure, but check before you ask me for 
my notes...). 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 10:55:47 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: HAPPYELF!!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Brain Candy & Gaming 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> 
>  In short, to paraphrase a buddy of mine "More power = less roleplaying", 
>this doesn't have to be true, but too often it is 
> 
> 
> 
 
 
yes, but ofte it's true because we don't try to roleplay powerful characters-  
so only the candy patrol does it. we, (especially gm's) copp out of the different chalenges higher power levels represent 
 
 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 21:08:03 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, HAPPYELF!!! wrote: 
 
> *sigh* now were into reality? what the hell? ok, how do you explain chuthulu? 
> mass halucination? dinosaur? big piece of fungus? 
 
The who idea is that you *can't* explain Cthulhu.  You can't even fight 
him or affect him in any physcial manner.  He's beyond the realm of human 
comprehension.  Thus, there is no real reason to reality check Cthulhu 
because Lovecraft specificly states that he (amd the rest of the mythos)  
is beyond such things.  
 
Rifts, OTOH, trys to represent things with some sort of factual basis, 
which (it looks like) falls apart quickly with any serious examination. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 21:28:25 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Indiana Jones, Rifts, what sells, and other off topic stuff... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>>what bells and wistles? 
>> 
>>Hmm. I wish you'd be a little clearer what you're referring to.  
 
>i meant star wars- not many bells and whistles i can see. .  
 
Huh? What happened to the Force? Lightsabers? Aliens? Starships? R2-D2's, 
which come _equipped_ with bells and whistle soundtracks? ;-) 
 
>>Anyway, COC sells more to the 'older' gaming market (20+). That's the 
>>'confirmed' gamer territory - people who won't 'give up' gaming as 'some 
>>childish pursuit' (you've met people out there..."Oh, I used to play 
>>D&D...when I was a teenager..."). These are the dedicated fans who are both 
>>loyal and have the free cash to keep something like COC a profitable venture. 
 
>yes, and that is the only real market- because the unrealiability of the  
>'bells and whistles' group, and hence the rejection of the 'bells and 
whistles' >marketing theory (i promise notto use that phrase ever agiain) 
 
But if you've got a product that won't sell to the loyal gaming group (bad 
premise, bad mechanics, etc.) and has no 'bells and whistles', it should be 
no suprise that it does not sell. Quality sells (usually). Bells and 
Whistles sells (usually). But lack of both tends to not sell, and not work 
very well if it does sell - leading to bad word of mouth, and no future sales. 
 
>once again, you are not doing these games credit- they are simply more 
common >genre's, 
>and rifts is not even that. i think you should define what you mean by. .  
>*sorry* 
>"bells and whistles" -  
 
Stuff you don't find 'in real life'. Super powers. Aliens. Magic. High Tech. 
The Supernatural. All the IJ movies only had this stuff as 'Deux ex Machina' 
style plot devices (wow, there's a redundant statement). So we're talking 
strictly pulp style action here. If this is going to sell, it had better 
have two things - really good mechanics, and really good background 
information (something TSR is not famous for...). 
 
Rifts, by comparison, admittedly has really good background (though the 
mechanics BLOW, this from a guy with 15+ Rifts books on his shelf - hey, I 
don't smoke or drink, so Rifts is my vice, my guilty pleasure...) and lots 
of 'bells and whistles' (hell, it's the most bells and whistles game I've 
ever seen!). 2 out of 3 ain't bad, so no wonder it sells. 
 
>>>made to order rules? this is hero! useing that logic, none of us should  
>>>need to by anything but the bbb!  
>> 
>>That's right, none of us _NEED_ anything more than the BBB. All the other 
>>books are settings and 'idea' sourcebooks. The only real thing the UMA 
>>offers is the 'build martial arts maneuvers' stuff. Everything else is pure 
>>fluff. That doesn't mean it isn't useful, but you can run a perfectly good 
>>martial arts campaign on the BBB alone. 
 
>yes, but by need i mean 'has signifigant possible requirement' and  
>what about story? and ideas? current market trend siggests those things are 
>very important to players.  
 
Yeah, possibly because people are becoming less literate thanks to TV and 
video/computer games (oh, boy, this should start a flamewar...). What I mean 
is, you can find all these tons of ideas in standard literature just as 
easily as RPG sourcebooks. At best, sourcebooks are there to 'save time' for 
the GM. 
 
>>>Hey, I own a LOT of Rifts stuff, and yes, there are plenty of original, good 
>>ideas there. But let's face it. The rules are unrealistic, and many of the 
>>settings are _heavily_ contrived. For example, would the Coalition _really_ 
>>be stupid enough to not want as many Glitter Boy suits as Free Quebec could 
>>manufacture? Why didn't the Coalition have supersonic jets until the 
>>Mercinary Sourcebook?  
 
>*sigh* now were into reality? what the hell? 
 
No, reality can take a flying leap as far as I'm concerned. I'm talking 
_consistancy_. If I can build a laser rifle that does 4D6 MDC (Coalition 
C-12), and is autofire capable, why in the hell doesn't the laser cannon on 
my robot (Coalition Enforcer, Spider Skull Walker) vehicle have that very 
same autofire capability? It's hooked up to a freaking nuclear generator! 
 
Why do militaries use the short range missiles at all? Mini-missiles do 
comparable damage, are far cheaper and more compact, and when do you need 
more than a mile of range (if you do, use a medium range missile...). 
 
How come weapons that are many times bigger (Spider Skull railguns) do only 
twice the damage as puny power armor guns (SAMAS railgun)? 
 
How come it's possible to build robots to human scale dimensions, but you 
can't build MDC prosthetics to human scales? It's the arbitrary 
inconsistancies like this in Rifts that drives me crazy... 
 
Oh yeah...if MOM tech is nanotechnology that's implanted in the brain, how 
come they've got all these external 'canister' things sticking out of their 
heads? Hardly seems nanotech to me...;-). 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 21:28:35 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Filksinger wrote: 
> 
>> Agreed. Indirect should cover, "My aerodynamic shurikens can go  
>> around corners" and "The wall doesn't stop my grenade, because I can  
>> throw it over the wall" at a rock bottom minimum, both of which are  
>> forbidden by the rules, and which Indirect doesn't quite cover. 
> 
>These can be done simply enough with Indirect with a Limitation "not 
>through complete enclosure", no? 
 
Yeah, but it would be nice to have as just a +1/4 'non-linear trajectory' 
advantage or somesuch rather than a limited advantage... 
 
Hmm...+1/4 'Parabolic Trajectory' advantage...good for mortars, grenades, 
shurikens and boomerangs (handwaving required ;-). 
 
 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 11:54:46 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: HAPPYELF!!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Rifts -- HERO ruminations (was: Golden Age Mystery Men) 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:51 PM 7/8/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>>>> rifts is very original stuff: better than torg by a long way, and  
>>>> extremly well supported- or is that a deffinition of brain candy too? 
>>> 
>>>First of all, a lot of it isn't that original 
> 
>>u-huh? and mechanics is what counts? well, in that case, hero's the least 
>original game ever!  
> 
>Actually, mechanics counts for a LOT. I gave up on Rifts because every damn 
>suppliment forced me to deal with another ENTIRE magic system, three dozen 
>'new' OCC/RCCs that are virtually the same as the last three dozen, and the 
>six page writeups for JUST the stats on thier machines. 
> 
 
 
 
so? once again- you've got hero, why use that junk at all?  
and stuff like that is an aquired taste. .. .aparently. ..  
 
 
 
>>>I'd gladly trade half of =Rifts='s "originality" for a healthy dose of 
>>>working game mechanics and/or balance. 
> 
>Anyway, I made a half-hearted attempt at converting Rifts to HERO. Here's 
>what happens to the SAMAS power armor in HERO terms (point costs ignored, 
>and it's a vehicle): 
> 
 
(ect)  
 
 
ahhhh, see! yes the seting is good- and hence it's valid to by it, yes?  
 
 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 11:56:53 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: HAPPYELF!!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:08 PM 7/8/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, HAPPYELF!!! wrote: 
> 
>> *sigh* now were into reality? what the hell? ok, how do you explain chuthulu? 
>> mass halucination? dinosaur? big piece of fungus? 
> 
>The who idea is that you *can't* explain Cthulhu.  You can't even fight 
>him or affect him in any physcial manner.  He's beyond the realm of human 
>comprehension.  Thus, there is no real reason to reality check Cthulhu 
>because Lovecraft specificly states that he (amd the rest of the mythos)  
>is beyond such things.  
> 
 
ok, how about those hybrid dudes? and the rest of it? 
 
 
 
 
>Rifts, OTOH, trys to represent things with some sort of factual basis, 
>which (it looks like) falls apart quickly with any serious examination. 
> 
 
and how about super-tech? more convincing? i don't think so! 
 
 
 
 
>*************************************************************************** 
>* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
>*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
>*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
>* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
>*************************************************************************** 
> 
> 
 
 
and how about this god of destruc- oh, forget it *bdjk* 
 
 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 12:46:04 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: HAPPYELF!!! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Indiana Jones, Rifts, what sells, and other off topic stuff... 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>But if you've got a product that won't sell to the loyal gaming group (bad 
>premise, bad mechanics, etc.) and has no 'bells and whistles', it should be 
>no suprise that it does not sell. Quality sells (usually). Bells and 
>Whistles sells (usually). But lack of both tends to not sell, and not work 
>very well if it does sell - leading to bad word of mouth, and no future sales. 
> 
 
yes, but that's verging on specious reasoning- just because something  
works, doesn;t mean the appeal is vital, or even universal-  
 
>>"bells and whistles" -  
> 
>Stuff you don't find 'in real life'. Super powers. Aliens. Magic. High Tech. 
>The Supernatural. All the IJ movies only had this stuff as 'Deux ex Machina' 
>style plot devices (wow, there's a redundant statement). So we're talking 
>strictly pulp style action here. If this is going to sell, it had better 
>have two things - really good mechanics, and really good background 
>information (something TSR is not famous for...). 
> 
 
 
yes? so, is that impossible to manufacture? 
 
 
 
>Rifts, by comparison, admittedly has really good background (though the 
>mechanics BLOW, this from a guy with 15+ Rifts books on his shelf - hey, I 
>don't smoke or drink, so Rifts is my vice, my guilty pleasure...) and lots 
>of 'bells and whistles' (hell, it's the most bells and whistles game I've 
>ever seen!). 2 out of 3 ain't bad, so no wonder it sells. 
> 
 
yes- so once again, it's not just 'head candy' is it? just because it included such 
elements, doesn't mean there's not something valid in there as well.  
 
 
 
 
 
>>>>made to order rules? this is hero! useing that logic, none of us should  
>>>>need to by anything but the bbb!  
>>> 
>>>That's right, none of us _NEED_ anything more than the BBB. All the other 
>>>books are settings and 'idea' sourcebooks. The only real thing the UMA 
>>>offers is the 'build martial arts maneuvers' stuff. Everything else is pure 
>>>fluff. That doesn't mean it isn't useful, but you can run a perfectly good 
>>>martial arts campaign on the BBB alone. 
> 
>>yes, but by need i mean 'has signifigant possible requirement' and  
>>what about story? and ideas? current market trend siggests those things are 
>>very important to players.  
> 
>Yeah, possibly because people are becoming less literate thanks to TV and 
>video/computer games (oh, boy, this should start a flamewar...). What I mean 
>is, you can find all these tons of ideas in standard literature just as 
>easily as RPG sourcebooks. At best, sourcebooks are there to 'save time' for 
>the GM. 
> 
 
 
yes, but does it really fit? this is an old argument- i don't believe literature ect  
is that good a source- things game resources take into account- a team of  
starting supers of normal power, for instance, are not as relevant/common in 
other types of literature/comics, ect. . though that's about the worst example i could have possibly come up with. *l* 
 
 
 
 
 
>>>>Hey, I own a LOT of Rifts stuff, and yes, there are plenty of original, good 
>>>ideas there. But let's face it. The rules are unrealistic, and many of the 
>>>settings are _heavily_ contrived. For example, would the Coalition _really_ 
>>>be stupid enough to not want as many Glitter Boy suits as Free Quebec could 
>>>manufacture? Why didn't the Coalition have supersonic jets until the 
>>>Mercinary Sourcebook?  
> 
>>*sigh* now were into reality? what the hell? 
> 
>No, reality can take a flying leap as far as I'm concerned. I'm talking 
>_consistancy_. If I can build a laser rifle that does 4D6 MDC (Coalition 
>C-12), and is autofire capable, why in the hell doesn't the laser cannon on 
>my robot (Coalition Enforcer, Spider Skull Walker) vehicle have that very 
>same autofire capability? It's hooked up to a freaking nuclear generator! 
> 
 
 
it's a matter of perspective, and again, reality. so what? 
your probably talking about a harmonic phase-variance, which would  
*lol* obvoiusly cause the differences in damage and performance- it's all about  
energy frequencies in relation to the target substance.  *l*  
 
 
 
>Why do militaries use the short range missiles at all? Mini-missiles do 
>comparable damage, are far cheaper and more compact, and when do you need 
>more than a mile of range (if you do, use a medium range missile...). 
> 
 
why did the british have horses in WW2?  
 
 
>How come weapons that are many times bigger (Spider Skull railguns) do only 
>twice the damage as puny power armor guns (SAMAS railgun)? 
> 
 
*shrug* maybe it just sucks. 
 
 
 
 
>How come it's possible to build robots to human scale dimensions, but you 
>can't build MDC prosthetics to human scales? It's the arbitrary 
>inconsistancies like this in Rifts that drives me crazy... 
> 
 
well, wouldn't that kinda rip the poor guy to pieces the first time he took a hit?  
MDC is always sealed. . no gaps. . u read  cp2020 rules? 
 
 
>Oh yeah...if MOM tech is nanotechnology that's implanted in the brain, how 
>come they've got all these external 'canister' things sticking out of their 
>heads? Hardly seems nanotech to me...;-). 
> 
 
 
well, it's actuall just put on to impress the CP players *l* 
 
 
 
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
>else's house?" 
>-NHS #56 
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>John D. Prins 
>jprins@interhop.net 
> 
> 
> 
> 
 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:55:11 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net 
From: Kim Foster <nexus@UKY.CAMPUS.MCI.NET> 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
>Not that I belive that the comparison between Stretching and Running is 
>valid; it is not.  The two are different types of powers and such 
>comparison is bogus. 
 
You brought up the point that ANY power that allowed you to ignore a wall or 
obstacle had to be brought as indirect. I pointed out a little hole in that 
idea. If you're view on stretching is correct then practically every 
character with it has it Indirect at some level. The only one that spring to 
mind that has "base" stretching is Machine Man,who I think could extend his 
limbs straight line.  
	What sick person put an "S" in lisp? 
 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:56:26 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, HAPPYELF!!! wrote: 
 
> >> *sigh* now were into reality? what the hell? ok, how do you explain chuthulu? 
> >> mass halucination? dinosaur? big piece of fungus? 
> > 
> >The whole idea is that you *can't* explain Cthulhu.  You can't even fight 
> >him or affect him in any physcial manner.  He's beyond the realm of human 
> >comprehension.  Thus, there is no real reason to reality check Cthulhu 
> >because Lovecraft specificly states that he (amd the rest of the mythos)  
> >is beyond such things.  
> > 
>  
> ok, how about those hybrid dudes? and the rest of it? 
 
What hybrids?  Deep Ones?  And what "rest of it"?  Look at the last 
sentence in my post again.  The Cthulhu mythos is specifically designed to 
beyond the realm of human science.  By making statements like "creature X 
is composed of non-terrestial matter" the author can bypass certain 
reality checks (like the size of some of these creatures).  Instead of 
trying to explain the 'whys' in CoC, CoC simply gives on the 'whats' and 
lets the Keeper go from there.  (Note: I have never played CoC, but like 
John Prins and his Rifts addiction, I own a copy of the 3rd Ed rules 
because 1: it makes for good source material and 2: I got it for like 
$5.00 at a used game store.)  The book presents the universe in a 'this is 
the way it is, deal with it' manner and encourages the Keeper to fill in 
and add more (since the mythos is *very* adaptable to new material).   
 
> >Rifts, OTOH, trys to represent things with some sort of factual basis, 
> >which (it looks like) falls apart quickly with any serious examination. 
>  
> and how about super-tech? more convincing? i don't think so! 
 
Depends.  When dealing with supertech, one should try and do for the Star 
Terk approach.  Use just enough real science to make it sound sorta 
plausible and then wing it from there.  In fact, a betterwhy is the Star 
Wars method.  *Don't* try and explain it, just present it.  But, in either 
case, a healthy does of common sense is needed.  If your man-sized powered 
armor suit has a weapon that does 'x'-dice of damage, then it only makes 
sense that the weapon mounted in your bus-sized mecha does that much 
*more* damage.  Some one cannot wear a 12' suit of armor like a set of 
clothing.  One would have to pilot it from a certain location (so, no, 
damage that gets through the arm armor of a Glitter Boy shouldn't affect 
the *pilot's* arm).  I happen to own exactly *one* Rifts book.  Rifts 
Japan, and I bought that for the artwork. (Pgs 81 and 205 come to mind 
immedietly).  Personally, I thought a lot of the Rifts stuff seemed a bit 
silly, if not overly complicated (just how many *different* things do 
that have running around in that universe?) 
 
> >* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
>  
> and how about this god of destruc- oh, forget it *bdjk* 
 
It's a quote.  From Shirow Masamune's manga series "Orion".  Geeze, don't 
get yer panties in an uproar and calm down why don't ya. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:20:11 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Rifts -- HERO ruminations (was: Golden Age Mystery Men) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 1 
 
>>>>I'd gladly trade half of =Rifts='s "originality" for a healthy dose of 
>>>>working game mechanics and/or balance. 
>> 
>>Anyway, I made a half-hearted attempt at converting Rifts to HERO. Here's 
>>what happens to the SAMAS power armor in HERO terms (point costs ignored, 
>>and it's a vehicle): 
 
>ahhhh, see! yes the seting is good- and hence it's valid to by it, yes?  
 
Well, the setting is good, but only with a quite a bit of tweaking, IMHO. 
For every two good ideas there's a crappy one, as well (Rifts Underseas and 
Rifts Japan really did it to me...all sorts of dumbness in these two books, 
not to mention the _wretched_ power armor designs...yuk!). 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 00:02:59 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Indiana Jones, Rifts, what sells, and other off topic stuff... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 2 
 
>>Stuff you don't find 'in real life'. Super powers. Aliens. Magic. High Tech. 
>>The Supernatural. All the IJ movies only had this stuff as 'Deux ex Machina' 
>>style plot devices (wow, there's a redundant statement). So we're talking 
>>strictly pulp style action here. If this is going to sell, it had better 
>>have two things - really good mechanics, and really good background 
>>information (something TSR is not famous for...). 
 
>yes? so, is that impossible to manufacture? 
 
No, but TSR seems to be incapable of it...the IJ game didn't work, after all... 
 
>>Rifts, by comparison, admittedly has really good background (though the 
>>mechanics BLOW, this from a guy with 15+ Rifts books on his shelf - hey, I 
>>don't smoke or drink, so Rifts is my vice, my guilty pleasure...) and lots 
>>of 'bells and whistles' (hell, it's the most bells and whistles game I've 
>>ever seen!). 2 out of 3 ain't bad, so no wonder it sells. 
>> 
>yes- so once again, it's not just 'head candy' is it? just because it 
included >such elements, doesn't mean there's not something valid in there 
as well.  
 
Define validity in this context. And since when did I say that 'head candy' 
was worthless? Rifts is brain candy; by this I mean it's a 
style-before-substance game. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but when 
the game system lacks any sort of well-thought mechanics, it detracts from 
the game itself (frustration with rules can kill a game). 
 
The thing is, the Palladium rules system _can_ work just fine! I own the 
Palladium FRP (along w/ The Old Ones, On The High Seas, and Monsters and 
Animals), and as a fantasy system, it works fine! Why? Because pains were 
taken to create a balanced system right from the start (each magic user 
class has its own unique appeal - where as in Rifts it gets blurry and 
confusing) and they never went amok with new character classes and magic 
types (don't have the more recent books, so this may have changed). 
 
But, with Rifts, rules are constantly being added, along with new powers and 
abilities, with no eye to game balance, or logic, symetry or consistancy. 
It's a so-called multi-genre game system that lacks internal, universal 
principles (like: 1 PPE can create this much effect, no matter what magic is 
being used - never mind that many will have magic powers that work sans 
PPE...). HERO has the Character Points to keep things in line, as does GURPS. 
 
But...I digress. Rifts is 'brain candy' because it sacrifices almost _all_ 
substance in the name of style. It can be fun for a short while, but an all 
sugar diet doesn't satisfy... 
 
>>Yeah, possibly because people are becoming less literate thanks to TV and 
>>video/computer games (oh, boy, this should start a flamewar...). What I mean 
>>is, you can find all these tons of ideas in standard literature just as 
>>easily as RPG sourcebooks. At best, sourcebooks are there to 'save time' for 
>>the GM. 
> 
>yes, but does it really fit? this is an old argument- i don't believe 
>literature ect  
>is that good a source- things game resources take into account- a team of  
>starting supers of normal power, for instance, are not as relevant/common in 
>other types of literature/comics, ect. . though that's about the worst 
example i could have possibly come up with. *l* 
 
Indeed. A lot of Super teams do start out at very diverse power levels, but 
then a group of 250 point characters could very well do the same - if you 
only look at combat potential. Character points aren't a perfect modeling 
tool - a 250 point combat monster will wipe the floor with a 500 point 
scholar type, after all. 
 
>>No, reality can take a flying leap as far as I'm concerned. I'm talking 
>>_consistancy_. If I can build a laser rifle that does 4D6 MDC (Coalition 
>>C-12), and is autofire capable, why in the hell doesn't the laser cannon on 
>>my robot (Coalition Enforcer, Spider Skull Walker) vehicle have that very 
>>same autofire capability? It's hooked up to a freaking nuclear generator! 
 
>it's a matter of perspective, and again, reality. so what? 
>your probably talking about a harmonic phase-variance, which would  
>*lol* obvoiusly cause the differences in damage and performance- it's all 
about  
>energy frequencies in relation to the target substance.  *l*  
 
So your argument is 'ha-ha, so what'? If you could mount autofire lasers on 
those robots, why wouldn't you? Are Coalition engineers that colossaly dumb? 
Let's face it - the Rifts system is 'kludged' for infantry survival, at the 
sacrifice of a great deal of logic. Suspension of disbelief only goes so far... 
 
>>Why do militaries use the short range missiles at all? Mini-missiles do 
>>comparable damage, are far cheaper and more compact, and when do you need 
>>more than a mile of range (if you do, use a medium range missile...). 
 
>why did the british have horses in WW2?  
 
Because they _had_ horses, and a horse will still get you around powered 
only by water and grass. Does the British army still use horses in the field 
today? Probably not. Why? Because they've got something that works better. 
 
>>How come weapons that are many times bigger (Spider Skull railguns) do only 
>>twice the damage as puny power armor guns (SAMAS railgun)? 
 
>*shrug* maybe it just sucks. 
 
And how. 
 
>>How come it's possible to build robots to human scale dimensions, but you 
>>can't build MDC prosthetics to human scales? It's the arbitrary 
>>inconsistancies like this in Rifts that drives me crazy... 
 
>well, wouldn't that kinda rip the poor guy to pieces the first time he took 
a hit?  
>MDC is always sealed. . no gaps. . u read  cp2020 rules? 
 
Why would it? Sure, enough damage would tear the MDC arm out of its fleshy 
moorings. But how is that any different from a SDC prosthetic arm? Why build 
an easily damaged SDC arm when you can just as easily build it out of MDC 
material (and believe me, if you can make lightweight MDC body armor, MDC 
human-scale prosthetics should be a snap). SDC steel is still tougher than 
human flesh, so will tear out of the flesh under stress anyways. Why not use 
MDC material and have dent-proof, wear-proof arms?  
 
>>Oh yeah...if MOM tech is nanotechnology that's implanted in the brain, how 
>>come they've got all these external 'canister' things sticking out of their 
>>heads? Hardly seems nanotech to me...;-). 
 
>well, it's actuall just put on to impress the CP players *l* 
 
Hell, I thought MOM tech would be more impressive if you couldn't spot the 
boxes... 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 00:45:32 -0500 
From: Joel Vallejo <jvallejo@bellsouth.net> 
Reply-To: jvallejo@bellsouth.net 
Subject: Re: Request for Super-Speed Tricks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 5 
 
Earl Kwallek wrote: 
>  
> Hey Guys, 
>  
>   I recently began updating some of the characters from my old (1st & 2nd 
> edition) Champions campaigns... 
>  
>   However I noticed that many of these characters no longer fit my 
> conceptions of how the game should be played... specifically not all 
> super-speedsters should have a 12 Spd. 
>  
>   This leads indirectly (+1 advantage level) to a request: 
>  
>   Please post any "Super-speed" tricks (w/Game mechanics) that you have 
 
 
I like to link TK with Running, no fine manipulation, to simulate the 
old superspeed whirlwind.  Or how about building the Speedster with 
Flight, limited to a few inches over surfaces.  This way your speedster 
can run up walls, over water, etc.  But you may want to buy off the turn 
mode. 
 
Joel Vallejo 
Justice, Like Lightning 
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/8456/index.html 
 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 00:57:15 -0500 
From: Joel Vallejo <jvallejo@bellsouth.net> 
Reply-To: jvallejo@bellsouth.net 
Subject: Big Brother is Watching 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 6 
 
I am trying to create a character like Xero, from DC Comics, who has 
link up with a supercomputer through an orbiting satellite that allows 
him to identify certain targets and get instant information about them. 
Of course, info would be limited to what would be in a computer 
database, presumably a Federal one.  Presumably the computer could also 
access other computers for info.  I was wondering if anyone had any 
ideas on how to build this type of computer link.  I think I remember 
seeing something like this in Enemies for Hire, but I don't have that 
book with me.  I would appreciate any comments. 
 
Thanks,  
 
Joel Vallejo 
Justice, Like Lightning 
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/8456/index.html 
 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 16:24:49 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Indiana Jones, Rifts, what sells, and other off topic stuff... 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 7 
 
At 12:02 AM 7/9/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>>>Stuff you don't find 'in real life'. Super powers. Aliens. Magic. High Tech. 
>>>The Supernatural. All the IJ movies only had this stuff as 'Deux ex Machina' 
>>>style plot devices (wow, there's a redundant statement). So we're talking 
>>>strictly pulp style action here. If this is going to sell, it had better 
>>>have two things - really good mechanics, and really good background 
>>>information (something TSR is not famous for...). 
> 
>>yes? so, is that impossible to manufacture? 
> 
>No, but TSR seems to be incapable of it...the IJ game didn't work, after all... 
> 
 
what about bad luck? nah, yer right. . . .  
 
>>yes- so once again, it's not just 'head candy' is it? just because it 
>included >such elements, doesn't mean there's not something valid in there 
>as well.  
> 
>Define validity in this context. And since when did I say that 'head candy' 
>was worthless? Rifts is brain candy; by this I mean it's a 
>style-before-substance game. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but when 
>the game system lacks any sort of well-thought mechanics, it detracts from 
>the game itself (frustration with rules can kill a game). 
> 
 
 
it's valid in that you can use it, any way, and get value for money. and  
by those standards, braing candy is white wolf, and cuthulu, and all movies. 
. .. *lol* 
and it's up to the individual to define what's bad mechanics- 
some people say hero's complex! *lol*  
 
 
>The thing is, the Palladium rules system _can_ work just fine! I own the 
>Palladium FRP (along w/ The Old Ones, On The High Seas, and Monsters and 
>Animals), and as a fantasy system, it works fine! Why? Because pains were 
>taken to create a balanced system right from the start (each magic user 
>class has its own unique appeal - where as in Rifts it gets blurry and 
>confusing) and they never went amok with new character classes and magic 
>types (don't have the more recent books, so this may have changed). 
> 
 
well, it must be fun! i can see the appeal: it's kinda the exact opposite  
of the hero approach. .  
 
 
 
>But, with Rifts, rules are constantly being added, along with new powers and 
>abilities, with no eye to game balance, or logic, symetry or consistancy. 
>It's a so-called multi-genre game system that lacks internal, universal 
>principles (like: 1 PPE can create this much effect, no matter what magic is 
>being used - never mind that many will have magic powers that work sans 
>PPE...). HERO has the Character Points to keep things in line, as does GURPS. 
> 
 
like i said- the two ways of doing stuff are worlds apart. .  
 
 
 
>But...I digress. Rifts is 'brain candy' because it sacrifices almost _all_ 
>substance in the name of style. It can be fun for a short while, but an all 
>sugar diet doesn't satisfy... 
> 
 
it's up to the gm and players to put in substance. as i said before,  
just because someone doesn't patronise the cliche "substantial' subjects 
like religion,  
doesn't mean their games aren't substantial, and more original, ,to boot!  
 
 
>>yes, but does it really fit? this is an old argument- i don't believe 
>>literature ect  
>>is that good a source- things game resources take into account- a team of  
>>starting supers of normal power, for instance, are not as relevant/common in 
>>other types of literature/comics, ect. . though that's about the worst 
>example i could have possibly come up with. *l* 
> 
>Indeed. A lot of Super teams do start out at very diverse power levels, but 
>then a group of 250 point characters could very well do the same - if you 
>only look at combat potential. Character points aren't a perfect modeling 
>tool - a 250 point combat monster will wipe the floor with a 500 point 
>scholar type, after all. 
> 
 
ass it should be! it's not just combat, of course. . .  
 
 
 
>>>No, reality can take a flying leap as far as I'm concerned. I'm talking 
>>>_consistancy_. If I can build a laser rifle that does 4D6 MDC (Coalition 
>>>C-12), and is autofire capable, why in the hell doesn't the laser cannon on 
>>>my robot (Coalition Enforcer, Spider Skull Walker) vehicle have that very 
>>>same autofire capability? It's hooked up to a freaking nuclear generator! 
> 
>>it's a matter of perspective, and again, reality. so what? 
>>your probably talking about a harmonic phase-variance, which would  
>>*lol* obvoiusly cause the differences in damage and performance- it's all 
>about  
>>energy frequencies in relation to the target substance.  *l*  
> 
>So your argument is 'ha-ha, so what'? If you could mount autofire lasers on 
>those robots, why wouldn't you? Are Coalition engineers that colossaly dumb? 
>Let's face it - the Rifts system is 'kludged' for infantry survival, at the 
>sacrifice of a great deal of logic. Suspension of disbelief only goes so far... 
> 
 
i'd say this isn't nearly as far as say. . . . how could the MAGE technomancy  
counquer the world, when at some point at least, the non-tech spiritualists  
massively outnumbered the european colonists?  
and don't even get me started about star trek. .  
once again. . . it';s relative to tastes.  
 
> 
>>why did the british have horses in WW2?  
> 
>Because they _had_ horses, and a horse will still get you around powered 
>only by water and grass. Does the British army still use horses in the field 
>today? Probably not. Why? Because they've got something that works better. 
> 
 
no, they had something better back then: they kept them 'cause the were 
feudal-obsessed twonks.  
 
 
>>>How come it's possible to build robots to human scale dimensions, but you 
>>>can't build MDC prosthetics to human scales? It's the arbitrary 
>>>inconsistancies like this in Rifts that drives me crazy... 
> 
>>well, wouldn't that kinda rip the poor guy to pieces the first time he took 
>a hit?  
>>MDC is always sealed. . no gaps. . u read  cp2020 rules? 
> 
>Why would it? Sure, enough damage would tear the MDC arm out of its fleshy 
>moorings. But how is that any different from a SDC prosthetic arm? Why build 
>an easily damaged SDC arm when you can just as easily build it out of MDC 
>material (and believe me, if you can make lightweight MDC body armor, MDC 
>human-scale prosthetics should be a snap). SDC steel is still tougher than 
>human flesh, so will tear out of the flesh under stress anyways. Why not use 
>MDC material and have dent-proof, wear-proof arms?  
> 
 
it's a matter of degrees, which don't always work out,  
but are still valid. there is no 'no gaps' rule for sdc armour. .  
 
 
 
X-Sender: naneiden@iswest.com 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 00:17:00 -0700 
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com> 
Subject: Re: Big Brother is Watching 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 8 
 
At 12:57 AM 7/9/97 -0500, jvallejo@bellsouth.net wrote: 
>I am trying to create a character like Xero, from DC Comics, who has 
>link up with a supercomputer through an orbiting satellite that allows 
>him to identify certain targets and get instant information about them. 
>Of course, info would be limited to what would be in a computer 
>database, presumably a Federal one.  Presumably the computer could also 
>access other computers for info.  I was wondering if anyone had any 
>ideas on how to build this type of computer link.  I think I remember 
>seeing something like this in Enemies for Hire, but I don't have that 
>book with me.  I would appreciate any comments. 
> 
 
	The best way would probably be to buy the approprate skills and senses, 
then make the special effect be a link to a master satalite. You could have 
an activation roll if there are chances that the info won't be available. 
 
	If the link would only provide info on what has been observed before, then 
just buy a high KS. If it reveals limitations, disavantages, powers, etc, 
then by a form of detect with analyze. 
 
-Nic 
 
 
               +------------------------------------------------------+ 
               |                  naneiden@iswest.com                 | 
               |        Justice, Like Lightning, Thunderbolts!        | 
               | http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/thunder.html  | 
               |                   Costumed Heroines                  | 
               |         http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/      | 
               +------------------------------------------------------+ 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> 
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:41:40 +0000 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law & Speedster Tricks 
Reply-to: guyhoyle@iname.com 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 15 
 
 
> At 11:58 AM 8/7/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
> >KF> So you would have to get Indirect on your running to walk around a wall?  
> > 
> >Only if Running does not allow one to turn. 
>  
> Just thought I'd combine two of these threads for a moment. 
>  
> In the Golden Age comics it was quite common to see Flash or Johnny Quick  
> vibrate through walls. Would this be a good use of indirect on running for a  
> speedster??? 
 
Actually, I'm pretty sure that the vibrate-through-walls schtick  
originated with Barry Allen in the Silver Age, though the Golden Age  
Flash has done it since.  I don't think Johnny Quick has shown this  
ability, though he could fly. 
 
Guy 
---------------------------------- 
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com) 
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/ 
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf 
and the PANGAEA Project! 
 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 97 11:12:57 GMT 
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk 
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Steve McGinness) 
Subject: Looooooooong Arm of the Law & Speedster Tricks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 11 
 
At 11:58 AM 8/7/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>KF> So you would have to get Indirect on your running to walk around a wall?  
> 
>Only if Running does not allow one to turn. 
 
Just thought I'd combine two of these threads for a moment. 
 
In the Golden Age comics it was quite common to see Flash or Johnny Quick  
vibrate through walls. Would this be a good use of indirect on running for a  
speedster??? 
 
 
Stephen McGinness 
 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 97 11:25:59 GMT 
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk 
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Steve McGinness) 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 10 
 
At 01:17 PM 8/7/97, Eric Burns wrote: 
>> When we played our Golden Heroes campaign the referee asked us to make  
>> characters using the Justice Inc rules, 75 points with 100 points  
>> disadvantages, after we had submitted those characters we were then provided  
>> 75 points for _one_ power. This power might have been the ability to turn  
> 
>This sounds like an incredibly good idea to me.  I'd be interested to 
>know: what other power concepts did the players come up with?  Also, 
>what is Justice, Inc., a suppliment for Champs? 
 
I think many people have already set you straight about the Justice Inc  
thing, and I reckon has shown how many of us are old-timers to be about when  
JI was still a going concern. 
 
As for the characters, Hmm! Long time ago 
 
The Invulnerable Man (obvious really) 
The Invisible Man (again simply invisibility) 
The Superquick Man (SPD 12 - amazing how fast you can run just with an  
increase in SPD) 
Mr Big Gun (had a multipower with a couple of slots, only EB type slots though) 
Mr Scary (High PRE, NND only when someone taken by surprise) 
 
I think there was one more but I can't remember what. We had all kinds of  
ideas though... 
 
Atomic Boxer (explosive puches ala TNT and Dyna-Mite) 
Birdman (wings ala Hawkman) 
The Committee (Duplication ala Triplicate Lass) 
Mr Small (Shrinking) 
 
It's amazing how useful any one big power is when everyone else is basically  
normal. 
 
>The more I read the BBB, the more I believe that limiting the amount 
>of points that players can spend on powers, and setting a minimum number 
>of points that players must spend on non-combat skills is necessary 
>to discourage the creation of walking, talking nukes as characters. 
 
It is an issue but you have to be careful about how you go about limiting  
the powers etc because some concepts require more point expenditure than  
others to achieve any game playability. As we have often discovered, all  
powers are not equal. 
 
>-Eric 
 
 
Stephen 
 
From: ErolB1@aol.com 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:26:06 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Shrinking point pool? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 12 
 
In a message dated 97-07-09 04:18:52 EDT, lizard@dnai.com writes: 
 
> I am interested in ideas, etc, for implementing a variant VPP...one where 
>  the points used for a power are 'consumed' until they 'regenerate'. This 
>  can be used to represent a Wizard with a fixed amount of 'spell points', 
>  someone with a Power Ring which runs down until recharged, etc. 
 
Hey Lizard, weren't you the one who asked about a "one-power" version of this 
a long time ago on the AOL Hero board? IIRC, you wanted a character who could 
throw one 20d EB, or 2 10d EBs, or [any combination that added up to 20 dice] 
of EBs each hour.  
 
>   
>  For example, the Red Rollerblader, herald of Nebulos, has a 200 point 
>  'Draining VPP'. He can use 20 10-active point powers, or 5 20 AP powers 
and 
>  one 100 point power, or 40 5 point powers, etc. He regains points by 
asking 
>  his boss for a recharge. END Battery doesn't quite have the right 'feel' 
>  for my purposes, though in a pinch, it will do. 
 
Well, an END Battery is what I suggested then, and is what I would suggest 
now. Buy all the powers with 'costs 10x END' so that each active point costs 
1 END. Then buy a big END Battery equal to the size of the pool and tinker 
with the size and conditions of the Recovery to get the right "feel." (In 
your example above, Red Rollerblader could buy no REC on the battery, or REC 
with the limitation 'only when being "recharged" by Nebulos.' Nebulos would 
then buy a big Aid to the END battery recovery. Or possibly a Recovery Usable 
by Others.) 
 
Of course, constant powers (e.g. Force Field or Force Wall) will bring in 
complications. Is this why you don't find END battery to give the right 
'feel'? 
 
Erol K. Bayburt 
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow 
 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:16:26 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Indiana Jones, Rifts, what sells, and other off topic stuff... (fwd) 
From: "Mike O'Connor" <mjo@dojo.mi.org> 
Reply-To: "Mike O'Connor" <mjo@dojo.mi.org> 
X-Organization: :noitazinagrO-X 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 14 
 
[various comments about Rifts] 
 
:But, with Rifts, rules are constantly being added, along with new powers and 
:abilities, with no eye to game balance, or logic, symetry or consistancy. 
:It's a so-called multi-genre game system that lacks internal, universal 
:principles (like: 1 PPE can create this much effect, no matter what magic is 
:being used - never mind that many will have magic powers that work sans 
:PPE...). HERO has the Character Points to keep things in line, as does GURPS. 
 
As a member of a gaming group who playtested Rifts (the rules 
clarifications and working character sheet in the first supplement  
came from us), I can say that we tried.  <sigh>  It got to be such 
a mess that it became difficult to play, and those who _were_ into 
more and more rules and less balance went from Champions to Rifts 
to Chart^H^H^H^H^HRolemaster.   
 
Hmmm...  I wonder just how many people playtested Fusion before it was 
announced.  <duck and cover>  :) 
 
--  
 Michael J. O'Connor | WWW: http://dojo.mi.org/~mjo/ | Email: mjo@dojo.mi.org 
 InterNIC WHOIS: MJO | (has my PGP & Geek Code info) | Phone: +1 248-848-4481 
 =--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--= 
"I darn you to heck!"                 -Phil, the Prince of Insufficient Light 
 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 08:33:10 -0700 
From: Mike Sprague <sprague@VivaNET.com> 
Reply-To: sprague@VivaNET.com 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 13 
 
HAPPYELF!!! wrote: 
>  
> At 10:57 AM 7/8/97 -0700, you wrote: 
> >You don't need super powers and the like to have fun roleplaying.  The 
> >problem with IJ is not the setting, but the game system itself and the 
> >fact that Indy is the main character, and the only one worth playing. 
> >That makes for lousy group gaming!! 
> > 
> >                       ~ Mike 
> > 
>  
> Hey! this is hero, man! what , are we all waiting for the folks at hero to 
> do us up some character  sheets? 
 
Huh?!?  What has that got to do with why the TSR game failed, and why I 
think the setting will still work fine for a game?  
 
> ALSO, there's this attitude that cool stuff like whips and equavilent 
> tricks don't count as powers. ... . .. . 
 
A lot of them are Skills, not powers .... and all I was saying is that 
you don't _have_ to have Powers to have fun! 
 
			~ Mike 
 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:57:37 -0400 
X-Sender: absga@elbertonga.com 
From: Patrick Barden <absga@elbertonga.com> 
Subject: Mental Flash 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 16 
 
I have a player who came up with a power idea that I am not sure how to 
handle.  He want a character who uses flash against the mental sense group. 
What if any practical combat or non combat effect would this have? 
 
The same player also wants to have a character who has invisibility only 
versus mental sense group.  His reasoning is that Egoist opponents should 
not be able to "find" him mentally to attack him since to them his mind is 
simply not there. 
 
I think these are interesting concepts but I have no idea how to handle them 
practically.  I don't want to say no to the character, but I need to decide 
just what effect these powers are going to have and how to effectivly build 
them. 
 
Ideas anyone????? 
 
Patrick B. 
  
 
 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 12:08:21 -0400 
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org> 
Subject: Mental Flash 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 17 
 
> I have a player who came up with a power idea that I am not sure how to 
> handle.  He want a character who uses flash against the mental sense group. 
> What if any practical combat or non combat effect would this have? 
 
This is discussed in The Ultimate Mentalist; however, I can't remember what 
conclusions it reaches, so this may or may not agree with it. 
 
There are two interpretations you can make: 
 
1) Mental Powers require any targeting sense to lock on. 
2) Mental Powers require a mental targeting sense to lock on. 
 
Which one of these you pick has an obvious effect on the usefulness of these 
powers. I'm going to assume you pick 1 (if you pick 2, the uses become pretty 
obvious). 
 
This power would stop: Mind Scan, Detects in the Mental Sense group, 
etc. Rather specialized, unless you're in a mentalist game. 
 
> The same player also wants to have a character who has invisibility only 
> versus mental sense group.  His reasoning is that Egoist opponents should 
> not be able to "find" him mentally to attack him since to them his mind is 
> simply not there. 
 
See above. If you pick #1 and he still wants to do this, have him buy 
Invisiblity to all Sense groups, only for use of Mental Powers.  
 
> I think these are interesting concepts but I have no idea how to handle them 
> practically.  I don't want to say no to the character, but I need to decide 
> just what effect these powers are going to have and how to effectivly build 
> them. 
 
It sounds to me like the player is trying to find cheap ways of becoming 
immune to mental powers. I would suggest asking the player to describe the 
effect (rather than the power) he wants, and going from there.  
 
"Flash vs. Mental Defense" is a power; 
"A power which makes mentalists unable to target anyone with their powers" is 
an effect (barely).  
 
Geoff Speare 
 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 13:21:33 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Mental Flash 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 19 
 
>> I have a player who came up with a power idea that I am not sure how to 
>> handle.  He want a character who uses flash against the mental sense group. 
>> What if any practical combat or non combat effect would this have? 
 
Mental Flashes would stop: 
 
Mind Scan (can't spot the target) 
Telepathy (can't recieve thoughts). 
Telepathic Mind Control (can't 'hear' mental commands) 
Mind Link (as Telepathy) 
Images (can't percieve Mental Group Images) 
possibly Mental Illusions (can't 'recieve' the illusion) 
.... 
 
Yoiks, this could be a great _defensive_ tool! For example, if you've been 
hearing group flashed, you can't be issued 'standard' Mind Control commands 
b/c you can't hear the orders, right? But if you've been Mental Group 
Flashed, you can't percieve Mental Energies. 
 
So, potentially, you couldn't be Telepathically Mind Controlled, nor 
percieve Mental Illusions - so long as you were mental group Flashed. 
 
Maybe Mental Flash isn't so useless after all... 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
From: Chuff78002@aol.com 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 13:29:04 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: uthden Troll at last ! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 20 
 
Hi all, 
Well I've finally done the stats for the Uthden Troll, but I've decide that 
with this conversion from magic to fantasy hero, I will not send it to the 
list in general but only to those that want to see it, so if you can read 
Heromaker files and want it then e-mail me direct. 
However, I could be persuaded to post to the list in general if enough people 
express an interest, but in future I will, as a rule, just post the 
background/ecology notes as a taster and we'll see where we go from there.... 
 
By the way Eurogencon is going ahead, and there should be a fuzion demo table 
! 
 
Chuff78002. 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:09:54 -0400 (EDT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 21 
 
> > Also, what is Justice, Inc., a suppliment for Champs? 
>  
> Heathen! 
>  
 
I repent! I repent! 
 
> No, actually it was a Hero System game, back when there were  
> different varieties of the system for different genres. It was a  
> 1920s and 30s pulp fiction game, using the same basic system as  
> Champions, but somewhat different rules and unusual abilities. 
>  
 
Hmmm... I was looking through a gaming catalog and I saw a Hero/Champs 
sourcebook called "Golden Age Champions".  Does anyone know if this is 
along the same lines as JI, or if it is any good? 
  
>  
> Filksinger 
>  
>  
> "Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
>  
 
-Eric 
 
From: HeroGames@aol.com 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:18:33 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Hero Games News 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 22 
 
An update for you... 
 
We've shipped off the first four Hero Plus products (Ultimate Super Mage, 
Ultimate Martial Artist, An Eye For An Eye, and HeroMaker) to distributors a 
couple of weeks ago, and they are now entering retail stores. Retailers can 
order them from Wargames West, Liberty Hobby Distributors, or Berkeley Game 
Distributors; other distributors are being added over the next month. 
 
We're shipping 5 more products from Hero Plus for GenCon: 4 electronic books 
(Widows&Orphans, a Dark Champions adventure sourcebook; Classic Enemies; 
Ultimate Mentalist; and Bright Future, an SF campaign book) and The Creation 
Workshop, a universal RPG utility software package that lets you create 
things for virtually any RPG (it includes the Fuzion Creator with it). Later 
this year we plan to ship a Hero Creator and an Interlock Creator, and the 
program will let you convert characters between game systems automatically. 
 
Hero Games will be present at Origins, San Diego Comic Con, and GenCon; 
please come by and talk with us! 
 
Alliances, the next New Millennium book from R. Talsorian, should be coming 
back from the printers next week. The book covers some major organizations in 
the campaign, and there's also some errata and some new rules for Fuzion in 
there, as well as many characters and some very interesting and useful 
organizations for any Champions campaign. 
 
We've got many more releases lining up for Hero Plus; we're planning for 
regular releases starting in September. All of the books from that point on 
will include both Hero System and Fuzion information. We have more Ultimate 
books, fantasy campaign books, science fiction campaigns, sourcebooks for 
several genres, and more in the works. 
 
One more thing: the Hero Games web site (www.herogames.com) is in the process 
of moving to a new ISP; InterNIC has had the address change request for a 
couple of weeks, but it hasn't yet gone into effect. So the site is down 
right now, but should be up soon (I'll post a message here when it is). We've 
been busy updating it, and now that it's at a new ISP we'll be able to do 
that regularly.  
 
We have several seminars lined up for GenCon, so if you have Hero questions 
show up there for real-time answers! 
 
Have a Heroic Summer, 
Steve Peterson 
Hero Games 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 09 Jul 1997 14:22:51 -0400 
Lines: 59 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 24 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BB" == Bryan Berggren <ludator@softfarm.com> writes: 
 
BB> This is because such a thing isn't an advantage to a human arm.  I can 
BB> reach around a corner and grab an object/person -- the limiting factor 
BB> is the length of my arm, not the fact that I had to "turn". 
 
But we are not necessarilly talking about a human arm -- mine cannot 
stretch beyond about two and a half feet. 
 
[...] 
 
BB> There's no "line" at all for Teleportation.  This would render the 
BB> Power Running with Invisible Power effects; a Teleporter simply does 
BB> not pass through the intervening space at all.  Just thought I'd point 
BB> that out. 
 
Yes, there is such a line for Teleportation: it is drawn between the 
starting and ending point of the movement.  It is this line which 
determines distance; it is this line that determines line of sight. 
 
[...] 
 
BB> Rat, let me put this very simply: they are very similar types of power 
BB> in one respect -- THEY ARE NOT ATTACKS. 
 
There is no such thing as an "attack power".  There are powers that may be 
used to make attacks, and Running sometimes may be used in an attack. 
 
BB> Read the summary of "Indirect", the last paragraph on the page. 
 
Three words, Vox: First Sentence Rule. 
 
:) 
 
BB> Notice how it keeps saying "if the ATTACK" (emphasis mine)?  Stretching 
BB> isn't an attack. 
 
But the act of reaching over the wall to hit/grab/whatever the guy on the 
other side *IS* an attack.  It does require an attack roll, it requires an 
action, etc.  The power that allows you to make that attack is Stretching. 
So Stretching should have Indirect on it to allow for that. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBM8PW956VRH7BJMxHAQGx6wQAyattFe0gbmlmZC8WBjXi4OZFtsHflRcT 
qd7tBqvOYnldDKXbz/Huv6luIWya/bFUT4gL5lqbAEem8pWU1OGSq5NASZXdIRgO 
IoFKueOQWmH2I+wFouWqnLVdho73CFuKrsjNlJvVKW6SQHgUrtowV1/aw5kkQs/J 
lFypHoy5S1w= 
=fxr9 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law & Speedster Tricks 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 09 Jul 1997 14:25:07 -0400 
Lines: 27 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 23 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "SM" == Steve McGinness <smcginn@csm.exeter.ac.uk> writes: 
 
SM> In the Golden Age comics it was quite common to see Flash or Johnny 
SM> Quick vibrate through walls. Would this be a good use of indirect on 
SM> running for a speedster??? 
 
No. 
 
Try Tunnelling. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBM8PXgJ6VRH7BJMxHAQEqyAQAoyYmGMlvCdWKInEAOlk2nUu7lmm3UUWB 
UuHzaBaGyDWxYjUo7Bsqh9fsfDomgwj/cjvuyGYiCGohkHVCfzMbyNIekUuOazJa 
rk7prLjFr3xMxsxM7IivJO2mGeyx7s/Zjv72ZNRutMNrGki+JMUgGKugJyWJ4Yz5 
xNwYEuvkHO0= 
=6jAi 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Mental Flash 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 09 Jul 1997 14:31:37 -0400 
Lines: 37 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 25 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "GS" == Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org> writes: 
 
GS> 1) Mental Powers require any targeting sense to lock on. 
GS> 2) Mental Powers require a mental targeting sense to lock on. 
 
Vanillia champions says #1 is the case.  There are really only two senses 
in the mental sense group: Mental Awareness and Mind Scan.  Only Mind Scan 
may be used to target mental powers; Mental Awareness is basically "sense 
mental powers".  Since there is no requirement that one purchase Mind Scan 
to use other mental powers it is reasonable to assume that other senses may 
be used instead. 
 
A Flash vs. the mental sense group would "blind" a character that tries to 
use these two senses but they will not prevent the character from using his 
other senses to target mental attacks.  This makes a Flash vs. the mental 
group pretty useless in most campaigns. 
 
And yes, #1 means that one may target mental powers with non-targeting 
senses as well as targeting senses. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBM8PZB56VRH7BJMxHAQF0kwP8DzqXTPtVYWCXH1wjqvAuRfponbB84RT/ 
ezPaAOYbySNSq4HSUtJucs5v04efTCHUtRh93Z7eHTYmhRaaueXhEQaKvce4tAkq 
Tgn7qqcw8yXefIIKaSM0Cw2QSkLyJ6ccwV8ZyLTSOSwmyP07TTF0mIBKbPCsyfU+ 
ocUT+55Opww= 
=SrmQ 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should 
                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Mental Flash 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 09 Jul 1997 14:35:12 -0400 
Lines: 39 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 26 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes: 
 
JaRP> Telepathy (can't recieve thoughts). 
JaRP> Telepathic Mind Control (can't 'hear' mental commands) 
JaRP> Mind Link (as Telepathy) 
 
This is kind of bogus since none of these powers are senses.  As such, 
Flash will not affect them or be affected by them. 
 
JaRP> Images (can't percieve Mental Group Images) 
 
Unlikely since Images even vs. the mental group is not a mental power. 
 
JaRP> possibly Mental Illusions (can't 'recieve' the illusion) 
 
Maybe... this comes down to special effects, though. 
 
JaRP> Yoiks, this could be a great _defensive_ tool! 
 
No, it is not.  If you want mental defenses you have to buy Mental Defense 
or a higher Ego. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBM8PZ3Z6VRH7BJMxHAQG4JAQAi19tfo67/SM2JcMf7Q2iOI2BJzeD0/UI 
6OjCV5qaYEafp580jvcZcCcv8mgDi5x8fgIZND08RkDHyORKHoAdcYRJ5xD3Vtar 
oPqE50BcgHzQ1enSESymkqBBqhcLYclI40z8epf44bZNc0y8whAbxJTkjrLR17By 
2UNiGSePicw= 
=9WEu 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should 
                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. 
 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:36:40 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 27 
 
>> Hmm...+1/4 'Parabolic Trajectory' advantage...good for mortars, 
>> grenades, shurikens and boomerangs (handwaving required ;-). 
 
>Also, +1/2 Maneuverable attack. This is an attack that can maneuver  
>itself, so that it can come from any direction, go around corners,  
>over walls, etc., but is not able to go through barriers, only  
>around. Example: The batarang from Batman 2. Really versatile   
>aerodynamic shurikens should take this, as grenades cannot go around  
>corners, only over walls. 
 
That is NOT worth a whole +1/2 advantage. It's +1/4 tops - as you can often 
do the same thing by bouncing an attack with combat levels (though it's not 
always the appropriate mechanic - some weapons are _made_ to take a strictly 
non-straight-line trajectory. Like those keen nerf three-bladed boomerang 
thingies.). 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: RE: Hero Games News 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:55:39 -0400 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 30 
 
>We have several seminars lined up for GenCon, so if you have Hero  
> >questions show up there for real-time answers! 
>  
> Could you tell us where and when you'll be doing what with who? 
>  
> Dave Mattingly 
>  
 
From: BeerCarboy@aol.com 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:53:12 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Epic Campaign 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 32 
 
I have in mind to begin a high-powered supers campaign with a particularly 
epic feel.  The idea is that in a world almost like our own there are only a 
few super-powered beings, perhaps 5000 total and most of them are relatively 
low-powered.  Each of the PCs will be very powerful, 300pt base and a maximum 
of 200 additional points from disads.  Each character must have a unique 
origin, no mutants or other shared origins and a Secret ID.  In the early 
part of the campaign I want the players to think of it as a typical supers 
game, perhaps with a bit more emphasis on character background 
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 12:57:39 -0700 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: Shrinking point pool? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 31 
 
At 08:26 AM 7/9/97 -0400, ErolB1@aol.com wrote: 
>In a message dated 97-07-09 04:18:52 EDT, lizard@dnai.com writes: 
> 
>> I am interested in ideas, etc, for implementing a variant VPP...one where 
>>  the points used for a power are 'consumed' until they 'regenerate'. This 
>>  can be used to represent a Wizard with a fixed amount of 'spell points', 
>>  someone with a Power Ring which runs down until recharged, etc. 
> 
>Hey Lizard, weren't you the one who asked about a "one-power" version of this 
>a long time ago on the AOL Hero board? IIRC, you wanted a character who could 
>throw one 20d EB, or 2 10d EBs, or [any combination that added up to 20 dice] 
>of EBs each hour.  
> 
Nope, wasn't me. I was the one who started the thread on how to do a 
Sleeper/Dial H For Hero type character, though. (Never did really get 
resolved...mebbe I'll start it here) 
 
 
>Of course, constant powers (e.g. Force Field or Force Wall) will bring in 
>complications. Is this why you don't find END battery to give the right 
>'feel'? 
 
Largely. Also, the main use for this power is actually for FH wizards. I 
want wizards who have a fixed amount of 'power' to use, and can use it to 
cast any spell they know..learning a spell should only cost a point. They 
will 'know' more spells than they could hope to cast in a reasonable time 
period. The knowledge of the spells and the raw power of the mage become 
seperate things...this permits the 'Mageborn' character with a huge power 
pool but who has learned only a single simple spell (which he can cast a 
dozen times), and the 'scholar', who knows a great deal of magic but can 
only cast one or two spells before running out of juice. The reason I don't 
like END battery is a)continuing spells, and, b)I like magic to drain the 
mages own reserves of energy (I usually use 'Mental END' equal to (EGO+INT).) 
 
From: BeerCarboy@aol.com 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 16:05:29 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Epic Campaign 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 34 
 
I have in mind to begin a high-powered supers campaign with a particularly 
epic feel.  The idea is that in a world almost like our own there are only a 
few super-powered beings, perhaps 5000 total and most of them are relatively 
low-powered.  Each of the PCs will be very powerful, 300pt base and a maximum 
of 200 additional points from disads.  Each character must have a unique 
origin, no mutants or other shared origins and a Secret ID.  In the early 
part of the campaign I want the players to think of it as a typical supers 
game, perhaps with a bit more emphasis on character background and 
interactions other han straight combat. But eventually I want each of them to 
realize that some of the people they encounter, or at least types of people 
they encounter who are hostile to them all work for some shadowy organization 
that is specifically targetting the individuals that make up the PC group. 
 Then I want each PC to also realize that there is another group (different 
for each PC) that is almost always nearby and observing the individual in 
question when that person is in action.  Eventually these other groups will 
approach the individual PCs (or vice versa) and will offer their assistance 
to the PC for whatever goals the PC is deeply concerned about . . . the only 
catch being that the organization has a specific purpose for the PC as well. 
  
        The idea I am going for (please to not allow this to offend your 
religious feelings) is that back in the Axial Age (the time when monotheism 
really got going, displacing the various pantheistic religions around the 
world) a superbeing was elevate to a position close to omnipotence and has 
since then shaped the world in his own image.  In our own time that being is 
nearing the end of his reign, and will soon be replaced presumably by one of 
the PCs.  The original being is sufficiently removed from the scene that he 
cannot directly oppose the PCs but his mortal agents do in the form of the 
first organization.  The other organizations are all distinct groups who hope 
to place their choice (i.e. the PC they have been watching) for godhead over 
the world. 
    Ultimately the PCs will each have to decide if the want to assume such a 
position, deal with the other groups including the agents of the current 
Demiurge if they do, and deal with the organization that has chosen them if 
they don't (and with any other organization that doesn't believe they don't 
wish). 
    
     I see this ultimately evolving into a surreal political game often with 
the PCs struggling against their former teammates. 
But what I really want to know is if anyone here has done or participated or 
heard of anything similar or if they have any ideas about how to go about 
something this big. 
 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 16:07:17 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Mental Flash 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 33 
 
>JaRP> Telepathy (can't recieve thoughts). 
>JaRP> Telepathic Mind Control (can't 'hear' mental commands) 
>JaRP> Mind Link (as Telepathy) 
> 
>This is kind of bogus since none of these powers are senses.  As such, 
>Flash will not affect them or be affected by them. 
 
Yes, but if someone is trying to communicate with you via mental powers, it 
seems valid that if you've been Mental Group Flashed that you can't "hear" 
the communication. You'd be 'headblind' - unable to recieve telepathic 
transmissions. 
 
>JaRP> Images (can't percieve Mental Group Images) 
> 
>Unlikely since Images even vs. the mental group is not a mental power. 
 
But if you can't use Mental Awareness because of a Mental Group Flash, how 
can you percieve Images vs. the Mental Group? 
 
>JaRP> possibly Mental Illusions (can't 'recieve' the illusion) 
> 
>Maybe... this comes down to special effects, though. 
 
If it was an area effect power it would likely protect you. Directed 
attacks, that's a more iffy area... 
 
>JaRP> Yoiks, this could be a great _defensive_ tool! 
> 
>No, it is not.  If you want mental defenses you have to buy Mental Defense 
>or a higher Ego. 
 
It's as much of a defense as Hearing Group Flash can render someone 'immune' 
to certain sonic NND powers, sonically based mind controls, etc. 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:26:51 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Hero Games News 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 38 
 
At 02:18 PM 7/9/97 -0400, HeroGames@aol.com wrote: 
>An update for you... 
> 
>We've shipped off the first four Hero Plus products (Ultimate Super Mage, 
>Ultimate Martial Artist, An Eye For An Eye, and HeroMaker) to distributors a 
>couple of weeks ago, and they are now entering retail stores. Retailers can 
>order them from Wargames West, Liberty Hobby Distributors, or Berkeley Game 
>Distributors; other distributors are being added over the next month. 
 
   Ah, it's about time!  I'll keep a lookout for TUSM; I'd been going to buy 
that with birthday money (last May), but never got around to it and couldn't 
get it in stores anyway. 
 
>We're shipping 5 more products from Hero Plus for GenCon: 4 electronic books 
>(Widows&Orphans, a Dark Champions adventure sourcebook; Classic Enemies; 
>Ultimate Mentalist; and Bright Future, an SF campaign book) and The Creation 
>Workshop, a universal RPG utility software package that lets you create 
>things for virtually any RPG (it includes the Fuzion Creator with it). Later 
>this year we plan to ship a Hero Creator and an Interlock Creator, and the 
>program will let you convert characters between game systems automatically. 
 
   I *know* that this program will be a godsend for many of us, provided it 
works properly.  I assume that one will be able to insert one's house rules 
into the program (such as DEF and BODY for Entangles being bought 
separately, or 2x DNPCs on the same Roll are worth +5 points)? 
 
>Hero Games will be present at Origins, San Diego Comic Con, and GenCon; 
>please come by and talk with us! 
 
   I really wish I was going to GenCon....  But no money.   :~( 
 
>Alliances, the next New Millennium book from R. Talsorian, should be coming 
>back from the printers next week. The book covers some major organizations in 
>the campaign, and there's also some errata and some new rules for Fuzion in 
>there, as well as many characters and some very interesting and useful 
>organizations for any Champions campaign. 
 
   Do you dare tell *which* organizations?  (Or are they all new groups?) 
 
>We've got many more releases lining up for Hero Plus; we're planning for 
>regular releases starting in September. All of the books from that point on 
>will include both Hero System and Fuzion information. We have more Ultimate 
>books, fantasy campaign books, science fiction campaigns, sourcebooks for 
>several genres, and more in the works. 
 
   What about more Ultimate books? 
 
>One more thing: the Hero Games web site (www.herogames.com) is in the process 
>of moving to a new ISP; InterNIC has had the address change request for a 
>couple of weeks, but it hasn't yet gone into effect. So the site is down 
>right now, but should be up soon (I'll post a message here when it is). We've 
>been busy updating it, and now that it's at a new ISP we'll be able to do 
>that regularly.  
 
   I'm glad you mentioned this; I'd been wondering about it, and was about 
to write and ask.  Thanks.  :-] 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:26:54 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Justice Inc. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 45 
 
At 02:09 PM 7/9/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote: 
>Hmmm... I was looking through a gaming catalog and I saw a Hero/Champs 
>sourcebook called "Golden Age Champions".  Does anyone know if this is 
>along the same lines as JI, or if it is any good? 
 
   No and yes, respectively.  There are a few holes in it, and it doesn't 
quite line up 100% with the established Hero timeline (even before the 
"reboot" of CNM), but it does have a wealth of material. 
   What is is, essentially, is a sourcebook for playing Champions in the 
Golden Age of comics -- the early Batman, Superman, Captain Marvel, and 
Captain America stories of the World War II era, before McCarthyism 
destroyed everything that was good and decent in print and other media (and 
I say this as a staunch conservative and anti-Communist myself). 
   I played in a brief GAC game myself, once, back when it was a licensed 
game from a company called Firebird.  I liked it so much that my PC from 
that campaign, Professor Cyborg, is a semi-retired NPC hero in my current game. 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:26:54 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law & Speedster Tricks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 39 
 
At 11:12 AM 7/9/97 GMT, Steve McGinness wrote: 
>At 11:58 AM 8/7/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>KF> So you would have to get Indirect on your running to walk around a wall?  
>> 
>>Only if Running does not allow one to turn. 
> 
>Just thought I'd combine two of these threads for a moment. 
> 
>In the Golden Age comics it was quite common to see Flash or Johnny Quick  
>vibrate through walls. Would this be a good use of indirect on running for a  
>speedster??? 
 
   I would say yes. 
   In fact, I was just recently rewriting Death Rider (from the 
third-edition Enemies: Villainy Unbound), and that's how I rewrote the 
Teleport from the earlier character sheet. 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:26:55 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Mental Flash 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 43 
 
At 11:57 AM 7/9/97 -0400, Patrick Barden wrote: 
>I have a player who came up with a power idea that I am not sure how to 
>handle.  He want a character who uses flash against the mental sense group. 
>What if any practical combat or non combat effect would this have? 
 
   His target would be unable to use Mind Scan, receptive Telepathy, or 
receptive Mind Link as long as the Flash worked. 
 
>The same player also wants to have a character who has invisibility only 
>versus mental sense group.  His reasoning is that Egoist opponents should 
>not be able to "find" him mentally to attack him since to them his mind is 
>simply not there. 
 
   According to The Ultimate Mentalist, Invisibility vs the Mental Sense 
Group would render the character undetectable to Mind Scan or the receptive 
portions of Mind Link and Telepathy. 
   If he wants the above effect, he'd have to buy Invisibility vs Sight 
Group, with the -1 Limitation "Only to Protect Against Mental Powers."  This 
is a lot of "bang for the buck," however (at a cost of only 10-15 real 
points, it actually give more effect than the above structure for a smaller 
cost -- but see below), and so should be approached by the GM with extreme 
caution, if at all. 
   Of course, this can be overcome by an opponent with a Targeting sense 
other than sight, such as Targeting Sonar, Targeting Hearing, or even just 
plain old Mind Scan.  If you want to keep this ability from becoming too 
cheap, you can require that the character either buy Invisibility vs darned 
near everything, or accept that limitation (lower-case L). 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 16:31:46 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 41 
 
At 09:30 AM 7/9/97 +1000, HAPPYELF!!! wrote: 
>> First of all, a lot of it isn't that original, seeing as Kevin and his 
>> boys just copied it straight up from the other games they'd built.   
>> Magic comes from =Palladium Fantasy=, mega-damage and mecha from 
>> =Robotech-, psionics from =Beyond the Supernatural=, cybernetics from 
>> =Ninjas & Superspies=, etc. And let's not forget dumping in =Mechanoids= 
>> wholesale;  
> 
>u-huh? and mechanics is what counts? well, in that case, hero's the least 
original game ever!  
 
We're talking Palladium here.  The mechanics and the "special effects" are 
pretty much identical.  For example, it's a little screwy when magic works 
identically in their fantasy game, their superhero game, and their 
meta-genre game, considering it's NOT a "generic" magic system -- why should 
superheroes have the exact same limited spell list as medieval mages?  Why 
would the exact same cybernetic advances be made in the far-flung future of 
Rifts as in the advanced 20th century world of Ninjas and Superspies?  Et 
cetera, ad infinitum. 
 
>puh-lease! let's face it- my point is still valid.  
 
Golly gee willickers, I can't beat (non)logic like that. 
 
>i know- this is a problem of their. . and a problem of hero's too, imho. .  
 
But HERO's a generic roleplaying system with no set campaign.  You know 
you're getting into a "build it yourself" situation when you buy it.  Rifts 
is ostensibly a one-campaign RPG, like Shadowrun or Star Wars.  Since it's 
apparently intended to play "Rifts genre" adventures, it's IMPORTANT to know 
what a "Rifts genre" adventure is; whereas with HERO, you just configure the 
rules to whatever genre you had in mind all along. 
 
== 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 16:31:50 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 44 
 
At 08:53 PM 7/8/97 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>If the minimal level is more than you'd ever want, it certainly does - 
>the Power forces you to spend points for nothing, which is hardly 
>"efficient". 
 
You're not spending points for nothing, you're spending points for more than 
you wanted.   There's a difference between spending my money on three magic 
beans and just throwing it out the window. :] 
 
It remains "efficient", it just may not be desirable to BE efficient in that 
example. 
 
>"Only w/ one power" is easily a -1...  
 
"Only w/ power" is worth exactly -1/2, since it's also known as "Linked", at 
least to one school (the school I DON'T belong to, even). :/   
 
> you're still picking your examples awfully carefully. 
 
Considering I'm trying to point out a mathematical weakness, it behooves me 
to choose examples which actually DISPLAY that weakness.  This is 
straightforward, not subterfuge: I'm just pointing out, it doesn't take long 
before the short-range version of a power (i.e. the one built with 
Stretching) ends up costing more than the long range version.  Reductio ad 
absurdum. 
 
> Try a more standard 50 AP Power... by taking it No Range and buying 2"  
> No END Stretching, you save a full 10 points. Yeah, you lose 248" of 
> Range... big whoop; how many of those inches would you ever use? 
 
I think it might be useful to nail someone without having to leave Slingshot. :/ 
 
But the basic problem remains.  2" of stretching saves you 10 points.  Buy a 
mere two more inches, though, and once more the OBVIOUSLY LESS USEFUL power 
(and in this case, we're not even getting into the realm of ludicrous ranges 
-- 4" is more than enough for people to evade your reach with their free 
Running, whereas ANY Ranged Power could nail them) costs MORE than the original. 
 
As I said -- if Stretching's purpose is to allow you to build short-range 
powers, it's doing a really crappy job. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 16:31:53 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: Rifts -- HERO ruminations (was: Golden Age Mystery Men) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 42 
 
At 08:51 PM 7/8/97 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
>Anyway, I made a half-hearted attempt at converting Rifts to HERO. Here's 
>what happens to the SAMAS power armor in HERO terms (point costs ignored, 
>and it's a vehicle): 
 
My brother and I made a more-than-half-hearted attempt to build a Rifts HERO 
sourcefile.  It stalled, primarily due to the headaches I ran into trying to 
reconcile RIFTS armor mechanics (an "ablative model") with HERO's (a "damper 
model"). 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 16:31:55 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: Indiana Jones, Rifts, what sells, and other off topic 
  stuff... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 40 
 
At 09:28 PM 7/8/97 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
> Yeah, possibly because people are becoming less literate thanks to TV  
> and video/computer games (oh, boy, this should start a flamewar...).  
> What I mean is, you can find all these tons of ideas in standard 
> literature just as easily as RPG sourcebooks. At best, sourcebooks are 
> there to 'save time' for the GM. 
 
I'm not going to argue with your "less literate" statement.  But even 
accepting it as true, it doesn't really work as an explanation, since 
movies, television, and yes even video/computer games can make excellent 
source materials for a GM.  (I've always wanted to work up Chrono Trigger as 
an RPG setting ...) 
 
>Oh yeah...if MOM tech is nanotechnology that's implanted in the brain, how 
>come they've got all these external 'canister' things sticking out of their 
>heads? Hardly seems nanotech to me...;-). 
 
THIS one I can No=Prize: because that particular Crazy's insanities include 
a compulsion to install visible cyberware? 
 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 18:40:00 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Rifts -- HERO ruminations (was: Golden Age Mystery Men) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 47 
 
>>Anyway, I made a half-hearted attempt at converting Rifts to HERO. Here's 
>>what happens to the SAMAS power armor in HERO terms (point costs ignored, 
>>and it's a vehicle): 
> 
>My brother and I made a more-than-half-hearted attempt to build a Rifts HERO 
>sourcefile.  It stalled, primarily due to the headaches I ran into trying to 
>reconcile RIFTS armor mechanics (an "ablative model") with HERO's (a "damper 
>model"). 
 
I ditched the whole 'Ablative Armor' concept. MDC critters and armor just 
had piles of DEF and BODY. I think my 'standard starter full conversion 
Borg' package had 10 rPD, 10 rED Armor, on top of any PD, 50% Physical and 
Energy Damage Reduction, and THEN was wearing external armor (LI-B2 Borg 
Armor was DEF 12). Borgs were tough as hell - lots tougher than Power Armor 
because they were metal all the way through. But they still went down under 
concentrated Rail gun fire (Typically 5D6 RKA, Autofire 15) - though they 
were knocked out long before they were killed (all that trauma to the 
brain...). My main premise was: 
 
Infantry kills infantry fine (3D6 RKAs vs 10 DEF body armor) 
Power Armor annihilates infantry (4-6D6 RKAs vs 10 DEF body armor, while 
infantry had to use 3D6 RKA vs 20+ DEF) 
Robot Vehicles clobbered Power Armor (8-12D6 RKAs vs. 20 DEF, while the 
Robot Vehicles had 30+ DEF). 
 
Same scale battles (infantry-infantry, power armor-power armor, robot 
vehicle-robot vehicle) could last a while, but fighting something 'outside' 
your scale was suicide (usually). Most 'magical' critters would run 15-20 
DEF. Enough to make them mean customers vs. infantry, and a fair fight vs. 
power armor. Of course, a lot of them regenerated and had big HKAs (3-4D6 
plus lots of STR). A hatchling dragon could claw somebody out of his armor 
(4D6 HKA all told, with STR) with one swipe if he got lucky. In vanilla 
Rifts, it takes all damn day... 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
From: flacksd@evron.com 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:46:11 -0500 
Subject: Mental Trance Questions 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 46 
 
I have a few questions for the list regarding mental powers and trances.  
I will give the background information first and then ask my questions.  
This concerns a PC I am running in an existing game (The Hughes 
Academy PBEM), so any changes will have to be approved but the GM.  
Still, I plan to use the character concept again in a different game, so any 
suggestions are appreciated.  The character is called Powerball, due to 
his other powers. 
 
 
Character Background 
When Powerball was 12 he began to experience the occasional Psychic 
phenomena.  He once called every die roll in a Monopoly game.  He had 
similar experiences, such as turning a lamp on and off by thinking at it.  
The only phenomena he could regularly accomplish were Precognition 
and Psychometry.  He used a deck of cards to focus his precognition. 
 
Psychometry is sensing the past through contact with a specific item.  
The psychic impressions received depend on the emotional attachments 
of the object.  You get more from a priced possession than a piece of 
used gum.  The traditional example is that a mirror broken during a murder 
might reveal emotions of hate and fear, but the murder weapon itself may 
reveal an image of the killer.   
 
Whenever he used one of these two psychic abilities he would first 
have to put himself into a trance.  This took time and required his 
complete concentration.  There are two problems with a trance.  You do 
not always remember what you have said, and more importantly, it is 
nearly impossible to lie or stop yourself from talking. 
 
When he was in grade 8 a girl at school asked him to perform a card 
reading on her.  In his trance state he could not prevent himself from 
revealing that the cards said she would soon die from a disease.  She 
ran from the room in tears.  He did not know that she was in remission.  
He never saw her again.  Within six months she was dead.  The 
experience traumatized him.  He realized that he might have been partially 
responsible.  Maybe when she heard his prediction she stopped fighting 
her disease and allowed herself to die.  From that point on he swore 
never to predict the future again.  He is terrified of precognition, and this 
has made him nervous around psychics in general.  He has only recently 
started trying his Psychometry again, as the past is much safer than the 
future.  In order for him to use precognition, or any of his other mental 
abilities, again would require more than just training, some serious 
psychotherapy would be required. 
 
Now the questions; 
I am already using Extra Time and Concentrate 0 DCV for the trance, but 
this does not reflect the key points. 
 
1) He doesn*t always remember exactly what he says.  He can have a 
friend or tape recorder handy most of the time, so not much of a 
limitation. 
 
2) He can*t lie, or prevent himself from revealing what he sees, and he 
can*t automatically pull himself from the trance if he doesn*t want to say 
something.  This is the important consideration.  How to I reflect such a 
trance in Hero.  Perhaps an ego roll to exit the trance before he get all the 
information, but what is this worth? 
 
Finally, there is a side effect of his suppressed mental abilities.  He leaks 
telepathically.  He is constantly projecting a steam of (un)consciousness. 
 Anyone with mental powers would perceive this as a whisper they can 
almost make out.  The volume would range from barely perceptible to I 
can make out parts of words.  This would mainly be annoying, but might 
interfere with people that need to concentrate (Change Environment?)  
The main effect would be that he is constantly triggering the Mental 
Awareness of anyone in range.  This is designed have a minor annoying 
effect, so that true psychics might go so far as to ask him to please 
leave the area.  Think of a low volume, badly tunned radio.  Could this be 
a disadvantage, such as a mental distinctive feature, or a minor Psycho 
disadvantage.  I would suggest Psycho rather that Phsyc because he 
could get rid of this effect with sufficient experience and therapy. 
 
Daniel Flacks 
dflacks@evron.com 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net> 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:00:32 +0000 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 51 
 
> >> Hmm...+1/4 'Parabolic Trajectory' advantage...good for mortars, 
> >> grenades, shurikens and boomerangs (handwaving required ;-). 
>  
> >Also, +1/2 Maneuverable attack. This is an attack that can maneuver  
> >itself, so that it can come from any direction, go around corners,  
> >over walls, etc., but is not able to go through barriers, only  
> >around. Example: The batarang from Batman 2. Really versatile   
> >aerodynamic shurikens should take this, as grenades cannot go around  
> >corners, only over walls. 
>  
> That is NOT worth a whole +1/2 advantage. It's +1/4 tops - as you 
> can often do the same thing by bouncing an attack with combat levels 
> (though it's not always the appropriate mechanic - some weapons are 
> _made_ to take a strictly non-straight-line trajectory. Like those 
> keen nerf three-bladed boomerang thingies.). 
 
It has features of +3/4 Indirect, except that it cannot go directly  
through barriers. Given that bouncing energy blasts hasn't worked  
often in the games I've played, and would be useless for non-EB  
attacks, such as RKAs, I think that a +1/2 is appropriate. 
 
The shuriken mentioned before should, perhaps, be only +1/4, due to  
the fact that it is unlikely that a shuriken could be thrown so that  
it would go out the front door of a house and come in the back. If  
so, however, how do you rate a mere vertical parabolic arc? 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
From: HeroGames@aol.com 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 20:20:51 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Hero Games News 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 49 
 
In a message dated 97-07-09 20:03:15 EDT, DaveM@FocusSoft.com (Dave 
Mattingly) writes: 
 
<< Could you tell us where and when you'll be doing what with who? 
 >  
 > Dave Mattingly >> 
 
OK, here goes: 
 
All About Fuzion: Saturday 10-12 am, Lakeshore-B (in the Hyatt) 
 
Champions: New Millennium (and everything else related to Champions): Sunday 
12-2 pm, Lakeshore-B 
 
What's New at Hero Games: Thursday 4-6 pm, Lakeshore-B 
 
I'm also running two massive Fuzion demos, The Multiverse War, for 16 players 
each time. It's running Friday 12-4 and Saturday 12-4, in the arena at a 
miniatures table in the center. I'm using action figures and popular heroes 
from Marvel, DC, and Image... everyone's welcome to stop by and see the fun! 
 
-- Steve Peterson 
 
Subject: Re: Mental Trance Questions 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 97 20:57:16 -0500 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 50 
 
flacksd@evron.com 
 
>Now the questions; 
>1) He doesn*t always remember exactly what he says.  He can have a 
>friend or tape recorder handy most of the time, so not much of a 
>limitation. 
 
Use an "Activation Roll" to remember what he's said.  Since he can usually 
get around this, half the limitation (like a side effect, usually they 
don't occur, but if they always happen a common house rule doubles the  
limitation.  In this case the activation roll doesn't always happen, so 
half the limitation.)  Obviously, this isn't worth anything at the 15 less 
level and only -1/4 if he remembers on a 14 less. 
 
>2) He can*t lie, or prevent himself from revealing what he sees, and he 
>can*t automatically pull himself from the trance if he doesn*t want to say 
>something.  This is the important consideration.  How to I reflect such a 
>trance in Hero.  Perhaps an ego roll to exit the trance before he get all the 
>information, but what is this worth? 
 
Side Effect: Psychological Limitation: Will not lie, very common (he has  
to be  
talking when in trace, when this applies), total for 25 points. Always  
active. 
Depending on the active points of the power, I'd call this a -3/4, not  
quite the 
value as a 30 point lim that's always active but, as it apparently sets  
of other 
psych lims, this seems fair. 
 
>Finally, there is a side effect of his suppressed mental abilities.  He leaks 
>telepathically.  He is constantly projecting a steam of (un)consciousness. 
> Anyone with mental powers would perceive this as a whisper they can 
>almost make out.  The volume would range from barely perceptible to I 
>can make out parts of words.  This would mainly be annoying, but might 
>interfere with people that need to concentrate (Change Environment?)  
>The main effect would be that he is constantly triggering the Mental 
>Awareness of anyone in range.  This is designed have a minor annoying 
>effect, so that true psychics might go so far as to ask him to please 
>leave the area.  Think of a low volume, badly tunned radio.  Could this be 
>a disadvantage, such as a mental distinctive feature, or a minor Psycho 
>disadvantage.  I would suggest Psycho rather that Phsyc because he 
>could get rid of this effect with sufficient experience and therapy. 
 
Distinctive Features: Conditional (Mental Senses), Not Concealable, Major  
Reaction 
for 15 points (-5 + 15 + 5).  This also has a nice "buy off" curve built  
in, since 
he could conceivably learn to be less annoying (only noticed) then  
suppress it with 
effort and eventually buy it off entirely. 
 
All just my takes, and the limitations are extremely subjective I know.   
Hope this 
helps. 
 
PAX, 
John 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
| Name: John P. Weatherman    | Phone:                             |       
   
| email: asahoshi@nr.infi.net |    (H) (910) 785-1130              | 
| fax:   (910) 748-4632       |    (O) (910) 545-2722              | 
|_____________________________|____________________________________| 
| He who walking on the sea could calm the bitter waves, who gives | 
| life to the dying seeds of the earth; He who was able to loose   | 
| the mortal chains of death and after three days' darkness could  | 
| bring again to the upper world the brother of his sister Martha: | 
| He, I beleive, will make Damasus rise again from the dust.       | 
|                              Pope St. Damasus I (c.305-384)      | 
|__________________________________________________________________| 
 
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 97 09:48:41 GMT 
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk 
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Steve McGinness) 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law & Speedster Tricks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 52 
 
At 10:41 AM 9/7/97 +0000, guyhoyle@com.iname wrote: 
>Actually, I'm pretty sure that the vibrate-through-walls schtick  
>originated with Barry Allen in the Silver Age, though the Golden Age  
>Flash has done it since.  I don't think Johnny Quick has shown this  
>ability, though he could fly. 
> 
>Guy 
 
Bollox. Caught!!!! 
 
I think most of my Golden Age experience has come from reprints and reading  
All Star Squadron. Now I'm not sure if Mr Thomas was cheating or not, but  
both the Golden Age Flash and good ol' Johnny Quick did this trick. 
 
 
Stephen 
 
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 97 10:07:09 GMT 
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk 
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Steve McGinness) 
Subject: Re: Hero Games News 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 53 
 
At 02:18 PM 9/7/97, HeroGames@com.aol wrote: 
>An update for you... 
 
Much appreciated too.  
 
>We've shipped off the first four Hero Plus products (Ultimate Super Mage, 
>Ultimate Martial Artist, An Eye For An Eye, and HeroMaker) to distributors a 
>couple of weeks ago, and they are now entering retail stores. Retailers can 
>order them from Wargames West, Liberty Hobby Distributors, or Berkeley Game 
>Distributors; other distributors are being added over the next month. 
 
Are any of these distributors UK based?? Have you any idea whether they will  
be available in the UK using UK money?? 
 
>We're shipping 5 more products from Hero Plus for GenCon: 4 electronic books 
>(Widows&Orphans, a Dark Champions adventure sourcebook; Classic Enemies; 
>Ultimate Mentalist; and Bright Future, an SF campaign book) and The Creation 
>Workshop, a universal RPG utility software package that lets you create 
>things for virtually any RPG (it includes the Fuzion Creator with it). Later 
>this year we plan to ship a Hero Creator and an Interlock Creator, and the 
>program will let you convert characters between game systems automatically. 
 
I've been desperate to buy more Hero stuff for ages! USM I never had any  
chance of getting normally, so I've been waiting to see what would be coming  
out on Hero Plus. 
 
>We've got many more releases lining up for Hero Plus; we're planning for 
>regular releases starting in September. All of the books from that point on 
>will include both Hero System and Fuzion information. We have more Ultimate 
>books, fantasy campaign books, science fiction campaigns, sourcebooks for 
>several genres, and more in the works. 
 
And you will use the list to keep us informed?? 
 
>Have a Heroic Summer, 
>Steve Peterson 
>Hero Games 
 
Stephen McGinness 
 
From: BeerCarboy@aol.com 
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:49:20 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 54 
 
>Hmmm... I was looking through a gaming catalog and I saw a Hero/Champs 
>sourcebook called "Golden Age Champions".  Does anyone know if this is 
>along the same lines as JI, or if it is any good? 
 
Not the same thing at all.  Golden Age Champions is a superhero game which 
simulates the gung-ho low-powered supers of the WWII era.  Justice Inc. was 
the sublime game of pulp adventure in the age of Prohibition, flappers, and 
stock-market booms that were the 1920s.  The characters in JI were larger 
than life, but there abilities were only human (or only slightly beyond human 
and usually weird in nature if they were).  I had more fun playing Justice 
Inc than I have had with any game since, <sigh>. 
 
 
 
 
Carter Humphrey 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
                                                           BeerCarboy@AOL.com 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 10 Jul 97 15:18:00 GMT 
Subject: Looooooooong Arm of the 
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
Path: october!opal 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 21 
 
 
 
 h > >KF> So you would have to get Indirect on your running to walk around  
 h > a wall?  
 h > >  
 h > >Only if Running does not allow one to turn.  
 h >  
 h > Just thought I'd combine two of these threads for a moment.  
 h >  
 h > In the Golden Age comics it was quite common to see Flash or Johnny  
 h > Quick  
 h > vibrate through walls. Would this be a good use of indirect on running  
 h > for a  
 h > speedster???  
 h >  
 h > Stephen McGinness  
  
I've been ignoring the stretching thread in the vain hope it would  
go away.  But, this question is a perfect illustration of how silly  
it's gotten.  
  
(your question isn't silly, the thread is - no flames here)  
  
Indirect is an advantage bought on *attacks* it allows an attack  
to buypass a barrier (or at least it can in many circumstances).  
Nothing about indirect allows the user to, himself pass through  
a barrier.  So, there would be no such thing as indirect runnng -  
instead you would be Desolid or Teleport (or, depending on F/X,  
possibly even Tunnelling) to get that effect.  
  
By the same token, Indirect bought on Stretching is an absurdity -  
Indirect must be purchased on the attack to be affected - in the  
case of stretching, STR or whatever no-range attack the character  
is going to use in conjunction with his Stretching (and even here  
Indirect on a no-range attack is dubious, but I'll ignore that,  
it's not totally absurd).  Either that or go ahead and buy the  
Desolid, Teleport, or Shapechange or whatever will fit best.  
  
Requiring Indirect to reach over fences or around corners is just  
silly.  Seriously, if it's a low wall you can just reach over it,  
Stretching just gives you a longer reach so you can reach over  
higher walls - it'll never get your attack through a spherical  
Force Wall or into a sealed room, things that are what Indirect  
can do for you.  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 10 Jul 97 15:26:02 GMT 
Subject: Mental Flash 
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
Path: october!opal 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 20 
 
 
 
 h > I have a player who came up with a power idea that I am not sure how  
 h > handle.  He want a character who uses flash against the mental sense  
 h > What if any practical combat or non combat effect would this have?  
 h >  
  
The 'Mental Sense Group' consists of Mind Scan and Mental Awareness,  
and any unique senses anyone might want to buy.  I like to include  
Telepathy as well, but that's just me.  
  
Flashing the mental sense group would prevent the victim from  
using Mind Scan while flashed (either initiating it or maintaining  
a 'lock') and from noticing mental powers with Mental Awareness  
  
 h > The same player also wants to have a character who has invisibility  
 h > versus mental sense group.  His reasoning is that Egoist opponents  
 h > not be able to "find" him mentally to attack him since to them his  
 h > simply not there.  
  
Mental Powers can be targeted with any, well, *targeting* sense.  This  
includes normal sight, so if a mentalist can see the 'invisible' character  
(or smell him, if he has Targeting smell, like Probossis), he can  
use a mental power (other than Mind Scan, which would be kind of  
pointless) on him.  
  
If he wants some sort of general immunity to mental powers, he might  
take Damage Reduction or Desolidification against mental powers only,  
as well as the Invisibility.  
  
 h > I think these are interesting concepts but I have no idea how to  
 h > handle them practically.  I don't want to say no to the character, but  
 h > decide just what effect these powers are going to have and how to effec  
 h > build them.  
 h >  
 h > Ideas anyone?????  
 h >  
 h > Patrick B.  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 10 Jul 97 15:45:04 GMT 
Subject: Mental Trance Questions 
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
Path: october!opal 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 22 
 
 
 
 h > Now the questions;  
 h > I am already using Extra Time and Concentrate 0 DCV for the trance,  
 h > this does not reflect the key points.  
 h >  
 h > 1) He doesn*t always remember exactly what he says.  He can have a  
 h > friend or tape recorder handy most of the time, so not much of a  
 h > limitation.  
  
This could be a minor Physical Limitation or a small Limitation on  
the power (just 'limited power' probably for -1/4)  
  
 h > 2) He can*t lie, or prevent himself from revealing what he sees, and  
 h > can*t automatically pull himself from the trance if he doesn*t want to  
 h > say something.  This is the important consideration.  How to I reflect  
 h > such a trance in Hero.  Perhaps an ego roll to exit the trance before h  
 h > all the information, but what is this worth?  
  
This is easy, just make the power 'Visible' (a 1/4 limitation).  
  
 h > leave the area.  Think of a low volume, badly tunned radio.  Could  
 h > this be a disadvantage, such as a mental distinctive feature, or a mino  
 h > Psycho disadvantage.  I would suggest Psycho rather that Phsyc because  
 h > could get rid of this effect with sufficient experience and therapy.  
  
Yes, this would be Distinctive Features: easily concealed, because few  
people have mental powers.  It's not really a psych or phys lim, because  
it doesn't restrict what the character can do (IMHO).  
  
 h > Daniel Flacks  
 h > dflacks@evron.com  
 h >  
 h >  
 h > ---  
 h >  * Origin: Usenet:Fidonet: Red October Gateway (1:143/241.0)  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Mental Flash 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 10 Jul 1997 12:32:01 -0400 
Lines: 38 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 56 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes: 
 
JaRP> Yes, but if someone is trying to communicate with you via mental 
JaRP> powers, it seems valid that if you've been Mental Group Flashed that 
JaRP> you can't "hear" the communication. You'd be 'headblind' - unable to 
JaRP> recieve telepathic transmissions. 
 
The problem with analogies is that they are all broken in some regard.  You 
cannot really compare mental senses with any other because by nature it is 
completely different from them, so you have to work from what is given. 
 
What is given is two mental senses: mind scan and mental awareness.  A 
mental flash will affect these, since they are senses.  But as they are not 
needed to receive telepathic contact it stands to reason that flashing them 
will not prevent Telepathy.  Likewise, since none of the mental senses are 
required to be affected by any other mental power it is dubious that a 
mental flash will prevent them from working, either. 
 
And by the way, being sound flashed does *NOT* render one immune to sonic 
attacks except by certain special effects. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBM8UOUp6VRH7BJMxHAQGk/QQAu3Fa3xDs+n9UtEM/jrpfRcWRVeRxLauE 
AcMmKbDxJ+jtYwQ0YG19z+HAbe2VD5hEyaAFzVTwNl0lkG6kuWm/WszmJ630aLhB 
cNIbInLLh2/9hYwyqHXGKVOFBzl8w4ZPxbz/0xrnnbywi47wZvyynE6Ri0I/2HGh 
f6O+U9BjDYA= 
=SYlX 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Losing an Arm and a Leg 
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 14:42:02 -0400 (EDT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Does regeneration bring back lost limbs?  Or would you need 
a 0 END, Persistant, Continuous, Uncontrolled Aid or Transform? 
 
Also, is it just me, or does regeneration seem rather cheap? 
I mean, for 20 CP, you can heal a gunshot wound within a couple 
of minutes, as opposed to a month or two.  I mean, what would you 
rather have, 2 BODY/turn of Regeneration, or 4" of Stretching  
(2-3" if you want to stretch around walls, depending on your GM)? 
Also, it costs more to regenerate 5 BODY every week than to regenerate 
1 BODY every turn!     
 
-Eric 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net> 
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 18:51:56 +0000 
Subject: Re: Package Deals 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 1 
 
 
> My most recent Champions character is, among other things, a 
> professional dancer, a motorcycle and automobile mechanic, and an 
> accomplished musician. None of these things have any direct bearing 
> on the campaign and have nil use within it aside from character 
> background, so the GM decided that the cost was likewise nil.  I did 
> buy "Mechanic", though, just in case.  It is potentially too useful 
> a skill to wave away. 
 
I would recommend getting all of those. PS:automobile mechanic would  
help you find parts, and may make it easier to repair cars. I would  
consider it a complimentary skill, otherwise anyone with Mechanics  
skill is equally good at repairing cars, motorcycles, airplanes,  
helicopters, etc. PS: Dancer might help with distractions,  
approaching certain people and places, and getting information from  
the entertainment community. Similar advantages may be found for  
musician. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Cc: "'burns@usmcug.usm.maine.edu'" <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Multiforms and Multilimbs On-line 
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 15:46:41 -0400 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
My Power Point article on Multiforms and Multilimbs is on-line now, at 
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/1905/haym07.html 
 
The extra limb as extra head rule presented here made it into The 
Ultimate Mentalist! 
 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Losing an Arm and a Leg 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 10 Jul 1997 16:27:15 -0400 
Lines: 32 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "EB" == Eric Burns <burns@usmcug.usm.maine.edu> writes: 
 
EB> Does regeneration bring back lost limbs? 
 
Depends on the campaign.  In other words, it is a GM's call. 
 
[...] 
 
EB> Also, is it just me, or does regeneration seem rather cheap?  I mean, 
EB> for 20 CP, you can heal a gunshot wound within a couple of minutes, as 
EB> opposed to a month or two. 
 
Sure, you can heal a single gunshot wound in a few minutes.  Try doing that 
with thirty occouring in rapid succession. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBM8VFmZ6VRH7BJMxHAQEdQwP/QnAqlS6b+lA83wzVAbAkmtiJsZzTOG/N 
OSNiIDHD5p7tOH4ZVovqk99aAKjM9vIuYglKyHw56aMZ8+8Fb/a684x4dWj4HQ+4 
cWshPc05dpzRTQjsbdpkZC9gScvtWmkpUydssutpzuU+m43s0DBFLh9201tZ5Iyb 
t4ZumWe76jo= 
=gAAa 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Package Deals 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 10 Jul 1997 17:22:55 -0400 
Lines: 47 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "RJ" == R Jacobs <rjacobs@radiks.net> writes: 
 
RJ>      HERO system games have no way, to my knowledge, of handling default 
RJ> skills (with the exception of Everyman Skills).  One GM says "If you 
RJ> want a college degree you have to purchase EVERYTHING that goes into 
RJ> that degree" and another GM says "Just buy the Professional Skill and 
RJ> you get 'X' amount of assumed knowledge".  Why not use a default skill 
RJ> roll? 
 
First of all, "Everyman Skills" is basically a kind of package deal that 
"everyone" gets.  Because everyone gets (and because the use is limited) it 
the cost is nil. 
 
The reason for not having skill defaults like GURPS is that it is a lot of 
bookwork.  And generally speaking, one of the fundamental concepts of the 
Hero system is that if you did not pay for it you do not have it.  But 
there is a rational balance for this: if it has no bearing on the game then 
it probably has no cost.  The same should go for other background skills a 
character might have that are expected to have no relevance in the context 
of the game -- and if on the off chance that one does become relevant the 
GM should "dock" you a few experience points to pay for the skill during 
the session it comes up. 
 
My most recent Champions character is, among other things, a professional 
dancer, a motorcycle and automobile mechanic, and an accomplished musician. 
None of these things have any direct bearing on the campaign and have nil 
use within it aside from character background, so the GM decided that the 
cost was likewise nil.  I did buy "Mechanic", though, just in case.  It is 
potentially too useful a skill to wave away. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBM8VSq56VRH7BJMxHAQFaLQQAiI9Q/i+hq0k3+R5QFPPjgBeGun2PN7Mk 
LuGrcjjWcDrdS3DlJWu9SyQvE+4E7N834ReZBirw1U9Sz6nx7GTZ9gsl0k+aiGFK 
QPU+3QAi9VCUjDkJk9Op2n75+eokV3lz5SlzEbCV3aZ9njX7XHwHjjc82Wv4JGOR 
mOBk+Kb4yTY= 
=W0Z0 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 18:18:33 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Package Deals 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 10 Jul 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> My most recent Champions character is, among other things, a professional 
> dancer, a motorcycle and automobile mechanic, and an accomplished musician. 
> None of these things have any direct bearing on the campaign and have nil 
> use within it aside from character background, so the GM decided that the 
> cost was likewise nil.  I did buy "Mechanic", though, just in case.  It is 
> potentially too useful a skill to wave away. 
 
Which is almost the exact opposite of my opinion as GM.  For a character 
like the one presented above, I'd prefer it if the character possesed at 
least an 8- Mechanics Skill, as well as PS: Dancer and PS: Musician (also 
8-).  Granted, any PC gets one PS for free, so that would probaly cover 
the PS: Auto Mechanic.  I personally don't mind pushing a few extra points 
into KS and PS skills.  They may not come up often (or ever) but at least 
the character shows expenses that can be used to back up character claims.   
 
At the very least, any published character should have these sort of 
skills written in.  It makes for a more 'complete' character, and for some 
one like Rat's GM, it's not a big deal to remove or ignore.  And anything 
is better than some of these 300+ point character that I've seen in some 
Enemies books that apparently don't know or do anything other than commit 
crimes (which isn't all that unlikely, but anyone who spends a lot of time 
involved in illicit activites should have things like KS: Cuty Underworld, 
or Streetwise...) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 18:22:40 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Package Deals 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>     WhiteFeather, a Native American character whose totem is a puma, 
>has a 30 DEX when in puma-form.  A 30 DEX means the character has an 
>ungodly (dare I say, 'superhuman') sense of balance, agility, and 
>reflexes.  She does not possess the skill ACROBATICS.  Should she be 
>prohibited from performing ANY Acrobatics maneuvers, SOME Acrobatics 
>manuevers with penalties, or should her 'natural talent' (i.e. HIGH DEX) 
>give her some default skill level? 
 
It depends on what you call Acrobatics. Walking on a narrow ledge is not 
acrobatics. Doing backflips is. As I read the skill in the BBB, Acrobatics 
lets you 'pull off' acrobatic maneuvers and still be able to fight - so raw 
DEX may allow you to bounce off that flagpole, but you'll be at 1/2DCV when 
you do it and can't combine it with an attack maneuver (at least, that would 
be my ruling as a GM - attack roll to hit/grab the flagpole, DEX roll to do 
anything more than hang on for dear life). Having the Acrobatics skill also 
lets you pull off stuff that would normally require a DEX roll 
'effortlessly' - like walking on that narrow ledge. 
 
Most action movie heroes, for example, obviously don't have Acrobatics 
(well, Jackie Chan does, but most others don't). But at the same time, they 
still pull off some impressive stunts - off the top of my head, Mel Gibson 
in Lethal Weapon 3 (?) driving a motorcycle off an incomplete bridge, but 
grabbing a rope and swinging to...well, at least he survived. Somebody with 
Acrobatics could have pulled this off without crashing through several 
plywood floors and dislocating his shoulder, I'm sure. Or Bruce Willis in 
Die Hard, trapped outside the building holding onto a fire-hose. Not the 
most graceful thing in the world, but he did get out of it alive. If he had 
Acrobatics he probably could have swung away from the window, blown it open 
with his guns, swung in, landed on his (bare, bloody) feet and been ready to 
kick ass - instead of almost getting dragged out again by the hose reel... 
 
So, anyway, some Acrobatics are possible without the skill. Anything that 
would be graceful or efficient, however, is pretty much out. 
 
>     This brings us to the question of 'When do I need to make a skill 
>roll?'   Should skill rolls only be made when attempting things out of 
>the ordinary....in the case above, with WhiteFeather: 
> 
>     IF WhiteFeather did have Acrobatics she would not have to make 
>skill rolls for routine maneuvers...only for things deemed exceptional 
>but since she doesn't possess Acrobatics EVERY maneuver is considered 
>exceptional and she therefore must always make a skill roll... 
 
Not a skill roll, an Attribute roll. 
> 
>     Which leads us full circle to:  "What is a good default skill 
>roll"? 
 
There isn't one. 'Default' skills don't exist - that's what Attributes are for. 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 18:22:45 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>> fun. Reminds me of...The Wizard! Remember that TV show? Midget inventor and 
>> his assistant, apprentice, various and sundry others? Loads of fun, that one 
>> - too bad it lacked the appeal to last (it made what, one season? Two?) Then 
>> there was Tales From the Brass Monkey... 
 
>That's "Tales of the Gold Monkey", the adventures of Jake, Corky, and of  
>course, Jack- the dog with the glass eye.  A wonderful pulp adventure. 
 
Yeah, right, though the monkey WAS made of brass. And I just loved that 
plane (what's that model called again?). TV needs more pulp adventure...too 
bad it doesn't pull in the viewers. Nothing like 'two-fisted' adventure... 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"flacksd@evron.com\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 97 22:36:32  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Mental Trance Questions 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:46:11 -0500, flacksd@evron.com wrote: 
 
>I have a few questions for the list regarding mental powers and trances.  
>I will give the background information first and then ask my questions.  
>This concerns a PC I am running in an existing game (The Hughes 
>Academy PBEM), so any changes will have to be approved but the GM.  
>Still, I plan to use the character concept again in a different game, so any 
>suggestions are appreciated.  The character is called Powerball, due to 
>his other powers. 
> 
> 
>Character Background 
>When Powerball was 12 he began to experience the occasional Psychic 
>phenomena.  He once called every die roll in a Monopoly game.  He had 
>similar experiences, such as turning a lamp on and off by thinking at it.  
>The only phenomena he could regularly accomplish were Precognition 
>and Psychometry.  He used a deck of cards to focus his precognition. 
> 
>Psychometry is sensing the past through contact with a specific item.  
>The psychic impressions received depend on the emotional attachments 
>of the object.  You get more from a priced possession than a piece of 
>used gum.  The traditional example is that a mirror broken during a murder 
>might reveal emotions of hate and fear, but the murder weapon itself may 
>reveal an image of the killer.   
> 
>Whenever he used one of these two psychic abilities he would first 
>have to put himself into a trance.  This took time and required his 
>complete concentration.  There are two problems with a trance.  You do 
>not always remember what you have said, and more importantly, it is 
>nearly impossible to lie or stop yourself from talking. 
> 
>When he was in grade 8 a girl at school asked him to perform a card 
>reading on her.  In his trance state he could not prevent himself from 
>revealing that the cards said she would soon die from a disease.  She 
>ran from the room in tears.  He did not know that she was in remission.  
>He never saw her again.  Within six months she was dead.  The 
>experience traumatized him.  He realized that he might have been partially 
>responsible.  Maybe when she heard his prediction she stopped fighting 
>her disease and allowed herself to die.  From that point on he swore 
>never to predict the future again.  He is terrified of precognition, and this 
>has made him nervous around psychics in general.  He has only recently 
>started trying his Psychometry again, as the past is much safer than the 
>future.  In order for him to use precognition, or any of his other mental 
>abilities, again would require more than just training, some serious 
>psychotherapy would be required. 
> 
>Now the questions; 
>I am already using Extra Time and Concentrate 0 DCV for the trance, but 
>this does not reflect the key points. 
 
Don't forget the OIF pack of cards (he can't read the future without 
cards, but cards are dead common) 
 
>1) He doesn*t always remember exactly what he says.  He can have a 
>friend or tape recorder handy most of the time, so not much of a 
>limitation. 
 
-1/4 at most - this is a group game! 
 
>2) He can*t lie, or prevent himself from revealing what he sees, and he 
>can*t automatically pull himself from the trance if he doesn*t want to say 
>something.  This is the important consideration.  How to I reflect such a 
>trance in Hero.  Perhaps an ego roll to exit the trance before he get all the 
>information, but what is this worth? 
 
Ego Roll to exit trance -1/4, and Visible to represent the divulging of 
what he sees. 
 
>Finally, there is a side effect of his suppressed mental abilities.  He leaks 
>telepathically. 
 
Easy: Noisy -1/2 
 
qts 
 
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 19:05:56 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>TV needs more pulp adventure...too bad it doesn't pull in the 
>>viewers. Nothing like 'two-fisted' adventure... 
> 
>What about Xena and Hercules (and the lesser cousins, Robin Hood, Sinbad, 
>and Tarzan)? 
 
They pull in viewers based on sex appeal, just like Baywatch...and they owe 
more, IMHO, to wild Hong Kong Kung Fu flicks than to Indiana Jones/Phantom 
style pulp adventure... 
 
Oh. Other good 'pulp' stuff - a cross between pulp private eye and cthulhu 
mythos..."To Cast A Deadly Spell" and (I think) "The Witching Hour", HBO 
Specials you can find in your video store (I think the name on the second is 
wrong, though...anyone?). 
 
And the Disney cartoon "Tale Spin" has a lot in common with "Tales from the 
Golden Monkey". Disney hasn't put out anything to match it since (well, 
maybe Darkwing Duck, which was fun, but not very pulp-ey). 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net> 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 01:43:12 +0000 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 9 
 
 
> Anyone managed to find a happy medium? (FWIW, I calculated that a 
> tank could take about two hits from its own main gun...so a tank is 
> about as tough as two average people!) 
>  
> I have been thinking about souping up heavy artillery by buying an 
> extra die or two of RKA, NND, Defense is being, in the GMs opinion, 
> able to stand up to heavy artillery. This would include troops in 
> 'high tech' power armor, but not kevlar;superheroes, but not large 
> animals;etc. A total kludge, basically. 
 
In Ninja Hero, there was a suggestion for an optional rule that may  
help. If half the BODY damage of an attack is sufficient to penetrate  
a barrier, then the barrier has no effect on the attack. So, if you  
do 35 STUN, 10 BODY to a barrier that has only 5 BODY, the barrier  
has no effect. 
 
It occurred to me that this rule could also apply to personal armor,  
or even to PD and ED, for a more realistic campaign. In Hero, even  
a fairly average ballistic vest will save a man from a .50 cal.  
machine gun (at least he'll live), while in real life it probably  
wouldn't have any significant effect. However, if this optional rule  
is applied to personal armor, then a heavy enough weapon would ignore  
the armor. This explains why .50 machine guns (3d6, rounds are often  
AP) will easily kill a man in a standard ballistic vest in real life.  
If used on PD and ED, it also explains why explosions and falling are  
so deadly in real life, if the damage is sufficient. 
 
This may help. Additionally, I would recommend that the Impairing,  
Disabling, and Bleeding rules be used with massive attacks, against  
people with a high BODY. This increases the lethality of the game, so  
if you only want really big attacks to have this increased lethality,  
then only use these optional rules with really big attacks. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 13:20:39 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happy <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: more rifts stuff ect 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 2 
 
At 04:31 PM 7/9/97 -0500, you wrote: 
 
>>u-huh? and mechanics is what counts? well, in that case, hero's the least 
>original game ever!  
> 
>We're talking Palladium here.  The mechanics and the "special effects" are 
>pretty much identical.  For example, it's a little screwy when magic works 
>identically in their fantasy game, their superhero game, and their 
>meta-genre game, considering it's NOT a "generic" magic system -- why should 
>superheroes have the exact same limited spell list as medieval mages?  Why 
>would the exact same cybernetic advances be made in the far-flung future of 
>Rifts as in the advanced 20th century world of Ninjas and Superspies?  Et 
>cetera, ad infinitum. 
> 
 
once again- i'm pointing out that you can IGNORE the mechanics! just use the setting! 
give the mages vpp's! 
 
 
 
 
>>puh-lease! let's face it- my point is still valid.  
> 
>Golly gee willickers, I can't beat (non)logic like that. 
> 
 
yeah, it does look illogical once it's been cut out of context. . .. .  
 
 
 
>>i know- this is a problem of their. . and a problem of hero's too, imho. .  
> 
>But HERO's a generic roleplaying system with no set campaign.  You know 
>you're getting into a "build it yourself" situation when you buy it.  Rifts 
>is ostensibly a one-campaign RPG, like Shadowrun or Star Wars.  Since it's 
>apparently intended to play "Rifts genre" adventures, it's IMPORTANT to know 
>what a "Rifts genre" adventure is; whereas with HERO, you just configure the 
>rules to whatever genre you had in mind all along. 
> 
 
no, you can't suggest that- BOTH have weak campaign cohesion, ect. Just because you  
think people playing hero 'jnow what they're in for' does not change that point.  
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 22:51:55 -0700 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Decompressing damage... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 3 
 
I am working on a campaign which will include characters at a wide range of 
power levels, but slanted heavily towards the Heroic, as opposed to 
4-color. In looking through Almanac II, I noticed that the main cannon of a 
tank does 5d6KA, or an average of 18 BODY. Joe Average won't even be 
instantly killed (he'll die Real Soon, though), and someone of above 
average BODY (say, 15) and readily available body armor (DEF 7-8) will 
still be quite alive, albeit VERY unconscious.  
 
The alternative, however, is the more 'realistic' damage of GURPS, where 
you roll 6d6*20 and soak up everyone, normal joe or superhero, with a damp 
cloth. 
 
Anyone managed to find a happy medium? (FWIW, I calculated that a tank 
could take about two hits from its own main gun...so a tank is about as 
tough as two average people!) 
 
I have been thinking about souping up heavy artillery by buying an extra 
die or two of RKA, NND, Defense is being, in the GMs opinion, able to stand 
up to heavy artillery. This would include troops in 'high tech' power 
armor, but not kevlar;superheroes, but not large animals;etc. A total 
kludge, basically. 
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 23:00:52 -0700 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: List archives 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 4 
 
Is there an archive (or a FAQ) for this list? I'd like to avoid hauling 
forth zombie horses to be beaten. 
 
From: BeerCarboy@aol.com 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:50:42 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Losing an Arm and a Leg 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 5 
 
>Also, it costs more to regenerate 5 BODY every week than to regenerate 
>1 BODY every turn!     
Yup, the very first character I designed using 4th ed was going to have some 
slow Regeneration like that but when I realized the price difficulty I wound 
up giving him the standard Regeneration instead. 
Now what about dependence?  If I require an Uncommon substance (which could 
also be illegal and dangerous to obtain) once every FIVE hours or take 1d6 
damage it would be worth no points, while apparently if I needed it once a 
day or less often it would COST me points!  I think the real problem may be 
the time chart more than anything else (if I need something Uncommon or 
suffer 3d6 every month {unrecoverable damage until I satisfy my dependency} 
again no points; if I need something Uncommon every segment or take 1d6 
damage I only get 30 pts and unless I have a 12 SPD, and Life Support:needs 
not eat, sleep or excrete {and spend all my time feeding my addiction rather 
than, oh, fighting crime} it is a disadvantage that will kill me). 
 
Carter Humphrey 
 
 
 
 
 
                                                           BeerCarboy@AOL.com 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 97 09:23:14 GMT 
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk 
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Steve McGinness) 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 6 
 
At 10:51 PM 10/7/97 -0700, Lizard wrote: 
>tank does 5d6KA, or an average of 18 BODY. Joe Average won't even be 
>instantly killed (he'll die Real Soon, though), and someone of above 
>average BODY (say, 15) and readily available body armor (DEF 7-8) will 
>still be quite alive, albeit VERY unconscious.  
 
First thing to say is that the main cannon from a tank is not generally used  
as anti-personnel, it is in fact a very cumbersome way of dealing with such  
opponents, that is why they put all those heavy machine guns and flame  
throwers on them!! :-) 
 
If the cannon _was_ fired at a human opponent then it is unlikely that the  
damage potential _would_ result in overwhelming killdeath scenarios, the  
shell would have every possibility of just ploughing through the target and  
the explosive damage wouldn't occur (I'd still apply the 5D6K though!!). If  
the target was in the area of the explosion caused by the shell then they  
would take the damage and also they would have all kinds of damage from the  
resultant knockback. Taking this into account and the disabling wounds rules  
etc you would get exactly what you want. 
 
>Anyone managed to find a happy medium? (FWIW, I calculated that a tank 
>could take about two hits from its own main gun...so a tank is about as 
>tough as two average people!) 
 
Following what I said above the tank is exactly the kind of targetthe main  
cannon was designed to take out! Therefore two hits is quite reasonable, the  
heavy machine gun would however have no effect on the tank whereas it would  
take out dozens of average people. So by the same logic the tank is harder  
than dozens of average people. 
 
>I have been thinking about souping up heavy artillery by buying an extra 
>die or two of RKA, NND, Defense is being, in the GMs opinion, able to stand 
>up to heavy artillery. This would include troops in 'high tech' power 
>armor, but not kevlar;superheroes, but not large animals;etc. A total 
>kludge, basically. 
> 
If you dont want to stick to the Champions rules then it is possible that  
you could use a similar thing to how they manage this in Star Wars. There  
they have different damage classes so that they don't need to use huge  
amounts of dice to differentiate between vehicle class damage and personnel  
class damage. 
 
 
Stephen McGinness 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 97 09:35:57 GMT 
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk 
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Steve McGinness) 
Subject: Re: Losing an Arm and a Leg 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 7 
 
At 02:42 PM 10/7/97, Eric Burns wrote: 
>Also, it costs more to regenerate 5 BODY every week than to regenerate 
>1 BODY every turn!     
 
That's a bad use of the rules rather than a bad rule. You could better  
simulate the 5 BODY per week by purchasing 1 BODY per day. (OK that is 7  
BODY per week, but I'll bet that it costs less than 1 BODY per turn!). 
 
 
Stephen McGinness 
 
From: Chuff78002@aol.com 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 05:41:55 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 10 
 
In a message dated 09/07/97  07:22:14am, you write: 
 
<<  
 >How many 'ordinary folks' RPGs out there have made it? Twilight 2000? 
 >(mostly military - has 'big gun' appeal). Millenium's End (same deal - 
 >espionage and military coolness). What did IJ have? Archeological 
 >expeditions and Nazis (tm)? Was that enough? 
 > 
  
 it was a classic pulp-style movie! you confuse the genre- remember, just  
 'cause indy chases coffins (and what about all his fancy whip tricks?) 
 doesn't mean the pc's do- and what about all the supernatural stuff? 
 Many heroes and villans have indy-type origins- what about a secret  
 origins type campaign based around a bunch of archeologists? 
 "ok, folks, only one of your characters will survive the  
 archairc tomb of the death crusaders, but the one that does 
 get's super powers, and can join my mystery man campaign!" >> 
 
What everyone forgets when mentioning the Indiana Jones rpg game is that, 
like Judge Dredd rpg, the stats are given for Indy as an npc ! 
Besides which to be truthful the combat system in masterbook is crap !  All 
this take a k or an o milarky turned me right off it.  The first time I dm'd 
using IJ rpg material for reference, I just converted it to the Star Wars 
rules. 
 
As fo CoC, it's a great game and in the uk is played by a wider age group 
then indicated on the list.  In fact I played CoC for two years before 
reading ANY Lovecraft works at all.  As a player all I cared about was the 
survrival of the investigating squad, and not going loopy. 
 
Rifts I cannot comment on as I've never played it, and to be honest I don't 
want to particularly.  (I've just purchased Deadlands the Wierd West now 
there's a cool  
game ! ) 
 
As for this brain candy stuff, unless I'm missing the point somewhere, then I 
feel that the gaming industry should cater for as many tastes as possible. 
 My own gaming tastes vary greatly from AD&D (yes, I still play it ! ) to 
Hero, to White Wolf's Mage and Werewolf (not played much Vampire, but I liked 
it.  Wraith sucks ) to CoC, even Ghostbusters ! 
If I enjoy a game then I'll play it again. ( And yes, Fuzion is cool !)  Even 
games I didn't enjoy may still throw up the occaisional supplement that I 
could still use elsewhere.  It seems that some gamers tend to have a very 
blinkered view of what good gaming is all about. 
As an example to follow the IJ one, I recently ran the Golden Heroes scenario 
Queen Victoria and the Holy Grail and converted it to Masque of the Red Death 
which is AD&D Ravenloft Gothic Earth stuff....just concentrate on the magical 
side of ,it and ignore the supers stuff.  It worked a treat and nobody 
realised where I got the adventure from .  The games are flexible enough, 
pity some gamers and gm's aren't the same...... 
 
Chuff78002. 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net> 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:56:31 +0000 
Subject: Re: Info needed on US Currency. 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> Yeah, this may look off topic, but I need the following information 
> for a scenario... 
>  
> 1. How do you check a US banknote to see if it's genuine? 
 
Several ways. Older bills have small red and blue threads in them.  
Additionally, the threads can be lifted free with a pin or needle,  
unlike virtually any counterfeit. Additionally, the bills burn funny,  
and almost any counterfeit can be spotted if examined carefully by  
anyone who is really familiar with US currency, or if you have a  
real bill side by side with it. 
 
Newer bills have thin plastic strips in them. If held up to the  
light, you can read the denomination (spelled out) and "USA" through  
the paper. The higher the denomination, the older a bill can be and  
still have the plastic strip. One dollar bills do not generally have  
them yet. 
 
In March of '96, the United States released a new form of $100 bill.  
The new bills have portions with reflective ink, to prevent copying  
via color copiers and scanners combined with color printers. They are  
printed darker than older bills (Often resulting in slightly rough  
printing. Probably intended to increase lifespan.) The picture on the  
front of Benjamin Franklin is off center, with a watermark on the  
other end, showing a different picture of Franklin. They also have  
the plastic strip mentioned above. 
 
Similar bills in lower denominations are scheduled, with releases  
roughly one per year, going down the values one at a time. 
 
Finally, the ink is slightly conductive, which is part of the way  
that dollar bill changers recognize them. Interesting side point- if  
a bill changer doesn't accept a bill, try moistening it slightly  
down the center, lengthwise. 
 
  
> 2. What denominations are there? 
 
Coins include pennies (1/100th of a dollar), nickles (1/20th), dimes  
(1/10th), quarters (1/4), half-dollars, and two forms of one dollar  
coins. The Susan B. Anthony still exists, but is very unpopular and  
rarely seen, because it is almost exactly the diameter and thickness  
of a quarter, and were often used that way. The so-called silver  
dollar is larger, but almost as well. The U.S. stopped issuing real  
silver coins, because they had too high of nuismatic value, and there  
were more silver certificates in circulation than silver dollars in  
the treasury. Silver certificates were generally $1, and are still  
currency, but are probably worth more as curiosities. 
 
Bills still being printed include one dollar, five dollars, ten  
dollars, twenty dollars, fifty dollars, and hundred dollars.  
Previously, there were five hundreds, thousands, and ten thousands.  
The treasury discontinued these some time ago, possibly to inhibit  
criminals, who like cash. Some suggestions to do the same with  
hundreds and fifties (to inhibit the illicit drug trade) have  
luckily not gone anywhere. 
 
 
 
> 3. In how many different places are they printed? 
>  
 
They are printed in only two places- Washington, D.C. and Fort Worth,  
Texas. 
 
Additionally, there are Federal Reserve Banks, which is the backbone  
of the US banking system. If you try to withdraw $100,000 from your  
local bank, the Reserve Bank is where they get it from, since they  
don't keep it on site. There are twelve district banks, in Boston,  
New York, Philadelphia, Cleveland, Richmond, Atlanta, Chicago, St.  
Louis, Minneapolis, Kansas City, Dallas, and San Francisco. There are  
thirty-five branch banks scattered around the country, as well. 
 
> If anyone can help me, I'd be most grateful... 
>  
> Gordon 
>  
> __________________________________________________________ 
>  
> If anybody has seen a sigfile around here,  please hand it in at the 
> desk 
>  
 
Pleased to be of service. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
From: ErolB1@aol.com 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 08:11:56 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Shrinking point pool? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 15 
 
In a message dated 97-07-10 18:52:27 EDT, lizard@dnai.com writes: 
 
> >Of course, constant powers (e.g. Force Field or Force Wall) will bring in 
>  >complications. Is this why you don't find END battery to give the right 
>  >'feel'? 
>   
>  Largely. Also, the main use for this power is actually for FH wizards. I 
>  want wizards who have a fixed amount of 'power' to use, and can use it to 
>  cast any spell they know..learning a spell should only cost a point. They 
>  will 'know' more spells than they could hope to cast in a reasonable time 
>  period. The knowledge of the spells and the raw power of the mage become 
>  seperate things...this permits the 'Mageborn' character with a huge power 
>  pool but who has learned only a single simple spell (which he can cast a 
>  dozen times), and the 'scholar', who knows a great deal of magic but can 
>  only cast one or two spells before running out of juice. The reason I 
don't 
>  like END battery is a)continuing spells, and, b)I like magic to drain the 
>  mages own reserves of energy (I usually use 'Mental END' equal to 
(EGO+INT).) 
>  
 
Maybe my mind's in a rut, but I *still* think that an END Reserve is the way 
to go. It just will require special tweaking of the Recovery and the spells' 
END costs to get the right 'feel.' For example, continuing spells might have 
a Limitation "10x END cost when first cast, 1x END cost thereafter (-2)" And 
you might give all spells a special "Costs END (-1/2)" limitation to 
represent that the spells must pay *two* END costs when used - an inflated 
one paid from the END Reserve, and a normal one paid from the END 
Characteristic.  
 
Erol K. Bayburt 
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow 
 
 
From: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 97 09:17:09 -0400 
Subject: Re: Info needed on US Currency. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 18 
 
In <SIMEON.9707111357.A@pclibp019.ukc.ac.uk&> on 07/11/97  
   at 01:57 PM, "Gordon W. Rycroft" <gwr1@ukc.ac.uk> said: 
 
>Yeah, this may look off topic, but I need the following information for a 
>scenario... 
 
>1. How do you check a US banknote to see if it's genuine? 
 
With great difficulty.  With low denominations (under $20), there really 
is no method built into the money, with higher denominations there is a 
thin strip woven into the paper with a small amount of writing on it - for 
a twenty dollar bill it says "USA TWENTY USA TWENTY USA TWENTY USA TWENTY 
USA TWENTY" with half fo the words upside-down. 
 
>2. What denominations are there? 
 
1 Dollar 
5 Dollar 
10 Dollar 
20 Dollar 
50 Dollar 
100 Dollar 
500 Dollar (discontinued in 1945) 
1000 Dollar (discontinued in 1945) 
10000 Dollar (discontinued in 1945) 
 
The discontinued bills are still considered legal tender, but are no 
longer printed. 
 
 
 
>3. In how many different places are they printed? 
 
12, the site the bill was printed is denoted by a large letter in a circle 
with the name of the bank printed around it, as well as a number with 
appears in four places on the bill. 
 
Here's the list of places, in no particular order though: 
 
Federal Reserve Bank of Boston 
Federal Reserve Bank of New York 
Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta 
Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland 
Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond 
Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City 
Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago 
Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis 
Federal Reserve Bank of Philidelphia 
Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis 
Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas 
Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco 
 
 
 
>If anyone can help me, I'd be most grateful... 
 
>Gordon 
 
>__________________________________________________________ 
 
>If anybody has seen a sigfile around here,  please hand it in at the desk 
 
 
 
For more esoteric information try http://www.bep.treas.gov/index.htm 
 
 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
john.desmarais@ibm.net 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net> 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 13:20:14 +0000 
Subject: Re: Mental Flash 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> >>>>> "O" == Opal <Opal@october.com> writes: 
>  
> O> Mental Powers can be targeted with any, well, *targeting* sense. 
>  
> No, mental powers, like all other powers that may be used to make 
> attacks, may be targeted with *ANY* sense, targeting or otherwise.  
> With a targeting sense one has one's full O(E)CV; with a 
> non-targeting sense one has O(E)CV penalties. 
>  
 
The description of mental powers states that line of sight is  
required; it says nothing about whether a line of sight is the  
ability to see the target, or the ability to reach the target  
without barriers, when drawing a straight line. Either one, and you  
cannot go through an opaque barrier, regardless of range or how well  
you hear (smell, etc) the target. 
 
The description of Based Upon EGO Combat Value states it outright,  
you must _see_ the target. 
 
The BBB is unclear on this, but at various times it has been stated  
that a targeting sense is necessary for EGO combat. 
 
> Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to 
> certain types PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 09:33:01 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: more rifts stuff ect 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 17 
 
 
>>>u-huh? and mechanics is what counts? well, in that case, hero's the least 
>>original game ever!  
>> 
>>We're talking Palladium here.  The mechanics and the "special effects" are 
>>pretty much identical.  
> 
>once again- i'm pointing out that you can IGNORE the mechanics! just use 
the setting! 
>give the mages vpp's! 
 
"Once again"? I don't recall you singing this tune before (I apologize if 
you have said this before, but the impression I've gotten from you is "The 
source material is great, so forgive the bad mechanics and play anyways, 
it's a quality product.")...anyway, if you play Rifts with HERO mechanics, 
you aren't playing Rifts - you're playing HERO in the Rifts setting 
(heh..I'll bet Kevin Siembedina will back me up on this one, whatever that's 
worth - but let's not get into Kevin right now). When people say 'Rifts 
sucks' they usually mean 'the mechanics suck and the setting is imbalanced'. 
I could play 'Wizards' under the HERO system - that doesn't change the fact 
that Wizards, in large part, sucked (hell, it completely sucked...). 
 
Anyway, a lot of us are saying 'the mechanics of Palladium sucks, and there 
are tremendous logical gaps in the setting material'. Your saying 'but the 
background material is good!' doesn't change that fact. I like a lot of the 
background material in Rifts. But under Palladium mechanics, I don't want to 
play the game (too much aggrivation and inconsistancy) - therefore, IMHO, it 
sucks as an RPG (but not a source material). 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 08:50:33 -0500 
From: Jerry & Jamie Nealis <jnealis@OnRamp.NET> 
Reply-To: jnealis@OnRamp.NET 
Subject: Re: Info needed on US Currency. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 19 
 
Gordon W. Rycroft wrote: 
>  
> Yeah, this may look off topic, but I need the following information for a scenario... 
>  
> 1. How do you check a US banknote to see if it's genuine? 
 
the easiest way is to burn it.... it does not burn like normal paper.... 
it smolders more and has a thicker ash...... also microscopic viewing 
will detect the cloth threads mixed in with the paper fibers.... plus I 
think the inks have a minor magnetic quality..... at least I think I 
read that somewhere.... and newer bills have micro text hidden on them 
and the new $100 also contains a plastic stip and watermarks.... there's 
more but I'm not sure.... you may want to look up some US Treasury pages 
or something along those lines 
 
> 2. What denominations are there? 
 
there are several...... 
 
coins: penny -1 cent 1/100th of a dollar.... nickle 5cents.... dime 
10cents.... quarter 25cents..... half dollar also called a 50cent piece 
.... and two 1 dollar coins (both a bit hard to find) the Suzan B 
Anthony and the Silver Dollar.... many years ago there were also $5, $10 
and $20 gold coins... but those are no longer in circulation 
 
Paper: all notes are of the same size and use the same green ink in all 
it's shades from black to a pale leaf color.... the Values are $1, $2 
(rare), $5, $10, $20, $50, $100, $500 and $1000 (both very rare)... if 
there are higher denominations they are almost never used anymore 
 
 
> 3. In how many different places are they printed? 
 
there are several.... I know of 3 right off hand.... Dallas, Texas--- 
Cleavland, Ohio---- Atlanta, Georgia..... and there are more... I think 
in Florida.... surely in California and Washington DC..... once again I 
think a search on US Federal Reserves might help 
  
> If anyone can help me, I'd be most grateful... 
>  
> Gordon 
>  
> __________________________________________________________ 
>  
> If anybody has seen a sigfile around here,  please hand it in at the desk 
 
 
Jerry aka 
 
Puzzleboy---Foxbat's Best Friend 
 
Insert Sigfile Here 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Multipowers ... getting cost correctly figured 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 11 Jul 1997 11:13:04 -0400 
Lines: 28 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 23 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "S" == Salmon,David <David_Salmon@mc.xerox.com> writes: "S" == 
>>>>> Salmon,David <David_Salmon@mc.xerox.com> writes: 
 
S> I believe the cost of the base Multipower would be 80 Points. That is  
S>  not really what is disputed. The real question is: What would be the 
S>  cost of the slots and how did you come up with that cost? 
 
Slot cost = 1/5 or 1/10 the real cost of the slot.  Slot 1: 100 Active, 57 
Real, uSlot cost 6.  Slot 2: 90 Active, 40 Real, uSlot cost 4.  Slot 3: 100 
Active, 80 Real, uSlot cost 8. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBM8ZNe56VRH7BJMxHAQHXbwP/c2vRmbe6JEmGaqW8eSygc9vopRcHzq+H 
vH0wuXocjqzxxYvtRZSSD35jrw4gMcGCFhsXGdSB8PJYOwsqJd1e+OkeC1goucL+ 
EiM2UidrGnBQabLgmeC8+81OEbC7el/uwc0JItUn6j8YN3xTg8IlvrzEdstcPArW 
YpRYkyHrwb4= 
=ftnt 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:15:21 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net (Unverified) 
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 24 
 
At 10:51 PM 7/10/97 -0700, Lizard wrote: 
>I am working on a campaign which will include characters at a wide range of 
>power levels, but slanted heavily towards the Heroic, as opposed to 
>4-color. In looking through Almanac II, I noticed that the main cannon of a 
>tank does 5d6KA, or an average of 18 BODY. Joe Average won't even be 
>instantly killed (he'll die Real Soon, though), and someone of above 
>average BODY (say, 15) and readily available body armor (DEF 7-8) will 
>still be quite alive, albeit VERY unconscious.  
> 
>The alternative, however, is the more 'realistic' damage of GURPS, where 
>you roll 6d6*20 and soak up everyone, normal joe or superhero, with a damp 
>cloth. 
> 
>Anyone managed to find a happy medium? (FWIW, I calculated that a tank 
>could take about two hits from its own main gun...so a tank is about as 
>tough as two average people!) 
> 
>I have been thinking about souping up heavy artillery by buying an extra 
>die or two of RKA, NND, Defense is being, in the GMs opinion, able to stand 
>up to heavy artillery. This would include troops in 'high tech' power 
>armor, but not kevlar;superheroes, but not large animals;etc. A total 
>kludge, basically. 
 
 
An optional rule I used that may help is that if a character took all his 
body in one attack, he had to make a Con roll (-2 for every point in the 
negative he was in Body). If the character failed the roll they died 
instantly. If they succeeded they dropped to 0 stun or to the level stun 
damage from the attack took them to, whichever was greater.  
 
 
	What sick person put an "S" in lisp? 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 11 Jul 1997 11:16:14 -0400 
Lines: 24 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 25 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> writes: 
 
F> It occurred to me that this rule could also apply to personal armor,  
 
Um, no.  That would render bulletproof vests (PD 2-5) useless, when in fact 
they are anything but useless. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBM8ZOO56VRH7BJMxHAQHWYQQAwiVvAlC7bvbYKcYh4frVOWR3AkYeHuY6 
Jbb2wzpIK9Kq9b+GT2V3cgJlz+pNfEwMVxxBNPMjwjFp71Sr+8xMFiL+eSEqJiwt 
ipWvaFO4K0K7+YlQDQTZK6FJJ0i52hLwVkZz6Ya2dRAi9ofkPbs8/TrjOgmoR8Bl 
5ooFTXcQnTk= 
=VNEY 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should 
                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Info needed on US Currency. 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 11 Jul 1997 11:22:17 -0400 
Lines: 42 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 26 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "GWR" == Gordon W Rycroft <gwr1@ukc.ac.uk> writes: 
 
GWR> 1. How do you check a US banknote to see if it's genuine? 
 
A couple of ways.  First of all is to hit it with UV: bleached paper and 
fabric will flouresce; real money will not (unless its been through the 
wash).  Then there are little things like the printing itself: the ink will 
not run or rub off.  Also the sharpness of the print lines.  And finally 
the red and blue threads woven into the fabric -- US "paper" money is 
actually printed on cloth, not paper. 
 
The newest bills emphasise certain characteristics and embed a strip into 
the fabric. 
 
GWR> 2. What denominations are there? 
 
$1, $2, $5, $10, $20, $50, $100 in general circulation.  Larger 
denominations exist but they tend to be used almost exclusively by banks 
and other financial institutions. 
 
GWR> 3. In how many different places are they printed? 
 
Eight or nine, if I remember correctly.  I do not have a list of the Federal 
Reserve branches handy. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBM8ZPpp6VRH7BJMxHAQGiPgQAuy/nKG0ZHY1917qVuZNL/4Q8+pmDJJnD 
gVL5CwxxZNETqT5/I8UweUQB1GVnRWf5eWSHZz2qONe9q5LFvI8lzBrCLz1Hr0mj 
GviObkco8+shQ+U5SaaILajRvFbAKz0+xgsEuPSroeE+dGnUCI6OIcvUUFEqosfb 
u8jjQBmJ8tI= 
=HBUq 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Mental Flash 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 11 Jul 1997 11:49:07 -0400 
Lines: 26 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 27 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "O" == Opal <Opal@october.com> writes: 
 
O> Mental Powers can be targeted with any, well, *targeting* sense. 
 
No, mental powers, like all other powers that may be used to make attacks, 
may be targeted with *ANY* sense, targeting or otherwise.  With a targeting 
sense one has one's full O(E)CV; with a non-targeting sense one has O(E)CV 
penalties. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBM8ZV8J6VRH7BJMxHAQHvKQQAmXpfLUse2L8PucfJYiQ7aFOljgPemyAp 
mVj3hv5w3yAzFDwq/+D4QNQ35ZdVoZOw8HJWE26mLRCgOnMLuYMUS/sU84qQcYIH 
sbpDvpTuGyTVYA83mr/nU3DJLFwESs4vbgu5LazWvRUhSYlmzjgzYOQfV6svzISA 
cn3irYXpVOA= 
=DHo0 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 09:00:52 -0700 
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell) 
Subject: Re: Info needed on US Currency. 
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 28 
 
 
-> From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net Fri Jul 11 08:30:23 1997 
-> >>>>> "GWR" == Gordon W Rycroft <gwr1@ukc.ac.uk> writes: 
->  
-> GWR> 3. In how many different places are they printed? 
->  
-> Eight or nine, if I remember correctly.  I do not have a list of the Federal 
-> Reserve branches handy. 
->  
 
There are more than that. 12, I think. If you look at the front of a bill, 
the Federal Reserve Bank where the bill originated is indicated with a large 
letter: 
 
A = Boston 
F = Atlanta 
L = San Francisco 
 
Those are the only types of bills I have in my wallet today. 
 
						-Sam 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:39:45 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Multipowers ... getting cost correctly figured 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 29 
 
>S> I believe the cost of the base Multipower would be 80 Points. That is  
>S>  not really what is disputed. The real question is: What would be the 
>S>  cost of the slots and how did you come up with that cost? 
> 
>Slot cost = 1/5 or 1/10 the real cost of the slot.  Slot 1: 100 Active, 57 
>Real, uSlot cost 6.  Slot 2: 90 Active, 40 Real, uSlot cost 4.  Slot 3: 100 
>Active, 80 Real, uSlot cost 8. 
 
I disagree. It's 1/5 or 1/10th the Active cost of the slot. You then apply 
the limitations to this slot cost. Check the boxed table on BBB pg.115, 
which shows fairly clearly how this is calculated. Mind you, it works out to 
the same result as what Rat proposes... 
 
So a 100 point Multipower with a -1/4 Lim costs 80 points. Any 100 point 
ultra slot will cost 8 points, because applying a -1/4 Lim to 10 points 
results in 8 points. 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
Subject: Re: Info needed on US Currency. 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 97 13:06:14 EDT 
From: "William W. Arnold" <has8wwa@atlas.vcu.edu> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 30 
 
Sam Bell writes --- 
>There are more than that. 12, I think. If you look at the front of a bill, 
>the Federal Reserve Bank where the bill originated is indicated with a large 
>letter: 
> 
A = Boston 
B = New York, NY. 
C = Philadelphia, PA. 
E = Richmond, VA. 
F = Atlanta 
L = San Francisco 
 
That's my wallet,  let's complete the list. 
 
/------------------------------\ /----------------------------------\ 
| William W. Arnold             | Is the universe an accident,      | 
| has8wwa@atlas.vcu.edu         |    a mistake, or did someone      | 
| warnold@nomad.urich.edu       |    do it to us on purpose?        | 
| someone.else@someplace.else   |            --ME--                 | 
\------------------------------/ \----------------------------------/ 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net> 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 17:08:23 +0000 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Reply-To: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> Human-scale weapons aren't L> really more damaging, just more 
> accurate, longer ranged, and better at L> penetrating armor. 
>  
> And I can prove that this is patently incorrect.  I would be 
> hard-pressed to swing the broadsword you describe, and if I was 
> strong enough to swing it hard enough to cut a man in half I really 
> would not need the sword to kill someone.  But put a Browning 9mm in 
> my hands and I am lethal.  It has nothing to do with accuracy, 
> range, or armor penetration; it has everything to do with the fact 
> that modern firearms are more lethal than medieval hand weapons. 
 
Actually, studies of torso wounds done by large knives and bullets  
show that the knives are only slightly less deadly. A sword was as  
deadly as a gun, if not more so. 
 
Even worse, a longbow does _more_ damage than a .30-06 or similar  
weapon. Modern personal small arms are _not_ more deadly.  
They are more accurate, easier to use, and longer ranged, but not  
more deadly. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net> 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 17:08:23 +0000 
Subject: Re: Info needed on US Currency. 
Reply-To: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
>  
> >>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
>  
> BG>    Assuming you're referring to what we call a "bill" (a 
> banknote over BG> here would be something actually from a bank; 
> official currency is BG> printed by the government), 
>  
> A common misconception: the Federal Reserve Bank prints money under 
> the authority of the Department of the Treasury but is not itself a 
> government agency.  In fact, it is the largest private bank in the 
> US. 
 
Close, but no cigar. The Federal Reserve _distributes_ the money, but  
it is still printed by the Federal Treasury Bureau of Engraving and  
Printing. 
 
Additionally, the Federal Reserve Bank is not truly private. It is a  
corporation wholly owned by the Federal Government, much like the  
Post Office.  
 
> Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid 
> core, PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to 
> rupture, should 
>                                     \ not be touched, inhaled, or 
>                                     looked at. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 11 Jul 97 17:26:00 GMT 
Subject: Losing an Arm and a Leg 
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
Path: october!opal 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
 h > Does regeneration bring back lost limbs?  Or would you need  
 h > a 0 END, Persistant, Continuous, Uncontrolled Aid or Transform?  
  
The game doesn't really make provisions for losts limbs, so I  
would assume that standard regen can grow them back - since  
losing them is represented with simple BOD damage.  Now, if the  
optional imparing & disabling rules are used....  
  
 h > Also, is it just me, or does regeneration seem rather cheap?  
 h > I mean, for 20 CP, you can heal a gunshot wound within a couple  
 h > of minutes, as opposed to a month or two.  I mean, what would you  
 h > rather have, 2 BODY/turn of Regeneration, or 4" of Stretching  
 h > (2-3" if you want to stretch around walls, depending on your GM)?  
 h > Also, it costs more to regenerate 5 BODY every week than to regenerate  
 h > 1 BODY every turn!  
 h >  
 h > -Eric  
  
Right on all counts (except the comparison to Stretching, which is  
horribly underpowered).  My personal solution:  
  
  
Regeneration:  
     This special power allows a character to recover BOD more  
rapidly.  Normally, BOD heals at a rate of 1 per point of  
Recovery each month.  Each 5 pts of Regeneration moves that  
recovery rate one step up on the time chart - up to 35 pts which  
allows the character to heal his REC in BOD each turn (on post-  
segment-12).  For 45 pts, the character can heal BOD every time  
he takes a recovery (including post-segment-12).  Characters  
wishing to recover from wounds even faster should consider taking  
Damage Reduction with the special effect of instantly healing.  
     Regeneration can go beyond merely speeding healing.  For +10  
pts the character's rate of Regeneration is unaffected by  
environmental factors or levels of exertion.  For +15 pts, he  
does not bleed (doesn't lose BOD after being reduced to 0 BOD or  
suffer from the effects of the optional bleeding rules).  The  
character can also regrow lost limbs and recover completely from  
the effects of Disabling wounds for +10 pts.  
     Regeneration cost:  5pts per step on the time chart.  Heal  
     BOD on each Recovery for 45pts.  Ignore environment/exertion  
     for +10 pts.  Does not bleed +15pts.  Regrow limbs +10.  
     Minimum cost 10pts.  
  
  
  
Now, the first time I sugested this, I got a lot of complaints  
about it being too expensive and generally not fitting the  
rules.  Oddly enough, Steve Peterson is considering a very  
similar cost structure for Fuzion (1 PP per step on the time  
chart (1 Fuzion PP = 5 Hero Apts).  And some of the Fuzion  
list folks are saying that's too cheap.  :)  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 10:29:32 -0700 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:16 AM 7/11/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> writes: 
> 
>F> It occurred to me that this rule could also apply to personal armor,  
> 
>Um, no.  That would render bulletproof vests (PD 2-5) useless, when in fact 
>they are anything but useless. 
> 
You could buy it as an expensive NND...Defense is having Resistant Defenses 
greater than or equal to half the BODY rolled on the attack. I like the way 
that works...people in powersuits (DEF 12-15 or so) can take at least a 
shot or two from a heavy artillery piece, while people in "realistic" armor 
(~DEF<8) get splattered. 
 
The other thing I'm working on is a technological differences system...a 
typical handgun (1d6+1 KA) will very often not penetrate medevial plate 
armor. Rather than tinkering with damages and defenses, I've decided to 
arbitrarily give AP, only vs 'low tech' armor to most modern firearms, and 
I'm working on how to deal with really high tech stuff. (For my purposes, 
technology can be divided into 'low tech' (Fantasy/medevial) 'modern' (20th 
century+Cyberpunk) and 'future' (Blasters, kill-o-zap guns). The last 
category should basically ignore non-natural Resistant Defenses of the low 
tech kind (NND, defense is having natural Resistant Defenses?), and get AP 
against 'modern' armor. 
 
I don't like increasing *damage* with increasing tech levels, because, 
really, a man cloven in Clemens by a broadsword is just as dead as a man 
shot by a .44 Magnum or zapped by a blaster. Human-scale weapons aren't 
really more damaging, just more accurate, longer ranged, and better at 
penetrating armor. 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 11 Jul 97 17:33:02 GMT 
Subject: Multipowers ... getting 
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
Path: october!opal 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
 h >  
 h > I believe the cost of the base Multipower would be 80 Points. That is  
 h >  not really what is disputed. The real question is:  What would be the  
 h >  cost of the slots and how did you come up with that cost? The way I  
 h >  figure it, the base cost of the slots should be 10 (because they are  
 h >  ultra slots) and any limitations should be applied to the cost of 10  
 h >  to figure the real cost of the slot. The way the other guy figures  
 h > it,  
 h >  the base cost of each slot should be 8 because the Gestures  
 h > limitation  
 h >  reduces the real cost of the Multipower from 100 to 80. Who is right?  
 h >  
 h >  Are we both wrong? Help would greatly be appreciated!!! Replies can  
 h > be  
 h >  sent as a reply to this message or to davews@cyberdude.com.  
 h > ...Dave S.  
  
Oh, is that all?  You are right, he is wrong.  You always apply  
all advantage at once, and all limitations at once.  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men  
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 13:33:10 -0400 (EDT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> >>TV needs more pulp adventure...too bad it doesn't pull in the 
> >>viewers. Nothing like 'two-fisted' adventure... 
> > 
> >What about Xena and Hercules (and the lesser cousins, Robin Hood, Sinbad, 
> >and Tarzan)? 
>  
> They pull in viewers based on sex appeal, just like Baywatch...and they owe 
> more, IMHO, to wild Hong Kong Kung Fu flicks than to Indiana Jones/Phantom 
> style pulp adventure... 
>  
 
Yeah, ever notice that on Robin Hood, all the womwen are wearing 
wonderbras?  That's historically inaccurate, since the wonderbra was not 
invented until 1743. 
 
> Oh. Other good 'pulp' stuff - a cross between pulp private eye and cthulhu 
> mythos..."To Cast A Deadly Spell" and (I think) "The Witching Hour", HBO 
> Specials you can find in your video store (I think the name on the second is 
> wrong, though...anyone?). 
> 
 
The second film was called "Witch Hunt".  Both films were quite 
interesting. 
 
> John D. Prins 
> jprins@interhop.net 
>  
>  
 
-Eric 
 
PS.  Anyone ever see Kung Fu, or Kung Fu: The Legend Continues?  Just 
two more shows to add to the "two-fisted action" pile. 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 11 Jul 97 17:41:04 GMT 
Subject: Decompressing damage... 
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
Path: october!opal 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
 h >  
 h > I am working on a campaign which will include characters at a wide  
 h > range of  
 h > power levels, but slanted heavily towards the Heroic, as opposed to  
 h > 4-color. In looking through Almanac II, I noticed that the main cannon  
 h > of a  
 h > tank does 5d6KA, or an average of 18 BODY. Joe Average won't even be  
 h > instantly killed (he'll die Real Soon, though), and someone of above  
 h > average BODY (say, 15) and readily available body armor (DEF 7-8) will  
 h > still be quite alive, albeit VERY unconscious.  
  
There are a number of simple adjustments you can make to increase  
lethality.  First off, you can consider normals to have less than  
10 BOD on 'average' - 10 is just the baseline for the heroic set.  
Secondly, you can use the full slate of optional rules on bleeding,  
imparing, disabling, etc.  under the optional 'quick kill' rule,  
both Joe Average and Joe Above Average are iced.  
  
 h > The alternative, however, is the more 'realistic' damage of GURPS,  
 h > where  
 h > you roll 6d6*20 and soak up everyone, normal joe or superhero, with a  
 h > damp  
 h > cloth.  
  
Yep that's linear systems for you.  (If I wanted reality, I wouldn't  
be gaming)  
  
 h > Anyone managed to find a happy medium? (FWIW, I calculated that a tank  
 h > could take about two hits from its own main gun...so a tank is about  
 h > as tough as two average people!)  
  
Fuzion (as much as I hate to admit it) is pretty good in this regard,  
it's more convincingly lethal than Hero, and it doesn't stoop to  
the linear damage system of GURPS.  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 13:51:28 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Lizard wrote: 
 
> The other thing I'm working on is a technological differences system...a 
> typical handgun (1d6+1 KA) will very often not penetrate medevial plate 
> armor. Rather than tinkering with damages and defenses, I've decided to 
> arbitrarily give AP, only vs 'low tech' armor to most modern firearms, and 
> I'm working on how to deal with really high tech stuff. (For my purposes, 
> technology can be divided into 'low tech' (Fantasy/medevial) 'modern' (20th 
> century+Cyberpunk) and 'future' (Blasters, kill-o-zap guns). The last 
> category should basically ignore non-natural Resistant Defenses of the low 
> tech kind (NND, defense is having natural Resistant Defenses?), and get AP 
> against 'modern' armor. 
 
In Ninja Hero, UMA and (possibly) Fantasy Hero, ancient armor is given the 
limitation of 1/2 or 0 DEF vs guns.  Thus, a 9mm pistol (1d6+1) will 
probably penetrate a 8 DEF suit of full plate.  If you're using a weapon 
loaded with AP rounds then you quarter the DEF of the armor (thus a 9mm 
pistol firing 1d6 AP shots would only have to deal with 2 DEF armor from 
the suit of plate).  Armors such as leather buff coats and quilted arming 
jackets would get 0 DEF vs guns.  On the flips side, it should be noted 
that there are cases of middle ages armors stopping musket balls and the 
like (especially from Japan where muskets and armor co-existed for some 
time). 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From: "Gordon W. Rycroft" <gwr1@ukc.ac.uk> 
Subject: Info needed on US Currency. 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 13:57:57 -0400 (EDT) 
Priority: NORMAL 
X-Authentication: none 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 16 
 
Yeah, this may look off topic, but I need the following information for a scenario... 
 
1. How do you check a US banknote to see if it's genuine? 
 
2. What denominations are there? 
 
3. In how many different places are they printed? 
 
If anyone can help me, I'd be most grateful... 
 
Gordon 
 
__________________________________________________________ 
 
If anybody has seen a sigfile around here,  please hand it in at the desk 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:01:37 -0700 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
Reply-To: icepirat@ix.netcom.com 
Subject: Re: Info needed on US Currency. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Quick note on the rarity of certain currency. 
 
The 50 cent and the Susan B. Anthony $1 coins are rare in normal 
circulation, but if you go to the post office you'll always get them in 
your change. Most cashiers hate them since there useually isn't a good 
slot for them in the drawer and the Susan B is nearly the same size as a 
quarter which confuses them. 
 
-Mark 
 
From: BeerCarboy@aol.com 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:09:59 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law & Speedster Tricks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>In the Golden Age comics it was quite common to see Flash or Johnny Quick  
>vibrate through walls. Would this be a good use of indirect on running for a 
 
>speedster??? 
 
 
NIMCs, it is desolid with the special effect of vibrating one's molecules so 
fast that the solid parts pass through the vast empty parts of the molecules 
of other substances around you.  Probably effected by any attack based on 
vibration as a special effect . . . 
 
 
 
 
Carter Humphrey 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
                                                            BeerCarbo@AOL.com 
 
From: "Miq Millman" <miq@teleport.com> 
Subject: Re: Info needed on US Currency. 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:15:57 -0700 
X-Msmail-Priority: Normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
---------- 
> From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
> To: champ-l@omg.org 
> Subject: Re: Info needed on US Currency. 
> Date: Friday, July 11, 1997 10:43 AM 
>  
> Sam Bell & William W. Arnold started this: 
>  
> A = Boston, MA 
> B = New York, NY. 
> C = Philadelphia, PA. 
> D = Cleveland, OH 
> E = Richmond, VA. 
> F = Atlanta, Georgia 
> G = Chicago, IL 
> H = St. Lois, MO 
> I = Minneapolis, Minnesota 
> J = Kansas City, MO 
  K = Dallas, TX      
> L = San Francisco, CA 
 
(that's from memory, I don't have any bills on me right now, but I know 
there's a federal reserve bank in Dallas.) 
-- 
__ 
Miq Millman         miq@teleport.com 
Tualatin OR 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 11 Jul 1997 14:16:59 -0400 
Lines: 43 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> writes: 
 
L> You could buy it as an expensive NND...Defense is having Resistant 
L> Defenses greater than or equal to half the BODY rolled on the attack. 
 
NND attacks do not do Body damage. 
 
Besides, when you use the hit location chart for damage modifiers you get 
something that actually does approximate real firearms. 
 
[...] 
 
L> I don't like increasing *damage* with increasing tech levels, because, 
L> really, a man cloven in Clemens by a broadsword is just as dead as a man 
L> shot by a .44 Magnum or zapped by a blaster. Human-scale weapons aren't 
L> really more damaging, just more accurate, longer ranged, and better at 
L> penetrating armor. 
 
And I can prove that this is patently incorrect.  I would be hard-pressed 
to swing the broadsword you describe, and if I was strong enough to swing 
it hard enough to cut a man in half I really would not need the sword to 
kill someone.  But put a Browning 9mm in my hands and I am lethal.  It has 
nothing to do with accuracy, range, or armor penetration; it has everything 
to do with the fact that modern firearms are more lethal than medieval hand 
weapons. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBM8Z4mZ6VRH7BJMxHAQFaIQQAqOQmhqL33G+p/SS9K+zgIFlx1R+d+KoR 
CHQWUKcU5jsPloYNZz7tsyBLzzu8Ck/atfpccE/g7bB7EgOlo8HF+HQso4atPm0j 
RwmpHv29yGhoWkGqe9SwG/dey/QVlgCiQv6OywbGy8bVgpVCedczTtl5HYJyP4Fz 
0eMtyA+uiUM= 
=fWZt 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Info needed on US Currency. 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 11 Jul 1997 14:20:39 -0400 
Lines: 27 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
BG>    Assuming you're referring to what we call a "bill" (a banknote over 
BG> here would be something actually from a bank; official currency is 
BG> printed by the government), 
 
A common misconception: the Federal Reserve Bank prints money under the 
authority of the Department of the Treasury but is not itself a government 
agency.  In fact, it is the largest private bank in the US. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBM8Z5c56VRH7BJMxHAQGRQQP9F6t8Yzeg6gLKFWms5kBIuyiX9ndRyUnX 
Y5VhrfJpnhgodGdU9jS054xTKeAyTFMv7eyxBkLhiDfX4/J8vidVGNCgGH6jVLS3 
AOsnRXg1MS9uS8yP+cb9n2j5LVPPpFxLH1Mk+/eBaFlrg8YeI3e/hak/pU0Cl9CQ 
+OFDE2PR7Ps= 
=5XrY 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should 
                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Losing an Arm and a Leg 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 11 Jul 1997 14:22:52 -0400 
Lines: 29 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
>> Also, it costs more to regenerate 5 BODY every week than to regenerate 
>> 1 BODY every turn!   
 
BG> This is the real problem with Regeneration; its structure is skewed. 
BG> This problem does need to be addressed.  Unfortunately, I don't have a 
BG> solution. 
 
Use the Power properly: 1 Body/Hour costs 10 points.  1 Body/Day (7 
Body/Week) costs 4 points. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBM8Z5+Z6VRH7BJMxHAQHsEQP9HplocWsCaWODnKudXB6VZfwba95kSMNQ 
Rn5jcWgM+nyBmthJU446Ww74qzJzNCiUE2KazA+vqKhAEwdUd2qhAIwNIsYkfTHM 
9+nb5s4Kes4bvhs3Prcx2vC6YFJYBFT1NqJVNUHZ8Iv1ULW3GN6F1Nhnhfe+QHJN 
Won1pmKU+40= 
=dejO 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:24:47 -0700 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
Reply-To: icepirat@ix.netcom.com 
Subject: Re: Info needed on US Currency. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>3. In how many different places are they printed? 
>  
> Go with John Desmarais' list for this one.  "He da man" on this one. 
 
I just check out the web site that John recommended.  The Federal 
Reserves are the distribution points. The bills are printed in Two 
places. Washinton DC (Since 1862) & Fort Worth, Texas since 1991. 
 
http://www.bep.treas.gov  has a lot of info on this. Much more info than 
the list is willing to deal with. 
 
-Mark 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:52:46 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Losing an Arm and a Leg 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 11 Jul 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> >> Also, it costs more to regenerate 5 BODY every week than to regenerate 
> >> 1 BODY every turn!   
>  
> BG> This is the real problem with Regeneration; its structure is skewed. 
> BG> This problem does need to be addressed.  Unfortunately, I don't have a 
> BG> solution. 
>  
> Use the Power properly: 1 Body/Hour costs 10 points.  1 Body/Day (7 
> Body/Week) costs 4 points. 
 
How do you figure that?  Isn't the base setting for Regen 1 Body every 
Turn? (for 10 points) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:57:33 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified) 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>> Oh. Other good 'pulp' stuff - a cross between pulp private eye and cthulhu 
>> mythos..."To Cast A Deadly Spell" and (I think) "The Witching Hour", HBO 
>> Specials you can find in your video store (I think the name on the second is 
>> wrong, though...anyone?). 
> 
>The second film was called "Witch Hunt".  Both films were quite 
>interesting. 
 
Doh! I knew I was wrong on that one... 
 
>PS.  Anyone ever see Kung Fu, or Kung Fu: The Legend Continues?  Just 
>two more shows to add to the "two-fisted action" pile. 
 
Original Kung Fu would qualify for "Two-Fisted Adventure", but KF:TLC has 
Kane doing to many funky Taoist tricks for my blood (to qualify as 
'two-fisted adventure', I enjoy KF:TLC...). And there aren't enough barroom 
brawls. Every good Two-Fisted adventure needs at least one barroom brawl. 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
Subject: Re: Info needed on US Currency. 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 97 16:12:18 EDT 
From: "William W. Arnold" <has8wwa@atlas.vcu.edu> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Bob Greenwade writes --- 
>>2. What denominations are there? 
> 
>   $1, $2 (currently discontinued and now rare), $5, $10, $20, $50, and $100 
>are in common usage. 
Actually, the treasury just recently ran out of the supply of $2 bills, 
and is printing a new supply.  Therefore they can not be said to be 
discontinued.  They are just unpopular and rarely used.  You should be 
able to get them from any bank if you ask. 
 
>   Just as a passing, related note (no pun intended), ATMs generally only 
>give $5 and $20 bills, and many (such as those in shopping malls) only give 
>$20s.  (I have encountered a couple that dispense $10s; these are unusual, 
>though, and I don't even remember where it was.) 
 
That's interesting,  I've never seen an ATM that gave $5's  all the 
ones in my area give $10's and $20's.  This may be a regional 
difference.  I'm in richmond VA,  where are you? 
 
>This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
yes, but where is that? 
 
/------------------------------\ /----------------------------------\ 
| William W. Arnold             | Is the universe an accident,      | 
| has8wwa@atlas.vcu.edu         |    a mistake, or did someone      | 
| warnold@nomad.urich.edu       |    do it to us on purpose?        | 
| someone.else@someplace.else   |            --ME--                 | 
\------------------------------/ \----------------------------------/ 
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 13:51:21 -0700 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:16 PM 7/11/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> writes: 
> 
>L> You could buy it as an expensive NND...Defense is having Resistant 
>L> Defenses greater than or equal to half the BODY rolled on the attack. 
> 
>NND attacks do not do Body damage. 
> 
True;but I like NND normal and killing attacks to represent VERY nasty 
forms of attack, and usually treat it as a +2 Advantage. It tends to be a 
GM only thing for me. 
 
>Besides, when you use the hit location chart for damage modifiers you get 
>something that actually does approximate real firearms. 
> 
>[...] 
> 
>L> I don't like increasing *damage* with increasing tech levels, because, 
>L> really, a man cloven in Clemens by a broadsword is just as dead as a man 
>L> shot by a .44 Magnum or zapped by a blaster. Human-scale weapons aren't 
>L> really more damaging, just more accurate, longer ranged, and better at 
>L> penetrating armor. 
> 
>And I can prove that this is patently incorrect.  I would be hard-pressed 
>to swing the broadsword you describe, and if I was strong enough to swing 
>it hard enough to cut a man in half I really would not need the sword to 
>kill someone.  But put a Browning 9mm in my hands and I am lethal.  It has 
>nothing to do with accuracy, range, or armor penetration; it has everything 
>to do with the fact that modern firearms are more lethal than medieval hand 
>weapons. 
 
Modern weapons let people like you and me do damage we never otherwise 
could, and that's why we use them, not bows and swords. But a person of 
sufficient strength wielding a sword is going to kill, very 
nicely...though, of course, the fact that almost any serious wound became a 
fatal wound in the abscence of medical contributed to the death toll in 
things like the crusades. For game purposes, though, the choice is to make 
guns do very high levels of damage (A broadsword, a medium bow, and a .38 
special all do 1d6+1K according to the rulebook), or alter the way low-tech 
armor reacts to attacks. Again, a man impaled through the heart with a 
crossbow bolt or shot through the heart with a pistol is going to be just 
about as damaged. 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:10:59 -0700 
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net> 
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Rifts -- HERO ruminations (was: Golden Age Mystery Men) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
> Actually, mechanics counts for a LOT. I gave up on Rifts because every damn 
> suppliment forced me to deal with another ENTIRE magic system, three dozen 
> 'new' OCC/RCCs that are virtually the same as the last three dozen, and the 
> six page writeups for JUST the stats on thier machines. 
 
Sounds as if you got dissatisfied with the entire format of the line. 
 
But new magic systems? That is where I believe you are mistaken. New 
spells and new spell casters, certainly. But the magic system itself 
always runs the same, from a mechanical point of view. 
  
> Anyway, I made a half-hearted attempt at converting Rifts to HERO.  
 
I succeeded. Based on cold, hard mechanical comparison. I spent 10 years 
crunching Palladium's figures trying to get them to make sense with the 
Hero System. And they do. I just haven't posted them to the Web. Because 
I have had Web access for barely a week. 
 
But I don't agree with the conclusions that your conversions came to. 
They are way too powerful. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Losing an Arm and a Leg 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 11 Jul 1997 17:11:47 -0400 
Lines: 38 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes: 
 
>> Use the Power properly: 1 Body/Hour costs 10 points.  1 Body/Day (7 
>> Body/Week) costs 4 points. 
 
MS> How do you figure that? 
 
It was clearly a typo. 
 
Anyway, the point is that when figuring out how much Regeneration to buy, 
or how many levels down the time chart to go, try to reduce the base amount 
of Regeneration to 1 Body per whatever period then round the period to 
something reasonable.  To wit, 5 Body/Week is 1 Body every 1/5 week.  The 
closest point on the time chart to that is 1 Day so use that for a -1.25 
limitation on Regeneration. 
 
The only times you should be buying more than the minimum base Regeneration 
is when you do not drop down the time chart.  Otherwise, as the original 
poster pointed out, you get "slow" Regeneration that costs more than 
"fast". 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBM8ahj56VRH7BJMxHAQEpCAP7BzMUuLtTCkC/w83Zpbznq56h/AbL/bjc 
rUsVBTWnQRaXYu5labqiirBzic+q7Ob/91iUo2HPzEZe64xYsyLY4MO1bU1MsJQ8 
d7EeLgEKi+huJCUzip5X/DKJdat7lEpL9loAilkyifrYWeDirDahSapLFPfbd5nT 
3rU5WLBG0c8= 
=CUmo 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should 
                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Mental Flash 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 11 Jul 1997 17:24:01 -0400 
Lines: 47 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> writes: 
 
F> The description of mental powers states that line of sight is required; 
F> it says nothing about whether a line of sight is the ability to see the 
F> target, or the ability to reach the target without barriers, when 
F> drawing a straight line. Either one, and you cannot go through an opaque 
F> barrier, regardless of range or how well you hear (smell, etc) the 
F> target. 
 
Um, no.  Barriers do not stop mental powers, they only prevent the 
targeting of mental powers through them unless one has a sense that can 
penetrate those barriers, a "sense" like Mind Scan, for instance, or 
perhaps N-Ray or X-Ray Vision.  If one has a sense that can penetrate or 
bypass the barrier the barrier will not block mental powers unless it 
somehow incorporates Mental Defense. 
 
F> The description of Based Upon EGO Combat Value states it outright,  
F> you must _see_ the target. 
 
For "see" one should substitute "perceive".  Otherwise Mind Scan would be 
useless for targeting mental powers because one cannot see with it. 
 
F> The BBB is unclear on this, but at various times it has been stated  
F> that a targeting sense is necessary for EGO combat. 
 
And the BBB also states that a targeting sense is necessary for other forms 
of combat, and then it goes on to explain that when a non-targeting sense 
is used one has CV penalties.  I recall nothing that states that mental 
powers are somehow exempted from that. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBM8akap6VRH7BJMxHAQHZwwP+NuQ+AmN5sH4CUtHZiU9JuIahobdo0v1A 
C4FB2+6rbCuIgULSucLMF9zANQdaFabzPW63wmDmTxkKRnWQ6zSgRndiPkkaa3nL 
9/sKrlpRU6faDyskWWd7LeZTr0E6nOj/GMO7qh3UKSsgm7NCCmd0DWWN5yxgvzit 
c4C6qUgrsAQ= 
=k94t 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:31:17 -0700 
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net> 
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Indiana Jones, Rifts, what sells, and other off topic stuff... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
> But, with Rifts, rules are constantly being added, along with new powers and 
> abilities, with no eye to game balance, or logic, symetry or consistancy. 
> It's a so-called multi-genre game system that lacks internal, universal 
> principles (like: 1 PPE can create this much effect, no matter what magic is 
> being used - never mind that many will have magic powers that work sans 
> PPE...). HERO has the Character Points to keep things in line, as does GURPS. 
 
The way to control the power level of character in Rifts isn't a matter 
of determining character levels, but by adopting an MDC maximum. Which 
means, that character classes that routinely exceed this total because 
of any of their abilities aren't allowed as PCs in the first place. For 
my own use, I set 250 MDC as the benchmark for a reasonably powered 
guideline. Which just happens to be the same amount as the main body of 
a SAMAS suit. 
 
> But...I digress. Rifts is 'brain candy' because it sacrifices almost _all_ 
> substance in the name of style. It can be fun for a short while, but an all 
> sugar diet doesn't satisfy... 
 
The reason it fails, isn't because of the mechanics or the background. 
It is because those who use it are either power gamers or they are too 
into looking at the background at a global scale. I have had wonderful 
Rifts camapigns. Because I was simply more into my character than the 
rest of the baggage. 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:42:59 -0700 
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net> 
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Indiana Jones, Rifts, what sells, and other off topic stuff... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
happyelf! wrote: 
 
> i'd say this isn't nearly as far as say. . . . how could the MAGE technomancy 
> counquer the world, when at some point at least, the non-tech spiritualists 
> massively outnumbered the european colonists? 
> and don't even get me started about star trek. . 
> once again. . . it';s relative to tastes. 
 
That is because the Technocracy went underground and started shaping the 
beliefs of the masses. Instead of engaging on large scale warfare. They 
changed the nature of reality by attacking it at its source. The belief 
of the general puplic. Which, in turn, created the force that would 
become known as Paradox. Another way of looking at it is as follows. The 
collective unconscious of the masses slaps down a Mage when they get 
caught violating what it regards as reality. 
 
BTW, I don't like this take on magic. I never have agreed with it. The 
above promotes the idea that magic and reality are shaped by democracy. 
If that were really true, we wouldn't have any form of inventions or 
technology at all. In other words, I think that the entire concept lacks 
a certain amount of credibility. 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 15:07:37 -0700 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
Reply-To: icepirat@ix.netcom.com 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Lizard wrote: 
>  
> > The other thing I'm working on is a technological differences 
> system...a 
> > typical handgun (1d6+1 KA) will very often not penetrate medevial 
> plate 
> > armor. Rather than tinkering with damages and defenses, I've decided 
> to 
> > arbitrarily give AP, only vs 'low tech' armor to most modern 
> firearms, and 
> > I'm working on how to deal with really high tech stuff. (For my 
> purposes, 
> > technology can be divided into 'low tech' (Fantasy/medevial) 
> 'modern' (20th 
> > century+Cyberpunk) and 'future' (Blasters, kill-o-zap guns). The 
> last 
> > category should basically ignore non-natural Resistant Defenses of 
> the low 
> > tech kind (NND, defense is having natural Resistant Defenses?), and 
> get AP 
> > against 'modern' armor. 
 
Aren't there cases of modern armour that stops a bullet, not stopping a 
knife thrust? 
So wouldn't you want to break up the categories on more of a type than 
of vintage? 
 
Sidenote: It wasn't until WWII that there were more casualties caused by 
enemy action than by disease. 
 
-Mark 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 11 Jul 1997 18:10:43 -0400 
Lines: 35 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes: 
 
MS> In Ninja Hero, UMA and (possibly) Fantasy Hero, ancient armor is given 
MS> the limitation of 1/2 or 0 DEF vs guns. 
 
Not in Fantasy Hero: there are no guns in an FH game so the limitation is 
worth nothing.  In modern games in which the medieval armors exist for 
whatever reason they do get the limitation. 
 
[...] 
 
MS> On the flips side, it should be noted that there are cases of middle 
MS> ages armors stopping musket balls and the like (especially from Japan 
MS> where muskets and armor co-existed for some time). 
 
Japanese lamellor was an unusual construction for the period, one of the 
first instances of composite materials science put to practical use. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBM8avYJ6VRH7BJMxHAQHZrAP+NilrsK0u3m/clFxHY/5SVvKtDAC9m2Qy 
iSz9M1YMRXi6PwYVJjbBj0u5Jwj+X7HhEuZZgQZjpIlxPDcVlunhCR0EzkHkuWkl 
GP/6hzVMScP3X34YgR0Dgt39Nscdr7IMmYhHoMrdCpP8v63Nb4BcV+yoToghT7fz 
cYfAWrlkeMA= 
=9sP6 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"John and Ron Prins\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 97 22:45:30  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Indiana Jones, Rifts, what sells, and other off topic stuff... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 9 Jul 1997 00:02:59 -0400 (EDT), John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
>>why did the british have horses in WW2?  
> 
>Because they _had_ horses, and a horse will still get you around powered 
>only by water and grass. Does the British army still use horses in the field 
>today? Probably not. Why? Because they've got something that works better. 
 
Actually, we do. Not for battlefield use, though! 
 
qts 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net> 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 22:52:41 +0000 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Reply-To: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> >>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> writes: 
>  
> F> It occurred to me that this rule could also apply to personal 
> armor,  
>  
> Um, no.  That would render bulletproof vests (PD 2-5) useless, when 
> in fact they are anything but useless. 
>  
According to the BBB, kevlar body armor comes in three ratings- light  
(3 PD), standard (5 PD), and heavy (7 PD).  There have been further  
interpretations in later books, which I prefer, but we will go with  
the basic ones in the BBB for the moment. 
 
A 3PD vest is listed as light. I wouldn't call this bullet proof, as  
your average woman could be killed by a .22 with a single shot.  
(Woman has 8 BODY, 2 BODY penetrate vest with a damage roll of 6  
(-1), hit location 13 doubles BODY to 4, disabling injury to Vitals  
can cause instant death.) Much too weak for 9mm or .45s, to say  
nothing of .357 Magnums. 
 
A 5 PD vest would not encounter this optional rule i suggested on  
anything up to and through a .357 magnum (maximum damage 9 BODY, not  
sufficient, as Ninja Hero states that damage is rounded down for  
this, just like with casual STR). A .44 magnum _could_ do enough  
damage to invoke this rule, to be certain, but using the optional  
rules I applied with the last vest, a .357 could kill a man with 16  
BODY with a single shot. Again, the vest is not properly designed. I  
recommend using later variations. 
 
In real life, a ballistic vest that doesn't actually stop the bullet  
is nearly useless. A vest that cannot consistently stop a .44 magnum  
will not give significant protection from a high-powered  rifle or a  
.50 machine gun. This rule is more realistic than you think. If it  
doesn't work right with your "bullet-proof" vests, and you want  
realism, then I recommend that you redesign them. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net> 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 22:52:41 +0000 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Reply-To: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> Japanese lamellor was an unusual construction for the period, one of 
> the first instances of composite materials science put to practical 
> use. 
Medieval plate will stop rounds from a .45 automatic, quite  
consistently, and without the heavy bruising and broken ribs of a  
kevlar vest. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net> 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 22:52:41 +0000 
Subject: Re: Mental Flash 
Reply-To: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> >>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> writes: 
>  
> F> The description of mental powers states that line of sight is 
> required; F> it says nothing about whether a line of sight is the 
> ability to see the F> target, or the ability to reach the target 
> without barriers, when F> drawing a straight line. Either one, and 
> you cannot go through an opaque F> barrier, regardless of range or 
> how well you hear (smell, etc) the F> target. 
>  
> Um, no.  Barriers do not stop mental powers, they only prevent the 
> targeting of mental powers through them unless one has a sense that 
> can penetrate those barriers, a "sense" like Mind Scan, for 
> instance, or perhaps N-Ray or X-Ray Vision.  If one has a sense that 
> can penetrate or bypass the barrier the barrier will not block 
> mental powers unless it somehow incorporates Mental Defense. 
 
I meant opaque barriers. A barrier is not opaque to a person who can  
see through it, therefore it doesn't count if the character can see  
through it. 
 
> F> The description of Based Upon EGO Combat Value states it 
> outright, F> you must _see_ the target. 
>  
> For "see" one should substitute "perceive". 
 
But how do you know that it doesn't require a targeting sense? Under  
Mental Attacks, it also says "see". In previous editions, it  
specified targeting sense, and I haven't seen any reason to believe  
that targeting sense is no longer needed. 
 
>Otherwise Mind Scan 
> would be useless for targeting mental powers because one cannot see 
> with it. 
 
Except that the rules specifically state that you _can_ use it,  
thereby negating that argument. Additionally, Mind Scan is a  
targeting sense, so my interpretation still applies. 
 
> F> The BBB is unclear on this, but at various times it has been 
> stated 
F> that a targeting sense is necessary for EGO combat. 
>  
> And the BBB also states that a targeting sense is necessary for 
> other forms of combat, and then it goes on to explain that when a 
> non-targeting sense is used one has CV penalties. 
 
No, actually it doesn't  say that any sense, targeting or otherwise,  
is needed. It only says what happens if you don't have one, not that  
you need one. 
 
> I recall nothing 
> that states that mental powers are somehow exempted from that. 
 
Mental attacks are exempt from all Combat Modifiers. BBB, pg. 147. 
 
I don't see any reason not to require a targeting sense, especially  
as it has been necessary in the past, and the description says  
nothing about using _anything_ but sight or Mind Scan. Technically,  
the rules don't even say you can use a Targeting Sense. By allowing a  
Targeting Sense, I am already interpreting the rules more openly  
than they are actually written. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 21:10:22 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 11 Jul 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> >>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes: 
>  
> MS> In Ninja Hero, UMA and (possibly) Fantasy Hero, ancient armor is given 
> MS> the limitation of 1/2 or 0 DEF vs guns. 
>  
> Not in Fantasy Hero: there are no guns in an FH game so the limitation is 
> worth nothing.  In modern games in which the medieval armors exist for 
> whatever reason they do get the limitation. 
 
I guess that depends upon your idea of a Fantasy Hero game.  Mine used 
circa 1350 technology.  Hand Gonnes (basically a cannon on a stick) 
existed so  the notation about armor reduction applied. 
 
> MS> On the flips side, it should be noted that there are cases of middle 
> MS> ages armors stopping musket balls and the like (especially from Japan 
> MS> where muskets and armor co-existed for some time). 
>  
> Japanese lamellor was an unusual construction for the period, one of the 
> first instances of composite materials science put to practical use. 
 
And I have seen Italian bucklers made from solid metal with musket ball 
dents in them.  Of course, such instances hare infrequent and in all cases 
the ability of a middle ages gun to penetrate armor depended upon a lot of 
factors, the amount of powder in your charge topping the list.  On  
the other hand, I will admit that in most cases, the armor lost 
the arguement.   
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 12 Jul 97 01:46:00 GMT 
Subject: Re: Mental Flash 
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
Path: october!opal 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
 h > >>>>> "O" == Opal <Opal@october.com> writes:  
 h >  
 h > O> Mental Powers can be targeted with any, well, *targeting* sense.  
 h >  
 h > No, mental powers, like all other powers that may be used to make  
 h > attacks,  
 h > may be targeted with *ANY* sense, targeting or otherwise.  With a  
 h > targeting  
 h > sense one has one's full O(E)CV; with a non-targeting sense one has  
 h > O(E)CV  
 h > penalties.  
  
It's only an interpretation on my part, but since  Mental powers are  
L-O-S, I tend to think they only work with Targeting senses.  It seems  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 12 Jul 97 02:06:02 GMT 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage 
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
Path: october!opal 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
 h > And I can prove that this is patently incorrect.  I would be  
 h > hard-pressed  
 h > to swing the broadsword you describe, and if I was strong enough to  
 h > swing  
 h > it hard enough to cut a man in half I really would not need the sword  
 h > to 
 
 h > kill someone.  But put a Browning 9mm in my hands and I am lethal.  It  
 h > has  
 h > nothing to do with accuracy, range, or armor penetration; it has  
 h > everything  
 h > to do with the fact that modern firearms are more lethal than medieval  
 h > hand  
 h > weapons.  
  
Well, your ineptitude with a broadsword is hardly proof.  Medieval weapons  
were quite deadly for thier time - they produced truly horrible wounds  
that the victim generally died of (due in part to poor medical care).  
  
Modern weapons aren't really even designed to do what a gamer would  
call a lot of damage - most are meant to stop attackers, with death  
being a fortuitous bonus when it occurrs.  The military made a conscious  
decision to go for wounding the enemy over killing the enemy when they  
switched to the M16 as the standard infantry weapon.  
  
However, modern weapons are deadlier than medieval ones in one very important  
respect - they are much easier to use.  Range and aromr penetration don't  
hurt either.  However, I don't think this should be reflected in game-terms  
by having modern weapons do a lot more damage than ancient ones - after all  
both are designed to kill.  Modern ones kill more efficiently - more  
people, in a shorter time, with less effort.  Ultimately, though, it's  
quite possible to get an instant kill with a knife, ax, or sword, just as  
with a handgun or rifle.  A minimally-trained individual is a lot more  
likely to get that kill with the gun, than with the more primitive implements.  
  
GURPS does OK, by making firearms and 'easy' skill, and swords a 'hard'  
one.  Storyteller, represents the lethality of firearms by adding the 
 
degree of successes in hitting to the damage.  Hero, with it's effects-  
based system, doesn't readily deal with the issure.  
 
 
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 23:08:38 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden 
Subject: Re: Losing an Arm and a Leg 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> >Also, it costs more to regenerate 5 BODY every week than to regenerate 
> >1 BODY every turn!   
>  
>    This is the real problem with Regeneration; its structure is skewed. 
> This problem does need to be addressed.  Unfortunately, I don't have a 
> solution. 
 
One previously-suggested idea is to base the cost entire off of the time 
chart. Something like 10 pts to bring your BODY recovery one step down 
(ie, 10 pts to recover your REC in BODY damage per week, 40 pts to recover 
your REC in BODY damage per hour, etc). 
 
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:10:10 +1000 
Date-Warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: more rifts stuff ect 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:33 AM 7/11/97 -0400, you wrote: 
> 
>>once again- i'm pointing out that you can IGNORE the mechanics! just use 
>the setting! 
>>give the mages vpp's! 
> 
>"Once again"? I don't recall you singing this tune before (I apologize if 
>you have said this before, but the impression I've gotten from you is "The 
>source material is great, so forgive the bad mechanics and play anyways, 
>it's a quality product.")...anyway, if you play Rifts with HERO mechanics, 
>you aren't playing Rifts - you're playing HERO in the Rifts setting 
>(heh..I'll bet Kevin Siembedina will back me up on this one, whatever that's 
>worth - but let's not get into Kevin right now). When people say 'Rifts 
>sucks' they usually mean 'the mechanics suck and the setting is imbalanced'. 
>I could play 'Wizards' under the HERO system - that doesn't change the fact 
>that Wizards, in large part, sucked (hell, it completely sucked...). 
> 
 
i haven't even played the damn thing! i think that's innacurate- as i said, (again)  
you take what you want, and leaqve the rest. You saying that successsful games like vampire have good mechanics?  
 
 
 
>Anyway, a lot of us are saying 'the mechanics of Palladium sucks, and there 
>are tremendous logical gaps in the setting material'. Your saying 'but the 
>background material is good!' doesn't change that fact. I like a lot of the 
>background material in Rifts. But under Palladium mechanics, I don't want to 
>play the game (too much aggrivation and inconsistancy) - therefore, IMHO, it 
>sucks as an RPG (but not a source material). 
> 
 
an rpg is more than mechanics- i'd say specific mechanics are the least important part of an rpg, from the perspective of value-for money, but not nesecarily sales. .  
 
 
 
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
>else's house?" 
>-NHS #56 
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>John D. Prins 
>jprins@interhop.net 
> 
> 
> 
> 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 23:13:59 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Bryan Berggren wrote: 
 
> At 08:53 PM 7/8/97 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
> >If the minimal level is more than you'd ever want, it certainly does - 
> >the Power forces you to spend points for nothing, which is hardly 
> >"efficient". 
>  
> You're not spending points for nothing, you're spending points for more than 
> you wanted.   There's a difference between spending my money on three magic 
> beans and just throwing it out the window. :] 
 
Not a practical one, though. 
  
> >"Only w/ one power" is easily a -1...  
>  
> "Only w/ power" is worth exactly -1/2, since it's also known as "Linked", at 
> least to one school (the school I DON'T belong to, even). :/   
 
Linking a Constant or Persistent Power to an Instant one is iffy, but I'd 
be inclined to think this would only mean that the Stretching could only 
be used during a phase in which the Instant Power is turned on, which is 
less of a limitation than saying that the Stretching can only be used for 
firing that Power. 
 
At any rate, if you use Linked for this, Linked to EB and Linked to STR 
would be the same cost, and losing the ability to manipulate objects at 
range is IMO clearly a greater loss of functionality than losing the 
ability to use other No Range Powers. 
 
> > Try a more standard 50 AP Power... by taking it No Range and buying 2"  
> > No END Stretching, you save a full 10 points. Yeah, you lose 248" of 
> > Range... big whoop; how many of those inches would you ever use? 
>  
> I think it might be useful to nail someone without having to leave Slingshot. 
 
Slingshot? 
 
> But the basic problem remains.  2" of stretching saves you 10 points.  Buy a 
> mere two more inches, though, and once more the OBVIOUSLY LESS USEFUL power 
> (and in this case, we're not even getting into the realm of ludicrous ranges 
> -- 4" is more than enough for people to evade your reach with their free 
> Running, whereas ANY Ranged Power could nail them) costs MORE than the 
> original. 
 
Yes, 2 points per inch is a better price. 
 
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:16:45 +1000 
Date-Warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:57 PM 7/11/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>>PS.  Anyone ever see Kung Fu, or Kung Fu: The Legend Continues?  Just 
>>two more shows to add to the "two-fisted action" pile. 
> 
>Original Kung Fu would qualify for "Two-Fisted Adventure", but KF:TLC has 
>Kane doing to many funky Taoist tricks for my blood (to qualify as 
>'two-fisted adventure', I enjoy KF:TLC...). And there aren't enough barroom 
>brawls. Every good Two-Fisted adventure needs at least one barroom brawl. 
> 
 
 
how about 'he just plain sux'???? let's stick to proge\rammes with at least a bit of  
real martial arts in it, ok?  
 
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
>else's house?" 
>-NHS #56 
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>John D. Prins 
>jprins@interhop.net 
> 
> 
> 
> 
 
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:22:11 +1000 
Date-Warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Indiana Jones, Rifts, what sells, and other off topic stuff... 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:42 PM 7/11/97 -0700, you wrote: 
>happyelf! wrote: 
> 
>> i'd say this isn't nearly as far as say. . . . how could the MAGE technomancy 
>> counquer the world, when at some point at least, the non-tech spiritualists 
>> massively outnumbered the european colonists? 
>> and don't even get me started about star trek. . 
>> once again. . . it's relative to tastes. 
> 
>That is because the Technocracy went underground and started shaping the 
>beliefs of the masses. Instead of engaging on large scale warfare. They 
>changed the nature of reality by attacking it at its source. The belief 
>of the general puplic. Which, in turn, created the force that would 
>become known as Paradox. Another way of looking at it is as follows. The 
>collective unconscious of the masses slaps down a Mage when they get 
>caught violating what it regards as reality. 
> 
 
yes, but how could they manipulate spiritualist non-eurpoeans who maaively outnumbered them?? holo-nets? 
i wasn't talking about warfare, but subversion.  
 
 
 
>BTW, I don't like this take on magic. I never have agreed with it. The 
>above promotes the idea that magic and reality are shaped by democracy. 
>If that were really true, we wouldn't have any form of inventions or 
>technology at all. In other words, I think that the entire concept lacks 
>a certain amount of credibility. 
> 
 
 
yes, hence my point: it's a big discrepancy, isn't it?  
 
 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 23:09:49 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Rifts -- HERO ruminations (was: Golden Age Mystery Men) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>> Actually, mechanics counts for a LOT. I gave up on Rifts because every damn 
>> suppliment forced me to deal with another ENTIRE magic system, three dozen 
>> 'new' OCC/RCCs that are virtually the same as the last three dozen, and the 
>> six page writeups for JUST the stats on thier machines. 
> 
>Sounds as if you got dissatisfied with the entire format of the line. 
> 
>But new magic systems? That is where I believe you are mistaken. New 
>spells and new spell casters, certainly. But the magic system itself 
>always runs the same, from a mechanical point of view. 
 
The only thing a lot of them have in common is they run on PPE. Check it 
out. From the various books, you've got spellcasting (standard, temporal, 
necromantic, elemental to name a few), herbal magic, gem magic, 
techno-wizardry (which has really no defined rules at all, and doesn't 
always conform the the spells used in construction), bio-wizardry (a 'PC 
hands off' thing), wards, circles, rune magic (another 'PC hands off' 
thing). And on top of THAT, you've got psionics to deal with, as well as 
other powers that run off of ISP. And let's not forget those Chi based 
powers which look pretty damn magical to me... 
  
>> Anyway, I made a half-hearted attempt at converting Rifts to HERO.  
> 
>I succeeded. Based on cold, hard mechanical comparison. I spent 10 years 
>crunching Palladium's figures trying to get them to make sense with the 
>Hero System. And they do. I just haven't posted them to the Web. Because 
>I have had Web access for barely a week. 
> 
>But I don't agree with the conclusions that your conversions came to. 
>They are way too powerful. 
 
Not really, I took what I thought a logical extension of 200 years of 
scientific improvement would bring. Power armor portable railguns as 
powerful as modern tank cannons. But handgun weaponry really only saw about 
a 50-70% improvement in power (you only need so much to kill someone, after 
all...) 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 22:13:48 -0500 
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us> 
Subject: Re: Info needed on US Currency. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:50 AM 7/11/97 -0500, Jerry & Jamie Nealis wrote: 
>Gordon W. Rycroft wrote: 
>>  
>> Yeah, this may look off topic, but I need the following information for 
a scenario... 
>>  
>> 1. How do you check a US banknote to see if it's genuine? 
> 
>the easiest way is to burn it.... 
 
  WHich is Highly Illegal, only the treasury dept/fed reserve can destroy 
money 
 
>> 2. What denominations are there? 
> 
>.... and two 1 dollar coins (both a bit hard to find) the Suzan B 
>Anthony and the Silver Dollar.... 
 
   Obviously you've never run a cash reister for a living, I get about 30 
Suzie B-tch-s a week! It's impossible to get rid of the darn things though, 
no one will accept them as change. 
   For the benefit of anyone who has never seen one, they are virtually 
identical to an American "Quarter" in size, weight, and color. They are 
often mistaken for quarters, both by people and machines, resulting in a 
loss of $0.75 for someone. 
 
  Incidentally, in response to someone else's post on the subject, I 
believe the $500 & $1000 bills have been printed in certain years since 
1945. I've had both in my possession at various times and they seemed to be 
in far to good condition to be 40-55 years old. Never thought to check the 
dates on one though, and I probably won't see anymore for some time... (sigh) 
 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net> 
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:41:38 +0000 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 6 
 
> On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Filksinger wrote: 
>  
> >  
> > > Japanese lamellor was an unusual construction for the period, one of 
> > > the first instances of composite materials science put to practical 
> > > use. 
> > Medieval plate will stop rounds from a .45 automatic, quite  
> > consistently, and without the heavy bruising and broken ribs of a  
> > kevlar vest. 
 
Small mistake. _Some_ late medieval "proof" plate, so heavy that only  
the breastplate was normally worn into battle, could stop bullets. 
 
> Some how I doubt that.  Medieval plate didn't always stop soft lead 
> shot from a matchlock gun, how is it supposed to consistantly stop a 
> modern pistol round traveling at a much higher rate of speed?  Where 
> was this documented? 
> 
> BTW: one of the local SCA people did some experiments with plate and 
> guns. He makes armor, so he took an old breastplate and his replica 
> wheel lock and prompltly blew holes through the armor all day.   
 
A local SCA member demonstrated a .45 vs his breastplate on a  
number of occasions. Dented, but not penetrated. I believe it was 12  
gauge steel.  
 
> Keep in mind that armor of the middle ages was made from 16 to 20 
> gague sheet still, similar to autobody sheet metal.  Granted, this 
> was often layerd and tapered to provide additional protection, but 
> it isn't *that* thick.  OTOH it did work well enouigh that by the 
> late 15th C, armor was thick enough to dispense with the shield as a 
> defensive item (which was handy since by now most people were using 
> two handed weapons to cut through the armor anyway.). 
 
By the late middle ages, the heaviest plate was considerably tougher  
than that. Not all of it to be sure, but the heaviest actual medieval  
armor ever developed was nearly 150 lbs, and the breastplate_could_  
stop bullets. In actual war  (as opposed to a tourney), only the  
breastplate (bullet-deflecting internal baffles and all) would  
normally be worn. 
 
To correct my previous statement, and clarify. The heaviest medieval  
plate was known as proof armor. This armor was the variety that was  
described as so heavy that you could not mount a horse while wearing  
it. In one battle, it left men lying around on their backs, with  
their attackers unable to find a chink to kill them, and them unable  
to get up off their backs. Eventually, they used a woodsman's axe to  
chop them up at the joints. 
 
Proof armor was very tough. It was generally dispensed with after a  
short time, only to be used in tourneys, because it was so very  
heavy. For a time, breastplates of this design were still used in  
battle, because it _could_ stop bullets.  
 
Such breastplates which could stop bullets reliably were developed in  
the 14th and 15th Centuries, and were used  into the 17th Century.  
Eventually, complaints about their increasing weight caused them to  
be phased out. 
 
> ************************************************************************* 
> * "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
> *               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
> *            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
> * Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
> *************************************************************************** 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 10:42:56 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Filksinger wrote: 
 
>  
> > Japanese lamellor was an unusual construction for the period, one of 
> > the first instances of composite materials science put to practical 
> > use. 
> Medieval plate will stop rounds from a .45 automatic, quite  
> consistently, and without the heavy bruising and broken ribs of a  
> kevlar vest. 
 
Some how I doubt that.  Medieval plate didn't always stop soft lead shot 
from a matchlock gun, how is it supposed to consistantly stop a modern 
pistol round traveling at a much higher rate of speed?  Where was this 
documented? 
 
BTW: one of the local SCA people did some experiments with plate and guns. 
He makes armor, so he took an old breastplate and his replica wheel lock 
and prompltly blew holes through the armor all day.   
 
Keep in mind that armor of the middle ages was made from 16 to 20 gague 
sheet still, similar to autobody sheet metal.  Granted, this was often 
layerd and tapered to provide additional protection, but it isn't *that* 
thick.  OTOH it did work well enouigh that by the late 15th C, armor was 
thick enough to dispense with the shield as a defensive item (which was 
handy since by now most people were using two handed weapons to cut 
through the armor anyway.). 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:19:22 -0700 
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net> 
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Rifts -- HERO ruminations (was: Golden Age Mystery Men) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
> The only thing a lot of them have in common is they run on PPE. Check it 
> out. From the various books, you've got spellcasting (standard, temporal, 
> necromantic, elemental to name a few), herbal magic, gem magic, 
> techno-wizardry (which has really no defined rules at all, and doesn't 
> always conform the the spells used in construction), bio-wizardry (a 'PC 
> hands off' thing), wards, circles, rune magic (another 'PC hands off' 
> thing). And on top of THAT, you've got psionics to deal with, as well as 
> other powers that run off of ISP. And let's not forget those Chi based 
> powers which look pretty damn magical to me... 
 
Check out the Nightbane Worldbook called Through The glass Darkly. 
Palladium finally put out a set of rules for creating new spells amd 
types of magic. And after looking though that and comparing the various 
types of magic in Rifts, they all turn out to be based on those rules. 
Each just has different special effects. 
 
How Chi based powers work in Rifts are clarified in The Rifts Conversion 
Book. 
 
And psionics? Please! They are built on the same system as magic. ISP is 
used instead of PPE. That is the only difference. 
  
 
> Not really, I took what I thought a logical extension of 200 years of 
> scientific improvement would bring. Power armor portable railguns as 
> powerful as modern tank cannons. But handgun weaponry really only saw about 
> a 50-70% improvement in power (you only need so much to kill someone, after 
> all...) 
 
What you made was a stylistic choice. Not a conversion. A true 
conversion is based primarily on mathematical issues.  
 
But to be reasonable, you have to look at the damage progression of the 
Palladium System itself to gain the proper scale for conversion. 
 
From: BeerCarboy@aol.com 
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:33:28 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Info needed on US Currency. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 1 
 
>Also, if you burn a genuine US bill, you suddenly find yourself 
>surrounded by Secret Service agents.   ;-] 
 
The law only forbids the mutilation and destruction of U.S Currency for 
purposes of fraud, it was determined in court that the Government cannot 
forbid you to destroy your own property even if that property is in the form 
of U.S. currency.  That's why all those coin crushers at amusement parks are 
legal. 
 
 
Carter Humphrey 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
                                                           BeerCarboy@AOL.com 
 
PS: Am I the only one receiving all of these list messages which are 
completely empty? 
 
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:44:57 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Rifts -- HERO ruminations (was: Golden Age Mystery Men) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 2 
 
>And psionics? Please! They are built on the same system as magic. ISP is 
>used instead of PPE. That is the only difference. 
 
That's another problem I have with Palladium. Why did they bother with ISPs 
when they had PPEs? 
 
>> Not really, I took what I thought a logical extension of 200 years of 
>> scientific improvement would bring. Power armor portable railguns as 
>> powerful as modern tank cannons. But handgun weaponry really only saw about 
>> a 50-70% improvement in power (you only need so much to kill someone, after 
>> all...) 
> 
>What you made was a stylistic choice. Not a conversion. A true 
>conversion is based primarily on mathematical issues.  
 
Any change in mechanics will change the style of play - that's inescapable. 
I tried to keep the 'in-scale' equipment at the same relative strength 
presented in the book (i.e. body armor A will have the same % of DEF more 
than B as it did MDC), but I did spread the scales out - there was infantry, 
power armor/cyborg, robot vehicle/tank, and above. 
 
Besides, any 'true' conversion of Palladium to HERO mechanics would be 
unbelievably messy... 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:45:00 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 3 
 
>>Original Kung Fu would qualify for "Two-Fisted Adventure", but KF:TLC has 
>>Kane doing to many funky Taoist tricks for my blood (to qualify as 
>>'two-fisted adventure', I enjoy KF:TLC...). And there aren't enough barroom 
>>brawls. Every good Two-Fisted adventure needs at least one barroom brawl. 
 
>how about 'he just plain sux'???? let's stick to proge\rammes with at least 
a bit of  
>real martial arts in it, ok?  
 
<chuckle> and you're the one telling us to relax about the inconsistancies 
in Rifts? :-) 
 
KF:TLC is hokey, but quite a bit of fun - definitely a Wild Martial Arts 
kind of setting. But judging it on the basis of its martial arts content is 
like judging Star Trek:TNG on the basis of science. 
 
Still, I wonder what would have happened if they actually had given Bruce 
Lee the role on Kane in the original Kung Fu. 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 11:09:23 -0700 
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net> 
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Rifts -- HERO ruminations (was: Golden Age Mystery Men) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 4 
 
John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
> That's another problem I have with Palladium. Why did they bother with ISPs 
> when they had PPEs? 
 
Inner Strength Points represent a psionic character's psychic endurance. 
It is non-transferable. PPE is completely different. I person can be 
killed to release their PPE for someone else to use. 
  
 
> Any change in mechanics will change the style of play - that's inescapable. 
 
Only if you let it. Rifts strong suit has never been its game system. 
But the background is vital enough to consider transplanting to another 
game system very seriously. 
 
> I tried to keep the 'in-scale' equipment at the same relative strength 
> presented in the book (i.e. body armor A will have the same % of DEF more 
> than B as it did MDC), but I did spread the scales out - there was infantry, 
> power armor/cyborg, robot vehicle/tank, and above. 
 
And I'm saying that you misjudged the two different scales. Hero and 
Rifts operate on two completely alien scales. Why do you think it took 
me ten years to complete it? The entire job was difficult to the 
extreme. 
  
> Besides, any 'true' conversion of Palladium to HERO mechanics would be 
> unbelievably messy... 
 
Don't discount it so easily. I was just too stubborn to quit. And after 
all the work I did, the final result ends up being quite abit easier to 
use than you seem to believe. The actual work involved is considerably 
less than what is needed to translate a 4th Edition character to Fuzion. 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 15:35:53 -0400 (EDT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 5 
 
> >>PS.  Anyone ever see Kung Fu, or Kung Fu: The Legend Continues?  Just 
> >>two more shows to add to the "two-fisted action" pile. 
> > 
> >Original Kung Fu would qualify for "Two-Fisted Adventure", but KF:TLC has 
> >Kane doing to many funky Taoist tricks for my blood (to qualify as 
> >'two-fisted adventure', I enjoy KF:TLC...). And there aren't enough barroom 
> >brawls. Every good Two-Fisted adventure needs at least one barroom brawl. 
> > 
>  
>  
> how about 'he just plain sux'???? let's stick to proge\rammes with at least a bit of  
> real martial arts in it, ok?  
>  
 
I'm no kung fu champ myself (I have a black belt in Running Away), but I 
suspect "Real Martial Arts" and the TV/Film industry are mutually 
exclusive.  If you think otherwise, I have just two words for you: Ralph 
Machio!  Now are you gonna lightin' up, or are we gonna hafta go through 
all FOUR Karate Kid scripts LINE by LINE (yes, that _is_ a threat ;-)!!! 
 
-Kung-Fu Grip Eric (Batteries not Included) 
 
(Kung-Fu Grip Eric and Kung-Fu Grip Eric Sold Seperately) 
 
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 13:27:06 -0700 
From: mtelford@vancouver.net (Michael Telford) 
Reply-To: mtelford@vancouver.net 
Subject: Mage Reality 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 8 
 
happyelf! wrote: 
>  
> At 02:42 PM 7/11/97 -0700, you wrote: 
> >happyelf! wrote: 
> > 
> >> i'd say this isn't nearly as far as say. . . . how could the MAGE technomancy 
> >> counquer the world, when at some point at least, the non-tech spiritualists 
> >> massively outnumbered the european colonists? 
> >> and don't even get me started about star trek. . 
> >> once again. . . it's relative to tastes. 
> > 
> >That is because the Technocracy went underground and started shaping the 
> >beliefs of the masses. Instead of engaging on large scale warfare. They 
> >changed the nature of reality by attacking it at its source. The belief 
> >of the general puplic. Which, in turn, created the force that would 
> >become known as Paradox. Another way of looking at it is as follows. The 
> >collective unconscious of the masses slaps down a Mage when they get 
> >caught violating what it regards as reality. 
> > 
>  
> yes, but how could they manipulate spiritualist non-eurpoeans who maaively outnumbered them?? holo-nets? 
> i wasn't talking about warfare, but subversion. 
>  
> >BTW, I don't like this take on magic. I never have agreed with it. The 
> >above promotes the idea that magic and reality are shaped by democracy. 
> >If that were really true, we wouldn't have any form of inventions or 
> >technology at all. In other words, I think that the entire concept lacks 
> >a certain amount of credibility. 
> > 
>  
> yes, hence my point: it's a big discrepancy, isn't it? 
 
	The actual premise of Mage metaphysics is a bit more complex than that. 
There are certain fundamantal laws that are hardwired into reality at 
large; consensual reality is simply a set of limitations on what 
expressions of those laws are allowed in a given area. Currently, the 
technocratic paradigm dominates, so tech works without need of a trained 
will. But at all times and in all places, the consenus can be pushed. 
That's what magic basicaly is: Doing things that the local concensus 
says aren't possible. 
 
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 16:57:50 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Rifts -- HERO ruminations (was: Golden Age Mystery Men) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 7 
 
>> That's another problem I have with Palladium. Why did they bother with ISPs 
>> when they had PPEs? 
> 
>Inner Strength Points represent a psionic character's psychic endurance. 
>It is non-transferable. PPE is completely different. I person can be 
>killed to release their PPE for someone else to use. 
 
Pay attention - if you've been reading the thread, you should know that I've 
got Rifts and know this. But the alternative ISP/PPE system is stupid; 
especially given the fact that Ley Lines (PPE sources) augment psionic 
powers as well. Oh, and a lot of Psionics have low PPE b/c they've 'spent' 
it to develop psionic powers! In a background sense, the two seem the same. 
It's just another stat cluttering up the masses (like HP _and_ SDC, thought 
there's no real difference between the two - Palladium might _say_ there is, 
but they function pretty much identically - and the PFRP just used HP for 
characters...) 
 
Of course, this is all showing the way Palladium works. Never, ever _remove_ 
or _replace_ anything in the system. Just add a new statistic. They did it 
with SDC, MDC, PPE (once upon a time, spells were x/day, and psionics used 
ISPs, PPEs did not exist), Chi... 
 
>And I'm saying that you misjudged the two different scales. Hero and 
>Rifts operate on two completely alien scales. Why do you think it took 
>me ten years to complete it? The entire job was difficult to the 
>extreme. 
>  
>> Besides, any 'true' conversion of Palladium to HERO mechanics would be 
>> unbelievably messy... 
> 
>Don't discount it so easily. I was just too stubborn to quit. And after 
>all the work I did, the final result ends up being quite abit easier to 
>use than you seem to believe. The actual work involved is considerably 
>less than what is needed to translate a 4th Edition character to Fuzion. 
 
What did you do for Mega-Damage? Just follow the Palladium's 'optional' 
convert-it-all-to-SDC rules? 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 


Web Page created by Text2Web v1.3.6 by Dev Virdi
http://www.virdi.demon.co.uk/
Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 09:20 AM