Week Ending July 19, 1997

Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net> 
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 02:45:44 +0000 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
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> On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Filksinger wrote: 
>  
> > > Medieval plate will stop rounds from a .45 automatic, quite  
> > > > consistently, and without the heavy bruising and broken ribs of a  
> > > > kevlar vest. 
> >  
> > Small mistake. _Some_ late medieval "proof" plate, so heavy that only  
> > the breastplate was normally worn into battle, could stop bullets. 
>  
> Uh, big mistake here.  During the English Civil War, musketeers 
> shared tha battlefield with men in armor.  At the time, an armor 
> would set up a new breastplate, stand aways off and fire a loaded 
> pistol into it. Uponpresenting the dented armor to the buyer, it was 
> decalred "pistol proof" (hence the name).  It's also been proven 
> that A: some people only used 1/2 powder charges and B: other guys 
> did a good job faking it with a hammer. 
>  
> Now, I can beleive that there were thick 'bulletproof' breastplates 
> out there, but not that many.  Most armor of this era was 
> 'munitions' grade, cheaply made and assembled and purchased in lots 
> of hundreds to utfit the new armys of the time. 
 
This is possible. I used a thesis paper that I know of as the basis  
for this one. However, I have seen some less than solid  
information in thesises before. 
 
Since you agree that such armor existed, and I agree that I have no  
solid evidence for its being in general use (I'm not even certain  
that the paper actually said that it was in _general_ use, only that  
it was used) , I think we've reached agreement on this one. 
 
> > > Some how I doubt that.  Medieval plate didn't always stop soft lead 
> > > shot from a matchlock gun, how is it supposed to consistantly stop a 
> > > modern pistol round traveling at a much higher rate of speed?  Where 
> > > was this documented? 
> > > 
> > > BTW: one of the local SCA people did some experiments with plate and 
> > > guns. He makes armor, so he took an old breastplate and his replica 
> > > wheel lock and prompltly blew holes through the armor all day.   
> >  
> > A local SCA member demonstrated a .45 vs his breastplate on a  
> > number of occasions. Dented, but not penetrated. I believe it was 12  
> > gauge steel.  
>  
> Different thickness of breastplate.  The one being shot at was a lot 
> thinner I think. 
 
I'm sure it was. Considering that a breastplate for my admittedly  
ample girth would be easily 60lbs+, I can see why one would prefer  
something lighter. 
 
> > > Keep in mind that armor of the middle ages was made from 16 to 20 
> > > gague sheet still, similar to autobody sheet metal.  Granted, this 
> > > was often layerd and tapered to provide additional protection, but 
> > > it isn't *that* thick.  OTOH it did work well enouigh that by the 
> > > late 15th C, armor was thick enough to dispense with the shield as a 
> > > defensive item (which was handy since by now most people were using 
> > > two handed weapons to cut through the armor anyway.). 
> >  
> > By the late middle ages, the heaviest plate was considerably tougher  
> > than that. Not all of it to be sure, but the heaviest actual medieval  
> > armor ever developed was nearly 150 lbs, and the breastplate_could_  
> > stop bullets. In actual war  (as opposed to a tourney), only the  
> > breastplate (bullet-deflecting internal baffles and all) would  
> > normally be worn. 
>  
> The heavest plate armors were *never* worn in any battles.  There 
> are suits of plate armor designed for the tourney in which the front 
> armor is upto an inch thick, but this armor was ment for jousting, 
> where the wearer only had to sit on his horse and aim his lance at 
> his target. 
>  
> Now, some armors where made to be lared, so that you started with a 
> basic breastplate and added over sections to it to make the armor 
> suitable for the joust.  But such a basic breastplate wouldn't have 
> "bullet-deflecting internal baffles".  Where woulkd such a 'baffle' 
> go?  The typical 16C and 17C breastplate tapers from the shoulders 
> to the waist and has a ridge running down the center.  This should 
> deflect sword blows, spears, pikes and even arrows away from the 
> torso, but I really doubt it would affect all but the most glancing 
> of musket rounds. 
 
I cannot recall the source on this one, though I think it may have  
been the Guinness Book of World Records (only a vague guess). I don't  
doubt that they got the nature of the baffles wrong. This was  
confirmed for me at the same time and by the same person as mentioned  
below, hence the confusion. 
 
> > To correct my previous statement, and clarify. The heaviest medieval  
> > plate was known as proof armor. This armor was the variety that was  
> > described as so heavy that you could not mount a horse while wearing  
> > it. In one battle, it left men lying around on their backs, with  
> > their attackers unable to find a chink to kill them, and them unable  
> > to get up off their backs. Eventually, they used a woodsman's axe to  
> > chop them up at the joints. 
>  
> I have never heard of this armor.  ANd what battle are you talking 
> about? Do you have a name for it?  I'd like to find an account if at 
> all possible.  As far as I know, no actually armor was ever made 
> (for battle) that a man could not walk around in it.  The image of 
> knights being lowered onto their horses for an actually battle is a 
> flase one.  Yes, jousting armors were this heavy, but not anything 
> one actually would werar.  Consider what you have written, would 
> *you* wear something so heavy you wouldn't be able to get up in it 
> if you fell over? 
 
Sorry about this one. A friend, who is a former SCA member and a  
military historian, had confirmed this story for me. I contacted him  
again, to confirm it and to see if he remebered the name of the  
battle, and apparently he thought I had said something different. He  
agreed with you on this. 
 
To tell the truth, Ididn't believe this story at first, which was why  
I checked with him in the first place. Ah, well. 
 
> Now, at the Battle of Agincort, mud, exhaustion and the weather 
> helped to mire a number of Frecnh knights into the field, unable to 
> rise becuase of the morass the rain and fighting had turned the 
> ground into.  
 
I believe this was all he thought I was referring to, the first time.  
Neither of us is certain, as it was about 9 years ago. 
 
> > Proof armor was very tough. It was generally dispensed with after a  
> > short time, only to be used in tourneys, because it was so very  
> > heavy. For a time, breastplates of this design were still used in  
> > battle, because it _could_ stop bullets.  
> >  
> > Such breastplates which could stop bullets reliably were developed in  
> > the 14th and 15th Centuries, and were used  into the 17th Century.  
> > Eventually, complaints about their increasing weight caused them to  
> > be phased out. 
 
As you said, they undoubtedly existed, but were probably not standard  
issue. The weight of a breastplate made of 12 gauge steel shows why  
readily enough. 
 
> *************************************************************************** 
> * "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
> *               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
> *            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
> * Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
> *************************************************************************** 
 
I find myself rather embarrassed on this one. I wouldn't have made  
these claims had they not been backed by my friend, who is quite  
knowledgeable. Since it appears that his backing was a  
misunderstanding, I must back off from a lot of what I said. 
 
The worst of it is, until I thought he had confirmed that piece of  
information, I more or less had my facts straight. I already knew  
that such armor wasn't worn into battle, but I thought that he had  
confirmed that it was, for a short period. 
 
Very well. Let's try this again. 
 
Breastplates which could stop musket balls existed, but were not  
often standard issue. Tests of such plate were often faked. The  
actual plate which could stop bullets was expensive and not usually  
general issue. It was exceptionally heavy, and the few people who  
could afford it eventually stopped wearing it as bullets gained in  
their ability to penetrate. 
 
"Proof" armor, as described, was used exclusively in tourneys,  
though breastplates alone were sometimes worn into battle. 
 
The battle described was incorrect. It was probably a distorted  
account of the Battle of Agincourt. 
 
Given that I like to be sure of my facts before getting into a  
discussion like this one, I find myself quite embarrassed. I'll just  
have to treat this as one of those stepping stones on my way to my  
goal of being always right. After all, I can't learn to be always  
right if I don't know when I'm wrong.:) 
 
I'll do a much better job on my upcoming post on bullet-proof vests,  
I assure you. 
 
Filksinger, who really does try to get his facts right, but  
occasionally screws up royally. 
 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing (unlike our facts) are never,  
ever wrong!" 
 
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 20:15:05 -0700 
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net> 
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Rifts -- HERO ruminations (was: Golden Age Mystery Men) 
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John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
> Pay attention - if you've been reading the thread, you should know that I've 
> got Rifts and know this. But the alternative ISP/PPE system is stupid; 
> especially given the fact that Ley Lines (PPE sources) augment psionic 
> powers as well. Oh, and a lot of Psionics have low PPE b/c they've 'spent' 
> it to develop psionic powers! In a background sense, the two seem the same. 
> It's just another stat cluttering up the masses (like HP _and_ SDC, thought 
> there's no real difference between the two - Palladium might _say_ there is, 
> but they function pretty much identically - and the PFRP just used HP for 
> characters...) 
 
If you have a problem with the way it works, why don't send some E-mail 
to Kevin Seimbeida himself? An option that is freely available through 
snail mail or the Palladuim website.  
  
> Of course, this is all showing the way Palladium works. Never, ever _remove_ 
> or _replace_ anything in the system. Just add a new statistic. They did it 
> with SDC, MDC, PPE (once upon a time, spells were x/day, and psionics used 
> ISPs, PPEs did not exist), Chi... 
 
Hero is just as guilty in this field when it comes to powers and 
consistancy. 
 
> What did you do for Mega-Damage? Just follow the Palladium's 'optional' 
> convert-it-all-to-SDC rules? 
 
No. that would have made the PD of a converted character too 
unreasonable. The difference is a level of Hardened Defenses. SDC is 
converted to PD and ED. MDC to Hardened PD and ED. 
 
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:24:13 +1000 
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From: michael jones <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Golden Age Mystery Men 
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>I'm no kung fu champ myself (I have a black belt in Running Away), but I 
>suspect "Real Martial Arts" and the TV/Film industry are mutually 
>exclusive.  If you think otherwise, I have just two words for you: Ralph 
>Machio!  Now are you gonna lightin' up, or are we gonna hafta go through 
>all FOUR Karate Kid scripts LINE by LINE (yes, that _is_ a threat ;-)!!! 
> 
>-Kung-Fu Grip Eric (Batteries not Included) 
> 
>(Kung-Fu Grip Eric and Kung-Fu Grip Eric Sold Seperately) 
> 
 
 
well, i think jacie chan places back in an earlier era would fit the genre well,  
plus, has anyone seen the second 'gyver' live action movie?  
i would say it sux in places, but is a must-see for a good attempt to  
deal with a superhuman character.  
 
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:30:28 +1000 
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>>>Don't discount it so easily. I was just too stubborn to quit. And after 
>>>all the work I did, the final result ends up being quite abit easier to 
>>>use than you seem to believe. The actual work involved is considerably 
>>>less than what is needed to translate a 4th Edition character to Fuzion. 
>> 
>>What did you do for Mega-Damage? Just follow the Palladium's 'optional' 
>>convert-it-all-to-SDC rules? 
>> 
> 
>hows about useing damage reduction to represent mdc armour? shure it's 
>completly the opposite effect, but it would work similarly in terms of game balance 
>. . . .  
>is precise convertion really that important? 
> 
 
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 23:44:53 -0400 (EDT) 
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Rifts -- HERO ruminations (was: Golden Age Mystery Men) 
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>If you have a problem with the way it works, why don't send some E-mail 
>to Kevin Seimbeida himself? An option that is freely available through 
>snail mail or the Palladuim website.  
 
Oh yeah, that'll work. I doubt I have anything to say that KS hasn't heard 
before, a dozen times. And if Kevin harbored any serious thoughts in the 
direction of revising Rifts, he'd have done it already. And to be quite 
frank, Rifts _needs_ revision. It's what, 9 years old, still on it's first 
edition? Robotech and the Palladium RPG notwithstanding (which would make it 
even older), he can't say that 9 years hasn't shown where Rifts needs fine 
tuning. 
 
>Hero is just as guilty in this field when it comes to powers and 
>consistancy. 
 
There's some power overlap (for example, who needs Transfer?), but it's 
nowhere near as strange as in Rifts. It seems odd that an incredibly 
powerful Mind Melter is practically worthless as a PPE source... 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 14:14:54 +1000 
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Rifts -- HERO ruminations (was: Golden Age Mystery Men) 
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At 11:44 PM 7/12/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>There's some power overlap (for example, who needs Transfer?), but it's 
>nowhere near as strange as in Rifts. It seems odd that an incredibly 
>powerful Mind Melter is practically worthless as a PPE source... 
> 
 
transfer is cool! and otherwise, wouldn't they have all wiped each other out 
in sacrifices?  
 
 
 
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 00:16:21 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
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On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Filksinger wrote: 
 
> > Medieval plate will stop rounds from a .45 automatic, quite  
> > > consistently, and without the heavy bruising and broken ribs of a  
> > > kevlar vest. 
>  
> Small mistake. _Some_ late medieval "proof" plate, so heavy that only  
> the breastplate was normally worn into battle, could stop bullets. 
 
Uh, big mistake here.  During the English Civil War, musketeers shared tha 
battlefield with men in armor.  At the time, an armor would set up a new 
breastplate, stand aways off and fire a loaded pistol into it. 
Uponpresenting the dented armor to the buyer, it was decalred "pistol 
proof" (hence the name).  It's also been proven that A: some people only 
used 1/2 powder charges and B: other guys did a good job faking it with a 
hammer. 
 
Now, I can beleive that there were thick 'bulletproof' breastplates 
out there, but not that many.  Most armor of this era was 'munitions' 
grade, cheaply made and assembled and purchased in lots of hundreds to 
utfit the new armys of the time. 
 
> > Some how I doubt that.  Medieval plate didn't always stop soft lead 
> > shot from a matchlock gun, how is it supposed to consistantly stop a 
> > modern pistol round traveling at a much higher rate of speed?  Where 
> > was this documented? 
> > 
> > BTW: one of the local SCA people did some experiments with plate and 
> > guns. He makes armor, so he took an old breastplate and his replica 
> > wheel lock and prompltly blew holes through the armor all day.   
>  
> A local SCA member demonstrated a .45 vs his breastplate on a  
> number of occasions. Dented, but not penetrated. I believe it was 12  
> gauge steel.  
 
Different thickness of breastplate.  The one being shot at was a lot 
thinner I think. 
 
> > Keep in mind that armor of the middle ages was made from 16 to 20 
> > gague sheet still, similar to autobody sheet metal.  Granted, this 
> > was often layerd and tapered to provide additional protection, but 
> > it isn't *that* thick.  OTOH it did work well enouigh that by the 
> > late 15th C, armor was thick enough to dispense with the shield as a 
> > defensive item (which was handy since by now most people were using 
> > two handed weapons to cut through the armor anyway.). 
>  
> By the late middle ages, the heaviest plate was considerably tougher  
> than that. Not all of it to be sure, but the heaviest actual medieval  
> armor ever developed was nearly 150 lbs, and the breastplate_could_  
> stop bullets. In actual war  (as opposed to a tourney), only the  
> breastplate (bullet-deflecting internal baffles and all) would  
> normally be worn. 
 
The heavest plate armors were *never* worn in any battles.  There are 
suits of plate armor designed for the tourney in which the front armor is 
upto an inch thick, but this armor was ment for jousting, where the wearer 
only had to sit on his horse and aim his lance at his target. 
 
Now, some armors where made to be lared, so that you started with a basic 
breastplate and added over sections to it to make the armor suitable for 
the joust.  But such a basic breastplate wouldn't have "bullet-deflecting 
internal baffles".  Where woulkd such a 'baffle' go?  The typical 16C and 
17C breastplate tapers from the shoulders to the waist and has a ridge 
running down the center.  This should deflect sword blows, spears, pikes 
and even arrows away from the torso, but I really doubt it would affect 
all but the most glancing of musket rounds. 
 
> To correct my previous statement, and clarify. The heaviest medieval  
> plate was known as proof armor. This armor was the variety that was  
> described as so heavy that you could not mount a horse while wearing  
> it. In one battle, it left men lying around on their backs, with  
> their attackers unable to find a chink to kill them, and them unable  
> to get up off their backs. Eventually, they used a woodsman's axe to  
> chop them up at the joints. 
 
I have never heard of this armor.  ANd what battle are you talking about? 
Do you have a name for it?  I'd like to find an account if at all 
possible.  As far as I know, no actually armor was ever made (for battle) 
that a man could not walk around in it.  The image of knights being 
lowered onto their horses for an actually battle is a flase one.  Yes, 
jousting armors were this heavy, but not anything one actually would 
werar.  Consider what you have written, would *you* wear something so 
heavy you wouldn't be able to get up in it if you fell over? 
 
Now, at the Battle of Agincort, mud, exhaustion and the weather helped to 
mire a number of Frecnh knights into the field, unable to rise becuase of 
the morass the rain and fighting had turned the ground into.  
 
> Proof armor was very tough. It was generally dispensed with after a  
> short time, only to be used in tourneys, because it was so very  
> heavy. For a time, breastplates of this design were still used in  
> battle, because it _could_ stop bullets.  
>  
> Such breastplates which could stop bullets reliably were developed in  
> the 14th and 15th Centuries, and were used  into the 17th Century.  
> Eventually, complaints about their increasing weight caused them to  
> be phased out. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 15:00:15 +1000 
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
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At 12:16 AM 7/13/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>> To correct my previous statement, and clarify. The heaviest medieval  
>> plate was known as proof armor. This armor was the variety that was  
>> described as so heavy that you could not mount a horse while wearing  
>> it. In one battle, it left men lying around on their backs, with  
>> their attackers unable to find a chink to kill them, and them unable  
>> to get up off their backs. Eventually, they used a woodsman's axe to  
>> chop them up at the joints. 
 
 
 
this is a classic hollywood 'old wives tale'. It just isn't true, as this guy  
sez, i just wanted to lend my support.  
 
 
> 
>I have never heard of this armor.  ANd what battle are you talking about? 
>Do you have a name for it?  I'd like to find an account if at all 
>possible.  As far as I know, no actually armor was ever made (for battle) 
>that a man could not walk around in it.  The image of knights being 
>lowered onto their horses for an actually battle is a flase one.  Yes, 
>jousting armors were this heavy, but not anything one actually would 
>werar.  Consider what you have written, would *you* wear something so 
>heavy you wouldn't be able to get up in it if you fell over? 
> 
 
no. btw, the idea of knights vs bullets is silly- that's what horse archers 
are for! 
a medievil army, properly equipped fo gurilla-style warfare, INCLUDING a 
contingent of knights, could  tangle well with early 'musketeer' type units- 
BUT, those feudal ] 
types were just OBSESED with cavalry charges. . .  
 
 
 
>Now, at the Battle of Agincort, mud, exhaustion and the weather helped to 
>mire a number of Frecnh knights into the field, unable to rise becuase of 
>the morass the rain and fighting had turned the ground into.  
> 
>> Proof armor was very tough. It was generally dispensed with after a  
>> short time, only to be used in tourneys, because it was so very  
>> heavy. For a time, breastplates of this design were still used in  
>> battle, because it _could_ stop bullets.  
>>  
>> Such breastplates which could stop bullets reliably were developed in  
>> the 14th and 15th Centuries, and were used  into the 17th Century.  
>> Eventually, complaints about their increasing weight caused them to  
>> be phased out. 
> 
 
complaints? wow, those despotic monarchy's must have had really good feedback 
from their cannonfodder-er, troops! *lol*   
 
once again, there comes a time when things become obselete. I'll accept 
'medievil armour vs longbow' or 'modern armour vs firearms', but not  
'medievil armour vs firearms', or for that matter, 'modern 
(kinetic/ablative) armour 
vs longbows" .  
 
 
 
>*************************************************************************** 
>* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
>*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
>*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
>* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
>*************************************************************************** 
> 
> 
 
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 03:01:32 -0700 
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net> 
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Rifts -- HERO ruminations (was: Golden Age Mystery Men) 
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John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
> Oh yeah, that'll work. I doubt I have anything to say that KS hasn't heard 
> before, a dozen times. And if Kevin harbored any serious thoughts in the 
> direction of revising Rifts, he'd have done it already. And to be quite 
> frank, Rifts _needs_ revision. It's what, 9 years old, still on it's first 
> edition? Robotech and the Palladium RPG notwithstanding (which would make it 
> even older), he can't say that 9 years hasn't shown where Rifts needs fine 
> tuning. 
 
Palladium has 5 people active on its staff. There just isn't any way 
they can hope to keep the pace they have tried to. I know this for a 
fact, because I contacted them myself. They can barely handle the 
projects that they put out, and they are hurting very badly for writers. 
I know this because I chose to talk to them. Which they are quite 
willing to do. You just have to ask. I did, and it works. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Info needed on US Currency. 
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Date: 13 Jul 1997 10:17:31 -0400 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Grr... messed this up. 
 
>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> writes: 
 
F> Close, but no cigar. The Federal Reserve _distributes_ the money, but it 
F> is still printed by the Federal Treasury Bureau of Engraving and 
F> Printing. 
 
The Treasury makes the plates, but then they provide them to the various 
Reserve branches for actual printing. 
 
F> Additionally, the Federal Reserve Bank is not truly private. It is a 
F> corporation wholly owned by the Federal Government, much like the Post 
F> Office. 
 
Nope, the Federal Reserve Bank is not owned at all or in part by the 
Federal Government.  This is why it "works" the way it does: one cannot 
borrow money from oneself, because if one needs the money then one does not 
have it to loan. 
 
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Info needed on US Currency. 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 13 Jul 1997 10:17:31 -0400 
Lines: 15 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 20 
 
>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> writes: 
 
F> Close, but no cigar. The Federal Reserve _distributes_ the money, but it 
F> is still printed by the Federal Treasury Bureau of Engraving and 
F> Printing. 
 
The Treasury makes the plates, but then they provide them to the various 
Reserve branches for actual printing. 
 
F> Additionally, the Federal Reserve Bank is not truly private. It is a 
F> corporation wholly owned by the Federal Government, much like the Post 
F> Office. 
 
Nope, the Federal Reserve Bank is not owned at all or in part by the 
Federal Government. 
 
From: ErolB1@aol.com 
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 10:34:50 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 21 
 
In a message dated 97-07-11 11:56:12 EDT, lizard@dnai.com writes: 
 
> I have been thinking about souping up heavy artillery by buying an extra 
>  die or two of RKA, NND, Defense is being, in the GMs opinion, able to 
stand 
>  up to heavy artillery. This would include troops in 'high tech' power 
>  armor, but not kevlar;superheroes, but not large animals;etc. A total 
>  kludge, basically. 
 
Since most modern artillery shells are explosive, why not soup up the heavy 
artillery by linking a few dice of Explosive RKA to the plain 5d6 RKA - say 
5d6 RKA linked to 4d6 explosive RKA. This will do an average of 32 BODY on a 
direct hit - enough to hamburgerize Joe Average, or to put Joe 
15-Body-and-Kevlar down and bleeding. OTOH, Mr. Joe Bulletproof Superhero 
with 20 rPD probably won't take any Body from this, although he'll get 
knocked for some Stun.  
 
Erol K. Bayburt 
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow 
 
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 11:24:36 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 22 
 
On Sun, 13 Jul 1997, happyelf! wrote: 
 
> >I have never heard of this armor.  ANd what battle are you talking about? 
> >Do you have a name for it?  I'd like to find an account if at all 
> >possible.  As far as I know, no actually armor was ever made (for battle) 
> >that a man could not walk around in it.  The image of knights being 
> >lowered onto their horses for an actually battle is a flase one.  Yes, 
> >jousting armors were this heavy, but not anything one actually would 
> >werar.  Consider what you have written, would *you* wear something so 
> >heavy you wouldn't be able to get up in it if you fell over? 
>  
> no. btw, the idea of knights vs bullets is silly- that's what horse archers 
> are for! 
 
It may be silly, but it happened.  If fact, the standard Swiss 'fighting 
square' consisted of lines of pikemen with squads of musketeers at the 
corners.  The usually added groups of men with halbers as well, for close 
up fighting.  The idea was that the pikes kept the horsemen away, while 
the gunners cut down other units.  Men with halberds (and two-handed 
swords) would engage the enemy directly.  When men with pikes engaged that 
would stand and thrust at one another (you best tactic with a 16' to 20' 
spear shaft).  Men with two-handed sowrds (typcially the german zwiehander 
[2-hander] made in the flamberge (flame-blade) style would march up 
between the shafts and either hack the enemy pikes down or hack the enemy 
directly.  Due to the danger involved, these men received double-pay and 
were called 'dopple-[German for pay] men'. 
 
Now I'm not certain about 'horse-archers'.  There were no real mounted 
archers that I'm aware of in Western Europe during the middle ages. 
English longbow men rode horses to battle, but dismounted to fight.  Do 
you mean 'archers vs horsemen'? 
 
> a medievil army, properly equipped fo gurilla-style warfare, INCLUDING a 
> contingent of knights, could  tangle well with early 'musketeer' type units- 
> BUT, those feudal ] 
> types were just OBSESED with cavalry charges. . .  
 
Guerilla warfare was a foreign concept through most of the middle ages. 
Since one's honor was paramount, you met the enemy on the open field and 
cut him down (or more likely captured him).  The better to show your 
prowess and increase you fame.  Now, one the Swiss got their act 
together, their pike/musket/halberd unit were unbeatable.  If I remeber 
correctly, in at late 16th C battle, a group of 1600 Swiss annihiliated an 
army of (hmmm....) 6-8000 French and Burgundians using the exact tactics I 
mentioned. 
 
The Frecnh were real big on the honor and glory due a knight (sort of a 
national psych lim at the time).  This idea of knightly honor directly (or 
indirectly) led to their defeats at Crecy, Poiters and Agincort.  Mainly 
due to their desire to close with the enemy and engae in hand to hand 
combat.  When faced (at Agincort) with 5000 longbow men, a wet, muddy 
field and forest hemming in your troops om both sides... well, the results 
weren't pretty.  (Contemperory accounts say the piles of dead where higher 
than a man's head.  Improbably to be sure, but still...) 
 
> complaints? wow, those despotic monarchy's must have had really good feedback 
> from their cannonfodder-er, troops! *lol*   
 
Heh, re-read your history.  Despotic monarchys didn't last long.  Look at 
King John for a prime example (Richard III for another).  At Agincort the 
French did treat their troops (well, the common footsoldiers) as a type of 
cannonfodder, riding *through* them in an attempt to charge the enemy. 
But in many cases one could not aford to 'throw away' your troops, you 
just didn't have *that* many.  Most battle of the middle ages involved 
numbers in the low thousands, not tens of hundreds of thousands. 
 
> once again, there comes a time when things become obselete. I'll accept 
> 'medievil armour vs longbow' or 'modern armour vs firearms', but not  
> 'medievil armour vs firearms', or for that matter, 'modern 
> (kinetic/ablative) armour 
> vs longbows" .  
 
Accept what?  That one type of armor is proof vs a certain weapon? 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 11:38:54 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 23 
 
On Sun, 13 Jul 1997, Filksinger wrote: 
 
> > Now, I can beleive that there were thick 'bulletproof' breastplates 
> > out there, but not that many.  Most armor of this era was 
> > 'munitions' grade, cheaply made and assembled and purchased in lots 
> > of hundreds to utfit the new armys of the time. 
>  
> This is possible. I used a thesis paper that I know of as the basis  
> for this one. However, I have seen some less than solid  
> information in thesises before. 
 
Agreed.  There comes the problem of "well, they had A and they had B and 
A & B can be used for C, so they must have had C".  Using this theory one 
can prove that denim blue jeans could have been made in the midle ages. 
(They had denim, they had blue dye, they had rivets, they had flat fold 
seams... volia! instant proof!) 
 
> Since you agree that such armor existed, and I agree that I have no  
> solid evidence for its being in general use (I'm not even certain  
> that the paper actually said that it was in _general_ use, only that  
> it was used) , I think we've reached agreement on this one. 
 
Cool. 
 
> > > A local SCA member demonstrated a .45 vs his breastplate on a  
> > > number of occasions. Dented, but not penetrated. I believe it was 12  
> > > gauge steel.  
> >  
> > Different thickness of breastplate.  The one being shot at was a lot 
> > thinner I think. 
>  
> I'm sure it was. Considering that a breastplate for my admittedly  
> ample girth would be easily 60lbs+, I can see why one would prefer  
> something lighter. 
 
I doubt that.  Henry VIII was a *huge* man, even my modern standards, and 
I doubt if his *entire* harness would have weighed more than 80 lbs and 
most likely was about 60+.  A single breatplate, even for one of 'ample 
girth' would probably mass 20 to 30 lbs. 
 
[stuff about super-heavy armor snipped] 
 
> Sorry about this one. A friend, who is a former SCA member and a  
> military historian, had confirmed this story for me. I contacted him  
> again, to confirm it and to see if he remebered the name of the  
> battle, and apparently he thought I had said something different. He  
> agreed with you on this. 
 
Ah. I see.  Well, I do now that the 'knights lowered onto horses' image 
persisted for a *long* time.  The used such a scene in the Henry V movie 
form the Forties, and I remeber see such things in books from the 70s. 
 
> > > Such breastplates which could stop bullets reliably were developed in  
> > > the 14th and 15th Centuries, and were used  into the 17th Century.  
> > > Eventually, complaints about their increasing weight caused them to  
> > > be phased out. 
>  
> As you said, they undoubtedly existed, but were probably not standard  
> issue. The weight of a breastplate made of 12 gauge steel shows why  
> readily enough. 
 
Except no one in the middle ages really wore a 12 gauge breastplate.  I 
have a 12 gague bascinet that I'm sure *could* stop soime small caliber 
rounds (like a .22).  But the real ones are a *lot* thinner. 
  
> Very well. Let's try this again. 
>  
> Breastplates which could stop musket balls existed, but were not  
> often standard issue. Tests of such plate were often faked. The  
> actual plate which could stop bullets was expensive and not usually  
> general issue. It was exceptionally heavy, and the few people who  
> could afford it eventually stopped wearing it as bullets gained in  
> their ability to penetrate. 
 
Fair enough.  I should point out that bullet proof armors existed in the 
American Civil War and WWI.  In both cases it was not used due to its 
weight.  (Although I understand the WWI armor was given to snipers, who 
*didn't* have to move around) 
 
> "Proof" armor, as described, was used exclusively in tourneys,  
> though breastplates alone were sometimes worn into battle. 
 
Except don't call it 'proof armor', call it 'jousting armor'. 
 
> The battle described was incorrect. It was probably a distorted  
> account of the Battle of Agincourt. 
 
Probably. 
 
> Given that I like to be sure of my facts before getting into a  
> discussion like this one, I find myself quite embarrassed. I'll just  
> have to treat this as one of those stepping stones on my way to my  
> goal of being always right. After all, I can't learn to be always  
> right if I don't know when I'm wrong.:) 
 
<shrug> Since joining the SCA, one of my prime fields of interest has been 
the armor and arms of the period.  Upon realizing how inaccurate the 
material presented in AD&D, Fantasy Hero and other games I decided to try 
and determine what was "real" for the time.  There have been simialr 
discussion before about the same topic. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net> 
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 16:59:06 +0000 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 26 
 
 
> > I'm sure it was. Considering that a breastplate for my admittedly  
> > ample girth would be easily 60lbs+, I can see why one would prefer  
> > something lighter. 
>  
> I doubt that.  Henry VIII was a *huge* man, even my modern 
> standards, and I doubt if his *entire* harness would have weighed 
> more than 80 lbs and most likely was about 60+.  A single 
> breatplate, even for one of 'ample girth' would probably mass 20 to 
> 30 lbs. 
 
I meant a breastplate of the thickness described. That is, 12 gauge  
steel. Assuming a breastplate length of 2 1/2 ft., and roughly  
cylindrical armor with a circumference of 50", it works out to just  
under 60lbs. Since that doesn't take into account that the armor  
would not have been quite that tight, and that a true cylinder takes  
up less material than a distorted cylinder such as a breastplate, my  
breastplate, assuming 12 gauge steel, would be at least 60lbs. 
 
That was probably more than I wanted to say about my measurements.:( 
 
>  
> > Given that I like to be sure of my facts before getting into a  
> > discussion like this one, I find myself quite embarrassed. I'll just  
> > have to treat this as one of those stepping stones on my way to my  
> > goal of being always right. After all, I can't learn to be always  
> > right if I don't know when I'm wrong.:) 
>  
> <shrug> Since joining the SCA, one of my prime fields of interest 
> has been the armor and arms of the period.  Upon realizing how 
> inaccurate the material presented in AD&D, Fantasy Hero and other 
> games I decided to try and determine what was "real" for the time.  
> There have been simialr discussion before about the same topic. 
>  
That's certainly true. It is disconcerting, however, to discover  
oneself becoming _more_ ignorant with time, about _history_, of all  
things. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net> 
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 16:59:06 +0000 
Subject: Re: Info needed on US Currency. 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 24 
 
 
> Grr... messed this up. 
>  
> >>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> writes: 
>  
> F> Close, but no cigar. The Federal Reserve _distributes_ the money, 
> but it F> is still printed by the Federal Treasury Bureau of 
> Engraving and F> Printing. 
>  
> The Treasury makes the plates, but then they provide them to the 
> various Reserve branches for actual printing. 
>  
 
Not according to the Treasury Department website, or the documents I  
downloaded from the Federal Reserve. 
 
> F> Additionally, the Federal Reserve Bank is not truly private. It 
> is a F> corporation wholly owned by the Federal Government, much 
> like the Post F> Office. 
>  
> Nope, the Federal Reserve Bank is not owned at all or in part by the 
> Federal Government.  This is why it "works" the way it does: one 
> cannot borrow money from oneself, because if one needs the money 
> then one does not have it to loan. 
 
The Federal government _doesn't_ borrow money from the Federal  
Reserve. They borrow it _through_ the Federal Reserve. 
 
The Federal government controls the Federal Reserve. They do not  
directly "borrow" from it. Rather, the Federal Reserve issues Federal  
Treasury bonds, which are invested in by banks, companies, and  
private investors. 
 
Roughly 95% of the money earned each year is turned over to the  
Treasury Department. This is not a loan either. The Federal Reserve  
is owned by the government, and thus any money it earns is the  
government's. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net> 
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 16:59:06 +0000 
Subject: Re: Info needed on US Currency. 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 25 
 
> >>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> writes: 
>  
> F> Close, but no cigar. The Federal Reserve _distributes_ the money, 
> but it F> is still printed by the Federal Treasury Bureau of 
> Engraving and F> Printing. 
>  
> The Treasury makes the plates, but then they provide them to the 
> various Reserve branches for actual printing. 
 
Incorrect. There are two varieties of money, which can be identified  
by the color of the ink in the serial numbers. United States notes,  
which were authorized for printing during the Civil War, have black  
serial numbers. These had a maximum number in circulation of $300  
million. United States notes were distributed by the Treasury  
Department, and have not been distributed since 1971. 
 
Federal Reserve notes, OTOH, had green ink for serial numbers. They  
were authorized to be issued in 1913. The Federal Reserve notes are  
distributed by the Federal Reserve Banks. Further, the number of  
Federal Reserve notes printed and distributed is controlled by the  
Federal Reserve Board of Governors. 
 
However, according to the Treasury Department, the Federal Reserve  
Bank of New York, and my business class, the money is actually  
_printed_ by the Treasury Department. From 1863 to 1877 National Bank  
Notes were printed by private bank note companies under contract to  
the Federal government. The Federal government took over printing  
them in 1877, and has printed them ever since. 
 
> F> Additionally, the Federal Reserve Bank is not truly private. It 
> is a F> corporation wholly owned by the Federal Government, much 
> like the Post F> Office. 
>  
> Nope, the Federal Reserve Bank is not owned at all or in part by the 
> Federal Government. 
 
The state Federal Reserve member banks are private banks which have  
applied for membership, and which have at least 3% of all reserves  
invested in the capital stock of the Federal Reserve Bank for their  
district. However, the capital stock grants _no_ control privileges,  
an the only financial privilege is a 6% interest on their  
investment. It is an obligation on the part of the member bank, not  
ownership.  Roughly 95% of net earnings of the Federal Reserve is  
turned over to the Treasury Department every year, so they hardly  
need the investment. 
 
The United States Bank was privately owned, as was the Second United  
States Bank. The last of these lost it's charter in 1833, and ceased  
to exist entirely about ten years later. The National Banks started  
in 1863 and were privately owned banks with the authority to print  
money backed by the United states, but they ceased printing in 1877,  
and are not the Federal Reserve Banks of today. Federal Reserve  
member banks are privately owned, and invest money in the Federal  
Reserve Bank. These, however, are not the Federal Reserve Bank, they  
are private banks which are members of the Federal Reserve system,  
with no control over the Federal Reserve Banks. 
 
Federal Reserve Bank itself is under the complete control of the  
Board of Governors. The Board is considered a federal agency, and  
answers directly to Congress. It is not a private agency, and the  
Federal Reserve Bank is not a private bank. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net> 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 00:47:43 +0000 
Subject: Re: Info needed on US Currency. 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 32 
 
> In a message dated 97-07-13 20:49:20 EDT, you write: 
>  
> << However, according to the Treasury Department, the Federal 
> Reserve  
>  Bank of New York, and my business class, the money is actually 
>  _printed_ by the Treasury Department. From 1863 to 1877 National 
>  Bank Notes were printed by private bank note companies under 
>  contract to the Federal government. The Federal government took 
>  over printing them in 1877, and has printed them ever since. >> 
>  
> If the Treasury Dept is in control of the Currency Plant in Ft 
> Worth, then you are correct.  The only two places US currency is 
> printed is at the Currency Plants in Ft Worth and Wash DC.  I live 
> near FW and have actually see them printing.  I also work in the 
> media (no throwing of rotten veggies, please), and a quick search of 
> our archives showed that those two plants are the only places (as of 
> 92) in the country that do the actual printing.   
 
According to the Treasury website and past information, yes, the  
Treasury does control the Ft. Worth printing presses. 
 
One note that may have caused confusion before: the Mints, which  
produce coins, are much more widespread. 
 
> Later, 
> 'Lynx 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 23:11:31 -0500 
From: Joel Vallejo <jvallejo@bellsouth.net> 
Reply-To: jvallejo@bellsouth.net 
Subject: Desolidification attacks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 27 
 
This may have already been discussed, but I was wondering about using 
guns with desolidification.  Say our little ghost character is cruising 
around with her two 9mm and she spots some baddies.  She decides to pop 
a cap into their sorry butts, but wants to remain desolid.  She fires 
her guns.... and then what?  Do I need to purchase "Usable while 
desolid" with my guns?  Or do the bullets become solid upon their 
leaving the guns?   
 
I would appreciate any comments. 
 
Thanks,  
Joel Vallejo 
Justice, Like Lightning 
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/8456/ 
 
From: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 97 00:26:55 -0400 
Subject: Re: Desolidification attacks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 28 
 
In <33C9A6F3.3D38@bellsouth.net&> on 07/13/97  
   at 11:11 PM, Joel Vallejo <jvallejo@bellsouth.net> said: 
 
>This may have already been discussed, but I was wondering about using 
>guns with desolidification.  Say our little ghost character is cruising 
>around with her two 9mm and she spots some baddies.  She decides to pop a 
>cap into their sorry butts, but wants to remain desolid.  She fires her 
>guns.... and then what?  Do I need to purchase "Usable while desolid" 
>with my guns?  Or do the bullets become solid upon their leaving the 
>guns?   
 
>I would appreciate any comments. 
 
 
You will have to build the power for the guns using the "Affect Solid" 
advantage (+2).  It's expensive (and should be).  The specs on the 
advantage are listed with the Desolid power. 
 
 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
john.desmarais@ibm.net 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 23:37:35 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 30 
 
At 11:13 PM 7/11/97 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>> > Try a more standard 50 AP Power... by taking it No Range and buying 2"  
>> > No END Stretching, you save a full 10 points. Yeah, you lose 248" of 
>> > Range... big whoop; how many of those inches would you ever use? 
>>  
>> I think it might be useful to nail someone without having to leave Slingshot. 
> 
>Slingshot? 
 
Slingshot: the Champions' jet.  Substitute any other means of long term 
transportation appropriate to your campaign. :] 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
From: Firelynx16@aol.com 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 01:31:46 -0400 (EDT) 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Info needed on US Currency. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 29 
 
In a message dated 97-07-13 20:49:20 EDT, you write: 
 
<< However, according to the Treasury Department, the Federal Reserve  
 Bank of New York, and my business class, the money is actually  
 _printed_ by the Treasury Department. From 1863 to 1877 National Bank  
 Notes were printed by private bank note companies under contract to  
 the Federal government. The Federal government took over printing  
 them in 1877, and has printed them ever since. >> 
 
If the Treasury Dept is in control of the Currency Plant in Ft Worth, then 
you are correct.  The only two places US currency is printed is at the 
Currency Plants in Ft Worth and Wash DC.  I live near FW and have actually 
see them printing.  I also work in the media (no throwing of rotten veggies, 
please), and a quick search of our archives showed that those two plants are 
the only places (as of 92) in the country that do the actual printing.   
 
Later, 
'Lynx 
 
From: DocWeird@aol.com 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 05:04:49 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: (insert)Info needed on US Currency. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
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  By the way, while all this is going on, does anyone know off-hand whose 
face is on the 500, 1,000, and 10,000 dollar bills? 
 
 
--------------------------DocWeird 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net> 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:54:37 +0000 
Subject: Re: (insert)Info needed on US Currency. 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
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>   By the way, while all this is going on, does anyone know off-hand 
>   whose 
> face is on the 500, 1,000, and 10,000 dollar bills? 
>  
Currency				Portrait			Reverse 
 
One Dollar Bill			George Washington	Great Seal of the U.S. 
 
Two Dollar Bill			Thomas Jefferson	Declaration of Independence 
 
Five Dollar Bill			Abraham Lincoln		Lincoln Memorial 
 
Ten Dollar Bill			Alexander Hamilton      U.S. Treasury Building 
 
Twenty Dollar Bill		Andrew Jackson		White House 
 
Fifty Dollar Bill			Ulysses Grant		U.S. Capitol 
 
One Hundred Dollar Bill	Benjamin Franklin	Independence Hall 
 
Five Hundred Dollar Bill *	William McKinley	$500 
 
One Thousand Dollar Bill *	Grover Cleveland	"ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS" 
 
Five Thousand Dollar Bill *	James Madison		$5000 
 
Ten Thousand Dollar Bill *	Salmon P. Chase		$10,000 
 
* No longer printed and being withdrawn from circulation 
 
>  
> --------------------------DocWeird 
>  
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Subject: Re: Desolidification attacks 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 97 06:51:39 -0500 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 34 
 
Joel Vallejo 
 
>This may have already been discussed, but I was wondering about using 
>guns with desolidification.  Say our little ghost character is cruising 
>around with her two 9mm and she spots some baddies.  She decides to pop 
>a cap into their sorry butts, but wants to remain desolid.  She fires 
>her guns.... and then what?  Do I need to purchase "Usable while 
>desolid" with my guns?  Or do the bullets become solid upon their 
>leaving the guns?   
> 
>I would appreciate any comments. 
> 
This is exactly what Usable While Desolid if for.  Depending on how lethal 
you want her, you may want to just build the 2 9mm first (using whatever 
campaign guidlines you use) and then tag on the Usable While Desolid.   
IMHO, 
a 9mm should be a 9mm, its just a lot more expensive if you want to use it 
desolid as well. 
 
PAX, 
John 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
| Name: John P. Weatherman    | Phone:                             |       
   
| email: asahoshi@nr.infi.net |    (H) (910) 785-1130              | 
| fax:   (910) 748-4632       |    (O) (910) 545-2722              | 
|_____________________________|____________________________________| 
| He who walking on the sea could calm the bitter waves, who gives | 
| life to the dying seeds of the earth; He who was able to loose   | 
| the mortal chains of death and after three days' darkness could  | 
| bring again to the upper world the brother of his sister Martha: | 
| He, I beleive, will make Damasus rise again from the dust.       | 
|                              Pope St. Damasus I (c.305-384)      | 
|__________________________________________________________________| 
 
Subject: Re: (insert)Info needed on US Currency. 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 97 09:06:43 -0400 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: "David A. Fair" <DFair@sdslink.com> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
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On 07/14/97 05:04 AM, DocWeird@aol.com (DocWeird@aol.com) Said: 
 
>  By the way, while all this is going on, does anyone know off-hand whose 
>face is on the 500, 1,000, and 10,000 dollar bills? 
 
Most of these boills are out of circulation, and if recieved at a bank,  
are to be captured and replaced with 100's. but I think there is a link  
on the us treasury homepage to see the actual bills  
<http://www.ustreas.gov/> 
 
  .oooO        | 
  (   ) Oooo.  | David A. Fair 
   \ (  (   )  | SDS International 
    \_)  ) /   | dfair@sdslink.com 
        (_/    | 
 
X-Sender: wbandsis@mail.westco.net 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:38:10 -0400 
From: Charles Badger <wbandsis@westco.net> 
Subject: Re: (insert)Info needed on US Currency. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 37 
 
At 05:04 07/14/97 -0400, DocWeird@aol.com wrote: 
>  By the way, while all this is going on, does anyone know off-hand whose 
>face is on the 500, 1,000, and 10,000 dollar bills? 
 
Actually I think everything except the 500 was taken out of circulation. The 
reason I heard was to make it harder for criminals to transport large 
amounts of cash.  
----- 
Charles T. Badger 
 
 
From: BeerCarboy@aol.com 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:58:48 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: (insert)Info needed on US Currency. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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I don't remember for sure who is on the $500 (McKinley?) and never knew whose 
face was on the $1000, on the $10000 it was some administration's secretary 
of the treasury rather than a president, I think maybe it was Andrew Mellon . 
. . 
 
 
 
Carter Humphrey 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
                                                           BeerCarboy@AOL.com 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 14 Jul 97 16:00:04 GMT 
Subject: Desolid guns... 
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
Path: october!opal 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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 h > So much for a character with desolidification. But what about items  
 h > which  
 h > are desolid?  
 h >  
 h > Example:The Ghostblade, a longsword whose blade is desolid but which  
 h > has  
 h > Affects Real World. (The hilt is solid, so non-desolid characters can  
 h > wield  
 h > it) What would effects be?  
  
  
HKA, with Affects Desolid.  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 14 Jul 97 16:05:06 GMT 
X-To: herolist@october.com (herolist)  h > BG> At 01:46 AM 7/12/97 GMT, Opal wrote:  h > >> It's only an interpretation on my part, but since  Mental powers  h > are  h > >> L-O-S, I tend to think they only work with Targeting senses.  h >  h > BG>    I tend to go with you on this, Opal.  Does anyone on the list  h > have a  h > BG> strong argument to the contrary?  h >  h > Yes: IIRC touch is generally not a targeting sense with humans and  h > humanoids, yet touch (no range) is often required for the use of th 
Subject: Re: Mental Flash 
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com 
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Path: october!opal 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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To: herolist@october.com (herolist)  
 h > BG> At 01:46 AM 7/12/97 GMT, Opal wrote:  
 h > >> It's only an interpretation on my part, but since  Mental powers  
 h > are  
 h > >> L-O-S, I tend to think they only work with Targeting senses.  
 h >  
 h > BG>    I tend to go with you on this, Opal.  Does anyone on the list  
 h > have a  
 h > BG> strong argument to the contrary?  
 h >  
 h > Yes: IIRC touch is generally not a targeting sense with humans and  
 h > humanoids, yet touch (no range) is often required for the use of the  
 h > stronger aspects of mental powers.  
  
Touch isn't really treated as a sense in Hero - you can't be invisible  
to it for instance.  
  
However, I do not doubt that, if you are touching something, you  
can hit it at no penalty and know exactly where it is.  
  
So, if you're touching someone, looking at them, or scanning them  
with Mind Scan, or using some sense bought targeting, you can use  
mental powers against them.  If you just hear something rustling in  
the bushes, you can't.  
  
Of course, this isn't spelled out in the rules - it's not possible  
to spell out every possible circumstance - but, I think it's a  
reasonable interpretation.  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 14 Jul 97 16:13:08 GMT 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage 
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com 
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Path: october!opal 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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 h > >That's a good point: how would a kevlar vest protect against a  
 h > crossbow  
 h > >bolt?  
 h >  
 h > Well, you might get some protection from the heavy diamond heads  
 h > (diamond  
 h > shaped), but any edged weapon including crossbow bolts and arrows will  
 h > punch  
 h > right through a standard 'kevlar' vest. It's another story if it's a  
 h > kevlar  
 h > vest with alloy plates (police bulletproof vests). Kevlar just doesn't  
 h > deal  
 h > well with piercing damage at all - in fact, I wonder how it handles  
 h > the  
 h > low-deformation steel bullets used in warfare (as opposed to the  
 h > relatively  
 h > squishy lead bullets).  
  
Kevlar is pretty tough.  Cross-bow bolts, arrows, knives, swords,  
etc, won't consistently *penetrate* kevalar.  However, since kevlar  
has little mass (unlike chain maile, for instance), the protected  
character would still take a lot of damage, possibly even a rather  
nasty penetrating wound, with the kevlar shoved into it <ik!>  
  
Kevlar won't stop most rifle rounds, which is what I think you're  
talking about.  Come to think of it, the heavy, plate-armor penetrating  
quarrels and heavy pull bows, probably would defeat kevlar, there  
power is comprable to that of many rifles (but not the velocity...)  
  
Hmph, now I'm not so sure.  Thanks.  :(  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:02:08 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: (insert)Info needed on US Currency. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 45 
 
At 05:04 AM 7/14/97 -0400, DocWeird@aol.com wrote: 
>  By the way, while all this is going on, does anyone know off-hand whose 
>face is on the 500, 1,000, and 10,000 dollar bills? 
 
   Of the myriad disadvantages of doing one's mail from the public library, 
there's still the advantage that, when someone asks a question like this, 
one can always jump up and grab the latest reliable authority in such 
matteres (in this case, the World Book Encyclopedia) and look it up. 
   The answers, for all bills in fact: 
 
   $1: George Washington (front)/Great Seal (back) 
   $2: Thomas Jefferson/Signing of the Declaration of Independence 
   $5: Abraham Lincoln/Lincoln Memorial 
   $10: Alexander Hamilton/US Treasury 
   $20: Andrew Jackson/White House 
   $50: Ulysses S. Grant/US Capitol 
   $100: Benjamin Franklin/Independence Hall 
 
   I don't have the information about the backs of the higher bills, but 
here are the answers to the specific question you asked: 
 
   $500: William McKinley 
   $1000: Grover Cleveland 
   $5000: James Madison 
   $10,000: Salmon P. Chase 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:02:09 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Desolidification attacks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 43 
 
At 11:11 PM 7/13/97 -0500, Joel Vallejo wrote: 
>This may have already been discussed, but I was wondering about using 
>guns with desolidification.  Say our little ghost character is cruising 
>around with her two 9mm and she spots some baddies.  She decides to pop 
>a cap into their sorry butts, but wants to remain desolid.  She fires 
>her guns.... and then what?  Do I need to purchase "Usable while 
>desolid" with my guns?  Or do the bullets become solid upon their 
>leaving the guns?   
> 
>I would appreciate any comments. 
 
   Per the rulebook, the guns would have to be bought with the +2 Advantage 
"Affects Solid." 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:02:11 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Info needed on US Currency. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
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X-Status:  
X-UID: 42 
 
At 04:12 PM 7/11/97 EDT, William W. Arnold wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade writes --- 
>>>2. What denominations are there? 
>> 
>>   $1, $2 (currently discontinued and now rare), $5, $10, $20, $50, and $100 
>>are in common usage. 
>Actually, the treasury just recently ran out of the supply of $2 bills, 
>and is printing a new supply.  Therefore they can not be said to be 
>discontinued.  They are just unpopular and rarely used.  You should be 
>able to get them from any bank if you ask. 
 
   I did not know this.  Thanks for the info.   :-] 
 
>>   Just as a passing, related note (no pun intended), ATMs generally only 
>>give $5 and $20 bills, and many (such as those in shopping malls) only give 
>>$20s.  (I have encountered a couple that dispense $10s; these are unusual, 
>>though, and I don't even remember where it was.) 
> 
>That's interesting,  I've never seen an ATM that gave $5's  all the 
>ones in my area give $10's and $20's.  This may be a regional 
>difference.  I'm in richmond VA,  where are you? 
> 
>>This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
>yes, but where is that? 
 
   Corvallis, Oregon -- about 100 miles south of Portland.  (I think 
probably $5 bills are available from ATMs here because prices are so much 
lower than in the hot urban areas like most of the East Coast.)   ;-] 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:02:11 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Losing an Arm and a Leg 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Status:  
X-UID: 41 
 
At 11:08 PM 7/11/97 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>> >Also, it costs more to regenerate 5 BODY every week than to regenerate 
>> >1 BODY every turn!   
>>  
>>    This is the real problem with Regeneration; its structure is skewed. 
>> This problem does need to be addressed.  Unfortunately, I don't have a 
>> solution. 
> 
>One previously-suggested idea is to base the cost entire off of the time 
>chart. Something like 10 pts to bring your BODY recovery one step down 
>(ie, 10 pts to recover your REC in BODY damage per week, 40 pts to recover 
>your REC in BODY damage per hour, etc). 
 
   This works for me (at least, until someone debunks it).   :-] 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:02:12 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Mental Flash 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 44 
 
At 01:46 AM 7/12/97 GMT, Opal wrote: 
>It's only an interpretation on my part, but since  Mental powers are  
>L-O-S, I tend to think they only work with Targeting senses. 
 
   I tend to go with you on this, Opal.  Does anyone on the list have a 
strong argument to the contrary? 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:16:34 -0500 
From: Alex Rojas <rojasa@uthscsa.edu> 
Subject: RE: Info needed on US Currency 
X-Sender: rojasa@arwen.uthscsa.edu 
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The page is: 
 
http://www.ustreas.gov/treasury/bureaus/bep/money.html 
 
 
And the info is: 
 
 
Currency		Portrait			Reverse 
 
One Dollar Bill		George Washington	Great Seal of the U.S. 
 
Two Dollar Bill		Thomas Jefferson	Declaration of Independence 
 
Five Dollar Bill		Abraham Lincoln	Lincoln Memorial  
 
Ten Dollar Bill		Alexander Hamilton	U.S. Treasury Building  
 
Twenty Dollar Bill	Andrew Jackson		White House 
 
Fifty Dollar Bill		Ulysses Grant		U.S. Capitol 
 
One Hundred Dollar Bill		Benjamin Franklin	Independence Hall  
 
Five Hundred Dollar Bill *		William McKinley	$500 
 
One Thousand Dollar Bill *	Grover Cleveland	"ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS" 
 
Five Thousand Dollar Bill *	James Madison		$5000 
 
Ten Thousand Dollar Bill *	Salmon P. Chase	$10,000  
 
 
* No longer printed and being withdrawn from circulation 
 
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:22:45 -0700 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: (insert)Info needed on US Currency. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 11:58 AM 7/14/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>I don't remember for sure who is on the $500 (McKinley?) and never knew whose 
>face was on the $1000, on the $10000 it was some administration's secretary 
>of the treasury rather than a president, I think maybe it was Andrew Mellon . 
 
I know Madison was on the 5000, but they dont print those any more. 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:24:16 -0500 
From: Alex Rojas <rojasa@uthscsa.edu> 
Subject: "Face/Off" maneuver 
X-Sender: rojasa@arwen.uthscsa.edu 
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X-UID: 50 
 
I just saw Face / Off this weekend, and was trying to think in Champions 
terms the action of jumping and shooting at the same time.  They seemed to 
not miss very much while performing it and they never got hit.   
 
So I was thinking it was a special skill which gave them OCV and DCV 
bonuses.  But then I started thinking, not a single person got shot as long 
as his (or her) feet weren't touching the ground.  Is this just a special 
DCV bonus for not having your feet touch the ground, or is it a special 
type of desolidification?  ;) 
 
 
Alex Rojas 
RojasA@uthscsa.edu 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: RE: Desolidification attacks 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 13:53:56 -0400 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 54 
 
> Joel Vallejo wrote: 
> >This may have already been discussed, but I was wondering about using 
> >guns with desolidification.  Say our little ghost character is 
> cruising 
> >around with her two 9mm and she spots some baddies.  She decides to 
> pop 
> >a cap into their sorry butts, but wants to remain desolid.  She fires 
> >her guns.... and then what?  Do I need to purchase "Usable while 
> >desolid" with my guns?  Or do the bullets become solid upon their 
> >leaving the guns?   
>  
> Most have said that the guns need to be bought Affects Solid. But what 
> if this were an uncommon occurrance? If the desolid chraracter had 
> Affects Solid on her STR, and can normally punch/poke/grab/tickle 
> objects, but decides to pick up a gun and fire it? 
>  
>  
 
X-Sender: champion@mailhost.cyberhighway.net 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:15:53 -0700 
From: Jim <champion@cyberhighway.net> 
Subject: Beta Webzine 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
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Hi everyone! 
 
I am trying out an idea on the web that I think has some fun potential, but would like to "beta test" it with any of you that are interested. 
 
Please visit: 
	http://www.cyberhighway.net/~jd/cgk/acr 
 
This is the Homepage for what I am presently calling the "Adventurer's Club Revisited" -- a webzine that will rehash some of the material from the old AC issues that are WAY out of print. 
 
For example: If you have Classic Enemies, and are reading up on the Fox, you will see a reference there to AC#9 to an article called "Troubleshooters".  But do you have AC#9?  Well, if you don't, you should be able to get that info somewhere, right?  Well, I plan to add a re-write of that Mini-Organization (this time with 4th Ed and Fuzion writeups, since the original write-ups are 3rd Ed.) and post it in the webzine. 
 
The part of the webzine I want to "beta test" is its INTERACTIVITY.  This webzine will be able to take LIVE submissions right over the web, and add them to the existing articles practically in real time!  So, for example, if you have added a new NPC to the TroubleShooters in your own campaign, and would like to add the background and stats to the webzine article, too, you can do that by formatting the submission in HTML and pasting it into a web form on the submission page.  Wham, Bang! It's added!  (of course, I will accept email submissions that are NOT formatted in HTML - so I can format it - and add it later...it just won't be as fast). 
 
For now, the "sample" article is a take-off on the old "Foxbat and Fandom" column that ran in early issues of the AC -- basically an "Insult Foxbat" column.  Now the Fox of Crime has Usurped the webspace, and is challenging all heroes with attitudes to out-wit him with the written word! 
 
Let me know what you think! 
Thanks! 
Jim 
 
 
_________________________________________________________________ 
Jim Dickinson -=- Portland. OR  USA -=- champion@cyberhighway.net 
Castle Game Knight:           http://www.cyberhighway.net/~jd/cgk 
Join the Circle of HEROs:     http://www.cyberhighway.net/~jd/coh 
----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Attachment Converted: "g:\eudora\attach\Beta Webzine" 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:36:12 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Desolidification attacks 
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At 01:53 PM 7/14/97 -0400, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>> Joel Vallejo wrote: 
>> >This may have already been discussed, but I was wondering about using 
>> >guns with desolidification.  Say our little ghost character is 
>> cruising 
>> >around with her two 9mm and she spots some baddies.  She decides to 
>> pop 
>> >a cap into their sorry butts, but wants to remain desolid.  She fires 
>> >her guns.... and then what?  Do I need to purchase "Usable while 
>> >desolid" with my guns?  Or do the bullets become solid upon their 
>> >leaving the guns?   
>>  
>> Most have said that the guns need to be bought Affects Solid. But what 
>> if this were an uncommon occurrance? If the desolid chraracter had 
>> Affects Solid on her STR, and can normally punch/poke/grab/tickle 
>> objects, but decides to pick up a gun and fire it? 
 
   This being an unusual circumstance, I'd allow it as you describe.  (If 
the Desolid character wants to *own* the gun, however, that's a different 
matter... well, you know what I mean.) 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:59:21 -0400 
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org> 
Subject: Desolidification attacks 
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>>> Most have said that the guns need to be bought Affects Solid. But what 
>>> if this were an uncommon occurrance? If the desolid chraracter had 
>>> Affects Solid on her STR, and can normally punch/poke/grab/tickle 
>>> objects, but decides to pick up a gun and fire it? 
>  
>    This being an unusual circumstance, I'd allow it as you describe.  (If 
> the Desolid character wants to *own* the gun, however, that's a different 
> matter... well, you know what I mean.) 
 
Having had players who sought to abuse precisely this rules point, I would be 
a little more paranoid about what counted as "unusual circumstance" (for 
example, if disarming NPCs became a regular tactic; or my favorite, if the 
character wanted to start carrying knives). A lot of it depends on the player 
in question, too... 
 
Geoff Speare 
 
From: BeerCarboy@aol.com 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 15:08:15 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: (insert)Info needed on US Currency. 
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   >$500: William McKinley 
   >$1000: Grover Cleveland 
   >$5000: James Madison 
   >$10,000: Salmon P. Chase 
 
And last (but anything but least) on the $100,000 gold certificate, which was 
printed only for official government use, we find a portrait of Woodrow 
Wilson. 
 
 
 
 
 
Carter Humphrey 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
                                                           BeerCarboy@AOL.com 
 
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:12:24 -0700 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: (insert)Info needed on US Currency. 
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>   $10,000: Salmon P. Chase 
 
Okay, according to my references, this guy is Salmon (pronounced sal-mon) 
Portland Chase, Chief Justice of the US presiding when Andrew Johnson was 
impeached, and was responsible as the Secretary of Treasury for creating the 
national bank system.  
 
Never heard of this guy until the money posts, how about that. 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:14:37 -0700 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: "Face/Off" maneuver 
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>I just saw Face / Off this weekend, and was trying to think in Champions 
>terms the action of jumping and shooting at the same time.  They seemed to 
>not miss very much while performing it and they never got hit.   
 
There would have to be a whole new set of rules made for Woo Hero, including 
the ability to NEVER miss if you are a main character, unless it is 
targetting the main villain :) 
 
Woos stuff is fun to watch, but as a game it would be unmanagable. 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"jvallejo@bellsouth.net\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 97 20:25:24  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Desolidification attacks 
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On Sun, 13 Jul 1997 23:11:31 -0500, Joel Vallejo wrote: 
 
>This may have already been discussed, but I was wondering about using 
>guns with desolidification.  Say our little ghost character is cruising 
>around with her two 9mm and she spots some baddies.  She decides to pop 
>a cap into their sorry butts, but wants to remain desolid.  She fires 
>her guns.... and then what?  Do I need to purchase "Usable while 
>desolid" with my guns?  Or do the bullets become solid upon their 
>leaving the guns?   
 
Affects Real World (+2) 
 
qts 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 97 20:36:02  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Mental Flash 
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On Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:02:12 -0700 (PDT), Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>At 01:46 AM 7/12/97 GMT, Opal wrote: 
>>It's only an interpretation on my part, but since  Mental powers are  
>>L-O-S, I tend to think they only work with Targeting senses. 
> 
>   I tend to go with you on this, Opal.  Does anyone on the list have a 
>strong argument to the contrary? 
 
LOS is not the same as 'only work with Targeting senses' 
 
eg smelling someone upwind - round a canyon wall. 
 
And what's the range on 'Mental Awareness'? 
 
qts 
 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:54:55 +0000 
Subject: Re: Mental Flash 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
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> On Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:02:12 -0700 (PDT), Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
> >At 01:46 AM 7/12/97 GMT, Opal wrote: 
> >>It's only an interpretation on my part, but since  Mental powers are  
> >>L-O-S, I tend to think they only work with Targeting senses. 
> > 
> >   I tend to go with you on this, Opal.  Does anyone on the list have a 
> >strong argument to the contrary? 
>  
> LOS is not the same as 'only work with Targeting senses' 
>  
> eg smelling someone upwind - round a canyon wall. 
 
Yes, but since Mental Powers work LOS, and the rules only state that  
sight or Mind Scan can be used (nothing about other senses in 4th  
Ed.), I would assume that means you can only hit someone you can see.  
If anything, that argument is _against_ using other senses besides  
sight and Mind Scan entirely, not an argument for using all senses. 
 
I think that allowing targeting senses is the best answer, especially  
since that used to be the official answer, and the only things that  
reference it in the BBB state that sight is the sense, period. 
 
> And what's the range on 'Mental Awareness'? 
 
Treat it as any other Detect, with the same range modifiers. 
 
> qts 
>  
>  
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 21:15:04 +0000 
Subject: Re: (insert)Info needed on US Currency.  
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
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> Nitpick alert!!! 
>  
> Johnson was never impeached.  He faced impeachment hearings on 
> trumped up charges but managed to hold on to the presidency by one 
> vote.  
 
By definition, actually being charged while in office is the  
definition of impeachment, not being convicted. Yes, he was  
impeached. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 21:15:04 +0000 
Subject: Re: Desolid guns... 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
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> At 05:21 PM 7/14/97 CDT, David  W Toomey wrote: 
>  
> Actually, you could buy it as normal desolidification, except vs. 
> living matter. The sword could then swing through walls, armor, 
> shields, etc, and cut flesh. It would be useless against undead, 
> golems, robots, and elementals, though.  
 
That may be the special effect, but nothing in Desolidification  
allows you to attack people with their personal defenses negated. 
 
> (going strictly by the rules, it seems to me that to make a BLADE 
> which is desolid, as opposed to making the wielder desolid, you'd 
> need to build the blade as a character, prolly with the Spirit 
> rules. 
 
No. Characters with this ability might have this power description  
special effect, but must buy the power to harm others in this unusual  
manner independently. 
 
> Maybe a good topic for discussion is building items with 
> powers, as opposed to items which GRANT powers. A sword with 2 or 3 
> points of extra rDEF is going to be hard to break, 
 
Good idea. However, an _indestructible_ blade costs no more, under  
the Focus rules, than a breakable but replacible blade. That is why  
Independent items are often bought as Unbreakable Foci. 
 
>  or with Life 
> Support:Can survive underwater would never rust.  
 
Special effect. After all, a stainless steel blade or a ceramic blade  
wouldn't necessarily rust. True, you can't get these readily in a  
fantasy campaign, but that just means that they are more costly to  
buy with money _in_ the game, not that the blade costs more  
character points. 
 
>A suit of chain 
> mail with Invisibility to Sight and Hearing would be great to wear 
> to the formal ball when you know Assassins are about. Etc.) 
 
Armor, Inobvious Inaccessible Focus. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 21:15:04 +0000 
Subject: Re: Mental Flash 
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> >>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
>  
> BG>    I tend to go with you on this, Opal.  Does anyone on the list 
> have a BG> strong argument to the contrary? 
>  
> Yes: IIRC touch is generally not a targeting sense with humans and 
> humanoids, yet touch (no range) is often required for the use of the 
> stronger aspects of mental powers. 
 
You can create a character whose mental powers are more effective at  
no range, but that is not an effect of standard mental powers. Thus,  
it would only apply to your character. 
 
OTOH, the description for why touch is not a targeting power is such  
that I would allow it to be used for Mental powers, even if I  
wouldn't allow normal hearing or smell. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:15:28 -0700 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Desolid guns... 
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So much for a character with desolidification. But what about items which 
are desolid? 
 
Example:The Ghostblade, a longsword whose blade is desolid but which has 
Affects Real World. (The hilt is solid, so non-desolid characters can wield 
it) What would effects be? 
 
One could argue, 'none' -- that since the sword can affect the real world, 
anything parrying it, etc, would be struck. But that kind of takes the fun 
out of it. I want a sword that cannot be parried and that ignroes armor, 
but which cleaves flesh. 
 
Perhaps a better way to buy it would be NND HKA (+2), Defense is anything 
which affects desolid, or specially sanctified metal, or whatever. (I know, 
NND HKA's "don't exist". But I have used them for years, mostly for 
powerful spells in Fantasy games, and make sure the non-normal defenses are 
easy to figure out and relatively common) 
 
But while we're on the subject, since Hero has no rules for parrying per 
se, how would you make a sword which cannot be parried? "Immune to Block or 
Disarm"? Or a simple plus to OCV, to represent it must be dodged, rather 
than parried? 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 21:18:14 +0000 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
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> That's a good point: how would a kevlar vest protect against a 
> crossbow bolt? 
 
Very, very badly. Without hardened plates, kevlar would do very  
poorly. Especially if it used a war point, which was designed to go  
through armor, rather than a hunting point. 
 
Not that it would make much difference. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 17:36:42 -0400 
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org> 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Desolid guns... 
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> Example:The Ghostblade, a longsword whose blade is desolid but which has 
> Affects Real World. (The hilt is solid, so non-desolid characters can wield 
> it) What would effects be? 
>  
> One could argue, 'none' -- that since the sword can affect the real world, 
> anything parrying it, etc, would be struck. But that kind of takes the fun 
> out of it. I want a sword that cannot be parried and that ignroes armor, 
> but which cleaves flesh. 
 
> Perhaps a better way to buy it would be NND HKA (+2), Defense is anything 
> which affects desolid, or specially sanctified metal, or whatever. (I know, 
> NND HKA's "don't exist". But I have used them for years, mostly for 
> powerful spells in Fantasy games, and make sure the non-normal defenses are 
> easy to figure out and relatively common) 
 
A way which freaks GMs out less is to buy extra dice of HKA, "only for 
countering armor". If you buy as much damage as you are likely to face in 
armor, then you get the same effect as an NND which does BODY, but in a more 
quantifiable way. (Obviously, this won't work in a more "unlimited" 
environment where defenses may be arbitrarily high.) 
 
> But while we're on the subject, since Hero has no rules for parrying per 
> se, how would you make a sword which cannot be parried? "Immune to Block or 
> Disarm"? Or a simple plus to OCV, to represent it must be dodged, rather 
> than parried? 
 
Immune to Disarm is easy: make it an OIF.  
Since parrying in Hero is a special effect, I would buy big OCV bonus with a 
limitation: bonus varies based on special effects of defender. (Thus, you 
would get the full bonus against Parry Man, and no bonus against Mr. Dodge...) 
 
Geoff Speare 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Mental Flash 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
BG> At 01:46 AM 7/12/97 GMT, Opal wrote: 
>> It's only an interpretation on my part, but since  Mental powers are  
>> L-O-S, I tend to think they only work with Targeting senses. 
 
BG>    I tend to go with you on this, Opal.  Does anyone on the list have a 
BG> strong argument to the contrary? 
 
Yes: IIRC touch is generally not a targeting sense with humans and 
humanoids, yet touch (no range) is often required for the use of the 
stronger aspects of mental powers. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 17:21:30 CDT 
Subject: Re: Desolid guns... 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-11,14-27,29-30,32-38,40-45 
From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David  W Toomey) 
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On Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:15:28 -0700 Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> writes: 
>So much for a character with desolidification. But what about items  
>which 
>are desolid? 
> 
>Example:The Ghostblade, a longsword whose blade is desolid but which  
>has 
>Affects Real World. (The hilt is solid, so non-desolid characters can  
>wield 
>it) What would effects be? 
 
The way it sounds at first, a HKA that affects desol, with the special 
effect of it being desolid itself.  As a GM I would allow it to strike in 
confined places, etc for free. 
 
 
 
> 
>One could argue, 'none' -- that since the sword can affect the real  
>world, 
>anything parrying it, etc, would be struck. But that kind of takes the  
>fun 
>out of it. I want a sword that cannot be parried and that ignroes  
>armor, 
>but which cleaves flesh. 
> 
 
Now THAT's a different situation.  That should be incredibly expensive, 
as it is incredibly effective.  My guess would be: 
 
2d6 HKA, NND(body, +2) def=??, invisible power effects(3 groups, only to 
avoid blocks) 
 
			OR 
2d6 HKA, APx2 
+2d6 HKA, APx2, only to reduce armor(-1/2?   -1?) 
 both with the invisible power above 
 
BOTH very expensive, but lethal.  As a GM, I'd be very careful about 
allowing either one in. 
 
 
 
David W Toomey 
dwtoomey@juno.com 
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:18:13 -0700 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: Desolid guns... 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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At 05:21 PM 7/14/97 CDT, David  W Toomey wrote: 
> 
>On Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:15:28 -0700 Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> writes: 
 
>> 
>>One could argue, 'none' -- that since the sword can affect the real  
>>world, 
>>anything parrying it, etc, would be struck. But that kind of takes the  
>>fun 
>>out of it. I want a sword that cannot be parried and that ignroes  
>>armor, 
>>but which cleaves flesh. 
>> 
> 
>Now THAT's a different situation.  That should be incredibly expensive, 
>as it is incredibly effective.  My guess would be: 
> 
>2d6 HKA, NND(body, +2) def=??, invisible power effects(3 groups, only to 
>avoid blocks) 
> 
>			OR 
>2d6 HKA, APx2 
>+2d6 HKA, APx2, only to reduce armor(-1/2?   -1?) 
> both with the invisible power above 
> 
>BOTH very expensive, but lethal.  As a GM, I'd be very careful about 
>allowing either one in. 
> 
Why invisible power effects? I'd rather have it be a transulscent, 
shimmering grey with the usual eerie whine.  
 
Actually, you could buy it as normal desolidification, except vs. living 
matter. The sword could then swing through walls, armor, shields, etc, and 
cut flesh. It would be useless against undead, golems, robots, and 
elementals, though.  
 
Obviously, this would be a Legendary Artifact(tm). 
 
Another way to do it would be to make it a 'Soulblade'...a weapon that cuts 
across the soul itself. This would be an EGO attack which did BODY (+2? I 
forget...), with No Range, based on OCV rather than ECV to hit, etc. It 
would be useless on anything built with any of the automaton advantages. 
 
How powerful this is depends on the campaign world. If it was a 
one-of-akind artifact, lost for generations, now wielded by the Evil 
Overlord, prompting Our Heroes to go on a Long and Dangerous Quest for the 
Lost Armor which can repel the blade, it's pretty powerful. OTOH, if these 
things are mass produced by the  local mages guild, the odds are they ALSO 
sell a salve which makes armor resistant to desolid blades for a 
conveniently limited time. ("Buy an extra bottle -- just to be sure!") 
 
(going strictly by the rules, it seems to me that to make a BLADE which is 
desolid, as opposed to making the wielder desolid, you'd need to build the 
blade as a character, prolly with the Spirit rules. Maybe a good topic for 
discussion is building items with powers, as opposed to items which GRANT 
powers. A sword with 2 or 3 points of extra rDEF is going to be hard to 
break, or with Life Support:Can survive underwater would never rust. A suit 
of chain mail with Invisibility to Sight and Hearing would be great to wear 
to the formal ball when you know Assassins are about. Etc.) 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: (insert)Info needed on US Currency.  
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 19:49:29 -0400 (EDT) 
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> >   $10,000: Salmon P. Chase 
>  
> Okay, according to my references, this guy is Salmon (pronounced sal-mon) 
> Portland Chase, Chief Justice of the US presiding when Andrew Johnson was 
> impeached, and was responsible as the Secretary of Treasury for creating the 
> national bank system.  
>  
 
Nitpick alert!!! 
 
Johnson was never impeached.  He faced impeachment hearings on trumped up 
charges but managed to hold on to the presidency by one vote.  An 
interesting sidebar: the man with the deciding vote was a republican 
(Johnson was a democrat) and he claimed that he got a message from God to 
side with the democrats and not with the republicans who just wanted to 
oust the prez. 
 
-Erio 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:10:30 -0400 (EDT) 
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> complaints? wow, those despotic monarchy's must have had really good feedback 
> from their cannonfodder-er, troops! *lol*   
>  
 
Actually, until the French Revolution, the "grunts" of armies were peopled 
by mercenaries.  I guess pre-revolution Prussia had manditory military 
service, but they were the exception.  Monarchies, despotic and otherwise, 
got plenty of feedback for their crimes.  Louis XVI (who was about the 
nicest french king, and certainly a lot less despotic than L15 and L14) 
ended up being killed, and having his wife and young son killed by the 
people's noble revolution in the 1790's.  A lot of heads rolled in 1848, 
too.  The recriminations were often far more brutal than the original 
crimes. 
 
> once again, there comes a time when things become obselete. I'll accept 
> 'medievil armour vs longbow' or 'modern armour vs firearms', but not  
> 'medievil armour vs firearms', or for that matter, 'modern 
> (kinetic/ablative) armour 
> vs longbows" .  
>  
 
That's a good point: how would a kevlar vest protect against a crossbow 
bolt? 
 
>  
>  
> >*************************************************************************** 
> >* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
> >*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
> >*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
> >* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
> >*************************************************************************** 
> > 
> > 
>  
 
-Eric 
 
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 17:37:18 -0700 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: Desolid guns... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 75 
 
>Example:The Ghostblade, a longsword whose blade is desolid but which has 
>Affects Real World. (The hilt is solid, so non-desolid characters can wield 
>it) What would effects be? 
 
The blade would hit solid objects, but not be hit by them; in other words, 
you could not block the weapon, disarm it, take it, etc, unless you hit the 
hilt.  But you would have to guy desolid on the weapon. 
 
It also would cleave ghosts and such with ease. 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 17:38:01 -0700 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: Desolid guns... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 76 
 
>But while we're on the subject, since Hero has no rules for parrying per 
>se, how would you make a sword which cannot be parried? "Immune to Block or 
>Disarm"? Or a simple plus to OCV, to represent it must be dodged, rather 
>than parried? 
 
Parry is simply a block, simple rules. 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 21:18:03 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 77 
 
>That's a good point: how would a kevlar vest protect against a crossbow 
>bolt? 
 
Well, you might get some protection from the heavy diamond heads (diamond 
shaped), but any edged weapon including crossbow bolts and arrows will punch 
right through a standard 'kevlar' vest. It's another story if it's a kevlar 
vest with alloy plates (police bulletproof vests). Kevlar just doesn't deal 
well with piercing damage at all - in fact, I wonder how it handles the 
low-deformation steel bullets used in warfare (as opposed to the relatively 
squishy lead bullets). 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
From: BeerCarboy@aol.com 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 22:14:54 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: (insert)Info needed on US Currency.  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 78 
 
Even more nitpicking!!! 
 
>Johnson was never impeached.  He faced impeachment hearings on trumped up 
>charges but managed to hold on to the presidency by one vote.  An 
>interesting sidebar: the man with the deciding vote was a republican 
>(Johnson was a democrat) and he claimed that he got a message from God to 
>side with the democrats and not with the republicans who just wanted to 
>oust the prez. 
 
 
Johnson WAS impeached!  He was simply found not guilty.  The act of 
impeachment is the bringing of formal CHARGES against the President (or other 
official) before Congress, not the actual finding of wrongdoing.  It is 
suspected that Republicans felt that Johnson (Lincoln's compromise VP from 
the opposing Democratic party) was being to soft on the South.  Following the 
impeachment procedures the South was much more severely treated.  It is also 
suggested by some historians that Booth, rather than being Confederacy 
sympathizer was actually acting for a conspiracy that felt that Lincoln was 
being too conciliatory to the South following the Union vivtory.  If this is 
true then the goals of the conspiracy were carried out even if the primary 
actors were taken in to custody or killed. 
 
Carter Humphrey 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
                                                           BeerCarboy@AOL.com 
 
PS: Possibly useful if you choose to set your Hero campaign during or 
immediately following the Civil War, otherwise please disregard . . . 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:14:08 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 81 
 
>>no. btw, the idea of knights vs bullets is silly- that's what horse archers 
>> are for! 
> 
>It may be silly, but it happened.  If fact, the standard Swiss 'fighting 
>square' consisted of lines of pikemen with squads of musketeers at the 
>corners.  The usually added groups of men with halbers as well, for close 
>up fighting.  The idea was that the pikes kept the horsemen away, while 
>the gunners cut down other units.  Men with halberds (and two-handed 
>swords) would engage the enemy directly.  When men with pikes engaged that 
>would stand and thrust at one another (you best tactic with a 16' to 20' 
>spear shaft).  Men with two-handed sowrds (typcially the german zwiehander 
>[2-hander] made in the flamberge (flame-blade) style would march up 
>between the shafts and either hack the enemy pikes down or hack the enemy 
>directly.  Due to the danger involved, these men received double-pay and 
>were called 'dopple-[German for pay] men'. 
> 
 
u-huh? and how does this prove that knights were effective against muskets? 
 
 
 
 
>Now I'm not certain about 'horse-archers'.  There were no real mounted 
>archers that I'm aware of in Western Europe during the middle ages. 
>English longbow men rode horses to battle, but dismounted to fight.  Do 
>you mean 'archers vs horsemen'? 
> 
 
 
no, horse archers: those mid-east dudes would be highly effective in a  
'hit and run' against musketeers ect.   
 
 
 
 
 
>> a medievil army, properly equipped fo gurilla-style warfare, INCLUDING a 
>> contingent of knights, could  tangle well with early 'musketeer' type units- 
>> BUT, those feudal ] 
>> types were just OBSESED with cavalry charges. . .  
> 
>Guerilla warfare was a foreign concept through most of the middle ages. 
>Since one's honor was paramount, you met the enemy on the open field and 
>cut him down (or more likely captured him).  The better to show your 
>prowess and increase you fame.  Now, one the Swiss got their act 
>together, their pike/musket/halberd unit were unbeatable.  If I remeber 
>correctly, in at late 16th C battle, a group of 1600 Swiss annihiliated an 
>army of (hmmm....) 6-8000 French and Burgundians using the exact tactics I 
>mentioned. 
> 
 
like i said, obsessed.  
 
 
 
 
>The Frecnh were real big on the honor and glory due a knight (sort of a 
>national psych lim at the time).  This idea of knightly honor directly (or 
>indirectly) led to their defeats at Crecy, Poiters and Agincort.  Mainly 
>due to their desire to close with the enemy and engae in hand to hand 
>combat.  When faced (at Agincort) with 5000 longbow men, a wet, muddy 
>field and forest hemming in your troops om both sides... well, the results 
>weren't pretty.  (Contemperory accounts say the piles of dead where higher 
>than a man's head.  Improbably to be sure, but still...) 
> 
 
like i said. . . . . . 
 
 
 
 
 
>> complaints? wow, those despotic monarchy's must have had really good feedback 
>> from their cannonfodder-er, troops! *lol*   
> 
>Heh, re-read your history.  Despotic monarchys didn't last long.  Look at 
>King John for a prime example (Richard III for another).  At Agincort the 
>French did treat their troops (well, the common footsoldiers) as a type of 
>cannonfodder, riding *through* them in an attempt to charge the enemy. 
>But in many cases one could not aford to 'throw away' your troops, you 
>just didn't have *that* many.  Most battle of the middle ages involved 
>numbers in the low thousands, not tens of hundreds of thousands. 
> 
 
*sigh* right! it's not like despots reigned right up 'till they were in the early 20th 
century in some places. . . . try NOT watching so many disney movies.  
 
From: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 97 23:21:47 -0400 
Subject: Re: Beta Webzine 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 80 
 
In <3.0.3.32.19970714111553.00853590@mailhost.cyberhighway.net&> on 
07/14/97  
   at 11:15 AM, Jim <champion@cyberhighway.net> said: 
 
 
>Hi everyone! 
 
>I am trying out an idea on the web that I think has some fun potential, 
>but would like to "beta test" it with any of you that are interested. 
 
>Please visit: 
>	http://www.cyberhighway.net/~jd/cgk/acr 
 
>This is the Homepage for what I am presently calling the "Adventurer's 
>Club Revisited" -- a webzine that will rehash some of the material from 
>the old AC issues that are WAY out of print. 
 
While in general I applaud the idea, you probably shouldn't be posting 
material that someone else holds the copyright on.  Even though the kids 
at Hero Games have been reasonably supportive of people publishing via the 
WWW material using thier rules and background, its really not kosher to 
flaunt the copyright laws quite so blatantly.  I'd suggest getting their 
permission (if they even hold the copyright - it may be ICE) first. 
 
However, if you are looking to create a medium for the publishing of 
original material, I'm sure the folks on this list would be willing to 
provide you with a plethora of unique stuff. 
 
 
 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
john.desmarais@ibm.net 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:59:00 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 83 
 
On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
 
> >>no. btw, the idea of knights vs bullets is silly- that's what horse archers 
> >> are for! 
> > 
> >It may be silly, but it happened.  If fact, the standard Swiss 'fighting 
> >square' consisted of lines of pikemen with squads of musketeers at the 
> >corners.  The usually added groups of men with halbers as well, for close 
> >up fighting.  The idea was that the pikes kept the horsemen away, while 
> >the gunners cut down other units.  Men with halberds (and two-handed 
> >swords) would engage the enemy directly.  When men with pikes engaged that 
> >would stand and thrust at one another (you best tactic with a 16' to 20' 
> >spear shaft).  Men with two-handed sowrds (typcially the german zwiehander 
> >[2-hander] made in the flamberge (flame-blade) style would march up 
> >between the shafts and either hack the enemy pikes down or hack the enemy 
> >directly.  Due to the danger involved, these men received double-pay and 
> >were called 'dopple-[German for pay] men'. 
> > 
>  
> u-huh? and how does this prove that knights were effective against muskets? 
 
I never said it did, in fact, I was making the point that t's just the 
opposite, knights (and other mounted troops) *can't* break a solid unit of 
infantry (as long as the infantry holds it's ground).  Look at Waterloo 
for example.  I was simply stating that yes,, knights vs muskets may be 
stupid, but such things did happen. 
 
> >Now I'm not certain about 'horse-archers'.  There were no real mounted 
> >archers that I'm aware of in Western Europe during the middle ages. 
> >English longbow men rode horses to battle, but dismounted to fight.  Do 
> >you mean 'archers vs horsemen'? 
>  
>  
> no, horse archers: those mid-east dudes would be highly effective in a  
> 'hit and run' against musketeers ect.   
 
Apples and oranges.  I could easily say that Norman knights in ful armor 
would cream any size Zulu army you cared to toss on the field.  Units of 
Eastern syled mounted horesmen would probably smear most units of 
musketeers, but since such things never really happened (as opposed to 
armored knights vs musketeers) what point are you tryin to make? 
 
If you want to set up a game scenario that's valid you should try and find 
a comparable historical occurance.  So, if you are wondering how well your 
Fantasy Hero knights would hold up to the introductiton of primitive 
matchlock guns, look at some battles between the Swiss and French (and 
Germans and Italians) of about 1450 to 1550. 
 
> >> complaints? wow, those despotic monarchy's must have had really good feedback 
> >> from their cannonfodder-er, troops! *lol*   
> > 
> >Heh, re-read your history.  Despotic monarchys didn't last long.  Look at 
> >King John for a prime example (Richard III for another).  At Agincort the 
> >French did treat their troops (well, the common footsoldiers) as a type of 
> >cannonfodder, riding *through* them in an attempt to charge the enemy. 
> >But in many cases one could not aford to 'throw away' your troops, you 
> >just didn't have *that* many.  Most battle of the middle ages involved 
> >numbers in the low thousands, not tens of hundreds of thousands. 
> > 
>  
> *sigh* right! it's not like despots reigned right up 'till they were in 
 the early 20th 
> century in some places. . . . try NOT watching so many disney movies.  
 
Excuse me?  Watching Disney movies?  What exactly is *that* supposed to 
mean?   
 
I am not arguing the existance of despots, or that troops were used as 
'cannon fodder', what I am stating is that the two don't go hand in hand. 
If anything, a despot rules through military force and the troops 
generally are better off than others.  And speaking of cannon fodder, I 
certainly wouldn't call England of WWI a despotic government, but they 
still marched their men across no-mans land and right into the waiting 
machine  guns of the Germans in large numbers now didn't they?  I mean, 
what's the casualty figures for the first day of the Somme?  30,000 
English dead?  If not more?  (Compare this to a grand total of 23,000 
American dead (both sides) for Antietem). 
 
I'm willing to discuss things in a rational manner, especially as how such 
subjects relate to Hero and Fantasy Hero, but I don't care to be talked 
down to or insulted. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From: Firelynx16@aol.com 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 00:50:14 -0400 (EDT) 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: NND Killing (was Desolid guns...) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 88 
 
In a message dated 97-07-14 18:09:14 EDT, you write: 
 
<< Perhaps a better way to buy it would be NND HKA (+2), Defense is anything 
 which affects desolid, or specially sanctified metal, or whatever. (I know, 
 NND HKA's "don't exist". But I have used them for years, mostly for 
 powerful spells in Fantasy games, and make sure the non-normal defenses are 
 easy to figure out and relatively common) >> 
 
I have a sidebar question about NND Killing attacks.  Fantasy Hero says NND 
Killing attack poisons are +2 "because none of these (appropriate immunity, 
radically unusual metabolism, or receiving an antidite) are common defenses". 
 So that means that if the defense *was* common, it would be the regular +1 
for NND.  I don't think that's too strong of an interpolation since they're 
making the very strong point that because it's different, ie not the norm, 
it's +2... which means anything but this different area *is* the norm, ie +1. 
 A quick look at NND in BBB shows that NNDs don't do Body except with 
"express permission of the GM", but doesn't say that they cost extra, so 
they're still +1.  So my question is why does everybody always place the +2 
on NND Killing attacks automatically?  Is this just house rules?  Or does it 
say elsewhere that NND Killing attacks should be +2, even with common 
defenses?  I know they're +2 for poisons in Eye for an Eye, but again, the 
defense isn't common... just appropriate immunity.  Also, does this translate 
to mean that one could buy a normal Stun only NND with just one uncommon 
defense and pay +2? 
 
Thanx for your answers, 
'Lynx 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 04:53:27 +0000 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 99 
 
 
> Kevlar won't stop most rifle rounds, which is what I think you're 
> talking about.  Come to think of it, the heavy, plate-armor 
> penetrating quarrels and heavy pull bows, probably would defeat 
> kevlar, there power is comprable to that of many rifles (but not the 
> velocity...)  
>  
> Hmph, now I'm not so sure.  Thanks.  :(  
 
Manufacturer's of Kevlar vests do state quite clearly that it is not  
particularly resistant to puncture weapons, in fact, not much at all.  
In fact, Kevlar is rather easily cut and abraded, as it is not nearly  
as _hard_ as steel. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 04:53:27 +0000 
Subject: Re: Desolid guns... 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 102 
 
> On Mon, 14 Jul 1997 21:15:04 +0000 "Filksinger" 
> <filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net> writes: 
>  
>  
>  
> >> At 05:21 PM 7/14/97 CDT, David  W Toomey wrote: 
> >>  
> >> Actually, you could buy it as normal desolidification, except vs. 
> >> living matter. The sword could then swing through walls, armor, 
> >> shields, etc, and cut flesh. It would be useless against undead, 
> >> golems, robots, and elementals, though.  
>  
> <snipped> 
>  
>  The only problem her is I DID NOT post this!   My statements were 
>  the 
> reply to this post.  Please be careful when attributing sources,, as 
> I stated almost the complete *opposite* of what was attributed to me 
> here. 
>  
>   Thanks 
 
Sincerely sorry. I cropped the original badly. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 04:53:27 +0000 
Subject: Modern Body Armor 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 101 
 
I could have sworn I posted this Sunday night. 
 
After that medieval armor fiasco, I must assume that my mind is  
slipping. 
______________________________ 
I recently decided to see if I could properly translate real-world  
modern body armor into Champions terms. Of course, one of the first  
things I discovered was that, as always, translation in precise terms  
was impossible. How good the armor was depended up a large number of  
factors, including a number which defied analysis. 
 
Factors that I left out included, but were not limited to: very wet,  
non-waterproof woven vests have reduced capabilities, woven  
vests "bunch up" after being shot, and if not patted down can be  
reduced in effectiveness, smaller bullets that are not as powerful  
can penetrate vests more easily, if they are small enough (.22), game  
damage and penetration effectiveness were not always compatible,  
angled shots were more effective vs woven vests, but less vs Spectra  
Shield and hard armor, teflon coated bullets are more effective  
against hard targets like cars but less effective against woven  
vests, etc. Additionally, I did not take into account the varying  
coverages of different vests. I assumed that all vests were long  
vests, with full side coverage. 
 
When trying to translate the vests into game terms, I noted that a  
large number of the vests did not cover the vitals, yet in the game  
even the shortest vests did. Instead, the shortest vests didn't reach  
the chest in the game, which is exactly the opposi of the real world.  
This is because in the Hero System, a .357 aimed at the heart cannot  
kill your average man instantly with a single shot, but a steak knife  
in the vitals can. I recommend using a house rule I have, that  
bullets do x1 1/2 BODY in both the vitals and hit location 10 (upper  
chest), and both use the Vitals Imparing listing. This helps simulate  
the fact that your vitals are more vulnerable to normal attacks and  
blades, but are not necessarily the best target for bullets. It also  
helps explain why a real world vest doesn't always cover the vitals.  
Lastly, it gives almost exactly the same average amount of BODY as  
the regular way. 
 
Purists will note that I didn't include Armor Mass and Real Armor  
among the limitations. Partly this is because modern body armor is  
between 1/2 mass and 0 mass, making conversions even more iffy, but  
mostly because this was already getting to be a pain. You want them,  
you do them. 
 
There are several types of ballistic vests out there.  Ratings and  
effectiveness are listed below. 
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Type                              Threat 
------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
I                    .22, .25, and .32 caliber handguns, 
                     .38 Special lead round-nose 
 
II-A                 .38 Special high-velocity, .45s, low-velocity 
                     .357 Magnum & 9-mm, .22 rifles 
 
II                   Higher velocity .357 Magnum and 9-mm 
 
III-A                .44 Magnum and submachine gun 9-mm 
 
III                  High-power rifle: 
                         5.56mm, 7.62 mm FMJ, .30 carbine, 
                         .30-06 pointed soft point, 
                         12-gauge rifled slug 
 
IV                   Armor-piercing rifle bullet, .30 caliber 
                     (1 shot only). 
------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
SOURCE: National Institute of Justice, 1987 [144] and 1989 [145]. 
 
Please note that armor of a particular rating will usually stop  
bullets of the next higher rating, but not always. No vest is truly  
guaranteed to stop any bullet. In fact, .22 rounds fired from rifles  
have been known to slip through vests that stopped more potent  
rounds. 
 
Soft armor covers types I through III-A, and is not rated to stop  
most rifles. Soft armors are made of one of three materials these  
days- polyaramid fiber (aramid) weave (Kevlar(R), Twaron(R)),  
extended-chain polyethylene (ECPE) weave (Spectra), and ECPE flexible  
sheets (Spectra Shield). 
 
Aramid is the oldest of the materials used today, and is not as  
strong as the other two. It is _highly_ resistant to heat, however,  
and is even used in protective clothing for firefighters in extreme  
situations, much like asbestos. 
 
Spectra is even stronger, though not as heat resistant. It may not  
stop bullets any better, though, as bullets do not break most of the  
threads to get through weave vests. They slip through the weave  
mostly, breaking only a few threads. It does make for slightly  
lighter armor, but has no real game effect. Thus, the fact that  
Spectra is twice as strong per ounce as aramid may not matter to you. 
 
The last of the flexible armor shields is Spectra Shield. Spectra  
Shield is Spectra laid in one direction, embedded in a flexible  
plastic. Shields have two layers, at right angles to each other. 
 
Spectra Shield comes in at least three varieties, with varying  
degrees of effectiveness and stiffness. The most expensive is both  
effective and soft. It is more effective when wet than woven vests,  
doesn't bunch up when shot (which reduces effectiveness), spreads out  
impact much better, handles angled shots better, is so much lighter  
that some vests can be used as life preservers, and is more resistant  
to puncture from sharp instruments. Additionally, only Spectra Shield  
can create level III-A soft vests. All other level III-A vests  
require rigid plates, as do all level III and level IV vests. All  
vests have multiple layers of whatever material they use. Some use  
aramid or Spectra with embedded Spectra Shield. 
 
Of all the manufacturer's of vests I was able to find, none produce  
level IV armor. Thus, level IV armor is partly a guess. 
 
So, lets take a look at what this all means in game terms. 
 
Woven armors 
 
Woven armors are the softest armors available, though not necessarily  
the lightest. Woven armors are typically made from aramid or ECPE.  
Level I is rarely seen these days, most such vests are Level II-A or  
above. 
 
ECPE makes for considerably lighter armor, because of it's increased  
strength. However, the difference is minimal in game terms, and thus  
worth no points. Additionally, the maximum effectiveness of both  
aramid and ECPE are close enough together that no vests made from  
ECPE without Spectra Shield or other plates are so much as one rating  
better than the best aramid vests. 
 
Woven armor has a poor effectiveness against sharp weapons,  
particularly puncture weapons. Aramid cuts more easily than ECPE, and  
is less resistant to abrasion. (I did not find the difference  
sufficient to give different game effects, however; these things are  
complex enough.) Oddly enough, the woven armor which (according to  
its advertising) is best at stopping punctures is a variety of Kevlar  
weave known as Prism. Prism is specially woven to stop puncture  
weapons. This armor is expensive, and usually used by prison guards  
and the like, who are more worried about awls and icepicks than  
bullets. 
 
Additionally, aramid has the advantage of being heat resistant to  
extremely high temperatures. In fact, it was used in part of the  
nozzle system of some Minuteman missiles. 
 
Aramid 
 
Type II-A 
5 PD, 5 ED Armor, 1/2 Effectiveness vs STUN, puncture, and normal  
physical attacks (-1 1/2), IIF (Concealed vest) (-1/4), Activates on  
a 10- (-1 1/4) (Long vest). Active cost: 15, real cost: 4. 
 
Type II 
7 PD, 7 ED Armor, 1/2 Effectiveness vs STUN, puncture, and normal  
physical attacks (-1 1/2), IIF (Concealed vest) (-1/4), Activates on  
a 10- (-1 1/4) (Long vest). Active cost: 21, Real cost: 5. 
 
ECPE 
 
Type II-A 
5PD, 1ED, 1/2 Effectiveness vs. STUN, puncture, and normal physical  
attacks (-1 1/2), IIF (Concealed vest) (-1/4), Activates on a 10- (-1  
1/4) (Long vest). Active cost: 9, Real cost: 2. 
 
Type II 
7PD, 2ED, 1/2 Effectiveness vs. STUN, puncture, and normal physical  
attacks (-1 1/2), IIF (Concealed vest) (-1/4), Activates on a 10- (-1  
1/4) (Long vest). Active cost: 11, Real cost: 3. 
 
Spectra Shield 
 
Type II-A 
5 PD, 1 ED Armor, IIF (Concealed vest) (-1/4), Activates on  
a 10- (-1 1/4) (Long vest). Active cost: 9, Real cost: 4. 
 
Type II 
7 PD, 3 ED Armor, IIF (Concealed Vest) (-1/4), Activates on a  
10- (-1 1/4) (Long vest). Active cost: 15, Real cost: 6. 
 
Type III-A 
10 PD, 4 ED Armor, OIF (Vest)(-1/2), Activates on a 10- (-1  
1/4) (Long vest). Active cost: 21, Real cost: 8. 
 
Hard body armor. (Note: Hard body armor always requires a hard  
surface (tungsten carbide, ceramics) on the plates for level III or  
VI armor, even when Spectra Shield is the backing for those plates.  
Thus, the increased ED.) 
 
Type III 
12 PD, 8 ED,  OIF (Vest) (-1/2), Activates on a 10- (-1 1/4)  
(Long vest). Active cost: 30, Real cost: 11. 
 
Type IV 
12 PD, 8 ED, Hardened DEF (+1/4), OIF (Vest) (-1/2),  
Activates on a 10- (-1 1/4) (Long vest). Active cost:38, Real cost:  
14. 
 
Various possibilities include woven armor that is resistant to  
punctures, Spectra Shield covered in flame retardants, and numberous  
other possibilities. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 04:53:27 +0000 
Subject: Re: NND Killing (was Desolid guns...) 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 100 
 
> In a message dated 97-07-14 18:09:14 EDT, you write: 
>  
> << Perhaps a better way to buy it would be NND HKA (+2), Defense is 
> anything 
>  which affects desolid, or specially sanctified metal, or whatever. 
>  (I know, NND HKA's "don't exist". But I have used them for years, 
>  mostly for powerful spells in Fantasy games, and make sure the 
>  non-normal defenses are easy to figure out and relatively common) 
>  >> 
>  
> I have a sidebar question about NND Killing attacks.  Fantasy Hero 
> says NND Killing attack poisons are +2 "because none of these 
> (appropriate immunity, radically unusual metabolism, or receiving an 
> antidite) are common defenses". 
>  So that means that if the defense *was* common, it would be the 
>  regular +1 
> for NND.  I don't think that's too strong of an interpolation since 
> they're making the very strong point that because it's different, ie 
> not the norm, it's +2... which means anything but this different 
> area *is* the norm, ie +1. 
>  A quick look at NND in BBB shows that NNDs don't do Body except 
>  with 
> "express permission of the GM", but doesn't say that they cost 
> extra, so they're still +1.  So my question is why does everybody 
> always place the +2 on NND Killing attacks automatically?  Is this 
> just house rules?  Or does it say elsewhere that NND Killing attacks 
> should be +2, even with common defenses? 
 
They are stated as being +2, in all official sources in which they  
exist. However, if the defense was common enough, they could be  
bought down to effectively +1, like this: 
 
2d6 RKA, NND (appropriate immunity, radically unusual metabolism, or  
receiving an antidote) (+2), not vs people with red hair (-1/2). 
 
 >I know they're +2 for 
> poisons in Eye for an Eye, but again, the defense isn't common... 
> just appropriate immunity.  Also, does this translate to mean that 
> one could buy a normal Stun only NND with just one uncommon defense 
> and pay +2? 
 
That is a possibility. I have long thought that NND should have a  
varying cost, dependent upon how common the defense is. 
 
> Thanx for your answers, 
> 'Lynx 
 
No problem, 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 04:55:29 +0000 
Subject: Re: GenCon?? 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 103 
 
> Is anybody from the list going to be going to GenCon? 
 
Well, I live on the west coast, just got out of school, and am  
looking for work. 
 
However, if I win the lottery, I'll consider it. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
From: TRandom@aol.com 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 01:05:34 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: killer feedback 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 89 
 
How would one go about setting up a targeting radio listen/transmit? Range 
modifiers? Only while source is transmitting? Any ideas? 
 
Cc: dwtoomey@juno.com, champ-l@omg.org 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 00:28:28 CDT 
Subject: Re: Desolid guns... 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-24,27-37,41-54,56-72,74-83,86-92 
From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David  W Toomey) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 95 
 
. I want a sword that cannot be parried and that ignroes  
>>>armor, 
>>>but which cleaves flesh. 
>>> 
>> 
>>Now THAT's a different situation.  That should be incredibly  
>expensive, 
>>as it is incredibly effective.  My guess would be: 
>> 
>>2d6 HKA, NND(body, +2) def=??, invisible power effects(3 groups, only  
>to 
>>avoid blocks) 
>> 
>>			OR 
>>2d6 HKA, APx2 
>>+2d6 HKA, APx2, only to reduce armor(-1/2?   -1?) 
>> both with the invisible power above 
>> 
>>BOTH very expensive, but lethal.  As a GM, I'd be very careful about 
>>allowing either one in. 
>> 
>Why invisible power effects? I'd rather have it be a transulscent, 
>shimmering grey with the usual eerie whine.  
> 
 
Invisible, because otherwise it can be blocked.  The blade is visible, 
but the power effect would bypas a block, except w/Danger Sense 
(oops....) 
 
 
 
>Actually, you could buy it as normal desolidification, except vs.  
>living 
>matter. The sword could then swing through walls, armor, shields, etc,  
>and 
>cut flesh. It would be useless against undead, golems, robots, and 
>elementals, though.  
 
It would STILL require the +2 Affects real world, perhaps with a limit on 
those points of "Not vs unliving (-1/2?  -1?)  otherwise it is Abusive in 
most campaigns.   As always, the GM may overrule, but this would be a 
very potent power... 
 
 
 
>Another way to do it would be to make it a 'Soulblade'...a weapon that  
>cuts 
>across the soul itself. This would be an EGO attack which did BODY  
>(+2? I 
>forget...), with No Range, based on OCV rather than ECV to hit, etc.  
>It 
>would be useless on anything built with any of the automaton  
>advantages. 
 
 
This works, and is properly hideously expensive (30 Act Pts/1d6 damage), 
and mental def would still count against it (rare, but an option) 
 
 
> 
>How powerful this is depends on the campaign world. If it was a 
>one-of-akind artifact, lost for generations, now wielded by the Evil 
>Overlord, prompting Our Heroes to go on a Long and Dangerous Quest for  
>the 
>Lost Armor which can repel the blade, it's pretty powerful. OTOH, if  
>these 
>things are mass produced by the  local mages guild, the odds are they  
>ALSO 
>sell a salve which makes armor resistant to desolid blades for a 
>conveniently limited time. ("Buy an extra bottle -- just to be sure!") 
 
 
 
  If you want it as Plot Device (tm), how you design it becomes much less 
important, of course... 
 
 
> 
>(going strictly by the rules, it seems to me that to make a BLADE  
>which is 
>desolid, as opposed to making the wielder desolid, you'd need to build  
>the 
>blade as a character, prolly with the Spirit rules.  
 
To make a Blade desol, buy  "Affects Desol", possibly with the limit 
Desol only, not real world, if you want the blade to be truly desol,  not 
interacting with non-desol matter. 
 
 
 
 
David W Toomey 
dwtoomey@juno.com 
 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 00:34:51 CDT 
Subject: Re: Desolid guns... 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-13,16-22 
From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David  W Toomey) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 94 
 
On Mon, 14 Jul 1997 21:15:04 +0000 "Filksinger" 
<filkhero@pop.netaddress.usa.net> writes: 
 
 
 
>> At 05:21 PM 7/14/97 CDT, David  W Toomey wrote: 
>>  
>> Actually, you could buy it as normal desolidification, except vs. 
>> living matter. The sword could then swing through walls, armor, 
>> shields, etc, and cut flesh. It would be useless against undead, 
>> golems, robots, and elementals, though.  
 
<snipped> 
 
 The only problem her is I DID NOT post this!   My statements were the 
reply to this post.  Please be careful when attributing sources,, as I 
stated almost the complete *opposite* of what was attributed to me here. 
 
  Thanks 
 
 
David W Toomey 
dwtoomey@juno.com 
 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 00:54:28 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
Subject: GenCon?? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 92 
 
Is anybody from the list going to be going to GenCon? 
 
Anybody going to be running any games while they're there? 
 
Looks like I'm going to be going if anyone wants to try and meet up or 
anything... 
 
 
Todd 
 
X-Sender: mlknight@pop.mindspring.com 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 01:20:24 -0700 
From: Michelle Knight <mlknight@mindspring.com> 
Subject: Re: GenCon?? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 96 
 
At 12:54 AM 7/15/97 -0500, Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> wrote: 
 
>Is anybody from the list going to be going to GenCon? 
 
 
   I will be most definately be going.  I have my plane and hotel 
reservations all set up and will be getting my badge soon.  Look for me 
hanging around either the GRG booth (I will most likely be working there) 
and/or the Hero booth, pestering Ray Greer for a backrub. :)  Oh, and the 
Anime showings are a favorite of mine as well.. See you guys there! 
 
 
Michelle 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: (insert)Info needed on US Currency. 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:26:54 -0400 (EDT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 107 
 
> > Nitpick alert!!! 
> >  
> > Johnson was never impeached.  He faced impeachment hearings on 
> > trumped up charges but managed to hold on to the presidency by one 
> > vote.  
>  
> By definition, actually being charged while in office is the  
> definition of impeachment, not being convicted. Yes, he was  
> impeached. 
>  
> Filksinger 
> "Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
>  
 
Heh, that's two mistakes I made.  I also mispelled my name at the 
end of the message!  Hot... day..., thinking... hard... <drool>. 
 
-Eric (not "Erio") 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:34:22 -0400 (EDT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 108 
 
> >> complaints? wow, those despotic monarchy's must have had really good feedback 
> >> from their cannonfodder-er, troops! *lol*   
> > 
> >Heh, re-read your history.  Despotic monarchys didn't last long.   
>  
> *sigh* right! it's not like despots reigned right up 'till they were in the early 20th 
> century in some places. . . . try NOT watching so many disney movies.  
>  
 
On a slightly related and somewhat bizarre note, has anyone else noticed 
that Generalissimo Francisco Franco (20th c spanish dictator) looked 
almost exactly like Walt Disney? 
 
-Eric 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: Desolid guns... 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:58:12 -0400 (EDT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 109 
 
> >Example:The Ghostblade, a longsword whose blade is desolid but which has 
> >Affects Real World. (The hilt is solid, so non-desolid characters can wield 
> >it) What would effects be? 
>  
> The blade would hit solid objects, but not be hit by them; in other words, 
> you could not block the weapon, disarm it, take it, etc, unless you hit the 
> hilt.  But you would have to guy desolid on the weapon. 
>  
> It also would cleave ghosts and such with ease. 
>  
 
This got me thinking: how would you build a power that would affect 
desolid only, and have no effect on the physical world?  For instance,  
Jackie Wu, a martial artist, has no superpowers, but he does have a 
Ghostblade as described in the previous post.  But Jackie's Ghostblade 
only effects desolid, and passes harmlessly through anything that is 
solid.  
 
Oh, and while we're talking about magic swords, I seem to remember a 
character from the 2nd Alan Davis run on Excalibur (back when it didn't 
suck eggs) who had this magic sword that cut through anything except 
a good guy.  He swung it at Nightcrawler (tm), who tried to defend 
himself with a cane, and the sword cut through the cane but left 
Nightcrawler unharmed.  The same sword would cleave badguys in half, 
though.  The sword didn't ignore armor, etc. so I don't think this 
would be a NND... basically it worked as a normal sword would (maybe a 
little better) only Kluyn (the name of the guy with the sword) could swing 
away at whoever he saw with the full knowledge that the blade would only 
hurt evil people.  Any ideas? 
 
-Eric 
 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:12:15 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 110 
 
On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Eric Burns wrote: 
 
> > *sigh* right! it's not like despots reigned right up 'till they were in the early 20th 
> > century in some places. . . . try NOT watching so many disney movies.  
> >  
>  
> On a slightly related and somewhat bizarre note, has anyone else noticed 
> that Generalissimo Francisco Franco (20th c spanish dictator) looked 
> almost exactly like Walt Disney? 
 
That may be, but he's still dead. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
X-Sender: champion@mailhost.cyberhighway.net 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:05:10 -0700 
From: Jim <champion@cyberhighway.net> 
Subject: Re: Beta Webzine 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 111 
 
>While in general I applaud the idea, you probably shouldn't be posting 
>material that someone else holds the copyright on.   
 
[...edited...] 
 
>However, if you are looking to create a medium for the publishing of 
>original material, I'm sure the folks on this list would be willing to 
>provide you with a plethora of unique stuff. 
 
This is also a main thrust of this web format I am looking for.  I will be more than happy to publish anyone's original material in this new forum.  I just think the idea of "Interactive Webzine" is nifty! 
 
If you, or anyone else on the list is interested in submitting an article, I'll even format it in HTML for them if they don't have the time or the means to doing it themselves. 
 
Please send any submissions to me by email, and feel free to attach any files (like maps, art, or MS Word files), and I will publish it in the webzine! 
 
TTYL, 
Jim 
 
_________________________________________________________________ 
Jim Dickinson -=- Portland. OR  USA -=- champion@cyberhighway.net 
Castle Game Knight:           http://www.cyberhighway.net/~jd/cgk 
Join the Circle of HEROs:     http://www.cyberhighway.net/~jd/coh 
----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Attachment Converted: "g:\eudora\attach\Re Beta Webzine" 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:17:31 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Desolid guns... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 114 
 
>This got me thinking: how would you build a power that would affect 
>desolid only, and have no effect on the physical world?  For instance,  
>Jackie Wu, a martial artist, has no superpowers, but he does have a 
>Ghostblade as described in the previous post.  But Jackie's Ghostblade 
>only effects desolid, and passes harmlessly through anything that is 
>solid.  
 
HKA, Affects Desolid (+1/2), Not Vs. Solid (-2) [I think it's worth -2, 
unless you're always fighting ghosts...]. 
 
>Oh, and while we're talking about magic swords, I seem to remember a 
>character from the 2nd Alan Davis run on Excalibur (back when it didn't 
>suck eggs) who had this magic sword that cut through anything except 
>a good guy. 
 
That's Kylun, with his Mystic Swords of Zzrah (sp?). 
 
>  He swung it at Nightcrawler (tm), who tried to defend 
>himself with a cane, and the sword cut through the cane but left 
>Nightcrawler unharmed.  The same sword would cleave badguys in half, 
>though.  The sword didn't ignore armor, etc. so I don't think this 
>would be a NND... basically it worked as a normal sword would (maybe a 
>little better) only Kluyn (the name of the guy with the sword) could swing 
>away at whoever he saw with the full knowledge that the blade would only 
>hurt evil people.  Any ideas? 
 
Well, it's sure the hell not a limitation. I'd go for this: 
 
HKA, Trigger: Turns Off If Used Vs. Good/Innocents (+1/4), with 
 
Detect Good/Innocence, Sense, Linked to HKA (-1/2) [you need the detect for 
the trigger]. 
 
After all, there's no reason a Trigger couldn't be used to turn a power off. 
If you want to get nitpicky about resetting the trigger, buy Continious and 
Persistant and Always On on the Trigger advantage - it should be cheap. 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:17:35 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 113 
 
>> On a slightly related and somewhat bizarre note, has anyone else noticed 
>> that Generalissimo Francisco Franco (20th c spanish dictator) looked 
>> almost exactly like Walt Disney? 
> 
>That may be, but he's still dead. 
 
<smacka-smacka-smacka-smacka> 
 
I guess somebody had to say it...<groan> 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:25:19 PDT 
From: "Salmon,David" <David_Salmon@mc.xerox.com> 
Subject: Multipower cost - who's right ??? 
Posting-date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:31:40 -0500 
Priority: normal 
Hop-count: 3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 116 
 
Okay guys, 
 
I started this thread about correctly calculating the cost of a  
 multipower slot and so far I have gotten "definitive" answers for two  
 different ways to calculate the costs involved. Who is right??? The  
 example in the book gives the result numbers but not the way they were  
 calculated. 
 
Example based on 100 active point multipower with one -1/4 limitation 
 
So far everyone seems to agree on the base cost for the multipower, i.e.: 
	Multipower base cost = 100 active with -1/4 lim = 80 real points  
 
The slot costs are disputed however ..... 
Case 1: 
ultra slot with -1/2 limitation = active points in slot / 10   ie. 100  
 / 10 = 10, then apply limitations of -1/4 & -1/2, therefore, cost of  
 slot = 5.7 or 6 real points 
 
Case 2: 
ultra slot with -1/2 limitation = real cost of base multipower / 10    
 i.e.  80 / 10 = 8, then apply limitation of -1/2 , therefore cost of  
 slot = 5.3 or 5 real points 
 
Okay who is correct???? If I have 5 slots in my multipower, it is  
 either going to cost me 5 more points or save me five points depending  
 on how you do it. Anyone from Hero Games out there care to take a stab  
 at it ????? 
 
 
Just wantin' to know 
 
...Dave S. 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 18:28:35 +0000 
Subject: Re: Modern Body Armor 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 2 
 
> no matter how many forms of attacks you choose, "half effectiveness" 
> should never be worth a -1 or more limitation. 
>  
> It should be easy to figure out why... 
 
DOH!  (High five my forehead.) 
 
Uh, guys, it seems I need to recalculate a few things.... 
 
That's what I get for doing work on these things late at night. I  
found a number of mistakes, but I was certain there was one left. 
 
At least I know what it was. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 18:28:35 +0000 
Subject: Re: Multipower cost - who's right ??? 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 1 
 
> Okay guys, 
>  
> I started this thread about correctly calculating the cost of a  
>  multipower slot and so far I have gotten "definitive" answers for 
>  two different ways to calculate the costs involved. Who is right??? 
>  The example in the book gives the result numbers but not the way 
>  they were calculated. 
 
Do the two systems_ always_ give _exactly_ the same answer? If so,  
then " a difference which makes no difference is no difference." 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@csci.csc.com> 
Subject: compilation of examples from published material 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:34:43 CDT 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 119 
 
A while back, I was discussing "cleanup" issues within the published 
4th edition materials with various folks at a convention...  In that 
discussion, we brought up the ambiguity of the "limited power"  
limitation, several disads, etc... 
 
I proposed that several lists be compiled from all the published HERO 
materials (supplements, Adventurer's Clubs, etc), and posted on the web, 
to be accessible to as many people as possible. 
 
Lists to include: 
 
Published Power Advantages List 
Published Power Limitations List 
Published Disadvantages List 
 
(feel free to suggest more) 
 
 
Now, I've got a website, and am willing to start this (I'll be using 
Microsoft Access, which allows for multiple tables, and has a web 
publishing ability) if I can get a few people to help me out to cover 
what I don't own, and a good bibliography of all published 4th ed. 
materials (yes, including the other genre supplements). 
 
Anyone who's interested in this project, please contact me! 
 
DonM. 
 
-- 
============================================================================ 
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist,           (217) 351-8250 x2365 =  
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL       dmckinne@csci.csc.com = 
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998    = 
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org       (217) 469-9917 =  
============================================================================ 
 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:41:03 -0400 
X-Sender: absga@elbertonga.com 
From: Patrick Barden <absga@elbertonga.com> 
Subject: Re: List archives 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 118 
 
At 11:00 PM 7/10/97 -0700, Lizard wrote: 
>Is there an archive (or a FAQ) for this list? I'd like to avoid hauling 
>forth zombie horses to be beaten. 
> 
I can't remember the exact URL but you can find one listed under Champions 
in Yahoo! as well as a few other worthwhile sites. 
 
Patrick B 
 
 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:41:21 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Decompressing damage... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 117 
 
On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
> >> On a slightly related and somewhat bizarre note, has anyone else noticed 
> >> that Generalissimo Francisco Franco (20th c spanish dictator) looked 
> >> almost exactly like Walt Disney? 
> > 
> >That may be, but he's still dead. 
>  
> <smacka-smacka-smacka-smacka> 
 
"Thank you sir may I have another!" 
 
> I guess somebody had to say it...<groan> 
 
Well, yeah. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 15:28:33 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: Beta Webzine 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:21 PM 7/14/97 -0400, john.desmarais@ibm.net wrote: 
>In <3.0.3.32.19970714111553.00853590@mailhost.cyberhighway.net&> 
>at 11:15 AM, Jim <champion@cyberhighway.net> said: 
> 
>>This is the Homepage for what I am presently calling the "Adventurer's 
>>Club Revisited" -- a webzine that will rehash some of the material from 
>>the old AC issues that are WAY out of print. 
> 
>While in general I applaud the idea, you probably shouldn't be posting 
>material that someone else holds the copyright on.  Even though the kids 
>at Hero Games have been reasonably supportive of people publishing via the 
>WWW material using thier rules and background, its really not kosher to 
>flaunt the copyright laws quite so blatantly.  I'd suggest getting their 
>permission (if they even hold the copyright - it may be ICE) first. 
 
Well, it does depend on exactly how much the material gets "hashed" the 
second time around.  Remember, copyrights apply to expression, not content; 
if he's typing in the articles word for word (or mostly so), yeah, he's 
gonna open a can of lawsuit, but if he's just slapping up the information in 
his own words he's okay. 
 
Actually, though, the very title "Adventurer's Club Revisited" may be 
trouble if anyone still holds a *trademark* on it.  Of course, to hold the 
trademark, they actually have to USE it on something (the law doesn't let 
you "reserve" marks you're not using). 
 
>However, if you are looking to create a medium for the publishing of 
>original material, I'm sure the folks on this list would be willing to 
>provide you with a plethora of unique stuff. 
 
Most hearty agreement. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 15:28:35 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: GenCon?? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:54 AM 7/15/97 -0500, Todd Hanson wrote: 
>Is anybody from the list going to be going to GenCon? 
> 
>Anybody going to be running any games while they're there? 
> 
>Looks like I'm going to be going if anyone wants to try and meet up or 
>anything... 
 
I'm going, though this is the first year I *won't* be running anything 
(officially).  If you see some dork running around with either a "Optos, 
Horror from Space" or "Not the Target Market" button on his shirt, that 
would be me (or someone who knows me). 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:02:17 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: (insert)Info needed on US Currency. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:08 PM 7/14/97 -0400, BeerCarboy@aol.com wrote: 
>   >$500: William McKinley 
>   >$1000: Grover Cleveland 
>   >$5000: James Madison 
>   >$10,000: Salmon P. Chase 
> 
>And last (but anything but least) on the $100,000 gold certificate, which was 
>printed only for official government use, we find a portrait of Woodrow 
>Wilson. 
 
   I do remember about that one -- but wasn't there also a $50,000 bill 
somewhere along the way, back inthe 60s?  Does anyone here know? 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:02:18 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: (insert)Info needed on US Currency. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:26 AM 7/15/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote: 
> 
>Heh, that's two mistakes I made.  I also mispelled my name at the 
>end of the message!  Hot... day..., thinking... hard... <drool>. 
> 
>-Eric (not "Erio") 
 
   Easy, guy.  It's getting so hot, you're starting to talk like the Tick.   ;-] 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:02:19 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Desolidification attacks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:59 PM 7/14/97 -0400, Geoffrey Speare wrote: 
>>>> Most have said that the guns need to be bought Affects Solid. But what 
>>>> if this were an uncommon occurrance? If the desolid chraracter had 
>>>> Affects Solid on her STR, and can normally punch/poke/grab/tickle 
>>>> objects, but decides to pick up a gun and fire it? 
>>  
>>    This being an unusual circumstance, I'd allow it as you describe.  (If 
>> the Desolid character wants to *own* the gun, however, that's a different 
>> matter... well, you know what I mean.) 
> 
>Having had players who sought to abuse precisely this rules point, I would be 
>a little more paranoid about what counted as "unusual circumstance" (for 
>example, if disarming NPCs became a regular tactic; or my favorite, if the 
>character wanted to start carrying knives). A lot of it depends on the player 
>in question, too... 
 
   That's certainly an important point.  In particular, if the character 
wants to start carrying knives, then the character should pay for those 
knives, with the Affects Solid Advantage. 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:02:20 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Multipower cost - who's right ??? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:25 AM 7/15/97 PDT, Salmon,David wrote: 
>Example based on 100 active point multipower with one -1/4 limitation 
> 
>So far everyone seems to agree on the base cost for the multipower, i.e.: 
> Multipower base cost = 100 active with -1/4 lim = 80 real points  
> 
>The slot costs are disputed however ..... 
>Case 1: 
>ultra slot with -1/2 limitation = active points in slot / 10   ie. 100  
> / 10 = 10, then apply limitations of -1/4 & -1/2, therefore, cost of  
> slot = 5.7 or 6 real points 
> 
>Case 2: 
>ultra slot with -1/2 limitation = real cost of base multipower / 10    
> i.e.  80 / 10 = 8, then apply limitation of -1/2 , therefore cost of  
> slot = 5.3 or 5 real points 
> 
>Okay who is correct???? 
 
   Almost certainly, Case 1 is correct.  If nothing else, it's how it's done 
everywhere I can find in the published samples. 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:17:24 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Gweenies! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
   In case anyone cares:  a new scenario, "Invasion of the Gweenies," has 
been added to Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page. 
   Warning:  It's just what you'd expect from a Gweenie invasion. 
   The URL for Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page is: 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified) 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:29:12 -0500 
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us> 
Subject: Re: Multipower cost - who's right ??? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:25 AM 7/15/97 PDT, Salmon,David wrote: 
>Okay guys, 
>I started this thread about correctly calculating the cost of a  
> multipower slot and so far I have gotten "definitive" answers for two  
> different ways to calculate the costs involved. Who is right??? The  
> example in the book gives the result numbers but not the way they were  
> calculated. 
> 
>Example based on 100 active point multipower with one -1/4 limitation 
>So far everyone seems to agree on the base cost for the multipower, i.e.: 
>	Multipower base cost = 100 active with -1/4 lim = 80 real points  
> 
>The slot costs are disputed however ..... 
>Case 1: 
>ultra slot with -1/2 limitation = active points in slot / 10   ie. 100  
> / 10 = 10, then apply limitations of -1/4 & -1/2, therefore, cost of  
> slot = 5.7 or 6 real points 
> 
>Case 2: 
>ultra slot with -1/2 limitation = real cost of base multipower / 10    
> i.e.  80 / 10 = 8, then apply limitation of -1/2 , therefore cost of  
> slot = 5.3 or 5 real points 
> 
>Okay who is correct???? If I have 5 slots in my multipower, it is  
> either going to cost me 5 more points or save me five points depending  
> on how you do it. Anyone from Hero Games out there care to take a stab  
> at it ????? 
> 
 
  I personally believe case 1 to be correct.... a limitation that is 
applied to EVERY slot in a multipower can be applied to the control cost 
AND the slot costs, a limitation that applies only to a single slot is 
applied only to that slot cost. 
  In the case of your example, the "slot cost" is 10 pts with a -1/4 
limitation (say IIF), and a -1/2 limitation (say no range), for a total of 
a -3/4 limitation on the 10 points (final cost = 6). 
 
  Incidentally I also plugged this into HEROMAKER (tm), and it agrees with 
me... 
not that HEROMAKER is a definitive authority or anything, but the makers 
generally new what they were about.... 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Mental Flash 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 15 Jul 1997 17:40:23 -0400 
Lines: 35 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> writes: 
 
F> You can create a character whose mental powers are more effective at no 
F> range, but that is not an effect of standard mental powers. Thus, it 
F> would only apply to your character. 
 
"No Range" does not affect the targeting of a power, nor does it in any way 
affect how that power functions aside from placing a maximum range 
restriction upon it.  It does not affect how standard or mental powers 
"work" in any other fashion. 
 
There is no advantage for using a mental power with a non-targeting sense. 
Limitations are, on general principle, incapable of allowing a power to do 
something it cannot normally do.  Therefore I have to say that your 
interpretation is wrong, that non-targeting senses may be used to target 
mental attacks as the default case.  If you want something different for 
your campaign, fine, but realise that it appears to be a house rule. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"Filksinger\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 97 21:45:43  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Mental Flash 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:54:55 +0000, Filksinger wrote: 
 
>> On Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:02:12 -0700 (PDT), Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>  
>> >At 01:46 AM 7/12/97 GMT, Opal wrote: 
>> >>It's only an interpretation on my part, but since  Mental powers are  
>> >>L-O-S, I tend to think they only work with Targeting senses. 
>> > 
>> >   I tend to go with you on this, Opal.  Does anyone on the list have a 
>> >strong argument to the contrary? 
>>  
>> LOS is not the same as 'only work with Targeting senses' 
>>  
>> eg smelling someone upwind - round a canyon wall. 
> 
>Yes, but since Mental Powers work LOS, and the rules only state that  
>sight or Mind Scan can be used (nothing about other senses in 4th  
>Ed.), I would assume that means you can only hit someone you can see.  
>If anything, that argument is _against_ using other senses besides  
>sight and Mind Scan entirely, not an argument for using all senses. 
 
I agree - I'm just drawing the distinction.  
 
>I think that allowing targeting senses is the best answer, especially  
>since that used to be the official answer, and the only things that  
>reference it in the BBB state that sight is the sense, period. 
 
Except in cases like the one I've outlined, yes. Basically I'm saying 
that a GM should pay attention. 
 
 
qts 
 
From: "Larian" <vmsmith@execpc.com> 
Subject: Re: GenCon?? 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:36:40 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
> At 12:54 AM 7/15/97 -0500, Todd Hanson wrote: 
> >Is anybody from the list going to be going to GenCon? 
> > 
> >Anybody going to be running any games while they're there? 
> > 
> >Looks like I'm going to be going if anyone wants to try and meet up or 
> >anything... 
 
 
I live it Racine Wisconsin and will be there for at least one or two days, 
but not all four. would like to meet others from the group. 
 
write me back and we can arrange somthing. 
 
LATER:) 
 
From: Legionair@aol.com 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 19:13:12 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Desolid guns... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 97-07-15 13:39:52 EDT, jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron 
Prins) writes: 
 
<< HKA, Trigger: Turns Off If Used Vs. Good/Innocents (+1/4), with 
 Detect Good/Innocence, Sense, Linked to HKA (-1/2) [you need the detect for 
 the trigger]. >> 
 
Okay, but who decides who is good/innocent?  This kind of limitation would 
probably end up in more OOC arguments then it's worth... 
 
Jason 
 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:11:43 -0700 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
Reply-To: icepirat@ix.netcom.com 
Subject: Re: Desolid guns... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Legionair@aol.com wrote: 
>  
> In a message dated 97-07-15 13:39:52 EDT, jprins@interhop.net (John 
> and Ron 
> Prins) writes: 
>  
> << HKA, Trigger: Turns Off If Used Vs. Good/Innocents (+1/4), with 
>  Detect Good/Innocence, Sense, Linked to HKA (-1/2) [you need the 
> detect for 
>  the trigger]. >> 
>  
> Okay, but who decides who is good/innocent?  This kind of limitation 
> would 
> probably end up in more OOC arguments then it's worth... 
 
It's a roleplaying challenge.  It might depend on the character's 
beliefs. If it's an intelligent sword, on the sword's belief.  If it has 
a very limited definition of good/innocent then it might be a disad.  
Especially if the belief doesn't match the character's own. 
 
-Mark 
 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 20:47:59 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
Subject: Re: GenCon?? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 3 
 
DocTough@aol.com wrote: 
>  
> Doc sez... 
>  
>      I also plan to attend this year and would be interested in meeting up 
> with any others from the 'list.  I'll likely lurk around the GRG and Hero 
> games booths, but will also attempt to participate in whatever HSR/C4 games 
> available. 
>  
>      With this year's Con having the All night gaming room it might be fun to 
> meet for a game or even talk in person about the topics from this 'List. 
 
An all night gaming room? 
 
hmmm...  anybody interested in getting together a game or two with the 
other online geeks?  (heh, like us online geeks will stand out amongst 
all the gaming geeks at the convention) 
 
 
 
Todd - a geek in every sense of the word   ;) 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 02:49:47 +0000 
Subject: Re: NND Killing (was Desolid guns...) 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 10 
 
 
>  Can you give sources for the ones you're talking about so I can 
>  show 
> examples in print?  
 
In the examples I was thinking of, it was almost always poison. If  
you know of other examples, then (since it was never an official  
rule), I'd say go with it. 
 
BTW, killing attack NNDs can usually be simulated with a BODY drain,  
with appropriate extended time and appropriate limits. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:58:35 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Desolid guns... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 6 
 
><< HKA, Trigger: Turns Off If Used Vs. Good/Innocents (+1/4), with 
> Detect Good/Innocence, Sense, Linked to HKA (-1/2) [you need the detect for 
> the trigger]. >> 
> 
>Okay, but who decides who is good/innocent?  This kind of limitation would 
>probably end up in more OOC arguments then it's worth... 
 
The game master, of course. It all depends, I guess. Somebody like the 
Harbinger of Bullets would probably be lying there after a hit, spurting 
blood everywhere. While someone like Lady Blue would be going "Huh? Not a 
scratch?" 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
From: DocTough@aol.com 
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:20:13 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Multipower cost - who's right ??? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 7 
 
Doc sez... 
 
     Costs are based on the ACTIVE POINTS of the powers, not the REAL. 
 
     If a MP has a Global Lim worth -1/4L and has 100 Pts available the 
initial cost is 80 CPs.   Every slot in the MP is affected by the -1/4L and 
as such is allowed the point reduction for the Lim. 
     The Ultra Slot with the additional -1/2L that can use the entire 100 
pool points would cost 10 (100/10) divided by 1.75L or about 6 CPs. 
 
     In other words, the application of the Lims occurs AFTER the reduction 
for the type of slot (Multi or Ultra).  However, the application of 
Advantages occurs BEFORE the slot reduction as they are used to calculate the 
Active point cost of the slot. 
 
     Hope this clears things up. 
 
Doc Tough  
 
From: Firelynx16@aol.com 
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 01:17:30 -0400 (EDT) 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: NND Killing (was Desolid guns...) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 8 
 
In a message dated 97-07-15 08:13:01 EDT, you write: 
 
<< They are stated as being +2, in all official sources in which they  
 exist. However, if the defense was common enough, they could be  
 bought down to effectively +1, like this: 
  >> 
 
What about European Enemies, where there are 3 or 4 characters with NND 
Killing attacks, all bought as +1?  I'm not trying to be difficult here, it's 
just that it's come up in a game I run.  I tried to find examples in print, 
and every +2 was for an NND that didn't have enough defenses, or common 
enough defenses.  When they had the regular defenses, like EE, it was +1. 
 Can you give sources for the ones you're talking about so I can show 
examples in print?  
 
Thanx, 
'Lynx 
 
From: Legionair@aol.com 
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 06:36:42 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Desolid guns... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 11 
 
In a message dated 97-07-15 23:10:52 EDT, icepirat@ix.netcom.com (Mark 
Lemming) writes: 
 
<< It's a roleplaying challenge.  It might depend on the character's 
 beliefs. If it's an intelligent sword, on the sword's belief.  If it has 
 a very limited definition of good/innocent then it might be a disad.  
 Especially if the belief doesn't match the character's own. >> 
 
This type of limitation is just way to conditional for my taste.  If the 
player gets to decide, then the limitation is worth nothing.  If the GM 
decides, then what criteria would he use?  Codes vs. Killing?  Psychological 
disadvantages? 
 
You'll certainly run into the usual questions...  J.J.J. might think 
Spiderman is a "bad guy" so does the sword work on Spidey if J is swinging 
it?  On the other hand, Batman was viewed as a bad guy on and off for years, 
so does the sword work on him? 
 
Jason 
 
X-Sender: travisf@mail.cei.net 
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 07:35:37 -0500 
From: Travis Foster <travisf@mail.cei.net> 
Subject: Re: Desolid guns... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 12 
 
At 06:36 16/07/1997 -0400, you wrote: 
>In a message dated 97-07-15 23:10:52 EDT, icepirat@ix.netcom.com (Mark 
>This type of limitation is just way to conditional for my taste.  If the 
>player gets to decide, then the limitation is worth nothing.  If the GM 
>decides, then what criteria would he use?  Codes vs. Killing?  Psychological 
>disadvantages? 
 
        An evil priest in a FH game I was in had a similar power: he could 
give anyone whos is not pure of heart a heart attack/seizure. The game 
mechanics of the pure of heart was that anyone with a total psychlim was 
unaffected by the power, antony with a strong psychlim was usually only half 
affected, and anyone with no/casual psychlim was toast. 
 
>Jason 
 
Travis 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: GenCon?? (fwd) 
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:50:11 -0400 (EDT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 14 
 
>  
> Todd - a geek in every sense of the word   ;) 
>  
 
You bite the heads off of chickens??? 
 
-Eric 
 
(sorry, I couldn't resist...) 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: Desolid guns...  
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:53:56 -0400 (EDT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 13 
 
> << It's a roleplaying challenge.  It might depend on the character's 
>  beliefs. If it's an intelligent sword, on the sword's belief.  If it has 
>  a very limited definition of good/innocent then it might be a disad.  
>  Especially if the belief doesn't match the character's own. >> 
>  
> This type of limitation is just way to conditional for my taste.  If the 
> player gets to decide, then the limitation is worth nothing.  If the GM 
> decides, then what criteria would he use?  Codes vs. Killing?  Psychological 
> disadvantages? 
>  
 
Well let's just, for the sword's purposes, define "good guy" as CvK >= 5. 
It would be concetely defined in game terms when the player buys the 
power. 
 
>  
> Jason 
>  
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:41:37 -0700 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: Desolid guns... 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 24 
 
At 06:36 AM 7/16/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>In a message dated 97-07-15 23:10:52 EDT, icepirat@ix.netcom.com (Mark 
>Lemming) writes: 
> 
><< It's a roleplaying challenge.  It might depend on the character's 
> beliefs. If it's an intelligent sword, on the sword's belief.  If it has 
> a very limited definition of good/innocent then it might be a disad.  
> Especially if the belief doesn't match the character's own. >> 
> 
>This type of limitation is just way to conditional for my taste.  If the 
>player gets to decide, then the limitation is worth nothing.  If the GM 
>decides, then what criteria would he use?  Codes vs. Killing?  Psychological 
>disadvantages? 
> 
>You'll certainly run into the usual questions...  J.J.J. might think 
>Spiderman is a "bad guy" so does the sword work on Spidey if J is swinging 
>it?  On the other hand, Batman was viewed as a bad guy on and off for years, 
>so does the sword work on him? 
> 
We could just make sure everyone defines their characters as Lawful Good, 
Chaotic Neutral, etc.... 
 
(G,D,&R!) 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 18:42:36 +0000 
Subject: Re: Desolid guns...  
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 36 
 
 
>  
> Well let's just, for the sword's purposes, define "good guy" as CvK 
> >= 5. It would be concetely defined in game terms when the player 
> buys the power. 
>  
 
In my superhero campaigns, I usually follow the suggestion from  
Champions that there is a built-in "reluctance to kill" disadvantage,  
which you get free. 
 
Thus, many of my heroes, some who have never killed, don't like to  
kill, avoid killing, but would use a gun in a gun fight if they had  
no other options, would be killed by your sword. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:50:52 -0700 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
Reply-To: icepirat@ix.netcom.com 
Subject: Re: NND Killing (was Desolid guns...) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 26 
 
Firelynx16@aol.com wrote: 
>  
> In a message dated 97-07-15 08:13:01 EDT, you write: 
>  
> << They are stated as being +2, in all official sources in which they 
>  exist. However, if the defense was common enough, they could be 
>  bought down to effectively +1, like this: 
>   >> 
>  
> What about European Enemies, where there are 3 or 4 characters with 
> NND 
> Killing attacks, all bought as +1?  I'm not trying to be difficult 
> here, it's 
> just that it's come up in a game I run.  I tried to find examples in 
> print, 
> and every +2 was for an NND that didn't have enough defenses, or 
> common 
> enough defenses.  When they had the regular defenses, like EE, it was 
> +1. 
>  Can you give sources for the ones you're talking about so I can show 
> examples in print? 
 
European Enemies was very badly done in terms of editing.  Nothing in it 
should be taken at face value.  They let a +1 stun mod apply on a normal 
attack after all.  I believe the official word is that there is an 
additional +1 advantage to do body for those attacks that normally do 
not.  This is also for Ego attacks as well as NNDs.  I thought this was 
in the BBB.  Page numbers anyone? 
 
-Mark 
 
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:33:53 -0400 (EDT) 
From: "Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com&> 
        Women in Gaming Mailing List" <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: MAGE! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 30 
 
Ladies and Gentlemen I feel I most post about one of the most important 
comic events to come down the pike in a *long* time. 
 
Specifically the return of Matt Wagner's fantastic Authurian epic "Mage" 
to the shelves. 
 
Mage II (or more specifically Mage: The Hero Defined) looks to occur 
several years after the events in the first series.  Kevin is older, with 
a receding hairline, but he still wears his trademark shirtand has his 
beard back.   
 
Mirth (aka Myrddin Auerelius Ambrosius ana Merlin) is gone, replaced by a 
young black man by the name of Joe.  Joe is an unusual character, he wears 
glasses and dreadlocks, and seems to be able to literaly snif out evil. 
He also seems to be able to run *very* fast. 
 
Kevin talks about other people fighting evil like he does, it seems that 
in Mage II Kevin isn't the only hero...   
 
The nature of the mythos is still in doubt.  We see a classic 
English/Scandinavian troll (he hides under a bridge), but we also run into 
harpies.  And what do we make of the man seen at the end of issue 1, the 
one with a cat's head tattoo and a cat's head logo on the back of his 
jacket? 
 
Personally I can't wait for issue 2. 
 
BTW: Mage t-shirts are avalaible once again!  Black with a white 
lightining bolt down the center.  Since the last of my three in that 
design died *years* ago, I can't place my order fast enough. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:49:43 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Women in Gaming Mailing List <wig@list.pitt.edu> 
Subject: Game Review: Legend ofthe Five Rings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 28 
 
I just picked up the RPG "Legend of the Five Rings" based on the CCG of 
the same name.  Now, I never played the CCG so I can't comment on that 
acspect, so I'll stick with the RPG itself. 
 
1) It's a pretty slick product - hardbound book, 250 pages, color plates, 
color map, *nice* artwork, floorplans the works.  My only complaint isthe 
few pasteup errors which are amazingly glaring.  One whole page is 
duplicated in two places (wiping out the suggested reading list in doing 
so), while several side bars are repeated as well (or not on listed page 
numbers).  OTOH - the spelling errors seem to be virtually nil.  Of 
course, one pays for such niceness, the book's $30.00 may be a bit steep 
for many. 
 
2) Nice universe - the writer does a pretty cool (actually a great) job of 
presenting a mythical Japanese inspired universe.  There are nice sections 
detailing the origin of the game universe, the nature of gods and spirits, 
magic, social standing, psychology of the natives and so on.  I found a 
lot of it to be close enough to actual Japanese mentalities to adapt what 
I read to 1542 Sengoku game I'm in.  Anyone considering playing in/ 
running any sort of Oriental mythos based game should try and pick this 
book up, it will be a big help. 
 
3) Nice source material - although they don't go into a great amount of 
detail about certain items (like armor or martial arts), ther is more than 
enough information on society, the make up of towns, house and castle 
plans, arms, magic and what not for almost anyone to be able to set up a 
similarly themed game using any sort of game mechanics. 
 
4) Interesting magic system - L5R uses a magic system based on four 
elements (water, fire, earth, air).  This is contrary to the actual 
Oriental listing of the elements (earth, metal, water, wood, fire), but 
works well enough for the game (I guess).  There is some nice stuff about 
how sorcerers all have to use scrolls to cast spells and such. 
Translating the magic system (and even the spells) into a Hero system  
format looks to be pretty easy. 
 
5) Cool monsters and magic items - the sourcebook (which I hope gets an 
expansion soon)_ has an interesting collection of enchanted weapons and 
oriental creatures.  Possibly the best poart is the seection on Japanese 
ghosts (aka yurei) which are bizzare enough to give probably any jaded 
Fantasy Hero fan pause. 
 
To sum up, I'd have to recommend this book.  If you're interested in the 
setting, and want something different for your next Fantasy Hero campaign, 
try and spend the 30 bucks on Legend of the Five Rings, it's worth the 
price. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:57:08 -0700 
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell) 
Subject: Re: NND Killing (was Desolid guns...) 
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 29 
 
 
-> From icepirat@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 16 13:51:19 1997 
->  
-> I believe the official word is that there is an 
-> additional +1 advantage to do body for those attacks that normally do 
-> not.  This is also for Ego attacks as well as NNDs.  I thought this was 
-> in the BBB.  Page numbers anyone? 
 
The 'Gadgets' book listed 'Does Body' as a +1 advantage for NND and AVLDs. 
(I can't remember if they mention Ego and Flash attacks). 
 
						-Sam 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:24:57 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: NND Killing (was Desolid guns...) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 33 
 
At 02:40 PM 7/16/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> The Ultimate Mentalist holds with this assessment, giving a +1 Advantage 
> for Ego Attacks and BOECV attacks that do BODY damage.  (And I tend to 
> agree with it as well.) 
 
While I agree with the extra +1 Advantage "Does BODY", I have to say that if 
such a thing weren't found elsewhere, finding it in the Ultimate Mentalist 
would be an argument AGAINST it. :/ 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:40:42 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: NND Killing (was Desolid guns...) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Status:  
X-UID: 31 
 
At 01:57 PM 7/16/97 -0700, Sam Bell wrote: 
> 
>-> From icepirat@ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 16 13:51:19 1997 
>->  
>-> I believe the official word is that there is an 
>-> additional +1 advantage to do body for those attacks that normally do 
>-> not.  This is also for Ego attacks as well as NNDs.  I thought this was 
>-> in the BBB.  Page numbers anyone? 
> 
>The 'Gadgets' book listed 'Does Body' as a +1 advantage for NND and AVLDs. 
>(I can't remember if they mention Ego and Flash attacks). 
 
   The Ultimate Mentalist holds with this assessment, giving a +1 Advantage 
for Ego Attacks and BOECV attacks that do BODY damage.  (And I tend to agree 
with it as well.) 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:05:49 -0700 
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger) 
Subject: Re: MAGE! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 32 
 
      
I'm really getting scared about the coming Millennium. 
 
With the sale of TSR to WotC, and now the appearance of Mage II, I'm left  
wondering what the other Five Signs of the Apocalypse are! 
 
Richard 
 
PS: It really is a great comic...and if you can pick up the original series,  
grab it. The whole thing was re-issued in TPB format, which you might be able to 
still find at your local comic store (if you ask nicely). 
 
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ 
Subject: MAGE! 
Author:  susano@access.digex.net at DTVCCGATE 
Date:    7/16/97 4:33 PM 
 
 
Ladies and Gentlemen I feel I most post about one of the most important  
comic events to come down the pike in a *long* time. 
      
Specifically the return of Matt Wagner's fantastic Authurian epic "Mage"  
to the shelves. 
      
Mage II (or more specifically Mage: The Hero Defined) looks to occur  
several years after the events in the first series.  Kevin is older, with  
a receding hairline, but he still wears his trademark shirtand has his  
beard back.   
      
Mirth (aka Myrddin Auerelius Ambrosius ana Merlin) is gone, replaced by a  
young black man by the name of Joe.  Joe is an unusual character, he wears  
glasses and dreadlocks, and seems to be able to literally sniff out evil. 
He also seems to be able to run *very* fast. 
      
Kevin talks about other people fighting evil like he does, it seems that  
in Mage II Kevin isn't the only hero...   
      
The nature of the mythos is still in doubt.  We see a classic  
English/Scandinavian troll (he hides under a bridge), but we also run into  
harpies.  And what do we make of the man seen at the end of issue 1, the  
one with a cat's head tattoo and a cat's head logo on the back of his  
jacket? 
      
Personally I can't wait for issue 2. 
      
BTW: Mage T-shirts are available once again!  Black with a white  
lightning bolt down the center.  Since the last of my three in that  
design died *years* ago, I can't place my order fast enough. 
      
***************************************************************************  
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            *  
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *  
*************************************************************************** 
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Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:33:53 -0400 (EDT) 
From: "Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
        Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com&> 
        Women in Gaming Mailing List" <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: MAGE! 
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970716162331.21253A-100000@access4.digex.net> 
MIME-Version: 1.0 
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Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:05:41 -0700 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: New limit:resisted normally? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 34 
 
How much would the limitation 'Resisted by Normal Defenses' be worth? This 
would apply to power which normally require power defense, mental defense, 
flash defense, etc. I'm tihnking -1/2 to -1. 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:19:49 -0400 (EDT) 
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X-Status:  
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> I'm really getting scared about the coming Millennium. 
>  
> With the sale of TSR to WotC, and now the appearance of Mage II, I'm left  
> wondering what the other Five Signs of the Apocalypse are! 
>  
> Richard 
>  
 
Seven signs of the Apocalypse (not the Marvel character) 
----------------------------- 
 
>1. TSR gets sold to WotC 
 
>2. The appearance of Mage II 
 
3. White Wolf produces an RPG that is cheerful and optimistic. 
 
 
Does anyone know what the others are? 
 
-Eric 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:54:38 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 08:19 PM 7/16/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote: 
>Seven signs of the Apocalypse (not the Marvel character) 
>----------------------------- 
>>1. TSR gets sold to WotC 
> 
>>2. The appearance of Mage II 
> 
>3. White Wolf produces an RPG that is cheerful and optimistic. 
> 
> 
>Does anyone know what the others are? 
 
Hero Games publishes a 5th Edition? 
A supplement for SenZar that's enjoyable to read? 
Vox and Rat actually agree in a rules argument? 
A *successful* science fiction game from TSR? 
L. Ron Hubbard stops publishing posthumous books? 
A game is published that lives up to its own back-cover blurb? 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:40:54 -0700 
From: rambler@sowest.net (Eric Chaves) 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 38 
 
>> I'm really getting scared about the coming Millennium. 
>> 
>> With the sale of TSR to WotC, and now the appearance of Mage II, I'm left 
>> wondering what the other Five Signs of the Apocalypse are! 
>> 
>> Richard 
>> 
> 
>Seven signs of the Apocalypse (not the Marvel character) 
>----------------------------- 
> 
>>1. TSR gets sold to WotC 
> 
>>2. The appearance of Mage II 
> 
>3. White Wolf produces an RPG that is cheerful and optimistic. 
> 
> 
>Does anyone know what the others are? 
> 
>-Eric 
 
4. NT 97 works flawlessly, Bill Gates makes even more of a shit load of 
money, becomes president, and nukes Cupritino. 
 
 
 
Geek Code 
**************************************************************************** 
GCS d++ H s:+ !g !p au+ a- w++ v++ C++++ UL+ P? L+ 3- E? N+++ K- W--- M++ !V 
po--- Y+ t++ 5 j R++ G'' tv++ b++ D++ B--- e- u** h+ f+ r n+ y** 
**************************************************************************** 
 
 
X-Sender: naneiden@iswest.com 
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:57:18 -0700 
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com> 
Subject: Mage: The Hero Defined 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 39 
 
Mage II has Kevin Matchstick, obviously. I learned a few extra things about 
this second season by reading the comic book catalog Previews. 
 
His first companion, Joe Phat, is refered to as "Cyote" in Previews, and 
while he can 'sniff' evil, he's not the second mage. 
 
His other companion, the one who appears with the cat head on his jacket on 
the last page of issue 1 is refered to as "Kirby Hero" in Previews. 
 
-Nic 
 
X-Sender: mgill@mychoice.net 
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:00:10 +0000 
From: Michael Gillespie <mgill@mychoice.net> 
Subject: Re: New limit:resisted normally? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 47 
 
At 05:05 PM 7/16/97 -0700, Lizard wrote: 
>How much would the limitation 'Resisted by Normal Defenses' be worth? This 
>would apply to power which normally require power defense, mental defense, 
>flash defense, etc. I'm tihnking -1/2 to -1. 
> 
 
If this helps, here's my house rules for the ALD Advantage: 
 
Against Limited Defense: makes an attack go against some defense other than 
its usual defense.  To find the value for this modifier, use the chart below. 
First find the attack's usual  defense, and then compare it with the new 
defense.  For every 1 down the chart you move, it is a +1/2 Advantage, and 
for every 1 up the chart it is a -1/4 Limitation. 
 
 - Normal PD/ED + Power Defense + Lack of Weakness * 
 - Normal PD/ED * 
 - Resistant PD/ED *, Mental Defense + Resistance, or natural defense (no 
foci,FF,etc.). 
 - Focused DEF, Mental Defense 
 - Flash Defense[sight], Power Defense, Force Field 
 - Amount by which a Primary Stat is over 15 
 - Flash Defense[hear], Hardened normal PD or ED 
 - Lack of Weakness, Hardened resistant PD or ED 
 - Flash Defense[other], Resistance 
 - Hardened Mental Defense, Flash Defense, Power Defense, Force Field 
 
 Example: An Energy Blast(Normal PD/ED) that goes against Power Defense is 
a +1.5 Adv. (3 down the chart).  A sight-based Flash that goes against 
resistant PD gets a -1/2 Limit. 
 If there is no change on the chart, for example a sight-based Flash that 
goes against Power Defense, it is a +1/4 Advantage. 
 ALD attacks do not normally do BODY.  However, if the final defense is 
marked with an asterisk(*) above, then the attack does do BODY, assuming it 
normally does. 
 
 
Therefore, IMC, Flash and Power attacks working against normal defenses is 
a -3/4 Limit, and for Mental Powers it's a -1/2 Limit.  Oh, and IMC, 
everyone gets Mental Defense of EGO/5, which is why it's higher on the 
chart than Power Defense and Flash Defense. 
 
Hope this helps.  Comments from anyone on the list are welcome (I know 
house rules aren't discussed much, but you never know) 
 
 
X-Sender: mgill@mychoice.net 
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:07:02 +0000 
From: Michael Gillespie <mgill@mychoice.net> 
Subject: Re: NND Killing (was Desolid guns...) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 46 
 
At 12:50 PM 7/16/97 -0700, Mark Lemming wrote: 
>European Enemies was very badly done in terms of editing.  Nothing in it 
>should be taken at face value.  They let a +1 stun mod apply on a normal 
>attack after all. 
 
That bugged me too, until I decided that you could put a extra Stun 
Multiple on normal attacks.  +1 Stun Multiple on a Killing Attack increases 
the total Stun damage by an amount equal to the BODY rolled... there's no 
reason you couldn't do that with a normal attack as well.  For example, a 
6D6 EB with a +1 SM rolls 22 Stun and 7 BOD.  The +1 SM makes the total 
STUN equal 22+7=29 STUN. 
 
True, there isn't much point to it.  It would probably be easier just to 
define some of the D6 as Stun Only.  But it's nice when an advantage can 
apply to as many powers as possible. 
 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:18:34 +0000 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> A game is published that lives up to its own back-cover blurb? 
 
Paranoia did.<G> 
 
> Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
 
Filksinger, High Lord over those who sing badly late at night at  
science fiction conventions. 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 97 07:47:07 -0400 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: "David A. Fair" <DFair@sdslink.com> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 40 
 
Started by others... 
 
>Seven signs of the Apocalypse (not the Marvel character) 
>----------------------------- 
> 
>>1. TSR gets sold to WotC 
> 
>>2. The appearance of Mage II 
> 
>3. White Wolf produces an RPG that is cheerful and optimistic. 
 
4. A major rpg producer, with a loyal following, abandons them when they  
completely rewrite their game system, saying "The setting sells...". 
 
 
 
 
  .oooO        | 
  (   ) Oooo.  | David A. Fair 
   \ (  (   )  | SDS International 
    \_)  ) /   | dfair@sdslink.com 
        (_/    | 
 
X-Sender: naneiden@iswest.com 
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:42:29 -0700 
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com> 
Subject: Re: Legend of the Five Rings RPG 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 43 
 
A few words on the L5R RPG; 
 
Legend of the Five Rings is based up the ideas behind The Book of Five 
Rings by Miyamoto Musashi. The path of enlightenment via the blade created 
by the famous ronin samurai. 
 
The Five Rings include The Ring of Earth, The Ring of Water, The Ring of 
Fire, the Ring of Air and the Ring of Void (Emptiness) thus, the magic of 
L5R RPG is based on Earth, Air, Fire and Water rather than the traditional 
Chinese elements. 
 
-Nic 
 
 
               +------------------------------------------------------+ 
               |                  naneiden@iswest.com                 | 
               |        Justice, Like Lightning, Thunderbolts!        | 
               | http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/thunder.html  | 
               |                   Costumed Heroines                  | 
               |         http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/      | 
               +------------------------------------------------------+ 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: NND Killing (was Desolid guns...) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 17 Jul 1997 12:16:34 -0400 
Lines: 28 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 48 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BB" == Bryan Berggren <ludator@softfarm.com> writes: 
 
BB> While I agree with the extra +1 Advantage "Does BODY", I have to say 
BB> that if such a thing weren't found elsewhere, finding it in the 
BB> Ultimate Mentalist would be an argument AGAINST it. :/ 
 
Agreed... except that it exists in other places... sort of.  "Gadgets!" 
has, IIRC, a +1 that Does Body for AVLD, not NND.  Fantasy Hero and one 
particular AC has a +1 for NNDs that do Body damage.  However, none of 
these are core rulesets; they are not something to be used in every game. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3 
Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:59:40 -0400 (EDT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> 4. A major rpg producer, with a loyal following, abandons them when they  
> completely rewrite their game system, saying "The setting sells...". 
>  
 
I think that's a bit unfair, Hero is still making Hero4 BBB's and 
supliments after all.  And until Fuzion gets a _much_ better power 
system (advantages & disadvantages) it will never catch on the way Hero4 
has, thereby gauranteeing that hero4 sticks around (knock on wood). 
 
Actually, I think Fuzion might increase hero4's popularity (I bought 
hero4 after I read the free fuzion pdf document, and since I liked the 
hero4 rules much better, I've never even bothered to buy Fuzion). 
 
-Eric 
 
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:21:57 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Fugazi <pzuris@freenet.com> 
Reply-To: pzuris@freenet.com 
Organization: The Biz 
Subject:  Re[2]: Looooooooong Arm of the Law & Speedster Tricks 
X-Encoding: MIME 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> 
>------------ 
>Date:     07/11/1997 14:09 
>From:     BeerCarboy <BeerCarboy@aol.com> 
>To:       Fugazi <pzuris@freenet.com> 
>Subject:  Re: Looooooooong Arm of the Law & Speedster Tricks 
> 
>>In the Golden Age comics it was quite common to see Flash or Johnny Quick  
>>vibrate through walls. Would this be a good use of indirect on running for a 
> 
>>speedster??? 
> 
> 
>NIMCs, it is desolid with the special effect of vibrating one's molecules so 
>fast that the solid parts pass through the vast empty parts of the molecules 
>of other substances around you.  Probably effected by any attack based on 
>vibration as a special effect . . . 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>Carter Humphrey 
> 
        It gets a little trickier (and of course a little costlier) when you bring  
that special effect into the current Flash comic.  Anything Wally vibrates through  
explodes.  He isn't hurt by the damage, of course, since he's desolid.  But try going  
desolid to get through a mob of people around a crime scene and you got carnage! 
        This special effect only becomes remotely affordable (figuring the +2  
advantage "affects solids" and the +1/2 advantage "explosion") if you use h-t-h  
attack, at a normal cost of 3 points per die of damage.  Of course, with the above  
advantages its pumped up to 10 1/2 points per die, and a blast of any size will add up  
quickly.  Which is okay because in the comic the blast is usually pretty localized. 
 
                                                        -Zephyr 
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@csci.csc.com> 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:56:47 CDT 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> > 4. A major rpg producer, with a loyal following, abandons them when they  
> > completely rewrite their game system, saying "The setting sells...". 
 
Besides, this already happened - GDW largely dumped its existing following 
for Traveller in 1991 when they released Traveller: The Next Era, which 
had a computer virus destroy the previous game setting... 
 
PS - it didn't sell; T4 (Traveller as re-released in 1996 after GDW's  
demise) turned BACK the clock 1200 years in their setting rather than 
deal with the TNE changes. 
 
 
DonM. 
 
-- 
============================================================================ 
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist,           (217) 351-8250 x2365 =  
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL       dmckinne@csci.csc.com = 
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998    = 
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org       (217) 469-9917 =  
============================================================================ 
 
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:07:43 -0700 
From: mtelford@vancouver.net (Michael Telford) 
Reply-To: mtelford@vancouver.net 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
David A. Fair wrote: 
>  
> Started by others... 
>  
> >Seven signs of the Apocalypse (not the Marvel character) 
> >----------------------------- 
> > 
> >>1. TSR gets sold to WotC 
> > 
> >>2. The appearance of Mage II 
> > 
> >3. White Wolf produces an RPG that is cheerful and optimistic. 
 
	What might that be? 
 
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:18:32 -0700 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
Reply-To: icepirat@ix.netcom.com 
Subject: Re: Mage: The Hero Defined 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>  
> On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Nic Neidenbach wrote: 
>  
> > Mage II has Kevin Matchstick, obviously. I learned a few extra 
> things about 
> > this second season by reading the comic book catalog Previews. 
> > 
> > His first companion, Joe Phat, is refered to as "Cyote" in Previews, 
> and 
> > while he can 'sniff' evil, he's not the second mage. 
>  
> Hmmm... interesting.  Kevin talk about meeting someone who fought 
> monsters.  And the letter page makes it sound like that there are 
> numerous 
> people wth unusual powers out there. 
>  
> > His other companion, the one who appears with the cat head on his 
> jacket on 
> > the last page of issue 1 is refered to as "Kirby Hero" in Previews. 
>  
> 'Kirby Hero'? 
 
Now that would be the supplement to buy!  Much better than the current 
Image Hero... 
 
-Mark "Currently being part of a sleep deprivation experiment by PG&E" 
Lemming 
 
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:43:47 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Filksinger wrote: 
 
>  
> > A game is published that lives up to its own back-cover blurb? 
>  
> Paranoia did.<G> 
 
I'll second that. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." <richberg@erols.com> 
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:59:20 -0400 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Newsgroups: october.hero 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
Path: october.com!not-for-mail 
Organization: Prometheus Corp. 
Lines: 38 
X-Sender: richberg@nrf-as4s38.erols.com 
Nntp-Posting-Host: nrf-as4s38.erols.com 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
herolist wrote: 
>  
> From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
> Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
> To: champ-l@omg.org 
>  
> At 08:19 PM 7/16/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote: 
> >Seven signs of the Apocalypse (not the Marvel character) 
> >----------------------------- 
> >>1. TSR gets sold to WotC 
> > 
> >>2. The appearance of Mage II 
> > 
> >3. White Wolf produces an RPG that is cheerful and optimistic. 
> > 
> > 
> >Does anyone know what the others are? 
>  
> Hero Games publishes a 5th Edition? 
 
Won't happen. Change it to Fuzion becomes an enjoyable and playable system. 
 
> A *successful* science fiction game from TSR? 
 
TSR who? 
Change it do D+D once again becomes an enjoyable and playable system. 
 
BTW, TSR does have a new SF game coming out supposedly. Don't know many  
details but looks like a more mystical Traveller. B5 clone maybe? 
 
> L. Ron Hubbard stops publishing posthumous books? 
 
Inevitable. 
 
> A game is published that lives up to its own back-cover blurb? 
 
Done. Feng Shui, Castle Falkenstein. Both are what they claim.  
Whether they are good is another story. (I vote yes.) 
 
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:18:40 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net 
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:07 AM 7/17/97 -0700, Michael Telford wrote: 
>David A. Fair wrote: 
>>  
>> Started by others... 
>>  
>> >Seven signs of the Apocalypse (not the Marvel character) 
>> >----------------------------- 
>> > 
>> >>1. TSR gets sold to WotC 
>> > 
>> >>2. The appearance of Mage II 
>> > 
>> >3. White Wolf produces an RPG that is cheerful and optimistic. 
> 
>	What might that be? 
> 
> 
 
They did do the Streetfighter game. :) 
	What sick person put an "S" in lisp? 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:29:45 -0400 (EDT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> > >3. White Wolf produces an RPG that is cheerful and optimistic. 
>  
> 	What might that be? 
>  
 
For a while now WW has had an "upbeat science fiction" rpg in the early 
planning stages.  It has not, to my knowledge, been released as of yet, 
but it has been "on the way" for a couple of years now. 
 
-Eric ***** 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 17 Jul 97 20:03:48 GMT 
Subject: New limit:resisted normally? 
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
Path: october!opal 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
  
 h> From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
 h> Subject: New limit:resisted normally? 
 h> To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 h> How much would the limitation 'Resisted by Normal  
 h> Defenses' be worth? This 
 h> would apply to power which normally require power  
 h> defense, mental defense, 
 h> flash defense, etc. I'm tihnking -1/2 to -1. 
  
In earlier versions of Champions this was a -1 1/2 limitation (the 
opposite of AVLD, presumably).  In 4th Ed, *some* limitations are 
half the value of the corresponding advantage.  For instance,  
'Continuous' is a +1 advantage, but Instant is a -1/2 limitation. 
So, -3/4, might be a reasonable level.   
   
BTW, the 3rd ed -1 1/2 level was for Transforms that worked against 
Resistant PD or ED - and attack that worked against normal defenses,\ 
might have rated an even higher limitation.  I think this was mainly\ 
the product of having an explicit derivation of Transform from KA - 
math was popular with the Hero crowd back then.  :) 
 
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified) 
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:23:03 -0500 
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us> 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:19 PM 7/16/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote: 
>Seven signs of the Apocalypse (not the Marvel character) 
>----------------------------- 
> 
>>1. TSR gets sold to WotC 
> 
>>2. The appearance of Mage II 
> 
>3. White Wolf produces an RPG that is cheerful and optimistic. 
 
	OKAY! We is safe, cause this will never happen! 
	(Unless someone thinks "streetfighter" was optimistic) 
 
> 
> 
>Does anyone know what the others are? 
 
	Hero games does a REAL "Champions 5th edition" 
 
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:51:07 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Earl Kwallek wrote: 
 
> >Seven signs of the Apocalypse (not the Marvel character) 
> >----------------------------- 
> > 
> >>1. TSR gets sold to WotC 
> > 
> >>2. The appearance of Mage II 
> > 
> >3. White Wolf produces an RPG that is cheerful and optimistic. 
>  
> 	OKAY! We is safe, cause this will never happen! 
> 	(Unless someone thinks "streetfighter" was optimistic) 
 
Well, no, but Streetfighter was *way* more tounge-in-cheek than any of 
that Vampire junk WW puts out. 
 
> >Does anyone know what the others are? 
>  
> 	Hero games does a REAL "Champions 5th edition" 
 
Man, I'd be willing to risk the end of the universe for *that*! 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 97 22:29:11  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 17 Jul 97 07:47:07 -0400, David A. Fair wrote: 
 
>Started by others... 
> 
>>Seven signs of the Apocalypse (not the Marvel character) 
>>----------------------------- 
 
 
>4. A major rpg producer, with a loyal following, abandons them when they  
>completely rewrite their game system, saying "The setting sells...". 
 
Hero, GDW (RIP), TSR (RIP)... 
 
OTOH some of the settings out there are *wonderful* - I cite Krynn and 
Glorantha. 
 
Anyone done a Gloranthan Hero? I've doodled bits, but... 
 
qts 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:57:29 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:40 PM 7/16/97 -0700, Eric Chaves wrote: 
>4. NT 97 works flawlessly, Bill Gates makes even more of a shit load of 
>money, becomes president, and nukes Cupritino. 
 
Well, actually, all but the first clause are pretty durn likely, and aren't 
really *dependent* on the first clause. :] 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:57:33 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: NND Killing (was Desolid guns...) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:07 AM 7/17/97 +0000, Michael Gillespie wrote: 
>That bugged me too, until I decided that you could put a extra Stun 
>Multiple on normal attacks.  +1 Stun Multiple on a Killing Attack increases 
>the total Stun damage by an amount equal to the BODY rolled... there's no 
>reason you couldn't do that with a normal attack as well.  For example, a 
>6D6 EB with a +1 SM rolls 22 Stun and 7 BOD.  The +1 SM makes the total 
>STUN equal 22+7=29 STUN. 
> 
>True, there isn't much point to it.  It would probably be easier just to 
>define some of the D6 as Stun Only.  But it's nice when an advantage can 
>apply to as many powers as possible. 
 
Well, nice of you to "decide" such, but the fact remains that such a 
construction is explicitly illegal.  Says so right in the book: "Increased 
STUN Multiplier has no effect on attacks other than Killing Attacks." 
 
In this case, I'm fairly certain that the ISM+EB construction wasn't the 
author attempting to create an "interesting" use of the rules, but rather an 
author who just didn't know any better. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 19:06:42 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:59 PM 7/17/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote: 
>> 4. A major rpg producer, with a loyal following, abandons them when they  
>> completely rewrite their game system, saying "The setting sells...". 
> 
>I think that's a bit unfair, 
 
You're right -- it was completely unfair that they rewrote the system etc. 
(he says, tongue firmly in cheek). 
 
> Hero is still making Hero4 BBB's and supliments after all. 
 
True, although IIRC, it's more accurate to say that Gold Rush Games is still 
making BBB's and supplements, while Hero recycles them into floppies with an 
indigestible format (I know, everybody loves the eye candy Acrobat can do, 
but I think I can lose some art pieces for the ability to print faster than 
one page every 5 minutes). 
 
And I can't help feeling wierd when a friend tells me the floppy version of 
Classic Enemies is going to cost more than the real book did. 
 
> And until Fuzion gets a _much_ better power system (advantages & 
> disadvantages) it will never catch on the way Hero4 has, thereby 
> gauranteeing that hero4 sticks around (knock on wood). 
 
Um, so now it's a credit to Hero Games that HERO will exist in spite, not 
because, of them now? :/ 
 
>Actually, I think Fuzion might increase hero4's popularity (I bought 
>hero4 after I read the free fuzion pdf document, and since I liked the 
>hero4 rules much better, I've never even bothered to buy Fuzion). 
 
Lemme get this straight -- you're a new player who prefers HERO to Fuzion? 
But new players are supposed to wallow in Fuzion's simpler rules and spit on 
HERO's massive complexities! ;] 
 
        *       *       *       *       * 
SARCASM=Off 
 
Okay, apologies if I tossed a bit too much vitriol above.  I just recently 
read an advert for the next C:TNM supplement in Pyramid that made me 
physically nauseous is all.  The world did not need a bad girl Solitaire. 
 
Fuzion may not suck, but its ad copy writers sure do. :/ 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:58:58 -0700 
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net> 
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 1 
 
Earl Kwallek wrote: 
 
> >3. White Wolf produces an RPG that is cheerful and optimistic. 
>  
>         OKAY! We is safe, cause this will never happen! 
>         (Unless someone thinks "streetfighter" was optimistic) 
 
The new science fiction game is called Aeon. And it definately fits the 
description of being upbeat. 
 
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:33:10 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: @topaz.cqu.edu.au@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 3 
 
At 08:19 PM 7/16/97 -0400, you wrote: 
 
> 
>Seven signs of the Apocalypse (not the Marvel character) 
>----------------------------- 
> 
>>1. TSR gets sold to WotC 
> 
>>2. The appearance of Mage II 
> 
>3. White Wolf produces an RPG that is cheerful and optimistic. 
> 
4. Rolemaster is voted 'best beginners game'  
 
5. Mighty morphin rpg sells 1,000,000 copies.  
 
 
From: boaters@ix.netcom.com 
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:31:09 -0400 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 7 
 
@topaz.cqu.edu.au@omg.org wrote: 
 
> At 08:19 PM 7/16/97 -0400, you wrote: 
> 
> > 
> >Seven signs of the Apocalypse (not the Marvel character) 
> >----------------------------- 
> > 
> >>1. TSR gets sold to WotC 
> > 
> >>2. The appearance of Mage II 
> > 
> >3. White Wolf produces an RPG that is cheerful and optimistic. 
> > 
> 4. Rolemaster is voted 'best beginners game' 
> 
> 5. Mighty morphin rpg sells 1,000,000 copies. 
 
   The last one is truly apocalyptic 
 
6.  Seeker is put on a Champions cover where he is kicking some major 
butt. 
 
7.  The 30 rubber monsters will finally finish off Japan / or a case of 
world peace will break out.  (world peace is always going to break out 
right before the apocalypse.) 
 
 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:59:06 -0400 (EDT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 12 
 
> >Actually, I think Fuzion might increase hero4's popularity (I bought 
> >hero4 after I read the free fuzion pdf document, and since I liked the 
> >hero4 rules much better, I've never even bothered to buy Fuzion). 
>  
> Lemme get this straight -- you're a new player who prefers HERO to Fuzion? 
> But new players are supposed to wallow in Fuzion's simpler rules and spit on 
> HERO's massive complexities! ;] 
>  
 
Yeah, well, I'm a computer science major, we're funny that way ;-) 
 
> Okay, apologies if I tossed a bit too much vitriol above.  I just recently 
> read an advert for the next C:TNM supplement in Pyramid that made me 
> physically nauseous is all.  The world did not need a bad girl Solitaire. 
>  
 
You know, that's just WRONG.  I can't help but be disgusted with some 
of the modern age superhero genre mainstays.  Particularly almost any- 
thing having to do with Image (with a special exemption for Astro 
City).  Remember kids, superheroes and killing sprees don't mix! (are 
you listening, Todd McFarlane?) 
 
Golden Age -> Silver Age -> Tin Age -> Gunmetal Age 
 
ugh.  
 
> -- 
> Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
 
-Eric 
 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:38:52 CDT 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-5,8-9,13-17 
From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David  W Toomey) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 13 
 
>> Okay, apologies if I tossed a bit too much vitriol above.  I just  
>recently 
>> read an advert for the next C:TNM supplement in Pyramid that made me 
>> physically nauseous is all.  The world did not need a bad girl  
>Solitaire. 
 
Funny, from reading C:TNM, I didn't perceive a 'bad girl' Solitaire.  I 
read the ad, and was less than thrilled with it, but it does not reflect 
the character write-up... 
 
Having said that, I HATE the way they've twisted EVERYBODY's origin 
around.  Creating new characters with these new origins would have been 
ok, that's how I'm actually using them in my game, but why throw out 
everything??? 
 
 
David W Toomey 
dwtoomey@juno.com 
 
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:14:47 -0400 
From: The THUNDERBIRD <thunder@bconnex.net> 
Organization: The Kingdom of Thunder 
CC: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 14 
 
Eric Burns wrote: 
> You know, that's just WRONG.  I can't help but be disgusted with some 
> of the modern age superhero genre mainstays.  Particularly almost any- 
> thing having to do with Image (with a special exemption for Astro 
> City).  Remember kids, superheroes and killing sprees don't mix! (are 
> you listening, Todd McFarlane?) 
>  
> Golden Age -> Silver Age -> Tin Age -> Gunmetal Age 
>  
> ugh. 
 
 HERE!HERE!  Couldn't agree more.  Image spelled the end of comics in 
our lifetime!  Sooner or later, the buying public is going to realise 
that fluff doesn't last.  If it did, Image wouldn't be recruiting titles 
like Astro City, Strangers in Paradise, and other Story Driven Titles! 
 
Why can't we return to a new age of champions!!! 
 
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:31:13 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 15 
 
At 08:19 PM 7/16/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote: 
>Seven signs of the Apocalypse (not the Marvel character) 
>----------------------------- 
> 
>>1. TSR gets sold to WotC 
> 
>>2. The appearance of Mage II 
> 
>3. White Wolf produces an RPG that is cheerful and optimistic. 
> 
> 
>Does anyone know what the others are? 
 
  How about, Stainless Steel Rat gives a rave review for an Ultimate book? 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:11:51 -0400 (EDT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-UID: 17 
 
>   How about, Stainless Steel Rat gives a rave review for an Ultimate book? 
 
Now wait a second, are you saying that "The Stainless Steel Rat Sings the 
Blues"? 
 
erm... sorry 
 
-Eric 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:27:22 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:38 AM 7/18/97 CDT, David  W Toomey wrote: 
>Funny, from reading C:TNM, I didn't perceive a 'bad girl' Solitaire.  I 
>read the ad, and was less than thrilled with it, but it does not reflect 
>the character write-up... 
 
That's okay -- since I don't own C:TNM or the new supplement, my complaint 
was entirely with the ad (and whoever wrote it).  Comparing this with the 
infamous "blood-drenched spikey bits" ad on last GenCon's news flyer, I get 
the feeling that the marketing department at R. Tal went up to a THREE drink 
minimum. :/ 
 
>Having said that, I HATE the way they've twisted EVERYBODY's origin 
>around.  Creating new characters with these new origins would have been 
>ok, that's how I'm actually using them in my game, but why throw out 
>everything??? 
 
My guess is that they caught the same bug that Dan Jurgens did: "I think I 
can out-Crisis George Perez". 
 
You can't, don't try, you're only embarassing yourself. :] 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:33:47 -0400 
X-Sender: absga@elbertonga.com 
From: Patrick Barden <absga@elbertonga.com> 
Subject: My Favorite Supplement? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I have a question that may open the proverbial can of worms, but here goes. 
 
I have in my possession copies of Champions I, II, II, IV, and C:TNM.  I 
also own Allies and Enemies: Assemble.  I am on a very limited income and I 
can't afford to buy new books without careful though.  What I want to know 
is what supplements you use, enjoy and would recommend.  I have chosen to 
stick with Champions IV as my base campaign.  You may send answers to me 
personally if you choose at absga@elbertonga.com. 
 
The following is what I want to know: 
 
Title, subject matter covered, what it has to offer a campaign and why you 
enjoy it.  this information will help me choose what supplements to buy. 
Some that I am particularly interested in info on is the Ultimate Series, 
Horror Hero, Dark Champions and anything else you might suggest. 
 
I look forward to your answers. 
 
Patrick B. 
 
P.S. Does anyone have a copy of the Hero Bestiary that they would be willing 
to part with.  I have looked everywhere and cannot find one. 
 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 17:17:19 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:29 PM 7/17/97, qts wrote: 
>>4. A major rpg producer, with a loyal following, abandons them when they  
>>completely rewrite their game system, saying "The setting sells...". 
> 
>Hero, GDW (RIP), TSR (RIP)... 
 
1.  When, precisely, did TSR completely rewrite their game system?  That is, 
are you referring to 2nd Ed. AD&D or SAGA? 
 
2.  More to the point -- since when was TSR RIP?  Just because WotC bought 
them out?  That's like saying ABC went off the air when Disney bought 
Capital Cities -- it just doesn't work like that. 
 
== 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:40:25 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Eric Burns wrote: 
 
> You know, that's just WRONG.  I can't help but be disgusted with some 
> of the modern age superhero genre mainstays.  Particularly almost any- 
> thing having to do with Image (with a special exemption for Astro 
> City).  Remember kids, superheroes and killing sprees don't mix! (are 
> you listening, Todd McFarlane?) 
 
I'd like to point out that Image is putting out Mage II, so they can't be 
*all* bad. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From: BeerCarboy@aol.com 
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 21:53:06 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re:  Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>I'd like to point out that Image is putting out Mage II, so they can't be 
>*all* bad. 
 
 
Drat!! Now I can't read it . . .  
 
 
 
 
Carter Humphrey 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
                                                           BeerCarboy@AOL.com 
 
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 21:59:11 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>> You know, that's just WRONG.  I can't help but be disgusted with some 
>> of the modern age superhero genre mainstays.  Particularly almost any- 
>> thing having to do with Image (with a special exemption for Astro 
>> City).  Remember kids, superheroes and killing sprees don't mix! (are 
>> you listening, Todd McFarlane?) 
> 
>I'd like to point out that Image is putting out Mage II, so they can't be 
>*all* bad. 
 
Image carried Groo for a short period (before Sergio and Mark decided to 
quit doing Groo for a while). That alone proves that Image isn't all bad 
(hold up your hand if you're a Groo fan!). 
 
Oh, and as for Spawn, it's biggest problem is the lack of motion in the 
plot. He should have figured everything out by issue 50, then have the plot 
take another direction. As it is, the last dozen issues have all been the 
same... 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone 
else's house?" 
-NHS #56 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
 
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:52:26 -0700 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: My Favorite Supplement? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 04:33 PM 7/18/97 -0400, Patrick Barden wrote: 
>I have a question that may open the proverbial can of worms, but here goes. 
> 
>I have in my possession copies of Champions I, II, II, IV, and C:TNM.  I 
>also own Allies and Enemies: Assemble.  I am on a very limited income and I 
>can't afford to buy new books without careful though.  What I want to know 
>is what supplements you use, enjoy and would recommend.  I have chosen to 
>stick with Champions IV as my base campaign.  You may send answers to me 
>personally if you choose at absga@elbertonga.com. 
> 
My two favorite supplements for CIV are Dark Champions and Ultimate Martial 
Artis, because both are what I call 'dense'. They are packed with ideas, 
rules, odd and interesting ways of looking at powers and ads/disads, and 
are likely to inspire ideas. (Also, I tend to prefer lower powered, 
'heroic' games, which these books aim at) 
 
If you are playing non-superhero Hero system, I also strongly recomment 
Almanac I, which has the spirit rules and several nifty ways to extend the 
magic system. 
 
From: Firelynx16@aol.com 
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:21:29 -0400 (EDT) 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: My Favorite Supplement? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 97-07-18 19:05:26 EDT, you write: 
 
<< P.S. Does anyone have a copy of the Hero Bestiary that they would be 
willing 
 to part with.  I have looked everywhere and cannot find one. >> 
 
Try the Sentry Box... they're a fine outfit out of somewhere in Canada that 
has everything you could want if it's still in print... games, books, mags, 
etc. 
 
http://www.sentrybox.com/ 
 
Later, 
'Lynx 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." <richberg@erols.com> 
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 02:37:23 -0400 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Newsgroups: october.hero 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
Path: october.com!not-for-mail 
Organization: Prometheus Corp. 
Lines: 26 
X-Sender: richberg@nrf-as1s54.erols.com 
Nntp-Posting-Host: nrf-as1s54.erols.com 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
herolist wrote: 
>  
> From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
> Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
> Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
> To: champ-l@omg.org 
>  
> On Thu, 17 Jul 97 07:47:07 -0400, David A. Fair wrote: 
>  
> >Started by others... 
> > 
> >>Seven signs of the Apocalypse (not the Marvel character) 
> >>----------------------------- 
>  
> >4. A major rpg producer, with a loyal following, abandons them when they 
> >completely rewrite their game system, saying "The setting sells...". 
>  
> Hero, GDW (RIP), TSR (RIP)... 
>  
> OTOH some of the settings out there are *wonderful* - I cite Krynn and 
> Glorantha. 
>  
> Anyone done a Gloranthan Hero? I've doodled bits, but... 
 
Can't give you any solid info stat wise, but I played in a Gloranthan Hero  
campaign that worked well. We played the River of Cradles saga and had a blast. 
 
From: Chuff78002@aol.com 
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 07:29:21 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 17/07/97  06:26:03pm, you write: 
 
<< >3. White Wolf produces an RPG that is cheerful and optimistic. 
  
 	What might that be? 
  >> 
 
Err Changeling !  It gets played mostly for laughs and that certainly seems 
the way it should be....I mean, teenagers armed with sneakers that stink so 
much that a room full of Technomancers fall over choking/puking etc ! 
Or maybe it's just that we British saw the humour in it wether it's there or 
not..  :- ) 
 
Chuff78002. 
 
From: Chuff78002@aol.com 
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 07:29:27 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Fuzion help... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I know that this isn't the Fuzion list, but as I'm fairly swamped with e-mail 
from my two pbem's I'm now running plus messages from you guys, I will resist 
the urge to subscribe to the fuzion list for a while longer ! 
Anyway, I'm hopeful that some kind soul out there can help me with two 
queries I have.  On the printed examples of character sheets at the back of 
the C:TNM book it states base points 50 for disads, where the hell does that 
figure come from ? 
Is it standard or is it determined by the dm ? 
Secondly, how DO complications provide extra points for 
characteristics/powers ?  I've checked the book through and cannot find clear 
examples at all !  So far, all my Fuzion npc's have been converted over from 
Hero with no trouble so I thought I'd create a few pure Fuzion characters and 
then ran into the above stumbling block(s)..........HEEELP ! 
 
Yours desperately, 
Chuff78002. 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 97 15:19:42  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 17:17:19 -0500, Bryan Berggren wrote: 
 
>At 10:29 PM 7/17/97, qts wrote: 
>>>4. A major rpg producer, with a loyal following, abandons them when they  
>>>completely rewrite their game system, saying "The setting sells...". 
>> 
>>Hero, GDW (RIP), TSR (RIP)... 
> 
>1.  When, precisely, did TSR completely rewrite their game system?  That is, 
>are you referring to 2nd Ed. AD&D or SAGA? 
 
I'm referring to (a) the Complete... series and (b) to the Players 
Options series. 
 
>2.  More to the point -- since when was TSR RIP?  Just because WotC bought 
>them out?  That's like saying ABC went off the air when Disney bought 
>Capital Cities -- it just doesn't work like that. 
 
They're no longer their own masters. Nuff said. 
 
qts 
 
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:53:23 -0400 (EDT) 
Organization: VTSFFC 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
> Having said that, I HATE the way they've twisted EVERYBODY's origin 
> around.  Creating new characters with these new origins would have been 
> ok, that's how I'm actually using them in my game, but why throw out 
> everything??? 
 
   Personal theory:  it's one of those "alternate universe" things. 
You encounter ones with good/evil switched, etc.  Welll, this happens 
to be a dimension that would _really_ foul up travelers playing the 
"Champs in 3D" book. 
 
                                             Daniel Pawtowski 
  
 
From: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 97 13:10:18 -0400 
Subject: Re: My Favorite Supplement? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In <199707182033.QAA27015@emerald&> on 07/18/97  
   at 04:33 PM, Patrick Barden <absga@elbertonga.com> said: 
 
>I have a question that may open the proverbial can of worms, but here 
>goes. 
 
>I have in my possession copies of Champions I, II, II, IV, and C:TNM.  I 
>also own Allies and Enemies: Assemble.  I am on a very limited income and 
>I can't afford to buy new books without careful though.  What I want to 
>know is what supplements you use, enjoy and would recommend.  I have 
>chosen to stick with Champions IV as my base campaign.  You may send 
>answers to me personally if you choose at absga@elbertonga.com. 
 
>The following is what I want to know: 
 
>Title, subject matter covered, what it has to offer a campaign and why 
>you enjoy it.  this information will help me choose what supplements to 
>buy. Some that I am particularly interested in info on is the Ultimate 
>Series, Horror Hero, Dark Champions and anything else you might suggest. 
 
>I look forward to your answers. 
 
>Patrick B. 
 
>P.S. Does anyone have a copy of the Hero Bestiary that they would be 
>willing to part with.  I have looked everywhere and cannot find one. 
 
 
 
Since you mention it, "THe Hero Bestiary" is quite usefull.  If you are 
actually using Champions background then "Champions Universe" is good.  
"Classic Enemies" has most of the class villians.  "Dark Champions" is a 
sub-genre that I never really cared for, but as a weapons and gadgets 
supplement it's quite nifty.  "V.I.P.E.R" is possibly the best bad-guy 
book they ever put out (assuming that you like agents) with more VIPER 
dudes and toys than you can shake a stick at.  "Horror Hero" was a 
disappointment. 
 
 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
john.desmarais@ibm.net 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2 
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 15:29:05 -0500 
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:19 PM 7/19/97, qts wrote: 
>>2.  More to the point -- since when was TSR RIP?  Just because WotC bought 
>>them out?  That's like saying ABC went off the air when Disney bought 
>>Capital Cities -- it just doesn't work like that. 
> 
>They're no longer their own masters. Nuff said. 
 
i'm not my own master at the moment (unemployed, financially dependent on 
another).  That hardly makes me RIP. :/ 
 
== 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
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   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: naneiden@iswest.com 
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 14:18:44 -0700 
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com> 
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:29 PM 7/19/97 -0500, ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren) wrote: 
>At 03:19 PM 7/19/97, qts wrote: 
>>>2.  More to the point -- since when was TSR RIP?  Just because WotC bought 
>>>them out?  That's like saying ABC went off the air when Disney bought 
>>>Capital Cities -- it just doesn't work like that. 
>> 
>>They're no longer their own masters. Nuff said. 
> 
>i'm not my own master at the moment (unemployed, financially dependent on 
>another).  That hardly makes me RIP. :/ 
> 
 
You're also not a game company. :) 
 
Hey, I wrote off TSR when Gygax was ousted.  
 
-Nic 
 
 
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