Week Ending August 2, 1997
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 10:49:04 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
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At 07:33 PM 7/26/97 -0400, you wrote:
>On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, Darrin Kelley wrote:
>
>> I, for one, really don't see this as a good era for comics. It isn't
>> stagnation, but an active decline. What the industry really needs is
>> more new ideas and approaches and to pay less attention to what has
>> already been done to death.
>
> It sounds like when you say "industry", you're really only talking
>about the Big Three. Try looking into some small-press and self-published
>titles.
>
u-huh? i find a lot of the 'graphics-first' mags suck, and as for underground work
. . . .
> By the same token, we as consumers have the ability to exert
>tremendous influence on said industry. If you don't like certain books of
>genres, don't buy them. Tell your friends not to buy them either. Write
>a letter to the company in question, telling them what kind of books you'd
>like to see.
>
okay, i urge everyone to buy thunderbolts! and the new justice league title!and thunderstrike! and. . . oh. . . those last two already died, methinks. ..
> It's all well and good to bemoan the state of comics today, but if
>you can't offer a solution, then you're just adding to the noise
>pollution.
>
>
u-huh? wheras offering meaningless ones like you is any more constructive?
William K. Bushway, wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu
> http://Mason.GMU.edu/~wbushway/index.html
> "I'm betting that I'm just abnormal enough to survive."
> -The Tick, The Tick Vs.The Breadmaster
>
>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
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Date: 26 Jul 1997 21:12:18 -0400
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>>>>> "WKB" == William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu> writes:
WKB> Well, I'm afraid it's a cross-media affliction. Take a look at
WKB> what's popular in TV and film these days.
Is why I don't watch TV anymore -- and I used to be a hard-core TV junkie.
Is also why there are few titles from the the big domestic outfits in my
subscription folder. The small press publishers competing with the big
boys cannot afford to market failures, so their work has to be something
better -- take a good, long look at "Shi" and you will see what I mean.
The Japanese imports are really the cream of the crop of Japanese comics:
the US sees less than 1% of the total compics market there, so we here get
the best of the 5% that is not crap.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
\ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 19:01:46 -0700
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net>
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William K Bushway wrote:
> Well, I'm afraid it's a cross-media affliction. Take a look at
> what's popular in TV and film these days.
True, very true. But it is a fairly recent affliction in the comics
industry. A trend which started being felt somewhere around '90 to '92.
There used to be a time where comics, TV and film had a much more
considerable amount of distance between them. The coser they get to each
other, the more likely the negative aspects of more famous mediums
beging to infect the others. Like what has happened to comics.
> It sounds like when you say "industry", you're really only talking
> about the Big Three. Try looking into some small-press and self-published
> titles.
Nope. I was refering to the industry as a whole. There are all too
many small press and independant comic book companies that have been
buying into this trend too.
I buy an overwhelming amount of independant comics. And I spend alot
of time in comic book stores. So I get a pretty broad view of what is
out there. And, from a reader's point of view, it is getting extremely
difficult to find good comics to read. It takes a considerable amount of
effort and serious time commitment. Something that most casual readers
don't have the time to so.
> That'll never change. Comic books are a business, as are almost
> all forms of entertainment. They cost money to make, and publishers
> expect a good return on their investment. Therefore, they'll continue to
> follow trends that sell well, and ignore those that don't.
An excuse that all too many comic book companies follow, I'm afraid.
But it is also a pretty lame excuse. Because the big boys have more than
enough resources to afford a few risks. They are also the ones who make
the trends. So that simply isn't an excuse. They choose to do what they
do because it's easy. Originality is not.
> By the same token, we as consumers have the ability to exert
> tremendous influence on said industry. If you don't like certain books of
> genres, don't buy them. Tell your friends not to buy them either. Write
> a letter to the company in question, telling them what kind of books you'd
> like to see.
Writing letters doesn't help. Been there, done that. But I agree
with you on one of your points. Promoting the good an not supporting the
bad and flashy is a good way to send the comic book companies a message.
But the problem these days is: Flash sells. Style over substance
sells. We have an entire generation of children who care more about
image and flash than anything else. Because that is what the media force
feeds them. This is just as true with the movies as it is in the comics.
I grew up watching Bela Lugosi, Boris Karloff, the works of Ray
Harryhausen, and the rest of what has been called the horror movie and
science fiction classics. And I have gotten plenty of funny looks and
strange comments because I have made occasional references to thoze
classics. Mostly, those young viewers turn up their noses because the
primitive special effects. And they miss out because they just don't see
that most of those movies endure, not because of flash, but because of
there was a huge eemphasis put on the story and the atmosphere.
Something all too many modern move makers leave behind simply for flash
and expensive special effects.
> It's all well and good to bemoan the state of comics today, but if
> you can't offer a solution, then you're just adding to the noise
> pollution.
Actually, I am trying to add to the solution. If I can manage to
scrounge up the money. I have been working constantly to get my own
independant comic book company off the ground. Not because of the money,
but because I really love the material and would like to see it in
print. But if it weren't up to my own standards, I wouldn't even try.
Because, as a writer and an artist, I do care about the quality of what
I produce. It is in my blood.
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 19:05:44 -0700
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net>
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net
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Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
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happyelf! wrote:
> u-huh? wheras offering meaningless ones like you is any more constructive?
Don't you think that was just a tad bit harsh?
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 23:04:28 -0400 (EDT)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
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>>> I, for one, really don't see this as a good era for comics. It isn't
>>> stagnation, but an active decline. What the industry really needs is
>>> more new ideas and approaches and to pay less attention to what has
>>> already been done to death.
>>
>> It sounds like when you say "industry", you're really only talking
>>about the Big Three. Try looking into some small-press and self-published
>>titles.
>u-huh? i find a lot of the 'graphics-first' mags suck, and as for
underground >work
That's very true. I'll also point out that the 'big three' (meaning: DC,
Marvel, and Image) aren't as 'big' as they used to be - Dark Horse in
particular is carving out a decent niche (I'd say it's time to refer to it
as the 'big four'). And there are others that are putting out more than a
dozen titles and 'staying afloat', at least.
Anyway, for 'good' comic books, look no further than Usagi Yojimbo.
Anthropomorphics may not be everyone's cup of tea, but Stan Sakai is putting
out one _fantastic_ comic book. Great art, great writing (admittedly, Stan
plunders a lot of old Japanese folklore, but good for him - it's not old to
_me_!) and great characters. Plus there's plenty there for Japanese
History/Culture buffs too. If you like samurai action and aren't afraid of
funny animals, check out Usagi Yojimbo (Dark Horse, formerly Mirage,
formerly Fantagraphics).
Another one to check out is Gold Digger, by Fred Perry, who is also doing
the honors on Ninja High School while Ben Dunn does other stuff. Gold Digger
is high-everything; high-magic, high-science, high-mayhem. And it's got more
pop-culture references than you can shake a really big stick at. And Fred's
characters still manage to act reasonably like human beings (i.e. a lot of
'normal' folks who live in a superheroic genre) - the title character, Gina
Diggers, is as likely to run from danger as to confront it... Anyhow, Gold
Digger and NHS are currently in a big 12 issue trans-temporal storyline, but
don't let that indimidate you - Gold Digger is just too much fun to miss.
And, as mentioned, North America only sees the cream of the Japanese market
- which pleases me to no end. Gunsmith Cats is endless fun, and I can't help
enjoying Ranma 1/2, no matter how mindless it is...hell, I read comics for
entertainment first...
I think the biggest problem right now with the strictly 'superhero' genre is
one of expectations. Companies like Marvel (say) put out a quality product,
but it doesn't do as well as their flagship titles, so it rapidly gets
abandoned. The 'big three' are looking to create the next mega-hit, and
using the buckshot method to do it (print several dozen new titles...none of
them rocket to top of charts, abandon them. Repeat...). And then there's the
problem of talent-switching. I'm not talking artistic freedom (which is
important, but in an intertwined universe like DC or Marvel, you need
editorial control too), but keeping the same people working on a title for a
reasonable amount of time. Keep switching the writers and artists and they
never get the 'feel' for the characters, who never become more than
'two-dimensional'. (bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch...:-)
One of my biggest disappointments in this respect was Hell's Angel from
Marvel (later, Dark Angel), part of their MarvelUK line a few years back.
After the first 6 or so issues, the switched writers and artists almost
every issue, and not surprisingly, the series went to hell (as did the whole
MarvelUK line - but that was a factor of having a main antagonist [those
pesky Techno-wizards] who were too powerful, forcing contrived plots).
Anyway, raise your hand if you liked Dark Angel (wave, wave).
It just seems that many companies aren't at all interested in building a
loyal following to any one book - the lure of big cash from the next big hit
is too alluring compared to steady money. Smaller companies will kill for
steady money though, so it's no surprise that's where a lot of the quality
is coming from.
Anybody got some other comics they'd like to plug?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone
else's house?"
-NHS #56
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 23:05:25 -0400 (EDT)
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Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
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>WKB> Well, I'm afraid it's a cross-media affliction. Take a look at
>WKB> what's popular in TV and film these days.
>
>Is why I don't watch TV anymore -- and I used to be a hard-core TV junkie.
Man, I hear you. Though the internet is sucking up a bit of my potential
TV-time, I just don't bother with TV much these days. New B5 episode? Okay,
I'll watch. X-Files? If I've got nothing better to do. News? I can get that
on the radio and do other stuff at the same time. Movie? I can rent those
anytime. Of course, it might be a different story if I had cable (though
I've got pretty good aerial - better than most, I'd say).
>Is also why there are few titles from the the big domestic outfits in my
>subscription folder. The small press publishers competing with the big
>boys cannot afford to market failures, so their work has to be something
>better -- take a good, long look at "Shi" and you will see what I mean.
Also, independants tend to have total creative control, and are using their
own characters, that they created, know, and love. That's irreplaceable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone
else's house?"
-NHS #56
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 13:20:55 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
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At 07:01 PM 7/26/97 -0700, you wrote:
>William K Bushway wrote:
>
>> It's all well and good to bemoan the state of comics today, but if
>> you can't offer a solution, then you're just adding to the noise
>> pollution.
>
> Actually, I am trying to add to the solution. If I can manage to
>scrounge up the money. I have been working constantly to get my own
>independant comic book company off the ground. Not because of the money,
>but because I really love the material and would like to see it in
>print. But if it weren't up to my own standards, I wouldn't even try.
>Because, as a writer and an artist, I do care about the quality of what
>I produce. It is in my blood.
>
that's odd- i'm planning something similar. . . . . like ressurecting
the hero game in 2008!
Seriously, this is more likely to suceed that things like writing letters .. .
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 14:17:23 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
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At 11:04 PM 7/26/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>u-huh? i find a lot of the 'graphics-first' mags suck, and as for
>underground >work
>
>That's very true. I'll also point out that the 'big three' (meaning: DC,
>Marvel, and Image) aren't as 'big' as they used to be - Dark Horse in
>particular is carving out a decent niche (I'd say it's time to refer to it
>as the 'big four'). And there are others that are putting out more than a
>dozen titles and 'staying afloat', at least.
>
erm,. . .i was kinda talking about image. . valliant. . . those sort- marvel and dc are still WAY above what i've seen plotwise from either of them- tho i haven't seen that much valiant. . hell, i haven't seen ANy valiant recently. . *l*
>
>It just seems that many companies aren't at all interested in building a
>loyal following to any one book - the lure of big cash from the next big hit
>is too alluring compared to steady money. Smaller companies will kill for
>steady money though, so it's no surprise that's where a lot of the quality
>is coming from.
>
well, that seems a bit squewed- i suppose it depends on what sells- the reason the bottom fell out on marvel, IMO, had a lot to do with the "bag-and-board brigade"
shifting to magic cards for ther collectable of choice. . .
>Anybody got some other comics they'd like to plug?
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone
>else's house?"
>-NHS #56
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>John D. Prins
>jprins@interhop.net
>
>
>
>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 22:27:33 -0700
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net>
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net
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happyelf! wrote:
>
> At 07:01 PM 7/26/97 -0700, you wrote:
> >William K Bushway wrote:
>
> >
> >> It's all well and good to bemoan the state of comics today, but if
> >> you can't offer a solution, then you're just adding to the noise
> >> pollution.
> >
> > Actually, I am trying to add to the solution. If I can manage to
> >scrounge up the money. I have been working constantly to get my own
> >independant comic book company off the ground. Not because of the money,
> >but because I really love the material and would like to see it in
> >print. But if it weren't up to my own standards, I wouldn't even try.
> >Because, as a writer and an artist, I do care about the quality of what
> >I produce. It is in my blood.
> >
>
> that's odd- i'm planning something similar. . . . . like ressurecting
> the hero game in 2008!
OUCH! But I know what you mean. I'm hoping that Hero Starts putting
out printed 4th Edition material again. At least, a new edition of the
Champions rulebook.
> Seriously, this is more likely to suceed that things like writing letters .. .
And better yet, what I have been working on is completely original
material. Yes, it will appear to be superhero genre. But there is a
definate difference in the literary style and many of the genre
conventions. The material is guided more by the standards of science
fiction than the superhero genre. Especially the historical background.
>From the inception, I wanted my material to be different than the rest.
So I made a concerted effort to do so. And I have been wildly
successful. The material just keeps flowing out of me. It is almost like
it is writing itself.
This material actually started out as part of several Champions
campaigns and several science fiction books I had been working on. So it
was only natural that it would outgrow one side of its origins. Gaming.
Not that doing so was such a bad thing. There are certain limits in
gaming that just don't live up to the benefits of the literary medium.
I did offer to do a worldbook for Hero, at one time, based on that
material. But they were having quite an amount of wierdness with their
internal policies at the time, so nothing came of it. But who knows? I
may choose to offer it to them again sometime in the future. Probably
sometime after the comics start seeing print.
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 00:38:35 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
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Bryan Berggren wrote:
> Well, skipping the tall cool glass of smarmy, I have to at least second this
> opinion. THUNDERBOLTS may be the best superhero comicbook in print today --
> kinda depressing, since there's a strong possibility that it's less a full
> title than a 12-issue limited series.
You think so? Im betting that it will become a 'regular' title when the
secret becomes public and at least half of the team decide to continue
being 'good guys'. (Mach-1, Atlas and Songbird almost definately)
To bring this back to the subject of Champions:
Has anyone tried a campaign where the PCs are former villians? I've had
PCs in the past who were former villians who were playing the hero game
(sometimes reluctantly) as part of a 'probation'.
I've toyed with the idea of a campaign where the PCs are all former
villians, now working under new identities as heroes (ala Tbolts) to
make ammends for their pasts. For the most part this would be voluntary
(the characters really DO want to be heroes), but in some cases it would
be because the character was being forced into it for one reason or
another. I was going to make the PCs write up their characters as
villians, then come up with new names and minor modifications to their
powers (usually just new applications of existing powers). It would
lead to alot of interesting plots and subplots...
Todd
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
badtodd@dacmail.net http://www.badtodd.webcabin.com
Interested in TSR Marvel Superhero Lead miniatures?? Email me!!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: BeerCarboy@aol.com
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 02:10:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority
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At Sun, Jul 27, 1997 1:55 AM EDT
X-From: badtodd@dacmail.net (Todd Hanson) wrote:
>Has anyone tried a campaign where the PCs are former villians? I've had
>PCs in the past who were former villians who were playing the hero game
>(sometimes reluctantly) as part of a 'probation'.
>I've toyed with the idea of a campaign where the PCs are all former
>villians, now working under new identities as heroes (ala Tbolts) to
>make ammends for their pasts. For the most part this would be voluntary
>(the characters really DO want to be heroes), but in some cases it would
>be because the character was being forced into it for one reason or
>another. I was going to make the PCs write up their characters as
>villians, then come up with new names and minor modifications to their
>powers (usually just new applications of existing powers). It would
>lead to alot of interesting plots and subplots...
On a related note, if you were going to run a PC villains campaign what sort
opf guidelines would you think would be reasonable? I am thinking about
trying to maintain a four-color feel by moderating the morality of the
villains (so as to keep them from being horrifically vile and unsympathetic)
and limiting their power to a point where they will have to work to beat GM
run heroes and fail fairly often there as well.
Carter Humphrey
BeerCarboy@AOL.com
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 11:36:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu>
Subject: The State of Comics Today
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First, I'd like to apologize for the self-rightous, self-important
tone of my previous message. As I was writing it, I realized I could go
one of two ways: I could have said "I agree" and let it drop, giving in to
the pessimistic side of my nature. Or, I could make my message
inflammatory, in order to spark discussion. Which I did. So sue me.
Second, I'd like to address some of the responses I've gotten.
I'll state for the record that I'm an optimitic realist: I recognize the
problems the comic book, as a medium, is having. However, rather than
focus solely on these problems, I'd rather point out some of the bright
spots on the horizon.
I know my "write a letter" comment came off sounding rather naive.
But, I hate it when people compain about what's wrong with life, but don't
suggest some kind of solution. Writing letters may seem rather pathetic,
but it often works (don't ask me to provide examples, because I honestly
can't think of any that relate to comics). If comic companies don't
recieve reader feedback, all they have to determine response is sales
figures. And we'll all agree that sales-guided mentality is part of
what's wrong with comics.
Finally, I'd like to offer up some things that I think are "good"
about comics today:
- The comic book is no longer just about guys in tights. As a medium, it
is being explored more than ever before. While I may not purchase some of
these new efforts, it is deeply gratifying to know that I have the
opportunity.
- More and more independant titles are seeing the light of day. It's nice
to see that even national chains, like Another Universe, are making an
effort to carry them.
- Comic writers are being recognized as much as artists. People are
realizing that pretty pictures are nice, but without a solid story behind
them, you may as well just go and watch TV.
Anybody want to add to this list?
William K. Bushway, wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu
http://Mason.GMU.edu/~wbushway/index.html
"I'm betting that I'm just abnormal enough to survive."
-The Tick, The Tick Vs.The Breadmaster
From: Legionair@aol.com
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 14:44:05 -0400 (EDT)
cc: dwtoomey@juno.com, Galterio@aol.com, challiday@sbsc.siemens.co.uk,
XAGNUT@aol.com, RogueWritr@aol.com, patternghost@juno.com,
DoctorJest@aol.com, Zesmerelda@aol.com, rojasa@uthscsa.edu (rojasa),
Fitzroi@aol.com, Zira22@aol.com, CathyOzog@compuserve.com,
ACruz2772@aol.com, Egwenna@aol.com, Cypris2kaz@aol.com,
superbaby@juno.com
Subject: Current Champions PBEM Looking for Players
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One of my ongoing PBEM games is in need of some new blood to fill out the
thinning ranks. If you're interested please read on. If you're not
interested, then please accept my apologies for sucking up bandwidth.
Star Trek: Future Champions us a futuristic superhero PBEM using the fourth
edition Champions rules. The game has been running continuously since 1/97,
so it's still relatively new game. The game is based in a universe that
combines DC Comic characters with the Star Trek environment.
I have attempted to merge the histories and universes in seamless manner, not
an obvious one. In other words, you won't find Batman as a captain of a
starship. What you might find is a descendent of Bruce Wayne enlisted in
Starfleet.
As an example of what I'm talking about, you can find a capsulized timeline
of the game's history on my web site.
The current campaign takes place about the U.S.S. Janus, the flag ship of the
newly commisioned Meta Division of Starfleet. You can also find the current
crew compliment listed on my web site as well.
Character generation is very open ended since I don't usually harp on
character points. A character's concept is a hundred times more important to
me than having everyone's characters come up with 250 points exactly.
There's two conditions on this, I don't let players abuse this situation and
I don't let any one character be more important than all of the others.
If you're interested in the game and would like more information, please take
a look at my web site:
http://members.aol.com/legionair/stfc/index.htm
I'm looking to add additional players immediately as well. I have about a
half dozen open slots on the Janus, but if there is enough interest, I will
consider starting a second campaign line on a diferent starship.
Thanks for your time,
Jason Galterio
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 12:10:33 -0700
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net>
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The State of Comics Today
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William K Bushway wrote:
>
> First, I'd like to apologize for the self-rightous, self-important
> tone of my previous message. As I was writing it, I realized I could go
> one of two ways: I could have said "I agree" and let it drop, giving in to
> the pessimistic side of my nature. Or, I could make my message
> inflammatory, in order to spark discussion. Which I did. So sue me.
Being the target, I wasn't offended by it. You made some good
points.
> Second, I'd like to address some of the responses I've gotten.
> I'll state for the record that I'm an optimitic realist: I recognize the
> problems the comic book, as a medium, is having. However, rather than
> focus solely on these problems, I'd rather point out some of the bright
> spots on the horizon.
Examining the problems allows one to find ways of solving them. That
is the bottom line. I am an analytical realist. Someone who focuses in
on the problems and then looks for ways to solve them. Injecting
optimism into the equasion just distracts from those efforts.
> I know my "write a letter" comment came off sounding rather naive.
> But, I hate it when people compain about what's wrong with life, but don't
> suggest some kind of solution. Writing letters may seem rather pathetic,
> but it often works (don't ask me to provide examples, because I honestly
> can't think of any that relate to comics). If comic companies don't
> recieve reader feedback, all they have to determine response is sales
> figures. And we'll all agree that sales-guided mentality is part of
> what's wrong with comics.
But here is the problem central to writing letters to any of the big
comic book companies. They throw the ones that aren't complimentary
away. They would much rather hear how great they are instead of an
honest review of their work. Which effectively neutralizes the whole
reason to write letters to them in the first place. And since the big
guys take up the lion's share of the market, no real difference is made.
So one has to adapt. To find another way to get the message across. Like
hitting them where it really counts. By encouraging others not to buy
the junk comics in the first place.
> Finally, I'd like to offer up some things that I think are "good"
> about comics today:
>
> - The comic book is no longer just about guys in tights. As a medium, it
> is being explored more than ever before. While I may not purchase some of
> these new efforts, it is deeply gratifying to know that I have the
> opportunity.
Actually, I would like to dispel this myth once and for all. During
the 70's and 80's, other types opf comics did exist. There was quite an
amount of diversity. From the war comics to Archie to Casper and the
other Harvey titles to Disney. There were quite an amount of other
genres and mediums available. Comics never have been purely superhero.
Superheroes are the ones that become more dominant during the last 20 to
30 years. But the other kinds of comics have always been around.
> - More and more independant titles are seeing the light of day. It's nice
> to see that even national chains, like Another Universe, are making an
> effort to carry them.
There are many reasons for this. The biggest being, of coarse, that
the mainstream comics are boring. That depending on them as a primary
market leaves most comic book stores extremely vulnerable to their rises
and ebbs of popularity. Diversafication allows a comic book store to
rely more on the entire market, instead od the giants of the industry.
It's good for them financially. And it gives the consumer a more broad
band look at the market.
> - Comic writers are being recognized as much as artists. People are
> realizing that pretty pictures are nice, but without a solid story behind
> them, you may as well just go and watch TV.
This is a preception that has yet to hit the majority of the comic
book buying public. As long as there is a majority of the people who buy
comics that care more about style over substance, the comic book market
and the publishers do business won't change.
Back in the 80's, a certain giant among the comics indistry was
credited nationally for encouraging literacy. Now, the majority of their
comics do anything but that. By promoting style and flash over content.
Which makes this a dark era for comics.
But the solution is much more likely to come from the independant
market. It is there where new approaches are their bread and butter. All
that really needs to be done is to have someone come up with a line of
superior quality comics that become a gigantic commercial success. One
that will make the rest of the industry stand up and take notice. That
is the sort of thing that makes a real change.
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 19:12:51 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: New spin on Variable Advantage and Multipower
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On 25 Jul 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> AJ> The ability to switch between many different +1/4 advantages is not
> AJ> worth the same as the ability to switch between many different +1
> AJ> advantages
>
> Yes, it is: the +1 is the ability to alter one's advantage "configuration"
> much as one can alter allocation of skill levels. How much is being
> configured has no bearing on one's ability to do so.
Yes, it does. The larger the advantage, the more possible configurations
there are; therefore it's more useful to be able to switch around a larger
one. This is independent of the fact that just having a larger Advantage
is better, therefore it makes sense for the cost of Variable Advantage
itself to vary with the amount of Advantage that can be changed.
> That is why it is based on the cost of the base power rather than the
> amount of advantages one may play with.
Why should it be based on the cost of the base power, anyway? If we accept
your argument above, by similar reasoning the size of the Power has no
bearing on the usefulness of being able to reconfigure it.
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 20:02:09 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
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On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, Eric Burns wrote:
> * Super-types often have a hodgepodge of unrelated powers (eg
> Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Superman/girl/boy, Wonder Woman)
Nightcrawler's only actual power is teleportation, but I'll grant that his
physical mutations don't seem to be in any way related to this.
> * Super-powers are a fairly recent occurance (within the past 100 years)
I can't think of any superhero worlds where this is the case, other than
"one origin" worlds. It certainly seems to be a given that they're more
common in modern times, though.
> * Everyone with super-powers is in their late teens or 20's.
Certainly not.
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 20:13:23 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
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On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, Bryan Berggren wrote:
> >* The government has no problem with super-heroes stopping crime (without
> >first being trained and liscensed as law-enforcement).
>
> The existence of Henry Peter Gyrich in Marvel storylines implies quite the
> opposite -- rather, "The government's problems with superheroes stopping
> crimes are irrelevant, unless the government is represented by someone EVIL
> (Bastion)."
The original poster is right, though... in general, the police and the
rest of the law enforcement system don't mind people dressing up in funny
costumes and dragging in criminals without any official sanction.
Government agencies are often opposed to superhumans in general
(mostly in Marvel), but not to this particular aspect of their activities
except as part of specific stories.
> 1. "Good" and "Evil" are tangible forces in the world, not just
> abstract and arbitrary concepts.
This is hardly a convention of the superhero genre as I know it. There's
usually a fairly clear demarcation of who the good guys and bad guys are,
but that's a far cry from Good and Evil existing as tangible forces.
> 8. Like attracts like. Having superhuman powers will exponentially
> increase your likelihood of encountering superhuman individuals.
> Certain phenomena of reality can ONLY be percieved or encountered
> by superhumans (such as Marvel's Eternity).
If you want to be absurdly nitpicky, Dr. Strange isn't superhuman. At any
rate, I'm sure if you searched hard enough you could find occasions where
cosmic beings have interacted with honest-to-goodness normals.
From: "Lisa Hartjes" <psyche@ionsys.com>
Subject: Two Quick Questions
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 19:55:41 -0400
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I have two situations I need some advice on. A player is submitting a
character to one of my pbem's, and the character is blind due to an
accident. Which normally wouldn't be a problem, but the player is also
taking powers that require sight for them to work:
Teleportation - the player has not bought any fixed or floating locations
purchased. According to the BBB, if none are purchased, the teleportation
relies on line of sight. The player does have Spatial Awareness. Would
the Spatial Awareness be sufficient to allow a teleport? Also, is the
range of the Spatial Awareness 10" or more? I can't find anything in the
BBB to tell me what the range is.
Clairsentience: The character has the ability to extend her senses into
the spirit plane, with the ability to use all five senses. Now, if the
character is blind, can she still take Clairsentience: Normal Sight? I'd
consider no as an answer, as the character as the physical lim blind.
Blind is blind, no
matter where you are.
Thanks in advance for your help!!
Lisa Hartjes
psyche@ionsys.com
Home: http://www.ionsys.com/~psyche
Work: http://web.idirect.com/~ncg
From: "Lisa Hartjes" <psyche@ionsys.com>
Subject: Another Question
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 20:24:41 -0400
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I have another player that is asking me how (for possible future reference)
to build the following power within the Hero System:
The power enables you to vary your physical appearance (normal sight only)
to a different image - like an elven glamourie (sp?).
I have said Images with modifiers. Doesn't like the Images idea because of
the END cost and the PER roll.
What suggestions do you have?
Lisa Hartjes
psyche@ionsys.com
Home: http://www.ionsys.com/~psyche
Work: http://web.idirect.com/~ncg
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 21:48:39 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
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>I have two situations I need some advice on. A player is submitting a
>character to one of my pbem's, and the character is blind due to an
>accident. Which normally wouldn't be a problem, but the player is also
>taking powers that require sight for them to work:
>
>Teleportation - the player has not bought any fixed or floating locations
>purchased. According to the BBB, if none are purchased, the teleportation
>relies on line of sight. The player does have Spatial Awareness. Would
>the Spatial Awareness be sufficient to allow a teleport? Also, is the
>range of the Spatial Awareness 10" or more? I can't find anything in the
>BBB to tell me what the range is.
Heck yes Spatial Awareness is good enough for teleporting. All you really
need to know is what's where, not what color it is or what the nearby signs
read :-). The range for Spatial Awareness is the same as any ranged sense -
theoretically infinite, but subject to PER penalties at increasing ranges.
>Clairsentience: The character has the ability to extend her senses into
>the spirit plane, with the ability to use all five senses. Now, if the
>character is blind, can she still take Clairsentience: Normal Sight? I'd
>consider no as an answer, as the character as the physical lim blind.
>Blind is blind, no
>matter where you are.
Hmmm. I'd say let the character see in the spirit plane - but lower the
value of the 'blind' disadvantage by 5 points, as it is now a 'frequent'
disad rather than an 'all the time' (i.e. Phys.Lim.: Blind in the Physical
Plane [Frequent, Total])
Which raises an interesting point. If I'm blind but have Spatial Awareness,
is my 'Blind' Disad still worth the 'All the Time, Total' limitation? After
all, I may not be able to see the world, but if I'm able to sense where
objects and people are via Spatial Awareness, my blindness isn't all that
limiting anymore, is it?
Personally, though, I think things like blindness and deafness shouldn't be
bought as Disadvantages, but as negative cost senses (Sight: Sense, Range,
Discriminatory, Targeting; 35 points, so blindness is worth -35 points, just
like 5 STR is worth -5 points).
So trading in Sight (35) for Spatial Awareness (25) should be a net -10 cost
to the character.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone
else's house?"
-NHS #56
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 21:48:43 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Another Question
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>I have another player that is asking me how (for possible future reference)
>to build the following power within the Hero System:
>
>The power enables you to vary your physical appearance (normal sight only)
>to a different image - like an elven glamourie (sp?).
>
>I have said Images with modifiers. Doesn't like the Images idea because of
>the END cost and the PER roll.
>
>What suggestions do you have?
Well, Images with a giant PER modifier and 0 END would work. But the best
solution is probably Shapeshift, 0 END. No PER rolls involved and makes no
'real' change to the player - just changes the image. If it's just an
illusion that can be 'felt' through ("Hey, her ears aren't really pointy!"),
or seen through by something like Sense Magic, just add an appropriate
limitation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone
else's house?"
-NHS #56
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:58:23 +1000
From: Steven Clark <nahema@mailbox.uq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Another Question
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Lisa Hartjes wrote:
>
> I have another player that is asking me how (for possible future reference)
> to build the following power within the Hero System:
>
> The power enables you to vary your physical appearance (normal sight only)
> to a different image - like an elven glamourie (sp?).
>
> I have said Images with modifiers. Doesn't like the Images idea because of
> the END cost and the PER roll.
>
> What suggestions do you have?
>
Two options:
1) Shapeshift - this requires a disguise skill roll to imitate a
particular
person though. Also costs end, but can buy O end on it...
2) Cosmetic Transformation (Self Only) - This works pretty well, you can
change both your appearence and your voice, don't require
a disguise skill roll, and no worries about end or per
rolls to see through it.... Also keeps going if you're
unconscious or stunned.
Steven
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:01:55 +1000
From: Steven Clark <nahema@mailbox.uq.edu.au>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Lisa Hartjes wrote:
>
> I have two situations I need some advice on. A player is submitting a
> character to one of my pbem's, and the character is blind due to an
> accident. Which normally wouldn't be a problem, but the player is also
> taking powers that require sight for them to work:
>
> Teleportation - the player has not bought any fixed or floating locations
> purchased. According to the BBB, if none are purchased, the teleportation
> relies on line of sight. The player does have Spatial Awareness. Would
> the Spatial Awareness be sufficient to allow a teleport? Also, is the
> range of the Spatial Awareness 10" or more? I can't find anything in the
> BBB to tell me what the range is.
>
Spatial Awareness is a sense... It works like sight or radar or sonar,
distance isn't a problem, just get penalties to your perception rolls
with
distance.
> Clairsentience: The character has the ability to extend her senses into
> the spirit plane, with the ability to use all five senses. Now, if the
> character is blind, can she still take Clairsentience: Normal Sight? I'd
> consider no as an answer, as the character as the physical lim blind.
> Blind is blind, no
> matter where you are.
>
Why not let him take Clairsentience with his spatial awareness? That way
you nicely skirt the issue entirely...
> Thanks in advance for your help!!
>
Well, I hope I've helped!
Steven
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:45:30 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
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At 07:55 PM 7/27/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I have two situations I need some advice on. A player is submitting a
>character to one of my pbem's, and the character is blind due to an
>accident. Which normally wouldn't be a problem, but the player is also
>taking powers that require sight for them to work:
>
>Teleportation - the player has not bought any fixed or floating locations
>purchased. According to the BBB, if none are purchased, the teleportation
>relies on line of sight. The player does have Spatial Awareness. Would
>the Spatial Awareness be sufficient to allow a teleport? Also, is the
>range of the Spatial Awareness 10" or more? I can't find anything in the
>BBB to tell me what the range is.
>
the range should be like sight- an unobstructed line, with mounting per
modifiers. fine for teleport, i'd expect. ..
>Clairsentience: The character has the ability to extend her senses into
>the spirit plane, with the ability to use all five senses. Now, if the
>character is blind, can she still take Clairsentience: Normal Sight? I'd
>consider no as an answer, as the character as the physical lim blind.
>Blind is blind, no
>matter where you are.
>
correct.
>Thanks in advance for your help!!
>
>
>Lisa Hartjes
>
>psyche@ionsys.com
>Home: http://www.ionsys.com/~psyche
>Work: http://web.idirect.com/~ncg
>
>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: New spin on Variable Advantage and Multipower
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 27 Jul 1997 22:47:27 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "TB" == Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> writes:
TB> Yes, it does. The larger the advantage, the more possible configurations
TB> there are; therefore it's more useful to be able to switch around a larger
TB> one. This is independent of the fact that just having a larger Advantage
TB> is better, therefore it makes sense for the cost of Variable Advantage
TB> itself to vary with the amount of Advantage that can be changed.
And thank you for ignoring the comments I made that addressed this: a +1
Variable Advantage does cost more than a +1/4 Variable Advantage.
>> That is why it is based on the cost of the base power rather than the
>> amount of advantages one may play with.
TB> Why should it be based on the cost of the base power, anyway?
It is a power advantage; that is how all power advantages are calculated.
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\
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 27 Jul 1997 22:53:29 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "LH" == Lisa Hartjes <psyche@ionsys.com> writes:
LH> Teleportation - the player has not bought any fixed or floating
LH> locations purchased. According to the BBB, if none are purchased, the
LH> teleportation relies on line of sight.
Clear line of sight does not require vision. It means that there is an
unobstructed path between source and target.
[...]
LH> Now, if the character is blind, can she still take Clairsentience:
LH> Normal Sight?
Yes... but if it can circumvent the disadvantage then the disadvantage is
worth less of a bonus, or perhaps none at all.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Another Question
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 27 Jul 1997 22:59:05 -0400
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>>>>> "LH" == Lisa Hartjes <psyche@ionsys.com> writes:
LH> I have said Images with modifiers. Doesn't like the Images idea
LH> because of the END cost and the PER roll.
Yeah, well, hooray for the munchkins. Images is the way to do it.
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X-Sender: wbandsis@mail.westco.net
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 23:21:34 -0400
From: Charles Badger <wbandsis@westco.net>
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 16
At 19:55 07/27/97 -0400, Lisa Hartjes wrote:
>I have two situations I need some advice on. A player is submitting a
>character to one of my pbem's, and the character is blind due to an
>accident. Which normally wouldn't be a problem, but the player is also
>taking powers that require sight for them to work:
>
>Teleportation - the player has not bought any fixed or floating locations
>purchased. According to the BBB, if none are purchased, the teleportation
>relies on line of sight. The player does have Spatial Awareness. Would
>the Spatial Awareness be sufficient to allow a teleport? Also, is the
>range of the Spatial Awareness 10" or more? I can't find anything in the
>BBB to tell me what the range is.
>
>Clairsentience: The character has the ability to extend her senses into
>the spirit plane, with the ability to use all five senses. Now, if the
>character is blind, can she still take Clairsentience: Normal Sight? I'd
>consider no as an answer, as the character as the physical lim blind.
>Blind is blind, no
>matter where you are.
Actually I would allow it since unlike normal sight, clairsentience involves
a limited area of sight and still costs endurance to use. Also to switch
area viewed would require concentration and a 1/2 phase area.
The spatial sense does work at range just use the normal sense perception
range mods for whether or not they would sense anything.
-----
Charles T. Badger
X-Sender: wbandsis@mail.westco.net
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 23:29:54 -0400
From: Charles Badger <wbandsis@westco.net>
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
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At 21:48 07/27/97 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>I have two situations I need some advice on. A player is submitting a
>>character to one of my pbem's, and the character is blind due to an
>>accident. Which normally wouldn't be a problem, but the player is also
>>taking powers that require sight for them to work:
>>
>>Teleportation - the player has not bought any fixed or floating locations
>>purchased. According to the BBB, if none are purchased, the teleportation
>>relies on line of sight. The player does have Spatial Awareness. Would
>>the Spatial Awareness be sufficient to allow a teleport? Also, is the
>>range of the Spatial Awareness 10" or more? I can't find anything in the
>>BBB to tell me what the range is.
>
>Heck yes Spatial Awareness is good enough for teleporting. All you really
>need to know is what's where, not what color it is or what the nearby signs
>read :-). The range for Spatial Awareness is the same as any ranged sense -
>theoretically infinite, but subject to PER penalties at increasing ranges.
>
>>Clairsentience: The character has the ability to extend her senses into
>>the spirit plane, with the ability to use all five senses. Now, if the
>>character is blind, can she still take Clairsentience: Normal Sight? I'd
>>consider no as an answer, as the character as the physical lim blind.
>>Blind is blind, no
>>matter where you are.
>
>Hmmm. I'd say let the character see in the spirit plane - but lower the
>value of the 'blind' disadvantage by 5 points, as it is now a 'frequent'
>disad rather than an 'all the time' (i.e. Phys.Lim.: Blind in the Physical
>Plane [Frequent, Total])
>
>Which raises an interesting point. If I'm blind but have Spatial Awareness,
>is my 'Blind' Disad still worth the 'All the Time, Total' limitation? After
>all, I may not be able to see the world, but if I'm able to sense where
>objects and people are via Spatial Awareness, my blindness isn't all that
>limiting anymore, is it?
>
>Personally, though, I think things like blindness and deafness shouldn't be
>bought as Disadvantages, but as negative cost senses (Sight: Sense, Range,
>Discriminatory, Targeting; 35 points, so blindness is worth -35 points, just
>like 5 STR is worth -5 points).
>
>So trading in Sight (35) for Spatial Awareness (25) should be a net -10 cost
>to the character.
I see what you're suggesting, though there is still a couple of things with
spatial sense you can't do as well as sight. some things that instantly come
to mind: read anything typed, pick the difference between two people of the
same height/build, see colors, make it hard to track similar people with in
a combat.
-----
Charles T. Badger
From: boaters@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 23:51:32 -0400
Subject: Re: 4 color principles real super hero
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Filksinger wrote:
> > I've been thinking recently about some of the implied assumptions or
>
> > basic principles of typical superhero settings. I'm sure I've missed
>
> > some, but here's what I have so far.
> <snip>
> > Does anybody have any more principles and suggestions for how
> > varying them can create different settings ? Thoughts and comments
>
> > welcome. Curt Hicks
>
> "Crime is easy to find, anyone in a funny suit will find violent
> crime everywhere."
>
> If you think it is easy to find crime, try this sometime. On second
> thought, leave out the funny suit. It may make it too easy to find
> violent crime.<VBG>
>
> Filksinger
> "Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
As a side note, there was a real "super" in some city.
In the news, I forget the city, there was a report of the blue
avenger who went around in blue tights with a blue mask and painted
graffiti over with a nasty blue color. The city officials did not only
wish the best for this caped avenger but was willing to buy his paint as
long as it was not the nasty blue he had been using.
Darin
From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 02:18:35 -0400 (EDT)
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
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In a message dated 97-07-28 01:57:09 EDT, you write:
<< LH> Teleportation - the player has not bought any fixed or floating
LH> locations purchased. According to the BBB, if none are purchased, the
LH> teleportation relies on line of sight.
Clear line of sight does not require vision. It means that there is an
unobstructed path between source and target.
[...]
>>
While I'm not sure where you get your definition of Line of Sight, or whether
it applies here, Teleportation still requires the ability to see the target
destination. BBB pg 87 "A character can teleport to any spot he can see as
long as it's within his range." Then BBB pg 144 "When a character cannot
see his target location and doesn't have it memorized, any attempt to
Teleport is considered "blind". And blind ain't fun, let me tell ya.
As to her question... strictly following the rules, any teleport her
character couldn't see the target location would then be blind. However, if
she were to work something out with Clairsentience, that would give her the
required sight. I'm sure there are other senses that could be used to
compensate for the loss of eyesight, but as you say, if she effectively
circumvents the Disad, then it shouldn't be worth many, if any, points.
'Lynx
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 23:44:13 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Another Question
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Steven Clark wrote:
>
> Lisa Hartjes wrote:
> >
> >
> > The power enables you to vary your physical appearance (normal sight only)
> > to a different image - like an elven glamourie (sp?).
> >
> 2) Cosmetic Transformation (Self Only) - This works pretty well, you can
> change both your appearence and your voice, don't require
> a disguise skill roll, and no worries about end or per
> rolls to see through it.... Also keeps going if you're
> unconscious or stunned.
Not valid: HSR, p.88: "Transforms cannot be used by the character to
change himself: Use Shapeshift for this."
GMs who don't respect this stricture this are setting themselves up for
abuses. Specifically, buy a small cumulative transform and turn off your
Power Defense. This dominates Shapeshifting and Multiform in the vast
majority of cases.
Options that are allowable within standard rules are:
25 Images -5 to PER [25] 0 END [37 Active] No Range(-1/2)
24 Shapeshift to any humanoid [20] 0 END [30 Active] Visible(-1/4)
Obvious point-squeezing options are Extra Time, Concentration, etc.
>--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:26:29 +1000
From: Steve Clark <nahema@mailbox.uq.edu.au>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Another Question
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Robert A. West wrote:
>
> Steven Clark wrote:
>
>
> > 2) Cosmetic Transformation (Self Only) - This works pretty well, you can
> > change both your appearence and your voice, don't require
> > a disguise skill roll, and no worries about end or per
> > rolls to see through it.... Also keeps going if you're
> > unconscious or stunned.
>
> Not valid: HSR, p.88: "Transforms cannot be used by the character to
> change himself: Use Shapeshift for this."
>
That'll teach me to give suggestions without checking the BRB first!!!
Steve
From: Legionair@aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 07:11:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
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In a message dated 97-07-28 01:57:09 EDT, ratinox@peorth.gweep.net (Stainless
Steel Rat) writes:
<< LH> Teleportation - the player has not bought any fixed or floating
LH> locations purchased. According to the BBB, if none are purchased, the
LH> teleportation relies on line of sight.
Clear line of sight does not require vision. It means that there is an
unobstructed path between source and target. >>
I think the point of that rule is that you have to "see" where you want to
teleport to. Not that there's just nothing inbetween you and it.
(Teleporting past a glass wall, for example.)
Jason
X-Sender: wbandsis@mail.westco.net
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 08:50:42 -0400
From: Charles Badger <wbandsis@westco.net>
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
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At 07:11 07/28/97 -0400, Legionair@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 97-07-28 01:57:09 EDT, ratinox@peorth.gweep.net (Stainless
>Steel Rat) writes:
>
><< LH> Teleportation - the player has not bought any fixed or floating
> LH> locations purchased. According to the BBB, if none are purchased, the
> LH> teleportation relies on line of sight.
>
> Clear line of sight does not require vision. It means that there is an
> unobstructed path between source and target. >>
>
>I think the point of that rule is that you have to "see" where you want to
>teleport to. Not that there's just nothing inbetween you and it.
> (Teleporting past a glass wall, for example.)
Mainly for making sure the area you want to teleport to is clear of obstacles.
-----
Charles T. Badger
X-Sender: wbandsis@mail.westco.net
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 08:50:44 -0400
From: Charles Badger <wbandsis@westco.net>
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 02:18 07/28/97 -0400, Firelynx16@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 97-07-28 01:57:09 EDT, you write:
>
><< LH> Teleportation - the player has not bought any fixed or floating
> LH> locations purchased. According to the BBB, if none are purchased, the
> LH> teleportation relies on line of sight.
>
> Clear line of sight does not require vision. It means that there is an
> unobstructed path between source and target.
>
> [...]
> >>
>
>While I'm not sure where you get your definition of Line of Sight, or whether
>it applies here, Teleportation still requires the ability to see the target
>destination. BBB pg 87 "A character can teleport to any spot he can see as
>long as it's within his range." Then BBB pg 144 "When a character cannot
>see his target location and doesn't have it memorized, any attempt to
>Teleport is considered "blind". And blind ain't fun, let me tell ya.
>As to her question... strictly following the rules, any teleport her
>character couldn't see the target location would then be blind. However, if
>she were to work something out with Clairsentience, that would give her the
>required sight. I'm sure there are other senses that could be used to
>compensate for the loss of eyesight, but as you say, if she effectively
>circumvents the Disad, then it shouldn't be worth many, if any, points.
I'd still allow the disad but at half points since not all of losing one's
sight are compensated for.
-----
Charles T. Badger
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:34:24 -0400
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: Two Quick Questions
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> << LH> Teleportation - the player has not bought any fixed or floating
> LH> locations purchased. According to the BBB, if none are purchased, the
> LH> teleportation relies on line of sight.
>
> Clear line of sight does not require vision. It means that there is an
> unobstructed path between source and target. >>
IMO, "line of sight" means that the character must be able to perceive the
target point with a targeting sense (or, optionally, make a PER roll with a
non-targeting sense). I don't think it's actually defined anywhere in the BBB,
though.
Geoff
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:27:45 -0400 (EDT)
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> > * Super-types often have a hodgepodge of unrelated powers (eg
> > Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Superman/girl/boy, Wonder Woman)
>
> Nightcrawler's only actual power is teleportation, but I'll grant that his
> physical mutations don't seem to be in any way related to this.
>
He also has a limited invisibility power and supernatural agility.
> > * Super-powers are a fairly recent occurance (within the past 100 years)
>
> I can't think of any superhero worlds where this is the case, other than
> "one origin" worlds. It certainly seems to be a given that they're more
> common in modern times, though.
>
> > * Everyone with super-powers is in their late teens or 20's.
>
> Certainly not.
>
Well, _almost_ everybody. My laundry list was of things that are almost
always true in 4CC's, but there are always exceptions (thankfully!).
Although, I'm glad that there are more exceptions to my "rules" than
I at first thought.
-Eric
From: boaters@ix.netcom.com
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:40:12 -0400
Subject: 4-color campaign Something new
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Since the 4 color campaign thread has been going on I decided to add
this.
I have recently started my own (as well as first) 4 color campaign
in the Hero 4th edition rules. I am using the Fuzion background and all
of the regulars are in the world. It is based in Tampa, Fl so that the
players know the general area well and we do not have the constant
whining question of what is around.
The campaign has the following facts about it.
There is no point limit. I still have to approve everything, but as
long as it fits the conception and into this particular campaign I do
not mind.
I have been trying to get them to use cheesy lines like "your *** is
grass and I'm the lawnmower" and like statements. As we have just
started I told them that I did not mind if they used existing ones but
that in the future I want one specific one for each of the characters
that is theirs and theirs alone.
So far, they only know about two mafia groups in Tampa that are
bringing harm to innocents. (The mafia groups who are warring with each
other have recently been hiring supermercs to do their dirty work.)
Viper is also in town and they will soon learn that. The UNTIL and
GUARD are severely limited in this area, since until the unveiling of
the team there has been only one super hero in Tampa and he was
registered with them. Now there are some 28 heroes and heroines that
have joined the battle from the call of one man. Unfortunately, this
sudden beefing up of city security is going to attract a certain amount
of supervillians thinking that there is something to steal in this town
if there are so many supers trying to protect it.
The guy who put this all together was only thinking of revenge on the
mafia groups and did not consider the consequences of bringing so many
suppose to a new area.
Another interesting fact about the campaign is that it has no set
meeting time. I have designed it so that any group size from 1 to 12
can play at any time.
I have more campaign information of course, but my question is for your
suggestions. This is the first 4-color campaign that I have run in hero
and the less mistakes that I make the better.
Thanks,
Darin
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:02:12 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 07:01 PM 7/26/97 -0700, Darrin Kelley wrote:
> I buy an overwhelming amount of independant comics. And I spend alot
>of time in comic book stores. So I get a pretty broad view of what is
>out there. And, from a reader's point of view, it is getting extremely
>difficult to find good comics to read. It takes a considerable amount of
>effort and serious time commitment. Something that most casual readers
>don't have the time to so.
Well, as much as I dislike the modern Image School of comicbookdom, I
haven't had that much of a problem finding good comics. THUNDERBOLTS,
GENERATION X, the new ALPHA FLIGHT, anything with Spider-Man in it, and THE
INCREDIBLE HULK are all pretty decent; I also like DAYDREAMERS and HEROES
FOR HIRE, but I'd understand if people thought me weird for it.
> But the problem these days is: Flash sells. Style over substance
>sells. We have an entire generation of children who care more about
>image and flash than anything else. Because that is what the media force
>feeds them. This is just as true with the movies as it is in the comics.
Oh, please -- bitching about the ruined youth of America is about the only
thing MORE tired than the "it's a business, they have to" excuse.
> I grew up watching Bela Lugosi, Boris Karloff, the works of Ray
>Harryhausen, and the rest of what has been called the horror movie and
>science fiction classics. And I have gotten plenty of funny looks and
>strange comments because I have made occasional references to thoze
>classics. Mostly, those young viewers turn up their noses because the
>primitive special effects. And they miss out because they just don't see
>that most of those movies endure, not because of flash, but because of
>there was a huge eemphasis put on the story and the atmosphere.
>Something all too many modern move makers leave behind simply for flash
>and expensive special effects.
I grew up watching Lugosi, Karloff, Harryhausen, and the so-called classic
SF & horror. And I still like most of it. But frankly, a lot of the
criticism "young viewers" would dish out is DESERVED. The industry was
younger, and a lot of tricks of the trade just hadn't been developed yet.
At the time, DRACULA must have seemed chilling and horrid. Today, I find it
wooden and overstaged -- due, to no small degree, that it was filmed pretty
much as if it was a stage play with a camera in front. And remember, too,
that bad movies is hardly a modern phenomena. After all, it didn't take
long to get from the classics FRANKENSTEIN and THE WOLF MAN to the
colossally dull FRANKENSTEIN VS. THE WOLF MAN.
And frankly, there's nothing to say you can't have BOTH flash and
atmosphere. From STAR WARS to JURASSIC PARK, I think there's plenty of
material which has both the style and substance for greatness. One does not
preclude the other.
> Actually, I am trying to add to the solution. If I can manage to
> scrounge up the money. I have been working constantly to get my own
> independant comic book company off the ground. Not because of the money,
> but because I really love the material and would like to see it in
> print. But if it weren't up to my own standards, I wouldn't even try.
> Because, as a writer and an artist, I do care about the quality of what
> I produce. It is in my blood.
Hey, man, I wish you lots and lots of luck. If you ever get it kicked off,
feel free to plug away (at least to me) so I (and hopefully others here) can
keep an eye out for it.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:02:16 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: The State of Comics Today
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At 11:36 AM 7/27/97 -0400, William K Bushway wrote:
> Finally, I'd like to offer up some things that I think are "good"
>about comics today:
>
>- The comic book is no longer just about guys in tights. As a medium, it
>is being explored more than ever before. While I may not purchase some of
>these new efforts, it is deeply gratifying to know that I have the
>opportunity.
I find this painfully ironic, since the growing lack of a hold superheroes
has on comicbooks basically translates to a growing dearth of superheroes,
period. Comicbooks are basically the last and only refuge of the superhero;
you just can't sit down and pump out a brand-new superheroic-genre novel,
movie, or television series. (There've been attempts, mostly by Sam Raimi --
DARKMAN and M.A.N.T.I.S. come to mind ... but they don't seem to be really
successful attempts). Yes, the Big Two Point Five can make novels and
movies from their characters, but that's not the same, since the success of
those products is dependent on the continued success of the original
comicbooks.
I guess what I'm saying is, dammit, I don't WANT comicbooks to be a "medium"
instead of a genre -- If the "guy in tights" dies in comics, he dies period.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:02:19 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 08:13 PM 7/27/97 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>> 1. "Good" and "Evil" are tangible forces in the world, not just
>> abstract and arbitrary concepts.
>
>This is hardly a convention of the superhero genre as I know it. There's
>usually a fairly clear demarcation of who the good guys and bad guys are,
>but that's a far cry from Good and Evil existing as tangible forces.
Maybe I should use a different term than "tangible force", since it might be
misconstrued. What I'm saying is that in a four-color universe, characters
accept the existence of Good and Evil (the capital letters are important
:]), at least subconsciously, as something other than just meaningless labels.
>> 8. Like attracts like. Having superhuman powers will exponentially
>> increase your likelihood of encountering superhuman individuals.
>> Certain phenomena of reality can ONLY be percieved or encountered
>> by superhumans (such as Marvel's Eternity).
>
>If you want to be absurdly nitpicky, Dr. Strange isn't superhuman. At any
>rate, I'm sure if you searched hard enough you could find occasions where
>cosmic beings have interacted with honest-to-goodness normals.
1. Find me a normal human in the real world who can do what Doc Strange
does in a typical issue, and I will surrender the point that he "isn't
superhuman". And to stall further comment, yes, I consider Tony Stark
"superhuman" as well, since the Iron Man armor isn't likely to show up on
Beyond 2000 any time soon.
2. It's possible for a convention to be held in the breach rather than the
observance. Yes, if you looked hard enough, you can find occasions where
cosmic beings have interacted with normals -- but this seems WIERD, in the
context of a superhero universe. It's not something done in stride.
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:02:21 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 08:02 PM 7/27/97 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, Eric Burns wrote:
>
>> * Super-types often have a hodgepodge of unrelated powers (eg
>> Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Superman/girl/boy, Wonder Woman)
>
>Nightcrawler's only actual power is teleportation, but I'll grant that his
>physical mutations don't seem to be in any way related to this.
I think the prehensile tail and the ability to cling to smooth surfaces
count as "actual powers".
--
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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:02:23 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
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At 06:39 PM 7/25/97 -0400, Richard D. Bergstresser Jr. wrote:
>> Howard the Duck isn't a super-type -- he's just a normal, everyday kind
>> of person who just happens to be a duck. Let's not be judgemental,
>> okay? :]
>
>He has the power to grow feathers. Can you do that?
Sure. It's just purchased OAF Duck. :]
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
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Date: 28 Jul 1997 12:07:38 -0400
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>>>>> "F" == Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> writes:
F> While I'm not sure where you get your definition of Line of Sight,
A dictionary.
F> or whether it applies here, Teleportation still requires the ability to
F> see the target destination. BBB pg 87 "A character can teleport to any
F> spot he can see as long as it's within his range."
Whenver the BBB uses the word "see" one should automatically substitute the
word "perceive". Vision is not the only sense that may be used for
targeting, after all.
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From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:22:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: TV Teleporting (was Re: Two Quick Questions)
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In a message dated 97-07-28 07:29:36 EDT, you write:
<< << LH> Teleportation - the player has not bought any fixed or floating
LH> locations purchased. According to the BBB, if none are purchased, the
LH> teleportation relies on line of sight.
Clear line of sight does not require vision. It means that there is an
unobstructed path between source and target. >>
I think the point of that rule is that you have to "see" where you want to
teleport to. Not that there's just nothing inbetween you and it.
(Teleporting past a glass wall, for example.)
>>
This debate brings up a question I've had for a while about Teleport. Since
you're required to see your destination, what kind of Advantage or Linked
power should you buy to be able to teleport to a place depicted in an image
(painting, photograph, television screen, etc)? Would you have to get
Clairsentience and go off hunting down the place by yourself, which could
take days if you don't know where the place is, or would some kind of
advantage work better. Would Extradimensional work if you define all
reproductions as ways to a seperate plane of existance? I say all of this
assuming base Teleport won't work, since you're not looking at (seeing) the
place, but rather a reproduced image of the place. In other words, if you
were looking at a live sporting event on television and tried to teleport
there, you'd simply teleport to your television set, since you're not seeing
the place at all, but rather a little dot racing back and forth across your
screen that creates 30 frames of video a second, fooling your brain into
thinking it's seeing real movement. Has anyone handled this before?
Thanx in advance,
'Lynx
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:13:15 -0700 (PDT)
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From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
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At 10:31 AM 7/25/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote:
>* Super-types prefer to wear skin-tight costumes to armor or anything that
>might be practical or provide protection.
Most of the rest of your list has been effectively and intelligently
commented on already, but as for this one... I'm sure that this was
originally some sort of artistic license that the writers and artists were
taking back in the 1920s and 1930s when all of this stuff started, but it
turns out that there's actually a practical reason behind this, especially
for those supers with good intrinsic defenses and/or good ability to dodge.
Average clothing tends to restrict movement, circulation, and other
considerations. On the other hand, if what you're wearing moves with you,
you don't have to worry about that too much. (That's why the women in those
exerecise programs and videos wear spandex -- it's not to increase sales
through sex appeal, though I'm sure they don't mind that effect all that
much as a rule. It's also why the ancient Greeks did most of their athletic
events in the buff.)
So if Spider-Man had decided to wear blue jeans, a plaid shirt, and a
hockey mask instead of those good ol' red-and-blue skintights, he might not
be able to dodge bullets so easily (to allude to another thread on this topic).
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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:13:17 -0700 (PDT)
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From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Fishy Powers and Underwater Action!
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At 09:57 AM 7/25/97 -0700, Lizard wrote:
>At 10:51 AM 7/25/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote:
>>Hey, everybody! I have a two-fin... er, two-fold question to ask. Are
>>there any rules about underwater action/combat? What sorts of penalties
>>would be appropriate? And how would you counteract those penalties for an
>>aquatic hero (a la Aquaman, Submariner, etc.).
>>
>There was a supplement (short) devoted to that, 3rd edition, I think. It's
>packed at the moment. ("Scourge of the Seas"? "Attack From The Deep"?
>Something like that...)
>
>It had a killer dolphin, IIRC.
It was Scourge From the Deep, and most of the underwater rules were
adapted to 4th Edition and reprinted in Atlantis (under discussion).
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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:13:17 -0700 (PDT)
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From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Signs of the Apocalypse! (was: Mage)
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At 02:59 PM 7/17/97 -0400, Richard D. Bergstresser Jr. wrote:
>> A *successful* science fiction game from TSR?
>
>TSR who?
>Change it do D+D once again becomes an enjoyable and playable system.
Oh, *there's* another Sign of the Apolocalypse! A form of D&D is
released that is actually enjoyable and playable! ;-]
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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:13:18 -0700 (PDT)
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From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
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At 07:55 PM 7/27/97 -0400, Lisa Hartjes wrote:
>I have two situations I need some advice on. A player is submitting a
>character to one of my pbem's, and the character is blind due to an
>accident. Which normally wouldn't be a problem, but the player is also
>taking powers that require sight for them to work:
>
>Teleportation - the player has not bought any fixed or floating locations
>purchased. According to the BBB, if none are purchased, the teleportation
>relies on line of sight. The player does have Spatial Awareness. Would
>the Spatial Awareness be sufficient to allow a teleport? Also, is the
>range of the Spatial Awareness 10" or more? I can't find anything in the
>BBB to tell me what the range is.
This is largely a GM's call. Personally, I'd lean toward allowing the
character to target Teleportation with Spatial Awareness *only* if the
Spatial Awareness is Targeting.
>Clairsentience: The character has the ability to extend her senses into
>the spirit plane, with the ability to use all five senses. Now, if the
>character is blind, can she still take Clairsentience: Normal Sight? I'd
>consider no as an answer, as the character as the physical lim blind.
>Blind is blind, no
>matter where you are.
From what I can tell, Clairsentience does cost END to use. So the
character gets 25 points from being blind, and then spends 20 points on
Clairsentience for Normal Sight, resulting in getting 5 points, and the
ability to use sight at range but the necessity of spending END to use it at
all.
Hm. To me that sounds pretty balanced, or at the worst not too far out
of whack. I'd allow it to an extent, but make the player give a good
definition of what enabled the Clairsentience, allowing it to be Suppressed
or otherwise affected (possibly even Flashed) according to its Special Effect.
In short, it's really another GM's call.
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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:13:19 -0700 (PDT)
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From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
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At 09:48 PM 7/27/97 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>Hmmm. I'd say let the character see in the spirit plane - but lower the
>value of the 'blind' disadvantage by 5 points, as it is now a 'frequent'
>disad rather than an 'all the time' (i.e. Phys.Lim.: Blind in the Physical
>Plane [Frequent, Total])
>
>Which raises an interesting point. If I'm blind but have Spatial Awareness,
>is my 'Blind' Disad still worth the 'All the Time, Total' limitation? After
>all, I may not be able to see the world, but if I'm able to sense where
>objects and people are via Spatial Awareness, my blindness isn't all that
>limiting anymore, is it?
No, it isn't -- but you're already putting points into that fact when you
buy the Spatial Awareness (or Clairvoyance).
---
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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:58:50 -0700
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell)
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
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-> From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net Sat Jul 26 18:26:58 1997
-> The Japanese imports are really the cream of the crop of Japanese comics:
-> the US sees less than 1% of the total compics market there, so we here get
-> the best of the 5% that is not crap.
->
So, you consider "Sailor Moon" to be part of that top 1% (My comic shop has
Sailor Moon character books & merchandise, if not actual comics).
The comics that get translated get picked for a number of reasons: because the
rights to them are cheap, because they are easily understood (ie, have less cultural
baggage), occasionally because they are good, but usually because they sell,
and crap sells well in Japan just like it does here.
-Sam
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:32:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
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Bob Greenwade writes:
> This is largely a GM's call. Personally, I'd lean toward allowing the
> character to target Teleportation with Spatial Awareness *only* if the
> Spatial Awareness is Targeting.
>
Spatial awareness is automatically targeting (that's why it costs 25 points).
>>Clairsentience: The character has the ability to extend her senses into
>>the spirit plane, with the ability to use all five senses. Now, if the
>>character is blind, can she still take Clairsentience: Normal Sight? I'd
>>consider no as an answer, as the character as the physical lim blind.
>>Blind is blind, no matter where you are.
Take the limitation 'blind except on the astral plane'.
> From what I can tell, Clairsentience does cost END to use. So the
>character gets 25 points from being blind, and then spends 20 points on
>Clairsentience for Normal Sight, resulting in getting 5 points, and the
>ability to use sight at range but the necessity of spending END to use it at
>all.
No, that would be an error. Clairsentience allows you to use a sense
'indirect', so to speak, but you must have the sense in order to do so.
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:42:31 -0700 (PDT)
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From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
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At 11:32 AM 7/28/97 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>> This is largely a GM's call. Personally, I'd lean toward allowing the
>> character to target Teleportation with Spatial Awareness *only* if the
>> Spatial Awareness is Targeting.
>>
>Spatial awareness is automatically targeting (that's why it costs 25 points).
Argh. I had the BBB open in front of me then, as I do now. You're 100%
correct; I boo-booed.
>>>Clairsentience: The character has the ability to extend her senses into
>>>the spirit plane, with the ability to use all five senses. Now, if the
>>>character is blind, can she still take Clairsentience: Normal Sight? I'd
>>>consider no as an answer, as the character as the physical lim blind.
>>>Blind is blind, no matter where you are.
>
>Take the limitation 'blind except on the astral plane'.
>
>> From what I can tell, Clairsentience does cost END to use. So the
>>character gets 25 points from being blind, and then spends 20 points on
>>Clairsentience for Normal Sight, resulting in getting 5 points, and the
>>ability to use sight at range but the necessity of spending END to use it at
>>all.
>
>No, that would be an error. Clairsentience allows you to use a sense
>'indirect', so to speak, but you must have the sense in order to do so.
I'd call the point somewhat arguable, though given the exact wording of
the Clairsentience Power in the BBB, you probably have a stronger position
for your view than I do for mine.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
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>>>>> "SB" == Sam Bell <Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM> writes:
SB> So, you consider "Sailor Moon" to be part of that top 1% (My comic shop
SB> has Sailor Moon character books & merchandise, if not actual comics).
I have browsed through Mizzxine's first installment of the Seramun manga
(being a CLAMP fan I picked it up for Rayearth). It didn't suck, so I
suppose that is an extremely qualified "yes" -- for a "magical girls" story
it is better than most. Just because you do not like it does not mean it
is crap.
SB> The comics that get translated get picked for a number of reasons:
SB> because the rights to them are cheap, because they are easily
SB> understood (ie, have less cultural baggage), occasionally because they
SB> are good, but usually because they sell, and crap sells well in Japan
SB> just like it does here.
In order (mostly):
1: Easy enough for Viz; the company is Shogakukan's American arm. Not so
easy for Studio Proteus' publishers or Antarctic (which has gotten out of
that business).
2: Again, mostly a Viz thing but not exclusively. Some of the best-selling
translated manga have extremely intricate or mature plots. Then again,
Japanese folklore is a hobby of mine, so that probably makes me a bad judge.
4: Yeah, well, when was the last time you saw Appleseed or Gunnm action
figures? :)
3: Sturgeon's law, and "X manga". 'Nuff said.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: TV Teleporting (was Re: Two Quick Questions)
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>>>>> "F" == Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> writes:
F> This debate brings up a question I've had for a while about Teleport.
F> Since you're required to see your destination, what kind of Advantage or
F> Linked power should you buy to be able to teleport to a place depicted
F> in an image (painting, photograph, television screen, etc)?
There is none, because that is not Teleportation as define by the power.
How to actually go about doing so depends on the special effects of the
power. Extradimensional Movement might be one way; GM's dispensation on
FTL might be another.
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:07:58 +0000
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
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On 28 Jul 97 at 11:02, Bryan Berggren wrote:
>
> And frankly, there's nothing to say you can't have BOTH flash and
> atmosphere. From STAR WARS to JURASSIC PARK, I think there's plenty
> of material which has both the style and substance for greatness.
> One does not preclude the other.
I agree with you about style and substance, and I agree with you
about Star Wars, but Jurassic Park was successful primarily_ because_
of flash, not substance. The acting was nothing special, the
directing wasn't up to Spielberg's past great films, and its plot had
holes so big I could fly the Independence Day mothership through
them.
Just to talk about the plot holes alone, how much good can you say
about a movie where supposedly intelligent human beings keep T. Rex
and Velociraptors in pens that will let them out during the first
power outage? Where a man who just spent months carefully planning
complete automation ("write and debug two million lines of code")
for a theme park suddenly forgets the layout? Where a man who has
never seen a dinosaur except for their bones knows more about their
hunting tactics than a professional hunter who has studied live ones?
Star Wars, yes. Jurassic Park, no.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:15:44 +0000
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
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> Man, I'd kill for a properly done 'At the Mountains of Madness' -
> Elder Things, Shoggoths, Cyclopean cities, the whole nine yards. And
> no politically correct additions, dammit, like the brilliant and
> beautiful female scientist (who never dies). I wanna see
> Lovecraftian horrors kickin' butt!
Properly done, eh? Where the audience goes mad and begins worshiping
Things That Should Not BE?
> Would it sell, though?
No, but it might spell the end of civilization.<BEG>
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
X-Sender: wbandsis@mail.westco.net
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:24:18 -0400
From: Charles Badger <wbandsis@westco.net>
Subject: Re: TV Teleporting (was Re: Two Quick Questions)
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At 12:22 07/28/97 -0400, Firelynx16@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 97-07-28 07:29:36 EDT, you write:
>
><< << LH> Teleportation - the player has not bought any fixed or floating
> LH> locations purchased. According to the BBB, if none are purchased, the
> LH> teleportation relies on line of sight.
>
> Clear line of sight does not require vision. It means that there is an
> unobstructed path between source and target. >>
>
> I think the point of that rule is that you have to "see" where you want to
> teleport to. Not that there's just nothing inbetween you and it.
> (Teleporting past a glass wall, for example.)
> >>
>
>This debate brings up a question I've had for a while about Teleport. Since
>you're required to see your destination, what kind of Advantage or Linked
>power should you buy to be able to teleport to a place depicted in an image
>(painting, photograph, television screen, etc)? Would you have to get
>Clairsentience and go off hunting down the place by yourself, which could
>take days if you don't know where the place is, or would some kind of
>advantage work better. Would Extradimensional work if you define all
>reproductions as ways to a seperate plane of existance? I say all of this
>assuming base Teleport won't work, since you're not looking at (seeing) the
>place, but rather a reproduced image of the place. In other words, if you
>were looking at a live sporting event on television and tried to teleport
>there, you'd simply teleport to your television set, since you're not seeing
>the place at all, but rather a little dot racing back and forth across your
>screen that creates 30 frames of video a second, fooling your brain into
>thinking it's seeing real movement. Has anyone handled this before?
I can see this as also in the case of photos/paintings as making it more
likely for a blind TP mishap of teleporting into something/someone.
-----
Charles T. Badger
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:11:54 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
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At 11:02 AM 7/28/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>2. It's possible for a convention to be held in the breach rather than the
>observance. Yes, if you looked hard enough, you can find occasions where
>cosmic beings have interacted with normals -- but this seems WIERD, in the
>context of a superhero universe. It's not something done in stride.
>
what about captain universe? he usually interacts with normal folk. .
and does eating their planet/threatening their lives not count as interacting?
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:14:17 +1000
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Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
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At 11:02 AM 7/28/97 -0500, you wrote:
>At 07:01 PM 7/26/97 -0700, Darrin Kelley wrote:
>> I buy an overwhelming amount of independant comics. And I spend alot
>>of time in comic book stores. So I get a pretty broad view of what is
>>out there. And, from a reader's point of view, it is getting extremely
>>difficult to find good comics to read. It takes a considerable amount of
>>effort and serious time commitment. Something that most casual readers
>>don't have the time to so.
>
>Well, as much as I dislike the modern Image School of comicbookdom, I
>haven't had that much of a problem finding good comics. THUNDERBOLTS,
>GENERATION X, the new ALPHA FLIGHT, anything with Spider-Man in it, and THE
>INCREDIBLE HULK are all pretty decent; I also like DAYDREAMERS and HEROES
>FOR HIRE, but I'd understand if people thought me weird for it.
>
>> But the problem these days is: Flash sells. Style over substance
>>sells. We have an entire generation of children who care more about
>>image and flash than anything else. Because that is what the media force
>>feeds them. This is just as true with the movies as it is in the comics.
>
>Oh, please -- bitching about the ruined youth of America is about the only
>thing MORE tired than the "it's a business, they have to" excuse.
>
>> I grew up watching Bela Lugosi, Boris Karloff, the works of Ray
>>Harryhausen, and the rest of what has been called the horror movie and
>>science fiction classics. And I have gotten plenty of funny looks and
>>strange comments because I have made occasional references to thoze
>>classics. Mostly, those young viewers turn up their noses because the
>>primitive special effects. And they miss out because they just don't see
>>that most of those movies endure, not because of flash, but because of
>>there was a huge eemphasis put on the story and the atmosphere.
>>Something all too many modern move makers leave behind simply for flash
>>and expensive special effects.
>
>I grew up watching Lugosi, Karloff, Harryhausen, and the so-called classic
>SF & horror. And I still like most of it. But frankly, a lot of the
>criticism "young viewers" would dish out is DESERVED. The industry was
>younger, and a lot of tricks of the trade just hadn't been developed yet.
>At the time, DRACULA must have seemed chilling and horrid. Today, I find it
>wooden and overstaged -- due, to no small degree, that it was filmed pretty
>much as if it was a stage play with a camera in front. And remember, too,
>that bad movies is hardly a modern phenomena. After all, it didn't take
>long to get from the classics FRANKENSTEIN and THE WOLF MAN to the
>colossally dull FRANKENSTEIN VS. THE WOLF MAN.
>
>And frankly, there's nothing to say you can't have BOTH flash and
>atmosphere. From STAR WARS to JURASSIC PARK, I think there's plenty of
>material which has both the style and substance for greatness. One does not
>preclude the other.
>
>> Actually, I am trying to add to the solution. If I can manage to
>> scrounge up the money. I have been working constantly to get my own
>> independant comic book company off the ground. Not because of the money,
>> but because I really love the material and would like to see it in
>> print. But if it weren't up to my own standards, I wouldn't even try.
>> Because, as a writer and an artist, I do care about the quality of what
>> I produce. It is in my blood.
>
>Hey, man, I wish you lots and lots of luck. If you ever get it kicked off,
>feel free to plug away (at least to me) so I (and hopefully others here) can
>keep an eye out for it.
>
>--
>Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
>+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
>| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely. |
>+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
> Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
>
>
From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:20:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 67
In a message dated 97-07-28 12:55:42 EDT, you write:
<< F> While I'm not sure where you get your definition of Line of Sight,
A dictionary.
Then you need a new dictionary. You can establish LOS through a window, and
that window would make for an obstrusted path. Or am I missing something
here?
F> or whether it applies here, Teleportation still requires the ability to
F> see the target destination. BBB pg 87 "A character can teleport to any
F> spot he can see as long as it's within his range."
Whenver the BBB uses the word "see" one should automatically substitute the
word "perceive". Vision is not the only sense that may be used for
targeting, after all.
>>
I agree with this statement, as most targeting senses should be able to be
used to teleport, however, it does not back up your original
statement...."Clear line of sight does not require vision. It means that
there is an unobstructed path between source and target."... as there are
several senses that can get around or through obstructed paths to the
target... Clairsentience or N-Ray vision to name a couple. All I was saying
was that the determining factor for Teleport to work without blind penalties
is that the character needs to be able to see the target (through whatever
sense), not whether there is a clear unobstructed path between the character
and the target. If I've misunderstood you, I apologize.
Later,
'Lynx
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:24:12 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
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doh! this time i'll write some extra stuff, ok? *g*
At 11:02 AM 7/28/97 -0500, you wrote:
>At 07:01 PM 7/26/97 -0700, Darrin Kelley wrote:
>> I buy an overwhelming amount of independant comics. And I spend alot
>>of time in comic book stores. So I get a pretty broad view of what is
>>out there. And, from a reader's point of view, it is getting extremely
>>difficult to find good comics to read. It takes a considerable amount of
>>effort and serious time commitment. Something that most casual readers
>>don't have the time to so.
>
>Well, as much as I dislike the modern Image School of comicbookdom, I
>haven't had that much of a problem finding good comics. THUNDERBOLTS,
>GENERATION X, the new ALPHA FLIGHT, anything with Spider-Man in it, and THE
>INCREDIBLE HULK are all pretty decent; I also like DAYDREAMERS and HEROES
>FOR HIRE, but I'd understand if people thought me weird for it.
>
i'd add a bunch of dc titles, but they don't seem to stock them anymore :-<~
>> But the problem these days is: Flash sells. Style over substance
>>sells. We have an entire generation of children who care more about
>>image and flash than anything else. Because that is what the media force
>>feeds them. This is just as true with the movies as it is in the comics.
>
>Oh, please -- bitching about the ruined youth of America is about the only
>thing MORE tired than the "it's a business, they have to" excuse.
>
people only buy what's available- and most of that's crud.
>> I grew up watching Bela Lugosi, Boris Karloff, the works of Ray
>>Harryhausen, and the rest of what has been called the horror movie and
>>science fiction classics. And I have gotten plenty of funny looks and
>>strange comments because I have made occasional references to thoze
>>classics. Mostly, those young viewers turn up their noses because the
>>primitive special effects. And they miss out because they just don't see
>>that most of those movies endure, not because of flash, but because of
>>there was a huge eemphasis put on the story and the atmosphere.
>>Something all too many modern move makers leave behind simply for flash
>>and expensive special effects.
*yawn* corny special effects? hows about corny dialogue, and corny out of date
roles for women and so on?
>
>I grew up watching Lugosi, Karloff, Harryhausen, and the so-called classic
>SF & horror. And I still like most of it. But frankly, a lot of the
>criticism "young viewers" would dish out is DESERVED. The industry was
>younger, and a lot of tricks of the trade just hadn't been developed yet.
>At the time, DRACULA must have seemed chilling and horrid. Today, I find it
>wooden and overstaged -- due, to no small degree, that it was filmed pretty
>much as if it was a stage play with a camera in front. And remember, too,
>that bad movies is hardly a modern phenomena. After all, it didn't take
>long to get from the classics FRANKENSTEIN and THE WOLF MAN to the
>colossally dull FRANKENSTEIN VS. THE WOLF MAN.
>
yes, and most classicly bad movies are old. . . .
>And frankly, there's nothing to say you can't have BOTH flash and
>atmosphere. From STAR WARS to JURASSIC PARK, I think there's plenty of
>material which has both the style and substance for greatness. One does not
>preclude the other.
>
star wars, i agree, jp, huh? was there athmosphere i missed?
>> Actually, I am trying to add to the solution. If I can manage to
>> scrounge up the money. I have been working constantly to get my own
>> independant comic book company off the ground. Not because of the money,
>> but because I really love the material and would like to see it in
>> print. But if it weren't up to my own standards, I wouldn't even try.
>> Because, as a writer and an artist, I do care about the quality of what
>> I produce. It is in my blood.
>
and they're all uncreative scum? despite being hired to do that stuff full time?
>Hey, man, I wish you lots and lots of luck. If you ever get it kicked off,
>feel free to plug away (at least to me) so I (and hopefully others here) can
>keep an eye out for it.
>
hey! what about my 2008 date fer hero 5? i demand plugging privliges! *lol*
>--
>Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
>+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
>| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely. |
>+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
> Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
>
>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:52:42 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>Well, as much as I dislike the modern Image School of comicbookdom, I
>haven't had that much of a problem finding good comics. THUNDERBOLTS,
>GENERATION X, the new ALPHA FLIGHT,
Ulch. I bought issue one of the 'new' Alpha Flight, and boy am I sorry I
did. It was awful. No, it was wretched. Hideous. Pathetic. <shudder,
shudder, shudder>
>I grew up watching Lugosi, Karloff, Harryhausen, and the so-called classic
>SF & horror. And I still like most of it. But frankly, a lot of the
>criticism "young viewers" would dish out is DESERVED.
<snip!>
Granted. While the use of atmosphere and story do somewhat make up for the
poor production values (by todays standards), it really isn't enough in most
cases. Think of what they could do if they took the best elements of
yesterday and today and re-made these films. I'll point out that the most
recent 'Dracula' had some incredibly goofy stuff in it - like that armor on
Drac early in the movie - and the deliberate attempt at 'nostalgic' special
effects (storm sequences, shadow stuff) fell flat. Though I did take a pass
on the most recent Frankenstein. How was it? Anyone?
Man, I'd kill for a properly done 'At the Mountains of Madness' - Elder
Things, Shoggoths, Cyclopean cities, the whole nine yards. And no
politically correct additions, dammit, like the brilliant and beautiful
female scientist (who never dies). I wanna see Lovecraftian horrors kickin'
butt!
Would it sell, though?
>And frankly, there's nothing to say you can't have BOTH flash and
>atmosphere. From STAR WARS to JURASSIC PARK, I think there's plenty of
>material which has both the style and substance for greatness. One does not
>preclude the other.
True. How about resurrecting War of the Worlds, as it was originally
written? Plenty of flash potential there (walkers, aliens, heat rays,
rockets, gas) and a good story to boot.
Sigh. But the classics never get done justice...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone
else's house?"
-NHS #56
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:06:36 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "F" == Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> writes:
>
> F> While I'm not sure where you get your definition of Line of Sight,
>
> A dictionary.
>
Or the rules for any honest-to-goodness wargame. Or an infantryman's
manual. Or....
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.3
> Charset: noconv
>
> iQCVAwUBM9zDxp6VRH7BJMxHAQFeSQQAyFtY/6FFSvlp6r7Tj+UYFS91WyK0/Db3
> NOjKVXyZtb/dHFeMTTKbsiKZDDp6rljGuSFERX2823Fd/Qa7CjJuPW8P1D7eAujd
> V9BuPOM1EVVU/87aD9P/Zh3S12WrKa12vBt/aFV5NgY+yREGZdomx306jUpo0zc6
> DjXzzPeV7Ns=
> =g91J
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> --
> Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
> PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
> \
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: "Stephen B. Mann" <sm6439@cnsvax.albany.edu>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:23:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Spell-like abilities
Newsgroups: october.hero
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herolist wrote:
>
> From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
> Subject: Re: Spell-like abilities
> Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero)
> To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> Stephen B. Mann wrote:
> >
> >
> > 1) give the s-la people a limitation (suppressable)
> > or
> > 2) give the other group an advantage (not suppressable)
>
> Why not use the book advantage designed for this purpose? Difficult to
> Dispel(+1/4) is described on p.94. It affects both Dispel and Suppress
> by doubling the effective Active Points.
Because the "not-suppressables" truly can't be suppressed by magic.
It's not that they're really tough to suppress, they just *can't* be
suppressed by magic. Now, a really really powerful may be able to
engineer conditions under which the power doesn't work, but that's not
the same thing.
--
Stephen B. Mann sm6439@cnsvax.albany.edu
SUNY Learning Network http://sln1.esc.edu
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: "Stephen B. Mann" <sm6439@cnsvax.albany.edu>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:27:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Spell-like abilities
Newsgroups: october.hero
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> From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
> > 1) give the s-la people a limitation (suppressable)
> > or
> > 2) give the other group an advantage (not suppressable)
>
> Well, simply declare the two groups to be different special effects,
> then make the suppress in question a suppress vs. one of those special
> effects and not the other. Just because the two types of powers are
> mystical doesn't necessarily mean they have the same special effect.
Hmmmm. It's probably easier this way, but ...
The problem is that of the two groups, the "not-suppressables" are
more attractive to players. I'd like to give a bribe to entice some
people to play the "suppressable" type, that's why I thought about
giving a limitation to reduce the cost slightly.
--
Stephen B. Mann sm6439@cnsvax.albany.edu
SUNY Learning Network http://sln1.esc.edu
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:49:59 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 10:50 PM 7/28/97 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
>Visit the Holocaust Museum sometime and see if you really think that Good
>and Evil are merely arbitrary and/or meaningless. Do you really think
>that slavery in America was just another cultural choice? Can anyone
>honestly believe that Pol Pot's killing fields were just an expression of
>a cultural idea, neither more no less valid than any other?
You're preaching to the converted, sir. *I* don't believe in Good and Evil
as arbitrary things, but there are plenty of people in this world who do.
==
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:05:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> Most of the rest of your list has been effectively and intelligently
> commented on already, but as for this one... I'm sure that this was
> originally some sort of artistic license that the writers and artists were
> taking back in the 1920s and 1930s when all of this stuff started, but it
> turns out that there's actually a practical reason behind this, especially
> for those supers with good intrinsic defenses and/or good ability to dodge.
> Average clothing tends to restrict movement, circulation, and other
> considerations. On the other hand, if what you're wearing moves with you,
I suppose this could be true. Though to be honest, it I could lift a
small car I don't think my clothes would impede my movement all that much.
As for the artistic license of skin tight clothes, recall reading in a
book on comics that this started simply because it was easier and faster
to draw skin tights then normal clothes.
TokyoMark
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:24:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> Well, as much as I dislike the modern Image School of comicbookdom, I
> haven't had that much of a problem finding good comics. THUNDERBOLTS,
> GENERATION X, the new ALPHA FLIGHT, anything with Spider-Man in it, and THE
> INCREDIBLE HULK are all pretty decent; I also like DAYDREAMERS and HEROES
> FOR HIRE, but I'd understand if people thought me weird for it.
And even Image can put out good books. Check out Strangers in Paradise.
Other generally good comics books worth catching include Astro City (I
started reading this after the last 'All modern comics are crap' thread,
it's well worth it) and Kabuki. I used to read Shi, but it's gone
downhill badly, starting around the time the storyline became secondary to
spinning off other characters to take advantage of the popularity.
> > But the problem these days is: Flash sells. Style over substance
> >sells. We have an entire generation of children who care more about
> >image and flash than anything else. Because that is what the media force
> >feeds them. This is just as true with the movies as it is in the comics.
Actually, I'm glad Flash sells. That is another comicbook I enjoy.
(sorry, bad joke).
>
> Oh, please -- bitching about the ruined youth of America is about the only
> thing MORE tired than the "it's a business, they have to" excuse.
Agreed.
> I grew up watching Lugosi, Karloff, Harryhausen, and the so-called classic
> SF & horror. And I still like most of it. But frankly, a lot of the
> criticism "young viewers" would dish out is DESERVED. The industry was
> younger, and a lot of tricks of the trade just hadn't been developed yet.
> At the time, DRACULA must have seemed chilling and horrid. Today, I find it
> wooden and overstaged -- due, to no small degree, that it was filmed pretty
> much as if it was a stage play with a camera in front. And remember, too,
> that bad movies is hardly a modern phenomena. After all, it didn't take
> long to get from the classics FRANKENSTEIN and THE WOLF MAN to the
> colossally dull FRANKENSTEIN VS. THE WOLF MAN.
Very well articulated. Movies can be classics because of the impact they
had, and yet still not have the same impact now because of the way things
change. Not just special effects, but the way the movies have developed.
TokyoMark
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:34:31 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
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At 10:50 PM 7/28/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Bryan Berggren wrote:
>>
>Visit the Holocaust Museum sometime and see if you really think that Good
>and Evil are merely arbitrary and/or meaningless. Do you really think
>that slavery in America was just another cultural choice? Can anyone
>honestly believe that Pol Pot's killing fields were just an expression of
>a cultural idea, neither more no less valid than any other?
>
>Cultural Relativism is a useful academic construct; it is madness as
>either a personal or cultural philosophy.
>
really? what about homosexuality? or adultery? or use of drugs? go to japan and ask them about how they treat kiddie-porn, something we all find abhorent.
hell, if i was alive back then in ww2, and i could have wiped out the SS in one go, i would- but is that any better than more 'innocent' massacres?
>--
><------------------------------------------------------->
>Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
>Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
>http://www.erols.com/robtwest
>
>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:50:18 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-UID: 70
Bryan Berggren wrote:
>
> At 08:13 PM 7/27/97 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote:
> >> 1. "Good" and "Evil" are tangible forces in the world, not just
> >> abstract and arbitrary concepts.
> >
> >This is hardly a convention of the superhero genre as I know it. * * *
> . . . What I'm saying is that in a four-color universe, characters
> accept the existence of Good and Evil (the capital letters are important
> :]), at least subconsciously, as something other than just meaningless labels.
Visit the Holocaust Museum sometime and see if you really think that Good
and Evil are merely arbitrary and/or meaningless. Do you really think
that slavery in America was just another cultural choice? Can anyone
honestly believe that Pol Pot's killing fields were just an expression of
a cultural idea, neither more no less valid than any other?
Cultural Relativism is a useful academic construct; it is madness as
either a personal or cultural philosophy.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 02:39:13 -0400 (EDT)
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-UID: 77
In a message dated 97-07-28 23:32:30 EDT, you write:
<< Or the rules for any honest-to-goodness wargame. Or an infantryman's
manual. Or.... >>
His definition of Line of Sight was an "unobstructed path between source and
target." Any transparent, or possibly even translucent, object between the
source and target will provide for an obstructed path, but one can still make
a LOS on the target and teleport to it, bypassing the obstruction. Again, if
I'm misinterpreting him, I apolize for wasting all those little ones and
zeros.
Later,
'Lynx
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." <richBLOCKberg@erols.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 03:06:01 -0400
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
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herolist wrote:
>
> From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
> Subject: Re: 4 color principles
> To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> At 06:39 PM 7/25/97 -0400, Richard D. Bergstresser Jr. wrote:
> >> Howard the Duck isn't a super-type -- he's just a normal, everyday kind
> >> of person who just happens to be a duck. Let's not be judgemental,
> >> okay? :]
> >
> >He has the power to grow feathers. Can you do that?
>
> Sure. It's just purchased OAF Duck. :]
>
Shouldn't that be a Follower?
And it's kinda like saying "I can shoot bullets!!! As long as I have a gun."
--
Yes, I've finally resorted to a Spam block.
To respond, remove the letters BLOCK from my address.
Sorry for the inconvenience.
Rich.
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 06:45:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
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On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, Filksinger wrote:
>
> > Man, I'd kill for a properly done 'At the Mountains of Madness' -
> > Elder Things, Shoggoths, Cyclopean cities, the whole nine yards. And
> > no politically correct additions, dammit, like the brilliant and
> > beautiful female scientist (who never dies). I wanna see
> > Lovecraftian horrors kickin' butt!
>
> Properly done, eh? Where the audience goes mad and begins worshiping
> Things That Should Not BE?
There's a thought for a movie...
> > Would it sell, though?
>
> No, but it might spell the end of civilization.<BEG>
Speaking of such things. Did anyone else every see John Carpenter's "In
the Mouth of Madness"? Now there was a whacked out Lovecraftian horror
film! And if you have seen it, imagine this... I was one of only *two*
people in the whole theater... (the other was a friend of mine who took me
to see it.)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:36:41 +0000
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
Priority: normal
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On 29 Jul 97 at 15:34, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
> At 10:50 PM 7/28/97 -0700, you wrote:
> >Cultural Relativism is a useful academic construct; it is madness as
> >either a personal or cultural philosophy.
> >
>
> really? what about homosexuality? or adultery? or use of drugs?
All condemned by some societies, and accepted by others. Are you
saying that whether or not they are good, bad, or morally neutral is
_entirely_ cultural? That being homosexual is all right, if your
culture says so, _and_ killing homosexuals is all right, if your
culture says so?
>go
> to japan and ask them about how they treat kiddie-porn, something we
> all find abhorent.
How does the acceptability of kiddie-porn in another society prove
that cultural relativism is right? I would think that would be an
argument in the other direction, that some things are wrong no matter
what the culture they are in says. Are you actually saying that
kiddie-porn is fine, so long as you are in Japan, and wrong, so long
as you are in the US?
>hell, if i was alive back then in ww2, and i
> could have wiped out the SS in one go, i would- but is that any
> better than more 'innocent' massacres?
Absolutely. Killing people who you are at war with, killing people
who are committing atrocities, thereby stopping them, yes, this is
better than killing men, women, and children, often in slow and
painful ways, because you need a scapegoat to hold up your sick self
image of being a member of a "master race".
Obviously, you agree, or you wouldn't want to kill the SS in the
first place. Either that, or you are claiming that you are as bad as
the SS, except that you didn't have the opportunity to kill the
people you wanted to kill. Are you claiming to be, potentially, as
evil as the SS, or that it is OK for the Nazis to murder all those
people? I am afraid that I don't see your point.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:43:52 +0000
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
Priority: normal
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On 29 Jul 97 at 13:02, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> "F" == Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> writes:
>
> F> Then you need a new dictionary. You can establish LOS through a
> window, F> and that window would make for an obstrusted path. Or am
> I missing F> something here?
>
> Yes, you are. The window does not obstruct vision but it does
> obstruct line of sight.
Yes, normally that would be true. There are some questions about
this, such as mental powers, though. The BBB needs to be much clearer
as to the difference between requiring LOS, requiring sensing via a
targeting sense, and simply sensing the target.
> And yes, Champions is in agreement with this: if you want to use a
> power through the window without breaking it you need Indirect.
Champions says you can't teleport into a house through the living
room window, unless you break it? Teleport was the power we started
discussing, as I recall.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 06:49:03 -0700
X-To: Multiple recipients of Hero <hero-l@october.com>
Subject: Re: Spell-like abilities
X-Listname: Hero
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Stephen B. Mann wrote:
>
> herolist wrote:
> >
> > From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
> >
> > Stephen B. Mann wrote:
> > >
> > > 1) give the s-la people a limitation (suppressable)
> > > or
> > > 2) give the other group an advantage (not suppressable)
> >
> > Why not use the book advantage designed for this purpose? Difficult to
> > Dispel(+1/4) is described on p.94. It affects both Dispel and Suppress
> > by doubling the effective Active Points.
>
> Because the "not-suppressables" truly can't be suppressed by magic.
OIC. Then, the proper thing is to limit Dispel and Suppress as "Only
Affects Magic(-1/2)". This BTW leaves you Dispel and Suppress as ways to
construct mundane Fire Extinguishers, etc. If you prefer, you could
define all Dispels and Suppresses as "Only affect similar Special
Effect(-0)" by campaign design. It depends on how expensive you want
those powers to be, and this is a campaign-balance question only you, as
GM, can answer. All the above options are, IMHO, allowable within
standard rules.
>
> --
>
> Stephen B. Mann sm6439@cnsvax.albany.edu
> SUNY Learning Network http://sln1.esc.edu
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:41:16 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>> Man, I'd kill for a properly done 'At the Mountains of Madness' -
>> Elder Things, Shoggoths, Cyclopean cities, the whole nine yards. And
>> no politically correct additions, dammit, like the brilliant and
>> beautiful female scientist (who never dies). I wanna see
>> Lovecraftian horrors kickin' butt!
>
>Properly done, eh? Where the audience goes mad and begins worshiping
>Things That Should Not BE?
Um, excuse me, but a whole lot of people have read 'At the Mountains of
Madness' and not gone insane/begun worshipping eldritch horrors. Like me
<drool, gibber>. That said, giving everyone a free tab of LSD with their
ticket would make for interesting viewing :-).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone
else's house?"
-NHS #56
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:37:32 -0400
X-Sender: absga@elbertonga.com
From: Patrick Barden <absga@elbertonga.com>
Subject: Sacrifice move
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I had something come up in a game that I am not sure of how to handle.
Hero sees Villian aim at Bystander. Hero throws himself between Villian and
Bystander, potentially taking the hit himself, and saving Bystander. How do
you determine the success of something like this? Who needs to roll what to
determine the outcome of this situation.
The best way I could think of was having Hero make a movethrough on Villians
attack.
Any better ideas?
Thanks
Patrick B.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
Mail-Copies-To: never
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "F" == Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> writes:
F> Then you need a new dictionary. You can establish LOS through a window,
F> and that window would make for an obstrusted path. Or am I missing
F> something here?
Yes, you are. The window does not obstruct vision but it does obstruct
line of sight.
And yes, Champions is in agreement with this: if you want to use a power
through the window without breaking it you need Indirect.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
\ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:15:01 -0400 (EDT)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> > At 06:39 PM 7/25/97 -0400, Richard D. Bergstresser Jr. wrote:
> > >> Howard the Duck isn't a super-type -- he's just a normal, everyday kind
> > >> of person who just happens to be a duck. Let's not be judgemental,
> > >> okay? :]
> > >
> > >He has the power to grow feathers. Can you do that?
> >
> > Sure. It's just purchased OAF Duck. :]
> >
>
> Shouldn't that be a Follower?
>
Only if the duck is loyal.
-Eric
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Moral Relativism (was: 4 color principles)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:37:58 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> >Visit the Holocaust Museum sometime and see if you really think that Good
> >and Evil are merely arbitrary and/or meaningless. Do you really think
> >that slavery in America was just another cultural choice? Can anyone
> >honestly believe that Pol Pot's killing fields were just an expression of
> >a cultural idea, neither more no less valid than any other?
> >
> >Cultural Relativism is a useful academic construct; it is madness as
> >either a personal or cultural philosophy.
> >
>
> really? what about homosexuality? or adultery? or use of drugs? go to
> japan and ask them about how they treat kiddie-porn, something we all
> find abhorent.
> hell, if i was alive back then in ww2, and i could have wiped out the
> SS in one go, i would- but is that any better than more 'innocent'
> massacres?
>
To say that people do not always agree on what exactly constitutes right
and wrong, good and evil, is to state the obvious. To conclude from this
that there is no good or evil, except in the subjective opinions of
individuals, is not just foolish but potentially destructive. Please do
not expect us to believe that whether the Holocaust was wrong is a matter
of opinion.
-Eric
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:48:17 -0400
From: seleena@fred.net (E. David Miller)
Subject: Re: Sacrifice move
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>I had something come up in a game that I am not sure of how to handle.
>
>Hero sees Villian aim at Bystander. Hero throws himself between Villian and
>Bystander, potentially taking the hit himself, and saving Bystander. How do
>you determine the success of something like this? Who needs to roll what to
>determine the outcome of this situation.
>
>The best way I could think of was having Hero make a movethrough on Villians
>attack.
>
>Any better ideas?
>
>Thanks
>
>Patrick B.
Try having the hero attempt a block, even though it is or may be a
ranged attack. The idea being that if the block is successful, the hero
takes the hit against his defenses, whilst the bystander survives (unless
the knockback is high...)
David Miller
___________________________________________________________________________
| seleena@bigdog.-> |There are 3 temporal dimensions, just as there are 3 |
| ->fred.net |spatial; T, the passage of time; Tau, the changes in |
|-------------------|possible outcomes/decisions; Teh, the alternate bases|
| E. David Miller |of reality. Thus, all that ever has been dreamed, |
|-------------------|IS, somewhen. And somewhen, we are all simply a |
|Faith, and Dreams. |dream. Or, by perspective, a nightmare. |
|___________________|_____________________________________________________|
X-Sender: jjerles@pacificnet.net
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:05:34 -0700
From: John Jerles <jjerles@pacificnet.net>
Subject: Re: Sacrifice move
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:37 PM 7/29/97 -0400, Patrick Barden wrote:
>I had something come up in a game that I am not sure of how to handle.
>
>Hero sees Villian aim at Bystander. Hero throws himself between Villian and
>Bystander, potentially taking the hit himself, and saving Bystander. How do
>you determine the success of something like this? Who needs to roll what to
>determine the outcome of this situation.
>
>The best way I could think of was having Hero make a movethrough on Villians
>attack.
>
>Any better ideas?
>
>Thanks
>
>Patrick B.
I would just do something a little simpler. Treat it as an extrodinary
dodge manuver, add +3 - +5 DCV to the victim (depending on the size of the
hero) and if the villan rolls above the DCV + Modifier, the villan still
hits the happless norm and the hero has yet another death on his bloody
hands. If the villan rolls just the DCV without the modifier than the Hero
gets to die gloriously saving the norm until the next phase when the norm
will die and the hero would have died a pointless death.
Happy and cheery as always,
John
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:05:52 -0700
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Sacrifice move
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Patrick Barden wrote:
>
> I had something come up in a game that I am not sure of how to handle.
>
> Hero sees Villian aim at Bystander. Hero throws himself between
> Villian and
> Bystander, potentially taking the hit himself, and saving Bystander.
> How do
> you determine the success of something like this? Who needs to roll
> what to
> determine the outcome of this situation.
>
> The best way I could think of was having Hero make a movethrough on
> Villians
> attack.
Not having the BBB in front of me, I can't verify that this rule exists
anymore. In Champions II they introduced the Dive for Cover rule which
could be used for diving out of an area effect or to dive in front of an
attack. It was a Dex roll at -1 for each game inch between the hero and
where he was diving to.
-Mark
X-Sender: ghost@softfarm.com
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:08:11 -0500
From: ghost@softfarm.com (Bryce Berggren)
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 7
At 10:52 PM 7/28/97 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>Well, as much as I dislike the modern Image School of comicbookdom, I
>>haven't had that much of a problem finding good comics. THUNDERBOLTS,
>>GENERATION X, the new ALPHA FLIGHT,
>
>Ulch. I bought issue one of the 'new' Alpha Flight, and boy am I sorry I
>did. It was awful. No, it was wretched. Hideous. Pathetic. <shudder,
>shudder, shudder>
Hmm ... on one hand, I know exactly what you mean--there was something terribly,
horribly /wrong/ about the way the comic read. On the other hand,
a) I missed Puck badly, and it was great to see him in action again,
b) The dialogue and characterization didn't feel wrong (at least for Puck,
Heather,
and the new people--I have a feeling there's a reason why Madison, Guardian,
and Sasquatch were all messed up), just the plot they were involved in.
c) the terrible horrible wrongness seemed planned, and likely to be explained.
Of course, I can't find any issues BESIDES #1, so I guess I'll never know. :(
>Sigh. But the classics never get done justice...
On this note, I refer you to the trailer for STARSHIP TROOPERS ... where none
of the Troopers seem to be wearing power-armor, the whole friggin' point of
the book!!! AIIIIIGHHH!!
H. G.
X-Sender: ghost@softfarm.com
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:08:13 -0500
From: ghost@softfarm.com (Bryce Berggren)
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-UID: 5
At 12:24 PM 7/29/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>At 11:02 AM 7/28/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>At 07:01 PM 7/26/97 -0700, Darrin Kelley wrote:
>>> I buy an overwhelming amount of independant comics. And I spend alot
>>>of time in comic book stores. So I get a pretty broad view of what is
>>>out there. And, from a reader's point of view, it is getting extremely
>>>difficult to find good comics to read. It takes a considerable amount of
>>>effort and serious time commitment. Something that most casual readers
>>>don't have the time to so.
>>
>>Well, as much as I dislike the modern Image School of comicbookdom, I
>>haven't had that much of a problem finding good comics. THUNDERBOLTS,
>>GENERATION X, the new ALPHA FLIGHT, anything with Spider-Man in it, and THE
>>INCREDIBLE HULK are all pretty decent; I also like DAYDREAMERS and HEROES
>>FOR HIRE, but I'd understand if people thought me weird for it.
>i'd add a bunch of dc titles, but they don't seem to stock them anymore :-<~
I'll do it for you, then ... FLASH, Grant Morrison's work on JLA (me,
talking up Morrison? Miracles never cease), AQUAMAN, and (though I usually
lump them in the same atomic-waste tread-carefully zone as the xbooks) the
occasional Batman title.
>>I grew up watching Lugosi, Karloff, Harryhausen, and the so-called classic
>>SF & horror. And I still like most of it. But frankly, a lot of the
>>criticism "young viewers" would dish out is DESERVED. The industry was
>>younger, and a lot of tricks of the trade just hadn't been developed yet.
>>At the time, DRACULA must have seemed chilling and horrid. Today, I find it
>>wooden and overstaged -- due, to no small degree, that it was filmed pretty
>>much as if it was a stage play with a camera in front. And remember, too,
>>that bad movies is hardly a modern phenomena. After all, it didn't take
>>long to get from the classics FRANKENSTEIN and THE WOLF MAN to the
>>colossally dull FRANKENSTEIN VS. THE WOLF MAN.
>>
>
>yes, and most classicly bad movies are old. . . .
I humbly submit that if Ed Wood had ever had a decent budget and actors who
were professionally trained, even /he/ could do better than Heaven's Gate,
Ishtar, North, Leonard Part 6, etc.
>>> Actually, I am trying to add to the solution. If I can manage to
>>> scrounge up the money. I have been working constantly to get my own
>>> independant comic book company off the ground. Not because of the money,
>>> but because I really love the material and would like to see it in
>>> print. But if it weren't up to my own standards, I wouldn't even try.
>>> Because, as a writer and an artist, I do care about the quality of what
>>> I produce. It is in my blood.
>>
>
>and they're all uncreative scum? despite being hired to do that stuff full
time?
Obviously it would be over-generalizing to say they're /all/ uncreative scum.
And for the record, I've always been a bit ticked off when people claim that
indies are the solution to problems in the Big Two (Image isn't really on the
same paradigm as DC and Marvel). There's an emotional attachment to the
universes
that have been created here, and the above "solution" is like a friend
telling me
I should watch hockey because the Cubs suck.
But ... yes, some of the people working in comics today don't register
perceptibly
on the creativity meter, regardless ofthe fact they're being paid to do it.
Heck,
Liefeld lasted /how/ long before moving to Image? And if his recent stint on
Avengers
wasn't convincing enough, this Cap/"Fighting American" BS should prove it
once and
for all.
H. G.
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:19:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Sacrifice move
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Use an abort Dive To Cover Maneuver to have the character
interpose herself. This is a heroic maneuver and should be fairly
easy to carry off if you're willing to soak the damage. Curt
>
> I had something come up in a game that I am not sure of how to handle.
>
> Hero sees Villian aim at Bystander. Hero throws himself between Villian and
> Bystander, potentially taking the hit himself, and saving Bystander. How do
> you determine the success of something like this? Who needs to roll what to
> determine the outcome of this situation.
>
> The best way I could think of was having Hero make a movethrough on Villians
> attack.
>
> Any better ideas?
>
> Thanks
>
> Patrick B.
>
>
>
Subject: Re: Sacrifice move
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 14:26:23 -0400
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On 7/29/97 12:37 PM, Patrick Barden (absga@elbertonga.com) Said:
>Hero sees Villian aim at Bystander. Hero throws himself between Villian and
>Bystander, potentially taking the hit himself, and saving Bystander. How do
>you determine the success of something like this? Who needs to roll what to
>determine the outcome of this situation.
We have usually done this as a move through attack on a hex, and you must
succeed by more than the original attack succeeded by
The popularity of Windows surged in 1995, when |
Microsoft began shipping Windows 95, which | David A. Fair
included many innovations that the Macintosh | SDS International
had introduced 10 years earlier. | dfair@sdslink.com
- Reuters, Friday, July 18, 1997 |
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:29:01 -0700
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net>
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
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jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>
>Well, as much as I dislike the modern Image School of comicbookdom, I
>haven't had that much of a problem finding good comics. THUNDERBOLTS,
>GENERATION X, the new ALPHA FLIGHT, anything with Spider-Man in it, and THE
>INCREDIBLE HULK are all pretty decent; I also like DAYDREAMERS and HEROES
>FOR HIRE, but I'd understand if people thought me weird for it.
I agree with you on THUNDERBOLTS, somewjat with THE INCREDIBLE HULK,
but not with any of the others. Count me as sort of jaded, but I'm not
willing to put up with Marvel and their lack of quality and dirty
marketing tactics anymore.
Although I will get some pretty strong stares for this, I am going
to actually defend some of the material put out by IMAGE. I have been
reading WildC.A.T.S since the beginning. And I thing that, recently, it
has had some of the strongest storylines I have read in years. Gen13,
although it has its share of ups and downs, has been very attentive with
its subplots. DV8 has one of the strongest continuities in comics today.
And Witchblade is one of the best comics I have ever read, period. Since
Liefeld was booted out on his ass, the quality of material put out by
Image has improved considerably.
But even then, I still have to look mostly in the independant
section of the comics store to find the majority of the things I like.
The mainsteam books I read are by far the minority. I tend to find a
higher amount of story quality and work put into those independant
comics than I find anywhere else.
>Oh, please -- bitching about the ruined youth of America is about the only
>thing MORE tired than the "it's a business, they have to" excuse.
In general, the youth of America has become ruined because they
don't think for themselves. But, instead, let the media and style do
their thinking for them. Which *is* a sad commentary on the state of the
youth of America. But it can be changed by exposing them to other
alternatives. I know this for a fact, because I have done it. But it is
something that takes individual effort.
>I grew up watching Lugosi, Karloff, Harryhausen, and the so-called classic
>SF & horror. And I still like most of it. But frankly, a lot of the
>criticism "young viewers" would dish out is DESERVED. The industry was
>younger, and a lot of tricks of the trade just hadn't been developed yet.
>At the time, DRACULA must have seemed chilling and horrid. Today, I find it
>wooden and overstaged -- due, to no small degree, that it was filmed pretty
>much as if it was a stage play with a camera in front. And remember, too,
>that bad movies is hardly a modern phenomena. After all, it didn't take
>long to get from the classics FRANKENSTEIN and THE WOLF MAN to the
>colossally dull FRANKENSTEIN VS. THE WOLF MAN.
It was never my intention to sugar-coat the existance of bad movies
in any era. Plenty of them were and always will be around. It's a fact
of life. I point to BILLY THE KID VS. DRACULA as an example of one of
the worst.
But others, like THE BEAST FROM 20,000 FATHOMS are as strong today
as they were the date of their release. And, sure, the special effects
were hokey. But the movie producers of the time made do with what they
had and produced miracles. Which is something that should be
appreciated, instead of just eing brushed aside because of the lack of
color and modern special effects.
Alien, Jurassic Park, and the upcoming Godzilla film are old
fashoined monster movies with nothing but modern visuals to beef them up
abit. Otherwise, they aren't any different than the hundreds of giant
monster movies that have been done in the past.
>And frankly, there's nothing to say you can't have BOTH flash and
>atmosphere. From STAR WARS to JURASSIC PARK, I think there's plenty of
>material which has both the style and substance for greatness. One does not
>preclude the other.
True. But it is equally possible to become spoiled by modern special
effects and flash. Which is exactly what has happened with most kids
I've talked to. Those old movies are the for-runners of what we see
today. And they shouldn't be brushed aside simply because they don't
measure up to todays visuals and todays technology. Doing so is like
shooting your grandfather simply because he is old.
>Hey, man, I wish you lots and lots of luck. If you ever get it kicked off,
>feel free to plug away (at least to me) so I (and hopefully others here) can
>keep an eye out for it.
I am not giving up any details of what I am working on yet. No sense
in getting people all hot and bothered over something that is still up
in the air. The most I can really share right now is: I am alot closer
now to being able to produce my comics now than I was a month ago. The
huge difference being, that I actually have a computer system up to the
job. And the funding to do that job is pretty close to being a reality.
All I can do is work at it one step at a time. Each step closer I make I
savor as a victory.
But when I am ready to announce them, this list will be the first
group I go to. Because it has been this group that has been the most
useful and the most encouraging in any of the projects that I have done.
X-Sender: piapps@cyberspace.org (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:11:36 -0700
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com>
Subject: Re: Sacrifice move
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At 12:37 PM 7/29/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I had something come up in a game that I am not sure of how to handle.
>
>Hero sees Villian aim at Bystander. Hero throws himself between Villian and
>Bystander, potentially taking the hit himself, and saving Bystander. How do
>you determine the success of something like this? Who needs to roll what to
>determine the outcome of this situation.
>
>The best way I could think of was having Hero make a movethrough on Villians
>attack.
>
>Any better ideas?
I usually require a the character to perform a block. However, if the
character wasn't really watching out for the bystanders, I might require a
dex roll, since this is sort of a split second maneuver, not something the
hero was planing to do. Also, if the block succeeds, the hero is hit by the
attack, obviously.
-Nic
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| naneiden@iswest.com |
| Justice, Like Lightning, Thunderbolts! |
| http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/thunder.html |
| Costumed Heroines |
| http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/index.html |
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <gdighton@mail.elite.net>
From: "Garth Dighton" <gdighton@elite.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:45:04 +0000
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
Priority: normal
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On 28 Jul 97 at 8:50, Charles Badger wrote:
> At 02:18 07/28/97 -0400, Firelynx16@aol.com wrote:
> >In a message dated 97-07-28 01:57:09 EDT, you write:
> >
> ><< LH> Teleportation - the player has not bought any fixed or floating
> > LH> locations purchased. According to the BBB, if none are purchased, the
> > LH> teleportation relies on line of sight.
> >
> > Clear line of sight does not require vision. It means that there is an
> > unobstructed path between source and target.
> >
> > [...]
> > >>
> >
> >While I'm not sure where you get your definition of Line of Sight, or whether
> >it applies here, Teleportation still requires the ability to see the target
> >destination. BBB pg 87 "A character can teleport to any spot he can see as
> >long as it's within his range." Then BBB pg 144 "When a character cannot
> >see his target location and doesn't have it memorized, any attempt to
> >Teleport is considered "blind". And blind ain't fun, let me tell ya.
> >As to her question... strictly following the rules, any teleport her
> >character couldn't see the target location would then be blind. However, if
> >she were to work something out with Clairsentience, that would give her the
> >required sight. I'm sure there are other senses that could be used to
> >compensate for the loss of eyesight, but as you say, if she effectively
> >circumvents the Disad, then it shouldn't be worth many, if any, points.
>
> I'd still allow the disad but at half points since not all of losing one's
> sight are compensated for.
> -----
I was building Drizz't Do'Urden for a Champions campaign on my brand
new Heromaker program early last week, and when I got to building his
blindfighting capacity, I gave him Targeting Hearing, as this seemed
to fit the character best. Drizz't isn't blind, but he often fights
in total darkness. It seems to me that if a character is blind, but
has compensating advantages like Targeting Hearing, then the
disadvantage should count for less in Hero. Ordinarily, Blind is
an All The Time, Fully Disabling Physical Limitation, but with
advantages that compensate, it is not so disabling, so it would be an
All The Time, Slightly Disabling advantage (15 points). A Blind
character, even with Targeting Hearing, still can't read, see colors,
etc.
With even further advantages, such as the Marvel Comics Daredevil,
Blind becomes worth even less points. Daredevil's blindness rarely
affects him, because all of his other senses are at such high levels.
One of the nice things about the Hero disadvantage system is that it
allows you to tailor the point cost of Physical and Psychological
limitations to a particular character, based on how much it actually
limits that character
Garth Dighton
gdighton@elite.net
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:48:29 -0700
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
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Darrin Kelley wrote:
> But even then, I still have to look mostly in the independant
> section of the comics store to find the majority of the things I like.
> The mainsteam books I read are by far the minority. I tend to find a
> higher amount of story quality and work put into those independant
> comics than I find anywhere else.
>
> >Oh, please -- bitching about the ruined youth of America is about the
> only thing MORE tired than the "it's a business, they have to" excuse.
>
> In general, the youth of America has become ruined because they
> don't think for themselves. But, instead, let the media and style do
> their thinking for them. Which *is* a sad commentary on the state of
> the youth of America. But it can be changed by exposing them to other
> alternatives. I know this for a fact, because I have done it. But it
> is something that takes individual effort.
I'd just like to point out it's not just the "youth of America". Just
look at history and see how many generations and nations let others do
their thinking for them. It's a cop out to blame one group.
I'd go into an actual rant, but to quote Handy; "Read a Book!"
-Mark
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:17:02 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
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At 03:34 PM 7/29/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>>Visit the Holocaust Museum sometime and see if you really think that Good
>>and Evil are merely arbitrary and/or meaningless. Do you really think
>>that slavery in America was just another cultural choice? Can anyone
>>honestly believe that Pol Pot's killing fields were just an expression of
>>a cultural idea, neither more no less valid than any other?
>>
>>Cultural Relativism is a useful academic construct; it is madness as
>>either a personal or cultural philosophy.
>>
>
>really? what about homosexuality? or adultery? or use of drugs? go to japan
and ask them about how they treat kiddie-porn, something we all find abhorent.
>hell, if i was alive back then in ww2, and i could have wiped out the SS in
one go, i would- but is that any better than more 'innocent' massacres?
Could we please get through this discussion without it devolving into yet
another asinine "my philosophy is inherently better than yours simply
because I say it is" argument?
---
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:17:05 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Sacrifice move
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At 12:37 PM 7/29/97 -0400, Patrick Barden wrote:
>I had something come up in a game that I am not sure of how to handle.
>
>Hero sees Villian aim at Bystander. Hero throws himself between Villian and
>Bystander, potentially taking the hit himself, and saving Bystander. How do
>you determine the success of something like this? Who needs to roll what to
>determine the outcome of this situation.
>
>The best way I could think of was having Hero make a movethrough on Villians
>attack.
>
>Any better ideas?
This is what I find in the BBB, near the end, under Dive for Cover,
starting with the second paragraph (bracketed inserts are mine):
"Diving for Cover can also be used by a character [Hero] to protect
another character [Bystander] from an attack. The character [Hero] must
Dive for Cover to a point between the attacker [Villain] and the victim
[Bystander]. The Dive for Cover Roll is attempted normally [a DEX Roll at
-1/1" of distance]. If successful, the character who Dove for Cover [Hero]
takes full damage for the attack -- no Attack Roll is necessary. If the
Dive for Cover Roll fails, the attack has a normal chance to hit the target
[Bystander]."
Hope that clears it up. :-]
---
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:17:06 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:02 PM 7/29/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "F" == Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> writes:
>
>F> Then you need a new dictionary. You can establish LOS through a window,
>F> and that window would make for an obstrusted path. Or am I missing
>F> something here?
>
>Yes, you are. The window does not obstruct vision but it does obstruct
>line of sight.
>
>And yes, Champions is in agreement with this: if you want to use a power
>through the window without breaking it you need Indirect.
Not to speak for other abilities, but this statement doesn't apply to
Mental Powers. BBB, page 55, sixth paragraph:
"Mental Powers can be used to attack any character within the mentalist's
line of sight. The Powers are not stopped by any conventional barriers; for
example, a mentalist with N-Ray Vision could use his Ego Blast to attack a
target through a wall, so long as the mentalist could detect the target.
Mental Powers have no range modifiers."
(The third sentence is, of course, immaterial; the second is the one of
interest.)
---
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library
From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:24:27 -0400 (EDT)
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Sacrifice move
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In a message dated 97-07-29 13:09:17 EDT, you write:
<< I had something come up in a game that I am not sure of how to handle.
Hero sees Villian aim at Bystander. Hero throws himself between Villian and
Bystander, potentially taking the hit himself, and saving Bystander. How do
you determine the success of something like this? Who needs to roll what to
determine the outcome of this situation.
The best way I could think of was having Hero make a movethrough on Villians
attack.
Any better ideas?
Thanks
Patrick B.
>>
This is covered under Dive for Cover in BBB pg 155... "Diving for Cover can
also be used by a character to protect another character from an attack. The
character must Dive for Cover to a point between the attacker and the victim.
The Dive for Cover is attempted normally."
Later,
'Lynx
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 18:19:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Wild Cards characters now on Web
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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For those of you who are interested, I've just finished uploading *all* my
adpations of the GURPS Wild Cards characters to my website (except Cpt
Trips, who is being revised).
You can find them at:
http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 29 Jul 1997 18:28:38 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>> And yes, Champions is in agreement with this: if you want to use a power
>> through the window without breaking it you need Indirect.
BG> Not to speak for other abilities, but this statement doesn't apply to
BG> Mental Powers. BBB, page 55, sixth paragraph:
Mental Powers are specific exceptions to a lot of rules. They work
somewhat differently than other powers, which is why they are lumped
together under those blanket exceptions. This does not make my statement
false.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
\ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 01:12:20 +0000
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
Priority: normal
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On 29 Jul 97 at 13:08, Bryce Berggren wrote:
> At 10:52 PM 7/28/97 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote:
> >Sigh. But the classics never get done justice...
>
> On this note, I refer you to the trailer for STARSHIP TROOPERS ...
> where none of the Troopers seem to be wearing power-armor, the whole
> friggin' point of the book!!! AIIIIIGHHH!!
I really wanted the armor, that's true. I'm ticked off that it wasn't
included. However, as a long-time fan of Heinlein, and a fan of the
book, I can say that the armor was _not_ the point of the book. The
point of the book was two-fold:
1) Just as some democracies have required a person to be a landowner,
or a recognized professional to vote, and others have required
universal conscription, Heinlein wanted to make a suggestion that,
rather than universal conscription, that service (95% _not_
military), could be a requirement _to vote_ (as it was in the Greek
democracies). Not as open as our system, but doesn't require
conscription, which Heinlein called "slave armies".
2) That as men who go out and get killed to protect those at home,
the PBI ("Poor, bloody infantry") deserve recognition for their
sacrifice and heroism.
Unfortunately, the interviews with the movie's creators and stars
shows that they are completely clueless about number 1, and are
probably not going to do that much better with number 2. And, to top
it off, they don't have the armor.
Filksinger
A Heinlein fan who does _not_ expect to like the movie.
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 01:12:20 +0000
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
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On 29 Jul 97 at 19:45, Garth Dighton wrote:
> I was building Drizz't Do'Urden for a Champions campaign on my brand
> new Heromaker program early last week, and when I got to building
> his blindfighting capacity, I gave him Targeting Hearing, as this
> seemed to fit the character best. Drizz't isn't blind, but he often
> fights in total darkness. It seems to me that if a character is
> blind, but has compensating advantages like Targeting Hearing, then
> the disadvantage should count for less in Hero. Ordinarily, Blind is
> an All The Time, Fully Disabling Physical Limitation, but with
> advantages that compensate, it is not so disabling, so it would be
> an All The Time, Slightly Disabling advantage (15 points). A Blind
> character, even with Targeting Hearing, still can't read, see
> colors, etc.
This was stated outright in the older Hero books. In fact,
compensated blindness was the example given.
However, it wasn't All The Time, Slightly Disabling. It was
Infrequently, Fully. The reasoning was that it only interfered with
the character Infrequently (because of the character's targeting
sense), but what he couldn't do ( see colors, read, etc.) were Fully
disabled. He didn't have a slightly disabled ability to see colors,
he was Fully disabled at seeing colors.
I think that Hero needs to clarify this one more. I truly wish that,
once they create a clear explanation (such as the need for
targeting senses with mental powers, from third edition), that they
would make certain that their future editions included those details,
_or_ make it clear that they had changed their minds. If the points
needed clarification the first time, they still need clarification in
later editions.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 01:12:20 +0000
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
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On 29 Jul 97 at 21:11, Robert A. West wrote:
> Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> The question of what "unconventional" barriers stop mental powers is
> never answered, but it is reasonable and common to treat Mental
> powers as any other Indirect power: stopped by Hardened barriers,
> possibly subject to special effect.
Possibly. However, if that is the case, why are some bases in Hero
System books (The secret garden of the Master, for example) bought
with Ego Defense?
I have always considered the "can be stopped by Hardened defenses" as
applying strictly to those power which don't have an appropriate
defense. Teleportation, for example, cannot properly be stopped by
any power; as written, it has no points of effect, and thus doesn't
apply properly to most defenses. The same goes for other such powers.
Mental powers, however, apply to Mental Defense, and thus don't need
the Hardened defense rule.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
X-Originating-IP: [206.186.110.45]
From: "Rob Leuschen" <battleguy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Help! Polymorphic Shapeshifter
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 18:13:29 PDT
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Hey guys and gals, I need some help. I'm trying to make a
shapeshifter....now I seem to be making it more and more complicated
everytime I change things and read more rules.
This guy is a bioconstruct....if I can possible do so, I want him to
actually have _NO_ actual real shape. That is, he can be anyone or
anything, but has no shape of his own. However, this seems to bring to
many things into play.
Namely, how do I do even the normal characteristics then? You can't
exactly put them into a "power pool".
I want to actually be able to "turn into", not just mimic, people if
need be. Thus, I can turn into a security guard, and have his shape,
mannerisms, and total package so to speak. Now this I can do easily I
think, with skills such as mimicry, liguist, stuff like universal
translator and ambidexterity, and the powers of shapeshifting, and the
like.
However, I also want to be able to turn into animals, mythalogical
beings, and even something like a rock. Now, this guy is no brick or
energy projector or mentalist. He just is something normal....with a
twist I'm hoping. For example, if he needs strength and armor, he turns
into a rhino, and gets from a power pool of some kind the powers of
armor, extra str, and perhaps HA, +con, and other such SUITABLE things.
Now these aren't exactly going to raise him up to brick like str and
such, I want limits. Now on the other end, (rhino uses density and
growth too), I want to be an insect too....so shrink, etc. will be
applied.
Now, how do I do this? Make a power pool like a gadget pool - but my
"body" is actually what changes? There are limits remember.
Oh, I've got 300pts to play with.
The more I look at this, the more confused I get. Maybe I'm thinking to
much. :)
Any ideas? I'll respond back often to fill out the concept if need be.
For powers to be other animals/insect/objects (objects that don't _DO_
anything - I can't become a gun for instance) I'm looking at things like
flight for birds, armor for thick skin, running, swimming, clinging,
swinging (monkey?), extra limbs, shrink-growth-density, tunneling,
discriminatory sense, and anything else that could help. Only the
applicable powers that define the creature/thing can be used at one
time. That is, if I am a rhino, I don't get the power of flight.
(He) has full lifesupport, as he's not really alive, though he can mimic
breathing and such of course.
Don't forget, if possible, I don't want him to have a body - He always
is _anything_ around you - thats part of the story, background,
limitations and such.
Is this possible guys?
Deuce.
aka Gundam.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 01:18:02 +0000
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
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On 29 Jul 97 at 23:27, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> BTW: I've been tinkering on my newest character adaption for the
> list: Mobile Infantry for Hero. These guys look like they should be
> able to cream just about any Champions power armor goon...
>
I did it once, for an adventure. The idea was that two armored
warriors from the far future get dumped in the heroes laps, and they
have to figure out what to do with them.
Even though the suits were supposed to be run down and jury-rigged
(they were each over 200 years old, with the civilizations that
created them lasting no more than 20 of those years), they still
nearly trashed the team. And that was only one of them.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:27:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
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On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Bryce Berggren wrote:
> On this note, I refer you to the trailer for STARSHIP TROOPERS ... where none
> of the Troopers seem to be wearing power-armor, the whole friggin' point of
> the book!!! AIIIIIGHHH!!
There's more to the book Starship Troopers than the power armor. I'd say
the point of the book is "why do I fight?". It also is recognizably a
product of the late 50s, with the Bugs a handy stand in for the Russians.
But I digress. I too stated: "What! No armor?" when I saw the previews.
The effect I got was the movie Aliens with bigger bugs and more troopers.
BTW: I've been tinkering on my newest character adaption for the list:
Mobile Infantry for Hero. These guys look like they should be able to
cream just about any Champions power armor goon...
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:57:52 -0400 (EDT)
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
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In a message dated 97-07-29 18:54:42 EDT, you write:
<< F> Then you need a new dictionary. You can establish LOS through a
window,
F> and that window would make for an obstrusted path. Or am I missing
F> something here?
Yes, you are. The window does not obstruct vision but it does obstruct
line of sight.
And yes, Champions is in agreement with this: if you want to use a power
through the window without breaking it you need Indirect. >>
First, a person teleporting through a window does not 'go through' the window
at all. BBB pg 87..."A character with this Movement Power can disappear from
one point and appear at another, without traveling in between." So there is
no need for Indirect.
Second, it seems that you're contradicting yourself. Previously, you said,
and I agreed, that in order to teleport, all you needed to do was see, or as
you stated, perceive, your target. And this is something you can obviously
do through a window. In fact, in order for that window to prevent you from
teleporting to the other side of it, one would need to buy the window with
Hardened defenses. I would be interested in where you read that Champions
agreed with your interpretation. I go back again to BBB p87... "A character
can teleport to any spot he can see as long as it's within his range."
I think the telling point for line of sight would be to compare the same
scenario to a mentalist using mental powers on a target on the other side of
a window. BBB pg 55... "Mental Powers can be used to attack any character
within the mentalist's line of sight. The Powers are not stopped by any
conventional barriers; for example, a mentalist with N-Ray Vision could use
his Ego Blast to attack a target through a wall, so long as the mentalist
could detect the target." This example clearly shows that even though there
is a barrier between the character and the target, line of sight is in fact
established, not obstructed, and the power is able to be used, contrary to
what you're trying to say.
Another random thought... according to your definition, a sniper would never
be able to establish line of sight on his/her target... since he/she is
looking through not one, but two panes of glass in the gun's scope.
Later
'Lynx
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 21:11:55 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>
> >>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
> >> And yes, Champions is in agreement with this: if you want to use a power
> >> through the window without breaking it you need Indirect.
>
> BG> Not to speak for other abilities, but this statement doesn't apply to
> BG> Mental Powers. BBB, page 55, sixth paragraph:
>
> Mental Powers are specific exceptions to a lot of rules. * * *
Mental Powers are inherently Indirect. The definition of Indirect (HSR
p.95) states:
"Mental Powers ... need not buy this advantage."
Furthermore, the description of Mental Powers (HSR p.55) states:
"Mental Powers ... are not stopped by any conventional barriers."
The question of what "unconventional" barriers stop mental powers is
never answered, but it is reasonable and common to treat Mental powers
as any other Indirect power: stopped by Hardened barriers, possibly
subject to special effect.
Teleportation is also inherently Indirect. The rules (p.87 HSR) state:
"A character cannot teleport through a barrier which has
been bought with the Power Advantage Hardened, unless he
has bought the Teleportation with the Power Advantage
Armor Piercing."
This clearly implies that one *can* teleport through non-hardened
barriers (i.e. a window). This is precisely the effect of Indirect, so
most people I know say that Teleport is inherently Indirect.
Although I can find no place that *states* that Clairsentience is treated
similarly, most people I know treat it as functionally Indirect --
stopped by hardened barriers.
Semantically, LOS refers to an unobstructed line of sight and of fire.
Accordingly, LOS is not blocked by a transparent barrier that will not
hinder the intended projectile. Bulletproof glass denies LOS to a
sharpshooter, but not to a howitzer, and probably not to a laser.
Conventional smoke does not deny LOS to IR-equipped troops.
The term "line of sight" WRT mental powers is, IMHO, misleading. An
infantryman who can see the target via an overhead camera does not have
LOS, but a mentalist can use Telepathy on a target he sees via a camera
(Clairsentience IAF, concealed). The rule should be stated, "If the
attacker can perceive the target with a targeting sense, then the target
may be attacked with no range modifier."
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:29:39 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
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>>> the new ALPHA FLIGHT,
>>
>>Ulch. I bought issue one of the 'new' Alpha Flight, and boy am I sorry I
>>did. It was awful. No, it was wretched. Hideous. Pathetic. <shudder,
>>shudder, shudder>
>
>Hmm ... on one hand, I know exactly what you mean--there was something
>terribly,
>horribly /wrong/ about the way the comic read. On the other hand,
>
>a) I missed Puck badly, and it was great to see him in action again,
Agreed, love the Puckster.
>b) The dialogue and characterization didn't feel wrong (at least for Puck,
>Heather,
>and the new people--I have a feeling there's a reason why Madison, Guardian,
>and Sasquatch were all messed up), just the plot they were involved in.
Jeez, I almost vomited when I saw what they did to Sasquatch. And Manbot has
got to be the single DUMBEST character design I've ever seen for a superhero
group. Another thing that got me was the 'new' suit they handed Heather.
'Controls geo-thermal forces' - uh-huh. And just what was wrong with the
classic suit? The old 'electromagnetic' suit at least had a reasonable
explanation behind it. Just how do you go about controlling 'geo-thermal
forces' with technology (this kind of handwaving is lots easier with mutant
powers or magic).
AND WHERE WAS THE FREAKING MAGIC??? That set Alpha Flight _apart_, the
strong presence of magical characters (Snowbird, Shaman, Talisman). Right
out the window.
>c) the terrible horrible wrongness seemed planned, and likely to be explained.
Not a good plan, making everything seem so awful right from the first issue.
Makes me want to follow the next six issues, yeah! (NOT!)
>Of course, I can't find any issues BESIDES #1, so I guess I'll never know. :(
I saw the cover of #2, looks like The Master is back (a good character, but
I'm sure they screwed him up too...).
>>Sigh. But the classics never get done justice...
>
>On this note, I refer you to the trailer for STARSHIP TROOPERS ... where none
>of the Troopers seem to be wearing power-armor, the whole friggin' point of
>the book!!! AIIIIIGHHH!!
Actually, ST boiled down to a lecture on moral pragmatism (eg. public
whipping is an appropriate punishment for crimes b/c it works as a
deterrant, expansion through conquest and extermination is right b/c if we
didn't do it we'd be wiped out or enslaved, military service as a basis for
citizenship and voting is right b/c people in military service understand
about sacrifice and responsibility to one another), but I agree, power armor
was too essential to the book to just rip it out...:-(
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone
else's house?"
-NHS #56
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:26:02 +0000
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
Priority: normal
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On 30 Jul 97 at 8:07, Earl Kwallek wrote:
>
> Actually Heinlein was not actually in favor of any of these
> things,
> except maybe the concept that if you want full citizenship then you
> should have served in some "Civil Service" position (ie:Military -
> whatever)...
> I have it straight from the Man himself (many years ago), that he
> wrote
> the book Starship Troopers, to convince the "hippies" that he was
> not somesort of GURU...they started camping out on his front door
> after "Stranger in a Strange Land", the idea being to create a book
> so sickeningly Pro-Establishment that they would all leave- guess
> what, it worked!
Starship Troopers was published two years before Stranger. The
"Heinlein as guru" phenomenon took years to build, and Heinlein
stated on more than one occassion that it took him completely by
surprise.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 03:52:05 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Fishy Powers and Underwater Action!
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I said, then Eric said;
> > I bought 'Atlantis' for the underwater stuff and was impressed enough
> > that I decided to use several elements of the book's "Atlantis world
> > view" to actually bring Atlantis into my campaign. It has a lot of
> > underwater-specific rules and options (I can post a few of the main 'new
> > powers/abilities if'n you'd like)
>
> I would be grateful for anything you'd be willing to post, thanks 8^)
> Mostly, I'm interested in what penalties Captain Strong-guy, the dry-land
> hero, would take while fighting underwater.
>
> -Eric
Just wanted to drop a note to let you know I haven't forgotten about
posting some of Atlantis's rules, but I have been irritatingly busy with
various and sundry life emergemcies lately, and haven't even kept up
with my mail. I should be able to post them in a couple of days (max)
if you're still interested....
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
From: Legionair@aol.com
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 07:06:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
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In a message dated 97-07-29 18:54:42 EDT, ratinox@peorth.gweep.net (Stainless
Steel Rat) writes:
<< And yes, Champions is in agreement with this: if you want to use a power
through the window without breaking it you need Indirect. >>
"Indirect Teleport." That has to be one of the funniest warping of the rules
that I've read in a long time. Talk about wasting points for no reason.
Jason
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 05:55:53 PDT
From: "Salmon,David" <David_Salmon@mc.xerox.com>
Subject: Re: Sacrifice move
Posting-date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:00:35 -0500
Priority: normal
Hop-count: 3
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Hey guys ... I can't believe nobody knows of this!!! Try looking at
Missle Deflection. It explains exactly how to do this type of block
for someone else. Not having the book in front of me, you basically
buy the base power and then add x points to be able to use it at range
to block against attacks aimed at another character. This is not a
great explanation but just look up the power. Hope this helps!
...Dave S.
----------
From: owner-champ-l@omg.org
To: champ-l@omg.org
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Sacrifice move
Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 2:24PM
In a message dated 97-07-29 13:09:17 EDT, you write:
<< I had something come up in a game that I am not sure of how to handle.
Hero sees Villian aim at Bystander. Hero throws himself between Villian and
Bystander, potentially taking the hit himself, and saving Bystander. How do
you determine the success of something like this? Who needs to roll what to
determine the outcome of this situation.
The best way I could think of was having Hero make a movethrough on Villians
attack.
Any better ideas?
Thanks
Patrick B.
>>
This is covered under Dive for Cover in BBB pg 155... "Diving for Cover can
also be used by a character to protect another character from an attack. The
character must Dive for Cover to a point between the attacker and the victim.
The Dive for Cover is attempted normally."
Later,
'Lynx
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:07:42 -0500
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers
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At 12:29 AM 7/30/97 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>>Sigh. But the classics never get done justice...
>>
>>On this note, I refer you to the trailer for STARSHIP TROOPERS ... where
none
>>of the Troopers seem to be wearing power-armor, the whole friggin' point of
>>the book!!! AIIIIIGHHH!!
>
>Actually, ST boiled down to a lecture on moral pragmatism (eg. public
>whipping is an appropriate punishment for crimes b/c it works as a
>deterrant, expansion through conquest and extermination is right b/c if we
>didn't do it we'd be wiped out or enslaved, military service as a basis for
>citizenship and voting is right b/c people in military service understand
>about sacrifice and responsibility to one another), but I agree, power armor
>was too essential to the book to just rip it out...:-(
>
Actually Heinlein was not actually in favor of any of these things,
except maybe the concept that if you want full citizenship then you should
have served in some "Civil Service" position (ie:Military - whatever)...
I have it straight from the Man himself (many years ago), that he wrote
the book Starship Troopers, to convince the "hippies" that he was not
somesort of GURU...they started camping out on his front door after
"Stranger in a Strange Land", the idea being to create a book so
sickeningly Pro-Establishment that they would all leave- guess what, it worked!
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:33:41 -0700
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 08:07 AM 7/30/97 -0500, Earl Kwallek wrote:
> Actually Heinlein was not actually in favor of any of these things,
>except maybe the concept that if you want full citizenship then you should
>have served in some "Civil Service" position (ie:Military - whatever)...
> I have it straight from the Man himself (many years ago), that he wrote
>the book Starship Troopers, to convince the "hippies" that he was not
>somesort of GURU...they started camping out on his front door after
>"Stranger in a Strange Land", the idea being to create a book so
>sickeningly Pro-Establishment that they would all leave- guess what, it
worked!
>
>
But didn't ST predate SIASL by almost a decade?
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:04:36 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 12:29 AM 7/30/97 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote:
> Jeez, I almost vomited when I saw what they did to Sasquatch.
I don't think they technically "did" anything to Sasquatch, other than
introduce an entirely new character which all the others characters THINK is
Sasquatch. I expect Walter to show up any issue now, saying "Hi, guys. how
are you? I've been -- whoa, what is THAT?"
> Another thing that got me was the 'new' suit they handed Heather.
> 'Controls geo-thermal forces' - uh-huh. And just what was wrong with the
> classic suit?
It's identical to Jim Hudson's suit, that's what. They didn't want to have
two functionally interchangeable characters on the team.
>AND WHERE WAS THE FREAKING MAGIC??? That set Alpha Flight _apart_, the
>strong presence of magical characters (Snowbird, Shaman, Talisman). Right
>out the window.
Given the central precept of this (that somehow Canada has acquired All The
Conspiracy-Paranoia-Style-Government There Is), it sorta makes sense that
there's no magic -- Shaman and Talisman seem like they'd be rather better
equipped to avoid this kind of bureaucratic trap.
==
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely. |
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 30 Jul 97 16:21:00 GMT
Subject: Skill Levels Idea
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com
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Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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h > Some books (mostly Dark Champions ones) let a character buy 5-point
h > Combat Skill Levels with a -1 Limitation if the Skill Levels can only
h > be
h > used to neutralize penalties for a certain purpose, such as Hit
h > Locations,
h > target size, dodging, etc. But it occurs to me that Range Skill
h > Levels are
h > basically the same thing, applied specifically to Range Penalties.
h > What if Range Skill Levels were changed in name to Penalty Skill
h > Levels,
h > and were allowed to be used to overcome any specific type of penalty,
h > defined when purchased? Thus, a character could have +2 Levels vs Hit
h > Locations for 6 points, or +2 vs Hit Locations with his gun for 3
h > points.
h > Any feedback on this?
h > ---
h > This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library
Perfectly good idea. Though it might be a bit cheap with very specific
levels.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 30 Jul 97 16:26:02 GMT
Subject: Re: New spin on Variable
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h > Yes, because having a +1 Advantage is better than a +1/4 Advantage.
h > But as
h > I just said, the added number of choices is independent of this.
h >
h > To put it another way, because of the extra versatility, the
h > difference in
h > usefulness between a flat +1 Advantage and a +1 Variable Advantage is
h > greater than the difference in usefulness between a +1/4 Adv and a
h > +1/4
h > Var Adv. The rules at present don't reflect that.
h > ---
True, how 'bout:
Variable Advantage +1/4, +1/2, +1, +1 1/2, etc. <STOP>
Variable Advantage works very much like Variable Limitation.
For each +1/2 Advantage, the character can take a +1/4 advantage
on his power, changing this advantage as desired. The player
must give the GM a short list of advantages that his power can
have, including the defense against NND or AVLD advantage
(remeber a character shouldn't usually have more than one NND).
In play it may still be possible to use other advantages that fit
the power's special effect, if the GM wishes to permit it.
I also like the idea of a +1/4 level:
For +1/4, Variable Advantage allows a power to be redefined
in ways that alter neither point cost nor special effect. For
instance, an Energy Blast could be switched between normal and
stun-only damage, or a killing attack between physical and
energy. Defenses against NND, AVLD, Uncontrolled, or Useable
against others attacks cannot be changed. Neither can the
destination of Extra-Dimensional Movement nor the attacks
affecting Desolidification be changed so easily. Advantages can
be turned off as well. Though this does not reduce the active
point cost of the power, it does allow the character to save END.
Finally, I like the original Variable Advantage from 1st Ed
Fantasy Hero. In that version, you could take straight Apts
instead of advantage. A toned down version of that:
In addition to buying advantages, the GM may allow a
character to increase the base points of the power with Variable
Advantage by 25% per +1/2 advantage so applied. Thus, a
character with 4d EB with a +1 Variable advantage (Apt cost of
60) could throw a 6d EB with no advantages, a 5d EB with AP (a
+1/2 advantage), or a 4d NND (+1).
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:48:24 +0000
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers
Reply-to: guyhoyle@iname.com
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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I think I'll probably go see the film, but I won't be expecting it to
conform to the book very well. Instead, I'm going to try and enjoy
it on its own merits. It might be a pretty decent film in its own
right.
Guy
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:31:18 -0700
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell)
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers
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-> From earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us Wed Jul 30 06:17:29 1997
-> >
->
-> Actually Heinlein was not actually in favor of any of these things,
-> except maybe the concept that if you want full citizenship then you should
-> have served in some "Civil Service" position (ie:Military - whatever)...
-> I have it straight from the Man himself (many years ago), that he wrote
-> the book Starship Troopers, to convince the "hippies" that he was not
-> somesort of GURU...they started camping out on his front door after
-> "Stranger in a Strange Land", the idea being to create a book so
-> sickeningly Pro-Establishment that they would all leave- guess what, it worked!
->
I think that either you, or "the Man", is experiencing a memory problem.
Starship Troopers was published in 1959, well before hippies (or anyone else)
was going around calling anyone a guru. Stranger in a Strange Land was published
in 1961, so it seems unlikely that Starship Troopers was written in response
to fans of SiaSL. Heinlein's characters travelled occasionally travelled backwards
in time, but as far as I know Heinlein himself was incapable of this feat.
-Sam
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:35:52 -0700
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net>
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net
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Sam Bell wrote:
>
> -> From earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us Wed Jul 30 06:17:29 1997
> -> >
> ->
> -> Actually Heinlein was not actually in favor of any of these things,
> -> except maybe the concept that if you want full citizenship then you should
> -> have served in some "Civil Service" position (ie:Military - whatever)...
> -> I have it straight from the Man himself (many years ago), that he wrote
> -> the book Starship Troopers, to convince the "hippies" that he was not
> -> somesort of GURU...they started camping out on his front door after
> -> "Stranger in a Strange Land", the idea being to create a book so
> -> sickeningly Pro-Establishment that they would all leave- guess what, it worked!
> ->
>
> I think that either you, or "the Man", is experiencing a memory problem.
>
> Starship Troopers was published in 1959, well before hippies (or anyone else)
> was going around calling anyone a guru. Stranger in a Strange Land was published
> in 1961, so it seems unlikely that Starship Troopers was written in response
> to fans of SiaSL. Heinlein's characters travelled occasionally travelled backwards
> in time, but as far as I know Heinlein himself was incapable of this feat.
Starship Troopers is one film I definately won't be shelling out the
money to see. I decided this months ago, when the lack of power armor
was pointed out to me. Far be it from me to be a Heinlein purist, but I
think that some of the visual effect would be lost without it.
Btw, I have never even read the book. Nor have I read much of
anything Heinlein has put out. In fact, I have read books by just about
every other science fiction author.
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Help! Polymorphic Shapeshifter
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:33:07 -0400 (EDT)
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> Hey guys and gals, I need some help. I'm trying to make a
> shapeshifter....now I seem to be making it more and more complicated
> everytime I change things and read more rules.
> This guy is a bioconstruct....if I can possible do so, I want him to
> actually have _NO_ actual real shape.
IMHO, this would be a special effect of his (I'll just decide on one
pronoun for simplicity's sake) Shape Shift power. When it gets dispelled,
Polymorph gets trapped in his current form.
> That is, he can be anyone or
> anything, but has no shape of his own. However, this seems to bring to
> many things into play.
>
> Namely, how do I do even the normal characteristics then? You can't
> exactly put them into a "power pool".
>
Power Pools are a pain anyways. I suggest you sell down all your physical
characteristics to the lowest value they'd likely be (5, maybe) and have
a big Multipower Pool with the limitation Linked to Shapeshift (-1/2) with
a bunch of +'s for all your physical characteristics. Remember, since
this is a power framework, any primary characteristics you buy this way
will not benefit computed characteristics so buy some PD, ED, Speed, REC,
etc. this way as well. Label this Multi-Pool as "Physical Enhancements".
> I want to actually be able to "turn into", not just mimic, people if
> need be. Thus, I can turn into a security guard, and have his shape,
> mannerisms, and total package so to speak. Now this I can do easily I
> think, with skills such as mimicry, liguist, stuff like universal
> translator and ambidexterity, and the powers of shapeshifting, and the
> like.
Don't forget disguise and acting. And it may be worth gett a 10pts
Instant Change so you'll always have the right clothing. Some telepathy
couldn't hurt either.
>
> However, I also want to be able to turn into animals, mythalogical
> beings, and even something like a rock. Now, this guy is no brick or
> energy projector or mentalist. He just is something normal....with a
> twist I'm hoping. For example, if he needs strength and armor, he turns
> into a rhino, and gets from a power pool of some kind the powers of
> armor, extra str, and perhaps HA, +con, and other such SUITABLE things.
> Now these aren't exactly going to raise him up to brick like str and
> such, I want limits. Now on the other end, (rhino uses density and
> growth too), I want to be an insect too....so shrink, etc. will be
> applied.
>
> Now, how do I do this? Make a power pool like a gadget pool - but my
> "body" is actually what changes? There are limits remember.
>
If it were up to me, I would now create a second Multi-Pool labeled
"Shapeshifter Tricks". This would include such things as flight, armor,
persistant shrinking and growth, multiple limbs with variable special
effects, HA, HKA, and anything else a Shapeshifter might use. I would
advise you to give up on the insects, since a 60pt, 0 END, Persistant
Shrinking is 120 active points, and therefore more than you can probably
afford for this pool. Set reasonable limits to begin with, and work
toward the cool-but-very-expensive stuff with xp. Keep the most expensive
power down to 60 AP, and you can put a Linked to Shapeshift (-1/2) on this
whole MPP, and save muchos puntos.
> Oh, I've got 300pts to play with.
>
> The more I look at this, the more confused I get. Maybe I'm thinking to
> much. :)
>
> Any ideas? I'll respond back often to fill out the concept if need be.
> For powers to be other animals/insect/objects (objects that don't _DO_
> anything - I can't become a gun for instance) I'm looking at things like
> flight for birds, armor for thick skin, running, swimming, clinging,
> swinging (monkey?), extra limbs, shrink-growth-density, tunneling,
> discriminatory sense, and anything else that could help. Only the
> applicable powers that define the creature/thing can be used at one
> time. That is, if I am a rhino, I don't get the power of flight.
>
Some of those extra-sensory powers will require GM permission to put in
a power framework.
> (He) has full lifesupport, as he's not really alive, though he can mimic
> breathing and such of course.
>
> Don't forget, if possible, I don't want him to have a body - He always
> is _anything_ around you - thats part of the story, background,
> limitations and such.
>
> Is this possible guys?
>
Hmmm, one last thought. You could buy some multiforms to simulate
creatures and objects that would be too costly to simulate the
swiss-army-knife way. For instance, an insect with 2nd level shapeshift
to simulate any sort of small bug. Actually, you could buy half a dozen
multiforms for different "genotypes" or target types, and give each of
them shapeshifting and full life support. Label them things like "large
predator", "little bug", "humanoid" and such, and give each of them modest
MPP's to account for a reasonable amount of variation. This might
actually be the cheapest way, though it is hard to know without sitting
down and designing the character. Let me know if you have any questions
about what I've said. Just thought I'd mention some options, 'hope I
didn't confuse you.
> Deuce.
> aka Gundam.
>
-Eric
aka Turkey Volume Guessing Man
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:48:03 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Sacrifice move
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At 05:55 AM 7/30/97 PDT, Salmon,David wrote:
>Hey guys ... I can't believe nobody knows of this!!! Try looking at
> Missle Deflection. It explains exactly how to do this type of block
> for someone else. Not having the book in front of me, you basically
> buy the base power and then add x points to be able to use it at range
> to block against attacks aimed at another character. This is not a
> great explanation but just look up the power. Hope this helps!
I think that's a little different than what was being asked for. :-]
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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:04:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
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From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger)
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All this teleporting through the window presupposes that the shutters,
shades, and/or curtains are open. Such a smart@$$.
Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
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>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
F> On 29 Jul 97 at 21:11, Robert A. West wrote:
>> Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>> The question of what "unconventional" barriers stop mental powers is
No, I did not.
Please check your attributions before posting.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
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>>>>> "F" == Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> writes:
F> Second, it seems that you're contradicting yourself.
No, I was talking about line of sight.
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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:38:06 -0700 (PDT)
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From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Skill Levels Idea
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Here's an idea I had recently.
Some books (mostly Dark Champions ones) let a character buy 5-point
Combat Skill Levels with a -1 Limitation if the Skill Levels can only be
used to neutralize penalties for a certain purpose, such as Hit Locations,
target size, dodging, etc. But it occurs to me that Range Skill Levels are
basically the same thing, applied specifically to Range Penalties.
What if Range Skill Levels were changed in name to Penalty Skill Levels,
and were allowed to be used to overcome any specific type of penalty,
defined when purchased? Thus, a character could have +2 Levels vs Hit
Locations for 6 points, or +2 vs Hit Locations with his gun for 3 points.
Any feedback on this?
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:56:19 +0000
Subject: Re: Two Quick Questions
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On 30 Jul 97 at 17:30, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> No, I did not.
>
> Please check your attributions before posting.
Sorry about that. For some reason I seem to be unable to keep my
cropping straight on this group. I don't seem to have that problem
elsewhere.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:00:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers
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On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Guy Hoyle wrote:
> I think I'll probably go see the film, but I won't be expecting it to
> conform to the book very well. Instead, I'm going to try and enjoy
> it on its own merits. It might be a pretty decent film in its own
> right.
Which is my opinion. I'm going to try and forget that I read a book
called "Starship Troopers" and just enjoy the movie. I at least want to
see the SPFX (computer animated Bugs! Cool!) on the big screen.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:39:23 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: 4-color campaign advice
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Darin ( boaters@ix.netcom.com ) writes about his new campaign:
> So far, they only know about two mafia groups in Tampa that are
> bringing harm to innocents. (The mafia groups who are warring with each
> other have recently been hiring supermercs to do their dirty work.)
> Viper is also in town and they will soon learn that.
So, opposition is going to be two different mafia groups and Viper ?
> The UNTIL and
> GUARD are severely limited in this area, since until the unveiling of
> the team there has been only one super hero in Tampa and he was
> registered with them.
I guess you're talking about PRIMUS ? I don't understand why there's
a relationship between the number of super heroes in Tampa and the number
of UNTIL / GUARD units. Shouldn't that be based on the number of super-villainsrather than the number of super **heroes**. Or strategic targets for
instance.
> Now there are some 28 heroes and heroines that
> have joined the battle from the call of one man.
TWENTY EIGHT ??!!! Where did TWENTY EIGHT different superheroes come from ?
How many players and how many characters do you have ? This seems pretty
unworkable to me. In my opinion, depending on how serious you want the game
to be, you'll need to limit the numbers of both characters and players.
> Unfortunately, this
> sudden beefing up of city security is going to attract a certain amount
> of supervillians thinking that there is something to steal in this town
> if there are so many supers trying to protect it.
>
Again, in my opinion, it seems more likely that the villains are going to
think twice before trying to operate somewhere where they're outnumbered
at least three to one. Intelligent villains would do some detective work to
confirm that there's something worthwhile before getting their heads handed
to them. Really intelligent villains would start up operations where the
heroes **left**.
> Another interesting fact about the campaign is that it has no set
> meeting time. I have designed it so that any group size from 1 to 12
> can play at any time.
See my comment about number of players/characters. Is this going to be
a live game or PBEM ?
Just my two cents. Curt
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:14:56 +0000
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
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On 31 Jul 97 at 13:41, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
> At 11:36 AM 7/29/97 +0000, you wrote:
> >On 29 Jul 97 at 15:34, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
> >
> >> really? what about homosexuality? or adultery? or use of drugs?
> >
> >All condemned by some societies, and accepted by others. Are you
> >saying that whether or not they are good, bad, or morally neutral is
> >_entirely_ cultural? That being homosexual is all right, if your
> >culture says so, _and_ killing homosexuals is all right, if your
> >culture says so?
> >
>
> how abour mass murderers? how about child molesters?
How does that answer my question?
> well, that's up to god- pity we don't get to mett him 'till after he
> decides to kill us. . *g*
Not at all. I have already made many decisions in that area. I do not
consider my opinion to be an absolute, but as a pragmatic matter,
there are things that I have concluded are so evil that I will kill
to stop them. God's opinion is his own, applied after we have died. I
apply mine in this life.
<snip>
>
> no, i'm saying that it's neither totally wrong or totally right-
Uh, I don't recall anyone saying that anything was totally wrong or
right, only that wrong and right exist. Nothing is totally cold or
hot, but cold and hot still are qualities that exist.
> back in medievil times, all sorts of horrid stuff went on: are you
> suggesting everyone alive back then is evil? no, they were what
> society made them: i know you rambo types would rather pretend
> criminals deserved to be killed,
I never claimed that I thought that anyone deserved to be killed. In
fact, no one in this thread said they would _ever_ kill, except you.
> but as it turns out they're just as
> """innocent""" as anyone else. . .
As innocent as anyone else? Then you believe that people who ran
Auschwitz were as "innocent" as the people they killed? Then by what
justification would you have killed them? By definition, people who
commit crimes are not innocent, that is what innocent means. They may
be "not guilty", by reason of insanity, justification, or what have
you, but by definition they are not "innocent".
If the killers at Auschwitz are as "innocent" as anyone else, then I
can kill whomever I please, and I am "innocent". All actions become
justifiable.
<snip>
>
> what about the bombing of dresden?
An evil act. Possibly more justifiable than Auschwitz, but evil never
the less.
> lots of dead civilians there. . .
> how about eradication of a town stuck with a superflu? i know it
> waxes fictional, but isn't the lives of the many more signifigant
> than the lives of the few? couldn't they, in their own sick way,
> have been trying to """"do the world a favor"""?
Yes. Motive is not, in itself, sufficient to make an evil act good.
> there were
> compasionate nazi's . . . .read about some of the higher-ranked
> officers in china, they could see the atrocities of their japanese
> allies, but were blind to their brothers back home.
Many compassionate people, Nazis and otherwise, didn't even really
know what was happening at home. Nor did I claim that there exists a
group that is universally and totally evil. Nevertheless, killing
murderers who are still killing is not as evil as killing children,
in fact, it could be argued that not killing them, if that is the
only way to stop them, is more evil than killing them.
<snip>
> option one- it is a matter of society- i wasn't making a point, what
> i was doing is called "starting a discussion" and sometimes "making
> a contribution"- it's easy when you know howe! *g*
It is more than a matter of society. Does society matter? Yes. Do
intentions and beliefs matter? Yes.
They are not enough, however, to define good and evil. There may not
be an absolute good or an absolute evil. I may not always know what
actions are good and what actions are evil. Intentions
and beliefs may influence whether or not an action is
good or evil, or how good or evil it is. Nevertheless, good and evil
do exist.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:40:06 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Sacrifice move
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On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Salmon,David wrote:
> Hey guys ... I can't believe nobody knows of this!!! Try looking at
> Missle Deflection. It explains exactly how to do this type of block
> for someone else.
But that's not what was asked for... the idea was for the hero to take the
shot him- or herself, whereas a Block keeps it from affecting anyone. As
already stated, Dive for Cover is the way to do the former effect.
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:13:41 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: New spin on Variable Advantage and Multipower
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On 27 Jul 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> TB> Yes, it does. The larger the advantage, the more possible configurations
> TB> there are; therefore it's more useful to be able to switch around a larger
> TB> one. This is independent of the fact that just having a larger Advantage
> TB> is better, therefore it makes sense for the cost of Variable Advantage
> TB> itself to vary with the amount of Advantage that can be changed.
>
> And thank you for ignoring the comments I made that addressed this: a +1
> Variable Advantage does cost more than a +1/4 Variable Advantage.
Yes, because having a +1 Advantage is better than a +1/4 Advantage. But as
I just said, the added number of choices is independent of this.
To put it another way, because of the extra versatility, the difference in
usefulness between a flat +1 Advantage and a +1 Variable Advantage is
greater than the difference in usefulness between a +1/4 Adv and a +1/4
Var Adv. The rules at present don't reflect that.
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:16:24 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
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On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, Bryan Berggren wrote:
> >> Certain phenomena of reality can ONLY be percieved or encountered
> >> by superhumans (such as Marvel's Eternity).
> >
> >If you want to be absurdly nitpicky, Dr. Strange isn't superhuman.
>
> 1. Find me a normal human in the real world who can do what Doc Strange
> does in a typical issue, and I will surrender the point that he "isn't
> superhuman". And to stall further comment, yes, I consider Tony Stark
> "superhuman" as well, since the Iron Man armor isn't likely to show up on
> Beyond 2000 any time soon.
Do you consider Batman to be "superhuman"? No real world person could do
what he does, but he's still regarded as a "skilled normal". Regardless of
how things work in the real world, in the Marvel U anybody could, in
theory, learn to do what Dr. Strange does.
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:19:00 +1000
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Subject: Re: 4 color principles
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At 07:17 AM 7/29/97 -0700, you wrote:
>jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>>
>> At 10:50 PM 7/28/97 -0700, you wrote:
>> >Bryan Berggren wrote:
>> >>
>> >Visit the Holocaust Museum sometime and see if you really think that Good
>> >and Evil are merely arbitrary and/or meaningless. * * *
>> >
>> >Cultural Relativism is a useful academic construct; it is madness as
>> >either a personal or cultural philosophy.
>> >
>>
>> really? what about homosexuality? or adultery? or use of drugs? go to japan and ask them about how they treat kiddie-porn, something we all
>find abhorent.
>> hell, if i was alive back then in ww2, and i could have wiped out the SS in one go, i would- but is that any better than more 'innocent'
>massacres?
>
>
>If you don't see a distinction between destroying the SS and killing
>innocents in Auschwitz, then I pity you. As for the other issues you
>bring up, the fact of moral disagreement does not make the choice
>"arbitrary and meaningless" any more than the fact of scientific
>disagreement makes the question meaningless.
>
>There are issues that are valid cultural choices, where a society must
>make a choice to survive as a coherent whole. There are other issues
>that are valid personal choices. There are still other issues where
>the range of available options changes with technology. And some issues
>are rock-bottom good/evil choices. Deliberately causing confusion among
>these is a form of hypocrisy.
>
no, it's simply a recognition of the stupidity of such categorisations-
they're all very pretty on paper, but only a sociologist would think they stand up
to real life.
>The fact that other societies have chosen differently does not validate a
>choice. Every society does evil things as well as good things. Knowing
>the difference, and knowing what are *not* moral issues, is one of the
>great quests of life.
>
yes, and it happens to be a wild goose chase- there is no absolute right, or moral right, and anyone suggesting there is is both terribly arrogant(my way is right)
and terribly underconfident(it's not my opinion that counts, it's "God's")
>>
>> >--
>> ><------------------------------------------------------->
>> >Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
>> >Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
>> >http://www.erols.com/robtwest
>> >
>> >
>
>--
><------------------------------------------------------->
>Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
>Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
>http://www.erols.com/robtwest
>
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:27:03 +1000
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At 01:37 PM 7/29/97 -0400, you wrote:
>> >Visit the Holocaust Museum sometime and see if you really think that Good
>> >and Evil are merely arbitrary and/or meaningless. Do you really think
>> >that slavery in America was just another cultural choice? Can anyone
>> >honestly believe that Pol Pot's killing fields were just an expression of
>> >a cultural idea, neither more no less valid than any other?
>> >
>> >Cultural Relativism is a useful academic construct; it is madness as
>> >either a personal or cultural philosophy.
>> >
>>
>> really? what about homosexuality? or adultery? or use of drugs? go to
>> japan and ask them about how they treat kiddie-porn, something we all
>> find abhorent.
>> hell, if i was alive back then in ww2, and i could have wiped out the
>> SS in one go, i would- but is that any better than more 'innocent'
>> massacres?
>>
>
>To say that people do not always agree on what exactly constitutes right
>and wrong, good and evil, is to state the obvious. To conclude from this
>that there is no good or evil, except in the subjective opinions of
>individuals, is not just foolish but potentially destructive. Please do
>not expect us to believe that whether the Holocaust was wrong is a matter
>of opinion.
>
foolish to say, because people like you seem to think opinions are not valid,
despite it being the most important thing in the universe-
No, i'm simply suggesting that it wasn't wrong for a bunch of nazi psyco's-
when it comes down to it, all you have is numbers- what i'm suggesting is that
number count- some people in the medical industry believe in euthanasia,
if i consider it abhorent is it my opinion or the 'truth'? god and evil are *fundamentally* subjective- they exist only in our mind, as do our other opinions,
memories of those we cherish, books we never get down on paper. . . .
all the good stuff, actually.. . *G*
>-Eric
>
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:28:43 -0500
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers
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At 10:26 AM 7/30/97 +0000, Filksinger wrote:
>On 30 Jul 97 at 8:07, Earl Kwallek wrote:
>
>>
>> Actually Heinlein was not actually in favor of any of these
>> things,
>> except maybe the concept that if you want full citizenship then you
>> should have served in some "Civil Service" position (ie:Military -
>> whatever)...
>> I have it straight from the Man himself (many years ago), that he
>> wrote
>> the book Starship Troopers, to convince the "hippies" that he was
>> not somesort of GURU...they started camping out on his front door
>> after "Stranger in a Strange Land", the idea being to create a book
>> so sickeningly Pro-Establishment that they would all leave- guess
>> what, it worked!
>
>Starship Troopers was published two years before Stranger. The
>"Heinlein as guru" phenomenon took years to build, and Heinlein
>stated on more than one occassion that it took him completely by
>surprise.
>
Hmmm... as I no longer have either book on my shelf (my entire Heinlein
collection was "vanished" during my last move) I can't check that myself...
Perhaps Mr H was misremembering the order himself...
Or perhaps I heard him incorrectly... Not that important...
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:31:42 +1000
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At 02:17 PM 7/29/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 03:34 PM 7/29/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>>>Visit the Holocaust Museum sometime and see if you really think that Good
>>>and Evil are merely arbitrary and/or meaningless. Do you really think
>>>that slavery in America was just another cultural choice? Can anyone
>>>honestly believe that Pol Pot's killing fields were just an expression of
>>>a cultural idea, neither more no less valid than any other?
>>>
>>>Cultural Relativism is a useful academic construct; it is madness as
>>>either a personal or cultural philosophy.
>>>
>>
>>really? what about homosexuality? or adultery? or use of drugs? go to japan
>and ask them about how they treat kiddie-porn, something we all find abhorent.
>>hell, if i was alive back then in ww2, and i could have wiped out the SS in
>one go, i would- but is that any better than more 'innocent' massacres?
>
> Could we please get through this discussion without it devolving into yet
>another asinine "my philosophy is inherently better than yours simply
>because I say it is" argument?
*sigh* pay attention! my quite obvious point is that EVERYBODY'S opinion is equal!!
c'mon, the concept may be inherently paradoxical, but so's everything else in real life! *g*
>---
>This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library
>
>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:35:06 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers
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Darrin Kelley wrote:
>
> Starship Troopers is one film I definately won't be shelling out the
> money to see. I decided this months ago, when the lack of power armor
> was pointed out to me. Far be it from me to be a Heinlein purist, but I
> think that some of the visual effect would be lost without it.
>
> Btw, I have never even read the book. Nor have I read much of
> anything Heinlein has put out. In fact, I have read books by just about
> every other science fiction author.
Let me get this straight. You've already decided not to see a movie
because it doesn't follow the book. A book you've never even read.
Kind of closed minded, isnt it? So tell me Darrin, if your 'friend'
hadnt pointed out to you that it wasnt following the book, would you
have gone to see it?
Personally I could care less if it follows the book (guess what, I've
never read it either). I'm going to wait and base my opinion on the
MOVIE, not on what makes me look cool in front of my friends. I thought
the movie trailer looked cool as hell. I'd be going to see it if I had
to go alone.
Aren't you the same guy that just got done lecturing us on how current
mainstream comicbooks are all crap? Kind of makes me wonder how many of
them you've actually read. Of course, bashing anything mainstream IS
the 'in' thing to do these days, isnt it?
Todd
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:41:03 +1000
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At 11:36 AM 7/29/97 +0000, you wrote:
>On 29 Jul 97 at 15:34, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>
>> At 10:50 PM 7/28/97 -0700, you wrote:
>> >Cultural Relativism is a useful academic construct; it is madness as
>> >either a personal or cultural philosophy.
>> >
>>
>> really? what about homosexuality? or adultery? or use of drugs?
>
>All condemned by some societies, and accepted by others. Are you
>saying that whether or not they are good, bad, or morally neutral is
>_entirely_ cultural? That being homosexual is all right, if your
>culture says so, _and_ killing homosexuals is all right, if your
>culture says so?
>
how abour mass murderers? how about child molesters?
well, that's up to god- pity we don't get to mett him 'till after he decides to kill us. . *g*
>>go
>> to japan and ask them about how they treat kiddie-porn, something we
>> all find abhorent.
>
>How does the acceptability of kiddie-porn in another society prove
>that cultural relativism is right? I would think that would be an
>argument in the other direction, that some things are wrong no matter
>what the culture they are in says. Are you actually saying that
>kiddie-porn is fine, so long as you are in Japan, and wrong, so long
>as you are in the US?
>
no, i'm saying that it's neither totally wrong or totally right- back in medievil times,
all sorts of horrid stuff went on: are you suggesting everyone alive back then is evil?
no, they were what society made them: i know you rambo types would rather pretend
criminals deserved to be killed, but as it turns out they're just as """innocent"""
as anyone else. . .
>>hell, if i was alive back then in ww2, and i
>> could have wiped out the SS in one go, i would- but is that any
>> better than more 'innocent' massacres?
>
>Absolutely. Killing people who you are at war with, killing people
>who are committing atrocities, thereby stopping them, yes, this is
>better than killing men, women, and children, often in slow and
>painful ways, because you need a scapegoat to hold up your sick self
>image of being a member of a "master race".
>
what about the bombing of dresden? lots of dead civilians there. . .
how about eradication of a town stuck with a superflu?
i know it waxes fictional, but isn't the lives of the many
more signifigant than the lives of the few?
couldn't they, in their own sick way, have been trying to
""""do the world a favor"""? there were compasionate nazi's
. . . .read about some of the higher-ranked officers in
china, they could see the atrocities of their japanese
allies, but were blind to their brothers back home.
>Obviously, you agree, or you wouldn't want to kill the SS in the
>first place. Either that, or you are claiming that you are as bad as
>the SS, except that you didn't have the opportunity to kill the
>people you wanted to kill. Are you claiming to be, potentially, as
>evil as the SS, or that it is OK for the Nazis to murder all those
>people? I am afraid that I don't see your point.
>
>Filksinger
>"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
>
option one- it is a matter of society- i wasn't making a point,
what i was doing is called "starting a discussion"
and sometimes "making a contribution"-
it's easy when you know howe! *g*
From: boaters@ix.netcom.com
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:54:08 -0400
Subject: Re: 4-color campaign advice
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Curt Hicks wrote:
> Darin ( boaters@ix.netcom.com ) writes about his new campaign:
>
> So, opposition is going to be two different mafia groups and Viper ?
>
There will be other opposition, this is the only opposition that will
spring up at first.
> > The UNTIL and
> > GUARD are severely limited in this area, since until the unveiling
> of
> > the team there has been only one super hero in Tampa and he was
> > registered with them.
>
> I guess you're talking about PRIMUS ? I don't understand why there's
> a relationship between the number of super heroes in Tampa and the
> number
> of UNTIL / GUARD units. Shouldn't that be based on the number of
> super-villainsrather than the number of super **heroes**. Or
> strategic targets for
> instance.
>
In my campaign, you have to register yourself if you are a paranormal.
The team has a large amount of unregistered applicants on the team.
These groups will leave these "heroes" alone as long as they do good.
However, they still would like to know as much as possible about the
character like, why they did not register, what there abilities are, and
whether or not they are going on a killing spree.
> > Now there are some 28 heroes and heroines that
> > have joined the battle from the call of one man.
>
> TWENTY EIGHT ??!!! Where did TWENTY EIGHT different superheroes
> come from ?
>
The man who put the team together is very well connected.
> How many players and how many characters do you have ? This seems
> pretty
> unworkable to me.
About 14 of them are PC's but I do not forsee any problems becuase the
game is designed around the idea that only a few players will play at
any time. It has not set meeting time nor does it have a set amount of
players required to have a session.
> In my opinion, depending on how serious you want the game
> to be, you'll need to limit the numbers of both characters and
> players.
>
I do not think that this is going to be a problem, I have once run a
campaign with 35 players in it and not only was it kept very serious
everyone had a lot of fun.
> > Unfortunately, this
> > sudden beefing up of city security is going to attract a certain
> amount
> > of supervillians thinking that there is something to steal in this
> town
> > if there are so many supers trying to protect it.
> >
> Again, in my opinion, it seems more likely that the villains are going
> to
> think twice before trying to operate somewhere where they're
> outnumbered
> at least three to one. Intelligent villains would do some detective
> work to
> confirm that there's something worthwhile before getting their heads
> handed
> to them. Really intelligent villains would start up operations where
> the
> heroes **left**.
>
Do not get me wrong, most of the the villians will take there time and
not show their faces for some time. (With the exception of Foxbat)
There are some things in Tampa worth getting that the supes do not know
about yet. This will be part of the campaign in which they will find
out about these items.
> > Another interesting fact about the campaign is that it has no set
> > meeting time. I have designed it so that any group size from 1 to
> 12
> > can play at any time.
>
> See my comment about number of players/characters. Is this going to
> be
> a live game or PBEM ?
>
Both. I believe that I have neglected to say that this is going to be
an experimental campaign. I do not know how this is going to turn out.
> Just my two cents. Curt
Thanks for the ideas.
Darin
From: boaters@ix.netcom.com
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 01:05:10 -0400
Subject: electronic book UMA
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I recently bought the electronic version of the Ultimate Martial
Artist. Unfortunately, It was missing a few things. The first thing
that it did not have was the cover of the book version. This was some
really good artwork and I had hoped that it would be included.
Furthermore, the graphic on page 97 is missing.
I still can log on to the Herogames page so I thought that I would
try to reach anyone here instead. I just want to know whether or not
this is only my case or has anyone else had this problem.
Darin
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 17:32:43 +1000
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Subject: Re: 4 color principles
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At 11:14 PM 7/30/97 +0000, you wrote:
>On 31 Jul 97 at 13:41, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>
>> At 11:36 AM 7/29/97 +0000, you wrote:
>> >On 29 Jul 97 at 15:34, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>> >
>> >> really? what about homosexuality? or adultery? or use of drugs?
>> >
>> >All condemned by some societies, and accepted by others. Are you
>> >saying that whether or not they are good, bad, or morally neutral is
>> >_entirely_ cultural? That being homosexual is all right, if your
>> >culture says so, _and_ killing homosexuals is all right, if your
>> >culture says so?
>> >
>>
>> how abour mass murderers? how about child molesters?
>
>How does that answer my question?
>
my point exactly! there IS no answer to such questions except in
a subjective sence!
>> well, that's up to god- pity we don't get to mett him 'till after he
>> decides to kill us. . *g*
>
>Not at all. I have already made many decisions in that area. I do not
>consider my opinion to be an absolute, but as a pragmatic matter,
>there are things that I have concluded are so evil that I will kill
>to stop them. God's opinion is his own, applied after we have died. I
>apply mine in this life.
>
so you agree with me- it's a matter of opinion.
><snip>
>>
>> no, i'm saying that it's neither totally wrong or totally right-
>
>Uh, I don't recall anyone saying that anything was totally wrong or
>right, only that wrong and right exist. Nothing is totally cold or
>hot, but cold and hot still are qualities that exist.
>
no, actually, i think you'll find that was the point- hot an cold are only measured on a relative scale, even though concepts like absolute zero sugest an absolute value-
are you suggesting evil is simply complete lack of good?
>> back in medievil times, all sorts of horrid stuff went on: are you
>> suggesting everyone alive back then is evil? no, they were what
>> society made them: i know you rambo types would rather pretend
>> criminals deserved to be killed,
>
>I never claimed that I thought that anyone deserved to be killed. In
>fact, no one in this thread said they would _ever_ kill, except you.
>
i used it as an example of who is evil, who deserves what, and why they deserve it.
Frankly, this should have been blatantly obvious, and i doubt it wasn't.
>> but as it turns out they're just as
>> """innocent""" as anyone else. . .
>
>As innocent as anyone else? Then you believe that people who ran
>Auschwitz were as "innocent" as the people they killed? Then by what
>justification would you have killed them? By definition, people who
>commit crimes are not innocent, that is what innocent means. They may
>be "not guilty", by reason of insanity, justification, or what have
>you, but by definition they are not "innocent".
>
you miss the point again- define "crimes"! in some areas men
are allowed to beat their wives once a month! isn't that criminal?
>If the killers at Auschwitz are as "innocent" as anyone else, then I
>can kill whomever I please, and I am "innocent". All actions become
>justifiable.
no, they aren't justifiable, just not fundamentally evil- they are evil, because evil is only a matter of our opinion.
>
><snip>
>>
>> what about the bombing of dresden?
>
>An evil act. Possibly more justifiable than Auschwitz, but evil never
>the less.
>
no justification, actually, not in my opinion, and that's what counts, yes?
>> lots of dead civilians there. . .
>> how about eradication of a town stuck with a superflu? i know it
>> waxes fictional, but isn't the lives of the many more signifigant
>> than the lives of the few? couldn't they, in their own sick way,
>> have been trying to """"do the world a favor"""?
>
>Yes. Motive is not, in itself, sufficient to make an evil act good.
>
what is there but motive? are you suggesting somebody who kills in self defence is as
bad as a cold-blooded killer? what is really diffirent, if not motive?
>> there were
>> compasionate nazi's . . . .read about some of the higher-ranked
>> officers in china, they could see the atrocities of their japanese
>> allies, but were blind to their brothers back home.
>
>Many compassionate people, Nazis and otherwise, didn't even really
>know what was happening at home. Nor did I claim that there exists a
>group that is universally and totally evil. Nevertheless, killing
>murderers who are still killing is not as evil as killing children,
>in fact, it could be argued that not killing them, if that is the
>only way to stop them, is more evil than killing them.
>
yes, *argued* but never, never *proven*- nothing is ever proven , only argued,
from a metaphysical point of view.
><snip>
>> option one- it is a matter of society- i wasn't making a point, what
>> i was doing is called "starting a discussion" and sometimes "making
>> a contribution"- it's easy when you know howe! *g*
>
>It is more than a matter of society. Does society matter? Yes. Do
>intentions and beliefs matter? Yes.
>
they don't just matter . .. .
>They are not enough, however, to define good and evil. There may not
>be an absolute good or an absolute evil. I may not always know what
>actions are good and what actions are evil. Intentions
>and beliefs may influence whether or not an action is
>good or evil, or how good or evil it is. Nevertheless, good and evil
>do exist.
>
but they are immutable. . . . .they are relative:
"evil is in the eye of the beholder" make lots more sence than the original
version.
>Filksinger
>"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 18:06:57 +1000
From: Robert Challenger <thanos@zip.com.au>
Subject: Alpha Flight #2 (was: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles))
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John and Ron Prins wrote:
>
> >>> the new ALPHA FLIGHT,
> >>
> >>Ulch. I bought issue one of the 'new' Alpha Flight, and boy am I sorry I
> >>did. It was awful. No, it was wretched. Hideous. Pathetic. <shudder,
> >>shudder, shudder>
> >
> >Hmm ... on one hand, I know exactly what you mean--there was something
> >terribly,
> >horribly /wrong/ about the way the comic read. On the other hand,
> >
>
> >c) the terrible horrible wrongness seemed planned, and likely to be explained.
>
> Not a good plan, making everything seem so awful right from the first issue.
> Makes me want to follow the next six issues, yeah! (NOT!)
>
> >Of course, I can't find any issues BESIDES #1, so I guess I'll never know. :(
>
> I saw the cover of #2, looks like The Master is back (a good character, but
> I'm sure they screwed him up too...).
>
Look below the spoiler space to find out about what they did with The
Master.
As for the wrongness of it all, I agree that I felt similar after
reading issue #1, but I got number 2 anyway, and was pleasantly
suprised.
Admittedly its all very much a rip-off^H^H^H^H^H^H^H homage of X-Files,
but it still adds interest to the story and whats happening.
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
<is this far enough?? gee, I hope so>
Anyway, the storu is all based on the government dealings behind the
new X-Fligh.. erm, Alpha Fil.. Alfalfa Flight as much as the team
itself, which [for now at least] is making it an interesting read *PLUS*
its got Sunfire in it, whom i like muchly.
As for The Master, it was actually a training droid [and later on, a
bunch of them] tho I'm sure that therell be a lot more with this
happening later too. And who wont be looking forward to them going 'oh,
its another one of those stupid training sessions' when the real Master
turns up to clean their clocks?? 8)
--
Don't think cause I understand, I care.. | Robert Challenger
Don't think cause I'm talking, we're friends.. | Thanos@Zip.Com.Au
- 6 Underground, Sneaker Pimps. |
Manic Depressive Dragon -==(UDIC)==-
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:10:05 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net>
Subject: Re: Skill Levels Idea
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> Here's an idea I had recently.
> Some books (mostly Dark Champions ones) let a character buy 5-point
> Combat Skill Levels with a -1 Limitation if the Skill Levels can only be
> used to neutralize penalties for a certain purpose, such as Hit Locations,
> target size, dodging, etc. But it occurs to me that Range Skill Levels are
> basically the same thing, applied specifically to Range Penalties.
> What if Range Skill Levels were changed in name to Penalty Skill Levels,
> and were allowed to be used to overcome any specific type of penalty,
> defined when purchased? Thus, a character could have +2 Levels vs Hit
> Locations for 6 points, or +2 vs Hit Locations with his gun for 3 points.
> Any feedback on this?
> ---
> This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library
We have been using what amounts to the same thing for years in my FH
campaign. It hasn't caused much of a problem. The biggest imbalancing
factor is if someone gets 6-8 levels for hit locations, then (of course)
always go for the head. Our solution was to limit the maximum levels
applied to hit locations is half the penalty. A chest shot could be
dropped to a -1 and head at best would be -4.
Another common use for our levels in this mode were OCV levels that
didn't help to hit, but were figured in for autofire attacks. With 8
such levels if one shot hits they all do. This works fairly well for
some special effects on spells, and for the "Uzi marksman" types.
I've got a whole campaign specific set of rules for Levels. If anyone is
interested, I'll E-mail them, or post....
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
Mhoram's Fantasy Hero Domain:
http://apeleon.net/~mhoram/hero/FHsplash1.htm
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:42:38 -0700
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net>
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers
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Todd Hanson wrote:
> Let me get this straight. You've already decided not to see a movie
> because it doesn't follow the book. A book you've never even read.
> Kind of closed minded, isnt it? So tell me Darrin, if your 'friend'
> hadnt pointed out to you that it wasnt following the book, would you
> have gone to see it?
I greatly dislike movies that butcher novels. I have seen quite
enough of them done in the past to convince me that Hollywood couldn't
do a good adaptation of any novel, even if their lives depended on it.
Probably not. I am a very discriminating viewer and only go to the
theaters for something I consider to be really special. Which averages
out to be, maybe, one or two movies a year. For most other movies, I am
quite content to wait the year until they show up on cable.
> Personally I could care less if it follows the book (guess what, I've
> never read it either). I'm going to wait and base my opinion on the
> MOVIE, not on what makes me look cool in front of my friends. I thought
> the movie trailer looked cool as hell. I'd be going to see it if I had
> to go alone.
My opinions are based on my own impressions. Not that of my friends.
I am not some mindless sot that lets other people do his thinking for
him. When I was told that it was going to deviate greatly from the book,
from friends who were working on the production crew, I took it as fact.
> Aren't you the same guy that just got done lecturing us on how current
> mainstream comicbooks are all crap? Kind of makes me wonder how many of
> them you've actually read. Of course, bashing anything mainstream IS
> the 'in' thing to do these days, isnt it?
Yes, I am. And the stack of comic boxes in my closet are a testiment
to my long association with comics. I average a $100 a month bill at the
local comic book store that proves it.
I bashed most of the mainstream comics writers for good reason. They
seem to exhibit almost no imagination what-so-ever. Instead, they follow
extremely contrived worn out plotlines that have been done to death with
the same characters for years. Was there anything new with the Death Of
Superman? No, it had been almost a yearly event prior to the media hype.
The clone mess with Spiderman? A recycled storyline that should have
remained dead and forgotten. The various cosmic level crisis' that have
happened during the last few years in both Marvel and DC? They had
already been done to death. So I asked: What type of imagination does it
take to simply recycle the same old story and throw in come minor
changes to make it appear fresh? None. Zero.
I do acknowledge that there are a few good books at each of the
mainstream comic book companies. I have never tried to deny it. But they
seem to exist in spite of the intentions of the companies themselves.
Who would rather promote sales over a good product.
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:40:29 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
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At 01:19 PM 7/31/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
> yes, and it happens to be a wild goose chase- there is no absolute right,
> or moral right, and anyone suggesting there is is both terribly
> arrogant(my way is right) and terribly underconfident(it's not my
> opinion that counts, it's "God's")
And there you have it. To bring this full circle, all I meant by my "Good
and Evil are real forces" statement in regards to the four color genre is
that you won't find four-color characters saying anything like this above
quoted statement -- at least, not "normal" people (aka "squishies"). In a
four-color genre, it's conventional wisdom that there IS some absolute moral
right.
Although, for the record, not everybody who believes in an absolute moral
right necessarily believes in "God" or anything like it -- there's always
the secular humanists.
==
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:40:31 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: Instant Change as a Weapon
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At 03:01 PM 7/31/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote:
>Could you use Instant Change (Usable Against Others, Ranged) as a
>weapon? In other words, could you rob Iron Man of his armor suit
>or transform a martial artest's clothing into something bulky and
>difficult to fight in, like one of those baseball mascots' outfits?
>Could you change someone into clothing too heavy to move in? Could
>you use Instant Change to pick pockets or rob someone of their foci?
>Is Instant Change (Usable Against Others) even valid, or would you
>have to buy Transform? Just some thoughts... I think this might
>actually be a way to simulate some speedster tricks.
I'd say "yes and no". I would treat this as turning certain Inaccessible
Foci into Accessible ones -- allowing you to take the "full Turn" required
to remove a battlesuit, etc. from a character in a single Phase, but still
requiring a STR contest (ever try to get a young child dressed in something
they don't want to wear, and you'll have an idea of what you're up against
here).
If you don't want them to be able to resist at all, you're better off with
the Transform.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:36:18 +0000
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
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On 31 Jul 97 at 17:32, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
> At 11:14 PM 7/30/97 +0000, you wrote:
> >On 31 Jul 97 at 13:41, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
> >
> >> At 11:36 AM 7/29/97 +0000, you wrote:
> >> >On 29 Jul 97 at 15:34, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> really? what about homosexuality? or adultery? or use of drugs?
> >> >
> >> >All condemned by some societies, and accepted by others. Are you
> >> >saying that whether or not they are good, bad, or morally neutral is
> >> >_entirely_ cultural? That being homosexual is all right, if your
> >> >culture says so, _and_ killing homosexuals is all right, if your
> >> >culture says so?
> >> >
> >>
> >> how abour mass murderers? how about child molesters?
> >
> >How does that answer my question?
> >
> my point exactly! there IS no answer to such questions except in a
> subjective sence!
No, you dodged the question. You're still dodging the question.
I asked the question, "Does X have quality Q only in circumstance Y."
(X=killing homosexuals, Q = is wrong, Y= when society says so). Your
answer did not apply.
<snip>
> so you agree with me- it's a matter of opinion.
You seem to be under the impression that all opinions are equal. That
is ludicrous, and can easily be proven false.
Besides, it is not strictly a matter of opinion. It is also a matter
of definition. You do not seem to be able to tell the difference
between "evil" and "what society says is bad". If that is your
definition of "evil", then of course what society says is evil is
evil, by definition.
If you are claiming that the definition of "evil" is "what society
says is bad", then please say so. Your definition seems to change as
we talk. It is certainly unclear.
<snip>
> no, actually, i think you'll find that was the point- hot an cold
> are only measured on a relative scale,
If that is your point, you made it badly. You certainly appeared to
be saying that there is no good and evil, that all actions are
equally good and evil. You stated outright that criminals are as
innocent as their victims, and strongly implied that killing the SS
during WWII was as bad as the SS killing the Jews. That isn't arguing
for no absolutes (an opinion I generally think is correct), that is
an argument for no set standards at all.
> even though concepts like
> absolute zero sugest an absolute value- are you suggesting evil is
> simply complete lack of good?
Don't read too much into an analogy. If I argued that a
Vice-President is like a spare tire, you wouldn't suggest that I
believed he was toroidal and made of rubber.
> >> back in medievil times, all sorts of horrid stuff went on: are you
> >> suggesting everyone alive back then is evil? no, they were what
> >> society made them: i know you rambo types would rather pretend
> >> criminals deserved to be killed,
> >
> >I never claimed that I thought that anyone deserved to be killed. In
> >fact, no one in this thread said they would _ever_ kill, except you.
> >
>
> i used it as an example of who is evil, who deserves what, and why
> they deserve it. Frankly, this should have been blatantly obvious,
> and i doubt it wasn't.
No, it wasn't. You said we were "rambo types" who "pretend criminals
deserve to be killed". It wasn't an obvious example of who is good or
evil, it was attributing opinions to others that they had not
expressed, in an insulting way.
<snip>
>
> you miss the point again- define "crimes"! in some areas men
> are allowed to beat their wives once a month! isn't that criminal?
"Criminal" is arbitrary and cultural. However, I have never claimed
that "criminal" and "evil" are synonymous. Nor does any decent
dictionary. Against the law and morally wrong are not synomymous.
<snip>
> no, they aren't justifiable, just not fundamentally evil- they are
> evil, because evil is only a matter of our opinion.
Perhaps our problem is definition. You're definition of evil is not
the same as mine, therefore your "evil" is strictly a matter of
opinion. Please define "evil", so I know what you mean when you say
"evil".
<snip>
> no justification, actually, not in my opinion, and that's what
> counts, yes?
By your reasoning, if my opinion is that killing you isn't evil, then
it isn't. Do I understand you correctly?
<snip>
> >Yes. Motive is not, in itself, sufficient to make an evil act good.
> >
>
> what is there but motive? are you suggesting somebody who kills in
> self defence is as bad as a cold-blooded killer? what is really
> diffirent, if not motive?
How about, "The amount of harm done, and the necessity to do it to
prevent greater harm"? There are many ways to decide what is good and
what is evil. I still suggest that you tell me your definition, so I
can discuss this with you.
<snip>
>
> yes, *argued* but never, never *proven*- nothing is ever proven ,
> only argued, from a metaphysical point of view.
Who said "evil" had to be metaphysical? Please give me your
definition of "evil".
<snip>
> but they are immutable. . . . .they are relative:
Do you mean, "but they are mutable"?
> "evil is in the eye of the beholder" make lots more sence than the
> original version.
Definitely _not_. "Beauty" is a matter of taste. No person's taste is
superior to another, no school of taste is superior to another.
Opinion is another matter. Opinions, it can easily be proven, are not
equal.
Filksinger
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:36:18 +0000
Subject: Re: Instant Change as a Weapon
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
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On 31 Jul 97 at 15:01, Eric Burns wrote:
> Could you use Instant Change (Usable Against Others, Ranged) as a
> weapon?
No. It is much too cheap, and there is a power, already written for
this purpose (Transformation), which costs much more.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:48:49 -0400
From: seleena@fred.net (E. David Miller)
Subject: Re: Help! Polymorphic Shapeshifter
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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Well, Rob, I am sure that an innumerable horde of folks will show
up, before or after this reaches you and the list, to declare once and for
all that the tactics and ideas I am about to espouse are pure drivel, a
complete mockery of the Hero System Rules, and tantamount to rape, but I
will try anyway.
My suggestions would be as follows.
1 - Buy down all your characteristics, primary and otherwise, to the barest
minimum. If your GM will allow, buy down most of your primary
characteristics down zero, your strength to some negative level equal to a
complete zero lift capacity, etc. I wouldn't buy down your mental stats
much, if at all, on the basis that I don't think you want that kind of
hassle. Don't buy your speed down below a 1 either. And make sure you
have at least one or two points of stun and body just so that rules lawyers
amongst the group will not declare that you are completely incapable of
action for one reason or another. Now your character has no body, and is
completely formless, unless he takes a form. And, you now have a
significant increase in the total number of points available to cover the
rest of our work together. :)
2 - There are a few things the base character will need. Disguise skill.
Mimicry skill. Actual shapeshifting. Instant Change. If you really want
the character to be able to mimic the skills of character-types that are
copied, then he will need either several levels of cramming, or a suite of
mental powers and talents to allow him to pull it off. I would go for the
cramming, personally. Dependant upon the forgiving nature of the GM and
the campaign rules, you might actually be able to put all the necessaries
in a single EC together. Remember that his disguise and mimicry skills
would be infallible, and based on a characteristic of zero. Base roll of
9, two points to increase each step to reach a 19-, would cost 23 points
for each skill. Shapeshift being all forms, 0 End, Persistant, and very
possibly difficult to dispel (even more than once). The Instant change is
also important because it can allow you to shift your shape to a new one as
a zero phase action.
3 - Now comes the hard part. The construct that will allow you to mimic
the powers of whatever shape you have become. For this, to cover all the
bases as effictively, elegantly, etc., as possible, we use the VPP
(Variable Power Pool). Control Cost modifiers would include:
+1 Change as a zero phase action (the powers change based on whatever
form you take, as soon as you assume that form)
+1 No Skill Roll Required For the Change (this one is optional - you
might simply set it up to always require a disguise skill roll)
-1/2 Powers only change when form changes
-1/2 Powers only as appropriate to the form assumed
-1/2 Linked to Shapeshift (assumed for the pool, and for every power in
the pool)
Assuming you take all of these, the following math problem is now posed.
How large of a power pool can you buy. It works out like this.
X = The number of points in the power pool
Y = The number of points you have left for the character
X/2 = The base cost of the control cost for the power pool
Y = X + [X/2 * 3 / 2.5]
Y = X + [X/2 * 6 / 5]
Y = X + [6X/10]
Y = 16X/10
10Y = 16X
10*Y
---- = X
16
I know that there are many people out there who like the
flexibility of the HERO system, but sometimes are off-put by some of the
math involved, so I thought I would help out as best I could to simplify it
for you. I hope that this material has helped you.
David Miller
___________________________________________________________________________
| seleena@bigdog.-> |There are 3 temporal dimensions, just as there are 3 |
| ->fred.net |spatial; T, the passage of time; Tau, the changes in |
|-------------------|possible outcomes/decisions; Teh, the alternate bases|
| E. David Miller |of reality. Thus, all that ever has been dreamed, |
|-------------------|IS, somewhen. And somewhen, we are all simply a |
|Faith, and Dreams. |dream. Or, by perspective, a nightmare. |
|___________________|_____________________________________________________|
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:40:50 -0400
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-2,4-18,24-25,28-29,32-35,42-43,46-50
From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger)
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Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
On Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:41:03 +1000 jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au transcribes,
then writes:
Are you actually saying that
>>kiddie-porn is fine, so long as you are in Japan, and wrong, so long
>>as you are in the US?
>
>no, i'm saying that it's neither totally wrong or totally right- back
>in medievil times,
>all sorts of horrid stuff went on: are you suggesting everyone alive
>back then is evil?
>no, they were what society made them: i know you rambo types would
>rather pretend
>criminals deserved to be killed, but as it turns out they're just as
>"""innocent"""
>as anyone else. . .
Yes, society has an impact on us, and we can impact society. Some
children have been raised in a terrible environment and have become
wonderful adults. Some children have been raised in wonderful
environments and become terrible adults. Some criminals deserve to be
killed, IMO, in part so they cannot murder again. Note that the words
"kill" and "murder" do not always mean exactly the same thing.
A local (Wayne County, Detroit) jail was named after Sgt. William
Dickerson, slain by an inmate who was a convicted murderer. There is no
death penalty in Michigan.
A few years ago, Canada did not want to extradite U.S. felons sentenced
to death. My reply to that was to suggest sending them all death row
inmates in the U.S.
It seems to me that most morals and taboos evolved to protect society.
Later, you discussed the question of motive. You've heard the road to
hell is paved with good intentions. Circumstance can be important too,
not just motive. Remember the story a few years ago about the Louisianna
woman who screamed in fear as a (asian) stranger approached her door, and
her husband shot the young man? The victim was trying to find a
Halloween party. This was a crime on the resident's part, though he was
found not guilty. I found this whole affair thoroughly repulsive.
Granted, some things are immoral, not crimes, depending on where the act
is commited, since crime is breaking the (local) law, whereas certain
immoral behavior is not illegal.
>
>
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Re: Moral Relativism (was: 4 color principles)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:28:14 -0400 (EDT)
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> >To say that people do not always agree on what exactly constitutes right
> >and wrong, good and evil, is to state the obvious. To conclude from this
> >that there is no good or evil, except in the subjective opinions of
> >individuals, is not just foolish but potentially destructive. Please do
> >not expect us to believe that whether the Holocaust was wrong is a matter
> >of opinion.
> >
>
> foolish to say, because people like you seem to think opinions are not valid,
> despite it being the most important thing in the universe-
>
"people like you"?
For someone who doesn't believe in absolutes, you sure are good at
pigeonholing people. I never said that opinions are invalid or
unimportant. I just think that there exists a world outside of our view
of it, a world with truths that are not determined by our opinions.
> No, i'm simply suggesting that it wasn't wrong for a bunch of nazi psyco's-
> when it comes down to it, all you have is numbers-
No, I have the knowledge that shoving men, women, and children into ovens
because they are Jewish is wrong. This is my opinion, but it is also a
truth. I can't give you a modus ponens or contrapositive to prove this
beyond doubt, but I don't need to. This is obvious to anyone with a moral
compass, even you who dismisses this knowledge as an opinion.
> what i'm suggesting is
> that
> number count- some people in the medical industry believe in euthanasia,
> if i consider it abhorent is it my opinion or the 'truth'? god and evil are
> *fundamentally* subjective- they exist only in our mind, as do our other
> opinions,
> memories of those we cherish, books we never get down on paper. . . .
> all the good stuff, actually.. . *G*
>
We are on opposite sides of the street, philosophically. I am consolled
by the knowledge that very few people agree with your way of thinking (and
thank God for that). I suggest we agree to disagree, lest this listserv
turns into sci.philosophy.epistemology.
-Eric
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 17:50:29 +0000
Subject: Re: Instant Change as a Weapon
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On 31 Jul 97 at 13:36, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Incidentally, instant change cannot be used to change into a focus
> either (i.e. iron man cannot use instant change to put on his
> armor). Only in hero ID armor _could_ be put on in this way.
No where in the BBB or elsewhere does it ever state that Foci take
time to don or remove _for the character who bought them_. Consider a
magic ring. It should take time for me to take it off of someone
else's finger, but why should it take time to take it off my own?
If the Inaccessible part of the Focus limitation worked this way,
then it wouldn't be a smaller limitation than Accessible.
BTW, while Only in hero ID is specifically described as being used
for armor, etc., that isn't a focus, there is no reason why a
character can't have a OIF _and_ a Only in hero ID.
Consider a character similar to Thor in the comics. He has two forms,
Mr. Wimpy and Mr. He-Man. Mr. He-Man has a weapon that always returns
to his hand when he throws it, but which he cannot summon. It only
returns when he _throws_ it.
Now, the hammer only works for Mr. He-Man. Mr. Wimpy cannot use it.
This would be a OIF _and_ a Only in Hero ID.
For those focuses that are also costumes, I allow both. Why? Because
you can put on the magic ring, wield the mystic sword, etc., without
wearing the costume and taking on a heroic ID, but you cannot wear
full body armor without wearing the costume. This can be a
significant distinction, especially if the villain has your weapon
and you in your secret identity, or similar situations.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Instant Change as a Weapon
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:01:43 -0400 (EDT)
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Could you use Instant Change (Usable Against Others, Ranged) as a
weapon? In other words, could you rob Iron Man of his armor suit
or transform a martial artest's clothing into something bulky and
difficult to fight in, like one of those baseball mascots' outfits?
Could you change someone into clothing too heavy to move in? Could
you use Instant Change to pick pockets or rob someone of their foci?
Is Instant Change (Usable Against Others) even valid, or would you
have to buy Transform? Just some thoughts... I think this might
actually be a way to simulate some speedster tricks.
-Eric
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Instant Change as a Weapon
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 16:08:35 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: VTSFFC
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> Could you use Instant Change (Usable Against Others, Ranged) as a
> weapon? In other words, could you rob Iron Man of his armor suit
No. I generally hold that Instant Change can't be used to affect anything
that costs points. It's *way* too cheap for the effects obtained.
I usually would require some sort of Power Attack, probably Transform
Heck. Even against supers that don't have foci, it can be devastating.
How would anybody maintain a Secret ID in a 4-color game against a weapon
like that?
> actually be a way to simulate some speedster tricks.
>
For Speedster stuff, I've seen players buy Change Environment
and/or Transforms for "Speeedster Tricks".
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:36:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Instant Change as a Weapon
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Eric Burns writes:
> Could you use Instant Change (Usable Against Others, Ranged) as a
> weapon? In other words, could you rob Iron Man of his armor suit
> or transform a martial artest's clothing into something bulky and
> difficult to fight in, like one of those baseball mascots' outfits?
> Could you change someone into clothing too heavy to move in? Could
> you use Instant Change to pick pockets or rob someone of their foci?
> Is Instant Change (Usable Against Others) even valid, or would you
> have to buy Transform? Just some thoughts... I think this might
> actually be a way to simulate some speedster tricks.
Instant change cannot do any of these things; instant change usable against
others is almost always objectionable (use transform). Incidentally, instant
change cannot be used to change into a focus either (i.e. iron man cannot use
instant change to put on his armor). Only in hero ID armor _could_ be put on
in this way.
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 16:40:18 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Instant Change as a Weapon
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>Could you use Instant Change (Usable Against Others, Ranged) as a
>weapon? In other words, could you rob Iron Man of his armor suit
>or transform a martial artest's clothing into something bulky and
>difficult to fight in, like one of those baseball mascots' outfits?
The first sounds like a Transform attack against Iron Man's Foci, and the
second sounds like a Ranged DEX Drain. Instant Change can't take powers away
from a character, unless it also fulfills some sort of Accidental Change
circumstance. Even heroes who use Instant Change to transform into their
'Hero ID' shouldn't be subject to this kind of sillyness. UAO is a Stop Sign
Advantage for a reason - it's very often abusive.
>Could you change someone into clothing too heavy to move in?
Nope, that's an Entangle.
>Could
>you use Instant Change to pick pockets or rob someone of their foci?
Nope, that's Telekinesis or Transform.
>Is Instant Change (Usable Against Others) even valid, or would you
>have to buy Transform?
Buy a Transform, and at least a Minor one if you plan to affect foci -
Cosmetic Transforms aren't enough.
>Just some thoughts... I think this might
>actually be a way to simulate some speedster tricks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"GINA, do know how RUDE it is to build a THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE in someone
else's house?"
-NHS #56
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gdighton@mail.elite.net>
From: "Garth Dighton" <gdighton@elite.net>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:43:41 +0000
Subject: Re: Help! Polymorphic Shapeshifter
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On 29 Jul 97 at 18:13, Rob Leuschen wrote:
> Hey guys and gals, I need some help. I'm trying to make a
> shapeshifter....now I seem to be making it more and more complicated
> everytime I change things and read more rules.
> This guy is a bioconstruct....if I can possible do so, I want him to
> actually have _NO_ actual real shape. That is, he can be anyone or
> anything, but has no shape of his own. However, this seems to bring to
> many things into play.
[snip]
> I want to actually be able to "turn into", not just mimic, people if
> need be. Thus, I can turn into a security guard, and have his shape,
> mannerisms, and total package so to speak. Now this I can do easily I
> think, with skills such as mimicry, liguist, stuff like universal
> translator and ambidexterity, and the powers of shapeshifting, and the
> like.
>
> However, I also want to be able to turn into animals, mythalogical
> beings, and even something like a rock. Now, this guy is no brick or
> energy projector or mentalist. He just is something normal....with a
> twist I'm hoping. For example, if he needs strength and armor, he turns
> into a rhino, and gets from a power pool of some kind the powers of
> armor, extra str, and perhaps HA, +con, and other such SUITABLE things.
> Now these aren't exactly going to raise him up to brick like str and
> such, I want limits. Now on the other end, (rhino uses density and
> growth too), I want to be an insect too....so shrink, etc. will be
> applied.
>
> Now, how do I do this? Make a power pool like a gadget pool - but my
> "body" is actually what changes? There are limits remember.
>
I fooled around with this concept once for a character called The
Emulator. As I recall, I used a Variable Power Pool whose change was
Linked to Shapechange (into anything). This includes the Limitations
of No Choice of When Powers Change and No Choice of How Powers
Change, sort of like the Mimic Pool. You major limits are the number
of points in your pool, so make this large (probably spend most of
your points.) For something like this, I see no real problem with
purchasing Characteristics from the Pool. If you want your character
to always be imitating something else, then give him a Psychological
Limitation to that effect (this sort of follows the Limitation used
for a Rogue write-up I once saw that used this to explain why her
Mimic Pool always activated when she touched someone).
Overall, this seemed to work pretty well (although I don't have the
Emulator's writeup anymore). At any rate, you can give something
along these lines a try.
Garth Dighton
gdighton@elite.net
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:54:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Instant Change as a Weapon
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-8,11-12,15-16,18-22
From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger)
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As stated elsewhere, Usable Against Others is easily abused.
Increasing Local Gravity: Density Increase, UAO, mass only (-?): more
apt. TK.
Paranoia: Danger Sense, UAO
Insomnia: Lightsleep, UAO
The Coroner: villain who leaves death certificate on his victim's body,
after using Simulate Death, UAO on the poor sap, who is likely to be
buried or cremated alive.
Etc. The BBB restricts use of Power Lims & Frameworks on Talents, but
neglected to bar Advantages. It should have simply restricted Power
Modifiers.
Bonus question: what Lim. value would you give the 'mass only'
restriction on the above Density Increase?
We're leaving the state tomorrow on my vacation, so
Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
X-Sender: ghost@softfarm.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 00:01:19 -0500
From: ghost@softfarm.com (Bryce Berggren)
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
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At 11:27 PM 7/29/97 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Bryce Berggren wrote:
>
>> On this note, I refer you to the trailer for STARSHIP TROOPERS ... where none
>> of the Troopers seem to be wearing power-armor, the whole friggin' point of
>> the book!!! AIIIIIGHHH!!
>
>There's more to the book Starship Troopers than the power armor. I'd say
>the point of the book is "why do I fight?". It also is recognizably a
>product of the late 50s, with the Bugs a handy stand in for the Russians.
I'll take the opportunity now to respond to this and all the other people
who corrected me on the point of Starship Troopers ...
Yeah, yeah, I knew that. My statement was badly phrased. The "point" of
Starship Troopers was in fact a political statement on moral pragmatism,
etc. etc. But what I was trying to say is that the powered armor represented
the easiest, flashiest, most difficult-to-miss point of uniqueness about
Starship Troopers--in effect, what made the starship troopers "starship
troopers" ... if Hollywood managed to miss /that/, what else could they
have gotten right?
H. G.
X-Sender: ghost@softfarm.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 00:01:22 -0500
From: ghost@softfarm.com (Bryce Berggren)
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 12:29 AM 7/30/97 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>a) I missed Puck badly, and it was great to see him in action again,
>
>Agreed, love the Puckster.
Y'know, why should Marrina be the only Flighter who got to "graduate" to
being an Avenger? Kurt Busiek, are you listening?? Save Puck from the
ignominy of a quickly-cancelled title!! Puck for Avenger!!!
>Jeez, I almost vomited when I saw what they did to Sasquatch. And Manbot has
>got to be the single DUMBEST character design I've ever seen for a superhero
>group. Another thing that got me was the 'new' suit they handed Heather.
>'Controls geo-thermal forces' - uh-huh. And just what was wrong with the
>classic suit? The old 'electromagnetic' suit at least had a reasonable
>explanation behind it. Just how do you go about controlling 'geo-thermal
>forces' with technology (this kind of handwaving is lots easier with mutant
>powers or magic).
Manbot, under the old Marvel rules, must have "Stand There and Do Nothing"
at Amazing rank. As for the geothermal thing ... yeah, it LOOKS cool, but
you got a point--how exactly do you summon geothermal powers on a higher-
than-ground-level floor of a multistory building, anyway?
>Not a good plan, making everything seem so awful right from the first issue.
>Makes me want to follow the next six issues, yeah! (NOT!)
Upon finally reading issue #2 (thanks to Vox, kudos), I agree totally. Either
let me in TOTALLY on what's going on, to give me a decent sense of dramatic
irony, and root for the characters to figure things out, or don't tell me
ANYTHING, and let all the menacing stuff happen behind the scenes. This
method of storytelling leaves me with the distinct impression that I've
somehow missed issues 1.5 through 1.58954 or something ...
>>Of course, I can't find any issues BESIDES #1, so I guess I'll never know. :(
>
>I saw the cover of #2, looks like The Master is back (a good character, but
>I'm sure they screwed him up too...).
They did, sort of. Try Heroes for Hire ... they're doing a slightly better job
with him. :)
H. G.
X-Sender: ghost@softfarm.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 00:01:25 -0500
From: ghost@softfarm.com (Bryce Berggren)
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers
Cc: champ-l@omg.org, champ-l@omg.org
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At 06:00 PM 7/30/97 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>
>> I think I'll probably go see the film, but I won't be expecting it to
>> conform to the book very well. Instead, I'm going to try and enjoy
>> it on its own merits. It might be a pretty decent film in its own
>> right.
>
>Which is my opinion. I'm going to try and forget that I read a book
>called "Starship Troopers" and just enjoy the movie. I at least want to
>see the SPFX (computer animated Bugs! Cool!) on the big screen.
True. The BIG BUG (tm) in the trailer was pretty damn cool. And hey ...
I told myself for months that I wasn't going to see Con Air, that it
was just another stupid plane-hostage movie like about a dozen over the
last 3-4 years. Got talked into seeing it anyway, enjoyed it anyway.
H. G.
X-Sender: ghost@softfarm.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 00:01:27 -0500
From: ghost@softfarm.com (Bryce Berggren)
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers
Cc: champ-l@omg.org, champ-l@omg.org
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At 03:42 AM 7/31/97 -0700, Darrin Kelley wrote:
>Todd Hanson wrote:
>
>> Let me get this straight. You've already decided not to see a movie
>> because it doesn't follow the book. A book you've never even read.
>> Kind of closed minded, isnt it? So tell me Darrin, if your 'friend'
>> hadnt pointed out to you that it wasnt following the book, would you
>> have gone to see it?
>
> I greatly dislike movies that butcher novels. I have seen quite
>enough of them done in the past to convince me that Hollywood couldn't
>do a good adaptation of any novel, even if their lives depended on it.
Princess Bride? Gone With the Wind?
Also, can you blame Hollywood for something like Johnny Mnemonic, where
Gibson himself "butchered" the story?
>> Personally I could care less if it follows the book (guess what, I've
>> never read it either). I'm going to wait and base my opinion on the
>> MOVIE, not on what makes me look cool in front of my friends. I thought
>> the movie trailer looked cool as hell. I'd be going to see it if I had
>> to go alone.
>
> My opinions are based on my own impressions. Not that of my friends.
>I am not some mindless sot that lets other people do his thinking for
>him. When I was told that it was going to deviate greatly from the book,
>from friends who were working on the production crew, I took it as fact.
So you formed your opinions in this case on your own impressions of what
your friends told you. Ooooookkaayyy ...
Personal issues aside, bottom line is that if you haven't read the book,
you don't know that the book didn't suck (or at least was unworkable as
a film) and that the film was actually better, or good in its own way
(I'd mention the Crow here, but that'd just get me slammed from the
folks that were fanatic about the comic).
>> Aren't you the same guy that just got done lecturing us on how current
>> mainstream comicbooks are all crap? Kind of makes me wonder how many of
>> them you've actually read. Of course, bashing anything mainstream IS
>> the 'in' thing to do these days, isnt it?
>
> Yes, I am. And the stack of comic boxes in my closet are a testiment
>to my long association with comics. I average a $100 a month bill at the
>local comic book store that proves it.
I'll see your $100 and raise you ... ahh, never mind.
> I bashed most of the mainstream comics writers for good reason. They
>seem to exhibit almost no imagination what-so-ever.
I find it ironic that Liefeld, having been drummed out of Marvel for his
run on Avengers and Cap, and persona non grata at Image, turns to an
independent company (ahh, those bastions of originality and quality, our
last hope for creative genius in the decaying intellectual world of comics)
to plagiarize Cap and ruin what reputation Fighting American has.
BTW ... Busiek, Lobdell, David, Waid, Marz, Moore, Ostrander, Kavanagh,
Stern, Byrne, Hama, Morrison, DeFalco, and Kelly have yet to convince me
that the comics mainstream is /entirely/ a wasteland ... exactly who were
you talking about, again?
>Instead, they follow
>extremely contrived worn out plotlines that have been done to death with
>the same characters for years. Was there anything new with the Death Of
>Superman? No, it had been almost a yearly event prior to the media hype.
Did you READ the whole Death of Superman storyline? I'm not going to
defend the whole killing off of Supes, but the Reign of the Supermen was
HARDLY a "yearly event", and quite a few original ideas were brought up
through the whole thing.
>The clone mess with Spiderman? A recycled storyline that should have
>remained dead and forgotten.
I think Stan Lee said it best ... it was an interesting idea that took
too many twists and spun out of control.
>The various cosmic level crisis' that have
>happened during the last few years in both Marvel and DC? They had
>already been done to death. So I asked: What type of imagination does it
>take to simply recycle the same old story and throw in come minor
>changes to make it appear fresh? None. Zero.
A bit more than it does to draw a chick with lots of gazonga and very
little clothing, and throw her up against some nasty-clawed slavering
creature in a full-issue fight with no point ... which covers just
over half of the independent titles (not including Japanese imports)
in my last copy of Previews.
Onslaught may have totally sucked, but at least it required some
convoluted thinking to come up with (and more convoluted thinking to
get them out of it, if David's been saddled with the job :) ).
> I do acknowledge that there are a few good books at each of the
>mainstream comic book companies. I have never tried to deny it. But
> they seem to exist in spite of the intentions of the companies
> themselves. Who would rather promote sales over a good product.
Pop quiz. Busiek's Astro City wins an Eisner. Liefeld gets critically
panned for Avengers despite fairly brisk sales due to hype. So ...
who's doing Avengers next year?
H. G.
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gdighton@mail.elite.net>
From: "Garth Dighton" <gdighton@elite.net>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:24:03 +0000
Subject: Re: electronic book UMA
Priority: normal
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On 31 Jul 97 at 1:05, boaters@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> I recently bought the electronic version of the Ultimate Martial
> Artist. Unfortunately, It was missing a few things. The first thing
> that it did not have was the cover of the book version. This was some
> really good artwork and I had hoped that it would be included.
> Furthermore, the graphic on page 97 is missing.
>
> I still can log on to the Herogames page so I thought that I would
> try to reach anyone here instead. I just want to know whether or not
> this is only my case or has anyone else had this problem.
>
> Darin
I bought the Ultimate Martial Artist and the Ultimate Super Mage
recently, and I can't even unzip them onto my computer. Neither my
official PKZIP32 program nor the PKUNZIP on the disks seem to be
working. I have been trying to get to the Hero Games page to ask them
for help, but they've been down, as we all know. If anyone knows what
the problem is, I would appreciate some help.
Thank You,
Garth Dighton
gdighton@elite.net
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:00:48 +0000
Subject: Re: Instant Change as a Weapon
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
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On 1 Aug 97 at 9:34, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> He said it.
> RUN FOR THE HILLS, EVERYONE! THE OIHID FOCUS DEBATE IS BACK!
> ;-]
Well,...gee! I didn't mean to do _that_.:)
Seriously, I didn't mean to restart an old debate. It just seemed to
be disadvantageous to have to become a hero in order to pick up a
particular focus and use it.
Sounds like an "it's up to the GM" problem. I would allow it,
though. It isn't specifically forbidden, and I can see why the two
are different limitations, limiting in different ways.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:54:39 +0000
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
Reply-to: guyhoyle@iname.com
Priority: normal
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> Yeah, yeah, I knew that. My statement was badly phrased. The "point" of
> Starship Troopers was in fact a political statement on moral pragmatism,
> etc. etc. But what I was trying to say is that the powered armor represented
> the easiest, flashiest, most difficult-to-miss point of uniqueness about
> Starship Troopers--in effect, what made the starship troopers "starship
> troopers" ... if Hollywood managed to miss /that/, what else could they
> have gotten right?
Many, many factors go into making a movie. If you'd put everything
in the novel into movie form, you'd likely wind up with a 10-12 hour
movie. The combat armor probably proved the easiest element to
remove without affecting the basic story. I'm waiting until I see it
until I pronounce judgement.
Guy
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:31:48 +0000
Subject: PBEM
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Anyone interested in a PBEM game? I am just starting one, and I have
my website up. Anyone interested should check out
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/2816/
I already have a few players, but I will accept a few more. Expect
some background vignettes to show up on the website soon. Players, of
course, may read these only if they agree to keep player and
character knowledge separate. (Unless you think of a real good
storyline that might come from asking just the right embarrassing
question. Ask me, in that case.)
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:19:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Comics Code Authority (was: 4 color principles)
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On Fri, 1 Aug 1997, Bryce Berggren wrote:
> I'll take the opportunity now to respond to this and all the other people
> who corrected me on the point of Starship Troopers ...
>
> Yeah, yeah, I knew that. My statement was badly phrased. The "point" of
> Starship Troopers was in fact a political statement on moral pragmatism,
> etc. etc. But what I was trying to say is that the powered armor represented
> the easiest, flashiest, most difficult-to-miss point of uniqueness about
> Starship Troopers--in effect, what made the starship troopers "starship
> troopers" ... if Hollywood managed to miss /that/, what else could they
> have gotten right?
Probably nothing.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:23:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers
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On Fri, 1 Aug 1997, Bryce Berggren wrote:
> > I greatly dislike movies that butcher novels. I have seen quite
> >enough of them done in the past to convince me that Hollywood couldn't
> >do a good adaptation of any novel, even if their lives depended on it.
>
> Princess Bride? Gone With the Wind?
A note here, Willam Goldman wrote his own adaption for the film version of
"Princess Bride".
> Also, can you blame Hollywood for something like Johnny Mnemonic, where
> Gibson himself "butchered" the story?
Eyugh, did you *have* to bring that one up.
I like my friend's review of the film: In the furture, there will be no
lighting!
> Personal issues aside, bottom line is that if you haven't read the book,
> you don't know that the book didn't suck (or at least was unworkable as
> a film) and that the film was actually better, or good in its own way
> (I'd mention the Crow here, but that'd just get me slammed from the
> folks that were fanatic about the comic).
Hey, I like both the film and comic versions of the Crow. Both have their
own merits to stand on.
> Pop quiz. Busiek's Astro City wins an Eisner. Liefeld gets critically
> panned for Avengers despite fairly brisk sales due to hype. So ...
> who's doing Avengers next year?
John Byrne?
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Instant Change as a Weapon
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 01 Aug 1997 12:25:27 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "EB" == Eric Burns <burns@usmcug.usm.maine.edu> writes:
EB> Could you use Instant Change (Usable Against Others, Ranged) as a
EB> weapon?
No.
EB> In other words, could you rob Iron Man of his armor suit or transform a
EB> martial artest's clothing into something bulky and difficult to fight
EB> in, like one of those baseball mascots' outfits?
No, if you want to deprive someone of their powers you use suppress or
dispell.
EB> Could you change someone into clothing too heavy to move in?
Entangle.
EB> Could you use Instant Change to pick pockets or rob someone of their
EB> foci?
Telekenesis.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
\
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:34:40 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 4 color principles
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:31 PM 7/31/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>> Could we please get through this discussion without it devolving into yet
>>another asinine "my philosophy is inherently better than yours simply
>>because I say it is" argument?
>
>*sigh* pay attention! my quite obvious point is that EVERYBODY'S opinion is
equal!!
>c'mon, the concept may be inherently paradoxical, but so's everything else
in real life! *g*
If everybody's opinion is equal, then why are you arguing against
everybody's but your own on this matter?
---
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:34:46 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: electronic book UMA
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
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At 01:05 AM 7/31/97 -0400, boaters@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> I still can log on to the Herogames page so I thought that I would
>try to reach anyone here instead. I just want to know whether or not
>this is only my case or has anyone else had this problem.
You can? I can't; I still get a "No DNS entry" error. Are you getting
through when I'm not, or are you just speaking theoretically (that is, "when
they get their website reconnected")?
---
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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:34:48 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Instant Change as a Weapon
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 03:01 PM 7/31/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote:
>Could you use Instant Change (Usable Against Others, Ranged) as a
>weapon? In other words, could you rob Iron Man of his armor suit
>or transform a martial artest's clothing into something bulky and
>difficult to fight in, like one of those baseball mascots' outfits?
>Could you change someone into clothing too heavy to move in? Could
>you use Instant Change to pick pockets or rob someone of their foci?
>Is Instant Change (Usable Against Others) even valid, or would you
>have to buy Transform? Just some thoughts... I think this might
>actually be a way to simulate some speedster tricks.
There are differing schools of thought on this.
Most folks insist that the Instant Change UAO construct is an inherent
"rules rape" that shouldn't be allowed by any GM with a brain.
I would allow the construct, but with certain stipulations. The primary
one is that the Power can only be used to affect the other character's
*clothing*, meaning that of the applications you listed above only the trick
of changing a martial artist's outfit into a baseball mascot's outfit would
be allowed. The other effects would all require different game mechanics.
I *might* allow Instant Change UAO to take away a character's Powers if
the affected character also had Instant Change with a similar Special
Effect, but this would be arbitrated on a case-by-case basis.
However, with the right Special Effects, Instant Change UAO *could* (IMG)
change Iron Man's armor into a tutu -- though it would be a full
body-covering tutu with jet boots, repulsor beams, and all those other
little extras.
---
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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:34:48 -0700 (PDT)
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From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Instant Change as a Weapon
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 05:50 PM 7/31/97 +0000, Filksinger wrote:
>BTW, while Only in hero ID is specifically described as being used
Oh no... don't say it...
>for armor, etc., that isn't a focus, there is no reason why a
Please don't say it...
>character can't have a OIF _and_ a Only in hero ID.
He said it.
RUN FOR THE HILLS, EVERYONE! THE OIHID FOCUS DEBATE IS BACK! ;-]
---
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Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 10:16:09 -0700
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 12:23 PM 8/1/97 -0400, Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 1 Aug 1997, Bryce Berggren wrote:
>
>> Also, can you blame Hollywood for something like Johnny Mnemonic, where
>> Gibson himself "butchered" the story?
>
>Eyugh, did you *have* to bring that one up.
>
>I like my friend's review of the film: In the furture, there will be no
>lighting!
Someone at work had one of the movie posters for this treat, it featured K.
Reves standing there, looking dull as always, and above his head letters
proclaimed: "The Ultimate Hard Drive"
Well someone added a word balloon to the poster, of him saying "Abort,
Retry, Fail?" :)
>> Personal issues aside, bottom line is that if you haven't read the book,
>> you don't know that the book didn't suck (or at least was unworkable as
>> a film) and that the film was actually better, or good in its own way
>> (I'd mention the Crow here, but that'd just get me slammed from the
>> folks that were fanatic about the comic).
>
>Hey, I like both the film and comic versions of the Crow. Both have their
>own merits to stand on.
I'd agree on the first movie, they did an admirable job of trying to make a
whole movie out of the pieces they were left with. The second movie was
pointless goth trype. (IMNSHO) :)
>> Pop quiz. Busiek's Astro City wins an Eisner. Liefeld gets critically
>> panned for Avengers despite fairly brisk sales due to hype. So ...
>> who's doing Avengers next year?
>
>John Byrne?
Ugh! No, I hate what Byrne's done to Wonder Woman, BTW.
No, Busiek, currently writing Thunderbolts, is going to be writing
Avengers, and Iron Man for Marvel. (Thunderbolts is a great comic, btw) :)
-Nic
+------------------------------------------------------+
| naneiden@iswest.com |
| Justice, Like Lightning, Thunderbolts! |
| http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/thunder.html |
| Costumed Heroines |
| http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/ |
+------------------------------------------------------+
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: "Stephen B. Mann" <sm6439@cnsvax.albany.edu>
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 14:23:06 -0400
Subject: Ars Magica --> Hero
Newsgroups: october.hero
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Does anyone know of an Ars Magica to Hero conversion system? I just
started a Fantasy Hero game, and a possible player wants to use the Ars
magic system for his mage character. I've got no problem with that, but
I'm not quite sure how to do the conversion.
--
Stephen B. Mann sm6439@cnsvax.albany.edu
SUNY Learning Network http://sln1.esc.edu
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: (Champ) Help Req w/ Character Design: Shrinking E.Proj (Sylvia)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:47:50 -0700 (PDT)
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Hello;
I've got a character I'm trying to fit to a game I'm joining
without making it unbalanced, overly powerful, or any of that stuff.
The GM's rules state that no power may have more than 60 active points.
And no EC's over 120 total active points.
The character concept is a shrinker who gets more powerful as she
shrinks. Shrinking for this individual is an innate ability, so it wouldn't
turn off if stunned. However other powers would. The character also has a
weakness to mind altering substances; anything from LSD to caffiene.
I've been having some trouble getting a passable version sent off
so I thought I'd take the character here and see if I could get some
advice on how I should do it.
If my GM reads this list; this is not an attempt to side-step you
and get arguments to use against you. It's an attempt to find out other
options I haven't yet thought of so I can propose them to you till we get
a version that will work for the game.
The current in work version is listed below:
Followed with notes on what I think I still need to change.
The format is due to it being copied from a MS-Excell form.
Character Name: Nymph (Sylvia Chan)
Characteristics
Val Char Base Pts Rolls
30 STR 10 13 15 (Str above 10 is based on Shrinking 1/2)
25 DEX 10 32 14 (Dex above 12 is based on Shrinking 1/2)
18 CON 10 16
10 BODY 10 0
18 INT 10 8 13
11 EGO 10 2 11
13 PRE 10 3 12
28 COM 10 9
6 PD 6 0
4 ED 4 0
5 SPD 3.5 15
10 REC 10 0
36 END 36 0
34 STUN 34 0
Characteristic Cost: 118
Power Cost: 120
TOTAL COST: 238
Disad
Pts Character Disadvantages
20 PSYCH: Follows Heroic Code (Strong)
20 PSYCH: Environmentalist (Strong)
10 PSYCH: Disdains / Dislikes ALL Drugs (even Alcohol, Tobacco, Aspirin, etc.)
10 D.F: Unatural Beauty, She is always noticed and often stared at. She literally 'radiates' a visable aura.
10 Public ID: Sylvia Chan is a well known public figure. Something of a Teen Idol
15 REP: Heroic Do-Gooder, Teen Idol. Adored by millions 14-
10 ENRAGED: At Killers/ Killing. To include any overly violent or sadistic acts. 14- rec 11-
10 ENRAGED: At Pushers, Drug Dealers, Those who prey on children and such. 11- rec 11-
15 SUSC: Mind Altering Drugs (inc. Alcohol, Tobacco, many medicines, etc) 3d6/minute drain to shrinking
10 WATCHED: Lumber Groups, EPA, Environmental Groups. All want to use her to their gain, she is constantly being contacted by these groups. 14-
10 VULN: 2x Effect from Drugs. These things upset the balance between mortal and Dryad in her system.
10 VULN: 2x Stun From Bio-Energy, Nature-Magic, Dryad like powers
:Base Disadvantages
:Experience Spent
150 :TOTAL DISADVANTAGES
OCV: 8 DCV: 8 ECV: 4 1
Power Total Total EC Base END/
Cost Adv Dis Cost Cost Roll Power Description
5 5 EC: Shrinking
15 1 5 10 Shrinking 1 Level (Persistant)
25 1/2 5 20 Shrinking +2 Levels (0 End)
7 1/2 1/2 5 10 Shrinking +1 Level (0 End, Full Phase to use)
17 1/2 25 0 EC: Bio-Energy Conversion (Power limited by current level of Shrinking)
17 1/2 25 50 6 EB: Bio-Blast 10d6EB vs. ED (Power limited by current level of Shrinking)
18 1/2 1/2 25 35 0 FF: Bio-Shield 16PD, 19ED Force Field 0END (Power limited by current level of Shrinking)
21 1/2 32 2 FLIGHT: Bio-Energy 16" Flight (Power limited by current level of Shrinking)
7 1/2 10 REGEN: 1 Body Regeneration (Need to be at Shrinking level 2+ to use)
2 1 5 POW DEF: 5 pts, Protects shrinking only
11 11 Something
120 :Total Powers
NOTE: At no Shrinking she has no powers.
From Just under full to 1/2 size powers are at 25%.
from 1/2 to 1/4 size, powers are at 50%.
1/4 to 1/8 powers at 75%.
1/8 to 1/16 powers at full strength.
Just under full height is defined as a height which is vissably
obvious to any who have seen her before. Her base height is 5'3". So I'm
assuming 'just under' to be 5'. Should it be smaller/larger?
Building Notes:
I think I'll move the Str into the EC, so it doesn't affect
figured characteristics. Or get TK-no range. This fits better. Leaving
it to affect figured characteristics makes her a little too powerful for
a 250 pt game.
Other ideas include splitting the EB,FF, and Flight out like the
Shrinking was. Or putting the Shrinking back together into 1 power.
If I did this, I'd probably up the EB to 12d6 so that it split out to
3,6,9,12 across the levels of shrinking.
I considered putting a side effect into higher levels of the shrinking,
but couldn't come up with a sensible one.
Does POW def protect me from my Susc? I don't want it to, that's
supposed to be her 'fatal flaw'. Her krytonite.
The Com is so absurdley high to reflect her inhuman nature. I
ussually build attractive female around 14-16, 18 for very beautiful...
Options ruled out:
This GM has ruled out making all levels of shrinking persistant and
then just having the powers say linked to shrinking, even with the susc.
So that option is out. It was my original configuration.
Character concept:
Sylvia is half Human, half Dryad. Her father died when she was young,
and her mother left for the faerie world when she was only 10. She's been
in state custody ever since. As a super she was handed over to a 'local'
super group so she would learn to deal with that aspect of herself. She's
become a very popular teen Idol since. At this point in her life she is
16 years old.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Rook
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:10:45 -0400
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: (Champ) Help Req w/ Character Design: Shrinking E.Proj (Sylvia)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> I've got a character I'm trying to fit to a game I'm joining
> without making it unbalanced, overly powerful, or any of that stuff.
I would say there are a couple of questionable constructs in this character;
on that basis, I wouldn't allow her as written.
> The character concept is a shrinker who gets more powerful as she
> shrinks. Shrinking for this individual is an innate ability, so it wouldn't
> turn off if stunned. However other powers would.
Point 1. As written, there is no drawback to the character's Shrinking (it
doesn't cost END, doesn't limit her movement, etc.). In fact, it's really
advantageous, since she becomes /much/ more hard to hit. Thus, I would not
give a Limitation for "power level based on Shrinking", since the
circumstances under which you would not be shrunk are rare at best (facing AOE
Double Knockback Man? :-).
> The character also has a
> weakness to mind altering substances; anything from LSD to caffiene.
As an aside, I'd want this better defined: adrenalin? sugar?
> 10 PSYCH: Disdains / Dislikes ALL Drugs (even Alcohol, Tobacco, Aspirin,
> etc.)
This sets off warning flags as a "group breaker" disad. If she gets upset at
anyone who drinks coffee, this could be a problem for the group.
> 5 5 EC: Shrinking
> 15 1 5 10 Shrinking 1 Level (Persistant)
> 25 1/2 5 20 Shrinking +2 Levels (0 End)
> 7 1/2 1/2 5 10 Shrinking +1 Level (0 End, Full Phase to use)
This is not a valid Elemental Control in my book: mainly because it is not a
special effect around which her powers are based. You'd have to tie this into
the other EC (with one big, partially limited, partially advantaged slot for
all the shrinking).
> 17 1/2 25 0 EC: Bio-Energy Conversion (Power limited by current level of Shrinking)
> 17 1/2 25 50 6 EB: Bio-Blast 10d6EB vs. ED (Power limited by current level of Shrinking)
> 18 1/2 1/2 25 35 0 FF: Bio-Shield 16PD, 19ED Force Field 0END (Power limited by current level of Shrinking)
> 21 1/2 32 2 FLIGHT: Bio-Energy 16" Flight
> (Power limited by current level of Shrinking)
I'd want more detail on what "bio-energy conversion" means to allow it as an
EC.
> Does POW def protect me from my Susc? I don't want it to, that's
> supposed to be her 'fatal flaw'. Her krytonite.
No, it doesn't.
My suggestion would be: give the Shrinking a drawback, so that she has an
incentive to be at larger sizes during combat.
Geoff Speare
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:01:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Thunderbolts (was Re: Starship Troopers_
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Nic Neidenbach writes:
> No, Busiek, currently writing Thunderbolts, is going to be writing
> Avengers, and Iron Man for Marvel. (Thunderbolts is a great comic, btw) :)
Hm...thunderbolts is a cool title, but it's hard to see how it could last more
than 12-24 issues, at least while maintaining the idea which makes it cool.
Eventually they either have to (1) get caught, or (2) reveal themselves, or (3)
'turn to the side of good'...possibly more than one of these.
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:12:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers
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>
> I'd agree on the first movie, they did an admirable job of trying to make a
> whole movie out of the pieces they were left with. The second movie was
> pointless goth trype. (IMNSHO) :)
The first movie was my idea of a good adaptation. NO book can be adapted
totally. The first Dune filmplay that Herbert did himself was over six
hours minimum. The first Crow movie was excellent, thankfully they had
already shot most of the scenes before the Lee tragedy. I think the weird
stuff they deleted afterwards helped the film more then hurt it.
The second film was hardly pointless goth trype. As some goths I know
pointed out, it was pointless faux goth trype.
TokyoMark
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:53:09 -0700
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re: Thunderbolts (was Re: Starship Troopers_
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Nic Neidenbach writes:
>> No, Busiek, currently writing Thunderbolts, is going to be writing
>> Avengers, and Iron Man for Marvel. (Thunderbolts is a great comic, btw) :)
>Hm...thunderbolts is a cool title, but it's hard to see how it could last more
>than 12-24 issues, at least while maintaining the idea which makes it cool.
>Eventually they either have to (1) get caught, or (2) reveal themselves, or (3)
>'turn to the side of good'...possibly more than one of these.
I agree. While it has been written really well, and spawned a number of ideas
for my Champions game, there is no way that this series can last, _especially_
with all the heroes whose duties the T-Bolts are replacing coming back in a few
issues-worth of time.
Some of the T-Bolts will probably stay on the side of the angels, like Atlas,
Mach 1, and Songbird; but others are just too dastardly. Zemo and Moonstone
(Citizen V and Meteorite) are just too entrenched in their villianous ways.
The Fixer (Techno) could really go either way...I think he's mostly caught up in
the fun of it all (After all, he's outsmarting the whole world.)
OBChampions: I'm planning on having a villian group pull a similar stunt to what
the T-Bolts did. Each of the members of BOUNTY will change their costumes and
powers, and start showing up the heroes. The only problem I'm having is
designing a new I.D. for one of the members: APE, a talking mutant gorilla.
Maybe he'll get stuck in a powersuit, and pretend that he's a robot?
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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:01:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Thunderbolts (was Re: Starship Troopers_
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970801101609.007729d0@iswest.com>
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Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:54:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Instant Change as a Weapon
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Filksinger writes:
> Seriously, I didn't mean to restart an old debate. It just seemed to
> be disadvantageous to have to become a hero in order to pick up a
> particular focus and use it.
It is, possibly. It just isn't a 1/4 limitation worth. Example:
A person without a hero ID can use his powers in a subtle way, without
announcing his presence.
A person with only in hero ID must reveal himself as a hero to use his/her
powers; in addition, situations can arise where he cannot use his powers. Note
that OHID is somewhat redundant with the 'visible' limitation.
A person with an obvious focus must pull out some big obvious device to use his
powers (thus generally revealing himself as a hero); in additions, he may be
prevented from using his powers; these situations are generally similar to the
ones which restrict OHID.
Now, these limitations aren't identical, but they're close enough to be
redundant. This is the usual reason OHID and OIF are not allowed on the same
power.
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 14:59:49 -0700
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net>
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers
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Bryce Berggren wrote:
> Princess Bride? Gone With the Wind?
More like "Gone With My Lunch". I absolutely hate that movie. And I
have seen The Princess Bride, and only found it to be realtively OK.
Nothing I would plunk down my bucks to go see.
> Also, can you blame Hollywood for something like Johnny Mnemonic, where
> Gibson himself "butchered" the story?
I saw it on cable. Wasn't impressed at all with it. And I don't care
for Gibson's writing style.
> So you formed your opinions in this case on your own impressions of what
> your friends told you. Ooooookkaayyy ...
All I asked them was how far what they were working on deviated from
the book. Since many of them had read it and were working on the movie,
I figured that they were in a good enough position to provide that
information with a reasonable amount of accuracy. So shoot me!
> Personal issues aside, bottom line is that if you haven't read the book,
> you don't know that the book didn't suck (or at least was unworkable as
> a film) and that the film was actually better, or good in its own way
> (I'd mention the Crow here, but that'd just get me slammed from the
> folks that were fanatic about the comic).
I didn't make my decision based on the content of either the movie
or the book, but by how far the film version deviated from the book.
Which is a huge difference. A huge deviation in the film version
corrupts both the atmosphere and the mood the author used in his
presentation. Something I feel is a vital element.
> I find it ironic that Liefeld, having been drummed out of Marvel for his
> run on Avengers and Cap, and persona non grata at Image, turns to an
> independent company (ahh, those bastions of originality and quality, our
> last hope for creative genius in the decaying intellectual world of comics)
> to plagiarize Cap and ruin what reputation Fighting American has.
The ironic thing was that the Marvel executives were stupid enough
to let him back into the company to do Heroes Reborn in the first place.
After the public anti-Marvel rant that he made during the founding of
Image.
And as for that independant company he went to. He didn't go to it
at all. He owns a huge chunk of it. His company, Maximum Press, was
supposedly bought out by the new company Awesome Entertainment. When all
that really happened was that he got a new business partner.
I never claimed that all independant comic book companies were clean
as the driven snow. In fact, I will be the first one to admit that there
are plenty who are just as dirty as the big boys. But what I do believe,
is that the independant market is the one hope for the future of comics.
Because it is there that taking the type of risks that will
revolutionize the industry are the very thing that actualy draws the
attention they need to keep afloat.
> BTW ... Busiek, Lobdell, David, Waid, Marz, Moore, Ostrander, Kavanagh,
> Stern, Byrne, Hama, Morrison, DeFalco, and Kelly have yet to convince me
> that the comics mainstream is /entirely/ a wasteland ... exactly who were
> you talking about, again?
You are speaking of the stars of the industry. People whose names
will sell comics no matter what they are and from no matter what company
they are produced. That has absolutely nothing to do with the companies
themselves or the way they do business.
BTW, the talent of some of the people you listed is extremely
debateable. DeFalco and Hama the top two that stand out immediately. I,
personally, will never forgive DeFalco for his stint on The Fantastic
Four.
> Did you READ the whole Death of Superman storyline? I'm not going to
> defend the whole killing off of Supes, but the Reign of the Supermen was
> HARDLY a "yearly event", and quite a few original ideas were brought up
> through the whole thing.
Yes I did. And I wasn't impressed with it at all.
In the years prior to the whole Death Of Superman mess, there was a
death of Superman story averaging once a year. So it really wasn't
really anything that special about it. Steel, Superboy, The Eradicator,
The Cyborg, they really weren't all that special. All of them were just
recycled characters. The whole thing was just a big publicity stunt that
lasted nearly a year. And alot of speculators fell for it hook, line and
sinker.
> I think Stan Lee said it best ... it was an interesting idea that took
> too many twists and spun out of control.
Another example of DeFalco's "talent".
> A bit more than it does to draw a chick with lots of gazonga and very
> little clothing, and throw her up against some nasty-clawed slavering
> creature in a full-issue fight with no point ... which covers just
> over half of the independent titles (not including Japanese imports)
> in my last copy of Previews.
That description also covers the majority of the mainstream comics
market. Especially at Image. So what was your point?
My point remains as follows: The big comic book companies have too
much money. They don't have any real incentive to take the risks to
bring the new approaches to the comics market that it desperately needs.
Independants, on the other hand, survive by either developing those new
approaches or by following trends. And those who follow trends only stay
around as long as the trend lasts. On the other hand, those who do
succeed with those new approaches tend to have a lifespan that lasts.
This has been proven time and time again since the independant market
started booming.
> Onslaught may have totally sucked, but at least it required some
> convoluted thinking to come up with (and more convoluted thinking to
> get them out of it, if David's been saddled with the job :) ).
I disagree. It was totally formulaic from beginning to the end.
Crisis On The Infinate Earths followed a very similar storyline and was
alot better written.
> Pop quiz. Busiek's Astro City wins an Eisner. Liefeld gets critically
> panned for Avengers despite fairly brisk sales due to hype. So ...
> who's doing Avengers next year?
It took them that long to realize that Liefeld is a hack? Please!
And I won't argue with you about Kurt Busiek's talent. The arrival
of each issue of Thunderbolts is something I await each month with a
great deal of anticipation.
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 18:18:48 -0400 (EDT)
X-To: hero-l@october.com
Subject: Re: Ars Magica --> Hero
X-Listname: Hero
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero)
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>
>
>
> Does anyone know of an Ars Magica to Hero conversion system? I just
> started a Fantasy Hero game, and a possible player wants to use the Ars
> magic system for his mage character. I've got no problem with that, but
> I'm not quite sure how to do the conversion.
>
I don't know of a conversion system, but I'd like to suggest a possible
way of (imperfectly) emulating Ars Magica magic. For each of the areas of
magic that the mage knows, have him/her buy an END reserve labelled for
that area (eg "ignem", "muto", or "creo"). Then, allow the mage to
purchase a VPP
but all powers in the VPP cost normal END. If the power in the VPP does
not normally cost END, then it automatically gets the "costs END"
limitation. Now, any powers used from this VPP must have enough END
availible in the appropriate END reserves in order to cast the spell.
This should be pretty easy to determine on the fly based on special
effects (an EB - Fireball would be a "creo ignem", por ejemplo). You'll
probably also want to allow the mage to buy powers seperate from his VPP,
perhaps in a MPP, to simulate spells which he has specifically learned, or
to simulate some of the snazzy "gifts" availible in AM. You may want to
make everything require an appropriate skill roll. Hope this helps...
> --
>
> Stephen B. Mann sm6439@cnsvax.albany.edu
> SUNY Learning Network http://sln1.esc.edu
>
-Eric
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Re: Thunderbolts (was Re: Starship Troopers)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 20:00:22 -0400 (EDT)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> Some of the T-Bolts will probably stay on the side of the angels, like Atlas,
> Mach 1, and Songbird; but others are just too dastardly. Zemo and Moonstone
> (Citizen V and Meteorite) are just too entrenched in their villianous ways.
> The Fixer (Techno) could really go either way...I think he's mostly caught up in
> the fun of it all (After all, he's outsmarting the whole world.)
>
I just got interested in this book after picking up the TPB. Who'da thunk
Marvel could do anything this original? Of course Busiek gets more credit
than marvel execs; in my book anyway.
> OBChampions: I'm planning on having a villian group pull a similar stunt to what
> the T-Bolts did. Each of the members of BOUNTY will change their costumes and
> powers, and start showing up the heroes. The only problem I'm having is
> designing a new I.D. for one of the members: APE, a talking mutant gorilla.
>
Two words: diving helmet! Seriosly, there is this famous old, bad sci-fi
movie where the aliens look like gorillas with diving helmets. The
players will assume that either the "hero" is paying an homage to that old
movie, or that you are. Give him a synthesized voice built into his
diving helmet that sounds like a univeral translator. Just a thought...
-Eric
> Maybe he'll get stuck in a powersuit, and pretend that he's a robot?
>
> Richard
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 00:01:43 +0000
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
Priority: normal
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On 1 Aug 97 at 14:59, Darrin Kelley wrote:
> Bryce Berggren wrote:
>
> > Princess Bride? Gone With the Wind?
>
> More like "Gone With My Lunch". I absolutely hate that movie.
> And I
> have seen The Princess Bride, and only found it to be realtively OK.
> Nothing I would plunk down my bucks to go see.
Which has nothing to do with the fact that it was an excellent
adaptation of the book.
<snip>
> I didn't make my decision based on the content of either the
> movie
> or the book, but by how far the film version deviated from the book.
> Which is a huge difference. A huge deviation in the film version
> corrupts both the atmosphere and the mood the author used in his
> presentation. Something I feel is a vital element.
The movie Bladerunner was a good movie, and the book Do Androids
Dream of Electric Sheep? was a good book. However, even though the
movie was originally based on the book, they resembled each other
only slightly more than the titles did.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 00:08:33 +0000
Subject: Re: Thunderbolts (was Re: Starship Troopers)
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On 1 Aug 97 at 20:00, Eric Burns wrote:
> Two words: diving helmet! Seriosly, there is this famous old, bad
> sci-fi movie where the aliens look like gorillas with diving
> helmets. The players will assume that either the "hero" is paying
> an homage to that old movie, or that you are. Give him a
> synthesized voice built into his diving helmet that sounds like a
> univeral translator. Just a thought...
Plan Nine from Outer Space. Winner of the Golden Turkey Award for All
Time Worst Movie.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 17:13:25 -0700
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell)
Subject: Re: Thunderbolts (was Re: Starship Troopers)
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
-> From burns@usmcug.usm.maine.edu Fri Aug 1 17:09:17 1997
->
-> > OBChampions: I'm planning on having a villian group pull a similar stunt to what
-> > the T-Bolts did. Each of the members of BOUNTY will change their costumes and
-> > powers, and start showing up the heroes. The only problem I'm having is
-> > designing a new I.D. for one of the members: APE, a talking mutant gorilla.
-> >
->
-> Two words: diving helmet! Seriosly, there is this famous old, bad sci-fi
-> movie where the aliens look like gorillas with diving helmets. The
-> players will assume that either the "hero" is paying an homage to that old
-> movie, or that you are. Give him a synthesized voice built into his
-> diving helmet that sounds like a univeral translator. Just a thought...
->
Hmmm... In my campaigns, talking apes are so common that nobody would notice
an extra one...
-Sam
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 22:58:21 -0500
From: Todd <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: electronic book UMA
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Garth Dighton wrote:
> I bought the Ultimate Martial Artist and the Ultimate Super Mage
> recently, and I can't even unzip them onto my computer. Neither my
> official PKZIP32 program nor the PKUNZIP on the disks seem to be
> working. I have been trying to get to the Hero Games page to ask them
> for help, but they've been down, as we all know. If anyone knows what
> the problem is, I would appreciate some help.
A friend of mine also ordered these disks and had the same problem. He
tried emailing Hero Games, but either they werent answering email, or
they didnt know how to fix it. It took me some experimenting, but I
figured out what the problem was and how to fix it.
The problem is that they zipped them to multiple diskettes, but then
COPIED the diskettes (but not the disk labels) to other diskettes. Pkzip
requires specific disk labels, which these do not have.
To fix:
first off, you need to find out what the disk labels SHOULD be when you
span multiple diskettes (I'm doing this off the top of my head and don't
remember exactly what they were). The simplest way to do this is to
just zip something up across more than one diskette and then do a
directory on those diskettes to see what labels pkzip put on them.
Then, just use the dos LABEL command to change the labels on the
diskette to what they SHOULD be. After this, they will unzip normally.
Todd
I am cc:'ing this to Herogames@aol.com so that they can help anybody
else who writes them with this problem.. (or, even better, so that they
can fix it before they send out any more diskettes)
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: "Stephen B. Mann" <sm6439@cnsvax.albany.edu>
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 00:07:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Ars Magica --> Hero
Newsgroups: october.hero
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Eric Burns wrote:
> I don't know of a conversion system, but I'd like to suggest a possible
> way of (imperfectly) emulating Ars Magica magic.
Oh goody :)
For each of the areas of
> magic that the mage knows, have him/her buy an END reserve labelled for
> that area (eg "ignem", "muto", or "creo").
I can see END reserves for the forms, but why the techniques? If my
mage wants to cast a creo ignem, his "fire" reserves should be drawn on.
But how can you draw on a "create" reserve?
How big should be these reserves be, and how fast should they
recharge. I've never played Ars, so I don't know how many spells a mage
can cast before being too pooped to party, and how fast he recovers from
that.
Then, allow the mage to
> purchase a VPP
> but all powers in the VPP cost normal END.
By "power" you mean spell?
> limitation. Now, any powers used from this VPP must have enough END
> availible in the appropriate END reserves in order to cast the spell.
> This should be pretty easy to determine on the fly based on special
> effects (an EB - Fireball would be a "creo ignem", por ejemplo).
OK, I'm with you so far....
> probably also want to allow the mage to buy powers seperate from his VPP,
> perhaps in a MPP, to simulate spells which he has specifically learned,
What kind of powers do you mean? Do Ars mages have spells outside
their hermetic traditions?
> make everything require an appropriate skill roll. Hope this helps...
Sure, but another question. I kinda liked the setup in Ars; die
roll plus technique skill plus form skill plus whatever. Hero skills for
the group average 11-13, so how do I handle the technique and form skill
rolls to simulate this? Make the player roll against both skills
seperately to cast the spell correctly? Average them together to get a
single skill roll?
--
Stephen B. Mann sm6439@cnsvax.albany.edu
SUNY Learning Network http://sln1.esc.edu
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 23:13:23 -0500
From: Todd <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: Thunderbolts (was Re: Starship Troopers_
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote:
OBChampions: I'm planning on having a villian group pull a similar stunt
to what
> the T-Bolts did. Each of the members of BOUNTY will change their
> costumes and
> powers, and start showing up the heroes. The only problem I'm having
> is
> designing a new I.D. for one of the members: APE, a talking mutant
> gorilla.
Umm... shave his butt and teach him to walk backwards??
Todd
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 01:14:17 -0400
Subject: Re: (Champ) Help Req w/ Character Design: Shrinking E.Proj (Sylvia)
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 5-9
From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Those abilities do not make me think, "This must be a [half] dryad."
There is no reference to a tree or trees here. On a not really related
subject, I alway thought it would be interesting to combine Density
Increase with Shrinking, as they tend to compensate for each other's mass
adjustments. Perhaps build a solar powers character with this, White
Dwarf.
Time for us to go on vacation, to VA Beach.
Aloha, WillGGeiger@juno.com
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 02 Aug 97 07:55:00 GMT
Subject: Instant Change as a Weap
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com
X-Listname: Hero
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Path: october!opal
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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To: champ-l@omg.org
h > Could you use Instant Change (Usable Against Others, Ranged) as a
h > weapon? In other words, could you rob Iron Man of his armor suit
h > or transform a martial artest's clothing into something bulky and
h > difficult to fight in, like one of those baseball mascots' outfits?
h > Could you change someone into clothing too heavy to move in? Could
h > you use Instant Change to pick pockets or rob someone of their foci?
h > Is Instant Change (Usable Against Others) even valid, or would you
h > have to buy Transform? Just some thoughts... I think this might
h > actually be a way to simulate some speedster tricks.
h >
h > -Eric
Absolutely not. No way. Ever. I let someone put this past me, over
10 years ago, and I will never forget the chaos it caused - even *after*
I ruled that it couldn't do most of what you just described.
Transform is the valid power to use for most of this. (Picking Pockets
at range, or snatching foci can be done with TK)
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: CptPatriot@aol.com
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 04:00:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Hard copies of their Hero Plus books
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
How many people would be interested in getting hard copies of their Hero Plus
software?
I happen to work at a Kinko's and could possibly get a decent price on
printing if enough people expressed interest in getting it output.
PLEASE don't respond to the list. E-mail me directly at <A HREF="mailto:CptPat
riot@aol.com?Subject=HeroPlus">CptPatriot@aol.com</A>
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 97 09:24:40
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: (Champ) Help Req w/ Character Design: Shrinking E.Proj (Sylvia)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 4
On Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:47:50 -0700 (PDT), Brian Wong wrote:
>5 5 EC: Shrinking
>15 1 5 10 Shrinking 1 Level (Persistant)
>25 1/2 5 20 Shrinking +2 Levels (0 End)
>7 1/2 1/2 5 10 Shrinking +1 Level (0 End, Full Phase to use)
Shouldn't this be one partially limited/advantaged power? You're
getting the EC bonus three times here for one power. Remember that you
don't have to use a power at full power.
The power would then be Base 40pts, Active (10x2)+(30x1.5)=65 pts, Real
cost=(10x2) + (20x1.5) + ((10*1.5)/1.5)-5 = 60
But then you could increase the EC bonus to compensate.
qts
From: Chuff78002@aol.com
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 07:19:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: electronic book UMA
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
In a message dated 02/08/97 04:26:12am, you write:
<< > I bought the Ultimate Martial Artist and the Ultimate Super Mage
> recently, and I can't even unzip them onto my computer. Neither my
> official PKZIP32 program nor the PKUNZIP on the disks seem to be
> working. I have been trying to get to the Hero Games page to ask them
> for help, but they've been down, as we all know. If anyone knows what
> the problem is, I would appreciate some help.
A friend of mine also ordered these disks and had the same problem. He
tried emailing Hero Games, but either they werent answering email, or
they didnt know how to fix it. It took me some experimenting, but I
figured out what the problem was and how to fix it.
The problem is that they zipped them to multiple diskettes, but then
COPIED the diskettes (but not the disk labels) to other diskettes. Pkzip
requires specific disk labels, which these do not have.
>>
<snip>
Hoo boy !
As I said sometime ago, whos'e the bright spark who thought of making the
darn books availiable only in electronic format ?
Noone in Britain has any idea on how to get the disks in this country, and my
local gamestore has tried god knows how many different importers with no joy
!
Sorry, but it does mean that only a lucky few are gonna get these
supplements, and if they do, well see the above. I would love to get the UMA
book, I really would ,as I have The Ultimate Mentalist in good old pen and
ink format .
I ask again, what's wrong with using paper for chrissakes.....
Anybody know if the Ultimate Martial Artist is availiable in actual book
format and if so how can I get it in the UK ?
Yours
Chuff78002.
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 11:30:38 +0000
Subject: Re: Ars Magica --> Hero
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On 2 Aug 97 at 13:05, Eric Burns wrote:
> The
> best way to simulate this in Champs is to have a seperate END
> Reserve for each Technique and Form.
Possibly. Another way is to require separate VPPs. Forbidden
normally, perhaps, but allowable with GM permission (isn't
everything?).
Also, you might require separate skill levels for each type of magic.
This allows for the different schools, and would probably be worth a
small limit on the VPP control cost.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 11:30:38 +0000
Subject: Re: electronic book UMA
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On 2 Aug 97 at 7:19, Chuff78002@aol.com wrote:
> Anybody know if the Ultimate Martial Artist is availiable in actual
> book format and if so how can I get it in the UK ?
It is available in a three-ring binder format, only purchasable
directly from Hero Games. As InterNIC has screwed up their website,
and it is still unavailable, you can't order it until they get things
fixed.
You may try www.herogames.com, though. Even though it isn't attached
to the new website yet, it sometimes gets the old site. This may
allow you to find the instructions for purchasing the product.
Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!"
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 09:06:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Thunderbolts (was Re: Starship Troopers)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Filksinger wrote:
> On 1 Aug 97 at 20:00, Eric Burns wrote:
>
> > Two words: diving helmet! Seriosly, there is this famous old, bad
> > sci-fi movie where the aliens look like gorillas with diving
> > helmets. The players will assume that either the "hero" is paying
> > an homage to that old movie, or that you are. Give him a
> > synthesized voice built into his diving helmet that sounds like a
> > univeral translator. Just a thought...
>
> Plan Nine from Outer Space. Winner of the Golden Turkey Award for All
> Time Worst Movie.
Nope. The gorilla in a diving helmet comes from "Robot Monster".
Probably the second worst movie of all time. As I under stand the budget
was so low that the unly alien they could afford was the propman's gorllia
costume. So they plunked a diving helmet on top and...
Mystery Science Theather 3000 did a great job of riffing the move sometime
ago.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
X-Sender: ludator@207.40.36.2
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 09:26:28 -0500
From: ludator@softfarm.com (Bryan Berggren)
Subject: Re: Thunderbolts (was Re: Starship Troopers)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:57 PM 8/2/97 -0400, Richard D. Bergstresser Jr. wrote:
>Wrong. Robot Monster had the Gorilla. Plan Nine had human zombies.
>Both were by Ed Wood.
=Robot Monster= was NOT an Ed Wood movie (though you may be thinking of
=Bride of the Monster=, which was). You can tell because =Robot Monster= to
the best of my knowledge does not:
a) star Tor Johnson
b) feature Kendall the Cop
c) have any angora-fondling scenes.
:] :] :]
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
From: boaters@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 11:31:00 -0400
Subject: Re: electronic book UMA
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 01:05 AM 7/31/97 -0400, boaters@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> > I still can log on to the Herogames page so I thought that I
> would
> >try to reach anyone here instead. I just want to know whether or not
>
> >this is only my case or has anyone else had this problem.
>
> You can? I can't; I still get a "No DNS entry" error. Are you
> getting
> through when I'm not, or are you just speaking theoretically (that is,
> "when
> they get their website reconnected")?
> ---
> This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library
I can not get to them either. I was hoping that they would still be
monitoring this sight and would answer my intial email.
Darin
From: boaters@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 11:36:27 -0400
Subject: Re: electronic book UMA
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Garth Dighton wrote:
> On 31 Jul 97 at 1:05, boaters@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> > I recently bought the electronic version of the Ultimate Martial
> > Artist. Unfortunately, It was missing a few things. The first
> thing
> > that it did not have was the cover of the book version. This was
> some
> > really good artwork and I had hoped that it would be included.
> > Furthermore, the graphic on page 97 is missing.
> >
> > I still can log on to the Herogames page so I thought that I
> would
> > try to reach anyone here instead. I just want to know whether or
> not
> > this is only my case or has anyone else had this problem.
> >
> > Darin
> I bought the Ultimate Martial Artist and the Ultimate Super Mage
> recently, and I can't even unzip them onto my computer. Neither my
> official PKZIP32 program nor the PKUNZIP on the disks seem to be
> working. I have been trying to get to the Hero Games page to ask them
> for help, but they've been down, as we all know. If anyone knows what
> the problem is, I would appreciate some help.
>
> Thank You,
>
> Garth Dighton
> gdighton@elite.net
I am sure that you have read what Todd has said. I was able to use
Explorer on Win. 95 to put all of Supermage together and unzip. However
Uma was a bit more difficult. Needless to say, the way that I opened
that was by going to MSDOS prompt in my program files and doing the
whole procedure from there.
It seems as though we all have had problems with these things. I think
that making an adobe version was good for those people that needed such
simple things but that they should make these disks for the real
computers that are out there. (And include the graphic on page 97)
Darin
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Re: Ars Magica --> Hero
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 13:05:37 -0400 (EDT)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> > I don't know of a conversion system, but I'd like to suggest a possible
> > way of (imperfectly) emulating Ars Magica magic.
>
> Oh goody :)
>
> > For each of the areas of
> > magic that the mage knows, have him/her buy an END reserve labelled for
> > that area (eg "ignem", "muto", or "creo").
>
> I can see END reserves for the forms, but why the techniques? If my
> mage wants to cast a creo ignem, his "fire" reserves should be drawn on.
> But how can you draw on a "create" reserve?
Don't think of these reserves as mana stores, as in MtG. Their primary
purpose is to limit what effects are possible with the VPP. In AM, Kelvin
the Controller might have a very high Rego score, and have some mediochre
to small scores in various techniques and forms. Now, Kelvin would be
good at controlling anything from a plant to a fire to a human mind, and
he would be especially good at controlling forms than he has levels in.
On the other hand, if Flame Maiden Jane had a very high Ignem score a
medium Rego, and some small scores in various other things, she would be
very, very good at controlling flame, very good at doing anything else
with flame, and good at controlling something other than flame. The best
way to simulate this in Champs is to have a seperate END Reserve for each
Technique and Form.
The way it works in AM, is that to determine if you can cast a spell, you
figure out which technique and form are involved, and then see if you have
enough combined skill in those areas. For example, Flame Maiden Jane
wants to make a palace guard fall asleep. This is a Level 15 Rego Mentem
effect. Jane has a Rego of 11, and a Mentum of 4, giving her just enough
levels for this effect.
If Jane had a Rego of 15 and a Mentum of 0, or a Rego of 0 and a Mentum of
15, she could still do this effect. Therefore, you should let the PC pay
for the effect with END from either or both reserves, however he/she wants
to.
> How big should be these reserves be, and how fast should they
> recharge. I've never played Ars, so I don't know how many spells a mage
> can cast before being too pooped to party, and how fast he recovers from
> that.
The reserves should probably be around Level / 3 in size. So, if you have
a Perdo of Level 18, your Perdo END reserve should be 6 in size. This is
just a rough estimation, after looking through the AM book. This may
sound small, but remember that 6 END is enough for a 60 AP spell. REC
should probably be equal to the END in the reserve.
As for the mage being "to pooped to party", this could be done by
requiring the mage to pay an equal amount of END as the spell from his own
END. The VPP and (maybe) spells could have the x2 END limitation. In
addition to this, you might want to have a requires skill roll limitation
on the VPP and spells, and have a drain END side effect. As I recall,
when mages failled to cast spells, they lost a "fatigue level". You could
base the skills on techniques, forms, or both.
>
> Then, allow the mage to
> > purchase a VPP
> > but all powers in the VPP cost normal END.
>
> By "power" you mean spell?
Yes and no. In AM, there are two types of magic, known spells (which are
easier to cast and much more dependable), and on-the-fly, improvised magic
which is less dependible, more likely to exhaust you, but you can use it
to create any effect within your expertise. Any Champs powers purchased
outside of the VPP would be known spells, and the VPP itself would
represent the PC's ability to cast magic on the fly. You may want to
increase the END cost on the VPP, or decrease its chance of succeding.
>
> > limitation. Now, any powers used from this VPP must have enough END
> > availible in the appropriate END reserves in order to cast the spell.
> > This should be pretty easy to determine on the fly based on special
> > effects (an EB - Fireball would be a "creo ignem", por ejemplo).
> OK, I'm with you so far....
>
> > probably also want to allow the mage to buy powers seperate from his VPP,
> > perhaps in a MPP, to simulate spells which he has specifically learned,
>
> What kind of powers do you mean? Do Ars mages have spells outside
> their hermetic traditions?
Flame Maiden Jane might be specifically well practiced at creating
fireballs. She can do this with almost no chance of failing. This is an
effect (within the limits of her various levels) that she has "learned".
You might even want to make these effects completely dependible, not even
requiring a skill roll. The best way to do this is to make them seperate
from the VPP.
>
> > make everything require an appropriate skill roll. Hope this helps...
>
> Sure, but another question. I kinda liked the setup in Ars; die
> roll plus technique skill plus form skill plus whatever. Hero skills for
> the group average 11-13, so how do I handle the technique and form skill
> rolls to simulate this? Make the player roll against both skills
> seperately to cast the spell correctly? Average them together to get a
> single skill roll?
>
How about allow the player to purchase levels in Ignem related spells, or
Creo related spells (for instance). That way you could use both Creo and
Ignem levels in, say, a fireball spell. Although, averaging the scores is
not a bad idea either.
It's been a while since i've played AM, so I may have forgotten or
misremembered some things, so take everything I've said with a grain of
salt. My best advice to you is to try to _approximate_ and not duplicate
AM in a way that works well in the Champs system. Good luck :-).
> --
>
> Stephen B. Mann sm6439@cnsvax.albany.edu
> SUNY Learning Network http://sln1.esc.edu
>
-Eric
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." <richberg@erols.com>
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 13:56:14 -0400
Subject: Re: electronic book UMA
Newsgroups: october.hero
X-Listname: Hero
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero)
Path: october.com!not-for-mail
Organization: Prometheus Corp.
Lines: 24
X-Sender: richberg@nrf-as6s19.erols.com
Nntp-Posting-Host: nrf-as6s19.erols.com
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
herolist wrote:
>
> From: Chuff78002@aol.com
> Subject: Re: electronic book UMA
> To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> book, I really would ,as I have The Ultimate Mentalist in good old pen and
> ink format .
> I ask again, what's wrong with using paper for chrissakes.....
Steve P. claims they can't afford it. Sales are too low. Doesn't explain why
Gold Rush can though.
>
> Anybody know if the Ultimate Martial Artist is availiable in actual book
> format and if so how can I get it in the UK ?
Book version is long sold out. Hopefully some dealers still have them.
--
Yes, I've finally resorted to a Spam block.
To respond, remove the letters BLOCK from my address.
Sorry for the inconvenience.
Rich.
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." <richberg@erols.com>
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 13:57:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Thunderbolts (was Re: Starship Troopers)
Newsgroups: october.hero
X-Listname: Hero
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero)
Path: october.com!not-for-mail
Organization: Prometheus Corp.
Lines: 27
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Nntp-Posting-Host: nrf-as6s19.erols.com
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
herolist wrote:
>
> From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
> Subject: Re: Thunderbolts (was Re: Starship Troopers)
> Reply-To: filkhero@usa.net
> To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> On 1 Aug 97 at 20:00, Eric Burns wrote:
>
> > Two words: diving helmet! Seriosly, there is this famous old, bad
> > sci-fi movie where the aliens look like gorillas with diving
> > helmets. The players will assume that either the "hero" is paying
> > an homage to that old movie, or that you are. Give him a
> > synthesized voice built into his diving helmet that sounds like a
> > univeral translator. Just a thought...
>
> Plan Nine from Outer Space. Winner of the Golden Turkey Award for All
> Time Worst Movie.
Wrong. Robot Monster had the Gorilla. Plan Nine had human zombies.
Both were by Ed Wood.
--
Yes, I've finally resorted to a Spam block.
To respond, remove the letters BLOCK from my address.
Sorry for the inconvenience.
Rich.
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 14:21:59 -0400
From: seleena@fred.net (E. David Miller)
Subject: Re: Ars Magica --> Hero
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:07 AM 8/2/97, Stephen B. Mann wrote:
>Eric Burns wrote:
>> I don't know of a conversion system, but I'd like to suggest a possible
>> way of (imperfectly) emulating Ars Magica magic.
My own suggestion would be the following. First of all, as
previously noted, a VPP is almost a must for this character's flexibility.
Then, SKILL ROLLs. Multiple skill rolls, one for the form, and one for the
discipline. (I only tinkered with Ars Magica once, so forgive the
roughness of language and mechanics) One of the Hero System Almanacs
quoted that the first Requires a Skill Roll limitation is -1/2, and each
successive one is -1/4. Other people use a variable limitation based upon
an average chance of success, rated to an equal activation roll. But
whatever the case, have each spell require two or more skill rolls. For
instance, that fireball, a skill roll for fire (ignem) and one for
creation. Etc. Run it all off of one end reserve, rather than complicate
your life. The pool's control cost will go down a bit, and each spell will
take the necessary skill rolls. Simply write it up as variable limitations
of a minimum of -X (-1?; -3/4?), with a value on the pool of half that, but
each spell gets full reduction.
David Miller
___________________________________________________________________________
| seleena@bigdog.-> |There are 3 temporal dimensions, just as there are 3 |
| ->fred.net |spatial; T, the passage of time; Tau, the changes in |
|-------------------|possible outcomes/decisions; Teh, the alternate bases|
| E. David Miller |of reality. Thus, all that ever has been dreamed, |
|-------------------|IS, somewhen. And somewhen, we are all simply a |
|Faith, and Dreams. |dream. Or, by perspective, a nightmare. |
|___________________|_____________________________________________________|
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 13:00:44 -0700
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
Subject: Re: (Champ) Help Req w/ Character Design: Shrinking E.Proj (Sylvia)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
William G Geiger wrote:
> Those abilities do not make me think, "This must be a [half] dryad."
> There is no reference to a tree or trees here. On a not really
> related
>
This is true. What I'm dealing with here is an attempt to revive a
12 year oldChampions character. For some reason I named her Nymph in the
original version;
though if I remember I got the idea the first time around from seeing
WASP in
Avengers.
I've tried to creep some things in to make the name fit without
loosing the concept, but it's not working entirely too well.
I think the original character was a mutant.
The only thing fey about the powers really is that shrinking and
flight could be
combined to give a Disney style pixie...
I'd toss it all but I'm too attached to some aspect and a few fond
memories with
this character... I'm sure anybody's whose been at this long enough can
find at least
one character they fondly remember but which wouldn't fit into what they
now
consider a balanced game...
This one's mine, and of all the characters I proposed for the game,
it's concept
was the one that got picked... So now I have the nightmare of turning it
into something playable.
I've done 10 rewrites in the past week, and I've got my newest one
open in
another window as I type...
Now I just have to explain why someone with these powers might
choose the name Nymph.
I guess I can say that what makes this character for me is mostly
the 'attitude' I
have attached to it, something not even found on the character sheet.
That and the
'essense' behind the powers.
The rest, including the origin, is fluid and has changed more times
than a DC
character.
--
Rook
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Re: Ars Magica --> Hero
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 16:09:14 -0400 (EDT)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> My own suggestion would be the following. First of all, as
> previously noted, a VPP is almost a must for this character's flexibility.
> Then, SKILL ROLLs. Multiple skill rolls, one for the form, and one for the
> discipline. (I only tinkered with Ars Magica once, so forgive the
> roughness of language and mechanics) One of the Hero System Almanacs
> quoted that the first Requires a Skill Roll limitation is -1/2, and each
> successive one is -1/4. Other people use a variable limitation based upon
> an average chance of success, rated to an equal activation roll. But
> whatever the case, have each spell require two or more skill rolls. For
> instance, that fireball, a skill roll for fire (ignem) and one for
> creation. Etc. Run it all off of one end reserve, rather than complicate
> your life. The pool's control cost will go down a bit, and each spell will
> take the necessary skill rolls. Simply write it up as variable limitations
> of a minimum of -X (-1?; -3/4?), with a value on the pool of half that, but
> each spell gets full reduction.
>
>
> David Miller
>
This is a not a bad idea for a magic system, but there is a fundamental
differece between your suggestion and how magic works in Ars Magica (at
least in my copy of the rules, I know there were several editions). When
you are using your magic, your ability to create an effect based on a
Technique and a Form is the combined levels between the two.
Someone with a Creo of 30 and an Ignem of 0 is just as capable of creating
a fireball as someone with a Creo of 0 and an Ignem of 30, or someone with
a Creo of 15 and an Ignem of 15. With your method, a mage who wanted to
shoot out a fireball would need a decent Creo and Ignem score.
Please, don't assume I'm trying to criticize you, your system might
actually be better for simplicity and play balance. I just wanted to
point out the difference between your system and Ars, since it lessons the
Magi's power quite a bit.
-Eric
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 13:10:41 -0700
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
Subject: Re: electronic book UMA
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> > On 31 Jul 97 at 1:05, boaters@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> > > I recently bought the electronic version of the Ultimate Martial
> > > Artist. Unfortunately, It was missing a few things. The first
> > thing
> > > that it did not have was the cover of the book version. This was
> > some
> > > really good artwork and I had hoped that it would be included.
> > > Furthermore, the graphic on page 97 is missing.
> > >
> > > I still can log on to the Herogames page so I thought that I
> > would
> > > try to reach anyone here instead. I just want to know whether or
> > not
> > > this is only my case or has anyone else had this problem.
> > >
You may want to send this message to the Fuzion mailing list. While
it has nothing
to do with fuzion; members of Herogames regularly monitor and post to
that mailing
list. So you're likely to be heard there.
Some of the problem here seems to do with disk labeling. Another
problem is the
spanning of one zip across several disks. You can download a patch to
winzip for
working with spanning in windows. Look for it on the winzip web sites...
If you absolutely can't find it, I can email to you.
I myself had a problem with USM. my second disk had an intermitantly
bad sector...
I couldn't use it, but I was able to copy it onto another disk (though
it crashed the first two tries...)
and then label that disk appropriaely.
--
Rook
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 17:05:41 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Sacrifice move
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Salmon,David wrote:
>
> Hey guys ... I can't believe nobody knows of this!!!
Well, if you can't believe its true, it probably isn't... :-)
> Try looking at
> Missle Deflection. It explains exactly how to do this type of block
> for someone else. Not having the book in front of me, you basically
> buy the base power and then add x points to be able to use it at range
> to block against attacks aimed at another character. This is not a
> great explanation but just look up the power. Hope this helps!
>
Thanks for the input, and Missile Deflection is a great power, but it
doesn't address the original issue.
1) Missile Deflection doesn't work against hand-to-hand attacks,
including a movethrough by the incoming flying brick. Dive for Cover
does.
2) Missile Deflection requires the intervening character to beat the
attacker's OCV -- often a tough thing to do -- or have no effect. Dive
for Cover requires the intervenor merely to hit the hex at -1/1" of
distance.
3) Missile Deflection requires that the character have bought the power
in advance, while Dive for Cover can be used as an emergency action by
any character to protect another.
Hope this clarifies things!
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: "Stephen B. Mann" <sm6439@cnsvax.albany.edu>
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 20:53:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Ars Magica --> Hero
Newsgroups: october.hero
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
> Also, you might require separate skill levels for each type of magic.
Oh, I will. What's stumped me is how to use them. Ars adds them to
reach a certain score, Hero rolls under one score. I'm contemplating
making the PC buy each technique and form as a skill which starts at
zero. So, the starting mage might spent 24 points to buy a creo of 5 (11
pts) and an ignem of 6 (13 pts), for a total roll of 11-. The big
problem with this is the point cost for even modest skill rolls.
So a mage might have a VPP for the spells he's "learned", bought at
one point each, and then must pay the exorbinant cost to learn the
spontaneous magic skills (techniques and forms).
--
Stephen B. Mann sm6439@cnsvax.albany.edu
SUNY Learning Network http://sln1.esc.edu
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: "Stephen B. Mann" <sm6439@cnsvax.albany.edu>
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 21:03:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Ars Magica --> Hero
Newsgroups: october.hero
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> From: Eric Burns <burns@usmcug.usm.maine.edu>
>
> Don't think of these reserves as mana stores, as in MtG. Their primary
> purpose is to limit what effects are possible with the VPP.
OK, I understand this now.
> If Jane had a Rego of 15 and a Mentum of 0, or a Rego of 0 and a Mentum of
> 15, she could still do this effect. Therefore, you should let the PC pay
> for the effect with END from either or both reserves, however he/she wants
> to.
I don't recall seeing this in Ars (must not have read it well
enough). So, some one with no skill in fire (ignem 0) can still do fire
spells? Gee, I dunno....
> How about allow the player to purchase levels in Ignem related spells, or
> Creo related spells (for instance). That way you could use both Creo and
> Ignem levels in, say, a fireball spell. Although, averaging the scores is
> not a bad idea either.
I'd like to be able to do that, but how to judge if their combined
skill roll is "enough" for the spell? Mikey the Mage has 11- Creo and
13- Ignem, can he do a fireball? How about summon a fire elemental?
--
Stephen B. Mann sm6439@cnsvax.albany.edu
SUNY Learning Network http://sln1.esc.edu
Web Page created by Text2Web v1.3.6 by Dev Virdi
http://www.virdi.demon.co.uk/
Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 10:52 AM