Week Ending September 13, 1997

From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford) 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was ( Is there a need for SPD?) 
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 00:14:11 GMT 
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On Sat, 06 Sep 1997 10:52:22 +1000, you wrote: 
 
 
> 
>is there really anything wrong with this? one of my favorite power-concepts is diehard, 
> a guy who is virtually unkillable. He's got damage reduction, life support and absorbtion  
>feeding to body. So basically he can't be killed. he has normal charicteristic maxima +/- some speed, 
> and his max attack is 13d6, but he can't be killed. What's wrong with this?  
 
Nothing at all in my book. You didn't say how much life support he has 
but I'll assume the max so he can't be suffocated or gassed, but he 
CAN die. It would just take a very strong killing attack or perhaps a 
KA AVLD like radiation. 
 
Of course, a BODY drain or transfer could kill him as well, since 
those would not trigger his Absorption power. 
 
John Lansford 
 
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Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 07:03:47 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
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Michael Jones wrote: 
>>>i have never been talking about perfect heros- i was talking about hero's  
>>>who are good at a GIVEN TASK, NOT all tasks.  
>> 
>>That's what I've been talking about, so why are you arguing with me?  Maybe  
>>I'm just not clear. 
> 
>because i don't agree with you!!!!!!!!!!!!  
>you used the example of telekinesis which is at best a group of powers, 
maybe in an ec.  
> 
>>>better at what? at everything? so now you have npc's who are better at each  
>>>of the players at everything the players can do? 
>> 
>>What have I been saying that you don't understand me.  I've been talking  
>>about a powergamer who had a character that could DO everything the rest of  
>>the team could do and then some, power wise and skill wise.  I've been  
>>saying how *I* disapprove of that. I've been saying I have NPCs that are  
>>sometimes more powerful than characters but not always.   
> 
>and your rationale for one of these npc's was that a player said thei pc 
said they were the best at something.. .  
 
<snip> 
 
>>I recall saying my NPCs never  
>>outshine my PCs  
> 
>apart from when you specifically design them to do so, as you SAID you did 
with the force-tk-guy? 
> 
Okay, let's go to Sparx's example of Force, a powerful NPC TK.  Okay, he has 
created a game world for the characters to play in.  Let's say it's pretty 
darn detailed.  Thus, it *probably* took quite a bit of time.  As part of 
this elaborate game world, he created Force.  And Force is defined as a 
certain power level. 
Now, a PC comes up with a TK.  He's pretty good, as written, but the 
*Player* says, "My PC is the most powerful TK in the world, so no one is 
better, okay?"  The GM says, "um, no.  There's this NPC *WHO IS ALREADY 
ESTABLISHED* in the game world, *WHO HAS ALREADY ENCOUNTERED OTHER PCs* who 
is more powerful than the PC you have written.  PLUS, I can't guarantee that 
he's the best.  What if Player 'B' comes up with a more powerful TKer?" 
To which the Player says, "But he won't, because I'm the most powerful... 
just tell him so.  And write out your NPC (who has already had a drastic 
effect on the world)." 
 
so...  NO. 
 
I think this is what Sparx was saying.  A game world takes *A DAMN LOT* of 
effort.  I know.  And I like to keep a *damn* sight of continuity in my 
games.  So tossing Force wouldn't be an option for myself either. 
 
I hope *someone* gets something from this.  I'd like to see a reply each 
from Michael Jones and Sparx to this to see what they think...  but...  heh, 
I don't control them.  : ) 
 
- Jerry 
who has just GMed 6 hours of Champions, and has been reading E-mail for the 
past hour. 
"I'm done, man."  "What, you finished your turn?"  "No, man.  I'm done." 
 
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Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 07:11:28 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer) 
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At 05:03 PM 9/7/97 +1000, Michael Jones wrote: 
>>>>Let's see.  It causes tension between players,  
>>>>dislike, outright arguements, a breakdown of the game to mechanics, and 
ends  
>>>>a game and has ended some friendships over petty stuff.   
>>> 
>>>Now, competition between players does that, being good at something is  
>>bound to happen-  
>>>we are talking about superhumans here. who causes that(player competition)?  
>>does this have to do with the issue at hand? no. It has to do with bad  
>>players. Bad players have all sorts of issues, and the idea is to look at  
>>them, not limit game concepts so that all they can get their hands on are  
>>genre-limited straightjackets.  
>> 
>>So now, you are calling my players bad?  Hey!  Only I can do that.  It has  
>>everything to do with the issue at hand since all I've been talking about  
>>since I've started my conversation is my players and my experiences with 
them.   
>> 
> 
>your talking about things players do wrong, but acting like it's a problem 
with charactr creation. it isn't. .  
> 
But aren't the Players responsible for character generation?  Nowhere in the 
entire discussion have I heard Sparx say anything about a problem with the 
*game mechanics* of character creation. 
If the players are causing problems during character creation because of 
their attitudes, then it would be a problem *with the players* _and_ *with 
character creation*.  Right? 
 
- Jerry 
 
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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 12:31:09 +1000 
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Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
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At 07:53 AM 9/6/97 -0600, you wrote: 
>I think you have to use some examples, too, Jones.  What do you mean?  He 
>never has said they all had to bounce bullets, they all had to have power 
>defence, etc.  I think the point was that they all _SHOULDN'T_ have to have 
>those things, but that each one should have some of those abilities. 
> 
 
JONES again? okay, that's it- i'm gonna go back to my goofy net-name.  
And btw, a lot of gm's have the attitude that balanced pc's should have 'adequate' (i.e. token) defences vs different attack forms, which acts basically as a leech on point totals with no rartionale.  
 
 
>I am reading this first thing in the morning, I may be slow, can you explain 
>that last sentence about the comp. prog and the electronics?  It makes no 
>sense to my smeary brain. 
> 
 
a gm i had once insisted a computer wiz should have eloectronics to repair things.  
this was to stop the guy having a higher programming skill than the gm wanted him to, and he got labeled a powergamer when he objected.  
 
 
 
>>What it comes down to is that despite all the stuff about power-gamers, 
>their >character are actually more realistic- what's more likely, someone 
>getting one >power or many? not to metion that the 'many' powers all happen 
>to be valid >combat -concepts, while a high-power system often wastes a lot 
>of points if >designed properly.  
> 
>Oh, I beg to differ, unless you mean "interesting" in the sense of the 
>Chinese curse.  Here's where that guy I mentioned before comes in, Mr. High 
>Teek with the Penetra- and Ranged- vision.  He had TK at ungodly levels w/o 
>range mods, N-ray vision, and telescopic, too.  The GM, who was new to this 
>guy, if not to the rest of us, didn't smell a rat until the first fight. 
>Then this guy tried to hide on a building far away and teek at the bad guys. 
>Very "realistic?" no.   
 
actually this is extremly accurate- haven't you ever heard of artilery? this is how a psycic would fight, why would a normal human stand around in squishing distance of a brick? 
 
>Show me a hero who does this who is not a) comic 
>relief or b) the team's "uncooperative jerk" ala Talisman from the Justice 
>Machine.  Our hero didn't want to hear the GM ask that he act more heroic. 
>It was in character, he said, for his guy to behave so. 
> 
 
it was- if you want heroic behaviour, require that all pc's have it as a psyc lim.  
 
 
>More annoying for the group, if two supers ever squared off (we were a 
>mobile lot and often fought where the fighting fit rather than Hero X vs. 
>Villain Y), the Teeker would wait for us to knock down the villain, then 
>grab and pound him.  No matter what effect or lack of effect it had on the 
>villain, he would crow to the other player "Hey, saved your bacon"  or "I 
>got him for ya" or some similar comment.  Now, we had some INTERESTING 
>characters in the group (IMO).  We had a Texas Ranger who had been abducted 
>by aliens and gifted with high-tech analogues of his old equipment, we had 
>Primeival Man who reverted to mankind's early origins, we had Grimalkin who 
>was a member of a magically-created slave-race to witches.  Some of those 
>characters (notably the Ranger) had cool powers but real lacks in defense. 
>If a big nasty was stomping towards him, we ALL pitched in to help, but none 
>of the other _players_ gave Zeke's player a hard time about saving his rear. 
>He was another hero, one of us. 
> 
 
does this have anything to do with powers? i've seen wimpy ninja-types do this a lot. ..  
was it player or pc speaking? honestly? 
 
 
>Strangely enough, more of our fights started happening indoors, where Bozo 
>couldn't reach his TK (he could SEE, of course).  He didn't take the option 
>of actually joining the fight, he tried buying a big mind link skill so he 
>could warn us of each impending blow.  (Annoying the heck out of us.) 
> 
>Jones, can you give us an example of a powermonger character that was more 
>"superhero realistic" than the rest of the campaign? 
> 
> 
> 
 
how about the one you just quoted?  
 
i have looked into lots of campaigns and seen a bunch of 'realistic' (weak) characters.  
But the point is, could they really fight crime? could they really mix it with heavily-armed criminals? Then you see a player wanting to play an ultra- powerful dude-  
bulletproof, fast, brutal, this guy is WAY more likely to suvive the fights, and hence  
a more valid superhuman. . . . 
 
Then there's power concept- all the examples you gave were 'engineered' in some way- 
designed or evolved with a set of traits- but teek boy? i assume he's a mutant- 
remember the old deffinition- like the one magneto used to determine captain universe spidey wasn't a mutant, something like: 
 
"mutants abilities are based around one specific power" 
 
now a mutant can still do a lot, but. . . .  
 
i'v had campaigns like that- it think you'll fing the whole 'has superpowers' idea didn't really suit it- all the others sound much more subtle to me, even though no doubt the eb were flying nontheless. I would suggest that the pc COULD have suited this settting- he could be wierd in his own way, imagine if the other pc's never got to meet him? But this is a matter of character, and setting, not the 'powergamer' archetype. 
   
 
 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 12:42:48 +1000 
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From: "Happyelf! (u asked fer it) *eg*" <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers 
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At 04:04 PM 9/6/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>In a message dated 97-09-05 07:39:30 EDT, rook@sanfran.infinex.com (Brian 
>Wong) writes: 
> 
><< 	You know; that's a good point. Too many people who GM put themselves 
> on this high, undemocratic chair. Once there they ruthlessly beat down any 
> discention amoung the ranks. No viewpoint but the GM's becomes valid. 
> 	How did we reach this state when the hobby comes from a country which 
> prides itself on it's claim to democratic ideals. Or even in a hobby which 
> itself proclaims cooperation over competition.>> 
> 
>I agree and I disagree at the same time.  The GM has to weigh a number of 
>different things in order to run a game properly... 
> 
>A)  The Storyline. 
>B)  The Characters. 
>C)  The Players. 
> 
>The GM has to enforce both the genre and the storyline at the same time.  If 
>a player insists on doing things that takes the character "off on a tangent" 
>it's the GM's job to get the players back "on the storyline" in the least 
>obtrusive way possible.  Flying off on an unrelated plotline can be deadly, 
>both to a face to face game and in a message based game.  If one character is 
>doing it on his or her own, then the rest of the players end up sitting 
>around doing nothing and getting bored.  If one character (or more) 
>character(s) are involved, then the best trick is to somehow change the red 
>herring to a different color (much easier to do in message based game).  The 
>GM also has to keep in mind what he or she is prepared to run and what they 
>can not run.  If the players go off on such a wild tangent that the GM didn't 
>have time to prepare for it, then only disaster can ensue. 
> 
 
sorry, but rubbish. Improvisation is the basis of roleplaying, and a good gm won't use this sort of attitude to herd the pc's back on track. That tired old 'other players get bored' thing is obslete- why not let them control npc's? or just switch back and forth?  
anyone who's channel-surfed will be able to keep up. ...  
There's also the ideal of leading the back conceptually- relating the 'stray plot'  
to the larger story, which is a classic plot twist: 
 
"so, this is your cousin clarence? pleased to meet- oh, my god! he bears the mark of flubby!" 
 
 
>A good segment of roleplaying players like to play characters that are "the 
>best at what they do."  (I consider myself in the minority as I find 
>characters with flaws are much more interesting to play.)   
 
what? so being good at one thing pakes a character flawless? sorry again, but no likely! 
i'd say having high horsepower AND other frailties can be very interesting. . . 
 
 
>Problems usually 
>occur when one character is vastly more powerful or experienced than the 
>other characters.  It's the GM's job to somehow keep the Robins of his gaming 
>world as important as the Supermans, when they're PCs of course.  This is an 
>incredibly hard task to accomplish without pissing off someone. 
> 
 
again with the extremes! if all the pc's have equal CP they should be playing between two possible extremes- 
 
high power, little experiance (skills, csl's and sl's) - i.e. gen X mutant types. .  
 
Low power, hight experiance - i.e. martial artists, grizzled old vetrans, mystery men 
 
 
>Ontop of all this, there will always be players that are more outgoing then 
>others.  Just like balancing the character's importance in the game, you have 
>to balance the importance of the "attention getter" with the "wallflower." 
> If you don't, both will end up loosing interest. 
> 
 
and this has what to do with power-gaming?  
 
 
>What players have to come to terms with is "the GM's word is law."  This 
>works as long as the GM doesn't take the term too seriously.  The idea is to 
>have fun.  The players are participating in a fantasy that's being created in 
>the head of the GM.  The GM usually has reasons for most decisions.  Debating 
>each decision isn't what I would call fun. 
> 
 
and yet stray plot threads are still tantamount to the apocalypse in your opinion?  
Not too seriousley at all. ..  
 
>I've been on both sides of the above situations...  When GMs have had falling 
>ons with a player in a game and so forth.  The only good way to deal with it 
>is as quickly as possible.  If you don't let it lie, it usually ends up 
>escalating into something much worse. 
> 
>Jason Galterio 
> 
 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 21:48:48 -0500 (CDT) 
From: vanadium@ix.netcom.com (Carl Gilchrist) 
Subject: Re: Vari-multi pools 
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One of the things I have done for variable power pools, and that I  
require for almost every VPP in my campaign, is the limitation: 
 
based on active points -1/4 
 
what this means is that it does not matter what limitations get placed  
on the power for how many points the power takes up in the pool, ie 
 
a 10d6 energy blast will always take up 50 points out of the vpp, there  
is no other reason to take limitations on the powers in the vpp,  
thereby making the vpp a widescale multipower,  
 
however, most of the characters who have VPPs are magicians and they  
also end up taking a limitation on the control cost on their VPP of 
 
variable limitation -1/4 and up, 
 
so these magicians do take limitations on their powers in the VPP  
because their control cost says they have to. But the real points of  
the power still don't matter for how many powers will fit in the VPP. 
 
Success... 
 
 
--  
Vanadium@ix.netcom.com          |  "Life is no longer about 'just surviving', 
                                |          that's why we have refrigerators." 
                                |                             -O. Stephens 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 12:53:36 +1000 
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From: "Happyelf! (u asked fer it) *eg*" <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
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At 04:53 PM 9/6/97 -0500, you wrote: 
 
<lots of good points> 
 
 Another reason.  When you have a character that is  
>more powerful, say he could take a 20d6 attack and the rest of the team can  
>only take a 14d6 attack.  Say he also could deal as good as he could take  
>and same with the team.  All of a sudden, he is either wiping up all the  
>villians they normally are equal with OR the team is facing villians that  
>only he could handle.  Either way, made many of my players feel like sitting  
>down and watching him show his stuff. 
 
so what? is that valid- dice of damage? most bricks fit this category, this is what i meant about the gm requiring all the pc's to have the same abilities- same damage, same defences, ect.. .  
 
 
 
> 
> 
>>how? how does MR pg get the points for the skills on top of anything else? 
> 
>Simple, Mr. PG knows how to get point breaks.  Knows where to throw various  
>limitations, and knows how to bend the rules enough that where everyone else  
>weighs in around 300 points, maybe up to 350 active.  He is coming in around  
>400 - 500 active points.  Loved the personal unbreakable focus he did. 
> 
>>  
>>>This is the point where I as the GM am to say NO.  So Mr. Power Gamer goes  
>>>back home and the next week comes back with another character.  This time he  
>>>only has familiarities in the skills and his TK is even more powerful  
>>>because he had the points to do it.  I say NO again, he scratches out some  
>>>stuff and adds the points to his TK.  Now I say NO to the TK, he goes back  
>>>home.  Meanwhile, the rest of my players are frustrated playing with him and  
>>>frustrated wasting game time because this guy is a power gamer.   
>> 
>>so if somebody hadn't used the term 'power gamer' evberybody would wait  
>patiently? 
> 
>No, they would still get pretty frustrated, and the term power gamer was  
>never actually spoken at the time, though everyone knew from playing with  
>him.  By the way there was more than one.  Just giving an example. 
> 
>>>If  I would  
>>>have stopped it and said, "Ok, give me your character sheet, I'll adapt him  
>>>to the right level for next game."  The trouble will be done and over with.   
>>>He might not be happy, but the majority of the players will be including  
>>>myself.  I will state that this is not an exaggeration.  I have had this  
>>>happen on more than one occasion (way to many than I can say).  Simply  
>>>asking the player not to play does not work since he is friends with half  
>>>the group and they want him there, just not his characters.  I have had more  
>>>than one player do it.  I try to let players design there own characters and  
>>>give them that freedom, but there comes a point where I pull the plug on it.  
>>> Ok, so I might have rambled on a bit here.  My point is, exactly.  Jean  
>>>Grey can be the most powerful TK and the PC can not unless of course I OK  
>>>it.  If a player sits down and gives me an origin saying I'm the most  
>>>powerful TK on the planet, without ever telling me before hand then we have  
>>>to talk.  Or of course, I just prove him wrong :) 
>>> 
>>>Sparx 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>most of the logic above hinges on the statement 'because he's a powergamer'- 
>>that's not a valid argument. I do not see how you can label someone a  
>power-gamer  
>>just because they want a cool power. 
> 
>Well, it is a valid arguement, considering the name of the posts are  
>"Curbing the Power Gamer" you would think that the Curbing the Power Gamer  
>would be the subject of conversation.  Let me see if I do understand you  
>here though.  You are saying if someone wanted a cool power and they weren't  
>a power gamer would I allow it?  Yes, I would.  If someone that I have  
>played with and found to be a good player came to me and asked to be the  
>most powerful TK I would probably ok it, letting them know that it is  
>possible the character will be removed it a problem arises.  Or what they  
>think is the most powerful may turn out to be wrong.  Someone here even  
>pointed out that they would only allow 80 Str making many villians more  
>powerful than them. 
> 
> I have played both ends of the spectrum, and  
>>so called 'power gamers' tend to build more interesting pc's- you say above  
>that  
>>power gamers cover the other pc's skill, but isn't that what 'balanced'  
>pc's are about? 
> 
>No, see my definition above.  I'm not sure what you are asking here.  Is it  
>possible for a player to have a balanced character.  Sure.  Is it possible  
>that a kid with martial arts can also be a computer programmer, lion  
>trainer, professional burglar, and scientist by the age of 16?  Probably  
>not, ecspecially if he or she is just doing it so he or she can be better  
>than the computer programmer, professional burglar and scientist on the team  
>already. 
> 
>>It seems 'balanced' is defined as an entire team of heros, all who can  
>bounce bullets, have mental and power defence, plus all having 'useful  
>noncombat skills' - i.e.  
> 
>That's not what I said.  I currently am running a game where each character  
>has strong points and weak points and very few overlap each other.  The team  
>needs each other to be balanced.  Very seldom do you find one individual who  
>can do it all. 
> 
>>skills to go with whatever cliche the group endorses- " if your a master of  
>disguise you should have acting' is one, another is 'you should take points  
>out of computer programming and buy electronics' is another.  
>> 
> 
>True enough, skills should compliment each other.  It doesn't make sense  
>when you just have every skill on the list, just to have them.  There are  
>exceptions of course, but for the average hero? 
> 
>>What it comes down to is that despite all the stuff about power-gamers,  
>their character are actually more realistic- what's more likely, someone  
>getting one power or many?  
> 
>More realistic?  I don't think so.  There is a difference in being balanced  
>and using mechanics to be superior to all other players on the team.  Sure  
>that would be balanced if you helped each and every player make a similiar  
>character, but if you play in a world where everyone has one or two powers,  
>you know this, and you come in with 10 or 12 powers just to rival them how  
>do you think they'll feel? 
> 
>Sparx 
> 
> 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 12:56:46 +1000 
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From: "Happyelf! (u asked fer it) *eg*" <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
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At 04:59 PM 9/6/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>>>> 
>>>>Guy 
>>> 
>>>Woah there, I think you have me mistaken for someone else.  What I am saying  
>>>is that the NPC exists as a balance and a reference point for me and the  
>>>players.  Now, let's see, if I were to ask any of my players to name TK NPC  
>>>or even the sex of this character, they wouldn't be able to.  Why?  Because  
>>>they've never met him before.  I don't run many NPC characters.  They exist,  
>>>because I run a game where other heroes are known to exist.  They also exist  
>>>so Mr. Power Gamer doesn't come in and say I'm the most powerful hero on the  
>>>planet simply because he is the best of the PCs.  No, he isn't there are  
>>>NPCs he has to take in account too.  And being a super hero doesn't give you  
>>>access to the Super Hero Club where you know each and every hero.   
>>> 
>> 
>>what the hell is wrong with him saying tha? are you saying if someone says  
>that, then mr mets-TK turns up and stomps him? i really hope i've  
>misunderstood. . . 
>>and i really hope i'm not making points people have already made and had  
>replied to later on (80 posts and counting) *lol* 
> 
>I really don't mean to misunderstand you here, but it is kind of choppy,  
>could you reword this.  I'll answer what I think you mean and explain.  If  
>you are saying what is wrong with him saying he hates that kind of game and  
>it seems he is accusing me of running that kind of game, then the problem  
>with that him saying that is he jumping to a rather large conclusion.  Since 
> 
>a.  I don't 
>b.  He has never seen/played/ or heard about the games I run. 
>c.  It is an insult to me simply based on the fact that he jumped to that  
>conclusion.   
> 
 
i'm talking about the pc saying he's top of the heap. are you saying this force guy  
would turn up and pound him for saying it? what else could you mean? 
 
 
>If you are asking what happens and Mr. TK (Force) turns up.  Chances are he  
>wouldn't pound anybody.  If you've read my other posts he would probably be  
>seeking the characters out for help because it was something he couldn't do,  
>handle, or just was unavailable.  If it were to break down into a fight,  
>then chances are a organized team of PCs could take Force out anyway.   
>Though I'm not sure why they would do that.  If the players are worried in  
>the beginning about being able to win every battle then there is a problem  
>already.  I announce at the beginning of my campaign that sometimes you HAVE  
>to run.  You don't win every battle, and if you did, why bother rolling the  
>dice in the first place? 
> 
>Sparx 
> 
> 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick 
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>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes: 
 
q> If you want a pure super-slick surface, try an Entangle with 
q> appropriate limitations and advantages. 
 
The problem with using Entangle for this is that a high Strength will get 
one out of it.  No advantage changes this aspect of Entangle. 
 
Draining/Suppressing/Dispelling Dexterity does not work either because 
simply adjusting someone's DEX does not force him to make a Dexterity roll 
as normally required for attempting to traverse such a surface. 
 
That is why I say to use Change Environment, which also happens to be the 
one power in the book that can be used to "force" characters to make 
characteristic rolls.  Change Environment: "fog" or "heavy rain" may 
require one to make periodic sight perception roll to navigate. 
 
And if a mugger is using the fog for cover, and his target fails his 
perception roll -- a roll that he may not have needed in clear weather -- 
does the target still have his DCV reduced against the mugger?  I say, 
"yes," and I think most will agree. 
 
And if so, then why would not Change Environment: "slippery surface" have a 
similar effect, requiring a Dexterity roll (or simply having the Acrobatics 
skill) instead of perception? 
 
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Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 13:02:59 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: "Happyelf! (u asked fer it) *eg*" <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer) 
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At 05:05 PM 9/6/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>>why wpuld it do this? why would a psycic compete with an energy projector?  
>>what, in active point totals? 
> 
>If you can ask why, then you are blessed with some good players.  I don't  
>know what type of games you play, I don't know what type of players you  
>have.  I know my players and I base my experiences, references, and opinions  
>from the games I'm involved in.  There is no "RIGHT" here.   My way could be  
>completely wrong for your game, your style, or this whole list.  I do what  
>works for me and my gaming group and it does work.  I've learned from other  
>GMs, the player's opinions, and trial-and-error.  How would they compete you  
>ask.  Not by competeing a mentalist vs an energy projector, by making  
>another energy projector to top the last. 
> 
> 
 
 cop out, cop out, cop out!  
 
>>why not stop it before it starts and say, "You are NOT the  
>>>most powerful."  This doesn't say you can't become the most powerful, it  
>>>simply states you aren't starting a character that is.  Makes sense to me,  
>>>maybe I'm just odd that way.  Talk at you later. 
>>> 
>> 
>>very odd- a beginning pc can still be brimming with power, especially if  
>they are meant to have had a career before the campaign started. The trick  
>is to balance points efficiance- the classic 'new mutant' is one with lots  
>of horsepower, but few skills, ect. Why is this wrong? are we back to the  
>'points spent on skills equals better roleplayer' fallacy? 
> 
>No, in fact, I enjoy the fact that some players come to the table with a new  
>character that has some experience prior to game play.  I enjoy seeing the  
>powerful character even.  My statement was don't come to the table thinking  
>you are the most powerful X because you probably aren't, come to the table  
>to have fun and role play and be a team player. 
> 
>Sparx 
> 
> 
 
what's wrong with thinkin that? IT'S A GAME! look, sorry, but this is sounding a lot like a compeditive gm who want's the pc's to feel inferior to his creations. There is NO reason that feeling like yer pc is tough is EVER going to cause problems in itself- if anything, you may be adopting a compeditive attitude just as much as they are.  
 
 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Telekinesis 
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>>>>> "WGG" == William G Geiger <willggeiger@juno.com> writes: 
 
WGG> Yes, base TK is Visible, vs. OCV/DCV.  The biggest problem I have with 
WGG> TK Based on ECV is that I'm not sure you can affect non-sentient 
WGG> targets with it. 
 
TK is basically Strength that can be used at range.  All that BoECV will do 
is shift from using Dexterity to Ego for offensive CV.  TK with BoECV still 
has its normal Strength rating, and that can (only!) affect physical 
things. 
 
WGG> If you plan on making a character with an EGO higher than his DEX, 
WGG> consider buying extra DEX, for TK CV only (-1) [my own estimate, 
WGG> considering you get no adds to SPD, DCV, other OCVs, initiative, 
WGG> etc.]. 
 
Cheaper to buy a few combat skill levels with TK, if you absolutely must 
have the same OCV. 
 
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                                    \  
 
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 13:05:51 +1000 
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From: "Happyelf! (u asked fer it) *eg*" <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer) 
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At 05:08 PM 9/6/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>>what's wrong with strongest? and how about this- sure you can control the  
>elements, but not very well yet. .  let 'em have the horsepower, just limit  
>their control..  . 
> 
>Nothing is wrong with the Strongest if you don't mind giving them that  
>title. Then you have to make sure you stick to that title as a GM.   
> 
>Player:  I thought you said I was the strongest.  :( 
>GM:  You are. 
>Player:  Well, then how come when I was flipping through my book I found  
>this enemy and he is stronger than me. 
>GM:  I lowered his strength (make mental note to lower strength if ever  
>confronted.)   
>Player2:  I wanted to be strongest. 
> 
 
yeah, THAT's what'd happen. . . .. any average player would take it as a challenge- 
i'm not talkiing about the GM saying to the player 'your pc is the best X', i'm talking about that being a general idea in the campaign- maybe he's only called the strongest 'cause he's got good pr? 
 
 
>It just gets out of hand in my opinion.  Why would you give a player a piece  
>of candy like that for a fight to break out over?  I do like you said  
>though, like giving them the horsepower just not the control over it.  YOU  
>have the POTENTIAL to be the strongest. 
> 
>Sparx 
> 
> 
 
candy? what, you'd rather keep it all for yourself? 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 13:09:54 +1000 
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From: "Happyelf! (u asked fer it) *eg*" <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer) 
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At 07:30 PM 9/6/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>I my old superhero game I did have a PC who was one of the strongest men 
>in the world.  He didn't have any trouble with the knowledge that there 
>were a few people who had more STR than he did, because his character 
>certainly never intended to fill that niche.  In my current game the PCs 
>are wel aware that there are several NPCs (two actually) that outclass 
>them totally in terms of power.  This is a cool thing in thier opinion 
>since the presence of either of these NPCs in a scenario forces them to 
>think fast and try and come up with a creative solution to the problem 
>(ie. no shootouts).  Works pretty well. 
> 
 
 
 
i'm not talking about 'total power', i'm talking aobut 'being best at X'. . .  
 
 
 
>*************************************************************************** 
>* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
>*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
>*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
>* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
>*************************************************************************** 
> 
> 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 13:34:24 +1000 
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From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers 
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At 11:09 PM 9/6/97 +0600, you wrote: 
>>sorry, but rubbish. Improvisation is the basis of roleplaying, and a good 
>gm won't use this sort of attitude to herd the pc's back on track. That 
>tired old 'other players get bored' thing is obslete- why not let them 
>control npc's? or just switch back and forth?  
>>anyone who's channel-surfed will be able to keep up. ...  
>>There's also the ideal of leading the back conceptually- relating the 
>'stray plot'  
>>to the larger story, which is a classic plot twist: 
> 
>Well, I have personally had more luck than some with the "channel-surfing" 
>in the game.  The last group I started, they met in groups of two, and I 
>alternated between three different pairs until they all met in the center 
>(of the plot and, incidentally, a shopping mall). 
>But I know some people's experiences ain't so hoopy.  Some of mine haven't 
>been.  Wandering attention spans, sneaking off to get a smoke, look in the 
>fridge (ignore the game, is what I mean)... 
> 
 
so it's a talent to be aquired- but does that really preclude the freedom such a split entails? 
 
 
>>"so, this is your cousin clarence? pleased to meet- oh, my god! he bears 
>the mark of flubby!" 
> 
>Incidentally...  Don't look now, Jones, but...  YOU bear the mark of flubby! 
>: ) 
> 
 
we all bear the mark of flubby, my son, the pc's in that example were aliens *lol* 
 
 
>>>A good segment of roleplaying players like to play characters that are "the 
>>>best at what they do."  (I consider myself in the minority as I find 
>>>characters with flaws are much more interesting to play.)   
>> 
>>what? so being good at one thing pakes a character flawless? sorry again, 
>but no likely! 
>>i'd say having high horsepower AND other frailties can be very interesting. . . 
>> 
> 
>Don't think that's what he's saying.  I think he means that most peoply tend 
>to stratify characters to those two extremes.  Obviously, you don't.  I, 
>too, might enjoy playing a *very* eccentric genius...  That would fit both 
>o' those types. 
> 
 
but how can you have an extremly powerful character with no flaws? no disadvantages? no limitations? where'd he get the points- galactus????? 
 
 
>>>Problems usually 
>>>occur when one character is vastly more powerful or experienced than the 
>>>other characters.  It's the GM's job to somehow keep the Robins of his gaming 
>>>world as important as the Supermans, when they're PCs of course.  This is an 
>>>incredibly hard task to accomplish without pissing off someone. 
>>> 
>> 
>>again with the extremes! if all the pc's have equal CP they should be 
>playing between two possible extremes- 
>>high power, little experiance (skills, csl's and sl's) - i.e. gen X mutant 
>types. .  
>>Low power, hight experiance - i.e. martial artists, grizzled old vetrans, 
>mystery men 
>> 
> 
>Some players I know, when they started out, were scared off Disadvantages. 
>The old argument of "But those would Disadvantage me!"  : )  So, they were 
>built on less points.  Also, players more experienced with the system can 
>eke *many* more effective points out of their characters than, say, someone 
>who won't take *any* Limitations on their Powers, or who doesn't know where 
>the Characteristic point breaks are. 
> 
 
the trick is to limit anal character creation behaviour. If you make sure the pc's are not ultra-efficient, or at least everybody is on the same level, most powergamer problems fall bu the wayside 
 
>>>Ontop of all this, there will always be players that are more outgoing then 
>>>others.  Just like balancing the character's importance in the game, you have 
>>>to balance the importance of the "attention getter" with the "wallflower." 
>>> If you don't, both will end up loosing interest. 
>>> 
>> 
>>and this has what to do with power-gaming?  
>> 
>Here's where I have the biggest problem with your comments.  This isn't 
>(neccessarily) about Power-Gaming.  I don't believe the previous poster 
>brought it up at all, really.  He was speaking more of playing style than 
>character creation.  Hence, this isn't the thread entitled "Curbing the 
>Power Gamer." 
> 
><snipped the end> 
> 
>- Jerry 
> 
> 
 
the rationale for this disgussion is based around the idea of evil power-players destroying nice happy roleplay groups. This is a powerful image, if a bit far-fetched.The reason i commented on that bit is that i considered it to be kinda a bit obvious- the problem is i saw it as being phrased in suppoer of the previous points- "just like balancing the characters importance" - 
in fact these two points are completly seperate, i was merely pointing this out.  
 
 
 
From: Legionair@aol.com 
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 23:56:34 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers 
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In a message dated 97-09-06 22:46:03 EDT, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
 
<<sorry, but rubbish. Improvisation is the basis of roleplaying, and a good 
gm won't use this sort of attitude to herd the pc's back on track. That tired 
old 'other players get bored' thing is obslete- why not let them control 
npc's? or just switch back and forth?  anyone who's channel-surfed will be 
able to keep up. ...  There's also the ideal of leading the back 
conceptually- relating the 'stray plot'  to the larger story, which is a 
classic plot twist:>> 
 
I'm trying real hard not to take offense at your reply, but the tone of it 
makes it incredibly hard, just for your information. 
 
First, improvisition of a storyline is not what I was referring to. 
 Improvisition of an entire situation was what I meant.  If the GM is not 
prepared for the circumstances then it's really hard to deal with the various 
plot threads.  For instance, if the characters should suddenly decide to raid 
a police station, out of the blue, for no reason that GM would have expected. 
 All of a sudden the GM might have to come up with a half dozen somewhat 
important NPCs and a dozen or so non-important NPCs.  What I said was the GM 
should remember what he or she is prepared for and what he or she is not 
ready for. 
 
"That tired old other players get bored thing is obsolete." is really 
rubbish.  Evidently you haven't played in a message based game that had a 
long, undue pause for book keeping or rules lawyering. 
 
I also place more importance on the general plot structure than to shuffle 
players around willy-nilly. 
 
Channel suffering is not a term I like to use to describe my games, whether 
I'm running or playing them.  I consider my games more of a storyline rather 
than an MTV montage. 
  
<<what? so being good at one thing pakes a character flawless? sorry again, 
but no likely!  i'd say having high horsepower AND other frailties can be 
very interesting. . .>> 
 
Nevermind on this topic line.  You either didn't read what I originally 
posted or misunderstood it. 
 
<<again with the extremes! if all the pc's have equal CP they should be 
playing between two possible extremes- high power, little experiance (skills, 
csl's and sl's) - i.e. gen X mutant types. .  Low power, hight experiance - 
i.e. martial artists, grizzled old vetrans, mystery men>> 
 
Again, I might be in the minority, but I feel that a player's character 
concept is more important than how many points were used.  If there is a 
character a player wants to play, that happens to be well balanced, then I 
could not care less whether the player used one hundred points or one 
thousand. 
 
That being the case, not all of the character's in my games can be conviently 
slotted like that.  Diversity is what keeps the game interesting. 
 
<<and this has what to do with power-gaming?>> 
 
Aboslutely nothing, should it? 
 
Jason Galterio 
 
From: Legionair@aol.com 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:10:14 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers 
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In a message dated 97-09-06 23:16:34 EDT, jdriscol@vt.edu writes: 
 
<<Well, I have personally had more luck than some with the "channel-surfing" 
 in the game.  The last group I started, they met in groups of two, and I 
 alternated between three different pairs until they all met in the center 
 (of the plot and, incidentally, a shopping mall). 
 But I know some people's experiences ain't so hoopy.  Some of mine haven't 
 been.  Wandering attention spans, sneaking off to get a smoke, look in the 
 fridge (ignore the game, is what I mean)...>> 
 
Again, I don't feel that "channel-surfing" should be the measuring stick for 
describing a game.  I just feel that inaction can always be deadly, in any 
game.  People's attenion wanders quickly when things are going on that aren't 
directly involved with the game at hand. 
 
That doesn't mean that having a solo plot thread is deadly...  Just that 
spending twenty minutes arguing over the verbage used for a particular 
passage in the rulebook is deadly. 
  
<<Don't think that's what he's saying.  I think he means that most peoply 
tend 
 to stratify characters to those two extremes.  Obviously, you don't.  I, 
 too, might enjoy playing a *very* eccentric genius...  That would fit both 
 o' those types.>> 
 
The previous reading of my opinion was not what I meant.  When people sit 
down to play a Champions game, for instance, most of the time they have a 
character concept in mind... 
 
If they want to play a nighttime vigilante, then they have to be as good as 
Batman.  If they're playing a speedster, they have to run faster than light 
and be able to dodge raindrops.  They don't want to play characters that have 
any odd character flaws. 
 
I'm not saying that *everyone* is like this, but you see it often enough. 
 "But, in the comics, Batman can knock guns out of people's hands easily." 
and "Spiderman dodges machinegun fire all the time." 
 
<<Some players I know, when they started out, were scared off Disadvantages. 
 The old argument of "But those would Disadvantage me!"  : )  So, they were 
 built on less points.  Also, players more experienced with the system can 
 eke *many* more effective points out of their characters than, say, someone 
 who won't take *any* Limitations on their Powers, or who doesn't know where 
 the Characteristic point breaks are.>> 
 
Exactly the point I was trying to make. 
  
<<Here's where I have the biggest problem with your comments.  This isn't 
 (neccessarily) about Power-Gaming.  I don't believe the previous poster 
 brought it up at all, really.  He was speaking more of playing style than 
 character creation.  Hence, this isn't the thread entitled "Curbing the 
 Power Gamer.">> 
 
No, I didn't.  I actually didn't find a need to reply to those threads. 
 Thanks. 
 
Jason Galterio 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 14:33:52 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers 
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At 11:56 PM 9/6/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>In a message dated 97-09-06 22:46:03 EDT, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
> 
><<sorry, but rubbish. Improvisation is the basis of roleplaying, and a good 
>gm won't use this sort of attitude to herd the pc's back on track. That tired 
>old 'other players get bored' thing is obslete- why not let them control 
>npc's? or just switch back and forth?  anyone who's channel-surfed will be 
>able to keep up. ...  There's also the ideal of leading the back 
>conceptually- relating the 'stray plot'  to the larger story, which is a 
>classic plot twist:>> 
> 
>I'm trying real hard not to take offense at your reply, but the tone of it 
>makes it incredibly hard, just for your information. 
> 
 
i'm amazed you can hear my voice through email at all.  
 
 
>First, improvisition of a storyline is not what I was referring to. 
> Improvisition of an entire situation was what I meant.  If the GM is not 
>prepared for the circumstances then it's really hard to deal with the various 
>plot threads.  For instance, if the characters should suddenly decide to raid 
>a police station, out of the blue, for no reason that GM would have expected. 
> All of a sudden the GM might have to come up with a half dozen somewhat 
>important NPCs and a dozen or so non-important NPCs.  What I said was the GM 
>should remember what he or she is prepared for and what he or she is not 
>ready for. 
> 
 
I was talking about improvising situations.  
All these things can be done on the fly- and you should have a cop drawn up anyway.  
No amount of unpreparedness is an excuse for hobbling the players freedom. That's what roleplaying is about, not just a captive audience for the gm's plots.  
 
>"That tired old other players get bored thing is obsolete." is really 
>rubbish.  Evidently you haven't played in a message based game that had a 
>long, undue pause for book keeping or rules lawyering. 
> 
 
message based? like bluebooking or what? i play irc constantly- all you have to do is go back and forth- rules layering has nothing to do with spliting the party or any of that, and as for book keeping? can't it wait? And buy the way, useing a particular interface or method with a given set of weaknesses to argue against a concept in general is pointless- i play a game by email, where we avoid normal combat: does that mean normal combat is obselete for all games? Hence, such a point is obselete in general, it's probably obselete in all areas if you take advantage of the interface. 
 
>I also place more importance on the general plot structure than to shuffle 
>players around willy-nilly. 
> 
 
this statement doesn't really make much sence- general plot structure? if player a wants to do X while the rest of the group goes of somewhere else than, THAT's the plot, NOT 
whatever you had planned- otherwise how do the players contribute? do they have to clear everything throught you before the game? 
 
 
>Channel suffering is not a term I like to use to describe my games, whether 
>I'm running or playing them.  I consider my games more of a storyline rather 
>than an MTV montage. 
>  
 
right- YOU'RE storyline, not the players. And every other type of storytelling in existance has scene changes, asides, switches of perspective and so forth- why can't roleplaying? I'm not talking a montage here, just something simmilar to pretty much every story ever written. 
 
><<what? so being good at one thing pakes a character flawless? sorry again, 
>but no likely!  i'd say having high horsepower AND other frailties can be 
>very interesting. . .>> 
> 
>Nevermind on this topic line.  You either didn't read what I originally 
>posted or misunderstood it. 
> 
 
how did i misunderstand? i believe the error was yours. . . 
 
><<again with the extremes! if all the pc's have equal CP they should be 
>playing between two possible extremes- high power, little experiance (skills, 
>csl's and sl's) - i.e. gen X mutant types. .  Low power, hight experiance - 
>i.e. martial artists, grizzled old vetrans, mystery men>> 
> 
>Again, I might be in the minority, but I feel that a player's character 
>concept is more important than how many points were used.  If there is a 
>character a player wants to play, that happens to be well balanced, then I 
>could not care less whether the player used one hundred points or one 
>thousand. 
> 
>That being the case, not all of the character's in my games can be conviently 
>slotted like that.  Diversity is what keeps the game interesting. 
> 
 
let me get this straight- i was responding to someone going on about 'superman and robin' and I'M the one putting people in slots? And besides i did say 'IF', and it was a clearly valid generalisation to make viv-a-vis character creation concepts. Frankly, you said this to disprove my point, and i'd be very suprised if you actually play the game this way, especially considering you don't handle improvisation at all. Anyone can see that i am FOR diversity, in a far more constructive sence than someone hypothesising about thousand point starting pc's.  
 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 14:44:14 +1000 
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From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers 
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At 12:10 AM 9/7/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>In a message dated 97-09-06 23:16:34 EDT, jdriscol@vt.edu writes: 
> 
><<Well, I have personally had more luck than some with the "channel-surfing" 
> in the game.  The last group I started, they met in groups of two, and I 
> alternated between three different pairs until they all met in the center 
> (of the plot and, incidentally, a shopping mall). 
> But I know some people's experiences ain't so hoopy.  Some of mine haven't 
> been.  Wandering attention spans, sneaking off to get a smoke, look in the 
> fridge (ignore the game, is what I mean)...>> 
> 
>Again, I don't feel that "channel-surfing" should be the measuring stick for 
>describing a game.  I just feel that inaction can always be deadly, in any 
>game.  People's attenion wanders quickly when things are going on that aren't 
>directly involved with the game at hand. 
> 
 
like i sadi- let them control npc's. .  
 
 
>That doesn't mean that having a solo plot thread is deadly...  Just that 
>spending twenty minutes arguing over the verbage used for a particular 
>passage in the rulebook is deadly. 
>  
 
what has this got to do with improvising plot, or splitting the party? and don't say 'nothing- so what' again, ok? 
 
 
><<Don't think that's what he's saying.  I think he means that most peoply 
>tend 
> to stratify characters to those two extremes.  Obviously, you don't.  I, 
> too, might enjoy playing a *very* eccentric genius...  That would fit both 
> o' those types.>> 
> 
>The previous reading of my opinion was not what I meant.  When people sit 
>down to play a Champions game, for instance, most of the time they have a 
>character concept in mind... 
> 
>If they want to play a nighttime vigilante, then they have to be as good as 
>Batman.  If they're playing a speedster, they have to run faster than light 
>and be able to dodge raindrops.  They don't want to play characters that have 
>any odd character flaws. 
> 
 
why is that so? just because someone's fast, doesn't mean they don't have flaws! have you been readibng the flash? 
 
 
>I'm not saying that *everyone* is like this, but you see it often enough. 
> "But, in the comics, Batman can knock guns out of people's hands easily." 
>and "Spiderman dodges machinegun fire all the time." 
> 
 
this is a matter of point power- once again, it has noting to do with a flawless character, it's just a case of someone wanting to be good at A_GIVEN_SINGLE_TASK! 
is this unnaceptable? this is a superheroic roleplaying game! the system is called 'HERO', not 'LOSER!'   
people have a right to be to be good at SOMETHING! 
 
 
><<Some players I know, when they started out, were scared off Disadvantages. 
> The old argument of "But those would Disadvantage me!"  : )  So, they were 
> built on less points.  Also, players more experienced with the system can 
> eke *many* more effective points out of their characters than, say, someone 
> who won't take *any* Limitations on their Powers, or who doesn't know where 
> the Characteristic point breaks are.>> 
> 
>Exactly the point I was trying to make. 
>  
 
well why did you say all that stuff about flaws? this isn't a csae of the players doing anything- it's a case of the gm not controlling how the group uses power modifiers.  
 
><<Here's where I have the biggest problem with your comments.  This isn't 
> (neccessarily) about Power-Gaming.  I don't believe the previous poster 
> brought it up at all, really.  He was speaking more of playing style than 
> character creation.  Hence, this isn't the thread entitled "Curbing the 
> Power Gamer.">> 
> 
>No, I didn't.  I actually didn't find a need to reply to those threads. 
> Thanks. 
> 
>Jason Galterio 
> 
 
 
 
From: Legionair@aol.com 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:56:37 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers 
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In a message dated 97-09-07 00:53:56 EDT, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au writes: 
 
<< what has this got to do with improvising plot, or splitting the party? and 
don't say 'nothing- so what' again, ok? >> 
 
Nothing - So what. 
 
Actually, I refuse to get involved in a flame war with you, so I'm actually 
just going to forget that I ever got involved in this thread.  Thanks. 
 
Jason 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:07:15 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer) 
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>I my old superhero game I did have a PC who was one of the strongest men 
>in the world.  He didn't have any trouble with the knowledge that there 
>were a few people who had more STR than he did, because his character 
>certainly never intended to fill that niche.  In my current game the PCs 
>are wel aware that there are several NPCs (two actually) that outclass 
>them totally in terms of power.  This is a cool thing in thier opinion 
>since the presence of either of these NPCs in a scenario forces them to 
>think fast and try and come up with a creative solution to the problem 
>(ie. no shootouts).  Works pretty well. 
 
My point exactly.  Works out well in my games too.  Take it easy and talk at  
you later. 
 
Sparx 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 15:14:58 +1000 
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From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers 
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i trie this private, then it was reposted public, so here goes. ..  
 
>At 12:56 AM 9/7/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>>In a message dated 97-09-07 00:53:56 EDT, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au writes: 
>> 
>><< what has this got to do with improvising plot, or splitting the party? and 
>>don't say 'nothing- so what' again, ok? >> 
>> 
>>Nothing - So what. 
>> 
 
so you used it as a support of your argument despite it clearly being irrelevant! 
 
 
>>Actually, I refuse to get involved in a flame war with you, so I'm actually 
>>just going to forget that I ever got involved in this thread.  Thanks. 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
>Please keep your hystreonics to yourself. I'm not interested in people who  
>make a severly invalid point, then get insulted, then make a point apparently in support of an issue which it cannot possibly support, then label me and antagonist because i point this out. What you call flaming i call disagreement, i'm terribly sorry i didn't realise this list was designed for mutual admiration purposes only.  
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:18:03 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
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>At 04:53 PM 9/6/97 -0500, you wrote: 
> 
><lots of good points> 
> 
> Another reason.  When you have a character that is  
>>more powerful, say he could take a 20d6 attack and the rest of the team can  
>>only take a 14d6 attack.  Say he also could deal as good as he could take  
>>and same with the team.  All of a sudden, he is either wiping up all the  
>>villians they normally are equal with OR the team is facing villians that  
>>only he could handle.  Either way, made many of my players feel like sitting  
>>down and watching him show his stuff. 
> 
>so what? is that valid- dice of damage? most bricks fit this category, this  
is what i meant about the gm requiring all the pc's to have the same  
abilities- same damage, same defences, ect.. .  
 
Is this valid damage?  That depends on the campaign I would suppose.  My  
point is fine, you are saying this fits most brick classes which it does,  
but when this brick can out fight (OCV/DCV)a martial artists, out think a  
scientist, and out wit a burglar along with being more powerful than the  
rest of the team, he or she has crossed a line somewhere.  You are telling  
me that you don't like GMs requiring all players to have the same damage,  
same defenses, etc...but now it comes down to the players making the rule  
for themselves they all have to have the same damage, defenses, and skills  
to compete with each other and survive the "gunslingers" that come looking  
for the power house.  Soon it comes to a game of who has the most def. who  
can sling the most power, who is best at what skill?  It grows stagnant when  
the burglar can't say she is the best at burglaring because a 16 year old  
kid is better.  It grows stagnant when a technological character can't build  
power armor any better than that same 16 year old kid.  Is my point coming  
across at all here.  There should be no perfect hero.  If you want it all  
wrapped up in one, play solo adventures.  Or just write books.  If you want  
to play with other players, you have to accept you are not everything and  
give someone even an NPC the chance to be a little better than you. 
 
Take it easy and talk at you later. 
 
Sparx 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:25:32 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
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>i'm talking about the pc saying he's top of the heap. are you saying this  
force guy  
>would turn up and pound him for saying it? what else could you mean? 
 
Spoken like, well, I don't like what.  Without trying to be insulting here,  
and please don't take it as such.  It sounds like you are in the game for  
the battle of it all.  Fine, great, I love a good fight as well as anyone  
else but there is more to role playing than fighting.  Why would Force turn  
up to pound someone else who claims the title?  As I could explain if you  
were in my campaign and actually met Force, he wouldn't care if you claimed  
it.  Go ahead.  Let's switch it though and says he does care, but he is  
still Force the Hero, he would probably come to you and TALK it out with  
you.  Now, let's say he is Force the Villian, he would probably come to you  
and attack, if he is the most powerful TK NPC and you are 2nd best, this  
could still be an equal fight, but let's say you're 34th best.  Now instead  
of fighting, it is time to use your brains and role play the situation out,  
talk it over with him, ambush him, ask your team for help, etc.. etc... but  
if your pride is too much and you think you want to take him on knowing that  
he may be more powerful than you, all the best to you.    What else could I  
mean?  I still don't know what else you are looking for.  When I say you  
can't claim you are the most powerful X, I am not talking in campaign terms.  
 If Bob the Hero wants to strut around the campaign world claiming to be god  
all day, he could, probably without much trouble.  If Bob the player comes  
to me and claims, I've made the most powerful X, don't have any NPCs more  
powerful, don't let any other players be more powerful, that is where I draw  
the line.  That is what I am talking about.  Take it easy and talk at you later. 
 
Sparx 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 15:34:16 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
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At 12:18 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>>At 04:53 PM 9/6/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>> 
>><lots of good points> 
>> 
>> Another reason.  When you have a character that is  
>>>more powerful, say he could take a 20d6 attack and the rest of the team can  
>>>only take a 14d6 attack.  Say he also could deal as good as he could take  
>>>and same with the team.  All of a sudden, he is either wiping up all the  
>>>villians they normally are equal with OR the team is facing villians that  
>>>only he could handle.  Either way, made many of my players feel like sitting  
>>>down and watching him show his stuff. 
>> 
>>so what? is that valid- dice of damage? most bricks fit this category, this  
>is what i meant about the gm requiring all the pc's to have the same  
>abilities- same damage, same defences, ect.. .  
> 
>Is this valid damage?  That depends on the campaign I would suppose.  My  
>point is fine, you are saying this fits most brick classes which it does,  
>but when this brick can out fight (OCV/DCV)a martial artists, out think a  
>scientist, and out wit a burglar along with being more powerful than the  
>rest of the team, he or she has crossed a line somewhere.   
 
this is valid, and i was talking aobut differences between characters, not maximums.   
 
>You are telling  
>me that you don't like GMs requiring all players to have the same damage,  
>same defenses, etc...but now it comes down to the players making the rule  
>for themselves they all have to have the same damage, defenses, and skills  
>to compete with each other and survive the "gunslingers" that come looking  
>for the power house.   
 
why are they competing? and whoose sending thegunslingers? the gm's evil twin skippy? 
 
>Soon it comes to a game of who has the most def. who  
>can sling the most power, who is best at what skill?  It grows stagnant when  
>the burglar can't say she is the best at burglaring because a 16 year old  
>kid is better.  It grows stagnant when a technological character can't build  
>power armor any better than that same 16 year old kid.  Is my point coming  
>across at all here.  There should be no perfect hero.   
 
i have never been talking about perfect heros- i was talking about hero's who are good at a GIVEN TASK, NOT all tasks.  
 
>If you want it all  
>wrapped up in one, play solo adventures.  Or just write books.  If you want  
>to play with other players, you have to accept you are not everything and  
>give someone even an NPC the chance to be a little better than you. 
> 
 
better at what? at everything? so now you have npc's who are better at each of the players at everything the players can do? 
 
 
>Take it easy and talk at you later. 
> 
>Sparx 
> 
> 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:34:29 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer) 
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>At 05:05 PM 9/6/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>>>why wpuld it do this? why would a psycic compete with an energy projector?  
>>>what, in active point totals? 
>> 
>>If you can ask why, then you are blessed with some good players.  I don't  
>>know what type of games you play, I don't know what type of players you  
>>have.  I know my players and I base my experiences, references, and opinions  
>>from the games I'm involved in.  There is no "RIGHT" here.   My way could be  
>>completely wrong for your game, your style, or this whole list.  I do what  
>>works for me and my gaming group and it does work.  I've learned from other  
>>GMs, the player's opinions, and trial-and-error.  How would they compete you  
>>ask.  Not by competeing a mentalist vs an energy projector, by making  
>>another energy projector to top the last. 
>> 
>> 
> 
> cop out, cop out, cop out!  
 
I fail to see where I'm copping out.  I have given you my view points.  I  
have told you where they are coming from.  I have answered your questions  
almost every single one this entire thread.  You are telling me I'm copping  
out.  I'm not certain here where you get to say this, if you mind being a  
little more specific here, maybe I can answer something that you feel I've  
copped out on. 
 
>>No, in fact, I enjoy the fact that some players come to the table with a new  
>>character that has some experience prior to game play.  I enjoy seeing the  
>>powerful character even.  My statement was don't come to the table thinking  
>>you are the most powerful X because you probably aren't, come to the table  
>>to have fun and role play and be a team player. 
 
>what's wrong with thinkin that? IT'S A GAME! look, sorry, but this is  
sounding a lot like a compeditive gm who want's the pc's to feel inferior to  
his creations. There is NO reason that feeling like yer pc is tough is EVER  
going to cause problems in itself- if anything, you may be adopting a  
compeditive attitude just as much as they are.  
 
What's wrong with thinking that you are better than everyone else you are  
playing with you ask?  Let's see.  It causes tension between players,  
dislike, outright arguements, a breakdown of the game to mechanics, and ends  
a game and has ended some friendships over petty stuff.  I guess nothing is  
really wrong with it if you don't mind that type of game.  You are right, it  
is a game, so why can't you come to the table with the attitude in mind that  
you are playing a GAME.  Why would it be necessary to come to the table  
thinking you are the best and there is nothing you can't do.  I don't know,  
maybe it is me, I enjoy role playing because it is fun, challenging, and  
there is a risk to my character.  I wouldn't want to play if I was  
guaranteed a win everytime.  You're statement about players feeling their  
pcs are tough is true.  By itself, it causes not one problem.  It is when  
they begin to brag or make other PCs feel inferior to them that it causes  
problems.  That is what this thread on my side is about.  If you are reading  
differently or trying to interpret something that I said as indicating  
something different, I am sorry.  There it is, the meaning of my side.   
Competitive against my players?  No, I try to work with my players and make  
sure everyone is enjoying the game, it is when they aren't due to a problem  
player that I may seem competitive to that player because I'm attempting to  
prevent a lynch mob. 
 
Take it easy and talk at you later. 
 
Sparx 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:41:25 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer) 
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>At 05:08 PM 9/6/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>>>what's wrong with strongest? and how about this- sure you can control the  
>>elements, but not very well yet. .  let 'em have the horsepower, just limit  
>>their control..  . 
>> 
>>Nothing is wrong with the Strongest if you don't mind giving them that  
>>title. Then you have to make sure you stick to that title as a GM.   
>> 
>>Player:  I thought you said I was the strongest.  :( 
>>GM:  You are. 
>>Player:  Well, then how come when I was flipping through my book I found  
>>this enemy and he is stronger than me. 
>>GM:  I lowered his strength (make mental note to lower strength if ever  
>>confronted.)   
>>Player2:  I wanted to be strongest. 
>> 
> 
>yeah, THAT's what'd happen. . . .. any average player would take it as a  
challenge- 
 
Well, if your saying, yeah, sure that would never happen.  I'm telling you  
it did, it has, it would happen again if I mixed those same players together  
in a game. 
 
>i'm not talkiing about the GM saying to the player 'your pc is the best X',  
i'm talking about that being a general idea in the campaign- maybe he's only  
called the strongest 'cause he's got good pr? 
 
Well, big problem here in this conversation.  I'm talking about the player  
declaring his character the best X due to mechanics and asking the GM to  
make sure that mechanically speaking he is.  As I have said in an earlier  
post if he wishes to claim to be the best X the entire game he is more than  
welcome to.  There is a big difference in claiming and actually attempting  
to be, and that is where I'm thinking our conversation and split.  
 
> 
> 
>>It just gets out of hand in my opinion.  Why would you give a player a piece  
>>of candy like that for a fight to break out over?  I do like you said  
>>though, like giving them the horsepower just not the control over it.  YOU  
>>have the POTENTIAL to be the strongest. 
>> 
>>Sparx 
>> 
>> 
> 
>candy? what, you'd rather keep it all for yourself? 
 
Not really, just give it out equally.  If I have 3 bricks playing in a game,  
each at different str. levels, it would be fair of me to say, you all have  
the POTENTIAL (candy) to become the strongest in the campaign.  It would not  
be fair of me to say Brick 1 a PC, will always be stronger than Brick 2 PC  
and Brick 3 PC.  Let's see reactions of PC 1 by telling him no he can't be  
the strongest always might get him to leave or change his attitude.  But  
telling the other two they can never surpass PC 1 would probably lose 2  
players or give them a nice attitude against PC 1 and may not attract any  
others.  There is a difference.  I don't know if I'm being clear about this,  
but I'm trying.  Take it easy and talk at you later. 
 
Sparx 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:43:20 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer) 
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>At 07:30 PM 9/6/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>>I my old superhero game I did have a PC who was one of the strongest men 
>>in the world.  He didn't have any trouble with the knowledge that there 
>>were a few people who had more STR than he did, because his character 
>>certainly never intended to fill that niche.  In my current game the PCs 
>>are wel aware that there are several NPCs (two actually) that outclass 
>>them totally in terms of power.  This is a cool thing in thier opinion 
>>since the presence of either of these NPCs in a scenario forces them to 
>>think fast and try and come up with a creative solution to the problem 
>>(ie. no shootouts).  Works pretty well. 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
>i'm not talking about 'total power', i'm talking aobut 'being best at X'. . .  
 
The problem here, is that most, and I say this with my past players in mind,  
powergamers will make being best at X equal total power.  If you ask how by  
now, then you haven't been reading all of my posts.  Take it easy and talk  
at you later. 
 
Sparx 
 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:46:17 -0400 
Subject: Re: Telekinesis 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-2,4-20,23-54 
From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger) 
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 Aloha,  WillGGeiger@juno.com 
 
On 06 Sep 1997 23:03:23 -0400 Stainless Steel Rat 
<ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "WGG" == William G Geiger <willggeiger@juno.com> writes: 
> 
>WGG> Yes, base TK is Visible, vs. OCV/DCV.  The biggest problem I have  
>with 
>WGG> TK Based on ECV is that I'm not sure you can affect non-sentient 
>WGG> targets with it. 
> 
>TK is basically Strength that can be used at range.  All that BoECV  
>will do 
>is shift from using Dexterity to Ego for offensive CV.  TK with BoECV  
>still 
>has its normal Strength rating, and that can (only!) affect physical 
>things. 
 
I agree, although, see that Ming vase over there?  If you try to pick it 
up with TK BoECV,  does said vase have a 0 ECV, or a not applicable ECV, 
and can't be directly affected by such? 
 
>WGG> If you plan on making a character with an EGO higher than his  
>DEX, 
>WGG> consider buying extra DEX, for TK CV only (-1) [my own estimate, 
>WGG> considering you get no adds to SPD, DCV, other OCVs, initiative, 
>WGG> etc.]. 
> 
>Cheaper to buy a few combat skill levels with TK, if you absolutely  
>must 
>have the same OCV. 
 
Good call- cheaper and simpler, thus more elegant, I feel. 
> 
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> 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 15:52:08 +1000 
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From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
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At 12:25 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>>i'm talking about the pc saying he's top of the heap. are you saying this  
>force guy  
>>would turn up and pound him for saying it? what else could you mean? 
> 
>Spoken like, well, I don't like what.  Without trying to be insulting here,  
>and please don't take it as such.  It sounds like you are in the game for  
>the battle of it all.   
 
what the hell? these are your words!! i'm just trying to get a straigh answer out of you. I can't believe you don't see my point. Okay, the next time someone disagrees with me i'm going to decided that you can't see my point because you are married to a space alien. It's about as logical as this little intuitive leap you just made.  
 
 
>Fine, great, I love a good fight as well as anyone  
>else but there is more to role playing than fighting.  Why would Force turn  
>up to pound someone else who claims the title?  As I could explain if you  
>were in my campaign and actually met Force, he wouldn't care if you claimed  
>it.  Go ahead.   
 
then why all the mess about "a pc can't say they're the best because of npc X" rot? 
 
>Let's switch it though and says he does care, but he is  
>still Force the Hero, he would probably come to you and TALK it out with  
>you.  Now, let's say he is Force the Villian, he would probably come to you  
>and attack, if he is the most powerful TK NPC and you are 2nd best, this  
>could still be an equal fight, but let's say you're 34th best.  Now instead  
>of fighting, it is time to use your brains and role play the situation out,  
>talk it over with him, ambush him, ask your team for help, etc.. etc... but  
>if your pride is too much and you think you want to take him on knowing that  
>he may be more powerful than you, all the best to you.     
 
So how does he have any part in this 'you're not the most powerful X' bit? does he show people up at TK weightlifting contests? 
 
 
>What else could I  
>mean?  I still don't know what else you are looking for.  When I say you  
>can't claim you are the most powerful X, I am not talking in campaign terms.  
 
and why does that matter? why does it matter that the pc thinks that? so you prove him wrong- so what? you're the gm! any fool can see you can create any character you want.  
 
> If Bob the Hero wants to strut around the campaign world claiming to be god  
>all day, he could, probably without much trouble.  If Bob the player comes  
>to me and claims, I've made the most powerful X, don't have any NPCs more  
>powerful, don't let any other players be more powerful, that is where I draw  
>the line.  That is what I am talking about.  Take it easy and talk at you later. 
> 
>Sparx 
> 
> 
 
You're talking about an npc designed in answer of such a player? how about you just say: 
 
"i'm the gm, i make the npcs not you. The other players and i make thier pc's, not you. end of disgussion." 
 
you need an imaginary superhero to get this point across, despite it being the basis of the character creation process? 
 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 16:06:52 +1000 
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From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer) 
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At 12:34 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>>> 
>> 
>> cop out, cop out, cop out!  
> 
 
>I fail to see where I'm copping out.  I have given you my view points.  I  
>have told you where they are coming from.  I have answered your questions  
>almost every single one this entire thread.  You are telling me I'm copping  
>out.  I'm not certain here where you get to say this, if you mind being a  
>little more specific here, maybe I can answer something that you feel I've  
>copped out on. 
> 
 
three mays you copped out: 
 
you copped out of the rationale behind all disgussion 'there is no right' 
 
you copped out of admiting the generalities of the pc's 'my players are worse than yours' 
 
you copped out of a challenge 'no mr player, here's a large, powerful npc that says your wrong - despite the issue being abstract to the extreme and not really requiring a solid ruling' 
 
>>>No, in fact, I enjoy the fact that some players come to the table with a new  
>>>character that has some experience prior to game play.  I enjoy seeing the  
>>>powerful character even.  My statement was don't come to the table thinking  
>>>you are the most powerful X because you probably aren't, come to the table  
>>>to have fun and role play and be a team player. 
> 
>>what's wrong with thinkin that? IT'S A GAME! look, sorry, but this is  
>sounding a lot like a compeditive gm who want's the pc's to feel inferior to  
>his creations. There is NO reason that feeling like yer pc is tough is EVER  
>going to cause problems in itself- if anything, you may be adopting a  
>compeditive attitude just as much as they are.  
> 
>What's wrong with thinking that you are better than everyone else you are  
>playing with you ask?   
 
 
IN ONE _GIVEN_ AREA!!  
 
 
>Let's see.  It causes tension between players,  
>dislike, outright arguements, a breakdown of the game to mechanics, and ends  
>a game and has ended some friendships over petty stuff.   
 
Now, competition between players does that, being good at something is bound to happen-  
we are talking about superhumans here. who causes that(player competition)? does this have to do with the issue at hand? no. It has to do with bad players. Bad players have all sorts of issues, and the idea is to look at them, not limit game concepts so that all they can get their hands on are genre-limited straightjackets.  
 
>I guess nothing is  
>really wrong with it if you don't mind that type of game.  You are right, it  
>is a game, so why can't you come to the table with the attitude in mind that  
>you are playing a GAME.  Why would it be necessary to come to the table  
>thinking you are the best and there is nothing you can't do.   
 
 
not nothing! just SOMETHING! the worlds strongest man is no good at ballet!  
 
 
>I don't know,  
>maybe it is me, I enjoy role playing because it is fun, challenging, and  
>there is a risk to my character.  I wouldn't want to play if I was  
>guaranteed a win everytime.   
 
please stop with this rubbish about roleplaying. Anything involving power does not automatically preclude roleplaying- unless your trying to oversimplify the argument?  
 
 
>You're statement about players feeling their  
>pcs are tough is true.  By itself, it causes not one problem.  It is when  
>they begin to brag or make other PCs feel inferior to them that it causes  
>problems.   
 
bad player! not bad concept! players abuse all sorts of things- treat the 'disease', not the symptoms! 
 
>That is what this thread on my side is about.  If you are reading  
>differently or trying to interpret something that I said as indicating  
>something different, I am sorry.  There it is, the meaning of my side.   
>Competitive against my players?  No, I try to work with my players and make  
>sure everyone is enjoying the game, it is when they aren't due to a problem  
>player that I may seem competitive to that player because I'm attempting to  
>prevent a lynch mob. 
 
once again- csomeone good at TK can have weakness elsewhere- may veen have NCM. 
But you keep linking 'good at one thing' to 'good at everything'.  
 
> 
>Take it easy and talk at you later. 
> 
>Sparx 
> 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:10:33 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
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>JONES again? okay, that's it- i'm gonna go back to my goofy net-name.  
>And btw, a lot of gm's have the attitude that balanced pc's should have  
'adequate' (i.e. token) defences vs different attack forms, which acts  
basically as a leech on point totals with no rartionale. 
 
So you are saying that some GMs will require a player to buy x amount of  
Flash and Power Defense amongst other things to drain points off a  
character.  I think I'm on your side here, that would be annoying for the  
most part.  Unless it is in character concept or the GM is giving me the  
points, I see no reason to spend points the GM has given me on powers the GM  
wants me to have.  I do see reason to cut down on my powers though if the GM  
feels I'm too powerful in a certain area. 
 
>a gm i had once insisted a computer wiz should have eloectronics to repair  
things.  
>this was to stop the guy having a higher programming skill than the gm  
wanted him to, and he got labeled a powergamer when he objected.  
 
Well, not knowing the character concept behind this programmer, I will take  
it for granted that he was intended to be a computer programmer or at least  
have the skill.  Now if the player wanted the skill at a certain level and  
the GM didn't like it there that is fine, it should be adjusted to the GMs  
level of play.  However, there is no reason for buying the electronics.   
Continuing here, if the GM was just lowering his skill level not to keep the  
game in balance, but just to lower the characters skill then the GM was at  
fault.  If on the other hand, computer programming was merely a skill taken  
that roughly fit into the concept of the character, such as my 16 year old  
example, by the way this is a 25+ player playing the 16 year old, then it  
would be hard for the GM to understand why the character has better computer  
programming than most Computer Science Majors and it would be the player's  
job to lower it. 
 
>>>What it comes down to is that despite all the stuff about power-gamers, 
>>their >character are actually more realistic- what's more likely, someone 
>>getting one >power or many? not to metion that the 'many' powers all happen 
>>to be valid >combat -concepts, while a high-power system often wastes a lot 
>>of points if >designed properly.  
>> 
>>Oh, I beg to differ, unless you mean "interesting" in the sense of the 
>>Chinese curse.  Here's where that guy I mentioned before comes in, Mr. High 
>>Teek with the Penetra- and Ranged- vision.  He had TK at ungodly levels w/o 
>>range mods, N-ray vision, and telescopic, too.  The GM, who was new to this 
>>guy, if not to the rest of us, didn't smell a rat until the first fight. 
>>Then this guy tried to hide on a building far away and teek at the bad guys. 
>>Very "realistic?" no.   
> 
>actually this is extremly accurate- haven't you ever heard of artilery?  
this is how a psycic would fight, why would a normal human stand around in  
squishing distance of a brick? 
 
Yes and no, here we have a player who raped the rules to become a pretty  
powerful character in a heroic campaign then he refused to act like a hero.   
Of course, he shouldn't get into melee combat with a character, and maybe  
even hiding out isn't a bad idea, but there is strategic fighting and there  
is abusing the system. 
 
>>Show me a hero who does this who is not a) comic 
>>relief or b) the team's "uncooperative jerk" ala Talisman from the Justice 
>>Machine.  Our hero didn't want to hear the GM ask that he act more heroic. 
>>It was in character, he said, for his guy to behave so. 
 
>it was- if you want heroic behaviour, require that all pc's have it as a  
psyc lim.  
 
Gee, I don't know, when I run a heroic campaign, I pretty much state from  
the beginning, you are heroes.  You will act as heroes, that is the idea of  
this game.  Thus the whole, SUPER HERO GAME idea going on there.  If you  
don't want to play that, or if the group as a whole wishes to switch genres  
we can.  You shouldn't have to write it down on everyone's character sheet  
to be heroic simply so they remember.  Why are they putting on the tights  
and spandex?  If they want to play a lone wolf game or an anti-hero game, or  
a hack-and-slash, why are they joining a Super Hero Game?  These are things  
to consider when you sit down to GM or Play at a game, is this what I want  
to run/play.  You want it as a Psych Lim that is fine, but it is a 0 point  
one in my opinion. 
 
>i have looked into lots of campaigns and seen a bunch of 'realistic' (weak)  
characters.  
>But the point is, could they really fight crime? could they really mix it  
with heavily-armed criminals? Then you see a player wanting to play an  
ultra- powerful dude-  
>bulletproof, fast, brutal, this guy is WAY more likely to suvive the  
fights, and hence  
>a more valid superhuman. . . . 
 
Sure if you are playing in that sort of campaign it is.  A hero doesn't have  
to have ANY powers to be a hero.  More so, this is a GAME, so where does the  
valid superhuman idea come from?  Didn't see it in any of the rules?  All  
the comics I have and read don't have a bunch of Superman types running  
around all with the same powers.  Yes, a team of realistic characters could  
fight crime, yes they could mix it up with heavily-armed criminals, and yes  
they could die, that is what gives them bravery, power, the glory of  
victory, the want for revenge, that is what gives a character life.  A team  
of Superman could too, but then again, what is the point save the world  
today, save it tomorrow, we can all do it, only need one of us, how about I  
take Monday, you take Tuesday, etc... etc.. maybe I hit a sore spot with you  
when I mentioned the words Power Gamer.  According to you a "Valid  
Superhuman" is one that survives the fights, so you took a bunch of  
superhumans together through them in a room and determined this I suppose?   
Because I know some low level characters that could take out some nice high  
powered ones without much effort.  I guess bullet-proof doesn't always cut it. 
> 
>i'v had campaigns like that- it think you'll fing the whole 'has  
superpowers' idea didn't really suit it- all the others sound much more  
subtle to me, even though no doubt the eb were flying nontheless. I would  
suggest that the pc COULD have suited this settting- he could be wierd in  
his own way, imagine if the other pc's never got to meet him? But this is a  
matter of character, and setting, not the 'powergamer' archetype. 
 
Well, now we have 2 TK boys, so try to discern here.  And yes there is a  
very big difference between oh let's say Powergaming and a NPC Character  
that is more powerful than you that you may or may not meet.  This is color.  
 This is the universe, the world with or without the PCs.  This is where the  
characters come to play.  I guess you would be upset also to know that there  
is an agency with over hundreds of followers that you couldn't afford with  
points and each one of those followers equals about half your points, give  
or take and they all have weapons, neat vehicles, and a base that rivals  
your own.  This would probably upset you about as much as TK boy right?   
Well, let's see meet Viper, UNTIL, Genocide, etc...etc...  Oh but those are  
powergamed according to you because there is no difference between  
powergaming and NPCs that might be more powerful, forget that little check  
in Hero Maker under Hunted *MORE POWERFUL* no such thing as an NPC like  
that.  Oops, just a mistake when making the program.  I'm trying to see  
things your way, really I am, but I feel you are giving me knee jerk  
responses.  This has gone on too long and there is no win either way for me  
nor is there a loss.  So I'll probably answer a few more and maybe take a  
new twist on it if there is one, but I'm getting tired of repeating myself.   
Take it easy and talk at you later. 
 
Sparx 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 16:11:16 +1000 
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From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer) 
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At 12:43 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote:t talking about 'total power', i'm talking aobut 'being best at X'. . .  
> 
>The problem here, is that most, and I say this with my past players in mind,  
>powergamers will make being best at X equal total power.  If you ask how by  
>now, then you haven't been reading all of my posts.  Take it easy and talk  
>at you later. 
> 
>Sparx 
> 
> 
 
 
I have READ your posts, and there is a big fat GAP between being goood at TK and being a "god" like the teenage mutant psycic martial artist. You simply assume that anypowerful  
pc will be good at anything DESPITE the fact that in a points based game.. . with equal points. .equavilent spending ratio 'twixt powers, skill, ect. .  .and equivalent points-efficiancy. . this is about 2 steps from just plain IMPOSSABLE!  
 
 
 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:17:41 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
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>>You are telling  
>>me that you don't like GMs requiring all players to have the same damage,  
>>same defenses, etc...but now it comes down to the players making the rule  
>>for themselves they all have to have the same damage, defenses, and skills  
>>to compete with each other and survive the "gunslingers" that come looking  
>>for the power house.   
> 
>why are they competing? and whoose sending thegunslingers? the gm's evil  
twin skippy? 
 
Gunslingers was not an idea mentioned by me, it was brought up on the list  
and I thought I'd answer in that post.  It was suggested to send gunslingers  
after the powerful person and I was responding by saying what about the rest  
of the team? 
 
> 
>>Soon it comes to a game of who has the most def. who  
>>can sling the most power, who is best at what skill?  It grows stagnant when  
>>the burglar can't say she is the best at burglaring because a 16 year old  
>>kid is better.  It grows stagnant when a technological character can't build  
>>power armor any better than that same 16 year old kid.  Is my point coming  
>>across at all here.  There should be no perfect hero.   
> 
>i have never been talking about perfect heros- i was talking about hero's  
who are good at a GIVEN TASK, NOT all tasks.  
 
That's what I've been talking about, so why are you arguing with me?  Maybe  
I'm just not clear. 
 
> 
>>If you want it all  
>>wrapped up in one, play solo adventures.  Or just write books.  If you want  
>>to play with other players, you have to accept you are not everything and  
>>give someone even an NPC the chance to be a little better than you. 
>> 
> 
>better at what? at everything? so now you have npc's who are better at each  
of the players at everything the players can do? 
 
What have I been saying that you don't understand me.  I've been talking  
about a powergamer who had a character that could DO everything the rest of  
the team could do and then some, power wise and skill wise.  I've been  
saying how *I* disapprove of that.  I've been saying I have NPCs that are  
sometimes more powerful than characters but not always.  I've stated *I* try  
to mediate among my players and make everyone happy by keeping a balanced  
game.  Where have I ever said that any of my NPCs were gods?  Or even  
overall better than all of my players?  I recall saying my NPCs never  
outshine my PCs if anything they come to the PCs for help even if they are  
more powerful in SOME areas.  Sound familiar?  Take it easy and talk at you  
later. 
 
Sparx 
 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 16:21:00 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer) 
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At 12:41 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote: 
 
>> 
>>yeah, THAT's what'd happen. . . .. any average player would take it as a  
>challenge- 
> 
>Well, if your saying, yeah, sure that would never happen.  I'm telling you  
>it did, it has, it would happen again if I mixed those same players together  
>in a game. 
> 
 
so, because you have bunch of bad players any such character is off-limits in general?   
 
 
>>i'm not talkiing about the GM saying to the player 'your pc is the best X',  
>i'm talking about that being a general idea in the campaign- maybe he's only  
>called the strongest 'cause he's got good pr? 
> 
>Well, big problem here in this conversation.  I'm talking about the player  
>declaring his character the best X due to mechanics and asking the GM to  
>make sure that mechanically speaking he is.  As I have said in an earlier  
>post if he wishes to claim to be the best X the entire game he is more than  
>welcome to.  There is a big difference in claiming and actually attempting  
>to be, and that is where I'm thinking our conversation and split.  
> 
 
i think you miss the point- you can't use an npc (campaign concept) to disprove a statement about mechanics (rules concept) any more than the gm (rules concept)  
can talk to a pc (campaign concept). 
 
Hence I think it's pretty clear why i made the assumption that i did. 
 
 
>>>It just gets out of hand in my opinion.  Why would you give a player a piece  
>>>of candy like that for a fight to break out over?  I do like you said  
>>>though, like giving them the horsepower just not the control over it.  YOU  
>>>have the POTENTIAL to be the strongest. 
>>> 
>>>Sparx 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>candy? what, you'd rather keep it all for yourself? 
> 
>Not really, just give it out equally.  If I have 3 bricks playing in a game,  
>each at different str. levels, it would be fair of me to say, you all have  
>the POTENTIAL (candy) to become the strongest in the campaign.   
 
but what if they talk about 'strongest in party'? 
 
>It would not  
>be fair of me to say Brick 1 a PC, will always be stronger than Brick 2 PC  
>and Brick 3 PC.   
 
but he won't- they can spend how they want, competition is not going to be averted by this 'it doesn't matter ' rot- he's still strongest in the party, if the want to compete, they will.  
 
>Let's see reactions of PC 1 by telling him no he can't be  
>the strongest always might get him to leave or change his attitude. But  
>telling the other two they can never surpass  
 
why can't they? no xp in your game? 
 
>PC 1 would probably lose 2  
>players or give them a nice attitude against PC 1 and may not attract any  
>others.  There is a difference.  I don't know if I'm being clear about this,  
>but I'm trying.  Take it easy and talk at you later. 
> 
>Sparx 
> 
> 
 
 
your basing this on the assumptions that: 
 
A) any competittion is over 'best X character ever' -  does that include giant alien monsters, in reguards to strenth, btw? 
 
B) the players are compeditive to the point of neuroisis 
 
C) there are multiple players who all settled on very , VERY simmilar power concepts. .  
 
 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:27:28 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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>At 12:25 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>>>i'm talking about the pc saying he's top of the heap. are you saying this  
>>force guy  
>>>would turn up and pound him for saying it? what else could you mean? 
>> 
>>Spoken like, well, I don't like what.  Without trying to be insulting here,  
>>and please don't take it as such.  It sounds like you are in the game for  
>>the battle of it all.   
> 
>what the hell? these are your words!! i'm just trying to get a straigh  
answer out of you. I can't believe you don't see my point. Okay, the next  
time someone disagrees with me i'm going to decided that you can't see my  
point because you are married to a space alien. It's about as logical as  
this little intuitive leap you just made.  
 
Maybe I'm tired, maybe you misunderstood me.  I think I'm being cleared.   
Muddy mind and all can make things confusing.  I just wish when you say  
things like this, you tell me WHAT it is you don't understand.  I don't see  
your point here, sorry. 
 
> 
>>Fine, great, I love a good fight as well as anyone  
>>else but there is more to role playing than fighting.  Why would Force turn  
>>up to pound someone else who claims the title?  As I could explain if you  
>>were in my campaign and actually met Force, he wouldn't care if you claimed  
>>it.  Go ahead.   
> 
>then why all the mess about "a pc can't say they're the best because of npc  
X" rot? 
 
They can say they are the best if they so desire. It may or may not be true.  
 I just want the PCs to understand they are part of a world, a universe that  
has been made by me, taking some work for their entertainment.  There is  
more to the game then the single player, there is the team, the GM, and the  
campaign world. 
 
>>Let's switch it though and says he does care, but he is  
>>still Force the Hero, he would probably come to you and TALK it out with  
>>you.  Now, let's say he is Force the Villian, he would probably come to you  
>>and attack, if he is the most powerful TK NPC and you are 2nd best, this  
>>could still be an equal fight, but let's say you're 34th best.  Now instead  
>>of fighting, it is time to use your brains and role play the situation out,  
>>talk it over with him, ambush him, ask your team for help, etc.. etc... but  
>>if your pride is too much and you think you want to take him on knowing that  
>>he may be more powerful than you, all the best to you.     
> 
>So how does he have any part in this 'you're not the most powerful X' bit?  
does he show people up at TK weightlifting contests? 
 
Ok, let's forget about Force because I think he is muddling our  
conversation.  He would not show people up.  He is there as background of  
the world.  Have you been reading the pointers and other stuff in GM Corner,  
I will confess, I've only glanced at it.  But I seem to recall, what other  
heroes exist, who are they, what do they do, stuff like that.  Force exist,  
he is a hero, etc...etc...he is there as part of your Universe instead of  
the Universe unfolding around you as you do things.  Player:  I need a lab.   
GM:  Sorry, I never thought up any labs because you never wanted one get  
back to me next week when I add that to your Universe. 
 
> 
> 
>>What else could I  
>>mean?  I still don't know what else you are looking for.  When I say you  
>>can't claim you are the most powerful X, I am not talking in campaign terms.  
> 
>and why does that matter? why does it matter that the pc thinks that? so  
you prove him wrong- so what? you're the gm! any fool can see you can create  
any character you want.  
 
It matters to the other players.  I don't know.  Do you know what other  
people are, those that care about competition about looking inferior to  
others?  They play RPGs too.  They don't want to waste 5 hours listening to  
someone else prove his character is better in every way shape and form than  
there character.  Let me say EVERY way shape and form. 
 
>You're talking about an npc designed in answer of such a player? how about  
you just say: 
> 
>"i'm the gm, i make the npcs not you. The other players and i make thier  
pc's, not you. end of disgussion." 
 
Well, as this thread has proven, you can't say End of Discussion and  
actually have it happen.  This is even more true, when someone is trying to  
defend the right to their character design. 
 
> 
>you need an imaginary superhero to get this point across, despite it being  
the basis of the character creation process? 
 
No, I need an imaginary superhero and many others to make my campaign world  
more real.  That is what they are truly there for.   
 
Sparx 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:39:05 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer) 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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>three mays you copped out: 
> 
>you copped out of the rationale behind all disgussion 'there is no right' 
 
This is not a cop out.  I am telling you that my way is right for my  
players, my campaigns, my rulings.  I am telling you it may be completely  
wrong for you.  Fine, so be it.  So I'm suppose to say there is a right?  I  
just haven't seen your way yet? 
 
> 
>you copped out of admiting the generalities of the pc's 'my players are  
worse than yours' 
 
My players are no worse or no better than any other players.  I know what  
works for them and what doesn't and I use it. 
 
> 
>you copped out of a challenge 'no mr player, here's a large, powerful npc  
that says your wrong - despite the issue being abstract to the extreme and  
not really requiring a solid ruling' 
 
Huh? 
 
> 
>>>>No, in fact, I enjoy the fact that some players come to the table with a  
new  
>>>>character that has some experience prior to game play.  I enjoy seeing the  
>>>>powerful character even.  My statement was don't come to the table thinking  
>>>>you are the most powerful X because you probably aren't, come to the table  
>>>>to have fun and role play and be a team player. 
>> 
>>>what's wrong with thinkin that? IT'S A GAME! look, sorry, but this is  
>>sounding a lot like a compeditive gm who want's the pc's to feel inferior to  
>>his creations. There is NO reason that feeling like yer pc is tough is EVER  
>>going to cause problems in itself- if anything, you may be adopting a  
>>compeditive attitude just as much as they are.  
>> 
>>What's wrong with thinking that you are better than everyone else you are  
>>playing with you ask?   
> 
> 
>IN ONE _GIVEN_ AREA!!  
 
NOTHING IN ONE GIVEN AREA!! WE AGREE HERE!! STOP IT!! 
 
> 
>>Let's see.  It causes tension between players,  
>>dislike, outright arguements, a breakdown of the game to mechanics, and ends  
>>a game and has ended some friendships over petty stuff.   
> 
>Now, competition between players does that, being good at something is  
bound to happen-  
>we are talking about superhumans here. who causes that(player competition)?  
does this have to do with the issue at hand? no. It has to do with bad  
players. Bad players have all sorts of issues, and the idea is to look at  
them, not limit game concepts so that all they can get their hands on are  
genre-limited straightjackets.  
 
So now, you are calling my players bad?  Hey!  Only I can do that.  It has  
everything to do with the issue at hand since all I've been talking about  
since I've started my conversation is my players and my experiences with them.   
 
> 
>>I guess nothing is  
>>really wrong with it if you don't mind that type of game.  You are right, it  
>>is a game, so why can't you come to the table with the attitude in mind that  
>>you are playing a GAME.  Why would it be necessary to come to the table  
>>thinking you are the best and there is nothing you can't do.   
> 
> 
>not nothing! just SOMETHING! the worlds strongest man is no good at ballet!  
 
Ah, but you don't understand, if it were something important I'd have a 3 or  
4 great brick ballet dancers. 
 
 
>please stop with this rubbish about roleplaying. Anything involving power  
does not automatically preclude roleplaying- unless your trying to  
oversimplify the argument?  
 
Yeah, let's take roleplaying out of this discussion about roleplaying.  It  
will make things so much easier.  Huh? 
 
>>You're statement about players feeling their  
>>pcs are tough is true.  By itself, it causes not one problem.  It is when  
>>they begin to brag or make other PCs feel inferior to them that it causes  
>>problems.   
> 
>bad player! not bad concept! players abuse all sorts of things- treat the  
'disease', not the symptoms! 
 
I am treating it, and I'm treating it fairly good over on my side. 
 
>>That is what this thread on my side is about.  If you are reading  
>>differently or trying to interpret something that I said as indicating  
>>something different, I am sorry.  There it is, the meaning of my side.   
>>Competitive against my players?  No, I try to work with my players and make  
>>sure everyone is enjoying the game, it is when they aren't due to a problem  
>>player that I may seem competitive to that player because I'm attempting to  
>>prevent a lynch mob. 
> 
>once again- csomeone good at TK can have weakness elsewhere- may veen have NCM. 
>But you keep linking 'good at one thing' to 'good at everything'.  
 
No, I don't.  I'm telling you my Power Gamers, link being good at being the  
best at everything.  That is what they do.  I'm not linking.  It is the  
truth.  What do you want from me?  I say fine be good at one thing be good  
at a few things, in fact having linking skills that make sense.  Don't be  
good at everything.  That is what they try. 
 
Sparx 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 16:39:44 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
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At 01:10 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>>>Very "realistic?" no.   
>> 
>>actually this is extremly accurate- haven't you ever heard of artilery?  
>this is how a psycic would fight, why would a normal human stand around in  
>squishing distance of a brick? 
> 
>Yes and no, here we have a player who raped the rules to become a pretty  
>powerful character in a heroic campaign then he refused to act like a hero.   
>Of course, he shouldn't get into melee combat with a character, and maybe  
>even hiding out isn't a bad idea, but there is strategic fighting and there  
>is abusing the system. 
> 
 
they happen to be the same thing- strategy is trying to win- and the pc isn't useing discrepancies in the rules he's doing something that makes strategic sence. 
 
>>>Show me a hero who does this who is not a) comic 
>>>relief or b) the team's "uncooperative jerk" ala Talisman from the Justice 
>>>Machine.  Our hero didn't want to hear the GM ask that he act more heroic. 
>>>It was in character, he said, for his guy to behave so. 
> 
>>it was- if you want heroic behaviour, require that all pc's have it as a  
>psyc lim.  
> 
>Gee, I don't know, when I run a heroic campaign, I pretty much state from  
>the beginning, you are heroes.  You will act as heroes, that is the idea of  
>this game.  Thus the whole, SUPER HERO GAME idea going on there.  If you  
>don't want to play that, or if the group as a whole wishes to switch genres  
>we can.   
 
pin_it_down! in my superherioc games there is noting 'heroic' about riskiong your ass needlessly, how is that heroic? hence, definne your terms, don't act like it 'obvious' what you mean.  
 
>You shouldn't have to write it down on everyone's character sheet  
>to be heroic simply so they remember.  Why are they putting on the tights  
>and spandex?   
 
the same reason wolverine did? hows about the punisher?  
 
 
>If they want to play a lone wolf game or an anti-hero game, or  
>a hack-and-slash, why are they joining a Super Hero Game?  These are things  
>to consider when you sit down to GM or Play at a game, is this what I want  
>to run/play.  You want it as a Psych Lim that is fine, but it is a 0 point  
>one in my opinion. 
> 
 
fine- 0 point- just don't pretend any of these things are obvious- sounds pretty chliche and hckneyed to me, btw. . . 
 
>>i have looked into lots of campaigns and seen a bunch of 'realistic' (weak)  
>characters.  
>>But the point is, could they really fight crime? could they really mix it  
>with heavily-armed criminals? Then you see a player wanting to play an  
>ultra- powerful dude-  
>>bulletproof, fast, brutal, this guy is WAY more likely to suvive the  
>fights, and hence  
>>a more valid superhuman. . . . 
> 
>Sure if you are playing in that sort of campaign it is.  A hero doesn't have  
>to have ANY powers to be a hero.  More so, this is a GAME, so where does the  
>valid superhuman idea come from?   
 
those are my terms for 'realistic' 
 
 
>Didn't see it in any of the rules?  All  
>the comics I have and read don't have a bunch of Superman types running  
>around all with the same powers.  Yes, a team of realistic characters could  
>fight crime, yes they could mix it up with heavily-armed criminals, and yes  
>they could die, that is what gives them bravery, power, the glory of  
>victory, the want for revenge, that is what gives a character life.  A team  
>of Superman could too, but then again, what is the point save the world  
>today, save it tomorrow, we can all do it, only need one of us, how about I  
>take Monday, you take Tuesday, etc... etc.. maybe I hit a sore spot with you  
>when I mentioned the words Power Gamer.  According to you a "Valid  
>Superhuman" is one that survives the fights, so you took a bunch of  
>superhumans together through them in a room and determined this I suppose?   
>Because I know some low level characters that could take out some nice high  
>powered ones without much effort.  I guess bullet-proof doesn't always cut it. 
>> 
 
so combat skilled instead- but my point is still valid- the more combat power,  
the better they are at kicking ass.  
 
 
 
>>i'v had campaigns like that- it think you'll fing the whole 'has  
>superpowers' idea didn't really suit it- all the others sound much more  
>subtle to me, even though no doubt the eb were flying nontheless. I would  
>suggest that the pc COULD have suited this settting- he could be wierd in  
>his own way, imagine if the other pc's never got to meet him? But this is a  
>matter of character, and setting, not the 'powergamer' archetype. 
> 
>Well, now we have 2 TK boys, so try to discern here.  And yes there is a  
>very big difference between oh let's say Powergaming and a NPC Character  
>that is more powerful than you that you may or may not meet.   
 
i'm talking about a pc. 
 
 
>This is color.  
> This is the universe, the world with or without the PCs.  This is where the  
>characters come to play.  I guess you would be upset also to know that there  
>is an agency with over hundreds of followers that you couldn't afford with  
>points and each one of those followers equals about half your points, give  
>or take and they all have weapons, neat vehicles, and a base that rivals  
>your own.  This would probably upset you about as much as TK boy right?   
>Well, let's see meet Viper, UNTIL, Genocide, etc...etc...  Oh but those are  
>powergamed according to you because there is no difference between  
>powergaming and NPCs that might be more powerful, forget that little check  
>in Hero Maker under Hunted *MORE POWERFUL* no such thing as an NPC like  
>that.   
 
what the hell are you on about? since when did i say anything like that? 
look, either stick to >direct quotes or quit altogether, one thing i cannot stand is barefaced misquotation like this. You designed a character to make the pc's look inferior. Your rationalisations thus far have proved that it is a pet npc, and you attempt at an argument is based on misquotation.  
 
 
>Oops, just a mistake when making the program.  I'm trying to see  
>things your way, really I am, but I feel you are giving me knee jerk  
>responses.  This has gone on too long and there is no win either way for me  
>nor is there a loss.  So I'll probably answer a few more and maybe take a  
>new twist on it if there is one, but I'm getting tired of repeating myself.   
>Take it easy and talk at you later. 
> 
>Sparx 
> 
> 
 
this is ridiculous- if you're tired of repeating yourself, say something that makes sence! 
 
go ahead and stop, but don't pretend it's because i'm not listening- i've been listenig all bloody day and you're WRONG! you npc cannot be supported by that rationale.  
If you like the npc, FINE. 
but don't pretend it goes beyond that.  
 
This is the last i'll be saying on the matter, unless one of your 'twists' turns out like i expect. 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:43:12 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer) 
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>I have READ your posts, and there is a big fat GAP between being goood at  
TK and being a "god" like the teenage mutant psycic martial artist. 
 
Ok first, he wasn't a TK and he wasn't a mutant.  He was a PC power gamer.   
Missed something did we?  He started as a martial artist and as he found  
players had areas he did not have he would find a way to get the area and be  
better at them with some rationale. 
 
 You simply assume that anypowerful  
>pc will be good at anything DESPITE the fact that in a points based game..  
. with equal points. .equavilent spending ratio 'twixt powers, skill, ect. .  
 .and equivalent points-efficiancy. . this is about 2 steps from just plain  
IMPOSSABLE!  
 
And you are assuming all of my players spend points in the same manner.  I  
have already stated that the power gamers I have dealt with have managed to  
pull nearly 100 more active points from breaks and stuff over my average  
players.  Yes, it seems impossible, but it isn't with limitations, and point  
breaks that most average players wouldn't bother with.  You see, he isn't  
good at everything, just everything the other players try to specialize in  
and he makes them look inferior to his character.  I refer to him as he, but  
as I have stated before there is more than one. 
 
Sparx 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:48:24 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer) 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 202 
 
>At 12:41 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote: 
> 
>>> 
>>>yeah, THAT's what'd happen. . . .. any average player would take it as a  
>>challenge- 
>> 
>>Well, if your saying, yeah, sure that would never happen.  I'm telling you  
>>it did, it has, it would happen again if I mixed those same players together  
>>in a game. 
>> 
> 
>so, because you have bunch of bad players any such character is off-limits  
in general?   
 
For those players, yes.  I have recently started with a new group and we'll  
have to see where it leads. 
 
>>Not really, just give it out equally.  If I have 3 bricks playing in a game,  
>>each at different str. levels, it would be fair of me to say, you all have  
>>the POTENTIAL (candy) to become the strongest in the campaign.   
> 
>but what if they talk about 'strongest in party'? 
 
If the other players were fine with it, I would be too.  That is a big IF. 
 
> 
>>It would not  
>>be fair of me to say Brick 1 a PC, will always be stronger than Brick 2 PC  
>>and Brick 3 PC.   
> 
>but he won't- they can spend how they want, competition is not going to be  
averted by this 'it doesn't matter ' rot- he's still strongest in the party,  
if the want to compete, they will.  
> 
>>Let's see reactions of PC 1 by telling him no he can't be  
>>the strongest always might get him to leave or change his attitude. But  
>>telling the other two they can never surpass  
> 
>why can't they? no xp in your game? 
 
You missed that part about PC 1 coming to me and saying as a GM I want you  
to guarantee I will always be stronger than PC 2 or PC 3.  It has happened. 
 
>your basing this on the assumptions that: 
> 
>A) any competittion is over 'best X character ever' -  does that include  
giant alien monsters, in reguards to strenth, btw? 
 
It is in my group.  I'm not making a generalization.  Is that what you think  
I'm doing?  Do you think I'm saying that what I say holds true for everyone  
world wide?  NO, this holds true for my gaming group.  MY GAMING GROUP!! 
 
>B) the players are compeditive to the point of neuroisis 
 
Remember that ink blot test :) 
 
> 
>C) there are multiple players who all settled on very , VERY simmilar power  
concepts. .  
 
YES!!  I think we are getting it.  Hey look if you have a real suggestion on  
how to handle these players other than ditch them, I'll take what I can get. 
 
Take it easy and talk at you later. 
 
Sparx 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 16:48:30 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
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At 01:17 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>> 
>>>Soon it comes to a game of who has the most def. who  
>>>can sling the most power, who is best at what skill?  It grows stagnant when  
>>>the burglar can't say she is the best at burglaring because a 16 year old  
>>>kid is better.  It grows stagnant when a technological character can't build  
>>>power armor any better than that same 16 year old kid.  Is my point coming  
>>>across at all here.  There should be no perfect hero.   
>> 
>>i have never been talking about perfect heros- i was talking about hero's  
>who are good at a GIVEN TASK, NOT all tasks.  
> 
>That's what I've been talking about, so why are you arguing with me?  Maybe  
>I'm just not clear. 
> 
 
because i don't agree with you!!!!!!!!!!!!  
you used the example of telekinesis which is at best a group of powers, maybe in an ec.  
 
>> 
>>better at what? at everything? so now you have npc's who are better at each  
>of the players at everything the players can do? 
> 
>What have I been saying that you don't understand me.  I've been talking  
>about a powergamer who had a character that could DO everything the rest of  
>the team could do and then some, power wise and skill wise.  I've been  
>saying how *I* disapprove of that. I've been saying I have NPCs that are  
>sometimes more powerful than characters but not always.   
 
and your rationale for one of these npc's was that a player said thei pc said they were the best at something.. .  
 
>I've stated *I* try  
>to mediate among my players and make everyone happy by keeping a balanced  
>game.  Where have I ever said that any of my NPCs were gods?  Or even  
>overall better than all of my players?   
 
well how else can you realte this idea of 'good at one thing' to 'power gamer'? 
 
 
>I recall saying my NPCs never  
>outshine my PCs  
 
apart from when you specifically design them to do so, as you SAID you did with the force-tk-guy? 
 
>if anything they come to the PCs for help even if they are  
>more powerful in SOME areas.   
 
yes- and those are the areas that count. You already stated your assupption that  
'powerful at one thing' leads to a power gamer 
 
 
>Sound familiar?  Take it easy and talk at you  
>later. 
> 
 
yup, AT me, u sure as hell ain't listening to either of us. . .  
 
 
 
>Sparx 
> 
> 
> 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:59:50 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
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>At 01:10 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>>>>Very "realistic?" no.   
>>> 
>>>actually this is extremly accurate- haven't you ever heard of artilery?  
>>this is how a psycic would fight, why would a normal human stand around in  
>>squishing distance of a brick? 
>> 
>>Yes and no, here we have a player who raped the rules to become a pretty  
>>powerful character in a heroic campaign then he refused to act like a hero.   
>>Of course, he shouldn't get into melee combat with a character, and maybe  
>>even hiding out isn't a bad idea, but there is strategic fighting and there  
>>is abusing the system. 
>> 
> 
>they happen to be the same thing- strategy is trying to win- and the pc  
isn't useing discrepancies in the rules he's doing something that makes  
strategic sence. 
> 
>>>>Show me a hero who does this who is not a) comic 
>>>>relief or b) the team's "uncooperative jerk" ala Talisman from the Justice 
>>>>Machine.  Our hero didn't want to hear the GM ask that he act more heroic. 
>>>>It was in character, he said, for his guy to behave so. 
>> 
>>>it was- if you want heroic behaviour, require that all pc's have it as a  
>>psyc lim.  
>> 
>>Gee, I don't know, when I run a heroic campaign, I pretty much state from  
>>the beginning, you are heroes.  You will act as heroes, that is the idea of  
>>this game.  Thus the whole, SUPER HERO GAME idea going on there.  If you  
>>don't want to play that, or if the group as a whole wishes to switch genres  
>>we can.   
> 
>pin_it_down! in my superherioc games there is noting 'heroic' about  
riskiong your ass needlessly, how is that heroic? hence, definne your terms,  
don't act like it 'obvious' what you mean.  
 
Oh, I don't know, when a player asks me, what is heroic?  I just throw down  
about a half dozen comics and say, this is the type of game you are joining.  
 Want to read them and play?  They usually include such books as X-men,  
Avengers, and the JLA. 
 
>>You shouldn't have to write it down on everyone's character sheet  
>>to be heroic simply so they remember.  Why are they putting on the tights  
>>and spandex?   
> 
>the same reason wolverine did? hows about the punisher?  
 
Let's see, if I remember right, Wolverine didn't want to, and Punisher was a  
highered assassin.  Why did they become heroes.  Don't know, don't like them  
that much. 
 
>>>i have looked into lots of campaigns and seen a bunch of 'realistic' (weak)  
>>characters.  
>>>But the point is, could they really fight crime? could they really mix it  
>>with heavily-armed criminals? Then you see a player wanting to play an  
>>ultra- powerful dude-  
>>>bulletproof, fast, brutal, this guy is WAY more likely to suvive the  
>>fights, and hence  
>>>a more valid superhuman. . . . 
>> 
>>Sure if you are playing in that sort of campaign it is.  A hero doesn't have  
>>to have ANY powers to be a hero.  More so, this is a GAME, so where does the  
>>valid superhuman idea come from?   
> 
>those are my terms for 'realistic' 
 
Fine, if battle monsters are more realistic heroes for you, your opinion. 
 
>>Didn't see it in any of the rules?  All  
>>the comics I have and read don't have a bunch of Superman types running  
>>around all with the same powers.  Yes, a team of realistic characters could  
>>fight crime, yes they could mix it up with heavily-armed criminals, and yes  
>>they could die, that is what gives them bravery, power, the glory of  
>>victory, the want for revenge, that is what gives a character life.  A team  
>>of Superman could too, but then again, what is the point save the world  
>>today, save it tomorrow, we can all do it, only need one of us, how about I  
>>take Monday, you take Tuesday, etc... etc.. maybe I hit a sore spot with you  
>>when I mentioned the words Power Gamer.  According to you a "Valid  
>>Superhuman" is one that survives the fights, so you took a bunch of  
>>superhumans together through them in a room and determined this I suppose?   
>>Because I know some low level characters that could take out some nice high  
>>powered ones without much effort.  I guess bullet-proof doesn't always cut it. 
>>> 
> 
>so combat skilled instead- but my point is still valid- the more combat power,  
>the better they are at kicking ass.  
 
Well, yeah.  Right answer?  I don't know what am I suppose to say to that.   
Does that make them the perfect or valid hero?  In your mind, yes.  In my  
mind, the fireman who saves a dog from a burning building is every bit the hero. 
 
>what the hell are you on about? since when did i say anything like that? 
>look, either stick to >direct quotes or quit altogether, one thing i cannot  
stand is barefaced misquotation like this. 
 
">>suggest that the pc COULD have suited this settting- he could be wierd in  
>>his own way, imagine if the other pc's never got to meet him? But this is a  
>>matter of character, and setting, not the 'powergamer' archetype." 
 
Ok, this seems like direct quoting.  Looks like you are referring to me.   
Maybe I'm wrong.  That is what I was referring about. 
 
 You designed a character to make the pc's look inferior. 
 
I designed numerous NPCs to be part of the world. NONE have EVER made the  
players look inferior, nor the PCs. 
 
 Your rationalisations thus far have proved that it is a pet npc, and you  
attempt at an argument is based on misquotation.  
 
I attempt an arguement based on misunderstandings from you and me which now  
that we are coming to understand interesting become misquoting. 
 
 
>this is ridiculous- if you're tired of repeating yourself, say something  
that makes sence! 
> 
>go ahead and stop, but don't pretend it's because i'm not listening- i've  
been listenig all bloody day and you're WRONG! you npc cannot be supported  
by that rationale.  
>If you like the npc, FINE. 
>but don't pretend it goes beyond that.  
 
It does.  WRONG would be defined here as not in accordance with your  
thoughts I gather.  Fine, I'm wrong.  
 
 
>This is the last i'll be saying on the matter, unless one of your 'twists'  
turns out like i expect. 
 
Well, this has gone a little longer simply because you are online and it has  
turned more into a conversation.  I wonder how you expect a twist to turn  
out though? 
 
Take it easy and talk at you later. 
 
Sparx 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 00:01:41 -0700 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Vari-multi pools 
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Carl Gilchrist wrote: 
>  
> One of the things I have done for variable power pools, and that I 
> require for almost every VPP in my campaign, is the limitation: 
>  
> based on active points -1/4 
>  
> what this means is that it does not matter what limitations get placed 
> on the power for how many points the power takes up in the pool, ie 
>  
> a 10d6 energy blast will always take up 50 points out of the vpp, there 
> is no other reason to take limitations on the powers in the vpp, 
> thereby making the vpp a widescale multipower 
 
   I've done this one myself, though I simply called it (-1/4)"VPP has 
'ultra' slots" referring to the MP slot requiring dedication of all 
Active points of a power, regardless of usage specs.. 
   Though there are, in fact, still needs for limitations on the powers 
in that kind of VPP - IF your players are true to their concepts.... I 
took this limitation on my Spidey-clone's Pool for "Webbing 
applications", since regardless of the limitations and specifics of any 
of his effects, he only had so much webbing (represented by active 
points) available per phase.  Thus even though he used a 50-active point 
power, to be accurate, he still sometimes had up to (-2) or more of 
limitations, simply to accurately represent the specifics of the 
particular application. 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 17:03:34 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer) 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
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At 01:39 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>>three mays you copped out: 
>> 
>>you copped out of the rationale behind all disgussion 'there is no right' 
> 
>This is not a cop out.  I am telling you that my way is right for my  
>players, my campaigns, my rulings.  I am telling you it may be completely  
>wrong for you.  Fine, so be it.  So I'm suppose to say there is a right?  I  
>just haven't seen your way yet? 
> 
>> 
>>you copped out of admiting the generalities of the pc's 'my players are  
>worse than yours' 
> 
>My players are no worse or no better than any other players.  I know what  
>works for them and what doesn't and I use it. 
> 
>> 
>>you copped out of a challenge 'no mr player, here's a large, powerful npc  
>that says your wrong - despite the issue being abstract to the extreme and  
>not really requiring a solid ruling' 
> 
>Huh? 
> 
>> 
>>>>>No, in fact, I enjoy the fact that some players come to the table with a  
>new  
>>>>>character that has some experience prior to game play.  I enjoy seeing the  
>>>>>powerful character even.  My statement was don't come to the table thinking  
>>>>>you are the most powerful X because you probably aren't, come to the table  
>>>>>to have fun and role play and be a team player. 
>>> 
>>>>what's wrong with thinkin that? IT'S A GAME! look, sorry, but this is  
>>>sounding a lot like a compeditive gm who want's the pc's to feel inferior to  
>>>his creations. There is NO reason that feeling like yer pc is tough is EVER  
>>>going to cause problems in itself- if anything, you may be adopting a  
>>>compeditive attitude just as much as they are.  
>>> 
>>>What's wrong with thinking that you are better than everyone else you are  
>>>playing with you ask?   
>> 
>> 
>>IN ONE _GIVEN_ AREA!!  
> 
>NOTHING IN ONE GIVEN AREA!! WE AGREE HERE!! STOP IT!! 
> 
 
 
so telekinesis isn't one area? 
 
 
>> 
>>>Let's see.  It causes tension between players,  
>>>dislike, outright arguements, a breakdown of the game to mechanics, and ends  
>>>a game and has ended some friendships over petty stuff.   
>> 
>>Now, competition between players does that, being good at something is  
>bound to happen-  
>>we are talking about superhumans here. who causes that(player competition)?  
>does this have to do with the issue at hand? no. It has to do with bad  
>players. Bad players have all sorts of issues, and the idea is to look at  
>them, not limit game concepts so that all they can get their hands on are  
>genre-limited straightjackets.  
> 
>So now, you are calling my players bad?  Hey!  Only I can do that.  It has  
>everything to do with the issue at hand since all I've been talking about  
>since I've started my conversation is my players and my experiences with them.   
> 
 
your talking about things players do wrong, but acting like it's a problem with charactr creation. it isn't. .  
 
>> 
>>>I guess nothing is  
>>>really wrong with it if you don't mind that type of game.  You are right, it  
>>>is a game, so why can't you come to the table with the attitude in mind that  
>>>you are playing a GAME.  Why would it be necessary to come to the table  
>>>thinking you are the best and there is nothing you can't do.   
>> 
>> 
>>not nothing! just SOMETHING! the worlds strongest man is no good at ballet!  
> 
>Ah, but you don't understand, if it were something important I'd have a 3 or  
>4 great brick ballet dancers. 
> 
> 
>>please stop with this rubbish about roleplaying. Anything involving power  
>does not automatically preclude roleplaying- unless your trying to  
>oversimplify the argument?  
> 
>Yeah, let's take roleplaying out of this discussion about roleplaying.  It  
>will make things so much easier.  Huh? 
> 
 
yeah, that's what i said.. .. 
 
 
>>>You're statement about players feeling their  
>>>pcs are tough is true.  By itself, it causes not one problem.  It is when  
>>>they begin to brag or make other PCs feel inferior to them that it causes  
>>>problems.   
>> 
>>bad player! not bad concept! players abuse all sorts of things- treat the  
>'disease', not the symptoms! 
> 
>I am treating it, and I'm treating it fairly good over on my side. 
> 
 
 
no, to extend the metaphor you're amputating a limb to treat a hangnail.  
 
 
>>>That is what this thread on my side is about.  If you are reading  
>>>differently or trying to interpret something that I said as indicating  
>>>something different, I am sorry.  There it is, the meaning of my side.   
>>>Competitive against my players?  No, I try to work with my players and make  
>>>sure everyone is enjoying the game, it is when they aren't due to a problem  
>>>player that I may seem competitive to that player because I'm attempting to  
>>>prevent a lynch mob. 
>> 
>>once again- csomeone good at TK can have weakness elsewhere- may veen have NCM. 
>>But you keep linking 'good at one thing' to 'good at everything'.  
> 
>No, I don't.  I'm telling you my Power Gamers, link being good at being the  
>best at everything.  That is what they do.  I'm not linking.  It is the  
>truth.  What do you want from me?  I say fine be good at one thing be good  
>at a few things, in fact having linking skills that make sense.  Don't be  
>good at everything.  That is what they try. 
> 
>Sparx 
> 
> 
 
power gamers try to be good at everything. 'pro's' try to be good at one thing. The twain only meet when gm's label them simmilar.  
 
 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 02:06:19 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
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>>I recall saying my NPCs never  
>>outshine my PCs  
> 
>apart from when you specifically design them to do so, as you SAID you did  
with the force-tk-guy? 
 
Wrong, Force existed long before this player along with nearly 100 other  
NPCs that populate by campaign.  I guess I just have a lot of pets. 
 
>>if anything they come to the PCs for help even if they are  
>>more powerful in SOME areas.   
> 
>yes- and those are the areas that count. You already stated your assupption  
that  
>'powerful at one thing' leads to a power gamer 
 
Wrong again.  I have stated many times over that I have tons of average  
players who specialize their characters in one area.  The power gamer is the  
person who comes in and outshines every player in each area. 
 
>yup, AT me, u sure as hell ain't listening to either of us. . .  
 
Yeah, maybe I'm tired, or maybe it is the talking in circles that I've been  
doing.  
 
Sparx 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 02:14:04 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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>if you'd left the whole conversation in place it would be obvious to anybody-  
>you said something along the lines of :  
> 
>"player X cannon say thing Y because of npc Z" 
> 
>and i said: 
> 
>"WTF?" 
 
If I left the whole conversation in place it would take me weeks to scroll  
through now.  Point being, I'm not, maybe that is why I'm repeating myself  
so much. 
 
 
>>>then why all the mess about "a pc can't say they're the best because of npc  
>>X" rot? 
>> 
>>They can say they are the best if they so desire. It may or may not be true.  
>> I just want the PCs to understand they are part of a world, a universe that  
>>has been made by me, taking some work for their entertainment.  There is  
>>more to the game then the single player, there is the team, the GM, and the  
>>campaign world. 
>> 
> 
>They already know that i think the only person who needs to push the  
concept is you. 
 
They DO??? You know my players?  Please, give me a list of names. 
 
>>>So how does he have any part in this 'you're not the most powerful X' bit?  
>>does he show people up at TK weightlifting contests? 
>> 
>>Ok, let's forget about Force because I think he is muddling our  
>>conversation.  He would not show people up.  He is there as background of  
>>the world.   
> 
> 
>look at the statement i made above- these are your words! you asserted that  
the npc existed to prove the pc wasn't the best. 
 
You mean these words, ">Ok, let's forget about Force because I think he is  
muddling our  
>>conversation.  He would not show people up.  He is there as background of  
>>the world."  Yeah, that says to me he is to prove to the PC he isn't the best. 
 
>erm, yeah, that's what you mean. .. you stated this based on the 'powwer  
player' rationale, as it moved into 'good at one thing territory' i'm  
keeping track of my argumanet, please keep track of your own. 
 
Never changed my arguement, just misunderstood is all. 
 
>>They don't want to waste 5 hours listening to  
>>someone else prove his character is better in every way shape and form than  
>>there character.  Let me say EVERY way shape and form. 
>> 
> 
>but they have to hear about force? 
>no, no, i'm sure they never do.  
 
You do keep track of my arguement so well, you failed to mention that I  
could give you a list of my players and not one of them would be able to  
mention Force (said that a couple times) who was brought up because someone  
asked about making a Jean Grey equivalent on the list. 
 
>>Well, as this thread has proven, you can't say End of Discussion and  
>>actually have it happen.  This is even more true, when someone is trying to  
>>defend the right to their character design. 
>> 
> 
>no, it is true- you're the gm, you word is law. THIS is a disgussion of  
peers, THAT  
>is a basic tenant of roleplaying. 
 
My word is law, really?  I guess, you have your players whipped into shape.  
Hehehe...Well, let me say this, my word is not law and fights among peers  
break out.  I can say NO all I want, I could not allow a player to play a  
character but people aren't robots.  You don't say NO and have them say oh,  
ok, gm said, no, that means no, I'll behave.  Sheeah right. 
 
>you have sucessfully abandoned your original argument. congratulations.  
 
No, I've never left it.  I've just try to bring into light for you a little  
better. 
 
Sparx 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 17:43:20 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer) 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
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At 01:43 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>>I have READ your posts, and there is a big fat GAP between being goood at  
>TK and being a "god" like the teenage mutant psycic martial artist. 
> 
>Ok first, he wasn't a TK and he wasn't a mutant.  He was a PC power gamer.   
>Missed something did we?  He started as a martial artist and as he found  
>players had areas he did not have he would find a way to get the area and be  
>better at them with some rationale. 
> 
 
NO!!!! ONE GUY HAD TK, the other was the martial artist. 
and the mutant bit. . joke. . y'know. . teennage-mutant. . . . .  . .  
forget it. . . 
 
 
> You simply assume that anypowerful  
>>pc will be good at anything DESPITE the fact that in a points based game..  
>. with equal points. .equavilent spending ratio 'twixt powers, skill, ect. .  
> .and equivalent points-efficiancy. . this is about 2 steps from just plain  
>IMPOSSABLE!  
> 
>And you are assuming all of my players spend points in the same manner.  I  
>have already stated that the power gamers I have dealt with have managed to  
>pull nearly 100 more active points from breaks and stuff over my average  
>players.  Yes, it seems impossible, but it isn't with limitations, and point  
>breaks that most average players wouldn't bother with.  You see, he isn't  
>good at everything, just everything the other players try to specialize in  
>and he makes them look inferior to his character.  I refer to him as he, but  
>as I have stated before there is more than one. 
> 
>Sparx 
> 
> 
 
like i said - equivalent points-efficiancy- this is something you should enforce.  
 
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 17:51:55 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
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At 01:59 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>Well, yeah.  Right answer?  I don't know what am I suppose to say to that.   
>Does that make them the perfect or valid hero?  In your mind, yes.  In my  
>mind, the fireman who saves a dog from a burning building is every bit the hero. 
> 
 
power realistic, NOT heroic realistic! 
 
 
 
>>what the hell are you on about? since when did i say anything like that? 
>>look, either stick to >direct quotes or quit altogether, one thing i cannot  
>stand is barefaced misquotation like this. 
> 
>">>suggest that the pc COULD have suited this settting- he could be wierd in  
>>>his own way, imagine if the other pc's never got to meet him? But this is a  
>>>matter of character, and setting, not the 'powergamer' archetype." 
> 
 
um, excuse me? my statemant was responding to the statement you made  
that i was saying powerful npc's are power-gamers, what about viper, blah, blah.  
 
>Ok, this seems like direct quoting.  Looks like you are referring to me.   
>Maybe I'm wrong.  That is what I was referring about. 
> 
 
no, you weren't 
 
 
>>go ahead and stop, but don't pretend it's because i'm not listening- i've  
>been listenig all bloody day and you're WRONG! you npc cannot be supported  
>by that rationale.  
>>If you like the npc, FINE. 
>>but don't pretend it goes beyond that.  
> 
>It does.  WRONG would be defined here as not in accordance with your  
>thoughts I gather.  Fine, I'm wrong.  
> 
> 
> 
 
so anything disagreeing with you get this crap? i PROVED MY CASE! i have argued the point, useing logic, you have done nothing of the sort. If you didn't want to discuss it, why mention it? 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 17:54:01 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
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At 02:06 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>>>I recall saying my NPCs never  
>>>outshine my PCs  
>> 
>>apart from when you specifically design them to do so, as you SAID you did  
>with the force-tk-guy? 
> 
>Wrong, Force existed long before this player along with nearly 100 other  
>NPCs that populate by campaign.  I guess I just have a lot of pets. 
> 
 
despite you saying that 'npc X is here so pc Y can't say Z'? 
 
>>>if anything they come to the PCs for help even if they are  
>>>more powerful in SOME areas.   
>> 
>>yes- and those are the areas that count. You already stated your assupption  
>that  
>>'powerful at one thing' leads to a power gamer 
> 
>Wrong again.  I have stated many times over that I have tons of average  
>players who specialize their characters in one area.  The power gamer is the  
>person who comes in and outshines every player in each area. 
> 
 
you said that for a powergamer being powerful at one thing means being powerful at everything. 
 
 
>>yup, AT me, u sure as hell ain't listening to either of us. . .  
> 
>Yeah, maybe I'm tired, or maybe it is the talking in circles that I've been  
>doing.  
> 
>Sparx 
> 
> 
 
try keeping track of your argument. .  
 
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 18:00:05 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: Happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
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At 02:14 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>>if you'd left the whole conversation in place it would be obvious to anybody-  
>>you said something along the lines of :  
>> 
>>"player X cannon say thing Y because of npc Z" 
>> 
>>and i said: 
>> 
>>"WTF?" 
> 
>If I left the whole conversation in place it would take me weeks to scroll  
>through now.  Point being, I'm not, maybe that is why I'm repeating myself  
>so much. 
> 
> 
 
you're not repeating yourself- your denying you said things you did. 
 
>>look at the statement i made above- these are your words! you asserted that  
>the npc existed to prove the pc wasn't the best. 
> 
>You mean these words, ">Ok, let's forget about Force because I think he is  
>muddling our  
>>>conversation.  He would not show people up.  He is there as background of  
>>>the world."  Yeah, that says to me he is to prove to the PC he isn't the best. 
> 
 
no the statement I made- you introduced him stating he was the most powerful tk, and you did thins deliberatley.  
 
 
>>erm, yeah, that's what you mean. .. you stated this based on the 'powwer  
>player' rationale, as it moved into 'good at one thing territory' i'm  
>keeping track of my argumanet, please keep track of your own. 
> 
>Never changed my arguement, just misunderstood is all. 
> 
 
yes you did. 
 
 
>>>Well, as this thread has proven, you can't say End of Discussion and  
>>>actually have it happen.  This is even more true, when someone is trying to  
>>>defend the right to their character design. 
>>> 
>> 
>>no, it is true- you're the gm, you word is law. THIS is a disgussion of  
>peers, THAT  
>>is a basic tenant of roleplaying. 
> 
>My word is law, really?  I guess, you have your players whipped into shape.  
>Hehehe...Well, let me say this, my word is not law and fights among peers  
>break out.  I can say NO all I want, I could not allow a player to play a  
>character but people aren't robots.  You don't say NO and have them say oh,  
>ok, gm said, no, that means no, I'll behave.  Sheeah right. 
> 
 
this is typical! you are the one trying to out-do the players! you are the one limiting their options! i think everyone on the list would agree that the gm's word is final= it beats deus ex machinta crap like mr tk! 
 
 
>>you have sucessfully abandoned your original argument. congratulations.  
> 
>No, I've never left it.  I've just try to bring into light for you a little  
>better. 
> 
>Sparx 
> 
> 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"Stainless Steel Rat\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 97 10:53:03  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick 
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On 06 Sep 1997 22:57:56 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
>>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes: 
> 
>q> If you want a pure super-slick surface, try an Entangle with 
>q> appropriate limitations and advantages. 
> 
>The problem with using Entangle for this is that a high Strength will get 
>one out of it.  No advantage changes this aspect of Entangle. 
 
Yes, what's wrong with that? You just have the high-str individual 
forcing his hands / feet / whatever into the substance beneath. 
 
Example: Grond is fighting Ice Girl. Ice Girl creates a sheet of ice 
underneath Grond and he falls over. Grond forces his claws into the 
very rock beneath the ice, creating a handhold, and swings himself 
clear. But Ice Girl has already had time to flee. 
 
I suppose you could also do it with Gliding: Uncontrolled (optional), 
AoE, UAO, Ranged, No Effect vs those standing still. 
 
Change Environment is a good one, though. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Telekinesis 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Date: 07 Sep 1997 08:54:25 -0400 
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>>>>> "WGG" == William G Geiger <willggeiger@juno.com> writes: 
 
WGG> I agree, although, see that Ming vase over there?  If you try to pick 
WGG> it up with TK BoECV, does said vase have a 0 ECV, or a not applicable 
WGG> ECV, and can't be directly affected by such? 
 
It has no Dexterity yet it has an effective DCV of 0; it has no Ego, but it 
should still have an effective ECV of 0. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 08:25:00 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer) 
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>At 01:39 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>>>three mays you copped out: 
>>> 
>>>you copped out of the rationale behind all disgussion 'there is no right' 
>> 
>>This is not a cop out.  I am telling you that my way is right for my  
>>players, my campaigns, my rulings.  I am telling you it may be completely  
>>wrong for you.  Fine, so be it.  So I'm suppose to say there is a right?  I  
>>just haven't seen your way yet? 
>> 
>>> 
>>>you copped out of admiting the generalities of the pc's 'my players are  
>>worse than yours' 
>> 
>>My players are no worse or no better than any other players.  I know what  
>>works for them and what doesn't and I use it. 
>> 
>>> 
>>>you copped out of a challenge 'no mr player, here's a large, powerful npc  
>>that says your wrong - despite the issue being abstract to the extreme and  
>>not really requiring a solid ruling' 
>> 
>>Huh? 
>> 
>>> 
>>>>>>No, in fact, I enjoy the fact that some players come to the table with a  
>>new  
>>>>>>character that has some experience prior to game play.  I enjoy seeing  
the  
>>>>>>powerful character even.  My statement was don't come to the table  
thinking  
>>>>>>you are the most powerful X because you probably aren't, come to the  
table  
>>>>>>to have fun and role play and be a team player. 
>>>> 
>>>>>what's wrong with thinkin that? IT'S A GAME! look, sorry, but this is  
>>>>sounding a lot like a compeditive gm who want's the pc's to feel  
inferior to  
>>>>his creations. There is NO reason that feeling like yer pc is tough is EVER  
>>>>going to cause problems in itself- if anything, you may be adopting a  
>>>>compeditive attitude just as much as they are.  
>>>> 
>>>>What's wrong with thinking that you are better than everyone else you are  
>>>>playing with you ask?   
>>> 
>>> 
>>>IN ONE _GIVEN_ AREA!!  
>> 
>>NOTHING IN ONE GIVEN AREA!! WE AGREE HERE!! STOP IT!! 
 
 
>so telekinesis isn't one area? 
 
Oops.  As I said it was tired last night approaching 2am and after working  
an 8 hour day.  That should be NOTHING!!  As in nothing is wrong with them  
having one good given area.  WE AGREE!! HERE!! STOP IT!! 
 
 
>power gamers try to be good at everything. 'pro's' try to be good at one  
thing. The twain only meet when gm's label them simmilar.  
 
And I know the difference there.  Never said I have.  I have never labled a  
person a power gamer, my gaming group has on more than one occasion.  Since  
the majority rules and 5 or 6 people come to me complaining about one  
individual, what would you label him?   Just really annoying? 
 
Sparx 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 08:31:53 -0500 (CDT) 
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From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
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>At 01:59 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>>Well, yeah.  Right answer?  I don't know what am I suppose to say to that.   
>>Does that make them the perfect or valid hero?  In your mind, yes.  In my  
>>mind, the fireman who saves a dog from a burning building is every bit the  
hero. 
>> 
> 
>power realistic, NOT heroic realistic! 
 
And I was talking heroics while you are talking realistics.  So really I  
guess we weren't talking the same convesation there at all. 
 
>>>go ahead and stop, but don't pretend it's because i'm not listening- i've  
>>been listenig all bloody day and you're WRONG! you npc cannot be supported  
>>by that rationale.  
>>>If you like the npc, FINE. 
>>>but don't pretend it goes beyond that.  
>> 
>>It does.  WRONG would be defined here as not in accordance with your  
>>thoughts I gather.  Fine, I'm wrong.  
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
>so anything disagreeing with you get this crap? i PROVED MY CASE! i have  
argued the point, useing logic, you have done nothing of the sort. If you  
didn't want to discuss it, why mention it? 
 
Not at all.  I've just learned that your logic is defined by your own  
standards.  A misunderstanding on either you or my part turns into me not  
being logical.  Late night typing turns me into slush, maybe I shouldn't  
have aruged with you then, but you were there online.  On top of this, it  
seems more to me you are arguing for me, telling me when I'm thinking or  
saying in more than one occassion.  It may have been how you interpreted me,  
but when I say, "No, I wasn't saying that." You take it the wrong way.  I  
don't know why I mention things on this list at some points and times.   
There are some really great people out on it, there are some good ideas  
floating around.  I come here to share those ideas and enjoy myself.  But on  
more than one occasion, I've seen and been ripped apart my people in threads  
that won't stop simply because I or another differ from someone in thought.   
It doesnt' bother me.  Like I said, I come here to share ideas with others.   
Those that do, I feel we both benefit, those that already know it all, don't  
need me. 
 
Sparx 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 08:35:47 -0500 (CDT) 
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From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
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>At 02:06 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>>>>I recall saying my NPCs never  
>>>>outshine my PCs  
>>> 
>>>apart from when you specifically design them to do so, as you SAID you did  
>>with the force-tk-guy? 
>> 
>>Wrong, Force existed long before this player along with nearly 100 other  
>>NPCs that populate by campaign.  I guess I just have a lot of pets. 
>> 
> 
>despite you saying that 'npc X is here so pc Y can't say Z'? 
 
Seems you want me to say player Z ok, "NPC X exists, so PLAYER Y can't come  
to my table thinking he is the best Z.  He can Z all he wants."  Clearer for  
you? 
 
> 
>>>>if anything they come to the PCs for help even if they are  
>>>>more powerful in SOME areas.   
>>> 
>>>yes- and those are the areas that count. You already stated your assupption  
>>that  
>>>'powerful at one thing' leads to a power gamer 
>> 
>>Wrong again.  I have stated many times over that I have tons of average  
>>players who specialize their characters in one area.  The power gamer is the  
>>person who comes in and outshines every player in each area. 
>> 
> 
>you said that for a powergamer being powerful at one thing means being  
powerful at everything. 
 
I said, that I based this on what?  MY PLAYERS.  How hard is this for you to  
understand.  I'm not coming up with this off the top of my head.  I've been  
watching various players for nearly 10 years.  I've been learning this stuff  
through experience.  They equate being powerful with being powerful at  
everything, YES, they do.  I do not, nor have I ever said, being good at one  
thing means being powerful at everything.  I have even mentioned various  
other characters that specialized in various fields and never even once  
claimed they were power gamers. 
 
>>>yup, AT me, u sure as hell ain't listening to either of us. . .  
>> 
>>Yeah, maybe I'm tired, or maybe it is the talking in circles that I've been  
>>doing.  
 
>try keeping track of your argument. .  
 
Why bother, when you are so good at telling me what I've said. 
 
Sparx 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 08:42:30 -0500 (CDT) 
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From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
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>At 02:14 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>>>if you'd left the whole conversation in place it would be obvious to  
anybody-  
>>>you said something along the lines of :  
>>> 
>>>"player X cannon say thing Y because of npc Z" 
>>> 
>>>and i said: 
>>> 
>>>"WTF?" 
>> 
>>If I left the whole conversation in place it would take me weeks to scroll  
>>through now.  Point being, I'm not, maybe that is why I'm repeating myself  
>>so much. 
>> 
>> 
> 
>you're not repeating yourself- your denying you said things you did. 
 
I'm denying saying things you said, I've said.   
 
> 
>>>look at the statement i made above- these are your words! you asserted that  
>>the npc existed to prove the pc wasn't the best. 
>> 
>>You mean these words, ">Ok, let's forget about Force because I think he is  
>>muddling our  
>>>>conversation.  He would not show people up.  He is there as background of  
>>>>the world."  Yeah, that says to me he is to prove to the PC he isn't the  
best. 
>> 
> 
>no the statement I made- you introduced him stating he was the most  
powerful tk, and you did thins deliberatley.  
 
Actually, he has never been introduced.  Except, on this list.  So I guess  
that rules that out. 
 
 
>>>erm, yeah, that's what you mean. .. you stated this based on the 'powwer  
>>player' rationale, as it moved into 'good at one thing territory' i'm  
>>keeping track of my argumanet, please keep track of your own. 
>> 
>>Never changed my arguement, just misunderstood is all. 
>> 
> 
>yes you did. 
> 
> 
>>>>Well, as this thread has proven, you can't say End of Discussion and  
>>>>actually have it happen.  This is even more true, when someone is trying to  
>>>>defend the right to their character design. 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>>no, it is true- you're the gm, you word is law. THIS is a disgussion of  
>>peers, THAT  
>>>is a basic tenant of roleplaying. 
>> 
>>My word is law, really?  I guess, you have your players whipped into shape.  
>>Hehehe...Well, let me say this, my word is not law and fights among peers  
>>break out.  I can say NO all I want, I could not allow a player to play a  
>>character but people aren't robots.  You don't say NO and have them say oh,  
>>ok, gm said, no, that means no, I'll behave.  Sheeah right. 
>> 
> 
>this is typical! you are the one trying to out-do the players! you are the  
one limiting their options! i think everyone on the list would agree that  
the gm's word is final= it beats deus ex machinta crap like mr tk! 
 
Wait, according to you, I'm trying to outdue the players, while you are just  
trying to subdue the players.  What is worst?  My campaign world that  
explains why you can't be the most powerful at somethings versus others  or  
a GM who says, because I'm GOD  YOU CAN'T DO IT.  THE GM HAS SPOKEN.  THE  
GREAT AND POWERFUL GM HAS SPOKEN, DO NOT LOOK BEHIND THE CURTAIN.  Because  
behind that curtain is still a normal person who some might listen to, but  
not everyone, and if everyone listens to every word from a GM as law, teach  
me how, I'm waiting and listening. 
 
Sparx 
 
 
 
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From: John Doe <juan@henge.com> 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 07:46:32 -0600 
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Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
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Jones (happyelfie) 
 
I think you and I are talking apples and oranges because every time I 
mention the CHARACTER and the player's actions, you jump right into the 
powers involved and a sort-of fakey realism test.  "Well, in a realistic 
world, he _WOULD_ hide and snipe."  "Well, in a realistic world, he would 
have no friggin' powers!  Duh!" 
 
>> snip Mr Teek story 
>>Then this guy tried to hide on a building far away and teek at the bad guys. 
>>Very "realistic?" no.   
> 
>actually this is extremly accurate- haven't you ever heard of artilery? 
this is how a psycic would fight, why would a normal human stand around in 
squishing distance of a brick? 
>it was- if you want heroic behaviour, require that all pc's have it as a 
psyc lim.  
 
Extremely accurate?  Please point me to the superheroes who do this... They 
don't.  SuperHERO game.  NOT a Wild Cards game.  Not a superhumans who kill 
game.  Superhero game.  If I want heroic behavior, I'll play a superHERO 
game. Duh. 
 
> snip Mr Teek crows over "saving our bacon." 
>was it player or pc speaking? honestly? 
Considering Mr. Teek was hiding three miles away on a tall building, having 
always "helped out" from a distance and without introductions, um, it was 
the player, who was in the room with us. 
 
>Then you see a player wanting to play an ultra- powerful dude-  
>bulletproof, fast, brutal, this guy is WAY more likely to suvive the 
fights, and hence a more valid superhuman. . . . 
Ya wohl, mein herr.  Un Uberman.  A superhuman of death.  Not a more valid 
SUPERHERO!  Fine with me if you play killers of death and Teek ninjas but 
don't call them superheros or use "realistic" concerns to justify them. 
Something tells me you wince at all those "soppy" comics where the 
good-hearted but lowered-power guys come through because of moral quality or 
cooperation.  Image comics fan, maybe? 
 
 
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford) 
Subject: Re: Body Drain (was Curbing the Power Gamer was ( Is there a need for SPD?)) 
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 14:40:14 GMT 
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On Sat, 06 Sep 1997 21:03:43 +0600, you wrote: 
 
 
>> 
>        Yes, it all comes back together... 
>        Mr. Lansford, how do you treat Body Drains and Transfers?  Can they 
>kill?  Use the "optional" rules in Hero System Almanac I (Champions III) or 
>a house rule variant? 
>        I'm sorry this is off subject, but I don't want to let this go.  : P 
 
I rule that an attack that reduces BODY, whether it requires healing 
or if it recovers (like a Drain or Transfer), can kill when the 
negative BODY equals the starting value of the character. I use this 
to simulate disease based powers like Plague of the Seven Horsemen, or 
exotic "life draining" powers like Selene. Having a BODY 
drain/transfer kill is the only real reasonable way to simulate either 
one of these two types of attacks. 
 
I've tended to continue using the Champions III negative value rules 
for what happens below zero for characteristics because I find them 
very workable. Such things as negative intelligence, negative 
strength, and negative Body all make sense to me and the PC's in my 
campaign have a healthy respect for villains with such draining 
powers. 
 
John Lansford 
 
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 07 Sep 97 15:12:00 GMT 
Subject: Re: Speed 
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Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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 h > >  1rst, the gateway-style teleport. I feel that that should be based  
 h > > on an area effect, because objects must be pushed through or go  
 h > through  
 h > > under their own power.  
  
This was handled in Mystic Masters, as I remember it was a hex effect.  
Of course it could also be an F/X, but if there's a chance of something  
comming through from the other side, or someone going through on thier  
own, the AE works.  To make it effect anyone going in, the moment they  
go in, you have to buy an odd, Continuous, Teleport, but oh well.  
  
 h > >  2nd, 'slippery' entangles. The greased floor schtick isn't handled  
 h > > at *all* well.  
  
There are  a number of solutions to this one.  Entangle being one of the  
less workable.  I've also seen AE, knockback-only attacks, DEX or SPD  
drains, running drains, movement powers useable against others, AE Martial  
Throws (really), etc.  The problem with these is that they don't represent  
the effect too well, and they are often too expensive or too effective.  
  
When you think about it, high DEX characters should be able to negotiate  
the old slippery floor without too much trouble, but with many of the attempts  
being strong or massive is what defends you, while others just plain work  
automatically.  
  
You'd think that if you came accross an ordinary, unbought, patch of ice,  
the GM would call for a DEX roll, with penalties if you're going really  
fast (non-combat velocities).  Since most supers have at least a 13- DEX  
roll, this really isn't a terribly powerful effect.  Hmmm minor effect  
on combat by making the floor slippery.  Sounds like a Change Environment.  
As long as you don't expect too much from it, CE works fine.  
  
 h > >  3rd, Flash effects, note there are *no* modifiers for ambient  
 h > > conditions (a flash in full sunlight really *isn't* going to work  
 h > too well.) BTW, since the 4th edition rule-change on pricing, does  
 h > *anybody* use flash attacks anymore?  
  
Flash doesn't have to be a flash of bright light - there's no reason  
for a pepper spray to work better at night, for instance.  A flash which  
really depended on realtive darkness could have a limitation.  A 'standard'  
bright light flash might lose a die in bright sunlight and gain a die in  
near darkness per 'Special Effects.'  
 
 
Since the 4th Ed opened up the possibility of Flashing other senses than  
sight, I've seen a lot of creative uses of the power.  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 97 11:33:08 -0400 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
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Jeremiah Driscoll jdriscol@vt.edu 9/6/97 9:03 PM 
 
>Okay, let's go to Sparx's example of Force, a powerful NPC TK.  Okay, he has 
>created a game world for the characters to play in.  Let's say it's pretty 
>darn detailed.  Thus, it *probably* took quite a bit of time.  As part of 
>this elaborate game world, he created Force.  And Force is defined as a 
>certain power level. 
>Now, a PC comes up with a TK.  He's pretty good, as written, but the 
>*Player* says, "My PC is the most powerful TK in the world, so no one is 
>better, okay?"  The GM says, "um, no.  There's this NPC *WHO IS ALREADY 
>ESTABLISHED* in the game world, *WHO HAS ALREADY ENCOUNTERED OTHER PCs* who 
>is more powerful than the PC you have written.  PLUS, I can't guarantee that 
>he's the best.  What if Player 'B' comes up with a more powerful TKer?" 
>To which the Player says, "But he won't, because I'm the most powerful... 
>just tell him so.  And write out your NPC (who has already had a drastic 
>effect on the world)." 
 
Actually, it has been stated that the PCs have NEVER encountered Force. 
Consiquently, it shouldn't be that difficult write him out.  Further, 
reducing the power of the NPC shouldn't have that much counter effect on  
the game world.  If he's had a "drastic effect", which Sparx certainly  
doesn't 
seem to be saying, that doesn't have to translate to a high power level, 
just a good nudge at the right time. 
 
As to the second case, where Player B comes in, that's fine.  "You WERE  
the most  
powerful but my world's hardly static so that may or may not remain the  
case." 
 
Admittedly, I'm not particularly scared of powerful PCs though. :) 
 
PAX, 
John 
 
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 97 11:33:10 -0400 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
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Legionair@aol.com Legionair@aol.com 9/6/97 11:56 PM 
 
>Again, I might be in the minority, but I feel that a player's character 
>concept is more important than how many points were used.  If there is a 
>character a player wants to play, that happens to be well balanced, then I 
>could not care less whether the player used one hundred points or one 
>thousand. 
> 
>That being the case, not all of the character's in my games can be conviently 
>slotted like that.  Diversity is what keeps the game interesting. 
 
Just for the record, I, for one, agree.  However, you do have to be  
careful  
when it comes to the specific players you have when this is the approach. 
Some players will build well balanced, well thought out 1000 pt characters 
and not, in general, be a problem.  Others will build 100 point characters 
with a 900 point RKA saying "but it;s Cyclops!"  It sounds like you deal  
more 
with the former and jones (aka happyelf :)) deals more with the latter. 
 
PAX, 
John  
 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 97 11:33:12 -0400 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
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Happyelf! jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 9/7/97 1:52 AM 
 
>>Fine, great, I love a good fight as well as anyone  
>>else but there is more to role playing than fighting.  Why would Force turn  
>>up to pound someone else who claims the title?  As I could explain if you  
>>were in my campaign and actually met Force, he wouldn't care if you claimed  
>>it.  Go ahead.   
> 
>then why all the mess about "a pc can't say they're the best because of  
>npc X" rot? 
 
A PC can say anything they like, a PLAYER will be incorrect, in Sparx  
campaign, 
if they say "my PC is the best due to the mechanic."  At least that  
appears to 
be what Sparxx is saying. 
 
PAX, 
John 
 
Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer) 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 97 11:33:14 -0400 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
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Happyelf! jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 9/7/97 2:06 AM 
 
>>Let's see.  It causes tension between players,  
>>dislike, outright arguements, a breakdown of the game to mechanics, and ends  
>>a game and has ended some friendships over petty stuff.   
> 
>Now, competition between players does that, being good at something is  
>bound to happen- we are talking about superhumans here. who causes that 
>(player competition)? does this have to do with the issue at hand? no. It  
>has to do with bad players. Bad players have all sorts of issues, and the  
>idea is to look at them, not limit game concepts so that all they can get  
>their hands on are genre-limited straightjackets.  
 
These tensions have nothing to do with "bad players", they're human  
nature. 
We spend most of our live competing in one form or another, including most 
"games".  It is highly unrealistic to expect that human beings will quit 
competeing just because they are playing an RPG.  At best, the players  
will 
cooperate seeing that a group competing with the outside world has a  
better 
chance that an individual, kinda like life.  If you've got a group of  
players 
you _think_ aren't competeing with each other, your deluding yourself, or  
they 
are being very subtile.  But if they are human, they are competing. 
 
>>I don't know, maybe it is me, I enjoy role playing because it is fun,  
>>challenging, and there is a risk to my character.  I wouldn't want to play  
>>if I was guaranteed a win everytime.   
>please stop with this rubbish about roleplaying. Anything involving power  
>does not automatically preclude roleplaying- unless your trying to  
>oversimplify the argument?  
 
I agree with jones (:)) here.  Power does not preclude role-playing.    
However 
it can, in many instances, make for increased tensions dependant on your 
specific players.  
 
>once again- csomeone good at TK can have weakness elsewhere- may veen have  
>NCM.  But you keep linking 'good at one thing' to 'good at everything'.  
 
This does appear to be the weak spot in Sparx arguement.  However, he  
appears 
to be dealing with one PLAYER who feels that "best at X" doesn't required  
any 
reduced effectiveness at anything else.  This can/does cause problems. 
 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer) 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 97 11:33:16 -0400 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
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Happyelf! jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 9/7/97 2:11 AM 
 
>At 12:43 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote:t talking about 'total power', i'm  
>talking aobut 'being best at X'. . .  
>> 
>>The problem here, is that most, and I say this with my past players in mind,  
>>powergamers will make being best at X equal total power.  If you ask how by  
>>now, then you haven't been reading all of my posts.  Take it easy and talk  
>>at you later. 
>> 
>>Sparx 
> 
>I have READ your posts, and there is a big fat GAP between being goood at  
>TK and being a "god" like the teenage mutant psycic martial artist. You  
>simply assume that anypowerful pc will be good at anything DESPITE the fact  
>that in a points based game with equal points equavilent spending ratio  
>'twixt powers, skill, ect. and equivalent points-efficiancy this is about 2  
>steps from just plain IMPOSSABLE!  
 
In all fairness, I've seen players who could nearly triple active points  
by 
hitting all the break points and putting together just the right set of  
limitations, etc.  Point based _helps_ limit the PC as God problem, but it 
doesn't stop it entirely, unfortunately. 
 
PAX, 
John 
 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer) 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 97 11:33:18 -0400 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
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Happyelf! jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 9/7/97 2:21 AM 
 
>>Well, big problem here in this conversation.  I'm talking about the player  
>>declaring his character the best X due to mechanics and asking the GM to  
>>make sure that mechanically speaking he is.  As I have said in an earlier  
>>post if he wishes to claim to be the best X the entire game he is more than  
>>welcome to.  There is a big difference in claiming and actually attempting  
>>to be, and that is where I'm thinking our conversation and split.  
> 
>i think you miss the point- you can't use an npc (campaign concept) to  
>disprove a statement about mechanics (rules concept) any more than the gm  
>(rules concept) can talk to a pc (campaign concept). 
> 
>Hence I think it's pretty clear why i made the assumption that i did. 
 
This is a little nuts, jones.  An example of mechanic X imbedded in an  
NPC can 
most certainly disprove a statement about said mechanic.  I say, "my TK  
at  
75 STR is the most powerful TK you, the GM, will allow."  The GM says,  
"sorry, 
but Force already has a 100 STR TK."  Pretty much proves the point. 
 
>>Not really, just give it out equally.  If I have 3 bricks playing in a game,  
>>each at different str. levels, it would be fair of me to say, you all have  
>>the POTENTIAL (candy) to become the strongest in the campaign.   
> 
>but what if they talk about 'strongest in party'? 
 
Even then, from a _player_ perspective, the _players_ would have to be  
comfortable with this.  The GM sould not be limiting Bricks B & C just 
because A wants to be the strongest.  I'd think you'd be against the 
arbitrary limiting of all the players except A?  Remember the _player_ is 
saying most powerful X, and intends his PC to be the yard stick.  Hence, 
once most powerful, always most powerful, it's "concept". 
 
PAX, 
John 
 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 97 11:33:20 -0400 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
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Happyelf! jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 9/7/97 2:48 AM 
 
>>I recall saying my NPCs never outshine my PCs  
> 
>apart from when you specifically design them to do so, as you SAID you did  
>with the force-tk-guy? 
 
No he did NOT!  He said their is another TK baased character whose TK is 
stronger than the PCs.  He said that character is in another part of the 
world and has NEVER interacted with the PCs.  If there is NO interaction, 
it's very difficult to be "outshining" anyone.  Please try to be  
reasonable. 
 
>>if anything they come to the PCs for help even if they are  
>>more powerful in SOME areas.   
> 
>yes- and those are the areas that count. You already stated your  
>assupption that 'powerful at one thing' leads to a power gamer 
 
He stated that some of his PLAYERS equate the two and he has to stop  
them.   
He has NEVER stated that power necessarily leads to "all powerful" in all  
cases or even in the cases of NPCs.  Further he has stated that NPC are  
NEVER all powerful and have to come to the PCs for help periodically. 
 
PAX, 
John 
 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 97 11:33:22 -0400 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
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Happyelf! jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 9/7/97 3:51 AM 
 
>>It does.  WRONG would be defined here as not in accordance with your  
>>thoughts I gather.  Fine, I'm wrong.  
> 
>so anything disagreeing with you get this crap? i PROVED MY CASE! i have  
>argued the point, useing logic, you have done nothing of the sort. If you  
>didn't want to discuss it, why mention it? 
 
You really haven't "proven" anything.  Sparx is talking about specific  
problems he has seen.  Your saying that he never saw them, which is, 
frankly, a little dumb.  Sparx has said that allowing someone to be the 
"best at X" and "equivilent to better than the other PCs at everything 
else" is highly disruptive.  You don't actually disagree with this do you? 
 
Unfortunately, this discussion is also a bit broken, as the tendancy to  
get 
"best at X" and "equivilent to better than the other PCs at everything  
else" 
is being mixed with "can a player just have "best at X".  Maybe the  
discussion 
should be re-routed into "is it dangerous to allow average players a  
chaaracter 
with a "most Powerful" concept.  I think Sparx is pointing out a  
legitimate 
concern reguarding this, namely that power gamers will abuse it (like  
everything 
else).  However some other views would be nice, maybe experieces with  
non-power 
gamers who have successfully used "most powerful" concepts? 
 
PAX, 
John 
 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 97 11:33:23 -0400 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
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Happyelf! jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 9/7/97 3:54 AM 
 
>you said that for a powergamer being powerful at one thing means being  
>powerful at everything. 
 
I'd say this is a pretty accurate definition, myself.  It's the reason 
high point characters and even relitivvely powerful characters don't 
necessarily need to be called Power Gamers, IMHO.  After all you can be 
the best in one thing, or even a tight goup of things, without trying to 
be the best at EVERYTHING. 
 
PAX, 
John 
 
From: Legionair@aol.com 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 12:14:29 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers 
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In a message dated 97-09-07 11:31:41 EDT, asahoshi@nr.infi.net writes: 
 
<< Just for the record, I, for one, agree.  However, you do have to be 
careful when it comes to the specific players you have when this is the 
approach.  Some players will build well balanced, well thought out 1000 pt 
characters and not, in general, be a problem.  Others will build 100 point 
characters with a 900 point RKA saying "but it;s Cyclops!"  It sounds like 
you deal more with the former and jones (aka happyelf :)) deals more with the 
latter. 
  PAX, 
 John  >> 
 
Agreed, on all points. 
 
In one of my current games a PC wanted to play a Daxamite (think Mon'El or 
Superman, with only minor differences).  At first it seemed like a disaster, 
but I had the player send me a background and personality write up first. 
 From there I saw plenty of plot devices and ideas that I could use.  Enough 
that it far out weighed the potential for game corruption.  On top of this, I 
was fairly familar with the player as well and knew that he wouldn't take the 
character too far. 
 
The difference here was that the character concept *ITSELF* was enough of a 
disadvantage to balance the cost of creating the characters.  I'm not talking 
about having 300 points in disads or having a terrible life story or anything 
like that...  Just that the way in which the player was planning to play the 
character would place enough limitations on the character that it would 
balance out. 
 
I also play fast and furious with the rules.  The way I see it, the rules 
were designed as a framework, not a cage.  The framework is the basis from 
which all the players and the GM view the gameworld.  Arguing over the 
nuances of the verbage for the rules only reinforces the cage. 
 
The GM and the players should have an understanding in this way, so that the 
players do trust the GM...  In other words, if I think it's dramatically 
important to have the bad guy's flunkies surprise and overpower the PCs, then 
they'll go along with it.  They don't go along with it because I said so, 
just because they trust that I don't do that sort of thing lightly and 
because the rules bend both ways.  If I cheat on behalf of the storyline then 
I cheat equally as much on behalf of the PCs. 
 
If I need the PCs to be surprised and overtaken, when the really should not 
be, then I come up with a good reason why this happened ahead of time.  As 
well, I plan to let the PCs bend the rules back later on by doing something 
they shouldn't have been able to do...  Just like in the comics that we're 
trying to emulate, certain things *have* to happen for the plot.  Then, at 
the end of the story, the characters always manage to do something you didn't 
expect, something that wasn't written in the character sheet.  Be it an EB at 
a crucial moment...  Knocking the bad guy out with a quick punch...  etc. 
etc. 
 
The idea is to keep the game rolling, keep the story interesting, make sure 
that all the players have an equal amount of input into the situation 
(whether they are playing the above mentioned Daxamite, a Darkstar spy, or 
the Combat Medic).  The point of all of it is to have fun, not to argue until 
the cows come home. 
 
I don't mean to sound like I stress the storyline/plotline more than I stress 
the PCs actions in it.  The storyline is actually less important than the 
PCs, but not by much.  I just keep my plots and subplots open enough that I 
can shuffle them around and exchange them without much fuss. 
 
As a bad D&D example, if the party reachs a fork in the road and I want them 
to take the right side, but instead they take the left, I don't blow a 
gasket.  I reach further down the road, to a different fork, and make that 
fork the left side.  Eventually, as they move along, I provide a different 
red herring to follow which eventually leads them back to the storyline I had 
intended. 
 
Jason 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:10:56 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: A Few Simple Requests... 
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With the volume being generated over the whole 'Curbing the Power Gamer' 
thread, I'd like to make a couple of simple requests: 
 
1.) please trim them to the absolute minimum of reposted material. Don't 
repost fifteen lines of material and reply with a single line. 
2.) please don't feel you _need_ to reply to everything. It is not that 
important to 'get the last word' (this complaint arises from about 15 
messages from each of the 3 main participants in the argument, all fairly 
long and generated within the last 12 hours) 
3.) please don't degenerate into antagonism 
4.) please try to decide if you're getting anywhere - if not, try to agree 
to disagree (I say this because the powergamer is a universal game problem - 
sure, it's relevant to the champs list, but the best place for the 
discussion is rec.games.frp.misc...) 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!" 
-John comments on Feng Shui 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:29:40 -0400 
Subject: Re: Telekinesis 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-3,5-38 
From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger) 
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Sounds good enough to me.  Thanks, I had been wondering about that for a 
long time. 
 Aloha,  WillGGeiger@juno.com 
 
On 07 Sep 1997 08:54:25 -0400 Stainless Steel Rat 
<ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "WGG" == William G Geiger <willggeiger@juno.com> writes: 
> 
>WGG> I agree, although, see that Ming vase over there?  If you try to  
>pick 
>WGG> it up with TK BoECV, does said vase have a 0 ECV, or a not  
>applicable 
>WGG> ECV, and can't be directly affected by such? 
> 
>It has no Dexterity yet it has an effective DCV of 0; it has no Ego,  
>but it 
>should still have an effective ECV of 0. 
> 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
>Version: 2.6.3a 
>Charset: noconv 
> 
>iQCVAwUBNBKj+p6VRH7BJMxHAQF5QwP/X7+R/POqJ7nQJFSlVf0QIbCQOAGoM4zl 
>BxznKrtC7MpAjBmSIziLgh+tzWKpkqPtnAj3Y1me4NDVytbM7hPDJOyqXBwcjqpu 
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>=/O9f 
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
> 
>--  
>Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball  
>should be 
>PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container  
>and 
>                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
> 
> 
 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 14:01:51 -0400 
Subject: Re: A Few Simple Requests... 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-2,5-11,13 
From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger) 
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 Aloha,  WillGGeiger@juno.com 
 
On Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:10:56 -0400 (EDT) jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron 
Prins) writes: <snip>4.) please try to decide if you're getting anywhere 
- if not, try to  
>agree 
>to disagree (I say this because the powergamer is a universal game  
>problem - 
>sure, it's relevant to the champs list, but the best place for the 
>discussion is rec.games.frp.misc...) 
  
Or maybe off-lists entirely, sent just to the individual e-mail 
addresses.  Most of the powergamer thread is now threadbare. 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 16:35:31 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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>Okay, let's go to Sparx's example of Force, a powerful NPC TK.  Okay, he has 
>created a game world for the characters to play in.  Let's say it's pretty 
>darn detailed.  Thus, it *probably* took quite a bit of time.  As part of 
>this elaborate game world, he created Force.  And Force is defined as a 
>certain power level. 
>Now, a PC comes up with a TK.  He's pretty good, as written, but the 
>*Player* says, "My PC is the most powerful TK in the world, so no one is 
>better, okay?"  The GM says, "um, no.  There's this NPC *WHO IS ALREADY 
>ESTABLISHED* in the game world, *WHO HAS ALREADY ENCOUNTERED OTHER PCs* who 
>is more powerful than the PC you have written.  PLUS, I can't guarantee that 
>he's the best.  What if Player 'B' comes up with a more powerful TKer?" 
>To which the Player says, "But he won't, because I'm the most powerful... 
>just tell him so.  And write out your NPC (who has already had a drastic 
>effect on the world)." 
> 
>so...  NO. 
> 
>I think this is what Sparx was saying.  A game world takes *A DAMN LOT* of 
>effort.  I know.  And I like to keep a *damn* sight of continuity in my 
>games.  So tossing Force wouldn't be an option for myself either. 
> 
>I hope *someone* gets something from this.  I'd like to see a reply each 
>from Michael Jones and Sparx to this to see what they think...  but...  heh, 
>I don't control them.  : ) 
> 
>- Jerry 
>who has just GMed 6 hours of Champions, and has been reading E-mail for the 
>past hour. 
>"I'm done, man."  "What, you finished your turn?"  "No, man.  I'm done." 
> 
 
Thanks.  Finally it seems I'm understood.  This is what I mean.  That is all  
I ever met.  It seems things have been misunderstood and arguements have  
started from such.  I was wondering if I was muddled or not clear about my  
meaning, but thanks for making it a bit easier to see. 
 
Sparx 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 16:36:49 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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>At 05:03 PM 9/7/97 +1000, Michael Jones wrote: 
>>>>>Let's see.  It causes tension between players,  
>>>>>dislike, outright arguements, a breakdown of the game to mechanics, and 
>ends  
>>>>>a game and has ended some friendships over petty stuff.   
>>>> 
>>>>Now, competition between players does that, being good at something is  
>>>bound to happen-  
>>>>we are talking about superhumans here. who causes that(player competition)?  
>>>does this have to do with the issue at hand? no. It has to do with bad  
>>>players. Bad players have all sorts of issues, and the idea is to look at  
>>>them, not limit game concepts so that all they can get their hands on are  
>>>genre-limited straightjackets.  
>>> 
>>>So now, you are calling my players bad?  Hey!  Only I can do that.  It has  
>>>everything to do with the issue at hand since all I've been talking about  
>>>since I've started my conversation is my players and my experiences with 
>them.   
>>> 
>> 
>>your talking about things players do wrong, but acting like it's a problem 
>with charactr creation. it isn't. .  
>> 
>But aren't the Players responsible for character generation?  Nowhere in the 
>entire discussion have I heard Sparx say anything about a problem with the 
>*game mechanics* of character creation. 
>If the players are causing problems during character creation because of 
>their attitudes, then it would be a problem *with the players* _and_ *with 
>character creation*.  Right? 
> 
>- Jerry 
 
Yes, that is what I have been saying.  Never did I say the system was messed  
up or the mechanics. I  love Champions as a game.  I have some bad players  
and that is where this conversation is stemming from. 
 
Sparx 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 18:39:44 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden 
Subject: Re: Fractional SPD 
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On Tue, 2 Sep 1997, Curtis Gibson wrote: 
 
> >    An idea I toyed with re: fractional SPD was to allow someone with a 
> > half-mark of SPD to move as though he had twice that SPD, but only every 
> > other Phase. 
 
[...] 
 
> Something use in my campaigns to good effect; buying activating speed. 
> The character rolls in 12 (or post 12) and if the speed activates they 
> run at the higher speed the next turn.  
>  
> It is especially appriopriate for martial artists types who train thier 
> speed up. Start at an 8- then 11- then 14- then normal. As a point 
> comparison an 11- point of speed cost the same as a half point, and 
> (statistically) runs the same as the example above. 
 
Except that somebody with 11- Activation will get an extra action over 60% 
of the time, whereas the half point will only yield the extra action half 
the time. (Aside: why did they make 11- be the -1 level rather than 10-?) 
 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 16:42:16 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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>Happyelf! jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 9/7/97 1:52 AM 
> 
>>>Fine, great, I love a good fight as well as anyone  
>>>else but there is more to role playing than fighting.  Why would Force turn  
>>>up to pound someone else who claims the title?  As I could explain if you  
>>>were in my campaign and actually met Force, he wouldn't care if you claimed  
>>>it.  Go ahead.   
>> 
>>then why all the mess about "a pc can't say they're the best because of  
>>npc X" rot? 
> 
>A PC can say anything they like, a PLAYER will be incorrect, in Sparx  
>campaign, 
>if they say "my PC is the best due to the mechanic."  At least that  
>appears to 
>be what Sparxx is saying. 
> 
>PAX, 
>John 
 
Yes, I have no problem with a PC that runs around my campaign world say,  
"I'm the strongest."  I have a problem if the player of that character  
believes it and throws a fit when someone stronger comes along.   
 
Sparx 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 18:47:04 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden 
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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On Tue, 2 Sep 1997, Robert Challenger wrote: 
 
> jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
> >  
> > hows about just having 'actions' equal to speed, like # of attacks? when 
> > someone wants an action, whoever has the highest number of actions 
> > left gos, dex deciding ties? 
> > 
>  
>  The reason against this would be that the higher speed character could 
> wait till the lower speeds use all their 'actions' and defend against 
> them, and then get basically free time where the others cant react. 
 
Err... they can do that _now_, can't they? 
 
>  [I dont think i explained that very well, so ill try to use an example] 
>  
>  We have Speed 6 Man, vs UberSpeed 4 
>  
> Action		S4			S6 
> 1		Attack			Dodge 
> 2		Attack			Dodge 
> 3		Attack			Dodge 
> 4		Attack			Dodge 
>  
>  Suddenly, Uber4 has no action left to defend himself or anything. 
>  
> 5		looks worried		Attack 
> 6		really worried		Haymaker 
>  
>  I think ive explained myself now. 
 
<shrug> Try it under current rules: 
 
Segment		S4		S6 
2				Delay 
3		Attack		Dodge/Block 
4		looks worried	Attack 
6		Attack		Dodge/Block 
8				Delay 
9		Attack		Dodge/Block 
10		really worried	Haymaker 
12		Attack		Dodge/Block 
 
Not much of a difference, really. 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 16:50:04 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: A Few Simple Requests... 
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Actually, I agree, but this is a good place to take up a conversation of the  
such.  True some are one liners and they are annoying and I'm as much to  
blame as anyone.  The conversational nature of the last 12 hours is due to  
the fact that HappyElf and I were on at the same time and pretty much just  
responding to e-mail one right after another.  I was tempted to take it  
off-lists, but felt others may or may not want to put in their  input.   
Without being insulting, it is always possible, to simply not read a thread  
you don't like.  I realize some get tired of deleting and receiving e-mail  
as I often do, but when I come across a thread that no longer interest me, I  
just stay out of it.  On the other hand though, at the time of the  
conversational e-mail I was wondering to myself, "Wouldn't it be simpler in  
a chat room or through ICQ?"  Does anyone know of a Champions chat area?  Do  
members of this list have ICQ?  On the flip side of this though, through the  
e-mail it allows both sides the ability to go back and read old letters and  
give others a chance to enter the conversation without looking for specific  
chat room X or hoping ICQ is up and running or members are about.  Just a  
thought.  Take it easy and talk at you later. 
 
Sparx 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 16:51:24 -0700 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Fractional SPD 
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Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
[....] 
> Except that somebody with 11- Activation will get an extra action over 60% 
> of the time, whereas the half point will only yield the extra action half 
> the time. (Aside: why did they make 11- be the -1 level rather than 10-?) 
 
   This is because the mathematical break point is 10, but being a 
'hero' game, the players are accorded a small bonus; the 11- roll plus 
one higher 'half-point' (half of 11- rounds up to 6-) for those cases 
where it counts.  It's just like the concept that seldom do you see an 
OAF actually rendered unuseable HALF the tim by the GM.  It's simply a 
convention of the Herioc genre.... 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 07 Sep 1997 20:07:24 -0400 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes: 
 
q> Example: Grond is fighting Ice Girl. Ice Girl creates a sheet of ice 
q> underneath Grond and he falls over. Grond forces his claws into the 
q> very rock beneath the ice, creating a handhold, and swings himself 
q> clear. But Ice Girl has already had time to flee. 
 
What is wrong with that is Seeker should be able to slide right across the 
ice with little problem, DEX machine that he is.  If you do it with 
Entangle he cannot. 
 
q> I suppose you could also do it with Gliding: Uncontrolled (optional), 
q> AoE, UAO, Ranged, No Effect vs those standing still. 
 
UAO movement powers are a Bad Thing, because it is difficult to clearly 
define a reasonably common defense or set of defenses against them. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TB" == Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> writes: 
 
TB> Umm, Rat... Change Environment doesn't _have_ different levels of 
TB> effect. 
 
Yeah, it does, though not in the way you think I am thinking. :) 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 01:59:49 +0000 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions) 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
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On  6 Sep 97 at 0:58, Stainless Steel Rat <rati> wrote: 
 
On  5 Sep 97 at 12:11, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> >>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
>  
> >> An oil slick or sheet of ice does not cause most people to fall over 
> >> every phase, not unless they are throwing caution to the wind. 
>  
> F> Really? Ever tried to fistfight on a sheet of wet ice? Care to bet  
> F> you don't fall over constantly? 
>  
> I have walked across frozen ponds and lakes and not fallen over at all. 
 
As have I. 
 
> The difference between my example and yours is that I am being cautious, 
> and you are not. 
 
Exactly. Walking cautiously across ice is not combat. You are not  
cautiously walking on ice when you are in combat, especially not  
superheroic and/ or hand to hand combat. You are moving quickly,  
even violently, often in unexpected directions, and must do so or  
suffer combat penalties. 
 
> Like any continuous AoE power, Change Environment affects one during each 
> of one's action phases.  Each phase one is not concentrating on maintaining 
> one's balance, one must make a Dexterity roll or fall down; characters with 
> Acrobatics do not need to roll.  Or, for an area that is especially slick, 
> Dexterity with a penalty or Acrobatics with none or a lesser penalty. 
 
They fall down. Thus, they lose an attack roll, a half-phase to  
stand, and are reduced to 1/2 DCV. All by a power described as having  
_at most_ minor effects upon combat. 
 
> F> Additionally, a sheet of ice has more than minor effects on cars and  
> F> especially motorcycles. 
>  
> You've never seen ice motocross, have you. :) Seriously, though, I live in 
> New England, and while icy roads are not an every day thing we have to deal 
> with them frequently enough.  If one keeps the speed down and is light on 
> the brakes, one can drive on a sheet of ice. 
 
I have driven a rear-wheel drive car with bald tires past people  
spinning four wheels with chains on them. I know how to drive on ice.  
 
A power which  reduces a vehicle or character's movement by a  
considerable amount isn't a minor power. Consider the Porsche in the  
BBB. Able to do over 140 MPH. Do you honestly think that on the same  
road it could safely do half that, if the road was a smooth, wet  
sheet of ice? 
 
That is a Drain of half the points in that car's movement. A  
significant combat effect. 
 
You make a big point about what can be done if you are slow and  
careful. However, combat, especially superheroic combat, precludes  
being slow and careful of your footing, unless you are willing to   
significantly reduce your effectiveness. I submit that a _smooth,  
wet_ sheet of ice will cause you to fall, barring special skills or  
powers, unless you take these precautions: 
 
No non-combat running. 
1/2 speed combat running. 
No wrestling, fistfights, Diving for Cover, Dodge,  or melee  
fighting. 
No acrobatics. 
1/2 DCV. 
 
If they violate these rules, they need to make a DEX roll, or suffer  
the following: 
 
Lose this phase (you can't shoot straight while falling on your ass). 
Be 1/2 DCV until next phase (prone). 
Lose 1/2 of next phase (getting up). 
 
This is not a minor effect. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 01:59:49 +0000 
Subject: Re: Vari-multi pools 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
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On  6 Sep 97 at 7:53, John Doe wrote: 
 
> I think this is a really NEAT idea!  It gives you the basic powers the world 
> sees and allows the character to really "focus" his energies to do other 
> things.  Heck, in a way this is what certain Marvel characters have done 
> when they used their "big gun" attack in extremis.  (I've kicked the comics 
> monkey for a coupla years, so excuse me if these examples are dated.)  I 
> think the Torch's Nova Blast might be a trade-in like the above, as might 
> Nova's big Nova thingy. 
 
Uh, no. The maximum size of one of these slots is the same as the  
maximum size of a power in a normal Multipower or VPP. If it was big  
enough to create the "Nova Blast" then you would just create a big  
slot. If it wasn't, you'd have to add extra power to the slot from  
outside, or make it independant. Neither of these requires the  
variability of a VPP. 
 
The purpose of my suggestion was to create a pool that allowed cosmic  
level control on some powers in a VPP, but not all. Considering the  
cost is actually fairly high for the effect, I consider it fairly  
balanced. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 01:59:50 +0000 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
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On  7 Sep 97 at 16:48, Happyelf! wrote: 
 
> At 01:17 AM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote: 
<snip> 
> > 
> >What have I been saying that you don't understand me.  I've been talking  
> >about a powergamer who had a character that could DO everything the rest of  
> >the team could do and then some, power wise and skill wise.  I've been  
> >saying how *I* disapprove of that. I've been saying I have NPCs that are  
> >sometimes more powerful than characters but not always.   
>  
> and your rationale for one of these npc's was that a player said thei pc said they were the best at something.. .  
 
No, he never said that was the _rational_ for the NPC, he simply said 
that an NPC existed, who was presently the most powerful telekinetic, 
whose power level exceeded the beginning maximum active points for an  
attack power. 
 
He never said what the rationale or purpose was for the character. He  
certainly didn't say the character existed for the purpose of being  
the best TK, and he most definitely did not say the purpose of the  
character was to outshine or be better than the PCs. 
 
<snip> 
> >I recall saying my NPCs never  
> >outshine my PCs  
>  
> apart from when you specifically design them to do so, as you SAID you did with the force-tk-guy? 
 
He said nothing of the sort. He said that a PC couldn't be the most  
powerful telekinetic because someone more powerful existed, he did  
_not_ say that they were designed to outshine the PCs. 
 
> >if anything they come to the PCs for help even if they are  
> >more powerful in SOME areas.   
>  
> yes- and those are the areas that count. You already stated your assupption that  
> 'powerful at one thing' leads to a power gamer 
 
Actually, he did not say that 'powerful at one thing' leads to a  
power gamer, he only said that a particular power gamer started by  
pushing the limits in one thing and went on from there. Not the same  
thing. 
  
> >Sound familiar?  Take it easy and talk at you  
> >later. 
> > 
>  
> yup, AT me, u sure as hell ain't listening to either of us. . .  
 
Frankly, I'd say this statement applies more to you than to him. I  
have seen him misunderstand you once or twice, and correct himself,  
but I have seen no sign that you understand him at all. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 01:59:50 +0000 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
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On  6 Sep 97 at 22:57, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> That is why I say to use Change Environment, which also happens to be the 
> one power in the book that can be used to "force" characters to make 
> characteristic rolls.  Change Environment: "fog" or "heavy rain" may 
> require one to make periodic sight perception roll to navigate. 
 
I'm beginning to see why we have been having problems with this  
thread. 
 
I have looked through my copy of the rules (BBB, first printing), and  
they say _nothing_ about forcing characters to make characteristic  
rolls. It specifically says that Change Environment "does not have  
any direct effect upon combat.  However, Change Environment can be  
used to affect Power Limitations or character Disadvantages like  
Susceptabilities." It also says (all emphasis mine), "_At the GM's  
option_, Change Environment may have _slight_ effect on combat (small  
minuses on PER rolls, OCVs, etc.), depending upon special effect and  
the _exact_ circumstances." 
 
In other words, Change Environment doesn't normally have _any_ effect  
on combat. It can affect Limitations and Susceptabilities, but  
neither one is necessary for a person to slip on oil or ice. It can  
affect charactes in a _slight_ way (it cannot force a PER roll, but  
can subtract from one, it cannot stop an attack or halve a DCV, but  
it can give you a slightly reduced OCV or DCV), _only in very  
particular circumstances. 
 
The effects of ice or a combat-effective oil slick are too great for  
the description in the book (a -2 to a roll on a repeat basis is less  
significant than "forcing" a roll on a repeat basis), and are  
certainly not limited to "exact circumstances", as the book requires. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 21:13:42 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Question on Images 
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> > 	Eh?  Touch _is_ a sense group.  Both in real life and in 
> > Champions. 
> 
> Uh, no, it isn't in Champions.  Rather deliberately wasn't made one.  Open 
> your book up and look.  The groups are Sight, Hearing, Taste/Smell, Radio, 
> Mental and Unusual. 
 
 
	Ahh, nevermind on that 'touch' per-se.  Take a look at Unusual 
however, that will hold touch quite well.  I know that it is accepted as a 
group, for purposes of targeting, in at least one book character.  Check 
out Yu-Genothrax (sp?) from Classic Organizations. 
 
 
		-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 21:54:41 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Telekinesis 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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> Yes, base TK is Visible, vs. OCV/DCV.  The biggest problem I have with TK 
> Based on ECV is that I'm not sure you can affect non-sentient targets 
> with it.  If you plan on making a character with an EGO higher than his 
> DEX, consider buying extra DEX, for TK CV only (-1) [my own estimate, 
> considering you get no adds to SPD, DCV, other OCVs, initiative, etc.]. 
 
 
	The problem with this is that adjusment powers will work in a 
totally unexpected and illogical way when it comes to Dex and Ego 
adjustments.  Also, certain combat modifiers that should or shouldn't 
affect mental will affect this CV.  You could allow the character to treat 
it as straight "ECV", but that is a kludge more trouble than it's worth. 
 
	Now, based on ECV, as written, gives us ECV vs ECV.  That's great 
for the characters who take it, as they will, in general, have higher 
ECV's then CV's, and their opponents will have lower ECV's than CV's.  If, 
however, you allow the option of ECV vs DCV, you still have that first 
advantage of higher ECV than CV, but most of your opponents will have 
_higher_ DCV's, and thus the advantage will be _less_useful_. 
 
	Now, as for whether that power can affect non-sentients, I think 
there is no problem here.  The basic advantage allows a vs regular 
defenses instead of vs EgoDef as a standard option.  Just make anything 
that takes ECV vs DCV take the vs RegDef option. 
 
	If anything, this advantage's cost should be _lowered_ to +1/2 or 
+3/4 instead of, as some say, making it an aditional advantage onto "Based 
on ECV". 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:11:43 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers 
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	[much cut] 
 
> > 
> >Please keep your hystreonics to yourself. I'm not interested in people who 
> >make a severly invalid point, then get insulted, then make a point apparently in support of an issue which it cannot possibly support, then label me and antagonist because i point this out. What you call flaming i call disagreement, i'm terribly sorry i didn't realise this list was designed for mutual admiration purposes only. 
> 
 
	I've been deleting way too many idotic messages from one with no 
clue.  So, someone, please tell me how to make a kill file in Pine. 
(First time I've needed one) 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:43:51 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer) 
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> Obviously, this all depends on the power level of the campaign; there's 
> nothing wrong with having the PCs be the world's premiere superteam, in 
> which case best of just about anything could be allowed. Of course, the 
> average Champions campaign has the PCs somewhere around the middle of the 
> range - the X-Men rather than the Avengers, so to speak. (Although the 
> X-Men themselves have gotten rather inflated in power level recently.) 
> Assuming we're talking about this power level... 
 
	This is quite what I should have mentioned.  Most, heck, all 
campaigns I have run have either been at the low-powered "street" level or 
with the characters being about average.  They were inmportant for 
defending their city and region, and sometimes saving the world, but there 
were other hero teams, perhaps more powerful, perhaps not, saving their 
own respective cities. 
 
	I'd kinda put it at about the New Warrior level, or maybe the 
Alpha Strike. 
 
 
> > 	Sure, those might work.  But strongest? 
> 
> Only if it's heavily limited. Eg: a character who had the ability to 
> channel the power of Earth's Geosphere; her upper limit on STR was _way_ 
> above anybody else, but the upper levels required enough concentration and 
> END expenditure to make them near-useless. (Of course, the amount she 
> could usefully channel increased with experience.) 
 
	Which is why I actually said that Strongest may, in fact, be 
possible.  However, any character will max out at 80 combat-effective STR. 
That's 16DCs of damage, my HTH maximum.  Some NPCs, particularly villians, 
may be able to do more (Grond).  It's a balance thing. 
 
> > Most indestructable? 
> 
> No problem at all with this one. I'd expect such a character's offensive 
> abilities to be towards the low end, but this would be pretty much 
> inevitable anyway if they're spending that much on defenses. 
 
	But I'd assume others would be near that level.  And I make sure 
that every character has some area of weakness/vulnerability.  Although, I 
can be convinced otherwise. 
 
> 
> > Most powerful elementalist? 
> 
> Sure. Heck, "elementalist" isn't exactly a standard character archetype... 
> the PC could easily be the _only_ elementalist in the campaign. 
 
	Hmmmm.  I'd have problems with this one, especially cause this may 
very well just be a subset of a magic user.  And, like you say below, 
magic users can get damned powerful. 
 
 
> > Most powerful magic user? 
> 
> This is almost definitely out - mages tend to be pretty damn powerful in 
> ths superhero genre. 
 
	Yup. 
 
> > Most powerful battle armor? 
> 
> Probably not, but it depends on how you feel super-tech compares to 
> paranormal powers. It's entirely possible that the most powerful body 
> armour is only middle-of-the-road compared to actual supers. 
 
	I'd say that powered-armour could reach up to the Iron-Man level 
and beyond.  That's enough to require tons of points spent on the various 
systems.  The PC may eventually get there, but will have to constantly 
improve and work on the battle armor. 
 
> > These aren't quite within low level characters reach -- 
> > except maybe strongest. 
> 
> Interesting - strongest is one of the last I'd allow. 
 
 
	See above, but also note that the STR could be taken with a 
limitation of "STR grants no HTH damage-for lifting purposes only". 
 
	Now, let me have a final say here on the "most powerful X" thing. 
I think it is fine if the _character_ thinks that he/she is the most 
powerful whatever.  The player just has to realize that the character may 
very well be proven wrong.  (Or not).  They don't know everything about 
the world, and when the "world's strongest man" suddenly runs into a 
rampaging Godzilla, well, he can't complain that I let Zilly have a 160 
STR compared to his 80. 
 
	And, no matter what, starting characters will be limited by the 
campaign limits.  You may think you are absolutely fastest, but perhaps 
there is another (beyond what I think would be balanced for players).  You 
might think yourself to have the best Mind Control.  But there may be 
another (beyond what I think would be . . . Well, you get the picture) 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Subject: ... Then You Might Be A Power Gamer 
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 97 09:06:49 -0400 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
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If You... 
 
  Buy Stretching with the Indirect Advantage... 
  Take the -1/4 Lim. "Not when in a vacuum" on your Colt .45's... 
  Always wondered why you couldn't put a multipower inside your EC... 
  Ever talked to your GM for more than three hours about the nuances 
    of Usable Against Others compared to Usable By Others... 
  Know exactly how many NCOMx it takes to get to Mach 2 on 10" of  
Flight... 
  Ever asked a GM what would "Not usable on even numbered days" would be  
worth,  
    and then tried to justify it's use... 
  Knowingly put the most outrageously abusive power ever on your character 
    sheet, just to hide the second most outrageously abusive power ever... 
  Consider anyone who buys a DEX of 24 to be wasteful with points... 
  Have 5 characters already written up, just in case, ... 
  Don't need a calculator to figure out the cost of a ultra slot in a 63 
     point multipower w/ 3 1/4 in Lims & 1 3/4 in advantages... 
 
... Then You Might Be A Power Gamer  
 
The popularity of Windows surged in 1995, when  | 
Microsoft began shipping Windows 95, which      |  David A. Fair 
included many innovations that the Macintosh    |  SDS International 
had introduced 10 years earlier.                |  dfair@sdslink.com 
          - Reuters, Friday, July 18, 1997      | 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 08 Sep 1997 09:32:32 -0400 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> "_At the GM's option_, Change Environment may have _slight_ effect on 
F> combat (small minuses on PER rolls, OCVs, etc.), depending upon special 
F> effect and the _exact_ circumstances." 
 
F> In other words, Change Environment doesn't normally have _any_ effect on 
F> combat. It can affect Limitations and Susceptabilities, but neither one 
F> is necessary for a person to slip on oil or ice. It can affect charactes 
F> in a _slight_ way (it cannot force a PER roll, but can subtract from 
F> one, it cannot stop an attack or halve a DCV, but it can give you a 
F> slightly reduced OCV or DCV), _only in very particular circumstances. 
 
Back up for a second. 
 
The GM will call for a Perception roll when there is a chance that a 
character may not notice something.  If Change Environment can incur minor 
penalties to Perception rolls, then that Change Environment does "force" 
the character to make a Perception roll because there is a chance he will 
not notice that something.  If the character fails his Perception roll he 
will suffer CV penalties if that something is about to attack him.  Thus, 
we have a case of Change Environment indirectly -- not directly -- having 
an effect on combat that is completely within the realm of the power. 
 
If this line of reasoning is valid, and I belive that it is, then I see no 
reason why other Characteristic rolls may be affected by Change 
Environment.  The listed "slight effects" are clearly not intended to be 
all-encompassing, after all; they are dependant upon the special effects of 
the Change Environment. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should 
                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:39:39 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: wga@pop.cwru.edu (Unverified) 
From: wga@po.cwru.edu (Will Austin) 
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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 >> At 10:13 AM 9/2/97 +0000, you wrote: 
>> >Now, should characters do something stupid, I let the dice land where 
>> >they may. But being killed or seriously maimed simply because the dice 
>> >decree it, no. I change the results. 
>>  
>> define stupid- too often it actually means- "they p*ss*d me off". . . 
>>  
> 
>	You know; that's a good point. Too many people who GM put themselves 
>on this high, undemocratic chair. Once there they ruthlessly beat down any 
>discention amoung the ranks. No viewpoint but the GM's becomes valid. 
>	How did we reach this state when the hobby comes from a country which 
>prides itself on it's claim to democratic ideals. Or even in a hobby which 
>itself proclaims cooperation over competition. 
> 
>	I find a GM needs to learn to have much more patience, and a very 
>controlled temper. 
>	Both players and GM are there for enjoyment. Most gaming groups end up 
>being more about the socializing than the RPG itself. 
>	If a player has an argument over a ruling and a GM just declares "I'm 
>the GM, my ruling stands"; the issue is NOT resolved. Ill will has just been 
>created. Both sides need to sit down and discuss it until a mutually 
>acceptable result is found. Otherwise that ill will just piles up and up until 
>it becomes personal. I can think of countless examples where friendships died 
>over things like this not being dealt with, but rather just 'pushed down'. 
>Over time they boiled up as more and more of them occured. In time the parties 
>concerned becomes hostile and look to things outside of gaming to fight over. 
 
        At the same time, depending on the issue being discussed, GM fiat 
rather than mutually acceptable debate is desired--after all, the GM  *is* 
the referee, as long as he has consistent, plausible grounds for doing so. 
 
>	Yelling down and issue never works in the long run. Gaming is not a 
battlefield where not following the >the leader will kill somebody. It's a 
social forum where all parties need to be assured they can agree and be 
>willing to resolve diferences. 
 
>	Most 'accused powergamers' are no more 'powergamers' than the witches at 
Salem were really 'witches'. The same >with 'rules-lawyers'. They're 
ussually just people with difering views with a GM who is too closed minded 
and authoratative to >listen. 
 
        I disagree--most powergamers *are* powergamers, and many 
rules-lawyers *are* rules lawyers. . .inherent in their designations is the 
concept of differing viewpoints from the GM; in these cases, the difference 
is in extremis and threatens the fabric of the gaming group. . . 
 
>	Even when someone is obviously wrong; you have to listen. Only then can 
you calmly correct them. And you just >might find it was you who was wrong. 
 
        If someone is *obviously* wrong, you don't *have* to listen. . .;>> 
 
>	If you have a player who insists on arguing every point; it's most likely 
because they feel their views are not being >heard. Sit down with the person 
and let them explain it, then explain your views. Find something you can 
agree on and work >from there. In time their argumentative nature will 
change to one which seeks to cooperate. 
 
        Uh, not necessarily. . .I can think of two players of mine who argue 
every point to see if they can get me to cave in on a decision.  They enjoy 
my games and are always badgering me to run something, but it's in their 
nature to argue very call--much like some pro atheletes. . . 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:17:06 +0000 
Subject: Re: ... Then You Might Be A Power Gamer 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 5 
 
On  8 Sep 97 at 9:06, David Fair wrote: 
 
>   Take the -1/4 Lim. "Not when in a vacuum" on your Colt .45's... 
>  
 
Actually, Colt .45s _do_ work in vacuum. But I might allow "Not  
underwater", if underwater combat was common enough. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions) 
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 08:29:31 -0700 (PDT) 
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> >  
> > >> An oil slick or sheet of ice does not cause most people to fall over 
> > >> every phase, not unless they are throwing caution to the wind. 
> >  
> > F> Really? Ever tried to fistfight on a sheet of wet ice? Care to bet  
> > F> you don't fall over constantly? 
 
> This is not a minor effect. 
 
	All of this forgets something: 
Oil or Ice aren't the only special effects behind a super-slick power. 
 
Slick from the Liberty Project comic simply made surfaces ultra-slick, or 
frictionless. If a surface has 0 friction, you have no control. 
 
	There's friction reduction, banana's, oil, ice, marbles... 
	It could even be little smurfs that grab you and throw you down. :) 
 
	To date, the best thing I've come up with is an EB with knockback 
only. Set it up area effect, continuous, uncontrolled. Give it a lim that 
says it's gets reduced via successful dex rolls. 
 
	If it exhisted, I'd suggest Entangle based on Dex. 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:40:25 +0000 
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
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X-UID: 7 
 
On  8 Sep 97 at 9:16, Brian Wong wrote: 
 
>   
> 	To me this is proof of a flaw in your GMing style. 
> I've GM'd for 15 years, with groups all over the USA, and quite a few from 
> outside it as well. 
> 	Yet I've never encountered this problem. Not once. Maybe it's because 
> I let people speak their minds. I seriously doubt I've been lucky. Especially 
> since I've taken players who I was warned in advance were trouble causers. 
> 	Often warned by other people in the very group I've handled. 
 
I have roughly the same style you describe (always listen to players,  
almost always resolve the problem before continuing), and I would  
agree with you, save that I have had a player with whom the method  
you described didn't work. 
 
Allowing him to discuss all disagreements with me during  
game time was a disaster. I should have at least told him, "My  
rulings are final", and I frankly wish I had had the nerve to tell  
him to shut up or leave. 
 
This player wasn't a "power gamer" or a "rules lawyer", in the  
traditional sense, he simply thought he was GM, and demanded that I  
give in to him whenever he thought things should be different. 
 
> 	Now, I've had people correct me countless times on a bad ruling, or 
> a rule innacuracy, or whatever. I rarely make the same mistake twice, but I 
> go in admitting I'm human and fallable. I don't see my role as a referee in 
> a sporting event; I see it as a fascilitator in a creative writing group. 
>  
> 	When I find a so called rules-lawyer; I ussually hand them a rule book 
> and ask them to spot me ahead of time. Works great. 
> 	I have the so called power gamer go over the character sheets for me. 
> Works great. 
>  
> 	As I said, peole like this are ussually this way because they feel 
> they're not being listened to. Give them a voice and the trouble goes away. 
 
As I said, I agree, save that it doesn't always work. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers 
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:16:39 -0700 (PDT) 
Cc: rook@infinex.com 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 265 
 
> > 
> >	I find a GM needs to learn to have much more patience, and a very 
> >controlled temper. 
> >	If a player has an argument over a ruling and a GM just declares "I'm 
> >the GM, my ruling stands"; the issue is NOT resolved. Ill will has just been 
> >created. Both sides need to sit down and discuss it until a mutually 
> >acceptable result is found. Otherwise that ill will just piles up and up until 
> >it becomes personal. I can think of countless examples where friendships died 
> >over things like this not being dealt with, but rather just 'pushed down'. 
> >Over time they boiled up as more and more of them occured. In time the parties 
> >concerned becomes hostile and look to things outside of gaming to fight over. 
>  
>         At the same time, depending on the issue being discussed, GM fiat 
> rather than mutually acceptable debate is desired--after all, the GM  *is* 
> the referee, as long as he has consistent, plausible grounds for doing so. 
> 
 
	This is a competative attitude that only encourages debate. Gaming 
is not football or boxing. It's a cooperative storytelling forum. Even if 
the challenge of the game is important to you; the cooperation aspect is 
still the foundation of the hobby. 
  
> >	Even when someone is obviously wrong; you have to listen. Only then can 
> you calmly correct them. And you just >might find it was you who was wrong. 
>  
>         If someone is *obviously* wrong, you don't *have* to listen. . .;>> 
> 
 
	Not listening is closed minded. It's saying I'm right and your wrong 
so shut up or put up. It only serves to cause greater trouble later on.  
	Often times, a person who seems to be 'obviously wrong' has a good 
reason for it. And even if they do end up being wrong, finding the reason 
why they thought what they thought is the only way to change their opinion 
and achieve resolution. 
 
> >     Most 'accused powergamers' are no more 'powergamers' than the witches at 
> Salem were really 'witches'. The same >with 'rules-lawyers'. They're 
> ussually just people with difering views with a GM who is too closed minded 
> and authoratative to >listen. 
>         I disagree--most powergamers *are* powergamers, and many 
> rules-lawyers *are* rules lawyers. . .inherent in their designations is the 
> concept of differing viewpoints from the GM; in these cases, the difference 
> is in extremis and threatens the fabric of the gaming group. . . 
 
> >	If you have a player who insists on arguing every point; it's most likely 
> because they feel their views are not being >heard. Sit down with the person 
> and let them explain it, then explain your views. Find something you can 
> agree on and work >from there. In time their argumentative nature will 
> change to one which seeks to cooperate. 
>  
>         Uh, not necessarily. . .I can think of two players of mine who argue 
> every point to see if they can get me to cave in on a decision.  They enjoy 
> my games and are always badgering me to run something, but it's in their 
> nature to argue very call--much like some pro atheletes. . . 
> 
  
	To me this is proof of a flaw in your GMing style. 
I've GM'd for 15 years, with groups all over the USA, and quite a few from 
outside it as well. 
	Yet I've never encountered this problem. Not once. Maybe it's because 
I let people speak their minds. I seriously doubt I've been lucky. Especially 
since I've taken players who I was warned in advance were trouble causers. 
	Often warned by other people in the very group I've handled. 
 
	Now, I've had people correct me countless times on a bad ruling, or 
a rule innacuracy, or whatever. I rarely make the same mistake twice, but I 
go in admitting I'm human and fallable. I don't see my role as a referee in 
a sporting event; I see it as a fascilitator in a creative writing group. 
 
	When I find a so called rules-lawyer; I ussually hand them a rule book 
and ask them to spot me ahead of time. Works great. 
	I have the so called power gamer go over the character sheets for me. 
Works great. 
 
	As I said, peole like this are ussually this way because they feel 
they're not being listened to. Give them a voice and the trouble goes away. 
 
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:47:41 -0500 (CDT) 
Subject: Problems with SCM's web sites 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 266 
 
 
I've forwarded this from rec.games.frp.super-heroes.... 
------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 
OK, things with Intercomm have gotten out of hand, and I'm going to be 
moving to a different web hosting service.  The new base address will 
be:  
 
http://www.mactyre.net 
 
It's going to take a little while for InterNIC to register the name 
and for the DNS servers to update, but hopefully by next Monday, 
everything will be working fine.  Knock on wood and keep your fingers 
crossed.  I'll let you all know for sure as soon as I do.  This 
certainly isn't the way I conceived of the circumstances of getting 
our own domain, though. <sigh> 
 
If anyone here is on the Hero List, could you please forward the 
message? I'd hate to spam a list I don't subscribe to.  Thank you for 
all your support and for the e-mail messages; I really appreciate it. 
And do continue to write to roger@intercomm.com, because getting a new 
ISP is going to take a little while, and Ron (the systems 
administrator who justified his actions by saying "I'm the systems 
administrator and I don't have to explain myself  to you") is still 
there.  Hopefully not by Monday, but he is for the moment. =/  
 
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre 
http://users.intercomm.com/redwolf/scm/original.html 
Online Champions Resources: PRIMUS, VIPER Net, G3, Chessmen, and more! 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 13:35:48 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Mind Control:  Single Command 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 269 
 
Ok, a quick question here.  I have always understood the ruling on Mind  
Control:  Single Command to mean that the player defined the Single Command  
when constructing the character and it could never be changed.  This is how  
I and my players have always played and it has never been questioned.  Well,  
up until last night when I had a new player with mind control: single  
command.  Of course, I could always declare it is our house rule, but I want  
the official ruling here.  He seems to think the Single Command ruling means  
he can only do, "Hit Bad Guy!"  as opposed to what he refers to as Multiple  
Commands, "Hit Bad Guy, Pick him up, throw him out the window, jump down on  
him and beat on him more."  I see this as being wrong, because it would be  
just as simple to say Single Command, "Fight Bad Guy" then you have to mess  
with all sorts of problems like is the command you gave him just one or did  
you put two into in a sly way?  Discussing this with my player for some time  
after the game, I told him that I would turn it over to the list since my  
ruling seemed unfair to him and I could see his point, but he would accept  
it if it turned out my ruling was correct.  So, could someone please clear  
matters up here.  Thanks and talk at you later. 
 
Sparx 
 
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 12:29:56 -0700 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
Subject: Re: Mind Control:  Single Command 
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Sparx asked what interpretation Mind Control: Single Command meant: 
 
I agree with Sparx. The command is picked at character creation. 
 
On the second point on how broad the command is: 
 
The broader the command, the looser the interpretation. 
 
-Mark 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:55:22 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden 
Subject: Re: Mind Control:  Single Command 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Sparx wrote: 
 
> Ok, a quick question here.  I have always understood the ruling on Mind  
> Control:  Single Command to mean that the player defined the Single Command  
> when constructing the character and it could never be changed. 
 
Yes. 
 
> up until last night when I had a new player with mind control: single  
> command.  Of course, I could always declare it is our house rule, but I want  
> the official ruling here.  He seems to think the Single Command ruling means  
> he can only do, "Hit Bad Guy!"  as opposed to what he refers to as Multiple  
> Commands, "Hit Bad Guy, Pick him up, throw him out the window, jump down on  
> him and beat on him more." 
 
No, what he's describing is the way _unmodified_ Mind Control works. If 
you want to give multiple commands, you have to make multiple attack 
rolls. 
 
(Of course, I'd be inclined to allow each command to involve more than one 
simple action; something like "Beat that guy up".) 
 
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 13:18:29 -0700 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Mind Control:  Single Command 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Sparx wrote: 
>  
> Ok, a quick question here.  I have always understood the ruling on Mind 
> Control:  Single Command to mean that the player defined the Single Command 
> when constructing the character and it could never be changed.  This is how 
> I and my players have always played and it has never been questioned.  Well, 
> up until last night when I had a new player with mind control: single 
> command.  Of course, I could always declare it is our house rule, but I want 
> the official ruling here.  He seems to think the Single Command ruling means 
> he can only do, "Hit Bad Guy!"  as opposed to what he refers to as Multiple 
> Commands, "Hit Bad Guy, Pick him up, throw him out the window, jump down on 
> him and beat on him more."  I see this as being wrong, because it would be 
> just as simple to say Single Command, "Fight Bad Guy" then you have to mess 
> with all sorts of problems like is the command you gave him just one or did 
> you put two into in a sly way?  Discussing this with my player for some time 
> after the game, I told him that I would turn it over to the list since my 
> ruling seemed unfair to him and I could see his point, but he would accept 
> it if it turned out my ruling was correct.  So, could someone please clear 
> matters up here.  Thanks and talk at you later. 
 
   Okay, I don't have my book handy, but I'm guessing your player and 
you probably tried referring to the book yourselves during your 
discussion of this subject.   
   I have always read the rule to mean "only one command ever"  I take 
the limitation to represent a mentalist with limited scope, or a 
mesmerizing power which has a predetermined effect (i.e. a power which 
conceptually is not really Mind Control, but is represented best using 
MC mechanics). 
   Being a (-1/2) limitation, it's too great a point savings to simply 
limit Mind Control to 'single-command-at-a-time', since this is a rather 
common use already; in my experience, it is not too common to have very 
complex or involved commands. 
 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:24:01 +0000 
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 14 
 
At 6:02 PM 9/6/97, Filksinger wrote: 
 
>I have been in a discussion with several others concerning the "core" 
>rules of Hero, specifically the HSR. The question concerns Drain, and I 
>was hoping to get an official answer. 
> 
>One of the participants insists that, using the HSR only (the HSA I is 
>considered "optional", and he doesn't use it), that it is impossible to 
>Drain characteristics or powers below zero. He is willing to consider, at 
>most, the possibility that continuing to Drain a power causes it to 
>recover more slowly, but he absolutely insists that you cannot render 
>someone unconscious or dead with a Drain. He claims that, since you 
>cannot buy less than 1 Body or Stun, that you cannot Drain either one to 
>zero, and certainly not to a negative. 
 
 
If he is the GM, then he certainly can take that stance. If he is a player 
in the game, then the GM should be able to choose to use HSA I, or any 
other rules he wants for draining below 0. Certainly, we always played that 
it was possible to Drain someone's STUN to below 0, to knock them out. And 
you should be able to Drain someone to 0 BODY, but BE CAREFUL with that 
one! It can get gross. 
__________________ 
 
So, according to Bruce Harlick, the people at Hero Games "always"  
considered a Drain to be capable of rendering someone unconscious or  
killing them. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 13:49:56 -0700 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 2 
 
Legionair@aol.com wrote: 
  
> In one of my current games a PC wanted to play a Daxamite (think Mon'El or 
> Superman, with only minor differences).  At first it seemed like a disaster, 
> but I had the player send me a background and personality write up first. 
>  From there I saw plenty of plot devices and ideas that I could use.  Enough 
> that it far out weighed the potential for game corruption.  On top of this, I 
> was fairly familar with the player as well and knew that he wouldn't take the 
> character too far. 
>  
> The difference here was that the character concept *ITSELF* was enough of a 
> disadvantage to balance the cost of creating the characters.  I'm not talking 
> about having 300 points in disads or having a terrible life story or anything 
> like that...  Just that the way in which the player was planning to play the 
> character would place enough limitations on the character that it would 
> balance out. 
 
   This I agree with - IF you have players who place more importance on 
roleplaying than they do on point-crunching.  Don't get me wrong; I 
think point-cost efficiency is expected and needed, but in these cases, 
it needs to trail the roleplaying aspect at least to some degree.  In my 
games, I do have a character point limit, but this is more because *I* 
don't want to have to deal with too many disadvantages - it can get 
hairy with 5 or 6 350-point characters....  But as long as they have a 
solid, interesting concept behing their creation, they can do whatever 
they can make work. 
  
> I also play fast and furious with the rules.  The way I see it, the rules 
> were designed as a framework, not a cage.  The framework is the basis from 
> which all the players and the GM view the gameworld.  Arguing over the 
> nuances of the verbage for the rules only reinforces the cage. 
>  
> The GM and the players should have an understanding in this way, so that the 
> players do trust the GM...  In other words, if I think it's dramatically 
> important to have the bad guy's flunkies surprise and overpower the PCs, then 
> they'll go along with it.  They don't go along with it because I said so, 
> just because they trust that I don't do that sort of thing lightly and 
> because the rules bend both ways.  If I cheat on behalf of the storyline then 
> I cheat equally as much on behalf of the PCs. 
 
   I also agree here, generally.  I have one reformed powergamer in my 
game, and he still will bring up mechanic- and rule-related questions 
and comments, but I will take out a couple of minutes if necessary to 
explain or clarify, but feel that it's important to keep the game moving 
so that - as previously pointed out - the other players don't lose 
interest. 
   This is particularly important if you have a gaming group that are 
NOT unanimously focussed.  My group consists of three couples (married) 
and one single.  I GM and my wife is a player, though her primary reason 
for playing is because everyone else is.  Sometimes she really gets 
caught up in the game and involved, but she can lose interest if things 
slow down for too long.  Another couple consists again of the husbang 
being at the game to GAME, and his wife there primarily because he is.  
Again, she has gotten swept up into the game on occasion, but also can 
lose interest fairly easily.  The other couple met through my game, so 
are both vested in the game, and the other player is new enough that he 
tries to be involved, but can be distracted by others who are losing 
interest... 
   Now ideally, of course, a gaming group would consist solely of 
fanatics, but in a social circle consisting largely of couples, that 
gets harder and harder.  It's not a bad situation, but it requires a 
tighter reign on keeping the game moving along quickly enough to keep 
everyone's interest.  I also believe that this dynamic still exists in 
your more 'normal' gaming group, if to a lesser degree.  If someone 
starts losing interest in the game, it's like a loose thread on a 
tapestry; if not tended to quickly, the whole thing will start to 
unravel, and your game will become a heap of loose thread lying on the 
floor.... 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 16:24:10 -0500 
From: Alex Rojas <rojasa@uthscsa.edu> 
Subject: RE: Mind Control:  Single Command 
X-Sender: rojasa@arwen.uthscsa.edu 
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Sparx wrote: 
> 
> Ok, a quick question here.  I have always understood the ruling on Mind 
> Control:  Single Command to mean that the player defined the Single Command 
> when constructing the character and it could never be changed.  This is how 
> I and my players have always played and it has never been questioned. 
 
That's the way we've always used it also.  "Freeze" replaced the old Mental 
Entangle power.  "Fall in love with me" and other 'emotions' would use this 
limitation.  One emotion, chosen when the character was created. 
 
 
Alex 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 17:06:18 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: RE: Mind Control:  Single Command 
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Thanks all.  I was pretty sure that we weren't just playing a "House Rule"  
but since we use it so little, it came into question.  Yeah, we did check  
the book, but it only says something along the lines of Mind Control which  
only allows a single command can be purchased at -1/2.  As I said, it was to  
understandings of that which caused the confusion.  I understood it to be  
only one prechosen command during creation, he saw it as only a single  
command at a time.  Both are ways of looking at it, so that is why I brought  
it here.  Thanks again and talk at you later. 
 
Sparx 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:24:40 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Mind Control:  Single Command 
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On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Mark Lemming wrote: 
 
> Sparx asked what interpretation Mind Control: Single Command meant: 
>  
> I agree with Sparx. The command is picked at character creation. 
 
This is my postion as well.  Single Command is just that: a sinlge command 
that is chosen at time of conception.  For example: 'freeze' (replacing 
the old Mental Paralaysis power)  or love potions would use this type of 
limiation. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:31:05 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Mind Control:  Single Command 
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> you put two into in a sly way?  Discussing this with my player for some time 
> after the game, I told him that I would turn it over to the list since my 
> ruling seemed unfair to him and I could see his point, but he would accept 
> it if it turned out my ruling was correct.  So, could someone please clear 
> matters up here.  Thanks and talk at you later. 
 
 
	Um, this is definately a case of a mistaken player.  Single 
command means that the mind control works with only one command -- ever. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: RE: Oil Slick 
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:52:20 -0400 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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For those interested in representing a slick surface but don't own a copy of 
Ninja Hero, here's essentially how Aaron Allston wrote up two unusual, dropped 
weapons, marbles and tetsu bishi, on page 109. 
 
Marbles:  20 STR Telekinesis, AE One Hex (+1/2), Continuous (+1), 
Uncontrolled (+1/2); Activation 14-(-1/2), 2 Recoverable Charges (-1), 
Does No Damage (-1), Only to Throw Target to Ground (-2), No Effect 
on Flying/Leaping (-1/4), IAF (-1/2), DEX Roll Cancels effect (-1/4). 
Active Cost:  90 
Real Cost:  14 
 
Tetsu Bishi:  1d6 RKA, AE One Hex (+1/2), Continuous (+1), 
Uncontrolled (+1/2); Activation 14- (-1/2), 2 Recoverable Charges (-1), 
No Effect on Flying/Leaping (-1/4), IAF (-1/2). 
Active Cost:  45 
Real Cost:  14 
 
Because marbles and tetsu bishi are supposed to be inconspicuous when dropped, 
they're treated as IAF rather than OAF. 
 
Hope this provides some help or inspiration. 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@voicenet.com 
 
 
  
  
 
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 01:07:27 -0400 
Subject: 24 DEX 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-3 
From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger) 
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Contrary to David Fair's Power Gamer, I think a 24 DEX is handy.  The 
Hero poll revealed that the average PC DEX is 23.  24 DEX goes first. 
 
 Aloha,  WillGGeiger@juno.com 
 
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 22:27:19 -0700 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com 
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers 
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Filksinger wrote: 
 
> I have roughly the same style you describe (always listen to players, 
> almost always resolve the problem before continuing), and I would 
> agree with you, save that I have had a player with whom the method 
> you described didn't work. 
> 
 
    Yeah, you're right. Nothing can ever be said to be an absolute... 
 
-- 
Rook 
Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC 
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system 
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all) 
 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at 
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html 
 
 
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 21:47:11 -0800 
From: rbezold <rbezold@nwrain.com> 
Subject: Re: MONEY...MONEY...MONEY... 
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Well, call me naive and needlessly puritanical, but I think its the root 
of all EVIL...EVIL...EVIL... pbbbt! :( 
 
Anybody who came into a game of mine with an attitude like that would be 
forced to take 15 points of wealth as a perk, just so I could take it 
away from him later.  (So there.) 
 
Robert 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 01:49:42 -0500 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: 24 DEX 
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At 01:07 AM 9/9/97 -0400, William G Geiger wrote: 
>Contrary to David Fair's Power Gamer, I think a 24 DEX is handy.  The 
>Hero poll revealed that the average PC DEX is 23.  24 DEX goes first. 
 
Which just goes to show you're (probably) not a Power Gamer.  After all, a 
26 DEX also goes first, and a REAL Power Gamer can find a way to squeeze a 
26 DEX for the same cost as the 24. :] 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
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| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 01:57:16 -0500 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Invisible to touch attack 
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At 10:49 AM 9/9/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Ever been stung by a bee?  It HURTS!  And the stinger is quite visible. 
> 
>Any dart that penetrates sufficiently to inject sufficient quantities of a 
>toxin as to be lethal is generally not going to go unnoticed. 
 
Well, to play devil's advocate, it hurts precisely because the bee IS 
injecting quantities of a potentially lethal toxin into your body.  You 
don't feel the penetration of a bee sting, but the inflammation from the poison. 
 
But on the other hand, you can feel even a mosquito bite if you're paying 
attention, so it's not like it's really "invisible" to touch, and a mosquito 
is nice enough to anesthize you before biting.  I'd still tend to say that 
one could sense the dart whether it hurt or not. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
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From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann) 
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 23:38:09 -0800 
Organization: Terminal BBS  (403)327-9731 
Subject: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions) 
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 -=> Quoting Brian Wong to Mike Lehmann <=- 
 
 BW> To date, the best thing I've come up with is an EB with knockback 
 BW> only. Set it up area effect, continuous, uncontrolled. Give it a lim 
 BW> that says it's gets reduced via successful dex rolls. 
 
 BW> If it exhisted, I'd suggest Entangle based on Dex. 
 
We do use a similar, variant rule in our local gaming, a "Reverse  
Entangle". 
 
Usually a BODY-only entangle, with each point of BODY translating to a  
-1 on a forced DEX check. It only affects the single hex, and cannot  
create a "wall". 
 
It functions much like entangle otherwise, including lasting until  
destroyed/removed (such as melting ice/dissipating oil pools), AOEs,  
etc. 
 
Comments? 
 
mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net - - - - - Justice Krewe / Enigma Watch GM 
- - - - - -  http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html - - - - - - 
 
... Necessity never made a good bargain. - Ben Franklin 
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR] 
 
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Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 18:15:54 +1000 
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer) 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au (Unverified) 
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At 07:11 AM 9/7/97 +0600, you wrote: 
>>> 
>> 
>>your talking about things players do wrong, but acting like it's a problem 
>with charactr creation. it isn't. .  
>> 
>But aren't the Players responsible for character generation?  Nowhere in the 
>entire discussion have I heard Sparx say anything about a problem with the 
>*game mechanics* of character creation. 
>If the players are causing problems during character creation because of 
>their attitudes, then it would be a problem *with the players* _and_ *with 
>character creation*.  Right? 
> 
>- Jerry 
> 
> 
 
no. If the players didn't have a problem, then there wouldn't BE a problem. 
Otherwise it's like saying that people being attacked with tyre-irons is a 
problem with attackers _and_ tyre irons, which is not a meaningful or 
constructive thing to say.  
 
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 18:17:19 +1000 
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: A Few Simple Requests... 
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At 01:10 PM 9/7/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>With the volume being generated over the whole 'Curbing the Power Gamer' 
>thread, I'd like to make a couple of simple requests: 
> 
>1.) please trim them to the absolute minimum of reposted material. Don't 
>repost fifteen lines of material and reply with a single line. 
 
there was a problem with participants in the thread misquoting myself and 
THEMself.  
Sorry if i started a trend. 
 
> 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 18:24:06 +1000 
X-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
X-Listname: Hero 
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At 07:46 AM 9/7/97 -0600, you wrote: 
> 
> 
>Jones (happyelfie) 
> 
>I think you and I are talking apples and oranges because every time I 
>mention the CHARACTER and the player's actions, you jump right into the 
>powers involved and a sort-of fakey realism test.  "Well, in a realistic 
>world, he _WOULD_ hide and snipe."  "Well, in a realistic world, he would 
>have no friggin' powers!  Duh!" 
> 
 
really? how is tk different from artilery? i think my point was well made: 
the guy was useing what he had in a way which MADE SENCE, and the gm labeled 
him a powergamer 
not because of the PLAYERS actions, but the genre. 
 
 
 
>> 
>>actually this is extremly accurate- haven't you ever heard of artilery? 
>this is how a psycic would fight, why would a normal human stand around in 
>squishing distance of a brick? 
>>it was- if you want heroic behaviour, require that all pc's have it as a 
>psyc lim.  
> 
>Extremely accurate?  Please point me to the superheroes who do this... They 
>don't.  SuperHERO game.  NOT a Wild Cards game.  Not a superhumans who kill 
>game.  Superhero game.  If I want heroic behavior, I'll play a superHERO 
>game. Duh. 
> 
 
this isn't heroic! it's STUPID! oh, i'm a virtual normal, i have to stand on 
the front lines? how is anything heroic accomplished by needless risk? you 
mean - 
"morinic golden age twonk" 
not  
"superhero" 
 
wolverine is a superhero, wolverene kills. Get over it, what you are talking 
about is  
4-color golden age pap. 
 
 
> 
>>Then you see a player wanting to play an ultra- powerful dude-  
>>bulletproof, fast, brutal, this guy is WAY more likely to suvive the 
>fights, and hence a more valid superhuman. . . . 
>Ya wohl, mein herr.  Un Uberman.  A superhuman of death.  Not a more valid 
>SUPERHERO!  Fine with me if you play killers of death and Teek ninjas but 
>don't call them superheros or use "realistic" concerns to justify them. 
>Something tells me you wince at all those "soppy" comics where the 
>good-hearted but lowered-power guys come through because of moral quality or 
>cooperation.  Image comics fan, maybe? 
> 
> 
> 
 
good- hearted but LOW POWER? try: 
 
superman 
 
captain A of the invincible shield 
 
captain atom 
 
captain marvel 
 
most low-power heros are more 'gritty', and no, i despise image. 
Please, no more of this 'points spent on powers = less roleplaying value' crud. 
 
 
 
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 18:29:07 +1000 
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: The pet NPC was (Re: Curbing the Power Gamer) 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au (Unverified) 
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At 11:33 AM 9/7/97 -0400, you wrote: 
> 
>These tensions have nothing to do with "bad players", they're human  
>nature. 
>We spend most of our live competing in one form or another, including most 
>"games".  It is highly unrealistic to expect that human beings will quit 
>competeing just because they are playing an RPG.  At best, the players  
>will 
>cooperate seeing that a group competing with the outside world has a  
>better 
>chance that an individual, kinda like life.  If you've got a group of  
>players 
>you _think_ aren't competeing with each other, your deluding yourself, or  
>they 
>are being very subtile.  But if they are human, they are competing. 
> 
 
uh-huh? how about : 
 
"if they live in america, AND they're human, they are competing" 
 
for all i know you do act like that- tho it's not likely. .  
honestly, give your players some credit! This is the old maxim about vermin- 
"if you look close and can't find them, they must be REALLY SMALL!" 
subtle, indeed! *l*  
 
 
 
 
> 
 
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 18:37:23 +1000 
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: A Few Simple Requests... 
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At 02:01 PM 9/7/97 -0400, you wrote: 
> 
> Aloha,  WillGGeiger@juno.com 
> 
>On Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:10:56 -0400 (EDT) jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron 
>Prins) writes: <snip>4.) please try to decide if you're getting anywhere 
>- if not, try to  
>>agree 
>>to disagree (I say this because the powergamer is a universal game  
>>problem - 
>>sure, it's relevant to the champs list, but the best place for the 
>>discussion is rec.games.frp.misc...) 
>  
>Or maybe off-lists entirely, sent just to the individual e-mail 
>addresses.  Most of the powergamer thread is now threadbare. 
> 
 
 
hmm, *cough* *cough* accurate, though i would suggest that the list should 
be able to discuss MORE as opposed to LESS: i dunno if i missed the point 
(post or whole list) 
but couldn't the same be said for scenario threads of all sorts? plus i seee 
hero as a game with SERIOUS potential powergamer problems, considering it's 
scope. . .  
 
 
 
 
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 18:42:32 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
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At 04:35 PM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote: 
 
>Thanks.  Finally it seems I'm understood.  This is what I mean.  That is all  
>I ever met.  It seems things have been misunderstood and arguements have  
>started from such.  I was wondering if I was muddled or not clear about my  
>meaning, but thanks for making it a bit easier to see. 
> 
>Sparx 
> 
> 
 
I suppose it hinges on the PC- i am basically opposed to, shall we say 
writing people off, no matter what their transgretions? I'ts kinda a bit 
difficult when you have a rather small pool of potential players, all of 
which you know are capable role-players. I've never met anyone who has made 
this sort of demand, though by now it is clear even to me that it is clearly 
a concept people do encounter.   
 
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 18:48:25 +1000 
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer) 
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At 12:57 PM 9/6/97 -0300, you wrote: 
>> Most powerful magic user? 
> 
>This is almost definitely out - mages tend to be pretty damn powerful in 
>ths superhero genre. 
> 
 
imagine someone who is _technically_ a powerful mage- with the champions 
equivalent of magic resistance, maybe? they'd be very effective, dispels, 
power drains, suppress, ect, but still not have much basing-power..  
 
 
 
>> These aren't quite within low level characters reach -- 
>> except maybe strongest. 
> 
>Interesting - strongest is one of the last I'd allow. 
> 
> 
 
it comes down to powers- is the pc just really strong, or do they have "ec- 
strenth powers" like flash (clap) eb (groundstrike) and so forth. . a really 
strong guy should have these effects. . . btw, has anyone seen a good 
example of the hulk, useing this sort of logic?" 
 
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 18:57:26 +1000 
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers 
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At 10:11 PM 9/7/97 -0500, you wrote: 
> 
>	I've been deleting way too many idotic messages from one with no 
>clue.  So, someone, please tell me how to make a kill file in Pine. 
>(First time I've needed one) 
> 
> 
>			-Tim Gilberg 
> 
> 
 
try plugging you ears. Or try another petition? I'd have no objection to a 
democratic booting.  
 
As already mentioned, i posted this publicly for a reason, because i didn't 
feel like wearing the whole fiasco about flaming again. I'd also suggest 
that the reason you never needed to kill someone's mail is that you've never 
had a genuine point of contention before, and hence you've had no need to 
overreact in this fasion. Yeeesss, i know the person in question isn't 
listening, and once again i will suggest that i will _not_ wear this sort of 
retort on the public list, being as it is meaningless and of no relevance to 
the game, i feel it is only my right to respond, since this guy sure had no 
qualms about doing so.  
 
 
 
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 19:04:12 +1000 
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
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At 01:59 AM 9/8/97 +0000, you wrote: 
> 
>No, he never said that was the _rational_ for the NPC, he simply said 
>that an NPC existed, who was presently the most powerful telekinetic, 
>whose power level exceeded the beginning maximum active points for an  
>attack power. 
> 
 
the npc was introduced to the thread under just such a banner.  
 
 
>He never said what the rationale or purpose was for the character. He  
>certainly didn't say the character existed for the purpose of being  
>the best TK, and he most definitely did not say the purpose of the  
>character was to outshine or be better than the PCs. 
> 
 
 
but he does. how else will that particular bunch of hyper-compeditive 
players see him? 
 
 
 
><snip> 
>> >I recall saying my NPCs never  
>> >outshine my PCs  
>>  
>> apart from when you specifically design them to do so, as you SAID you 
did with the force-tk-guy? 
> 
>He said nothing of the sort. He said that a PC couldn't be the most  
>powerful telekinetic because someone more powerful existed, he did  
>_not_ say that they were designed to outshine the PCs. 
> 
 
uh-huh? well, how's about we play "did noT!" "did SO!" for another 12 hours?  
 
 
>> >if anything they come to the PCs for help even if they are  
>> >more powerful in SOME areas.   
>>  
>> yes- and those are the areas that count. You already stated your 
assupption that  
>> 'powerful at one thing' leads to a power gamer 
> 
>Actually, he did not say that 'powerful at one thing' leads to a  
>power gamer, he only said that a particular power gamer started by  
>pushing the limits in one thing and went on from there. Not the same  
>thing. 
>  
 
he stated that his observations only dealt with his players, hence his own 
concept of powergamers is the one being disgussed.  
 
 
>> >Sound familiar?  Take it easy and talk at you  
>> >later. 
>> > 
>>  
>> yup, AT me, u sure as hell ain't listening to either of us. . .  
> 
>Frankly, I'd say this statement applies more to you than to him. I  
>have seen him misunderstand you once or twice, and correct himself,  
>but I have seen no sign that you understand him at all. 
> 
 
did noT! *l* 
 
 
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 19:16:11 +1000 
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers 
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At 09:16 AM 9/8/97 -0700, you wrote: 
>	To me this is proof of a flaw in your GMing style. 
>I've GM'd for 15 years, with groups all over the USA, and quite a few from 
>outside it as well. 
>	Yet I've never encountered this problem. Not once. Maybe it's because 
>I let people speak their minds. I seriously doubt I've been lucky. Especially 
>since I've taken players who I was warned in advance were trouble causers. 
>	Often warned by other people in the very group I've handled. 
> 
>	Now, I've had people correct me countless times on a bad ruling, or 
>a rule innacuracy, or whatever. I rarely make the same mistake twice, but I 
>go in admitting I'm human and fallable. I don't see my role as a referee in 
>a sporting event; I see it as a fascilitator in a creative writing group. 
> 
>	When I find a so called rules-lawyer; I ussually hand them a rule book 
>and ask them to spot me ahead of time. Works great. 
>	I have the so called power gamer go over the character sheets for me. 
>Works great. 
> 
>	As I said, peole like this are ussually this way because they feel 
>they're not being listened to. Give them a voice and the trouble goes away. 
> 
> 
 
 
not to stick my own dogma in here, but this was kinda why i argued the point 
at all.  
The idea of the farytale 'bad stepsisters' players who cheat, lie and be 
mean all the time is really just a cop-out (my words not his). The reason i 
ended up calling them bad players is i assumed he was playing with a roomful 
of nhillistic evil geniuses who dedicate their lives to the game, because 
all those i have played with- including some of the scum of the earth- have 
come around in the end, thanks to good gm-player relationship. Hence i 
object to a non-anecdotal statement which bases it's logic 
on the machinations of a bunch of 'evil' players, because frankly no-one 
playing rpg's is that bad- they're all out playing nintendo *eg*  
 
 
 
"you got a few more deamons tucked away in there? 'cause right now i don't 
stand to make bus fare." 
 
happy:->~elf 
 
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 19:23:26 +1000 
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: GM's Corner - Pointers 
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At 03:40 PM 9/8/97 +0000, you wrote: 
>On  8 Sep 97 at 9:16, Brian Wong wrote: 
> 
>>   
>> 	To me this is proof of a flaw in your GMing style. 
>> I've GM'd for 15 years, with groups all over the USA, and quite a few from 
>> outside it as well. 
>> 	Yet I've never encountered this problem. Not once. Maybe it's because 
>> I let people speak their minds. I seriously doubt I've been lucky. Especially 
>> since I've taken players who I was warned in advance were trouble causers. 
>> 	Often warned by other people in the very group I've handled. 
> 
>I have roughly the same style you describe (always listen to players,  
>almost always resolve the problem before continuing), and I would  
>agree with you, save that I have had a player with whom the method  
>you described didn't work. 
> 
>Allowing him to discuss all disagreements with me during  
>game time was a disaster. I should have at least told him, "My  
>rulings are final", and I frankly wish I had had the nerve to tell  
>him to shut up or leave. 
> 
 <snip> 
 
>As I said, I agree, save that it doesn't always work. 
> 
>Filksinger 
>"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
> 
 
this IS a valid point, but i can't help thinking that maybe a little lip 
from you earlier on would have settled the player down. I suppose this seems 
contrary to what is being suggested, but i think everybody agrees that a 
firm habd has it's uses, though typically it's just as hard figuring _when_ 
to use it. . .  
 
 
"you got a few more daemons tucked away in there? 'cause right now i don't 
stand to make bus fare." 
 
happy:->~elf 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 15:28:55 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Extradimensional Bases 
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Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>At 07:15 PM 9/4/97 -0400, William G Geiger wrote: 
>   [Switched around to make the order of things correct] 
>>On Thu, 4 Sep 1997 17:48:10 -0400 (EDT) Eric Burns 
>><burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> writes: 
>>>I was wondering how one might construct an extradimensional base. 
>>>For example, Dr. Aether can teleport by moving through a small pocket 
>>>dimension.  He can also transport himself directly into this pocket 
>>>dimension, which is his base (where he keeps his scientific equipment 
>>>and such).  How would I build this base (what levels of location and 
>>>visibility would be necessary), and how could I make certain that Dr. 
>>>Aether could transport to his base no matter where he is? 
>>A Few Costs for Base in Pocket Universe 
>> 
>>10  Location: Distant 
>>25  Modifier: (Extradimensional)Space 
>>  1  Memorized location for teleport (your PC pays for this directly, not 
>>a Base item) 
> 
>   On that last item, I don't think you'd need the memorized location.  Just 
>an XDM with the Dimension defined as Dr. Aether's base should do the trick. 
>   And I think I'd add 5 more points to go from outer space to 
>extradimensional space; after all, it's harder to be attacked by space aliens. 
 
Hmm...  Well, I think that may be campaign dependent.  There are no space 
aliens in my current campaign, but there are a honking lot of 
extradimensional demons. 
 
Also, you all seem to be in agreement that it should be Distant.  But if the 
character who owns it has XDM, so he can get back to the city instantly, is 
this really accurate?  The cost for distance seems to be to keep people away 
from the base...  how many other people have XDM?  It might cost more... 
but you seemed to cover that with the 5 extra points. 
Keep in mind Dr. Aether is blowing points on just being able to travel 
there.  I, personally, would try and cut him a break, especially if it were 
in conception.  YMMV. 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 15:41:39 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Sense Group: Touch? 
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        There are inherent problems with incorporating this as a true Sense 
Group.  I believe this is why it wasn't thrown in the rules.  As someone 
else posted, "can of carnivorous worms."  Indeed. 
        First, looking at Images.  It would have to be clear that it *would 
not* create "solid images."  I don't know if anyone's reading JLA right now. 
The "evil JLA" they fought in ish #11 were described as "photo-plastic hard 
light" and "solid light images."  Which is not what Images (the Power) would 
give you.  It may, as someone else posted, cause *apparent* temperature 
increases/decreases, change the texture of material already there, etc.  But 
the GM would have to have a *tiiiight* rein on this. 
        Flash v. Touch.  Agghhh!  This would wig me out.  Imagine: Touch is 
the sense we are most familiar with.  A cool breeze, the way our clothes 
feel on our body, the pressure on the bottoms of our feet due to our 
weight...  and now all these sensations are *gone* (for about 6-12 seconds) 
because we got hit by Dr. Flash's Uncomfortably Numb Ray.  The worst for 
*me* would be not being able to feel the ground...  if I was blinded as 
well, I'd really be gone (Psych Lim: Fear of Heights). 
        One thing I do like tho, is that, with Discriminatory, you'd be able 
to read print with your fingertips, ala Daredevil. 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 15:46:19 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Costs END to turn off (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate 
    in Cha 
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Bob Greenwade wrote: 
<this was someone else's> 
>>>Growth, Shrinking, Desolid, Invis, Force Field, Damage Shield, Stretching 
>>>Density Increase, Flight, Tunneling, Shape Change, Telepathy, etc... 
>>> 
>>> All other these have in genre examples where the hero has to 
>>>concentrate or pay energy to not be under their effects. 
>>> One well known example is/was Kitty Pride of X-Men. She was desolid 
>>>unless she willed herself solid. 
> 
>   I know this is someone else's, but it's hard to let pass:  when I was 
>reading X-Men Kitty (aka Sprite aka Arial aka Shadowcat) was normally solid, 
>but turned Desolid.  I don't know if this has changed, though. 
 
For awhile, at least, she always had it on.  Now, I think it's default off. 
It may or may not cost *any* END now, and she can turn other people Desolid 
as well.  Oh, and she can glide when she's real light. 
That's a lot o' XP earned. 
 
- Jerry 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:25:56 +0000 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
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On  9 Sep 97 at 19:04, happyelf! wrote: 
 
> At 01:59 AM 9/8/97 +0000, you wrote: 
> > 
> >No, he never said that was the _rational_ for the NPC, 
<snip> 
>  
> the npc was introduced to the thread under just such a banner.  
 
I can see where you got that idea. His original post was written in  
such a way that you could easily interpret it that way. I didn't, but  
it is easily understandable. However, it did not actually _say_ that. 
 
<snip> 
>  
> but he does. how else will that particular bunch of hyper-compeditive 
> players see him? 
  
I haven't seen him indicating that his players are  
"hyper-competitive". The players he describes are fairly normal,  
standard players, from the sounds of it. 
 
If I create a campaign, I populate it with heroes and villains before  
the PCs ever arrive. So, before I start, I already have a most  
powerful X, whatever X is. Most powerful X may be very powerful, or  
he may be mildly powerful, but he exists. 
 
If a player wants to be the most powerful X, and the present one  
exceeds the campaign maximums for _beginning_ players, then he will  
either have to start out lower and build his way up, _or_  give me a  
good reason for allowing him to violate the maximum. There's nothing  
wrong with that. 
 
<snip> 
> >He said nothing of the sort. He said that a PC couldn't be the most  
> >powerful telekinetic because someone more powerful existed, he did  
> >_not_ say that they were designed to outshine the PCs. 
> > 
>  
> uh-huh? well, how's about we play "did noT!" "did SO!" for another 12 hours?  
  
He has repeatedly stated that that was not the purpose of the  
character. In fact did the players even know about the character.  
If they don't even know he exists, he can't outshine them. If one of  
the players decided to build up his character in telekinesis, he  
might well surpass the NPC without even knowing he ever existed. 
  
 
> >Actually, he did not say that 'powerful at one thing' leads to a  
> >power gamer, he only said that a particular power gamer started by  
> >pushing the limits in one thing and went on from there. Not the same  
> >thing. 
> >  
>  
> he stated that his observations only dealt with his players, hence his own 
> concept of powergamers is the one being disgussed.  
 
Of course. His concept of powergamers is the one being discussed.  
Since he a) did not say that the most powerful at one thing  
automatically makes a powergamer, and b) has repeatedly said that  
this is not the case, then why insist upon arguing against a  
position that isn't his? 
 
He said that powergamers often start out as best at A, then goes on  
to find out what the other players are best at, and then tries to  
outshine them as well. This is not the same as saying that starting  
out as the best at A _leads to_ trying to beat out the other players. 
 
Look. Even if he had said that, why continue to present that as his  
position when he has repeatedly stated that is not what he meant to  
say, and that it is a position that he does not support?  
 
> >Frankly, I'd say this statement applies more to you than to him. I  
> >have seen him misunderstand you once or twice, and correct himself,  
> >but I have seen no sign that you understand him at all. 
> > 
>  
> did noT! *l* 
 
That's what I said. Thank you for agreeing with me. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 17:14:06 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Vehicles and bases 
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Chris Lynch wrote: 
>Maybe I have a mental block, maybe I just can't find this in the rule book 
>or perhaps (Gasp...) it has never been written down. 
> 
>Will someone please remind me what happens (or at least what they do) when 
>a base or vehicle gets destroyed? It is a case of independance and the 
>points are just lost... or will the base/vehicle "rise again" for the next 
>adventure? 
> 
>Apologies for being blatantly dull but none of my PC's have ever had a base 
>or vehicle (they are prefer fly by night characters.. and who can blame 
>them even with a SPD 12 dusting must still be a bore) 
> 
Well, Bases and Vehicles date back from 1982, with the _Champions II_ book. 
Under Bases, _General Notes_ (p. 30, which includes the Goodman School of 
Cost Effectiveness column on "END Users Anonymous"), it states that "Bases 
may be repaired or modified at the rate of 1 pt. modified or repaired per 
day.  The time required may be halved for every 5 points spent that are not 
used toward anything else.  Yep, those 5 points are gone." 
 
In the "Campaigning" section of _Champions III_ (c 1984), under Agencies: 
Rebuilding, "When the bases or equipment belonging to agencies are 
destroyed, they can be 'rebuilt' at the rate of 1 point per day.  That is, 
it doesn't cost anything extra to rebuild, it just takes time."  It goes on 
to say that a more "realistic" time frame is 1pt/week.  Also, you can 
"recruit" or replace lost agents at the same rate, but you have to choose 
between the two. 
 
Under Vehicles, _Vehicle Damage_ (p.48, which has the Goodman column on 
Levels), Champs II states, "When the vehicle has taken twice its total BODY 
it falls apart."  This also seems to be supported in the current rules (BBB). 
 
In the current rules, however, it says *nothing* (AFAIK, or can find) about 
whether these are independent or not.  It does compare them to other 
equipment, noting that you would simply buy them with money in a Heroic 
campaign, but must spent points in a Superheroic one. 
 
Now, having said all this, here's an interpretation.  I would probably allow 
*up to* 1 pt/day rebuilt, but this would depend on roleplaying, "realistic" 
comic book time put into the actions, etc.  For example, if the Galactic 
League of Superheroes went off to fight an alien menace in the depths of 
space for several weeks (right after their base was partially eaten by 
Gamora), and forgot to hire the contractors (who might not even work on it 
while the heroes weren't there, for fear of being eaten by a giant flying 
turtle), their base would still be partially eaten when they returned. 
 
This seems to fit with the spirit of the old rules, *and* the way I 
interpret the Focus Limitation.  Sure, you paid points for it, but this game 
is about roleplaying situations.  I have taken away Foci for more than one 
session before, for roleplaying and to make the hero overcome his handicap. 
MHO, YMMV. 
 
- Jerry 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Date: 09 Sep 1997 08:16:58 -0400 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "LC" == Len Carpenter <redlion@voicenet.com> writes: 
 
LC> For those interested in representing a slick surface but don't own a 
LC> copy of Ninja Hero, here's essentially how Aaron Allston wrote up two 
LC> unusual, dropped weapons, marbles and tetsu bishi, on page 109. 
 
That works fine in a campaign where there is a Strength cap; simply buy 
more TK than that and you have something that works.  In a superheroic 
campaign, however, it becomes hideously expensive to make this work.  The 
Hulk stepping on some marbles *should* fall over; but he will shrug off 20 
STR TK without blinking.  100 STR TK is the level you need to be reliable, 
but now you are looking at a 450 Active Point power, with a real cost of 
around 70. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "ML" == Mike Lehmann <mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net> writes: 
 
ML> Usually a BODY-only entangle, with each point of BODY translating to a 
ML> -1 on a forced DEX check. It only affects the single hex, and cannot 
ML> create a "wall". 
 
So, how does one create a slippery surface with no DEX roll penalty, which 
is the norm for "normal" slippery surfaces? 
 
An oil spill or a coating of ice/snow on the ground does not have 
significant Body; what Body it has is the ground underneath.  So I do not 
believe that Entangle, even in variation, is a good power to use as a basis 
for this. 
 
Time for some lateral thinking: use Images as a guideline for building a 
new power.  Why?  Why not.  The mechanics -- not SFX! -- are closest to 
what seems to be desired.  10 points buys you a 1 Hex "slick" area; anyone 
entering it must make a Dexterity roll.  10 points buys you a cumulative -1 
penalty to that roll.  Increasing the area follows the standard +1/4=2x 
progression. 
 
Characters with the Acrobatics skill are much better at keeping their 
balance than those without.  Such characters may use their Acrobatics skill 
instead of Dexterty to retain their footing, with a +5 bonus to their 
rolls. 
 
 
Perversely, before you start adding penalties, the cost is the same as 
Change Environment, and has pretty much exactly the same effect. 
 
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Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:37:04 -0400 
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions) 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 3-5 
From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger) 
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Here's another idea, for those, myself included, who tend to prefer not 
creating new Powers, for the ice or oil slick; 2d6 Minor Transformation, 
thin layer of air to <ice/oil> slick, 2" radius (7 hexes), 40 Active 
Points.  Now you can consider Lims. such as Charges and No Range. 
 
 Aloha,  WillGGeiger@juno.com 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 09:16:02 -0500 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@emerald.omg.org.omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@emerald.omg.org.omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@emerald.omg.org.omg.org 
 
At 11:42 AM 9/9/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> Reality check:  Hero hasn't printed *anything* to make money.  If they 
> had, I've little doubt that they would've given up long ago and 
> concentrated on their *real* jobs, and the whole Hero System would be a 
> fond memory. 
 
Return reality check: if Hero didn't give two bits about the money, they 
wouldn't have bothered cashiering the HERO system for one they feel can 
bring in a bigger market (Fuzion). Arguably, the HERO system IS just a fond 
memory. 
 
>   RPG publishing is not, on the whole, a big money-making venture for 
>anyone (that's notwithstanding T$R, of course). 
 
You don't have to make big money to make money.  The question isn't whether 
HSAs rake in the dough as whether it raked in more dough than not doing them. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 09:16:05 -0500 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Vehicles and bases 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@emerald.omg.org.omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@emerald.omg.org.omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@emerald.omg.org.omg.org 
 
At 07:59 PM 9/10/97 +0100, Chris Lynch wrote: 
>Maybe I have a mental block, maybe I just can't find this in the rule book 
>or perhaps (Gasp...) it has never been written down. 
> 
>Will someone please remind me what happens (or at least what they do) when 
>a base or vehicle gets destroyed? It is a case of independance and the 
>points are just lost... or will the base/vehicle "rise again" for the next 
>adventure? 
 
Depends on your GM's philosophy.  The phrasing of the rules for Perquisites 
implies strongly that Perks can be both gained and lost during play 
REGARDLESS of points.  Which is to say that if the base or vehicle (being 
perks) are destroyed, they're just plain gone (like an Independent focus), 
but on the other hand the characters can reestablish these perks (or 
entirely different bases/vehicles) simply via roleplaying without points. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 09 Sep 1997 10:47:22 -0400 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "CL" == Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> writes: 
 
CL> This seems an over complicated way of saying "Use martial throw with 
CL> the Ranged advantage" 
 
Now you are dealing with attacker's OCV vs. defender's DCV, which is even 
worse than STR vs. STR, not to mention the fact that putting Advantages on 
Skills is not a good idea to begin with. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Invisible to touch attack 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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>>>>> "CL" == Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> writes: 
 
CL> How about a poisoned dart? 
CL> This would be a RKA with time delay and invisible to touch and maybe 
CL> sight. 
 
CL> The vicitim gets stung, doesn't notice, 
 
Ever been stung by a bee?  It HURTS!  And the stinger is quite visible. 
 
Any dart that penetrates sufficiently to inject sufficient quantities of a 
toxin as to be lethal is generally not going to go unnoticed. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 21:01:38 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Extradimensional Bases 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
The esteemed Mr. Greenwade wrote: 
>At 03:28 PM 9/9/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>   I'd go along with that YMMV.  OTOH, the XDM could be held by the base 
>itself, at least if it was a Gate (and possibly otherwise) 
> 
ooo...  hmm...  Um, but how would you use that Gate to get to the base? 
(Personally, I'm not familiar with the *exact* mechanics of the Gate, I 
don't own Mystic Masters.)  I assume it would be very similar to the old JLA 
satelite, with the teleporters, right? 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:11:10 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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>At 01:59 AM 9/8/97 +0000, you wrote: 
>> 
>>No, he never said that was the _rational_ for the NPC, he simply said 
>>that an NPC existed, who was presently the most powerful telekinetic, 
>>whose power level exceeded the beginning maximum active points for an  
>>attack power. 
>> 
> 
>the npc was introduced to the thread under just such a banner.  
 
The following is the quote from the exact time.  I admit it does sound at  
the beginning like I mean this is a final statement, but later on I also  
state that it is possible for a character to grow and surpass.  At the time  
of this statement, I meant there could be no STARTING character that was a  
more powerful TK, here we go, just so you can read it, clipped and copied,  
no alterations.  Do keep in mind my justifications later.  I'm not saying  
everything I've said since this statement is null and void, I just want you  
to point out to me where it says I built this character to make a PC feel  
inferior, because, well, I don't see it. 
 
((START)) 
>At 11:25 AM 9/2/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>> 
>>Yes, this is universally true, but so is the nature of the power gamer in  
>>Champions.  It is a game that seems to attract the power gamer due to the  
>>fact that it is possible to build all sorts of characters and it is possible  
>>to dump all sorts of points into one or two major areas.  This is the job of  
>>the GM to either put a stop to that or if that doesn't work, do as I do and  
>>design the character for the power gamer based on his description.  Usually,  
>>I get, "That isn't as powerful as I wanted it to be."  I just smile and  
>>explain to the player that it is as powerful as *I* wanted it to be.   
>> 
> 
>so jean grey can be the most powerful tK on the planet but a PC can't? 
 
Exactly.  In my campaign I already have the most powerful TK as a NPC, if a  
player comes to me and tells me I want to be the MOST powerful TK they  
better have a good reason for surpassing the NPC. 
 
Think of it this way, say you were in my game.  You were playing the average  
character that you designed because I knew you weren't a power gamer.  Now I  
decide because the players have talked me into it to let someone surpass  
this TK NPC.  All of a sudden the rest of the team reaches near uselessness  
because Mr. Power Gamer is the most powerful TK, not to mention knowing the  
power gamers I have ran with, cover every skill the team has and then some  
and normally better then the person who has just one or two of the skills.   
This is the point where I as the GM am to say NO.  So Mr. Power Gamer goes  
back home and the next week comes back with another character.  This time he  
only has familiarities in the skills and his TK is even more powerful  
because he had the points to do it.  I say NO again, he scratches out some  
stuff and adds the points to his TK.  Now I say NO to the TK, he goes back  
home.  Meanwhile, the rest of my players are frustrated playing with him and  
frustrated wasting game time because this guy is a power gamer.  If  I would  
have stopped it and said, "Ok, give me your character sheet, I'll adapt him  
to the right level for next game."  The trouble will be done and over with.   
He might not be happy, but the majority of the players will be including  
myself.  I will state that this is not an exaggeration.  I have had this  
happen on more than one occasion (way to many than I can say).  Simply  
asking the player not to play does not work since he is friends with half  
the group and they want him there, just not his characters.  I have had more  
than one player do it.  I try to let players design there own characters and  
give them that freedom, but there comes a point where I pull the plug on it.  
 Ok, so I might have rambled on a bit here.  My point is, exactly.  Jean  
Grey can be the most powerful TK and the PC can not unless of course I OK  
it.  If a player sits down and gives me an origin saying I'm the most  
powerful TK on the planet, without ever telling me before hand then we have  
to talk.  Or of course, I just prove him wrong :) 
 
Sparx 
 
((END)) 
 
Take it easy and talk at you later. 
 
Sparx 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:36:58 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: gumball@mail.teleport.com 
From: Gumball <gumball@teleport.com> 
Subject: Re: Invisible to touch attack 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 44 
 
>CL> How about a poisoned dart? 
>CL> This would be a RKA with time delay and invisible to touch and maybe 
>CL> sight. 
> 
>CL> The vicitim gets stung, doesn't notice, 
> 
>Ever been stung by a bee?  It HURTS!  And the stinger is quite visible. 
> 
>Any dart that penetrates sufficiently to inject sufficient quantities of a 
>toxin as to be lethal is generally not going to go unnoticed. 
> 
 
How about an Armour Piercing mono-molecular tip with an anesthetic agent? 
Ever been cut by an extremely sharp knife and not known it? Same principle. 
 
Brian Hunt (Elemento) 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:12:16 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: gumball@mail.teleport.com 
From: Gumball <gumball@teleport.com> 
Subject: Re: Invisible to touch attack 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 09:36 AM 9/9/97 -0700, you wrote: 
>CL> How about a poisoned dart? 
>CL> This would be a RKA with time delay and invisible to touch and maybe 
>CL> sight. 
> 
>CL> The vicitim gets stung, doesn't notice, 
> 
>Ever been stung by a bee?  It HURTS!  And the stinger is quite visible. 
> 
>Any dart that penetrates sufficiently to inject sufficient quantities of a 
>toxin as to be lethal is generally not going to go unnoticed. 
> 
 
How about an Armour Piercing mono-molecular tip with an anesthetic agent? 
Ever been cut by an extremely sharp knife and not known it? Same principle. 
 
Brian Hunt (Elemento) 
 
Or how about an energy weapon that uses it's beam as a delivery system. If 
the beam gets through (force field, armor, etc.) for a certain amount of 
damage the encased dart is delivered. Perhaps one would need to make their 
to hit roll by half for the dart to be delivered, otherwise the beam hit and 
did damage but the crucial second needed to hit with the dart didn't happen. 
Force field hadn't been taken down sufficiently, the target moved out of the 
beam at the crucial second, whatever. 
 
B.H. 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 12:24:44 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>He never said what the rationale or purpose was for the character. He  
>>certainly didn't say the character existed for the purpose of being  
>>the best TK, and he most definitely did not say the purpose of the  
>>character was to outshine or be better than the PCs. 
>> 
> 
> 
>but he does. how else will that particular bunch of hyper-compeditive 
>players see him? 
 
Well, they haven't seen him.  You seem to keep missing that point, don't  
you?  They haven't even heard about him.  Trying to quote you directly here,  
but try to keep up with the arguement.  He is a NPC that has yet in over 10  
years of gaming entered the lives of the heroes.  He is there as a part of  
the backdrop for the world and Universe I have created and call my campaign.  
 Perhaps, when I get some less competitive players he will make an appearance. 
 
> 
> 
> 
>><snip> 
>>> >I recall saying my NPCs never  
>>> >outshine my PCs  
>>>  
>>> apart from when you specifically design them to do so, as you SAID you 
>did with the force-tk-guy? 
>> 
>>He said nothing of the sort. He said that a PC couldn't be the most  
>>powerful telekinetic because someone more powerful existed, he did  
>>_not_ say that they were designed to outshine the PCs. 
>> 
> 
>uh-huh? well, how's about we play "did noT!" "did SO!" for another 12 hours?  
 
So what you are telling me here is when I say, something it is denial, or  
misunderstanding, or I'm back tracking on myself, or losing track of the  
arguement right?  But when someone points things out to you, it is just a  
childish game.  I see.  And to think I've been wasting my time arguing with  
someone with this attitude.  You were never wrong from the beginning in your  
mind and you never were going to be proven wrong.  Quick, 2 +  2 is 4, prove  
it wrong, because after all, I did say it and we can't agree on anything  
yet.  He is saying I never said those things because I NEVER did say those  
things.  And he isn't the only one who has a grasp on what I've been saying  
during this thread, so please re-examine my arguments and prove to me that I  
said things I never said.  But then again you could reword anything you like  
to make it sound like I did can't you?  Until you give me some personal  
information on me and my players, I'd like if you would quit telling me what  
I've said, done, think, implied, or do and likewise with my players.  I have  
enough problems already without someone telling me what I'm thinking :) 
 
>>> >if anything they come to the PCs for help even if they are  
>>> >more powerful in SOME areas.   
>>>  
>>> yes- and those are the areas that count. You already stated your 
>assupption that  
>>> 'powerful at one thing' leads to a power gamer 
>> 
>>Actually, he did not say that 'powerful at one thing' leads to a  
>>power gamer, he only said that a particular power gamer started by  
>>pushing the limits in one thing and went on from there. Not the same  
>>thing. 
>>  
> 
>he stated that his observations only dealt with his players, hence his own 
>concept of powergamers is the one being disgussed.  
 
And in case you missed again, (gee I seem to be repeating that a lot) I  
never came up with the label power gamer for any of my players, it was when  
4 - 6 other players came to me individually and complained about one players  
character being a power gamer or too powerful or out of balance with the  
game that gave me the concept of what a power gamer is.  I didn't label  
people power gamers with a random roll of a dice. 
 
Sparx 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:42:11 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: 24 DEX 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:49 AM 9/9/97 -0500, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>At 01:07 AM 9/9/97 -0400, William G Geiger wrote: 
>>Contrary to David Fair's Power Gamer, I think a 24 DEX is handy.  The 
>>Hero poll revealed that the average PC DEX is 23.  24 DEX goes first. 
> 
>Which just goes to show you're (probably) not a Power Gamer.  After all, a 
>26 DEX also goes first, and a REAL Power Gamer can find a way to squeeze a 
>26 DEX for the same cost as the 24. :] 
 
   Wimps. 
   You want Powergaming?  Come face my 38 DEX!!!   ;-] 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:42:12 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Costs END to turn off (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate 
   in Cha 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:40 PM 9/4/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>Brian Wong wrote: 
>>>  
>>> >One sort of power that isn't intrinsically in the rules is  
>>> >a power that costs END to turn it OFF. 
>>>  
>>> 
>> Or how about costs End to not turn on. 
> 
>I think you're talking about the same thing... 
 
   Somehow I missed the earlier parts of this thread (not surprising, with 
the problems my modem's been having; that's why I'm doing this HUGE packet 
from the Library today). 
   However, as a House Rule, I've allowed characters to have "Always On" 
without necessarily having to take "Zero END Persistent."  This represents 
the Power that has to be turned off at an END cost. 
 
>>Growth, Shrinking, Desolid, Invis, Force Field, Damage Shield, Stretching 
>>Density Increase, Flight, Tunneling, Shape Change, Telepathy, etc... 
>> 
>> All other these have in genre examples where the hero has to 
>>concentrate or pay energy to not be under their effects. 
>> One well known example is/was Kitty Pride of X-Men. She was desolid 
>>unless she willed herself solid. 
 
   I know this is someone else's, but it's hard to let pass:  when I was 
reading X-Men Kitty (aka Sprite aka Arial aka Shadowcat) was normally solid, 
but turned Desolid.  I don't know if this has changed, though. 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:42:14 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:39 AM 9/4/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>>>>> "GH" == Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> writes: 
> 
>GH> If they didn't like the rules, why did they resurrect them for HSA 1?  
> 
>Why did Hero print the HSA1 at all?  To make money. 
 
   Reality check:  Hero hasn't printed *anything* to make money.  If they 
had, I've little doubt that they would've given up long ago and concentrated 
on their *real* jobs, and the whole Hero System would be a fond memory. 
   RPG publishing is not, on the whole, a big money-making venture for 
anyone (that's notwithstanding T$R, of course). 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:42:15 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Extradimensional Bases 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:15 PM 9/4/97 -0400, William G Geiger wrote: 
   [Switched around to make the order of things correct] 
>On Thu, 4 Sep 1997 17:48:10 -0400 (EDT) Eric Burns 
><burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> writes: 
>>I was wondering how one might construct an extradimensional base. 
>>For example, Dr. Aether can teleport by moving through a small pocket 
>>dimension.  He can also transport himself directly into this pocket 
>>dimension, which is his base (where he keeps his scientific equipment 
>>and such).  How would I build this base (what levels of location and 
>>visibility would be necessary), and how could I make certain that Dr. 
>>Aether could transport to his base no matter where he is? 
>A Few Costs for Base in Pocket Universe 
> 
>10  Location: Distant 
>25  Modifier: (Extradimensional)Space 
>  1  Memorized location for teleport (your PC pays for this directly, not 
>a Base item) 
 
   On that last item, I don't think you'd need the memorized location.  Just 
an XDM with the Dimension defined as Dr. Aether's base should do the trick. 
   And I think I'd add 5 more points to go from outer space to 
extradimensional space; after all, it's harder to be attacked by space aliens. 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:42:26 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Invisible to touch attack 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:07 PM 9/9/97 +0100, Chris Lynch wrote: 
>How about a poisoned dart? 
>This would be a RKA with time delay and invisible to touch and maybe 
>sight. 
> 
>The vicitim gets stung, doesn't notice, then drops dead some (weeks/months/y 
>ears) later... and nobody knows why. 
> 
>TTFN from Chris! 
>http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk  
 
   I dunno if I'd make it invisible to touch; those things can really sting! 
   But it's an interesting idea nonetheless. 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:42:28 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Is there a need for SPD? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:09 AM 9/3/97 -0500, Earl Kwallek wrote: 
>  Which is why I give people desirable ranges for all important 
>stats/abilities. For example: 
> *Note: it is allowed to exceed these ranges, with corresponding 
> weaknesses in other areas.... 
> 
> 
> Attacks  50-75 active pts 60 Avg 
> Defense  20-45 PD/ED  30 Avg 
> r Defense  10-45   15 Avg for Non-Bricks 
> 
> DEX   18-28   23 Avg 
> SPD   4-6    5 Avg 
 
   I have a handout with the same type of information, but with different 
ranges for different character types.  Interestingly, even though none of my 
players have seen this thing yet, everyone falls well into that range. 
   I think I've just been blessed with really cool players.  (Now if only I 
can get it all together....) 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:42:29 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Mind Control:  Single Command 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:35 PM 9/8/97 -0500, Sparx wrote: 
>Ok, a quick question here.  I have always understood the ruling on Mind  
>Control:  Single Command to mean that the player defined the Single Command  
>when constructing the character and it could never be changed.  This is how  
>I and my players have always played and it has never been questioned.  Well,  
>up until last night when I had a new player with mind control: single  
>command.  Of course, I could always declare it is our house rule, but I want  
>the official ruling here.  He seems to think the Single Command ruling means  
>he can only do, "Hit Bad Guy!"  as opposed to what he refers to as Multiple  
>Commands, "Hit Bad Guy, Pick him up, throw him out the window, jump down on  
>him and beat on him more."  I see this as being wrong, because it would be  
>just as simple to say Single Command, "Fight Bad Guy" then you have to mess  
>with all sorts of problems like is the command you gave him just one or did  
>you put two into in a sly way?  Discussing this with my player for some time  
>after the game, I told him that I would turn it over to the list since my  
>ruling seemed unfair to him and I could see his point, but he would accept  
>it if it turned out my ruling was correct.  So, could someone please clear  
>matters up here.  Thanks and talk at you later. 
 
   Your ruling is indeed correct.  The wording in the HSR is indeed a little 
vague, but *all* of the published characters with this Limitation have the 
command defined when the Power purchased. 
   What your player wanted to do was get a Limitation for the way Mind 
Control is supposed to work by default.  (If a player tried to give Multiple 
Commands for a Mind Control in my game, I'd call for a Roll with each!) 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:42:30 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Question on Images 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:35 PM 9/4/97 -0500, Devan wrote: 
>I have a question concerning the Images power.  I am toying with the idea of 
>creating a character who can manipulate Images, and would like to be able to 
>affect the 'touch' sense group.  Is this permissible? 
 
   Touch is the Neglected Sense in the Hero System.  Almost nothing is given 
regarding the sense of Touch, possibly because the designers just forgot 
about it, or possibly because they didn't want to open a can of carniverous 
worms. 
 
>The book states that Images "...cannot cause any physical effects and are 
>totally intagible."  Am I reading this too literally, or is it simply meant 
>to imply that images cannot cause physical damage?  After all, if the 
>statement is taken literally, then the images can't have odors, make sounds, 
>or even hmmm... visibly appear, since all of these phenomena are "physical 
>effects". 
 
   Images cannot cause physical damage or create any type of non-sensory 
physical phenomenon.  This basically means that Images can not only not 
cause damage (including Flash damage), it can't create a barrier.  Thus 
Images vs Touch couldn't make it seem as though a wall was someplace that it 
wasn't, or create a table for someone to put a cup of coffee onto. 
   However, Images vs Touch could change the *apparent* temperature, make it 
seem as though something had just passed close by (air currents), play 
tricks with Spatial Awareness that's based on Touch, make an object feel 
like it has a texture other than what it actually has, or similar effects. 
 
>I realize that Mental Illusions can seem real enough to cause physical 
>damage, but I don't wish to go this route.  Note that I'm not trying to 
>"bend" the rules here by creating a character that can cause damage with 
>Images.  I simply want the character to be able to create illusions that 
>also affect the sense of touch, or better yet, seem to affect that sense,  
>which is all that matters. 
 
   I hope my comments help.  YMMV. 
--- 
This mail was sent from the Corvallis Public Library 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:28:18 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: 24 DEX 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>Which just goes to show you're (probably) not a Power Gamer.  After all, a 
>>26 DEX also goes first, and a REAL Power Gamer can find a way to squeeze a 
>>26 DEX for the same cost as the 24. :] 
> 
>   Wimps. 
>   You want Powergaming?  Come face my 38 DEX!!!   ;-] 
 
Nah. DEX 30 is the good one. Usually under (or just over - whine, wheedle, 
bribe) the GM's campaign limits (try getting 38...yurg), even numbers for 
OCV/DCV and skill rolls, plus you don't have to spend messy numbers to up 
your SPD. And you're bound to go first almost every time. Of course, 29 is 
very nice as well, but GMs are usually wise to the point break tricks. Take 
30 and it throws them off :-). 
 
The real power gamer is the one who can do it without being labelled as such 
:-). 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!" 
-John comments on Feng Shui 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Costs END to turn off (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate 
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:10:42 -0700 (PDT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
> At 02:40 PM 9/4/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
> >Brian Wong wrote: 
>  
>    I know this is someone else's, but it's hard to let pass:  when I was 
> reading X-Men Kitty (aka Sprite aka Arial aka Shadowcat) was normally solid, 
> but turned Desolid.  I don't know if this has changed, though. 
 
	Yes. It changed sometime around when she left X-Men for Excalibur. 
 
Don't know if it ever went back to the old way, but I do know it was like that at that time. 
 
-- 
Rook 
Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC 
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system 
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all) 
 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at 
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html 
 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
MMDF-Warning:  Parse error in original version of preceding line at punt-2.mail.demon.net 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick 
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 23:00:30 +0100 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.0544.0 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 35 
 
This seems an over complicated way of saying "Use martial throw with the 
Ranged advantage" 
 
TTFN from Chris! 
http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk 
 ---- 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
Date: 05 September 1997 03:06 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick 
 
>     Okay - I've stayed out of the oil slick as a DEX drain/suppress 
>thread 'til now... 
> 
>     However, the DEX drain it not the right mechanic here. If Bowhunter 
>is standing, about to shoot his patented EverFly arrows, and Slick 
>decides to throw an oil patch at his feet it will not effect Bowhunter at 
>all. But modeling it as a DEX drain reduces his OCV because he happens to 
>be standing in a puddle of oil. 
> 
>     For an Oil slick to be effective, it can only be used on a moving 
>target. 
> 
>     IMO, the better way to do an oil slick (or ice patch, etc.) is to 
>use a combination of Martial Throw, Telekinesis, AOE, and Trigger 
>(running or walking faster than 1"/phase in the AOE). 
>     Using Martial Throw ensures that that the movement/momentum of the 
>target is used against him, TK allows this to be pulled off at range, AOE 
>lets it affect an area instead of a single target, and trigger forces it 
>to do nothing to characters who are able to leap/fly/tunnel/etc around 
>the target, or to those who simply are moving very carefully/not at all. 
>     Using the DEX drain, a character with clinging cannot use that power 
>to keep from falling, a standing marksman is both less likely to hit and 
>more likely to be hit, and there are numerous other problems. 
> 
>The popularity of Windows surged in 1995, when  | 
>Microsoft began shipping Windows 95, which      |  David A. Fair 
>included many innovations that the Macintosh    |  SDS International 
>had introduced 10 years earlier.                |  dfair@sdslink.com 
>          - Reuters, Friday, July 18, 1997      | 
>  
 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
Subject: Invisible to touch attack 
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 23:07:01 +0100 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.0544.0 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 36 
 
How about a poisoned dart? 
This would be a RKA with time delay and invisible to touch and maybe 
sight. 
 
The vicitim gets stung, doesn't notice, then drops dead some (weeks/months/y 
ears) later... and nobody knows why. 
 
TTFN from Chris! 
http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk  
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 17:20:39 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Extradimensional Bases 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:28 PM 9/9/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>   And I think I'd add 5 more points to go from outer space to 
>>extradimensional space; after all, it's harder to be attacked by space 
aliens. 
> 
>Hmm...  Well, I think that may be campaign dependent.  There are no space 
>aliens in my current campaign, but there are a honking lot of 
>extradimensional demons. 
> 
>Also, you all seem to be in agreement that it should be Distant.  But if the 
>character who owns it has XDM, so he can get back to the city instantly, is 
>this really accurate?  The cost for distance seems to be to keep people away 
>from the base...  how many other people have XDM?  It might cost more... 
>but you seemed to cover that with the 5 extra points. 
>Keep in mind Dr. Aether is blowing points on just being able to travel 
>there.  I, personally, would try and cut him a break, especially if it were 
>in conception.  YMMV. 
 
   I'd go along with that YMMV.  OTOH, the XDM could be held by the base 
itself, at least if it was a Gate (and possibly otherwise) 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 23:25:30 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
	Hmmm.  This is actually a decent construction.  Gee, Rat, didn't 
expect to see you applying the rules in non-standard ways. 
 
> Time for some lateral thinking: use Images as a guideline for building a 
> new power.  Why?  Why not.  The mechanics -- not SFX! -- are closest to 
> what seems to be desired.  10 points buys you a 1 Hex "slick" area; anyone 
> entering it must make a Dexterity roll.  10 points buys you a cumulative -1 
> penalty to that roll.  Increasing the area follows the standard +1/4=2x 
> progression. 
> 
> Characters with the Acrobatics skill are much better at keeping their 
> balance than those without.  Such characters may use their Acrobatics skill 
> instead of Dexterty to retain their footing, with a +5 bonus to their 
> rolls. 
 
	Hmmm.  Don't know if I'd allow such a large bonus, but that could 
be worked around. 
 
> Perversely, before you start adding penalties, the cost is the same as 
> Change Environment, and has pretty much exactly the same effect. 
 
	But it allows for negatives to that DEX roll, where CE does not. 
This is something that deserves playtesting, though I may keep with the 
flight/superleap, UAO.  No point in a new power when an old one works 
fine.  [grin] 
 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 23:26:47 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
> Here's another idea, for those, myself included, who tend to prefer not 
> creating new Powers, for the ice or oil slick; 2d6 Minor Transformation, 
> thin layer of air to <ice/oil> slick, 2" radius (7 hexes), 40 Active 
> Points.  Now you can consider Lims. such as Charges and No Range. 
 
 
	Hmmmm.  This does create the affect, and the GM would rule on what 
the actual combat effects would be.  However, if the player wants more 
control over the power, he's out of luck. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:41:25 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Archie wrote: 
>There is a problem with what you said.  The strength of the TK representing 
>the marbles need only be strong to support the weight of the character, after 
>all isn't the TK being used to overcome the weight of the person walking over 
>the marbles. Strength cannot be used to overcome that unless they have 
>"Clinging" and use the clinging while on the floor. 
> 
>I would write-up marbles as so: 
>20 STR TK 
>     Area Effect, one hex(+1/2) 
>     Continuous(+1) 
>     Uncontrolled(+1/2) 
>     0 Endurance Cost(+1/2) 
>     Inobvious Accessable Focus(-1/2) 
>     Charges [2], recoverable(-1) 
>     Dexterity Roll to avoid effect(-1/4) 
> 
I think there's a problem with what *you* are saying.  The TK will either 
have to Strike, Grab, or Throw the character (OCV v. DCV), and this is the 
reason it's STR will need to be high.  Plus, some super-slippery substances 
are supposed to be able to overcome Clinging (no friction oil used on 
SpiderMan, at least in the cartoon).  And, even with your reasoning, why do 
HEAVY guys not slip?  Just 'cause you weigh more than 4x normal human, 
doesn't mean you would (necessarily) just sink through the oil/no friction 
zone/ice. 
 
- Jerry 
 
PS- You wouldn't have to pay for 0 END if it has charges, right? 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 07:58:31 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Hero Chat... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Hey all, remember the other day when I said I was looking for an IRC for  
Champions?  Well, now there is one.  For those of you with IRC access you  
can find it on DALnet at #herochat.  Hope to see some of you there sometime.  
 Take it easy and talk at you later. 
Sparx 
 
==================================================== 
Friends help you move.  Real friends help you move bodies. 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Fusionchat and herochat 
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:47:22 -0700 (PDT) 
Cc: fuzion@pjh.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
> Rook wrote: 
>  
> > Just to let everyone know, there's a chat group on DALnet IRC now 
> > called 
> > #Fuzionchat 
> > for discussion of Fuzion. 
> > And of course there's still #herochat for discussion of the 
> > herosystem. 
> > Rook 
> > Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC 
> > herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system 
> > Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all) 
>  
>  
> Rook; 
> I am new to this chat stuff how do I go about finding it? 
 
	Ok, start by going to 
http://www.mirc.com/ 
	There you can download an IRC chat program. 
Once you've got it, you use it to connect to an IRC 
Server. You'll want one of the DALnet ones. 
 
	the best one is DALnet, Sunnyvale. AKA mindijari. 
 
If you have further questions or can't get it to work, give me another 
note. 
 
Rook 
rook@infinex.com 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:12:24 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
I just rejoined the list, and am risking redundancy by coming in late to a 
conversation I've evidently missed most of, but since splippery effects 
are one of my pet peeves, I have to ask - has anyone reposted my modified 
Change Environment power this time around? Is anyone interested in seeing 
it? If someone hasn't seen it, my version of CE was created and modified 
in the course of a previous discussion on this topic, and seemed to meet 
with some favorable response. (And naturally with some unfavorable 
response as well!) 
 
From: CptPatriot@aol.com 
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:24:00 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
ratinox@peorth.gweep.net said: 
 
>That works fine in a campaign where there is a Strength cap; simply buy 
>more TK than that and you have something that works.  In a superheroic 
>campaign, however, it becomes hideously expensive to make this work.  The 
>Hulk stepping on some marbles *should* fall over; but he will shrug off 20 
>STR TK without blinking.  100 STR TK is the level you need to be reliable, 
>but now you are looking at a 450 Active Point power, with a real cost of 
>around 70. 
 
There is a problem with what you said.  The strength of the TK representing 
the marbles need only be strong to support the weight of the character, after 
all isn't the TK being used to overcome the weight of the person walking over 
the marbles. Strength cannot be used to overcome that unless they have 
"Clinging" and use the clinging while on the floor. 
 
I would write-up marbles as so: 
20 STR TK 
     Area Effect, one hex(+1/2) 
     Continuous(+1) 
     Uncontrolled(+1/2) 
     0 Endurance Cost(+1/2) 
     Inobvious Accessable Focus(-1/2) 
     Charges [2], recoverable(-1) 
     Dexterity Roll to avoid effect(-1/4) 
 
Base: 30 points 
Active: 75 points 
Real: 27 points 
 
What's your opinion? 
 
Archie 
CptPatriot@aol.com 
 
<A HREF="mailto:cptpatriot@aol.com">cptpatriot@aol.com</A> 
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/cptpatriot">http://members.aol.com/cptpatriot< 
/A> 
 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
Subject: Vehicles and bases 
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 19:59:25 +0100 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.0544.0 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Maybe I have a mental block, maybe I just can't find this in the rule book 
or perhaps (Gasp...) it has never been written down. 
 
Will someone please remind me what happens (or at least what they do) when 
a base or vehicle gets destroyed? It is a case of independance and the 
points are just lost... or will the base/vehicle "rise again" for the next 
adventure? 
 
Apologies for being blatantly dull but none of my PC's have ever had a base 
or vehicle (they are prefer fly by night characters.. and who can blame 
them even with a SPD 12 dusting must still be a bore) 
 
 
TTFN from Chris! 
http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 10 Sep 1997 15:06:07 -0400 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "C" == CptPatriot <CptPatriot@aol.com> writes: 
 
C> There is a problem with what you said.  The strength of the TK 
C> representing the marbles need only be strong to support the weight of 
C> the character, 
 
No, because the instant the TK hits, a Strength vs. Strength contest is 
rolled.  If the target rolls more Body than the TK, the TK fails and can do 
nothing.  Most bricks will be able to shrug off a 20 Strength TK grab with 
their casual Strength. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 10 Sep 1997 15:07:40 -0400 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
TRG> 	Hmmm.  This is actually a decent construction.  Gee, Rat, didn't 
TRG> expect to see you applying the rules in non-standard ways. 
 
Me neither. :) 
 
>> Characters with the Acrobatics skill are much better at keeping their 
>> balance than those without.  Such characters may use their Acrobatics skill 
>> instead of Dexterty to retain their footing, with a +5 bonus to their 
>> rolls. 
 
TRG> 	Hmmm.  Don't know if I'd allow such a large bonus, but that could 
TRG> be worked around. 
 
Read the description of Acrobatics: characters with the skill usually do 
not need to roll at all. 
 
>> Perversely, before you start adding penalties, the cost is the same as 
>> Change Environment, and has pretty much exactly the same effect. 
 
TRG> 	But it allows for negatives to that DEX roll, where CE does not. 
TRG> This is something that deserves playtesting, though I may keep with the 
TRG> flight/superleap, UAO.  No point in a new power when an old one works 
TRG> fine.  [grin] 
 
So, what is the reasonably common defense or set of defenses? 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick 
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:12:29 +0100 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.0544.0 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat said: 
Now you are dealing with attacker's OCV vs. defender's DCV, which is even 
 
worse than STR vs. STR, not to mention the fact that putting Advantages on 
 
Skills is not a good idea to begin with. 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
-------------------------------------------- 
Actually I had considered this. 
The attackers OCV part simulates the attacks ability to "throw" the ice/oil 
slick/spiky balls/marbles/melted chocolate under the oncoming attack. 
 
Now for DCV. A character with a high DCV is basically more adept at moving 
in combat, thus making himself a more difficult target to hit. Doesn't it 
stand to reason that a character who was more agile in combat might also 
have good balance. Many martial artists and professional fighters would 
tell you that balance is the key to everything. A good fighter would 
therefore have good balance.. 
 
And why, in your opinion, is it not a good idea to put advantages/disadvanta 
ges on skills? 
 
TTFN from Chris! 
http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk  
 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Invisible attacks/beestings 
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:15:15 +0100 
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Stainless Steel Rat said: 
Ever been stung by a bee?  It HURTS!  And the stinger is quite visible. 
 
Any dart that penetrates sufficiently to inject sufficient quantities of a 
 
toxin as to be lethal is generally not going to go unnoticed. 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
-------------------------------------------- 
The reason that wasp and bee stings hurt is because they are acidic/alkaline 
 (I can't remember which but you can take th esting awy by neutralising the 
sting..) 
 
And who says that my toxin is not strong that even a minute doesage of it 
is enough to kill? 
 Remember poisons do not have to be injested to kill, contact with the skin 
is often enough. 
 
TTFN from Chris! 
http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk  
 
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:04:28 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions) 
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> TRG> 	Hmmm.  This is actually a decent construction.  Gee, Rat, didn't 
> TRG> expect to see you applying the rules in non-standard ways. 
> 
> Me neither. :) 
 
	I won't make a snide comment about us agreeing here, really. 
> TRG> 	Hmmm.  Don't know if I'd allow such a large bonus, but that could 
> TRG> be worked around. 
> 
> Read the description of Acrobatics: characters with the skill usually do 
> not need to roll at all. 
 
	I know what it says, I'm just saying I might not agree with the 
rules as written here.  Heck, why not add a bonus for breakfall while we 
are at it? 
 
> TRG> 	But it allows for negatives to that DEX roll, where CE does not. 
> TRG> This is something that deserves playtesting, though I may keep with the 
> TRG> flight/superleap, UAO.  No point in a new power when an old one works 
> TRG> fine.  [grin] 
> 
> So, what is the reasonably common defense or set of defenses? 
 
	You mean besides flying/gliding/SFX of not actually touching the 
ground?  Well, I in general say that a successful DEX roll at a negative 
modifier proportional to the amount of flight/superleap will defend 
against the effect.  Also, depending on the SFX of the power, Clinging may 
act as a defense.  It really depends on the exact SFX of the attack -- 
give me an example, and I'll come up with the defenses. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions) 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
TRG> 	I know what it says, I'm just saying I might not agree with the 
TRG> rules as written here. 
 
Just knowing the Acrobatics skill automatically provides a reliable 
"defense" against what would be considered "normally" slippery surfaces. 
Characters with the skill do not need to roll anything when they find 
themselves in such situations; only those without the skill need to roll, 
and they do so with no minus to Dexterity.  So I figure that such a power 
at a -0 penalty equates to "normally slippery".  But looking at it this way 
makes it extremely inconsistant: when does an Acrobatics roll become 
required?  I obviate the question by giving characters with the Acrobatics 
skill a bonus that makes it practically impossible for them to fail at the 
- -0 penalty level and requiring the roll (which becomes unnecessary because 
they will not fail). 
 
TRG> Heck, why not add a bonus for breakfall while we are at it? 
 
Because Breakfall does not prevent one from falling down; it only lets one 
get up quickly after falling down. 
 
The bonus does not come from the power, it comes from the Acrobatics skill. 
 
[...] 
 
TRG> 	You mean besides flying/gliding/SFX of not actually touching the 
TRG> ground?  Well, I in general say that a successful DEX roll at a negative 
TRG> modifier proportional to the amount of flight/superleap will defend 
TRG> against the effect. 
 
So, I ask again: how do you create a slick area with a -0 penalty?  And how 
do you determine what is a fair proportion between inches of movement and 
penalty?  And what about characters with Acrobatics vs. those that do not? 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
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Js3xCRRT5+m1eGR2JO1xZUqFwbWxwZav65uRIEnIC4pvfAUpl2slyDrqMRlSFVbH 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"Stainless Steel Rat\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 97 22:07:25  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick 
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On 07 Sep 1997 20:07:24 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes: 
> 
>q> Example: Grond is fighting Ice Girl. Ice Girl creates a sheet of ice 
>q> underneath Grond and he falls over. Grond forces his claws into the 
>q> very rock beneath the ice, creating a handhold, and swings himself 
>q> clear. But Ice Girl has already had time to flee. 
> 
>What is wrong with that is Seeker should be able to slide right across the 
>ice with little problem, DEX machine that he is.  If you do it with 
>Entangle he cannot. 
 
So? You just apply the appropriate limitations - have the PC be able to 
escape on a DEX roll - (Body of Entangle) (-1/2) - if you want that. 
Personally, I'd say that Seeker takes a pratfall and ends up on the 
other side of the ice on his arse. 
 
>q> I suppose you could also do it with Gliding: Uncontrolled (optional), 
>q> AoE, UAO, Ranged, No Effect vs those standing still. 
> 
>UAO movement powers are a Bad Thing, because it is difficult to clearly 
>define a reasonably common defense or set of defenses against them. 
 
Agreed, but the power defined above is pretty self-limiting. 
 
qts 
 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"William G Geiger\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 97 22:14:18  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions) 
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On Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:37:04 -0400, William G Geiger wrote: 
 
>Here's another idea, for those, myself included, who tend to prefer not 
>creating new Powers, for the ice or oil slick; 2d6 Minor Transformation, 
>thin layer of air to <ice/oil> slick, 2" radius (7 hexes), 40 Active 
>Points.  Now you can consider Lims. such as Charges and No Range. 
 
 
Hey! Why'd you go and spoil things with a sensible suggestion? <g> 
 
This is actually great, because it forces the problem onto the GM. 
 
qts 
 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: RE: Oil Slick and Marbles 
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:39:09 -0400 
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SSR> That works fine in a campaign where there is a Strength cap; simply buy 
SSR> more TK than that and you have something that works.  In a superheroic 
SSR> campaign, however, it becomes hideously expensive to make this work.   
SSR> The Hulk stepping on some marbles *should* fall over; but he will shrug 
SSR> off 20 STR TK without blinking.  100 STR TK is the level you need to be 
SSR> reliable, but now you are looking at a 450 Active Point power, with a real  
SSR> cost of around 70. 
 
 
Player #1:  "Puny marbles cannot stop Hulk!"  My character flexes his mighty 
toe muscles, using his Casual STR to break the marbles' TK Grab. 
Player#2:  That's absurd!  You can't do that. 
GM:  Yes he can.  TK is essentially STR used at range.  A TK Grab can 
always be broken by a successful STR vs. STR Roll. 
Player #3:  Shouldn't the Hulk simply crush the glass marbles underfoot?  
According to The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe, the Hulk weighs-- 
Player #4:  What's the Resistant Defense and BODY for glass marbles, 
anyway? 
Player #2:  They're not glass.  My CyberNinja character uses Teflon-coated 
molybdenum-steel ball bearings for this gimmick--an Unbreakable Focus.    
Player #3:  That begs the question.  Conceivably, the power shouldn't work 
on characters with enough levels of Growth or Density Increase, or on 
sufficiently massive vehicles.  Your CyberNinja should take that as a 
Limitation. 
Player #4:  How do you make a main battle tank fall down, anyway? 
Player #2:  Hey, can I rewrite my character sheet right now?  I can apply 
the point saved to my NND RKA adamantium tetsu bishi.  Not even the 
Hulk's feet can-- 
Player #1:  "Hulk smash!" 
 
 
Seriously, though, Stainless Steel Rat has a point.  The mechanic for TK 
as a slick surface is problematic when you go beyond tripping ordinary 
mortals.  Still, the description of the TK power is vague enough to warrant 
arguments from players. A player might contend that, as matter of SFX, 
a brick's STR cannot be used to break a TK hold, be it marbles, icy 
ground, psychokinetic will, or a hypermagnetogravitic beam.  The power 
"Flight, Usable Against Others" can sidestep questions of a target's STR 
when the attacker wants to toss the target around, but some players 
might call this a kludge, not to mention yet another power that has 
to be bought to simulate a telekinetic effect. 
 
A kindly GM might let a player buy "Target's STR cannot be used to resist" 
as an expensive Advantage on Telekinesis, or as a less costly Advantage 
let the player define a different method or effect for resisting a TK hold 
based on the power's SFX, such as a jamming counter-frequency for a 
hi-tech TK power or an EGO vs. EGO contest for psychokinesis. 
(Psychic marbles?  Ectoplasmic ooze ?) 
 
I'm inclined to fall back on Change Environment to represent some forms 
of large slick surface, especially weather related, while Minor Transformation 
can handle others.  To a degree, it's a matter of taste.  I've always 
considered it a flaw in Change Environment that it can't be used for 
more dramatic effects.  Perhaps its cost can be graded in the way 
Transformation is.  Of course, Advantages can always be piled on to 
represent a thick fog just shy of true Darkness that mandates Range 
penalties on PER Rolls, or an ice sheet that imposes DEX rolls to 
stay vertical. 
 
Oh, and here are two shapeshifter tricks for walking on ice taken from 
Roger Zelazny's Amber novel "Knight of Shadows."  Reform your body 
to have a lower center of gravity and be more stable.  Or make your 
feet big, broad, and spikey for better traction--but take your shoes 
off first, or course. 
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@voicenet.com 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:58:04 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect 
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SurturZ wrote: 
>On 11 Sep 97 at 17:15, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au rhetorically  
>propounded: 
>> At 03:00 PM 9/11/97 +0000, you wrote: 
>> >If I have an NND attack that also has variable special effects,  
>> >should I be allowed to change the defense to the NND? 
>> 
>> yeesh, i'd say a doubling of advantage- like taking o end fer autofire-  
>>is still in order, though i suppose it's up to how deadly the attack is. . .  
> 
>Well, being NND, and therefore doing no BODY, the answer to that is  
>"not at all" :-) 
> 
>All up it is a +1.5 advantage... +.25 more than AVLD, which to me  
>sounds reasonable. Desolid would still be a defense. Doesn't mean the  
>GM has to allow it, I guess. 
> 
I would think that Variable Advantage, with a Limitation on the Advantage 
(only for varying NNDs), along with the VSFX Advantage would cover it.  That 
comes out to...  let's see... 
EB 2d6, VSFX (+1/2), VADV (+2; Only for NNDs, -1): 25 Real, 35 Active, 10 
Base.  3 END. 
This way, it costs the same as SurturZ's answer, but costs END like 
Michael's.  And this is what is intuitive to me, before I've truly woken up. : ) 
 
- Jerry 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:19:34 +1000 
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Subject: Re: Vehicles and bases 
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At 09:16 AM 9/9/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>At 07:59 PM 9/10/97 +0100, Chris Lynch wrote: 
>>Maybe I have a mental block, maybe I just can't find this in the rule book 
>>or perhaps (Gasp...) it has never been written down. 
>> 
>>Will someone please remind me what happens (or at least what they do) when 
>>a base or vehicle gets destroyed? It is a case of independance and the 
>>points are just lost... or will the base/vehicle "rise again" for the next 
>>adventure? 
> 
>Depends on your GM's philosophy.  The phrasing of the rules for Perquisites 
>implies strongly that Perks can be both gained and lost during play 
>REGARDLESS of points.  Which is to say that if the base or vehicle (being 
>perks) are destroyed, they're just plain gone (like an Independent focus), 
>but on the other hand the characters can reestablish these perks (or 
>entirely different bases/vehicles) simply via roleplaying without points. 
> 
 
 
this seems to be valid- but it causes problems- basically i find that this discourages any player with a brain from bying a base f vehicel, especially a combat vehicle. For my varians ship combat rules, i allow a minimum return rate of points lost of 5 points for each one xp gained. These can be spent any way, tho the gm can place the normal restrictions on powers, ect. I call this a 'points-based' scale, and there are other limits, based around various things including the gm having even more of a say than usual on the creation process.  
 
 
 
 
 
>-- 
>Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
>+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
>| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
>+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
>   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
> 
> 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:25:09 +1000 
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Subject: Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions) 
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At 09:37 AM 9/9/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>Here's another idea, for those, myself included, who tend to prefer not 
>creating new Powers, for the ice or oil slick; 2d6 Minor Transformation, 
>thin layer of air to <ice/oil> slick, 2" radius (7 hexes), 40 Active 
>Points.  Now you can consider Lims. such as Charges and No Range. 
> 
> Aloha,  WillGGeiger@juno.com 
> 
 
 
 
another idea- i thought of a new talent- bough with identical points- stuff to find weakness, which allow for wierd use of powers- basically on a sucessful roll the characcter can use a relevant power as a limited transform- with active points equal to the real cost of the power in question. The level of transform depends on what is being attempted, i don't think i would allow major ones. The penalty to the roll is based on how fammiliar and difficult the 'power stunt' is, and only minor 'trivial' effects can be done. Hence a hero with an ice entangle or ice blast can frost the floor, making it reasonably slippery, though it would probably only effect low-dex heros and normals.  
 
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:36:07 +1000 
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Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
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At 12:24 PM 9/9/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>>>He never said what the rationale or purpose was for the character. He  
>>>certainly didn't say the character existed for the purpose of being  
>>>the best TK, and he most definitely did not say the purpose of the  
>>>character was to outshine or be better than the PCs. 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>>but he does. how else will that particular bunch of hyper-compeditive 
>>players see him? 
> 
>Well, they haven't seen him.  You seem to keep missing that point, don't  
>you?  They haven't even heard about him.  Trying to quote you directly here,  
>but try to keep up with the arguement.  He is a NPC that has yet in over 10  
>years of gaming entered the lives of the heroes.  He is there as a part of  
>the backdrop for the world and Universe I have created and call my campaign.  
> Perhaps, when I get some less competitive players he will make an appearance. 
> 
 
but you just said that if a player wants to be most powerful TK then you mention the TK npc guy. .. . . .. . 
 
 
 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>><snip> 
>>>> >I recall saying my NPCs never  
>>>> >outshine my PCs  
>>>>  
>>>> apart from when you specifically design them to do so, as you SAID you 
>>did with the force-tk-guy? 
>>> 
>>>He said nothing of the sort. He said that a PC couldn't be the most  
>>>powerful telekinetic because someone more powerful existed, he did  
>>>_not_ say that they were designed to outshine the PCs. 
>>> 
>> 
>>uh-huh? well, how's about we play "did noT!" "did SO!" for another 12 hours?  
> 
>So what you are telling me here is when I say, something it is denial, or  
>misunderstanding, or I'm back tracking on myself, or losing track of the  
>arguement right?  But when someone points things out to you, it is just a  
>childish game.   
 
it is a case of dissagreement which cannot be disproven. I happen to think the person is wrong- he disagrees. That's it.  
 
>I see.  And to think I've been wasting my time arguing with  
>someone with this attitude.  You were never wrong from the beginning in your  
>mind and you never were going to be proven wrong.  Quick, 2 +  2 is 4, prove  
>it wrong, because after all, I did say it and we can't agree on anything  
>yet.   
 
this is my point- 2 + 2 = 4, but fur of what? that cannot be t\determined, so all we are left with is out opinions.  
 
 
 
 
>He is saying I never said those things because I NEVER did say those  
>things.  And he isn't the only one who has a grasp on what I've been saying  
>during this thread, so please re-examine my arguments and prove to me that I  
>said things I never said.   
 
He agrees with you. Hence all your points about me aer equally valid about you. 
 
>But then again you could reword anything you like  
>to make it sound like I did can't you?   
 
yes. You've found me out, i'm an evil genius and i live in a cave. 
 
>Until you give me some personal  
>information on me and my players, I'd like if you would quit telling me what  
>I've said, done, think, implied, or do and likewise with my players.  I have  
>enough problems already without someone telling me what I'm thinking :) 
> 
 
so in other words, no-one can argue about anything, because only you know what's going on in your group? This is just another version of the "i'm always right because i'm  
me" attitude you ascribe to me.  
 
>>> 
>>>Actually, he did not say that 'powerful at one thing' leads to a  
>>>power gamer, he only said that a particular power gamer started by  
>>>pushing the limits in one thing and went on from there. Not the same  
>>>thing. 
>>>  
>> 
>>he stated that his observations only dealt with his players, hence his own 
>>concept of powergamers is the one being disgussed.  
> 
>And in case you missed again, (gee I seem to be repeating that a lot)  
 
hmmm, i remember something about evidence existing at a convergent zone where lots of points come together in mutual support?  
 
guess not. 
 
>I  
>never came up with the label power gamer for any of my players, it was when  
>4 - 6 other players came to me individually and complained about one players  
>character being a power gamer or too powerful or out of balance with the  
>game that gave me the concept of what a power gamer is.  I didn't label  
>people power gamers with a random roll of a dice. 
> 
 
I didn't say you did- i just said that the term power gamer means different things to different people, and, as you mention incessantly, only your idea of a power gamer relates to your point. And once again- a democratic concept has nothing to do with the players motives- only to do with what motives you(the group) ascribed to him. But as i said, that's irrelevant because the issue relates to your deffinition, not mine.   
 
 
>Sparx 
> 
> 
 
 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:20:59 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Curbing the Power Gamer was (Re: Is there a need for SPD?) 
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>At 12:24 PM 9/9/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>>>>He never said what the rationale or purpose was for the character. He  
>>>>certainly didn't say the character existed for the purpose of being  
>>>>the best TK, and he most definitely did not say the purpose of the  
>>>>character was to outshine or be better than the PCs. 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>but he does. how else will that particular bunch of hyper-compeditive 
>>>players see him? 
>> 
>>Well, they haven't seen him.  You seem to keep missing that point, don't  
>>you?  They haven't even heard about him.  Trying to quote you directly here,  
>>but try to keep up with the arguement.  He is a NPC that has yet in over 10  
>>years of gaming entered the lives of the heroes.  He is there as a part of  
>>the backdrop for the world and Universe I have created and call my campaign.  
>> Perhaps, when I get some less competitive players he will make an appearance. 
>> 
> 
>but you just said that if a player wants to be most powerful TK then you  
mention the TK npc guy. .. . . .. . 
> 
 
We've gone into this many times and I'm done with this part of the  
arguement.  Believe what you want on it, ok.  Your personal beliefs will not  
effect me in any way, shape or form. 
 
>>He is saying I never said those things because I NEVER did say those  
>>things.  And he isn't the only one who has a grasp on what I've been saying  
>>during this thread, so please re-examine my arguments and prove to me that I  
>>said things I never said.   
> 
>He agrees with you. Hence all your points about me aer equally valid about you. 
 
Uh, sure, I don't follow your logic here. 
 
> 
>>But then again you could reword anything you like  
>>to make it sound like I did can't you?   
> 
>yes. You've found me out, i'm an evil genius and i live in a cave. 
 
Really, I'm an evil genius, but I live in the back of a mini-van, really  
much cozier in than the old stone floor, though it gets bumpy from time to  
time when the owner takes it out.  :) 
 
>>Until you give me some personal  
>>information on me and my players, I'd like if you would quit telling me what  
>>I've said, done, think, implied, or do and likewise with my players.  I have  
>>enough problems already without someone telling me what I'm thinking :) 
>> 
> 
>so in other words, no-one can argue about anything, because only you know  
what's going on in your group? This is just another version of the "i'm  
always right because i'm  
>me" attitude you ascribe to me.  
 
No, you are capable of arguing with me, just quit putting words in my mouth,  
telling me what I do, or telling me what I implied when I said something.   
Take my arguement at face value.  Don't tell me how my players behave or  
what they know when you don't know them.  That is what I'm saying.  That's  
all really, and truthfully the arguement is over.  I've decided there is no  
win here for me at least.  I yield, there are other things to talk about and  
this constant repeating is getting stagnant.  If you care to have yet  
another discussion I'm up for it, but I'm tired of this one.   
 
 
>>I  
>>never came up with the label power gamer for any of my players, it was when  
>>4 - 6 other players came to me individually and complained about one players  
>>character being a power gamer or too powerful or out of balance with the  
>>game that gave me the concept of what a power gamer is.  I didn't label  
>>people power gamers with a random roll of a dice. 
>> 
> 
>I didn't say you did- i just said that the term power gamer means different  
things to different people, and, as you mention incessantly, only your idea  
of a power gamer relates to your point. And once again- a democratic concept  
has nothing to do with the players motives- only to do with what motives  
you(the group) ascribed to him. But as i said, that's irrelevant because the  
issue relates to your deffinition, not mine.   
 
I think my head is spinning after this last one.  I'm not sure what you are  
trying to say here.  I'm right because it is my experience I'm talking about  
but it is irrelevant that I'm talking about my experience?  I don't know.   
 
Well, to wrap this up and hopefully kill this thread.  It has been fun, I'm  
not being sarcastic.  I like a challenge and you have been more than that.   
I tire of this and call it a cop out or anything else you can come up with,  
I quit.  This is getting no where and growing stale.  Lastly, I'm not going  
to have access to a computer for about a week or less if I'm lucky so it  
really won't matter if you do reply, I can't.  You can continue this  
arguement though if you would like.  You are good at filling in my words for  
me, just let me know how it turns out in the end.  Take it easy and talk at  
you later. 
Sparx 
 
==================================================== 
Friends help you move.  Real friends help you move bodies. 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
From: CptPatriot@aol.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 01:27:55 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Marbles {was Re: Oil Slick} 
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>I would write-up marbles as so: 
>20 STR TK 
>     Area Effect, one hex(+1/2) 
>     Continuous(+1) 
>     Uncontrolled(+1/2) 
>     0 Endurance Cost(+1/2) 
>     Inobvious Accessable Focus(-1/2) 
>     Charges [2], recoverable(-1) 
>     Dexterity Roll to avoid effect(-1/4) 
> 
>Base: 30 points 
>Active: 75 points 
>Real: 27 points 
 
I forgot the Cost Endurance limitation & that TK is already a constant 
power. 
 
>No, because the instant the TK hits, a Strength vs. Strength contest is 
>rolled.  If the target rolls more Body than the TK, the TK fails and can do 
>nothing.  Most bricks will be able to shrug off a 20 Strength TK grab with 
>their casual Strength. 
 
I feel that there should be no STR vs STR contest. 
I know that what your wrote is the strictly by the rules answer, 
but in this particular case, going strictly by rules doesn't follow the 
spirit 
what is going on. 
If the person caught in the area effect is trying to resist then what is he 
resisting 
against. 
 
I believe I had this same conversation with Ratinox regarding a 
hi-G/anti-gravity field about a year ago. 
 
From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann) 
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:51:30 -0800 
Organization: Terminal BBS  (403)327-9731 
Subject: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions) 
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 -=> Quoting Stainless Steel Rat to Mike Lehmann <=- 
 
 ML> Usually a BODY-only entangle, with each point of BODY translating to a 
 ML> -1 on a forced DEX check. It only affects the single hex, and cannot 
 ML> create a "wall". 
 
 SSR> So, how does one create a slippery surface with no DEX roll penalty, 
 SSR> which is the norm for "normal" slippery surfaces? 
 
Buy it "No BODY" as well as "No DEF", or you could roll all ones? <g> 
 
 SSR> An oil spill or a coating of ice/snow on the ground does not have 
 SSR> significant Body; what Body it has is the ground underneath.  So I do 
 SSR> not believe that Entangle, even in variation, is a good power to use as 
 SSR> a basis for this. 
 
Regardless, we have used it in game sessions and it works well. Simply  
ignore any attempt to "destroy" it unless it could logically work (such  
as melting the ice away). 
 
 SSR> Time for some lateral thinking: use Images as a guideline for building 
 SSR> a new power.  Why?  Why not.  The mechanics -- not SFX! -- are closest 
 SSR> to what seems to be desired.  10 points buys you a 1 Hex "slick" area; 
 SSR> anyone entering it must make a Dexterity roll.  10 points buys you a 
 SSR> cumulative -1 penalty to that roll.  Increasing the area follows the 
 SSR> standard +1/4=2x progression. 
 
 SSR> Characters with the Acrobatics skill are much better at keeping their 
 SSR> balance than those without.  Such characters may use their Acrobatics 
 SSR> skill instead of Dexterty to retain their footing, with a +5 bonus to 
 SSR> their rolls. 
 
 SSR> Perversely, before you start adding penalties, the cost is the same as 
 SSR> Change Environment, and has pretty much exactly the same effect. 
 
I see what you're getting at. Maybe such an power could simulate a  
high-gravity field (STR-check), or maybe even poisonous gas (CON-check)? 
 
mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net - - - - - Justice Krewe / Enigma Watch GM 
- - - - - -  http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html - - - - - - 
 
... Now I've gone too far, where do I go now? 
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR] 
 
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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:15:30 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect 
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At 03:00 PM 9/11/97 +0000, you wrote: 
>If I have an NND attack that also has variable special effects,  
>should I be allowed to change the defense to the NND? 
> 
>My thinking is that I should, provided the VSFX is the +1/2 level  
>(rather than the +1/4 ice spear/ice hammer/fire hammer/fire spear  
>level) 
> 
>SurturZ 
> 
>-------------------------------------------------- 
>David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au> 
>Synchrotech Software  
>Pager: Dial 016020 & Quote Pager #247689 to operator 
> 
 
 
yeesh, i'd say a doubling of advantage- like taking o end fer autofire- is still in order, though i suppose it's up to how deadly the attack is. . .  
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:16:58 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
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At 10:51 PM 9/10/97 -0800, you wrote: 
> SSR> An oil spill or a coating of ice/snow on the ground does not have 
> SSR> significant Body; what Body it has is the ground underneath.  So I do 
> SSR> not believe that Entangle, even in variation, is a good power to use as 
> SSR> a basis for this. 
> 
>Regardless, we have used it in game sessions and it works well. Simply  
>ignore any attempt to "destroy" it unless it could logically work (such  
>as melting the ice away). 
> 
 
hows about bying an advantage simmilar to 'attack vs limited defence'? 
 
 
 
 
 
> SSR> Time for some lateral thinking: use Images as a guideline for building 
> SSR> a new power.  Why?  Why not.  The mechanics -- not SFX! -- are closest 
> SSR> to what seems to be desired.  10 points buys you a 1 Hex "slick" area; 
> SSR> anyone entering it must make a Dexterity roll.  10 points buys you a 
> SSR> cumulative -1 penalty to that roll.  Increasing the area follows the 
> SSR> standard +1/4=2x progression. 
> 
> SSR> Characters with the Acrobatics skill are much better at keeping their 
> SSR> balance than those without.  Such characters may use their Acrobatics 
> SSR> skill instead of Dexterty to retain their footing, with a +5 bonus to 
> SSR> their rolls. 
> 
> SSR> Perversely, before you start adding penalties, the cost is the same as 
> SSR> Change Environment, and has pretty much exactly the same effect. 
> 
>I see what you're getting at. Maybe such an power could simulate a  
>high-gravity field (STR-check), or maybe even poisonous gas (CON-check)? 
> 
>mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net - - - - - Justice Krewe / Enigma Watch GM 
>- - - - - -  http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html - - - - - - 
> 
>... Now I've gone too far, where do I go now? 
>~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR] 
> 
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
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> 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 08:55:06 GMT 
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk 
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Steve McGinness) 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions) 
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At 10:51 PM 10/9/97 -0800, Mike Lehmann wrote: 
SSR = Stainless Steel Rat; ML = Mike Lehmann 
 
> SSR> Time for some lateral thinking: use Images as a guideline for building 
> SSR> a new power.  Why?  Why not.  The mechanics -- not SFX! -- are closest 
> SSR> to what seems to be desired.  10 points buys you a 1 Hex "slick" area; 
> SSR> anyone entering it must make a Dexterity roll.  10 points buys you a 
> SSR> cumulative -1 penalty to that roll.  Increasing the area follows the 
> SSR> standard +1/4=2x progression. 
 
I would also suggest the following: 
 
1 - Some kind of penalty depending on the speed of the character entering  
the oil slick etc, something like -1/2" of movement?  
 
2 - If a character falls then he takes damage as per knockback, which makes  
high speed entries to oil slicks near walls particularly dangerous.... 
 
3 - Where appropriate the power might be built with a limited form of  
continous on it. For example an oil slick may adhere to the footwear of the  
hero entering meaning that he would continue to have difficulties in  
retaining balance. Obviously this would wear off over time, continous,  
uncontrollable, and there I get stuck ablative or something.... 
 
> SSR> Characters with the Acrobatics skill are much better at keeping their 
> SSR> balance than those without.  Such characters may use their Acrobatics 
> SSR> skill instead of Dexterty to retain their footing, with a +5 bonus to 
> SSR> their rolls. 
 
I'm in favour of this. Speed is the killer in this situation, people with  
acrobatics should be able to negotiate an oil slick easily, and even  
quickly, but the speed penalties would help reduce this if they really  
wanted to push it. 
 
ML>I see what you're getting at. Maybe such an power could simulate a  
ML>high-gravity field (STR-check), or maybe even poisonous gas (CON-check)? 
 
I think this is a mechanic where Hero does tend to break down. It's all to  
do with it being reasonable to couch the attack in terms of a physical  
attack, but it doesn't affect physical defences. Another example of this is  
drugs and gas attacks, obvious to see that it should be a DEX based attack,  
but not so obvious what the defences should be or how they should be  
applied. Perhaps this would help circumvent what I see as a major black hole  
in the rules. 
 
It must be if even Rat is willing to try way out solutions! :-) 
 
 
Stephen McGinness 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:37:08 +0000 
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect 
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On 11 Sep 97 at 15:00, David Streeter wrote: 
 
> If I have an NND attack that also has variable special effects,  
> should I be allowed to change the defense to the NND? 
 
NO. Allowing a single character two different NND attacks is 
normally forbidden in Champions, and you want an infinite number of 
NND attacks? 
 
Not in my world. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:37:09 +0000 
Subject: Re: Marbles {was Re: Oil Slick} 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
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On 11 Sep 97 at 1:27, CptPatriot@aol.com wrote: 
 
> I feel that there should be no STR vs STR contest. 
> I know that what your wrote is the strictly by the rules answer, 
> but in this particular case, going strictly by rules doesn't follow the 
> spirit 
> what is going on. 
> If the person caught in the area effect is trying to resist then what is he 
> resisting 
> against. 
 
I agree that there should be no STR vs STR contest, but there _is_.  
To eliminate it, you are allowing a special effect to _severely_  
advantage a power. A relatively weak TK now has the power to affect  
people who are effectively immune to TKs that are twice as powerful.  
Too big of a difference for SFX. 
 
However, I have often wondered why STR would affect all TK, too. For  
example, a TK that consists of a giant forcefield hand could be  
broken by a STR roll, but a TK that consists of gravity fields or  
other intangible forces should be resisted only in so far as the  
strong character can grab objects or is pulled along the ground  
rather than lifted. 
 
I suggest a TK NND for effects that can be resisted only if the  
character can grab or dig into something. This would be used for a TK  
that could lift you into the air without mattering what your STR is,  
but which, if it dragged you along the ground, you could resist by  
planting your feet firmly. The defense could be flight and a STR roll  
or grabbing something and making a STR roll. I also recommend that  
this NND only be applied to TKs that cannot squeeze or punch. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:37:09 +0000 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions) 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
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On 11 Sep 97 at 19:52, Steve McGinness wrote: 
 
> At 02:23 PM 11/9/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
> > 
> >You mean "sticky". 
>  
> I didn't want to use sticky because it wouldn't necessarily affect the next  
> person to touch the first victim, unless of course the second person also  
> entered the zone. Perhaps a modified sticky advantage then, limited to only  
> one transfer.... 
 
It wouldn't be sticky, because sticky makes the power stick to others  
not hit with it, not stick to the target. If it were sticky, then  
anyone helping him to his feet would fall over, even if they weren't  
in the area of effect. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
X-Sender: ghost@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 09:44:03 -0500 
From: Bryce Berggren <ghost@softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Books in Champions Universe 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
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At 08:31 PM 9/11/97 GMT, Michael Adams wrote: 
> 
> 
>Anyone know of anyone who is doing such an idea. Might be fun. 
> 
>To have your favorite Chmapions superhero come to life. 
> 
>Maybe a weekend serial could come from it. 
> 
>Why not, after all, whay does Marvel/Dc have all the fun. Opps Marvel is 
>bankrupt, and in court last I heard. Well.. 
 
Well, you did ask why not ... 
 
Because it's highly doubtful one could get any publisher to have enough 
faith in the CU to back such projects; after all, not even Hero Games 
themselves had faith in the CU's mass-market appeal, thus TNM. :-/ 
 
 
H. G. 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:50:25 +0000 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions) 
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On 11 Sep 97 at 17:01, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> >>>>> "SM" == Steve McGinness <smcginn@csm.exeter.ac.uk> writes: 
>  
> SM> Thats right, but when you leave the slick or are expelled at speed onto 
> SM> the road or into a wall uncontrolled then you are, again, going to be 
> SM> in trouble. Uncontrolled spills are closest to KB damage in nature. 
>  
> More like a move-by or move through, I think. 
 
Depends. The only reason why I can think that knockback does more  
damage from impact than move-through is that knockback implies that  
the character has no control. That would seem to apply in this  
circumstance. 
 
Besides, there is no rule for taking damage from a move-by or  
-through from the ground you are passing over. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <surturz@mail.zip.com.au> 
From: "David Streeter" <surturz@zip.com.au> 
Organization: Synchrotech Software 
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:00:49 +0000 
Subject: NND & Variable special effect 
Reply-to: surturz@zip.com.au 
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If I have an NND attack that also has variable special effects,  
should I be allowed to change the defense to the NND? 
 
My thinking is that I should, provided the VSFX is the +1/2 level  
(rather than the +1/4 ice spear/ice hammer/fire hammer/fire spear  
level) 
 
SurturZ 
 
-------------------------------------------------- 
David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au> 
Synchrotech Software  
Pager: Dial 016020 & Quote Pager #247689 to operator 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:10:54 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Marbles {was Re: Oil Slick} 
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> I feel that there should be no STR vs STR contest. 
> I know that what your wrote is the strictly by the rules answer, 
> but in this particular case, going strictly by rules doesn't follow the 
> spirit 
> what is going on. 
> If the person caught in the area effect is trying to resist then what is he 
> resisting 
> against. 
 
 
	You can feel all you want here, but that doesn't cause the facts 
of the matter to disappear.  The power you are using to simulate the 
effect brings in certain aspects, like the STR vs STR, which makes it a 
poor choice.  The answer is not to give it (major) free advantages but 
to find a power that works better. 
 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:13:42 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect 
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> 
> All up it is a +1.5 advantage... +.25 more than AVLD, which to me 
> sounds reasonable. Desolid would still be a defense. Doesn't mean the 
> GM has to allow it, I guess. 
 
 
	Actually, if you can guess what SFX affect the desol, even that 
isn't a defense.  This is really a problematic power, as it does basically 
tromp all over game balance.  That, and I'd like to see some actual SFX. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 23:15:19 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (Here we go again, my 2 penneth) 
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John and/or Ron Prins wrote: 
>Horrors! HORRORS! Man, if you value your sanity, DON'T go using adjustment 
>powers on SPD! 
>   <snip> 
>Which sucks beyond all reason for gameplay purposes. You gotta sit down and 
>recalculate when the player can act again. Plus, what's good for the goose 
>is good for the gander - imagine villians with 10D6 SPD Aid. So GoonMaster 
>(SPD 4) spends his first two phases Aiding himself to 10 SPD, then spends 
>his last 4 phases Aiding 4 goons to an average of +3 SPD. Yikes. 
> 
>Or Dispel vs. SPD. Most people won't have more than 50-60 points in SPD (all 
>told, figured and bought up). So I buy a 20D6 SPD Dispel (60 points) and 
>whammo, I've just removed _all_ of my opponant's chances to act (their SPD 
>won't come back until their next phase, but they don't have a next 
>phase...and Dispel doesn't recover in post-phase 12 like drain does...isn't 
>that nice :->). 
> 
>Note: This is illegal, but I'll let someone else tell you why :-). 
> 
>Anyway, the implications of SPD Aid/Drain/Transfer/Suppress are just so 
>nasty I don't let anyone near them. It's better for the game, as well. 
>People can take being knocked out. But getting Drained to 0 SPD, fully 
>concious, twiddling their thumbs is just too much. 
> 
>And note that your SPD Drain wouldn't effect DEX - so the character can't 
>act at 0 SPD, but still has full DCV??? <scratch head> 
> 
I sez:  OH BOY!!!  MORE DRAIN STUFF!!! 
 
Okay, you can't (unless the GM or House Rules allow) Dispel a 
Characteristic, only Powers.  Some House Rules allow you to do CHAs, and 
they *are* listed *under* Powers, as a Power... 
 
As far as recalculation of SPD, I'm not sure how *I'd* handle it, much less 
how it would *officially* be done.  When lowering your own SPD voluntarily, 
the Character must declare so at _the_end_of_a_turn_.  And then he could 
drop his SPD to 2, if he wanted (usually used to drown less fast, although 
it could also be used to keep your Force Field up longer in a 
damaging-but-not-enough-to-get-through-my-Force-Field-Death-Trap-and-now-I-h 
ave-to-be- rescued).  I also saw something about variable SPD, for dealing 
with a Multiform in which the forms had different SPDs, but I forget where. 
Could've been on this list, last semester. 
Feh.  That doesn't really explain how to do it.  Aw, well... 
 
Also, the "Negative Characteristics" rules (I likes 'em more 'n more : ) 
from either Champs III or the HSA I state that SPD can't be Drained below 1. 
: P  'Course, such as you, might not use them... 
 
- Jerry 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <surturz@mail.zip.com.au> 
From: "David Streeter" <surturz@zip.com.au> 
Organization: Synchrotech Software 
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:57:23 +0000 
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect 
Reply-to: surturz@zip.com.au 
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On 11 Sep 97 at 17:15, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au rhetorically  
propounded: 
 
> At 03:00 PM 9/11/97 +0000, you wrote: 
> >If I have an NND attack that also has variable special effects,  
> >should I be allowed to change the defense to the NND? 
> 
> yeesh, i'd say a doubling of advantage- like taking o end fer autofire-  
>is still in order, though i suppose it's up to how deadly the attack is. . .  
 
Well, being NND, and therefore doing no BODY, the answer to that is  
"not at all" :-) 
 
All up it is a +1.5 advantage... +.25 more than AVLD, which to me  
sounds reasonable. Desolid would still be a defense. Doesn't mean the  
GM has to allow it, I guess. 
  
SurturZ 
-------------------------------------------------- 
David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au> 
Word of the unspecified time period: "littoral" - pertaining to the shore 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions) 
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>>>>> "SM" == Steve McGinness <smcginn@csm.exeter.ac.uk> writes: 
 
SM> 1 - Some kind of penalty depending on the speed of the character 
SM> entering the oil slick etc, something like -1/2" of movement? 
 
Why?  Extremely agile characters could use the slick to maintain speed, 
sliding right across it.  One does not start having problems on slick 
surfaces until it comes time to change velocity (speed or direction). 
 
SM> 2 - If a character falls then he takes damage as per knockback, which 
SM> makes high speed entries to oil slicks near walls particularly 
SM> dangerous.... 
 
No.  If you trip and fall, how fast you are moving has little to do with 
how much you get hurt unless you stop moving -- that is, friction against 
the ground causes most of the damage.  On a slick surface there is little 
friction, so when one falls one does not stop moving horizontally, and the 
damage is mostly from the vertical impact. 
 
SM> 3 - Where appropriate the power might be built with a limited form of 
SM> continous on it. 
 
It is already continuous. 
 
SM> For example an oil slick may adhere to the footwear of the hero 
SM> entering meaning that he would continue to have difficulties in 
SM> retaining balance. 
 
You mean "sticky". 
 
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:58:23 -0700 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect 
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At 03:00 PM 9/11/97 +0000, David Streeter wrote: 
>If I have an NND attack that also has variable special effects,  
>should I be allowed to change the defense to the NND? 
> 
Eeek! 
 
No, that would create a power with the advantage NDAA:No Defense At All. 
 
'Hmmm...I'm up again Gas Mask Man, so my NND Gas Attack is useless. I'll 
change it to an NND Radiation attack, defense is force field. Yeah. That's 
the ticket.' 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 01:14:43 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: XP Awards (was Re: NND & Variable special effect) 
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SurturZ wrote: 
>This is my replacement character in a campaign I've been playing in  
>for about 3 years now. We're up to around 300pt characters (although   
>"Artifice" is built on 275). A testimony to the slow growth of  
>characters in Champions (25 XP in three years? Sheesh! I guess we  
>only play around four sessions a year). 
> 
>How many XP does everyone hand out? I usually award about 1XP/hr real  
>time, with bonuses/penalties for roleplaying & ingenious play.  
> 
>(I think I'm rather generous with XP). 
> 
I think most on the list would agree (about the generous bit).  I asked 
relatively the same question when I got on the list last semester, and I got 
some pretty good guidelines.  Give me some time, and I'll sort through the 
responses and post the highlights. 
        I really only GM, the one character that a player has is up to 324 
(+3 unspent).  And he's been playing him under me for 4-5 years (he started 
at 250).  This is the player who Solo adventures *all* the time.  Then 
again, it's only been 4-5 game *months*...  <sigh> 
        The last games I ran at home (before I came back to ol' vt.edu) I 
gave out 1 XP/session, to standardize the characters a bit.  No one (but the 
guy I mentioned above : )  seemed to mind. 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 19:52:42 GMT 
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk 
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Steve McGinness) 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:23 PM 11/9/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>>>>> "SM" == Steve McGinness <smcginn@csm.exeter.ac.uk> writes: 
>SM> 1 - Some kind of penalty depending on the speed of the character 
>SM> entering the oil slick etc, something like -1/2" of movement? 
> 
>Why?  Extremely agile characters could use the slick to maintain speed, 
>sliding right across it.  One does not start having problems on slick 
>surfaces until it comes time to change velocity (speed or direction). 
 
But this isn't really true to the nature of the medium. In a comic, perhaps  
only 4 colour but comics all the same, you expect someone entering a slippy  
patch to have trouble keeping their feet. It is true to the genre to give  
them a hard time. As you said, anyone with acrobatics would have little  
problem given their +5 bonus and extremely dextrous characters would also  
negotiate the hazard. It would provide problems for those less dextrous  
people who move at speed. 
 
>SM> 2 - If a character falls then he takes damage as per knockback, which 
>SM> makes high speed entries to oil slicks near walls particularly 
>SM> dangerous.... 
> 
>No.  If you trip and fall, how fast you are moving has little to do with 
>how much you get hurt unless you stop moving -- that is, friction against 
>the ground causes most of the damage.  On a slick surface there is little 
>friction, so when one falls one does not stop moving horizontally, and the 
>damage is mostly from the vertical impact. 
 
Thats right, but when you leave the slick or are expelled at speed onto the  
road or into a wall uncontrolled then you are, again, going to be in  
trouble. Uncontrolled spills are closest to KB damage in nature. 
 
>SM> 3 - Where appropriate the power might be built with a limited form of 
>SM> continous on it. 
> 
>It is already continuous. 
> 
>SM> For example an oil slick may adhere to the footwear of the hero 
>SM> entering meaning that he would continue to have difficulties in 
>SM> retaining balance. 
> 
>You mean "sticky". 
 
I didn't want to use sticky because it wouldn't necessarily affect the next  
person to touch the first victim, unless of course the second person also  
entered the zone. Perhaps a modified sticky advantage then, limited to only  
one transfer.... 
 
Or am I misremembering the rule?? 
 
Stephen 
 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams) 
Date: 11 Sep 97 20:10:16 GMT 
Subject: Re: The Name Game 
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com 
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Path: october!michael.adams 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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Ancient Martial Master 
(grin). 
 
Bruce Lee? 
 
 
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From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams) 
Date: 11 Sep 97 20:12:14 GMT 
Subject: Re: The Name Game 
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com 
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Path: october!michael.adams 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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Fire Ghost 
sort of a tongue in cheek, but.. 
 
 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams) 
Date: 11 Sep 97 20:22:52 GMT 
Subject: You know your a HERO player when 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
Path: october!michael.adams 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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Someone says SPD, and you know it is Speed, and you know it is not a drug. 
 
Mike Adams 
into humor of late. 
It helps make the belly gurgle less. 
 
 
 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams) 
Date: 11 Sep 97 20:27:18 GMT 
Subject: Re: 4 color principles 
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com 
X-Listname: Hero 
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Path: october!michael.adams 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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But it is a good point. Do you want realism, or do you want game play. 
 
If all you want is game play, then do the standard TV schtick and make them all 
employees of some extremely large, and mysterious coproration/governmental 
project, and leave it at that. But if you want realism, make them something 
more realistic. Such as a courier for UPS or something, nice if you have super 
speed or like. 
 
Neither rain, nor sleet, or nasty villiens will stop Postal Man, faster than 
overnight delivery, capable of dodging photon bolts, able to leap tall 
children. It is Postal Man, stamps are extra. 
 
 
Mike Adams 
 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams) 
Date: 11 Sep 97 20:31:10 GMT 
Subject: Books in Champions Universe 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
Path: october!michael.adams 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
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Anyone know of anyone who is doing such an idea. Might be fun. 
 
To have your favorite Chmapions superhero come to life. 
 
Maybe a weekend serial could come from it. 
 
Why not, after all, whay does Marvel/Dc have all the fun. Opps Marvel is 
bankrupt, and in court last I heard. Well.. 
 
Mike Adams 
 
Maybe have a contest to see who can provide the newest super hero, villien, 
gadget, etc for the comic series. 
 
 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (was Re: Powers difficult to emulate in Champions) 
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>>>>> "SM" == Steve McGinness <smcginn@csm.exeter.ac.uk> writes: 
 
SM> But this isn't really true to the nature of the medium. In a comic, 
SM> perhaps only 4 colour but comics all the same, you expect someone 
SM> entering a slippy patch to have trouble keeping their feet. 
 
This is completely situational.  Just as frequently the heroes use the 
environment to their advantage, performing "impossible" feats.  Flavor is, 
therefore, outside of the bounds of the power's definition. 
 
SM> It is true to the genre to give them a hard time. As you said, anyone 
SM> with acrobatics would have little problem given their +5 bonus and 
SM> extremely dextrous characters would also negotiate the hazard. 
 
Please note that I did not say this.  I said that characters with 
Acrobatics get the bonus, nothing else.  If you do not have Acrobatics you 
use Dexterity and you do not get the bonus. 
 
[...] 
 
SM> Thats right, but when you leave the slick or are expelled at speed onto 
SM> the road or into a wall uncontrolled then you are, again, going to be 
SM> in trouble. Uncontrolled spills are closest to KB damage in nature. 
 
More like a move-by or move through, I think. 
 
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 21:16:34 +0000 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (Here we go again, my 2 penneth) 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
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On 12 Sep 97 at 23:13, Chris Lynch wrote: 
 
> OK, how about this. 
>  
> ?d6 Drain against Speed 
> Ranged (+1/2) 
> Area effect=1 hex (+1/2) 
> Only effects wlakers/runners etc (-1/2) 
> 2 charges (-1 1/4) 
>  
> This only costs 2.5 points per die of drain. 
 
That's a pretty good one. However, its effect is to cancel phases  
only, and doesn't have effects such as falling down, or actions that  
are performed with difficulty. It also doesn't cover reduced  
abilities that _could_ still succeed, such as swinging a fist, which  
may be hampered but are not _necessarily_ disabling. 
 
Personally, I think that a new power would be a good idea. A DEX  
Suppress would work perfectly (using proper Advantages,  
Limitations, and the Hero System Almanac/ Champions III rules), but  
it is too expensive. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 21:16:35 +0000 
Subject: Re: HeroMaker 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
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On 12 Sep 97 at 23:15, Chris Lynch wrote: 
 
> Anyone know how I can get hold of a copy of HeroMaker in the UK? 
>  
> TTFN from Chris! 
> http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk  
 
Order it by credit card or check directly from Hero Games. For  
details, check out www.herogames.com. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: You know your a HERO player when 
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:15:15 -0400 (EDT) 
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> Someone says SPD, and you know it is Speed, and you know it is not a drug. 
>  
> Mike Adams 
> into humor of late. 
> It helps make the belly gurgle less. 
>  
>  
 
When you ask everyone you meet how many "Total Points" they are "built 
on". 
 
When you refer to your glasses as your "OIF Focus for Enhanced Normal 
Sight". 
 
-Eric (who is not on SPD) 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick 
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>>>>> "CL" == Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> writes: 
 
CL> The attackers OCV part simulates the attacks ability to "throw" the 
CL> ice/oil slick/spiky balls/marbles/melted chocolate under the oncoming 
CL> attack. 
 
Seeker scatters a handful of caltrops in one end of a corrider.  I do the 
same with a practically identical handful of caltrops down the other end. 
Five minutes later you walk through the corrider. 
 
Now tell me honestly that Seeker's caltrops are going to be more effective 
than mine because his OCV of 10+ is better than my 3 or maybe 4. 
 
[...] 
 
CL> And why, in your opinion, is it not a good idea to put advantages/ 
CL> disadvantages on skills? 
 
One, because skills are not powers.  Two, because even if skills are 
treated as powers, putting advantages on skills makes them extremely 
powerful for the cost compared to real powers. 
 
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Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 21:16:38 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> 
> NO. Allowing a single character two different NND attacks is 
> normally forbidden in Champions, and you want an infinite number of 
> NND attacks? 
 
	Of course, that said, I don't totally agree with that rule.  It is 
really up to character conception and cohesion.  However, for most 
practical purposes one is hard pressed to come up with more than one that 
fits a given SFX, except maybe for a gadgeteer-type. 
 
> Not in my world. 
 
 
	I've got to agree here, however. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 23:00:13 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (Here we go again, my 2 penneth) 
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>OK, how about this. 
> 
>?d6 Drain against Speed 
>Ranged (+1/2) 
>Area effect=1 hex (+1/2) 
>Only effects wlakers/runners etc (-1/2) 
>2 charges (-1 1/4) 
> 
>This only costs 2.5 points per die of drain. 
 
Horrors! HORRORS! Man, if you value your sanity, DON'T go using adjustment 
powers on SPD! 
 
>To justify this, think about oil slicks this way. 
>Vera the Villianous runs across Simon Slickboy's oil slick. She gets hit 
>with (lets say) 8 dice of Speed drain against her SPD of 4. 
> Lets say that Simon gets a median roll with these dice of 8*3=15. This 
>knocks her speed down to 1.6, which is played as 1. If this happens on 
>phase 3 (Veras first of the turn) she "looses" her next two phases as she 
>slips and slides around. 
 
Which sucks beyond all reason for gameplay purposes. You gotta sit down and 
recalculate when the player can act again. Plus, what's good for the goose 
is good for the gander - imagine villians with 10D6 SPD Aid. So GoonMaster 
(SPD 4) spends his first two phases Aiding himself to 10 SPD, then spends 
his last 4 phases Aiding 4 goons to an average of +3 SPD. Yikes. 
 
Or Dispel vs. SPD. Most people won't have more than 50-60 points in SPD (all 
told, figured and bought up). So I buy a 20D6 SPD Dispel (60 points) and 
whammo, I've just removed _all_ of my opponant's chances to act (their SPD 
won't come back until their next phase, but they don't have a next 
phase...and Dispel doesn't recover in post-phase 12 like drain does...isn't 
that nice :->). 
 
Note: This is illegal, but I'll let someone else tell you why :-). 
 
Anyway, the implications of SPD Aid/Drain/Transfer/Suppress are just so 
nasty I don't let anyone near them. It's better for the game, as well. 
People can take being knocked out. But getting Drained to 0 SPD, fully 
concious, twiddling their thumbs is just too much. 
 
And note that your SPD Drain wouldn't effect DEX - so the character can't 
act at 0 SPD, but still has full DCV??? <scratch head> 
 
>Next turn she goes up to speed 2.1, so she gets an 
>extra action this turn (as speed 2) but is still not sure of her footing. 
>And so on and so forth. 
> 
>This not only gives a decent simulation of what happens when you get hit 
>with an oilslick (happens down my street all the time...) but also defers 
>in favor of highspeed/ high dex characters who will regain their footing 
>faster. 
 
But it doesn't allow a high DEX character to avoid/ignore it completely - 
something that is common with the high-agility characters. 
 
 Also by using drain you get the common aftereffect that, even after 
>the villian has gotten out of the actual oil slick they still keep falling 
>over because they boots of evil are still coated with oil. It also 
>simulates what happens when fast moving vehicles hit oil slicks. 
 
No it doesn't. A running drain might - and even that doesn't simulate the 
loss of control. 
 
Throw is a mechanism that allows both: 
 
A.) bearing the person to the ground, and 
B.) tossing them a ways 
 
which is generally what the 'oil slick' does. So a throw-only TK is best in 
my books - if the person was moving at a good clip, it's a running throw, 
otherwise, a standing throw. The real problem here is cost (continious, AE 
telekinesis isn't cheap), but such is life. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!" 
-John comments on Feng Shui 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 23:08:27 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect 
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> Magic using character. Magic is a great special effect. It can 
> explain almost anything :-) 
 
	Not always well explained, however. 
 
> My character is a Green Lantern style magic user, except with a staff 
> instead of a ring. 
> 
> He has a 6d6 EB +2 variable advantage, OAF. Some would call variable 
> advantage a "no defense at all" attack. IMHO much less effective than 
> a 24d6 EB, which costs the same active points. 
 
 
	Of course, you wouldn't get either in my campaign, considering my 
60 Active Point limit.  I happen to like balance quite a bit. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:08:04 -0700 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when 
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Eric Burns wrote: 
> (Mike Adams wrote:) 
> > 
> > Someone says SPD, and you know it is Speed, and you know it is not a drug. 
> > 
 
>  
> When you ask everyone you meet how many "Total Points" they are "built 
> on". 
>  
> When you refer to your glasses as your "OIF Focus for Enhanced Normal 
> Sight". 
>  
> -Eric (who is not on SPD) 
 
  ...Instead of covering a friends eyes and saying "Guess Who?" you say 
"Make a perception roll" 
 
  ...During a snowball fight, you start cataloging who has a high DEX 
and who has skill levels. 
 
  ...You refer to your friends' and family's idiosyncracies as Psych 
Lims 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
 
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:22:06 -0700 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: XP Awards (was Re: NND & Variable special effect) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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> SurturZ wrote: 
> >This is my replacement character in a campaign I've been playing in 
> >for about 3 years now. We're up to around 300pt characters (although 
> >"Artifice" is built on 275). A testimony to the slow growth of 
> >characters in Champions (25 XP in three years? Sheesh! I guess we 
> >only play around four sessions a year). 
> > 
> >How many XP does everyone hand out? I usually award about 1XP/hr real 
> >time, with bonuses/penalties for roleplaying & ingenious play. 
> > 
> >(I think I'm rather generous with XP). 
> > 
 
   I base me XP awards partly on your basic list (did they win? did they 
play in-character? etc.) and partly on how much fun they brought to the 
game. 
   After a session - or a multi-session adventure(I never give out XP 
until an adventure is completed) - I generally award 3 XP per session 
(sessions last 4-6 hours, with 3-4 hours of legitimate gaming actually 
getting done), to all characters involved, then go through individually 
and award 1 or 2 more XP's to each player who brought an extra measure 
of fun to the game beyond simply playing their character. 
   On occasion, when a player makes a particularly astute observation 
(or a seemingly obvious one that EVERYONE else is missing with a 
vengeance), I will throw out an 'instant karma' XP on the spot, as I 
will if a player does or says something particularly unexpected or 
uniquely '4-coloured' which brings renewed energy to the game and/or 
group.  I've had one session where a player earned 6 or 7 points as 
compared to the others' 3 or 4.  The results of the overall enjoyment of 
the game to everyone was worth it. 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 07:24:30 -0400 
Subject: Re: Slick 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-9,11-12 
From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger) 
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 Aloha,  WillGGeiger@juno.com 
 
?d6 Suppress against DEX 
 
 Area effect=1 hex (+1/2) 
 0 END (+1/2) 
 Only effects walkers/runners etc (-1/2) 
 Not vs. successful DEX roll, targets w/Acrobatics @ +5 (-1 1/2) 
 
 This  costs less than 7 points per die of drain, and can be used 
infinite times.  
 I don't think it is too expensive. 
 
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:47:19 -0600 
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net> 
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect 
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Filksinger wrote: 
>  
> On 11 Sep 97 at 15:00, David Streeter wrote: 
>  
> > If I have an NND attack that also has variable special effects, 
> > should I be allowed to change the defense to the NND? 
>  
> NO. Allowing a single character two different NND attacks is 
> normally forbidden in Champions, and you want an infinite number of 
> NND attacks? 
>  
> Not in my world. 
 
In agreement here. However the sticky problem of NNDs and Pools comes 
up, and you get most of the same problems. The solution we have found is 
to allow multiple NNDs, with different Ds in general, but all of them 
must share at least _one_ Defence. The indidual NNDs have varient Ds 
dependent of the special effect of the attack, and the 'over Defence' is 
dependant of the Special Effect of the structure (Pool, Variable Effect 
ect) that allow the 'more than one NND'. 
 
Someone with a magic pool could have a number of special spells (ie a 
Vacuum spell (ie D= LS Breathe, a Heat Spell D= LS Heat ect) but all the 
NNDs have Any power D (which works well for a magic type). Thus a 
character could have one defence and stop all the NNDs the character 
has... 
 
Admittidly this is a bit of a kludge but it has helped so I thought I'd 
throw it out... 
 
-  
-Mhoram 
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 
 two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright 
 
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:54:22 -0600 
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net> 
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when 
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Captain Spith wrote: 
>  
> Eric Burns wrote: 
> > (Mike Adams wrote:) 
> > > 
> > > Someone says SPD, and you know it is Speed, and you know it is not a drug. 
> > > 
>  
> > 
> > When you ask everyone you meet how many "Total Points" they are "built 
> > on". 
> > 
> > When you refer to your glasses as your "OIF Focus for Enhanced Normal 
> > Sight". 
> > 
> > -Eric (who is not on SPD) 
>  
>   ...Instead of covering a friends eyes and saying "Guess Who?" you say 
> "Make a perception roll" 
>  
>   ...During a snowball fight, you start cataloging who has a high DEX 
> and who has skill levels. 
>  
>   ...You refer to your friends' and family's idiosyncracies as Psych 
> Lims 
 
Guilty of this one... 8) 
>  
> -- 
>    -Capt. Spith 
 
   ... you tell someone waiting, 'Be back in a segment'. 
 
   ... any movie seen is instantly catalogued as Wild Ninja Hero, 
Streetlevel, ect. 
 
   ... You refer to getting your second wind as 'taking a post 12'   
--  
-Mhoram 
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 
 two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <surturz@mail.zip.com.au> 
From: "David Streeter" <surturz@zip.com.au> 
Organization: Synchrotech Software 
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:12:09 +0000 
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect 
Reply-to: surturz@zip.com.au 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Priority: normal 
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On 11 Sep 97 at 21:16, Tim R. Gilberg rhetorically propounded: 
 
> > NO. Allowing a single character two different NND attacks is 
> > normally forbidden in Champions, and you want an infinite number of 
> > NND attacks? 
>  
> 	Of course, that said, I don't totally agree with that rule.  It is 
> really up to character conception and cohesion.  However, for most 
> practical purposes one is hard pressed to come up with more than one that 
> fits a given SFX, except maybe for a gadgeteer-type. 
 
Magic using character. Magic is a great special effect. It can  
explain almost anything :-) 
 
My character is a Green Lantern style magic user, except with a staff  
instead of a ring. 
 
He has a 6d6 EB +2 variable advantage, OAF. Some would call variable  
advantage a "no defense at all" attack. IMHO much less effective than  
a 24d6 EB, which costs the same active points. 
 
SurturZ 
 
-------------------------------------------------- 
David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au> 
Synchrotech Software  
Pager: Dial 016020 & Quote Pager #247689 to operator 
 
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:38:40 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when... 
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On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, David Fair wrote: 
 
>    ... you compile lists of people you meet whose names would sound good  
> on your PC's & NPC's (maybe that one's just me?) 
 
Nope, been there done that! 
 
Of course, then there is the case that every time you walk into a shopping 
mall you thin kabout how cool it would be to stage a superhero battler 
here... (Of course anyone who play Feng Shui also starts thinking about 
how cool it would be to have Chow Yun-Fat come diving through the plate 
glass swindow over there in slow motion with Both Guns Blazing...) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
X-Sender: piapps@cyberspace.org (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:00:48 -0700 
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com> 
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when... 
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At 10:38 AM 9/12/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, David Fair wrote: 
> 
>Of course, then there is the case that every time you walk into a shopping 
>mall you thin kabout how cool it would be to stage a superhero battler 
>here... (Of course anyone who play Feng Shui also starts thinking about 
>how cool it would be to have Chow Yun-Fat come diving through the plate 
>glass swindow over there in slow motion with Both Guns Blazing...) 
 
Been there and done that. :) 
 
On another note, I found some of my ShadowFist cards the other day, I still 
think any game with a card called 'Bag Full of Guns' has got to be cool. :) 
 
-Nic 
 
 
      +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ 
      |                        naneiden@iswest.com                         | 
      |               Justice, Like Lightning, Thunderbolts!               | 
      |         http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/thunder.html        | 
      |                         Costumed Heroines                          | 
      |          http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/index.html         | 
      +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ 
 
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when... 
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 10:10:00 -0500 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
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Mike Adams wrote: 
> Someone says SPD, and you know it is Speed, and you know it is not a drug. 
 
Eric Burns wrote: 
> When you ask everyone you meet how many "Total Points" they are "built 
> on". 
> When you refer to your glasses as your "OIF Focus for Enhanced Normal 
> Sight". 
 
Captain Spith wrote: 
 
>   ...Instead of covering a friends eyes and saying "Guess Who?" you say 
> "Make a perception roll" 
>   ...During a snowball fight, you start cataloging who has a high DEX 
> and who has skill levels. 
>   ...You refer to your friends' and family's idiosyncracies as Psych 
> Lims 
 
Curtis Gibson wrote: 
 
>   ... you tell someone waiting, 'Be back in a segment'. 
>   ... any movie seen is instantly catalogued as Wild Ninja Hero, 
> Streetlevel, ect. 
>   ... You refer to getting your second wind as 'taking a post 12'   
 
David Fair Adds His 2 cents: 
 
   ... you look for places to attach a swingline as you walk from your  
office to the Metro (or your car). 
   ... you compile lists of people you meet whose names would sound good  
on your PC's & NPC's (maybe that one's just me?) 
   ... you trip on a crack in the sidewalk you say "I'm OK, just failed  
my DEX roll" 
   ... you know what a photographic memory is _really_ called. (Eidetic  
Memory, in case you don't have one) 
 
The popularity of Windows surged in 1995, when  | 
Microsoft began shipping Windows 95, which      |  David A. Fair 
included many innovations that the Macintosh    |  SDS International 
had introduced 10 years earlier.                |  dfair@sdslink.com 
          - Reuters, Friday, July 18, 1997      | 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <surturz@mail.zip.com.au> 
From: "David Streeter" <surturz@zip.com.au> 
Organization: Synchrotech Software 
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:10:14 +0000 
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect 
Reply-to: surturz@zip.com.au 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Priority: normal 
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On 11 Sep 97 at 23:08, Tim R. Gilberg rhetorically propounded: 
 
>  
> > Magic using character. Magic is a great special effect. It can 
> > explain almost anything :-) 
>  
> 	Not always well explained, however. 
 
No explanation necessary. "It's magic!" :-) 
  
> > He has a 6d6 EB +2 variable advantage, OAF. Some would call variable 
> > advantage a "no defense at all" attack. IMHO much less effective than 
> > a 24d6 EB, which costs the same active points. 
>  
> 	Of course, you wouldn't get either in my campaign, considering my 
> 60 Active Point limit.  I happen to like balance quite a bit. 
 
This is my replacement character in a campaign I've been playing in  
for about 3 years now. We're up to around 300pt characters (although   
"Artifice" is built on 275). A testimony to the slow growth of  
characters in Champions (25 XP in three years? Sheesh! I guess we  
only play around four sessions a year). 
 
How many XP does everyone hand out? I usually award about 1XP/hr real  
time, with bonuses/penalties for roleplaying & ingenious play.  
 
(I think I'm rather generous with XP). 
 
David 
-------------------------------------------------- 
David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au> 
Synchrotech Software  
Pager: Dial 016020 & Quote Pager #247689 to operator 
 
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:55:07 -0400 
Subject: You know you're a HERO player when... 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-4,6,10-12 
From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger) 
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Every time you research, 
your sweetie says it is for gaming purposes. 
 
P.S.  She's right, of course 
 
Instant Karma: I like those Karma points earned through exceptional 
roleplaying 
 or the like, awarded on the fly and allowing a player to change his own 
die roll to a '1' or a '6'.  I would permit it to be spent this way 
during the same game session only.  If it was not spent, it becomes an 
XP. 
 
 Aloha,  WillGGeiger@juno.com 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:55:47 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Books in Champions Universe 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:44 AM 9/11/97 -0500, Bryce Berggren wrote: 
>At 08:31 PM 9/11/97 GMT, Michael Adams wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>>Anyone know of anyone who is doing such an idea. Might be fun. 
>> 
>>To have your favorite Chmapions superhero come to life. 
>> 
>>Maybe a weekend serial could come from it. 
>> 
>>Why not, after all, whay does Marvel/Dc have all the fun. Opps Marvel is 
>>bankrupt, and in court last I heard. Well.. 
> 
>Well, you did ask why not ... 
> 
>Because it's highly doubtful one could get any publisher to have enough 
>faith in the CU to back such projects; after all, not even Hero Games 
>themselves had faith in the CU's mass-market appeal, thus TNM. :-/ 
 
   It wasn't lack of faith that prevented the Hero guys from trying to get 
the Champions Universe developed into other media forms; it was the fact 
that they didn't own the rights to all of its institutions, PRIMUS being 
arguably the most notable case (as well as anything written by Aaron 
Allston).  I asked Steve P. point-blank in an email once, and that's what 
he told me (and it makes perfect sense). 
   Personally, I'm just wishing that they could've negotiated something 
with the copyright owners and/or done something a little more drastic.  I 
can't even get a straight answer from Steve about whether the old CU is 
going to be supported in Hero Plus materials. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg 
 
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:19:06 +1000 
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Books in Champions Universe 
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At 09:44 AM 9/11/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>At 08:31 PM 9/11/97 GMT, Michael Adams wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>>Anyone know of anyone who is doing such an idea. Might be fun. 
>> 
>>To have your favorite Chmapions superhero come to life. 
>> 
>>Maybe a weekend serial could come from it. 
>> 
>>Why not, after all, whay does Marvel/Dc have all the fun. Opps Marvel is 
>>bankrupt, and in court last I heard. Well.. 
> 
>Well, you did ask why not ... 
> 
>Because it's highly doubtful one could get any publisher to have enough 
>faith in the CU to back such projects; after all, not even Hero Games 
>themselves had faith in the CU's mass-market appeal, thus TNM. :-/ 
> 
> 
>H. G. 
> 
> 
 
 
hmm, okay, i vow to publish a champions comic in 2008 as well. Yeesh am *I* confident *l* 
 
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:34:39 +1000 
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect 
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At 03:10 PM 9/12/97 +0000, you wrote: 
>How many XP does everyone hand out? I usually award about 1XP/hr real  
>time, with bonuses/penalties for roleplaying & ingenious play.  
> 
>(I think I'm rather generous with XP). 
> 
>David 
 
 
As well as normaL stuff(3-4 for the adventure + 1 here and there), i give out (argh) combat xp, based on a straight combat points over combat points  
fraction. I found i had to do this to get a lot of the more progressive characters moving (i.e. new mutant types)  
 
 
 
 
 
>-------------------------------------------------- 
>David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au> 
>Synchrotech Software  
>Pager: Dial 016020 & Quote Pager #247689 to operator 
> 
 
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:42:59 +1000 
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when 
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At 03:08 AM 9/12/97 -0700, you wrote: 
>Eric Burns wrote: 
>> (Mike Adams wrote:) 
>> > 
>> > Someone says SPD, and you know it is Speed, and you know it is not a drug. 
>> > 
> 
>>  
>> When you ask everyone you meet how many "Total Points" they are "built 
>> on". 
>>  
>> When you refer to your glasses as your "OIF Focus for Enhanced Normal 
>> Sight". 
>>  
>> -Eric (who is not on SPD) 
> 
>  ...Instead of covering a friends eyes and saying "Guess Who?" you say 
>"Make a perception roll" 
> 
>  ...During a snowball fight, you start cataloging who has a high DEX 
>and who has skill levels. 
> 
>  ...You refer to your friends' and family's idiosyncracies as Psych 
>Lims 
> 
 
... you get annoyed in a fun run if your second wind doesn'y come ever 12 seconds. . 
 
... nobody else seems to understand what "ouch! nnd me will ya!" means.... 
 
... you don't understand how people can learn to play th piano without first saving a bunch of orphans from a burning building or at least beating up a thug  
 
 
 
 
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:56:35 +1000 
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when 
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At 06:54 AM 9/12/97 -0600, you wrote: 
>   ... you tell someone waiting, 'Be back in a segment'. 
> 
>   ... any movie seen is instantly catalogued as Wild Ninja Hero, 
>Streetlevel, ect. 
> 
 
true story, one of my d&d groups took one look at hero rules and started describing crappy martial arts movies in terms of dc, mostly wild negatives; 
 
'ooohh! davis carridine did his 360 crescent! what's that, a negative 600? ' 
 
 
 Thankfully the practice did not spread to our actual training. . *l*  
 
 
>   ... You refer to getting your second wind as 'taking a post 12'   
 
doh! beat me to it. . . 
 
 
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:58:03 +1000 
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when... 
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At 08:00 AM 9/12/97 -0700, you wrote: 
 
>On another note, I found some of my ShadowFist cards the other day, I still 
>think any game with a card called 'Bag Full of Guns' has got to be cool. :) 
> 
 
hmmm, i'm sure we're all aware of pc's with a vpp bought as this? *g* lot's of fun!  
 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:04:47 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:16 AM 9/9/97 -0500, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>At 11:42 AM 9/9/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>> Reality check:  Hero hasn't printed *anything* to make money.  If they 
>> had, I've little doubt that they would've given up long ago and 
>> concentrated on their *real* jobs, and the whole Hero System would be a 
>> fond memory. 
> 
>Return reality check: if Hero didn't give two bits about the money, they 
>wouldn't have bothered cashiering the HERO system for one they feel can 
>bring in a bigger market (Fuzion). Arguably, the HERO system IS just a fond 
>memory. 
 
   Well, at least they didn't call it "AfterHero" (the reference there 
being to AfterM*A*S*H and After Breakfast). 
 
>>   RPG publishing is not, on the whole, a big money-making venture for 
>>anyone (that's notwithstanding T$R, of course). 
> 
>You don't have to make big money to make money.  The question isn't whether 
>HSAs rake in the dough as whether it raked in more dough than not doing them. 
 
   There is that.  But there's also the artistic purpose of putting out a 
book of any type.  I doubt that they would've put out the HSAs (with 
apparent plans of doing more) if they weren't trying to expand the Hero 
System as a whole (the books' stated purpose).  Remember, these guys are 
writers and gamers, not television network programming executives.  They do 
have souls.  ;-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:06:54 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Extradimensional Bases 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:01 PM 9/9/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>The esteemed Mr. Greenwade wrote: 
>>At 03:28 PM 9/9/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>>   I'd go along with that YMMV.  OTOH, the XDM could be held by the base 
>>itself, at least if it was a Gate (and possibly otherwise) 
>> 
>ooo...  hmm...  Um, but how would you use that Gate to get to the base? 
>(Personally, I'm not familiar with the *exact* mechanics of the Gate, I 
>don't own Mystic Masters.)  I assume it would be very similar to the old JLA 
>satelite, with the teleporters, right? 
 
   That's the idea, at least; and I do think that the published mechanics 
are at least similar.  (I do happen to have access to my copy of Mystic 
Masters, but I'm too lazy to get up and go get it right at the moment.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg 
 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (Here we go again, my 2 penneth) 
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:13:21 +0100 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.0544.0 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
OK, how about this. 
 
?d6 Drain against Speed 
Ranged (+1/2) 
Area effect=1 hex (+1/2) 
Only effects wlakers/runners etc (-1/2) 
2 charges (-1 1/4) 
 
This only costs 2.5 points per die of drain. 
 
To justify this, think about oil slicks this way. 
Vera the Villianous runs across Simon Slickboy's oil slick. She gets hit 
with (lets say) 8 dice of Speed drain against her SPD of 4. 
 Lets say that Simon gets a median roll with these dice of 8*3=15. This 
knocks her speed down to 1.6, which is played as 1. If this happens on 
phase 3 (Veras first of the turn) she "looses" her next two phases as she 
slips and slides around. Next turn she goes up to speed 2.1, so she gets an 
extra action this turn (as speed 2) but is still not sure of her footing. 
And so on and so forth. 
 
This not only gives a decent simulation of what happens when you get hit 
with an oilslick (happens down my street all the time...) but also defers 
in favor of highspeed/ high dex characters who will regain their footing 
faster. Also by using drain you get the common aftereffect that, even after 
the villian has gotten out of the actual oil slick they still keep falling 
over because they boots of evil are still coated with oil. It also 
simulates what happens when fast moving vehicles hit oil slicks. The 
vehicle keeps moving at it's current speed, but cannot manuveure (or only 
handles very sluggishly) because it's speed has been drained (Lesson for 
life, never move noncombat in combat!) 
 
Comments awaited with a due fear of dread and trepidation. 
 
TTFN from Chris! 
http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk  
 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
Subject: HeroMaker 
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:15:59 +0100 
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Anyone know how I can get hold of a copy of HeroMaker in the UK? 
 
TTFN from Chris! 
http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk  
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:22:50 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Vehicles and bases 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:59 PM 9/10/97 +0100, Chris Lynch wrote: 
>Maybe I have a mental block, maybe I just can't find this in the rule book 
>or perhaps (Gasp...) it has never been written down. 
> 
>Will someone please remind me what happens (or at least what they do) when 
>a base or vehicle gets destroyed? It is a case of independance and the 
>points are just lost... or will the base/vehicle "rise again" for the next 
>adventure? 
 
   Treat it like a Follower.  The vehicle/base is gone, but can be replaced 
with a new one in a reasonable period of time using the same points. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:34:56 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:08 AM 9/12/97 -0700, Captain Spith wrote: 
>  ...Instead of covering a friends eyes and saying "Guess Who?" you say 
>"Make a perception roll" 
> 
>  ...During a snowball fight, you start cataloging who has a high DEX 
>and who has skill levels. 
> 
>  ...You refer to your friends' and family's idiosyncracies as Psych 
>Lims 
 
   ...what's going through your mind during a movie is what each 
character's Characteristics, Skills, and Disadvantages would be. 
 
   ...you count off segments when watching an action sequence. 
 
   ...you tune in a martial arts tournament just to see what hwarang-do 
actually looks like. 
 
   ...you're being hurried by someone and you ask for one extra level on 
the Time Chart. 
 
   ...you express your computer's speed as a one-digit number that is not 
in Megahertz. 
 
   ...someone in an AOL chat room offers you a a celebrity nude pic and you 
ask for Quantum. 
 
   ...your computer's hard disk has more space devoted to CHA files than 
EXE files. 
 
   ...your line of thought when vacationing is what would be a cool place 
to stage a superhero battle.  (Side note:  the tide pools at Yaquina Head 
just north of Newport, Oregon would be an *excellent* locale!) 
 
   ...someone mentions four armed guards, and you wonder how many there are 
and whether they have weapons.  (You may have to read that one multiple 
times to understand it.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg 
 
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:01:00 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:34 PM 9/12/97 -0700, you wrote: 
> 
>   ...you tune in a martial arts tournament just to see what hwarang-do 
>actually looks like. 
> 
 
hey!! i DO hwa rang do! and it happens to look really cool- of course it's completely differnt from hawrang do, which is different again from hwarangdo, which is different again from whorangbob *l* 
. .   . .where'd you get hwa rang do, from UMA? or ninja's and super spies?  
 
 
> 
 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 19:22:18 -0400 
Subject: Re: Slick, Champs comics 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-16 
From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
About 12 years ago, there was a Champions comic book series pubished by 
Eclipse, starring Giant, Marksman, Rose, etc.  It included character 
write-ups and Danger Rooms, and I liked it. 
 
Come to think of it, this costs 3 1/3 points per die of Suppress <ahem> 
 Aloha,  WillGGeiger@juno.com 
 
 ?d6 Suppress against DEX 
> 
> Area effect=1 hex (+1/2) 
> 0 END (+1/2) 
> Only effects walkers/runners etc (-1/2) 
> Not vs. successful DEX roll, targets w/Acrobatics @ +5 (-1 1/2) 
> 
> This  costs less than 7 points per die of drain, and can be used  
>infinite times.  
> I don't think it is too expensive. 
 
X-Sender: piapps@cyberspace.org (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:36:04 -0700 
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com> 
Subject: Re: Slick, Champs comics 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I found one issue of this comic recently. It featured Flare, Icicle and 
Foxbat. 
 
-Nic 
 
At 07:22 PM 9/12/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>About 12 years ago, there was a Champions comic book series pubished by 
>Eclipse, starring Giant, Marksman, Rose, etc.  It included character 
>write-ups and Danger Rooms, and I liked it. 
> 
>Come to think of it, this costs 3 1/3 points per die of Suppress <ahem> 
> Aloha,  WillGGeiger@juno.com 
> 
> ?d6 Suppress against DEX 
>> 
>> Area effect=1 hex (+1/2) 
>> 0 END (+1/2) 
>> Only effects walkers/runners etc (-1/2) 
>> Not vs. successful DEX roll, targets w/Acrobatics @ +5 (-1 1/2) 
>> 
>> This  costs less than 7 points per die of drain, and can be used  
>>infinite times.  
>> I don't think it is too expensive. 
> 
> 
 
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford) 
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect 
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:23:09 GMT 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:47:19 -0600, you wrote: 
 
 
>In agreement here. However the sticky problem of NNDs and Pools comes 
>up, and you get most of the same problems. The solution we have found is 
>to allow multiple NNDs, with different Ds in general, but all of them 
>must share at least _one_ Defence. The indidual NNDs have varient Ds 
>dependent of the special effect of the attack, and the 'over Defence' is 
>dependant of the Special Effect of the structure (Pool, Variable Effect 
>ect) that allow the 'more than one NND'. 
> 
>Someone with a magic pool could have a number of special spells (ie a 
>Vacuum spell (ie D= LS Breathe, a Heat Spell D= LS Heat ect) but all the 
>NNDs have Any power D (which works well for a magic type). Thus a 
>character could have one defence and stop all the NNDs the character 
>has... 
 
I allow characters to have multiple NND attacks without a uniform 
defense. They have to fit the character concept very closely, though 
or I won't allow them in the first place.  
 
Villains, however, depending on their concept, often can have such 
attacks. Once the heroes know what to expect, though, this information 
can be used to their advantage. I've had villains that had NND attacks 
with a defense of "not having a forcefield" be totally outfoxed when 
force-field using heroes turn them OFF.  
 
Yeah I know, it's dangerous if there's someone else around shooting at 
them. It's a tough life but with great power comes great 
responsibility... 
 
John Lansford 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford) 
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:28:29 GMT 
X-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
X-Smtp-Ip-Host: elvis.vnet.net ip 166.82.1.5 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
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On 11 Sep 97 20:22:52 GMT, you wrote: 
 
> 
> 
>Someone says SPD, and you know it is Speed, and you know it is not a drug. 
 
You calculate your own statistics and wish your personal STR were just 
a point or two higher 
 
You write vacation spots for brochures to use in your campaign, not to 
plan a vacation with (I did this for New Orleans) 
 
You judge building materials on how much knockback they subtract off 
before getting knocked through them 
 
John Lansford 
 
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford) 
Subject: Re: Slick, Champs comics 
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:32:32 GMT 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:36:04 -0700, you wrote: 
 
>I found one issue of this comic recently. It featured Flare, Icicle and 
>Foxbat. 
> 
The comic was drawn in black and white and had some of the younger 
heroes related to the original Heroes. Icicle's younger sister was in 
it, as was Flare's sister. It was fairly well done although the sexual 
aspects between some of the women was gone into more than needed IMO. 
 
John Lansford 
 
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:48:12 -0400 
Subject: Re: Champs comics 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 4-6 
From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
There were several Champions comics series.  The first was a four issue 
miniseries.  This and the following regular series were in color, as were 
some subsequent issues.  These first two series were the Eclipse 
publications, and had no sexual content.  Those were introduced in the 
Flare title, which lacked Champion stats. 
 
 Aloha,  WillGGeiger@juno.com 
 
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:33:30 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Devan <rlewis@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, John Lansford wrote: 
 
> You calculate your own statistics and wish your personal STR were just 
> a point or two higher 
 
Or possibly... 
 
You keep thinking, "Damn, I've got all these disadvantages.. Where the hell 
did I spend my points?" 
 
-- D 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Devan <rlewis@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu> 
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:33:30 -0500 (CDT) 
X-To: Multiple recipients of Hero <hero-l@october.com> 
X-Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when 
X-Listname: Hero 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
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On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, John Lansford wrote: 
 
> You calculate your own statistics and wish your personal STR were just 
> a point or two higher 
 
Or possibly... 
 
You keep thinking, "Damn, I've got all these disadvantages.. Where the hell 
did I spend my points?" 
 
-- D 
 
 
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:41:26 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Devan wrote: 
 
>  
> On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, John Lansford wrote: 
>  
> > You calculate your own statistics and wish your personal STR were just 
> > a point or two higher 
>  
> Or possibly... 
>  
> You keep thinking, "Damn, I've got all these disadvantages.. Where the hell 
> did I spend my points?" 
 
Or that all you *really* had to do in order to learn a new language (like 
Japanese) is spend a coupla points somewhere... 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:12:20 -0700 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com 
Subject: (Genre Question) Teen Aged Heroes. Is it a viable construct 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
    There are several examples of this in the genre. 
 
    New Mutants, Teen Titans, DNAgents, Gen 13, 
Generation X, X Force. 
 
    Gaming gives us Arcadian Academy, Scions of Cain, 
and I know of two PBeM's devoted to the subject. For 
those who don't know, the first two are from Fuzion, 
the second two are Champions PBeM's. 
 
    The question here remains however, is this a viable 
concept. The idea of a group of teenage Super-Heroes. 
What ought to happen to people of such an age in a 
Super-Universe. 
 
    Obviously, they shouldn't be out in the open battling 
Galactus, that seems the role of the adults... 
 
    So is the idea of such a Super Team viable. What would 
they do? What should they not do? How would adult 
society deal with them? Why would they exist as a super 
hero team? What would hold them together? How would 
they pull it off? 
 
    What kind of adventures would make sense for them? 
 
-- 
Rook 
Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC 
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system 
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all) 
 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at 
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html 
 
 
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 16:15:31 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: (Genre Question) Teen Aged Heroes. Is it a viable construct 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:12 PM 9/12/97 -0700, you wrote: 
>    There are several examples of this in the genre. 
> 
>    New Mutants, Teen Titans, DNAgents, Gen 13, 
>Generation X, X Force. 
> 
>    Gaming gives us Arcadian Academy, Scions of Cain, 
>and I know of two PBeM's devoted to the subject. For 
>those who don't know, the first two are from Fuzion, 
>the second two are Champions PBeM's. 
> 
>    The question here remains however, is this a viable 
>concept. The idea of a group of teenage Super-Heroes. 
>What ought to happen to people of such an age in a 
>Super-Universe. 
> 
 
i have an npc villan 'teen team' which centers around the idea that the 'kids'  
useing media savvy and a fair amount of mind cotrol, get off scott free from all their crimes. They're basically immature spoilt brats who don't want to grow up, apart from their psycic leader.  
 
I also had a teenager 'subteam' within a goverment superteam i built- the teens were ther pc's - basically it was the 'southern cross', meant to be australias super team, but they couldn't get hold of many adult powerful supers. So they ended having these three teenagers, pretty powerful teamed with a trio of slightly sinister old-timers, but operating as their own team.  
 
 
>    Obviously, they shouldn't be out in the open battling 
>Galactus, that seems the role of the adults... 
> 
>    So is the idea of such a Super Team viable. What would 
>they do? What should they not do? How would adult 
>society deal with them? Why would they exist as a super 
>hero team? What would hold them together? How would 
>they pull it off? 
> 
 
well i can see a few possiblilities- uall should be able to recognise them...  
 
Guardian: The group has some sort of clear adult guardian, like banshee of magnus. The idea is that they are students, although the guardian could be an AI computer, a familiiar, or even a wierd mystical visitation. . . .  
 
Renegades: The group could be 'on the run' from some authority group- hence they are outlaws to some degree, so any contradictions can be used as plot devices- how do they survive? aer they actually physically 'on the run'?, or just an underground goup in some way? 
 
Subgroup: The group is under the semi-supervision of a group of adult supers. This leads to interesting friction, as well as quite a lot of potential plots- but it's important to balance the pc's with the elders against the pc's on their own,.  
 
Institution: this is a setting concept- imagine a world where all younge mutants (psi, whatever) had to attend an accadamy, with different classes being different 'teams'. 
Hence there can be everything from road-trips to actual fights, but it does require a different setting. . .  
 
 
 
>    What kind of adventures would make sense for them? 
> 
 
 
well,  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
>-- 
>Rook 
>Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC 
>herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system 
>Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all) 
> 
>Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
>http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
> 
>Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at 
>http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html 
> 
> 
> 
 
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:17:40 -0700 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Karma & XP Awards  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Chris Lynch wrote: 
 
> I keeping with the use of "Karma" XP I too give out XP on the fly 
> throughout the game. I also have a little set of house rules (nothing 
> formal, but all the players know how it works!). As you are earning XP on 
> the fly you can not only spend them on the fly (so long as they don't spend 
> half an hour with a calculator trying to buy a 2d6HKA sword from Yan's 
> Martial Arts-O-Rama with 2 XP.) 
>  
> They can also play them to one of the three following things: 
> 1: Get an instant "6" result as if they had luck dice (even if they did not 
> have luck). 
> 2: Buy a 6 result on a die roll (only their own!) 
> 3: Buy a 1 result on a die roll (yes, still only thier own!) 
>  
> This system may seems stretching the mechanics of the game a bit, but I was 
> inspired by the Karma system in Marvel SuperHeroes. This way, you risk your 
> life to rescue ol' Granny Mac from the speeding Mac Truck (putting yourself 
> in a severe disadvatage as you are currently fighting 10 of Dr.Manic's 
> eveil henchmonkeys). You get an XP. This XP later helps you out when you 
> REALLY need to catch hold of that bush as you fall head long off a cliff 
> (from which you were pushed by ol' Granny Mac who turns out to be an 
> extradimensional kinetic impact absorbing being who needed to absorb the 
> impact from the truck to open a portal back to her own dimension which can 
> only be attempted once every 1000 years...). 
>  
> To make this system more fun however, I am deliberatly erratic with when I 
> give out these points (some Grannys need to get hit by the odd truck now 
> and then). 
 
   My old gaming group from college used to have the house rule that 
whenever a natural "3" was rolled (during a legitimate combat or skill 
roll), the player received a 'Hero Point' which (s)he would save and 
hoard until such time as they needed a l'il help. 
   The Hero Point would allow the adjustment of any skill roll by 1 to 
turn a miss (or fail) into a hit (or success).  If a player had saved up 
3 Hero Points, all three *could* be used at once to adjust a roll by 3, 
but natural 3's just don't come by that often. 
   Though it doesn't seem like a very big bonus, there are definitely 
times when a particularly important roll could use a tiny adjustment for 
big results.  Besides, it was a completely free bonus, and its limited 
use kept people from constantly trying to overuse or take advantage of 
the mechanic. 
   I think there was actually once when the GM decided that a certain 
task was ruled impossible (no automatic success on '3'), and told the 
player that he needed a '1' to succeed.  Well, the player tried anyway 
and rolled a natural 3, so he used a saved Hero Point, plus the one 
received just then by the 3 and lowered the result to 1.  The GM had to 
concede, since he had claimed that a 1 would succeed.... 
 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 15:37:16 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: XP Awards (was Re: NND & Variable special effect) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>SurturZ wrote: 
>>This is my replacement character in a campaign I've been playing in  
>>for about 3 years now. We're up to around 300pt characters (although   
>>"Artifice" is built on 275). A testimony to the slow growth of  
>>characters in Champions (25 XP in three years? Sheesh! I guess we  
>>only play around four sessions a year). 
>> 
>>How many XP does everyone hand out? I usually award about 1XP/hr real  
>>time, with bonuses/penalties for roleplaying & ingenious play.  
>> 
>>(I think I'm rather generous with XP). 
>> 
>I think most on the list would agree (about the generous bit).  I asked 
relatively the same >question when I got on the list last semester, and I 
got some pretty good guidelines.  Give >me some time, and I'll sort through 
the responses and post the highlights. 
>        I really only GM, the one character that a player has is up to 324 
(+3 unspent).  And >he's been playing him under me for 4-5 years (he started 
at 250).  This is the player who Solo >adventures *all* the time.  Then 
again, it's only been 4-5 game *months*...  <sigh> 
>        The last games I ran at home (before I came back to ol' vt.edu) I 
gave out 1 XP/session, >to standardize the characters a bit.  No one (but 
the guy I mentioned above : )  seemed to >mind. 
> 
>- Jerry 
Okay, here's some collation from last semester: 
Eric F. <ericf@navicom.com> said: 
>  I played in a face-to-face Champions campaign, where we usually got 3 xp 
per session (i.e., >every time we played), & we played every other Saturday... 
Mark <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> said: 
>  It depends on how fast you want the character's to grow...  think about 
awarding one or two >eeps that are for whatever and then assign some eeps to 
areas where you feel the PC's will >learn.  (They spend on month in France. 
They might pick up a point of French.) 
>  The other consideration is how many times you play, etc...  If you missed 
a bunch of >games, your character would fall behind in power level. 
Vance Scott (Vanquisher of all foes.) <vances@sympatico.ca> wrote: 
>  One point per session for me, plus bonus points per scenario. 
Opal <Opal@october.com> told me: 
>  Two experience is good for a short game like that [referring to my 3-4 
hour sessions!].  I >generally assume that and adventure that goes more than 
a session or two is 'long' so I >almost always give out eeps every session 
and give out more when major objective are >accomplished (up to 5). 
Chuff78002 <Chuff78002@aol.com> wrote: 
>  3 to 4 for a four hour session.....most dm's I know actually award just 1 
xp point per session >as standard, with extra points awarded for tactics, 
role-play etc. 
>  These points are usually stored until the dm actually says WHEN we can 
spend 'em... 
>  I usually use the above system myself.  Some people may think it's a tad 
hard to advance >but it means that nobody gets TOO powerful too soon.  ...I 
personally have no complaints at >all.  It means you have extra time to 
develop the character skill wise etc. 
Chan <ChanFaunce@aol.com> informed me: 
>  I genergally give out 1 cp per session (aprox. 5 hours) +1 cp for 
completion of major >objective. I also reward 1 cp for major Tick Moments. 
The esteemed Mr. Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> sez: 
>  About two to three per session is probably about right, especially if you 
play once a week, >as most groups do; it could even be considered high. 
However, you [me!] mentioned in >another post that you play every two to 
three weeks, so you might even be able to get away >with going up to 
averaging 4 per session. 
 
This being said, I have used really three different (but similar) systems, 
which overlapped... 
 
1)  Started as 1 xp/session, +1 if it was especially long or the players 
were being really cool (kind of how I interpret playing well; if I had a 
good time...). 
This kind of morphed into... 
2)  2 xp/session, +1 if we played all night, +1 if the individual players 
were cool and/or funny, +1 for giving me cool drawings/backgrounds of the 
characters/events (one of the guys does *lovely* Anime-esque art, and I've 
had to cut that bonus back slightly). 
3) Flat, 1 xp/session (my most recent game, with the most players. 
 
With 1, I was just starting out, and simply used the table in the back of 
the book.  At 2, some of the players complained that they weren't advancing 
fast enough, and I didn't want unhappy players.  Also, S. John Ross told me 
of his "Bonus Starting Character Points" system (I don't think that's what 
he calls it) that he uses in GURPS.  He awards extra points *at character 
creation* for things like: character sketch/full description (at least a 
page, I believe); promise to do a character diary/log/chronicle, in 
character; and some other things, I forgot, I'll ask John.  3 was my most 
recent game, with the most players, and I didn't want to "play favorites" or 
upset anyone.  Plus, most of them were still exploring the system and the 
novelty of just playing their characters in this "new" (to them) system was 
enough. 
 
- Jerry 
 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
MMDF-Warning:  Parse error in original version of preceding line at punt-1.mail.demon.net 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (Here we go again, my 2 penneth) 
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:28:46 +0100 
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>On 12 Sep 97 at 23:13, Chris Lynch wrote: 
> 
>> OK, how about this. 
>> 
>> ?d6 Drain against Speed 
>> Ranged (+1/2) 
>> Area effect=1 hex (+1/2) 
>> Only effects wlakers/runners etc (-1/2) 
>> 2 charges (-1 1/4) 
>> 
> 
>That's a pretty good one. However, its effect is to cancel phases 
>only, and doesn't have effects such as falling down, or actions that 
>are performed with difficulty. It also doesn't cover reduced 
>abilities that _could_ still succeed, such as swinging a fist, which 
>may be hampered but are not _necessarily_ disabling. 
> 
>Personally, I think that a new power would be a good idea. A DEX 
>Suppress would work perfectly (using proper Advantages, 
>Limitations, and the Hero System Almanac/ Champions III rules), but 
>it is too expensive. 
 
> 
>Filksinger 
 
OK, so if I drained your DEX way down, would this be allowed to affect your 
SPD as well (as it's a figured characterstic from DEX) I certainly wouldn't 
allow it, but would any of you?? 
The same basic framework would work if you drained DEX instead of SPD 
though, with roughly similar effects. However, instead of loosing the 
ability to perform actions, the victim just finds it very difficult to 
perform those same actions. 
 
TTFN from Chris! 
http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk 
 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
MMDF-Warning:  Parse error in original version of preceding line at punt-1.mail.demon.net 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (Here we go again, my 2 penneth) 
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:44:24 +0100 
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>>OK, how about this. 
>> 
>>?d6 Drain against Speed 
>>Ranged (+1/2) 
>>Area effect=1 hex (+1/2) 
>>Only effects wlakers/runners etc (-1/2) 
>>2 charges (-1 1/4) 
>> 
>>This only costs 2.5 points per die of drain. 
> 
>Horrors! HORRORS! Man, if you value your sanity, DON'T go using 
adjustment 
>powers on SPD! 
 
My sanity is my business thanks. I would prefer to spend a little extra 
time with my calculator for the sake of a working framework for this kind 
of game. 
 
>>To justify this, think about oil slicks this way. 
>>Vera the Villianous runs across Simon Slickboy's oil slick. She gets hit 
>>with (lets say) 8 dice of Speed drain against her SPD of 4. 
>> Lets say that Simon gets a median roll with these dice of 8*3=15. This 
>>knocks her speed down to 1.6, which is played as 1. If this happens on 
>>phase 3 (Veras first of the turn) she "looses" her next two phases as 
she 
>>slips and slides around. 
> 
>Which sucks beyond all reason for gameplay purposes. You gotta sit down 
and 
>recalculate when the player can act again. Plus, what's good for the 
goose 
>is good for the gander - imagine villians with 10D6 SPD Aid. So 
GoonMaster 
>(SPD 4) spends his first two phases Aiding himself to 10 SPD, then spends 
>his last 4 phases Aiding 4 goons to an average of +3 SPD. Yikes. 
 
Your point being? Personally I would see this as an ideal opportunity for 
my PC's to have to come up with an inovative strategy to beat this 
superfast villian and his speedy minions. I am assuming that Goonmaster has 
spend the necessary points on increasing the maximum amount that he can aid 
to achieve all this right???! 
 
>Or Dispel vs. SPD. Most people won't have more than 50-60 points in SPD 
(all 
>told, figured and bought up). So I buy a 20D6 SPD Dispel (60 points) and 
>whammo, I've just removed _all_ of my opponant's chances to act (their 
SPD 
>won't come back until their next phase, but they don't have a next 
>phase...and Dispel doesn't recover in post-phase 12 like drain 
does...isn't 
>that nice :->). 
> 
I know full well thankyou that the lowest speed you are allowed is 1 no 
matter what. I had considered this. No matter how slippy the oil slick even 
AbbotandCostelloMan will get out of it eventually. 
 
>Anyway, the implications of SPD Aid/Drain/Transfer/Suppress are just so 
>nasty I don't let anyone near them. It's better for the game, as well. 
>People can take being knocked out. But getting Drained to 0 SPD, fully 
>concious, twiddling their thumbs is just too much. 
 
You pays your points and you takes your chances. 
 
>And note that your SPD Drain wouldn't effect DEX - so the character can't 
>act at 0 SPD, but still has full DCV??? <scratch head> 
 
Oh but she DOES act. She trys to regain her footing (an instinctive 
reaction when your footing is suddenly undermined). As much as she wanted 
to fire her photonic NRG blaster (TM patentpending) she was too busy going 
"Whoops!" 
 
>>Next turn she goes up to speed 2.1, so she gets an 
>>extra action this turn (as speed 2) but is still not sure of her 
footing. 
>>And so on and so forth. 
>> 
>>This not only gives a decent simulation of what happens when you get hit 
>>with an oilslick (happens down my street all the time...) but also 
defers 
>>in favor of highspeed/ high dex characters who will regain their footing 
>>faster. 
> 
>But it doesn't allow a high DEX character to avoid/ignore it completely - 
>something that is common with the high-agility characters. 
 
High DEX's usually equate to high speeds, so these characters are effected 
less. Of course they are still effected. Even the Flash falls over. Quite a 
bit actually.... 
 
> Also by using drain you get the common aftereffect that, even after 
>>the villian has gotten out of the actual oil slick they still keep 
falling 
>>over because they boots of evil are still coated with oil. It also 
>>simulates what happens when fast moving vehicles hit oil slicks. 
> 
>No it doesn't. A running drain might - and even that doesn't simulate the 
>loss of control. 
> 
Of course it does! But my mechanism is looking at the effects after you 
step OUT of the slick. Mud sticks as they say.... 
  
>Throw is a mechanism that allows both: 
> 
>A.) bearing the person to the ground, and 
>B.) tossing them a ways 
> 
>which is generally what the 'oil slick' does. So a throw-only TK is best 
in 
>my books - if the person was moving at a good clip, it's a running throw, 
>otherwise, a standing throw. The real problem here is cost (continious, 
AE 
>telekinesis isn't cheap), but such is life. 
> 
Much better off buying a martial throw with lasting charges, area effect 
and range. (But there are problems with this too. It's redeeming feature? 
It's cheap!) 
 
 
TTFN from Chris! 
http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk 
 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
MMDF-Warning:  Parse error in original version of preceding line at punt-1.mail.demon.net 
Subject: Re: XP Awards (was Re: NND & Variable special effect) 
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:59:39 +0100 
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 ---- 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
Date: 12 September 1997 12:32 
Subject: Re: XP Awards (was Re: NND & Variable special effect) 
>   On occasion, when a player makes a particularly astute observation 
>(or a seemingly obvious one that EVERYONE else is missing with a 
>vengeance), I will throw out an 'instant karma' XP on the spot, as I 
>will if a player does or says something particularly unexpected or 
>uniquely '4-coloured' which brings renewed energy to the game and/or 
>group.  I've had one session where a player earned 6 or 7 points as 
>compared to the others' 3 or 4.  The results of the overall enjoyment of 
>the game to everyone was worth it. 
> 
>-- 
>   -Capt. Spith 
>   Savior of Humanity 
>   Secular Messiah 
>  
I keeping with the use of "Karma" XP I too give out XP on the fly 
throughout the game. I also have a little set of house rules (nothing 
formal, but all the players know how it works!). As you are earning XP on 
the fly you can not only spend them on the fly (so long as they don't spend 
half an hour with a calculator trying to buy a 2d6HKA sword from Yan's 
Martial Arts-O-Rama with 2 XP.) 
 
They can also play them to one of the three following things: 
1: Get an instant "6" result as if they had luck dice (even if they did not 
have luck). 
2: Buy a 6 result on a die roll (only their own!) 
3: Buy a 1 result on a die roll (yes, still only thier own!) 
 
This system may seems stretching the mechanics of the game a bit, but I was 
inspired by the Karma system in Marvel SuperHeroes. This way, you risk your 
life to rescue ol' Granny Mac from the speeding Mac Truck (putting yourself 
in a severe disadvatage as you are currently fighting 10 of Dr.Manic's 
eveil henchmonkeys). You get an XP. This XP later helps you out when you 
REALLY need to catch hold of that bush as you fall head long off a cliff 
(from which you were pushed by ol' Granny Mac who turns out to be an 
extradimensional kinetic impact absorbing being who needed to absorb the 
impact from the truck to open a portal back to her own dimension which can 
only be attempted once every 1000 years...). 
 
To make this system more fun however, I am deliberatly erratic with when I 
give out these points (some Grannys need to get hit by the odd truck now 
and then). 
 
What do you think??? 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:02:00 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:01 AM 9/13/97 +1000, happyelf! wrote: 
>At 03:34 PM 9/12/97 -0700, you wrote: 
>> 
>>   ...you tune in a martial arts tournament just to see what hwarang-do 
>>actually looks like. 
>> 
> 
>hey!! i DO hwa rang do! and it happens to look really cool- of course it's 
completely differnt from hawrang do, which is different again from 
hwarangdo, which is different again from whorangbob *l* 
>. .   . .where'd you get hwa rang do, from UMA? or ninja's and super spies?  
 
   UMA.  I'm still waiting for the $$$ to afford NSS (and other Palladium 
modern-day materials, HU/VU/AU; I want to use it as a parallel universe). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:10:04 -0500 
From: Tim Palmore <valiant@destin.gulfnet.com> 
Subject: Re: (Genre Question) Teen Aged Heroes. Is it a viable construct 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Rook wrote: 
 
>     There are several examples of this in the genre. 
> 
>     New Mutants, Teen Titans, DNAgents, Gen 13, 
> Generation X, X Force. 
> 
>     Gaming gives us Arcadian Academy, Scions of Cain, 
> and I know of two PBeM's devoted to the subject. For 
> those who don't know, the first two are from Fuzion, 
> the second two are Champions PBeM's. 
> 
>     The question here remains however, is this a viable 
> concept. The idea of a group of teenage Super-Heroes. 
> What ought to happen to people of such an age in a 
> Super-Universe. 
> 
>     Obviously, they shouldn't be out in the open battling 
> Galactus, that seems the role of the adults... 
> 
>     So is the idea of such a Super Team viable. What would 
> they do? What should they not do? How would adult 
> society deal with them? Why would they exist as a super 
> hero team? What would hold them together? How would 
> they pull it off? 
 
   All this would depend on the attitude of the 'dults, and other people 
in charge of the world.  Obviously if the attitudes were similar to what 
we see in real life it would be difficult to pull it off.  Perhaps as an 
underground organization or a group of gang members tired of the way 
life is on the street. 
 
> 
> 
>     What kind of adventures would make sense for them? 
 
       For adventures that would make sense, here is my chance to plug 
one of my favorite comics on a similar genre.  It's from Acclaim Comics, 
Troublemakers. 
 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Rook 
> Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC 
> herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system 
> Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all) 
> 
> Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
> http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
> 
> Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at 
> http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html 
 
 
 
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 11:24:50 -0700 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
David Streeter wrote: 
>  
> If I have an NND attack that also has variable special effects, 
> should I be allowed to change the defense to the NND? 
>  
> My thinking is that I should, provided the VSFX is the +1/2 level 
> (rather than the +1/4 ice spear/ice hammer/fire hammer/fire spear 
> level) 
>  
> SurturZ 
 
   I would have to say that an NND with Variable SFX would need to be 
limited to the +1/4 level of limited SFX, and have a set of defenses 
which are - if not actually the same - very similar. 
 
   As for having multiple NND attacks, I would have to let a 
gadgeteer-type have them if (s)he could rationalize them well, but a 
'natural' powered character would have to have a *darn* good reason 
(which would not - in my pervue - be easy). 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 15:09:14 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Wayne J Shaw <shaw@IDT.NET> 
X-Sender: shaw@u2.farm.idt.net 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
>  
> > 
> > NO. Allowing a single character two different NND attacks is 
> > normally forbidden in Champions, and you want an infinite number of 
> > NND attacks? 
>  
> 	Of course, that said, I don't totally agree with that rule.  It is 
> really up to character conception and cohesion.  However, for most 
> practical purposes one is hard pressed to come up with more than one that 
> fits a given SFX, except maybe for a gadgeteer-type. 
 
Many wide-spectrum types can theoretically justify more than one.  A broad 
band environmental mage for example could theoretically smother you, hit 
you with heat shock, cause little bugs to appear and sting you, and so on. 
But the gas gun/trank gun combination of the gadgeteer is a particularly 
obvious one. 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:46:27 +0000 
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 12 Sep 97 at 15:10, David Streeter wrote: 
 
> How many XP does everyone hand out? I usually award about 1XP/hr real  
> time, with bonuses/penalties for roleplaying & ingenious play.  
 
I generally hand out 2-3 per adventure, with a +1 for each additional  
game session needed to complete it (assuming that we actually game,  
talking for 6 hours and playing for 1 doesn't count). 
 
I'll also hand out bonuses for roleplaying and, sometimes,   
fun-boosting actions. Also, if a player is roleplaying using a skill  
they only just learned (such as a game where the player spends hours  
on horseback, but never rode before), then I will give them a point  
in that, as well. 
 
> (I think I'm rather generous with XP). 
 
I think so, too. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:46:28 +0000 
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 12 Sep 97 at 15:04, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
 
> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg 
 
Uh, your sig has 404ed. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:46:28 +0000 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (Here we go again, my 2 penneth) 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 13 Sep 97 at 13:44, Chris Lynch wrote: 
 
> >>OK, how about this. 
> >> 
> >>?d6 Drain against Speed 
> >>Ranged (+1/2) 
> >>Area effect=1 hex (+1/2) 
> >>Only effects wlakers/runners etc (-1/2) 
> >>2 charges (-1 1/4) 
> >> 
> >>This only costs 2.5 points per die of drain. 
<snip> 
> >Or Dispel vs. SPD. Most people won't have more than 50-60 points in SPD 
> (all 
> >told, figured and bought up). So I buy a 20D6 SPD Dispel (60 points) and 
> >whammo, I've just removed _all_ of my opponant's chances to act (their 
> SPD 
> >won't come back until their next phase, but they don't have a next 
> >phase...and Dispel doesn't recover in post-phase 12 like drain 
> does...isn't 
> >that nice :->). 
> > 
> I know full well thankyou that the lowest speed you are allowed is 1 no 
> matter what. I had considered this. No matter how slippy the oil slick even 
> AbbotandCostelloMan will get out of it eventually. 
 
Actually, in the HSA you can have a SPD of 0, though negatives only  
slow down recovery from Drains. With a SPD of 0, you cannot act.  
According to Bruce Harlick, you can kill with Drain even without the  
HSA, so I would assume that a paralyzing SPD Drain is legal, though I  
might forbid it as too cheap. 
 
However, I would allow recovery at the normal SPD rate. 
 
<snip> 
> >And note that your SPD Drain wouldn't effect DEX - so the character can't 
> >act at 0 SPD, but still has full DCV??? <scratch head> 
>  
> Oh but she DOES act. She trys to regain her footing (an instinctive 
> reaction when your footing is suddenly undermined). As much as she wanted 
> to fire her photonic NRG blaster (TM patentpending) she was too busy going 
> "Whoops!" 
 
And she avoids incoming attacks while lying on her butt, unable to  
even roll around or crawl? 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:46:28 +0000 
Subject: Re: Oil Slick (Here we go again, my 2 penneth) 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 13 Sep 97 at 13:28, Chris Lynch wrote: 
 
>  
> >On 12 Sep 97 at 23:13, Chris Lynch wrote: 
> > 
> >> OK, how about this. 
> >> 
> >> ?d6 Drain against Speed 
> >> Ranged (+1/2) 
> >> Area effect=1 hex (+1/2) 
> >> Only effects wlakers/runners etc (-1/2) 
> >> 2 charges (-1 1/4) 
> >> 
> > 
> >That's a pretty good one. However, its effect is to cancel phases 
> >only, and doesn't have effects such as falling down, or actions that 
> >are performed with difficulty. It also doesn't cover reduced 
> >abilities that _could_ still succeed, such as swinging a fist, which 
> >may be hampered but are not _necessarily_ disabling. 
> > 
> >Personally, I think that a new power would be a good idea. A DEX 
> >Suppress would work perfectly (using proper Advantages, 
> >Limitations, and the Hero System Almanac/ Champions III rules), but 
> >it is too expensive. 
>  
> > 
> >Filksinger 
>  
> OK, so if I drained your DEX way down, would this be allowed to affect your 
> SPD as well (as it's a figured characterstic from DEX) I certainly wouldn't 
> allow it, but would any of you?? 
 
No. Drains on primary characteristics do not affect the secondary  
characteristics upon which they are based. You want to Drain DEX  
_and_ SPD, pay the points for both. 
 
> The same basic framework would work if you drained DEX instead of SPD 
> though, with roughly similar effects. However, instead of loosing the 
> ability to perform actions, the victim just finds it very difficult to 
> perform those same actions. 
 
That's why I said that you needed the Hero System Almanac/ Champions  
III rules. Once you reach 0 DEX, you need a DEX roll every phase,  
using your present DEX, every phase, or you can't act. This would  
allow characters with a high DEX to continue acting, but not up to  
par, while characters with lower DEXes would slip so badly as to be  
disabled part of the time. 
 
Add a few Advantages and Limitations, and that about covers it,  
doesn't it? 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:46:28 +0000 
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
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Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 12 Sep 97 at 23:41, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Devan wrote: 
>  
> >  
> > On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, John Lansford wrote: 
> >  
> > > You calculate your own statistics and wish your personal STR were just 
> > > a point or two higher 
> >  
> > Or possibly... 
> >  
> > You keep thinking, "Damn, I've got all these disadvantages.. Where the hell 
> > did I spend my points?" 
>  
> Or that all you *really* had to do in order to learn a new language (like 
> Japanese) is spend a coupla points somewhere... 
>  
 
Has anyone here ever designed themselves as they wish they were,  
based upon 250 points, just for fun? 
 
(If not, I'm going to feel really stupid.) 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:46:28 +0000 
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 12 Sep 97 at 15:34, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    ...you tune in a martial arts tournament just to see what hwarang-do 
> actually looks like. 
 
Been there, done that. Besides, I would like to learn Gracie  
jiu-jitsu. 
 
How about 
 
... you collect books on sabotage, bodyguarding, bounty hunters,  
detectives, explosives, alarm systems, dirty tricks, black bag  
operations, etc.. When asked why, you say, "It might come in useful,"  
and find yourself horrified to discover that they think you would  
actually _use_ this stuff. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:46:28 +0000 
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when... 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 12 Sep 97 at 10:10, David Fair wrote: 
 
 
> David Fair Adds His 2 cents: 
>  
>    ... you look for places to attach a swingline as you walk from your  
> office to the Metro (or your car). 
>    ... you compile lists of people you meet whose names would sound good  
> on your PC's & NPC's (maybe that one's just me?) 
 
Not just you.:) 
 
>    ... you trip on a crack in the sidewalk you say "I'm OK, just failed  
> my DEX roll" 
>    ... you know what a photographic memory is _really_ called. (Eidetic  
> Memory, in case you don't have one) 
  
But I learned that about 2 years before I began playing, when I was  
about twelve. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 


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Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 11:13 AM