Week Ending September 20, 1997

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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 01:34:39 +0000 
Subject: NNDs- Are they broken? 
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I was considering the oil slick Drain question, and it occurred to me  
that a character with Power Defense was resistant, and could,  
conceivably, completely ignore these oil slick ideas that involved  
Drains and Suppresses. This meant that you needed NND, so that Power  
Defense wouldn't defend. However, NNDs are hideously expensive, even  
though the defense of not being on the surface stopped the power  
better than Power Defense (because it protected absolutely), and was  
more common to boot, at least in my campaigns. 
 
Which lead me to a question- who thinks that NNDs need refining? 
 
Consider a STUN Drain NND and an Energy Blast NND. The Drain pays the  
same amount for NND that Energy Blast does, and gets the same effect.  
OTOH, the Energy Blast NND is actually cheaper than a AVLD, which  
would give you the same effect as the Drain did in the first place. 
 
Thus, Drain pays for a Advantage that could, logically, be considered  
a Limitation, because it gives up the equivalent of an AVLD for a  
NND.  
 
Other weaknesses exist. Imagine two NNDs, one not against Force  
Field, one not against 10 pts. Life Support. In most campaigns, the  
Life Support one is more effective, because Life Support is rarer.  
However, in a hero-level game, a FF might be very rare, while gas  
masks may be readily available. 
 
I was considering something like this. 
 
Unusual Defense 
 
Unusual Defense is an advantage (or, sometimes, a limitation) that  
applies to attack powers. Unusual Defense changes the defense of a  
power so that it is different than the standard defense for that  
power. For example, a gas attack EB whose defense is Life Support:  
Does not breathe, or a ultra-sharp toxic dart EB whose defense is  
Hardened Resistance PD or 15 Resistant PD. 
 
The cost of Unusual Defense is based upon the commonness of the  
defense and the degree to which it defends you. It replaces both NND  
and AVLD. 
 
Defense is: 
 
A partial defense		+1 (As with an AVLD) 
A total defense: 
 	All the time		+1/2 (As NND vs a power, like LS) 
 	A normal roll		+3/4 (Character makes roll, nothing happens) 
	A -5 roll			+1 
 
Defense is: 
Much more common than normal defense	-1 
More common than normal defense			-1/2 
As common as normal defense				+0 
Less common than normal defense			+1/2 
Much less common than normal defense	+1 
 
If the power has multiple defenses, then the other defenses are taken  
as standard limitations. 
 
Example: 
 
Hypno has an EB UD: Partial defense: Flash. Flash only partially  
effective, each point of Flash Defense subtracts 1 point of STUN  
damage. Thus, the cost of the UD is Partial Defense (+1), Less common  
than normal defense (+1/2) (not much less common, because of  
sunglasses and tinted motorcycle helmet faceplates), for a total of  
+1 1/2. This is exactly the same as AVLD, both in cost and in effect. 
 
Example: Dartman has EB UD: Not vs 10pts Resistant Defense, because  
of drugged darts. The defense is total (+1/2), and is Less common  
than normal defense (+1/2), for a total of +1, exactly the same as  
the original NND, in cost and effect. 
 
Example: Gasboy has a EB UD: 10pts Life Support. Life Support  
completely stops the attack (+1/4), and the GM declares that Life  
Support: Does not breathe is very rare in his campaign, and is thus  
is much less common than normal PD (+1). This gives a total cost  
increase of +1 1/4, because it is less likely to be stopped than  
Dartman's darts. Doesn't work if target is holding his breath,  
however, would be a limitation on the power itself, just as it would  
be if it was taken on an ordinary EB. 
 
Another example: Slick has the power DEX Suppress, with the special  
effect that he makes the ground extra slippery. His GM decides that  
Power Defense is useless vs slipperiness, and tells him to buy  
Unusual Defense. Slick calculates the cost of the UD like this: 
 
Defense is target is not touching surface, which is determined to be  
more common than Power Defense (-1/2), and the defense stops the  
power completely, all the time(+1/2). Thus, this UD costs nothing. 
 
What do you guys think? 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:28:00 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: XP Awards (was Re: NND & Variable special effect) 
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At 03:37 PM 9/13/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>The esteemed Mr. Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> sez: 
>>  About two to three per session is probably about right, especially if you 
>play once a week, >as most groups do; it could even be considered high. 
>However, you [me!] mentioned in >another post that you play every two to 
>three weeks, so you might even be able to get away >with going up to 
>averaging 4 per session. 
 
   Hm.  I seem to have made the list of Esteemed Champions Minds.  Maybe 
someday I'll be called a Champions Guru, and I'll start getting invited as 
Guest Speaker at someone's Con.  Someday............   ;-) 
 
>This being said, I have used really three different (but similar) systems, 
>which overlapped... 
> 
>1)  Started as 1 xp/session, +1 if it was especially long or the players 
>were being really cool (kind of how I interpret playing well; if I had a 
>good time...). 
>This kind of morphed into... 
>2)  2 xp/session, +1 if we played all night, +1 if the individual players 
>were cool and/or funny, +1 for giving me cool drawings/backgrounds of the 
>characters/events (one of the guys does *lovely* Anime-esque art, and I've 
>had to cut that bonus back slightly). 
>3) Flat, 1 xp/session (my most recent game, with the most players. 
> 
>With 1, I was just starting out, and simply used the table in the back of 
>the book.  At 2, some of the players complained that they weren't advancing 
>fast enough, and I didn't want unhappy players.  Also, S. John Ross told me 
>of his "Bonus Starting Character Points" system (I don't think that's what 
>he calls it) that he uses in GURPS.  He awards extra points *at character 
>creation* for things like: character sketch/full description (at least a 
>page, I believe); promise to do a character diary/log/chronicle, in 
>character; and some other things, I forgot, I'll ask John.  3 was my most 
>recent game, with the most players, and I didn't want to "play favorites" or 
>upset anyone.  Plus, most of them were still exploring the system and the 
>novelty of just playing their characters in this "new" (to them) system was 
>enough. 
 
   Tailoring the xp awards to the needs of the group is a very sensible 
idea that I admit has never occurred to me, and I've never seen it in print 
or on the list either (at least not that I can think of).  We're so busy 
with applying YMMV to character creation and combat rules and campaign 
flavors that we forget that it can apply to something as obvious as 
experience point awards. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 01:19:54 -0700 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Ego[not EGO]and Hero(Was:You know your a HERO player when...) 
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Filksinger wrote: 
 
>  
> Has anyone here ever designed themselves as they wish they were, 
> based upon 250 points, just for fun? 
>  
> (If not, I'm going to feel really stupid.) 
 
   You may feel really stupid anyway, just with company.... 
 
   Actually, I've gone full-bore on the self-aggrandization highway;  
I've built 'myself' as I would envision myself as a 'realistic' hero, 
but that was just the beginning! 
   I went on to create a version of myself with 'normal' CHARs and my 
actual skills, with a huge VPP which would allow me to 'write my own 
character sheet' a'la Dial 'H' for Hero (but with more control) and came 
in and out of the various games I GMed as an NPC/Plot Device. 
   Then I wrote up 'myself' using superpowers as an analogy for 
personality traits - which led to my writing up an entire 'villian' team 
of characters based on my players using powers as personalities - who 
make the occasional appearance in my current game. 
   Not to mention that my first and longest-played character (Capt. 
Spith, oddly enough) has always been played as myself actually sticking 
concretely to all of my ideals. 
   I also still have one or two more versions of 'myself' stuck in a 
folder somewhere....  
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:17:40 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero 
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At 09:46 PM 9/13/97 +0000, Filksinger wrote: 
>On 12 Sep 97 at 15:04, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
>>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg 
> 
>Uh, your sig has 404ed. 
 
   I caught that the same time you did.  It should now be corrected (below). 
   Thanks for the note, though. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <korthmat@pilot.msu.edu> 
From: "Matt Korth" <korthmat@cps.msu.edu> 
Organization: I don't think so, Tim. 
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:33:44 -0400 
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when 
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> On 12 Sep 97 at 23:41, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>  
> > On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Devan wrote: 
> >  
> > >  
> > > On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, John Lansford wrote: 
> > >  
> > > > You calculate your own statistics and wish your personal STR were just 
> > > > a point or two higher 
> > >  
> > > Or possibly... 
> > >  
> > > You keep thinking, "Damn, I've got all these disadvantages.. Where the hell 
> > > did I spend my points?" 
> >  
> > Or that all you *really* had to do in order to learn a new language (like 
> > Japanese) is spend a coupla points somewhere... 
> >  
>  
> Has anyone here ever designed themselves as they wish they were,  
> based upon 250 points, just for fun? 
>  
> (If not, I'm going to feel really stupid.) 
 
No, but for my final project for CS 221 (Structured Programming in C), I  
wrote a program that wrote a Postscript character sheet for a normal in  
Champions... and used myself as the example when I had to demo it to the  
professor. :) 
 
-- 
korthmat@cps.msu.edu  http://www.cps.msu.edu/~korthmat 
*** People who send me UCE/UBE will be crucified. *** 
"Katy, you're a freshman.  Find 2,000 people."  
        --Droz, _PCU_ 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 15:40:47 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect 
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> > 	Of course, that said, I don't totally agree with that rule.  It is 
> > really up to character conception and cohesion.  However, for most 
> > practical purposes one is hard pressed to come up with more than one that 
> > fits a given SFX, except maybe for a gadgeteer-type. 
> 
> Many wide-spectrum types can theoretically justify more than one.  A broad 
> band environmental mage for example could theoretically smother you, hit 
> you with heat shock, cause little bugs to appear and sting you, and so on. 
> But the gas gun/trank gun combination of the gadgeteer is a particularly 
> obvious one. 
 
 
	Which really makes it a game balance thing.  Do you want to 
allow someone with that type of power and unbalanced-ness.  I'd need top 
see the attacks at a very low level (2 to 3 dice of NND) before I might 
allow multiple NNDs. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 14:08:20 -0700 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: You know you're a Hero player when...(archive) 
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Because I've got too much time on my hands, here's a comprehensive list 
for those who want to keep these things.... 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
Return-Path: cptspith@mail.teleport.com 
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Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 14:01:28 -0700 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
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Subject: You know you're a Hero player when...(archive) 
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Captain Spith wrote: 
 
Eric Burns... 
>-When you ask everyone you meet how many "Total Points" they are "built 
>on". 
  
>When you refer to your glasses as your "OIF Focus for Enhanced Normal 
>Sight".- 
 
Capt. Spith... 
>...Instead of covering a friends eyes and saying "Guess Who?" you say 
>"Make a perception roll" 
 
>...During a snowball fight, you start cataloging who has a high DEX 
>and who has skill levels. 
 
>...You refer to your friends' and family's idiosyncracies as Psych 
>Lims 
 
Curtis Gibson... 
>... you tell someone waiting, 'Be back in a segment'. 
 
>... any movie seen is instantly catalogued as Wild Ninja Hero, 
>Streetlevel, ect. 
 
>... You refer to getting your second wind as 'taking a post 12' 
 
Happyelf... 
>... you get annoyed in a fun run if your second wind doesn'y come ever 12 seconds. . 
 
>... nobody else seems to understand what "ouch! nnd me will ya!" means.... 
 
>... you don't understand how people can learn to play th piano without first saving a >bunch of orphans from a burning building or at least beating up a thug 
 
Bob Greenwade... 
>...what's going through your mind during a movie is what each 
>character's Characteristics, Skills, and Disadvantages would be. 
 
>...you count off segments when watching an action sequence. 
 
>...you tune in a martial arts tournament just to see what hwarang-do 
>actually looks like. 
 
>...you're being hurried by someone and you ask for one extra level on 
>the Time Chart. 
 
>...you express your computer's speed as a one-digit number that is not 
>in Megahertz. 
 
>...someone in an AOL chat room offers you a a celebrity nude pic and you 
>ask for Quantum. 
 
>...your computer's hard disk has more space devoted to CHA files than 
>EXE files. 
 
>...your line of thought when vacationing is what would be a cool place 
>to stage a superhero battle.  (Side note:  the tide pools at Yaquina Head 
>just north of Newport, Oregon would be an *excellent* locale!) 
 
>...someone mentions four armed guards, and you wonder how many there are 
>and whether they have weapons.  (You may have to read that one multiple 
>times to understand it.) 
 
John Lansford... 
>You calculate your own statistics and wish your personal STR were just 
>a point or two higher 
 
>You write vacation spots for brochures to use in your campaign, not to 
>plan a vacation with (I did this for New Orleans) 
 
>You judge building materials on how much knockback they subtract off 
>before getting knocked through them 
 
William G Geiger... 
>Every time you research, 
>your sweetie says it is for gaming purposes. 
 
 
 
David Fair... 
>... you look for places to attach a swingline as you walk from your  
>office to the Metro (or your car). 
>... you compile lists of people you meet whose names would sound good  
>on your PC's & NPC's (maybe that one's just me?) 
>... you trip on a crack in the sidewalk you say "I'm OK, just failed  
>my DEX roll" 
>... you know what a photographic memory is _really_ called. (Eidetic  
>Memory, in case you don't have one) 
 
Devan... 
>You keep thinking, "Damn, I've got all these disadvantages.. Where the hell did I 
>spend my points?" 
 
Michael Surbrook... 
>Or that all you *really* had to do in order to learn a new language (like 
>Japanese) is spend a coupla points somewhere... 
 
 ---- 
 
  -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <swhbfssg@pop.softnet.co.uk> 
From: "MarkBarltrop" <Mark.Barltrop@kzin.softnet.co.uk> 
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 22:12:30 +0100 
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect 
Reply-to: tachyon@kzin.softnet.co.uk 
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On 11 Sep 97 at 21:16, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
>  
> > 
> > NO. Allowing a single character two different NND attacks is 
> > normally forbidden in Champions, and you want an infinite number of 
> > NND attacks? 
>  
>  Of course, that said, I don't totally agree with that rule.  It is 
> really up to character conception and cohesion.  However, for most 
> practical purposes one is hard pressed to come up with more than one 
> that fits a given SFX, except maybe for a gadgeteer-type. 
>  
Martial Arts- both Hwarang-do & Ninjitsu allow 2 different NNDs, Plus  
there would be no reason why someone with those styles could not have  
their own NND. For example if Scorpia, say, had either of those  
styles instead of Generic Comic book, She would have 3 NNDs. (though  
in her case all 3 would be stopped by solid armour). 
Although strictly speaking those 2 styles are illegal under the Hero  
system (I'm assuming these weren't changed in USM), the fact that  
they would both be stopped by solid armour might well explain the  
exemption, and as someone else said earlier, allowing multiple NNDs  
as long as one (fairly common) defence stops all of them could be the  
way to go. 
 
Mark Barltrop (tachyon@kzin.softnet.co.uk) 
'What is it?' 
'Its a wolf!' 
'In a city? What does it find to eat?' 
'Oh, why did you have to ask that?' 
(Terry Pratchett,'Feet of Clay') 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 16:18:41 -0500 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Books in Champions Universe 
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>   It wasn't lack of faith that prevented the Hero guys from trying to get 
>the Champions Universe developed into other media forms; it was the fact 
>that they didn't own the rights to all of its institutions, PRIMUS being 
>arguably the most notable case (as well as anything written by Aaron 
>Allston).  I asked Steve P. point-blank in an email once, and that's what 
>he told me (and it makes perfect sense). 
 
Except that in my experience, those in the game industry have a rather 
nebulous concept of "rights".  Every source I've found indicates a total of 
two protections for literary creations: copyrights and trademarks.  Hero 
Games very explicitly owns both the copyrights and trademarks for those 
works they published (at least, a quick glance at supplements I own ranging 
from TO SERVE AND PROTECT to NORMALS UNBOUND showed a consistent format 
claiming both copyright and trademark for Hero Games). 
 
> Personally, I'm just wishing that they could've negotiated something 
> with the copyright owners and/or done something a little more drastic. 
 
Hero Games *is* "the copyright owners", or at least always began as such. 
 
> I can't even get a straight answer from Steve about whether the old CU  
> is going to be supported in Hero Plus materials. 
 
Have we ever gotten a straight answer from Steve about ANYTHING? :] 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
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Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 16:18:44 -0500 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: You know your a HERO player when 
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At 03:34 PM 9/12/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   ...you tune in a martial arts tournament just to see what hwarang-do 
>actually looks like. 
 
I would, except I have yet to find anything to tune into which is featuring 
hwarang-do.  (Or pentjak silat, either, another M-ART I'd like to watch. 
Did catch a Karala documentary on ESPN once, though). 
 
>   ...your computer's hard disk has more space devoted to CHA files than 
>EXE files. 
 
Well, not anymore, but I just bought a ZIP drive precisely for that problem... 
 
>   ...someone mentions four armed guards, and you wonder how many there are 
>and whether they have weapons.  (You may have to read that one multiple 
>times to understand it.) 
 
(*LOL*) 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
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Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 16:18:46 -0500 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero 
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At 03:04 PM 9/12/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   There is that.  But there's also the artistic purpose of putting out a 
>book of any type.  I doubt that they would've put out the HSAs (with 
>apparent plans of doing more) if they weren't trying to expand the Hero 
>System as a whole (the books' stated purpose).  Remember, these guys are 
>writers and gamers, not television network programming executives.  They do 
>have souls.  ;-] 
 
So does my Dad.  I don't want him writing my gaming supplements, either. :/ 
(NASCAR Hero, anyone?) 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
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Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 17:31:10 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: (Genre Question) Teen Aged Heroes. Is it a viable construct 
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>    There are several examples of this in the genre. 
> 
>    New Mutants, Teen Titans, DNAgents, Gen 13, 
>Generation X, X Force. 
> 
>    Gaming gives us Arcadian Academy, Scions of Cain, 
>and I know of two PBeM's devoted to the subject. For 
>those who don't know, the first two are from Fuzion, 
>the second two are Champions PBeM's. 
> 
>    The question here remains however, is this a viable 
>concept. The idea of a group of teenage Super-Heroes. 
>What ought to happen to people of such an age in a 
>Super-Universe. 
> 
>    Obviously, they shouldn't be out in the open battling 
>Galactus, that seems the role of the adults... 
> 
>    So is the idea of such a Super Team viable. What would 
>they do? What should they not do? How would adult 
>society deal with them? Why would they exist as a super 
>hero team? What would hold them together? How would 
>they pull it off? 
> 
>    What kind of adventures would make sense for them? 
> 
>-- 
>Rook 
 
I'm currently running a game where the character's ages range from 16 - 30.   
This makes for an interesting game because the older superheroes role play  
it well.  They feel the younger generation of heroes has no right being  
heroes yet and should be in school and enjoying their young lives before  
getting killed by a villian.  The younger character's fight with them all  
the time and when they get in trouble with their parents come to the older  
members looking for help, which though they help them usually point out the  
parents are right.  Note:  All the players are about the same age.  This  
makes for great role playing.  The adventures are about the same as all  
super hero stories, but the gap in age difference among characters makes for  
a certain amount of tension between the characters.  Coincidentally, the  
players chose the age, and it seems the more powerful characters are younger  
so they feel they have every bit of a right to be full fledged members on  
the team.  This doesn't answer your question I realize, but I thought I'd  
share my experience with the younger hero vs older hero scenario.  And yes,  
the youngest member just went one on one with Firewing, though I hate to say  
it really wasn't a fight.  This brought about a team bent on beating  
Firewing and then bringing the character's parents in on the fact he was a  
hero and in serious condition in the hospital.  Great role playing.  Take it  
easy and talk at you later. 
 
Sparx 
 
==================================================== 
Friends help you move.  Real friends help you move bodies. 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams) 
Date: 14 Sep 97 23:05:26 GMT 
Subject: re: campaign questionaire 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
Path: october!michael.adams 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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 In one of my universes the "Metas" first started showing up c.1860 
 when there was a passing of the Spheres (read Moorcock to know what I mean) 
And things started to happen a bit different. It started slow, people 
like Sherlocks Holmes came into exister as the "magic" 
crept ipers started showing up. 
  
Over time the supers started to get to be low level to mid level, then  
the invasion came from a parallel dimenstion and the supers 
were drafted to fight the enemy, but the ene superior 
technology, so the nations of Earth (The Confederation of Nations, sort 
of like a less y of the United Nations) fell. 
And the people of earth who wished to fight the invaders went underground. 
  
Sort of a Red Dawn scenario (I think I originally had the idea 
after one of the times I saw the movie). 
  
The current group in the scenario are a rebel group based of all places 
Alaska (Alyeska in this world) (I live in Alaska okay). 
They are made up of supers/metas and some normals in a fight to reclaim 
Earth from the invaders looks alot like elves or  
Elrics Melnibonians. 
  
Yes I am a reader of Moorcock, Zelazny, Farmer, Noey, and 
a few others. 
  
 -=> Quoting herolist@october.com to All <=- 
  
 he> From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com> 
 he> Subject: Re: Campaign Questionnaires 
 > Other Super Questions.... 
 > Why are there supers in your world (ie ancient genetic tampering, 
 > Wildcards virus ect)? And this question I wouldn't expect the GM to tell 
 > the players, just that he knows what it is. I had mine planned and 8 
 > years later only 2 PCs know the answer; big mystery in the campaign. 
 > 
 he> You know. I actually intentionally did not answer this question 
 he> for my super world. It's not the focus I chose. My focus is on the 
 he> nature of they mythic hero ideal. Certain things just 'are'. 
  
 
Sorry for spelling errors, the connect is buggy and my uploads are not being 
uoploaded right. 
 
 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:36:25 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 11 
 
 
> Martial Arts- both Hwarang-do & Ninjitsu allow 2 different NNDs, Plus 
> there would be no reason why someone with those styles could not have 
> their own NND. For example if Scorpia, say, had either of those 
> styles instead of Generic Comic book, She would have 3 NNDs. (though 
> in her case all 3 would be stopped by solid armour). 
 
	And the excuse really is in that last statement.  All of the NNDs 
of differing SFX use the same mechanics for damage purposes.  They aren't 
really different NNDs. 
 
 
> Although strictly speaking those 2 styles are illegal under the Hero 
> system (I'm assuming these weren't changed in USM), the fact that 
> they would both be stopped by solid armour might well explain the 
> exemption, and as someone else said earlier, allowing multiple NNDs 
> as long as one (fairly common) defence stops all of them could be the 
> way to go. 
 
 
	Illegal?  First I've heard anything to that effect.  Explain. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 22:02:33 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
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At 09:36 PM 9/14/97 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>> Martial Arts- both Hwarang-do & Ninjitsu allow 2 different NNDs, Plus 
>> there would be no reason why someone with those styles could not have 
>> their own NND. For example if Scorpia, say, had either of those 
>> styles instead of Generic Comic book, She would have 3 NNDs. (though 
>> in her case all 3 would be stopped by solid armour). 
> 
> And the excuse really is in that last statement.  All of the NNDs 
>of differing SFX use the same mechanics for damage purposes.  They aren't 
>really different NNDs. 
 
   Modification:  They're different, but not *that* different.  The special 
effects that neutralize them overlap, making them at least marginally 
acceptable. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 02:54:03 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: nez@pop3.thepoint.net 
From: The Nez Master <nez@thepoint.net> 
Subject: Re: XP Awards  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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I weigh ex awards on several factors. The level/type of the game, the 
lethality level of the game, the genre, the end goals, the number of people 
involved, the general playing skill of the players, and what I feel the 
players of that campaign want. 
 
One thing we do a bit differently with xp, is to try and break it down a bit 
more, so that individual moves, creative soliqy, clever ideas, can each 
count for something, without easily adding up to 12-14 points. That is to 
give out decimal points. In some of my games I break it down to give out 
between 15-50 points per session, with 25 being the average. 10 points = 1. 
This allows me to say "gee telling that villian his shoes were untied is 
worth a point, what else showed me an aspect of your character." this can be 
fun wrap up, but can also be ugly competition, hence why I don't always do 
it that way. 
 
Lately I've been doing more just straight points, almost everyone gets the 
same unless they play badly/well. 
The CLPC = currently longest played character total 
ALE = Alien Law Enforcement 
 
Game 1: Sector 2 ALE:  
        Champions super hero mostly 4 color game.:  
        250 point game: 3-7 points given out per adventure with adventures 
taking between 1-4 games.  
        Reason: standard super hero level IMO  
        CLPC: 3 years, 118 xp 
 
Game 2: Sector 6 ALE:  
        Champions super hero, 4 color with heavy  grey overtones:  
        250 point game: same as above.  
        Reason: To keep games at similar levels.  
        CLPC: 3 years, 107  xp 
 
Game 3: Sector 1 ALE:  
        Champions super hero, reasonably silly, rarely played, very campy:       
        300 point game: 3 points per session, with extra points for the 
right laugh.     
        Reason: game balance doesn't matter, we're just goofing off. Why 
think about xp, just standard is good. The gm once considered giving out 700 
points, but changed his mind.  
        CLPC 2 years (15 play sessions): 47 xp 
 
Game 4: Fantasy Hero:  
        Mythic legends as the characters set out on a quest in a world 
filled with black plague, based on a myth they all once heard.  
        150 point game: 2-4 points per adventure. (adventure = 1-4 sessions).    
         Reason: I want to keep this game low level, and stay away from 
fantasy super heroes. Low magic, lots of non magical foes, standard thugs as 
threats so i need slow advancment. The characters are heroic enough at start. 
        CLPC 4 months (9 games) 14 XP. 
 
Game 5: Western Horror Hero:  
        Supernatural forces in the new unexplored world of America. Very 
high lethality (6 deaths in 9 games- 4 from the same player though)     
        100 point game: 4-9 points per game.  
        Reason: characters start out just nobodys, one more face on the road 
west, but as they uncover the impossible, face that which has never been 
faced, they quickly become the stuff of legend. Learn fast or die. Start 
small, build fast.  
        CLPC: 9 Games 44 xp 
 
Game 6: ALE Reservist force:  
        Champions super hero, heroes in training. 
        200 point game: 5-9 points per session  
        Reason: to reflect intensive training in between games. 
        CLPC:  2 games: 9 xp With 50 ex characters are allowed to graduate 
to other ALE groups. Very rarely has anyone played the same reservist twice 
yet so this hasn't happened. We've played 6 reservist games. 
 
Thats all the hero games I currently run. Most are bi weekly, except for 
game 3 and game 6. 
 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:23:30 -0500 
From: John Stefanski <jstefanski@internetMCI.com> 
Subject: Scenario Ideas 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
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Would anyone like to post their favorite scenario ideas/threads? 
 
I personally get some of my favorite smaller scenarios from cartoons. A great source is "The New Adventures of Jonny Quest." I change the names and mold some of the story ideas to the appropriate characters in our game. 
 
JS 
============================== 
John Stefanski 
 
"There can BE only one" 
 
Send all replies to jstefanski@iname.com 
============================== 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:24:28 -0500 
From: John Stefanski <jstefanski@internetMCI.com> 
Subject: Champion Comics 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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If anyone is interested, I have the complete set of hero comics. This includes:  
 
"Champions Mini-series" 1-6,  
"Champions (Unlimited?)" 1-12,  
"Champions Annual" 1, " 
"The League of Champions" 1-3 
"Captain Thunder & Blue Bolt" 1-4 
The Flare Mini-series, 
The Marksman Mini-series, and 
The Rose Mini-series. 
 
Thanks, 
 
JS 
============================== 
John Stefanski 
 
"There can BE only one" 
 
Send all replies to jstefanski@iname.com 
============================== 
 
Subject: Re: Books in Champions Universe 
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 08:56:41 -0500 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 16 
 
On 9/14/97 4:18 PM, Vox Ludator! (ludator@mail.softfarm.com) Said: 
 
>> I can't even get a straight answer from Steve about whether the old CU  
>> is going to be supported in Hero Plus materials. 
> 
>Have we ever gotten a straight answer from Steve about ANYTHING? :] 
 
Steve P. Is a lawyer; he, and others of his kind, are genetically  
incapable of giving a straight answer. 
 
The popularity of Windows surged in 1995, when  | 
Microsoft began shipping Windows 95, which      |  David A. Fair 
included many innovations that the Macintosh    |  SDS International 
had introduced 10 years earlier.                |  dfair@sdslink.com 
          - Reuters, Friday, July 18, 1997      | 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:13:01 -0500 
From: John Stefanski <jstefanski@internetmci.com> 
Subject: RE: XP Awards 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 22 
 
I use a very subjective system that encourages various areas of play. I usually start with a Base Experience for a game at three and go from there. 
 
Areas of Measurement: 
1.) Played within Character Conception,		 
2.) Co-operative Playing, 
3.) Characters Significance 
 
Scale: 
-1 Point: Terrible 
-1/3 Point: Poor 
+0 Point: Average 
+1/3 Point: Good 
+1 Point: Excellent 
 
I always accompany comments for the award. 
 
JS 
 
============================== 
John Stefanski 
 
"There can BE only one" 
 
Send all replies to jstefanski@iname.com 
============================== 
 
From: BCBattle@aol.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:37:54 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Champion Comics 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 21 
 
 
 
>If anyone is interested, I have the complete set of hero comics. This 
includes:  
 
>"Champions Mini-series" 1-6,  
>"Champions (Unlimited?)" 1-12,  
>"Champions Annual" 1, " 
>"The League of Champions" 1-3 
>"Captain Thunder & Blue Bolt" 1-4 
>The Flare Mini-series, 
>The Marksman Mini-series, and 
>The Rose Mini-series. 
 
It's interesting that you say you have the complete set.  I think there may 
be more to it than what you currently own.  I myself have copies of: 
 
Champions Annual 1 and 2,  
League of Champions 1-3, 4, 5, 6, 9 and 10 
Captain Thunder and Blue Bolt (Hero Comics) 1-4, 5, 6, 7, 9 and 10 
Captain Thunder and Blue Bolt (Hero Graphics) 1 and 2 
The Lady Arcane mini-series 1, 2 and 4 (of 5) 
Marksman Annual 1 
 
As for Flare: 
 
Flare (Hero Comics) 1-3 
Flare (Heroic) 1-10 
Flare Adventures 1-3 and 12 
Flare Annual 1 
Flare First Edition 1, 2, 4, 6 and 10 
 
And what about the Icicle mini-series?:  1-4 (of 4)   
 
And I'm pretty sure there was a Sparkplug special or two as well as a couple 
of things that exclusively involved Foxbat in his own title.  So far, I have 
yet to latch onto those as well as the Marksman mini-series. 
 
If anyone can steer me in the right direction for the rest of these Works of 
Great Literature, I'd be mighty grateful. 
 
BCB 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:43:59 -0500 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Books in Champions Universe 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:34 PM 9/15/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>To be more precice, copyright applies to the text and instances of artwork, 
>and tradmark applies to the likenesses of the characters.  And yeah, any 
>comercial entity goes out of its way to make sure that both copyright and 
>trademark protection are in effect whenever possible. 
 
And to be even more precise (and perhaps annoying), trademarks can also 
apply to the names of characters.  IIRC, Hero Games only bothers claiming 
trademarks on the names of its products, so (for example) "To Serve And 
Protect" is a trademark, but "Protectors" and "Quasar" aren't.  (This gives 
people a certain leeway in universe building ...) 
 
One may also hear people (usually representatives of interested parties 
like, say, TSR) talk about a "character copyright" separate from the 
standard "put a copyright on the textual description and/or artwork you made 
concerning the character", which would prevent one from lifting characters 
(or in more extremist versions, using settings or universes) from another 
source ... but as far as I've been able to determine this is halfway between 
legal urban legend and outright wishful thinking -- the sort of thing people 
just assume "should" be in the law and don't bother looking. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:57:56 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: NNDs- Are they broken? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 32 
 
At 01:34 AM 9/14/97 +0000, Filksinger wrote: 
>Which lead me to a question- who thinks that NNDs need refining? 
> 
>Consider a STUN Drain NND and an Energy Blast NND. The Drain pays the  
>same amount for NND that Energy Blast does, and gets the same effect.  
>OTOH, the Energy Blast NND is actually cheaper than a AVLD, which  
>would give you the same effect as the Drain did in the first place. 
 
   Not exactly.  An Energy Blast AVLD has range; a Drain does not (unless 
you use the Range Advantage). 
 
>Thus, Drain pays for a Advantage that could, logically, be considered  
>a Limitation, because it gives up the equivalent of an AVLD for a  
>NND.  
 
   A Drain NND with Range is 25 pts/d6; an Energy Blast AVLD is 12.5 pts/d6. 
   Arguably, this is indeed (as I gather you're trying to say) too large of 
a price gap. 
 
>Other weaknesses exist. Imagine two NNDs, one not against Force  
>Field, one not against 10 pts. Life Support. In most campaigns, the  
>Life Support one is more effective, because Life Support is rarer.  
>However, in a hero-level game, a FF might be very rare, while gas  
>masks may be readily available. 
> 
>I was considering something like this. 
> 
>Unusual Defense 
> 
>Unusual Defense is an advantage (or, sometimes, a limitation) that  
>applies to attack powers. Unusual Defense changes the defense of a  
>power so that it is different than the standard defense for that  
>power. For example, a gas attack EB whose defense is Life Support:  
>Does not breathe, or a ultra-sharp toxic dart EB whose defense is  
>Hardened Resistance PD or 15 Resistant PD. 
 
   Looking here at a modifier that crosses the line between an Advantage 
and a Limitation, then, like Charges (and END Battery from older editions)? 
 
>The cost of Unusual Defense is based upon the commonness of the  
>defense and the degree to which it defends you. It replaces both NND  
>and AVLD. 
> 
>Defense is: 
> 
>A partial defense  +1 (As with an AVLD) 
>A total defense: 
>  All the time  +1/2 (As NND vs a power, like LS) 
>  A normal roll  +3/4 (Character makes roll, nothing happens) 
> A -5 roll   +1 
 
   I'm not sure I understand these last two entries. 
 
>Defense is: 
>Much more common than normal defense -1 
>More common than normal defense   -1/2 
>As common as normal defense    +0 
>Less common than normal defense   +1/2 
>Much less common than normal defense +1 
 
   This is generally sensible, though I think I'd halve the modifiers and 
change the argument of how common to what the average value is (if someone 
doesn't have it, the value is 0). 
 
>If the power has multiple defenses, then the other defenses are taken  
>as standard limitations. 
   [Examples clipped for some semblence of brevity] 
>What do you guys think? 
 
   This is an interesting idea, if nothing else.  It could use a little 
fleshing out and balancing, though -- but that's what we're here for!   :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:07:27 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Champion Comics 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 35 
 
At 10:37 AM 9/15/97 -0400, BCBattle@aol.com wrote: 
> 
> 
>>If anyone is interested, I have the complete set of hero comics. This 
>includes:  
> 
>>"Champions Mini-series" 1-6,  
>>"Champions (Unlimited?)" 1-12,  
>>"Champions Annual" 1, " 
>>"The League of Champions" 1-3 
>>"Captain Thunder & Blue Bolt" 1-4 
>>The Flare Mini-series, 
>>The Marksman Mini-series, and 
>>The Rose Mini-series. 
> 
>It's interesting that you say you have the complete set.  I think there may 
>be more to it than what you currently own.  I myself have copies of: 
> 
>Champions Annual 1 and 2,  
>League of Champions 1-3, 4, 5, 6, 9 and 10 
>Captain Thunder and Blue Bolt (Hero Comics) 1-4, 5, 6, 7, 9 and 10 
>Captain Thunder and Blue Bolt (Hero Graphics) 1 and 2 
>The Lady Arcane mini-series 1, 2 and 4 (of 5) 
>Marksman Annual 1 
> 
>As for Flare: 
> 
>Flare (Hero Comics) 1-3 
>Flare (Heroic) 1-10 
>Flare Adventures 1-3 and 12 
>Flare Annual 1 
>Flare First Edition 1, 2, 4, 6 and 10 
> 
>And what about the Icicle mini-series?:  1-4 (of 4)   
> 
>And I'm pretty sure there was a Sparkplug special or two as well as a couple 
>of things that exclusively involved Foxbat in his own title.  So far, I have 
>yet to latch onto those as well as the Marksman mini-series. 
> 
>If anyone can steer me in the right direction for the rest of these Works of 
>Great Literature, I'd be mighty grateful. 
 
   Personally, I had no idea that this much comic material had been 
released featuring the characters of the Champions Universe (at least, what 
was *then* the Champions Universe, on which I gather the CTNM world is 
loosely based).  Before this thread started, I was only aware of the first 
six-issue mini-series, and maybe a couple of later specials. 
   I'm also interested in finding out more about these comics. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:08:10 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 36 
 
At 04:18 PM 9/14/97 -0500, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>At 03:04 PM 9/12/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>   There is that.  But there's also the artistic purpose of putting out a 
>>book of any type.  I doubt that they would've put out the HSAs (with 
>>apparent plans of doing more) if they weren't trying to expand the Hero 
>>System as a whole (the books' stated purpose).  Remember, these guys are 
>>writers and gamers, not television network programming executives.  They do 
>>have souls.  ;-] 
> 
>So does my Dad.  I don't want him writing my gaming supplements, either. :/ 
>(NASCAR Hero, anyone?) 
 
   I'd buy it.  Even if I didn't buy everything Hero as soon as I have the 
money to do so, I'd probably buy it. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:19:56 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Scenario Ideas 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 33 
 
At 08:23 AM 9/15/97 -0500, John Stefanski wrote: 
>Would anyone like to post their favorite scenario ideas/threads? 
> 
>I personally get some of my favorite smaller scenarios from cartoons. A 
great source is "The New Adventures of Jonny Quest." I change the names and 
mold some of the story ideas to the appropriate characters in our game. 
 
   I often do the same thing, but with "Darkwing Duck" and "Pinky & the 
Brain."  (Foxbat is the perfect villain to steal a scheme of the Brain's, 
and some of the stuff tried by Tuskanini on DW would be grist for the 
Director.) 
   Another thing I do is take a close look at the PCs' Hunters and 
carefully consider *why* these people are after them.  Often there's a 
scenario idea there that can be drawn out.  What I tend to do in this case 
is have that particular Hunter not show up for a while, and then suddenly 
make an appearance with a complex scheme intended to draw the PC to where 
they want him. 
   I have a handful of original scenarios on my website (URL in my sig), 
all drawn on the idea that certain villains and groups in the Champions 
Universe just aren't adequately exploited in the published material.  So 
far I've featured the Asesinos, COIL, the Crusher Gang, the Cult of the Red 
Banner, the Gweenies, Spectrum, and VIPER (twice, but neither time 
centrally).  The most popular ones seem to be the one featuring the 
Asesinos (A Fine Place to Die) and Spectrum (A Frame of Many Colors), 
possibly because these adventures specifically target the PCs for 
extinction.  I'm also taking requests.... 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Books in Champions Universe 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 15 Sep 1997 12:34:33 -0400 
Lines: 29 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes: 
 
VL> Except that in my experience, those in the game industry have a rather 
VL> nebulous concept of "rights".  Every source I've found indicates a 
VL> total of two protections for literary creations: copyrights and 
VL> trademarks. 
 
To be more precice, copyright applies to the text and instances of artwork, 
and tradmark applies to the likenesses of the characters.  And yeah, any 
comercial entity goes out of its way to make sure that both copyright and 
trademark protection are in effect whenever possible. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNB1jlp6VRH7BJMxHAQHz3wQAnUW+3Xs2ezy4JhzvbLTT5jCJA3LXI4Z1 
h62X36iSEOkBDDLjNIzYioQD6QVCzp/LHxYW+6HfP2HoaATtfhGZCF41Ib9Du74+ 
sXV9yDY45h8GVoC+63BTUjWMxBav1unsyJZf3bYdMsZ/hgkcNovXJX8uPNR/34EQ 
VE8v4GgK9Ss= 
=FOx1 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 00:39:38 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Extradimensional Bases 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Bob Greenwade was patient enough with me to write: 
>At 09:01 PM 9/9/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>>The esteemed Mr. Greenwade wrote: 
>>>At 03:28 PM 9/9/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>>>   I'd go along with that YMMV.  OTOH, the XDM could be held by the base 
>>>itself, at least if it was a Gate (and possibly otherwise) 
>>> 
>>ooo...  hmm...  Um, but how would you use that Gate to get to the base? 
>>(Personally, I'm not familiar with the *exact* mechanics of the Gate, I 
>>don't own Mystic Masters.)  I assume it would be very similar to the old JLA 
>>satelite, with the teleporters, right? 
> 
>   That's the idea, at least; and I do think that the published mechanics 
>are at least similar.  (I do happen to have access to my copy of Mystic 
>Masters, but I'm too lazy to get up and go get it right at the moment.) 
 
        So, I assume it's an Area Effect (I think I saw this when it had 
been discussed before), and would be thrown on several hexes of the base. 
These hexes would be allocated to various cities across the globe (at least, 
that's the way that the JLA used to do it), as per the mention of this in 
the Base rules (BBB, p. 188, Floor Plans).  But these were Teleporter 
Booths, which were Invisible to everyone.  The only reason the Leaguers 
could find them is that they knew *exactly* where to look.  Would this be 
Invisibility bought for the Base, but with the Partial Coverage Limitation? 
        Also, I have found some posts from last semester about Gate. 
Teleportation or, in this case, EDM, with Usable By Others, and Open at Both 
Ends (-1/2 Limitation).  Does this sound right?  (Rat said it.)  But John 
Prins said it was Continuous, AE: Hex, UBO.  Possibly with "Open at Both 
Ends" and "Lasts an Extra Phase" as Limitations. 
        I dunno.  Anybody used a version that worked particularly well for them? 
 
- Jerry 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 01:57:38 +0000 
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 39 
 
On 15 Sep 97 at 8:08, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> At 04:18 PM 9/14/97 -0500, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
> > 
> >So does my Dad.  I don't want him writing my gaming supplements, either. :/ 
> >(NASCAR Hero, anyone?) 
>  
>    I'd buy it.  Even if I didn't buy everything Hero as soon as I have the 
> money to do so, I'd probably buy it. 
 
Personally, I rather liked Autoduel Champions. <G> 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:01:45 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Books in Champions Universe 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
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At 08:56 AM 9/15/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>On 9/14/97 4:18 PM, Vox Ludator! (ludator@mail.softfarm.com) Said: 
> 
>>> I can't even get a straight answer from Steve about whether the old CU  
>>> is going to be supported in Hero Plus materials. 
>> 
>>Have we ever gotten a straight answer from Steve about ANYTHING? :] 
> 
>Steve P. Is a lawyer; he, and others of his kind, are genetically  
>incapable of giving a straight answer. 
> 
 
now, now. . it's a defensive adaptation. . *l* 
 
 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: "Stephen B. Mann" <smann@cnsvax.albany.edu> 
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 23:05:07 -0400 
Subject: Hero System formula 
Newsgroups: october.hero 
X-Listname: Hero 
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Path: october.com!not-for-mail 
Lines: 11 
X-Sender: smann@Dialup057.colnny1.Capital.NET 
Nntp-Posting-Host: Dialup057.colnny1.Capital.NET 
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X-UID: 98 
 
 
 
Can anyone out there tell me how to convert Hero STR to weight 
lifted? I know that a 20 STR can lift 200 kb, but how much can a 31 STR 
lift? 
     Similarly, how fast is SPD 8, 13" Running, with x4 noncombat 
multiplier in MPH? How do I convert these numbers to real world 
measurements? 
 
--  
 
Stephen B. Mann               smann@cnsvax.albany.edu 
SUNY Learning Network         http://sln1.esc.edu 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 22:33:14 -0600 
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net> 
Subject: Re: You know you're a Hero player when...(archive) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Here is yet another one, sent to me by a friend. 
 
 
...the girlfriend you used to consider a DNPC is now the ex-girlfriend  
you consider a Hunted. 
 
 
--  
-Mhoram 
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 
 two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright 
 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 00:52:56 -0400 
Subject: Re: Scenario Ideas, etc. 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-11,15 
From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger) 
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I'd love to read people's scenario ideas.  Good thinking, John Stefanski. 
  
> 
>Has anyone here ever designed themselves as they wish they were,  
>based upon 250 points, just for fun? 
> 
>(If not, I'm going to feel really stupid.) 
> 
>Filksinger 
>"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
I have not done this.  When a friend of mine designed a villain team 
based on my wife and me, I returned the favor.  I created a villain based 
not just on him, but also reflecting two of his PCs based on him, and his 
family history. 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:03:09 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>At 01:57 AM 9/16/97 +0000, Filksinger wrote: 
>>On 15 Sep 97 at 8:08, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>> 
>>> At 04:18 PM 9/14/97 -0500, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>>> > 
>>> >So does my Dad.  I don't want him writing my gaming supplements, 
>either. :/ 
>>> >(NASCAR Hero, anyone?) 
>>>  
>>>    I'd buy it.  Even if I didn't buy everything Hero as soon as I have the 
>>> money to do so, I'd probably buy it. 
>> 
>>Personally, I rather liked Autoduel Champions. <G> 
> 
>   Yeah, I'm trying to find a copy locally.... 
 
I don't know.  I thought of it as a better supplement to Car Wars than Hero. 
That's why it's at home with my CW stuff.  But, for the completist...  I 
can't say, "Boo,"  'cause I own Champs, Champs II, and Champs III, along 
with the first Enemies book. 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:18:33 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: XP Awards (was Re: NND & Variable special effect) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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The esteemed (by me, anyway) Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   Hm.  I seem to have made the list of Esteemed Champions Minds.  Maybe 
>someday I'll be called a Champions Guru, and I'll start getting invited as 
>Guest Speaker at someone's Con.  Someday............   ;-) 
> 
Like I said, held in esteem by me.  : )  I dunno.  You've always posted 
intelligently and politely.  Your page kicks its own share of ass.  Huh.  I 
thought only GURPS GMs were GURUs?  And you'd probably have to publish some 
of those adventures to do the Con thing (unless it were a small con...). 
Keep trying, and I'll keep esteeming! 
 
>>This being said, I have used really three different (but similar) systems, 
>>which overlapped... 
>> 
>>1)  Started as 1 xp/session, +1 if it was especially long or the players 
>>were being really cool (kind of how I interpret playing well; if I had a 
>>good time...). 
>>This kind of morphed into... 
>>2)  2 xp/session, +1 if we played all night, +1 if the individual players 
>>were cool and/or funny, +1 for giving me cool drawings/backgrounds of the 
>>characters/events (one of the guys does *lovely* Anime-esque art, and I've 
>>had to cut that bonus back slightly). 
>>3) Flat, 1 xp/session (my most recent game, with the most players. 
>> 
>>With 1, I was just starting out, and simply used the table in the back of 
>>the book.  At 2, some of the players complained that they weren't advancing 
>>fast enough, and I didn't want unhappy players.  Also, S. John Ross told me 
>>of his "Bonus Starting Character Points" system (I don't think that's what 
>>he calls it) that he uses in GURPS.  He awards extra points *at character 
>>creation* for things like: character sketch/full description (at least a 
>>page, I believe); promise to do a character diary/log/chronicle, in 
>>character; and some other things, I forgot, I'll ask John.  3 was my most 
>>recent game, with the most players, and I didn't want to "play favorites" or 
>>upset anyone.  Plus, most of them were still exploring the system and the 
>>novelty of just playing their characters in this "new" (to them) system was 
>>enough. 
> 
>   Tailoring the xp awards to the needs of the group is a very sensible 
>idea that I admit has never occurred to me, and I've never seen it in print 
>or on the list either (at least not that I can think of).  We're so busy 
>with applying YMMV to character creation and combat rules and campaign 
>flavors that we forget that it can apply to something as obvious as 
>experience point awards. 
> 
Ooohhh...  Compliment!  Thanks. 
        Oh, and I talked to S John about his "bonus" system.  Like I said, 
he uses it for GURPS, and only gives the points out (AFAIK) at character 
creation.  Said he got the basic premise from an old Roleplayer.  Once I 
look that up, I'll post something about it, too.  (Unless everyone just 
wants me to shut up... : ) 
        Character Sketch: 5 pts 
        Ongoing Diary (750 wds/session minimum): 20 points 
        Tape Recording (taping each session, you provide the tapes them give 
them up): 30 points 
        Character History: 1 point per 250 words. 
        Purchase and paint a miniature specifically for your PC: 5 points. 
        And he listed "Other Deals and Bribes" as "Variable," stating that 
he once gave a player 10 points to bring pizza every session (the guy worked 
at Papa John's).  He also stated that the original article in Roleplayer 
where he gleaned some of this (before he modified it) mentioned giving out 5 
points for a player to work out ALL of the GURPS numbers ahead of time (long 
jump distance, short jump distance, one-hand lift, etc.  If you've played 
GURPS, you know of what I speak). 
        And I, as I mentioned, tend to give out points (during play) for 
things I like/find neat/cool.  Drawings, character stories, one guy painted 
a couple of miniatures (although I don't think he bought them especially for 
the game), and other stuff.  One guy mentioned dressing up in character 
(he's a Private Dick), which'd be worth a point, or two if I get a photo. 
This wouldn't work for all the characters (one of 'em has invisible 
forearms).  But I tend to extrapolate from examples I'm given. 
 
Right.  Long enough. 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:38:30 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Extra Defense Limitation 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 57 
 
Brain Wong wrote: 
>Here's an idea I got this morning. 
> 
>An Extra Defense Limitation. Under this idea a power could be stopped by 
>more than just one defense. 
>	For instance an EB that is stopped by both ED and PD, or say ED and 
>Flash Defence. 
>	Or a drain that can be stopped by Mental Defense and Power Defense. 
> 
>	A falsh stopped by both Power Defense and Flash Defense. 
> 
>Etc... 
>	I can see it for certain kinds of magic effects, or even an energy 
>or mental attack which targets the eyes... 
> 
>	Question is, what would it be worth. I imagine it would vary. 
>It's a lot more limiting to have a drain stopped by both ED and Power defense 
>than it is to have a falsh stopped by flash defense and power defense. 
> 
        I had thought of something *similar* last night.  How would one 
model the following Power:  I want a Mental Power that would reduce an 
opponent's EGO, making them more susceptible to incoming Mental Attacks. 
        I came up with: 
        2d6 Drain (v.EGO), fade rate: per 5 minutes, Invisible Power Effects 
(Sight + Hearing), No Range Penalty, Ranged.  This eliminated the need for 
BOECV, which I thought was a horrible way to go for this Power.  Inhibitive 
cost, and I don't think it would've modeled what I wanted very well. 
        Now my question is (to Mr. Wong, and others), how would I go about 
having this power act on EGO DEF instead of POW DEF?  Should I just assume 
it defaults to the same value? 
 
        As I see it, because of AVLD, Flash DEF/EGO DEF/POW DEF all have the 
same "value" as defenses.  Obviously, normal PD or ED have a greater 
"value," and then Resistant Defenses top the chart (ignoring, for now, 
Hardened Defenses, as this can be applied to any of these). 
 
        Possibly, to simply switch the Defense a Power works against, there 
would be no Limitation or Advantage.  To "upgrade" by one, might be +1/4. 
By two levels, +1/2? 
        To down grade, the inverse of the above Advantages (or whatever the 
individual GM decided) should be fine.  Maybe I'm getting this backwards? 
        And the above things I've written (which may or may not be at all 
good) could be extrapolated from to acquire the mulit-Defense Limitation 
value.  Or not.  My head hurts. 
   : ) 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:15:20 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 44 
 
At 01:57 AM 9/16/97 +0000, Filksinger wrote: 
>On 15 Sep 97 at 8:08, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>> At 04:18 PM 9/14/97 -0500, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>> > 
>> >So does my Dad.  I don't want him writing my gaming supplements, 
either. :/ 
>> >(NASCAR Hero, anyone?) 
>>  
>>    I'd buy it.  Even if I didn't buy everything Hero as soon as I have the 
>> money to do so, I'd probably buy it. 
> 
>Personally, I rather liked Autoduel Champions. <G> 
 
   Yeah, I'm trying to find a copy locally.... 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:22:52 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: NNDs- Are they broken? 
Cc: hero-l@omg.org 
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At 01:57 AM 9/16/97 +0000, Filksinger wrote: 
>>    A Drain NND with Range is 25 pts/d6; an Energy Blast AVLD is 12.5 
pts/d6. 
>>    Arguably, this is indeed (as I gather you're trying to say) too large of 
>> a price gap. 
> 
>Considering that the Energy Blast, if the AVLD is vs Power Defense,  
>has the same effectiveness as the Drain did before the NND, and the  
>Drain with the NND is, assuming a relatively common defense, less  
>effective that it was to begin with. 
> 
>I just thought of a good example. An NND could easily have Power  
>Defense as the defense. Thus, a Drain with that NND is obviously less  
>effective, for a +1 cost.  
 
   That depends on the specifics of the NND.  If the Defense is having any 
Power Defense at all, then it's probably less effective than the 
AVLD/Drain, depending on how common Power Defense is.  After all, just 1 
pip would completely stop the NND, but would barely affect the AVLD/Drain 
at all. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:34:03 -0700 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> (by way of Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com&> 
Subject: Re: NNDs- Are they broken? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 88 
 
On 15 Sep 97 at 7:57, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
   I think this got sent directly to me when it should've been sent to the 
list.... 
 
> At 01:34 AM 9/14/97 +0000, Filksinger wrote: 
> >Which lead me to a question- who thinks that NNDs need refining? 
> > 
> >Consider a STUN Drain NND and an Energy Blast NND. The Drain pays the  
> >same amount for NND that Energy Blast does, and gets the same effect.  
> >OTOH, the Energy Blast NND is actually cheaper than a AVLD, which  
> >would give you the same effect as the Drain did in the first place. 
>  
>    Not exactly.  An Energy Blast AVLD has range; a Drain does not (unless 
> you use the Range Advantage). 
 
Picky, picky.<G> Thanks for pointing that out, however. That will  
help, if I ever do an in depth cost analysis. 
 
> >Thus, Drain pays for a Advantage that could, logically, be considered  
> >a Limitation, because it gives up the equivalent of an AVLD for a  
> >NND.  
>  
>    A Drain NND with Range is 25 pts/d6; an Energy Blast AVLD is 12.5 pts/d6. 
>    Arguably, this is indeed (as I gather you're trying to say) too large of 
> a price gap. 
 
Considering that the Energy Blast, if the AVLD is vs Power Defense,  
has the same effectiveness as the Drain did before the NND, and the  
Drain with the NND is, assuming a relatively common defense, less  
effective that it was to begin with. 
 
I just thought of a good example. An NND could easily have Power  
Defense as the defense. Thus, a Drain with that NND is obviously less  
effective, for a +1 cost.  
 
<snip> 
>  
>    Looking here at a modifier that crosses the line between an Advantage 
> and a Limitation, then, like Charges (and END Battery from older editions)? 
 
Yes. As the example I just added shows, sometimes NND costs a lot  
more than it is worth. 
 
I have a rule in my campaign that mirrored the "A Limitation that 
doesn't limit is worth no points." In my campaign, an Advantage that 
isn't an Advantage costs nothing. Thus, if an attack against which 
the defense is rare takes NND with a more common defense, it cost 
nothing. 
 
<snip> 
 
> > 
> >Defense is: 
> > 
> >A partial defense  +1 (As with an AVLD) 
> >A total defense: 
> >  All the time  +1/2 (As NND vs a power, like LS) 
> >  A normal roll  +3/4 (Character makes roll, nothing happens) 
> > A -5 roll   +1 
>  
>    I'm not sure I understand these last two entries. 
 
I knew I forgot something. While typing this thing, it went through  
three variations. One of the previous one's explained the above. 
 
If I have an NND, where the defense is an EGO roll, then that would  
be a common defense for comparison purposes (everyone has EGO),  and  
it would be worth a +3/4, in addition to the commoness modifier. It  
is higher than A Total Defense: All the Time because the defense  
doesn't work all the time. 
 
Example: I have a DEX Drain Oil Slick, which is stopped completely vs  
Acrobatics. That would take the +1/2 cost. If the target needed  
Acrobatics, and also had to roll, that would be a +3/4. If the target  
needed an Acrobatics roll at -5 to defend against the attack, then  
the cost would be +1. 
 
> >Defense is: 
> >Much more common than normal defense -1 
> >More common than normal defense   -1/2 
> >As common as normal defense    +0 
> >Less common than normal defense   +1/2 
> >Much less common than normal defense +1 
>  
>    This is generally sensible, though I think I'd halve the modifiers 
 
I made the modifiers this size because A) it matched the values for  
NND and AVLD better and B) because if I didn't, I would still be  
paying points for changes that I think should be Limitations rather  
than Advantages. 
 
>  and 
> change the argument of how common to what the average value is (if someone 
> doesn't have it, the value is 0). 
 
I think I'd need both. There should be a difference between NND vs  
Life Support and NND vs Resistant PD. There should also be a  
difference between NND vs an EGO roll and NND vs a STR roll, as, on  
the average, characters have a higher STR roll.  
 
> >If the power has multiple defenses, then the other defenses are taken  
> >as standard limitations. 
>    [Examples clipped for some semblence of brevity] 
> >What do you guys think? 
>  
>    This is an interesting idea, if nothing else.  It could use a little 
> fleshing out and balancing, though -- but that's what we're here for!   :-] 
 
Considering that I created it when I was typing it, I think it came  
out pretty well. I did need to chuck it three times and start over,  
though. One time, I got the effect of the commoness of defenses  
backwards, so that going from defense PD to defense Power Defense  
would have been a Limitation, but the other way around would have  
been an Advantage. Not good. 
 
All in all, I haven't decided in favor of it, but I like it for a  
first draft. Ultimate Advantages and Limitations book, anyone? 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
 
 
From: BCBattle@aol.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:36:20 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Champion Comics 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 49 
 
On 97-09-16 10:24:59 EDT, jstefanski@internetmci.com (John Stefanski) wrote: 
 
>If anyone is interested, I have the complete set of hero comics. This 
includes:  
 
>"Champions Mini-series" 1-6,  
>"Champions (Unlimited?)" 1-12,  
>"Champions Annual" 1, " 
>"The League of Champions" 1-3 
>"Captain Thunder & Blue Bolt" 1-4 
>The Flare Mini-series, 
>The Marksman Mini-series, and 
>The Rose Mini-series. 
 
I think there may be more to it than what you currently own.  I myself have 
copies of: 
 
Champions Annual 1 and 2,  
League of Champions 1-3, 4, 5, 6, 9 and 10 
Captain Thunder and Blue Bolt (Hero Comics) 1-4, 5, 6, 7, 9 and 10 
Captain Thunder and Blue Bolt (Hero Graphics) 1 and 2 
The Lady Arcane mini-series 1, 2 and 4 (of 5) 
Marksman Annual 1 
 
As for Flare: 
 
Flare (Hero Comics) 1-3 
Flare (Heroic) 1-10 
Flare Adventures 1-3 and 12 
Flare Annual 1 
Flare First Edition 1, 2, 4, 6 and 10 
 
And the Icicle mini-series:  1-4 (of 4)   
 
And I'm pretty sure there was a Sparkplug special or two as well as a couple 
of things that exclusively involved Foxbat in his own title.  So far, I have 
yet to latch onto those as well as the Marksman mini-series. 
 
BCB 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:49:50 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 47 
 
 
> > And the excuse really is in that last statement.  All of the NNDs 
> >of differing SFX use the same mechanics for damage purposes.  They aren't 
> >really different NNDs. 
> 
>    Modification:  They're different, but not *that* different.  The special 
> effects that neutralize them overlap, making them at least marginally 
> acceptable. 
 
	However, the one defense of hard armor cover would be enough for 
any one of them.  Each just takes more defense than is needed making each 
less effective than they have to be. 
 
 
		-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:54:02 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: XP Awards (was Re: NND & Variable special effect) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 48 
 
 
 
>    Tailoring the xp awards to the needs of the group is a very sensible 
> idea that I admit has never occurred to me, and I've never seen it in print 
> or on the list either (at least not that I can think of).  We're so busy 
> with applying YMMV to character creation and combat rules and campaign 
> flavors that we forget that it can apply to something as obvious as 
> experience point awards. 
 
 
	I've had the standing offer in all of my campaigns for an extra XP 
each session if the player comes with a diary/journal/report in character 
of the previous game and/or 'off-screen' events.  For really good ones 
I'll give a bonus XP above the one. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:57:24 -0700 (PDT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 53 
 
> > 
> >Uh, your sig has 404ed. 
>  
>    I caught that the same time you did.  It should now be corrected (below). 
>    Thanks for the note, though. 
> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
	I'm not one to normally tute somebody else's horn, but there's 
some real cool stuff on this page people. Like a diceless system for hero 
and several other ideas. One complaint though. No pictures/drawings for 
any of the characters. :( 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com> 
Subject: Extra Defense Limitation 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:04:03 -0700 (PDT) 
Reply-To: hero-l@omg.org 
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Here's an idea I got this morning. 
 
An Extra Defense Limitation. Under this idea a power could be stopped by 
more than just one defense. 
	For instance an EB that is stopped by both ED and PD, or say ED and 
Flash Defence. 
	Or a drain that can be stopped by Mental Defense and Power Defense. 
 
	A falsh stopped by both Power Defense and Flash Defense. 
 
Etc... 
	I can see it for certain kinds of magic effects, or even an energy 
or mental attack which targets the eyes... 
 
	Question is, what would it be worth. I imagine it would vary. 
It's a lot more limiting to have a drain stopped by both ED and Power defense 
than it is to have a falsh stopped by flash defense and power defense. 
 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Champion Comics 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:06:05 -0700 (PDT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 51 
 
A lot of this stuff has been scanned in and put on the web by the 
authors. I was looking at it last night, but it's bookmarked on 
another machine... 
 
	Maybe I'll post the URL if I can find it tonight. 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Champion Comics (WEBSITE URL) 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:21:55 -0700 (PDT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 55 
 
Ok; I found the stuff. 
 
The Champions comic books website is: 
 
http://www.heroicpub.com/ 
 
-- 
Rook 
Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC 
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system 
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all) 
 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at 
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca> 
From: "Vance Scott" <vances@sympatico.ca> 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 16:41:29 +0000 
Subject: GM's Corner - Quests. Re: Scenario Ideas, etc. 
Reply-to: vances@sympatico.ca 
Priority: normal 
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> >Has anyone here ever designed themselves as they wish they were,  
> >based upon 250 points, just for fun? 
 
Having played Villains and Vigilantes I have made characters with  
myself as the starting point, and then later converted them into  
Champions. I was White Bear a brick wearing a mystical polar bear rug  
that impowered me with various super powers. 
 
> >(If not, I'm going to feel really stupid.) 
> I have not done this.  When a friend of mine designed a villain team 
> based on my wife and me, I returned the favor.  I created a villain based 
> not just on him, but also reflecting two of his PCs based on him, and his 
> family history. 
 
I never turned my friends into villains, but they have been the  
inspiration for a few supporting characters. I've used various school  
yard bullies as the basis for villains from both elementary, and  
secondary school. Having a real person as a model for a character  
gives you something to keep in mind, and will make your characters  
more realistic, and consistant. 
 
 
As for scenario ideas most rpg adventures are event driven stories  
where the heroes are given the task of setting things right. In these  
stories something is wrong, or has gone wrong with the world, and it  
is the heroes duty to restore the world to its proper order. The  
injustice may be a long standing one like an oppressive feudal lord  
the heroes must overthrow, or it maybe a recent problem like  
capturing an escaped prisoner. Provided below is a list of general  
tasks that are the key stone to many story plots. Event driven  
stories are quest stories where the heroes are given a task to  
accomplish. 
 
Rescue: This usually involves saving a person, place, or thing from  
imprisonment, destruction, or injury. 
 
Guard: This involves protecting a person, place, or thing from  
capture, destruction, or injury. 
 
Hunt: This involves finding, and capturing, or killing a person, place  
or thing. 
 
Escape: This involves fleeing, or escaping a person, place, or thing. 
 
Investigation: This involves exploring, researching, and studying a  
person, place, or thing. 
 
Prevent: This involves thwarting the efforts, and schemes of a  
person, or thing. 
 
Attack: This involves any attempt to weaken, or destroy an opponent. 
 
Most stories can be event driven, or action based stories can be  
classified in one of the proceeding quests. 
 
comments are welcome, and additions are even more welcome. 
 
Vance Scott 
 
Vanquisher of all foes. 
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:04:13 -0700 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: Extra Defense Limitation 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 09:04 AM 9/16/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote: 
 
>	Question is, what would it be worth. I imagine it would vary. 
>It's a lot more limiting to have a drain stopped by both ED and Power defense 
>than it is to have a falsh stopped by flash defense and power defense. 
> 
Stopped by the SUM of the defenses, or the higher of the defenses? 
 
If the latter, I'd say -1/4. If the former, -1. 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <swhbfssg@pop.softnet.co.uk> 
From: "MarkBarltrop" <Mark.Barltrop@kzin.softnet.co.uk> 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:30:59 +0100 
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect 
Reply-to: tachyon@kzin.softnet.co.uk 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Return-receipt-to: tachyon@kzin.softnet.co.uk 
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On 14 Sep 97 at 21:36, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
>  
> > Martial Arts- both Hwarang-do & Ninjitsu allow 2 different NNDs, Plus 
> > there would be no reason why someone with those styles could not have 
> > their own NND. For example if Scorpia, say, had either of those 
> > styles instead of Generic Comic book, She would have 3 NNDs. (though 
> > in her case all 3 would be stopped by solid armour). 
>  
>  And the excuse really is in that last statement.  All of the NNDs 
> of differing SFX use the same mechanics for damage purposes.  They 
> aren't really different NNDs. 
>  
>  
> > Although strictly speaking those 2 styles are illegal under the Hero 
> > system (I'm assuming these weren't changed in USM), the fact that 
> > they would both be stopped by solid armour might well explain the 
> > exemption, and as someone else said earlier, allowing multiple NNDs 
> > as long as one (fairly common) defence stops all of them could be the 
> > way to go. 
>  
>  
>  Illegal?  First I've heard anything to that effect.  Explain. 
>  
(Well, since you asked so nicely:-)) 
I simply mean they're illegal because they allow you to have 2 NNDs. 
(though in fact, it doesn't mean you can't use those styles, just  
that you can't  buy both NND manoeuvres .) 
Mark Barltrop (tachyon@kzin.softnet.co.uk) 
'What is it?' 
'Its a wolf!' 
'In a city? What does it find to eat?' 
'Oh, why did you have to ask that?' 
(Terry Pratchett,'Feet of Clay') 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Extra Defense Limitation 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:31:19 -0700 (PDT) 
Cc: hero-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 71 
 
>  
> At 09:04 AM 9/16/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote: 
>  
> >	Question is, what would it be worth. I imagine it would vary. 
> >It's a lot more limiting to have a drain stopped by both ED and Power defense 
> >than it is to have a falsh stopped by flash defense and power defense. 
> > 
> Stopped by the SUM of the defenses, or the higher of the defenses? 
>  
> If the latter, I'd say -1/4. If the former, -1. 
>  
 
	Both. They're both valid concepts. 
Course I imagine a power stopped by the sum of PD and ED would be more than 
a -1 lim in most games. 
	But the sum of flash defense and power defense in many games might 
not be very limiting. 
 
Subject: Re: Extra Defense Limitation 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 13:32:56 -0500 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
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On 9/16/97 11:04 AM, Brian Wong (rook@sanfran.infinex.com) Said: 
 
>An Extra Defense Limitation. Under this idea a power could be stopped by 
>more than just one defense. 
>	For instance an EB that is stopped by both ED and PD, or say ED and 
>Flash Defence. 
 
>	Question is, what would it be worth. I imagine it would vary. 
>It's a lot more limiting to have a drain stopped by both ED and Power defense 
>than it is to have a falsh stopped by flash defense and power defense. 
 
Lets say you have a 10 d6 EB, stopped by both ED & Flash Def. 
 
You shoot me. 
 
Do I... 
A) Apply the larger of my Flash Def/ED 
B) Add them together, then apply as a single DEF 
C) Something else (split attack into two 1/2 attacks ala Red. Pen. ) 
 
Now lets say I have _no_ flash def. You got a limitation on your EB that  
isn't very limiting against me, granted this is true many times, but I  
think this could be abused. I think that the attack power should have to  
first take AVLD. 
 
Just my .02 
 
The popularity of Windows surged in 1995, when  | 
Microsoft began shipping Windows 95, which      |  David A. Fair 
included many innovations that the Macintosh    |  SDS International 
had introduced 10 years earlier.                |  dfair@sdslink.com 
          - Reuters, Friday, July 18, 1997      | 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 16:00:14 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 76 
 
 
 
> >  Illegal?  First I've heard anything to that effect.  Explain. 
> > 
> (Well, since you asked so nicely:-)) 
> I simply mean they're illegal because they allow you to have 2 NNDs. 
> (though in fact, it doesn't mean you can't use those styles, just 
> that you can't  buy both NND manoeuvres .) 
 
 
	Actually, I'd have to disagree based on the fact of both NNDs 
sharing a common defense to stop them with more defenses piled on top. 
Both NNDs are less effective than they have to be.  Nothing illegal here 
at all. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:57:07 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 86 
 
At 10:49 AM 9/16/97 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>> > And the excuse really is in that last statement.  All of the NNDs 
>> >of differing SFX use the same mechanics for damage purposes.  They aren't 
>> >really different NNDs. 
>> 
>>    Modification:  They're different, but not *that* different.  The special 
>> effects that neutralize them overlap, making them at least marginally 
>> acceptable. 
> 
> However, the one defense of hard armor cover would be enough for 
>any one of them.  Each just takes more defense than is needed making each 
>less effective than they have to be. 
 
   No "However" about it, Tim; that's basically what I'm getting at. 
(Though the hard armor requirement is for different locations IIRC, so 
someone who had only partial coverage might be immune to one but not to 
another, never minding the other defenses against each.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:57:07 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: NND & Variable special effect 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 89 
 
At 10:49 AM 9/16/97 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>> > And the excuse really is in that last statement.  All of the NNDs 
>> >of differing SFX use the same mechanics for damage purposes.  They aren't 
>> >really different NNDs. 
>> 
>>    Modification:  They're different, but not *that* different.  The special 
>> effects that neutralize them overlap, making them at least marginally 
>> acceptable. 
> 
> However, the one defense of hard armor cover would be enough for 
>any one of them.  Each just takes more defense than is needed making each 
>less effective than they have to be. 
 
   No "However" about it, Tim; that's basically what I'm getting at. 
(Though the hard armor requirement is for different locations IIRC, so 
someone who had only partial coverage might be immune to one but not to 
another, never minding the other defenses against each.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:06:04 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: XP Awards (was Re: NND & Variable special effect) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 90 
 
At 11:18 AM 9/16/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>The esteemed (by me, anyway) Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>   Hm.  I seem to have made the list of Esteemed Champions Minds.  Maybe 
>>someday I'll be called a Champions Guru, and I'll start getting invited as 
>>Guest Speaker at someone's Con.  Someday............   ;-) 
>> 
>Like I said, held in esteem by me.  : )  I dunno.  You've always posted 
>intelligently and politely.  Your page kicks its own share of ass.  Huh.  I 
>thought only GURPS GMs were GURUs?  And you'd probably have to publish some 
>of those adventures to do the Con thing (unless it were a small con...). 
>Keep trying, and I'll keep esteeming! 
 
   I dunno.  Seems to me Shelley Chrystal Mactyre would be a good candidate 
for a con guest, though Guest of Honor would be unlikely. 
   And Aaron Allston has been referred to as a Champions Guru for so long 
that he appeared in the drawing on the cover of one of the Justice, Inc. 
books wearing a T-shirt reading, "I am not a Champions Guru."  (Also see 
his home page; I don't have the exact URL handy, but I'm sure someone else 
does.  It has a drawing that has to be seen to be believed.) 
 
>>   Tailoring the xp awards to the needs of the group is a very sensible 
>>idea that I admit has never occurred to me, and I've never seen it in print 
>>or on the list either (at least not that I can think of).  We're so busy 
>>with applying YMMV to character creation and combat rules and campaign 
>>flavors that we forget that it can apply to something as obvious as 
>>experience point awards. 
>> 
>Ooohhh...  Compliment!  Thanks. 
>        Oh, and I talked to S John about his "bonus" system.  Like I said, 
>he uses it for GURPS, and only gives the points out (AFAIK) at character 
>creation.  Said he got the basic premise from an old Roleplayer.  Once I 
>look that up, I'll post something about it, too.  (Unless everyone just 
>wants me to shut up... : ) 
 
   Please don't shut up on our account.  This is very informative. 
 
>        Character Sketch: 5 pts 
>        Ongoing Diary (750 wds/session minimum): 20 points 
>        Tape Recording (taping each session, you provide the tapes them give 
>them up): 30 points 
>        Character History: 1 point per 250 words. 
>        Purchase and paint a miniature specifically for your PC: 5 points. 
 
   How do these points compare to Character Points in Hero? 
 
>        And he listed "Other Deals and Bribes" as "Variable," stating that 
>he once gave a player 10 points to bring pizza every session (the guy worked 
>at Papa John's).  He also stated that the original article in Roleplayer 
>where he gleaned some of this (before he modified it) mentioned giving out 5 
>points for a player to work out ALL of the GURPS numbers ahead of time (long 
>jump distance, short jump distance, one-hand lift, etc.  If you've played 
>GURPS, you know of what I speak). 
 
   Hm.  I wonder if I should implement a policy of awarding +1 xp per $5 
slipped to the GM.  (Dang, all of a sudden I'm actually *wishing* that my 
players were powergamers!) 
 
>        And I, as I mentioned, tend to give out points (during play) for 
>things I like/find neat/cool.  Drawings, character stories, one guy painted 
>a couple of miniatures (although I don't think he bought them especially for 
>the game), and other stuff.  One guy mentioned dressing up in character 
>(he's a Private Dick), which'd be worth a point, or two if I get a photo. 
>This wouldn't work for all the characters (one of 'em has invisible 
>forearms).  But I tend to extrapolate from examples I'm given. 
 
   I may go and discuss this with my players. 
   I'm also thinking of recording WAV files of the characters' quotes and 
posting them to the Justifiers' section of my website.  (I've been 
practicing my voice as Rattler.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:35:11 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Drain to Zero 
Cc: hero-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 87 
 
At 08:57 AM 9/16/97 -0700, you wrote: 
>> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
>>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
> 
> I'm not one to normally tute somebody else's horn, but there's 
>some real cool stuff on this page people. Like a diceless system for hero 
>and several other ideas. One complaint though. No pictures/drawings for 
>any of the characters. :( 
 
   Thanks for the plug, Brian. 
   I echo the frowny-face for the lack of art (I can't even draw a straight 
line using a ruler), that *may* change soon.  And I am looking for 
volunteers. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:56:40 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: XP Awards (was Re: NND & Variable special effect) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 94 
 
Bob Greenwade (still held in esteem) wrote: 
>   I dunno.  Seems to me Shelley Chrystal Mactyre would be a good candidate 
>for a con guest, though Guest of Honor would be unlikely. 
        I'd agree with that.  I respect her Net-work very much, and have 
greatly enjoyed all the work she has done.  Again, GoH would probably be a 
*published* author... 
>   And Aaron Allston has been referred to as a Champions Guru for so long 
>that he appeared in the drawing on the cover of one of the Justice, Inc. 
>books wearing a T-shirt reading, "I am not a Champions Guru."  (Also see 
>his home page; I don't have the exact URL handy, but I'm sure someone else 
>does.  It has a drawing that has to be seen to be believed.) 
        Ah.  Yes, I seem to remember something about that.  *I* was 
referring to the defintion of GURU (I believe) coined by S John Ross: GURU - 
Generic Universal Roleplaying Umpire.  Obviously, you were referring to a 
more generic guru. (more generic than Generic?) 
 
>>        Character Sketch: 5 pts 
>>        Ongoing Diary (750 wds/session minimum): 20 points 
>>        Tape Recording (taping each session, you provide the tapes them give 
>>them up): 30 points 
>>        Character History: 1 point per 250 words. 
>>        Purchase and paint a miniature specifically for your PC: 5 points. 
> 
>   How do these points compare to Character Points in Hero? 
> 
        Well, the "average" heroic GURPS character is 100 pt, +40 for 
Disadvantages, +5 for Quirks.  Some "heroic" campaigns raise this up to 
anywhere near double.  And the "average" Supers game in GURPS runs 500, 
+100, +5.  Personally, I'd probably just leave the points where they were, 
but for comparability, you may want to halve the values. 
 
>>he once gave a player 10 points to bring pizza every session (the guy worked 
> 
>   Hm.  I wonder if I should implement a policy of awarding +1 xp per $5 
>slipped to the GM.  (Dang, all of a sudden I'm actually *wishing* that my 
>players were powergamers!) 
> 
        Well, an adventure module (written by S John) for Tales From the 
Floating Vagabond (an out-of-print game system from Avalon Hill) lists XP 
bonuses like: general award, 100 points; completion of the goals (without 
too much nudging), 200 points; they paid for the beer and pizza, 50 points. 
("Let's encourage this sort of blatant bootlicking...")  I should point out 
this one's a COMEDY game, though. 
 
>   I may go and discuss this with my players. 
        *GOOD* idea.  This is something that could be abused, or at least 
taken advantage of.  Personally, I don't *need* two dozen character 
sketches.  After a while, they all kind of blend together, anyway.  (Two of 
my players are notorious for drawing.  One does it just 'cause he loves it, 
and the XP are BONUS.  The other does it for the points.  I've been forced 
to cut back due to the large influx of paper from these guys.) 
>   I'm also thinking of recording WAV files of the characters' quotes and 
>posting them to the Justifiers' section of my website.  (I've been 
>practicing my voice as Rattler.) 
        I think that's pretty cool.  Me and my players aren't voice actors, 
though. 
 
- Jerry 
 
From: samael@clark.net (Acid Rainbow) 
Subject: Re: Invisible attacks/beestings 
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 08:02:57 GMT 
Organization: Disorganized 
Reply-To: samael@clark.net 
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On Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:15:15 +0100, Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
sent these symbols into the net: 
 
>The reason that wasp and bee stings hurt is because they are acidic/alkaline 
> (I can't remember which but you can take th esting awy by neutralising the 
>sting..) 
> 
>And who says that my toxin is not strong that even a minute doesage of it 
>is enough to kill? 
> Remember poisons do not have to be injested to kill, contact with the skin 
>is often enough. 
> 
  Bees are acidic, Wasps 're alkaline, I know this from RL experience, 
*never* let *anybody* put baking soda on a wasp sting. For me, if a wasp 
sting is left alone, it fades < 1 hour, but with baking soda it swells up 
and is there for 2-3 days. 
********************************************************************** 
*Lissajous patterns and windmills and don't ask about the connection.* 
*       Acid Rainbow: Semi-professional windmill-tilter.             * 
********************************************************************** 
 
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 08:21:01 GMT 
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk 
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Steve McGinness) 
Subject: Re: Extra Defense Limitation 
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At 12:38 PM 16/9/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>        I had thought of something *similar* last night.  How would one 
>model the following Power:  I want a Mental Power that would reduce an 
>opponent's EGO, making them more susceptible to incoming Mental Attacks. 
>        I came up with: 
>        2d6 Drain (v.EGO), fade rate: per 5 minutes, Invisible Power Effects 
>(Sight + Hearing), No Range Penalty, Ranged.  This eliminated the need for 
>BOECV, which I thought was a horrible way to go for this Power.  Inhibitive 
>cost, and I don't think it would've modeled what I wanted very well. 
>        Now my question is (to Mr. Wong, and others), how would I go about 
>having this power act on EGO DEF instead of POW DEF?  Should I just assume 
>it defaults to the same value? 
 
I'd have thought that you might have two ways to go about this. It would, as  
always, depend on the special effects of your character, and how  
specifically you thought of the susceptibility affecting the target. 
 
I had two thoughts that might just be cheaper and more applicable than what  
you have come up with. 
 
1: You concentrate and mentally find the weaknesses in his mental defences,  
this could be modelled by skill levels with ego attacks that cost END.  
Obviously this would only affect attacks made by yourself. 
 
2: You send pulses of mental energy that scramble his defences which is more  
obviously suppress vs mental defence and would make the target vulnerable to  
any incoming ego attacks etc. 
 
The first would not even require a to hit roll to work. 
> 
>- Jerry 
> 
 
I gave an old villain of mine a similar style of power. I wanted a hard to  
put down villain that would not initially worry the heroes, but become  
increasingly dangerous. I linked his STR to a PD drain and an NND (padded  
defences). The drain was limited by the number of STUN damage rolled by the  
NND and the NND didn't actually do any damage at all, it was more of a  
limiter than anything else! I was going through a phase of designing  
exceptionally complex powers!!!! 
 
When Bruiser met the heroes his punches were only 5 or 6D6 and the players  
laughed at the amount of damage he was doing (I kept the drain and NND  
secret and just told them that although there was no damage they felt a bit  
tender where he had hit them, and a nasty bruise had begun to appear). They  
thought that it was all special effects until I told them they were  
beginning to take damage..... 
 
 
 
Stephen 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 14:29:32 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Hero System formula 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Stephen B. Mann wrote: 
>Can anyone out there tell me how to convert Hero STR to weight 
>lifted? I know that a 20 STR can lift 200 kb, but how much can a 31 STR 
>lift? 
        Okay, to get the lift capacity of STR 31, multiply the lift capacity 
of STR 30 by the fifth root of 2.  I know it sound complicated, but that's 
the exponential relationship. 
        Ex.  STR 30 -> 3200 kg lift 
               STR 31 -> (3200 * [5th rt 2]) -> ~3676 kg 
               STR 32 -> (3200 * [5th rt 2]squared) -> ~4222 kg 
               STR 33 -> (3200 * [5th rt 2]to the 3rd) -> ~4850 kg 
               STR 34 -> (3200 * [5th rt 2]to the 4th) -> ~5572 kg 
               STR 35 -> (3200 * [5th rt 2]to the 5th) -> 6400 kg 
        You'll notice that the fifth root of two to the fifth power is, 
simply, 2.  Which gives us the actual "book" lifting value of STR 35.  Also 
notice that I'm using the true exponential form, which means that STR 33 
lifts slightly more than "book" value.  (The book lists STR 33 as 1.5x STR 
30, my method says it's ~1.51572x.) 
>     Similarly, how fast is SPD 8, 13" Running, with x4 noncombat 
>multiplier in MPH? How do I convert these numbers to real world 
>measurements? 
> 
        SPD * inches noncombat movement * 2 * 5 * 60 / 1000 = km/h 
        Ex.  Using the numbers you gave above... 
        8 (SPD) * 52 (inches of noncombat movement) * 2 (to translate inches 
to meters) 
                * 5 (to translate 1 turn to 1 minute) * 60 (to translate 1 
minute to 1 hour) 
                / 1000 (to translate meters to kilometers) = 249.6 km/h 
 
        1 km = ~0.621 mi (my Physics book) 
        1 kg = ~2.2 lb (BBB, although mass and weight are not truly equivalent) 
 
        So, a STR 31 could lift ~8087 lb (~4 tons), and your speedster could 
run ~155 mph. 
 
Questions? 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:41:52 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Outrunning an Explosion... 
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Ok, we've all seen the Flash and even Superman do it.  They blow something  
up at close range and before the explosion has a chance to reach them they  
are out of harm's way.  In fact, I have a player who has seen this and we  
left the game hanging there.  He wants to blow up an energy source and  
outrace the explosion.  In Champions terms how would this be done?  Dive for  
Cover just doesn't cut it.  He would be at so many negatives that he would  
never make the roll, but he is a speedster and much like the Flash should be  
able to do it.  Sure, I could just LET him do it, but then he might start  
trying to pull that off during battles.  How would this be done?  I was  
thinking maybe if he wants to pull that move off on a regular basis he  
should buy 2 point levels with Dive For Cover to help out?  Sounds the best  
to me.  Take it easy and talk at you later. 
Sparx 
 
==================================================== 
Friends help you move.  Real friends help you move bodies. 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:45:05 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 07:41 AM 9/17/97 -0500, Sparx wrote: 
>Ok, we've all seen the Flash and even Superman do it.  They blow something  
>up at close range and before the explosion has a chance to reach them they  
>are out of harm's way.  In fact, I have a player who has seen this and we  
>left the game hanging there.  He wants to blow up an energy source and  
>outrace the explosion.  In Champions terms how would this be done?  Dive for  
>Cover just doesn't cut it.  He would be at so many negatives that he would  
>never make the roll, but he is a speedster and much like the Flash should be  
>able to do it.  Sure, I could just LET him do it, but then he might start  
>trying to pull that off during battles.  How would this be done?  I was  
>thinking maybe if he wants to pull that move off on a regular basis he  
>should buy 2 point levels with Dive For Cover to help out?  Sounds the best  
>to me.  Take it easy and talk at you later. 
 
   Yeah, I just checked the book for possibilities for this in the BBB, and 
only two things give even a little help. 
   You could allow the character to Set beforehand, giving a +1.  (This is 
pushing the officiality of the rules a little, but every little bit helps.) 
   You could also allow the character to prepare for a bit of time, giving 
+1 for every level on the Time Chart starting with a full Phase.  I don't 
think I'd let a character prepare for over a minute, though (for a +3). 
   So I think your approach is probably best.  Let the character take 
2-point Combat Skill Levels w/Diving For Cover Against Self-Triggered 
Explosions (you may want to charge more, but this is what I'd say). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca> 
From: "Vance Scott" <vances@sympatico.ca> 
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 14:50:45 +0000 
Subject: Re: (Genre Question) Teen Aged Heroes. Is it a viable construct 
Reply-to: vances@sympatico.ca 
CC: hero-l@emerald.omg.org 
Priority: normal 
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Teen age Superheroes are definitely viable. If the concept wasn't  
viable there wouldn't be comics based on teams with exclusive  
teenaged members.  
 
In most campaigns teen supers should be treated in much the same way  
as their older compatriots. Some adventures should focus on the fact  
the team members are teenagers. A team of paranormal teenagers would   
of course have more teenage enemies, and teenage allies than an adult  
team. Another difference would be how the player characters spend  
their off hours. The focus of most teenagers lives will be school,  
friends, and family. Teenage superheroes will have to intergrate  
their ordinary life with their heroic life. Teenage heroes are most  
likely more daring, and less careful than older superheroes.  
 
 
Vance Scott 
 
Vanquisher of all foes. 
 
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:56:18 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion... 
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On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Sparx wrote: 
 
> Ok, we've all seen the Flash and even Superman do it.  They blow something  
> up at close range and before the explosion has a chance to reach them they  
> are out of harm's way.  In fact, I have a player who has seen this and we  
> left the game hanging there.  He wants to blow up an energy source and  
> outrace the explosion.  In Champions terms how would this be done?  Dive for  
> Cover just doesn't cut it.  He would be at so many negatives that he would  
> never make the roll, but he is a speedster and much like the Flash should be  
> able to do it.  Sure, I could just LET him do it, but then he might start  
> trying to pull that off during battles.  How would this be done?  I was  
> thinking maybe if he wants to pull that move off on a regular basis he  
> should buy 2 point levels with Dive For Cover to help out?  Sounds the best  
> to me. 
 
Levels with Dive For Cover seem like a good way to handle this. This sort 
of thing is why speedsters generally have those ridiculously high DEX 
scores. I'd be curious to hear more specific numbers involved. What is the 
speedster's DEX? How big an explosion does he want to outrun?  
 
The Dive for Cover approach simulates things just fine for a small 
explosion, at least. With extemely large explosions, though, I can see how 
there might be some difficulties. A good speedster should be able to 
outrun the shockwave of a nuclear explosion (but maybe not the light & 
other radiation), but it gets awfully difficult to make a Dive for Cover 
over many miles. The problem is with the explosion advantage, which treats 
the explosions as instantaneous. As a GM, I might arbitrarily assign a 
rate to the explosion, but that's not exactly sticking to the letter of 
the rules. I suppose you could always stick a -1/4 limitation on large 
bombs, "Explosion spreads at 10"/ segment" (or whatever), but it's a 
pretty questionable limitation, especially seeing how plenty of explosive 
things have been written up and I've never seen anyone bother with a rate 
of explosion. Has anyone dealt with this before? 
 
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:30:40 -0400 
From: seleena@fred.net (E. David Miller) 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion... 
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>>Ok, we've all seen the Flash and even Superman do it.  They blow something 
>>up at close range and before the explosion has a chance to reach them they 
>>are out of harm's way.  In fact, I have a player who has seen this and we 
>>left the game hanging there.  He wants to blow up an energy source and 
>>outrace the explosion.  In Champions terms how would this be done?  Dive for 
>>Cover just doesn't cut it.  He would be at so many negatives that he would 
>>never make the roll, but he is a speedster and much like the Flash should be 
>>able to do it.  Sure, I could just LET him do it, but then he might start 
>>trying to pull that off during battles.  How would this be done?  I was 
>>thinking maybe if he wants to pull that move off on a regular basis he 
>>should buy 2 point levels with Dive For Cover to help out?  Sounds the best 
>>to me.  Take it easy and talk at you later. 
>>Sparx 
> 
>        Well, as I see it, you have a few choices which will allow you to 
>adjudicate this possibility. 
> 
>1) Set a DEX for the exploding device, and then allow the character to 
>attempt a full phase of running to escape the totallity of the blast range 
>of the explosion.  If he doesn't make it, maybe he is in the outer rings, 
>and takes much less damage, and is thrown clear the rest of the way. 
> 
>2) Give the character a bonus to his Dive For Cover roll for every inch he 
>has in his movement power above and beyond the distance he needs to cover 
>to be safe. 
> 
>3) This is the most complicated/convoluted method.  Divide the character's 
>movement power by 6; then apply a -1 penalty for every X number of hexes 
>away the character must reach, X being the character's movement divided by 
>6.  This represents the fact that it is easier for the character to travel 
>longer distances by making his dive for cover ranges proportional to the 
>number of times faster than a normal human he is. 
> 
> 
>Hope one or all of these helps, 
>David Miller 
> 
> 
>PS - Yes, if he decides to make this a regular thing, i would require him 
>to begin purchase of Dive For Cover skill levels (though I _might_ be kind 
>enough to allow that purchase within his Speed Powers EC or his Speedster 
>Tricks MP....). 
> 
> 
 
___________________________________________________________________________ 
| seleena@bigdog.-> |There are 3 temporal dimensions, just as there are 3 | 
| ->fred.net        |spatial; T, the passage of time; Tau, the changes in | 
|-------------------|possible outcomes/decisions; Teh, the alternate bases| 
| E. David Miller   |of reality.  Thus, all that ever has been dreamed,   | 
|-------------------|IS, somewhen.  And somewhen, we are all simply a     | 
|Faith, and Dreams. |dream.  Or, by perspective, a nightmare.             | 
|___________________|_____________________________________________________| 
 
 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 22:40:09 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Extra Defense Limitation 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Steve McGinness wrote: 
>Jeremiah Driscoll (that's me) wrote: 
>>        I had thought of something *similar* last night.  How would one 
>>model the following Power:  I want a Mental Power that would reduce an 
>>opponent's EGO, making them more susceptible to incoming Mental Attacks. 
>>        I came up with: 
>>        2d6 Drain (v.EGO), fade rate: per 5 minutes, Invisible Power Effects 
>>(Sight + Hearing), No Range Penalty, Ranged.  This eliminated the need for 
>>BOECV, which I thought was a horrible way to go for this Power.  Inhibitive 
>>cost, and I don't think it would've modeled what I wanted very well. 
>>        Now my question is (to Mr. Wong, and others), how would I go about 
>>having this power act on EGO DEF instead of POW DEF?  Should I just assume 
>>it defaults to the same value? 
> 
>I had two thoughts that might just be cheaper and more applicable than what  
>you have come up with. 
> 
Um.  I hadn't mentioned it, but the Power was in a Multipower anyway... but 
thanks for keeping point savings in mind!  : ) 
 
>1: You concentrate and mentally find the weaknesses in his mental defences,  
>this could be modelled by skill levels with ego attacks that cost END.  
>Obviously this would only affect attacks made by yourself. 
> 
Not a bad suggestion, but wouldn't that be more appropriate as a Find 
Weakness Talent?  Concentrate to *find the weaknesses* : )  Sounds like it 
to me... 
 
>2: You send pulses of mental energy that scramble his defences which is more  
>obviously suppress vs mental defence and would make the target vulnerable to  
>any incoming ego attacks etc. 
> 
But this still has the problem (in my mind) of being based on OCV/DCV to 
hit.  Of course, that was still a problem with the Power I had devised... 
 
Now, extra levels to hit is nice, but I wanted to effect the EGO, more than 
the Mental Defense.  See, if I weaken their Defenses, that'll help, but only 
on targets with those Defenses (few and far between, and usually they are 
Mentalists, with high EGOs anyway).  If it directly affects the EGO, it'll 
work against peons, too, causing them to be more easily controlled, mind 
scanned, mind read, etc. 
 
I thank you very much for the suggestions.  Perhaps I will use them for 
another character. 
 
- Jerry 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion... 
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:26:21 -0700 (PDT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
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X-UID: 96 
 
>  
> Ok, we've all seen the Flash and even Superman do it.  They blow something  
> up at close range and before the explosion has a chance to reach them they  
> are out of harm's way.  In fact, I have a player who has seen this and we  
> left the game hanging there.  He wants to blow up an energy source and  
> outrace the explosion.  In Champions terms how would this be done?  Dive for  
> Cover just doesn't cut it.  He would be at so many negatives that he would  
> never make the roll, but he is a speedster and much like the Flash should be  
> able to do it.  Sure, I could just LET him do it, but then he might start  
> trying to pull that off during battles.  How would this be done?  I was  
 
	Well, judge it by drama. 
If he's doing a great heroic deed, let him pull it off by some miracle. 
If his motivations are unheroic, have him get caught in the explosion. 
Or make it an implosion that sucks him in. 
 
	I always set things up so heroic deeds get their reward, wheras 
unheroic ones get hit with a harsh reality. This helps enforce the genre. 
 
-- 
Rook 
Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC 
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system 
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all) 
 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at 
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion... 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "S" == Sparx <psansone@i1.net> writes: 
 
S> Ok, we've all seen the Flash and even Superman do it. 
 
Dive for Cover. 
 
Nothing in the description requires "leaping" movement; *any* movement 
power may be used. 
 
And buy a bunch of skill levels to offset the penalties. 
 
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Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should 
                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 00:04:17 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: XP Awards (rather long, sorry) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Bob Greenwade (showing impressive patience with me) wrote: 
>At 12:56 PM 9/17/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>   My reasoning precisely. 
        Well, then.  We agree.  Hmm. 
 
>>        Ah.  Yes, I seem to remember something about that.  *I* was 
>>referring to the defintion of GURU (I believe) coined by S John Ross: GURU - 
>>Generic Universal Roleplaying Umpire.  Obviously, you were referring to a 
>>more generic guru. (more generic than Generic?) 
> 
>   Uh... yeah.   :-] 
> 
        Yet another dead end in the conversation...  <sigh>  Well, let's see 
what's next... 
 
>>>>        Character Sketch: 5 pts 
>>>>        Ongoing Diary (750 wds/session minimum): 20 points 
>>>>        Tape Recording (taping each session, you provide the tapes them 
>>>>give them up): 30 points 
>>>>        Character History: 1 point per 250 words. 
>>>>        Purchase and paint a miniature specifically for your PC: 5 points. 
> 
>   For the sketch, history, and miniature, I might go with the listed 
>values if done at the outset.  For the diary or recording, or for sketches 
>or miniatures done after the beginning of the campaign (or the character's 
>debut), I think I'd divide the values by 5.  20 points seems like an awful 
>lot to award someone for keeping a journal (unless the 20 points was for 
>the entire, completed journal -- but then where does the tape recording fit 
>into that?). 
> 
        S John did all of this at the outset.  I don't even know how many XP 
he gave out during the game.  The journal was an ongoing thing, always done 
in character.  And the tapes, well, I guess there's the $$$ cost, and the 
fact that you'd wind up with every little character bit (and a lot of OOC 
stuff in my games).  Easier to keep track of things for the GM.  (Oh, that 
NPC has a weird accent?  Almost forgot...  Oh, that PC insulted the King 
back then?  woo-hoo) 
        My brother did a journal for one of John's fantasy games.  He played 
a religious nut, and constantly Capitalized words in the Middle of his 
sentences, seemingly at Random...  like I said, in character.  And the 
character's perceptions of what went on, and his inner thoughts, would not 
necessarily be what *actually* happened.  This is also a good tool to see 
how the PC is thinking (not just the player) and how to draw him further 
into his story and plotlines. 
        Plus, the tapes might make interesting keepsakes.  Like you said 
about the WAV files for your site, just *think* of all the WAV files you 
might get from a particularly inspired night of gaming! 
 
>>        Well, an adventure module (written by S John) for Tales From the 
>>Floating Vagabond (an out-of-print game system from Avalon Hill) lists XP 
>>bonuses like: general award, 100 points; completion of the goals (without 
>>too much nudging), 200 points; they paid for the beer and pizza, 50 points. 
>>("Let's encourage this sort of blatant bootlicking...")  I should point out 
>>this one's a COMEDY game, though. 
> 
>   I've seen that game, but not examined it closely. 
>   I wonder... how much of this type of thing does exist in other game 
>systems, comedic or otherwise?  What, for example, do players get rewarded 
>for in Paranoia (assuming that's not Ultraviolet Security)? 
> 
        I've only played Paranoia once, and all I got rewarded with was 
Death.  Constant, unstoppable Death.  Death for being in character.  Death 
for being out of character.  Death for being loyal to the Computer.  Death 
for being disloyal to the computer.  <sigh> 
        Tales From the Floating Vagabond has an interesting XP system (well, 
bits of it).  The example I gave above was (AFAIK) only used by S John Ross 
in his module (Weirder Tales...  A Space Opera).  The other XP rules are 
pretty much standard, for good roleplaying and difficulty of the adventure. 
The levels of difficulty are slightly humorous (you get 50-100 XP for a 
"fairly easy adventure", but 300-500 XP for "An adventure that is actually a 
threat to the very fabric of reality due to its sheer toughness", and 1000 
XP for "Destroying the Universe").  The system itself is somewhat laughable; 
not because of the comedy, if you get my meaning.  It's not so much a rules 
system as a guideline.  A terribly unedited guideline. 
        Oh, one other thing about TF2V:  you also get 1 XP for each 
"Sawbuck" (that's 5 Bucks) retained at the end of the adventure.  I've taken 
this to mean that the Bartender (hey, that's what the GM is called in there, 
honest) is supposed to "arrange" for the characters to be broke most of the 
time...  It's also a good plot hook.  (Beginning of the session:  Bartender 
sez, "Here's your tab."  Patrons (that's the players) say, "uh oh" and then 
get hired to do something fairly near impossible, but also hopefully funny.) 
        Most other systems I've played (not many) give XP for either combat 
or roleplaying.  With GURPS, it's roleplaying, although some GMs... 
        With D&D, everyone's familiar with XP earned from: kill the monster, 
take its treasure.  This is all fine and well.  There are also optional XP 
awards, which differ by class.  Mages get XP based on spell levels cast. 
Thieves get XP for using their "thief abilities" (I think).  Clerics get XP 
bonuses for casting spells that further their God's cause.  And Fighters... 
get even more XP for killing things, based on the "Hit Dice" of the monster 
slain.  There's also another optional bonus, this one for good roleplaying. 
        One late night session, I earned the highest XP bonus for 
roleplaying possible, after a taunting speech made down the stairs of a 
dungeon to a Priest of Bane who was hanging around with a Green Dragon (I 
was a 1st level Priest of Lathander, the other PCs were also 1st level). 
The highest possible total:  50 XP!!!  For those of you who've played D&D, 
you know how much that is... 
 
>   I think this should max out at about 3-4 pics, depending on how many 
>aspects the character can have.  Taking Ms. Steele from my own campaign as 
>an example, she'd probably do well with a facial portrait, a full-length 
>illo in a suit for when she goes to court, and another full-length in what 
>she wears in action (I might accept a bikini picture to increase website 
>traffic). 
> 
Okay, I'm back on topic (was I off?).  I have been very generous with XP for 
drawings, mostly because I *love* this one guy's stuff.  I'd prefer to start 
getting background from the players, but they don't seem to be writers... 
Also, I developed this "XP for extras" rule on-the-fly, while I was running 
campaigns...  I really didn't envision it blooming like it has. 
 
- Jerry 
 
From: "Tivaak" <Tivaak@usa.net> 
Subject: Justice, Inc. ? 
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:20:42 -0500 
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Hi all, 
 
i saw this game, aparently related to the Hero games line on a web page for 
sale. so i'm wondering -- is it related to Champions? does it use the Hero 
system? what is it about and is it worth getting? thanks for any 
information.  
 
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion 
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:40:50 -0400 (EDT) 
Organization: VTSFFC 
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There is an Optional Rule that is in the same ballpark: Champions Deluxe, 
page 156, under Optional Combat Maneuvers, there is  
"Rolling with a Punch".  You lower your CV to do it and take only half damage 
from the attack.  You could just use this as Rolling with an Area Effect 
attack, or tweak the maneuver to adjust for size of blast and speed 
of movement. Speedsters probably _should_ be better at this than most 
others. 
 
                                                   Daniel Pawtowski 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion (and Speedster notes) 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "DP" == Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net> writes: 
 
DP> There is an Optional Rule that is in the same ballpark: Champions 
DP> Deluxe, page 156, under Optional Combat Maneuvers, there is "Rolling 
DP> with a Punch". 
 
"Roll with Punch" has been around for a long time. 
 
DP> You lower your CV to do it and take only half damage from the attack. 
 
But at the same time you suffer more knockback. 
 
DP> You could just use this as Rolling with an Area Effect attack, or tweak 
DP> the maneuver to adjust for size of blast and speed of movement. 
 
Enh... not when Dive for Cover already does it.  In fact, Dive for Cover 
works better because it is based on the size of the area (actually, how far 
the character must move to get out) whereas Roll with Punch is tied to the 
damage classes of the attack.  Using Roll with Punch you wind up with a 
backwards situation where a massive, one-hex area blast is harder to get 
out of than a smaller attack with a greater radius. 
 
DP> Speedsters probably _should_ be better at this than most others. 
 
Only if you insist that speedsters must have a high Dexterity, which most 
really do not.  They have tremendous levels of movement powers, and some 
"weird" powers for stupid speedster tricks (Change Environment is good for 
this), but Dexterity and Speed stats do not need to be particularly high. 
 
In fact, if you keep Dexterity and especially Speed down, you use less END 
per Turn.  That means you can get away with less base Endurance and a 
smaller Recovery.  And all that adds up to more points available for the 
neat things that a Speedster can do. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 16:41:27 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion... 
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On 17 Sep 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
> >>>>> "S" == Sparx <psansone@i1.net> writes: 
>  
> S> Ok, we've all seen the Flash and even Superman do it. 
>  
> Dive for Cover. 
>  
> Nothing in the description requires "leaping" movement; *any* movement 
> power may be used. 
>  
> And buy a bunch of skill levels to offset the penalties. 
>  
 
I think most people are in agreement that Dive for Cover can simulate 
outrunning an explosion. The problem (as I see it, anyway) is with 
explosions taking place over extremely large areas. A Dive for 5 or 10 
inches should be pretty easy for a high-DEX speedster, especially with 
those skill levels. But just try diving a couple of *miles* with a -1 per 
1"  penalty (have I got that right?)  
 
Those large explosions, I think, just call for a GM special effects call. 
I can certainly think of some effects built with an explosion advantage 
that would be genuinely instantaneous, but a typical bomb might have a 
shockwave that would spread out at a speed which a hero might outrun.  
 
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 17:28:52 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Justice, Inc. ? 
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On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Tivaak wrote: 
 
> Hi all, 
>  
> i saw this game, aparently related to the Hero games line on a web page for 
> sale. so i'm wondering -- is it related to Champions? does it use the Hero 
> system? what is it about and is it worth getting? thanks for any 
> information.  
 
Justice Inc (or JI) is a Hero System sourcebook for running games set in 
the Pulp Ficiton era (~1920-1935).  The book has been out of print for 
sometime, and uses 3rd Ed rules.  Other than that, it's a nice sourcebook 
and worth having. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 22:13:09  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Justice, Inc. ? 
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On Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:20:42 -0500, Tivaak wrote: 
 
>Hi all, 
> 
>i saw this game, aparently related to the Hero games line on a web page for 
>sale. so i'm wondering -- is it related to Champions? does it use the Hero 
>system? what is it about and is it worth getting? thanks for any 
>information.  
 
Probably my all-time favorite of the pre-4th eddition Champions derivitives.  Lot's of  
neat "pulp-era" source material.  The game system was slightly altered from core 3rd  
eddition rules (as was typical of Hero publications of the time) but anyone who knows  
the current system will have no problems with it.  All of the "wierd talents" can be  
duplicated using Hero 4 powers. 
 
Well worth having. 
 
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:43:24 -0700 
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net> 
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Justice, Inc. ? 
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Tivaak wrote: 
 
> Hi all, 
> 
> i saw this game, aparently related to the Hero games line on a web 
> page for 
> sale. so i'm wondering -- is it related to Champions? does it use the 
> Hero 
> system? what is it about and is it worth getting? thanks for any 
> information. 
 
    I have one answer to all of your questions above: YES! 
 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
Subject: New PBEM campaign 
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:50:55 +0100 
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I am going to have a go at starting my own PBEM. This is something that I 
have never done before, and the whole thing is going to be highly 
experimental! 
 
I am looking for players with time to spare, patience (I just told you... I 
haven't doen this before!), and as much expertise as possible. 
 
Attached are the campaign guidelines and a brief history of the campaign 
world.  
All questions answered, all players welcome.... 
 
(Advice from practicing PBEM GM's also appreciated!!!) 
 
TTFN from Chris! 
http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk  
 
Attachment Converted: "g:\eudora\attach\History.txt" 
 
Attachment Converted: "g:\eudora\attach\Campaign.txt" 
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:59:55 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden 
Subject: Re: Extra Defense Limitation 
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On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, Brian Wong wrote: 
 
> An Extra Defense Limitation. Under this idea a power could be stopped by 
> more than just one defense. 
> 	For instance an EB that is stopped by both ED and PD, or say ED and 
> Flash Defence. 
 
[...] 
 
> 	Question is, what would it be worth. I imagine it would vary. 
> It's a lot more limiting to have a drain stopped by both ED and Power defense 
> than it is to have a falsh stopped by flash defense and power defense. 
 
Why? If anything the opposite would be the case... with Flash you're 
adding another defense whose commonality is comparable to the original, 
whereas with EB the new defense is significantly less common than the 
original defense. 
 
Also, it's not clear whether you mean that you'd subtract Max(ED,Power 
Defense) or ED + Power Defense from the EB's damage. In the former case, I 
don't think this is worth a Limitation at all... it just isn't enough to 
merit a -1/4. 
 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <swhbfssg@pop.softnet.co.uk> 
From: "MarkBarltrop" <Mark.Barltrop@kzin.softnet.co.uk> 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 00:04:55 +0100 
Subject: Re: Hero System formula 
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On 15 Sep 97 at 23:05, Stephen B. Mann wrote: 
 
>  
>  
> Can anyone out there tell me how to convert Hero STR to weight 
> lifted? I know that a 20 STR can lift 200 kb, but how much can a 31 
> STR lift? 
(Actually 20 STR can lift 400 Kg) 
25* (2^ (STR/5)) Kg 
>      Similarly, how fast is SPD 8, 13" Running, with x4 noncombat 
> multiplier in MPH? How do I convert these numbers to real world 
> measurements? 
(SPD*Move*NCM)*0.6 KPH (or *0 .37 MPH) 
 
Mark Barltrop (tachyon@kzin.softnet.co.uk) 
'What is it?' 
'Its a wolf!' 
'In a city? What does it find to eat?' 
'Oh, why did you have to ask that?' 
(Terry Pratchett,'Feet of Clay') 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:58:03 +0000 
Subject: Re: Justice, Inc. ? 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
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On 17 Sep 97 at 13:20, Tivaak wrote: 
 
> Hi all, 
>  
> i saw this game, aparently related to the Hero games line on a web page for 
> sale. so i'm wondering -- is it related to Champions? does it use the Hero 
> system? what is it about and is it worth getting? thanks for any 
> information.  
 
In the old days where every genre had its own variation of the Hero  
System, Justice, Inc. was the rules for 1920-30s pulp fiction. It has  
a good source book and some excellent adventure ideas. With some  
tweaking and a lot of work on my part, The Coates Shambler became  
probably the best adventure I have ever run. The work came from using  
the most difficult adventure options. 
 
All in all, I'd say it was one of the best things Hero Games ever put  
out. If you are going to use 4th Edition Hero System rules, however,  
you might want to look at the Hero System Almanac I. It contained  
conversion rules to cover the odd "pulp"-style psychic powers from  
JI. Without JI, however, those rule updates are no more than mildly  
interesting, whereas without the updates JI is still one of the best  
things Hero Games ever did. 
 
Filksinger 
 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:56:09 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Justice, Inc. ? 
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At 05:28 PM 9/17/97 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Tivaak wrote: 
> 
>> Hi all, 
>>  
>> i saw this game, aparently related to the Hero games line on a web page for 
>> sale. so i'm wondering -- is it related to Champions? does it use the Hero 
>> system? what is it about and is it worth getting? thanks for any 
>> information.  
> 
>Justice Inc (or JI) is a Hero System sourcebook for running games set in 
>the Pulp Ficiton era (~1920-1935).  The book has been out of print for 
>sometime, and uses 3rd Ed rules.  Other than that, it's a nice sourcebook 
>and worth having. 
 
   Rather than give my own reply, I decided to just give an echo to what 
Michael says here.  :-) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:53:16 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: XP Awards (was Re: NND & Variable special effect) 
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At 12:56 PM 9/17/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade (still held in esteem) wrote: 
>>   I dunno.  Seems to me Shelley Chrystal Mactyre would be a good candidate 
>>for a con guest, though Guest of Honor would be unlikely. 
>        I'd agree with that.  I respect her Net-work very much, and have 
>greatly enjoyed all the work she has done.  Again, GoH would probably be a 
>*published* author... 
 
   My reasoning precisely. 
 
>>   And Aaron Allston has been referred to as a Champions Guru for so long 
>>that he appeared in the drawing on the cover of one of the Justice, Inc. 
>>books wearing a T-shirt reading, "I am not a Champions Guru."  (Also see 
>>his home page; I don't have the exact URL handy, but I'm sure someone else 
>>does.  It has a drawing that has to be seen to be believed.) 
>        Ah.  Yes, I seem to remember something about that.  *I* was 
>referring to the defintion of GURU (I believe) coined by S John Ross: GURU - 
>Generic Universal Roleplaying Umpire.  Obviously, you were referring to a 
>more generic guru. (more generic than Generic?) 
 
   Uh... yeah.   :-] 
 
>>>        Character Sketch: 5 pts 
>>>        Ongoing Diary (750 wds/session minimum): 20 points 
>>>        Tape Recording (taping each session, you provide the tapes them 
give 
>>>them up): 30 points 
>>>        Character History: 1 point per 250 words. 
>>>        Purchase and paint a miniature specifically for your PC: 5 points. 
>> 
>>   How do these points compare to Character Points in Hero? 
>> 
>        Well, the "average" heroic GURPS character is 100 pt, +40 for 
>Disadvantages, +5 for Quirks.  Some "heroic" campaigns raise this up to 
>anywhere near double.  And the "average" Supers game in GURPS runs 500, 
>+100, +5.  Personally, I'd probably just leave the points where they were, 
>but for comparability, you may want to halve the values. 
 
   For the sketch, history, and miniature, I might go with the listed 
values if done at the outset.  For the diary or recording, or for sketches 
or miniatures done after the beginning of the campaign (or the character's 
debut), I think I'd divide the values by 5.  20 points seems like an awful 
lot to award someone for keeping a journal (unless the 20 points was for 
the entire, completed journal -- but then where does the tape recording fit 
into that?). 
 
>>>he once gave a player 10 points to bring pizza every session (the guy 
worked 
>> 
>>   Hm.  I wonder if I should implement a policy of awarding +1 xp per $5 
>>slipped to the GM.  (Dang, all of a sudden I'm actually *wishing* that my 
>>players were powergamers!) 
>> 
>        Well, an adventure module (written by S John) for Tales From the 
>Floating Vagabond (an out-of-print game system from Avalon Hill) lists XP 
>bonuses like: general award, 100 points; completion of the goals (without 
>too much nudging), 200 points; they paid for the beer and pizza, 50 points. 
>("Let's encourage this sort of blatant bootlicking...")  I should point out 
>this one's a COMEDY game, though. 
 
   I've seen that game, but not examined it closely. 
   I wonder... how much of this type of thing does exist in other game 
systems, comedic or otherwise?  What, for example, do players get rewarded 
for in Paranoia (assuming that's not Ultraviolet Security)? 
 
>>   I may go and discuss this with my players. 
>        *GOOD* idea.  This is something that could be abused, or at least 
>taken advantage of.  Personally, I don't *need* two dozen character 
>sketches.  After a while, they all kind of blend together, anyway.  (Two of 
>my players are notorious for drawing.  One does it just 'cause he loves it, 
>and the XP are BONUS.  The other does it for the points.  I've been forced 
>to cut back due to the large influx of paper from these guys.) 
 
   I think this should max out at about 3-4 pics, depending on how many 
aspects the character can have.  Taking Ms. Steele from my own campaign as 
an example, she'd probably do well with a facial portrait, a full-length 
illo in a suit for when she goes to court, and another full-length in what 
she wears in action (I might accept a bikini picture to increase website 
traffic). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 20:01:23 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion... 
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At 04:41 PM 9/17/97 -0400, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>I think most people are in agreement that Dive for Cover can simulate 
>outrunning an explosion. The problem (as I see it, anyway) is with 
>explosions taking place over extremely large areas. A Dive for 5 or 10 
>inches should be pretty easy for a high-DEX speedster, especially with 
>those skill levels. But just try diving a couple of *miles* with a -1 per 
>1"  penalty (have I got that right?)  
 
   Yowtch.  Was that the original question??? 
 
>Those large explosions, I think, just call for a GM special effects call. 
>I can certainly think of some effects built with an explosion advantage 
>that would be genuinely instantaneous, but a typical bomb might have a 
>shockwave that would spread out at a speed which a hero might outrun.  
 
   Hm.  I might go with a GM Special Effects call, or perhaps an Advantage 
could be given to movement that Dive For Cover takes normal Range 
Modifiers. (Say, a +1/4 Modifier for that?  Is that too low?  Or should 
some other, similar factors be added to such an Advantage?) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:09:47 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Hero System formula 
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Mark Baltrop (tachyon@kzin.softnet.co.uk) wrote: 
>On 15 Sep 97 at 23:05, Stephen B. Mann wrote: 
>> Can anyone out there tell me how to convert Hero STR to weight 
>> lifted? I know that a 20 STR can lift 200 kb, but how much can a 31 
>> STR lift? 
>(Actually 20 STR can lift 400 Kg) 
>25* (2^ (STR/5)) Kg 
>>      Similarly, how fast is SPD 8, 13" Running, with x4 noncombat 
>> multiplier in MPH? How do I convert these numbers to real world 
>> measurements? 
>(SPD*Move*NCM)*0.6 KPH (or *0 .37 MPH) 
> 
        Okay, so you actually figured out the equation for STR.  Which makes 
it look more elegant than mine.  : P 
        But how do *you* feel about the fact that the formula value and book 
value of, say, 33 STR differ?  Why doesn't Hero use a straight exponential? 
Too much math?  That's like closing the barn door after the horse is already 
gone. 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:15:45 -0700 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
Subject: Re: XP Awards (was Re: NND & Variable special effect) 
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Bob Greenwade wrote: 
<Other stuff deleted for security reasons> 
>  
>    I've seen that game, but not examined it closely. 
>    I wonder... how much of this type of thing does exist in other game 
> systems, comedic or otherwise?  What, for example, do players get 
> rewarded for in Paranoia (assuming that's not Ultraviolet Security)? 
 
Reward? Yea, right. I suppose you can give them the hope that they are 
favored... 
 
-Mark 
 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 00:23:36 -0400 
Subject: Re: NNDs- Are they broken? 
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From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger) 
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Filksinger sez, "An NND could easily have Power Defense as the defense." 
 
I say, in many campaigns, Power Defense is not reasonably common. 
 
 Aloha,  WillGGeiger@juno.com 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:24:44 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Extra Defense Limitation 
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Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, Brian Wong wrote: 
>> An Extra Defense Limitation. Under this idea a power could be stopped by 
>> more than just one defense. 
>> 	For instance an EB that is stopped by both ED and PD, or say ED and 
>> Flash Defence. 
> 
>[...] 
> 
>> 	Question is, what would it be worth. I imagine it would vary. 
>> It's a lot more limiting to have a drain stopped by both ED and Power defense 
>> than it is to have a falsh stopped by flash defense and power defense. 
> 
>Why? If anything the opposite would be the case... with Flash you're 
>adding another defense whose commonality is comparable to the original, 
>whereas with EB the new defense is significantly less common than the 
>original defense. 
> 
Well, in the last paragraph, he said "Drain," not "EB."  (I know he said EB 
at the beginning...)  A Flash v. Flash Def + Power Def would be very 
slightly limited (in my games), but a Drain that was defended by "both ED 
and Power defense" would be *severely* limited.  Most Drains I have done are 
less dice than an EB. 
        In an "average" campaign, ED 20 and EB 10d6 are not uncommon.  That 
means an average of 15 STUN.  For a 10d6 Drain (with this Limitation, works 
v. ED) that would also mean an average of 15 CP.  For a 5d6 Drain (a more 
common, I think), that means a *max* of 10 CP.  That's pretty limiting. 
 
>Also, it's not clear whether you mean that you'd subtract Max(ED,Power 
>Defense) or ED + Power Defense from the EB's damage. In the former case, I 
>don't think this is worth a Limitation at all... it just isn't enough to 
>merit a -1/4. 
> 
        Yes, possibly the least Limiting of these examples would be an EB 
that worked against ED+Power Def.  Most characters don't have it...  I 
probably wouldn't give a Limitation (maybe -1/4, because *not* giving one 
means they won't take that SFX). 
 
        Now, along these lines...  Some games have instated a base Mental 
Defense.  Like PD is based on STR, and ED on CON, these games have MD based 
on EGO (EGO/5) and give these first few points free.  When buying additional 
Mental Defenses, there is no "bonus" and it simply costs 1/1.  Would this be 
viable to do for Power Defense as well, perhaps based off of BODY?  Flash 
Defense based off of INT or DEX?  It would be best for campaigns where these 
attacks were more common, and more powerful than "average."  (Plus, Flashes 
would become *much* more underpowered using these rules...) 
 
- Jerry 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion... 
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
BG>    Hm.  I might go with a GM Special Effects call, or perhaps an Advantage 
BG> could be given to movement that Dive For Cover takes normal Range 
BG> Modifiers. (Say, a +1/4 Modifier for that?  Is that too low?  Or should 
BG> some other, similar factors be added to such an Advantage?) 
 
Nah.  Look, a mile-wide explosion is a plot device.  Getting *out* of a 
mile-wide explosion is a plot device.  I mean, seriously, you want to make 
characters pay for an ability they are going to *MAYBE* use *ONCE*? 
 
Besides, a campaign that can "afford" AoEs with radii of more than 6" or so 
can easilly afford a handful of skill levels that can be applied to Dive 
for Cover rolls. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 00:56:50 -0400 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion... 
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From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger) 
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Some bombs have fuzes or timers, giving speedsters plenty of time to 
escape. 
Another idea might be to purchase Range Skill Levels with Dive for Cover. 
 
 Aloha,  WillGGeiger@juno.com 
 
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:56:55 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Reply-To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: XP Awards (was Re: NND & Variable special effect) 
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>    I've seen that game, but not examined it closely. 
>    I wonder... how much of this type of thing does exist in other game 
> systems, comedic or otherwise?  What, for example, do players get rewarded 
> for in Paranoia (assuming that's not Ultraviolet Security)? 
 
 
	There's XP in Paranoia?  I didn't think you were supposed to get 
through more than one session with a character.  {grin} 
 
 
		-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 01:03:24 -0400 
Subject: Re: Justice, Inc.  
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From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger) 
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Justice, Inc. is a great game.  Think Indiana Jones, the Shadow, and Doc 
Savage, baby.  It was really an agent level game.  The Shadow and Doc 
Savage had operatives, you know.  My 4th edition JI, "Pulp Hero," is the 
most popular local game. 
I like injecting some Cthulu horror into it, too. 
 
 Aloha,  WillGGeiger@juno.com 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:15:42 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion... 
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Mark Lemming wrote: 
>>Superman flying high above the streets of Metropolis sees bad 
>> guys with his super-vision about to shoot innocents, he swoops down 
>> from 400 meters away to bounce the bullets: This would be a -200 penalty 
>> with a standard Dive for Cover.) 
>>  
>For Superman in the example above: 
>He sees bad guys about to shoot innocents. 
>He decides not to use his heat vision to turn the bad guys to ash. 
>He finishes his half move and then dives the 1". 
> 
No, I don't think so.  I thought it was something like this.  Segment 12, 
they act and everything.  Segment 1, the bad guys had held their Action, and 
decide to use it to shoot the innocent.  Supes didn't hold his Action.  The 
only way for him to reach them is to...  Dive for Cover.  At a -200 penalty. 
You can't Abort to a Movement Power, and even if you could, that's your only 
action.  You couldn't Abort to a Move, and then a Dive for Cover. 
 
- Jerry 
 
ps - If Supes *was* right there, he wouldn't even have to "Dive" the 1".  He 
could just as easily "Dive" for 0. 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:20:00 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Extra Defense Limitation 
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John P Weatherman wrote: 
>In the PBEM I'm currently involved with, we are currently using Mental  
>Defence 
>and Power Defence as figured characteristics (EGO/5 and BODY/5  
>respectively). 
>This is obviously a VERY House thing to do, however drains are mental  
>powers 
>are both very common in the campaign and it seemed reasonable.  I don't  
>know  
>about Flashes though.  As you point out, they are already underpowered  
>and, at 
>least in this campaign, not all that common.  Also, Flashes effect  
>senses, not 
>characteristics, so it makes basing them on a characteristic a little  
>problematic. 
Well, the only reason I thought of this using INT for base Flash Defense is 
that Senses and Perception rolls are based on INT.  I suppose your argument 
could be used against your own use of BODY as the CHA for Power Defense. 
The only thing that is BODY based is BODY and STUN.  Your individual powers 
aren't BODY-based.  But, then again, I was the one to bring it up... 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:42:07 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion... 
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Miq Millman wrote: 
>> >> from 400 meters away to bounce the bullets: This would be a -200 penalty 
>> >> with a standard Dive for Cover.) 
>> >>  
>> >For Superman in the example above: 
>> >He sees bad guys about to shoot innocents. 
>> >He decides not to use his heat vision to turn the bad guys to ash. 
>> >He finishes his half move and then dives the 1". 
>> > 
>> No, I don't think so.  I thought it was something like this.  Segment 12, 
>> they act and everything.  Segment 1, the bad guys had held their Action, and 
>> You can't Abort to a Movement Power, and even if you could, that's your only 
>> action.  You couldn't Abort to a Move, and then a Dive for Cover. 
> 
>You missed the point.  You don't have to abort if you have an action. 
>Superman moves on all segments....... 
> 
Okay, wiseguy, howsabout this:  Supes does his Action, he's flying around 
the city.  SPD 12, and whatever high DEX you *want* him to have.  Doesn't 
matter.  *SAME PHASE*, the bad guys, with a lower DEX, say they are shooting 
the innocent.  Supes already did his Action, and can't Abort.  Okay?  A SPD 
12, pretty much blows you out of the Aborting rules altogether.  You'd have 
to be lowering your DEX for purposes of acting *all the time*. 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:50:13 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion... 
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Miq Millman wrote: 
>You missed the point.  You don't have to abort if you have an action. 
>Superman moves on all segments....... 
> 
Ah.  I just looked it up.  *Your* version of Supes has SPD 14, which (AFAIK) 
isn't even officially legal under 4th Ed Rules (if I'm wrong, please correct 
me *gently* : )  However, Eric Langendorff gave him a SPD 10, as did Sam 
Bell.  Now, I don't want to get into an analysis of his power levels 
(especially since he no longer exists in that form : ) but I think I (and 
you) are losing sight that this was just an example. 
 
Although I assume you are using the older rules, so that Supes gets one 
Action every Segment, with an extra Action on Segments 6 and 12, I still 
have problems seeing him execute the bouncing bullets trick just using the 
straight rules. 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:19:11 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Superman silliness...was out running... 
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Miq Millman wrote: 
>And who said Superman only has a speed 12?  I'd give him at the very least 
>this: 
> 
Well, actually, I assumed this: 1 Action/Segment = 12 SPD.  Didn't say I 
agreed with it (in fact, I think it's too high).  And, as I mentioned, two 
other write ups said SPD 10.  : P  nyah! 
 
>53   +12 speed, only ususable once a turn, +1 1/2 
> 
Perhaps you meant -1 1/4?  A -1 1/2 Limitation would give a cost of 48. 
 
>This allows him to move again at half his Super-high Dex on any segment. 
>Effectively he now has a 24 speed one phase eash turn, and a 12 speed for 
>the other 11 phases (or a 8 speed for the other 7 phases or what ever speed 
>he has) 
> 
Didn't see this in the book...  Like I said in another post, 4th Ed doesn't 
allow for this (right?).  Even the acting "again at half his Super-high Dex" 
isn't specified.  Actually, I couldn't even find the "higher than 12 SPD" 
rule in the old Champs books, even though I remember it.  Do you recall 
where it is?  Are you using it straight out of the book, or did you modify it? 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:25:23 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion... 
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Mark Lemming wrote: 
>Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
> 
><Wise guy stuff deleted> 
> 
>> Okay, wiseguy, howsabout this:  Supes does his Action, he's flying 
>> around 
>> the city.  SPD 12, and whatever high DEX you *want* him to have. 
>> Doesn't 
>> matter.  *SAME PHASE*, the bad guys, with a lower DEX, say they are 
>> shooting 
>> the innocent.  Supes already did his Action, and can't Abort.  Okay? 
>> A SPD 
>> 12, pretty much blows you out of the Aborting rules altogether.  You'd 
>> have 
>> to be lowering your DEX for purposes of acting *all the time*. 
> 
>See your problem is that you're always thinking in combat time.  If the 
>GM wants the bad guys to shoot the innocent, then the innocent gets 
>shot.  Just use the combat phases when you have to. Not for examples 
>like this. That pretty much sums up my views, so I'm out of this 
>argument. 
> 
No, my problem was assuming that, since we were talking of game mechanics, I 
could continue and expand using game mechanics.  If the GM says, "Hey, 
Clark, you see the Bad Guys (tm) about to shoot the Threatened Innocent 
(tm).  But you're 400m away.  What do you do?"  And then, when Clark says, 
"I Instant Change and do this and this and this..."  And the GM says, "Make 
this and this and this roll..."  I guess I assumed that combat had started. 
        Hmm...  Guys firing guns at people, people rolling to hit and for 
damage...  sounds like combat to me. 
        But, I'm curious.  If you're just going to use the characters 
Powers, Characteristics, et al. as a guideline, except when you specifically 
run combats, why would the rest of the thread matter to you, anyway?  If 
it's not "combat time," why would the character need a specific way of 
outrunning an explosion, if he has a NCM on his move that would let him 
physically do it? 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:12:33 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Extra Defense Limitation 
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Brian Wong wrote: 
>Here's an idea I got this morning. 
> 
>An Extra Defense Limitation. Under this idea a power could be stopped by 
>more than just one defense. 
>	For instance an EB that is stopped by both ED and PD, or say ED and 
>Flash Defence. 
>	Or a drain that can be stopped by Mental Defense and Power Defense. 
> 
>	A falsh stopped by both Power Defense and Flash Defense. 
> 
>Etc... 
>	I can see it for certain kinds of magic effects, or even an energy 
>or mental attack which targets the eyes... 
> 
>	Question is, what would it be worth. I imagine it would vary. 
>It's a lot more limiting to have a drain stopped by both ED and Power defense 
>than it is to have a falsh stopped by flash defense and power defense. 
> 
Just found this in Champions III, under Transformation: 
        "The base Transformation Attack goes against the target's Power 
Defense, is all or nothing, and does no STUN; it costs 15 points per 1d6... 
        A meaningful Transformation Attack can be very expensive, but it can 
be made cheaper.  The character can take a +1 1/2 Limitation on the 
Transformation if it acts against the target's resistant Physical or 
resistant Energy Defense." 
        So, extrapolating from this, to replace an Adjustment Power's 
defense with Resistant ED or PD, it's -1 1/2.  Then to add this as a second 
additional defense *might* be -1 3/4. 
        Further extrapolations are at your own risk. 
 
        And, to answer my own earlier question, I would allow replacing 
Power Defense as a defense for Adjustment Powers with Mental Defense, as 
long as the SFX were right. 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:16:00 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Superman silliness...was out running... 
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Brian Wong wrote: 
>> And who said Superman only has a speed 12?  I'd give him at the very least 
>> this: 
>>  
>> 53   +12 speed, only ususable once a turn, +1 1/2 
>>  
>> This allows him to move again at half his Super-high Dex on any segment. 
>> Effectively he now has a 24 speed one phase eash turn, and a 12 speed for 
>> the other 11 phases (or a 8 speed for the other 7 phases or what ever speed 
>> he has) 
> 
>	If you're already allowing speeds aboe 12, in this case, why not just 
>buy a 13 speed? Only costs 10 more points than the 12 speed... 
>	Actions would just wrap around on the speed chart. 
> 
Well, for the additional 43 points, you get to choose *when* he takes his 
extra Action, right before he wants to take it.  With just a 13 SPD, he'd 
*have* to have 2 Actions in Segment 7, or lose the other one.  You can't 
hold an Action into a Segment where you are already supposed to have an 
Action.  Which is *every* Segment, if your SPD >= 12. 
 
- Jerry 
 
From: ErolB1@aol.com 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:25:08 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion... 
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In a message dated 97-09-17 13:50:34 EDT, ratinox@peorth.gweep.net writes: 
 
>   
>  >>>>> "S" == Sparx <psansone@i1.net> writes: 
>   
>  S> Ok, we've all seen the Flash and even Superman do it. 
>   
>  Dive for Cover. 
>   
>  Nothing in the description requires "leaping" movement; *any* movement 
>  power may be used. 
>   
>  And buy a bunch of skill levels to offset the penalties. 
>   
 
Except that this breaks down for the super-speedsters ("faster than a 
speeding bullet") who can literally outrun the shockwave of an explosion. 
These folks are going to have 3-digit movement scores.  
 
Using the standard, unmodified Dive for Cover will limit characters to 
relatively short distances: More than 10" is iffy. Modifications to the rule 
are needed to duplicate the really huge "Dive for Cover" moves sometimes seen 
in the comics (Superman flying high above the streets of Metropolis sees bad 
guys with his super-vision about to shoot innocents, he swoops down from 400 
meters away to bounce the bullets: This would be a -200 penalty with a 
standard Dive for Cover.) 
 
IMHO, Dive for Cover needs a modification to make it taper off after reaching 
a -5 penalty or so. If a character has the movement needed to pull off a 200" 
Dive for cover, then the penalty to the DEX roll should be somewhere within 
the realm of possibility: A -5 or -10 instead of -200.  
 
Erol K. Bayburt 
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:04:58 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion... 
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At 12:25 AM 9/18/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
> 
>BG>    Hm.  I might go with a GM Special Effects call, or perhaps an 
Advantage 
>BG> could be given to movement that Dive For Cover takes normal Range 
>BG> Modifiers. (Say, a +1/4 Modifier for that?  Is that too low?  Or should 
>BG> some other, similar factors be added to such an Advantage?) 
> 
>Nah.  Look, a mile-wide explosion is a plot device.  Getting *out* of a 
>mile-wide explosion is a plot device.  I mean, seriously, you want to make 
>characters pay for an ability they are going to *MAYBE* use *ONCE*? 
 
   Well, sure -- but not much, and my last question indicated that I'm 
willing to throw some additional benefits into the bargain (if someone can 
come up with some). 
 
>Besides, a campaign that can "afford" AoEs with radii of more than 6" or so 
>can easilly afford a handful of skill levels that can be applied to Dive 
>for Cover rolls. 
 
   While this is true, you're looking at a need for something like 600 
Skill Levels to make a Dive For Cover of this magnitude even reasonable. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: RE: Outrunning an Explosion... 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:57:53 -0400 
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I wonder if putting the No Range Penalty on Running or Flight should 
allow the character to dive for cover without distance penalties... 
 
i.e. The Flash has 50" of Running with No Range Penalty. When he dives 
for cover, he can dive 1" or 50", and it's still the same DEX roll. 
 
This kind of thing might work well in a speedster MP. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Justice, Inc. ? 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:43:41 -0700 (PDT) 
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> >  
> > i saw this game, aparently related to the Hero games line on a web page for 
> > sale. so i'm wondering -- is it related to Champions? does it use the Hero 
> > system? what is it about and is it worth getting? thanks for any 
> > information.  
>  
> In the old days where every genre had its own variation of the Hero  
> System, Justice, Inc. was the rules for 1920-30s pulp fiction. It has  
> a good source book and some excellent adventure ideas. With some  
> tweaking and a lot of work on my part, The Coates Shambler became  
> probably the best adventure I have ever run. The work came from using  
> the most difficult adventure options. 
> 
	Hey you know. I have to say the same thing. I don't remember it's 
name, but I ran the haunted house adventure. Too date it was my favorite 
experience as a GM. 
	That game was great. 
 	Too bad my stepfather gave my copy away when I stored it at his house 
while staying in Korea for a few years... :( 
 
> All in all, I'd say it was one of the best things Hero Games ever put  
> out. If you are going to use 4th Edition Hero System rules, however,  
> you might want to look at the Hero System Almanac I. It contained  
> conversion rules to cover the odd "pulp"-style psychic powers from  
> JI. Without JI, however, those rule updates are no more than mildly  
> interesting, whereas without the updates JI is still one of the best  
> things Hero Games ever did. 
> 
	Another very good item to have is Horror Hero. It contains several 
package deals and advice that helps. 
	I managed to buy a copy of the sourcebook to Justice Inc. from 
Steve Peterson at Dundracon last year, but I'm still missing the rules and 
Lands of Mystery... 
	Of all the things he could have tossed, he had to toss my favorite... 
 
--  
Rook 
Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC 
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system 
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all) 
 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at 
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html 
 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:03:48 -0700 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion... 
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ErolB1@aol.com wrote: 
 
> Except that this breaks down for the super-speedsters ("faster than a 
> speeding bullet") who can literally outrun the shockwave of an 
> explosion. 
> These folks are going to have 3-digit movement scores. 
>  
> Using the standard, unmodified Dive for Cover will limit characters to 
> relatively short distances: More than 10" is iffy. Modifications to 
> the rule 
> are needed to duplicate the really huge "Dive for Cover" moves 
> sometimes seen 
> in the comics (Superman flying high above the streets of Metropolis 
> sees bad 
> guys with his super-vision about to shoot innocents, he swoops down 
> from 400 
> meters away to bounce the bullets: This would be a -200 penalty with a 
> standard Dive for Cover.) 
>  
> IMHO, Dive for Cover needs a modification to make it taper off after 
> reaching 
> a -5 penalty or so. If a character has the movement needed to pull off 
> a 200" 
> Dive for cover, then the penalty to the DEX roll should be somewhere 
> within 
> the realm of possibility: A -5 or -10 instead of -200. 
 
The original message was talking about setting off an explosion and then 
getting away from it. 
That to me is just a plot device.  He sets the bomb off and has 1-3 
seconds. For a speedster should have the one or two phases in there.  No 
dive for cover needed since he's just moving. 
 
For Superman in the example above: 
He sees bad guys about to shoot innocents. 
He decides not to use his heat vision to turn the bad guys to ash. 
He finishes his half move and then dives the 1". 
 
-Mark 
 
X-Sender: champion@mailhost.cyberhighway.net 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:26:12 -0700 
From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net> 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion... 
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At 08:25 AM 9/18/97 -0400, ErolB1@aol.com wrote: 
>In a message dated 97-09-17 13:50:34 EDT, ratinox@peorth.gweep.net writes: 
> 
>>   
>>  >>>>> "S" == Sparx <psansone@i1.net> writes: 
>>   
>>  S> Ok, we've all seen the Flash and even Superman do it. 
>>   
>>  Dive for Cover. 
>>   
>>  Nothing in the description requires "leaping" movement; *any* movement 
>>  power may be used. 
>>   
>>  And buy a bunch of skill levels to offset the penalties. 
>>   
 
When I ran a super-fast speedster, his movement was bought as Teleport.  So 
with multiples, he could literally teleport miles in an instant, and if he 
could time it right (a DEX roll with proper minuses) he could intercept 
bullets, etc. 
 
It seems to me that it would be easy to out run an explosion you set off if 
you use Teleport, because *instantly* you aren't there... 
 
Jim 
 
 
From: Miq Millman <miq@teleport.com> 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion... 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:31:25 -0700 (PDT) 
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> >> from 400 meters away to bounce the bullets: This would be a -200 penalty 
> >> with a standard Dive for Cover.) 
> >>  
> >For Superman in the example above: 
> >He sees bad guys about to shoot innocents. 
> >He decides not to use his heat vision to turn the bad guys to ash. 
> >He finishes his half move and then dives the 1". 
> > 
> No, I don't think so.  I thought it was something like this.  Segment 12, 
> they act and everything.  Segment 1, the bad guys had held their Action, and 
> You can't Abort to a Movement Power, and even if you could, that's your only 
> action.  You couldn't Abort to a Move, and then a Dive for Cover. 
 
You missed the point.  You don't have to abort if you have an action. 
Superman moves on all segments....... 
 
--  
__ 
Miq Millman   miq@teleport.com   
Tualatin, OR 
 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:36:51 -0500 (CDT) 
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From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Lightning Cage... 
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Ok, new question, can you tell I've been playing with some creative and  
interesting people as of late?  I have a player who wants to create a  
Lightning Cage with his powers.  Sort of like an Entangle, but it doesn't  
actually hold the person, just does damage to them if they try to pass  
through it.  I'm sure I know how to do this, but right now, it isn't coming  
to me, so I turn to the list.  How would you design a lightning cage?  Take  
it easy and talk at you later. 
Sparx 
 
==================================================== 
Friends help you move.  Real friends help you move bodies. 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:37:10 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion.... 
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Thanks all for helping me with the outrunning an explosion question.  I  
think I'm going to handle it in the form of needing to buy Dive For Cover  
levels.  A few of you seemed to agree with it and it makes sense to me.  The  
scenario in question is not a bomb at all, but a space ships energy source  
that the "hero" was going to destroy and hope to outrace the destruction of  
the ship.  Just have to wait and see how it turns out, I guess.  Interesting  
points were brought up and perhaps there should be a bonus for Speedsters  
getting outta dodge in time.  Thanks again and talk at you later. 
Sparx 
 
==================================================== 
Friends help you move.  Real friends help you move bodies. 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:40:01 +0000 
Subject: Re: NNDs- Are they broken? 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
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On 18 Sep 97 at 0:23, William G Geiger wrote: 
 
> Filksinger sez, "An NND could easily have Power Defense as the defense." 
>  
> I say, in many campaigns, Power Defense is not reasonably common. 
 
Which makes it even worse. A defense that is not reasonably common  
partially stops a Drain, and it has to be replaced by a reasonably  
common defense that stops it totally. Clearly a step down, and an  
expensive one at that. 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:40:01 +0000 
Subject: RE: Outrunning an Explosion... 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
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On 18 Sep 97 at 10:57, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
 
>  
> I wonder if putting the No Range Penalty on Running or Flight should 
> allow the character to dive for cover without distance penalties... 
>  
> i.e. The Flash has 50" of Running with No Range Penalty. When he dives 
> for cover, he can dive 1" or 50", and it's still the same DEX roll. 
>  
> This kind of thing might work well in a speedster MP. 
>  
> Dave Mattingly 
 
You fiend. 
 
Why are all my best ideas revealed by someone else just before I tell  
people? 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <filkhero@pop.netaddress.com> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:40:01 +0000 
Subject: Re: XP Awards (rather long, sorry) 
Reply-to: filkhero@usa.net 
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On 18 Sep 97 at 0:04, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
> Bob Greenwade (showing impressive patience with me) wrote: 
 
> >   I wonder... how much of this type of thing does exist in other game 
> >systems, comedic or otherwise?  What, for example, do players get rewarded 
> >for in Paranoia (assuming that's not Ultraviolet Security)? 
> > 
>         I've only played Paranoia once, and all I got rewarded with was 
> Death.  Constant, unstoppable Death.  Death for being in character.  Death 
> for being out of character.  Death for being loyal to the Computer.  Death 
> for being disloyal to the computer.  <sigh> 
 
A good Paranoia game shouldn't kill _too_ many people. I've had  
entire teams that mostly survived an adventure. 
 
If you have a running campaign, rewards depend a bit upon the _type_  
of award. For example, promotion under the Computer depends upon  
convincing the Computer that you are loyal to the Computer and  
promote its aims. Framing your teammates for traitorous acts and then  
turning them in is good for this. 
 
Promotion in your secret society is similar. You get promoted for  
following orders and promoting the secret society. Blackmail is also  
useful. 
 
Experience points come from adventuring, succeeding at tasks you are  
given, and inventive roleplaying. Dying in a particularly interesting  
manner is worth points. Avoiding certain death is also a good way to  
get points. For example, in one game some players allowed a scrubbot  
to clean the brain of the world's most powerful warbot, thus ruining  
it. One of them called in a favor, and got a friend sent over with  
orders to inspect the warbot. When the friend opened the braincase,  
they shot him and blamed him. The forged inspection order he carried  
was enough to save them. Got them bonus points, too 
 
Paranoia games that only promote the death of the players are not  
much fun, except possibly for some GMs. Occasional gratuitous and  
possibly amusing death is fine, especially since it is even fun for  
the players, if not overdone, but surviving ridiculous, nearly deadly  
circumstances can be fun for everyone. 
 
I have met many people who, after playing Paranoia, said that it was  
only fun for the GM. I have successfully convinced some of them that  
_when properly run_ it is fun for the players as well. Sometimes  
while killing everyone, but usually not, and usually not more than   
once or twice.:) 
 
Filksinger 
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever, wrong!" 
 
From: Miq Millman <miq@teleport.com> 
Subject: Superman silliness...was out running... 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:52:49 -0700 (PDT) 
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Jeremiah Driscoll says: 
> Okay, wiseguy, howsabout this:  Supes does his Action, he's flying around 
> the city.  SPD 12, and whatever high DEX you *want* him to have.  Doesn't 
> matter.  *SAME PHASE*, the bad guys, with a lower DEX, say they are shooting 
> the innocent.  Supes already did his Action, and can't Abort.  Okay?  A SPD 
> 12, pretty much blows you out of the Aborting rules altogether.  You'd have 
> to be lowering your DEX for purposes of acting *all the time*. 
 
And who said Superman only has a speed 12?  I'd give him at the very least 
this: 
 
53   +12 speed, only ususable once a turn, +1 1/2 
 
 
This allows him to move again at half his Super-high Dex on any segment. 
Effectively he now has a 24 speed one phase eash turn, and a 12 speed for 
the other 11 phases (or a 8 speed for the other 7 phases or what ever speed 
he has) 
 
:^) 
 
 
 
--  
__ 
Miq Millman   miq@teleport.com   
Tualatin, OR 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 00:18:23 +0600 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: XP Awards (was Re: NND & Variable special effect) 
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Bob Greenwade sed: 
>   I wonder... how much of this type of thing does exist in other game 
>systems, comedic or otherwise?  What, for example, do players get rewarded 
>for in Paranoia (assuming that's not Ultraviolet Security)? 
> 
        Well, the only other RPG of note that I have played (besides the 
ones I've mentioned elsewhere on the thread) was the White Wolf system. 
And, personally, I'm a little more conversant than my time playing would show... 
        There's the policy in that game that the Players "compete" for a 
single XP award for good roleplaying.  I'm not sure I like this, as I would 
prefer a game where there is more cooperation than competition (although 
that has its place, as well).  But the rest of the XP system seemed pretty 
standard... 
        I have thought of a few other ideas for tossing out XP...  I (just 
now) considered an adventure that would have situations tailored to the 
individual characters.  Some of these would be simple to get out of (make a 
Skill roll), but could be looked at with *much* more depth.  The idea would 
be to "tie" XP awards to the individual situations...  if the character just 
kinda glossed over it, he wouldn't be able to earn the XP ("yeah, I'll make 
my Electronics roll.  Let's get to the combat..."). 
        Another way of giving out XP that I've only heard of (ie- not seen 
in practice) was the "Let the Players Decide/Vote."  The Players would get 
some say in who got more XP, usually by a vote.  I could theorize on this, 
but I'd prefer to let someone who has first-hand knowledge continue with it... 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:18:30 -0700 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion... 
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Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
<Wise guy stuff deleted> 
 
> Okay, wiseguy, howsabout this:  Supes does his Action, he's flying 
> around 
> the city.  SPD 12, and whatever high DEX you *want* him to have. 
> Doesn't 
> matter.  *SAME PHASE*, the bad guys, with a lower DEX, say they are 
> shooting 
> the innocent.  Supes already did his Action, and can't Abort.  Okay? 
> A SPD 
> 12, pretty much blows you out of the Aborting rules altogether.  You'd 
> have 
> to be lowering your DEX for purposes of acting *all the time*. 
 
See your problem is that you're always thinking in combat time.  If the 
GM wants the bad guys to shoot the innocent, then the innocent gets 
shot.  Just use the combat phases when you have to. Not for examples 
like this. That pretty much sums up my views, so I'm out of this 
argument. 
 
-Mark 
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:33:54 -0700 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: Lightning Cage... 
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At 12:36 PM 9/18/97 -0500, Sparx wrote: 
>Ok, new question, can you tell I've been playing with some creative and  
>interesting people as of late?  I have a player who wants to create a  
>Lightning Cage with his powers.  Sort of like an Entangle, but it doesn't  
>actually hold the person, just does damage to them if they try to pass  
>through it.  I'm sure I know how to do this, but right now, it isn't coming  
>to me, so I turn to the list.  How would you design a lightning cage?  Take  
>it easy and talk at you later. 
>Sparx 
 
Area Effect, Hole In Middle? 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Lightning Cage... 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:44:27 -0700 (PDT) 
Cc: hero-l@omg.org 
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>  
> Ok, new question, can you tell I've been playing with some creative and  
> interesting people as of late?  I have a player who wants to create a  
> Lightning Cage with his powers.  Sort of like an Entangle, but it doesn't  
> actually hold the person, just does damage to them if they try to pass  
> through it.  I'm sure I know how to do this, but right now, it isn't coming  
> to me, so I turn to the list.  How would you design a lightning cage?  Take  
> it easy and talk at you later. 
 
	Some combination of Area Effect and Continuous. 
	Just figure which version of Area Effect best fits the effect and 
shape desired. 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Superman silliness...was out running... 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:49:44 -0700 (PDT) 
Cc: hero-l@omg.org 
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>  
> And who said Superman only has a speed 12?  I'd give him at the very least 
> this: 
>  
> 53   +12 speed, only ususable once a turn, +1 1/2 
>  
>  
> This allows him to move again at half his Super-high Dex on any segment. 
> Effectively he now has a 24 speed one phase eash turn, and a 12 speed for 
> the other 11 phases (or a 8 speed for the other 7 phases or what ever speed 
> he has) 
 
	If you're already allowing speeds aboe 12, in this case, why not just 
buy a 13 speed? Only costs 10 more points than the 12 speed... 
	Actions would just wrap around on the speed chart. 
 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:41:25 -0400 
From: seleena@fred.net (E. David Miller) 
Subject: Re: Lightning Cage... 
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>Ok, new question, can you tell I've been playing with some creative and 
>interesting people as of late?  I have a player who wants to create a 
>Lightning Cage with his powers.  Sort of like an Entangle, but it doesn't 
>actually hold the person, just does damage to them if they try to pass 
>through it.  I'm sure I know how to do this, but right now, it isn't coming 
>to me, so I turn to the list.  How would you design a lightning cage?  Take 
>it easy and talk at you later. 
>Sparx 
 
        EB (or RKA), Hex AOE, Continuous, Only around the edges (-?) 
 
        I would probably make that one a -1; if the player used it often on 
moving people so as to nail them because they can't get stopped in time, 
then reduce it to a -1/2.  You will probably want to include some level of 
either force wall or entangle, linked, so as to represent that just because 
you take the damage does not mean you get out. 
 
Or, build the force wall or the entangle as the larger power, and then link 
the EB/RKA to it, -1/4 limitation of only goes off on breakout attempts.  ? 
 
Other ideas? 
David Miller 
 
___________________________________________________________________________ 
| seleena@bigdog.-> |There are 3 temporal dimensions, just as there are 3 | 
| ->fred.net        |spatial; T, the passage of time; Tau, the changes in | 
|-------------------|possible outcomes/decisions; Teh, the alternate bases| 
| E. David Miller   |of reality.  Thus, all that ever has been dreamed,   | 
|-------------------|IS, somewhen.  And somewhen, we are all simply a     | 
|Faith, and Dreams. |dream.  Or, by perspective, a nightmare.             | 
|___________________|_____________________________________________________| 
 
 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> 
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:49:25 +0000 
Subject: Re: NNDs- Are they broken? 
Reply-to: ghoyle1@airmail.net 
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> On 18 Sep 97 at 0:23, William G Geiger wrote: 
>  
> > Filksinger sez, "An NND could easily have Power Defense as the defense." 
> >  
> > I say, in many campaigns, Power Defense is not reasonably common. 
>  
> Which makes it even worse. A defense that is not reasonably common  
> partially stops a Drain, and it has to be replaced by a reasonably  
> common defense that stops it totally. Clearly a step down, and an  
> expensive one at that. 
 
Why is Power Defense considered an uncommon defense? I can think of  
many justifications for at least a few points of it in most  
campaigns.  Devout Christians should be able to call upon Jesus, God,  
or the saints for protection against evil curses and possession,  
especially by wearing a saint's medallion.  Those who believe in the  
occult should be able to obtain charms against evil influences.  No  
doubt practitioners of other religions oughtta be able to come up  
with something similar.  Of course, this would probably only work  
against Drains with magic attacks, but this should provide a  
justification for Power Defense in most settings. 
 
Guy 
 
---------------------------------- 
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com) 
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/ 
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf 
and the PANGAEA Project! 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> 
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:55:28 +0000 
Subject: Re: XP Awards (rather long, sorry) 
Reply-to: ghoyle1@airmail.net 
Priority: normal 
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> On 18 Sep 97 at 0:04, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>  
> > Bob Greenwade (showing impressive patience with me) wrote: 
>  
> > >   I wonder... how much of this type of thing does exist in other game 
> > >systems, comedic or otherwise?  What, for example, do players get rewarded 
> > >for in Paranoia (assuming that's not Ultraviolet Security)? 
> > > 
> >         I've only played Paranoia once, and all I got rewarded with was 
> > Death.  Constant, unstoppable Death.  Death for being in character.  Death 
> > for being out of character.  Death for being loyal to the Computer.  Death 
> > for being disloyal to the computer.  <sigh> 
>  
> A good Paranoia game shouldn't kill _too_ many people. I've had  
> entire teams that mostly survived an adventure. 
>  
> If you have a running campaign, rewards depend a bit upon the _type_  
> of award. For example, promotion under the Computer depends upon  
> convincing the Computer that you are loyal to the Computer and  
> promote its aims. Framing your teammates for traitorous acts and then  
> turning them in is good for this. 
>  
> Promotion in your secret society is similar. You get promoted for  
> following orders and promoting the secret society. Blackmail is also  
> useful. 
>  
> Experience points come from adventuring, succeeding at tasks you are  
> given, and inventive roleplaying. Dying in a particularly interesting  
> manner is worth points. Avoiding certain death is also a good way to  
> get points. For example, in one game some players allowed a scrubbot  
> to clean the brain of the world's most powerful warbot, thus ruining  
> it. One of them called in a favor, and got a friend sent over with  
> orders to inspect the warbot. When the friend opened the braincase,  
> they shot him and blamed him. The forged inspection order he carried  
> was enough to save them. Got them bonus points, too 
>  
> Paranoia games that only promote the death of the players are not  
> much fun, except possibly for some GMs. Occasional gratuitous and  
> possibly amusing death is fine, especially since it is even fun for  
> the players, if not overdone, but surviving ridiculous, nearly deadly  
> circumstances can be fun for everyone. 
>  
> I have met many people who, after playing Paranoia, said that it was  
> only fun for the GM. I have successfully convinced some of them that  
> _when properly run_ it is fun for the players as well. Sometimes  
> while killing everyone, but usually not, and usually not more than   
> once or twice.:) 
 
Well, I haven't played very much Paranoia myself, but I'm very much  
taken by the whole idea.  Some of my friends were not, however; I'm  
convinced that the secret of enjoying Paranoia is understanding that  
there'll be a virtually unstoppable stream of death at the whim of  
the Computer.  The GM's task is to make it FUN for the player to die,  
rather like in a Roadrunner cartoon.  Death isn't really permanent in  
Paranoia because of the clones.  After all, the Computer may be  
insane, but it's still your friend! 
 
Guy 
---------------------------------- 
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com) 
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/ 
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf 
and the PANGAEA Project! 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:11:45 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Justice, Inc. ? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 08:43 AM 9/18/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote: 
>> In the old days where every genre had its own variation of the Hero  
>> System, Justice, Inc. was the rules for 1920-30s pulp fiction. It has  
>> a good source book and some excellent adventure ideas. With some  
>> tweaking and a lot of work on my part, The Coates Shambler became  
>> probably the best adventure I have ever run. The work came from using  
>> the most difficult adventure options. 
>> 
> Hey you know. I have to say the same thing. I don't remember it's 
>name, but I ran the haunted house adventure. Too date it was my favorite 
>experience as a GM. 
> That game was great. 
 
   It seems like a lot of us have positive memories of a Justice, Inc. game. 
   One of the best adventures I ever played in was a Justice, Inc. 
limited-run adventure (a four-parter) where a group of intrepid adventurers 
investigated werewolf happenings around an old mansion.  I'll never forget 
the fight on the burning railway car with a runaway engine after the 
engineer turned into a werewolf.  Nor his being trapped in a room with a 
crushing ceiling and a mad bomber who suddenly became reluctant to use his 
dynamite to get out of that trouble because he'd be too close to the blast. 
 Nor his falling into a spike-laden pit and injuring his left leg -- for 
the third time that adventure.  Nor everybody narrowly winning a fight 
against robotized suits of plate armor. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:14:00 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Outrunning an Explosion... 
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At 10:57 AM 9/18/97 -0400, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
> 
>I wonder if putting the No Range Penalty on Running or Flight should 
>allow the character to dive for cover without distance penalties... 
> 
>i.e. The Flash has 50" of Running with No Range Penalty. When he dives 
>for cover, he can dive 1" or 50", and it's still the same DEX roll. 
> 
>This kind of thing might work well in a speedster MP. 
 
   Sounds OK for a Speedster Multipower (like that used by Fast Forward). 
Outside a Multipower, though, it's still a bit expensive for the expected 
benefit -- unless we can figure out some additional benefit to having NRP 
on Running. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:16:37 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 10:26 AM 9/18/97 -0700, Jim Dickinson wrote: 
> 
>When I ran a super-fast speedster, his movement was bought as Teleport.  So 
>with multiples, he could literally teleport miles in an instant, and if he 
>could time it right (a DEX roll with proper minuses) he could intercept 
>bullets, etc. 
> 
>It seems to me that it would be easy to out run an explosion you set off if 
>you use Teleport, because *instantly* you aren't there... 
 
   Hm, you're thinking of Teleport with a Must Cross Intervening Space (or 
similar) Limitation?  That might very well work. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:20:42 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion.... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 12:37 PM 9/18/97 -0500, Sparx wrote: 
>Thanks all for helping me with the outrunning an explosion question.  I  
>think I'm going to handle it in the form of needing to buy Dive For Cover  
>levels.  A few of you seemed to agree with it and it makes sense to me.  The  
>scenario in question is not a bomb at all, but a space ships energy source  
>that the "hero" was going to destroy and hope to outrace the destruction of  
>the ship.  Just have to wait and see how it turns out, I guess.  Interesting  
>points were brought up and perhaps there should be a bonus for Speedsters  
>getting outta dodge in time.  Thanks again and talk at you later. 
 
   Oh, that kind of thing?  I typically just tell the characters "You have 
X seconds (or whatever) to avert disaster." 
   In fact, I once ran a scenario where the characters had one Turn, cut 
specifically into twelve seconds (literally until the stroke of 12 -- noon, 
to be specific) to avert the destruction of the world.  And sure enough, 
the one who actually did it was the last one to move on Segment 12. 
   (You just can't plan 'em like that.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:25:29 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: The Dreaded SPD > 12 Thread Again (was Superman/Outrunning) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 03:16 PM 9/18/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>Well, for the additional 43 points, you get to choose *when* he takes his 
>extra Action, right before he wants to take it.  With just a 13 SPD, he'd 
>*have* to have 2 Actions in Segment 7, or lose the other one.  You can't 
>hold an Action into a Segment where you are already supposed to have an 
>Action.  Which is *every* Segment, if your SPD >= 12. 
 
   I guess this has already started, so I might as well.... 
   If SPD > 12 (assuming this is allowed IYC at all), where does the 
character's extra Phases fall in DEX order?  Typically, I'd say at half DEX. 
   For SPD > 24, IMO, the Phases come at DEX, half DEX, and one-quarter DEX 
(so the character only has to worry about three DEX positions, rather than 
four as would happen if we were to say full and half when there are two 
actions and full, two-thirds, and one-third when there are three). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Hocus Focus 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:34:44 -0400 (EDT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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I have an idea for a type of focus, but I'm having trouble building it. 
Terry the Telepath can read people's minds, but only if he has a personal 
possession of theirs (eg a favorite shirt, a strand of hair, etc).  He 
needs a seperate focus for each potential target.  Anyone have any ideas 
on how this could be implemented? 
 
-Eric  
 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:46:46 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Lightning Cage... 
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>Ok, new question, can you tell I've been playing with some creative and  
>interesting people as of late?  I have a player who wants to create a  
>Lightning Cage with his powers.  Sort of like an Entangle, but it doesn't  
>actually hold the person, just does damage to them if they try to pass  
>through it.  I'm sure I know how to do this, but right now, it isn't coming  
>to me, so I turn to the list.  How would you design a lightning cage?  Take  
>it easy and talk at you later. 
 
How about: 
 
XD6 Energy Blast (or RKA), AE: One Hex, Hole in the Middle, Continious? 
 
Just define the 'hole' as 1/2 a hex (fixed, +1/4) and away you go. Not very 
cheap, but complex powers seldom are in Champs. You could just have a 0 DEF 
0 BODY Entangle with a Linked, Triggered power attached to it if you like. 
Instant breakout if you want, but *BBBZZZTTTT!* when you do. I guess that 
would be a Triggered EB with a linked No Body No DEF Entangle (at 1D6 1 DEF 
originally, with those lims, cheap, cheap, cheap!). And not abusive at all - 
for those points, you could just buy a normal RKA/EB and fry him on the spot. 
 
Hmm..I guess it could be just a triggered EB; trigger 'if you use a movement 
power other than XDM/Teleport', and the trigger fails if the victim goes 
desolid (SFX). 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!" 
-John comments on Feng Shui 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: The Dreaded SPD > 12 Thread Again (was Superman/Outrunning) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 18 Sep 1997 18:57:22 -0400 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
BG>    I guess this has already started, so I might as well.... 
BG>    If SPD > 12 (assuming this is allowed IYC at all), where does the 
BG> character's extra Phases fall in DEX order? 
 
Let me burst this right now by making a suggestion that if you absolutely 
have to have more actions in a combat turn, make a combat turn longer. 
 
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Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:31:09 -0400 
Subject: Re: Hocus Focus 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-7,9-20 
From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger) 
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X-UID: 66 
 
Sounds like Fragile Personal Foci (-1/4), difficult to acquire (-1/4).  
You decide about Obvious or /Inobvious, Accessible or Inacessible.  Terry 
might also need to Concentrate, possibly for Extra Time.   
 
 Aloha,  WillGGeiger@juno.com 
The Computer wants you to be happy. 
If you are not happy, you will be used as reactor shielding. 
 
On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:34:44 -0400 (EDT) Eric Burns 
<burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> writes: 
>I have an idea for a type of focus, but I'm having trouble building  
>it. 
>Terry the Telepath can read people's minds, but only if he has a  
>personal 
>possession of theirs (eg a favorite shirt, a strand of hair, etc).  He 
>needs a seperate focus for each potential target.  Anyone have any  
>ideas 
>on how this could be implemented? 
> 
>-Eric  
> 
 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 00:17:08  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: CHAR:  [New Gods] "Prequel" 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Recently got an urge to do Hero write-up of the characters from Jack Kirby's Fourth  
World (probably has something to do with DC announced tpb collecting all of Kirby's  
Fourth World stuff). 
 
No attempt has been made to make these characters into balanced, playable  
characters (although they seem to match up fairly well power-level-wise with the DC  
write-ups Sam Bell has done).  All I've tried to do is (more or less) acurately represent  
the powers levels exhibited in the comics. 
 
Oh, btw, if anyone is interested I can also send you (or post to the list) Heromaker  
versions of these characters. 
 
-=>John Desmarais 
 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 00:19:33  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: CHAR:  [New Gods] Highfather Izaya 
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X-UID: 76 
 
Highfather Izaya   
 
35	STR	25 
53	DEX	129 
52	CON	84 
24	BODY	28 
48	INT	38 
33	EGO	46 
30	PRE	20 
14	COM	2 
43	PD	36 
46	ED	36 
8	SPD	17 
17	REC	0 
104	END	0 
68	STUN	0 
Characteristics Cost: 461 
 
6	Life Support (Light),immune to disease,immune to aging	 
36	36/36 Damage Resistance	 
15	Persuasion 21-	 
19	WF,Flails,Lances,Quarterstaff,Whip,Sling,Staff Sling,	 
	Flamethrowers,Grenade Launchers,Heavy Machine Guns,Rocket	 
	Launchers,Man-Guided Missiles,Common Melee,Common Missile,	 
	Small Arms,Heavy Weapons,Via his past life as a warrior,	 
	just assume that he knows.	 
3	AK: New Genesis 19-,(INT based)	 
2	AK: Apokolips 11-	 
3	Tactics 19-	 
3	Bureaucratics 15-	 
24	3 Levels,all combat	 
	HIGHFATHER'S STAFF	 
40	Clairsentience (Direct link to "The Source"),see future,see	 
	past,see other dimensions,OAF(-1)	8 
120	VPP (80),no skill roll required,OAF(-1)	 
15	100/20 End Reserve,OAF(-1)	 
0	Followers: Mother Box (see below) (0pt)	 
 
Powers Cost: 286 
Total Cost: 747 
 
Base Points: 100 
25	Psych Lim,"Near irrattional compulsion towards peace",very 
	 common,total 
15	Psych Lim,"Mysterious (due to his link with "THe Source")", 
	 very common,moderate 
607	Kirby Bonus 
 
Disadvantages Total: 647 
Experience Spent: 0 
Total Points: 747 
 
 
Highfather is the leader of the New Gods.  He is beloved by his people for is unerring  
wisdom, loving nature, and paternal spirit.  As a pacifist who no longer engages directly  
in combat, Highfather is nevertheless prudent enough to realize that sometime force is  
the only effective weapon against Darkseid. 
 
 
 
Mother Box (or a poor facsimle thereof) 
 
20	INT	10 
10	DEX	0 
2	SPD	0 
12	EGO	4 
Characteristics Cost: 14 
 
35	16- Danger Sense,any attack,immediate vicinity	 
17	+6 Detect,make into sense,Desc: Life	 
10	360 Degree Sensing,Unusual Sense Group	 
180	VPP (90),can change powers as 0 phase	 
33	VPP Manipulation 28-	 
11	100/1 End Reserve	 
 
Powers Cost: 286 
Total Cost: 300 
 
Base Points: 100 
25	Psych Lim,"Enigmatic Motivations",very common,total 
175	Kirby Bonus 
 
Disadvantages Total: 200 
Experience Spent: 0 
Total Points: 300 
 
 
 
My basis for the powers and characteristics is a combination 
of Mayfair's DC Heroes RPG, DC Comic's Who's Who in the 
DC Universe, ad my own twisted mind. 
=================================================== 
Character write-up by John Desmarais.  Copy and use as 
you will.  Comments to John.Desmarais@ibm.net 
=================================================== 
 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 00:24:11  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: CHAR: [New Gods] Orion 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Status:  
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X-UID: 78 
 
Orion 
 
110	STR	100 
43	DEX	99 
60	CON	100 
30	BODY	40 
28	INT	18 
38	EGO	56 
25	PRE	15 
6/24	COM	-2 
67	PD	45 
57	ED	45 
7	SPD	17 
34	REC	0 
120	END	0 
115	STUN	0 
Characteristics Cost: 533 
 
6	+18 COM,Not when enraged(-1/2)	 
45	45/45 Damage Resistance	 
30	3 BODY Regen	 
3	AK: Apokolips 15-,(INT based)	 
3	AK: New Genesis 15-,(INT based)	 
2	11- Contact: Misc Apokolips Scumbuckets	 
2	11- Contact: Ruling Heirarchy of New Genesis	 
10	10 Resistance	 
6	Life Support (Light),immune to disease,immune to aging	 
32	4 Levels,all combat	 
20	4 Levels: Hand-to-Hand,related group	 
12	4 Levels: ASTRO-GLIDER Weapons,tight group	 
19	WF,Flails,Lances,Quarterstaff,Whip,Sling,Staff Sling,	 
	Flamethrowers,Grenade Launchers,Heavy Machine Guns,Rocket	 
	Launchers,Man-Guided Missiles,Common Melee,Common Missile,	 
	Small Arms,Heavy Weapons	 
	GADGETS	 
15	EC (ASTRO-GLIDER) (37),OAF(-1 1/2),bulky	 
22a)	25D6 EB (Concussive Blast),vs physical defense,OAF(-1 1/2),	 
	bulky	12 
9b)	6 1/2D6 Flash,Sight Group,OAF(-1 1/2),bulky	7 
14c)	65 STR TK (Magnetism),affects all parts,OAF(-1 1/2),bulky	10 
13d)	30" Flight (Gravity),x125 Non-Combat,OAF(-1 1/2),bulky	6 
9	Life Support,"(provided by the Astro-Glider)",doesn't	 
	breathe,safe in vacuum/pressure,safe in radiation,safe in	 
	heat/cold,immune to disease,OAF(-1 1/2),bulky	 
	Mother Box	 
	Get real.  This is a god box.  Here's a sloppy,	 
	ill-conceived attempt.	 
	[No points have been spent by the character to have this -	 
	it just seemed wrong]	 
0	Followers: Mother Box (see below) (0pt)	 
 
Powers Cost: 272 
Total Cost: 805 
 
Base Points: 100 
10	Enraged,"When in combat",very common,occur 11-,recover 14- 
15	Hunted,"Minions of Darkseid",as powerful,harsh,appear 11- 
10	Watched,"Darkseid",more powerful,harsh,appear 11- 
15	Psych Lim,"Moody",very common,moderate 
15	Psych Lim,"Only happy when fighting",common,strong 
640	Kirby Bonus 
 
Disadvantages Total: 705 
Experience Spent: 0 
Total Points: 805 
 
Orion is a tortured soul who constantly strives to temper his tendency towards wanton  
brutality with his love for peace and beauty.  And though his violent temper often clouds  
his rational judgeent, he is still New Genesis's greatest champion. 
 
 
 
Mother Box (or a poor facsimile thereof) 
 
20	INT	10 
10	DEX	0 
2	SPD	0 
12	EGO	4 
Characteristics Cost: 14 
 
35	16- Danger Sense,any attack,immediate vicinity	 
17	+6 Detect,make into sense,Desc: Life	 
10	360 Degree Sensing,Unusual Sense Group	 
180	VPP (90),can change powers as 0 phase	 
33	VPP Manipulation 28-	 
11	100/1 End Reserve	 
 
Powers Cost: 286 
Total Cost: 300 
 
Base Points: 100 
25	Psych Lim,"Enigmatic Motivations",very common,total 
175	Kirby Bonus 
 
Disadvantages Total: 200 
Experience Spent: 0 
Total Points: 300 
 
 
 
My basis for the powers and characteristics is a combination 
of Mayfair's DC Heroes RPG, DC Comic's Who's Who in the 
DC Universe, ad my own twisted mind. 
=================================================== 
Character write-up by John Desmarais.  Copy and use as 
you will.  Comments to John.Desmarais@ibm.net 
=================================================== 
 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 00:27:22  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: CHAR: [New Gods] Lightray 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 80 
 
Lightray 
 
30	STR	20 
40	DEX	90 
24	CON	28 
14	BODY	8 
38	INT	28 
18	EGO	16 
18	PRE	8 
26	COM	8 
12	PD	6 
10	ED	5 
6	SPD	10 
11	REC	0 
48	END	0 
41	STUN	0 
Characteristics Cost: 227 
 
90	18D6 EB (Solar)	9 
60	6D6 Flash (Solar),Sight	6 
226	68" Flight,x16 Non-Combat,0 END(+1/2)	0 
61	-7 Images (Light),Sight Group,x4 Increased Area	6 
30	Life Support (Light),doesn't breathe,doesn't	 
	eat/sleep/excrete,safe in vacuum/pressure,safe in radiation,	 
	safe in heat/cold,immune to disease,immune to aging	 
10	x1 FTL (Light)	 
3	Acrobatics 17-	 
6	TF,Ground Vehicles,Air Vehicles,Space Vehicles	 
9	WF,Flamethrowers,Grenade Launchers,Heavy Machine Guns,Rocket	 
	Launchers,Man-Guided Missiles,Small Arms,Heavy Weapons	 
3	Scientist	 
2	SC: Chemistry 17-,(INT based)	 
2	SC: Mathematics 17-,(INT based)	 
2	SC: Physics 17-,(INT based)	 
3	AK: New Genesis 17-,(INT based)	 
3	AK: Apokolips 17-,(INT based)	 
0	Followers: Mother Box (see below) (0pt)	 
 
Powers Cost: 510 
Total Cost: 737 
 
Base Points: 100 
20	Psych Lim,"Uncommonly Heroic",very common,strong 
5	Rep,"Orion's pal",occur 8- 
612	Kirby Bonus 
 
Disadvantages Total: 637 
Experience Spent: 0 
Total Points: 737 
 
Lightray has been a staunch ally and friend to Orion in his battle against the forces of  
Apokolips.  Lightray's peaceful nature often counterbalances Orion's ferocity. 
 
 
 
Mother Box (or a poor facsimile thereof) 
 
20	INT	10 
10	DEX	0 
2	SPD	0 
12	EGO	4 
Characteristics Cost: 14 
 
35	16- Danger Sense,any attack,immediate vicinity	 
17	+6 Detect,make into sense,Desc: Life	 
10	360 Degree Sensing,Unusual Sense Group	 
180	VPP (90),can change powers as 0 phase	 
33	VPP Manipulation 28-	 
11	100/1 End Reserve	 
 
Powers Cost: 286 
Total Cost: 300 
 
Base Points: 100 
25	Psych Lim,"Enigmatic Motivations",very common,total 
175	Kirby Bonus 
 
Disadvantages Total: 200 
Experience Spent: 0 
Total Points: 300 
 
 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 00:32:59  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: CHAR: [New Gods] "postscript" 
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Well, those three (Highfather, Orion, and Lightray) are today's batch.   
 
Next up, some bad guys I think - I'm not sure who (any requests?), but Darkseid will  
definitely be in the mix, and possibly Big Barda (yeah, I know, she's not a bad guy, but  
she used to be).   
 
I won't be doing Mr. Miracle (Sam Bell already did him), but I may (if I can figure out what  
he can do) write-up Scott Free's current incarnation (per John Byrne's "Jack Kirby's  
Fourth World"). 
 
-=>John Desmarais 
 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 00:35:57  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: META:  Opinon wanted. 
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Just a quick question for the readers of this list: 
 
Is there enough of a diference in the audiences of this list and  
rec.games.frp.super-heroes to justify posting things like character write-ups to both? 
 
 
 
-=>John Desmarais 
 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:27:06 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion... 
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> Some bombs have fuzes or timers, giving speedsters plenty of time to 
> escape. 
> Another idea might be to purchase Range Skill Levels with Dive for Cover. 
> 
 
 
	However, one may even need to buy some special inches in running, 
only to increase dive for cover distance.  Maybe. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 21:37:52 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: XP Awards (rather long, sorry) 
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>         One late night session, I earned the highest XP bonus for 
> roleplaying possible, after a taunting speech made down the stairs of a 
> dungeon to a Priest of Bane who was hanging around with a Green Dragon (I 
> was a 1st level Priest of Lathander, the other PCs were also 1st level). 
> The highest possible total:  50 XP!!!  For those of you who've played D&D, 
> you know how much that is... 
 
 
	Yeah, I once knew the XP tables for that game well.  I'm better 
now, really.  You can send away those men in the clean white coats. 
 
	LAst time I ran AD&D I ended up coming at it like I did for Hero 
-- Combat was of little importance for XP.  Heck, the players got about 
1000 of the whatever number of points for 2nd level from RP bonuses.  Very 
little from combat.  Ah well, just goes to show that even a bad game 
system can be utilized with style if the GM has any skill. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 22:25:21 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: XP Awards (rather long, sorry) 
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> If you have a running campaign, rewards depend a bit upon the _type_ 
> of award. For example, promotion under the Computer depends upon 
> convincing the Computer that you are loyal to the Computer and 
> promote its aims. Framing your teammates for traitorous acts and then 
> turning them in is good for this. 
 
	Also good for those teammates putting a shot in your back, but 
who's counting? 
 
 
> get points. For example, in one game some players allowed a scrubbot 
> to clean the brain of the world's most powerful warbot, thus ruining 
> it. One of them called in a favor, and got a friend sent over with 
> orders to inspect the warbot. When the friend opened the braincase, 
> they shot him and blamed him. The forged inspection order he carried 
> was enough to save them. Got them bonus points, too 
 
	I like that. 
 
> I have met many people who, after playing Paranoia, said that it was 
> only fun for the GM. I have successfully convinced some of them that 
> _when properly run_ it is fun for the players as well. Sometimes 
> while killing everyone, but usually not, and usually not more than 
> once or twice.:) 
 
 
	Well, I've only played the game once, and that was at a GenCon 
game this year.  Everyone lost at least three clones, one player lost 
five.  At one time the entire team was dead. 
 
	It was great, however, because the GM did very little of the 
killing.  (Except maybe for some ammunition that happened to be in the 
line of fire.)  We were all quite fervrent in our attempt to toadie 
support from the computer and to not be considered traitorous.  For that, 
we killed each other as much as possible -- usually with a cry of "He's a 
traitor!" 
 
	It was only coincidence that we barely started our first of three 
missions, really. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 06:10:09 -0500 
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us> 
Subject: Re: Superman silliness...was out running... 
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At 02:19 PM 9/18/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>Didn't see this in the book...  Like I said in another post, 4th Ed doesn't 
>allow for this (right?).  Even the acting "again at half his Super-high Dex" 
>isn't specified.  Actually, I couldn't even find the "higher than 12 SPD" 
>rule in the old Champs books, even though I remember it.  Do you recall 
>where it is?  Are you using it straight out of the book, or did you modify 
it? 
 
 
  I own EVERY edition of the Champions Rules - believe me Speed OVER 12 has 
NEVER been "legal" in any of them... 
 
  In fact, in the first 3 editions, the subject was never mentioned at all, 
allowing the power trippers to believe that the speed chart could just be 
"extended" to allow for it.... 
 
  However the "official" statement from every hero games person I've ever 
talked to about it is that "Speed over 12 is ludicrous and not allowed in 
the official rules or any published supplement" - (Perrin) 
 
  Personally I agree with this... If you want to be able to attack more 
than once per segment - start buying autofire! 
Earl Kwallek - Earl@TheWarren.Mil.Wi.US 
 
A Man with a gun is a citizen; 
a man without a gun is a subject. 
 
From: PopTholian@aol.com 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:30:16 -0400 (EDT) 
Subject: NPC  
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MUSTAFAH IBRAHIM 
================= 
STR  8 
INT 18 
DEX 15 
BOD 11 
EGO 13 
PRE 12 
COM 11 
CON 12 
REC  9 
END 45 
STN 45 
 
 
POWERS & SKILLS: 
==================== 
AK:  Alexandria 
AK:  Beirut 
AK:  Hampton Roads 
AK:  Mediterranean 
AK:  Spain & Morrocco 
Aid: 3 Dice, Any SFX, Any 1 Power, +2 to max, fade per hour  (faith) 
Bump of Direction 
Climbing 
Danger Sense  15- personal only (eyes of the janni) 
Double-Jointed 
Enchanced Hearing PER +5 
KS: Astronomy 
KS: Mathematics 
KS: Navigation 
KS: Koran 
KS: Religious Literature 
KS: Archaeology 
Lang: Arabic (native) 
Lang: Dutch 
Lang: Egyptian 
Lang: English 
Lang: French 
Lang: Spanish 
Luck: 2dice       (watchful eye of god) 
PS: Accountant 
PS: Administration 
PS: Calligrpher 
PS: Merchant Marine 
Persuasion (Fast Talk) 
Ranged Levels w/Guns: +2 
Ranged Levels w/Knife:  +4 
Regeneration: 3 Body           (will to live) 
Running 13" total 
Stealth 
Streetwise 
Survival 
Swimming 9" total 
Systems Operations 
Transport Fam:  Ships & Boats 
Wpn. Fam: Guns 
Wpn. Fam: Knives 
 
 
DISADS: 
============= 
Dist.Feature: Annoying Accent 
Dist.Features: Short & Swarthy 
Dist.Features:  Offensive to Catholics, Protestants, Jews, etc. 
Physical Limit: Blurts out religious phrases often   (Ex: Allah be praised!) 
Dependence: Must say prayers to Mecca 3 times per day (1d6 stun) 
Poor 5 
Psych: Overconfident (except in total darkness) 
Psych: Mildly Afraid of the Dark (Ego roll to remember Allah is near) 
Psych: Vow to never take wine, drugs, alchohol, tobacco, etc. 
Psych: Superstitiously carries the following equip: 
 
 
EQUIPMENT: 
============= 
3 Knives 
Astrolabe 
Kuran 
Pencil & Paper 
Laptop Powerbook 
Verse-Scroll Holder 
 
 
Ibrahim lived practically as a slave on a Moroccan freighter since the 
time he was 8. He has been all over the Med and the Atlantic. When he 
was 19, his ship foundered. During the 33 day ordeal adrift at sea, 
he led the other survivors in survival rituals, was credited with praying 
down rain, caught the most fish, etc. He of course credits Allah for 
all this and his powers. (Whether his experiences and blessing are genuine 
or psychological depends on how you as GM run your supernatural world) 
In my world, he was the genuine article. 
His role in the one campaign he's been used in was a contact for dealers 
and mid-eastern scholars, street people, or cargo. His current  "job" 
is as the first mate on a large Atlantic cruise liner. He keeps the 
ships books and now he orders the deck boys around. In a pinch, he also 
fills in for the captain on the bridge. The "Jasmine Queen" calls in 
tourist ports from Beirut, Jaffa, Alexandria, Monte Carlo, Naples, Venice, 
Cadiz, Marakesh, Lisbon, Azores, Newport News, Bermuda, Kitty Hawk, 
etc.  As such he is able to carry small items to and from nearly anywhere. 
 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 05:45:25 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Superman silliness...was out running... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 06:10 AM 9/19/97 -0500, Earl Kwallek wrote: 
>At 02:19 PM 9/18/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>>Didn't see this in the book...  Like I said in another post, 4th Ed doesn't 
>>allow for this (right?).  Even the acting "again at half his Super-high Dex" 
>>isn't specified.  Actually, I couldn't even find the "higher than 12 SPD" 
>>rule in the old Champs books, even though I remember it.  Do you recall 
>>where it is?  Are you using it straight out of the book, or did you modify 
>it? 
> 
>  I own EVERY edition of the Champions Rules - believe me Speed OVER 12 has 
>NEVER been "legal" in any of them... 
> 
>  In fact, in the first 3 editions, the subject was never mentioned at all, 
>allowing the power trippers to believe that the speed chart could just be 
>"extended" to allow for it.... 
> 
>  However the "official" statement from every hero games person I've ever 
>talked to about it is that "Speed over 12 is ludicrous and not allowed in 
>the official rules or any published supplement" - (Perrin) 
 
   This is the first thing I've heard on the topic from any of the Hero 
guys (though Steve Perrin at best only marginally counts as this IMO). 
I've always assumed that, since an absolute max of 12 SPD was never 
mentioned in any edition, that it was technically legal, but just "beyond 
specs" (the rules just weren't designed to handle it, since it was never 
expected to actually happen in any sane campaign, so if you wanted it you 
were on your own). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 05:50:17 -0700 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: META:  Opinon wanted. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 12:35 AM 9/19/97, you wrote: 
>Just a quick question for the readers of this list: 
> 
>Is there enough of a diference in the audiences of this list and  
>rec.games.frp.super-heroes to justify posting things like character 
write-ups to both? 
 
   Probably.  I'm one person who's on the list and not on the newsgroup; 
and I understand that a few of the folks on the newsgroup tend to look down 
their noses at the folks on the list, so they're not here. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> 
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:00:22 +0000 
Subject: Reasonable justification of Power Defense (was Re: NNDs- Are the 
Reply-to: ghoyle1@airmail.net 
Priority: normal 
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> Reasonable justification is not the same as reasonably common. 
> No doubt, in some campaigns Power Defense is reasonably common. 
 
I guess that my point was lost.  I was trying to make the point that  
most GMs were failing to see a perfectly valid justification for  
Power Defense within their campaigns.  There's no reason that Power  
Defense should be less common or less available in most campaigns  
than Forcefields or Armor, all things being equal.  In superhero  
campaigns there should be few problems in obtaining it; I wouldn't  
even hesitate to include it in my Justice, Inc. campaign (though I  
wouldn't make it ubiquitous, just difficult to obtain). 
 
Guy 
---------------------------------- 
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com) 
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/ 
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf 
and the PANGAEA Project! 
 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:51:18 -0400 
Subject: Re: NNDs- Are they broken? 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-5 
From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger) 
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Reasonable justification is not the same as reasonably common. 
No doubt, in some campaigns Power Defense is reasonably common. 
 
 Aloha,  WillGGeiger@juno.com 
The Computer wants you to be happy. 
If you are not happy, you will be used as reactor shielding. 
 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:52:17 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: [New Gods]  
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On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, John Desmarais wrote: 
... 
>  
> Mother Box (or a poor facsimile thereof) 
>  
> 20	INT	10 
> 10	DEX	0 
> 2	SPD	0 
> 12	EGO	4 
> Characteristics Cost: 14 
>  
> 35	16- Danger Sense,any attack,immediate vicinity	 
> 17	+6 Detect,make into sense,Desc: Life	 
> 10	360 Degree Sensing,Unusual Sense Group	 
> 180	VPP (90),can change powers as 0 phase	 
> 33	VPP Manipulation 28-	 
> 11	100/1 End Reserve	 
>  
> Powers Cost: 286 
> Total Cost: 300 
>  
> Base Points: 100 
> 25	Psych Lim,"Enigmatic Motivations",very common,total 
> 175	Kirby Bonus 
>  
> Disadvantages Total: 200 
> Experience Spent: 0 
> Total Points: 300 
>  
>  
 
Very brave of you to write up the ultimate plot device - but of course, 
that's what VPP's are for.  
 
Overall, I really like your write-ups. I might add a few things, seeing 
how these are *gods* - a "God" Perk for one, and I'd probably give them 
all higher PRE scores. In addition (and I can't give any strong support to 
this from the comics), I might give them all some Power Defense: godhood, 
indicating characters whose existence is very much defined by their 
essence, always seemed to me to be one of the few good justifications of 
that hopelessly vague defense. 
 
You might want to write up one of the most common powers employed by the 
Mother Boxes - the Boom Tube. A teleport with a few advantages, plus (or 
maybe instead) Extradimensional Movement, should pretty much cover it, 
though I'd also toss in a PRE bonus; even though teleportation is 
relatively common in the DC Universe, the opening of a Boom Tube is a 
dramatic event. (Besides, they make a big "BOOM" noise!) 
 
 
 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 17:55:24  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: CHAR: [New Gods] 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:52:17 -0400 (EDT), Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
 
>Very brave of you to write up the ultimate plot device - but of course, 
>that's what VPP's are for.  
> 
>Overall, I really like your write-ups. I might add a few things, seeing 
>how these are *gods* - a "God" Perk for one, and I'd probably give them 
>all higher PRE scores. In addition (and I can't give any strong support to 
>this from the comics), I might give them all some Power Defense: godhood, 
>indicating characters whose existence is very much defined by their 
>essence, always seemed to me to be one of the few good justifications of 
>that hopelessly vague defense. 
 
Okay folks, here's the question.  What does the perk "god" get you you and what would  
it cost? 
 
 
 
>You might want to write up one of the most common powers employed by the 
>Mother Boxes - the Boom Tube. A teleport with a few advantages, plus (or 
>maybe instead) Extradimensional Movement, should pretty much cover it, 
>though I'd also toss in a PRE bonus; even though teleportation is 
>relatively common in the DC Universe, the opening of a Boom Tube is a 
>dramatic event. (Besides, they make a big "BOOM" noise!) 
 
If I get ambitious I'll do up an expanded write-up of a mother box as a separate post. 
 
-=>John Desmarais 
 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:16:10 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: New Gods? 
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	Had a few days of network problems and lost the posted new gods. 
Could someone please send them to me privately? 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 20:29:37  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion... 
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On Wed, 17 Sep 1997 16:41:27 -0400 (EDT), Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
 
>I think most people are in agreement that Dive for Cover can simulate 
>outrunning an explosion. The problem (as I see it, anyway) is with 
>explosions taking place over extremely large areas. A Dive for 5 or 10 
>inches should be pretty easy for a high-DEX speedster, especially with 
>those skill levels. But just try diving a couple of *miles* with a -1 per 
>1"  penalty (have I got that right?)  
> 
>Those large explosions, I think, just call for a GM special effects call. 
>I can certainly think of some effects built with an explosion advantage 
>that would be genuinely instantaneous, but a typical bomb might have a 
>shockwave that would spread out at a speed which a hero might outrun. 
 
Why not just have a Transport effect, xN NCM, Only For Escaping 
Explosions (-2)? Because the hero is running away, you can justifiably 
omit the location. 
 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
MMDF-Warning:  Parse error in original version of preceding line at punt-1.mail.demon.net 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion... 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 21:58:26 +0100 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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--- 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
Date: 18 September 1997 07:24 
Subject: Re: Outrunning an Explosion... 
 
>Mark Lemming wrote: 
>>>Superman flying high above the streets of Metropolis sees bad 
>>> guys with his super-vision about to shoot innocents, he swoops down 
>>> from 400 meters away to bounce the bullets: This would be a -200 
penalty 
>>> with a standard Dive for Cover.) 
>>> 
>>For Superman in the example above: 
>>He sees bad guys about to shoot innocents. 
>>He decides not to use his heat vision to turn the bad guys to ash. 
>>He finishes his half move and then dives the 1". 
>> 
>No, I don't think so.  I thought it was something like this.  Segment 12, 
>they act and everything.  Segment 1, the bad guys had held their Action, 
and 
>decide to use it to shoot the innocent.  Supes didn't hold his Action.  
The 
>only way for him to reach them is to...  Dive for Cover.  At a -200 
penalty. 
>You can't Abort to a Movement Power, and even if you could, that's your 
only 
>action.  You couldn't Abort to a Move, and then a Dive for Cover. 
> 
 
Why not let speedsters abort to a movement power as a GM call? 
According to my rulebook (don't ask me what edition it is.. I don't know 
(unless someone wants to tell me!)) you can't USUALLY use a held move to go 
for a movement power either...  
Obviously for most PC's in most genres this would apply. Being able to hold 
a phase or abort to a movement power is silly (Even Aunt May could dodge a 
bullet if she was ready!) but lets face it: 
THESE GUYS ARE SUPERFAST! Maybe doing this kind of thing every know and 
again (perhaps with a dex roll related to Dive for Cover?) ask a perk of 
being a speedy kind of a guy? 
 
If that doesn't satisfy you, how about a slight alteration to the dive for 
cover rules: 
 
IDEA ONE: 
My rules say that if you miss the dive for cover roll you are consiidered 
to be n the air in your original hex. Why not change this so that, if you 
miss roll, you only make it half way? 
 
IDEA TWO: 
You start off moving your full movement away from the bomb blast/towards 
the bullets. Now for every point you miss the required dice roll by you 
knock of a proportion of that movement.... as to what proportion...... I 
don't know (maybe someone else can follow this one through) 
 
IDEA THREE (OR IS THIS A QUESTION). 
Now, I have just been reading my rulebook, and theres that section on 
movement which explains the difference between combat and noncombat 
movement. It's goes on to explain how a character can only accelerate and 
decelerate by his/her combat movement, taking several phases to get up to 
full speed and several to come back down. 
At this point I confuse myself. 
If you are moving noncombat, do you uses actions to do so?? 
Having read through these rules once, it doesn't look like you do. I mean, 
if you do, then you could be heading a brick wall and think "Pants! I'm 
going to hit that brick wall" but you can INSTANTLY halve your velocity by 
only taking a half move and then say switching on your forcefield! 
I am sure that you do use phases even when moving noncombat (does movin 
gnoncombat take 0 phases perhaps?). If I am correct, then the Superman 
problem is solved by the fact that he was moving noncombat and so could 
easily be maintaining a held phase. I mean, you're Superman, your'e on 
patrol, ready to RACE/SPRING/DIVE FOR COVER into action as soon as danger 
rears it's head and you DON'T have a held phase????? Some hero..... 
 
 
 
TTFN from Chris! 
http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk 
 
X-Sender: wbandsis@mail.westco.net 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 19:11:13 -0400 
From: Charles Badger <wbandsis@westco.net> 
Subject: Re: META:  Opinon wanted. 
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At 05:50 09/19/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>At 12:35 AM 9/19/97, you wrote: 
>>Just a quick question for the readers of this list: 
>> 
>>Is there enough of a diference in the audiences of this list and  
>>rec.games.frp.super-heroes to justify posting things like character 
>write-ups to both? 
> 
>   Probably.  I'm one person who's on the list and not on the newsgroup; 
>and I understand that a few of the folks on the newsgroup tend to look down 
>their noses at the folks on the list, so they're not here. 
 
Also there's those of us who's ISP doesn't get that group in their news feed. 
----- 
Charles T. Badger 
 
 
X-Sender: dalger@thyme.cisco.com 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:35:55 -0700 
From: Douglas Alger <dalger@cisco.com> 
Subject: Re: [New Gods] 
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>Okay folks, here's the question.  What does the perk "god" get you and 
>what would it cost? 
 
I'm playing in a campaign where a character has a 10-point perk of being a 
genuine saint.  While his status is largely overlooked by the masses, it 
has been extremely handy those occasional times he has encountered vampires 
and other unholy types, by tripping some of their appropriate 
susceptibilities. Higher-ups in most of the major religions seem to 
unconsciously defer to his opinions quite a lot, too... 
 
I think the perk's cost and benefits depend a lot upon how the publics 
react to the character. If the general public and established authorities 
(world leaders, the Pope, etc.) will bow, scrape, grovel, build temples, 
whatever - then it's probably as much as 15 points. If most folks won't 
know or recognize the character's divinity then it's probably only 5 points. 
 
Just my 2 cents... 
 
- Doug 
 
 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:53:27 -0700 
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell) 
Subject: Re: Lightning Cage... 
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-> From jrc@mail1.nai.net Fri Sep 19 16:49:23 1997 
->  
->  I once created a Taoist metal sorceror with something like this, "Cage of 
-> the Five Lightnings." I built it as an RKA, Autofire, AE: Hex, 
-> Non-selective target, Hole in the Middle, and Trigger: entering or leaving 
-> the hex. It seemed to work ok, either for attack (imprisoning an enemy) or 
-> defense (cast it around yourself, and no-one can attack you hand to hand 
-> without going through it unless they use a pole arm). 
->  
 
But is sure is embarrassing when you get hit with an energy blast that does 
knockback. 
 
							-Sam 
 
X-Sender: jrc@pop1.nai.net 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 19:34:11 -0500 
From: "Joe Claffey Jr." <jrc@mail1.nai.net> 
Subject: Re: Lightning Cage... 
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psansone@i1.net (Sparx) wrote, 
>Ok, new question, can you tell I've been playing with some creative and 
>interesting people as of late?  I have a player who wants to create a 
>Lightning Cage with his powers.  Sort of like an Entangle, but it doesn't 
>actually hold the person, just does damage to them if they try to pass 
>through it.  I'm sure I know how to do this, but right now, it isn't coming 
>to me, so I turn to the list.  How would you design a lightning cage?  Take 
>it easy and talk at you later. 
>Sparx 
 
 I once created a Taoist metal sorceror with something like this, "Cage of 
the Five Lightnings." I built it as an RKA, Autofire, AE: Hex, 
Non-selective target, Hole in the Middle, and Trigger: entering or leaving 
the hex. It seemed to work ok, either for attack (imprisoning an enemy) or 
defense (cast it around yourself, and no-one can attack you hand to hand 
without going through it unless they use a pole arm). 
 
  Joe Claffey               | "In the end, everything is a gag." 
  jrc@ct1.nai.net           |               - Charlie Chaplin 
 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <korthmat@pilot.msu.edu> 
From: "Matt Korth" <korthmat@cps.msu.edu> 
Organization: I don't think so, Tim. 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:58:20 -0400 
Subject: Re: XP Awards (was Re: NND & Variable special effect) 
Priority: normal 
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>  
> >    I've seen that game, but not examined it closely. 
> >    I wonder... how much of this type of thing does exist in other game 
> > systems, comedic or otherwise?  What, for example, do players get rewarded 
> > for in Paranoia (assuming that's not Ultraviolet Security)? 
>  
>  
> 	There's XP in Paranoia?  I didn't think you were supposed to get 
> through more than one session with a character.  {grin} 
 
I actually ran across one article that proposed that if you start out as  
Red, and survive one mission, you get promoted to Orange; survive 2 more,  
get promoted to Yellow; another 3, to Green; and so on. 
 
Mind you, any Paranoia GM who allows his players to actually *get* that  
far... 
 
--M, who is reporting to the nearest Termination Center. 
 
 
-- 
korthmat@cps.msu.edu  http://www.cps.msu.edu/~korthmat 
*** People who send me UCE/UBE will be crucified. *** 
"Katy, you're a freshman.  Find 2,000 people."  
        --Droz, _PCU_ 
 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 21:28:03 -0400 
Subject: Re:Power Defense Justification 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-5 
From: willggeiger@juno.com (William G Geiger) 
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That's a decent justification.  I run a contemporary Templar with some 
Limited Power Defense, which touches upon your religious motif.  
 
 Aloha,  WillGGeiger@juno.com 
The Computer wants you to be happy. 
If you are not happy, you will be used as reactor shielding. 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 12:03:15 +1000 
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Subject: Re: Hocus Focus 
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limited variable power pool, like a gadget pool? or just an 'only while' (holding ect) 
limitation. ..  
 
 
 
At 05:34 PM 9/18/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>I have an idea for a type of focus, but I'm having trouble building it. 
>Terry the Telepath can read people's minds, but only if he has a personal 
>possession of theirs (eg a favorite shirt, a strand of hair, etc).  He 
>needs a seperate focus for each potential target.  Anyone have any ideas 
>on how this could be implemented? 
> 
>-Eric  
> 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 12:12:27 +1000 
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Subject: Re:Power Defense Justification 
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power defence can also be defined metabolically. it's simply a case of a character being made of sterner stuff than most, harder to drain and so forth. or has somebody already mentioned this? 8g* 
 
 
At 09:28 PM 9/19/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>That's a decent justification.  I run a contemporary Templar with some 
>Limited Power Defense, which touches upon your religious motif.  
> 
> Aloha,  WillGGeiger@juno.com 
>The Computer wants you to be happy. 
>If you are not happy, you will be used as reactor shielding. 
> 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Lightning Cage... 
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Date: 19 Sep 1997 22:43:46 -0400 
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>>>>> "JC" == Joe Claffey <jrc@mail1.nai.net> writes: 
 
JC> I once created a Taoist metal sorceror with something like this, "Cage 
JC> of the Five Lightnings." I built it as an RKA, Autofire, AE: Hex, 
JC> Non-selective target, Hole in the Middle, and Trigger: entering or 
JC> leaving the hex. 
 
The Trigger is superfluous.  By nature, entering or leaving an AoE subjects 
one to the effects of that power. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
From: "VANSICKLE, James" <JVansickle@usae001.shl.com> 
Cc: "'champ-l@omg.org'" <champ-l@omg.org> 
Subject: RE: Power Defense Justification 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 22:15:37 -0500 
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I have seen Shape Shifters use it with the justification that if they 
can control their body to that extent, they should be able to resist 
something like a Transform. 
 
>---------- 
>From: 	William G Geiger[SMTP:willggeiger@juno.com] 
>Sent: 	Friday, September 19, 1997 10:09 PM 
>To: 	champ-l@omg.org 
>Cc: 	champ-l@omg.org 
>Subject: 	Re:Power Defense Justification 
> 
>That's a decent justification.  I run a contemporary Templar with some 
>Limited Power Defense, which touches upon your religious motif.  
> 
> Aloha,  WillGGeiger@juno.com 
>The Computer wants you to be happy. 
>If you are not happy, you will be used as reactor shielding. 
> 
> 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Lightning Cage... 
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>>>>> "Rat" == Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: 
 
Rat> The Trigger is superfluous.  By nature, entering or leaving an AoE 
Rat> subjects one to the effects of that power. 
 
Let me emmend that slightly: simply being within the area of effect of an 
AoE power subjects one to effects of that power. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:39:05 +1000 
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Subject: Re: Lightning Cage... 
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At 11:21 PM 9/19/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "Rat" == Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: 
> 
>Rat> The Trigger is superfluous.  By nature, entering or leaving an AoE 
>Rat> subjects one to the effects of that power. 
> 
>Let me emmend that slightly: simply being within the area of effect of an 
>AoE power subjects one to effects of that power. 
> 
 
how about an area effect which goes off if the person tries to leave the hex?  
 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 23:49:31 -0700 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Paranoia [was;XP Awards] 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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> > For example, in one game some players allowed a scrubbot 
> > to clean the brain of the world's most powerful warbot, thus ruining 
> > it. One of them called in a favor, and got a friend sent over with 
> > orders to inspect the warbot. When the friend opened the braincase, 
> > they shot him and blamed him. The forged inspection order he carried 
> > was enough to save them. Got them bonus points, too 
>  
>         I like that. 
 
     <<....>> 
 
>         Well, I've only played the game once, and that was at a GenCon 
> game this year.  Everyone lost at least three clones, one player lost 
> five.  At one time the entire team was dead. 
>  
>         It was great, however, because the GM did very little of the 
> killing.  (Except maybe for some ammunition that happened to be in the 
> line of fire.)  We were all quite fervrent in our attempt to toadie 
> support from the computer and to not be considered traitorous.  For that, 
> we killed each other as much as possible -- usually with a cry of "He's a 
> traitor!" 
>  
>         It was only coincidence that we barely started our first of three 
> missions, really. 
>  
>                         -Tim Gilberg 
 
   I only had the opportunity to play the game once, but I had a blast; 
the other players got carried away trying to actually survive the game 
and figure out how things work.  I on the other hand simply went with 
the flow and spouted out whatever would be the most 'computer-friendly' 
at any given time.  Ironically, the game ended with me only on my second 
clone and everyone else was on #5 or 6... 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
 
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 02:09:02 -0700 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Lightning Cage... 
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E. David Miller wrote: 
>  
> >Ok, new question, can you tell I've been playing with some creative and 
> >interesting people as of late?  I have a player who wants to create a 
> >Lightning Cage with his powers.  Sort of like an Entangle, but it doesn't 
> >actually hold the person, just does damage to them if they try to pass 
> >through it.  I'm sure I know how to do this, but right now, it isn't coming 
> >to me, so I turn to the list.  How would you design a lightning cage?  Take 
> >it easy and talk at you later. 
> >Sparx 
>  
>         EB (or RKA), Hex AOE, Continuous, Only around the edges (-?) 
>  
>         I would probably make that one a -1; if the player used it often on 
> moving people so as to nail them because they can't get stopped in time, 
> then reduce it to a -1/2.  You will probably want to include some level of 
> either force wall or entangle, linked, so as to represent that just because 
> you take the damage does not mean you get out. 
>  
> Or, build the force wall or the entangle as the larger power, and then link 
> the EB/RKA to it, -1/4 limitation of only goes off on breakout attempts.  ? 
>  
> Other ideas? 
> David Miller 
 
   Actually, I think the Force Wall is a good idea, possibly with a 
limitation that it must be a closed configuration every use (-1/4? 
-1/2?), and then buy the damage as a Damage Shield, linked to the FW, 
rather than a DS on the character.  This configuration may be pricey, 
but it gives some well-defined results; 
 
1)The Force Wall would give a definitive 'defense' to the 'entangle', 
but would remain at full strength until overcome in one shot,  
 
2)The Damage Shield would accurately reflect the relative safety of the 
character who just sits in the Lightning Cage without trying to break 
out. 
 
   I believe that Force Walls (and force fields, for that matter) can 
also be made transparent to PD or ED, if that is desired, though, I 
don't remember if that is in the BBB or one of the HSAlmanacs... 
 
 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <swhbfssg@pop.softnet.co.uk> 
From: "MarkBarltrop" <Mark.Barltrop@kzin.softnet.co.uk> 
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:08:07 +0100 
Subject: Re: Hocus Focus 
Reply-to: tachyon@kzin.softnet.co.uk 
Return-receipt-to: tachyon@kzin.softnet.co.uk 
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On 18 Sep 97 at 17:34, Eric Burns wrote: 
 
> I have an idea for a type of focus, but I'm having trouble building 
> it. Terry the Telepath can read people's minds, but only if he has a 
> personal possession of theirs (eg a favorite shirt, a strand of 
> hair, etc).  He needs a seperate focus for each potential target.  
> Anyone have any ideas on how this could be implemented? 
>  
 
treat each item as a breakable, fragile, personal focus. 
If he can carry multiple possessions for each person (several strands  
of hair, couple of socks, etc) then the focus will be inaccessible  
(if one gets taken out of his hands, he just takes another one out of  
his pocket).Obvious or inobvious will depend on whether he does have  
to hold it in his hands or display it obviously, or just has to have  
it on his person 
An additional limitation would be appropriate to reflect the need to  
get something belonging to someone  before Terry can use his power on  
them - but this depends so much on how the GM wants to play this that  
I won't attempt to set a value on it. 
 
Mark Barltrop (tachyon@kzin.softnet.co.uk) 
'What is it?' 
'Its a wolf!' 
'In a city? What does it find to eat?' 
'Oh, why did you have to ask that?' 
(Terry Pratchett,'Feet of Clay') 
 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
Subject: Fw: New PBEM campaign 
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:47:44 +0100 
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X-Status:  
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X-UID: 90 
 
Still looking for a few good men and women 
 ---- 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: 17 September 1997 11:50 
Subject: New PBEM campaign 
 
>I am going to have a go at starting my own PBEM. This is something that I 
>have never done before, and the whole thing is going to be highly 
>experimental! 
> 
>I am looking for players with time to spare, patience (I just told you... 
I 
>haven't doen this before!), and as much expertise as possible. 
> 
>Attached are the campaign guidelines and a brief history of the campaign 
>world. 
>All questions answered, all players welcome.... 
> 
>(Advice from practicing PBEM GM's also appreciated!!!) 
> 
>TTFN from Chris! 
>http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk 
>  
 
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From: "MarkBarltrop" <Mark.Barltrop@kzin.softnet.co.uk> 
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 17:15:17 +0100 
Subject: You can't have too much maths!(was:Re: Hero System formula) 
Reply-to: tachyon@kzin.softnet.co.uk 
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On 18 Sep 97 at 10:09, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
> Mark Baltrop (tachyon@kzin.softnet.co.uk) wrote: 
> >On 15 Sep 97 at 23:05, Stephen B. Mann wrote: 
> >> Can anyone out there tell me how to convert Hero STR to weight 
> >> lifted? I know that a 20 STR can lift 200 kb, but how much can a 31 
> >> STR lift? 
> >(Actually 20 STR can lift 400 Kg) 
> >25* (2^ (STR/5)) Kg 
> >>      Similarly, how fast is SPD 8, 13" Running, with x4 noncombat 
> >> multiplier in MPH? How do I convert these numbers to real world 
> >> measurements? 
> >(SPD*Move*NCM)*0.6 KPH (or *0 .37 MPH) 
> > 
>         Okay, so you actually figured out the equation for STR.  
>         Which makes 
> it look more elegant than mine.  : P 
>         But how do *you* feel about the fact that the formula value 
>         and book 
> value of, say, 33 STR differ?  Why doesn't Hero use a straight 
> exponential? Too much math?  That's like closing the barn door after 
> the horse is already gone. 
>  
The formula gives 606 Kg for 23STR, whereas the BBB says 600. 
Close enough for me- I'm more concerned by the more obvious fudges  
like the time chart. I think you've got a point about horses and barn  
doors - As well as consolidating all the different hero system rules  
into one whole (a Good thing, on balance), 4th edition tends to  
simplify what its inherited from earlier editions - You only have to  
look at Fuzion/CNM to see what they'd do if they were writing Champs  
from scratch today. I guess they think today's Storyteller/CCG  
players won't (or Can't :-)) handle the maths. 
Mark Barltrop (tachyon@kzin.softnet.co.uk) 
'What is it?' 
'Its a wolf!' 
'In a city? What does it find to eat?' 
'Oh, why did you have to ask that?' 
(Terry Pratchett,'Feet of Clay') 
 
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 12:25:38 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: CHAR: [New Gods] 
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> 
> Okay folks, here's the question.  What does the perk "god" get you you and what would 
> it cost? 
 
 
	This is really a campaign-by-campaign thing. 
 
	Some campaigns it would mean just about nothing; in others it 
grants a recognition of authority and power with the ability to affect 
the world situation on a whim. 
 
	Gm's call. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 12:27:30 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Subject: New Gods 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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	O.K.  Thanks for the response on sending me the New Gods. 
 
	I just hope that the network fix we utilized holds up. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 


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