Week Ending October 11, 1997
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 11:19:22 +1000
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Subject: Re: Mind Control/Telepathy via TV?
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At 06:43 AM 10/3/97 -0400, you wrote:
>jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 10/3/97 12:16 AM
>
>>At 01:16 PM 10/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>"j" == jonesmj <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> writes:
>"r" == Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes:
>
>j> why not a 'hero'???
>
>r>Yup, it is really heroic to turn an entire city into one's personal,
>r>mindless zombies.
>
>j>take a look at mr wong's supercop. . . . she's a hero, but frankly i
>seen
>j>any nondemocratic nation as a country of zombies(and that includes big
>j>lumps of america AND australia). . . . .
>
>OK, it's bad enough I find myself in agreement with jones in principal,
>but
>I can't let this one slide. Most Democratic nations are a bunch of
>mindless
>zombies too. A few guys with the bucks and control of the media define
>"democracy" in most of the world. Yes, I'm a cynic.
>
like i said 'big lumps of american AND australia' but i would suggest that those 'lumps' simply aren't expressing democratic rights, hence they aren't democratic... giving people with money control over governments actions (ne1 in aus will know of a mister packer?) isn't democratic. . . . but i believe this is a conversation for another list? Unless i start useing heaps of examples of my favorite npc (captain democracy- imagine 'the champ' but obbsessed with calling votes over everything as opposed to welfare)
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 11:28:21 +1000
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Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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At 07:34 AM 10/3/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>Ever hear of "Flight of the Valkyries", the old CHAMPIONS module
>>where the only way to "win" was to let the Holocaust happen? Brrrr.
>
> Which is not all that far off the classic Star Trek episode "The City on
>the Edge of Forever," where the heroic *goal* was to *make sure* it
>happened.
here's the problem- in star treck it's alright to give people 'one option' plots (you MUST do this or all history will change for the worse, ect) but in an rpg, it's patently unfair to be so heavy-handed. .. but where is the line drawn? i can't think of any 'borderline' examples. . .
>---
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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>
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 12:12:58 +1000
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Subject: Re: GMing Question #2
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At 03:38 AM 10/3/97 -0700, you wrote:
>jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>>
>> At 10:43 AM 10/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
>> >Nez wrote some comments about moral dilemmas being interesting role-playing
>> >opportunities. That's one perspective that I partially agree with.
>> >However, they could also be viewed as 'no-win' situations. I suggest using
>> >these sparingly if you're not sure how your players and/or their characters
>> >would react.
>>
>> it's only no-win if the gm let's it be ... i'd say a moral dillema is like any good >puzzle- the way out should NOY be just what the gm has planned. . but what the pc's >throw together. .
>
> This brings me to my other question (which is why I specified that
> the last one was #1):
>
>How often do you craft a scenario with certain assumptions BASED ON
>gaming experience with certain players/characters, just to have the
>players completely out of the blue flabbergast you with a totally
>unexpected direction?
>
ok, how's this:
The pc's try to take over a city. I thhink i've mentioned this before, but basically the pc's decided to rule the island of manhattan and surrounding 'territory' for it's own good. This was a psudo-historical setting in which the balance of econimic power was centered on america, but only because of it's superhuman population.
basically the government- the entire populace, actually, was becoming rather dependant on superheros. . . whatever the trouble, there would be a superhero there to solve it. .
so the players up and staged a coup. .. . i think one of them faked an earthquake- it was marvelous to see basically 4-color characters reveal a machiavellian side which was barely hinted at before. .. many twists and betrayals ensued, including the team brick
(classic dumb pc/hack and slash player) excersising a brilliant master stroke to take control of the city. .. .
All this came as a complete suprise to me, although apparently they planned out the original coup over a weekend between games, when i suggested that if their pc's didn't like the crime problems in the city, they should try to make a real differnece. . ..
From: Strmbrngr2@aol.com
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 23:00:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: character sheets
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I'm sorry my request wasn't clear, but I was wondering where I could find
champions 4th ed. blank character sheets to down load and print out. If
someone could help me I would be forever in their dept.
thanks.
strmbrngr2
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 23:23:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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On Sat, 4 Oct 1997, Jim Dickinson wrote:
>
> >I think I would find such a plot pretty offensive. Such heavy handed use
> >of one's personal beliefs should be avoided in a game.
>
> This discussion seems like it's getting pretty silly to me.
Why? I simply said I wouldn't care for his plot/storyline.
> There are
> OFTEN, but not always, personal beliefs and "agendas" buried in plotlines of
> games, movies, TV Shows, and books. I found it amusing to a degree that
> Leonard Nemoy's Star Trek movie was an overglorified "Save the Wales"
> plotline, and then again, I also found it something I was rolling my eyes
> over. But am I "offended?" Naw.
I wasn't offended over that movie either, although I do agree it is a bit
much.
> Perhaps my personal beliefs clash with the notion that any sort of magic
> could be used "benevolently" because Magic, perhaps to me, is inherently
> evil, because perhaps my Christian beliefs are very clear on that. I should
> be offended then by the hidden "devilish" agenda of nearly ANY fantasy game
> I might join (and actually many Champions games) because supposedly Magic is
> presented as being a "good" power (aka White Magic).
For the record, I consider myself a Christian as well, and no, I'm not
offended by the use of magic in games. I'm smart enough to know where to
draw the line between fantasy and reality.
> And we won't even get into SPAWN...you know...the "good guy" from Hell.
Yeah, well I don't read Spawn. Although there are some interesting ideas
there.
> >In my opinion, a
> >RPG is there to create a fun environment for everyone, not to push
> >anyone's beliefs on others.
>
> I think it is interesting when people feel like beliefs are being "pushed"
> on them from within a passive plotline. Players should be playing a ROLE,
> and should be PLAYING out that role the way the PC would react, etc, etc.
> It's not like the GM came out and said, "OK, in my game, here is the what
> you need to accept as truth if you want to play..."
Except that even in the confines of a game there may come subject matter
that people may not want to deal with even 'in character'. There was a
pretty big discussion about this on another list I am on, and there result
was a split. Some felt that people should seperate game events from real
events, others felt that the emotional impact of certain events (such as
child abuse and rape) may be such that they wouldn't (or couldn't) deal
with such events in a game situation.
I have been in a game where one player asked the another (and the GM) to
can a plotline becuase she didn't like the way it was headed (as a person,
not as her character).
> >Many years ago a local GM< set up a plot where the party went back in time
> >to WWII. Along the way, the team ended up in England, and were asked to
> >travel to Germany and try and kill Hitler. The game stopped right
> >there and dissolved into an hours long argument over whether or not it was
> >right to go and do such a thing.
>
> I think that this is sad. Now, I wasn't there, so maybe there are some
> details that you left out, but I personally would have found this plot
> particularly intriguing. It would have likely degenerated into heated
> discussion...but it would have likely been "in character" as we role-play
> out the possibilities.
Well, it was something like 10 years ago. And any 'in-character'
discussion degenerated into an out of character debate.
> >I ended up telling the GM that I would
> >be leaving the game until the adventure was over, and the reaction for
> >other players was strong enough that the idea was scrapped and the
> >sequence ended quickly.
>
> You see, here you and I are very different.
And is this wrong?
> The only time in memory that I
> have ever told the GM I would be bowing out of a game until things changes
> was a loooong time ago when an inexperienced GM went on a power trip and
> created a umpteen-thousand point villain that could not be stopped. We
> tried everything we could think of to stop this thing, but everything ended
> up comkpletely futile. After a full 4 hours of game time trying everything
> we could possibly think of, I was exhausted and exasperated, and I told the
> GM I wasn't going to play because it was very clear there was no way to
> defeat, or even thwart, this villain in any way. The villain would be free
> to do as he pleased, so there was no point in bothering to defeat him. The
> GM agreed that he had tried to build a villain that could not be stopped,
> and apologized for creating the "no win" scenario. And the game ended.
Yeah, well I'd bow out of such a game as well.
> > (I also thought the entire WWII situation was
> >being presented to light-hearted and white-washed, but that's just me.)
>
> I agree, though, that if the game is to take a serious tone such as the
> possible prevention of the loss of millions of lives, that the game should
> not be light-hearted. But it would be fascinating to try to simulate this
> possibility of putting super-heroes in the position to slay this greatly
> evil man. Wow, it would be so hard to argue against it -- saying that this
> would clearly change the timeline, and disrupt the future as we know
> it...yadda, yadda...
My arguemnt was simple: Where do we stop?
We know that Hitler killed 6 million Jews, Slavs, gypsys and other
'undesireables' so we kkill him. Then, since that was a justifiable act
(he is EVIL after all) we should go kill Stalin (because he will kill 20
million people in his purges). Do we then set our sights on Ho Chi Min,
Mao Tse Tung, J Edgar Hoover? If you are going to kill one man for the
greater good of all mankind, might as well start capping them all. Hell,
it's 1942, we can bag some of these people in infancy or their youth (like
Lee Harvey Oswald etc).
At this point you are no longer playing superheroes. The characters have
now set themselves up as Judge, Jury and Executioner, with the rational of
'the greater good' and 40 years of history as their moral standard. But,
who are we (ie the PC) to make such judgements?
One man's evil villian might well be another's heroic ideal...
> >I think a GM should try and be neutral in his presentation of adventures,
> >or, at least, be aware of what will and will not go over well with his
> >PCs. The main idea is for people to enjoy themselves, not to push any one
> >ideaology.
>
> GMs aren't going for Nelson Ratings. But in a way, I agree with you.
Yeah, but GMing for an empty room sure ain't much fun either.
> However, Christopher was clearly GMing for others that likely felt that evil
> spirits and abortions might be related somehow...enough that none of his
> players got up and walked out of the game, eh?
I guess so, but, then, I'm not in that game.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 23:28:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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On Sat, 4 Oct 1997, Christopher Taylor wrote:
> >> I DO have a moral agenda in my games, Im always trying to get the players to
> >> be better people, Im a Christian and that comes through in my games, but no
> >> one has complained yet. I even did a big game on how the abortions at the
> >> local hospital were summoning a spirit of evil, heh heh nuff said :)
> >
> >I think I would find such a plot pretty offensive. Such heavy handed use
> >of one's personal beliefs should be avoided in a game.
>
> Yeah I was misleading in that post. The problem was the creature, not the
> abortions neccessarily. It was simply trapped under where the hospital was
> hundreds of years ago by a shaman, and was set free by the deaths at the
> hospital. It wouldnt have shown up so soon if there hadnt been the
> abortions the increasing the numbers by so much.
Hmmm... yeah, this isn't quite so extreme as you first made it out. I
still don't think I'd care for the plot idea much (and yes, this is
something I have strong personal feelings about, for various reasons).
> >I mena, are you going to tel me that in your world it would be wrong for a
> >superhero to try and stop the anit-abortion activitsts who feel it is
> proper to >blow up clinics and shoot doctors?
>
> Tisk tisk :) Thats moral reductionism, I wasnt trying to make them anti
> abortion, I was just using a real world issue to create a nice moral dilemma.
> Consider the other plot I used where in an inner city Detroit hospital, they
> were selling organs from live donors (like a kidney, part of a liver, etc),
> and using the proceeds to stay open and keep treating the people too poor to
> pay...and paying the donors a grand a pop also. The heroes had to decide if
> they wanted to stop this process and close the hospital, or let it go on...
Actually, this is a prety cool plot line. Very reminiscent of the sort of
things I 'd like to try in my cyberpunk game.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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From: "Jim Dickinson" <champion@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 21:02:08 -0700
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>
>My arguemnt was simple: Where do we stop?
>
>We know that Hitler killed 6 million Jews, Slavs, gypsys and other
>'undesireables' so we kkill him. Then, since that was a justifiable act
>(he is EVIL after all) we should go kill Stalin (because he will kill 20
>million people in his purges). Do we then set our sights on Ho Chi Min,
>Mao Tse Tung, J Edgar Hoover? If you are going to kill one man for the
>greater good of all mankind, might as well start capping them all. Hell,
>it's 1942, we can bag some of these people in infancy or their youth (like
>Lee Harvey Oswald etc).
I have always felt that Comic book games were really meant more for "moral
battles" over physical battles because that seemed to be where heroes were:
Super Human with Human Morality. Some choose the path of light. Others
choose darkness. And so the battle begins.
I think it would be a great exploration of "Where the characters really are"
on the "Morality Continuum" with a story like that. I think a great way to
stage it is to have a scientist (or something like that) find a way to
travel in time to commit the "Save the World Assassinations" and the PC
group finds out. They learn who the target is and then have to make the
moral decision: Do we stop this guy? Or do we let him do it? Or do we help
him?
As a GM of this game, I would be of the opinion that "It would be VERY VERY
bad to kill Hitler" because of the changes in the timeline that would
result, etc. Is this offensive to anyone? Does it sound like I have a
Supremesist Agenda?
On the other hand, I would personally have a struggle with the decision if
it were ever up to me to strangle little Adolf in the crib or let the
monster grow up...
And that's what the game is all about...at least sometimes (IMO).
Other times, it's just about "Clobberin' Time!" ;-)
>
>At this point you are no longer playing superheroes. The characters have
>now set themselves up as Judge, Jury and Executioner, with the rational of
>'the greater good' and 40 years of history as their moral standard. But,
>who are we (ie the PC) to make such judgements?
>
>One man's evil villian might well be another's heroic ideal...
>
>> >I think a GM should try and be neutral in his presentation of
adventures,
>> >or, at least, be aware of what will and will not go over well with his
>> >PCs. The main idea is for people to enjoy themselves, not to push any
one
>> >ideaology.
>>
>> GMs aren't going for Nelson Ratings. But in a way, I agree with you.
>
>Yeah, but GMing for an empty room sure ain't much fun either.
>
>> However, Christopher was clearly GMing for others that likely felt that
evil
>> spirits and abortions might be related somehow...enough that none of his
>> players got up and walked out of the game, eh?
>
>I guess so, but, then, I'm not in that game.
>
>***************************************************************************
>* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
>* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
>* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
>* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
>* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
>* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
>***************************************************************************
>
>
From: DocWeird@aol.com
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 04:34:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: GM question #1 Morality in gaming
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Uncle Ben / Peter Parker said it best: " With great power comes great
responsibility."
Characters have the power to alter the world: it the morals of the
individual superbeing that cause them to be Heroes or Villans.
As players , and as GM's we may not believe exactly the same as the
character that we are playing.
If I'm not mistaken, that's why it's called a Role-Playing game..
Just 2 more cents in the
pool
Doc
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 07:32:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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On Sat, 4 Oct 1997, Jim Dickinson wrote:
> >
> >My arguement was simple: Where do we stop?
> >
> >We know that Hitler killed 6 million Jews, Slavs, gypsys and other
> >'undesireables' so we kill him. Then, since that was a justifiable act
> >(he is EVIL after all) we should go kill Stalin (because he will kill 20
> >million people in his purges). Do we then set our sights on Ho Chi Min,
> >Mao Tse Tung, J Edgar Hoover? If you are going to kill one man for the
> >greater good of all mankind, might as well start capping them all. Hell,
> >it's 1942, we can bag some of these people in infancy or their youth (like
> >Lee Harvey Oswald etc).
>
> I have always felt that Comic book games were really meant more for "moral
> battles" over physical battles because that seemed to be where heroes were:
> Super Human with Human Morality. Some choose the path of light. Others
> choose darkness. And so the battle begins.
>
> I think it would be a great exploration of "Where the characters really are"
> on the "Morality Continuum" with a story like that. I think a great way to
> stage it is to have a scientist (or something like that) find a way to
> travel in time to commit the "Save the World Assassinations" and the PC
> group finds out. They learn who the target is and then have to make the
> moral decision: Do we stop this guy? Or do we let him do it? Or do we help
> him?
>
> As a GM of this game, I would be of the opinion that "It would be VERY VERY
> bad to kill Hitler" because of the changes in the timeline that would
> result, etc. Is this offensive to anyone? Does it sound like I have a
> Supremesist Agenda?
No. Going back in time and killing anyone could have profound changes on
the world of the future (especially in a comic universe). Who knows? You
may have just eliminated your own existance.
> On the other hand, I would personally have a struggle with the decision if
> it were ever up to me to strangle little Adolf in the crib or let the
> monster grow up...
There is a time/dimensional travel novel where our hero finds himself
walking along a country road. He stops to ask a young boy where he is and
realizses (in the course of conversation) that the child is (in fact)
Adolf Hitler. He stands ther and struggles with this fact, but finally
decides to let the child live. Why? Because he decides he has no right
to judge the boy at this age, he cannot know for certain that young Adolf
will go and comit his great crimes (at least not in *this* universe/time).
The boy also has done nothing wrong (yet) and (to him) it seems wrong to
punish him for something he *might* do. Of course, he does have to deal
with the fact that he may be wrong...
> And that's what the game is all about...at least sometimes (IMO).
>
> Other times, it's just about "Clobberin' Time!" ;-)
I guess I prefer a more escapist view in my games, where the action is
more straightforward and the deep philisophical discussions take a
backseat to rip-roaring adventure. But then, to each his own...
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 05:53:08 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 07:32 AM 10/5/97 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>> As a GM of this game, I would be of the opinion that "It would be VERY VERY
>> bad to kill Hitler" because of the changes in the timeline that would
>> result, etc. Is this offensive to anyone? Does it sound like I have a
>> Supremesist Agenda?
>
>No. Going back in time and killing anyone could have profound changes on
>the world of the future (especially in a comic universe). Who knows? You
>may have just eliminated your own existance.
>
>> On the other hand, I would personally have a struggle with the decision if
>> it were ever up to me to strangle little Adolf in the crib or let the
>> monster grow up...
>
>There is a time/dimensional travel novel where our hero finds himself
>walking along a country road. He stops to ask a young boy where he is and
>realizses (in the course of conversation) that the child is (in fact)
>Adolf Hitler. He stands ther and struggles with this fact, but finally
>decides to let the child live. Why? Because he decides he has no right
>to judge the boy at this age, he cannot know for certain that young Adolf
>will go and comit his great crimes (at least not in *this* universe/time).
>The boy also has done nothing wrong (yet) and (to him) it seems wrong to
>punish him for something he *might* do. Of course, he does have to deal
>with the fact that he may be wrong...
And nobody's even brought up (at least directly, so far) the possibility
that without Hitler in place, the Nazi Party might have come up led by
someone even more vicious -- and with enough intelligence to actually win
WWII.
Hm... now there's an interesting plotline. PCs go back and kill Hitler
as a child, then return to find the world ruled by a Nazi regime. Then
they have to go back and prevent themselves from killing Hitler.
>I guess I prefer a more escapist view in my games, where the action is
>more straightforward and the deep philisophical discussions take a
>backseat to rip-roaring adventure. But then, to each his own...
I tend toward that myself, but I like to sneak in little "Star
Trek"/"Twilight Zone" morality plays every so often.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: GM question #1
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 15:04:35 GMT
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On Sun, 05 Oct 1997 05:53:08 -0700, you wrote:
> And nobody's even brought up (at least directly, so far) the possibility
>that without Hitler in place, the Nazi Party might have come up led by
>someone even more vicious -- and with enough intelligence to actually win
>WWII.
In the "Valkyrie" scenario mentioned before, that's exactly what
happens. A scientist builds a time machine and sends a group of hand
picked supers back to kill Hitler. They do it, but the "present"
changes into a totalitarian dominated world because of his death. The
PC heroes have to go back in time to ---prevent--- Hitler's death.
> Hm... now there's an interesting plotline. PCs go back and kill Hitler
>as a child, then return to find the world ruled by a Nazi regime. Then
>they have to go back and prevent themselves from killing Hitler.
See above. Try and find that "Valkyrie" scenario if you are
interested. It lists a time line after Hitler's death that's plausible
all the way up to the present day.
John Lansford
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 23:35:43 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Judge, Jury and Executioner (was Re: GM question #1)
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Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Sun, 5 Oct 1997, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> > At this point you are no longer playing superheroes. The characters have
>> > now set themselves up as Judge, Jury and Executioner, with the rational of
>> > 'the greater good' and 40 years of history as their moral standard. But,
>> > who are we (ie the PC) to make such judgements?
>>
>> I don't know. I've seen PC's who believe they are Judge, Jury,
>> and Executioner.
>
>Yeah, same here.
I've been thinking of running a plot where the vigilante PC meets up
with a vigilante who has the same motives as he does. I want to elicite
(sp?) a roleplaying response from the guy, but he may just decide that the
other vig is simply a bad guy.
>
>ANd then ther was the villain team of the same name. Jury even had
>duplication (12 duplicates).
>
Are these guys a published team (comics or otherwise) of just the
creation of a devious mind?
Let's see... give Jury Enraged or Berserk and he's Twelve Angry Men.
If Judge is crooked, he could have Vulnerability: 2x Effect from Bribes.
Seriously, though, could you give more specifics on these characters?
- Jerry
X-Sender: filkhero@pop.netaddress.com (Unverified)
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 12:36:15 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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At 01:10 PM 9/28/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>
>But molten lava/core of the earth and arctic conditions/surface of an
>atmosphereless planet *aren't* "minor" environmental effects. I could (if I
>bothered) come up with SFX of Desolid to allow me to survive in these
>environments. I just beleive that characters shouldn't get that for free.
>Pay for the Life Support (even if it *is* Linked to the Desolid).
All of this discussion is interesting, but it still doesn't solve the
original problem. Consider two villains. Both have an RKA Radius Area
Effect. One is defined as a "heat field", the other "the ground turns into
lava".
By the arguments I have been hearing, the guy with "ground is lava" gets
Affects Desolidified for free. Either that, or you have to explain exactly
why regular lava does affect de solidified, but the villains lava doesn't.
If you buy enough of the proper defense, you gain effective immunity to
environmental effects. A character with a 45 Energy Defense is immune to
arctic winter, _except breathing_, because breathing bypasses the defense.
I think that desolidification deserves a similar consideration- the lava
can't burn you, but _don't breathe_.
Filksinger
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 14:49:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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> And nobody's even brought up (at least directly, so far) the possibility
> that without Hitler in place, the Nazi Party might have come up led by
> someone even more vicious -- and with enough intelligence to actually win
> WWII.
> Hm... now there's an interesting plotline. PCs go back and kill Hitler
> as a child, then return to find the world ruled by a Nazi regime. Then
> they have to go back and prevent themselves from killing Hitler.
Nor is this a terribly unlikly scenario idea. Hitler himself often ruled
by keeping all the people blow him in direcet competion with each other,
so no one trusted anyone else enough to try for a coup. This made for a
very inefficient government. The fact Hitler was a poor general who
insisted on meddling in the running of the military also had a big impact
on the war.
>
> >I guess I prefer a more escapist view in my games, where the action is
> >more straightforward and the deep philisophical discussions take a
> >backseat to rip-roaring adventure. But then, to each his own...
True. I personally prefer to run games that have more of a Hong Kong
action feel. The usual trouble with this is keeping the action moving
without getting bogged down in rules discussions, but it's been some time
since this was a real problem in one of my games.
TokyoMark
X-Sender: filkhero@pop.netaddress.com (Unverified)
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 13:44:29 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: In defense of Shape Shift (was: CHAR: The Saint)
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At 11:19 AM 9/30/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote:
>> > I'd say, basically, no chance of being found out. No one is going
>> >to sense out the disguise with a lucky PER roll, which the skill can
>> >allow.
>> >
>> Unfortunately, so does Shapeshift. In order to imitate particular people
>> with Shapeshift, you need Disguise skill. If you fail your roll, the
>> disguise just wasn't good enough, and if the person makes their PER roll,
>> then the disguise wasn't good enough. Shapeshift doesn't change this.
>>
>> Filksinger
>>
>
>I usually agree with you, Filk, but I've got to argue with you now. If Shape
>Shift is as suceptable to being found out as disguise, then why on Earth is
>it worth 30pts (20pts + 0 END (+1/2)).
As you point out later in your post, Disguise that cannot be discovered is
_more_ expensive than the Shapeshift you describe. Therefore, your
Shapeshift, if it allows perfect disguises without Disguise, is a cheaper
way of imitating the skill.
>The description for Shape Shift says
>that a successful disguise roll lets the shape shifter become an "instant
>duplicate" of someone specific. To my mind, duplicate means exactly the same
>appearance.
Agreed. That's what it should do. However, the BBB says that the Disguise
skill is necessary.
>But let's assume your inerpretation is correct for a moment. Miss Trick of
>the Sisterhood of Evil Metahumans can instantly take on the appearance of
>any human of her approximate size. She looks exactly the same, so much so
>that no one can tell the difference.
>
>Shape Shift - humanoids 20pts, 0 END (+1/2) 30pts
>
>Instant Change - 10pts
>
>Char - +24 COM 12pts, Linked to Shape Shift (-1/2) 8pts
>
>So far so good, but she needs a high disguise skill to make sure that no one
>could tell that she is the person she is impersonating. How high? Let's
>assume that the highest perception roll that anyone is likely to have is
>a 14-. This means that someone who looks at her could theoretically succeed
>his perception roll by 11 points. Therefore, Miss Trick must have a high
>enough disguise roll such that she will succeed by at least 11 points.
>An 18 + 11 = 29- roll. This will cost her 3 + (18 * 2) = 39pts!
>
>Skill: Disguise - 11- based, +18 levels 39pts, 29- Roll
>
>In other words, using your interpretation, Miss Trick must spend more points
>on her disguise skill than she does on her Shape Shift power. She must also
>have the disguise skill at a superhuman level before she can fully use her
>power. She's already spent 87pts on her powers/skills, and she hasn't even
>bought her mimicry and acting skills yet!
>
>Don't you think this is a wee bit ridiculous?
>
Yes. However, that is what the rules _said_. I haven't taken this position
based upon what I think is reasonable, but only what is in the rules. I
hope the following suggestions help.
I have a solution for you. It shows why the Shapeshift power, used only to
imitate people, is more expensive than Disguise. It also makes Disguise,
when used with Shapechange, much cheaper.
To begin with, Shapeshift is expensive because of all the things it can do
that Disguise cannot. Make you six inches taller than normal. Change your
hair length, color, and facial features by an enormous degree, without
makeup or prosthesis. Copy someone without preparation. Special features
are unremovable. ("This man is a fraud! This nose is a fake! (Pause) Uh,
just a moment...I swear, I saw him without it a moment ago...No, wait, I
can prove it! Let go of me! I'm not mad!" Door slams, guests gossip.)
Change gender, well enough to fool a strip search. (Change gender for other
purposes should probably not be discussed here.)
The second use is based upon my poor memory. I cannot find my BBB, as I
just moved, so I have to do this based upon memory.
In the BBB, it states that you need Disguise to use Shapeshift to copy a
person. I don't believe it says that you need to roll. If it does, assume a
base roll is sufficient for a perfect copy.
If this is too much, consider that you get a +1-3 for having the proper
makeup and other tools. How much of a bonus do you get for Shapechange? +5?
More? That takes care of part of the problem.
Hope this helps clarify my position, and soften it at the same time.
Filksinger
X-Sender: filkhero@pop.netaddress.com (Unverified)
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 13:48:45 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Vehicles and bases
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At 06:19 AM 9/28/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>>In fact, If I chose to replace a follower via a quest, I think that I
>>would make a special award of experience to be used to create a
>>replacement follower, and leave the dead follower on the base character's
>>sheet forever as a reminder.
>
> This is not unreasonable.
Except, perhaps, in the case of entire agencies being your followers.
Consider someone with an army of followers, who not only has to pay points
to replace them, but who dramatically increases the size of their army to
boot just to replace one follower. Then, keep track of every dead follower
on the sheet is a bit unreasonable, if you have 1024 of them to begin with.
Filksinger
X-Sender: filkhero@pop.netaddress.com
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 14:58:00 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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At 11:27 PM 10/2/97 GMT, John Lansford wrote:
>
>In my campaign there is a local anti-hero who is going around killing
>drug lords. His powers allow him to find out who's a dealer, and he
>executes them on the spot. Now, some of these people aren't exactly
>the stereotypical drug dealer; one was a high level politician in the
>city. The heroes have found out the connecting link between the
>killings (they were all drug lords) and now have a major morality
>problem.
>
>Do they hunt and attempt to capture this anti-hero, or do they do
>nothing? Right now the team leader feels he should be brought to
>justice, even though he's doing the city a lot of good (drug related
>crimes have fallen drastically).
>
>However, the hero group has two aliens in it who believe what he is
>doing is quite acceptable and he should be lauded for his actions. It
>will be interesting to see how this resolves.
>
You could also bring in Libertarian views, and see how they resolve this.
Since libertarians believe that drugs should be legal, are these drug lords
criminals or not? Should they be brought in? Do they use force (which is
not allowed in Libertarianism) to support their drug empire, and if they
do, is it strictly defensive against others of their ilk (allowed by
Libertarianism)?
Filksinger
X-Sender: filkhero@pop.netaddress.com
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 16:00:47 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Mobile Infantry Trooper
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At 08:14 PM 9/28/97 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote:
<snip>
>Yes. I'll point out that in the book, the only way to gain a vote in
>government was military service
<snip>
Not quite. While the book appears to say this, and many people have claimed
this over the years, a _very_ close examination of the book shows this to
be incorrect. Heinlein himself said it was wrong many times, as well.
What was required was to enter into Federal Service, which sent you into
unpleasant and dangerous jobs, but is only combat positions 5% of the time.
Federal Service was intended to include a considerable number of
nonmilitary, non-combatant jobs. Heinlein stated that this number was 95%
of the whole, that all of the military forces in _Starship Troopers_
consisted solely of combat positions. This fits with what is said in the
book, that 95% of "Federal Service" is non-combat, and that anyone in a
military should be in combat positions, no exceptions.
Federal Service was intended as a unique poll tax, and they were required
to allow _anyone_ in, no matter what, unless they had been thrown out or
left previously. It was not necessarily military (though _they_ decided
what service you would get), nor, unlike France, Switzerland, or Israel,
was it mandatory.
Filksinger
X-Sender: filkhero@pop.netaddress.com
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 16:13:52 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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At 11:28 AM 10/5/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>
>
>here's the problem- in star treck it's alright to give people 'one option'
plots (you MUST do this or all history will change for the worse, ect) but
in an rpg, it's patently unfair to be so heavy-handed. .. but where is the
line drawn? i can't think of any 'borderline' examples. . .
I don't think I would play in your games. They are too limiting in their
scenarios.
In this case, you are declaring that it is improper in a RPG to play out
the greatest of all human tragedies- antimony.
Filksinger
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 19:38:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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On Sun, 5 Oct 1997, Tokyo Mark wrote:
> > >I guess I prefer a more escapist view in my games, where the action is
> > >more straightforward and the deep philisophical discussions take a
> > >backseat to rip-roaring adventure. But then, to each his own...
>
> True. I personally prefer to run games that have more of a Hong Kong
> action feel. The usual trouble with this is keeping the action moving
> without getting bogged down in rules discussions, but it's been some time
> since this was a real problem in one of my games.
What with the publication of Feng Shi and my current addiction to HK
cinema, the same goes for me. Of course, anyone who watches anough HK
flics will realize that you can shovel in all the angst and moral lessons
you want... just add sufficent bullets.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 05 Oct 1997 21:10:29 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
F> By the arguments I have been hearing, the guy with "ground is lava" gets
F> Affects Desolidified for free. Either that, or you have to explain exactly
F> why regular lava does affect de solidified, but the villains lava doesn't.
Wrong; I never said that. What I said is that the *environmental* effects
- -- the secondary effects if you would -- of those things can still harm a
desolidified character if he does not have Life Support vs. extreme heat.
Lava will not burn a desolidified character, but the intense heat could
take him down if he is exposed to it for too long -- assuming that it is
"real" lava and the attacks are bought as such instead of just short-lived
"jets" -- just as it could anyone else.
F> If you buy enough of the proper defense, you gain effective immunity to
F> environmental effects. A character with a 45 Energy Defense is immune to
F> arctic winter,
While buying lots of Energy Defense may protect one from the *damage*
caused by some forms of bitter-cold attacks, it will not keep one warm, it
will not prevent hypothermia, it will not prevent freezing to death due to
prolonged exposure to such conditions.
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From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: WWII plots (was: Re: GM question #1)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 21:17:05 -0400 (EDT)
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>
> so no one trusted anyone else enough to try for a coup. This made for a
> very inefficient government. The fact Hitler was a poor general who
> insisted on meddling in the running of the military also had a big impact
> on the war.
>
Which leads to a game-universe possible situation that perhaps the
Nazi's _did_ win WWII, until some time-traveling resistance fighters
killed their leader and replaced him with a madman with a funny
mustache. Then, the PC's discover a plot by some "mysterious
time travlers" to "put Hitler into power" and go back and try to
*stop* it......
Daniel Pawtowski
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 21:15:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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> My arguemnt was simple: Where do we stop?
That's part of the whole scenario -- part of the whole moral
quandary.
> We know that Hitler killed 6 million Jews, Slavs, gypsys and other
> 'undesireables' so we kkill him. Then, since that was a justifiable act
> (he is EVIL after all) we should go kill Stalin (because he will kill 20
> million people in his purges). Do we then set our sights on Ho Chi Min,
> Mao Tse Tung, J Edgar Hoover? If you are going to kill one man for the
> greater good of all mankind, might as well start capping them all. Hell,
> it's 1942, we can bag some of these people in infancy or their youth (like
> Lee Harvey Oswald etc).
This is a wonderful point. What about going further? Lets go
back to the time of Ferdinand and Isabella and take out Carninal
Torquemada. He's been responsible for an awful lot of destruction. And
which pope called the first crusade? Gotta get him too. For that matter,
they should take out Columbus' ship on the way to the new world -- stop
the genocied of the American Indian peoples. At the same time, maybe the
Aztec empire should be destroyed -- they practice human sacrafice, you
know. And how about . . .
As you can see, I can go on and on. But the point is, why just
save the interests of one segment of society, one interest group, if you
will.
I have a favorite character who is an American Indian spiritualist
and he would jump at the chance to travel back in time to throw back the
Europeans.
This really becomes a plot line for the characters to perhaps stop
a vengeful and driven NPC (of PC) from trying to massively alter history.
> At this point you are no longer playing superheroes. The characters have
> now set themselves up as Judge, Jury and Executioner, with the rational of
> 'the greater good' and 40 years of history as their moral standard. But,
> who are we (ie the PC) to make such judgements?
I don't know. I've seen PC's who believe they are Judge, Jury,
and Executioner.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 21:19:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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> As a GM of this game, I would be of the opinion that "It would be VERY VERY
> bad to kill Hitler" because of the changes in the timeline that would
> result, etc. Is this offensive to anyone? Does it sound like I have a
> Supremesist Agenda?
No. There is the possibility that, in the abscence of Hitler, a
greater evil arises that wins WW2 against the Allies.
> On the other hand, I would personally have a struggle with the decision if
> it were ever up to me to strangle little Adolf in the crib or let the
> monster grow up...
Then there's always the theory that, should a change be made to
history, the time stream will shift back into position and provide a
substitute -- nothing changes except the Nazis are crying, "Heil,
Hetzler!"
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 22:34:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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On Sun, 5 Oct 1997, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>
> > My arguemnt was simple: Where do we stop?
>
> That's part of the whole scenario -- part of the whole moral
> quandary.
And it caused such heated debate and stress that the GM, who was trying to
entertain people not educate them, dumped the plot.
> > We know that Hitler killed 6 million Jews, Slavs, gypsys and other
> > 'undesireables' so we kkill him. Then, since that was a justifiable act
> > (he is EVIL after all) we should go kill Stalin (because he will kill 20
> > million people in his purges). Do we then set our sights on Ho Chi Min,
> > Mao Tse Tung, J Edgar Hoover? If you are going to kill one man for the
> > greater good of all mankind, might as well start capping them all. Hell,
> > it's 1942, we can bag some of these people in infancy or their youth (like
> > Lee Harvey Oswald etc).
>
> This is a wonderful point. What about going further? Lets go
> back to the time of Ferdinand and Isabella and take out Carninal
> Torquemada. He's been responsible for an awful lot of destruction. And
> which pope called the first crusade? Gotta get him too. For that matter,
> they should take out Columbus' ship on the way to the new world -- stop
> the genocied of the American Indian peoples. At the same time, maybe the
> Aztec empire should be destroyed -- they practice human sacrafice, you
> know. And how about . . .
There is a SF story where a man perfects a time-travel device and goes
about eliminating every violent in human society. By the time he's done,
human live a pastoral vegitartian existance and don't have enough anger
within them to swat a fly. Naturally, they get annihilated by some
invading alien race.
> As you can see, I can go on and on. But the point is, why just
> save the interests of one segment of society, one interest group, if you
> will.
>
> I have a favorite character who is an American Indian spiritualist
> and he would jump at the chance to travel back in time to throw back the
> Europeans.
I think I brought this point up as well. Hitler kills 6 million people,
Stalin kills 20 million. From 1865 to about 1885, the US waged total war
vs the Indian with the elimination of the Indian people the desired out
come. Since we traveled back to 1942, we gonna go back to 1875 and start
killing US Army generals? There was also the "He who is without sin..."
angle there.
> This really becomes a plot line for the characters to perhaps stop
> a vengeful and driven NPC (of PC) from trying to massively alter history.
Which could be quite interesting. I just had trouble with the idea of
doing it as a scenario.
> > At this point you are no longer playing superheroes. The characters have
> > now set themselves up as Judge, Jury and Executioner, with the rational of
> > 'the greater good' and 40 years of history as their moral standard. But,
> > who are we (ie the PC) to make such judgements?
>
> I don't know. I've seen PC's who believe they are Judge, Jury,
> and Executioner.
Yeah, same here.
ANd then ther was the villain team of the same name. Jury even had
duplication (12 duplicates).
***************************************************************************
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* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 23:10:11 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 10:34 PM 10/5/97 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>I think I brought this point up as well. Hitler kills 6 million people,
>Stalin kills 20 million. From 1865 to about 1885, the US waged total war
>vs the Indian with the elimination of the Indian people the desired out
>come. Since we traveled back to 1942, we gonna go back to 1875 and start
>killing US Army generals? There was also the "He who is without sin..."
>angle there.
Logically, anyone who considers this course of action may very well find
himself the target of a similarly minded time traveller from further into
the future, whose taken note of HIS body count. :]
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 23:10:12 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
Cc: <champ-l@omg.org>
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At 11:12 PM 10/5/97 -0700, Scott S. wrote:
>Hey, I know, let's kill that meddler Einstein, and save the world from the
>horror of nuke's...
Except that killing Einstein probably would at best delay, not prevent, the
invention of nuclear weapons, and might tip the scales so *Germany* invents
them first. You return to a blasted radioactive wasteland surrounding the
Eternal Reich (only the U.S. and U.K. would probably actually be nuked into
dust, since Germany wanted to own Russia).
You know, this reminds me of a speculative fiction story I read once called
"Blood & Dust". It postulates two alien intelligences playing a game (of
the same name as the story) with Earth. Each has 3 "moves" consisting of
either sparing or killing a single individual in the time stream. The goal
is for the "Dust" player to destroy human civilization within his 3 moves,
without "Blood" stopping him.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 23:10:19 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 05:53 AM 10/5/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> And nobody's even brought up (at least directly, so far) the possibility
>that without Hitler in place, the Nazi Party might have come up led by
>someone even more vicious -- and with enough intelligence to actually win
>WWII.
Possible, but then again, this hypothetical UberFuhrer may actually have
*avoided* WWII (as we know it). Simple sandbox math dictates that when you
have 3 bigger boys around you, you don't pick a fight. Part of Hitler's
"incompetence" might have been his obsession with geopolitics, and the
belief that to control west-central Asia was the key to controlling the
world. A more competent leader may have been satisfied with France and
Eastern Europe, set up defensive lines, and sued for peace with Britain (and
never broken Germany's non-aggression pact with the Soviets).
And if you eliminate Adolf early enough, who's to say that the new Germany
will be Nazi at all? After all, Hitler brought more to the table than just
his ostensible incompetence -- he also brought an amazing ability to
manipulate people. The possibility exists that it REQUIRED a Hitler just to
sell the country on the Nazi party.
ObHERO: How do you GMs out there handle time travel, metaphysically, in your
campaigns? Is it POSSIBLE to change history? Have you ever had to deal
with paradoxes created by overzealous PCs? I'd like to hear some more
general time travel troubles.
I know the strangest adventure I ever had the pleasure to be a part of was a
time travel story (ironically enough, WWII) where one PC had the brilliant
idea to pass off our actions as those of existing Golden Age heroes. One
member, a brick named Anvil, sorta choked when he had to identify himself
during the adventure, and blurted that he was "Plymouth Rock!". Upon
returning, sure enough, there was now a record of the mystery man Plymouth
Rock in the history books.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams)
Date: 06 Oct 97 05:02:50 GMT
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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What is to say that after you the heros' kill some small multitude of
"villiens" that you become as bad as the scum you are executing. After all, if
Hitler killed 6 million, what does that make you when you have killed a few
thousand? Not as bad, or just a smaller mad killer?
You can rationalize all you want, but both are much the same, but.. Are they?
Especially if you kill the bad guy before he/she/it become "bad"?
Why not go back in history and try to "cure" the bad guy, instead of doing the
same thing as him/her/it?
Like in Hitlers case, move him to someplacw where his paintings could be sold.
After all, down deep Hitler was a painter, who cold not sell his okay paintings
cause in Vienna c.1930 there was thousands of starving artists just as good as
he. Or maybe even earlier.
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 22:33:35 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Vehicles and bases
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PopTholian@aol.com wrote:
>
>
> Our house rules:
>
> Destroyed Vehicles, Bases, and Duplicates and Foci
> can only return no more quickly than it would take to get the
> equivalent Body back via natural healing.
<IMHO>
For breakable foci: too harsh for most.
For unbreakable foci: too lenient and/or just wrong.
</IMHO>
For Duplicates, this directly violates the BBB. Any duplicate killed is
permanently lost. Of course, logically, a new duplicate can be purchased
at half price of the first.
<IHMO>The rule on duplicates is reasonable and necessary to avoid having
DupliHero split into two, one of whom remains in the Secret Chamber of
Safety. DupliHero is now virtually unkillable.</IMHO>
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 00:49:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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Subject: Re: GM question #1
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>
> What with the publication of Feng Shi and my current addiction to HK
> cinema, the same goes for me. Of course, anyone who watches anough HK
> flics will realize that you can shovel in all the angst and moral lessons
> you want... just add sufficent bullets.
>
This is very true. HK movies are often action dramas that also deal with
friendship, betrayal, angst, ect. I played in a Hong Kong Action Theatre
game at Gencon and enjoyed it quite a bit, though I'm likely to mainly use
it as source material most of the time. the movie guide in it is pretty
good.
I'm currently running a period kung fu campaign and knowing the players in
my campaign, I have them joining the school in town with the bad
reputation as trouble makers. I expected to have to provoke them a little,
but so far the PC's have been pretty willing to get into trouble. They've
vandelized the Red Banner school, gotten on good terms with the evil
magistrates (Which I loosely borrowed from Chinese Ghost Story), and
started spreading rumors about the Red Banner School being into all sorts
of vice operations.
It's shaping up to be an interesting and easy game to
GM:) I admit I borrowed the Red Banner from the books and made a few
changes, but for now they are the schol in town with the money and the
good rep. The PC's follow the 'Way of the Unrestricted Fist' and so far
from the Master have learned one basic technique, based on the three
principles: Motion, Contemplation, and Opposition. IE, if you are in
trouble, run away until you figure out a way to win;)
TokyoMark
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 23:01:30 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: question #1. ..
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jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>
> At 08:15 AM 10/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >> Well, one of my players at a later date accused me of trying to put
> >> forth my own views on animal experimentation. He also mentioned some
> >> other event in the campaign as another example of 'working my own
> >> agenda' but I can't recall what it was at this time.
> >
> >It's called writing. Show me a story, book, show that doesn't have at least
> >some questions of morality of agenda, and i'll show you a fairly boring
> >story.
> >Gilligan's island occasionally had morality plays. It's part of telling
> >stories.The unique thing role playing adds is allowing the characters to
> >really come form different moral points of view, and allowing the players
> >to really delve into what it means. This is excellent character development.
> >
>
> the problem arises when the gm's 'reality' rejects the pc's choices, even though real life rarely works that way. .
{Confused look}
How does the GM "accept" or "reject" the PC's choices? The GM sets up
the situation, the PC's react to it. If the campaign is gritty enough,
even the GM may not know a way out of the problem, but that doesn't mean
that the PCs can't think of one.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Reply-To: <scott2k@gte.net>
From: "Scott S." <scott2k@gte.net>
Cc: <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 23:12:12 -0700
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> This is a wonderful point. What about going further? Lets go
> back to the time of Ferdinand and Isabella and take out Carninal
> Torquemada. He's been responsible for an awful lot of destruction. And
> which pope called the first crusade? Gotta get him too. For that matter,
> they should take out Columbus' ship on the way to the new world -- stop
> the genocied of the American Indian peoples. At the same time, maybe the
> Aztec empire should be destroyed -- they practice human sacrafice, you
> know. And how about . . .
>
Hey, I know, let's kill that meddler Einstein, and save the world from the
horror of nuke's...
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 13:01:18 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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John Prins wrote:
>But I'm not going to penalize the person who buys 30rED by making
>him suffer if happens to need to trudge across the arctic tundra or Sahara
>desert (or rather, if he does suffer, he suffers a lot less than someone
>with only 5rED).
>
How about these examples:
Suit of armor (well... a Truly Badass suit of armor) with 30rED and
no Life Support: does it get a Limitation on its 30rED because it won't help
you from passing out due to heatstroke in the Sahara?
Kevlar Vest (again, a Truly Badass version) with 30rED, and an 8-
Activation. Does it get the same Limitation as above? Or does it still
work like LS: Heat (only with an 8- Activation)?
Personally, I think some specific rules for "environmental effects"
are needed, something akin to the Drowning Rules in the BBB. I'll try and
work on it.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 13:04:47 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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At 06:54 AM 10/6/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 04:13 PM 10/5/97 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>>I don't think I would play in your games. They are too limiting in their
>>scenarios.
>>
>>In this case, you are declaring that it is improper in a RPG to play out
>>the greatest of all human tragedies- antimony.
>
> Antimony isn't so tragic. I mean, sure, it doesn't conduct electricity
>all that well, but it's been very useful in castings, type metal, and ball
>bearings.
>
Well, they had the set-up for tragedy in the first Amalgam book, but
they rebooted for the second batch. So, the horrible scarring she probably
received was negated. eh. Magneto'd probably have fixed her, anyway.
- Jerry
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 00:12:00 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> Hm... now there's an interesting plotline. PCs go back and kill Hitler
> as a child, then return to find the world ruled by a Nazi regime. Then
> they have to go back and prevent themselves from killing Hitler.
I remember seeing a movie with a plot more or less like this. The heroes
have to sabotage a plot by German officers in 1944 to assassinate Hitler,
because at that point in the war Hitler's fanaticism was one of the
Allies' best advantages.
C-grade movie, IIRC.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
X-Sender: filkhero@pop.netaddress.com
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 01:10:52 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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At 09:10 PM 10/5/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
>F> By the arguments I have been hearing, the guy with "ground is lava" gets
>F> Affects Desolidified for free. Either that, or you have to explain exactly
>F> why regular lava does affect de solidified, but the villains lava doesn't.
>
>Wrong; I never said that.
You never said what, exactly? You have said, as best I can tell, that
natural lava can affect desolidified characters in some (unstated) fashion.
Does super power created lava have this ability, or not? What, exactly,
does this ability to affect desolidified characters do?
>What I said is that the *environmental* effects
>- -- the secondary effects if you would -- of those things can still harm a
>desolidified character if he does not have Life Support vs. extreme heat.
>Lava will not burn a desolidified character, but the intense heat could
>take him down if he is exposed to it for too long -- assuming that it is
>"real" lava and the attacks are bought as such instead of just short-lived
>"jets" -- just as it could anyone else.
So, attacks using lava that stays around, like real lava, will eventually
kill desolidified characters, even though the attacker didn't buy Affects
Desolid?
>F> If you buy enough of the proper defense, you gain effective immunity to
>F> environmental effects. A character with a 45 Energy Defense is immune to
>F> arctic winter,
>
>While buying lots of Energy Defense may protect one from the *damage*
>caused by some forms of bitter-cold attacks, it will not keep one warm, it
>will not prevent hypothermia, it will not prevent freezing to death due to
>prolonged exposure to such conditions.
Let me make something clear here. _In my campaign_, that is probably how I
would rule. However, no where in the _rulebook_ does it say this. There is
nothing in the BBB that states that extreme cold or heat do _anything_
beyond attack damage. Thus, this is my _house rule_, and therefore I cannot
simply declare it to be the way heat or cold are officially supposed to be
handled.
Furthermore, there is one thing we have been ignoring from the beginning.
If ED doesn't protect against cold, then what is a coat? If I decide I want
a character who is immune to cold up to a point, and resistant but not
immune for temperatures below that, then, by your ruling, there is no way
to do it. Only Life Support can protect him, and Life Support is all or
nothing.
I suggest that we _define_ environmental effects, before we declare them to
affect this character or that. So far, we haven't defined what the
environmental effects _are_ clearly, much less how much damage they do or
how it is defined. We are arguing about the effects of things not clearly
defined which are not covered in the rules.
We can do better than that.
Filksinger
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 01:25:18 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> > As a GM of this game, I would be of the opinion that "It would be VERY VERY
> > bad to kill Hitler" because of the changes in the timeline that would
> > result, etc. Is this offensive to anyone? Does it sound like I have a
> > Supremesist Agenda?
>
> No. There is the possibility that, in the abscence of Hitler, a
> greater evil arises that wins WW2 against the Allies.
>
> > On the other hand, I would personally have a struggle with the decision if
> > it were ever up to me to strangle little Adolf in the crib or let the
> > monster grow up...
>
> Then there's always the theory that, should a change be made to
> history, the time stream will shift back into position and provide a
> substitute -- nothing changes except the Nazis are crying, "Heil,
> Hetzler!"
And don't forget the completely objectively-based consequence that
changing history just might simply create a new branch of the timeline,
which the PCs would return to, but the 'established' timeline still
exists without them; i.e. they only are able to change *their own*
future, but all their family/friends etc. now exist in a seperate
timeline from the one they switched to....
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 01:37:05 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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Filksinger wrote:
>
> At 01:10 PM 9/28/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> >
> >But molten lava/core of the earth and arctic conditions/surface of an
> >atmosphereless planet *aren't* "minor" environmental effects. I could (if I
> >bothered) come up with SFX of Desolid to allow me to survive in these
> >environments. I just beleive that characters shouldn't get that for free.
> >Pay for the Life Support (even if it *is* Linked to the Desolid).
>
> All of this discussion is interesting, but it still doesn't solve the
> original problem. Consider two villains. Both have an RKA Radius Area
> Effect. One is defined as a "heat field", the other "the ground turns into
> lava".
>
> By the arguments I have been hearing, the guy with "ground is lava" gets
> Affects Desolidified for free. Either that, or you have to explain exactly
> why regular lava does affect de solidified, but the villains lava doesn't.
That's why I maintain that to a desolidified character, these two
attacks would be identical; the lava, being a physical object, would
pass right through the character, but (s)he would still be subject to
problems of ambient extreme heat, while the other attack would have the
exact same effect of ambient extreme heat.
The hangup seems to be that the BBB doesn't state clearly (aside from
mental powers) what effects are *not* negated by desolidification, but
there should be. If a character wants to be completely removed from
the physical plane (completely immune) it requires additional
powers/talents linked to basic desolidification. Just as with 4th ed.
growth; if you want add'l running to reflect your huge strides, you have
to buy it seperately - or more presence to reflect being huge and
intimidating. But if desolidification still requires air to breathe,
then there should be a category of powers or abilities (posibly under
the heading 'environmental effects') that universally affect all
characters with basic desolidification.
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 02:00:59 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Vehicles and bases
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Filksinger wrote:
>
> At 06:19 AM 9/28/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >
> >>In fact, If I chose to replace a follower via a quest, I think that I
> >>would make a special award of experience to be used to create a
> >>replacement follower, and leave the dead follower on the base character's
> >>sheet forever as a reminder.
> >
> > This is not unreasonable.
>
> Except, perhaps, in the case of entire agencies being your followers.
> Consider someone with an army of followers, who not only has to pay points
> to replace them, but who dramatically increases the size of their army to
> boot just to replace one follower. Then, keep track of every dead follower
> on the sheet is a bit unreasonable, if you have 1024 of them to begin with.
If someone has 1024 followers, I assume that there should be a writeup
somewhere about where they are all stationed, how they are trained and
equipped, etc. A count of "number killed in the line of duty" does not
seem an unreasonable amount of bookkeeping. Of course, in those sort
of quantities, it seems reasonable for 1 point to buy an additional 14%,
since 1.14 is approximately the fifth root of two, and restricting
oneself to powers of two seems silly, thus reserves are cheap.
>
> Filksinger
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 16:13:02 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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At 12:50 PM 10/6/97 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>At 12:47 PM 10/6/97 +0000, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>
>>For those who DIDN'T get the joke, the word should have been
>>"Antigone", not "antimony".
>
>AAAAAAUUUUGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!
>
>Antimony is the correct word. Antimony can be a silvery-white metal.
>Sometimes it is a legal term, meaning when two laws conflict. And
>_sometimes_ it is a (potentially tragic) conflict between two equally right
>propositions.
>
>Unfortunately, the last definition is rarely found in dictionaries. My 20
>pound Websters doesn't even mention the legal term.
>
Well, it wasn't in my American Heritage Dictionary, either. But,
two entries down from "antiMoNy" (my emphasis) is "antiNoMy" (again, my
emphasis).
antinomy - n. 1. An apparent contradiction between valid principles
or conclusions that seem equally necessary and reasonable. 2. A conflict,
opposition, or contradiction.
This seems to be the word you're describing. I'm not particularly
verbose, but I just stumbled upon it.
obHero: How many extra dice would a 20-lb Webster's give?
- Jerry
PS - as far as Antigone goes, I don't think she was in Amalgam. : )
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 06:13:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Judge, Jury and Executioner (was Re: GM question #1)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 27
On Sun, 5 Oct 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> >ANd then ther was the villain team of the same name. Jury even had
> >duplication (12 duplicates).
> >
> Are these guys a published team (comics or otherwise) of just the
> creation of a devious mind?
> Let's see... give Jury Enraged or Berserk and he's Twelve Angry Men.
> If Judge is crooked, he could have Vulnerability: 2x Effect from Bribes.
>
> Seriously, though, could you give more specifics on these characters?
They are the creation of someone in the local area. I don't remember much
about them (although I could find out). Lemme get back to you.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 16:24:04 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Rook wrote:
> I've been wondering how many people use Heromaker.
Myself and some of my players... that's at least four, right there.
>I'm putting together a website (albeit very slowly) and noticed on
>Bob Greewade's site he lists his house rules as a series of files to
>modify heromaker with.
Huh. Wonder how I missed all that on there. I'm gonna have to take
yet another close look at Mr. Greenwade's page.
> I myself use the program heavily, and I was wondering how many of
>us out there us it, and how many use other items.
> Is it widespread? Do people like it? Etc...?
I like it. I used to use my own format character sheet, done on
MSWord for Windows, but everything had to be input by hand (ugh). It's much
easier this way.
I though Hero was ditching it, though?
> I'm thinking of following Bob's format of putting up my mods
>to Heromaker.
I think it's a good idea. Your page has a good start. Keep it up.
- Jerry
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 06:38:31 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:09 PM 10/6/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote:
> I've been wondering how many people use Heromaker.
>
>I'm putting together a website (albeit very slowly) and noticed on
>Bob Greewade's site he lists his house rules as a series of files to
>modify heromaker with.
> I myself use the program heavily, and I was wondering how many of
>us out there us it, and how many use other items.
> Is it widespread? Do people like it? Etc...?
I quit using HeroMaker a week after I purchased Champions Deluxe (which is
where I got my copy). It's poorly documented and not very friendly to my
existing computer system, and I already have a WordPerfect template for
printing up characters in the format published books like Classic Enemies used.
I might switch to HM if I could find a decent way to print character sheets
that don't look like newspaper-clipping ransom notes. :/
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:47:54 +0000
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Reply-to: ghoyle1@airmail.net
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 45
> At 06:54 AM 10/6/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >At 04:13 PM 10/5/97 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
> >>I don't think I would play in your games. They are too limiting in their
> >>scenarios.
> >>
> >>In this case, you are declaring that it is improper in a RPG to play out
> >>the greatest of all human tragedies- antimony.
> >
> > Antimony isn't so tragic. I mean, sure, it doesn't conduct electricity
> >all that well, but it's been very useful in castings, type metal, and ball
> >bearings.
> >
> Well, they had the set-up for tragedy in the first Amalgam book, but
> they rebooted for the second batch. So, the horrible scarring she probably
> received was negated. eh. Magneto'd probably have fixed her, anyway.
>
> - Jerry
For those who DIDN'T get the joke, the word should have been
"Antigone", not "antimony".
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:01:08 -0400
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: subscribe tristanlink@earthlink.net
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 29
> X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
> From: Tristan Anderson <tristanlink@earthlink.net>
> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 17:39:16 -0700
> X-To: hero-l@october.com
> X-Listname: Hero
> Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero)
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>
>
>
> subscribe tristanlink@earthlink.net
>
>
>
Done.
Geoff Speare
OMG
geoff@omg.org
Pre-FAQ info:
This is information related to the Hero System email list.
PLEASE SAVE THIS INFORMATION! It tells you how to unsubscribe.
0) To UNSUBSCRIBE, send email to hero-request@omg.org. Please include
your email address and ask to be removed from the Hero System list.
1) hero-l@omg.org and champ-l@omg.org are the same list in all
respects.
2) The Hero System email list is an electronic mailing list for
discussion of all things related to the Hero System. It is not
officially affiliated with Hero Games or Hero Software in any way
(although employees of either may be subscribed).
3) The list is VERY HIGH VOLUME. An average of 50-100 messages per
/day/ are sent to the list. There is at present no "digest mode".
If this volume is too high, send email to hero-request@omg.org to
be taken off the list.
4) Any and all administrative issues (subscribing, switching accounts,
questions about the operation of the list, etc.) should be emailed
to hero-request@omg.org.
The Champions/Hero System
Points of Clarity List
Informational
This is the unofficial Champions/Hero System Points of Clarity List.
It is a resource of official and unofficial clarifications to many
commonly asked questions and ambiguous rules. The most current version
is available via the World Wide Web at
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/champions.html. A text version is
also available at
ftp://ftp.ccs.neu.edu/pub/people/ratinox/champ/champions.faq. If you
are incapable of anonymous ftp, you may request a copy from
ratinox@peorth.gweep.net.
The Red October BBS has gone on-line with a wealth of Champions
related material. There are also a number of Champions-related links
on Yahoo.
There are some Champions-related files at ftp.umd.umich.edu.
Finally, there is a mailing list for Champions related discussions.
All list administrivia should be sent to hero-request@omg.org (hero-l
and champ-l are the same mailing list, one address is an alias for the
other). It may take a few days for the administrator to add you to the
list, so please be patient.
Champions/HERO System
Champions is HERO Games' super hero role-playing game using the HERO
System. Champions and the HERO System are Trademarks of and Copyright
by Hero Games. This file is in no way meant to infringe against Hero
Games.
Now that the legal stuff is out of the way...
The HERO System is a universal role-playing system. It is a point
based system that allows creation of characters from any genre, of any
level of ability. Unlike many so-called "universal" games, Champions
is a "power based" game, rather than an "effect based" game. What this
means is that a lightning bolt spell, a blaster rifle, and a fiery
super hero's flame all use the same Power (Energy Blast in this
example), but the Special Effects define the ability and any
Advantages or Limitations it has.
Originally, Champions and the other HERO System games were published
separately, each rule book containing a complete reproduction of the
current edition of the rules. With the publication of the 4th edition
Champions Hard cover, all the rules are in one book, and individual
source books are published to cover various genres.
The HERO System Rulesbook is a reprinting of the majority of the 4th
edition hard cover, but without the super hero background and campaign
material. It contains the complete rules from the hard cover, and the
errata published in Adventurers Club #16. It also has a usable index
and costs $15 less than the hard cover.
There is now a softcover printing of the Champions book. It, like the
HERO System Rulesbook, contains the AC#16 errata.
Champions Deluxe is a reprinting of the entire 4th edition hardcover
(it is often listed as "version 4.2" of the rules), bundled with the
HeroMaker software. Champions Deluxe has a number of subtle changes
throughout, some of which contradict previous printings of the fourth
edition rules.
In any case where a discrepancy between various versions of the 4th
edition arise the most recent revision have been given preference.
Special Effects are of the utmost importance when defining mechanics.
Many of the answers here may not fit the special effects you require.
Remember, work from the effects backwards, and see what does work.
Generally, many problems and confusions may be solved by applying
these two rules of thumb:
* If you can create an effect using several different mechanics, the
one with the higher Active Cost is usually the most appropriate.
* If you can create an effect using an "unusual" Power to simulate
an existing Power, do not do it; use the existing Power instead.
As always, a bit of common sense should always prevail.
Points Of Clarity Summary
* Combat
+ Multiple Attacks
+ Use of Multiple Powers
+ Holding Actions
+ Aborting
+ Defensive Maneuvers
* Skills
+ Movement Skill Levels
* Powers
+ Duplication
+ Multiform
+ Flight
+ Absolute Powers
* Advantages
+ Advantages with Strength
+ Continuing Charges
+ Hardened
* Limitations
+ Gradual Effect
+ What is "Stun Only" worth?
* Miscellaneous
+ Move to rec.games.frp.(super-)hero(es)?
+ Rounding
+ Minimum Real Cost
_________________________________________________________________
Combat
Multiple Attacks
You may perform only one attack action during a Phase.
Use of Multiple Powers
You may simultaneously use as many powers as you have time, Endurance,
and framework point allocations to activate.
Whether or not you may use multiple powers simultaneously to make an
attack is a frequently argued issue. This issue is made more unclear
because various people at Hero Games have provided diametrically
opposed answers to the question. At this time, the "correct" answer is
"whatever the GM decides".
Note: if you do allow the use of several powers in a single attack,
the combination of powers should fit within the campaign guidelines.
If there is a 12DC maximum in the campaign, a character cannot
simultaneously use both his 4D6 RKA and his 12D6 EB at full power.
Holding Actions
According to Steve Peterson, you may hold your Segment 12 action into
Segment 1 of the next Turn. You do not lose your "free" post-Segment
12 recovery if you do.
Aborting
According to Steve Peterson, once you perform an action which ends
your action phase, you may not perform any additional actions during
that phase. This includes: moving more than half your movement,
dodging, blocking, aborting to a defensive action, or performing any
action that requires more than a half-Phase action to perform while
doing nothing else.
Defensive Maneuvers
Defensive maneuvers and the bonuses they provide remain in effect
until the start of your next Action Phase. If you abort to a defensive
action, your Action Phase starts at the point you begin the defensive
action.
_________________________________________________________________
Skills
Movement Skill Levels
Each skill level with a Movement power reduces that power's Turn Mode
by 1". Skill levels for 1 Movement cost 2 points per +1 and may only
be used in this manner for "controlled" movement (Running, Swimming,
Flight, Gliding). For "uncontrolled" movement (Leaping,
Teleportation), Movement Skill Levels may be used to affect your OCV
when you need to target a specific hex. Note: all vehicles have Turn
Modes for all controlled movement forms. Including Movement Skill
Levels in a vehicle will make it more maneuverable.
Optionally, Movement Skill Levels may be used to change your
Acceleration or Deceleration from the given 5"/inch moved. Each Skill
Level will allow you to increase your Acceleration or Deceleration by
1".
_________________________________________________________________
Powers
Duplication
Can you duplicate something that you have not paid ponts for, such as
the Crown Jewels? If not, then why do duplicates not appear naked?
(Credits for this answer go to John Kim
<khk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu&g>
Normally, you may not duplicate anything you haven't paid points for.
Special effects define how a particular character's duplication works.
One method, some form of biological cloning ability, would in fact not
duplicate any gadgets or clothing. A temporal fugeuing effect, calling
future selves to the present, may be able to duplicate whatever you
have handy. Or not, as you catch yourself in the shower (this is a -0
limitation special effect that a GM can have lots of fun with).
Also remember that anything you duplicate will disappear when the
duplicates recombine (or go home, or whatever).
If you really want to duplicate other things that provide powers, use
a Variable Power Pool with limitations which add up to "only to create
duplicates of non-living things." If you want to duplicate living
things, you'd better have a very good reason and effect for
Duplication, Usable By/Against Others.
Multiform
When a Multiform character earns experience, the points are added to
the base form's total. Note that all the forms are still one
character; a character with three forms does not earn three times the
experience as a single form character.
To "improve" a secondary form, the Multiform cost of the base form
must be increased with those experience points. This increases the
"base cost" of the secondary form. Or, you may instead opt to add a
"bonus disadvantage" to the secondary form's character sheet. Remember
that the total cost of the secondary forms cannot exceed the cost of
the base form minus the cost of the Multiform power.
Flight
You may lift as much as your Strength allows you to carry and still be
able to fly. Movement powers are not normally restricted by Strength
or how much one carries.
Absolute Powers
Drains, Suppresses, and Transfers only need to cover the minimum cost
of an "absolute-cost" Power in order to render it useless. Thus, no
matter how many Advantages you have on Desolid, you only have to
Drain, Suppress, or Transfer 40 Points of it to render it useless.
To Drain, Suppress, or otherwise adjust a Power or Characteristic that
has a specific number of points associated with it, you must Drain,
Suppress, or otherwise adjust the full point cost of one "increment".
Likewise, the victim does not regain the use of that "increment"
untili the full Active Point cost has been recovered.
_________________________________________________________________
Advantages
Advantages with Strength
According to Bruce Harlick, you apportion Strength among the base
Power and all Advantages. If you have a 1D6 HKA, Autofire, Armor
Piercing, and you have 20 Strength, you could increase the attack to a
maximum of 1.5D6, because you must pro-rate half of your Strength to
the two Advantages.
There are some exceptions, primarilly Reduced Endurance and Charges.
If your campaign lists other advantages as not increasing the Damage
Classes of a power, then these should probably be excluded as well.
Continuing Charges
To get a Continuous effect on a Power with Continuing Charges requires
the Power to be Continuous (either Constant or Persistent), or have
the Continuous Advantage. A napalm grenade would be a Ranged Killing
Attack, Area of Effect, Uncontrolled Continuous, with "n" Continuing
Charges of "x" duration.
Bruce "I'm Line Editor So I'm Right" Harlick sez:
A Continuous Attack Power requires that a character spend a
half-phase attack action to maintain the Power. He could make a
half-move, but could not make any full move maneuvers, nor could he
launch any other attacks. To be able to launch new attacks or do
full moves the Attack Power would also need to be Uncontrolled for
a total Advantage of +1 1/2.
To simulate attacks which "follow" the target, like poisons or drugs,
you need the Gradual Effect Limitation from Adventurer's Club #16 or
Fantasy Hero.
Hardened
Steve Peterson sez:
One level of Hardening cancels both one level of AP and one level
of Penetrating. Thus, a Penetrating AP attack against defense that
has been Hardened (at +1/4) is treated as the attack without
Penetrating or AP. A Penetrating Double AP attack would act as an
AP attack against that defense. Does that clear things up?
_________________________________________________________________
Limitations
Gradual Effect
A power with this limitation has its effect spread out over a period
of time. For example, a 6D6 Killing Attack with Gradual Effect 1 Hour
would do 1D6 KA every 10 minutes. The first increment of damage is
applied to the target immediately. [Note: there is a different version
of this modifier in the Hero System Almanac #1.]
Gradual Effect Time Limitation
1 Turn -1/2
1 Minute -1
5 Minutes -1 1/2
1 Hour -2
5 Hours -2 1/2
1 Day -3
1 Week -3 1/2
etc. etc.
The target of a Gradual Effect attack gets his defenses once. He takes
no damage from the attack until the cumulative damage of the attack
exceeds his defenses. In the example above, the target has 8 points of
resistant defense, and the dice roll 4 BODY when he gets hit and 5
BODY after 10 minutes, then 3, 1 and 6. He would take no BODY damage
initially and 1 BODY after 10 minutes since 9 BODY exceeds his
defenses. After that, he will continue taking the damage without any
more defense (it has already been applied to the attack).
Gradual Effect is usually used on a power with the NND or AVLD
Advantages, where the target takes all of the damage, or none of it.
What is "Stun Only" worth?
Nothing; the disadvantages of doing no Body damage or Knockback are balanced
by the fact that such a power does no collateral damage to the landscape nor
will it permanantly hurt innocent bystanders if you miss.
________________________________________________________________________
Miscellaneous
Move to rec.games.frp.(super-)hero(es)?
No. While there is greater participation in a Usenet newsgroup, there is also
quite a bit more "noise". You may discuss Champions all you want on the
superheroes' newsgroup, but the list will remain where and as it is.
Rounding
Rounding is for the "real" costs of a Characteristic or Power. You could get
1 point of COM for free, as it has a "real" cost of 1/2 CP per point of COM,
and you get the round-off. Body has a "real" cost of 1 CP per point of Body,
so you have to pay the full 2 points to get +1 Body.
Several Hero/Champions supplements have used some strange rounding methods
for calculating Stun from odd STR or CON. According to the main rulebooks,
the formula is (STR/2)u + (CON/2)u ("u" means "round up"). Minimum Real Cost
The minimum Real Cost of any Power, Characteristic, Skill, or whatever, is 1
point, regardless of rounding.
________________________________________________________________________
Copyright 1999 by Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Last modified: Mon Jan 13 12:49:51 1997
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:01:08 -0400
X-To: hero-l@october.com
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Subject: subscribe tristanlink@earthlink.net
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> From: Tristan Anderson <tristanlink@earthlink.net>
> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 17:39:16 -0700
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Done.
Geoff Speare
OMG
geoff@omg.org
Pre-FAQ info:
This is information related to the Hero System email list.
PLEASE SAVE THIS INFORMATION! It tells you how to unsubscribe.
0) To UNSUBSCRIBE, send email to hero-request@omg.org. Please include
your email address and ask to be removed from the Hero System list.
1) hero-l@omg.org and champ-l@omg.org are the same list in all
respects.
2) The Hero System email list is an electronic mailing list for
discussion of all things related to the Hero System. It is not
officially affiliated with Hero Games or Hero Software in any way
(although employees of either may be subscribed).
3) The list is VERY HIGH VOLUME. An average of 50-100 messages per
/day/ are sent to the list. There is at present no "digest mode".
If this volume is too high, send email to hero-request@omg.org to
be taken off the list.
4) Any and all administrative issues (subscribing, switching accounts,
questions about the operation of the list, etc.) should be emailed
to hero-request@omg.org.
The Champions/Hero System
Points of Clarity List
Informational
This is the unofficial Champions/Hero System Points of Clarity List.
It is a resource of official and unofficial clarifications to many
commonly asked questions and ambiguous rules. The most current version
is available via the World Wide Web at
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/champions.html. A text version is
also available at
ftp://ftp.ccs.neu.edu/pub/people/ratinox/champ/champions.faq. If you
are incapable of anonymous ftp, you may request a copy from
ratinox@peorth.gweep.net.
The Red October BBS has gone on-line with a wealth of Champions
related material. There are also a number of Champions-related links
on Yahoo.
There are some Champions-related files at ftp.umd.umich.edu.
Finally, there is a mailing list for Champions related discussions.
All list administrivia should be sent to hero-request@omg.org (hero-l
and champ-l are the same mailing list, one address is an alias for the
other). It may take a few days for the administrator to add you to the
list, so please be patient.
Champions/HERO System
Champions is HERO Games' super hero role-playing game using the HERO
System. Champions and the HERO System are Trademarks of and Copyright
by Hero Games. This file is in no way meant to infringe against Hero
Games.
Now that the legal stuff is out of the way...
The HERO System is a universal role-playing system. It is a point
based system that allows creation of characters from any genre, of any
level of ability. Unlike many so-called "universal" games, Champions
is a "power based" game, rather than an "effect based" game. What this
means is that a lightning bolt spell, a blaster rifle, and a fiery
super hero's flame all use the same Power (Energy Blast in this
example), but the Special Effects define the ability and any
Advantages or Limitations it has.
Originally, Champions and the other HERO System games were published
separately, each rule book containing a complete reproduction of the
current edition of the rules. With the publication of the 4th edition
Champions Hard cover, all the rules are in one book, and individual
source books are published to cover various genres.
The HERO System Rulesbook is a reprinting of the majority of the 4th
edition hard cover, but without the super hero background and campaign
material. It contains the complete rules from the hard cover, and the
errata published in Adventurers Club #16. It also has a usable index
and costs $15 less than the hard cover.
There is now a softcover printing of the Champions book. It, like the
HERO System Rulesbook, contains the AC#16 errata.
Champions Deluxe is a reprinting of the entire 4th edition hardcover
(it is often listed as "version 4.2" of the rules), bundled with the
HeroMaker software. Champions Deluxe has a number of subtle changes
throughout, some of which contradict previous printings of the fourth
edition rules.
In any case where a discrepancy between various versions of the 4th
edition arise the most recent revision have been given preference.
Special Effects are of the utmost importance when defining mechanics.
Many of the answers here may not fit the special effects you require.
Remember, work from the effects backwards, and see what does work.
Generally, many problems and confusions may be solved by applying
these two rules of thumb:
* If you can create an effect using several different mechanics, the
one with the higher Active Cost is usually the most appropriate.
* If you can create an effect using an "unusual" Power to simulate
an existing Power, do not do it; use the existing Power instead.
As always, a bit of common sense should always prevail.
Points Of Clarity Summary
* Combat
+ Multiple Attacks
+ Use of Multiple Powers
+ Holding Actions
+ Aborting
+ Defensive Maneuvers
* Skills
+ Movement Skill Levels
* Powers
+ Duplication
+ Multiform
+ Flight
+ Absolute Powers
* Advantages
+ Advantages with Strength
+ Continuing Charges
+ Hardened
* Limitations
+ Gradual Effect
+ What is "Stun Only" worth?
* Miscellaneous
+ Move to rec.games.frp.(super-)hero(es)?
+ Rounding
+ Minimum Real Cost
_________________________________________________________________
Combat
Multiple Attacks
You may perform only one attack action during a Phase.
Use of Multiple Powers
You may simultaneously use as many powers as you have time, Endurance,
and framework point allocations to activate.
Whether or not you may use multiple powers simultaneously to make an
attack is a frequently argued issue. This issue is made more unclear
because various people at Hero Games have provided diametrically
opposed answers to the question. At this time, the "correct" answer is
"whatever the GM decides".
Note: if you do allow the use of several powers in a single attack,
the combination of powers should fit within the campaign guidelines.
If there is a 12DC maximum in the campaign, a character cannot
simultaneously use both his 4D6 RKA and his 12D6 EB at full power.
Holding Actions
According to Steve Peterson, you may hold your Segment 12 action into
Segment 1 of the next Turn. You do not lose your "free" post-Segment
12 recovery if you do.
Aborting
According to Steve Peterson, once you perform an action which ends
your action phase, you may not perform any additional actions during
that phase. This includes: moving more than half your movement,
dodging, blocking, aborting to a defensive action, or performing any
action that requires more than a half-Phase action to perform while
doing nothing else.
Defensive Maneuvers
Defensive maneuvers and the bonuses they provide remain in effect
until the start of your next Action Phase. If you abort to a defensive
action, your Action Phase starts at the point you begin the defensive
action.
_________________________________________________________________
Skills
Movement Skill Levels
Each skill level with a Movement power reduces that power's Turn Mode
by 1". Skill levels for 1 Movement cost 2 points per +1 and may only
be used in this manner for "controlled" movement (Running, Swimming,
Flight, Gliding). For "uncontrolled" movement (Leaping,
Teleportation), Movement Skill Levels may be used to affect your OCV
when you need to target a specific hex. Note: all vehicles have Turn
Modes for all controlled movement forms. Including Movement Skill
Levels in a vehicle will make it more maneuverable.
Optionally, Movement Skill Levels may be used to change your
Acceleration or Deceleration from the given 5"/inch moved. Each Skill
Level will allow you to increase your Acceleration or Deceleration by
1".
_________________________________________________________________
Powers
Duplication
Can you duplicate something that you have not paid ponts for, such as
the Crown Jewels? If not, then why do duplicates not appear naked?
(Credits for this answer go to John Kim
<khk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu&g>
Normally, you may not duplicate anything you haven't paid points for.
Special effects define how a particular character's duplication works.
One method, some form of biological cloning ability, would in fact not
duplicate any gadgets or clothing. A temporal fugeuing effect, calling
future selves to the present, may be able to duplicate whatever you
have handy. Or not, as you catch yourself in the shower (this is a -0
limitation special effect that a GM can have lots of fun with).
Also remember that anything you duplicate will disappear when the
duplicates recombine (or go home, or whatever).
If you really want to duplicate other things that provide powers, use
a Variable Power Pool with limitations which add up to "only to create
duplicates of non-living things." If you want to duplicate living
things, you'd better have a very good reason and effect for
Duplication, Usable By/Against Others.
Multiform
When a Multiform character earns experience, the points are added to
the base form's total. Note that all the forms are still one
character; a character with three forms does not earn three times the
experience as a single form character.
To "improve" a secondary form, the Multiform cost of the base form
must be increased with those experience points. This increases the
"base cost" of the secondary form. Or, you may instead opt to add a
"bonus disadvantage" to the secondary form's character sheet. Remember
that the total cost of the secondary forms cannot exceed the cost of
the base form minus the cost of the Multiform power.
Flight
You may lift as much as your Strength allows you to carry and still be
able to fly. Movement powers are not normally restricted by Strength
or how much one carries.
Absolute Powers
Drains, Suppresses, and Transfers only need to cover the minimum cost
of an "absolute-cost" Power in order to render it useless. Thus, no
matter how many Advantages you have on Desolid, you only have to
Drain, Suppress, or Transfer 40 Points of it to render it useless.
To Drain, Suppress, or otherwise adjust a Power or Characteristic that
has a specific number of points associated with it, you must Drain,
Suppress, or otherwise adjust the full point cost of one "increment".
Likewise, the victim does not regain the use of that "increment"
untili the full Active Point cost has been recovered.
_________________________________________________________________
Advantages
Advantages with Strength
According to Bruce Harlick, you apportion Strength among the base
Power and all Advantages. If you have a 1D6 HKA, Autofire, Armor
Piercing, and you have 20 Strength, you could increase the attack to a
maximum of 1.5D6, because you must pro-rate half of your Strength to
the two Advantages.
There are some exceptions, primarilly Reduced Endurance and Charges.
If your campaign lists other advantages as not increasing the Damage
Classes of a power, then these should probably be excluded as well.
Continuing Charges
To get a Continuous effect on a Power with Continuing Charges requires
the Power to be Continuous (either Constant or Persistent), or have
the Continuous Advantage. A napalm grenade would be a Ranged Killing
Attack, Area of Effect, Uncontrolled Continuous, with "n" Continuing
Charges of "x" duration.
Bruce "I'm Line Editor So I'm Right" Harlick sez:
A Continuous Attack Power requires that a character spend a
half-phase attack action to maintain the Power. He could make a
half-move, but could not make any full move maneuvers, nor could he
launch any other attacks. To be able to launch new attacks or do
full moves the Attack Power would also need to be Uncontrolled for
a total Advantage of +1 1/2.
To simulate attacks which "follow" the target, like poisons or drugs,
you need the Gradual Effect Limitation from Adventurer's Club #16 or
Fantasy Hero.
Hardened
Steve Peterson sez:
One level of Hardening cancels both one level of AP and one level
of Penetrating. Thus, a Penetrating AP attack against defense that
has been Hardened (at +1/4) is treated as the attack without
Penetrating or AP. A Penetrating Double AP attack would act as an
AP attack against that defense. Does that clear things up?
_________________________________________________________________
Limitations
Gradual Effect
A power with this limitation has its effect spread out over a period
of time. For example, a 6D6 Killing Attack with Gradual Effect 1 Hour
would do 1D6 KA every 10 minutes. The first increment of damage is
applied to the target immediately. [Note: there is a different version
of this modifier in the Hero System Almanac #1.]
Gradual Effect Time Limitation
1 Turn -1/2
1 Minute -1
5 Minutes -1 1/2
1 Hour -2
5 Hours -2 1/2
1 Day -3
1 Week -3 1/2
etc. etc.
The target of a Gradual Effect attack gets his defenses once. He takes
no damage from the attack until the cumulative damage of the attack
exceeds his defenses. In the example above, the target has 8 points of
resistant defense, and the dice roll 4 BODY when he gets hit and 5
BODY after 10 minutes, then 3, 1 and 6. He would take no BODY damage
initially and 1 BODY after 10 minutes since 9 BODY exceeds his
defenses. After that, he will continue taking the damage without any
more defense (it has already been applied to the attack).
Gradual Effect is usually used on a power with the NND or AVLD
Advantages, where the target takes all of the damage, or none of it.
What is "Stun Only" worth?
Nothing; the disadvantages of doing no Body damage or Knockback are balanced
by the fact that such a power does no collateral damage to the landscape nor
will it permanantly hurt innocent bystanders if you miss.
________________________________________________________________________
Miscellaneous
Move to rec.games.frp.(super-)hero(es)?
No. While there is greater participation in a Usenet newsgroup, there is also
quite a bit more "noise". You may discuss Champions all you want on the
superheroes' newsgroup, but the list will remain where and as it is.
Rounding
Rounding is for the "real" costs of a Characteristic or Power. You could get
1 point of COM for free, as it has a "real" cost of 1/2 CP per point of COM,
and you get the round-off. Body has a "real" cost of 1 CP per point of Body,
so you have to pay the full 2 points to get +1 Body.
Several Hero/Champions supplements have used some strange rounding methods
for calculating Stun from odd STR or CON. According to the main rulebooks,
the formula is (STR/2)u + (CON/2)u ("u" means "round up"). Minimum Real Cost
The minimum Real Cost of any Power, Characteristic, Skill, or whatever, is 1
point, regardless of rounding.
________________________________________________________________________
Copyright 1999 by Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Last modified: Mon Jan 13 12:49:51 1997
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 06:49:04 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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At 12:49 AM 10/6/97 -0500, Tokyo Mark wrote:
>It's shaping up to be an interesting and easy game to
>GM:) I admit I borrowed the Red Banner from the books and made a few
>changes, but for now they are the schol in town with the money and the
>good rep. The PC's follow the 'Way of the Unrestricted Fist' and so far
>from the Master have learned one basic technique, based on the three
>principles: Motion, Contemplation, and Opposition. IE, if you are in
>trouble, run away until you figure out a way to win;)
Sounds to me like a good basic tactic.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 06:54:48 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 04:13 PM 10/5/97 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>I don't think I would play in your games. They are too limiting in their
>scenarios.
>
>In this case, you are declaring that it is improper in a RPG to play out
>the greatest of all human tragedies- antimony.
Antimony isn't so tragic. I mean, sure, it doesn't conduct electricity
all that well, but it's been very useful in castings, type metal, and ball
bearings.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 07:08:32 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: In defense of Shape Shift (was: CHAR: The Saint)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:44 PM 10/5/97 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>The second use is based upon my poor memory. I cannot find my BBB, as I
>just moved, so I have to do this based upon memory.
>
>In the BBB, it states that you need Disguise to use Shapeshift to copy a
>person. I don't believe it says that you need to roll. If it does, assume a
>base roll is sufficient for a perfect copy.
I just checked, and you are correct, sir. In fact, Shapeshift doesn't
even have to take Disguse as a Required Skill Roll.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:22:02 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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>Furthermore, there is one thing we have been ignoring from the beginning.
>If ED doesn't protect against cold, then what is a coat? If I decide I want
>a character who is immune to cold up to a point, and resistant but not
>immune for temperatures below that, then, by your ruling, there is no way
>to do it. Only Life Support can protect him, and Life Support is all or
>nothing.
>
>I suggest that we _define_ environmental effects, before we declare them to
>affect this character or that. So far, we haven't defined what the
>environmental effects _are_ clearly, much less how much damage they do or
>how it is defined. We are arguing about the effects of things not clearly
>defined which are not covered in the rules.
Thank you, Filksinger! Yes, the _effects_ of lava should first be defined
before we yammer on about whether or not just rED is sufficient for defense.
Let's crack open our BBB and turn to page S44-S45 "Living in a Dangerous
World". Your average, run-of-the-mill molten metal (best approximation to
lava I can see) is rated as a 4D6 RKA, combined with a 12D6 Physical Normal
attack (from what? pressure? Throwing it at somebody?). Anyway, no mention
of 'extreme heat NNDs' or 'affects desolid' attack portions. Molten metal
doesn't need that to kill off somebody. It doesn't _have_ 'environmental'
damage - it does that damage directly through a RKA. If I can ignore the
RKA, I certainly should be able to ignore the SFX of 'extreme heat'.
As a GM, I'd model any environmental effect as an attack that appropriate
levels of PD, ED, rPD or rED could defend against. Yes, having the specific
Life Support would remove any need for piles of PD/ED in a cheap manner
(let's face it, for 9 points, no Brick-type should be without LS vs all
extremes). But I'm not going to penalize the person who buys 30rED by making
him suffer if happens to need to trudge across the arctic tundra or Sahara
desert (or rather, if he does suffer, he suffers a lot less than someone
with only 5rED).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 07:35:33 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Vehicles and bases
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At 10:33 PM 10/5/97 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
><IHMO>The rule on duplicates is reasonable and necessary to avoid having
>DupliHero split into two, one of whom remains in the Secret Chamber of
>Safety. DupliHero is now virtually unkillable.</IMHO>
On the other hand, you could use this tactic with Video Game Man, who
had Duplication with 3 Charges per day and a base form unable to leave his
Secret Chamber of Safety. He can't be permanently killed (unless someone
breaks into the SCC, which could be a scenario in itself), but he can go
out and adventure and be "killed" up to three times a day.
Whimsical, but conceivable if you ignore the "Dead Duplicates can't
return" rule.
---
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X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 21:12:27 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Thunderbolts Write-ups?
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Thanks for the hand! There are a few comments I have, and I'll
address those as I go!
Anthony Jackson wrote: (editing by me)
>Citizen V
>Sword: 1.5d6 HKA, 0 END, OAF; 3d6+1 with martial strike.
Yeah, I think that would let him take off a robot's head with a called head
shot. And slice through guns on a regular basis.
>Comments: Kurt Busiek has made a point of his speed and tactical abilities;
>aside from this I generally felt that Sam's writeups tend to do a bit too much
>damage.
I'll tend to agree with your assessment here. Do you think Citizen V's
costume may provide extra defense? TB#2 has his shoulder pads deflecting an
EB from the Mad Thinker-bot. Armor with Activation?
>Techno:
>Powers: +18/+18 armor (OIF), 60 pt VPP, change as a zero phase action.
>This is pre 'robo-techno', about which we have very little information. At a
>guess, remove the OIF from all his powers, and increase strength, con, and
>body.
Yeah, I don't know about that Techno-bot, either. I never could figure out
Mental control of machines... Would you drop the fact that Techno's new
face is an illusion into the VPP? And is it really an OIF? Fixer kept it
under a jacket (or possibly *made* it into a jacket) by reconfiguring it (TB
#5).
As I mentioned, I could never do Mental control of machines... should I add
a Transfer v. Technology (like when he absorbed all those blasters)?
>Meteorite:
I didn't really see any problems with your write up here. Good job! And I
think Busiek may be ignoring her Desolid... maybe he took the points and
put them in her STR. : )
>Atlas:
>STR 25 DEX 20 CON 23 BOD 15 INT 10 EGO 10
>PRE 20 COM 12
>PD 10 ED 10 SPD 4 REC 10 END 46 STN 40
>Powers: +10 levels growth, 0 END, persistent, can only turn on/off at one level
>per phase. Linked powers: +2" running per level of growth, +2 PD/ED armor per
>level of growth, +2 PRE per level of growth, +2 CON per level of growth, +1
>PD/ED per level of growth(4 of the ED is from con). Physical limitation: -1
>DEX per level of growth (doesn't affect DCV, more than it already is reduced).
>At maximum size, he has STR 75, DEX 10, CON 43, BOD 25, PD 20+20, ED 20+20, REC
>14, END 86, STN 60, OCV 3+, DCV 1+.
>Note: quite a bit less powerful than the old Goliath -- he's supposedly a
>relatively normal human now if he's not grown, so I'm possibly being generous
>giving him the stats I did, but I wanted him to be substantially stronger than
>Meteorite.
This guy... gave me the *biggest* headache. I need to sit down with some
paper and figure out what he gets at each level... what his power level is
at each height. I'm not sure his true upper limit, as he said he might
dissipate if he gets too big (and wind up in the Kronos dimension or wherever).
And, of course, we aren't sure how tough he is normally... but it looks good.
>Mach-1
>STR 15 DEX 20 CON 19 BOD 12 INT 18 EGO 13
>PRE 18 COM 10
>PD 5 ED 5 SPD 5 REC 7 END 38 STN 30
>Inventor 13-, mechanic 11-, electronics 11-, scientist; SC: metallurgy,
>aeronautics, computer design, motors. +2 overall levels, +1 flight level.
>+15 STR, no figs. 30" flight, x16 NCM (slightly over mach 1). Armor: +20/+20,
>OIF. Multipower: 8d6 autofire EB (128 charges), 10d6 explosion (32 charges),
>6d6 NND explosion(16 charges), 12d6 EB(0 END), possibly others.
>Not confident on exactly what weaponry he has.
Well, your Autofire EB would be the "Mercy Bullets," the 10d6 Exp is the
rockets (although they were heat-seeking in the Incredible Hulk appearance),
the NND those balls he used on the Wrecking Crew (although possibly AE: Hex,
Autofire...), and the EB is... that generic EB he throws around. You're
right. Not much to go on.
I would be hesitant about giving him OIF on his stuff. The EoD didn't take
it away from him, and I think that argues for OIHID.
>Songbird
>Powers: flight 15", force field +10/+10, MP: 14d6 EB, +14/+14 force wall, 45
>STR TK, 10d6 explosion -- all powers at half END cost. VPP 20 -- minor 'force
>wall' effects. All these powers are OIF harness, but she might retain a bit of
>power without it.
I think I would've tossed everything but the Flight into a sizable VPP, with
no OIF. Again, the EoD didn't take it, and she didn't even take it off in
Secret ID. I think it may be part of her, and just SFX and maybe a
Distinctive Feature (ECon). She has not only used an EB, but also an RKA,
and once Autofire RKA (although it was in the Hulk appearance).
>Note: she really hasn't shown any evidence of her boosting from the power
>broker recently (or of her pro wrestler training), but I chose not to remove
>it. I don't think she still has her old sonic powers.
I would say she doesn't have the old powers. She ruptured her vocal cords
when Angus died, and they had to be rebuilt. All her powers come from the
harness, it's Klaw's tech, and (like I said) it was probably a surgical
implant. Maybe Techno should have an appropriate medical skill... or cramming.
Also, her STR and CON may not be as high as before. In TB '97,
Angus told her she was losing some weight... that's why she's so thin looking.
And Jolt... as I said before, time is crucial to me right now, and I'll
post my own interpretations (taking yours into account!) as soon as I can.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 21:15:35 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>On Mon, 6 Oct 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>
>> antinomy - n. 1. An apparent contradiction between valid principles
>> or conclusions that seem equally necessary and reasonable. 2. A conflict,
>> opposition, or contradiction.
>
>I thought that was alimony.
>
No, that's what you have to pay your ex-wife when you get divorced.
It's called that because she takes (try and say it out loud) ALL-YI-MONY.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 21:35:34 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 02:01 PM 10/6/97 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>At 04:13 PM 10/6/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>> Well, it wasn't in my American Heritage Dictionary, either. But,
>>two entries down from "antiMoNy" (my emphasis) is "antiNoMy" (again, my
>>emphasis).
>> antinomy - n. 1. An apparent contradiction between valid principles
>>or conclusions that seem equally necessary and reasonable. 2. A conflict,
>>opposition, or contradiction.
>> This seems to be the word you're describing. I'm not particularly
>>verbose, but I just stumbled upon it.
>>
>>obHero: How many extra dice would a 20-lb Webster's give?
>>
>
>Thank you. Now I understand why no one could find this word. I knew it was
>obscure (which is unfortunate for such profound and necessary word), but I
>thought that _someone_ (at least a dictionary) would know it.
>
After I sent this out, I became worried that I came off like a
little know-it-all dink. Thanks for not getting upset.
Also, (getting back to your original point) how is this the most
tragic of all scenarios? Could you perhaps toss me an example?
- Jerry
And I still don't have the stats for a 20-lb Webster's...
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:21:45 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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>
> > This is a wonderful point. What about going further? Lets go
> > back to the time of Ferdinand and Isabella and take out Carninal
> > Torquemada. He's been responsible for an awful lot of destruction. And
> > which pope called the first crusade? Gotta get him too. For that matter,
> > they should take out Columbus' ship on the way to the new world -- stop
> > the genocied of the American Indian peoples. At the same time, maybe the
> > Aztec empire should be destroyed -- they practice human sacrafice, you
> > know. And how about . . .
> >
> Hey, I know, let's kill that meddler Einstein, and save the world from the
> horror of nuke's...
>
You guys aren't thinking big enough. :)
Get the guy who invented the bow and arrow. :)
Course, in any realistic game, that would be hundreds of trips to
several places on the globe...
Imagine a world where Julius Ceasar had been 'killed by a stray arrow'
years before the time he was assassinated in the senate...
Or where the Trojan Horse had been revealed before it got in the
gates. Or where Gengis Khan had a riding accident in his youth.
Get the people who invented gunpowder in China...
In my gaming I tend to do paradox as not changing the past as done,
but the future to be.
Sort of like this:
I come from the year 2200 and go to 1800 and change something.
Everything that happened from the original 1800 (1800A) to the original
2200 (2200A) actually happened, but then it's as if somebody hit the
rewind and replay button, so that following 2200A we suddenly find time at
1800B. This way no-one from timeline A ceases to exist, though their universe
ends at 2200B. If for some reason they were not at that point, or managed
to time-escape, they could continue to live.
In this way a person returning from a time travel trip at 1800A,
returns to 2200B, where there may very well be a copy of them already
present.
They could possible get to 2200A again if they had the ability to
cross dimensions other than just time.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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Date: 06 Oct 1997 13:10:03 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
F> Let me make something clear here. _In my campaign_, that is probably how
F> I would rule. However, no where in the _rulebook_ does it say
F> this. There is nothing in the BBB that states that extreme cold or heat
F> do _anything_ beyond attack damage.
Try looking under "Life Support."
[...]
F> Furthermore, there is one thing we have been ignoring from the
F> beginning. If ED doesn't protect against cold, then what is a coat?
A heavy coat will provide you with two powers: some extremely limited
armor, maybe one or two points worth; and some limited Life Support
vs. Extreme Cold, enough to keep you going for a few hours.
F> If I decide I want a character who is immune to cold up to a point, and
F> resistant but not immune for temperatures below that, then, by your
F> ruling, there is no way to do it. Only Life Support can protect him, and
F> Life Support is all or nothing.
That is the way things work in a four-color world.
In a more realistic campaign you should sit down with the players before
their characters ever enter play and decide if there are extremes that will
exceed their survival capacities and what they are. Once you have done
that you can decide if any Limitation bonuses are in order, or if they fall
under the "-0 SFX Limitation" category. Then you can be fair about
enforcing the limits.
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
\
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:27:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thunderbolts Write-ups?
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 46
Jeremiah Driscoll writes:
> Did anyone do these? It's quite possibly my most fav book, and I've
> thought about it myself. Of course, I'd probably just modify Sam Bell's
> stuff... or other stuff that had been done. Use the tools before you, and
> all.
There haven't been any serious posts of MU characters recently, so no. It
wouldn't be too difficult to write them up, though. Capsule writeups (these
are based on Sam Bell's except where I disagree or where they seem to have
changed).
Citizen V
STR 20 DEX 26 CON 18 BOD 15 INT 18 EGO 20
PRE 23 COM 2
PD 10 ED 10 SPD 6 REC 8 END 36 STN 34
breakfall 13-, bureaucratics 13-, interrogation 13-, oratory 13-, tactics 13-,
mechanics 11-, electronics 11-, +3 levels overall, 4 pts english, 4 pts spanish
(german native).
Martial arts: karate, fencing. Martial strike, offensive strike, block,
disarm, dodge. +2 damage classes; use MA with swords.
Sword: 1.5d6 HKA, 0 END, OAF; 3d6+1 with martial strike.
Comments: Kurt Busiek has made a point of his speed and tactical abilities;
aside from this I generally felt that Sam's writeups tend to do a bit too much
damage.
Techno:
STR 15 DEX 14 CON 15 BOD 12 INT 28 EGO 13
PRE 15 COM 10
PD 8 ED 8 SPD 4 REC 6 END 30 STN 28
Bugging 15-, Computer programming 15-, inventor 18-, mechanics 14-, electronics
11-, +1 level overall.
Powers: +18/+18 armor (OIF), 60 pt VPP, change as a zero phase action.
This is pre 'robo-techno', about which we have very little information. At a
guess, remove the OIF from all his powers, and increase strength, con, and
body.
Meteorite:
STR 60 DEX 23 CON 28 BOD 12 INT 18 EGO 18
PRE 20 COM 20
PD 28 ED 28 SPD 5 REC 18 END 56 STN 56
Paramedic 13-, psychiatry 14-, persuasion 13-, oratory 13-, SC: hallucinogens
11-, hypnotism 11-, psychology 14-, +2 levels overall
Powers: instant change (any clothes), 30" flight, desolid, damage resistance
+10/+20, multipower w/14d6 EB, 9d6 explosion, 4d6 flash explosion, +2d6 HA.
Note: OHTMU gives moonstone roughly spider-man level strength, but given that
she was manhandling a 747 recently (and has generally shown more tendency to
punch things rather than blasting them) her strength has probably increased.
Hasn't used desolid in the T-bolts, but no particular evidence she's lost the
ability.
Atlas:
STR 25 DEX 20 CON 23 BOD 15 INT 10 EGO 10
PRE 20 COM 12
PD 10 ED 10 SPD 4 REC 10 END 46 STN 40
PS: smuggling 11-, concealment 11-, bribery 13-, +2 level HTH.
Powers: +10 levels growth, 0 END, persistent, can only turn on/off at one level
per phase. Linked powers: +2" running per level of growth, +2 PD/ED armor per
level of growth, +2 PRE per level of growth, +2 CON per level of growth, +1
PD/ED per level of growth(4 of the ED is from con). Physical limitation: -1
DEX per level of growth (doesn't affect DCV, more than it already is reduced).
At maximum size, he has STR 75, DEX 10, CON 43, BOD 25, PD 20+20, ED 20+20, REC
14, END 86, STN 60, OCV 3+, DCV 1+.
Note: quite a bit less powerful than the old Goliath -- he's supposedly a
relatively normal human now if he's not grown, so I'm possibly being generous
giving him the stats I did, but I wanted him to be substantially stronger than
Meteorite.
Mach-1
STR 15 DEX 20 CON 19 BOD 12 INT 18 EGO 13
PRE 18 COM 10
PD 5 ED 5 SPD 5 REC 7 END 38 STN 30
Inventor 13-, mechanic 11-, electronics 11-, scientist; SC: metallurgy,
aeronautics, computer design, motors. +2 overall levels, +1 flight level.
+15 STR, no figs. 30" flight, x16 NCM (slightly over mach 1). Armor: +20/+20,
OIF. Multipower: 8d6 autofire EB (128 charges), 10d6 explosion (32 charges),
6d6 NND explosion(16 charges), 12d6 EB(0 END), possibly others.
Not confident on exactly what weaponry he has.
Songbird
STR 30 DEX 23 CON 23 BOD 12 INT 10 EGO 8
PRE 18 COM 20
PD 15 ED 15 SPD 5 REC 11 END 46 STN 39
PS: singer 11-, wrestler 11-. Breakfall 14-. MA: throw, escape, grab, choke,
block. Perfect pitch.
Powers: flight 15", force field +10/+10, MP: 14d6 EB, +14/+14 force wall, 45
STR TK, 10d6 explosion -- all powers at half END cost. VPP 20 -- minor 'force
wall' effects. All these powers are OIF harness, but she might retain a bit of
power without it.
Note: she really hasn't shown any evidence of her boosting from the power
broker recently (or of her pro wrestler training), but I chose not to remove
it. I don't think she still has her old sonic powers.
X-Sender: moriarty@mail.mhonline.net
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 14:04:54 -0400
From: "Jason D. Hendricks" <moriarty@mhonline.net>
Subject: NEW TOPIC: Favorite Campaign / Storyline / Hero/ Villain
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 47
Hey all. Thanks for everyone's opinions on the Desolidification issue.
Eventually I ruled that the PC (who has a Desolidification) would be
effected by a number of environment conditions, but their effects for the
most part are greatly reduced. I won't go into the mechanics unless anyone
is partcularly interested (email me privately)...
NEW TOPIC: What was your favorite campaign or storyline? (RPG stories, not
comic book, though stuff imitated from comics should probably be included).
The same goes for your favorite hero or villain?
-J
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: Re: Vehicles and bases
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 14:46:34 -0400
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Bob G said:
>On the other hand, you could use this tactic with Video Game Man, who
>had Duplication with 3 Charges per day and a base form unable to leave
>his Secret Chamber of Safety. He can't be permanently killed (unless
>someone breaks into the SCC, which could be a scenario in itself), but
>he can go out and adventure and be "killed" up to three times a day.
You've been reading about Gorf, the Living Video Game again, haven't
you? Try http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/1905/haym06c.html
Dave Mattingly
X-Sender: filkhero@pop.netaddress.com
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 12:45:51 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:10 PM 10/6/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
>F> Let me make something clear here. _In my campaign_, that is probably how
>F> I would rule. However, no where in the _rulebook_ does it say
>F> this. There is nothing in the BBB that states that extreme cold or heat
>F> do _anything_ beyond attack damage.
>
>Try looking under "Life Support."
Under Life Support in my BBB, it says nothing about damage from extreme
heat or cold, save that it exists. It certainly doesn't say that it has
other effects beyond those described for those conditions elsewhere.
>[...]
>
>F> Furthermore, there is one thing we have been ignoring from the
>F> beginning. If ED doesn't protect against cold, then what is a coat?
>
>A heavy coat will provide you with two powers: some extremely limited
>armor, maybe one or two points worth; and some limited Life Support
>vs. Extreme Cold, enough to keep you going for a few hours.
Possible, but a bit cludgy. It isn't covered either way in the BBB, except
when damage is described in dice done, when armor would work.
As a house rule, I would probably declare that _extreme_ heat and cold had
long-term, slow Penetration (the cold seeping in, the heat slowly rising),
and an NND stopped by not breathing (from breathing extremely hot and cold
air). Thus, the right combination of powers could defend you against cold,
but at such a cost that the LS would be a far better deal. However, enough
Resistant Energy Defense and a lack of need to breathe the cold air would
allow you to walk the arctic tundra without harm.
However, you'd need a lot of ED to walk on Pluto without passing out.
>F> If I decide I want a character who is immune to cold up to a point, and
>F> resistant but not immune for temperatures below that, then, by your
>F> ruling, there is no way to do it. Only Life Support can protect him, and
>F> Life Support is all or nothing.
>
>That is the way things work in a four-color world.
>
>In a more realistic campaign you should sit down with the players before
>their characters ever enter play and decide if there are extremes that will
>exceed their survival capacities and what they are. Once you have done
>that you can decide if any Limitation bonuses are in order, or if they fall
>under the "-0 SFX Limitation" category. Then you can be fair about
>enforcing the limits.
Very good idea, and generally what I do.
The problem, as I see it, is caught up with an interpretation of the rules
that you stick to and I reject. "Powers should not step on other power's
toes." Thus, you take this to mean that if there is a LS:Extreme heat and
cold, then no other power can ever protect you from extreme heat and cold.
I, however, read it to mean that _new powers_ should not replace old ones.
Thus, if I create a new power whose sole effect is to make me immune to
cold, then I have violated this rule.
I do agree that extreme PD and ED should not necessarily prevent harm from
_remaining within_ extreme heat or cold. However, I still disagree about
Desolidified characters. Desolidified characters are immune to physical,
energy, Power Drain, Flash, and NND attacks. With those kind of defenses, I
fail to see why "environmental" should be a new classification of heat or
cold attack, never defined properly in Champions, that automatically hurts
Desolidified characters. It certainly isn't in the rules.
Filksinger
X-Sender: filkhero@pop.netaddress.com
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 12:50:22 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:47 PM 10/6/97 +0000, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>For those who DIDN'T get the joke, the word should have been
>"Antigone", not "antimony".
AAAAAAUUUUGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!
Antimony is the correct word. Antimony can be a silvery-white metal.
Sometimes it is a legal term, meaning when two laws conflict. And
_sometimes_ it is a (potentially tragic) conflict between two equally right
propositions.
Unfortunately, the last definition is rarely found in dictionaries. My 20
pound Websters doesn't even mention the legal term.
Filksinger
From: PopTholian@aol.com
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 16:06:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: NEW TOPIC: Favorite Campaign / Storyline / Hero/ Villain
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
When a former GM ran a combo sci-fi & fantasy game.
half the PC's were swords & sorcery:
rangers, thieves, priests.
half the PC's were techies:
like a star fleet away team: scientist, doctor, security guard
the plot:
the federation sends a team to a "prime directive" planet to
find out what all the strange energy readings that ships have
scanned from orbit. Well the strange energy is of course "magical"
in nature. And of course the scientist wants to discover the secret...
and:
the away team gets way too mired down in the local politics,
the wizards guild takes their communicators, etc. etc.
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:09:00 -0700 (PDT)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
hello;
I've been wondering how many people use Heromaker.
I'm putting together a website (albeit very slowly) and noticed on
Bob Greewade's site he lists his house rules as a series of files to
modify heromaker with.
I myself use the program heavily, and I was wondering how many of
us out there us it, and how many use other items.
Is it widespread? Do people like it? Etc...?
I'm thinking of following Bob's format of putting up my mods
to Heromaker.
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
My slowly evolving champions site is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 16:20:43 -0400
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:09 PM 10/6/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote:
> I've been wondering how many people use Heromaker.
>
>I'm putting together a website (albeit very slowly) and noticed on
>Bob Greewade's site he lists his house rules as a series of files to
>modify heromaker with.
> I myself use the program heavily, and I was wondering how many of
>us out there us it, and how many use other items.
> Is it widespread? Do people like it? Etc...?
I use it regularly.
Scott
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 16:20:43 -0400
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
X-Hero: champ-l
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 12
Mail loop detected for:
At 01:09 PM 10/6/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote:
> I've been wondering how many people use Heromaker.
>
>I'm putting together a website (albeit very slowly) and noticed on
>Bob Greewade's site he lists his house rules as a series of files to
>modify heromaker with.
> I myself use the program heavily, and I was wondering how many of
>us out there us it, and how many use other items.
> Is it widespread? Do people like it? Etc...?
I use it regularly.
Scott
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 16:55:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 6 Oct 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> antinomy - n. 1. An apparent contradiction between valid principles
> or conclusions that seem equally necessary and reasonable. 2. A conflict,
> opposition, or contradiction.
I thought that was alimony.
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 15:57:51 CDT
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> I'm putting together a website (albeit very slowly) and noticed on
> Bob Greewade's site he lists his house rules as a series of files to
> modify heromaker with.
> I myself use the program heavily, and I was wondering how many of
> us out there us it, and how many use other items.
> Is it widespread? Do people like it? Etc...?
>
> I'm thinking of following Bob's format of putting up my mods
> to Heromaker.
I use it, and the folks in my gaming circle use my computer, quite
frequently. How have you modified it?
DonM.
--
=========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist, (217) 239-8365 =
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
=========================================================================
X-Sender: filkhero@pop.netaddress.com
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 14:01:52 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 04:13 PM 10/6/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>
> Well, it wasn't in my American Heritage Dictionary, either. But,
>two entries down from "antiMoNy" (my emphasis) is "antiNoMy" (again, my
>emphasis).
> antinomy - n. 1. An apparent contradiction between valid principles
>or conclusions that seem equally necessary and reasonable. 2. A conflict,
>opposition, or contradiction.
> This seems to be the word you're describing. I'm not particularly
>verbose, but I just stumbled upon it.
>
>obHero: How many extra dice would a 20-lb Webster's give?
>
Thank you. Now I understand why no one could find this word. I knew it was
obscure (which is unfortunate for such profound and necessary word), but I
thought that _someone_ (at least a dictionary) would know it.
Filksinger
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 14:51:36 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:09 PM 10/6/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote:
>hello;
>
> I've been wondering how many people use Heromaker.
>
>I'm putting together a website (albeit very slowly) and noticed on
>Bob Greewade's site he lists his house rules as a series of files to
>modify heromaker with.
> I myself use the program heavily, and I was wondering how many of
>us out there us it, and how many use other items.
> Is it widespread? Do people like it? Etc...?
>
> I'm thinking of following Bob's format of putting up my mods
>to Heromaker.
I'm curious myself as to how many people have downloaded those files.
I'm really expecting only my players to have them, but others might....
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 14:54:17 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 04:24 PM 10/6/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>I'm putting together a website (albeit very slowly) and noticed on
>>Bob Greewade's site he lists his house rules as a series of files to
>>modify heromaker with.
> Huh. Wonder how I missed all that on there. I'm gonna have to take
>yet another close look at Mr. Greenwade's page.
It's in the "See Also..." section.
>> I myself use the program heavily, and I was wondering how many of
>>us out there us it, and how many use other items.
>> Is it widespread? Do people like it? Etc...?
> I like it. I used to use my own format character sheet, done on
>MSWord for Windows, but everything had to be input by hand (ugh). It's much
>easier this way.
> I though Hero was ditching it, though?
Creation Workshop with Hero Creator looks like it will functionally be
more of an upgrade to HeroMaker than a replacement. That is, it'll have
most or all of the functions that people have been screaming for; and Mr.
Harlick, at least, claims that it'll be able to import HeroMaker files.
Personally, I'm waiting to see CW/HC before I totally switch.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 14:55:49 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Vehicles and bases
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:46 PM 10/6/97 -0400, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>Bob G said:
>>On the other hand, you could use this tactic with Video Game Man, who
>>had Duplication with 3 Charges per day and a base form unable to leave
>>his Secret Chamber of Safety. He can't be permanently killed (unless
>>someone breaks into the SCC, which could be a scenario in itself), but
>>he can go out and adventure and be "killed" up to three times a day.
>
>You've been reading about Gorf, the Living Video Game again, haven't
>you? Try http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/1905/haym06c.html
I musta missed that one. I'll go take a look at it.... Thanks for the
URL!
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Heromaker: Customizing it.
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 14:58:07 -0700 (PDT)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Hello;
Another question on Heromaker.
I noticed comparing Bob Greenwade's version of campaign.txt
with the one that ships with heromaker that Bob
has changed a few of the lists, such as his language list, to
/V lists.
Any Heromaker Guru's know what benifit this would give?
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 97 22:02:43
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:09:00 -0700 (PDT), Brian Wong wrote:
>hello;
>
> I've been wondering how many people use Heromaker.
About the only time I use it is when doing Hero conversions of characters for public
consumption (like the New Gods character I recently posted to the list) - and that's
mostly for other people's benefit so that I can e-mail them HM files upon request.
For my own use I don't find it particularly useful as I tend to take a rather free-form
approach to writing up characters, mixing rules with historys/descriptions utill I finish,
then transcribe the rules part onto my own character sheets which lay things out where I
want to see them on a page.
-=>John D.
From: "Mann, Wade" <WMann@Rogue.CC.OR.US>
Subject: RE: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 15:06:03 -0700
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I use it for all of my characters, and I know everyone in my gaming
circle uses it as well.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Wong [SMTP:rook@sanfran.infinex.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 06, 1997 1:09 PM
> To: champ-l@omg.org
> Subject: Heromaker: Who uses it?
>
> hello;
>
> I've been wondering how many people use Heromaker.
>
> I'm putting together a website (albeit very slowly) and noticed on
> Bob Greewade's site he lists his house rules as a series of files to
> modify heromaker with.
> I myself use the program heavily, and I was wondering how many
> of
> us out there us it, and how many use other items.
> Is it widespread? Do people like it? Etc...?
>
> I'm thinking of following Bob's format of putting up my mods
> to Heromaker.
>
>
> Rook
> Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
> herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
> Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
>
> Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
> http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
>
> My slowly evolving champions site is at:
> http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>> Try looking under "Life Support."
F> Under Life Support in my BBB, it says nothing about damage from extreme
F> heat or cold, save that it exists.
Exactly! Hostile environments can be lethal even though they do not do
"damage" in the conventional sense. Toxins, extreme temperatures,
submersion, etc., can all be lethal without damaging the victim the way an
Energy Blast or RKA causes damage. That is why Life Support is a separate
power rather than a special case of the standard defensive powers. Because
it is a separate power, and because in general one power cannot (or at
least should not) be used to duplicate the effects of another power,
Desolidification does not provide "defense" against such things.
Now, sometimes the SFX of the thing may allow Desolidification to negate
it: a dart will not affect a desolidified character, so rationally a dart
laden with a neurotoxin will not affect him, either. But the same
character -- without any form of Life Suppot -- in a cloud of the stuff
will be affected by it.
To go back to your lava attack example: if the attack is built as a simple
RKA vs. Energy Defense, it will not affect a desolified character. But if
it is a continuous AoE RKA and has a linked NND "Life Support: Extreme
Heat", the RKA will not affect him but the NND will if he does not have the
appropriate Life Support.
And as the last thing I will say on this, if an attack can be built using
multiple powers, as in the previous example, there is absolutely no reason
why a character who's "insubstantiality" justifies Life Support should not
purchase that Life Support. And compared to the cost of Desolidification,
linked Life Support is extremely cheap.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
\
Reply-To: <Psyche@ionsys.com>
From: "Lisa Hartjes" <psyche@ionsys.com>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 18:43:29 -0400
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<<hello;
I've been wondering how many people use Heromaker.
I'm putting together a website (albeit very slowly) and noticed on
Bob Greewade's site he lists his house rules as a series of files to
modify heromaker with.
I myself use the program heavily, and I was wondering how many of
us out there us it, and how many use other items.
Is it widespread? Do people like it? Etc...?
I'm thinking of following Bob's format of putting up my mods
to Heromaker.>>
Personally, I think the people at Hero Soft should canonized, if not made
into deities. :)
I use Heromaker all the time. I can be really lazy at times, and have
better things to do with my time than doing all the calculations - I'd much
rather be coming up with ways to screw with my players' heads. :)
I also find it a lot easier to keep track of all the characters (be they
PC's or NPC's), and it's a rather common format - most of the players in my
games (including the pbem's I run) all have Heromaker, or know someone who
does. it's a good standardized format, and you don't have to worry about
losing your sheet when your SO throws out the pile of papers on the floor -
just print out another. I also find it's the easiest way to transmit
characters in a pbem format.
Did I mention I love Heromaker? And that I neither work for nor live with
someone who does, nor own bits of that company in any way. :)
Lisa
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 16:17:58 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Customizing it.
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At 02:58 PM 10/6/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote:
>Hello;
>
> Another question on Heromaker.
>
>I noticed comparing Bob Greenwade's version of campaign.txt
>with the one that ships with heromaker that Bob
>has changed a few of the lists, such as his language list, to
>/V lists.
> Any Heromaker Guru's know what benifit this would give?
Well, for one thing, a character in my campaign can now speak Ancient
Egyptian or Pilipino, or have Oregon Hero Sanction or a Black Belt, with
just a couple of clicks instead of a couple of clicks and a few keystrokes.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 16:20:57 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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At 06:38 AM 10/6/97 -0500, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>I quit using HeroMaker a week after I purchased Champions Deluxe (which is
>where I got my copy). It's poorly documented and not very friendly to my
>existing computer system, and I already have a WordPerfect template for
>printing up characters in the format published books like Classic Enemies
used.
>
>I might switch to HM if I could find a decent way to print character sheets
>that don't look like newspaper-clipping ransom notes. :/
Yeah, I don't even both using the printer with it any more (the driver
for Canon printers really sucks; my BJ-200e always prints the last two
lines of any HM sheet on a separate page). Primarily I use it to do the
hard math work, then print to a text file which I then edit or use as a
reference.
Hopefully the advertising buzz that Creation Workshop fixes those
troubles is accurate, and printing woes will be over. (With luck, I'll
also be able to modify the files to create HTML files!)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
From: "Jim Dickinson" <champion@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Favorite Campaign / Storyline / Hero/ Villain
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 16:23:08 -0700
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>NEW TOPIC: What was your favorite campaign or storyline? (RPG stories, not
>comic book, though stuff imitated from comics should probably be included).
>The same goes for your favorite hero or villain?
One of my personal favorites was from the early days of Champs, when the
Foxbat story line was progressing through various printed sources, like the
AC.
Hero Games made mention of Foxbat planning to steal the "Transporter" from
the original Star Trek sound stage at Paramount. So our GM decided to
expand on the plot a bit, and we all tried to stop him.
However, he managed to get away, but was back again in no time to steal the
Delorian from the set of Back to the Future. Ugh. He got away again, by
"beaming out with it."
Double-Ugh! He was actually getting these things to work!
Our next game session, the GM asked us to write up lesser-point versions of
our characters that would be back when we were teen-agers. Our younger
selves encountered Foxbat, and luckily thwarted his plan to take us out of
the action, and give his younger self a head start on crime.
The final episode was back in the future, with us finding Foxbat's flying
fortress, and destroying the car and the transporters so he couldn't use
them anymore. But unfortunately, the coward managed to get away again,
leaving us with a falling fortress headed for the heart of the city. What a
mess!
Those were the good ol days...
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 00:31:44 +0000
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Reply-to: ghoyle1@airmail.net
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----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 00:33:20 +0000
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Reply-to: ghoyle1@airmail.net
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I use Heromaker regularly, but I can't wait for the new Windows-based
Creation Workshop's Hero System plug-in.
Guy
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 23:37:46 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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On Mon, 6 Oct 1997, Brian Wong wrote:
> You guys aren't thinking big enough. :)
>
> Get the guy who invented the bow and arrow. :)
>
> Course, in any realistic game, that would be hundreds of trips to
> several places on the globe...
Hey, one whole side of one of the Big Debates has just been declared
"unrealistic". That'll save a lot of effort.:)
> Imagine a world where Julius Ceasar had been 'killed by a stray arrow'
> years before the time he was assassinated in the senate...
I'm not sure I can. Rewriting the 20th century is bad enough, there's no
way I'm going to try to figure out 2 millenia's worth of consequences.
> Or where the Trojan Horse had been revealed before it got in the
> gates.
While we now know that there war a war between the Greeks and Trojans, I
kind of doubt there was an actual Horse involved. Depending on the level
of camp in your campaign, of course.:)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 23:41:49 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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On Mon, 6 Oct 1997, Filksinger wrote:
> >While buying lots of Energy Defense may protect one from the *damage*
> >caused by some forms of bitter-cold attacks, it will not keep one warm, it
> >will not prevent hypothermia, it will not prevent freezing to death due to
> >prolonged exposure to such conditions.
>
> Let me make something clear here. _In my campaign_, that is probably how I
> would rule. However, no where in the _rulebook_ does it say this. There is
> nothing in the BBB that states that extreme cold or heat do _anything_
> beyond attack damage.
Huh??? The BBB also fails to state that light which strikes a boundary
between media at a small enough angle will be completely reflected, but
I feel safe in assuming that it will in fact do so even in HERO system
campaigns.
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 23:47:37 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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On Sun, 5 Oct 1997, Filksinger wrote:
> All of this discussion is interesting, but it still doesn't solve the
> original problem. Consider two villains. Both have an RKA Radius Area
> Effect. One is defined as a "heat field", the other "the ground turns into
> lava".
>
> By the arguments I have been hearing, the guy with "ground is lava" gets
> Affects Desolidified for free. Either that, or you have to explain exactly
> why regular lava does affect de solidified, but the villains lava doesn't.
Non sequitur. If you believe that Desolid doesn't provide defense against
lava, then the obvious corollary is that somebody who wants to be able to
create lava needs to buy a Power with Affects Desolidified. Otherwise, he
hasn't properly defined the effect he wants.
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 23:57:44 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Reduced END Question
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On 4 Oct 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> TB> A punch is an attack action, and as such is a deliberate action by the
> TB> character; this should always require END. But Casual STR represents
> TB> what the character can do "without even trying"; it seems silly to me
> TB> that this would cost END.
>
> Use of casual Strength is still an exertion of Strength, regardless of how
> much Strength is used.
I don't think that it is, any more than the fidgeting constantly done by
a human body is. To put it another way, it makes no sense that you can
tire somebody out by pestering them with Entangles or Grabs that are too
weak for them to even notice.
> And, as mentioned, unless otherwise specified, everything a character does
> requires END. Use of casual Strength does not have such mention, therefore
> it does require END.
And as _I_ previously mentioned, the BBB specifically says that Casual STR
does cost END, so it should be obvious that I'm not disputing what the
official stance is.
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 00:04:04 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Reduced END Question
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Sat, 4 Oct 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote:
> Since any END cost of Casual STR will often be superseded by "real" STR
> actions (I break out of the Entangle using my Casual STR because I want to
> do something ELSE with my full STR, et al.), it doesn't really bother me.
That just makes it sillier. Either shrugging things off takes effort or it
doesn't; why should what you do later in the phase matter?
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com (Unverified)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 22:34:43 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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At 04:20 PM 10/6/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Yeah, I don't even both using the printer with it any more (the driver
>for Canon printers really sucks; my BJ-200e always prints the last two
>lines of any HM sheet on a separate page). Primarily I use it to do the
>hard math work, then print to a text file which I then edit or use as a
>reference.
There's hard math in HERO? ;]
--
Not afraid of long division ...
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 22:34:45 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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At 11:41 PM 10/6/97 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>Huh??? The BBB also fails to state that light which strikes a boundary
>between media at a small enough angle will be completely reflected, but
>I feel safe in assuming that it will in fact do so even in HERO system
>campaigns.
Careful here, boys 'n girls. This same type of "come ON, it's only common
SENSE, man!" approach is what starts all the "if you didn't buy it, you
didn't get it" fights in the first place.
--
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Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 22:34:47 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Reduced END Question
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At 12:04 AM 10/7/97 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Sat, 4 Oct 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>
>> Since any END cost of Casual STR will often be superseded by "real" STR
>> actions (I break out of the Entangle using my Casual STR because I want to
>> do something ELSE with my full STR, et al.), it doesn't really bother me.
>
>That just makes it sillier. Either shrugging things off takes effort or it
>doesn't; why should what you do later in the phase matter?
Okay, to rephrase: you use END for Casual STR. If you make any "full use"
of STR later on, you only pay the other half of the END cost then. Why?
Because you pay for STR END per Phase, not per USE.
If you think that's silly, it's your prerogative. You're free to rule that
you pay for STR per use, and/or that Casual STR doesn't cost END. I'm just
stating the "canon" rules.
--
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Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 22:34:52 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 11:36 PM 10/6/97 -0500, Tokyo Mark wrote:
>I have this story, was it Zelazny?Highly recommended as an example of how
>little changes can effect history. and as a cool story:)
If I'm not mistaken, it IS Zelazny. Forget the short story collection I
found it in, something about unicorns.
--
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Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 22:47:53 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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I personally use HeroMaker almost exclusively. I can sit down and make a
character if need me, but why do all the work when the computer does all the
hard stuff? I have been in a campaign where the GM didn't want HeroMaker
print outs, but I still created the character via HeroMaker then hand-write
him the character onto a charater sheet. Made my life easier. Well, take
it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
====================================================
I'll fire aimlessly if you don't come out!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 23:36:27 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7
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Subject: Re: GM question #1
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>
> Except that killing Einstein probably would at best delay, not prevent, the
> invention of nuclear weapons, and might tip the scales so *Germany* invents
> them first. You return to a blasted radioactive wasteland surrounding the
> Eternal Reich (only the U.S. and U.K. would probably actually be nuked into
> dust, since Germany wanted to own Russia).
This is true, but Moscow might bite the dust just to make sure:) Odds are
pretty good if you got both Einstein and Heisenburg (sp?) the bomb would
be pushed back a fair amount though.
>
> You know, this reminds me of a speculative fiction story I read once called
> "Blood & Dust". It postulates two alien intelligences playing a game (of
> the same name as the story) with Earth. Each has 3 "moves" consisting of
> either sparing or killing a single individual in the time stream. The goal
> is for the "Dust" player to destroy human civilization within his 3 moves,
> without "Blood" stopping him.
>
I have this story, was it Zelazny?Highly recommended as an example of how
little changes can effect history. and as a cool story:)
TokyoMark
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 23:43:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7
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Subject: Re: GM question #1
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> >It's shaping up to be an interesting and easy game to
> >GM:) I admit I borrowed the Red Banner from the books and made a few
> >changes, but for now they are the schol in town with the money and the
> >good rep. The PC's follow the 'Way of the Unrestricted Fist' and so far
> >from the Master have learned one basic technique, based on the three
> >principles: Motion, Contemplation, and Opposition. IE, if you are in
> >trouble, run away until you figure out a way to win;)
>
> Sounds to me like a good basic tactic.
Yep. Especially in a capaign where most PC's can do 10D6 with martial
arts, but only soak around 6-8 (with 25% damage reduction as a gimme
power). The best moment so far was when the PC's decided to sneak up to
the Red Banner school's gate at night and paint something insulting on the
gate. Nearly everyone blew stealth rolls and only one PC made his
perception roll to hear the guards coming to investigate. He made
gestures with his hands to everyone else, but the other PC's could not
figure out what he was trying to say, so they were standing right in front
of the gate when it opened.:) A little to my surprise, the PC's threw the
paint at the guards and ran like hell.
TokyoMark
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 00:17:39 -0500
From: Joel Vallejo <jvallejo@bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: jvallejo@bellsouth.net
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Customizing it.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Well, for one thing, a character in my campaign can now
> speak...Pilipino..., with
> just a couple of clicks instead of a couple of clicks and a few keystrokes.
Actually as a Filipino, the language is Tagalog, and it is already included in
my version of heromaker.
Joel Vallejo
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 00:25:23 -0500
From: Joel Vallejo <jvallejo@bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: jvallejo@bellsouth.net
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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Brian Wong wrote:
> I've been wondering how many people use Heromaker... I myself use
> the program heavily, and I was wondering how many of us out there us it,
> and how many use other items.
I love Heromaker and use it exclusively to write out my characters. I heard
a rumor that it was originally supposed to be part of the Champions computer
game that was thrown around in the early 1990s. I later learned the game had
gone the way of vaporware. Consequently, Microprose looks like it may be
able to make the first superhero computer game for dedicated RPGers. It's
called Guardians: Agents of Justice and should be out either this winter or
spring, depending on delays. While it obviously won't be a true copy of the
Champions system, it looks like it will be a pretty good clone. I can't wait
to see it.
Joel Vallejo
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 15:42:37 +1000
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At 04:13 PM 10/5/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 11:28 AM 10/5/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>>
>>
>>here's the problem- in star treck it's alright to give people 'one option'
>plots (you MUST do this or all history will change for the worse, ect) but
>in an rpg, it's patently unfair to be so heavy-handed. .. but where is the
>line drawn? i can't think of any 'borderline' examples. . .
>
>I don't think I would play in your games. They are too limiting in their
>scenarios.
>
limiting? wait, they give the pc's a choice in matters, so they limit? nno-ot!
>In this case, you are declaring that it is improper in a RPG to play out
>the greatest of all human tragedies- antimony.
>
or rather the greatest of human tragedies- false perception of powerlessness.
Heros are people who change things DESPITE it being 'impossible' to do so. .
>Filksinger
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 15:52:27 +1000
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At 11:01 PM 10/5/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>> the problem arises when the gm's 'reality' rejects the pc's choices, even though real >>life rarely works that way. .
>
>{Confused look}
>
>How does the GM "accept" or "reject" the PC's choices? The GM sets up
>the situation, the PC's react to it. If the campaign is gritty enough,
>even the GM may not know a way out of the problem, but that doesn't mean
>that the PCs can't think of one.
>
(confused look, funny hairdo)
the gm can reject whatever he wants - just by saying "no, that desn't work".
The gm should not be made to justify his choices, but as always there is just as
much trouble if they go too far in the other direction.. . . . and that's not a description of a gritty campaign in my book- that's juat a good campaign. Gritty 'realistic' campaigns are more likely to have dictatorial gm's who block players' actions by saying 'it's not realistic' or 'that wouldn't work in the real world'.
>--
><------------------------------------------------------->
>Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
>Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
>http://www.erols.com/robtwest
>
>
>
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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 15:55:10 +1000
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Subject: Re: GM question #1
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At 05:02 AM 10/6/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Why not go back in history and try to "cure" the bad guy, instead of doing the
>same thing as him/her/it?
>
because some other sick guy would take his place?
>Like in Hitlers case, move him to someplacw where his paintings could be sold.
>After all, down deep Hitler was a painter, who cold not sell his okay paintings
>cause in Vienna c.1930 there was thousands of starving artists just as good as
>he. Or maybe even earlier.
>
i've heard berthold(sp) brect rejected hitlers art- maybe we should go back and kill him instead? *eg*
>
>
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 15:57:24 +1000
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At 11:12 PM 10/5/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>> This is a wonderful point. What about going further? Lets go
>> back to the time of Ferdinand and Isabella and take out Carninal
>> Torquemada. He's been responsible for an awful lot of destruction. And
>> which pope called the first crusade? Gotta get him too. For that matter,
>> they should take out Columbus' ship on the way to the new world -- stop
>> the genocied of the American Indian peoples. At the same time, maybe the
>> Aztec empire should be destroyed -- they practice human sacrafice, you
>> know. And how about . . .
>>
>Hey, I know, let's kill that meddler Einstein, and save the world from the
>horror of nuke's...
>
>
and don't forget barry manilow!! *lol*
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 16:02:01 +1000
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At 01:25 AM 10/6/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> Then there's always the theory that, should a change be made to
>> history, the time stream will shift back into position and provide a
>> substitute -- nothing changes except the Nazis are crying, "Heil,
>> Hetzler!"
>
> And don't forget the completely objectively-based consequence that
>changing history just might simply create a new branch of the timeline,
>which the PCs would return to, but the 'established' timeline still
>exists without them; i.e. they only are able to change *their own*
>future, but all their family/friends etc. now exist in a seperate
>timeline from the one they switched to....
>
> -Capt. Spith
>
and let's say instead in timeline B albert hetzler wins the war (z is more scary than t)
and now decides to invade timeline A with an army of super-nazi's. . .
now we're getting somewhere! :->~
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 16:05:03 +1000
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At 11:10 PM 10/5/97 -0500, you wrote:
>At 05:53 AM 10/5/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> And nobody's even brought up (at least directly, so far) the possibility
>>that without Hitler in place, the Nazi Party might have come up led by
>>someone even more vicious -- and with enough intelligence to actually win
>>WWII.
>
>Possible, but then again, this hypothetical UberFuhrer may actually have
>*avoided* WWII (as we know it). Simple sandbox math dictates that when you
>have 3 bigger boys around you, you don't pick a fight. Part of Hitler's
>"incompetence" might have been his obsession with geopolitics, and the
>belief that to control west-central Asia was the key to controlling the
>world. A more competent leader may have been satisfied with France and
>Eastern Europe, set up defensive lines, and sued for peace with Britain (and
>never broken Germany's non-aggression pact with the Soviets).
>
the soviets i agree, but britain would have been better off 'pacified' so i think the situation would have been simmilar to 'our war', maybe with the most brutal fighting on the souther front? (i love this alternative psudo-history stuff! *s*)
>And if you eliminate Adolf early enough, who's to say that the new Germany
>will be Nazi at all? After all, Hitler brought more to the table than just
>his ostensible incompetence -- he also brought an amazing ability to
>manipulate people. The possibility exists that it REQUIRED a Hitler just to
>sell the country on the Nazi party.
>
>ObHERO: How do you GMs out there handle time travel, metaphysically, in your
>campaigns? Is it POSSIBLE to change history? Have you ever had to deal
>with paradoxes created by overzealous PCs? I'd like to hear some more
>general time travel troubles.
>
>I know the strangest adventure I ever had the pleasure to be a part of was a
>time travel story (ironically enough, WWII) where one PC had the brilliant
>idea to pass off our actions as those of existing Golden Age heroes. One
>member, a brick named Anvil, sorta choked when he had to identify himself
>during the adventure, and blurted that he was "Plymouth Rock!". Upon
>returning, sure enough, there was now a record of the mystery man Plymouth
>Rock in the history books.
>
>--
>Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
>+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
>| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely. |
>+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
> Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
>
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 16:14:29 +1000
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At 12:50 PM 10/6/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 12:47 PM 10/6/97 +0000, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>
>>For those who DIDN'T get the joke, the word should have been
>>"Antigone", not "antimony".
>
>AAAAAAUUUUGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!
>
>Antimony is the correct word. Antimony can be a silvery-white metal.
>Sometimes it is a legal term, meaning when two laws conflict. And
>_sometimes_ it is a (potentially tragic) conflict between two equally right
>propositions.
>
erally? then what's the original point(rhetorical)? i have that all the time in my games-what i don't have is i situation in which there is only ONE right way, moral or srtategic...
>Unfortunately, the last definition is rarely found in dictionaries. My 20
>pound Websters doesn't even mention the legal term.
>
>Filksinger
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 16:15:11 +1000
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At 04:55 PM 10/6/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>On Mon, 6 Oct 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>
>> antinomy - n. 1. An apparent contradiction between valid principles
>> or conclusions that seem equally necessary and reasonable. 2. A conflict,
>> opposition, or contradiction.
>
>I thought that was alimony.
>
>
>
and i STILL have it in my games! *lol8
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 16:17:09 +1000
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At 09:15 PM 10/6/97 +0600, you wrote:
>Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>>On Mon, 6 Oct 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>
>>> antinomy - n. 1. An apparent contradiction between valid principles
>>> or conclusions that seem equally necessary and reasonable. 2. A conflict,
>>> opposition, or contradiction.
>>
>>I thought that was alimony.
>>
> No, that's what you have to pay your ex-wife when you get divorced.
>It's called that because she takes (try and say it out loud) ALL-YI-MONY.
>
>- Jerry
>
>
yes, there's divorce payments in my games too (sorry i'll stop now)
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 16:50:53 +1000
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At 09:35 PM 10/6/97 +0600, you wrote:
>At 02:01 PM 10/6/97 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>>At 04:13 PM 10/6/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>> Well, it wasn't in my American Heritage Dictionary, either. But,
>>>two entries down from "antiMoNy" (my emphasis) is "antiNoMy" (again, my
>>>emphasis).
>>> antinomy - n. 1. An apparent contradiction between valid principles
>>>or conclusions that seem equally necessary and reasonable. 2. A conflict,
>>>opposition, or contradiction.
>>> This seems to be the word you're describing. I'm not particularly
>>>verbose, but I just stumbled upon it.
>>>
>>>obHero: How many extra dice would a 20-lb Webster's give?
>>>
>>
>>Thank you. Now I understand why no one could find this word. I knew it was
>>obscure (which is unfortunate for such profound and necessary word), but I
>>thought that _someone_ (at least a dictionary) would know it.
>>
> After I sent this out, I became worried that I came off like a
>little know-it-all dink. Thanks for not getting upset.
> Also, (getting back to your original point) how is this the most
>tragic of all scenarios? Could you perhaps toss me an example?
>
>- Jerry
>
>And I still don't have the stats for a 20-lb Webster's...
>
>
And i Still don't see why i don't have this in my campaign! *lol*
okies, hows about i do both?
I suppose the original poster thought that when i said all the stuff i did, it precluded tense stand-off's and difficult choics. What i meant (and i think i was pretty sure i was clear on) is that when these things occur, there is more than one way out of them- an infinite number of ways, based on how the pc's react. many people put up moral quandries like puzzles- i.e. here's the problem, here's the solution. Personaly i don't do that for puzzles EITHER, but in any even a morality situation is NEVER that simple. For instance some people in my country have been pushing the following logic:
"we have lost the war on drugs. Hence, we should not make them illegal any longer."
it has been attached to the (much more reasonable) suggestion that:
"we should do trials with legal heroin for treatment of addicts."
Imagine if a gm got hold of this issue (i think it's already been mentioned).
Now, in my game, i would set up a scenario which raises the issue, and leave the action to the pc's. In a 'BAD' campaign, the gm will have already set out the 'right' answer, based on their own attitudes and perception of 'reality'. They might agree and choose to place a scenario in which methadone-riddles bums have horrible lives, ect, ect, all based on the issue of legalising heroin for treatment purposes.
The difference would be that the morals and 'reality' involved would be a 'stacked deck' in support of the proposition. Hence all the police the pc's come across are 'beaten' by drug lords, and the gm trys to make it blatantly obvoius that the pc's efforts to stop drug dealers are pointless. Frankly this sort of suggestion barely holds up irl(lets be honest people i know cynicism is cool but. . . ), littleown in a setting where people can bounce columbian bullets off their chest and leech drug addiction out of a junkie with their powers.
For the above example, the first sentence may seem accurate, but is it? I might argue
that there's never been a war on drugs- we've never even had a polise service which wasn't riddled with corruption. Next, might point out that in a superheroic rpg a 'new offensive' useing paranormals might net great 'victories'.
So, for example what if the pc's radically oppose heroin treatment, AND vow to stop drug dealers, by assembling a crack team of supers? Well, neither me or the "BAD' gm would be completly happy- i would support legalised heroin trials, but i would like a proactive super-drug war in my game. The 'other guy', if he lives up to my stereotype, would squash the pc's plans. All the other heros would be corrupt, the drug lords would out smart them (any npc can since the gm sees all), or they might just get slaughtered by a columbian voodo zombie hit squad with magic bullets. Whatever it takes to 'prove' that the war on drugs is not an option.
Clearly i'm saying i wouldn't do these things, but work the campaign to make it challenging, but maybe possible. . so one or two npc team-members get corrupted, the drug lords might win as much as they loose (depending on campaign setting stuff) and them voodo zombie's are deffinitley a cewl idea- IF they're balanced as all villans should be. You will note however that i'm already half-happy with the players choice- after all i want the action(super team) if not the subtext (legal heroin testing is bad)
So let's shift it- aw hell, lets say the players go completly the other way. They agree that the war on drugs is lost, AND decide legalised testing is a bad idea.
Well a good GM would let this lie, or maybe try to constructively debate the issue further at a later date, while allowing the pc's to keep their opinions. but as always, where do you draw the line? when are you 'raising an issue' and when are you preaching to a captive audience?
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 03:06:51 -0400
From: MCI <draconis@mci2000.com>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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I have used heromaker for a long time and find it to be a very valuable
tool. I can throw up a character in a 10th the time as doing it by hand.
I must admit that the printing problems still plague me, but i just print to
a text file and then edit at leasure. I have tried the character creator
with the fuzion plug in and was not overtly impressed, with the exception of
its nice printing ability. but I am still greatly anticipating the plugin
for hero system for it. Hopefully they will have fixed the few problems I
see in it by the time that plug in comes out.
Always,
George
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Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 02:07:48 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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At 06:09 PM 10/6/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
>>> Try looking under "Life Support."
>
>F> Under Life Support in my BBB, it says nothing about damage from extreme
>F> heat or cold, save that it exists.
>
>Exactly! Hostile environments can be lethal even though they do not do
> "damage" in the conventional sense.
Your definition of "exactly" must not coincide with Webster's.
To be blunt, your contention here is NOT a rulebook statement, but just your
personal opinion -- in other words, it's a home rule. :/ The book merely
states that Life Support allows you to "operate in unfriendly or deadly
environments without harm". It does not say here (or anywhere else that I'm
aware of) that said environments do not follow the standard HERO rules used
elsewhere. It does not say a character without life support automatically
dies in such environments. It does not instruct the gamer to forego the
standard damage resolution for environments which might use it (heat/cold,
radiation, or pressure).
The LS entry just defines *a* defense against these things, not the *only*
defense.
> Toxins, extreme temperatures, submersion, etc., can all be lethal without
> damaging the victim the way an Energy Blast or RKA causes damage.
Prove it. One effect in the LS family can kill without standard damage:
suffocation -- this is because the book says so (on p. 167), rendering
asphyxiation damage as an explicit process to stand alongside "normal
damage" and "killing damage". There is no reason not to presume that such
"unfriendly or deadly environments" aren't unfriendly and/or deadly
according to standard HERO provisions (i.e. doing normal, killing, or
suffocating damage).
> That is why Life Support is a separate power rather than a special case
> of the standard defensive powers. Because it is a separate power, and
> because in general one power cannot (or at least should not) be used to
> duplicate the effects of another power, Desolidification does not
> provide "defense" against such things.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess you're NOT channeling the
spirits of George, Steve, and Rob. :/
You need to reexamine the validity of this "there can be only one" principle
of selecting powers. If it were true, than either Armor, Force Field, or
Damage Resistance would not exist. For that matter, Desolidification would
never work -- Desolid "duplicates" the effect of LS against intense heat
only to the same degree it "duplicates" a 40 ED Force Field against an EB.
You've read a lot more into the Desolid and Life Support entries than was
ever actually written there. It specifically states that Desolid doesn't
let you survive without air. That's it. Without a explicit statement
otherwise, WHICH EXISTS IN NEITHER POWER DESCRIPTION, one must assume that
all the usual effects of powers are still in place.
In other words, since the book defines a blast furnace as a 6d6 energy KA, I
first check to see if the target has LS: Intense Heat; if he is lacking
this, I resolve it exactly like any other 6d6 energy KA. Desolid, rED,
Damage Reduction, etc. all function precisely as if the person just got
nailed with an attack.
(Technically, it's precisely as if the person just got nailed with a 6d6 KA
linked to a 12d6 EB, because of the "other damage" bit, but that's tangential).
>To go back to your lava attack example: if the attack is built as a simple
>RKA vs. Energy Defense, it will not affect a desolified character. But if
>it is a continuous AoE RKA and has a linked NND "Life Support: Extreme
>Heat", the RKA will not affect him but the NND will if he does not have the
>appropriate Life Support.
Straw man. In the first place, the attack shouldn't be built as a linked
NND. The "heat" element is already represented -- that's why it's an energy
attack in the first place. If you want to represent a "lava blast" that
damages by both heat and impact, you'd link a energy RKA (or EB, if you're
nice) to a physical EB.
And after all, the NND part should be irrelevant, right? Notice, naturally
occurring lava (p.272) was not an NND, and that it also clearly separated
"impact" damage (described under "Lava/mud flow") from the "heat" damage.
Weren't you saying earlier that THIS effect would nab any character without
LS, period? Why bother throwing in more elements to confuse the issue?
And finally, Desolid explicitly makes you immune from NND attacks anyways,
unless it's part of your "reasonably common group of attacks". If my SFX
for turning desolid is 'physical transference to the astral plane' -- guess
what? Your intense heat isn't part of that group of attacks. (For that
matter, neither is the poison cloud).
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely. |
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Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
X-Sender: mlknight@pop.mindspring.com
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 02:01:36 -0700
From: Michelle Knight <mlknight@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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At 06:43 PM 10/6/97 -0400, Lisa Hartjes wrote:
>Personally, I think the people at Hero Soft should canonized, if not made
>into deities. :)
>
>I use Heromaker all the time. I can be really lazy at times, and have
>better things to do with my time than doing all the calculations - I'd much
>rather be coming up with ways to screw with my players' heads. :)
<irrelevant part snipped>
>Did I mention I love Heromaker? And that I neither work for nor live with
>someone who does, nor own bits of that company in any way. :)
C'mon Lisa, tell us how you *really* feel. He he he. :) As for me I
use HeroMaker all the time, but I will probably switch to Creation Workshop
when the Hero System plug-in comes out for it. I was going to get it at
GenCon, but decided against it because I didn't see spending $30 for
something that I wouldn't use right away.
Oh, BTW, if there are any Greensboro, NC area Hero System GM/Players
out there who would be interested in welcoming a new player into their
midst please feel free to e-mail me. I am moving to that area in early '98
and would like to hook up with a group if possible. Thanks. :)
Michelle
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 16:21:21 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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Scott S. wrote:
>> Personally, I think some specific rules for "environmental effects"
>> are needed, something akin to the Drowning Rules in the BBB. I'll try and
>> work on it.
>It seems whats needed is a scale and specific agreed effect, like Sahara
>Heat = 1D6 NND Continuous Uncontrolled AOE ,Not Vs. Life support vs.
>Extreme heat, for example. perhaps a different effect for cold, etc...,
>with the damage increasing with the relative intensity of the environment?
>
Well, it wouldn't be as simple as increasing the NND damage...
according to my Soldier's Manual of Common Tasks, there are varying levels
of damage from heat and cold. First, there's Heat Cramps, Heat Exhaustion,
and Heat Stroke. It may be that the NND continues until the seizures set
in... but how do you do seizures? There is also a warning that Heat Stroke
may cause death... but in the description of treating the injury, it says
that the caualty may be conscious, as well. So, just waiting for the NND to
knock him/her out before you apply the other damage may not be completely
realistic.
For cold injuries, it's a little more straightforward. Basically,
the body's temperature has been lowered... causing hypothermia and
frostbite. And it does seem to be a progression of damage, although I have
no idea how to model the different stages. Here they are, in progressive order:
a. Loss of sensation or numbness
b. Sudden whiteness of skin, with a tingling feeling
c. Redness of skin in light-skinned soldiers; grayish coloring in
dark-skinned soldiers
d. Blisters
e. Swelling or tender areas
f. Loss of feeling of pain in affected area (If you aren't cold,
you're in trouble)
g. Pale, yellowish, waxy-looking skin
h. Frozen area that feels solid or wooden to the touch
Gruesome, eh?
Some of that may be NND, but you get into an EB (Cold), possibly
Penetrating, and later a DEX drain (again, probably). And some of that
stuff is just plain difficult to model. Does someone with Power Defense
less effected by the stiffening of their flesh (ugh)?
I wish that I had my GURPS books here. Somewhere in the ones I
owned, there were two things that would help me in this discussion. One was
the racial temperature tolerances, and how to adjust them for new races
(there was even an Advantage to increase the tolerance range). The other
was (IIRC) a set of rules for exposure (and overexposure) to the elements.
- Jerry
ps - And we haven't even got into the effects of Pressure/Vacuum or Disease...
From: PopTholian@aol.com
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 08:36:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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I use it all the time, much
to my finagling player's chagrin.
From: PopTholian@aol.com
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 08:36:25 -0400 (EDT)
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Best Source for Mucho Vehicles?
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Which Champions supplement (or which Hero ftp site for that matter)
has the most and/or best Vehicle write-ups? (I'm not asking anyone's
opinion on how good the Hero Vehicle Rules are) I'm just looking for
dozens of representative samples of various planes, trains & automobiles.
I've looked around and it seems to be slim pickins on the www/net.
So now I'm wondering which out of print supplement I need to dig up
to get what I want. Thanks!
--
Elliott
From: ErolB1@aol.com
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:38:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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In a message dated 97-10-06 16:16:22 EDT, rook@sanfran.infinex.com wrote:
> I've been wondering how many people use Heromaker.
I make extensive use of it when creating Hero System characters. Usually I'll
use scrap paper & a calculator when trying to work out a new power, but when
putting together characters I'll fire up Heromaker.
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
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Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 09:44:16 -0400
From: "Stephen B. Mann" <smann@cnsvax.albany.edu>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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> I've been wondering how many people use Heromaker.
I do. I've been using it for about 4 years. I'm generally the only
one in my various gaming groups that's used it. Of course, most of the
time I'm also the only one with a computer.
> I'm putting together a website (albeit very slowly) and noticed on
> Bob Greewade's site he lists his house rules as a series of files to
> modify heromaker with.
I did some slight customizing of the *.txt files when I first got
the program, but only as an experiment to see how it worked. I don't
have much in the way of house rules that can be coded into HM easily, so
didn't do more than add a couple of languages.
> Is it widespread? Do people like it? Etc...?
In general, I think it's dandy. I just wish it were a Windows
program; for the Windows printing routines, and because that DOS look is
hard on the eyes.
--
Stephen B. Mann smann@cnsvax.albany.edu
SUNY Learning Network http://sln1.esc.edu
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Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 19:56:44 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Reduced END Question
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At 02:19 PM 10/7/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 04:31 PM 10/7/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>Here is where we have a disagreement: I do not see them as being too weak
>>to be noticed. They are an annoyance, certainly, and sufficient annoyance
>>can wear one down.
>
> And anyone who doesn't believe that has never watched "Family Matters."
>---
Or had to live in my dormitory. Sure, I can use minimal effort to
ignore them playing basketball in the hallway at 2 AM, but it still takes
effort...
And so would using your Casual STR. Honestly, you're already
getting a break by not wasting the Half Phase. I allow my Players to use
less than full dice (of attack or STR) for an END cutback, and this seems
along the same lines.
- Jerry
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Re: In defense of Shape Shift (was: CHAR: The Saint)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 10:30:22 -0400 (EDT)
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> Hope this helps clarify my position, and soften it at the same time.
>
> Filksinger
>
Yes on both counts.
-Eric
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 08:00:19 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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At 11:41 PM 10/6/97 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Mon, 6 Oct 1997, Filksinger wrote:
>
>> >While buying lots of Energy Defense may protect one from the *damage*
>> >caused by some forms of bitter-cold attacks, it will not keep one warm, it
>> >will not prevent hypothermia, it will not prevent freezing to death due to
>> >prolonged exposure to such conditions.
>>
>> Let me make something clear here. _In my campaign_, that is probably how I
>> would rule. However, no where in the _rulebook_ does it say this. There is
>> nothing in the BBB that states that extreme cold or heat do _anything_
>> beyond attack damage.
>
>Huh??? The BBB also fails to state that light which strikes a boundary
>between media at a small enough angle will be completely reflected, but
>I feel safe in assuming that it will in fact do so even in HERO system
>campaigns.
There's a difference. This is purely a standard physics question; what
Filk is discussing is a question of a nuance in Hero mechanics.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 08:15:45 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Customizing it.
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 09:05 AM 10/6/97 -0700, Rook wrote:
>> At 02:58 PM 10/6/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote:
>> >Hello;
>> >
>> > Another question on Heromaker.
>> >
>> >I noticed comparing Bob Greenwade's version of campaign.txt
>> >with the one that ships with heromaker that Bob
>> >has changed a few of the lists, such as his language list, to
>> >/V lists.
>> > Any Heromaker Guru's know what benifit this would give?
>>
>> Well, for one thing, a character in my campaign can now speak Ancient
>> Egyptian or Pilipino, or have Oregon Hero Sanction or a Black Belt, with
>> just a couple of clicks instead of a couple of clicks and a few keystrokes.
>
> Yeah, I saw all that. But why did you add /V into knowledges?
/V keeps the Value of the Knowledge so that when you grab a CHA file
made with the default TXT files (or even just an earlier modified version)
they still have the same result. You could get the same thing by just
adding all of your new entries as the end of the list, letting HeroMaker
just assign the values in the order given, but then you can't alphabetize
or sort them in any way without losing the values.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 08:18:04 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Customizing it.
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At 12:17 AM 10/7/97 -0500, Joel Vallejo wrote:
>
>
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> Well, for one thing, a character in my campaign can now
>> speak...Pilipino..., with
>> just a couple of clicks instead of a couple of clicks and a few keystrokes.
>
>Actually as a Filipino, the language is Tagalog, and it is already
included in
>my version of heromaker.
Hm. I'd understood that there was a Pilipino, which is to Tagalog what
Spanglish is to Spanish (a cross-breeding with English).
---
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Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 08:25:42 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Best Source for Mucho Vehicles?
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At 08:36 AM 10/7/97 -0400, PopTholian@aol.com wrote:
>Which Champions supplement (or which Hero ftp site for that matter)
>has the most and/or best Vehicle write-ups? (I'm not asking anyone's
>opinion on how good the Hero Vehicle Rules are) I'm just looking for
>dozens of representative samples of various planes, trains & automobiles.
>I've looked around and it seems to be slim pickins on the www/net.
>So now I'm wondering which out of print supplement I need to dig up
>to get what I want. Thanks!
For super vehicles, VIPER has the largest selection.
For mundanes, get An Eye For An Eye.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 97 12:11:53 -0400
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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>> I've been wondering how many people use Heromaker.
Not me. I refuse to use a dos machine, and running Virtual PC on my
beloved Mac seems like overkill. I do use a very extensive Excel system
that has three printing options, automatic calculations (selct Energy
Blast, then choose 10d6, then add armor piercing, and the cost is all
figured automatically) for all powers/skills/disads/characteristics (incl
adv & disadvantages) and works like I do (since I wrote it). All of the
items are kept in other excel files as databases, so adding new powers is
easy, plus it prints great files that can even include a drawing in any
file format excel can import (tiff, pict, eps, or pcx, IIRC).
In short, I make do without Heromaker quite nicely (though I would love
to find a way to import heromaker .cha files!!)
Dave
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:19:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thunderbolts Write-ups?
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Jeremiah Driscoll writes:
> And Jolt... as I said before, time is crucial to me right now, and I'll
> post my own interpretations (taking yours into account!) as soon as I can.
Woops, I forgot about the annoying teen. Jolt:
STR 15 DEX 29 CON 15 BOD 10 INT 13 EGO 10
PRE 13 COM 14
PD 8 ED 18 SPD 6 REC 5 END 30 STN 26
Skills: KS: avengers 12-, acrobatics 15-, breakfall 15-, +1 DCV level.
Powers: 2d6 absorb energy to END, +24" running, +8d6 HA (energy), +5" superleap
(requires an acrobatics roll).
She might have other powers, and the energy absorbtion is a stretch --
supposedly her power comes from absorbing ambient energy around her, so
allowing absorbing other attacks isn't too much additional. The strength might
look high, but she doesn't seem to have too much trouble grabbing full-grown
humans and lugging them about (she has a tendency to be Miss 'I rescue innocent
bystanders').
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 00:10:35 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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At 11:43 PM 10/7/97 -0400, John Prins wrote:
>But environmental extremes are _different_ things from the person's _need_
>for air.
I think I would disagree with that. I could think of it as "a
person's _need_ for a certain range of tolerable temperatures" or "a
person's _need_ for a lack of a certain level of radiation."
>For example, does a desolid individual still give off heat (seen by
>thermographic vision?). If not, why should they be effected by temperature
>extremes? Does a desolid individual show up on an X-Ray? If not, why should
>they be harmed by extreme radiation?
>
I would think, for a character with *just* Desolid, yes, they would
show on IR or X-Ray. If they don't, they should buy Invisibilty to those
senses. I wouldn't give out that Power for free for someone who had an
interesting reason for their Force Field to dampen temperatures or X-Rays
(or some other reason that might make sense). I even have a player (a mage)
whose main defense is a spell that turns him Invisible *and* puts up a Force
Field (Linked Powers). But I wouldn't say, "Your Force Field bends light
around it, so just pay for the Force Field. That other 20+ point Power is
just a SFX."
>A lot of this should be covered by SFX - if my 'flame form' is my Desolid
>SFX, I'd hardly expect to be harmed by extreme heat, though I'd certainly
>have problems with extreme cold (my specific vulnerability).
>
It'd cost you, what, 2 points for the appropriate LS? What about
your example (sorry, I erased it) of being "not there" for SFX? I would
kinda expect not to be seen, detected, affected by just about everything.
Is this free?
>>However as a gm, i would require that it make sense.
>
><nod, nod> That's level-headed thinking if I ever saw it.
This mention of level-headed thinking has caused me to pause.
Someone let me know if I'm going off the deep end here, please.
>Have them describe
>the SFX of the desolid, and figure the weaknesses from that. If a particular
>environmental extreme shouldn't logically effect the SFX of the desolid, let
>the desolid character ignore it at no extra cost. If the desolid character
>decides he shouldn't need to breathe while desolid, though, make him pay for
>that (because breathing is specifically stated in the BBB writeup of Desolid).
>
I would generally sit down and talk about the effects of the Powers.
Then apply the costs to the effects described. I (*personally*) would
require the Desolid character to get any appropriate LS. Now, the few
characters with Desolid in my games don't have LS. That's because I hadn't
thought of it before now. I'll go back, talk to my players, and discuss how
their Powers work v. how they want their Powers to work. We can make up the
(in this case) small difference in points as we go.
I kind of envision Desolid as being the major Power of a character,
anyway. If it's all-encompassing, it tends to get expensive. This is how
it should be, and how it is.
It would be like taking "Light Manipulation" and complaining you
didn't get all the effects you wanted out of one EB. I feel the additional
effects should be paid for.
I usually come off as more flexible than this, really... : )
- Jerry
Reply-To: <scott2k@gte.net>
From: "Scott S." <scott2k@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:26:10 -0700
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> Personally, I think some specific rules for "environmental
effects"
> are needed, something akin to the Drowning Rules in the BBB. I'll try
and
> work on it.
>
> - Jerry
It seems whats needed is a scale and specific agreed effect, like Sahara
Heat = 1D6 NND Continuous Uncontrolled AOE ,Not Vs. Life support vs.
Extreme heat, for example. perhaps a different effect for cold, etc...,
with the damage increasing with the relative intensity of the environment?
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Reduced END Question
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Date: 07 Oct 1997 16:31:26 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "TB" == Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> writes:
>> Use of casual Strength is still an exertion of Strength, regardless of how
>> much Strength is used.
TB> I don't think that it is, any more than the fidgeting constantly done
TB> by a human body is.
Technically speaking, if a character does anything at all in his Action
Phase (that is, anything other than "nothing at all"), he spends at least 1
point of Endurance (possibly excepting use of powers with 0 Endurance
cost). It is an obscure little rule tucked into a corner of the rulebook
somewhere, but there it is.
TB> To put it another way, it makes no sense that you can tire somebody out
TB> by pestering them with Entangles or Grabs that are too weak for them to
TB> even notice.
Here is where we have a disagreement: I do not see them as being too weak
to be noticed. They are an annoyance, certainly, and sufficient annoyance
can wear one down.
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
\ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
From: "\"John Desmarais\" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
\"Michelle Knight\"" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 97 21:13:58
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Greensboro Hero Players (was: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?)
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On Tue, 07 Oct 1997 02:01:36 -0700, Michelle Knight wrote:
> Oh, BTW, if there are any Greensboro, NC area Hero System GM/Players
>out there who would be interested in welcoming a new player into their
>midst please feel free to e-mail me. I am moving to that area in early '98
>and would like to hook up with a group if possible. Thanks. :)
Well, I just moved to Winston-Salem, which is only about 20 miles down the road. I've
been playing and running Hero for several years and my girlfriend is interested in
starting (but I ain't found no players yet).
-=>John Desmarais
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 97 21:16:38
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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On Mon, 06 Oct 1997 22:34:43 -0500, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>At 04:20 PM 10/6/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> Yeah, I don't even both using the printer with it any more (the driver
>>for Canon printers really sucks; my BJ-200e always prints the last two
>>lines of any HM sheet on a separate page). Primarily I use it to do the
>>hard math work, then print to a text file which I then edit or use as a
>>reference.
>
>There's hard math in HERO? ;]
>
Oh, be nice, I've known many apparently intelligent people who simply could not do
basic arithmetic in their heads. Heck, if the numbers I'm dividing get too large I need to
whip out a scratch pad or I forget where I started before I finish.
-=>John D.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 14:19:49 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Reduced END Question
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At 04:31 PM 10/7/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Here is where we have a disagreement: I do not see them as being too weak
>to be noticed. They are an annoyance, certainly, and sufficient annoyance
>can wear one down.
And anyone who doesn't believe that has never watched "Family Matters."
---
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From: "David Nasset, Sr." <dnasset@gr.cc.wa.us>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:36:20 -0700
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-----Original Message-----
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Monday, October 06, 1997 8:15 PM
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
>On Mon, 6 Oct 1997, Filksinger wrote:
>
>> >While buying lots of Energy Defense may protect one from the
*damage*
>> >caused by some forms of bitter-cold attacks, it will not keep one
warm, it
>> >will not prevent hypothermia, it will not prevent freezing to
death due to
>> >prolonged exposure to such conditions.
>>
>> Let me make something clear here. _In my campaign_, that is
probably how I
>> would rule. However, no where in the _rulebook_ does it say this.
There is
>> nothing in the BBB that states that extreme cold or heat do
_anything_
>> beyond attack damage.
>
>Huh??? The BBB also fails to state that light which strikes a
boundary
>between media at a small enough angle will be completely reflected,
but
>I feel safe in assuming that it will in fact do so even in HERO
system
>campaigns.
Granted. However, that doesn't mean that we should automatically
assume that these effects are outside the rules, and that therefore
Desolid doesn't affect them. Assuming that there are other,
unmentioned effects of some situations is one thing, assuming that
they automatically sidestep certain powers is another.
Filksinger
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Reduced END Question
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:54:01 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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>
> Technically speaking, if a character does anything at all in his Action
> Phase (that is, anything other than "nothing at all"), he spends at least 1
> point of Endurance (possibly excepting use of powers with 0 Endurance
> cost). It is an obscure little rule tucked into a corner of the rulebook
> somewhere, but there it is.
>
Too obscure for me to have ever seen. Can you give us a page
number reference?
From: "David Nasset, Sr." <dnasset@gr.cc.wa.us>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:03:39 -0700
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On Monday, October 06, 1997 8:21 PM, you wrote,
> After I sent this out, I became worried that I came off like
a
>little know-it-all dink. Thanks for not getting upset.
Not at all. My life's goal (I intend to live until I suceed, and thus
achieve immortallity) is to know everything and always be right. I
won't get very far if I don't listen when people correct me.:)
> Also, (getting back to your original point) how is this the
most
>tragic of all scenarios? Could you perhaps toss me an example?
Certainly. It is the most tragic of all scenarios, or can be, because
no matter what, it always goes wrong. Consider Siamese twins
possessing only one set of certain absolutely necessary organs,
certain to die unless separated. When the separation is performed, one
of them _will_ die, and you have to choose who it will be.
A comic book example could be two worlds colliding extradimensionally,
and only one can survive. They each have populations in the billions.
Choose: Which world lives and which dies? Another could be a
spaceship, containing the last 800 members of a good and decent race,
who must land on Earth immediately or die. However, when they land, a
plague will be released, killing at least 1,000,000 humans. Choose:
Genocide or mass murder?
Filksinger
From: "David Nasset, Sr." <dnasset@gr.cc.wa.us>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:15:29 -0700
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>At 04:13 PM 10/5/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>I don't think I would play in your games. They are too limiting in
their
>>scenarios.
>>
>
>limiting? wait, they give the pc's a choice in matters, so they
limit? nno-ot!
No, limited in that certain types of scenarios are forbidden.
Personally, as a player, I would prefer to be able to, at least once,
play a "no-win" scenario. You, however, have decided that they are
unfair and should be forbidden. Your choice, but with a good GM I
_want_ to sometimes have my choices limited.
>>In this case, you are declaring that it is improper in a RPG to play
out
>>the greatest of all human tragedies- antimony.
>>
>
>or rather the greatest of human tragedies- false perception of
powerlessness.
>Heros are people who change things DESPITE it being 'impossible' to
do so. .
I get to play _that_ all the time. That is one of the most common
major theme in comics- winning against impossible odds. I want
something different, including, upon occasion, truly limited
scenarios. Detective stories where you really do have only one chance
to catch the villain. A tragic conflict between two equally right
propositions where one or the other _must_ lose.
So long as these are well made and only occasional, I _want_ limits,
even severe ones.
Filksinger
From: "David Nasset, Sr." <dnasset@gr.cc.wa.us>
Subject: Re: question #1. ..
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:18:02 -0700
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On Monday, October 06, 1997 11:16 PM, you wrote:
>At 11:01 PM 10/5/97 -0700, you wrote:
<snip>
>
>(confused look, funny hairdo)
>the gm can reject whatever he wants - just by saying "no, that desn't
work".
>The gm should not be made to justify his choices, but as always there
is just as
>much trouble if they go too far in the other direction.. . . . and
that's not a description of a gritty campaign in my book- that's juat
a good campaign. Gritty 'realistic' campaigns are more likely to have
dictatorial gm's who block players' actions by saying 'it's not
realistic' or 'that wouldn't work in the real world'.
Which sometimes is exactly the type of game I want to play in. So long
as it goes both ways, a GM who limits things to the "real world" is
not a problem for me, if that was the sort of game I signed on for.
Filksinger
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Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 15:21:03 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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At 11:10 PM 10/5/97 -0500, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>You know, this reminds me of a speculative fiction story I read once called
>"Blood & Dust". It postulates two alien intelligences playing a game (of
>the same name as the story) with Earth. Each has 3 "moves" consisting of
>either sparing or killing a single individual in the time stream. The goal
>is for the "Dust" player to destroy human civilization within his 3 moves,
>without "Blood" stopping him.
>
That was a good one. I always liked Roger Zelazney, and that one stuck in
my mind, too.
Filksinger
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Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 15:21:03 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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At 11:10 PM 10/5/97 -0500, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>You know, this reminds me of a speculative fiction story I read once called
>"Blood & Dust". It postulates two alien intelligences playing a game (of
>the same name as the story) with Earth. Each has 3 "moves" consisting of
>either sparing or killing a single individual in the time stream. The goal
>is for the "Dust" player to destroy human civilization within his 3 moves,
>without "Blood" stopping him.
>
That was a good one. I always liked Roger Zelazney, and that one stuck in
my mind, too.
Filksinger
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Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 15:22:47 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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At 11:10 PM 10/5/97 -0500, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>
>And if you eliminate Adolf early enough, who's to say that the new Germany
>will be Nazi at all? After all, Hitler brought more to the table than just
>his ostensible incompetence -- he also brought an amazing ability to
>manipulate people. The possibility exists that it REQUIRED a Hitler just to
>sell the country on the Nazi party.
>
Possibly. However, for a few years it looked like a toss-up which would win
supremacy in Germany- the Nazis or the Communists. Given the Communist's
behavior in the last century, I don't know how much of an improvement this
would be.
Filksinger
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Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 15:22:47 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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At 11:10 PM 10/5/97 -0500, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>
>And if you eliminate Adolf early enough, who's to say that the new Germany
>will be Nazi at all? After all, Hitler brought more to the table than just
>his ostensible incompetence -- he also brought an amazing ability to
>manipulate people. The possibility exists that it REQUIRED a Hitler just to
>sell the country on the Nazi party.
>
Possibly. However, for a few years it looked like a toss-up which would win
supremacy in Germany- the Nazis or the Communists. Given the Communist's
behavior in the last century, I don't know how much of an improvement this
would be.
Filksinger
From: "David Nasset, Sr." <dnasset@gr.cc.wa.us>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:28:54 -0700
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On Monday, October 06, 1997 11:32 PM, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au said:
>
>erally? then what's the original point(rhetorical)? i have that all
the time in my games-what i don't have is i situation in which there
is only ONE right way, moral or srtategic...
Then I misunderstood you. I was never talking about "one way only"
scenarios, though they could have their place. I was talking about two
way scenarios, no way out, and both ways are bad.
Filksinger
From: "David Nasset, Sr." <dnasset@gr.cc.wa.us>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:46:11 -0700
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On Tuesday, October 07, 1997 12:12 AM, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au said:
>And i Still don't see why i don't have this in my campaign! *lol*
Apparently, you do. I was talking about situations where there were
two (or more) outcomes, all bad, and that was all I noticed anyone
else talking about. When you came forward to the attack, I assumed you
were talking about the same thing. My apologies for not reading more
clearly.
<snip>
>I suppose the original poster thought that when i said all the stuff
i did, it precluded tense stand-off's and difficult choics.
Since you were attacking my position, and that's what I was talking
about, yes, I'm sorry, I did think that.
>What i meant (and i think i was pretty sure i was clear on) is that
when these things occur, there is more than one way out of them- an
infinite number of ways, based on how the pc's react.
Not neccessarilly. An example is babies that are Siamese twins with
only one set of necessary organs. They will die if they are not
separated, and only one gets enough organs to live.
You can argue that there are three outcomes (the doctors could do
nothing, and let them both die), but there are still only three: they
both die, one dies, the other dies.
>many people put up moral quandries like puzzles- i.e. here's the
problem, here's the solution. Personaly i >don't do that for puzzles
EITHER, but in any even a morality situation is NEVER that simple.
True. That, in fact, is the tragedy of antinomy- there _is no_
solution.
When I create such a scenario, the players may do whatever they wish,
depending upon their morals and ethics. However, sometimes (rarely),
the solutions are severely limited- there is no way out. This isn't
bad GMing, if done rarely, in a campaign where this level of emotional
impact and moral conflict is appropriate.
I think we agree that this all started as a misunderstanding.
Filksinger
From: "David Nasset, Sr." <dnasset@gr.cc.wa.us>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:58:31 -0700
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On Tuesday, October 07, 1997 7:04 AM, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>At 11:36 PM 10/6/97 -0500, Tokyo Mark wrote:
>>I have this story, was it Zelazny?Highly recommended as an example
of how
>>little changes can effect history. and as a cool story:)
>
>If I'm not mistaken, it IS Zelazny. Forget the short story
collection I
>found it in, something about unicorns.
>
Roger Zelazney, "Unicorn Gambit". The title story is about a man who
is playing chess with a unicorn for the survival of the human race.
I have always liked Zelazney, though some of his stories were very
strange. His Cronicles of Amber may be the best fantasy I ever read.
Filksinger
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 20:25:24 -0400 (EDT)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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>A comic book example could be two worlds colliding extradimensionally,
>and only one can survive. They each have populations in the billions.
>Choose: Which world lives and which dies?
Ah, I can hear PCs yanking out their own hair as you speak. But there really
isn't a 'moral' choice in this one, is there? More of a Catch-22 situation
(damned if you do, damned if you don't). Lacking any solid 'right' choice,
you might as well flip a coin...which is what I might expect a PC group to do:
Mighty Man:"So they each have about equal population?"
Sorcero:"Yes."
Mighty Man:"And each population is equally good?"
Sorcero:"Yes, no Hosts of Hell on either side as far as I know."
Mighty Man:"And one of them has to go or they both die."
Sorcero:"Yes, you've got it."
Mighty Man:"Evacuation possible?"
Sorcero:"Nope, we've got five minutes to choose."
Mighty Man:"Got a quarter?"
It all depends on your viewpoint in a situation like this - Mighty Man and
Sorcero aren't condemning billions of people to death, they're _saving_ half
of them by making that choice. And they can't be accused of favoritism if
they flip a coin...:-).
>Another could be a
>spaceship, containing the last 800 members of a good and decent race,
>who must land on Earth immediately or die. However, when they land, a
>plague will be released, killing at least 1,000,000 humans. Choose:
>Genocide or mass murder?
Certainly a moral quandry, but not as emotionally loaded as you make it out
to be. The term 'genocide' (as coined by Dr. Raphael Lemkin, in 1944) is
described as "extermination of a national or racial group as a planned
move." The PCs (probably) didn't set in motion the circumstances of the
alien's (upcoming) deaths, so it by strict definition isn't genocide.
<sorry to get up on a soapbox like this, but genocide is a _very_ loaded
term and shouldn't be waved around like this. As another example, people
have accused the 'white man' of committing 'genocide' by bringing influenza
to North and South America - which is utter nonsense, as nobody planned to
infect the american natives with European diseases>
Nobody could 'accuse' the PCs of committing 'genocide' by not allowing a
spaceship full of plague-bearing aliens to come to Earth. In fact, the
guilty party here is the aliens, who are willing to sacrifice 1 million
sentients to preserve their own existance. That's 1250 deaths for every
alien 'saved'. Anybody willing to exterminate 1250 innocent people just to
save his own life falls entirely within _my_ definition of 'evil'.
Anyway. The PCs didn't (I assume) infect these aliens with whatever's
killing them - therefore they can't be blamed if they die. OTOH, they _can_
be blamed for the deaths of 1,000,000 people if they knowingly allow the
aliens to land bearing this disease.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 20:47:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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On Mon, 6 Oct 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote:
> At 11:36 PM 10/6/97 -0500, Tokyo Mark wrote:
> >I have this story, was it Zelazny?Highly recommended as an example of how
> >little changes can effect history. and as a cool story:)
>
> If I'm not mistaken, it IS Zelazny. Forget the short story collection I
> found it in, something about unicorns.
Yes it is. It is called "The Game of Blood and Dust" and it can be found
in the collection titled "The Last Defender of Camelot". Vox, the story
you're thinking of is "Unicorn Variation", which can be found in the
collection called "Unicorn Variations".
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 20:58:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Judge, Jury and Executioner
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Oh well...
I talked to the two people who first told me about this trio and neither
of them can remember a*anything* useful about the characters (other than
the fact that Jury could duplicate into 12 people). I suppose that this
list could brainstorm up an acceptable set of powers for each... well?
Anyone game?
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
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***************************************************************************
From: "David Nasset, Sr." <dnasset@gr.cc.wa.us>
Subject: Carbon Copies
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:01:41 -0700
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Sorry about those extra copies. As much as I like some of the features
of Outlook Express, it's reply options are enough to drive me mad.
Filksinger
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Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 21:15:04 -0400
From: The Nez Master <nezmaster@ntr.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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At 12:26 PM 10/7/97 -0700, you wrote:
>> Personally, I think some specific rules for "environmental
>effects"
>> are needed, something akin to the Drowning Rules in the BBB. I'll try
>and
>> work on it.
>>
>> - Jerry
>It seems whats needed is a scale and specific agreed effect, like Sahara
>Heat = 1D6 NND Continuous Uncontrolled AOE ,Not Vs. Life support vs.
>Extreme heat, for example. perhaps a different effect for cold, etc...,
>with the damage increasing with the relative intensity of the environment?
>
>
actually what I would find more useful and interesting is some special
effects for desolid, and their defined weaknesses. Here's a few of mine,
I'd like to see others.
I'm in the middle ground ont his thing. I think that sometimes people don't
define 'enough' sets of weaknesses for their atttacks. I also consider
'desolid' a defense, so I often give nnd's 'affects desolid' for free. This
*IS* a house rule though, because I think Affects desolid being an entire
1/4 advanatdge is too expensive for many things, and that desolid is too
powerful.
After all, a 100 pd and 100 ed resistant would cost 200 points (appx) plus
you get the effect of being immune to traps/walls/and more.
On the whole desoid is a useful affect, and certainly simulates comics, but
it's a pain in the ass in game play sometime. (so is invisibility
sometimes...)
The desolid's I deal with are
Character FX Weakness
Aspect Vibrating/altering density Vibratory, mass affecting, gravity
Wraith Shadow form Light based,
Proteus Being liquid energy (he got a limitation +1/4)
sparkle Becoming light Darkness, drains, electrical
What weaknesses do people take for astral plane, dimension shifting, whatever.
What would you sue for becoming sound, whats a better one for light...
Here's my next arguement. If desolid provides life support for free, (20
points worth it would seem - making it's 40 point cost questionable) --
should you force people who should be affected by life support to buy
(affected by life support +1/4) as a limitation, or can it be the weakness.
WEakness -- breathes, exists in this plane.
I'm really not anxious to make desolid more powerful in my game, i'm just
curious.
Not to mention 9 out of every ten effects i have seen would have the same
weakness, hence making desolid less colorful.
Proteus (in the above) has life support versus cold. (he's not really
liquid, more protoplasm), I really don't see a problem with requiring life
support to get it, or adding an additional feature to desolid, +10 to
ignore enviromental effects (ie linking life support only usuable while
desolid cost end)
However as a gm, i would require that it make sense. ok, why don't you need
to breath while your desolid. If you do need to breath, why doesn't gas
affect you, if you see, why can't flash affect you, etc...in my game nnd's,
flash, and other sense affecting stuff work. And I still have players who
think desolid is too powerful sometimes, and I agree.
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:50:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com>
Subject: CHAR: Benisato
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[whew... almost done with this bunch! Of course, if you are familier with
the film and have been keeping count, then you know that the *next* two
are probably _the_ toughest two to figure out.]
BENISATO
Designers Notes:
Benisato is a truly odd character. Her powers involve snakes; she can
literally summon hundreds of the creatures, as well as shed her skin and
mesmerize her victims. She is one of the more dangerous foes Jubei faces,
and it is only the intervention of Kagero that allows him to escape her
clutches.
Description:
Benisato is tall and slim, with an attractive face and build. She tends
to dress in a long kimono and a hooded straw sunhat. Several times,
however, she shows up wearing nothing at all. At one point, she is seen
carrying a biwa (the Japanese lute) with a sword blade concealed in the
neck.
Powers Notes:
First of all, Benisato can summon snakes... *lots* of snakes. These
snakes can come from seemingly anywhere; at one point they drop from the
ceiling of a temple, or untwine from around her body, or... well... watch
the film to see where else the snakes crawl from (this is a family show
after all...). Once summond, she can easily control them to do her
bidding, using the snakes to both restrain and attack foes. For the
typcal Benisato summonded snake, I used the Asp Viper from the _Hero
Bestiary_.
She also has several powers reminiscent of snakes, including the ability
to mesmerize her opponents, freezing them in place while she prepares to
finish them off. She can also generate illusions, usually relating to
snakes. For example: At one point she seemed to be covered in snake tatoos
which then 'came alive' and attacked Jubei. She also has an interesting
escape power; the ability to vanish (ie. Teleport), leaving a cast-off
skin behind.
Disadvantages Notes:
Benisato, as with all rest of the Eight Devils, is a cold-hearted,
ruthless killer. She is also Gemma's occasional bedpartner, a fact she
needles Yurimaru about at one point. Since she then fails to complete the
assignment given her, Yurimaru disposes of her in a rather painful
manner.
The Character:
STAT VAL COST
Str 13 3
Dex 23 39
Con 15 10
Body 13 6
Int 18 8
Ego 20 20
Pre 20 10
Com 20 5
PD 6 3
ED 6 3
Spd 5 17
Rec 6 0
End 60 15
Stun 30 2
Char Total 141
Power Total 284
Total Cost 425
COST POWERS & SKILLS
91 Summon: Snakes (Asp Viper: 56 point creature), Max of 1,024
Snakes, 0 END, Full Phase
30 EC: Snake-like form and mesmerisim powers
30 12d6 Mind Control, Telepathic, Single command - "Don't Move",
Requires eye contact (-1/2), END 7
22 6d6 Mind Control, AoE - Radius 6" (+1 1/4), Telepathic, Only vs
Snakes (-1), END 7
30 12d6 Mental Illusions, END 6
24 30" Teleport, Leaves cast off 'skin' behind (-1/4), END 6
23 1d6+1 HKA, +1 OCV, 0 END, IAF: Sword in neck of biwa (a form of
lute)
3 Climbing 14-
3 Concealment 13-
3 Contortionist 14-
9 Disguise 14-
3 High Society 13-
3 PS: Play Biwa 14-
3 Seduction 13-
3 Stealth 14-
3 Tracking 13-
1 WF: Sword
Disadvantages
100 Base
15 Psych: Amoral and ruthless
15 Psych: Reckless, tends to play with prey
10 Psych: Obeys Orders
15 Rep: One of the Eight Devils of Kimon 11- (Ext)
10 Rivalry: Yurimaru (romantic, superior)
260 Snakes... why'd it have to be snakes... Bonus
(Benisato created by Yoshiaki Kawajiri, character sheet created by Michael
Surbrook based on material written by David Kuijt)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Reduced END Question
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 07 Oct 1997 22:12:32 -0400
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>>>>> "BW" == Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com> writes:
BW> Too obscure for me to have ever seen. Can you give us a page
BW> number reference?
Champions Deluxe, page 168, "Endurance"
Some actions don't have a Strength listed; in such cases, a
character will spend 1 END. This includes such maneuvers as Block,
Dodge, or firing a weapon.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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>>>>> "JD" == John Desmarais <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> writes:
JD> Oh, be nice, I've known many apparently intelligent people who simply
JD> could not do basic arithmetic in their heads.
Calculus is a killer. Once one has managed to wrap one's mind around
calculus, basic arithmetic becomes impossible without a calculator.
JD> Heck, if the numbers I'm dividing get too large I need to whip out a
JD> scratch pad or I forget where I started before I finish.
Me, I've been using HPs for the longest time.
But recently I found someone had written a Champions characteristics
calculator for Newton. So, now I find myself pondering the thought of a
"translation" of Heromaker. :)
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Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 23:43:54 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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>actually what I would find more useful and interesting is some special
>effects for desolid, and their defined weaknesses. Here's a few of mine,
>I'd like to see others.
>The desolid's I deal with are
>
>Character FX Weakness
>Aspect Vibrating/altering density Vibratory, mass affecting, gravity
>Wraith Shadow form Light based,
>Proteus Being liquid energy (he got a limitation +1/4)
>sparkle Becoming light Darkness, drains, electrical
>
>What weaknesses do people take for astral plane, dimension shifting, whatever.
>What would you sue for becoming sound, whats a better one for light...
SFX Weaknesses
'Astral Form' Magical attacks
Dimensional Rotation Gravitic, 'Dimensional' or Teleportation-based attacks(*)
Smoke Form Wind/Pressure/Forced Air attacks (including many explosive
effects, like concussion grenades).
Water Form Heat-based and Dehydration Attacks
Electrical Form Conductive substance attacks (grounding out), Electrical
and Magnetic attacks
Light Form Light-based attacks (IMHO more appropriate than Darkness
based attacks)
Psionic Sheath/ Mental Energy (like psionic telekinesis or EBs, not just
Spirit Form "normal' mental attacks)
Vibrational Sonic, Vibrational attacks
Attunement
Super-Dodge(**) Area Effect or Explosive attacks
Sonic Form Sonics, Vacuum-based attacks
Fire Form Water/Cold-Based Attacks,
Molecular Dispersion Force-Field effects (no spaces to slip through/by)
Composite Swarm(***) Area Effect or Explosive attacks
Non-Existance(****) Magical, Cosmic and Dimensional attacks
(*)Note that if I allowed this particular SFX in the campaign, these attacks
_would_ become 'reasonably common' :-)
(**)Let's not argue this one _again_, okay?
(***) AKA 'turning into a bunch of small bugs'
(****)i.e. becoming a living 'hole in reality' or 'living dimensional gateway'
>Here's my next arguement. If desolid provides life support for free, (20
>points worth it would seem - making it's 40 point cost questionable) --
>should you force people who should be affected by life support to buy
>(affected by life support +1/4) as a limitation, or can it be the weakness.
>WEakness -- breathes, exists in this plane.
It's not that Desolid provides per se 'Life Support'. For example, if I
decide that my Desolid character can breathe while desolid, that person is
vulnerable to gases (over and above the Desolid vulnerability). However, I'd
also allow that person the option of _not_ being able to breathe while
Desolid (not just holding breath, actually cannot take a breath while
Desolid) as a SFX thing, and they wouldn't be vulnerable to gases (and would
blow extra END as per suffocation rules). Of course, that's a house rule.
But environmental extremes are _different_ things from the person's _need_
for air. For example, does a desolid individual still give off heat (seen by
thermographic vision?). If not, why should they be effected by temperature
extremes? Does a desolid individual show up on an X-Ray? If not, why should
they be harmed by extreme radiation?
A lot of this should be covered by SFX - if my 'flame form' is my Desolid
SFX, I'd hardly expect to be harmed by extreme heat, though I'd certainly
have problems with extreme cold (my specific vulnerability).
Personally, I base a lot of my preconceptions of Desolid on the Shadowcat
character - who could breathe air (and got hit by gases, BTW), but wasn't
bothered by extreme temperatures while desolid (once, she walked for several
minutes through lava - one of the Garrok episodes when he was still large
and glassy but half melted).
You really have to break down 'what is an attack' to figure out if it would
effect a desolid SFX. Heat is atomic/molecular vibration, so it surely
wouldn't bother Astral Forms, or the molecularly dispersed (too thin a
medium for transfer), but it might effect gas/smoke forms and would
definitely effect liquid forms.
'Hard Radiation' is either particle based (alpha,beta) or electromagnetic
(gamma, x-ray, microwaves). I'd have a hard time seeing alpha/beta radiation
affecting most desolids (which aren't effected by most physical attacks),
though quite a few would suffer from electromagnetic radiation (but not all).
Pressure and vacuum would effect some forms, but not others - for example,
water is _very_ incompressible. High pressure extremes shouldn't bother a
water-form desolid at all. However, a vacuum effect would disperse a water
form into a thin gas, which might be painful :-). Neither would bother a
light-form, though.
>However as a gm, i would require that it make sense.
<nod, nod> That's level-headed thinking if I ever saw it. Have them describe
the SFX of the desolid, and figure the weaknesses from that. If a particular
environmental extreme shouldn't logically effect the SFX of the desolid, let
the desolid character ignore it at no extra cost. If the desolid character
decides he shouldn't need to breathe while desolid, though, make him pay for
that (because breathing is specifically stated in the BBB writeup of Desolid).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
X-Sender: nezmaster@mail.ntr.net
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 00:15:22 -0400
From: The Nez Master <nezmaster@ntr.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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At 12:26 PM 10/7/97 -0700, you wrote:
>> Personally, I think some specific rules for "environmental
>effects"
>> are needed, something akin to the Drowning Rules in the BBB. I'll try
>and
>> work on it.
>>
>> - Jerry
>It seems whats needed is a scale and specific agreed effect, like Sahara
>Heat = 1D6 NND Continuous Uncontrolled AOE ,Not Vs. Life support vs.
>Extreme heat, for example. perhaps a different effect for cold, etc...,
>with the damage increasing with the relative intensity of the environment?
>
>
actually what I would find more useful and interesting is some special
effects for desolid, and their defined weaknesses. Here's a few of mine,
I'd like to see others.
I'm in the middle ground ont his thing. I think that sometimes people don't
define 'enough' sets of weaknesses for their atttacks. I also consider
'desolid' a defense, so I often give nnd's 'affects desolid' for free. This
*IS* a house rule though, because I think Affects desolid being an entire
1/4 advanatdge is too expensive for many things, and that desolid is too
powerful.
After all, a 100 pd and 100 ed resistant would cost 200 points (appx) plus
you get the effect of being immune to traps/walls/and more.
On the whole desoid is a useful affect, and certainly simulates comics, but
it's a pain in the ass in game play sometime. (so is invisibility
sometimes...)
The desolid's I deal with are
Character FX Weakness
Aspect Vibrating/altering density Vibratory, mass affecting, gravity
Wraith Shadow form Light based,
Proteus Being liquid energy (he got a limitation +1/4)
sparkle Becoming light Darkness, drains, electrical
What weaknesses do people take for astral plane, dimension shifting, whatever.
What would you sue for becoming sound, whats a better one for light...
Here's my next arguement. If desolid provides life support for free, (20
points worth it would seem - making it's 40 point cost questionable) --
should you force people who should be affected by life support to buy
(affected by life support +1/4) as a limitation, or can it be the weakness.
WEakness -- breathes, exists in this plane.
I'm really not anxious to make desolid more powerful in my game, i'm just
curious.
Not to mention 9 out of every ten effects i have seen would have the same
weakness, hence making desolid less colorful.
Proteus (in the above) has life support versus cold. (he's not really
liquid, more protoplasm), I really don't see a problem with requiring life
support to get it, or adding an additional feature to desolid, +10 to
ignore enviromental effects (ie linking life support only usuable while
desolid cost end)
However as a gm, i would require that it make sense. ok, why don't you need
to breath while your desolid. If you do need to breath, why doesn't gas
affect you, if you see, why can't flash affect you, etc...in my game nnd's,
flash, and other sense affecting stuff work. And I still have players who
think desolid is too powerful sometimes, and I agree.
X-Sender: nezmaster@mail.ntr.net
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 00:15:25 -0400
From: The Nez Master <nezmaster@ntr.net>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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>> Also, (getting back to your original point) how is this the
>most
>>tragic of all scenarios? Could you perhaps toss me an example?
>
>Certainly. It is the most tragic of all scenarios, or can be, because
>no matter what, it always goes wrong. Consider Siamese twins
>possessing only one set of certain absolutely necessary organs,
>certain to die unless separated. When the separation is performed, one
>of them _will_ die, and you have to choose who it will be.
>
My players would argue for awhile, and then work on the real solution.
Finding a cure, organ donors, some way of allowing them both to live. And
as a gm, if they came up with a valid solution, i'd let them find it. (note
using organ donations for this instance, so whatever gm controls reality
sometimes agrees with this gm style. Of course, lots of 11< - 13 < doctors
fail there roll after all the modifiers :))
>A comic book example could be two worlds colliding extradimensionally,
>and only one can survive. They each have populations in the billions.
>Choose: Which world lives and which dies?
Players examine both worlds. Players argue over having the right to decide,
however it was given to them. Players try to alter things so worlds don't
collide, or battle whoever put them in this position,or whatever.
Another could be a
>spaceship, containing the last 800 members of a good and decent race,
>who must land on Earth immediately or die. However, when they land, a
>plague will be released, killing at least 1,000,000 humans. Choose:
>Genocide or mass murder?
>
Or having them land in an airtight quarantied enviroment, repairing
whatever is making htem land, and sending them into space. This one was easy.
The only way there are no win scenarios, is if a bad gm DEMANBDS a no win
scenario. Good players can usually write a win if the gm will be tolerant
and accept reasonable answers. There are times when players won't find an
answer, does that mean there isn't one? i learned a long time ago that if I
set up a deathtrap and then put myself in it, fixing everything so that I
can not see anyway out, it's usually teh exact right lethality for 4-5
players to find a way out of it.
Even if everything I thought of was accounted for.
So if i provide my players with a no win situation, usually they will win
anyway, just to spite me...:)
>Filksinger
>
>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:48:49 -0700
From: Eric Chaves <rambler@sowest.net>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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>As a GM of this game, I would be of the opinion that "It would be VERY VERY
>bad to kill Hitler" because of the changes in the timeline that would
>result, etc. Is this offensive to anyone? Does it sound like I have a
>Supremesist Agenda?
On the other hand, it could not make much of a difference. I've heard one
"theory" of time travel where the time line would attempt to correct
itself. To use the given example, you may go back in time, kill Hitler,
come back to the present and find out that someone else did the same thing
Hitler would have done. The time line has changed very little.
Geek Code
****************************************************************************
GCS d++ H s:+ !g !p au+ a- w++ v++ C++++ UL+ P? L+ 3- E? N+++ K- W--- M++ !V
po--- Y+ t++ 5 j R++ G'' tv++ b++ D++ B--- e- u** h+ f+ r n+ y**
****************************************************************************
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:52:35 -0700
From: Eric Chaves <rambler@sowest.net>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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>There is a time/dimensional travel novel where our hero finds himself
>walking along a country road. He stops to ask a young boy where he is and
>realizses (in the course of conversation) that the child is (in fact)
>Adolf Hitler. He stands ther and struggles with this fact, but finally
>decides to let the child live. Why? Because he decides he has no right
>to judge the boy at this age, he cannot know for certain that young Adolf
>will go and comit his great crimes (at least not in *this* universe/time).
>The boy also has done nothing wrong (yet) and (to him) it seems wrong to
>punish him for something he *might* do. Of course, he does have to deal
>with the fact that he may be wrong...
>
To turn the tables on PCs like this, have THEM walking down a country road
and have someone come out and try to kill them for things they *might* do
in the future. And have the future heros have a perfectly justifiable
explination
Geek Code
****************************************************************************
GCS d++ H s:+ !g !p au+ a- w++ v++ C++++ UL+ P? L+ 3- E? N+++ K- W--- M++ !V
po--- Y+ t++ 5 j R++ G'' tv++ b++ D++ B--- e- u** h+ f+ r n+ y**
****************************************************************************
From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 01:37:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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In a message dated 97-10-07 23:58:26 EDT, you write:
<< I have always liked Zelazney, though some of his stories were very
strange. His Cronicles of Amber may be the best fantasy I ever read.
Filksinger >>
I agree wholeheartedly... the Amber series is by far the best series fantasy
I've read so far, and I would encourage anyone who hasn't read it to do so.
'Lynx
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 11:57:29 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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First off, this was a lovely post, Cap.
At 04:14 AM 10/8/97 -0700, Capt. Spith wrote:
<Siamese Twins example>
>> My players would argue for awhile, and then work on the real solution.
>> Finding a cure, organ donors, some way of allowing them both to live. And
>> as a gm, if they came up with a valid solution, i'd let them find it. (note
>> using organ donations for this instance, so whatever gm controls reality
>> sometimes agrees with this gm style. Of course, lots of 11< - 13 < doctors
>> fail there roll after all the modifiers :))
>
> That's making quite a bold assumption; that there is a solution of
>that type... This one is skirting the borderline, but it would really
>have to depend on the GM/Worldview as to whether there is, in fact, a
>viable solution....
>
This is very true. The previous answer obviously assumes a certain
amount of either super-science or magic. I had assumed that their was *no
way* to implant the necessary organs, and thus it was antinomy.
<Worlds Collide example>
>> Players examine both worlds. Players argue over having the right to decide,
>> however it was given to them. Players try to alter things so worlds don't
>> collide, or battle whoever put them in this position,or whatever.
>
And, because the scenario was set up a certain way, the Players'
indecision could cause *both* worlds to perish. It could be as simple as
the Spectre showing up and telling the Justice League, "I can only save one
world, and will let you decide which, O Bastions of Goodness." I mean, if
the Spectre (the Avatar of the Wrath of God) can't save both worlds, how can
the Justice League (especially if they're a 250-pt each Justice League).
> Sure, that's EASY! we'll just reroute the galactic forces of the
>multiverse to make the worlds miss each other! This scenario MIGHT have
>a 'win-win' solution IF the PCs were on the level of Demigods or better,
>but otherwise, it's pretty generous to allow them to even have a chance
>at saving one.
>
Well, I of course thought of Crisis (DC) when presented with this.
The players *were* allowed to do something, and they saved *parts* of *some*
of the worlds, but their were serious repurcussions afterwards...
I think that "no-win" situations do have their place. Obviously,
some on the list (and I assume elsewhere) don't feel the same. So, if there
is a Player in your game who dislikes these situations, either don't throw
them in, or do it sparingly. I'd treat it just like any other subject that
my Players may want to avoid. (As an example of that type of subject, I
often find it uncomfortable to roleplay Romance, so there is very little
"on-screen" in my games.)
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 12:03:11 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Judge, Jury and Executioner
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At 06:28 AM 10/8/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 08:58 PM 10/7/97 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>>Oh well...
>>
>>I talked to the two people who first told me about this trio and neither
>>of them can remember a*anything* useful about the characters (other than
>>the fact that Jury could duplicate into 12 people). I suppose that this
>>list could brainstorm up an acceptable set of powers for each... well?
>>Anyone game?
>
> Well, just for the sake of a little brainstorming, I suppose Judge could
>be a mentalist with Telepathy and Retrocognition, and Executioner could be
>a black-hooded fellow with a big broadaxe.
> That, just to start.
>
Personally, I'd like to stay away from the "black-hooded, big axe"
look for Executioner. Maybe a more modern form of execution? Lethal
injection, electrocution? Maybe he's a one-man "firing squad."
Jury's dupes could each have a slightly (or entirely) different
personality... Maybe Vulnerability to Entangle (is that possible): easily
sequestered (sp?) : )
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 12:05:33 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>I am a newcomer to Champions and use heromaker heavily to help me understand
>the rules. I have created a whole scenario using this to generate my
>characters. I don't know about youz guyz but I think it has helped me
>understand the rules.
>
Several of my own Players have benefitted from HeroMaker. I've
gotten a phone call from one of them, he was using HM and wanted me to
explain something about it... It's helped them understand the game and
character mechanics, and especially how their characters are built.
- Jerry
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 97 07:22:36 UT
From: "Jeff Tolle" <Trigon@classic.msn.com>
Subject: RE: Greensboro Hero Players (was: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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We just started a game here in Greensboro, and we play fairly regularly (not
like we did in college... You know, before we had jobs, spouses, children,
etc.) We are always willing to accept new players. If you are interested in
running or playing (either of you) E-mail me - Trigon@msn.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-champ-l@omg.org On Behalf Of "John Desmarais"
<John.Desmarais@ibm.net> "Michelle Knight"
Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 1997 12:35 AM
To: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Greensboro Hero Players (was: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?)
On Tue, 07 Oct 1997 02:01:36 -0700, Michelle Knight wrote:
> Oh, BTW, if there are any Greensboro, NC area Hero System GM/Players
>out there who would be interested in welcoming a new player into their
>midst please feel free to e-mail me. I am moving to that area in early '98
>and would like to hook up with a group if possible. Thanks. :)
Well, I just moved to Winston-Salem, which is only about 20 miles down the
road. I've
been playing and running Hero for several years and my girlfriend is
interested in
starting (but I ain't found no players yet).
-=>John Desmarais
From: "David Nasset, Sr." <dnasset@gr.cc.wa.us>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 00:24:17 -0700
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On Tuesday, October 07, 1997 7:25 PM, John and Ron Prins said
>>A comic book example could be two worlds colliding
extradimensionally,
>>and only one can survive. They each have populations in the
billions.
>>Choose: Which world lives and which dies?
>
>Ah, I can hear PCs yanking out their own hair as you speak. But there
really
>isn't a 'moral' choice in this one, is there? More of a Catch-22
situation
>(damned if you do, damned if you don't). Lacking any solid 'right'
choice,
>you might as well flip a coin...which is what I might expect a PC
group to do:
Possibly. However, antinomy isn't always a quandry. It is, if the
situation is sufficiently bad, a tradgedy, not a quandry per se.
>It all depends on your viewpoint in a situation like this - Mighty
Man and
>Sorcero aren't condemning billions of people to death, they're
_saving_ half
>of them by making that choice. And they can't be accused of
favoritism if
>they flip a coin...:-).
True. Now, make them many good friends, on both worlds, before this
begins. And they can't save one.
It is a tradgedy, not necessarily a quandry.
>>Another could be a
>>spaceship, containing the last 800 members of a good and decent
race,
>>who must land on Earth immediately or die. However, when they land,
a
>>plague will be released, killing at least 1,000,000 humans. Choose:
>>Genocide or mass murder?
>
>Certainly a moral quandry, but not as emotionally loaded as you make
it out
>to be. The term 'genocide' (as coined by Dr. Raphael Lemkin, in 1944)
is
>described as "extermination of a national or racial group as a
planned
>move." The PCs (probably) didn't set in motion the circumstances of
the
>alien's (upcoming) deaths, so it by strict definition isn't genocide.
<snip>
The aliens will land and survive unless the players take action that
causes them to die. Deliberately knowingly taking an action that will
result in the extermination of a sentient species matches that
definition.
You pointed out that the PCs aren't responsible for the plague. True.
However, I am not responsible for the human need to breathe. I didn't
say the aliens needed to land because of a plague, or that the aliens
even know about the plague, merely that their landing will release a
plague. The aliens could be doomed because of a need to breathe, and
the plague could be neither of their bringing, or even their
knowledge.
<sorry to get up on a soapbox like this, but genocide is a _very_
loaded
term and shouldn't be waved around like this. As another example,
people
have accused the 'white man' of committing 'genocide' by bringing
influenza
to North and South America - which is utter nonsense, as nobody
planned to
infect the american natives with European diseases>
True, but irrellevant. The heroes aren't unknowingly causing the
extinction of these aliens, they are knowingly causing the extinction
of these aliens. That they didn't start it does not make it on the
same level as the white man bringing diseases to the New World.
>Anyway. The PCs didn't (I assume) infect these aliens with whatever's
>killing them - therefore they can't be blamed if they die.
If I knowingly don't close a valve on a dam, opened by Dr. Destroyer,
thus allowing the resulting flood to wash away a town, then I am
responsible for the destruction of the town. If I deliberately prevent
others from doing so, then I am even more responsible. If they prevent
the aliens from landing, knowing that they will die if they do not
land, then the PCs _are_ responsible for their deaths.
OTOH, they _can_
>be blamed for the deaths of 1,000,000 people if they knowingly allow
the
>aliens to land bearing this disease.
If they take an action, the result of which is extinction for these
aliens, then they cannot be held responsible, but if they take no
action resulting in 1,000,000 deaths, they can be held responsible?
Sorry, I don't think I can accept an argument that a person is not
responsible for the results of his own actions, but is responsible for
the results of inaction. In both cases, he is responsible.
Granted, it could be argued that there are different levels of
culpability and moral "wrongness" here. You argue that allowing the
aliens to land causes so many more deaths that it is better to stop
them. Some people might consider taking action that results in the
complete extinction of a sentient race to be genocide, and thus
morally worse than even 1,000,000 deaths.
This is the biggest trouble with antinomy. In order to be antinomy, it
effectively requires custom fitting, so to speak. It is difficult, if
not impossible, to create antinomy knowing the person who will have
the experience very well.
Suppose the plague was released by Dr. Destroyer? Suppose it was about
to escape, and could only be stopped by beaming it aboard the alien
ship? In both cases, extermination is the result of action, mass death
the result of inaction.
These are simply _possible_ examples of antinomy. What sort of
problems they cause, or if they are truly antinomy to the players, is
up to them, of course.
Filksinger
From: "David Nasset, Sr." <dnasset@gr.cc.wa.us>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 00:31:18 -0700
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>Yes it is. It is called "The Game of Blood and Dust" and it can be
found
>in the collection titled "The Last Defender of Camelot". Vox, the
story
>you're thinking of is "Unicorn Variation", which can be found in the
>collection called "Unicorn Variations".
Oops.
You'd think I'd remember that, as I once stole the plot of "The Last
Defender of Camelot" for a game.
Filksinger
From: "David Nasset, Sr." <dnasset@gr.cc.wa.us>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 01:02:02 -0700
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On Tuesday, October 07, 1997 9:46 PM, The Nez Master said:
<snip a number of 'escapes')
>The only way there are no win scenarios, is if a bad gm DEMANBDS a no
win
>scenario. Good players can usually write a win if the gm will be
tolerant
>and accept reasonable answers. There are times when players won't
find an
>answer, does that mean there isn't one? i learned a long time ago
that if I
>set up a deathtrap and then put myself in it, fixing everything so
that I
>can not see anyway out, it's usually teh exact right lethality for
4-5
>players to find a way out of it.
>Even if everything I thought of was accounted for.
It doesn't take a bad GM to create a 'no win' scenario. If I want to
play a very broad set of experiences in my games, I _need_ the GM to
occassionally force things. No win scenarios. Puzzles with only one
answer. Mysteries where if I miss the clues, the villain escapes. This
is not necessarily a bad GM forcing things on his players, sometimes
this is what I _want_ to play as a character, and sometimes this is
realistic. In the case of the Siamese twins, this occured only a few
months ago. The doctors didn't fail to save both because they were
incompetent, but because sometimes that's just the way it is.
>So if i provide my players with a no win situation, usually they will
win
>anyway, just to spite me...:)
One of my favorite Paranoia games had exactly that happen to me. The
one I mentioned about a week ago. It is fun when that happens, but
sometimes I, as a player, want a one answer or even no answer
scenario.
Filksinger
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 04:14:06 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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The Nez Master wrote:
(Challenge against 'no-win' scenarios)
> > Consider Siamese twins
> >possessing only one set of certain absolutely necessary organs,
> >certain to die unless separated. When the separation is performed, one
> >of them _will_ die, and you have to choose who it will be.
> >
>
> My players would argue for awhile, and then work on the real solution.
> Finding a cure, organ donors, some way of allowing them both to live. And
> as a gm, if they came up with a valid solution, i'd let them find it. (note
> using organ donations for this instance, so whatever gm controls reality
> sometimes agrees with this gm style. Of course, lots of 11< - 13 < doctors
> fail there roll after all the modifiers :))
That's making quite a bold assumption; that there is a solution of
that type... This one is skirting the borderline, but it would really
have to depend on the GM/Worldview as to whether there is, in fact, a
viable solution....
> >A comic book example could be two worlds colliding extradimensionally,
> >and only one can survive. They each have populations in the billions.
> >Choose: Which world lives and which dies?
> Players examine both worlds. Players argue over having the right to decide,
> however it was given to them. Players try to alter things so worlds don't
> collide, or battle whoever put them in this position,or whatever.
Sure, that's EASY! we'll just reroute the galactic forces of the
multiverse to make the worlds miss each other! This scenario MIGHT have
a 'win-win' solution IF the PCs were on the level of Demigods or better,
but otherwise, it's pretty generous to allow them to even have a chance
at saving one.
> Another could be a
> >spaceship, containing the last 800 members of a good and decent race,
> >who must land on Earth immediately or die. However, when they land, a
> >plague will be released, killing at least 1,000,000 humans. Choose:
> >Genocide or mass murder?
> >
> Or having them land in an airtight quarantied enviroment, repairing
> whatever is making htem land, and sending them into space. This one was easy.
IF you can find/create such an environment IN TIME, and make sure the
aliens will be completely cooperative in the use of it. Or maybe their
technology needs are too advanced for the possibility of repair on
Earth...
> The only way there are no win scenarios, is if a bad gm DEMANDS a no win
> scenario. Good players can usually write a win if the gm will be tolerant
> and accept reasonable answers.
That really depends on one's personal definition of a 'reasonable
answer'. I would consider some of your suggestions for solutions
unreasonable in many possible reality levels that are commonly played.
In fact, allow me to present my own 'no-win' scenario from my current
game:
'The Aliens' are based on the moon and consider Humans to be too
barbaric to be allowed into space. Any spaceship seen leaving Earth
will be destroyed be The Aliens, to protect the rest of the Galaxy from
them. An attack on 'The Aliens' will bring down a large-scale attack
from the homeworld. So humans are stuck on Earth (at least until they
can - as a race - become peaceful and non-aggressive). A group of
humans did try to negotiate with 'The Aliens', but there would be no
compromise.
The only solution here is to eventually engage in a war with The
Aliens. The decisions to be made is when and how. And I don't think
that's a bad thing (game-wise). I would think that most real-life wars
come from one side (or more) being in a 'no-win' situation. I don't
think there's anything wrong with a GM presenting situations with no
happy solutions; it's simply one more aspect of the game genre, which
boils down to people (players/characters) trying to make decisions about
how to affect and react to their world. NOT ever having 'no-win'
scenarios LIMITS the possibilities for roleplaying.
A couple of years ago, the Spider-Man titles ran a cross-title epic
called Maximum Carnage where (very basically) a super-mass-murder and
his team of like-minded killers perpetrated a swath of bloody death
through Manhattan. SM ultimately had to ask held from an anti-hero
killer to stop them, by promising to let the anti-hero killer go free
when they were successful. At the end of it all, Spidey ultimately went
back on his word and sent the antiherokiller back to prison. This was,
for him, a bad situation all around since the greater good (saving of
lives) was at the expense of a lesser evil (going back of his promise,
which is really a big deal for Spidey).
Moral quandries without easy answers are a part of the Hero genre,
and are wonderful opportunities for roleplaying. If a PC can just whip
up a dimensional oscillator to prevent the imminent destruction of an
alternate dimansional planet, it reduces the impact of potential
consequences for a player/character's actions. Players who put a lot of
effort into their character creation tend to want to have their
characters tested; I've actually learned things about the characters
I've created when they were put in situations I hadn't expected. It's
like when writers find that their characters start 'writing themselves',
a well-conceived character can develop a life of his/her/it's own, and
can be a source of great interest to the player to 'find out' what
he/she/it will do in new or difficult situations.
-Capt. Spith
----
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 04:21:17 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "JD" == John Desmarais <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> writes:
>
> JD> Oh, be nice, I've known many apparently intelligent people who simply
> JD> could not do basic arithmetic in their heads.
>
> Calculus is a killer. Once one has managed to wrap one's mind around
> calculus, basic arithmetic becomes impossible without a calculator.
I actually didn't HAVE a calculator when I took calculus, so kept up
fluent basic math throughout through necessity. On the other hand, on
of my players from years ago was a Physics geek (not meant in a bad way)
who would tak a minute and a half to count up BODY and STUN on 6D6....
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
From: ErolB1@aol.com
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:36:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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In a message dated 97-10-07 13:14:11 EDT, ludator writes:
> >To go back to your lava attack example: if the attack is built as a simple
> >RKA vs. Energy Defense, it will not affect a desolified character. But
if
> >it is a continuous AoE RKA and has a linked NND "Life Support: Extreme
> >Heat", the RKA will not affect him but the NND will if he does not have
the
> >appropriate Life Support.
>
> Straw man. In the first place, the attack shouldn't be built as a linked
> NND. The "heat" element is already represented -- that's why it's an
energy
> attack in the first place. If you want to represent a "lava blast" that
> damages by both heat and impact, you'd link a energy RKA (or EB, if you're
> nice) to a physical EB.
The molten lava itself wouldn't include a linked NND, but a "molten lava"
*enviroment* would include not only the molten lava but also the superheated
air above it - and this, IMO, *should* be built as an NND (with LS: Heat or
not breathing as a defense).
[...]
>And finally, Desolid explicitly makes you immune from NND attacks anyways,
>unless it's part of your "reasonably common group of attacks". If my SFX
>for turning desolid is 'physical transference to the astral plane' -- guess
>what? Your intense heat isn't part of that group of attacks. (For that
>matter, neither is the poison cloud).
The Desolid description is screwy. It says that it blocks NND attacks, but
then says that a Desolid character still has to breathe. I'd say that this
makes the statement about blocking NND's overbroad: NND's that work by
getting breathed in should affect breathing Desolid characters just like they
affect normal breathing characters. But other NND's (depending on special
effect) will mostly not affect Desolid characters.
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 06:14:56 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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At 11:43 PM 10/7/97 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>SFX Weaknesses
>'Astral Form' Magical attacks
>Dimensional Rotation Gravitic, 'Dimensional' or Teleportation-based
attacks(*)
>Smoke Form Wind/Pressure/Forced Air attacks (including many
explosive
> effects, like concussion grenades).
>Water Form Heat-based and Dehydration Attacks
>Electrical Form Conductive substance attacks (grounding out),
Electrical
> and Magnetic attacks
>Light Form Light-based attacks (IMHO more appropriate than
Darkness
> based attacks)
>Psionic Sheath/ Mental Energy (like psionic telekinesis or EBs, not
just
> Spirit Form "normal' mental attacks)
>Vibrational Sonic, Vibrational attacks
> Attunement
>Super-Dodge(**) Area Effect or Explosive attacks
>Sonic Form Sonics, Vacuum-based attacks
>Fire Form Water/Cold-Based Attacks,
>Molecular Dispersion Force-Field effects (no spaces to slip through/by)
>Composite Swarm(***) Area Effect or Explosive attacks
>Non-Existance(****) Magical, Cosmic and Dimensional attacks
>
>(*)Note that if I allowed this particular SFX in the campaign, these attacks
>_would_ become 'reasonably common' :-)
>(**)Let's not argue this one _again_, okay?
>(***) AKA 'turning into a bunch of small bugs'
>(****)i.e. becoming a living 'hole in reality' or 'living dimensional
gateway'
This table is good enough to archive. In fact, I think I will! :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 06:28:55 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Judge, Jury and Executioner
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At 08:58 PM 10/7/97 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>Oh well...
>
>I talked to the two people who first told me about this trio and neither
>of them can remember a*anything* useful about the characters (other than
>the fact that Jury could duplicate into 12 people). I suppose that this
>list could brainstorm up an acceptable set of powers for each... well?
>Anyone game?
Well, just for the sake of a little brainstorming, I suppose Judge could
be a mentalist with Telepathy and Retrocognition, and Executioner could be
a black-hooded fellow with a big broadaxe.
That, just to start.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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From: Dazzle489@aol.com
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:42:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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<< hello;
I've been wondering how many people use Heromaker.
I'm putting together a website (albeit very slowly) and noticed on
Bob Greewade's site he lists his house rules as a series of files to
modify heromaker with.
I myself use the program heavily, and I was wondering how many of
us out there us it, and how many use other items.
Is it widespread? Do people like it? Etc...?
I'm thinking of following Bob's format of putting up my mods
to Heromaker.
>>
I am a newcomer to Champions and use heromaker heavily to help me understand
the rules. I have created a whole scenario using this to generate my
characters. I don't know about youz guyz but I think it has helped me
understand the rules.
BTW...what modifications....tell me more...????
Cya Daz
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:38:59 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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>>>Another could be a
>>>spaceship, containing the last 800 members of a good and decent race,
>>>who must land on Earth immediately or die. However, when they land, a
>>>plague will be released, killing at least 1,000,000 humans. Choose:
>>>Genocide or mass murder?
>>
>>Certainly a moral quandry, but not as emotionally loaded as you make it out
>>to be. The term 'genocide' (as coined by Dr. Raphael Lemkin, in 1944) is
>>described as "extermination of a national or racial group as a planned
>>move." The PCs (probably) didn't set in motion the circumstances of the
>>alien's (upcoming) deaths, so it by strict definition isn't genocide.
><snip>
>
>The aliens will land and survive unless the players take action that
>causes them to die. Deliberately knowingly taking an action that will
>result in the extermination of a sentient species matches that
>definition.
No, it doesn't - the PC's aren't out to _kill_ the aliens, they're trying to
_save_ a million humans from an alien-carried disease.
>You pointed out that the PCs aren't responsible for the plague. True.
>However, I am not responsible for the human need to breathe.
An unfair comparison. The PCs are not responsible for the alien's dire
straights at the moment (whatever's killing them). If the PCs cannot save
them using reasonable means (and allowing them to land and thus kill a
million humans is not 'reasonable'), they are not at fault.
>I didn't
>say the aliens needed to land because of a plague, or that the aliens
>even know about the plague, merely that their landing will release a
>plague.
If the PCs don't know about the plague, then the entire situation is
irrelevant (i.e. no moral quandry here, just a tradjedy waiting to happen).
Ditto if the aliens don't know about the plague. Only if the PCs know about
the plague and the aliens don't is there any sort of quandry, easily solved
by telling the aliens. Tradgedy? Yep. Moral quandry? Nope.
>>Anyway. The PCs didn't (I assume) infect these aliens with whatever's
>>killing them - therefore they can't be blamed if they die.
>
>If I knowingly don't close a valve on a dam, opened by Dr. Destroyer,
>thus allowing the resulting flood to wash away a town, then I am
>responsible for the destruction of the town. If I deliberately prevent
>others from doing so, then I am even more responsible. If they prevent
>the aliens from landing, knowing that they will die if they do not
>land, then the PCs _are_ responsible for their deaths.
Reasonable means, reasonable means. Killing 1000000 humans to save 800
aliens is not a 'reasonable' solution to the problem. This isn't a "close
the valve and everything's okay" situation.
>If they take an action, the result of which is extinction for these
>aliens, then they cannot be held responsible, but if they take no
>action resulting in 1,000,000 deaths, they can be held responsible?
>Sorry, I don't think I can accept an argument that a person is not
>responsible for the results of his own actions, but is responsible for
>the results of inaction. In both cases, he is responsible.
Strictly speaking, yes, but by 'responsibility' I mean 'morally/criminally
liable'. If the alien's don't know that their landing will infect a million
humans, the PCs are morally liable to tell them that and see what the
alien's choice is. Should they decide to land anyways ("they're only
humans"), the situation becomes very simple (in fact, the aliens are now the
ones guilty of considering genocide - depending on where they land, or the
disease they carry, they could wipe out an entire strain of humanity).
>Granted, it could be argued that there are different levels of
>culpability and moral "wrongness" here. You argue that allowing the
>aliens to land causes so many more deaths that it is better to stop
>them. Some people might consider taking action that results in the
>complete extinction of a sentient race to be genocide, and thus
>morally worse than even 1,000,000 deaths.
A common 'human' perspective is that one human life is equal to any other
one (true, this maxim isn't always applied, especailly in special
circumstances).
Simple extension brings us "the life of any one sentient is equal to that of
any other one".
>Suppose the plague was released by Dr. Destroyer? Suppose it was about
>to escape, and could only be stopped by beaming it aboard the alien
>ship? In both cases, extermination is the result of action, mass death
>the result of inaction.
Now _there's_ a moral quandry. In that case, the PCs would be morally
culpable for the deaths of the aliens (they deliberately infected them with
the plague), but only a little - after all, it was Doctor Destroyer that
created and released the plague. And again, simple numbers justify the
choice (800 vs. 1 million sentients).
The fact that a 'species' gets wiped out in the process does not make the
situation a 'worse' one. Species cannot claim 'moral' rights to existance
over and above the 'moral' rights of the individuals that compose the
species. Hitler would have been just as evil and wrong if he had been wiping
out millions of people at random, rather than trying to exterminate the
Jewish people. Genocide is simply a selective process of murder. How much is
a 'culture' worth, really? Is it equal in worth to the life of a single
extra sentient? One hundred? One million?
Now, you want a moral quandry - here's one. By killing _one_ mutant (who
knows about this, but has no intention of dying, thank you very much), you
can develop a _cure_ for, say, several forms of cancer. What do you do?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
X-Sender: nezmaster@mail.ntr.net
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 10:41:45 -0400
From: The Nez Master <nezmaster@ntr.net>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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>Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 08:29:50 -0400
>To: cptspith@teleport.com
>From: The Nez Master <nezmaster@ntr.net>
>Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
>
>>> >A comic book example could be two worlds colliding extradimensionally,
>>> >and only one can survive. They each have populations in the billions.
>>> >Choose: Which world lives and which dies?
>>
>>> Players examine both worlds. Players argue over having the right to
decide,
>>> however it was given to them. Players try to alter things so worlds don't
>>> collide, or battle whoever put them in this position,or whatever.
>>
>> Sure, that's EASY! we'll just reroute the galactic forces of the
>>multiverse to make the worlds miss each other! This scenario MIGHT have
>>a 'win-win' solution IF the PCs were on the level of Demigods or better,
>>but otherwise, it's pretty generous to allow them to even have a chance
>>at saving one.
>
>The players apparently are in the position of choice. This implies they
are getting some power some way of destroying changing or altering things
on an interdimensional/planetary scale or they wouldn't be there.
>
>>
>>> Another could be a
>>> >spaceship, containing the last 800 members of a good and decent race,
>>> >who must land on Earth immediately or die. However, when they land, a
>>> >plague will be released, killing at least 1,000,000 humans. Choose:
>>> >Genocide or mass murder?
>>> >
>>> Or having them land in an airtight quarantied enviroment, repairing
>>> whatever is making htem land, and sending them into space. This one was
easy.
>>
>> IF you can find/create such an environment IN TIME, and make sure the
>>aliens will be completely cooperative in the use of it. Or maybe their
>>technology needs are too advanced for the possibility of repair on
>>Earth...
>
>Agreed, but this is part of the challeng of the scenario isn't it?
>>
>>> The only way there are no win scenarios, is if a bad gm DEMANDS a no win
>>> scenario. Good players can usually write a win if the gm will be tolerant
>>> and accept reasonable answers.
>>
>> That really depends on one's personal definition of a 'reasonable
>>answer'. I would consider some of your suggestions for solutions
>>unreasonable in many possible reality levels that are commonly played.
>>In fact, allow me to present my own 'no-win' scenario from my current
>>game:
>>
>> 'The Aliens' are based on the moon and consider Humans to be too
>>barbaric to be allowed into space. Any spaceship seen leaving Earth
>>will be destroyed be The Aliens, to protect the rest of the Galaxy from
>>them. An attack on 'The Aliens' will bring down a large-scale attack
>>from the homeworld. So humans are stuck on Earth (at least until they
>>can - as a race - become peaceful and non-aggressive). A group of
>>humans did try to negotiate with 'The Aliens', but there would be no
>>compromise.
>> The only solution here is to eventually engage in a war with The
>>Aliens. The decisions to be made is when and how. And I don't think
>>that's a bad thing (game-wise). I would think that most real-life wars
>>come from one side (or more) being in a 'no-win' situation. I don't
>>think there's anything wrong with a GM presenting situations with no
>>happy solutions; it's simply one more aspect of the game genre, which
>>boils down to people (players/characters) trying to make decisions about
>>how to affect and react to their world. NOT ever having 'no-win'
>>scenarios LIMITS the possibilities for roleplaying.
>>
>
>This sounds more like a scenario beginning set up then a scenerio
ending/loss.
>It's possible to make this work out to a decent ending, even after losses
and all. It's possilbe for the players to make a difference.
>And I suppose that's the gist of it. In all the above as they are being
assumed to be, the idea is "here players, awful things happen and there
isn't anything you can do about it. Here let me read you another story. You
can angst about it and feel miserable. Later I might even let your
characters presense matter." To me this is not what role playing is about,
and if hit with this, I'd wonder why the gm just didn't submit a news story
item, and then let us play something else. (note: for things the characters
couldn't do anythign about, i have done this.)
>> A couple of years ago, the Spider-Man titles ran a cross-title epic
>>called Maximum Carnage where (very basically) a super-mass-murder and
>>his team of like-minded killers perpetrated a swath of bloody death
>>through Manhattan. SM ultimately had to ask held from an anti-hero
>>killer to stop them, by promising to let the anti-hero killer go free
>>when they were successful. At the end of it all, Spidey ultimately went
>>back on his word and sent the antiherokiller back to prison. This was,
>>for him, a bad situation all around since the greater good (saving of
>>lives) was at the expense of a lesser evil (going back of his promise,
>>which is really a big deal for Spidey).
>> Moral quandries without easy answers are a part of the Hero genre,
>>and are wonderful opportunities for roleplaying. If a PC can just whip
>>up a dimensional oscillator to prevent the imminent destruction of an
>>alternate dimansional planet, it reduces the impact of potential
>>consequences for a player/character's actions.
>
>Now your above example is an example of loss/lesser loss. The original
ideas were examples of loss/equal loss. The decisions were irrelevant. Lots
of decisions my players make dont end happy go lucky. Lots of times there
are two not wonderful choices. But in the interest of me not fiating, they
can usually make one choice be better than another (as above --- thousands
of lives versus promise breaking. This is not the same as millions of lives
versus millions of lives as many of the above situations were.
>
>
>Players who put a lot of
>>effort into their character creation tend to want to have their
>>characters tested; I've actually learned things about the characters
>>I've created when they were put in situations I hadn't expected. It's
>>like when writers find that their characters start 'writing themselves',
>>a well-conceived character can develop a life of his/her/it's own, and
>>can be a source of great interest to the player to 'find out' what
>>he/she/it will do in new or difficult situations.
>
>i guess it's a life veiowpoint. The players are some of the most powrful
people around, and the idea of gaming is to have your characters affect
your story. So if peopel want a certain result, often they can create that
result. I've seen no win scenarios defied in real life time and time again.
So that is my worldview.
>I would not enjoy living in a different one, nor do I fantasize about it.
So why would i want to play a game in one. Obviously someone out there
does. Have fun, but I don't get it.
>
>
>>
>> -Capt. Spith
>>
>>----
>>Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
>>long
>>And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
>>Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
>>All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
>> -'Wierd Al'
>>
>>
-------------------------Nez Master--------------------
Second founder of the backwards philosophy
http://www.ntr.net/~nezmaster
Nothing is certain
_______________________________________________________
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 08:37:58 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Hero Plus for 4th Ed Champions
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I finally got word from Bruce Harlick on a question I'd once asked Steve
Peterson and not gotten a straight answer (I think SP misunderstood the
question).
The vast majority of superhero manuscripts that Bruce is currently
working with deal with the original Champions Universe, rather then the New
Milennium setting. The lion's share of the latter world will probably sold
only in print.
Hopefully this will give those of us who like the old CU a resumption of
continuing coverage of events in that world. Almost certainly this means
we'll be seeing more of Jaguar, Obsidian, PRIMUS, METE (in the CU as well
as SFU), and CLOWN.
I just thought that at least some folks on the list here would be
interested in knowing this.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca>
From: "Vance Scott" <vances@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:42:23 +0000
Subject: TL| Comic Book Time Lines
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Comic Book Time Lines
Preface
To start things off I decided that I would offer my thoughts on
Comic Book World Time Lines.
What is a Time-Line?
A Time-Line is a chronological ordered history. The purpose of a
Time-Line is to record memorable, and important events for posterity.
Why should I write a Time-Line?
A fictional Time-Line has many roles. Players can be introduced
to your world via the Time-Line. Through the Time-Line the
players will become familiar with the campaign world, and its inhabitants.
Important persons, places, and things should be involved in the
events of your campaign world's history. Your fictional history
allows the players to fit their characters' personal history into the
campaign's history. The players should play a part in your campaign
history. You can use persons, or places detailed in your Time-Line.
Using people, places, or things from your Time-Line will add a sense
of importance, and signifigance to your adventures. It is possible
that you can create a sense of anticipation when the player
characters get the chance to meet their favourite hero, or fight
their favourite villain out of your campaign history.
How do I write a Time-Line?
Take events from fiction, news, and your imagination to
construct your fictional Time-Line. Use your fictional
history to showcase the characters, and institutions of your campaign
world. A Time-Line will allow your players to experience what your
campaign will be like, to get a taste of the campaign before hand.
Your campaign history can be used in stead of the player characters
personal history. The players may not have had the chance to develop
their own grudges, and friends so they can borrow them from the
campaign history. The mood, and outlook of your campaign can be
presented in your fictional history. The campaign's Time-Line is the
story of the world. A pre-made history might even inspire your heroes
when they are creating their characters. Your players' characters may
have played a part in the campaign history, or they might know
someone who did. Where was your character when the Lethal Legion
destroyed the White House, and killed the president? Your fictional
history allows your players to incorporate the campaign history into
the player character history. A World time-line is also a source of
ready made plot threads that can be used in current story lines. You
should brainstorm events that might make up your alternative history.
Come up with as many ideas as you can, and try to apply your reason
to determine which events you should keep.
How do you use my Time-Line?
The GameMaster should continue to add, and change the Time-Line
as the campaign evolves. The GM shouldn't be afraid to make
retroactive changes to his campaign world's history. As you invent new
people, places, and groups you should add them to your Time-Line. The
Time-Line can be used as a record of the campaign's most memoriable
characters, and moments. A Time-Line can be used as the starting
point for future story lines. The time-line can be used to present
your campaign set-up in a story format.
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 10:13:16 -0700
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: No win Scenerios (Was GM Question #1)
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> > I'm reminded of an old Hero module.
> >Wrath of the Seven Horsemen or something like that.
> > It was set up so the PC's would lose the first several
> >fights they got into with the villians, then they would learn to overcome
> >them later.
> >
> > Well, on the issue of players who can't take a no-win scenerio, my
> >players at the time I ran this refused to continue play after losing for
> >the third time. My attempts to explain that it was just setting it up for a finale
> >fell on deaf ears.
>
> as it should. .. the pc's are there to ACT, not read off scripts. ..
> this is why i avoid most modules, they tend to miss the point
> of roleplaying completly. ..
>
Well, that's true. I tend to run improv only these days. That was years ago when I
ran that.The module had some interesting things in it. Things I may use someday, but I
don't feel it was
presented as best as it could have benn.
> > That was some time ago... As I recall, I ran it shortly after it was
> >published.
> > But sometimes you get people who feel wining is the goal over all other
> >aspects of roleplaying.
> > I've had other players who built their characters with the intention
> >of getting into and losing a no win situation. players who wanted the thrill of
> >roleplaying said situation.
> >
> *yawn* you mean they get to write their own dialogue? *l*
> that's something, i suppose. .
My point here is that being the best, the guy who always wins, is not what it's all
about.
At least not for me. I build my character's, PC or NPC, around some theme I wish to
explore
in them. I expect the same of my players when I GM.
A character whose sole function is to be the best in the game, or a player who
choses all their
actions to win, rather than to fit the personality of the PC, turn me off.
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat #gurps and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
Gurps is for discussion of the GURPS RolePlaying Game
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: No win Scenerios (Was GM Question #1)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:16:06 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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I'm reminded of an old Hero module.
Wrath of the Seven Horsemen or something like that.
It was set up so the PC's would lose the first several
fights they got into with the villians, then they would learn to overcome
them later.
Well, on the issue of players who can't take a no-win scenerio, my
players at the time I ran this refused to continue play after losing for
the third time. My attempts to explain that it was just setting it up for a finale
fell on deaf ears.
That was some time ago... As I recall, I ran it shortly after it was
published.
But sometimes you get people who feel wining is the goal over all other
aspects of roleplaying.
I've had other players who built their characters with the intention
of getting into and losing a no win situation. players who wanted the thrill of
roleplaying said situation.
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Super Timelines
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:22:49 -0700 (PDT)
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A couple of us on #herochat have been milling over this one.
What elements are needed in setting up a Super Hero worlds timeline.
Current ideas are to feature the worlds early heroes, some of
the great conflicts of the past. When and where's of significant legal
decisions. Etc...
Perhaps throwing in a few 'odd' details to help show the
flavor the world is shooting for.
I have an inwork timeline on my super hero networld at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/LLNW/Timeline.html
designed to highlight some of these issues...
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Judge, Jury and Executioner
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:33:18 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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> >
> > Well, just for the sake of a little brainstorming, I suppose Judge could
> >be a mentalist with Telepathy and Retrocognition, and Executioner could be
> >a black-hooded fellow with a big broadaxe.
> > That, just to start.
> >
> Personally, I'd like to stay away from the "black-hooded, big axe"
> look for Executioner. Maybe a more modern form of execution? Lethal
> injection, electrocution? Maybe he's a one-man "firing squad."
> Jury's dupes could each have a slightly (or entirely) different
> personality... Maybe Vulnerability to Entangle (is that possible): easily
> sequestered (sp?) : )
Hmmm... :) I like the idea of a skinny white-guy with a big head. Make
him bald, wire rimmed glasses, big ears...
Always wears a white lab coat, surgeons mask and gloves, white pants
and white shoes.
Has a stethoscope on and always carries a hypodermic needle. :)
The Judge wears black robes, is an old man with a deep british accent
and a wig. Has a gavel too.
The Jury is a team of 12 agents of mixed ethnicity and social class.
I think they should either look totally normal, or be 12 floating spectres
that all move in unison.
That still leaves the prosecution, defense, and balif. :)
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 10:41:45 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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At 09:42 AM 10/8/97 -0400, Dazzle489@aol.com wrote:
[starting with someone else's quote]
> I'm putting together a website (albeit very slowly) and noticed on
> Bob Greewade's site he lists his house rules as a series of files to
> modify heromaker with.
[snip]
>BTW...what modifications....tell me more...????
Go to the URL below for Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page, and click on the
blue bar for the "See Also..." section. There you should find a link to my
HeroMaker files, downloadable either individually or ZIPped together.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:50:51 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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>
> >I am a newcomer to Champions and use heromaker heavily to help me understand
> >the rules. I have created a whole scenario using this to generate my
> >characters. I don't know about youz guyz but I think it has helped me
> >understand the rules.
> >
> Several of my own Players have benefitted from HeroMaker. I've
> gotten a phone call from one of them, he was using HM and wanted me to
> explain something about it... It's helped them understand the game and
> character mechanics, and especially how their characters are built.
>
I've been a champions GM since 1985. Yet I still agree here.
Heromaker for me has answered a few of the tough rules calls in character
generation.
Besides, having lost my file of 200+ PC's/NPC's to a monsoon when
I lived in asia; keeping them on computer now is a major bonus.
Not that I've managed to come even close to rebuilding that
collection.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 11:01:02 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Judge, Jury and Executioner
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At 12:03 PM 10/8/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>At 06:28 AM 10/8/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>At 08:58 PM 10/7/97 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>>>I talked to the two people who first told me about this trio and neither
>>>of them can remember a*anything* useful about the characters (other than
>>>the fact that Jury could duplicate into 12 people). I suppose that this
>>>list could brainstorm up an acceptable set of powers for each... well?
>>>Anyone game?
>>
>> Well, just for the sake of a little brainstorming, I suppose Judge could
>>be a mentalist with Telepathy and Retrocognition, and Executioner could be
>>a black-hooded fellow with a big broadaxe.
>>
> Personally, I'd like to stay away from the "black-hooded, big axe"
>look for Executioner. Maybe a more modern form of execution? Lethal
>injection, electrocution? Maybe he's a one-man "firing squad."
Or maybe Executioner could have a variety of weapons that duplicate
forms of execution throughout the ages: broadaxe, noose, syringe, rifle
(shooting multiple bullets at the same time, represented as an
all-or-nothing Autofire), poison gas, that sort of thing. One could even
try to figure out how to include burning at the stake and crucifixion. For
that matter, some of the simpler forms of execution are only a stone's
throw away.... (get it?)
But keep the black hood; even contemporary executioners in our own
society still wear them (or so I've come to understand).
> Jury's dupes could each have a slightly (or entirely) different
>personality... Maybe Vulnerability to Entangle (is that possible): easily
>sequestered (sp?) : )
I think I'd make that a Vulnerability to being Flashed, at least to the
extent that when one is Flashed (or more than one, if it's Area Effect)
they all feel the effects.
For Jury's offense, just as an off-the-cuff idea, I think I'd suggest
giving him Martial Arts with extra damage that only works when two or more
of his dupes coordinate. 6d6 when one attacks, 8d6 for two, 10d6 for
three, all the way up to 26d6 (!!!) when all twelve work together (provided
they can find the space to all get within range of the same target).
Are we having fun yet?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Judge, Jury and Executioner
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:22:35 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: VTSFFC
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> Hmmm... :) I like the idea of a skinny white-guy with a big head. Make
> him bald, wire rimmed glasses, big ears...
Cute. While I did once play a character named "Executioner", he was
a Dark-Champs punisher-clone with an axe for a trademark. Used to
own a gun shop in Los Angeles, walked away during the riots with most of
the inventory on his back. :-)
>
> That still leaves the prosecution, defense, and balif. :)
"So, Judge, what do you call your team?"
"LEGAL ACTION!!!"
Daniel Pawtowski
X-Sender: nezmaster@mail.ntr.net
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 14:44:50 -0400
From: The Nez Master <nezmaster@ntr.net>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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>>
> Well, I of course thought of Crisis (DC) when presented with this.
>The players *were* allowed to do something, and they saved *parts* of *some*
>of the worlds, but their were serious repurcussions afterwards...
>
> I think that "no-win" situations do have their place. Obviously,
>some on the list (and I assume elsewhere) don't feel the same. So, if there
>is a Player in your game who dislikes these situations, either don't throw
>them in, or do it sparingly. I'd treat it just like any other subject that
>my Players may want to avoid. (As an example of that type of subject, I
>often find it uncomfortable to roleplay Romance, so there is very little
>"on-screen" in my games.)
>
>- Jerry
>
>
We are ill defining "no win". Winning means 'making enough of a differene
that it would have been worse without you there. None of hte original
hypothesis fit that criterea. If you like I could go back and try to find
outcomes that would be greyer, but that would mean (hey i did something.) I
Really hate it when the gm reads me a story and I could have stayed at
home, and mailed in my character input.
-------------------------Nez Master--------------------
Second founder of the backwards philosophy
http://www.ntr.net/~nezmaster
Nothing is certain
_______________________________________________________
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: Reduced END Question
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:04:22 -0500
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >>>>> "BW" == Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com> writes:
>
> BW> Too obscure for me to have ever seen. Can you give us a page
> BW> number reference?
>
> Champions Deluxe, page 168, "Endurance"
>
> Some actions don't have a Strength listed; in such cases, a
> character will spend 1 END. This includes such maneuvers as
> Block,
> Dodge, or firing a weapon.
>
This refers to performing an action, i.e., doing something.
Doing nothing (including holding your action) is NOT an action and does
not cost endurance.
As a matter of fact, just standing or sitting there and resting is call
taking a recovery;
this also doesn't cost any endurance. (It allows a character to recover
END).
-RICK
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: I'm baaack!
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:13:52 -0500
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Greetings.
I've been away from the Champions scene for awhile.
That is, I haven't actively played since before I went to Tokyo in '87.
Therefore, my point of view might suffer a little since I can only
relate
to the way the rules were interpreted during the early days of
Champions.
On the other hand, this also enables me to clearly see where some of
today's rules lawyers have been getting out of hand with their
re-interpretations
of the way some of the powers interact.
In the next few weeks, as I get into the flow of the discussions,
I may irritate a few of these rules lawyers.
Heck, I'm a rules lawyer myself -- of the worst kind. The world needs
us.
I can only ask that those who read my ramblings take this into
consideration
before flaming me too badly.
-RICK
Richard Thomas Ryker
Programmer Analyst
ComputerLand Technology Group, Inc.
Richard Thomas Ryker
Programmer Analyst
ComputerLand Technology Group, Inc.
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: GMing Question #1
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:40:40 -0500
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J Prins wrote:
> Nobody could 'accuse' the PCs of committing 'genocide' by not allowing
> a
> spaceship full of plague-bearing aliens to come to Earth. In fact, the
> guilty party here is the aliens, who are willing to sacrifice 1
> million
> sentients to preserve their own existance. That's 1250 deaths for
> every
> alien 'saved'. Anybody willing to exterminate 1250 innocent people
> just to
> save his own life falls entirely within _my_ definition of 'evil'.
>
> Anyway. The PCs didn't (I assume) infect these aliens with whatever's
> killing them - therefore they can't be blamed if they die. OTOH, they
> _can_
> be blamed for the deaths of 1,000,000 people if they knowingly allow
> the
> aliens to land bearing this disease.
>
Good points. This is pretty much a no brainer.
To illustrate, allow me to translate this situation
into something a little closer to home for most of us.
(Since very few of us will ever have to make this type of decision).
The aliens are -- oh, say -- a few illegal aliens.
You've met them. Good people. Definitely worth saving.
But, they have a deadly cummunicable disease that will kill them for
sure
if they don't get some decent shelter soon,
and at least half of anyone infected while trying to help them.
You and your family live in the only decent shelter for hundreds of
miles around.
In order to save these other people,
you would have to expose your family to this disease
that will mean certain death for at least half of them.
The choice here is between someone else and your own.
Most of us would unhesitatingly choose to save our own first.
Anyone out there who has kids willing to expose them to a deadly disease
on purpose?
-Rick
> Richard Thomas Ryker
> Programmer Analyst
> ComputerLand Technology Group, Inc.
>
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: GMing Question #1
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:58:57 -0500
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J Prins wrote:
> Now, you want a moral quandry - here's one. By killing _one_ mutant
> (who
> knows about this, but has no intention of dying, thank you very much),
> you
> can develop a _cure_ for, say, several forms of cancer. What do you
> do?
>
This is a good one. Just about everybody would start out by trying to
convince
the mutant in question to allow himself to be studied for the greater
good.
A few would go further and demand that, for the greater good, his right
to
self preservation be set aside -- that the need of the many outweighed
the
need of the few, or the one.
But we Americans believe that this right to life and liberty is
inalienable;
it can't be taken away without doing a lot of damage to our own
morality.
Richard Thomas Ryker
Programmer Analyst
ComputerLand Technology Group, Inc.
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: Judge, Jury and Executioner
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 18:21:32 -0500
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> >>I talked to the two people who first told me about this trio and
> neither
> >>of them can remember a*anything* useful about the characters (other
> than
> >>the fact that Jury could duplicate into 12 people). I suppose that
> this
> >>list could brainstorm up an acceptable set of powers for each...
> well?
> >>Anyone game?
>
> Jury's dupes could each have a slightly (or entirely)
> different
> personality...
>
Back in the mid eighty's, I created a character named Octagon.
And, his dupes did have completely distinct personalities.
One of his psyches was that he didn't like to recombine.
I don't know -- maybe once he got used to being eight different people
he didn't want to go back to being just one person again.
Anyway, I see if I can dig it up again. I still have all of my old
characters.
-Rick
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From: "Jeff Tolle" <Trigon@classic.msn.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 97 23:40:01 UT
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Subject: RE: GM question #1
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Has anyone ever seen the movie "Last Supper" - Check it out if you want to
see an example of the moral consequences of killing Hitler (or similar
demagogues) and besides that, its downright funny
Trigon
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-champ-l@omg.org On Behalf Of jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 1997 1:55 AM
To: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: GM question #1
At 05:02 AM 10/6/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Why not go back in history and try to "cure" the bad guy, instead of doing
the
>same thing as him/her/it?
>
because some other sick guy would take his place?
>Like in Hitlers case, move him to someplacw where his paintings could be
sold.
>After all, down deep Hitler was a painter, who cold not sell his okay
paintings
>cause in Vienna c.1930 there was thousands of starving artists just as good
as
>he. Or maybe even earlier.
>
i've heard berthold(sp) brect rejected hitlers art- maybe we should go back
and kill him instead? *eg*
>
>
>
Reply-To: "Debbie & Yancy" <yevans@pty.com>
From: "Debbie & Yancy" <yevans@pty.com>
Subject: unsubscribe
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 18:50:52 -0500
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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 12:52:24 +1000
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At 03:18 PM 10/7/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Which sometimes is exactly the type of game I want to play in. So long
>as it goes both ways, a GM who limits things to the "real world" is
>not a problem for me, if that was the sort of game I signed on for.
>
>Filksinger
>
>
but it *isn't* the real world- just the gm's opinion, which is often quite silly. . .
i.e. 'super martial arts are real, but backpack nukes aren't'
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 12:54:28 +1000
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At 03:28 PM 10/7/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>On Monday, October 06, 1997 11:32 PM, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au said:
>
>>
>>erally? then what's the original point(rhetorical)? i have that all
>the time in my games-what i don't have is i situation in which there
>is only ONE right way, moral or srtategic...
>
>Then I misunderstood you. I was never talking about "one way only"
>scenarios, though they could have their place. I was talking about two
>way scenarios, no way out, and both ways are bad.
>
>Filksinger
>
>
there's the problem again- two ways? it's still a 'limited option'
deal, and if the pc's have thought up a happy and easy third option?
many gm's will resent their inititive. . . it's still one-way, or
just as bad. .
From: PopTholian@aol.com
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:56:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Re: Best Source for Mucho Vehicles?
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Viper, Eye, Golden Age.
Thank You All.
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 12:57:00 +1000
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At 03:03 PM 10/7/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Certainly. It is the most tragic of all scenarios, or can be, because
>no matter what, it always goes wrong. Consider Siamese twins
>possessing only one set of certain absolutely necessary organs,
>certain to die unless separated. When the separation is performed, one
>of them _will_ die, and you have to choose who it will be.
>
>A comic book example could be two worlds colliding extradimensionally,
>and only one can survive. They each have populations in the billions.
>Choose: Which world lives and which dies? Another could be a
>spaceship, containing the last 800 members of a good and decent race,
>who must land on Earth immediately or die. However, when they land, a
>plague will be released, killing at least 1,000,000 humans. Choose:
>Genocide or mass murder?
>
>Filksinger
>
>
why not give the pc's a crack at evacuating one of the worlds?
or how about freezing the aliens in time? i'd say a good gm has
a responsibility to allow these options. . otherwise, what are
the pc's there for? to feel bad? woo-hooo...
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 13:03:27 +1000
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At 03:46 PM 10/7/97 -0700, you wrote:
>On Tuesday, October 07, 1997 12:12 AM, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au said:
>
>
>>And i Still don't see why i don't have this in my campaign! *lol*
>
>
>Apparently, you do. I was talking about situations where there were
>two (or more) outcomes, all bad, and that was all I noticed anyone
>else talking about. When you came forward to the attack, I assumed you
>were talking about the same thing. My apologies for not reading more
>clearly.
>
><snip>
>>I suppose the original poster thought that when i said all the stuff
>i did, it precluded tense stand-off's and difficult choics.
>
>Since you were attacking my position, and that's what I was talking
>about, yes, I'm sorry, I did think that.
>
i wasn't attacking jack. . . you haven't got the gist- i allow *unlimited pc possibilities* that is if the pc's think up a plausable option, they can try it-
you just give them the old 'either/or' option, both options planned by you. .
>>What i meant (and i think i was pretty sure i was clear on) is that
>when these things occur, there is more than one way out of them- an
>infinite number of ways, based on how the pc's react.
>
>Not neccessarilly. An example is babies that are Siamese twins with
>only one set of necessary organs. They will die if they are not
>separated, and only one gets enough organs to live.
>
>You can argue that there are three outcomes (the doctors could do
>nothing, and let them both die), but there are still only three: they
>both die, one dies, the other dies.
>
in a rpg? why not clone tissue? this isn't real life, it's an rpg:
endless possiblities are the appeal of the system. . .
>>many people put up moral quandries like puzzles- i.e. here's the
>problem, here's the solution. Personaly i >don't do that for puzzles
>EITHER, but in any even a morality situation is NEVER that simple.
>
>True. That, in fact, is the tragedy of antinomy- there _is no_
>solution.
>
exactly. . booooring! and the tregedy of the dictionary deffinition is that
there are *multiple* solution, but they cost. .
>When I create such a scenario, the players may do whatever they wish,
>depending upon their morals and ethics. However, sometimes (rarely),
>the solutions are severely limited- there is no way out. This isn't
>bad GMing, if done rarely, in a campaign where this level of emotional
>impact and moral conflict is appropriate.
>
so the gm just decided when this occurs? what if in that circumstance the
pc's come up with a solution? does the gm just say 'sorry, this isn't a 'fix-it'
scenario'?
>I think we agree that this all started as a misunderstanding.
>
once again, it's not a misunderstanding. . . in future, please just
assume i'm out to get you, ok? *j/k*
>Filksinger
>
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 13:08:45 +1000
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At 03:15 PM 10/7/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>limiting? wait, they give the pc's a choice in matters, so they
>limit? nno-ot!
>
>
>No, limited in that certain types of scenarios are forbidden.
>Personally, as a player, I would prefer to be able to, at least once,
>play a "no-win" scenario. You, however, have decided that they are
>unfair and should be forbidden. Your choice, but with a good GM I
>_want_ to sometimes have my choices limited.
>
i play no win situations. . . all the time! and my glorious pc's
often win anyway- can everyone say 'superhero'? the difference is
my original intent, and that is to let the pc's contribute, instead
of just standing around. .. . i write 'pc's might come up with
a solution' where you write 'pcs ball their eyes out and shake
fists at heaven'
>>Heros are people who change things DESPITE it being 'impossible' to
>do so. .
>
>I get to play _that_ all the time. That is one of the most common
>major theme in comics- winning against impossible odds. I want
>something different, including, upon occasion, truly limited
>scenarios. Detective stories where you really do have only one chance
>to catch the villain. A tragic conflict between two equally right
>propositions where one or the other _must_ lose.
>
the difference is you seem to set it out... the gm determines in
advance wether there is a solution or not, irrespective of the
pc's actions. .. .i've had pc's fail miserably in the most
simple of scenarios because they couldn't *quite* come up with
an option. . .
>So long as these are well made and only occasional, I _want_ limits,
>even severe ones.
>
limited by scenario or circumstance?
>Filksinger
>
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 13:21:07 +1000
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At 01:02 AM 10/8/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>>players to find a way out of it.
>>Even if everything I thought of was accounted for.
>
> It doesn't take a bad GM to create a 'no win' scenario. If I want to
>play a very broad set of experiences in my games, I _need_ the GM to
>occassionally force things. No win scenarios. Puzzles with only one
>answer. Mysteries where if I miss the clues, the villain escapes. This
>is not necessarily a bad GM forcing things on his players, sometimes
>this is what I _want_ to play as a character, and sometimes this is
>realistic. In the case of the Siamese twins, this occured only a few
>months ago. The doctors didn't fail to save both because they were
>incompetent, but because sometimes that's just the way it is.
>
yes- but not becuase 'god' says so. and your 'i want to play it,
so others must as well' is not an acceptable option when making
stories. A situation should be 'no-win' becuase that the way
it turns out, not becase that's the way the gm planns it. .
>>So if i provide my players with a no win situation, usually they will
>win
>>anyway, just to spite me...:)
>
>One of my favorite Paranoia games had exactly that happen to me. The
>one I mentioned about a week ago. It is fun when that happens, but
>sometimes I, as a player, want a one answer or even no answer
>scenario.
>
or is that you, the gm? a player can make these suggestions, but it
is unfair for a gm to do so. ..
btw, most players won't care if the gm forces them into a tough choice-
like all railroading, it's not very entertaining, and players resent it
. . . . . so your not going to get tragedy on any real level, just
cardboard melodrama. . . .
to get TRAGEDY, you establish a trend where the players know the will
suceed if they're smart enough. ... and when they fail. . . it's their
own fault. . . ....
>Filksinger
>
>
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 13:24:10 +1000
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At 04:14 AM 10/8/97 -0700, you wrote:
>> Players examine both worlds. Players argue over having the right to decide,
>> however it was given to them. Players try to alter things so worlds don't
>> collide, or battle whoever put them in this position,or whatever.
>
> Sure, that's EASY! we'll just reroute the galactic forces of the
>multiverse to make the worlds miss each other! This scenario MIGHT have
>a 'win-win' solution IF the PCs were on the level of Demigods or better,
>but otherwise, it's pretty generous to allow them to even have a chance
>at saving one.
>
demigods? how are they expecting to DESTROY A PLANET in the first
place? and it isn't generous- it's just the gm supplying the
props for the play they have written- and good gm would allow
the pc's to try and covert the 'singularity bomb' into a wormhole or
something. . .
>> Another could be a
>> >spaceship, containing the last 800 members of a good and decent race,
>> >who must land on Earth immediately or die. However, when they land, a
>> >plague will be released, killing at least 1,000,000 humans. Choose:
>> >Genocide or mass murder?
>> >
>> Or having them land in an airtight quarantied enviroment, repairing
>> whatever is making htem land, and sending them into space. This one was easy.
>
> IF you can find/create such an environment IN TIME, and make sure the
>aliens will be completely cooperative in the use of it. Or maybe their
>technology needs are too advanced for the possibility of repair on
>Earth...
>
>> The only way there are no win scenarios, is if a bad gm DEMANDS a no win
>> scenario. Good players can usually write a win if the gm will be tolerant
>> and accept reasonable answers.
>
> That really depends on one's personal definition of a 'reasonable
>answer'. I would consider some of your suggestions for solutions
>unreasonable in many possible reality levels that are commonly played.
>In fact, allow me to present my own 'no-win' scenario from my current
>game:
>
> 'The Aliens' are based on the moon and consider Humans to be too
>barbaric to be allowed into space. Any spaceship seen leaving Earth
>will be destroyed be The Aliens, to protect the rest of the Galaxy from
>them. An attack on 'The Aliens' will bring down a large-scale attack
>from the homeworld. So humans are stuck on Earth (at least until they
>can - as a race - become peaceful and non-aggressive). A group of
>humans did try to negotiate with 'The Aliens', but there would be no
>compromise.
> The only solution here is to eventually engage in a war with The
>Aliens. The decisions to be made is when and how. And I don't think
>that's a bad thing (game-wise). I would think that most real-life wars
>come from one side (or more) being in a 'no-win' situation. I don't
>think there's anything wrong with a GM presenting situations with no
>happy solutions; it's simply one more aspect of the game genre, which
>boils down to people (players/characters) trying to make decisions about
>how to affect and react to their world. NOT ever having 'no-win'
>scenarios LIMITS the possibilities for roleplaying.
>
> A couple of years ago, the Spider-Man titles ran a cross-title epic
>called Maximum Carnage where (very basically) a super-mass-murder and
>his team of like-minded killers perpetrated a swath of bloody death
>through Manhattan. SM ultimately had to ask held from an anti-hero
>killer to stop them, by promising to let the anti-hero killer go free
>when they were successful. At the end of it all, Spidey ultimately went
>back on his word and sent the antiherokiller back to prison. This was,
>for him, a bad situation all around since the greater good (saving of
>lives) was at the expense of a lesser evil (going back of his promise,
>which is really a big deal for Spidey).
> Moral quandries without easy answers are a part of the Hero genre,
>and are wonderful opportunities for roleplaying. If a PC can just whip
>up a dimensional oscillator to prevent the imminent destruction of an
>alternate dimansional planet, it reduces the impact of potential
>consequences for a player/character's actions. Players who put a lot of
>effort into their character creation tend to want to have their
>characters tested; I've actually learned things about the characters
>I've created when they were put in situations I hadn't expected. It's
>like when writers find that their characters start 'writing themselves',
>a well-conceived character can develop a life of his/her/it's own, and
>can be a source of great interest to the player to 'find out' what
>he/she/it will do in new or difficult situations.
>
> -Capt. Spith
>
>----
>Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
>long
>And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
>Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
>All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
> -'Wierd Al'
>
>
From: "David Nasset, Sr." <dnasset@gr.cc.wa.us>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:25:34 -0700
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On Wednesday, October 08, 1997 4:05 PM, Rick Ryker said:
>
>Good points. This is pretty much a no brainer.
>To illustrate, allow me to translate this situation
>into something a little closer to home for most of us.
>(Since very few of us will ever have to make this type of decision).
I have said before that I agree with the position you are defending.
However, I find your claim of moral superiority so great it is a "no
brainer" somewhat offensive. Particularly when you decide to
illustrate by deliberately throwing out most of the arguments against
your position, while enhancing the arguments in favor of your
position.
<snip >
>The choice here is between someone else and your own.
>Most of us would unhesitatingly choose to save our own first.
Perhaps. If it is a choice between two Earths, I assume that you would
automatically choose yours, as a "no brainer". While I would probably
do the same, I wouldn't claim moral superiority while doing it.
Lets try an example "closer to home", that doesn't distort the
situation nearly as much.
You have discovered that there are 20 remaining passenger pigeons.
They are dying fast, but you can save them. To do so, however, will
expose dogs around the world to a disease that is sometimes deadly,
often enough to kill thousands of dogs over the next ten years.
I take it that because dogs are our pets, we should choose in favor of
saving them over the passenger pigeon.
I have noticed an assumption in most of these posts, which I did not
make in my original suggestion, IIRC. Lets challenge that assumption.
The entire human race, save for 800 members (including your family and
friends) is wiped out. Your ship is falling apart, and you will all be
dead within days.
You come across a planet that has a breathable atmosphere. The natives
are too primitive to help you in any way, and, if you land, one member
of their species out of every 5,000 will die. You and you alone have
the power to get your ship to the planet in time.
Do you save the human race?
Filksinger
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 13:28:18 +1000
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At 10:38 AM 10/8/97 -0400, you wrote:
<massive philistine snip-job>
>The fact that a 'species' gets wiped out in the process does not make the
>situation a 'worse' one. Species cannot claim 'moral' rights to existance
>over and above the 'moral' rights of the individuals that compose the
>species. Hitler would have been just as evil and wrong if he had been wiping
>out millions of people at random, rather than trying to exterminate the
>Jewish people. Genocide is simply a selective process of murder. How much is
>a 'culture' worth, really? Is it equal in worth to the life of a single
>extra sentient? One hundred? One million?
>
>Now, you want a moral quandry - here's one. By killing _one_ mutant (who
>knows about this, but has no intention of dying, thank you very much), you
>can develop a _cure_ for, say, several forms of cancer. What do you do?
>
>
>
the point is moot- because no matter what the pc's are forced to
do the players are not going to feel bad about a situation they
have no real choice about. .railroading does not lead to good
role-playing. . . these actions are only going to have weight
if the players make their own decision. . .
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
>-John comments on Feng Shui
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>John D. Prins
>jprins@interhop.net
>
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 13:34:35 +1000
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Subject: Re: No win Scenerios (Was GM Question #1)
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At 10:16 AM 10/8/97 -0700, you wrote:
> I'm reminded of an old Hero module.
>Wrath of the Seven Horsemen or something like that.
>
> It was set up so the PC's would lose the first several
>fights they got into with the villians, then they would learn to overcome
>them later.
>
> Well, on the issue of players who can't take a no-win scenerio, my
>players at the time I ran this refused to continue play after losing for
>the third time. My attempts to explain that it was just setting it up for a finale
>fell on deaf ears.
as it should. .. the pc's are there to ACT, not read off scripts. ..
this is why i avoid most modules, they tend to miss the point
of roleplaying completly. ..
> That was some time ago... As I recall, I ran it shortly after it was
>published.
> But sometimes you get people who feel wining is the goal over all other
>aspects of roleplaying.
> I've had other players who built their characters with the intention
>of getting into and losing a no win situation. players who wanted the thrill of
>roleplaying said situation.
>
*yawn* you mean they get to write their own dialogue? *l*
that's something, i suppose. .
>
>Rook
>Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
>herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
>Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
>
>Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
>http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
>
>Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
>http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
>
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 13:38:22 +1000
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Subject: Re: Judge, Jury and Executioner
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At 10:33 AM 10/8/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
> Hmmm... :) I like the idea of a skinny white-guy with a big head. Make
>him bald, wire rimmed glasses, big ears...
> Always wears a white lab coat, surgeons mask and gloves, white pants
>and white shoes.
> Has a stethoscope on and always carries a hypodermic needle. :)
>
how about prehensile tubes with needles at the end?
> The Judge wears black robes, is an old man with a deep british accent
>and a wig. Has a gavel too.
>
> The Jury is a team of 12 agents of mixed ethnicity and social class.
>I think they should either look totally normal, or be 12 floating spectres
>that all move in unison.
>
how about "whatevver ethnic group the pc doesn't gt along with'?
> That still leaves the prosecution, defense, and balif. :)
>
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 13:40:48 +1000
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Subject: RE: GMing Question #1
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At 05:58 PM 10/8/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>J Prins wrote:
>
>> Now, you want a moral quandry - here's one. By killing _one_ mutant
>> (who
>> knows about this, but has no intention of dying, thank you very much),
>> you
>> can develop a _cure_ for, say, several forms of cancer. What do you
>> do?
>>
>This is a good one. Just about everybody would start out by trying to
>convince
>the mutant in question to allow himself to be studied for the greater
>good.
>
>A few would go further and demand that, for the greater good, his right
>to
>self preservation be set aside -- that the need of the many outweighed
>the
>need of the few, or the one.
>
including the juge, jury and executioner? *eg*
From: "David Nasset, Sr." <dnasset@gr.cc.wa.us>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:43:34 -0700
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On Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:09:00 -0700 (PDT), Brian Wong wrote:
>hello;
>
> I've been wondering how many people use Heromaker.
I only got this computer about a year ago, and never had the chance to
pick it up. I would have gotten it a few months back, but just before
I did, they announced the Creation Workshop. So I'm waiting, Hero
Games:)
Filksinger
From: "David Nasset, Sr." <dnasset@gr.cc.wa.us>
Subject: Re: question #1. ..
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:25:11 -0700
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On Wednesday, October 08, 1997 8:13 PM, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au said:
>At 03:18 PM 10/7/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>>Which sometimes is exactly the type of game I want to play in. So
long
>>as it goes both ways, a GM who limits things to the "real world" is
>>not a problem for me, if that was the sort of game I signed on for.
>>
>>Filksinger
>>
>>
>
>but it *isn't* the real world- just the gm's opinion, which is often
quite silly. . .
>i.e. 'super martial arts are real, but backpack nukes aren't'
>
Of course it isn't the real world- it's a game. However, I fail to see
why an attempt at creating a "real world"-imitating, high realism
game, should be criticized in this manner.
Filksinger
From: "David Nasset, Sr." <dnasset@gr.cc.wa.us>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:29:59 -0700
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On Wednesday, October 08, 1997 8:14 PM, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au said:
>At 03:28 PM 10/7/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>>On Monday, October 06, 1997 11:32 PM, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au said:
>>
>>>
>>>erally? then what's the original point(rhetorical)? i have that all
>>the time in my games-what i don't have is i situation in which there
>>is only ONE right way, moral or srtategic...
>>
>>Then I misunderstood you. I was never talking about "one way only"
>>scenarios, though they could have their place. I was talking about
two
>>way scenarios, no way out, and both ways are bad.
>>
>>Filksinger
>>
>>
>
>
>there's the problem again- two ways? it's still a 'limited option'
>deal, and if the pc's have thought up a happy and easy third option?
If the players want to play a true "limited option" game, then it is
the role of the GM to give them what they want. If they break the
scenario, then its his fault.
>many gm's will resent their inititive. . . it's still one-way, or
>just as bad. .
Many GM's will X is not a good argument against doing something. I
could argue against letting the players have free will, and justify it
with "Many players will X", but that doesn't make it right. Just
because some GMs are bad is not a reason to throw out scenarios,
regardless of what the players want, that can be ruined by bad GMing.
Are you accusing me of being such a GM? That's a different matter, and
personal.
Filksinger
From: "David Nasset, Sr." <dnasset@gr.cc.wa.us>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:32:37 -0700
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On Wednesday, October 08, 1997 8:15 PM jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au said:
>At 03:03 PM 10/7/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>>Certainly. It is the most tragic of all scenarios, or can be,
because
>>no matter what, it always goes wrong. Consider Siamese twins
>>possessing only one set of certain absolutely necessary organs,
>>certain to die unless separated. When the separation is performed,
one
>>of them _will_ die, and you have to choose who it will be.
>>
>>A comic book example could be two worlds colliding
extradimensionally,
>>and only one can survive. They each have populations in the
billions.
>>Choose: Which world lives and which dies? Another could be a
>>spaceship, containing the last 800 members of a good and decent
race,
>>who must land on Earth immediately or die. However, when they land,
a
>>plague will be released, killing at least 1,000,000 humans. Choose:
>>Genocide or mass murder?
>>
>>Filksinger
>>
>>
>
>why not give the pc's a crack at evacuating one of the worlds?
>or how about freezing the aliens in time? i'd say a good gm has
>a responsibility to allow these options. . otherwise, what are
>the pc's there for? to feel bad? woo-hooo...
Why not give the PCs a crack at saving them? Because, if the players
want to try to role play no win scenarios, then allowing them to win
ruins it.
Of course, you shouldn't force them to lose. If they clearly have
discovered a way of saving them, then they will just have to wait for
the scenario they wanted.
Filksinger
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 17:13:59 +1000
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At 10:13 AM 10/8/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
> Well, that's true. I tend to run improv only these days. That was years ago when I
>ran that.The module had some interesting things in it. Things I may use someday, but I
>don't feel it was
>presented as best as it could have benn.
>
>
i think modules are best served if they introduce charaters and plots-
which are open-ended. A far better resource is one which inspires the
gm, even if in terms of a particular genre or style of scenario. .
>> >
>> *yawn* you mean they get to write their own dialogue? *l*
>> that's something, i suppose. .
>
> My point here is that being the best, the guy who always wins, is not what it's all
>about.
>At least not for me. I build my character's, PC or NPC, around some theme I wish to
>explore
>in them. I expect the same of my players when I GM.
> A character whose sole function is to be the best in the game, or a player who
>choses all their
>actions to win, rather than to fit the personality of the PC, turn me off.
>
but surely you see that's a problem of it's own? to relate that to
people objecting to a dictatorial gm is a good way of avoiding the
problem. ... .in some campaigns i've seen a player is labeled a
'power player' whenever he doesn't want to just get his ass kicked. .
>
>--
>Rook
>Also known as Arcady on #herochat #gurps and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
>herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
>Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
>Gurps is for discussion of the GURPS RolePlaying Game
>
>Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
>http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
>
>Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
>http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
>
>
>
From: "David Nasset, Sr." <dnasset@gr.cc.wa.us>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 00:28:47 -0700
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On Wednesday, October 08, 1997 8:18 PM jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au said:
<snip>
>>Since you were attacking my position, and that's what I was talking
>>about, yes, I'm sorry, I did think that.
>>
>
>i wasn't attacking jack. . . you haven't got the gist- i allow
*unlimited pc possibilities* that is if the pc's think up a plausable
option, they can try it-
If it is a workable answer, I always allow the PCs to try. Generally,
they succeed.
>you just give them the old 'either/or' option, both options planned
by you. .
No, as a matter of fact, I don't. I, personally, don't like 'no-win'
scenarios, as a GM, and almost never run them. When I do, it is
because the players say that this is what they want.
<snip>
>in a rpg? why not clone tissue? this isn't real life, it's an rpg:
>endless possiblities are the appeal of the system. . .
Endless possibilities are the appeal of the system to whom? Obviously
you, but not everyone thinks that RPGs require that they have
unlimited options to be enjoyable. Why am I the bad guy for wanting to
occasionally play something different? Because I am the GM, even
though I said that I wanted to be a _player_ in such scenarios?
<snip>
>>True. That, in fact, is the tragedy of antinomy- there _is no_
>>solution.
>>
>
>exactly. . booooring!
For you. Not necessarily for all players, in all games.
>and the tregedy of the dictionary deffinition is that
>there are *multiple* solution, but they cost. .
Odd. That certainly isn't part of my dictionary's definition. Any of
them.
>so the gm just decided when this occurs?
Not necessarily.
> what if in that circumstance the
>pc's come up with a solution? does the gm just say 'sorry, this isn't
a 'fix-it'
>scenario'?
No, they get to fix it. Then, if they still want a no-win scenario, I
would have to start over.
>>I think we agree that this all started as a misunderstanding.
>>
>
>once again, it's not a misunderstanding. . . in future, please just
>assume i'm out to get you, ok? *j/k*
If and when I decide this, you will probably never notice. I will
simply killfile you. So far, I haven't had to do this to anyone, but I
may if you a) repeatedly assume things about me, just so you can dump
on me; b) say enough offensive things aimed at me personally; or c)
continue to repeat the same, boring opinions, over and over, rather
than add something fresh and new. So far you pretty much hold the
record for all of the above.
Filksinger
From: "David Nasset, Sr." <dnasset@gr.cc.wa.us>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 00:36:33 -0700
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On Wednesday, October 08, 1997 8:19 PM, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
wrote:
>At 03:15 PM 10/7/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>>>limiting? wait, they give the pc's a choice in matters, so they
>>limit? nno-ot!
>>
>>
>>No, limited in that certain types of scenarios are forbidden.
>>Personally, as a player, I would prefer to be able to, at least
once,
>>play a "no-win" scenario. You, however, have decided that they are
>>unfair and should be forbidden. Your choice, but with a good GM I
>>_want_ to sometimes have my choices limited.
>>
>
>i play no win situations. . . all the time! and my glorious pc's
>often win anyway- can everyone say 'superhero'?
"I play no win scenarios, but I let the players win." Can anyone say,
"Unclear on concept"?
It isn't a "no win" scenario if winning is possible. By definition.
>the difference is
>my original intent, and that is to let the pc's contribute, instead
>of just standing around.
How is that a difference? What makes you think that I don't do these
things? Please stop telling me what I do or do not do, just so you can
claim you do something different and better.
>i write 'pc's might come up with
>a solution' where you write 'pcs ball their eyes out and shake
>fists at heaven'
Ooh, more mind reading. How impressive.
>>>Heros are people who change things DESPITE it being 'impossible' to
>>do so. .
>>
>>I get to play _that_ all the time. That is one of the most common
>>major theme in comics- winning against impossible odds. I want
>>something different, including, upon occasion, truly limited
>>scenarios. Detective stories where you really do have only one
chance
>>to catch the villain. A tragic conflict between two equally right
>>propositions where one or the other _must_ lose.
>>
>
>the difference is you seem to set it out.
If and _only_ if the players indicate that that is what they want.
>the gm determines in
>advance wether there is a solution or not, irrespective of the
>pc's actions.
When the players indicate that this is the sort of game they want,
yes. Only then.
>i've had pc's fail miserably in the most
>simple of scenarios because they couldn't *quite* come up with
>an option. . .
Fine. However, that is not a "no-win" scenario, that's failure. I like
roleplaying failure, sometimes.
>>So long as these are well made and only occasional, I _want_ limits,
>>even severe ones.
>>
>
>
>limited by scenario or circumstance?
Uh, in a role-playing game, what circumstance could limit me, save the
scenario? My own personal lacks and failures? Sorry, I don't need a
role-playing game to experience _that_.
Filksinger
From: "David Nasset, Sr." <dnasset@gr.cc.wa.us>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 00:50:55 -0700
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On Wednesday, October 08, 1997 8:35 PM, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
wrote:
>At 01:02 AM 10/8/97 -0700, you wrote:
>> It doesn't take a bad GM to create a 'no win' scenario.
<snip>
>>The doctors didn't fail to save both because they were
>>incompetent, but because sometimes that's just the way it is.
>>
>
>yes- but not becuase 'god' says so. and your 'i want to play it,
>so others must as well' is not an acceptable option when making
>stories.
WHOSE 'I want to play it, so others must as well'? I said that I
wanted to play it as a player, I have never indicated that I force it
on my players on that basis. I could just as easily claim that you
force your players to play only scenarios that you would like to play
in, on as little evidence.
>A situation should be 'no-win' becuase that the way
>it turns out, not becase that's the way the gm planns it. .
Sorry, just because you say, "It should be this way," doesn't make it
so. A no-win scenario, _by definition_, has no way to win. A GM who
created a scenario where it was _impossible_ to win, and created it
_accidentally_, without knowing that he was creating an unwinable
scenario, is incompetent.
>>>So if i provide my players with a no win situation, usually they
will
>>win
>>>anyway, just to spite me...:)
>>
>>One of my favorite Paranoia games had exactly that happen to me. The
>>one I mentioned about a week ago. It is fun when that happens, but
>>sometimes I, as a player, want a one answer or even no answer
>>scenario.
>>
>
>or is that you, the gm?
No, it is me, the player. Please stop trying to force me into the role
of "bad GM", so you can dump on me.
>a player can make these suggestions, but it
>is unfair for a gm to do so. ..
Now its unfair for a GM to make _suggestions_ in the game he referees?
>btw, most players won't care if the gm forces them into a tough
choice-
>like all railroading, it's not very entertaining, and players resent
it
>. . . . . so your not going to get tragedy on any real level, just
>cardboard melodrama. . . .
I refuse to design scenarios to match what you want, rather than what
my players have asked for, based upon your keen knowledge of what they
will or will not like. Please stop assuming that I choose to do this,
without their input. Quite the opposite is true.
>to get TRAGEDY, you establish a trend where the players know the will
>suceed if they're smart enough. ... and when they fail. . . it's
their
>own fault. . . ....
Tragedy and failure are not synonyms. If my players ask for a no win
scenario, who are you to say they can't have one?
Filksinger
From: "David Nasset, Sr." <dnasset@gr.cc.wa.us>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:00:07 -0700
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On Wednesday, October 08, 1997 8:43 PM, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
wrote:
>At 10:38 AM 10/8/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
><massive philistine snip-job>
>
>>The fact that a 'species' gets wiped out in the process does not
make the
>>situation a 'worse' one. Species cannot claim 'moral' rights to
existance
>>over and above the 'moral' rights of the individuals that compose
the
>>species. Hitler would have been just as evil and wrong if he had
been wiping
>>out millions of people at random, rather than trying to exterminate
the
>>Jewish people. Genocide is simply a selective process of murder. How
much is
>>a 'culture' worth, really? Is it equal in worth to the life of a
single
>>extra sentient? One hundred? One million?
>>
>>Now, you want a moral quandry - here's one. By killing _one_ mutant
(who
>>knows about this, but has no intention of dying, thank you very
much), you
>>can develop a _cure_ for, say, several forms of cancer. What do you
do?
>>
>>
>>
>
>the point is moot- because no matter what the pc's are forced to
>do the players are not going to feel bad about a situation they
>have no real choice about.
A doctor never feels bad because he had to amputate a leg to save a
life? A police officer never feels bad because he had to shoot someone
to stop a murder? People feeling bad about situations where they had
"no real choice" happens all the time.
>.railroading does not lead to good
>role-playing. . . these actions are only going to have weight
>if the players make their own decision. . .
Generally true. However, I refuse to limit the game by forbidding such
scenarios, if that is what the players want, or if it is truly
appropriate to the scenario, campaign, and gaming group.
Generally, there are all kinds of things that GMs shouldn't put in a
scenario. Deus ex machina is one. Railroading is another. No win
scenarios can be a third. NPCs who do the real work, while the players
get their a**es whupped.
However, any of these can, on occasion, be just what is required to
make a game work. Real skill as a GM is when you can introduce any of
these elements, _as needed only_ , and afterwards the players are
happy with the game _and_ the game was better because of what you did
that you "shouldn't" do.
Filksinger
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:31:56 -0400
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: GMing Question #1
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Hi,
There seem to be a lot of parallel messages going back and forth on this
issue. Would it be possible for people to try and consolidate their thoughts
into one or two posts rather than respond to each and every message?
Thanks,
--
Geoff Speare
OMG
geoff@omg.org
Reply-To: "Debbie & Yancy" <yevans@pty.com>
From: "Debbie & Yancy" <yevans@pty.com>
Subject: Question regarding Unsubscribing
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:47:54 -0500
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How do you unsubscribe from this list? I seem to of misplaced my welcome
letter with these instructions. Could someone send me the info on this
please?
Thanks
Yancy
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 09:48:29 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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At 09:52 PM 10/7/97 -0700, Eric Chaves wrote:
>To turn the tables on PCs like this, have THEM walking down a country road
>and have someone come out and try to kill them for things they *might* do
>in the future. And have the future heros have a perfectly justifiable
>explination
There's a scenario similar to this in Kingdom of Champions; the title
(ironically enough, given recent events) is "Candle In the Wind." It seems
that a year from now, the ReDirection Cartel will capture and brainwash the
PCs into becoming pupper rulers in VIPER's bid for world conquest, and some
UK heroes, now somewhat older and less squeamish, have gone back in time to
stop them -- the PCs -- from surviving long enough to let that happen.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:53:57 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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>To turn the tables on PCs like this, have THEM walking down a country road
>and have someone come out and try to kill them for things they *might* do
>in the future. And have the future heros have a perfectly justifiable
>explination
An interesting example of this can be found in the early issues of 'Jason
Kriter, Toyboy' (keep your _sick_ imaginations in check, people, it's about
a 8 year old super-rich genius child with all sorts of robot toys and stuff
- pencilled by Michael Golden, good stuff). Basically, Jason is trying to
invent teleportation technology, but gets attacked by a trans-temporal
warrior who makes havoc in the local area with dinosaurs, cavemen, misplaced
airplanes, etc, etc. It finally comes out that Jason had inadvertantly
discovered time travel technology, which would later lead to worldwide
devastation and timestream pollution (imagine wars fought with time travel
technology, yeek!). The whole purpose of the attack was not to kill Jason
(wouldn't work, for some reason), but to convince him not to further pursue
the technology by showing the consequences. Jason discontinues his research,
and the time traveller gets erased from the timestream (cue violins)..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 11:31:03 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Reduced END Question
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Trevor Barrie wrote:
>
> On 4 Oct 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> >
> > Use of casual Strength is still an exertion of Strength, regardless of how
> > much Strength is used.
>
> I don't think that it is, any more than the fidgeting constantly done by
> a human body is. To put it another way, it makes no sense that you can
> tire somebody out by pestering them with Entangles or Grabs that are too
> weak for them to even notice.
<IMHO>
Casual STR is intended to be used as part of another action, generally
one already involving STR or movement. All the examples I find in the
books refer to this use. If Ogre is already running, a mere 10 STR grab
is not going to even slow him down, unless he is at the END of his rope.
On the other hand, if ProjectoBrick has fired his energy blasts, I would
rule that any grab >= 3 STR will reduce his DCV until he earns his next
action. Moreover, if the character is deliberately using less than full
STR (such as handling a delicate object), then Casual STR is 1/2 of the
STR being used. I understand that these are on the borderline between
rules interpretation and house rules, but they are what *I* would have
intended if I had by written the words that are in the rulebook. Of
ocurse, I would have been much clearer. ;-)
Viewed this way, the book rule seems perfectly appropriate.
</IMHO>
Questions for the group.
(1) What END do you charge for dodge, block, etc?
(2) Do you in any way factor in STR for blocks? It seems a reasonable
interpretation that Casual STR could allow one to ignore a block as well,
but it is equally reasonable to argue that deflecting or sidestepping the
blow is a valid SFX for block, and that this requires very little STR.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:31:10 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: No win Scenerios (Was GM Question #1)
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> i think modules are best served if they introduce charaters and plots-
> which are open-ended. A far better resource is one which inspires the
> gm, even if in terms of a particular genre or style of scenario. .
Now who are you to say what a particualr GM should or shouldn't
use?
> but surely you see that's a problem of it's own? to relate that to
> people objecting to a dictatorial gm is a good way of avoiding the
> problem. ... .in some campaigns i've seen a player is labeled a
> 'power player' whenever he doesn't want to just get his ass kicked. .
Hmmm. Not the label I'd use, unless he/she uses abusive powers
and combinations to set up a 1 dimensional power character whose sole
purpose is to never be beaten in combat. Non-combat, what's that? My
solution here, in the one major case I've seen, was to assign a very
emotionally and RP complex character with no awesome desolid and invis,
but no defenses and a small NND only when solid (and visible). A
challenge, yes, but also a hell of a scout.
Of course, you also have the players who complain about the GM
always kicking their characters asses. I've seen this situation and they
complain about a fight where they win but are hit a couple of times. When
two heros face a villian worth 60 points less than either, they complain
because one lost some STUN in the fight. That's not kicking their ass,
that's just Superhero combat.
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 13:27:40 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Open Ended (was No win) Scenerios
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At 01:31 PM 10/9/97 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> i think modules are best served if they introduce charaters and plots-
>> which are open-ended. A far better resource is one which inspires the
>> gm, even if in terms of a particular genre or style of scenario. .
>
> Now who are you to say what a particualr GM should or shouldn't
>use?
That looked to me more like a call to writers than to GMs. At least, as
one who fits in both categories (albeit more snugly into the first), that's
how I took it.
And to a point, he's right. Rather than simply give a fixed plot that
the GM and PCs alike just observe happening with little chance to actually
change the events (at least, before the final scene), scenario writers
should put together materials that help the GM to think up situations to
put the PCs through, and that help the players creatively work the PCs
through those situations.
Arguably a good example of this (if I do say so myself) is the "Snake
Wars" scenario on my Original Hero Stuff Page. Here the PCs are drawn into
the middle of a fight between COIL and VIPER, and while they're practically
led by the hand into trouble, it's up to them to get out of it. If they're
sharp, they'll win the big battle; but if they lose it, there are several
(OK, a few) options for getting out and even utilizing new resources. The
ball is served into the PCs' court, and it's up to them to return with
something creative.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
From: "David Nasset, Sr." <dnasset@gr.cc.wa.us>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:17:55 -0700
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On Thursday, October 09, 1997 10:59 AM, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>To turn the tables on PCs like this, have THEM walking down a
country road
>>and have someone come out and try to kill them for things they
*might* do
>>in the future. And have the future heros have a perfectly
justifiable
>>explination
>
>An interesting example of this can be found in the early issues of
'Jason
>Kriter, Toyboy'
<snip>
There was an old science fiction story about a man who was in his
office, trying to decide which of two women he would marry. One was a
sweet, demure, wonderful woman, while the other was a strong,
dominant, wonderful woman.
He decides upon the demure one, when someone teleports into his
office. The woman informs him that, if he picks that woman, her demure
nature will so influence him and the important people he deals with
that women will not stand strong enough to make their opinions matter
in future events. The result of this is global nuclear war, with this
woman being one of the few survivors.
The man considers this, and decides to marry the other woman.
Suddenly, a man appears in his office, and tells him a story about his
future. A future where strong women dominate the world, and men are
slaves, mostly castrated to keep them docile.
The man looks at these two people, both of whom are convincing (under
the circumstances), either one of which appears to be ready to kill
him to prevent their own future. He stands up, goes to the office
door, opens the door, and says to his secretary, "Alice, will you
marry me?"
*POOF*
<G>
Filksinger
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:42:50 +0000
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Reply-to: ghoyle1@airmail.net
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> I do not use Heromaker, largely because it ceased to be available about
> the time that I became serious about GMing Hero. I *do* have my own
> Excel-based sheet to do the calculations, and am working on versions in
> Access and Powerbuilder in my copious spare time, largely as a way of
> learning more about those products.
Heromaker is still available; for more details, see
http://www.herogames.com
>
> The most experienced two members of the SGU use HeroMaker, but they both
> warn that it contains some minor bugs and will allow illegal things. As
> a simple example, it does not enforce the doubling rule for
> characteristics over normal maxima if that disadvantage is taken. Just a
> caveat not to rely overmuch on the program for rules interpretations.
This only happens if the characteristics in question are bought as
powers, which is not a bug; it's a feature of the rules the
program was based on (though not a well-publicized one).
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 01:47:43 +0000
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Reply-to: ghoyle1@airmail.net
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> Guy Hoyle wrote:
> >
> > > a simple example, it does not enforce the doubling rule for
> > > characteristics over normal maxima if that disadvantage is taken. Just a
> > > caveat not to rely overmuch on the program for rules interpretations.
> >
> > This only happens if the characteristics in question are bought as
> > powers,
>
> Where in the BBB does it say, or even imply, that one can end-run around
> normal characteristic maxima by buying the characteristics as powers?
What I mean to say is, that even the BBB does not explain whether
characteristics bought as powers are affected by "normal
characteristic maxima"; since the two have different special
effects, why should they be lumped together? Of course, I wouldn't
let people who bought NCM to buy characteristics as powers, myself,
unless the special effects justified it (powered armor, for example).
I think this very point has been addressed on the list before; was
there any kind of consensus or even a ruling from the Hero boys?
>
> > which is not a bug; it's a feature of the rules the
> > program was based on (though not a well-publicized one).
>
> Huh? The program is not based on Hero 4th Edition? Prithee tell, upon
> what *is* it based? How many other discrepancies are there between the
> two? I am underwhelmed.
No, I was saying that it IS based on the 4th edition rules; it's not
a bug in the program. What discrepencies have you (or anybody else
on this list) found? Seems to be remarkably faithful to me, but I'd
like to see what other problems people have found with it.
Guy
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 19:04:18 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: No-Win Scenarios [Re: GMing Question #1]
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OK, I have seen a lot of nonsense on this subject, on both sides, and
much of it more than once, since several posters seem to be double and
triple-posting stuff. I am also getting a little weary of postings with
more quotation than new content.
I will respect Jeffrey Speare's request and consolidate my responses.
First, my overall, completely objective, absolutely true comments, with
which no reasonable person could disagree. ;-)
Messrs Jones and Filksinger are both wrong, some of the time, as are many
other people who have written on this subject.
(1) Filksinger, you overstate the case when saying that a no-win scenario
has no solution whatsoever. I think you mean no solution that does not
involve a significant downside. The players can "win" by selecting the
solution that they hate least.
(2) Filksinger, I see no failure if the players find a way to "win". If
they were extremely creative, roleplayed well, and found a way that
satisfies them, kudos and XP all around!
(3) Mr. Jones, you are being absurd when you assert that only a bad GM
would ever put in a no-win scenario. Life is mostly *about* no-win
scenarios. Most bad situations start out as solutions to an earlier bad
situation. There is no victory without loss. Beowulf dies saving his
people who are ungrateful and cowardly. Sauron is destroyed, but the
Three Rings lose their power as a result. Hitler and Tojo are defeated,
but thirty million people die.
(4) John & Ron & everyone who minimized the moral dilemma of the last 800
survivors of an alien race vs the thousands of humans who would die if
they landed, I say, "Shame! Shame!" Are any of you really that
stone-hearted that you cannot feel the tragedy? BTW, the word "genocide"
is precisely appropriate. If the aliens really have no other option, and
are not a super-altruistic race, they will attempt to land and you will
have to blow them up to prevent it. It may be the first case
of justifiable genocide since Cro Magnon exterminated Neanderthal, but it
is the intentional destruction of a race.
(5) To everyone who pooh-poohed the implications of "last of their race",
you fail roleplaying 101 again. Why do you think that we have an
Endangered Species Act? Most species have become irrelevant to human
survival by the time they are on the list. I know people who have stated
openly that they oppose animal testing of medications even though they
admit that it saves human lives. Do you mean that you think there would
not be a "Save the Orions" movement?
(6) To Mr. Jones, who accused Filksinger of setting up an either/or
scenario, I think that you do him an injustice. There are two *obvious*
options; there is no reason to prevent the players from exploring others.
Nevertheless, there are potential problems in every possible solution,
and the GM would be remiss not to explore them as the players search for
options.
- Could a confined environment be set up on Earth?
- Can we take the chance that it would isolate the virus?
- Would the aliens accept racial imprisonment?
- What of the great benefits to us from their advanced science?
Might it not save more lives than it cost?
- Are we *really* certain that the virus cannot be cured, nor
a vaccine developed?
- Are we *really* certain that the casualties from the virus
would not be greater? Perhaps much greater?
(7) Mr. Jones, you may claim that you give your players *unlimited*
options, but you can't possibly mean this. Will you let a character buy
an 1800-active-point power in a 250-pt game? If not, you are limiting
their options by the power level. Will you let someone who is SPD 5 act
seven times in a turn to solve the problem? If not, you are limiting
their options by the rules. Will you allow the players five game days to
disarm a bomb that is going off in five minutes? If not, you are
limiting them by the situation. Are your PCs immune from the law? If
not, you are limiting them by the setting.
(8) Filksinger, your last few messages were getting a bit strident.
Please take five minutes to cool off. :-)
Donning my flameproof suit. Remember guys, its only a game... its only a
game...
====================================================================
jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>
> At 11:01 PM 10/5/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
> >
> >> the problem arises when the gm's 'reality' rejects the pc's choices, even though real >>life rarely works that way. .
> >
> >{Confused look}
> >
> >How does the GM "accept" or "reject" the PC's choices? The GM sets up
> >the situation, the PC's react to it.
>
> (confused look, funny hairdo)
> the gm can reject whatever he wants - just by saying "no, that desn't work".
{scratching head, looking at funny hairdo}
Yes, but ...
Maybe I have just had good GMs. When a GM has said to me, "you can't do
X" there is almost always a good reason that makes sense in terms of
the rules, the setting and the powers and disadvantages of the
characters. I can't think of the last time a GM that I played with
said, "No, you can't do that because it isn't the solution I was
thinking of."
Perhaps I should have said, if an action is allowable under the
rules, does not violate a psych or phys lim and is not impossible in
the campaign setting, why interfere? If the action has consequences
(such as breaking the law), then the PC should be given fair
warning, but if the PC wants to take the risk, go ahead.
Could it be that (gasp!) we are agreeing, more or less?
====================================================================
In response to Mr. Jones, who misspelled "Berthold Brecht":
Ich verstehe nicht wie er kommt in den Sache der Hitlers Kunst? Brecht
war ein Dichter, ein Romanschriftsteller und ein Dramatiker, nicht ein
Maler, Kunstkritiker oder Kunsthaendler.
(How does [Brecht] come into the matter of Hitler's art? He was a poet,
novelist and playwright, not a painter, art critic nor dealer.)
In any event, I have seen some of Hitler's paintings in books, and I
don't think that you could even sell them at First Friday! (And someone
will buy almost any trash imaginable there.)
====================================================================
Brian Wong wrote:
>
> I'm reminded of an old Hero module.
> Wrath of the Seven Horsemen or something like that.
>
> It was set up so the PC's would lose the first several
> fights they got into with the villians, then they would learn to overcome
> them later.
This is a fairly standard sort of plot line: I assume that special
knowledge, a special weapon was needed or a special martial arts
technique was needed to defeat the 7H?
>
> Well, on the issue of players who can't take a no-win scenerio, my
> players at the time I ran this refused to continue play after losing for
> the third time.
Well, if the players were not getting *some* sort of positive feedback by
the third go-around, there was a problem with the scenario as written.
The usual formula is, "third time is the charm." That doesn't mean that
the PCs have to have an auto-win after the third encounter, but they
should at least be getting the idea that they have part of the answer.
> But sometimes you get people who feel wining is the goal over all other
> aspects of roleplaying.
Hmmm....I have never thought of wining and dining as the reasons for
roleplaying, or even really compatible with it.
Oh! You meant "whining". Yes, I have run into players who seem to feel
that whining is one of the major goals of roleplaying. Especially when
they aren't winning.
;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)
======================================================================
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:05:23 -0400 (EDT)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: No-Win Scenarios [Re: GMing Question #1]
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>(4) John & Ron & everyone who minimized the moral dilemma of the last 800
>survivors of an alien race vs the thousands of humans who would die if
>they landed, I say, "Shame! Shame!" Are any of you really that
>stone-hearted that you cannot feel the tragedy?
:-) Of course it's tragic! But what about the moral dilemma of the aliens?
Do they care that 1000000 sentients will die if they land?
>(5) To everyone who pooh-poohed the implications of "last of their race",
>you fail roleplaying 101 again. Why do you think that we have an
>Endangered Species Act? Most species have become irrelevant to human
>survival by the time they are on the list.
Biodiversity _should_ be maintained. There are several reasons, but setting
aside any religious/moral ones for the moment, until we've fully cracked the
genetic code and how life works, we don't want to lose any potential DNA
that might be useful. Another reason is just that we 'like' having wildlife
around. From a purely evolutionary standpoint, though, it's survival of the
fittest, and anything that doesn't serve humanity's purposes will fall by
the wayside.
Fortunately, we're barely intelligent enough to realize that we don't know
exactly how the biosphere works, so for now we don't want to mess with it by
killing off too many species (if we can help it). Thus the 'Endangered
Species Act' is just a form of preventative self-preservation. Note that
humanity is the only species ever to do this (but also the only species to
ever have the power of wiping out other species in a wholesale fashion).
>I know people who have stated
>openly that they oppose animal testing of medications even though they
>admit that it saves human lives. Do you mean that you think there would
>not be a "Save the Orions" movement?
Not at a 1250:1 death/life ratio. In fact, I can see almost _any_ alien race
being 'turned away' from Earth for the simple reason of not wanting to
introduce tons of new, dangerous microbes to the planet's biosphere. Yes,
humanity actually does learn from it's mistakes (sometimes...).
>(6) To Mr. Jones, who accused Filksinger of setting up an either/or
>scenario, I think that you do him an injustice. There are two *obvious*
>options; there is no reason to prevent the players from exploring others.
>Nevertheless, there are potential problems in every possible solution,
>and the GM would be remiss not to explore them as the players search for
>options.
>
> - Could a confined environment be set up on Earth?
If so, the whole situation changes.
> - Can we take the chance that it would isolate the virus?
Yes, we can. That at least is the 'humanitarian' thing to do. The original
situation was 'if the aliens land, 1000000 humans will die'.
> - Would the aliens accept racial imprisonment?
> - What of the great benefits to us from their advanced science?
> Might it not save more lives than it cost?
That's a game we can't really play. Why not? It gets out of hand far, far
too easily. I could use the same argument to justify all sorts of vile
experimentation on other humans, for example.
> - Are we *really* certain that the virus cannot be cured, nor
> a vaccine developed?
Again, the original situation was pretty definite. If the aliens, with all
that super-science, couldn't manage it, stupid human's chances are pretty low.
> - Are we *really* certain that the casualties from the virus
> would not be greater? Perhaps much greater?
Nope.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 21:08:19 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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OK, I will take my consolidated crack at this subject as well.
================================================================
Pet Peeve: please note the distinction between "affect" and "effect".
affect v.t. to produce an effect on something.
n. an aspect of personality.
effect v.t. to produce, accomplish or fulfil.
n. a change in the properties of an object.
Thus, when you effect a character, you create it. When you affect a
character, you change it in some way, as by doing BODY.
==================================================================
Desolid vs NNDs:
A desolid character is immune to all attacks, including NNDs, except for
the listed special effect and for attacks with Affects Desolid. The
rules are clear on this. Having *all* desolid characters w/o Life
Support be affected by certain types of attacks is equivalent to granting
those attacks Affects Desolid(+1/2) for free. While the GM can certainly
so rule, I would simply prefer to have that be part of the standard
description of such attacks, and place the extra points on the character
sheets of the villains.
==================================================================
The book distinguishes three types of Life Support:
(1) Metabolic: breathing, eating, excreting -- 15 pts for total.
(2) Safe Environment: heat/cold, vacuum/pressure, radiation: 9 pts total.
(3) Immunities: disease, age: 6 points total.
Cost for total life support = 30 points.
I think that it is logical to distinguish how these interact with
desolid:
(1) Desolid does not provide metabolic needs: period. I have no idea
about excretion. The prospect of a character in gaseous form who is jet
propelled (Baked Bean Man) is best left unexplored. Figuring out why
your desolid character is affected by lack of air and not by a gas attack
is an exercise in character development. So is figuring out how your
character walks on a surface that he cannot touch or otherwise affect.
(2) Environmental conditions can be modeled as attacks with the
limitation, not vs Life Support. They can also be modeled as everyman
susceptabilities. Personally, I prefer the latter, but either way, it
seems straightforward that Desolid would protect one from the effect,
unless of the listed special effect for that desolid. While one could
make a different argument for vacuum/pressure, based on its relation to
the "metabolic" life support, I prefer to be consistent for the group.
(3) Immunities are not really relevant to desolidification. There is no
reason that one should not age when desolid, and no reason that one's
diseases should not go desolid with one. Of course, one may be immune to
the *vector* of a disease, but that is a different matter. Of course,
there is the view that immunity to disease does not affect diseases on
already has.
=====================================================================
LS vs ED.
Life Support, IMHO, is intended to cover effects that are longer-term,
and therefore less easy to define, than are the other defenses. Life
Support is also in the same category as Desolid in that it constitutes an
absolute defense when it applies. It is clearly stated that LS: Safe
Environment does not protect from attacks, but the converse is not
clearly stated.
If I were to envision armor that would protect against a flame blast, I
would envision something with
- a very high melting point (say 3000C) to divert the blast.
- a high heat of fusion to allow momentary contact over 3000C.
- a high specific heat or insulation to keep the armor from becoming
dangerously hot.
- good heat dispersal, so that the local heating cause by an attack just
warms up the whole suit by a fraction by the time the next blast comes.
I think that we are all agreed that we would probably describe this as
Armor, OIF. Most GMs would not think additional limitations appropriate.
Now, place the occupant in a 250C room for eight hours.
- the melting point and heat of fusion are irrelevant.
- I don't care how high the specific heat is, the suit will heat up.
- I don't care how good the suit is at distributing heat throughout its
mass, the suit will reach 250C before the time is up.
- I don't care how good the heat dumping system is, there is nowhere to
dump the heat after a while.
When the suit reaches 60C, the occupant will start to get burns. When
the suit reaches 100C, the occupant will be cooking. By 250C, the
occupant will probably be dead.
Now, add LS: Heat, and we would envision some sort of air conditioning
unit. Such a unit would be too slow to be of use against flame blasts,
but it would keep our hero alive.
Now, a Force Field would probably involve a way to dump heat or transform
it into another form of energy that could be radiated away. Again, I
would envision that most such systems would not be designed to maintain a
long-term differential between interior and ambient temperature. It
would certainly not be useful against extremely cold environments.
Of course, one can envision super-efficient armor or force fields that
can maintain such a differential for a long time; however, the majority
of those systems would not be designed to keep someone warm in extreme
cold, which is part of the 3-pt immunity.
Now, there are two ways to reflect this model in the system:
(1) Require that most Armor and Force Field carry an additional
limitation, "Does not work against environmental heat".
(2) Require that Armor or Force Field that protect from environmental
heat and/or cold take LS: Heat/Cold.
I argue that (2) is the option intended by the rules. Note that nowhere
does a book example include a limitation such as the one above. Now,
someone may try to argue that the "Real Armor" limitation covers the
case, but the description contradicts this: Real Armor will get muggy in
hot climates -- this is a big comedown from living in the fiery furnace
for a mere -1/4 limitation!
Also, consider the fact that LS: Heat/Cold is explicitly stated not to
protect against attacks. If one were to point up a 250C room, it would
probably be a small RKA (1D6 or so) with the gradual effect limitation.
Any reasonable amount of armor of force field would prang such an attack,
rendering LS: Heat/Cold irrelevant to most superheroic campaigns.
Conclusion: a large ED will allow you to survive short-term contact with
live lava, but will not allow you to live in it indefinitely. I admit
that there is no clear guideline on the boundary between these cases.
======================================================================
There is IMHO a problem with Life Support as written, in that there is
little point incentive to take limitations on the safe environments and
immunities, and that there is no easy way to quantify either the effects
of environments, nor any guidelines conerning the upper limits to how
severe an environment the power will protect against. The GM is, of
course, free to write house rules, but it would be nice to have
play-tested rules to use.
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 21:17:55 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> Calculus is a killer. Once one has managed to wrap one's mind around
> calculus, basic arithmetic becomes impossible without a calculator.
>
But Calculus *IS* basic arithmetic.
:-)
Actually, this reminds me of a rule we used to have at the SGU when going
out for Chinese food: the youngest non-math major had to compute the
bill. But, of course, Calculus is not math, as any mathemetician will
tell you. And tell you. And ...
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 21:24:00 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org, hero-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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Brian Wong wrote:
> I've been a champions GM since 1985. Yet I still agree here.
> Heromaker for me has answered a few of the tough rules calls in character
> generation.
> Besides, having lost my file of 200+ PC's/NPC's to a monsoon when
> I lived in asia; keeping them on computer now is a major bonus.
> Not that I've managed to come even close to rebuilding that
> collection.
I do not use Heromaker, largely because it ceased to be available about
the time that I became serious about GMing Hero. I *do* have my own
Excel-based sheet to do the calculations, and am working on versions in
Access and Powerbuilder in my copious spare time, largely as a way of
learning more about those products.
The most experienced two members of the SGU use HeroMaker, but they both
warn that it contains some minor bugs and will allow illegal things. As
a simple example, it does not enforce the doubling rule for
characteristics over normal maxima if that disadvantage is taken. Just a
caveat not to rely overmuch on the program for rules interpretations.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
From: "David Nasset, Sr." <dnasset@gr.cc.wa.us>
Subject: Re: No-Win Scenarios [Re: GMing Question #1]
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:50:39 -0700
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-----Original Message-----
From: Robert A. West <robtwest@erols.com>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Thursday, October 09, 1997 8:41 PM
Subject: No-Win Scenarios [Re: GMing Question #1]
>OK, I have seen a lot of nonsense on this subject, on both sides, and
>much of it more than once, since several posters seem to be double
and
>triple-posting stuff. I am also getting a little weary of postings
with
>more quotation than new content.
My apologies for that. I did trim things down, usually as much as I
thought I could and still have my answer make sense, but too much was
getting through, anyway. I'll be more careful (and more ruthless) in
my trimming in the future.
>I will respect Jeffrey Speare's request and consolidate my responses.
>First, my overall, completely objective, absolutely true comments,
with
>which no reasonable person could disagree. ;-)
Well, I'll grant that your comments are reasonable. That's the best
that can be hoped for, much of the time.
>Messrs Jones and Filksinger are both wrong, some of the time, as are
many
>other people who have written on this subject.
Undoubtably true.
>(1) Filksinger, you overstate the case when saying that a no-win
scenario
>has no solution whatsoever.
<snip>
True. However, I was still trying to work with the "antinomy" that I
had refered to. With antinomy, the two obvious answers are _equally_
bad. That is why it is so hard to create antinomy. I might be able to
create true antinomy for a single player, but a group of players will
almost certainly take sides.
>(2) Filksinger, I see no failure if the players find a way to "win".
If
>they were extremely creative, roleplayed well, and found a way that
>satisfies them, kudos and XP all around!
If they specifically asked for a "no-win" scenario, then I have failed
to come through for them on this request. Other than that, no, there
is no failure involved in a no-win scenario that is won anyway.
<snip>
>(8) Filksinger, your last few messages were getting a bit strident.
>Please take five minutes to cool off. :-)
Quite possibly. Every so once in a while, I find myself arguing with
Jones a.k.a. happyelf! a.k.a. Shouty Boy. So far, the only result has
seemed to be for him to ignore most of what I said, while getting more
insulting. I had finally been reduced to "broken record", where I
repeat the same thing over and over, in the hopes of finally getting
through, but neglected to do this off list. For that, again, my
apologies.
>Donning my flameproof suit. Remember guys, its only a game... its
only a
>game...
Don't worry. I have to actually be offended, at least a little, before
I will flame someone, even a little bit. Nothing you have said offends
me in the slightest.
Filksinger
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From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams)
Date: 10 Oct 97 05:03:18 GMT
Subject: NEW TOPIC: Favorite Campaign / Storyline / Hero/ Villain
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Various:
Sci-Fi game, with us the PCs as founders of a Dysen Sphere world and the power
of knowing somewhat of how to run it (Monty Haul, but a break).
Dark Champion sort of campaign. Where we were not heros but not villiens. Maybe
call it pseudo cyberpunk. My character was very wierd. Lived off drugs, high
DAM, PD, as well as High REC and REGEN. One of his presense attacks was his
ability to almost live off pain EXAMPLE: after being stabbed by a wolverine
clone, he said "Oh, that feels so good!". Reall sick campaign, but a nice break
from the normal good guys.
(His name was Dr. Pain, but most everyone claled him "Renfield" (Dracula
movies).
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:29:52 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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At 09:52 PM 10/7/97 -0700, Eric Chaves wrote:
>To turn the tables on PCs like this, have THEM walking down a country road
>and have someone come out and try to kill them for things they *might* do
>in the future. And have the future heros have a perfectly justifiable
>explination
Check out the "Candle in the Wind" scenario in KINGDOM OF CHAMPIONS. Same
premise, though maybe lighter-handed: heroes from a future "resistance
force" travel back in time a la "Terminator" to deal with other heroes (the
PCs) who are 'destined' to 'betray' (in reality, they're mind-controlled or
something) the Earth to a mastermind villain.
==
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:29:58 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: No-Win Scenarios [Re: GMing Question #1]
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At 07:04 PM 10/9/97 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
>(1) Filksinger, you overstate the case when saying that a no-win scenario
>has no solution whatsoever. I think you mean no solution that does not
>involve a significant downside. The players can "win" by selecting the
>solution that they hate least.
This is a matter of definitions, not "right" or "wrong". Filksinger seems
to lean towards a definition of "no-win" that means "no *acceptable*
solution". What is and is not "acceptable" is relative to the specific
players and characters involved, of course.
>(3) Mr. Jones, you are being absurd when you assert that only a bad GM
>would ever put in a no-win scenario. Life is mostly *about* no-win
>scenarios.
And if you think life == RPGs, there's some nice young men in their clean
white coats who want to talk to you. :]
>Most bad situations start out as solutions to an earlier bad
>situation. There is no victory without loss.
While Jones was probably being too absolutist, I think you're doing the same
here. Not everything in life, and *certainly* not everything in adventure
fiction, is so "downer". To put it another way, I would accept that there
is no victory without loss, but (in fiction at least) the "loss" is usually
all on The Other Guy's side of the board, about which the victors don't give
2 beans.
If you and your players enjoy scenarios that ARE so consistently Pyrric,
hey, go nuts. But YOU HAVE TO CHECK FIRST. Most (not all, certainly, just
most) of the players I've known have a "Kirk" streak -- they don't believe
in "no-win scenarios", and would probably lynch the GM who "railroaded" them
into one. As with all facets of roleplaying, your mileage may vary -- so
talk to your players first. This is just simply not a question that can
answered one way or the other for all cases.
>have to blow them up to prevent it. It may be the first case
>of justifiable genocide since Cro Magnon exterminated Neanderthal, but it
>is the intentional destruction of a race.
Just a nitpick, but ... it's doubtful that Cro-Magnon "exterminated"
Neanderthal, at least in the same sense that he was to later exterminate the
passenger pigeon and the dodo. It's possible the 'thals just went the way
of the dinosaurs and the smilodon. Not everything nature tries works.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:30:11 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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At 02:05 AM 10/10/97 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
>Where in the BBB does it say, or even imply, that one can end-run around
>normal characteristic maxima by buying the characteristics as powers?
p. 122, =Normal Characteristic Maxima=
"Powers that raise Characteristics (Growth, Density Increase)
affect Characteristics normally, and are not counted against
the Characteristic Maxima".
Note that this is another wonderful example of the HERO System's intense
dedication towards vague writing, which Steve Peterson has previously
assured me (during Ye Dreade Linked Debate) was actually a feature not a
bug. The rules are SUPPOSED to be easily debatable (Vox said, tongue firmly
in cheek).
You can either take the parenthetical phrase -- "(Growth, Density Increase)"
-- as an example or an itemization. In the latter case, it just means
"characteristics supplied by Growth and Density Increase don't count against
Characteristic Maxima" (and should have been written that way, grumble,
grumble).
As a mere example, this has the following ramifications:
1) CHAR supplied by Absorption, Aid, or Transfer are not affected
by CHAR Maxima -- don't halve their effect past 20.
2) PD & ED from Armor don't count against the Maxima of 8 each.
3) CHAR bought with an Advantage or Limitation, thereby becoming
a "Standard Power", do not count against the Maxima for the
corresponding CHAR.
I agree, the last seems strange -- buy your STR 0 END, and it can be as high
as you want it? But the write-up for Defender definitely follows this
course, paying only standard costs for his OIF Characteristics.
>> which is not a bug; it's a feature of the rules the
>> program was based on (though not a well-publicized one).
>
>Huh? The program is not based on Hero 4th Edition? Prithee tell, upon
>what *is* it based? How many other discrepancies are there between the
>two? I am underwhelmed.
It is based on the 4th Edition. That's what he was saying: this isn't a
well-publicized feature of 4th Edition HERO System.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 02:31:22 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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At 01:47 AM 10/10/97 +0000, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>What I mean to say is, that even the BBB does not explain whether
>characteristics bought as powers are affected by "normal
>characteristic maxima"; since the two have different special
>effects, why should they be lumped together? Of course, I wouldn't
>let people who bought NCM to buy characteristics as powers, myself,
>unless the special effects justified it (powered armor, for example).
Of course, you'd be a flipping loon to allow people to take ANY Power unless
the special effects justified it. That's how HERO works. :] :] :]
--
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Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 01:50:39 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: No-Win Scenarios [Re: GMing Question #1]
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John and Ron Prins wrote:
>
>
> > - Are we *really* certain that the virus cannot be cured, nor
> > a vaccine developed?
>
> Again, the original situation was pretty definite. If the aliens, with all
> that super-science, couldn't manage it, stupid human's chances are pretty low.
Ummm...the original posting never said that the aliens had any reason to
develop a vaccine. By the original hypothesis, the virus is fairly
harmless to the aliens -- perhaps it is their version of the common cold,
or even a symbiont that is essential to their biology.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 01:59:13 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: No-Win Scenarios [Re: GMing Question #1]
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David Nasset, Sr. wrote:
>
> >(2) Filksinger, I see no failure if the players find a way to "win".
> If
> >they were extremely creative, roleplayed well, and found a way that
> >satisfies them, kudos and XP all around!
>
> If they specifically asked for a "no-win" scenario, then I have failed
> to come through for them on this request. Other than that, no, there
> is no failure involved in a no-win scenario that is won anyway.
>
I guess that I am having trouble believing that your players actually
mean a "Please give us a scenario so constructed that we cannot possibly
win or even find a tolerable solution." I keep envisioning, somehow,
despite your clear statements, that they are really saying, "Please give
us a scenario that poses a deep, and possibly irresolvable, moral
dilemma. We don't mind if we can't find a solution."
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 02:05:37 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Guy Hoyle wrote:
>
> > a simple example, it does not enforce the doubling rule for
> > characteristics over normal maxima if that disadvantage is taken. Just a
> > caveat not to rely overmuch on the program for rules interpretations.
>
> This only happens if the characteristics in question are bought as
> powers,
Where in the BBB does it say, or even imply, that one can end-run around
normal characteristic maxima by buying the characteristics as powers?
> which is not a bug; it's a feature of the rules the
> program was based on (though not a well-publicized one).
Huh? The program is not based on Hero 4th Edition? Prithee tell, upon
what *is* it based? How many other discrepancies are there between the
two? I am underwhelmed.
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:12:12 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Customizing it.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 08:18 AM 10/7/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 12:17 AM 10/7/97 -0500, Joel Vallejo wrote:
>>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>
>>> Well, for one thing, a character in my campaign can now
>>> speak...Pilipino..., with
>>> just a couple of clicks instead of a couple of clicks and a few keystrokes.
>>
>>Actually as a Filipino, the language is Tagalog, and it is already
>included in
>>my version of heromaker.
>
> Hm. I'd understood that there was a Pilipino, which is to Tagalog what
>Spanglish is to Spanish (a cross-breeding with English).
>
I'm not sure about that, but as a pale white guy (who has to
Filipino players), I do know that Tagalog is only one dialect used in the
Philippines. Nimbus (one of my guys) said his 'rents speak a different
dialect but had to learn Tagalog because it became the national language by
default.
I believe this is correct, but I can't double-check, as Nimbus and
Force are out of town this weekend.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:22:40 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Pushing
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Here's some questions I have about Pushing, I'm looking for
"official" rulings and also "how do *you* handle it" stuff.
Which Powers are Push-able? Just Attack Powers? Are Movement
Powers fair game? What about Teleportation? Would you allow a character to
Push his Force Field? And how long would *that* last?
Are partial Pushes acceptable? ex. A 10d6 EB pushed to only 11d6
(assume no Advantages). And, if so, is the extra END based off of only how
much was Pushed? ex.2. A 10d6 AP EB pushed to 11d6 AP EB. Does it only
cost 7 extra END?
Basically, *any* comments I can get here (on topic, and
non-threatening : ) would be greatly appreciated and probably helpful.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:47:02 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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At 09:00 AM 10/11/97 +1000, Michael Jones wrote:
I know this is a little off topic...
>the gm is GOD! he can stall any option just by saying
>'that doesn't work', surely you can't be suggesting that the
>pc's can effect this? there are not 'bargaining chips' in an rpg. . .
>
Heck, yeah, there' s bargaining chips! Sometimes, they're even
*actual* chips (i.e. potato) or maybe some soda. Or pizza. Or kewl
drawings the Players did...
- Jerry (who is sorry, but he couldn't resist)
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:51:34 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Pushing/multipowers
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>i say 10 end for 10 active points. furthemore, i only allow
>pushing at the 'base' function of the power- for instance
>you can't push your non-combat movement multiple, or little bits
>of powers like paricular options for invisibility
>
>also, i find this links to multipowers and drains- exactle how
>do you spread out concepts like the base cost of say, teleport,
>and then add things like non-combat multiple? i usually consider
>ncm costs to be part of the 'base points' which are needed to
>make the power go at all. . . . can someone drain off your
>'vacume/high pressure' without affecting your other options?
>
Thanks for the quick response, Michael. I agree with the "no Pushing NCM"
bit heartily.
I didn't actually see you ask about Multipowers. But, on your other points,
I would probably allow a Drain v. LS: Vacuum/High Pressure without it
affecting the other parts of LS. Why? Because I could see LS being bought
as several different Powers. Then again, I might see a SFX argument here...
I wouldn't think you could Drain NCM of a Power, unless perhaps it was
purchased separately, with additional Limitations. What you say about NCM
and extra senses on Invisibility and Images makes sense; they're part of the
"base" Power.
- Jerry
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:53:42 +0000
Subject: Heromaker bugs
Reply-to: ghoyle1@airmail.net
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As an experiment, I tried to print to textfile a copy of a character
with Automaton powers. Amazingly, the powers don't print, though the
points are still spent.
Is this a known bug? Is there a fix or a workaround? Is it just
my machine or copy of Hermaker? What's the HeroSoftware address these
days?
Guy
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
X-Originating-IP: [206.88.2.1]
From: "Todd Hanson" <badtodd@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re:Heromaker: Who uses it?
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:24:28 PDT
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Robert A. West wrote:
>Guy Hoyle wrote:
>> This only happens if the characteristics in question are bought as
>> powers,
>Where in the BBB does it say, or even imply, that one can end-run
around
>normal characteristic maxima by buying the characteristics as powers?
Where in the BBB? Lets see.. multiple (official) published characters
(including Defender) who have normal char. max. but have stats bought
through a suit and don't pay double? I'm sure I could dig up actual
rules references for you, but I don't have my books with me. (Note: I
don't agree with letting you use 'powers' to get around the NCM
limitation and don't allow it in my games, but that doesnt mean that the
official rules dont say its okay).
>Huh? The program is not based on Hero 4th Edition? Prithee tell, upon
>what *is* it based? How many other discrepancies are there between the
>two? I am underwhelmed.
Maybe you should actually TRY a product before you slam how it works. In
every instance that someone has questioned how Heromaker handles a
power, after checking with Hero Games, it has turned out that Heromaker
is correct. The guys who developed this worked pretty closely with Hero
Games - if it doesn't work the way that YOU want it to, chances are, YOU
are wrong.
You also might want to consider a less insulting tone to your posts.
Just because you disagree with someone is no reason to talk to them like
they are an idiot. It's a pretty quick way to get people to just plain
ignore your posts.
Todd
-------------------------------------------------------
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at badtodd@dacmail.net :) thanks!
-------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:42:54 -0700
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re[2]: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> Guy Hoyle wrote:
>>And somebody else wrote:
>> Huh? The program is not based on Hero 4th Edition? Prithee tell, upon
>> what *is* it based? How many other discrepancies are there between the
>> two? I am underwhelmed.
>No, I was saying that it IS based on the 4th edition rules; it's
>not a bug in the program. What discrepancies have you (or anybody
>else on this list) found? Seems to be remarkably faithful to me,
>but I'd like to see what other problems people have found with it.
Well, there is always the problem with using any sort of Automaton
powers. For me, any character with these powers will look normal,
but whenever I try to save or print it, the powers disappear and
the character's experience value shoots up into the tens of
thousands. Anyone else notice this bug?
Richard
(Note: other than this, I love Heromaker...I've spent more time
designing characters on my computer than actually playing the
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id <m0xJYff-000FlQE@mail.airmail.net&> Fri, 10 Oct 97 01:35:35 -0500 (CDT)
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From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 01:47:43 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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Subject: Re: Re[2]: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 97 15:06:25 -0400
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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>> What discrepancies have you (or anybody
>>else on this list) found? Seems to be remarkably faithful to me,
>>but I'd like to see what other problems people have found with it.
>
>Well, there is always the problem with using any sort of Automaton
>powers. For me, any character with these powers will look normal,
>but whenever I try to save or print it, the powers disappear and
>the character's experience value shoots up into the tens of
>thousands. Anyone else notice this bug?
The original question meant rules discrepancies, not programming bugs.
The popularity of Windows surged in 1995, when |
Microsoft began shipping Windows 95, which | David A. Fair
included many innovations that the Macintosh | SDS International
had introduced 10 years earlier. | dfair@sdslink.com
- Reuters, Friday, July 18, 1997 |
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:40:39 -0700
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
CC: hero-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Customizing it.
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Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> >>> Well, for one thing, a character in my campaign can now
> speak...Pilipino..., with
> >>> just a couple of clicks instead of a couple of clicks and a few keystrokes.
> >>Actually as a Filipino, the language is Tagalog, and it is already
> >included in my version of heromaker.
> > Hm. I'd understood that there was a Pilipino, which is to Tagalog what
> >Spanglish is to Spanish (a cross-breeding with English).
> >
> I'm not sure about that, but as a pale white guy (who has to
> Filipino players), I do know that Tagalog is only one dialect used in the
> Philippines. Nimbus (one of my guys) said his 'rents speak a different
> dialect but had to learn Tagalog because it became the national language by
> default.
> I believe this is correct, but I can't double-check, as Nimbus and
> Force are out of town this weekend.
It's correct. While there are many local languages in the Philippines, Tagalog
is
the 'official' language, as is English. Any educated person speaks both.
Incidentally, Tagalog woulg vie about 4 points similarity with Spanish, and vice
versa.
There are as similar to each other as Spanish and Portugese are. Or say
American English
and Jamacian English.
And I've never heard of a Pilipino. It may be some American thing... like
'Jive/Ebonics', or
somesuch. Or it may be like what the Korean's call Kong'lish. Which is basically a
word for
how the Korean's and American's in Korea who don't know Korean speak to each other.
Using
various out of date english phrases, mixed in with a simple Korean word or two...
Not a full language
by any stretch, it's ussually only able to get simple ideas across. And anyone who
speaks either language
can figure out the full thing in a good hour. At the core of it's development seems
to be an effort by drunk GI's to get into the skirts of Korean girls.
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat #gurps and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
Gurps is for discussion of the GURPS RolePlaying Game
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:49:52 -0700
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
Subject: Re: Pushing
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> >
> > Something that we ended up with as a house rule is pushing on Movement
> > powers. It's allowed, but it was decided that you can't use Pushing
> > to more than double the amount of movement you have.
> > We did this after a brick, with 2" of Swimming, started Pushing for
> > another 10 Active points worth and was zooming around at 12" like a
> > torpedo. He had tons of END to spare, so he could keep it up for
> > the whole fight.
>
> Any reason why a super-strong character SHOULDN'T be able to propel
> himself through the water like a torpedo? After all, he can leap
> around like a kangaroo on steroids.
>
Especially since it happens all the time in comics and cartoons.In fact,
allowing one to push one's speed in water is a very old super-schtick.
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat #gurps and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
Gurps is for discussion of the GURPS RolePlaying Game
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 17:26:16 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, Robert A. West wrote:
> > This only happens if the characteristics in question are bought as
> > powers,
>
> Where in the BBB does it say, or even imply, that one can end-run around
> normal characteristic maxima by buying the characteristics as powers?
It doesn't. It does say in the description of NCM that Powers which
_grant_ characteristics (specifically, Growth and Density Increase), and
some people have interpreted this to include characteristics bought _as_
Powers. It's not a totally unreasonable reading, but the problem is if you
do this the uber-rule concerning "Disadvantages which don't disadvantage
the character" kicks in and NCM becomes a 0-point disad.
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 17:41:06 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: No-Win Scenarios [Re: GMing Question #1]
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On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote:
> >(5) To everyone who pooh-poohed the implications of "last of their race",
> >you fail roleplaying 101 again. Why do you think that we have an
> >Endangered Species Act? Most species have become irrelevant to human
> >survival by the time they are on the list.
>
> Biodiversity _should_ be maintained. There are several reasons, but setting
> aside any religious/moral ones for the moment, until we've fully cracked the
> genetic code and how life works, we don't want to lose any potential DNA
> that might be useful. Another reason is just that we 'like' having wildlife
> around. From a purely evolutionary standpoint, though, it's survival of the
> fittest, and anything that doesn't serve humanity's purposes will fall by
> the wayside.
Granted, but the "purely evolutionary" standpoint doesn't seem all that
relevant to a moral dilemma.
> Fortunately, we're barely intelligent enough to realize that we don't know
> exactly how the biosphere works, so for now we don't want to mess with it by
> killing off too many species (if we can help it). Thus the 'Endangered
> Species Act' is just a form of preventative self-preservation.
It's hardly _just_ that, although that's one argument in favour of it.
> >I know people who have stated openly that they oppose animal testing of
> >medications even though they admit that it saves human lives. Do you mean
> >that you think there would not be a "Save the Orions" movement?
>
> Not at a 1250:1 death/life ratio.
Oh, I'm pretty sure there would be.
> In fact, I can see almost _any_ alien race being 'turned away' from Earth
> for the simple reason of not wanting to introduce tons of new, dangerous
> microbes to the planet's biosphere.
Realistically, I don't think it's all that plausible that humans would be
affected by alien microbes, unless there's some common ancestry in there.
OTOH, in the superhero genre aliens usually have a lot in common with
humanity, even to the point of being interfertile.
> > - Would the aliens accept racial imprisonment?
> > - What of the great benefits to us from their advanced science?
> > Might it not save more lives than it cost?
>
> That's a game we can't really play. Why not? It gets out of hand far, far
> too easily. I could use the same argument to justify all sorts of vile
> experimentation on other humans, for example.
It's not clear that said arguments wouldn't be valid.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:48:58 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima
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At 04:05 PM 10/10/97 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
>Vox Ludator! wrote:
>> Note that this is another wonderful example of the HERO System's intense
>> dedication towards vague writing, which Steve Peterson has previously
>> assured me (during Ye Dreade Linked Debate) was actually a feature not a
>> bug. The rules are SUPPOSED to be easily debatable (Vox said, tongue
firmly
>> in cheek).
>
>Actually, I don't think that this passage is particularly vague, at least
>not compared to the sort of things that I must interpret every day of my
>professional life, and where there is much more at stake. That does not
>mean that either of us would not have written it better. ;-)
You have to interpret stuff even more vague than the HSR, and "much
more" is at stake there? I suppose how worried I should be depends on what
you do for a living! (Gee, I hope you don't work at NORAD....) ;-]
Actually there's quite a bit in the Champions rulebook that others could
have written better. The same could probably be said of a lot of the stuff
on my Original Hero Stuff Page, and the two editors who handled my
contribution to Flying Buffalo's CityBook series certainly thought some
changes needed to be made.
But it is what it is. Mr. Peterson is, or so I understand, not a writer
by primary occupation or avocation. How much of a hand Rob Bell (editor of
the Fourth Edition) had in the wording of various things has never been
revealed (probably to protect the innocent), and I don't know his "mode of
thinking" either. Thankfully, Robert, your tone was not of incrimination
or criticism; that kind of thing is not called for here. Let's just leave
the poor idiots alone and try to figure out what the Dickens they thought
they were talking about! ;-]
>In addition, although authors may not mean what they say, they generally
>mean something. If the point doubling for characteristics could be so
>easily evaded, Normal Characteristic Maxima would be a nullity and would
>violate the Fundamental Law of Disadvantages. If given any out, I will
>not believe that the authors made that mistake.
Just so you understand, I do not disagree with any of this in any way,
shape, or form; we are in total agreement thus far.
>I agree that there is a slight unclarity about how to handle Adjustment
>Powers.
Here I disagree only with the word "slight." If it were only a "slight"
unclarity, then I don't think we'd be debating this for something like the
third time in the past five years. (Though much more civilly this time
than the other two times, IIRC... at least, so far.)
>On balance, I would hold that Adjustment Powers are subject to
>the doubling rule, largely because the asymmetry strikes me as
>implausible. I have no doubt whatsoever that, under the rule written,
>Characteristics purchased as powers are subject to doubling. Lord only
>knows what was *intended*.
On that last comment, I wouldn't be so sure. Steve Peterson, who wrote
the actual text for Linked as it's currently found in the BBB (I do know
that much for a fact), has actually come out and said that he doesn't know
whether a Linked Power must be used when the Power to which it is Linked is
used. Certainly it's the most confusing passage in the entire book, and
has sparked more acrimonious debate in the Halls of Hero than any other
issue of game mechanics -- and the designer himself doesn't know the
answer. Go fig.
>I never thought of PD and ED from Armor or Force Field as
>"Characteristics"; otherwise, why does Armor even exist? You can simply
>buy PD and/or ED and Damage Resistance: all point totals are identical,
>and all advantages and limitations are handled identically.
I never have thought of it this way either; however, several published
characters to exactly this. I think it's a matter of taste.
>> 3) CHAR bought with an Advantage or Limitation, thereby becoming
>> a "Standard Power", do not count against the Maxima for the
>> corresponding CHAR.
>
>Which makes NCM a "disadvantage that is not a disadvantage."
>
>> I agree, the last seems strange -- buy your STR 0 END, and it can be as
high
>> as you want it? But the write-up for Defender definitely follows this
>> course, paying only standard costs for his OIF Characteristics.
>
>I agree that applying the rule as I interpret it introduces the
>question of whether powered armor might give one character +15 STR and
>another +30 STR. I could see granting waivers on the doubled cost if the
>special effect made it seem silly and the use was not abusive. I also
>think I recall that Defender antedates Normal Characteristic Maxima.
>Could this be an error in conversion to 4th edition?
And here's where I fall squarely on the other side of the camp from you,
though Vox' statement is unclear. If one has NCM, then a character may buy
part of his Characteristics as Powers, provided (a) he sacrifices any
Figured Characteristics, and more importantly (b) the GM approves. In my
own campaign, you generally have to purchase the increased Characteristics
through a Focus or Battlesuit, or get special permission.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 10 Oct 97 21:49:00 GMT
Subject: Re: Desolidification and
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
h > From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
h > Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
h > To: champ-l@omg.org
h >
h > All of this discussion is interesting, but it still doesn't solve the
h > original problem. Consider two villains. Both have an RKA Radius Area
h > Effect. One is defined as a "heat field", the other "the ground turns
h > into
h > lava".
h >
h > By the arguments I have been hearing, the guy with "ground is lava"
h > gets
h > Affects Desolidified for free. Either that, or you have to explain
h > exactly
h > why regular lava does affect de solidified, but the villains lava
h > doesn't.
Not at all. Both a 'heat field' and a lava pool would produce secondary
effects that would heat the general environment. In both cases, a character
with Desolid would take no damage from the RKA, but would feel the heat.
If he stayed within the area for a prolonged time, he'd suffer the effects
exposure to extreme heat (heat exhaustion, for instance), unless
he had life support. The same would be true of a character with a very
high ED, he'd bounce the attack, but if he swam in the lava pool for a
while, he'd have problems.
The exact effects of hostile environments aren't really spelled out in
game terms and it's up to the GM exactly what happens. In general, for
game balance reasons, I wouldn't usually let such side effects have any
impact in something as immediate as combat.
h > If you buy enough of the proper defense, you gain effective immunity
h > to
h > environmental effects. A character with a 45 Energy Defense is immune
h > to
h > arctic winter, _except breathing_, because breathing bypasses the
h > defense.
h > I think that desolidification deserves a similar consideration- the
h > lava
h > can't burn you, but _don't breathe_.
h >
h > Filksinger
Think about this some more. While a high ED might give some protection
against heat, cold, and radiation effects (after all it defends against
attacks with those special effects), it doesn't also give you free Life
Support, if you think your 45 ED character shouldn't be bothered by
artic cold, go ahead and buy the LS, it's cheap.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 10 Oct 97 21:53:02 GMT
Subject: Re: Desolidification and
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com
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h > Furthermore, there is one thing we have been ignoring from the
h > beginning.
h > If ED doesn't protect against cold, then what is a coat? If I decide I
h > want
h > a character who is immune to cold up to a point, and resistant but not
h > immune for temperatures below that, then, by your ruling, there is no
h > way
h > to do it. Only Life Support can protect him, and Life Support is all
h > or
h > nothing.
........
h > Filksinger
Life Support is a minor power, and was kept cheap an mechanically simple.
However, there is nothing to prevent you from tacking on a 'limmited
power' limitation. For instance, I have Life Support f/ Extreme temperatures,
only heat, not cold -1, because I am an energy-absorbing life form. When
you put on a coat you have a heavily limited Life Support - it's such a
minor power, probably no one will expect you to buy it (if you did it would
be 1 Rpt, only because bought powers can't round down to zero) :).
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:55:15 -0500
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> Where in the BBB does it say, or even imply, that one can end-run
> around
> normal characteristic maxima by buying the characteristics as powers?
>
You can buy characteristics as powers (at the GM's approval)
if you have a valid reason for why SuperDuperMan's STR has that
activation cost / focii dependence / doesn't work in XXX / etc.
Characteristics bought this way are powers -- not part of the characters
characteristics
and are therfore excluded from the characteristic maxima.
As an example, MetalMan has a the disad "normal human characteristic
maxima"
and a normal human strength of 8 (he's a little wimpy).
He also has a suit of armor (OIF) that grants him a STR of 50 among
other things.
Since this strength has been purchased as a power,
not a characteristic, it doesn't incur the penalty.
However, a good GM will probably make him wish he had a higher base STR.
Maybe after being beat up a few times when he doesn't have his armor on
will convince the PC to start training with weights
Richard Thomas Ryker
Programmer Analyst
ComputerLand Technology Group, Inc.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:57:39 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Nonstandard Deviations
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
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At 05:11 PM 10/10/97 -0800, Mike Lehmann wrote:
>I also have a related question.
>
>Under Density Increase and Growth, those powers provide STR, as well as
>either PD/ED (non-resistant) or BODY and STUN, respectively.
>
>I've always worked under the assumption that the STR granted by these
>powers cannot affect figured characteristics, because the power already
>adds to other figured stats (PD or STUN).
>
>However, I noticed such a discrepancy in the "Animals" section (pg
>196-197, BBB), where (for example) the Horse w/ 15 pts of Growth and 10
>base STR has 5 PD for free (presumably, from it's now 25 points of STR.
>This would seem to imply that such STR *does* apply to figured stats.
>
>I notice that the NPCs were not figured this way, and was wondering: has
>HERO games ever established their ruling for this? I presume the animals
>section is wrong, but I was wondering if anyone else was bugged by this?
I was, and I'm always bothered when a published character (or other
"entity") deviates appreciably from the standard rules. An occasional
variance for an unusual situation is one thing, but this (along with
providing a "free point" for characters' primary Professional Skills in
Champions of the North by applying the Everyman Skill point toward it) only
confuses matters.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:58:45 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 03:21 PM 10/10/97 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
>Todd Hanson wrote:
>> Where in the BBB? Lets see.. multiple (official) published characters
>> (including Defender) who have normal char. max. but have stats bought
>> through a suit and don't pay double?
>
>I am consistantly annoyed at the number of published Hero characters that
>appear not to follow their own rules. I wonder, in Defender's case, if
>the character was just copied from old Champions, which did not include
>Normal Characteristic Maxima.
I seriously doubt this, since (AFAIK) Defender was introduced in the
Fourth Edition of Champions.
>This has given me a jaundiced attitude towards reverse-engineering
>specifications from a program. When a couple of posters stated that they
>were using the program to interpret the rulebook, I recalled that the
>most experienced Hero gamers that I know have stated that there are minor
>bugs in the program, and related the only one I could recall offhand.
>This was intended as a caveat against relying too heavily on reverse
>engineering, not as a slam on the product.
From what I've found, the bugs are all purely of the programming type; I
have yet to come across anything that looks like an outright
misinterpretation of the rules. (I'm relatively sure, just from
implications that have been made, that Steve, Bruce, et al had a hand in
its development, at least from an alpha testing position.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 17:06:54 -0500
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> -=> Quoting Vox Ludator! to Mike Lehmann <=-
>
> VL> As a mere example, this has the following ramifications:
> VL> 1) CHAR supplied by Absorption, Aid, or Transfer are not
> VL> affected by CHAR Maxima -- don't halve their effect past 20.
> VL> 2) PD & ED from Armor don't count against the Maxima of 8
> VL> each. 3) CHAR bought with an Advantage or Limitation, thereby
> VL> becoming a "Standard Power", do not count against the Maxima
> VL> for the corresponding CHAR.
>
> I think #2 (which should also include Force Field) is valid, and in
> certain cases #1 might be. After all, they are actual powers. However,
>
> stats bought through foci (such as an armor suit), IMO, are still
> stats
> and should be limited by NCM.
>
HERO games has published answers to questions such as these.
(Of course, I am remembering from ten years ago. I've been away
awhile.)
In many of their responses, they have said that stats bought as powers
do not fall under NCM. The NCM refers to the base stats of the person
-- not his powers/focii/magic/etc.
> Under Density Increase and Growth, those powers provide STR, as well
> as
> either PD/ED (non-resistant) or BODY and STUN, respectively.
>
> I've always worked under the assumption that the STR granted by these
> powers cannot affect figured characteristics, because the power
> already
> adds to other figured stats (PD or STUN).
>
HERO changed the rules so that you CAN have Density and Growth affect
your
figured stats for an advantage cost.
> However, I noticed such a discrepancy in the "Animals" section (pg
> 196-197, BBB), where (for example) the Horse w/ 15 pts of Growth and
> 10
> base STR has 5 PD for free (presumably, from it's now 25 points of
> STR.
> This would seem to imply that such STR *does* apply to figured stats.
>
> I notice that the NPCs were not figured this way, and was wondering:
> has
> HERO games ever established their ruling for this? I presume the
> animals
> section is wrong, but I was wondering if anyone else was bugged by
> this?
>
> If the animal section is wrong, either they didn't put in the
> advantage specifically
> (omission) or they just copied them from rules prior to the figured
> stat ruling.
>
-RICK
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 10 Oct 97 22:14:04 GMT
Subject: Re: Desolidification and
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com
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h >
h > > Toxins, extreme temperatures, submersion, etc., can all be lethal
h > without
h > > damaging the victim the way an Energy Blast or RKA causes damage.
h >
h > Prove it. One effect in the LS family can kill without standard
h > damage:
h > suffocation -- this is because the book says so (on p. 167), rendering
h > asphyxiation damage as an explicit process to stand alongside "normal
h > damage" and "killing damage". There is no reason not to presume that
h > such
h > "unfriendly or deadly environments" aren't unfriendly and/or deadly
h > according to standard HERO provisions (i.e. doing normal, killing, or
h > suffocating damage).
Hero is still a game system. It's not a scientific model that describes
reality. Presumably, there's no description of exactly how most environmental
effects work, because that level of detail wasn't deemed nescisary. Thus
it's up to the GM to decide wether exposure to 'extreme' heat should be
a Killing Attack, an NND, a Susceptibility, or a suffocation-like special
case.
Personally, I take very, very hot effects which are likely to have
limited exposure (like the blast furnace) as KAs, while less intense
heat (like the Sahara desert) works like a Susceptibility that anyone
who didn't buy the appropriate Life Support is just stuck with.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 08:19:05 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:36 AM 10/9/97 -0700, you wrote:
>On Wednesday, October 08, 1997 8:19 PM, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
>wrote:
>>i play no win situations. . . all the time! and my glorious pc's
>>often win anyway- can everyone say 'superhero'?
>
>"I play no win scenarios, but I let the players win." Can anyone say,
>"Unclear on concept"?
>
can anyone say 'improvised medium?'
>It isn't a "no win" scenario if winning is possible. By definition.
>
no, it's a no-win situation if nobody happens to win this
time, dependant on the characters involved. hence certain
peace talks are a no-win situation, now that a certain
prime minister in the middle east has unfortunately died
and been replaced?
this is especially true in roleplaying, which is IMPROVISED!
>>the difference is
>>my original intent, and that is to let the pc's contribute, instead
>>of just standing around.
>
>How is that a difference? What makes you think that I don't do these
>things? Please stop telling me what I do or do not do, just so you can
>claim you do something different and better.
>
they can't contribute- they can just talk. if they *can't* win,
then they can't effect the plot in a particular way- any
infringment on freedom is a total infringment, and if you
want to talk about democratic social construction of
freedom remember the gm is ONE person who already has a great deal of power.
>>i write 'pc's might come up with
>>a solution' where you write 'pcs ball their eyes out and shake
>>fists at heaven'
>
>Ooh, more mind reading. How impressive.
>
well, what do you expect them to do? act cynical about railroading and get told they aren't heros?
>>
>>the difference is you seem to set it out.
>
>If and _only_ if the players indicate that that is what they want.
>
uh-huh? by private or public ballot? it doesn't seem very spontanious. .
>>the gm determines in
>>advance wether there is a solution or not, irrespective of the
>>pc's actions.
>
>When the players indicate that this is the sort of game they want,
>yes. Only then.
>
i could object to this assertion, but i'd basically have to
accuse you of being an asshole and a bad gm, which is hardly fair
and clearly not true. *grudgingly* i suppose i see your point. ..
>>i've had pc's fail miserably in the most
>>simple of scenarios because they couldn't *quite* come up with
>>an option. . .
>
>Fine. However, that is not a "no-win" scenario, that's failure. I like
>roleplaying failure, sometimes.
>
failure has much more weight than manufactured helplesness.. ..
didn't nhilism spring from feelings of total powerlessness?
>>>So long as these are well made and only occasional, I _want_ limits,
>>>even severe ones.
>>>
>>
>>
>>limited by scenario or circumstance?
>
>Uh, in a role-playing game, what circumstance could limit me, save the
>scenario? My own personal lacks and failures? Sorry, I don't need a
>role-playing game to experience _that_.
>
the gm contributes the scenarios, the pc contribute thieir
characters reaction. THEN there's the gm's improvisation of
the npc's, which should not be a slave to
the scenario. .
>Filksinger
>
>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:21:57 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Todd Hanson wrote:
>
> Robert A. West wrote:
> >Guy Hoyle wrote:
>
> >> This only happens if the characteristics in question are bought as
> >> powers,
>
> >Where in the BBB does it say, or even imply, that one can end-run
> around
> >normal characteristic maxima by buying the characteristics as powers?
>
> Where in the BBB? Lets see.. multiple (official) published characters
> (including Defender) who have normal char. max. but have stats bought
> through a suit and don't pay double?
Sigh!
I am consistantly annoyed at the number of published Hero characters that
appear not to follow their own rules. I wonder, in Defender's case, if
the character was just copied from old Champions, which did not include
Normal Characteristic Maxima.
>
> Maybe you should actually TRY a product before you slam how it works.
> . . . if it doesn't work the way that YOU want it to, chances are, YOU
> are wrong.
>
My intention was not to slam the product, and now that I know how to get
it, I intend to purchase it.
I *did* misunderstand Guy to be saying that Heromaker was based on some
little-publicized version of the rules that differed in detail from the
BBB. Given that you knew what he really meant, my outburst of
astonishment and annoyance probably looked very odd.
Years of experience with computer systems of all kinds have shown me
that, as a rule, when I find that a program disagrees with a written
specification, it is a misunderstanding on the part of the programmer. I
have spent much of my professional life picking up the millions of
dollars of damage done by such errors, while other people are
wasting their time insisting that the program cannot be wrong.
This has given me a jaundiced attitude towards reverse-engineering
specifications from a program. When a couple of posters stated that they
were using the program to interpret the rulebook, I recalled that the
most experienced Hero gamers that I know have stated that there are minor
bugs in the program, and related the only one I could recall offhand.
This was intended as a caveat against relying too heavily on reverse
engineering, not as a slam on the product.
> You also might want to consider a less insulting tone to your posts.
> Just because you disagree with someone is no reason to talk to them like
> they are an idiot. It's a pretty quick way to get people to just plain
> ignore your posts.
I have reviewed several of my posts, and am perplexed as to why you think
that I am treating anyone as an idiot. If anyone has read me that way, I
am sorry, but I think that my remarks were appropriate to a professional
level discussion about an area of shared expertise and interest.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 08:23:30 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:32 PM 10/8/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>On Wednesday, October 08, 1997 8:15 PM jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au said:
>
>>why not give the pc's a crack at evacuating one of the worlds?
>>or how about freezing the aliens in time? i'd say a good gm has
>>a responsibility to allow these options. . otherwise, what are
>>the pc's there for? to feel bad? woo-hooo...
>
>
>Why not give the PCs a crack at saving them? Because, if the players
>want to try to role play no win scenarios, then allowing them to win
>ruins it.
>
yeah, yeah, i know :->~
>Of course, you shouldn't force them to lose. If they clearly have
>discovered a way of saving them, then they will just have to wait for
>the scenario they wanted.
>
EXACTLY!!! then it isn't no-win is it? and is it 'aninomomytomy'
or whatever? no! nothing HAS to be, it's just has the POTENTIAL
to be- and by allowing them to sink or swim 'on their own', you
ENHANCE the effect of failures and situations the pc's see as
'no win'
>Filksinger
>
>
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 97 22:24:21
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:43:23 -0700, Mann, Wade wrote:
>I am currently developing some software that might be released through
>Hero Games. I am trying to figure out the platforms that I should
>support.
>
>How many of you are using win 3.x, win95/nt, and/or Mac?
Windows? Mac? OS/2 forever.
-=>John D.
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 17:26:13 -0500
From: Tim Haas <wabbit@thewarren.mil.wi.us>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Cc: champ-l@omg.org, hero-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:24 PM 10/9/97 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
>I do not use Heromaker, largely because it ceased to be available about
>the time that I became serious about GMing Hero. I *do* have my own
>Excel-based sheet to do the calculations, and am working on versions in
>Access and Powerbuilder in my copious spare time, largely as a way of
>learning more about those products.
>
Heromaker and all of it's data disks (ie: Eniemies, Dark Champions, etc)
were all available at GENCON when I was there (the latest one), If you
check out the Hero Games Homepage it will say (somewhere) where to order
them from.
>The most experienced two members of the SGU use HeroMaker, but they both
>warn that it contains some minor bugs and will allow illegal things. As
>a simple example, it does not enforce the doubling rule for
>characteristics over normal maxima if that disadvantage is taken.
Oh really? My copy does!
You can get around this by buying the characteristic as a Power, which is
allowed so that you can do things like "Normal Human wearing power armor
that boosts his STR to 60"
If he tries to raise his own "Natural" Strength above 20, he pays double;
but the STR gained from the armor is at normal costs.
>Just a
>caveat not to rely overmuch on the program for rules interpretations.
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 08:33:11 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:28 AM 10/9/97 -0700, you wrote:
>On Wednesday, October 08, 1997 8:18 PM jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au said:
>>i wasn't attacking jack. . . you haven't got the gist- i allow
>*unlimited pc possibilities* that is if the pc's think up a plausable
>option, they can try it-
>
>If it is a workable answer, I always allow the PCs to try. Generally,
>they succeed.
>
but i allow them to suceed even if i don't plan for them to. . ..
>>you just give them the old 'either/or' option, both options planned
>by you. .
>
>
>No, as a matter of fact, I don't. I, personally, don't like 'no-win'
>scenarios, as a GM, and almost never run them. When I do, it is
>because the players say that this is what they want.
>
but when they do. . look, it is becoming less and less
viable that this whole issue revolves around something
the pc's specifically asked for. What is the place of this
sort of scenario in general?
><snip>
>>in a rpg? why not clone tissue? this isn't real life, it's an rpg:
>>endless possiblities are the appeal of the system. . .
>
>Endless possibilities are the appeal of the system to whom? Obviously
>you, but not everyone thinks that RPGs require that they have
>unlimited options to be enjoyable. Why am I the bad guy for wanting to
>occasionally play something different? Because I am the GM, even
>though I said that I wanted to be a _player_ in such scenarios?
>
different? no the same! endless possibilities means it's ALWAYS
different! once again you attempt the 'my restriction is freeer
that your lack therof' argument.
><snip>
>>>True. That, in fact, is the tragedy of antinomy- there _is no_
>>>solution.
>>>
>>
>>exactly. . booooring!
>
>For you. Not necessarily for all players, in all games.
>
yes, nesecarily there are unlimited possiblities, if only
at the extremes of the scenario. Otherwise,
your aren't roleplaying, just shooting off dialogue.
>>and the tregedy of the dictionary deffinition is that
>>there are *multiple* solution, but they cost. .
>
>
>Odd. That certainly isn't part of my dictionary's definition. Any of
>them.
>
really? didn't i spot something about 'two or more equally valid
but contradictory' ect, al. . . .. ?
>>so the gm just decided when this occurs?
>
>Not necessarily.
>
yes, in order for the plot to be restricted in outcome,
you better believe the gm's in on it! pc's can't
even do a mass suicide without 'big G's say-so. .
>> what if in that circumstance the
>>pc's come up with a solution? does the gm just say 'sorry, this isn't
>a 'fix-it'
>>scenario'?
>
>No, they get to fix it. Then, if they still want a no-win scenario, I
>would have to start over.
>
YES!!! so it ISN'T a no-win scenario! they can win!!!!!!!!
>>>I think we agree that this all started as a misunderstanding.
>>>
>>
>>once again, it's not a misunderstanding. . . in future, please just
>>assume i'm out to get you, ok? *j/k*
>
>If and when I decide this, you will probably never notice. I will
>simply killfile you. So far, I haven't had to do this to anyone, but I
>may if you a) repeatedly assume things about me, just so you can dump
>on me; b) say enough offensive things aimed at me personally; or c)
>continue to repeat the same, boring opinions, over and over, rather
>than add something fresh and new. So far you pretty much hold the
>record for all of the above.
>
oh, please! not only do you take things WAYYYYYY too seriousley, but
you accuse ME of being boring? could it be because you ignore
whatever i say or keep insisting on misunderstanding?
>Filksinger
>
>
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 04:35:44 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: RE: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 05:06 PM 10/10/97 -0500, Rick Ryker wrote:
>> -=> Quoting Mike Lehmann <=-
>>
>> Under Density Increase and Growth, those powers provide STR, as well as
>> either PD/ED (non-resistant) or BODY and STUN, respectively.
>>
>> I've always worked under the assumption that the STR granted by these
>> powers cannot affect figured characteristics, because the power already
>> adds to other figured stats (PD or STUN).
>>
>HERO changed the rules so that you CAN have Density and Growth affect your
>figured stats for an advantage cost.
>
I've personally never heard of this before, so can't say boo. But I'd like
to know where you heard it (not doubting your honesty, just want to look it up).
>> However, I noticed such a discrepancy in the "Animals" section (pg
>> 196-197, BBB), where (for example) the Horse w/ 15 pts of Growth and 10
>> base STR has 5 PD for free (presumably, from it's now 25 points of STR.
>> This would seem to imply that such STR *does* apply to figured stats.
>> I notice that the NPCs were not figured this way, and was wondering: has
>> HERO games ever established their ruling for this? I presume the
>> animals section is wrong, but I was wondering if anyone else was bugged by
>> this?
>>
>> If the animal section is wrong, either they didn't put in the advantage
specifically
>> (omission) or they just copied them from rules prior to the figured
>> stat ruling.
>>
Urm. The REC and STUN of the Horse are wrong as well. I would probably
just chalk it up to a typo, as the Density Increase stats for the Bear are
correct. (They also gipped the Lion and Bear on their bonus PRE by being
real stingy with the Limitations...)
- Jerry
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: GMing Question #1
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 17:44:05 -0500
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<snip>
> >the point is moot- because no matter what the pc's are forced to
> >do the players are not going to feel bad about a situation they
> >have no real choice about.
>
> A doctor never feels bad because he had to amputate a leg to save a
> life? A police officer never feels bad because he had to shoot someone
> to stop a murder? People feeling bad about situations where they had
> "no real choice" happens all the time.
<snip>
Bad example.
The doctor and the policeman in your example both DID something,
maybe even the best they could, but they DID something to change
the situation.
Not doing something in these situations also would have had an effect;
The patient would have died. The murdered would have killed someone.
Regardless of the outcome, they made a difference.
Something changed because they were there.
A no-win situation, as some have said, implies nothing changes. Period.
You have no affect on the outcome. Well hey, that's life!
We could argue all day that most of us have no affect
on the things that happen around us; we'd be wrong, but we could argue.
A true no-win situation means that we can't change things to be better
THE WAY WE DEFINE BETTER.
But that doesn't mean things haven't changed.
Most players may not like situations without a clear cut outcome.
Well. Don't play that way or in those type games.
Some players like to play "No Win Situations". Fine. Let them.
But the mere fact of playing DOES change something.
A good GM (my interpretation) would make even a No Win Situation
have an affect on the campaign...eventually.
-RICK
Richard Thomas Ryker
Programmer Analyst
ComputerLand Technology Group, Inc.
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 08:45:08 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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At 12:50 AM 10/9/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>yes- but not becuase 'god' says so. and your 'i want to play it,
>>so others must as well' is not an acceptable option when making
>>stories.
>
>WHOSE 'I want to play it, so others must as well'? I said that I
>wanted to play it as a player, I have never indicated that I force it
>on my players on that basis. I could just as easily claim that you
>force your players to play only scenarios that you would like to play
>in, on as little evidence.
>
you make the assertion that you gm this sort of thing only
when the players ask for it? since you've already
decided to take this whole thing personally hows about i just
come right out and say that sounds pretty damn suspect to me?
>>A situation should be 'no-win' becuase that the way
>>it turns out, not becase that's the way the gm planns it. .
>
>Sorry, just because you say, "It should be this way," doesn't make it
>so. A no-win scenario, _by definition_, has no way to win. A GM who
>created a scenario where it was _impossible_ to win, and created it
>_accidentally_, without knowing that he was creating an unwinable
>scenario, is incompetent.
>
no, he's YOU- you said so yourself if the pc's find a valid enough answer. . ..
hence we see the reverse- a no-win situation wich can be won through
improvisation (not gm planning)is winnable, which is how it should be
done- that is, if you want to entertain people?
>>>>So if i provide my players with a no win situation, usually they
>will
>>>win
>>>>anyway, just to spite me...:)
>>>
>>>One of my favorite Paranoia games had exactly that happen to me. The
>>>one I mentioned about a week ago. It is fun when that happens, but
>>>sometimes I, as a player, want a one answer or even no answer
>>>scenario.
>>>
>>
>>or is that you, the gm?
>
>No, it is me, the player. Please stop trying to force me into the role
>of "bad GM", so you can dump on me.
>
if i wanted to dump on you i'd pay out your font
useing a HOTMAIL account.
PLEASE stop taking things personally.
>>a player can make these suggestions, but it
>>is unfair for a gm to do so. ..
>
>Now its unfair for a GM to make _suggestions_ in the game he referees?
>
it is unfair for a gm to ask after a sceanrio and then instate it,
claming that the players asked him to do so. The sceanrio is
ALWAYS the responsibility of the gm, who should NEVER assume a
'you asked for it' attutude with his players.
>>btw, most players won't care if the gm forces them into a tough
>choice-
>>like all railroading, it's not very entertaining, and players resent
>it
>>. . . . . so your not going to get tragedy on any real level, just
>>cardboard melodrama. . . .
>
>I refuse to design scenarios to match what you want, rather than what
>my players have asked for, based upon your keen knowledge of what they
>will or will not like. Please stop assuming that I choose to do this,
>without their input. Quite the opposite is true.
>
read the above again- i'm not talking about the choice of scenario,
but the context. If the players go into a situation doomed to failure,
that whole thing has much less effect than if they fail simply because
of chance or error, no matter HOW much they're asked to play that way
. ..
>>to get TRAGEDY, you establish a trend where the players know the will
>>suceed if they're smart enough. ... and when they fail. . . it's
>their
>>own fault. . . ....
>
>Tragedy and failure are not synonyms. If my players ask for a no win
>scenario, who are you to say they can't have one?
>
okay, yo said tragedy. i assumed you mean TRAGEDY, not CHLICHE
SELF-BLAME. YOU already asserted that they can win if they try
hard enough, and as I already mentioned, falling back on the
'what's right for us' rationale renders the whole discussion
meaningless in general debate once again.
Shall we halt this here?
>Filksinger
>
>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 08:52:13 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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At 01:00 AM 10/9/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>
>>the point is moot- because no matter what the pc's are forced to
>>do the players are not going to feel bad about a situation they
>>have no real choice about.
>
>A doctor never feels bad because he had to amputate a leg to save a
>life? A police officer never feels bad because he had to shoot someone
>to stop a murder? People feeling bad about situations where they had
>"no real choice" happens all the time.
>
not in a game!! in REAL LIFE yes, but in a game the emoitional
power just isn't there. . . you have to WORK to make people feel
for things, hell- most people are flat out giving a sh*t about the
homeless irl, littleown homeless aliens in a super rpg. . .
>>.railroading does not lead to good
>>role-playing. . . these actions are only going to have weight
>>if the players make their own decision. . .
>
>
>Generally true. However, I refuse to limit the game by forbidding such
>scenarios, if that is what the players want, or if it is truly
>appropriate to the scenario, campaign, and gaming group.
>
yeah, yeah, i know. . . .
>Generally, there are all kinds of things that GMs shouldn't put in a
>scenario. Deus ex machina is one. Railroading is another. No win
>scenarios can be a third. NPCs who do the real work, while the players
>get their a**es whupped.
>
>However, any of these can, on occasion, be just what is required to
>make a game work. Real skill as a GM is when you can introduce any of
>these elements, _as needed only_ , and afterwards the players are
>happy with the game _and_ the game was better because of what you did
>that you "shouldn't" do.
>
the difference is context. In both cases, the GAME REALITY
can be identical, but the lpayers attitudes are different.
I would sugesst that players who ask for something in advance
and play through basically a pre-set scenario in SOME ways
mush get a kick out of performance and roleplaying their
characters clinically, but i don't see them
becoming immersed in the emotions of the plot. .
their pc's might, but how can they? I KNOW you groups is yours, ect,
i saying this in yet another attempt to generalise the issue. .
>Filksinger
>
>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 09:00:40 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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At 11:29 PM 10/8/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>>Then I misunderstood you. I was never talking about "one way only"
>>>scenarios, though they could have their place. I was talking about
>two
>>>way scenarios, no way out, and both ways are bad.
>>>
you just said that WASN'T a proper dictionary deffinition of anyflomopoly (sp)
, is it or isn't it?
>
>If the players want to play a true "limited option" game, then it is
>the role of the GM to give them what they want. If they break the
>scenario, then its his fault.
>
the gm is GOD! he can stall any option just by saying
'that doesn't work', surely you can't be suggesting that the
pc's can effect this? there are not 'bargaining chips' in an rpg. . .
>>many gm's will resent their inititive. . . it's still one-way, or
>>just as bad. .
>
>Many GM's will X is not a good argument against doing something.
i'm not arguing against the point here, i'm clarifying my own position. .. .
>I
>could argue against letting the players have free will, and justify it
>with "Many players will X", but that doesn't make it right. Just
>because some GMs are bad is not a reason to throw out scenarios,
>regardless of what the players want, that can be ruined by bad GMing.
>
>Are you accusing me of being such a GM? That's a different matter, and
>personal.
>
no, i'm suggesting that the rationale for interrogating
this issue is valid from many perspectives, one of them
the point above. ..
>Filksinger
>
>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:05:11 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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Vox Ludator! wrote:
>
> At 02:05 AM 10/10/97 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
> >Where in the BBB does it say, or even imply, that one can end-run around
> >normal characteristic maxima by buying the characteristics as powers?
>
> p. 122, =Normal Characteristic Maxima=
> "Powers that raise Characteristics (Growth, Density Increase)
> affect Characteristics normally, and are not counted against
> the Characteristic Maxima".
>
> Note that this is another wonderful example of the HERO System's intense
> dedication towards vague writing, which Steve Peterson has previously
> assured me (during Ye Dreade Linked Debate) was actually a feature not a
> bug. The rules are SUPPOSED to be easily debatable (Vox said, tongue firmly
> in cheek).
Actually, I don't think that this passage is particularly vague, at least
not compared to the sort of things that I must interpret every day of my
professional life, and where there is much more at stake. That does not
mean that either of us would not have written it better. ;-)
On its face, it refers exactly to those powers that raise characteristics
and that are not characteristics themselves. A good writer will no more
call a characteristic a "power that raises characteristics" than call an
energy blast a "power that enhances energy blasts." If we read on
November 5 that, "Jane Doe raised the number of votes for Joe Smith," we
may think of a get out the vote campaign, or of election fraud, but we
will probably not think that Jane merely and properly cast her own vote.
In addition, although authors may not mean what they say, they generally
mean something. If the point doubling for characteristics could be so
easily evaded, Normal Characteristic Maxima would be a nullity and would
violate the Fundamental Law of Disadvantages. If given any out, I will
not believe that the authors made that mistake.
I agree that there is a slight unclarity about how to handle Adjustment
Powers.
On the side to include them under the rule:
- Adjustment Powers *are* powers that raise characteristics.
- They do not affect figured stats, just like Growth and D.I.
- Heromaker implements it that way.
On the side to exclude them under the rule:
- Adjustment powers that *lower* characteristics are not
included under the original rule. This produces some
very odd asymmetries, particularly with Transfer.
- If a list of examples is intended, it generally so indicates.
Unqualified lists that can plausibly be exhaustive are
generally meant to be exhaustive.
- Since Hero did not include Density Increase in the Size Powers
(where IMHO it logically belongs), they have no easy way
to indicate Growth and Density Increase as a group. The
actual phrasing may be as good as can be expected.
- When in doubt, don't nullify a disadvantage.
On balance, I would hold that Adjustment Powers are subject to
the doubling rule, largely because the asymmetry strikes me as
implausible. I have no doubt whatsoever that, under the rule written,
Characteristics purchased as powers are subject to doubling. Lord only
knows what was *intended*.
>
> You can either take the parenthetical phrase -- "(Growth, Density Increase)"
> -- as an example or an itemization. In the latter case, it just means
> "characteristics supplied by Growth and Density Increase don't count against
> Characteristic Maxima" (and should have been written that way, grumble,
> grumble).
If Density Increase were classed as a Size Power (and it seems intuitive
to me that it should) then they could simply have said "Size Powers" and
been done with it. I have found, as a matter of experience, that people
often circumlocute in just this way when they mean to be specific and
exclusive and have no convenient name for the class they mean to include.
>
> As a mere example, this has the following ramifications:
> 1) CHAR supplied by Absorption, Aid, or Transfer are not affected
> by CHAR Maxima -- don't halve their effect past 20.
But, by the rule specified, Drain and the drain half of Transfer do!
> 2) PD & ED from Armor don't count against the Maxima of 8 each.
I never thought of PD and ED from Armor or Force Field as
"Characteristics"; otherwise, why does Armor even exist? You can simply
buy PD and/or ED and Damage Resistance: all point totals are identical,
and all advantages and limitations are handled identically.
> 3) CHAR bought with an Advantage or Limitation, thereby becoming
> a "Standard Power", do not count against the Maxima for the
> corresponding CHAR.
Which makes NCM a "disadvantage that is not a disadvantage."
>
> I agree, the last seems strange -- buy your STR 0 END, and it can be as high
> as you want it? But the write-up for Defender definitely follows this
> course, paying only standard costs for his OIF Characteristics.
I agree that applying the rule as I interpret it introduces the
question of whether powered armor might give one character +15 STR and
another +30 STR. I could see granting waivers on the doubled cost if the
special effect made it seem silly and the use was not abusive. I also
think I recall that Defender antedates Normal Characteristic Maxima.
Could this be an error in conversion to 4th edition?
> >
> >Huh? The program is not based on Hero 4th Edition? . . .
>
> It is based on the 4th Edition. That's what he was saying: this isn't a
> well-publicized feature of 4th Edition HERO System.
OIC. While I still disagree that the rules say what you think they say,
I now understand that Guy meant that Heromaker implements some 4th
edition rules that are not widely understood.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 09:05:28 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: question #1. ..
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At 11:25 PM 10/8/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>but it *isn't* the real world- just the gm's opinion, which is often
>quite silly. . .
>>i.e. 'super martial arts are real, but backpack nukes aren't'
>>
>Of course it isn't the real world- it's a game. However, I fail to see
>why an attempt at creating a "real world"-imitating, high realism
>game, should be criticized in this manner.
>
>Filksinger
>
>
becasue it ISN'T REAL!! it's just the gm's assumptions, and the more
arrogant gm's are in general about this sort of plot enforcment,
them more likely restrictive games will be. .. . .
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: GMing Question #1
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:09:21 -0500
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> On Wednesday, October 08, 1997 4:05 PM, Rick Ryker said:
> >
> >Good points. This is pretty much a no brainer.
> >To illustrate, allow me to translate this situation
> >into something a little closer to home for most of us.
> >(Since very few of us will ever have to make this type of decision).
>
> I have said before that I agree with the position you are defending.
> However, I find your claim of moral superiority so great it is a "no
> brainer" somewhat offensive. Particularly when you decide to
> illustrate by deliberately throwing out most of the arguments against
> your position, while enhancing the arguments in favor of your
> position.
>
> <snip >
> >The choice here is between someone else and your own.
> >Most of us would unhesitatingly choose to save our own first.
>
> Perhaps. If it is a choice between two Earths, I assume that you would
> automatically choose yours, as a "no brainer". While I would probably
> do the same, I wouldn't claim moral superiority while doing it.
>
I didn't claim moral superiority. Or maybe I did. What is morality?
Is it moral for a carnivore to kill to survive? Is it immoral?
Neither.
It's amoral. Neither right or wrong.
> Lets try an example "closer to home", that doesn't distort the
> situation nearly as much.
>
> You have discovered that there are 20 remaining passenger pigeons.
> They are dying fast, but you can save them. To do so, however, will
> expose dogs around the world to a disease that is sometimes deadly,
> often enough to kill thousands of dogs over the next ten years.
>
> I take it that because dogs are our pets, we should choose in favor of
> saving them over the passenger pigeon.
>
True. But mostly because I could care less about passenger pigeons.
Even if they are going extinct. Pick something I care about.
The only reason any species cares about protecting another
is because the loss of the other may, MAY negatively impact their own.
(As the loss of the carrier pigeon would impact ours.)
> I have noticed an assumption in most of these posts, which I did not
> make in my original suggestion, IIRC. Lets challenge that assumption.
>
> The entire human race, save for 800 members (including your family and
> friends) is wiped out. Your ship is falling apart, and you will all be
> dead within days.
>
> You come across a planet that has a breathable atmosphere. The natives
> are too primitive to help you in any way, and, if you land, one member
> of their species out of every 5,000 will die. You and you alone have
> the power to get your ship to the planet in time.
>
> Do you save the human race?
>
Hell yes! As I said before, a "no-brainer".
The life instinct for survival of the self is only superceded
by the life instinct for survival of the species.
Going back to your case of the space aliens trying to land.
It would be criminal (against life's basic instincts) to side for the
aliens.
It would be criminal (against life's basic instincts) for the aliens to
side for you.
If their only hope for survival is to land on your planet. No brainer.
They are going to. You just try to stop them.
If the aliens trying to land is going to kill millions of people. No
brainer.
We're going to do everything in our power to stop them.
But we are getting WAY of track in these posts.
This thread was supposed to be about providing your players
with No-Win situations where no matter how many options there are
none of them will let the players "win".
Would somebody please define "win"?
-RICK
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: No-Win Scenarios [Re: GMing Question #1]
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:24:55 -0500
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> Just a nitpick, but ... it's doubtful that Cro-Magnon "exterminated"
> Neanderthal, at least in the same sense that he was to later
> exterminate the
> passenger pigeon and the dodo. It's possible the 'thals just went the
> way
> of the dinosaurs and the smilodon. Not everything nature tries works.
>
True. This is why nature rolls dice. She tries things a thousand
different ways.
The one that survives is the way she meant it to be. (Tongue in cheek.)
Nature's ways are neither moral or immoral, they're amoral.
And extermination is just one of her ways. Who said we have to like it?
-RICK
> Richard Thomas Ryker
> Programmer Analyst
> ComputerLand Technology Group, Inc.
>
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 10 Oct 97 23:30:00 GMT
Subject: I'm baaack!
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com
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Path: october!opal
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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h > From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
h > Subject: I'm baaack!
h > To: champ-l@omg.org
h >
h > Greetings.
h >
h > I've been away from the Champions scene for awhile.
h > That is, I haven't actively played since before I went to Tokyo in
h > '87.
h > Therefore, my point of view might suffer a little since I can only
h > relate
h > to the way the rules were interpreted during the early days of
h > Champions.
Welcom back old-timer! How long were you playing Champs prior to '87?
It'll be fun to have another one on the list who knows what I'm
talking about when I get an attack of version-itis. :)
h > On the other hand, this also enables me to clearly see where some of
h > today's rules lawyers have been getting out of hand with their
h > re-interpretations
h > of the way some of the powers interact.
h > In the next few weeks, as I get into the flow of the discussions,
h > I may irritate a few of these rules lawyers.
h > Heck, I'm a rules lawyer myself -- of the worst kind. The world needs
h > us.
h > I can only ask that those who read my ramblings take this into
h > consideration
h > before flaming me too badly.
h >
h > -RICK
OPAL
___
* OFFLINE 1.58 * I am not a Rules Lawyer...I'm a Rules Activist.
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:39:38 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: No-Win Scenarios [Re: GMing Question #1]
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Vox Ludator! wrote:
>
> At 07:04 PM 10/9/97 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
> >(1) Filksinger, you overstate the case . . .
>
> This is a matter of definitions, not "right" or "wrong".
Well, of course it is! That is why I started my comments with an
elaborate, tongue-in-cheek assertion that they were objectively true. I
am sorry if I made the joke too obscure. I *do* think that Filksinger
could profitably relax his definitions a bit.
>
> While Jones was probably being too absolutist, I think you're doing the same
> here.
Well, one good absolutism deserves another. :-)
> Not everything in life, and *certainly* not everything in adventure
> fiction, is so "downer". To put it another way, I would accept that there
> is no victory without loss, but (in fiction at least) the "loss" is usually
> all on The Other Guy's side of the board, about which the victors don't give
> 2 beans.
I disagree about "usually". At least, that is not the case in the
stories that I remember and love best. Wellington said after Waterloo,
"There is nothing half so melancholy as a battle lost, save for a battle
won." If nothing else, the bonfires of victory are also the pyres of
fallen comrades.
On the other hand, I am quite fond of Anglo-Saxon and Germanic legends.
For me, true heroism is expressed in the Battle of Maldon:
Hige sceal heardre, Courage shall be the firmer,
Mod the meare, Purpose the more,
Heorcte sceal the kenre, Heart shall be keener,
Thu ure maegen lyttleth. As our might lessens.
>
> If you and your players enjoy scenarios that ARE so consistently Pyrric,
> hey, go nuts. But YOU HAVE TO CHECK FIRST.
I didn't mean to say that no-win scenarios should dominate the campaign,
just that, since they IMHO dominate life, they are appropriate to almost
any campaign on occasion. In fact, I do this only rarely. I would
hardly make players suffer a steady diet of this sort of thing.
In fact, I insist on varying the diet. Players deserve occasional easy
victories on occasion, and their fair share of Clobberin' Time. They
should also be occasionally falsely charged with crimes, and once in
a while faced with some dark, gritty scenarios that make them really
think about their character disadvantages and place in society.
> Most (not all, certainly, just
> most) of the players I've known have a "Kirk" streak -- they don't believe
> in "no-win scenarios", and would probably lynch the GM who "railroaded" them
That is why I disagreed with Filksinger's definition. It sounded to me
as if one would almost *have* to railroad characters to achieve his
strict definition, and I refuse to railroad characters.
If Kirk is to *solve* the Kobayashi Maru Scenario, someone first has to
place him *in* it. When I put people into a "no-win" scenario, it is
generally one in which their psych lims (such as Code Against Killing)
block the only practical solution to a problem (a villain that cannot be
stopped short of killing). It is up to them to explore how their
characters will deal with the situation, and I will *never* thwart a
reasonable solution.
>
> >have to blow them up to prevent it. It may be the first case
> >of justifiable genocide since Cro Magnon exterminated Neanderthal, but it
> >is the intentional destruction of a race.
>
> Just a nitpick, but ... it's doubtful that Cro-Magnon "exterminated"
> Neanderthal, at least in the same sense that he was to later exterminate the
> passenger pigeon and the dodo.
Well, there you go again, ruining a beautiful literary analogy with mere
facts! :-( :-( :-(
Of course, you are quite right, and I was wondering whether anyone would
bother to correct me on the point. Of course, the anthropological
history of my campaign world need not fit current scientific theories.
Hmmmm......
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
From: "Mann, Wade" <WMann@Rogue.CC.OR.US>
Subject: Poll for OS
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:43:23 -0700
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I am currently developing some software that might be released through
Hero Games. I am trying to figure out the platforms that I should
support.
How many of you are using win 3.x, win95/nt, and/or Mac?
Any information received would be appreciated.
Wade R. Mann
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:02:20 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: No-Win Scenarios [Re: GMing Question #1]
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okies, let's make this the terminating strand? i only scrolled
down to mr speare's post AFTER the last lot, sorry.
I will attempt to adopt a different argumentative strategy when
responding to mr filksinger in future, which i hope will save
time for those who (heaven forfend) don't hang on our every word.
At 07:04 PM 10/9/97 -0700, various people (apologies for quote-mess) wrote:
>
>Messrs Jones and Filksinger are both wrong, some of the time, as are many
>other people who have written on this subject.
>
yes, <obligitory mature agreement speech snipped to save space>
>(3) Mr. Jones, you are being absurd when you assert that only a bad GM
>would ever put in a no-win scenario. Life is mostly *about* no-win
>scenarios. Most bad situations start out as solutions to an earlier bad
>situation. There is no victory without loss. Beowulf dies saving his
>people who are ungrateful and cowardly. Sauron is destroyed, but the
>Three Rings lose their power as a result. Hitler and Tojo are defeated,
>but thirty million people die.
>
no, life is LIFE- not a game, as i have said anystatement about 'reality'
as it relates to and rpg setting is FALSE! i have won tournaments without injury-
and when i have been injured i have enjoyed it none the same.
You can quote tragedy for years, and i can quote miracles... .why bother?
hows about instead we admit that neither of us have a clue? statements hinging
on your own assumptions of reality are not valid in a general discussion,
no matter how right you are.
>(4) John & Ron & everyone who minimized the moral dilemma of the last 800
>survivors of an alien race vs the thousands of humans who would die if
>they landed, I say, "Shame! Shame!" Are any of you really that
>stone-hearted that you cannot feel the tragedy? BTW, the word "genocide"
>is precisely appropriate. If the aliens really have no other option, and
>are not a super-altruistic race, they will attempt to land and you will
>have to blow them up to prevent it. It may be the first case
>of justifiable genocide since Cro Magnon exterminated Neanderthal, but it
>is the intentional destruction of a race.
>
the tragedy of a GAME is not the same as reality- you have to work to
make the pc's feel- not say 'shame on you' for them not blubbering
at your crash-landing greys and imaginary violin music.
>
>Quite possibly. Every so once in a while, I find myself arguing with
>Jones a.k.a. happyelf! a.k.a. Shouty Boy. So far, the only result has
>seemed to be for him to ignore most of what I said, while getting more
>insulting. I had finally been reduced to "broken record", where I
>repeat the same thing over and over, in the hopes of finally getting
>through, but neglected to do this off list. For that, again, my
>apologies.
>
hmm, funny, i could say the same thing, but who cares? they've heard it
all before, hows about you just get over it? our arguments always end up
like this, it has to do with you as much as me- i admit i am substantially
at fault, can't you do the same? As i have said, i will take steps not
to fall into the same pattern of argument with filksinger again.
>(6) To Mr. Jones, who accused Filksinger of setting up an either/or
>scenario, I think that you do him an injustice. There are two *obvious*
>options; there is no reason to prevent the players from exploring others.
except in the early stages of discussion filksinger specifically said
there was NO WAY OUT, before dropping to 'works for my players' and then
recently to 'that's not what i meant', which has all happened before on
both sides. .
>(7) Mr. Jones, you may claim that you give your players *unlimited*
>options, but you can't possibly mean this.
<snip various infinity-blah's>
i said 'potentially unlimited options', and i was speaking in the context
of the pc's actions in a given scenario. . .. PLEASE don't let's go through
the 'functional infinity' thing. . sufficed to say i was speaking in terms
of RELATIVELY UNENDING self-conplexifying schema. . . .
i think i have way more grounds for suggesting that filksinger originally
spoke of no-win situations than you have of arguing i attemp to interface
with God when i gm *lol*
>> (confused look, funny hairdo)
>> the gm can reject whatever he wants - just by saying "no, that desn't work".
>
>{scratching head, looking at funny hairdo}
>
>Yes, but ...
>
>Maybe I have just had good GMs. When a GM has said to me, "you can't do
>X" there is almost always a good reason that makes sense in terms of
>the rules, the setting and the powers and disadvantages of the
>characters. I can't think of the last time a GM that I played with
>said, "No, you can't do that because it isn't the solution I was
>thinking of."
>
that's my point- if people start thinking in absolute plot-oriented terms
the gm has more and more of an option to simply ignore something that doesn't
fit his script. .
>Perhaps I should have said, if an action is allowable under the
>rules, does not violate a psych or phys lim and is not impossible in
>the campaign setting, why interfere? If the action has consequences
>(such as breaking the law), then the PC should be given fair
>warning, but if the PC wants to take the risk, go ahead.
>
yup! *g* fine by me!
>Could it be that (gasp!) we are agreeing, more or less?
>
well if your always right, and i know I'm always right. . we MUST be thinking the same thing. . . .right? *l*
>(How does [Brecht] come into the matter of Hitler's art? He was a poet,
>novelist and playwright, not a painter, art critic nor dealer.)
>
Brect is an artist i love to hate. *sigh* actually i'm always looking
for an excuse to go back in time and ice him in my games. . . *l*
>In any event, I have seen some of Hitler's paintings in books, and I
>don't think that you could even sell them at First Friday! (And someone
>will buy almost any trash imaginable there.)
>
well, maybe not fuzion ;->~
>> It was set up so the PC's would lose the first several
>> fights they got into with the villians, then they would learn to overcome
>> them later.
>
>This is a fairly standard sort of plot line: I assume that special
>knowledge, a special weapon was needed or a special martial arts
>technique was needed to defeat the 7H?
>
i assumed it was 'special plot device' i.e. 'when the module says so and not
b4'. ..
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 00:13:43 +0000
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Reply-to: ghoyle1@airmail.net
Priority: normal
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> I agree that applying the rule as I interpret it introduces the
> question of whether powered armor might give one character +15 STR and
> another +30 STR. I could see granting waivers on the doubled cost if the
> special effect made it seem silly and the use was not abusive. I also
> think I recall that Defender antedates Normal Characteristic Maxima.
> Could this be an error in conversion to 4th edition?
Defender is a 4th-edition character, appearing in the same set of
rules as the latest version of NCM, i.e. the BBB.
>
> > >
> > >Huh? The program is not based on Hero 4th Edition? . . .
> >
> > It is based on the 4th Edition. That's what he was saying: this isn't a
> > well-publicized feature of 4th Edition HERO System.
>
> OIC. While I still disagree that the rules say what you think they say,
> I now understand that Guy meant that Heromaker implements some 4th
> edition rules that are not widely understood.
Thanks, at least for the last part of that. I guess the crux of this
particular issue is, are characteristics that are built as powers
still considered to be the same as characteristics NOT built as
powers? I think of them as different special effects (if it matters
in a particular situation). They are defined as standard powers,
which, I might argue, are NOT subject to the NCM rules. If you can
apply the NCM disads to this particular set of powers, why
not all of them? We know that, in the case of other metapowers which
incorporate characteristics (Growth and Density Increase, for
example), these characteristics are not affected by NCM; can we
assume the same for Characteristics-as-Powers?
No, we can't, by a strict interpretation of the rules, but this is
one of those areas that was apparently left vague on purpose.
However, I don't know what purpose is served by leaving this issue
vague. I've seen games torn apart over such issues as this. Why
don't these game designers just say something like, "The GM must
decide whether Characteristics-as-Powers are to be affected by the
NCM disad or not"; at least we'd know that they don't want to pin it
down, and we can make a much more informed decision for ourselves
based upon the rules. What they call "gray areas" I call sloppy
design.
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:14:33 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: No-Win Scenarios [Re: GMing Question #1]
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At 04:39 PM 10/10/97 -0700, you wrote:
>> Not everything in life, and *certainly* not everything in adventure
>> fiction, is so "downer". To put it another way, I would accept that there
>> is no victory without loss, but (in fiction at least) the "loss" is usually
>> all on The Other Guy's side of the board, about which the victors don't give
>> 2 beans.
>
>I disagree about "usually". At least, that is not the case in the
>stories that I remember and love best. Wellington said after Waterloo,
>"There is nothing half so melancholy as a battle lost, save for a battle
>won." If nothing else, the bonfires of victory are also the pyres of
>fallen comrades.
>
yes, but once again the original point wasn't around this issue AND there's no
reason you can't arrive at a pyrric victory dring free planning-
in fact a pc's plan is much less likely to 'survive contact with the enemy' ect,
because the gm hasn't planned in advance what will occur, ect, and hence is
forced to improvise what occurs- which i think is the only way any rpg
ever comes close to reality.
>>
>> If you and your players enjoy scenarios that ARE so consistently Pyrric,
>> hey, go nuts. But YOU HAVE TO CHECK FIRST.
>
>I didn't mean to say that no-win scenarios should dominate the campaign,
>just that, since they IMHO dominate life, they are appropriate to almost
>any campaign on occasion. In fact, I do this only rarely. I would
>hardly make players suffer a steady diet of this sort of thing.
>
once again it's a matter of deffinitions- a situation can TURN OUT to be
no-win- becasue it isn't won! the differernce is if the gm doesn't plan it,
the players get more of a feeling of involvement, and the emotional value
of defeat and failure is far more 'entertaining'. ..
>In fact, I insist on varying the diet. Players deserve occasional easy
>victories on occasion, and their fair share of Clobberin' Time. They
>should also be occasionally falsely charged with crimes, and once in
>a while faced with some dark, gritty scenarios that make them really
>think about their character disadvantages and place in society.
>
yeah, but why plan it so stringently? what's the problem if your pc's
run into your 'gritty' super-addict-serial killer by chance and clobber him,
learning nothing? or they punch the great 'destructor' through a bus and he
ends up a paraplegic(sp)? More realistic i think, than anything pre-planned. . .
>> Most (not all, certainly, just
>> most) of the players I've known have a "Kirk" streak -- they don't believe
>> in "no-win scenarios", and would probably lynch the GM who "railroaded" them
>
<snip>
>If Kirk is to *solve* the Kobayashi Maru Scenario, someone first has to
>place him *in* it. When I put people into a "no-win" scenario, it is
>generally one in which their psych lims (such as Code Against Killing)
>block the only practical solution to a problem (a villain that cannot be
>stopped short of killing). It is up to them to explore how their
>characters will deal with the situation, and I will *never* thwart a
>reasonable solution.
>
hence the distinction. i think at the present time, everyone
speaking on this issue agrees with this guideline. Shall
we leave it there?
>
>Of course, you are quite right, and I was wondering whether anyone would
>bother to correct me on the point. Of course, the anthropological
>history of my campaign world need not fit current scientific theories.
>
so you don't have dinosaur men in your pre-history? SHAME! SHAME!! *j/k*
>Hmmmm......
>
>
>--
><------------------------------------------------------->
>Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
>Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
>http://www.erols.com/robtwest
>
>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 00:18:14 +0000
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Reply-to: ghoyle1@airmail.net
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> Years of experience with computer systems of all kinds have shown me
> that, as a rule, when I find that a program disagrees with a written
> specification, it is a misunderstanding on the part of the programmer. I
> have spent much of my professional life picking up the millions of
> dollars of damage done by such errors, while other people are
> wasting their time insisting that the program cannot be wrong.
Of course, one of the game designers WAS involved in the programming.
>
> This has given me a jaundiced attitude towards reverse-engineering
> specifications from a program. When a couple of posters stated that they
> were using the program to interpret the rulebook, I recalled that the
> most experienced Hero gamers that I know have stated that there are minor
> bugs in the program, and related the only one I could recall offhand.
> This was intended as a caveat against relying too heavily on reverse
> engineering, not as a slam on the product.
Most of the "bugs" I've found seem to be more in terms of program
functionality, such as weird printing problems. The program itself
really seems to follow the letter of the rules in every case I've
seen. If you have any more specific observations about deviations of
the rules, let me know; I'd like to see 'em.
>
> > You also might want to consider a less insulting tone to your posts.
> > Just because you disagree with someone is no reason to talk to them like
> > they are an idiot. It's a pretty quick way to get people to just plain
> > ignore your posts.
>
> I have reviewed several of my posts, and am perplexed as to why you think
> that I am treating anyone as an idiot. If anyone has read me that way, I
> am sorry, but I think that my remarks were appropriate to a professional
> level discussion about an area of shared expertise and interest.
I wasn't insulted. Other regular posters are far more inflammatory,
IMNSHO.
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 00:22:56 +0000
Subject: Re: Pushing
Reply-to: ghoyle1@airmail.net
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>
> Something that we ended up with as a house rule is pushing on Movement
> powers. It's allowed, but it was decided that you can't use Pushing
> to more than double the amount of movement you have.
> We did this after a brick, with 2" of Swimming, started Pushing for
> another 10 Active points worth and was zooming around at 12" like a
> torpedo. He had tons of END to spare, so he could keep it up for
> the whole fight.
Any reason why a super-strong character SHOULDN'T be able to propel
himself through the water like a torpedo? After all, he can leap
around like a kangaroo on steroids.
Guy
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:36:10 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Pushing/multipowers
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At 08:22 PM 10/10/97 +0600, you wrote:
> Here's some questions I have about Pushing, I'm looking for
>"official" rulings and also "how do *you* handle it" stuff.
> Which Powers are Push-able? Just Attack Powers? Are Movement
>Powers fair game? What about Teleportation? Would you allow a character to
>Push his Force Field? And how long would *that* last?
> Are partial Pushes acceptable? ex. A 10d6 EB pushed to only 11d6
>(assume no Advantages). And, if so, is the extra END based off of only how
>much was Pushed? ex.2. A 10d6 AP EB pushed to 11d6 AP EB. Does it only
>cost 7 extra END?
>
> Basically, *any* comments I can get here (on topic, and
>non-threatening : ) would be greatly appreciated and probably helpful.
>
>- Jerry
>
>
i say 10 end for 10 active points. furthemore, i only allow
pushing at the 'base' function of the power- for instance
you can't push your non-combat movement multiple, or little bits
of powers like paricular options for invisibility
also, i find this links to multipowers and drains- exactle how
do you spread out concepts like the base cost of say, teleport,
and then add things like non-combat multiple? i usually consider
ncm costs to be part of the 'base points' which are needed to
make the power go at all. . . . can someone drain off your
'vacume/high pressure' without affecting your other options?
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:59:17 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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At 08:47 PM 10/10/97 +0600, you wrote:
>At 09:00 AM 10/11/97 +1000, Michael Jones wrote:
>I know this is a little off topic...
>>the gm is GOD! he can stall any option just by saying
>>'that doesn't work', surely you can't be suggesting that the
>>pc's can effect this? there are not 'bargaining chips' in an rpg. . .
>>
> Heck, yeah, there' s bargaining chips! Sometimes, they're even
>*actual* chips (i.e. potato) or maybe some soda. Or pizza. Or kewl
>drawings the Players did...
>
>- Jerry (who is sorry, but he couldn't resist)
>
>
okay, i vote we add another strand! *g*
how do people bargain with their gm? i realise this is 'general rp', but hell!
mostly these will be 'monty haul' stories i assume, like the guy who
handed out a dagger which shot out little daggers after getting
$20 out of a player. .. .or the hero gm who just gave out 1 cp for each
dollar of food value. . .
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:04:44 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Pushing/multipowers
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At 08:51 PM 10/10/97 +0600, you wrote:
>I didn't actually see you ask about Multipowers. But, on your other points,
>I would probably allow a Drain v. LS: Vacuum/High Pressure without it
>affecting the other parts of LS. Why? Because I could see LS being bought
>as several different Powers. Then again, I might see a SFX argument here...
>I wouldn't think you could Drain NCM of a Power, unless perhaps it was
>purchased separately, with additional Limitations. What you say about NCM
>and extra senses on Invisibility and Images makes sense; they're part of the
>"base" Power.
>
>- Jerry
>
>
my points can probably apply to multipowers as well-
if you have 60 cp teleport in a multipower, can you
get 10' of normal move and then say the 4 levels of ncm you bought,
for a total of 40 cp? or do you have to place it in stages, mayne 1 5-point
ncm or each 5 cp of normal move you place in the slot?
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:07:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, Mann, Wade wrote:
> I am currently developing some software that might be released through
> Hero Games. I am trying to figure out the platforms that I should
> support.
>
> How many of you are using win 3.x, win95/nt, and/or Mac?
Macintosh System 7.1. The only way to go!
(Soon the be a Power PC and System 8 come Christmas!)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Pushing
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>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
JD> Which Powers are Push-able? Just Attack Powers? Are Movement
JD> Powers fair game? What about Teleportation? Would you allow a
JD> character to Push his Force Field? And how long would *that* last?
First point: there is no such thing as "attack powers". There are powers
that may be used both offensively and defensively.
Official Rule: any power that uses END may be pushed. Pushing constant or
continuous powers lasts until the character's next action phase starts.
GM's call: powers that have the 0 END advantage may be pushed. The pushed
points should probably still cost END, though.
JD> Are partial Pushes acceptable? ex. A 10d6 EB pushed to only
JD> 11d6 (assume no Advantages).
Sure, at least in supers games where you decide how many active points you
wish to push.
JD> And, if so, is the extra END based off of only how much was Pushed?
This is correct.
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Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:10:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Pushing
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On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> Here's some questions I have about Pushing, I'm looking for
> "official" rulings and also "how do *you* handle it" stuff.
IMO Any power that costs END can be pushed. I do beleive that the BBB
says you *can't* push a power that is bought to 0 END.
> Which Powers are Push-able? Just Attack Powers? Are Movement
> Powers fair game? What about Teleportation? Would you allow a character to
> Push his Force Field? And how long would *that* last?
See above. For the FF, till the character's next Phase.
> Are partial Pushes acceptable? ex. A 10d6 EB pushed to only 11d6
> (assume no Advantages). And, if so, is the extra END based off of only how
> much was Pushed? ex.2. A 10d6 AP EB pushed to 11d6 AP EB. Does it only
> cost 7 extra END?
Yeah, that shounds about right. There should also be allowances made for
'unlimited pushes', there the PC gets a huge amount of Active Points to
tack onto his powers. Naturally,m these pushes should be used in real
serious situations.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
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***************************************************************************
From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 17:11:03 -0800
Organization: Terminal BBS (403)327-9731
Subject: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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-=> Quoting Vox Ludator! to Mike Lehmann <=-
VL> As a mere example, this has the following ramifications:
VL> 1) CHAR supplied by Absorption, Aid, or Transfer are not
VL> affected by CHAR Maxima -- don't halve their effect past 20.
VL> 2) PD & ED from Armor don't count against the Maxima of 8
VL> each. 3) CHAR bought with an Advantage or Limitation, thereby
VL> becoming a "Standard Power", do not count against the Maxima
VL> for the corresponding CHAR.
I think #2 (which should also include Force Field) is valid, and in
certain cases #1 might be. After all, they are actual powers. However,
stats bought through foci (such as an armor suit), IMO, are still stats
and should be limited by NCM.
I also have a related question.
Under Density Increase and Growth, those powers provide STR, as well as
either PD/ED (non-resistant) or BODY and STUN, respectively.
I've always worked under the assumption that the STR granted by these
powers cannot affect figured characteristics, because the power already
adds to other figured stats (PD or STUN).
However, I noticed such a discrepancy in the "Animals" section (pg
196-197, BBB), where (for example) the Horse w/ 15 pts of Growth and 10
base STR has 5 PD for free (presumably, from it's now 25 points of STR.
This would seem to imply that such STR *does* apply to figured stats.
I notice that the NPCs were not figured this way, and was wondering: has
HERO games ever established their ruling for this? I presume the animals
section is wrong, but I was wondering if anyone else was bugged by this?
mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net - - - - - Justice Krewe / Enigma Watch GM
- - - - - - http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html - - - - - -
... Something in the next shadow is waiting to eat your face.
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
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>>>>> "MW" == Mann, Wade <WMann@Rogue.CC.OR.US> writes:
MW> How many of you are using win 3.x, win95/nt, and/or Mac?
None of the above. Linux and Newton 2.0... and the way code for Newton is
written would make it really easy to do something like HeroMaker.
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 04:05:52 +0000
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
Reply-to: ghoyle1@airmail.net
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Proud to be using Windows 95---oops. Wait a second while I
reinstall...
Guy
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Pushing
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 00:41:11 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: VTSFFC
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Something that we ended up with as a house rule is pushing on Movement
powers. It's allowed, but it was decided that you can't use Pushing
to more than double the amount of movement you have.
We did this after a brick, with 2" of Swimming, started Pushing for
another 10 Active points worth and was zooming around at 12" like a
torpedo. He had tons of END to spare, so he could keep it up for
the whole fight.
Daniel Pawtowski
dpawtows@vt.edu
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 00:43:32 -0400 (EDT)
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>
> How many of you are using win 3.x, win95/nt, and/or Mac?
None of the above, I use DOS 7.0. :-)
Daniel Pawtowski
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:06:53 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Antinomy/Tragedy/No-Win Situations and GMing Question #1
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Really only putting forth examples here, from my experience...
Players do sometimes ask for things that are downright *horrible*
for their characters. "I want to fight the Black Paladin again," says
Knightfire. "I want a rematch, where this time I can use my Powers w/o
giving up my Secret ID." He'd proabably still lose, and I don't think he
realizes it. This isn't strictly "No-Win," as he could get really lucky
(get loaded dice?), but it could end in tragedy...
More along the lines that Filksinger was speaking of... Knightfire
said, "Maybe my DNPC fiance could get kidnapped and I would get to hunt down
the perpetrators." Not the best example, but a tragedy nonetheless.
When faced with the possibility that I would not be coming back to
college this year, and thus ending my campaign here, I said to one of my
players, "Force, do you want to die?" Force said, "WHAT?" (I'm not sure
what he thought I meant... : ) When I explained it to him, he was cool.
Force went on a military Black Op, and was killed in the line of duty. And
it was a No-Win situation. He was trapped deep inside a complex that it
took him several hours to completely infiltrate. Then the countdown timer
was set for 30 seconds... Now, I'm back at college, and if Joel wants to
play, I've already told him that he could be Force, that he would be able to
have escaped. He said, "Cool. How did I get out?" I told him, "It doesn't
matter, you did, and then a Ranger team picked you up." Honestly, it *was*
a No-Win situation, and there was no conceivable way out.
Finally, Nimbus... Rolando doesn't want his character to continue
on without him. So, before we graduate, he wants Nimbus to die. He *asked*
for Nimbus to die. Nimbus *will* die. I have already started thinking of
ways to kill him (I don't usually do this), and have come up with either an
interdimensional rift or nuclear weapon. As a plot device, he would be able
to close/contain the problem, but *ONLY* at the cost of his own life. And
Rolando (the player) and Nimbus (the character) would both know this. And
he would be very happy, as he would save at least an entire city, and die a
true hero.
There is room in some games for tragedy, antinomy (like Nimbus final
scene, above), and No-Win situations. They're not for everyone, or all the
time (unless you have some peculiar tastes), but they're viable anyway.
This is pretty much also a nod to Filksinger and Michael Jones, who
both have put some good points up on the list.
- Jerry
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 02:45:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
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> > How many of you are using win 3.x, win95/nt, and/or Mac?
>
> Macintosh System 7.1. The only way to go!
>
> (Soon the be a Power PC and System 8 come Christmas!)
I'm wondering how all the Macinfools feel about their favorite
name brand becoming a real OS in the near future. With Raphsody, the Mac
will become simply a graphic shell for the _only_ real OS, UNIX. Ahh.
gotta love progress.
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 16:55:29 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Antinomy/Tragedy/No-Win Situations and GMing Question #1
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At 03:38 PM 10/11/97 -0400, John Prins wrote:
>>it was a No-Win situation. He was trapped deep inside a complex that it
>>took him several hours to completely infiltrate. Then the countdown timer
>>was set for 30 seconds... Now, I'm back at college, and if Joel wants to
>>play, I've already told him that he could be Force, that he would be able to
>>have escaped. He said, "Cool. How did I get out?" I told him, "It doesn't
>>matter, you did, and then a Ranger team picked you up." Honestly, it *was*
>>a No-Win situation, and there was no conceivable way out.
>
>Hey, this is Champions we're talking here!
Yes, it is. That's why it's on this list.
>The explosion threw him through a dimensional portal!
Even if a conventional explosion could have thrown him through such a portal
(perhaps due to 'residue' from when he went to Hell, although the 'residue'
would be on his Powered Armor, which he wasn't wearing), he would have no
conceivable way of returning from said dimension, without several solo
adventures.
>He was captured via teleportation by his enemies!
The enemies were the ones who blew him up. And their Teleportation
technology isn't anywhere *near* reliable enough.
>He was rescued by a magician who needed his services!
The magicians who would be powerful enough to find him and get him out
*right before he died* would be powerful enough not to need his services.
>It wasn't really him, just his android duplicate!
But it *was* him, and if it wasn't he wouldn't've earned the XP. Plus, no
true androids, yet.
>He fell through a fissure in the foundations and came face to face with the
terrible Mole-Men!
GAH! NO! Nope, no Mole-Men. Unless it was another of those
Extradimensional Portals, then see above.
>He was pulled from the rubble and rebuilt into a military cyborg!
This one's possible, but not what Joel wants. At all.
>He got really, really, really lucky and was able to dig his way out of the
rubble...
Again, this is possible. Maybe that's what happened, he was just too
delirious to remember.
>
>Sheesh. In Champions, death is the _easy_ way out.
>
Thanks for belittling me, though.
I know you're trying to poke holes in my assertion that there was "no way
out." If *he* came up with an idea, I'd probably let him have it. But he
didn't. HE asked ME, "How did I get out?" So, it doesn't matter.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:04:25 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Antinomy/Tragedy/No-Win Situations and GMing Question #1
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John Prins wrote:
>Hey, this is Champions we're talking here! The explosion threw him through a
>dimensional portal! He was captured via teleportation by his enemies! He was
>rescued by a magician who needed his services! It wasn't really him, just
>his android duplicate! He fell through a fissure in the foundations and came
>face to face with the terrible Mole-Men! He was pulled from the rubble and
>rebuilt into a military cyborg! He got really, really, really lucky and was
>able to dig his way out of the rubble...
>
>Sheesh. In Champions, death is the _easy_ way out.
>
Okay, I just responded to this, and wanted to clarify my response. I
realize you were probably not attempting to belittle me, or my gameworld,
but at most my assertion that it was a "No-Win" situation.
However, as I pointed out in my other posts, there were no really obvious,
interesting, and/or heroic ways to get out. I couldn't (admittedly didn't
try hard) think of any. Joel obviously couldn't either.
Please chalk up any antagonism in my last post to... impassioned reactions.
Or Bad Temper. Whichever.
- Jerry
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 04:40:13 -0700
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On 10/10/97 7:09 PM, happyelf! wrote:
>At 01:00 AM 10/9/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>not in a game!! in REAL LIFE yes, but in a game the emoitional
>power just isn't there. . . you have to WORK to make people feel
>for things, hell- most people are flat out giving a sh*t about the
>homeless irl, littleown homeless aliens in a super rpg. . .
Maybe. Many of the players I've had are "Role Man" types, and really
get into a character feeling bad about something like this, but it
isn't for everyone.
It isn't even for all the "Role Man" types. I have at least one player
who I am sure would feel bad about this scenario for weeks, because
he'd really feel that he, personally, had made that choice, and would
feel guilty about it.
<snip>
>
>the difference is context. In both cases, the GAME REALITY
>can be identical, but the lpayers attitudes are different.
>I would sugesst that players who ask for something in advance
>and play through basically a pre-set scenario in SOME ways
>mush get a kick out of performance and roleplaying their
>characters clinically, but i don't see them
>becoming immersed in the emotions of the plot. .
>their pc's might, but how can they? I KNOW you groups is yours, ect,
>i saying this in yet another attempt to generalise the issue. .
Possibly. The group I had that really got into playing such things was
atypical, I'm sure, but not just because they got into emotions that
most people wouldn't care about in a game. My present group would,
likely as not, not be pleased with something like this, not because
they wouldn't "feel" it, but because at least one of them personalizes
things too much, and wouldn't like the feeling of playing a tragedy.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: No-Win Scenarios [Re: GMing Question #1]
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 04:41:53 -0700
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On 10/10/97 2:17 PM, Robert A. West wrote:
<snip>
>I *do* think that Filksinger
>could profitably relax his definitions a bit.
Well, yes, except that it would destroy the point. The point was that
the absolute, no way out, "no-win" scenario has its place. Rarely,
only in certain campaigns, and certainly only with certain players,
but it has its place.
I chose the term "no-win" specifically because I wanted an absolute.
Thus, when people started watering down "no-win", I kept pushing for
the strict definition, because that was why I introduced the term in
the first place.
<snip>
>> If you and your players enjoy scenarios that ARE so consistently
Pyrric,
>> hey, go nuts. But YOU HAVE TO CHECK FIRST.
>
>I didn't mean to say that no-win scenarios should dominate the
campaign,
>just that, since they IMHO dominate life, they are appropriate to
almost
>any campaign on occasion. In fact, I do this only rarely. I would
>hardly make players suffer a steady diet of this sort of thing.
Certainly not. In the one short lived group I had where they _asked_
for this kind of stuff, no win still wasn't the diet, just a menu
item.
<snip>
>That is why I disagreed with Filksinger's definition. It sounded to
me
>as if one would almost *have* to railroad characters to achieve his
>strict definition, and I refuse to railroad characters.
Yes, that is generally true. It has to be handed down "this is the way
it is". Not the sort of thing that you normally would give players,
no. At least, not if you a) want them to like it, and b) plan on
enjoying it yourself. The first is hard to achieve with a "railroad"
situation like this, and the other is equally hard to achieve for me,
personally, in either a "railroad" situation or a tragedy.
>If Kirk is to *solve* the Kobayashi Maru Scenario, someone first has
to
>place him *in* it. When I put people into a "no-win" scenario, it is
>generally one in which their psych lims (such as Code Against
Killing)
>block the only practical solution to a problem (a villain that cannot
be
>stopped short of killing). It is up to them to explore how their
>characters will deal with the situation, and I will *never* thwart a
>reasonable solution.
Definitely the best way to do it in most cases. More interesting and
more fun, at least for most people. Give them a way out, but make it
rough, and make them work at it. Maybe even make them redefine the
character, if that's the way they want to go with it. But save a true
"no win" scenario for those players who really, really want it.
I would definitely agree with most of what has been said about the
"no-win" scenario so far. I apologize if I appear to be taking a
rather silly hard line approach, but the responses I have been
objecting to have been of the "that is bad, and should never be done",
equally hard line approach from the other side. I certainly wouldn't
want to play this sort of thing more than very rarely, and for that
matter wouldn't want to GM it more than very rarely, either. I just
don't think the absolute "no-win" scenario should be utterly
forbidden.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 04:45:13 -0700
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On 10/10/1997 4:17 PM, happyelf! wrote:
<snip
>but when they do. . look, it is becoming less and less
>viable that this whole issue revolves around something
>the pc's specifically asked for. What is the place of this
>sort of scenario in general?
It depends considerably upon the players. My present group would play
a "no-win" scenario, defined as one they couldn't win, as a one-time
thing, but not a really serious "no win scenario", because at least
some of them take things that happen to their characters too
personally. IOW, if I forced them to choose between saving two worlds,
and the game revolved around how they made this difficult decision,
they'd feel as if they, personally, had destroyed a planet. No fun.
I have seen groups that are so heavily into "playing a role" that they
don't bother with any sort of dice, or even rules. They decide whether
or not their characters win or lose, prevail or fail, simply by which
they think fits the character and the aspects of the character they
want to explore. These people play role playing games as if they were
soap operas, with magic or super powers thrown in for an exotic
flavor. This sort of group actually likes this sort of thing, as part
of a
general diet. I would like to play it once or twice, but that is just
too far.
<snip>
>different? no the same! endless possibilities means it's ALWAYS
>different! once again you attempt the 'my restriction is freeer
>that your lack therof' argument.
I admit I went overboard with that position. I was simply trying to
say that I didn't want to completely rule out any sort of game that
might appeal, whether only to some players or only once in a blue
moon.
<snip>
>>>and the tregedy of the dictionary deffinition is that
>>>there are *multiple* solution, but they cost. .
>>
>>
>>Odd. That certainly isn't part of my dictionary's definition. Any of
>>them.
>>
>
>really? didn't i spot something about 'two or more equally valid
>but contradictory' ect, al. . . .. ?
I think we're getting our wires crossed here. We are talking about two
different things- tragedy and antinomy.
Tragedy can be achieved many ways. One of the more difficult to create
and one of the more poignant is antinomy. Antinomy requires multiple
solutions, with the two best being both equally bad.
Antinomy is usually tragedy, but tragedy doesn't have to be antinomy.
Tragedy can be a case of multiple answers, all bad, but doesn't
have to be. It could be a case of "no answer at all", or "you had
answers, but you blew it", or "its already too late, and its all your
fault", or other possibilities.
>>>so the gm just decided when this occurs?
>>
>>Not necessarily.
>>
>
>yes, in order for the plot to be restricted in outcome,
>you better believe the gm's in on it! pc's can't
>even do a mass suicide without 'big G's say-so. .
Yes, the GM is in on it, no, he doesn't necessarily "just decide".
Sometimes that is appropriate, but in a case of big time tragedy, I
would probably never to decide to do it without at least asking, and
probably would only do it if the players indicated that they wanted a
tragedy. If I "just decide" to have a tragedy, the players either
won't
get into it, or they might get into it too much, and feel bad. I've
had both sorts, as well as ones who thrived on tragedy and other "not
fun" stuff.
<snip>
>>No, they get to fix it. Then, if they still want a no-win scenario,
I
>>would have to start over.
>>
>
>YES!!! so it ISN'T a no-win scenario! they can win!!!!!!!!
It is _intended_ to be a no win scenario. Sometimes, in the interests
of game viability, you can't quite create what was intended, even if
you are willing to force it. If you force it too far, even when the
players ask for it, you can break it.
There are two ways to design a no-win scenario. One is when you design
it with the expectation that your characters can get around it. This
isn't what I mean by a no win scenario, but is certainly a better
scenario for general use, as it will be more fun for most groups most
of the time.
The other is one designed with the actual intention that the players
will definitely _not_ find a way out. This one is a specialty
scenario, generally to be either fairly minor _or_ one that the
players indicate they want to play. This one shouldn't just be thrown
out, because it will make many players feel bad, and just be no fun
for others.
If properly designed, the second should have no way out; that is its
purpose. However, if the players find a clear loophole, then I have to
let them take it, because it is already too forced to allow GM fiat-
"sorry, I realize that is a perfect solution, but here's something
I've
just created to stop you." If I play such a scenario, it is with the
clear intention of "no way out", but I can only force it so far.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 05:29:12 -0700
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On 10/10/97 7:08 PM, happyelf! wrote:
>you make the assertion that you gm this sort of thing only
>when the players ask for it? since you've already
>decided to take this whole thing personally hows about i just
>come right out and say that sounds pretty damn suspect to me?
Fair enough.
I only play a severe, no-way-out tragedy when the players ask for it,
because most players will find this sort of thing rarely or never
"fun". I, personally, wouldn't want to play this more than rarely, and
with warning, myself, and assume that they wouldn't, either.
Additionally, I don't like _GMing_ tragedies. There are very few
books, plays, or movies that were tragedies that I enjoyed. They just
plain make me feel bad. I require the players to ask for a real
tragedy because that is the only way I don't feel bad designing or
running it.
>>>A situation should be 'no-win' becuase that the way
>>>it turns out, not becase that's the way the gm planns it. .
>>
>>Sorry, just because you say, "It should be this way," doesn't make
it
>>so. A no-win scenario, _by definition_, has no way to win. A GM who
>>created a scenario where it was _impossible_ to win, and created it
>>_accidentally_, without knowing that he was creating an unwinable
>>scenario, is incompetent.
>>
>
>no, he's YOU- you said so yourself if the pc's find a valid enough
answer. . ..
>hence we see the reverse- a no-win situation wich can be won through
>improvisation (not gm planning)is winnable, which is how it should be
>done- that is, if you want to entertain people?
Hmmm. I would have to say, "I agree with you 100%, save that,
sometimes, some players who actually like playing extreme, tragic
circumstances, want a situation where they get to play 'no way out'. "
That is, some people are actually entertained by this stuff. I barely
understand that, as I'd like to play it once, but only barely.
<snip>
>
>if i wanted to dump on you i'd pay out your font
>useing a HOTMAIL account.
>PLEASE stop taking things personally.
Sorry. It's just that you have a habit of saying, "You do X", where X
is something I object to. If I say, "You do X", then, while I might
not mean it to be insulting or offensive, I do mean _you_. I might be
trying to pin you down because I don't know what you mean, or
compliment you, or whatever, but I usually mean you if I say you,
unless I say it is a general case. If I mean something general (as you
say you did), I try to say things like, "Some GMs X" or "Some players
X", or at least, "generally, you shouldn't X".
Perhaps I've gotten spoiled by the "Heinlein Forum" (_NOT_
alt.fan.heinlein), but you seemed to intend things a bit more personal
than I am comfortable with. Since this apparently wasn't your intent,
my apologies, to you and the group.
>>>a player can make these suggestions, but it
>>>is unfair for a gm to do so. ..
>>
>>Now its unfair for a GM to make _suggestions_ in the game he
referees?
>>
>
>it is unfair for a gm to ask after a sceanrio and then instate it,
>claming that the players asked him to do so.
Well, if the GM said, "Do you want to play a no-win, tragic scenario,
where you will definitely fail in the end?", and the players all say,
"Sure, that sounds interesting," I'd probably find that acceptable.
However, I agree that you should be certain that they know what they
are getting and they actually _want_ to play that.
>The sceanrio is
>ALWAYS the responsibility of the gm, who should NEVER assume a
>'you asked for it' attutude with his players.
True, at least for an extreme scenario like the one described. I'd
have to be asked outright for such a scenario, because most players
would find it unpleasant, at the very least. Besides, I am
uncomfortable with tragic scenarios myself, unless the target clearly
wants a tragedy.
Of course, to some degree that is the sort of thing a GM does all the
time, guessing what the players would like. However, I'd never _guess_
"You'd like to have a tragic, no win scenario, so you could explore
how your character would handle massive tragedy and guilt." Instead, I
guess things like, "You'd like a massive, everyone and their hunteds
and their hunteds and... sort of battle downtown." That way, if I'm
wrong, I don't get anyone mad at me.
<snip>
>read the above again- i'm not talking about the choice of scenario,
>but the context. If the players go into a situation doomed to
failure,
>that whole thing has much less effect than if they fail simply
because
>of chance or error, no matter HOW much they're asked to play that way
Hmm, yes, with most players. I think we agree on this one. We've
gotten to the point of you saying, "This is generally true", while I
keep saying, "But there are, at least rarely, exceptions." I think we
could probably both agree on, "This is generally true, but there are
rare exceptions." The only real difference is that you neither want to
play in or run the exceptions, while I want to play in one once, and
ran one once.
That, and what you call "no-win" (i.e. You tell them they can't win,
but they really can, even if you don't know how), I call the
"impossible odds" scenario, which isn't really impossible, of course,
though I may not know _how_ it is possible. At least some of the
problem here is that our definitions of "no-win" are different.
<snip>
>Shall we halt this here?
Let's.
Filksinger
Comments: Authenticated sender is <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca>
From: "Vance Scott" <vances@sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:47:29 +0000
Subject: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
Reply-to: vances@sympatico.ca
CC: hero-l@emerald.omg.org, "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com&>
francisb@toronto.planeteer.com
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I'd like to borrow peoples thoughts on time lines. I'm trying to
construct a time line for my champions campaign, and I figured that
some help would be in order. Responses need not be limited to
SuperHero worlds. I'm fairly certain that time lines for fantasy, or
science-fiction worlds follow the same basic rules.
Some questions that might help replies be more useful.
1. What is a time line?
- A time line is a chronologically ordered history. A time line
records memorable, and important events for posterity.
- I think I have this one covered, but in any project it's important
to define just what you are working with. So if you think I missed
something feel free to post such.
2. What purposes do fictional time lines serve?
3. How do I construct a fictional time line?
4. How do I use a fictional time line?
Vance Scott
Vanquisher of all foes.
From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 04:48:17 -0800
Organization: Terminal BBS (403)327-9731
Subject: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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-=> Quoting Rick Ryker to Mike Lehmann <=-
> VL> As a mere example, this has the following ramifications:
> VL> 1) CHAR supplied by Absorption, Aid, or Transfer are not
> VL> affected by CHAR Maxima -- don't halve their effect past 20.
> VL> 2) PD & ED from Armor don't count against the Maxima of 8
> VL> each. 3) CHAR bought with an Advantage or Limitation, thereby
> VL> becoming a "Standard Power", do not count against the Maxima
> VL> for the corresponding CHAR.
> I think #2 (which should also include Force Field) is valid, and in
> certain cases #1 might be. After all, they are actual powers. However,
> stats bought through foci (such as an armor suit), IMO, are still
> stats and should be limited by NCM.
RR> In many of their responses, they have said that stats bought as powers
RR> do not fall under NCM. The NCM refers to the base stats of the person
RR> -- not his powers/focii/magic/etc.
I'm sorry, perhaps you didn't notice the IMO (in my opinion) in the last
sentence. I wasn't asking a question, I was stating my opinion, which
was: Buying NCM for a character who does not follow the restrictions of
NCM on stats (in addition to getting them cheaper in the first place)
invalidates the NCM disad, unless a great deal (50% or more) of the
character's time was spent without the boosted stats.
All of the above is IMO, of course.
RR> HERO changed the rules so that you CAN have Density and Growth affect
RR> your figured stats for an advantage cost.
Must have been a recent change, or a really old one that got fixed along
the way.
mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net - - - - - Justice Krewe / Enigma Watch GM
- - - - - - http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html - - - - - -
... This one has spiwit. Spiwit? Dewwing-do. Bwavado.
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 05:58:09 -0700
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On 10/10/97 4:17 PM, happyelf! wrote:
<snip>
>but when they do. . look, it is becoming less and less
>viable that this whole issue revolves around something
>the pc's specifically asked for. What is the place of this
>sort of scenario in general?
It's place, generally, is only with players who, sometimes for a
change of pace, want to plumb their characters depths rather than
worry about who wins or loses the battle. Even then, it is only for
those who want to plumb tragedy, pain, guilt and loss. Definitely not
for everyone.
Perhaps background would explain.
I had a group for a short while which consisted primarily of some
drama students who wanted to do some roleplaying. An additional
student wanted to try some soulsearching roleplaying rather than
beat-up-the-badguy roleplaying, for a change of pace.
They gave me some general ideas of what they wanted to do. They wanted
things like, "How does Ultraman, who is obsessed with being a
respected, even adored, public figure, react to becoming a pariah,
where his former best fans spit on him, and it is fully deserved," or
"What could drive Superdude, the arrogant, egotistical show-off to the
very edge, and would he really kill himself?" In this particular
case, they decided to end the campaign on a massive tragedy of the
"antinomy" type. I arranged this by having their characters faced with
two planets, both of which they knew and had friends on, doomed to be
destroyed, and they could only save one.
One player decided that his character would absolutely refuse to
accept the situation. In the end, he went insane, deciding that the
other characters failed to recognize his delusional way out because
they wanted to kill a planet, and embarked on a life as a supervillain
whose goal was to kill the other player characters for their crime.
One player helped choose a planet to save, and then went to the other
planet and refused to leave. A third, the only player who planned on
staying on after our short campaign, followed the above "Will
Superdude, the generally shallow 'I'm great, you're not' superhero,
really kill himself?" idea to the end. He even had a "Superdude" fan,
who, if "Superdude" (I forget the character's name) killed himself
would inherit his powers and dedicate himself to being a "true hero,
not a loser like the first Superdude". In the end he went through a
catharsis that rewrote his psychological limitations as he became a
truly serious and actually humble hero, rather than a show off. The
fan watched this, and became dedicated to becoming "just like
Superdude, a real hero."
Basically, this only really works if the players want a game dedicated
to "plumbing depths and (what they call) 'real' roleplaying", rather
than the sort of thing that you (and, actually, I, usually) prefer. I
suspect that a large part of the reason why we are having this
discussion is that these players were probably better suited to a game
of "Vampire" than "Champions".
<snip>
>yes, nesecarily there are unlimited possiblities, if only
>at the extremes of the scenario. Otherwise,
>your aren't roleplaying, just shooting off dialogue.
Well, yes, even in my single extreme example above, they had all kinds
of roleplaying options. Saving both worlds was the only one they
didn't have.
I think we've reached the point where we basically agree. On the one
hand, there is a place (though maybe a rather weird one) for the
extreme, "you can't win" scenarios, that I very occasionally play and
you don't want to. Then, there is your method, which is generally
superior all around, for all but a very limited few games.
Filksinger
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 06:16:19 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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At 05:26 PM 10/10/97 -0500, Tim Haas wrote:
> Heromaker and all of it's data disks (ie: Eniemies, Dark Champions, etc)
>were all available at GENCON when I was there (the latest one), If you
>check out the Hero Games Homepage it will say (somewhere) where to order
>them from.
Last time I checked the Hero Games site, only HeroMaker itself was
available. The character disks once were on the list, but aren't now for
some reason.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 13:25:13 +0000
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
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> > Proud to be using Windows 95---oops. Wait a second while I
> > reinstall...
>
>
> Of course, to be an equal opportunity insulter, the Mac-ers have
> it good. At least they will be getting a real OS. The microsoft clones
> have to wiat around for a product that will give them even less control
> over their computer.
The sad thing is, I DO use Win95...
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Michael Surbrook\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 97 13:27:49
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Pushing
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On Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:10:32 -0400 (EDT), Michael Surbrook wrote:
>> Are partial Pushes acceptable? ex. A 10d6 EB pushed to only 11d6
>> (assume no Advantages). And, if so, is the extra END based off of only how
>> much was Pushed? ex.2. A 10d6 AP EB pushed to 11d6 AP EB. Does it only
>> cost 7 extra END?
>
>Yeah, that shounds about right. There should also be allowances made for
>'unlimited pushes', there the PC gets a huge amount of Active Points to
>tack onto his powers. Naturally,m these pushes should be used in real
>serious situations.
There's an example of this in the BBB - a brick who can massively push
his STR. The extra Str is purchased at x10 End
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 97 13:28:47
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
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On Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:43:23 -0700, Mann, Wade wrote:
>I am currently developing some software that might be released through
>Hero Games. I am trying to figure out the platforms that I should
>support.
>
>How many of you are using win 3.x, win95/nt, and/or Mac?
>
>Any information received would be appreciated.
OS/2 Warp 4
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 06:35:29 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Pushing
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At 08:22 PM 10/10/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> Here's some questions I have about Pushing, I'm looking for
>"official" rulings and also "how do *you* handle it" stuff.
> Which Powers are Push-able? Just Attack Powers? Are Movement
>Powers fair game? What about Teleportation? Would you allow a character to
>Push his Force Field? And how long would *that* last?
Anything that costs END is Pushable. Officially, I think it's only
Powers that *normally* cost END -- not Powers that normally don't but have
the "Costs END" Limitation, which I do allow to be Pushed.
That Pushed Force Field would, IMC, last the entire Phase.
> Are partial Pushes acceptable? ex. A 10d6 EB pushed to only 11d6
>(assume no Advantages). And, if so, is the extra END based off of only how
>much was Pushed? ex.2. A 10d6 AP EB pushed to 11d6 AP EB. Does it only
>cost 7 extra END?
Yes on all of this.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 15:14:07 +0000
Subject: Grey Areas
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I think it would be a good thing to identify some of the "grey
areas", areas where the vagueness of the official rules has an impact
upon the way someone runs his campaign. This is not an attempt to
reawaken old flamefests, however; I just want to understand where
these areas are.
The ones I can think of right now are:
--Linked (No debates, please!)
--Characteristics bought as Powers (with regard to Normal
Characteristic Maxima)
What are some of the other grey areas you can think of?
Guy
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:16:25 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Bright Futures...
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Hey all, haven't kept up with things for a couple weeks here and I obviously
fell behind. Well, I'm not going to try and catch up, but if I missed
something important I suppose someone would fill me in. I was just
wondering if anyone else has seen or heard of this Bright Futures put out by
Hero Plus and what opinions on it might be before I order it. I'd like to
get my hands on Star Hero, anyone know if that is possible? Well, take it
easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
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