Week Ending October 11, 1997
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 11:19:22 +1000
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Subject: Re: Mind Control/Telepathy via TV?
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At 06:43 AM 10/3/97 -0400, you wrote:
>jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 10/3/97 12:16 AM
>
>>At 01:16 PM 10/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>"j" == jonesmj <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> writes:
>"r" == Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes:
>
>j> why not a 'hero'???
>
>r>Yup, it is really heroic to turn an entire city into one's personal,
>r>mindless zombies.
>
>j>take a look at mr wong's supercop. . . . she's a hero, but frankly i
>seen
>j>any nondemocratic nation as a country of zombies(and that includes big
>j>lumps of america AND australia). . . . .
>
>OK, it's bad enough I find myself in agreement with jones in principal,
>but
>I can't let this one slide. Most Democratic nations are a bunch of
>mindless
>zombies too. A few guys with the bucks and control of the media define
>"democracy" in most of the world. Yes, I'm a cynic.
>
like i said 'big lumps of american AND australia' but i would suggest that those 'lumps' simply aren't expressing democratic rights, hence they aren't democratic... giving people with money control over governments actions (ne1 in aus will know of a mister packer?) isn't democratic. . . . but i believe this is a conversation for another list? Unless i start useing heaps of examples of my favorite npc (captain democracy- imagine 'the champ' but obbsessed with calling votes over everything as opposed to welfare)
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 11:28:21 +1000
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Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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At 07:34 AM 10/3/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>Ever hear of "Flight of the Valkyries", the old CHAMPIONS module
>>where the only way to "win" was to let the Holocaust happen? Brrrr.
>
> Which is not all that far off the classic Star Trek episode "The City on
>the Edge of Forever," where the heroic *goal* was to *make sure* it
>happened.
here's the problem- in star treck it's alright to give people 'one option' plots (you MUST do this or all history will change for the worse, ect) but in an rpg, it's patently unfair to be so heavy-handed. .. but where is the line drawn? i can't think of any 'borderline' examples. . .
>---
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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>
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 12:12:58 +1000
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Subject: Re: GMing Question #2
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At 03:38 AM 10/3/97 -0700, you wrote:
>jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>>
>> At 10:43 AM 10/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
>> >Nez wrote some comments about moral dilemmas being interesting role-playing
>> >opportunities. That's one perspective that I partially agree with.
>> >However, they could also be viewed as 'no-win' situations. I suggest using
>> >these sparingly if you're not sure how your players and/or their characters
>> >would react.
>>
>> it's only no-win if the gm let's it be ... i'd say a moral dillema is like any good >puzzle- the way out should NOY be just what the gm has planned. . but what the pc's >throw together. .
>
> This brings me to my other question (which is why I specified that
> the last one was #1):
>
>How often do you craft a scenario with certain assumptions BASED ON
>gaming experience with certain players/characters, just to have the
>players completely out of the blue flabbergast you with a totally
>unexpected direction?
>
ok, how's this:
The pc's try to take over a city. I thhink i've mentioned this before, but basically the pc's decided to rule the island of manhattan and surrounding 'territory' for it's own good. This was a psudo-historical setting in which the balance of econimic power was centered on america, but only because of it's superhuman population.
basically the government- the entire populace, actually, was becoming rather dependant on superheros. . . whatever the trouble, there would be a superhero there to solve it. .
so the players up and staged a coup. .. . i think one of them faked an earthquake- it was marvelous to see basically 4-color characters reveal a machiavellian side which was barely hinted at before. .. many twists and betrayals ensued, including the team brick
(classic dumb pc/hack and slash player) excersising a brilliant master stroke to take control of the city. .. .
All this came as a complete suprise to me, although apparently they planned out the original coup over a weekend between games, when i suggested that if their pc's didn't like the crime problems in the city, they should try to make a real differnece. . ..
From: Strmbrngr2@aol.com
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 23:00:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: character sheets
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I'm sorry my request wasn't clear, but I was wondering where I could find
champions 4th ed. blank character sheets to down load and print out. If
someone could help me I would be forever in their dept.
thanks.
strmbrngr2
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 23:23:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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On Sat, 4 Oct 1997, Jim Dickinson wrote:
>
> >I think I would find such a plot pretty offensive. Such heavy handed use
> >of one's personal beliefs should be avoided in a game.
>
> This discussion seems like it's getting pretty silly to me.
Why? I simply said I wouldn't care for his plot/storyline.
> There are
> OFTEN, but not always, personal beliefs and "agendas" buried in plotlines of
> games, movies, TV Shows, and books. I found it amusing to a degree that
> Leonard Nemoy's Star Trek movie was an overglorified "Save the Wales"
> plotline, and then again, I also found it something I was rolling my eyes
> over. But am I "offended?" Naw.
I wasn't offended over that movie either, although I do agree it is a bit
much.
> Perhaps my personal beliefs clash with the notion that any sort of magic
> could be used "benevolently" because Magic, perhaps to me, is inherently
> evil, because perhaps my Christian beliefs are very clear on that. I should
> be offended then by the hidden "devilish" agenda of nearly ANY fantasy game
> I might join (and actually many Champions games) because supposedly Magic is
> presented as being a "good" power (aka White Magic).
For the record, I consider myself a Christian as well, and no, I'm not
offended by the use of magic in games. I'm smart enough to know where to
draw the line between fantasy and reality.
> And we won't even get into SPAWN...you know...the "good guy" from Hell.
Yeah, well I don't read Spawn. Although there are some interesting ideas
there.
> >In my opinion, a
> >RPG is there to create a fun environment for everyone, not to push
> >anyone's beliefs on others.
>
> I think it is interesting when people feel like beliefs are being "pushed"
> on them from within a passive plotline. Players should be playing a ROLE,
> and should be PLAYING out that role the way the PC would react, etc, etc.
> It's not like the GM came out and said, "OK, in my game, here is the what
> you need to accept as truth if you want to play..."
Except that even in the confines of a game there may come subject matter
that people may not want to deal with even 'in character'. There was a
pretty big discussion about this on another list I am on, and there result
was a split. Some felt that people should seperate game events from real
events, others felt that the emotional impact of certain events (such as
child abuse and rape) may be such that they wouldn't (or couldn't) deal
with such events in a game situation.
I have been in a game where one player asked the another (and the GM) to
can a plotline becuase she didn't like the way it was headed (as a person,
not as her character).
> >Many years ago a local GM< set up a plot where the party went back in time
> >to WWII. Along the way, the team ended up in England, and were asked to
> >travel to Germany and try and kill Hitler. The game stopped right
> >there and dissolved into an hours long argument over whether or not it was
> >right to go and do such a thing.
>
> I think that this is sad. Now, I wasn't there, so maybe there are some
> details that you left out, but I personally would have found this plot
> particularly intriguing. It would have likely degenerated into heated
> discussion...but it would have likely been "in character" as we role-play
> out the possibilities.
Well, it was something like 10 years ago. And any 'in-character'
discussion degenerated into an out of character debate.
> >I ended up telling the GM that I would
> >be leaving the game until the adventure was over, and the reaction for
> >other players was strong enough that the idea was scrapped and the
> >sequence ended quickly.
>
> You see, here you and I are very different.
And is this wrong?
> The only time in memory that I
> have ever told the GM I would be bowing out of a game until things changes
> was a loooong time ago when an inexperienced GM went on a power trip and
> created a umpteen-thousand point villain that could not be stopped. We
> tried everything we could think of to stop this thing, but everything ended
> up comkpletely futile. After a full 4 hours of game time trying everything
> we could possibly think of, I was exhausted and exasperated, and I told the
> GM I wasn't going to play because it was very clear there was no way to
> defeat, or even thwart, this villain in any way. The villain would be free
> to do as he pleased, so there was no point in bothering to defeat him. The
> GM agreed that he had tried to build a villain that could not be stopped,
> and apologized for creating the "no win" scenario. And the game ended.
Yeah, well I'd bow out of such a game as well.
> > (I also thought the entire WWII situation was
> >being presented to light-hearted and white-washed, but that's just me.)
>
> I agree, though, that if the game is to take a serious tone such as the
> possible prevention of the loss of millions of lives, that the game should
> not be light-hearted. But it would be fascinating to try to simulate this
> possibility of putting super-heroes in the position to slay this greatly
> evil man. Wow, it would be so hard to argue against it -- saying that this
> would clearly change the timeline, and disrupt the future as we know
> it...yadda, yadda...
My arguemnt was simple: Where do we stop?
We know that Hitler killed 6 million Jews, Slavs, gypsys and other
'undesireables' so we kkill him. Then, since that was a justifiable act
(he is EVIL after all) we should go kill Stalin (because he will kill 20
million people in his purges). Do we then set our sights on Ho Chi Min,
Mao Tse Tung, J Edgar Hoover? If you are going to kill one man for the
greater good of all mankind, might as well start capping them all. Hell,
it's 1942, we can bag some of these people in infancy or their youth (like
Lee Harvey Oswald etc).
At this point you are no longer playing superheroes. The characters have
now set themselves up as Judge, Jury and Executioner, with the rational of
'the greater good' and 40 years of history as their moral standard. But,
who are we (ie the PC) to make such judgements?
One man's evil villian might well be another's heroic ideal...
> >I think a GM should try and be neutral in his presentation of adventures,
> >or, at least, be aware of what will and will not go over well with his
> >PCs. The main idea is for people to enjoy themselves, not to push any one
> >ideaology.
>
> GMs aren't going for Nelson Ratings. But in a way, I agree with you.
Yeah, but GMing for an empty room sure ain't much fun either.
> However, Christopher was clearly GMing for others that likely felt that evil
> spirits and abortions might be related somehow...enough that none of his
> players got up and walked out of the game, eh?
I guess so, but, then, I'm not in that game.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 23:28:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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On Sat, 4 Oct 1997, Christopher Taylor wrote:
> >> I DO have a moral agenda in my games, Im always trying to get the players to
> >> be better people, Im a Christian and that comes through in my games, but no
> >> one has complained yet. I even did a big game on how the abortions at the
> >> local hospital were summoning a spirit of evil, heh heh nuff said :)
> >
> >I think I would find such a plot pretty offensive. Such heavy handed use
> >of one's personal beliefs should be avoided in a game.
>
> Yeah I was misleading in that post. The problem was the creature, not the
> abortions neccessarily. It was simply trapped under where the hospital was
> hundreds of years ago by a shaman, and was set free by the deaths at the
> hospital. It wouldnt have shown up so soon if there hadnt been the
> abortions the increasing the numbers by so much.
Hmmm... yeah, this isn't quite so extreme as you first made it out. I
still don't think I'd care for the plot idea much (and yes, this is
something I have strong personal feelings about, for various reasons).
> >I mena, are you going to tel me that in your world it would be wrong for a
> >superhero to try and stop the anit-abortion activitsts who feel it is
> proper to >blow up clinics and shoot doctors?
>
> Tisk tisk :) Thats moral reductionism, I wasnt trying to make them anti
> abortion, I was just using a real world issue to create a nice moral dilemma.
> Consider the other plot I used where in an inner city Detroit hospital, they
> were selling organs from live donors (like a kidney, part of a liver, etc),
> and using the proceeds to stay open and keep treating the people too poor to
> pay...and paying the donors a grand a pop also. The heroes had to decide if
> they wanted to stop this process and close the hospital, or let it go on...
Actually, this is a prety cool plot line. Very reminiscent of the sort of
things I 'd like to try in my cyberpunk game.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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From: "Jim Dickinson" <champion@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 21:02:08 -0700
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>
>My arguemnt was simple: Where do we stop?
>
>We know that Hitler killed 6 million Jews, Slavs, gypsys and other
>'undesireables' so we kkill him. Then, since that was a justifiable act
>(he is EVIL after all) we should go kill Stalin (because he will kill 20
>million people in his purges). Do we then set our sights on Ho Chi Min,
>Mao Tse Tung, J Edgar Hoover? If you are going to kill one man for the
>greater good of all mankind, might as well start capping them all. Hell,
>it's 1942, we can bag some of these people in infancy or their youth (like
>Lee Harvey Oswald etc).
I have always felt that Comic book games were really meant more for "moral
battles" over physical battles because that seemed to be where heroes were:
Super Human with Human Morality. Some choose the path of light. Others
choose darkness. And so the battle begins.
I think it would be a great exploration of "Where the characters really are"
on the "Morality Continuum" with a story like that. I think a great way to
stage it is to have a scientist (or something like that) find a way to
travel in time to commit the "Save the World Assassinations" and the PC
group finds out. They learn who the target is and then have to make the
moral decision: Do we stop this guy? Or do we let him do it? Or do we help
him?
As a GM of this game, I would be of the opinion that "It would be VERY VERY
bad to kill Hitler" because of the changes in the timeline that would
result, etc. Is this offensive to anyone? Does it sound like I have a
Supremesist Agenda?
On the other hand, I would personally have a struggle with the decision if
it were ever up to me to strangle little Adolf in the crib or let the
monster grow up...
And that's what the game is all about...at least sometimes (IMO).
Other times, it's just about "Clobberin' Time!" ;-)
>
>At this point you are no longer playing superheroes. The characters have
>now set themselves up as Judge, Jury and Executioner, with the rational of
>'the greater good' and 40 years of history as their moral standard. But,
>who are we (ie the PC) to make such judgements?
>
>One man's evil villian might well be another's heroic ideal...
>
>> >I think a GM should try and be neutral in his presentation of
adventures,
>> >or, at least, be aware of what will and will not go over well with his
>> >PCs. The main idea is for people to enjoy themselves, not to push any
one
>> >ideaology.
>>
>> GMs aren't going for Nelson Ratings. But in a way, I agree with you.
>
>Yeah, but GMing for an empty room sure ain't much fun either.
>
>> However, Christopher was clearly GMing for others that likely felt that
evil
>> spirits and abortions might be related somehow...enough that none of his
>> players got up and walked out of the game, eh?
>
>I guess so, but, then, I'm not in that game.
>
>***************************************************************************
>* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
>* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
>* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
>* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
>* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
>* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
>***************************************************************************
>
>
From: DocWeird@aol.com
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 04:34:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: GM question #1 Morality in gaming
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Uncle Ben / Peter Parker said it best: " With great power comes great
responsibility."
Characters have the power to alter the world: it the morals of the
individual superbeing that cause them to be Heroes or Villans.
As players , and as GM's we may not believe exactly the same as the
character that we are playing.
If I'm not mistaken, that's why it's called a Role-Playing game..
Just 2 more cents in the
pool
Doc
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 07:32:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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On Sat, 4 Oct 1997, Jim Dickinson wrote:
> >
> >My arguement was simple: Where do we stop?
> >
> >We know that Hitler killed 6 million Jews, Slavs, gypsys and other
> >'undesireables' so we kill him. Then, since that was a justifiable act
> >(he is EVIL after all) we should go kill Stalin (because he will kill 20
> >million people in his purges). Do we then set our sights on Ho Chi Min,
> >Mao Tse Tung, J Edgar Hoover? If you are going to kill one man for the
> >greater good of all mankind, might as well start capping them all. Hell,
> >it's 1942, we can bag some of these people in infancy or their youth (like
> >Lee Harvey Oswald etc).
>
> I have always felt that Comic book games were really meant more for "moral
> battles" over physical battles because that seemed to be where heroes were:
> Super Human with Human Morality. Some choose the path of light. Others
> choose darkness. And so the battle begins.
>
> I think it would be a great exploration of "Where the characters really are"
> on the "Morality Continuum" with a story like that. I think a great way to
> stage it is to have a scientist (or something like that) find a way to
> travel in time to commit the "Save the World Assassinations" and the PC
> group finds out. They learn who the target is and then have to make the
> moral decision: Do we stop this guy? Or do we let him do it? Or do we help
> him?
>
> As a GM of this game, I would be of the opinion that "It would be VERY VERY
> bad to kill Hitler" because of the changes in the timeline that would
> result, etc. Is this offensive to anyone? Does it sound like I have a
> Supremesist Agenda?
No. Going back in time and killing anyone could have profound changes on
the world of the future (especially in a comic universe). Who knows? You
may have just eliminated your own existance.
> On the other hand, I would personally have a struggle with the decision if
> it were ever up to me to strangle little Adolf in the crib or let the
> monster grow up...
There is a time/dimensional travel novel where our hero finds himself
walking along a country road. He stops to ask a young boy where he is and
realizses (in the course of conversation) that the child is (in fact)
Adolf Hitler. He stands ther and struggles with this fact, but finally
decides to let the child live. Why? Because he decides he has no right
to judge the boy at this age, he cannot know for certain that young Adolf
will go and comit his great crimes (at least not in *this* universe/time).
The boy also has done nothing wrong (yet) and (to him) it seems wrong to
punish him for something he *might* do. Of course, he does have to deal
with the fact that he may be wrong...
> And that's what the game is all about...at least sometimes (IMO).
>
> Other times, it's just about "Clobberin' Time!" ;-)
I guess I prefer a more escapist view in my games, where the action is
more straightforward and the deep philisophical discussions take a
backseat to rip-roaring adventure. But then, to each his own...
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 05:53:08 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 07:32 AM 10/5/97 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>> As a GM of this game, I would be of the opinion that "It would be VERY VERY
>> bad to kill Hitler" because of the changes in the timeline that would
>> result, etc. Is this offensive to anyone? Does it sound like I have a
>> Supremesist Agenda?
>
>No. Going back in time and killing anyone could have profound changes on
>the world of the future (especially in a comic universe). Who knows? You
>may have just eliminated your own existance.
>
>> On the other hand, I would personally have a struggle with the decision if
>> it were ever up to me to strangle little Adolf in the crib or let the
>> monster grow up...
>
>There is a time/dimensional travel novel where our hero finds himself
>walking along a country road. He stops to ask a young boy where he is and
>realizses (in the course of conversation) that the child is (in fact)
>Adolf Hitler. He stands ther and struggles with this fact, but finally
>decides to let the child live. Why? Because he decides he has no right
>to judge the boy at this age, he cannot know for certain that young Adolf
>will go and comit his great crimes (at least not in *this* universe/time).
>The boy also has done nothing wrong (yet) and (to him) it seems wrong to
>punish him for something he *might* do. Of course, he does have to deal
>with the fact that he may be wrong...
And nobody's even brought up (at least directly, so far) the possibility
that without Hitler in place, the Nazi Party might have come up led by
someone even more vicious -- and with enough intelligence to actually win
WWII.
Hm... now there's an interesting plotline. PCs go back and kill Hitler
as a child, then return to find the world ruled by a Nazi regime. Then
they have to go back and prevent themselves from killing Hitler.
>I guess I prefer a more escapist view in my games, where the action is
>more straightforward and the deep philisophical discussions take a
>backseat to rip-roaring adventure. But then, to each his own...
I tend toward that myself, but I like to sneak in little "Star
Trek"/"Twilight Zone" morality plays every so often.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: GM question #1
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 15:04:35 GMT
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On Sun, 05 Oct 1997 05:53:08 -0700, you wrote:
> And nobody's even brought up (at least directly, so far) the possibility
>that without Hitler in place, the Nazi Party might have come up led by
>someone even more vicious -- and with enough intelligence to actually win
>WWII.
In the "Valkyrie" scenario mentioned before, that's exactly what
happens. A scientist builds a time machine and sends a group of hand
picked supers back to kill Hitler. They do it, but the "present"
changes into a totalitarian dominated world because of his death. The
PC heroes have to go back in time to ---prevent--- Hitler's death.
> Hm... now there's an interesting plotline. PCs go back and kill Hitler
>as a child, then return to find the world ruled by a Nazi regime. Then
>they have to go back and prevent themselves from killing Hitler.
See above. Try and find that "Valkyrie" scenario if you are
interested. It lists a time line after Hitler's death that's plausible
all the way up to the present day.
John Lansford
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 23:35:43 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Judge, Jury and Executioner (was Re: GM question #1)
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Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Sun, 5 Oct 1997, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> > At this point you are no longer playing superheroes. The characters have
>> > now set themselves up as Judge, Jury and Executioner, with the rational of
>> > 'the greater good' and 40 years of history as their moral standard. But,
>> > who are we (ie the PC) to make such judgements?
>>
>> I don't know. I've seen PC's who believe they are Judge, Jury,
>> and Executioner.
>
>Yeah, same here.
I've been thinking of running a plot where the vigilante PC meets up
with a vigilante who has the same motives as he does. I want to elicite
(sp?) a roleplaying response from the guy, but he may just decide that the
other vig is simply a bad guy.
>
>ANd then ther was the villain team of the same name. Jury even had
>duplication (12 duplicates).
>
Are these guys a published team (comics or otherwise) of just the
creation of a devious mind?
Let's see... give Jury Enraged or Berserk and he's Twelve Angry Men.
If Judge is crooked, he could have Vulnerability: 2x Effect from Bribes.
Seriously, though, could you give more specifics on these characters?
- Jerry
X-Sender: filkhero@pop.netaddress.com (Unverified)
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 12:36:15 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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At 01:10 PM 9/28/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>
>But molten lava/core of the earth and arctic conditions/surface of an
>atmosphereless planet *aren't* "minor" environmental effects. I could (if I
>bothered) come up with SFX of Desolid to allow me to survive in these
>environments. I just beleive that characters shouldn't get that for free.
>Pay for the Life Support (even if it *is* Linked to the Desolid).
All of this discussion is interesting, but it still doesn't solve the
original problem. Consider two villains. Both have an RKA Radius Area
Effect. One is defined as a "heat field", the other "the ground turns into
lava".
By the arguments I have been hearing, the guy with "ground is lava" gets
Affects Desolidified for free. Either that, or you have to explain exactly
why regular lava does affect de solidified, but the villains lava doesn't.
If you buy enough of the proper defense, you gain effective immunity to
environmental effects. A character with a 45 Energy Defense is immune to
arctic winter, _except breathing_, because breathing bypasses the defense.
I think that desolidification deserves a similar consideration- the lava
can't burn you, but _don't breathe_.
Filksinger
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 14:49:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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> And nobody's even brought up (at least directly, so far) the possibility
> that without Hitler in place, the Nazi Party might have come up led by
> someone even more vicious -- and with enough intelligence to actually win
> WWII.
> Hm... now there's an interesting plotline. PCs go back and kill Hitler
> as a child, then return to find the world ruled by a Nazi regime. Then
> they have to go back and prevent themselves from killing Hitler.
Nor is this a terribly unlikly scenario idea. Hitler himself often ruled
by keeping all the people blow him in direcet competion with each other,
so no one trusted anyone else enough to try for a coup. This made for a
very inefficient government. The fact Hitler was a poor general who
insisted on meddling in the running of the military also had a big impact
on the war.
>
> >I guess I prefer a more escapist view in my games, where the action is
> >more straightforward and the deep philisophical discussions take a
> >backseat to rip-roaring adventure. But then, to each his own...
True. I personally prefer to run games that have more of a Hong Kong
action feel. The usual trouble with this is keeping the action moving
without getting bogged down in rules discussions, but it's been some time
since this was a real problem in one of my games.
TokyoMark
X-Sender: filkhero@pop.netaddress.com (Unverified)
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 13:44:29 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: In defense of Shape Shift (was: CHAR: The Saint)
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At 11:19 AM 9/30/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote:
>> > I'd say, basically, no chance of being found out. No one is going
>> >to sense out the disguise with a lucky PER roll, which the skill can
>> >allow.
>> >
>> Unfortunately, so does Shapeshift. In order to imitate particular people
>> with Shapeshift, you need Disguise skill. If you fail your roll, the
>> disguise just wasn't good enough, and if the person makes their PER roll,
>> then the disguise wasn't good enough. Shapeshift doesn't change this.
>>
>> Filksinger
>>
>
>I usually agree with you, Filk, but I've got to argue with you now. If Shape
>Shift is as suceptable to being found out as disguise, then why on Earth is
>it worth 30pts (20pts + 0 END (+1/2)).
As you point out later in your post, Disguise that cannot be discovered is
_more_ expensive than the Shapeshift you describe. Therefore, your
Shapeshift, if it allows perfect disguises without Disguise, is a cheaper
way of imitating the skill.
>The description for Shape Shift says
>that a successful disguise roll lets the shape shifter become an "instant
>duplicate" of someone specific. To my mind, duplicate means exactly the same
>appearance.
Agreed. That's what it should do. However, the BBB says that the Disguise
skill is necessary.
>But let's assume your inerpretation is correct for a moment. Miss Trick of
>the Sisterhood of Evil Metahumans can instantly take on the appearance of
>any human of her approximate size. She looks exactly the same, so much so
>that no one can tell the difference.
>
>Shape Shift - humanoids 20pts, 0 END (+1/2) 30pts
>
>Instant Change - 10pts
>
>Char - +24 COM 12pts, Linked to Shape Shift (-1/2) 8pts
>
>So far so good, but she needs a high disguise skill to make sure that no one
>could tell that she is the person she is impersonating. How high? Let's
>assume that the highest perception roll that anyone is likely to have is
>a 14-. This means that someone who looks at her could theoretically succeed
>his perception roll by 11 points. Therefore, Miss Trick must have a high
>enough disguise roll such that she will succeed by at least 11 points.
>An 18 + 11 = 29- roll. This will cost her 3 + (18 * 2) = 39pts!
>
>Skill: Disguise - 11- based, +18 levels 39pts, 29- Roll
>
>In other words, using your interpretation, Miss Trick must spend more points
>on her disguise skill than she does on her Shape Shift power. She must also
>have the disguise skill at a superhuman level before she can fully use her
>power. She's already spent 87pts on her powers/skills, and she hasn't even
>bought her mimicry and acting skills yet!
>
>Don't you think this is a wee bit ridiculous?
>
Yes. However, that is what the rules _said_. I haven't taken this position
based upon what I think is reasonable, but only what is in the rules. I
hope the following suggestions help.
I have a solution for you. It shows why the Shapeshift power, used only to
imitate people, is more expensive than Disguise. It also makes Disguise,
when used with Shapechange, much cheaper.
To begin with, Shapeshift is expensive because of all the things it can do
that Disguise cannot. Make you six inches taller than normal. Change your
hair length, color, and facial features by an enormous degree, without
makeup or prosthesis. Copy someone without preparation. Special features
are unremovable. ("This man is a fraud! This nose is a fake! (Pause) Uh,
just a moment...I swear, I saw him without it a moment ago...No, wait, I
can prove it! Let go of me! I'm not mad!" Door slams, guests gossip.)
Change gender, well enough to fool a strip search. (Change gender for other
purposes should probably not be discussed here.)
The second use is based upon my poor memory. I cannot find my BBB, as I
just moved, so I have to do this based upon memory.
In the BBB, it states that you need Disguise to use Shapeshift to copy a
person. I don't believe it says that you need to roll. If it does, assume a
base roll is sufficient for a perfect copy.
If this is too much, consider that you get a +1-3 for having the proper
makeup and other tools. How much of a bonus do you get for Shapechange? +5?
More? That takes care of part of the problem.
Hope this helps clarify my position, and soften it at the same time.
Filksinger
X-Sender: filkhero@pop.netaddress.com (Unverified)
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 13:48:45 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Vehicles and bases
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At 06:19 AM 9/28/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>>In fact, If I chose to replace a follower via a quest, I think that I
>>would make a special award of experience to be used to create a
>>replacement follower, and leave the dead follower on the base character's
>>sheet forever as a reminder.
>
> This is not unreasonable.
Except, perhaps, in the case of entire agencies being your followers.
Consider someone with an army of followers, who not only has to pay points
to replace them, but who dramatically increases the size of their army to
boot just to replace one follower. Then, keep track of every dead follower
on the sheet is a bit unreasonable, if you have 1024 of them to begin with.
Filksinger
X-Sender: filkhero@pop.netaddress.com
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 14:58:00 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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At 11:27 PM 10/2/97 GMT, John Lansford wrote:
>
>In my campaign there is a local anti-hero who is going around killing
>drug lords. His powers allow him to find out who's a dealer, and he
>executes them on the spot. Now, some of these people aren't exactly
>the stereotypical drug dealer; one was a high level politician in the
>city. The heroes have found out the connecting link between the
>killings (they were all drug lords) and now have a major morality
>problem.
>
>Do they hunt and attempt to capture this anti-hero, or do they do
>nothing? Right now the team leader feels he should be brought to
>justice, even though he's doing the city a lot of good (drug related
>crimes have fallen drastically).
>
>However, the hero group has two aliens in it who believe what he is
>doing is quite acceptable and he should be lauded for his actions. It
>will be interesting to see how this resolves.
>
You could also bring in Libertarian views, and see how they resolve this.
Since libertarians believe that drugs should be legal, are these drug lords
criminals or not? Should they be brought in? Do they use force (which is
not allowed in Libertarianism) to support their drug empire, and if they
do, is it strictly defensive against others of their ilk (allowed by
Libertarianism)?
Filksinger
X-Sender: filkhero@pop.netaddress.com
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 16:00:47 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: CHAR: Mobile Infantry Trooper
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At 08:14 PM 9/28/97 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote:
<snip>
>Yes. I'll point out that in the book, the only way to gain a vote in
>government was military service
<snip>
Not quite. While the book appears to say this, and many people have claimed
this over the years, a _very_ close examination of the book shows this to
be incorrect. Heinlein himself said it was wrong many times, as well.
What was required was to enter into Federal Service, which sent you into
unpleasant and dangerous jobs, but is only combat positions 5% of the time.
Federal Service was intended to include a considerable number of
nonmilitary, non-combatant jobs. Heinlein stated that this number was 95%
of the whole, that all of the military forces in _Starship Troopers_
consisted solely of combat positions. This fits with what is said in the
book, that 95% of "Federal Service" is non-combat, and that anyone in a
military should be in combat positions, no exceptions.
Federal Service was intended as a unique poll tax, and they were required
to allow _anyone_ in, no matter what, unless they had been thrown out or
left previously. It was not necessarily military (though _they_ decided
what service you would get), nor, unlike France, Switzerland, or Israel,
was it mandatory.
Filksinger
X-Sender: filkhero@pop.netaddress.com
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 16:13:52 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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At 11:28 AM 10/5/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>
>
>here's the problem- in star treck it's alright to give people 'one option'
plots (you MUST do this or all history will change for the worse, ect) but
in an rpg, it's patently unfair to be so heavy-handed. .. but where is the
line drawn? i can't think of any 'borderline' examples. . .
I don't think I would play in your games. They are too limiting in their
scenarios.
In this case, you are declaring that it is improper in a RPG to play out
the greatest of all human tragedies- antimony.
Filksinger
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 19:38:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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On Sun, 5 Oct 1997, Tokyo Mark wrote:
> > >I guess I prefer a more escapist view in my games, where the action is
> > >more straightforward and the deep philisophical discussions take a
> > >backseat to rip-roaring adventure. But then, to each his own...
>
> True. I personally prefer to run games that have more of a Hong Kong
> action feel. The usual trouble with this is keeping the action moving
> without getting bogged down in rules discussions, but it's been some time
> since this was a real problem in one of my games.
What with the publication of Feng Shi and my current addiction to HK
cinema, the same goes for me. Of course, anyone who watches anough HK
flics will realize that you can shovel in all the angst and moral lessons
you want... just add sufficent bullets.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 05 Oct 1997 21:10:29 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
F> By the arguments I have been hearing, the guy with "ground is lava" gets
F> Affects Desolidified for free. Either that, or you have to explain exactly
F> why regular lava does affect de solidified, but the villains lava doesn't.
Wrong; I never said that. What I said is that the *environmental* effects
- -- the secondary effects if you would -- of those things can still harm a
desolidified character if he does not have Life Support vs. extreme heat.
Lava will not burn a desolidified character, but the intense heat could
take him down if he is exposed to it for too long -- assuming that it is
"real" lava and the attacks are bought as such instead of just short-lived
"jets" -- just as it could anyone else.
F> If you buy enough of the proper defense, you gain effective immunity to
F> environmental effects. A character with a 45 Energy Defense is immune to
F> arctic winter,
While buying lots of Energy Defense may protect one from the *damage*
caused by some forms of bitter-cold attacks, it will not keep one warm, it
will not prevent hypothermia, it will not prevent freezing to death due to
prolonged exposure to such conditions.
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From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: WWII plots (was: Re: GM question #1)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 21:17:05 -0400 (EDT)
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>
> so no one trusted anyone else enough to try for a coup. This made for a
> very inefficient government. The fact Hitler was a poor general who
> insisted on meddling in the running of the military also had a big impact
> on the war.
>
Which leads to a game-universe possible situation that perhaps the
Nazi's _did_ win WWII, until some time-traveling resistance fighters
killed their leader and replaced him with a madman with a funny
mustache. Then, the PC's discover a plot by some "mysterious
time travlers" to "put Hitler into power" and go back and try to
*stop* it......
Daniel Pawtowski
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 21:15:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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> My arguemnt was simple: Where do we stop?
That's part of the whole scenario -- part of the whole moral
quandary.
> We know that Hitler killed 6 million Jews, Slavs, gypsys and other
> 'undesireables' so we kkill him. Then, since that was a justifiable act
> (he is EVIL after all) we should go kill Stalin (because he will kill 20
> million people in his purges). Do we then set our sights on Ho Chi Min,
> Mao Tse Tung, J Edgar Hoover? If you are going to kill one man for the
> greater good of all mankind, might as well start capping them all. Hell,
> it's 1942, we can bag some of these people in infancy or their youth (like
> Lee Harvey Oswald etc).
This is a wonderful point. What about going further? Lets go
back to the time of Ferdinand and Isabella and take out Carninal
Torquemada. He's been responsible for an awful lot of destruction. And
which pope called the first crusade? Gotta get him too. For that matter,
they should take out Columbus' ship on the way to the new world -- stop
the genocied of the American Indian peoples. At the same time, maybe the
Aztec empire should be destroyed -- they practice human sacrafice, you
know. And how about . . .
As you can see, I can go on and on. But the point is, why just
save the interests of one segment of society, one interest group, if you
will.
I have a favorite character who is an American Indian spiritualist
and he would jump at the chance to travel back in time to throw back the
Europeans.
This really becomes a plot line for the characters to perhaps stop
a vengeful and driven NPC (of PC) from trying to massively alter history.
> At this point you are no longer playing superheroes. The characters have
> now set themselves up as Judge, Jury and Executioner, with the rational of
> 'the greater good' and 40 years of history as their moral standard. But,
> who are we (ie the PC) to make such judgements?
I don't know. I've seen PC's who believe they are Judge, Jury,
and Executioner.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 21:19:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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> As a GM of this game, I would be of the opinion that "It would be VERY VERY
> bad to kill Hitler" because of the changes in the timeline that would
> result, etc. Is this offensive to anyone? Does it sound like I have a
> Supremesist Agenda?
No. There is the possibility that, in the abscence of Hitler, a
greater evil arises that wins WW2 against the Allies.
> On the other hand, I would personally have a struggle with the decision if
> it were ever up to me to strangle little Adolf in the crib or let the
> monster grow up...
Then there's always the theory that, should a change be made to
history, the time stream will shift back into position and provide a
substitute -- nothing changes except the Nazis are crying, "Heil,
Hetzler!"
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 22:34:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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On Sun, 5 Oct 1997, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>
> > My arguemnt was simple: Where do we stop?
>
> That's part of the whole scenario -- part of the whole moral
> quandary.
And it caused such heated debate and stress that the GM, who was trying to
entertain people not educate them, dumped the plot.
> > We know that Hitler killed 6 million Jews, Slavs, gypsys and other
> > 'undesireables' so we kkill him. Then, since that was a justifiable act
> > (he is EVIL after all) we should go kill Stalin (because he will kill 20
> > million people in his purges). Do we then set our sights on Ho Chi Min,
> > Mao Tse Tung, J Edgar Hoover? If you are going to kill one man for the
> > greater good of all mankind, might as well start capping them all. Hell,
> > it's 1942, we can bag some of these people in infancy or their youth (like
> > Lee Harvey Oswald etc).
>
> This is a wonderful point. What about going further? Lets go
> back to the time of Ferdinand and Isabella and take out Carninal
> Torquemada. He's been responsible for an awful lot of destruction. And
> which pope called the first crusade? Gotta get him too. For that matter,
> they should take out Columbus' ship on the way to the new world -- stop
> the genocied of the American Indian peoples. At the same time, maybe the
> Aztec empire should be destroyed -- they practice human sacrafice, you
> know. And how about . . .
There is a SF story where a man perfects a time-travel device and goes
about eliminating every violent in human society. By the time he's done,
human live a pastoral vegitartian existance and don't have enough anger
within them to swat a fly. Naturally, they get annihilated by some
invading alien race.
> As you can see, I can go on and on. But the point is, why just
> save the interests of one segment of society, one interest group, if you
> will.
>
> I have a favorite character who is an American Indian spiritualist
> and he would jump at the chance to travel back in time to throw back the
> Europeans.
I think I brought this point up as well. Hitler kills 6 million people,
Stalin kills 20 million. From 1865 to about 1885, the US waged total war
vs the Indian with the elimination of the Indian people the desired out
come. Since we traveled back to 1942, we gonna go back to 1875 and start
killing US Army generals? There was also the "He who is without sin..."
angle there.
> This really becomes a plot line for the characters to perhaps stop
> a vengeful and driven NPC (of PC) from trying to massively alter history.
Which could be quite interesting. I just had trouble with the idea of
doing it as a scenario.
> > At this point you are no longer playing superheroes. The characters have
> > now set themselves up as Judge, Jury and Executioner, with the rational of
> > 'the greater good' and 40 years of history as their moral standard. But,
> > who are we (ie the PC) to make such judgements?
>
> I don't know. I've seen PC's who believe they are Judge, Jury,
> and Executioner.
Yeah, same here.
ANd then ther was the villain team of the same name. Jury even had
duplication (12 duplicates).
***************************************************************************
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* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 23:10:11 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 10:34 PM 10/5/97 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>I think I brought this point up as well. Hitler kills 6 million people,
>Stalin kills 20 million. From 1865 to about 1885, the US waged total war
>vs the Indian with the elimination of the Indian people the desired out
>come. Since we traveled back to 1942, we gonna go back to 1875 and start
>killing US Army generals? There was also the "He who is without sin..."
>angle there.
Logically, anyone who considers this course of action may very well find
himself the target of a similarly minded time traveller from further into
the future, whose taken note of HIS body count. :]
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 23:10:12 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
Cc: <champ-l@omg.org>
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At 11:12 PM 10/5/97 -0700, Scott S. wrote:
>Hey, I know, let's kill that meddler Einstein, and save the world from the
>horror of nuke's...
Except that killing Einstein probably would at best delay, not prevent, the
invention of nuclear weapons, and might tip the scales so *Germany* invents
them first. You return to a blasted radioactive wasteland surrounding the
Eternal Reich (only the U.S. and U.K. would probably actually be nuked into
dust, since Germany wanted to own Russia).
You know, this reminds me of a speculative fiction story I read once called
"Blood & Dust". It postulates two alien intelligences playing a game (of
the same name as the story) with Earth. Each has 3 "moves" consisting of
either sparing or killing a single individual in the time stream. The goal
is for the "Dust" player to destroy human civilization within his 3 moves,
without "Blood" stopping him.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 23:10:19 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 05:53 AM 10/5/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> And nobody's even brought up (at least directly, so far) the possibility
>that without Hitler in place, the Nazi Party might have come up led by
>someone even more vicious -- and with enough intelligence to actually win
>WWII.
Possible, but then again, this hypothetical UberFuhrer may actually have
*avoided* WWII (as we know it). Simple sandbox math dictates that when you
have 3 bigger boys around you, you don't pick a fight. Part of Hitler's
"incompetence" might have been his obsession with geopolitics, and the
belief that to control west-central Asia was the key to controlling the
world. A more competent leader may have been satisfied with France and
Eastern Europe, set up defensive lines, and sued for peace with Britain (and
never broken Germany's non-aggression pact with the Soviets).
And if you eliminate Adolf early enough, who's to say that the new Germany
will be Nazi at all? After all, Hitler brought more to the table than just
his ostensible incompetence -- he also brought an amazing ability to
manipulate people. The possibility exists that it REQUIRED a Hitler just to
sell the country on the Nazi party.
ObHERO: How do you GMs out there handle time travel, metaphysically, in your
campaigns? Is it POSSIBLE to change history? Have you ever had to deal
with paradoxes created by overzealous PCs? I'd like to hear some more
general time travel troubles.
I know the strangest adventure I ever had the pleasure to be a part of was a
time travel story (ironically enough, WWII) where one PC had the brilliant
idea to pass off our actions as those of existing Golden Age heroes. One
member, a brick named Anvil, sorta choked when he had to identify himself
during the adventure, and blurted that he was "Plymouth Rock!". Upon
returning, sure enough, there was now a record of the mystery man Plymouth
Rock in the history books.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams)
Date: 06 Oct 97 05:02:50 GMT
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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What is to say that after you the heros' kill some small multitude of
"villiens" that you become as bad as the scum you are executing. After all, if
Hitler killed 6 million, what does that make you when you have killed a few
thousand? Not as bad, or just a smaller mad killer?
You can rationalize all you want, but both are much the same, but.. Are they?
Especially if you kill the bad guy before he/she/it become "bad"?
Why not go back in history and try to "cure" the bad guy, instead of doing the
same thing as him/her/it?
Like in Hitlers case, move him to someplacw where his paintings could be sold.
After all, down deep Hitler was a painter, who cold not sell his okay paintings
cause in Vienna c.1930 there was thousands of starving artists just as good as
he. Or maybe even earlier.
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 22:33:35 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Vehicles and bases
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PopTholian@aol.com wrote:
>
>
> Our house rules:
>
> Destroyed Vehicles, Bases, and Duplicates and Foci
> can only return no more quickly than it would take to get the
> equivalent Body back via natural healing.
<IMHO>
For breakable foci: too harsh for most.
For unbreakable foci: too lenient and/or just wrong.
</IMHO>
For Duplicates, this directly violates the BBB. Any duplicate killed is
permanently lost. Of course, logically, a new duplicate can be purchased
at half price of the first.
<IHMO>The rule on duplicates is reasonable and necessary to avoid having
DupliHero split into two, one of whom remains in the Secret Chamber of
Safety. DupliHero is now virtually unkillable.</IMHO>
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 00:49:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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Subject: Re: GM question #1
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>
> What with the publication of Feng Shi and my current addiction to HK
> cinema, the same goes for me. Of course, anyone who watches anough HK
> flics will realize that you can shovel in all the angst and moral lessons
> you want... just add sufficent bullets.
>
This is very true. HK movies are often action dramas that also deal with
friendship, betrayal, angst, ect. I played in a Hong Kong Action Theatre
game at Gencon and enjoyed it quite a bit, though I'm likely to mainly use
it as source material most of the time. the movie guide in it is pretty
good.
I'm currently running a period kung fu campaign and knowing the players in
my campaign, I have them joining the school in town with the bad
reputation as trouble makers. I expected to have to provoke them a little,
but so far the PC's have been pretty willing to get into trouble. They've
vandelized the Red Banner school, gotten on good terms with the evil
magistrates (Which I loosely borrowed from Chinese Ghost Story), and
started spreading rumors about the Red Banner School being into all sorts
of vice operations.
It's shaping up to be an interesting and easy game to
GM:) I admit I borrowed the Red Banner from the books and made a few
changes, but for now they are the schol in town with the money and the
good rep. The PC's follow the 'Way of the Unrestricted Fist' and so far
from the Master have learned one basic technique, based on the three
principles: Motion, Contemplation, and Opposition. IE, if you are in
trouble, run away until you figure out a way to win;)
TokyoMark
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 23:01:30 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: question #1. ..
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jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>
> At 08:15 AM 10/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >> Well, one of my players at a later date accused me of trying to put
> >> forth my own views on animal experimentation. He also mentioned some
> >> other event in the campaign as another example of 'working my own
> >> agenda' but I can't recall what it was at this time.
> >
> >It's called writing. Show me a story, book, show that doesn't have at least
> >some questions of morality of agenda, and i'll show you a fairly boring
> >story.
> >Gilligan's island occasionally had morality plays. It's part of telling
> >stories.The unique thing role playing adds is allowing the characters to
> >really come form different moral points of view, and allowing the players
> >to really delve into what it means. This is excellent character development.
> >
>
> the problem arises when the gm's 'reality' rejects the pc's choices, even though real life rarely works that way. .
{Confused look}
How does the GM "accept" or "reject" the PC's choices? The GM sets up
the situation, the PC's react to it. If the campaign is gritty enough,
even the GM may not know a way out of the problem, but that doesn't mean
that the PCs can't think of one.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Reply-To: <scott2k@gte.net>
From: "Scott S." <scott2k@gte.net>
Cc: <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: GM question #1
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 23:12:12 -0700
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> This is a wonderful point. What about going further? Lets go
> back to the time of Ferdinand and Isabella and take out Carninal
> Torquemada. He's been responsible for an awful lot of destruction. And
> which pope called the first crusade? Gotta get him too. For that matter,
> they should take out Columbus' ship on the way to the new world -- stop
> the genocied of the American Indian peoples. At the same time, maybe the
> Aztec empire should be destroyed -- they practice human sacrafice, you
> know. And how about . . .
>
Hey, I know, let's kill that meddler Einstein, and save the world from the
horror of nuke's...
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 13:01:18 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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John Prins wrote:
>But I'm not going to penalize the person who buys 30rED by making
>him suffer if happens to need to trudge across the arctic tundra or Sahara
>desert (or rather, if he does suffer, he suffers a lot less than someone
>with only 5rED).
>
How about these examples:
Suit of armor (well... a Truly Badass suit of armor) with 30rED and
no Life Support: does it get a Limitation on its 30rED because it won't help
you from passing out due to heatstroke in the Sahara?
Kevlar Vest (again, a Truly Badass version) with 30rED, and an 8-
Activation. Does it get the same Limitation as above? Or does it still
work like LS: Heat (only with an 8- Activation)?
Personally, I think some specific rules for "environmental effects"
are needed, something akin to the Drowning Rules in the BBB. I'll try and
work on it.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 13:04:47 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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At 06:54 AM 10/6/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 04:13 PM 10/5/97 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>>I don't think I would play in your games. They are too limiting in their
>>scenarios.
>>
>>In this case, you are declaring that it is improper in a RPG to play out
>>the greatest of all human tragedies- antimony.
>
> Antimony isn't so tragic. I mean, sure, it doesn't conduct electricity
>all that well, but it's been very useful in castings, type metal, and ball
>bearings.
>
Well, they had the set-up for tragedy in the first Amalgam book, but
they rebooted for the second batch. So, the horrible scarring she probably
received was negated. eh. Magneto'd probably have fixed her, anyway.
- Jerry
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 00:12:00 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> Hm... now there's an interesting plotline. PCs go back and kill Hitler
> as a child, then return to find the world ruled by a Nazi regime. Then
> they have to go back and prevent themselves from killing Hitler.
I remember seeing a movie with a plot more or less like this. The heroes
have to sabotage a plot by German officers in 1944 to assassinate Hitler,
because at that point in the war Hitler's fanaticism was one of the
Allies' best advantages.
C-grade movie, IIRC.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
X-Sender: filkhero@pop.netaddress.com
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 01:10:52 -0700
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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At 09:10 PM 10/5/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
>F> By the arguments I have been hearing, the guy with "ground is lava" gets
>F> Affects Desolidified for free. Either that, or you have to explain exactly
>F> why regular lava does affect de solidified, but the villains lava doesn't.
>
>Wrong; I never said that.
You never said what, exactly? You have said, as best I can tell, that
natural lava can affect desolidified characters in some (unstated) fashion.
Does super power created lava have this ability, or not? What, exactly,
does this ability to affect desolidified characters do?
>What I said is that the *environmental* effects
>- -- the secondary effects if you would -- of those things can still harm a
>desolidified character if he does not have Life Support vs. extreme heat.
>Lava will not burn a desolidified character, but the intense heat could
>take him down if he is exposed to it for too long -- assuming that it is
>"real" lava and the attacks are bought as such instead of just short-lived
>"jets" -- just as it could anyone else.
So, attacks using lava that stays around, like real lava, will eventually
kill desolidified characters, even though the attacker didn't buy Affects
Desolid?
>F> If you buy enough of the proper defense, you gain effective immunity to
>F> environmental effects. A character with a 45 Energy Defense is immune to
>F> arctic winter,
>
>While buying lots of Energy Defense may protect one from the *damage*
>caused by some forms of bitter-cold attacks, it will not keep one warm, it
>will not prevent hypothermia, it will not prevent freezing to death due to
>prolonged exposure to such conditions.
Let me make something clear here. _In my campaign_, that is probably how I
would rule. However, no where in the _rulebook_ does it say this. There is
nothing in the BBB that states that extreme cold or heat do _anything_
beyond attack damage. Thus, this is my _house rule_, and therefore I cannot
simply declare it to be the way heat or cold are officially supposed to be
handled.
Furthermore, there is one thing we have been ignoring from the beginning.
If ED doesn't protect against cold, then what is a coat? If I decide I want
a character who is immune to cold up to a point, and resistant but not
immune for temperatures below that, then, by your ruling, there is no way
to do it. Only Life Support can protect him, and Life Support is all or
nothing.
I suggest that we _define_ environmental effects, before we declare them to
affect this character or that. So far, we haven't defined what the
environmental effects _are_ clearly, much less how much damage they do or
how it is defined. We are arguing about the effects of things not clearly
defined which are not covered in the rules.
We can do better than that.
Filksinger
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 01:25:18 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: GM question #1
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Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> > As a GM of this game, I would be of the opinion that "It would be VERY VERY
> > bad to kill Hitler" because of the changes in the timeline that would
> > result, etc. Is this offensive to anyone? Does it sound like I have a
> > Supremesist Agenda?
>
> No. There is the possibility that, in the abscence of Hitler, a
> greater evil arises that wins WW2 against the Allies.
>
> > On the other hand, I would personally have a struggle with the decision if
> > it were ever up to me to strangle little Adolf in the crib or let the
> > monster grow up...
>
> Then there's always the theory that, should a change be made to
> history, the time stream will shift back into position and provide a
> substitute -- nothing changes except the Nazis are crying, "Heil,
> Hetzler!"
And don't forget the completely objectively-based consequence that
changing history just might simply create a new branch of the timeline,
which the PCs would return to, but the 'established' timeline still
exists without them; i.e. they only are able to change *their own*
future, but all their family/friends etc. now exist in a seperate
timeline from the one they switched to....
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 01:37:05 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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Filksinger wrote:
>
> At 01:10 PM 9/28/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> >
> >But molten lava/core of the earth and arctic conditions/surface of an
> >atmosphereless planet *aren't* "minor" environmental effects. I could (if I
> >bothered) come up with SFX of Desolid to allow me to survive in these
> >environments. I just beleive that characters shouldn't get that for free.
> >Pay for the Life Support (even if it *is* Linked to the Desolid).
>
> All of this discussion is interesting, but it still doesn't solve the
> original problem. Consider two villains. Both have an RKA Radius Area
> Effect. One is defined as a "heat field", the other "the ground turns into
> lava".
>
> By the arguments I have been hearing, the guy with "ground is lava" gets
> Affects Desolidified for free. Either that, or you have to explain exactly
> why regular lava does affect de solidified, but the villains lava doesn't.
That's why I maintain that to a desolidified character, these two
attacks would be identical; the lava, being a physical object, would
pass right through the character, but (s)he would still be subject to
problems of ambient extreme heat, while the other attack would have the
exact same effect of ambient extreme heat.
The hangup seems to be that the BBB doesn't state clearly (aside from
mental powers) what effects are *not* negated by desolidification, but
there should be. If a character wants to be completely removed from
the physical plane (completely immune) it requires additional
powers/talents linked to basic desolidification. Just as with 4th ed.
growth; if you want add'l running to reflect your huge strides, you have
to buy it seperately - or more presence to reflect being huge and
intimidating. But if desolidification still requires air to breathe,
then there should be a category of powers or abilities (posibly under
the heading 'environmental effects') that universally affect all
characters with basic desolidification.
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 02:00:59 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Vehicles and bases
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Filksinger wrote:
>
> At 06:19 AM 9/28/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >
> >>In fact, If I chose to replace a follower via a quest, I think that I
> >>would make a special award of experience to be used to create a
> >>replacement follower, and leave the dead follower on the base character's
> >>sheet forever as a reminder.
> >
> > This is not unreasonable.
>
> Except, perhaps, in the case of entire agencies being your followers.
> Consider someone with an army of followers, who not only has to pay points
> to replace them, but who dramatically increases the size of their army to
> boot just to replace one follower. Then, keep track of every dead follower
> on the sheet is a bit unreasonable, if you have 1024 of them to begin with.
If someone has 1024 followers, I assume that there should be a writeup
somewhere about where they are all stationed, how they are trained and
equipped, etc. A count of "number killed in the line of duty" does not
seem an unreasonable amount of bookkeeping. Of course, in those sort
of quantities, it seems reasonable for 1 point to buy an additional 14%,
since 1.14 is approximately the fifth root of two, and restricting
oneself to powers of two seems silly, thus reserves are cheap.
>
> Filksinger
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 16:13:02 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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At 12:50 PM 10/6/97 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>At 12:47 PM 10/6/97 +0000, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>
>>For those who DIDN'T get the joke, the word should have been
>>"Antigone", not "antimony".
>
>AAAAAAUUUUGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!
>
>Antimony is the correct word. Antimony can be a silvery-white metal.
>Sometimes it is a legal term, meaning when two laws conflict. And
>_sometimes_ it is a (potentially tragic) conflict between two equally right
>propositions.
>
>Unfortunately, the last definition is rarely found in dictionaries. My 20
>pound Websters doesn't even mention the legal term.
>
Well, it wasn't in my American Heritage Dictionary, either. But,
two entries down from "antiMoNy" (my emphasis) is "antiNoMy" (again, my
emphasis).
antinomy - n. 1. An apparent contradiction between valid principles
or conclusions that seem equally necessary and reasonable. 2. A conflict,
opposition, or contradiction.
This seems to be the word you're describing. I'm not particularly
verbose, but I just stumbled upon it.
obHero: How many extra dice would a 20-lb Webster's give?
- Jerry
PS - as far as Antigone goes, I don't think she was in Amalgam. : )
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 06:13:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Judge, Jury and Executioner (was Re: GM question #1)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 27
On Sun, 5 Oct 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> >ANd then ther was the villain team of the same name. Jury even had
> >duplication (12 duplicates).
> >
> Are these guys a published team (comics or otherwise) of just the
> creation of a devious mind?
> Let's see... give Jury Enraged or Berserk and he's Twelve Angry Men.
> If Judge is crooked, he could have Vulnerability: 2x Effect from Bribes.
>
> Seriously, though, could you give more specifics on these characters?
They are the creation of someone in the local area. I don't remember much
about them (although I could find out). Lemme get back to you.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 16:24:04 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Rook wrote:
> I've been wondering how many people use Heromaker.
Myself and some of my players... that's at least four, right there.
>I'm putting together a website (albeit very slowly) and noticed on
>Bob Greewade's site he lists his house rules as a series of files to
>modify heromaker with.
Huh. Wonder how I missed all that on there. I'm gonna have to take
yet another close look at Mr. Greenwade's page.
> I myself use the program heavily, and I was wondering how many of
>us out there us it, and how many use other items.
> Is it widespread? Do people like it? Etc...?
I like it. I used to use my own format character sheet, done on
MSWord for Windows, but everything had to be input by hand (ugh). It's much
easier this way.
I though Hero was ditching it, though?
> I'm thinking of following Bob's format of putting up my mods
>to Heromaker.
I think it's a good idea. Your page has a good start. Keep it up.
- Jerry
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 06:38:31 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:09 PM 10/6/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote:
> I've been wondering how many people use Heromaker.
>
>I'm putting together a website (albeit very slowly) and noticed on
>Bob Greewade's site he lists his house rules as a series of files to
>modify heromaker with.
> I myself use the program heavily, and I was wondering how many of
>us out there us it, and how many use other items.
> Is it widespread? Do people like it? Etc...?
I quit using HeroMaker a week after I purchased Champions Deluxe (which is
where I got my copy). It's poorly documented and not very friendly to my
existing computer system, and I already have a WordPerfect template for
printing up characters in the format published books like Classic Enemies used.
I might switch to HM if I could find a decent way to print character sheets
that don't look like newspaper-clipping ransom notes. :/
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:47:54 +0000
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Reply-to: ghoyle1@airmail.net
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 45
> At 06:54 AM 10/6/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >At 04:13 PM 10/5/97 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
> >>I don't think I would play in your games. They are too limiting in their
> >>scenarios.
> >>
> >>In this case, you are declaring that it is improper in a RPG to play out
> >>the greatest of all human tragedies- antimony.
> >
> > Antimony isn't so tragic. I mean, sure, it doesn't conduct electricity
> >all that well, but it's been very useful in castings, type metal, and ball
> >bearings.
> >
> Well, they had the set-up for tragedy in the first Amalgam book, but
> they rebooted for the second batch. So, the horrible scarring she probably
> received was negated. eh. Magneto'd probably have fixed her, anyway.
>
> - Jerry
For those who DIDN'T get the joke, the word should have been
"Antigone", not "antimony".
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:01:08 -0400
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: subscribe tristanlink@earthlink.net
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 29
> X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
> From: Tristan Anderson <tristanlink@earthlink.net>
> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 17:39:16 -0700
> X-To: hero-l@october.com
> X-Listname: Hero
> Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero)
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>
>
>
> subscribe tristanlink@earthlink.net
>
>
>
Done.
Geoff Speare
OMG
geoff@omg.org
Pre-FAQ info:
This is information related to the Hero System email list.
PLEASE SAVE THIS INFORMATION! It tells you how to unsubscribe.
0) To UNSUBSCRIBE, send email to hero-request@omg.org. Please include
your email address and ask to be removed from the Hero System list.
1) hero-l@omg.org and champ-l@omg.org are the same list in all
respects.
2) The Hero System email list is an electronic mailing list for
discussion of all things related to the Hero System. It is not
officially affiliated with Hero Games or Hero Software in any way
(although employees of either may be subscribed).
3) The list is VERY HIGH VOLUME. An average of 50-100 messages per
/day/ are sent to the list. There is at present no "digest mode".
If this volume is too high, send email to hero-request@omg.org to
be taken off the list.
4) Any and all administrative issues (subscribing, switching accounts,
questions about the operation of the list, etc.) should be emailed
to hero-request@omg.org.
The Champions/Hero System
Points of Clarity List
Informational
This is the unofficial Champions/Hero System Points of Clarity List.
It is a resource of official and unofficial clarifications to many
commonly asked questions and ambiguous rules. The most current version
is available via the World Wide Web at
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/champions.html. A text version is
also available at
ftp://ftp.ccs.neu.edu/pub/people/ratinox/champ/champions.faq. If you
are incapable of anonymous ftp, you may request a copy from
ratinox@peorth.gweep.net.
The Red October BBS has gone on-line with a wealth of Champions
related material. There are also a number of Champions-related links
on Yahoo.
There are some Champions-related files at ftp.umd.umich.edu.
Finally, there is a mailing list for Champions related discussions.
All list administrivia should be sent to hero-request@omg.org (hero-l
and champ-l are the same mailing list, one address is an alias for the
other). It may take a few days for the administrator to add you to the
list, so please be patient.
Champions/HERO System
Champions is HERO Games' super hero role-playing game using the HERO
System. Champions and the HERO System are Trademarks of and Copyright
by Hero Games. This file is in no way meant to infringe against Hero
Games.
Now that the legal stuff is out of the way...
The HERO System is a universal role-playing system. It is a point
based system that allows creation of characters from any genre, of any
level of ability. Unlike many so-called "universal" games, Champions
is a "power based" game, rather than an "effect based" game. What this
means is that a lightning bolt spell, a blaster rifle, and a fiery
super hero's flame all use the same Power (Energy Blast in this
example), but the Special Effects define the ability and any
Advantages or Limitations it has.
Originally, Champions and the other HERO System games were published
separately, each rule book containing a complete reproduction of the
current edition of the rules. With the publication of the 4th edition
Champions Hard cover, all the rules are in one book, and individual
source books are published to cover various genres.
The HERO System Rulesbook is a reprinting of the majority of the 4th
edition hard cover, but without the super hero background and campaign
material. It contains the complete rules from the hard cover, and the
errata published in Adventurers Club #16. It also has a usable index
and costs $15 less than the hard cover.
There is now a softcover printing of the Champions book. It, like the
HERO System Rulesbook, contains the AC#16 errata.
Champions Deluxe is a reprinting of the entire 4th edition hardcover
(it is often listed as "version 4.2" of the rules), bundled with the
HeroMaker software. Champions Deluxe has a number of subtle changes
throughout, some of which contradict previous printings of the fourth
edition rules.
In any case where a discrepancy between various versions of the 4th
edition arise the most recent revision have been given preference.
Special Effects are of the utmost importance when defining mechanics.
Many of the answers here may not fit the special effects you require.
Remember, work from the effects backwards, and see what does work.
Generally, many problems and confusions may be solved by applying
these two rules of thumb:
* If you can create an effect using several different mechanics, the
one with the higher Active Cost is usually the most appropriate.
* If you can create an effect using an "unusual" Power to simulate
an existing Power, do not do it; use the existing Power instead.
As always, a bit of common sense should always prevail.
Points Of Clarity Summary
* Combat
+ Multiple Attacks
+ Use of Multiple Powers
+ Holding Actions
+ Aborting
+ Defensive Maneuvers
* Skills
+ Movement Skill Levels
* Powers
+ Duplication
+ Multiform
+ Flight
+ Absolute Powers
* Advantages
+ Advantages with Strength
+ Continuing Charges
+ Hardened
* Limitations
+ Gradual Effect
+ What is "Stun Only" worth?
* Miscellaneous
+ Move to rec.games.frp.(super-)hero(es)?
+ Rounding
+ Minimum Real Cost
_________________________________________________________________
Combat
Multiple Attacks
You may perform only one attack action during a Phase.
Use of Multiple Powers
You may simultaneously use as many powers as you have time, Endurance,
and framework point allocations to activate.
Whether or not you may use multiple powers simultaneously to make an
attack is a frequently argued issue. This issue is made more unclear
because various people at Hero Games have provided diametrically
opposed answers to the question. At this time, the "correct" answer is
"whatever the GM decides".
Note: if you do allow the use of several powers in a single attack,
the combination of powers should fit within the campaign guidelines.
If there is a 12DC maximum in the campaign, a character cannot
simultaneously use both his 4D6 RKA and his 12D6 EB at full power.
Holding Actions
According to Steve Peterson, you may hold your Segment 12 action into
Segment 1 of the next Turn. You do not lose your "free" post-Segment
12 recovery if you do.
Aborting
According to Steve Peterson, once you perform an action which ends
your action phase, you may not perform any additional actions during
that phase. This includes: moving more than half your movement,
dodging, blocking, aborting to a defensive action, or performing any
action that requires more than a half-Phase action to perform while
doing nothing else.
Defensive Maneuvers
Defensive maneuvers and the bonuses they provide remain in effect
until the start of your next Action Phase. If you abort to a defensive
action, your Action Phase starts at the point you begin the defensive
action.
_________________________________________________________________
Skills
Movement Skill Levels
Each skill level with a Movement power reduces that power's Turn Mode
by 1". Skill levels for 1 Movement cost 2 points per +1 and may only
be used in this manner for "controlled" movement (Running, Swimming,
Flight, Gliding). For "uncontrolled" movement (Leaping,
Teleportation), Movement Skill Levels may be used to affect your OCV
when you need to target a specific hex. Note: all vehicles have Turn
Modes for all controlled movement forms. Including Movement Skill
Levels in a vehicle will make it more maneuverable.
Optionally, Movement Skill Levels may be used to change your
Acceleration or Deceleration from the given 5"/inch moved. Each Skill
Level will allow you to increase your Acceleration or Deceleration by
1".
_________________________________________________________________
Powers
Duplication
Can you duplicate something that you have not paid ponts for, such as
the Crown Jewels? If not, then why do duplicates not appear naked?
(Credits for this answer go to John Kim
<khk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu&g>
Normally, you may not duplicate anything you haven't paid points for.
Special effects define how a particular character's duplication works.
One method, some form of biological cloning ability, would in fact not
duplicate any gadgets or clothing. A temporal fugeuing effect, calling
future selves to the present, may be able to duplicate whatever you
have handy. Or not, as you catch yourself in the shower (this is a -0
limitation special effect that a GM can have lots of fun with).
Also remember that anything you duplicate will disappear when the
duplicates recombine (or go home, or whatever).
If you really want to duplicate other things that provide powers, use
a Variable Power Pool with limitations which add up to "only to create
duplicates of non-living things." If you want to duplicate living
things, you'd better have a very good reason and effect for
Duplication, Usable By/Against Others.
Multiform
When a Multiform character earns experience, the points are added to
the base form's total. Note that all the forms are still one
character; a character with three forms does not earn three times the
experience as a single form character.
To "improve" a secondary form, the Multiform cost of the base form
must be increased with those experience points. This increases the
"base cost" of the secondary form. Or, you may instead opt to add a
"bonus disadvantage" to the secondary form's character sheet. Remember
that the total cost of the secondary forms cannot exceed the cost of
the base form minus the cost of the Multiform power.
Flight
You may lift as much as your Strength allows you to carry and still be
able to fly. Movement powers are not normally restricted by Strength
or how much one carries.
Absolute Powers
Drains, Suppresses, and Transfers only need to cover the minimum cost
of an "absolute-cost" Power in order to render it useless. Thus, no
matter how many Advantages you have on Desolid, you only have to
Drain, Suppress, or Transfer 40 Points of it to render it useless.
To Drain, Suppress, or otherwise adjust a Power or Characteristic that
has a specific number of points associated with it, you must Drain,
Suppress, or otherwise adjust the full point cost of one "increment".
Likewise, the victim does not regain the use of that "increment"
untili the full Active Point cost has been recovered.
_________________________________________________________________
Advantages
Advantages with Strength
According to Bruce Harlick, you apportion Strength among the base
Power and all Advantages. If you have a 1D6 HKA, Autofire, Armor
Piercing, and you have 20 Strength, you could increase the attack to a
maximum of 1.5D6, because you must pro-rate half of your Strength to
the two Advantages.
There are some exceptions, primarilly Reduced Endurance and Charges.
If your campaign lists other advantages as not increasing the Damage
Classes of a power, then these should probably be excluded as well.
Continuing Charges
To get a Continuous effect on a Power with Continuing Charges requires
the Power to be Continuous (either Constant or Persistent), or have
the Continuous Advantage. A napalm grenade would be a Ranged Killing
Attack, Area of Effect, Uncontrolled Continuous, with "n" Continuing
Charges of "x" duration.
Bruce "I'm Line Editor So I'm Right" Harlick sez:
A Continuous Attack Power requires that a character spend a
half-phase attack action to maintain the Power. He could make a
half-move, but could not make any full move maneuvers, nor could he
launch any other attacks. To be able to launch new attacks or do
full moves the Attack Power would also need to be Uncontrolled for
a total Advantage of +1 1/2.
To simulate attacks which "follow" the target, like poisons or drugs,
you need the Gradual Effect Limitation from Adventurer's Club #16 or
Fantasy Hero.
Hardened
Steve Peterson sez:
One level of Hardening cancels both one level of AP and one level
of Penetrating. Thus, a Penetrating AP attack against defense that
has been Hardened (at +1/4) is treated as the attack without
Penetrating or AP. A Penetrating Double AP attack would act as an
AP attack against that defense. Does that clear things up?
_________________________________________________________________
Limitations
Gradual Effect
A power with this limitation has its effect spread out over a period
of time. For example, a 6D6 Killing Attack with Gradual Effect 1 Hour
would do 1D6 KA every 10 minutes. The first increment of damage is
applied to the target immediately. [Note: there is a different version
of this modifier in the Hero System Almanac #1.]
Gradual Effect Time Limitation
1 Turn -1/2
1 Minute -1
5 Minutes -1 1/2
1 Hour -2
5 Hours -2 1/2
1 Day -3
1 Week -3 1/2
etc. etc.
The target of a Gradual Effect attack gets his defenses once. He takes
no damage from the attack until the cumulative damage of the attack
exceeds his defenses. In the example above, the target has 8 points of
resistant defense, and the dice roll 4 BODY when he gets hit and 5
BODY after 10 minutes, then 3, 1 and 6. He would take no BODY damage
initially and 1 BODY after 10 minutes since 9 BODY exceeds his
defenses. After that, he will continue taking the damage without any
more defense (it has already been applied to the attack).
Gradual Effect is usually used on a power with the NND or AVLD
Advantages, where the target takes all of the damage, or none of it.
What is "Stun Only" worth?
Nothing; the disadvantages of doing no Body damage or Knockback are balanced
by the fact that such a power does no collateral damage to the landscape nor
will it permanantly hurt innocent bystanders if you miss.
________________________________________________________________________
Miscellaneous
Move to rec.games.frp.(super-)hero(es)?
No. While there is greater participation in a Usenet newsgroup, there is also
quite a bit more "noise". You may discuss Champions all you want on the
superheroes' newsgroup, but the list will remain where and as it is.
Rounding
Rounding is for the "real" costs of a Characteristic or Power. You could get
1 point of COM for free, as it has a "real" cost of 1/2 CP per point of COM,
and you get the round-off. Body has a "real" cost of 1 CP per point of Body,
so you have to pay the full 2 points to get +1 Body.
Several Hero/Champions supplements have used some strange rounding methods
for calculating Stun from odd STR or CON. According to the main rulebooks,
the formula is (STR/2)u + (CON/2)u ("u" means "round up"). Minimum Real Cost
The minimum Real Cost of any Power, Characteristic, Skill, or whatever, is 1
point, regardless of rounding.
________________________________________________________________________
Copyright 1999 by Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Last modified: Mon Jan 13 12:49:51 1997
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:01:08 -0400
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> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 17:39:16 -0700
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Done.
Geoff Speare
OMG
geoff@omg.org
Pre-FAQ info:
This is information related to the Hero System email list.
PLEASE SAVE THIS INFORMATION! It tells you how to unsubscribe.
0) To UNSUBSCRIBE, send email to hero-request@omg.org. Please include
your email address and ask to be removed from the Hero System list.
1) hero-l@omg.org and champ-l@omg.org are the same list in all
respects.
2) The Hero System email list is an electronic mailing list for
discussion of all things related to the Hero System. It is not
officially affiliated with Hero Games or Hero Software in any way
(although employees of either may be subscribed).
3) The list is VERY HIGH VOLUME. An average of 50-100 messages per
/day/ are sent to the list. There is at present no "digest mode".
If this volume is too high, send email to hero-request@omg.org to
be taken off the list.
4) Any and all administrative issues (subscribing, switching accounts,
questions about the operation of the list, etc.) should be emailed
to hero-request@omg.org.
The Champions/Hero System
Points of Clarity List
Informational
This is the unofficial Champions/Hero System Points of Clarity List.
It is a resource of official and unofficial clarifications to many
commonly asked questions and ambiguous rules. The most current version
is available via the World Wide Web at
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/champions.html. A text version is
also available at
ftp://ftp.ccs.neu.edu/pub/people/ratinox/champ/champions.faq. If you
are incapable of anonymous ftp, you may request a copy from
ratinox@peorth.gweep.net.
The Red October BBS has gone on-line with a wealth of Champions
related material. There are also a number of Champions-related links
on Yahoo.
There are some Champions-related files at ftp.umd.umich.edu.
Finally, there is a mailing list for Champions related discussions.
All list administrivia should be sent to hero-request@omg.org (hero-l
and champ-l are the same mailing list, one address is an alias for the
other). It may take a few days for the administrator to add you to the
list, so please be patient.
Champions/HERO System
Champions is HERO Games' super hero role-playing game using the HERO
System. Champions and the HERO System are Trademarks of and Copyright
by Hero Games. This file is in no way meant to infringe against Hero
Games.
Now that the legal stuff is out of the way...
The HERO System is a universal role-playing system. It is a point
based system that allows creation of characters from any genre, of any
level of ability. Unlike many so-called "universal" games, Champions
is a "power based" game, rather than an "effect based" game. What this
means is that a lightning bolt spell, a blaster rifle, and a fiery
super hero's flame all use the same Power (Energy Blast in this
example), but the Special Effects define the ability and any
Advantages or Limitations it has.
Originally, Champions and the other HERO System games were published
separately, each rule book containing a complete reproduction of the
current edition of the rules. With the publication of the 4th edition
Champions Hard cover, all the rules are in one book, and individual
source books are published to cover various genres.
The HERO System Rulesbook is a reprinting of the majority of the 4th
edition hard cover, but without the super hero background and campaign
material. It contains the complete rules from the hard cover, and the
errata published in Adventurers Club #16. It also has a usable index
and costs $15 less than the hard cover.
There is now a softcover printing of the Champions book. It, like the
HERO System Rulesbook, contains the AC#16 errata.
Champions Deluxe is a reprinting of the entire 4th edition hardcover
(it is often listed as "version 4.2" of the rules), bundled with the
HeroMaker software. Champions Deluxe has a number of subtle changes
throughout, some of which contradict previous printings of the fourth
edition rules.
In any case where a discrepancy between various versions of the 4th
edition arise the most recent revision have been given preference.
Special Effects are of the utmost importance when defining mechanics.
Many of the answers here may not fit the special effects