Week Ending October 18, 1997
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Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 00:59:27 +0900
From: Michael House <macross@gol.com>
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
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At 16:43 -0700 1997.10.10, Mann, Wade wrote:
> I am currently developing some software that might be released through
> Hero Games. I am trying to figure out the platforms that I should
> support.
>
> How many of you are using win 3.x, win95/nt, and/or Mac?
Mac OS 8-J, on a PowerBook 3400c/200. If possible, I'd like to see a
PowerPC-native version of this proposed software, in addition to a
68K version. No Fat Binaries, please.
Be Seeing You...
--Michael House, macross@gol.com, www.gainax.co.jp
GAINAX Co., Ltd. (Opinions expressed are my own unless otherwise specified)
"Perfection is achieved only by institutions on the point of collapse."
--C. Northcote Parkinson
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:02:10 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
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> Proud to be using Windows 95---oops. Wait a second while I
> reinstall...
Of course, to be an equal opportunity insulter, the Mac-ers have
it good. At least they will be getting a real OS. The microsoft clones
have to wiat around for a product that will give them even less control
over their computer.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:03:30 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Tragic Tale of a Teenage Dinosaur-Man
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I'm new at this Champions thing, so bear with me...
I'm planning on running a Scenario with a few of my friends. One
of the characters is an ancient Dinosaur-Man awakened from his
millenium slumber. He's very big, and weighs alot (15 points of
Growth and Density Increase [one level each], 0 END, Persistent,
Always on).
It dosen't make much sense that a character using Drain could
make him shrink (...unless the character has bought Drain with that
specific special effect [in which case I'd probally design El Shrinko
with Shrinking Useable Against Others]), since his size is pretty much
innate and absolute. Is there anything (aside from buying innane levels
of Growth and Density Increase with Difficult to Dispel) to represent
this 'innate-ness'? Perhaps a Power Modifier ('Innate Power')...
Should logic just shine through at that point? (The Sf/x is natural,
therefore
therefore, a Drain wouldn't work- much in the same way a
Drian wouldn't work against an Elephant's Growth). Can you 'Drain' his
Extra-Limb (Tail) away? (Under a similar logical assumption, Extra
Limb is a 'Special Power,' assumed to be functioning unless it is turned
"off," which he couldn't do [would you let a player turn his 'Extra Limb'
'off'? Would he get any compensation for being unable to turn his 'Limb'
on and off? Would it cost any more points to have an set of extra arms that
could just appear?)
What about actual character creation? Racial Package Deal or
Elemental Control: Dino-Man Anatomy?
Tell me what you think...
Jason Sullivan
Subject: Re: Tragic Tale of a Teenage Dinosaur-Man
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 97 13:25:48 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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ALONE AT MIDNIGHT RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu 10/11/97 1:03 PM
> I'm planning on running a Scenario with a few of my friends. One
>of the characters is an ancient Dinosaur-Man awakened from his
>millenium slumber. He's very big, and weighs alot (15 points of
>Growth and Density Increase [one level each], 0 END, Persistent,
>Always on).
> It dosen't make much sense that a character using Drain could
>make him shrink
<snip>
> What about actual character creation? Racial Package Deal or
>Elemental Control: Dino-Man Anatomy?
Jason,
This is PURELY A HOUSE RULE but here's how my PBEM groups been handling
that problem. If and only if a charater's DI and/or growth is defined
as innate/racial (0 END, Persistent,Always On...especially always on...)
we've fiat ruled that it can't be drained. However, secondary effects
CAN be. Specifically, I can't shrink you with a drain but I can drain
the strength, PD, ED, etc. your size grants. Also, neither DI nor Growth
are considered "tight groups" of effects for adjustment power advantages.
In general, this has worked for us, largely because the Always On
physiology effect is relitively uncommon and it really hasn't been abused.
Now if everyone suddenly decides they waht to be Dinosaur-Man also, I'd
definantly make them pay for some outrageous Power Defense with a -3 or
more limitation Only to defend Growth/DI. Actually, I modeled it this
way initially when I came up with this sort of concept until my GM said
it could be chalked up to Special Effect.
Again, THIS IS A HOUSE RULE, not core Champs, so use at your own risk...
PAX,
John
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:26:16 -0700
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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Mike Lehmann wrote:
>
> -=> Quoting Rick Ryker to Mike Lehmann <=-
>
> RR> HERO changed the rules so that you CAN have Density and Growth
> affect your figured stats for an advantage cost.
>
> Must have been a recent change, or a really old one that got fixed
> along the way.
It existed in Golden Age of Champions by Firebird(?). Not the GAC that
was printed by Hero games. So it was based on the Third edition anyhow.
+1/4 for growth and +1/2 for DI if I remember.
I don't think it was ever official Hero.
-Mark Lemming
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:41:32 -0700
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On 10/10/97 4:29 PM, Rick Ryker wrote:
>> Do you save the human race?
>>
>Hell yes! As I said before, a "no-brainer".
>The life instinct for survival of the self is only superceded
>by the life instinct for survival of the species.
>
>Going back to your case of the space aliens trying to land.
>It would be criminal (against life's basic instincts) to side for the
>aliens.
>It would be criminal (against life's basic instincts) for the aliens
to
>side for you.
>If their only hope for survival is to land on your planet. No
brainer.
>They are going to. You just try to stop them.
>If the aliens trying to land is going to kill millions of people. No
>brainer.
>We're going to do everything in our power to stop them.
Interesting. The decision for the survival of the last 800 aliens, on
the part of the aliens, was declared evil by several of the others who
previously replied. By extention of what they said, to save the last
800 humans at the cost of 1,000,000 aliens is also evil.
Thus, the decision you call a "no brainer" was declared "evil" by
others on this thread.
>But we are getting WAY of track in these posts.
>This thread was supposed to be about providing your players
>with No-Win situations where no matter how many options there are
>none of them will let the players "win".
Well, yes and no. If you are going to use the "antinomy" method of
creating tragic, "no-win" scenarios, it is very important that you
know the character's values _very_ well. Otherwise, they simply choose
one or the other. This example does help to illustrate that.
>Would somebody please define "win"?
Depends upon the scenario. There are a couple of "no-win" scenarios
possible, with numerous variations. In some there is only one result
and you can't stop it. In such cases, winning would be stopping the
unstoppable, or completing the impossible, possibly at great, but
lesser, cost. In others, you have two (or more) conflicting
possibilities, which are supposed to be equally bad. Winning would be
ending the conflict and getting both, possibly at great, but lesser,
cost.
Such scenarios should be used in only one of three situations. First,
they could be on a fairly low level. Example: The Crown Jewels of
England vs. the life of a petty criminal. (Note: Please don't tell me
these aren't equal. I cannot create antinomy for you, because I don't
know you. I have trouble enough creating antinomy for even one
character and player that I know well.)
Second would be if your players are heavily into plumbing the depths
of their characters, and want to play what happyelf! called, "shaking
their fists at the sky and bawling their eyes out". For a scenario
like this, you need to have just the right players, as players who
don't want to do this generally _really_ don't want to do this.
Third would be if your players asked for a scenario where they would
fight each other. In such a case, the conflicting situations would be
chosen to create antinomy (a balance between the equally bad cases)
for the group as a whole, but the individual characters would pick one
or the other.
Note that in all but the most minor case, these require players who
really want to do something like this. Even the minor case should be
used with the greatest of care, as you might find that the conflict is
both less fun and more devisive than you planned.
Filksinger
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 13:56:24 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Tragic Tale of a Lonely Archer
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Archer is a hero with a 3d6 KA (32 recoverable charges, 2 handed
weapon, OAF, Independent, Str miniumum 28, Power Limitation: Cost END) to
simulate a bow he uses in combat...
I want to give him a movement power, namely Swinging, in the form
of an Arrow with a line attached to it. How do I simulate this Sf/x,
considering it will take time and probally a Skill roll to get the arrow
into the object in question. It would be impossible for him to use it
in rapid sucession (like a Spider-Guy would...), or on objects that are
too dense for the arrow to penetrate. If he has one recoverable charge,
could he just pluck it using the cord attached to it? Would the focus
be the sing line itself, the arrow, or the bow? Would it be Linked to
the previous attack, and if it were, would it cost additional END to
fire (or would you just buy it with the Limitation: Charges)? What
is the DEF and BODY of a swing line? How long is it? Would it
add any bonuses to climbing (and how fast could he climb up it)?
....can anyone out there think of the numerous Sf/x of a piece of rope?
Sliding across it from an elevation, using it to choke an enemy, tripping
or 'clotheslining' a number of goons running itno your line of fire,
entangling someone with a 'bounced' shot, rappling, climbing (again),
shooting it into a helecopter so the brick in your part can tug it down,
having other people on it at the same time, tying yourself down to a street
lamp while Dr. Wind conjures up a storm.... how would these translate into
game terms? ...and how much weight could it support? What if it missed?!?
Your feed back would be appreciated.
Archers of the World, Unite!
Jason Sullivan
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 15:38:39 -0400 (EDT)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Tragic Tale of a Teenage Dinosaur-Man
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> I'm new at this Champions thing, so bear with me...
> I'm planning on running a Scenario with a few of my friends. One
>of the characters is an ancient Dinosaur-Man awakened from his
>millenium slumber. He's very big, and weighs alot (15 points of
>Growth and Density Increase [one level each], 0 END, Persistent,
>Always on).
Wow, that's x64 mass...why should a Dino-man be denser than any other living
creature? I could see 5 pips of DI to represent heavy bones and muscle, but
15 pips? He's be dense as stone...
> It dosen't make much sense that a character using Drain could
>make him shrink (...unless the character has bought Drain with that
>specific special effect [in which case I'd probally design El Shrinko
>with Shrinking Useable Against Others]), since his size is pretty much
>innate and absolute.
Don't worry about it. Seriously, how many enemies are you going to see with
'Drain vs. Growth' or 'Drain vs. Density Increase'. Sure, characters with a
VPP could do it, but why would they? (I'll point out that a 0 END Persistant
power racks up a lot of Active Points to be Drained).
>Is there anything (aside from buying innane levels
>of Growth and Density Increase with Difficult to Dispel) to represent
>this 'innate-ness'?
You don't need one. It will be so rare that worrying about it is mostly
pointless. If you _are_ worried about it, buy 10 pips of Power Defense,
which will be good vs. all sorts of other effects too (BTW, I could say that
my STR is 'innate' and shouldn't be drainable, but nobody's gonna buy that
logic - a Drain vs. Growth/DI would have to have the SFX of being a 'shrink
ray'). If we ever get a Champs 5th Edition, though, I'd like to see Mass as
a characteristic rather than a power.
>Perhaps a Power Modifier ('Innate Power')...
>Should logic just shine through at that point? (The Sf/x is natural,
>therefore
> therefore, a Drain wouldn't work- much in the same way a
>Drian wouldn't work against an Elephant's Growth).
Sure it would, SFX willing. Besides, anybody with a 'shrink ray' gun will
probably have a multipower with Drain vs. Growth and Shrinking, UAO. How
does he know which to use? Easy - is it bigger than a human? Drain it. Is it
human sized or smaller? Shrink it! :-)
>Can you 'Drain' his
>Extra-Limb (Tail) away?
Yes, but it would have extremely odd SFX (genetic reversion ray??).
>(Under a similar logical assumption, Extra
>Limb is a 'Special Power,' assumed to be functioning unless it is turned
>"off," which he couldn't do [would you let a player turn his 'Extra Limb'
>'off'?
If he doesn't have Distinctive Features, sure. Example: A telekinetic who
has Extra Limbs (as required) who can then use his STR without using his
'hands' (still subject to touch triggers/damage shields/whatnot). Or
somebody with retractable tentacles, or waldos, or extendible tongues, etc.
> Would he get any compensation for being unable to turn his 'Limb'
>on and off?
Yeah, Distinctive Features, probably.
>Would it cost any more points to have an set of extra arms that
>could just appear?)
Nope.
> What about actual character creation? Racial Package Deal or
>Elemental Control: Dino-Man Anatomy?
> Tell me what you think...
I shy away from racial package deals unless the race is pretty common; even
then, it's more to set the racial characteristic maxima more than anything
(and I use the 'if you raise/lower the maxima/minima, the base
characteristic changes as well' (otherwise, you really pay double duty on
those characteristics anyway...). Elemental Control would be best. Like:
EC: Dino-Man Anatomy (15)
A.) 15 pip Growth, 0 END Persistant (+1), Always On (-1/2)
B.) 15 pip Density Increase, 0 END Persistant (+1), Always On (-1/2)
C.) 10rED, 10rED Armor [scaly skin]
D.) 2D6 Hand Killing Attack [bite/claw]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 15:38:43 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Antinomy/Tragedy/No-Win Situations and GMing Question #1
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>it was a No-Win situation. He was trapped deep inside a complex that it
>took him several hours to completely infiltrate. Then the countdown timer
>was set for 30 seconds... Now, I'm back at college, and if Joel wants to
>play, I've already told him that he could be Force, that he would be able to
>have escaped. He said, "Cool. How did I get out?" I told him, "It doesn't
>matter, you did, and then a Ranger team picked you up." Honestly, it *was*
>a No-Win situation, and there was no conceivable way out.
Hey, this is Champions we're talking here! The explosion threw him through a
dimensional portal! He was captured via teleportation by his enemies! He was
rescued by a magician who needed his services! It wasn't really him, just
his android duplicate! He fell through a fissure in the foundations and came
face to face with the terrible Mole-Men! He was pulled from the rubble and
rebuilt into a military cyborg! He got really, really, really lucky and was
able to dig his way out of the rubble...
Sheesh. In Champions, death is the _easy_ way out.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 15:38:47 -0400 (EDT)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Tragic Tale of a Lonely Archer
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> Archer is a hero with a 3d6 KA (32 recoverable charges, 2 handed
>weapon, OAF, Independent, Str miniumum 28, Power Limitation: Cost END) to
>simulate a bow he uses in combat...
Eugch! Is this for a superhero game? Don't let him take Independant or STR
Minima. STR Minima is blatant point-mining, as the PC is _SURE_ to have at
least 28 STR. And Independant is plain stupid (sorry, Bob, it got busted.
Too bad about those points, huh?).
> I want to give him a movement power, namely Swinging, in the form
>of an Arrow with a line attached to it. How do I simulate this Sf/x,
>considering it will take time and probally a Skill roll to get the arrow
>into the object in question. It would be impossible for him to use it
>in rapid sucession (like a Spider-Guy would...), or on objects that are
>too dense for the arrow to penetrate. If he has one recoverable charge,
>could he just pluck it using the cord attached to it?
Sure, that works. X" Swinging, One Recoverable Charge, Requires an OCV roll.
> Would the focus
>be the sing line itself, the arrow, or the bow?
The bow and arrow. Make them one Focus. If you lose the bow, you lose any
ranged ability (this falls under 'SFX').
>Would it be Linked to
>the previous attack,
Could be, but doesn't have to be. Could 'require a charge from the RKA'
(-1/4) as another limitation.
>and if it were, would it cost additional END to
>fire (or would you just buy it with the Limitation: Charges)? What
>is the DEF and BODY of a swing line?
Not a lot.
>How long is it?
Probably about 1/2 the inches in your Swinging.
>Would it
>add any bonuses to climbing (and how fast could he climb up it)?
Some bonuses (or ignore a climbing roll, you've got a rope). Climbing would
be 1/2 the inches in the Swinging, off the top of my head - or maybe equal
to 1/2 his Superleap (STR/5 if he has no Superleap).
> ....can anyone out there think of the numerous Sf/x of a piece of rope?
You don't want SFX, you want powers that can fit into the SFX.
>Sliding across it from an elevation,
Swinging.
> using it to choke an enemy
Buy the 'Choke Hold' martial maneuver or a NND Hand Attack.
>tripping
>or 'clotheslining' a number of goons running itno your line of fire,
Martial Throw or limited Telekinesis.
>entangling someone with a 'bounced' shot,
Entangle.
> rappling, climbing (again),
>shooting it into a helecopter so the brick in your part can tug it down,
Stretching.
>having other people on it at the same time, tying yourself down to a street
>lamp while Dr. Wind conjures up a storm....
Knockback Resistance.
how would these translate into
>game terms? ...and how much weight could it support? What if it missed?!?
Champions doesn't handle ordinary rope too well...
The easy route:
15 Variable Power Pool: Piece of Rope [15]
6 VPP Control: No Time (+1), Limited Powers (-1/2), OAF - Piece of Rope (-1)
3 VPP Skill: Rope-Work [DEX-based]
--
24 points, and plenty handy. BTW, using a piece of rope to 'entangle'
someone isn't trivial, and should be bought as a separate power (a 15 AP
Entangle isn't worth much anyways). Rope shouldn't rate more than DEF 2-3
anyways, as anyone with a knife can go through it in seconds. Define it as
steel cable and say it's got 6 DEF, or as Unobtanium rope and make it
indestructible.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 15:08:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
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> > Of course, to be an equal opportunity insulter, the Mac-ers have
> > it good. At least they will be getting a real OS. The microsoft clones
> > have to wiat around for a product that will give them even less control
> > over their computer.
>
> The sad thing is, I DO use Win95...
Hey, just because I insult the product doesn't mean I don't use
it. A summer of installing and working with Win95 convinced me to switch
away from the DOS6.2/Win3.1 system when I upgraded my computer. Far too
many programs, mostly games, need a DOS environment. Far too many also
need a Win95 environment (including the new Creation Workshop, I believe).
I'm happier with 95 than I wasn with 3.1, if only because I've put
together a host of tricks to tweak it and prevent (most) crashes -- I know
how to hack a registry, buddy.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to cross-platform products of the
future that will free me to go with a graphical Unix box. Corel
OfficeSuite is just the first, and I believe Netscape 5 will be as well.
Now if only the computer game industry will move that way as well. (Yeah
right). 'Till then, I have to get my Unix fix by telnetting in to my
school account -- nothing's gonna make me give up my pine.
Now, to bring this back to Champions -- anyone besides me been
tempted to run a session or two with Bill Gates as the big villian? Next
time I'm in the mood for humor I'm gonna do something of the sort. Or
maybe Foxbat kidnaps him for some reason . . . hmmm. Nope, won't work,
the players wouldn't want to rescue him.
-Tim Gilberg
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Bright Futures...
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 14:23:33 -0700
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-----Original Message-----
From: Sparx <psansone@i1.net>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Saturday, October 11, 1997 9:04 AM
Subject: Bright Futures...
<snip>
>I'd
like to
>get my hands on Star Hero, anyone know if that is possible? Well,
take it
>easy and talk at you later.
Off hand, I couldn't say where you would find a copy of Star Hero, but
I have something almost as good and maybe better. At
http://galahad.xstor.com/~johntabe/files/strhero2.zip , you can
download the "beta" version of Star Hero, 4th Ed. rules. So far as I
know, the completed, playtested version isn't out yet, but this is
pretty good.
Filksinger
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:13:35 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Antinomy/Tragedy/No-Win Situations and GMing Question #1
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>>>matter, you did, and then a Ranger team picked you up." Honestly, it *was*
>>>a No-Win situation, and there was no conceivable way out.
>>
>>Hey, this is Champions we're talking here!
>>The explosion threw him through a dimensional portal!
>Even if a conventional explosion could have thrown him through such a portal
Hey, who knows what they were messing with at that base...
>(perhaps due to 'residue' from when he went to Hell, although the 'residue'
>would be on his Powered Armor, which he wasn't wearing), he would have no
>conceivable way of returning from said dimension, without several solo
>adventures.
And what's wrong with that?
>>He was captured via teleportation by his enemies!
>The enemies were the ones who blew him up.
Only one set of enemies?? <boggle> Any self-respecting hero should've
annoyed several dozen villian organizations...
>And their Teleportation
>technology isn't anywhere *near* reliable enough.
Doesn't have to be reliable - just lucky.
>>He was rescued by a magician who needed his services!
>The magicians who would be powerful enough to find him and get him out
>*right before he died* would be powerful enough not to need his services.
Hardly. Mages are forever suffering these niggling restrictions (can't go
there, can't do this, can't touch that) that the need for minions is
ever-constant.
>>It wasn't really him, just his android duplicate!
>But it *was* him, and if it wasn't he wouldn't've earned the XP. Plus, no
>true androids, yet.
Not that they know of <nudge, wink>.
>>He fell through a fissure in the foundations and came face to face with the
>terrible Mole-Men!
>GAH! NO! Nope, no Mole-Men. Unless it was another of those
>Extradimensional Portals, then see above.
Don't like the Mole-Men, huh? That's your preogative, I guess. How about
Lava-Men? :-)
>>He was pulled from the rubble and rebuilt into a military cyborg!
>This one's possible, but not what Joel wants. At all.
Okay, somebody who owes him a favor rescues him. Same difference.
>>He got really, really, really lucky and was able to dig his way out of the
>rubble...
>Again, this is possible. Maybe that's what happened, he was just too
>delirious to remember.
>>
>>Sheesh. In Champions, death is the _easy_ way out.
>>
>Thanks for belittling me, though.
You're welcome. :-) My point being (I gotta remember to use more smileys!)
that Champions is supposed to simulate comic book action. And comic book
characters _don't_ die if they can possibly sell more books. Even if they do
die, they can come back if the possibility of selling more books because of
it crops up. Death is, in effect, just another 'radiation accident' for the
PC to live through.
>I know you're trying to poke holes in my assertion that there was "no way
>out." If *he* came up with an idea, I'd probably let him have it. But he
>didn't. HE asked ME, "How did I get out?" So, it doesn't matter.
Okay, HE doesn't remember - but later, be sure to tell him 'why' and 'how'
and 'what it's gonna cost him'. Something like this has 'plot hook' written
all over it...
>Okay, I just responded to this, and wanted to clarify my response. I
>realize you were probably not attempting to belittle me, or my gameworld,
>but at most my assertion that it was a "No-Win" situation.
Basically, that was it - more like your assertion that it was a 'no-escape'
situation - that you couldn't think up a reasonable explanation. Like that
he dove through the 'secret escape tunnel' to safety (every villian base has
at least a half-dozen of these, otherwise the villians would never get
away...). Though my own leanings are towards something more dramatic...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 15:19:43 -0800
Organization: Terminal BBS (403)327-9731
Subject: Poll for OS
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-=> Quoting Wade Mann to Mike Lehmann <=-
>I am currently developing some software that might be released through
>Hero Games. I am trying to figure out the platforms that I should
>support.
>
>How many of you are using win 3.x, win95/nt, and/or Mac?
>
>Any information received would be appreciated.
Dos 6.2 and Windows 3.1... Aren't I behind the times? <g>
mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net - - - - - Justice Krewe / Enigma Watch GM
- - - - - - http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html - - - - - -
... "My favorite color? Red. No, BluAAAAAHHH!"
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:34:55 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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At <who knows>10/11/97, filksinger mostly you wrote:
>It's place, generally, is only with players who, sometimes for a
>change of pace, want to plumb their characters depths rather than
>worry about who wins or loses the battle. Even then, it is only for
>those who want to plumb tragedy, pain, guilt and loss. Definitely not
>for everyone.
>
>Perhaps background would explain.
>
>I had a group for a short while which consisted primarily of some
>drama students who wanted to do some roleplaying. An additional
>student wanted to try some soulsearching roleplaying rather than
>beat-up-the-badguy roleplaying, for a change of pace.
<snip>
>Basically, this only really works if the players want a game dedicated
>to "plumbing depths and (what they call) 'real' roleplaying", rather
>than the sort of thing that you (and, actually, I, usually) prefer. I
>suspect that a large part of the reason why we are having this
>discussion is that these players were probably better suited to a game
>of "Vampire" than "Champions".
>
<snip>
>I have seen groups that are so heavily into "playing a role" that they
>don't bother with any sort of dice, or even rules. They decide whether
>or not their characters win or lose, prevail or fail, simply by which
>they think fits the character and the aspects of the character they
>want to explore. These people play role playing games as if they were
>soap operas, with magic or super powers thrown in for an exotic
>flavor. This sort of group actually likes this sort of thing, as part
>of a
>general diet. I would like to play it once or twice, but that is just
>too far.
><snipy-wippy>
>Well, yes, even in my single extreme example above, they had all kinds
>of roleplaying options. Saving both worlds was the only one they
>didn't have.
>
>Filksinger
>
Sorry to start this up again,
all these arguments(and some more bits i snipped)
seem to imply (albeit with a great deal of quotation marking)
that pre-defining a scenario and playing something depressing
is good role playing. All statements about players individual
tastes aside, nothing can be further from the truth:
A) predetermined story arcs fly in the face of improvisation, which is
an integral part of role-playing
B) deep, moody angst-rot is not any more valid than happy, goofy hyjinks.
please, let us not fall into the eternal pitt of pretentious 'white wolf'
stule hackneyed gloom!
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:39:46 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Antinomy/Tragedy/No-Win Situations and GMing Question #1
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At 12:06 PM 10/11/97 +0600, you wrote:
> There is room in some games for tragedy, antinomy (like Nimbus final
>scene, above), and No-Win situations. They're not for everyone, or all the
>time (unless you have some peculiar tastes), but they're viable anyway.
>
> This is pretty much also a nod to Filksinger and Michael Jones, who
>both have put some good points up on the list.
>
>- Jerry
>
>
yay!! we're number one! we're number one! *lol*
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:58:18 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
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Mann, Wade wrote:
>
> I am currently developing some software that might be released through
> Hero Games. I am trying to figure out the platforms that I should
> support.
>
> How many of you are using win 3.x, win95/nt, and/or Mac?
>
> Any information received would be appreciated.
I still use Windows 3.1 (not even 3.11? You barBARian!), and am
currently still actively resisting continuing pressure to upgrade to
Win'95. I also know a few people who don't like '95 either, and are
sticking to 3.x as well.
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 11:02:12 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: overlapping reality junctures (qwas: all that stuff)
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At 03:38 PM 10/11/97 -0400, varios people said:
>>it was a No-Win situation. He was trapped deep inside a complex that it
>>took him several hours to completely infiltrate. Then the countdown timer
>>was set for 30 seconds... Now, I'm back at college, and if Joel wants to
>>play, I've already told him that he could be Force, that he would be able to
>>have escaped. He said, "Cool. How did I get out?" I told him, "It doesn't
>>matter, you did, and then a Ranger team picked you up." Honestly, it *was*
>>a No-Win situation, and there was no conceivable way out.
>
>Hey, this is Champions we're talking here! The explosion threw him through a
>dimensional portal! He was captured via teleportation by his enemies! He was
>rescued by a magician who needed his services! It wasn't really him, just
>his android duplicate! He fell through a fissure in the foundations and came
>face to face with the terrible Mole-Men! He was pulled from the rubble and
>rebuilt into a military cyborg! He got really, really, really lucky and was
>able to dig his way out of the rubble...
>
>Sheesh. In Champions, death is the _easy_ way out.
>
i think what we have here (and in the previous discussion as well)is a case of
overlapping reality. I suppose you can say antinomopoly and stuff like that exists
at a slightly extreme edge of a curve. In the examples above (end of campaign, ect)
you have two seperate campaigns - one ends and the other begins. NOW, in the 'end'
campaign perspective, yes, it's a no-win situation. The same way peter parker
loseing his powers was probably meant as in the 'final' miniseries. BUT in the 'beginning' campaign, that decision is no longer valid, so it's OK to have
the guy come back and have been miraculously saved- plus i think in the genre
(superheroic, thought it sounds a little lower-tech than most) this sort of thing
(he's deffinitley dead. .. no wait he's alive!) is a convention of most settings.
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 18:06:01 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
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Mike Lehmann wrote:
>
> -=> Quoting Wade Mann to Mike Lehmann <=-
>
> >I am currently developing some software that might be released through
> >Hero Games. I am trying to figure out the platforms that I should
> >support.
> >
> >How many of you are using win 3.x, win95/nt, and/or Mac?
> >
> >Any information received would be appreciated.
>
> Dos 6.2 and Windows 3.1... Aren't I behind the times? <g>
No, no, we're just non-conformists. Those 'high-tech' jocks only do
it to feel like they 'belong'.... :-)>
-Capt. Spith
>
> mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net - - - - - Justice Krewe / Enigma Watch GM
> - - - - - - http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html - - - - - -
>
> ... "My favorite color? Red. No, BluAAAAAHHH!"
> ~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Internet: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net <<<<<<<<<<<
> The TERMINAL BBS Fidonet; 1:358/17
> Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada 1:358/18
> This message was processed by NetXpres (403)327-9741
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 18:14:19 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: question #1. ..
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happyelf! wrote:
>
> At 11:25 PM 10/8/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
> >>but it *isn't* the real world- just the gm's opinion, which is often
> >quite silly. . .
> >>i.e. 'super martial arts are real, but backpack nukes aren't'
> >
> >Of course it isn't the real world- it's a game. However, I fail to see
> >why an attempt at creating a "real world"-imitating, high realism
> >game, should be criticized in this manner.
> >
> >Filksinger
> >
> >
>
> becasue it ISN'T REAL!! it's just the gm's assumptions, and the more
> arrogant gm's are in general about this sort of plot enforcment,
> them more likely restrictive games will be. .. . .
It seems to me, 'Elf, that you seem to have the attitude that certain
game-world configurations are unacceptable to play in. And YOU talk
about arrogance! Just because you have a narrowminded attitude about
what level of fantasy is acceptable doesn't mean that everybody else
fits into your parameters. Would it be fair for a group of PCs to be
forced to play in a 4-colour comic-book reality when they all wanted to
play in 'gritty street-justice realism'?
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 11:25:57 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
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(this is all just my opinion, ect.. )
At 12:47 PM 10/11/97 +0000, you wrote:
>I'd like to borrow peoples thoughts on time lines. I'm trying to
>construct a time line for my champions campaign, and I figured that
>some help would be in order. Responses need not be limited to
>SuperHero worlds. I'm fairly certain that time lines for fantasy, or
>science-fiction worlds follow the same basic rules.
>
>
hows about actual contributions? even if not fer yer own campaign,
but just fer fun? ne1 else one the list interested in
a cooperative 'generic' superheroic timeline? just for the hell of it? *eg*
>Some questions that might help replies be more useful.
>
>1. What is a time line?
> - A time line is a chronologically ordered history. A time line
> records memorable, and important events for posterity.
> - I think I have this one covered, but in any project it's important
> to define just what you are working with. So if you think I missed
> something feel free to post such.
>
>2. What purposes do fictional time lines serve?
>
often useful- if they are complex enough. .for instance for time-travel.
i have a huge super-duper timeline which is ripped off a historical one
plus i've added super-stuff and things like that to it. . .it's st out
like a flow chart so you can see generally what causes what, and when
cultures interact. .. in a time-travel scenario of mine the pc's went
back in time and killed a race of nasty dinosaur-men in prehistoric
south america. NOW, i look on my trusty history flowchart. . . aha!
those doni-mean and a band of FEATHERES SERPANTS in south america
wipe each other out in my timeline. . .sooo, when the conquistadors
get to south america (i think it wuz them) the find a massive empire
ruled by feathered serpants! *eg* and if the pc's get there too they
can decide what to do. .. but hell, let's face it- it's not like
the europeans DESERVE to be rescued. ..
>3. How do I construct a fictional time line?
>
structurally, i'd say do a flow-diagram, even though it's not really
'historially correct'. AND tie it into a map or two. . .
>4. How do I use a fictional time line?
>
in copntemplation and modification. make changes and additions after an
adventure, DON'T attempt to use it as an on-the spot resource (believe
me, nothing slows the game more'n a flowchart- cept maybe roleaster crit
tables)
>Vance Scott
>
>Vanquisher of all foes.
>
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Antinomy/Tragedy/No-Win Situations and GMing Question #1
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 18:35:15 -0700
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-----Original Message-----
From: John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Saturday, October 11, 1997 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: Antinomy/Tragedy/No-Win Situations and GMing Question #1
>>it was a No-Win situation. He was trapped deep inside a complex
that it
>>took him several hours to completely infiltrate. Then the countdown
timer
>>was set for 30 seconds... Now, I'm back at college, and if Joel
wants to
>>play, I've already told him that he could be Force, that he would be
able to
>>have escaped. He said, "Cool. How did I get out?" I told him, "It
doesn't
>>matter, you did, and then a Ranger team picked you up." Honestly,
it *was*
>>a No-Win situation, and there was no conceivable way out.
>
>Hey, this is Champions we're talking here! The explosion threw him
through a
>dimensional portal! He was captured via teleportation by his enemies!
He was
>rescued by a magician who needed his services! It wasn't really him,
just
>his android duplicate! He fell through a fissure in the foundations
and came
>face to face with the terrible Mole-Men! He was pulled from the
rubble and
>rebuilt into a military cyborg! He got really, really, really lucky
and was
>able to dig his way out of the rubble...
Well, if it hadn't been preplanned as a clear cut, no way out
scenario, with both the player and the GM in agreement that the
character was going to die, then any of the above would be a
possibility, depending upon the campaign world. There should be ways
out, whether mundane or fanciful, if it was a normal scenario. Of
course, after it was over, and they changed their minds, all of them
again become viable possibilities.
However, none of those should happen in a scenario such as he
described. Why? Because it was intended, from the beginning, as a "you
will die, there is no way out" scenario. The player went in knowing
full well that his character would die, and the GM played it that way.
If I was told I was getting a heroic death for my character, went
through the paces, and some cheesy cop-out was used to save the
character, then I personally would feel cheated.
Of course, changing your mind later is OK, if you both agree.
>Sheesh. In Champions, death is the _easy_ way out.
Yes, I suppose so. However, a "heroic death" where you don't die kind
of loses something, don't you think?
Filksinger
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 11:44:54 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: question #1. ..
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At 06:14 PM 10/11/97 -0700, you wrote:
>> becasue it ISN'T REAL!! it's just the gm's assumptions, and the more
>> arrogant gm's are in general about this sort of plot enforcment,
>> them more likely restrictive games will be. .. . .
>
> It seems to me, 'Elf, that you seem to have the attitude that certain
>game-world configurations are unacceptable to play in. And YOU talk
>about arrogance! Just because you have a narrowminded attitude about
>what level of fantasy is acceptable doesn't mean that everybody else
>fits into your parameters. Would it be fair for a group of PCs to be
>forced to play in a 4-colour comic-book reality when they all wanted to
>play in 'gritty street-justice realism'?
>
> -Capt. Spith
>
no!! *yeesh* no 'gritty' setting is realistic, that's all i'm saying. .
NO rpg is! a gm should keep that in mind or they will become arrogant.
I NEVER said there were certain settings you couldn't play in, i NEVER
even came CLOSE to saying that.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
Mail-Copies-To: never
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>>>>> "GH" == Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> writes:
GH> I think it would be a good thing to identify some of the "grey areas",
GH> areas where the vagueness of the official rules has an impact upon the
GH> way someone runs his campaign.
Remember that Hero is a toolkit system: use what you need, ignore what you
do not, and season to taste for your particular campaign. Sometimes the
rulebook is deliberately vague so as to allow the GM to interpret things in
a way appropriate to his campaign.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 11 Oct 1997 22:02:34 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "GH" == Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> writes:
GH> The ones I can think of right now are:
GH> --Linked (No debates, please!)
The only reason that Linked is vague is because nobody bothered to
seriously question Hero Games about it until fairly recently. Besides, it
is not that Linked is vague, it is that the description is badly phrased.
GH> --Characteristics bought as Powers (with regard to Normal
GH> Characteristic Maxima)
Strictly speaking, Characteristics bought as Powers should not be exempt
from NCM. If the GM rules that they are for whatever reason (and Focus is
not a valid reason since a Limitation should *never* be of benefit to the
character) then the NCM bonus for that character should be reduced
proportionally to how frequently his Characteristics are exceeded.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
\ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:17:07 -0700
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On Saturday, October 11, 1997 6:02 PM, happyelf! wrote:
>At <who knows>10/11/97, filksinger mostly you wrote:
<snip>
>Sorry to start this up again,
>all these arguments(and some more bits i snipped)
>seem to imply (albeit with a great deal of quotation marking)
>that pre-defining a scenario and playing something depressing
>is good role playing. All statements about players individual
>tastes aside, nothing can be further from the truth:
I wasn't trying to make it out that way, but it could be read that
way. That was the attitude of some of the players, I believe, though
not all.
>A) predetermined story arcs fly in the face of improvisation, which
is
>an integral part of role-playing
Well, playing a role, as in acting, often involves an entire script,
already laid out. However, that said, I agree with you. In the case I
mentioned above, we simply decided to explore in a particular
direction, not with a predetermined story. It was, for the most part
(i.e. not entirely, I agree), no more predetermined than most other
stories in many other games. After all, many campaigns and storylines
have a general destination in mind, with certain stops along the way
more or less planned. Ours just happened to include deliberate
tragedy, moral angst, etc.
>B) deep, moody angst-rot is not any more valid than happy, goofy
hyjinks.
>please, let us not fall into the eternal pitt of pretentious 'white
wolf'
>stule hackneyed gloom!
Agreed, it isn't superior role playing. It is _different_ role
playing. Yes, they did, some of them, consider it superior to other
role playing, but then we Champions players often think that our way
of roleplaying is superior. It isn't, really, it's just different.
I agree with both of your points above, again in general. This wasn't
a case of "superior role playing", but of wanting to play something
different than typical for a Champions game, using the Champions rules
and a superhero background. They may have considered it superior, but
it was merely different than typical. Not my usual style, but then
I'll role play almost anything, on occasion. I don't like angst-ridden
doom-and-gloom tragedy as a rule, but it was actually kind of fun for
a little while.
Angst, gloom, fatalism, etc. aren't worse things to role play than
typical four-color superhero antics, but they are different. As I
said, I wouldn't run these storylines with most players.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: overlapping reality junctures (qwas: all that stuff)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:25:55 -0700
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On 10/11/97 6:15 PM, happyelf! wrote:
>i think what we have here (and in the previous discussion as well)is
a case of
>overlapping reality. I suppose you can say antinomopoly and stuff
like that exists
>at a slightly extreme edge of a curve.
Absolutely.
>In the examples above (end of campaign, ect)
>you have two seperate campaigns - one ends and the other begins. NOW,
in the 'end'
>campaign perspective, yes, it's a no-win situation. The same way
peter parker
>loseing his powers was probably meant as in the 'final' miniseries.
BUT in the 'beginning' campaign, that decision is no longer valid, so
it's OK to have
>the guy come back and have been miraculously saved- plus i think in
the genre
>(superheroic, thought it sounds a little lower-tech than most) this
sort of thing
>(he's deffinitley dead. .. no wait he's alive!) is a convention of
most settings.
There's something wrong here, but I can't quite put my finger on...No,
wait! Oh, my God!
WE AGREE!
I think we even actually understand each other. Amazing. We did it.
Now, if we can just avoid discussing who convinced who....<BEG>
Seriously, I think we've both made our points on this one, and reached
an actual agreement and understanding. Feels good, doesn't it? (A bit
weird, maybe....<G>)
Filksinger
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:19:19 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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At 07:17 PM 10/11/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>I wasn't trying to make it out that way, but it could be read that
>way. That was the attitude of some of the players, I believe, though
>not all.
>
i understand this point, i should have been more clear. . .
>>A) predetermined story arcs fly in the face of improvisation, which
>is
>>an integral part of role-playing
>
>
>Well, playing a role, as in acting, often involves an entire script,
>already laid out. However, that said, I agree with you. In the case I
>mentioned above, we simply decided to explore in a particular
>direction, not with a predetermined story. It was, for the most part
>(i.e. not entirely, I agree), no more predetermined than most other
>stories in many other games. After all, many campaigns and storylines
>have a general destination in mind, with certain stops along the way
>more or less planned. Ours just happened to include deliberate
>tragedy, moral angst, etc.
>
as i mentioned in another thread, i don't play or gm with any particular
'flavour' of emotion in mind. i tend to just go with the story and see
what types of feelings it leads to. . which can be all sorts of things, really. .
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:37:12 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: overlapping reality junctures (qwas: all that stuff)
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At 07:25 PM 10/11/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>There's something wrong here, but I can't quite put my finger on...No,
>wait! Oh, my God!
>
>WE AGREE!
>
>I think we even actually understand each other. Amazing. We did it.
>
>Now, if we can just avoid discussing who convinced who....<BEG>
>
>Seriously, I think we've both made our points on this one, and reached
>an actual agreement and understanding. Feels good, doesn't it? (A bit
>weird, maybe....<G>)
>
>Filksinger
>
>
ah, yes, as i've said before, since we both know we're right,
we were BOUND to start agreeing on something eventually. . *g*
and as for the example above, the idea of reality and campaigns
is an interesting one, which also leads to more constructive
plot copncepts- for instance the hero in one campaign becomes a
villan in another, despite acting exactly the same way. . .
This sort of dualistic perspective i find is very useful for
working different concepts hrough a campaign. Sure, you want the
800 gerblorkian refugees with their evil virus to be a moral quandry
when they reach earth, but it's ok to treat them slightly less seriously
when the pc's meet them on the galactic rim. . .
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Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 23:59:53 -0400
From: Charles Badger <wbandsis@westco.net>
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
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At 17:58 10/11/97 -0700, Captain Spith wrote:
>Mann, Wade wrote:
>>
>> I am currently developing some software that might be released through
>> Hero Games. I am trying to figure out the platforms that I should
>> support.
>>
>> How many of you are using win 3.x, win95/nt, and/or Mac?
>>
>> Any information received would be appreciated.
>
> I still use Windows 3.1 (not even 3.11? You barBARian!), and am
>currently still actively resisting continuing pressure to upgrade to
>Win'95. I also know a few people who don't like '95 either, and are
>sticking to 3.x as well.
I have computers with both dos/windows for worgroups and win95. I used to
be part of the group that wasn't goin to upgrade but working on a friend's
machine convinced me otherwise. Win 95 is a lot harder to crash when
programming then WFW or Win3.x. That was what finally convinced me. I still
make fun of the company who makes them also but then again I wouldn't want
to see them disappear since my job requires the presence of the operating
system. So like the company who manufacturer's it I have to side with the
known vir...., devil..... :)
You know why I was saying the first.... because it's on more and more
machines every year, takes up system resources and doesn't give them back
all the qualifications of a virus.
-----
Charles T. Badger
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 00:54:05 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Customizing it.
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Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> >
> > Hm. I'd understood that there was a Pilipino, which is to Tagalog what
> >Spanglish is to Spanish (a cross-breeding with English).
> >
> I'm not sure about that, but as a pale white guy (who has to
> Filipino players), I do know that Tagalog is only one dialect used in the
> Philippines. Nimbus (one of my guys) said his 'rents speak a different
> dialect but had to learn Tagalog because it became the national language by
> default.
> I believe this is correct, but I can't double-check, as Nimbus and
> Force are out of town this weekend.
Well, I don't have all the details, but I do have a little knowledge
from when I lived in Hawaii (EVERYONE spoke their own languages at
home....)
There are several seperate Filipino language dialects which do not
happily overlap with each other, and one of them, probably Tagalog, is
in fact an Official National Language in the Philippines.
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 01:25:13 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Pushing
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> >>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
>
> JD> Which Powers are Push-able? Just Attack Powers? Are Movement
> JD> Powers fair game? What about Teleportation? Would you allow a
> JD> character to Push his Force Field? And how long would *that* last?
>
> S.S.Rat counters;
>
> First point: there is no such thing as "attack powers". There are powers
> that may be used both offensively and defensively.
>
> Official Rule: any power that uses END may be pushed. Pushing constant or
> continuous powers lasts until the character's next action phase starts.
>
> GM's call: powers that have the 0 END advantage may be pushed. The pushed
> points should probably still cost END, though.
I would rule that any power costing END may be pushed. Official
rules aside, I allow for powers with the 'costs END' limitation to be
pushed as well. I would also rule that Powers bought to 0END could only
be pushed if they are not purchased with mechanical SFX; You can't
'push' a bullet from a gun to do more damage. If a power bought with
0END were to be pushed, though, it should be at the 'normal' END cost
for pushing.
>
> JD> Are partial Pushes acceptable? ex. A 10d6 EB pushed to only
> JD> 11d6 (assume no Advantages).
>
> Sure, at least in supers games where you decide how many active points you
> wish to push.
The games I used to play in had a great Pushing rule. One could
decide either to push by up to 10 active points for up to 10 END
(1pt/1END), OR make an EGO roll for BIG pushes. Every 1 the EGO roll
was bested by was 5 active points of push (at the same END cost rate),
HOWEVER - there was a cost. The first 10 a.p. cost only END, the next 5
also did 1D6 damage, the next 5 points +1D6(2D6), the next 5 +2D6(4D6),
the next 5 +4D6(8D6), etc. If the self-inflicted damage from pushing
exceeds the character's STUN, (s)he starts taking BODY (at a rate of 1/3
of the remaining STUN damage)
I.E., Capt. Spith has to push his STR to break out of an Entangle and
stop his teammate from killing someone and stepping all over his Code
against Killing. He makes his EGO roll by 6 (rolling 6 vs. his <12 EGO
roll) and pushes his STR by 30, costing 30 END and causing himself 8D6
STUN damage straight through. almost made it. Next phase, the villian
has already been killed, so Spith's Code vs. Killing drives him berserk
and he has to try again. He rolls a *4!* enabling a 40-point push, but
he decides to be conservative and only push 30 again. 30 END (which is
more than he has, so burns some STUN as END) + 8D6 more STUN (which is
more than he has, so he starts taking BODY), and breaks free of his
Entangle with a half phase to spare, whereupon he falls to the floor
twitching in a self-imposed near-coma.
It's a great tool for allowing great pushes, but still gives a
cause-and-effect from exceeding one's own abilities...
BTW, that is an actual event from a game I was in several years
ago...
-Capt. (Ouch, that one hurt) Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 01:25:13 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Pushing
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> >>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
>
> JD> Which Powers are Push-able? Just Attack Powers? Are Movement
> JD> Powers fair game? What about Teleportation? Would you allow a
> JD> character to Push his Force Field? And how long would *that* last?
>
> S.S.Rat counters;
>
> First point: there is no such thing as "attack powers". There are powers
> that may be used both offensively and defensively.
>
> Official Rule: any power that uses END may be pushed. Pushing constant or
> continuous powers lasts until the character's next action phase starts.
>
> GM's call: powers that have the 0 END advantage may be pushed. The pushed
> points should probably still cost END, though.
I would rule that any power costing END may be pushed. Official
rules aside, I allow for powers with the 'costs END' limitation to be
pushed as well. I would also rule that Powers bought to 0END could only
be pushed if they are not purchased with mechanical SFX; You can't
'push' a bullet from a gun to do more damage. If a power bought with
0END were to be pushed, though, it should be at the 'normal' END cost
for pushing.
>
> JD> Are partial Pushes acceptable? ex. A 10d6 EB pushed to only
> JD> 11d6 (assume no Advantages).
>
> Sure, at least in supers games where you decide how many active points you
> wish to push.
The games I used to play in had a great Pushing rule. One could
decide either to push by up to 10 active points for up to 10 END
(1pt/1END), OR make an EGO roll for BIG pushes. Every 1 the EGO roll
was bested by was 5 active points of push (at the same END cost rate),
HOWEVER - there was a cost. The first 10 a.p. cost only END, the next 5
also did 1D6 damage, the next 5 points +1D6(2D6), the next 5 +2D6(4D6),
the next 5 +4D6(8D6), etc. If the self-inflicted damage from pushing
exceeds the character's STUN, (s)he starts taking BODY (at a rate of 1/3
of the remaining STUN damage)
I.E., Capt. Spith has to push his STR to break out of an Entangle and
stop his teammate from killing someone and stepping all over his Code
against Killing. He makes his EGO roll by 6 (rolling 6 vs. his <12 EGO
roll) and pushes his STR by 30, costing 30 END and causing himself 8D6
STUN damage straight through. almost made it. Next phase, the villian
has already been killed, so Spith's Code vs. Killing drives him berserk
and he has to try again. He rolls a *4!* enabling a 40-point push, but
he decides to be conservative and only push 30 again. 30 END (which is
more than he has, so burns some STUN as END) + 8D6 more STUN (which is
more than he has, so he starts taking BODY), and breaks free of his
Entangle with a half phase to spare, whereupon he falls to the floor
twitching in a self-imposed near-coma.
It's a great tool for allowing great pushes, but still gives a
cause-and-effect from exceeding one's own abilities...
BTW, that is an actual event from a game I was in several years
ago...
-Capt. (Ouch, that one hurt) Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 02:08:04 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Tragic Tale of a Teenage Dinosaur-Man
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ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>
> I'm new at this Champions thing, so bear with me...
> I'm planning on running a Scenario with a few of my friends. One
> of the characters is an ancient Dinosaur-Man awakened from his
> millenium slumber. He's very big, and weighs alot (15 points of
> Growth and Density Increase [one level each], 0 END, Persistent,
> Always on).
<So how do I kep his growth from being drained...>
I would have to go with the general house rule answer. If something
is 0END,Persistent,Always On, it shouldn't be able to be drained. No
wait, all the Characteristics are like that.... Alright, let's try this;
You can't drain size, but if hit with a drain which would normally
affect a character's growth, figure the effect based on draining the
growth, then reduce all growth EFFECTS by the appropriate amount, but
keep the size and mass; a large enough cfharacter with his associated
STR drained may not even be able to support his own weight! Keeping the
mass will still give the character the KB resistence, but should also
require extra STR expenditure to accomodate the move the effectively
heavier body.
More generally, this can be applied to ANY physically altering
AlwaysOn power; drain would affect all the associated benefits, but not
affect the size/mass/limbs, etc.
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 02:16:17 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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Mark Lemming wrote:
>
> Mike Lehmann wrote:
> >
> > -=> Quoting Rick Ryker to Mike Lehmann <=-
> >
> > RR> HERO changed the rules so that you CAN have Density and Growth
> > affect your figured stats for an advantage cost.
> >
> > Must have been a recent change, or a really old one that got fixed
> > along the way.
>
> It existed in Golden Age of Champions by Firebird(?). Not the GAC that
> was printed by Hero games. So it was based on the Third edition anyhow.
> +1/4 for growth and +1/2 for DI if I remember.
> I don't think it was ever official Hero.
I don't remember ever seeing anything official, but my group always
used 'affects figured CHAR' as a +1/4 advantage on Growth or D.I.
My current house rule regarding this is that any power that is bought
as AlwaysOn (Okay, okay, '0END,Persistent,AlwaysOn'), automatically
affects any appropriate figured Characteristics, largely to keep ongoing
bookeeping of character points simpler as experience accrues and is
spent. I have no 'cost-effectiveness/balance' reason for this, just the
idea that "If it's an innate ability, it's treated the same as the rest
of the STATS."
But it _is_ just a house rule....
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 02:57:29 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: CHAR MAXes
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Robert A. West wrote:
> I agree that there is a slight unclarity about how to handle Adjustment
> Powers.
>
> On the side to include them under the rule:
> - Adjustment Powers *are* powers that raise characteristics.
> - They do not affect figured stats, just like Growth and D.I.
> - Heromaker implements it that way.
>
> On the side to exclude them under the rule:
> - Adjustment powers that *lower* characteristics are not
> included under the original rule. This produces some
> very odd asymmetries, particularly with Transfer.
> - If a list of examples is intended, it generally so indicates.
> Unqualified lists that can plausibly be exhaustive are
> generally meant to be exhaustive.
> - Since Hero did not include Density Increase in the Size Powers
> (where IMHO it logically belongs), they have no easy way
> to indicate Growth and Density Increase as a group. The
> actual phrasing may be as good as can be expected.
> - When in doubt, don't nullify a disadvantage.
>
> On balance, I would hold that Adjustment Powers are subject to
> the doubling rule, largely because the asymmetry strikes me as
> implausible. I have no doubt whatsoever that, under the rule written,
> Characteristics purchased as powers are subject to doubling. Lord only
> knows what was *intended*.
I've always played that *Powers* don't fall under the NCM banner; if
a character with NCM and 18 STR turns on his 4 levels of growth, he now
has 38 STR - he already has a limitation on the STR that he pays for the
growth END every phase (or paid points for reduced END) PLUS the END for
any STR used.
If the Growth or D.I. is 'innate' (0END,Persistent,AlwaysOn), then
the STR (and any other Characteristics gained) are figured in BEFORE any
other points are paid for stats.
I.E. Mongo bought 1 level D.I. and 1 level Growth AlwaysOn, and has
NCM. He starts out his CHARs with 20 STR and 11 BODY (among other
things). Any STR he buys in addition will be at double cost, and he can
only buy 9 more BODY at regular cost.
I.E. Mongo's brother Spud has 3 levels of growth, AlwaysOn. I would
not chrge him extra or reduce his STR foe exceeding 20 STR ('Base' STR
would be 25), but any STR he buys will be at double cost.
Armour bought as physical armour, or any other power-based defenses
(especially if bought through a focus) do not count against the CHAR
MAX, since they either a)cost END or b)can be lost/taken away.
An rule I used to implement in reference to NCM, however, affected
the use of Power Modifiers; any EC, VPP, or MP was affected by the NCM.
This is an extrapolation of my 'Characteristics as a "Human Abilities
EC"' concept.
I.E. FireBoy has a flame EC and NCM. He wants 6DC in his EC, which
would run him a base of 30 active points, but NCM doubles the cost over
20 active, so it costs him 40 active points for his powers, thus
20 EC-Flames
20 6D6 EB (30 active, 40 real)
20 15pd/15ed force field (30 act., 40 real)
40 20" flight (40 active, 60 real)
I used this rule in a 150-point superhero game to make the trade off
of power level and variety more significant. It also encouraged players
to keep individual power levels low (NCM was 'free'/0-point disad), and
concentrate on versatility.
<stuff snipped>
> I agree that applying the rule as I interpret it introduces the
> question of whether powered armor might give one character +15 STR and
> another +30 STR. I could see granting waivers on the doubled cost if the
> special effect made it seem silly and the use was not abusive. I also
> think I recall that Defender antedates Normal Characteristic Maxima.
> Could this be an error in conversion to 4th edition?
I've always ruled that various 'temporary' CHAR are not affected by
NCM. As with armour, force field, growth, and Power Armour based CHAR,
these are all seperate form the character's actual physical stats in
that they are not always with the character, and thus are already
limited. The complaint that Powered Armour grants a free loophole from
NCM, is not quite correct; in fact, Powered Armour usually has a Focus
limitation on it, thus should be unavailable often enough to 'pay for'
the bonus. This is OFTEN overlooked by GMs, and thus may seem like a
freebie, but a -1/2 limitation should put the character in harms way
without his/her armor every three or four sessions - that's the reason
for the limitation!
But as stated before, these are all just house rules that I've used
at different times in my RPG career.
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 03:01:07 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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Mike Lehmann wrote:
> I also have a related question.
>
> Under Density Increase and Growth, those powers provide STR, as well as
> either PD/ED (non-resistant) or BODY and STUN, respectively.
>
> I've always worked under the assumption that the STR granted by these
> powers cannot affect figured characteristics, because the power already
> adds to other figured stats (PD or STUN).
>
> However, I noticed such a discrepancy in the "Animals" section (pg
> 196-197, BBB), where (for example) the Horse w/ 15 pts of Growth and 10
> base STR has 5 PD for free (presumably, from it's now 25 points of STR.
> This would seem to imply that such STR *does* apply to figured stats.
I've already mentioned my views on AlwaysOn growth and D.I. in
another post. though I believe that the official line is that they never
affect any figured stats (unless there is actually an official advantage
for it).
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Pushing
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>>>>> "CS" == Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> writes:
CS> I would rule that any power costing END may be pushed. Official
CS> rules aside, I allow for powers with the 'costs END' limitation to be
CS> pushed as well.
Thing is, most powers that do not require Endurance make no sense if you
push them. Push your Life Support, for instance.
CS> I would also rule that Powers bought to 0END could only be pushed if
CS> they are not purchased with mechanical SFX; You can't 'push' a bullet
CS> from a gun to do more damage.
But you *can* push a mechanical arm's Strength beyond its rated limits.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
\ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:50:09 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: The Tragic Tale of Norse God of Thunder and The Mad Bomber
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Greetings Fellows,
I have a question as to the powers/Sf/x of items used in combat.
Norse God of Thunder has his Mystical Mallet that he can throw for
ridiculous ammounts of damage... and it returns.
What is this exactly? Is it a OAF (it can still be Grabbed or
hit with a ranged attack-- but it returns to his hand when thrown
upon his call... It can be deflected and caught by Armored Lativan
Sorcerer when he possess the Power Galatic, preventing the power from
being used because it travels along a physical path)? It is a
recoverable charge (easiest charge to recover in the world, if it is)?
What if there was a thrown object that returned along a certain
predetermined flight path, like the Dreadlocked Hunting Alien's
deadly Spinning Slash-Disk? (I'm thinking either a really limited TK,
a very weird Area of Effect along an ellipitical path, or perhaps even
flight and an AI bought just for the weapon [it's crazy, but it's a hi-tech
'smart' weapon). How do you deal with unusual mysical gizmos like these?
The Mad Bomber (a.k.a Grenado) has a bandoleer of grenades. He
can throw them, or just drom 'em where they lie. The throwing aspect is
muscle powered (using his STR to throw it...). What are the limitations?
The book states under notes for Grenades: Must be Thrown.
It also states the following as possible Limitations for Muscle Powered
Weapons: OAF, Independent, 1 Recoverable Charge (I don't think this
applies-- the recoverable part :> ). How would you work this out in a
Heroic Campagin if they were 'special' grenedes? How would you work
this out in a Superheroic campagin? What other powers/Sf/x can you see
a Grenade having (Flash, from the explosion, most probally).
...and what if Grenado decides to let the entire bandoleer of 15
grenades go 'boom' at once?
back to Norse God of Thunder... The Mystcial Mallet returns to his hand.
Does he take damage? What if he had a Gauntlet that prevented damage to
the hand he caught it in (is that 'Personal Immunity'
bought just for the
mallet through OIF Gauntlet, 'Hand Only"?).
...and how does the Dreadlocked Hunting Alien not cut his fingers off?
Yet again, I stand before you, clueless. Tell me what you think is
truest to the Champion system, works the best in game mehanics, or just comes
out to be an unusually weird, but suprisingly workable twist.
Jason 'Ooops! Sorry!!' Sullivan
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 06:59:21 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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At 10:02 PM 10/11/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "GH" == Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> writes:
>
>GH> The ones I can think of right now are:
>GH> --Linked (No debates, please!)
>
>The only reason that Linked is vague is because nobody bothered to
>seriously question Hero Games about it until fairly recently. Besides, it
>is not that Linked is vague, it is that the description is badly phrased.
I think that this is what Guy was meaning by "grey areas" things that
may or may not be specifically defined in the rulebook, but which are not
made clear in any case.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:29:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Tragic Tale of Norse God of Thunder and The Mad Bomber
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On Sun, 12 Oct 1997, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
Okay, I'll try taking a swing at this.
> Greetings Fellows,
> I have a question as to the powers/Sf/x of items used in combat.
> Norse God of Thunder has his Mystical Mallet that he can throw for
> ridiculous ammounts of damage... and it returns.
> What is this exactly? Is it a OAF (it can still be Grabbed or
> hit with a ranged attack-- but it returns to his hand when thrown
> upon his call... It can be deflected and caught by Armored Lativan
> Sorcerer when he possess the Power Galatic, preventing the power from
> being used because it travels along a physical path)? It is a
> recoverable charge (easiest charge to recover in the world, if it is)?
It really depends upon what *you* want it to be. In most cases, Thor's
(and yeah, you can use character names here, we don't mind) hammer is
written up as an OAF. The 'throw and have it return' stunt is just a
special effect of his (x)d6 Energy Blast (physical). It he could throw it
and then go find it and pick it up, *that* would be a "single recoverable
charge". Being defelected and caught by Doom is an example of Missle
Defelection/Reflection.
> What if there was a thrown object that returned along a certain
> predetermined flight path, like the Dreadlocked Hunting Alien's
> deadly Spinning Slash-Disk? (I'm thinking either a really limited TK,
> a very weird Area of Effect along an ellipitical path, or perhaps even
> flight and an AI bought just for the weapon [it's crazy, but it's a hi-tech
> 'smart' weapon). How do you deal with unusual mysical gizmos like these?
Boil it down to it's basics. The Predator tosses his blade and it flys
along an arc and returns to his hand. *Anything* in the path of the
attack can be hit. I would define this as an Area of Affect: Any. A few
other limitations (like No Range and OAF) should simulate everything
nicely. If you want a number of different effects for the balde, buy a
Multipower and tack in RKA, AoE: Line and what ever else you want.
> The Mad Bomber (a.k.a Grenado) has a bandoleer of grenades. He
> can throw them, or just drom 'em where they lie. The throwing aspect is
> muscle powered (using his STR to throw it...). What are the limitations?
If he can toss them or drop them and have them go off a moment later, then
the Advantage "Time Delay" should be used.
> The book states under notes for Grenades: Must be Thrown.
Actually, I use the Dark Champions Lim of "Range Based on STR" (-1/4),
since the Active Points x5 Range is usually *way* out of line for most
grenades.
> It also states the following as possible Limitations for Muscle Powered
> Weapons: OAF, Independent, 1 Recoverable Charge (I don't think this
> applies-- the recoverable part :> ). How would you work this out in a
> Heroic Campagin if they were 'special' grenedes? How would you work
> this out in a Superheroic campagin? What other powers/Sf/x can you see
> a Grenade having (Flash, from the explosion, most probally).
OAF is fine. Independant is not (they blow up... everytime you use them
you're outta points.) Recoverable doesn't work either, they blow up. In
a Heroic game (where you don't have to pay for weapons and armor and other
devices, who cares about points? Design the grenades and use them. In a
Superhero game, define the greandes and use any *logical* limitations and
you are done. Other powers for grenades? EB, RKA, Entangle, Flash,
Darkness.
> ...and what if Grenado decides to let the entire bandoleer of 15
> grenades go 'boom' at once?
In a Heroic Game, he can and the GM decides how much damage. IN a
Superhero game, he should be allowed to do so, but if he wants to do it
*alot*, then the GM should have him buy a power relating to this trick.
> back to Norse God of Thunder... The Mystcial Mallet returns to his hand.
> Does he take damage? What if he had a Gauntlet that prevented damage to
> the hand he caught it in (is that 'Personal Immunity'
> bought just for the
> mallet through OIF Gauntlet, 'Hand Only"?).
In order: No, it is part of the SFX. Uh.. I guess so. Actually, Thor's
gauntlet enabled him to *lift* his hammer, not prevent damage from
catching it. And as to the damage part upon catching it. That would be a
Side Effect, Personal Immunity would mean that he couldn't be hurt by his
hammer being thrown at him.
> ...and how does the Dreadlocked Hunting Alien not cut his fingers off?
SFX and really quick hands.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 97 15:37:56
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: The Tragic Tale of Norse God of Thunder and The Mad Bomber
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On Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:50:09 -0500 (EST), ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>Greetings Fellows,
> I have a question as to the powers/Sf/x of items used in combat.
>Norse God of Thunder has his Mystical Mallet that he can throw for
>ridiculous ammounts of damage... and it returns.
> What is this exactly? Is it a OAF (it can still be Grabbed or
>hit with a ranged attack-- but it returns to his hand when thrown
>upon his call... It can be deflected and caught by Armored Lativan
>Sorcerer when he possess the Power Galatic, preventing the power from
>being used because it travels along a physical path)? It is a
>recoverable charge (easiest charge to recover in the world, if it is)?
Generally, it's a RKA or EB, OIHID (if you check the archives, this has
been thoroughly thrashed out). Because it virtually never gets
intercepted/whatever, you could build AL with a mammoth Transfer. If
you want to make this a regular effect, then OAF or OIF will do.
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Stainless Steel Rat\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 97 15:40:42
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Pushing
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On 12 Oct 1997 09:03:42 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "CS" == Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> writes:
>
>CS> I would rule that any power costing END may be pushed. Official
>CS> rules aside, I allow for powers with the 'costs END' limitation to be
>CS> pushed as well.
>
>Thing is, most powers that do not require Endurance make no sense if you
>push them. Push your Life Support, for instance.
What about Pushing your Luck? <gdrlf>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:33:36 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: The Tragic Tale of Norse God of Thunder and The Mad Bomber
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>Greetings Fellows,
> I have a question as to the powers/Sf/x of items used in combat.
>Norse God of Thunder has his Mystical Mallet that he can throw for
>ridiculous ammounts of damage... and it returns.
> What is this exactly? Is it a OAF (it can still be Grabbed or
>hit with a ranged attack-- but it returns to his hand when thrown
>upon his call... It can be deflected and caught by Armored Lativan
>Sorcerer when he possess the Power Galatic, preventing the power from
>being used because it travels along a physical path)? It is a
>recoverable charge (easiest charge to recover in the world, if it is)?
Mjollnir is probably best represented by a Hand Attack with the Ranged
Advantage. I'd call it a OIF, as it was notoriously hard to take away from
Thor. The 'returning' part is just the SFX of the Ranged element of the Hand
Attack (EB could easily substitute, but then Thor's STR doesn't become a
factor).
> What if there was a thrown object that returned along a certain
>predetermined flight path, like the Dreadlocked Hunting Alien's
>deadly Spinning Slash-Disk? (I'm thinking either a really limited TK,
>a very weird Area of Effect along an ellipitical path, or perhaps even
>flight and an AI bought just for the weapon [it's crazy, but it's a hi-tech
>'smart' weapon). How do you deal with unusual mysical gizmos like these?
You could try a Selective Area Effect. Personally, I don't like AE: Line for
this sort of thing - I think AE: Any would be better, perhaps with a small
limitation to prevent 'dense' Area Effect attacks. Sort of an AE: Any
Reasonably Plausible Flight Path....
> The Mad Bomber (a.k.a Grenado) has a bandoleer of grenades. He
>can throw them, or just drom 'em where they lie. The throwing aspect is
>muscle powered (using his STR to throw it...). What are the limitations?
Range Based on STR (-1/4). Decide on the weight of grenades, and apply the
STR Throwing chart.
>The book states under notes for Grenades: Must be Thrown.
>It also states the following as possible Limitations for Muscle Powered
>Weapons: OAF, Independent, 1 Recoverable Charge (I don't think this
>applies-- the recoverable part :> ). How would you work this out in a
>Heroic Campagin if they were 'special' grenedes?
IGNORE the 'Independant' limitation in that section. It's there if you want
to build one-of-a-kind magic items for heroic campaigns (and the like),
where you don't get things back if you lose them (but seldom pay points for
them yourself anyways, b/c equipment is free). In a superheroic campaign,
you don't want to use Independant very often.
> How would you work
>this out in a Superheroic campagin? What other powers/Sf/x can you see
>a Grenade having (Flash, from the explosion, most probally).
Flash, Double Knockback (concussion grenade), Smoke (Darkness), Choking
Fumes (NND EB)...all sorts of things.
> ...and what if Grenado decides to let the entire bandoleer of 15
>grenades go 'boom' at once?
He'll need Autofire, or Time Delayed grenades, or a common Trigger, or just
a separate, beefy, heavily limited attack that goes boom real nice but eats
all remaining charges.
> back to Norse God of Thunder... The Mystcial Mallet returns to his hand.
>Does he take damage?
Nope, that's SFX.
>What if he had a Gauntlet that prevented damage to
>the hand he caught it in (is that 'Personal Immunity'
>bought just for the
>mallet through OIF Gauntlet, 'Hand Only"?).
Mostly, I'd ignore it. You _could_ buy some sort of Side Effects or other
Limitation on the power to simulate him screwing up once in awhile, but I
wouldn't bother.
> ...and how does the Dreadlocked Hunting Alien not cut his fingers off?
Good technology, smart weaponry, and fast hands.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:33:40 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Pushing
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>>Thing is, most powers that do not require Endurance make no sense if you
>>push them. Push your Life Support, for instance.
>
>What about Pushing your Luck? <gdrlf>
Here's a thought - let characters 'push' their luck. No END is involved, but
for every extra 1D6 of Luck they want, they have to simultaneously roll 1D6
of Unluck as well. Unluck dice cancel out any Lucky dice - just use the
remainder.
Example: Lucky Luke has 3D6 Luck and is in a bad situation. He decides to
Push His Luck and takes an extra 3D6 of Luck. He then rolls NINE dice - 6
Luck Dice, and 3 Unluck Dice. His Luck Dice come up with one '6', but his
Unluck come up with two '1's. Lucky Luke trips over his own shoelaces
instead of rolling to safety...
Alternatively, you could say that for every extra die of Luck they want, the
lower numbers on the Luck dice become Unluck. Example: Lucky Luke wants two
(2) extra Luck dice, but now the ones and twos on _all_ his Luck dice are
Unluck.
Either one makes 'Pushing Your Luck' more risk than it's worth (which is why
it's called Pushing Your Luck, natch) as before Unluck didn't rear it's ugly
head on Luck rolls (Luck rolls _never_ make the situation worse, as it stands).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"John and Ron Prins\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 97 19:17:24
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Pushing
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On Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:33:40 -0400 (EDT), John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>>Thing is, most powers that do not require Endurance make no sense if you
>>>push them. Push your Life Support, for instance.
>>
>>What about Pushing your Luck? <gdrlf>
>
>Here's a thought - let characters 'push' their luck. No END is involved, but
>for every extra 1D6 of Luck they want, they have to simultaneously roll 1D6
>of Unluck as well. Unluck dice cancel out any Lucky dice - just use the
>remainder.
>
>Example: Lucky Luke has 3D6 Luck and is in a bad situation. He decides to
>Push His Luck and takes an extra 3D6 of Luck. He then rolls NINE dice - 6
>Luck Dice, and 3 Unluck Dice. His Luck Dice come up with one '6', but his
>Unluck come up with two '1's. Lucky Luke trips over his own shoelaces
>instead of rolling to safety...
>
>Alternatively, you could say that for every extra die of Luck they want, the
>lower numbers on the Luck dice become Unluck. Example: Lucky Luke wants two
>(2) extra Luck dice, but now the ones and twos on _all_ his Luck dice are
>Unluck.
>
>Either one makes 'Pushing Your Luck' more risk than it's worth (which is why
>it's called Pushing Your Luck, natch) as before Unluck didn't rear it's ugly
>head on Luck rolls (Luck rolls _never_ make the situation worse, as it stands).
Ooh! Evil. I like the latter, but my post *was* a jest, after all.
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:24:02 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> You have to interpret stuff even more vague than the HSR, and "much
> more" is at stake there? I suppose how worried I should be depends on what
> you do for a living! (Gee, I hope you don't work at NORAD....) ;-]
It sounds as if you have never taken a peek at the Internal Revenue Code, nor
at its implementing regulations! For that matter, it sounds as if you have
never read anything written by a big-six consulting firm! ;-) For that
matter, have you never used "man?" <gd&r from all Unixphiles>
Most user-written requirements are written and reviewed by people who are
expert at the process being described, but are used by people who have never
seen the process in question. Does this sound like publishing a set of game
rules? It is very tough to realize the huge number of assumptions that one
brings to writing a process description, and to communicate those assumptions
in a clear way, especially if the assumptions include "common sense"
exceptions.
> . . . Let's just leave
> the poor idiots alone and try to figure out what the Dickens they thought
> they were talking about! ;-]
Although, unlike you, I have no published modules to my credit, I have a
great deal of empathy for what it means to write clear rules. I have been
involved for twenty years in writing and publishing the PrinceCon system,
which is the Princeton SGU's variation of D&D (*not* AD&D). Our original
goal was to write rules of such clarity that twenty GMs who rarely game
together can produce consistent results across a weekend-long tournament.
This is a tough standard, and probably an impossible one to meet.
In fact, one of the reasons that the SGU has placed its rules on the Web is
so that those people who like our system and use it in their own campaigns
can see corrections and clarifications as they are approved.
> ...
> >Lord only knows what was *intended*.
>
> On that last comment, I wouldn't be so sure. Steve Peterson,
> has actually come out and said that he doesn't know [what he meant]
Deconstructionism, anyone?
>
> And here's where I fall squarely on the other side of the camp from you,
> though Vox' statement is unclear. If one has NCM, then a character may buy
> part of his Characteristics as Powers, provided (a) he sacrifices any
> Figured Characteristics, and more importantly (b) the GM approves. In my
> own campaign, you generally have to purchase the increased Characteristics
> through a Focus or Battlesuit, or get special permission.
Well, as you said, we are on opposite sides of the camp, both equally
convinced that we are implementing the rule as expressed.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
From: PhilCopp@aol.com
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 18:36:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: PBeM Games or NYC game
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Any PBeM Champs gamesout there that need a player?
or
NYC based face to face game that needs a player or two Please E mail me
Thanks
Phil Copp
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 21:12:55 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Pushing
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> >Thing is, most powers that do not require Endurance make no sense if you
> >push them. Push your Life Support, for instance.
In which case, you wouldn't
>
> What about Pushing your Luck? <gdrlf>
No, no, that's for the Players, not their characters....
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:05:12 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Pushing
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John and Ron Prins wrote:
> >What about Pushing your Luck? <gdrlf>
>
> Here's a thought - let characters 'push' their luck. No END is involved, but
> for every extra 1D6 of Luck they want, they have to simultaneously roll 1D6
> of Unluck as well. Unluck dice cancel out any Lucky dice - just use the
> remainder.
<more details/example snippoed>
Actually, I've always played that when a character has both Luck (paid
for) *and* Unluck, they are at the mercy of both at all times; when
making a luck roll their chosen 'luck' number (6 or 1) generates a
result of unluck on the opposite die result (1 or 6), and the same with
unluck - whenever unluck is rolled, luck can occur on the opposite die
result. I only do this with the players knowledge and approval, of
course, but someone twisted enough to want both luck AND unluck usually
likes the extra chaos introduced by this rule...
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:30:40 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
CC: hero-l@emerald.omg.org
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
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Vance Scott wrote:
>
> I'd like to borrow peoples thoughts on time lines.
All statements are IMHO, by definition. Forgive me if I am belaboring
the obvious at any point.
I agree that general principles will apply, but there are also a couple
of cases that determine how a timeline will be built.
I like to think of campaigns in terms of a "reference world." All works
of fiction take an assumed background from previous works of fiction and
from the real world. The choice may be explicit or implicit, but it
exists, and the more the GM understands about his choice, the better the
campaign will be. Of course, reference worlds have their "meta-reference
worlds" and so on to the "ur-reference world", which is reality.
> 1. What is a time line?
You omit that most campaigns contain two time lines: one for the GM and
the other for players. Changes to the time line will occur as you learn
more about your campaign world, and those changes should ideally be
tracked. Of course, I do this perfectly. Right. Sure I do. :-)
>
> 2. What purposes do fictional time lines serve?
(a) They help the GM get to know his world.
(b) They help the GM think of history in terms of cause and effect.
(c) They help the GM avoid embarrassment.
(d) They help the players get a sense of the campaign world.
(e) They form a basis for planting clues that players can interpret
through their own ingenuity, rather than character die rolls.
(f) They form a skeleton around which to build narratives.
(g) They can help inspire and motivate scenarios.
(h) This list is not exhaustive by any means.
>
> 3. How do I construct a fictional time line?
>
Before beginning a timeline, take a look at the timeline for the
reference world, or reference worlds, and decide how closely you want to
follow your source. Some important issues are:
- Adopt the timeline with changes or just be inspired by it?
- If adopting a timeline, at what point will you begin making significant
changes? I call this the "Point of First Divergence."
- How long does a typical reign/government last? A typical dynasty or
political party? A typical governmental system?
- What is the timescale for technological change in each era?
- What is the timescale for societal change in each era?
- What is the granularity of the time line that you will find useful?
- What is the current date?
- How much work are you willing to put into this?
It is important to have good source material to avoid inventing
absurdities, such as "A short interregnum of 300 years." I have seen
people drop such things carelessly into timelines, both for campaigns and
for published works, and it looks silly. It is also important not to
bite off more than you can chew.
I would say that five generations (200 years for humans) is about the
minimum for a useful timeline. Be careful about elves, immortals and
suchlike: they will lengthen timelines of necessity. Of course, the
portion of the timeline within PC memory needs to be very detailed, while
that within the memory of grandparents can be less so, and history before
that is, well, history.
This is where the reference world comes to the rescue. It can save you a
lot of work if you put your fantasy world sometime in the early Fourth
Age of Middle Earth, because you have a whole history with which to play,
and can concentrate on those items of importance to your campaign. For a
super-heroic or SF campaign, real-world timelines, like real-world maps
are a *huge* timesaver. Again, you can concentrate on the aspects of use
to you.
Now, that you have made your background decisions, lay out the portion of
your timeline (if any) prior to the Point of First Divergence. Thus, if
you determine that superpowers first affected history in 1888, then the
PoFD is 1888. The timeline up to that point can be obtained from any
almanac. This does not mean that Robert E. Lee and Ulysses S. Grant were
not metahumans, just that the history of the Civil War is explained by
them, not changed by them.
Next, lay out your reference timeline from the PoFD onward. Decide on
the most important events or general trends for each time period,
starting with a convenient time scale that represents at least 5% of the
whole. This, if PoFD is 1888, then your first time period should be a
decade. If you are doing a completely original timeline starting at
1,000,000 years ago, your initial timescale should be around 50,000
years.
For each period, decide what you want to keep from your refe