Week Ending October 18, 1997
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Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 00:59:27 +0900
From: Michael House <macross@gol.com>
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
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At 16:43 -0700 1997.10.10, Mann, Wade wrote:
> I am currently developing some software that might be released through
> Hero Games. I am trying to figure out the platforms that I should
> support.
>
> How many of you are using win 3.x, win95/nt, and/or Mac?
Mac OS 8-J, on a PowerBook 3400c/200. If possible, I'd like to see a
PowerPC-native version of this proposed software, in addition to a
68K version. No Fat Binaries, please.
Be Seeing You...
--Michael House, macross@gol.com, www.gainax.co.jp
GAINAX Co., Ltd. (Opinions expressed are my own unless otherwise specified)
"Perfection is achieved only by institutions on the point of collapse."
--C. Northcote Parkinson
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:02:10 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
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> Proud to be using Windows 95---oops. Wait a second while I
> reinstall...
Of course, to be an equal opportunity insulter, the Mac-ers have
it good. At least they will be getting a real OS. The microsoft clones
have to wiat around for a product that will give them even less control
over their computer.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:03:30 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Tragic Tale of a Teenage Dinosaur-Man
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I'm new at this Champions thing, so bear with me...
I'm planning on running a Scenario with a few of my friends. One
of the characters is an ancient Dinosaur-Man awakened from his
millenium slumber. He's very big, and weighs alot (15 points of
Growth and Density Increase [one level each], 0 END, Persistent,
Always on).
It dosen't make much sense that a character using Drain could
make him shrink (...unless the character has bought Drain with that
specific special effect [in which case I'd probally design El Shrinko
with Shrinking Useable Against Others]), since his size is pretty much
innate and absolute. Is there anything (aside from buying innane levels
of Growth and Density Increase with Difficult to Dispel) to represent
this 'innate-ness'? Perhaps a Power Modifier ('Innate Power')...
Should logic just shine through at that point? (The Sf/x is natural,
therefore
therefore, a Drain wouldn't work- much in the same way a
Drian wouldn't work against an Elephant's Growth). Can you 'Drain' his
Extra-Limb (Tail) away? (Under a similar logical assumption, Extra
Limb is a 'Special Power,' assumed to be functioning unless it is turned
"off," which he couldn't do [would you let a player turn his 'Extra Limb'
'off'? Would he get any compensation for being unable to turn his 'Limb'
on and off? Would it cost any more points to have an set of extra arms that
could just appear?)
What about actual character creation? Racial Package Deal or
Elemental Control: Dino-Man Anatomy?
Tell me what you think...
Jason Sullivan
Subject: Re: Tragic Tale of a Teenage Dinosaur-Man
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 97 13:25:48 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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ALONE AT MIDNIGHT RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu 10/11/97 1:03 PM
> I'm planning on running a Scenario with a few of my friends. One
>of the characters is an ancient Dinosaur-Man awakened from his
>millenium slumber. He's very big, and weighs alot (15 points of
>Growth and Density Increase [one level each], 0 END, Persistent,
>Always on).
> It dosen't make much sense that a character using Drain could
>make him shrink
<snip>
> What about actual character creation? Racial Package Deal or
>Elemental Control: Dino-Man Anatomy?
Jason,
This is PURELY A HOUSE RULE but here's how my PBEM groups been handling
that problem. If and only if a charater's DI and/or growth is defined
as innate/racial (0 END, Persistent,Always On...especially always on...)
we've fiat ruled that it can't be drained. However, secondary effects
CAN be. Specifically, I can't shrink you with a drain but I can drain
the strength, PD, ED, etc. your size grants. Also, neither DI nor Growth
are considered "tight groups" of effects for adjustment power advantages.
In general, this has worked for us, largely because the Always On
physiology effect is relitively uncommon and it really hasn't been abused.
Now if everyone suddenly decides they waht to be Dinosaur-Man also, I'd
definantly make them pay for some outrageous Power Defense with a -3 or
more limitation Only to defend Growth/DI. Actually, I modeled it this
way initially when I came up with this sort of concept until my GM said
it could be chalked up to Special Effect.
Again, THIS IS A HOUSE RULE, not core Champs, so use at your own risk...
PAX,
John
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:26:16 -0700
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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Mike Lehmann wrote:
>
> -=> Quoting Rick Ryker to Mike Lehmann <=-
>
> RR> HERO changed the rules so that you CAN have Density and Growth
> affect your figured stats for an advantage cost.
>
> Must have been a recent change, or a really old one that got fixed
> along the way.
It existed in Golden Age of Champions by Firebird(?). Not the GAC that
was printed by Hero games. So it was based on the Third edition anyhow.
+1/4 for growth and +1/2 for DI if I remember.
I don't think it was ever official Hero.
-Mark Lemming
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:41:32 -0700
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On 10/10/97 4:29 PM, Rick Ryker wrote:
>> Do you save the human race?
>>
>Hell yes! As I said before, a "no-brainer".
>The life instinct for survival of the self is only superceded
>by the life instinct for survival of the species.
>
>Going back to your case of the space aliens trying to land.
>It would be criminal (against life's basic instincts) to side for the
>aliens.
>It would be criminal (against life's basic instincts) for the aliens
to
>side for you.
>If their only hope for survival is to land on your planet. No
brainer.
>They are going to. You just try to stop them.
>If the aliens trying to land is going to kill millions of people. No
>brainer.
>We're going to do everything in our power to stop them.
Interesting. The decision for the survival of the last 800 aliens, on
the part of the aliens, was declared evil by several of the others who
previously replied. By extention of what they said, to save the last
800 humans at the cost of 1,000,000 aliens is also evil.
Thus, the decision you call a "no brainer" was declared "evil" by
others on this thread.
>But we are getting WAY of track in these posts.
>This thread was supposed to be about providing your players
>with No-Win situations where no matter how many options there are
>none of them will let the players "win".
Well, yes and no. If you are going to use the "antinomy" method of
creating tragic, "no-win" scenarios, it is very important that you
know the character's values _very_ well. Otherwise, they simply choose
one or the other. This example does help to illustrate that.
>Would somebody please define "win"?
Depends upon the scenario. There are a couple of "no-win" scenarios
possible, with numerous variations. In some there is only one result
and you can't stop it. In such cases, winning would be stopping the
unstoppable, or completing the impossible, possibly at great, but
lesser, cost. In others, you have two (or more) conflicting
possibilities, which are supposed to be equally bad. Winning would be
ending the conflict and getting both, possibly at great, but lesser,
cost.
Such scenarios should be used in only one of three situations. First,
they could be on a fairly low level. Example: The Crown Jewels of
England vs. the life of a petty criminal. (Note: Please don't tell me
these aren't equal. I cannot create antinomy for you, because I don't
know you. I have trouble enough creating antinomy for even one
character and player that I know well.)
Second would be if your players are heavily into plumbing the depths
of their characters, and want to play what happyelf! called, "shaking
their fists at the sky and bawling their eyes out". For a scenario
like this, you need to have just the right players, as players who
don't want to do this generally _really_ don't want to do this.
Third would be if your players asked for a scenario where they would
fight each other. In such a case, the conflicting situations would be
chosen to create antinomy (a balance between the equally bad cases)
for the group as a whole, but the individual characters would pick one
or the other.
Note that in all but the most minor case, these require players who
really want to do something like this. Even the minor case should be
used with the greatest of care, as you might find that the conflict is
both less fun and more devisive than you planned.
Filksinger
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 13:56:24 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Tragic Tale of a Lonely Archer
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Archer is a hero with a 3d6 KA (32 recoverable charges, 2 handed
weapon, OAF, Independent, Str miniumum 28, Power Limitation: Cost END) to
simulate a bow he uses in combat...
I want to give him a movement power, namely Swinging, in the form
of an Arrow with a line attached to it. How do I simulate this Sf/x,
considering it will take time and probally a Skill roll to get the arrow
into the object in question. It would be impossible for him to use it
in rapid sucession (like a Spider-Guy would...), or on objects that are
too dense for the arrow to penetrate. If he has one recoverable charge,
could he just pluck it using the cord attached to it? Would the focus
be the sing line itself, the arrow, or the bow? Would it be Linked to
the previous attack, and if it were, would it cost additional END to
fire (or would you just buy it with the Limitation: Charges)? What
is the DEF and BODY of a swing line? How long is it? Would it
add any bonuses to climbing (and how fast could he climb up it)?
....can anyone out there think of the numerous Sf/x of a piece of rope?
Sliding across it from an elevation, using it to choke an enemy, tripping
or 'clotheslining' a number of goons running itno your line of fire,
entangling someone with a 'bounced' shot, rappling, climbing (again),
shooting it into a helecopter so the brick in your part can tug it down,
having other people on it at the same time, tying yourself down to a street
lamp while Dr. Wind conjures up a storm.... how would these translate into
game terms? ...and how much weight could it support? What if it missed?!?
Your feed back would be appreciated.
Archers of the World, Unite!
Jason Sullivan
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 15:38:39 -0400 (EDT)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Tragic Tale of a Teenage Dinosaur-Man
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> I'm new at this Champions thing, so bear with me...
> I'm planning on running a Scenario with a few of my friends. One
>of the characters is an ancient Dinosaur-Man awakened from his
>millenium slumber. He's very big, and weighs alot (15 points of
>Growth and Density Increase [one level each], 0 END, Persistent,
>Always on).
Wow, that's x64 mass...why should a Dino-man be denser than any other living
creature? I could see 5 pips of DI to represent heavy bones and muscle, but
15 pips? He's be dense as stone...
> It dosen't make much sense that a character using Drain could
>make him shrink (...unless the character has bought Drain with that
>specific special effect [in which case I'd probally design El Shrinko
>with Shrinking Useable Against Others]), since his size is pretty much
>innate and absolute.
Don't worry about it. Seriously, how many enemies are you going to see with
'Drain vs. Growth' or 'Drain vs. Density Increase'. Sure, characters with a
VPP could do it, but why would they? (I'll point out that a 0 END Persistant
power racks up a lot of Active Points to be Drained).
>Is there anything (aside from buying innane levels
>of Growth and Density Increase with Difficult to Dispel) to represent
>this 'innate-ness'?
You don't need one. It will be so rare that worrying about it is mostly
pointless. If you _are_ worried about it, buy 10 pips of Power Defense,
which will be good vs. all sorts of other effects too (BTW, I could say that
my STR is 'innate' and shouldn't be drainable, but nobody's gonna buy that
logic - a Drain vs. Growth/DI would have to have the SFX of being a 'shrink
ray'). If we ever get a Champs 5th Edition, though, I'd like to see Mass as
a characteristic rather than a power.
>Perhaps a Power Modifier ('Innate Power')...
>Should logic just shine through at that point? (The Sf/x is natural,
>therefore
> therefore, a Drain wouldn't work- much in the same way a
>Drian wouldn't work against an Elephant's Growth).
Sure it would, SFX willing. Besides, anybody with a 'shrink ray' gun will
probably have a multipower with Drain vs. Growth and Shrinking, UAO. How
does he know which to use? Easy - is it bigger than a human? Drain it. Is it
human sized or smaller? Shrink it! :-)
>Can you 'Drain' his
>Extra-Limb (Tail) away?
Yes, but it would have extremely odd SFX (genetic reversion ray??).
>(Under a similar logical assumption, Extra
>Limb is a 'Special Power,' assumed to be functioning unless it is turned
>"off," which he couldn't do [would you let a player turn his 'Extra Limb'
>'off'?
If he doesn't have Distinctive Features, sure. Example: A telekinetic who
has Extra Limbs (as required) who can then use his STR without using his
'hands' (still subject to touch triggers/damage shields/whatnot). Or
somebody with retractable tentacles, or waldos, or extendible tongues, etc.
> Would he get any compensation for being unable to turn his 'Limb'
>on and off?
Yeah, Distinctive Features, probably.
>Would it cost any more points to have an set of extra arms that
>could just appear?)
Nope.
> What about actual character creation? Racial Package Deal or
>Elemental Control: Dino-Man Anatomy?
> Tell me what you think...
I shy away from racial package deals unless the race is pretty common; even
then, it's more to set the racial characteristic maxima more than anything
(and I use the 'if you raise/lower the maxima/minima, the base
characteristic changes as well' (otherwise, you really pay double duty on
those characteristics anyway...). Elemental Control would be best. Like:
EC: Dino-Man Anatomy (15)
A.) 15 pip Growth, 0 END Persistant (+1), Always On (-1/2)
B.) 15 pip Density Increase, 0 END Persistant (+1), Always On (-1/2)
C.) 10rED, 10rED Armor [scaly skin]
D.) 2D6 Hand Killing Attack [bite/claw]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 15:38:43 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Antinomy/Tragedy/No-Win Situations and GMing Question #1
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>it was a No-Win situation. He was trapped deep inside a complex that it
>took him several hours to completely infiltrate. Then the countdown timer
>was set for 30 seconds... Now, I'm back at college, and if Joel wants to
>play, I've already told him that he could be Force, that he would be able to
>have escaped. He said, "Cool. How did I get out?" I told him, "It doesn't
>matter, you did, and then a Ranger team picked you up." Honestly, it *was*
>a No-Win situation, and there was no conceivable way out.
Hey, this is Champions we're talking here! The explosion threw him through a
dimensional portal! He was captured via teleportation by his enemies! He was
rescued by a magician who needed his services! It wasn't really him, just
his android duplicate! He fell through a fissure in the foundations and came
face to face with the terrible Mole-Men! He was pulled from the rubble and
rebuilt into a military cyborg! He got really, really, really lucky and was
able to dig his way out of the rubble...
Sheesh. In Champions, death is the _easy_ way out.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 15:38:47 -0400 (EDT)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Tragic Tale of a Lonely Archer
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> Archer is a hero with a 3d6 KA (32 recoverable charges, 2 handed
>weapon, OAF, Independent, Str miniumum 28, Power Limitation: Cost END) to
>simulate a bow he uses in combat...
Eugch! Is this for a superhero game? Don't let him take Independant or STR
Minima. STR Minima is blatant point-mining, as the PC is _SURE_ to have at
least 28 STR. And Independant is plain stupid (sorry, Bob, it got busted.
Too bad about those points, huh?).
> I want to give him a movement power, namely Swinging, in the form
>of an Arrow with a line attached to it. How do I simulate this Sf/x,
>considering it will take time and probally a Skill roll to get the arrow
>into the object in question. It would be impossible for him to use it
>in rapid sucession (like a Spider-Guy would...), or on objects that are
>too dense for the arrow to penetrate. If he has one recoverable charge,
>could he just pluck it using the cord attached to it?
Sure, that works. X" Swinging, One Recoverable Charge, Requires an OCV roll.
> Would the focus
>be the sing line itself, the arrow, or the bow?
The bow and arrow. Make them one Focus. If you lose the bow, you lose any
ranged ability (this falls under 'SFX').
>Would it be Linked to
>the previous attack,
Could be, but doesn't have to be. Could 'require a charge from the RKA'
(-1/4) as another limitation.
>and if it were, would it cost additional END to
>fire (or would you just buy it with the Limitation: Charges)? What
>is the DEF and BODY of a swing line?
Not a lot.
>How long is it?
Probably about 1/2 the inches in your Swinging.
>Would it
>add any bonuses to climbing (and how fast could he climb up it)?
Some bonuses (or ignore a climbing roll, you've got a rope). Climbing would
be 1/2 the inches in the Swinging, off the top of my head - or maybe equal
to 1/2 his Superleap (STR/5 if he has no Superleap).
> ....can anyone out there think of the numerous Sf/x of a piece of rope?
You don't want SFX, you want powers that can fit into the SFX.
>Sliding across it from an elevation,
Swinging.
> using it to choke an enemy
Buy the 'Choke Hold' martial maneuver or a NND Hand Attack.
>tripping
>or 'clotheslining' a number of goons running itno your line of fire,
Martial Throw or limited Telekinesis.
>entangling someone with a 'bounced' shot,
Entangle.
> rappling, climbing (again),
>shooting it into a helecopter so the brick in your part can tug it down,
Stretching.
>having other people on it at the same time, tying yourself down to a street
>lamp while Dr. Wind conjures up a storm....
Knockback Resistance.
how would these translate into
>game terms? ...and how much weight could it support? What if it missed?!?
Champions doesn't handle ordinary rope too well...
The easy route:
15 Variable Power Pool: Piece of Rope [15]
6 VPP Control: No Time (+1), Limited Powers (-1/2), OAF - Piece of Rope (-1)
3 VPP Skill: Rope-Work [DEX-based]
--
24 points, and plenty handy. BTW, using a piece of rope to 'entangle'
someone isn't trivial, and should be bought as a separate power (a 15 AP
Entangle isn't worth much anyways). Rope shouldn't rate more than DEF 2-3
anyways, as anyone with a knife can go through it in seconds. Define it as
steel cable and say it's got 6 DEF, or as Unobtanium rope and make it
indestructible.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 15:08:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
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> > Of course, to be an equal opportunity insulter, the Mac-ers have
> > it good. At least they will be getting a real OS. The microsoft clones
> > have to wiat around for a product that will give them even less control
> > over their computer.
>
> The sad thing is, I DO use Win95...
Hey, just because I insult the product doesn't mean I don't use
it. A summer of installing and working with Win95 convinced me to switch
away from the DOS6.2/Win3.1 system when I upgraded my computer. Far too
many programs, mostly games, need a DOS environment. Far too many also
need a Win95 environment (including the new Creation Workshop, I believe).
I'm happier with 95 than I wasn with 3.1, if only because I've put
together a host of tricks to tweak it and prevent (most) crashes -- I know
how to hack a registry, buddy.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to cross-platform products of the
future that will free me to go with a graphical Unix box. Corel
OfficeSuite is just the first, and I believe Netscape 5 will be as well.
Now if only the computer game industry will move that way as well. (Yeah
right). 'Till then, I have to get my Unix fix by telnetting in to my
school account -- nothing's gonna make me give up my pine.
Now, to bring this back to Champions -- anyone besides me been
tempted to run a session or two with Bill Gates as the big villian? Next
time I'm in the mood for humor I'm gonna do something of the sort. Or
maybe Foxbat kidnaps him for some reason . . . hmmm. Nope, won't work,
the players wouldn't want to rescue him.
-Tim Gilberg
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Bright Futures...
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 14:23:33 -0700
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-----Original Message-----
From: Sparx <psansone@i1.net>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Saturday, October 11, 1997 9:04 AM
Subject: Bright Futures...
<snip>
>I'd
like to
>get my hands on Star Hero, anyone know if that is possible? Well,
take it
>easy and talk at you later.
Off hand, I couldn't say where you would find a copy of Star Hero, but
I have something almost as good and maybe better. At
http://galahad.xstor.com/~johntabe/files/strhero2.zip , you can
download the "beta" version of Star Hero, 4th Ed. rules. So far as I
know, the completed, playtested version isn't out yet, but this is
pretty good.
Filksinger
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:13:35 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Antinomy/Tragedy/No-Win Situations and GMing Question #1
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>>>matter, you did, and then a Ranger team picked you up." Honestly, it *was*
>>>a No-Win situation, and there was no conceivable way out.
>>
>>Hey, this is Champions we're talking here!
>>The explosion threw him through a dimensional portal!
>Even if a conventional explosion could have thrown him through such a portal
Hey, who knows what they were messing with at that base...
>(perhaps due to 'residue' from when he went to Hell, although the 'residue'
>would be on his Powered Armor, which he wasn't wearing), he would have no
>conceivable way of returning from said dimension, without several solo
>adventures.
And what's wrong with that?
>>He was captured via teleportation by his enemies!
>The enemies were the ones who blew him up.
Only one set of enemies?? <boggle> Any self-respecting hero should've
annoyed several dozen villian organizations...
>And their Teleportation
>technology isn't anywhere *near* reliable enough.
Doesn't have to be reliable - just lucky.
>>He was rescued by a magician who needed his services!
>The magicians who would be powerful enough to find him and get him out
>*right before he died* would be powerful enough not to need his services.
Hardly. Mages are forever suffering these niggling restrictions (can't go
there, can't do this, can't touch that) that the need for minions is
ever-constant.
>>It wasn't really him, just his android duplicate!
>But it *was* him, and if it wasn't he wouldn't've earned the XP. Plus, no
>true androids, yet.
Not that they know of <nudge, wink>.
>>He fell through a fissure in the foundations and came face to face with the
>terrible Mole-Men!
>GAH! NO! Nope, no Mole-Men. Unless it was another of those
>Extradimensional Portals, then see above.
Don't like the Mole-Men, huh? That's your preogative, I guess. How about
Lava-Men? :-)
>>He was pulled from the rubble and rebuilt into a military cyborg!
>This one's possible, but not what Joel wants. At all.
Okay, somebody who owes him a favor rescues him. Same difference.
>>He got really, really, really lucky and was able to dig his way out of the
>rubble...
>Again, this is possible. Maybe that's what happened, he was just too
>delirious to remember.
>>
>>Sheesh. In Champions, death is the _easy_ way out.
>>
>Thanks for belittling me, though.
You're welcome. :-) My point being (I gotta remember to use more smileys!)
that Champions is supposed to simulate comic book action. And comic book
characters _don't_ die if they can possibly sell more books. Even if they do
die, they can come back if the possibility of selling more books because of
it crops up. Death is, in effect, just another 'radiation accident' for the
PC to live through.
>I know you're trying to poke holes in my assertion that there was "no way
>out." If *he* came up with an idea, I'd probably let him have it. But he
>didn't. HE asked ME, "How did I get out?" So, it doesn't matter.
Okay, HE doesn't remember - but later, be sure to tell him 'why' and 'how'
and 'what it's gonna cost him'. Something like this has 'plot hook' written
all over it...
>Okay, I just responded to this, and wanted to clarify my response. I
>realize you were probably not attempting to belittle me, or my gameworld,
>but at most my assertion that it was a "No-Win" situation.
Basically, that was it - more like your assertion that it was a 'no-escape'
situation - that you couldn't think up a reasonable explanation. Like that
he dove through the 'secret escape tunnel' to safety (every villian base has
at least a half-dozen of these, otherwise the villians would never get
away...). Though my own leanings are towards something more dramatic...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 15:19:43 -0800
Organization: Terminal BBS (403)327-9731
Subject: Poll for OS
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-=> Quoting Wade Mann to Mike Lehmann <=-
>I am currently developing some software that might be released through
>Hero Games. I am trying to figure out the platforms that I should
>support.
>
>How many of you are using win 3.x, win95/nt, and/or Mac?
>
>Any information received would be appreciated.
Dos 6.2 and Windows 3.1... Aren't I behind the times? <g>
mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net - - - - - Justice Krewe / Enigma Watch GM
- - - - - - http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html - - - - - -
... "My favorite color? Red. No, BluAAAAAHHH!"
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:34:55 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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At <who knows>10/11/97, filksinger mostly you wrote:
>It's place, generally, is only with players who, sometimes for a
>change of pace, want to plumb their characters depths rather than
>worry about who wins or loses the battle. Even then, it is only for
>those who want to plumb tragedy, pain, guilt and loss. Definitely not
>for everyone.
>
>Perhaps background would explain.
>
>I had a group for a short while which consisted primarily of some
>drama students who wanted to do some roleplaying. An additional
>student wanted to try some soulsearching roleplaying rather than
>beat-up-the-badguy roleplaying, for a change of pace.
<snip>
>Basically, this only really works if the players want a game dedicated
>to "plumbing depths and (what they call) 'real' roleplaying", rather
>than the sort of thing that you (and, actually, I, usually) prefer. I
>suspect that a large part of the reason why we are having this
>discussion is that these players were probably better suited to a game
>of "Vampire" than "Champions".
>
<snip>
>I have seen groups that are so heavily into "playing a role" that they
>don't bother with any sort of dice, or even rules. They decide whether
>or not their characters win or lose, prevail or fail, simply by which
>they think fits the character and the aspects of the character they
>want to explore. These people play role playing games as if they were
>soap operas, with magic or super powers thrown in for an exotic
>flavor. This sort of group actually likes this sort of thing, as part
>of a
>general diet. I would like to play it once or twice, but that is just
>too far.
><snipy-wippy>
>Well, yes, even in my single extreme example above, they had all kinds
>of roleplaying options. Saving both worlds was the only one they
>didn't have.
>
>Filksinger
>
Sorry to start this up again,
all these arguments(and some more bits i snipped)
seem to imply (albeit with a great deal of quotation marking)
that pre-defining a scenario and playing something depressing
is good role playing. All statements about players individual
tastes aside, nothing can be further from the truth:
A) predetermined story arcs fly in the face of improvisation, which is
an integral part of role-playing
B) deep, moody angst-rot is not any more valid than happy, goofy hyjinks.
please, let us not fall into the eternal pitt of pretentious 'white wolf'
stule hackneyed gloom!
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:39:46 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Antinomy/Tragedy/No-Win Situations and GMing Question #1
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At 12:06 PM 10/11/97 +0600, you wrote:
> There is room in some games for tragedy, antinomy (like Nimbus final
>scene, above), and No-Win situations. They're not for everyone, or all the
>time (unless you have some peculiar tastes), but they're viable anyway.
>
> This is pretty much also a nod to Filksinger and Michael Jones, who
>both have put some good points up on the list.
>
>- Jerry
>
>
yay!! we're number one! we're number one! *lol*
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:58:18 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
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Mann, Wade wrote:
>
> I am currently developing some software that might be released through
> Hero Games. I am trying to figure out the platforms that I should
> support.
>
> How many of you are using win 3.x, win95/nt, and/or Mac?
>
> Any information received would be appreciated.
I still use Windows 3.1 (not even 3.11? You barBARian!), and am
currently still actively resisting continuing pressure to upgrade to
Win'95. I also know a few people who don't like '95 either, and are
sticking to 3.x as well.
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 11:02:12 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: overlapping reality junctures (qwas: all that stuff)
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At 03:38 PM 10/11/97 -0400, varios people said:
>>it was a No-Win situation. He was trapped deep inside a complex that it
>>took him several hours to completely infiltrate. Then the countdown timer
>>was set for 30 seconds... Now, I'm back at college, and if Joel wants to
>>play, I've already told him that he could be Force, that he would be able to
>>have escaped. He said, "Cool. How did I get out?" I told him, "It doesn't
>>matter, you did, and then a Ranger team picked you up." Honestly, it *was*
>>a No-Win situation, and there was no conceivable way out.
>
>Hey, this is Champions we're talking here! The explosion threw him through a
>dimensional portal! He was captured via teleportation by his enemies! He was
>rescued by a magician who needed his services! It wasn't really him, just
>his android duplicate! He fell through a fissure in the foundations and came
>face to face with the terrible Mole-Men! He was pulled from the rubble and
>rebuilt into a military cyborg! He got really, really, really lucky and was
>able to dig his way out of the rubble...
>
>Sheesh. In Champions, death is the _easy_ way out.
>
i think what we have here (and in the previous discussion as well)is a case of
overlapping reality. I suppose you can say antinomopoly and stuff like that exists
at a slightly extreme edge of a curve. In the examples above (end of campaign, ect)
you have two seperate campaigns - one ends and the other begins. NOW, in the 'end'
campaign perspective, yes, it's a no-win situation. The same way peter parker
loseing his powers was probably meant as in the 'final' miniseries. BUT in the 'beginning' campaign, that decision is no longer valid, so it's OK to have
the guy come back and have been miraculously saved- plus i think in the genre
(superheroic, thought it sounds a little lower-tech than most) this sort of thing
(he's deffinitley dead. .. no wait he's alive!) is a convention of most settings.
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 18:06:01 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
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Mike Lehmann wrote:
>
> -=> Quoting Wade Mann to Mike Lehmann <=-
>
> >I am currently developing some software that might be released through
> >Hero Games. I am trying to figure out the platforms that I should
> >support.
> >
> >How many of you are using win 3.x, win95/nt, and/or Mac?
> >
> >Any information received would be appreciated.
>
> Dos 6.2 and Windows 3.1... Aren't I behind the times? <g>
No, no, we're just non-conformists. Those 'high-tech' jocks only do
it to feel like they 'belong'.... :-)>
-Capt. Spith
>
> mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net - - - - - Justice Krewe / Enigma Watch GM
> - - - - - - http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html - - - - - -
>
> ... "My favorite color? Red. No, BluAAAAAHHH!"
> ~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Internet: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net <<<<<<<<<<<
> The TERMINAL BBS Fidonet; 1:358/17
> Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada 1:358/18
> This message was processed by NetXpres (403)327-9741
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 18:14:19 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: question #1. ..
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happyelf! wrote:
>
> At 11:25 PM 10/8/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
> >>but it *isn't* the real world- just the gm's opinion, which is often
> >quite silly. . .
> >>i.e. 'super martial arts are real, but backpack nukes aren't'
> >
> >Of course it isn't the real world- it's a game. However, I fail to see
> >why an attempt at creating a "real world"-imitating, high realism
> >game, should be criticized in this manner.
> >
> >Filksinger
> >
> >
>
> becasue it ISN'T REAL!! it's just the gm's assumptions, and the more
> arrogant gm's are in general about this sort of plot enforcment,
> them more likely restrictive games will be. .. . .
It seems to me, 'Elf, that you seem to have the attitude that certain
game-world configurations are unacceptable to play in. And YOU talk
about arrogance! Just because you have a narrowminded attitude about
what level of fantasy is acceptable doesn't mean that everybody else
fits into your parameters. Would it be fair for a group of PCs to be
forced to play in a 4-colour comic-book reality when they all wanted to
play in 'gritty street-justice realism'?
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 11:25:57 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
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(this is all just my opinion, ect.. )
At 12:47 PM 10/11/97 +0000, you wrote:
>I'd like to borrow peoples thoughts on time lines. I'm trying to
>construct a time line for my champions campaign, and I figured that
>some help would be in order. Responses need not be limited to
>SuperHero worlds. I'm fairly certain that time lines for fantasy, or
>science-fiction worlds follow the same basic rules.
>
>
hows about actual contributions? even if not fer yer own campaign,
but just fer fun? ne1 else one the list interested in
a cooperative 'generic' superheroic timeline? just for the hell of it? *eg*
>Some questions that might help replies be more useful.
>
>1. What is a time line?
> - A time line is a chronologically ordered history. A time line
> records memorable, and important events for posterity.
> - I think I have this one covered, but in any project it's important
> to define just what you are working with. So if you think I missed
> something feel free to post such.
>
>2. What purposes do fictional time lines serve?
>
often useful- if they are complex enough. .for instance for time-travel.
i have a huge super-duper timeline which is ripped off a historical one
plus i've added super-stuff and things like that to it. . .it's st out
like a flow chart so you can see generally what causes what, and when
cultures interact. .. in a time-travel scenario of mine the pc's went
back in time and killed a race of nasty dinosaur-men in prehistoric
south america. NOW, i look on my trusty history flowchart. . . aha!
those doni-mean and a band of FEATHERES SERPANTS in south america
wipe each other out in my timeline. . .sooo, when the conquistadors
get to south america (i think it wuz them) the find a massive empire
ruled by feathered serpants! *eg* and if the pc's get there too they
can decide what to do. .. but hell, let's face it- it's not like
the europeans DESERVE to be rescued. ..
>3. How do I construct a fictional time line?
>
structurally, i'd say do a flow-diagram, even though it's not really
'historially correct'. AND tie it into a map or two. . .
>4. How do I use a fictional time line?
>
in copntemplation and modification. make changes and additions after an
adventure, DON'T attempt to use it as an on-the spot resource (believe
me, nothing slows the game more'n a flowchart- cept maybe roleaster crit
tables)
>Vance Scott
>
>Vanquisher of all foes.
>
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Antinomy/Tragedy/No-Win Situations and GMing Question #1
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 18:35:15 -0700
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-----Original Message-----
From: John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Saturday, October 11, 1997 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: Antinomy/Tragedy/No-Win Situations and GMing Question #1
>>it was a No-Win situation. He was trapped deep inside a complex
that it
>>took him several hours to completely infiltrate. Then the countdown
timer
>>was set for 30 seconds... Now, I'm back at college, and if Joel
wants to
>>play, I've already told him that he could be Force, that he would be
able to
>>have escaped. He said, "Cool. How did I get out?" I told him, "It
doesn't
>>matter, you did, and then a Ranger team picked you up." Honestly,
it *was*
>>a No-Win situation, and there was no conceivable way out.
>
>Hey, this is Champions we're talking here! The explosion threw him
through a
>dimensional portal! He was captured via teleportation by his enemies!
He was
>rescued by a magician who needed his services! It wasn't really him,
just
>his android duplicate! He fell through a fissure in the foundations
and came
>face to face with the terrible Mole-Men! He was pulled from the
rubble and
>rebuilt into a military cyborg! He got really, really, really lucky
and was
>able to dig his way out of the rubble...
Well, if it hadn't been preplanned as a clear cut, no way out
scenario, with both the player and the GM in agreement that the
character was going to die, then any of the above would be a
possibility, depending upon the campaign world. There should be ways
out, whether mundane or fanciful, if it was a normal scenario. Of
course, after it was over, and they changed their minds, all of them
again become viable possibilities.
However, none of those should happen in a scenario such as he
described. Why? Because it was intended, from the beginning, as a "you
will die, there is no way out" scenario. The player went in knowing
full well that his character would die, and the GM played it that way.
If I was told I was getting a heroic death for my character, went
through the paces, and some cheesy cop-out was used to save the
character, then I personally would feel cheated.
Of course, changing your mind later is OK, if you both agree.
>Sheesh. In Champions, death is the _easy_ way out.
Yes, I suppose so. However, a "heroic death" where you don't die kind
of loses something, don't you think?
Filksinger
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 11:44:54 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: question #1. ..
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At 06:14 PM 10/11/97 -0700, you wrote:
>> becasue it ISN'T REAL!! it's just the gm's assumptions, and the more
>> arrogant gm's are in general about this sort of plot enforcment,
>> them more likely restrictive games will be. .. . .
>
> It seems to me, 'Elf, that you seem to have the attitude that certain
>game-world configurations are unacceptable to play in. And YOU talk
>about arrogance! Just because you have a narrowminded attitude about
>what level of fantasy is acceptable doesn't mean that everybody else
>fits into your parameters. Would it be fair for a group of PCs to be
>forced to play in a 4-colour comic-book reality when they all wanted to
>play in 'gritty street-justice realism'?
>
> -Capt. Spith
>
no!! *yeesh* no 'gritty' setting is realistic, that's all i'm saying. .
NO rpg is! a gm should keep that in mind or they will become arrogant.
I NEVER said there were certain settings you couldn't play in, i NEVER
even came CLOSE to saying that.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
Mail-Copies-To: never
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>>>>> "GH" == Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> writes:
GH> I think it would be a good thing to identify some of the "grey areas",
GH> areas where the vagueness of the official rules has an impact upon the
GH> way someone runs his campaign.
Remember that Hero is a toolkit system: use what you need, ignore what you
do not, and season to taste for your particular campaign. Sometimes the
rulebook is deliberately vague so as to allow the GM to interpret things in
a way appropriate to his campaign.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 11 Oct 1997 22:02:34 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "GH" == Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> writes:
GH> The ones I can think of right now are:
GH> --Linked (No debates, please!)
The only reason that Linked is vague is because nobody bothered to
seriously question Hero Games about it until fairly recently. Besides, it
is not that Linked is vague, it is that the description is badly phrased.
GH> --Characteristics bought as Powers (with regard to Normal
GH> Characteristic Maxima)
Strictly speaking, Characteristics bought as Powers should not be exempt
from NCM. If the GM rules that they are for whatever reason (and Focus is
not a valid reason since a Limitation should *never* be of benefit to the
character) then the NCM bonus for that character should be reduced
proportionally to how frequently his Characteristics are exceeded.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
\ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:17:07 -0700
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On Saturday, October 11, 1997 6:02 PM, happyelf! wrote:
>At <who knows>10/11/97, filksinger mostly you wrote:
<snip>
>Sorry to start this up again,
>all these arguments(and some more bits i snipped)
>seem to imply (albeit with a great deal of quotation marking)
>that pre-defining a scenario and playing something depressing
>is good role playing. All statements about players individual
>tastes aside, nothing can be further from the truth:
I wasn't trying to make it out that way, but it could be read that
way. That was the attitude of some of the players, I believe, though
not all.
>A) predetermined story arcs fly in the face of improvisation, which
is
>an integral part of role-playing
Well, playing a role, as in acting, often involves an entire script,
already laid out. However, that said, I agree with you. In the case I
mentioned above, we simply decided to explore in a particular
direction, not with a predetermined story. It was, for the most part
(i.e. not entirely, I agree), no more predetermined than most other
stories in many other games. After all, many campaigns and storylines
have a general destination in mind, with certain stops along the way
more or less planned. Ours just happened to include deliberate
tragedy, moral angst, etc.
>B) deep, moody angst-rot is not any more valid than happy, goofy
hyjinks.
>please, let us not fall into the eternal pitt of pretentious 'white
wolf'
>stule hackneyed gloom!
Agreed, it isn't superior role playing. It is _different_ role
playing. Yes, they did, some of them, consider it superior to other
role playing, but then we Champions players often think that our way
of roleplaying is superior. It isn't, really, it's just different.
I agree with both of your points above, again in general. This wasn't
a case of "superior role playing", but of wanting to play something
different than typical for a Champions game, using the Champions rules
and a superhero background. They may have considered it superior, but
it was merely different than typical. Not my usual style, but then
I'll role play almost anything, on occasion. I don't like angst-ridden
doom-and-gloom tragedy as a rule, but it was actually kind of fun for
a little while.
Angst, gloom, fatalism, etc. aren't worse things to role play than
typical four-color superhero antics, but they are different. As I
said, I wouldn't run these storylines with most players.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: overlapping reality junctures (qwas: all that stuff)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:25:55 -0700
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On 10/11/97 6:15 PM, happyelf! wrote:
>i think what we have here (and in the previous discussion as well)is
a case of
>overlapping reality. I suppose you can say antinomopoly and stuff
like that exists
>at a slightly extreme edge of a curve.
Absolutely.
>In the examples above (end of campaign, ect)
>you have two seperate campaigns - one ends and the other begins. NOW,
in the 'end'
>campaign perspective, yes, it's a no-win situation. The same way
peter parker
>loseing his powers was probably meant as in the 'final' miniseries.
BUT in the 'beginning' campaign, that decision is no longer valid, so
it's OK to have
>the guy come back and have been miraculously saved- plus i think in
the genre
>(superheroic, thought it sounds a little lower-tech than most) this
sort of thing
>(he's deffinitley dead. .. no wait he's alive!) is a convention of
most settings.
There's something wrong here, but I can't quite put my finger on...No,
wait! Oh, my God!
WE AGREE!
I think we even actually understand each other. Amazing. We did it.
Now, if we can just avoid discussing who convinced who....<BEG>
Seriously, I think we've both made our points on this one, and reached
an actual agreement and understanding. Feels good, doesn't it? (A bit
weird, maybe....<G>)
Filksinger
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:19:19 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: GMing Question #1
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At 07:17 PM 10/11/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>I wasn't trying to make it out that way, but it could be read that
>way. That was the attitude of some of the players, I believe, though
>not all.
>
i understand this point, i should have been more clear. . .
>>A) predetermined story arcs fly in the face of improvisation, which
>is
>>an integral part of role-playing
>
>
>Well, playing a role, as in acting, often involves an entire script,
>already laid out. However, that said, I agree with you. In the case I
>mentioned above, we simply decided to explore in a particular
>direction, not with a predetermined story. It was, for the most part
>(i.e. not entirely, I agree), no more predetermined than most other
>stories in many other games. After all, many campaigns and storylines
>have a general destination in mind, with certain stops along the way
>more or less planned. Ours just happened to include deliberate
>tragedy, moral angst, etc.
>
as i mentioned in another thread, i don't play or gm with any particular
'flavour' of emotion in mind. i tend to just go with the story and see
what types of feelings it leads to. . which can be all sorts of things, really. .
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:37:12 +1000
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From: happyelf! <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: overlapping reality junctures (qwas: all that stuff)
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At 07:25 PM 10/11/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>There's something wrong here, but I can't quite put my finger on...No,
>wait! Oh, my God!
>
>WE AGREE!
>
>I think we even actually understand each other. Amazing. We did it.
>
>Now, if we can just avoid discussing who convinced who....<BEG>
>
>Seriously, I think we've both made our points on this one, and reached
>an actual agreement and understanding. Feels good, doesn't it? (A bit
>weird, maybe....<G>)
>
>Filksinger
>
>
ah, yes, as i've said before, since we both know we're right,
we were BOUND to start agreeing on something eventually. . *g*
and as for the example above, the idea of reality and campaigns
is an interesting one, which also leads to more constructive
plot copncepts- for instance the hero in one campaign becomes a
villan in another, despite acting exactly the same way. . .
This sort of dualistic perspective i find is very useful for
working different concepts hrough a campaign. Sure, you want the
800 gerblorkian refugees with their evil virus to be a moral quandry
when they reach earth, but it's ok to treat them slightly less seriously
when the pc's meet them on the galactic rim. . .
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Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 23:59:53 -0400
From: Charles Badger <wbandsis@westco.net>
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
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At 17:58 10/11/97 -0700, Captain Spith wrote:
>Mann, Wade wrote:
>>
>> I am currently developing some software that might be released through
>> Hero Games. I am trying to figure out the platforms that I should
>> support.
>>
>> How many of you are using win 3.x, win95/nt, and/or Mac?
>>
>> Any information received would be appreciated.
>
> I still use Windows 3.1 (not even 3.11? You barBARian!), and am
>currently still actively resisting continuing pressure to upgrade to
>Win'95. I also know a few people who don't like '95 either, and are
>sticking to 3.x as well.
I have computers with both dos/windows for worgroups and win95. I used to
be part of the group that wasn't goin to upgrade but working on a friend's
machine convinced me otherwise. Win 95 is a lot harder to crash when
programming then WFW or Win3.x. That was what finally convinced me. I still
make fun of the company who makes them also but then again I wouldn't want
to see them disappear since my job requires the presence of the operating
system. So like the company who manufacturer's it I have to side with the
known vir...., devil..... :)
You know why I was saying the first.... because it's on more and more
machines every year, takes up system resources and doesn't give them back
all the qualifications of a virus.
-----
Charles T. Badger
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 00:54:05 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Customizing it.
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Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> >
> > Hm. I'd understood that there was a Pilipino, which is to Tagalog what
> >Spanglish is to Spanish (a cross-breeding with English).
> >
> I'm not sure about that, but as a pale white guy (who has to
> Filipino players), I do know that Tagalog is only one dialect used in the
> Philippines. Nimbus (one of my guys) said his 'rents speak a different
> dialect but had to learn Tagalog because it became the national language by
> default.
> I believe this is correct, but I can't double-check, as Nimbus and
> Force are out of town this weekend.
Well, I don't have all the details, but I do have a little knowledge
from when I lived in Hawaii (EVERYONE spoke their own languages at
home....)
There are several seperate Filipino language dialects which do not
happily overlap with each other, and one of them, probably Tagalog, is
in fact an Official National Language in the Philippines.
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 01:25:13 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Pushing
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> >>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
>
> JD> Which Powers are Push-able? Just Attack Powers? Are Movement
> JD> Powers fair game? What about Teleportation? Would you allow a
> JD> character to Push his Force Field? And how long would *that* last?
>
> S.S.Rat counters;
>
> First point: there is no such thing as "attack powers". There are powers
> that may be used both offensively and defensively.
>
> Official Rule: any power that uses END may be pushed. Pushing constant or
> continuous powers lasts until the character's next action phase starts.
>
> GM's call: powers that have the 0 END advantage may be pushed. The pushed
> points should probably still cost END, though.
I would rule that any power costing END may be pushed. Official
rules aside, I allow for powers with the 'costs END' limitation to be
pushed as well. I would also rule that Powers bought to 0END could only
be pushed if they are not purchased with mechanical SFX; You can't
'push' a bullet from a gun to do more damage. If a power bought with
0END were to be pushed, though, it should be at the 'normal' END cost
for pushing.
>
> JD> Are partial Pushes acceptable? ex. A 10d6 EB pushed to only
> JD> 11d6 (assume no Advantages).
>
> Sure, at least in supers games where you decide how many active points you
> wish to push.
The games I used to play in had a great Pushing rule. One could
decide either to push by up to 10 active points for up to 10 END
(1pt/1END), OR make an EGO roll for BIG pushes. Every 1 the EGO roll
was bested by was 5 active points of push (at the same END cost rate),
HOWEVER - there was a cost. The first 10 a.p. cost only END, the next 5
also did 1D6 damage, the next 5 points +1D6(2D6), the next 5 +2D6(4D6),
the next 5 +4D6(8D6), etc. If the self-inflicted damage from pushing
exceeds the character's STUN, (s)he starts taking BODY (at a rate of 1/3
of the remaining STUN damage)
I.E., Capt. Spith has to push his STR to break out of an Entangle and
stop his teammate from killing someone and stepping all over his Code
against Killing. He makes his EGO roll by 6 (rolling 6 vs. his <12 EGO
roll) and pushes his STR by 30, costing 30 END and causing himself 8D6
STUN damage straight through. almost made it. Next phase, the villian
has already been killed, so Spith's Code vs. Killing drives him berserk
and he has to try again. He rolls a *4!* enabling a 40-point push, but
he decides to be conservative and only push 30 again. 30 END (which is
more than he has, so burns some STUN as END) + 8D6 more STUN (which is
more than he has, so he starts taking BODY), and breaks free of his
Entangle with a half phase to spare, whereupon he falls to the floor
twitching in a self-imposed near-coma.
It's a great tool for allowing great pushes, but still gives a
cause-and-effect from exceeding one's own abilities...
BTW, that is an actual event from a game I was in several years
ago...
-Capt. (Ouch, that one hurt) Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 01:25:13 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Pushing
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> >>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
>
> JD> Which Powers are Push-able? Just Attack Powers? Are Movement
> JD> Powers fair game? What about Teleportation? Would you allow a
> JD> character to Push his Force Field? And how long would *that* last?
>
> S.S.Rat counters;
>
> First point: there is no such thing as "attack powers". There are powers
> that may be used both offensively and defensively.
>
> Official Rule: any power that uses END may be pushed. Pushing constant or
> continuous powers lasts until the character's next action phase starts.
>
> GM's call: powers that have the 0 END advantage may be pushed. The pushed
> points should probably still cost END, though.
I would rule that any power costing END may be pushed. Official
rules aside, I allow for powers with the 'costs END' limitation to be
pushed as well. I would also rule that Powers bought to 0END could only
be pushed if they are not purchased with mechanical SFX; You can't
'push' a bullet from a gun to do more damage. If a power bought with
0END were to be pushed, though, it should be at the 'normal' END cost
for pushing.
>
> JD> Are partial Pushes acceptable? ex. A 10d6 EB pushed to only
> JD> 11d6 (assume no Advantages).
>
> Sure, at least in supers games where you decide how many active points you
> wish to push.
The games I used to play in had a great Pushing rule. One could
decide either to push by up to 10 active points for up to 10 END
(1pt/1END), OR make an EGO roll for BIG pushes. Every 1 the EGO roll
was bested by was 5 active points of push (at the same END cost rate),
HOWEVER - there was a cost. The first 10 a.p. cost only END, the next 5
also did 1D6 damage, the next 5 points +1D6(2D6), the next 5 +2D6(4D6),
the next 5 +4D6(8D6), etc. If the self-inflicted damage from pushing
exceeds the character's STUN, (s)he starts taking BODY (at a rate of 1/3
of the remaining STUN damage)
I.E., Capt. Spith has to push his STR to break out of an Entangle and
stop his teammate from killing someone and stepping all over his Code
against Killing. He makes his EGO roll by 6 (rolling 6 vs. his <12 EGO
roll) and pushes his STR by 30, costing 30 END and causing himself 8D6
STUN damage straight through. almost made it. Next phase, the villian
has already been killed, so Spith's Code vs. Killing drives him berserk
and he has to try again. He rolls a *4!* enabling a 40-point push, but
he decides to be conservative and only push 30 again. 30 END (which is
more than he has, so burns some STUN as END) + 8D6 more STUN (which is
more than he has, so he starts taking BODY), and breaks free of his
Entangle with a half phase to spare, whereupon he falls to the floor
twitching in a self-imposed near-coma.
It's a great tool for allowing great pushes, but still gives a
cause-and-effect from exceeding one's own abilities...
BTW, that is an actual event from a game I was in several years
ago...
-Capt. (Ouch, that one hurt) Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 02:08:04 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Tragic Tale of a Teenage Dinosaur-Man
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ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>
> I'm new at this Champions thing, so bear with me...
> I'm planning on running a Scenario with a few of my friends. One
> of the characters is an ancient Dinosaur-Man awakened from his
> millenium slumber. He's very big, and weighs alot (15 points of
> Growth and Density Increase [one level each], 0 END, Persistent,
> Always on).
<So how do I kep his growth from being drained...>
I would have to go with the general house rule answer. If something
is 0END,Persistent,Always On, it shouldn't be able to be drained. No
wait, all the Characteristics are like that.... Alright, let's try this;
You can't drain size, but if hit with a drain which would normally
affect a character's growth, figure the effect based on draining the
growth, then reduce all growth EFFECTS by the appropriate amount, but
keep the size and mass; a large enough cfharacter with his associated
STR drained may not even be able to support his own weight! Keeping the
mass will still give the character the KB resistence, but should also
require extra STR expenditure to accomodate the move the effectively
heavier body.
More generally, this can be applied to ANY physically altering
AlwaysOn power; drain would affect all the associated benefits, but not
affect the size/mass/limbs, etc.
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 02:16:17 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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Mark Lemming wrote:
>
> Mike Lehmann wrote:
> >
> > -=> Quoting Rick Ryker to Mike Lehmann <=-
> >
> > RR> HERO changed the rules so that you CAN have Density and Growth
> > affect your figured stats for an advantage cost.
> >
> > Must have been a recent change, or a really old one that got fixed
> > along the way.
>
> It existed in Golden Age of Champions by Firebird(?). Not the GAC that
> was printed by Hero games. So it was based on the Third edition anyhow.
> +1/4 for growth and +1/2 for DI if I remember.
> I don't think it was ever official Hero.
I don't remember ever seeing anything official, but my group always
used 'affects figured CHAR' as a +1/4 advantage on Growth or D.I.
My current house rule regarding this is that any power that is bought
as AlwaysOn (Okay, okay, '0END,Persistent,AlwaysOn'), automatically
affects any appropriate figured Characteristics, largely to keep ongoing
bookeeping of character points simpler as experience accrues and is
spent. I have no 'cost-effectiveness/balance' reason for this, just the
idea that "If it's an innate ability, it's treated the same as the rest
of the STATS."
But it _is_ just a house rule....
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 02:57:29 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: CHAR MAXes
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Robert A. West wrote:
> I agree that there is a slight unclarity about how to handle Adjustment
> Powers.
>
> On the side to include them under the rule:
> - Adjustment Powers *are* powers that raise characteristics.
> - They do not affect figured stats, just like Growth and D.I.
> - Heromaker implements it that way.
>
> On the side to exclude them under the rule:
> - Adjustment powers that *lower* characteristics are not
> included under the original rule. This produces some
> very odd asymmetries, particularly with Transfer.
> - If a list of examples is intended, it generally so indicates.
> Unqualified lists that can plausibly be exhaustive are
> generally meant to be exhaustive.
> - Since Hero did not include Density Increase in the Size Powers
> (where IMHO it logically belongs), they have no easy way
> to indicate Growth and Density Increase as a group. The
> actual phrasing may be as good as can be expected.
> - When in doubt, don't nullify a disadvantage.
>
> On balance, I would hold that Adjustment Powers are subject to
> the doubling rule, largely because the asymmetry strikes me as
> implausible. I have no doubt whatsoever that, under the rule written,
> Characteristics purchased as powers are subject to doubling. Lord only
> knows what was *intended*.
I've always played that *Powers* don't fall under the NCM banner; if
a character with NCM and 18 STR turns on his 4 levels of growth, he now
has 38 STR - he already has a limitation on the STR that he pays for the
growth END every phase (or paid points for reduced END) PLUS the END for
any STR used.
If the Growth or D.I. is 'innate' (0END,Persistent,AlwaysOn), then
the STR (and any other Characteristics gained) are figured in BEFORE any
other points are paid for stats.
I.E. Mongo bought 1 level D.I. and 1 level Growth AlwaysOn, and has
NCM. He starts out his CHARs with 20 STR and 11 BODY (among other
things). Any STR he buys in addition will be at double cost, and he can
only buy 9 more BODY at regular cost.
I.E. Mongo's brother Spud has 3 levels of growth, AlwaysOn. I would
not chrge him extra or reduce his STR foe exceeding 20 STR ('Base' STR
would be 25), but any STR he buys will be at double cost.
Armour bought as physical armour, or any other power-based defenses
(especially if bought through a focus) do not count against the CHAR
MAX, since they either a)cost END or b)can be lost/taken away.
An rule I used to implement in reference to NCM, however, affected
the use of Power Modifiers; any EC, VPP, or MP was affected by the NCM.
This is an extrapolation of my 'Characteristics as a "Human Abilities
EC"' concept.
I.E. FireBoy has a flame EC and NCM. He wants 6DC in his EC, which
would run him a base of 30 active points, but NCM doubles the cost over
20 active, so it costs him 40 active points for his powers, thus
20 EC-Flames
20 6D6 EB (30 active, 40 real)
20 15pd/15ed force field (30 act., 40 real)
40 20" flight (40 active, 60 real)
I used this rule in a 150-point superhero game to make the trade off
of power level and variety more significant. It also encouraged players
to keep individual power levels low (NCM was 'free'/0-point disad), and
concentrate on versatility.
<stuff snipped>
> I agree that applying the rule as I interpret it introduces the
> question of whether powered armor might give one character +15 STR and
> another +30 STR. I could see granting waivers on the doubled cost if the
> special effect made it seem silly and the use was not abusive. I also
> think I recall that Defender antedates Normal Characteristic Maxima.
> Could this be an error in conversion to 4th edition?
I've always ruled that various 'temporary' CHAR are not affected by
NCM. As with armour, force field, growth, and Power Armour based CHAR,
these are all seperate form the character's actual physical stats in
that they are not always with the character, and thus are already
limited. The complaint that Powered Armour grants a free loophole from
NCM, is not quite correct; in fact, Powered Armour usually has a Focus
limitation on it, thus should be unavailable often enough to 'pay for'
the bonus. This is OFTEN overlooked by GMs, and thus may seem like a
freebie, but a -1/2 limitation should put the character in harms way
without his/her armor every three or four sessions - that's the reason
for the limitation!
But as stated before, these are all just house rules that I've used
at different times in my RPG career.
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 03:01:07 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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Mike Lehmann wrote:
> I also have a related question.
>
> Under Density Increase and Growth, those powers provide STR, as well as
> either PD/ED (non-resistant) or BODY and STUN, respectively.
>
> I've always worked under the assumption that the STR granted by these
> powers cannot affect figured characteristics, because the power already
> adds to other figured stats (PD or STUN).
>
> However, I noticed such a discrepancy in the "Animals" section (pg
> 196-197, BBB), where (for example) the Horse w/ 15 pts of Growth and 10
> base STR has 5 PD for free (presumably, from it's now 25 points of STR.
> This would seem to imply that such STR *does* apply to figured stats.
I've already mentioned my views on AlwaysOn growth and D.I. in
another post. though I believe that the official line is that they never
affect any figured stats (unless there is actually an official advantage
for it).
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Pushing
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>>>>> "CS" == Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> writes:
CS> I would rule that any power costing END may be pushed. Official
CS> rules aside, I allow for powers with the 'costs END' limitation to be
CS> pushed as well.
Thing is, most powers that do not require Endurance make no sense if you
push them. Push your Life Support, for instance.
CS> I would also rule that Powers bought to 0END could only be pushed if
CS> they are not purchased with mechanical SFX; You can't 'push' a bullet
CS> from a gun to do more damage.
But you *can* push a mechanical arm's Strength beyond its rated limits.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
\ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:50:09 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: The Tragic Tale of Norse God of Thunder and The Mad Bomber
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Greetings Fellows,
I have a question as to the powers/Sf/x of items used in combat.
Norse God of Thunder has his Mystical Mallet that he can throw for
ridiculous ammounts of damage... and it returns.
What is this exactly? Is it a OAF (it can still be Grabbed or
hit with a ranged attack-- but it returns to his hand when thrown
upon his call... It can be deflected and caught by Armored Lativan
Sorcerer when he possess the Power Galatic, preventing the power from
being used because it travels along a physical path)? It is a
recoverable charge (easiest charge to recover in the world, if it is)?
What if there was a thrown object that returned along a certain
predetermined flight path, like the Dreadlocked Hunting Alien's
deadly Spinning Slash-Disk? (I'm thinking either a really limited TK,
a very weird Area of Effect along an ellipitical path, or perhaps even
flight and an AI bought just for the weapon [it's crazy, but it's a hi-tech
'smart' weapon). How do you deal with unusual mysical gizmos like these?
The Mad Bomber (a.k.a Grenado) has a bandoleer of grenades. He
can throw them, or just drom 'em where they lie. The throwing aspect is
muscle powered (using his STR to throw it...). What are the limitations?
The book states under notes for Grenades: Must be Thrown.
It also states the following as possible Limitations for Muscle Powered
Weapons: OAF, Independent, 1 Recoverable Charge (I don't think this
applies-- the recoverable part :> ). How would you work this out in a
Heroic Campagin if they were 'special' grenedes? How would you work
this out in a Superheroic campagin? What other powers/Sf/x can you see
a Grenade having (Flash, from the explosion, most probally).
...and what if Grenado decides to let the entire bandoleer of 15
grenades go 'boom' at once?
back to Norse God of Thunder... The Mystcial Mallet returns to his hand.
Does he take damage? What if he had a Gauntlet that prevented damage to
the hand he caught it in (is that 'Personal Immunity'
bought just for the
mallet through OIF Gauntlet, 'Hand Only"?).
...and how does the Dreadlocked Hunting Alien not cut his fingers off?
Yet again, I stand before you, clueless. Tell me what you think is
truest to the Champion system, works the best in game mehanics, or just comes
out to be an unusually weird, but suprisingly workable twist.
Jason 'Ooops! Sorry!!' Sullivan
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 06:59:21 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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At 10:02 PM 10/11/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "GH" == Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> writes:
>
>GH> The ones I can think of right now are:
>GH> --Linked (No debates, please!)
>
>The only reason that Linked is vague is because nobody bothered to
>seriously question Hero Games about it until fairly recently. Besides, it
>is not that Linked is vague, it is that the description is badly phrased.
I think that this is what Guy was meaning by "grey areas" things that
may or may not be specifically defined in the rulebook, but which are not
made clear in any case.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:29:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Tragic Tale of Norse God of Thunder and The Mad Bomber
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On Sun, 12 Oct 1997, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
Okay, I'll try taking a swing at this.
> Greetings Fellows,
> I have a question as to the powers/Sf/x of items used in combat.
> Norse God of Thunder has his Mystical Mallet that he can throw for
> ridiculous ammounts of damage... and it returns.
> What is this exactly? Is it a OAF (it can still be Grabbed or
> hit with a ranged attack-- but it returns to his hand when thrown
> upon his call... It can be deflected and caught by Armored Lativan
> Sorcerer when he possess the Power Galatic, preventing the power from
> being used because it travels along a physical path)? It is a
> recoverable charge (easiest charge to recover in the world, if it is)?
It really depends upon what *you* want it to be. In most cases, Thor's
(and yeah, you can use character names here, we don't mind) hammer is
written up as an OAF. The 'throw and have it return' stunt is just a
special effect of his (x)d6 Energy Blast (physical). It he could throw it
and then go find it and pick it up, *that* would be a "single recoverable
charge". Being defelected and caught by Doom is an example of Missle
Defelection/Reflection.
> What if there was a thrown object that returned along a certain
> predetermined flight path, like the Dreadlocked Hunting Alien's
> deadly Spinning Slash-Disk? (I'm thinking either a really limited TK,
> a very weird Area of Effect along an ellipitical path, or perhaps even
> flight and an AI bought just for the weapon [it's crazy, but it's a hi-tech
> 'smart' weapon). How do you deal with unusual mysical gizmos like these?
Boil it down to it's basics. The Predator tosses his blade and it flys
along an arc and returns to his hand. *Anything* in the path of the
attack can be hit. I would define this as an Area of Affect: Any. A few
other limitations (like No Range and OAF) should simulate everything
nicely. If you want a number of different effects for the balde, buy a
Multipower and tack in RKA, AoE: Line and what ever else you want.
> The Mad Bomber (a.k.a Grenado) has a bandoleer of grenades. He
> can throw them, or just drom 'em where they lie. The throwing aspect is
> muscle powered (using his STR to throw it...). What are the limitations?
If he can toss them or drop them and have them go off a moment later, then
the Advantage "Time Delay" should be used.
> The book states under notes for Grenades: Must be Thrown.
Actually, I use the Dark Champions Lim of "Range Based on STR" (-1/4),
since the Active Points x5 Range is usually *way* out of line for most
grenades.
> It also states the following as possible Limitations for Muscle Powered
> Weapons: OAF, Independent, 1 Recoverable Charge (I don't think this
> applies-- the recoverable part :> ). How would you work this out in a
> Heroic Campagin if they were 'special' grenedes? How would you work
> this out in a Superheroic campagin? What other powers/Sf/x can you see
> a Grenade having (Flash, from the explosion, most probally).
OAF is fine. Independant is not (they blow up... everytime you use them
you're outta points.) Recoverable doesn't work either, they blow up. In
a Heroic game (where you don't have to pay for weapons and armor and other
devices, who cares about points? Design the grenades and use them. In a
Superhero game, define the greandes and use any *logical* limitations and
you are done. Other powers for grenades? EB, RKA, Entangle, Flash,
Darkness.
> ...and what if Grenado decides to let the entire bandoleer of 15
> grenades go 'boom' at once?
In a Heroic Game, he can and the GM decides how much damage. IN a
Superhero game, he should be allowed to do so, but if he wants to do it
*alot*, then the GM should have him buy a power relating to this trick.
> back to Norse God of Thunder... The Mystcial Mallet returns to his hand.
> Does he take damage? What if he had a Gauntlet that prevented damage to
> the hand he caught it in (is that 'Personal Immunity'
> bought just for the
> mallet through OIF Gauntlet, 'Hand Only"?).
In order: No, it is part of the SFX. Uh.. I guess so. Actually, Thor's
gauntlet enabled him to *lift* his hammer, not prevent damage from
catching it. And as to the damage part upon catching it. That would be a
Side Effect, Personal Immunity would mean that he couldn't be hurt by his
hammer being thrown at him.
> ...and how does the Dreadlocked Hunting Alien not cut his fingers off?
SFX and really quick hands.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 97 15:37:56
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: The Tragic Tale of Norse God of Thunder and The Mad Bomber
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On Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:50:09 -0500 (EST), ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>Greetings Fellows,
> I have a question as to the powers/Sf/x of items used in combat.
>Norse God of Thunder has his Mystical Mallet that he can throw for
>ridiculous ammounts of damage... and it returns.
> What is this exactly? Is it a OAF (it can still be Grabbed or
>hit with a ranged attack-- but it returns to his hand when thrown
>upon his call... It can be deflected and caught by Armored Lativan
>Sorcerer when he possess the Power Galatic, preventing the power from
>being used because it travels along a physical path)? It is a
>recoverable charge (easiest charge to recover in the world, if it is)?
Generally, it's a RKA or EB, OIHID (if you check the archives, this has
been thoroughly thrashed out). Because it virtually never gets
intercepted/whatever, you could build AL with a mammoth Transfer. If
you want to make this a regular effect, then OAF or OIF will do.
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Stainless Steel Rat\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 97 15:40:42
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Pushing
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On 12 Oct 1997 09:03:42 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "CS" == Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> writes:
>
>CS> I would rule that any power costing END may be pushed. Official
>CS> rules aside, I allow for powers with the 'costs END' limitation to be
>CS> pushed as well.
>
>Thing is, most powers that do not require Endurance make no sense if you
>push them. Push your Life Support, for instance.
What about Pushing your Luck? <gdrlf>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:33:36 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: The Tragic Tale of Norse God of Thunder and The Mad Bomber
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>Greetings Fellows,
> I have a question as to the powers/Sf/x of items used in combat.
>Norse God of Thunder has his Mystical Mallet that he can throw for
>ridiculous ammounts of damage... and it returns.
> What is this exactly? Is it a OAF (it can still be Grabbed or
>hit with a ranged attack-- but it returns to his hand when thrown
>upon his call... It can be deflected and caught by Armored Lativan
>Sorcerer when he possess the Power Galatic, preventing the power from
>being used because it travels along a physical path)? It is a
>recoverable charge (easiest charge to recover in the world, if it is)?
Mjollnir is probably best represented by a Hand Attack with the Ranged
Advantage. I'd call it a OIF, as it was notoriously hard to take away from
Thor. The 'returning' part is just the SFX of the Ranged element of the Hand
Attack (EB could easily substitute, but then Thor's STR doesn't become a
factor).
> What if there was a thrown object that returned along a certain
>predetermined flight path, like the Dreadlocked Hunting Alien's
>deadly Spinning Slash-Disk? (I'm thinking either a really limited TK,
>a very weird Area of Effect along an ellipitical path, or perhaps even
>flight and an AI bought just for the weapon [it's crazy, but it's a hi-tech
>'smart' weapon). How do you deal with unusual mysical gizmos like these?
You could try a Selective Area Effect. Personally, I don't like AE: Line for
this sort of thing - I think AE: Any would be better, perhaps with a small
limitation to prevent 'dense' Area Effect attacks. Sort of an AE: Any
Reasonably Plausible Flight Path....
> The Mad Bomber (a.k.a Grenado) has a bandoleer of grenades. He
>can throw them, or just drom 'em where they lie. The throwing aspect is
>muscle powered (using his STR to throw it...). What are the limitations?
Range Based on STR (-1/4). Decide on the weight of grenades, and apply the
STR Throwing chart.
>The book states under notes for Grenades: Must be Thrown.
>It also states the following as possible Limitations for Muscle Powered
>Weapons: OAF, Independent, 1 Recoverable Charge (I don't think this
>applies-- the recoverable part :> ). How would you work this out in a
>Heroic Campagin if they were 'special' grenedes?
IGNORE the 'Independant' limitation in that section. It's there if you want
to build one-of-a-kind magic items for heroic campaigns (and the like),
where you don't get things back if you lose them (but seldom pay points for
them yourself anyways, b/c equipment is free). In a superheroic campaign,
you don't want to use Independant very often.
> How would you work
>this out in a Superheroic campagin? What other powers/Sf/x can you see
>a Grenade having (Flash, from the explosion, most probally).
Flash, Double Knockback (concussion grenade), Smoke (Darkness), Choking
Fumes (NND EB)...all sorts of things.
> ...and what if Grenado decides to let the entire bandoleer of 15
>grenades go 'boom' at once?
He'll need Autofire, or Time Delayed grenades, or a common Trigger, or just
a separate, beefy, heavily limited attack that goes boom real nice but eats
all remaining charges.
> back to Norse God of Thunder... The Mystcial Mallet returns to his hand.
>Does he take damage?
Nope, that's SFX.
>What if he had a Gauntlet that prevented damage to
>the hand he caught it in (is that 'Personal Immunity'
>bought just for the
>mallet through OIF Gauntlet, 'Hand Only"?).
Mostly, I'd ignore it. You _could_ buy some sort of Side Effects or other
Limitation on the power to simulate him screwing up once in awhile, but I
wouldn't bother.
> ...and how does the Dreadlocked Hunting Alien not cut his fingers off?
Good technology, smart weaponry, and fast hands.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:33:40 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Pushing
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>>Thing is, most powers that do not require Endurance make no sense if you
>>push them. Push your Life Support, for instance.
>
>What about Pushing your Luck? <gdrlf>
Here's a thought - let characters 'push' their luck. No END is involved, but
for every extra 1D6 of Luck they want, they have to simultaneously roll 1D6
of Unluck as well. Unluck dice cancel out any Lucky dice - just use the
remainder.
Example: Lucky Luke has 3D6 Luck and is in a bad situation. He decides to
Push His Luck and takes an extra 3D6 of Luck. He then rolls NINE dice - 6
Luck Dice, and 3 Unluck Dice. His Luck Dice come up with one '6', but his
Unluck come up with two '1's. Lucky Luke trips over his own shoelaces
instead of rolling to safety...
Alternatively, you could say that for every extra die of Luck they want, the
lower numbers on the Luck dice become Unluck. Example: Lucky Luke wants two
(2) extra Luck dice, but now the ones and twos on _all_ his Luck dice are
Unluck.
Either one makes 'Pushing Your Luck' more risk than it's worth (which is why
it's called Pushing Your Luck, natch) as before Unluck didn't rear it's ugly
head on Luck rolls (Luck rolls _never_ make the situation worse, as it stands).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"John and Ron Prins\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 97 19:17:24
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Pushing
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On Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:33:40 -0400 (EDT), John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>>Thing is, most powers that do not require Endurance make no sense if you
>>>push them. Push your Life Support, for instance.
>>
>>What about Pushing your Luck? <gdrlf>
>
>Here's a thought - let characters 'push' their luck. No END is involved, but
>for every extra 1D6 of Luck they want, they have to simultaneously roll 1D6
>of Unluck as well. Unluck dice cancel out any Lucky dice - just use the
>remainder.
>
>Example: Lucky Luke has 3D6 Luck and is in a bad situation. He decides to
>Push His Luck and takes an extra 3D6 of Luck. He then rolls NINE dice - 6
>Luck Dice, and 3 Unluck Dice. His Luck Dice come up with one '6', but his
>Unluck come up with two '1's. Lucky Luke trips over his own shoelaces
>instead of rolling to safety...
>
>Alternatively, you could say that for every extra die of Luck they want, the
>lower numbers on the Luck dice become Unluck. Example: Lucky Luke wants two
>(2) extra Luck dice, but now the ones and twos on _all_ his Luck dice are
>Unluck.
>
>Either one makes 'Pushing Your Luck' more risk than it's worth (which is why
>it's called Pushing Your Luck, natch) as before Unluck didn't rear it's ugly
>head on Luck rolls (Luck rolls _never_ make the situation worse, as it stands).
Ooh! Evil. I like the latter, but my post *was* a jest, after all.
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:24:02 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Normal Characteristic Maxima
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> You have to interpret stuff even more vague than the HSR, and "much
> more" is at stake there? I suppose how worried I should be depends on what
> you do for a living! (Gee, I hope you don't work at NORAD....) ;-]
It sounds as if you have never taken a peek at the Internal Revenue Code, nor
at its implementing regulations! For that matter, it sounds as if you have
never read anything written by a big-six consulting firm! ;-) For that
matter, have you never used "man?" <gd&r from all Unixphiles>
Most user-written requirements are written and reviewed by people who are
expert at the process being described, but are used by people who have never
seen the process in question. Does this sound like publishing a set of game
rules? It is very tough to realize the huge number of assumptions that one
brings to writing a process description, and to communicate those assumptions
in a clear way, especially if the assumptions include "common sense"
exceptions.
> . . . Let's just leave
> the poor idiots alone and try to figure out what the Dickens they thought
> they were talking about! ;-]
Although, unlike you, I have no published modules to my credit, I have a
great deal of empathy for what it means to write clear rules. I have been
involved for twenty years in writing and publishing the PrinceCon system,
which is the Princeton SGU's variation of D&D (*not* AD&D). Our original
goal was to write rules of such clarity that twenty GMs who rarely game
together can produce consistent results across a weekend-long tournament.
This is a tough standard, and probably an impossible one to meet.
In fact, one of the reasons that the SGU has placed its rules on the Web is
so that those people who like our system and use it in their own campaigns
can see corrections and clarifications as they are approved.
> ...
> >Lord only knows what was *intended*.
>
> On that last comment, I wouldn't be so sure. Steve Peterson,
> has actually come out and said that he doesn't know [what he meant]
Deconstructionism, anyone?
>
> And here's where I fall squarely on the other side of the camp from you,
> though Vox' statement is unclear. If one has NCM, then a character may buy
> part of his Characteristics as Powers, provided (a) he sacrifices any
> Figured Characteristics, and more importantly (b) the GM approves. In my
> own campaign, you generally have to purchase the increased Characteristics
> through a Focus or Battlesuit, or get special permission.
Well, as you said, we are on opposite sides of the camp, both equally
convinced that we are implementing the rule as expressed.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
From: PhilCopp@aol.com
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 18:36:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: PBeM Games or NYC game
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Any PBeM Champs gamesout there that need a player?
or
NYC based face to face game that needs a player or two Please E mail me
Thanks
Phil Copp
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 21:12:55 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Pushing
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> >Thing is, most powers that do not require Endurance make no sense if you
> >push them. Push your Life Support, for instance.
In which case, you wouldn't
>
> What about Pushing your Luck? <gdrlf>
No, no, that's for the Players, not their characters....
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:05:12 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Pushing
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John and Ron Prins wrote:
> >What about Pushing your Luck? <gdrlf>
>
> Here's a thought - let characters 'push' their luck. No END is involved, but
> for every extra 1D6 of Luck they want, they have to simultaneously roll 1D6
> of Unluck as well. Unluck dice cancel out any Lucky dice - just use the
> remainder.
<more details/example snippoed>
Actually, I've always played that when a character has both Luck (paid
for) *and* Unluck, they are at the mercy of both at all times; when
making a luck roll their chosen 'luck' number (6 or 1) generates a
result of unluck on the opposite die result (1 or 6), and the same with
unluck - whenever unluck is rolled, luck can occur on the opposite die
result. I only do this with the players knowledge and approval, of
course, but someone twisted enough to want both luck AND unluck usually
likes the extra chaos introduced by this rule...
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:30:40 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
CC: hero-l@emerald.omg.org
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
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Vance Scott wrote:
>
> I'd like to borrow peoples thoughts on time lines.
All statements are IMHO, by definition. Forgive me if I am belaboring
the obvious at any point.
I agree that general principles will apply, but there are also a couple
of cases that determine how a timeline will be built.
I like to think of campaigns in terms of a "reference world." All works
of fiction take an assumed background from previous works of fiction and
from the real world. The choice may be explicit or implicit, but it
exists, and the more the GM understands about his choice, the better the
campaign will be. Of course, reference worlds have their "meta-reference
worlds" and so on to the "ur-reference world", which is reality.
> 1. What is a time line?
You omit that most campaigns contain two time lines: one for the GM and
the other for players. Changes to the time line will occur as you learn
more about your campaign world, and those changes should ideally be
tracked. Of course, I do this perfectly. Right. Sure I do. :-)
>
> 2. What purposes do fictional time lines serve?
(a) They help the GM get to know his world.
(b) They help the GM think of history in terms of cause and effect.
(c) They help the GM avoid embarrassment.
(d) They help the players get a sense of the campaign world.
(e) They form a basis for planting clues that players can interpret
through their own ingenuity, rather than character die rolls.
(f) They form a skeleton around which to build narratives.
(g) They can help inspire and motivate scenarios.
(h) This list is not exhaustive by any means.
>
> 3. How do I construct a fictional time line?
>
Before beginning a timeline, take a look at the timeline for the
reference world, or reference worlds, and decide how closely you want to
follow your source. Some important issues are:
- Adopt the timeline with changes or just be inspired by it?
- If adopting a timeline, at what point will you begin making significant
changes? I call this the "Point of First Divergence."
- How long does a typical reign/government last? A typical dynasty or
political party? A typical governmental system?
- What is the timescale for technological change in each era?
- What is the timescale for societal change in each era?
- What is the granularity of the time line that you will find useful?
- What is the current date?
- How much work are you willing to put into this?
It is important to have good source material to avoid inventing
absurdities, such as "A short interregnum of 300 years." I have seen
people drop such things carelessly into timelines, both for campaigns and
for published works, and it looks silly. It is also important not to
bite off more than you can chew.
I would say that five generations (200 years for humans) is about the
minimum for a useful timeline. Be careful about elves, immortals and
suchlike: they will lengthen timelines of necessity. Of course, the
portion of the timeline within PC memory needs to be very detailed, while
that within the memory of grandparents can be less so, and history before
that is, well, history.
This is where the reference world comes to the rescue. It can save you a
lot of work if you put your fantasy world sometime in the early Fourth
Age of Middle Earth, because you have a whole history with which to play,
and can concentrate on those items of importance to your campaign. For a
super-heroic or SF campaign, real-world timelines, like real-world maps
are a *huge* timesaver. Again, you can concentrate on the aspects of use
to you.
Now, that you have made your background decisions, lay out the portion of
your timeline (if any) prior to the Point of First Divergence. Thus, if
you determine that superpowers first affected history in 1888, then the
PoFD is 1888. The timeline up to that point can be obtained from any
almanac. This does not mean that Robert E. Lee and Ulysses S. Grant were
not metahumans, just that the history of the Civil War is explained by
them, not changed by them.
Next, lay out your reference timeline from the PoFD onward. Decide on
the most important events or general trends for each time period,
starting with a convenient time scale that represents at least 5% of the
whole. This, if PoFD is 1888, then your first time period should be a
decade. If you are doing a completely original timeline starting at
1,000,000 years ago, your initial timescale should be around 50,000
years.
For each period, decide what you want to keep from your reference
timeline, and what you want to insert. Don't worry too much at this
point about precise dates -- they will probably only get in the way.
Once you have done this, work your way "up the time chart". Say, you
have indicated generally what is happening in an epoch (50,000 years):
there is war between the Light Elves and the Dark Elves; the Dark Elves
are driven underground after the great Battle of Al'armina and
become Trolls). You can now determine events to a precision of
approximately a myriad (10,000 years). You should decide in which myriad
the Great Battle occured, and how the war was prolonged for so long.
Remember that 10,000 years takes humans from the Paleolithic to the
Information Age. You will want to think about why technology did not
progress, or why it regressed in such a long period.
In each case, think about how events are going to fit together as a
coherent whole. At some point, history ceases to be global and becomes
more local. Societies will differentiate, and you will want to think
about how that works. If World War I was won in 1915 by British
superheroes, the history of the twentieth century will certainly be
different: no influenza epidemic in 1919; no Bolshevik Revolution, or if
so, the troops were home and still loyal to the Tsar; etc.
Iterate the process of moving down the time chart. As you do, you will
know dates more and more precisely, and fill in more and more detail on
each time interval. Obviously, the closer to the present, the more
detail you require. Present-day history classes will cover the influence
of superpowers on events. Popular culture will be affected in some way.
On the other hand, if legend reports that Queen Beruthiel kept
demonic familiars in the shape of cats, only players with KS: Legends may
know of it, and even they may not believe it.
> 4. How do I use a fictional time line?
That depends what you are doing. The detailed knowledge of your campaign
world gained by constructing a timeline *should* suggest ways to use it.
For example,
- You may decide to prohibit time travel, to avoid the complications.
- You may decide to set up a time travel scenario to some crucial point.
- Events in history will probably suggest scenarios.
- Ancient rivalries and animosities come to the surface.
- Ancient artifacts are always fodder for any campaign.
- Are ancient races going to make a comeback?
- Some of it will just make pretty background. You don't
have to put monsters in every set of ruins.
- Timelines make wonderful hooks for clues of all sorts.
- Timelines suggest how NPCs have reacted in the past.
- Timelines form a basis for both PC and NPC characterizations.
And the list goes on....and the list goes on....
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:30:40 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
CC: hero-l@emerald.omg.org
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
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Vance Scott wrote:
>
> I'd like to borrow peoples thoughts on time lines.
All statements are IMHO, by definition. Forgive me if I am belaboring
the obvious at any point.
I agree that general principles will apply, but there are also a couple
of cases that determine how a timeline will be built.
I like to think of campaigns in terms of a "reference world." All works
of fiction take an assumed background from previous works of fiction and
from the real world. The choice may be explicit or implicit, but it
exists, and the more the GM understands about his choice, the better the
campaign will be. Of course, reference worlds have their "meta-reference
worlds" and so on to the "ur-reference world", which is reality.
> 1. What is a time line?
You omit that most campaigns contain two time lines: one for the GM and
the other for players. Changes to the time line will occur as you learn
more about your campaign world, and those changes should ideally be
tracked. Of course, I do this perfectly. Right. Sure I do. :-)
>
> 2. What purposes do fictional time lines serve?
(a) They help the GM get to know his world.
(b) They help the GM think of history in terms of cause and effect.
(c) They help the GM avoid embarrassment.
(d) They help the players get a sense of the campaign world.
(e) They form a basis for planting clues that players can interpret
through their own ingenuity, rather than character die rolls.
(f) They form a skeleton around which to build narratives.
(g) They can help inspire and motivate scenarios.
(h) This list is not exhaustive by any means.
>
> 3. How do I construct a fictional time line?
>
Before beginning a timeline, take a look at the timeline for the
reference world, or reference worlds, and decide how closely you want to
follow your source. Some important issues are:
- Adopt the timeline with changes or just be inspired by it?
- If adopting a timeline, at what point will you begin making significant
changes? I call this the "Point of First Divergence."
- How long does a typical reign/government last? A typical dynasty or
political party? A typical governmental system?
- What is the timescale for technological change in each era?
- What is the timescale for societal change in each era?
- What is the granularity of the time line that you will find useful?
- What is the current date?
- How much work are you willing to put into this?
It is important to have good source material to avoid inventing
absurdities, such as "A short interregnum of 300 years." I have seen
people drop such things carelessly into timelines, both for campaigns and
for published works, and it looks silly. It is also important not to
bite off more than you can chew.
I would say that five generations (200 years for humans) is about the
minimum for a useful timeline. Be careful about elves, immortals and
suchlike: they will lengthen timelines of necessity. Of course, the
portion of the timeline within PC memory needs to be very detailed, while
that within the memory of grandparents can be less so, and history before
that is, well, history.
This is where the reference world comes to the rescue. It can save you a
lot of work if you put your fantasy world sometime in the early Fourth
Age of Middle Earth, because you have a whole history with which to play,
and can concentrate on those items of importance to your campaign. For a
super-heroic or SF campaign, real-world timelines, like real-world maps
are a *huge* timesaver. Again, you can concentrate on the aspects of use
to you.
Now, that you have made your background decisions, lay out the portion of
your timeline (if any) prior to the Point of First Divergence. Thus, if
you determine that superpowers first affected history in 1888, then the
PoFD is 1888. The timeline up to that point can be obtained from any
almanac. This does not mean that Robert E. Lee and Ulysses S. Grant were
not metahumans, just that the history of the Civil War is explained by
them, not changed by them.
Next, lay out your reference timeline from the PoFD onward. Decide on
the most important events or general trends for each time period,
starting with a convenient time scale that represents at least 5% of the
whole. This, if PoFD is 1888, then your first time period should be a
decade. If you are doing a completely original timeline starting at
1,000,000 years ago, your initial timescale should be around 50,000
years.
For each period, decide what you want to keep from your reference
timeline, and what you want to insert. Don't worry too much at this
point about precise dates -- they will probably only get in the way.
Once you have done this, work your way "up the time chart". Say, you
have indicated generally what is happening in an epoch (50,000 years):
there is war between the Light Elves and the Dark Elves; the Dark Elves
are driven underground after the great Battle of Al'armina and
become Trolls). You can now determine events to a precision of
approximately a myriad (10,000 years). You should decide in which myriad
the Great Battle occured, and how the war was prolonged for so long.
Remember that 10,000 years takes humans from the Paleolithic to the
Information Age. You will want to think about why technology did not
progress, or why it regressed in such a long period.
In each case, think about how events are going to fit together as a
coherent whole. At some point, history ceases to be global and becomes
more local. Societies will differentiate, and you will want to think
about how that works. If World War I was won in 1915 by British
superheroes, the history of the twentieth century will certainly be
different: no influenza epidemic in 1919; no Bolshevik Revolution, or if
so, the troops were home and still loyal to the Tsar; etc.
Iterate the process of moving down the time chart. As you do, you will
know dates more and more precisely, and fill in more and more detail on
each time interval. Obviously, the closer to the present, the more
detail you require. Present-day history classes will cover the influence
of superpowers on events. Popular culture will be affected in some way.
On the other hand, if legend reports that Queen Beruthiel kept
demonic familiars in the shape of cats, only players with KS: Legends may
know of it, and even they may not believe it.
> 4. How do I use a fictional time line?
That depends what you are doing. The detailed knowledge of your campaign
world gained by constructing a timeline *should* suggest ways to use it.
For example,
- You may decide to prohibit time travel, to avoid the complications.
- You may decide to set up a time travel scenario to some crucial point.
- Events in history will probably suggest scenarios.
- Ancient rivalries and animosities come to the surface.
- Ancient artifacts are always fodder for any campaign.
- Are ancient races going to make a comeback?
- Some of it will just make pretty background. You don't
have to put monsters in every set of ruins.
- Timelines make wonderful hooks for clues of all sorts.
- Timelines suggest how NPCs have reacted in the past.
- Timelines form a basis for both PC and NPC characterizations.
And the list goes on....and the list goes on....
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Pushing
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:32:55 -0700
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On Sunday, October 12, 1997 10:53 AM, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>Here's a thought - let characters 'push' their luck. No END is
involved, but
>for every extra 1D6 of Luck they want, they have to simultaneously
roll 1D6
>of Unluck as well. Unluck dice cancel out any Lucky dice - just use
the
>remainder.
I like the idea, but I think that it should be allowed to anyone, not
just people with Luck. Give all players a chance to tempt fate by
"Pushing their Luck". Lucky players just get more dice on the Luck
side, unlucky ones get more dice on the Unluck side.
I sometimes do something like this for determining random effects. For
example, a character doesn't know what button to push on a control
panel, and so chooses at random, or a group of characters are about to
have a large rock fall on one of them, and I need to choose which one.
What I would do would be to say, "OK, everyone, luck vs. unluck rolls,
please." Everyone would roll three dice + their luck for luck, and
three dice plus their Unluck for Unluck. Then, count both sides
normally. Successes on one side cancel successes on the other.
Example: Jimmy the Cracker has only seconds to determine which wire to
cut to stop the explosion. He has no clue whatsoever, so he cuts as
fast as he can, at random. He rolls three dice of luck and three dice
of Unluck. Rolling two sixes of luck and one one of Unluck, he gets
one level of luck. He manages to cut the wire just in time to stop the
bomb and save the trapped hostages, but not in time to help his
comrade who was bleeding to death.
Example 2: A group of players are about to be hit with rocks thrown
from a nearby volcano. One player rolls three levels Unluck, no luck,
and so gets a really big rock. Two roll at least one level of Unluck
over their luck, and get hit with smaller rocks. One gets two levels
of luck, and not only is not hit, but gets to see that the Macguffin
is about to be hit in time to protect it with his shield.
I like the idea of doing something like this when a player calls for
it, or whenever the GM thinks it is appropriate. I think I will add it
to my house rule for "Luck vs. Unluck".
Filksinger
X-Sender: nezmaster@mail.ntr.net
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 02:46:43 -0400
From: The Nez Master <nezmaster@ntr.net>
Subject: ICQ
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I've discovered ICQ. Anyone want to start an online champions game via icq
either
the mid afternoons (12-3am) or the late night early morning (12-3am).
Email me
250, four color with shades of grey, but by no means dark champions.
play would be once a week.
(ICQ is an internet independent chat programthat works in it's own
windows..worth checking out!)
-------------------------Nez Master--------------------
Second founder of the backwards philosophy
http://www.ntr.net/~nezmaster
Nothing is certain
_______________________________________________________
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Heromaker Printing Problems
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 02:00:57 -0700
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Because I don't have Heromaker, I haven't been paying close attention
to the Heromaker threads. However, I noticed that several people
mentioned printing problems. My apologies if someone already pointed
this out, but on the 7th Hero Games posted an article on solving
printing problems with Heromaker.
It is written by Theala Sildorian, and can be found at
http://www.herogames.com/herogames/new/new.html .
I hope this helps someone.
Filksinger
Comments: Authenticated sender is <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca>
From: "Vance Scott" <vances@sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 09:00:57 +0000
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
Reply-to: vances@sympatico.ca
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> hows about actual contributions? even if not fer yer own campaign,
> but just fer fun? ne1 else one the list interested in
> a cooperative 'generic' superheroic timeline? just for the hell of it? *eg*
Actually Rook has a time line set-up on his Web page that allows
submissions, but I think an alternate champions time line would be an
interesting, and fun project. I think we should limit ourselves to
the characters presented in the various champioins products.
> >Some questions that might help replies be more useful.
> >
> >1. What is a time line?
> > - A time line is a chronologically ordered history. A time line
> > records memorable, and important events for posterity.
> > - I think I have this one covered, but in any project it's important
> > to define just what you are working with. So if you think I missed
> > something feel free to post such.
> >
> >2. What purposes do fictional time lines serve?
> >
>
> often useful- if they are complex enough. .for instance for time-travel.
> i have a huge super-duper timeline which is ripped off a historical one
> plus i've added super-stuff and things like that to it. . .it's st out
> like a flow chart so you can see generally what causes what, and when
> cultures interact. .. in a time-travel scenario of mine the pc's went
> back in time and killed a race of nasty dinosaur-men in prehistoric
> south america. NOW, i look on my trusty history flowchart. . . aha!
> those doni-mean and a band of FEATHERES SERPANTS in south america
> wipe each other out in my timeline. . .sooo, when the conquistadors
> get to south america (i think it wuz them) the find a massive empire
> ruled by feathered serpants! *eg* and if the pc's get there too they
> can decide what to do. .. but hell, let's face it- it's not like
> the europeans DESERVE to be rescued. ..
Depends if you're of european background, and Spanish background I'd
immagine. Although, as the feathered serpents are not human it might
be very important for any human reguardless of background. I must say
that your time travelling time line flow chart is very entertaining,
and particularly useful for a time travelling campaign.
> >3. How do I construct a fictional time line?
> >
>
> structurally, i'd say do a flow-diagram, even though it's not really
> 'historially correct'. AND tie it into a map or two. . .
>
A map or two, to what purpose?
> >4. How do I use a fictional time line?
> >
>
> in copntemplation and modification. make changes and additions after an
> adventure, DON'T attempt to use it as an on-the spot resource (believe
> me, nothing slows the game more'n a flowchart- cept maybe roleaster crit
> tables)
>
Sounds like solid advice.
Vance Scott
Vanquisher of all foes.
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 03:17:47 -0700
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On Sunday, October 12, 1997 7:50 PM, Robert A. West wrote:
>Vance Scott wrote:
>>
>> I'd like to borrow peoples thoughts on time lines.
>
>All statements are IMHO, by definition. Forgive me if I am
belaboring
>the obvious at any point.
>
>I agree that general principles will apply, but there are also a
couple
>of cases that determine how a timeline will be built.
<snip>
After looking at what you wrote, I have to generally agree with just
about everything. I have looked at the timeline that I wrote for my
PBEM game, and it matches yours in almost every respect. The biggest
difference is that I haven't identified a Point of Divergence, partly
because in a very real sense, the players are living through it, even
though paranormals have always existed.
About the only thing I might add is something that I did partly, at
first, because of download times. I started by writing my timeline
with each time period (starting in multicentury pieces, and shrinking
as time went on) prefaced by a description of what was happening in
paranormal-human relations during this period of time. Then, each time
period would have specific events, placed at least to the year,
showing events that occurred during that time period, often explaining
or illustrating the overall synopsis. However, my PBEM game timeline
was getting rather long. According to my beta of Front Page 98, it
would have an average of 17 seconds download time, and was still
growing.
So I broke it in two. First, I created a general overview only
timeline, and made that the first thing people who wanted the timeline
would download. Then, if they wanted more details, they could click on
the "Detailed Timeline" link, and the full timeline would appear on
their screen.
I found that I liked the dual timeline. The overview helped me keep
things in perspective, and I expect it helps others, too. I decided
that the next time I wanted a timeline, that I would do it in this two
part form.
That's about all I have to add. Everything else I have to say on the
subject has just been made a "Yup, he's right there, too," by Robert
West.
If anyone wants to see my timeline, try
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/2816/timeline.htm . I hope
you find it useful.
Filksinger
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 06:56:33 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net>
Subject: Player input (was:Re: Antinomy/Tragedy/No-Win
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Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>
> Really only putting forth examples here, from my experience...
>
> Players do sometimes ask for things that are downright *horrible*
> for their characters.
> There is room in some games for tragedy, antinomy (like Nimbus final
> scene, above), and No-Win situations. They're not for everyone, or all the
> time (unless you have some peculiar tastes), but they're viable anyway.
I did something like this last year. I had been running a Martial Artist
Energy projector (Think Marvel Darkforce stuff) and I came up to the GM
and said "Hey, I'd like you to kill Black Cat, bring her back without
her Martial arts, have her get possessed by the 'evil' side of her
powers, go badguy for a while, get captured, depowered sent to jail and
then turn into a full blown 'mystic' Martial Artist." Yes even then I
used one sentance for it then 8)
It took about 5 months to play through (with some pretty long streches
where she was out of play (dead or jailed). It was wonderfull. She's
been pardoned but a lot of people don't trust her too much....
And a question, how many of you GMs out there have, or want, this level
of player input. I get a lot of plot requests from my players and try to
work them in. I personally think it is wonderfull, but have run into GMs
that don't want 'the players plotting the campaign'. Just curious.
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 06:02:49 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: ICQ
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At 02:46 AM 10/13/97 -0400, The Nez Master wrote:
>I've discovered ICQ. Anyone want to start an online champions game via icq
>either
> the mid afternoons (12-3am) or the late night early morning (12-3am).
>Email me
What time zone?
>250, four color with shades of grey, but by no means dark champions.
>play would be once a week.
>
>(ICQ is an internet independent chat programthat works in it's own
>windows..worth checking out!)
Where can one get this?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 06:05:38 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Pushing
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At 03:40 PM 10/12/97, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>>Thing is, most powers that do not require Endurance make no sense if you
>>push them. Push your Life Support, for instance.
>
>What about Pushing your Luck? <gdrlf>
Hey, I've had this in my games for a long time, even before it appeared
in the "Champoions Minus" column of Adventurer's Club way back when.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 06:13:57 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Pushing
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At 10:32 PM 10/12/97 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>I sometimes do something like this for determining random effects. For
>example, a character doesn't know what button to push on a control
>panel, and so chooses at random, or a group of characters are about to
>have a large rock fall on one of them, and I need to choose which one.
>
>What I would do would be to say, "OK, everyone, luck vs. unluck rolls,
>please." Everyone would roll three dice + their luck for luck, and
>three dice plus their Unluck for Unluck. Then, count both sides
>normally. Successes on one side cancel successes on the other.
[Examples snipped]
>I like the idea of doing something like this when a player calls for
>it, or whenever the GM thinks it is appropriate. I think I will add it
>to my house rule for "Luck vs. Unluck".
I've done Luck vs Unluck Rolls almost exactly like this for 15 years
myself, and for very much the same purposes. (When I don't know how
something should come out, I just have the player(s) make a Luck vs Unluck
Roll!)
Maybe the Big Guys should consider sliding this into the rules
somewhere....
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: wbandsis@mail.westco.net
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:16:16 -0400
From: Charles Badger <wbandsis@westco.net>
Subject: Re: ICQ
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At 02:46 10/13/97 -0400, The Nez Master wrote:
>I've discovered ICQ. Anyone want to start an online champions game via icq
>either
> the mid afternoons (12-3am) or the late night early morning (12-3am).
>Email me
>
>250, four color with shades of grey, but by no means dark champions.
>play would be once a week.
>
>(ICQ is an internet independent chat programthat works in it's own
>windows..worth checking out!)
Is that EST or which time zone you talking about?
-----
Charles T. Badger
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:23:31 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Grey Areas
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Problems with Multiform and Duplication,
If one of your Multiforms or Duplicates has a power Limitation
"Always On," when you change forms, the power isn't on anymore...
...so if I could change into a Tyranasauraus Rex who is covered in flames,
(Growth and KA [Damage Shield] "Always On") I could just switch forms, and
my powers are 'off.' Is this a Limitation that's not a Limitation, or
does the trade off of one forms abilities over another's balance.
What about Suceptabilities and Dependencies? Capt'n Jurassic
Dino-form gets pretty hungry, and needs fresh meat, or he'll take damage
every day he goes without... Do the hunger pangs go away when he changes
forms? If they do, when he changes into his Dino-form, is he hungry again?
Does his Dino-form get hungry when it's 'off'?
What about shared conciousness between forms? (The Capt'n brain
dosen't shrink to the size of a walnut) Should it just be designed with
all of the same psychological Disadvantages and mental capacities? What
about the carry over effects from drugs between forms? Do they exist?
(...or would it depend on the Sf/x?) Capt'n Crinos looses a hand...
but does Jean Pierre, his other form, also loose a hand? What of the
death of a multiform? What about healing while 'off'?
...and if none of the above apply to the power normally, what
Advantages and Limitations could you place on the power so they
_would_?
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 09:32:35 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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>
> (this is all just my opinion, ect.. )
>
> At 12:47 PM 10/11/97 +0000, you wrote:
> >I'd like to borrow peoples thoughts on time lines. I'm trying to
> >construct a time line for my champions campaign, and I figured that
> >some help would be in order. Responses need not be limited to
> >SuperHero worlds. I'm fairly certain that time lines for fantasy, or
> >science-fiction worlds follow the same basic rules.
> >
>
> hows about actual contributions? even if not fer yer own campaign,
> but just fer fun? ne1 else one the list interested in
> a cooperative 'generic' superheroic timeline? just for the hell of it? *eg*
>
Actually, there is just such a thing on the net.
It's at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/LLNW/Timeline.html
Which is a subpage of:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Rook
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: I'm baaack!
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:35:44 -0500
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OPAL wrote:
<snip>
> Welcom back old-timer! How long were you playing Champs prior to '87?
> <snip>
> It'll be fun to have another one on the list who knows what I'm
> talking about when I get an attack of version-itis. :)
> <snip>
> * OFFLINE 1.58 * I am not a Rules Lawyer...I'm a Rules Activist.
> <snip>
>
I first started playing just prior to the release
of Champions II and the Enemies books.
Actually, I checked a few of my old campaign notes;
and I was still playing in 1989. Not quite ten years ago.
My prized possession is my hard cover first printing
of the Fourth Edition rules book, Dated 1989.
Some of our best campaigns used rules from all three Champions
rules books, Espionage, Danger International, and Golden Age Champions.
We made a lot of compromises to get the rules to work together.
Most of my gaming group play-tested Fantasy Hero and a few others.
"Which version was that rule from? Playtest version 99Z?"
Actually, it didn't get that bad. But, after play testing FH
and Robot Warriors, we were very happy to see the rules
consolidated and re-worked in Fourth Edition.
I like your tag line.
-RICK
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 09:36:01 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> Remember that Hero is a toolkit system: use what you need, ignore what you
> do not, and season to taste for your particular campaign. Sometimes the
> rulebook is deliberately vague so as to allow the GM to interpret things in
> a way appropriate to his campaign.
>
Is that any reason not to enumerate "grey areas" for discussion? For
that matter, if all the ambiguities were really intentional to allow for
GM interpetation, there would be more discussion of problem areas, such
as Linked, in the genre/campaign books.
My nominees for this topic are as follows.
Dispel and Suppress: although these are classed as Standard Powers, they
share the advantage structure of Adjustment Powers. Do the "defenses
count double" rules apply to these powers?
Blindness and Darkness: there are few guidelines for handling situations
where one or both characters cannot perceive things with a targeting
sense. The one clear guideline (1/2 DCV and OCV HTT, 0 OCV Ranged)
produced the absurdity that approximately equal opponents in HTH combat
are unaffected by being plunged into darkness.
Multiform and Duplication: The rules make many things massively unclear.
How does one set up a Multiform so that the stronger form is represented
by power "on" and the weaker by power "off". The distinction affects the
treatment of limitations, adjustment powers, Dispel and Suppress.
Moreover, if a 250-point character (150 pts of disads) builds a 200-point
multiform, is the multiform built with 100 or 150 points of disads?
Similar considerations apply to Duplication.
There are times that the dramatics of a situation call for disabling
wounds, rather than death. Better mechanics for handling these
situations would be nice, since players always want to intervene with
Aid, Regeneration (Usable on Others), etc. Similarly, the
effects of sleep deprivation, dehydration and starvation aren't anywhere
that I have found. While these things rarely come up, they do come up.
I have my own ways of handling these cases, and will be happy to discuss
them if people are interested, and if no one can cite me an
"official" answer.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:41:05 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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>My nominees for this topic are as follows.
>
>Dispel and Suppress: although these are classed as Standard Powers, they
>share the advantage structure of Adjustment Powers. Do the "defenses
>count double" rules apply to these powers?
I'd say yes, as Dispel or Suppress vs. PD would be far, far too cheap and
effective otherwise.
>Blindness and Darkness: there are few guidelines for handling situations
>where one or both characters cannot perceive things with a targeting
>sense. The one clear guideline (1/2 DCV and OCV HTT, 0 OCV Ranged)
>produced the absurdity that approximately equal opponents in HTH combat
>are unaffected by being plunged into darkness.
I don't see how that's absurd. I suppose it's fair to argue that two people
in the dark shouldn't be hitting one another very often anyways, but people
in HTH in the dark should know at least where their opponant relatively is
(a hex isn't that big), and the defender can't guage how to block and dodge
as well <shrug>.
>Multiform and Duplication: The rules make many things massively unclear.
>How does one set up a Multiform so that the stronger form is represented
>by power "on" and the weaker by power "off".
You tack an Accidental Change on the bigger form (i.e. "Change if Multiform
is Dispelled or Suppressed, 14-").
>The distinction affects the
>treatment of limitations, adjustment powers, Dispel and Suppress.
>Moreover, if a 250-point character (150 pts of disads) builds a 200-point
>multiform, is the multiform built with 100 or 150 points of disads?
>Similar considerations apply to Duplication.
You use the same base points - so a 250 pt character (100 base) has a 150
point Multi and a 50 point Multi. The first Multiform will have a maximum of
50 points in disadvantages, the second won't need any at all (50<100).
Personally, I think that you should only be paying for the base points in
the form anyway...
>There are times that the dramatics of a situation call for disabling
>wounds, rather than death. Better mechanics for handling these
>situations would be nice, since players always want to intervene with
>Aid, Regeneration (Usable on Others), etc.
Err...don't let the PCs have these powers? :-) Or you could apply the 'Comic
Book Convention' that attacks likely to do BODY damage only hit:
A.) People who can soak it (high resistant defenses), or
B.) People who can heal it (regeneration, etc.), or
C.) People who the plot demands gets hit.
So if the plot demands that UltraMightyMan breaks his leg, his leg gets
busted, and he gets to hobble around for a while on crutches, learning the
values of interdependance :-). OTOH, you could swipe a rule from Silhoutte
mechanics (Dream Pod 9; producers of Heavy Gear and Jovian Chronicles), and
give the person a -1 penalty to EVERYTHING they do per lost point of BODY.
Those wounds turn out to be disabling pretty quick. (note that's not a
direct swipe, but it's close)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 13 Oct 1997 12:51:35 -0400
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>>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes:
RAW> Dispel and Suppress: although these are classed as Standard Powers,
RAW> they share the advantage structure of Adjustment Powers.
Not really. Suppressed powers remain suppressed until the suppressor stops
spending Endurance. Dispelled powers may be reactivated at full power
during the dispellee's next action phase. This is quite unlike the
return/fade rates of Adjustment Powers.
RAW> Do the "defenses count double" rules apply to these powers?
No, they do not. This is why they are categorized as Standard Powers
rather than Adjustment Powers.
RAW> Blindness and Darkness: there are few guidelines for handling
RAW> situations where one or both characters cannot perceive things with a
RAW> targeting sense. The one clear guideline (1/2 DCV and OCV HTT, 0 OCV
RAW> Ranged) produced the absurdity that approximately equal opponents in
RAW> HTH combat are unaffected by being plunged into darkness.
Which is in fact pretty close to what should happen. Equal opponents given
equal handicaps will remain equally matched. The only difference between
reality and Hero is that a Hero fight will be somewhat shorter.
RAW> Multiform and Duplication: The rules make many things massively
RAW> unclear. How does one set up a Multiform so that the stronger form is
RAW> represented by power "on" and the weaker by power "off".
You build it "backwards" and let the special effects handle the rest.
RAW> The distinction affects the treatment of limitations, adjustment
RAW> powers, Dispel and Suppress. Moreover, if a 250-point character (150
RAW> pts of disads) builds a 200-point multiform, is the multiform built
RAW> with 100 or 150 points of disads? Similar considerations apply to
RAW> Duplication.
Both Multiform and Duplication are clear: all forms are built on the same
base point cost. If the base cost of the base form is 100 points plus
disadvantages, then all other forms are built on 100 points plus
disadvantages.
RAW> There are times that the dramatics of a situation call for disabling
RAW> wounds, rather than death.
Hero has them... unfortunately they can bog things down severely.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
\ head.
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:51:45 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Tragic Tale of Norse God of Thunder and The Mad Bomber
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On Sun, 12 Oct 1997, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> > Greetings Fellows,
> > I have a question as to the powers/Sf/x of items used in combat.
> > Norse God of Thunder has his Mystical Mallet that he can throw for
> > ridiculous ammounts of damage... and it returns.
> > What is this exactly?
>
> It really depends upon what *you* want it to be. In most cases, Thor's
> (and yeah, you can use character names here, we don't mind) hammer is
> written up as an OAF.
Not to start this debate again, but I'd say in most cases Thor's hammer is
written up as Only in Hero ID, since he's used in the BBB as an example
for OIHID. OTOH, the power described above is definitely just a straight
OAF EB.
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: PBeM Games or NYC game
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:07:40 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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>
> Any PBeM Champs gamesout there that need a player?
>
Only open game I know of is a Fantasy Hero one
based on the world of the daggerfall video game.
It's info, from the www.pbem.com website is:
RPG PBeM: Tamriel the rpg/pbem second call
From: Tony Preece - Chuff78002@aol.com
Date: Thursday, October 9, 1997 6:16 EDT
Daggerfall pbem 2nd call.
It looks as if there's a general lack of interest, so if i don't get
any more responses pretty darn quickly then it won't happen !
I need 4-6 players (maybe as many as 8-10)for a fantasy hero adventure
set in tamriel, i.e the world of the pc cd rom game, Daggerfall.
King Lysandu's soul has been put to rest...so why does everyone still
walk in fear and avoid the shadows at night...this time Sentinel is
the place where it seems foul things are at work as citizen's are
disappearing from their homes and off the streets...
But that's not the only mystery......
game works on many levels with loadsa plots and action ! game starts
mid-to late november.
WILL THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE ALREADY EXPRESSED AN INTEREST,PLEASE RECONTACT ME
SUFFERED SERVER PROBLEMS AND LOST THE ADDRESSES OF THOSE WHO SAID THEY
WANTED TO PLAY.........
Thank you for your time.....
PS Standard 150 point character's but any race allowed, and class.
Only exceptions are Daedra, Werewolf's and Vampires.
Lurkers!
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:24:28 -0700
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
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Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> Now, to bring this back to Champions -- anyone besides me been
> tempted to run a session or two with Bill Gates as the big villian?
> Next time I'm in the mood for humor I'm gonna do something of the sort. Or
> maybe Foxbat kidnaps him for some reason . . . hmmm. Nope, won't
> work, the players wouldn't want to rescue him.
>
> -Tim Gilberg
A friend has him as a recurring villian. He's actually an ancient
dragon that has assumed a human form and is slowly taking over the
world. Except for the dragon part he's just like this world's
version...
-Mark
X-Sender: champion@mailhost.cyberhighway.net
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:21:43 -0700
From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Re: ICQ
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At 02:46 AM 10/13/97 -0400, The Nez Master wrote:
>I've discovered ICQ. Anyone want to start an online champions game via icq
>either
> the mid afternoons (12-3am) or the late night early morning (12-3am).
>Email me
>
>250, four color with shades of grey, but by no means dark champions.
>play would be once a week.
>
>(ICQ is an internet independent chat programthat works in it's own
>windows..worth checking out!)
For RPG Chat, I have found PowWow to be much better. I run 3 different
24/7 Chat areas with powwow too. Feel free to stop in and leave a note on
the built-in message board!
Community Address: Subject:
guardhq@portland.cyberhighway.net SuperHero RPG and Chat
bronzegriffon@portland.cyberhighway.net Fantasy RPG and Chat
shurikin@portland.cyberhighway.net Star Trek RPG and Chat
You can download PowWow at http://tribal.com/powwow
Seeya there!
JD
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:22:36 -0700
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
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Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote:
> Just out of curiosity, am I the only person on the list who finds anything
> but the most vague of timelines to be restrictive when planning and running
> a game?
Possibly.
> When I was planning my Hudson Hawks campaign, I discussed with the
> players major events, but both they and I found it much easier to make
> things up as we went along.
After making it up, you write down when it happened, thus a timeline is
born.Do you know when super's began to appear in your world? Why?
In your world, the public hates paranormals, why is this? How did it
happen? What event's ahve occured because of it?
> When, for example, the heroine Firehawk showed
> up in the game (and she would become a primary NPC), it was just a matter
> of telling them her public record and moving on from there.
Her public record is a piece of the timeline...
> Ditto on
> villains. I didn't feel locked into a rigid view of the universe (back
> then), and one of the main reasons why I strongly considered *not* using
> the Golden Hawks Universe (though I acquiesced to player opinion) when
> planning my current FTF game was because I have the ponderous weight of
> four campaigns that I feel I have to be consistent with when I run. Now, I
> can't use X team because the Hawks beat 'em up or have Armstrong show up
> because of that wacky "Armstrong Debacle" plot from way back when.
>
True, but that only adds to the flavor for most of us.
> Now, I have over 400 pages of *stuff* and I think site lurkers are probably
> more familiar with it than I am these days. I don't think most players
> care about timelines -- mine certainly don't, and I do have a high opinion
> of their ability -- and I wonder why GMs feel it's necessary.
I got it into my head after having it demanded of me so many times.
> I mean, I
> guess I go into a game with a clear view of what I want to accomplish and
> what the world feels like, and I know enough about history to be internally
> consistent. I just see it as a waste of a GM's time -- I'd rather see the
> GM put work into the plots and the villains than a detailed history.
>
History forms the events, which form the people.
> History (and I say this as a person getting her BA in history in December)
> is all well and good, but really, the emphasis on the game should be, IMHO,
> on the present and not the past. Timelines force things -- let the players
> dictate the history and shape of the universe.
>
Timelines let you have consistancy without tripping over your own feet.
> Anyway, there's been a ton of discussion about this recently, both here and
> on #herochat, and I must say, Matthew and I have been shaking our heads
> over it. =)
>
Well, that certainly won't stop it from being discussed.
Many of us find it an invaluable tool. To know a worlds history is to know why
this or
that group disputes things. This or that political situation is happeneing.
Etc...
If I make a Korean Super Hero, knowing that historically Korea has been
attacked
over an over by Japan will help me gauge his reactions to Japanese Heroes.
If I make a mutant, knowing there's a group trying to get a mutant
registration group through, and
at sucha and such points in history they achived this and that goals will help
me understand my heroes
world view.
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat #gurps and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
Gurps is for discussion of the GURPS RolePlaying Game
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
Comments: Authenticated sender is <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca>
From: "Vance Scott" <vances@sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:55:04 +0000
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
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A grand job of answering my questions Robert. I'll try to come up
with a more detailed response, but that will take some consideration.
Vance Scott
Vanquisher of all foes.
Comments: Authenticated sender is <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca>
From: "Vance Scott" <vances@sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:55:04 +0000
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
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A grand job of answering my questions Robert. I'll try to come up
with a more detailed response, but that will take some consideration.
Vance Scott
Vanquisher of all foes.
X-Sender: champion@mailhost.cyberhighway.net (Unverified)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:14:58 -0700
From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: RE: I'm baaack!
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At 11:35 AM 10/13/97 -0500, Rick Ryker wrote:
>Actually, I checked a few of my old campaign notes;
>and I was still playing in 1989. Not quite ten years ago.
>My prized possession is my hard cover first printing
>of the Fourth Edition rules book, Dated 1989.
I have one of those! And it was only recently that the binding finally
came loose...but some hot glue fixed that right up...
(This was one of the things that most people were complaining about with
those books, was the crappy binding job)
Jim
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:54:13 -0500
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net>
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>Try the following experiment with two friends. Rope off a ring ten feet
>by ten feet. This represents roughly two adjacent hexes, with a small
>allowance for the fact that hex boundaries are not roped off. One friend
>is with you in the ring, and the other is the timer/scorekeeper. Have a
>wrestling match to two out of three falls, or some similar contest, which
>the timekeeper will time with a stopwatch. Now, after you have rested,
>repeat the experiment with both contestants blindfolded. If the contest
>does not take measurably longer the second time, look out for Genocide
>agents, because at least one of you is an unregistered mutant.
Normally I avoid the 'real v. game' situations, but in this case I think
this example is not very valid. With highly skilled grapples I've seen a
number of matches where they closed their eyes while grappling, apparently
believing they can fight better by feel. In a stand up striking fight,
things are about even because while the attacker can't see exactly where to
punch, his opponant can't see to defend himself if the punch IS going to hit.
TokyoMark
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 20:42:30 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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>This does not address the real problem. Consider two 250-pt characters.
>Werewolf and Wolfwere both have a superpowered wolf form and a 75-point
>human form. Werewolf is in wolf form only under a full moon. Wolfwere is
>in wolf-form always *except* under a full moon.
>
>Werewolf:
>
>238 various werewolf powers
> 12 75-pt Multiform [15 active] not under a full moon(-1/4)
>---
>250 total
>
>Wolfwere:
>
>245 various werewolf powers]
> 5 75-pt Multiform [15 active] only under a full moon(-2)
>---
>250 total = 100 + 150 disads
>
>Note that Wolfwere is more powerful in super form and is able to be in
>super form more often.
I think it's the wrong construct to use; I'd go with a Shapeshift (one form,
only during the full moon), and a whole bunch of powers (only under the full
moon, -2). With that kind of limitation, Werewolf would have 400+ Active
Points of powers available during the full moon, but be a normal the rest of
the time. And it's easy to key Disadvantages to the same situation. For
example: Vuln: 2x STUN and BODY to Silver, Only During the Full Moon - It's
still Common, as he'll only face silver during the full moon, when he's a
werewolf, but when he is a werewolf, he _will_ face silver. Or Berserk
During the Full Moon, Accidental Change Under the Full Moon (activating the
Shapeshift), etc., etc.
>In some campaigns, this might work out all right,
>since a werewolf will have problems, but in a supers campaign, this will
>just work out to 15 points of Distinctive Features.
15??? Try 25. Werewolves would certainly be Not Concealable, Extreme
(werewolves are fairly well-known bugaboos, too, so you'll be facing that
Silver a lot more...), given the massive entertainment coverage given them
(not to mention all the legends over the years), none of them in any way
flattering...
>> You use the same base points - so a 250 pt character (100 base) has a 150
>> point Multi and a 50 point Multi. The first Multiform will have a maximum of
>> 50 points in disadvantages, the second won't need any at all (50<100).
>
>I am sorry if I was not clear. What happens as you add points to the
>multiform? It does not make sense to add disadvantages once play has
>begun, but if you don't, then you violate the fundamental rule that a
>character can always be rebuilt from scratch if you just know the totals.
Huh? Where is that 'fundamental rule'. Look, it's easy. Bob has a 200 point
multiform. He spends an XP to raise that to a 205 point multiform.
Effectively, the multiform GETS 5 XP. Not base points, not new disads, _XP_.
Of course, Bob can't do that unless he's got 246 total points (205+41),
counting his base points, disads, and XP.
>Multo (giving your example a name) gains 15 experience and decides to
>spend them on the two multiforms, increasing each by 50 points. To
>preserve the formalism of 100 base points, I suppose that we add the new
>points as "experience" on the character sheets for the multiforms. So
>
>Multo = 100 base + 150 disads + 15 experience = 265
>Mult1 = 100 base + 50 disads + 50 experience = 200
>Mult2 = 50 base + 0 disads + 50 experience = 100
Nothing wrong so far, AFAIK.
>Now, I decide to write up an NPC, FormX. FormX starts life with a 15
>points Hero Bonus (i.e. experience) , and has a 200 and a 100 point
>multiform. By your hypothesis, I have 100 base points and up to 150
>disads for each.
>
>FormX = 100 base + 150 disads + 15 Hero Bonus = 265
>Form1 = 100 base + 100 disads = 200
>Form2 = 100 base = 100
>
>Note that FormX has 50 more points of disadvantages in one of his forms
>than Multo. Under your rule, the pointing of a character can depend on
>how that character got its points and when, which is, IMHO, anathema.
No it isn't. Multo came by his XP honestly, earning them with the 'help' of
his multiforms. FormX didn't - his forms never had the chance to earn their
XPs, so they have to come up with points via disads.
That's my take on the rules. If I had my way, though, you'd just buy the
_base_ cost of any form, give it disads for more points (no reflection on
the main body), and split up the XPs earned among the forms based on how
often they're used.
>
>> Personally, I think that you should only be paying for the base points in
>> the form anyway...
>
>Disagree: that would make multiform the same price as a follower.
Maybe, but you don't get 2x Followers for +5 points, and I'd remove the
declining costs for additional multiforms (and duplicates).
>The campaign is an "emerging powers" campaign, where metahumans have only
>been appearing in substantial numbers in the past two years,
<snip scenario to conserve electrons :-)>
>I rolled an 18 for his attempt to move/avoid the 11" shell, so it
>detonated. Rolling the 12D6 RKA Explosion, I saw more ones than I ever
>hope to see again and he managed to survive with one BODY before death.
>Since the dice had spoken, I decided that he should miraculously survive
>until help arrives but with horrible disabling wounds.
Hey, what about the Bleeding rules?
>The Navy medivac
>got him to a nearby Level I trauma center. The party located him in
>intensive care, sneaked in via Invisibility and read his chart, asking
>for a description of the wounds and the treatment being given.
>
>I turned to the optional damage rules, and found no help there.
>Having only seconds to decide, I settled on first and second-degree burns
>over most of the body, third-degree burns to the face, two atomized ribs,
>shrapnel punctures of the right auricle, laceration of the superior vena
>cava, a ruptured spleen, perforations of the stomach and small intestine,
>a broken right arm and two missing fingers on the right hand.
So what's the problem? You want a damage chart that says "lose this much
BODY, this happens?"
>[Granted that the above list is probably an express ticket to the morgue
>in the real world, it has about the right feel, "How did he survive
>THAT?]
He's a superhero? This is like asking "how'd Chow Yun Fat survive all that
damage??". ;-)
>Tanith, by character hypothesis, has big-time healing, that is, a huge
>Aid and Regeneration Usable by Others. I have a campaign rule that Regen
>UbO must take the extra time(-1/2) limitation: 5 minutes per point and
>have ruled that the power does not prevent scarring, for plot reasons
>that I hope are obvious. Nonetheless, Tanith can cure someone from -15
>to +15 BODY in under five hours.
Handy <nod, nod>
>Curing him up in such a short time struck me as neither reasonable nor
>dramatically correct, and the players agreed. Again, I made a set of
>completely arbitrary rulings about how the healing would work that, while
>they moved the plot forward and drew no objection from the players, left
>*me* feeling unsatisfied and more at sea than I like.
>I am not asking for a full 3-D trauma simulation, but some guidelines to
>handling this sort of thing would be nice.
!!!! But...but...but...this sort of thing is _always_ GM improvisation,
unless you're playing something like Rolemaster (or Warhammer FRP). Very few
games have 'detailed' damage results - for good reason. It _sucks_ being
told that you just lost a leg, but survived to live another day (after
months of healing, natch). In most games, it just means "write up a new PC"
- especially if you're in the middle of a fast moving plot!
>For example, can missing
>fingers be replaced by regeneration, or does it require a transform?
Oy vey, that's an entire other thread - it really depends on the SFX of the
Regeneration, I guess.
>I
>am interested in anything that you have run into that might be helpful,
>before I simply codify my own rough-and-ready ideas.
Hmmm. I'd say, _don't_ codify it. If somebody takes enough BODY to suffer
dismemberment (which should be rare in 4-color comic action, unless you're a
faceless minion or something), work it out with the PC. If they want to take
on a new Disad (replacing an old one, usually) and add 'character' to the
character, fine. Otherwise, don't maim a PC, especially in 4-color comic
action. They have a remarkable tendancy to make complete recoveries from the
most grevious of injuries, if they recover at all.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:52:21 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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John and Ron Prins wrote:
>
> >My nominees for this topic are as follows.
> >
> >Dispel and Suppress: although these are classed as Standard Powers, they
> >share the advantage structure of Adjustment Powers. Do the "defenses
> >count double" rules apply to these powers?
>
> I'd say yes, as Dispel or Suppress vs. PD would be far, far too cheap and
> effective otherwise.
I absolutely agree. Personally, I would have classed these two powers
under Adjustment Powers with unique mechanics, rather than Standard
Powers with the same mechanics as Adjustment Powers. But then, I would
have classed Density Increase as a Size power.
>
> >Blindness and Darkness: ... [1/2 DCV and OCV HTH] . . .
> >produced the absurdity that approximately equal opponents in HTH combat
> >are unaffected by being plunged into darkness.
>
> I don't see how that's absurd. I suppose it's fair to argue that two people
> in the dark shouldn't be hitting one another very often anyways, but people
> in HTH in the dark should know at least where their opponant relatively is
> (a hex isn't that big), and the defender can't guage how to block and dodge
> as well <shrug>.
Try the following experiment with two friends. Rope off a ring ten feet
by ten feet. This represents roughly two adjacent hexes, with a small
allowance for the fact that hex boundaries are not roped off. One friend
is with you in the ring, and the other is the timer/scorekeeper. Have a
wrestling match to two out of three falls, or some similar contest, which
the timekeeper will time with a stopwatch. Now, after you have rested,
repeat the experiment with both contestants blindfolded. If the contest
does not take measurably longer the second time, look out for Genocide
agents, because at least one of you is an unregistered mutant.
>
> >Multiform and Duplication: The rules make many things massively unclear.
> >How does one set up a Multiform so that the stronger form is represented
> >by power "on" and the weaker by power "off".
>
> You tack an Accidental Change on the bigger form (i.e. "Change if Multiform
> is Dispelled or Suppressed, 14-").
This does not address the real problem. Consider two 250-pt characters.
Werewolf and Wolfwere both have a superpowered wolf form and a 75-point
human form. Werewolf is in wolf form only under a full moon. Wolfwere is
in wolf-form always *except* under a full moon.
Werewolf:
238 various werewolf powers
12 75-pt Multiform [15 active] not under a full moon(-1/4)
---
250 total
Wolfwere:
245 various werewolf powers]
5 75-pt Multiform [15 active] only under a full moon(-2)
---
250 total = 100 + 150 disads
Note that Wolfwere is more powerful in super form and is able to be in
super form more often. In some campaigns, this might work out all right,
since a werewolf will have problems, but in a supers campaign, this will
just work out to 15 points of Distinctive Features.
>
> >The distinction affects the
> >treatment of limitations, adjustment powers, Dispel and Suppress.
> >Moreover, if a 250-point character (150 pts of disads) builds a 200-point
> >multiform, is the multiform built with 100 or 150 points of disads?
> >Similar considerations apply to Duplication.
>
> You use the same base points - so a 250 pt character (100 base) has a 150
> point Multi and a 50 point Multi. The first Multiform will have a maximum of
> 50 points in disadvantages, the second won't need any at all (50<100).
I am sorry if I was not clear. What happens as you add points to the
multiform? It does not make sense to add disadvantages once play has
begun, but if you don't, then you violate the fundamental rule that a
character can always be rebuilt from scratch if you just know the totals.
Of course, this rule went out the window with Fuzion, but that is one of
the many things I don't like about Fusion.
Multo (giving your example a name) gains 15 experience and decides to
spend them on the two multiforms, increasing each by 50 points. To
preserve the formalism of 100 base points, I suppose that we add the new
points as "experience" on the character sheets for the multiforms. So
Multo = 100 base + 150 disads + 15 experience = 265
Mult1 = 100 base + 50 disads + 50 experience = 200
Mult2 = 50 base + 0 disads + 50 experience = 100
Now, I decide to write up an NPC, FormX. FormX starts life with a 15
points Hero Bonus (i.e. experience) , and has a 200 and a 100 point
multiform. By your hypothesis, I have 100 base points and up to 150
disads for each.
FormX = 100 base + 150 disads + 15 Hero Bonus = 265
Form1 = 100 base + 100 disads = 200
Form2 = 100 base = 100
Note that FormX has 50 more points of disadvantages in one of his forms
than Multo. Under your rule, the pointing of a character can depend on
how that character got its points and when, which is, IMHO, anathema.
> Personally, I think that you should only be paying for the base points in
> the form anyway...
Disagree: that would make multiform the same price as a follower.
>
> >There are times that the dramatics of a situation call for disabling
> . . .
> Err...don't let the PCs have these powers? :-) Or you could apply the 'Comic
> Book Convention' that attacks likely to do BODY damage only hit:
> . . . [list of eligible targets omitted]
Leaving aside my personal dislike for such a high frequency of
plot-oriented fudge, it is not a solution to the problem that I posed.
> . . .
> give the person a -1 penalty to EVERYTHING they do per lost point of BODY.
Actually, the Optional Effects of Damage (p. 162ff) include something
very similar, but this is not what I was after. Obviously I made myself
unclear. Perhaps an example would be better.
The campaign is an "emerging powers" campaign, where metahumans have only
been appearing in substantial numbers in the past two years, and are
still regarded by the mainstream press in the same category as Elvis
sightings. Accordingly, there is no legal background for testimony such
as, "I used my neutrino vision to look under the ground and found X."
The PCs fought and defeated Snow Wolf (an NPC Leni Lenape Shaman) who is
somehow involved in forcing John Doe (an NCC multiform) into his other
form: the Jersey Devil. On interrogating Snow Wolf, he claimed to have
wanted help in proving his claim that a certain naval base stands on
sacred ground. Access to the base is forbidden, because the grounds are
loaded with stray unspent munitions dating back to the Civil War, and the
relevant Indian Claims Act requires on-site archaeological finds before a
claim can be filed.
Tanith (a Wiccan Priestess) and Thunderbolt (a nuclear flying brick)
overflew the base at night, using special senses to locate likely areas
for surreptitious exploration. They landed on an area with a powerful
aura, only to set off a land mine. Fortunately, both were running force
fields and are relatively unharmed. They evaded detection by the Navy,
and explored a second area, only to find that a large metal cylinder with
a dense conical projection at one end was lying just under the surface.
Contacting a party member with KS/Ordnance by mindlink, they determined
that it is probably an 8" or 11" HE shell from a naval rifle: around
12D6KX, probably penetrating. They discretely returned to base.
They reported the finding to Snow Wolf, who has 20 pts of overconfidence.
He failed an EGO roll and decided to explore the area on his own in
animal form. [GM's note, at this point, I was improvising, because it
never occurred to me that they would just give Snow Wolf full
information.]
I rolled an 18 for his attempt to move/avoid the 11" shell, so it
detonated. Rolling the 12D6 RKA Explosion, I saw more ones than I ever
hope to see again and he managed to survive with one BODY before death.
Since the dice had spoken, I decided that he should miraculously survive
until help arrives but with horrible disabling wounds. The Navy medivac
got him to a nearby Level I trauma center. The party located him in
intensive care, sneaked in via Invisibility and read his chart, asking
for a description of the wounds and the treatment being given.
I turned to the optional damage rules, and found no help there.
Having only seconds to decide, I settled on first and second-degree burns
over most of the body, third-degree burns to the face, two atomized ribs,
shrapnel punctures of the right auricle, laceration of the superior vena
cava, a ruptured spleen, perforations of the stomach and small intestine,
a broken right arm and two missing fingers on the right hand.
[Granted that the above list is probably an express ticket to the morgue
in the real world, it has about the right feel, "How did he survive
THAT?]
Tanith, by character hypothesis, has big-time healing, that is, a huge
Aid and Regeneration Usable by Others. I have a campaign rule that Regen
UbO must take the extra time(-1/2) limitation: 5 minutes per point and
have ruled that the power does not prevent scarring, for plot reasons
that I hope are obvious. Nonetheless, Tanith can cure someone from -15
to +15 BODY in under five hours.
Curing him up in such a short time struck me as neither reasonable nor
dramatically correct, and the players agreed. Again, I made a set of
completely arbitrary rulings about how the healing would work that, while
they moved the plot forward and drew no objection from the players, left
*me* feeling unsatisfied and more at sea than I like.
I am not asking for a full 3-D trauma simulation, but some guidelines to
handling this sort of thing would be nice. For example, can missing
fingers be replaced by regeneration, or does it require a transform? I
am interested in anything that you have run into that might be helpful,
before I simply codify my own rough-and-ready ideas.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:26:36 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: The Tragic Tale of Norse God of Thunder and The Mad Bomber
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Trevor Barrie wrote:
>
>
> Not to start this debate again, but I'd say in most cases Thor's hammer is
> written up as Only in Hero ID, since he's used in the BBB as an example
> for OIHID. OTOH, the power described above is definitely just a straight
> OAF EB.
Well, now that you have opened this can of worms . . .
If a weapon is, by its defined magical properties, very hard, but not
impossible, to grab and take away, then would it not be appropriate to
point it up as an OIF? For that matter, should there be something called
an Obvious Semi-Accessible Focus: OSF(-3/4)?
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:28:38 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
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Mark Lemming wrote:
>
> Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> > Now, to bring this back to Champions -- anyone besides me been
> > tempted to run a session or two with Bill Gates as the big villian?
>
> A friend has him as a recurring villian. He's actually an ancient
> dragon that has assumed a human form and is slowly taking over the
> world. Except for the dragon part he's just like this world's
> version...
I don't follow the word "except". ;-)
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:47:27 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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>>Disagree: that would make multiform the same price as a follower.
>
>Maybe, but you don't get 2x Followers for +5 points, and I'd remove the
>declining costs for additional multiforms (and duplicates).
Whoops, make that "you don't get 2x Multiforms for +5 points like you do
Followers". Someday, I'll learn to self-edit properly...:-)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 19:22:00 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
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Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> RAW> Dispel and Suppress: although these are classed as Standard Powers,
> RAW> they share the advantage structure of Adjustment Powers...
>
> Not really. * * *
I meant the +1/4 for any power of a special effect or tight group and +2
for all powers simultaneously of the special effect or tight group.
Clearly the duration advantages are irrelevant.
>
> RAW> Do the "defenses count double" rules apply to these powers?
>
> No, they do not. This is why they are categorized as Standard Powers
> rather than Adjustment Powers.
If this is true, then one should always use Suppress vs defenses, since
it is four times as effective per base point. The following example
assumes a strict GM who will not allow Suppress or Telepathy to be both
maintained and used to attack again without Uncontrolled(+1/2).
50 4D6 Drain vs any PD: inate, Armor, FF, Force Wall(+1/4)
vs
27 2D6 Suppress vs any PD(+1/4) 0 END Pers(+1) Uncontrolled(+1/2)
The Drain and Suppress each eliminate 7 active points of PD, but the
Drain will fade 5/turn, while the Suppress will not fade until the
opponent flees or finds the way to turn it off. In practice, most
methods of turning a power off require leaving the battle at least
temporarily. In addition, Suppress is not directly counteracted by an
Aid as is a Drain. If we want to increase the active points to be equal,
we can produce the following horror:
50 2D6 Suppress as above(+1 3/4) 2xAP(+1) No Range Penalty(+1/2)
Autofire(+1 1/2) Increased Range(+1/4)
Or increase the maximum range to practical infinity, or...
>
> RAW> Blindness and Darkness: . . .
> . . . Equal opponents given
> equal handicaps will remain equally matched. The only difference between
> reality and Hero is that a Hero fight will be somewhat shorter.
And other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
The duration of a combat is irrelevant if and only if
- There is no external time pressure (i.e. a bomb ticking away), AND
- There are no other characters in play, AND
- Neither character is END limited.
Otherwise, the duration of a combat is most relevant.
>
> RAW> Multiform and Duplication: The rules make many things massively
> RAW> unclear. How does one set up a Multiform so that the stronger form is
> RAW> represented by power "on" and the weaker by power "off".
>
> You build it "backwards" and let the special effects handle the rest.
I have had numerous experienced GMs tell me that I am treading on
dangerous ground by doing this. See my reply to John & Ron for
counterexamples.
>
> RAW> There are times that the dramatics of a situation call for disabling
> RAW> wounds, rather than death.
>
> Hero has them... unfortunately they can bog things down severely.
>
Again, see my reply to John & Ron for a more lucid explanation of what I
was looking for.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:22:26 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
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At 09:00 AM 10/13/97 +0000, you wrote:
>> hows about actual contributions? even if not fer yer own campaign,
>> but just fer fun? ne1 else one the list interested in
>> a cooperative 'generic' superheroic timeline? just for the hell of it? *eg*
>
>Actually Rook has a time line set-up on his Web page that allows
>submissions, but I think an alternate champions time line would be an
>interesting, and fun project. I think we should limit ourselves to
>the characters presented in the various champioins products.
>
actually i was thinking of going a bit further back that that. . .
to include lots of other races and stuff. . .but nething 'd be fun. .
>
>Depends if you're of european background, and Spanish background I'd
>immagine. Although, as the feathered serpents are not human it might
>be very important for any human reguardless of background. I must say
>that your time travelling time line flow chart is very entertaining,
>and particularly useful for a time travelling campaign.
>
it was developed with time travel in mind, but setting
things up graphically tends to give me heaps of ideas, especially
if interacting with a map. Despite it not being a pure source of data,
a timeline you set up can act as a useful 'prop' for the gm's creativity. .
. .but exploiting various trends and 'blind spots' you want to fill in,
you can come up with new scenarios for 'global' type games
(i.e. "hmm, i wonder where race X dissapeared to. .. AHA!")
>> structurally, i'd say do a flow-diagram, even though it's not really
>> 'historially correct'. AND tie it into a map or two. . .
>>
>
>A map or two, to what purpose?
>
well, a map gives you a real feel for history and the way people move, ect.
By combining your 'flows' with some shaded areas (a big black and white map
is best, blow up on a good photocopyer) you can determine how various real world
cultures can interact with the more fantastic elements. . . . .i believe in a
timeline which doesn't ignore supers. .. let's say supers turn up in the time
just before the american civil war, when several brave confederates went into
south america to 'recruit' a few more states. . .welll, what if one of them
was a paranormal, who ended up founding a small dynasty? with a map as your
aid you can find easy implications- would said dynasty be involved in the
drug trade? would it be considered a millitary threat? you can make some rough
estimates and be more constructive and 'accurate'.
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 19:45:40 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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TokyoMark wrote:
>
>
> Normally I avoid the 'real v. game' situations, but in this case I think
I understand the reluctance, but I know from experience that players
who purchase Darkness or Area Effect Flash *expect* that this power can
be used to turn a combat into blind man's bluff. I think that the
expectation is reasonable based on real-world intuition, and I don't
think it fair nor necessary for the game system to thwart this
expectation. In fact, I am suspicious that this was *not* the intended
result of the rules as written, but that is only a suspicion.
> this example is not very valid. With highly skilled grapples I've seen a
> number of matches where they closed their eyes while grappling, apparently
> believing they can fight better by feel.
I always thought that this was done only once grappling holds were
established, and primarily to protect the eyes from harm.
> In a stand up striking fight,
If John and Ron want to try this with padded weapons, or boxing gloves,
that is their privilege. I was concerned about safety.
> things are about even because while the attacker can't see exactly where to
> punch, his opponant can't see to defend himself if the punch IS going to hit.
Yes, but fewer blows are going to land, and there is going to be more
recovery time between blows. I tried something similar many moons ago,
using cardboard tubes as weapons, and the results were quite comical as
the two opponents tried to find one another. The match was done in
the basement of Whig Hall, and ended when one attacked a bust of Woodrow
Wilson, and the other, targeting the noise, also attacked the same
statue.
> TokyoMark
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:30:12 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
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Reply-To: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: No-Win Scenarios [Re: GMing Question #1]
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On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Robert A. West wrote:
> (4) John & Ron & everyone who minimized the moral dilemma of the last 800
> survivors of an alien race vs the thousands of humans who would die if
> they landed, I say, "Shame! Shame!" Are any of you really that
> stone-hearted that you cannot feel the tragedy? BTW, the word "genocide"
> is precisely appropriate. If the aliens really have no other option, and
> are not a super-altruistic race, they will attempt to land and you will
> have to blow them up to prevent it. It may be the first case
> of justifiable genocide since Cro Magnon exterminated Neanderthal,
How was this justifiable? I'm not suggesting we punish the descendants of
the perpretrators or anything, but I'm curious what your reasoning is.
X-Sender: wbandsis@mail.westco.net
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:38:12 -0400
From: Charles Badger <wbandsis@westco.net>
Subject: URL Question
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A while back, or at least I htink it was on this list, someone mentioned
seeing a website that had the MArvel Universe or possibly a versipon a New
York that was available on the web in a map form similar to the Mega Tokyo
available on the web at one of the Bubblegum crisis sites.
Does anyone know where this is? I've been lookin for it but my bookmark file
was recently trashed and the backup didn't have it.
Thanks
-----
C. Badger
My Feet hurt and I've forgotten how to dance.
Lando
Babylon 5
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:54:10 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
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Subject: Re: Tragic Tale of a Teenage Dinosaur-Man
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On Sat, 11 Oct 1997, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> I'm new at this Champions thing, so bear with me...
> I'm planning on running a Scenario with a few of my friends. One
> of the characters is an ancient Dinosaur-Man awakened from his
> millenium slumber. He's very big, and weighs alot (15 points of
> Growth and Density Increase [one level each], 0 END, Persistent,
> Always on).
> It dosen't make much sense that a character using Drain could
> make him shrink
Well, if you're careful about what Drains you allow, it's a non-issue. As
a general rule, Drain vs a specific Power (rather than a specific special
effect) never, ever make sense, so should never, ever be allowed. As long
as you don't allow "Drain Growth", he only needs to worry about something
along the lines of "Drain innate physical properties"... and if you allow
a character to have that, I daresay he or she should be able to effect
Dino-Man.
> What about actual character creation? Racial Package Deal or
> Elemental Control: Dino-Man Anatomy?
No.
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:54:54 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
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Subject: Re: Poll for OS
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On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, Mann, Wade wrote:
> I am currently developing some software that might be released through
> Hero Games. I am trying to figure out the platforms that I should
> support.
>
> How many of you are using win 3.x, win95/nt, and/or Mac?
Not me. (Okay, I do have Windows 4.0 on my hard drive, but it's a nuisance
to have to use it.)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:04:12 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
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Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote:
> p. 122, =Normal Characteristic Maxima=
> "Powers that raise Characteristics (Growth, Density Increase)
> affect Characteristics normally, and are not counted against
> the Characteristic Maxima".
[...]
> You can either take the parenthetical phrase -- "(Growth, Density Increase)"
> -- as an example or an itemization.
Or as a clarification of the _sort_ of thing they meant (Powers which,
when activated, have the effect of raising the character's stats.
Characteristics bought _as_ a Power don't match that description.)
> As a mere example, this has the following ramifications:
> 1) CHAR supplied by Absorption, Aid, or Transfer are not affected
> by CHAR Maxima -- don't halve their effect past 20.
> 2) PD & ED from Armor don't count against the Maxima of 8 each.
> 3) CHAR bought with an Advantage or Limitation, thereby becoming
> a "Standard Power", do not count against the Maxima for the
> corresponding CHAR.
You don't _need_ to apply an Advantage or Limitation to your CHAR to buy
it as a Power. In other words, if you take this view, then _none_ of your
stats count against the maxima if you don't want them to - which begs the
question, why is NCM a Disadvantage?
At any rate, I have difficulty seeing how STR, even STR bought as a Power,
could ever be seen as a "Power that raises Characteristics". STR moves
objects, inflicts damage... raising Characteristics isn't part of the
description as far as I can tell.
> I agree, the last seems strange -- buy your STR 0 END, and it can be as high
> as you want it? But the write-up for Defender definitely follows this
> course, paying only standard costs for his OIF Characteristics.
Defender would hardly be the only officially-published character to have
mistakes in his character sheet, though.
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:18:06 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Robert A. West wrote:
> ==================================================================
> Desolid vs NNDs:
>
> A desolid character is immune to all attacks, including NNDs, except for
> the listed special effect and for attacks with Affects Desolid. The
> rules are clear on this.
Odd; my copy of the rules doesn't even mention the idea of a "listed
special effect" (singular) to which the character is vulnerable. What it
does say is that there has to be a reasonably common _group_ of attacks
which will affect the character. (Emphasis mine, of course.) However, my
opinion is that it's silly to think that the player will be able to think
of and ennumerate _every_ attack which should logically affect the
character at creation time, and the same applies to deciding what defenses
will stop an NND. Consequently, NND vs Desolid can only be decided on a
case-by-case basis.
> (2) Environmental conditions can be modeled as attacks with the
> limitation, not vs Life Support. They can also be modeled as everyman
> susceptabilities. Personally, I prefer the latter, but either way, it
> seems straightforward that Desolid would protect one from the effect,
It seems straightforward to me that, in the latter case, Desolid would
_not_ protect from the effect. I certainly wouldn't allow Desolid to
protect a character from a Susceptibility for which they gained points, so
why should it protect from an "everyman" Susc?
> LS vs ED.
Agree with your analysis here. ED and LS: Extreme Temperature protect
against different things.
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:19:35 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
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Subject: Re: Reduced END Question
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On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Robert A. West wrote:
> (1) What END do you charge for dodge, block, etc?
1. Err, when I remember that rule.:) It's the official rule, and it's
always seemed reasonable enough.
> (2) Do you in any way factor in STR for blocks? It seems a reasonable
> interpretation that Casual STR could allow one to ignore a block as well,
> but it is equally reasonable to argue that deflecting or sidestepping the
> blow is a valid SFX for block, and that this requires very little STR.
Thought about it, but for now I just play Blocks by the book.
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:43:03 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Nonstandard Deviations
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At 02:57 PM 10/10/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> I was, and I'm always bothered when a published character (or other
>"entity") deviates appreciably from the standard rules. An occasional
>variance for an unusual situation is one thing, but this (along with
>providing a "free point" for characters' primary Professional Skills in
>Champions of the North by applying the Everyman Skill point toward it) only
>confuses matters.
If you read the section on Everyman skills, they seem to fall into two
groups: "shadow" skills that represent 'default use' skills (like Deduction
or Climbing), and 'freebie' abilities (the AK, PS, and Language) which seem
to be "real" points in the same sense as the 10s-in=all-CHAR. Therefore,
it's possible this wasn't a deviation, but another of those hidden
feature-not-a-bug bits in the HERO rules.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:43:05 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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At 03:14 PM 10/11/97 +0000, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>I think it would be a good thing to identify some of the "grey
>areas", areas where the vagueness of the official rules has an impact
>upon the way someone runs his campaign. This is not an attempt to
>reawaken old flamefests, however; I just want to understand where
>these areas are.
>
>The ones I can think of right now are:
>--Linked (No debates, please!)
>--Characteristics bought as Powers (with regard to Normal
>Characteristic Maxima)
To begin with, I think the "no debate" should be extended to the entire
thread, and then double underlined. :] Then, off the top of my head:
Everyman Skills (are they all treated identically, or are
PS/AK/Language different?)
Use of multiple powers at once (a little different from the
Linked debate -- essentially, how many NON-linked powers can
you use in a single attack?)
The *extent* to which SFX can affect a power.
Whether Knockback is based off "BODY rolled on the dice" or
"BODY actually subtracted from the character's score".
Which advantages are figured into DC.
--
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Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:43:08 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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At 01:04 AM 10/14/97 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>You don't _need_ to apply an Advantage or Limitation to your CHAR to buy
>it as a Power. In other words, if you take this view, then _none_ of your
>stats count against the maxima if you don't want them to - which begs the
>question, why is NCM a Disadvantage?
p. 60: "Characteristics can be purchased with Power Limitations, Power
Advantages, and Power Frameworks, just like Powers. For these purposes, a
Characteristic should be treated as a Standard Power."
Whether or not you feel "Characteristics bought as Powers" are affected by
NCM, I think the BBB is rather clear that Characteristics are ONLY
considered Powers when Power Modifiers are applied to them.
And I'd point out again, NCM isn't much of a Disadvantage anyways. :/
>At any rate, I have difficulty seeing how STR, even STR bought as a Power,
>could ever be seen as a "Power that raises Characteristics". STR moves
>objects, inflicts damage... raising Characteristics isn't part of the
>description as far as I can tell.
Because it is a Power, and if you buy it your appropriate (native)
Characteristic is effectively raised while it is activated?
==
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X-Sender: shelley@mail.mactyre.net
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:43:38 -0700
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: ICQ
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 06:02 AM 10/13/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>(ICQ is an internet independent chat programthat works in it's own
>>windows..worth checking out!)
>
> Where can one get this?
www.icq.com or www.mirabilis.com -- it's a nifty program, and I've been
using it since Jim Dickinson sent it to me ages ago (thanks, Jim!). ;-)
It's reliable -- I think just about everyone I know is on it, including my
younger brother (who uses it to nag me to get him things.) I think Jim
has a point, though -- Powwow is much more versatile (and the newer version
has an interface awfully close to ICQ's). Plus Powwow has a whiteboard
which allows you to draw something and allow everyone to see it -- very
helpful if you were running a game. It also allows for voice
communication, which could be really interesting.
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
www.mactyre.net
Your children will see the stars.
--Robert A. Heinlein
Comments: Authenticated sender is <korthmat@pilot.msu.edu>
From: "Matt Korth" <korthmat@cps.msu.edu>
Organization: I don't think so, Tim.
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:52:23 -0400
Subject: Bill Gates as Champions Villain (was Re: Poll for OS)
Priority: normal
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> Now, to bring this back to Champions -- anyone besides me been
> tempted to run a session or two with Bill Gates as the big villian? Next
> time I'm in the mood for humor I'm gonna do something of the sort. Or
> maybe Foxbat kidnaps him for some reason . . . hmmm. Nope, won't work,
> the players wouldn't want to rescue him.
Well, I *do* have a JPEG picture called "billborg", and a writeup posted
on the list a long time ago of a typical Borg...
"I am Bill, of Microsoft. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
Your OS will adapt to service mine..."
--M, who notes that there's no way Bill of Microsoft would ever willingly
use the term "we" or "ours", unlike a typical Borg...
--
korthmat@cps.msu.edu http://www.cps.msu.edu/~korthmat
*** People who send me UCE/UBE will be crucified. ***
"Katy, you're a freshman. Find 2,000 people."
--Droz, _PCU_
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Bill Gates as Champions Villain (was Re: Poll for OS)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:01:13 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: VTSFFC
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>
> "I am Bill, of Microsoft. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
> Your OS will adapt to service mine..."
>
And a slightly older joke.....
"We are Pentium of Borg. Division is futile. You will be
approximated." Also spoken, of course, by 7.00938 of 8.9999947682.
Daniel Pawtowski
X-Sender: shelley@mail.mactyre.net
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 22:01:37 -0700
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
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Just out of curiosity, am I the only person on the list who finds anything
but the most vague of timelines to be restrictive when planning and running
a game? When I was planning my Hudson Hawks campaign, I discussed with the
players major events, but both they and I found it much easier to make
things up as we went along. When, for example, the heroine Firehawk showed
up in the game (and she would become a primary NPC), it was just a matter
of telling them her public record and moving on from there. Ditto on
villains. I didn't feel locked into a rigid view of the universe (back
then), and one of the main reasons why I strongly considered *not* using
the Golden Hawks Universe (though I acquiesced to player opinion) when
planning my current FTF game was because I have the ponderous weight of
four campaigns that I feel I have to be consistent with when I run. Now, I
can't use X team because the Hawks beat 'em up or have Armstrong show up
because of that wacky "Armstrong Debacle" plot from way back when.
Now, I have over 400 pages of *stuff* and I think site lurkers are probably
more familiar with it than I am these days. I don't think most players
care about timelines -- mine certainly don't, and I do have a high opinion
of their ability -- and I wonder why GMs feel it's necessary. I mean, I
guess I go into a game with a clear view of what I want to accomplish and
what the world feels like, and I know enough about history to be internally
consistent. I just see it as a waste of a GM's time -- I'd rather see the
GM put work into the plots and the villains than a detailed history.
History (and I say this as a person getting her BA in history in December)
is all well and good, but really, the emphasis on the game should be, IMHO,
on the present and not the past. Timelines force things -- let the players
dictate the history and shape of the universe.
Anyway, there's been a ton of discussion about this recently, both here and
on #herochat, and I must say, Matthew and I have been shaking our heads
over it. =)
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
www.mactyre.net
Your children will see the stars.
--Robert A. Heinlein
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:09:24 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: THe Tragic Tale of Holy Ground
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Vampire Killer B and Doktor Von Helmsley are both vampire hunters.
Vampire Killer B has a holy sword. Doktor Von Helmsley has the power of
faith.
Now, how would you work the Sf/x of a holy item, like B's sword?
What about blessing an object, or an area, as 'sacred ground,' or holding
a vampire at bay with a cross, or actually burning the blood sucker
with holy water?
I have my own take on everything _but_ the sacred ground (Change
Enviornment?). I read something about holy ground under Independant...
What if you wanted to 'bless' weapons?
Tell me what you think.
Hungry for the answers,
Jason Sullivan
X-Sender: nezmaster@mail.ntr.net
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 02:13:15 -0400
From: The Nez Master <nezmaster@ntr.net>
Subject: Re: ICQ, Powwow, and game times
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At 09:43 PM 10/13/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 06:02 AM 10/13/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>>(ICQ is an internet independent chat programthat works in it's own
>>>windows..worth checking out!)
>>
>> Where can one get this?
>
>www.icq.com or www.mirabilis.com -- it's a nifty program, and I've been
>using it since Jim Dickinson sent it to me ages ago (thanks, Jim!). ;-)
>It's reliable -- I think just about everyone I know is on it, including my
>younger brother (who uses it to nag me to get him things.) I think Jim
>has a point, though -- Powwow is much more versatile (and the newer version
>has an interface awfully close to ICQ's). Plus Powwow has a whiteboard
>which allows you to draw something and allow everyone to see it -- very
>helpful if you were running a game. It also allows for voice
>communication, which could be really interesting.
>
Two things.
1> in refrence to this post, where does one get powow?
2> My time listing of 12-3 (am or pm depending on player preference) was
EST, sorry for the oversight, i MEANT to post it before.
>Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
>www.mactyre.net
>
>Your children will see the stars.
>--Robert A. Heinlein
>
>
-------------------------Nez Master--------------------
Second founder of the backwards philosophy
http://www.ntr.net/~nezmaster
Nothing is certain
_______________________________________________________
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:28:15 -0700
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-----Original Message-----
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Monday, October 13, 1997 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
>On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>> I agree, the last seems strange -- buy your STR 0 END, and it can
be as high
>> as you want it? But the write-up for Defender definitely follows
this
>> course, paying only standard costs for his OIF Characteristics.
>
>Defender would hardly be the only officially-published character to
have
>mistakes in his character sheet, though.
>
While I don't remember where (I rarely buy supplements, and thus don't
have an example available), I have seen other published characters
with the same "mistake".
Actually, I thought I had seen this explained once in an official
ruling. Something to the effect that NCM did not apply to
Characteristics bought with Limitations, or inside a Framework. If I
recall right, Advantages weren't considered sufficient to avoid NCM.
I don't necessarily agree with this rule, but I have long considered
this to be a strange but official rule. I wouldn't bet money on it,
though. (That's my touchstone. If I remember a fact, and I'm willing
to bet money on it, _don't accept_. I've never lost money that way. (I
once lost 5 character points that way, though.:))
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Bill Gates as Champions Villain (was Re: Poll for OS)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:14:10 -0700
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On Monday, October 13, 1997 10:28 PM, Matt Korth wrote:
>Well, I *do* have a JPEG picture called "billborg", and a writeup
posted
>on the list a long time ago of a typical Borg...
>"I am Bill, of Microsoft. Resistance is futile. You will be
assimilated.
>Your OS will adapt to service mine..."
A friend of mine who works for Microsoft started a contest about a
year ago. He had just gotten a new Timex Datalink watch, and would
give the old one to whomever wrote the best story to "We are Microsoft
of the Borg. Resistance is Futile. You will be assimilated."
The winner was a guy who wrote that, after Bill Gates lost the U.S.
Presidential election, Microsoft went into space using FTL 1.0.
According to him, Borg stands for "Bill Owns the Rest of the Galaxy."
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:16:09 -0700
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On Monday, October 13, 1997 10:26 PM, Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote:
>Just out of curiosity, am I the only person on the list who finds
anything
>but the most vague of timelines to be restrictive when planning and
running
>a game?
No. My timeline is rather vague for exactly the same reasons. I
already have things to add, though, without the players even asking.
As I assume I will always be adding things, I kept it rather vague.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: ICQ
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:36:21 -0700
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On Monday, October 13, 1997 10:19 PM, Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote:
>I think Jim
>has a point, though -- Powwow is much more versatile (and the newer
version
>has an interface awfully close to ICQ's). Plus Powwow has a
whiteboard
>which allows you to draw something and allow everyone to see it --
very
>helpful if you were running a game. It also allows for voice
>communication, which could be really interesting.
Most of this stuff is also available free from Microsoft as
NetMeeting, I believe. Part of the IE 4.0 download, and also, I
believe, available separately.
Filksinger
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 02:11:49 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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John and Ron Prins wrote:
>
> >This does not address the real problem. Consider two 250-pt characters.
[Werewolf vs Wolfwere example deleted]
>
> I think it's the wrong construct to use; I'd go with a Shapeshift (one form,
[remainder of discussion deleted]
Oh, bother! I suppose that you are trying to be helpful, but I am
interested in discussing a troubling aspect of multiform, not finding a
work-around for a particular character. There are lots of reasons you
might *want* a multiform. Suppose that the Wolf form has lower INT than
the human and lacks most skills? Suppose they are two different
personalities altogether. What about the fact that the two forms should
have totally different disadvantages?
> >
> >. . . fundamental rule that a
> >character can always be rebuilt from scratch if you just know the totals.
>
> Huh? Where is that 'fundamental rule'.
This is, of course, strictly speaking, a meta-rule. In game-theoretic
terms, a Champions character sheet contains no memory of prior states.
Without bugging a friend for his ancient correspondence with the
designers on this point, I cannot cite an explicit source; however, I
find this meta-rule implicit in the treatment of radiation accidents, and
in the sections of Dark Champions that discuss redesigning characters for
street-level campaigns.
If the "no state memory" rule is not true, then there must be characters
that are achievable by a radiation accident that are not achievable
without one, or vice-versa, or both. Moreover, if a GM is designing an
NPC, if there *is* state memory, he must know how much of the "bonus"
represents experience, how much represents an allowance for the fact that
the GM does not have time to point-compress NPCs, and how much represents
an origin under different rules.
Moreover, some disadvantages (primarily Hunted and Reputation) often
represent prior experience anyway. The reason that a Reputation or a
Hunted acquired during play is not worth points is that the character got
XP in the process of acquiring the reputation or pissing off the hunted.
> . . . [example]
> >Multo = 100 base + 150 disads + 15 experience = 265
> >Mult1 = 100 base + 50 disads + 50 experience = 200
> >Mult2 = 50 base + 0 disads + 50 experience = 100[vs]
> >FormX = 100 base + 150 disads + 15 Hero Bonus = 265
> >Form1 = 100 base + 100 disads = 200
> >Form2 = 100 base = 100
> >
> >Note that FormX has 50 more points of disadvantages in one of his forms
> >than Multo. Under your rule, the pointing of a character can depend on
> >how that character got its points and when, which is, IMHO, anathema.
>
> No it isn't. Multo came by his XP honestly, earning them with the 'help' of
> his multiforms. FormX didn't - his forms never had the chance to earn their
> XPs, so they have to come up with points via disads.
OK. Suppose instead of writing "Hero Bonus", I write "XP," and give
FormX a backstory to explain how he got his experience. Should this
change things? Is Multo required to spend his XP based on which form he
spent most of an expedition as? Not in my campaign.
It would be a different matter if forms and followers earned XP directly,
as do hirelings in many other games. That is not how Hero works.
>
> <snip scenario to conserve electrons :-)>
>
> >Since the dice had spoken, I decided that he should miraculously survive
> >until help arrives but with horrible disabling wounds.
>
> Hey, what about the Bleeding rules?
This is part of the area that I am talking about. Under strict Hero
rules, death is a very mechanical thing that occurs on a strict schedule.
Since the explosion occured, by definition, on segment 12, Snow Wolf
(Wine Te:me, pronounced Win-ay Tam-ay, more or less) should have bled
to death post-12, before help could arrive. This felt dramatically
wrong, especially since the new player for the evening had already
decided that his secret ID worked in a hospital, and the appearance of a
mysterious patient, guarded by ONI, sounded like an excellent lead-in.
The problem was that, once I made the dramatically appropriate decision,
there was really no convenient way to quantify what I had decided upon.
Under the basic rules, a person with 20 BODY who is reduced to 0 BODY
will bleed to death in four minutes, which is really a very short time
for help to arrive if your world does not involve teleporters. While
this is appropriate for running battles quickly, there are times, such as
this, when I prefer another option.
> [description of wounds omitted]
>
> So what's the problem? You want a damage chart that says "lose this much
> BODY, this happens?"
Sigh! No, of course not, but it would be nice to have some basis for
quantifying the sort of think that I was doing.
> >Curing him up in such a short time struck me as neither reasonable nor
> >dramatically correct, and the players agreed. Again, I made a set of
> >completely arbitrary rulings about how the healing would work that, while
> >they moved the plot forward and drew no objection from the players, left
> >*me* feeling unsatisfied and more at sea than I like.
> >I am not asking for a full 3-D trauma simulation, but some guidelines to
> >handling this sort of thing would be nice.
>
> !!!! But...but...but...this sort of thing is _always_ GM improvisation,
> unless you're playing something like Rolemaster (or Warhammer FRP). Very few
> games have 'detailed' damage results - for good reason. It _sucks_ being
> told that you just lost a leg, but survived to live another day (after
> months of healing, natch). In most games, it just means "write up a new PC"
> - especially if you're in the middle of a fast moving plot!
I think that you are confusing two distinct issues.
(1) Should a system, as a *normal* result of combat, produce a string of
disabled and dismembered PCs who have to be retired? Answer: probably
not, especially if it slows down play.
(2) Should a system have a quantifiable way for a GM to describe
dismemberment or disfigurement when it is dramatically appropriate?
Answer, IMHO, yes.
> >For example, can missing
> >fingers be replaced by regeneration, or does it require a transform?
>
> Oy vey, that's an entire other thread - it really depends on the SFX of the
> Regeneration, I guess.
Actually, quantifying such things is part and parcel of the grey area
that I wanted to discuss, not a side issue at all.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 02:26:54 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Reduced END Question
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Trevor Barrie wrote:
>
> On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Robert A. West wrote:
>
> > (1) What END do you charge for dodge, block, etc?
>
> 1. Err, when I remember that rule.:) It's the official rule, and it's
> always seemed reasonable enough.
>
Well...I wrote this question just after I had an argument with someone
about it and failed to find the rule. It turned out that I was just
looking past it. <embarrassed look>
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 03:01:37 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: No-Win Scenarios [Re: GMing Question #1]
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Trevor Barrie wrote:
>
> On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Robert A. West wrote:
>
> > (4) John & Ron & everyone who minimized the moral dilemma of the last 800
> > survivors of an alien race vs the thousands of humans who would die if
> > they landed, I say, "Shame! Shame!" Are any of you really that
> > stone-hearted that you cannot feel the tragedy? BTW, the word "genocide"
> > is precisely appropriate. If the aliens really have no other option, and
> > are not a super-altruistic race, they will attempt to land and you will
> > have to blow them up to prevent it. It may be the first case
> > of justifiable genocide since Cro Magnon exterminated Neanderthal,
>
> How was this justifiable? I'm not suggesting we punish the descendants of
> the perpretrators or anything, but I'm curious what your reasoning is.
As I interpret this, it would be considered justifiable because the
alternative would be to allow your own race to die. Rule #1 of life is
protect yourself, your family and your race. The quandry presented
gives two options (barring any further kibitzing from the peanut
gallery); either destroy the aliens (inadvertantly exterminating the
entirety of their species) or allow them to land and exterminate your
own entire species. To choose the aliens over the humans would be
racial treason, thus the only option is to exterminate theirs. Doesn't
mean you have to be happy about it.
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 03:26:55 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: The Tragic Tale of Norse God of Thunder and The Mad Bomber
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Robert A. West wrote:
> Well, now that you have opened this can of worms . . .
>
> If a weapon is, by its defined magical properties, very hard, but not
> impossible, to grab and take away, then would it not be appropriate to
> point it up as an OIF? For that matter, should there be something called
> an Obvious Semi-Accessible Focus: OSF(-3/4)?
That's splitting hairs a bit too fine for my taste. A focus should
be either Accessable or InAccessable. Considering how often a character
with a suit of Power Armour defined as OIF is *actually* without the
armour (in most games), it's asking a lot to expect a GM to have too
many levels of 'accessibility' for focii.
Remember, in comic books, the dynamics of most (if not nearly all)
examples of power armour and other 'worn' focii actually represent
OnlyInHeroID. When Players choose to have armour 'like Iron Man's',
they need to realize that buying it as a focus will leave them without
it much more often than Tony Stark (or whoever the hell is using 'The
Armour' now) is deprived of his. But many GMs also are confused by the
attempt to compare the gaming version to the comic version, and are not
harsh enough on enforcing the limitation.
So adding another level of accessability seems to me an attempt to
create a rule to fix a problem that is one of enforcement, rather than
lack of resources.
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 03:33:41 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: I'm baaack!
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Jim Dickinson wrote:
>
> At 11:35 AM 10/13/97 -0500, Rick Ryker wrote:
> >Actually, I checked a few of my old campaign notes;
> >and I was still playing in 1989. Not quite ten years ago.
> >My prized possession is my hard cover first printing
> >of the Fourth Edition rules book, Dated 1989.
>
> I have one of those! And it was only recently that the binding finally
> came loose...but some hot glue fixed that right up...
>
> (This was one of the things that most people were complaining about with
> those books, was the crappy binding job)
I fixed THAT problem, my '89 Champs 4th ed. is currently in a
three-ring binder; I hole punched all the inner pages, and duct-taped
the front and back covers onto the front and back of the binder.
Actually, this makes it easier for me to keep things organized; all
my rewrites of the characters I use from the book are conveniently
inserted in the binder right alongdside the source page for easy
reference...
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 97 10:51:24 UT
From: "Jeff Tolle" <Trigon@classic.msn.com>
Subject: RE: Tragic Tale of a Lonely Archer
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I would buy the power as Flying, Then you can give it an activation (Does the
arrow hit, and penetrate,) and an OAF. It should also require gestures (i.e.
you better hold on) It should be useable by others, and have a limited range
Good Luck
BTW Jason, are you from NC?
Jeff Tolle
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-champ-l@omg.org On Behalf Of ALONE AT MIDNIGHT
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 1997 2:56 PM
To: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Tragic Tale of a Lonely Archer
Archer is a hero with a 3d6 KA (32 recoverable charges, 2 handed
weapon, OAF, Independent, Str miniumum 28, Power Limitation: Cost END) to
simulate a bow he uses in combat...
I want to give him a movement power, namely Swinging, in the form
of an Arrow with a line attached to it. How do I simulate this Sf/x,
considering it will take time and probally a Skill roll to get the arrow
into the object in question. It would be impossible for him to use it
in rapid sucession (like a Spider-Guy would...), or on objects that are
too dense for the arrow to penetrate. If he has one recoverable charge,
could he just pluck it using the cord attached to it? Would the focus
be the sing line itself, the arrow, or the bow? Would it be Linked to
the previous attack, and if it were, would it cost additional END to
fire (or would you just buy it with the Limitation: Charges)? What
is the DEF and BODY of a swing line? How long is it? Would it
add any bonuses to climbing (and how fast could he climb up it)?
....can anyone out there think of the numerous Sf/x of a piece of rope?
Sliding across it from an elevation, using it to choke an enemy, tripping
or 'clotheslining' a number of goons running itno your line of fire,
entangling someone with a 'bounced' shot, rappling, climbing (again),
shooting it into a helecopter so the brick in your part can tug it down,
having other people on it at the same time, tying yourself down to a street
lamp while Dr. Wind conjures up a storm.... how would these translate into
game terms? ...and how much weight could it support? What if it missed?!?
Your feed back would be appreciated.
Archers of the World, Unite!
Jason Sullivan
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 03:51:43 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Player input (was:Re: Antinomy/Tragedy/No-Win
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Curtis Gibson wrote:
> <...>I came up to the GM
> and said "Hey, I'd like you to kill Black Cat, bring her back without
> her Martial arts, have her get possessed by the 'evil' side of her
> powers, go badguy for a while, get captured, depowered sent to jail and
> then turn into a full blown 'mystic' Martial Artist."
> <....> how many of you GMs out there have, or want, this level
> of player input. I get a lot of plot requests from my players and try to
> work them in. I personally think it is wonderfull, but have run into GMs
> that don't want 'the players plotting the campaign'. Just curious.
Oh, my, I dream of this kind of player input. In my current game,
everybody is so busy with reallife all the time that scheduling is a
bitch, which leaves me weeks to ruminate on all the stuff going on in my
campaign world in the background.
You would think this should help, wouldn't you? By the time a
gathering can be arranged, I'm at a loss as to where the PCs can fit
back into my world. In fact, I have a game this Saturday, after a
three-month hiatus and at this time have NO IDEA what I'm going to do.
I have no problem knowing every last detail of what is going on in every
area of my world at any given time, but am often caught up short when
required to actually relate it to the PCs without any outside input or
suggestions, at least not without it becoming nothing but a seemingly
pointless combat because I've already played out the setup and
introduction to the encounter in my head two weeks ago.
At the beginning of every gaming session I run, regardless of whether
I have something planned or not, the FIRST priority is asking all
players if they have any direction they were planning on/hoping for. A
pre-planned adventure can always be savid for later, but a
player-spawned adventure often depends on the players' mood and/or
particular state of mind at the time, and could be lost forever if not
siezed upon immediately.
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 97 12:06:04 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Steve McGinness)
Subject: Re: No-Win Scenarios [Re: GMing Question #1]
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At 03:01 AM 14/10/97 -0700, cptspith@com.teleport wrote:
>Trevor Barrie wrote:
>> How was this justifiable? I'm not suggesting we punish the descendants of
>> the perpretrators or anything, but I'm curious what your reasoning is.
>
> As I interpret this,.....
I think you have misinterpreted the actual question. I think Trevor was
interested in the justifiability of the extermination of Neanderthal by
Cro-Magnon, obviously your justification for exterminating the aliens is
spot-on!! :-)
Stephen McGinness
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 05:41:55 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Normal Characteristic Maxaima
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At 01:04 AM 10/14/97 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>> I agree, the last seems strange -- buy your STR 0 END, and it can be as
high
>> as you want it? But the write-up for Defender definitely follows this
>> course, paying only standard costs for his OIF Characteristics.
>
>Defender would hardly be the only officially-published character to have
>mistakes in his character sheet, though.
But would he be the only one actually in the BBB?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 05:43:26 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: I'm baaack!
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At 03:14 PM 10/13/97 -0700, Jim Dickinson wrote:
>At 11:35 AM 10/13/97 -0500, Rick Ryker wrote:
>>Actually, I checked a few of my old campaign notes;
>>and I was still playing in 1989. Not quite ten years ago.
>>My prized possession is my hard cover first printing
>>of the Fourth Edition rules book, Dated 1989.
>
>I have one of those! And it was only recently that the binding finally
>came loose...but some hot glue fixed that right up...
>
>(This was one of the things that most people were complaining about with
>those books, was the crappy binding job)
Yeah, that was why, after about two years, I had to toss my hardcover
Champions and go get a softcover edition.
(Though I still want to go get a copy of Champions Deluxe someday before
they finally vanish from the stores forever.)
---
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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 05:47:11 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
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At 10:24 AM 10/13/97 -0700, Mark Lemming wrote:
>Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> Now, to bring this back to Champions -- anyone besides me been
>> tempted to run a session or two with Bill Gates as the big villian?
>> Next time I'm in the mood for humor I'm gonna do something of the sort. Or
>> maybe Foxbat kidnaps him for some reason . . . hmmm. Nope, won't
>> work, the players wouldn't want to rescue him.
>
>A friend has him as a recurring villian. He's actually an ancient
>dragon that has assumed a human form and is slowly taking over the
>world. Except for the dragon part he's just like this world's
>version...
Or maybe he's a robotic vehicle for a hamster bent on world domination.
---
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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 05:57:01 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
Cc: hero-l@emerald.omg.org
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At 09:00 AM 10/13/97 +0000, Vance Scott wrote:
>> hows about actual contributions? even if not fer yer own campaign,
>> but just fer fun? ne1 else one the list interested in
>> a cooperative 'generic' superheroic timeline? just for the hell of it? *eg*
>
>Actually Rook has a time line set-up on his Web page that allows
>submissions, but I think an alternate champions time line would be an
>interesting, and fun project. I think we should limit ourselves to
>the characters presented in the various champioins products.
As another stipulation, be careful about putting published adventures as
historical events, in case someone wants to use both the adventure and the
timeline without having to finagle the latter.
The main two exceptions, because of how they affect so much published
elsewhere in the CU and because they've been given specific dates in the
published materials, are the Day of the Destroyer (29 January 1990) and the
Assault on Stronghold (7 Dec 1991, from Classic Organizations). True, both
dates are given in the CU timeline, but as I've said they're also events
that help shape other established "facts."
---
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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 05:57:01 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
Cc: hero-l@emerald.omg.org
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At 09:00 AM 10/13/97 +0000, Vance Scott wrote:
>> hows about actual contributions? even if not fer yer own campaign,
>> but just fer fun? ne1 else one the list interested in
>> a cooperative 'generic' superheroic timeline? just for the hell of it? *eg*
>
>Actually Rook has a time line set-up on his Web page that allows
>submissions, but I think an alternate champions time line would be an
>interesting, and fun project. I think we should limit ourselves to
>the characters presented in the various champioins products.
As another stipulation, be careful about putting published adventures as
historical events, in case someone wants to use both the adventure and the
timeline without having to finagle the latter.
The main two exceptions, because of how they affect so much published
elsewhere in the CU and because they've been given specific dates in the
published materials, are the Day of the Destroyer (29 January 1990) and the
Assault on Stronghold (7 Dec 1991, from Classic Organizations). True, both
dates are given in the CU timeline, but as I've said they're also events
that help shape other established "facts."
---
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X-Sender: shelley@mail.mactyre.net
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 06:15:49 -0700
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Brian,
I believe you've mistaken my meaning. I consider timelines *before* the
game starts to be unnecessary. Obviously, games create their own history
-- or else I wouldn't have a 16 meg website! When I enter a game with a
meticulously structured history and timeline, I get the feeling from the GM
that he'd rather be dictating a novel than running a roleplaying game --
and which has always proven to be the case in those games. Personally, I
like the players to have much more of an influence.
At 11:22 AM 10/13/97 -0700, Rook wrote:
> After making it up, you write down when it happened, thus a timeline is
>born.Do you know when super's began to appear in your world? Why?
> In your world, the public hates paranormals, why is this? How did it
>happen? What event's ahve occured because of it?
Right, and these are things which the players have a vague understanding of
in the beginning, and which get more clearly defined in their game, not
something I pass out when they show up at my house.
>> When, for example, the heroine Firehawk showed
>> up in the game (and she would become a primary NPC), it was just a matter
>> of telling them her public record and moving on from there.
>
> Her public record is a piece of the timeline...
But say I decide two months after I draft the timeline that I don't want
Firehawk around, or that she really doesn't fit anymore -- the game's moved
in another direction. I'd feel locked into using her, or I'd be forced to
ignore her. But my time's been wasted, period. And this would hold true
with other things. Say I've written in my timeline of the world that no
paranormals existed before 1950 -- but then I'm given Protector's
background (a guy who went back to 1939 and was part of an official team).
I'd have to reject it. But in this case: no timeline, no written record,
and I could be flexible -- and it really added to the game.
>> Ditto on
>> villains. I didn't feel locked into a rigid view of the universe (back
>> then), and one of the main reasons why I strongly considered *not* using
>> the Golden Hawks Universe (though I acquiesced to player opinion) when
>> planning my current FTF game was because I have the ponderous weight of
>> four campaigns that I feel I have to be consistent with when I run. Now, I
>> can't use X team because the Hawks beat 'em up or have Armstrong show up
>> because of that wacky "Armstrong Debacle" plot from way back when.
>>
>
> True, but that only adds to the flavor for most of us.
But let the players dictate the stories! Those stories exist for the sole
purpose of the fact I wrote them down after they played it -- the plots
moved the way they did and created the events they did because the
characters decided to do things their way. Imposing the Armstrong debacle
on a group is dry -- nothing like being in the room with Matthew, Marcus,
and Jennifer arguing about it (which they still do whenever they get
together) and it's completely meaningless to anyone else (except, I think,
for the players who are in the room watching them lose all dignity and yell
at each other!) You won't get strong feelings without letting them have a
stake in it.
> Timelines let you have consistancy without tripping over your own feet.
Goodness, that's what keeping notes is all about! And don't tell me that's
also contributing to the timeline -- of course it is. It's letting the
*players* contribute to the timeline. That's the difference.
>> Anyway, there's been a ton of discussion about this recently, both here and
>> on #herochat, and I must say, Matthew and I have been shaking our heads
>> over it. =)
>>
>
> Well, that certainly won't stop it from being discussed.
Er...right. Of course not -- why would I try?
>Many of us find it an invaluable tool. To know a worlds history is to know
why
>this or
>that group disputes things. This or that political situation is happeneing.
>Etc...
> If I make a Korean Super Hero, knowing that historically Korea has been
>attacked
>over an over by Japan will help me gauge his reactions to Japanese Heroes.
Right. Presumably you'd have the presence of mind (or your GM would) to
discuss his background before you made him up.
> If I make a mutant, knowing there's a group trying to get a mutant
>registration group through, and
>at sucha and such points in history they achived this and that goals will
help
>me understand my heroes
>world view.
As above. Brian, I think you value the same things I do in a game, or in
needing to know the feeling. The difference here, I think, is that I want
the players to write history -- with their backgrounds and actions -- more
than I want to. When I want to convey a feeling in the game, I devise a
plot which will allow the characters to interact with something which will
bring that into being. With the aforementioned Armstrong Debacle it was
that I wanted something Babylon 5-eque -- the characters were all very
loyal, very patriotic, upright heroes who'd never questioned the
government, and here they were confronted with how to handle uncovering an
incredible level of corruption -- that was how it started. How they
handled it determined the outcome. This works so much better than if
someone just read it in a timeline -- and that's why, with that Armstrong
Debacle page, I wanted them to write their versions of events, in the hope
people could see the emotions which came out of it.
At any rate, perhaps I'm more sensitive about this issue because of the web
site. I have people who write me asking why such and such happened and why
I did this and why I let my players do that....Example: a person misreading
a G3 turn (who'd never played Matthew's Chessmen or even read all of it)
sent me several very impassioned e-mails demanding to know why I mistreated
the organization and why the newspaper I'd uploaded didn't handle it
differently. <sigh> And it happens all the time. Believe me, flexibility
is better. Now I have to double check four or five pages before I can make
an off-hand statement about something in recent history -- and I thank my
stars that my face-to-face players are largely unfamiliar with the web site!
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
www.mactyre.net
Your children will see the stars.
--Robert A. Heinlein
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:09:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Bill Gates as Champions Villain
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On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Matt Korth wrote:
> > Now, to bring this back to Champions -- anyone besides me been
> > tempted to run a session or two with Bill Gates as the big villian? Next
> > time I'm in the mood for humor I'm gonna do something of the sort. Or
> > maybe Foxbat kidnaps him for some reason . . . hmmm. Nope, won't work,
> > the players wouldn't want to rescue him.
>
> Well, I *do* have a JPEG picture called "billborg", and a writeup posted
> on the list a long time ago of a typical Borg...
I had an NPC inspired by both Bill Gates and the net joke/rumor about
Microsoft buying out the Catholic Church. In this campaign, the existence
of superhumans had drastically altered the world, with the supers becoming
feudal warlords as the world broke down into small city-states. One
Italian super, Leonardo Venturi, was an incredible genius with computers
and technology, and hence the world's richest man. He bought the Catholic
Church, partly because he could, and partly because he had a major God
complex. He liked to tell people he was the Pope's boss.
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:53:57 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: THe Tragic Tale of Holy Ground
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> Vampire Killer B and Doktor Von Helmsley are both vampire hunters.
>Vampire Killer B has a holy sword. Doktor Von Helmsley has the power of
>faith.
> Now, how would you work the Sf/x of a holy item, like B's sword?
>What about blessing an object, or an area, as 'sacred ground,' or holding
>a vampire at bay with a cross, or actually burning the blood sucker
>with holy water?
Holy items are largely SFX that hit the target creature's Vulnerabilities
and/or Susceptibilities. For example, most demons and vampires should be
build with "2x BODY and STUN from Holy Objects" or similar disadvantages.
Creating sacred ground would be a Change Environment, while blessing an
object would probably be a Transform (Minor, I'd say). Vampires should have
Phys.Lim.: Repulsed by Crosses/Garlic, and Susceptibility: XD6 from Holy
Water. Note this all assumes 'classic' movie vampires, as opposed to Anne
Rice or VtM-style angsty vampires. Chinese Hopping Vampires are another
matter :-).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:54:00 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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>> I think it's the wrong construct to use; I'd go with a Shapeshift (one form,
>[remainder of discussion deleted]
>
>Oh, bother! I suppose that you are trying to be helpful, but I am
>interested in discussing a troubling aspect of multiform, not finding a
>work-around for a particular character. There are lots of reasons you
>might *want* a multiform. Suppose that the Wolf form has lower INT than
>the human and lacks most skills? Suppose they are two different
>personalities altogether. What about the fact that the two forms should
>have totally different disadvantages?
All of which can be worked around! Buy back INT with a Limitation (yes, -4
INT, Only During a Full Moon (-2), for a total buy-back of 1 point rather
than 4). You could easily do the same thing with skills, or take the
Phys.Lim.: Totally Savage in Were-form, making him unable to use most
'human' skills, but still use Stealth, Shadowing, and whatever else.
Different personalities is a separate issue - with GM permission, just buy X
amount of Psych.Lims. for each form, and they only apply when in that
particular form, and you only get X points for them, not 2 times X. And they
shouldn't have 'totally different' disadvantages, especially if it's a
classic werewolf.
I often find Multiform to be the wrong approach. Unless the two forms are
incredibly different (as opposed to the werewolf example, where you're going
from human to man-beast, really), a combination of Shapeshift and OIHID (or
some other situational limitation) often works even better (with more
available points!).
>If the "no state memory" rule is not true, then there must be characters
>that are achievable by a radiation accident that are not achievable
>without one, or vice-versa, or both.
Huh? You keep track of Real Points. The point total of a PC only changes
through gained XP. Looking at the point totals of base points, disads, and
XP will always tell you how much the PC costs...
>> No it isn't. Multo came by his XP honestly, earning them with the 'help' of
>> his multiforms. FormX didn't - his forms never had the chance to earn their
>> XPs, so they have to come up with points via disads.
>
>OK. Suppose instead of writing "Hero Bonus", I write "XP," and give
>FormX a backstory to explain how he got his experience. Should this
>change things? Is Multo required to spend his XP based on which form he
>spent most of an expedition as? Not in my campaign.
Check out most Champs 'official' writeups - you'll find Multiforms with
'Hero/Villian Bonuses' (read: XP) sitting in their Multiforms and/or
Duplicates. But for a PC, when he first buys the Multi/Dupe form, it doesn't
have XP, b/c the PC has none. If you want to build FormX in the manner of a
NPC (i.e. 'Hero Bonuses', not worrying about point totals), that's another
matter.
>> Hey, what about the Bleeding rules?
>
>This is part of the area that I am talking about. Under strict Hero
>rules, death is a very mechanical thing that occurs on a strict schedule.
>Since the explosion occured, by definition, on segment 12, Snow Wolf
>(Wine Te:me, pronounced Win-ay Tam-ay, more or less) should have bled
>to death post-12, before help could arrive. This felt dramatically
>wrong, especially since the new player for the evening had already
>decided that his secret ID worked in a hospital, and the appearance of a
>mysterious patient, guarded by ONI, sounded like an excellent lead-in.
>The problem was that, once I made the dramatically appropriate decision,
>there was really no convenient way to quantify what I had decided upon.
>Under the basic rules, a person with 20 BODY who is reduced to 0 BODY
>will bleed to death in four minutes, which is really a very short time
>for help to arrive if your world does not involve teleporters.
??? Your point being? A 10 BODY wound is pretty impressive - like taking a
shotgun blast to the chest! Or having an arm ripped off!
>I think that you are confusing two distinct issues.
>
>(1) Should a system, as a *normal* result of combat, produce a string of
>disabled and dismembered PCs who have to be retired? Answer: probably
>not, especially if it slows down play.
If this is a regular occurance in your Champs games, you need to either stop
using Killing Attacks or beef up the player's Resistant Defenses. The
average super-battle produces a lot of knocked out people and a couple of
flesh wounds, not a bunch of dismembered individuals. If so, you really do
need that Regen: Useable By Others, and shouldn't be bothered by the speed
at which the PCs are back in action.
>(2) Should a system have a quantifiable way for a GM to describe
>dismemberment or disfigurement when it is dramatically appropriate?
>Answer, IMHO, yes.
IMHO, no, it isn't necessary. There are literally _dozens_ of systems that
don't and they still work fine. This is the sort of thing that belongs in a
gritty game (like Millenium's End, which tells you _exactly_ where a bullet
will hit someone via transparancy templates), but not HERO, which is really
a heavily cinematic-based game. This is sort of like asking a set of
vector-based flight mechanics for a Star Wars game :-).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:58:03 -0700
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Disadvantage enforcement...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote:
> I have somewhat of a problem with disadds and my playing group.
>
> For some background: Until a few months ago, my group played
> nothing but AD&D, and had for nearly 8 years. I, extremely bored
> with that game, and completely enamored of a game system that I
> had recently picked up, decided that I would start a Champions
> campaign.
>
Hmmm.... I know that story, I was there in 85... If you like Fantasy,
but aretired of the AD&D ruleset, try Fantasy Hero.
> Where both they and I had a problem was with Psych Limitations.
> How much was something worth? Why was A worth less than B? What
> happens if I go against my Limit? Etc.
>
> So here's my question: Has anyone expanded on the Psychological
> Limitation rules? Possibly even extended the list of common
> limits which was in the BBB? How do GURPS disadds compare
> price-wise to Hero?
>
Check out:http://biomat.dental.ufl.edu/~jason/disadvantages.html
It's a list of hundreds of sample disads.
The only true advice I can give you is look at as many published and net
character's as you can
for ideas on what they should be worth. With time it will be second
nature.
GURPS disads are mostly psychological, and they're all pre contructed.
It's very
hard to do a direct comparison.
For a good listing of online characters, go to:
http://www.mactyre.net/scm/deejay/champs/writeups.html
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat #gurps and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
Gurps is for discussion of the GURPS RolePlaying Game
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:30:53 +0000
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Reply-to: ghoyle1@airmail.net
Priority: normal
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> << Several of my own Players have benefitted from HeroMaker. I've
> gotten a phone call from one of them, he was using HM and wanted me to
> explain something about it... It's helped them understand the game and
> character mechanics, and especially how their characters are built.
> >>
>
> However, the one problem I have found is that it does allow you to break the
> rules, and if the other champions players are also not too experienced it can
> get confusing. But generally I have found it to be a great help in
> understanding game mechanics....
Of course, you can break the rules WITHOUT Heromaker, too...
Heromaker is basically meant to be used by people who are already
acquainted with the Hero System. It's meant to be as flexible as the
system itself is. What "rules" in particular is it letting you
break? If it's stuff like using Ablative with an Energy Blast,
there's technically no rule against that in the game, either; it just
doesn't make much sense, and it doesn't limit the power, so it's not
really worth any points. I presume they didn't want to compromise
the flexibility of the program by eliminating things like that
(especially since people have found some really unusual uses for
modifiers).
Guy
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:04:13 -0700
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
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Subject: Re: Korean Girls Built with Heromaker
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Robert A. West wrote:
> Brian Wong wrote:
> >
> > > >to be an effort by drunk GI's to get into the skirts of Korean girls.
> > >
> > > Let me tell you from personal experience it works:
> > > Seduction, 8 or less, +1 per common language known, +1 per drink over
> > > the 2 minimum :)
>
> Limited by Wealth(-1/4)
>
> > >
> > Only when going after prostitudes.
> > I never cruised broadway for a $20 screw in the USA, and I didn't use
> > being in asia as an excuse to do it there either.
> >
> > Though most American's I met did. And I often had to defend myself
> > in polite Korean society from accusations of being a John by default of my
> > nationality.
>
> That seems odd, as I understand that the biggest customers of the local
> "hostesses" in East Asia are the Japanese, Korean and, to a lesser
> extent, Chinese businessman. The Japanese sex-tour business is
> apparently legendary.
>
Yes it is, a friend of mines girlfriend was killed by a Japanese guy during
sex. This wasin the time when sex-slavery was still common in Korea, and the
woman was forced into it.
> Of course, being far from home is seen by many as an excuse. I
> decline to believe that this is uniquely American in any way, shape or
> form.
True, but we have the reputation for it. Weras they are more descreet.
I lived in Korea specifically for 4 years. I saw countless cases of American's
out
of hand. While I did see Koreanonly prostitute areas, they were not out in the
open.
Wheras the ones catering to Americans were.
Incedentally, a big problem over there now is american GI women who
prostitute
on the side.
And sex slavery of illegal asian immigrants is a growing problem here in the
USA.
As it is in Japan. They are legendary for it. Just ask any Korean who was alive
before WWII.
I hear the new target for the Japanese sex-trade is young girls kidnapped
from south america.
But anyay, this has nothing to do with Champions or Hero.
Sorry for causing this side track...
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat #gurps and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
Gurps is for discussion of the GURPS RolePlaying Game
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:36:37 -0700 (PDT)
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Hello;
It's possible we see 'what a timeline is' diferently. If not, then
we'll be disagreeing on this point to our graves; but if so, we may find
something we agree on.
I don't see it as a highly structured, unflexable item. To me it's
more of a dtatbase of events, lined up in order.
Prior to a campaign beginning I put in a few events to show the
nature of my world. Or to show major things that will be needed to be
considered in PC design.
For instance, let's say in my world Martin Luthor King Jr. is
presisdent (to steal from GURPS IST for a second). Well, this differs
dramatically from real world history, so I'd need to say why and how it
came about.
You gave the example of protector as a hero who traveled back to a date
that could have been before super's first appeared. Well, if my game had such
a date, it would also serve as a cut off point for such style origins. As is,
my world defines it loose enough that Aladin and Hercules may have been early
Supers... So I don't face this problem too strongly. There is a point in history
where the super-paradigm shifts out into the open. And would make a cut-off
for that point.
But as I use a world which is neither the published one, nor one where
super's just appeared yesterday, I need definition.
I like lots of definition in my PC's and NPC's and in my world
around them.
Therefore I like to have a basic framework upon which I can build.
Campaign world consistancy is important to me. It's why I prefer DS9 over
Classic Star Trek. Each event shapes the next.
I put enough detail to highlight the world I'm setting my game in.
Each entry into my timeline before the game begins has a very specific purpose.
They're not just randomd dates and names. They may look that way, but that's
how history is.
Lets take a look at something from my V&V timeline to highlight this.
The interplay with Nymph and Captain Patriot gets lots of comments, so
I'll highlight that.
Here it is below:
6/12/1987 Nymph San Francisco
13 year old Teen Idol Sylvia Chan makes her
debate as Nymph, new member of the San
Francisco Golden Guard.
8/13/1987 Nymph and Jerry Fallwell San Francisco
Teen Idol Sylvia Chan (Nymph) announces
she is a Pagan who got her powers from the
Faerie Realm. Jerry Fallwell announces he is
praying for her soul. Sylvia counters that she
is praying for his.
4/1/1993 Nymph in Playboy San Francisco
Nymph (aka Sylvia Chan) poses in Playboy
just after her 18th birthday in an 18 page
spread. Golden Guard Team Leader Captain
Patriot voices strong objections and demands
she quit the team. Nymph tells him to get a
life and f*** off during an interview on
Letterman. In response to a caption under one
photo saying "I'm Nymph, but I'm no
Nympho", she says while her wording was a
little more intelligent, the point was made.
7/28/1993 Golden Guards Breakup San Francisco
The Golden Guards have a fallout when
members disagree on amount of government
cooperation desired. Diferring political views
and long standing personal conflicts cause the
group to have a hostile fragmenting. This
leaves the city with no official team.
Nymph/Sylvia basically represents the loved rebel motiff for my V&V world.
She helps me establish in here a few things.
1. First, that in my world, Super's are viewed as celerbrities.
2. Then she helps set up some of the religious tension, there's an
entry just prior where it's shown than the pope and various
pagan groups dispute each other's gods as being nothing more than
early 'supers' (which in itself sets up the theme that super's have
always been among us, in small numbers...).
3. When she poses in Playboy and causes a breakup of her team over it
it highlights morality diferences between two generations of heroes.
All of these and other events show that there are themes that I wish
to explore in a game. It helps give players a feel for the mood I'm seeking.
The more such detail I provide ahead of time, the better my players
can sync their character's to the game world. If I get players who don't want
to play in a world with such themes, then we're probably not compatable; and
a future conflict is avoided ahead of time.
When I join a new game, the first thing I ask is what's the world like,
how will my character be viewed. THis way I can shape my PC to the world's
needs and paradigms.
If I joined "Stan Lee's" game as a mutant, I'd certainly want to know
who the X-men are and what's happened with them before I stuck my foot in
that bear trap.
I look at Shelley's G3 universe online and I have a pretty good idea
that Nymph would not fit it. Her world shows that Super's are not public Idols.
Unfortunatly, I don't know why this is, or when it happened.
A Timeline servs as the framework. It's the glue that holds all the
other elements together.
It can be altered if needed, it's main purpose is not to read like a
stale history book; but to show ongoing themes, highlight how the worlds
paradigms play out, and ensure consistancy.
There's a form in the BBB for setting up a campaign, it has you asign
a value from 1 to 5 for various settings. This to me is not enough. So I do
up a Timeline that reflects what I mean when I say "mostly 4 color, light
hearted, but with strong moral-dramas".
The Timeline gives specific events, either made up, or from my worlds
actual play history. Events that reflect the themes I shoot for.
I could continue, but I still have other email to get to this month. :)
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Effective Armour Management (was Norse God of Thunder)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:00:48 +0100
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-----Original Message-----
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: 14 October 1997 02:08
Subject: Re: The Tragic Tale of Norse God of Thunder and The Mad Bomber
>Robert A. West wrote:
>
>> Well, now that you have opened this can of worms . . .
>>
>> If a weapon is, by its defined magical properties, very hard, but not
>> impossible, to grab and take away, then would it not be appropriate to
>> point it up as an OIF? For that matter, should there be something called
>> an Obvious Semi-Accessible Focus: OSF(-3/4)?
>
> That's splitting hairs a bit too fine for my taste. A focus should
>be either Accessable or InAccessable. Considering how often a character
>with a suit of Power Armour defined as OIF is *actually* without the
>armour (in most games), it's asking a lot to expect a GM to have too
>many levels of 'accessibility' for focii.
> Remember, in comic books, the dynamics of most (if not nearly all)
>examples of power armour and other 'worn' focii actually represent
>OnlyInHeroID. When Players choose to have armour 'like Iron Man's',
>they need to realize that buying it as a focus will leave them without
>it much more often than Tony Stark (or whoever the hell is using 'The
>Armour' now) is deprived of his. But many GMs also are confused by the
>attempt to compare the gaming version to the comic version, and are not
>harsh enough on enforcing the limitation.
> So adding another level of accessability seems to me an attempt to
>create a rule to fix a problem that is one of enforcement, rather than
>lack of resources.
>
> -Capt. Spith
I had a player once who wanted to build himself a suit of armour as a
vehicle and pump the vast majority of his points into it.
At the time I said "NO WAY!" as it far too munchkin-excessive for me (and I
will usually let you do anything which isn't specifically banned in the
rules)
However, when I was thinking about this one I realised how many problems
this overcomes.
1:Damage to the armour. How many times have you seen Iron Man get hit by a
really big blast of something and some of his systems not go offline or get
damaged. If you have your armour Only in Hero ID then you can effecttivly
build a suit of armour that will work at it's peak capacity until it falls
apart.
2:Having more than one suit of armour. Iron Man at one point was maintaining
his Standard Red/Gold armour, a suit of stealth armour, a suit of space
armour and a suit of undersea armour. He also had a old spare suit which
Rodey used to back him up when things got really rough. It's a lot easier to
simulate this with a couple of vehicles than with a set of "Only when in
Stealth/Space/Undersea armours" disads and those expensive "usuable by
others" for the ones you are not using.
3: Where the hell does he get all the points to build these damn suits
anyway??? To build a realistic Iron Man clone you need far too many points
to consider him a reasonable starters character. At least this way you have
a decent head start if you are trying to do it all within 150 pts!
So, its far to points efficient, but it works.
After all, if you take his armour away (or give it a good sticking) then he
stops getting the benefits..........
How about it? Comments, opinions....
Thanks,
Chris.
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:02:31 -0700
From: The Lighthouse IPHC <lthsiphc@elbertonga.com>
Reply-To: lthsiphc@elbertonga.com
Organization: The Lighthouse
Subject: I'm back too!
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My appologies to the list but this is the only way I can think of to get
back on track. My ISP crashed almost 2 months ago and I am just now
getting back on line. They also lost all the mail that was sent to me
and by me during this breakdown. If anyone responded to my questions
about writeups for characters from Norse Mythology.
PS. If Will Geiger is still out there I lost your address as well as
your e-mail address and so that is why I haven't been in contact with
you in the last few months.
Sorry for taking up space.
Patrick B.
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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:20:29 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Korean Girls Built with Heromaker
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At 04:01 PM 10/14/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote:
>>
>> In a message dated 10/11/97 3:06:55 AM, rook@infinex.com wrote:
>> >can figure out the full thing in a good hour. At the core of it's
>> development seems
>> >to be an effort by drunk GI's to get into the skirts of Korean girls.
>>
>> Let me tell you from personal experience it works:
>> Seduction, 8 or less, +1 per common language known, +1 per drink over
>> the 2 minimum :)
>>
> Only when going after prostitudes.
I'm gonna have to take issue with this...
I go to college in the US, and, while my Seduction skill isn't
enought to warrant 1pt on, I know MANY guys who use the above rules in real
life... They usually don't get the "common language bonus," 'cause that's
the default, but the drink thing seems about right... and, no, these girls
(the ones I've met, anyway) aren't prostitutes.
- Jerry
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 14 Oct 97 18:47:00 GMT
X-To: herolist@october.com (herolist) On 10-10-97 herolist@october.com wrote to All... h > From: herolist@october.com (herolist) h > Subject: Poll for OS h > To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) h > Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) h > h > h > h > From: "Mann, Wade" <WMann@Rogue.CC.OR.US> h > Subject: Poll for OS h > To: champ-l@omg.org h > h > I am currently developing some software that might be released through h > Hero Games. I am trying to figure out
Subject: Poll for OS
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To: herolist@october.com (herolist)
On 10-10-97 herolist@october.com wrote to All...
h > From: herolist@october.com (herolist)
h > Subject: Poll for OS
h > To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero)
h > Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero)
h >
h >
h >
h > From: "Mann, Wade" <WMann@Rogue.CC.OR.US>
h > Subject: Poll for OS
h > To: champ-l@omg.org
h >
h > I am currently developing some software that might be released through
h > Hero Games. I am trying to figure out the platforms that I should
h > support.
h >
h > How many of you are using win 3.x, win95/nt, and/or Mac?
h >
h > Any information received would be appreciated.
h >
h > Wade R. Mann
h >
h >
h >
h > ---
h > * Origin: Usenet:Fidonet: Red October Gateway (1:143/241.0)
DOS 5.1 (on a 386/20, 2 Mb)
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 14 Oct 97 18:55:02 GMT
Subject: Pushing
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h > Here's some questions I have about Pushing, I'm looking for
h > "official" rulings and also "how do *you* handle it" stuff.
h > Which Powers are Push-able?
All powers that cost END to use. It's up to the GM if he wants to
include powers that are bought with the costs END limitation
(as one player put it "I bought my Luck 'costs endurance' that
way, I can push my luck!"
h > Just Attack Powers? Are Movement
h > Powers fair game? What about Teleportation?
Um.. No, Yes, Yes. :)
h > Would you allow a character to Push his Force Field? And how long woul
Sure, it would last until the characters next action.
h > Are partial Pushes acceptable? ex. A 10d6 EB pushed to only
h > 11d6
h > (assume no Advantages). And, if so, is the extra END based off of
h > only how
h > much was Pushed? ex.2. A 10d6 AP EB pushed to 11d6 AP EB. Does it
h > only
h > cost 7 extra END?
Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes. Pushing costs 1 END per Apt up to a max of 10 extra
Apts of power. That's only a maximum, you can push as little as you want.
h >
h > Basically, *any* comments I can get here (on topic, and
h > non-threatening : ) would be greatly appreciated and probably
h > helpful.
h >
h > - Jerry
h >
h >
h >
h > ---
h > * Origin: Usenet:Fidonet: Red October Gateway (1:143/241.0)
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From: PopTholian@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:55:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Re: Poll for OS
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>currently still actively resisting continuing pressure to upgrade to
>Win'95. I also know a few people who don't like '95 either, and are
>sticking to 3.x as well.
Get a Mac!
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:06:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Effective Armour Management (was Norse God of Thunder)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Chris Lynch writes:
> I had a player once who wanted to build himself a suit of armour as a
> vehicle and pump the vast majority of his points into it.
> At the time I said "NO WAY!" as it far too munchkin-excessive for me (and I
> will usually let you do anything which isn't specifically banned in the
> rules)
The major problem with the vehicles rules is that it gets the 'automaton'
advantage, without paying triple cost for defenses. Aside from that, vehicles
tend not to be that horrible, though a vehicle simply doesn't work as a power
suit, because you really can't do most combat manuevers with one.
>
> However, when I was thinking about this one I realised how many problems
> this overcomes.
>
> 1:Damage to the armour. How many times have you seen Iron Man get hit by a
> really big blast of something and some of his systems not go offline or get
> damaged.
This is usually equivalent to either 'stunned' (if they go offline for a short
period) or 'unconscious' (if they stop working and take a while to restart).
> 2:Having more than one suit of armour. Iron Man at one point was
> maintaining his Standard Red/Gold armour, a suit of stealth armour, a suit
> of space armour and a suit of undersea armour. He also had a old spare suit
> which Rodey used to back him up when things got really rough.
Backup suits are a special effect. The multiple different suits would
represent multiform or a multipower.
>
> 3: Where the hell does he get all the points to build these damn suits
> anyway??? To build a realistic Iron Man clone you need far too many points
> to consider him a reasonable starters character. At least this way you have
> a decent head start if you are trying to do it all within 150 pts!
Iron man isn't a particularly reasonable starting character; most established
comic book characters aren't. If you take iron man when he started, with his
original suit, he's probably only about 200 points.
From: Dazzle489@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:28:03 -0400 (EDT)
cc: jdriscol@vt.edu
Subject: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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<< Several of my own Players have benefitted from HeroMaker. I've
gotten a phone call from one of them, he was using HM and wanted me to
explain something about it... It's helped them understand the game and
character mechanics, and especially how their characters are built.
>>
However, the one problem I have found is that it does allow you to break the
rules, and if the other champions players are also not too experienced it can
get confusing. But generally I have found it to be a great help in
understanding game mechanics....
.....now as to Fuzion.....hmm???
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 14 Oct 97 19:32:04 GMT
Subject: Tragic Tale of a Teenage
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h > From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
h > Subject: Tragic Tale of a Teenage Dinosaur-Man
h > To: champ-l@omg.org
h >
h > I'm new at this Champions thing, so bear with me...
h > I'm planning on running a Scenario with a few of my friends. One
h > of the characters is an ancient Dinosaur-Man awakened from his
h > millenium slumber. He's very big, and weighs alot (15 points of
h > Growth and Density Increase [one level each], 0 END, Persistent,
h > Always on).
h > It dosen't make much sense that a character using Drain could
h > make him shrink (...unless the character has bought Drain with that
h > specific special effect [in which case I'd probally design El Shrinko
h > with Shrinking Useable Against Others]), since his size is pretty much
In all the years I've played Champions (15), I've never seen a
'Power Drain: Growth.' I think this is just one of those things
you don't have to worry about.
h > innate and absolute. Is there anything (aside from buying innane
h > levels of Growth and Density Increase with Difficult to Dispel) to repr
h > this 'innate-ness'? Perhaps a Power Modifier ('Innate Power')...
h > Should logic just shine through at that point? (The Sf/x is natural,
h > therefore therefore, a Drain wouldn't work- much in the same way a
h > Drian wouldn't work against an Elephant's Growth). Can you 'Drain'
Drains routinely work against 'innate' abilities (Characteristics for
instance) so that isn't an argument for the power being undrainable,
or for an advantage ('Innate Power'). The Dinosaur's power is bought
correctly - you may want to be careful how you buy any villain's
'Dr. Shrinker' type powers (Shrinking UAO? Drain: Growth?). If you
don't think a certain shrinker's F/X would work against 'innate' growth,
then they don't work against innate growth (either based on F/X alone,
or as a limitation, depending on how common 'innate' growth is).
h > Extra-Limb (Tail) away? (Under a similar logical assumption, Extra
h > Limb is a 'Special Power,' assumed to be functioning unless it is
h > turned
h > "off," which he couldn't do [would you let a player turn his 'Extra
h > Limb'
h > 'off'? Would he get any compensation for being unable to turn his
h > 'Limb'
h > on and off? Would it cost any more points to have an set of extra
h > arms that
h > could just appear?)
An extra limb that 'turns off' seems a little strange. I'd be inclined
to say that extra limbs are Persistant/Always on, by default, and a
character could take 'Costs End' if he wanted it otherwise (actually,
that would be odd with a 5 Apt power - I keep forgetting that END is
1/10 instead of 1/5, like it used to be). Actually, having an Extra
Limb you could turn off (effectively varry the number of limbs) might
be better represented as an advantage...
The old version of Extra Limb cost 10pts per limb, and each limb
gave you a +1 OCV in HTH combat (no END cost). The 4th Ed version
is little more than an F/X you pay 5 pts for (gives you any number
of limbs, but they have no defined game effect). I think the
4th Ed version could do with some expansion. :)
h > What about actual character creation? Racial Package Deal or
h > Elemental Control: Dino-Man Anatomy?
h > Tell me what you think...
h > Jason Sullivan
Racial Package Deals are for races you, the GM, place in your game.
If Dino-Man is a unique being, he doesn't get a racial package.
The EC may be questionable. You'll also find that a lot of things
that are a consequence of anatomy (like the extra limb) just don't
fit in an EC anyway.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58 * I am not a Rules Lawyer...I'm a Rules Activist.
From: PopTholian@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:04:42 -0400 (EDT)
cc: hero-l@omg.org
Subject: Korean Girls Built with Heromaker
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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In a message dated 10/11/97 3:06:55 AM, rook@infinex.com wrote:
>can figure out the full thing in a good hour. At the core of it's
development seems
>to be an effort by drunk GI's to get into the skirts of Korean girls.
Let me tell you from personal experience it works:
Seduction, 8 or less, +1 per common language known, +1 per drink over
the 2 minimum :)
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 14 Oct 97 21:37:06 GMT
Subject: The Tragic Tale of Norse
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Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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h >
h > Greetings Fellows,
h > I have a question as to the powers/Sf/x of items used in combat.
h > Norse God of Thunder has his Mystical Mallet that he can throw for
h > ridiculous ammounts of damage... and it returns.
h > What is this exactly? Is it a OAF (it can still be Grabbed or
h > hit with a ranged attack-- but it returns to his hand when thrown
h > upon his call... It can be deflected and caught by Armored Lativan
h > Sorcerer when he possess the Power Galatic, preventing the power from
h > being used because it travels along a physical path)? It is a
h > recoverable charge (easiest charge to recover in the world, if it is)?
OK, the easiest way to do this is to make the hammer an OAF. No charages,
no wierd limitations, the throwing and returning bit is just an F/X. So
it's no different than having an OAF laser gun. The hammer must be taken
away in melee, it can't be intercepted in flight, and it returns even
if missle deflected.
Recoverable charge is right out, since it doesn't represent the return
property.
h > What if there was a thrown object that returned along a certain
h > predetermined flight path, like the Dreadlocked Hunting Alien's
h > deadly Spinning Slash-Disk? (I'm thinking either a really limited TK,
h > a very weird Area of Effect along an ellipitical path, or perhaps even
h > flight and an AI bought just for the weapon [it's crazy, but it's a
h > hi-tech
h > 'smart' weapon). How do you deal with unusual mysical gizmos like
h > these?
h >
This could be handled with Autofire, or an Area effect defined as a
ring or elipse of hexes (with the selective or non-selective target
option, as appropriate).
h > The Mad Bomber (a.k.a Grenado) has a bandoleer of grenades. He
h > can throw them, or just drom 'em where they lie. The throwing aspect
h > is muscle powered (using his STR to throw it...). What are the
h > limitations?
You'd want to buy an apropriate ranged attack KEX or whatever depending
on the type of grenade. Limitations would be: OAF -1, Charges, and
'Range limited to throwing distance' -1/4 (no range is a -1/2). You
might also want to take a Delay limitation or Triggered advantage
to represent the fuse.
h > Weapons: OAF, Independent, 1 Recoverable Charge (I don't think this
h > applies-- the recoverable part :> ). How would you work this out in a
Independent is a bad idea. This means that if you lose the focus the
point you put into it are *gone*
h > Heroic Campagin if they were 'special' grenedes? How would you work
h > this out in a Superheroic campagin? What other powers/Sf/x can you
h > see a Grenade having (Flash, from the explosion, most probally).
Usually, you want to buy a single power, it's just simpler that way.
Yes, a frag grenade might also deafen people nearby, but that level
of realism isn't always nescisary or desirable.
h > ...and what if Grenado decides to let the entire bandoleer of 15
h > grenades go 'boom' at once?
He's going to have to buy it somehow... probably Autofire. This would
cause a bunch of explosions in the target hex, and others scattered
about nearby. The other alternative - if he has a Multipower of
grenades - is to have an additional slot for setting the whole thing
off (big Explosion, and limit that it uses up all remaining charges
in all the other slots).
h > back to Norse God of Thunder... The Mystcial Mallet returns to
h > his hand.
h > Does he take damage? What if he had a Gauntlet that prevented damage
No.
h > Yet again, I stand before you, clueless. Tell me what you think
h > is
h > truest to the Champion system, works the best in game mehanics, or
h > just comes
h > out to be an unusually weird, but suprisingly workable twist.
h >
h > Jason 'Ooops! Sorry!!'
h > Sullivan
h >
h >
h > ---
h > * Origin: Usenet:Fidonet: Red October Gateway (1:143/241.0)
___
* OFFLINE 1.58 * I am not a Rules Lawyer...I'm a Rules Activist.
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:51:38 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
PopTholian@aol.com wrote:
>
> >currently still actively resisting continuing pressure to upgrade to
> >Win'95. I also know a few people who don't like '95 either, and are
> >sticking to 3.x as well.
>
> Get a Mac!
But it's the Mac-system-clone aspect of win'95 that turns me off! I
like the simpler, more kludgy feel of 3.x in conjunction with DOS.
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:56:29 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: The Tragic Tale of Norse God of Thunder and The Mad Bomber
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Captain Spith wrote:
>
> Robert A. West wrote:
>
> > an Obvious Semi-Accessible Focus: OSF(-3/4)?
>
> That's splitting hairs a bit too fine for my taste. A focus should
> be either Accessable or InAccessable. Considering how often a character
> with a suit of Power Armour defined as OIF is *actually* without the
> armour (in most games), it's asking a lot to expect a GM to have too
> many levels of 'accessibility' for focii.
True enough. You are correct about the potential for abuse. I was
really thinking about OAFs that are, in practice, not that accessible,
such as buying Clinging to hold onto a weapon, or a focus that can be
used at range, so that it must be grabbed, then carried off.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:19:10 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: No-Win Scenarios [Re: GMing Question #1]
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Trevor Barrie wrote:
>
> On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Robert A. West wrote:
>
> > have to blow them up to prevent it. It may be the first case
> > of justifiable genocide since Cro Magnon exterminated Neanderthal,
>
> How was this justifiable? I'm not suggesting we punish the descendants of
> the perpretrators or anything, but I'm curious what your reasoning is.
Well, since, as has been pointed out, this is *not* current
anthropological thinking, I was being a bit facetious in my choice.
Nevertheless, assume that it did happen for the sake of argument.
It is a widely held law of evolution that one has one species per niche,
and that any other situation is only temporary. If one species cannot
adapt to fill a new niche, the result must be extinction for one in the
long haul. Cro-Magnon (I think that is now a deprecated term, but
forget the more current one) and Neanderthal apparently coexisted for
some tens of thousands of years. This is reasonable, so long as each was
exploiting different resources and the population of each could be
supported by the available niche.
Tool-using hominids are capable of systematically hunting down and
killing animals that prey on them. We can assume that Cro-Magnon and
Neanderthal did this fairly well, and the population of each burgeoned.
At some point, the available niches were filled to capacity, and there
were no unpopulated areas into which to expand. Remember that hunting
and gathering require a *lot* of land per unit population.
Since the two species could not (by definition of species) interbreed,
there was no basis for cooperation. Eventually, the only way to open up
a new niche would be to force the present occupant out. Predators do
this in the wild all the time: lions kill leopard kits, hyenas kill lion
cubs, and so on. Chimpanzees prey on one another, and tribes of
chimpanzees fight over resources. Why would it be any different with the
two species in question? Where would a moral context come from that
would override an instinctive question of survival?
Survival is the first, and only, law of nature.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Korean Girls Built with Heromaker
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:01:12 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> In a message dated 10/11/97 3:06:55 AM, rook@infinex.com wrote:
> >can figure out the full thing in a good hour. At the core of it's
> development seems
> >to be an effort by drunk GI's to get into the skirts of Korean girls.
>
> Let me tell you from personal experience it works:
> Seduction, 8 or less, +1 per common language known, +1 per drink over
> the 2 minimum :)
>
Only when going after prostitudes.
I never cruised broadway for a $20 screw in the USA, and I didn't use
being in asia as an excuse to do it there either.
Though most American's I met did. And I often had to defend myself
in polite Korean society from accusations of being a John by default of my
nationality.
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Ablative Energy Blasts (Was: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:11:18 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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>
> Of course, you can break the rules WITHOUT Heromaker, too...
>
> Heromaker is basically meant to be used by people who are already
> acquainted with the Hero System. It's meant to be as flexible as the
> system itself is. What "rules" in particular is it letting you
> break? If it's stuff like using Ablative with an Energy Blast,
> there's technically no rule against that in the game, either; it just
> doesn't make much sense, and it doesn't limit the power, so it's not
> really worth any points. I presume they didn't want to compromise
>
Let's see, ablative is something I've never used, so is it basically
like it is in Mekton where you lose points of it each time it's hit. Normally
used on armor...
If so, well, perhaps each time Sun-Guy is hit by Darkness powers,
his Energy Blast gets weaker...
Or Battery-Dude has only so much power, each time he blasts someone,
his next blast is so much weaker...
I'm sure once I get home and look over it I'll be able to come up
with a justifiable use of the combination. :)
:)
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:57:55 +0000
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
Reply-to: ghoyle1@airmail.net
Priority: normal
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> At 10:41 PM 10/14/97 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
>
> [Massive SNIP]
>
> >In any event, I am sorry that you feel that all GMs who start their
> campaigns by
> >writing backgrounds and timelines are more interested in writing novels than
> >in GMing. I hope that you will become more open-minded about this at some
> time.
>
> <sigh> Oh, for Pete's sake. Yes, I'll fervently pray every night to become
> more open minded in this regard, if it makes you feel better. Silly me,
> wanting to give the players a stake in the timeline, by following the old
> writing adage, "Show, don't tell." Sheesh! This is obviously a matter of
> GM preference, and my way works just jim-dandy for me, and if coming up
> with timelines before the game starts works for you instead of discussing
> the feel and general history with the players, well, then, run with it,
> Robert!
For me, developing a timeline is a useful tool, but shouldn't
straitjacket the characters or the GM. I tend to develop timelines
before the campaign starts, but only up to the point that they are
necessary. For example, in most superhero campaigns, it's important
to know if there are any other supers, and probably when they
appeared (at least in general, say pre-WWII, the 1970s, ancient
Greece, whatever). That would go on a timeline.
There's lots of information that should come up during the course of
play, or because a GMs scenario needs to establish some kind of
historical background. That would go into the timeline later.
I don't think every little detail about the whole history of
superheroes should be determined from the outset; thgis does tend to
stifle creativity among players. But using a timeline for keeping
track of important information can be crucial.
Guy
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:04:54 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Effective Armour Management (was Norse God of Thunder)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Chris Lynch wrote:
>
>
> 1:Damage to the armour. How many times have you seen Iron Man get hit by a
> really big blast of something and some of his systems not go offline or get
> damaged. If you have your armour Only in Hero ID then you can effecttivly
> build a suit of armour that will work at it's peak capacity until it falls
> apart.
Don't forget that
Any focus that provides defenses to the character is
automatically hit by any attack that hits the character.
[Description of Focus, p. 106].
I recall one character who bought his resistant defenses as OIF Fragile.
Requiescat In Pace!
> 2:Having more than one suit of armour. Iron Man at one point was maintaining
> his Standard Red/Gold armour, a suit of stealth armour, a suit of space
> armour and a suit of undersea armour. He also had a old spare suit that
> Rodey used to back him up when things got really rough. It's a lot easier to
> simulate this with a couple of vehicles than with a set of "Only when in
> Stealth/Space/Undersea armours" disads and those expensive "usuable by
> others" for the ones you are not using.
Hmmm...in no particular order...
You don't need to buy "Usable by Others" with a Universal Focus. That's
what makes it universal.
The Spare Armor should be bought by the follower Rodey.
For the multiple suits that are not usable all at once, first write them up
individually, as if they were the only suit, using about 2/3 of the real
points available for suit powers.
Second, buy all powers that are common to all suits, along with the EC and
the major MP Reserve with a -1/4 limitation, which you can justify according
to taste.
- Variable Limitation: choice of OIF <==my choice
- Limited Power: Multiple OIFs
- Only in Hero ID.
Also, slots in the MP and EC that are common to all suits take the same
limitation.
Third, Slots that occur in only one suit take an additional Extra Time
limitation for however long it takes to change suits, with a x1/2 for time
used only to start the power. So long as MP points are committed to that
power, it is "in use" and can be used freely.
Fourth, powers that are used by only one suit, including any secondary
Multipowers, should be examined to see if they can be combined in a
multipower, which should take Var Lim and Extra Time as indicated above. I
would be generous in allowing powers normally prohibited from an MP into an
MP of this type.
Fifth, any powers that cannot be fit into one of the above categories (such
as powers in an EC that are only usable in one suit) should be taken OIF;
however, if there are several such powers in each suit, it will be
point-efficient to place them all into the special multipower above.
Sixth, point-adjust, since the character is going to be over or under the
available real point total slightly.
Or, you could just make an Armor VPP, with two control costs, one to
represent reconfiguration by changing armor, and the second to allow instant
reconfiguration of those powers that would normally be represented by a
multipower.
>
> 3: Where the hell does he get all the points to build these damn suits
> anyway??? To build a realistic Iron Man clone you need far too many points
> to consider him a reasonable starters character. At least this way you have
> a decent head start if you are trying to do it all within 150 pts!
Look at the very early (hard-suit) Iron Man, and I think that you will have
a doable 250-pt character. The current one has a *lot* of XP!
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Chris Lynch\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 97 00:08:41
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Effective Armour Management (was Norse God of Thunder)
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On Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:00:48 +0100, Chris Lynch wrote:
>2:Having more than one suit of armour. Iron Man at one point was maintaining
>his Standard Red/Gold armour, a suit of stealth armour, a suit of space
>armour and a suit of undersea armour. He also had a old spare suit which
>Rodey used to back him up when things got really rough. It's a lot easier to
>simulate this with a couple of vehicles than with a set of "Only when in
>Stealth/Space/Undersea armours" disads and those expensive "usuable by
>others" for the ones you are not using.
Why not have a Iron Man Suit Multipower?
X-Sender: shelley@mail.mactyre.net
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:20:07 -0700
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
Cc: champ-l@omg.org, hero-l@omg.org
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At 10:36 AM 10/14/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote:
> I look at Shelley's G3 universe online and I have a pretty good idea
>that Nymph would not fit it. Her world shows that Super's are not public
Idols.
> Unfortunatly, I don't know why this is, or when it happened.
Luckily the players do -- it happened in game. =)
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
www.mactyre.net
Your children will see the stars.
--Robert A. Heinlein
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:26:21 +0000
Subject: Re: Korean Girls Built with Heromaker
Reply-to: ghoyle1@airmail.net
Priority: normal
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<imo> You know, I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out so far that
this topic's in pretty bad taste. </imo>
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 97 00:27:40
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: THe Tragic Tale of Holy Ground
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On Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:09:24 -0500 (EST), ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> Vampire Killer B and Doktor Von Helmsley are both vampire hunters.
>Vampire Killer B has a holy sword. Doktor Von Helmsley has the power of
>faith.
> Now, how would you work the Sf/x of a holy item, like B's sword?
Give vampires a Vulnerability to Holy weapons (2xStun & Body), or make
the sword +3d6K, Only vs Evil
>What about blessing an object, or an area, as 'sacred ground,' or holding
>a vampire at bay with a cross,
The Vampire has a Physical Limitation: cannot enter holy ground, cannot
approach anyone holding warding object.
In the Fantasy Hero books, the first is modelled as a 3d6
Susceptibility to Holy Ground.
> or actually burning the blood sucker with holy water?
Susceptibility to holy water.
>What if you wanted to 'bless' weapons?
Transform works well (Note that weapon gains DF: Holy Aura). This also
works for holy sites
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:49:15 -0700
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Disadvantage enforcement...
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I have somewhat of a problem with disadds and my playing group.
For some background: Until a few months ago, my group played
nothing but AD&D, and had for nearly 8 years. I, extremely bored
with that game, and completely enamored of a game system that I
had recently picked up, decided that I would start a Champions
campaign.
But my players, used to playing the chivalrous knight or the wise
mage, weren't sure what to do with a new concept: Disadvantages.
They understood Hunteds all right, and DNPCs too. Even
Vulnerabilities were easy.
Where both they and I had a problem was with Psych Limitations.
How much was something worth? Why was A worth less than B? What
happens if I go against my Limit? Etc.
So here's my question: Has anyone expanded on the Psychological
Limitation rules? Possibly even extended the list of common
limits which was in the BBB? How do GURPS disadds compare
price-wise to Hero?
Any takers?
Richard
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:52:06 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Nonstandard Deviations
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At 11:43 PM 10/13/97 -0500, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>At 02:57 PM 10/10/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> I was, and I'm always bothered when a published character (or other
>>"entity") deviates appreciably from the standard rules. An occasional
>>variance for an unusual situation is one thing, but this (along with
>>providing a "free point" for characters' primary Professional Skills in
>>Champions of the North by applying the Everyman Skill point toward it) only
>>confuses matters.
>
>If you read the section on Everyman skills, they seem to fall into two
>groups: "shadow" skills that represent 'default use' skills (like Deduction
>or Climbing), and 'freebie' abilities (the AK, PS, and Language) which seem
>to be "real" points in the same sense as the 10s-in=all-CHAR. Therefore,
>it's possible this wasn't a deviation, but another of those hidden
>feature-not-a-bug bits in the HERO rules.
That would be my assumption, except that this is the only book in which
I've noticed this being done.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:05:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Captain Spith wrote:
> PopTholian@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > >currently still actively resisting continuing pressure to upgrade to
> > >Win'95. I also know a few people who don't like '95 either, and are
> > >sticking to 3.x as well.
> >
> > Get a Mac!
>
> But it's the Mac-system-clone aspect of win'95 that turns me off! I
> like the simpler, more kludgy feel of 3.x in conjunction with DOS.
And people wonde rwhy I prefer to stick with my Mac...
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:08:23 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Ablative Energy Blasts (Was: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?)
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At 04:11 PM 10/14/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote:
>> Heromaker is basically meant to be used by people who are already
>> acquainted with the Hero System. It's meant to be as flexible as the
>> system itself is. What "rules" in particular is it letting you
>> break? If it's stuff like using Ablative with an Energy Blast,
>> there's technically no rule against that in the game, either; it just
>> doesn't make much sense, and it doesn't limit the power, so it's not
>> really worth any points.
>
> Let's see, ablative is something I've never used, so is it basically
>like it is in Mekton where you lose points of it each time it's hit. Normally
>used on armor...
> If so, well, perhaps each time Sun-Guy is hit by Darkness powers,
>his Energy Blast gets weaker...
>
> Or Battery-Dude has only so much power, each time he blasts someone,
>his next blast is so much weaker...
Well, the way I'd have it work is kinda like overheating from use. The
first time the character fires the blast, it works normally; the second
time, it gets a 15-; the third time, 14-; and so on. If it doesn't work,
then it doesn't "heat up," so the Activation Roll doesn't go down, but any
Charges, END, Expendable Foci, and such would still be used.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:09:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: THe Tragic Tale of Holy Ground
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On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> Vampire Killer B and Doktor Von Helmsley are both vampire hunters.
> Vampire Killer B has a holy sword. Doktor Von Helmsley has the power of
> faith.
> Now, how would you work the Sf/x of a holy item, like B's sword?
> What about blessing an object, or an area, as 'sacred ground,' or holding
> a vampire at bay with a cross, or actually burning the blood sucker
> with holy water?
The SFX is just that, SFX. What determines the special powers of a holy
sword are the *disadvantages* of 'unholy' creatures (like vampires).
Susceptabilites, Vulnerabilties and Physcial Limitations are all good for
defining what happens when the undead run across a holy object.
Blessing an object should be a Transform, a holy aura should be Change
Enviroment, holding the vampire at bay would be Phys Lim on the part of
the vampire. Holy Water could be some from of RKA with the limitation
"Only vs undead".
> I have my own take on everything _but_ the sacred ground (Change
> Enviornment?). I read something about holy ground under Independant...
> What if you wanted to 'bless' weapons?
Transformation Attack (minor).
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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***************************************************************************
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:16:32 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Effective Armour Management (was Norse God of Thunder)
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At 07:00 PM 10/14/97 +0100, Chris Lynch wrote:
>I had a player once who wanted to build himself a suit of armour as a
>vehicle and pump the vast majority of his points into it.
>At the time I said "NO WAY!" as it far too munchkin-excessive for me (and I
>will usually let you do anything which isn't specifically banned in the
>rules)
>
>However, when I was thinking about this one I realised how many problems
>this overcomes.
>
>1:Damage to the armour. How many times have you seen Iron Man get hit by a
>really big blast of something and some of his systems not go offline or get
>damaged. If you have your armour Only in Hero ID then you can effecttivly
>build a suit of armour that will work at it's peak capacity until it falls
>apart.
Sean Fannon's rules for the Battlesuit/Cybernetic Limitation handles
this very effectively. They appear on his website, or in Issue 11 of
HeroZine.
>2:Having more than one suit of armour. Iron Man at one point was maintaining
>his Standard Red/Gold armour, a suit of stealth armour, a suit of space
>armour and a suit of undersea armour. He also had a old spare suit which
>Rodey used to back him up when things got really rough. It's a lot easier to
>simulate this with a couple of vehicles than with a set of "Only when in
>Stealth/Space/Undersea armours" disads and those expensive "usuable by
>others" for the ones you are not using.
I think somewhere in one of the published books there's a suggestion
that this type of thing can be done with Multiform. A character that has
more than one "super" form, whether they're all the same type or different,
could buy a Multiform; a Powered Armor Multiform could be bought with Extra
Time (to represent the time it takes to get into and out of the Armor).
Thus, the character's main form could be the basic character with all of
the Multiforms, and the other forms could represent him in each of the
different suits of armor (perhaps with different Vulnerabilities and such).
>3: Where the hell does he get all the points to build these damn suits
>anyway??? To build a realistic Iron Man clone you need far too many points
>to consider him a reasonable starters character. At least this way you have
>a decent head start if you are trying to do it all within 150 pts!
Whether you're using OIF, the Battlesuit Limitation, or some other
method, a powered armor character is often the most powerful on the team
combat-wise. One of the old Adventurer's Club magazines had a combat
rating system, and this system bore out that statement; in fact, a
powered-armor character I'd built with the intent of him being relatively
wimpy actually turned out to be the toughest guy on the team!
>So, its far to points efficient, but it works.
>After all, if you take his armour away (or give it a good sticking) then he
>stops getting the benefits..........
Again, this is true regardless of method.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:49:57 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified)
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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>Are you now agreeing with me that it is a meta-rule that a Champions
>character sheet must be independent of state history, or are you
>disagreeing that your rule on multiforms violates this meta-rule? Are
>you disagreeing that violating the meta-rule is a bad thing? I am not
>sure how to take your comment.
>
>Theorem: if your rules are followed on constructing multiforms, then the
>legal configurations of powers are not solely determined by the number of
>character points available.
This is true. Depending on how you do things, characters could end up with
different power levels on the same number of points. That's not a bug,
that's a feature of the HERO System, where there is often 'a better way'.
>Proof of existence by construction:
>
>A is a 250 point character who buys a 100-pt multiform at the start of
>play, earns 50 XP and increases the multiform to 250 points.
>
>B is a 250 point character who does a shapeshifting workaround to
>multiform. After earning 20 XP, he has a radiation accident and converts
>to a 200-pt multiform. With part of his next 30 XP he buys the multiform
>up to 250 pts.
>
>C is a 250 point character who does a shapeshifting workaround, and
>postpones his radiation accident until he has earned 50 XP.
>
>All three, A, B and C are now 300-pt characters.
>All three have now spent 50 points on Multiform.
>A's multiform has 100 base, no disads and 150 XP.
>B's multiform has 100 base, 100 disads and 50 XP.
>C's multiform has 100 base, 150 disads and no XP.
>
>In fact, there are 51 mathematically distinguishable cases that result in
>the same base-character point totals and the same number of points spent
>on multiform, and the distinction is solely when and how the character
>had his radiation accident. Since part of an NPC bonus is experience,
>and part is a substitute for the sort of point-compression that PCs do,
>the situation becomes even more complex.
Nod, nod. It's a complicated system, HERO. I suppose you confused me with
earlier comments - you may not be able to tell how a certain character got
the way he currently is, just from his current character sheet. But that's
only really relevant for PCs, as you normally don't care about
point-accounting as much with NPCs, and starting PCs have to follow normal,
as-is construction.
>> >Under the basic rules, a person with 20 BODY who is reduced to 0 BODY
>> >will bleed to death in four minutes, which is really a very short time
>> >for help to arrive if your world does not involve teleporters.
>>
>> ??? Your point being? A 10 BODY wound is pretty impressive - like taking a
>> shotgun blast to the chest! Or having an arm ripped off!
>
>In both the real world and in fiction, characters sometimes hold on for
>extended times, even days, after receiving such extreme wounds.
Obviously, they stopped bleeding (see the Bleeding rules, pg. 165).
>You continue to misunderstand me. I am not primarily talking about PCs
>here. I am concerned about situations in which the players are trying to
>heal NPCs whose conditions are not easily described in terms of simple
>BODY totals.
I don't misunderstand. I already said "wing it". How did he get wounded?
That'll key you to what kind of wounds he's got...
>> >(2) Should a system have a quantifiable way for a GM to describe
>> >dismemberment or disfigurement when it is dramatically appropriate?
>> >Answer, IMHO, yes.
>>
>> IMHO, no, it isn't necessary. There are literally _dozens_ of systems that
>> don't and they still work fine.
>
>And for lots of them there have been articles and/or supplements with
>recommendations on who to cover the unusual cases without just being
>capricious.
I thought a lot before saying this, but I'll say it anyway, and hope you
don't take offense where none is intended: They're a crutch for the
unimaginative. I know, you can take that to extreme and say "Well, Mr.
Creative, why don't you go play free-form diceless roleplaying if you're so
good??" I'm not 'that good', but I do think that overdependance on charts
and tables and the like will _hurt_ your creativity in the long run.
Sometimes it's possible to get too caught up in simulating reality that you
lose sight of the fact that roleplaying is an escape from reality :-).
>If you prefer caprice, that is your privilege. I suspect
>that we are coming from such different places on this discussion that it
>has become pointless.
Perhaps. Super-precise systems annoy me, I prefer a higher degree of
abstraction in favour of elegance. I prefer HERO, Silhouette, and Feng Shui
to Rolemaster or Pheonix Command. If somebody gets hurt, I'd rather come up
with his wounds on the spot than pull out charts and start cross-referencing
<shudder>.
On another note, HERO does have a hit location chart. If somebody takes BODY
and you really want to know what happened, roll on that table! It'll tell
you where the shot landed! Then you can say "Poor Billy took 12 BODY to his
right arm. Looks like he'll be called 'Lefty' from now on...", because, from
the Disabling rules, that just took off Billy's arm (he only had 10 BODY to
begin with).
To wit: are the disabling rules, combined with the hit location chart, and
knowing the nature of an attack, not specific enough for you?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:56:25 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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John and Ron Prins wrote:
>
> >> I think it's the wrong construct to use; I'd go with a Shapeshift
> >
> >Oh, bother! I suppose that you are trying to be helpful, but I am
> >interested in discussing a troubling aspect of multiform, not finding a
> >work-around for a particular character. . .
>
> All of which can be worked around!
And which IMHO clutters up the character sheet with a lot of extraneous
limitations and notes. Change the example to a normal whose body was
inhabited by the dying spirit of an alien warrior, but who can only
transform into warrior form under restricted circumstances. I hope
that *this* meets your criteria for a Multiform. Since the Multiform
must be the human form, which has many fewer points, we run into the
paradoxical situation that the less often the powerful form is available,
the more real points are used by the Multiform power, and therefore
fewer points are available for the power form.
>
> >If the "no state memory" rule is not true, then there must be characters
> >that are achievable by a radiation accident that are not achievable
> >without one, or vice-versa, or both.
>
> Huh? You keep track of Real Points. The point total of a PC only changes
> through gained XP. Looking at the point totals of base points, disads, and
> XP will always tell you how much the PC costs...
Are you now agreeing with me that it is a meta-rule that a Champions
character sheet must be independent of state history, or are you
disagreeing that your rule on multiforms violates this meta-rule? Are
you disagreeing that violating the meta-rule is a bad thing? I am not
sure how to take your comment.
Theorem: if your rules are followed on constructing multiforms, then the
legal configurations of powers are not solely determined by the number of
character points available.
Proof of existence by construction:
A is a 250 point character who buys a 100-pt multiform at the start of
play, earns 50 XP and increases the multiform to 250 points.
B is a 250 point character who does a shapeshifting workaround to
multiform. After earning 20 XP, he has a radiation accident and converts
to a 200-pt multiform. With part of his next 30 XP he buys the multiform
up to 250 pts.
C is a 250 point character who does a shapeshifting workaround, and
postpones his radiation accident until he has earned 50 XP.
All three, A, B and C are now 300-pt characters.
All three have now spent 50 points on Multiform.
A's multiform has 100 base, no disads and 150 XP.
B's multiform has 100 base, 100 disads and 50 XP.
C's multiform has 100 base, 150 disads and no XP.
In fact, there are 51 mathematically distinguishable cases that result in
the same base-character point totals and the same number of points spent
on multiform, and the distinction is solely when and how the character
had his radiation accident. Since part of an NPC bonus is experience,
and part is a substitute for the sort of point-compression that PCs do,
the situation becomes even more complex.
Quod erat demonstrandum.
> >Under the basic rules, a person with 20 BODY who is reduced to 0 BODY
> >will bleed to death in four minutes, which is really a very short time
> >for help to arrive if your world does not involve teleporters.
>
> ??? Your point being? A 10 BODY wound is pretty impressive - like taking a
> shotgun blast to the chest! Or having an arm ripped off!
In both the real world and in fiction, characters sometimes hold on for
extended times, even days, after receiving such extreme wounds. One can,
of course, hand-wave this, and it appears that you prefer to do so. I
prefer to have some way to return to the objective and quantifiable.
This is a valid difference of taste, and it is a stated objective of Hero
to provide the GM with means to suit various tastes and circumstances.
>
> If [dismembered or dead PCs are] a regular occurance [you]
> . . .
> need that Regen: Useable By Others, and shouldn't be bothered by the speed
> at which the PCs are back in action.
You continue to misunderstand me. I am not primarily talking about PCs
here. I am concerned about situations in which the players are trying to
heal NPCs whose conditions are not easily described in terms of simple
BODY totals.
The reason I mandated Extra Time on Regeneration Usable by Others is that
some players noted that they could ignore most injury to bystanders in
the expectation that Tanith would be able to fully cure any normal in
five minutes (=25 BODY if no extra time). I am more than happy to see
regen used on PCs.
>
> >(2) Should a system have a quantifiable way for a GM to describe
> >dismemberment or disfigurement when it is dramatically appropriate?
> >Answer, IMHO, yes.
>
> IMHO, no, it isn't necessary. There are literally _dozens_ of systems that
> don't and they still work fine.
And for lots of them there have been articles and/or supplements with
recommendations on who to cover the unusual cases without just being
capricious. If you prefer caprice, that is your privilege. I suspect
that we are coming from such different places on this discussion that it
has become pointless.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
> -John comments on Feng Shui
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> John D. Prins
> jprins@interhop.net
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 02:39:30 +0000
From: David Cooper <raven@castles.com>
Reply-To: raven@castles.com
Organization: Raventronics
Subject: Powwow
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Hello all
You can get powwow at http://www.tribal.com/powwow/
--
"Look, mentally I'm older than Lincoln, emotionally
I'm six years old, physically I look like I'm in my
twenties, my hormones are going top speed, and I'm
something evolved from a slug evolved into something
evolved from an ape. And YOU got the nerve to say
YOU'RE confused?!?"
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:57:51 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Korean Girls Built with Heromaker
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Brian Wong wrote:
>
> > >to be an effort by drunk GI's to get into the skirts of Korean girls.
> >
> > Let me tell you from personal experience it works:
> > Seduction, 8 or less, +1 per common language known, +1 per drink over
> > the 2 minimum :)
Limited by Wealth(-1/4)
> >
> Only when going after prostitudes.
> I never cruised broadway for a $20 screw in the USA, and I didn't use
> being in asia as an excuse to do it there either.
>
> Though most American's I met did. And I often had to defend myself
> in polite Korean society from accusations of being a John by default of my
> nationality.
That seems odd, as I understand that the biggest customers of the local
"hostesses" in East Asia are the Japanese, Korean and, to a lesser
extent, Chinese businessman. The Japanese sex-tour business is
apparently legendary.
Of course, being far from home is seen by many as an excuse. I
decline to believe that this is uniquely American in any way, shape or
form.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
X-Sender: scm@mail.aci.net
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:54:26 -0700
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 10:41 PM 10/14/97 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
[Massive SNIP]
>In any event, I am sorry that you feel that all GMs who start their
campaigns by
>writing backgrounds and timelines are more interested in writing novels than
>in GMing. I hope that you will become more open-minded about this at some
time.
<sigh> Oh, for Pete's sake. Yes, I'll fervently pray every night to become
more open minded in this regard, if it makes you feel better. Silly me,
wanting to give the players a stake in the timeline, by following the old
writing adage, "Show, don't tell." Sheesh! This is obviously a matter of
GM preference, and my way works just jim-dandy for me, and if coming up
with timelines before the game starts works for you instead of discussing
the feel and general history with the players, well, then, run with it,
Robert!
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
www.mactyre.net
Your children will see the stars.
--Robert A. Heinlein
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:44:49 -0700
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On Tuesday, October 14, 1997 7:31 PM, John and Ron Prins wrote:
<snip>
>To wit: are the disabling rules, combined with the hit location
chart, and
>knowing the nature of an attack, not specific enough for you?
Not for what he wants, and I understand his point.
If I have a character who is severely hospitalized, a simple Aid will
allow the character to recover in seconds. If I have a character who
is so severely wounded that he will die in a few hours without a
hospital, then in the Hero system, he can be saved with a Paramedic
roll, or by special powers, or not at all. What's worse, no matter
what rules I use, he will be dead in minutes, probably only seconds.
In real life, dying people often live long enough for a paramedic team
to reach them, or even for days. In Hero, no ambulance would ever get
there in time. To be even sillier, if they did arrive in time, they
either fail their paramedic roll, and he dies before he reaches the
hospital, or they succeed, and the doctors are unnecessary- all he
needs is rest.
True, you can just make up what happens, and ignore the rules.
Unfortunately, this leaves you open to rules lawyers ("What do you
mean my Aid spell can't save him? The rules say it does!"), and forces
you to wing it even if you don't want to.
What I would prefer is optional rules for something other than "He'll
bleed to death in 8 turns, unless someone helps him." At the very
least, I would like more "At the GMs option" to shut up the rules
lawyers.
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:19:05 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: New Powers Plug-In (Or, I'm Impatient Enough Not To Wait)
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At 09:55 AM 10/15/97 -0500, Jason A. Dour wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>(NOTE: This has been cross-posted to both the Champs/HERO and the FUZION
> mailing lists for purposes of getting as much feedback as possible.
> Before you berate me for posting a primarily FUZION question to the
> HERO list, realize I came here asking for your expertise.)
But my expertise is in HERO, which means I'm not part of the Fuzion target
audience (nudge nudge, wink wink).
>My goal for this FUZION plug-in is simple: match HERO4 wherever possible
>when it comes to power creation. C:NM:A took us a step closer with Adders
>and Limiters...what few of them there were. Now, my plan is to continue
>that trend with the rest of the HERO4 power creation system. This may not
>be ideal, and I may not keep it forever. What I need right now is a
>flexible and robust power creation system a la HERO4, without having to
>switch to the "Divide HERO4 By 5" atrocity. Whatever revisions and
>enhancements come later are less important.
I was under the impression that there already existed a system for using
HERO Advantages and Limitations: that each (+/-)1/4 of Power Modifier
translated into +/-1 Power Point. Thus, declaring a power "OAF" reduces its
cost by 4 points, making a power Sticky adds 2 to the cost, etc.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:41:02 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
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Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote:
>
> I consider timelines *before* the game starts to be unnecessary.
Well, so far we disagree strongly. Good start!
> . . . When I enter a game with a
> meticulously structured history and timeline, I get the feeling from the GM
> that he'd rather be dictating a novel than running a roleplaying game --
> and which has always proven to be the case in those games. Personally, I
> like the players to have much more of an influence.
It has been my experience that, when a player enters a campaign expecting the
worst, he or she almost always leaves saying, "See! I was right!"
When I am a player, I don't expect, absent time travel, to influence major world
events prior to Day 1 of the campaign. Of course, with time travel, the
timeline is mutable anyway. Events *after* Day 1 are, of course, very much in
the players' hands.
>
> At 11:22 AM 10/13/97 -0700, Rook wrote:
> > After making it up, you write down when it happened, thus a timeline is
> >born.Do you know when super's began to appear in your world? Why?
> > In your world, the public hates paranormals, why is this? How did it
> >happen? What event's ahve occured because of it?
>
> Right, and these are things which the players have a vague understanding of
> in the beginning, and which get more clearly defined in their game, not
> something I pass out when they show up at my house.
Well, I suppose that it depends on the players and the campaign. As a player, I
prefer to see a lot of the background worked out at or near the start in most
types of campaign. As a GM, I find that my players ask detailed questions about
history and background. If I haven't worked stuff out carefully, then I end up
contradicting myself.
In one campaign in which I was a player, our party destroyed an interdimensional
villain and, unwittingly, changed history dating back a century. When we got
back, the world was *very* different. Our characters spent much of the next two
runs finding out the history of this alternate timeline, and comparing it to the
timeline we knew. My character, as a British subject, was extremely interested
in the history of the Empire and the Royal Family. To my delight, the GM had
actually thought of this, and we had some enjoyable roleplaying.
Of course, there are some types of campaign where this is not necessary, and
like anything else, it can be overdone. It is also important to distinguish
between the timeline that players see, which can be quite general, and the one
that the GM sees, which contains the real story, at least as the GM understands
it this week.
> >> When, for example, the heroine Firehawk showed . . . it was just a matter
> >> of telling them her public record and moving on from there.
> > Her public record is a piece of the timeline...
>
> But say I decide two months after I draft the timeline that I don't want
> Firehawk around. . .
Whoa! I hope you like the view from outside that window! Please come back
inside! :-)
I distinguish between the GM's private timeline (which is definitive, and can be
changed freely at any time) and the public timeline (which may contain untrue
statements that are generally believed, and that cannot be changed without
attracting the notice of the players, and therefore of the PCs).
Only things that are *important* to the GM's understanding of the campaign
should go on the GM's timeline, and only things that would be noticed by the PCs
should go on the public timeline. Of course, all PC adventures belong on the
public timeline, unless your players have secrets from one another.
If Firehawk was not involved in something really important, then why was it on
the timeline? If it was important enough to be on your timeline, then your
decision that Firehawk "no longer fits" is either a decision that the events
didn't happen, or that they were done by someone else. If Firehawk's exploits
were so well known as to be on the public timeline, then it is messy to delete
Firehawk, but it can be done.
- Firehawk is a cover story for some other super.
- Firehawk died or retired shortly after the event.
- The event never happened, but people think it did.
- A time traveller deleted Firehawk, and only the PCs remember.
- Ignore Chekhov's Law, and just don't have Firehawk show up.
Each of these decisions, except the last may inspire a scenario, or not. For
that matter, if all else fails, just declare that you made a blunder and correct
the timeline, omitting Firehawk. People should understand.
> But my time's been wasted, period. And this would hold true
Unless Firehawk was originally intended to be the crux of the campaign, you
shouldn't have spent more than five minutes on her.
11/9/79 Firehawk thwarts an attack on President Carter by Iranian
Super Agents.
11/20/79 Firehawk is invited to form a Secret Service Super Team.
5/15/83 Firehawk leaves the Super Secret Service for undisclosed
reasons. GM Note: Reagan was simply "cleaning house" of
the last Carter appointees, but Firehawk was humiliated,
and has refused public service ever since.
That took less than five minutes.
> with other things. Say I've written in my timeline of the world that no
> paranormals existed before 1950 -- but then I'm given Protector's
> background (a guy who went back to 1939 and was part of an official team).
First, if this is the first run, there is nothing wrong with amending the
timeline on the spot. There is also nothing wrong with soliciting PC origins
in advance so that they can be incorporated into the timeline.
If you have an existing campaign with that in the timeline, then no player
should give you that background without *some* idea of how to make it fit. It
passes my credulity that the player could not have come up with an equally
interesting origin that fit into an existing timeline. But let's suppose that
the player *really* likes that origin story.
When you stated "no paranormals before 1950," why did you decide that? My guess
is that you didn't want to change the history of World War II to include Supers.
If that is the important feature of the timeline that must be preserved, kick
the matter back to the player: explain why there was a super-team in 1939, but
you didn't appear in World War II, and why most history books don't include you.
If the explanation satisfies you, there is nothing wrong with revising your
private timeline to read accordingly:
1936 Protector is the first superhero.
1939 Protector and others form the Vindicators.
1941 The Vindicators are sent on a secret mission to destroy a suspected
Nazi Super-Team. All are missing, presumed dead, but no Nazi supers
appear during the war, to much relief. After some editorials comparing
Paranormals to the Master Race, it is decided to keep all reports of
paranormal activity secret until after the war. The Vindicators are
largely forgotten.
1950 Eaglehawk, the first post-war, publicly acknowledged paranormal appears.
Most people think of this as the first appearance of paranormals.
1997 A new Superhero, Protector, appears, claiming to be the same as the
original Protector of 1939. This claim is widely disbelieved.
The players can now roleplay "learning" something about the history of the
campaign world, and events are conserved.
Of course, not every campaign needs a timeline. If you follow the thesis that
supers don't change society very much, and that they are just a perturbation on
history, then a timeline is probably an unnecessary waste.
I happen to think that having supers around would alter society greatly, and
that these changes are likely to be important to the players. Accordingly, I
need to think about this issue from very early on, and a timeline is a good tool
to work with. It is, however, only a tool.
In any event, I am sorry that you feel that all GMs who start their campaigns by
writing backgrounds and timelines are more interested in writing novels than
in GMing. I hope that you will become more open-minded about this at some time.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:02:29 -0700
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
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At 11:57 PM 10/14/97 +0000, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>I don't think every little detail about the whole history of
>superheroes should be determined from the outset; thgis does tend to
>stifle creativity among players. But using a timeline for keeping
>track of important information can be crucial.
Ah, I see there is a moderate among us! =) I see what you're saying, Guy
-- makes perfect sense. I think one reason I don't worry about writing
things down anymore is that I game with people I really know well. It's
enough for me to say, "The public looks on paranormals with suspicion" and
leave it at that, because they know me well enough to know that it's only a
matter of time before a relevant plot pops up which explores things in
depth. If people ask me questions about specifics (what was the role of
paranormals during the Korean Conflict?), then I'll answer them (and make a
mental note). Also, the players are aware, I think, of the potential for
collective story building, and they share in the creation process. I love
that! It's what makes me think I'm doing my job. Players often have much
better ideas about plots and about histories -- and I'd be a fool not to
capitalize on it.
But back to the timelines: I'm a very seat-of-the-pants style GM. This
timeline discussion is happening at an interesting point for me, mainly
because I have been feeling very bogged down with details in my AI Inc.
PBEM game -- I'm resolving a plot which started in another of my PBEM
games, and of course I end up checking details, back and forth and back and
forth, while I'm trying to respond to turns. For wanting to be flexible,
I'm very, very serious about maintaining internal consistency, and I'm
starting to resent it slightly, I think. Better this, though, than the
e-mails from lurkers demanding I resolve the plot! <grin>
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
www.mactyre.net
Your children will see the stars.
--Robert A. Heinlein
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:11:05 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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Trevor Barrie wrote:
>
> On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Robert A. West wrote:
>
> > ==================================================================
> > Desolid vs NNDs:
> >
> > A desolid character is immune to all attacks, including NNDs, except for
> > the listed special effect and for attacks with Affects Desolid. The
> > rules are clear on this.
>
> Odd; my copy of the rules doesn't even mention the idea of a "listed
> special effect" (singular) to which the character is vulnerable. What it
> does say is that there has to be a reasonably common _group_ of attacks
> which will affect the character. (Emphasis mine, of course.) However,
And how do you form such groups? In almost every case of Desolid that
comes to mind, such groups are defined by special effect. Perhaps "Armor
Piercing Physical Attacks" or "Energy Attacks with an Odd Number of Dice"
are valid groups under the rules, but I am having a hard time envisioning
the special effect of the Desolid that would justify either choice.
Special Effect of Desolid Special Effect(s) of attacks
Cloud of Electrons Electromagnetic
Time Warp Gravitational, Transdimensional
Mist Fire; Wind attacks at 1/2
Magical Phase-out Magical.
Astral Any attack on physical body
OK, so I found an example of a non-special-effect group: transdimensional
attacks. All the rest are defined by special effect.
>
> It seems straightforward to me that, in the latter case, Desolid would
> _not_ protect from the effect. I certainly wouldn't allow Desolid to
> protect a character from a Susceptibility for which they gained points, so
> why should it protect from an "everyman" Susc?
I see no reason that most susceptibilities would affect most desolid
characters. In some cases, there might be a "disadvantage that is not a
disadvantage" issue. I certainly would discuss any planned exceptions
with the player beforehand.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
From: Peppy0083@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 02:19:48 -0400 (EDT)
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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:35:25 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Re: Korean Girls Built with Heromaker
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>> Let me tell you from personal experience it works:
>> Seduction, 8 or less, +1 per common language known, +1 per drink over
>> the 2 minimum :)
Gee, wow... that's heroic! Let's not hope our misguided heroes engage
in any sort of carnal activity. Having sex with someone who is intoxicated
might be grounds for a court case where the individual who was drunk
complied solely because their judgement was impared, which could possibly
cause our wacky heroes to be charged with rape!
Ick... not four color. For some strange reason, it reminds me of
"Watchmen."
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:35:16 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Disadvantage enforcement...
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Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote:
>
> I have somewhat of a problem with disadds and my playing group.
>
> For some background: Until a few months ago, my group played
> nothing but AD&D, and had for nearly 8 years.
Well, when you die, St. Peter will just pass you on...you've already
served your time in Purgatory.
> Where both they and I had a problem was with Psych Limitations.
> How much was something worth? Why was A worth less than B? What
> happens if I go against my Limit? Etc.
General Concepts:
1. If A is less likely to come up in actual play, A is worth less.
2. If A is more easily avoided, A is worth less.
3. If A is less likely to interfere with optimal play, A is worth less.
4. The GM can and should adjust the points of disadvantages to reflect
how they affect actual play.
The first concept is generally the hardest to understand.
A hates cats. B hates mutants. Although cats are more common in the
world than mutants, mutants come up more often in play, so A is worth
less than B. Hatred of orcs is irrelevant if orcs don't exist.
Most new players try to pick disadvantages that are worth a lot of points
but that won't affect their characters. I passionately hate tapioca.
This is pointless, literally. Disadvantages that are not going to be
disadvantages in actual play are not worth any points.
The second concept is straightforward in the book:
5 points if the character can always deal rationally with it. A
character with this level of acrophobia will try hard to find tactics
that avoid rooftops, but will probably merely shudder if forced onto one.
10 points if the character must make an EGO roll to deal rationally with
it. A character with this level of acrophobia would be unable to go up
onto the roof if he fails the EGO roll.
15 points if the character cannot overcome it, except perhaps in a moment
of extreme heroism. Watch the film Vertigo.
Some GMs will allow 20 points for a character whose entire life revolves
around the Psych Lim.
The third concept is really another way of looking at the first. A Psych
Lim to hate injustice will often come up in play, but it is unlikely to
interfere with a hero in a typical campaign where heroes rarely need to
compromise with evil. Such campaigns are often called "four color" from
the printing process used for color comic books. On the other hand, a
code against killing can be very inconvenient tactically, even if it is
heroic.
The fourth concept is an enforcement mechanism as well as an adjustment
mechanism. If all the cats die in an alien plague, a hatred of cats is
now irrelevant, and another disadvantage needs to be found: perhaps an
irrational love of aliens.
If a player forgets his Psych Lim, the GM can remind him and require
an action in keeping with it, or an EGO roll, as appropriate. If the
player keeps "forgetting", the GM should take those points away from the
character and not give them back until the player starts role-playing the
disadvantage, or chooses another one that the GM feels is more likely to
be played properly. As a result, the character will temporarily lose
some powers.
I hope this helps.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Comments: Authenticated sender is <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca>
From: "Vance Scott" <vances@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:09:13 +0000
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
Reply-to: vances@sympatico.ca
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> When I was planning my Hudson Hawks campaign, I discussed with the
> players major events, but both they and I found it much easier to make
> things up as we went along
A time line shouldn't be to constraining. It is intended as a GM,
and player aid, not a muzzle on creativity. It's perfectly ok to add
or make changes to your time line as it evolves over campaign. A
fictional time line shouldn't be written in stone, it should
be written on paper with a pencil. Feel free to use your eraser.
> I didn't feel locked into a rigid view of the universe (back
> then), and one of the main reasons why I strongly considered *not* using
> the Golden Hawks Universe (though I acquiesced to player opinion) when
> planning my current FTF game was because I have the ponderous weight of
> four campaigns that I feel I have to be consistent with when I run. Now, I
> can't use X team because the Hawks beat 'em up or have Armstrong show up
> because of that wacky "Armstrong Debacle" plot from way back when.
> I don't think most players care about timelines -- mine certainly don't,
> and I do have a high opinion of their ability --
The fact that your players wanted to play in the Golden Hawks
Universe indicates to me the players did want a time line, and a cast
of characters they were familiar with.
> and I wonder why GMs feel it's necessary.
A time line isn't necessary. It's supposed to be a useful reference
for the GM, and players. I feel a time line will help me add depth to
my campaign. The players can be introduced to the campaign world
via a rough narrative instead of an essay, or a creating it on the
fly.
> -- I'd rather see the GM put work into the plots and the villains
> than a detailed history.
Perhaps you prefer an episodal campaign where the events of one
scenario don't have much bearing on following ones. Personally I like
the added depth of a serial. If you are trying to run a serial
campaign a time line may make your job easier instead of difficult.
> History (and I say this as a person getting her BA in history in December)
> is all well and good, but really, the emphasis on the game should be, IMHO,
> on the present and not the past. Timelines force things -- let the players
> dictate the history and shape of the universe.
As a GameMaster I find it boring or discouraging to play in a game
where I don't like the player characters, or the world. For me it
is self defeating to allow the players to define a campaign world,
and history I don't like. The players wants, and wishes should be
considered during the creation process, but it's the GM that must be
satisfied. I'm the one doing the work it's up to me to define the world.
The creation process seldom works well in commitee, believe me I've
tried.
> Anyway, there's been a ton of discussion about this recently, both here and
> on #herochat, and I must say, Matthew and I have been shaking our heads
> over it. =)
Well, the " Time Lines for Campaign Worlds" thread has had only 13
posts according to my last count. I can't speak for Herochat as I'm
not necessarily online when you are. I find most of the posts useful.
I started this thread to get a diversity of opinion to help in the
construction of my time line. I was sure that some of the readers oin
this mail list would provide insights that wouldn't occur to me. I'm
happy with the responce I've gotten, and would like to thank everyone
for lending me a hand.
> Your children will see the stars.
> --Robert A. Heinlein
Heck, I can see the stars most nights. There must have been alot of
polution in Heinlein's neibourhood. ;)
Vance Scott
Vanquisher of all foes.
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:44:05 +1000
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Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
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At 10:01 PM 10/13/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Now, I have over 400 pages of *stuff* and I think site lurkers are probably
>more familiar with it than I am these days. I don't think most players
>care about timelines -- mine certainly don't, and I do have a high opinion
>of their ability -- and I wonder why GMs feel it's necessary. I mean, I
>guess I go into a game with a clear view of what I want to accomplish and
>what the world feels like, and I know enough about history to be internally
>consistent. I just see it as a waste of a GM's time -- I'd rather see the
>GM put work into the plots and the villains than a detailed history.
>History (and I say this as a person getting her BA in history in December)
>is all well and good, but really, the emphasis on the game should be, IMHO,
>on the present and not the past. Timelines force things -- let the players
>dictate the history and shape of the universe.
>
huh? what kind of nazi timelines you talkin' about? *lol*
my flowline thingie changes all the time, and it's probable the
most pondersome structure you can possibly use. AND i would most
tactfully suggest that the players in many games don't get a look
in at the best of times. Also, i don't think ne1 was suggesting
that people focus on the past, in fact a timeline is a good
way of writing stuff like that down so's you have it in some sort
of coherent structure *without* having to go over it Xbillion times. .
>Anyway, there's been a ton of discussion about this recently, both here and
>on #herochat, and I must say, Matthew and I have been shaking our heads
>over it. =)
>
a ton?? yeesh, how 'heavy' was mine and filk's little discussion?
>Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
>www.mactyre.net
>
>Your children will see the stars.
>--Robert A. Heinlein
>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:47:52 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
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Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote:
>
> <sigh> Oh, for Pete's sake. Yes, I'll fervently pray every night to become
> more open minded in this regard, if it makes you feel better. Silly me,
> wanting to give the players a stake in the timeline . . .
Look, I am not commenting on how you run your campaign. I am
responding to the first paragraph in your prior post, which sounds as if you go
into other GM's campaigns with a chip on your shoulder. That is not fair. It
would not be fair of me to go into your campaign, or Happyelf's, or anyone
else's with a chip on my shoulder, either. I try to enjoy every GM I encounter
on his or her own terms. Sometimes it is a pleasant and novel (err...no pun
intended) experience.
I hope that I misunderstood your post, and that you *do* give other GM's styles
a fair shake. If not, I recommend it.
Well, I am about over the flu now, so I can go back to work, and stop writing
so much on this silly list. :-)
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:54:52 +1000
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At 06:15 AM 10/14/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Brian,
>
>I believe you've mistaken my meaning. I consider timelines *before* the
>game starts to be unnecessary. Obviously, games create their own history
>-- or else I wouldn't have a 16 meg website! When I enter a game with a
>meticulously structured history and timeline, I get the feeling from the GM
>that he'd rather be dictating a novel than running a roleplaying game --
>and which has always proven to be the case in those games. Personally, I
>like the players to have much more of an influence.
>
>Right, and these are things which the players have a vague understanding of
>in the beginning, and which get more clearly defined in their game, not
>something I pass out when they show up at my house.
>
>
don't pass it out? uh-hu? what about fred the 100 year old wizard?
of mick angry of B.E.L.T? some pc have perks and stuff to represent
this knowlege. .. .
>> Her public record is a piece of the timeline...
>
>But say I decide two months after I draft the timeline that I don't want
>Firehawk around, or that she really doesn't fit anymore -- the game's moved
> in another direction. I'd feel locked into using her, or I'd be forced to
>ignore her. But my time's been wasted, period. And this would hold true
>with other things. Say I've written in my timeline of the world that no
>paranormals existed before 1950 -- but then I'm given Protector's
>background (a guy who went back to 1939 and was part of an official team).
>I'd have to reject it. But in this case: no timeline, no written record,
>and I could be flexible -- and it really added to the game.
>
what's stopping you from hitting the ol' delete key?
timelines aren't written in stone, and 'change' can
include 'alter' as well as 'add'. .
>Imposing the Armstrong debacle
>on a group is dry -- nothing like being in the room with Matthew, Marcus,
>and Jennifer arguing about it (which they still do whenever they get
>together) and it's completely meaningless to anyone else (except, I think,
>for the players who are in the room watching them lose all dignity and yell
>at each other!) You won't get strong feelings without letting them have a
>stake in it.
>
it's not meant to be a controversy, just a piece of info.
Another page in the past that the new pc's might stumble across. .
>> Timelines let you have consistancy without tripping over your own feet.
>
>Goodness, that's what keeping notes is all about! And don't tell me that's
>also contributing to the timeline -- of course it is. It's letting the
>*players* contribute to the timeline. That's the difference.
>
so who say's playerts can't contribute to the timeline before or during
the campaign? i usually set up the campaign with help from the players,
b4 they make pc's. .
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:01:46 +1000
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At 10:36 AM 10/14/97 -0700, you wrote:
<lots of stuff i agree with snipped>
> A Timeline servs as the framework. It's the glue that holds all the
>other elements together.
> It can be altered if needed, it's main purpose is not to read like a
>stale history book; but to show ongoing themes, highlight how the worlds
>paradigms play out, and ensure consistancy.
> There's a form in the BBB for setting up a campaign, it has you asign
>a value from 1 to 5 for various settings. This to me is not enough. So I do
>up a Timeline that reflects what I mean when I say "mostly 4 color, light
>hearted, but with strong moral-dramas".
> The Timeline gives specific events, either made up, or from my worlds
>actual play history. Events that reflect the themes I shoot for.
>
> I could continue, but I still have other email to get to this month. :)
>
>
i'd add that i've never used the 'campaign checklist' or whatever out
of the book, because i consider that to be restriction with no grounds
(player: "why can't my hero laugh at snoopy?"
gm: "because the campaign's too gritty!")
alls i do is set up points and let the pc's rip. I was also talking
about actual 'distant past' history, like the sinking of atlantis and
the exodus of various fantasy races, which is well laid out in a timeline.
>Rook
>Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
>herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
>Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
>
>Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
>http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
>
>Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
>http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
>
>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:13:35 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
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At 11:02 PM 10/14/97 -0700, you wrote:
<sinp> *l*
>
>But back to the timelines: I'm a very seat-of-the-pants style GM.
<snip>
actually, so am i, and i find improvisation requires some background. .
especially because when inventing plots on the fly i can tie events
into the bigger picture. Let's say my pc's are zooming around deep
space and i decide to throw in some alien baddies. . .*fake noises of
paper shuffling* ah-ha! here we are, a nice warlike alien race, and a
reason for them to be putting past the area. .. . touches like this
lend plausability to the game as a whole, and a feeling of genuine plot:
would the average space-hero like to either:
A) bust a nasty alien space ship like a balloon because they
get attacked by it, or
B) bust a nasty alien scoutship like a baloon, hence aerting
a small invasion, or even just putting the wind up the local tin-pot
space-nazi?
>Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
>www.mactyre.net
>
>Your children will see the stars.
>--Robert A. Heinlein
>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 02:18:19 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Grey Areas
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Here's another. The grey area of all grey areas.
The dreaded....TRANSFORM......aka the last refuge of a GM.
What's major? What's minor? Do cumulative transforms allow something to
be partially transformed?
Is a transform that gives additional character disadvantages a major or
minor Transform? How about one that aggravates an existing disadvantage?
Do the number of points in question matter?
Character origins often suggest that the character was hit by a transform
attack. If a character is going to do this in play, does it need to keep
a pool of unused points to pay for the temporary followers? A VPP to pay
for any new powers granted? If I transform a character of 250 points,
does that give me 250 points to put into a writeup for whatever I turned
it into?
I just know that someone is going to tell me that the GM should just wing
it. I can see it coming now....;-)
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 97 11:04:50 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Steve McGinness)
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
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I haven't participated in this thread mainly because I usually don't have
any time to do much of this extensive prep work prior to a game and just
keep notes to keep me consistant.
I glanced at someone mentioning what happens if things are different in a PC
that you don't want to change but it conflicts with the timeline??
Surely the success and attraction of things like the X-Files is precisely
that the "Truth" might not coincide with the agreed timeline for our world?? :-)
Stephen
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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:47:31 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
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At 02:14 PM 10/15/97 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>On 10/15/97 5:51 AM, Vance Scott wrote:
>
>>> Your children will see the stars.
>>> --Robert A. Heinlein
>
>>Heck, I can see the stars most nights. There must have been alot of
>>polution in Heinlein's neibourhood. ;)
>
>You might say that. If I recall correctly, that is from the story
>"Universe", and the characters lived inside a giant spaceship, and not
>only couldn't see out, but were not aware that there was anything
>strange about their world. While they never explained the details, it
>would appear that the crew were wiped out except for elementary school
>children, and these were their descendants.
>
>An interesting and unusual place for a Champions game. Hmmm.
>
Well, DC put out a Robin annual (during the "Tales of Dead Earth" year of
annuals) where the city was 'New Gotham' and the average person was a
serf/slave, ruled over by the Technocracy... There was a powered-armor
Batman who would attack the Joker-looking security bots, and was a hero to
some, a rebel to others. Turns out 'New Gotham' was the inside of a ship
whose autopilot got screwed with... the Technocracy arose because the
descendants of the original crew lost track that they were on a ship...
- Jerry
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 05:39:14 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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At 11:43 PM 10/13/97 -0500, Vox Ludator! wrote:
> Whether Knockback is based off "BODY rolled on the dice" or
> "BODY actually subtracted from the character's score".
Hm. I'd thought that this was clear enough, if not from the text then
from the examples under Knockback and the Combat Example on pages 210-212.
Does someone (whether on the list, or just known by someone on the list)
actually use BODY done after defenses for Knockback?
I'm going along with your "no debate" rule; I'm just surprised by this
one. (The others are indeed all unclear, even with the examples.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 05:49:34 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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At 10:54 AM 10/14/97 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>> I think it's the wrong construct to use; I'd go with a Shapeshift (one
form,
>>[remainder of discussion deleted]
>>
>>Oh, bother! I suppose that you are trying to be helpful, but I am
>>interested in discussing a troubling aspect of multiform, not finding a
>>work-around for a particular character. There are lots of reasons you
>>might *want* a multiform. Suppose that the Wolf form has lower INT than
>>the human and lacks most skills? Suppose they are two different
>>personalities altogether. What about the fact that the two forms should
>>have totally different disadvantages?
>
>All of which can be worked around! Buy back INT with a Limitation (yes, -4
>INT, Only During a Full Moon (-2), for a total buy-back of 1 point rather
>than 4). You could easily do the same thing with skills, or take the
>Phys.Lim.: Totally Savage in Were-form, making him unable to use most
>'human' skills, but still use Stealth, Shadowing, and whatever else.
>Different personalities is a separate issue - with GM permission, just buy X
>amount of Psych.Lims. for each form, and they only apply when in that
>particular form, and you only get X points for them, not 2 times X. And they
>shouldn't have 'totally different' disadvantages, especially if it's a
>classic werewolf.
All of this is much too complex for most games, and covers the ground
that Multiform is specifically designed to cover.
>I often find Multiform to be the wrong approach. Unless the two forms are
>incredibly different (as opposed to the werewolf example, where you're going
>from human to man-beast, really), a combination of Shapeshift and OIHID (or
>some other situational limitation) often works even better (with more
>available points!).
I'd call those two forms "incredibly different"! Just compare Jaguar's
two forms in the BBB (a quite similar situation) to see how different they
can be! I mean, what are you asking for -- a teenager who transforms into
a Trans Am?
>Check out most Champs 'official' writeups - you'll find Multiforms with
>'Hero/Villian Bonuses' (read: XP) sitting in their Multiforms and/or
>Duplicates. But for a PC, when he first buys the Multi/Dupe form, it doesn't
>have XP, b/c the PC has none. If you want to build FormX in the manner of a
>NPC (i.e. 'Hero Bonuses', not worrying about point totals), that's another
>matter.
Hero/Villain/Whatever Bonuses on published NPCs is basically an archaic
way of labelling the character's experience. In the case of Multiforms and
other "secondary entities," this can easily be done by just having the main
form put more points into Multiform.
>>(2) Should a system have a quantifiable way for a GM to describe
>>dismemberment or disfigurement when it is dramatically appropriate?
>>Answer, IMHO, yes.
>
>IMHO, no, it isn't necessary. There are literally _dozens_ of systems that
>don't and they still work fine. This is the sort of thing that belongs in a
>gritty game (like Millenium's End, which tells you _exactly_ where a bullet
>will hit someone via transparancy templates), but not HERO, which is really
>a heavily cinematic-based game. This is sort of like asking a set of
>vector-based flight mechanics for a Star Wars game :-).
My answer to this is yes, but it doesn't have to be highly detailed. In
Hero, one can lose an arm in some of the grittier games (my first
experience being when this happened to an NPC bandit in a Fantasy Hero
game), and other than bleeding (which is also covered in the system) that's
all the detail I need.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:53:16 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Powwow
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 12:52 PM 10/15/97 -0700, John Jerles wrote:
> Give me a break. Racial slurs are one thing, but to take a proud
>tradition and throw it out a window because a few Native Americans felt the
>need to grab media attention is ridiculous. If people's lives are so
>lacking in things to do that they feel the necessity to cry racism over the
>simplest of things, then they really need to take a look at the bigger
>picture and see that there are far more important matters in the world.
>The name of a piece of software means nothing, it's just a name that relays
>a mental picture of what the product does. If you don't like it, don't buy
>it. But don't waste my time by complaining about the 'Big Bad Software
>Companys' that don't care about the feelings of people. Show a little of
>the courage and the honor that the Native American fore-fathers had and get
>over it.
N-I-C-E post -- I'm sorry I had to clip so much of it for space purposes.
What gets me about this whole phenomena is ... if the Chiefs and Redskins
are 'racist' team names, am I supposed to go into a snit over the Vikings?
(He says, tongue firmly in cheek.)
--
Pinkish Swedish-Norwegian Agnostic, not WASP :]
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 06:17:22 -0700
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
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At 08:09 AM 10/15/97 +0000, Vance Scott wrote:
>The fact that your players wanted to play in the Golden Hawks
>Universe indicates to me the players did want a time line, and a cast
>of characters they were familiar with.
Vance, my players *defined* the Golden Hawks Universe. When I started with
the Hudson Hawks game -- the first one -- I had a vague sense of what I
wanted to accomplish and how I wanted to get there. The only thing I
defined beforehand was PRIMUS -- everything else came after. The darn thing
wasn't named, and certainly didn't have all this web stuff around. This is
what I said: "Hey, now that we're back in Reno I'm thinking about running
Champions on Friday nights. Thinking 400 points, 80 active. World's a lot
like this one -- paranormal powers pretty rare, not very four color, but
not Dark Champions, either. PRIMUS exists, with a few differences from CO."
The players asked questions relevant to the characters they were making up,
and we worked on things together. It was fun -- I thought about things
more specifically, and from there the whole thing took off. To anyone
who'd followed the PRIMUS site from when I first uploaded it (late March,
1996) to the site that I have today, they can attest to the fact that it
grew as my game grew -- and that includes background. As I thought of more
evil things that happened in the past and let my players discover them, the
more web pages started showing up. Heck, I remember when I couldn't even
upload the secret history of PRIMUS, because they'd see.
Maybe part of the misconception here is what I think of as defining games.
More than anything else, most of the website comes from the Hudson Hawks,
by scope of their activity. The other games have contributed some, but not
nearly as much as the HH -- and there was nothing defined when I started
that game.
The reason I have the site is because of the players -- not the players
because of the site.
>Perhaps you prefer an episodal campaign where the events of one
>scenario don't have much bearing on following ones. Personally I like
>the added depth of a serial. If you are trying to run a serial
>campaign a time line may make your job easier instead of difficult.
Hardly! What I do in my games, as I've now stated enough that I'm sure
everyone's quite sick of reading it, is let events take their course. My
games are highly serialized (to the point I'm scared I'll bore people) --
but I figure out what's important/interesting to the players in the game by
seeing what plot hooks they pick up on in the game. In game. After the
thing starts.
>As a GameMaster I find it boring or discouraging to play in a game
>where I don't like the player characters, or the world. For me it
>is self defeating to allow the players to define a campaign world,
>and history I don't like. The players wants, and wishes should be
>considered during the creation process, but it's the GM that must be
>satisfied. I'm the one doing the work it's up to me to define the world.
>The creation process seldom works well in commitee, believe me I've
>tried.
Um, OK, Vance. By letting the players help, I don't see how that can
possibly hurt the game -- for whom are you running the dang thing, anyway?
I don't know if I'd say I do it by committee, per se, but I've always
invited discussion and encouraged ideas from players about the game. If a
rules question comes up, I'll hear the different sides of the issue, make a
decision, explain why, and it stands. No argument. If someone has an idea
about the game, "Hey, Shell, I was thinking that it would be really cool if
in the history of PRIMUS X happened...." then I do the same thing.
I like my players enough to let them in my house and feed them every week,
they're all friends, and I trust their opinions, too. Is this a unique way
of handling situations as they come up in games? I have heard about (and
played in a few) games where the GM made all the decisions and wouldn't
even consider that kind of input, but I thought they were the exception.
>Well, the " Time Lines for Campaign Worlds" thread has had only 13
>posts according to my last count. I can't speak for Herochat as I'm
>not necessarily online when you are. I find most of the posts useful.
>I started this thread to get a diversity of opinion to help in the
>construction of my time line. I was sure that some of the readers oin
>this mail list would provide insights that wouldn't occur to me. I'm
>happy with the responce I've gotten, and would like to thank everyone
>for lending me a hand.
Sorry that you seem to consider this a personal attack -- anyone who knows
me also knows that I have my own way of doing things in games and that I'm
curious about other ways of working things. As I mentioned before -- this
is how I work my games. Appears to work just fine for me, but if you like
timelines beforehand, more power to you. Just wondering why, since I
don't. No need to get all excited-like or nuthin'. Many apologizes,
guys, if that wasn't obvious.
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
www.mactyre.net
Your children will see the stars.
--Robert A. Heinlein
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 06:38:09 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Korean Girls Built with Heromaker
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At 12:26 AM 10/15/97 +0000, Guy Hoyle wrote:
><imo> You know, I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out so far that
>this topic's in pretty bad taste. </imo>
I might have, except for three things: (1) The treatment is being kept
relatively genteel (about as much as it can be considering the subject
matter). (2) It's being kept at least on the fringe of being a Hero
discussion, with Hero mechanics as part of the topic. (3) I just got the
whole thread in two downloads, and what I had previously wasn't *quite*
enough to complain about; I was about to say something, but you beat me to
the punch.
---
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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:55:42 -0500 (EST)
From: "Jason A. Dour" <jad@bcc.louisville.edu>
Subject: New Powers Plug-In (Or, I'm Impatient Enough Not To Wait)
Comments: Getting paid to be a geek is cool...
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
(NOTE: This has been cross-posted to both the Champs/HERO and the FUZION
mailing lists for purposes of getting as much feedback as possible.
Before you berate me for posting a primarily FUZION question to the
HERO list, realize I came here asking for your expertise.)
Well, I've reached a point where the powers plug-in for C:NM just isn't
going to cut it anymore. I had hoped to wait it out with the current
plug-in until the enigmatic "Fuzion Power Workshop" book arrived. But,
since there's no word on that book at all, I've had to go forward on doing
my own plug-in... (Bruce...Steve: are we gonna see this book before or
after Bay City? Do you know? I'm dying here!)
My goal for this FUZION plug-in is simple: match HERO4 wherever possible
when it comes to power creation. C:NM:A took us a step closer with Adders
and Limiters...what few of them there were. Now, my plan is to continue
that trend with the rest of the HERO4 power creation system. This may not
be ideal, and I may not keep it forever. What I need right now is a
flexible and robust power creation system a la HERO4, without having to
switch to the "Divide HERO4 By 5" atrocity. Whatever revisions and
enhancements come later are less important.
I wanted to poll people on these lists for some particular information:
* What HERO4 Power Advantages have BIG problems, and what are the fixes?
* What HERO4 Power Limitations have BIG problems, and what are the fixes?
* What HERO4 Ads and Lims have you added to make power creation better?
I want to use all of this information to create a HERO4 Fuzion Power
Plug-In, to completely replace the current checklist plug-in. I'd greatly
appreciate any and all information, and your help will be duly noted in
the plug-in when it is written.
Thanks,
Jason
# Jason A. Dour <jad@bcc.louisville.edu> 1101
# Programmer Analyst II; Department of Radiation Oncology; Univ. of Lou.
# Finger for URLs, PGP public key, geek code, PJ Harvey info, et cetera.
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From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: Tragic Tale of a Lonely Archer
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:40:27 -0500
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I created an archer character using roughly the example in my copy of
the Champions Rules Book (4th Ed, 1st Printing).
I bought the bow as a separate focus that has the "Works at range"
advantage.
Why? Because when your bow breaks you'll want to be able to hit your
darkness arrow against the ground to trigger its area effect darkness
power.
Basicly, you use the bow to deliver the arrow to the the area/person to
be affected.
The powers rest in the arrows and breaking the bow doesn't change that.
I bought the arrows as a VPP with 32 charges and common limitations
of OAF, no range, no END, (and I forget what else) to make the arrows
very
difficult to use without some means to deliver them. See how they work
together?
Of course, my archer character had some gadgeteering skill.
This is necessary. Otherwise, he'd never be able to spend a few rounds
desperately trying to modify his Sonic Boom (Flash attack) arrow into a
sound based weapon to affect the Silencer's weaknesses to sound attacks.
Buy swinging yourself.The line doesn't confer swinging; it just supplies
the means.
Swinging won't work without some kind of line handy.
And 50" of swinging won't do you any good on a 10" line.
A 10" line will get you 5" of swinging or 10" of climbing.
But you have to have the skill yourself or risk falling off.
(Unless this is a magic rope?)
BOD and DEF of a swing line is the same as any rope.
The thicker the rope the bulkier and heavier.
If you use some form of thick nylon thread that can support 440 kg of
tension,
then you could support the weight of two characters.
Unless the rope is magic, it doesn't give climbing or add any bonus to
it.
Remember, climbing requires something to climb; that's all the rope
provides.
As far as other powers, a rope doesn't give any; it only provides a
means.
If your character doesn't have Martial Choke with Rope, too bad.
If your character knows how to give a Martial Choke hold and knows
how to use a rope as an instrument he may get a bonus to his choke hold.
If you stretch a rope across the street to trip someone,
that's creative use of a special effect; you just affected the
environment.
If the circumstances would dictate that someone trips, then they trip.
Tying someone up with rope takes time.
There are rules governing that in Danger International somewhere.
If you want to instantly or quickly entangle someone and/or hold them
longer than ordinary rope, buy an Bolo Entangler arrow.
Stretching probably wouldn't fit into the bow and arrow SFX.
Once the arrow leaves the bow, you have no control over it.
(Of course, you could buy remote control devices for your arrows.)
Once again, if your PCs can take a piece of rope and shoot it through
the open window of a helicopter, then they just altered the environment.
The helicopter is tethered by a flimsy piece of rope.
If your brick pulls to hard on the rope, either the rope breaks,
the helicopter breaks, or the helicopter comes down.
Bottom line. My advice:
Don't spend so much time trying to figure out the powers of a piece of
rope
when most of us can readily agree on its effects in certain
circumstances.
If a PC wants to do something on a regular basis,
find out what the effects are first. Usually they can be modeled fairly
simply.
-RICK
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:12:44 -0500
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Alright. Let's step back and look at this NCM disadvantage again.
According to HERO any characteristic bought as a power (through
advantages or limitations) is a Power for purposes of NCM.
That's the ruling. Why? Because NCM was meant to model being
a "normal" human.
Our strongest normal human strongmen only have a strength of 20.
Think about it. STR 20 means you can lift 4 guys who weigh 220 lbs.
That's almost a ton!
Now give that "normal" human an exo-skeleton and he could lift
anything the suit can lift. The STR is not his. It's the suit's.
But just because he can lift it with the suit on doesn't mean he
is breaking the NCM disadvantage.
If you magically gave him STR via an Aid spell, he would only get
half the STR points. Why? Because this power works on power
points, not on absolute STR points.
If we look at any power that supposedly "breaks" the NCM rule,
ask yourself if it works on power points or absolute points.
The NCM affects the cost in power points of an absolute point.
If a power grants 5 STR, then it is not affected by NCM.
If the same power grants 5 power points worth of STR, it does.
-RICK
P.S. If you want me to pull out my dusty old rule book, I will.
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:20:51 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Foci and Instant Change
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Due to some comments on this list last semester (most of which, I
believe, came from Michael Jones about some guy with both OIHID and OIF), I
let the player with the D&D type character have Instant Change into his
Armor (OIF) and Sword (OAF). The Instant Change was also bought on an OAF,
which meant that if someone else was holding the Foci and resisting, he
couldn't change (he would still change into the other Foci, if it were not
held by a resisting person).
Now, I have picked up Heroes for Hire #6 today. I guess this is a
bit of a spoiler, so if you haven't read it yet...
Anyway, the Black Knight has his Sword of Light and Shield of Knight
taken away from him (they behave like Foci). Then, when the Dramatically
Appropriate Time occurs, he Instant Changes to his normal ID, and then
Instant Changes right back, and now has all his Foci.
How would I model this?
- Jerry
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:21:44 -0500 (EST)
From: "Jason A. Dour" <jad@bcc.louisville.edu>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: New Powers Plug-In (Or, I'm Impatient Enough Not To Wait)
Comments: Getting paid to be a geek is cool...
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote:
> But my expertise is in HERO, which means I'm not part of the Fuzion target
> audience (nudge nudge, wink wink).
Your *HERO4* experience...seeing as how I'm altering HERO4 for use
with FUZION...
> I was under the impression that there already existed a system for using
> HERO Advantages and Limitations: that each (+/-)1/4 of Power Modifier
> translated into +/-1 Power Point. Thus, declaring a power "OAF" reduces its
> cost by 4 points, making a power Sticky adds 2 to the cost, etc.
That is the trend of the conversion, yes, and Bruce and Steve have
both said as much on the mailing lists. But it is nowhere in writing,
leaving Fuzion players to wait goodness only knows how long to get a
better creation system, or to buy a book for a different game that they
may never play. That's why this project exists.
My primary reason for posting was for feedback on the Ads and Lims
themselves...and what fixes or additions people have made for the HERO4
system. I'm not asking for help in the actual porting necessarily...I
just am asking for opinions and information regarding HERO4 mechanics.
Jason
# Jason A. Dour <jad@bcc.louisville.edu> 1101
# Programmer Analyst II; Department of Radiation Oncology; Univ. of Lou.
# Finger for URLs, PGP public key, geek code, PJ Harvey info, et cetera.
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X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:30:41 -0400
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: STR: (was: Heromaker: Who uses it?)
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>Our strongest normal human strongmen only have a strength of 20.
>Think about it. STR 20 means you can lift 4 guys who weigh 220 lbs.
>That's almost a ton!
It is almost -half- a ton. A ton is 2,000 lbs.
Scott
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Fw: Effective Armour Management (was Norse God of Thunder)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:46:50 +0100
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-----Original Message-----
From: Robert A. West <robtwest@erols.com>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: 15 October 1997 12:59
Subject: Re: Effective Armour Management (was Norse God of Thunder)
>Chris Lynch wrote:
>>
>>
>> 1:Damage to the armour. How many times have you seen Iron Man get hit by
a
>> really big blast of something and some of his systems not go offline or
get
>> damaged. If you have your armour Only in Hero ID then you can effecttivly
>> build a suit of armour that will work at it's peak capacity until it
falls
>> apart.
>
>Don't forget that
>
> Any focus that provides defenses to the character is
> automatically hit by any attack that hits the character.
Fair enough, I'd forgotten about Foci being breakable. You win that one!
>[Description of Focus, p. 106].
>
>I recall one character who bought his resistant defenses as OIF Fragile.
>Requiescat In Pace!
>
>> 2:Having more than one suit of armour. Iron Man at one point was
maintaining
>> his Standard Red/Gold armour, a suit of stealth armour, a suit of space
>> armour and a suit of undersea armour. He also had a old spare suit that
>> Rodey used to back him up when things got really rough. It's a lot easier
to
>> simulate this with a couple of vehicles than with a set of "Only when in
>> Stealth/Space/Undersea armours" disads and those expensive "usuable by
>> others" for the ones you are not using.
>
>Hmmm...in no particular order...
>
>You don't need to buy "Usable by Others" with a Universal Focus. That's
>what makes it universal.
>
>The Spare Armor should be bought by the follower Rodey.
>
>For the multiple suits that are not usable all at once, first write them up
>individually, as if they were the only suit, using about 2/3 of the real
>points available for suit powers.
>
>Second, buy all powers that are common to all suits, along with the EC and
>the major MP Reserve with a -1/4 limitation, which you can justify
according
>to taste.
>
> - Variable Limitation: choice of OIF <==my choice
> - Limited Power: Multiple OIFs
> - Only in Hero ID.
>
>Also, slots in the MP and EC that are common to all suits take the same
>limitation.
>
>Third, Slots that occur in only one suit take an additional Extra Time
>limitation for however long it takes to change suits, with a x1/2 for time
>used only to start the power. So long as MP points are committed to that
>power, it is "in use" and can be used freely.
>
>Fourth, powers that are used by only one suit, including any secondary
>Multipowers, should be examined to see if they can be combined in a
>multipower, which should take Var Lim and Extra Time as indicated above. I
>would be generous in allowing powers normally prohibited from an MP into an
>MP of this type.
>
>Fifth, any powers that cannot be fit into one of the above categories (such
>as powers in an EC that are only usable in one suit) should be taken OIF;
>however, if there are several such powers in each suit, it will be
>point-efficient to place them all into the special multipower above.
>
>Sixth, point-adjust, since the character is going to be over or under the
>available real point total slightly.
>
>Or, you could just make an Armor VPP, with two control costs, one to
>represent reconfiguration by changing armor, and the second to allow
instant
>reconfiguration of those powers that would normally be represented by a
>multipower.
>
I don't like using VPP for representing suits of armour. Although they would
obviously be customisable you are left in a bit of a no-win situation.
If you provide the pool with enough points to make the suits effective at
thier chosen task you open yourself to a lot of abuse by players. For
example: A big monster type thing with high defenses is attacking the city.
The players have two options: Do something innovative, creative and above
all intelligent to defeat the beast. Alternatively they can charge up their
powers and do thier best to minimise property damage and wait for Armour to
get from the lab with his OAF, Independant, 1 charge big gun of doom. He
only gets to fire it once.... but as it has about a squillion dice of RKA.
Goodbye big monster.
On the other hand if you limit the amount of points in the pool so that this
kind of thing is not effective then you end up with numerous suits of
armour.... but the difference??? Oh, now I see, this ones got IR sensors.
Good at night. But this one... ah... in suit radio and life support:Extreme
heat. Nice for those long hot summer patrols.....
>> 3: Where the hell does he get all the points to build these damn suits
>> anyway??? To build a realistic Iron Man clone you need far too many
points
>> to consider him a reasonable starters character. At least this way you
have
>> a decent head start if you are trying to do it all within 150 pts!
>
>Look at the very early (hard-suit) Iron Man, and I think that you will have
>a doable 250-pt character. The current one has a *lot* of XP!
Even with that amout of XP, four suits.. or that amount of power. How much
XP is Stan Lee giving out for trouncing the Mandarin again?
>
>
>--
><------------------------------------------------------->
>Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
>Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
>http://www.erols.com/robtwest
>
>
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:15:02 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Japanese Hero's Leaping Ability
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While trying to write up some Japanese manga/anime style heroes, I
ran into this problem. Often I have seen characters in this medium leap to
the side of a wall or somesuch, and stay suspended there until they had a
chance to leap again. Would this best be modeled by Superleap with Clinging
(only between own Phases, which I gave a -1/2), or Flight with a Limitation
(must end Movement touching an object for support, -?)?
Like I said, I went with Superleap/Clinging, because it also gave
the bonus Leaping for STR, and was easier to think of at the time...
- Jerry
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:17:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Tragic Tale of a Teenage
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> Drains routinely work against 'innate' abilities (Characteristics for
> instance) so that isn't an argument for the power being undrainable,
> or for an advantage ('Innate Power'). The Dinosaur's power is bought
> correctly - you may want to be careful how you buy any villain's
> 'Dr. Shrinker' type powers (Shrinking UAO? Drain: Growth?). If you
> don't think a certain shrinker's F/X would work against 'innate' growth,
> then they don't work against innate growth (either based on F/X alone,
> or as a limitation, depending on how common 'innate' growth is).
Yes. Allowing something to work against "innate abilities" opens
up a heck of a can of worms. For instance, a young child/baby is
represented with Shrinking to show decreased size. This is obviously
innate. However, would a drain of innate abilities suddenly make this
baby the size of an average adult?
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:21:38 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Powwow
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> You can get powwow at http://www.tribal.com/powwow/
That's assuming one wants to support a racist company that uses
onld sterotypes to sell its product, not to mention bastardizing what is a
cultural concept.
Thank you, but no thanks.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:32:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: New Powers Plug-In (Or, I'm Impatient Enough Not To Wait)
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> That is the trend of the conversion, yes, and Bruce and Steve have
> both said as much on the mailing lists. But it is nowhere in writing,
> leaving Fuzion players to wait goodness only knows how long to get a
> better creation system, or to buy a book for a different game that they
> may never play. That's why this project exists.
That seems to be the problem here. I'd really recommend an
investment into Heroth, even if you do eventually play Fuzion. It's a
rules system that works quite well with only a few problem areas. It's
easy to tell that its is a work over 10 years in the making. Fuzion,
OTOH, is a first edition product suffering from the first edition syndrome
-- too many holes to easily plug. I'd wait 'till second edition before
fully judging it.
-Tim Gilberg
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From: "Todd Hanson" <badtodd@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Powwow
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:09:50 PDT
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Tim Gilberg says:
>> You can get powwow at http://www.tribal.com/powwow/
>
> That's assuming one wants to support a racist company that uses
>onld sterotypes to sell its product, not to mention bastardizing what
is a
>cultural concept.
Umm.. Tim?
what do you find 'racist' about the word 'Powwow'? it is an actual
native american word, generally inferring a getting together, or
meeting. Nothing derogotory or racist there. Maybe its the word
'tribal' that upsets you?
Maybe before you jump to conclusions, you should actually LOOK at the
web page. Especially the part where they talk about who they are...
(ie. a group of native americans funded by native american groups
working to maintain the native american culture, etc)
Did you think 'injuns' don't use computers??
Todd
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 01:13:51 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Japanese Hero's Leaping Ability
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>> While trying to write up some Japanese manga/anime style heroes, I
>> ran into this problem. Often I have seen characters in this medium leap to
>> the side of a wall or somesuch, and stay suspended there until they had a
>> chance to leap again. Would this best be modeled by Superleap with Clinging
>> (only between own Phases, which I gave a -1/2), or Flight with a Limitation
>> (must end Movement touching an object for support, -?)?
>> Like I said, I went with Superleap/Clinging, because it also gave
>> the bonus Leaping for STR, and was easier to think of at the time...
>
>I usually use flight with limitations for this. Clinging doesn't allow
>the martial artist to land on places that should not support their weight,
>something I've I've seen in anime before. It's really just a matter of
>taste though.
>
Hmm. But what Limitations, and at what value?
maybe...
2(8) Flight: 4", x5 END Used to simulate his reguler (20 STR)
leaping ability
8(12) Flight: +6", must end Phase supported (-1/2)
This'd give him unlimited short flight, equal to his leaping (but would act
like a *huge* NCM). The extra 6" would give him the distance that I had in
mind... The differences are that he couldn't take the 2x NCM to take an
Extra Phase leaping. Unless there's some suggestion?
- Jerry
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:16:46 -0600
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unsubscribe
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Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 01:17:25 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Japanese Hero's Leaping Ability
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>I'd have to vote for the Superleap + Clinging combo. Limiting flight to
emulate other
>effects has always bothered me.
>
>I'm not quite sure I get the purpose of your (only between own Phases,
which I gave a
>-1/2) though - just what is this limitation doing?
>
It was to simulate him leaping, ending his leap on the *side* of a building,
and then, when he gets another action (Phase) he leaps off. But he couldn't
just hang there on his own Phase. Only between his Phase (hence, the
Limit). I wasn't sure about it myself, that's why I asked.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jjerles@pacificnet.net
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:52:29 -0700
From: John Jerles <jjerles@pacificnet.net>
Subject: Re: Powwow
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:21 PM 10/15/97 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>
>> You can get powwow at http://www.tribal.com/powwow/
>
>
> That's assuming one wants to support a racist company that uses
>onld sterotypes to sell its product, not to mention bastardizing what is a
>cultural concept.
>
> Thank you, but no thanks.
>
>
> -Tim Gilberg
Okay, I'm normally a quiet person on this list, but since Tim broached
the subject, I'm going to respond. I am part Cherokee and part Sioux and
part of just about everything else. Also, I tend to follow a style of
Native American religion.
This politically correctness kick that the world seems to be on is
getting a little out of hand. My high school (Where I graduated from in
81) has been called the 'Braves' for over 40 years. Now, some Native
Americans with a attitude has actually convinced the Los Angeles school
board to remove all the Native American team names from all the schools in
their area.
Racism is not giving a product a name that inspires respect and honor.
Racism is having your home burnt down, or your church blown up, or being
hung from a tree because of your color, or religion or sexual preference.
It's being spat upon or slandered in public. It's having your children
beaten because they are different. You don't seem to have a CLUE as to
what racism is. If you are of Native American heritage, and you take the
name of a product as offensive, write an intelligent letter to the
producers of that product. Don't cry racism, because all you do then is
dishoner those that truly experinced it.
Give me a break. Racial slurs are one thing, but to take a proud
tradition and throw it out a window because a few Native Americans felt the
need to grab media attention is ridiculous. If people's lives are so
lacking in things to do that they feel the necessity to cry racism over the
simplest of things, then they really need to take a look at the bigger
picture and see that there are far more important matters in the world.
The name of a piece of software means nothing, it's just a name that relays
a mental picture of what the product does. If you don't like it, don't buy
it. But don't waste my time by complaining about the 'Big Bad Software
Companys' that don't care about the feelings of people. Show a little of
the courage and the honor that the Native American fore-fathers had and get
over it.
Sorry to rant, but you really hit a sore spot.
X-Sender: wga@pop.cwru.edu
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:16:13 -0400
From: Will Austin <wga@po.cwru.edu>
Subject: Re: Powwow
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At 01:21 PM 10/15/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>> You can get powwow at http://www.tribal.com/powwow/
>
>
> That's assuming one wants to support a racist company that uses
>onld sterotypes to sell its product, not to mention bastardizing what is a
>cultural concept.
>
> Thank you, but no thanks.
Uh, why is Powwow racist?? Do you *know* anything about the organization,
any fact that would cause one to truly decry this organization, or are you
merely screaming in PC voice. . .??
============================================================================
Nomad
wga@po.cwru.edu
myrtth@geocities.com
"If you can't giggle, tickle, scream, laugh, run around the room naked,
pour liquer on each other
and lick it off, tie each other down, have whipped cream fights, or dance
and sing with each
other, then you are having sex too soon. . ."
============================================================================
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:14:11 -0700
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On 10/15/97 5:51 AM, Vance Scott wrote:
>> Your children will see the stars.
>> --Robert A. Heinlein
>Heck, I can see the stars most nights. There must have been alot of
>polution in Heinlein's neibourhood. ;)
You might say that. If I recall correctly, that is from the story
"Universe", and the characters lived inside a giant spaceship, and not
only couldn't see out, but were not aware that there was anything
strange about their world. While they never explained the details, it
would appear that the crew were wiped out except for elementary school
children, and these were their descendants.
An interesting and unusual place for a Champions game. Hmmm.
Filksinger
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:24:49 +0000
Subject: RE: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Reply-to: ghoyle1@airmail.net
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> Alright. Let's step back and look at this NCM disadvantage again.
> According to HERO any characteristic bought as a power (through
> advantages or limitations) is a Power for purposes of NCM.
> That's the ruling. Why? Because NCM was meant to model being
> a "normal" human.
> Our strongest normal human strongmen only have a strength of 20.
> Think about it. STR 20 means you can lift 4 guys who weigh 220 lbs.
> That's almost a ton!
That's not strictly true. You can still be a normal human being and
go over the NCM, at double the cost. 20 is a soft limit for STR, not
a hard one. This is so you can have characters like Schwarzenegger
or Tor Johnson.
> If you magically gave him STR via an Aid spell, he would only get
> half the STR points. Why? Because this power works on power
> points, not on absolute STR points.
This point has not been firmly established yet, unfortunately. It's
been done both ways in the published material, and there's no
specific reference to this in the BBB.
> P.S. If you want me to pull out my dusty old rule book, I will.
Maybe you'd better. I need some references on all this.
Guy
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:27:04 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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>
> On 10/15/97 5:51 AM, Vance Scott wrote:
>
> >> Your children will see the stars.
> >> --Robert A. Heinlein
>
> >Heck, I can see the stars most nights. There must have been alot of
> >polution in Heinlein's neibourhood. ;)
>
>
> You might say that. If I recall correctly, that is from the story
> "Universe", and the characters lived inside a giant spaceship, and not
> only couldn't see out, but were not aware that there was anything
> strange about their world. While they never explained the details, it
> would appear that the crew were wiped out except for elementary school
> children, and these were their descendants.
>
> An interesting and unusual place for a Champions game. Hmmm.
Now that would make an interesting feature on a Timeline. :)
You'd need a good Timeline to keep track of events that caused it, and
to make sure any clues you leak remain consistant with each other. :)
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 97 22:34:52
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
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On Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:20:51 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> Due to some comments on this list last semester (most of which, I
>believe, came from Michael Jones about some guy with both OIHID and OIF), I
>let the player with the D&D type character have Instant Change into his
>Armor (OIF) and Sword (OAF). The Instant Change was also bought on an OAF,
>which meant that if someone else was holding the Foci and resisting, he
>couldn't change (he would still change into the other Foci, if it were not
>held by a resisting person).
> Now, I have picked up Heroes for Hire #6 today. I guess this is a
>bit of a spoiler, so if you haven't read it yet...
> Anyway, the Black Knight has his Sword of Light and Shield of Knight
>taken away from him (they behave like Foci). Then, when the Dramatically
>Appropriate Time occurs, he Instant Changes to his normal ID, and then
>Instant Changes right back, and now has all his Foci.
> How would I model this?
Simple - a limitation that does limit, isn't a limitation. If physically taking them away
didn't rob him of the power then they aren't foci.
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: (was: Heromaker: Who uses it?)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:20:23 -0500
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> >Our strongest normal human strongmen only have a strength of 20.
> >Think about it. STR 20 means you can lift 4 guys who weigh 220 lbs.
> >That's almost a ton!
>
> It is almost -half- a ton. A ton is 2,000 lbs.
>
> Scott
>
Sheesh. I can't even do basic math now. 220 x 4 = 880 lbs. 44% of a
ton.
It's still just a wee bit more than I an bench press.
-RICK
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Poll for OS (fwd)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:20:27 -0400 (EDT)
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> h > From: "Mann, Wade" <WMann@Rogue.CC.OR.US>
> h > Subject: Poll for OS
> h > To: champ-l@omg.org
> h >
> h > I am currently developing some software that might be released through
> h > Hero Games. I am trying to figure out the platforms that I should
> h > support.
> h >
> h > How many of you are using win 3.x, win95/nt, and/or Mac?
> h >
> h > Any information received would be appreciated.
> h >
> h > Wade R. Mann
> h >
Linux rules, anything else is crap!
Actually, I use Windows NT too, but only when I have to.
But, then again, I'm a CS major, and therefore likely to
be strange and unusual in this respect.
-Eric (still trying to get adopted by Bill Gates)
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: GMing Question #1
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:59:51 -0500
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In a reply to part of my recent posts you wrote,
> On 10/10/97 4:29 PM, Rick Ryker wrote:
>
> >> Do you save the human race?
> >>
> >Hell yes! As I said before, a "no-brainer".
> >The life instinct for survival of the self is only superceded
> >by the life instinct for survival of the species.
> >
> >Going back to your case of the space aliens trying to land.
> >It would be criminal (against life's basic instincts) to side for the
> >aliens.
> >It would be criminal (against life's basic instincts) for the aliens
> to
> >side for you.
> >If their only hope for survival is to land on your planet. No
> brainer.
> >They are going to. You just try to stop them.
> >If the aliens trying to land is going to kill millions of people. No
> >brainer.
> >We're going to do everything in our power to stop them.
>
>
> Interesting. The decision for the survival of the last 800 aliens, on
> the part of the aliens, was declared evil by several of the others who
> previously replied. By extention of what they said, to save the last
> 800 humans at the cost of 1,000,000 aliens is also evil.
>
> Thus, the decision you call a "no brainer" was declared "evil" by
> others on this thread.
>
This is about philossophy and morality.
This is not about GMing. This is about real life.
Human life. Animal life. Alien life.
Evil is relative here.
For those humans who will die, the aliens are evil.
It doesn't matter if they are trying to survive.
Or if they are the last of their race.
On the other hand, for the aliens trying to land in order to survive,
those who would prevent them from landing are the evil ones,
for preventing them from preserving the lives of the last of their race.
The reason I said this is not a good choice for antimony
is because both sides are equally Evil and equally Good.
Which is which will be in the eyes of the survivors.
It is still a no-brainer for the one whose life hangs in the balance.
Or whose family, friends, relatives, colleagues, etc...do.
The only way a choice like you have postulated
would not be simple to make, would be
if the one making the decision had no stake in the choice.
Or if he had friends, family, relatives, colleagues, lovers, etc.
on both sides.
For instance, if you personally had to choose between aiding the North
or the South during the US civil war and you lived in Kentucky,
your Mama was from Alabama, and your Daddy was from Boston.
Or the North/South Vietnam/Korea.
You cannot experience antimony without having a really heavy
emotional involvement in both sides of the no-win situation.
When the choice is made,
(and it has to be made -- not making a choice is still a choice),
you have to live with the results, whether you could have or did
make a change in the outcome is irrelevant.
-RICK
X-Sender: scm@mail.aci.net
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:04:49 -0700
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 03:27 PM 10/15/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote:
>> An interesting and unusual place for a Champions game. Hmmm.
>
> Now that would make an interesting feature on a Timeline. :)
>You'd need a good Timeline to keep track of events that caused it, and
>to make sure any clues you leak remain consistant with each other. :)
LOL! Very nice, Brian!
There's also, BTW, "For the world is hollow, and I have touched the sky," a
very rare episode in which McCoy actually got the girl. =)
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
www.mactyre.net
Your children will see the stars.
--Robert A. Heinlein
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: No-Win Scenarios [Re: GMing Question #1]
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:23:49 -0500
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> ----------
> From: smcginn@csm.exeter.ac.uk[SMTP:smcginn@csm.exeter.ac.uk]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 1997 7:06 AM
> To: champ-l@omg.org
> Subject: Re: No-Win Scenarios [Re: GMing Question #1]
>
> At 03:01 AM 14/10/97 -0700, cptspith@com.teleport wrote:
> >Trevor Barrie wrote:
> >> How was this justifiable? I'm not suggesting we punish the
> descendants of
> >> the perpretrators or anything, but I'm curious what your reasoning
> is.
> >
> > As I interpret this,.....
>
> I think you have misinterpreted the actual question. I think Trevor
> was
> interested in the justifiability of the extermination of Neanderthal
> by
> Cro-Magnon, obviously your justification for exterminating the aliens
> is
> spot-on!! :-)
>
>
> Stephen McGinness
>
Well. If we are descended from Cro-Magnon,
and we aren't from Neanderthal, and we are here,
then we are the biological winners
and, therefore, Mother Nature says our forebears were right!
Nature plays the us versus them game all the time.
Fortunately for you and me, we are part of the us.
-RICK
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Fw: Effective Armour Management (was Norse God of Thunder)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 01:26:04 +0100
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One word: Expense.
-----Original Message-----
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org&> Chris Lynch
<chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
Date: 15 October 1997 09:44
Subject: Re: Effective Armour Management (was Norse God of Thunder)
>On Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:00:48 +0100, Chris Lynch wrote:
>
>>2:Having more than one suit of armour. Iron Man at one point was
maintaining
>>his Standard Red/Gold armour, a suit of stealth armour, a suit of space
>>armour and a suit of undersea armour. He also had a old spare suit which
>>Rodey used to back him up when things got really rough. It's a lot easier
to
>>simulate this with a couple of vehicles than with a set of "Only when in
>>Stealth/Space/Undersea armours" disads and those expensive "usuable by
>>others" for the ones you are not using.
>
>Why not have a Iron Man Suit Multipower?
>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:26:23 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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At 11:12 AM 10/15/97 -0500, Rick Ryker wrote:
>
>Alright. Let's step back and look at this NCM disadvantage again.
>According to HERO any characteristic bought as a power (through
>advantages or limitations) is a Power for purposes of NCM.
>That's the ruling. Why? Because NCM was meant to model being
>a "normal" human.
>Our strongest normal human strongmen only have a strength of 20.
>Think about it. STR 20 means you can lift 4 guys who weigh 220 lbs.
>That's almost a ton!
>Now give that "normal" human an exo-skeleton and he could lift
>anything the suit can lift. The STR is not his. It's the suit's.
>But just because he can lift it with the suit on doesn't mean he
>is breaking the NCM disadvantage.
>If you magically gave him STR via an Aid spell, he would only get
>half the STR points. Why? Because this power works on power
>points, not on absolute STR points.
>
>If we look at any power that supposedly "breaks" the NCM rule,
>ask yourself if it works on power points or absolute points.
>The NCM affects the cost in power points of an absolute point.
>If a power grants 5 STR, then it is not affected by NCM.
>If the same power grants 5 power points worth of STR, it does.
>
>-RICK
>
>P.S. If you want me to pull out my dusty old rule book, I will.
While I happen to agree with you on the above points, at least in
principle, I would appreciate a rulebook-based argument (if you'd pardon
the expression).
---
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From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at post.mail.demon.net
Subject: Re: Powwow
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 01:31:32 +0100
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Is that PsychLim: Paranoia (Common, Strong)
or is it PsychLim: Crys foul of anything on the grounds of racism
(V.Common,Total) with possibly an assoiated DF, Rep (14- naturally)?
Come on, do you really expect us to believe there is a dark plot behind the
naming of this product?
I suppose you also felt cheated when you went to see a Tarzan movie when
Cheeta turned out to be a monkey?
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim R. Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: 15 October 1997 08:19
Subject: Re: Powwow
>
>
>> You can get powwow at http://www.tribal.com/powwow/
>
>
> That's assuming one wants to support a racist company that uses
>onld sterotypes to sell its product, not to mention bastardizing what is a
>cultural concept.
>
> Thank you, but no thanks.
>
>
> -Tim Gilberg
>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:34:59 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: New Powers Plug-In (Or, I'm Impatient Enough Not To Wait)
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At 09:55 AM 10/15/97 -0500, Jason A. Dour wrote:
>Well, I've reached a point where the powers plug-in for C:NM just isn't
>going to cut it anymore. I had hoped to wait it out with the current
>plug-in until the enigmatic "Fuzion Power Workshop" book arrived. But,
>since there's no word on that book at all, I've had to go forward on doing
>my own plug-in... (Bruce...Steve: are we gonna see this book before or
>after Bay City? Do you know? I'm dying here!)
The last I heard, well after. My *impression* is summer, but that may
have been pushed back just as the release of Bay City was pushed back.
>I wanted to poll people on these lists for some particular information:
>
> * What HERO4 Power Advantages have BIG problems, and what are the fixes?
>
> * What HERO4 Power Limitations have BIG problems, and what are the fixes?
>
> * What HERO4 Ads and Lims have you added to make power creation better?
So I assume you want something that's specifically WrOnG with these
elements (like how Flash Defense is way to effective against Flashes), as
opposed to how they're written (like Linked), right?
The only problem I can think of offhand (other than the aforementioned
Flash problem) is Extra Limbs: 5 points can give you a potentially infinite
number of hands, if that's how many you want. The specific number of hands
a character has can make a difference in play, however, especially with
some of the new Martial Arts rules in The Ultimate Martial Artist.
The fixes I like:
Flash costs 5 points per 1d6, and each pip Flashes per *segment.*
Extra Limbs costs 5 points for +2 arms, 3 points for +2 tentacles, 3
points for +1 arm, 2 points for +1 tentacle or fully prehensile tail, or 1
point for a tail that is only "semiprehensile."
>I want to use all of this information to create a HERO4 Fuzion Power
>Plug-In, to completely replace the current checklist plug-in. I'd greatly
>appreciate any and all information, and your help will be duly noted in
>the plug-in when it is written.
Good look to ya! I'd like to see what results! :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:41:08 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Powwow
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At 12:52 PM 10/15/97 -0700, John Jerles wrote:
> This politically correctness kick that the world seems to be on is
>getting a little out of hand. My high school (Where I graduated from in
>81) has been called the 'Braves' for over 40 years. Now, some Native
>Americans with a attitude has actually convinced the Los Angeles school
>board to remove all the Native American team names from all the schools in
>their area.
What did they end up calling themselves? The Celtics? The Gladiators?
> Give me a break. Racial slurs are one thing, but to take a proud
>tradition and throw it out a window because a few Native Americans felt the
>need to grab media attention is ridiculous.
I'm with you. I see very little in the beratement of my Welsh cousins
(or much of anything else having to do with the Welsh, except for Tom
Jones, John Rhys-Davies, and the movie "The Man Who Went Up A Hill And Came
Down A Mountain"), but I too find the rampant cry of racism over every
little thing rather sickening.
Hey -- anyone want to run a Dark Champions game where the IRA bombs a
Boston Celtics game because of their insensitivity in using the name?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: Poll for OS
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:00:02 -0500
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> ----------
> From: Mann, Wade[SMTP:WMann@Rogue.CC.OR.US]
> Sent: Friday, October 10, 1997 6:43 PM
> To: champ-l@omg.org
> Subject: Poll for OS
>
> I am currently developing some software that might be released through
> Hero Games. I am trying to figure out the platforms that I should
> support.
>
> How many of you are using win 3.x, win95/nt, and/or Mac?
>
> Any information received would be appreciated.
>
> Wade R. Mann
>
Since I am typing on a company machine, let me give you
the official version. Windows 95, Windows NT 4.0 Server /
WorkStation and any other 32 bit OS Bill thinks we should be
programming for. (We're a Microsoft Solutions Provider.)
Personally: Win95, WinNT, DOS 6.22, Lynux (a little).
MAC? Not since I came back from Tokyo in '88.
-RICK
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 97 01:09:07
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Japanese Hero's Leaping Ability
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On Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:15:02 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> While trying to write up some Japanese manga/anime style heroes, I
>ran into this problem. Often I have seen characters in this medium leap to
>the side of a wall or somesuch, and stay suspended there until they had a
>chance to leap again. Would this best be modeled by Superleap with Clinging
>(only between own Phases, which I gave a -1/2), or Flight with a Limitation
>(must end Movement touching an object for support, -?)?
> Like I said, I went with Superleap/Clinging, because it also gave
>the bonus Leaping for STR, and was easier to think of at the time...
I'd have to vote for the Superleap + Clinging combo. Limiting flight to emulate other
effects has always bothered me.
I'm not quite sure I get the purpose of your (only between own Phases, which I gave a
-1/2) though - just what is this limitation doing?
-=>John D.
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Powwow
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:16:19 -0700
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On Wednesday, October 15, 1997 11:42 AM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> You can get powwow at http://www.tribal.com/powwow/
>
>
> That's assuming one wants to support a racist company that uses
>onld sterotypes to sell its product, not to mention bastardizing what
is a
>cultural concept.
>
> Thank you, but no thanks.
I'm afraid I don't understand you. What, exactly, to which you object?
I don't know what stereotype you refer to. I see nothing stereotypical
about either the site or the name. What stereotypical image is being
used?
Pow-wow is an actual American Indian word. If you wish to claim they
used it incorrectly, fine, but an incorrect use of a word is not
racism or stereotyping.
Pow-Wow is a cultural concept, and therefore shouldn't be used for
other purposes? Thus, I should be offended if someone refers to a
corporate raider as a "Viking", because some of my ancestors were
probably Vikings? Japanese roleplayers should be offended at "Ninja
Hero"?
To claim that we can use words and concepts from some cultures, but
not others, is offensive to me. It indicates an assumption that using
some cultures' concepts is complementary to the culture, but using
other cultures' concepts is automatically insulting to that culture.
It is assuming that dressing for Halloween as a Viking is
complimentary to Northern European culture, but dressing as an Apache
is insulting to American Indian culture. I don't like the implications
of that.
BTW, my wife is part American Indian, and finds the idea that naming
the software Powwow is insulting to American Indians rather silly. She
didn't say so outright, but the rolling eyes spoke volumes.
Filksinger
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:49:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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Subject: Re: Japanese Hero's Leaping Ability
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> While trying to write up some Japanese manga/anime style heroes, I
> ran into this problem. Often I have seen characters in this medium leap to
> the side of a wall or somesuch, and stay suspended there until they had a
> chance to leap again. Would this best be modeled by Superleap with Clinging
> (only between own Phases, which I gave a -1/2), or Flight with a Limitation
> (must end Movement touching an object for support, -?)?
> Like I said, I went with Superleap/Clinging, because it also gave
> the bonus Leaping for STR, and was easier to think of at the time...
I usually use flight with limitations for this. Clinging doesn't allow
the martial artist to land on places that should not support their weight,
something I've I've seen in anime before. It's really just a matter of
taste though.
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:16:03 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
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At 09:51 AM 10/16/97 GMT, Steve McGinness wrote:
>I think the example above _is_ actually a limitation. What I'm unclear on is
>how long it takes to Instant Change as far as game mechanics go. If he can
>Instant Change twice before anyone else can move then it is less of a
>limitation but is still a limitation.
>
>Consider:
>Black Knight is fighting Martial Artist and Mr Muscle. Black Knight attacks
>first then is disarmed of the Shield of Knight before Mr Muscle lays one on
>him. Much more damage to Black Knight than if the Shield were not able to be
>taken away.
>
And, also, if he's disarmed (his sword, this time), he'd have to drop his
OIHID Armor and his OIF Shield to Instant Change 2x to get his Sword back.
If he can only Instant Change 1x/Phase, he'll be in *big* trouble.
>I'd say, can be disarmed is probably a (+1/4) limitation, getting half way
>to being a focus. You can remove the use of the power for a limited time but
>not keep it away, unless of course you are able to lock him into the shape
>he lost the weapons and then you have removed those powers until he can
>Instant Change, or physically retrieve them himself.
>
Well, I've seen "Can be Blocked" on Energy Blasts for -1/2. So, "Can be
Disarmed" for -1/2 or -1/4 might be a good one. To further muddy the
waters, though, the Black Knight has his Instant Change with "Incantations"
(he says, "Avalon" to change either way). This could limit his ability to
retrieve his weapons even more...
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:19:30 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 06:57 AM 10/16/97 -0400, John P Weatherman wrote:
>That depends, if the Focii are universal, and I'd expect they are, and the
person
>who took them can then use them for a while, maybe even against Black
Knight, and/
>or if the "get them back" power is only "at the Dramatically Appropriate Time",
>read 1 charge per adventure effect, then there is still a real limitation going
>on. If there are no limitations on the "I get it back" effect however, John's
>right, there's no limitation involved. Assuming there is a limitation, I'd
>reduce the Focus limitation by -1/4 (OA Sword -3/4, OIF Armor -1/4).
>
Well, they're Universal, one of the villains was going to kill the Knight
with his own Sword. It was at that point he switched out of Hero ID and
back in.
I don't believe there's an appropriate Charges Limitation on the "I get it
back" effect, but I'm not sure about the other Limitations. He has
Incantations (Avalon!) on his Instant Change, though.
- Jerry
From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 01:32:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: hero cannon?
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Hey all...
I thought this was a very interesting reply to a question about which rule
books are 'cannon' and which are unofficial. This seems to say that all
listed books are official. You can find this note in the rec.rpg.super-hero
newsgroup.
Subject: Re: Champions 4th Edition = Rule Bible?
From: herogames@aol.com (Hero Games)
Date: Wed, Oct 15, 1997 12:16 EDT
Message-id: <19971015161601.MAA18792@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Rules for the Hero System can be found in:
Champions 4th Edition Deluxe Hardbound
Fantasy Hero
Hero System Almanac I
Hero System Almanac II
Dark Champions
An Eye For An Eye
Western Hero
Cyber Hero
Horror Hero
The Ultimate Martial Artist
The Ultimate Mentalist
The Ultimate Super Mage
Issues of Adventurers Club magazine
All of which are available from Hero Games. See our web site at
www.herogames.com for product and ordering information. If you send us email
with your postal address, we'll send you a copy of the Hero News, our
newsletter with infromation about new and upcoming products.
Also, on our web site you'll find Digital Hero, a webzine with new articles
posted weekly for the Hero System and Fuzion.
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games, www.herogames.com
<Send email with your postal address to herogames@aol.com to get on the Hero
Plus mailing list; you'll get all the latest Hero news!>
X-Sender: mactyre@mail.aci.net
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:54:24 -0700
From: Matthew Mactyre <mactyre@aci.net>
Subject: RE: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
At 10:24 PM 10/15/97 +0000, you wrote:
>> If you magically gave him STR via an Aid spell, he would only get
>> half the STR points. Why? Because this power works on power
>> points, not on absolute STR points.
>
>This point has not been firmly established yet, unfortunately. It's
>been done both ways in the published material, and there's no
>specific reference to this in the BBB.
Hmm... This may not be right, but we've always thought of the NCM to apply
to non-enhanced characteristics. If someone was playing a character with
powered armor, his strength would reflect the strength of the armor not his
natural strength. I think the same thing would hold true for magical
enhancement. IMHO
Matthew
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_________________
Matthew Mactyre
mactyre@aci.net
http://www.mactyre.net
PGP Key available on request
PGP fingerprint = A2 AE 68 AE 2E 96 94 C3 30 ED 53 59 A6 FF 3B 1F
If you can't describe it with numbers, it isn't a science.
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:14:30 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: RE: Heromaker: Who uses it?
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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At 10:54 PM 10/15/97 -0700, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 10:24 PM 10/15/97 +0000, you wrote:
>>> If you magically gave him STR via an Aid spell, he would only get
>>> half the STR points. Why? Because this power works on power
>>> points, not on absolute STR points.
>>
>>This point has not been firmly established yet, unfortunately. It's
>>been done both ways in the published material, and there's no
>>specific reference to this in the BBB.
>
>Hmm... This may not be right, but we've always thought of the NCM to apply
>
>to non-enhanced characteristics. If someone was playing a character with
>powered armor, his strength would reflect the strength of the armor not his
>
>natural strength. I think the same thing would hold true for magical
>enhancement. IMHO
>
>Matthew
i often thought a lower level disadvantage would be in order-
maybe one which allows stats bought as a focus or OIHID only,
with a reduced discount? however, how does all this really
relate to aids and transfers? perhaps magical spells and 'dorph boosts
would be best portrayed as aids, at full power? it's more valid than
breraking NCM rules, and i don;t see much of a reason for a 'strenth'
spell to work better on supers than mundanes. As for power armour, perhaps
a small enclosed vehicle with extra limbs? it seems extreme,
but i think NCM should be preserved, at least in terms of the
actual character stats. . .
>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 01:17:05 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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Vance Scott wrote:
>
> > Well, I am about over the flu now, so I can go back to work, and stop writing
> > so much on this silly list. :-)
>
I am not going away, just dropping back a notch.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 02:01:50 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Effective Armour Management (was Norse God of Thunder)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Chris Lynch wrote:
> [I suggested a VPP to represent multiple suits]
>
> I don't like using VPP for representing suits of armour. Although they would
> obviously be customisable you are left in a bit of a no-win situation.
Oh no! Not a no-win situation!!!! :-)
[snipped good, detailed discussion of the problems]
You can restrict what powers can come out of a VPP. IMHO, a VPP that
contains only powers that are pre-approved by the GM, or only
configurations of powers that are pre-approved by the GM are valid, and
entitled to limitations.
I might apply the following limitations to the first control cost, which
represents changing suits or building a new suit.
Powers are limited to N active points(-1/2)
Powers are restricted to pre-approved configurations(-1/2)
Changing configurations requires that the suit be available(-1/2)
OIF(-1/2)
Total limitation = -2. By special effect, designing a new suit (approved
configuration) requires days, or weeks, or access to special materials.
Now, most power armor includes at least one multipower, but multipowers
are forbidden in VPPs. Rather than relaxing this stricture, we can have
each suit design include a list of powers that conceptually should be in
a multipower, and allow these to be controlled via a second control cost,
which only applies to enough of the pool to describe the largest MP of
any of the suits.
Zero Phase(+1) No skill roll(+1): total advantages=+2.
Powers are restricted to "MP" set for this suit(-3/4)
Changing available set requires changing suit(-1/4)
OIF(-1/2)
Total limitation = -1 1/2.
If the total real points of each suit are 200 and the MP size is 80, then
the costs would be:
200 VPP Size Cost
33 Control Cost -- changing and designing suits
No power over 80 active points. Change powers by changing suit.
New suits require extensive time out-of-game. OIF
48 Control Cost on 80-point "MP"
Only applies to 80 points. Zero phase, no skill roll
Only powers on MP list for OIF suit worn.
---
281
I think that this meets most or all of your objections.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 02:42:19 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Powwow
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 85
Todd Hanson wrote:
>
> Tim Gilberg says:
>
> >> You can get powwow at http://www.tribal.com/powwow/
> >
> > That's assuming one wants to support a racist company that uses
> >onld sterotypes to sell its product, not to mention bastardizing what
> is a
> >cultural concept.
<....>
> Maybe before you jump to conclusions, you should actually LOOK at the
> web page. Especially the part where they talk about who they are...
> (ie. a group of native americans funded by native american groups
> working to maintain the native american culture, etc)
>
> Did you think 'injuns' don't use computers??
>
> Todd
Game, Set, and Match. I was going to respond to Mr. G's post, but at
this point, it would seem horribly redundant.
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 97 09:51:44 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Steve McGinness)
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 10:34 PM 15/10/97, John Desmarais wrote:
>> Anyway, the Black Knight has his Sword of Light and Shield of Knight
>>taken away from him (they behave like Foci). Then, when the Dramatically
>>Appropriate Time occurs, he Instant Changes to his normal ID, and then
>>Instant Changes right back, and now has all his Foci.
>> How would I model this?
>
>Simple - a limitation that does limit, isn't a limitation. If physically
taking them away
^^^^
>didn't rob him of the power then they aren't foci.
>
That's a new variant!! Is that to tame those powergamers who take all kinds
of real limitations on their powers?? :-)
I think the example above _is_ actually a limitation. What I'm unclear on is
how long it takes to Instant Change as far as game mechanics go. If he can
Instant Change twice before anyone else can move then it is less of a
limitation but is still a limitation.
Consider:
Black Knight is fighting Martial Artist and Mr Muscle. Black Knight attacks
first then is disarmed of the Shield of Knight before Mr Muscle lays one on
him. Much more damage to Black Knight than if the Shield were not able to be
taken away.
I'd say, can be disarmed is probably a (+1/4) limitation, getting half way
to being a focus. You can remove the use of the power for a limited time but
not keep it away, unless of course you are able to lock him into the shape
he lost the weapons and then you have removed those powers until he can
Instant Change, or physically retrieve them himself.
Stephen
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 97 09:59:27 UT
From: "Jeff Tolle" <Trigon@classic.msn.com>
Subject: RE: Foci and Instant Change
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
If he has a secret ID lim then the point is moot. If he is disarmed then he
runs the risk of exposing his Secret ID when he goes through the instant
change!!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-champ-l@omg.org On Behalf Of John P Weatherman
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 1997 6:57 AM
To: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
John Desmarais John.Desmarais@ibm.net 10/15/97 10:34 PM
>On Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:20:51 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>
>> Due to some comments on this list last semester (most of which, I
>>believe, came from Michael Jones about some guy with both OIHID and OIF), I
>>let the player with the D&D type character have Instant Change into his
>>Armor (OIF) and Sword (OAF). The Instant Change was also bought on an OAF,
>>which meant that if someone else was holding the Foci and resisting, he
>>couldn't change (he would still change into the other Foci, if it were not
>>held by a resisting person).
>> Now, I have picked up Heroes for Hire #6 today. I guess this is a
>>bit of a spoiler, so if you haven't read it yet...
>> Anyway, the Black Knight has his Sword of Light and Shield of Knight
>>taken away from him (they behave like Foci). Then, when the Dramatically
>>Appropriate Time occurs, he Instant Changes to his normal ID, and then
>>Instant Changes right back, and now has all his Foci.
>> How would I model this?
>
>Simple - a limitation that does limit, isn't a limitation. If physically
>taking them away
>didn't rob him of the power then they aren't foci.
>
That depends, if the Focii are universal, and I'd expect they are, and
the person
who took them can then use them for a while, maybe even against Black
Knight, and/
or if the "get them back" power is only "at the Dramatically Appropriate
Time",
read 1 charge per adventure effect, then there is still a real limitation
going
on. If there are no limitations on the "I get it back" effect however,
John's
right, there's no limitation involved. Assuming there is a limitation,
I'd
reduce the Focus limitation by -1/4 (OA Sword -3/4, OIF Armor -1/4).
PAX,
John
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 03:25:52 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Disadvantage enforcement...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote:
<intro snipped...>
> So here's my question: Has anyone expanded on the Psychological
> Limitation rules? Possibly even extended the list of common
> limits which was in the BBB? How do GURPS disadds compare
> price-wise to Hero?
Okay, first, let me state that I present no specific answers to your
questions, here, because I generally dislike 'lists of stuff' and 'hard
number crunching' involved with topics like this, and tend towards
sweeping generalizations intended to encompass and include any
individual examples presented (Oh, just shut up and get on with it,
Spith)
My method of ascertaining the value of a Psychological Limitation
includes looking at its effect from two different directions. First,
from the BBB's rules perspective;
Frequency (of course) refers specifically how often the limitation
will affect the character. Not how often the situation will exist or
come up in a campaign, but strictly whether or not the character will be
affected by it as a result of his Disad.
A 'common' event/situation should probably affect the character
significantly at least every other gaming session, 'very common' at
least once per session (or more for particularly long sessions - more
than 6 or 7 hours at a shot).
The intensity of the Psych Lim is something that simply has to be
judged by the GM and player, though even the lowest intensity needs to
cause the character to respond to the situation differently than he
might without the disad, at least to a small degree.
The other way of looking at Pcych Lims is by taking the total bonus
gained from it and compare it to the 'level of inconvenience' of other
disadvantages at the same level.
I.E.; SlugMan has a fear of Salt, which has been judged to be an
uncommon occurence (he can avoid salt in his mundane exploits, and when
adventuring, seldom will be running into it), and a fanatic/extreme
reaction, for a total of 15 points. So every third or fourth game, he
may have to be sedated to cross the ocean with the team, or a villian
may discover his Vulnerability and carry a couple of containers of the
stuff for their next encounter. So... for 15 points, he could be
hunted by an equally powerd villian on <11. On an ongoing basis, his
problem with salt should be about as inconvenient as his nemesis coming
out to battle him every other game or so.
I.E.; Capt. NiceGuy doesn't like to fight women. Since there are
few female villians in his world, and he usually can let a teammate take
care of the women, this would be uncommon. Also, if a woman actually
ticked him off, he would have an easier time changing his mind, so it's
intensity is at the minimum level. 5 points. 1D6 of Unluck is worth 5
points, and is only very occasionally inconvenient; from all the
situations that unluck would be appropriate, only approximately 1/6 of
those situations will result in bad luck, consequently, those occasional
times the Capt. finds he has to subdue Miss Chief by himself, he'll
simply have to find some non-combative way of doing it, or wait until
she starts insulting his manhood....
I hope that this was a little help, anyway. I think the Bonus Level
comparison may help until you get the feel for Psych Lim levels.
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 06:37:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: hero canon?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
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X-UID: 87
In a message dated 97-10-16 01:38:52 EDT, you write:
Oops... make that canon... one 'n'... sorry, it's late.
<< Hey all...
I thought this was a very interesting reply to a question about which rule
books are 'canon' and which are unofficial. This seems to say that all
listed books are official. You can find this note in the rec.rpg.super-hero
newsgroup.
Subject: Re: Champions 4th Edition = Rule Bible?
From: herogames@aol.com (Hero Games)
Date: Wed, Oct 15, 1997 12:16 EDT
Message-id: <19971015161601.MAA18792@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Rules for the Hero System can be found in:
Champions 4th Edition Deluxe Hardbound
Fantasy Hero
Hero System Almanac I
Hero System Almanac II
Dark Champions
An Eye For An Eye
Western Hero
Cyber Hero
Horror Hero
The Ultimate Martial Artist
The Ultimate Mentalist
The Ultimate Super Mage
Issues of Adventurers Club magazine
All of which are available from Hero Games. See our web site at
www.herogames.com for product and ordering information. If you send us
email
with your postal address, we'll send you a copy of the Hero News, our
newsletter with infromation about new and upcoming products.
Also, on our web site you'll find Digital Hero, a webzine with new articles
posted weekly for the Hero System and Fuzion.
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games, www.herogames.com
<Send email with your postal address to herogames@aol.com to get on the Hero
Plus mailing list; you'll get all the latest Hero news!>
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 16:45:17 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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>I suppose the -1/2 for "can be blocked" is because it allows HtH manoeuvres
>that _everyone_ has to affect a ranged attack. I'd keep it to -1/4 because
>OIF is -1/2 and if you will give people EB, no range, can be disarmed then
>no-one will take EB, no range, OIF for the same cost.
>
Okay, but _everyone_ can perform a regular Disarm as well. And this would
have different effects than OIF. OIFs can't be taken away unless the
character has been incapacitated. "Can be Disarmed" Powers could be taken
away in combat, they would just have an easy way of being retrieved (like
Instant Changing back and forth real quick). I don't think -1/2 is too much
if it isn't too much for "Can be Blocked."
Also, I know several Players that would take an OIF, because they wouldn't
lose it during combat... or because it was thematic.
- Jerry
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 97 06:57:17 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
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X-UID: 88
John Desmarais John.Desmarais@ibm.net 10/15/97 10:34 PM
>On Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:20:51 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>
>> Due to some comments on this list last semester (most of which, I
>>believe, came from Michael Jones about some guy with both OIHID and OIF), I
>>let the player with the D&D type character have Instant Change into his
>>Armor (OIF) and Sword (OAF). The Instant Change was also bought on an OAF,
>>which meant that if someone else was holding the Foci and resisting, he
>>couldn't change (he would still change into the other Foci, if it were not
>>held by a resisting person).
>> Now, I have picked up Heroes for Hire #6 today. I guess this is a
>>bit of a spoiler, so if you haven't read it yet...
>> Anyway, the Black Knight has his Sword of Light and Shield of Knight
>>taken away from him (they behave like Foci). Then, when the Dramatically
>>Appropriate Time occurs, he Instant Changes to his normal ID, and then
>>Instant Changes right back, and now has all his Foci.
>> How would I model this?
>
>Simple - a limitation that does limit, isn't a limitation. If physically
>taking them away
>didn't rob him of the power then they aren't foci.
>
That depends, if the Focii are universal, and I'd expect they are, and
the person
who took them can then use them for a while, maybe even against Black
Knight, and/
or if the "get them back" power is only "at the Dramatically Appropriate
Time",
read 1 charge per adventure effect, then there is still a real limitation
going
on. If there are no limitations on the "I get it back" effect however,
John's
right, there's no limitation involved. Assuming there is a limitation,
I'd
reduce the Focus limitation by -1/4 (OA Sword -3/4, OIF Armor -1/4).
PAX,
John
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 05:34:51 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Effective Armour Management
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
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X-UID: 164
At 06:46 PM 10/15/97 +0100, Chris Lynch wrote:
>If you provide the pool with enough points to make the suits effective at
>thier chosen task you open yourself to a lot of abuse by players. For
>example: A big monster type thing with high defenses is attacking the city.
>The players have two options: Do something innovative, creative and above
>all intelligent to defeat the beast. Alternatively they can charge up their
>powers and do thier best to minimise property damage and wait for Armour to
>get from the lab with his OAF, Independant, 1 charge big gun of doom. He
>only gets to fire it once.... but as it has about a squillion dice of RKA.
>Goodbye big monster.
This scenario actually has quite a bit of damage. How well can a team
of heroes hold Hach-U-Rui in check while their gadgteer/powered-armor guy
builds a weapon capable of stopping him? Let his path be crossed by an
ambulance carrying a juvenile DNPC who is on her way to the hospital for a
heart transplant, and let the sparks fly!
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:48:46 -0400 (EDT)
cc: hero-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
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In a message dated 97-10-16 01:14:34 EDT, you write:
<< Just out of curiosity, am I the only person on the list who finds anything
but the most vague of timelines to be restrictive when planning and running
a game? >>
[big snip]
No, you're not. I'm a 'by the seat of my pants' GM also, and have found in
games that I've run that the players really enjoyed the parts they played in
helping to create the world they reside in. I have used, and seen other GMs
use, brief timelines to give their world flavor, character, and depth, but
for the most part, the majority of the gameworld is brought to life by the GM
and the players as the game progresses. Now this is in a supers setting in a
world that is identical to our own, with the obvious exception of the men and
women running around in tights. Other games may require a more detailed
timeline. But for a supers game, I prefer to only give rough skeleton anchor
points and fill in the details as the game or players explore them.
Later,
'Lynx
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:51:10 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Powwow
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>> > I couldn't count the number of caucasians who tell me their race is
>> >American, where-as the guy next to them is 'chinese' (the guy who's family
>> >came over in 1870...).
>>
>> I, for one, never say that my race is American. That may be my
>> nationality, but is certainly not my race. As a "race" American is made up
>> of several sub-races (Caucasian, black, Asian, Hispanic,etc.) which are
>> included in it as a whole, not just one. That's one of the best things
>> about this country, IMHO, is the diversity. No other place on this planet
>> has so many people from different backgrounds and ethniticities. I think
>> that it is absolutely fantastic. Now, I have a whole different opinion
>> about Illegal Aliens, but that's a different story entirely. :)
>>
> Isn't it interesting how Illegal immigrants come up in these
>conversations all the time.
> "No I don't hate non-X's, but those Illegals..."
>
> Anyway, an interesting note is that most Illegals in the US
>are from Canada, second if not third is Mexico, Euro's come in very
>high as well.
>
> And yes, diversity is one of the few advantages the USA has over most,
>though all other nations. It's also the strongest weakness. Since more
>often than not it divides Americans.
>
> But this is another side topic, not relevant to Champions... :)
>
Actually, one of my Players currently has a character who is an illegal
immigrant from Slovakia. His father is a super-powered supporter of a
Democratic Dictatorship, and Nicholas embezzled LOTS of money from him, and
ran away to America to become a hero. Actually, he bought his way in, and a
new identity stateside (Wealth: 15pts.).
So there. : P
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 19:00:00 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
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>The Instant Change cannot be in the Foci, since by nature when his Foci
>have been taken he cannot use any of their powers. Likewise, the sword and
>shield cannot be Foci, since this too easilly circumvents the Limitations.
>For similar reasons I would hesitate to use OHID, since a Limitation that
>does not limit the character's use of the powers is worth no bonus
>
>In other words, his weapons are "Foci" only by special effect.
>
Well, for the character in my game (who doesn't match BK exactly, by any
means), I tacked on the OAF on the Instant Change not because it was
inherent in the Focus, but because, if it were held, it couldn't be donned
instantly.
BK definately doesn't have that.
As far as OIHID: what if he has a Secret ID? or if the Armor is really
uncomfortable : ) ? Or has limited time constraints? Would OIHID then be
appropriate?
- Jerry
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 06:14:15 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
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At 10:34 PM 10/15/97, John Desmarais wrote:
>On Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:20:51 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>
>> Due to some comments on this list last semester (most of which, I
>>believe, came from Michael Jones about some guy with both OIHID and OIF), I
>>let the player with the D&D type character have Instant Change into his
>>Armor (OIF) and Sword (OAF). The Instant Change was also bought on an OAF,
>>which meant that if someone else was holding the Foci and resisting, he
>>couldn't change (he would still change into the other Foci, if it were not
>>held by a resisting person).
>> Now, I have picked up Heroes for Hire #6 today. I guess this is a
>>bit of a spoiler, so if you haven't read it yet...
>> Anyway, the Black Knight has his Sword of Light and Shield of Knight
>>taken away from him (they behave like Foci). Then, when the Dramatically
>>Appropriate Time occurs, he Instant Changes to his normal ID, and then
>>Instant Changes right back, and now has all his Foci.
>> How would I model this?
>
>Simple - a limitation that does limit, isn't a limitation. If physically
taking them away
>didn't rob him of the power then they aren't foci.
1. I think what you meant to say was, "A Limitation that *doesn't*
limit isn't a Limitation." (An obvious typo, but even an obvious one needs
to be pointed out and confirmed when it changes the meaning of a sentence
that profoundly.)
2. Taking away the sword and shield *did* rob Black Knight of his
power. He just had a different than usual method of getting them back.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 06:24:24 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: hero cannon?
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[I got your correction, so I'll save the facetious smart-aleck remarks
for the next person who puts two Ns in canon.]
At 01:32 AM 10/16/97 -0400, Firelynx16@aol.com wrote:
>Hey all...
>
>I thought this was a very interesting reply to a question about which rule
>books are 'cannon' and which are unofficial. This seems to say that all
>listed books are official. You can find this note in the rec.rpg.super-hero
>newsgroup.
>
>Subject: Re: Champions 4th Edition = Rule Bible?
>From: herogames@aol.com (Hero Games)
>Date: Wed, Oct 15, 1997 12:16 EDT
>Message-id: <19971015161601.MAA18792@ladder02.news.aol.com>
>
>Rules for the Hero System can be found in:
>
>Champions 4th Edition Deluxe Hardbound
>Fantasy Hero
>Hero System Almanac I
>Hero System Almanac II
>Dark Champions
>An Eye For An Eye
>Western Hero
>Cyber Hero
>Horror Hero
>The Ultimate Martial Artist
>The Ultimate Mentalist
>The Ultimate Super Mage
>Issues of Adventurers Club magazine
This is actually a little ambiguous on this point. All Steve is really
saying there is that this is where rules for the Hero System can be found;
but how many of these are considered "official, full-fledged parts of the
Hero System that can be used on all characters"?
Obviously C4 (aka BBB) is "canon." It also seems that characters are
being built using rules from Dark Champions, An Eye For An Eye, and the
Ultimate books. But the special rules in the Almanacs and from the AC
don't seem to be a part of this. (The genre books are hard to tell, but
probably only apply for their own genres.)
Note that I'm going by how the guys at Hero treat the matter for the
sake of published characters, not how we *should* treat it on the list.
(On that one, I agree with Rat's clarified stance that everything outside
the BBB should be treated as an optional, alternate ruleset until a new BBB
is published, with the expanded rules.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:10:03 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net>
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
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Firelynx16@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-10-16 01:14:34 EDT, you write:
>
> << Just out of curiosity, am I the only person on the list who finds anything
> but the most vague of timelines to be restrictive when planning and running
> a game? >>
>
> [big snip]
>
> No, you're not.<...> Now this is in a supers setting in a
> world that is identical to our own, with the obvious exception of the men and
> women running around in tights. Other games may require a more detailed
> timeline. But for a supers game, I prefer to only give rough skeleton anchor
> points and fill in the details as the game or players explore them.
Finally jumping in on this thread
Good points all. I find that the further you stray away from real
history the more detailed the timeline needs to be.
When I started my Champs campaign, I had maybe 1/2 of a page of
handwritten notes for background and timeline. My FH campaign had about
8 pages typed with a little bitty font 8)
I find that having a timeline is increadibly usefull when the kind of
adventures you run tie the characters/adventures into the history of the
world (my FH did this, my Champs did not). It's also good for color (as
mentioned).
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
X-Sender: mactyre@mail.aci.net
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:14:31 -0700
From: Matthew Mactyre <mactyre@aci.net>
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
At 08:48 AM 10/16/97 -0400, Firelynx16@aol.com wrote:
><< Just out of curiosity, am I the only person on the list who finds
anything
> but the most vague of timelines to be restrictive when planning and
running
> a game? >>
>timeline. But for a supers game, I prefer to only give rough skeleton
anchor
>points and fill in the details as the game or players explore them.
I have found time lines to be useful in only one regard, large events like
assassination, political upheaval, natural disasters, etc. In that sense,
they add flavor to the game and can be seeds for future adventures. This
is
really true in games like Traveller, where the assassination of the Emperor
can have long reaching effects. I hardly ever make up a time line, choosing
instead to let the game dictate many of the events that effect the players.
I'm sure that time lines can be interesting for the person making them up,
kind of like making random dungeons in the "old days." <grin>
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_________________
Matthew Mactyre
mactyre@aci.net
http://www.mactyre.net
PGP Key available on request
PGP fingerprint = A2 AE 68 AE 2E 96 94 C3 30 ED 53 59 A6 FF 3B 1F
If you can't describe it with numbers, it isn't a science.
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:17:13 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: RE: No-Win Scenarios [Re: GMing Question #1]
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On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Rick Ryker wrote:
> Well. If we are descended from Cro-Magnon,
As I understand it, we _are_ Cro-Magnons.
> and we aren't from Neanderthal, and we are here,
> then we are the biological winners
> and, therefore, Mother Nature says our forebears were right!
But Mother Nature is completely amoral, and therefore unqualified to make
a judgement on whether an action is morally justifiable.
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:18:36 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Powwow
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On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote:
> What gets me about this whole phenomena is ... if the Chiefs and Redskins
> are 'racist' team names, am I supposed to go into a snit over the Vikings?
> (He says, tongue firmly in cheek.)
Well, "Viking" is just a descriptive term, whereas "Redskin" is a racial
slur. (At least, I wouldn't feel comfortable calling someone that.) Bit of
a difference there.
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:25:20 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: New Powers Plug-In (Or, I'm Impatient Enough Not To Wait)
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On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Jason A. Dour wrote:
> * What HERO4 Power Advantages have BIG problems, and what are the fixes?
Usable On Others; it shouldn't exist at all. There's no direct correlation
between the usefulness of doing X to yourself and the usefulness of doing
X to others, so it's silly to turn one type of Power into the other using
a simple Power Modifier.
> * What HERO4 Power Limitations have BIG problems, and what are the fixes?
None that I can think of.
> * What HERO4 Ads and Lims have you added to make power creation better?
Never seemed necessary. (Of course, there's really no such thing as adding
a new Limitation, since anything you think of can be slotted under Limited
Power.)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:33:02 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Robert A. West wrote:
> > > A desolid character is immune to all attacks, including NNDs, except for
> > > the listed special effect and for attacks with Affects Desolid. The
> > > rules are clear on this.
> >
> > Odd; my copy of the rules doesn't even mention the idea of a "listed
> > special effect" (singular) to which the character is vulnerable. What it
> > does say is that there has to be a reasonably common _group_ of attacks
> > which will affect the character. (Emphasis mine, of course.) However,
>
> And how do you form such groups? In almost every case of Desolid that
> comes to mind, such groups are defined by special effect.
By special effectS, yes. The group includes all those attacks whose
special effects should logically affect someone with that special effect
of Desolid.
[...]
> OK, so I found an example of a non-special-effect group: transdimensional
> attacks. All the rest are defined by special effect.
Yes, of course. Was this meant to disagree with something I said?
(Wait, how is "transdimensional" not a special effect?)
> > It seems straightforward to me that, in the latter case, Desolid would
> > _not_ protect from the effect. I certainly wouldn't allow Desolid to
> > protect a character from a Susceptibility for which they gained points, so
> > why should it protect from an "everyman" Susc?
>
> I see no reason that most susceptibilities would affect most desolid
> characters.
The rules state that you get no defense against your suscpetibility.
Desolid isn't technically a defense, of course, but it seems to me that
the intent of that rule is to make sure that the player can't use their
Powers or stats to render the Susceptibility irrelevant.
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:38:08 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: No-Win Scenarios [Re: GMing Question #1]
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On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Robert A. West wrote:
> Since the two species could not (by definition of species) interbreed,
> there was no basis for cooperation.
Why is interfertility necessary for cooperation?
(Aside: I've heard Neandrethal referred to as "homo sapiens neandrethalis"
(ie, a subspecies of home sapiens) as well as "homo neandrethalis", but
the former may be out of date (or just wrong).)
> Eventually, the only way to open up a new niche would be to force the
> present occupant out. Predators do this in the wild all the time: lions
> kill leopard kits, hyenas kill lion cubs, and so on. Chimpanzees prey on
> one another, and tribes of chimpanzees fight over resources. Why would it
> be any different with the two species in question?
Because the species involved are sentient, and consequently capable of
being held responsible for their actions.
> Where would a moral context come from that would override an instinctive
> question of survival?
The same place moral contexts always come from: the person evaluating the
action.
> Survival is the first, and only, law of nature.
True, but not really relevant IMO.
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:39:00 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
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On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Captain Spith wrote:
> But it's the Mac-system-clone aspect of win'95 that turns me off! I
> like the simpler, more kludgy feel of 3.x in conjunction with DOS.
Well, if it makes you feel any better, Win'95 is still a kludgy Windows in
conjunction with DOS thing. It's just that now they ship on the same CD.
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:40:30 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Universal Foci
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> What are Universal Foci? I believe someone made a reference to them
>earlier, and from context, they sounded like they had the one-time-cost
>qualities of Foci with the universal usability of Independent.
> That's what I'm looking for to build this damn bow!
Read the whole section on the 'Foci' Limitation. A Universal Foci is one
that anyone can pick up and use, which is neither an advantage (buddies can
use it) or disadvantage (enemiew could use it against you!). As for the
'bow' thing, I'm surprised nobody's come up with this:
Multipower: Arrows, OAF:Arrows (-1), Range Based on STR (-1/4)
<bunch of arrow slots>
+30 STR, 0 END (+1/2), No Figured Char (-1/2), OAF: Bow (-1), Only for
adding STR to Standing Throws (-1)
That keeps the bow and the arrows separate. For normal throwing, arrows are
neither balanced nor aerodynamic (too hard to throw an arrow properly by
hand), but with the bow (proper launching technique), they become balanced
and aerodynamic.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:40:36 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Powwow
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Chris Lynch wrote:
>
> Is that PsychLim: Paranoia (Common, Strong)
> or is it PsychLim: Crys foul of anything on the grounds of racism
> (V.Common,Total) with possibly an assoiated DF, Rep (14- naturally)?
>
Hmmm...Maybe it is a Berserk? I have it! Phys Lim: Foot is in mouth.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:44:15 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: hero cannon?
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At 03:44 PM 10/16/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>It is less an issue of "canonicity" as core rules vs. optional rules. The
>BBB, HSR, and CD are the core rules. All other officially published rules
>are optional -- if you would, "officially published house rules".
To be more precise, the Hero System Rulebook is the "core rules", and both
the BBB and CD happen to contain a copy. All other rules, including those
presented in the REST of the BBB/CD, are "officially published house rules".
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:44:19 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: RE: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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At 06:39 PM 10/16/97 -0500, Rick Ryker wrote:
> I would insert the word "directly" right after the phrase "Powers that
> raise Characteristics", because these powers raise Characteristics
> directly; that is, they don't raise the active power points, they raise
> the powers. (I'm speaking of Growth and Density Increase here.)
Reasonably enough, except that by inserting any word, you've moved into
discussing your house rules, which rather weakens your arguments. :]
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely. |
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Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:47:29 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Universal Foci
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org"
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What are Universal Foci? I believe someone made a reference to them
earlier, and from context, they sounded like they had the one-time-cost
qualities of Foci with the universal usability of Independent.
That's what I'm looking for to build this damn bow!
-Jason "I'm stuck with 32 charges and STILL can't fire it..." Sullivan
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:51:52 -0500 (CDT)
From: Mark Allen Wallace <maw0001@jove.acs.unt.edu>
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Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:35:05 -0700
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Powwow
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At 11:18 AM 10/16/97 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>
>> What gets me about this whole phenomena is ... if the Chiefs and Redskins
>> are 'racist' team names, am I supposed to go into a snit over the Vikings?
>> (He says, tongue firmly in cheek.)
>
>Well, "Viking" is just a descriptive term, whereas "Redskin" is a racial
>slur. (At least, I wouldn't feel comfortable calling someone that.) Bit of
>a difference there.
>
>
<Shrug>For a while, 'Viking'was not a nice thing to call a person -- they
didn't have the best rep in Europe, you know. And while 'Redskin' might be
an epithet, then so is the "Fighting Irish", yet, no one gets upset over them.
I could argue that the LACK of ethnic team names is also insulting -- you
name a team after something you admire, or something you think exemplifies
the qualities you want to have. So where are the JEWISH team names? Why not
the New York Rabbis, or the Los Angeles Maccabees? I'm getting very
offended at the gross under-representation of Jewish ethnic teams. It
perpetuates the stereotype of Jews as non-athletic, nerdy types who would
rather run a business than toss a football. This has damaged my
self-esteem, disenfranchised me from the greater community, and violated my
personhood.
Who do I sue?
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 97 16:44:12 GMT
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From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Steve McGinness)
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
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At 11:16 AM 16/10/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>Well, I've seen "Can be Blocked" on Energy Blasts for -1/2. So, "Can be
>Disarmed" for -1/2 or -1/4 might be a good one. To further muddy the
>waters, though, the Black Knight has his Instant Change with "Incantations"
>(he says, "Avalon" to change either way). This could limit his ability to
>retrieve his weapons even more...
>
>- Jerry
I suppose the -1/2 for "can be blocked" is because it allows HtH manoeuvres
that _everyone_ has to affect a ranged attack. I'd keep it to -1/4 because
OIF is -1/2 and if you will give people EB, no range, can be disarmed then
no-one will take EB, no range, OIF for the same cost.
Stephen
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:51:16 -0700
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: No-Win Scenarios [Re: GMing Question #1]
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Trevor Barrie wrote:
> > Where would a moral context come from that would override an
> instinctive question of survival?
>
> The same place moral contexts always come from: the person evaluating
> the action.
Or "History is written by the winner."
-Mark
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: What a Timeline is truely good for
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:06:15 -0700 (PDT)
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> ><< Just out of curiosity, am I the only person on the list who finds
> anything
> > but the most vague of timelines to be restrictive when planning and
> running
> > a game? >>
>
> >timeline. But for a supers game, I prefer to only give rough skeleton
> anchor
> >points and fill in the details as the game or players explore them.
> I have found time lines to be useful in only one regard, large events like
> assassination, political upheaval, natural disasters, etc. In that sense,
> they add flavor to the game and can be seeds for future adventures. This
> is
> can have long reaching effects. I hardly ever make up a time line, choosing
> instead to let the game dictate many of the events that effect the players.
> I'm sure that time lines can be interesting for the person making them up,
> kind of like making random dungeons in the "old days." <grin>
>
Actually, it's precisly (sp?) to avoid the 'random' dungeon crawl
feel that I do make up Timelines in my games.
Let's step away from SuperHero for a bit and into Fantasy mode
(if I remember to, I'll try to tie this back to SH by the end of this
post, but being a 'seat of the pants writer, I often get scrambled, I
need to start using the writer's Timeline: outlines :) ).
In my fantasy world, events pregame often do read like a novel.
I have a world with events going back 10 milion years, before all but
one of the sentient races was present. Actions where set in motion then
that are finally coming into play in the current era. The world sets
itself on the beginnings of an industrial age, having just finished a war
who's cause was 40 thousand years in the making.
For this world I weave a long Timeline showing the how and why of
these events. I need to show how the worlds cultures developed the way
they did. Why tensions exist where they do. Etc.
To just say: It's fantasy, make and Elf or an Orc or something
it leaving my players out to dry.
By doing a complex history to include Timeline, cultural data,
religions, inter-group tensions, even mating rituals; I give my players
and myself a living breathing world to enjoy.
The timeline is just a graph that shows how it relates together.
It's like the outline teachers made us prepare for essays back in grade
school.
In my Super World; I don't just take the champions universe
carbon copy and tell my PC's to make a guy with 250 to 300 points who
wears spandex.
I like to pretend I have a unique world with unique themes. I
know it's pretentious of me, but it's my little vice to do so. As such,
I prepare my own history for Supers in my world. What have they changed?
When did they get here? Why are they here? How does there presence affect
the psych of the world?
I find a short and handy why to outline this is to present a
Timeline. In it I present examples of what Supers have done. Examples of
how the genre has caused a diferent psychological paradigm in my world
than in the 'real world'.
Sure I have my essays on the nature of Supers. Their mindset.
How they've altered reality; physically, mentally, as well as spiritually.
How they are perceived; by both themselves and others. The nature of
conflict paradigm between hero and villian. Why it exists and why supers
are drawn by their very nature to chose a side in it.
Yes, I have all these essays; but they boil down to being long
drawn out often dull documents. The Timeline serves as a quick and instant
'soundbyte' highlighting these paradigms in action. By reading this history
my players can get a quick and dirty feel for the Super Genre in action as
I present it in my game.
Once they've looked through my timeline and outlines, players wanting
further detail can go to my essays. But the Timeline suffices for many.
Once a game starts the Timeline becomes more than an outline. It
becomes a fluid flow chart, used to help one maintain consistancy. Shelley
complained that she had reservations on the continued use of her world, as
there were too many details to track. Perhaps with a timeline these details
could all be layed out in outline form on a simple graph. Each entry letting
one know where to go for further detail.
This allows for a game to be incredible detailed and complex, yet
still maintain consistancy with ease.
It also helps in forming plots. Lets say I've been running an ongoing
game for several months and the current plot is winding down. As a GM, I know
I need to begin dropping leeds for the upcoming major plot. So I look into
my Timeline for anything possibly unresolved. Or any Pandora's boxes I can
open. Finding one way back there somewhere, I can make notations on my
'future' section of my Timeline as to when I plan to drop hints and clues to
this upcoming plotline.
Let's look at a comicbook example. The whole marvel mutant thing.
They've used forshadowing for years to let us know that something was going
to happen someday. Put on a well managed Timeline Flowchart, this would
allow the authors to keep it consistant, as well as make sure that hints
dropped were followed up on.
I don't know how I could run anything more than a simple game without
such a flowchart. The Timeline is an invaluable tool for structuring several
elements of a world:
1. It's paradigms
2. It's history
3. Forshadowing
4. Maintaining Consistancy
5. Indexing the greater detailed elements of the world
Current notes for my campaign world can be found at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
It's rather sparse so far. Most of my stuff was lost in a monsoon
some years back; and I've only recently decided to begin reconstruction.
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Powwow
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:22:06 -0700 (PDT)
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>
> On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>
> > What gets me about this whole phenomena is ... if the Chiefs and Redskins
> > are 'racist' team names, am I supposed to go into a snit over the Vikings?
> > (He says, tongue firmly in cheek.)
>
> Well, "Viking" is just a descriptive term, whereas "Redskin" is a racial
> slur. (At least, I wouldn't feel comfortable calling someone that.) Bit of
> a difference there.
>
Yes, 'Redskin' fit's under the same header as
Chink
Jap
Honkie
Injun
Primative
Savage
Nigger
Spic
Gook
Wetback
Jungle Bunny
Gringo
Eskimo (yes that's right, it's not a proper word for them)
Oriental (try using that one in San Francisco's Chinatown)
Krout (sp?, not up to date on my WWII racial slurs...)
etc... The point should be cear...
Viking fits under the same heading as:
Persian
Aztec
Babalonian
Sumerian
Mayan
Roman
(ie, person from no longer existant nationality)
Native American fits under:
Caucasian
Asian
Hispanic
African/African American
American fits under:
English
Canadian
Chinese
Indian (yes, it's a real country out there)
Iranian
Cuban
Somoli
Inuit (now you know what to call 'most' Eskimo you meet)
Mexican
Jamacian
etc...
I may be wrong on my placement of Inuit, but I believe they
are mostly soveriegn, and therefore a nationality as well as an ethnicity.
Please correct me where wrong.
My point here? Only one of these catagories is considered 'insulting',
though they are all used incorrectly.
I couldn't count the number of caucasians who tell me their race is
American, where-as the guy next to them is 'chinese' (the guy who's family
came over in 1870...).
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:24:39 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
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> > But it's the Mac-system-clone aspect of win'95 that turns me off! I
> > like the simpler, more kludgy feel of 3.x in conjunction with DOS.
>
> Well, if it makes you feel any better, Win'95 is still a kludgy Windows in
> conjunction with DOS thing. It's just that now they ship on the same CD.
Heck. That's the way I want it. I have too many old programs
that won't run under Windows (3.1 or 95). I even set my default boot to
the prompt.
-Tim Gilberg
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Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:13:30 -0700
From: Michelle Knight <mlknight@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Powwow
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At 10:22 AM 10/16/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote:
> I couldn't count the number of caucasians who tell me their race is
>American, where-as the guy next to them is 'chinese' (the guy who's family
>came over in 1870...).
I, for one, never say that my race is American. That may be my
nationality, but is certainly not my race. As a "race" American is made up
of several sub-races (Caucasian, black, Asian, Hispanic,etc.) which are
included in it as a whole, not just one. That's one of the best things
about this country, IMHO, is the diversity. No other place on this planet
has so many people from different backgrounds and ethniticities. I think
that it is absolutely fantastic. Now, I have a whole different opinion
about Illegal Aliens, but that's a different story entirely. :)
Michelle
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:14:35 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Non-Stereotypical Minority Supers
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To kind of segue from the "Pow-wow" discussion (if it could be
called that)...
What sort of Native American heroes would be considered
non-stereotypical and non-offensive? Most of the Marvel ones had some sort
of "Indian" motif. I somewhat imagined that some would do that. I'd like
to interject some minority Supers into my games (probably as NPCs) but would
like them to be non-stereotypes. Yes, some will probably be stereotypical,
but I want some to be surprising, and I would like them all to have depth.
A little help (and some opinions) would be greatly appreciated.
- Jerry
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:15:49 -0700
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
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Subject: Re: Non-Stereotypical Minority Supers
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Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> To kind of segue from the "Pow-wow" discussion (if it could be
> called that)...
>
> What sort of Native American heroes would be considered
> non-stereotypical and non-offensive? Most of the Marvel ones had some sort
> of "Indian" motif. I somewhat imagined that some would do that. I'd like
> to interject some minority Supers into my games (probably as NPCs) but would
> like them to be non-stereotypes. Yes, some will probably be stereotypical,
> but I want some to be surprising, and I would like them all to have depth.
> A little help (and some opinions) would be greatly appreciated.
>
> - Jerry
A gadgeteer, actually, I think marvel had one for a while, wasn't he called
"Forge"?
I play an asian guy who's powers are based on techno music and who has no
martial arts
in a V&V PBeM.
Just figure out what the stereotype is for a given group and then avoid it.
Or use a stereotype
of another group :)
Seeker is one of my favorites. He's your basic ninja, only he's white,
aussie, and asia-clueless.
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat #gurps and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
Gurps is for discussion of the GURPS RolePlaying Game
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:35:27 -0700
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: What a Timeline is truely good for
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> >> can have long reaching effects. I hardly ever make up a time line,
> choosing
> >> instead to let the game dictate many of the events that effect the
> players.
> >> I'm sure that time lines can be interesting for the person making them
> up,
> >> kind of like making random dungeons in the "old days." <grin>
> <big snip>
> > Let's look at a comicbook example. The whole marvel mutant thing.
> >They've used forshadowing for years to let us know that something was
> going
> >to happen someday. Put on a well managed Timeline Flowchart, this would
> >allow the authors to keep it consistant, as well as make sure that hints
> >dropped were followed up on.
> >
> > I don't know how I could run anything more than a simple game without
> >such a flowchart. The Timeline is an invaluable tool for structuring
> several
> >elements of a world:
> > 1. It's paradigms
> > 2. It's history
> > 3. Forshadowing
> > 4. Maintaining Consistancy
> > 5. Indexing the greater detailed elements of the world
>
> Good, Brian, I'm glad you can make such an intricate gaming world via your
> time lines. I like to watch what type of world is brought into being from
> the player input.
Same here. But I think a frame is needed to start with. Unless I use a
published world, I needto be able to answer player questions about my world. Once
I make up an answer, I'd better
write it down so I have the same answer next time. And nowhere in there have I
said that a Timeline
could not be added to and deleted from by player input. I would disapointed if my
players didn't
do such.
It's just a framework for keeping track of things 'on paper' as opposed to in
one's heads.
I've kept much of my universe in my head for head for years, which has resulted
in a few gaping
holes in consistancy. What is written down has been kept consistant. I fail to
see why writing it
down makes it 'anti-player' input.
I could just jot down random notes, sure... But I find it's better to
organize them. By date seems the
best method to me. Thus Timeline. There may be other ways as well. But it boils
down to the same tool.
> I have a rough idea of what is going on in the
> "universe"
> at large, but don't structure the game in the same manor you do. I find it
> to constraining, and have had too many GMs that are more interested in
> their
> plot/time line then the joy of playing, often railroading players into
> actions they don't what to take in order to further the GMs plot.
>
I agree here. I can't stand being railroaded. Many of the online PBeM'sread
that way. The only exeption I found was the first half of the VC PBeM.
Unfortunatly, it too fell into railroading in the latter half. The G3 game was
also a heavy victim of this. Every action taken went against the PC's somehow.
I'm currently lurking through as many PBeM's as I can. Mostly so I can choose
the style I'll use when/if I decide to GM one myself. But also to compare and
note the good and bad points of them.
I use Timelines to make sure I'm not forcing something. By writing it down I
can
compare what I plan to throw at them, versus what I have thrown at them, versus
what I do end up throwing at them. I can then correct for the next game when I
see
myself forcing a plot or issue wheras my notes show the players clearly trying to
go in another direction.
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat #gurps and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
Gurps is for discussion of the GURPS RolePlaying Game
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 97 18:49:06
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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On Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:11:05 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
>Trevor Barrie wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Robert A. West wrote:
>>
>> > ==================================================================
>> > Desolid vs NNDs:
>> >
>> > A desolid character is immune to all attacks, including NNDs, except for
>> > the listed special effect and for attacks with Affects Desolid. The
>> > rules are clear on this.
>>
>> Odd; my copy of the rules doesn't even mention the idea of a "listed
>> special effect" (singular) to which the character is vulnerable. What it
>> does say is that there has to be a reasonably common _group_ of attacks
>> which will affect the character. (Emphasis mine, of course.) However,
>
>And how do you form such groups? In almost every case of Desolid that
>comes to mind, such groups are defined by special effect. Perhaps "Armor
>Piercing Physical Attacks" or "Energy Attacks with an Odd Number of Dice"
>are valid groups under the rules, but I am having a hard time envisioning
>the special effect of the Desolid that would justify either choice.
>
>Special Effect of Desolid Special Effect(s) of attacks
>Cloud of Electrons Electromagnetic
>Time Warp Gravitational, Transdimensional
>Mist Fire; Wind attacks at 1/2
>Magical Phase-out Magical.
>Astral Any attack on physical body
>
>OK, so I found an example of a non-special-effect group: transdimensional
>attacks. All the rest are defined by special effect.
>
>
>>
>> It seems straightforward to me that, in the latter case, Desolid would
>> _not_ protect from the effect. I certainly wouldn't allow Desolid to
>> protect a character from a Susceptibility for which they gained points, so
>> why should it protect from an "everyman" Susc?
>
>I see no reason that most susceptibilities would affect most desolid
>characters. In some cases, there might be a "disadvantage that is not a
>disadvantage" issue. I certainly would discuss any planned exceptions
>with the player beforehand.
Hear hear! If your PC has an absolute defense against one of his
Limitations, then that Limitation isn't worth any points! OK, you can
shade that if the defense is a 1/Day thing or whatever.
This brings on an interesting example: a classical vampire has the
Physical Limitation 'Cannot Cross Running Water' (Infrequent, Fully),
but suppose the vampire were also a Vancian magician and could turn the
water to ice or teleport or something, as long as he had the spells
available and memorised? I'd change the limitation to Infrequent,
Partial. Thoughts?
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 97 19:12:24
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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On Wed, 15 Oct 1997 02:18:19 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
>Here's another. The grey area of all grey areas.
>
>The dreaded....TRANSFORM......aka the last refuge of a GM.
>
>What's major? What's minor?
It's easiest to do this by example:
Turning a white man black (eg the bag of soot in the face) is a
Cosmetic Transform
Turning a black man into an Asiatic is a Minor Transform
Turning a woman into a frog is a Major Transform
Creating something out of thin air is usually a Major Transform.
> Do cumulative transforms allow something to
> be partially transformed?
No.
>Is a transform that gives additional character disadvantages a major or
>minor Transform?
Major.
> How about one that aggravates an existing disadvantage?
This depends: if you're directly affecting the character, then Major;
if you're affecting some_thing_ which affects the character, then Minor
or major depending upon the degree of change.
Example: the Norse god Balder was Vulnerable to holly (or was it
mistletoe?). If you change his Vulnerability from holly to oak, that's
Major; if you change your oak spear to holly, that's minor; if you
change your *steel* spear to holly, then that's Major; if you change
your steel spear to look like it's made of holly, to try and make
Balder run off, then that's Cosmetic.
>Do the number of points in question matter?
Depends upon the effect: if you're Transforming a price into a frog,
then no; if you're Ba Kien transforming the local populace into
Super-boxers, then additional powers have to be balanced by additional
limitations, and the added points can't exceed the Active Points in the
power (qv Ninja Hero). Unless the GM so allows it.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:24:34 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: No-Win Scenarios [Re: GMing Question #1]
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At 11:17 AM 10/16/97 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Rick Ryker wrote:
>
>> Well. If we are descended from Cro-Magnon,
>
>As I understand it, we _are_ Cro-Magnons.
Only the Americans. The rest are Homo Sapiens. ;-]
---
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Universal Foci
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:28:31 -0700
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On Thursday, October 16, 1997 7:09 AM, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> What are Universal Foci? I believe someone made a reference to them
>earlier, and from context, they sounded like they had the
one-time-cost
>qualities of Foci with the universal usability of Independent.
> That's what I'm looking for to build this damn bow!
On top of Accessible, Inaccessible, Obvious and Inobvious, there are
two other qualities of foci that are special effects only and don't
affect cost. These two are Breakability and Applicability.
Breakability has two forms, Breakable and Unbreakable. A Breakable
focus can be broken, but can be rebuilt or replaced if broken or
stolen. An Unbreakable focus cannot be broken, but cannot be replaced
if stolen.
Applicability is the one you are looking for. A Personal focus can
only be used by the character in question, except possibly in rare
circumstances depending upon special effect. An Universal focus can be
used by anyone, with possible exceptions depending upon circumstances
and special effect.
If you have a Personal focus, the villain cannot take it and use it
against you, or anyone else, for that matter. However, you cannot give
it to a friend, even in an emergency. If you have a Universal focus,
the villain cannot use it against you, but neither can your friends
borrow it.
Example: A vibroblade sword built in a lab can be taken from you and
used to kill you, thus, it is Universal. The mystical sword made to
only be wielded by "the heir of clan McLomar" is Personal, as only one
person is "the heir of clan McLomar". This could also give you one of
those "rare circumstances" that I mentioned, if your kid sister also
qualifies as "the heir of clan McLomar", or your evil cousin who is
always trying to steal the "Sword of McLomar".
Filksinger
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:29:59 -0400
From: Josh Street <rjstreet@vnet.ibm.com>
Organization: IBM of Charlotte
Subject: Re: Powwow
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Okay....not meaning to rain on the parade or anything, but this is
slightly off topic.(How we got from the merits of Powwow vs. ICQ for
running games to this
escapes me, but that's off topic too.....).
> I, for one, never say that my race is American. That may be my
> nationality, but is certainly not my race. As a "race" American is
> made up
> of several sub-races (Caucasian, black, Asian, Hispanic,etc.) which
> are
> included in it as a whole, not just one. That's one of the best
> things
> about this country, IMHO, is the diversity. No other place on this
> planet
> has so many people from different backgrounds and ethniticities. I
> think
> that it is absolutely fantastic. Now, I have a whole different opinion
>
> about Illegal Aliens, but that's a different story entirely. :)
>
> Michelle
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
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>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
JD> Anyway, the Black Knight has his Sword of Light and Shield of
JD> Knight taken away from him (they behave like Foci). Then, when the
JD> Dramatically Appropriate Time occurs, he Instant Changes to his normal
JD> ID, and then Instant Changes right back, and now has all his Foci.
The Instant Change cannot be in the Foci, since by nature when his Foci
have been taken he cannot use any of their powers. Likewise, the sword and
shield cannot be Foci, since this too easilly circumvents the Limitations.
For similar reasons I would hesitate to use OHID, since a Limitation that
does not limit the character's use of the powers is worth no bonus
In other words, his weapons are "Foci" only by special effect.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: hero cannon?
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Date: 16 Oct 1997 15:44:26 -0400
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>>>>> "F" == Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> writes:
F> This seems to say that all listed books are official. You can find this
F> note in the rec.rpg.super-hero newsgroup.
It is less an issue of "canonicity" as core rules vs. optional rules. The
BBB, HSR, and CD are the core rules. All other officially published rules
are optional -- if you would, "officially published house rules".
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Japanese Hero's Leaping Ability
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>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
JD> It was to simulate him leaping, ending his leap on the *side* of a
JD> building, and then, when he gets another action (Phase) he leaps off.
Okay, there are *two* ways I have seen something like this: one is against
sheer surfaces (buildings), the other is against angled surfaces (canyon
walls and such).
The former I would do with a very slightly limited flight: must "stop"
against a surface at the end of each movement (-1/4).
The latter could be a gimmie for a character with Acrobatics, or an
Acrobatics roll may be required to maintain balance.
On third thought, the former could be done with Superleap, with Acrobatics
rolls required to balance on ledges and what-not that might be available on
the side of the building.
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From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Powwow
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:12:50 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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> > I couldn't count the number of caucasians who tell me their race is
> >American, where-as the guy next to them is 'chinese' (the guy who's family
> >came over in 1870...).
>
> I, for one, never say that my race is American. That may be my
> nationality, but is certainly not my race. As a "race" American is made up
> of several sub-races (Caucasian, black, Asian, Hispanic,etc.) which are
> included in it as a whole, not just one. That's one of the best things
> about this country, IMHO, is the diversity. No other place on this planet
> has so many people from different backgrounds and ethniticities. I think
> that it is absolutely fantastic. Now, I have a whole different opinion
> about Illegal Aliens, but that's a different story entirely. :)
>
Isn't it interesting how Illegal immigrants come up in these
conversations all the time.
"No I don't hate non-X's, but those Illegals..."
Anyway, an interesting note is that most Illegals in the US
are from Canada, second if not third is Mexico, Euro's come in very
high as well.
And yes, diversity is one of the few advantages the USA has over most,
though all other nations. It's also the strongest weakness. Since more
often than not it divides Americans.
But this is another side topic, not relevant to Champions... :)
X-Originating-IP: [206.88.2.1]
From: "Todd Hanson" <badtodd@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:01:53 PDT
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the Ratman Sayeth:
>>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
>
>JD> Anyway, the Black Knight has his Sword of Light and Shield
of
>JD> Knight taken away from him (they behave like Foci). Then, when the
>JD> Dramatically Appropriate Time occurs, he Instant Changes to his
normal
>JD> ID, and then Instant Changes right back, and now has all his Foci.
>The Instant Change cannot be in the Foci, since by nature when his Foci
>have been taken he cannot use any of their powers. Likewise, the sword
and
>shield cannot be Foci, since this too easilly circumvents the
Limitations.
>For similar reasons I would hesitate to use OHID, since a Limitation
that
>does not limit the character's use of the powers is worth no bonus
>
>In other words, his weapons are "Foci" only by special effect.
Actually, in this case it IS a limitation: from the time that the
(accessable?) foci is taken away, he is without them UNTIL HIS NEXT
ACTION. Now, for the attack part (sword) I would agree that this is no
limitation, but for the shield, this would definately qualify as SOME
kind of limitation. If villian A takes the focus, villian B (not to
mentioon C,D and E) can all shoot the Black Knight, and BK won't have
the benefit of his shield.
Not enough to qualify for foci limitation, as he can get it back with
his instant change, but definately enough to qualify for OHID.
Todd
-------------------------------------------------------
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at badtodd@dacmail.net :) thanks!
-------------------------------------------------------
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "TH" == Todd Hanson <badtodd@hotmail.com> writes:
TH> Actually, in this case it IS a limitation: from the time that the
TH> (accessable?) foci is taken away, he is without them UNTIL HIS NEXT
TH> ACTION.
Big deal. That's worth a -0 SFX limitation because it sure is not worth as
much as -1/4, which equates to being without the powers on a 16+ roll
*every* time he tries to use them.
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:15:43 -0700
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Powwow
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At 03:29 PM 10/16/97 -0400, Josh Street wrote:
>Okay....not meaning to rain on the parade or anything, but this is
>slightly off topic.(How we got from the merits of Powwow vs. ICQ for
>running games to this
>escapes me, but that's off topic too.....).
>
IIRC, it was because someone wanted to impress us all with his sensitivity
and compassion by complaining about the use of the name 'PowWow'. I don't
think very many people were impressed.
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: New Powers Plug-In (Or, I'm Impatient Enough Not To Wait)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:35:58 -0500
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> On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Jason A. Dour wrote:
>
> > * What HERO4 Power Advantages have BIG problems, and what are the
> fixes?
>
> Usable On Others; it shouldn't exist at all. There's no direct
> correlation
> between the usefulness of doing X to yourself and the usefulness of
> doing
> X to others, so it's silly to turn one type of Power into the other
> using
> a simple Power Modifier.
>
Actually, I can think of many reasons you might want a power
that is normally a self-only power. One in particular is regen.
Remember, Usable By Others (UBO) must be consciously used.
Without UOO, you can't regenerate someone who is unconscious.
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 16:26:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: New Powers Plug-In (Or, I'm Impatient Enough Not To Wait)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Rick Ryker writes:
>
> Actually, I can think of many reasons you might want a power
> that is normally a self-only power. One in particular is regen.
> Remember, Usable By Others (UBO) must be consciously used.
> Without UOO, you can't regenerate someone who is unconscious.
The problem isn't that there's no reason to _want_ a UAO power. The problem is
that the UAO mechanic is completely unbalanced, because the value of a UAO
power is frequently not closely related to the point cost.
The proper way to handle UAO power is probably via transform.
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:39:26 -0500
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> > According to HERO any characteristic bought as a power (through
> > advantages or limitations) is a Power for purposes of NCM.
<snip>
> > Our strongest normal human strongmen only have a strength of 20.
> > Think about it. STR 20 means you can lift 4 guys who weigh 220 lbs.
> > That's almost a half ton! <edited to preserve my sanity>
>
> That's not strictly true. You can still be a normal human being and
> go over the NCM, at double the cost. 20 is a soft limit for STR, not
> a hard one. This is so you can have characters like Schwarzenegger
> or Tor Johnson.
>
> > If you magically gave him STR via an Aid spell, he would only get
> > half the STR points. Why? Because this power works on power
> > points, not on absolute STR points.
>
> This point has not been firmly established yet, unfortunately. It's
> been done both ways in the published material, and there's no
> specific reference to this in the BBB.
>
> > P.S. If you want me to pull out my dusty old rule book, I will.
>
> Maybe you'd better. I need some references on all this.
>
Quoting from my "Champions" 4th Edition, 1st Printing.
(Is this the BBB you guys keep referring to? Big Blue Book?)
CATEGORIES OF POWERS
Pg 53: ADJUSTMENT POWERS: "These powers work by adding to or
subtracting from the number of Character Points in a Power or in a
Characteristic."
POWER DESCRIPTIONS
Pg 58: ABSORPTION: "With this Adjustment Power the cahracter may
absorb
the BODY damage of an attack and add that energy, as Character Points,
to a specific Power or Characteristic. Each body absorbed becomes
1 Character Point."
Pg 58: AID: "With this Adjustment Power, a character may increase one
of his
or someone else's Characteristics or Powers. The cost is 5 Character
Points
for 1d6 of Aid. The Character Points of Aid apply directly to the
Active points
of the Power being Aided."
Pg 60: CHARACTERISTICS: "Characteristics can be purchased with Power
Limitations, Power Advantages, and Power Frameworks, just like Powers.
For these purposes a Characteristic should be treated as a Standard
Power.
The cost is computed as if the Characteristic were a Power."
[Various rulings regarding Power Limitations, Power Frameworks, and
Figured Characteristics follow in this section of the book.]
Pg 63: DISPEL: "If the remaining total exceeds the Active Point total
of the target
Power, the target Power is dispelled."
Pg 64: DRAIN: "The total remaining is the total of Active Points lost
from the
affected Power or Characteristic."
Pg 85: SUPPRESS: "the reamining total is the number of Active Points
of the
target's Power or Characteristic that don't work."
Pg 87: TRANSFER: "The character may Transfer 1d6 of Active Points of
an
opponent's Characteristic or Power for 15 Character Points."
Pg 122: NORMAL CHARACTERISTIC MAXIMA
"This represents a character who is a "normal" in a world of superheroes
or other super-powerful beings. This Disadvantage can only be purchased
by characters in a campaign where there are normally no restriction on
Characteristics (a superheroic campaign). Characters with this
Disadvantage
have the same characteristic maxima as other normals, and to raise
characteristics above that level costs twice the usual number of points.
Powers that raise the Characteristics (Growth, Density Increase) affect
Characteristics normally and are not counted against the
Chararacteristic
maxima." [Table of maxima goes here] "This advantage also forces the
character to pay the "normal" rates for increasing his movement rates
above the normal human maximum. Characters with this disadvantage
can also purchase the Disadvantage Age to still further restrict their
Characteristics. Normal Characteristic Maxima is worth 20 points."
I would insert the word "directly" right after the phrase "Powers that
raise
Characteristics", because these powers raise Characteristics directly;
that is, they don't raise the active power points, they raise the
powers.
(I'm speaking of Growth and Density Increase here.)
All of the adjustment powers raise the Active Points of a Power or
Characteristic. Which is why someone with NCM would gain more or
suffer less from Absorption/Aid/Drain/Suppress/Transfer.
Also, note that Adjustment Powers must target a specific power or
characteristic.
If the attack is against the characters STR, it come off his unmodified
STR.
For it to come off of his STR-Taken-As-A-Power, the attack would have to
target
the STR-Taken-As-A-Power itself (focus or whatever).
The bottom line is: If the NCM doesn't fit the SFX, don't allow it.
But usually it is well suited (no pun intended) for most "normal"
characters.
-RICK
X-Sender: mactyre@mail.aci.net
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 16:50:14 -0700
From: Matthew Mactyre <mactyre@aci.net>
Subject: Re: What a Timeline is truely good for
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At 10:06 AM 10/16/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote:
>> can have long reaching effects. I hardly ever make up a time line,
choosing
>> instead to let the game dictate many of the events that effect the
players.
>> I'm sure that time lines can be interesting for the person making them
up,
>> kind of like making random dungeons in the "old days." <grin>
<big snip>
> Let's look at a comicbook example. The whole marvel mutant thing.
>They've used forshadowing for years to let us know that something was
going
>to happen someday. Put on a well managed Timeline Flowchart, this would
>allow the authors to keep it consistant, as well as make sure that hints
>dropped were followed up on.
>
> I don't know how I could run anything more than a simple game without
>such a flowchart. The Timeline is an invaluable tool for structuring
several
>elements of a world:
> 1. It's paradigms
> 2. It's history
> 3. Forshadowing
> 4. Maintaining Consistancy
> 5. Indexing the greater detailed elements of the world
Good, Brian, I'm glad you can make such an intricate gaming world via your
time lines. I like to watch what type of world is brought into being from
the player input. I have a rough idea of what is going on in the
"universe"
at large, but don't structure the game in the same manor you do. I find it
to constraining, and have had too many GMs that are more interested in
their
plot/time line then the joy of playing, often railroading players into
actions they don't what to take in order to further the GMs plot.
This is a total personal preference; heck, I actually need a critical mass
of
players (somewhere around 5) to even be able to sustain a game for longer
than one or two sessions. Unlike the authors of Marvel, I'm not a writer.
I'm more interested in myself and my players enjoying themselves.
Regards,
Matthew
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_________________
Matthew Mactyre
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PGP Key available on request
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If you can't describe it with numbers, it isn't a science.
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: New Powers Plug-In (Or, I'm Impatient Enough Not To Wait)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:58:05 -0500
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> Rick Ryker writes:
> >
> > Actually, I can think of many reasons you might want a power
> > that is normally a self-only power. One in particular is regen.
> > Remember, Usable By Others (UBO) must be consciously used.
> > Without UOO, you can't regenerate someone who is unconscious.
>
> The problem isn't that there's no reason to _want_ a UAO power. The
> problem is
> that the UAO mechanic is completely unbalanced, because the value of a
> UAO
> power is frequently not closely related to the point cost.
>
> The proper way to handle UAO power is probably via transform.
>
And here I have to disagree. The Transform rules make it extremely
hard to
do a major transformation -- on purpose. The idea was If you can kill a
person
with a power, you should be able to transform them. This is why you
have to exceed
twice your opponents BODY. If it was a damage attack, he would be dead.
The Usable By Others (UAO) Power Advantage can be used to turn a
normally
non-offensive power, such as Teleport or Shrink, into an offensive one.
(I may not have the ability to kill you Mister BrickHouse, but I can
shrink you
and put you over there!)
This advantage brings its own limitations: you must be in conscious
control,
you must pay END, you must make an attack roll, the attack has no range,
you cannot affect objects greater than normal human mass, and you must
define a reasonably common set of defenses which will cancel the attack.
(All of this is unless of course you pay for additional Power
Advantages).
-RICK
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Oct 97 00:01:00 GMT
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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h > From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
h > Subject: Re: Grey Areas
h >
h > Multo (giving your example a name) gains 15 experience and decides to
h > spend them on the two multiforms, increasing each by 50 points. To
h > preserve the formalism of 100 base points, I suppose that we add the
h > points as "experience" on the character sheets for the multiforms. So
h >
h > Multo = 100 base + 150 disads + 15 experience = 265
h > Mult1 = 100 base + 50 disads + 50 experience = 200
h > Mult2 = 50 base + 0 disads + 50 experience = 100
There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of how Multiform
characters spend Exp. A multi form is build on the same point
base as the base form. So, if you have a 100 + 150 disads +15 exp
base form, then each of the other forms has the same number of base
points, and the same number of exp (not all of which may be spent)
and a max of 150 in disads. In your example the breakdown would
be:
Multo = 100 +150 +15 = 265 (50 pts in Multiform)
Mult1 = 100 + 85 +15 = 200
Mult2 = 100 + 0 + 0 = 100 (and has 15 unspent exp)
The character has only earned 15 exp, there is *no way* his
multiforms could have 50 exp! Yes, this does mean adding
disads after the start of the game, which is a little odd.
More often, a Multiform character would keep his disads the
same, and only spend enough exp on multiform to allow each
form to spend the exp he's earned.
So, Multo would probably spend 3 exp to give Mult 1 15 more
points. Mult 2 is so small he hasn't even finish spending his
base points yet, so he could add up to 6 or 7 points on him
if he wanted to. looking something like this:
Multo = 100 + 150 + 15 = 265 (44.5 pts in Multiform)
Mult1 = 100 + 50 + 15 = 165
Mult2 = 100 + 0 + 15 = 115
Finally, you can buy down the disads of Multiforms with earned
exp, even if you don't put any points into multiform, because
*your* piont structure has changed:
Multo = 100 +150 + 15 = 265 (35 pts in Multiform)
Mult1 = 100 + 35 + 15 = 150
Mult2 = 50 + 0 + 0 = 50 (15 unspent exp)
h > > Personally, I think that you should only be paying for the base
h > points in
h > > the form anyway...
h >
h > Disagree: that would make multiform the same price as a follower.
The way disads work for multiform and duplication is pretty confusing,
cutting them out of the cost calculation might be helpful, though
you'd probably want to increase the cost of multiform, say by starting
it at 0 pts... Multiform cost: 30pts for a 0 base pt multiform +5/1pt,
15pts +10/1 for each additional form. Forms cannot have more base points
than the base forms base pts + exp, and cannot have more disads than
the normal champaign limit.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58 * I am not a Rules Lawyer...I'm a Rules Activist.
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Oct 97 00:13:02 GMT
Subject: Effective Armour Managem
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h > From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
h > Subject: Effective Armour Management (was Norse God of Thunder)
h > I had a player once who wanted to build himself a suit of armour as a
h > vehicle and pump the vast majority of his points into it.
h > At the time I said "NO WAY!" as it far too munchkin-excessive for me
h > (and I
h > will usually let you do anything which isn't specifically banned in
h > the
h > rules)
Because the Hero vehicle rules are so bad, I've always had a similar
reaction.
h > However, when I was thinking about this one I realised how many
h > problems
h > this overcomes.
h >
h > 1:Damage to the armour. How many times have you seen Iron Man get hit
h > damaged. If you have your armour Only in Hero ID then you can
h > build a suit of armour that will work at it's peak capacity until it
h > falls apart.
Actually, the OIHID armor would *never* fall apart. A breakable focus
is the only logical way to go. Unfortunately, the way foci are bought,
it would have to have a pretty low defense to be vulnerable - probably
too low to be practical. Vehicle only makes sense for a large suit of
'armor' that can cary other passengers/cargo.
h > 2:Having more than one suit of armour. Iron Man at one point was
h > maintaining his Standard Red/Gold armour, a suit of stealth armour, a s
h > space armour and a suit of undersea armour. He also had a old spare sui
h > which Rodey used to back him up when things got really rough. It's a lo
h > easier to simulate this with a couple of vehicles than with a set of "O
h > in Stealth/Space/Undersea armours" disads and those expensive "usuable
h > others" for the ones you are not using.
h >
It's certainly *cheaper* - way too cheap in fact. I'd insist on a focused
multiform and let Rohdes pay for his own armor (after all Iron Man is paying
for him as a follower...
> 3: Where the hell does he get all the points to build these damn suits
h > anyway??? To build a realistic Iron Man clone you need far too many
h > points
h > to consider him a reasonable starters character. At least this way you
h > have
h > a decent head start if you are trying to do it all within 150 pts!
Assume Iron man gets only one or two exp per issue.... multiply that
by the number of Iron Man issues, and Avengers issues, and Force Works,
and Guest Appearances.... this guy could be built on 1000+pts easy.
h > So, its far to points efficient, but it works.
h > After all, if you take his armour away (or give it a good sticking)
h > then he
h > stops getting the benefits..........
h >
h > How about it? Comments, opinions....
h >
h > Thanks,
h > Chris.
I've never seen a Champions vehicle I actually liked.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58 * Goodmanized for your Frustration.
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:13:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: New Powers Plug-In (Or, I'm Impatient Enough Not To Wait)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Rick Ryker writes:
> And here I have to disagree. The Transform rules make it extremely
> hard to
> do a major transformation -- on purpose. The idea was If you can kill a
> person
> with a power, you should be able to transform them. This is why you
> have to exceed
> twice your opponents BODY. If it was a damage attack, he would be dead.
True. That's why using transform to, say, teleport someone, isn't a major
transform. It's a minor transform ;). But, for example, extra-dimensional
movement usable against others _should_ be equal in cost to a major transform,
its just as disabling.
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Oct 97 00:54:04 GMT
Subject: Re: Powwow
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h >
h > > You can get powwow at http://www.tribal.com/powwow/
h >
h >
h > That's assuming one wants to support a racist company that uses
h > onld sterotypes to sell its product, not to mention bastardizing what
h > is a
h > cultural concept.
h >
h > Thank you, but no thanks.
h >
h >
h > -Tim Gilberg
Hmmm... This brings a Hero-related question to mind... how big
of a psych lim is knee-jerk Political Correctness?
We've seen the 'Discrimination' disadvantage in a few historical
settings (Western Hero, GAC), there are some disadvantages peculiar
to the present as well.
-Opal
"Anything can be on-topic"
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 17 Oct 97 00:58:06 GMT
Subject: Re: New Powers Plug-In (
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com
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h > From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
h > Cc: champ-l@omg.org
h > Subject: Re: New Powers Plug-In (Or, I'm Impatient Enough Not To Wait)
h > To: champ-l@omg.org
h >
h >
h > > That is the trend of the conversion, yes, and Bruce and Steve have
h > > both said as much on the mailing lists. But it is nowhere in
h > writing,
h > > leaving Fuzion players to wait goodness only knows how long to get a
h > > better creation system, or to buy a book for a different game that
h > they
h > > may never play. That's why this project exists.
Well, if a Hero player wants the background from New Melinium, he's
also buying a book for a system he'll never play. I don't see the
difference.
h > That seems to be the problem here. I'd really recommend an
h > investment into Heroth, even if you do eventually play Fuzion. It's a
h > rules system that works quite well with only a few problem areas.
h > It's
h > easy to tell that its is a work over 10 years in the making. Fuzion,
h > OTOH, is a first edition product suffering from the first edition
h > syndrome
h > -- too many holes to easily plug. I'd wait 'till second edition
h > before
h > fully judging it.
h >
h >
h > -Tim Gilberg
h >
I have to agree. Fuzion is meant to be a simpler system than Hero,
throwing in a Hero-level creation system is pointless. It would make
Fuzion too complicated. Remeber the old KISS addage:
Keep It Simple, Steve!
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: Foci and Instant Change
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:00:36 -0500
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INSTANT CHANGE: "A character with this Special Power can
instantly change from one identity to another and back again."
"A character can change into any set of clothes he wants for
10 Character Points."
This doesn't say anything about lugging focii around.
ACCIDENTAL CHANGE: No. This doesn't seem right.
Any of his enemies could repeat the magical incantation.
(OIHI) "Only In Hero ID can also be used to simulate characters
who seem to have a Focus but somehow never lose it." (- 1/4)
Well, your character lost his Sword, if only for a phase.
The OIHI limitation is clearly not enough to model this.
FOCUS: The Sword: Well, it was Accessible, and Obvious.
And it obviously wasn't Immobile or Bulky or Expendable.
Breakable or Unbreakable? An unbreakable focus can be broken
in the one way defined by the character when it was bought.
An unbreakable focus can still be stolen though.
If an unbreakable focus is stolen, it has to be retrieved, it can't
be created again very easily. Not retrieved, not re-made.
A breakable focus can be repaired, rebuilt, or replaced by the
character with some effort. No break, and no effort here, though.
Personal or Universal? Well, universal because his enemy tried
to whack him with it. (Unless his enemy also qualifies under
the special effect of the Universal part of the focus.)
Although it has most of the characteristics of a Focus,
I would say that this was not a Focus, just a special effect.
The question is: How did the player lose his special effect weapon?
I would say that this wasn't a focus and he could have just
wished it back into his hand instead of taking a phase to change
clothes and a phase to change back. (5 seconds each)
If it was a focus, then Hero ID or no Hero ID he lost his focus.
I seem to recall Thor losing his hammer at least once.
No, that was after he lost his mortal identity (Only In Hero ID).
I don't think Thor's hammer was a Focus until after he lost
his mortal identity.
-RICK
----------------------------------------
All quotes are from Hero Games' "Super Role-playing Game and HERO System
Rules;
Champions: The Super Role-Playing Game (R)" Fourth Edition, First
Printing dated 1989.
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:02:04 +0000
Subject: Re: Non-Stereotypical Minority Supers
Reply-to: ghoyle1@airmail.net
Priority: normal
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> I think that is the key. Don't take the standard sterotypes.
> Don't put your Indian in Breechcloth and have him cary a Stone Axe --
> Unless, of course, he's just woken up from a 500 year sleep. (Similar
> things have been done with other Historicals). Above all, don't just call
> the character an "Indian" or a "Native American". He or she has a tribe
> (or tribes) and will know its unique features. That's what gets me most
> -- when everything is just thrown under the heading "Native American" and
> individual differences are ignored.
Where can we find some information on what the differences between
the different tribes would be? Can you recommend any books on the
subject?
Guy
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:03:35 -0500
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> At 06:39 PM 10/16/97 -0500, Rick Ryker wrote:
> > I would insert the word "directly" right after the phrase "Powers
> that
> > raise Characteristics", because these powers raise Characteristics
> > directly; that is, they don't raise the active power points, they
> raise
> > the powers. (I'm speaking of Growth and Density Increase here.)
>
> Reasonably enough, except that by inserting any word, you've moved
> into
> discussing your house rules, which rather weakens your arguments. :]
>
Actually no. Even without the added word, the passage still distinctly
refers
to Powers that affect Characteristics not Characteristic Points.
-RICK
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: New Powers Plug-In (Or, I'm Impatient Enough Not To Wait)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:09:58 -0500
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> Rick Ryker writes:
> > And here I have to disagree. The Transform rules make it extremely
> > hard to
> > do a major transformation -- on purpose. The idea was If you can
> kill a
> > person
> > with a power, you should be able to transform them. This is why you
> > have to exceed
> > twice your opponents BODY. If it was a damage attack, he would be
> dead.
>
> True. That's why using transform to, say, teleport someone, isn't a
> major
> transform. It's a minor transform ;). But, for example,
> extra-dimensional
> movement usable against others _should_ be equal in cost to a major
> transform,
> its just as disabling.
>
Why? They aren't physically or mentally altered. ;)
That is why the UAO Power Advantage has been marked with a Stop Sign.
On pg 51, "Powers that can radically alter a scenario have been marked
with a:"
[picture of a stop sign] "The GM should carefully consider the impact of
these
Powers before permitting them in a scenario."
HERO put all the rules in the rule book and said, GM's it's your call if
you allow
some of the more "efficent" (as Hero calls them) powers in your
campaign.
[paraphrasing is mine]
-RICK
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:10:31 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Subject: Powwow -- Response to the response
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You've all seemed to have quite a bit to say, and I will make a
response to everyone quickly now that I've had time to gather some
thoughts and info. [this is a little off-topic, if you haven't guessed]
I will agree with what many have said, but Todd first, the the use
of the word Powwow isn't necessarily racist. My original post was quickly
worded.
I personally was familiar with the Tribal site and Powwow before
this discussion. I just went back to check it out again yesterday. My
views on the sight shows a group of caucasians with a token Native
American to get some Grant money. They use Native American concepts, but
not in original context nor with original importance or spiritualism.
They discuss a philosophy, but it is far from Native American religions
that I know of -- they support a "warrior's way", but only with one
lip-service page. I find much of the site's content to take a non-serious
and jokular tone in regards to Native American culture and spirituality.
This brings me to the interview with the "Prophet". Check it out,
please. They've put together an anti-everything rant page at the expense
of some poor old man. I find it a sad parody of the respect that most
Natives have for their Elders.
That said, the term "powwow" is not merely a racial term. It is
actually a European translation of the original tribal speech. It does,
however, refer to a meeting, nay a gathering, which held particular
importance in the spiritual lives of Native Americans. The songs, dances,
and ceremonies that occur at powwows are long steeped in tradition. Using
the term for an internet chat program -- used to discuss such important
things from cats to tv shows to rpgs to various sexual perversions --
seems to me to bastardize the entire concept. I would compare this to
using some word that represents an important Christian tradition as the
name for some sort of internet program. What kind of response would I get
if I called my communications software "communion"?
On to sports teams. I only recently have set my mind to the
wrongness that many Native American -themed names are. As was earlier
pointed out, such names as "Redskins" and "Injuns" (I hate that last
especially) are quite synonimous with "Blackies", "Chinks", "Spics",
"Kites", "Whops", "Slants", and "Krauts". These are truely racist terms
to name a team, but only "Redskins" and "Injuns" seem to be used. Why
aren't teams named after the others. Heck, just rename them to "Dirty
Savages" and be done with it. These teams, and ones with less derogatary
names, take Native American concepts, ideas, symbols, and images and use
only the most steriotyped. We get to see Atlanta Braves fans do the
Tomahawk Chop. We get to hear the wild chant the MCHS (my highschool's)
band at football and baseball games.
The issue of using other peoples as Sports Team names have been
brought up. Why is it okay to use Fighting Irish and Vikings, it has been
asked. Mostly because those names are representative of the area fans.
The Minnesota Vikings are in a heavily Scandinavian area with much pride
in thier history, including the Vikings. Notre Dame has connections to
Ireland as well as a surrounding community with many Irish that take pride
in the fighting spirit the name represents. Similar to San Francisco and
its 49rs (Try naming a team the Fags out there and see how far you get,
btw). Similar to Green Bay and its Packers.
The difference with Indian team name is that most were chosen
without consideration to native Native populatations. Some try to honour
their namesakes and do a pretty good job. Others bastardize the whole
concept -- ie Atlanta Braves, Kansas City Chiefs, etc. I would really
have no problem if a team naming itself after a local tribe went to the
tribe for permission and tried to make its logo and uniform representative
of the name. I'd also have no problem with, say, an Native American
reservation college calling its sports team the Braves. That is
representative much as the Vikings are to Minnesota.
All this brings me to my point of Cultural theft. The taking of
the term powwow for use of an internet chat program takes the term away
from the culture that originated it. The meaning is stolen. This goes
further. There are many more examples where cultural ideas, words, and
beliefs are stolen by others and used to, bluntly, make money. Look at
many of the so called spiritualists on the net. Most are trying to make a
fast buck by promising spiritual knowledge from the "Indians" or
"Druids", etc.
Some have used their own heritage as an arguement to refute me.
Please, don't be so egotistical. While I admit your heritages are
important for forming your opinions, mine is just as important for forming
mine. My grandfather was born and raised on a reservation in Minnesota.
It was he who gave me my granted name at a naming ceremony. I hope to
make it to my reservation myself in the near future in order to give my
services teaching for a few years and learning the language of the Ojibwa
tribe. That's my personal background in the matter. My last name is
Gilberg (which is Swedish -- and no, I have no problem with the Viking
team name, the MN Vikings are my favorite football team, in fact) from my
dad's side.
I'm sorry to take so long with this post. I'm sorry to not have
further elaborated earlier to remove some knee-jerk arguments. I'm not
proposing that powwow be shut down. I don't beleive that is right. I do
beleive it is a product that I would be hypocitical to use. I also felt
it important to state the fact that I don't agree with the company or its
product. Free speech is an important right to me, but it is one that I
feel comes with a responsibility to use when necessary.
Thank you, and if anyone has responses, please e-mail privately.
The list doesn't need any more traffic on this topic.
-Tim Gilberg; Ney-Bon-Wah-Queechi-Do
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:29:49 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
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At 05:47 AM 10/14/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 10:24 AM 10/13/97 -0700, Mark Lemming wrote:
>>Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>>> Now, to bring this back to Champions -- anyone besides me been
>>> tempted to run a session or two with Bill Gates as the big villian?
>>> Next time I'm in the mood for humor I'm gonna do something of the sort. Or
>>> maybe Foxbat kidnaps him for some reason . . . hmmm. Nope, won't
>>> work, the players wouldn't want to rescue him.
>>
>>A friend has him as a recurring villian. He's actually an ancient
>>dragon that has assumed a human form and is slowly taking over the
>>world. Except for the dragon part he's just like this world's
>>version...
>
> Or maybe he's a robotic vehicle for a hamster bent on world domination.
>
I don't know sounds a little too... Earth C- / Captain Carrot / Zoo Crew
-ish.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:34:49 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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At 05:49 AM 10/15/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> I'd call those two forms "incredibly different"! Just compare Jaguar's
>two forms in the BBB (a quite similar situation) to see how different they
>can be! I mean, what are you asking for -- a teenager who transforms into
>a Trans Am?
>
Criminy! What's with all the references? That's Teen Turbo, right?
Saturday morning cartoon. Also did something similar in the "Pole Position"
cartoon, where two drivers turned into their cars with cheesy computer effects.
- Jerry
From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:42:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: hero cannon?
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Hey all...
I thought this was a very interesting reply to a question about which rule
books are 'cannon' and which are unofficial. This seems to say that all
listed books are official. You can find this note in the rec.rpg.super-hero
newsgroup.
Subject: Re: Champions 4th Edition = Rule Bible?
From: herogames@aol.com (Hero Games)
Date: Wed, Oct 15, 1997 12:16 EDT
Message-id: <19971015161601.MAA18792@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Rules for the Hero System can be found in:
Champions 4th Edition Deluxe Hardbound
Fantasy Hero
Hero System Almanac I
Hero System Almanac II
Dark Champions
An Eye For An Eye
Western Hero
Cyber Hero
Horror Hero
The Ultimate Martial Artist
The Ultimate Mentalist
The Ultimate Super Mage
Issues of Adventurers Club magazine
All of which are available from Hero Games. See our web site at
www.herogames.com for product and ordering information. If you send us email
with your postal address, we'll send you a copy of the Hero News, our
newsletter with infromation about new and upcoming products.
Also, on our web site you'll find Digital Hero, a webzine with new articles
posted weekly for the Hero System and Fuzion.
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games, www.herogames.com
<Send email with your postal address to herogames@aol.com to get on the Hero
Plus mailing list; you'll get all the latest Hero news!>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:19:14 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Non-Stereotypical Minority Supers
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> What sort of Native American heroes would be considered
> non-stereotypical and non-offensive? Most of the Marvel ones had some sort
> of "Indian" motif. I somewhat imagined that some would do that. I'd like
> to interject some minority Supers into my games (probably as NPCs) but would
> like them to be non-stereotypes. Yes, some will probably be stereotypical,
> but I want some to be surprising, and I would like them all to have depth.
> A little help (and some opinions) would be greatly appreciated.
Actually, I've found the comic supers to be pretty good, for the
most part. Nothing as bad as Tonto was in the Lone Ranger. Warpath
(that's the name, right) from X-Force is actually a favored character of
mine, mostly as he does hold knowledge of and reverence for his culture
and history. It leads to some moral issues and emotional issues at times.
My favorite PC/NPC character is Derrik Tallcloud, an ex-AIM
millitant, long-lifed mutant, college Anthropology Professor,
high-physical-stat mystic with gun. I even wrote up his (quite powerful)
spirit visions. He is of the Ojibwa tribe, and speaks a few Native
languages.
I think that is the key. Don't take the standard sterotypes.
Don't put your Indian in Breechcloth and have him cary a Stone Axe --
Unless, of course, he's just woken up from a 500 year sleep. (Similar
things have been done with other Historicals). Above all, don't just call
the character an "Indian" or a "Native American". He or she has a tribe
(or tribes) and will know its unique features. That's what gets me most
-- when everything is just thrown under the heading "Native American" and
individual differences are ignored.
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:09:58 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
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>JD> As far as OIHID: what if he has a Secret ID? or if the Armor is really
>JD> uncomfortable : ) ? Or has limited time constraints? Would OIHID then
>JD> be appropriate?
>
>OHID means that there is "difficulty" changing between secret and heroic
>identities. In the description given there is little or no dificulty
>apparant in switching identities. Thus, no bonus.
>
So, Instant Change means you can't have OIHID?!?!?!?
Black Knight seems to have (at least) OIHID on his Powers, and has Instant
Change, Incantations to get to his Hero ID. I thought that it was legal to
give OIHID for this...
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:16:51 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: RE: Grey Areas
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>> I like this plan, at least provisionally. I've never liked the
>> rule of
>> paying for points in "secondary entities" that are covered by
>> Disadvantages. It's like paying for them twice, or taking
>> Disadvantages on
>> a character without *really* getting points for them.
>>
>There is a fundamental difference between a follower bought as a disad
>and a follower bought with character points.
>
I agree with your follow-up statements almost completely. It's just that
the other poster wasn't talking about this.
He was referring to the fact that a Multiform built on 100 base + 100 Disads
would cost the Base form 40 points, but the Multi form would have to take
the 100pts of Disads. He said it was like paying twice... once with
points, and once with Disads that will hinder your other form.
- Jerry
now the whole *thread* is a gray area...
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re:Powwow
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 23:56:27 -0700
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Recently, someone told me that what I said in my post was well said. I
do thank them, but frankly I am beginning to be sorry I said it. While
I and others tried to avoid making accusations against or assumptions
about the original poster, not everyone has been so courteous. A
number of the posters seemed to be making "knee-jerk" assumptions by
assuming the original poster had been doing so himself.
When I made that post, I made a point of _asking_ what, exactly, was
offensive about the company or the program name. The reason for this
is that I wanted to know. I don't _know_ that the original poster was
simply giving a "knee-jerk" reaction.
The poster criticized the company. That could be simply because they
used American Indian imagery, and it invoked a knee-jerk PC reaction.
Or it may be that they know more about the company than I do, and had
good reason to criticize it.
The poster referred to "powwow" as a cultural concept. That could be
simply an assumption that any use of such concepts from a minority
group is racist. Or it could be because a powwow is, according to some
of my sources, at least partially a spiritual or religious ritual, and
thus he objects the way a Christian might object to it being named
"prayer meeting", especially considering some of the things talked
about.
I think that it is excessive to repeatedly accuse the original poster
of a "knee-jerk PC reaction", at least until they have a chance to
respond.
Filksinger
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:01:55 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Unbalanced Mental Power ?
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> If someone gets a telepathy, and very good mind scan and ego attack
>for example. He can make a telepathy link with someone of his team, and
>then away from the danger of the battle, and receiving information about
>the battle from his partner he could just mind scan and ego attack any
>opponent his partner could detect, being almost completely safe. And he
>could even get these powers by an Elemental Control.
> Is this right ? What do you think about this ?
>
Personally, I've always ran Mind Scan as being (effectively) AE: Radius and
No Range. So, the Mentalist would have to Scan in a constant radius around
himself, including *all* the minds in the area, with the possible exception
of specifically named minds that he could ignore because he knew them.
But, otherwise, yeah, I suppose this is rule legal. I don't find it
*particularly* heroic, but that could be argued, too. Maybe the Mentalist
is a cripple? Has to stay back at base in his life support unit? Have him
run up against a Mental nasty, and then he gets locked up in Mental combat
while the rest of the team is in regular combat...
- Jerry
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Non-Stereotypical Minority Supers
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:31:45 -0700
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From:On Thursday, October 16, 1997 9:37 PM, Jeremiah Driscoll
> To kind of segue from the "Pow-wow" discussion (if it could
be
>called that)...
>
> What sort of Native American heroes would be considered
>non-stereotypical and non-offensive? Most of the Marvel ones had
some sort
>of "Indian" motif. I somewhat imagined that some would do that. I'd
like
>to interject some minority Supers into my games (probably as NPCs)
but would
>like them to be non-stereotypes. Yes, some will probably be
stereotypical,
>but I want some to be surprising, and I would like them all to have
depth.
>A little help (and some opinions) would be greatly appreciated.
>
That's a very good question. I have a related question, about how to
know when a stereotype _is_ offensive.
Not long ago, I had an idea for a NPC who might be an honorable-enemy
type villain, might be a hero, and might be different things at
different times. However, I couldn't quite decide if he was an
offensive stereotype. I didn't object to a non-offensive stereotype-
at least _some_ martial artists in a campaign probably _should_ be
Asian, if only to avoid a strange anti-stereotype stereotype. ("He
can't be a ninja, he's Japanese.")
He would have been a paranormal with the ability to create mental
illusions and project energy. He would, by strong preference, have
used antique American Indian garb (I hadn't decided what tribe, yet),
have used his illusions combined with his energy projection to create
spears, arrows, or stone throwing axes for killing attacks, and have
some sort of ritual (a "spirit dance", or something) to project his
enemies or friends into his illusions. Lastly, he would have a "coup
stick", which would be a 0 Range NND EB.
If he had been a sometimes-villain rather than a outright hero, it
would have been because of an obsession with driving the white man out
of his people's (whoever they were, I hadn't decided) territory. At
any rate, he wouldn't have been Tonto, that's for sure.
The main reason I haven't written him up is that I can't quite decide
if he's an offensive stereotype. Any ideas?
Filksinger
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:01:34 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: RE: Foci and Instant Change
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Rick Ryker wrote:
>The Only In Hero ID restrictions cannot be circumvented just by having
>Instant Change. First of all, you have to change. Second, you may not
>be able to change freely for psychological or practical reasons.
>("Well, Lois is in trouble. But I can't change into Superman in the
>middle
>of this crowd. I need to get to a phone booth quick!")
>I know this is not a good example. A better one would have Thor's alter
>ego
>having to duck behind a partition or something else to hide behind so he
>can
>hit the floor with his walking stick. Which by the way is Instant
>Change with
>Power Limitations of OAF and "must hit stick/hammer on ground/floor".
>
>If your campaign is nothing but fighting all the time and the characters
>never
>need to sleep or change into their non-combat personas, then OIHID is
>not
>worth anything. If your campaign has a fair amount of non-combat time,
>and/or the character is in his non Hero ID at least part of the time,
>then it
>is worth full value, because the Powers are limited for the time the
>character
>stays in non-HERO ID. Just because he has Instant Change doesn't mean
>he will always change back and forth. The fact that the character in
>the
>example that started this thread did a back to back Instant Change out
>of
>and back into his Hero ID is something the GM will have to come up with
>consequences for. Make the PC lose his Secret ID disadvantage.
>Maybe give him a Public ID disadvantage. Where is the media in all
>this?
>"Mr. PlainGuy, would you please tell the world what it's like to be able
>to
>change into SuperDuperBoy any time you want to?" "No comment."
>"But Mr. PlainGuy, the world wants to know!"
>"Mommy, can you ask Mr. PlainGuy if he can turn into SuperDuperBoy and
>rescue my kitty cat for me? Please?" "FLASH! SuperDuperBoy refuses
>to save little girl's kitty!"
>If that doesn't work or no one else was around at the time of the
>change,
>remember that the villian now knows who SuperDuperBoy is in his non-Hero
>ID.
>Time to have the villian make SuperDuperBoy's life a real pain.
>Hmmm. Only thing I see here is a GM who is not enforcing the disads.
>
*lol*
Well, actually, the example is taken from the most recent Heroes For Hire
comic, #6. But I'll let John Ostrander know he's not enforcing the Black
Knight's Disads...
Honestly, I asked to see how this Powers were implemented. *I* never
thought you couldn't get OIHID and Instant Change, but Rat (a very
by-the-booker) said you couldn't. That was more my incredulity rather than
a true question.
Your other points on OIHID are *quite* valid. Dane (the Black Knight) still
wouldn't be able to change in the middle of a crowd. And this Power *could*
just be a SFX thing, where, now that he's done it once, it won't surprise
the villains again (well, it won't surprise the readers).
The more I think about it, his Powers *aren't* Foci, but they *are* OIHID.
That's why he was able to surprise Ransak when he suddenly "regained" his
sword. He never lost it on his character sheet... it's like those guys
with guns that aren't foci.
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:06:25 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
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Stainless Steel Rat emotionlessly intoned:
>"A Limitation that does not limit the character is worth no bonus."
>
Did you have to waste our time just to chant? Our (mine and Rick Ryker's)
contention is that it *is* a Limitation. Possibly not a *combat* oriented
Limitation... but then, if you discount those, get rid of 75% of the
Disadvantages on your sheet, too.
- Jerry
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 03:03:29 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Powwow
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Filksinger wrote:
<....>
> The poster criticized the company. That could be simply because they
> used American Indian imagery, and it invoked a knee-jerk PC reaction.
> Or it may be that they know more about the company than I do, and had
> good reason to criticize it.
<...>
Although one of the first responses was information to the effect
that the company presenting the software was being run by the very
ethnic group in question, thus (I guess) was using the term(s) as
'empowering' language.
Isn't it interesting that when a person uses certain words to
describe or refer to a person or 'icon' of another culture, it is
'bigoted' or 'insensitive', but when a person uses those same words to
refer to their own people of cultural icans, they are 'empowering'
words?
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 03:24:09 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
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> Guy sed;
> >
> >
> >I don't think every little detail about the whole history of
> >superheroes should be determined from the outset; thgis does tend to
> >stifle creativity among players. But using a timeline for keeping
> >track of important information can be crucial.
>
> Then Shelley sed;
>
> Ah, I see there is a moderate among us! =) I see what you're saying, Guy
> -- makes perfect sense. I think one reason I don't worry about writing
> things down anymore is that I game with people I really know well. It's
> enough for me to say, "The public looks on paranormals with suspicion" and
> leave it at that, because they know me well enough to know that it's only a
> matter of time before a relevant plot pops up which explores things in
> depth. If people ask me questions about specifics (what was the role of
> paranormals during the Korean Conflict?), then I'll answer them (and make a
> mental note). Also, the players are aware, I think, of the potential for
> collective story building, and they share in the creation process. I love
> that! It's what makes me think I'm doing my job. Players often have much
> better ideas about plots and about histories -- and I'd be a fool not to
> capitalize on it.
>
> But back to the timelines: I'm a very seat-of-the-pants style GM. This
> timeline discussion is happening at an interesting point for me, mainly
> because I have been feeling very bogged down with details in my AI Inc.
> PBEM game -- I'm resolving a plot which started in another of my PBEM
> games, and of course I end up checking details, back and forth and back and
> forth, while I'm trying to respond to turns. For wanting to be flexible,
> I'm very, very serious about maintaining internal consistency, and I'm
> starting to resent it slightly, I think. Better this, though, than the
> e-mails from lurkers demanding I resolve the plot! <grin>
Okay, here's my take on the whole timelines thing. I don't actually
write up timelines for my games (I run SuperHero games, but the one I'm
doing now is 200 years into the future, so I'm not relying on existing
history that much), but I find that I end up with one, anyway.
When I create my world, I first decide what it looks like
geographically, what it looks like socially and politically, and who
populates it (significant NPC's - both villian groups and enough
'neutral' ones to make the world actually seem populated). Once that is
done, I go through every character sheet I have written up and make sure
to retrofit the world to accomodate them, and 'find out' if they have
affected history, or are a result of history. Every 'fact of reality'
also has to be placed in the scheme of history to keep things
consistent; I.E. in my world, San Fransisco is SOUTH of L.A. (due
originally to a simple slip of the tongue during my first game, and
refusal to admit I goofed - "No, I MEANT to say that!"), so I had to
decide why this was. Not only did this give interesting history, but
added fabulous new aspects to the 'historical legends' present in the
game. (It was teleported in its entirety by a Super-Villian during a
battle 50 years before the game's beginning. No, this was NOT a typical
power-level for my game).
Anyhow, when all facets in the current reality the PCs are introduced
into are fully fleshed out in their origins and places in the world and
history, I now have a de facto timeline leading up to the game; simply
be answering all the major questions regarding the hows and whys of the
current world.
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:14:58 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Non-Stereotypical Minority Supers
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Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>
> To kind of segue from the "Pow-wow" discussion (if it could be
> called that)...
>
> What sort of Native American heroes would be considered
> non-stereotypical and non-offensive? Most of the Marvel ones had some sort
> of "Indian" motif. I somewhat imagined that some would do that. I'd like
> to interject some minority Supers into my games (probably as NPCs) but would
> like them to be non-stereotypes. Yes, some will probably be stereotypical,
> but I want some to be surprising, and I would like them all to have depth.
> A little help (and some opinions) would be greatly appreciated.
I think Puma (I don't remember if that's his label or not) from
Spider-Man comics was well done; he was raised in a Native tribe and
learned to transform to a Puma, but led his normal life as a cutthroat
'Hostile Takeover' businessman.
I have to say, the question really comes down to; what would your
PLAYERS find offensive or not? If a character you come up with is just
fine with your gaming group, but might offend your neighbor three doors
down, you really don't have to worry, unless you ask your neighbor three
doors down to join your game. Then ask him/her.
I think that any legitimate attempt to learn enough about the culture
you are attempting to emulate - specifically the *current*
representation of the culture - there should be no problem.
Alternately, if possible, model the character after a specific real-life
person of the appropriate background. Then nobody can accuse you of
being inaccurate in your interpretation of the culture involved.
I have a mercenary group of Powered Armour types in my game, of
varied ethnicity, and have a mix of the rather stereotypical and the
mundanely Americanized. There's a (ironically enough) Native American
who has a hot temper and is often spouting off about oppression and his
cultural identity (this one's based on a guy I actually knew), on the
other end of the spectrum, there's a Black (sorry, "African American")
woman who is the scientist/inventor who formed the group and created the
armour. And a completely Americanized Korean who is struggling to learn
basic Martial Arts in American Dojos.
I think the potential for colour (no pun intended) and variety in a
game outweighs the possiblity of someone taking it the wrong way and
getting offended. Remember, the bottom line is that it is a game, and a
fantasy world, and quite frankly, even broad stereotypes may very well
have completely legitimate origins and histories in a fantasy world.
Stereotypes wouldn't exist if there weren't actually people like them -
not as a large portion of the whole, but enough that one will
occasionally see them in life.
So have at it, and if your intentions are good ones, I wouldn't worry
overmuch over the results.
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
X-Sender: mactyre@mail.aci.net
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 05:18:09 -0700
From: Matthew Mactyre <mactyre@aci.net>
Subject: Re: Power modifiers
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
At 03:44 PM 10/17/97 -0700, Rick Holding wrote:
>What's peoples opinions on Area of Effect applied to non attack powers, like
Life
>Support, Flight ....or Teleport.
I'm for them. No, seriously, are you asking if we allow them? I certainly
do. It allows you to created/simulate a larger number of powers as seen in
comic books or (sometimes) real life.
Matthew
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_________________
Matthew Mactyre
mactyre@aci.net
http://www.mactyre.net
PGP Key available on request
PGP fingerprint = A2 AE 68 AE 2E 96 94 C3 30 ED 53 59 A6 FF 3B 1F
If you can't describe it with numbers, it isn't a science.
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 18:21:16 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
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>>> Or maybe he's a robotic vehicle for a hamster bent on world domination.
>>>
>>I don't know sounds a little too... Earth C- / Captain Carrot / Zoo Crew
>>-ish.
>
> It actually is from Pinky & the Brain. (The Brain was about to try this
>when Snowball the Hamster beat him to it.)
>
Oh. I was thinking of the time that Captain Carrot and his Amazing Zoo Crew
had to stop a special effects hamster who had been fired by Steven
Spielbirddog. He constructed this giant jogging wheel, see...
- Jerry
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 07:29:36 -0500 (EST)
From: "Jason A. Dour" <jad@bcc.louisville.edu>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: New Powers Plug-In (
Comments: Getting paid to be a geek is cool...
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This letter is probably pointless, but I feel it had to be said anyway...
On 17 Oct 1997, Opal wrote:
> Well, if a Hero player wants the background from New Melinium, he's
> also buying a book for a system he'll never play. I don't see the
> difference.
As I stated in my original post, I was asking for HERO4 thoughts,
experiences, and knowledge -- *NOT* Fuzion-specific information. Is that
*NOT* what this list is about -- helping with HERO4? Is it truly
impossible for someone to get helpful information instead of being told
that they're going about their gaming incorrectly? Had I posted my same
questions, but instead were asking for help with making my HERO4 game run
more smoothly, would I have received different response? More than
likely, I would have.
If I had only wanted Fuzion information, I would have restricted
my poll to the Fuzion list I created. Instead, I went to the forums that
were most applicable, and here found not helpful knowledge, but off-handed
dismissal.
> I have to agree. Fuzion is meant to be a simpler system than Hero,
> throwing in a Hero-level creation system is pointless. It would make
> Fuzion too complicated. Remeber the old KISS addage:
Well, contrary to what you or some of the other thread writers
might believe, I *DO* own HERO4. In fact, I probably own 75% or more of
all HERO4 products. Does that mean I know *everything* about HERO4? No.
Does that mean I shouldn't solicit intelligent input from other sources?
No. But obviously, since I'm one of the traitorous players who have moved
to Fuzion over HERO4, I don't deserve help from the members of this forum.
Disappointed,
Jason
# Jason A. Dour <jad@bcc.louisville.edu> 1101
# Programmer Analyst II; Department of Radiation Oncology; Univ. of Lou.
# Finger for URLs, PGP public key, geek code, PJ Harvey info, et cetera.
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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 05:50:03 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: The Dreaded TRANSFORM (was Grey Areas)
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At 07:12 PM 10/16/97, qts wrote:
>On Wed, 15 Oct 1997 02:18:19 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
>
>>Here's another. The grey area of all grey areas.
>>
>>The dreaded....TRANSFORM......aka the last refuge of a GM.
>>
>>What's major? What's minor?
>
>It's easiest to do this by example:
>
>Turning a white man black (eg the bag of soot in the face) is a
>Cosmetic Transform
>Turning a black man into an Asiatic is a Minor Transform
>Turning a woman into a frog is a Major Transform
My general rule on this is:
If the Transform does not affect the character sheet (except maybe a
word or two at most), it's a Cosmetic Transform.
If it shifts a few of the target's points around, but the total is the
same, it's a Minor Transform.
If it changes the point total, it's a Major Transform.
The number of points that can be shifted with a Minor Transform is the
maximum that could be rolled on the dice. Similarly, a Major Transform
could either add or subtract the same maximum. (Again, this is a general
rule, with many possibilities for exceptions that would seem obscene if it
were a hard rule.)
>Creating something out of thin air is usually a Major Transform.
With ya on that; I think the rulebook even says so.
>> Do cumulative transforms allow something to
>> be partially transformed?
>
>No.
Agreed, though it would be nice if there was an Advantage (+1/2?) that
could make a Cumulative Transform into a Gradual Transform.
>>Is a transform that gives additional character disadvantages a major or
>>minor Transform?
>
>Major.
Agreed, for the above-stated reason (it changes the point totals).
>> How about one that aggravates an existing disadvantage?
>
>This depends: if you're directly affecting the character, then Major;
>if you're affecting some_thing_ which affects the character, then Minor
>or major depending upon the degree of change.
>
>Example: the Norse god Balder was Vulnerable to holly (or was it
>mistletoe?). If you change his Vulnerability from holly to oak, that's
>Major; if you change your oak spear to holly, that's minor; if you
>change your *steel* spear to holly, then that's Major; if you change
>your steel spear to look like it's made of holly, to try and make
>Balder run off, then that's Cosmetic.
By my system, the first would be Minor, the rest Cosmetic. (I'm not
saying that your judgements are bad here; I'm just recycling your example.
It always helps to be environmentally conscious, even in cyberspace.)
>>Do the number of points in question matter?
>
>Depends upon the effect: if you're Transforming a price into a frog,
>then no; if you're Ba Kien transforming the local populace into
>Super-boxers, then additional powers have to be balanced by additional
>limitations, and the added points can't exceed the Active Points in the
>power (qv Ninja Hero). Unless the GM so allows it.
Agreed there. If you're just trying to add a Disadvantage ("Worships
Foxbat"), then the number of points should be limited. If you're trying to
make gross changes ("He's a chicken, I tell you! A giant chicken!"), then
why bother?
---
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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 06:18:24 -0700
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net>
Subject: PBEM Railroading? Nature of the Beast
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At 11:35 AM 10/16/97 -0700, Rook wrote:
> I agree here. I can't stand being railroaded. Many of the online
PBeM'sread
>that way. The only exeption I found was the first half of the VC PBeM.
>Unfortunatly, it too fell into railroading in the latter half. The G3 game
was
>also a heavy victim of this. Every action taken went against the PC's
somehow.
>I'm currently lurking through as many PBeM's as I can. Mostly so I can choose
>the style I'll use when/if I decide to GM one myself. But also to compare and
>note the good and bad points of them.
Hm....I suppose that once you've run a PBEM game it will make a little more
sense to you how things work, but as for G3 -- they had *lots* of choices.
What you don't see as a lurker is that I as a GM had to compensate for
everything from players dropping off the face of the universe, making
sexual innuendos that made it impossible for them to stay in the game,
having babies, and just generally not picking up on things. When your
players send you 50K of turns every week, if you don't maintain strict
control it will all go to hell in a handbasket within a fortnight and
you'll never get anything done. PBEM is easy to criticize, but not so easy
to do. The fact I'm still deluged with requests to play in my PBEM games
(even in that game, which is pretty clearly marked as being over) tells me
that I think I did *something* right! But I'd be more than happy to have
this conversation with you after you've run PBEM for a year or so.
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
www.mactyre.net
Your children will see the stars.
--Robert A. Heinlein
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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 06:28:13 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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At 12:01 AM 10/17/97 GMT, Opal wrote:
>There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of how Multiform
>characters spend Exp. A multi form is build on the same point
>base as the base form. So, if you have a 100 + 150 disads +15 exp
>base form, then each of the other forms has the same number of base
>points, and the same number of exp (not all of which may be spent)
>and a max of 150 in disads. In your example the breakdown would
>be:
>
>Multo = 100 +150 +15 = 265 (50 pts in Multiform)
>Mult1 = 100 + 85 +15 = 200
>Mult2 = 100 + 0 + 0 = 100 (and has 15 unspent exp)
I'll say there's a misunderstanding -- what you're describing here is
the Third Edition version of Multiform!
Not that the description you were responding to was much better. In
fact, I see nothing in the BBB that says anything about Multiforms earning
experience. The only way I can see to increase the point value of a
Multiform is to put more points into it, at the usual rate of 1 point spent
per 5 points improved. (I see the same rule for Followers and most other
"secondary entities.")
>The character has only earned 15 exp, there is *no way* his
>multiforms could have 50 exp! Yes, this does mean adding
>disads after the start of the game, which is a little odd.
>More often, a Multiform character would keep his disads the
>same, and only spend enough exp on multiform to allow each
>form to spend the exp he's earned.
I'm not quite sure how most of this matches up (or not) with what I said
in the above paragraph. Obviously, we disagree on whether Multiforms can
have experience points at all, but I *think* the principle of your last
sentence is fundamentally correct.
However, a Multiform can have more points than the base character if the
base character spends 1:1 point for the extras.
> h > > Personally, I think that you should only be paying for the base
> h > points in
> h > > the form anyway...
> h >
> h > Disagree: that would make multiform the same price as a follower.
>
>The way disads work for multiform and duplication is pretty confusing,
>cutting them out of the cost calculation might be helpful, though
>you'd probably want to increase the cost of multiform, say by starting
>it at 0 pts... Multiform cost: 30pts for a 0 base pt multiform +5/1pt,
>15pts +10/1 for each additional form. Forms cannot have more base points
>than the base forms base pts + exp, and cannot have more disads than
>the normal champaign limit.
I like this plan, at least provisionally. I've never liked the rule of
paying for points in "secondary entities" that are covered by
Disadvantages. It's like paying for them twice, or taking Disadvantages on
a character without *really* getting points for them.
---
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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 06:31:00 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: hero cannon?
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At 09:44 AM 10/16/97 -0500, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>At 03:44 PM 10/16/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>It is less an issue of "canonicity" as core rules vs. optional rules. The
>>BBB, HSR, and CD are the core rules. All other officially published rules
>>are optional -- if you would, "officially published house rules".
>
>To be more precise, the Hero System Rulebook is the "core rules", and both
>the BBB and CD happen to contain a copy. All other rules, including those
>presented in the REST of the BBB/CD, are "officially published house rules".
If you *really* want to get picky, the whole shootin' match is actually
"officially published house rules," since the system originally was just
something that some college kid drew up while not particularly paying
attention in class. ;-]
(If you don't understand that statement, don't bother trying....)
---
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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 07:08:53 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Non-Stereotypical Minority Supers
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At 11:15 AM 10/16/97 -0700, Rook wrote:
>I play an asian guy who's powers are based on techno music and who has no
>martial arts in a V&V PBeM.
You want worse? I'm toying with the idea of an Asian character who
knows five different martial arts: capoeira, krav maga, pankration,
savate, and wrestling.
> Just figure out what the stereotype is for a given group and then
avoid it.
>Or use a stereotype of another group :)
Or use the stereotype, but with a twist (preferably offbeat).
> Seeker is one of my favorites. He's your basic ninja, only he's white,
>aussie, and asia-clueless.
And he's a good example of a twisted stereotype.
---
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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:10:47 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: RE: Heromaker: Who uses it?
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At 08:03 PM 10/16/97 -0500, Rick Ryker wrote:
> Actually no. Even without the added word, the passage still distinctly
> refers to Powers that affect Characteristics not Characteristic Points.
A meaningless distinction unless it's explicitly stated to exclude the
latter, since it's impossible to alter the latter without changing the former.
--
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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:10:51 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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At 09:34 AM 10/17/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> Criminy! What's with all the references? That's Teen Turbo, right?
> Saturday morning cartoon. Also did something similar in the "Pole
> Position" cartoon, where two drivers turned into their cars with cheesy
> computer effects.
No, =Pole Position= had the =Knight Rider= like racing cars with detachable
computer brains and hovercraft conversions. (Boy, am I a child of the 80s).
--
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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:10:52 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: The Tragic Spawning of the Grey Area
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At 11:04 AM 10/17/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> Anyone here rember the Galaxy Rangers, kind of an outer space western?
> Each character could activate a power by pressing a little badge. I
> believe there was a male lead who had cybernetic arms he could summon up
> at a moment's notice, a female mentalist, another male who had three
> dimensional real world VR programs (like those 'bits' from Tron, only
> with individual personalities and abilities), two droids, and a crazy
> blonde guy who could absorb and/or take on the properties of any matter
> or energy.
That'd be "Goose", the metamorph. ("I am NOT a metamorph!") :]
Yes, I remember this show very well. Had some of the neatest music in
cartoondom, and a surprisingly well-developed cast of recurring villains. I
was always a fan of the Scarecrow.
==
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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:10:54 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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At 05:39 AM 10/15/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Hm. I'd thought that this was clear enough, if not from the text then
>from the examples under Knockback and the Combat Example on pages 210-212.
>Does someone (whether on the list, or just known by someone on the list)
>actually use BODY done after defenses for Knockback?
I remember getting a lecture from one of the frequent posters here once on
how the wording of the passage 'clearly' (I try to avoid using the word
'clearly' with ANYTHING related to HERO :/ ) showed KB was based on BODY
taken after defenses.
--
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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 07:21:22 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Non-Stereotypical Minority Supers
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At 12:14 AM 10/17/97 +0600, you wrote:
> To kind of segue from the "Pow-wow" discussion (if it could be
>called that)...
>
> What sort of Native American heroes would be considered
>non-stereotypical and non-offensive? Most of the Marvel ones had some sort
>of "Indian" motif. I somewhat imagined that some would do that. I'd like
>to interject some minority Supers into my games (probably as NPCs) but would
>like them to be non-stereotypes. Yes, some will probably be stereotypical,
>but I want some to be surprising, and I would like them all to have depth.
>A little help (and some opinions) would be greatly appreciated.
Long Walker (from the Allies book) is a sort-of satire on
antistereotyping: she's intentionally directed her life as far away from
stereotypical Native American things as she possibly could, and then she
goes and has a superheroine origin that's so stereotypically Native
American it makes you want to weep from sympathy.
I've never played a Native American as a PC, nor used one as an NPC in
my games -- a situation that should probably change.
In my fictional work, I have only one Native American character, a
rather eccentric robot pilot and medic named Elvis Eaglespeaker. (The
setting is a futuristic science-fiction one. I'm leaning toward making him
Navajo, since I have an inexplicable affection for that tribe, though my
knowledge of them is admittedly weak and I suspect that I'll have to change
his surname.) In addition to Western medicine, he's into acupuncture and
Chinese herbal medicine. He also has an off-beat sense of humor -- lost in
the wilderness, he adopts an air of mystery, tells his colleagues, "Here's
a trick for starting a fire that my grandfather taught me," and then slowly
reaches into his pocket to pull out a Bic lighter.
As I mention in a separate post, I like characters who offer odd twists
to familiar stereotypes.
I personally have rarely been offended by stereotypes if the characters
who fit into them do not remain ciphers. One of my favorite characters
from television remains the white cop from "Sanford and Son" (I cannot
recall the name). I fit quite neatly into the "white-bread American" type
that he was designed to fit, and he was simply a stereotype joke when
introduced, but he did get some depth later on in the program's run, and --
perhaps most importantly -- was clearly shown to be a person of good basic
moral character.
Sometimes, though, a stereotype can be a useful thing. Half of the
characters in Horror Enemies are stereotypes (though Maze is a kewl twist
on a stereotype), but they are such to make a point, sometimes about
stereotypes themselves.
---
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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 07:31:30 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Power modifiers
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At 03:44 PM 10/17/97 -0700, Rick Holding wrote:
>What's peoples opinions on Area of Effect applied to non attack powers,
like Life
>Support, Flight ....or Teleport.
I recommend four basic rules:
1) It must be bought either Usable Against Others, or possibly Usable By
Others.
2) It should not be done if there's a different way to represent it.
Teleport, for example, already allows the character to bring others along
for the ride (one of the first Champions games I ever GMed had one of the
characters teleport the whole team "behind enemy lines" for a surprise
attack). If you don't want to require that all of them be touching, just
let Teleport be bought at Range. Similarly, Flight in an area could
arguably be better represented with an attached TK Area Effect at No Range.
Use careful judgement.
3) Keep a "Stop Sign" on it, since it can easily become unbalancing
and/or confusing in a game. Life Support AE UAO would not be a problem,
and Flight would probably only be used out of combat, but Desolidification
or Invisibility AE UAO could easily be abused.
4) Since the mechanics of this type of thing isn't spelled out in the
book, carefully define the mechanics of how the Power works at the time
that it's bought, and stick as close to it as possible.
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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 07:43:33 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Powwow -- Response to the response
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At 10:10 PM 10/16/97 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> That said, the term "powwow" is not merely a racial term. It is
>actually a European translation of the original tribal speech. It does,
>however, refer to a meeting, nay a gathering, which held particular
>importance in the spiritual lives of Native Americans. The songs, dances,
>and ceremonies that occur at powwows are long steeped in tradition. Using
>the term for an internet chat program -- used to discuss such important
>things from cats to tv shows to rpgs to various sexual perversions --
>seems to me to bastardize the entire concept. I would compare this to
>using some word that represents an important Christian tradition as the
>name for some sort of internet program. What kind of response would I get
>if I called my communications software "communion"?
Actually, speaking as a very conservative Chrisitian, this sounds like
it could be cool, if done tastefully and respectfully. (What you described
in reference to Powwow was, I agree with you, *not* done tastefully and
respectfully.)
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From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: Ablative Energy Blasts (Was: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:00:27 -0500
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> At 04:11 PM 10/14/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote:
> >> Heromaker is basically meant to be used by people who are already
> >> acquainted with the Hero System. It's meant to be as flexible as
> the
> >> system itself is. What "rules" in particular is it letting you
> >> break? If it's stuff like using Ablative with an Energy Blast,
> >> there's technically no rule against that in the game, either; it
> just
> >> doesn't make much sense, and it doesn't limit the power, so it's
> not
> >> really worth any points.
> >
> > Let's see, ablative is something I've never used, so is it basically
> >like it is in Mekton where you lose points of it each time it's hit.
> Normally
> >used on armor...
> > If so, well, perhaps each time Sun-Guy is hit by Darkness powers,
> >his Energy Blast gets weaker...
> >
> > Or Battery-Dude has only so much power, each time he blasts someone,
> >his next blast is so much weaker...
>
> Well, the way I'd have it work is kinda like overheating from use.
> The
> first time the character fires the blast, it works normally; the
> second
> time, it gets a 15-; the third time, 14-; and so on. If it doesn't
> work,
> then it doesn't "heat up," so the Activation Roll doesn't go down, but
> any
> Charges, END, Expendable Foci, and such would still be used.
>
This sounds like a variation of BurnOut. Variable BurnOut? Ablative
BurnOut?
BurnOut is like Activation except you only roll if it successfully
activated
(so you can take both Activation and BurnOut to represent an X
prototype).
-RICK
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
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>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
JD> As far as OIHID: what if he has a Secret ID? or if the Armor is really
JD> uncomfortable : ) ? Or has limited time constraints? Would OIHID then
JD> be appropriate?
OHID means that there is "difficulty" changing between secret and heroic
identities. In the description given there is little or no dificulty
apparant in switching identities. Thus, no bonus.
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From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: New Powers Plug-In (Or, I'm Impatient Enough Not To Wait)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:12:23 -0500
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> So I assume you want something that's specifically WrOnG with these
> elements (like how Flash Defense is way to effective against Flashes),
> as
> opposed to how they're written (like Linked), right?
>
Actually, HERO makes defenses more powerful than the attack
they defend against on purpose.
-RICK
PS: I suppose you want me to dig out an offical quote for this too?
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: hero cannon?
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:20:37 -0500
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> >Subject: Re: Champions 4th Edition = Rule Bible?
> >From: herogames@aol.com (Hero Games)
> >
> >Champions 4th Edition Deluxe Hardbound
> >Fantasy Hero
> >Hero System Almanac I
> >Hero System Almanac II
> >Dark Champions
> >An Eye For An Eye
> >Western Hero
> >Cyber Hero
> >Horror Hero
> >The Ultimate Martial Artist
> >The Ultimate Mentalist
> >The Ultimate Super Mage
> >Issues of Adventurers Club magazine
>
> This is actually a little ambiguous on this point. All Steve is
> really
> saying there is that this is where rules for the Hero System can be
> found;
> but how many of these are considered "official, full-fledged parts of
> the
> Hero System that can be used on all characters"?
>
>
Before I stopped playing (1989), we used any and all rules
we could get our hands on if the GM agreed it fit his campaign.
After all, we were mostly play-testing anyway.
If you look at the rules before 4th Edition and the references above
that also existed before 4th Edition, you will find that most of these
'optional'
rules were included in 4th Edition (if only stream-lined a bit).
Especially the Adventurers Club. As a matter of fact, the AC usually
published clarifications to parts of the rules that seemed ambiguous.
Most of the questions in this forum have been hashed over before in AC.
"There is nothing new under the sun." (Who said this? Biblical?)
-RICK
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:23:32 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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>>I often find Multiform to be the wrong approach. Unless the two forms are
>>incredibly different (as opposed to the werewolf example, where you're going
>>from human to man-beast, really), a combination of Shapeshift and OIHID (or
>>some other situational limitation) often works even better (with more
>>available points!).
>
> I'd call those two forms "incredibly different"! Just compare Jaguar's
>two forms in the BBB (a quite similar situation) to see how different they
>can be! I mean, what are you asking for -- a teenager who transforms into
>a Trans Am?
Jaguar has 'incredibly different' forms due to the sheer number of skills
the multiform has. Not to mention the radical intellect change. For an
example of what I'm talking about, think Tigra (sometime Avenger). NOT a
multiform - heck, it's close enough to rate OIHID in my books. When
multiform renders a great deal of the disadvantages as redundant (same psych
lims, same vulnerabilities and susceptibilities, etc.), the PC is better off
using shapeshift/OIHID than Multiform.
As another example, look at Wolvesbane (Marvel), the mutant take on a
'classic' werewolf. Does her personality change in wolf-shape? Not much. Do
her powers change all that much? No again, just some statistic changes and
an enhancement of senses (really). Do her disadvantages change all that
much? No again - aside from the loss of fine manipulation in 'full wolf'
form and distinctive features, it's still her. I'd argue for Shapeshift
combined with OIHID powers and stat changes.
You want Multiform, Sauron (again, Marvel), that's a Multiform. Completely
different personality, powers, and disadvantages to the 'human' form.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Non-Stereotypical Minority Supers
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>>>>> "GH" == Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> writes:
GH> Where can we find some information on what the differences between
GH> the different tribes would be? Can you recommend any books on the
GH> subject?
Oh, man, the books would fill a small library. You've got Eskimo-Aleut,
Algonkin-Wakashan, Nadene, Penutian, Hokan-Siouan, and Aztec-Tanoan as
major classifications. Within each you will find anywhere from one to
several dozen distinct nations. Each nation may be divided up into any
number of tribes. You can find books at any level, from the personal to
the total overview.
I strongly recomend "Ceremony" and "The Way to Rainy Mountain".
Unfortunately I forget the respective authors' names.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Power modifiers
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
BG> 1) It must be bought either Usable Against Others, or possibly
BG> Usable By Others.
Just remember that when you apply Usable Against Others to a power it then
may be used to make attacks. As such, you need to define a reasonably
common defense or set of defenses against the power -- and this can be
difficult for powers that normally have no defense and do no damage.
Usable Against Others on movement powers should be considered a last
resort.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Non-Stereotypical Minority Supers
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Date: 17 Oct 1997 11:41:22 -0400
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
BG> You want worse? I'm toying with the idea of an Asian character who
BG> knows five different martial arts: capoeira, krav maga, pankration,
BG> savate, and wrestling.
You should see "Showdown in Little Tokyo" for a beautiful twist of
stereotypes: Brandon Lee as the thoroughly "American" type, Dolph Lundgren
raised Samurai.
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Subject: RE: New Powers Plug-In (Or, I'm Impatient Enough Not To Wait)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 97 11:46:17 -0400
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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>> So I assume you want something that's specifically WrOnG with these
>> elements (like how Flash Defense is way to effective against Flashes),
>> as
>> opposed to how they're written (like Linked), right?
>>
>Actually, HERO makes defenses more powerful than the attack
>they defend against on purpose.
>
>-RICK
>
>PS: I suppose you want me to dig out an offical quote for this too?
No, I think we all agree on that... BUT Flash defense for the minimum
purchase of 5 points negates the average 5 dice flash attack that costs
10 times as much! (or is it 5, either way, FD is far too effective.
Dave
The popularity of Windows surged in 1995, when |
Microsoft began shipping Windows 95, which | David A. Fair
included many innovations that the Macintosh | SDS International
had introduced 10 years earlier. | dfair@sdslink.com
- Reuters, Friday, July 18, 1997 |
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: Grey Areas
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:46:42 -0500
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> >The way disads work for multiform and duplication is pretty
> confusing,
> >cutting them out of the cost calculation might be helpful, though
> >you'd probably want to increase the cost of multiform, say by
> starting
> >it at 0 pts... Multiform cost: 30pts for a 0 base pt multiform
> +5/1pt,
> >15pts +10/1 for each additional form. Forms cannot have more base
> points
> >than the base forms base pts + exp, and cannot have more disads than
> >the normal champaign limit.
>
> I like this plan, at least provisionally. I've never liked the
> rule of
> paying for points in "secondary entities" that are covered by
> Disadvantages. It's like paying for them twice, or taking
> Disadvantages on
> a character without *really* getting points for them.
>
There is a fundamental difference between a follower bought as a disad
and a follower bought with character points.
The disad friend/follower is someone who gets into trouble -- a lot.
The exact frequency is determines the number of points when bought.
He is a meant to be a plot device and provides a distraction.
The follower bought with character points is someone who is usually
around a lot to help the main character who paid points for him.
He provides assistance.
That these two persons can be the same just means that your sidekick
(to use an old Golden Age Champions term) helps you a lot (a la Rhodey)
but also frequently gets into trouble (plot device).
-RICK
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Non-Stereotypical Minority Supers
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Date: 17 Oct 1997 11:51:44 -0400
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
BG> I've never played a Native American as a PC, nor used one as an NPC
BG> in my games -- a situation that should probably change.
It can be difficult. The mindset of a "traditional" Amerindian can be
extremely alien to just about anyone. Of course, anyone brought up in
"middle America" is going to be a lot like anyone else you know.
Something to try some night when you have about 15 minutes to kill,
preferably someplace quiet. Look up at the moon and the stars, but avoid
calling them "the moon" and "stars". Try to totally divorce them from what
they are called and accept them for what they are.
If you can do that you will have experienced a tiny bit of how someone who
had never heard of the "white man" lived his life.
BG> "Here's a trick for starting a fire that my grandfather taught me," and
BG> then slowly reaches into his pocket to pull out a Bic lighter.
You know, that is perfect. The ceremony is critical, even for simple
things like starting a fire with a pocket lighter.
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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:04:42 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: The Tragic Spawning of the Grey Area
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Well... if people are going to make references to Saturday Morning cartoons,
Anyone here rember the Galaxy Rangers, kind of an outer space western?
Each character could activate a power by pressing a little badge. I believe
there was a male lead who had cybernetic arms he could summon up at a
moment's notice, a female mentalist, another male who had three dimensional
real world VR programs (like those 'bits' from Tron, only with individual
personalities and abilities), two droids, and a crazy blonde guy who could
absorb and/or take on the properties of any matter or energy.
Anyone here remember this, or have I gone off the deep end of
obscure?
Jason 'Buckaroo' Sullivan
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: Foci and Instant Change
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:21:16 -0500
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> >>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
>
> JD> As far as OIHID: what if he has a Secret ID? or if the Armor is
> really
> JD> uncomfortable : ) ? Or has limited time constraints? Would OIHID
> then
> JD> be appropriate?
>
> OHID means that there is "difficulty" changing between secret and
> heroic
> identities. In the description given there is little or no dificulty
> apparant in switching identities. Thus, no bonus.
>
The rules make no mention of difficulty being a necessity for OIHI.
Actually, the Rule Book gives an example of a character who has both the
Instant Change Power and most of the hiss Powers with the Only In Hero
ID
(OIHI) Power Advantage. With full bonuses.
The bonus is because he won't always have the power.
He could have a Secret ID and not want to change.
He could be unconscious and not able to change.
His Instant Change power may be suppressed making him unable to change.
-RICK
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: Power modifiers
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:22:24 -0500
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> >>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
> BG> 1) It must be bought either Usable Against Others, or possibly
> BG> Usable By Others.
>
> Just remember that when you apply Usable Against Others to a power it
> then
> may be used to make attacks. As such, you need to define a reasonably
> common defense or set of defenses against the power -- and this can be
> difficult for powers that normally have no defense and do no damage.
> Usable Against Others on movement powers should be considered a last
> resort.
>
The rules atate that you MUST define a reasonably common defense.
-RICK
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:45:37 -0300 (EST)
From: Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria <gevaerd@laranjeiras.lci.ufrj.br>
Subject: Unbalanced Mental Power ?
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If someone gets a telepathy, and very good mind scan and ego attack
for example. He can make a telepathy link with someone of his team, and
then away from the danger of the battle, and receiving information about
the battle from his partner he could just mind scan and ego attack any
opponent his partner could detect, being almost completely safe. And he
could even get these powers by an Elemental Control.
Is this right ? What do you think about this ?
[]s.
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:55:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Power modifiers
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> What's peoples opinions on Area of Effect applied to non attack powers, like Life
> Support, Flight ....or Teleport.
Many of these would actually first require UBO. All AE allows is
use of the power without having to touch the other users.
-Tim Gilberg
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Non-Stereotypical Minority Supers
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:56:32 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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> >
> > What sort of Native American heroes would be considered
> >non-stereotypical and non-offensive? Most of the Marvel ones had
>
> That's a very good question. I have a related question, about how to
> know when a stereotype _is_ offensive.
>
> Not long ago, I had an idea for a NPC who might be an honorable-enemy
> type villain, might be a hero, and might be different things at
>
> He would have been a paranormal with the ability to create mental
> illusions and project energy. He would, by strong preference, have
> used antique American Indian garb (I hadn't decided what tribe, yet),
> have used his illusions combined with his energy projection to create
> spears, arrows, or stone throwing axes for killing attacks, and have
> some sort of ritual (a "spirit dance", or something) to project his
> enemies or friends into his illusions. Lastly, he would have a "coup
> stick", which would be a 0 Range NND EB.
>
> If he had been a sometimes-villain rather than a outright hero, it
> would have been because of an obsession with driving the white man out
> of his people's (whoever they were, I hadn't decided) territory. At
> any rate, he wouldn't have been Tonto, that's for sure.
>
> The main reason I haven't written him up is that I can't quite decide
> if he's an offensive stereotype. Any ideas?
To avoid that issue just base him on people involved in one
of the current Native American cultural movements. I know the reservations
in and around the central California region are promoting a new
"red path" or "shining path" (ok, I can't recall the name, shining path
is a communist geurilla (sp?) movement in Peru...) movement.
The idea behind this group is to get off drinking and poverty
by promoting the older traditional values and religions of tribes. Sorry
I don't have more detail. But I can imagine someone taking this down
the wrong tangent could become very racist and begin terrorist attacks
on the local 'white community'. Something this movement is against doing
to my knowledge.
The ghost dance mentioned in Shadowrun was an actual
historical movement. I believe it was the cause behind the massacare at
Wounded Knee; which was repeated on a smaller scale in the 70's when
the FBI went after AIM at that same location. AIM had gone out there
to do a spiritual cleansing for the people who died there.
The FBI had/has AIM on it's list of dangerous groups. But AIM
has been mostly neutralized since one of it's best leaders was found in
the desert dead and with her hands missing (in her tribe's religion, you
only go to heaven if your body is whole). AIM claims the FBI did it. The
FBI says she died of natural causes, despite the bullet hole in her head.
So...
What am I getting at? Well, the members of AIM are all now older
men with wife's who keep them in check (most "plains Indians" hold that
are brash and foolhardy and need women to straighten them out and keep
them from doing foolish things, by the same count, most of them are either
matrilinial or matriarchal or both). Therefore they're not likely to do
anything rash these days. They claim they were never violent and never
had violent goals. Though the FBI would dispute this.
However a "young buck" might get it into his head to take up the
torch were "those senile old men" left off...
There is a growing racist movement on the reservations as well.
They're getting their own versions of the KKK and the Nation of Islam,
though it's not organized. It is present as an undercurrent among the
disenfranchized (sp?).
All of this could combine to make a Native American super who
follows traditional teachings that have been warped to justify his
youthful vengence.
It's a character I myself have long thought of using as well.
Rook
(my grandfather may have been chinese, but two of my other grandparents
were natives (1 south am, 1 north am))
Not that that makes me an expert, but I just wanted to state it
before somebody cries foul at what they percieve as an asian claiming
to know something about native am's.
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:18:57 -0700
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Non-Stereotypical Minority Supers
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At 12:14 AM 10/17/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
> To kind of segue from the "Pow-wow" discussion (if it could
be
>called that)...
>
> What sort of Native American heroes would be considered
>non-stereotypical and non-offensive? Most of the Marvel ones had
some sort
>of "Indian" motif. I somewhat imagined that some would do that.
I'd like
>to interject some minority Supers into my games (probably as NPCs)
but would
>like them to be non-stereotypes. Yes, some will probably be
stereotypical,
>but I want some to be surprising, and I would like them all to have
depth.
>A little help (and some opinions) would be greatly appreciated.
>
The simplest thing to do, possibly, would be to take someone from one
of the countless enemies books and simply assign him/her an ethnicity
other than Generic European, without otherwise altering their
personality, psych lims, powers, etc. Why not make Foxbat Japanese,
for example? His background wouldn't need to change at all -- there
are plenty of wealthy Japanese living in America. The same applies to
a lot of characters.
IMO, if you begin with an ethnicity, you're likely to build in
stereotypes almost subconsciously. Don't begin with "I want a Black
villain" or "I want a Chinese superhero" -- design an interesting
character, THEN toss on an ethnicity. 'Ethnic first' design would be
appropriate when you want a culturally-themed hero.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
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>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
JD> So, Instant Change means you can't have OIHID?!?!?!?
Pretty much. If unrestricted Instant Change allows you to circumvent the
restrictions of OHID then OHID is worth no bonus.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
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>>>>> "RR" == Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com> writes:
RR> The rules make no mention of difficulty being a necessity for OIHI.
It mentions that there are difficultings in *changing* between normal and
heroic identites. The nature of the difficulties do not need to be tied to
game mechanics, but they must be there or the limitation is meaningless and
thus worth no bonus.
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From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: What a Timeline is truely good for
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:29:08 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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>
> Rook wrote:
> > I agree here. I can't stand being railroaded. Many of the online PBeM'sread
> > that way. The only exeption I found was the first half of the VC PBeM.
> > Unfortunatly, it too fell into railroading in the latter half.
> Railroading? I don't feel railroaded. What are you referring to?
Yeah, I know it wasn't actual railroading from talking to you. But
it looked that way. The moral code vs. killing debate and the sudden romance
both had the look of being pushed.
On the whole though, I think it's the best written PBeM I've read so
far. It looked to have lots of player input and freedom, with several diferent
writing styles and a GM who appears (to us outsiders) to take a sit back
and let them create attitude to the game.
Some of the PBeM's I've read have a constant feel of having been
totally rewritten and editied at every level by the GM, with very little
control in the player's hands. Weather or not it was the case, it's what it
appears to be from an outside view.
I very much admire VC's troupe style. While so far I think it's all
been one GM; it looks as though all players had heavy input into the story.
Something I hope to be able to copy someday.
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Non-Stereotypical Minority Supers
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:36:02 -0700 (PDT)
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> characters in Horror Enemies are stereotypes (though Maze is a kewl twist
Horror Enemies?
Did I miss something in my shopping cart?
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:02:40 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Non-Stereotypical Minority Supers
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> Oh, man, the books would fill a small library. You've got Eskimo-Aleut,
> Algonkin-Wakashan, Nadene, Penutian, Hokan-Siouan, and Aztec-Tanoan as
> major classifications. Within each you will find anywhere from one to
> several dozen distinct nations. Each nation may be divided up into any
> number of tribes. You can find books at any level, from the personal to
> the total overview.
I'm actually not too strong on each of the main classifications.
I'm really only familiar with the Algonquin (Algonkin) which is where the
Ojibwa are from. (Incedentally, Ojibwa is just Chippewa spelled slightly
different. Both are assigned from outside sources. The tribe calls
itself Asseniboine -- meaning, basically, "the people".)
> I strongly recomend "Ceremony" and "The Way to Rainy Mountain".
> Unfortunately I forget the respective authors' names.
Ceremony is by Leslie Marmon Silko. I'm not sure about the other,
but I think it's by N. Scott Momaday -- he also wrote "House Made of
Dawn".
I'll get back to the list with as complete a list as I can --
culled from my family and my Undergrad 300-level Native American Lit
class. Check in later.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:13:59 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Powwow
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> Although one of the first responses was information to the effect
> that the company presenting the software was being run by the very
> ethnic group in question, thus (I guess) was using the term(s) as
> 'empowering' language.
Except its not, exactly. The group mentions some "warrior way"
philosophy, but that is based more on Eastern traditions than Native
American. The staff is mostly white, with only one Native that I saw.
> Isn't it interesting that when a person uses certain words to
> describe or refer to a person or 'icon' of another culture, it is
> 'bigoted' or 'insensitive', but when a person uses those same words to
> refer to their own people of cultural icans, they are 'empowering'
> words?
Not so much bigoted as insensitive, perhaps. It depends. As I
stated in my post, using the ideas, concepts, and beliefs of a culture
without that culture's permission is straight out cultural theft. The
concept is nebulous in the legal arena, but it is getting more
recognition. I would point everyone to the "Wannabi Tribe" home page,
which pointed out the worst examples on the net, but the maintaniner shut
it down to concentrate on legal action against the perpretators. Instead,
check out the "A Line in the Sand" page, dedicated to guarding against
cultural theft -- at least of Native American culture.
The URL is http://hanksville.phast.umass.edu:8000/cultprop/
Really a good informative site.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:32:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: RE: New Powers Plug-In (Or, I'm Impatient Enough Not To Wait)
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> > So I assume you want something that's specifically WrOnG with these
> > elements (like how Flash Defense is way to effective against Flashes),
> > as
> > opposed to how they're written (like Linked), right?
> >
> Actually, HERO makes defenses more powerful than the attack
> they defend against on purpose.
Yes, but generally not that grossly more powerful. While it will
take 36 pts to cancel out your average EB blast at 60 AP, it will take
only pts to cancel out your average flash at 60 AP. That's way too much
power in that defense.
-Tim Gilberg
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: Foci and Instant Change
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:33:36 -0500
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> >>>>> "RR" == Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com> writes:
>
> RR> The rules make no mention of difficulty being a necessity for
> OIHI.
>
> It mentions that there are difficultings in *changing* between normal
> and
> heroic identites. The nature of the difficulties do not need to be
> tied to
> game mechanics, but they must be there or the limitation is
> meaningless and
> thus worth no bonus.
>
It mentions them because it normally takes time to change clothes.
The Instant Change power gives you the ability to change clothes
instantly.
The example in the rule book gives this as an example of how you can
give
a character the Only In Hero ID power limitation and still allow him to
get
into battle quickly without having to find a phone booth to duck in to
(which would be kind of hard now-a-days anyway).
-RICK
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: Foci and Instant Change
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:48:42 -0500
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> >>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
>
> JD> So, Instant Change means you can't have OIHID?!?!?!?
>
> Pretty much. If unrestricted Instant Change allows you to circumvent
> the
> restrictions of OHID then OHID is worth no bonus.
>
The Only In Hero ID restrictions cannot be circumvented just by having
Instant Change. First of all, you have to change. Second, you may not
be able to change freely for psychological or practical reasons.
("Well, Lois is in trouble. But I can't change into Superman in the
middle
of this crowd. I need to get to a phone booth quick!")
I know this is not a good example. A better one would have Thor's alter
ego
having to duck behind a partition or something else to hide behind so he
can
hit the floor with his walking stick. Which by the way is Instant
Change with
Power Limitations of OAF and "must hit stick/hammer on ground/floor".
If your campaign is nothing but fighting all the time and the characters
never
need to sleep or change into their non-combat personas, then OIHID is
not
worth anything. If your campaign has a fair amount of non-combat time,
and/or the character is in his non Hero ID at least part of the time,
then it
is worth full value, because the Powers are limited for the time the
character
stays in non-HERO ID. Just because he has Instant Change doesn't mean
he will always change back and forth. The fact that the character in
the
example that started this thread did a back to back Instant Change out
of
and back into his Hero ID is something the GM will have to come up with
consequences for. Make the PC lose his Secret ID disadvantage.
Maybe give him a Public ID disadvantage. Where is the media in all
this?
"Mr. PlainGuy, would you please tell the world what it's like to be able
to
change into SuperDuperBoy any time you want to?" "No comment."
"But Mr. PlainGuy, the world wants to know!"
"Mommy, can you ask Mr. PlainGuy if he can turn into SuperDuperBoy and
rescue my kitty cat for me? Please?" "FLASH! SuperDuperBoy refuses
to save little girl's kitty!"
If that doesn't work or no one else was around at the time of the
change,
remember that the villian now knows who SuperDuperBoy is in his non-Hero
ID.
Time to have the villian make SuperDuperBoy's life a real pain.
Hmmm. Only thing I see here is a GM who is not enforcing the disads.
-RICK
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:01:05 -0500
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In many campaigns that I've been in, the GM used our own present day
timeline.
Remember that history in the history books is just the "official"
version of what happened.
The premise is that nobody believes in things that just can't exist.
(i.e., UFOs.)
Everything in history may or may not have happened with para-normals
present,
but the actual causes are glossed over, since no one would believe the
truth anyway.
The sinking of the Spanish Armada was the work of English government
para-normals.
The Kamikaze ("Divine Wind") that sunk Kublai Khan's fleet off the coast
of Japan?
Same thing. Japanese para-normals beat the Mongolian para-normals in
battle.
The newspapers in our campaign world would report the consequences of
our
episodes, but our Player Characters and NPCs wouldn't ever be named.
It seems that the earthquake in San Francisco was just the aftermath of
a battle.
El Nino on the west coast of Mexico was the result of a para-normal's
weather powers.
This also helped a lot whenever time travel happened to get introduced.
We go back in time. We try to stop some evil thing fom happening.
Supers from that time period intercept us. Big battle happens. Dresden
burns.
It was reported as a massive bombing strike by the British. But we know
better.
-RICK
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at post.mail.demon.net
Subject: Re: Fw: Effective Armour Management (was Norse God of Thunder)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 20:02:08 +0100
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Thats certainly a perfectly good way of doing it, and is a lot lower on the
munchkin scale than my initial suggestion. If this was the way I was asked
to do it in a campaign by my GM,I certainly wouldn't have any objections.
By the way, thanks for complimenting my discussion of the problem (it didn't
go unnoticed!)
TTFN
Chris.
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert A. West <robtwest@erols.com>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: 16 October 1997 08:11
Subject: Re: Fw: Effective Armour Management (was Norse God of Thunder)
>Chris Lynch wrote:
>> [I suggested a VPP to represent multiple suits]
>>
>> I don't like using VPP for representing suits of armour. Although they
would
>> obviously be customisable you are left in a bit of a no-win situation.
>
>Oh no! Not a no-win situation!!!! :-)
>
>[snipped good, detailed discussion of the problems]
>
>You can restrict what powers can come out of a VPP. IMHO, a VPP that
>contains only powers that are pre-approved by the GM, or only
>configurations of powers that are pre-approved by the GM are valid, and
>entitled to limitations.
>
>I might apply the following limitations to the first control cost, which
>represents changing suits or building a new suit.
>
>Powers are limited to N active points(-1/2)
>Powers are restricted to pre-approved configurations(-1/2)
>Changing configurations requires that the suit be available(-1/2)
>OIF(-1/2)
>Total limitation = -2. By special effect, designing a new suit (approved
>configuration) requires days, or weeks, or access to special materials.
>
>Now, most power armor includes at least one multipower, but multipowers
>are forbidden in VPPs. Rather than relaxing this stricture, we can have
>each suit design include a list of powers that conceptually should be in
>a multipower, and allow these to be controlled via a second control cost,
>which only applies to enough of the pool to describe the largest MP of
>any of the suits.
>
>Zero Phase(+1) No skill roll(+1): total advantages=+2.
>Powers are restricted to "MP" set for this suit(-3/4)
>Changing available set requires changing suit(-1/4)
>OIF(-1/2)
>Total limitation = -1 1/2.
>
>If the total real points of each suit are 200 and the MP size is 80, then
>the costs would be:
>
>200 VPP Size Cost
>33 Control Cost -- changing and designing suits
> No power over 80 active points. Change powers by changing suit.
> New suits require extensive time out-of-game. OIF
>48 Control Cost on 80-point "MP"
> Only applies to 80 points. Zero phase, no skill roll
> Only powers on MP list for OIF suit worn.
>---
>281
>
>I think that this meets most or all of your objections.
>
>
>--
><------------------------------------------------------->
>Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
>Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
>http://www.erols.com/robtwest
>
>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
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>>>>> "RR" == Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com> writes:
RR> Instant Change power gives you the ability to change clothes instantly.
RR> The example in the rule book gives this as an example of how you can
RR> give a character the Only In Hero ID power limitation and still allow
RR> him to get into battle quickly without having to find a phone booth to
RR> duck in to (which would be kind of hard now-a-days anyway).
"A Limitation that does not limit the character is worth no bonus."
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From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: Non-Stereotypical Minority Supers
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:03:50 -0500
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> I'm actually not too strong on each of the main classifications.
> I'm really only familiar with the Algonquin (Algonkin) which is where
> the
> Ojibwa are from. (Incedentally, Ojibwa is just Chippewa spelled
> slightly
> different. Both are assigned from outside sources. The tribe calls
> itself Asseniboine -- meaning, basically, "the people".)
>
Actually, most peoples' names for themselves mean pretty much the same
thing.
Germans called themselves Allemagne (sp) which meant "All the People"
(Remember there were many germanic tribes back then, each of which was a
people.)
-RICK
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:03:54 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Unbalanced Mental Power ?
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> If someone gets a telepathy, and very good mind scan and ego attack
>for example. He can make a telepathy link with someone of his team, and
>then away from the danger of the battle, and receiving information about
>the battle from his partner he could just mind scan and ego attack any
>opponent his partner could detect, being almost completely safe. And he
>could even get these powers by an Elemental Control.
> Is this right ? What do you think about this ?
Yep, I had one character do this, he used mental illusions to scary effect
too, amazingly capable guy with the power. He would stay back in the bus as
they called their shuttle and use LOS and mind scan to nail people, it was
really good, and funny cause he couldnt fly the thing. One time I actually
crashed his shuttle, and he was a lot more careful after that.
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Non-Stereotypical Minority Supers
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> The tribe calls itself Asseniboine -- meaning, basically, "the
TRG> people".)
You will find that most tribes' or nations' names for themselves translates
as "the people" or something similar.
[...]
TRG> Ceremony is by Leslie Marmon Silko. I'm not sure about the other,
TRG> but I think it's by N. Scott Momaday -- he also wrote "House Made of
TRG> Dawn".
Two points for Tim.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:12:16 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: RE: hero cannon?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>Most of the questions in this forum have been hashed over before in AC.
>"There is nothing new under the sun." (Who said this? Biblical?)
Much like this mailing list heh heh, thats from Ecclesiates and its pretty true
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 17 Oct 1997 15:34:59 -0400
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>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
JD> Did you have to waste our time just to chant? Our (mine and Rick
JD> Ryker's) contention is that it *is* a Limitation. Possibly not a
JD> *combat* oriented Limitation... but then, if you discount those, get
JD> rid of 75% of the Disadvantages on your sheet, too.
Given that the described use of Instant Change was specifically to overcome
any disadvantages to Focus or OHID, I believe that it did need being said.
The character in question clearly was *NOT* limited by either Focus or
OHID. He was able to retrieve his weapons with no effort; likewise he was
able to switch between normal and heroic identities without restriction.
So, no bonus.
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\ kept under refrigeration.
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 97 20:05:14
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: The Dreaded TRANSFORM (was Grey Areas)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 17 Oct 1997 05:50:03 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 07:12 PM 10/16/97, qts wrote:
>>On Wed, 15 Oct 1997 02:18:19 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
>>
>>>Here's another. The grey area of all grey areas.
>>>
>>>The dreaded....TRANSFORM......aka the last refuge of a GM.
>>>
>>>What's major? What's minor?
>>
>>It's easiest to do this by example:
>>
>>Turning a white man black (eg the bag of soot in the face) is a
>>Cosmetic Transform
>>Turning a black man into an Asiatic is a Minor Transform
>>Turning a woman into a frog is a Major Transform
>
> My general rule on this is:
> If the Transform does not affect the character sheet (except maybe a
>word or two at most), it's a Cosmetic Transform.
Yes.
>If it shifts a few of the target's points around, but the total is the
>same, it's a Minor Transform.
Shifting point is definately Major - shifting SFX can be minor.
> If it changes the point total, it's a Major Transform.
> The number of points that can be shifted with a Minor Transform is the
>maximum that could be rolled on the dice. Similarly, a Major Transform
>could either add or subtract the same maximum. (Again, this is a general
>rule, with many possibilities for exceptions that would seem obscene if it
>were a hard rule.)
But balanced with Disadvantages if points are added.
>>Creating something out of thin air is usually a Major Transform.
>
> With ya on that; I think the rulebook even says so.
>
>>> Do cumulative transforms allow something to
>>> be partially transformed?
>>
>>No.
>
> Agreed, though it would be nice if there was an Advantage (+1/2?) that
>could make a Cumulative Transform into a Gradual Transform.
The problem here is that you get to a stage where the effect is
affecting the target without the character having paid points for it.
Example: a prince being turned into a frog is going to gradually lose
COM.
If you want to do this, then it seems perfectly sensible to me that you
buy an addition power, eg Drain, with appropriate effects. I'd do it
like a poison, with Gradual Effect.
>>> How about one that aggravates an existing disadvantage?
>>
>>This depends: if you're directly affecting the character, then Major;
>>if you're affecting some_thing_ which affects the character, then Minor
>>or major depending upon the degree of change.
>>
>>Example: the Norse god Balder was Vulnerable to holly (or was it
>>mistletoe?). If you change his Vulnerability from holly to oak, that's
>>Major; if you change your oak spear to holly, that's minor; if you
>>change your *steel* spear to holly, then that's Major; if you change
>>your steel spear to look like it's made of holly, to try and make
>>Balder run off, then that's Cosmetic.
>
> By my system, the first would be Minor, the rest Cosmetic.
In the first example, you're semi-permanently affecting the character,
definitely a Major Transform; in the second you're changing the SFX of
your attack. See above for my delineations.
>(I'm not
>saying that your judgements are bad here; I'm just recycling your example.
>It always helps to be environmentally conscious, even in cyberspace.)
<chuckle>
>>>Do the number of points in question matter?
>>
>>Depends upon the effect: if you're Transforming a price into a frog,
>>then no; if you're Ba Kien transforming the local populace into
>>Super-boxers, then additional powers have to be balanced by additional
>>limitations, and the added points can't exceed the Active Points in the
>>power (qv Ninja Hero). Unless the GM so allows it.
>
> Agreed there. If you're just trying to add a Disadvantage ("Worships
>Foxbat"), then the number of points should be limited. If you're trying to
>make gross changes ("He's a chicken, I tell you! A giant chicken!"), then
>why bother?
Agreed, you shouldn't try to balance things like that.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:22:03 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Vehicle Biblio References
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:34 AM 10/17/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>At 05:49 AM 10/15/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> I'd call those two forms "incredibly different"! Just compare Jaguar's
>>two forms in the BBB (a quite similar situation) to see how different they
>>can be! I mean, what are you asking for -- a teenager who transforms into
>>a Trans Am?
>>
>Criminy! What's with all the references? That's Teen Turbo, right?
>Saturday morning cartoon. Also did something similar in the "Pole Position"
>cartoon, where two drivers turned into their cars with cheesy computer
effects.
I was hoping someone could come up with Teen Turbo. I'm trying to build
a bibliography of source material for vehicle-based adventures, and this
title was staying just out of my mental grasp.
I'd forgotten all about Pole Position, too. Gotta add that. :-]
Thanks!
---
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:25:01 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Poll for OS
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:29 AM 10/17/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>At 05:47 AM 10/14/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>At 10:24 AM 10/13/97 -0700, Mark Lemming wrote:
>>>Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>>>> Now, to bring this back to Champions -- anyone besides me been
>>>> tempted to run a session or two with Bill Gates as the big villian?
>>>> Next time I'm in the mood for humor I'm gonna do something of the
sort. Or
>>>> maybe Foxbat kidnaps him for some reason . . . hmmm. Nope, won't
>>>> work, the players wouldn't want to rescue him.
>>>
>>>A friend has him as a recurring villian. He's actually an ancient
>>>dragon that has assumed a human form and is slowly taking over the
>>>world. Except for the dragon part he's just like this world's
>>>version...
>>
>> Or maybe he's a robotic vehicle for a hamster bent on world domination.
>>
>I don't know sounds a little too... Earth C- / Captain Carrot / Zoo Crew
>-ish.
It actually is from Pinky & the Brain. (The Brain was about to try this
when Snowball the Hamster beat him to it.)
---
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca>
From: "Vance Scott" <vances@sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 20:46:57 +0000
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
Reply-to: vances@sympatico.ca
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> >As a GameMaster I find it boring or discouraging to play in a game
> >where I don't like the player characters, or the world. For me it
> >is self defeating to allow the players to define a campaign world,
> >and history I don't like. The players wants, and wishes should be
> >considered during the creation process, but it's the GM that must be
> >satisfied. I'm the one doing the work it's up to me to define the world.
> >The creation process seldom works well in commitee, believe me I've
> >tried.
>
> Um, OK, Vance. By letting the players help, I don't see how that can
> possibly hurt the game
Power Gamers. Not every gamer thinks of the welfare of the game, but
instead of advantages that their characters can have through
definition of the world. I'm the champions Guru of my group the
others aren't as familiar with super hero rpg as I am.
> -- for whom are you running the dang thing, anyway?
Me, and I think anyone who answers differently are deceiving
themselves, or an extremely rare individual.
> I have heard about (and
> played in a few) games where the GM made all the decisions and wouldn't
> even consider that kind of input, but I thought they were the exception.
As i said I've tried gaming by commitee it don't work. If the players
have a good idea i'm more than happy to hear it.
> Sorry that you seem to consider this a personal attack.
I Didn't take it personal.
> Just wondering why, since I don't.
I thought the list of uses that both Robert West and I compiled
answered the why question rather well.
> No need to get all excited-like or nuthin'. Many apologizes,
> guys, if that wasn't obvious.
I rather thought you wanted a reply. I wasn't offended, but it seems
others may have been.
Vance Scott
Vanquisher of all foes.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:50:24 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Ablative Energy Blasts (Was: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 10:00 AM 10/17/97 -0500, Rick Ryker wrote:
>> Well, the way I'd have it work is kinda like overheating from use.
>> The
>> first time the character fires the blast, it works normally; the
>> second
>> time, it gets a 15-; the third time, 14-; and so on. If it doesn't
>> work,
>> then it doesn't "heat up," so the Activation Roll doesn't go down, but
>> any
>> Charges, END, Expendable Foci, and such would still be used.
>>
>This sounds like a variation of BurnOut. Variable BurnOut? Ablative
>BurnOut?
>BurnOut is like Activation except you only roll if it successfully
>activated
>(so you can take both Activation and BurnOut to represent an X
>prototype).
Burnout is a little different from what I'm describing. Let's take an
example for two weapons with the same Limitation level:
Use Ablative 13+ Burnout
1st Works; acts now on 15- Works; roll 8; still good
2nd Roll 8; works; acts now on 14- Works; roll 11; still good
3rd Roll 11; works; acts now on 13- Works; roll 14; burns out
4th Roll 14; does not work Does not work
5th Roll 8; works; acts now on 12- Does not work
See the difference?
---
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:01:10 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Grey Areas
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 10:46 AM 10/17/97 -0500, Rick Ryker wrote:
>> >The way disads work for multiform and duplication is pretty
>> confusing,
>> >cutting them out of the cost calculation might be helpful, though
>> >you'd probably want to increase the cost of multiform, say by
>> starting
>> >it at 0 pts... Multiform cost: 30pts for a 0 base pt multiform
>> +5/1pt,
>> >15pts +10/1 for each additional form. Forms cannot have more base
>> points
>> >than the base forms base pts + exp, and cannot have more disads than
>> >the normal champaign limit.
>>
>> I like this plan, at least provisionally. I've never liked the
>> rule of
>> paying for points in "secondary entities" that are covered by
>> Disadvantages. It's like paying for them twice, or taking
>> Disadvantages on
>> a character without *really* getting points for them.
>>
>There is a fundamental difference between a follower bought as a disad
>and a follower bought with character points.
A "Follower" bought *as* as Disad isn't a Follower; it's a DNPC. It
also has nothing to do with what I was talking about.
What I was talking about was that, in most cases, a "secondary entity"
based on 75 points with 75 points of Disadvantages costs the main character
just as much as one based on 100 points with 50 points of Disadvantages,
or one based on 150 points with no Disadvantages. This isn't true of
Followers (which use Base Points), but it is true of Duplicates and
Multiforms. (I'm not clear on Summon for this one.)
>That these two persons can be the same just means that your sidekick
>(to use an old Golden Age Champions term) helps you a lot (a la Rhodey)
>but also frequently gets into trouble (plot device).
I would not allow a character to take the same individual as both a
Follower and a DNPC. The character is either a DNPC with useful Skills, a
Follower with Disadvantages that get him into trouble, or a fellow PC.
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:03:27 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: hero cannon?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 10:20 AM 10/17/97 -0500, Rick Ryker wrote:
>If you look at the rules before 4th Edition and the references above
>that also existed before 4th Edition, you will find that most of these
>'optional'
>rules were included in 4th Edition (if only stream-lined a bit).
>Especially the Adventurers Club. As a matter of fact, the AC usually
>published clarifications to parts of the rules that seemed ambiguous.
A lot of this attitude seemed to change after the 4th ed came out,
though. A number of books since then have had expansions of the rules, but
not all of the rules expansions have found their way into other volumes.
>Most of the questions in this forum have been hashed over before in AC.
>"There is nothing new under the sun." (Who said this? Biblical?)
Solomon, I believe.
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:09:14 -0700
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Powwow
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:13 PM 10/17/97 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> Not so much bigoted as insensitive, perhaps. It depends. As I
>stated in my post, using the ideas, concepts, and beliefs of a
culture
>without that culture's permission is straight out cultural theft.
Since I cannot ask a 'culture' for anything, how can it give me
permission? Where do I write to "Indian Culture" to ask for
permission to use one of their symbols? Is there a form to fill out?
The entire concept of 'cultural theft' is ridiculous, and, frankly,
more than a little revolting.
The
>concept is nebulous in the legal arena, but it is getting more
>recognition. I would point everyone to the "Wannabi Tribe" home
page,
>which pointed out the worst examples on the net, but the maintaniner
shut
>it down to concentrate on legal action against the perpretators.
Instead,
>check out the "A Line in the Sand" page, dedicated to guarding
against
>cultural theft -- at least of Native American culture.
There is no such thing as 'cultural theft', because a 'culture'
cannot own anything -- a 'culture' does not exist as reified entity.
Only individuals can exist, and, while an individual can own specific
creative works, they cannot own a culture.(In other words, I can own
a book I wrote. I cannot own the concept of 'novel', even though that
concept is linked to a specific culture. If a Native American writes
a novel, using a literary form which is purely European, does that
mean he is committing 'cultural theft'?)
Or do you think all those High School teams with psuedo-Greek warrior
insignia are 'stealing' Greek culture? The Greeks of today are the
direct physical and cultural descendants of the Greeks who worshipped
Zeus and told tales of Achilles and Ulyysses -- why so little fuss
over 'cultural theft' from them?
Should I be allowed to create 'anime style' game worlds, since I'm
not Japanese? Perhaps I ought to avoid superheroes entirely, since
the Nieztchian inspiration would be stealing from German culture.
Hell, the entire concept of role-playing descends from theatre, which
is from the Greeks -- and I never asked 'Greek Culture' for
permission to steal one of their sacred rites. (And, YES -- ancient
Greek theatre was as ritualised and important to them as the powwow
was to the tribes which practiced it.)
EVERYTHING is 'cultural theft' since we are all living in a polyglot
society which has built "its" culture on bits and pieces "stolen"
from countless others. To claim that one culture ought to be
'protected' from such 'theft' is ridiculous. It's also racist --
implying that culture (a set of learned behaviors) can be linked to
genetic heritage, and enforced by law. (I dimly recall at least one
case where an artist was told he was not allowed to produce crafts in
an 'Indian' style, because he was not of the correct ancestry. THAT
is an *obscenity*. Similair issues are occuring in Australia. No one
has a right to tell someone else what they can create or think, and
if I am inspired by Japanese, or Native American, or Australian
Aborigine art or myth or craft, then I have EVERY right to create
according to my inspiration, just as members of that culture have a
right to imitate Jewish art, craft, or myth, if they are so
inspired.)
(I, speaking as a Representative Of Jewish Culture (and who is to
claim I am not?), hereby grant permission to all peoples of all races
and ancestry to use our icons, myths, legends, traditions, and slang
for your own creative works, in perpetuity and without further
obligation. Have fun!)
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:13:19 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Non-Stereotypical Minority Supers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 10:36 AM 10/17/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote:
>> characters in Horror Enemies are stereotypes (though Maze is a kewl twist
>
> Horror Enemies?
>Did I miss something in my shopping cart?
Creatures of the Night: Horror Enemies.
Featuring the Devil's Advocates (of whom Maze is a member), the Totems,
the Great Beast, Archimago, and Rev. Gil Purdue, to name just the stereotypes.
It's written by Dean Shomshak (author of The Ultimate Super Mage), but I
recommend its purchase anyway. A lot of the stuff there is really
interesting.
---
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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:14:17 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Subject: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
I just had the opportunity to go meandering through "A Line in the
Sand Page". I found some references to Tribal.com and Powwow, things I
hadn't actually seen before.
It's a lot worse than I orignailly thought. Before, I just would
refuse to use it and hope others did the same. Now I fervrently urge
others to not use the product and to write or e-mail the company
expressing outrage at the product and site.
The company is *NOT* founded or owned or funded by any natives or
native tribes. In fact, it is a sub-corporation of McAfee, the virus
people. (Whose products I from this time refuse to use.) I didn't
explore the whole thing before, but it seems to be a great joke to McAfee.
Check out the editorial at URL
http://indy4.fdl.cc.mn.us/~isk/editorial.html
Here is a link to an explination on how the page is quite racist
(yes, I mean that term now) and offensive to native american cultures.
There is also some email back and forth from the author to McAfee where he
trates the whole subject as a farce.
I'm quite angry after reading it right now, but I urge others to
check out the editorial. Its a little more justification for my earlier
views than I previously provided.
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:16:35 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Power modifiers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:36 AM 10/17/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>BG> 1) It must be bought either Usable Against Others, or possibly
>BG> Usable By Others.
>
>Just remember that when you apply Usable Against Others to a power it then
>may be used to make attacks. As such, you need to define a reasonably
>common defense or set of defenses against the power -- and this can be
>difficult for powers that normally have no defense and do no damage.
>Usable Against Others on movement powers should be considered a last
>resort.
I agree, especially with the last sentence. If one wants an AE
movement, I'd recommend representing it with an AE TK Linked to the
Movement.
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:31:21 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Unbalanced Mental Power ?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:45 PM 10/17/97 -0300, Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria wrote:
>
> If someone gets a telepathy, and very good mind scan and ego attack
>for example. He can make a telepathy link with someone of his team, and
>then away from the danger of the battle, and receiving information about
>the battle from his partner he could just mind scan and ego attack any
>opponent his partner could detect, being almost completely safe. And he
>could even get these powers by an Elemental Control.
> Is this right ? What do you think about this ?
I would allow this. In fact, it's a little disappointing that the
Flashmen (in Allies) don't have a character like this. However, the
character is in for some complications.
First of all, any Mentalist IMC would be Hunted by Headhunter. I'm
giving some serious consideration to giving him a following, too. Since
most mentalists are also mutants, that adds PSI (who wants to recruit all
mutant mentalists) and Genocide (whose current main activity is trying to
exterminate all supposedly "good" mutants) to the Hunted roster.
Then again, it won't take much for the villains to figure out what this
mentalist is up to, and either counterstrike or try to duplicate it. In
fact, Steve Long calls this "The Mentalist Sniper Syndrome" in The Ultimate
Mentalist (page 89), and gives some recommendations on counteracting it.
My main tactic for this would be counteraction and reciprocation. The
majority of villain groups I use have at least one mentalist; if they're
not capable of doing this specific trick, they can do something similar.
Those that don't can develop and/or bring with them appropriate equipment,
like Mental Detectors and weapons with No Range Penalty. Smear campaigns
in the press are cool too, for those using underhanded tactics.
Oh, and one mechanical note: mechanically speaking, the mentalist could
not accurately get position information from his colleague via Telepathy,
or even Mind Link (though the latter is recommended for mentalists for
unrelated reasons). Nor would he need to, if he had Mind Scan. But if he
wants to target opponents without Mind Scan (which is, by most accounts
including TUM, detectable by the target), he could get Clairsentience on
Sight. (Whether he'd need to buy that Clairsentience as a Targeting Sense
is a matter of interpretation.)
Now I hope I haven't started yet another debate on mechanics....
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 97 22:36:11
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Minimum costs
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On Sat, 18 Oct 1997 11:21:42 -0700, Rick Holding wrote:
>-- Thanks for the responses on my last question. AoE applied to non
>attack powers is used occassionly by our gaming group with restrictions.
> As far as I know, none of us also apply the useable against others as
>well but neither is selective targeting on the AoE.
>
> the next question is minimum costs. Many powers have a minimum
>cost associated with the power (Flight, Teleport, Tunneling, Flash
>Defence, etc). The argument at the moment is whether the minimum cost is
>before or after the application of power advantages. Any comments?
Since the rules use the terminology "character points" I have always assumed this
included advantages and limitations; as character points are the actual points you
spend to buy things. Frameworks, however, obvuscate the issue. Also, as a GM, I
make special allowances for low end games (Fantasy Hero, Justice Inc, etc...).
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:41:38 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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Trevor Barrie wrote:
> > It seems straightforward to me that, in the latter case, Desolid would
> > _not_ protect from the effect. I certainly wouldn't allow Desolid to
> > protect a character from a Susceptibility for which they gained points, so
> > why should it protect from an "everyman" Susc?
> >
> > I see no reason that most susceptibilities would affect most desolid
> > characters.
> >
> > The rules state that you get no defense against your suscpetibility.
> > Desolid isn't technically a defense, of course, but it seems to me that
> > the intent of that rule is to make sure that the player can't use their
> > Powers or stats to render the Susceptibility irrelevant.
> Desolid as a defence protecting from susceptibilities may or may not work
depending on the susceptibiliy itself. If the susceptibility is a substance that must
come in contact with the person (Salt for instance) then desoldification may protect him
or her from it depending on the special effects of the desolid (shifted to a higher
plane).
On the other hand, if its from radiation (green argonite meteorites) or special
areas (Vampires vs holy ground or crosses) then being desolid probarly wont help a bit.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:44:22 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Power modifiers
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What's peoples opinions on Area of Effect applied to non attack powers, like Life
Support, Flight ....or Teleport.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:49:23 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
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> Rick Ryker wrote:
> >
> > INSTANT CHANGE: "A character with this Special Power can
> > instantly change from one identity to another and back again."
> > "A character can change into any set of clothes he wants for
> > 10 Character Points."
> >
> > This doesn't say anything about lugging focii around.
> >
> > ACCIDENTAL CHANGE: No. This doesn't seem right.
> > Any of his enemies could repeat the magical incantation.
> >
> > (OIHI) "Only In Hero ID can also be used to simulate characters
> > who seem to have a Focus but somehow never lose it." (- 1/4)
> >
> > Well, your character lost his Sword, if only for a phase.
> > The OIHI limitation is clearly not enough to model this.
> >
> > FOCUS: The Sword: Well, it was Accessible, and Obvious.
> > And it obviously wasn't Immobile or Bulky or Expendable.
> > Breakable or Unbreakable? An unbreakable focus can be broken
> > in the one way defined by the character when it was bought.
> > An unbreakable focus can still be stolen though.
> > If an unbreakable focus is stolen, it has to be retrieved, it can't
> > be created again very easily. Not retrieved, not re-made.
> > A breakable focus can be repaired, rebuilt, or replaced by the
> > character with some effort. No break, and no effort here, though.
> > Personal or Universal? Well, universal because his enemy tried
> > to whack him with it. (Unless his enemy also qualifies under
> > the special effect of the Universal part of the focus.)
> >
> > Although it has most of the characteristics of a Focus,
> > I would say that this was not a Focus, just a special effect.
> >
> > The question is: How did the player lose his special effect weapon?
> >
> > I would say that this wasn't a focus and he could have just
> > wished it back into his hand instead of taking a phase to change
> > clothes and a phase to change back. (5 seconds each)
> >
> > If it was a focus, then Hero ID or no Hero ID he lost his focus.
> > I seem to recall Thor losing his hammer at least once.
> > No, that was after he lost his mortal identity (Only In Hero ID).
> > I don't think Thor's hammer was a Focus until after he lost
> > his mortal identity.
> >
> > -RICK
> >
> > ----------------------------------------
> > All quotes are from Hero Games' "Super Role-playing Game and HERO System
> > Rules;
> > Champions: The Super Role-Playing Game (R)" Fourth Edition, First
> > Printing dated 1989.
-- I had a character, (recently killed after ten years of play), who
had a sword, shield and armour. The armour and shield were foci with all
the pro's and con's which go with it.
The sword was a special effect that could be taken and disarmed
and all the rest. It was to all intents and purposes a foci. But it was
not brought with the foci limits. It had a couple of small limitations
that I had to be unheld to use it and if taken. I needed to spend a half
phase to call it back, actually shouting out its name. Both of these got
me a 1/4 back each.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
X-Sender: mactyre@mail.aci.net
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:16:50 -0700
From: Matthew Mactyre <mactyre@aci.net>
Subject: Re: What a Timeline is truely good for
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
At 11:35 AM 10/16/97 -0700, Rook wrote:
> I agree here. I can't stand being railroaded. Many of the online
PBeM'sread
>that way. The only exeption I found was the first half of the VC PBeM.
>Unfortunatly, it too fell into railroading in the latter half. The G3 game
was
>also a heavy victim of this. Every action taken went against the PC's
somehow.
>I'm currently lurking through as many PBeM's as I can. Mostly so I can
choose
>the style I'll use when/if I decide to GM one myself. But also to compare
and
>note the good and bad points of them.
Brian,
You don't know what you are talking about here. I have the advantage of
looking over Shelley's shoulder when she is running the G3 games, and she
doesn't railroad players into any action. There are times when the players
need to be pointed in a certain direction to further the plot. In a face to
face game this is a much easier proposition, in PBEM it is more like
cooperative storytelling and the GM often has to lead the way. I'm sure when
you have run as much PBEM as Shelley has you'll understand the process
better.
Regards,
Matthew
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_________________
Matthew Mactyre
mactyre@aci.net
http://www.mactyre.net
PGP Key available on request
PGP fingerprint = A2 AE 68 AE 2E 96 94 C3 30 ED 53 59 A6 FF 3B 1F
If you can't describe it with numbers, it isn't a science.
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 20:44:07 -0300 (EST)
From: Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria <gevaerd@laranjeiras.lci.ufrj.br>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Unbalanced Mental Power ?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> Oh, and one mechanical note: mechanically speaking, the mentalist could
> not accurately get position information from his colleague via Telepathy,
> or even Mind Link (though the latter is recommended for mentalists for
> unrelated reasons). Nor would he need to, if he had Mind Scan. But if he
> wants to target opponents without Mind Scan (which is, by most accounts
> including TUM, detectable by the target), he could get Clairsentience on
> Sight. (Whether he'd need to buy that Clairsentience as a Targeting Sense
> is a matter of interpretation.)
Can someone with Mind Scan search for "hostile opponents that
might be attacking his friends" without even knowing who might that
opponents do or if they exist? What is the minimum information he
need to know to be able to try to "connect" to an enemy by mind scan ? Or
what side effects there could be depending on his knowledge? (like
targeting a random person for example)
[]s.
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:23:18 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Power modifiers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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David Streeter wrote:
>
> On 17 Oct 97 at 15:44, Rick Holding rhetorically propounded:
>
> > What's peoples opinions on Area of Effect applied to non attack powers, like Life
> > Support, Flight ....or Teleport.
>
> Reasonably useless unless also bought with usable by/against others.
>
> David
> --------------------------------------------------
> David Streeter <surturz@zip.com.au>
> Synchrotech Software
> Pager: Dial 016020 & Quote Pager #247689 to operator
-- Its a grey area. The various AoE's apply the effects of the power to
everybody within the area. Nowhere in the write-up, other than with the
examples, does it say that it must be an attack. While I admit that
Useable against others and by others is available, I can't see any reason
why AoE can't also be used in restricted cases.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:23:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Unbalanced Mental Power ?
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria writes:
Can someone with Mind Scan search for "hostile opponents that
> might be attacking his friends" without even knowing who might that
> opponents do or if they exist? What is the minimum information he
> need to know to be able to try to "connect" to an enemy by mind scan ? Or
> what side effects there could be depending on his knowledge? (like
> targeting a random person for example)
Mind scan is _horribly_ vague about such things; judging by the wording it
might well be possible to mindscan for 'villians'. Certainly, it seems like
mindscan for 'the person who robbed the bank last week' might be possible,
since that is (probably) a unique individual.
We've never really come up with solid rules for mindscan in the games I've been
in; I usually would limit it to people you 'know', or have at least met, but
there's no really solid rule.
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 20:23:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Non-Stereotypical Minority Supers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On 17 Oct 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >>>>> "GH" == Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> writes:
>
> GH> Where can we find some information on what the differences between
> GH> the different tribes would be? Can you recommend any books on the
> GH> subject?
<snip>
> I strongly recomend "Ceremony" and "The Way to Rainy Mountain".
> Unfortunately I forget the respective authors' names.
For info on the plains indians and their world view, I recommend
"The Mystic Warriors of the Plains" by Thomas Mails
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 20:40:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Non-Stereotypical Minority Supers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> > What sort of Native American heroes would be considered
> >non-stereotypical and non-offensive? Most of the Marvel ones had some sort
> >of "Indian" motif. I somewhat imagined that some would do that. I'd like
> >to interject some minority Supers into my games (probably as NPCs) but would
> >like them to be non-stereotypes. Yes, some will probably be stereotypical,
> >but I want some to be surprising, and I would like them all to have depth.
> >A little help (and some opinions) would be greatly appreciated.
I have a Native American PC that I plaid for a while Mary (aka Merriya)
Highwolf, better known to most as Koyotie. A Souix indian, she is a
native of Canada (and in the game) Canada's only real paranormal
operative. Her powers where stats all near the human maxima (20) with a
DEX of 33 and a SPD of 7. Naturally, she's a martial artist, using a mix
of Shotokan karate and kabri-kablong/le drit. About the only thing
'traditional' about her is the fact she wears a feather in her hair (for
counting coup). She certainly wasn't steeped in all the mystical
traditions that many Native American characters seem to be in most comics.
A full character sheet is avalaible on my web site.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 20:53:38 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: RE: Ablative Energy Blasts (Was: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>>>This sounds like a variation of BurnOut. Variable BurnOut? Ablative
>>BurnOut?
Heh. A fellow gamer in University had me help him flesh out his
'construction tools and items' gadget pool. We came up with "The I-BEAM".
As you might guess, this is a big steel I-beam, which basically was a decent
sized Hand Attack with some advantages (AE: Cone, I believe, for those
devastating sweeping attacks), and Ablative Burnout (-3/4). Basically, as he
kept hitting his opponant(s), the I-beam kept taking more and more damage,
until it finally broke and had to be replaced :-).
Mechanically, he attacked people, hit them, and rolled his activation
(ablative). If the declining activation roll failed, it 'burned out'.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:27:31 -0800
From: rbezold <rbezold@nwrain.com>
Subject: unsubscribe
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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unsubscribe
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-4,6,8-16
From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David W Toomey)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 00:15:19 EDT
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> However, a Multiform can have more points than the base character
>if the
>base character spends 1:1 point for the extras.
No, the most expensive version, not counting Multiform costs *is* the
base character,
and has to pay the multiform costs for the others. If one of the other
forms becomes
more expensive, than *it* becomes the base.
David W Toomey
dwtoomey@juno.com
From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 01:34:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Fwd: Hero canon?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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In a message dated 97-10-17 11:03:59 EDT, Hero Games writes:
Thought the list might be interested in seeing this.
<< In a message dated 97-10-17 00:38:49 EDT, you write:
<< I have a question for you about the different rulebooks. Is it right or
wrong to say that the Hero System Rules (those found in the hardbound 4th ed)
are the only 'official' rules, and that every other book contains 'optional'
rules, or do all carry the same 'officialness'? I understand that each GM is
free to use whichever rules they prefer. however I'm confused when people
dismiss rules outright simply because they aren't 'canon'. I've spoken with
players and GMs who will not accept rules from other books such as Negative
Characteristics from Almanac, because they are not in the 'official core
rules' and are therefore optional at best. Is there an official position
from Herogames? >>
Our official position is that all rules are optional; each GM should decide
for themselves what rules to use. The rules in the Hero System rulebook
(which is included in Champions 4th Edition) cover most situations pretty
well. However, we've presented many other rules in other books, either as
variants or rules for other situations not covered in the basic rules.
Whether or not those rules are used is up to the GM in each case; we don't
think that our opinion should be held over that of an individual GM. Each GM
should make their rule choices as they see fit, to make the game suit their
own style, and their sense of what is fun. We tend to like most of the
optional rules we've presented, otherwise we wouldn't have presented them.
But that doesn't mean we use those rules all of the time, or that all of us
at Hero hold each of those rules in the same esteem. Opinions vary, and
that's as it should be, or so we think.
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games >>
---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: Re: Hero canon?
Date: 97-10-17 11:03:59 EDT
From: Hero Games
To: Firelynx16
In a message dated 97-10-17 00:38:49 EDT, you write:
<< I have a question for you about the different rulebooks. Is it right or
wrong to say that the Hero System Rules (those found in the hardbound 4th ed)
are the only 'official' rules, and that every other book contains 'optional'
rules, or do all carry the same 'officialness'? I understand that each GM is
free to use whichever rules they prefer. however I'm confused when people
dismiss rules outright simply because they aren't 'canon'. I've spoken with
players and GMs who will not accept rules from other books such as Negative
Characteristics from Almanac, because they are not in the 'official core
rules' and are therefore optional at best. Is there an official position
from Herogames? >>
Our official position is that all rules are optional; each GM should decide
for themselves what rules to use. The rules in the Hero System rulebook
(which is included in Champions 4th Edition) cover most situations pretty
well. However, we've presented many other rules in other books, either as
variants or rules for other situations not covered in the basic rules.
Whether or not those rules are used is up to the GM in each case; we don't
think that our opinion should be held over that of an individual GM. Each GM
should make their rule choices as they see fit, to make the game suit their
own style, and their sense of what is fun. We tend to like most of the
optional rules we've presented, otherwise we wouldn't have presented them.
But that doesn't mean we use those rules all of the time, or that all of us
at Hero hold each of those rules in the same esteem. Opinions vary, and
that's as it should be, or so we think.
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 22:46:26 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Bob Greenwade wrote:
> What I was talking about was that, in most cases, a "secondary entity"
> based on 75 points with 75 points of Disadvantages costs the main character
> just as much as one based on 100 points with 50 points of Disadvantages,
> or one based on 150 points with no Disadvantages. This isn't true of
> Followers (which use Base Points), but it is true of Duplicates and
> Multiforms. (I'm not clear on Summon for this one.)
This shouldn't make any difference, though, since most games will
have all players on the same scale (all 100+150 or all 75+75, etc.),
thus there would be no character inequities, and as for the follower(s);
the comparative savings reflects the fact that a follower is
GM-CONTROLLED, based on the player's original conception; Dupes and
Multis are directly controlled by the player, thus more expensive to
reflect more control.
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 23:20:53 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: New Powers Plug-In (
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Jason A. Dour wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> This letter is probably pointless, but I feel it had to be said anyway...
>
> On 17 Oct 1997, Opal wrote:
> > Well, if a Hero player wants the background from New Melinium, he's
> > also buying a book for a system he'll never play. I don't see the
> > difference.
>
> As I stated in my original post, I was asking for HERO4 thoughts,
> experiences, and knowledge -- *NOT* Fuzion-specific information. Is that
> *NOT* what this list is about -- helping with HERO4? Is it truly
> impossible for someone to get helpful information instead of being told
> that they're going about their gaming incorrectly?
<some of rant snipped>
> Well, contrary to what you or some of the other thread writers
> might believe, I *DO* own HERO4. In fact, I probably own 75% or more of
> all HERO4 products. Does that mean I know *everything* about HERO4? No.
> Does that mean I shouldn't solicit intelligent input from other sources?
> No. But obviously, since I'm one of the traitorous players who have moved
> to Fuzion over HERO4, I don't deserve help from the members of this forum.
Allow me, please, to interject at this juncture....
First of all, Yes there have been posts to your request belying the
attitude of many of the died-in-the wool, hard-ass C4 loyalists. But
that's what many if not most of the members of this list are. As a
result of this attitude, there was something of a letdown after all of
the hype about the Fuzion system, and many are worried about the
potential lack of support for their (our) favorite gaming system. This
makes some people testy....
That said, I wouldn't give up too quickly on your request; every few
weeks or so there is a topic or question that spawns vitriol and
name-calling and heated debates verging on fisticuffs, but they calm
down and blow over, and things are actually learned to a greater or
lesser degree when it's all done. Dunno why, but that's the little
community we have here. Anyway, if you just stick it out a bit, I'll
bet you will run across someone who will actually answer your
question(s).
(In fact, I would put in my own two cents, but I lost the original
question/post - if you'd like to repost, you may get a warmer reception
this time. Or the next....)
-Capt. Spith
----
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 23:33:47 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Non-Stereotypical Minority Supers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> TRG> The tribe calls itself Asseniboine -- meaning, basically, "the
> TRG> people".)
>
> You will find that most tribes' or nations' names for themselves translates
> as "the people" or something similar.
This is a timeless concept; from Star Trek (Okay, so it's not from
'real time')
"They say they are human."
"Every species is 'human' in their own language..."
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
X-Sender: scm@mail.aci.net
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 23:38:43 -0700
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 08:46 PM 10/17/97 +0000, Vance Scott wrote:
>Power Gamers. Not every gamer thinks of the welfare of the game, but
>instead of advantages that their characters can have through
>definition of the world. I'm the champions Guru of my group the
>others aren't as familiar with super hero rpg as I am.
>
Ah...sorry. I'm very happy with my gaming group -- they're very
interesting, very different people with all sorts of experiences, and on
top of that, they're all friends. I wouldn't game with the type of people
you're describing, so that would probably explain why I didn't understand
your POV before. In my case, I can afford to be trusting, knowing that as
a whole we're much more likely to create a world and background reflecting
our differences, and thus creating something more real. But then again,
your players might surprise you, if you give them a chance.
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
www.mactyre.net
Your children will see the stars.
--Robert A. Heinlein
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 00:02:02 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Minimum costs
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Rick Holding wrote:
> the next question is minimum costs. Many powers have a minimum
> cost associated with the power (Flight, Teleport, Tunneling, Flash
> Defence, etc). The argument at the moment is whether the minimum cost is
> before or after the application of power advantages. Any comments?
I believe that the minimum cost is is based on 'effective' power
(otherwise known as "before advantages"). Think of it as the minimum
'quanta' (as in 'quantum mechanics'), whereas the 'minimum cost' is the
smallest unit a power can be broken down into. Advantages are forces
acting upon the minimum quanta, but cannot reduce the minimum size of
it. (Sorry, I've just been rereading Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History
of Time")
Personally, however, I don't generally worry about minimum costs in
my games, since I'm always running across situations that require, say,
only 1" of flight. It would have to be naturally suggested from the
character concept, of course....
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 12:26:24 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: What a Timeline is truely good for
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Matthew Mactyre wrote:
> You don't know what you are talking about here. I have the advantage of
> looking over Shelley's shoulder when she is running the G3 games, and she
> doesn't railroad players into any action. There are times when the players
> need to be pointed in a certain direction to further the plot.
By definition, this _is_ railroading. Whether you consider it acceptable
or not is, of course, a matter of play style.
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 10:38:12 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Rick Ryker wrote:
>
> > >>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes:
> >
> > JD> So, Instant Change means you can't have OIHID?!?!?!?
> >
> > Pretty much. If unrestricted Instant Change allows you to circumvent
> > the
> > restrictions of OHID then OHID is worth no bonus.
> >
> The Only In Hero ID restrictions cannot be circumvented just by having
> Instant Change. First of all, you have to change. Second, you may not
> be able to change freely for psychological or practical reasons.
> ("Well, Lois is in trouble. But I can't change into Superman in the
> middle
> of this crowd. I need to get to a phone booth quick!")
> I know this is not a good example. A better one would have Thor's alter
> ego
> having to duck behind a partition or something else to hide behind so he
> can
> hit the floor with his walking stick. Which by the way is Instant
> Change with
> Power Limitations of OAF and "must hit stick/hammer on ground/floor".
>
> If your campaign is nothing but fighting all the time and the characters
> never
> need to sleep or change into their non-combat personas, then OIHID is
> not
> worth anything. If your campaign has a fair amount of non-combat time,
> and/or the character is in his non Hero ID at least part of the time,
> then it
> is worth full value, because the Powers are limited for the time the
> character
> stays in non-HERO ID. Just because he has Instant Change doesn't mean
> he will always change back and forth. The fact that the character in
> the
> example that started this thread did a back to back Instant Change out
> of
> and back into his Hero ID is something the GM will have to come up with
> consequences for. Make the PC lose his Secret ID disadvantage.
> Maybe give him a Public ID disadvantage. Where is the media in all
> this?
> "Mr. PlainGuy, would you please tell the world what it's like to be able
> to
> change into SuperDuperBoy any time you want to?" "No comment."
> "But Mr. PlainGuy, the world wants to know!"
> "Mommy, can you ask Mr. PlainGuy if he can turn into SuperDuperBoy and
> rescue my kitty cat for me? Please?" "FLASH! SuperDuperBoy refuses
> to save little girl's kitty!"
> If that doesn't work or no one else was around at the time of the
> change,
> remember that the villian now knows who SuperDuperBoy is in his non-Hero
> ID.
> Time to have the villian make SuperDuperBoy's life a real pain.
> Hmmm. Only thing I see here is a GM who is not enforcing the disads.
>
> -RICK
-- And how many people who have OIHID have any armour when they are
normal. Sniper from the roof is all it takes.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 10:56:31 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Vox Ludator! wrote:
>
> At 05:39 AM 10/15/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> > Hm. I'd thought that this was clear enough, if not from the text then
> >from the examples under Knockback and the Combat Example on pages 210-212.
> >Does someone (whether on the list, or just known by someone on the list)
> >actually use BODY done after defenses for Knockback?
>
> I remember getting a lecture from one of the frequent posters here once on
> how the wording of the passage 'clearly' (I try to avoid using the word
> 'clearly' with ANYTHING related to HERO :/ ) showed KB was based on BODY
> taken after defenses.
>
> --
> Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely. |
> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
> Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
-- Knockback is determined by the amount of body of the attack. Look at
the example of the advantage double knockback in the BBB (p94). Also
page 166 gives several examples of knockback done. The amount of defence
of the target is academic. The only things that will change the amount
of knockback are increased mass, knockback resistance or the use of
flight or strength to hold yourself in position (which has bad effects on
your DCV.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 11:21:42 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Minimum costs
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
-- Thanks for the responses on my last question. AoE applied to non
attack powers is used occassionly by our gaming group with restrictions.
As far as I know, none of us also apply the useable against others as
well but neither is selective targeting on the AoE.
the next question is minimum costs. Many powers have a minimum
cost associated with the power (Flight, Teleport, Tunneling, Flash
Defence, etc). The argument at the moment is whether the minimum cost is
before or after the application of power advantages. Any comments?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 15:06:09 -0800
Organization: Terminal BBS (403)327-9731
Subject: Grey Areas
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
-=> Quoting Bob Greenwade to Mike Lehmann <=-
BG> What I was talking about was that, in most cases, a "secondary
BG> entity" based on 75 points with 75 points of Disadvantages costs the
BG> main character just as much as one based on 100 points with 50 points
BG> of Disadvantages, or one based on 150 points with no Disadvantages.
BG> This isn't true of Followers (which use Base Points), but it is true of
BG> Duplicates and Multiforms. (I'm not clear on Summon for this one.)
I usually go with 40% Base points and 60% Disads, so that 150-pt entity would be 60 base and 90 disads, IMO.
mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net - - - - - Justice Krewe / Enigma Watch GM
- - - - - - http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html - - - - - -
... A penny saved... is a Congressional oversight.
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
JM> I can'
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internet: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net <<<<<<<<<<<
The TERMINAL BBS Fidonet; 1:358/17
Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada 1:358/18
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Minimum costs
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 18 Oct 1997 21:29:05 -0400
Lines: 26
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "RH" == Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> writes:
RH> the next question is minimum costs. Many powers have a minimum
RH> cost associated with the power (Flight, Teleport, Tunneling, Flash
RH> Defence, etc). The argument at the moment is whether the minimum cost is
RH> before or after the application of power advantages. Any comments?
"Minimum costs" are for the base power before any advantages.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
\ Earth, presumably from outer space.
From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 23:24:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Fwd: Hero canon?(Steve Peterson's answer)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I don't know if i did this right the first time, so here it is again. Sorry
if it's a duplicate.
---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: Re: Hero canon?
Date: 97-10-17 11:03:59 EDT
From: Hero Games
To: Firelynx16
In a message dated 97-10-17 00:38:49 EDT, you write:
<< I have a question for you about the different rulebooks. Is it right or
wrong to say that the Hero System Rules (those found in the hardbound 4th ed)
are the only 'official' rules, and that every other book contains 'optional'
rules, or do all carry the same 'officialness'? I understand that each GM is
free to use whichever rules they prefer. however I'm confused when people
dismiss rules outright simply because they aren't 'canon'. I've spoken with
players and GMs who will not accept rules from other books such as Negative
Characteristics from Almanac, because they are not in the 'official core
rules' and are therefore optional at best. Is there an official position
from Herogames? >>
Our official position is that all rules are optional; each GM should decide
for themselves what rules to use. The rules in the Hero System rulebook
(which is included in Champions 4th Edition) cover most situations pretty
well. However, we've presented many other rules in other books, either as
variants or rules for other situations not covered in the basic rules.
Whether or not those rules are used is up to the GM in each case; we don't
think that our opinion should be held over that of an individual GM. Each GM
should make their rule choices as they see fit, to make the game suit their
own style, and their sense of what is fun. We tend to like most of the
optional rules we've presented, otherwise we wouldn't have presented them.
But that doesn't mean we use those rules all of the time, or that all of us
at Hero hold each of those rules in the same esteem. Opinions vary, and
that's as it should be, or so we think.
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games
Web Page created by Text2Web v1.3.6 by Dev Virdi
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Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 11:20 AM