Week Ending October 25, 1997
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 14:47:07 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: What a Timeline is truely good for
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At 12:26 PM 10/18/97 -0300, you wrote:
>On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Matthew Mactyre wrote:
>
>> You don't know what you are talking about here. I have the advantage of
>> looking over Shelley's shoulder when she is running the G3 games, and she
>> doesn't railroad players into any action. There are times when the players
>> need to be pointed in a certain direction to further the plot.
>
>By definition, this _is_ railroading. Whether you consider it acceptable
>or not is, of course, a matter of play style.
>
>
Precisely. railroading is to be avoided, even if you consider it
'acceptable'. This is another of those behaviours that a gm should
guard against over-using, or even useing at all. .
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 00:51:32 -0400
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> From: Tim R. Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
> To: champ-l@omg.org
> Subject: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
> Date: Friday, October 17, 1997 5:14 PM
>
> I just had the opportunity to go meandering through "A Line in the
> Sand Page". I found some references to Tribal.com and Powwow,
things I
> hadn't actually seen before.
>
> It's a lot worse than I orignailly thought. Before, I just would
> refuse to use it and hope others did the same. Now I fervrently
urge
> others to not use the product and to write or e-mail the company
> expressing outrage at the product and site.
>
> The company is *NOT* founded or owned or funded by any natives or
> native tribes. In fact, it is a sub-corporation of McAfee, the
virus
> people. (Whose products I from this time refuse to use.) I didn't
> explore the whole thing before, but it seems to be a great joke to
McAfee.
> Check out the editorial at URL
>
> http://indy4.fdl.cc.mn.us/~isk/editorial.html
>
> Here is a link to an explination on how the page is quite racist
> (yes, I mean that term now) and offensive to native american
cultures.
> There is also some email back and forth from the author to McAfee
where he
> trates the whole subject as a farce.
>
> I'm quite angry after reading it right now, but I urge others to
> check out the editorial. Its a little more justification for my
earlier
> views than I previously provided.
>
>
> -Tim Gilberg
>
Being part Cherokee, I thought it important to check out these
various websites, including the URL
Tim Gilberg lists above, produced by Paula Giese. I agree completely
with Tim Gilberg's views.
Tribal.com is a sham and a tax dodge that would make many hardworking
con artists squirm with
unease. John McAfee's condescending and abusive attitude toward
Paula Giese, who has the
courage and common sense to point out the "emporor has no clothes,"
makes John McAfee a lousy
businessman in addition to being the patron of racist operation.
Smart bigots at least have the sense
to supress their racist attitudes when dealing with potential
customers.
That Tribal Voice, supposedly an educational website, has also
provided links to sites devoted to
tasteless adult material as examples of "Indian humor" is also
disturbing. I'm no prude or advocate of
censorship, but I do think there are things on the Web kids should
not be readily guided toward.
This is one consumer that McAfee Associates has alienated forever.
There are several posters to this mailing list who owe Tim Gilberg an
apology.
Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com
X-Sender: scm@mail.aci.net
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 00:28:34 -0700
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: What a Timeline is truly good for
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At 12:26 PM 10/18/97 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Matthew Mactyre wrote:
>
>> You don't know what you are talking about here. I have the advantage of
>> looking over Shelley's shoulder when she is running the G3 games, and she
>> doesn't railroad players into any action. There are times when the
players
>> need to be pointed in a certain direction to further the plot.
>
>By definition, this _is_ railroading. Whether you consider it acceptable
>or not is, of course, a matter of play style.
This is another case of just not understanding how to run a PBEM game, I
think, or at least not doing so according to any PBEM I've seen, run, or
played in. I'd be more than willing to create a lurker list for a turn or
two if it would help clear things up.
That being said -- I don't think there's a GM alive who hasn't had to help
out their players with an extra clue or two when they aren't picking up on
things -- if you're running a *storyline* you have a plot, by definition.
If you're a competent GM, then you can roll with the changes. If you're
not, then you can't. Guiding a plot isn't the same thing as beating your
players over the head with it.
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
www.mactyre.net
Your children will see the stars.
--Robert A. Heinlein
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 00:57:08 -0700
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
Subject: Railroading (Was Re: What a Timeline is truly good for)
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> >
> >> You don't know what you are talking about here. I have the advantage of
> >> looking over Shelley's shoulder when she is running the G3 games, and she
> >> doesn't railroad players into any action. There are times when the
> players
> >> need to be pointed in a certain direction to further the plot.
> >
> >By definition, this _is_ railroading. Whether you consider it acceptable
> >or not is, of course, a matter of play style.
>
> This is another case of just not understanding how to run a PBEM game, I
> think, or at least not doing so according to any PBEM I've seen, run, or
> played in. I'd be more than willing to create a lurker list for a turn or
> two if it would help clear things up.
I'm a player in several PBeM games right now by the way.
Only one of them railroads me to any degree. That's also the one that moves
the slowest. And in that one it's a case of a character conception that got it's
definition mixed between me and the GM (we had diferent ideas about what I was
playing, and together failed to sync our ideas well enough ahead of time).
In none of the games I play do my turns or actions get rewritten for me or
am I told
I have to do something or another. Even in the above plot the railroading stops
at:
"Well before you can do that this interupts you:"
In the best run game I'm in, A WW:Mage game (A system I haven't seen a
rulebook for since
1990, but the GM is so good I could care less), we just go with it. The GM
maintinas the games
flow by having two NPC's in the group. These NPC's mere;y ask questions when we
get stalled,
or answer our questions when we have them and when they could reasonably know
the answer.
I've yet to have a turn rewritten, or to have it happen to any other player.
And there are a few
players in there who'se writing styles definatly clash. But we're given the
freedom to go with it.
If I didn't know from the GM telling me, I'd almost think there wasn't one.
Save for the fact that
the guy who 'plays the werewolf' also is the one who describes the scenes and
writes turns for the
random people we meet.
I'd drop all my champs games in a heartbeat if I had to for that game. And I
don't even like
Storyteller that much. But I like that GM.
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat #gurps and #Fuzionchat in DALnet IRC
herochat is a channel for discusion of the Hero system
Fuzionchat is for dicussion of Fuzion (C:NM, BGC, et all)
Gurps is for discussion of the GURPS RolePlaying Game
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Also, check out the new version of Villians & Vigilantes at
http://illusionmachines.com/personal/jeff/vandv.html
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 10:42:05 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Black Hole
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How would you simulate the effects of a black hole?
What about a character whose Sf/x are
powers are those which simulate
the forces and Sf/x of a black hole. (I know this is cosmicly powerful,
but humor a guy, won't ya?)
-Jason
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Black Hole
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Date: 19 Oct 1997 11:43:46 -0400
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>>>>> "AAM" == ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> writes:
AAM> How would you simulate the effects of a black hole?
If you get within a certain distance, the event horizon, you are drawn into
the point singularity at the heart and cease to exist.
Power: Extradimensional Movement, Area of Effect Radius (big radius),
Usable Against Others, No Normal Defense: having no mass (insubstantial,
such as with some forms of Desolidification). Continuous is an option.
Note that radiant energy *does* have mass, so Desolidification SFX based on
radiant energy forms does not qualify as a defense. In other words, there
really is no defense against a real black hole.
"Here, have a point singularity." <Kachunk!> "Have two, they're small."
<Kachunk!>
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and
\ kept under refrigeration.
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 10:48:24 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Multiple Personality syndrome
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How would you design a character with Multiple Personalities?
We're talking 4 or five seperate, distinct personalities who would
have certains skills (or even powers) unique to each. I'm concearned,
because I don't feel Psychological Limitation defines each well enough.
Some possibilities I've thought of would be 'Accidental Change' or
'Multiform: Only effects mental statistics & personality."
...and if each has it's own Disadvantages.
Crazy for being so lonely,
Jason Sullivan
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:59:33 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Multiple Personality syndrome
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> How would you design a character with Multiple Personalities?
>We're talking 4 or five seperate, distinct personalities who would
>have certains skills (or even powers) unique to each. I'm concearned,
>because I don't feel Psychological Limitation defines each well enough.
>Some possibilities I've thought of would be 'Accidental Change' or
>'Multiform: Only effects mental statistics & personality."
> ...and if each has it's own Disadvantages.
I may be alone on this one, but I'd build the base character, then give him
4 'Followers', which are in fact Artificial Intelligences that can 'take
over' the 'main' personality thanks to Accidental Changes, or maybe even
opposed EGO Rolls (the 'base' personality should probably have the best EGO
roll to keep this under control). The nice thing about AIs is that you only
have to buy DEX, INT, EGO and SPD, plus skills - they aren't that expensive.
50 points each + Disads, x4 Followers, that's 20 points total for a LOT of
variety.
Each AI would have its own Psych.Lims, as well as 'Accidental Change', and
perhaps psychosomatic vulnerabilities/susceptibilities, berserks,
dependancies, etc.
I'd also recommend a Triggered STUN/END Aid when a new personality 'takes
over', mainly to allow the 'main' personality to be knocked out, and one of
the subordinates takes charge.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Guns-ablazin', fu-fightin', spell-chuckin', rubber-monster-stompin' ACTION!"
-John comments on Feng Shui
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:25:30 -0700
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Black Hole
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At 10:42 AM 10/19/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> How would you simulate the effects of a black hole?
> What about a character whose Sf/x are
>
>
>
>
> powers are those which simulate
>the forces and Sf/x of a black hole. (I know this is cosmicly
powerful,
>but humor a guy, won't ya?)
A lot of TK, probably with the limit ("Only to pull things towards
me"), density increase (duh), darkness w/no range (possibly bought
with 'explosion', so that it gets darker the closer you get to him).
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Black Hole
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:55:30 -0700
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From: On Sunday, October 19, 1997 8:08 AM, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> How would you simulate the effects of a black hole?
> What about a character whose Sf/x are
> powers are those which simulate
>the forces and Sf/x of a black hole. (I know this is cosmicly
powerful,
>but humor a guy, won't ya?)
Telekinesis, only to attract people towards self.
EB, to simulate the energy burst released by rotating black holes as
they suck in matter.
A massively destructive NND 0 Range HKA or BODY Drain, to simulate
objects being sucked into the event horizon, never to escape.
Massive defenses, perhaps based upon Desolidification, to show that
anything that hits him is harmlessly sucked in, doing no damage.
Filksinger
X-Sender: scm@mail.aci.net
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 13:12:07 -0700
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net>
Subject: Question about Links Categories
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Greetings, all --
My Champions links page (http://www.mactyre.net/scm/links.html) is becoming
unwieldy -- at last count I had 136 links, and they're listed under a
couple of categories, like PBEM games, organizations, campaign worlds, and
the like. I've had a bunch of requests for me to annotate the dang thing,
but I'm not really sure how I should do it. Should I keep the categories
and maybe include a few comments, should I alphabetize and include a few
comments, should I make value judgements as to the merit of sites, rank
them, what? Obviously there are sites which are much more useful than
others, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable with judging the quality of
others' work.
The links page is the most commonly accessed page, receiving around a
hundred hits a day, and I'd wager that members of this list are among those
using it. So what would you all like to see? Should I leave it alone?
Annotate it? Rank it? If I do choose to annotate it, should I come up with
a key (as I believe George Ruban suggested about a year ago), and use that
to say which sites have backgrounds or character sheets or art in a
shorthand form?
Thanks in advance,
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
www.mactyre.net
Your children will see the stars.
--Robert A. Heinlein
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:57:50 -0200 (EDT)
From: Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria <gevaerd@laranjeiras.lci.ufrj.br>
Subject: Secret ID/OIHID against Chars
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A character was created mostly with only in hero ID disvantages. I
would like some ideas of how these could be used against him, without
isolating him from the rest of the group, making everyone participate in a
single adventure where he would suffer from the OIHID disvantage. I've
being thinking that as noone knows his secret ID, nothing would happen to
him in that ID, as he isn't an important person in it. (he is a priest,
but i guess a more general response might be better)
And if what happened was just near him, he could just walk out,
change to hero id, and would not suffer much from the hero id. The only
think i have thought that does not let that happen was imprisonment, what
is not only very tough, but also kind of nosense with an unimportant
person.
Does anyone have any ideas to offer ?
Thanks.
PS.: Yes, me and the group are kind of newbie in this game.
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Secret ID/OIHID against Chars
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 14:14:33 -0700
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On Sunday, October 19, 1997 1:23 PM, Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria
wrote:
> A character was created mostly with only in hero ID disvantages. I
>would like some ideas of how these could be used against him, without
>isolating him from the rest of the group, making everyone participate
in a
>single adventure where he would suffer from the OIHID disvantage.
<snip>
>The only
>think i have thought that does not let that happen was imprisonment,
what
>is not only very tough, but also kind of nosense with an unimportant
>person.
> Does anyone have any ideas to offer ?
Imprisonment is perfect. He is imprisoned in a bank, along with 12
other hostages. He can't get out of sight, and he has his captors
_and_ the other prisoners to think about when it comes to his Secret
ID.
Another is entrapment of some other sort. Trap him in some disaster
with other people, and make certain he can't get away from them in a
convincing manner.
Another possibility is entrap him by a crowd. Try finding a truly
private place at Disneyland, for example. Cameras saw you go in, and
even in a bathroom stall, other people saw you go in and would see you
come out. If they refuse to leave quickly, you are stuck.
Additionally, he could simply be in the middle of a big crowd, and his
problem could be nothing worse than getting out of a panicked crowd
long enough to change.
Put a bug on him when he is a hero. Let the villains track him down as
the priest. Now, let him convince them he has no powers. He doesn't,
so unlike other people with secret IDs, he cannot be caught out by
tests for powers. However, the tests for powers could be inconvenient
or even fatal if he doesn't change. He cannot change into the hero and
go after them even if he gets away, as they are sure to think they
were right, even if they were wrong. Since they are right, he can't
even stand next to himself to prove he is two people.
This should get you started.
Filksinger
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 97 22:46:18
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Black Hole
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On Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:55:30 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>From: On Sunday, October 19, 1997 8:08 AM, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>
>
>> How would you simulate the effects of a black hole?
>> What about a character whose Sf/x are
>> powers are those which simulate
>>the forces and Sf/x of a black hole. (I know this is cosmicly
>powerful,
>>but humor a guy, won't ya?)
>
>
>Telekinesis, only to attract people towards self.
>EB, to simulate the energy burst released by rotating black holes as
>they suck in matter.
>A massively destructive NND 0 Range HKA or BODY Drain, to simulate
>objects being sucked into the event horizon, never to escape.
>Massive defenses, perhaps based upon Desolidification, to show that
>anything that hits him is harmlessly sucked in, doing no damage.
Don't forget Absorbtion with a long decay time.
X-Sender: wbandsis@mail.westco.net
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:58:44 -0400
From: "C. Badger" <wbandsis@westco.net>
Subject: Re: Question about Links Categories
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At 13:12 10/19/97 -0700, Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote:
>The links page is the most commonly accessed page, receiving around a
>hundred hits a day, and I'd wager that members of this list are among those
>using it. So what would you all like to see? Should I leave it alone?
>Annotate it? Rank it? If I do choose to annotate it, should I come up with
>a key (as I believe George Ruban suggested about a year ago), and use that
>to say which sites have backgrounds or character sheets or art in a
>shorthand form?
Annottate it.
For instance
By genre Pulp, modern, sci-fi(futuristic), heroic, fantasy
By type campaign world, characters, package deals, weapons ect.
Nothing else might let the owner give a short paragraph review of what all
the site has.,....
-----
C. Badger
My Feet hurt and I've forgotten how to dance.
Londo
Babylon 5
X-Sender: wbandsis@mail.westco.net
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:58:46 -0400
From: "C. Badger" <wbandsis@westco.net>
Subject: Re: Secret ID/OIHID against Chars
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 18:57 10/19/97 -0200, Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria wrote:
> And if what happened was just near him, he could just walk out,
>change to hero id, and would not suffer much from the hero id. The only
>think i have thought that does not let that happen was imprisonment, what
>is not only very tough, but also kind of nosense with an unimportant
>person.
> Does anyone have any ideas to offer ?
> Thanks.
Your welcome
Well If a group performed a robbery and in getting away their vehicle broke
down and they entered the church during a service and held everyone hostage.
He would now have the problem of being in his secret id, need to use his
powers but not being able to change without letting others know. The rest
of the players would then be in on trying to rescue the hostages without
getting anyone inside killed.
-----
C. Badger
My Feet hurt and I've forgotten how to dance.
Londo
Babylon 5
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 97 23:00:41
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Secret ID/OIHID against Chars
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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On Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:57:50 -0200 (EDT), Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de
Faria wrote:
> A character was created mostly with only in hero ID disvantages. I
>would like some ideas of how these could be used against him, without
>isolating him from the rest of the group, making everyone participate in a
>single adventure where he would suffer from the OIHID disvantage. I've
>being thinking that as noone knows his secret ID, nothing would happen to
>him in that ID, as he isn't an important person in it. (he is a priest,
>but i guess a more general response might be better)
> And if what happened was just near him, he could just walk out,
>change to hero id, and would not suffer much from the hero id. The only
>think i have thought that does not let that happen was imprisonment, what
>is not only very tough, but also kind of nosense with an unimportant
>person.
> Does anyone have any ideas to offer ?
> Thanks.
>
>PS.: Yes, me and the group are kind of newbie in this game.
>
What a wonderful secret ID! But you seem to be thinking purely along
combat lines; how about some role-playing?
Do the other characters know he's a priest? If not, maybe you could
have one of them seek spiritual guidance. Or perhaps a supervillian (a
Hunted, perchance?) who wants to go straight. Or is it because the
supervillian thinks he's found out the Hero's Secret ID? How does the
priest use knowledge gained in confidence without breaking his
religious vows?
How about a visit from the Pope/Chief Rabbi/whatever? The PC is in the
middle of a crowd of fellow priests in a televised service when
disaster strikes and super-powered terrorists hold the Pope and
congregation to ransom, live on TV!
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:40:35 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Sci-Fi Con
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Well, in a few more weeks, I will be attending Orycon 19 and was
wonsering if there were ano other Convention goers who would be
attending. It is always interesting to actually meet people I have
gotten to "know" online.
OTOH if anybody wants info on the thing, leave a note, and I'll find
the URL of their web page which (mostly) has all the information one
should need....
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:22:55 -0700
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
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Len Carpenter wrote:
>
> > From: Tim R. Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
> >
> > The company is *NOT* founded or owned or funded by any natives
> or
> > native tribes. In fact, it is a sub-corporation of McAfee, the
> virus
> > people. (Whose products I from this time refuse to use.) I didn't
> > explore the whole thing before, but it seems to be a great joke to
> McAfee.
> > Check out the editorial at URL
> >
> > http://indy4.fdl.cc.mn.us/~isk/editorial.html
> >
> > Here is a link to an explination on how the page is quite
> racist
> > (yes, I mean that term now) and offensive to native american
> cultures.
> > There is also some email back and forth from the author to McAfee
> where he
> > trates the whole subject as a farce.
I'd like to point out that Tribal is not a sub-corporation of McAfee
Associates. While John McAfee may have some say at Tribal, he hasn't
been at McAfee Associates for at least two years.
-Mark Lemming
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:34:01 -0400
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Fantasy Hero Cantrip Question
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I run a Fantasy Hero game. All sorcerers in the game have a basic spell
called "Cantrip". Forget the mechanics, they're unimportant to the
question. The intention of the spell is to allow a wide variety of basic
abilities matching the special effects of the particular school of sorcery.
Pyromancers can start fires, dry clothes, make their eyes blaze with
light, etc. All minor, non-combat effects.
A player asked me what that would do for his diviner, a school with
detection and divination abilities. Obviously, it might be able to tell
him where he left the keys to his camel, but what practical usage might
such a spell have for a diviner? Could it allow him to know people's names
when he met them? Could it predict the results of a hand of poker? On
sheer game balance terms, I'd be for the former and against the latter.
What else can you think of?
Scott
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:53:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Question about Links Categories
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On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote:
> Greetings, all --
>
> My Champions links page (http://www.mactyre.net/scm/links.html) is becoming
> unwieldy -- at last count I had 136 links, and they're listed under a
> couple of categories, like PBEM games, organizations, campaign worlds, and
> the like. I've had a bunch of requests for me to annotate the dang thing,
> but I'm not really sure how I should do it. Should I keep the categories
> and maybe include a few comments, should I alphabetize and include a few
> comments, should I make value judgements as to the merit of sites, rank
> them, what? Obviously there are sites which are much more useful than
> others, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable with judging the quality of
> others' work.
Annotation would be nice. You might try marking sites that seem to be
upadted regularly or have a wide variety (or a lot of in depth) material.
Having the site creatires write a few commetns could be nice. Having a
short list of termas aofter each link (like character sheets, gadgets,
worldbooks etc) could be nice as well as general content (4 color, Dark
Champions, fantasy, pulp, SF, anime).
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filksinger@geocities.com>
From: "Filksinger" <filksinger@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:21:30 -0700
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On Sunday, October 19, 1997 7:52 PM, Mark Lemming wrote:
>
>I'd like to point out that Tribal is not a sub-corporation of McAfee
>Associates. While John McAfee may have some say at Tribal, he hasn't
>been at McAfee Associates for at least two years.
>
Thanks for the reminder. John McAfee may be partly responsible for
what is happening at Tribal, but McAfee software shouldn't be blamed
because of that.
OTOH, if they do own interest in Tribal, then handle that as you will.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Sci-Fi Con
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:24:27 -0700
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On Sunday, October 19, 1997 6:01 PM, Captain Spith
>Well, in a few more weeks, I will be attending Orycon 19 and was
>wonsering if there were ano other Convention goers who would be
>attending. It is always interesting to actually meet people I have
>gotten to "know" online.
I live in Seattle, and would like to make it to Orycon, but probably
won't. I haven't for years, because of a con just north of Seattle at
the end of October every year, but they just quit, so maybe I can make
it.
OTOH, my finances are shot. I doubt it, but I'll let you know.
> OTOH if anybody wants info on the thing, leave a note, and I'll
find
>the URL of their web page which (mostly) has all the information one
>should need....
>
Sounds good. I undoubtedly have it only a few clicks away from one of
my bookmarks, but that will be easier.
Filksinger
From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 00:11:36 -0400 (EDT)
cc: hero-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Multiple Personality syndrome
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In a message dated 97-10-19 10:52:35 EDT, you write:
<< How would you design a character with Multiple Personalities?
We're talking 4 or five seperate, distinct personalities who would
have certains skills (or even powers) unique to each. I'm concearned,
because I don't feel Psychological Limitation defines each well enough.
Some possibilities I've thought of would be 'Accidental Change' or
'Multiform: Only effects mental statistics & personality."
...and if each has it's own Disadvantages.
Crazy for being so lonely,
Jason Sullivan
>>
I have an NPC called Discordia who has several personalities, some super,
some not, all bought as Multiforms: No Conscious Control. In her case, some
of the personalities come with powers that change her outward appearance.
The NCC allows for the control to be governed by the GM based on the
situations at hand instead of a dice roll.
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:32:56 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Nonstandard Deviations
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 11:43 PM 10/13/97 -0500, Vox Ludator! wrote:
> >If you read the section on Everyman skills, they seem to fall into two
> >groups: "shadow" skills that represent 'default use' skills (like Deduction
> >or Climbing), and 'freebie' abilities (the AK, PS, and Language) which seem
> >to be "real" points in the same sense as the 10s-in=all-CHAR. Therefore,
> >it's possible this wasn't a deviation, but another of those hidden
> >feature-not-a-bug bits in the HERO rules.
>
> That would be my assumption, except that this is the only book in which
> I've noticed this being done.
I am confused as to why this is even an issue. HSR p. 19, "Everyman
Skills" reads in part:
All characters start with some ability in a few Skills, which
reflects the fact that everybody knows how to do these things
to some extent. * * * These Skills may be purchased and
improved just like any other Skills. In this case the full
cost must be paid - the Everyman familiarity does not reduce
the cost.
All characters begin with 4 Character Points in their native
language; they will be literate if most members of the society
are. Characters also have 1 Character Point (that is,
Familiarity) in Home Area Knowledge, and 1 Character Point
in an appropriate Professional Skill. These should be noted
on the Character Sheet, since they can be improved like normal
Skills. These Skills are given free, so the cost shouldn't be
added in to the character's cost total.
This seems to be explicit and unequivocal: if you want 5 points
(scholarly knowledge, or imitate dialects, or literacy if nonstandard) in
your native language, it costs one point. If you want AK: Home or
PS: Primary Profession at 11-, it will cost one point, not two.
Unfortunately, *every* sample character on pp. 130-134 violates this
rule. Go figure.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:27:25 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Sci-Fi Con
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Filksinger wrote:
<....>
> > OTOH if anybody wants info on the thing, leave a note, and I'll
> find
> >the URL of their web page which (mostly) has all the information one
> >should need....
> >
> Sounds good. I undoubtedly have it only a few clicks away from one of
> my bookmarks, but that will be easier.
The address of the Orycon 19 Home Page is:
http://www.teleport.com/~osfci/orycon19/index.html
For those interested, my wife is running the Art Show and has her own
page for that (and her own personal stuff) @
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5486/artshow.html
Memberships are now up to $45, as they will be at the door. I look
forward to potentially seeing anybody who decides to/is able to go. I
will be spending a good amount of time helping out at the Art Show,
hanging with the DJ at the dance(s), and maybe even gaming. My Badge
name will be, of course:
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
X-Sender: nezmaster@mail.ntr.net
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 02:50:26 -0400
champ-l@omg.org
From: The Nez Master <nezmaster@ntr.net>
Subject: Re: Secret ID/OIHID against Chars
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At 06:57 PM 10/19/97 -0200, Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria wrote:
> A character was created mostly with only in hero ID disvantages. I
>would like some ideas of how these could be used against him, without
>isolating him from the rest of the group, making everyone participate in a
>single adventure where he would suffer from the OIHID disvantage. I've
>being thinking that as noone knows his secret ID, nothing would happen to
>him in that ID, as he isn't an important person in it.
Ask the player, hey you've got this limitation here. In what game ways do
you think it's limiting. Maybe the player will have some ideas. If neither
of you get any, it's not a limitation, 0 points.
(he is a priest,
>but i guess a more general response might be better)
> And if what happened was just near him, he could just walk out,
>change to hero id, and would not suffer much from the hero id.
Ick. Dozens of reasons this can't happen. Other people watching, police
lines keeping crowds under control, being some part of the focus of
attention, beingin a swarmed crowd (ever try to leave a crowded event
quickly, especially if panic is in the air), or just plain ol needing to be
there.
> The only
>think i have thought that does not let that happen was imprisonment, what
>is not only very tough, but also kind of nosense with an unimportant
>person.
1> Just as a mood effect, stress time. Make him play out the angst of not
having time to devote to people, because he is living two lives. Work not
getting done, just remind him while he's fighting Dr Destroyer that he has
an appointment in 30 minutes with some one for an interview (or in his
case, a counseling, a membership drive, an appearance, a wedding,)
2> Put in situations when he is busy elsewhere when he gets a phone call
from the group. He will have to face making himself look bad in front of
some paritionaers by skipping out on something, or letting Mechanon destroy
humanity. You think villians never attack on Sunday morning.
3> He see's people he personally knows involved in something. He's with a
freind in his id, when he see's some villian attack. The friend or
aquaintence is of course noblein heart, and will not let his preist freind
be endagnered, no way is he getting out of sight.
4>During a time when lots of people are focused on him, soemthing intense
happens. The multitudes look to their freind and leader for focus and
leadership. "Help us decide what to do" would be difficult to meet with
running away changing ids.
Some of these may feel like your taking the pc out of part of the aciton.
You are, that's the nature of the thing. Of course, most of these are plain
ol secret id stuff, but that will bring in the OHID stuff by it's very
nature. (especially for defenses and movement powers.)
Now, ohid with public id is tougher, and some would argue not much of a
limitation. I would say if he also had instant change, it's not really a
limitaiotn at all. Without instant change, it can be really bad. Since
everyone knows who he did (or with no id, can find out), he's a target, and
soonthe villians will figure out 'hit him hard and fast, and he can't change.
> Does anyone have any ideas to offer ?
> Thanks.
>
>PS.: Yes, me and the group are kind of newbie in this game.
>
>
-------------------------Nez Master--------------------
Second founder of the backwards philosophy
http://www.ntr.net/~nezmaster
Nothing is certain
_______________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 97 10:03:42 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Steve McGinness)
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero Cantrip Question
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At 10:34 PM 19/10/97 -0400, Scott Nolan wrote:
>A player asked me what that would do for his diviner, a school with
>detection and divination abilities. Obviously, it might be able to tell
>him where he left the keys to his camel, but what practical usage might
>such a spell have for a diviner? Could it allow him to know people's names
>when he met them? Could it predict the results of a hand of poker? On
>sheer game balance terms, I'd be for the former and against the latter.
>
>What else can you think of?
>
>Scott
It depends, there are all kinds of things that would be useful, but it's
difficult to see what would be game imbalancing. I'm just going to give my
head free rein and you can sort them out.
....."Oh! and I think I might just need this!"
an ability to have something to hand when required
....."The chemists shop should be just round the corner"
an ability to know where his way around even unfamiliar towns
....."I _knew_ you were going to say that!"
a constant feeling of deja vu!
......"I wouldn't do that if I were you"
_knows_ the local by-laws, aware of laws commonly known
......."actually it's pronounced "Mill-guy" not Milngavie!"
knows how the locals say something rather than the obvious way
......."Come in!!" knock knock
aware of someone about to enter his domicile
Stephen
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:44:29 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Nonstandard Deviations
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Robert A. West wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> At 11:43 PM 10/13/97 -0500, Vox Ludator! wrote:
>> >If you read the section on Everyman skills, they seem to fall into two
>> >groups: "shadow" skills that represent 'default use' skills (like Deduction
>> >or Climbing), and 'freebie' abilities (the AK, PS, and Language) which seem
>> >to be "real" points in the same sense as the 10s-in=all-CHAR. Therefore,
>> >it's possible this wasn't a deviation, but another of those hidden
>> >feature-not-a-bug bits in the HERO rules.
>>
>> That would be my assumption, except that this is the only book in which
>> I've noticed this being done.
>
>I am confused as to why this is even an issue. HSR p. 19, "Everyman
>Skills" reads in part:
>
> All characters start with some ability in a few Skills, which
> reflects the fact that everybody knows how to do these things
> to some extent. * * * These Skills may be purchased and
> improved just like any other Skills. In this case the full
> cost must be paid - the Everyman familiarity does not reduce
> the cost.
>
> All characters begin with 4 Character Points in their native
> language; they will be literate if most members of the society
> are. Characters also have 1 Character Point (that is,
> Familiarity) in Home Area Knowledge, and 1 Character Point
> in an appropriate Professional Skill. These should be noted
> on the Character Sheet, since they can be improved like normal
> Skills. These Skills are given free, so the cost shouldn't be
> added in to the character's cost total.
>
>This seems to be explicit and unequivocal: if you want 5 points
>(scholarly knowledge, or imitate dialects, or literacy if nonstandard) in
>your native language, it costs one point. If you want AK: Home or
>PS: Primary Profession at 11-, it will cost one point, not two.
>Unfortunately, *every* sample character on pp. 130-134 violates this
>rule. Go figure.
>
I guess you didn't look at the end of the first paragraph that you quoted.
It clearly states that "the Everyman familiarity doesn't reduce the cost."
Yes, it could be argued that the second paragraph seems like it may
contradict this, and so do the characters in Champions of the North (or at
least that's what someone said). *This* is why the discussion is here.
I personally don't allow the Everyman skills to reduce the costs of buying
them up, and I think I'm correct in this. Even if I'm not, it winds up
being "I'm correct IMC." But I have let characters (mostly NPCs, whom some
argue don't necessarily need to be *point* balanced) to get a PS: A at 11-
for 2 points, and PS: B at 8- for 0 points (reflecting the everyman skills).
And that's probaby a work-around to the rules, too.
- Jerry
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero Cantrip Question
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 04:27:27 -0700
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Sunday, October 19, 1997 9:01 PM, Scott Nolan wrote:
>I run a Fantasy Hero game. All sorcerers in the game have a basic
spell
>called "Cantrip". Forget the mechanics, they're unimportant to the
>question. The intention of the spell is to allow a wide variety of
basic
>abilities matching the special effects of the particular school of
sorcery.
> Pyromancers can start fires, dry clothes, make their eyes blaze with
>light, etc. All minor, non-combat effects.
>
>A player asked me what that would do for his diviner, a school with
>detection and divination abilities. Obviously, it might be able to
tell
>him where he left the keys to his camel, but what practical usage
might
>such a spell have for a diviner? Could it allow him to know people's
names
>when he met them? Could it predict the results of a hand of poker?
On
>sheer game balance terms, I'd be for the former and against the
latter.
>
>What else can you think of?
>
Some people might have a Fate written upon them so boldly that
diviners can see it automatically. ("Aaaiiieee!!! I see your Doom
written upon your face! Since before Time began, your fate has been
decided!") You might know more than a person's name, such as what they
wish to do or what happened to them earlier today. Sometimes they
might get no more than, "That one's purpose is so strong that I know
not what it is." This vagueness will help preserve game balance. Other
possibilities might be to know minor things in general, without a
reason for knowing them. ("We're going to freeze out here!" "No, my
friend. There is a fire and warmth waiting for us just over this
hill.") In this case, Danger Sense might be desirable as a adjunct to
the cantrip. ("How was I to know that the fire and warmth were
cannibals?")
Filksinger
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:47:04 -0400
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: Fantasy Hero Cantrip Question
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> A player asked me what that would do for his diviner, a school with
> detection and divination abilities. Obviously, it might be able to tell
> him where he left the keys to his camel, but what practical usage might
> such a spell have for a diviner? Could it allow him to know people's names
> when he met them? Could it predict the results of a hand of poker? On
> sheer game balance terms, I'd be for the former and against the latter.
Your calls sound good; other ideas:
See around corners without poking your head around;
Low-resolution, nonspecific detect magic (only works on STRONG magic, vague as
to type and exact location);
Which way the guard is going to turn;
One card in a hand of poker (maybe :-), and;
Which other characters are PCs. :-)
Geoff Speare
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:51:00 -0400
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: Black Hole
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> How would you simulate the effects of a black hole?
Flight, Usable Against Others, AOE. (SFX is gravity; anything which stops
gravity stops the UAO.)
Big Mucking Killing Attack for the EVent Horizon, plus Flash, etc.
Extra dimensional travel. :-)
For a character, I'd probably replace the Flight with TK only because the
Flight gets abusive.
I actually had a brick with AOE TK, only to draw people into him, called
Undertow. Along with his weather-power gal-friend Azimuth they formed Horizon
(where the sky and sea meet), a two-person NPC hero team.
Geoff Speare
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero Cantrip Question
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:17:05 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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>
> >All sorcerers in the game have a basic spell
> >question. The intention of the spell is to allow a wide variety of
> >abilities matching the special effects of the particular school of
> >
> >A player asked me what that would do for his diviner, a school with
> >detection and divination abilities. Obviously, it might be able to
> tell
> >him where he left the keys to his camel, but what practical usage
> might
> >such a spell have for a diviner? Could it allow him to know people's
> >
> >What else can you think of?
>
> Some people might have a Fate written upon them so boldly that
> diviners can see it automatically. ("Aaaiiieee!!! I see your Doom
> written upon your face! Since before Time began, your fate has been
> decided!") You might know more than a person's name, such as what they
> reason for knowing them. ("We're going to freeze out here!" "No, my
> friend. There is a fire and warmth waiting for us just over this
> hill.") In this case, Danger Sense might be desirable as a adjunct to
> the cantrip. ("How was I to know that the fire and warmth were
> cannibals?")
>
My mother reads Tarot and has for some years. She claims she can get
a general feel for people now pretty much right as they come her, before the
cards are even dealt (it's not her occupation btw, she's proffessionally a
college teacher).
So seeing the fate thing is not a bad idea. Other things would be
like the deja vu concept, or getting vague feelings and impressions about
everything you encounter.
The fire and warmth over the next hill might be too detailed. But
saying "I feel it would benifit us to continue up ahead" might be good.
Or even "The road ahead has rewards and can help with our current delima, but
I send it involve some diffulculty to achieve. Let me cast some magics to
fully understand this."
A character who'se day is going to be filled with the promise of
adventure might awake feeling "Something grand will happen today, be
prepared for great change." But not know why or how until a full divination
is cast.
Essentially, just give them automatic divinations of a very vague
and minor nature.
Where a true spell might say the villiage is about to be visited
by Dwarven Traders seeking help in their quest; the auto-divin would just say
"somone is coming bearing tidings of adventure".
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Fw: Multiple Personality syndrome
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 18:27:58 +0100
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-----Original Message-----
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: 19 October 1997 04:53
Subject: Multiple Personality syndrome
> How would you design a character with Multiple Personalities?
>We're talking 4 or five seperate, distinct personalities who would
>have certains skills (or even powers) unique to each. I'm concearned,
>because I don't feel Psychological Limitation defines each well enough.
>Some possibilities I've thought of would be 'Accidental Change' or
>'Multiform: Only effects mental statistics & personality."
> ...and if each has it's own Disadvantages.
> Crazy for being so lonely,
> Jason Sullivan
If you can't use the skills of one personality when another is dominant,
then you could set them up as ultra slots in a multipower.
If the player has difficulty in switching from one personality to another,
then apply an activation or skill roll to the changing of the multipower
slots.
If the player has no control at all then this is worth a heavier
disadvantage and then an accidental change on top of this.
Now my question: How about a character who has traumatic flashbacks? I'm
torn between enraged/berserk and physical limitation (the flashbacks are so
vivid that he is incapacitated whilst he is undergoing them)?
X-Sender: dalger@thyme.cisco.com
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:02:57 -0700
From: Douglas Alger <dalger@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Black Hole
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>>> How would you simulate the effects of a black hole?
>>> What about a character whose Sf/x are
>>> powers are those which simulate
>>>the forces and Sf/x of a black hole.
I have a character with the powers of a dwarf star. He has Shrinking,
Density and considerable knockback resistance, in addition to TK to pull
people toward him. Together with Teleport (he can shrink down to
microscopically small and travel along an electron, then grow again), he is
obscenely effective. Nothing like a brick who is difficult to see and hit,
then teleports away when you finally can see him.
He absolutely spattered villains the first time I played him. Although none
of his individual powers were above the average levels found in our
campaign, I had to cut everything back to keep him from giving GMs too hard
a time.
- Doug
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:01:15 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero Cantrip Question
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Scott Nolan wrote:
>
> I run a Fantasy Hero game. All sorcerers in the game have a basic spell
> called "Cantrip". Forget the mechanics, they're unimportant to the
> question. The intention of the spell is to allow a wide variety of basic
> abilities matching the special effects of the particular school of sorcery.
> Pyromancers can start fires, dry clothes, make their eyes blaze with
> light, etc. All minor, non-combat effects.
>
> A player asked me what that would do for his diviner, a school with
> detection and divination abilities. Obviously, it might be able to tell
> him where he left the keys to his camel, but what practical usage might
> such a spell have for a diviner? Could it allow him to know people's names
> when he met them? Could it predict the results of a hand of poker? On
> sheer game balance terms, I'd be for the former and against the latter.
>
> What else can you think of?
>
> Scott
-- Predict what the weather is going to be for the next day. Always
knows what pack contains the salt. Find the spot for the bed roll which
doesnt have rocks, ants, etc around it. Perhaps as far as having a short
term (several seconds) view the path to avoid misplacing his feet or
disturbing minor pests.
It depends on just how much power you wish to invest in the cantrip
and what other "spells" are available to the players.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 21 Oct 97 03:41:02 GMT
Subject: Re: Non-Stereotypical Mi
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h > > What sort of Native American heroes would be considered
h > > non-stereotypical and non-offensive? Most of the Marvel ones had
h > some sort
h > > of "Indian" motif. I somewhat imagined that some would do that.
h > I'd like
h > > to interject some minority Supers into my games (probably as NPCs)
h > but would
h > > like them to be non-stereotypes. Yes, some will probably be
h > stereotypical,
h > > but I want some to be surprising, and I would like them all to have
h > depth.
h > > A little help (and some opinions) would be greatly appreciated.
Avoiding stereotypes isn't that hard. One thing to remember is that
just because someone of Native American decent gets superpowers, doesn't
mean he's automatically going to have a 'theme' based on his ancestral
culture. Base his theme on his powers or his personal interest, base
his psychlims on personal experiences, make the character an individual,
don't make race the central theme... First off, don't think "I need to
have a Native American (or Black or whatever) character in this game
to prove I'm not a racist." If you start off on that foot you'll just
be engaging in pointless tokenism.
When I build characters I usually start with an image, so it's easy
for me to decide on the race and sex of the character early on, the
name and powers then flow naturally. Alot of characters can also
start with a name or a power set. How do character ideas 'come to
you'?
Making a character non-offensive is a lot harder. If you make a
stereotyped character some people will jump on you for being
insensitive. If, as I suggest above, you minimize the impact of
race or culture, you might also be attacked for undervaluing that
culture. And, unless you're actually Native American or whatever,
if you try to create a sensitive well researched, cultural super,
you may well face upset people who think you're 'stealing' from
thier culture.
Finally, stereotypes are usefull. Every character can't be fully
developed and deep. Some just need to be quickly described and
understood. No one complains when yet another greedy business
tycoon, racist neo-nazi, or bigoted redneck is cast as a villain -
and those are pretty pervasive stereotypes. Some character types
almost *have* to be stereotypes - the super-patriot, for instance
(when the guy in the red-white-&-blue spandex shows up you just
*know* how he's going to act). And aren't some stereotypes just
plain positive: super-patriot, brave, or knight in armor - don't
they all just scream hero?
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 23:33:40 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: FutureGuy
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FutureGuy is a superhero from the future who uses his nifty
gadgets to fight crime in the past. All of his gear is powered by
special Amirium-369 Power Cells (that are securely mounted on his
belt).
The A-369 PC belt is an END Reserve of 200, with a REC of 50.
The belt is shielded, and contains the dangerous, radioactive element
A-369. Both the belt and shielding are very resistant to damage.
The Amirium element has a side effect of being non-teleportable
due to it's unusual properties.
The unit functions well, in most cases. If the outer
core is breeched, however, the battery leaks it's harmful
stored radiation. This can be mended, however, by FutureGuy...
but not usually 'on the fly.' Amirium radiation, in it's
uncondensed form, has properties akin to that of other
hard radiation types.
Here's my query:
I've figured the END cost for the belt with the following
Adv./Lim.:
*END 200: BC = 20
Hardened AC = 25
IIF (Mobile, Unbreakable, Universal)
RC = 20
[I'm new at this... so if this is wrong, correct me please]
Now, here's my boggle. THe REC of 50 also has the advantage of
Hardened, but, when the battery is breached, the REC gets spotty, sometimes
replenishing the END, getting weaker and weaker with increased damage.
In addition, when it is struck, there is a chance of a radiation leak
with affects the character and the area.
When the REC no longer functions, and all of the END is wasted,
the radiation levels 'die down' doing more subtle damage to the character
(i.e. long term effects like cancer and radiation poisoning).
This is a IIF (Moble, Universal) but the shielding is not
Unbreakable. I was thinking of purchasing Ablative for REC only
to simulate the steady leak, and Side Effect for REC only to represent
the Intense Radiation of the leak (AC of power).
According to game mechanics, how much would the Real Cost be?
Also, the 'Side Effect' would switch from 'Intense Radiation'
to 'Passive Radiation.' Does this effect the Lim 'Side Effect' in any
way? The 'Intense Radiation' should have the following properties:
Continuous (stays around from phase to phase), Explosion (the 'leak'
damages thinsg surroudig it, but range lessens the intensity),
Invisible Power Effects (you take damage, but don't really feel it
or see it glowing), Indirect (goes through barriers like normal
walls), NND (defense is lead/radiation shielding or LS: Radiation).
The radiation would do No Knockback.
First, are my Adv. for the radiation valid or bunk? Can you have
a ranged Special Effect (like an RKA)? What about the Lim. (No KB),
the Side Effect is calculated on Active Points, but the Lim. doesn't
factor into that (or does it?). How often would the character take
damage? When would it stop? Does the Side Effect feed off the END
Reserve as far as the AC goes or is it 0 END?
About the 'secondary' effect of 'Passive Radiation' Would
it go into effect when the REC doesn't function (gone) or when the
END is depleated (through use or 'leakage' [assuming the SE would
feed off the END Reserve])? What would you make the Passive Radiation
SE (Transformation, a Drain, or Phys. Lim.: Radiation Poisioning/Cancer).
Could you even have a 'changing' m
Side Effect?
I have a feeling this is going to be throughly thrashed and
flamed... please do. :) I'm getting used to the system...
-Jason Sullivan
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 21 Oct 97 05:17:04 GMT
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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h > >characters spend Exp. A multi form is build on the same point
h > >base as the base form. So, if you have a 100 + 150 disads +15 exp
h > >base form, then each of the other forms has the same number of base
h > >points, and the same number of exp (not all of which may be spent)
h > >and a max of 150 in disads. In your example the breakdown would
h > >be:
h > >
h > >Multo = 100 +150 +15 = 265 (50 pts in Multiform)
h > >Mult1 = 100 + 85 +15 = 200
h > >Mult2 = 100 + 0 + 0 = 100 (and has 15 unspent exp)
h >
h > I'll say there's a misunderstanding -- what you're describing here
h > is
h > the Third Edition version of Multiform!
Huh? How so? I will admit that I have version-itis pretty bad,
but what exactly is 3rd Ed about the above?
h > Not that the description you were responding to was much better.
h > In
h > fact, I see nothing in the BBB that says anything about Multiforms
h > earning
h > experience. The only way I can see to increase the point value of a
h > Multiform is to put more points into it, at the usual rate of 1 point
h > spent
h > per 5 points improved. (I see the same rule for Followers and most
h > other
h > "secondary entities.")
Multiforms and Duplicates are not secondary entities. The character
earns exp regardless of which form he's in. The Multiform power defines
the maximum points you can spend on each form, but, all those points
still have to come from somewhere - base points, disadvantages, or
experience.
h >
h > >The character has only earned 15 exp, there is *no way* his
h > >multiforms could have 50 exp! Yes, this does mean adding
h > >disads after the start of the game, which is a little odd.
h > >More often, a Multiform character would keep his disads the
h > >same, and only spend enough exp on multiform to allow each
h > >form to spend the exp he's earned.
h >
h > I'm not quite sure how most of this matches up (or not) with what I
h > said
h > in the above paragraph. Obviously, we disagree on whether Multiforms
h > can
h > have experience points at all, but I *think* the principle of your
h > last
h > sentence is fundamentally correct.
h > However, a Multiform can have more points than the base character
h > if the
h > base character spends 1:1 point for the extras.
h >
You're thinking of Followers. With Multiform, the highest point form is
automatically the 'base' form. If one of the multiforms was bought up
higher than the original, the cost of the Multiform power would have
to be completely recalculated with the highest-point form as the 'base.'
h > >it at 0 pts... Multiform cost: 30pts for a 0 base pt multiform
h > +5/1pt,
h > >15pts +10/1 for each additional form. Forms cannot have more base
h > points
h > >than the base forms base pts + exp, and cannot have more disads than
h > >the normal champaign limit.
h >
h > I like this plan, at least provisionally. I've never liked the
h > rule of
h > paying for points in "secondary entities" that are covered by
h > Disadvantages. It's like paying for them twice, or taking
h > Disadvantages on
h > a character without *really* getting points for them.
h > ---
___
* OFFLINE 1.58 * I am not a Rules Lawyer...I'm a Rules Activist.
X-Sender: champion@mailhost.cyberhighway.net
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:28:40 -0700
From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Re: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
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<x-html><html>
At 02:22 AM 10/20/97 +0000, Mark Lemming wrote:<p>
>> > Check out the editorial at URL<br>
>> ><br>
>> > <a
href="http://indy4.fdl.cc.mn.us/~isk/editorial.html">http://indy4.fdl.cc.mn.us/~isk/editorial.html</a><br>
>> ><p>
>From that page:<p>
<blockquote type=cite>In general how Powwow works (for Windows PC's only)
is that a database of information on each registered user is kept by
Tribal Voice, Inc. on its network. The Powwow software is
memory-resident, and opens each computer (or networks) it runs on to
contact and chatting, tripping, tribalizing, etc., from any other user.
It may or may not plant a piece of itself in hidden ways in user systems
(i.e. so you couldn't actually get rid of it or actually "turn it
off". That would be rather hard to determine, and ought to be
grounds for uneasiness about it. Tribal Voice offers a Yellow Page
service for businesses that use it.<br>
</blockquote><br>This is an paragraph that touts her ignorance to anyone
who has dared "desecrate" their computer by installing the
software. It doesn't work this way. If she can be this wrong about the
simple mechanics of the program that I challenge the validity of the rest
of her slanted comments.<p>
This person has clearly formed a strong, one-sided opinion, and has
clearly slanted her entire editorial around it. But I will assume that
any other clear-minded individual might be able to deduce this on their
own. To blindly accept what this person says without looking at the
program or website themselves is making an ignorant mistake as well.<p>
I happen to like PW in a lot of ways. But I formed this opinion through
USING the program, not by poking at it with a virtual
"Anti-Racist" stick. I don't want to argue with anyone about
this -- if you like the program, and aren't offended by the use of the
Native American terms, whether actually made by Native Americans or not,
then have fun. If you are offended by the use of these terms unless used
solely by TRUE (verifiable) Native Americans, or you just don't like the
software, or are paranoid about some aspect of that software burying
itself deep in your system to contact "big brother" (or maybe I
should use some Native American equivalent to Big Brother to be more
genre-oriented) and tell them secrets about you and your computer...well,
then don't use PW. But it that's that case, you must be running Windows
95 because we all know Bill Gates is the Anti-Christ....<p>
Jim<p>
<BR>
<font face="Courier New,
Courier">_________________________________________________________________<br>
Jim Dickinson -=- Portland. OR USA -=-
champion@cyberhighway.net<br>
WWW Role-Playing Resource:<br>
Castle Game
Knight:
http://www.cyberhighway.net/~jd/cgk<br>
Join the Circle of HEROs:
http://www.cyberhighway.net/~jd/coh<br>
-----------------------------------------------------------------</font></html>
</x-html>X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 21 Oct 97 05:33:06 GMT
Subject: Unbalanced Mental Power
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h >
h > If someone gets a telepathy, and very good mind scan and ego
h > attack
h > for example. He can make a telepathy link with someone of his team,
h > and
h > then away from the danger of the battle, and receiving information
h > about
h > the battle from his partner he could just mind scan and ego attack any
h > opponent his partner could detect, being almost completely safe. And
h > he
h > could even get these powers by an Elemental Control.
h > Is this right ? What do you think about this ?
h >
h > []s.
It's mechanicall correct (though there might be some question as
to what a telepathic link really lets you do - you might have
to Mind Scan the entire area, rather than getting location info
from the link) but I don't think much of the idea for a super
hero game.
One option that might make the idea more acceptable: If the
character has mind link with one, specific other character
in the group, instead of general Telepath, and could only
project thier other powers to that characters general area
while that character is conscious to act as his eyes and
ears, then it would be OK from a game balance standpoint.
(the character can't be attacked, but if his forward
observer is taken down, he's not a problem anymore).
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 21 Oct 97 05:53:08 GMT
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Cha
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h > Given that the described use of Instant Change was specifically to
h > overcome
h > any disadvantages to Focus or OHID, I believe that it did need being
h > said.
h > The character in question clearly was *NOT* limited by either Focus or
h > OHID. He was able to retrieve his weapons with no effort; likewise he
h > was
h > able to switch between normal and heroic identities without
h > restriction.
h >
h > So, no bonus.
I think that in this case, it was the way it was run that was in
error. The evil knight should have Instant changed back into
normal (which presumably loses him some SPD and Defenses), lost
the rest of his phase due to the way changing SPD works, gotten
thoughly trashed (I beleive he was about to be hit by his own
sword) if not killed, and if he miraculously survived, changed
back and still not had his weapons (they were OAFs, they were
taken away, live with it). It's not that the combination of
Focus, OIHID, and Instant Change is intrinsicly broken, it just
has to be run correctly. Switching between normal and hero ID
multiple times with Instant Change is no more reasonable than
switching multipower slots more than once in a phase.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 21 Oct 97 07:13:10 GMT
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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h > > What I was talking about was that, in most cases, a "secondary
h > entity"
h > > based on 75 points with 75 points of Disadvantages costs the main
h > character
h > > just as much as one based on 100 points with 50 points of
h > Disadvantages,
h > > or one based on 150 points with no Disadvantages. This isn't true
h > of
h > > Followers (which use Base Points), but it is true of Duplicates and
h > > Multiforms. (I'm not clear on Summon for this one.)
Sorta... All duplicates and multiforms are built on the same base points
as the main character. So a 100 base point super hero would always get
a 100 + 50 point character when he pays for 150, never 75+ 75 (thoug it
would certainly be OK to give him one), and certainly never 150 pts
flat out. Experience can be thought of as adding to base points, so
if the character were to earn 50 exp, that 150 pt duplicate or multiform
could be 150 pts w/no disads.
h > This shouldn't make any difference, though, since most games will
h > have all players on the same scale (all 100+150 or all 75+75, etc.),
h > thus there would be no character inequities, and as for the
h > follower(s);
h > the comparative savings reflects the fact that a follower is
h > GM-CONTROLLED, based on the player's original conception; Dupes and
h > Multis are directly controlled by the player, thus more expensive to
h > reflect more control.
h >
h > -Capt. Spith
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 00:18:40 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Nonstandard Deviations: WARNING! Long, Pedagogical.
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Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>
> >
> I guess you didn't look at the end of the first paragraph that you quoted.
> It clearly states that "the Everyman familiarity doesn't reduce the cost."
Forgive me if the following sounds like a review of Reading Comprehension
101, but I think that you are being obtuse.
First, you omitted the beginning of the sentence, "In this case..."
Clearly, there is a contrast being made, but a contrast to what? To
normal skills? Unlikely, since the full cost must be paid for normal
skills as well, so there is no need to say anything, and certainly
nothing unique to this case. What then? Obviously the contrast is to
some other class to be named in the remainder of the passage.
Let's look at the preceding sentence. Emphasis mine.
These Skills may be *purchased and* improved just like any
other Skills.
For now, let's just leave that alone. We'll come back to it after we
consider the second paragraph carefully. The first two sentences read:
All characters begin with 4 character points in their native
language; they will be literate if the most members of the
society are. Characters also have 1 Character Point
(Familiarity) in Home Area Knowledge, and 1 Character Point
in an appropriate Professional Skill.
Ignoring the odd locution, "The most members of the society," note how
this contrasts to the corresponding sentence in the first paragraph:
All characters have Familiarity (an 8- roll) with these Skills.
In the first paragraph, there is a reference to Familiarity as such. In
the second paragraph, the primary reference is to Character Points, and
familiarity is mentioned only parenthetically and therefore
nonrestrictively. Why the distinction? Perhaps these three Skills are
to be treated differently in some way, and that way relates to a
character point.
Continuing with the next sentence:
These should be noted on the Character Sheet, since they can
be improved like normal Skills.
Interesting! The word "these" refers only to those skills mentioned in
the second paragraph. If it were intended to include the skills in the
first paragraph, there would have been a paragraph break at this point.
Moreover, "these" should refer, in careful writing, to the most recent
collection: in this case the trio of LS, AK, PS. If it were intended to
include all Everyman Skills, then the sentence should read, "All these
Skills..."
Now, why is the author so concerned that these skills be noted on the
character sheet, and indifferent whether the other Everyman Skills are so
noted? Well, we have not yet looked at the adverbial clause. Apparently
the author is concerned that we know the reason -- these skills should be
noted because they can be improved, "Like normal Skills."
How are normal skills improved? One just buys them up with normal
character points. What about the other Everyman skills? It says in the
first paragraph that they, "May be *purchased and* improved just like any
other Skills." [emphasis mine again] Hmmm... It seems that the first
group of skills must be purchased before they can be improved, yet the
second may be simply improved. This looks like a contrast, and it seems
to be that the second group has been, in some sense, already purchased.
Perhaps that is why the author went out of his way to mention "Character
Points" in connection with the second set of skills.
Now, on to the last sentence:
These Skills are given free, so the cost shouldn't be addd in
to the character's cost total.
What does this mean? Perhaps these skills cost nothing, no matter how
far up they are bought? Probably not, since that would be a very silly
rule. Are all Everyman skills, of both types, meant? Again, almost
certainly not, since the first paragraph has already made it abundantly
clear that there is no cost associated with those skills. Besides, when
paragraphs correspond to cases that are distinct in some way, any
statements that can be seen as distinct *are* distinct.
This leaves the only reasonable conclusion, that the second set of skills
are noted as being free, precisely to avoid any confusion over the fact
that they were spoken of initially in terms of Character Points, and the
fact that those character points count, even if the skill is bought up.
If, by any chance, this *isn't* what the authors meant, they certainly
did an excellent job of sowing confusion.
> I personally don't allow the Everyman skills to reduce the costs of buying
> them up, and I think I'm correct in this.
If my character's native language is english, and I want to be able to
imitate accents, are you *actually* going to charge me *five* character
points for this??? I hope not. As for PS: vocation and AK: Home, I see
no reason not to grant what the rules plainly say, despite the fact that
most examples do not conform to it.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 21 Oct 97 07:22:12 GMT
Subject: Multiple Personality syn
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h > How would you design a character with Multiple Personalities?
h > We're talking 4 or five seperate, distinct personalities who would
h > have certains skills (or even powers) unique to each. I'm concearned,
h > because I don't feel Psychological Limitation defines each well
h > enough.
h > Some possibilities I've thought of would be 'Accidental Change' or
h > 'Multiform: Only effects mental statistics & personality."
h > ...and if each has it's own Disadvantages.
h > Crazy for being so lonely,
h > Jason Sullivan
I've tried to do this twice. The only way that works really well
for me is Multiform + Accidental Change. The problem is that
you end up with very weak characters after paying for 4 or 5
forms. If you can get your GM to approve a 'mental stats and
personality' limitation, it'd probably work a lot better.
A psych or physical limitation alone doesn't usually do it -
unless there just isn't much of a difference among the forms....
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 21 Oct 97 07:31:14 GMT
Subject: Re: Question about Links
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h > >
h > > My Champions links page (http://www.mactyre.net/scm/links.html) is
h > > unwieldy -- at last count I had 136 links, and they're listed under
h > > couple of categories, like PBEM games, organizations, campaign
h > > the like. I've had a bunch of requests for me to annotate the dang
h > > but I'm not really sure how I should do it. Should I keep the
h > > and maybe include a few comments, should I alphabetize and include a
h > > comments, should I make value judgements as to the merit of sites,
h > > them, what? Obviously there are sites which are much more useful
h > > others, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable with judging the quality of
h > > others' work.
I think alphabetize within each category and include a few comments
about each site.
Thank you,
Opal
(Who makes frequent use of your site)
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 21 Oct 97 07:40:16 GMT
Subject: Fantasy Hero Cantrip Que
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h >
h > A player asked me what that would do for his diviner, a school with
h > detection and divination abilities. Obviously, it might be able to
h > tell
h > him where he left the keys to his camel, but what practical usage
h > might
h > such a spell have for a diviner? Could it allow him to know people's
h > names
h > when he met them? Could it predict the results of a hand of poker?
h > On
h > sheer game balance terms, I'd be for the former and against the
h > latter.
OK: low (10x) power magnifier or telescope functions. Tricks
like guessing what card you just picked or what object your'e
thinking of. Using Tarot & similar divination techniques to find
out fairly obvious facts about a person, or make very vague (astrology
column of your local newspaper) predictions. As to the specific things
you mentioned. I'd let him know the name someone is about to give him,
or finish peoples sentences, or tell is someones probably bluffing in
poker, but not True Names (or even real names if the person is concealing
thiers, like a Secret ID, for instance) or exact results of complex
random events (ie 'he's bluffing,' not 'you know exactly what everyone
has in thier hand'.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58 * --------------------------------------------------
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:22:00 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Cha
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>Personally, I'd use Restrainable. A 1/4 Limitation from the Hero
>Almanac 1, restrainable is used to simulate innate powers that can be
>restrained. For example, Angel has wings, with which he flies. His
>wings can be grabbed or entangled, taking the power, but they cannot
>be removed.
>
>A similar limitation could be used for the Black Knight. Combined with
>OIHID, it is so close to the effects that we have been discussing that
>I'd probably call the "weapon can be taken outright, but is recovered
>by Instant Change" nothing more than a Special Effect.
>
This sounds like the most acceptable so far, although it has different SFX
than wings and such... I thought I had seen the value for Restrainable at
-1/2, though. I don't actually have the Almanac, just have seen this Lim
used before.
- Jerry
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:56:15 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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At 07:13 AM 10/21/97 GMT, Opal wrote:
> h > > What I was talking about was that, in most cases, a "secondary
> h > entity"
> h > > based on 75 points with 75 points of Disadvantages costs the main
> h > character
> h > > just as much as one based on 100 points with 50 points of
> h > Disadvantages,
> h > > or one based on 150 points with no Disadvantages. This isn't true
> h > of
> h > > Followers (which use Base Points), but it is true of Duplicates and
> h > > Multiforms. (I'm not clear on Summon for this one.)
>
>Sorta... All duplicates and multiforms are built on the same base points
>as the main character. So a 100 base point super hero would always get
>a 100 + 50 point character when he pays for 150, never 75+ 75 (thoug it
>would certainly be OK to give him one), and certainly never 150 pts
>flat out. Experience can be thought of as adding to base points, so
>if the character were to earn 50 exp, that 150 pt duplicate or multiform
>could be 150 pts w/no disads.
Hm... I don't know how I missed that paragraph in Duplication and
Multiform [the same paragraph in two different locations]. You're
approximately right on what you say here, except that I get the impression
that if the base character is 100+150+50 then each duplicate/multiform
should have the same structure.
This does make somewhat more sense than what I thought to be the case
(whether you're interpreting the passage correctly, or I am).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 07:03:41 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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At 05:17 AM 10/21/97 GMT, Opal wrote:
> h > >Multo = 100 +150 +15 = 265 (50 pts in Multiform)
> h > >Mult1 = 100 + 85 +15 = 200
> h > >Mult2 = 100 + 0 + 0 = 100 (and has 15 unspent exp)
> h >
> h > I'll say there's a misunderstanding -- what you're describing here
is
> h > the Third Edition version of Multiform!
>
>Huh? How so? I will admit that I have version-itis pretty bad,
>but what exactly is 3rd Ed about the above?
Never mind. I was misintepreting part of what you were saying; it was
clarified by a later post of yours.
> h > Not that the description you were responding to was much better.
> h > In
> h > fact, I see nothing in the BBB that says anything about Multiforms
> h > earning
> h > experience. The only way I can see to increase the point value of a
> h > Multiform is to put more points into it, at the usual rate of 1 point
> h > spent
> h > per 5 points improved. (I see the same rule for Followers and most
> h > other
> h > "secondary entities.")
>
>Multiforms and Duplicates are not secondary entities. The character
>earns exp regardless of which form he's in. The Multiform power defines
>the maximum points you can spend on each form, but, all those points
>still have to come from somewhere - base points, disadvantages, or
>experience.
Your first sentence depends on how one defines "secondary entities."
The definition I use stems from the character sheet: if the PC has to pay
points for it, then it's secondary. Followers, Vehicles, Bases, Summonees,
Duplicates, and Multiforms are all "secondary entities" in this sense.
As secondary entities Multiforms do not gain experience for themselves.
The base character earns all experience (even for events centering on a
Duplicate or alternate Multiform), and spends it from there.
> h > However, a Multiform can have more points than the base character
> h > if the
> h > base character spends 1:1 point for the extras.
> h >
>You're thinking of Followers. With Multiform, the highest point form is
>automatically the 'base' form. If one of the multiforms was bought up
>higher than the original, the cost of the Multiform power would have
>to be completely recalculated with the highest-point form as the 'base.'
Actually, I was thinking of Summon.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 14:16:01 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Steve McGinness)
Subject: Re: Unbalanced Mental Power
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At 05:33 AM 21/10/97 GMT, Multiple recipients of Hero wrote:
> h > If someone gets a telepathy, and very good mind scan and ego attack
> h > for example. He can make a telepathy link with someone of his team,
> h > and then away from the danger of the battle, and receiving information
> h > about the battle from his partner he could just mind scan and ego
attack any
> h > opponent his partner could detect, being almost completely safe. And
> h > he could even get these powers by an Elemental Control.
> h > Is this right ? What do you think about this ?
>
[snip]
>
>One option that might make the idea more acceptable: If the
>character has mind link with one, specific other character
>in the group, instead of general Telepath, and could only
>project thier other powers to that characters general area
>while that character is conscious to act as his eyes and
>ears, then it would be OK from a game balance standpoint.
>(the character can't be attacked, but if his forward
>observer is taken down, he's not a problem anymore).
>
I faced a similar problem to this with my old gaming group and wimped out of
a decision. Two fo the players wanted to play a composite hero, one was a
brick type who would be very physical whilst the other was a cripple who
piggy-backed on the brick. They wanted to share damage etc and utilise the
brick as the mobile carrier for the mentalist. If the brick was knocked
unconcious then the mentalist would snap back to his room and if the
mentalist was knocked unconcious the brick would recieve some psychic
feedback due to the enforced withdrawal.
I couldn't decide how to do it and so told them no. I thought I would
mention it because it was so similar to what was just mentioned, and that
perhaps the construction of such a character might be distracting for the
group??
Stephen "interested to see ideas on this" McGinness
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From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Steve McGinness)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 14:16:01 GMT
X-To: hero-l@com.october (Multiple recipients of Hero), champ-l@org.omg
Subject: Re: Unbalanced Mental Power
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At 05:33 AM 21/10/97 GMT, Multiple recipients of Hero wrote:
> h > If someone gets a telepathy, and very good mind scan and ego attack
> h > for example. He can make a telepathy link with someone of his team,
> h > and then away from the danger of the battle, and receiving information
> h > about the battle from his partner he could just mind scan and ego
attack any
> h > opponent his partner could detect, being almost completely safe. And
> h > he could even get these powers by an Elemental Control.
> h > Is this right ? What do you think about this ?
>
[snip]
>
>One option that might make the idea more acceptable: If the
>character has mind link with one, specific other character
>in the group, instead of general Telepath, and could only
>project thier other powers to that characters general area
>while that character is conscious to act as his eyes and
>ears, then it would be OK from a game balance standpoint.
>(the character can't be attacked, but if his forward
>observer is taken down, he's not a problem anymore).
>
I faced a similar problem to this with my old gaming group and wimped out of
a decision. Two fo the players wanted to play a composite hero, one was a
brick type who would be very physical whilst the other was a cripple who
piggy-backed on the brick. They wanted to share damage etc and utilise the
brick as the mobile carrier for the mentalist. If the brick was knocked
unconcious then the mentalist would snap back to his room and if the
mentalist was knocked unconcious the brick would recieve some psychic
feedback due to the enforced withdrawal.
I couldn't decide how to do it and so told them no. I thought I would
mention it because it was so similar to what was just mentioned, and that
perhaps the construction of such a character might be distracting for the
group??
Stephen "interested to see ideas on this" McGinness
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Multiple Personality syn
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "O" == Opal <Opal@october.com> writes:
O> I've tried to do this twice. The only way that works really well for me
O> is Multiform + Accidental Change. The problem is that you end up with
O> very weak characters after paying for 4 or 5 forms. If you can get your
O> GM to approve a 'mental stats and personality' limitation, it'd probably
O> work a lot better.
A character I designed but never played (the game folded before it started)
had something similar... except that it was not a disadvantage. I built it
around a Multipower. All the skills available to a "personality mode" were
wedged into an ultra slot.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:34:26 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Mentally Unbalanced
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At 02:16 PM 10/21/97 GMT, Steve McGinness wrote:
>I faced a similar problem to this with my old gaming group and wimped out of
>a decision. Two fo the players wanted to play a composite hero, one was a
>brick type who would be very physical whilst the other was a cripple who
>piggy-backed on the brick. They wanted to share damage etc and utilise the
>brick as the mobile carrier for the mentalist. If the brick was knocked
>unconcious then the mentalist would snap back to his room and if the
>mentalist was knocked unconcious the brick would recieve some psychic
>feedback due to the enforced withdrawal.
>
>I couldn't decide how to do it and so told them no. I thought I would
>mention it because it was so similar to what was just mentioned, and that
>perhaps the construction of such a character might be distracting for the
>group??
This is an interesting concept! I can see a lot of stuff that could be
done to implement, though it utilizes a lot of house rules and probably
doesn't represent what the players wanted quite exactly.
First, of course, I'd want to be sure that both players would be coming
regularly, or at least would always be coming in together. It'd be
terrible to have one of them show and the other not, leaving the one who
came with nothing to do. I gather that most folks on the list have had
considerably less problem with this than I have, so it's probably not a
huge concern.
The sharing of damage, where something felt by one is felt by both, is
something I've seen several different ways. Some take it as a Physical
Limitation, and I've also seen it represented with Susceptibility. I like
the idea of using a variant form of Vulnerability for this type of thing.
Treat it as a 2x Vulnerability to all damage, except that both the extra
damage and the Disadvantage itself are taken by the other character. It's
handled a little differently, in that the targeted character's defenses do
count against the hurt character's damage, but this can be offset by some
modifier like -5 points or 1/2x value. This would be Very Common for most
things, and bought separately (with a GM's call to make it less then Very
Common) for Adjustment, Flash, and Mental attacks.
The mentalist snapping back to his room when the Brick goes down could
be represented with a Teleport, 1 fixed location, with lots of extra
distance. The modifiers most strongly suggested by the description are 0
END Persistent, Trigger, Always On.
The mental feedback felt by the brick would rather obviously be a
Susceptibility, probably 3d6, to the mentalist getting knocked out.
That much said, however, they do seem slightly unbalanced in that the
brick can continue to function without the mentalist but the mentalist is
out of the picture should be brick be rendered unconscious. I'd recommend
the following modifier to the concept: Forget sending the mentalist away
when the brick is knocked out. But as much as the mentalist is dependent
on the brick for mobility, so the brick should be dependent on the
mentalist for something, and I'd suggest senses.
So the brick, on his character sheet, is Blind and Deaf, and has
Clairsentience for Normal Sight and Normal Hearing that only functions
through the mentalist's senses (modify to your own taste and interpretation
of the rules). When the mentalist goes down, the brick can still function
somewhat, but is literally fighting blind. (To make matters worse, he
might even go Berserk when blinded.)
Of course, all of this would make the characters extremely vulnerable,
with an incredibly profound weakness that villains will be constantly
seeking to exploit (which, I can only assume, was the players' intent).
They can make up for it by having good defenses; the brick high PD and ED,
and the Mentalist maybe a level of Shrinking.
---
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:16:16 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
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At 03:34 PM 10/17/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>JD> Did you have to waste our time just to chant? Our (mine and Rick
>JD> Ryker's) contention is that it *is* a Limitation. Possibly not a
>JD> *combat* oriented Limitation... but then, if you discount those, get
>JD> rid of 75% of the Disadvantages on your sheet, too.
>
>Given that the described use of Instant Change was specifically to overcome
>any disadvantages to Focus or OHID, I believe that it did need being said.
>The character in question clearly was *NOT* limited by either Focus or
>OHID. He was able to retrieve his weapons with no effort; likewise he was
>able to switch between normal and heroic identities without restriction.
>
>So, no bonus.
"No effort" and "without restriction" are not the only problems to be
overcome in this case. The fact that his opponents did not take advantage
of the fact that he was essentially defenseless for the moment that he was
in civilian ID is not of his own doing -- at least, as far as I can tell.
Also, as far as I could tell, the removed weapons could have been used
against him.
---
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Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:17:50 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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At 10:46 PM 10/17/97 -0700, Captain Spith wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> What I was talking about was that, in most cases, a "secondary entity"
>> based on 75 points with 75 points of Disadvantages costs the main character
>> just as much as one based on 100 points with 50 points of Disadvantages,
>> or one based on 150 points with no Disadvantages. This isn't true of
>> Followers (which use Base Points), but it is true of Duplicates and
>> Multiforms. (I'm not clear on Summon for this one.)
>
> This shouldn't make any difference, though, since most games will
>have all players on the same scale (all 100+150 or all 75+75, etc.),
>thus there would be no character inequities, and as for the follower(s);
>the comparative savings reflects the fact that a follower is
>GM-CONTROLLED, based on the player's original conception; Dupes and
>Multis are directly controlled by the player, thus more expensive to
>reflect more control.
But it *does* make a difference, and the fact that all players in most
games are on the same scale is actually what makes it as much of a problem
as it is. If my 250-point PC has paid for a 200-point multiform (at a cost
of 40 points), is there any reason I should make him a 100+100 character as
opposed to a 200+0 character?
I can handle the fact that Duplicates and Multiforms are more expensive
than Followers. It makes perfectly good sense to me. If they did not,
then there should be some other restriction that makes them harder to
handle (like costing END to maintain). The problem is that if the
Dupe/Multi has Disadvantages, then that form is paying for the points
(through the Disadvantage), and so is the base character.
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Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:18:55 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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At 12:15 AM 10/18/97 EDT, David W Toomey wrote:
>> However, a Multiform can have more points than the base character
>>if the
>>base character spends 1:1 point for the extras.
>
>
> No, the most expensive version, not counting Multiform costs *is* the
>base character,
>and has to pay the multiform costs for the others. If one of the other
>forms becomes
>more expensive, than *it* becomes the base.
I checked, and you're right; Multiform is the exception among "secondary
entities" to the rule I gave above.
However, I don't know if a secondary Multiform should (strictly
speaking) be allowed to become more powerful than the original base form.
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Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:20:26 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Non-Stereotypical Minority Supers
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At 02:03 PM 10/17/97 -0500, Rick Ryker wrote:
>Germans called themselves Allemagne (sp) which meant "All the People"
Does that mean that Hitler proved Lincoln wrong by fooling All the
People all of the time?
(Sorry; arguably bad taste there. I just couldn't resist the pun.)
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Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:22:13 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: The Dreaded TRANSFORM (was Grey Areas)
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At 08:05 PM 10/17/97, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>> My general rule on this is:
>> If the Transform does not affect the character sheet (except maybe a
>>word or two at most), it's a Cosmetic Transform.
>
>Yes.
>
>>If it shifts a few of the target's points around, but the total is the
>>same, it's a Minor Transform.
>
>Shifting point is definately Major - shifting SFX can be minor.
That's debatable, but I'll go along with it in general. It depends
somewhat on how much of a shift in SFX.
>> If it changes the point total, it's a Major Transform.
>> The number of points that can be shifted with a Minor Transform is the
>>maximum that could be rolled on the dice. Similarly, a Major Transform
>>could either add or subtract the same maximum. (Again, this is a general
>>rule, with many possibilities for exceptions that would seem obscene if it
>>were a hard rule.)
>
>But balanced with Disadvantages if points are added.
I'll go along with that -- subject to the same limit.
>>>> Do cumulative transforms allow something to
>>>> be partially transformed?
>>>
>>>No.
>>
>> Agreed, though it would be nice if there was an Advantage (+1/2?) that
>>could make a Cumulative Transform into a Gradual Transform.
>
>The problem here is that you get to a stage where the effect is
>affecting the target without the character having paid points for it.
>Example: a prince being turned into a frog is going to gradually lose
>COM.
How does the character not pay points for it? If I have a Major
Transform (prince into frog) with a +1/2 Advantage for Cumulative and
another +1/2 Advantage for Gradual, I'm paying 30 points per 1d6. That's
2d6 at the 60 point level. So if I hit the prince with it and roll an
average of 7 BODY, and I need 20 points to completely Transform the Prince
(10 BODY), he goes one-third of the way into becoming a frog, suffering
one-third of the point alterations.
>If you want to do this, then it seems perfectly sensible to me that you
>buy an addition power, eg Drain, with appropriate effects. I'd do it
>like a poison, with Gradual Effect.
The thing with this is that many Transforms that change point totals add
*and* subtract points. And then there are those Cosmetic Transforms, which
don't alter point totals at all, but can be done in a gradual way (like
white man into black man, or some such; halfway would be mulatto or
something similar).
As a partial solution for the former problem, I once suggested a new
Adjustment Power which I called Alter. For 15 points/1d6, one could (at No
Range) shift a target's points from one specific Power or Characteristic to
another (like INT to STR). It's basically like an Aid linked to a Drain.
>>>Example: the Norse god Balder was Vulnerable to holly (or was it
>>>mistletoe?). If you change his Vulnerability from holly to oak, that's
>>>Major; if you change your oak spear to holly, that's minor; if you
>>>change your *steel* spear to holly, then that's Major; if you change
>>>your steel spear to look like it's made of holly, to try and make
>>>Balder run off, then that's Cosmetic.
>>
>> By my system, the first would be Minor, the rest Cosmetic.
>
>In the first example, you're semi-permanently affecting the character,
>definitely a Major Transform; in the second you're changing the SFX of
>your attack. See above for my delineations.
I dunno about that. I mean, changing a small detail like the SFX of
one's Vulnerability is a good deal less profound than changing him into a
mouse.
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Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:23:47 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Unbalanced Mental Power ?
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At 08:44 PM 10/17/97 -0300, Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria wrote:
>> Oh, and one mechanical note: mechanically speaking, the mentalist could
>> not accurately get position information from his colleague via Telepathy,
>> or even Mind Link (though the latter is recommended for mentalists for
>> unrelated reasons). Nor would he need to, if he had Mind Scan. But if he
>> wants to target opponents without Mind Scan (which is, by most accounts
>> including TUM, detectable by the target), he could get Clairsentience on
>> Sight. (Whether he'd need to buy that Clairsentience as a Targeting Sense
>> is a matter of interpretation.)
>
> Can someone with Mind Scan search for "hostile opponents that
>might be attacking his friends" without even knowing who might that
>opponents do or if they exist? What is the minimum information he
>need to know to be able to try to "connect" to an enemy by mind scan ? Or
>what side effects there could be depending on his knowledge? (like
>targeting a random person for example)
Oh, now I see what the Telepathy is good for. It's to identify
specifically *whom* the mentalist is trying to zap. Doy. I don't know why
I didn't come up with that in the first place. (Though still you'd be
better using Mind Link for that.)
As for this specific question, it's highly subject to debate. I don't
know that I'd allow this myself; or, if it was attempted in a reasonably
logical manner, I'd have the character make a PER Roll for each mind he
found with this method at a cumulative -2 for each mind (sort of like a
mental Sweep maneuver).
A better Power for this would be Detect. The ideal mechanic that I'd
recommend would be Detect Emotions, Ranged, Discriminatory, Targeting, No
Range Penalty, Costs END. With this, the character could not only mentally
scan an area for hostile feelings and intentions toward his comrades, but
also use the sense to target his mental attacks.
The way your mentalist is doing this is mechanically sound, though.
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Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:24:23 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
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At 01:23 PM 10/17/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>JD> So, Instant Change means you can't have OIHID?!?!?!?
>
>Pretty much. If unrestricted Instant Change allows you to circumvent the
>restrictions of OHID then OHID is worth no bonus.
But if unrestricted Instant Change does not allow you to circumvent the
restrictions of OIHID, or Instant Changing into Hero ID would cause some
other problem, then OIHID would be worth a bonus, right?
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Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:37:16 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
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Well, racism always has been justified with whatever means
possible, but . . .
On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Jim Dickinson wrote:
> <blockquote type=cite>In general how Powwow works (for Windows PC's only)
> is that a database of information on each registered user is kept by
> Tribal Voice, Inc. on its network. The Powwow software is
> memory-resident, and opens each computer (or networks) it runs on to
> contact and chatting, tripping, tribalizing, etc., from any other user.
> It may or may not plant a piece of itself in hidden ways in user systems
> (i.e. so you couldn't actually get rid of it or actually "turn it
> off". That would be rather hard to determine, and ought to be
> grounds for uneasiness about it. Tribal Voice offers a Yellow Page
> service for businesses that use it.<br>
> </blockquote><br>This is an paragraph that touts her ignorance to anyone
> who has dared "desecrate" their computer by installing the
> software. It doesn't work this way. If she can be this wrong about the
> simple mechanics of the program that I challenge the validity of the rest
> of her slanted comments.<p>
Hmmmm. I really have no idea how the software works, as I've not
run it. I do know a little about ICQ, a similar piece of software, and
have seen *it* wreak havok on computers after being installed then
uninstalled. The setup software for the technology involved tends to mess
up network settings. We had to re-format and totally reinstall Win95 on a
couple of systems in our computer lab.
As for the thought that it may keep itself hidden on the HD; this
isn't something to be worried about? I very carefully check all software
I install to look for hidden "hooks". (I've found a couple.) I know how
to hack most out; however, registry editing can be a chore.
But I am disturbed at your conclusion that someone being mistaken
as to the way a piece of software works is therefore wrong about
everything. This just does not follow. I don't judge someone because
they can't tell me exactly how a Web Browser works. Not everyone is as
computer literate as I. However, people who aren't as good with computers
may know a good deal more about other subjects than I -- on many subjects
I'd bet on it.
> This person has clearly formed a strong, one-sided opinion, and has
> clearly slanted her entire editorial around it. But I will assume that
> any other clear-minded individual might be able to deduce this on their
> own. To blindly accept what this person says without looking at the
> program or website themselves is making an ignorant mistake as well.<p>
Actually, she provides links to check out that what she is saying
about the company is true. The actual workings of the software aren't the
issue.
> I happen to like PW in a lot of ways. But I formed this opinion through
> USING the program, not by poking at it with a virtual
> "Anti-Racist" stick.
Hmmm. And I refuse to use a program put out by a racist company.
Even if it does work. It is not morally correct nor is it just.
> I don't want to argue with anyone about
> this -- if you like the program, and aren't offended by the use of the
> Native American terms, whether actually made by Native Americans or not,
> then have fun. If you are offended by the use of these terms unless used
> solely by TRUE (verifiable) Native Americans, or you just don't like the
> software, or are paranoid about some aspect of that software burying
> itself deep in your system to contact "big brother" (or maybe I
> should use some Native American equivalent to Big Brother to be more
> genre-oriented) and tell them secrets about you and your computer...well,
> then don't use PW. But it that's that case, you must be running Windows
> 95 because we all know Bill Gates is the Anti-Christ....<p>
Hmmm. I bet if you lived in the 19th century you would have had
no compunction about wearing clothes mad from slave-picked cotton. And
you probably would have justified your position with selective quotes and
logic, taking only the information that you wanted.
I can see you really don't see the point that the company is
taking spiritual and cultural contexts and using them to make fun of the
Native culture. At the same time, the company is representing itself as
"authentic" which will sorely modify the perception of many of these
concepts. You can go ahead and use an exploitive product from a racist
company, I can't stop you, but I can judge on the injustness of your
actions.
-Tim Gilberg
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Cha
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:08:15 -0700
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On Tuesday, October 21, 1997 2:17 AM, Opal wrote:
>
>
>I think that in this case, it was the way it was run that was in
>error. The evil knight should have Instant changed back into
>normal (which presumably loses him some SPD and Defenses), lost
>the rest of his phase due to the way changing SPD works, gotten
>thoughly trashed (I beleive he was about to be hit by his own
>sword) if not killed, and if he miraculously survived, changed
>back and still not had his weapons (they were OAFs, they were
>taken away, live with it). It's not that the combination of
>Focus, OIHID, and Instant Change is intrinsicly broken, it just
>has to be run correctly. Switching between normal and hero ID
>multiple times with Instant Change is no more reasonable than
>switching multipower slots more than once in a phase.
>
Uh, I think you missed something. The "evil knight" was the Black
Knight, a Marvel comics character. The described maneuver was used in
a recent Marvel comic, and we were trying to define it in Champions
terms.
It isn't a truly unacceptable maneuver. Surprising one's enemy by
doing _anything_ truly unusual can be a life saver, even in real life.
Even changing to one's Secret ID could cause a, "What the hell?"
reaction which could delay the execution long enough to change back,
thus disarming the opponent.
The problem is describing the limitation involved. He can be disarmed,
which is a disadvantage. He takes an entire phase before he gets back
his weapon, shield, or armor (use Instant Change, wait to next phase,
use it again). He has to turn into his unarmored form, one without any
skills or powers in some cases, possibly in the middle of combat, in
order to get back his devices without suffering the limitations of a
Focus.
OIHID covers part of this, but not the "can be disarmed or restrained
like a Focus" part. Focus covers more, but it is too broad: you can't
recover a focus by such a method.
Personally, I'd use Restrainable. A 1/4 Limitation from the Hero
Almanac 1, restrainable is used to simulate innate powers that can be
restrained. For example, Angel has wings, with which he flies. His
wings can be grabbed or entangled, taking the power, but they cannot
be removed.
A similar limitation could be used for the Black Knight. Combined with
OIHID, it is so close to the effects that we have been discussing that
I'd probably call the "weapon can be taken outright, but is recovered
by Instant Change" nothing more than a Special Effect.
Filksinger
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:41:58 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Multiple Personality syndrome
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At 06:27 PM 10/20/97 +0100, Chris Lynch wrote:
>Now my question: How about a character who has traumatic flashbacks? I'm
>torn between enraged/berserk and physical limitation (the flashbacks are so
>vivid that he is incapacitated whilst he is undergoing them)?
Either could be used, depending on the severity and dynamic of the
problem.
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Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:19:44 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Cha
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At 01:08 PM 10/21/97 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>Personally, I'd use Restrainable. A 1/4 Limitation from the Hero
>Almanac 1, restrainable is used to simulate innate powers that can be
>restrained. For example, Angel has wings, with which he flies. His
>wings can be grabbed or entangled, taking the power, but they cannot
>be removed.
Restrainable in HSA1 is -1/2. And the situation under discussion isn't
quite covered under Restrainable, though a similar Limitation might.
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:39:35 +0000
Subject: Re: Tangent PbeM
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> At this moment a hero appear:the 1st Atom. He tried stop that Nuclear
> insanity but he there was to many nukes. After this incident the southest
> state of US is Georgia. Where was Florida now is a strange part of the
> ocean full of mutant lifeforms called Sea Devils (mutated anthropormophic
> fishes).
Ahem. What about Texas? It runs farther south than Georgia.
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Cha
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:52:18 -0700
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On 10/21/97 2:55 PM, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
<snip>
>This sounds like the most acceptable so far, although it has
different SFX
>than wings and such...
Thank you.
> I thought I had seen the value for Restrainable at
>-1/2, though. I don't actually have the Almanac, just have seen this
Lim
>used before.
I don't know where my HA1 is, but you are correct. I had forgotten
that is was exactly the same as the difference between an OIF and a
OAF.
Filksinger
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Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:09:44 -0200
From: "Rafael Sant'Anna Meyer" <avatar@br.homeshopping.com.br>
Subject: Tangent Universe
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Hi People,
I was reading some hot comics (one-shot) and I found some interesting
characters. The best character are the Flash (IMHO). I would like know if
anyone could give a help to build a EC with her powers.
Eletric Avatar
avatar@br.homeshopping.com.br
eletric_avatar@hotmail.com
UIN:3291380
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 22 Oct 97 00:11:00 GMT
Subject: Re: New Powers Plug-In (
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Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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h > From: "Jason A. Dour" <jad@bcc.louisville.edu>
h > This letter is probably pointless, but I feel it had to be said
h > anyway...
h > On 17 Oct 1997, Opal wrote:
h > > Well, if a Hero player wants the background from New Melinium, he's
h > > also buying a book for a system he'll never play. I don't see the
h > > difference.
h >
h > As I stated in my original post, I was asking for HERO4 thoughts,
h > experiences, and knowledge -- *NOT* Fuzion-specific information. Is
h > *NOT* what this list is about -- helping with HERO4? Is it truly
h > impossible for someone to get helpful information instead of being
h > that they're going about their gaming incorrectly? Had I posted my
h > questions, but instead were asking for help with making my HERO4 game
h > more smoothly, would I have received different response? More than
h > likely, I would have.
In your original post you made a statement to the effect that it was
wrong for Fuzion players to be forced to buy HERO4 to get a good power
creation system. I was just responding to that statement. This list
is for discussion, and, when someone ventures an opinion I disagree with,
it's OK for me to make my own opinion on the matter known. Isn't it?
h > If I had only wanted Fuzion information, I would have restricted
h > my poll to the Fuzion list I created. Instead, I went to the forums
h > that
h > were most applicable, and here found not helpful knowledge, but
h > off-handed
h > dismissal.
I did not intend to be off-handed or dismissive. I was only replying
to one part of your post. I know it certainly wasn't what you were
after. It's just that now that Hero Games is trying to support both
Hero and Fuzion, Hero players go begging for new material, and Fuzion
players are anxious for new suplements. The guys at Hero can only do
so much. Fuzion is supposed to be a rules-lite game, adaptable to many
settings, so Hero & RTal can put out lots of cool settings and expand
thier customer base a bit. Hero is very system-oriented and being
kept around for us jaded die-hards.
Each system is unique. Hero-level complexity would kill Fuzion. Wonderful
new settings would be wasted on Hero. It works out. I can design my
hideously complex Hero character and port him into a Fuzion setting, or
get conversions off the web site and use a Fuzion setting with Hero rules.
h > > I have to agree. Fuzion is meant to be a simpler system than Hero,
h > > throwing in a Hero-level creation system is pointless. It would
h > make
h > > Fuzion too complicated. Remeber the old KISS addage:
h >
h > Well, contrary to what you or some of the other thread writers
h > might believe, I *DO* own HERO4. In fact, I probably own 75% or more
h > all HERO4 products. Does that mean I know *everything* about HERO4?
h > Does that mean I shouldn't solicit intelligent input from other
h > No. But obviously, since I'm one of the traitorous players who have
h > to Fuzion over HERO4, I don't deserve help from the members of this
h >
I don't consider you a traitor. I play Fuzion and Hero, both. Obviously
I've been playing Hero a lot longer, but both games have thier good
sides. Fuzion's good side is it's simplicity and speed of play. I
just think that a complex powers plug-in would make Fuzion into a
poor Hero clone. I don't want to see Fuzion marginalized the way
Champions was, because it became too complex.
Nothing I said (here or in my previous post) was meant to be a personal
attack on you, or to tell you how to play your games. It's all just
my opinions about a couple of games that a really want to see do well.
I am very sorry that my comments came accross so negatively.
h > Disappointed,
h > Jason
Opal
(Who hates to see anyone disappointed)
PS: I do have a number of variants I use. Most of them are probably
irrellevant to Fuzion, but a few might be useful to you. You can
find them on the Red October web page:
http://www.october.com/Public/HeroRules/VARIANTS.ZIP
the file is in zipped .txt format. I recently updated it, but the
changes may not have shown up yet.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:46:30 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: FutureGuy
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
>
> FutureGuy is a superhero from the future who uses his nifty
> gadgets to fight crime in the past. All of his gear is powered by
> special Amirium-369 Power Cells (that are securely mounted on his
> belt).
> The A-369 PC belt is an END Reserve of 200, with a REC of 50.
> The belt is shielded, and contains the dangerous, radioactive element
> A-369. Both the belt and shielding are very resistant to damage.
> The Amirium element has a side effect of being non-teleportable
> due to it's unusual properties.
> The unit functions well, in most cases. If the outer
> core is breeched, however, the battery leaks it's harmful
> stored radiation. This can be mended, however, by FutureGuy...
> but not usually 'on the fly.' Amirium radiation, in it's
> uncondensed form, has properties akin to that of other
> hard radiation types.
>
> Here's my query:
> I've figured the END cost for the belt with the following
> Adv./Lim.:
> *END 200: BC = 20
> Hardened AC = 25
> IIF (Mobile, Unbreakable, Universal)
> RC = 20
>
> [I'm new at this... so if this is wrong, correct me please] As far as I know, the unbreakable definition for a focus means that it can not
be broken except by one way defined at the start. Consequently, the use of the hardened
advantage is a waste of points (at this time).
> Now, here's my boggle. THe REC of 50 also has the advantage of
> Hardened, but, when the battery is breached, the REC gets spotty, sometimes
> replenishing the END, getting weaker and weaker with increased damage.
> In addition, when it is struck, there is a chance of a radiation leak
> with affects the character and the area.
From this, the recovery side of the IIF is NOT unbreakable and hence can be
damaged by attacks directed at the focus. In this case, the hardened advantage will
lessen the chance of armour piecing attacks breaching the shielding. As for the
reduction of the recovery levels, try using the ablative technique where every time the
battery is damaged, the battery aquires a greater activation roll and a corresponding
reduction in power levels (14- is 90%, 13- 85%, etc). What amount of disadvantage this
would be is between you and your GM but I would give it -3/4 or perhaps even -1.
The radiation leak would be brought as activation modified by roll only when
struck.
> When the REC no longer functions, and all of the END is wasted,
> the radiation levels 'die down' doing more subtle damage to the character
> (i.e. long term effects like cancer and radiation poisoning).
> This is a IIF (Moble, Universal) but the shielding is not
> Unbreakable. I was thinking of purchasing Ablative for REC only
> to simulate the steady leak, and Side Effect for REC only to represent
> the Intense Radiation of the leak (AC of power).
> According to game mechanics, how much would the Real Cost be?
(Sorry, didn't read far enough the second time. Refer above.)
> Also, the 'Side Effect' would switch from 'Intense Radiation'
> to 'Passive Radiation.' Does this effect the Lim 'Side Effect' in any
> way? The 'Intense Radiation' should have the following properties:
> Continuous (stays around from phase to phase), Explosion (the 'leak'
> damages thinsg surroudig it, but range lessens the intensity),
> Invisible Power Effects (you take damage, but don't really feel it
> or see it glowing), Indirect (goes through barriers like normal
> walls), NND (defense is lead/radiation shielding or LS: Radiation).
> The radiation would do No Knockback.
> First, are my Adv. for the radiation valid or bunk? Can you have
> a ranged Special Effect (like an RKA)? What about the Lim. (No KB),
> the Side Effect is calculated on Active Points, but the Lim. doesn't
> factor into that (or does it?). How often would the character take
> damage? When would it stop? Does the Side Effect feed off the END
> Reserve as far as the AC goes or is it 0 END?
> About the 'secondary' effect of 'Passive Radiation' Would
> it go into effect when the REC doesn't function (gone) or when the
> END is depleated (through use or 'leakage' [assuming the SE would
> feed off the END Reserve])? What would you make the Passive Radiation
> SE (Transformation, a Drain, or Phys. Lim.: Radiation Poisioning/Cancer).
> Could you even have a 'changing' m
> Side Effect?
How radiation is handled depends on the way the ref is going to play it. There
is no real difference between intense radiation and passive radiation (as you describe
it) except the amount of time needed to build up enough rads to die. What you allocate
to passive radiation, I would use for intense expanded to include AOE explosion and
invisible to two sense groups (plus, if you wish, indirect. ALthough even some cover
between you and the source cant hurt.) Anybody with the appropiate sense to detect
radiation (by whatever means) will sense the leak (and hopefully do something about it).
If your referee likes radiation accidents in the comic book sense, your leaking
battery will give him/her many opportunities to have the heroes (and villians) gain
extra powers and abilities. If thats the case, talk to him about the possibilities and
ramifications of the deed.
You can define the side effect to be whatever you wish, even if it changes
depending on the condition. All that is required is that te total cost of the effect is
at least the level of the side effect paid for.
>
> I have a feeling this is going to be throughly thrashed and
> flamed... please do. :) I'm getting used to the system...
>
> -Jason Sullivan Gods, what ever happens, just dont let me be anywhere near the walking pile when
he has an accident.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
X-Sender: avatar@pop-gw.homeshopping.com.br
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:24:02 -0200
From: "Rafael Sant'Anna Meyer" <avatar@br.homeshopping.com.br>
Subject: Tangent PbeM
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Hi,
I am open a Tangent PBEM (or PBPOWWOW or ICQ if everybody have this
programs).
A brief information about the Universe for who didn't read the comics.
At Cuban Missiles crisis in 60's the Pres Kennidy made a big mistake:send
some nukes to blow out Fidel's Reds and show how the America act in a crisis.
At this moment a hero appear:the 1st Atom. He tried stop that Nuclear
insanity but he there was to many nukes. After this incident the southest
state of US is Georgia. Where was Florida now is a strange part of the
ocean full of mutant lifeforms called Sea Devils (mutated anthropormophic
fishes).
At the 60's the US govern created the ultimate democracy platoon to clean
all kind of communist menace at any democratic nation, the Steel men. They
fought at Praga's Spring and won. Their sucess was big enought to elect a
Steel man for president.
Behind the scenes there are a secret society called Nightwing. Created by
Vandal Savage at 1700's the Nightwing control all America by Sorcery (White
or Black),blackmails or by making some dirty works. After the American
Idependence they split in 2 branchs. The American was a agent of the world
change and the European (Meridian) fought against the monarchy fall. Now
the Nightwing is the most secret federal agency. Even the President don't
know about them. They have security clearance level 4. And their leaders
have security clearance level Alpha.
Now it 1997 and this is the World Situation:
-The Atom I grandson made his debut The atom III is the hero#1 of america.
The third generation of the Heroes is a kind of hero who nobody can doubt
of his loyalty.
-Lia "The Flash" Nelson is starring the newest holo with Amazing Special
effects technology developted by herself. This 16 y.o. is the most hunted
celebrity of America.
-The chaosbringer Joker is the one-woman revolution. Some more fanatical
followers of her filosophy (the life is a big joke and the world how we
know is the worst gag of the reality) is growing among the College
students. Her terrorism acts always is followed of a maniacal laught. She
fight the sistem with pratical Jokes and using media.
-Some persons told about how the world will be destroyed. They
self-proclaimed came from the future. The press call them Doom Patrol. The
1st prophecy happened. A soviet space shuttle was destroyed before its take
off.
The role of characters:
The characters must be a Tangent version of a DC Universe character. The
forbidden heros (or villains) are:Lex Luthor,Batman,Superman,Aquaman,Green
LAntern,Wildcat, and all cited above.
They'll be members of Nightwing organization.
Data about the campgain:
-Base 150 + 150 from disads.
-No VPPs.
-No Alien origns.
-The tecnology is 10 years more advanced than ours. Think a Cyberpunk
(without to many implants) theme with Supers and other freaks.
-Shapeshifters,Spellcasters,Assassins
-NO CASUAL KILLER or TRIGGERHAPPY!
Normal Technology cost no point. Implants are a -1/2 limitation.
Power Armor is a -1 Limitation and gain 1 level of Density Increase per 10
active points. (New Power for Power Armors:Density Decrease - cost 15
points per level. Halves the weight per level).
Netrunners are accept.
Packages accepts:
Wizards (from FH)
Any military
Any from Cyberhero
Nightwing package (obrigatory) (0 Points)
Nightwing membership
Federal Police Powers
FAM:Light Weapons
+1 OCV a kind of weapon
FAM:a kind of area of action (magic,dirty operations or Nightwing secrets)
Choice 3:Bribing,Bureaucratics,Combat Driving / Piloting , Conversation,
Deduction, Shadowing, Streetwise, KS:Magic,Shapeshift control or Criminology)
Disads:
Watched by Nightwing 11-
Secret Nightwing operations (11-)
Reputation
DF:Nightwing
Hunted by Meridian,11-
More details e-mail me.
4 Slots only.
Eletric Avatar
avatar@br.homeshopping.com.br
eletric_avatar@hotmail.com
UIN:3291380
X-Sender: mactyre@mail.aci.net
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:16:13 -0700
From: Matthew Mactyre <mactyre@aci.net>
Subject: Re: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
Cc: JD Dickinson <jd@cyberhighway.net>
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At 01:37 PM 10/21/97 -0500, you wrote:
> Hmmm. And I refuse to use a program put out by a racist company.
>Even if it does work. It is not morally correct nor is it just.
>
>> I don't want to argue with anyone about
>> this -- if you like the program, and aren't offended by the use of the
>> Native American terms, whether actually made by Native Americans or not,
>> then have fun. If you are offended by the use of these terms unless used
>> solely by TRUE (verifiable) Native Americans, or you just don't like the
>> software, or are paranoid about some aspect of that software burying
>> itself deep in your system to contact "big brother" (or maybe I
>> should use some Native American equivalent to Big Brother to be more
>> genre-oriented) and tell them secrets about you and your computer...well,
>> then don't use PW. But it that's that case, you must be running Windows
>> 95 because we all know Bill Gates is the Anti-Christ....<p>
>
>
> Hmmm. I bet if you lived in the 19th century you would have had
>no compunction about wearing clothes mad from slave-picked cotton. And
>you probably would have justified your position with selective quotes and
>logic, taking only the information that you wanted.
Wow! I've been following this thread for several days and this has now sunk
to a new low. I don't remember Jim directly insulting you, and I would hope
that we could keep this discussion above the belt.
> I can see you really don't see the point that the company is
>taking spiritual and cultural contexts and using them to make fun of the
>Native culture. At the same time, the company is representing itself as
>"authentic" which will sorely modify the perception of many of these
>concepts. You can go ahead and use an exploitive product from a racist
>company, I can't stop you, but I can judge on the injustness of your
>actions.
Who are you to judge? I'm partially Native American, and only the short
registration period imposed by the Bureau of Indian Affairs during the late
19th century prevents me from being part of that proud people, legally. I'm
not offended by the term Powwow; however, I am offended by hypocrisy. You
have attempted to impose your morals on this list, which I find more
offensive than the term Powwow.
Do you use the phone? Do you make long distance phone calls? You do know
that the tariff imposed from long distance charges goes to support the Dept.
of Energy. I'm sure you understand that they are responsible for unethical
testing in which 1000s of human subjects were exposed to radiation in the
interest of "National Security." I guess you support human experimentation
if you call your mother long distance. Right?
Or how about sugar? Do you use the stuff? Do you know how humans are
exploited on a daily bases for its production? It is no coincidence that
most of the people working those sugar cane fields are Black or Hispanic. I
guess it makes you a racist if you sweeten your tea.
How about clothes? I'm sure you wear them (or if you don't, I don't want to
know about it). How many Southeast Asian and Hispanic children are exploited
to put the clothes on your back? I guess you are a racist if you wear
clothes.
There are those of us that only buy C&H sugar, that use Internet Phone, and
buy American clothes (although Kathie Lee can attest to that not being any
guarantee). But to call someone a racist for not supporting your viewpoint
is absurd. We live in a world full of injustice, but each of us has to
choose our battles.
I'm hoping this thread will end and we can get back to the important work of
furthering 4th Hero. However, you've given me an idea for a great NPC.
Regards,
Matthew
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_________________
Matthew Mactyre
mactyre@aci.net
http://www.mactyre.net
PGP Key available on request
PGP fingerprint = A2 AE 68 AE 2E 96 94 C3 30 ED 53 59 A6 FF 3B 1F
If you can't describe it with numbers, it isn't a science.
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 09:54:06 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Steve McGinness)
Subject: Re: Fw: Multiple Personality syndrome
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 06:27 PM 20/10/97 +0100, Chris Lynch wrote:
>Now my question: How about a character who has traumatic flashbacks? I'm
>torn between enraged/berserk and physical limitation (the flashbacks are so
>vivid that he is incapacitated whilst he is undergoing them)?
>
There's also the possibility of doing something like side effects (though
I'm not sure how you would cost it) where he will be subject to a
60ActivePoint hallucination, that someone around him becomes the focus of
the flashback. Mr NiceGuy suddenly shows his true identity as the RobotGuy
who once tortured you on his table, putting all the cybernetic implants in
your flesh that at once give you your powers whilst causing you constant
pain.......meanwhile everyone is trying to pry your hands away from the neck
of Mr NiceGuy wondering what the hell you mean by "I'll teach you to play
with the feelings of others!!" :-) :-)
Stephen
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:03:23 -0400
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Filksinger wrote:
> The problem is describing the limitation involved. He can be
> disarmed, which is a disadvantage. He takes an entire phase
> before he gets back his weapon, shield, or armor (use Instant
> Change, wait to next phase, use it again). He has to turn into
> his unarmored form, one without any skills or powers in some
> cases, possibly in the middle of combat, in order to get back
> his devices without suffering the limitations of a Focus.
It sounds to me like a recoverable focus. Use the recoverable modifier
for charges. He can wait until the end of combat to get his focus back
(all the bad guys are knocked out, so he just picks it up), or he can
recover it by some other GM-approved method (spend two phases to turn
back into Joe Blow then back to Super Sword while in a dangerous
situation).
Consider it a Recoverable OAF, at -1/2.
Dave Mattingly
From: Legionair <Legionair@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:14:08 EDT
Subject: Re: Tangent Universe
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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In a message dated 97-10-22 07:58:15 EDT, avatar@br.homeshopping.com.br
(Rafael Sant'Anna Meyer) writes:
<< I was reading some hot comics (one-shot) and I found some interesting
characters. The best character are the Flash (IMHO). I would like know if
anyone could give a help to build a EC with her powers. >>
I actually prefered the Green Lantern tangent comic. The other ones were
pretty good though.
Jason Galterio
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Cc: "'smcginn@csm.exeter.ac.uk'" <smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:43:16 -0400
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Stephen McGinness wrote:
> I think I can see where you are coming from but it isn't put
> forward very well. Are you suggesting that it works exactly
> like an OAF but there is a ritual you can use to bring it back
> to you even if it is remote in time and space (sorry I was
> getting carried away!!:-) )
Yes, that is what I was getting at. Anyone can retrieve their focus
normally (going and getting it), but since this focus can be retrieved
by another method, no matter where it is, the limitation isn't the full
OAF amount.
Dave Mattingly
http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905/pwrpnt.html
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:40:36 -0500 (EST)
From: "Jason A. Dour" <jad@bcc.louisville.edu>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: New Powers Plug-In (
Comments: Getting paid to be a geek is cool...
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On 22 Oct 1997, Opal wrote:
> In your original post you made a statement to the effect that it was
. . .
> it's OK for me to make my own opinion on the matter known. Isn't it?
Yes, it is OK to voice your opinion...but generally, constructive opinions
are not only better received, but also more helpful. I may have been a
bit harsh, but I don't find it to be particularly unfounded -- there has
been a history of knee-jerk reactionism to Fuzion by devoted Hero gamers.
I alluded that the "Divide By 5" method was not something that was
preferable for mass consumption, as it entails at the very least switching
design systems, and at most learning another system's power creation
simply because no-one has taken the time to do a rough translation that
pre-empts the Db5 method. I'm not saying it's preferable to whatever
system HG/RTAL come up with later...but it will be better than what's
presently available, IMHO.
> I did not intend to be off-handed or dismissive. I was only replying
. . .
> kept around for us jaded die-hards.
I felt dismissed less because of you expressing your opinions, but because
you offered no help even after expressing your opinions. I've found your
input especially helpful many times, and was disappointed that you seemed
to be part of the trend of thread, "Send those Fuzion boys packing!"
> I just think that a complex powers plug-in would make Fuzion into a
> poor Hero clone. I don't want to see Fuzion marginalized the way
> Champions was, because it became too complex.
Which is fine, and I can understand your opinion and concern. But I'm of
the point of view that it will help Fuzion in the short term. Yes, it'll
be a clonish patch from a complex yet largely good system, but it'll still
help out many people's gaming...
> PS: I do have a number of variants I use. Most of them are probably
> irrellevant to Fuzion, but a few might be useful to you. You can
> find them on the Red October web page:
I'll take a look at these. Thanks for clarifying your position. 8)
Jason
# Jason A. Dour <jad@bcc.louisville.edu> 1101
# Programmer Analyst II; Department of Radiation Oncology; Univ. of Lou.
# Finger for URLs, PGP public key, geek code, PJ Harvey info, et cetera.
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Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 13:42:38 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Steve McGinness)
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 08:03 AM 22/10/97 -0400, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>It sounds to me like a recoverable focus. Use the recoverable modifier
>for charges. He can wait until the end of combat to get his focus back
>(all the bad guys are knocked out, so he just picks it up), or he can
>recover it by some other GM-approved method (spend two phases to turn
>back into Joe Blow then back to Super Sword while in a dangerous
>situation).
>
>Consider it a Recoverable OAF, at -1/2.
>
>Dave Mattingly
>
Surely all foci are recoverable!! I think if the focus _wasn't _ recoverable
then you would have an even bigger limitation value for it!!
I think I can see where you are coming from but it isn't put forward very
well. Are you suggesting that it works exactly like an OAF but there is a
ritual you can use to bring it back to you even if it is remote in time and
space (sorry I was getting carried away!!:-) )
Then I think you might have a way of describing the function desired. I'd
shy away from the terminology though.
Stephen McGinness
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:41:20 -0500
From: Max <garymo@ipa.net>
Reply-To: garymo@ipa.net
Subject: Re: New Powers Plug-In (
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I have noticed a disturbing trend for pointless arguments/disagreements
between Fuzion and Champions4 players. I have played Champions for over
16 years....yes, I'm an old timer. Over the years, I have seen many
people become disenchanted with the system as it has gotten
progressively more difficult. The first edition Champions rules were
very simple, as was character creation. By the time Champions4 came
out, the rules system had become so top-heavy, that only a very few new
players were interested in spending the time necessary to play the
game. I have seen single combat situations that took
days...literally...to play out. Additionally, if you want to bring in
new "meat" to your campaign, it can sometimes be difficult to find
individuals who are interested in spending several hours creating a new
character. Yes, C4 is a fantastically detailed game system, but
"newbies" are increasingly difficult to come by. Fuzion, while it
looses some of the "intensity" of the C4 system, is much easier to
learn. IMHO, both systems have a place in this forum.
Max
--
When he concentrates, prepare against him; where he is strong, avoid
him. Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance. Invulnerability
depends on one's self; the enemy's vulnerability on him.
Sun Tzu
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:10:18 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: RE: Foci and Instant Cha
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>I didn't know about the Power Limitation "Restrainable".
>Before 4th Edition the examples for Angel's wings used some form of
>a modifed OIF to simulate the restrainable aspect of his wings.
>I never did like the way that was presented.
>Restrainable sounds much more reasonable as a limitation.
>
In some very poor cases, OAF was used, too. I think restrainable is sort of
the difference between Accessible and Inaccessible... that would explain why
it is worth -1/2 as well. I think I would go with this to model the Black
Knight's new weapons... That, and Incantations on his Instant Change.
- Jerry
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Interspecies cooperation/competition as a campaign theme
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:59:15 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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> [Interspecies conflict stuff clipped]
> Although this is getting a bit afield, I think it interesting as a
> thought exercise, as if it formed background for a campaign. I make no
> claims that it represents reality, or even currently accepted taxonomy.
> >
>
This actually makes for a fanscinating campaign bckground for
either a fantasy or Sci Fi world.
Setting up logical reasons for diferent species to compete or get along
can add a lot of detail to a game world. It's something most of them tend to
lack.
Anyone ever sit down and try to decide why Orc's and Elves
would fight? In my fantasy world I stopped declaring any one 'race' as inheritantly
evil years ago. In order to keep a state of conflict I tried to explain
each race's view on the competition for resources from it's own viewpoint.
This inter species conflict therefore plays a major role in several
keypoints in my worlds history. And to some extant, even in the current
era.
For Sci Fi it is a classic theme seen throughout the genre. When
alien X invades/is invaded by alien Y...
> I have no idea whether we, with our modern technolgy and concepts and
> with a rich fund of speculative literature that should prepare us for the
> event, will find a way to coexist with the first non-human sentient
> species we encounter. I have no idea whether they will be interested in
> coexisting with us. Will we even be able to communicate, or will the
> structure of our minds be so different as to preclude it?
>
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Hero / Fuzion on this list (was: Re: New Powers Plug-In ()
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:05:52 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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> "newbies" are increasingly difficult to come by. Fuzion, while it
> looses some of the "intensity" of the C4 system, is much easier to
> learn. IMHO, both systems have a place in this forum.
>
Fuzion has no place in this forum.
It has it's own mailing list. There's good reason they're seperate.
I wouldn't want to see Fuzion discusion here anymore than I would
DC Heroes, V&V, Marvel, or even Superbabes discussion here.
This list is for Champions/Hero discussion It is not a forum
for generic superhero RPG discussion.
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat, #Fuzionchat, #gurps, #V&V,
and #SuperHeroChat in DALnet IRC
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
From: Bill Burcham <bburcham@summitelectric.com>
Subject: RE: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:30:48 -0600
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Matthew-
Well said! I salute you. This thread is becoming tiresome. Can we put it
to rest?
============
Bill Burcham (bburcham@summitelectric.com)
Network/Systems Administrator
SUMMIT Electric Supply
Hear-Forget, See-Learn, Do-Understand
-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Mactyre [SMTP:mactyre@aci.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 1997 12:16 AM
To: champ-l@omg.org
Cc: JD Dickinson
Subject: Re: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
At 01:37 PM 10/21/97 -0500, you wrote:
> Hmmm. And I refuse to use a program put out by a racist
company.
>Even if it does work. It is not morally correct nor is it
just.
>
>> I don't want to argue with anyone about
>> this -- if you like the program, and aren't offended by the
use of the
>> Native American terms, whether actually made by Native
Americans or not,
>> then have fun. If you are offended by the use of these terms
unless used
>> solely by TRUE (verifiable) Native Americans, or you just
don't like the
>> software, or are paranoid about some aspect of that software
burying
>> itself deep in your system to contact "big brother"
(or maybe I
>> should use some Native American equivalent to Big Brother to
be more
>> genre-oriented) and tell them secrets about you and your
computer...well,
>> then don't use PW. But it that's that case, you must be
running Windows
>> 95 because we all know Bill Gates is the Anti-Christ....<p>
>
>
> Hmmm. I bet if you lived in the 19th century you would
have had
>no compunction about wearing clothes mad from slave-picked
cotton. And
>you probably would have justified your position with selective
quotes and
>logic, taking only the information that you wanted.
Wow! I've been following this thread for several days and this
has now sunk
to a new low. I don't remember Jim directly insulting you, and
I would hope
that we could keep this discussion above the belt.
> I can see you really don't see the point that the
company is
>taking spiritual and cultural contexts and using them to make
fun of the
>Native culture. At the same time, the company is representing
itself as
>"authentic" which will sorely modify the perception of many of
these
>concepts. You can go ahead and use an exploitive product from
a racist
>company, I can't stop you, but I can judge on the injustness of
your
>actions.
Who are you to judge? I'm partially Native American, and only
the short
registration period imposed by the Bureau of Indian Affairs
during the late
19th century prevents me from being part of that proud people,
legally. I'm
not offended by the term Powwow; however, I am offended by
hypocrisy. You
have attempted to impose your morals on this list, which I find
more
offensive than the term Powwow.
Do you use the phone? Do you make long distance phone calls?
You do know
that the tariff imposed from long distance charges goes to
support the Dept.
of Energy. I'm sure you understand that they are responsible
for unethical
testing in which 1000s of human subjects were exposed to
radiation in the
interest of "National Security." I guess you support human
experimentation
if you call your mother long distance. Right?
Or how about sugar? Do you use the stuff? Do you know how
humans are
exploited on a daily bases for its production? It is no
coincidence that
most of the people working those sugar cane fields are Black or
Hispanic. I
guess it makes you a racist if you sweeten your tea.
How about clothes? I'm sure you wear them (or if you don't, I
don't want to
know about it). How many Southeast Asian and Hispanic children
are exploited
to put the clothes on your back? I guess you are a racist if
you wear
clothes.
There are those of us that only buy C&H sugar, that use Internet
Phone, and
buy American clothes (although Kathie Lee can attest to that not
being any
guarantee). But to call someone a racist for not supporting
your viewpoint
is absurd. We live in a world full of injustice, but each of us
has to
choose our battles.
I'm hoping this thread will end and we can get back to the
important work of
furthering 4th Hero. However, you've given me an idea for a
great NPC.
Regards,
Matthew
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_________________
Matthew Mactyre
mactyre@aci.net
http://www.mactyre.net
PGP Key available on request
PGP fingerprint = A2 AE 68 AE 2E 96 94 C3 30 ED 53 59 A6 FF 3B
1F
If you can't describe it with numbers, it isn't a science.
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:49:57 -0700
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Champions too complex? Was Fuzion new powers...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 09:41 AM 10/22/97 -0500, Max wrote:
>I have noticed a disturbing trend for pointless arguments/disagreements
>between Fuzion and Champions4 players. I have played Champions for over
>16 years....yes, I'm an old timer. Over the years, I have seen many
>people become disenchanted with the system as it has gotten
>progressively more difficult. The first edition Champions rules were
>very simple, as was character creation.
I, too, have played Champions since Day I, and I disagree. C4 is a
progressive evolution, and about 85% of the rules in it were also in First
Edition, albeit in somewhat different form. Adding new powers doesn't make
character creation take longer, since you still have the same number of
points. VPPs are not significantly more complex than multipowers or
elemental controls, which were in First. Martial arts has gotten a lot more
complex, yes, but only if you want to play a martial artist. Most of the
other combat rules -- hit location, crippling, etc -- are not used in
4-color games.
The 'core' of the combat rules -- the speed chart, OCV, etc -- is
essentially unchanged. PD and ED, Resistant vs. non-Resistant defenses,
reading dice in five different ways -- all of that is as it always was.
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:43:43 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: No-Win Scenarios [Re: GMing Question #1]
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Reality Check: This discussion is about a *hypothetical* conflict between
Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal that resulted in the extinction of
Neanderthal, which I have assumed to be a different species. This view
is by no means the consensus; if expressed by an anthropologist, it might
be considered radical or reactionary or both at once.
Although this is getting a bit afield, I think it interesting as a
thought exercise, as if it formed background for a campaign. I make no
claims that it represents reality, or even currently accepted taxonomy.
Trevor Barrie wrote:
>
> On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Robert A. West wrote:
>
> > Since the two species could not (by definition of species) interbreed,
> > there was no basis for cooperation.
>
> Why is interfertility necessary for cooperation?
>
I can think of no observed instances of extended interspecies cooperation
among the anthropoid apes, yet all the anthropoid apes can form
cooperative societies among their own kind. The Benobo chimpanzees, who
may be our nearest relatives, have a relatively conflict-free society (at
least, compared with other chimpanzees) in which copulation is the
standard prelude to all manner of cooperative activity. I don't think it
an unreasonable inference that interfertility is the first, instinctive,
basis for cooperation.
Also, consider that the domestication of the dog, which *is* a form of
interspecies cooperation, did not take place until tens of thousands of
years after the date in question.
> (Aside: I've heard Neandrethal referred to as "homo sapiens neandrethalis"
> (ie, a subspecies of home sapiens) as well as "homo neandrethalis", but
> the former may be out of date (or just wrong).)
Well, it *is* misspelled. ;-) "Neanderthal" is the name of the valley
in Westphalia where a skeleton was unearthed in 1856 or 1857 that now
forms the type for the taxon. The spelling of place-names in Neo-Latin
follows the language of origin.
As I remarked earlier, this entire Cro-Magnon/Neanderthal thread is based
on a whimsical remark that I made. I made that remark in the full
knowledge that it probably does not conform to current anthropological
thinking, partly because I am aware that current thinking is subject to
change without notice.
There was an interesting discussion of the Neanderthal issue by Stephen
Jay Gould in Natural History magazine within the past year. He had
interesting insights into how societal preconceptions color the
interpretation of evidence, as well as his usual praise for the
ascendancy of cladistics as a means of understanding evolution. I
commend the article to anyone who is interested in the subject.
In any event, some researchers regard Neanderthal as a subspecies, others
as a separate species. Given our incomplete understanding of the
dynamics of speciation, I doubt that the issue is resolvable. Remember
that few of the rules of genetics are inviolate: mules are on rare
occasion fertile; offspring sometimes get both halves of one chromosome
from the same parent; it is all but certain that genetic material is on
occasion transferred from one species to another by viruses, and the new
genetic code is then transferred to offspring. Even if we had DNA
samples, we do not understand what is the borderline between subspecies
and species, and it is probably silly to imagine that a clean line
exists.
>
> > . . . Chimpanzees prey on
> > one another, and tribes of chimpanzees fight over resources. Why would it
> > be any different with the two species in question?
>
> Because the species involved are sentient, and consequently capable of
> being held responsible for their actions.
Well, you assume a lot in that sentence. Is sentience a binary state, or
a continuum? How much of moral responsibility depends on having a
society and technology that make the choice in question feasible? We are
not accustomed to thinking of domesticating animals as a technology, but
it was a *huge* advance, so much so that it constitutes part of the
"Paleolithic Revolution." Was extended interspecies cooperation even a
possible concept yet?
>
> > Where would a moral context come from that would override an instinctive
> > question of survival?
>
> The same place moral contexts always come from: the person evaluating the
> action.
While I am not normally a fan of cultural relativism, remember that we
are discussing hypothetical societies in the *eolithic* stage, if that.
Think of the awful gulf of years and events that separate us from them.
They not only lacked writing, they probably had little or no language.
They had not yet learned to make rope, tan hides, build structures or
domesticate animals. They may not have even achieved a tribal structure.
Consider how little we know about the *religion* (as opposed to the
literary myths) of the Greeks and Romans. We know next-to-nothing about
neolithic religion, nothing about paleolithic religion, and we don't even
know if eolithic religion existed.
I have no idea whether we, with our modern technolgy and concepts and
with a rich fund of speculative literature that should prepare us for the
event, will find a way to coexist with the first non-human sentient
species we encounter. I have no idea whether they will be interested in
coexisting with us. Will we even be able to communicate, or will the
structure of our minds be so different as to preclude it?
How much moreso would the situation have been in the dawn of time, with
no common language, no conceptual tools for developing one, and so on?
>
> > Survival is the first, and only, law of nature.
>
> True, but not really relevant IMO.
Extremely relevant, IMO.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:51:02 -0700
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
CC: hero-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions too complex? Was Fuzion new powers...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 18
> >I have noticed a disturbing trend for pointless arguments/disagreements
> >between Fuzion and Champions4 players. I have played Champions for over
> >16 years....yes, I'm an old timer. Over the years, I have seen many
> >people become disenchanted with the system as it has gotten
> >progressively more difficult. The first edition Champions rules were
> >very simple, as was character creation.
>
> I, too, have played Champions since Day I, and I disagree. C4 is a
> progressive evolution, and about 85% of the rules in it were also in First
> Edition, albeit in somewhat different form. Adding new powers doesn't make
> character creation take longer, since you still have the same number of
> points. VPPs are not significantly more complex than multipowers or
> elemental controls, which were in First. Martial arts has gotten a lot more
> complex, yes, but only if you want to play a martial artist. Most of the
> other combat rules -- hit location, crippling, etc -- are not used in
> 4-color games.
>
> The 'core' of the combat rules -- the speed chart, OCV, etc -- is
> essentially unchanged. PD and ED, Resistant vs. non-Resistant defenses,
> reading dice in five different ways -- all of that is as it always was.
This is what I've always told people... Not that anyone's ever believed me.
Personally I find champions simple and Fuzion complex...
Too many diferent types of points... cunfusing explanations, conflicting
rules systems...
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat, #Fuzionchat, #gurps, #V&V,
and #SuperHeroChat in DALnet IRC
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:31:41 -0700
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
Subject: Setting a power level and making sure the PC is 3D
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Had a intersting conversation on #herochat that made me think to ask
this here as well.
So here it is:
<Arcady> one think I really liked about GURPS Supers was an odd rule it
had for character creation
<Arcady> in GURPS, you have 100 points, or 500 in Supers.
<Arcady> so to make a Super you first made a 100 point normal PC
<Crunchy> right. So make a 100 point character, THEN tack on the
powers.
<Arcady> then you had 400 more points to add powers...
<Arcady> yeah
<Arcady> it forces 3d characters
<Crunchy> That can be done in Champs, too.
<Arcady> I may try the same thing in Hero
<Arcady> but
<Crunchy> the higher power levels you can use a similar rule.
<Arcady> your PC would then be a 50+50 normal with powers added on...?
<Arcady> or a 75+75 normal
<Crunchy> Hmm.
<Arcady> and how many points for the powers in order to get a BBB power
level
<Crunchy> Well, just like with the points for powers, don't set a hard
limit.
<Arcady> that's where I don't yet have a good answer...
<Crunchy> Just ask to see the "pre-powered" character.
<Arcady> maybe I should post this to the hero-l list
<Crunchy> Might get some good feedback.
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat, #Fuzionchat, #gurps, #V&V,
and #SuperHeroChat in DALnet IRC
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Comments: Authenticated sender is <Thanos@mail.zip.com.au>
From: "Robert Challenger" <Thanos@zip.com.au>
Organization: Team Vigilance
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:04:45 +0000
Subject: Re: Tangent PbeM
Priority: normal
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 56
On 21 Oct 97 Rafael Sant'Anna Meyer mumbled something about:
>
> I am open a Tangent PBEM (or PBPOWWOW or ICQ if everybody have this
> programs).
>
I notice that every time some new one-shot happens in comics, you
seem to run a PBEM based on it [amalgam, etc] I was just wondering if
these are all still going, and if so, could someone tell me what
theyre like??
[it just seems that Rafael must be almost dead from running all the
ones ive seen him advertise starting] 8)
---------------------------------------------------
I imagine bugs and girls have a dim perception that
nature played a cruel trick on them, but they lack
the intelligence to really comprehend the magnitude
of it - Calvin
Robert Challenger | thanos@zip.com.au
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:59:17 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Hero / Fuzion on this list (was: Re: New Powers Plug-In ()
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 26
At 09:05 AM 10/22/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote:
>> "newbies" are increasingly difficult to come by. Fuzion, while it
>> looses some of the "intensity" of the C4 system, is much easier to
>> learn. IMHO, both systems have a place in this forum.
>>
> Fuzion has no place in this forum.
>It has it's own mailing list. There's good reason they're seperate.
>I wouldn't want to see Fuzion discusion here anymore than I would
>DC Heroes, V&V, Marvel, or even Superbabes discussion here.
> This list is for Champions/Hero discussion It is not a forum
>for generic superhero RPG discussion.
Where would one go, then, to discuss comparisons between Fuzion and
Hero? Or even conversions between the two? Surely the Fuzion list is no
better or worse suited to such discussions than this one!
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 03:08:59 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Setting a power level and making sure the PC is 3D
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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><Arcady> one think I really liked about GURPS Supers was an odd rule it
>had for character creation
><Arcady> in GURPS, you have 100 points, or 500 in Supers.
><Arcady> so to make a Super you first made a 100 point normal PC
><Crunchy> right. So make a 100 point character, THEN tack on the
>powers.
><Arcady> then you had 400 more points to add powers...
><Arcady> yeah
><Arcady> it forces 3d characters
><Crunchy> That can be done in Champs, too.
><Arcady> I may try the same thing in Hero
><Arcady> but
><Crunchy> the higher power levels you can use a similar rule.
><Arcady> your PC would then be a 50+50 normal with powers added on...?
><Arcady> or a 75+75 normal
><Crunchy> Hmm.
><Arcady> and how many points for the powers in order to get a BBB power
>level
><Crunchy> Well, just like with the points for powers, don't set a hard
>limit.
><Arcady> that's where I don't yet have a good answer...
><Crunchy> Just ask to see the "pre-powered" character.
><Arcady> maybe I should post this to the hero-l list
><Crunchy> Might get some good feedback.
>
Well, firstly, you don't *have* to make a 100 pointer in GURPS and then tack
on the extra points in powers... In fact, a GURPS true Normal is only 25
points worth. Some character conceptions, especially in the GURPS IST world
require the Powers to be an integral part of the character, and the
character wouldn't be the same (personality, Mental Disadvantages, or
Skills) without the Powers.
However, for other types of characters, it would be highly appropriate to
think of what the character was like before the advent of their Powers.
Rather educational for the player, I imagine. Requiring the separate
write-up is a step I wouldn't take with my own players, really. Well, almost...
One character I helped a friend write up (for Hero) wasn't going to be aware
of his Powers on Day One, and so only picked a few. I set aside 50 points
and 50 points of Disads, to be used at my discretion. So, we wrote up the
character almost as a Super Normal, specializing in Martial Arts and
instructing skills (his day job). The character is fairly well 3D, but I
don't really think it's because of the process. More the player.
Again, I think this idea *can* work, and may help problem players with
certain conceptions. But, some players won't need it, and it just *won't*
work on a lot of character types.
- Jerry
My 2 cents.
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:52:06 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Trevor Barrie wrote:
>
> On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Robert A. West wrote:
>
> > > > the listed special effect and for attacks with Affects Desolid.
> > >
> > > Odd; my copy of the rules doesn't even mention the idea of a "listed
> > > special effect" (singular) to which the character is vulnerable.
> >
> > And how do you form such groups? In almost every case of Desolid that
> > comes to mind, such groups are defined by special effect.
>
> By special effectS, yes. The group includes all those attacks whose
> special effects should logically affect someone with that special effect
> of Desolid.
Then I don't see why you objected to my reference to the listed special
effect that affects a desolid character.
> [...]
> > OK, so I found an example of a non-special-effect group: transdimensional
> > attacks. All the rest are defined by special effect.
>
> Yes, of course. Was this meant to disagree with something I said?
Well, you were disagreeing with this very point earlier, so either you
have changed your mind, or we have been talking past one another.
>
> (Wait, how is "transdimensional" not a special effect?)
>
Transdimensional is a Power Modifier, not a special effect. Special
effects of Transdimensional might include a miniature interdimensional
portal through which the character uses the power, an avatar of the
character that appears in the other dimension, time travel, astral
projection, etc.
> > > I certainly wouldn't allow Desolid to
> > > protect a character from a Susceptibility for which they gained points, so
> > > why should it protect from an "everyman" Susc?
> >
> > I see no reason that most susceptibilities would affect most desolid
> > characters.
>
> The rules state that you get no defense against your suscpetibility.
You can, however, legitimately use a power not to be there, and desolid
without the -1/2 limitation (can't go through solid objects) is generally
a way not to be there. Suppose that a character were susceptable to
strong ultrasonics (active sonar up close, sonic attacks, certain lab
equipment), shouldn't a Silence field (bought as Darkness to Sound Group)
nullify the effect?
> Desolid isn't technically a defense, of course, but it seems to me that
> the intent of that rule is to make sure that the player can't use their
> Powers or stats to render the Susceptibility irrelevant.
By this logic, if environmental effects are everyman susceptabilities,
then Life Support also cannot protect against them, which is silly.
I would *not* award points for a susceptibility if a character had
Desolid 0 END Persistent and had attacks bought with the +2 advantage
"Affects Physical World". If the character has standard desolid, then I
would award half points if the desolid protected from it, because the
susceptability would merely force the character to flee, which *is* as
disadvantage. If the character has desolid not through objects (-1/2),
then I would award 75% of the points, since the character can be trapped,
or even 100% if I felt that the susceptibility should affect the
character when desolid.
So, go ahead, give half, quarter or even no points for the everyman
susceptabilities! ;-)
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:52:42 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> Why go so far afield? Can a vampire in the form of a bat fly across
> running water? Can he be carried by a follower? Dracula's
> coach-and-four took him across bridges, one must assume -- streams are
> not rare in Transylvania. All of these affect the disadvantage.
>
> As an interesting aside, look at the poem, Sir Gawain and the Green
> Knight. The Green Knight could not, as a being of witchcraft, cross
> running water. Instead, he pole-vaulted across the water, using his
> sword as the pole. Clearly, the poet felt that the stricture was not to
> *touch* running water.
>
> If you take the extreme form, that a character cannot cross any vertical
> surface that passes through the bed of a flowing stream, then this is one
> heck of a disadvantage, unless you are running in an arid place. The
> average distance between streams in the eastern U.S. is around a mile.
>
>
We could take this to it's full and proper extreme.
SOmewhere in space there must be millions of planets out there that have
running streams of water...
In addition, on earth, every case of plumbing, not to mention underground
bodies of water, heck, even clouds are running water...
Therefore, if a plane is made perpendicular to every spot in the
universe with running water, I stipulate that all the universe will be
touched by these planes.
Thusly, the individual with 'cannot cross running water' is incapable
of any form of motion. Even at the molecular level... Hmm... not to mention
the water that is probably within their body...
:)
:)
:)
Obviously, at some point, we have to draw lines of reasonability on
these things.
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat, #Fuzionchat, #gurps, #V&V,
and #SuperHeroChat in DALnet IRC
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:42:59 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
qts wrote:
>
> Hear hear! If your PC has an absolute defense against one of his
> Limitations, then that Limitation isn't worth any points! OK, you can
> shade that if the defense is a 1/Day thing or whatever.
If the defense is to go desolid and be ineffectual while spending END,
there is still a substantial disadvantage, IMHO. This is, of course,
where judgment is required.
>
> This brings on an interesting example: a classical vampire has the
> Physical Limitation 'Cannot Cross Running Water' (Infrequent, Fully),
> but suppose the vampire were also a Vancian magician and could turn the
> water to ice or teleport or something, as long as he had the spells
> available and memorised? I'd change the limitation to Infrequent,
> Partial. Thoughts?
Why go so far afield? Can a vampire in the form of a bat fly across
running water? Can he be carried by a follower? Dracula's
coach-and-four took him across bridges, one must assume -- streams are
not rare in Transylvania. All of these affect the disadvantage.
As an interesting aside, look at the poem, Sir Gawain and the Green
Knight. The Green Knight could not, as a being of witchcraft, cross
running water. Instead, he pole-vaulted across the water, using his
sword as the pole. Clearly, the poet felt that the stricture was not to
*touch* running water.
If you take the extreme form, that a character cannot cross any vertical
surface that passes through the bed of a flowing stream, then this is one
heck of a disadvantage, unless you are running in an arid place. The
average distance between streams in the eastern U.S. is around a mile.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
X-Sender: wbandsis@mail.westco.net
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:51:02 -0400
From: "C. Badger" <wbandsis@westco.net>
Subject: Re: Hero / Fuzion on this list (was: Re: New Powers Plug-In ()
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:05 10/22/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote:
> Fuzion has no place in this forum.
>It has it's own mailing list. There's good reason they're seperate.
>I wouldn't want to see Fuzion discusion here anymore than I would
>DC Heroes, V&V, Marvel, or even Superbabes discussion here.
> This list is for Champions/Hero discussion It is not a forum
>for generic superhero RPG discussion.
Unless the chat about any of th systems are about conversions between and to
hero...... :)
Besides some of the talk about comparing systems and possible power
tranlations I've found interesting.
-----
C. Badger
My Feet hurt and I've forgotten how to dance.
Londo
Babylon 5
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: Heromaker: Who uses it?
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:58:19 -0500
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> At 08:03 PM 10/16/97 -0500, Rick Ryker wrote:
> > Actually no. Even without the added word, the passage still
> distinctly
> > refers to Powers that affect Characteristics not Characteristic
> Points.
>
> A meaningless distinction unless it's explicitly stated to exclude the
> latter, since it's impossible to alter the latter without changing the
> former.
>
Obverse does not equal converse. The distinction is there.
It is possible to alter the former without changing the latter.
I.e., increase Characteristics without changing the total
Characteristic Points.
This is why stats given by the powers listed (Growth and Density
Increase)
do not affect Character Points or affect point totals based on
restrictions
on changes (increases/decreases) in Character Points.
-RICK
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: Ablative Energy Blasts (Was: Re: Heromaker: Who uses it?)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:12:34 -0500
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> >This sounds like a variation of BurnOut. Variable BurnOut? Ablative
> >BurnOut?
> >BurnOut is like Activation except you only roll if it successfully
> >activated
> >(so you can take both Activation and BurnOut to represent an X
> >prototype).
>
> Burnout is a little different from what I'm describing. Let's take
> an
> example for two weapons with the same Limitation level:
>
> Use Ablative 13+ Burnout
> 1st Works; acts now on 15- Works; roll 8; still good
> 2nd Roll 8; works; acts now on 14- Works; roll 11; still good
> 3rd Roll 11; works; acts now on 13- Works; roll 14; burns out
> 4th Roll 14; does not work Does not work
> 5th Roll 8; works; acts now on 12- Does not work
>
> See the difference?
>
I see the difference now. However, if I understand the way Ablative
Armor works with Defensive Powers, the EB would only decrease its
"Ablative" Activation Roll if the power actually worked. So it would
be:
1st Try: 18- Roll whatever: works. Acts now on 15-
2nd Try: 15- Roll 8: works. Now 14-
3rd Try: 14- Roll 11: works. Now 13-
4th Try: 13- Roll 14: fails. Still 13-
5th Try: 13- Roll 10: works. Now 12-
Combined with Activation and Burnout, this would provide a truly
useless "Cross Your Fingers And Hope It Works" prototype weapon.
Hmmm... (Evil GM grin)
Comments on Ablative Offensive Powers:
I suppose this would be because the electrical contacts didn't connect?
No juice equals no power? Each use reduces the available power?
Successful activation is dependent on percentage of juice available?
END Battery maybe? With special GM defined limitation "based on %
full"?
Maybe every ten precent less than full END equals -1 on the die roll?
Starting at 18- (always works) of course.
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:28:21 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: Hero / Fuzion on this list (was: Re: New Powers Plug-In ()
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 07:51 PM 10/22/97 -0400, you wrote:
>At 09:05 10/22/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote:
>> Fuzion has no place in this forum.
>>It has it's own mailing list. There's good reason they're seperate.
>>I wouldn't want to see Fuzion discusion here anymore than I would
>>DC Heroes, V&V, Marvel, or even Superbabes discussion here.
>> This list is for Champions/Hero discussion It is not a forum
>>for generic superhero RPG discussion.
>
>Unless the chat about any of th systems are about conversions between and to
>hero...... :)
>
>Besides some of the talk about comparing systems and possible power
>tranlations I've found interesting.
i agree. the list should be 'more' rather than less, even if you overlap a little. . and for the record? hero isn't more comple than fizion. . that's a new wives tale *lol*
>-----
>C. Badger
>
>My Feet hurt and I've forgotten how to dance.
> Londo
> Babylon 5
>
>
>
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 06:31:47 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Setting a power level and making sure the PC is 3D
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
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X-UID: 30
> Fortunately for me, in my game most of the players (well about half,
>I guess) are unfamiliar with the system, so rely on me for character
>creation; they give me the concept, I crunch the numbers.
Actually, this is the same situation I am faced with, except more so. Up
until recently, *none* of my players knew the system. I was the only one
with the book, to boot. So I did *all* the number crunching. That's okay.
I *like* number crunching. I'm studying to be an engineer. I'm a
math-head. In fact, I'm finishing up some Vector and Complex Ananlysis
homework right now...
Now, some of my players have access to the rules, and even Heromaker. They
are learning the system. They can write up their own characters. Good, you
say? I don't like it. 1) I like number crunching (did I mention that?).
2) I have less control over their characters. I find myself saying "no" a
lot more. Actually I tend to say, "um... how about this instead?" But the
idea is still there.
I still find it best to sit down and hash out the characters one-on-one.
And I think next time I start up a *group* of heroes, I'll have all of us
sit down, so the characters complement each other.
> The first
>thing I establish is 'What does/did the character do as a normal
>person?' Always establish a basic person before building a Super-Hero
>(or Agent or whatever). Even if the advent of power completely changes
>a character's psychological makeup, basic body structure, or whatever,
>there is a 'historical reference point' to help give a character
>conception depth.
Again, this is true in many cases, and is very useful for them. However, it
still isn't a hard rule. Some characters are based around their
powers/motivation. Some have a motivation because of their powers (mutants
who want to rid the world of anti-mutant sentiment) or their powers due to
motivation (Batman). But, in most cases, your point is valid.
- Jerry, who needs more sleep, and thus apologizes if he:
rambled,
misspelled,
or insulted (although I think I may've avoided all three)
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: Desolidification and the environment
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:33:06 -0500
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> Obviously, at some point, we have to draw lines of reasonability
> on
> these things.
>
It is precisely here that we MUST disagree.
If we allow ourselves to draw lines of reasonability then we might
*GASP*
actually agree on something, and then what would we argue about! :)
-RICK
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:40:58 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Vampires vs Water
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At 04:42 PM 10/22/97 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
>> This brings on an interesting example: a classical vampire has the
>> Physical Limitation 'Cannot Cross Running Water' (Infrequent, Fully),
>> but suppose the vampire were also a Vancian magician and could turn the
>> water to ice or teleport or something, as long as he had the spells
>> available and memorised? I'd change the limitation to Infrequent,
>> Partial. Thoughts?
>
>Why go so far afield? Can a vampire in the form of a bat fly across
>running water? Can he be carried by a follower? Dracula's
>coach-and-four took him across bridges, one must assume -- streams are
>not rare in Transylvania. All of these affect the disadvantage.
>
>As an interesting aside, look at the poem, Sir Gawain and the Green
>Knight. The Green Knight could not, as a being of witchcraft, cross
>running water. Instead, he pole-vaulted across the water, using his
>sword as the pole. Clearly, the poet felt that the stricture was not to
>*touch* running water.
>
>If you take the extreme form, that a character cannot cross any vertical
>surface that passes through the bed of a flowing stream, then this is one
>heck of a disadvantage, unless you are running in an arid place. The
>average distance between streams in the eastern U.S. is around a mile.
This brings to mind a question that's been on the back burner for quite
a while, and I'd like to get a consensus of thought.
An NPC motorcycle gang in a manuscript I'm working up is led by a
vampire (the other members aren't much less savory). Of course, as a
vampire, the leader cannot cross running water.
The question is, could he cross rivers and streams on his Harley? Could
he drive himself, or would one of the other gang members have to do the
actual driving?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:42:22 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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At 03:52 PM 10/22/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote:
> We could take this to it's full and proper extreme.
That, IMHO, is an oxymoron in that an extreme cannot be both full and
proper. ;-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: Question about Links Categories
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:59:00 -0500
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre[SMTP:shelley@mactyre.net]
> Sent: Sunday, October 19, 1997 3:12 PM
> To: champ-l@omg.org
> Subject: Question about Links Categories
>
> Greetings, all --
>
> My Champions links page (http://www.mactyre.net/scm/links.html) is
> becoming
> unwieldy -- at last count I had 136 links, and they're listed under a
> couple of categories, like PBEM games, organizations, campaign worlds,
> and
> the like. I've had a bunch of requests for me to annotate the dang
> thing,
> but I'm not really sure how I should do it. Should I keep the
> categories
> and maybe include a few comments, should I alphabetize and include a
> few
> comments, should I make value judgements as to the merit of sites,
> rank
> them, what? Obviously there are sites which are much more useful than
> others, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable with judging the quality of
> others' work.
>
> The links page is the most commonly accessed page, receiving around a
> hundred hits a day, and I'd wager that members of this list are among
> those
> using it. So what would you all like to see? Should I leave it
> alone?
> Annotate it? Rank it? If I do choose to annotate it, should I come up
> with
> a key (as I believe George Ruban suggested about a year ago), and use
> that
> to say which sites have backgrounds or character sheets or art in a
> shorthand form?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
> www.mactyre.net
>
> Your children will see the stars.
> --Robert A. Heinlein
>
The best solution is probably to let the site managers know that you
want
to annotate the links to their sites. Most sites would be glad to
provide this
if only to allow web surfers to see how their sites are different than
others'.
You will also probably have a problem with the size of the annotations.
You may want to limit the size the anotations.
If you want a quick down and dirty way to annotate sites until you can
get their respective managers to provide one for you, try looking at the
source
code for the default page on each site and skim off any META comments
that might provide keywords for indexing.
-RICK
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: Foci and Instant Cha
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:06:16 -0500
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Richard Thomas Ryker
Programmer Analyst
ComputerLand Technology Group, Inc.
> ----------
> From: Filksinger[SMTP:filkhero@usa.net]
> Reply To: Filksinger
> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 1997 3:08 PM
> To: champ-l@omg.org
> Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Cha
>
> On Tuesday, October 21, 1997 2:17 AM, Opal wrote:
> >
> >
> >I think that in this case, it was the way it was run that was in
> >error. The evil knight should have Instant changed back into
> The problem is describing the limitation involved. He can be disarmed,
> which is a disadvantage. He takes an entire phase before he gets back
> his weapon, shield, or armor (use Instant Change, wait to next phase,
> use it again). He has to turn into his unarmored form, one without any
> skills or powers in some cases, possibly in the middle of combat, in
> order to get back his devices without suffering the limitations of a
> Focus.
>
> OIHID covers part of this, but not the "can be disarmed or restrained
> like a Focus" part. Focus covers more, but it is too broad: you can't
> recover a focus by such a method.
>
> Personally, I'd use Restrainable. A 1/4 Limitation from the Hero
> Almanac 1, restrainable is used to simulate innate powers that can be
> restrained. For example, Angel has wings, with which he flies. His
> wings can be grabbed or entangled, taking the power, but they cannot
> be removed.
>
I didn't know about the Power Limitation "Restrainable".
Before 4th Edition the examples for Angel's wings used some form of
a modifed OIF to simulate the restrainable aspect of his wings.
I never did like the way that was presented.
Restrainable sounds much more reasonable as a limitation.
-RICK
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: Grey Areas
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:27:03 -0500
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> At 05:39 AM 10/15/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> > Hm. I'd thought that this was clear enough, if not from the text
> then
> >from the examples under Knockback and the Combat Example on pages
> 210-212.
> >Does someone (whether on the list, or just known by someone on the
> list)
> >actually use BODY done after defenses for Knockback?
>
> I remember getting a lecture from one of the frequent posters here
> once on
> how the wording of the passage 'clearly' (I try to avoid using the
> word
> 'clearly' with ANYTHING related to HERO :/ ) showed KB was based on
> BODY
> taken after defenses.
>
I don't bother trying to avoid "clearly". I always find an occasion
where I think it IS clear.
[Throat clearing]
I distinctly remember having to subtract dice from the _total_ KB before
defenses.
After all, I don't care how much you can soak,
if I hit you with a locomotive, you're moving, buddy.
Besides, the comic books always had superheroes being thrown around like
dolls.
If you want to take less Knock Back buy it.
I will find the proper references for another post on this subject
shortly.
I'm currently assigned out-of-house at a client site, so I don't get to
read these very often.
-RICK
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:51:35 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Robert A. West wrote:
> > By special effectS, yes. The group includes all those attacks whose
> > special effects should logically affect someone with that special effect
> > of Desolid.
>
> Then I don't see why you objected to my reference to the listed special
> effect that affects a desolid character.
Because you seemingly were (and still are) subscribing to the common
mistake that the character picks a single special effect to which they're
vulnerable and that's it, while the BBB doesn't actually say that at all.
> > (Wait, how is "transdimensional" not a special effect?)
>
> Transdimensional is a Power Modifier, not a special effect.
Never heard of it. From one of the Almanacs?
> > Desolid isn't technically a defense, of course, but it seems to me that
> > the intent of that rule is to make sure that the player can't use their
> > Powers or stats to render the Susceptibility irrelevant.
>
> By this logic, if environmental effects are everyman susceptabilities,
> then Life Support also cannot protect against them, which is silly.
When you buy Life Support you are, in effect, buying off said
susceptibilies.
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:14:29 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: No-Win Scenarios [Re: GMing Question #1]
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-Status:
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X-UID: 3
On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Robert A. West wrote:
> > Why is interfertility necessary for cooperation?
>
> I can think of no observed instances of extended interspecies cooperation
> among the anthropoid apes, yet all the anthropoid apes can form
> cooperative societies among their own kind.
Granted, but _we_ can, as you point out below. I think it's safe to say
that the species in question are closer to us than to the apes (one
actually being us and all).
> The Benobo chimpanzees, who may be our nearest relatives, have a relatively
> conflict-free society (at least, compared with other chimpanzees) in which
> copulation is the standard prelude to all manner of cooperative activity.
> I don't think it an unreasonable inference that interfertility is the first,
> instinctive, basis for cooperation.
You don't need to be interfertile with something to copulate with it,
though.
> > > . . . Chimpanzees prey on
> > > one another, and tribes of chimpanzees fight over resources. Why would it
> > > be any different with the two species in question?
> >
> > Because the species involved are sentient, and consequently capable of
> > being held responsible for their actions.
>
> Well, you assume a lot in that sentence. Is sentience a binary state, or
> a continuum?
Yes.
Probably.:)
At any rate, you referred to the action as "justifiable", which I thought
implied that you agreed that it was possible to judge the action on a
moral basis. One doesn't usually refer to the actions of animals as
justifiable or not; the concept just doesn't apply.
> We are not accustomed to thinking of domesticating animals as a technology,
> but it was a *huge* advance, so much so that it constitutes part of the
> "Paleolithic Revolution." Was extended interspecies cooperation even a
> possible concept yet?
Who's to say? A lot depends on how intelligent you think these beings
were, but I'm inclined to think they weren't significantly less clever
than us, if at all. Enormous differences in level of knowledge, of course,
but the idea that people - even ones different from ourselves - have a
right to exist is basic enough that I don't think it's dependent on any
technology.
> Consider how little we know about the *religion* (as opposed to the
> literary myths) of the Greeks and Romans. We know next-to-nothing about
> neolithic religion, nothing about paleolithic religion, and we don't even
> know if eolithic religion existed.
Heck, I didn't even know the _term_ "eolithic" existed.:)
> > > Survival is the first, and only, law of nature.
> >
> > True, but not really relevant IMO.
>
> Extremely relevant, IMO.
Nature is completely amoral. When discussing whether something is right or
wrong, its laws therefore don't apply.
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:17:27 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Non-Stereotypical Mi
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On 21 Oct 1997, Opal wrote:
> Finally, stereotypes are usefull. Every character can't be fully
> developed and deep. Some just need to be quickly described and
> understood. No one complains when yet another greedy business
> tycoon, racist neo-nazi, or bigoted redneck is cast as a villain -
I've certainly heard people complain about those stereotypes -
occasionally the first, definitely the third. (Haven't seen many people
stand up for malligned neo-nazis, though:), although over-use of the
stereotype can draw complaints of boredom.)
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Cha
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:17:53 -0700
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On 10/22/97 6:36 PM, Rick Ryker wrote:
<snip>
>I didn't know about the Power Limitation "Restrainable".
>Before 4th Edition the examples for Angel's wings used some form of
>a modifed OIF to simulate the restrainable aspect of his wings.
>I never did like the way that was presented.
>Restrainable sounds much more reasonable as a limitation.
Restrainable is from the Hero System Almanac 1. I liked it overall,
and I included virtually all the rules and suggestions applicable to
superhero games into my campaigns, including the spirit rules.
Restrainable was one of my favorites.
Filksinger
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:22:54 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: What a Timeline is truly good for
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On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote:
> >> You don't know what you are talking about here. I have the advantage of
> >> looking over Shelley's shoulder when she is running the G3 games, and she
> >> doesn't railroad players into any action. There are times when the
> >> players need to be pointed in a certain direction to further the plot.
> >
> >By definition, this _is_ railroading. Whether you consider it acceptable
> >or not is, of course, a matter of play style.
>
> This is another case of just not understanding how to run a PBEM game, I
> think, or at least not doing so according to any PBEM I've seen, run, or
> played in.
Oh, by all means, enlighten me then. How is PBEM role-playing so
completely different from face-to-face role-playing that terminology has
to be completely redefined?
> That being said -- I don't think there's a GM alive who hasn't had to help
> out their players with an extra clue or two when they aren't picking up on
> things -- if you're running a *storyline* you have a plot, by definition.
But of course, GMing an RPG doesn't _necessarily_ entail running a
plot/set storyline.
> If you're a competent GM, then you can roll with the changes. If you're
> not, then you can't. Guiding a plot isn't the same thing as beating your
> players over the head with it.
The only difference is your point of view. "Railroading" and "guiding"
have different connotations, but the denotations are the same.
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:24:12 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: RE: No-Win Scenarios [Re: GMing Question #1]
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On Thu, 16 Oct 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >> Well. If we are descended from Cro-Magnon,
> >
> >As I understand it, we _are_ Cro-Magnons.
>
> Only the Americans. The rest are Homo Sapiens. ;-]
Wait, I thought Cro-Magnons _were_ Homo Sapiens. Am I out of date here?
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:28:36 -0700
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On 10/22/97 2:36 PM, Robert A. West wrote:
<snip>
>
>Why go so far afield? Can a vampire in the form of a bat fly across
>running water? Can he be carried by a follower? Dracula's
>coach-and-four took him across bridges, one must assume -- streams
are
>not rare in Transylvania. All of these affect the disadvantage.
In the book "The Dracula Tapes", by Fred Saberhagen, Dracula was quite
pleased with trains. He liked the fact that in a train he could travel
more quickly than on horseback, and that he felt not even a tug when
going over running water. He had found that crossing running water had
previously required a coach, because a strong horse had a tendency to
falter badly while crossing, if it was carrying him.
I recommend the book. Dracula, in this book, isn't a villain. He is,
as he explains, the injured party. _Everything_ described in the
original book is explained conveniently by Dracula. The thing I liked
most was that his explainations were far more reasonable than the
original in some cases.
>As an interesting aside, look at the poem, Sir Gawain and the Green
>Knight. The Green Knight could not, as a being of witchcraft, cross
>running water. Instead, he pole-vaulted across the water, using his
>sword as the pole. Clearly, the poet felt that the stricture was not
to
>*touch* running water.
I had been reading a fantasy novel, whose title I can't remember,
where there were elite soldiers who were trained for, among other
things, "wizard's war". This included such things as using traps,
because traps cannot be found by Mind Scan.
This got me to thinking, and I have now determined why magic is
rumored to be unable to cross running water. If you have to fight
someone who needs Gestures and Incantations to fight, such as many
wizards, deep running water is a good defense. He can't fight and
swim, can't fight while having trouble standing, and with luck, he
won't be able to do Incantations if he falls, at least until he stops
choking.
Filksinger
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:50:01 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
Subject: Re: Normal Characteristic Maxaima
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On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >> I agree, the last seems strange -- buy your STR 0 END, and it can be as
> >> high as you want it? But the write-up for Defender definitely follows
> >> this course, paying only standard costs for his OIF Characteristics.
> >
> >Defender would hardly be the only officially-published character to have
> >mistakes in his character sheet, though.
>
> But would he be the only one actually in the BBB?
No, although it's the most obvious error. That '+10" Superleap (9" total)'
on Jaguar's sheet can't be right, and there are a couple of math errors on
Stalker. There are probably others. Nothing that leaps off the page,
though.
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:51:54 -0300 (ADT)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: No-Win Scenarios [Re: GMing Question #1]
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On Thu, 16 Oct 1997, Mark Lemming wrote:
> Trevor Barrie wrote:
> > > Where would a moral context come from that would override an
> > instinctive question of survival?
> >
> > The same place moral contexts always come from: the person evaluating
> > the action.
>
> Or "History is written by the winner."
I don't see the connection.
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:04:53 +1000
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Subject: Re: Hero / Fuzion on this list (was: Re: New Powers Plug-In ()
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At 06:33 PM 10/22/97 -0700, you wrote:
>On Wednesday, October 22, 1997 6:00 PM, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
>wrote:
>
>
><snip>
>>i agree. the list should be 'more' rather than less, even if you
>overlap a little.
>
>Agreed. Reference to other systems should not be forbidden. If
>Champions is an integral part of the discussion, then it should be
>allowed.
>
>Otherwise, we would run into a situation where we couldn't talk about
>an optional rule in Champions, if the rule was derived from a
>different game.
>
>> . and for the record? hero isn't more comple than fizion. . that's a
>new wives tale *lol*
>
>
>Not more complete? Hero has a considerably larger and more
>customizable powers system than Fuzion. The fact that you can port in
>powers from Champions is meaningless, as those powers do not come from
>Fuzion. If you need to use another system to fill in the holes in
>Fuzion, then, at least in that area (Powers), the other system must be
>more complete.
>
>Filksinger
>
>
doh! typo, i meant 'not more complex'. . .
From: Egyptoid@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:50:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Re: New Powers Plug-In (
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In a message dated 10/22/97 7:58:45 AM, jad@bcc.louisville.edu wrote:
>there has
>been a history of knee-jerk reactionism to Fuzion by devoted Hero gamers.
Perhaps it's justified because Fuzion is so mediocre?
and Hero works so well?
X-Sender: scm@mail.aci.net
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:19:38 -0700
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: What a Timeline is truly good for
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At 11:22 PM 10/22/97 -0300, Trevor wrote:
>Oh, by all means, enlighten me then. How is PBEM role-playing so
>completely different from face-to-face role-playing that terminology has
>to be completely redefined?
Well, I have tried explaining, and since it's not working, I think I have a
better idea. Why don't you announce to the list or r.g.f.s-h that you want
to run a Champions PBEM game. Wait for the flood of e-mail to subside.
Select four or so players you think will do really well and that are
prolific writers. Start running a game.
You can do what I did -- put out a two-three page turn every Sunday night,
and let the players send you responses (conversation with PCs and NPCs)
until Thursday or Friday (by that time it should be over twenty pages).
Have them send you a "turn response" every Friday as well -- that would be
stuff they're doing outside of the main plot, that you let them write on
their own. Compile these and make them available online for the players to
review. Send out a new turn the next Sunday. Repeat for one year, taking
breaks for major events such as Christmas and finals.
If you have any questions about how to do this, take a look at
http://www.mactyre.net/scm/pbem/pbem.html and you'll see an example of how
I did just that in my first PBEM game. In just less than one year (with a
couple months off for breaks), I ended up with fifty turns. I had
turnover, like any PBEM will, and I dealt with it to the best of my
ability. I dealt with players not picking up on clues to the best of my
ability. <shrug> I didn't hear any complaints about the way I ran the
game from the players, though.
>> That being said -- I don't think there's a GM alive who hasn't had to help
>> out their players with an extra clue or two when they aren't picking up on
>> things -- if you're running a *storyline* you have a plot, by definition.
>
>But of course, GMing an RPG doesn't _necessarily_ entail running a
>plot/set storyline.
I run both FTF and PBEM Champions, and there is a big, big difference. But
you know, perhaps my skills are just grossly limited, and you wouldn't have
any trouble with it. Heck, no telling till you try, Trevor. I'd be
interested to see how it worked out, myself. Why don't you make your
announcement for the game, and let us all know in three months how it's
going? I'd be more than willing to forward my waiting list of forty+ people
to you just to help you get started. Just say the word.
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
www.mactyre.net
Your children will see the stars.
--Robert A. Heinlein
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Hero / Fuzion on this list (was: Re: New Powers Plug-In ()
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:25:13 -0700
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On 10/22/97 8:43 PM, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>doh! typo, i meant 'not more complex'. . .
That's a relief. There were times when I thought you were off base,
but this time I wasn't sure you were in the stadium. I was downright
afraid to ask what your justifications were for _that_.<G>
Filksinger
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:21:59 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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Brian Wong wrote:
>
> We could take this to it's full and proper extreme.
> SOmewhere in space there must be millions of planets out there that have
> running streams of water...
>
> Obviously, at some point, we have to draw lines of reasonability on
> these things.
No argument there. Of course, the GM's view of reason and the player's
view will differ in detail. Eventually, those differences will become
vitally important in the middle of a scenario. This is why I prefer to
do the rules lawyering up front, rather than on the fly.
In the instant case, because of the difficulties outlined, I would prefer
to point a vampire as having a per segment Body Susceptability to contact
with running water in naturally-occuring streams. Thus, flying over the
stream, or passing over it via a Change Environment/Freezing Cold spell
is well defined and acceptable.
I have approved some disadvantages about which I had doubts, but warned
they player that I will review the character after ten runs. If I find
that the disadvantage is not worth the points, then another must be
chosen. In fact, IMHO, a GM has both the right and the duty to
periodically review all disads and limitations to see how they are
actually playing.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:39:34 +1000
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Subject: Re: What a Timeline is truly good for
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At 09:19 PM 10/22/97 -0700, you wrote:
>I run both FTF and PBEM Champions, and there is a big, big difference. But
>you know, perhaps my skills are just grossly limited, and you wouldn't have
>any trouble with it. Heck, no telling till you try, Trevor. I'd be
>interested to see how it worked out, myself. Why don't you make your
>announcement for the game, and let us all know in three months how it's
>going? I'd be more than willing to forward my waiting list of forty+ people
>to you just to help you get started. Just say the word.
>
>Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
>www.mactyre.net
>
>Your children will see the stars.
>--Robert A. Heinlein
>
okay, the "i've done it you haven't" argument is invalid. If your saying
that 'this is how i do it' then fine, but i'd tactfully suggest that that
sort of non-logic is pointless in a general discussion. I might have a
game in which beating the crap out of my players bring good role playing,
but what the hell does that prove?
nothing.
Please people, let's try and generalise? we all have our own experiance,
hell, i'd say i out- gm you all, but what does it matter? The idea here
is to put forth general rules of thumb which are a good idea, not
harp on about our own experiences in a way which makes any discussion
pointless.
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:12:34 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: Champions too complex? Was Fuzion new powers...
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At 10:51 AM 10/22/97 -0700, you wrote:
> This is what I've always told people... Not that anyone's ever believed me.
>
>Personally I find champions simple and Fuzion complex...
>
> Too many diferent types of points... cunfusing explanations, conflicting
>rules systems...
>
precisely. . .it's a case of an organises system built along with
several strong themes as opposed to what could only be described
as a haphazard mess. .
>--
>Rook
>Also known as Arcady on #herochat, #Fuzionchat, #gurps, #V&V,
>and #SuperHeroChat in DALnet IRC
>
>My Champions Webpage is at:
>http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
>
>Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
>http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
>
>
>
X-Sender: scm@mail.aci.net
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:33:30 -0700
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
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At 12:45 AM 10/23/97 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
>Shelley's description of an RPG reminds me of a pot-luck party: everyone
>brings their favorite dish, and the host provides the plates, utensils,
>and a few essential dishes.
LOL! About what you'd expect from a minister's daughter, I imagine. I
spent half my childhood at church potlucks!
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
www.mactyre.net
Your children will see the stars.
--Robert A. Heinlein
X-Sender: scm@mail.aci.net
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:50:06 -0700
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: What a Timeline is truly good for
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At 03:39 PM 10/23/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>okay, the "i've done it you haven't" argument is invalid.
Oh, for Pete's sake. One more time....
I've been lucky enough to have some wonderful conversations with other PBEM
GMs about how we run our games, what we do to further plots, how we
interact with players. (As an aside, I'm one of the most "liberal" in
terms of plot and interaction, which I found interesting, especially in
light of this discussion). And I've never had a problem communicating with
them -- we all have a common frame of reference, even though we run things
very differently. If you haven't run a PBEM game, you really don't know
how it works. That's not a value judgement, just a statement of fact. You
can always make some educated guesses, but it's not the same thing. Do the
work for a couple of months and you'll see what I mean. I love talking to
other PBEM GMs, so talk to me about it, too, once you've done it for a while.
Here's simpler example. Say you've never had chocolate ice cream, but you
have had vanilla. Someone's trying to describe chocolate to you. Well,
you know it's cold, and you know that it will melt in your mouth, but the
actual taste isn't going to be the same and it won't make sense until
you've tried it. And this is kind of like Champions, actually. You know
what a face to face game is, and how you like it to be run. And you know
that it uses a particular system, like Champions. However, the mode of
running a PBEM game is, by definition, vastly different than playing around
a table (or, in my case, the living room floor), and thus it's a whole
different ball game. Heck, GM styles are completely different across the
FTF board, so adding PBEM increases variability that much more, all under
the wonderful umbrella of Champions games.
Also, if anyone's interested in starting a PBEM game and isn't sure how
exactly it works, let me know and I'd be happy to have you lurk for a turn
or two and you can see how I handle things.
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
www.mactyre.net
Your children will see the stars.
--Robert A. Heinlein
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:36:47 -0700
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On Wednesday, October 22, 1997 11:10 PM, Robert A. West wrote:
>Trevor Barrie wrote:
<snip>
>> > > (Wait, how is "transdimensional" not a special effect?)
>> >
>> > Transdimensional is a Power Modifier, not a special effect.
>>
>> Never heard of it. From one of the Almanacs?
>
>Hero System Rules, page 97.
It's also in the errata to the BBB, which is floating around the web
somewhere (I think I have it on my machine), and in Mystic Masters, a
book on running superhero sorcerers.
Filksinger
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:45:06 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Time Lines for Campaign Worlds
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After my counterproductive exchange with Shelley, I have sat this one
out for a while, on the tbeory that you learn more by listening than by
speaking. I have found myself thinking of an RPG in terms of a dinner
party.
Shelley's description of an RPG reminds me of a pot-luck party: everyone
brings their favorite dish, and the host provides the plates, utensils,
and a few essential dishes. My style could be compared to a formal
party, where the dishes have been carefully selected, there is a wine for
each course, and the entire experience has been conceived of as a
coherent whole.
Neither of these types of party is better or worse than the other, and
the world would be poorer if there were only one type. There are rules
of conduct for each. If you are attending a pot-luck party, you are
expected to bring something for consumption that evening, but to do this
at a formal party (unless specially requested by the host) would be an
insult to the host's preparations. If you attend a formal party, you are
expected to reciprocate to the best of your ability by holding a party of
your own.
Now, take the group that I game with in Philadelphia. There are six of
us who have been gaming together since 1979. All of us are experienced
GMs, and three of us are currently running our campaigns in an informal
sort of rotation. Each campaign has a timeline and other associated
background material, some of which is for the GM's use alone, and some of
which is for the players' use. I believe that these timelines enhance
our roleplaying experiences.
My Champions campaign is set in current time with super powers just
appearing. The players' copy of the timeline is very simple, since the
Point of First Divergence was the opening day of the campaign. The
GM-only timeline shows events in the past that were influenced by supers
whose powers were concealed or discounted by the mainstream press, and
these events are being revealed in play. I have explicitly restricted
character origins and disadvantages to suit. Some characters' origins
involve the secret use of powers before Day One, and these have impelled
changes to the GM-only timeline, but the rule of no reliably attested use
of powers prior to 10/1/95 is inviolate.
My PrinceCon FRP campaign is set in the World of Rachlem, which has an
elaborate history and a peculiar social structure. Much of the history
of the world is wrapped up with this structure, and it would be difficult
for most players to contribute to it without revealing things that are
better revealed in actual play. The players *have* made use of the
timeline in play, and have had fun comparing events noted on tomb walls
and ancient ruins with events known from the timeline for the same
period.
Ken's Atlantean campaign is entitled, "The Magic Returns." We were given
at the outset a description and history of the world as our characters
knew it, which we realized, on metagaming grounds, was a tissue of lies,
since it omitted any mention of magic or monsters. Nevertheless, it tells
us what our characters *think* happened, so that we can be appropriately
astonished, skeptical or both when we discover the truth.
Scott's AD&D campaign dates back to original D&D. He runs the campaign
until the power level gets untenable, then declares a disaster and
restarts the campaign fifty, a hundred or two hundred years in the
future. The timeline includes the exploits of PCs in prior incarnations
of the campaign, GM-written filler between the close of one incarnation
and the start of the next, and the GM-written history from before the
start of the campaign. The filler between incarnations is subject to
discussion with the players whose characters survived (and usually
caused) the disaster that closed the campaign, but the other players have
little or no influence on it. This filler generally explains, at least
in part, the new social order of the new campaign.
Steve is toying with the idea of running a Fantasy Hero campaign. I
assume from his comments that, if he does, he will have a fairly complete
setting in mind, and will develop both a real and a public timeline to
suit.
The point of all this is that we each get plenty of chance to showcase
our creativity in our own campaigns, and are more than content to allow
the others to showcase theirs. I would feel very odd if Ken asked me
about what the history of his campaign should look like. I much prefer
that he tell me that part -- it *is* history after all, and then I will
do what I think is in character, given the beliefs and experiences that
are implied by the history that I am given.
I suppose that I view a campaign setting as a pre-existing thing, that
represents a personal expression and investment of time and emotion on
the part of the GM. When PCs are invited in, they change that setting,
but only in a forward-going direction (absent time travel, of course).
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:49:28 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Minimum costs
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>
> >>>>> "RH" == Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> writes:
>
> RH> the next question is minimum costs. Many powers have a minimum
> RH> cost associated with the power (Flight, Teleport, Tunneling, Flash
> RH> Defence, etc). The argument at the moment is whether the minimum cost is
> RH> before or after the application of power advantages. Any comments?
>
> "Minimum costs" are for the base power before any advantages.
>
I absolutely agree. Of course, minimum costs can be waived with good
reason, and a lot of published characters have less than minimum amounts
of some power.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 01:51:09 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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Trevor Barrie wrote:
>
>
> Because you seemingly were (and still are) subscribing to the common
> mistake that the character picks a single special effect to which they're
> vulnerable and that's it, while the BBB doesn't actually say that at all.
Good Lord! I never intended anything so wooden, and never dreamed that
anyone would think that I did. Most often, a single special effect will
either produce an appropriately diverse group of attacks, or it stands as
a convenient shorthand and is understood as such. In other cases, the
class might not be conveniently so described.
Also, understand that "special effect" may be fairly broad (such as
magic) or fairly narrow (such as magical lightning bolts). Obviously, a
broad special effect description is more likely to satisfactorily cover
the ground, or nearly so.
>
> > > (Wait, how is "transdimensional" not a special effect?)
> >
> > Transdimensional is a Power Modifier, not a special effect.
>
> Never heard of it. From one of the Almanacs?
Hero System Rules, page 97.
>
> When you buy Life Support you are, in effect, buying off said
> susceptibilies.
If the book phrased it that way, I might agree with you. I think that it
is equally justifiable to say that you are buying a power that
counteracts the susceptibility, which is now worth no points. Of course,
it wasn't worth any points to begin with.
In any event, allowing a character to obtain, as a side-effect of
Desolid, one two or even three 3-point powers strikes me as no threat to
balance.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 01:57:55 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Ablative
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Actually, as soon as I saw the power limitation "Ablative"'s writeup
I didn't like it, so I changed it. At least for defenses such as normal
PD and armour.
A character who takes the ablative limitation on armour will have
just that; armour that gets chipped away when hit. Every attack that
hits the armour needs a roll for location (ignore damage modifiers for
location if you don't use 'em), and the BODY of the attack takes away
that much armour in that location. This way, the overall coverage still
takes some time to be blown away, but an attacker who notices the
ablative nature can target exposed sections (if (s)he is a good enough
shot to make the attempt worthwhile....)
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 02:23:40 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: New Powers Plug-In (
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Egyptoid@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 10/22/97 7:58:45 AM, jad@bcc.louisville.edu wrote:
> >there has
> >been a history of knee-jerk reactionism to Fuzion by devoted Hero gamers.
>
> Perhaps it's justified because Fuzion is so mediocre?
> and Hero works so well?
Now, now, let's don't start up again... >:-)>
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 02:51:50 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Setting a power level and making sure the PC is 3D
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Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>
> ><Arcady> one think I really liked about GURPS Supers was an odd rule it
> >had for character creation
> ><Arcady> in GURPS, you have 100 points, or 500 in Supers.
> ><Arcady> so to make a Super you first made a 100 point normal PC
> ><Crunchy> right. So make a 100 point character, THEN tack on the
> >powers.
> ><Arcady> then you had 400 more points to add powers...
> ><Arcady> yeah
> ><Arcady> it forces 3d characters
> ><Crunchy> That can be done in Champs, too.
<rest of conversation snipped>
> Well, firstly, you don't *have* to make a 100 pointer in GURPS and then tack
> on the extra points in powers... In fact, a GURPS true Normal is only 25
> points worth. Some character conceptions, especially in the GURPS IST world
> require the Powers to be an integral part of the character, and the
> character wouldn't be the same (personality, Mental Disadvantages, or
> Skills) without the Powers.
<rest of dissertation snipped>
Fortunately for me, in my game most of the players (well about half,
I guess) are unfamiliar with the system, so rely on me for character
creation; they give me the concept, I crunch the numbers. The first
thing I establish is 'What does/did the character do as a normal
person?' Always establish a basic person before building a Super-Hero
(or Agent or whatever). Even if the advent of power completely changes
a character's psychological makeup, basic body structure, or whatever,
there is a 'historical reference point' to help give a character
conception depth.
It's the same as (and, in fact can include) asking why and how a
character gained super powers (or entered the Secret Service, or joined
the Orc War...), rather than just having a new character appear with no
personal explaination or apparent motivation. Not that the other
characters (or even players) know, but both the player in question and
the GM should always know where the character came from, how (s)he got
there, and why (s)he is motivated to do what (s)he does.
I find that this process is not a function of any system, rather a
result of a gaming group's desire for depth of character. Fuzion even
has a whole 'Origin Path', but it won't make any difference in character
depth if the player doesn't care.
-Capt. Spith
--
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is
long
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong
-'Wierd Al'
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 97 11:47:27 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Steve McGinness)
Subject: Comic book martial artists....
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Martial artists have, for a long time, been my particular dislike about
Champions. Now there are comic book martial artists that are very powerful
and able to sock it out with the superpowered types, but they are virtualy
then superpowered in their own right. There is a loss of flavour attached to
it.
I have come up with a variety of house rules to try to make them more to my
liking and some work, most don't :-) but the ablative discussions caused me
to remember a failed experiment.
I thought that perhaps the martial artists would benefit (concept wise) by
having an ablative style defence to represent the blows which glance past or
miss altogether. The ablative modifier would enforce the fact that this can
be done for only so long before your luck runs out. I never got it to be
cost effective, so my martial artists still went for unfeasably high DEX and
PD despite it being contrary to a strict interpretation of their concept,
and allowed because it helped them remain competitive in the game.
I think the concept of the ablative defence came indirectly from the SDC
concept in Heroes Unlimited (I apologise unreservedly for using those swear
words on this list! :-) but it's true).
Anyone have any similar ideas or an idea on how to make my idea work??
Stephen
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 05:52:31 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
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At 12:51 AM 10/19/97 -0400, Len Carpenter wrote:
>Tribal.com is a sham and a tax dodge that would make many hardworking
>con artists squirm with
>unease. John McAfee's condescending and abusive attitude toward
>Paula Giese, who has the
>courage and common sense to point out the "emporor has no clothes,"
>makes John McAfee a lousy
>businessman in addition to being the patron of racist operation.
>
>That Tribal Voice, supposedly an educational website, has also
>provided links to sites devoted to
>tasteless adult material as examples of "Indian humor" is also
>disturbing. I'm no prude or advocate of
>censorship, but I do think there are things on the Web kids should
>not be readily guided toward.
>
>This is one consumer that McAfee Associates has alienated forever.
I tend to agree. (I'll have to check things out for myself to finalize
any sort of decision, though.)
>There are several posters to this mailing list who owe Tim Gilberg an
>apology.
I don't recall saying anything derisive, but if I said anything that was
perceived as out of line, I do apologize.
I think now some people will be able to recognize why so many people
were upset over Dean Shomshak's derisive comments in The Ultimate Super
Mage about people of religious belief.
PS: For some reason my postings have been bouncing back to me after
about 3 days instead of going to the list (this one is a re-send), so if
things seem a tad behind please bear with me.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 05:53:51 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Ablative
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At 01:57 AM 10/23/97 -0700, Captain Spith wrote:
>Actually, as soon as I saw the power limitation "Ablative"'s writeup
>I didn't like it, so I changed it. At least for defenses such as normal
>PD and armour.
> A character who takes the ablative limitation on armour will have
>just that; armour that gets chipped away when hit. Every attack that
>hits the armour needs a roll for location (ignore damage modifiers for
>location if you don't use 'em), and the BODY of the attack takes away
>that much armour in that location. This way, the overall coverage still
>takes some time to be blown away, but an attacker who notices the
>ablative nature can target exposed sections (if (s)he is a good enough
>shot to make the attempt worthwhile....)
I agree that this is a better way to do it in games that use Hit
Locations. For those that don't, the way it's written is the way to do it.
---
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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 05:58:40 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
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At 10:51 PM 10/22/97 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>> > (Wait, how is "transdimensional" not a special effect?)
>>
>> Transdimensional is a Power Modifier, not a special effect.
>
>Never heard of it. From one of the Almanacs?
BBB, page 97, second column. (As though you're probably not going to
get ten responses before mine to point this out.)
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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 06:03:08 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Vampires vs Water
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At 07:28 PM 10/22/97 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>This got me to thinking, and I have now determined why magic is
>rumored to be unable to cross running water. If you have to fight
>someone who needs Gestures and Incantations to fight, such as many
>wizards, deep running water is a good defense. He can't fight and
>swim, can't fight while having trouble standing, and with luck, he
>won't be able to do Incantations if he falls, at least until he stops
>choking.
I think that the explanation (at least, the real-world explanation) is a
little simpler, but somewhat more esoteric, than that.
Though we don't see the connection much in our own society, running
water is a traditional symbol of the flow of life. Vampires are supposedly
a form of "undead," and so they cannot "cross the flow of life," any more
than a beam of darkness can penetrate light (remember, I'm talking
real-world here).
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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 06:29:43 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Foci and Instant Cha
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At 09:10 PM 10/22/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>I didn't know about the Power Limitation "Restrainable".
>>Before 4th Edition the examples for Angel's wings used some form of
>>a modifed OIF to simulate the restrainable aspect of his wings.
>>I never did like the way that was presented.
>>Restrainable sounds much more reasonable as a limitation.
>>
>In some very poor cases, OAF was used, too. I think restrainable is sort of
>the difference between Accessible and Inaccessible... that would explain why
>it is worth -1/2 as well. I think I would go with this to model the Black
>Knight's new weapons... That, and Incantations on his Instant Change.
Restrainable basically means that it can be Entangled, or Grabbed and
held, but unlike a Focus it cannot be taken away.
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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 06:33:57 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Normal Characteristic Maxaima
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At 11:50 PM 10/22/97 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> >> I agree, the last seems strange -- buy your STR 0 END, and it can be as
>> >> high as you want it? But the write-up for Defender definitely follows
>> >> this course, paying only standard costs for his OIF Characteristics.
>> >
>> >Defender would hardly be the only officially-published character to have
>> >mistakes in his character sheet, though.
>>
>> But would he be the only one actually in the BBB?
>
>No, although it's the most obvious error. That '+10" Superleap (9" total)'
>on Jaguar's sheet can't be right, and there are a couple of math errors on
>Stalker. There are probably others. Nothing that leaps off the page,
>though.
On Jaguar and Stalker, these are math errors. An error in the
understanding of the rules -- in the rulebook itself, no less -- is an
entirely different magnitude of things.
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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:08:07 -0400 (EDT)
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From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Villain Help
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I wanted to ask the list for suggestions for powers. The character is a
villianous mastermind whose sfx is based on "real" stage magic, that is
gimmicks that looks at least superfically like stage magic but have real
occult power. Does anyone have any suggestions?
I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
But it sure feels good!
Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:35:26 -0400 (EDT)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists....
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>Martial artists have, for a long time, been my particular dislike about
>Champions. Now there are comic book martial artists that are very powerful
>and able to sock it out with the superpowered types, but they are virtualy
>then superpowered in their own right. There is a loss of flavour attached to
>it.
True. Comic book martial artists tend to fall into two categories: those
able to soak lots of damage because they're superhuman, and those that are
virtually unhittable (but go down the moment they are hit). Most fall into
the second category, but there are a few from the first.
>I have come up with a variety of house rules to try to make them more to my
>liking and some work, most don't :-) but the ablative discussions caused me
>to remember a failed experiment.
>
>I thought that perhaps the martial artists would benefit (concept wise) by
>having an ablative style defence to represent the blows which glance past or
>miss altogether.
I think this would be better represented by Damage Reduction with a Skill
Roll - like a DEX roll. This better simulates the 'roll with the punch' or
'deflect the blow' than Ablative, IMHO. Besides, with Ablative the defense
will always work the first time...
>The ablative modifier would enforce the fact that this can
>be done for only so long before your luck runs out. I never got it to be
>cost effective, so my martial artists still went for unfeasably high DEX and
>PD despite it being contrary to a strict interpretation of their concept,
>and allowed because it helped them remain competitive in the game.
Define 'unreasonably high' DEX and PD. Let's face it, having a 3-4 CV
advantage isn't enough to keep you in a fight if you've only got 8-12 PD. As
you say above, they sort of need it to remain competitive in the game. Lots
of energy projectors in comics don't have jack for defenses either, but that
doesn't stop Champs players from buying forcefields and the like - which
aren't all that common, really. Not rare, but I'd say at least 50%, if not
more, of energy projectors don't have exotic defenses (Cyclops, Havok,
Jubilee, Gambit) but instead rely on cover, mobility, agility, and body armor.
What you've got to do as a GM is to _restrict_ everybody else's DEX to lower
levels. Martial Artists built to 'realistic' standards will get creamed
every time by those DEX 18 Bricks. Ask the other players (and NPC villians)
why they should, under their character concept, get more than 10-12 DEX.
Suddenly that 23 DEX martial artist isn't looking so bad - especially with
the combat levels he'll have. With a 6-7 CV advantage, they won't grumble so
much about crappy PD.
On another note: The unreasonable damage dished out by Champs martial
artists. It's often on the Brick-level, which shouldn't be. Check the Green
Dragon write-up in 'Watchers of the Dragon'. Tell me he couldn't tear his
way right out of a standard jail cell.
Solution? Make all 'normal' (non-killing, non-NND) martial arts maneuvers
have 'Reduced Penetration'. So Joe MA with 20 STR could do a straight 4D6
punch, or haul out his Offensive Strike and do 8D6 Reduced Penetration.
Little change in effectiveness against low-defense humans, makes MA-vs.-MA
combat last longer (as it should), and renders MAs less effective vs. Bricks
- as it should be. Also keeps Martial Artists from punching through brick
walls on a regular basis (buy the board-busting trick as an HA if you want it).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, I feel pretty good."
"Yeah, me too. I've got a real positive attitude."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
X-Originating-IP: [206.88.2.1]
From: "Todd Hanson" <badtodd@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Setting a power limit
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:04:34 PDT
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Rook says:
(conversation from herochat about having the PCs create a 'normal' and
then adding powers)
We have done this in our games, and it worked so well that it has become
our standard. Each player is required to build their character as they
would be in their 'normal' identity. We didnt set a 'hard' limit on how
many points they had to spend on their normal ID (although we did set a
MINIMUM). They could use how ever many points they needed to fill out
skills, contacts, perks etc that the PC would have as a normal. When
they (and the GM) were happy with the normal, they were allowed to spend
the remainder of their points on superpowers.
This made a big difference in how the campaign went. Previous to this,
at least half of the players always built characters that were useless
outside of combat. If the game wasn't at least headed towards combat,
these players sat around being bored and disrupting the game for the
people who were trying to do anything 'noncombat'. As a result, the
noncombat stuff tended to get glossed over so we could fast forward to
the combat. (I had just joined the group... I didnt have much control
over this... YET)
After we started using the above method, several of the combat-only
players begin to actually participate in the non-combat portions of the
game. Now that they had skills that were actually useful, they found
that they enjoyed the investigation/roleplaying parts of the game as
well. This has helped move the game into more roleplaying and less hack
and slash.
Todd
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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:18:24 EDT
Subject: Cromags vs. Neanderthals
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-7,12-13,15-16,19-20,23-24,31-32,43-47
From: dman666@juno.com (Darren B Hansen)
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> Survival is the first, and only, law of nature.
>
> True, but not really relevant IMO.
>
>Extremely relevant, IMO.
Okay, This statement must be examined. We're dealing with a situation
where 2 groups are attempting to survive in a "hostile" environment.
Forget everything you know about how people think, becasue unless you've
lived through a "survival situation" you can't really understand the mind
set involved.
Now, grooup A is the Cromags and group B are the Neans (I refuse to waste
tons of time typing those terms each time I need them!!)
Cooperation is not an option for these groups, survival procludes it on
any but the most grudging level (We wont fight you and you wont fight us
while we drink from the same water hole. Ancient cooperation in action!)
Now, one group might feasably struggle with the other, and possibly be
integrated (If there was an imbalance of males to females, then females
would be "kept" after a conflict with another group.)
Now, if some Cromags smashed up a group of Neans then it's entirely
possible some Nean woman was kept by some Cromag who didn't have a mate.
There you have your possibility of inter breeding, now it's a waste to
think (but they're not compatible) because the tribes genetic specialist
hasn't gotten that far in his studies yet so she doesn't know!! Now when
you start mixing DNA you can end up with some pretty scary things, as we
all know.
So, to answer the whimsical thought "could this happen" Yes it most
assuradly could. To answer the scientific question "could we as a
species be the resultant offspring" Yes we could. To answer the all
important gaminig question "is this important" YES, because it makes for
great plot.....What if when you mix a Cromag and a Nean you get a
Para-Normal? Maybe not active powers, but the passive gene for it?
Okay, now as more and more people with the Para-Normal (P gene) factor
interbreed, the gene becomes stronger. Occassionally through history
Active Paras have come up and as time wore on more and more until we have
the population we have now in the 20th centruy of Super Heroes
EVERYWHERE!!!!!
Just a thought!
**DMAN
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:36:14 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Minimum costs
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>> "Minimum costs" are for the base power before any advantages.
>>
>
>I absolutely agree. Of course, minimum costs can be waived with good
>reason, and a lot of published characters have less than minimum amounts
>of some power.
Okay, perhaps I have been playing with some more restrained than average
players, but Ive never seen the need for minimum costs on most powers. I
just have people define a minimum level that NNDs require the defense for
(so you cant buy 1 of each defense and expect to bounce the NNDs that target
those).
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists....
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 23 Oct 1997 12:41:19 -0400
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>>>>> "SM" == Stephen McGinness <smcginn@csm.exeter.ac.uk> writes:
SM> Well many of them would have a DEX in the 26-32 range but insist that
SM> they were just highly trained normals. That is _not_ true to concept so
SM> I called it unreasonable.
Time to repost my DEX/Speed guidelines.
People with little or no combat training are Speed 2, DEX 8-11. This is
more than 99% of the world's population.
People with a goodly amount of combat training might manage to muster a
Speed 3. DEX will be in the 12-15 range.
Those with extensive combat training and plenty of combat experience will
be Speed 3, with a very few at speed 4; DEX in the 13-18 range.
Beyond DEX 18 you are looking at the likes of Olympic gymnasts that have to
work almost constantly to maintain there level of performance, especially
those rare few who manage to exceed 20.
A highly-trained normal is going to hit peak around DEX 15-18. Beyond that
he realistically is going to be adding skill levels before increasing DEX.
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
\
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 97 16:50:59 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness)
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists....
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At 10:35 AM 23/10/97, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>I thought that perhaps the martial artists would benefit (concept wise) by
>>having an ablative style defence to represent the blows which glance past or
>>miss altogether.
>
>I think this would be better represented by Damage Reduction with a Skill
>Roll - like a DEX roll. This better simulates the 'roll with the punch' or
>'deflect the blow' than Ablative, IMHO. Besides, with Ablative the defense
>will always work the first time...
Well, I was looking at a way of "letting" them avoid the first blow, perhaps
teh second, and part of the third, then have to worry about taking the full
force thereafter. The damage reduction method _was_ another way that I came
up with and _did_ prove more popular, even if I didn't really like it being
used too much.
>>cost effective, so my martial artists still went for unfeasably high DEX and
>>PD despite it being contrary to a strict interpretation of their concept,
>>and allowed because it helped them remain competitive in the game.
>
>Define 'unreasonably high' DEX and PD. Let's face it, having a 3-4 CV
>advantage isn't enough to keep you in a fight if you've only got 8-12 PD. As
>you say above, they sort of need it to remain competitive in the game. Lots
Well many of them would have a DEX in the 26-32 range but insist that they
were just highly trained normals. That is _not_ true to concept so I called
it unreasonable.
>of energy projectors in comics don't have jack for defenses either, but that
>doesn't stop Champs players from buying forcefields and the like - which
>aren't all that common, really. Not rare, but I'd say at least 50%, if not
>more, of energy projectors don't have exotic defenses (Cyclops, Havok,
>Jubilee, Gambit) but instead rely on cover, mobility, agility, and body armor.
Good point. I haven't ever gone after the energy projectors with the same
zeal as I did the martial artists. Perhaps I am biased against them?? :-)
>What you've got to do as a GM is to _restrict_ everybody else's DEX to lower
>levels. Martial Artists built to 'realistic' standards will get creamed
>every time by those DEX 18 Bricks. Ask the other players (and NPC villians)
>why they should, under their character concept, get more than 10-12 DEX.
>Suddenly that 23 DEX martial artist isn't looking so bad - especially with
>the combat levels he'll have. With a 6-7 CV advantage, they won't grumble so
>much about crappy PD.
I guess it's all about the arms race thing. Lower DEX means more expensive
SPD, and you need to keep up with the Joneses. I have been without a
face-to-face gaming group for some time now and when I do start again I will
have a whole raft of mechanisms to sort these issues out.
>On another note: The unreasonable damage dished out by Champs martial
>artists. It's often on the Brick-level, which shouldn't be. Check the Green
>Dragon write-up in 'Watchers of the Dragon'. Tell me he couldn't tear his
>way right out of a standard jail cell.
Your looking down the same path as I was. The damage was the other thing
that upset me. Sure, martial artists should be able to duke it out with
bricks but the _styles_ should be radically different and the damage done
should be different too. I have come up with methods to sort that out, but
I've already spoken about this sort of stuff on the list.
>Solution? Make all 'normal' (non-killing, non-NND) martial arts maneuvers
>have 'Reduced Penetration'. So Joe MA with 20 STR could do a straight 4D6
>punch, or haul out his Offensive Strike and do 8D6 Reduced Penetration.
>Little change in effectiveness against low-defense humans, makes MA-vs.-MA
>combat last longer (as it should), and renders MAs less effective vs. Bricks
>- as it should be. Also keeps Martial Artists from punching through brick
>walls on a regular basis (buy the board-busting trick as an HA if you want it).
Like I said. I did it differently. I used the method of increasing damage
done due to getting better than the required to-hit roll. That works too.
Stephen
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Setting a power level and making sure the PC is 3D
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:03:41 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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Hello;
Ok everyone, I posted that around midnight last nigh in between yawns,
so I failed to fully elaborate my question. Let do so now.
THe goal I'm seeking is this:
How do you ensure a three dimensional character yet maintain a certain
power level. My prefered power level is the one shown by 'most of the guys'
in the BBB. However, I feel those character's are lacking in true dimension
on their character sheets. I notice most Fantasy Hero or Danger International
character's have more flavor than the average Champions character.
This is simply because the powers and 'super high' stats take up
so many of the points...
TO achieve that power level in the BBB takes all 250 points, which
tends to leave the character as nothing more than a skeleton of powers and
stats.
To solve this I figure one would need to raise the starting point
total, yet keep the power level constant. I figured maybe 20 more points that
would be restricted to non power fleshing out.
After we discused that I remembered the suggestion in GURPS that I
showed below. Crunchy had the idea of making the player show a non powered
version of the PC, then a powered one.
Now, even for characters whose power is an integral part of them
more fleshing out is needed.
THe question is just how to best do it without changing the power
level from the games chosen level.
>
> ><Arcady> one think I really liked about GURPS Supers was an odd rule it
> >had for character creation
> ><Arcady> in GURPS, you have 100 points, or 500 in Supers.
> ><Arcady> so to make a Super you first made a 100 point normal PC
> ><Crunchy> right. So make a 100 point character, THEN tack on the
> >powers.
> ><Arcady> then you had 400 more points to add powers...
> ><Arcady> yeah
> ><Arcady> it forces 3d characters
> ><Crunchy> That can be done in Champs, too.
> ><Arcady> I may try the same thing in Hero
> ><Arcady> but
> ><Crunchy> the higher power levels you can use a similar rule.
> ><Arcady> your PC would then be a 50+50 normal with powers added on...?
> ><Arcady> or a 75+75 normal
> ><Crunchy> Hmm.
> ><Arcady> and how many points for the powers in order to get a BBB power
> >level
> ><Crunchy> Well, just like with the points for powers, don't set a hard
> >limit.
> ><Arcady> that's where I don't yet have a good answer...
> ><Crunchy> Just ask to see the "pre-powered" character.
> ><Arcady> maybe I should post this to the hero-l list
> ><Crunchy> Might get some good feedback.
> >
> Well, firstly, you don't *have* to make a 100 pointer in GURPS and then tack
> on the extra points in powers... In fact, a GURPS true Normal is only 25
> points worth. Some character conceptions, especially in the GURPS IST world
> require the Powers to be an integral part of the character, and the
> character wouldn't be the same (personality, Mental Disadvantages, or
> Skills) without the Powers.
Agreed, in fact; it's why I never used that suggestion in GURPS.
I understand why they made it. And I admire it's goal. But like the rule of
X in Fuzion, I think the way it was implemented fails under test.
The issue is not so much to find out what the person was like
before the power. The goal is to make sure that the character in question,
powers and all; is as fleshed out as your typical FH or DI character.
The best advice I can come up with is to tell my players to
build a power level that is equivalent to the BBB. Using from 250 to 300
points to do so, more/less as needed. THe PC should then be fully fleshed
out in background skills and abilities as per the story. I would be watching
not the point total, but the power level achieved with those points.
To which end I would have to analyze in character on it's own in
relation to the others and to the power level I've chosen (BBB in mycase)
I really can't say I could even say so much as max this many attack
dice or this many CV's....
I don't see a quick and dirty method of doing it...
After all, which is more potent. A guy with 10d6 EB and 18 PD/ED/MD/pow
Def/Flash Def. 7CV with 2 skill levels.
Or a guy with CV 18, yet 5 PD and ED, and an attack at 5d6...
THe 18 CV sounds extreme, but one hit and the guy is down...
This is where I like the concept of the Rule of X over the active
point limits of Hero. But I feel neither one fully achieves what they each
desire to do.
But that's a whole seperate subject...
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:12:27 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Black Hole
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At 11:43 AM 10/19/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "AAM" == ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> writes:
>
>AAM> How would you simulate the effects of a black hole?
>
>If you get within a certain distance, the event horizon, you are drawn into
>the point singularity at the heart and cease to exist.
>
>Power: Extradimensional Movement, Area of Effect Radius (big radius),
>Usable Against Others, No Normal Defense: having no mass (insubstantial,
>such as with some forms of Desolidification). Continuous is an option.
NND is not necessary with UAO. The defenses against UAO (generically)
are of basically the same types as those for NND, and there's no other
alteration that NND can give to this Power other than an increase in cost.
>Note that radiant energy *does* have mass, so Desolidification SFX based on
>radiant energy forms does not qualify as a defense. In other words, there
>really is no defense against a real black hole.
I'd just make the XDM a Gate, and use TK to draw those around it into
the gate.
>"Here, have a point singularity." <Kachunk!> "Have two, they're small."
><Kachunk!>
"You want fries with that?"
---
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:13:47 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Multiple Personality syndrome
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At 10:48 AM 10/19/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> How would you design a character with Multiple Personalities?
>We're talking 4 or five seperate, distinct personalities who would
>have certains skills (or even powers) unique to each. I'm concearned,
>because I don't feel Psychological Limitation defines each well enough.
>Some possibilities I've thought of would be 'Accidental Change' or
>'Multiform: Only effects mental statistics & personality."
> ...and if each has it's own Disadvantages.
Actually, in my view, how one handles Multiple Personality Disorder in
game terms (speaking generally here) depends on how distinct and different
the Personalities are in game terms. In your case, a series Multiforms
with Accidental Change is probably the best route, especially if the
different forms have different Powers. (A long series of Powers, Skills,
etc. with the Limitation "Only in Form X" can get hard to manage.)
FWIW arguably the two best examples of MPD in published characters are
Angstrom in Champions Presents #1 and Chaos in The Mutant File. They take
two different angles on MPD, each valid for the character in question.
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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:14:33 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Question about Links Categories
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At 01:12 PM 10/19/97 -0700, Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote:
>Greetings, all --
>
>My Champions links page (http://www.mactyre.net/scm/links.html) is becoming
>unwieldy -- at last count I had 136 links, and they're listed under a
>couple of categories, like PBEM games, organizations, campaign worlds, and
>the like. I've had a bunch of requests for me to annotate the dang thing,
>but I'm not really sure how I should do it. Should I keep the categories
>and maybe include a few comments, should I alphabetize and include a few
>comments, should I make value judgements as to the merit of sites, rank
>them, what? Obviously there are sites which are much more useful than
>others, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable with judging the quality of
>others' work.
>
>The links page is the most commonly accessed page, receiving around a
>hundred hits a day, and I'd wager that members of this list are among those
>using it. So what would you all like to see? Should I leave it alone?
>Annotate it? Rank it? If I do choose to annotate it, should I come up with
>a key (as I believe George Ruban suggested about a year ago), and use that
>to say which sites have backgrounds or character sheets or art in a
>shorthand form?
The only thing I would suggest is to divide it up. Put the different
categories on separate pages, with some brief comments about what each
category entails.
If you do work things up with a "key" for what's on a site, I'd suggest
going the icon route, with a small graphical icon telling what's on a site.
Hero Guy could indicate character sheets, a wrench could be HeroMaker
files, a globe would mean campaign world descriptions, etc.
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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:15:09 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Secret ID/OIHID against Chars
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At 02:50 AM 10/20/97 -0400, The Nez Master wrote:
>1> Just as a mood effect, stress time. Make him play out the angst of not
>having time to devote to people, because he is living two lives. Work not
>getting done, just remind him while he's fighting Dr Destroyer that he has
>an appointment in 30 minutes with some one for an interview (or in his
>case, a counseling, a membership drive, an appearance, a wedding,)
>
>2> Put in situations when he is busy elsewhere when he gets a phone call
>from the group. He will have to face making himself look bad in front of
>some paritionaers by skipping out on something, or letting Mechanon destroy
>humanity. You think villians never attack on Sunday morning.
>
>3> He see's people he personally knows involved in something. He's with a
>freind in his id, when he see's some villian attack. The friend or
>aquaintence is of course noblein heart, and will not let his preist freind
>be endagnered, no way is he getting out of sight.
>
>4>During a time when lots of people are focused on him, soemthing intense
>happens. The multitudes look to their freind and leader for focus and
>leadership. "Help us decide what to do" would be difficult to meet with
>running away changing ids.
These are all good suggestions for handling Secret ID or the fact that
the character is a priest, but aren't really affected by OIHID that much.
>Now, ohid with public id is tougher, and some would argue not much of a
>limitation. I would say if he also had instant change, it's not really a
>limitaiotn at all. Without instant change, it can be really bad. Since
>everyone knows who he did (or with no id, can find out), he's a target, and
>soonthe villians will figure out 'hit him hard and fast, and he can't
change.
This latter fact is what I would say would still make the Public
ID/OIHID a valid Disadvantage/Limitation combo. Grond might not eliminate
him, but a nutcase with a sniper rifle could put him down in a single shot.
However, there would still have to be some reason that the character
would have a hard time staying in Hero ID all the time and leading a normal
life. An extremely strange appearance, extreme size, flaming hair, the
smell of sulpher and brimstone, or a variety of other things could count.
---
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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:15:39 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Secret ID/OIHID against Chars
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At 06:57 PM 10/19/97 -0200, Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria wrote:
> A character was created mostly with only in hero ID disvantages. I
>would like some ideas of how these could be used against him, without
>isolating him from the rest of the group, making everyone participate in a
>single adventure where he would suffer from the OIHID disvantage. I've
>being thinking that as noone knows his secret ID, nothing would happen to
>him in that ID, as he isn't an important person in it. (he is a priest,
>but i guess a more general response might be better)
> And if what happened was just near him, he could just walk out,
>change to hero id, and would not suffer much from the hero id. The only
>think i have thought that does not let that happen was imprisonment, what
>is not only very tough, but also kind of nosense with an unimportant
>person.
> Does anyone have any ideas to offer ?
The easy way to do that is to make him a subject in a hostage crisis.
He could be eating at a fancy restaurant with the Monsignor, or even with
another PC in civilian ID, when a bunch of VIPER agents burst in and makes
an instant hostage situation (like the "Ascension" scenario in the VIPER
sourcebook). You could even make matters even worse by giving one of the
agents some kind of anti-Catholic, anti-clergy, or general anti-religious
paranoia.
---
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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:16:42 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero Cantrip Question
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At 10:34 PM 10/19/97 -0400, Scott Nolan wrote:
>I run a Fantasy Hero game. All sorcerers in the game have a basic spell
>called "Cantrip". Forget the mechanics, they're unimportant to the
>question. The intention of the spell is to allow a wide variety of basic
>abilities matching the special effects of the particular school of sorcery.
> Pyromancers can start fires, dry clothes, make their eyes blaze with
>light, etc. All minor, non-combat effects.
>
>A player asked me what that would do for his diviner, a school with
>detection and divination abilities. Obviously, it might be able to tell
>him where he left the keys to his camel, but what practical usage might
>such a spell have for a diviner? Could it allow him to know people's names
>when he met them? Could it predict the results of a hand of poker? On
>sheer game balance terms, I'd be for the former and against the latter.
I'm with you on that judgement. Anything that could be done better with
another Power (Precognition, in this case) shouldn't be allowed. (Though
what constitutes "done better" is, of course, a matter of opinion.)
The Diviner's Cantrip could possibly also enable him to pull Sherlock
Holmes-style tricks on people he meets: "I perceive that you have just
returned from Afghanistan," his first words to Watson, being a perfect
example.
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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:24:21 -0700
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell)
Subject: Re: Villain Help
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->
-> I wanted to ask the list for suggestions for powers. The character is a
-> villianous mastermind whose sfx is based on "real" stage magic, that is
-> gimmicks that looks at least superfically like stage magic but have real
-> occult power. Does anyone have any suggestions?
->
How about the power to saw people in half?
-Sam
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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:25:35 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists....
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At 10:35 AM 10/23/97 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>I thought that perhaps the martial artists would benefit (concept wise) by
>>having an ablative style defence to represent the blows which glance past
or
>>miss altogether.
>
>I think this would be better represented by Damage Reduction with a Skill
>Roll - like a DEX roll. This better simulates the 'roll with the punch' or
>'deflect the blow' than Ablative, IMHO. Besides, with Ablative the defense
>will always work the first time...
Not if it starts out with an Activation Roll. I'm with you in
principle, though; what was suggested above is better represented with RSR.
>What you've got to do as a GM is to _restrict_ everybody else's DEX to lower
>levels. Martial Artists built to 'realistic' standards will get creamed
>every time by those DEX 18 Bricks. Ask the other players (and NPC villians)
>why they should, under their character concept, get more than 10-12 DEX.
>Suddenly that 23 DEX martial artist isn't looking so bad - especially with
>the combat levels he'll have. With a 6-7 CV advantage, they won't grumble so
>much about crappy PD.
I think this is a good guiding rule for all-original campaigns, or those
where the GM doesn't mind the work of converting published villains to
those standards. It does make better sense for beginning heroes to start
with a max of 14 DEX and 3 SPD unless there's a specific reason to have
them higher.
Of course, you could always start the PCs with that lowered DEX and SPD,
but leave the villains where they are. The heroes will then have to catch
up, and probably have to learn teamwork ("What's that?") along the way.
And the extra points can be used by buy spare bits of equipment, Contacts,
investigation Skills, and the like.
>On another note: The unreasonable damage dished out by Champs martial
>artists. It's often on the Brick-level, which shouldn't be. Check the Green
>Dragon write-up in 'Watchers of the Dragon'. Tell me he couldn't tear his
>way right out of a standard jail cell.
Well, he *does* get referred to Stronghold on that basis. That's why
the lawsuit to declare Stronghold unconstitutional bore his name.
>Solution? Make all 'normal' (non-killing, non-NND) martial arts maneuvers
>have 'Reduced Penetration'. So Joe MA with 20 STR could do a straight 4D6
>punch, or haul out his Offensive Strike and do 8D6 Reduced Penetration.
>Little change in effectiveness against low-defense humans, makes MA-vs.-MA
>combat last longer (as it should), and renders MAs less effective vs. Bricks
>- as it should be. Also keeps Martial Artists from punching through brick
>walls on a regular basis (buy the board-busting trick as an HA if you want
it).
To be perfectly honest, while I see where you're coming from on this, I
really don't like it. For one thing, what's to balance the brick against
the Martial Artist in this case? He can still pretty easily clean the MA's
clock with one punch, once he finally connects.
---
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From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: What a Timeline is truly good for
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:29:36 -0700 (PDT)
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> that it uses a particular system, like Champions. However, the mode of
> running a PBEM game is, by definition, vastly different than playing around
> a table (or, in my case, the living room floor), and thus it's a whole
> different ball game. Heck, GM styles are completely different across the
> FTF board, so adding PBEM increases variability that much more, all under
> the wonderful umbrella of Champions games.
>
I would agree to that. Being a player in about 5 or so PBeM's
right now. It requires much more writing :)
Or rather, actions must be described and explained in much greater
detail. And characterization seems to play a bigger role. It's much more
suited towards playing things which are a radical departure from onself.
I'm not so sure I agree that it requires greater control on the GM's
part. None of my GM's seem to do anymore that retcon when I type to far,
or correct me when I do/say something which is outside the worlds parameters.
However, I will agree to hold on passing full judgement until my
own boots have mud on them...
>
> Your children will see the stars.
>
Considering polution today, I doubt it. :(
I know the four years I spent in Korea where starless and sky was not blue.
I actually thought the white to brownish white was normal until I returned
to the USA and realized the sky is blue, then changes to black with spots at
night. :)
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification and the environment
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:32:37 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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> >> > > (Wait, how is "transdimensional" not a special effect?)
> >> > Transdimensional is a Power Modifier, not a special effect.
> >> Never heard of it. From one of the Almanacs?
> >Hero System Rules, page 97.
>
> It's also in the errata to the BBB, which is floating around the web
> somewhere (I think I have it on my machine), and in Mystic Masters, a
> book on running superhero sorcerers.
Yes, it was missing from the first printing of 4th edition, along with
a few other power modifiers. I have two copies of the BBB. My first printing
lacks this, but I had it in the erratta in an issue of Adv Club...
My newer Deluxe copy has it in there.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:44:52 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Villain Help
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At 10:08 AM 10/23/97 -0400, Kim Foster wrote:
>I wanted to ask the list for suggestions for powers. The character is a
>villianous mastermind whose sfx is based on "real" stage magic, that is
>gimmicks that looks at least superfically like stage magic but have real
>occult power. Does anyone have any suggestions?
As usual, I'm going to think off the top of my head:
Pulling flowers from the sleeve creates a pheromonal aura that either
causes some specific emotional reaction, or just generally puts those in
the area under the villain's Mind Control.
The hat is a "bag of tricks" from which the villain can pull any small
object (built as a VPP with appropriate modifiers).
He sticks a Follower in a box and saws her in two; this becomes
Duplication, Usable Against Others (with scads of Limitations).
By the same token, he could also have the ability to transform an
"assistant" into a tiger or other animal (or the assistant could have that
power herself).
Flash Powder becomes real Flashes.
Summoning real pigeons (as opposed to pulling them from out of hiding)
to serve various functions is another possibility.
Playing cards are another matter. The face cards could act as Summons
for up to a dozen combatants (and the Jokers could add two more). What
function the others could serve is beyond me.
---
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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:04:41 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Minimum costs
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At 09:36 AM 10/23/97 -0700, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>>> "Minimum costs" are for the base power before any advantages.
>>>
>>
>>I absolutely agree. Of course, minimum costs can be waived with good
>>reason, and a lot of published characters have less than minimum amounts
>>of some power.
>
>Okay, perhaps I have been playing with some more restrained than average
>players, but Ive never seen the need for minimum costs on most powers. I
>just have people define a minimum level that NNDs require the defense for
>(so you cant buy 1 of each defense and expect to bounce the NNDs that target
>those).
I rarely use or allow NNDs where the defense is a certain amount of a
particular defense. If I want something similar, I opt for AVLD.
---
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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:15:46 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Setting a power level and making sure the PC is 3D
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At 10:03 AM 10/23/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote:
> This is simply because the powers and 'super high' stats take up
>so many of the points...
> TO achieve that power level in the BBB takes all 250 points, which
>tends to leave the character as nothing more than a skeleton of powers and
>stats.
> To solve this I figure one would need to raise the starting point
>total, yet keep the power level constant. I figured maybe 20 more points that
>would be restricted to non power fleshing out.
I've found that 100+200 characters make nice, round figures. Take a
look at some of the characters on my website (the Justifiers, at least --
they're PCs) and see if that's close to what you have in mind.
> The issue is not so much to find out what the person was like
>before the power. The goal is to make sure that the character in question,
>powers and all; is as fleshed out as your typical FH or DI character.
Just as a general guideline, I suggest that all players pay attention to
what their lives are like outside superheroing.
In the olden days (he says in his best "old man" voice), if you wanted a
character to know physics and integral calculus, be fluent in 17 languages,
and have enough money to own half the state of Nebraska, you just said so
at creation time, and there it was. Now you'd have to pay points for all
of that.
While there are more places to spend points, though, there are also more
places to get points from. Unusual Looks has become Distinctive Features,
and you can take it more than once. Dependences, Reputations, and
Rivalries are new concerns. And you no longer get just half value for the
third and fourth instances of the same type of Disadvantage.
Of course, back then you were expected to do 100+100 characters, and the
BBB now says 100+150. But I like 100+200. TEHO.
> I really can't say I could even say so much as max this many attack
>dice or this many CV's....
> I don't see a quick and dirty method of doing it...
>
> After all, which is more potent. A guy with 10d6 EB and 18 PD/ED/MD/pow
>Def/Flash Def. 7CV with 2 skill levels.
>
> Or a guy with CV 18, yet 5 PD and ED, and an attack at 5d6...
>THe 18 CV sounds extreme, but one hit and the guy is down...
Use caution here. A 24d6 attack, even with a low-CV and low-defense
character, can be pretty devestating (unless it's a "Power of last resort,"
with Side Effects and a bunch of other Limitations that make its use
undesirable as a regular practice).
> This is where I like the concept of the Rule of X over the active
>point limits of Hero. But I feel neither one fully achieves what they each
>desire to do.
> But that's a whole seperate subject...
That I can think of, I've never seen anything in any RPG that *fully*
achieves what it sets out to do. We have to settle for a reasonable
facsimile (at least, until cyberware becomes a marketplace commonality).
---
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:27:15 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Interspecies cooperation/competition as a campaign theme
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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At 08:59 AM 10/22/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote:
> Anyone ever sit down and try to decide why Orc's and Elves
>would fight?
Well, TSR did this way back in =Unearthed Arcana= (at least from one
faction's view); they blamed it on an ancient conflict between the topkick
deities of those races.
For my own part, I also dislike arbitrarily thumping one race/culture as
"EVIL!" unless there's some cosmological reason for it -- for example, in
one campaign I ran, sort of a "Tangent Universe" for D&D, goblins &
hobgoblins were inherently evil, but it was because they were essentially a
REALLY minor form of devil/demon. Orcs were thought of as 'evil' by a lot
of the inhabitants, but were more "Vikings on an adrenaline high" -- you
could reason with an Orc if you had to.
--
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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:30:54 -0400 (EDT)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists....
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>>On another note: The unreasonable damage dished out by Champs martial
>>artists. It's often on the Brick-level, which shouldn't be. Check the Green
>>Dragon write-up in 'Watchers of the Dragon'. Tell me he couldn't tear his
>>way right out of a standard jail cell.
>
> Well, he *does* get referred to Stronghold on that basis. That's why
>the lawsuit to declare Stronghold unconstitutional bore his name.
I thought it was more a matter of him escaping through skill and stealth
rather than plain brute force. As written, a holding cell wouldn't hold him,
yet the WotD book clearly has it doing so.
>>Solution? Make all 'normal' (non-killing, non-NND) martial arts maneuvers
>>have 'Reduced Penetration'. So Joe MA with 20 STR could do a straight 4D6
>>punch, or haul out his Offensive Strike and do 8D6 Reduced Penetration.
>>Little change in effectiveness against low-defense humans, makes MA-vs.-MA
>>combat last longer (as it should), and renders MAs less effective vs. Bricks
>>- as it should be. Also keeps Martial Artists from punching through brick
>>walls on a regular basis (buy the board-busting trick as an HA if you want
>it).
>
> To be perfectly honest, while I see where you're coming from on this, I
>really don't like it. For one thing, what's to balance the brick against
>the Martial Artist in this case? He can still pretty easily clean the MA's
>clock with one punch, once he finally connects.
So? That's why MAs take NNDs, throws, and high mobility. It takes guile, not
power, for a MA to beat a brick. Or at least it should. I could say the same
thing of the MA vs. a flying energy projector. How is that balanced? The MA
can't get an attack in. What happens when Hulk meets Daredevil? DD sure
doesn't knock out the Hulkster, that's for sure.
And if a MA _can_ knock out a Brick thanks to those 12-14D6 martial attacks,
he can tear his way through reinforced concrete walls, which certainly seems
odd for a person of 'normal' human strength. Similar to the 'blade'
limitation, there's only so much a 'unaugmented' human being can break.
While a martial artist might push the limit, snapping I-beams should be out
unless he's got some sort of truly 'super' power (Iron Fist, Spiderman).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, I feel pretty good."
"Yeah, me too. I've got a real positive attitude."
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John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Minimum costs
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "CT" == Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> writes:
CT> Okay, perhaps I have been playing with some more restrained than
CT> average players, but Ive never seen the need for minimum costs on most
CT> powers. I just have people define a minimum level that NNDs require
CT> the defense for (so you cant buy 1 of each defense and expect to bounce
CT> the NNDs that target those).
Well, the primary reason for minimum costs is to prevent "defense abuse"
against NNDs. Spread about 10 points around various and sundry defenses
and you can attain invulnerability against just about any NND -- except for
the minimum cost requirements. These are primarilly for use in superheroic
games.
For heroic-level games in which powers are available, minimum costs may be
waived... but the GM should be careful when he does so.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
\ head.
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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:31:54 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero Cantrip Question
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At 09:47 AM 10/20/97 -0400, Geoffrey Speare wrote:
>> A player asked me what that would do for his diviner, a school with
>> detection and divination abilities. Obviously, it might be able to tell
>> him where he left the keys to his camel, but what practical usage might
>> such a spell have for a diviner? Could it allow him to know people's names
>> when he met them? Could it predict the results of a hand of poker? On
>> sheer game balance terms, I'd be for the former and against the latter.
>
>Your calls sound good; other ideas:
>
>See around corners without poking your head around;
Nah. Save that one for Clairvoyance.
>Low-resolution, nonspecific detect magic (only works on STRONG magic,
vague as
>to type and exact location);
I like that one. Get a real Detect Magic for the detailed look, but
this is a sort of Mystic Awareness.
>Which way the guard is going to turn;
Good one.
>One card in a hand of poker (maybe :-), and;
Maybe is right. Perhaps the GM could allow it, but make it a tad
unreliable.
>Which other characters are PCs. :-)
Oh, definitely.
Oh, and how about how much change he has in his pocket (without counting
it)?
---
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:06:52 -0700
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Villain Help
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At 10:24 AM 10/23/97 -0700, Sam Bell wrote:
>
>->
>-> I wanted to ask the list for suggestions for powers. The character is a
>-> villianous mastermind whose sfx is based on "real" stage magic, that is
>-> gimmicks that looks at least superfically like stage magic but have real
>-> occult power. Does anyone have any suggestions?
>->
I created precisely this villain for my WW2 game;he also had mental
illusions. He had scarves for entangle, razor-edged playing cards for
throwing, smoke bombs, and a small VPP based on pulling stuff out of a hat.
X-Sender: scm@mail.aci.net
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:24:59 -0700
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: What a Timeline is truly good for
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At 10:29 AM 10/23/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote:
> I would agree to that. Being a player in about 5 or so PBeM's
>right now. It requires much more writing :)
Lots and lots and lots of writing! I think the best PBEM GMs are the ones
who trick their players into doing most of the writing (she said, hoping
none of her players are on the list). ;-)
>> Your children will see the stars.
>>
> Considering polution today, I doubt it. :(
>I know the four years I spent in Korea where starless and sky was not blue.
>I actually thought the white to brownish white was normal until I returned
>to the USA and realized the sky is blue, then changes to black with spots at
>night. :)
The one advantage to living in this hick state (other than no one thinking
it odd that liberals such as myself have a pick-up truck, dogs, and a gun)
is that on clear nights you can see the Milky Way away from the city
lights. It's absolutely incredible. If you ever find yourself in Nevada,
folks, I can tell you it's much prettier to go out in the middle of the
desert and look up than go into a casino and look down.
Speaking of which...anyone besides me ever set a Champions adventure in
Nevada? Vegas trips or something?
But I'll work on a new .sig sometime soon. I like the stars one, though! =)
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
www.mactyre.net
Your children will see the stars.
--Robert A. Heinlein
From: Egyptoid@aol.com
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:01:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Villain Help
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stage powers:
escape artistry at 26 or less
contortionist
card tricks:
produce info about characters by reading cards out of deck
telepathy
ESP:
clairvoyance to spot hidden items and inobvious foci
teleport small objects
into hand, into pocket, into pocket dimension!
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:05:10 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: What a Timeline is truly good for
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Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote:
> Well, I have tried explaining, and since it's not working, I think I have a
> better idea. Why don't you announce to the list or r.g.f.s-h that you want
> to run a Champions PBEM game. Wait for the flood of e-mail to subside.
> Select four or so players you think will do really well and that are
> prolific writers. Start running a game.
Sorry, but as I have only recently joined in this type of discussion, I am not
up on all of the abreviations used. I have worked out most of them but without
upsetting anybody's sensabilities, what the hell does r.g.f.s-h stand for.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:09:53 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: RE: Foci and Instant Cha
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 09:10 PM 10/22/97 +0600, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>>>I didn't know about the Power Limitation "Restrainable".
>>>Before 4th Edition the examples for Angel's wings used some form of
>>>a modifed OIF to simulate the restrainable aspect of his wings.
>>>I never did like the way that was presented.
>>>Restrainable sounds much more reasonable as a limitation.
>>>
>>In some very poor cases, OAF was used, too. I think restrainable is sort of
>>the difference between Accessible and Inaccessible... that would explain why
>>it is worth -1/2 as well. I think I would go with this to model the Black
>>Knight's new weapons... That, and Incantations on his Instant Change.
>
> Restrainable basically means that it can be Entangled, or Grabbed and
>held, but unlike a Focus it cannot be taken away.
>
Which means that it's even more appropriate for Dane's weapons... he could
get them back by Instant Changing... which means he could be disarmed, but
it would actually be a Grab manuever versus his weapons (which aren't Foci,
the way I'm thinking).
- Jerry
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:14:49 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Foci and Instant Change
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At 09:16 AM 10/21/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 03:34 PM 10/17/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>JD> Did you have to waste our time just to chant? Our (mine and Rick
>>JD> Ryker's) contention is that it *is* a Limitation. Possibly not a
>>JD> *combat* oriented Limitation... but then, if you discount those, get
>>JD> rid of 75% of the Disadvantages on your sheet, too.
>>
>>Given that the described use of Instant Change was specifically to overcome
>>any disadvantages to Focus or OHID, I believe that it did need being said.
>>The character in question clearly was *NOT* limited by either Focus or
>>OHID. He was able to retrieve his weapons with no effort; likewise he was
>>able to switch between normal and heroic identities without restriction.
>>
>>So, no bonus.
>
> "No effort" and "without restriction" are not the only problems to be
>overcome in this case. The fact that his opponents did not take advantage
>of the fact that he was essentially defenseless for the moment that he was
>in civilian ID is not of his own doing -- at least, as far as I can tell.
>Also, as far as I could tell, the removed weapons could have been used
>against him.
>
Yes, it was not really his doing that the villains didn't whomp him. The
rest of the team also attacked from surprise at this point. And also, yes,
the weapons did seem to be usable on him, as he was being held prisoner,
with his own sword at his throat.
I again say that this was a character in a comic (the Black Knight from
Heroes for Hire from Marvel), and that I was asking for ways of modeling
some described powers...
- Jerry
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: Grey Areas
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 23:24:19 -0500
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> >That these two persons can be the same just means that your sidekick
> >(to use an old Golden Age Champions term) helps you a lot (a la
> Rhodey)
> >but also frequently gets into trouble (plot device).
>
> I would not allow a character to take the same individual as both a
> Follower and a DNPC. The character is either a DNPC with useful
> Skills, a
> Follower with Disadvantages that get him into trouble, or a fellow PC.
>
Then you're given up alot of great plot devices
that you could be using against your PCs.
If a PC takes a DNPC (regardless of whether he is a follower or not),
you (the GM) automatically get greater control of that PCs world.
If you play the DNPC disadvantage to the max,
your PCs will be begging to buy off the disadvantage
-- even if it's for a super talented normal.
Remember, most sidekicks get into alot of trouble.
Followers aren't generally supposed to be used for this purpose.
Since the PC paid points for his follower, he has reason to get irate if
you
keep kidnapping his followers or putting them into all sorts of other
perils.
On the other hand, if a PC gets points for a DNPC
(even an extremely talented DNPC),
then most GMs get irate if the DNPC winds up helping the PCs
more often than he/she gets into trouble.
When you allow a PC to take the same person as a follower
and as a DNPC, your implying that having this DNPC/follower around
is beneficial a lot of the time but is also usually a great pain in the
neck
for all the trouble that comes with him following the PC around.
Besides rarely in life or even in the 4 color world is anyone
totally useful or totally disadvantageous.
-RICK
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: Setting a power level and making sure the PC is 3D
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 23:43:50 -0500
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I remember one campaign we had that was set in a post-holocaust
world.
We were para-normals who were about to discover our powers.
The GM had us create DI characters on a 75 point base.
Mine was a tough guy private eye type.
We spent about two episodes tracking down the bad guys DI style
before we each had our "accidents".
The result was some very well rounded characters that had things
that
they could do even if their powers were temporarily off.
-RICK
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: RE: Villain Help
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 23:51:39 -0500
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> stage powers:
>
> escape artistry at 26 or less
> contortionist
>
> card tricks:
> produce info about characters by reading cards out of deck
> telepathy
>
> ESP:
> clairvoyance to spot hidden items and inobvious foci
>
> teleport small objects
> into hand, into pocket, into pocket dimension!
>
This sounds familiar.
I had a stage magician who bought an extremely limited teleport:
words or gestures, only inanimate items less than 10 lbs,
from/to 4 pre-planned locations that he could change
but had to memorize before hand.
He stored lock picks and other tools to help with his escape routines!
He also had a knack for snatching focii and making them disappear.
-RICK
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:32:11 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
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> >There are several posters to this mailing list who owe Tim Gilberg an
> >apology.
>
> I don't recall saying anything derisive, but if I said anything that was
> perceived as out of line, I do apologize.
Now, now, I'm not fishing for apologies. However, I do want
complete and utter control over your souls. Nothing major.
> I think now some people will be able to recognize why so many people
> were upset over Dean Shomshak's derisive comments in The Ultimate Super
> Mage about people of religious belief.
Nice corrolary -- though he did at least keep from taking any
"major" beliefs and turning them into a game system. If it had been a
bastardized Judeo-Christian system, people would have been much angrier,
IMHO. As it is, who really worships Blake's Zoas?
-Tim Gilberg
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Vampires vs Water
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 00:00:47 -0700
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On Thursday, October 23, 1997 10:52 PM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
<snip>
> I think that the explanation (at least, the real-world
explanation) is a
>little simpler, but somewhat more esoteric, than that.
Oh, _real world_. My parents visited there once, but from what they
said, I didn't miss much. I was disappointed, though, as all I got was
a t-shirt which read, "My parents visited reality and all I got was a
lousy t-shirt."
> Though we don't see the connection much in our own society,
running
>water is a traditional symbol of the flow of life. Vampires are
supposedly
>a form of "undead," and so they cannot "cross the flow of life," any
more
>than a beam of darkness can penetrate light (remember, I'm talking
>real-world here).
I believe that's right. In a similar way, a vampire cannot enter a
house without permission because of an old proverb, "The Devil may
enter no house unbidden, but once invited, no man can make him leave."
At least, that's my guess.
Filksinger
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:47:31 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Vampires vs Water
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Brian Wong wrote:
>> >
>> > This brings to mind a question that's been on the back burner for quite
>> >a while, and I'd like to get a consensus of thought.
>> > An NPC motorcycle gang in a manuscript I'm working up is led by a
>> >vampire (the other members aren't much less savory). Of course, as a
>> >vampire, the leader cannot cross running water.
>> > The question is, could he cross rivers and streams on his Harley? Could
>> >he drive himself, or would one of the other gang members have to do the
>> >actual driving?
>
> Anybody see the Interview with a Vampire movie? I think it's
>buried in my Laser Disc collection somewhere...
>
> At the end of that movie the interviewer is crossing the Bay Bridge
>in his car when suddenly Lestat (the Vampire Antagonist of the film) pops
>out from hiding in the back seat of his car.
>
Which wasn't a scene in any of the books, but it does illustrate that point.
The vampires in that movie (and those books) are not *traditional* vampires,
and thus have a different definition... It's possible that they *were*
affected by the running water bit, but I read 3 or 4 of the Anne Rice
novels, and can't remember it coming into play.
Also, of course, Vampire: the Masquerade vampires aren't affected by running
water, either.
- Jerry
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 06:01:01 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Followers/DNPCs
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At 11:24 PM 10/23/97 -0500, Rick Ryker wrote:
>> I would not allow a character to take the same individual as both a
>> Follower and a DNPC. The character is either a DNPC with useful
>> Skills, a
>> Follower with Disadvantages that get him into trouble, or a fellow PC.
>>
>Then you're given up alot of great plot devices
>that you could be using against your PCs.
I don't see why.
>If a PC takes a DNPC (regardless of whether he is a follower or not),
>you (the GM) automatically get greater control of that PCs world.
Again, I don't see why.
>If you play the DNPC disadvantage to the max,
>your PCs will be begging to buy off the disadvantage
>-- even if it's for a super talented normal.
This part I agree with.
>Remember, most sidekicks get into alot of trouble.
That's what Followers' Disadvantages are for.
>Followers aren't generally supposed to be used for this purpose.
>Since the PC paid points for his follower, he has reason to get irate if
>you
>keep kidnapping his followers or putting them into all sorts of other
>perils.
The PC paid points for the Power he bought through a Focus, and still
gets that Focus taken away every so often. There's not much reason that a
Follower couldn't occasionally get kidnapped. A PC has at least as much
cause to be protective of a Follower as he does to be protective of a
raygun or magic amulet.
If the Follower happens to have a Disadvantage or three that gets him
into more trouble than average, well, that's why he gets points for those
Disads.
And if all else fails, the PC can get a "Protective of Sidekick" Psych
Limit.
>On the other hand, if a PC gets points for a DNPC
>(even an extremely talented DNPC),
>then most GMs get irate if the DNPC winds up helping the PCs
>more often than he/she gets into trouble.
Which is precisely the reason that I don't allow the same NPC to be both
a Follower and a DNPC.
>When you allow a PC to take the same person as a follower
>and as a DNPC, your implying that having this DNPC/follower around
>is beneficial a lot of the time but is also usually a great pain in the
>neck
>for all the trouble that comes with him following the PC around.
Again (and sorry for repeating myself), that's what Followers'
Disadvantages are good for. (Maybe an "Exasperated by Sidekick" Psych Limit?)
>Besides rarely in life or even in the 4 color world is anyone
>totally useful or totally disadvantageous.
You are correct, sir! That's precisely the reason why Followers have
Disadvantages, and why DNPCs may have Useful Skills.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 06:04:35 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Villain Help
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At 03:06 PM 10/23/97 -0700, Lizard wrote:
>At 10:24 AM 10/23/97 -0700, Sam Bell wrote:
>>
>>-> I wanted to ask the list for suggestions for powers. The character is a
>>-> villianous mastermind whose sfx is based on "real" stage magic, that is
>>-> gimmicks that looks at least superfically like stage magic but have real
>>-> occult power. Does anyone have any suggestions?
>
>I created precisely this villain for my WW2 game;he also had mental
>illusions. He had scarves for entangle, razor-edged playing cards for
>throwing, smoke bombs, and a small VPP based on pulling stuff out of a hat.
Sounds like a better setup for a gadgeteer based on stage magic than a
wizard based on stage magic.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 06:11:31 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: PBEMs & Nevada
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At 03:24 PM 10/23/97 -0700, Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote:
>At 10:29 AM 10/23/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote:
>> I would agree to that. Being a player in about 5 or so PBeM's
>>right now. It requires much more writing :)
>
>Lots and lots and lots of writing! I think the best PBEM GMs are the ones
>who trick their players into doing most of the writing (she said, hoping
>none of her players are on the list). ;-)
I'm going to see how it goes with my Fantasy Hero PBEM. I have two of
the players' actual turns started, and so far the writing chores seem to be
divided about 50/50. How things go when all 12+ get going (assuming they
ever do) remains to be seen.
>The one advantage to living in this hick state (other than no one thinking
>it odd that liberals such as myself have a pick-up truck, dogs, and a gun)
>is that on clear nights you can see the Milky Way away from the city
>lights. It's absolutely incredible. If you ever find yourself in Nevada,
>folks, I can tell you it's much prettier to go out in the middle of the
>desert and look up than go into a casino and look down.
>
>Speaking of which...anyone besides me ever set a Champions adventure in
>Nevada? Vegas trips or something?
I did something in the early days, when Stronghold had just recently
been published without a clear determination of where it's located (one of
the books now says northwestern New Mexico, I think). All it said at the
time was that it was in an isolated locale, and may have added that it was
in the desert or some such.
Anyway, I scanned maps of the Southwest, and finally decided to place
Stronghold at a locale about 50 miles northeast of where you are [Reno].
It just seemed to be rather poetic at the time to put all of the nation's
captured supervillains near a town called Nixon. :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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X-Sender: scm@mail.aci.net
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:04:52 -0700
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net>
Subject: Thank you!
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Thanks to everyone who's helped me come up with ideas for the Gratuitous
Links page! I've gotten some wonderful feedback, and think I have an idea
of what I'm going to do now. I don't want to divide the page up, even
though it is getting long, but what I am going to do is have both a page
like the one I have now with an icon system, as well as having a separate
page which lists links alphabetically by what's on them (i.e., a list of
all sites with character sheets, all sites with usable artwork, all sites
with sourcebooks, that type of thing). I will incorporate some of the
other suggestions I've gotten -- a pick of the month, for example -- as
well. Now if I can just get the time to update it (it's fifth currently on
the HTML to-do list.) <sigh>
Thank you to everyone who's responded, both on the list and personally!
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
www.mactyre.net
Your children will see the stars.
--Robert A. Heinlein
From: "VANSICKLE, James" <jvansickle@shl.com>
Subject: RE: Vampires vs Water
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:10:36 -0500
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I have always preferred Palladium's view on it. A vampire typically has
a phobia of water due to his vulnerability to it. Hence when he tries
to cross running water, it activates that Psych Disad. Depending on how
extreme you take it, crossing running water could entail having to
blindfold and bind the vampire to control his phobia attack or simply
carry him across.
>----------
>From: Bob Greenwade[SMTP:bob.greenwade@klock.com]
>Sent: Friday, October 24, 1997 9:05 AM
>To: champ-l@omg.org
>Subject: Re: Vampires vs Water
>
>At 04:42 PM 10/22/97 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
>>> This brings on an interesting example: a classical vampire has the
>>> Physical Limitation 'Cannot Cross Running Water' (Infrequent, Fully),
>>> but suppose the vampire were also a Vancian magician and could turn the
>>> water to ice or teleport or something, as long as he had the spells
>>> available and memorised? I'd change the limitation to Infrequent,
>>> Partial. Thoughts?
>>
>>Why go so far afield? Can a vampire in the form of a bat fly across
>>running water? Can he be carried by a follower? Dracula's
>>coach-and-four took him across bridges, one must assume -- streams are
>>not rare in Transylvania. All of these affect the disadvantage.
>>
>>As an interesting aside, look at the poem, Sir Gawain and the Green
>>Knight. The Green Knight could not, as a being of witchcraft, cross
>>running water. Instead, he pole-vaulted across the water, using his
>>sword as the pole. Clearly, the poet felt that the stricture was not to
>>*touch* running water.
>>
>>If you take the extreme form, that a character cannot cross any vertical
>>surface that passes through the bed of a flowing stream, then this is one
>>heck of a disadvantage, unless you are running in an arid place. The
>>average distance between streams in the eastern U.S. is around a mile.
>
> This brings to mind a question that's been on the back burner for quite
>a while, and I'd like to get a consensus of thought.
> An NPC motorcycle gang in a manuscript I'm working up is led by a
>vampire (the other members aren't much less savory). Of course, as a
>vampire, the leader cannot cross running water.
> The question is, could he cross rivers and streams on his Harley? Could
>he drive himself, or would one of the other gang members have to do the
>actual driving?
>---
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
>Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
>
>
>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:54:05 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:32 AM 10/24/97 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> I think now some people will be able to recognize why so many people
>> were upset over Dean Shomshak's derisive comments in The Ultimate Super
>> Mage about people of religious belief.
>
> Nice corrolary -- though he did at least keep from taking any
>"major" beliefs and turning them into a game system. If it had been a
>bastardized Judeo-Christian system, people would have been much angrier,
>IMHO. As it is, who really worships Blake's Zoas?
That's the main reason I find the book worth buying at all. I only know
about Shomshak's bigotry from the posting on this list of the comments from
the introduction to TUSM, and from his writings in Creatures of the Night:
Horror Enemies.
(It's also pretty clear, especially from his opening comments under "The
Satanic Cult Conspiracy," that he doesn't know what he's talking about when
it comes to factual matters. Any cop I've ever been in contact with and
discussed the topic with knows for an absolute fact that there really are
Satanists out there making blood sacrifices, and sometimes human
sacrifices. Shomashak wrote it off as paranoid superstitious poppycock,
and as far as I can tell did so without doing any research on the matter at
all.)
His fiction is quite good, however, and I'll take what he gives in that
realm, at least to a point. In fact, going back to the topic of
stereotypes, Rev. Gil Purdue (a stereotypical character if I ever saw one)
is one of my favorites. Who better to challenge a Christian PC, than a
sincerely misguided quasi-Christian cult leader like Purdue?
---
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Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:54:05 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:32 AM 10/24/97 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> I think now some people will be able to recognize why so many people
>> were upset over Dean Shomshak's derisive comments in The Ultimate Super
>> Mage about people of religious belief.
>
> Nice corrolary -- though he did at least keep from taking any
>"major" beliefs and turning them into a game system. If it had been a
>bastardized Judeo-Christian system, people would have been much angrier,
>IMHO. As it is, who really worships Blake's Zoas?
That's the main reason I find the book worth buying at all. I only know
about Shomshak's bigotry from the posting on this list of the comments from
the introduction to TUSM, and from his writings in Creatures of the Night:
Horror Enemies.
(It's also pretty clear, especially from his opening comments under "The
Satanic Cult Conspiracy," that he doesn't know what he's talking about when
it comes to factual matters. Any cop I've ever been in contact with and
discussed the topic with knows for an absolute fact that there really are
Satanists out there making blood sacrifices, and sometimes human
sacrifices. Shomashak wrote it off as paranoid superstitious poppycock,
and as far as I can tell did so without doing any research on the matter at
all.)
His fiction is quite good, however, and I'll take what he gives in that
realm, at least to a point. In fact, going back to the topic of
stereotypes, Rev. Gil Purdue (a stereotypical character if I ever saw one)
is one of my favorites. Who better to challenge a Christian PC, than a
sincerely misguided quasi-Christian cult leader like Purdue?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Multilingual Telepathy?
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:59:33 -0400 (EDT)
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Quick question: will telepathy allow you to read the mind
of someone whose language you don't understand? Could
and american who speaks only english read the mind of a
brazilian who speaks only portugese, for instance?
-Eric
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Multilingual Telepathy?
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:59:33 -0400 (EDT)
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Quick question: will telepathy allow you to read the mind
of someone whose language you don't understand? Could
and american who speaks only english read the mind of a
brazilian who speaks only portugese, for instance?
-Eric
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:12:19 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: The Destroyers
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Oh Ye of Many Words,
There was a group of villians which I simply and absolutely
_loved_! They were the Destroyers.
You might know them from two places:
1) Villians and Vigilantes
2) The Elementals comic book (from the 80's)
They were Electrocutioner, Rat-man, Anihilhator, Behemoth, Chryslis,
and Shapeshifter.
They were created by Bill Willingham, and I know them from
Elementals fame. I've never seen the V&V versions, or histories.
If anyone knows where I can find the V&V version (I'm dying to
hear their histories), or has a Champions conversion, lay it on me!
Eddie Fink Rules.
Jason Sullivan
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: The Destroyers
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:49:39 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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> There was a group of villians which I simply and absolutely
> _loved_! They were the Destroyers.
> You might know them from two places:
> 1) Villians and Vigilantes
> 2) The Elementals comic book (from the 80's)
> They were Electrocutioner, Rat-man, Anihilhator, Behemoth, Chryslis,
> and Shapeshifter.
> They were created by Bill Willingham, and I know them from
> Elementals fame. I've never seen the V&V versions, or histories.
Really? I have the V&V version, but never saw the comic version.
I've heard of Elementals, but couldn't find #1 when I first heard of it, and
I don't like to read incomplete stories in my comic books...
I forget what Jeff Dee's policy is about posting that kind of stuff
though, but I imagine I could dig up some info and describe them.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:10:53 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy?
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At 10:59 AM 10/24/97 -0400, Eric Burns wrote:
>Quick question: will telepathy allow you to read the mind
>of someone whose language you don't understand? Could
>and american who speaks only english read the mind of a
>brazilian who speaks only portugese, for instance?
Every source I can find makes it a GM's call.
TUM suggests that if Telepathy is normally language dependent, then
making it language exclusive is a +1/2 Advantage; and if it's normally
language exclusive, then making it language dependent is a -1/2 Limitation.
I'd lower that to +/- 1/4 myself, but then I tend to games that are
linguistically homogenous. If I allowed Telepathy in my sci-fi setting,
it'd probably be 1/2.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:20:33 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: The Dreaded TRANSFORM
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At 09:59 AM 10/24/97 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>
>>
>> >>>> Do cumulative transforms allow something to
>> >>>> be partially transformed?
>> >>>
>> >>>No.
>
>While I agree that this is the standard and simple answer, it *does*
>leave a lot of potentially dramatic effects right out.
Agreed... unless we come up with another way to do it, such as the
method we spend the rest of the post discussing. :-]
>> >> Agreed, though it would be nice if there was an Advantage (+1/2?) that
>> >>could make a Cumulative Transform into a Gradual Transform.
>> >
>> >The problem here is that you get to a stage where the effect is
>> >affecting the target without the character having paid points for it.
>> >Example: a prince being turned into a frog is going to gradually lose
>> >COM.
>>
>> How does the character not pay points for it? If I have a Major
>> Transform (prince into frog) with a +1/2 Advantage for Cumulative and
>> another +1/2 Advantage for Gradual, I'm paying 30 points per 1d6.
>
>I have thought about, as a house rule, allowing a transform to have
>partial effect once the character is into negative "BODY". Perhaps this
>would be worth a +1/4 advantage:
>
> +1/4 Partial transform
> +1/2 Cumulative Transform
> +3/4 Gradual Transform (same rules as partial transform)
> +1 Gradual Transform
I like this!
Basically, what you're saying is that if I have a Partial Transform and
use it on you, and I exceed your BODY but not twice your BODY, then you
suffer from, say, half the effect?
>Another grey area that I have found is that some GMs count BODY damage
>towards a transform, while others do not. Each seems to make sense for
>certain special effects.
Maybe I'm just being dense, but I'm not sure I'm with you here. Could
you give an illustration to help?
>> As a partial solution for the former problem, I once suggested a new
>> Adjustment Power which I called Alter. For 15 points/1d6, one could (at No
>> Range) shift a target's points from one specific Power or Characteristic to
>> another (like INT to STR). It's basically like an Aid linked to a Drain.
>
>Why invent a new power? This is just a Transfer, Usable Against
>Others(+1) Same target for both effects(-1/2) = 20/die.
Think "Meta-Power," like using Force Field rather than Armor that Costs
END. Your construct for this is good (and would probably be preferable in
most GMs' campaigns), but mine is just a tad cleaner.
Mind you, I only use Meta-Powers sparingly. But I do occasionally use
them.
>> I dunno about that. I mean, changing a small detail like the SFX of
>> one's Vulnerability is a good deal less profound than changing him into a
>> mouse.
>
>This is my reason for bringing this up in the first place. The way that
>Transform is written, it is a Major Transform to give a character 1D6
>Unluck, to make him blind or to turn him into a mouse. While this is not
>a problem for NPCs, it makes the power very awkward for PCs, especially
>if you have a lot of wargamers in your group.
So, what are you getting at here? (Not arguing, just trying to help....)
>Note that I say "wargamers" rather than "power gamers." To me,
>"wargamer" connotes someone who understands game-balance issues
>(most often from a long acquaintence with Napoleonics, board games, and
>so on) and will be fairly content with any reasonable ruling, so long as
>other PCs and the NPCs are treated the same way. "Power gamer" connotes
>people who are out to grab as much power as possible, and don't give a
>darn about game balance.
Good distinction.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Villain Help
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:20:58 -0700
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On Thursday, October 23, 1997 7:44 AM, Kim Foster wrote:
>I wanted to ask the list for suggestions for powers. The character is
a
>villianous mastermind whose sfx is based on "real" stage magic, that
is
>gimmicks that looks at least superfically like stage magic but have
real
>occult power. Does anyone have any suggestions?
After seeing all the suggestions you've gotten, I'm surprised no one
mentioned Teleportation, Only when can't be seen (-1), with Darkness,
Charges, 1 Hex (smoke bombs). This allows for the "How did he get from
the tank of water behind the curtain to become one of the stage
hands?" and throwing a smoke bomb on the floor and vanishing.
Filksinger
Filksinger
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:30:50 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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Rick Ryker wrote:
>
> >
> > I would not allow a character to take the same individual as both a
> > Follower and a DNPC. The character is either a DNPC with useful
> > Skills, a
> > Follower with Disadvantages that get him into trouble, or a fellow PC.
> >
> Then you're given up alot of great plot devices
> that you could be using against your PCs.
>
One could construct a "synthetic DNPC" out of a follower, by having the
base character take Psych Lim: protective of follower and having the
follower take Unluck. This could actually be more points than the DNPC:
10 DNPC 14- as powerful
vs
20 Psych Lim: must protect follower (very common, strong)
7 3D6 Unluck -- limited to getting into trouble at the start
of adventures(x1/2)
Note that method 2 is not only worth more points, but the follower gets
into trouble less than half the time, as opposed to 90% of the time for
the DNPC. Personally, I think that the DNPC method is more
straightforward.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:30:50 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Grey Areas
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Rick Ryker wrote:
>
> >
> > I would not allow a character to take the same individual as both a
> > Follower and a DNPC. The character is either a DNPC with useful
> > Skills, a
> > Follower with Disadvantages that get him into trouble, or a fellow PC.
> >
> Then you're given up alot of great plot devices
> that you could be using against your PCs.
>
One could construct a "synthetic DNPC" out of a follower, by having the
base character take Psych Lim: protective of follower and having the
follower take Unluck. This could actually be more points than the DNPC:
10 DNPC 14- as powerful
vs
20 Psych Lim: must protect follower (very common, strong)
7 3D6 Unluck -- limited to getting into trouble at the start
of adventures(x1/2)
Note that method 2 is not only worth more points, but the follower gets
into trouble less than half the time, as opposed to 90% of the time for
the DNPC. Personally, I think that the DNPC method is more
straightforward.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:59:08 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: The Dreaded TRANSFORM (was Grey Areas)
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>
> >>>> Do cumulative transforms allow something to
> >>>> be partially transformed?
> >>>
> >>>No.
While I agree that this is the standard and simple answer, it *does*
leave a lot of potentially dramatic effects right out.
> >>
> >> Agreed, though it would be nice if there was an Advantage (+1/2?) that
> >>could make a Cumulative Transform into a Gradual Transform.
> >
> >The problem here is that you get to a stage where the effect is
> >affecting the target without the character having paid points for it.
> >Example: a prince being turned into a frog is going to gradually lose
> >COM.
>
> How does the character not pay points for it? If I have a Major
> Transform (prince into frog) with a +1/2 Advantage for Cumulative and
> another +1/2 Advantage for Gradual, I'm paying 30 points per 1d6.
I have thought about, as a house rule, allowing a transform to have
partial effect once the character is into negative "BODY". Perhaps this
would be worth a +1/4 advantage:
+1/4 Partial transform
+1/2 Cumulative Transform
+3/4 Gradual Transform (same rules as partial transform)
+1 Gradual Transform
Another grey area that I have found is that some GMs count BODY damage
towards a transform, while others do not. Each seems to make sense for
certain special effects.
> As a partial solution for the former problem, I once suggested a new
> Adjustment Power which I called Alter. For 15 points/1d6, one could (at No
> Range) shift a target's points from one specific Power or Characteristic to
> another (like INT to STR). It's basically like an Aid linked to a Drain.
Why invent a new power? This is just a Transfer, Usable Against
Others(+1) Same target for both effects(-1/2) = 20/die.
>
> >>>Example: the Norse god Balder was Vulnerable to holly (or was it
> >>>mistletoe?). If you change his Vulnerability from holly to oak, that's
> >>>Major; if you change your oak spear to holly, that's minor; if you
> >>>change your *steel* spear to holly, then that's Major; if you change
> >>>your steel spear to look like it's made of holly, to try and make
> >>>Balder run off, then that's Cosmetic.
> >>
> >> By my system, the first would be Minor, the rest Cosmetic.
> >
> >In the first example, you're semi-permanently affecting the character,
> >definitely a Major Transform; in the second you're changing the SFX of
> >your attack. See above for my delineations.
>
> I dunno about that. I mean, changing a small detail like the SFX of
> one's Vulnerability is a good deal less profound than changing him into a
> mouse.
This is my reason for bringing this up in the first place. The way that
Transform is written, it is a Major Transform to give a character 1D6
Unluck, to make him blind or to turn him into a mouse. While this is not
a problem for NPCs, it makes the power very awkward for PCs, especially
if you have a lot of wargamers in your group.
Note that I say "wargamers" rather than "power gamers." To me,
"wargamer" connotes someone who understands game-balance issues
(most often from a long acquaintence with Napoleonics, board games, and
so on) and will be fairly content with any reasonable ruling, so long as
other PCs and the NPCs are treated the same way. "Power gamer" connotes
people who are out to grab as much power as possible, and don't give a
darn about game balance.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Black Hole
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 24 Oct 1997 13:51:54 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
BG> NND is not necessary with UAO. The defenses against UAO (generically)
BG> are of basically the same types as those for NND, and there's no other
BG> alteration that NND can give to this Power other than an increase in
BG> cost.
Yes, there is. UAO requires reasonably common defenses to be defined. NND
changes that to an unusual non-defense power for defense. Being
desolidified does not qualify as a reasonably common defense because it is
not a defense in the traditional sense. Thus, NND is required for this
effect.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
\
X-Sender: champion@mailhost.cyberhighway.net
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:01:22 -0700
From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: PBeM Styles (was: What a Timeline is truly good for)
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At 11:50 PM 10/22/97 -0700, Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote:
>At 03:39 PM 10/23/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>>okay, the "i've done it you haven't" argument is invalid.
>
>Oh, for Pete's sake. One more time....
>
>I've been lucky enough to have some wonderful conversations with other PBEM
>GMs about how we run our games, what we do to further plots, how we
>interact with players.
yadda...yadda...
:-)
One thing to keep in mind, is that there are lots of different ways to do a
PBeM. Frankly, I think Shelley has found the "way" that makes for a more
interesting "read" from the web -- because that way everyone is sort of
engaged in "collective story-telling" instead.
However, I have been in some other games where the GM tried to run it like
a FTF game, and he chose to solicit "moves" from everyone the same way a GM
would go around the table and ask "What are you doing now?" And then he
would, about once a week or so, write up a huge turn that would incorporate
what everyone "wanted to do" somehow and advance the plot a pinch. A
couple of times, he wrote in details of PCs doing things that the PCs
believed their characters WOULDN'T do, and it ruffled a few feathers a bit,
but overall it wasn't bad. Frankly, it kept some of the same feel of
"mystery" that you often have at a FTF game about where the plot is going.
However, there would often have to be lots of Questions and Answers sent
back and forth via email as players tried to gather information about what
their PCs could see, hear, smell, know, and this often took a lot of time.
Also, games like this require a GM with no life, who can spend tremendous
amounts of time writing out all kinds of details for players, so they can
react properly. And also, these kinds of games are often very short-lived
because the GM gets busy or burns out.
When I ran my New Champions game (a I want to resume some day, honest! I
just need to simplify my life some more first) I relied about 80%
(sometimes more) on players to write their views of that segment of the
plot, basically allowing them free license to "enhance" the story as they
saw fit... and then I played the role of "editor" fitting all of the
submissions together into logical sequences and making sure tense was
working, etc.
I then worked in other scenes, where villains and NPCs were interacting,
either with each other, or with the heroes, and also edited the content of
the submissions as necessary to make everything fit and make sense. My
edits and additions were my way of advancing the plot, and feeding new
information to the players. Very seldom did a player need to ask me what
the surroundings were like, or what objects were nearby, etc. The only
times I ever really ran into trouble were in combats, where I tried to
"chunk" it down into 3-4 phase bites, and play it out from there.
Aside from combat, I thought this was the most interesting way to run the
game. I was often surprised, and even more often entertained by players'
submissions. It made running the game fun for all of my players...except
one or two who got turned off by having to write so much. So very quickly,
I had all players who loved to write, and I gotta tell ya...almost every
one was a real champ about it! They made for a GREAT story! I am just
sorry I couldn't keep it going. It was a lot of fun! (hang in there
guys...I'll restart it someday....hehehehe)
Jim
P.S. - It's really good to see Shelley and Matt on this list! They have
been such great contributors to Champs on the WWW, I look forward to
reading more from them here. ;-)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:09:29 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Interspecies cooperation/competition as a campaign theme
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Vox Ludator! wrote:
>
> At 08:59 AM 10/22/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote:
> > Anyone ever sit down and try to decide why Orc's and Elves
> >would fight?
>
>
> For my own part, I also dislike arbitrarily thumping one race/culture as
> "EVIL!" unless there's some cosmological reason for it
Let us not forget whence the orc/elf and orc/dwarf conflicts are stolen
(errr....borrowed). In Middle Earth, the orcs (along with trolls and
dragons) were created by the Vala Melkor, aka Morgoth, the author of
evil. The dwarves were created by the Vala Aule, creator of smithing and
handiwork, and the elves and humans were created by Eru, who created the
world and the Ainir, who became the Valar and the Maiar. Tolkien got
the term "orc" from an Anglo-Saxon word for a minor demon.
Frankly, I think it a little silly to borrow the race and the conflicts,
and not to borrow the background to some extent. If I use orcs, I am
telling the players that they may hack and slash without moral qualm. If
I want them to have moral qualms, I use something else.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Overdoing/Underdoing Disads?
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:12:08 -0700 (PDT)
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Overdoing/Underdoing Disads?
How harsh are most of us on character disads?
Do you look for a chance at every turn to stomp on a PC using it's disads?
Do you just ignore them for the most part?
Use them as minor subplots or to flesh out a character?
Or some mix of these methods?
Should a character with a DNPC always find themselves rescuing
the DNPC from danger? Or they should they mostly find themselves just
being sidetracked into subplots with that DNPC?
Where does one draw the line on this?
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat, #Fuzionchat, #gurps, #V&V,
and #SuperHeroChat in DALnet IRC
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:16:45 -0700
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re[2]: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
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I've got USM, but have only printed out and read the first chapter or two.
What exactly is it that Deam Shomshak said that was so offensive?
Richard
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
Author: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> at DTVCCGATE
Date: 10/24/97 7:54 AM
At 01:32 AM 10/24/97 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> I think now some people will be able to recognize why so many people
>> were upset over Dean Shomshak's derisive comments in The Ultimate Super
>> Mage about people of religious belief.
>
> Nice corrolary -- though he did at least keep from taking any
>"major" beliefs and turning them into a game system. If it had been a
>bastardized Judeo-Christian system, people would have been much angrier,
>IMHO. As it is, who really worships Blake's Zoas?
That's the main reason I find the book worth buying at all. I only know
about Shomshak's bigotry from the posting on this list of the comments from
the introduction to TUSM, and from his writings in Creatures of the Night:
Horror Enemies.
(It's also pretty clear, especially from his opening comments under "The
Satanic Cult Conspiracy," that he doesn't know what he's talking about when
it comes to factual matters. Any cop I've ever been in contact with and
discussed the topic with knows for an absolute fact that there really are
Satanists out there making blood sacrifices, and sometimes human
sacrifices. Shomashak wrote it off as paranoid superstitious poppycock,
and as far as I can tell did so without doing any research on the matter at
all.)
His fiction is quite good, however, and I'll take what he gives in that
realm, at least to a point. In fact, going back to the topic of
stereotypes, Rev. Gil Purdue (a stereotypical character if I ever saw one)
is one of my favorites. Who better to challenge a Christian PC, than a
sincerely misguided quasi-Christian cult leader like Purdue?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:54:05 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.92.971024012953.20911A-100000@hilltop.ic.edu>
References: <3.0.3.32.19971023055231.006ad1b8@klock.com>
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From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Vampires vs Water
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:22:32 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
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> >
> > This brings to mind a question that's been on the back burner for quite
> >a while, and I'd like to get a consensus of thought.
> > An NPC motorcycle gang in a manuscript I'm working up is led by a
> >vampire (the other members aren't much less savory). Of course, as a
> >vampire, the leader cannot cross running water.
> > The question is, could he cross rivers and streams on his Harley? Could
> >he drive himself, or would one of the other gang members have to do the
> >actual driving?
Anybody see the Interview with a Vampire movie? I think it's
buried in my Laser Disc collection somewhere...
At the end of that movie the interviewer is crossing the Bay Bridge
in his car when suddenly Lestat (the Vampire Antagonist of the film) pops
out from hiding in the back seat of his car.
From: "VANSICKLE, James" <jvansickle@shl.com>
Subject: RE: Vampires vs Water
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:23:43 -0500
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True, but I don't think the movie showed the Vampires having a large
aversion to water (running or not). But then again, it's been years
since I have seen it so I could be wrong.
>----------
>From: Brian Wong[SMTP:rook@sanfran.infinex.com]
>Sent: Friday, October 24, 1997 1:22 PM
>To: jvansickle@shl.com
>Cc: hero-l@omg.org
>Subject: Re: Vampires vs Water
>
>> >
>> > This brings to mind a question that's been on the back burner for quite
>> >a while, and I'd like to get a consensus of thought.
>> > An NPC motorcycle gang in a manuscript I'm working up is led by a
>> >vampire (the other members aren't much less savory). Of course, as a
>> >vampire, the leader cannot cross running water.
>> > The question is, could he cross rivers and streams on his Harley?
>>Could
>> >he drive himself, or would one of the other gang members have to do the
>> >actual driving?
>
> Anybody see the Interview with a Vampire movie? I think it's
>buried in my Laser Disc collection somewhere...
>
> At the end of that movie the interviewer is crossing the Bay Bridge
>in his car when suddenly Lestat (the Vampire Antagonist of the film) pops
>out from hiding in the back seat of his car.
>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:35:10 -0700
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell)
Subject: Re: Re[2]: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
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-> From RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com Fri Oct 24 11:29:04 1997
-> >
-> > Nice corrolary -- though he did at least keep from taking any
-> >"major" beliefs and turning them into a game system. If it had been a
-> >bastardized Judeo-Christian system, people would have been much angrier,
-> >IMHO. As it is, who really worships Blake's Zoas?
->
-> That's the main reason I find the book worth buying at all. I only know
-> about Shomshak's bigotry from the posting on this list of the comments from
-> the introduction to TUSM, and from his writings in Creatures of the Night:
-> Horror Enemies.
"Bigotry"? That's a strong word. It looks to me like he just calls them like
he sees them, and you don't happen to agree.
-> (It's also pretty clear, especially from his opening comments under "The
-> Satanic Cult Conspiracy," that he doesn't know what he's talking about when
-> it comes to factual matters. Any cop I've ever been in contact with and
-> discussed the topic with knows for an absolute fact that there really are
-> Satanists out there making blood sacrifices, and sometimes human
-> sacrifices. Shomashak wrote it off as paranoid superstitious poppycock,
-> and as far as I can tell did so without doing any research on the matter at
-> all.)
Good for Shomashak. He's probably aware that despite rumors, hard evidence of
Satanic sacrifices is non-existant.
-Sam
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Black Hole
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes:
RAW> Huh? I have never interpreted "reasonably common defense" for UAO to
RAW> mean a defense power limited to the list given under adjustment
RAW> powers, which is what I infer that you mean.
Back up; that is *NOT* what I meant.
What I meant is that "being desolidified" is *NOT* a reasonably common
defense by any definition. The qualification was unnecessary and
confusing. So NND is not only appropriate, but required for the effect.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
\
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Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:32:43 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Black Hole
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At 01:51 PM 10/24/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
>BG> NND is not necessary with UAO. The defenses against UAO (generically)
>BG> are of basically the same types as those for NND, and there's no other
>BG> alteration that NND can give to this Power other than an increase in
>BG> cost.
>
>Yes, there is. UAO requires reasonably common defenses to be defined. NND
>changes that to an unusual non-defense power for defense. Being
>desolidified does not qualify as a reasonably common defense because it is
>not a defense in the traditional sense. Thus, NND is required for this
>effect.
I'm not meaning to be argrumentative here, but I have no idea what
you're trying to say, nor what distinction you're trying to make.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:38:25 +0000
Subject: Re: Re[2]: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
Reply-to: ghoyle1@airmail.net
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> On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Sam Bell wrote:
>
> >>Good for Shomashak. He's probably aware that despite rumors, hard evidence of
> >>Satanic sacrifices is non-existant.
> >>
> >> And what is your source for this?
> >
> > the latter in part quotes the New York Times:
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > DEVIL GETS MORE THAN HIS DUE?
> > By Daniel Goleman
> > New York Times
> >
> > [...]
> > Although the survey found occassional cases of lone abusers who used
> > ritualistic trappings, it found no substantiated reports of well-organized
> > satanic rings of people who sexually abuse children.
> >
> > In a survey of more than 11,000 psychiatric and police workers throughout
> > the country, conducted for the National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect,
> > researchers found more than 12,000 accusations of group cult sexual abuse
> > based on satanic ritual, but not one that investigators had been able to
> > substantiate.[...]
>
> Yeah, whenever I'm in doubt about the authenticity of a reported Satanic
> ritual, I always turn to the New York Times too.
So, I presume you have some well-substantiated cases of authentic
Satanic rituals, then? Just as those judges at Salem did? Not to
say that Satanism doesn't exist, but I don't believe human
sacrifice is a significant cause of death in this country.
And as far as I know, the New York Times has a pretty good reputation
as newspapers go.
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
From: HTC0NY@aol.com
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:45:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: re: the destroyers
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i've talked with Jeff Dee about reprinting portions of the V&V adventure
books. the material containing within is Copyright and property of the
original author (Bill Willingham in the case of the Destroyers, i believe).
FGU holds exclusive publishing rights to the Destroyers.
i believe that a Champions transliteration of the V&V stats from "Death Duel
with the Destroyers" would violate neither of these, unless you actually
copied significant test from the adventure book.
once upon a long time ago, i did transliterations. i'll see if i can find
them, and no one else posts them first, i'll try to post them.
patric
patricr@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/morpheusxx
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:47:48 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Black Hole
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
> BG> NND is not necessary with UAO. The defenses against UAO (generically)
> BG> are of basically the same types as those for NND . . .
>
> Yes, there is. UAO requires reasonably common defenses to be defined. NND
> changes that to an unusual non-defense power for defense. Being
> desolidified does not qualify as a reasonably common defense because it is
> not a defense in the traditional sense. Thus, NND is required for this
> effect.
Huh? I have never interpreted "reasonably common defense" for UAO to
mean a defense power limited to the list given under adjustment powers,
which is what I infer that you mean. Example:
Fly UAO (special effect, the opponent slowly levitates away from tbe
batlle) might have as a "reasonably common defense" any of the following
three powers: flight, teleport, growth or density increase. These would
make sense to me as GM: you can use flight or teleport "casually" to
remain where you are, and you are limited in the amount that you can
lift.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:12:11 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: The Dreaded TRANSFORM
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>
> >I have thought about, as a house rule, allowing a transform to have
> >partial effect once the character is into negative "BODY". Perhaps this
> >would be worth a +1/4 advantage:
> >
> > +1/4 Partial transform
> > +1/2 Cumulative Transform
> > +3/4 Gradual Transform (same rules as partial transform)
> > +1 Gradual Transform
>
> I like this!
> Basically, what you're saying is that if I have a Partial Transform and
> use it on you, and I exceed your BODY but not twice your BODY, then you
> suffer from, say, half the effect?
Or pro-rata, based on the number of transform-BODY done. It would depend
on the effect desired.
>
> >Another grey area that I have found is that some GMs count BODY damage
> >towards a transform, while others do not. Each seems to make sense for
> >certain special effects.
>
> Maybe I'm just being dense, but I'm not sure I'm with you here. Could
> you give an illustration to help?
Sorry, I should have been clearer. Suppose that X begins with 10 BODY,
has taken 5 BODY from a killing attack, and is now hit with a 3D6
Cumulative Transform, rolling 16. Depending on the GM and the effect of
the transform, I have seen GMs rule:
1) That X has 5 BODY remaining before bleeding starts, and 5
transform-BODY remaining before the transform takes effect.
2) That X has taken 5 BODY and 21 Transform-BODY and is transformed.
3) That ruling 2 applies only for Transform used to represent a maiming
event (you are badly scarred by the attack).
I am waffling between position 1 and 3 myself.
>
> >> As a partial solution for the former problem, I once suggested a new
> >> Adjustment Power which I called Alter. For 15 points/1d6, one could (at No
> >> Range) shift a target's points from one specific Power or Characteristic to
> >> another (like INT to STR). It's basically like an Aid linked to a Drain.
> >
> >Why invent a new power? This is just a Transfer, Usable Against
> >Others(+1) Same target for both effects(-1/2) = 20/die.
>
> Think "Meta-Power," like using Force Field rather than Armor that Costs
> END. Your construct for this is good (and would probably be preferable in
> most GMs' campaigns), but mine is just a tad cleaner.
Hmmm...I have always called these "encapsulated powers," representing a
power, advantages and limitations treated as a base power. Or, do you
mean something else by a Meta-Power?
> >
> >This is my reason for bringing this up in the first place. The way that
> >Transform is written, it is a Major Transform to give a character 1D6
> >Unluck, to make him blind or to turn him into a mouse. While this is not
> >a problem for NPCs, it makes the power very awkward for PCs, especially
> >if you have a lot of wargamers in your group.
>
> So, what are you getting at here? (Not arguing, just trying to help....)
Sorry again, my day for being unclear.
Almost everyone agrees that giving a character an uncompensated
disadvantage that the character did not possess originally is a Major
Transform. Consider two characters who want to be able to do this:
Vorpal wants a power on his sword that can cut off limbs. This is a
major transform (15/die) that results in the disadvantage:
Missing Limb (all the time, greatly) 20
Shamrock wants to be able to inflict Unluck on characters. He would like
this to come in small (1D6), medium (2D6), large (3D6), extra large (4D6)
and super-economy (5D6) sizes. Since virtually all characters have no
Unluck to begin with, all of these are Major Transforms, and cost 15/die.
Here we have reasonable powers (although Vorpal clearly belongs in a Dark
Champions game) that have the same cost, but vastly different size of
effect. This is what I meant by Transform's being a "grey area."
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:24:59 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: The Dreaded TRANSFORM
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 03:12 PM 10/24/97 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> >I have thought about, as a house rule, allowing a transform to have
>> >partial effect once the character is into negative "BODY". Perhaps this
>> >would be worth a +1/4 advantage:
>> >
>> > +1/4 Partial transform
>> > +1/2 Cumulative Transform
>> > +3/4 Gradual Transform (same rules as partial transform)
>> > +1 Gradual Transform
>>
>> I like this!
>> Basically, what you're saying is that if I have a Partial Transform and
>> use it on you, and I exceed your BODY but not twice your BODY, then you
>> suffer from, say, half the effect?
Pro-rata is what Gradual is for.
>Or pro-rata, based on the number of transform-BODY done. It would depend
>on the effect desired.
>> >Another grey area that I have found is that some GMs count BODY damage
>> >towards a transform, while others do not. Each seems to make sense for
>> >certain special effects.
>>
>> Maybe I'm just being dense, but I'm not sure I'm with you here. Could
>> you give an illustration to help?
>
>Sorry, I should have been clearer. Suppose that X begins with 10 BODY,
>has taken 5 BODY from a killing attack, and is now hit with a 3D6
>Cumulative Transform, rolling 16. Depending on the GM and the effect of
>the transform, I have seen GMs rule:
>
>1) That X has 5 BODY remaining before bleeding starts, and 5
>transform-BODY remaining before the transform takes effect.
>2) That X has taken 5 BODY and 21 Transform-BODY and is transformed.
>3) That ruling 2 applies only for Transform used to represent a maiming
>event (you are badly scarred by the attack).
Oh, I see... BODY damage already taken. Thanks. :-]
>I am waffling between position 1 and 3 myself.
I would tend to go with 1. For situations where ruling 3 might be
called for, I *might* invent a new Advantage.
>> Think "Meta-Power," like using Force Field rather than Armor that Costs
>> END. Your construct for this is good (and would probably be preferable in
>> most GMs' campaigns), but mine is just a tad cleaner.
>
>Hmmm...I have always called these "encapsulated powers," representing a
>power, advantages and limitations treated as a base power. Or, do you
>mean something else by a Meta-Power?
No, that's it. Same idea, different name.
>> >This is my reason for bringing this up in the first place. The way that
>> >Transform is written, it is a Major Transform to give a character 1D6
>> >Unluck, to make him blind or to turn him into a mouse. While this is not
>> >a problem for NPCs, it makes the power very awkward for PCs, especially
>> >if you have a lot of wargamers in your group.
>>
>> So, what are you getting at here? (Not arguing, just trying to
help....)
>
>Sorry again, my day for being unclear.
>
>Almost everyone agrees that giving a character an uncompensated
>disadvantage that the character did not possess originally is a Major
>Transform. Consider two characters who want to be able to do this:
>
>Vorpal wants a power on his sword that can cut off limbs. This is a
>major transform (15/die) that results in the disadvantage:
>
> Missing Limb (all the time, greatly) 20
>
>Shamrock wants to be able to inflict Unluck on characters. He would like
>this to come in small (1D6), medium (2D6), large (3D6), extra large (4D6)
>and super-economy (5D6) sizes. Since virtually all characters have no
>Unluck to begin with, all of these are Major Transforms, and cost 15/die.
>
>Here we have reasonable powers (although Vorpal clearly belongs in a Dark
>Champions game) that have the same cost, but vastly different size of
>effect. This is what I meant by Transform's being a "grey area."
Either you're just plain lousy at making yourself clear here, or I'm
just not seeing what your problem is. I don't think you're so lousy at
being clear, since everything else seems to be coming through clearly. So
I think I'll just leave this aspect of the discussion alone, and maybe
someone else can have a comment that will clarify it for me.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:36:24 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
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At 11:35 AM 10/24/97 -0700, Sam Bell wrote:
>
>-> From RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com Fri Oct 24 11:29:04 1997
>-> >
>-> > Nice corrolary -- though he did at least keep from taking any
>-> >"major" beliefs and turning them into a game system. If it had been a
>-> >bastardized Judeo-Christian system, people would have been much angrier,
>-> >IMHO. As it is, who really worships Blake's Zoas?
>->
>-> That's the main reason I find the book worth buying at all. I only
know
>-> about Shomshak's bigotry from the posting on this list of the comments
from
>-> the introduction to TUSM, and from his writings in Creatures of the
Night:
>-> Horror Enemies.
>
>"Bigotry"? That's a strong word. It looks to me like he just calls them like
>he sees them, and you don't happen to agree.
I basically expected a response more or less like that from you, Sam,
considering that you're narrow enough to share his views.
I wonder... is it also your view that John McAffee was just calling them
like he sees them?
>-> (It's also pretty clear, especially from his opening comments under
"The
>-> Satanic Cult Conspiracy," that he doesn't know what he's talking about
when
>-> it comes to factual matters. Any cop I've ever been in contact with and
>-> discussed the topic with knows for an absolute fact that there really are
>-> Satanists out there making blood sacrifices, and sometimes human
>-> sacrifices. Shomashak wrote it off as paranoid superstitious poppycock,
>-> and as far as I can tell did so without doing any research on the
matter at
>-> all.)
>
>Good for Shomashak. He's probably aware that despite rumors, hard evidence of
>Satanic sacrifices is non-existant.
And what is your source for this?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
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From: "Todd Hanson" <badtodd@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Vampires vs Water
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:38:25 PDT
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> Anybody see the Interview with a Vampire movie? I think it's
>buried in my Laser Disc collection somewhere...
>
> At the end of that movie the interviewer is crossing the Bay
Bridge
>in his car when suddenly Lestat (the Vampire Antagonist of the film)
pops
>out from hiding in the back seat of his car.
Actually, I think you're reading more into this scene than was there. I
don't remember it as having anything to do with the fact that they were
going over a bridge.
In fact.. in that same movie, didn't they take a long voyage on a ship
to France?
Todd
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:39:55 -0700
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On Friday, October 24, 1997 11:02 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
<snip>
> (It's also pretty clear, especially from his opening comments
under "The
>Satanic Cult Conspiracy," that he doesn't know what he's talking
about when
>it comes to factual matters. Any cop I've ever been in contact with
and
>discussed the topic with knows for an absolute fact that there really
are
>Satanists out there making blood sacrifices, and sometimes human
>sacrifices. Shomashak wrote it off as paranoid superstitious
poppycock,
>and as far as I can tell did so without doing any research on the
matter at
>all.)
I _did_ do some research on the topic. I found this much: 1) No one I
could find who made claims that there are real Satanists making human
sacrifices in the US can point to an actual, verifiable case (with the
possible exception of the case of the Manson family), and 2) The FBI
denies that it has evidence showing them to exist.
A few years ago, a former FBI agent claimed to know about such things,
and claimed that the FBI was covering it up/ ignoring it. He claimed
to know where bodies were buried that had been sacrificed in such a
manner. The newspapers made a big deal about it. Most of the people
that I found who claim to "know" about such things pointed to him,
when they gave me anything at all concrete.
The thing they ignored was that the newspapers printed hasty (and
quiet) retractions when investigation showed not one body at any of
the sites. According to the rather skimpy reporting after that point,
not one piece of evidence he claimed to have panned out.
Filksinger
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:53:46 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Minimum costs
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >>>>> "CT" == Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> writes:
>
> CT> Okay, perhaps I have been playing with some more restrained than
> CT> average players, but Ive never seen the need for minimum costs on most
> CT> powers. I just have people define a minimum level that NNDs require
> CT> the defense for (so you cant buy 1 of each defense and expect to bounce
> CT> the NNDs that target those).
>
> Well, the primary reason for minimum costs is to prevent "defense abuse"
> against NNDs. Spread about 10 points around various and sundry defenses
> and you can attain invulnerability against just about any NND -- except for
> the minimum cost requirements. These are primarilly for use in superheroic
> games.
>
> For heroic-level games in which powers are available, minimum costs may be
> waived... but the GM should be careful when he does so.
I must admit that when I posted the original question, defences was not what I
was origionally looking at. Tunneling, teleport, and flying all have minimum costs.
They go on, in each power, to describe various add on's like extra mass, extra non
combat multiples and, in the case of tunneling, extra defence that can be bored through.
The question really should have been, are you limited to the "20 pts for 10 inches" to
make the "20 pts minimum cost" as appossed to "10 pts for 5 inches, x2 non combat,
+100kg" to make the "20 pts minimum cost". Other powers may have the same "options"
open to them.
I throw this back into the ring.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:05:23 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Setting a power level and making sure the PC is 3D
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Rick Ryker wrote:
>
> I remember one campaign we had that was set in a post-holocaust
> world.
> We were para-normals who were about to discover our powers.
> The GM had us create DI characters on a 75 point base.
> Mine was a tough guy private eye type.
> We spent about two episodes tracking down the bad guys DI style
> before we each had our "accidents".
> The result was some very well rounded characters that had things
> that
> they could do even if their powers were temporarily off.
>
> -RICK
-- I played in a campaign that was much the same except it was still the real world
and the PC got together to fight off a group of alien invaders. (Much like the old TV
series, The Invaders, that I have only just started to watch). We started of as 75
point normals then underwent some sort of change that gave an extra 75 points sometime
during the campaign.
We have found in many years of playing that, while the first couple of
characters were very flat and combat orientated, a large number of points are used to
give the character flavour in the way of non combat skills, perks and talents (as much
as 40-50 out of 250). Time, and opportunity, will tell.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:08:06 -0700
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell)
Subject: Re: Re[2]: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
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-> From bob.greenwade@klock.com Fri Oct 24 15:48:44 1997
-> >
-> >"Bigotry"? That's a strong word. It looks to me like he just calls them like
-> >he sees them, and you don't happen to agree.
->
-> I basically expected a response more or less like that from you, Sam,
-> considering that you're narrow enough to share his views.
-> I wonder... is it also your view that John McAffee was just calling them
-> like he sees them?
Not wanting to cry 'bigot' at the first opportunity makes ME narrow-minded? Right.
-> >
-> >Good for Shomashak. He's probably aware that despite rumors, hard evidence of
-> >Satanic sacrifices is non-existant.
->
-> And what is your source for this?
Lot's. A good place to start is the AFU archives:
http://www.urbanlegends.com/religion/satanic_groups_debunking.html
and
http://www.urbanlegends.com/religion/satanic_rings_debunked.html
the latter in part quotes the New York Times:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
DEVIL GETS MORE THAN HIS DUE?
By Daniel Goleman
New York Times
[...]
Although the survey found occassional cases of lone abusers who used
ritualistic trappings, it found no substantiated reports of well-organized
satanic rings of people who sexually abuse children.
In a survey of more than 11,000 psychiatric and police workers throughout
the country, conducted for the National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect,
researchers found more than 12,000 accusations of group cult sexual abuse
based on satanic ritual, but not one that investigators had been able to
substantiate.[...]
Previous smaller studies conducted by the Michigan State Police, the
Virginia Crime Commission, the Office of the Attorney General in Utah, and a
study by the British government had similar findings.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now why don't you post your sources, Bob. Or are you just blowing smoke?
-Sam
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:30:34 -0500 (CDT)
From: Devan <rlewis@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
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On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Sam Bell wrote:
>>Good for Shomashak. He's probably aware that despite rumors, hard evidence of
>>Satanic sacrifices is non-existant.
>>
>> And what is your source for this?
>
> the latter in part quotes the New York Times:
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> DEVIL GETS MORE THAN HIS DUE?
> By Daniel Goleman
> New York Times
>
> [...]
> Although the survey found occassional cases of lone abusers who used
> ritualistic trappings, it found no substantiated reports of well-organized
> satanic rings of people who sexually abuse children.
>
> In a survey of more than 11,000 psychiatric and police workers throughout
> the country, conducted for the National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect,
> researchers found more than 12,000 accusations of group cult sexual abuse
> based on satanic ritual, but not one that investigators had been able to
> substantiate.[...]
Yeah, whenever I'm in doubt about the authenticity of a reported Satanic
ritual, I always turn to the New York Times too.
-- D
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:52:19 +1000
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Subject: Re: Re[2]: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
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At 08:30 PM 10/24/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Yeah, whenever I'm in doubt about the authenticity of a reported Satanic
>ritual, I always turn to the New York Times too.
>
>-- D
>
>
look, can we quit this? the fact is that satanic hysteria, along with anti- D&d and anti rock music rationales, are strong forces in the neglect of proper study into the nature of teen suicide and simmilar problems. because of stupidity like this, more people die than they otherwise should. Instead of looking for 'signs of depression or alienation' some parents look for 'signs of satanic culthood', and other ridiculous rubbish.
If anyone here wants to 'blame it on the boogieman', or blindly follow the lead of so called 'religious man' or 'cult cop' for whatever reason, kindly bugger off to 'arts.rec.unsubstantiated.fundamentalist.trash.com'.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Black Hole
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
BG> I'm not meaning to be argrumentative here, but I have no idea what
BG> you're trying to say, nor what distinction you're trying to make.
Normally, if you put UAO on a power you must define a reasonably common
defense or set of defenses which protect against it.
"Being desolidified" (more properly speaking, "having no mass") does not
qualify as "a reasonably common defense or set of defenses".
Therefore, in order for "being desolidified" to be the defense against this
particular UAO Extradimensional Movement, NND is required.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
\
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:20:04 -0700
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
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At 03:36 PM 10/24/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 11:35 AM 10/24/97 -0700, Sam Bell wrote:
>>Good for Shomashak. He's probably aware that despite rumors, hard
evidence of
>>Satanic sacrifices is non-existant.
>
> And what is your source for this?
>
Everyone whose actually studied the issue.
Name one. An actual, honest-to-Satan human sacrifice would be
national news. You (or someone) claimed that cops "know" these things
happen, so why hasn't it made the headlines? They 'know' it happens,
thus, there have been arrests, charges filed, evidence produced,
convictions handed down -- and we all missed it? We, in the role
playing hobby, the hobby usually mentioned in one breath with
'satanism' and 'weird cults'? Yeah, right. Pull the other one, it's
got bells on.
The whole 'satanic cult' nonsense was made up by shady Christian
fundementalists (a redundancy) and quack 'recovered memory'
psychiatrists. It is a FRAUD -- absolutely, totally, and completely.
(Occasionally, someone who commits murder will whine about Satan in
order to get off on an insanity plea, but such rarely fools even the
sort of people who can't get out of jury duty.)
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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 14:14:36 +1000
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Subject: Re: Re[2]: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
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At 11:48 PM 10/24/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Guy Hoyle wrote:
>
>>
>> So, I presume you have some well-substantiated cases of authentic
>> Satanic rituals, then? Just as those judges at Salem did? Not to
>> say that Satanism doesn't exist, but I don't believe human
>> sacrifice is a significant cause of death in this country.
>
>Among my many acquaintences over the years, I have known three or four
>avowed Satan-worshippers. These people averred a belief in both Yahwe
>and Satan and opted to worship the latter, so I think that the term
>"Satanist" can be reasonably applied. These people claimed to have
>conducted animal sacrifices, and in one case to have performed a human
>sacrifice, but the method claimed was not what one would expect.
>
and was false. . .does the phrase 'try-hard goth' mean anything to you?
there are numerous satanic cults- such as the processans, who deriverd
from scientology. But they\irs (and others) existance has NOTHING to do with the mythology of the anti-satanist movement.
>The girl in question, who IIRC was angry with her ex-lover because he was
>now sleeping with her mother, claimed to have worked a ritual devoting
>him to Satan. Within a week, he was killed in an automobile accident,
>and she asserted that fulfilled the ritual; Satan claimed his own.
>
uh-huh? and this is proof of what? dopeyness? none of this validates any
sort of 'cult cop' mentality, except as a back-drop to a gratifying real-
life power-fantasy. .
>Please note that I have no independent confirmation of any of the events.
>She could have been putting me on, or telling the truth. I merely record
>the conversation as accurately as my memory will allow.
>
okay, i've had several conversations where people say "satanism
doesn't exist in any valid way, with reguards to how it is portrayed". .
so. ...
>As a practical matter, there are enough unsolved, apparently motiveless
>murders and disappearances every year that one cannot exclude the
>possibility that some are due to human sacrifice. Frankly, I find the
>possibility neither more incredible, nor more horrifying, than I find
>the well-authenticated cases of Ted Bundy and Gary Heidnick.
>
yes, and they could be alien abductees. . .or maybe they got superpowers?
the point is that none of the numbers involved match up to even the most
conservative estimates given by 'cult cops' and 'troubles citizens'.
There is no satanic conspicacy, no recruiting, and nothing which
genuinley validates the original point of contention.
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:20:14 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Vampires vs Water
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At 06:03 AM 10/23/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> I think that the explanation (at least, the real-world explanation) is a
>little simpler, but somewhat more esoteric, than that.
> Though we don't see the connection much in our own society, running
>water is a traditional symbol of the flow of life. Vampires are supposedly
>a form of "undead," and so they cannot "cross the flow of life," any more
>than a beam of darkness can penetrate light (remember, I'm talking
>real-world here).
Close, though it's more accurate to depict running water, sunlight, garlic,
etc. as symbols of health and purity, therefore coming into conflict with
the vampire's nature as a metaphor for disease (plague in medieval Europe,
more like consumption in Victorian era ... in the modern era, the vampire
seems to have become a metaphor for *venereal* disease, the ramifications of
which I'll leave to the reader).
For my own part, I've always interpreted the ban against running water as a
ban against *voluntarily* crossing running water, even over a bridge, in a
vehicle, etc. Thus, Dracula's gypsy servants can carry his coffin (with him
inert inside) over streams, but were it night, he couldn't ride the carriage
over the bridge.
==
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:20:16 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Interspecies cooperation/competition as a campaign theme
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At 11:09 AM 10/24/97 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
>Let us not forget whence the orc/elf and orc/dwarf conflicts are stolen
>(errr....borrowed). In Middle Earth, the orcs (along with trolls and
>dragons) were created by the Vala Melkor, aka Morgoth, the author of
>evil. The dwarves were created by the Vala Aule, creator of smithing and
>handiwork, and the elves and humans were created by Eru, who created the
>world and the Ainir, who became the Valar and the Maiar. Tolkien got
>the term "orc" from an Anglo-Saxon word for a minor demon.
>
>Frankly, I think it a little silly to borrow the race and the conflicts,
>and not to borrow the background to some extent. If I use orcs, I am
>telling the players that they may hack and slash without moral qualm. If
>I want them to have moral qualms, I use something else.
But most fantasy games DON'T borrow these races from Tolkien, at least not
directly. Yes, the word "orc" is taken from Middle Earth, but an AD&D or
Warhammer orc (ork) is not really the same as Tolkien's version -- much in
the same way that Tolkien himself borrowed the words "elf", "dwarf", and
"goblin" and "orc", then used them in quite a different fashion from the
original source.
--
>
>--
><------------------------------------------------------->
>Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
>Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
>http://www.erols.com/robtwest
>
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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:20:19 -0500
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Vampires vs Water
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At 11:22 AM 10/24/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote:
> Anybody see the Interview with a Vampire movie? I think it's
>buried in my Laser Disc collection somewhere...
>
> At the end of that movie the interviewer is crossing the Bay Bridge
>in his car when suddenly Lestat (the Vampire Antagonist of the film) pops
>out from hiding in the back seat of his car.
Bad example, since Anne Rice basically tossed the book on vampires. IIRC,
her vampires aren't bothered by crosses or garlic, for example (I seem to
recall Louis attempting confessional and ending up killing the priest).
And of course, her vampires pull the modern-day smoke-n-burn reaction to
sunlight, while traditional vampires merely became weak and/or comatose
during daylight hours.
--
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From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:09:47 -0700
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Subject: Re: Unbalanced Mental Power
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Opal wrote:
>
> h >
> h > If someone gets a telepathy, and very good mind scan and ego
> h > attack
> h > for example. He can make a telepathy link with someone of his team,
> h > and
> h > then away from the danger of the battle, and receiving information
> h > about
> h > the battle from his partner he could just mind scan and ego attack any
> h > opponent his partner could detect, being almost completely safe.
Mental powers require "line of sight", which I (and I think most other
GMs) interpret to mean "must be able to perceive the target with a
targeting sense." Telepathy is not a sense, let alone a targeting sense.
What you want is Clairsentience: normal vision, Limited Power: requires a
successful ECV roll (-1). I would give breakout rolls at each increment
on the time chart as well. The reason that I would give such a large
limitation is that the target, not the user, is in control of what is
seen and when.
>
> It's mechanicall correct (though there might be some question as
> to what a telepathic link really lets you do - you might have
> to Mind Scan the entire area, rather than getting location info
> from the link) but I don't think much of the idea for a super
> hero game.
>
Actually, this makes one heck of a villain. I built a character on 175
points along these lines, and it made for a nice case of antinomy. My
apologies if I already mentioned it in that thread, but my records
indicate that I did not.
The villain used mental powers to get revenge on those he held
responsible for his quadruplegia, his wife's death and his son's mental
retardation (all the result of industrial accidents -- did I mention 5D6
Unluck?). He combined fully-invisible EGO Drain, Suppress Mental Defense
and Mind Control, exercised through EGO-based Clairsentience, to compel
his victims to commit murders and other crimes in front of witnesses, and
compelled the only witness who could harm him to commit suicide by
driving off the Palisades in view of one of the PCs, who almost died
trying to save her.
If you wonder how he did this on ~175 points, his powers were mainly in
an EC, most took Extra Time(5 min) and all (including the EC pool) were
IAF Bulky Fragile(-1 3/4). He got max points for Physical Limitation,
and was Dependent on the medication that also formed the basis of his
powers (the IAF was an IV drip). He was entitled to the Bulky limitation
on his focus, because the arrangement made it difficult for him to be
moved.
This posed a neat problem in antinomy for those characters with codes
against killing. If they deprived him of his focus, he would probably
die. If they did not, he would probably kill other victims. There is no
legal precident concerning Mind Control in my world, and attempting to
set one would require several characters to violate their Secret IDs.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:48:26 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Guy Hoyle wrote:
>
> So, I presume you have some well-substantiated cases of authentic
> Satanic rituals, then? Just as those judges at Salem did? Not to
> say that Satanism doesn't exist, but I don't believe human
> sacrifice is a significant cause of death in this country.
Among my many acquaintences over the years, I have known three or four
avowed Satan-worshippers. These people averred a belief in both Yahwe
and Satan and opted to worship the latter, so I think that the term
"Satanist" can be reasonably applied. These people claimed to have
conducted animal sacrifices, and in one case to have performed a human
sacrifice, but the method claimed was not what one would expect.
The girl in question, who IIRC was angry with her ex-lover because he was
now sleeping with her mother, claimed to have worked a ritual devoting
him to Satan. Within a week, he was killed in an automobile accident,
and she asserted that fulfilled the ritual; Satan claimed his own.
Please note that I have no independent confirmation of any of the events.
She could have been putting me on, or telling the truth. I merely record
the conversation as accurately as my memory will allow.
As a practical matter, there are enough unsolved, apparently motiveless
murders and disappearances every year that one cannot exclude the
possibility that some are due to human sacrifice. Frankly, I find the
possibility neither more incredible, nor more horrifying, than I find
the well-authenticated cases of Ted Bundy and Gary Heidnick.
>--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: The Dreaded TRANSFORM
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 02:43:02 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Friday, October 24, 1997 4:03 PM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 03:12 PM 10/24/97 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
<snip>
>>Almost everyone agrees that giving a character an uncompensated
>>disadvantage that the character did not possess originally is a
Major
>>Transform. Consider two characters who want to be able to do this:
>>
>>Vorpal wants a power on his sword that can cut off limbs. This is a
>>major transform (15/die) that results in the disadvantage:
>>
>> Missing Limb (all the time, greatly) 20
>>
>>Shamrock wants to be able to inflict Unluck on characters. He would
like
>>this to come in small (1D6), medium (2D6), large (3D6), extra large
(4D6)
>>and super-economy (5D6) sizes. Since virtually all characters have
no
>>Unluck to begin with, all of these are Major Transforms, and cost
15/die.
>>
>>Here we have reasonable powers (although Vorpal clearly belongs in a
Dark
>>Champions game) that have the same cost, but vastly different size
of
>>effect. This is what I meant by Transform's being a "grey area."
>
> Either you're just plain lousy at making yourself clear here, or
I'm
>just not seeing what your problem is. I don't think you're so lousy
at
>being clear, since everything else seems to be coming through
clearly. So
>I think I'll just leave this aspect of the discussion alone, and
maybe
>someone else can have a comment that will clarify it for me.
I believe what he is trying to say is that Major Transform covers too
many things and too broad a power level.
With most attacks, to get a greater effect I need to spend more
points. This is not true of Transform, once you reach the Major level.
The degree of change _and_ the degree of usefulness of that change are
completely independent of the number of dice of Major Transform I
possess. A Major Transform that has a relatively small effect on the
target (1d6 Unluck) and a Major Transform that has a large effect on
the target (6d6 Unluck) cost the same amount. If I am a villain, the
Major Transform "Human into Statue" is less generally useful than the
Major Transform "Human into Statuette" (since I can move a statuette
easily) which itself is generally less useful than Major Transform
"Human into Willing Slave." However, they cost exactly the same
amount.
I sometimes think that Transform, especially Major Transform, should
have a modifier. For -20 points, a minor problem (that still requires
a Major Transform), i.e. 1d6 Unluck, Fear of Heights, uncommon,
moderate. For -10 points, a non-disabling, not especially useful, but
significant transformation, i.e. 3d6 Unluck, Claustrophobia, common,
strong. For +0 points, a disabling or generally useful transformation,
i.e. "Human into Statue" or "Human into Friend". (Note that "friend"
is not a slave, and may still find it necessary to beat you up or
arrest you; he just likes you.) For +10 points, an especially useful
Transformation, such as "Human to Unwilling Slave" (be careful how you
phrase those commands, OK?). Lastly, for +20 points, a very useful
Transformation, such as "Human into Willing Slave".
These are just off the top of my head, mind you, but it might not be a
bad idea.
Filksinger
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 16:11:36 +0600
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Funky Powers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> I would like to start discussing how one may represent some of
>the funkier power possibilities in Champions.
> Yes, ol' AaM has decided to pose that question which will (undoubtly)
>be followed by a tetaillion other posts, which will spawn yet more and more
>posts...
>
> I'll start with two power/effects:
>
> Atom-man is a hero made of two normal personas, teenage Ronald Roni
>and scientist Doctor Simmians. Together they form 'ATOM MAN,' composite hero.
>
Okay, "Atom-man" (I think you're allowed to call him Firestorm, AaM) has a
Multiform to one of his two lesser forms... Probably the Doc, because he
has more skills (i.e. is worth more points than Ronnie). Then the Doc buys
Duplication, Always On, to get Ronnie as another physical body. This way,
when not in "Atom-man" form, he'll always be both normals.
The only problem I see with this is that it still doesn't let you simulate
the ability to combine at range like the real Atom-man... er, Firestorm,
could. Possibly, a long range Teleport, only to bring one Duplicate to the
other... which would be bought UAO by whichever normal you want to have the
most points... that way, he could involuntarily combine with the other
normal guy, like in the comics. Of course, if you wanted both of them to
involuntarily combine, they would both need the power... hmmm. Well, I
knew this was going to be expensive...
Also, get Mind Link for the Duplicate normal forms... A Psych Lim for the
Hero form to say that the personality that caused the recombination is in
control... the other one is just a "voice" in their head... and,
unfortunately, I don't know what Firestorm could *do* beyond that. My
brother had the comics, and I haven't read them in a very long time. The
Super-Powers Team cartoon suggests a huge variable Transform,
Desolidification, Flight (I know he could do *this* one), LS: for space, and
EB. I don' know for sure.
Good luck for this... but beware. He's not going to be *close* to 250pts!
And that Green Knight... <shudders> You're on your own! : )
- Jerry
Comments: Authenticated sender is <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca>
From: "Vance Scott" <vances@sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:18:59 +0000
Subject: Re: Overdoing/Underdoing Disads?
Reply-to: vances@sympatico.ca
Priority: normal
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> Overdoing/Underdoing Disads?
>
>How harsh are most of us on character disads?
Not very harsh.
> Do you look for a chance at every turn to stomp on a PC using it's disads?
Not even close.
> Do you just ignore them for the most part?
Pretty much. The nature of the weakness determines how often I'll use
it. I put an effort into keeping track of those weaknesses that can't
be ignored. Enrageds, Vulnerabilities, etc. I reward players for good
role play partially by how well they stayed inside their psych lims.
I use Hunteds as more of a personal grudge against a particular hero
than a mechanical die roll where they show up to pound the hero.
> Use them as minor subplots or to flesh out a character?
Of course.
> Or some mix of these methods?
As stated above.
>
> Should a character with a DNPC always find themselves rescuing
> the DNPC from danger? Or they should they mostly find themselves just
> being sidetracked into subplots with that DNPC?
I'd say no. Personally I limit my player occurance of DNPCs, or
hunteds to an 8- to avoid that problem. Brainstorm a variety of ways
you can exploit a DNPC rather than just using the same old hostage
situation. Your DNPC complains that the hero doesn't spend enough
time with her, and maybe suspects he's keeping someone on the side,
etc.
> Where does one draw the line on this?
The point where it becomes stale, or boring. It's time to move in a
new direction when those feelings are evoked.
Vance Scott
Vanquisher of all foes.
Comments: Authenticated sender is <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca>
From: "Vance Scott" <vances@sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:19:00 +0000
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy?
Reply-to: vances@sympatico.ca
CC: hero-l@emerald.omg.org
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> Quick question: will telepathy allow you to read the mind
> of someone whose language you don't understand? Could
> and american who speaks only english read the mind of a
> brazilian who speaks only portugese, for instance?
>
> -Eric
Examining my own thought process I'd have to say no, or at the very
best a jumbled message. Language provides form and structure to
thoughts, just because a person can read my mind does mean they'll be
able to understand it. My thought processes are carried out in
english without understanding that language a person would only pick
up the underlying emotions that accompany the words, and would have
to deduce their meaning.
Vance Scott
Vanquisher of all foes.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 06:35:39 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Black Hole
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 10:33 PM 10/24/97 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
>BG> I'm not meaning to be argrumentative here, but I have no idea what
>BG> you're trying to say, nor what distinction you're trying to make.
>
>Normally, if you put UAO on a power you must define a reasonably common
>defense or set of defenses which protect against it.
>
>"Being desolidified" (more properly speaking, "having no mass") does not
>qualify as "a reasonably common defense or set of defenses".
>
>Therefore, in order for "being desolidified" to be the defense against this
>particular UAO Extradimensional Movement, NND is required.
I still don't get it. If "being desolidified" isn't "reasonably common"
for purposes of UAO, then what does NND bring into the picture?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 06:41:44 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: The Dreaded TRANSFORM
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:43 AM 10/25/97 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>I believe what he is trying to say is that Major Transform covers too
>many things and too broad a power level.
>
>With most attacks, to get a greater effect I need to spend more
>points. This is not true of Transform, once you reach the Major level.
>
>The degree of change _and_ the degree of usefulness of that change are
>completely independent of the number of dice of Major Transform I
>possess. A Major Transform that has a relatively small effect on the
>target (1d6 Unluck) and a Major Transform that has a large effect on
>the target (6d6 Unluck) cost the same amount. If I am a villain, the
>Major Transform "Human into Statue" is less generally useful than the
>Major Transform "Human into Statuette" (since I can move a statuette
>easily) which itself is generally less useful than Major Transform
>"Human into Willing Slave." However, they cost exactly the same
>amount.
Hm. Whether this is what the other person was saying or not, this is
certainly a legitimate problem.
Yes, what is needed is either the modification elements you gave (not
bad for just off the top of your head), or another level of Transform,
which I suppose we could call Profound, at 20 points per die.
Or both.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 06:44:29 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Unbalanced Mental Power
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:09 PM 10/24/97 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
>> h > If someone gets a telepathy, and very good mind scan and ego
>> h > attack
>> h > for example. He can make a telepathy link with someone of his team,
>> h > and
>> h > then away from the danger of the battle, and receiving information
>> h > about
>> h > the battle from his partner he could just mind scan and ego attack any
>> h > opponent his partner could detect, being almost completely safe.
>
>
>Mental powers require "line of sight", which I (and I think most other
>GMs) interpret to mean "must be able to perceive the target with a
>targeting sense." Telepathy is not a sense, let alone a targeting sense.
>What you want is Clairsentience: normal vision, Limited Power: requires a
>successful ECV roll (-1). I would give breakout rolls at each increment
>on the time chart as well. The reason that I would give such a large
>limitation is that the target, not the user, is in control of what is
>seen and when.
I guess you missed the part where the mentalist targets the victims with
Mind Scan. (It wasn't in the above-quoted text, after all.) :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 06:51:17 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 06:57 AM 10/25/97 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
>The nightmare of the fundamentalists, that there is a huge conspiracy of
>Satan-worshippers who engage in human sacrifice on a regular basis, is
>IMHO an extraordinary claim, and I have seen nothing to make me take it
>seriously. The possibility that human sacrifice happens sporadically is
>IMHO a fairly ordinary claim in view of the verifiable horrors that
>surround us.
Seeker makes a valid point in "Watchers of the Dragon," that one should
not dismiss an extraaordinary claim just because it's extraordinary (if I
may use a paraphrase to match your wording).
>If it makes you feel safer or happier to deny that it is even possible,
>that is your privilege. I hope that you are correct. In the long run,
>neither of our opinions matter on this subject.
Which is why I'm largely dropping this thread.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 06:57:43 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote:
>
> > These people claimed to have
> >conducted animal sacrifices, and in one case to have performed a human
> >sacrifice, but the method claimed was not what one would expect.
> >
>
> and was false. . .does the phrase 'try-hard goth' mean anything to you?
I think that I apprehend the phrase, but the term "gothic" in the present
context was fifteen years in the future when this conversation occurred.
I am aware (as I stated later in my post) of the possibility that my leg
was being pulled, but I recount the story because the thread reminded me
of it, and as a reminder that there are people out there who have no
moral qualms about such stuff.
> there are numerous satanic cults- such as the processans, who deriverd
> from scientology. But they\irs (and others) existance has NOTHING to do with the mythology of the anti-satanist movement.
Well, *there* is a blanket statement for you! You remind me of a friend
who was a rabbinical student who stated that the biblical account of the
Passion had to be false, because anyone as exalted as the Sanhedrin is
incapable of committing serious sin.
I have seen no proof that it occurs, but I will not make unprovable
blanket statements that it does not. The rule of the skeptic is not that
extraordinary claims should be ruled out, but that they require
extraordinary proof, and require substantial proof to be seriously
entertained. Ordinary claims require ordinary proof, but one can take
them seriously on very slight evidence.
The nightmare of the fundamentalists, that there is a huge conspiracy of
Satan-worshippers who engage in human sacrifice on a regular basis, is
IMHO an extraordinary claim, and I have seen nothing to make me take it
seriously. The possibility that human sacrifice happens sporadically is
IMHO a fairly ordinary claim in view of the verifiable horrors that
surround us.
If it makes you feel safer or happier to deny that it is even possible,
that is your privilege. I hope that you are correct. In the long run,
neither of our opinions matter on this subject.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 07:24:00 -0700
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 04:08 PM 10/24/97 -0700, Sam Bell wrote:
>
>-> From bob.greenwade@klock.com Fri Oct 24 15:48:44 1997
>-> >
>-> >"Bigotry"? That's a strong word. It looks to me like he just calls
them like
>-> >he sees them, and you don't happen to agree.
>->
>-> I basically expected a response more or less like that from you, Sam,
>-> considering that you're narrow enough to share his views.
>-> I wonder... is it also your view that John McAffee was just calling
them
>-> like he sees them?
>
>Not wanting to cry 'bigot' at the first opportunity makes ME
narrow-minded? Right.
No. Unwaveringly insisting that a certain demographic is inherently
inferior to yourself, as you did quite openly during as previous discussion
on this topic was winding down, makes you narrow-minded. It is, after all,
the very definition of bigoted.
And I noticed you dodged the point about McAffee.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:04:40 -0700
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: hobbitz
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>I am reasonably sure that "hobbit" is pure Tolkien.
Actually is an old english word like brownie and pixie, so its more or less
public domain, but the connection in the public eye with Tolkien is so
strong, they probably would have a court case if you used it.
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:02:31 -0700
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com
Subject: Re: Funky Powers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> >
> > Atom-man is a hero made of two normal personas, teenage Ronald Roni
> >and scientist Doctor Simmians. Together they form 'ATOM MAN,' composite hero.
> >
> Okay, "Atom-man" (I think you're allowed to call him Firestorm, AaM) has a
> Multiform to one of his two lesser forms... Probably the Doc, because he
> has more skills (i.e. is worth more points than Ronnie). Then the Doc buys
> Duplication, Always On, to get Ronnie as another physical body. This way,
> when not in "Atom-man" form, he'll always be both normals.
>
> The only problem I see with this is that it still doesn't let you simulate
> the ability to combine at range like the real Atom-man... er, Firestorm,
> could.
Duplication based on ECV? Then get mind link, only for using voluntary mental
powers...
I'm not sure if that's 100% legal, but it sounds good. I'll have to check it
against the book...
--
Rook
Also known as Arcady on #herochat, #Fuzionchat, #gurps, #V&V,
and #SuperHeroChat in DALnet IRC
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:13:35 -0500 (EST)
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From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
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Subject: Funky Powers
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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:09:41 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Funky Powers
To: Champs-l@omg.org
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I would like to start discussing how one may represent some of
the funkier power possibilities in Champions.
Yes, ol' AaM has decided to pose that question which will (undoubtly)
be followed by a tetaillion other posts, which will spawn yet more and more
posts...
I'll start with two power/effects:
Atom-man is a hero made of two normal personas, teenage Ronald Roni
and scientist Doctor Simmians. Together they form 'ATOM MAN,' composite hero.
Garn Green was exposed to some odd radiation and chemicals when in
an unfortunate car crash. When he awoke, his head was lying a good fifteen
feet away. Snatching his head off the ground, he ran away from the police and
EMT crews that were arriving on the scene. He found he could detach and
reattach hsi body parts at will; they would be both animate (capable of
normal function, able to 'crawl' back if necessary) and could transmit
sensory information back to him (i'll just stick my head in this tree here
and wait for Commandad Chaos to rob the bank!). While he wouldn't bleed
when he voulantarily severed a limb, he could still feel pain (*ouch*! My
foot!). Donning a suit of green armor, a green sword, and some green hair
dye, he roams the streets as the incrdulous Green Knight... (I'll bite
your knee caps off! It's only a flesh wound!).
I believe I've seen both of these powers used in comics (especially
the latter with cyborgs and robots).
Any clue? :) Suprise me.
...and she said she liked my eyes, so I gave her one,
Jason Sullivan
--Boundary_(ID_+g9HbA2h2UuClskTGXh3+Q)--
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 13:53:32 -0500 (EST)
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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:09:41 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
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Subject: Funky Powers
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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:09:41 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Funky Powers
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I would like to start discussing how one may represent some of
the funkier power possibilities in Champions.
Yes, ol' AaM has decided to pose that question which will (undoubtly)
be followed by a tetaillion other posts, which will spawn yet more and more
posts...
I'll start with two power/effects:
Atom-man is a hero made of two normal personas, teenage Ronald Roni
and scientist Doctor Simmians. Together they form 'ATOM MAN,' composite hero.
Garn Green was exposed to some odd radiation and chemicals when in
an unfortunate car crash. When he awoke, his head was lying a good fifteen
feet away. Snatching his head off the ground, he ran away from the police and
EMT crews that were arriving on the scene. He found he could detach and
reattach hsi body parts at will; they would be both animate (capable of
normal function, able to 'crawl' back if necessary) and could transmit
sensory information back to him (i'll just stick my head in this tree here
and wait for Commandad Chaos to rob the bank!). While he wouldn't bleed
when he voulantarily severed a limb, he could still feel pain (*ouch*! My
foot!). Donning a suit of green armor, a green sword, and some green hair
dye, he roams the streets as the incrdulous Green Knight... (I'll bite
your knee caps off! It's only a flesh wound!).
I believe I've seen both of these powers used in comics (especially
the latter with cyborgs and robots).
Any clue? :) Suprise me.
...and she said she liked my eyes, so I gave her one,
Jason Sullivan
--Boundary_(ID_+g9HbA2h2UuClskTGXh3+Q)--
From: HTC0NY@aol.com
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 17:16:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Funky Powers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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In a message dated 97-10-25 12:28:40 EDT, you write:
> Atom-man is a hero made of two normal personas, teenage Ronald Roni
> and scientist Doctor Simmians. Together they form 'ATOM MAN,' composite
> hero.
DC Comics Firestorm. use Duplication, possible linked to Multiform. the
super-powered hero form is the unDuplicated form. when Duplicated, the
result is two non-powered forms. for simplicity, it may be useful to have
"the original" undergo a Multiform to a non-powered form.
example: Atom Man has atomic powers. he "splits" in to Roni (the original)
and Dr. Simmians, the dupliate. Roni loses the atomic powers, and possibly
some of his skills. (depending on the character conception).
> Garn Green was exposed to some odd radiation and chemicals when in
> an unfortunate car crash. When he awoke, his head was lying a good
fifteen
> feet away. Snatching his head off the ground, he ran away from the police
> and
> EMT crews that were arriving on the scene. He found he could detach and
> reattach hsi body parts at will; they would be both animate (capable of
> normal function, able to 'crawl' back if necessary) and could transmit
> sensory information back to him (i'll just stick my head in this tree here
> and wait for Commandad Chaos to rob the bank!). While he wouldn't bleed
> when he voulantarily severed a limb, he could still feel pain (*ouch*! My
> foot!). Donning a suit of green armor, a green sword, and some green hair
> dye, he roams the streets as the incrdulous Green Knight... (I'll bite
> your knee caps off! It's only a flesh wound!).
hmm, trickier. i see two different ideas here. the first is the character
who could voluntarily detach body parts and the second is a character who
does it involuntarily.
i've also seen these characters in comics. the former could pull himself
apart and apparently had some form of TK which allowed his disjointed body
parts to float around and accomplish tasks without a physical anchor. the
Arthurian Green Knight is an excellent example of the latter.
i would work the first using Duplication. a number of other issues crop up,
depending on how you want to work the effect and/or game mechanics.
if the character can detach any limb or any part, you may need a VPP to cover
the results. you may need to add levels of Shrinking, and certain Duplicates
may have Physical Limitations such as reduced move or blind. Mind Link would
be appropriate.
and the latter, Green Knight, could be a form of Duplication + Trigger, or
even just a special effect of high defenses.
(i once played a character with high levels of Armor and Damage Reduction and
the SFX was "no obvious effect", meaning that while according to game
mechanics he took no damage from handguns, the SFX was a big hole in him.)
just a voice from the electronic void.
patric
patricr@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/morpheusxx
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 15:13:00 -0700
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: More on Powwow and Tribal.com
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Hash: SHA1
At 06:51 AM 10/25/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Seeker makes a valid point in "Watchers of the Dragon," that one
should
>not dismiss an extraaordinary claim just because it's extraordinary
(if I
>may use a paraphrase to match your wording).
>
And this is followed with the classic aphorism:Extraordinary claims
require extraordinary proof.
For example, if I told you I have a black and white cat curled up
under my desk, it is unlikely you would demand evidence, and my owrd
ought to suffice. If I were to say I have a martian curled up under
my desk, you would be right in demanding more than my say-so before
accepting the matter.
The idea that thousands, or tens of thousands, of people are murdered
in 'satanic cults', with no bodies, no evidence, no witnesses except
unreliable 'recovered memory' advocates demands extraordinary proof.
Is it *possible*? Sure. Is it PROBABLE? Not in the slightest.
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From: Legionair@aol.com
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:00:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
In a message dated 97-10-25 12:39:41 EDT, you write:
<< Examining my own thought process I'd have to say no, or at the very
best a jumbled message. Language provides form and structure to
thoughts, just because a person can read my mind does mean they'll be
able to understand it. My thought processes are carried out in
english without understanding that language a person would only pick
up the underlying emotions that accompany the words, and would have
to deduce their meaning. >>
I disagree. Thoughts are electrically impulses. Languages are just the form
we use to communicate those thoughts to other people... Otherwise, people
who are unable to communicate are unable to think as well?
Of course there is no clear cut answer to this, so we could debate about it
for days... But I don't think the list is really meant for that. :)
Jason Galterio
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:15:49 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Black Hole
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> BG> I'm not meaning to be argrumentative here, but I have no idea what
> BG> you're trying to say, nor what distinction you're trying to make.
>
> Normally, if you put UAO on a power you must define a reasonably common
> defense or set of defenses which protect against it.
>
> "Being desolidified" (more properly speaking, "having no mass") does not
> qualify as "a reasonably common defense or set of defenses".
>
> Therefore, in order for "being desolidified" to be the defense against this
> particular UAO Extradimensional Movement, NND is required.
If you are after some other defences for dodging the effects of a
black hole, try teleport (a VERY long way), your own version of
extradimensional movement or FTL (assuming you are in space). Any of these
should keep you above the event horizon and hence could clasify as "a set of
defences".
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
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Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 12:04 PM