Week Ending November 1, 1997

From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:26:23 +1000 
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At 06:57 AM 10/25/97 -0700, you wrote: 
 
>I think that I apprehend the phrase, but the term "gothic" in the present  
>context was fifteen years in the future when this conversation occurred.  
>I am aware (as I stated later in my post) of the possibility that my leg  
>was being pulled, but I recount the story because the thread reminded me  
>of it, and as a reminder that there are people out there who have no  
>moral qualms about such stuff. 
> 
 
uh-huh? my point was that people like that have always been around-  
try hards, i mean. If you think they were serious about human  
(or ever probably animal) sacrifice, then they suceeded in  
duping you completly 
 
 
>> there are numerous satanic cults- such as the processans, who deriverd 
>> from scientology. But they\irs (and others) existance has NOTHING to do with the mythology of the anti-satanist movement. 
> 
>Well, *there* is a blanket statement for you!  You remind me of a friend  
>who was a rabbinical student who stated that the biblical account of the  
>Passion had to be false, because anyone as exalted as the Sanhedrin is  
>incapable of committing serious sin. 
> 
 
*sigh* back to the 'never say never' thing again, are we? 
okay, replace NOTHING with 'preactically noting'.  
 
>I have seen no proof that it occurs, but I will not make unprovable  
>blanket statements that it does not.  The rule of the skeptic is not that  
>extraordinary claims should be ruled out, but that they require  
>extraordinary proof, and require substantial proof to be seriously  
>entertained.  Ordinary claims require ordinary proof, but one can take  
>them seriously on very slight evidence. 
> 
 
uh-huh? gee, sounds like bunkem to me- since what's 'extrodinary'  
is an entirely subjective jugement. The truth is that if a theory  
runs contrary to a majority of theories, and even then it's given  
air time if it's a proper study. You don't hobble something because  
it sounds 'wierd', you do it because it has no basis in fact.  
 
>The nightmare of the fundamentalists, that there is a huge conspiracy of  
>Satan-worshippers who engage in human sacrifice on a regular basis, is  
>IMHO an extraordinary claim, and I have seen nothing to make me take it  
>seriously.  The possibility that human sacrifice happens sporadically is  
>IMHO a fairly ordinary claim in view of the verifiable horrors that  
>surround us. 
> 
 
uh-huh? and hw does this apply to the issue at hand? EVERYTHING is  
'slightly' possible- i mean hell, if you gave me anought mony i  
could make you a team of real life superheros.  
 
>If it makes you feel safer or happier to deny that it is even possible,  
>that is your privilege.  I hope that you are correct.  In the long run,  
>neither of our opinions matter on this subject. 
> 
 
uh-huh? and whoose does? and please don't do that 'who knows what evil  
lurks/millenium/your so naieve' crud with me. Makig up 'spooky' 
reasons for murder just takes us further away from the most valid truth.  
 
 
Subject: Re: Re[2]: More on Powwow and Tribal.com 
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 97 23:45:29 -0400 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
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jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 10/25/97 10:26 PM 
 
>At 06:57 AM 10/25/97 -0700, you wrote: 
>>If it makes you feel safer or happier to deny that it is even possible,  
>>that is your privilege.  I hope that you are correct.  In the long run,  
>>neither of our opinions matter on this subject. 
>> 
>uh-huh? and whoose does? and please don't do that 'who knows what evil  
>lurks/millenium/your so naieve' crud with me. Makig up 'spooky' 
>reasons for murder just takes us further away from the most valid truth.  
 
As you're so fond of pointing out, fact is fact and your opinions are  
irrelivant. 
Either there are occational instances of religiously motivated human  
sacrifice 
or there are not.  What you believe about that is irrelivant. 
 
And just for the record, what does ANY of this, following the observation  
that 
chapions could be run using powwow, have to do with Champions? 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy? 
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:56:35 -0700 
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On Friday, October 24, 1997 10:29 AM, Eric Burns wrote: 
 
 
>Quick question: will telepathy allow you to read the mind 
>of someone whose language you don't understand?  Could 
>and american who speaks only english read the mind of a 
>brazilian who speaks only portugese, for instance? 
> 
 
 
In the game, it's a GM call. 
 
In reality, that depends a lot upon the person being read. 
 
Everyone thinks in sounds, pictures, feelings, and words. Most people 
tend towards one of the above, virtually all people use all four. 
 
If a person tends towards images, then that person's thoughts will 
appear as pictures. The pictures may not make much sense, but they 
are, in and of themselves, independent of language. Sometimes, 
however, a person will have a picture, and simultaneously describe it, 
either verbally or with a title along the bottom, or some such thing. 
 
If a person tends to think in feelings, they will usually have one of 
the others to tell them what the feelings are for. If that link to 
what the person feels the emotion about is verbal, or written 
language, then you are out of luck. 
 
Some people think in sounds. They tend to be good at music or verbal 
communications, especially ones that don't involve seeing the person 
involved (telephone solicitor, DJ). They are often good at telling if 
someone is lying, because tonality changes when you lie (Listen to 
someone on the telephone if you think they will lie to you. It makes 
them easier to spot. When they lie, their voice tone rises in pitch, 
among other things.) Such a person's thinking will tend to be 
independent of language, though it may be hard to understand. 
 
Verbal thinking, of course, is heavily language dependent. 
 
Since everyone uses a bit of each, knowing the language would 
definitely help. However, how necessary it is depends upon other 
things. 
 
Of course, in _real_ real life, it would probably take you quite a 
while to figure out what the information you were getting meant. "I 
see a woman with a red glow around her in your mind. Is she the 
killer?" "No, she's sexy. I never noticed the red glow before, but 
that's what it means. Don't sexy women glow red in your thoughts?" 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:01:20 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: The Dreaded TRANSFORM 
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Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
> At 02:43 AM 10/25/97 -0700, Filksinger wrote: 
> >I believe what he is trying to say is that Major Transform covers too 
> >many things and too broad a power level. 
>  
>    Hm.  Whether this is what the other person was saying or not, this is 
> certainly a legitimate problem. 
 
Yes, this is what I was trying to say.  (And, evidently, failing.) 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 13:46:51 +1000 
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Subject: Re: Re[2]: More on Powwow and Tribal.com 
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At 11:45 PM 10/25/97 -0400, you wrote: 
>As you're so fond of pointing out, fact is fact and your opinions are  
>irrelivant. 
>Either there are occational instances of religiously motivated human  
>sacrifice 
>or there are not.  What you believe about that is irrelivant. 
> 
 
oh, yeah, I said that *l*  
 
 
 
>And just for the record, what does ANY of this, following the observation  
>that 
>chapions could be run using powwow, have to do with Champions? 
> 
 
 
so shall we stop already?  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Black Hole 
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>>>>> "RH" == Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> writes: 
 
RH> 	If you are after some other defences for dodging the effects of a  
RH> black hole, try teleport (a VERY long way), your own version of 
RH> extradimensional movement or FTL (assuming you are in space).  Any of 
RH> these should keep you above the event horizon and hence could clasify 
RH> as "a set of defences". 
 
The problem is that with a real black hole, once inside the event horizon 
you *CANNOT* get out.  Anything with mass -- even light and other forms of 
electromagnet radiation -- is trapped within.  The event horizon is the 
boundary where the singularity's gravity will overcome all other forces. 
What is commonly called a "black hole" is the event horizon: "black" 
because light cannot escape it, "hole" because everything falls into it. 
 
The only way "out" of a black hole is not to have any mass.  Without mass 
it is unaffected by gravity and can escape.  The way to do that in 
Champions is certain limited special effects for Desolidification, and it 
has to be active at the time. 
 
Yes, I am taking something of an exteme angle on this.  It is more to show 
that one can do just about anything with Champions... but just because one 
can do a thing does not mean that one should do it. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Black Hole 
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
BG>    I still don't get it.  If "being desolidified" isn't "reasonably 
BG> common" for purposes of UAO, then what does NND bring into the picture? 
 
NND allows one to specify something that is not a reasonably common defense 
as a defense against an attack. 
 
Excuse me, but... duh! 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy? 
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>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> We have no reason to believe that the electrical impulses in your brain 
F> and the electrical impulses in my brain are particularly similar. 
 
According to a friend of mine that used to be a neurology major, this is 
not completely accurate.  It is not that the impulses are dissimilar, it is 
that how each individual brain is "wired" that is dissimilar.  To wit, it 
is not a matter of the nature of the signals but where they are going. 
 
For instance, we both look at an orange.  We have both learned that 
"oranges are orange" and this orange is orange.  Our eyes see the same 
frequencies of light and transmit the same signals into our brains.  Our 
brains both do the same thing: they translate those signals into "the 
orange is orange".  This is where the dissimilarity appears: the cluster of 
neurons in your brain that hold that bit of information, "orange are 
orange," is probably not in the same location as the corresponding cluster 
of neurons in my brain. 
 
You can see this effect clearly when comparing the capacities of stroke 
victims. 
 
Still, neurology is a fledgling science.  There is a hell of a lot that we 
simply do not know. 
 
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy? 
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:05:35 -0700 
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On Saturday, October 25, 1997 7:19 PM, Legionair@aol.com wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>I disagree.  Thoughts are electrically impulses.  Languages are just 
the form 
>we use to communicate those thoughts to other people...  Otherwise, 
people 
>who are unable to communicate are unable to think as well? 
 
 
Well, I could argue that higher level thinking requires language, yes. 
However,  I don't know either way, and, as you point out, this isn't 
the place for that discussion. 
 
Many years ago, I read a short story about a man who was kidnapped by 
telepathic aliens. The aliens, eventually, explain that they wish to 
conquer Earth, but that they had to spend time learning how to read 
human thoughts, because they were so different from their own. 
 
They then march out to conquer Earth. A few hours later, they return, 
utterly defeated. Why? Because every human thought differently, and it 
would take months of study, _each_, to read their thoughts. 
 
We have no reason to believe that the electrical impulses in your 
brain and the electrical impulses in my brain are particularly 
similar. To date, all communication has been in some sort of symbol, 
either imagery, words, sounds, etc. There is no reason to believe that 
thoughts at a level below that are meaningful to others. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 00:06:55 -0700 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Setting a power level and making sure the PC is 3D 
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Brian Wong wrote: 
>  
> Hello; 
>         Ok everyone, I posted that around midnight last nigh in between yawns, 
> so I failed to fully elaborate my question. Let do so now. 
>  
>         THe goal I'm seeking is this: 
> How do you ensure a three dimensional character yet maintain a certain 
> power level. My prefered power level is the one shown by 'most of the guys' 
> in the BBB. However, I feel those character's are lacking in true dimension 
> on their character sheets. I notice most Fantasy Hero or Danger International 
> character's have more flavor than the average Champions character. 
 
   <lots of detail and clarification glossed over> 
 
>         The issue is not so much to find out what the person was like 
> before the power. The goal is to make sure that the character in question, 
> powers and all; is as fleshed out as your typical FH or DI character. 
>  
>         The best advice I can come up with is to tell my players to 
> build a power level that is equivalent to the BBB. Using from 250 to 300 
> points to do so, more/less as needed. THe PC should then be fully fleshed 
> out in background skills and abilities as per the story. I would be watching 
> not the point total, but the power level achieved with those points. 
>         To which end I would have to analyze in character on it's own in 
> relation to the others and to the power level I've chosen (BBB in mycase) 
 
   <Power level treatise and 'rule of X' mention removed> 
 
   I choose a very similar method.  I tell my players to build a 
250-point character, with no real restrictions on power level, save 
those of remaining true to the character's conception.  I, too, believe 
that in the overall sense, one 250-point character will be pretty much 
equally effective (and limited) as another (save for those built by 
rules lawyers/min-maxers/munchkins/whathaveyou), and it'll all come out 
in the wash. 
   Anyway, then I have them take 25 points and purchase with it skills, 
talents, possibly even small powers, which reflect the character's OTHER 
interests and abilities.  I tell them not to take anything that is 
closely intertwined with their established power structure, but don't 
require them to only take purely 'useless' stuff. 
   I actually broke my own rule with one character I wrote up myself for 
one of my players; I built her with the entire 275 points spent on her 
paranormal nature.  However, this character had amnesia and remembered 
nothing leading up to a couple of months before she arrived on the 
scene.  By the time she began learning about her past, she was gaining 
enough experience to start fleshing out her personality and diversify 
her interests.  It actually had the result of the player wanting to buy 
"personal interest" skills and stuff while the other players were 
working on spending XP on power and combat skills.  By the time everyone 
was approaching the 300 point level, the ultimate effect worked out to 
be very similar for everyone. 
   Of course, the player COULD have concentrated on simply boosting her 
power levels from the get go, but I guess I lucked out on that one.  
Though I knew the player pretty well, and anticipated the desired 
response, else I may not have gone that route. 
 
   -Capt. Spith 
 
--  
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is 
long 
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter 
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along 
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong 
                                                       -'Wierd Al' 
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 16:07:06 +1000 
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At 12:31 AM 10/26/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "RH" == Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> writes: 
> 
>RH> 	If you are after some other defences for dodging the effects of a  
>RH> black hole, try teleport (a VERY long way), your own version of 
>RH> extradimensional movement or FTL (assuming you are in space).  Any of 
>RH> these should keep you above the event horizon and hence could clasify 
>RH> as "a set of defences". 
> 
>The problem is that with a real black hole, once inside the event horizon 
>you *CANNOT* get out.  Anything with mass -- even light and other forms of 
>electromagnet radiation -- is trapped within.  The event horizon is the 
>boundary where the singularity's gravity will overcome all other forces. 
>What is commonly called a "black hole" is the event horizon: "black" 
>because light cannot escape it, "hole" because everything falls into it. 
> 
 
note that it has never been proved that light is the fastest thing there is 
, it's just the current benchmark. And if it is possible to travel faster  
than light, than you can get out. Unless you do so by warping time, in which  
case it's you engines vs a black hole. .. .  
 
 
>The only way "out" of a black hole is not to have any mass.  Without mass 
>it is unaffected by gravity and can escape.  The way to do that in 
>Champions is certain limited special effects for Desolidification, and it 
>has to be active at the time. 
> 
 
but a desolidified object still has mass, and is STILL effected by gravity-  
i'd say you 'plausable special efects' argument works just as well for other  
powers such as FTL travel and teleport.  
 
 
>Yes, I am taking something of an exteme angle on this.  It is more to show 
>that one can do just about anything with Champions... but just because one 
>can do a thing does not mean that one should do it. 
> 
 
if your character can do X. . . why can't he? Are we talking black holes 
the ways gods are treated in AD&D? booooooringgg!!!  
 
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 16:20:57 +1000 
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At 12:47 AM 10/26/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
> 
>F> We have no reason to believe that the electrical impulses in your brain 
>F> and the electrical impulses in my brain are particularly similar. 
> 
>According to a friend of mine that used to be a neurology major, this is 
>not completely accurate.  It is not that the impulses are dissimilar, it is 
>that how each individual brain is "wired" that is dissimilar.  To wit, it 
>is not a matter of the nature of the signals but where they are going. 
> 
 
yes, but the pattern IS the nature. Hence when neural connections grow,  
they are themselves may be 'ways' of thinking. Different forms of analisis,  
varying perspectives and issues of jugement.  
 
>For instance, we both look at an orange.  We have both learned that 
>"oranges are orange" and this orange is orange.  Our eyes see the same 
>frequencies of light and transmit the same signals into our brains.  Our 
>brains both do the same thing: they translate those signals into "the 
>orange is orange".  This is where the dissimilarity appears: the cluster of 
>neurons in your brain that hold that bit of information, "orange are 
>orange," is probably not in the same location as the corresponding cluster 
>of neurons in my brain. 
> 
 
That's a simple sensory impression, and it really isn't thaty simple.  
Much of our stereotyping ocurs at the time of encoding, not later.  
and they might say something completly different- for instance, you say  
 
'oranges are oranges' 
 
i might say  
 
'oranges smell nice' 
 
some other guy might say 
 
'i like pudding' 
 
 
>You can see this effect clearly when comparing the capacities of stroke 
>victims. 
> 
 
uh-huh? and i can prove the earth is flat by interviewing franchescan monks.  
 
>Still, neurology is a fledgling science.  There is a hell of a lot that we 
>simply do not know. 
> 
 
yup!  
 
 
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>Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
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> 
 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 00:28:56 -0700 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Overdoing/Underdoing Disads? 
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Brian Wong wrote: 
>  
> Overdoing/Underdoing Disads? 
>  
>         How harsh are most of us on character disads? 
>  
> Do you look for a chance at every turn to stomp on a PC using it's disads? 
>  
> Do you just ignore them for the most part? 
>  
> Use them as minor subplots or to flesh out a character? 
>  
> Or some mix of these methods? 
>  
>         Should a character with a DNPC always find themselves rescuing 
> the DNPC from danger? Or they should they mostly find themselves just 
> being sidetracked into subplots with that DNPC? 
>  
>         Where does one draw the line on this? 
 
   Well, for all my hard-line talk on this list about GMs needing to 
enforce limitations and disadvantages in their games to reflect the 
bonus levels gained, I'm not a very good example.  I spend most of my 
concern in these matters during the character creation process, trying 
to guage as closely as I can the anticipated frequency of limitation or 
occurance to ascertain my best estimate of bonus value, but after that 
point I tend to rely solely on unforced campaign dynamics to cause 
problems for the characters in question.   
   Concerning Hunteds, I seldom roll for appearances, or otherwise leave 
it up to "chance" but usually take into consideration everybody's Hunted 
and DNPC frequency levels when crafting adventures, and try to involve 
the NPCs in aspects of the campaign that are most likely to cross paths 
with the PCs.  I tend to have an ongoing undercurrent of direction in my 
campaign(s), with occasional unconnected events sprinkled about, but 
mostly everything is at least a little bit involved in the Big Picture. 
   This method tends to work with my gaming group, though they may be 
unique in this aspect.  I seldom if ever have players complain about 
relative power levels, or that they're being 'picked on' or things like 
that.  I don't think it's because I'm simply an incredible GM, but 
rather mostly due to a system I've found that works, plus a group of 
players who consider "the play is the thing" and aren't hung up on any 
level of powergaming or Players vs. GM attitude. 
 
   -Capt. Spith 
 
--  
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is 
long 
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter 
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along 
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong 
                                                       -'Wierd Al' 
 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 02:46:01 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Vampires vs Water 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:18 AM 10/26/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   You know, I was about to direct this conversation back to Champions 
>Universe vampires, citing the three examples of "real" vampires:  Stalker, 
>Lady Twilight, and the White Queen's Bishop. 
 
Well, just to nitpick, Stalker never seemed to BE a "real" vampire to me, 
hence the whole "possessed by poltergeist" wierdness. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:02:34 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Grey Areas 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
> At 10:46 PM 10/17/97 -0700, Captain Spith wrote: 
> >Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> > 
> >>    What I was talking about was that, in most cases, a "secondary entity" 
> >> based on 75 points with 75 points of Disadvantages costs the main character 
> >> just as much as one  based on 100 points with 50 points of Disadvantages, 
> >> or one based on 150 points with no Disadvantages.  This isn't true of 
> >> Followers (which use Base Points), but it is true of Duplicates and 
> >> Multiforms.  (I'm not clear on Summon for this one.) 
> > 
> >   This shouldn't make any difference, though, since most games will 
> >have all players on the same scale (all 100+150 or all 75+75, etc.), 
> >thus there would be no character inequities, and as for the follower(s); 
> >the comparative savings reflects the fact that a follower is 
> >GM-CONTROLLED, based on the player's original conception; Dupes and 
> >Multis are directly controlled by the player, thus more expensive to 
> >reflect more control. 
>  
>    But it *does* make a difference, and the fact that all players in most 
> games are on the same scale is actually what makes it as much of a problem 
> as it is.  If my 250-point PC has paid for a 200-point multiform (at a cost 
> of 40 points), is there any reason I should make him a 100+100 character as 
> opposed to a 200+0 character? 
>    I can handle the fact that Duplicates and Multiforms are more expensive 
> than Followers.  It makes perfectly good sense to me.  If they did not, 
> then there should be some other restriction that makes them harder to 
> handle (like costing END to maintain).  The problem is that if the 
> Dupe/Multi has Disadvantages, then that form is paying for the points 
> (through the Disadvantage), and so is the base character. 
 
   On the other hand, A character built on 200 points, plus 40 points 
for a duplicate (or would that be 80 points?  Sorry, my BBB is not 
handy) yields two 200-point characters for 280 points.  Normally, two 
200-point characters would cost somebody 400 points.  So the limitations 
involved in being a duplicate instead of an autonomous character yield a 
savings of 120 points!  If the duplicate is identical to the base 
character, then by definition, the disads will be the same.  If the 
duplicate is actually _different_ than the base, should (s)he gain the 
advantage of not requiring equal levels of Disads? 
   Alternately, with a Multiform, where a character completely changes 
into a different character, the cost is also based on the total of the 
character cost.  The NON-mulitform way to do this would be either a 
Multipower or a VPP.  Either way, all powers, skills, talents, etc. 
would have to be paid for, with no limitations allowed on the pool cost 
for a VPP, plus probably at least 1/4 of the pool cost for the Control 
cost, OR with a MP, at least 1/10 of the pool cost for EACH form in a 
MP. 
   Either of these options would be as costly or moreso for the same 
effect, and in all cases, the Disadvantage point levels would still 
cover the Character's points above free base points (100, 75, or 
whatever) for any form taken. 
 
   -Capt. Spith 
 
--  
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is 
long 
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter 
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along 
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong 
                                                       -'Wierd Al' 
 
 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:22:02 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists.... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
> >>Solution? Make all 'normal' (non-killing, non-NND) martial arts maneuvers 
> >>have 'Reduced Penetration'. So Joe MA with 20 STR could do a straight 4D6 
> >>punch, or haul out his Offensive Strike and do 8D6 Reduced Penetration. 
> >>Little change in effectiveness against low-defense humans, makes MA-vs.-MA 
> >>combat last longer (as it should), and renders MAs less effective vs. Bricks 
> >>- as it should be. Also keeps Martial Artists from punching through brick 
> >>walls on a regular basis (buy the board-busting trick as an HA if you want 
> >it). 
> > 
> >   To be perfectly honest, while I see where you're coming from on this, I 
> >really don't like it.  For one thing, what's to balance the brick against 
> >the Martial Artist in this case?  He can still pretty easily clean the MA's 
> >clock with one punch, once he finally connects. 
>  
> So? That's why MAs take NNDs, throws, and high mobility. It takes guile, not 
> power, for a MA to beat a brick. Or at least it should. I could say the same 
> thing of the MA vs. a flying energy projector. How is that balanced? The MA 
> can't get an attack in. What happens when Hulk meets Daredevil? DD sure 
> doesn't knock out the Hulkster, that's for sure. 
>  
> And if a MA _can_ knock out a Brick thanks to those 12-14D6 martial attacks, 
> he can tear his way through reinforced concrete walls, which certainly seems 
> odd for a person of 'normal' human strength. Similar to the 'blade' 
> limitation, there's only so much a 'unaugmented' human being can break. 
> While a martial artist might push the limit, snapping I-beams should be out 
> unless he's got some sort of truly 'super' power (Iron Fist, Spiderman). 
 
   I find the Reduced Penetration Default for MAs interesting, but don't 
think it should apply to Super-Hero genres necessarily.  The example of 
Daredevil vs. the Hulk is not quite indicitave of a general case, 
either;  I'm not sure Daredevil is a 'power Martial Artist', as he has 
his senses and acrobatics fleshing out his abilities list, plus the Hulk 
is a particularly unreasonable power level himself.  However in the 
4-colour world, Martial Artists *do* sometimes take out Bricks, and not 
only by causing buildings to topple on them. 
   The most commonly referred-to source of a Martial Artist's 'power' is 
his/her "Ki" (or "Chi" or "Zhi" as a GM I know has dubbed it) or 
whatever form (s)he uses to represent focus of force, whether purely 
physical or spiritual or both.  I can see how this can be implemented to 
do 'brick-level' damage to living targets, but not as effective against 
the inanimate.  Particularly when the 'Ki' is at least partially 
spiritual in nature, it would make sense that it would be more effective 
versus a non-static substance, such as a living system. 
   Perhaps Martial Artists with a default Reduced Penetration against 
walls, focussed armour, and the like, but normal effect against living 
systems, perhaps 'power armour' (where the armour has it's own active 
systems in operation) and like 'dynamic' targets, would reach a happy 
medium between 4-colour effectiveness and non-paranormal limitation. 
 
   -Capt. Spith 
  
--  
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is 
long 
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter 
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along 
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong 
                                                       -'Wierd Al' 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 04:37:31 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Black Hole 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:33 AM 10/26/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
> 
>BG>    I still don't get it.  If "being desolidified" isn't "reasonably 
>BG> common" for purposes of UAO, then what does NND bring into the picture? 
> 
>NND allows one to specify something that is not a reasonably common defense 
>as a defense against an attack. 
> 
>Excuse me, but... duh! 
 
   Excuse me, but... duh yourself!  That happens to be almost the exact 
opposite of what my copy of the BBB tells me NND does!  In point of fact, 
the first sentence of the second paragraph states that the defense for NND 
has to be "reasonably common" (unless it's a set of "uncommon" things, and 
"being deslidified" isn't a "set" of anything). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 04:45:08 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Funky Powers 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:16 PM 10/25/97 -0400, HTC0NY@aol.com wrote: 
>In a message dated 97-10-25 12:28:40 EDT, you write: 
> 
>>  Atom-man is a hero made of two normal personas, teenage Ronald Roni 
>>  and scientist Doctor Simmians.  Together they form 'ATOM MAN,' composite  
>> hero. 
> 
>DC Comics Firestorm.  use Duplication, possible linked to Multiform.  the 
>super-powered hero form is the unDuplicated form.  when Duplicated, the 
>result is two non-powered forms.  for simplicity, it may be useful to have 
>"the original" undergo a Multiform to a non-powered form. 
 
   Another possible way to handle this is to back up to a 3rd edition game, 
Robot Warriors.  The Power: Combine.  Essentially it's the same as 
Multiform, except that 1) the multiple forms are the base form, and 2) the 
cost is split up evenly among the multiple forms.  So, in this case, Roni 
and Simmians each pay half the cost for a Multiform into Atom-man. 
   Admittedly, it's not truly Fourth Edition Hero (at least, not at 
present), but at least it's a thought. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 04:48:49 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Grey Areas 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:02 AM 10/26/97 -0800, Captain Spith wrote: 
>>    I can handle the fact that Duplicates and Multiforms are more expensive 
>> than Followers.  It makes perfectly good sense to me.  If they did not, 
>> then there should be some other restriction that makes them harder to 
>> handle (like costing END to maintain).  The problem is that if the 
>> Dupe/Multi has Disadvantages, then that form is paying for the points 
>> (through the Disadvantage), and so is the base character. 
> 
>   On the other hand, A character built on 200 points, plus 40 points 
>for a duplicate (or would that be 80 points?  Sorry, my BBB is not 
>handy) yields two 200-point characters for 280 points.  Normally, two 
>200-point characters would cost somebody 400 points.  So the limitations 
>involved in being a duplicate instead of an autonomous character yield a 
>savings of 120 points!  If the duplicate is identical to the base 
>character, then by definition, the disads will be the same.  If the 
>duplicate is actually _different_ than the base, should (s)he gain the 
>advantage of not requiring equal levels of Disads? 
>   Alternately, with a Multiform, where a character completely changes 
>into a different character, the cost is also based on the total of the 
>character cost.  The NON-mulitform way to do this would be either a 
>Multipower or a VPP.  Either way, all powers, skills, talents, etc. 
>would have to be paid for, with no limitations allowed on the pool cost 
>for a VPP, plus probably at least 1/4 of the pool cost for the Control 
>cost, OR with a MP, at least 1/10 of the pool cost for EACH form in a 
>MP. 
>   Either of these options would be as costly or moreso for the same 
>effect, and in all cases, the Disadvantage point levels would still 
>cover the Character's points above free base points (100, 75, or 
>whatever) for any form taken. 
 
   I don't discount a single word you've said here, Cap.  I think it's all 
a well thought out argument, and you make a lot of good points. 
   The thing is, I'm not complaining about how unbalanced these two Powers 
are compared to others.  The balance is pretty good, really, as you labored 
so hard to show. 
   I just wish there was a smoother way to handle this that charged for 
base points instead of total points, that's all.   :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 04:50:45 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Interspecies cooperation/competition as a campaign theme 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
12:20 AM 10/25/97 -0500, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>>Frankly, I think it a little silly to borrow the race and the conflicts,  
>>and not to borrow the background to some extent.  If I use orcs, I am  
>>telling the players that they may hack and slash without moral qualm.  If  
>>I want them to have moral qualms, I use something else. 
> 
>But most fantasy games DON'T borrow these races from Tolkien, at least not 
>directly.  Yes, the word "orc" is taken from Middle Earth, but an AD&D or 
>Warhammer orc (ork) is not really the same as Tolkien's version -- much in 
>the same way that Tolkien himself borrowed the words "elf", "dwarf", and 
>"goblin" and "orc", then used them in quite a different fashion from the 
>original source. 
 
   1) I think Robert was meaning the races *and* the conflicts. 
   2) Does anyone here know whether hobbits are strictly Middle Earth, or 
yet another race taken from mythology?  I've been trying to find 
extra-Tolkienic sources on hobbits, with no luck thus far... 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 04:56:08 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:56 PM 10/25/97 -0700, Filksinger wrote: 
>In the game, it's a GM call. 
> 
>In reality, that depends a lot upon the person being read. 
 
   Of course, that assumes telepathy works in real life, which not everyone 
does (though some do). 
 
>Everyone thinks in sounds, pictures, feelings, and words. Most people 
>tend towards one of the above, virtually all people use all four. 
 
   This is a good distinction.  I've been trying to "collect" various 
distinctions of personality and thought process, and I'll have to keep this 
one handy (along with your qualifier). 
 
   [Some of well-written explanation snipped for brevity] 
>Since everyone uses a bit of each, knowing the language would 
>definitely help. However, how necessary it is depends upon other 
>things. 
> 
>Of course, in _real_ real life, it would probably take you quite a 
>while to figure out what the information you were getting meant. "I 
>see a woman with a red glow around her in your mind. Is she the 
>killer?" "No, she's sexy. I never noticed the red glow before, but 
>that's what it means. Don't sexy women glow red in your thoughts?" 
 
   Perhaps we can offer a general rule of +10 effect needed to interpret 
thoughts in a language (including imagery) not understood by the reader? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 05:01:42 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Overdoing/Underdoing Disads? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:28 AM 10/26/97 -0700, Captain Spith wrote: 
>   Well, for all my hard-line talk on this list about GMs needing to 
>enforce limitations and disadvantages in their games to reflect the 
>bonus levels gained, I'm not a very good example.  I spend most of my 
>concern in these matters during the character creation process, trying 
>to guage as closely as I can the anticipated frequency of limitation or 
>occurance to ascertain my best estimate of bonus value, but after that 
>point I tend to rely solely on unforced campaign dynamics to cause 
>problems for the characters in question.   
 
   I'm about the same way, though if do occasionally peruse the character 
sheets looking for some Disadvantage or Limitation that hasn't been 
suffered recently. 
 
>   Concerning Hunteds, I seldom roll for appearances, or otherwise leave 
>it up to "chance" but usually take into consideration everybody's Hunted 
>and DNPC frequency levels when crafting adventures, and try to involve 
>the NPCs in aspects of the campaign that are most likely to cross paths 
>with the PCs.  I tend to have an ongoing undercurrent of direction in my 
>campaign(s), with occasional unconnected events sprinkled about, but 
>mostly everything is at least a little bit involved in the Big Picture. 
 
   Again, I'm the same way.  If I notice that a certain Hunter hasn't shown 
up in a while, then they'll make an appearance.  If it's been a long while, 
they'll make a big appearance, with intimations that they've been hanging 
around unnoticed for a while (if I can work that in). 
   Similarly, with a DNPC, if I notice that he hasn't been in trouble for a 
while, here it comes.  If I haven't used the DNPC, then the PC learns that 
the DNPC has been having trouble for a while and not bothering the PC with it. 
 
>   This method tends to work with my gaming group, though they may be 
>unique in this aspect.  I seldom if ever have players complain about 
>relative power levels, or that they're being 'picked on' or things like 
>that.  I don't think it's because I'm simply an incredible GM, but 
>rather mostly due to a system I've found that works, plus a group of 
>players who consider "the play is the thing" and aren't hung up on any 
>level of powergaming or Players vs. GM attitude. 
 
   That is probably the Ultimate Rule of Hero:  "Do What Works." 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 05:18:03 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Vampires vs Water 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:20 AM 10/25/97 -0500, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>At 11:22 AM 10/24/97 -0700, Brian Wong wrote: 
>> Anybody see the Interview with a Vampire movie? I think it's 
>>buried in my Laser Disc collection somewhere... 
>> 
>> At the end of that movie the interviewer is crossing the Bay Bridge 
>>in his car when suddenly Lestat (the Vampire Antagonist of the film) pops 
>>out from hiding in the back seat of his car. 
> 
>Bad example, since Anne Rice basically tossed the book on vampires.  IIRC, 
>her vampires aren't bothered by crosses or garlic, for example (I seem to 
>recall Louis attempting confessional and ending up killing the priest). 
> 
>And of course, her vampires pull the modern-day smoke-n-burn reaction to 
>sunlight, while traditional vampires merely became weak and/or comatose 
>during daylight hours. 
 
   You know, I was about to direct this conversation back to Champions 
Universe vampires, citing the three examples of "real" vampires:  Stalker, 
Lady Twilight, and the White Queen's Bishop. 
   Then I checked their character sheets.  Not one of them has a 
restriction to crossing running water. 
   I haven't look through their texts, but somehow I just don't think that 
it's in there either. 
   So I started this thread for nothing.  Champions Universe vampires don't 
have a problem crossing running water, so the original question is moot. 
   As Mork once said, "Boy, do I feel like a clone!" 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 05:19:30 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Vampires vs Water 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:20 AM 10/25/97 -0500, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>At 06:03 AM 10/23/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>   I think that the explanation (at least, the real-world explanation) is a 
>>little simpler, but somewhat more esoteric, than that. 
>>   Though we don't see the connection much in our own society, running 
>>water is a traditional symbol of the flow of life.  Vampires are supposedly 
>>a form of "undead," and so they cannot "cross the flow of life," any more 
>>than a beam of darkness can penetrate light (remember, I'm talking 
>>real-world here). 
> 
>Close, though it's more accurate to depict running water, sunlight, garlic, 
>etc. as symbols of health and purity, therefore coming into conflict with 
>the vampire's nature as a metaphor for disease (plague in medieval Europe, 
>more like consumption in Victorian era ... in the modern era, the vampire 
>seems to have become a metaphor for *venereal* disease, the ramifications of 
>which I'll leave to the reader). 
 
   That's basically what I was trying to get at; you just explained it better. 
 
>For my own part, I've always interpreted the ban against running water as a 
>ban against *voluntarily* crossing running water, even over a bridge, in a 
>vehicle, etc.  Thus, Dracula's gypsy servants can carry his coffin (with him 
>inert inside) over streams, but were it night, he couldn't ride the carriage 
>over the bridge. 
 
   That would be an excellent solution, if not for the snag I mention in my 
other post under this header. 
--- 
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   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
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X-Sender: ghost@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 07:36:21 -0600 
From: Bryce Berggren <ghost@softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Funky Powers (the 3rd Generation) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org, champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 14 
 
At 03:52 PM 10/26/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Sun, 26 Oct 1997, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
> 
>> 	Two words: 
>> 		Prehensile Hair 
> 
>Actually, I myself am interesting in seeing opinions on this concept, 
>especially after viewing "The Bride With the White Hair".  Who? you say... 
>just another awesome example of Hong Kong funky martial arts cinema. 
>Brigette Lin rocks! 
 
And then there's Zen from the Martial Champions video game (unusual 
in that few guys ever have this power). 
  
>> 	It can feel it's way around?  (Hair sense???) 
> 
>Spatial Awareness with... (hmmmm) No Range.  When combined with the 
>Stretching you can use your hair to feel where things are. 
 
This would depend on whether it's merely "prehensile hair," in which 
case this construction is understandable, or "living hair," in which 
case the hair is just a reeeeeally baroque form of Extra Limbs, and 
the ability to "feel around" is a special effect (since it can feel 
pain, it's not like there's a difference between putting your hand on 
the hotplate in the dark and putting your hair on the hotplate in the dark). 
 
>> 	It can whip out and attack with a fury unknown to man 
>>           or beast!!!!!  (+ SPD [Hair ONLY]!?!?!, + HA, 
>> 			    + OCV, Hair-Fu?!?!) 
> 
>That bonus SPD part is a big no-no.  Much more trouble than it's worth and 
>a real rules violation.  The hair should be considered to be dice of Hand 
>Attack, with some levels in OCV due to being hard to block (or predict). 
 
Real rules violation? It's practically verbatim from the Extra Limbs 
section: if you want to buy extra attacks with extra limbs as the special 
effect, buy more SPD. 
 
>> 	It can brace you in a windstorm, change lightbulbs, 
>> 	  wax your car, make iced tea, play baseball (missile 
>> 	  deflection & reflection). 
> 
>Nope.  In order of your examples the powers would be: extra STR, 
>Stretching (or Extra Limb), ditto, ditto, ditto.  Well, maybe 
>Deflection/Reflection on Thrown Objects for that last one. 
 
While we're at it ... how about formering a soft buffer between you 
and incoming attacks? For those with 'mere' prehensile hair, this 
could work as Damage Reduction or Force Field with an activation roll. 
For living hair, it's a mundane block or missile reflection, since 
if the hair takes a direct hit you're gonna feel it anyhow, thus 
defeating the purpose of putting something between you and the attack. 
Use your sidekick instead. :) 
 
>Extra STR - she grabbed, held and crushed people with her hair. 
>Stretching - in order to use her hair at range.  The Bride's max range was 
>something like (oh...) 40 feet. 
>Entangle - Huge No Range AoE: Radius Entangle, where she launches her hair 
>in all directions and wraps everyone up tight.  One could link some form 
>of crush or backlash effect to this. 
>RKA - she would send stands of hair *into* people.  This could be an 
>autofire attack, since the Bride usually sent several. 
>HKA: The Bride whips her hair about and neatly cuts someone's throat. 
> 
>Note: some of these attacks are Continous and Uncontrolled.  She whacks X 
>with some hair, lets him writhe in pain and then turns her attentions to 
>some other poor sod.  One way to stop the Continous effect was to cut the 
>hair (takes one phase and the hair is DEF x Body x...) 
> 
>These ideas good enough? 
 
I've never seen the Bride (damn), so I don't know whether the hair in 
question was prehensile or living. But if it was living, entangle and 
RKA are extraneous to stretching, the Grab maneuver, and the HKA. 
 
H. G. 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 06:03:17 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Re[2]: More on Powwow and Tribal.com 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 03:13 PM 10/25/97 -0700, Lizard wrote: 
>At 06:51 AM 10/25/97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>>   Seeker makes a valid point in "Watchers of the Dragon," that one  
>should 
>>not dismiss an extraaordinary claim just because it's extraordinary  
>(if I 
>>may use a paraphrase to match your wording). 
>> 
>And this is followed with the classic aphorism:Extraordinary claims  
>require extraordinary proof. 
 
   I don't see anything like this in the text, but I'll take your word for it. 
 
>For example, if I told you I have a black and white cat curled up  
>under my desk, it is unlikely you would demand evidence, and my owrd  
>ought to suffice. If I were to say I have a martian curled up under  
>my desk, you would be right in demanding more than my say-so before  
>accepting the matter. 
 
   That depends on how strongly you take the word "accept."  While the 
evidence I've been exposed to (of cold temperatures, thin atmosphere, and 
arid conditions) show me that sentient life, or even complex life, 
indigenous to Mars is a virtual impossibility, I'd certainly be interested 
in exploring the matter if you were to make such a claim. 
   (The movie "Terminator 2" is another good example of dismissing a 
fantastic claim just because it's fantastic.) 
 
>The idea that thousands, or tens of thousands, of people are murdered  
>in 'satanic cults', with no bodies, no evidence, no witnesses except  
>unreliable 'recovered memory' advocates demands extraordinary proof.  
>Is it *possible*? Sure. Is it PROBABLE? Not in the slightest. 
 
   I'd also want proof that the evidence that I've seen photographs of, and 
that which the police officers I've spoken to have told me about, didn't 
really exist, and that the lucid memories that the two eyewitnesses I've 
heard about it from were "recovered memories" despite the fact that no 
psychiatrist, psychologist, or hypnotist was involved and that the 
memories, despite the witness' statements, have not been carried 
consciously all their lives. 
   But since we're flying pretty far afield of Hero System gaming and 
mechanics here, I suggest that anyone who wants to continue this (myself 
included) limit further discussion to private mail.  (That we're too far 
afield of what this list is for, and that I'm not intending on pursuing it 
myself, happen to be the reasons I've not changed the topic header.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 06:29:42 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Black Hole 
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> >>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
>  
> BG>    I still don't get it.  If "being desolidified" isn't "reasonably 
> BG> common" for purposes of UAO, then what does NND bring into the picture? 
 
Not to bring up too fine a point, and I have long ago purged the original  
of this thread, but isn't a power UAO a form of attack?  As such,  
shouldn't Desolidification make one immune to that attack unless it  
is bought "Affects Desolidified" or unless the special effect is one that  
should affect the type of Desolidification in question? 
 
>  
> NND allows one to specify something that is not a reasonably common defense 
> as a defense against an attack. 
>  
> Excuse me, but... duh! 
 
Excuse *me*, but HSR p. 96 (description of NND) reads, "When a  
character purchases an attack with No Normal Defense, he must define a  
reasonably common Power or circumstance, or a set of uncommon Powers or  
circumstances, as the defense."  HSR p. 98 (description of UAO) reads,  
"In addition, there must be a reasonably common set of defenses which  
will cancel out the attack."  The example given is to avoid Teleport UAO  
by having Teleportation, Density Increase or Desolidification. 
 
While these descriptions are similar, it would seem from the example that  
you are correct that Desolidification should not be the sole defense  
against UAO, unless Desolidification is unusually common in the campaign.  
On the other hand, it won't work as the specified defense to an NND,  
either.  HSR p. 62 (description of Desolidification) reads, "When this  
power is used, the character is immune to . . . NND attacks."  Allowing a  
character to specify as a defense a power that is already a defense is,  
IMHO, no different from trying to get a -1/4 for "Doesn't work against  
targets with more than 17 ED" on a 3D6 EB. 
 
In fact, I would rule that Desolidification is a defense to *all* UAOs,  
unless the power is also bought with Affects Desolidified or should  
logically affect that type of Desolidification.  One can argue whether  
the inclusion of Desolidification in the list was intended as a reminder  
of a general rule, or merely to indicate a possible choice. I would  
gravitate (no pun unintended) towards the former view, but that is  
because my gut tells me that Desolidification protects against attacks,  
and UAO powers are attacks. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 06:30:20 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The Dreaded TRANSFORM 
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At 09:01 PM 10/25/97 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>  
>> At 02:43 AM 10/25/97 -0700, Filksinger wrote: 
>> >I believe what he is trying to say is that Major Transform covers too 
>> >many things and too broad a power level. 
>>  
>>    Hm.  Whether this is what the other person was saying or not, this is 
>> certainly a legitimate problem. 
> 
>Yes, this is what I was trying to say.  (And, evidently, failing.) 
 
   Well, apparently *someone* understood it (Filksinger), so I'd just call 
this a failure for the two of us to get on the same wavelength.  (Probably 
something similar is going on between me and Rat re: UAO/NND.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Interspecies cooperation/competition as a campaign theme 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 08:04:16 -0800 
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On Sunday, October 26, 1997 6:12 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>   2) Does anyone here know whether hobbits are strictly Middle 
Earth, or 
>yet another race taken from mythology?  I've been trying to find 
>extra-Tolkienic sources on hobbits, with no luck thus far... 
 
Well, the Tolkien estate did sue TSR over the "halflings". Since it 
would be legitimate to use the name if it was found elsewhere, even if 
the description were of Tolkien's version, "halfling" must be from 
Tolkien alone. After all, they didn't try to sue over orcs, dwarves, 
elves, or that demon that wasn't named a "balrog", but was just the 
same. 
 
I am reasonably sure that "hobbit" is pure Tolkien. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Vampires vs Water 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 08:09:42 -0800 
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On Sunday, October 26, 1997 5:57 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>   You know, I was about to direct this conversation back to 
Champions 
>Universe vampires, citing the three examples of "real" vampires: 
Stalker, 
>Lady Twilight, and the White Queen's Bishop. 
>   Then I checked their character sheets.  Not one of them has a 
>restriction to crossing running water. 
>   I haven't look through their texts, but somehow I just don't think 
that 
>it's in there either. 
>   So I started this thread for nothing.  Champions Universe vampires 
don't 
>have a problem crossing running water, so the original question is 
moot. 
>   As Mork once said, "Boy, do I feel like a clone!" 
 
 
Wait. There are more vampires. 
 
In the Organizations book, "The Circle and Mete", there was a master 
vampire who was turning cops into vampires, so as to create a force of 
elite assassins. They were described as having physical limitations 
defined as "Various vampiric disadvantages", or something similar. 
This could include crossing running water. 
 
However, you are right. All those disadvantages that are typical to 
vampires don't show up directly on any of the character sheets. Even 
these are rather vague, intended to get around the 3rd Ed. limitation 
on multiple physical limitations. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Subject: Re: Black Hole 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 97 11:24:15 -0500 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Stainless Steel Rat ratinox@peorth.gweep.net 10/26/97 12:31 AM 
 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>> "RH" == Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> writes: 
> 
>RH> 	If you are after some other defences for dodging the effects of a  
>RH> black hole, try teleport (a VERY long way), your own version of 
>RH> extradimensional movement or FTL (assuming you are in space).  Any of 
>RH> these should keep you above the event horizon and hence could clasify 
>RH> as "a set of defences". 
> 
>The only way "out" of a black hole is not to have any mass.  Without mass 
>it is unaffected by gravity and can escape.  The way to do that in 
>Champions is certain limited special effects for Desolidification, and it 
>has to be active at the time. 
 
I think Rick's approach does have some validity, Rat.   
 
Teleport allows movement from point A to point B WITHOUT traversing the  
intervening space.  As a result, the rules surrounding the Event Horizon  
are not violated, the teleporter simply ceases to exist within the Event 
Horizon, he/she/it doesn't "escape" it.  Simultaniously, the teleporter  
comes into existance beyond the Event Horizon.  The Horizon is a moot  
point.   
Obviously special effects may invalidate the teleport approach however.   
A  
Star Trek transporter, with its carrier waves and energy conversion would  
be useless (of course the transporter requires the subject move throught  
any  
intervening barriers, like the Event Horizon).   
 
EDM is certainly valid.  The Event Horizon applies to objects in THIS  
universe, not another, so it is reasonable to assume that "ceasing to  
exist"  
beyond the Horizon allows easy escape.  It is also valid to rule that  
physics beyond the Event Horizon are sufficently differant as to  
constitute 
a seperate reality, so low level EDM may not apply, but the any universe  
to 
any other level is certainly valid. 
 
Finally, the Event Horizon itself is the point that the energy associated  
with light moving at c is no longer able to escape.  FTL objects would  
result  
in a smaller Event Horizon, at a high enough speed, the Event Horizon  
would  
logically cease to exist (barring a collision which negates the speed  
anyway. 
 
Just my $0.02.  Oh, and I do agree, just because something CAN be done  
doesn't 
mean it SHOULD be done. :) 
 
PAX, 
John 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 21:26:56 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Black Hole 
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At 11:30 AM 10/27/97 +1000, michael jones wrote: 
>>The problem is that anything with mass cannot accelerate past "c". 
>>Anything can move slower than c; hypothetically things can travel faster 
>>than c.  But crossing c is impossible so long as there is mass. 
> 
>no, that is based on light existing as the benchmark. the closer  
>you get to light the greater the demands of normal mass movement.  
>If light ISN'T the limit, then something else is, and 'c' exists at 
>a slightly higher point.  
> 
Well, no, 'c' would still be the speed of light.  That's what it stands for. 
> 
>>j> if your character can do X. . . why can't he? Are we talking black holes 
>>j> the ways gods are treated in AD&D? booooooringgg!!! 
>> 
>>I am talking about *real* black holes as the benchmark that all "fake" 
>>black holes are compared. 
> 
>so yer saying no-one will ever traverse a black hole? *cough*  
>let's not get too confident in 20th century wisdom, here. .  ...  
>you could argue that the 'real' God is the benchmark for all 
>'fake' gods as well. . .like that buddah guy ( here's hoping  
>no-one misinterprets this statement) 
> 
Alright, I see that this comment relates back to your earlier one... but 
didn't see how your earlier one related much to the discussion.  His point 
hadn't been "My character can do X, but he shouldn't" but "You *could* write 
this up in Champs, but (you shouldn't because) it's probably more trouble 
than it's worth."  Although it could be that Rat's comment was also meant to 
be, "Just because you can open a black hole that you are personally immune 
to (or do something equally powerful), doesn't mean you should, because the 
Earth itself might be sucked in (or something equally horrible)." 
And, unfortunately, I'm not sure *how* to not misinterpret your Buddha 
comment, as I can't make out what it has to do with the comment... Are you 
referring to Buddha as a 'fake' god or the 'real' God? 
He was talking about *real* black holes as benchmarks for "game world" black 
holes... you could also use *literature-based* black holes for benchmarks 
just as successfully.  It's the same deal for your "God" example, but most 
would rather use the *liteterary* or *make-believe* gods as benchmarks... 
the other way is a little too touchy a subject, I would think. 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 08:40:01 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy? 
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While responding to this comment by Filksinger, 
> >You can see this effect clearly when comparing the capacities of stroke 
> >victims. 
 
jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
 
>  
> uh-huh? and i can prove the earth is flat by interviewing franchescan monks. 
>  
 
I am not sure what you are getting at here, Mr. Jones, other than that  
for some reason you wish to defame a charitable order.  First of all,  
they are called the Franciscans, after St. Francis of Assisi, their  
founder.  Second, the order takes vows of poverty, not of ignorance: the  
order has had a long association with universities.  Third, early  
Franciscan friars included Roger Bacon, whose philosophical researches  
established much of the basis for modern experimental science, and  
William of Occam, who established the principle of scientific parsimony  
known as "Occam's Razor."  Fourth, since 1517, the order has largely  
devoted itself to the education of the poor, which includes teaching them  
current science and technology. 
 
And, in any event, what *does* your remark have to do with anything?   
Studying the brains of stroke victims and victims of brain damage is the  
source of much of our useful knowledge of the structure and functioning  
of the brain.  There are other, newer, methods, such as PET, but case  
studies are still vitally important. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 13:22:52 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy? 
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On 26 Oct 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> >>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
>  
> F> We have no reason to believe that the electrical impulses in your brain 
> F> and the electrical impulses in my brain are particularly similar. 
>  
> According to a friend of mine that used to be a neurology major, this is 
> not completely accurate.  It is not that the impulses are dissimilar, it is 
> that how each individual brain is "wired" that is dissimilar.  To wit, it 
> is not a matter of the nature of the signals but where they are going. 
>  
> For instance, we both look at an orange.  We have both learned that 
> "oranges are orange" and this orange is orange.  Our eyes see the same 
> frequencies of light and transmit the same signals into our brains.  Our 
> brains both do the same thing: they translate those signals into "the 
> orange is orange".  This is where the dissimilarity appears: the cluster of 
> neurons in your brain that hold that bit of information, "orange are 
> orange," is probably not in the same location as the corresponding cluster 
> of neurons in my brain. 
>  
> You can see this effect clearly when comparing the capacities of stroke 
> victims. 
>  
 
To further complicate matters, it is commonly held among sociolinguists 
ands neurolinguists that language shapes thought, making certain kinds of 
thought possible. 
 
Suppose, for example, that your language has no specific word for the 
color orange, grouping it as part of the color red. You would then think 
"oranges are red." Color distinctions are quite variable between cultures, 
as the visible spectrum is continuous with no distinct breakpoints. Some 
concepts of color seem very alien to us. In Old English, for instance, 
swords are often described as "brun" - that is, brown. These are not 
rusted or bloody swords, merely swords of a fairly dull color which the 
Anglo-Saxons grouped as brown. 
 
Imagine a telepath looking for a man eating a red fruit, carrying a brown 
sword, and you have a good basis for the kind of misunderstandings 
language difference could cause. 
 
I probably wouldn't get into this in most games, though. In a typical 
Champions campaign, it's probably easier to assume that telepathy picks up 
enough data from non-linguistic levels of thought to figure things out. 
  
 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 10:44:54 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Black Hole 
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> RAW> As such, shouldn't Desolidification make one immune to that attack 
> RAW> unless it is bought "Affects Desolidified" or unless the special 
> RAW> effect is one that should affect the type of Desolidification in 
> RAW> question? 
> 
> Depends on whether or not "the environment" includes "gravity" -- and since 
> a Desolidified character cannot fly without Flight I would say that gravity 
> *does* normally affect a desolidified character. 
> 
> Okay, maybe it should have Affects Desolidified as well as UAO. 
> 
> This does not invalidate the extremely limited form of defense required to 
> avoid being obliterated by a black hole.  In practical terms there is *NO* 
> defense against a real black hole. 
 
    Well, if I was desolid 'cause I was a spirit, I would care less about a Black 
Hole. 
However if it was due to being Gaseous or rapid vibration then it might get me. 
 
 
-- 
Rook 
Also known as Arcady on #herochat, #Fuzionchat, #gurps, #V&V, 
and #SuperHeroChat in DALnet IRC 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
Subject: Familiar Creation 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 97 14:08:40 -0500 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
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Hey guys! Got a question. 
 
I'm trying to develop a familiar for Fantasy Hero.  Seems simple enough, 
right.  Buy the familiar itself as a follower, tag on mindlink, Psych 
Lim for protectiveness, Susceptabilities/Physical Lims to handle carrying 
over damage and the shock should the Familiar somehow get killed.  Now 
comes the problem.  The pet's master should be able to use the familiar's 
senses.  Sence this reasonably isn't deminished over distance, I have to 
set up the power to work on a planetary scale.  So I get: 
 
Clairscentience: 
    All Sense Groups (Sight, Hearing, Taste/Smell, Radio)	60 pts 
    Base Range 600m	                                       0 pts 
    Doubling Of Range (x11)	                              55 pts 
115 Active Points 
 
 
First issue, does this really sound like a 115 Active Point Power?  I'm 
not saying it's not significant or useful, it's just 115 AP seems awfully 
high.  Secondly, obviously there have to be some limits here, but I have 
no idea how much they should be worth.  Only to Use Familiar's Sences? 
Should it be -1, like a mindlink only to someone with a mindlink?  More? 
Less?  What other limits do you think appropriate?  Having a Familiar is 
certainly nice and useful, but should it really price to have the total 
value of the charater?  Even if the Clairscentience comes down to, say, 
38 for limitations, you've still got the Mindlink (5pts) and the Follower 
(15 pts, at least).  That's still 58 points right there. 
 
Any thoughts or ideas would be welcome. 
 
PAX, 
John 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Black Hole 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes: 
 
RAW> Not to bring up too fine a point, and I have long ago purged the 
RAW> original of this thread, but isn't a power UAO a form of attack? 
 
Yes. 
 
RAW> As such, shouldn't Desolidification make one immune to that attack 
RAW> unless it is bought "Affects Desolidified" or unless the special 
RAW> effect is one that should affect the type of Desolidification in 
RAW> question? 
 
Depends on whether or not "the environment" includes "gravity" -- and since 
a Desolidified character cannot fly without Flight I would say that gravity 
*does* normally affect a desolidified character. 
 
Okay, maybe it should have Affects Desolidified as well as UAO. 
 
This does not invalidate the extremely limited form of defense required to 
avoid being obliterated by a black hole.  In practical terms there is *NO* 
defense against a real black hole. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Black Hole 
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>>>>> "RH" == Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> writes: 
 
RH> Stephen Hawkings (I believe) theorizes that black holes can effectively 
RH> evaporate which means not every thing which is sucked in stays in. 
RH> However, that is not the point which I wish to make at this time. 
 
YM "hypothesizes" since there is no experimental evidence to prove his 
hypothesis one way or the other.  In other words, it is nothing more than 
an extremely well-educated gues. 
 
RH> 	The point that I was trying to make was that assuming you are sane,  
RH> you are trying your best to get the hell away from the area containing 
RH> the above entity. 
 
If you are *outside* the event horizon, no problem.  Getting out is 
possible -- but this equates to "not being hit" as a defense, and that is 
*NOT* a valid defense as far Champions mechanics define them.  Once inside 
the event horizon you are, to put it simply, gone. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Black Hole 
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>>>>> "j" == jonesmj <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> writes: 
 
j> note that it has never been proved that light is the fastest thing there 
j> is , it's just the current benchmark. And if it is possible to travel 
j> faster than light, than you can get out. Unless you do so by warping 
j> time, in which case it's you engines vs a black hole. .. . 
 
The problem is that anything with mass cannot accelerate past "c". 
Anything can move slower than c; hypothetically things can travel faster 
than c.  But crossing c is impossible so long as there is mass. 
 
[...] 
 
j> but a desolidified object still has mass, 
 
Depends on the SFX of the desolidification. 
 
[...] 
 
j> if your character can do X. . . why can't he? Are we talking black holes 
j> the ways gods are treated in AD&D? booooooringgg!!! 
 
I am talking about *real* black holes as the benchmark that all "fake" 
black holes are compared. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Black Hole 
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
BG>    Excuse me, but... duh yourself!  That happens to be almost the exact 
BG> opposite of what my copy of the BBB tells me NND does!  In point of 
BG> fact, the first sentence of the second paragraph states that the 
BG> defense for NND has to be "reasonably common" (unless it's a set of 
BG> "uncommon" things, and "being deslidified" isn't a "set" of anything). 
 
Go read my original post where I made the comment that there really is no 
defense against a real black hole.  The closest that Hero gets is NND. 
 
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Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 14:45:29 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Funky Powers (Part Deux) 
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	Astronaut Mark Nomis is hurled through an extra-dimensional 
worm hole.  After exiting, he slowly begins to recall the events which 
happened in the '5th dimension.'  He has been infected with an alien 
symboite known as Xlr.  The union has formed 'Second Thought,' the 
hero with two brains. 
	Essentially, what we have here is a character with two 
brains.  In previous posts, I believe we've tackled MPS 
using multiform (mental attributes only), as well as a dual form 
that makes up one entity (Atom Guy). 
	The symbite can live on it's own, even infect other people 
if it wished to do so.  Any comments on Possession, biological or 
mystical,  Symboites or Parasites (who by their very nature augument 
the abilities of an individual),  or Super powered individuals with 
two brains are welcomed and encouraged. 
	We (Xlr and I) thank you in advance. 
			I have this strange craving for Tungsten, 
					Jason Sullivan 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy? 
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>>>>> "j" == jonesmj <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> writes: 
 
>> You can see this effect clearly when comparing the capacities of stroke 
>> victims. 
 
j> uh-huh? and i can prove the earth is flat by interviewing franchescan 
j> monks. 
 
Shows that you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. 
Observation of stroke victims and their physically damaged brains is 
critical in understanding how the brain works. 
 
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Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 15:05:24 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Funky Powers (the 3rd Generation) 
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	Two words: 
		Prehensile Hair 
 
	Yes...  Prehensile Hair.  Think about it.  A character 
who's power is LIVING HAIR.  Maddening, no?  Here's the best part... 
It has lots and lots and lots of possibilities. 
	It grows!  (stretching) 
	It's strong!  (+ STR [Hair ONLY]) 
	It can feel it's way around?  (Hair sense???) 
	It can be used to move!!!  (Swinging, Climbing, and 
		perhaps even Running) 
	It can whip out and attack with a fury unknown to man 
          or beast!!!!!  (+ SPD [Hair ONLY]!?!?!, + HA, 
			    + OCV, Hair-Fu?!?!) 
	It can brace you in a windstorm, change lightbulbs, 
	  wax your car, make iced tea, play baseball (missile 
	  deflection & reflection). 
	Unfortunately, it can be cut (with no 'BODY' damage to 
	  the Hair hero herself), burned (hair does burn, you 
	  know), and is subject to bad perms, sticky messes, 
	  and other hair-raising experiences. 
	...but it grows!  (grows back...  quick!) 
 
	So, true belivers, give me what you think this furry-fury 
should have and could have.  How would you structure it, what could 
the 'hair' do (bad pun),  what couldn't the hair do (FTL hair?  No.), 
how would you represent the hair's 'BODY' (Eiee! Another pun!), 
how do you deal with extra attacks (extra SPD) that ONLY the hair gets, 
what about other abilities (...Tim, for the last time, there is no Lim 
'Linked to Hair' [or is there?]), what about the weaknessess that 
specifically target the hair itself? 
	...give me input (like actual sets of powers and frameworks, 
if you could), and even bad punny names (Hair-O, Hairier, Hairess...) 
				Get the scissors!  Get the scissors! 
					Jason Sullivan 
 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 15:19:09 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Invisibility, Flash, Darkness 
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	I'm designing an annoying antagonist who is a bubbly, cute 
teen-- and also happens to be totally unhittable.		 
	Her name is Mischeif.  For some reason, no human can target her. 
Guns have been drawn on her, even at the closest of ranges, yet they 
never hit.  Martial Artists will be embarassed because (gasp!) they 
swing, but miss. 
	Her power is mentally based.  I was thinking about giving 
her Invisibility (no fringe, targeting senses only), as well as  
Flash (targeting sense), and darkness (personal immunity, targeting 
sense). 
	She is a misguided individual...  and perhaps are heroes can 
make her come over to the side of goodness!  (Fat chance...)  Mind you, 
she's still vulnrable to things like sticky Entangles, Flashes, AoE 
powers, and Bear Traps (KA, Increased Stun Mult., Trigger, OUCH)... 
So, how much do you think this is going to run her (point wise)? 
	BTW, did I fail to mention her power of Invisibility is Always On? 
...and she uses her power to steal stuff? 
	Well, tell me what you think... 
			I wish I had her power so you wouldn't lynch me, 
					Jason Sullivan 
 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 15:52:26 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Funky Powers (the 3rd Generation) 
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On Sun, 26 Oct 1997, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
 
> 	Two words: 
> 		Prehensile Hair 
 
Actually, I myself am interesting in seeing opinions on this concept, 
especially after viewing "The Bride With the White Hair".  Who? you say... 
just another awesome example of Hong Kong funky martial arts cinema. 
Brigette Lin rocks! 
  
> 	Yes...  Prehensile Hair.  Think about it.  A character 
> who's power is LIVING HAIR.  Maddening, no?  Here's the best part... 
> It has lots and lots and lots of possibilities. 
> 	It grows!  (stretching) 
 
Simple: Stretching. 
 
> 	It's strong!  (+ STR [Hair ONLY]) 
 
+'x' STR, Does not affect figured (-1/2), Can only be used to grab, 
squeeze etc (-1?)   
Note: if put in a Multipower, then you have to drop the "Does not affect 
figured". 
 
> 	It can feel it's way around?  (Hair sense???) 
 
Spatial Awareness with... (hmmmm) No Range.  When combined with the 
Stretching you can use your hair to feel where things are. 
 
> 	It can be used to move!!!  (Swinging, Climbing, and 
> 		perhaps even Running) 
 
I'd go with the Climbing and Swinging parts. 
 
> 	It can whip out and attack with a fury unknown to man 
>           or beast!!!!!  (+ SPD [Hair ONLY]!?!?!, + HA, 
> 			    + OCV, Hair-Fu?!?!) 
 
That bonus SPD part is a big no-no.  Much more trouble than it's worth and 
a real rules violation.  The hair should be considered to be dice of Hand 
Attack, with some levels in OCV due to being hard to block (or predict). 
 
> 	It can brace you in a windstorm, change lightbulbs, 
> 	  wax your car, make iced tea, play baseball (missile 
> 	  deflection & reflection). 
 
Nope.  In order of your examples the powers would be: extra STR, 
Stretching (or Extra Limb), ditto, ditto, ditto.  Well, maybe 
Deflection/Reflection on Thrown Objects for that last one. 
 
> 	Unfortunately, it can be cut (with no 'BODY' damage to 
> 	  the Hair hero herself), burned (hair does burn, you 
> 	  know), and is subject to bad perms, sticky messes, 
> 	  and other hair-raising experiences. 
> 	...but it grows!  (grows back...  quick!) 
 
Special Effects.  Unless you want to have a Phys Lim or even a 
Susceptability saying otherwise.  Heh, I can see it down: Suscept: 3d6 
Drain to Hair Multipower is hit with a fire based attack. 
 
In "The Bride" (awesome flic BTW and the sequel is pretty cool as well), 
she produces her hair at will and has an endless supply of strands. 
  
> 	So, true belivers, give me what you think this furry-fury 
> should have and could have.  How would you structure it, what could 
> the 'hair' do (bad pun),  what couldn't the hair do (FTL hair?  No.), 
> how would you represent the hair's 'BODY' (Eiee! Another pun!), 
> how do you deal with extra attacks (extra SPD) that ONLY the hair gets, 
> what about other abilities (...Tim, for the last time, there is no Lim 
> 'Linked to Hair' [or is there?]), what about the weaknessess that 
> specifically target the hair itself? 
 
Off the top of my head, the Bride would have the follwoing (most likely in 
a Multipower): 
 
Extra STR - she grabbed, held and crushed people with her hair. 
Stretching - in order to use her hair at range.  The Bride's max range was 
something like (oh...) 40 feet. 
Entangle - Huge No Range AoE: Radius Entangle, where she launches her hair 
in all directions and wraps everyone up tight.  One could link some form 
of crush or backlash effect to this. 
RKA - she would send stands of hair *into* people.  This could be an 
autofire attack, since the Bride usually sent several. 
HKA: The Bride whips her hair about and neatly cuts someone's throat. 
 
Note: some of these attacks are Continous and Uncontrolled.  She whacks X 
with some hair, lets him writhe in pain and then turns her attentions to 
some other poor sod.  One way to stop the Continous effect was to cut the 
hair (takes one phase and the hair is DEF x Body x...) 
 
These ideas good enough? 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
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From: "Mann, Wade" <WMann@Rogue.CC.OR.US> 
Subject: RE: Vampires vs Water 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:54:24 -0800 
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X-UID: 10 
 
> On Sunday, October 26, 1997 5:57 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
>  
> <snip> 
> > 
> >   You know, I was about to direct this conversation back to 
> Champions 
> >Universe vampires, citing the three examples of "real" vampires: 
> Stalker, 
> >Lady Twilight, and the White Queen's Bishop. 
> >   Then I checked their character sheets.  Not one of them has a 
> >restriction to crossing running water. 
> >   I haven't look through their texts, but somehow I just don't think 
> that 
> >it's in there either. 
> >   So I started this thread for nothing.  Champions Universe vampires 
> don't 
> >have a problem crossing running water, so the original question is 
> moot. 
> >   As Mork once said, "Boy, do I feel like a clone!" 
>  
>  
> Wait. There are more vampires. 
>  
> In the Organizations book, "The Circle and Mete", there was a master 
> vampire who was turning cops into vampires, so as to create a force of 
> elite assassins. They were described as having physical limitations 
> defined as "Various vampiric disadvantages", or something similar. 
> This could include crossing running water. 
>  
> However, you are right. All those disadvantages that are typical to 
> vampires don't show up directly on any of the character sheets. Even 
> these are rather vague, intended to get around the 3rd Ed. limitation 
> on multiple physical limitations. 
>  
> Filksinger 
>  
	But wait, there's more.... 
 
	In the Hero Bestiary there are two forms of vampires.  The 
lesser and the greater (go figure) and both of these have the 15 point 
Physical Limitation: Cannot cross running water (Infrequently, Fully). 
 
	I thought this interesting because the creators made this a 
physical limitation which would affect the vampire even if he/she/it is 
unconscious. 
 
	Am I reading something in to this?  Let me know. 
 
	Wade R. Mann 
 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 15:17:42 -0600 
From: Max <garymo@ipa.net> 
Reply-To: garymo@ipa.net 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Funky Powers (the 3rd Generation) 
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Obviously, you have never seen the Inhuman known as Medusa......her hair 
is prehensil. 
 
                Max 
 
-- 
When he concentrates, prepare against him; where he is strong, avoid 
him. Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance. Invulnerability 
depends on one's self; the enemy's vulnerability on him. 
  Sun Tzu 
 
 
X-Sender: naneiden@iswest.com 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 13:35:27 -0800 
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com> 
Subject: Re: Funky Powers (the 3rd Generation) 
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At 03:52 PM 10/26/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
> 
> 
>> 	It can feel it's way around?  (Hair sense???) 
> 
>Spatial Awareness with... (hmmmm) No Range.  When combined with the 
>Stretching you can use your hair to feel where things are. 
> 
 
Actually, this could probably just be part of the Extra Limbs, they 
stretch, and your sense of touch extends to all your limbs. 
 
-Nic 
 
 
               +------------------------------------------------------+ 
               |                  naneiden@iswest.com                 | 
               |        Justice, Like Lightning, Thunderbolts!        | 
               | http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/thunder.html  | 
               |                   Costumed Heroines                  | 
               |         http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/      | 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Funky Powers (the 3rd Generation) 
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>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes: 
 
>> It's strong!  (+ STR [Hair ONLY]) 
MS> +'x' STR, Does not affect figured (-1/2), Can only be used to grab, 
MS> squeeze etc (-1?) 
 
Occam's Razor: Telekensis. 
 
[...] 
 
>> It can feel it's way around?  (Hair sense???) 
MS> Spatial Awareness with... (hmmmm) No Range. 
 
Reduced Range, maybe?  "No Range" limits it to, well, the hex one is in if 
not moreso. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Invisibility, Flash, Darkness 
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>>>>> "AAM" == ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> writes: 
 
AAM> 	I'm designing an annoying antagonist who is a bubbly, cute 
AAM> teen-- and also happens to be totally unhittable. 
 
If there is one absolute in Hero, it is that there is no such thing as an 
absolute :). 
 
AAM> 	Her name is Mischeif.  For some reason, no human can target her. 
AAM> Guns have been drawn on her, even at the closest of ranges, yet they 
AAM> never hit.  Martial Artists will be embarassed because (gasp!) they 
AAM> swing, but miss. 
 
That's just an absurdly high DCV.  The rest is special effects. 
 
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Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 17:56:08 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Funky Powers (the 3rd Generation) 
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On Sun, 26 Oct 1997, Bryce Berggren wrote: 
 
> At 03:52 PM 10/26/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
> >On Sun, 26 Oct 1997, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
> >> 	It can whip out and attack with a fury unknown to man 
> >>           or beast!!!!!  (+ SPD [Hair ONLY]!?!?!, + HA, 
> >> 			    + OCV, Hair-Fu?!?!) 
> > 
> >That bonus SPD part is a big no-no.  Much more trouble than it's worth and 
> >a real rules violation.  The hair should be considered to be dice of Hand 
> >Attack, with some levels in OCV due to being hard to block (or predict). 
>  
> Real rules violation? It's practically verbatim from the Extra Limbs 
> section: if you want to buy extra attacks with extra limbs as the special 
> effect, buy more SPD. 
 
No, no... read what he wrote: "(+ SPD [Hair ONLY]" 
 
There is no way I'd allow someone to have: +3 SPD, "Only to do things with 
Hair" (-1/2).  Which is what I presumed he meant.  As to buying up your 
SPD with the special effect that your hair is getting most of the 
attacks... sure. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 17:58:05 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Funky Powers (the 3rd Generation) 
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On Sun, 26 Oct 1997, Nic Neidenbach wrote: 
 
> At 03:52 PM 10/26/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
> > 
> > 
> >> 	It can feel it's way around?  (Hair sense???) 
> > 
> >Spatial Awareness with... (hmmmm) No Range.  When combined with the 
> >Stretching you can use your hair to feel where things are. 
> > 
>  
> Actually, this could probably just be part of the Extra Limbs, they 
> stretch, and your sense of touch extends to all your limbs. 
 
Oh yeah..., except the Spatial Awareness version gives you a Targeting 
Sense (so you don't have to waste phases 'looking around'). 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 18:04:40 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Funky Powers (the 3rd Generation) 
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On 26 Oct 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> >>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes: 
>  
> >> It's strong!  (+ STR [Hair ONLY]) 
> MS> +'x' STR, Does not affect figured (-1/2), Can only be used to grab, 
> MS> squeeze etc (-1?) 
>  
> Occam's Razor: Telekensis. 
 
Oh yeah...  In fact I defined Nieh Hsiao Tsing's sleeves ("A Chinese Ghost 
Story") as TK. 
 
> >> It can feel it's way around?  (Hair sense???) 
> MS> Spatial Awareness with... (hmmmm) No Range. 
>  
> Reduced Range, maybe?  "No Range" limits it to, well, the hex one is in if 
> not moreso. 
 
Some combination of Spatial Awareness, Extra Limbs and or Stretching it 
seems.  Of course, looking in the book one can write up: 
 
Touch: Targeting, Ranged, Discriminatory -  30 points 
 
With a limitation possibly that the "Ranged" part is only good to 'x' 
inches.  (Probably -1/4 at most.) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 18:08:09 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Funky Powers (the 3rd Generation) 
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On Sun, 26 Oct 1997, Bryce Berggren wrote: 
 
[Hair stuff snipped] 
 
> I've never seen the Bride (damn), so I don't know whether the hair in 
> question was prehensile or living. But if it was living, entangle and 
> RKA are extraneous to stretching, the Grab maneuver, and the HKA. 
 
Prehensile.  It gets cut a few times, but the Bride doesn't suffer any ill 
effects.  Her hair can be best pictured as a really strange version of 
Spidey's web-shooters. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Invisibility, Flash, Darkness 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 16:05:49 -0800 
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On Sunday, October 26, 1997 11:42 AM, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
 
 
> I'm designing an annoying antagonist who is a bubbly, cute 
>teen-- and also happens to be totally unhittable. 
> Her name is Mischeif.  For some reason, no human can target her. 
>Guns have been drawn on her, even at the closest of ranges, yet they 
>never hit.  Martial Artists will be embarassed because (gasp!) they 
>swing, but miss. 
> Her power is mentally based.  I was thinking about giving 
>her Invisibility (no fringe, targeting senses only), as well as 
>Flash (targeting sense), and darkness (personal immunity, targeting 
>sense). 
> She is a misguided individual...  and perhaps are heroes can 
>make her come over to the side of goodness!  (Fat chance...)  Mind 
you, 
>she's still vulnrable to things like sticky Entangles, Flashes, AoE 
>powers, and Bear Traps (KA, Increased Stun Mult., Trigger, OUCH)... 
>So, how much do you think this is going to run her (point wise)? 
> BTW, did I fail to mention her power of Invisibility is Always On? 
>...and she uses her power to steal stuff? 
> Well, tell me what you think... 
 
 
Well, to begin with, you could simply give her about 100 pts. in 
levels of DCV. At a -20, virtually no one would ever hit her. Another 
possibility, given that her power is mental, would be Mind Control, 
one command: "Do not hit me", AoE: Radius, Fully Invisible. This one 
gets expensive, however. 
 
Lastly, you could use Desolidification. The reasonably common set of 
attacks are attacks that hit without being targeted at her directly, 
and attacks that are targeted by machine. (Note: A powered-armor foe 
with an automated targeting computer could, conceivably, hit her.) Buy 
the limitation that she cannot pass through barriers, and you've got 
it. 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:12:02 +1000 
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At 08:40 AM 10/26/97 -0800, you wrote: 
>While responding to this comment by Filksinger, 
>> >You can see this effect clearly when comparing the capacities of stroke 
>> >victims. 
> 
>jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
> 
>>  
>> uh-huh? and i can prove the earth is flat by interviewing franchescan monks. 
>>  
> 
>I am not sure what you are getting at here, Mr. Jones, other than that  
>for some reason you wish to defame a charitable order.  First of all,  
>they are called the Franciscans, after St. Francis of Assisi, their  
>founder.  Second, the order takes vows of poverty, not of ignorance: the  
>order has had a long association with universities.  Third, early  
>Franciscan friars included Roger Bacon, whose philosophical researches  
>established much of the basis for modern experimental science, and  
>William of Occam, who established the principle of scientific parsimony  
>known as "Occam's Razor."  Fourth, since 1517, the order has largely  
>devoted itself to the education of the poor, which includes teaching them  
>current science and technology. 
> 
 
I KNOW!  
my point is that *any* such vague evidence of *proof* or *support*  
is often infolved in the idiosincratic nature of the individuals at hand.  
Even the most scholarly group can be interrogated in a way in which their  
behaviour supports suc vague statements.  
 
>And, in any event, what *does* your remark have to do with anything?   
>Studying the brains of stroke victims and victims of brain damage is the  
>source of much of our useful knowledge of the structure and functioning  
>of the brain.  There are other, newer, methods, such as PET, but case  
>studies are still vitally important. 
> 
 
'case studies'? like when people made up that theoy about  
'left brain/right bain' based on work with SEVERE epilectics who'd  
had their brain chopped in half? you can't generalise ANY such  
statements to the greater population. Freud made a complete goof 
of himself by studying severe neurotics and suggesting emotionally 
healthy people think the same way.   
 
 
>--  
><-------------------------------------------------------> 
>Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
>Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
>http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
> 
> 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:16:45 +1000 
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At 11:24 PM 10/26/97 -0800, you wrote: 
>	The basic problem in the real world is that by the time you get to  
>the event horizon, you are dead from tidal forces anyway and hence, what  
>happens when you get to the other side of the event horizon is not worth  
>worring about.  This is the attack that should be made after the TK or flight  
>is used to pull the target close enough. 
> 
 
actually, the larger the blck hole, the less likely spagetification is to occur.   
 
 
>--  
>----------------------------------------------------------- 
>Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
>Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
>----------------------------------------------------------- 
> 
 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 17:25:08 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Grey Areas 
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Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    I don't discount a single word you've said here, Cap.  I think it's all 
> a well thought out argument, and you make a lot of good points. 
 
   (Thank you, I do go on a bit, don't I?) 
 
>    The thing is, I'm not complaining about how unbalanced these two Powers 
> are compared to others.  The balance is pretty good, really, as you labored 
> so hard to show. 
 
   Ironically, half the points I made, I only really thought about as I 
was writing... 
 
>    I just wish there was a smoother way to handle this that charged for 
> base points instead of total points, that's all.   :-] 
 
   I believe that the method in The Book gives one major advantage over 
a "base-cost-only" system; advancing through experience.  I know some 
GMs (perhaps official rules, but I don't think so) restrict expenditure 
of XP to whichever form(s) were active during the XP-earning period; if 
a character spent an entire adventure in 'base form', the XP could not 
be spent on any of the other forms; if a character split a game approx. 
evenly between two forms, the total XP has to be split between the two 
forms, etc.  I don't agree with this method. 
   If spending XP on a Multiform character, the two (or more) forms can 
be compared on an ongoing basis easily, and while one form can be buying 
up power, another can be buying off disads, but both will continue to 
maintain a verifiable relationship with each other (structurally).  
Besides, if a dup/multi is bought based on 'base' points, SOMEBODY would 
try to get away with spending 10 points for 5 10+115 point duplicates. 
 
   -Capt. Spith 
 
(Not that I'm blindly fighting for the status quo; I'm currently 
building my House 
 Rules Web Page with pages of rewritten powers and rules - including 
Duplication and 
 Multiform...) 
 
---- 
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is 
long 
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter 
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along 
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong 
                                                       -'Wierd Al' 
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:30:29 +1000 
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At 02:40 PM 10/26/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "j" == jonesmj <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> writes: 
> 
>j> note that it has never been proved that light is the fastest thing there 
>j> is , it's just the current benchmark. And if it is possible to travel 
>j> faster than light, than you can get out. Unless you do so by warping 
>j> time, in which case it's you engines vs a black hole. .. . 
> 
>The problem is that anything with mass cannot accelerate past "c". 
>Anything can move slower than c; hypothetically things can travel faster 
>than c.  But crossing c is impossible so long as there is mass. 
> 
 
no, that is based on light existing as the benchmark. the closer  
you get to light the greater the demands of normal mass movement.  
If light ISN'T the limit, then something else is, and 'c' exists at 
a slightly higher point.  
 
 
 
>[...] 
> 
>j> but a desolidified object still has mass, 
> 
>Depends on the SFX of the desolidification. 
> 
>[...] 
> 
>j> if your character can do X. . . why can't he? Are we talking black holes 
>j> the ways gods are treated in AD&D? booooooringgg!!! 
> 
>I am talking about *real* black holes as the benchmark that all "fake" 
>black holes are compared. 
> 
 
so yer saying no-one will ever traverse a black hole? *cough*  
let's not get too confident in 20th century wisdom, here. .  ...  
you could argue that the 'real' God is the benchmark for all 
'fake' gods as well. . .like that buddah guy ( here's hoping  
no-one misinterprets this statement) 
 
 
 
 
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>--  
>Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
>PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
>                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
> 
> 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:36:06 +1000 
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At 02:37 PM 10/26/97 -0500, you wrote: 
 
>YM "hypothesizes" since there is no experimental evidence to prove his 
>hypothesis one way or the other.  In other words, it is nothing more than 
>an extremely well-educated gues. 
> 
 
actually, his evidence is just as valid as any other in thsi field-  
there are NO astrophysics which have been experimented with. so all your 
statememts about event horizons are just as valid, or invalid as the  
case may be.  
 
 
>RH> 	The point that I was trying to make was that assuming you are sane,  
>RH> you are trying your best to get the hell away from the area containing 
>RH> the above entity. 
> 
>If you are *outside* the event horizon, no problem.  Getting out is 
>possible -- but this equates to "not being hit" as a defense, and that is 
>*NOT* a valid defense as far Champions mechanics define them.  Once inside 
>the event horizon you are, to put it simply, gone. 
> 
 
gee, THAT'S fun. . . sounds like a maxim to me *boo hiss* 
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:44:45 +1000 
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At 02:46 PM 10/26/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "j" == jonesmj <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> writes: 
> 
>>> You can see this effect clearly when comparing the capacities of stroke 
>>> victims. 
> 
>j> uh-huh? and i can prove the earth is flat by interviewing franchescan 
>j> monks. 
> 
>Shows that you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. 
>Observation of stroke victims and their physically damaged brains is 
>critical in understanding how the brain works. 
> 
 
no, they are FALSE! you are making jugements on the workings of 
healthy brains based on damaged ones? And you ignore the point that  
work with stroke victims DO NOT support the suggestion that we all think 
the same, just in different areas. It supports general hypothesis 
that the brain is organised in speacialised areas. However these areas 
are NOT simply 'memories' and sensory plug-points. The WAY we think  
in various situations is developet via neural connections.  
 
 
PLEASE stop suggestion i don't know what i'm talking about, just 
because i'm not willing to smother the discussion in self-validating 
physiology jargon and remove what little value this thread has for  
the rest of the list.  
 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 21:44:10 -0500 (EST) 
From: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu> 
Reply-To: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy? 
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On Mon, 27 Oct 1997 jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
 
> PLEASE stop suggestion i don't know what i'm talking about, just 
> because i'm not willing to smother the discussion in self-validating 
> physiology jargon and remove what little value this thread has for  
> the rest of the list.  
 
	Little value, indeed.  I, for one, have a habit of ignoring 
threads that have degenerated into petty arguments.  I find no 
game-relevance in the "Study of Damaged Brains has no relevance to Healthy 
Brains" argument, unless for some reason I wanted to role-play said 
argument. 
 
	Of course, by adding my 2-cents, I've unwittingly contributed to 
the list-noise.  If you'll excuse me, I must go beg my Mistress to punish 
me. 
 
	          William K. Bushway, wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu 
	          http://Mason.GMU.edu/~wbushway/index.html 
	   "I'm betting that I'm just abnormal enough to survive." 
		    -The Tick, The Tick Vs.The Breadmaster 
 
 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 21:30:21 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy? 
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> 'case studies'? like when people made up that theoy about 
> 'left brain/right bain' based on work with SEVERE epilectics who'd 
> had their brain chopped in half? you can't generalise ANY such 
> statements to the greater population. Freud made a complete goof 
 
 
	Guys, I thought he was just obnoxious, now I see he is ignorant as 
well. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Black Hole 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Date: 26 Oct 1997 23:02:36 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "j" == jonesmj <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> writes: 
 
j> no, that is based on light existing as the benchmark. 
 
No, that is based on the fundamental e=mc^2.  Nothing prevents an object 
with mass from moving faster or slower than c.  What is prevented is 
accelerating an object with mass *to* c.  So long as mass is a non-nil 
quantity, an object cannot travel *at* c.  It is an absolute boundary that 
cannot be crossed. 
 
The "problem" with FTL travel is crossing that absolute boundary without 
actually passing through it. 
 
[...] 
 
j> so yer saying no-one will ever traverse a black hole? 
 
No, I am saying that based on what is currently known about black holes it 
is impossible to escape the gravitational field of the singularity once a 
thing has approached to a certain distance -- the event horizon. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy? 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 26 Oct 1997 23:13:09 -0500 
Lines: 35 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 32 
 
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>>>>> "j" == jonesmj <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> writes: 
 
j> no, they are FALSE! you are making jugements on the workings of 
j> healthy brains based on damaged ones? 
 
You really don't know what is going on, do you. 
 
Much of what is currently known in neurology has been learned by comparing 
damage from strokes.  To wit, the fact that specific higher functions are 
not located in specific areas of the brain was discovered by observing that 
stroke victims with similar damage are often not similarly affected.  Given 
similar damage, some victims suffer loss of motor control, others lose 
speech/language comprehension, others lose memory.  Some manage to recover 
partially or fully even though those parts of their brains are dead tissue. 
 
Now, tell me that this observation does not tell us anything about how a 
healthy brain functions. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Date: 	Sun, 26 Oct 1997 18:21:13 -1000 
From: Richard Scott <rscott@hawaii.edu> 
X-Sender: rscott@uhunix4 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: The Destroyers 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 33 
 
These guys are in the Death Duel with the Destroyers V&V module. 
 
Richard Scott (rscott@hawaii.edu) 
"It was drifting towards the post but then swung and went straight through 
the middle.  AFter that I just took off until Barnesy grabbed me and 
kissed me, and then they came all over the top.  Great moment that." 
----- Billy Brownless, 1994 Qualifying Final 
 
On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
 
> Oh Ye of Many Words, 
> 	There was a group of villians which I simply and absolutely 
> _loved_!  They were the Destroyers. 
> 	You might know them from two places: 
> 	     1)  Villians and Vigilantes 
>              2)  The Elementals comic book (from the 80's) 
>  
> 	They were Electrocutioner, Rat-man, Anihilhator, Behemoth, Chryslis, 
> and Shapeshifter. 
> 	They were created by Bill Willingham, and I know them from 
> Elementals fame.  I've never seen the V&V versions, or histories. 
> 	If anyone knows where I can find the V&V version (I'm dying to 
> hear their histories), or has a Champions conversion, lay it on me! 
>  
> 					Eddie Fink Rules. 
> 					     Jason Sullivan 
>  
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 27 Oct 97 05:12:00 GMT 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial a 
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
Path: october!opal 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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 h >  
 h > What you've got to do as a GM is to _restrict_ everybody else's DEX to  
 h > lower levels. Martial Artists built to 'realistic' standards will get  
 h > creamed every time by those DEX 18 Bricks. Ask the other players (and N  
 h > villians) why they should, under their character concept, get more than  
 h > DEX. Suddenly that 23 DEX martial artist isn't looking so bad - especia  
  
Some non-martial artist concepts (speedsters for instance) also call for  
superhuman DEX.  And, it seems wrong to artificially restrict what  
other characters buy.  A non-superhuman (DEX 17-20, SPD 4) Martial Artist  
can certainly hold his own against serious super-heros, even if everyone  
else is running arround at DEX 23, SPD 5.  Level can be the great equilizer  
in such a situation. If you look at the published stuff, most characters  
have either no levels, or only a few.  The most you see is 4 or 5.  
So, after you've spent say, 40 pts on your martial arts (giving you  
say, 4 DC's and a substantial range of manuevers, including an offensive  
strike, so you can do 12d with your 20 STR), drop another 15 into  
martial arts levels (thats +5), and another 15 into DCV levels to  
help out against ranged attacks (+3).  Your DCV with a Martial Dodge  
is now (assuming 20 DEX) 20!  The cool part is that you dodge, and keep  
that obscene DCV until your next phase, while higher SPD characters  
either save and waste phases or throw attacks at you hoping to roll  
a 3.  :)   I've done pretty well with characters like this, both against 
 
really fast Speedsters and Martial Artists, and tougher brick types.  
Of course you better get a little armore so you don't get killed  
when your luck runs out and that autofire KA/hurrled car/firball/  
whatever taggs you when you least expect it.  
  
Still, the 'normal' (Stat wise) Martial Artist can work, you just  
need very abnormal skill.  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 27 Oct 97 05:33:02 GMT 
Subject: Overdoing/Underdoing Dis 
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Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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 h > From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com>  
 h > Subject: Overdoing/Underdoing Disads?  
 h > To: champ-l@omg.org  
 h >  
 h > Overdoing/Underdoing Disads?  
 h >  
 h >  How harsh are most of us on character disads?  
 h >  
 h > Do you look for a chance at every turn to stomp on a PC using it's  
 h > disads?  
  
Of course not.  They come up if they come up.  When the villains are 
 
really frustrated with a PC though, I do have them do thier homework  
and try to work against disads as apropriate.  
  
 h > Do you just ignore them for the most part?  
 h >  
Not ignore, no.  But, each character propably has 6-12 disads, and  
I can't keep track of every one all the time, and make sure they  
all come up.  
  
 h > Use them as minor subplots or to flesh out a character?  
 h >  
YES!  the best use of disads...  
 h > Or some mix of these methods?  
 h >  
 h >  Should a character with a DNPC always find themselves rescuing  
 h > the DNPC from danger? Or they should they mostly find themselves just  
 h > being sidetracked into subplots with that DNPC?  
 h >  
Well, depends on whether it's an 8- DNPC or 14-.  I never make the  
rolls unless I just have no ideas at all, but thier a guideline.  I  
figure the 14- DNPC sticks to you like glue, and have them around  
most of the time, but don't force them into contrived situations.  
Other DNPC's I use mainly for Roleplaying oportuinities and the  
occassional hostage scenario.  
  
 h >  Where does one draw the line on this?  
 h >  
 h > Rook  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 27 Oct 97 05:38:04 GMT 
Subject: Re: Unbalanced Mental Po 
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"Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>  
 r > Opal wrote:  
 r > >  
 r > >  h >  
 r > >  h >      If someone gets a telepathy, and very good mind scan and  
 r > >  h > for example. He can make a telepathy link with someone of his  
 r > >  h > then away from the danger of the battle, and receiving  
 r > >  h > the battle from his partner he could just mind scan and ego  
                                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  
 r > >  h > opponent his partner could detect, being almost completely  
 r >  
 r >  
 r > Mental powers require "line of sight", which I (and I think most other  
 r > GMs) interpret to mean "must be able to perceive the target with a  
 r > targeting sense."  Telepathy is not a sense, let alone a targeting  
 r > sense.  
  
Mind Scan is.  Telepathy sure acts like a sense in some ways, but I  
know it isn't one officially (still like to see Invisiblity vs Mental  
Senses work on Telepathy tho).  
  
 r > What you want is Clairsentience: normal vision, Limited Power:  
 r > requires a  
 r > successful ECV roll (-1).  I would give breakout rolls at each  
 r > increment  
 r > on the time chart as well.  The reason that I would give such a large  
 r > limitation is that the target, not the user, is in control of what is  
 r > seen and when.  
  
That is another alternative.  
 r >  
 r > >  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:56:37 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Familiar Creation 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 34 
 
>I'm trying to develop a familiar for Fantasy Hero.  Seems simple enough, 
>right.  Buy the familiar itself as a follower, tag on mindlink, Psych 
>Lim for protectiveness, Susceptabilities/Physical Lims to handle carrying 
>over damage and the shock should the Familiar somehow get killed. 
 
Sounds about right. 
 
>Now 
>comes the problem.  The pet's master should be able to use the familiar's 
>senses.  Sence this reasonably isn't deminished over distance, I have to 
>set up the power to work on a planetary scale.  So I get: 
 
Eeek! No, no, don't go with the planetary scale, boss! How about giving the 
Familiar Mental Illusions he can pipe to the master? 
 
>Clairscentience: 
>    All Sense Groups (Sight, Hearing, Taste/Smell, Radio)	60 pts 
>    Base Range 600m	                                       0 pts 
>    Doubling Of Range (x11)	                              55 pts 
>115 Active Points 
 
Bad, ugly, and way point-heavy. Why radio? 
 
>First issue, does this really sound like a 115 Active Point Power?  I'm 
>not saying it's not significant or useful, it's just 115 AP seems awfully 
>high. 
 
Hey, it's worldwide! And it's sense-heavy. Don't use groups, use normal 
hearing, normal sight, normal smell/taste. 30 points. Second, keep the range 
down to 100km or something. If you're separated from your familiar more than 
that, you're doing something wrong. 
 
Talk to your GM. Maybe he'll let your Mind Link relay senses for an extra +5 
points to the Mind Link. Relaying senses isn't a lot more than relaying 
thoughts, really. 
 
>Secondly, obviously there have to be some limits here, but I have 
>no idea how much they should be worth.  Only to Use Familiar's Sences? 
>Should it be -1, like a mindlink only to someone with a mindlink?  More? 
>Less? 
 
-1 is good. 
 
>What other limits do you think appropriate? 
 
Concentrate. 
 
>Having a Familiar is 
>certainly nice and useful, but should it really price to have the total 
>value of the charater?  Even if the Clairscentience comes down to, say, 
>38 for limitations, you've still got the Mindlink (5pts) and the Follower 
>(15 pts, at least).  That's still 58 points right there. 
 
Think about the +5 CP to funnel senses through a Mind Link. I don't think 
it's abusive. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"You know, I feel pretty good." 
"Yeah, me too. I've got a real positive attitude." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:56:43 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Funky Powers (the 3rd Generation) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 35 
 
>	Two words: 
>		Prehensile Hair 
> 
>	Yes...  Prehensile Hair.  Think about it.  A character 
>who's power is LIVING HAIR.  Maddening, no?  Here's the best part... 
>It has lots and lots and lots of possibilities. 
 
Extra Limbs: Hair. 5 CP. 
 
>	It grows!  (stretching) 
>	It's strong!  (+ STR [Hair ONLY]) 
>	It can feel it's way around?  (Hair sense???) 
 
Plain old touch sense. 
 
>	It can be used to move!!!  (Swinging, Climbing, and 
>		perhaps even Running) 
>	It can whip out and attack with a fury unknown to man 
>          or beast!!!!!  (+ SPD [Hair ONLY]!?!?!, + HA, 
>			    + OCV, Hair-Fu?!?!) 
 
Yuck, SPD only for hair? Nope, nope, bad idea. Hair Fu would be neat, though. 
 
>	It can brace you in a windstorm, change lightbulbs, 
>	  wax your car, make iced tea, play baseball (missile 
>	  deflection & reflection). 
 
and Knockback Resistance 
 
>	Unfortunately, it can be cut (with no 'BODY' damage to 
 
OIF - lots of it, and it grows back quick. 
 
>	So, true belivers, give me what you think this furry-fury 
>should have and could have.  
 
30 VPP: Hair Powers [30] 
30 VPP Control: Cosmic (+2), Limited Powers (reasonable hair stuff) (-1/2) 
 
Voila. Note that a 30 point multipower with enough multi slots to cover all 
the stunts would cost more, most likely. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"You know, I feel pretty good." 
"Yeah, me too. I've got a real positive attitude." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 27 Oct 97 06:08:06 GMT 
Subject: Familiar Creation 
X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com 
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Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
Path: october!opal 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 46 
 
 
 
 h > From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>  
 h > Hey guys! Got a question.  
 h >  
 h > I'm trying to develop a familiar for Fantasy Hero.  Seems simple  
 h > to  
 h > set up the power to work on a planetary scale.  So I get:  
 h >  
 h > Clairscentience:  
 h >     All Sense Groups (Sight, Hearing, Taste/Smell, Radio) 60 pts  
 h >     Base Range 600m                                        0 pts  
 h >     Doubling Of Range (x11)                               55 pts  
 h > 115 Active Points  
 h >  
  
OK, unless you want to use your Familiar as a forward observer for  
mental powers and other Line-of-sight attacks, you probably don't  
really need the Clairsentience.  The Mind Link alone should be  
adequate.  That is if all you want is for the Familiar to relay  
information  
  
 h > First issue, does this really sound like a 115 Active Point Power?  
 h > not saying it's not significant or useful, it's just 115 AP seems  
 h > high.  Secondly, obviously there have to be some limits here, but I  
 h > no idea how much they should be worth.  Only to Use Familiar's Sences?  
 h > Should it be -1, like a mindlink only to someone with a mindlink?  
 h > More?  
  
If you must go with the Clairscentience, it should get pretty good  
limitation for only going to the familiar (as opposed to anywhere on  
earth you want!).  Since the familiar can be spotted and attacked, and  
such attacks hurt you, and it probably can't range too far, too fast,  
I'd give it a big limit -1 to -2.  The lim would be 'only to see exactly  
what the familiar sees.'  
  
 h > Less?  What other limits do you think appropriate?  Having a Familiar  
 h > certainly nice and useful, but should it really price to have the  
 h > value of the charater?  Even if the Clairscentience comes down to,  
 h > 38 for limitations, you've still got the Mindlink (5pts) and the  
 h > Follower (15 pts, at least).  That's still 58 points right there.  
 h >  
  
I don't think it's apropriate.  My advice is drop the Clair.  
  
 h > Any thoughts or ideas would be welcome.  
 h >  
 h > PAX,  
 h > John  
 h >  
  
One thing that Familiars are notorious for doing is enhancing the  
powers of thier masters.  An Aid to your magical powers would be  
apropriate.  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 27 Oct 97 07:21:08 GMT 
Subject: Funky Powers (Part Deux) 
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X-UID: 45 
 
 
 
 h > From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>  
 h > Subject: Funky Powers (Part Deux)  
 h >  
 h >  Astronaut Mark Nomis is hurled through an extra-dimensional  
 h > worm hole.  After exiting, he slowly begins to recall the events which  
 h > happened in the '5th dimension.'  He has been infected with an alien  
 h > symboite known as Xlr.  The union has formed 'Second Thought,' the  
 h > hero with two brains.  
 h >  Essentially, what we have here is a character with two  
 h > brains.  In previous posts, I believe we've tackled MPS  
 h > using multiform (mental attributes only), as well as a dual form  
 h > that makes up one entity (Atom Guy).  
 h >  The symbite can live on it's own, even infect other people  
 h > if it wished to do so.  Any comments on Possession, biological or  
 h > mystical,  Symboites or Parasites (who by their very nature augument  
 h > the abilities of an individual),  or Super powered individuals with  
 h > two brains are welcomed and encouraged.  
 h >  We (Xlr and I) thank you in advance.  
 h >    I have this strange craving for Tungsten,  
 h >      Jason Sullivan  
  
Ok.  I have some modifications I made to Duplication for my own  
games that bears on this:  
  
  
Duplication:  
     An Exact duplicate can be bought with a -1/2 power  
limitation.  Exact duplicates cannot have any power, skill, or  
talent that the base form does not also posses, nor can they have  
characteristics, powers, skills, or talents purchased to a higher  
level than the base character.  It is possible for the base form  
to buy powers linked to his duplication and for duplicates to buy  
those powers as well (though they won't get the limitation).  
There is one advantage associated with exact duplicates:  each  
increment of duplication doubles the number of duplicates instead  
of merely adding one additional duplicate.  
     It is also possible to have all duplicates pay the cost of  
the duplication power.  This is a -1/2 limitation.  It  
effectively forces the lower point duplicates to take more  
disadvantages while allowing the base form to take fewer.  This  
limitation should usually be applied to all duplicates to keep  
bookkeeping simpler.  A character with this limitation can take a  
+1/4 advantage to allow him to use any of his duplicate forms as  
his base form.  That is, the character could chose which of his  
duplicate's stats is used when all duplicates have re-combined.  
     Finally, it is possible to take a strange limitation:  
Duplicates share one body -1.  This represents a character who  
has multiple consciousness inhabiting a single body.  Each is  
still built as a separate character, but all must buy exactly the  
same set of physical characteristics (all except INT,EGO,and  
SPD).  The duplicates can have different skills and powers.  
However all powers that apply to the body such as defenses,  
movement and size powers must be purchased by all duplicates. The  
character's body cannot act on more segments than the duplicate  
with the highest speed.  However each duplicate can have the body  
perform different non-contradictory actions at the same time.  
Note that if a targeting sense is being used by one duplicate, it  
becomes non-targeting for all the other duplicates (unless they  
attack the same target).  
  
  
Obviously, the last paragraph is the one that applies.  The  
Duplicates sharing a body could perform separate 'mental'  
actions (use Mental Powers), but must either do so on sepparate  
segments or use different Targeting senses.  
  
Enjoy.  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 23:24:00 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Black Hole 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>  
> The problem is that with a real black hole, once inside the event horizon 
> you *CANNOT* get out.  Anything with mass -- even light and other forms of 
> electromagnet radiation -- is trapped within.  The event horizon is the 
> boundary where the singularity's gravity will overcome all other forces. 
> What is commonly called a "black hole" is the event horizon: "black" 
> because light cannot escape it, "hole" because everything falls into it. 
>  
> The only way "out" of a black hole is not to have any mass.  Without mass 
> it is unaffected by gravity and can escape.  The way to do that in 
> Champions is certain limited special effects for Desolidification, and it 
> has to be active at the time. 
>  
> Yes, I am taking something of an exteme angle on this.  It is more to show 
> that one can do just about anything with Champions... but just because one 
> can do a thing does not mean that one should do it. 
> 	I am fully aware what a black hole is suppost to be.  However,  
Stephen Hawkings (I believe) theorizes that black holes can effectively  
evaporate which means not every thing which is sucked in stays in.  However,  
that is not the point which I wish to make at this time. 
 
	The point that I was trying to make was that assuming you are sane,  
you are trying your best to get the hell away from the area containing the  
above entity.  It has been described in varing ways ranging from TK to flight  
combined with variuos damage attacks.  As all of the attacks should be linked  
to each other, and some of the "attack" forms had UAO, it could be advanced  
that if you had some form of superior movement (long range teleport, FTL or  
dimensional travel [what about time travel to somewhen else when the hole is  
somewhere else]), they could be used as a defence from the attacks. 
 
	The basic problem in the real world is that by the time you get to  
the event horizon, you are dead from tidal forces anyway and hence, what  
happens when you get to the other side of the event horizon is not worth  
worring about.  This is the attack that should be made after the TK or flight  
is used to pull the target close enough. 
 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 01:18:25 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy? 
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William K Bushway wrote: 
>  
>         Little value, indeed.  I, for one, have a habit of ignoring 
> threads that have degenerated into petty arguments.  I find no 
> game-relevance in the "Study of Damaged Brains has no relevance to Healthy 
> Brains" argument, unless for some reason I wanted to role-play said 
> argument. 
 
IMHO, the original discussion (how does language affect the encoding of  
thoughts in the brain) *was* relevant and interesting.  I, for one, like  
to tie my rulings and campaign techno-babble back to my best  
understanding of how the world really works. 
 
Mr. Jones: if you have an alternative theory of how the brain works that  
might be useful from a GMing perspective, please present it.  If you are  
aware of authoritative texts, articles or web sites that present your  
position, please name them.  Thank you for your cooperation; The Computer  
is your friend. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 07:06:28 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: UAO NND 
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At 02:40 PM 10/26/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
> 
>BG>    Excuse me, but... duh yourself!  That happens to be almost the exact 
>BG> opposite of what my copy of the BBB tells me NND does!  In point of 
>BG> fact, the first sentence of the second paragraph states that the 
>BG> defense for NND has to be "reasonably common" (unless it's a set of 
>BG> "uncommon" things, and "being deslidified" isn't a "set" of anything). 
> 
>Go read my original post where I made the comment that there really is no 
>defense against a real black hole.  The closest that Hero gets is NND. 
 
   That particular comment, I offer no argument on at all.  In fact, I 
think your original construct is somewhat faulty; it probably should have 
been massive TK with Area Effect: Radius rather than Flight UAO.  (It's not 
so much that the black hole forces things to fly into it than that it sucks 
them toward, using its own forces.) 
   What I'm trying to figure out is why you're putting NND on a UAO Power. 
It still just doesn't scan.  (It's for that reason that I changed the topic 
header here.) 
--- 
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X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 20:08:17 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial a 
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Jon Prins wrote: 
>>Level can be the great equilizer  
>>in such a situation. If you look at the published stuff, most characters  
>>have either no levels, or only a few.  The most you see is 4 or 5.  
>>So, after you've spent say, 40 pts on your martial arts (giving you  
>>say, 4 DC's and a substantial range of manuevers, including an offensive  
>>strike, so you can do 12d with your 20 STR), drop another 15 into  
>>martial arts levels (thats +5), 
> 
>Ick. I don't like 3 point levels in Martial Arts. Most have more than 3 
>maneuvers, making it VERY efficient. I prefer 5 point levels in hand-to-hand. 
> 
I'm with you here... I felt this way when I read the original post, but 
realized that it was *strictly* book legal... besides, these Martial Artists 
still wouldn't be better able to hit with a regular "Strike" if they didn't 
have the 5-point H-to-H levels... 
 
>And yes, levels CAN make a difference, but buying Levels is never as cheap 
>or efficient as buying raw DEX. 3 DEX = 9 points, for which you get: 
> 
>+1 OCV 
>+1 DCV 
>+3 Lightining Reflexes 
>+.3 SPD 
>and probably +1 to all DEX rolls and DEX skills. 
> 
>Buying all this with Levels/talents would cost you 20-odd points. No wonder 
>folks go for high DEX over DEX + levels. PCs aren't stupid... 
> 
Actually, I think that would be "Players aren't stupid..."  The PCs don't 
"spend points" on their abilities, they learn them... 
I guess I'm lucky w/ most of my MA PCs... they seem to want to get real good 
at their Art, so they take the levels...  but they have the higher DEXs 
anyway... 
While I can agree with your arguments on a theoretical level... it would be 
really hard for me to go back and change 5 years of my gaming...  the game 
world is fairly set.  My *Players* are fairly set.  And it doesn't bug us 
*that* much to have the DEXs and SPDs where they are. 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 07:13:54 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Flight in Space 
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At 05:35 PM 10/27/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote: 
>-- What limits normal flight.  A hero has 25" flight with x4 non combat.  
> What stops him going faster.  Air friction vs power out from whatever  
>gives him his flight. 
> 
> In space, there is no air friction to speak of.  Assuming that  
>the special effects of the flight allow movement in space, everybody has  
>in effect unlimited non combat multiples.  (This is, of course, ignoring  
>relativity.)  The only thing that would hold this back would be long term  
>endurance and consideration for turn modes.  
 
   I'm just musing here (so someone with a better knowledge of physics than 
I may feel free to contradict me -- as though they wouldn't anyway), but I 
think that the proximity of a large gravitational body could have an effect 
as well.  After all, in space all movement is relative (and for that 
matter, on a planet all movement is relative to the planet). 
--- 
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X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 20:21:30 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Grey Areas 
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Capt Spith wrote: 
>   I believe that the method in The Book gives one major advantage over 
>a "base-cost-only" system; advancing through experience.  I know some 
>GMs (perhaps official rules, but I don't think so) restrict expenditure 
>of XP to whichever form(s) were active during the XP-earning period; if 
>a character spent an entire adventure in 'base form', the XP could not 
>be spent on any of the other forms; if a character split a game approx. 
>evenly between two forms, the total XP has to be split between the two 
>forms, etc.  I don't agree with this method. 
>   If spending XP on a Multiform character, the two (or more) forms can 
>be compared on an ongoing basis easily, and while one form can be buying 
>up power, another can be buying off disads, but both will continue to 
>maintain a verifiable relationship with each other (structurally).  
 
I'm not clear on what you are saying here...  I don't find the "spend xp 
based on which form you were in" abusive to the Players, and I'm unsure why 
you may.  Also, your comments on spending xp on the Multiform is a little 
confusing (to me)...  Do you allow the 'base' form to spend his 1 xp to give 
the Multi form 5? 
The way I've been running it myself is that the 'base' form is the only form 
to gain xp... and would get the 5 points to spend on its Multi if it spent 
them that way...  but I've only had one guy with a Multiform in the 5 years 
I've run my games...  lucky? 
 
>Besides, if a dup/multi is bought based on 'base' points, SOMEBODY would 
>try to get away with spending 10 points for 5 10+115 point duplicates. 
> 
Perhaps if, when purchased on base points, you can only tack on 1.5x the 
base in points in Disadvantages?  So, if you get a 100 base Multi, it can 
only have a max of 150pts in Disads?  I'd also probably try and enforce that 
for Computers/AIs, Vehicles and Bases... except in rare circumstances... 
(The car really *is* a piece...) 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 07:21:58 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Funky Powers (the 3rd Generation) 
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At 03:52 PM 10/26/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>>  It can whip out and attack with a fury unknown to man 
>>           or beast!!!!!  (+ SPD [Hair ONLY]!?!?!, + HA, 
>>        + OCV, Hair-Fu?!?!) 
> 
>That bonus SPD part is a big no-no.  Much more trouble than it's worth and 
>a real rules violation.  The hair should be considered to be dice of Hand 
>Attack, with some levels in OCV due to being hard to block (or predict). 
 
   I kinda like the "Hair-Fu" idea. 
   But then again, I'm the guy who wrote "Invasion of the Gweenies." 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 07:26:19 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Funky Powers (the 3rd Generation) 
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At 07:36 AM 10/26/97 -0600, Bryce Berggren wrote: 
>>>  It can whip out and attack with a fury unknown to man 
>>>           or beast!!!!!  (+ SPD [Hair ONLY]!?!?!, + HA, 
>>>        + OCV, Hair-Fu?!?!) 
>> 
>>That bonus SPD part is a big no-no.  Much more trouble than it's worth and 
>>a real rules violation.  The hair should be considered to be dice of Hand 
>>Attack, with some levels in OCV due to being hard to block (or predict). 
> 
>Real rules violation? It's practically verbatim from the Extra Limbs 
>section: if you want to buy extra attacks with extra limbs as the special 
>effect, buy more SPD. 
 
   Not in my copy; it just says that you don't automatically get extra 
attacks for having Extra Limbs.  It says nothing (at least, where I'm 
looking) about how you go about getting those extra attacks. 
   In Watchers of the Dragon, Maya (a four-armed woman) does this with 
Autofire on her Martial Arts attacks.  So this character could do the same 
with Autofire on a HA or something similar. 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 07:31:16 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Hobbits 
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At 08:04 AM 10/26/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>>   2) Does anyone here know whether hobbits are strictly Middle 
>Earth, or 
>>yet another race taken from mythology?  I've been trying to find 
>>extra-Tolkienic sources on hobbits, with no luck thus far... 
> 
>Well, the Tolkien estate did sue TSR over the "halflings". Since it 
>would be legitimate to use the name if it was found elsewhere, even if 
>the description were of Tolkien's version, "halfling" must be from 
>Tolkien alone. After all, they didn't try to sue over orcs, dwarves, 
>elves, or that demon that wasn't named a "balrog", but was just the 
>same. 
 
   This is kinda weird.  The reason I asked about this is that the early 
volumes of the CityBook series used the term "hobbit," and then abruptly 
switched to using "halfling," and I was trying to figure out if there'd 
been a problem with the Tolkien estate. 
 
>I am reasonably sure that "hobbit" is pure Tolkien. 
 
   It's looking more and more like that's the case.... 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 07:38:59 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Invisibility, Flash, Darkness 
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At 03:19 PM 10/26/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
> I'm designing an annoying antagonist who is a bubbly, cute 
>teen-- and also happens to be totally unhittable.   
> Her name is Mischeif.  For some reason, no human can target her. 
>Guns have been drawn on her, even at the closest of ranges, yet they 
>never hit.  Martial Artists will be embarassed because (gasp!) they 
>swing, but miss. 
 
   Something I've done with this is a mechanic that no doubt most people 
will consider to be an atrocity:  Invisibility, with Invisible Power 
Effects.  You can still see the character, but she's not really where you 
see her, so the harder you try to hit her the less likely you are to 
actually connect. 
   (I invented this for a villain to teach a lesson to the guy who wanted a 
42 DEX on his PC.  Soon after, I killed the PC with his understanding of 
the reason why, and things were under control after that.  That's not a 
tactic I'd normally recommend, but it was tailor made and successful for 
this individual player.) 
 
> Her power is mentally based.  I was thinking about giving 
>her Invisibility (no fringe, targeting senses only), as well as  
>Flash (targeting sense), and darkness (personal immunity, targeting 
>sense). 
 
   Out of these, the Invisibility is probably the only one that would 
actually be helpful.  Only vs the targeting aspect of a sense (if that's 
what you mean by "targeting senses only"; I'm guessing that from context) 
would probably run you about a -1 Limitation. 
   Maybe she could just have scads of DCV levels?  Giving it the "Psionic" 
Limitation (from The Ultimate Mentalist, -1/2) would reflect its nature as 
a Mental Power.  She could then have 15 such levels at a cost of 50 points. 
 
> She is a misguided individual...  and perhaps are heroes can 
>make her come over to the side of goodness!  (Fat chance...)  Mind you, 
>she's still vulnrable to things like sticky Entangles, Flashes, AoE 
>powers, and Bear Traps (KA, Increased Stun Mult., Trigger, OUCH)... 
>So, how much do you think this is going to run her (point wise)? 
> BTW, did I fail to mention her power of Invisibility is Always On? 
>...and she uses her power to steal stuff? 
> Well, tell me what you think... 
 
   Have you been reading up about Plain Jane (from Underworld Enemies)? 
She's rather similar.... 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 07:46:12 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Vampires vs Water 
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At 12:54 PM 10/26/97 -0800, Mann, Wade wrote: 
> In the Hero Bestiary there are two forms of vampires.  The 
>lesser and the greater (go figure) and both of these have the 15 point 
>Physical Limitation: Cannot cross running water (Infrequently, Fully). 
> 
> I thought this interesting because the creators made this a 
>physical limitation which would affect the vampire even if he/she/it is 
>unconscious. 
> 
> Am I reading something in to this?  Let me know. 
 
   I think you may be reading something into this, though it's a minor 
point: I see nothing in the text or on the character sheets that indicates 
that vampires can't cross running water when unconscious. 
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From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Re: Flight in Space 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:14:09 -0500 (EST) 
Organization: VTSFFC 
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>  
> 	In space, there is no air friction to speak of.  Assuming that  
> the special effects of the flight allow movement in space, everybody has  
> in effect unlimited non combat multiples.  (This is, of course, ignoring  
 
  Champs by default dosen't handle this very well.  Normally, we end 
up assuming that in space, inches of flight translate into inches of 
delta-V per phase, and noncombat multiples don't really affect much. 
So yes, everybody has a pretty much unlimited "noncombat" speed. 
It's a quick&dirty method that works OK for supers games where  
space-travel is relatively rare, which is the case for the majority 
of the games I've been in.   
  Admittedly, most of the times when we do end up in space, most of 
the fighting/important stuff ends up taking place inside space stations 
or starships.  Mostly because it's rare for more than a fraction of 
the PC's to have bought enough Life Support to handle space. 
We usually end up declaring that "Zero-Gravity Maneuvering Your own 
body" is a seperate 1-point TF.  Penalties to those without it will 
depend on what the character is trying to do. 
 
                                                   Daniel Pawtowski 
 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:28:06 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified) 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial a 
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> h > What you've got to do as a GM is to _restrict_ everybody else's DEX to  
> h > lower levels. Martial Artists built to 'realistic' standards will get  
> h > creamed every time by those DEX 18 Bricks. Ask the other players (and N  
> h > villians) why they should, under their character concept, get more than  
> h > DEX. Suddenly that 23 DEX martial artist isn't looking so bad - especia  
>  
>Some non-martial artist concepts (speedsters for instance) also call for  
>superhuman DEX. 
 
Yup. Acrobats too. High DEX does not necessarily equal fighting prowess. 
 
>And, it seems wrong to artificially restrict what  
>other characters buy. 
 
As opposed to arbitrary Active Point limitations? Oranges and oranges, IMHO. 
It kinda bugs me when somebody describes their character as a 'lumbering 
mass of animated rock', then buys DEX 18, SPD 4. That 'lumbering mass' puts 
most world-level atheletes to shame. But according to most published 
characters, that's Brick _standard_. Yipes. 
 
That's not to say that a Brick can't be agile and fast. But if it's not a 
part of their super-power focus, it kinda grinds on me when they start 
taking near-human maximum stats. 
 
>  A non-superhuman (DEX 17-20, SPD 4) Martial Artist  
>can certainly hold his own against serious super-heros, even if everyone  
>else is running arround at DEX 23, SPD 5. 
 
And so he should. Note that 'non-superhuman' MA is representative of a 'real 
world' world-class compeditive martial artist. 
 
>Level can be the great equilizer  
>in such a situation. If you look at the published stuff, most characters  
>have either no levels, or only a few.  The most you see is 4 or 5.  
>So, after you've spent say, 40 pts on your martial arts (giving you  
>say, 4 DC's and a substantial range of manuevers, including an offensive  
>strike, so you can do 12d with your 20 STR), drop another 15 into  
>martial arts levels (thats +5), 
 
Ick. I don't like 3 point levels in Martial Arts. Most have more than 3 
maneuvers, making it VERY efficient. I prefer 5 point levels in hand-to-hand. 
 
>Still, the 'normal' (Stat wise) Martial Artist can work, you just  
>need very abnormal skill.  
 
Fine and dandy. BUT, this should have to fit into the character concept. If 
a guy was a 'normal' (albeit skilled) MA before he becomes Brickman, he'll 
keep the good DEX and SPD (unless his powers inherently slow him down or 
something). But if Joe Average becomes Brickman, I don't see why his DEX and 
SPD should suddenly shoot up to near-human-maximum. "Because he needs it to 
be compeditive!" is the wrong answer, IMHO, and if you're getting it, maybe 
it's time to crank back almost everybody's DEX and SPD. 
 
Remember, I'm not saying "We should keep the MAs at human-possible DEX". I'm 
saying that we should keep EVERYONE at 'realistic' DEX/SPD for their 
character concepts, allowing that 20+ DEX to only those concepts that really 
justify it. Like chi-strong Martial Artists, or Speedsters, or 
Ubermen/Super-Soldiers. 
 
And yes, levels CAN make a difference, but buying Levels is never as cheap 
or efficient as buying raw DEX. 3 DEX = 9 points, for which you get: 
 
+1 OCV 
+1 DCV 
+3 Lightining Reflexes 
+.3 SPD 
and probably +1 to all DEX rolls and DEX skills. 
 
Buying all this with Levels/talents would cost you 20-odd points. No wonder 
folks go for high DEX over DEX + levels. PCs aren't stupid... 
 
Plus, if you can control the DEX/SPD war, suddenly everybody has points that 
can go elsewhere. And if everyone keeps the same relative DEX/SPD, everyone 
is still 'compeditive', though agents and the like become a little more 
threating. Not a bad thing - obviously, someone at HERO thinks that we need 
250 point agents to be threatening (Genocide, anyone?). 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"You know, I feel pretty good." 
"Yeah, me too. I've got a real positive attitude." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:34:48 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: RE: Vampires vs Water 
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Rick Ryker wrote: 
>> However, you are right. All those disadvantages that are typical to 
>> vampires don't show up directly on any of the character sheets. Even 
>> these are rather vague, intended to get around the 3rd Ed. limitation 
>> on multiple physical limitations. 
>>  
>Actually, there is no limitation to the number of "like" limitations 
>(e.g., Physical Limitations, Psychological Limitations). 
>The limitation is against getting extra points for limitatations over 
>the limit. 
The 3rd Ed. (well, I know it was in 2nd ED.) did have a different limitation 
on # of a certain type of Disad you could take...  The 3rd+4th were worth 
only x1/2 points, the 5th+6th x1/4, and beyond that, there were no points 
awarded... 
 
>And before anyone says "what's the point of taking the extra limitations 
>then?", 
>let me say that there isn't any except as flavor 
>(or to make an NPC less dangerous than they could be). 
True, flavor has its place.  And, to really balance an NPC... you can break 
the rules for them, you know.  My brother makes a habit of *not* writing up 
NPCs in game terms... just balancing them out to the characters...  doesn't 
have to balance the points, that way. 
 
>Also, if I remember correctly, in Vampire: The Masquerade, 
>it says that elder vampires are not affected by many of the 
>Physical and Psychological limitations that younger vampires are; 
>it seems that if a vampire believes that garlic, holy water, etc. can 
>harm them, then those objects/artifacts can harm them. 
Close...  Kindred, as a rule, are not affected by garlic, holy items, etc... 
some of them have delusions that they are (in Champs terms, Total Psych 
Lims) and actually, a normal with True Faith can deter some Kindred with a 
holy item by the force of their will...  It would get harder to do so to an 
older Generation Kindred. 
>If a vampire believes that sunlight will make the scorch and burn, then 
>it does. 
Um, no.  It burns them anyway.  Just because they're a crazy Malkavian that 
believes they're invincible doesn't mean they won't burn like hell at high 
noon.  Now, the older Gen Kindred are less affected, and some Kindred can 
learn to move about in sunlight in a limited fashion (this is under 
Fortitude, and in Champs would be written as a Power that somehow would 
allow them protection from their Susceptibility to sunlight, which normally 
isn't allowed). 
>Most of a vampires restrictions are mental, 
>but they believe them so strongly that that belief can literally kill 
>them. 
Well, as I said above, the Kindred who have these... I think WW calls them 
Flaws... would have a Total Psych Lim.  "Real" vamps would probably have 
these as Phys. Lims.  (Aversion to Garlic, Aversion to Holy Items) or 
Susceptibilities (to Holy Water or Holy Items).  In a V:tM Hero game, you'd 
have to give human characters (Kine) with True Faith a Power to drive off 
Kindred based on EGO, probably, to represent the battle of wills. 
>Older vampires are not limited by these Physical and Psychological 
>Limitations, or if they are, at least to a much lesser degree. 
True.  But most lesser Generation Kindred aren't affected by your examples, 
either...  The sunlight one is the main one I can think of.  That and 
regular damage, too.  Older Generation Kindred tend to the Badass side of 
the house. 
>On the other hand, the blood of mere mortals ("kine") 
>doesn't satisfy the older vampire's need for blood as well either; 
>and they have to feed on other vampires. 
Also true... and, therefore, is a Disad that gives more points... 
 
- Jerry 
 
Subject: Re: Invisibility, Flash, Darkness 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 11:56:04 -0500 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
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On 10/27/97 10:38 AM, Bob Greenwade (bob.greenwade@klock.com) Said: 
 
>> I'm designing an annoying antagonist who is a bubbly, cute 
>>teen-- and also happens to be totally unhittable.   
>> Her name is Mischeif.  For some reason, no human can target her. 
>>Guns have been drawn on her, even at the closest of ranges, yet they 
>>never hit.  Martial Artists will be embarassed because (gasp!) they 
>>swing, but miss. 
> 
>   Something I've done with this is a mechanic that no doubt most people 
>will consider to be an atrocity:  Invisibility, with Invisible Power 
>Effects.  You can still see the character, but she's not really where you 
>see her, so the harder you try to hit her the less likely you are to 
>actually connect. 
 
I one time had a villian (named Bishop) with Invis, no Fringe, All Senses  
(incl Mental), Invisible Power Effects, Images & TK. He would create the  
image of someone several hexes away, everyone would target that, and the  
TK allowed the Image to pick stuff up and move it around, punch, Etc.  
Godawful Expensive. 
The team took him out pretty quickly, IIRC - they hit the image with  
several AOE/Explosions in one turn (lucky, but aren't players always  
lucky?), and the Bishop had no real defenses... 
 
                                         |  David A. Fair 
        Think Different                  |  SDS International 
                                         |  dfair@sdslink.com 
 
Subject: RE: Vampires vs Water 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 12:06:13 -0500 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
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>> In the Hero Bestiary there are two forms of vampires.  The 
>>lesser and the greater (go figure) and both of these have the 15 point 
>>Physical Limitation: Cannot cross running water (Infrequently, Fully). 
>> 
>> I thought this interesting because the creators made this a 
>>physical limitation which would affect the vampire even if he/she/it is 
>>unconscious. 
>> 
>> Am I reading something in to this?  Let me know. 
 
This simply goes to show that all disad's are not as obvious as you might  
think. 
 
Take the standard "Mentalist in a Wheelchair" schtick. He/She has the  
disad - Cannot walk/Legs unusable. Sounds like a physical lim, but it  
might be a psych lim, depending on the reason. (See Also: impotence.) 
 
                                         |  David A. Fair 
        Think Different                  |  SDS International 
                                         |  dfair@sdslink.com 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Flight in Space 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:06:41 -0800 (PST) 
Cc: hero-l@omg.org 
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>  
> >  
> > 	In space, there is no air friction to speak of.  Assuming that  
> > the special effects of the flight allow movement in space, everybody has  
> > in effect unlimited non combat multiples.  (This is, of course, ignoring  
>  
>   Champs by default dosen't handle this very well.  Normally, we end 
> up assuming that in space, inches of flight translate into inches of 
> delta-V per phase, and noncombat multiples don't really affect much. 
> So yes, everybody has a pretty much unlimited "noncombat" speed. 
> It's a quick&dirty method that works OK for supers games where  
> space-travel is relatively rare, which is the case for the majority 
 
	This is where genre becomes important. In a four color game, 
movement in space is just like movement in atmosphere. You have X inches 
so that's how far you go. 
	This ruling can work for most Super Genre's in fact. The one's 
it can't work for don't tend to end up in space anyway, such as the 
street vigilante types. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy? 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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>>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes: 
 
RAW> IMHO, the original discussion (how does language affect the encoding 
RAW> of thoughts in the brain) *was* relevant and interesting.  I, for one, 
RAW> like to tie my rulings and campaign techno-babble back to my best 
RAW> understanding of how the world really works. 
 
The word you are trying to find is "verisimilitude", which means "of or 
like the truth". 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Flight in Space 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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>>>>> "RH" == Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> writes: 
 
RH> 	In space, there is no air friction to speak of.  Assuming that  
RH> the special effects of the flight allow movement in space, everybody 
RH> has in effect unlimited non combat multiples.  (This is, of course, 
RH> ignoring relativity.)  The only thing that would hold this back would 
RH> be long term endurance and consideration for turn modes. 
 
Real World Physics Warning!  TURN BACK NOW!!! 
 
Language note: speed is, well, how fast a thing moves.  Velocity is speed 
with a direction.  Acceleration is a change in velocity (delta-v). 
 
Given action-reaction as a means of propulsion, velocity in one direction 
is proportional to the velocity in the opposite direction.  If your 
expelled reaction mass' maximum speed is X then your maximum potential 
speed is also X.  Realistically speaking, nothing can achieve maximum 
potential speed because the mass of the object being accelerated is always 
greater than the mass of the reaction mass being expelled. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: UAO NND 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
BG>    What I'm trying to figure out is why you're putting NND on a UAO Power. 
BG> It still just doesn't scan.  (It's for that reason that I changed the 
BG> topic header here.) 
 
Because there is no other advantage that restricts what can be used as a 
defense in an all or nothing situation. 
 
As for why XDM, I was operating under the premise that once caught in the 
gravity well a thing cannot get out, at all, ever.  TK can be broken; XDM 
cannot. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:10:29 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Flight in Space 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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Stainless Steel Rat writes: 
> Real World Physics Warning!  TURN BACK NOW!!! 
Worse yet, _incorrect_ real world physics.  Sigh. 
>  
> Given action-reaction as a means of propulsion, velocity in one direction 
> is proportional to the velocity in the opposite direction.  If your 
> expelled reaction mass' maximum speed is X then your maximum potential 
> speed is also X.  Realistically speaking, nothing can achieve maximum 
> potential speed because the mass of the object being accelerated is always 
> greater than the mass of the reaction mass being expelled. 
 
In the case of most rockets, the mass of the propellant will exceed the mass of 
the payload.  The maximum delta-V a rocket can achieve is equal to 
Ve*ln(Mr/Mp), where Ve is the velocity of the rocket exhaust, Mr is the mass of 
the rocket, and Mp is equal to the mass of the payload (and ln is the natural 
logarithm).  Note that ln(Mr/Mp) _can_ exceed 1, and in fact will do so for any 
rocket which can reach orbit -- no rockets currently available have an exhaust 
velocity reasonably closely approaching orbital velocity for the earth. 
 
X-Sender: jhebert@texas.net 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 14:34:29 -0600 
From: Jeff Hebert <jhebert@texas.net> 
Subject: New Champions site 
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I just wanted to invite all of you to come take a look at a new Champions 
site we have set up: 
 
http://lonestar.texas.net/~jhebert/crusaders.htm 
 
It features heroes and villains from our campaign world, and some pretty 
good graphics (if I do say so myself). My best friend and I did all of the 
illustrations; John has done work for Hero games before, most notably in 
Champions of the North, as well as books for White Wolf and Steve Jackson 
Games. I have done ... well ... the graphics on The Crusaders site! 
 
This is not an ad, and the site is not for profit -- we just thought as 
fellow Champions gamers you would be interested in checking it out. We 
think it's somewhat unique, in that it is set up as if The Crusaders 
actually existed, and this their official  page. As a result there are no 
number write-ups or overt Champions references, which I haven't seen before 
(not that it hasn't been done, I am sure, but I haven't run across it before). 
 
Anyway, I hope you take a moment to check out the site, and let us know 
what you think. 
 
Thanks! 
 
 
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
               Jeff Hebert 
            jhebert@texas.net 
 http://lonestar.texas.net/~jhebert/crusaders.htm 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 03:02:34 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Familiar Creation 
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Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:06:35 EST 
Subject: Re: Funky Powers (the 3rd Generation) 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-121 
From: dman666@juno.com (Darren B Hansen) 
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>> 	Two words: 
>> 		Prehensile Hair 
> 
>Actually, I myself am interesting in seeing opinions on this concept, 
>especially after viewing "The Bride With the White Hair".  Who? you  
>say... 
>just another awesome example of Hong Kong funky martial arts cinema. 
>Brigette Lin rocks! 
>  
>> 	Yes...  Prehensile Hair.  Think about it.  A character 
>> who's power is LIVING HAIR.  Maddening, no?  Here's the best part... 
>> It has lots and lots and lots of possibilities. 
>> 	It grows!  (stretching) 
> 
>Simple: Stretching. 
> 
>> 	It's strong!  (+ STR [Hair ONLY]) 
> 
>+'x' STR, Does not affect figured (-1/2), Can only be used to grab, 
>squeeze etc (-1?)   
>Note: if put in a Multipower, then you have to drop the "Does not  
>affect 
>figured". 
> 
>> 	It can feel it's way around?  (Hair sense???) 
> 
>Spatial Awareness with... (hmmmm) No Range.  When combined with the 
>Stretching you can use your hair to feel where things are. 
> 
>> 	It can be used to move!!!  (Swinging, Climbing, and 
>> 		perhaps even Running) 
> 
>I'd go with the Climbing and Swinging parts. 
> 
>> 	It can whip out and attack with a fury unknown to man 
>>           or beast!!!!!  (+ SPD [Hair ONLY]!?!?!, + HA, 
>> 			    + OCV, Hair-Fu?!?!) 
> 
>That bonus SPD part is a big no-no.  Much more trouble than it's worth  
>and 
>a real rules violation.  The hair should be considered to be dice of  
>Hand 
>Attack, with some levels in OCV due to being hard to block (or  
>predict). 
> 
>> 	It can brace you in a windstorm, change lightbulbs, 
>> 	  wax your car, make iced tea, play baseball (missile 
>> 	  deflection & reflection). 
> 
>Nope.  In order of your examples the powers would be: extra STR, 
>Stretching (or Extra Limb), ditto, ditto, ditto.  Well, maybe 
>Deflection/Reflection on Thrown Objects for that last one. 
> 
>> 	Unfortunately, it can be cut (with no 'BODY' damage to 
>> 	  the Hair hero herself), burned (hair does burn, you 
>> 	  know), and is subject to bad perms, sticky messes, 
>> 	  and other hair-raising experiences. 
>> 	...but it grows!  (grows back...  quick!) 
> 
>Special Effects.  Unless you want to have a Phys Lim or even a 
>Susceptability saying otherwise.  Heh, I can see it down: Suscept: 3d6 
>Drain to Hair Multipower is hit with a fire based attack. 
> 
>In "The Bride" (awesome flic BTW and the sequel is pretty cool as  
>well), 
>she produces her hair at will and has an endless supply of strands. 
>  
>> 	So, true belivers, give me what you think this furry-fury 
>> should have and could have.  How would you structure it, what could 
>> the 'hair' do (bad pun),  what couldn't the hair do (FTL hair?   
>No.), 
>> how would you represent the hair's 'BODY' (Eiee! Another pun!), 
>> how do you deal with extra attacks (extra SPD) that ONLY the hair  
>gets, 
>> what about other abilities (...Tim, for the last time, there is no  
>Lim 
>> 'Linked to Hair' [or is there?]), what about the weaknessess that 
>> specifically target the hair itself? 
> 
>Off the top of my head, the Bride would have the follwoing (most  
>likely in 
>a Multipower): 
> 
>Extra STR - she grabbed, held and crushed people with her hair. 
>Stretching - in order to use her hair at range.  The Bride's max range  
>was 
>something like (oh...) 40 feet. 
>Entangle - Huge No Range AoE: Radius Entangle, where she launches her  
>hair 
>in all directions and wraps everyone up tight.  One could link some  
>form 
>of crush or backlash effect to this. 
>RKA - she would send stands of hair *into* people.  This could be an 
>autofire attack, since the Bride usually sent several. 
>HKA: The Bride whips her hair about and neatly cuts someone's throat. 
> 
>Note: some of these attacks are Continous and Uncontrolled.  She  
>whacks X 
>with some hair, lets him writhe in pain and then turns her attentions  
>to 
>some other poor sod.  One way to stop the Continous effect was to cut  
>the 
>hair (takes one phase and the hair is DEF x Body x...) 
> 
>These ideas good enough? 
> 
>*************************************************************************** 
>* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano  
>Orbatos,Orion *  
>*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net              
>   *  
>*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:      
>   *    
>*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html           
>   * 
>*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT          
>   * 
>* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of  
>St.Mark * 
>*************************************************************************** 
> 
> 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Flight in Space 
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>>>>> "AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes: 
 
AJ> In the case of most rockets, the mass of the propellant will exceed the 
AJ> mass of the payload. 
 
True for total propellant mass, but not for propellant mass being ejected 
while accelerating, which is what is critical for maximum velocity 
calculations.  Ejected propellant mass cannot be greater than total 
propellant mass. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:45:01 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Flight in Space 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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Stainless Steel Rat writes: 
 
> True for total propellant mass, but not for propellant mass being ejected 
> while accelerating, which is what is critical for maximum velocity 
> calculations.  Ejected propellant mass cannot be greater than total 
> propellant mass. 
 
Uh...true, but irrelevant.  Maximum velocity is based on the weight of the 
payload vs weight of propellant, not weight of loaded craft vs weight of 
propellant.  Given modern propellants (typical exhaust velocity of 3-4 
km/seconds), by your logic it is impossible to reach orbital velocity (between 
7 and 8 km/second).  Now, orbital velocity is actually pretty challenging, but 
a rocket using a propellant with a 300 second (3 km/second) specific impulse is 
capable of reaching orbital velocity (of 7.8 km/second) if it is at least 93% 
fuel by weight. 
 
This is, in any case, moderately irrelevant to the HERO system, which happily 
ignores physics; I only commented because what you were saying was so horribly 
wrong. 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 04:54:47 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Familiar Creation 
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At 12:54 AM 10/28/97 -0500, Egyptoid@aol.com wrote: 
>I would buy it this way: 
> 
...and overcharge yourself. 
 
>A.  Familiar buys mind link, only to master,  10-20 points 
 
Mind Link, one other mind.  5pt.  Only to (person who has Mind Link) Master, 
-1.  2 points, 5 Active.  Or, if it's interplanetery or interdimensional, 5 
pt, 10 Active.  Both would be 7 and 15.  And, I believe, most Familiars 
don't give Powers across dimensions/space... 
 
>B.  Master buys mind link 
>       advantages: can read familiars sense inputs +3/4, 
>        limitations: only to familiar,  concentrate, etc, etc    15-30 points 
>other limitations and advans. as youu see fit. 
> 
Well, again, Mind Link, one mind (familiar), 5pt.  Same Lim as above.  Using 
the +3/4 Adv you presented (not sure where you got the value, but, well, 
whatever...) this would cost 4 pts, 9 Active.  Tacking on other Lims just 
brings this down further... 
> 
>So the Fam. & the Wiz have two channels of mind link: 
>Channel A is for speaking & telepathic contact            (audio) 
>Channel B carries sensory data, like telemetry         (video) 
> 
Agreed here. 
 
>This seems to do your trick for a lot less points and 
>has as much range as mind link. 
> 
Because it is, of course, Mind Link.  I think you have a point, tho.  Can 
this just be modeled with an Advantage on a Mental Power? 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:01:13 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re:  Funky Powers (the 3rd Generation) 
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At 12:56 AM 10/28/97 -0500, Egyptoid@aol.com wrote: 
>Hair: 
>This is what I like to give players with ideas like this: 
> 
>Give the character a total speed of 8: 
>4 regular phases: 3 6 9 12 
>and 4 phases extra: 2 5 8 11 (only to do hair actions) 
> 
Do they get a Lim on the additional 4 SPD?  Maybe you could just charge them 
for a SPD of 6, and then average it out...  or not, because that would only 
be for a -1 Lim.  Hmmm... 
 
>comeliness aid 
> 
It's goofy... but it *might* *just* work! 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:30:49 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Black Holes (Pt 2) 
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-- Continueing my post from the day before.... 
 
	How would I build a black hole?  After I wrotew my last post, I  
thought about it for a while and came up with this. 
 
	Take the "more" common black hole.  The one found out in space. 
 
First:	Gravity - Either 200 str TK or +200" flight, doesn't matter, AOE  
Explosion which loses 1 str point or 1" flight per real world meter for  
small ones up to 1 str point or 1" flight per couple hundred kilometers  
for the big ones.  (Read flight in space for what I mean by +200"  
flight). 
 
Second:	Tidal Forces - 10D6 KP AOE Explosion, loses 1DC like gravity  
above but over a shorter distance. 
 
	Thats it for the most part.  Black holes have 12 speed so the  
effects are there full time.  The area around black holes tend to be  
radiation rich so unless the poor sod has anti-radiation life support or  
a sufficently strong force wall/field, s/he is going to roast.  And if   
said sod happens to survive to reach the event horizon, pat him or her on  
he back, say "Well done.  Didn't think anybody would get this far.   
What's your next character." 
 
	Now all of this assumes that said black hole is "out there  
somewhere."  What about Graviton, Master of Gravity who can, if not  
actually make one, can duplicate the effects of a black hole down here. 
 
	Treat the hole as small, don't worry about the "+" part of the  
flight and increase the effects of the radiation.  Yep, space is to all  
intents and purposes, empty.  An atmosphere is not.  All that air getting  
accellerated to light speed gives off a damn lot of intense gamma's.  It  
will also have a flash attack attached.  It will almost be like the sun  
has come out right in your neibourhood. 
 
	So, no need for NND attacks.  No need for attacks against limited  
defences.  Quite simple, straight forward powers.... which are way above  
anything a balanced 250 pt character could get. 
 
 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:35:40 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Flight in Space 
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-- What limits normal flight.  A hero has 25" flight with x4 non combat.  
 What stops him going faster.  Air friction vs power out from whatever  
gives him his flight. 
 
	In space, there is no air friction to speak of.  Assuming that  
the special effects of the flight allow movement in space, everybody has  
in effect unlimited non combat multiples.  (This is, of course, ignoring  
relativity.)  The only thing that would hold this back would be long term  
endurance and consideration for turn modes.  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:46:21 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Familiar Creation 
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John P Weatherman wrote: 
>  
> Hey guys! Got a question. 
>  
> I'm trying to develop a familiar for Fantasy Hero.  Seems simple enough, 
> right.  Buy the familiar itself as a follower, tag on mindlink, Psych 
> Lim for protectiveness, Susceptabilities/Physical Lims to handle carrying 
> over damage and the shock should the Familiar somehow get killed.  Now 
> comes the problem.  The pet's master should be able to use the familiar's 
> senses.  Sence this reasonably isn't deminished over distance, I have to 
> set up the power to work on a planetary scale.  So I get: 
>  
> Clairscentience: 
>     All Sense Groups (Sight, Hearing, Taste/Smell, Radio)       60 pts 
>     Base Range 600m                                            0 pts 
>     Doubling Of Range (x11)                                   55 pts 
> 115 Active Points 
>  
> First issue, does this really sound like a 115 Active Point Power?  I'm 
> not saying it's not significant or useful, it's just 115 AP seems awfully 
> high.  Secondly, obviously there have to be some limits here, but I have 
> no idea how much they should be worth.  Only to Use Familiar's Sences? 
> Should it be -1, like a mindlink only to someone with a mindlink?  More? 
> Less?  What other limits do you think appropriate?  Having a Familiar is 
> certainly nice and useful, but should it really price to have the total 
> value of the charater?  Even if the Clairscentience comes down to, say, 
> 38 for limitations, you've still got the Mindlink (5pts) and the Follower 
> (15 pts, at least).  That's still 58 points right there. 
>  
> Any thoughts or ideas would be welcome. 
>  
> PAX, 
> John 
 
-- I'm sorry, but do you want the senses of the familiar where you are, or  
are you after the senses of the familiar where IT is. 
 
   The second is easier.  Mind link gives you the ability to see what the  
other end sees (and smells, hears, touchs, etc).  For using your familiars  
senses where you are, by the senses yourself with a limitation, only if  
familiar awake, alive, linked, whatever. 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com> 
Subject: RE: Vampires vs Water 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:03:04 -0500 
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> However, you are right. All those disadvantages that are typical to 
> vampires don't show up directly on any of the character sheets. Even 
> these are rather vague, intended to get around the 3rd Ed. limitation 
> on multiple physical limitations. 
>  
Actually, there is no limitation to the number of "like" limitations 
(e.g., Physical Limitations, Psychological Limitations). 
The limitation is against getting extra points for limitatations over 
the limit. 
And before anyone says "what's the point of taking the extra limitations 
then?", 
let me say that there isn't any except as flavor 
(or to make an NPC less dangerous than they could be). 
 
Also, if I remember correctly, in Vampire: The Masquerade, 
it says that elder vampires are not affected by many of the 
Physical and Psychological limitations that younger vampires are; 
it seems that if a vampire believes that garlic, holy water, etc. can 
harm them, 
then those objects/artifacts can harm them. 
If a vampire believes that sunlight will make the scorch and burn, then 
it does. 
Most of a vampires restrictions are mental, 
but they believe them so strongly that that belief can literally kill 
them. 
Older vampires are not limited by these Physical and Psychological 
Limitations, or if they are, at least to a much lesser degree. 
On the other hand, the blood of mere mortals ("kine") 
doesn't satisfy the older vampire's need for blood as well either; 
and they have to feed on other vampires. 
 
-RICK 
 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:05:32 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Familiars and mind links 
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-- Sorry.  My stuff up.  Mind link doesn't allow you to see what he sees.  
 For some reason, I thought it did. 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com> 
Subject: RE: Non-Stereotypical Minority Supers 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:14:29 -0500 
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> At 02:03 PM 10/17/97 -0500, Rick Ryker wrote: 
> >Germans called themselves Allemagne (sp) which meant "All the People" 
>  
>    Does that mean that Hitler proved Lincoln wrong by fooling All the 
> People all of the time? 
>    (Sorry; arguably bad taste there.  I just couldn't resist the pun.) 
>  
Ouch. 
 
Actually, many Germans were not fooled by Hitler. 
They also figured he'd just go away, eventually. 
 
(After all.  Many european countries have endured bad monarchs. 
And that's all a military dictator really is. 
And that's how many monarchies got started.) 
 
Unfortunately, he took many, many people with him before he went. 
 
-RICK 
 
 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Black Hole 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:28:17 -0800 
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I have considered the problem of a black hole's event horizon, and I 
have determined the game mechanic: Extra-dimensional Movement, Damage 
Shield, UAO. Defenses could be XDM, FTL, or TP and Desolid with the 
proper special effects. Beyond the event horizon is a space entirely 
separate from the outside world- therefore, it can be properly 
represented by another dimension. 
 
Once past the event horizon, you are on you own. Even the best 
physicists will tell you they don't actually have a clue what happens 
then. _Maybe_ you continue to fall towards the center, compressing 
down to a mathematical point. But no one knows. 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com> 
Subject: RE: UAO NND 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:32:43 -0500 
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Bob Greenwald and Stainless Steel Rat argued: 
 
>BG>    Excuse me, but... duh yourself!  That happens to be almost the 
exact 
>BG> opposite of what my copy of the BBB tells me NND does!  In point of 
>BG> fact, the first sentence of the second paragraph states that the 
>BG> defense for NND has to be "reasonably common" (unless it's a set of 
>BG> "uncommon" things, and "being deslidified" isn't a "set" of 
anything). 
> 
>Go read my original post where I made the comment that there really is 
no 
>defense against a real black hole.  The closest that Hero gets is NND. 
 
   That particular comment, I offer no argument on at all.  In fact, I 
think your original construct is somewhat faulty; it probably should 
have 
been massive TK with Area Effect: Radius rather than Flight UAO.  (It's 
not 
so much that the black hole forces things to fly into it than that it 
sucks 
them toward, using its own forces.) 
   What I'm trying to figure out is why you're putting NND on a UAO 
Power. 
It still just doesn't scan.  (It's for that reason that I changed the 
topic 
	header here.) 
 
<switch clippings> 
 
> BG>    What I'm trying to figure out is why you're putting NND on a 
> UAO Power. 
> BG> It still just doesn't scan.  (It's for that reason that I changed 
> the 
> BG> topic header here.) 
>  
> Because there is no other advantage that restricts what can be used as 
> a 
> defense in an all or nothing situation. 
>  
> As for why XDM, I was operating under the premise that once caught in 
> the 
> gravity well a thing cannot get out, at all, ever.  TK can be broken; 
> XDM 
> cannot. 
>  
To be blunt, the power of a black hole is an AE TK, period. 
A black hole's TK get's stronger the closer you get to it with NO UPPER 
LIMIT. 
Once a character passes the Blue Event Horizon (the point at which light 
cannot 
travel fast enough to escape the gravitational effects of the black 
hole), that's it. 
You can't model this using a point restricted character. 
Try to break an Area Effect 9999D6 TK hold.  Just try. 
(The fact that I stopped at 4 digits should not be construed as a limit 
to the number of dice.) 
 
On the other hand, you would be dead well before getting within light 
years 
of a black hole due to the gravity differential between your head and 
your feet. 
Imagine X minus one hundred Gs pulling on you feet and X minus two 
hundred Gs 
pulling on your head.  You would be literally pulled to pieces. 
(Waaaayyyy before you get the chance to be squashed.) 
 
(Please, don't make me do the math.) 
 
-RICK 
 
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com> 
Subject: RE: Multilingual Telepathy? 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:43:11 -0500 
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> In Old English, for instance, 
> swords are often described as "brun" - that is, brown. These are not 
> rusted or bloody swords, merely swords of a fairly dull color which 
> the 
> Anglo-Saxons grouped as brown. 
>  
Mostly because they were made of bronze, 
a word which is derived in part from the word for the color brown. 
 
-RICK 
 
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com> 
Subject: RE: The Dreaded TRANSFORM (was Grey Areas) 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:16:41 -0500 
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> Another grey area that I have found is that some GMs count BODY damage 
>  
> towards a transform, while others do not.  Each seems to make sense 
> for  
> certain special effects. 
>  
It has always been my understanding that the two types of BODY 
were counted separately, that using BODY to measure the progress 
toward transformation was only a useful method of gauging a being's 
inherent resistance to being transformed. 
 
As I said in an earlier post (I think), the power point costs for 
Transform were 
originally based on the premise that if a player can be killed in one 
blow, 
then he/she can be transformed.Killing attacks can be thought of as 
being 
bought as cumulative transforms, versus PD, with a major affect (death). 
15 pts = 1D6.  (This is from an article by the designers in AC.) 
 
-RICK 
 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:56:21 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Buckaroo Banzai 
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BUCKAROO BANZAI 
 
Designers Notes: 
Buckaroo Banzai is the character played by actor Peter Weller in the movie 
"The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai: Across the Eighth Dimension".  The 
film is delightfully strange, combining high-technology, alien invasions 
and music.  Although a commercial failure, the film still lives on as a 
"cult classic". 
 
Buckaroo was born to Masado Banzai and Sandra Willoughby in London winter 
of 1950.  At the age of five, the young Buckaroo was his parents die in a 
fiery jetcar crash (engineered by the evil Hanoi Xan).  He then spent his 
next nine years in Denver, attending school as well as learning how to 
ride, shoot and use the lasso.  From there he went on to college, 
including Merton Collage, Oxford and Columbia P & S.  While at Merton, he 
proposed to Peggy Simpson (who was killed at a later date).  Eventually, 
he would go on to found the Banzai Institute (at the age of 22).  In many 
ways, Buckaroo is a modern Doc. Savage, with skills and intellect that are 
far beyond the human norm.   
 
Description: 
Buckaroo is of average height and weight, with black hair and a piercing, 
intense  gaze.  He is physically fit, and works out regularly, but isn't 
exceptionally muscled.  Normally, Buckaroo dresses in casual clothing.   
 
Powers Notes: 
Although trained in kenjutsu and karate, Buckaroo's greatest weapon is his 
mind.  He is a scientific genius, and has been (or is); a brain surgeon, 
race car driver, musician and engineer of a number of interesting 
'theoretical' devices (like his Oscillation Overthruster).  He has 
traveled extensively through the far East and is well versed with the 
cultures of the Orient.  He has studies medicine as well a involving 
himself with carrying on his parents research in physics.  Possibly his 
greatest invention is his "Oscillation Overthruster", which allowed him to 
drive a truck through a mountain (by pushing the truck into the... Eighth 
Dimension!).  On top of all that, Buckaroo is an accomplished musician. 
 
Aside from his intellectual prowess, Buckaroo is well versed with the 
martial arts, and can handle most firearms comfortably.  He is a well 
balanced person emotionally, and resists torture quite well.  Buckaroo 
also has the vast resources of his base "World Watch One" to draw upon. 
This includes numerous labs, vehicles and a mobile bus/base/home.  On top 
of that, Buckaroo has a number of allies to aid him in his adventures; the 
Hong Kong Cavaliers (Billy Travers, New Jersey, Pecos, Perfect Tommy, 
Rawhide and Reno).  The Cavaliers seem to be specialists of some sort or 
another (such as vehicle technician, computer hacker, medic etc), as well 
as musicians and bodyguards.  Finally, he can call upon the services of 
his Blue Blaze Irregulars, a national (international?) group of fans who 
can be counted on to help him out as best they can. 
 
Disadvantages Notes: 
As stated before, Buckaroo is a fairly stable person (mentally).  His main 
hang up is that he is an ascetic, and denied himself physical comfort and 
pleasure (in the novelization of the movie his quarters are described as 
'spartan').  On the other hand, Buckaroo is fairly driven to find and hunt 
down Hanoi Xan, the man who killed his parents and wife to be. 
 
In turn, Buckaroo is hunted by the World Crime League (headed by Hanoi 
Xan), as well as Lord John Whorfin and his Red Lectroids.  Whorfin desires 
revenge against Buckaroo for certain events that occurred when Whorfin and 
Banzai's father committed were involved in physics experiments back in the 
30's. 
 
Penny Priddy is Buckaroo's current love interest.  She bears an amazing 
resemblance to Buckaroo's slain fiancee (and, if memory serves is the 
woman's sister). 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		15		5 
Dex		18		24 
Con		15		10 
Body		11		2 
Int		30		30 
Ego		21		24 
Pre		25		20 
Com		16		3 
PD		6		3 
ED		5		2 
Spd		4		12 
Rec		6		0 
End		30		0 
Stun		30		5 
Char Total			140 
Power Total			326 
Total Cost			466 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
	Martial Art: Kenjutsu - use art with Swords 
4	Bind   
4	Block  +2 OCV  +2 DCV  Block, Abort 
4	Evade  +0 OCV  +5 DCV  Dodge vs All, Abort 
4	Lightning Stroke  +2 OCV  +0 DCV  Weapon +2d6 (+1DC) 
5	Running Stroke  +1 OCV  +0 DCV  Weapon +v/5; Full Move 
5	Slashing Stroke  -2 OCV  +1 DCV  Weapon +4d6 (+2DC) 
 
	Martial Art: Karate 
0	Block  +2 OCV  +2 DCV  Block, Abort 
4	Disarm  -1 OCV  +1 DCV  Disarm, 25 STR 
0	Dodge  +0 OCV  +5 DCV  Dodge vs All, Abort 
3	Legsweep  +2 OCV  -1 DCV  4d6 Strike; Target Falls 
4	Punch/Snap Kick  +0 OCV  +2 DCV  5d6 Strike 
0	Side/Spin Kick  -2 OCV  +1 DCV  7d6 Strike 
 
5	Cramming 
15	Luck: 3d6 
3	Resistance: +3 to EGO 
 
3	AK: Far East 15- 
3	Breakfall 13- 
3	Combat Driving 13- 
3	Computer Programming 15- 
3	Criminology 15- 
3	Deduction 15- 
9	Electronics 14- 
3	Inventor 15-- 
2	KS: Oriental Customs and Life Styles 15- 
2	KS: Medicine 15- 
2	KS: Musician 15- 
2	KS: Philosophy 15- 
7	Mechanics 13- 
3	Paramedic 15- 
3	Persuasion 14- 
2	PS: Doctor (INT)  15- 
2	PS: Musician (PRE) 14- 
2	PS: Race Car Driver (DEX) 13- 
2	PS: Singer (PRE) 14- 
3	Riding 15- 
2	SC: Brain Surgery 15- 
2	SC: Electrical Engineering 15- 
2	SC: Mechanical Enginering 15- 
2	SC: Medicine 15- 
2	SC: Overthruster Engineering 15- 
2	SC: Particle Physics 15- 
2	SC: Physics 15- 
2	SC: Quantum Physics 15- 
3	Tactics 15- 
5	WF: Common Melee Weapons, Lasso, Small Arms 
3	Jack of All Trades 
3	Linguist 
3	Scientist 
3	Scholar 
50	Base: World Watch One 
8	Contact: President of the United States 14- 
30	Follower: Hong Kong Cavaliers (6 x 75 point base) 
	[Billy Travers, New Jersey, Pecos, Perfect Tommy, Rawhide, Reno] 
55	Follower: Blue Blazer Irregulars (1,024 x 25 point base) 
1	Perk: Doctor 
15	Perk: Filthy Rich 
9	Lang: Japanese (native), Vietnamese, English (native),  
	Mandarin Chinese, Cantonese Chinese 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
15	DNPC: Penny Priddy (normal) 11- 
25	Hunted: World Crime League (Mopow, NCI) 11- 
20	Hunted: Lord John Whorfin/Emilio Lizardo and the Red Lectroids  
	(Aspow) 14- 
20	Normal Characteristic Maxima 
15	Psych: Ascetic [denies himself pleasures and luxuries] 
20	Psych: Hunting Hanoi Xan [killer of his parents and wife] 
10	Public ID 
15	Rep: Helps the helpless 14- 
226	No Matter Where You Go, There You Are Bonus 
 
(Buckaroo Banzai created by W.D Richter and Earl Mac Rauch, character 
sheet created by Michael Surbrook.  Additional material by Steve Kramer.) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From: HTC0NY@aol.com 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:25:43 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Destroyers on the Web 
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I finished the C4 transliteration of Bill Willingham's Destroyers over the 
weekend, and got them posted to the Web.  If you would prefer (or need) an 
e-mail copy, I can provide one. 
 
http://members.aol.com/morpheusxx/cast/hero/destroy.htm 
 
see you on the 'net, 
patric 
 
patricr@aol.com 
http://members.aol.com/morpheusxx 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:54:19 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re:  Re: Re: Re: Re: Black Hole 
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In a message dated 10/26/97 a bunch of people wrote: 
>>>The problem is that anything with mass cannot accelerate past "c". 
>>Anything can move slower than c; hypothetically things can travel faster 
>than c.  But crossing c is impossible so long as there is mass. 
 
I switch my VPP to FTL. I escape. End of story. 
 
See my earlier comment on telepathic "realism". 
-- 
Elliott 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:54:21 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re:  Re: Vampires vs Water 
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In a message dated 10/26/97 9:35:45 AM, bob.greenwade@klock.com wrote: 
>   So I started this thread for nothing.  Champions Universe vampires don't 
>have a problem crossing running water, so the original question is moot. 
 
Maybe not in your champions universe, some of mine do... 
chekc the bestiary, as well. 
But really: 
Shouldn't it depend on the origin of the vampire? 
-- 
Elliott 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:54:23 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re: Familiar Creation 
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I would buy it this way: 
 
A.  Familiar buys mind link, only to master,  10-20 points 
B.  Master buys mind link 
       advantages: can read familiars sense inputs +3/4, 
        limitations: only to familiar,  concentrate, etc, etc    15-30 points 
 
other limitations and advans. as youu see fit. 
 
So the Fam. & the Wiz have two channels of mind link: 
Channel A is for speaking & telepathic contact            (audio) 
Channel B carries sensory data, like telemetry         (video) 
 
This seems to do your trick for a lot less points and 
has as much range as mind link. 
-- 
elliott 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:54:28 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Multilingual Telepathy? 
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In a message dated 10/26/97 a bunch of people wrote: 
>>> According to a friend of mine that used to be a neurology major, this is 
>>> not completely accurate.  It is not that the impulses are dissimilar, it 
is 
Enough Please!  
Champions telepathy says "Mindi can talk to Brikki". end of sentence. 
It doesn't say how, or why, or what. 
If you as GM want to make Mindii buy limitations on Telepathy 
about language, brain structure, phylum, or the phase of the moon, 
IYC I don't care. But please stop muddying the waters with your real world 
physics or medicine. Don't try to make others overthink the rulebook and 
make it say what it does not. This is a discussion list for super-hero 
topics, 
not a university lab, thank you. Next you'll be telling us that speedsters 
have to have a certain ED level or else they burn up with air friction... 
-- 
Elliott 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:56:42 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re:  Flight in Space 
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In a message dated 10/27/97 1:46:42 AM, rholding@ActOnline.com.au wrote: 
>In space, there is no air friction to speak of.  Assuming that  
>the special effects of the flight allow movement in space, everybody has  
>in effect unlimited non combat multiples.  
wrong, unless you bought that as an advantage. 
What limits flight speed?     the BBB. 
I paid for 27 inches, I go 27 inches, 
vacuum or not. 
-- 
Elliott 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:56:42 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re:  Funky Powers (the 3rd Generation) 
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Hair: 
This is what I like to give players with ideas like this: 
 
Give the character a total speed of 8: 
4 regular phases: 3 6 9 12 
and 4 phases extra: 2 5 8 11 (only to do hair actions) 
 
And the core power is: 
a small VPP, limited to only things that hair can do: 
 
TK 
Flash (poke eyes) 
Light missile deflection 
swinging 
stretching 
comeliness aid 
swimming 
images (spell words with it) 
 
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:01:27 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy? 
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>  
 
> RAW> like to tie my rulings and campaign techno-babble back to my best 
> RAW> understanding of how the world really works. 
>  
> The word you are trying to find is "verisimilitude", which means "of or 
> like the truth". 
 
No, actually, I wasn't *searching* for "verisimilitude", although that  
is a good and apt word.  ;-) 
 
Pooh Bah	Merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic 
		verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing 
		narrative. 
 
Sir W.S. Gilbert, "The Mikado," act II. 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:57:45 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Grey Areas 
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Capt Spith wrote 
<my stuff deleted> 
>   Sorry if I was unclear; I had a stream-of-conciousness thing going 
>which increases my typing speed but reduces clarity. 
 
Don't think that's a *huge* problem... as long as you are willing to come 
back later and clear it up : ) 
<bit about equal experience spending deleted, too> 
So... you let them gain XP for *all* of their forms, and then spend it 
whichever way they like to, right?  ok...  Then I can't disagree with what 
you've said here (w/o doing the math).  It appears mathematically sound, anyway. 
I'm just still not sure if this (way of XP expenditure) is the way I want to 
go...  or the way the Power is written. 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:15:40 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial a 
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Capt Spith wrote: 
>Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
> 
>> While I can agree with your arguments on a theoretical level... it would be 
>> really hard for me to go back and change 5 years of my gaming...  the game 
>> world is fairly set.  My *Players* are fairly set.  And it doesn't bug us 
>> *that* much to have the DEXs and SPDs where they are. 
> 
>   I found my own solution to the DEX and SPD war, based on the idea 
>that 'everything's relative'.  Since it's nigh impossible to convince an 
>entire gaming group to start using DEXes of 12 and 14, I change the 
>benchmark on the other end.  In my world, an "average" person will have 
>a 3 SPD and 15 to 18 DEX. This means that it is not horribly uncommon 
>for normal folk to occasionally show up with 18 DEX and 4 SPD. 
Yow!!!  While this would help keep normals on a more normal footing... I 
don't like it.  I think the PCs have inflated DEX and abilities because they 
are 'named characters' (Feng Shui reference) and, more importantly, the MAIN 
characters.  Their important foes would also have these 'inflated' 
abilities, while lesser 'unnamed characters' or 'mooks' (or thugs or orcs 
or... agents) would be along lower lines...  although your way would give an 
excuse for why the otherwise normal gadgeteer PC had a DEX 23, SPD 5 (one of 
my players...). 
>   While saving one's character 20 extra points by having EGOists and 
>Bricks take human-normal DEX and SPD would be nice, my method means that 
>they will still have to deal with 'normals' in their adventures.  This 
>also enables Supers to actually receive _help_ from the normals on 
>occasion. 
er.  My guys have to deal w/ normals *all the time*.  Innocent 
bystanders/victims, enemy agents (who are well trained enough to be an 
actual threat), and even neutral agents (usually gov't types, who may be 
suspicious of the heroes, and have authority and power over them).  Normals 
IMC aren't useless in combat, either...  ex. it still took Force two punches 
to put down a normal woman (she hit him w/ a modified Taser to knock out his 
suit... was still doing a 7d6 Martial Strike...). 
>   I ran one game some time ago with superheroes built on 100 base + 50 
>disads, limiting DEX and SPD to human levels except for your basic 
>'speed-intensive' concepts.  I found I really liked the dynamic of the 
>Supers not being able to simple ignore the molasses-slow normals, so 
>when I ran a 'regular'-level Supers game, I simple bumped up the average 
>for normals to keep the same relative average. 
Well, if I were running a street level campaign, and the Players had bumped 
their DEX/SPD stats up that high... I might assume they were *just* above 
average, and make the normals reflect this...  but I like the feel that my 
PCs are *powerful* and bumping normals up that high *on a regular basis* IMC 
would kind of ruin that effect for me and my Players... 
As a caveat, tho...  many NPC 'normals' IMC *do* have higher DEX/SPD...  I 
ran a Martial Arts tournament scenario where there were only 2 metahuman 
participants... who weren't using their Powers (which weren't really 
directly related to their Art anyway) for fear of being discovered as a 
"mutie freak," and having their Secret IDs blown...  Some of their opponents 
were simply good (see Skilled Normal write-up in BBB), but most of them were 
around 20 DEX and 4 SPD... and they had MA and levels, too.  Yes, one of the 
Players won the tournament...  but it was really tough!!!  He loved it, and 
felt like he really achieved something worthwhile. 
>   I'll bet your players would have fewer problems with faster normals 
>than they would with lowering their own stats.  And since it's their own 
>points they're unnecessarily spending on DEX and SPD, you might as well 
>let them have their own way.... 
Um... Maybe one fewer problem...  They wouldn't have to rewrite their 
characters...  But they would lose the SPD advantage over mere mortals that 
they have right now.  It's only a slight edge to many of my heroes (who have 
SPD 4) with a slightly larger edge as you go up...  I have a fairly even 
split between 4 and 5... just a few guys w/ 6...  and just one guy (a feral) 
who is running around w/ a 7 SPD (30 DEX).  He'd notice the sudden leap in 
normal reaction speed the most.  As it is... he killed 2 Ninja, 10 meters 
apart, in 6 seconds.  (They were, I should point out, 'generic' Ninja... 
unnamed characters.) 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:32:10 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Presence Attacks/Defense 
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Alone at Midnight wrote: 
>Greetings, 
Hiya! 
>	Is it possible to purchase additional 'dice' for a PRE attack, 
>much like a HA? 
Well, the way I've seen it done *is* comparable...  buy an increased CHA, 
with the Lim of "Offensive Only (-1/2)."  This gives you a 3/die cost, and 
this PRE is only usable for PRE attacks, and possibly for PRE 
rolls/PRE-based skills but only to influence someone... 
>	Can you purchase defenses against PRE attacks (i.e. Armor vs. 
>Presence Attacks/Presence Attacks Defense, Normal & Resistant Damage 
>Reduction against Presence Attacks, etc.)? 
Also seen this done with a Lim on a CHA... "Defense Only (-1)," which gives 
a 1/2pt of defense cost.  The Adventurer's Club that I own (AC#26) listed it 
as a separate Power, PRE Defense... the only difference is the stipulation 
that it could be added to your EGO stat as well, if that were more 
beneficial (if your EGO is higher).  For your other Powers mentioned... I 
have never seen a Killing PRE Attack, nor do I want to.  So, Resistant is a 
moot point.  I have seen someone use Damage Reduction against PRE, recently, 
in the Destroyer write-ups mentioned on the list.  Also, conceivably... you 
*could* buy PRE as Armor Piercing, to ignore 1/2 the unHardened PRE of your 
opponent. 
>	...and how does COM effect presence attacks? 
It doesn't officially (AFAIK).  The only BBB effect that COM seems to have 
is roleplaying...  Optionally, from my copy of Champions III (and I believe 
one of the Almanacs), you can add 1/2 your *negative* COM score to your PRE 
for making fear-based PRE attacks... you are so horribly ugly that you 
literally scare people.  Negative COM costs 1/2 point/point of COM below 
zero... so you can get COM (- 10) for 0.  (+1d6 to fear-based PRE attacks... 
but you can't get a date for the prom!)  Say, an interesting way to do that 
is take the COM (-10) stat OIHID... you'd look perfectly normal normally... 
and then you could scare the expletive out of someone when powered up! 
Cost: 0pt  (Still has several drawbacks... people would react badly in RP 
situations...  The character could *kindly* be called fugly.) 
>	What about Advantages/Limitations?  Could you apply them to 
>said Attacks/Defenses?  To PRE?  To both?  What if you could apply them 
>to both... What would not having the Adv/Lim on one or the other do 
>to your Presence and PRE based attacks? 
Well... the Advs/Lims I mentioned above good enough for ya? 
 
- Jerry 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: UAO NND 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:48:43 -0800 
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On Monday, October 27, 1997 5:58 PM, Rick Ryker wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>On the other hand, you would be dead well before getting within light 
>years 
>of a black hole due to the gravity differential between your head and 
>your feet. 
 
No. 
 
A black hole with the mass of the sun has the same gravitational 
effect at a distance as the sun. If the sun were to be suddenly 
replaced by a black hole the same mass as the sun, the Earth's orbit 
wouldn't change at all. 
 
A black hole's power comes from approaching it's center of mass too 
close. If you are the same distance from the gravitational center of a 
black hole the size of the sun as the radius of the sun, then you only 
experience the gravity of the sun. However, the black hole is much, 
much smaller than the sun. As you get closer and closer to its center 
of mass (far inside the surface of the sun, where the mass overhead 
would counteract the increase in gravity caused by your approaching 
the center of gravity), the gravity becomes greater and greater, until 
it becomes impossible for you to escape, you pass the event horizon, 
and you disappear forever. 
 
A black hole so large it could generate 200g at a distance of light 
years is so large that the tidal forces are negligible. The smaller 
the black hole, the greater the tidal forces. Really, _really_, REALLY 
large black holes have no measurable tidal forces at all. 
 
>Imagine X minus one hundred Gs pulling on you feet and X minus two 
>hundred Gs 
>pulling on your head.  You would be literally pulled to pieces. 
>(Waaaayyyy before you get the chance to be squashed.) 
 
True, if the black hole is small enough. The smaller the black hole, 
the greater the difference in force being applied near its surface and 
the force a few feet away. An Earth mass black hole would rip you 
apart. A sun mass black hole would rip you apart. A black hole that 
could exert 200g at distances of light-years wouldn't hurt you by 
tidal forces at all. 
 
You might want to do the math after all. 
 
Filksinger 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 03:21:31 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Acronyms 
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At 09:54 AM 10/28/97 -0500, David Fair wrote: 
>>Does anyone have a good villain organizational name made with an acronym? 
> 
>Some of these are tongue-in-cheek, some not: 
> DOOM:  Dominicus Ordanicus Organizatia Minionus (Really Bad Fake Latin, 
> supposedly means "The Organized Minions of 'Him Who is Ordained to Rule  
> in Dominion over All'") 
 
Nice, even if it is fake. :]  A long while back, I got sick of Champions's 
"Not-An-Acronymitis" and started assigning acronyms to any organization they 
insisted on printing in all-caps (VIPER, for example, is "Vanguard In 
Preparation for Earth's Rule").  I worked out DEMON in latin, beginning with 
"Deus Es Mortum" (God Is Dead) ... then promptly forgot it. I've been trying 
to work out those last two letters for the past year, and still haven't 
found a satisfactory solution. 
 
== 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 03:21:33 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Adjustment vs. END Reserves 
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At 12:33 PM 10/28/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>	When you target an END Reserve to Drain/Transfer are you affecting 
>the END and REC seperately or collectively?  Can you choose to affect 
>them as a whole or one at a time? 
 
I've never seen a specific "END Reserve Drain".  I'd probably begin with 
HERO Pat Reply #1 ("It depends on the special effects."), then hazard the 
following outline. 
 
If you're hit with an END drain, it all goes to the END (and at the usual 
2/1 rate, not 10/1 like originally purchased).  If you're hit with a REC 
Drain, only the REC is drained.  If you're hit with a Power Drain (usually 
something that takes out any/all powers of one SFX), split the total and 
drain each equally. 
 
Really, this question is another one of them "grey areas" that popped up in 
another thread, insofar as you can apply it to any "fragmented" power (does 
Drain nail noncombat multipliers?  Fine Manipulation on TK? And so on, and 
so on ...) 
 
-- 
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X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:00:28 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
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At 11:48 AM 10/28/97 -0800, Sam Bell wrote: 
> 
>-> From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net Tue Oct 28 10:50:13 1997 
>->  
>-> >>>>> "AAM" == ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> writes: 
>->  
>-> AAM> Salutations, 
>-> AAM> 	Anyone care to place statstics on various types of bombs... 
>-> AAM> Specifically, different types of thermonukes, and their after effects. 
>->  
>-> Seriously... read a book.  Strategic thermonuclear weapons are a plot 
>-> device. 
>->  
> 
>Seriously... read some comic books. There are several heroes who have survived 
>nukes. Simulating nukes should not be outside the scope of superhero gaming. 
> 
But were those characters previously shown as being able to survive 
something like that?  I think Firestorm may have been hit w/ a nuke... but I 
don't think he was able to survive it.  It became a plot device, and I think 
that's when his character changed slightly, isn't it? 
I don't think Rat meant a plot device solely in that "your character can't 
survive it, so you'd better stop it from going off."  It may very well be 
the character *could* survive it... just how would be the plot device... 
Maybe it would be a "radiation accident" in the extremest sense. 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 04:25:15 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
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At 01:02 PM 10/28/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>	Anyone care to place statstics on various types of bombs... 
>Specifically, different types of thermonukes, and their after effects. 
 
I know they did up nukes in one of the HERO System Almanacs, but I don't own 
'em.  Lessee ... some quick math here: 
 
1.      1 stick dynamite = 1/2 lb. 
2.      Dynamite ~= 80% explosive force of TNT. 
3.      Little Boy (aka Hiroshima) = 12.5 kilotons TNT. 
4.      Therefore, LB =   62,500,000 sticks of dynamite. 
5.      p. 203 indicates that x2 dynamite sticks = +2d6K. 
6.      62,500,000 is close to 26 "x2s". 
7.      That's 52d6, PLUS the original 5d6 for 1 stick of dynamite. 
 
Therefore a 12.5 kiloton thermonuclear device is worth 57d6K.  Add +2d6 
every time you double the size of the bomb.  Add "Explosive" advantage (and 
probably Area Effect: Radius, to create a killzone with a depleting fringe), 
shake well, serve with radiation suits.  "Nice" GMs (as if there was 
anything nice about a GM who'd dump 171 DC attacks on you, heh, heh) can 
split this into two attacks, one vs. PD to represent the blast wave, and one 
vs. ED to represent the thermal pulse.  A thermonuclear explosion gets 2 DC 
thermal pulse for every 3 DC of blast wave (so for little boy, figure 34d6 
physical and 23d6-1 energy). 
 
Some might think that HERO's damage curve is too steep (that x2 should equal 
+1 DC, as it does for STR damage), in which case this would be converted 
down to 14d6-1 KA -- still enough to instantly incinerate anyone within its 
full effect even if they have tank-level armor. 
 
As far as after-effects, you'd want to link a big Drain vs. electronic 
devices (EMP) and a Transform (topsoil to fallout) with the same areas of 
effect (roughly). 
 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 04:09:59 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Grey Areas 
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Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
   (Capt. Spith's ramblings on Multiform Etiquette snipped) 
 
> I'm not clear on what you are saying here...  I don't find the "spend xp 
> based on which form you were in" abusive to the Players, and I'm unsure why 
> you may.  Also, your comments on spending xp on the Multiform is a little 
> confusing (to me)...  Do you allow the 'base' form to spend his 1 xp to give 
> the Multi form 5? 
> The way I've been running it myself is that the 'base' form is the only form 
> to gain xp... and would get the 5 points to spend on its Multi if it spent 
> them that way...  but I've only had one guy with a Multiform in the 5 years 
> I've run my games...  lucky? 
 
   Sorry if I was unclear; I had a stream-of-conciousness thing going 
which increases my typing speed but reduces clarity. 
   Let's say you have a Multiform character with three forms.  The 
'base' form is built on 180 points.  Both other forms are also built on 
180 points.  So the cost of the character (in base form) is 180 points + 
the cost of the multiform [(180/5=36)+(180/10=18)]=54 points, for a 
total of 234 points.  So the base form has 100 points + 134 in disads, 
while both alternate forms have 100 points + 80 in disads. 
   Upon earning XP, the character spends an _equal_amount_ on each form, 
yielding a result of maintaining a 54 point difference between the base 
form and the alternates.  And it is verifiable on an ongoing basis; 
after 34 XP earned, the disad totals including 'Hero Bonus' (earned XP) 
will _still_ maintain 54 points more for the base form, and equal totals 
for both multi's.  If one form starts buying off disads, the disad+Hero 
Bonus total will go down, but so will the total character cost 
(CHAR+Powers/Skills) be reduced relative to the other forms. 
   In short, there will always be a mathematical route to keeping track 
of experience spent and point totals. 
 
   -Capt. Spith 
 
--  
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is 
long 
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter 
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along 
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong 
                                                       -'Wierd Al' 
 
 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:11:02 -0600 
From: John Stefanski <jstefanski@internetMCI.com> 
Subject: Acronyms 
Reply-to: "jstefanski@iname.com" <jstefanski@iname.com> 
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Does anyone have a good villain organizational name made with an acronym? 
 
JS 
 
============================== 
John Stefanski 
"There can BE only one" 
============================== 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:20:46 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
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At 12:49 PM 10/28/97 -0800, Sam Bell wrote: 
> 
>Some characters need a plot device to survive a nuke, some don't. Pre-Crisis 
>Superman could bounce nukes as easily as he could bounce bullets.  Obviously, 
>this is an unusually high power level, but not impossible to model using  
>Champions mechanics.   
> 
Point well taken.  Kal could take it...  but had he ever?  I mean, had he, 
Pre-Crisis, had to take a nuke on the chin?  And what happened to everything 
around him when the nuke went off? 
 
>Champions has a very nice, robust way of simulating all sorts of 
destruction and 
>mayhem. I'm at a loss to figure why some people seem so reluctant to use it. 
> 
I'm not sure, either.  Um... possibly 'cause it's easier to say, "The nuke 
leveled Tokyo," than to write up the buildings in Tokyo and the surrounding 
area, write up the nuke, target Tokyo from a high altitude (many minuses for 
Range), find where it hits, roll 57 odd dice (or however many... probably 
more, for Tokyo), count the damage and apply it to everything in the city. 
"The buildings from the center to... *this many hexes away are completely 
obliterated... they have no chance.  From that distance to here, the 
stronger ones are left standing... etc, etc, etc."  While this might be neat 
to do as an exercise, and would give a pretty detailed account of the 
destruction, I wouldn't want to do it while my Players were around.  They'd 
all fall asleep on me. 
>It seems like every 3-4 months someone new to the list asks how to simulate a 
>nuke, and there is always at least one person who responds 'you shouldn't'. 
> 
Oh.  I had been a member of the list last semester (and then took a break 
for the summer) and since the beginning of this semester, too.  Guess I 
missed the others.  But then, I already sent a .TXT file on a Hero System 
nuke I got off the net to the original poster, anyway... 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:30:43 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial a 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 95 
 
Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
   (MA - specific discussion snipped) 
 
> While I can agree with your arguments on a theoretical level... it would be 
> really hard for me to go back and change 5 years of my gaming...  the game 
> world is fairly set.  My *Players* are fairly set.  And it doesn't bug us 
> *that* much to have the DEXs and SPDs where they are. 
 
   I found my own solution to the DEX and SPD war, based on the idea 
that 'everything's relative'.  Since it's nigh impossible to convince an 
entire gaming group to start using DEXes of 12 and 14, I change the 
benchmark on the other end.  In my world, an "average" person will have 
a 3 SPD and 15 to 18 DEX. This means that it is not horribly uncommon 
for normal folk to occasionally show up with 18 DEX and 4 SPD. 
   While saving one's character 20 extra points by having EGOists and 
Bricks take human-normal DEX and SPD would be nice, my method means that 
they will still have to deal with 'normals' in their adventures.  This 
also enables Supers to actually receive _help_ from the normals on 
occasion. 
   I ran one game some time ago with superheroes built on 100 base + 50 
disads, limiting DEX and SPD to human levels except for your basic 
'speed-intensive' concepts.  I found I really liked the dynamic of the 
Supers not being able to simple ignore the molasses-slow normals, so 
when I ran a 'regular'-level Supers game, I simple bumped up the average 
for normals to keep the same relative average. 
   I'll bet your players would have fewer problems with faster normals 
than they would with lowering their own stats.  And since it's their own 
points they're unnecessarily spending on DEX and SPD, you might as well 
let them have their own way.... 
 
   -Capt. Spith 
 
--  
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is 
long 
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter 
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along 
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong 
                                                       -'Wierd Al' 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:44:30 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:50 PM 10/28/97 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote: 
>Stainless Steel Rat writes: 
> 
>> Vox did the math: 57D6 killing attack for a Hiroshima-type bomb, just for 
>> the explosion alone.  That is an average of 200 points of Body damage. 
>  
> Sorry, he didn't say 57d6 killing.  Its 57d6 normal (19d6 killing), by  
> the scaling they give in H4.  I've seen a number of characters would 
> wouldn't die to 67 body killing. 
 
Actually, "he" (me) did say killing, but "he" was wrong -- as someone 
already guessed (correctly), I saw the "K" on Fragmentation Grenade and 
assumed it went all the way down.  Whoops. 
 
Here's the corrected numbers for being in the wrong place (Hiroshima) at the 
wrong time (1945): 
1.      7d6 energy RKA 
2.      10d6 Flash vs. Sight, linked to the RKA 
3.      10d6 Dispel vs. All radio/electronic powers [1] 
4.      35d6 Physical EB, delayed 1 Phase [2] 
5.      Dirt thrown up by the blast is irradiated, and becomes fallout. [3] 
 
[1]  I've never had the bad luck to be in a nuclear blast, so I'm not sure 
        of the exact effects of an EMP.  On TV and the silver screen, 
        it's like pulling the plug on all your radios, computers, etc.,  
        and they reboot after the blast.  I've also heard it described 
        as *destroying* these things, so this might better be a Drain. 
 
[2] The blast wave is several seconds behind the thermal pulse -- you get 
        the flash, a pause, then all the buildings get flattened.  C'mon, 
        you've seen the military test footage, right? :]  
 
[3] This probably best worked out as special effects, because the effects 
        are so long-term and vague.  Sticklers can model it as a Transform 
        effect with active points equal to the blast wave. 
 
This is all for Little Boy -- a 12.5 kiloton device.  Today's nuclear 
arsenals, with plutonium bomb triggers for hydrogen fusion warheads, aren't 
really fazed by a 10 MEGATON bomb.  This will have a 9d6 RKA thermal pulse, 
and a 42d6 physical EB blast wave, with other effects appropriately scaled 
upwards.  And remember, all of this stuff has *colossally* huge Areas of Effect. 
 
Then, there's the neutron bomb.  Nix the thermal pulse AND the blast wave, 
and crunch all the points into a big ol' NND Does Body attack (defense: 
being immune to radiation or not an organic life form). 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 06:05:56 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Acronyms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:11 AM 10/28/97 -0600, John Stefanski wrote: 
>Does anyone have a good villain organizational name made with an acronym? 
 
   If you don't mind one that's been published (in a fanzine -- HeroZine 
12, to be specific), you could try the Global Alliance for the Domination 
of the Governments of Earth via Technology (GADGET). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 06:21:21 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Non-Stereotypical Minority Supers 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:14 PM 10/27/97 -0500, Rick Ryker wrote: 
>> >Germans called themselves Allemagne (sp) which meant "All the People" 
>>  
>>    Does that mean that Hitler proved Lincoln wrong by fooling All the 
>> People all of the time? 
>>    (Sorry; arguably bad taste there.  I just couldn't resist the pun.) 
>>  
>Ouch. 
> 
>Actually, many Germans were not fooled by Hitler. 
>They also figured he'd just go away, eventually. 
 
   Oh yeah, I know that.  In fact, both my picture of it and yours are 
gross oversimplifications of what actually was going on. 
   I just couldn't think of anyone else to use for that horrible pun. 
 
>(After all.  Many european countries have endured bad monarchs. 
>And that's all a military dictator really is. 
>And that's how many monarchies got started.) 
 
   Hmmmm... anyone want to start a propaganda war against Joseph Otanga? 
   Any ideas for such a scenario? 
   (Just to bring this back to something Champions related.) 
 
>Unfortunately, he took many, many people with him before he went. 
 
   Yep, and far too many based on their religious belief. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 06:27:48 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: UAO NND 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:48 PM 10/27/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
> 
>BG>    What I'm trying to figure out is why you're putting NND on a UAO 
Power. 
>BG> It still just doesn't scan.  (It's for that reason that I changed the 
>BG> topic header here.) 
> 
>Because there is no other advantage that restricts what can be used as a 
>defense in an all or nothing situation. 
 
   It seems like the more I discuss this, the more lost I get. 
   At the top of my list is the fact that, as listed in the BBB, UAO is 
already an all-or-nothing situation that calls for a specific defense. 
   The basis of your argument previously (as I understood it, at least) was 
that being Desolidified is not "reasonably common" for purposes of UAO, so 
you applied NND to the UAO Power you were proposing because being 
Desolidified is "reasonably common" for purposes of NND.  I've been trying 
to figure out the difference between "reasonably common" and "reasonably 
common." 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:36:31 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re:  Re: Re: Re: Re: Black Hole 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 97 
 
 
> >>>The problem is that anything with mass cannot accelerate past "c". 
> >>Anything can move slower than c; hypothetically things can travel faster 
> >than c.  But crossing c is impossible so long as there is mass. 
> 
> I switch my VPP to FTL. I escape. End of story. 
 
	As the tidal forces pull you into many (very long and very thin) 
pieces. 
 
> See my earlier comment on telepathic "realism". 
 
	uh huh, your point? 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Subject: Re: Acronyms 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 97 09:54:41 -0500 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 98 
 
>Does anyone have a good villain organizational name made with an acronym? 
 
Some of these are tongue-in-cheek, some not: 
 
CHESS     :    Community of Heinous & Evil Sentient Systems 
               (A group of android/computers who wish to take over the  
world - 
               Members are modeled after chess pieces) 
DARK      :    Demonic Association of Raiding and Killing 
               (Mercenary Sorcerors) 
DOOM      :    Dominicus Ordanicus Organizatia Minionus 
               (Really Bad Fake Latin, supposedly means "The Organized  
               Minions of 'Him Who is Ordained to Rule in Dominion over  
All'") 
STAR      :    Subversive Terrorists Against Reality 
               (A group who uses terrorist methods to bring  
other-dimensional 
                entities (demons) to earth) 
BLADE     :    Bionic Legion Against Destructive Entropy 
               (A cyborg group that tries to force their idea of order  
upon  
               the world) 
 
Other acronyms: 
 
APE suit  :    Armor Powered Enhancement suit 
               (like Turtle Armor, but better.) 
BEAR      :    Battle Enabled Armored Robot 
               (Robotic Killing Machine, from the same company that makes  
the 
               APE suit) 
 
                                         |  David A. Fair 
        Think Different                  |  SDS International 
                                         |  dfair@sdslink.com 
 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:07:20 -0600 
From: Alex Rojas <rojasa@uthscsa.edu> 
Subject: Re: Acronyms 
X-Sender: rojasa@arwen.uthscsa.edu 
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X-UID: 100 
 
>Does anyone have a good villain organizational name made with an acronym? 
> 
>John Stefanski 
 
 
BoGUS     Bad Guys of the United States 
 
Way back when we first found Champions, our group spent a couple of days 
converting our V&V characters.  I was (apparently) the only one not 
concerned with making the points balance because I was just putting Hunted 
by Super Group  30 pts.  Complaints started, and someone said "What kind of 
Bogus disadvantage is that?"  So of course it turned into Bogus Hunted  30 
pts.  Which then turned to Hunted by BoGUS. 
 
Basically, anytime anyone had a new character idea, he would show up in 
BoGUS first to round of the rough edges.  The better ones would turn out as 
characters later down the road. 
 
 
Alex 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:49:26 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 2 
 
At 06:40 PM 10/28/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>VL> Here's the corrected numbers for being in the wrong place (Hiroshima) 
>VL> at the wrong time (1945): 
>VL> 1.      7d6 energy RKA 
>VL> 2.      10d6 Flash vs. Sight, linked to the RKA 
>VL> 3.      10d6 Dispel vs. All radio/electronic powers [1] 
>VL> 4.      35d6 Physical EB, delayed 1 Phase [2] 
>VL> 5.      Dirt thrown up by the blast is irradiated, and becomes fallout. [3] 
> 
>You know, I have seen this writeup before somewhere... although part of the 
>"Flash" should probably be written up as a Transformation attack. 
> 
I don't know where I got it, or who wrote it, but I pulled a .TXT file off 
of the net last year.  It's 24K and it's a writeup and description of a 
nuclear device...  it totalled over 7000 Active, 1000 Real.  If anyone 
wants, I can send it to them, but will not spam the list for the benifit of 
the few.  E-mail me personally if you want it... 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:58:33 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Crotchety Mammal of WI 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Alone at Midnight wrote: 
>	'The Badger' - yet another 80's hero.  Recently, his crimson/ 
>blue crosseyed kisser has been picked up by Image comics in a nifty 
>b/w format. 
>	I have an impressive Badger collection, I must say, dating from 
>way, way, way back when (my pre RPG years). 
I got one of the current b+w's but it wasn't quite the same as the old 
stuff...  I got 3 issues (missed the 4th!  Aarrghh!) of the Shattered Mirror 
series, and got that other 2 issue series (color) when it was out.  When I 
have the spare money, I'm picking up back issues of the First series, for 
just a little more than it costs me to get a *new* comic... 
>	Statistics for the Badger exist for V&V, nestled seductively 
>in the pages of Gateways # 11, November 1988. 
If someone around here could get ahold of them (not me), I know some guys 
have V&V->Hero conversions around... 
>	Some of the Badger's hsitry is revealed in the first twenty or so 
>comics, but it alluded to a darker, more mysterious past (his "true" origin 
>is floating somewhere in a limited series or graphic novel... they mention 
>the 'mysterious past' mojo in the Image comics release #1). 
I had also been fairly certain that they had mentioned the inadvertant 
training by his VC captors, his tunnel-ratting, his abusive step-father 
Larry, and the visitation from the giant badger (Myrtle?  was that its name) 
in the main series as well... Shattered Mirrors was just a retelling, 
basically... 
>	If you can also conjure up stats for Ham, the Weather Wizard, 
>I'd be interested in seeing them. 
ICK!  Man, what a nasty damage shield on that bozo!!!  First or second issue 
of the First series, street thug cuts him with a knife... Ham's okay, the 
thug is cut himself...  Not to mention all the weather control (difficult to 
do in Champs, anyway) with some Limitations for "Requires sacrifice"... (not 
usually human, he doesn't want to upset the authorities *that* much, and not 
necessarily animal, either; he cut down that ancient oak tree to make the 
surfboard to surf and control a tsunami, for instance). 
>Uf DA! 
  Woof! 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:06:03 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: The Badger 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Status:  
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X-UID: 4 
 
That nut, Alone at Midnight wrote: 
>	The Badger (aka Norman Sykes) 
I've forgotten how to spell his last name, apparently... ah, well. 
>	A 5' 10" lunatic martial artist with Multiple Personality 
>Syndrome who lives in Wisconsin.  When he gets upset, his eyes go 
>in different directions.  Aside from knowing many esoteric 
>martial arts styles (and some not so esoteric martial arts styles) 
>he can literally speak with animals (not telepathic or empathic... 
>he is 'on their level' so to speak). 
Carp to carp walleting!!!  BWAAHH-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!!!!! 
But he doesn't know Jabberwocky (Riley: Some say it's my jabber, some say 
it's my walk.) 
>	The Badger was released by Capital Comics (#1-5), then First 
>Comics (oops, heh... #5-??), and Dark Horse (??), where his  
>True, Actual History was printed in the four-part 
>Badger: Shattered Mirror series. 
As I said before, this was more a retelling and rehashing of what had gone 
before... 
>	He has eight seperate multiple personalities... 
Let's see.... Norbert, the base personality...  The Badger, a Super-Hero 
Badass.....  Emily, an 8 year old girl...  um, that (French?) Bastard, 
Pierre.....  Um, well, the gay guy, what was his name?....  the dog, can't 
remember his name, either.....  and...  was there a free slave in there or 
am I *completely* off base?  That's all I can do here... my Badger comics 
are at home. 
>	...and he's nuts. 
Yeah, well...  YOU BROKE THE SHIRT MAN!  YOU BROKE THE SHIRT!!!! 
Or how about how he can discard and change his Psych Lims at the drop of the 
hat... 
"The Badger doesn't kill, he maims..."  (First couple of issues) 
"Badger you just killed that man."  "Yeah, so?"  "You always insisted you 
never killed..."  "You got me confused with someone else, Yak."   (couple 
issues later... I know it's not a direct quote, but it's close) 
 
Good luck with him... the list can't even really agree on how to do MPD... 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:28:44 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Presence Attacks/Defense 
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org" 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Greetings, 
	Is it possible to purchase additional 'dice' for a PRE attack, 
much like a HA? 
	Can you purchase defenses against PRE attacks (i.e. Armor vs. 
Presence Attacks/Presence Attacks Defense, Normal & Resistant Damage 
Reduction against Presence Attacks, etc.)? 
	...and how does COM effect presence attacks? 
	What about Advantages/Limitations?  Could you apply them to 
said Attacks/Defenses?  To PRE?  To both?  What if you could apply them 
to both... What would not having the Adv/Lim on one or the other do 
to your Presence and PRE based attacks? 
				"I'm one Sexy, Bad-Arse Mother F@(%ER!" 
						Jason Sullivan 
 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:33:08 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Adjustment vs. END Reserves 
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org" 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
	When you target an END Reserve to Drain/Transfer are you affecting 
the END and REC seperately or collectively?  Can you choose to affect 
them as a whole or one at a time? 
				Slurpie the Super-Sapper, 
						Jason Sullivan 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: UAO NND 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 28 Oct 1997 12:38:51 -0500 
Lines: 26 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
BG>    It seems like the more I discuss this, the more lost I get. 
BG>    At the top of my list is the fact that, as listed in the BBB, UAO is 
BG> already an all-or-nothing situation that calls for a specific defense. 
 
The intent was to make the defense less reasonably common than UAO alone 
would require. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
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=GUmz 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Re: Presence Attacks/Defense 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:55:35 -0500 (EST) 
Organization: VTSFFC 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> 	Is it possible to purchase additional 'dice' for a PRE attack, 
> much like a HA? 
 
Well, I usually see that bought as "PRE, Offensive Only", usually 
a -1 or a -1/2 limitation, depending on interpretation.  Drift towards 
the -1 side if that means you can only make actual presence attacks 
with it, and the lesser limitation if it also helps with "offensive" 
use of PRE-based skills. 
 
> 	Can you purchase defenses against PRE attacks (i.e. Armor vs. 
> Presence Attacks/Presence Attacks Defense, Normal & Resistant Damage 
> Reduction against Presence Attacks, etc.)? 
 
I generally buy "Presecnce defense" as simply PRE with a -1 "Only to 
resist PRE attacks." 
 
> 	...and how does COM effect presence attacks? 
 
  By default, it dosen't.  If it's "appropriate", it can be one of 
the factors from the PRE attack table.  Say, if you're making a  
PRE attack to terrify a crowd, then a really ugly character could 
use their low (or negative) COM as an additional "Demonstration of 
Power" or perhaps "Appropriate setting" to get more dice.  A  
patriotic super trying to inspire troops could probably use  
a high COM to be more encouraging in the "looks like he stepped off 
a recruitment poster" sense, again using the COM as a "demo of 
power".  The same mega-handsome super will not get any bonus from 
COM if, say, he's trying to intimidate thugs later. 
 
 
> 	What about Advantages/Limitations?  Could you apply them to 
 
  Haven't seen that done much.  I suppose something like "Presence, 
area effect" could be used for somebody who is so inspiring that 
everyone around them feels more courageous, but that is generally 
better represented by simply making positive PRE "attacks" on 
your own side. 
  I've seen illusionists and shapeshifters with the ability to  
alter their PRE for when they shift into something more 
impressive-looking.  It usually makes sense for people with Growth 
to buy more PRE to represent how impressive they are when big. 
Etc.  WHich usually translates to the PRE having the same limitations 
as the Growth, if any. 
 
                                    Daniel Pawtowski 
 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:02:20 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Thermonecular Devices 
X-VMS-To: IN%"Champ-l@omg.org" 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Salutations, 
	Anyone care to place statstics on various types of bombs... 
Specifically, different types of thermonukes, and their after effects. 
	 
						Think Big, 
						  Jason Sullivan 
 
X-Sender: scm@mail.aci.net 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:25:52 -0800 
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net> 
Subject: Re: Presence Attacks/Defense 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:28 PM 10/28/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>Greetings, 
>	Is it possible to purchase additional 'dice' for a PRE attack, 
>much like a HA? 
>	Can you purchase defenses against PRE attacks (i.e. Armor vs. 
>Presence Attacks/Presence Attacks Defense, Normal & Resistant Damage 
>Reduction against Presence Attacks, etc.)? 
 
The way we handle extra PRE for attacks or defenses is to just buy it 
outright, and if it's only for attacks, it would get a -1/4 limitation 
(doesn't help defend against PRE attacks) and if it's only for defense, it 
would get a similar limitation of only to defend against PRE attacks. Maybe 
it's -1/2, but it's been a while since I've seen it come up in a PC. -1/4 
just sounds better to me off the top of my head.  
 
>	...and how does COM effect presence attacks? 
 
I can't think of a time when I let COM affect a PRE attack in one of my 
games, but I suppose there could be particular situations where it might 
apply.  I'm not sure I want to think about that too hard, but you never 
know. <g>  I suppose a really high COM might help things, depending, but 
just being "cute" isn't going to help you much at all (more like something 
you have to overcome to get people to take you seriously.)  It would 
seriously depend on the situation and what the PRE attack was trying to 
accomplish, and of course gender plays into it a lot.    
 
 
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre 
www.mactyre.net 
 
Your children will see the stars. 
--Robert A. Heinlein 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 28 Oct 1997 13:45:26 -0500 
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>>>>> "AAM" == ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> writes: 
 
AAM> Salutations, 
AAM> 	Anyone care to place statstics on various types of bombs... 
AAM> Specifically, different types of thermonukes, and their after effects. 
 
Seriously... read a book.  Strategic thermonuclear weapons are a plot 
device. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
X-Sender: scm@mail.aci.net 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 11:05:07 -0800 
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net> 
Subject: Re: Presence Attacks/Defense 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I lied!  I went and looked, and realized it's a -1/2 in my games.  So much 
for long term memory. =)  
 
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre 
www.mactyre.net 
 
Your children will see the stars. 
--Robert A. Heinlein 
 
From: "VANSICKLE, James" <jvansickle@shl.com> 
Subject: RE: Thermonecular Devices 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:26:48 -0600 
Encoding: 37 TEXT 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I think I saw one Champions book that wrote up the stats for them.  Even 
the toughest brick would have trouble surviving such a blast. 
 
>---------- 
>From: 	Stainless Steel Rat[SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net] 
>Sent: 	Tuesday, October 28, 1997 1:25 PM 
>To: 	champ-l@omg.org 
>Subject: 	Re: Thermonecular Devices 
> 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "AAM" == ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> writes: 
> 
>AAM> Salutations, 
>AAM> 	Anyone care to place statstics on various types of bombs... 
>AAM> Specifically, different types of thermonukes, and their after effects. 
> 
>Seriously... read a book.  Strategic thermonuclear weapons are a plot 
>device. 
> 
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>=GXxq 
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
> 
>--  
>Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
>PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
>                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
> 
> 
 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 11:48:18 -0800 
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell) 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
-> From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net Tue Oct 28 10:50:13 1997 
->  
-> >>>>> "AAM" == ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> writes: 
->  
-> AAM> Salutations, 
-> AAM> 	Anyone care to place statstics on various types of bombs... 
-> AAM> Specifically, different types of thermonukes, and their after effects. 
->  
-> Seriously... read a book.  Strategic thermonuclear weapons are a plot 
-> device. 
->  
 
Seriously... read some comic books. There are several heroes who have survived 
nukes. Simulating nukes should not be outside the scope of superhero gaming. 
 
								-Sam 
 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 97 15:07:03 -0500 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 10/28/97 5:25 AM, Vox Ludator! (ludator@mail.softfarm.com) Said: 
 
>Therefore a 12.5 kiloton thermonuclear device is worth 57d6K.  Add +2d6 
>every time you double the size of the bomb.  Add "Explosive" advantage (and 
>probably Area Effect: Radius, to create a killzone with a depleting fringe), 
>shake well, serve with radiation suits.  "Nice" GMs (as if there was 
>anything nice about a GM who'd dump 171 DC attacks on you, heh, heh) can 
>split this into two attacks, one vs. PD to represent the blast wave, and one 
>vs. ED to represent the thermal pulse.  A thermonuclear explosion gets 2 DC 
>thermal pulse for every 3 DC of blast wave (so for little boy, figure 34d6 
>physical and 23d6-1 energy). 
> 
But what about the flash vs. sight and radiation nnd (continuous,  
uncontrolled), maybe even a flash vs. hearing. And something to reflect  
the fact that the ground just shifted about 2-5 feet, maybe a change  
environment? 
All that stuff should be linked, and AOE:Radius (same size as the blast  
radius) 
 
>Some might think that HERO's damage curve is too steep (that x2 should equal 
>+1 DC, as it does for STR damage), in which case this would be converted 
>down to 14d6-1 KA -- still enough to instantly incinerate anyone within its 
>full effect even if they have tank-level armor. 
> 
No need, I think a minimum of 170 DC's is ok for a thermonuclear device.  
Maybe more. 
 
>As far as after-effects, you'd want to link a big Drain vs. electronic 
>devices (EMP) and a Transform (topsoil to fallout) with the same areas of 
>effect (roughly). 
 
 
                                         |  David A. Fair 
        Think Different                  |  SDS International 
                                         |  dfair@sdslink.com 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Date: 28 Oct 1997 15:43:27 -0500 
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>>>>> "SB" == Sam Bell <Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM> writes: 
 
SB> Seriously... read some comic books. There are several heroes who have 
SB> survived nukes. Simulating nukes should not be outside the scope of 
SB> superhero gaming. 
 
Vox did the math: 57D6 killing attack for a Hiroshima-type bomb, just for 
the explosion alone.  That is an average of 200 points of Body damage. 
 
How many characters have you seen with 200-odd points of resistant defenses? 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:49:04 -0800 
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell) 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII 
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-> From jdriscol@vt.edu Tue Oct 28 11:59:46 1997 
-> > 
-> >Seriously... read some comic books. There are several heroes who have survived 
-> >nukes. Simulating nukes should not be outside the scope of superhero gaming. 
-> > 
-> But were those characters previously shown as being able to survive 
-> something like that?  I think Firestorm may have been hit w/ a nuke... but I 
-> don't think he was able to survive it.  It became a plot device, and I think 
-> that's when his character changed slightly, isn't it? 
-> I don't think Rat meant a plot device solely in that "your character can't 
-> survive it, so you'd better stop it from going off."  It may very well be 
-> the character *could* survive it... just how would be the plot device... 
-> Maybe it would be a "radiation accident" in the extremest sense. 
->  
 
Some characters need a plot device to survive a nuke, some don't. Pre-Crisis 
Superman could bounce nukes as easily as he could bounce bullets.  Obviously, 
this is an unusually high power level, but not impossible to model using  
Champions mechanics.   
 
Champions has a very nice, robust way of simulating all sorts of destruction and 
mayhem. I'm at a loss to figure why some people seem so reluctant to use it. 
 
It seems like every 3-4 months someone new to the list asks how to simulate a 
nuke, and there is always at least one person who responds 'you shouldn't'. 
 
									-Sam 
 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:50:11 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat writes: 
 
> Vox did the math: 57D6 killing attack for a Hiroshima-type bomb, just for 
> the explosion alone.  That is an average of 200 points of Body damage. 
  
Sorry, he didn't say 57d6 killing.  Its 57d6 normal (19d6 killing), by the 
scaling they give in H4.  I've seen a number of characters would wouldn't die 
to 67 body killing. 
 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:02:01 -0800 
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell) 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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-> From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net Tue Oct 28 12:47:21 1997 
->  
-> >>>>> "SB" == Sam Bell <Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM> writes: 
->  
-> SB> Seriously... read some comic books. There are several heroes who have 
-> SB> survived nukes. Simulating nukes should not be outside the scope of 
-> SB> superhero gaming. 
->  
-> Vox did the math: 57D6 killing attack for a Hiroshima-type bomb, just for 
-> the explosion alone.  That is an average of 200 points of Body damage. 
->  
-> How many characters have you seen with 200-odd points of resistant defenses? 
->  
 
 
Vox did the math, but he read page 203 of the softcover wrong. While the first 
explosion (frag grenade) is killing damage, the rest are normal. Thus 2x mass 
of explosive is equivalent to +2d6 NORMAL damage, not killing.  Also, the base 
damage for 1 stick of dynamite is 5d6 normal, not killing, so little boy is 
doing 57 normal dice, or 19d6 killing. 
 
(Actually, I've seen more than a few characters that could survive a 57d6 killing 
attack, but that's a different thread....) 
 
								-Sam 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:05:38 -0800 
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On Tuesday, October 28, 1997 10:50 AM, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
<snip> 
>I know they did up nukes in one of the HERO System Almanacs, but I 
don't own 
>'em.  Lessee ... some quick math here: 
 
Good job, with but one flaw. Dynamite does normal damage, not killing, 
at least in my edition of the BBB. 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes: 
 
AJ> Stainless Steel Rat writes: 
>> Vox did the math: 57D6 killing attack for a Hiroshima-type bomb, just for 
>> the explosion alone.  That is an average of 200 points of Body damage. 
  
AJ> Sorry, he didn't say 57d6 killing. 
 
Sorry, yes, he did: 
 
Vox> Therefore a 12.5 kiloton thermonuclear device is worth 57d6K. 
 
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Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 97 16:27:04 -0500 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
cc: <champ-l@omg.org> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 10/28/97 3:50 PM, Anthony Jackson (ajackson@iii.com) Said: 
 
>> Vox did the math: 57D6 killing attack for a Hiroshima-type bomb, just for 
>> the explosion alone.  That is an average of 200 points of Body damage. 
>  
>Sorry, he didn't say 57d6 killing.  Its 57d6 normal (19d6 killing), by the 
>scaling they give in H4.  I've seen a number of characters would wouldn't die 
>to 67 body killing. 
 
You might want to read that again: 
 
>1.      1 stick dynamite = 1/2 lb. 
>2.      Dynamite ~= 80% explosive force of TNT. 
>3.      Little Boy (aka Hiroshima) = 12.5 kilotons TNT. 
>4.      Therefore, LB =   62,500,000 sticks of dynamite. 
>5.      p. 203 indicates that x2 dynamite sticks = +2d6K. 
>6.      62,500,000 is close to 26 "x2s". 
>7.      That's 52d6, PLUS the original 5d6 for 1 stick of dynamite. 
> 
>Therefore a 12.5 kiloton thermonuclear device is worth 57d6K 
 
That is killing damage. Average of 200 body at the center if you use Expl. 
 
 
                                         |  David A. Fair 
        Think Different                  |  SDS International 
                                         |  dfair@sdslink.com 
 
Reply-To: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
From: "\"Lisa Hartjes\" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
        \"Women In Gaming ListServ\" <wig@dedaana.otd.com&> 
        \"Alex Rojas\" <rojasa@uthscsa.edu&> 
        \"Andrew Cooper\" <aecooper@multipro.com&> \"Shanna\" <altaira@escape.com&> 
        \"David Ellis, 
        "Ne, 
        ale.Davidson" <nealed@erols.com&> 
        "Michelle.Knight" <mlknight@mindspring.com&> 
        "Mia.Karen.Sherman" <seraph@wam.umd.edu&> 
        "Matt.Korth" <korthmat@pilot.msu.edu&> 
        "Kenneth.W.Crist.Jr. 
Subject: Change of Email address 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:50:51 -0500 
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X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 29 
 
I wish to apologise for anyone who gets duplicates of this message. 
 
My email address has changed.  It is now beren@unforgettable.com .   
 
 
 
Lisa Hartjes 
beren@unforgettable.com 
Home:  http://www.ionsys.com/~psyche 
"What do you mean, don't press the red button......." 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Date: 28 Oct 1997 17:23:45 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "SB" == Sam Bell <Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM> writes: 
 
SB> Champions has a very nice, robust way of simulating all sorts of 
SB> destruction and mayhem. I'm at a loss to figure why some people seem so 
SB> reluctant to use it. 
 
Because certain things are well beyond the scope of the "average" Champions 
campaign.  Now, maybe Superman can survive a nuclear blast, and maybe Locke 
can survive in the heart of a star, but these are *NOT* 250-point 
characters with a bit of experience.  You go tossing nukes around in a game 
at that scale, you will end up with a lot of dead characters.  Thus, don't 
do it. 
 
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
MMDF-Warning:  Parse error in original version of preceding line at post.mail.demon.net 
Subject: Re: Setting a power level and making sure the PC is 3D 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:28:34 -0000 
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I've been doing this for a long time. 
 
Recently I have been going a step furhter since I started playing with a new 
group. They get to pick an occupation, hobby, and some physical and emotion 
traits from a set list. Each item on the list has a value in points. They 
have 75 to spend, and some packs have a negative value (e.g. are disads). 
Then they get one of a variety of power packs. At random (I will pause here 
whilst you all gasp). These might seem against the whole idea of hero (e.g. 
playing who you want to play) but then Spiderman did not get to pick  his 
powers either...... 
 
Nowadays I have a whole database of these packs covering skills, 
occupations, powers, personal histories etc. 
 
I can use these for all kinds of things: 
1: Random character creation. Take a base character, give him a personality, 
then give him some powers. TADA! 
 
2: Easy PC creation for players who don't have the rules. As above but they 
are given a list to choose from. 
 
3: NPC. You can never have enough stock cops/medics/bank tellers etc. 
 
Obviously this is no substitute for a real in depth character right up, 
which I do still do for important or recurring characters and for any PC 
that requests it. If a player comes to me with a good 3d conception then I 
will take the time to write it up. Right now they are all just trying to 
figure out how thier powers work! 
 
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: 23 October 1997 07:33 
Subject: Setting a power level and making sure the PC is 3D 
 
 
>Had a intersting conversation on #herochat that made me think to ask 
>this here as well. 
> 
>    So here it is: 
> 
><Arcady> one think I really liked about GURPS Supers was an odd rule it 
>had for character creation 
><Arcady> in GURPS, you have 100 points, or 500 in Supers. 
><Arcady> so to make a Super you first made a 100 point normal PC 
><Crunchy> right.   So make a 100 point character, THEN tack on the 
>powers. 
><Arcady> then you had 400 more points to add powers... 
><Arcady> yeah 
><Arcady> it forces 3d characters 
><Crunchy> That can be done in Champs, too. 
><Arcady> I may try the same thing in Hero 
><Arcady> but 
><Crunchy> the higher power levels you can use a similar rule. 
><Arcady> your PC would then be a 50+50 normal with powers added on...? 
><Arcady> or a 75+75 normal 
><Crunchy> Hmm. 
><Arcady> and how many points for the powers in order to get a BBB power 
>level 
><Crunchy> Well, just like with the points for powers, don't set a hard 
>limit. 
><Arcady> that's where I don't yet have a good answer... 
><Crunchy> Just ask to see the "pre-powered" character. 
><Arcady> maybe I should post this to the hero-l list 
><Crunchy> Might get some good feedback. 
> 
> 
>-- 
>Rook 
>Also known as Arcady on #herochat, #Fuzionchat, #gurps, #V&V, 
>and #SuperHeroChat in DALnet IRC 
> 
>My Champions Webpage is at: 
>http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
> 
>Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
>http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
> 
> 
 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:28:39 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> SB> Seriously... read some comic books. There are several heroes who have 
> SB> survived nukes. Simulating nukes should not be outside the scope of 
> SB> superhero gaming. 
> 
> Vox did the math: 57D6 killing attack for a Hiroshima-type bomb, just for 
> the explosion alone.  That is an average of 200 points of Body damage. 
> 
> How many characters have you seen with 200-odd points of resistant defenses? 
 
 
	Personally?  I'd put two, maybe three up there.  And there are 
some big maybes even there.  Think your majorly cosmic heroes and 
villians.  Pre-crisis Supes, maybe Surfer, maybe Green Lantern. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:28:40 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org, champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
David Fair writes: 
> >Sorry, he didn't say 57d6 killing.  Its 57d6 normal (19d6 killing), by the 
> >scaling they give in H4.  I've seen a number of characters would wouldn't 
> >die to 67 body killing. 
>  
> You might want to read that again: 
 
Woops, sorry.  I made the irrational assumption that his post was correct.  It 
_should_ have read normal dice ;). 
 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:30:01 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
> 
> > Vox did the math: 57D6 killing attack for a Hiroshima-type bomb, just for 
> > the explosion alone.  That is an average of 200 points of Body damage. 
> 
> Sorry, he didn't say 57d6 killing.  Its 57d6 normal (19d6 killing), by the 
> scaling they give in H4.  I've seen a number of characters would wouldn't die 
> to 67 body killing. 
 
 
	Look again.  It was 57d6 killing, or 171d normal. 
 
 
			-Tim gilberg 
 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
MMDF-Warning:  Parse error in original version of preceding line at post.mail.demon.net 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists.... 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:42:11 -0000 
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-----Original Message----- 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: 26 October 1997 08:54 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists.... 
 
 
>John and Ron Prins wrote: 
> 
>> >>Solution? Make all 'normal' (non-killing, non-NND) martial arts 
maneuvers 
>> >>have 'Reduced Penetration'. So Joe MA with 20 STR could do a straight 
4D6 
>> >>punch, or haul out his Offensive Strike and do 8D6 Reduced Penetration. 
>> >>Little change in effectiveness against low-defense humans, makes 
MA-vs.-MA 
>> >>combat last longer (as it should), and renders MAs less effective vs. 
Bricks 
>> >>- as it should be. Also keeps Martial Artists from punching through 
brick 
>> >>walls on a regular basis (buy the board-busting trick as an HA if you 
want 
>> >it). 
>> > 
>> >   To be perfectly honest, while I see where you're coming from on this, 
I 
>> >really don't like it.  For one thing, what's to balance the brick 
against 
>> >the Martial Artist in this case?  He can still pretty easily clean the 
MA's 
>> >clock with one punch, once he finally connects. 
>> 
>> So? That's why MAs take NNDs, throws, and high mobility. It takes guile, 
not 
>> power, for a MA to beat a brick. Or at least it should. I could say the 
same 
>> thing of the MA vs. a flying energy projector. How is that balanced? The 
MA 
>> can't get an attack in. What happens when Hulk meets Daredevil? DD sure 
>> doesn't knock out the Hulkster, that's for sure. 
>> 
 
 
In many martial arts, it is not how hard you hit... it is how you hit. 
A highly trained martial artist would be fully aware of where the nerve 
centres in the body of a human being were, and where a blow could be placed 
in order to incapacitate/kill. 
In this scenario I see no reason why a MA should not be able to take down a 
brick. 
 
As for the problem of punching through walls/doors etc. In certain scenarios 
these guys do do this (how many times have we seen doors crumble before a 
mighty kick). However, in the case of the holding cell I might be tempted to 
use the MA special effect against him. For instance, if the MA was a 
dirty-infighter his special effect for his OffStrike might be a headbutt. 
Personally I would be tempted to rule that this would be ineffective against 
something that did not have a nose.... (unless you are Mean Machine Angel). 
 
TTFN 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 28 Oct 1997 18:40:52 -0500 
Lines: 42 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes: 
 
VL> Here's the corrected numbers for being in the wrong place (Hiroshima) 
VL> at the wrong time (1945): 
VL> 1.      7d6 energy RKA 
VL> 2.      10d6 Flash vs. Sight, linked to the RKA 
VL> 3.      10d6 Dispel vs. All radio/electronic powers [1] 
VL> 4.      35d6 Physical EB, delayed 1 Phase [2] 
VL> 5.      Dirt thrown up by the blast is irradiated, and becomes fallout. [3] 
 
You know, I have seen this writeup before somewhere... although part of the 
"Flash" should probably be written up as a Transformation attack. 
 
[1]"Had this been an actual emergency the sound you have just heard would 
have been our transmitter melting down in a nuclear fireball." 
 
[...] 
 
VL> This is all for Little Boy -- a 12.5 kiloton device.  Today's nuclear 
VL> arsenals, with plutonium bomb triggers for hydrogen fusion warheads, 
VL> aren't really fazed by a 10 MEGATON bomb. 
 
If not more... although beyond 10 Megaton yeild you get better results with 
a MIRV or other scattering warhead. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:46:51 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Crotchety Mammal of WI 
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org" 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Greetings, 
	Again, I test the archival and intellectual limits of 
this collective of wonderous minds!  So, without further delay... 
	'The Badger' - yet another 80's hero.  Recently, his crimson/ 
blue crosseyed kisser has been picked up by Image comics in a nifty 
b/w format. 
	I have an impressive Badger collection, I must say, dating from 
way, way, way back when (my pre RPG years). 
	Statistics for the Badger exist for V&V, nestled seductively 
in the pages of Gateways # 11, November 1988. 
	Some of the Badger's hsitry is revealed in the first twenty or so 
comics, but it alluded to a darker, more mysterious past (his "true" origin 
is floating somewhere in a limited series or graphic novel... they mention 
the 'mysterious past' mojo in the Image comics release #1). 
	If you can also conjure up stats for Ham, the Weather Wizard, 
I'd be interested in seeing them. 
						Uf DA! 
						 Jason Sullivan 
 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 19:08:08 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Re: The Badger 
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Hi, 
	Sorry about not putting this in my last post... 
	The Badger (aka Norman Sykes) 
	A 5' 10" lunatic martial artist with Multiple Personality 
Syndrome who lives in Wisconsin.  When he gets upset, his eyes go 
in different directions.  Aside from knowing many esoteric 
martial arts styles (and some not so esoteric martial arts styles) 
he can literally speak with animals (not telepathic or empathic... 
he is 'on their level' so to speak). 
	The Badger was released by Capital Comics (#1-5), then First 
Comics (oops, heh... #5-??), and Dark Horse (??), where his  
True, Actual History was printed in the four-part 
Badger: Shattered Mirror series. 
	He has eight seperate multiple personalities... 
	...and he's nuts. 
	 
 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 20:47:17 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Minnie May Hopkins 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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A *long* while ago I posted the two main cast members of _Riding Bean_ and 
_Gunsmith Cats_.  Here's one I forgot: 
 
MAY "MINNIE MAY" HOPKINS 
 
Designers Notes: 
May Hopkins (Minnie May to her friends - her nickname comes from being 
called "as cute a Minne Mouse") hails from the _Gunsmith Cats_ manga, 
where she acts as Rally Vincent's business partner and bomb expert.  A 
runaway at the age of 13, Minnie orginally made her way as a petty thief, 
disguising herself as a boy named Mel.  At one point she was caught trying 
to steal the car radio of one Ken Takizawa (aka Ken Tucky), a 29 year-old 
Japanese-American.  Falling for May's 'Mel' act, Ken took her in and 
taught her his personal area of expertise: explosives. 
 
Eventually, Minnie dropped her 'Mel' act, having discovered Ken's Lolita 
Complex (and his videotape collection).  They became lovers in very short 
order.  Unfortunately, Ken had to disappear when enemies came after him, 
and May was forced to flee from the Mafia.  She hid in a very high-class 
Chinatown brothel called "The House of the Purple Cat" or in the Dark 
Horse version: "The House of the Purple Pussy".  It turns out that she was 
one of the top prostitutes at this exclusive house, serving as an 
instructor to women twice her age.  It should also be pointed out that 
Minnie seems to be quite the nymphomaniac...  Minnie May quit the "Purple 
Cat" about a year and a half before the beginning of _Gunsmith Cats_.  I 
can only presume she hooked up with Rally soon after. 
 
Description: 
Minnie May is short, standing 4' 6" tops.  Although 17, she looks to be no 
older than 14 (in fact, 12 would be a better age).  She usually dresses in 
typical skirt and blouse outfits, and wears a light jacket over that. 
Naturally, the jacket is stuffed with grenades, primer cord, explosive 
caps, wire cutters and pliers. 
 
Powers Notes: 
Minnie is an explosives expert, taught the ins and outs of demolitions by 
Ken Takizawa.  She is quite capable of building an effective home-made 
bomb out of materials as simple as a blasting fuse and a bottle of pepper. 
She is usually armed with an assortment of explosives (ie. grenades), 
including smoke, HE, fragmentation and 'flash-bangs' as well as primer 
cord, caps and tools.   
 
Disadvantages Notes: 
Minnie May is totally in love with "her Kenny".  She is totally devoted to 
him, and has gone running off to find him at the drop of a hat.  At one 
point her relationship with Ken resulted in a screaming argument between 
her and Rally.  The fact that his mere presence gets Minnie all 'hot and 
bothered' doesn't help either. 
 
Despite (or more likely because of) her small size, Minnie hates being 
treated like a small kid.  She wants to be accepted as a responsible 
adult, although her occasional bouts of immaturity (esp regarding Ken) 
haven't helped her cause. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		8		-2 
Dex		16		18 
Con		13		6 
Body		9		-2 
Int		13		3 
Ego		14		8 
Pre		10		0 
Com		14		2 
PD		3		1 
ED		3		0 
Spd		3		4 
Rec		4		0 
End		26		0 
Stun		20		0 
Char Total			38 
Power Total			48 
Total Cost			86 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
2	AK: Chicago 11- 
7	Demolitions 13-  
4	KS: Grenades, Bombs & Explosives 14- 
4	KS: Sex 14- 
4	PS: Prostitute 14- 
2	SC: Explosives 11- 
9	Seduction 14- 
5	Streetwise 12- 
7	Weaponsmith: Explosive Devices (such as homemade bombs) 13-  
3	WF: Pistols, SMGs, Explosive Devices 
 
Disadvantages 
50	Base 
10	DF: Looks to be between 12 and 14 years of age 
15	Psych: Loves Ken Tucky 
10	Psych: Wants to prove herself 
0	(10) Psych: Explosives *freak* 
1	Bonus 
 
(Minne May created by Kenichi Sonoda, character sheet written by Michael 
Surbrook, additional material supplied by Michael House) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:50:16 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Flight in Space 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 86 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    I'm just musing here (so someone with a better knowledge of physics than 
> I may feel free to contradict me -- as though they wouldn't anyway), but I 
> think that the proximity of a large gravitational body could have an effect 
> as well.  After all, in space all movement is relative (and for that 
> matter, on a planet all movement is relative to the planet). 
 
	So very true.  The reason why I posed the original post was to explain  
fairly quickly why I designed a black hole with +200" flight (up close) to  
simulate the effects of gravity.  The same could be done for any body in  
space.  Consider Earth.  On the surface (and out to a fair distance), the  
equivelant of +5" per segment is being applied.  This is the reason for double  
cost to climb. 
 
	But for the most part, and trying to keep it simple, most  
gravitational sources could be ignored until such time as normal flight rules  
can be reapplied. 
 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:09:19 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Flight in Space 
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Vance Scott wrote: 
>  
> > -- What limits normal flight.  A hero has 25" flight with x4 non combat. 
> >  What stops him going faster.  Air friction vs power out from whatever 
> > gives him his flight. 
> > 
> >       In space, there is no air friction to speak of.  Assuming that 
> > the special effects of the flight allow movement in space, everybody has 
> > in effect unlimited non combat multiples.  (This is, of course, ignoring 
> > relativity.)  The only thing that would hold this back would be long term 
> > endurance and consideration for turn modes. 
>  
> The method of propulsion might be a consideration. A reaction drive 
> of some sort would function as you propose, but a telekinetic, or 
> gravtic drive may not. 
 
	Excellent point.  Something I hadn't considered. 
 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:12:55 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
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> > 
> >Some characters need a plot device to survive a nuke, some don't. Pre-Crisis 
> >Superman could bounce nukes as easily as he could bounce bullets.  Obviously, 
> >this is an unusually high power level, but not impossible to model using  
> >Champions mechanics.   
> > 
> Point well taken.  Kal could take it...  but had he ever?  I mean, had he, 
> Pre-Crisis, had to take a nuke on the chin?  And what happened to everything 
> around him when the nuke went off? 
>  
 
I've seen Superman take a nuke in two 'alt world' books.  Frank Miller's 
Dark Knight was one and that nearly killed Superman, he barely survived 
and was in pretty bad shape.  In the more recent 'Kingdom Come' Supes was 
ground zero for a nuke that killed most of the other superpowered beings 
on Earth and didn't seem much hurt at all.  I don't recall how close he 
was to the nuke in Dark Knight, so he might have been closer there. 
 
 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:23:08 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re:  Re:  Funky Powers (the 3rd Generation) 
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In a message dated 10/28/97 5:11:22 AM, jdriscol@vt.edu wrote: 
>>Give the character a total speed of 8 
>>4 regular phases: 3 6 9 12 
>>and 4 phases extra: 2 5 8 11 (only to do hair actions) 
>Do they get a Lim on the additional 4 SPD?  Maybe you could just charge them 
>for a SPD of 6, and then average it out...  or not, because that would only 
>be for a -1 Lim.  Hmmm... 
 
Yes the cost is limited. This is BTW the Hydra thing from the Bestiary. 
 
Medusa (aka Hair-Gal) could have speed 4  (20 points) 
and then 4 more Speed, only to do Hair VPP actions (-1)  cost 20 points also. 
 
We had a martial artist is our campaign with this crock. 
He had speed 6, plus 3 speed only for martial arts actions. 
He could do anything on 2 4 6 8 10 12 phases, 
and on 3 7 11 he could only Strike, Kick, Dodge, Block, etc  
  (no movement, no multipower switches, no skills, no PER rolls, just MA) 
 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:23:29 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
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In a message dated 10/28/97 7:04:11 PM, jdriscol@vt.edu (Jeremiah Driscoll) 
wrote: 
>Point well taken.  Kal could take it...  but had he ever?  I mean, had he, 
>Pre-Crisis, had to take a nuke on the chin?  And what happened to everything 
>around him when the nuke went off? 
 
Yes, in Dark Knight Batman, Superman is near ground zero of a nuke. 
It weakens him, makes him appear to age several dozen years, 
it shrivels his skin, and it stuns him so he plummets several seconds, 
not quite conscious. 
 
He returns to perfect health as soon as he falls out of the radioactive 
cloud. 
The surrounding landscape was totally destroyed. 
His uniform was completely unscathed throughout, 
and he completely recovered in a few minutes himself. 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:42:43 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re:  Re: Presence Attacks/Defense 
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IMC, we do everything that Shelley said, 
but we allow a bonus 1-2 d6 from high COM scores 
depending on possible physical attraction, 
and we also allow use the GAC advantage of Impressiveness 
on certain powers, just stacking the PRE dice way up there... 
 
One NPC, Enforcer, has his PRE bought Armor-Piercing! 
When he talks, people listen. 
-- 
Elliott 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:16:22 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re:  Re: Familiar Creation 
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In a message dated 10/28/97 5:01:27 AM, jdriscol@vt.edu wrote: 
 
>Because it is, of course, Mind Link.  I think you have a point, tho.  Can 
>this just be modeled with an Advantage on a Mental Power? 
 
I agree with your math, and all I was saying 
is that as GM I'd allow the effect like that 
in my campaign.  
-- 
Elliott 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:30:16 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re:  Re: Acronyms 
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In a message dated 10/28/97 1:26:27 PM, ludator@mail.softfarm.com wrote: 
 
>out DEMON in latin, beginning with 
>"Deus Es Mortum" (God Is Dead) .. 
 
Deus Est Morte, Omnes Nox 
 
God is Dead, and All is Night... 
-- 
Elliott 
 
From: boaters@ix.netcom.com 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:37:26 -0500 
Subject: Supression/Darkness question 
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Okay, here is the situation: 
 
The campaign is a fantasy campaign and magic is very widespread.  One of 
the characters is a young warrior who is learning as he is going.  He 
has been the victim of a silence spell one to many times and wishes to 
get a ring to protect himself from it. 
 
The problem is this, the spell is Darkness with as many inches as the 
mage has.  (differs from mage to mage.) 
 
We have come down to one of two powers.  Suppress or Dispel. 
 
Dispel is the one we are currently leaning toward. 
 
The question is this:  I would like to know how you would build the ring 
(IIF) and which power that the list would use.  The end result that I am 
shooting for is the ring built each way so that I can take them to my gm 
and discuss which way he wants me to buy it. 
 
Thanks, 
 
Darin 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:39:45 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
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At 02:28 PM 10/28/97 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote: 
>Woops, sorry.  I made the irrational assumption that his post was correct. 
 
Well, gosh, that's a slap in the face.  Am I incorrect *that* often where 
believing me is "irrational"? :] 
 
But you're (mostly) right -- it should have been Damage Classes, since the 
total damage will later get busted down into a killing portion and a normal 
portion. 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:02:58 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@actonline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: UAO NND 
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Filksinger wrote: 
>  
> On Monday, October 27, 1997 5:58 PM, Rick Ryker wrote: 
>  
> <snip> 
> > 
> >On the other hand, you would be dead well before getting within light 
> >years 
> >of a black hole due to the gravity differential between your head and 
> >your feet. 
>  
> No. 
>  
> A black hole with the mass of the sun has the same gravitational 
> effect at a distance as the sun. If the sun were to be suddenly 
> replaced by a black hole the same mass as the sun, the Earth's orbit 
> wouldn't change at all. 
>  
> A black hole's power comes from approaching it's center of mass too 
> close. If you are the same distance from the gravitational center of a 
> black hole the size of the sun as the radius of the sun, then you only 
> experience the gravity of the sun. However, the black hole is much, 
> much smaller than the sun. As you get closer and closer to its center 
> of mass (far inside the surface of the sun, where the mass overhead 
> would counteract the increase in gravity caused by your approaching 
> the center of gravity), the gravity becomes greater and greater, until 
> it becomes impossible for you to escape, you pass the event horizon, 
> and you disappear forever. 
>  
> A black hole so large it could generate 200g at a distance of light 
> years is so large that the tidal forces are negligible. The smaller 
> the black hole, the greater the tidal forces. Really, _really_, REALLY 
> large black holes have no measurable tidal forces at all. 
>  
> >Imagine X minus one hundred Gs pulling on you feet and X minus two 
> >hundred Gs 
> >pulling on your head.  You would be literally pulled to pieces. 
> >(Waaaayyyy before you get the chance to be squashed.) 
>  
> True, if the black hole is small enough. The smaller the black hole, 
> the greater the difference in force being applied near its surface and 
> the force a few feet away. An Earth mass black hole would rip you 
> apart. A sun mass black hole would rip you apart. A black hole that 
> could exert 200g at distances of light-years wouldn't hurt you by 
> tidal forces at all. 
>  
> You might want to do the math after all. 
>  
> Filksinger 
 
	Lets be kind and assume he was being dramatic. 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 02:13:26 -0500 (EST) 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Re:  Re:  Re: Re: Re: Re: Black Hole 
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In a message dated 10/28/97 9:36:16 AM, trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu wrote: 
>> I switch my VPP to FTL. I escape. End of story. 
>>	As the tidal forces pull you into many (very long and very thin) 
>pieces. 
No, please re-read FTL in the BBB, I'm gone, No Damage. 
I drop Black Hole Dude with my RKA BOECV. I win. 
 
>> See my earlier comment on telepathic "realism". 
>	uh huh, your point? 
Don't hassle players with physics, and please drop this 
overwrought, over thought thread. It is going nowhere and 
proving nothing. 
 
Oh wait a minute. I was wrong. That guy completely changed 
his mind and now wants to run Champions exactly the 
way that first guy runs his game. I guess the thread did a lot 
of good after all. My bad. 
-- 
elliott 
 
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:35:58 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Flight in Space 
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Egyptoid@aol.com wrote: 
>  
> In a message dated 10/27/97 1:46:42 AM, rholding@ActOnline.com.au wrote: 
> >In space, there is no air friction to speak of.  Assuming that 
> >the special effects of the flight allow movement in space, everybody has 
> >in effect unlimited non combat multiples. 
> wrong, unless you bought that as an advantage. 
> What limits flight speed?     the BBB. 
> I paid for 27 inches, I go 27 inches, 
> vacuum or not. 
 
Bull.   
 
Read the section on modifying powers per special effect.  It is perfectly  
appropriate for the GM to state that Fledermaus's wings are useless in  
space.  Whether this is worth a limitation depends on how often the  
situation comes up.  The same limitation would apply to jets (as opposed  
to rockets), to gliding, etc. 
 
Consider a STR 50 character who leaps from an airlock of a space station.  
Are you going to have the character travel 10" and stop?  Are you going  
to charge the character additional END to continue his leap?  I imagine  
that you would make the reasonable ruling, and have the character travel  
(probably at 10" per phase) until he hits something or reaches the end of  
his tether. 
 
Similarly, should Rocket Man be charged END for continuing to move in a  
straight line in space?  Shouldn't he be able to do what is intuitively  
and dramatically required, and fire a short burst then keep drifting? 
 
GMs have an inherent right to prevent absurdities.  Coming up with a set  
of appropriate house rules beforehand is, IMHO, much preferable to just  
winging it. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 03:26:19 -0700 
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net> 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
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Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>  
> At 12:49 PM 10/28/97 -0800, Sam Bell wrote: 
> > 
> >Some characters need a plot device to survive a nuke, some don't. Pre-Crisis 
> >Superman could bounce nukes as easily as he could bounce bullets.  Obviously, 
> >this is an unusually high power level, but not impossible to model using 
> >Champions mechanics. 
> > 
> Point well taken.  Kal could take it...  but had he ever?  I mean, had he, 
> Pre-Crisis, had to take a nuke on the chin?  And what happened to everything 
> around him when the nuke went off? 
 
Not that this will add signifigantly to the discussion at hand, but the 
only time I have seen Kal take a nuke was 'post-crisis' and an alternate 
future at that... in the Dark Knight mini series. It was an airburst so 
we didn't see much of the destruction directly. 
 
-Mhoram 
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 
 two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 02:42:52 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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There have been several attempts here to model a thermonuclear device. 
Technically, it hasn't been a thermonuclear device, as the request was 
for the first atom bomb, which was fission. A thermonuclear device is 
fusion. However, in most respects, there is little difference save for 
size. 
 
In many ways, they suffer from the same problems I have seen in other 
attempts: a nuclear device is extraordinary; it is not a big pile of 
TNT. 
 
If you wish to calculate the damage done by a big pile of TNT, then 
simply totaling the dice works. However, that is not what a nuclear 
bomb is like. The center of a TNT explosion cannot be more than a 
couple of thousand degrees Celsius at the center, probably much less; 
a nuclear weapon is much, much hotter, in the tens of millions, at 
least. 
 
That said, you may be surprised at what I don't do when defining a 
nuclear weapon. 
 
I am only going to do the blast. The biggest reason is that vitually 
everything else required is covered somewhere else around here. While 
I do suggest a Transformation attack as well as Flash (some people are 
close enough to be blinded for life, others for less time), it is the 
blast that I object to most. 
 
 The blast from TNT or dynamite is described as a normal explosion, 
but the blast from a heavy bomb is described as killing. With a 
nuclear weapon, three different blasts are more appropriate than 
either one. 
 
First, we have the fireball. This is a ball of plasma that is 
extremely hot, in the millions of degrees near the center. I'd give it 
a 10d6 RKA (150), Explosion (+1/2), -1DC per 3"(+1/2), x2 Armor 
Piercing (+1), Penetrating (+1/2),   525 Active Points. The fireball 
from the first nuclear weapons was not enormously large, but it was 
too big for simply using the advantage Explosion. 
 
Next, the killing blast. Normally, this would be simply defined as a 
killing explosion. However, I didn't want to do it that way, because 
near the fringes it isn't a killing attack any more; it is more like a 
big wind. Thus, two explosions. First, a 10d6 RKA, Physical (150), 
Explosion (+1/2), -1DC per 8" (+1 1/2), 450 Active Points. This 
affects those nearest the device. It is partly the force of the blast 
and partly the shrapnel created by crushed and partially vaporized 
rock, steel, people, etc. 
 
 
Then, a 56d6 EB, Physical (280) (might as well put that 56d6 in 
somewhere), Explosion (+1/2), -1DC per 16"(+4), Double Knockback 
(+1/4), 1890 Active Points. The Double Knockback is due to the fact 
that it can still blow many things over even after it is so weak as to 
do little damage to people, and due to the fact that nuclear weapons 
have been known to throw things a considerable distance. 
 
Some people are going to object to this treatment of a nuclear weapon. 
They will claim, with some justice, that some characters in their 
campaigns might well survive such a blast. This is true. 
 
At Alamogordo, New Mexico, on that fateful day, a steel sphere 10" in 
diameter was placed next to the device. After the detonation, it was 
found, still intact, a mile away. 
 
If a mere steel sphere can survive such a blast, maybe Mighty Man can, 
too. 
 
(Of course, the NND Radiation may still get him.) 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 11:15:59 GMT 
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk 
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness) 
Subject: Re: Supression/Darkness question 
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At 01:37 AM 29/10/97 -0500, boaters@com.netcom.ix wrote: 
>Okay, here is the situation: 
> 
>The campaign is a fantasy campaign and magic is very widespread.  One of 
>the characters is a young warrior who is learning as he is going.  He 
>has been the victim of a silence spell one to many times and wishes to 
>get a ring to protect himself from it. 
> 
>The problem is this, the spell is Darkness with as many inches as the 
>mage has.  (differs from mage to mage.) 
> 
>We have come down to one of two powers.  Suppress or Dispel. 
> 
>Dispel is the one we are currently leaning toward. 
> 
>The question is this:  I would like to know how you would build the ring 
>(IIF) and which power that the list would use.  The end result that I am 
>shooting for is the ring built each way so that I can take them to my gm 
>and discuss which way he wants me to buy it. 
> 
>Thanks, 
> 
>Darin 
> 
 
Now this is a question to answer your question. Can you suppress a power  
modifier rather than the power directly?? This would simulate the effect  
fairly well. 
 
The variation in radius of the mage would tend to reflect the power of the  
mage in that area, if he was a powerful mage then you might only expect to  
reduce its effect, but if he was a weak mage then you could perhaps shrink  
the core of darkness down to it's minimum level..... 
 
Dunno if it's legal tho' 
 
 
Stephen 
 
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford) 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:39:36 GMT 
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On Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:02:20 -0500 (EST), you wrote: 
 
>Salutations, 
>	Anyone care to place statstics on various types of bombs... 
>Specifically, different types of thermonukes, and their after effects. 
 
The scenario "Atlas Unleashed" has the specs for a "crude atomic 
bomb". They are: 
 
a 200" wide crater, with a glassy bowl 22" wide and 2" deep 
 
a flash that creates a 10d6 killing attack at ground zero and loses 
1d6 for every 123" from the point of explosion. This attack only 
affects exposed areas. 
 
Radiation; everyone without 20 pts of life support or force wall, etc, 
dies within a one mile radius after three days of sickness. Past one 
mile, everyone takes a 4d6 NND killing attack, minus 1/2d6 per half 
mile. 
 
Blinding; anyone one mile away or closer looking at the explosion is 
permanently blinded. At one mile, it's an 8d6 sight destruction 
attack, minus 1/2d6 per half mile. 
 
Blast: a 40d6 normal attack radiates out from ground zero, minus 1d6 
every 40" 
 
Heat: 40d6 normal energy damage, minus 1d6 per 40" travelled. 
 
This is a CRUDE atomic bomb, they point out it's just slamming two 
chunks of plutonium together. Given the crater and damage, probably 
around 10 kilotons (the damage from the 20 kT Hiroshima and Nagasaki 
bombs was worse). 
 
John Lansford 
 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 04:14:59 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial arts 
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Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
   <Whole lotts stuff clipped> 
 
> Well, if I were running a street level campaign, and the Players had bumped 
> their DEX/SPD stats up that high... I might assume they were *just* above 
> average, and make the normals reflect this...  but I like the feel that my 
> PCs are *powerful* and bumping normals up that high *on a regular basis* IMC 
> would kind of ruin that effect for me and my Players... 
 
   <....> 
 
> >   I'll bet your players would have fewer problems with faster normals 
> >than they would with lowering their own stats.  And since it's their own 
> >points they're unnecessarily spending on DEX and SPD, you might as well 
> >let them have their own way.... 
> 
> Um... Maybe one fewer problem...  They wouldn't have to rewrite their 
> characters...  But they would lose the SPD advantage over mere mortals that 
> they have right now.  It's only a slight edge to many of my heroes (who have 
> SPD 4) with a slightly larger edge as you go up...  I have a fairly even 
> split between 4 and 5... just a few guys w/ 6...  and just one guy (a feral) 
> who is running around w/ a 7 SPD (30 DEX).  He'd notice the sudden leap in 
> normal reaction speed the most.  As it is... he killed 2 Ninja, 10 meters 
> apart, in 6 seconds.  (They were, I should point out, 'generic' Ninja... 
> unnamed characters.) 
 
   My solution was intended for GMs who have a problem with players who 
consider a "slow, lumbering mass of Rock" a 4 SPD, 20 DEX.  Both 
lowering PCs' SPD/DEX averages and raising NPCs' SPD/DEX averages are 
intended for games where a GM wants a smaller gulf between 'normals' and 
heroes with no reason to have particularly superhuman speed.  It seems 
that you don't have a problem with this, and are happy with your game's 
balance.  Remember, solutions are only necessary when there is a 
problem. 
   In other words, congratulations on having cooperative and restrained 
players on this point! 
 
   -Capt. Spith 
 
--  
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is 
long 
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter 
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along 
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong 
                                                       -'Wierd Al' 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 05:25:59 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Supression/Darkness question 
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At 01:37 AM 10/29/97 -0500, boaters@ix.netcom.com wrote: 
>Okay, here is the situation: 
> 
>The campaign is a fantasy campaign and magic is very widespread.  One of 
>the characters is a young warrior who is learning as he is going.  He 
>has been the victim of a silence spell one to many times and wishes to 
>get a ring to protect himself from it. 
> 
>The problem is this, the spell is Darkness with as many inches as the 
>mage has.  (differs from mage to mage.) 
> 
>We have come down to one of two powers.  Suppress or Dispel. 
> 
>Dispel is the one we are currently leaning toward. 
> 
>The question is this:  I would like to know how you would build the ring 
>(IIF) and which power that the list would use.  The end result that I am 
>shooting for is the ring built each way so that I can take them to my gm 
>and discuss which way he wants me to buy it. 
 
   I'd build it as Suppress Darkness, 0 END Persistent, IIF, Independent, 
Only vs Hearing (-1).  Always On would be at your option. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:34:42 -0500 (EST) 
Organization: VTSFFC 
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>  
> At Alamogordo, New Mexico, on that fateful day, a steel sphere 10" in 
> diameter was placed next to the device. After the detonation, it was 
> found, still intact, a mile away. 
>  
  Which demonstrates a further complicating factor- aerodynamics.  Had 
that steel sphere been an equivalent-sized flat steel plate and anchored  
down to a couple tons of concerete, then it likely would have fared 
considerably less well.   
  Effectively, the sphere spent most of that mile "Rolling with the  
punch".  Many superhero-type characters could do so as well, if they 
let the blast shove them along rather than trying to Brace against 
it.    I suppose they do have one small advantage:  when taking KB, 
they aren't likely to run into a wall, all the walls have likely been 
knocked down already. :-) 
                                                    Daniel Pawtowski 
 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:29:49 -0200 (EDT) 
From: Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria <gevaerd@laranjeiras.lci.ufrj.br> 
Subject: Martial Arts + HKA 
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    In the HKA description, it says that you cannot add more Damage 
Classes to the HKA by your STR than what the HKA has itself, that is, the 
damage done with HKA + STR cannot be more than 2 * damage of the HKA 
alone. 
    What about using Martials Arts with the HKA, would you use any kind of 
limit like that ? 
 
               []s. 
 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:41:42 -0400 
From: Bruce Crow <BCROW@cnmc.org> 
Subject: Re: Acronym 
Content-Disposition: inline 
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I have used these in the past 
F.R.O.G.G. 
the Fraternity to Rub Out Good Guys 
and 
P.O.R.N. 
Persons Of Radical Nature 
 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:01:24 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Re:  Re:  Re: Re: Re: Re: Black Hole 
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> In a message dated 10/28/97 9:36:16 AM, trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu wrote: 
> >> I switch my VPP to FTL. I escape. End of story. 
> >>	As the tidal forces pull you into many (very long and very thin) 
> >pieces. 
> No, please re-read FTL in the BBB, I'm gone, No Damage. 
> I drop Black Hole Dude with my RKA BOECV. I win. 
 
	Hmmm.  I guess that Mr. "Power constructions with no SFX" could 
win quite easily.  However, at certain times with certain extremes the 
rules really don't perfectly apply.  Even if you have desolid which 
technicall makes you immune to anything but what you choose, I'll probably 
have a Black Hole affect you.  Same with FTL. 
 
	Now, if you're talking about a character with pseudo-black holes 
as his attack form, well there's no real problem.  For balance's sake, 
he'll probably have to be beatable and won't really realistically model 
a black hole -- It's hard to throw around 6000 or so APs. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:12:32 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: STR + HKA 
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	I'm using a sword (1d6 HKA, OAF).  I have a 60 STR.  What dice 
of damage do I have and of what type? 
 
X-Sender: jhebert@texas.net 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:15:36 -0600 
From: Jeff Hebert <jhebert@texas.net> 
Subject: Multi-Form Speed 
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We have a power gamer who is considering a change to a character with 
Multiform. How do you handle such characters when the two (or however many) 
forms have different SPD and DEX characteristics -- specifically, how do 
you handle changes in combat order and which phases they're allowed to go 
on? Any other house rules for handling Multiform characters that you have 
found especially helpful? 
 
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
               Jeff Hebert 
            jhebert@texas.net 
    Visit the home page of The Crusaders! -- 
 http://lonestar.texas.net/~jhebert/crusaders.htm 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Martial Arts + HKA 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Date: 29 Oct 1997 12:45:06 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "RCGdF" == Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria 
>>>>> <gevaerd@laranjeiras.lci.ufrj.br> writes: 
 
RCGdF>     In the HKA description, it says that you cannot add more Damage 
RCGdF> Classes to the HKA by your STR than what the HKA has itself, that 
RCGdF> is, the damage done with HKA + STR cannot be more than 2 * damage of 
RCGdF> the HKA alone. 
 
This is correct. 
 
RCGdF>     What about using Martials Arts with the HKA, would you use any 
RCGdF> kind of limit like that ? 
 
You still have a DC limit of twice the DCs in the base HKA.  It does not 
matter where the extra DCs come from. 
 
So, if you have a 10 Strength (2DC) and an Offensive Strike (+4DC) and a 
1D6 HKA (3DC), you can do a maxium of 2D6 (6DC) with the HKA... and you 
suck the CV modifiers for the Offensive Strike.  The extra DCs from the 
Offfensive Strike are lost. 
 
Do not forget that martial DCs add at 2 normal DCs to one killing DC.  So 
in the example, two of the +4DCs from the Offensive Strike translate into 
1DC killing damage for the HKA, leaving 2 wasted. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Multi-Form Speed 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "JH" == Jeff Hebert <jhebert@texas.net> writes: 
 
JH> We have a power gamer who is considering a change to a character with 
JH> Multiform. How do you handle such characters when the two (or however 
JH> many) forms have different SPD and DEX characteristics 
 
The same way as any other character changing speed in the middle of a turn. 
The BBB has the details.  IIRC, his next Action Phase occours in the next 
segment in which both forms would have an Action Phase. 
 
For example, one form is Speed 2 (6, 12) the other is Speed 5 (3, 5, 8, 10, 
12).  He starts in the slow form.  On segment 6 he changes to his fast 
form.  His next Action Phase is in segment 12 since that is the next 
segment that both forms get an action.  He does *NOT* get an action in 
segments 8 or 10. 
 
The only time one can change speeds without penalty is during the post 
segment 12 recovery. 
 
Dexterity changes take effect immediately, however. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Supression/Darkness question 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 29 Oct 1997 12:58:54 -0500 
Lines: 31 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 33 
 
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>>>>> "b" == boaters <boaters@ix.netcom.com> writes: 
 
b> We have come down to one of two powers.  Suppress or Dispel. 
b> Dispel is the one we are currently leaning toward. 
 
Dspell is the way to go.  It is the only power that can be used offensively 
in a defensive capacity.  To wit, when a silence spell is cast, the owner 
of the ring may immediately, as a defensive action, attempt to dispell the 
incoming attack.  Suppress can only be used after an incoming attack has 
had its effect. 
 
You probably want to play around with ways of "automating" this, either 
abusing Trigger or making it a continuous effect. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:56:33 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: STR + HKA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 34 
 
ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>  
>         I'm using a sword (1d6 HKA, OAF).  I have a 60 STR.  What dice 
> of damage do I have and of what type? 
 
   Finally, a simple and straightforward question out of this 
troublemaker!  >:-)> 
 
STR can be added to HKA up to twice the damage class, but no more. 
 
I.E. 1D6 HKA and 10 STR equals MAX 1-1/2D6 HKA (3DC for HKA + 2DC for 
STR 
                                                   =5DC total, all 
killing damage) 
I.E. 1D6 HKA and 15 STR equals MAX 2D6 HKA (3DC STR + 3DC HKA = 6DC 
total) 
 
I.E. 1D6 HKA and 60 STR equals MAX 2D6 HKA (cannot exceed double HKA DC) 
 
   -Capt. Spith 
 
--  
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is 
long 
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter 
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along 
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong 
                                                       -'Wierd Al' 
 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:04:30 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Martial Arts + HKA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria wrote: 
>  
>     In the HKA description, it says that you cannot add more Damage 
> Classes to the HKA by your STR than what the HKA has itself, that is, the 
> damage done with HKA + STR cannot be more than 2 * damage of the HKA 
> alone. 
>     What about using Martials Arts with the HKA, would you use any kind of 
> limit like that ? 
 
   Martial Arts cannot be directly added to HKA.  I don't know if this 
is specifically spelled out, but it is at least *heavily* suggested in 
the Martial Arts section of the BBB/HSR.  Since MA has it's own maneuver 
for HKA (killing strike), I would rule that without that maneuver, MA 
cannot do or add to Killing Damage. 
   Conceptually, any Martial Arts package is a particular style of 
fighting learned to boost one's combat ability _when_using_that_style_.  
Using a sword or other HKA not included in the MA package does not 
employ the requisite style training, thus does not enjoy the OCV/DCV 
bonuses or increased maneuver damage. 
 
   -Capt. Spith  
 
--  
Everything you know is wrong, black is white, up is down and short is 
long 
And everything you used to think was just so important doesn't matter 
Everything you know is wrong, just forget the words and sing along 
All you need to understand is everything you know is wrong 
                                                       -'Wierd Al' 
 
 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:14:45 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial arts 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
>    My solution was intended for GMs who have a problem with players who 
> consider a "slow, lumbering mass of Rock" a 4 SPD, 20 DEX.  Both 
> lowering PCs' SPD/DEX averages and raising NPCs' SPD/DEX averages are 
> intended for games where a GM wants a smaller gulf between 'normals' and 
> heroes with no reason to have particularly superhuman speed.  It seems 
 
 
	But there is a good reason.  A very good reason.  The PCs are the 
main characters of the comic book.  They will do more than normal people, 
no matter what.  Even when they aren' more than highly trained mortals, 
they still well out maneuver and out speed normal non-important 
characters.  Even "lumbering hunks of rock" invariably get more panals, 
and thus more actions, then the normals. 
 
	We're not simulating reality, we're simulating Comic Books. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:33:22 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Martial Arts + HKA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
>    Martial Arts cannot be directly added to HKA.  I don't know if this 
> is specifically spelled out, but it is at least *heavily* suggested in 
> the Martial Arts section of the BBB/HSR.  Since MA has it's own maneuver 
> for HKA (killing strike), I would rule that without that maneuver, MA 
> cannot do or add to Killing Damage. 
 
	Eh?  What you smoking? 
 
>    Conceptually, any Martial Arts package is a particular style of 
> fighting learned to boost one's combat ability _when_using_that_style_. 
> Using a sword or other HKA not included in the MA package does not 
> employ the requisite style training, thus does not enjoy the OCV/DCV 
> bonuses or increased maneuver damage. 
 
	Oh.  Well of course one cannot use the art with a weapon that one 
has not paid for Weapon Element.  But any style could really have any 
Weapon Element, with some modified training.  Then it comes down to common 
sense.  If you have a swordfighting style, you get to use MA maneuvers 
with your weapon, though may not be able to use them bare handed.  If you 
have some form of Wu Shu with a sword element as well as bare hands, then 
the MA maneuvers apply all around. 
 
	See Ninja Hero or the Ultimate Martial Artist for some good 
martial arts constructions. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:36:09 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Setting a power level and making sure the PC is 3D 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> Then they get one of a variety of power packs. At random (I will pause here 
> whilst you all gasp). These might seem against the whole idea of hero (e.g. 
> playing who you want to play) but then Spiderman did not get to pick  his 
> powers either...... 
 
	Yuck.  Remind me not to play in your games.  And you miss the 
point.  While Spidy didn't pick his powers, personality, etc, his creator 
and authors did.  Really, the characters _aren't_ picking their own 
powers, the players (read creators/writers) are. 
 
	BTW, when you are going to post something and quote, get rid of 
the unused portion of the quote.  It wastes time, space, and bandwith to 
have so much unneccesary included with the pertinent. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:46:45 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Martial Arts + HKA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:29 PM 10/29/97 -0200, Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria wrote: 
>    In the HKA description, it says that you cannot add more Damage 
>Classes to the HKA by your STR than what the HKA has itself, that is, the 
>damage done with HKA + STR cannot be more than 2 * damage of the HKA 
>alone. 
>    What about using Martials Arts with the HKA, would you use any kind of 
>limit like that ? 
 
   You mean Martial Arts maneuvers that use HKA as their basis? 
   Same limitation.  Added Damage Classes to Martial Arts add to the base 
HKA; the character may add STR to increase that up to twice the base HKA. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:48:43 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: STR + HKA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:12 PM 10/29/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
> I'm using a sword (1d6 HKA, OAF).  I have a 60 STR.  What dice 
>of damage do I have and of what type? 
 
   You may do 12d6 Normal damage, or 2d6 Killing. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: moriarty@mail.mhonline.net 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:03:06 -0500 
From: "Jason D. Hendricks" <moriarty@mhonline.net> 
Subject: Re: STR + HKA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<snip> 
 
>I.E. 1D6 HKA and 60 STR equals MAX 2D6 HKA (cannot exceed double HKA DC) 
> 
>   -Capt. Spith 
> 
 
Doesn't that seem a bit silly though? If a character can juggle tanks, and 
do a whopping 12d6 (60 active points) with his normal punch, why should he 
be limited to a mere 2d6 HKA (30 active points)? 
That's like saying that if you tie a rock to the front of a dumptruck and 
smash into a Brick, he would take a maximum damage of the rock x 2... 
 
 
-J 
 
 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:35:27 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists.... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>Solution? Make all 'normal' (non-killing, non-NND) martial arts maneuvers 
>>have 'Reduced Penetration'. So Joe MA with 20 STR could do a straight 4D6 
>>punch, or haul out his Offensive Strike and do 8D6 Reduced Penetration. 
>>Little change in effectiveness against low-defense humans, makes MA-vs.-MA 
>>combat last longer (as it should), and renders MAs less effective vs. Bricks 
>>- as it should be. Also keeps Martial Artists from punching through brick 
>>walls on a regular basis (buy the board-busting trick as an HA if you want 
>>it). 
 
>In many martial arts, it is not how hard you hit... it is how you hit. 
 
While this 'old saw' is valid, it kinda falls down in the face of 
superhumans, IMHO. A 'normal' martial artist (i.e. still within the realm of 
normal human possibility - 15 to 20 STR, a couple extra DC, Offensive 
Strikes) can level punches that can bother a Brick who can survive a 
building collapsing atop him. And while I have no real problem with the 
'powerful chi' martial artist doing this, 
joe-normal-brute-force-in-the-right-place shouldn't be doing this, IMHO. And 
he certainly shouldn't be able to punch through brick walls. Take away the 
spaces between those bricks in the stack and see how well that brick-busting 
trick works... 
 
>A highly trained martial artist would be fully aware of where the nerve 
>centres in the body of a human being were, and where a blow could be placed 
>in order to incapacitate/kill. 
 
An ordinary person, yes. But this doesn't stop Joe MA from hitting that guy 
in Powered Armor just as hard (same dice being thrown around). Knowing what 
nerve clusters to hit doesn't help when you're facing somebody in 
Maximillain Plate. 
 
>In this scenario I see no reason why a MA should not be able to take down a 
>brick. 
 
But that's _one_ scenario that assumes said Brick is arranged exactly like a 
normal human being. And I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that many aren't. 
 
>As for the problem of punching through walls/doors etc. In certain scenarios 
>these guys do do this (how many times have we seen doors crumble before a 
>mighty kick). 
 
Doors are only as strong as their locks and hinges - meaning, not very, for 
most doors. My point is, there _are_ limits to what a 'normal' human fist or 
foot can do - just like Dark Champs puts a limit on what a 'normal' bladed 
weapon can do. I'm not saying that making all standard damage martial arts 
strikes 'Reduced Penetration' is a perfect solution, but it does prevent the 
kind of wierdness that allows that boxer to tear off some poor normal's head 
with one punch (an exagguration, to be sure, but not by much) or to put his 
fist through steel plate (DEF 7, and an 8D6 punch is nowhere near out of 
reach for a boxer). 
 
 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"You know, I feel pretty good." 
"Yeah, me too. I've got a real positive attitude." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Subject: Re: STR + HKA 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 15:46:26 -0500 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 10/29/97 3:03 PM, Jason D. Hendricks (moriarty@mhonline.net) Said: 
 
>Doesn't that seem a bit silly though? If a character can juggle tanks, and 
>do a whopping 12d6 (60 active points) with his normal punch, why should he 
>be limited to a mere 2d6 HKA (30 active points)? 
>That's like saying that if you tie a rock to the front of a dumptruck and 
>smash into a Brick, he would take a maximum damage of the rock x 2... 
 
This is the maximum the sword can do. Get a better sword, and you can do  
more. Try to do more with this sword and it's useless. 
 
BTW, your illustration about the rock is not as valid as it may seem,  
since the tank will hit you as well, and doing a move through, not a  
strike, at that. Maybe it would help if you thought of it as a sword,  
tied to the side of the tank, so as to do a move by (but don't forget to  
add manuever damage, as well). 
 
                                         |  David A. Fair 
        Think Different                  |  SDS International 
                                         |  dfair@sdslink.com 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: STR + HKA 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 29 Oct 1997 15:48:14 -0500 
Lines: 26 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "JDH" == Jason D Hendricks <moriarty@mhonline.net> writes: 
 
JDH> Doesn't that seem a bit silly though? If a character can juggle tanks, 
JDH> and do a whopping 12d6 (60 active points) with his normal punch, why 
JDH> should he be limited to a mere 2d6 HKA (30 active points)? 
 
To prevent someone with a 75 strength from getting a 5D6 HKA for a mere 15 
points.  It is a balance restriction. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should 
                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. 
 
From: alkmist@juno.com 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:05:20 -0500 
Subject: Subject: Re: Acronyms 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-10 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Here is one used in my group. 
Dominion 
Over 
Mankind 
Interstellar 
Network 
Of 
Subversion 
or 
D.O.M.I.N.O.S 
 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:14:33 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: STR + HKA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> Doesn't that seem a bit silly though? If a character can juggle tanks, and 
> do a whopping 12d6 (60 active points) with his normal punch, why should he 
> be limited to a mere 2d6 HKA (30 active points)? 
> That's like saying that if you tie a rock to the front of a dumptruck and 
> smash into a Brick, he would take a maximum damage of the rock x 2... 
 
 
	Actually, he'd take the total of the rock's DEF and BOD in dice, 
then, as the truck is right behind it, the rest of the damge.  Plus some 
KB damage.  Plus, probably, the truck running over the KOed brick. 
 
	As for the KA, it's a limit on what it can do.  A small blade will 
be limited by its nature to a certain upper limit where no amount of STR 
will help.  Same thing (in non Superhero games) for normal items with a 
listed amount of KA.  No more than double is a guideline that works and is 
balanced. 
 
	You want the full 60 AP of HKA?  Buy 30 AP (2d6) to begin with. 
I.E., take a bigger sword that allows fuller use of the Brick's power. 
That rapier just has no ability to power through that brick wall.  Yes, 
it'd be more effective to punch the damn thing. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:33:53 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: STR + HKA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Jason D. Hendricks wrote: 
>  
> <snip> 
>  
> >I.E. 1D6 HKA and 60 STR equals MAX 2D6 HKA (cannot exceed double HKA DC) 
> > 
> >   -Capt. Spith 
> > 
>  
> Doesn't that seem a bit silly though? If a character can juggle tanks, and 
> do a whopping 12d6 (60 active points) with his normal punch, why should he 
> be limited to a mere 2d6 HKA (30 active points)? 
> That's like saying that if you tie a rock to the front of a dumptruck and 
> smash into a Brick, he would take a maximum damage of the rock x 2... 
 
   1)In this instance, I am simply quoting the gospel according to 
HERO... 
 
   B)A brick who can juggle tanks is not limited to a mere 30 AP, he can 
do 60 AP, but only normal damage.  The idea is that with Killing damage, 
the damage is due more to tearing or slicing than blunt crushing (oh, 
don't throw a Mace example at me, I'm trying to make a point).  The 
damage which is specifically KILLING damage is limited because the 
nature of the damage is that it is more concentrated. 
   If you hit an Orange with your fist, it will be more damaged the 
harder you hit it (up to the point where it is completely decimated, of 
course, at which point you can't damage it any further).  If you slice 
it with a large knife, you would cleave it in two.  No matter how strong 
you are, the knife can't do any more damage than cleaving it in two with 
one blow.  If you poke it with a pin (a really small killing attack) no 
matter how much force you use, the pin will only do a small amount of 
damage, because the base damage level of the pin is small.  In such 
instances, given a choice between crushing an Orange with a pin (small 
KA) or your Brick-level STR (higher AP normal attack) you should choose 
the normal damage instead of trying to strike with the pin REALLY HARD, 
because it just won't do enough damage. 
 
   Okay, the example was a little silly, but I think I made my point. 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:41:14 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Martial Arts + HKA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
> >    Conceptually, any Martial Arts package is a particular style of 
> > fighting learned to boost one's combat ability _when_using_that_style_. 
> > Using a sword or other HKA not included in the MA package does not 
> > employ the requisite style training, thus does not enjoy the OCV/DCV 
> > bonuses or increased maneuver damage. 
>  
>         Oh.  Well of course one cannot use the art with a weapon that one 
> has not paid for Weapon Element.  But any style could really have any 
> Weapon Element, with some modified training.  Then it comes down to common 
> sense.  If you have a swordfighting style, you get to use MA maneuvers 
> with your weapon, though may not be able to use them bare handed.  If you 
> have some form of Wu Shu with a sword element as well as bare hands, then 
> the MA maneuvers apply all around. 
 
   Forgive me for not being clear enough, but I think I implied as 
much.  If a Sword (for example) is bought as a part of the MA package 
(WF:sword), and defined as a MA element, then sure it fits within my 
stated criterium of using the MA style to gain CV and damage bonuses.  I 
was thinking more directly of unrelated HKA such as a guy who has big 
claws, but learned (say) kickboxing, and did not incorporate 'slaw 
slicing' into the art specifically; his claw slashing would not be a 
part of the kickboxing style, therefore would not gain CV/Damage bonuses 
from the art.  But he could add his normal STR.... 
 
>  
>         See Ninja Hero or the Ultimate Martial Artist for some good 
> martial arts constructions. 
>  
>                         -Tim Gilberg 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:50:26 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: STR + HKA, Adv & Lim 
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org" 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
	Conquest, alien conquistidor brick, had a Undanium saber that 
does some nasty damage (1d6 KA [penetrating, armor piercing; OAF]). 
	He has a 60 STR. 
	He does 2d6 KA penetrating, armor piercing... 
	...or am I wrong. 
 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:58:02 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Martial Arts + HKA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
>    Forgive me for not being clear enough, but I think I implied as 
> much.  If a Sword (for example) is bought as a part of the MA package 
> (WF:sword), and defined as a MA element, then sure it fits within my 
> stated criterium of using the MA style to gain CV and damage bonuses.  I 
> was thinking more directly of unrelated HKA such as a guy who has big 
> claws, but learned (say) kickboxing, and did not incorporate 'slaw 
> slicing' into the art specifically; his claw slashing would not be a 
> part of the kickboxing style, therefore would not gain CV/Damage bonuses 
> from the art.  But he could add his normal STR.... 
k 
 
	True, but in your original post you seemed to imply no possible 
way to do this. 
 
	And as for our kickboxing friend, well, he probably will soon 
train himself to mix his claws into his fighting style. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"Vox Ludator!\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 22:33:16  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Acronyms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 28 Oct 1997 03:21:31 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
>.  I worked out DEMON in latin, beginning with 
>"Deus Es Mortum" (God Is Dead) ... then promptly forgot it. I've been trying 
>to work out those last two letters for the past year, and still haven't 
>found a satisfactory solution. 
 
Possibly because the first three are wrong? 'God is dead' is rendered 
in Latin as 'Deus mortuus est' 
 
How about 'Demons Exist, Master One Now'? :} 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 22:57:14  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Invisibility, Flash, Darkness 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 26 Oct 1997 15:19:09 -0500 (EST), ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
 
>	I'm designing an annoying antagonist who is a bubbly, cute 
>teen-- and also happens to be totally unhittable.		 
>	Her name is Mischeif.  For some reason, no human can target her. 
>Guns have been drawn on her, even at the closest of ranges, yet they 
>never hit.  Martial Artists will be embarassed because (gasp!) they 
>swing, but miss. 
>	Her power is mentally based.  I was thinking about giving 
>her Invisibility (no fringe, targeting senses only), as well as  
>Flash (targeting sense), and darkness (personal immunity, targeting 
>sense). 
 
Surely this is Desolidification with the restriction 'not vs area 
effect or mental attacks' and the Limitation 'Cannot pass through Solid 
Objects'?  
 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:36:18 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: STR + HKA, Adv & Lim 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>  
>         Conquest, alien conquistidor brick, had a Undanium saber that 
> does some nasty damage (1d6 KA [penetrating, armor piercing; OAF]). 
>         He has a 60 STR. 
>         He does 2d6 KA penetrating, armor piercing... 
>         ...or am I wrong. 
 
   Yes, that's right.  Just remember that when adding STR to a HKA, if 
the KA has advantages, the STR must accommodate the advantage cost as 
well; 
   To add STR enough to double the 1D6 Penetrating(+1/2)AP(+1/2)HKA, you 
must use 30 STR to match the 30 active points in the HKA.  The 
limitation has no bearing on STR used. 
 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:43:00 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net 
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists.... 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
>Doors are only as strong as their locks and hinges - meaning, not very, for 
>most doors. My point is, there _are_ limits to what a 'normal' human fist or 
>foot can do - just like Dark Champs puts a limit on what a 'normal' bladed 
>weapon can do. I'm not saying that making all standard damage martial arts 
>strikes 'Reduced Penetration' is a perfect solution, but it does prevent the 
>kind of wierdness that allows that boxer to tear off some poor normal's head 
>with one punch (an exagguration, to be sure, but not by much) or to put his 
>fist through steel plate (DEF 7, and an 8D6 punch is nowhere near out of 
>reach for a boxer). 
> 
 
 
 
This solution just seems to strike as as unfair. It arbitrarily limits 
concept that is valid just by sfx alone? What "compensation" does the player 
who wants to play a martial artist get in return? The Brick gets high 
defenses and non retricted damage, Energy projectors get no damage limits, 
range and (An assumption, I know) the ability to get things like force 
feilds for defense. This seems to limit MAs to being effective mainly aginst 
agenst and others MAs. As someone pointed out before, there have been cases 
of "non powered" MA taking down Bricks directly or at least proving equal to 
them. 
> 
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>"You know, I feel pretty good." 
>"Yeah, me too. I've got a real positive attitude." 
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>John D. Prins 
>jprins@interhop.net 
> 
> 
 
 
I know violence doesn't solve all problems... 
	But it sure feels good! 
		Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior 
 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:47:26 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists.... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>Doors are only as strong as their locks and hinges - meaning, not very, for 
>>most doors. My point is, there _are_ limits to what a 'normal' human fist or 
>>foot can do - just like Dark Champs puts a limit on what a 'normal' bladed 
>>weapon can do. I'm not saying that making all standard damage martial arts 
>>strikes 'Reduced Penetration' is a perfect solution, but it does prevent the 
>>kind of wierdness that allows that boxer to tear off some poor normal's head 
>>with one punch (an exagguration, to be sure, but not by much) or to put his 
>>fist through steel plate (DEF 7, and an 8D6 punch is nowhere near out of 
>>reach for a boxer). 
> 
>This solution just seems to strike as as unfair. It arbitrarily limits 
>concept that is valid just by sfx alone? What "compensation" does the player 
>who wants to play a martial artist get in return? 
 
Well, gee, there are piles of martial arts abilities that are disgustingly 
cheap - like the NND strikes, killing strikes, extra STR for almost nothing 
(Disarm, Grab), Extra Levels at discount rates (defensive strike +1 OCV is 2 
points, but +3 DCV is worth at least 9 - that's 11 points worth for 5 actual 
points!). Not to mention that most martial artists are _allowed_ (yes, 
_allowed_) by their very concept to have higher-than-average DEX and SPDs, 
and we know how effective that can be! 
 
>This seems to limit MAs to being effective mainly aginst 
>agenst and others MAs. 
 
Which I'll say, strictly speaking, IS comic book genre. Batman, despite 
being one of the best MAs in the DC universe, couldn't take down most of the 
bricks in DC without using means other than 'raw' damage punches (he could 
use NNDs in some cases, but that's another matter). 
 
> As someone pointed out before, there have been cases 
>of "non powered" MA taking down Bricks directly or at least proving equal to 
>them. 
 
Give me specific examples - I'll bet most of them involve the MA using 
something other than just plain punches and kicks. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"You know, I feel pretty good." 
"Yeah, me too. I've got a real positive attitude." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford) 
Subject: Re: STR + HKA 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:59:30 GMT 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 29 Oct 97 15:46:26 -0500, you wrote: 
 
>On 10/29/97 3:03 PM, Jason D. Hendricks (moriarty@mhonline.net) Said: 
> 
>>Doesn't that seem a bit silly though? If a character can juggle tanks, and 
>>do a whopping 12d6 (60 active points) with his normal punch, why should he 
>>be limited to a mere 2d6 HKA (30 active points)? 
>>That's like saying that if you tie a rock to the front of a dumptruck and 
>>smash into a Brick, he would take a maximum damage of the rock x 2... 
> 
>This is the maximum the sword can do. Get a better sword, and you can do  
>more. Try to do more with this sword and it's useless. 
 
That's the way I explain it too. The sword's metal isn't up to 
generating more damage than that. Get a better sword and the 60 STR 
character can dish out more killing damage. 
 
John Lansford 
 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:52:36 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net 
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists.... 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
>>This solution just seems to strike as as unfair. It arbitrarily limits 
>>concept that is valid just by sfx alone? What "compensation" does the player 
>>who wants to play a martial artist get in return? 
> 
>Well, gee, there are piles of martial arts abilities that are disgustingly 
>cheap - like the NND strikes, killing strikes, extra STR for almost nothing 
>(Disarm, Grab), Extra Levels at discount rates (defensive strike +1 OCV is 2 
>points, but +3 DCV is worth at least 9 - that's 11 points worth for 5 actual 
>points!). Not to mention that most martial artists are _allowed_ (yes, 
>_allowed_) by their very concept to have higher-than-average DEX and SPDs, 
>and we know how effective that can be! 
> 
 
Several concepts allow high dex and speed. Speedsters, for example. Even 
"bricks" don't have to be slow. Some of the most well known "example" bricks 
have superhuman speed and skill, like Superman.  
 
 
>>This seems to limit MAs to being effective mainly aginst 
>>agenst and others MAs. 
> 
>Which I'll say, strictly speaking, IS comic book genre. Batman, despite 
>being one of the best MAs in the DC universe, couldn't take down most of the 
>bricks in DC without using means other than 'raw' damage punches (he could 
>use NNDs in some cases, but that's another matter). 
 
 
 
>> As someone pointed out before, there have been cases 
>>of "non powered" MA taking down Bricks directly or at least proving equal to 
>>them. 
> 
>Give me specific examples - I'll bet most of them involve the MA using 
>something other than just plain punches and kicks. 
> 
 
 
The example that pops into my mind is a battle between Mantis and Wonderman 
in an OLD Avengers. One of the most telling attacks was a kick that stunned 
him. It did strike him in the sternum and knocked the wind out of him.  It 
looked like  straight forward attack that did enough to stun him. Of course, 
it could be argused that it was a use of Find Weakness, an armor peircing 
strike, weird looking NND strike ( alien martial art, after all).  
 
I apoligize for not haveing more examples prepared but I'm not much of a 
comic book guru.  
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>"You know, I feel pretty good." 
>"Yeah, me too. I've got a real positive attitude." 
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>John D. Prins 
>jprins@interhop.net 
> 
> 
 
 
I know violence doesn't solve all problems... 
	But it sure feels good! 
		Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior 
 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:55:37 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Comic book martial artists...... 
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org" 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
     Characters, regardless of concepts of Sf/x are limited to doing 
certain ammounts of damage, as well as having certain limits on 
the active costs of powers. 
     In an 'average' four color Champions game, with the 'average' 
limitations on active points and such, how much damage can a MA 
dish out? 
     In an 'average' Hero system heroic game, with the 'average' 
limitations on active points and such, how much damage can a MA 
dish out?  (...without weapons) 
     						Kai-Eiiiii!!!!! 
						 Jason Sullivan 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:01:20 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy? 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:44 PM 10/26/97 -0500, you wrote: 
 
>	Little value, indeed.  I, for one, have a habit of ignoring 
>threads that have degenerated into petty arguments.  I find no 
>game-relevance in the "Study of Damaged Brains has no relevance to Healthy 
>Brains" argument, unless for some reason I wanted to role-play said 
>argument. 
> 
 
oh, please. Some of the most fooish and pretentious theories in  
existance got their start over-evaluating information based on  
unhealthy structures.  
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:04:36 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy? 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:30 PM 10/26/97 -0600, you wrote: 
> 
>> 'case studies'? like when people made up that theoy about 
>> 'left brain/right bain' based on work with SEVERE epilectics who'd 
>> had their brain chopped in half? you can't generalise ANY such 
>> statements to the greater population. Freud made a complete goof 
> 
> 
>	Guys, I thought he was just obnoxious, now I see he is ignorant as 
>well. 
> 
> 
 
grand-aul (sp) epileptich had their corpus callusum severed to aid their  
problem. This is the case study upon which most of the more outlandish claims  
on the nature of hemisperic organisation is based. i already sdaid please,  
but let my put in in more 'obnoixous' terms, if that's what you want. 
DO NOT make pointless statememts on ignorance based on your own stupidity.  
 
 
 
>			-Tim Gilberg 
> 
> 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:09:09 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy? 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:13 PM 10/26/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "j" == jonesmj <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> writes: 
> 
>j> no, they are FALSE! you are making jugements on the workings of 
>j> healthy brains based on damaged ones? 
> 
>You really don't know what is going on, do you. 
> 
>Much of what is currently known in neurology has been learned by comparing 
>damage from strokes.  To wit, the fact that specific higher functions are 
>not located in specific areas of the brain was discovered by observing that 
>stroke victims with similar damage are often not similarly affected.  Given 
>similar damage, some victims suffer loss of motor control, others lose 
>speech/language comprehension, others lose memory.  Some manage to recover 
>partially or fully even though those parts of their brains are dead tissue. 
> 
>Now, tell me that this observation does not tell us anything about how a 
>healthy brain functions. 
> 
 
well, apart from the fact that it isn't a healthy brain? The actual original  
point was your suggestion about us al  thinking the same way, just  
in differnt places was supported by studies of stroke victims.  
Once again poeple make pointles use of the 'never say never' argument, okay replace 'does not tell us anything' with 'any git can see what i meant'.  
 
 
 
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:31:14 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy? 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:18 AM 10/27/97 -0800, you wrote: 
> 
>Mr. Jones: if you have an alternative theory of how the brain works that  
>might be useful from a GMing perspective, please present it.  If you are  
>aware of authoritative texts, articles or web sites that present your  
>position, please name them.  Thank you for your cooperation; The Computer  
>is your friend. 
> 
 
what i'm discussing is common and basic scientific practice- you DON'T  
generalise a skewed study to the entire population! Studies of stroke victims 
DO NOT support rat's original position, urthermore the 'studies' done in neurology 
are notoriously colored by the agenda of the group in question. Much of the  
debate on cranial reorganisation and the neural nature of memory ,  
for instance has been hyjacked by people attempting to 'prove' that 
nature dominates nuture in personality. Other biases have been caused  
by groups trying to prove or disprove the value of narcotics like niccotene, and  
all this mess has led to a reprehensable loss of proper scientific perspective.  
 
AS a long-time student of psycology, phisiology, neurology and most important- 
the SCIENTIFIC METHOD, i am confident than any other genuinely educated and up-to-date student (as opposed to hidebound and out-of-date pet theory proponent)will recognise  
the objection made to the rat's original statement that studies of stroke victims  
support his original point.   
 
 
>--  
><-------------------------------------------------------> 
>Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
>Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
>http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
> 
> 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:31:15 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy? 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
>>Mr. Jones: if you have an alternative theory of how the brain works that  
>>might be useful from a GMing perspective, please present it.  If you are  
>>aware of authoritative texts, articles or web sites that present your  
>>position, please name them.  Thank you for your cooperation; The Computer  
>>is your friend. 
>> 
> 
>what i'm discussing is common and basic scientific practice- you DON'T  
>generalise a skewed study to the entire population! Studies of stroke victims 
>DO NOT support rat's original position, furthermore the 'studies' done in neurology 
>are notoriously colored by the agenda of the group in question. Much of the  
>debate on cranial reorganisation and the neural nature of memory ,  
>for instance has been hyjacked by people attempting to 'prove' that 
>nature dominates nuture in personality. Other biases have been caused  
>by groups trying to prove or disprove the value of narcotics like niccotene, and  
>all this mess has led to a reprehensable loss of proper scientific perspective.  
> 
>AS a long-time student of psycology, phisiology, neurology and most important- 
>the SCIENTIFIC METHOD, i am confident than any other genuinely educated and up-to-date student (as opposed to hidebound and out-of-date pet theory proponent)will recognise  
>the objection made to the rat's original statement that studies of stroke victims  
>support his original point.   
> 
> 
>>--  
>><-------------------------------------------------------> 
>>Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
>>Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
>>http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
>> 
>> 
> 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:31:16 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Black Hole 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:02 PM 10/26/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "j" == jonesmj <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> writes: 
> 
>j> no, that is based on light existing as the benchmark. 
> 
>No, that is based on the fundamental e=mc^2.  Nothing prevents an object 
>with mass from moving faster or slower than c.  What is prevented is 
>accelerating an object with mass *to* c.  So long as mass is a non-nil 
>quantity, an object cannot travel *at* c.  It is an absolute boundary that 
>cannot be crossed. 
> 
 
ONLY if light is genuine 'C'! and if light is not c (i.e. what you define as c here)  
then light speed is no biggie. Otherwise your just useing circular logic- 
'c is the limit, light speed is the limit because it's called c and c is the  
limit to light speed?'  
 
nuh-uh!  
 
 
>The "problem" with FTL travel is crossing that absolute boundary without 
>actually passing through it. 
> 
 
and what's this hash about linear acceleration?  
 
 >[...] 
> 
>j> so yer saying no-one will ever traverse a black hole? 
> 
>No, I am saying that based on what is currently known about black holes it 
 
it's not 'waht is currently known' it's  
'what is currently theorised', and technically (since it's also been  
cohesively theorised that some black holes can dissolve) the event horizon 
is an entirely subjectibe concept dependant on perspective and time-frame.  
I understand the use of this theory as a maxim of sorts, but for one of the  
people who just bagged me out for my use of the word 'nothing' you are really  
wallowing in your own subjectivity on this one. .  
 
 
 
>is impossible to escape the gravitational field of the singularity once a 
>thing has approached to a certain distance -- the event horizon. 
> 
 
and the even horizon is dependant on the assumption that light speed exists as  
is atated in yon equasion. And nobody's even come close to proving that.  
 
 
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:35:25 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re:  Re: Re: Re: Re: Black Hole 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:36 AM 10/28/97 -0600, you wrote: 
> 
>> >>>The problem is that anything with mass cannot accelerate past "c". 
>> >>Anything can move slower than c; hypothetically things can travel faster 
>> >than c.  But crossing c is impossible so long as there is mass. 
>> 
>> I switch my VPP to FTL. I escape. End of story. 
> 
>	As the tidal forces pull you into many (very long and very thin) 
>pieces. 
> 
 
only if the black hole is relatively small. .. large black holes 
don't cause spagettification.  
 
 
 
>> See my earlier comment on telepathic "realism". 
> 
>	uh huh, your point? 
> 
> 
 
 
 
>			-Tim Gilberg 
> 
> 
 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:51:40 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re:  Re: Re: Re: Re: Black Hole 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 1 
 
 
> only if the black hole is relatively small. .. large black holes 
> don't cause spagettification. 
k 
 
	Um, yeah.  However, most are small enough to do so.  When large is 
used with this topic, it really means _large_. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:56:45 -0500 (EST) 
From: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 2 
 
On Thu, 30 Oct 1997 jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
 
> >	Little value, indeed.  I, for one, have a habit of ignoring 
> >threads that have degenerated into petty arguments.  I find no 
> >game-relevance in the "Study of Damaged Brains has no relevance to Healthy 
> >Brains" argument, unless for some reason I wanted to role-play said 
> >argument. 
> > 
>  
> oh, please. Some of the most fooish and pretentious theories in  
> existance got their start over-evaluating information based on  
> unhealthy structures.  
 
	Are you sure you're replying to _my_ post?  The points I attempted 
to make were; 
 
1)  The thread entitled "Multilingual Telepathy" had degenerated into 
pointless arguments, and 
 
2)  Such arguments have no relevance to the role-playing game Champions. 
 
	Your response was to point out that; 
 
1)  Theories based on biased data lack value, according to the Scientific 
Method. 
 
	While I agree with your point, it has nothing to do with mine.  A 
fallacy or revelance, if I remember my Logic. 
 
	However, it may be that I'm being incredibly obtuse, and your 
response contains deep insight into my argument.  If so, please enlighten 
me. 
 
	          William K. Bushway, wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu 
	          http://Mason.GMU.edu/~wbushway/index.html 
	   "I'm betting that I'm just abnormal enough to survive." 
		    -The Tick, The Tick Vs.The Breadmaster 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists.... 
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:53:09 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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On Wednesday, October 29, 1997 5:45 PM, Kim Foster wrote: 
 
 
<snip a suggestion of giving "Reduced Penetration" to MA attacks> 
> 
> 
>This solution just seems to strike as as unfair. It arbitrarily 
limits 
>concept that is valid just by sfx alone? What "compensation" does the 
player 
>who wants to play a martial artist get in return? 
 
Cheaper attacks. 
 
>The Brick gets high 
>defenses and non retricted damage, Energy projectors get no damage 
limits, 
>range and (An assumption, I know) the ability to get things like 
force 
>feilds for defense. This seems to limit MAs to being effective mainly 
aginst 
>agenst and others MAs. As someone pointed out before, there have been 
cases 
>of "non powered" MA taking down Bricks directly or at least proving 
equal to 
>them. 
 
Reduced Penetration has no effect on the Martial Artists ability to 
take down a brick. RP affects only the BODY damage done, not STUN. 
Thus, the MA can knock the brick out, he just can't kill him. 
 
This is appropriate to comic book martial artists. I recall Daredevil 
having to use a small piece of steel to etch  out old mortar in a 
brick wall to escaped being sealed in alive. Spiderman has had 
problems with fairly standard bricks, on a similar power level to him, 
who he was all but unable to hurt. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Black Hole 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:04:28 -0800 
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On Wednesday, October 29, 1997 5:59 PM, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
wrote: 
 
 
><snip> 
>and the even horizon is dependant on the assumption that light speed 
exists as 
>is atated in yon equasion. And nobody's even come close to proving 
that. 
 
 
Proving it to within 99.999+%, and repeatedly basing theories upon it 
which pan out isn't enough? Sorry, using you're definition of "close 
to proving that", I would have to argue that virtually 99% of all 
science isn't close to proving itself. 
 
If you wish to believe that, fine. However, I submit that virtually 
everything in your life which you believe has far less proof than what 
scientists have to show that C as used in E=MC^2 is the speed of 
light. I suggest that you talk to a physicist before you make claims 
like that. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy? 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:07:32 -0800 
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On Wednesday, October 29, 1997 5:59 PM, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>>AS a long-time student of psycology, phisiology, neurology and most 
important- 
>>the SCIENTIFIC METHOD, i am confident than any other genuinely 
educated and up-to-date student (as opposed to hidebound and 
out-of-date pet theory proponent)will recognise 
>>the objection made to the rat's original statement that studies of 
stroke victims 
>>support his original point. 
 
 
As a long-time student of physiology, I would at least expect you to 
know how to spell it. Please do not try to claim expertise in a field 
you cannot even spell. 
 
Filksinger 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:52:16 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists.... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Mhoram wrote: 
>John and Ron Prins wrote: 
><lotsa discussion snipped) 
>>  
>> > As someone pointed out before, there have been cases 
>> >of "non powered" MA taking down Bricks directly or at least proving equal to 
>> >them. 
>>  
>> Give me specific examples - I'll bet most of them involve the MA using 
>> something other than just plain punches and kicks. 
> 
>My biggest example is Karate Kid in the Legion of Super Heroes. Stated 
>repeatedly that he had no superpowers, and his abilities were only those 
>he built by training day by day (and her very rarly showed any mystic 
>side, didn't do the Ch'i thing at all). He has fought Superboy to a 
>standstill, and has taken down major villians. This is a character that 
>by special effect was a normal raw power martial artist, and he could 
>keep up with some of the powerhouses of the DCU. 
> 
>Just throwing out the example, and I consider KK to be an exeption not a 
>rule. 
> 
Well, KK *does* have Find Weakness at godawful levels...  My brother once 
explained that he was the main character archetype for which they wrote up 
that Power (or Skill, now a Talent).  This could be wrong, but it's close 
(and it fits how they got the term "Ultra slot" from "Ultraboy," also from 
the Legion)...  But he used it PreCrisis, and PreZero Hour.  *And* he's used 
it in the new continuity, too...  trapped in a high tech cell with one of 
the Legionairres, he was just staring at a Force Wall (probably with high 
levels of Lack of Weakness).  XS was rambling (as she is wont to do), but 
realized he wasn't listening at all, and asked him what he was doing. 
"Looking for a weak spot."  "Oh...  In a Force Field!?"  I figure, he moved 
his Action down the Time Chart for bonuses so he wouldn't fail, and then he 
did it several times to get, say, x1/16 Defenses...  He punched right 
through it once the break out was under way. 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:51:34 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Acronyms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
/qts/ wrote: 
>>.  I worked out DEMON in latin, beginning with 
>>"Deus Es Mortum" (God Is Dead) ... then promptly forgot it. I've been trying 
>>to work out those last two letters for the past year, and still haven't 
>>found a satisfactory solution. 
> 
>Possibly because the first three are wrong? 'God is dead' is rendered 
>in Latin as 'Deus mortuus est' 
> 
But there isn't a set grammatical structure in Latin, so this could be 
rewritten, "Deus Est Mortuus..."  As long as the three letters are correct... 
 
>How about 'Demons Exist, Master One Now'? :} 
> 
Cute. 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 03:44:16 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists.... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 6 
 
Kim Foster wrote: 
>  
> >Doors are only as strong as their locks and hinges - meaning, not very, for 
> >most doors. My point is, there _are_ limits to what a 'normal' human fist or 
> >foot can do - just like Dark Champs puts a limit on what a 'normal' bladed 
> >weapon can do. I'm not saying that making all standard damage martial arts 
> >strikes 'Reduced Penetration' is a perfect solution, but it does prevent the 
> >kind of wierdness that allows that boxer to tear off some poor normal's head 
> >with one punch (an exagguration, to be sure, but not by much) or to put his 
> >fist through steel plate (DEF 7, and an 8D6 punch is nowhere near out of 
> >reach for a boxer). 
> > 
>  
> This solution just seems to strike as as unfair. It arbitrarily limits 
> concept that is valid just by sfx alone? What "compensation" does the player 
> who wants to play a martial artist get in return? The Brick gets high 
> defenses and non retricted damage, Energy projectors get no damage limits, 
> range and (An assumption, I know) the ability to get things like force 
> feilds for defense. This seems to limit MAs to being effective mainly aginst 
> agenst and others MAs. As someone pointed out before, there have been cases 
> of "non powered" MA taking down Bricks directly or at least proving equal to 
> them. 
 
   I think that what is being argued here, anymore, is semantics.  If a 
player wants to play a 'realistic' Martial Artist, then the character 
will be generally outclassed by classically built Super-Heroes.  By 
definition.  If a player wants to play a 30 DEX, 5 SPD character with a 
Martial Arts package containing a lot of extra DCs, then (s)he may call 
it what (s)he likes, but it would not be a 'realistic' Martial Artist. 
   I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that all 
martial arts packages should be 'reigned in', but rather to more closely 
simulate a 'normal human' martial art, some alterations to the existing 
rules may be in order.  On the other hand, i think that playing a 
"super-martial artist" falls outside the boundaries of this thread. 
   Besides, I defy you to find any GM who actually allows Bricks or 
Energy Projectors to have 'Non-Restricted Damage' in his/her games.  
Alright, there're certainly some somewhere, but certainly not commonly. 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:50:37 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists.... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   Hm, using Time bonuses on Find Weakness... now, why has that never 
>occurred to me before? 
> 
Well, the main reason I thought of it was because I was explaining why it 
took Karate Kid that long to break down that Force Wall...  I don't think 
it's *horribly* abusive, and would be *much* more useful on inanimate 
objects and other things that don't hit back...  (like boards).  The other 
reason for allowing it is because Find Weakness is specifically given a time 
constraint (1/2 Phase action) in the BBB. 
 
- Jerry, who is sure it just wasn't important enough to Mr. Greenwade for 
him to think of before... 
 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:51:56 -0700 
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net> 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists.... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 8 
 
John and Ron Prins wrote: 
<lotsa discussion snipped) 
>  
> > As someone pointed out before, there have been cases 
> >of "non powered" MA taking down Bricks directly or at least proving equal to 
> >them. 
>  
> Give me specific examples - I'll bet most of them involve the MA using 
> something other than just plain punches and kicks. 
 
My biggest example is Karate Kid in the Legion of Super Heroes. Stated 
repeatedly that he had no superpowers, and his abilities were only those 
he built by training day by day (and her very rarly showed any mystic 
side, didn't do the Ch'i thing at all). He has fought Superboy to a 
standstill, and has taken down major villians. This is a character that 
by special effect was a normal raw power martial artist, and he could 
keep up with some of the powerhouses of the DCU. 
 
Just throwing out the example, and I consider KK to be an exeption not a 
rule. 
 
On other points discussed, I think that requiring a reduced penetration 
on a martial artist defined as 'normal' is fine, but the limitation is 
applied to the 'power', rather than free, so you get the few points 
back. It is a perfect idea for those that do the HA martial arts rather 
than the standard style as well. 
 
--  
-Mhoram 
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 
 two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:18:01 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 10 
 
At 12:07 AM 10/30/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
><snip> 
>>>AS a long-time student of psycology, phisiology, neurology and most 
>important- 
>>>the SCIENTIFIC METHOD, i am confident than any other genuinely 
>educated and up-to-date student (as opposed to hidebound and 
>out-of-date pet theory proponent)will recognise 
>>>the objection made to the rat's original statement that studies of 
>stroke victims 
>>>support his original point. 
> 
> 
>As a long-time student of physiology, I would at least expect you to 
>know how to spell it. Please do not try to claim expertise in a field 
>you cannot even spell. 
 
   Pardon the nitpicking (I'm only skimming this topic at present), but 
Michael did correctly spell "physiology."  It's his "psychology" that's 
screwed up.  ;-] 
   BTW Michael, it's spelled "grand mal epileptic."  "Grand mal" is taken 
from the French, where I gather (perhaps incorrectly) a lot of early 
studies were done on epilepsy. 
   And I also happen to know that a large amount of what we do know about 
the human body (not just the brain) has come from studying what happens 
when it doesn't do what it's supposed to do. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:21:30 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: STR + HKA, Adv & Lim 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 04:50 PM 10/29/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
> Conquest, alien conquistidor brick, had a Undanium saber that 
>does some nasty damage (1d6 KA [penetrating, armor piercing; OAF]). 
> He has a 60 STR. 
> He does 2d6 KA penetrating, armor piercing... 
> ...or am I wrong. 
 
   You are correct, sir! 
   Captain Spith has the only caveat explained perfectly. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 97 13:36:48 GMT 
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk 
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness) 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists.... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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There was, some while ago a challenge laid on hte list for a clean fight  
between a brick and a martial artist. I had agreed to be referee, Vance  
Scott was to design and fight the brick, Wayne Shaw to design and fight the  
martial artist. We had sorted out the ground rules and everything but Wayne  
had problems with his mail and it just seemed never to get done. Perhaps the  
contest should be re-established, conducted off list and the results posted  
back. We were planning to perhaps have several sets of ground rules or rule  
variants to see what differences they would make to the contest. 
 
Vance?? Wayne?? Anyone?? 
 
 
Stephen 
 
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:49:23 -0600 (CST) 
Subject: Setting a power level and making sure the PC is 3D 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> writes:  
 
> Then they get one of a variety of power packs. At random (I will pause here 
> whilst you all gasp) 
............. 
> will take the time to write it up. Right now they are all just trying to 
> figure out how thier powers work! 
>  
I'd like to see some of these power packs.  I'm thinking about starting a 
game where the players don't have full control over their power selection. 
 
Curt  
  
 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:54:00 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified) 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists.... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>Give me specific examples - I'll bet most of them involve the MA using 
>>something other than just plain punches and kicks. 
 
>The example that pops into my mind is a battle between Mantis and Wonderman 
>in an OLD Avengers. One of the most telling attacks was a kick that stunned 
>him. It did strike him in the sternum and knocked the wind out of him.  It 
>looked like  straight forward attack that did enough to stun him. Of course, 
>it could be argused that it was a use of Find Weakness, an armor peircing 
>strike, weird looking NND strike ( alien martial art, after all).  
 
Indeed. But we're talking Mantis here - the woman who became the Celestial 
Madonna. Later on, in Silver Surfer, she went round and round with Drax the 
Destroyer, and even then she was fairly ineffective - though she did manage 
to distract him for quite some time (Even the Surfer would have trouble 
tromping on Drax). And that's _after_ she was the Celestial Madonna. 
 
Granted, Stunning Wonderman is fairly impressive, but I'd classify Mantis in 
the 'super' category of MAs more than anything else. Anybody got ideas on 
what early 'normal' type MA (Shang-Chi, Daredevil, early Moon Knight, 
Mockingbird, Batman, Robin, etc) pulled off vs. Brick types? 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"You know, I feel pretty good." 
"Yeah, me too. I've got a real positive attitude." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:54:04 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified) 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists...... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>     Characters, regardless of concepts of Sf/x are limited to doing 
>certain ammounts of damage, as well as having certain limits on 
>the active costs of powers. 
>     In an 'average' four color Champions game, with the 'average' 
>limitations on active points and such, how much damage can a MA 
>dish out? 
 
If by 'and such' you include DC, MAs are limited to the same as everybody 
else - commonly 12 dice of normal damage for starters. 
 
>     In an 'average' Hero system heroic game, with the 'average' 
>limitations on active points and such, how much damage can a MA 
>dish out?  (...without weapons) 
 
Probably around 8DC. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"You know, I feel pretty good." 
"Yeah, me too. I've got a real positive attitude." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
X-Sender: wga@pop.cwru.edu 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:14:17 -0500 
From: Will Austin <wga@po.cwru.edu> 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists.... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>Indeed. But we're talking Mantis here - the woman who became the Celestial 
>Madonna.  
 
	And before this, she was trained by the Priests of Pama, who essentially 
were Kree martial artists (and the Kree are generally stronger than 
Terrans. . .) 
 
 
 
 
 
============================================================================ 
 
Nomad 
wga@po.cwru.edu 
myrtth@geocities.com 
 
"Men do not care how nobly they live, but only how long; although it is 
within the reach of every  
man to live nobly, but within no man's power to live long." 
							--Seneca	 
============================================================================ 
 
X-Sender: avatar@pop-gw.homeshopping.com.br 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:00:04 -0300 
From: "Rafael Sant'Anna Meyer" <avatar@br.homeshopping.com.br> 
Subject: Tangent PbeM 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
	Hi, 
 
	I am open a Tangent PBEM (or PBPOWWOW or ICQ if everybody have this 
programs). 
 
	A brief information about the Universe for who didn't read the comics.  
 
	At Cuban Missiles crisis in  60's the Pres Kennidy made a big mistake:send 
some nukes to blow out Fidel's Reds and show how the America act in a crisis. 
 
	At this moment a hero appear:the 1st Atom. He tried stop that Nuclear 
insanity but he there was to many nukes. After this incident the southest 
state of US is Georgia. Where was Florida now is a strange part of the 
ocean full of mutant lifeforms called Sea Devils (mutated anthropormophic 
fishes).  
 
	At the 60's the US govern created the ultimate democracy platoon to clean 
all kind of communist menace at any democratic nation, the Steel men. They 
fought at Praga's Spring and won. Their sucess was big enought to elect a 
Steel man for president. 
 
	Behind the scenes there are a secret society called Nightwing. Created by 
Vandal Savage at 1700's the Nightwing control all America by Sorcery (White 
or Black),blackmails or by making some dirty works. After the American 
Idependence they split in 2 branchs. The American was a agent of the world 
change and the European (Meridian) fought against the monarchy fall. Now 
the Nightwing is the most secret federal agency. Even the President don't 
know about them. They have security clearance level 4. And their leaders 
have security clearance level Alpha. 
 
	Now it 1997 and this is the World Situation: 
 
	-The Atom I grandson made his debut The atom III is the hero#1 of america. 
The third generation of the Heroes is a kind of hero who nobody can doubt 
of his loyalty. 
 
	-Lia "The Flash" Nelson is starring the newest holo with Amazing Special 
effects technology developted by herself. This 16 y.o. is the most hunted 
celebrity of America.  
 
	-The chaosbringer Joker is the one-woman revolution. Some more fanatical 
followers of her filosophy (the  life is a big joke and the world how we 
know is the worst gag of the reality) is growing among the College 
students. Her terrorism acts always is followed of a maniacal laught. She 
fight the sistem with pratical Jokes and using media. 
 
	-Some persons told about how the world will be destroyed. They 
self-proclaimed came from the future. The press call them Doom Patrol. The 
1st prophecy happened. A soviet space shuttle was destroyed before its take 
off. 
 
	 
	The role of characters: 
 
	The characters must be a Tangent version of a DC Universe character. The 
forbidden heros (or villains) are:Lex Luthor,Batman,Superman,Aquaman,Green 
LAntern,Wildcat, and all cited above. 
	 
	They'll be members of Nightwing organization. 
 
	Data about the campgain: 
 
	-Base 150 + 150 from disads. 
	-No VPPs. 
	-No Alien origns. 
	-The tecnology is 10 years more advanced than ours. Think a Cyberpunk 
(without to many implants) theme with Supers and other freaks. 
	-Shapeshifters,Spellcasters,Assassins 
	-NO CASUAL KILLER or TRIGGERHAPPY! 
 
	Normal Technology cost no point. Implants are a -1/2 limitation.  
 
	Power Armor is a -1 Limitation and gain 1 level of Density Increase per 10 
active points. (New Power for Power Armors:Density Decrease - cost 15 
points per level. Halves the weight per level).  
 
	Netrunners are accept. 
 
	Packages accepts: 
 
	Wizards (from FH) 
	Any military 
	Any from Cyberhero 
 
	Nightwing package (obrigatory) (0 Points) 
	Nightwing membership 
	Federal Police Powers 
	FAM:Light Weapons 	 
	+1 OCV a kind of weapon 
	FAM:a kind of area of action (magic,dirty operations or Nightwing secrets) 
	Choice 3:Bribing,Bureaucratics,Combat Driving / Piloting , Conversation, 
Deduction, Shadowing, Streetwise, KS:Magic,Shapeshift control or Criminology) 
 
	Disads: 
	Watched by Nightwing 11- 
	Secret Nightwing operations (11-) 
	Reputation  
	DF:Nightwing 
	Hunted by Meridian,11- 
 
 
	More details e-mail me. 
 
	4 Slots only. 
Eletric Avatar 
avatar@br.homeshopping.com.br 
eletric_avatar@hotmail.com 
UIN:3291380 
 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:07:06 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net 
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists.... 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:44 AM 10/30/97 -0800, Captain Spith wrote: 
>Kim Foster wrote: 
>>  
>> >Doors are only as strong as their locks and hinges - meaning, not very, for 
>> >most doors. My point is, there _are_ limits to what a 'normal' human fist or 
>> >foot can do - just like Dark Champs puts a limit on what a 'normal' bladed 
>> >weapon can do. I'm not saying that making all standard damage martial arts 
>> >strikes 'Reduced Penetration' is a perfect solution, but it does prevent the 
>> >kind of wierdness that allows that boxer to tear off some poor normal's head 
>> >with one punch (an exagguration, to be sure, but not by much) or to put his 
>> >fist through steel plate (DEF 7, and an 8D6 punch is nowhere near out of 
>> >reach for a boxer). 
>> > 
>>  
>> This solution just seems to strike as as unfair. It arbitrarily limits 
>> concept that is valid just by sfx alone? What "compensation" does the player 
>> who wants to play a martial artist get in return? The Brick gets high 
>> defenses and non retricted damage, Energy projectors get no damage limits, 
>> range and (An assumption, I know) the ability to get things like force 
>> feilds for defense. This seems to limit MAs to being effective mainly aginst 
>> agenst and others MAs. As someone pointed out before, there have been cases 
>> of "non powered" MA taking down Bricks directly or at least proving equal to 
>> them. 
> 
>   I think that what is being argued here, anymore, is semantics.  If a 
>player wants to play a 'realistic' Martial Artist, then the character 
>will be generally outclassed by classically built Super-Heroes.  By 
>definition.  If a player wants to play a 30 DEX, 5 SPD character with a 
>Martial Arts package containing a lot of extra DCs, then (s)he may call 
>it what (s)he likes, but it would not be a 'realistic' Martial Artist. 
 
Good point 
 
>   I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that all 
>martial arts packages should be 'reigned in', but rather to more closely 
>simulate a 'normal human' martial art, some alterations to the existing 
>rules may be in order.  On the other hand, i think that playing a 
>"super-martial artist" falls outside the boundaries of this thread. 
>   Besides, I defy you to find any GM who actually allows Bricks or 
>Energy Projectors to have 'Non-Restricted Damage' in his/her games.  
>Alright, there're certainly some somewhere, but certainly not commonly. 
> 
 
What I meant by "unrestricted" was that there are no limits you "have" to 
take due to concept. Like  ruling brick character cannot have a starting dex 
higher than 15 or something like that.  
 
 
 
I know violence doesn't solve all problems... 
	But it sure feels good! 
		Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Black Hole 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 30 Oct 1997 12:09:24 -0500 
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>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> If you wish to believe that, fine. However, I submit that virtually 
F> everything in your life which you believe has far less proof than what 
F> scientists have to show that C as used in E=MC^2 is the speed of 
F> light. 
 
Just to be pedantic on a few counts... 
 
1. the equation is "e=mc^2".  case matters. 
 
2. "c" is the speed of light in a vacuum.  It has been measured. 
 
3. 99% is far from being "close enough".  Tack on about ten 9s after the 
   decimal and you begin to approach "close enough". 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Black Hole 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 30 Oct 1997 12:28:09 -0500 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
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>>>>> "Rat" == Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: 
 
Rat> 2. "c" is the speed of light in a vacuum.  It has been measured. 
 
Hmmm... I should probably have mentioned how this can be. 
 
Simple: set up a transmitter and a receiver some accurately measured 
distance appart (d).  Put accurate clocks on both.  At a predetermined 
time, the transmitter emits a signal.  Measure time between between 
emission and reception (t).  speed = d/t. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists.... 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Date: 30 Oct 1997 12:37:14 -0500 
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>>>>> "KF" == Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> writes: 
 
KF> What I meant by "unrestricted" was that there are no limits you "have" 
KF> to take due to concept. Like ruling brick character cannot have a 
KF> starting dex higher than 15 or something like that. 
 
Or that Speedsters need to have a 33 DEX/7 Speed. :) 
 
Seriously, this is what makes a point-based system shine.  If it is 
reasonably balanced -- which Champions for the most part is -- then yes, 
you can make a 250-point brick with a 23 Dexterity.  But to achieve that he 
is going to be deficient in other "brick-like" areas.  Those weaknesses 
will (or at least should) be exploited. 
 
This is apart from common sense.  A "superior normal" like the Batman is 
not going to have a 30 Strength, 26 Dexterity, and 6 Speed.  He may have 
the points to do it, but those numbers are not in the "superior normal" 
range. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should 
                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. 
 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 97 19:07:18  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: The Archer Returns!!! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:08:25 -0500 (EST), ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
 
>Hi again, 
>	The ever-wandering Archer has decided it is time for him to 
>train with the master bowman Akaran.  After multiple tests and many 
>days of negoiation, Archer's persistance pays off. 
>	He will now learn the eternally difficult art of arrow 
>snatching from master bowman Akaran... 
>	Missile Deflection and Reflection (costs END) is the 
>Power of choice.  Archer will be trained so he may Deflect 
>thrown missiles and projectiles. 
>	He will also be able to snare arrows in mid-flight, at which 
>point he may drop them, hold them, or send them back (using his OAF 
>Bow). 
>	The riddle of the day: How much of a Limitation (Partial 
>Limitation, applied to the Reflection part) would 'Arrows only' 
>be on the 'Reflect attacks back at any target' be? 
>	...and could archer use this ability to catch arrows 
>(recoverable charges) and replenish his own stock of dwindling 
>arrows (also recoverable charges)? 
 
Catching isn't really covered by the rules - I've have always allowed a projectile to be  
caught - if you can move your hands fast enough to deflect a projectile, then (perhaps  
with some minuses based upon the situation) you should be able to catch said  
projectile. 
 
As for using the arrows yourself, this isn't a rules issue so much as a special effect  
issue.  GM call.  I'd allow probably allow it, if you have built your bow & arrow power as  
having recoverable charges. 
 
 
>	...could he snare missiles from the air using Missile R & D 
>from adjacent hexes (assuming he had the +1/2 power advantage that 
>would allow him to deflect attacks directed at a target in an adjacent 
>hex) to replinish his stock of arrows? 
 
Same answer as above.  
 
 
>	...and the attack with the arrow does the attacker's damage 
>(2d6 K) or Archer's damage (3d6 K) when he sends it back? 
>	...and if Archer had advantages with his bow, such as 
>Increased Maxium Range or No Range Penalty, would they apply? 
 
Again, a special effect issue.  Is the fact that your arrows do more damage than the  
other guys (or do special damage, or have no range mods, etc, etc...) based upon the  
fact that you have a special bow or that you use spiffier arrows than him?  If it's a  
function of the bow, then I would probably allow the damage diffrence and the  
advantages.  If it's based upon you having spiff arrows, then I wouldn't. 
 
Subject: Re: Black Hole 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 97 14:12:53 -0500 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 10/29/97 9:31 PM 
 
>At 11:02 PM 10/26/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>and the even horizon is dependant on the assumption that light speed  
>exists as is atated in yon equasion. And nobody's even come close to  
>proving that.  
 
The Event Horizon is NOT dependant on c being the boundry.  A higher 
value for c(boundry) simply moves the Event Horizon closer to the  
center of the Hole, it requires more gravitational effect to negate  
the energy inherant in a particle accellerated fater than c(established) 
cause the particle to be unable to escape the gravometric effect. I'm 
no physicist, but that's just basic algebra... 
 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:32:11 EST 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-15,18-20 
From: dman666@juno.com (Darren B Hansen) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
On 28 Oct 1997 13:45:26 -0500 Stainless Steel Rat 
<ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "AAM" == ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> writes: 
> 
>AAM> Salutations, 
>AAM> 	Anyone care to place statstics on various types of  
>bombs... 
>AAM> Specifically, different types of thermonukes, and their after  
>effects. 
> 
>Seriously... read a book.  Strategic thermonuclear weapons are a plot 
>device. 
 
Plot device or not, it's an interesting concept to know what it can do in 
terms of game mechanics.  Obviously it's only got 1 charge, but beyond 
that it would take a little homework for me to even begin to work it out. 
 
**DMAN 
 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:39:39 EST 
Subject: Re: Thermonecular Devices 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-49,57-58,60-64 
From: dman666@juno.com (Darren B Hansen) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
On Tue, 28 Oct 1997 04:25:15 -0600 Vox Ludator! 
<ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes: 
>At 01:02 PM 10/28/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>>	Anyone care to place statstics on various types of bombs... 
>>Specifically, different types of thermonukes, and their after  
>effects. 
> 
>I know they did up nukes in one of the HERO System Almanacs, but I  
>don't own 
>'em.  Lessee ... some quick math here: 
> 
>1.      1 stick dynamite = 1/2 lb. 
>2.      Dynamite ~= 80% explosive force of TNT. 
>3.      Little Boy (aka Hiroshima) = 12.5 kilotons TNT. 
>4.      Therefore, LB =   62,500,000 sticks of dynamite. 
>5.      p. 203 indicates that x2 dynamite sticks = +2d6K. 
>6.      62,500,000 is close to 26 "x2s". 
>7.      That's 52d6, PLUS the original 5d6 for 1 stick of dynamite. 
> 
>Therefore a 12.5 kiloton thermonuclear device is worth 57d6K.  Add  
>+2d6 
>every time you double the size of the bomb.  Add "Explosive" advantage  
>(and 
>probably Area Effect: Radius, to create a killzone with a depleting  
>fringe), 
>shake well, serve with radiation suits.  "Nice" GMs (as if there was 
>anything nice about a GM who'd dump 171 DC attacks on you, heh, heh)  
>can 
>split this into two attacks, one vs. PD to represent the blast wave,  
>and one 
>vs. ED to represent the thermal pulse.  A thermonuclear explosion gets  
>2 DC 
>thermal pulse for every 3 DC of blast wave (so for little boy, figure  
>34d6 
>physical and 23d6-1 energy). 
> 
>Some might think that HERO's damage curve is too steep (that x2 should  
>equal 
>+1 DC, as it does for STR damage), in which case this would be  
>converted 
>down to 14d6-1 KA -- still enough to instantly incinerate anyone  
>within its 
>full effect even if they have tank-level armor. 
> 
>As far as after-effects, you'd want to link a big Drain vs. electronic 
>devices (EMP) and a Transform (topsoil to fallout) with the same areas  
>of 
>effect (roughly). 
> 
Don't forget that LB was a rough device, no where near as refined as 
those manufactured today.  Upgrade capabilities for a more modern device. 
 If you bomb is made by 3 Arabs in an oil drum then drop efficiency but 
increase the Radiation (dirty nukes kill--hey, all nukes kill!)  Along 
with all the initial effects you have to have something like a CON Drain 
with a continuous charge lasting about a year or so which triggers a 
lesser one when it runs out and so on for about 3 years or so, but it all 
depends on the type of device. 
 
Neutron bomb, all the death with none of the preperty damage.  Killing 
attack, area effect with invisible power effects? 
 
Science is a marvelous thing, isn't it? 
 
**DMAN 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy? 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:22:55 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Bob Greenwade 
On Thursday, October 30, 1997 5:12 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>   Pardon the nitpicking (I'm only skimming this topic at present), 
but 
>Michael did correctly spell "physiology."  It's his "psychology" 
that's 
>screwed up.  ;-] 
 
 
Nope. He misspelled both of them. I just didn't check the others. 
 
Filksinger 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:28:50 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Help with TUSV 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
   Here's a special call for help that is usually reserved for the AOL 
Message Folder and newsgroup folks. 
   I've gotten approval to write The Ultimate Super Vehicle, a book 
designed to cover everything from the Batmobile to the Zords (and a few 
things beyond, like the Argo or the Enterprise -- maybe even the Titanic). 
With a bit of luck, it'll be ready to go out sometime this coming summer. 
   I have three questions for help from you list folks: 
   1) Does anyone have any specific suggestions for improving the dogfight 
rules? 
   2) I'm including an adaptation of the Mass Combat Rules (from the 
Fantasy Hero Companion) for vehicle combat (like on Bablyon 5).  Does 
anyone have any additional rules or ideas that might be helpful? 
   3) Does anyone have any specific requests or suggestions for something 
that could or should be included in the book?  The more specific, and the 
more directly connected to vehicles, the better. 
   (Yes, anyone who gives a suggestion or idea that I actually use, or even 
inspires one, will get a mention.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:52:22 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists.... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:52 PM 10/30/97 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>Well, KK *does* have Find Weakness at godawful levels...  My brother once 
>explained that he was the main character archetype for which they wrote up 
>that Power (or Skill, now a Talent).  This could be wrong, but it's close 
>(and it fits how they got the term "Ultra slot" from "Ultraboy," also from 
>the Legion)...  But he used it PreCrisis, and PreZero Hour.  *And* he's used 
>it in the new continuity, too...  trapped in a high tech cell with one of 
>the Legionairres, he was just staring at a Force Wall (probably with high 
>levels of Lack of Weakness).  XS was rambling (as she is wont to do), but 
>realized he wasn't listening at all, and asked him what he was doing. 
>"Looking for a weak spot."  "Oh...  In a Force Field!?"  I figure, he moved 
>his Action down the Time Chart for bonuses so he wouldn't fail, and then he 
>did it several times to get, say, x1/16 Defenses...  He punched right 
>through it once the break out was under way. 
 
   Hm, using Time bonuses on Find Weakness... now, why has that never 
occurred to me before? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"Jason D. Hendricks\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 97 21:59:42  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: STR + HKA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:03:06 -0500, Jason D. Hendricks wrote: 
 
><snip> 
> 
>>I.E. 1D6 HKA and 60 STR equals MAX 2D6 HKA (cannot exceed double HKA DC) 
>> 
>>   -Capt. Spith 
>> 
> 
>Doesn't that seem a bit silly though? If a character can juggle tanks, and 
>do a whopping 12d6 (60 active points) with his normal punch, why should he 
>be limited to a mere 2d6 HKA (30 active points)? 
>That's like saying that if you tie a rock to the front of a dumptruck and 
>smash into a Brick, he would take a maximum damage of the rock x 2... 
 
No - you're being limited by the weapon. Ok, in extremis I as a GM 
might allow more, but at the cost of the focus breaking or something. 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists.... 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:09:15 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thursday, October 30, 1997 7:20 AM, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
<snip> 
>Granted, Stunning Wonderman is fairly impressive, but I'd classify 
Mantis in 
>the 'super' category of MAs more than anything else. Anybody got 
ideas on 
>what early 'normal' type MA (Shang-Chi, Daredevil, early Moon Knight, 
>Mockingbird, Batman, Robin, etc) pulled off vs. Brick types? 
 
 
In a DC/Marvel crossover, Batman managed to inflict small amounts of 
STUN to the Hulk, using nerve strikes. He obviously considered it to 
be completely pointless to simply kick him in the head. 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 97 22:15:53  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: RE: Vampires vs Water 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:54:24 -0800, Mann, Wade wrote: 
 
>	In the Hero Bestiary there are two forms of vampires.  The 
>lesser and the greater (go figure) and both of these have the 15 point 
>Physical Limitation: Cannot cross running water (Infrequently, Fully). 
> 
>	I thought this interesting because the creators made this a 
>physical limitation which would affect the vampire even if he/she/it is 
>unconscious. 
 
How so? A Physical Limitation is 'something a character CANNOT do' 
whereas a Psychological Limitation is 'something a character WILL NOT 
do'. 
 
Clearly an inability to cross water is in the former category 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: New Energy Blast Options 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:50:22 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
The Hero Games website has just added an article covering some new 
rules for Energy Blast. Most of them are possible advantages usable 
with EB. 
 
One that I intend to start using right away is the new optional rule 
covering HtH attacks. It will help considerably in reigning in this 
rather annoying power. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:08:25 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: The Archer Returns!!! 
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org" 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Hi again, 
	The ever-wandering Archer has decided it is time for him to 
train with the master bowman Akaran.  After multiple tests and many 
days of negoiation, Archer's persistance pays off. 
	He will now learn the eternally difficult art of arrow 
snatching from master bowman Akaran... 
	Missile Deflection and Reflection (costs END) is the 
Power of choice.  Archer will be trained so he may Deflect 
thrown missiles and projectiles. 
	He will also be able to snare arrows in mid-flight, at which 
point he may drop them, hold them, or send them back (using his OAF 
Bow). 
	The riddle of the day: How much of a Limitation (Partial 
Limitation, applied to the Reflection part) would 'Arrows only' 
be on the 'Reflect attacks back at any target' be? 
	...and could archer use this ability to catch arrows 
(recoverable charges) and replenish his own stock of dwindling 
arrows (also recoverable charges)? 
	...could he snare missiles from the air using Missile R & D 
from adjacent hexes (assuming he had the +1/2 power advantage that 
would allow him to deflect attacks directed at a target in an adjacent 
hex) to replinish his stock of 
 arrows? 
	...and the attack with the arrow does the attacker's damage 
(2d6 K) or Archer's damage (3d6 K) when he sends it back? 
	...and if Archer had advantages with his bow, such as 
Increased Maxium Range or No Range Penalty, would they apply? 
 
	Again, your kind and most gracious input would be welcomed 
as to how I may unravel this egnima. 
 
				-fwip- *swipe* _-TWANG!-_ 'YEOWW!!!', 
					Jason Sullivan 
 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 97 23:47:18  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists.... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 30 Oct 1997 23:52:09 -0800, Mike Lehmann wrote: 
 
> -=> Quoting John and Ron Prins to Mike Lehmann <=- 
 
>A friend of mine had a DC-Marvel crossover where Batman was fighting the  
>Hulk. I seem to recall that Batman both boxed the Hulk's ears and  
>drop-kicked him in the stomach, knocking the wind out of him. Granted,  
>both would be considered non-standard moves (Flash vs. Hearing and NND)  
>by many people, but it did at least show he could hold his own against  
>the Green Goliath. 
 
So long as the fight doesn't last real long. 
 
 
 
 
-=>John D. 
 
 
===================================================== 
Well, I finally broke down and started building a web page of all 
of the Hero nonsense I've been writing.  Here it is.  Have fun! 
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/6982/index.html 
 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:48:44 -0500 (EST) 
From: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
	Unless this is stepping on the toes of a "Ultimate Battlesuit" 
project, you may wish to discuss representing a battlesuit using Vehicle 
rules.  It's only a small step from there to "Giant Robot"-type vehicles. 
 
	          William K. Bushway, wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu 
	          http://Mason.GMU.edu/~wbushway/index.html 
	   "I'm betting that I'm just abnormal enough to survive." 
		    -The Tick, The Tick Vs.The Breadmaster 
 
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com> 
Subject: RE: Non-Stereotypical Minority Supers 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 20:03:20 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> At 09:14 PM 10/27/97 -0500, Rick Ryker wrote: 
> >> >Germans called themselves Allemagne (sp) which meant "All the 
> People" 
> >>  
> >>    Does that mean that Hitler proved Lincoln wrong by fooling All 
> the 
> >> People all of the time? 
> >>    (Sorry; arguably bad taste there.  I just couldn't resist the 
> pun.) 
> >>  
> >Ouch. 
> > 
> >Actually, many Germans were not fooled by Hitler. 
> >They also figured he'd just go away, eventually. 
>  
>    Oh yeah, I know that.  In fact, both my picture of it and yours are 
> gross oversimplifications of what actually was going on. 
>    I just couldn't think of anyone else to use for that horrible pun. 
>  
> >(After all.  Many european countries have endured bad monarchs. 
> >And that's all a military dictator really is. 
> >And that's how many monarchies got started.) 
>  
>    Hmmmm... anyone want to start a propaganda war against Joseph 
> Otanga? 
>    Any ideas for such a scenario? 
>    (Just to bring this back to something Champions related.) 
>  
> >Unfortunately, he took many, many people with him before he went. 
>  
>    Yep, and far too many based on their religious belief. 
>  
Too true.  But, many people often overlook the millions of non-Jewish 
Eastern Europeans who also died in his concentration camps,  
simply because they too were of "inferior" races. 
 
It's amazing how many cultural and religious groups can only focus 
on how their own group was unfairly treated in past history, 
but are intolerant of other groups demanding recognition as well. 
 
-RICK 
 
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com> 
Subject: RE: UAO NND 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 20:17:19 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> > On Monday, October 27, 1997 5:58 PM, Rick Ryker wrote: 
> >  
> > <snip> 
> > > 
> > >On the other hand, you would be dead well before getting within 
> light 
> > >years 
> > >of a black hole due to the gravity differential between your head 
> and 
> > >your feet. 
> >  
> > No. 
> >  
> > A black hole with the mass of the sun has the same gravitational 
> > effect at a distance as the sun. If the sun were to be suddenly 
> > replaced by a black hole the same mass as the sun, the Earth's orbit 
> > wouldn't change at all. 
> >  
> > A black hole's power comes from approaching it's center of mass too 
> > close. If you are the same distance from the gravitational center of 
> a 
> > black hole the size of the sun as the radius of the sun, then you 
> only 
> > experience the gravity of the sun. However, the black hole is much, 
> > much smaller than the sun. As you get closer and closer to its 
> center 
> > of mass (far inside the surface of the sun, where the mass overhead 
> > would counteract the increase in gravity caused by your approaching 
> > the center of gravity), the gravity becomes greater and greater, 
> until 
> > it becomes impossible for you to escape, you pass the event horizon, 
> > and you disappear forever. 
> >  
> > A black hole so large it could generate 200g at a distance of light 
> > years is so large that the tidal forces are negligible. The smaller 
> > the black hole, the greater the tidal forces. Really, _really_, 
> REALLY 
> > large black holes have no measurable tidal forces at all. 
> >  
> > >Imagine X minus one hundred Gs pulling on you feet and X minus two 
> > >hundred Gs 
> > >pulling on your head.  You would be literally pulled to pieces. 
> > >(Waaaayyyy before you get the chance to be squashed.) 
> >  
> > True, if the black hole is small enough. The smaller the black hole, 
> > the greater the difference in force being applied near its surface 
> and 
> > the force a few feet away. An Earth mass black hole would rip you 
> > apart. A sun mass black hole would rip you apart. A black hole that 
> > could exert 200g at distances of light-years wouldn't hurt you by 
> > tidal forces at all. 
> >  
> > You might want to do the math after all. 
> >  
> > Filksinger 
>  
> 	Lets be kind and assume he was being dramatic. 
>  
Your offer of kindness is appreciated but not necessary. 
If, as you say, the sun were to be replaced with a black hole of exactly 
equal size, then we would all die anyway due to lack of heat and light. 
Also, unlike our sun, which is constantly losing mass due to the radiant 
energy which it constantly dissipates, a black hole sucks in heat and 
light. 
All heat and all light.  (And the few billion stray neutrons or two.) 
Increased energy equates to increased mass in a black hole. 
 
Granted, a black hole the mass of the sun would be very very small. 
But even if it only had the mass of a human (100 kg in Champions terms), 
the earth would still get sucked in at this distance, and so would you. 
If the black hole were far enough away to only exert a force of 200 
grams 
(which is still a huge force at stellar distances), then earth would 
have 
a very limited existence left. 
 
Now, getting back to a mass that would exert the TK forces we were 
talking about, a true black hole does not have self immunity to its own 
gravity (this is why a "failed" black hole is a white dwarf or neutron 
star); 
and a black hole with the mass of a normal human would still 
be a danger to the entire earth. 
(A black hole with the volume of a human, well, it would do orders of 
magnitude more.) 
 
-RICK 
 
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com> 
Subject: RE: Help with TUSV 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 20:34:42 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>    Here's a special call for help that is usually reserved for the AOL 
> Message Folder and newsgroup folks. 
>    I've gotten approval to write The Ultimate Super Vehicle, a book 
> designed to cover everything from the Batmobile to the Zords (and a 
> few 
> things beyond, like the Argo or the Enterprise -- maybe even the 
> Titanic). 
> With a bit of luck, it'll be ready to go out sometime this coming 
> summer. 
>    I have three questions for help from you list folks: 
>    1) Does anyone have any specific suggestions for improving the 
> dogfight 
> rules? 
>    2) I'm including an adaptation of the Mass Combat Rules (from the 
> Fantasy Hero Companion) for vehicle combat (like on Bablyon 5).  Does 
> anyone have any additional rules or ideas that might be helpful? 
>    3) Does anyone have any specific requests or suggestions for 
> something 
> that could or should be included in the book?  The more specific, and 
> the 
> more directly connected to vehicles, the better. 
>    (Yes, anyone who gives a suggestion or idea that I actually use, or 
> even 
> inspires one, will get a mention.) 
>  
Well, start but scrounging up an old copy of AutoDuel/Champions. 
It was a collaborative effort between HERO and Steve Jackson Games. 
 
Then throw in some of the rules from Robot Warriors. 
 
These might offer a good jumping off point for your book. 
 
That will be two cents, please. 
 
-RICK 
 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:41:57 -0800 
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger) 
Subject: Re: The USV project 
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
      
     One thing that should definitely be mentioned is vehicles with  
     the ability to transform from one type of vehicle to another,  
     like a car to a jet or a giant robot.  
      
     And this is just one small step from vehicles which combine to  
     form larger, more powerful vehicles (like the Phoenix on Battle  
     of the Planets.) 
      
     Richard  
 
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com> 
Subject: RE: Supression/Darkness question 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:14:34 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> At 01:37 AM 10/29/97 -0500, boaters@ix.netcom.com wrote: 
> >The campaign is a fantasy campaign and magic is very widespread.  One 
> of 
> >the characters is a young warrior who is learning as he is going.  He 
> >has been the victim of a silence spell one to many times and wishes 
> to 
> >get a ring to protect himself from it. 
> >The problem is this, the spell is Darkness with as many inches as the 
> >mage has.  (differs from mage to mage.) 
>  
> From: 	Bob Greenwade[SMTP:bob.greenwade@klock.com] 
>  
>    I'd build it as Suppress Darkness, 0 END Persistent, IIF, 
> Independent, 
> Only vs Hearing (-1).  Always On would be at your option. 
>  
> From: 	Stainless Steel Rat[SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net] 
>  
> Dspell is the way to go.  It is the only power that can be used 
> offensively 
> in a defensive capacity.  To wit, when a silence spell is cast, the 
> owner 
> of the ring may immediately, as a defensive action, attempt to dispell 
> the 
> incoming attack.  Suppress can only be used after an incoming attack 
> has 
> had its effect. 
>  
I would have to agree with Bob on this one, and use the AO advantage. 
The young warrior wants a magic ring that will protect him 
automatically. 
The most common magic rings do their thing without conscious control. 
He shouldn't have to turn it on to make it work; 
and taking as dispell with a trigger can be cumbersome. 
Furthermore, dispell is an all or nothing (counter-) attack. 
And it implies that the victim knows that he has been hit with a silence 
attack. 
I assume that the young warrior would prefer to reduce the affect such 
an 
attack has on him all the time, rather than take the full attack if his 
magic ring 
is not powerful enough (didn't roll high enough). 
 
-RICK 
 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:15:25 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified) 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: The Archer Returns!!! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>	Missile Deflection and Reflection (costs END) is the 
>Power of choice.  Archer will be trained so he may Deflect 
>thrown missiles and projectiles. 
>	He will also be able to snare arrows in mid-flight, at which 
>point he may drop them, hold them, or send them back (using his OAF 
>Bow). 
>	The riddle of the day: How much of a Limitation (Partial 
>Limitation, applied to the Reflection part) would 'Arrows only' 
>be on the 'Reflect attacks back at any target' be? 
 
I'd say -1/2 tops. Arrows would represent probably the most common form of 
muscle-powered projectile Archer would face. Though I'd think this whole 
Reflection thing is unnecessary - most GMs would allow you to fire back that 
arrow (with your bow, of course) on your next phase, without requiring 
Reflection - as your SFX and your attacker's SFX neatly co-incide.. 
Reflected thrown stuff (catch the knife, throw back in the same motion) 
makes a lot more sense than catching an arrow, reversing it, stringing it, 
pulling back, aiming, and firing, all as a 1/2 phase action. But you can 
certainly do that if you like... 
 
>	...and could archer use this ability to catch arrows 
>(recoverable charges) and replenish his own stock of dwindling 
>arrows (also recoverable charges)? 
 
Certainly, again, it's a meeting of SFX between you and the attacker. 
 
>	...could he snare missiles from the air using Missile R & D 
>from adjacent hexes (assuming he had the +1/2 power advantage that 
>would allow him to deflect attacks directed at a target in an adjacent 
>hex) to replinish his stock of 
> arrows? 
 
Yup, if he bought the Adjacent advantage for his Missile Deflection. 
 
>	...and the attack with the arrow does the attacker's damage 
>(2d6 K) or Archer's damage (3d6 K) when he sends it back? 
 
Aha, the attacker's damage, probably. You're using different arrows, after all. 
 
>	...and if Archer had advantages with his bow, such as 
>Increased Maxium Range or No Range Penalty, would they apply? 
 
I'd say no, as that would be more of an arrow thing (better stabilized, 
better balanced, etc.). 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"You know, I feel pretty good." 
"Yeah, me too. I've got a real positive attitude." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 23:58:26 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re:  Re: Comic book martial artists.... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 10/30/97 7:36:59 AM, smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk wrote: 
>Perhaps the  
>contest should be re-established, conducted off list and the results posted  
>back. We were planning to perhaps have several sets of ground rules or rule  
>variants to see what differences they would make to the contest. 
>Vance?? Wayne?? Anyone?? 
 
WE WILL WAGER THIRTY THOUSAND QUATLOOS ON THE BRICK. 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 23:59:16 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re:  Re: Comic book martial artists.... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 10/30/97 7:36:59 AM, smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk wrote: 
>Perhaps the  
>contest should be re-established, conducted off list and the results posted  
>back. We were planning to perhaps have several sets of ground rules or rule  
>variants to see what differences they would make to the contest. 
>Vance?? Wayne?? Anyone?? 
 
WE WILL WAGER THIRTY THOUSAND QUATLOOS ON THE BRICK. 
 
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com> 
Subject: RE: The Archer Returns!!! 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 00:52:45 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> >	...and if Archer had advantages with his bow, such as 
> >Increased Maxium Range or No Range Penalty, would they apply? 
>  
> I'd say no, as that would be more of an arrow thing (better 
> stabilized, 
> better balanced, etc.). 
>  
Actually, I'd say yes.  As long as these advantages were bought with the 
bow as the focii and with the limitation "only to add to arrows". 
This is the way most of the example bowmen I've seen were constructed. 
(Included examples put out by HERO.) 
 
As far as the damage the arrows would do, I have to agree with John D. 
Prins. 
Archer would do the damage of the captured arrows when he fires one. 
Unless the PC bought his arrow VPP with the +2 advantage "Change 
Anytime", 
they don't magically change properties just because he caught one in 
midair. 
 
I'm assuming that you bought your arrows as a VPP, with limitations of 
universal breakable OAF, charges, no range, limited SFX (gadgets), 
takes a skill roll to change (Gadgeteering), only changeable in a lab, 
etc. 
 
And that you put the Ranged advantage(s) into your bow with the 
limitations 
universal breakable OAF, only for use with giving Range to arrow powers, 
requires skill to use (Archery), etc. 
Even without the skill, someone could still steal it from you and use it 
on you; 
he would just have an OCV penalty for using it as a bow. 
 
Putting the Range advantage(s) into the bow means buying the difference 
in active points that you would have had to put into the advantage if 
the 
powers were all in one focii instead of two. 
Also, since you limited you arrows to no range, the bow would have to 
buy the 
At Range advantage before adding any other Range modifying advantage(s). 
 
Optionally, the bow could also give the bowman levels for use with OCV 
or Range Mods; but, then I would make the bow mystical and unbreakable. 
 
You would treat captured/stolen arrows as if they were extra charge(s) 
in your VPP, but the powers would be what your opponent put into them. 
After all, he is the one who did the alterations on the arrows in his 
lab. 
Your opponent lost a charge, and you just get to shoot them. 
 
By the way, most GMs will allow you to use focii acquired this way 
until the end of the current "run".  But if the player wants his PC 
to keep them on a more permanent basis, his PC will have to pay for 
them. 
 
Deflection would probably be bought as a power in the bow (as an OAF), 
with the limitation "only thrown or muscle powered objects". 
The Archer would then use the bow to deflect incoming arrows. 
(And knives, and rocks, and kicks, and punches, and bad jokes, and....) 
 
Of course, if the bow is a breakable focus, the GM could rule that 
deflecting exceptionally massive objects could cause damage to the bow. 
(Although this goes against the Deflection power's description.) 
 
As far as reflection goes, 
I would have a hard time as a GM allowing this power at all for an 
archer. 
The special effects (SFX) just doesn't seem to fit. 
According to the power description for Reflection, 
the Archer would grab, load, and return fire all in the same phase. 
 
-RICK 
 
From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann) 
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 23:52:09 -0800 
Organization: Terminal BBS  (403)327-9731 
Subject: Comic book martial artists.... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 -=> Quoting John and Ron Prins to Mike Lehmann <=- 
 
 JaRP> Granted, Stunning Wonderman is fairly impressive, but I'd classify 
 JaRP> Mantis in the 'super' category of MAs more than anything else. Anybody 
 JaRP> got ideas on what early 'normal' type MA (Shang-Chi, Daredevil, early 
 JaRP> Moon Knight, Mockingbird, Batman, Robin, etc) pulled off vs. Brick 
 JaRP> types?  
 
A friend of mine had a DC-Marvel crossover where Batman was fighting the  
Hulk. I seem to recall that Batman both boxed the Hulk's ears and  
drop-kicked him in the stomach, knocking the wind out of him. Granted,  
both would be considered non-standard moves (Flash vs. Hearing and NND)  
by many people, but it did at least show he could hold his own against  
the Green Goliath. 
 
mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net - - - - - Justice Krewe / Enigma Watch GM 
- - - - - -  http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html - - - - - - 
 
... The telephone will ring while you're in the bathroom. 
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR] 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Internet: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net  <<<<<<<<<<< 
The TERMINAL BBS                                            Fidonet; 1:358/17 
Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada                                          1:358/18 
This message was processed by NetXpres                          (403)327-9741 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 03:58:41 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Cc: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:02 AM 10/31/97 -0800, Duane Morris wrote: 
>BTW: Battle of the Planets was a **REALLY** bad cartoon that appeared 
>briefly back in 82-83 timeframe...  If you can remember the phrase 
>"G-Force" or the name "Zoltar" <sp??> then you're heading in the right 
>direction.... <sigh> 
 
To throw on a little more detail ... "BotP" was a hackjob import of the 
Japanese show "Gatchaman" produced by Sandy Frank (the same man that brought 
us Gamera).  Years later, Sandy Frank's spiritual descendant Saban (of Power 
Rangers fame) made his own hackjob import of the exact same show, which can 
now be seen on some channels as "Eagle Riders". 
 
>And here I thought that I had been able to completely forget about that 
>show... (:(: 
 
Cartoons stick with you forever. :]  I still remember the ultra-cheese 
"Flintstone Cops/Schmoo/Thing" cartoon -- now there's some psychological 
scarring material. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Files corrupt; absolute files corrupt absolutely.               | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: UAO NND 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 02:12:39 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thursday, October 30, 1997 5:55 PM, Rick Ryker wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>Your offer of kindness is appreciated but not necessary. 
>If, as you say, the sun were to be replaced with a black hole of 
exactly 
>equal size, then we would all die anyway due to lack of heat and 
light. 
 
True. I said the _orbit_ would be unaffected. 
 
>Also, unlike our sun, which is constantly losing mass due to the 
radiant 
>energy which it constantly dissipates, a black hole sucks in heat and 
>light. 
 
The energy absorbed by a black hole that took the place of the sun 
would be miniscule, at least under normal circumstances. It would 
receive far, far, less radiation than the sun puts out, and no 
measurable change in the sun's gravity has ever occured, nor is it 
expected. 
 
>All heat and all light.  (And the few billion stray neutrons or two.) 
>Increased energy equates to increased mass in a black hole. 
 
A very, very small increase, so long as nothing unusual fell in, like 
a stray planet. 
 
>Granted, a black hole the mass of the sun would be very very small. 
>But even if it only had the mass of a human (100 kg in Champions 
terms), 
>the earth would still get sucked in at this distance, and so would 
you. 
 
Absolutely not. A black hole with a mass of 100 kg exerts so little 
gravitational effect that it could pass directly through you, and you 
would never know. 
 
There is a misconception of what a black hole does here. A black hole 
does not "suck" things in. It's only power is gravity, and at a given 
distance, its gravity is exactly the same as a mass the same radius as 
that distance. If the black hole were to replace the Sun, the planets 
would not change their orbits in the slightest. In fact, anything 
orbiting the Sun would continue in exactly the same path as before. 
Only those things whose course would allow the Sun to suck them in 
stand any chance of being sucked in to such a black hole. 
 
>If the black hole were far enough away to only exert a force of 200 
>grams 
>(which is still a huge force at stellar distances), then earth would 
>have 
>a very limited existence left. 
 
 
I meant 200G, not 200g, as in gravities, not grams. Grams are not a 
force. 
 
>Now, getting back to a mass that would exert the TK forces we were 
>talking about, a true black hole does not have self immunity to its 
own 
>gravity (this is why a "failed" black hole is a white dwarf or 
neutron 
>star); 
>and a black hole with the mass of a normal human would still 
>be a danger to the entire earth. 
 
It would be far smaller than a proton, would fall through any material 
without measurable harm, and would eventually orbit the center of the 
earth. It's gravity would suck in tiny amounts of matter, the preasure 
would drive a little more into it. If it absorbed enough matter to 
prevent evaporation then it would, eventually, eat the Earth. But it 
would take a long time. 
 
>(A black hole with the volume of a human, well, it would do orders of 
>magnitude more.) 
> 
Of course. Such a black hole weighs far more than the Earth, it would 
mass as much as some gas giants. Even without the effects of the event 
horizon, that mass would destroy the entire Earth, causing the oceans 
to fuse and creating a small star, which would slowly cool because it 
is too small to sustain fusion. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: New Energy Blast Options 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 02:18:02 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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-----Original Message----- 
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
To: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Thursday, October 30, 1997 2:46 PM 
Subject: Re: New Energy Blast Options 
 
 
>At 02:50 PM 10/30/97 -0800, you wrote: 
>>The Hero Games website has just added an article covering some new 
>>rules for Energy Blast. Most of them are possible advantages usable 
>>with EB. 
>> 
>>One that I intend to start using right away is the new optional rule 
>>covering HtH attacks. It will help considerably in reigning in this 
>>rather annoying power. 
>> 
> 
>What is the URL? 
 
 
Sorry Two people have asked for this information already. 
 
The Hero Games website is www.herogames.com. Look under Digital Hero. 
They are all dated at the time they were added to the website, and 
these were the most recent additions. 
 
Filksinger 
 
PS: If someone doesn't have access to the web, I'll email them a text 
copy. 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:40:17 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: RE: Help with TUSV 
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Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>At 08:34 PM 10/30/97 -0500, Rick Ryker wrote: 
>>>  
>>Well, start but scrounging up an old copy of AutoDuel/Champions. 
>>It was a collaborative effort between HERO and Steve Jackson Games. 
>> 
>>Then throw in some of the rules from Robot Warriors. 
>> 
>>These might offer a good jumping off point for your book. 
>> 
>>That will be two cents, please. 
> 
>   Actually, I have a manucript almost ready, and I thought I'd turn to the 
>list for help with those two problems (Dogfighting and Mass Combat) as well 
>as further suggestions before I made it absolutely complete. 
>   Robot Warriors was my jumping off point.  For continuity, I also 
>included most of the vehicle rules from Dark Champions and An Eye For An 
>Eye, and in fact any vehicle rules I could find in published Hero stuff. 
>Then I added any ideas I could think of from movies and TV shows I'd seen 
>or comics I'd ready that seemed fitting.  And if I can locate a copy of 
>AutoDuel Champions with enough time before my 31 Dec deadline for a first 
>draft, I will definitely weave in anything I can pull out of that.  (For 
>that matter, I'm considering picking up a used copy of Champions II and 
>building an appendix out of an adaptation of those older vehicle 
>construction rules.) 
> 
I think using the previous books is a must... especially the "current" 
stuff.  The Champions II conversion thing sounds great, and seems to be what 
several other people have asked for as well.  Now, about Autoduel 
Champions...  I've also played Car Wars before, and found AC to be more 
geared towards that side of the house...  I believe (I don't have it at 
school with me; it's at home with my CW stuff) that only the characters were 
bought with points, tho, and the vehicles were bought with money (like in 
CW).  It really seemed much less like the Hero system than the Car Wars 
system grafted onto Hero.  And it probably was, as SJG was going to port 
their Car Wars game world to GURPS anyway.  In summation, I think the most 
useful thing you would get out of the book (for YOUR book, anyway) might be 
stats for vehicular weaponry, and perhaps some minor ides on turn 
mode/handling class (although that would probably muck with the manuscript 
you already had). 
Good luck with this, really, you deserve to be writing for Hero... (I mean 
that in a *good*, way...) 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:53:25 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
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David Fair wrote: 
>On 10/31/97 11:25 AM, Tim R. Gilberg (trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu) Said: 
> 
>>> So, fix the rules for normals, then let people buy a normal vehicle and 
>>> soup them up. 
>>> a 50 point charcter can't own a car and have skills. that's just silly. 
>> 
>>	Right.  For that reason, I've never charged for 'normal' vehicle 
>>with no real combat effect.  They're there for SFX.  One character had a 
>>sky blue Dodge Dart ('76, I believe).  My character had a Herley. 
> 
>Is there any reason you couldn't give everyone, say 25 "Everyman" points  
>for a personal vehicle? 
> 
Wow.  That's wonderfully simple.  And I really really like it.  But it 
raises a few questions: 
1) Are these vehicles limited to "real world" vehicles, or at least vehicles 
that the are available to the public in the game world?  (This is to prevent 
characters with a high-tech background getting a really useful flying 
vehicle or... ugh ...even an XDM vehicle for "free.") 
2) Which type of "Everyman" points are these?  The ones that may be improved 
upon (like Native Language, PS, and KS) or the ones that have to be "bought 
over" (like Stealth, Concealment, et al)?  (Thanks to Robert West for 
pointing out the difference.) 
3) I assume, then, that "unused" Everyman points for the Vehicle are lost? 
4) Would the "Everyman" Transport Familiarity automatically reflect this 
choice of vehicle?  I know that, in a Superheroic game, you don't have to 
spend points to be familiar with items you payed points for...  but these 
are "Everyman" points, after all. 
5) How would you rule that the character with average wealth has the same 
amount of "Everyman" points to spend on a vehicle as, say, the son of an 
incredibly wealthy supporter of the Shadow Conspiracy holding a puppet 
government in Slovakia who has embezzled Billions of dollars from his 
father?  (A character in my current game...) 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:57:39 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
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Tim Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>> >	Right.  For that reason, I've never charged for 'normal' vehicle 
>> >with no real combat effect.  They're there for SFX.  One character had a 
>> >sky blue Dodge Dart ('76, I believe).  My character had a Herley. 
>> 
>> Is there any reason you couldn't give everyone, say 25 "Everyman" points 
>> for a personal vehicle? 
> 
>	None, really, except for simplicity.  As there is so little real 
>effect except for RP, I just go with the standard book stats for movement 
>if necessary.  Heck, the one time I decided yo make a cool entrance with 
>my Harley, I rolled a 17 on the Combat Driving and had a brilliant wreck. 
> 
Oh, yeah, right.  The characters have to buy Combat Driving, too.  Okay... 
I think I would also see the "Power Gamers" in my group (there're one or 
two) learning *extensively* the Vehicle creation rules, to get the best 
possible vehicle for 25 points exactly (and not a single point over, unless 
that one point gave them a superior advantage, of course). 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:08:37 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
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Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>Oh, yeah. I forgot to add that I'd like to see interdimensional 
>vehicles, too (Is the Tardis a vehicle, or a base with powers?). 
> 
Um...  it's a vehicle *and* a base!  (It's a car wax *and* a dessert topping!) 
Honestly, it's difficult to write up...  I was thinking of a vehicle that 1) 
had the power to send it's occupants to its "pocket dimension" by means of 
an XDM Gate (the interior of the Tardis) and 2) had the ability to move 
itself (and therefore the Gate) to another location.  I'm not sure exactly 
how to do this, but the Tardis itself (the movement Powers) are a vehicle... 
Now, the *inside* of the Tardis is an ExtraDimensional Base... 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:08:40 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
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Alone At Midnight piped up with: 
>Two words:  Swingmobile (A vechile with swinging???) 
> 
Gah. : )  Man, you're either a lunatic or a genius.  Or both. 
Anyway, the only way I could see it being done would be a mecha ("Giant 
Robot," Bob) built with that in mind...  Giant ArachniRobo!  or somesuch. 
Dave Mattingly already brought up the SpideyMobile, ferchrissakes... 
(Clinging). 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 04:12:50 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
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Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
>    Here's a special call for help that is usually reserved for the AOL 
> Message Folder and newsgroup folks. 
>    I've gotten approval to write The Ultimate Super Vehicle, a book 
> designed to cover everything from the Batmobile to the Zords (and a few 
> things beyond, like the Argo or the Enterprise -- maybe even the Titanic). 
> With a bit of luck, it'll be ready to go out sometime this coming summer. 
>    I have three questions for help from you list folks: 
>    1) Does anyone have any specific suggestions for improving the dogfight 
> rules? 
>    2) I'm including an adaptation of the Mass Combat Rules (from the 
> Fantasy Hero Companion) for vehicle combat (like on Bablyon 5).  Does 
> anyone have any additional rules or ideas that might be helpful? 
>    3) Does anyone have any specific requests or suggestions for something 
> that could or should be included in the book?  The more specific, and the 
> more directly connected to vehicles, the better. 
 
   I would say that one thing lacking in many supplements is 
*examples*.  You should definitely include a large number of specific 
examples, such as the Batmobile (of course), The Green Hornet's car, The 
X-Men's Black Bird, the Avengers' Quinjet, the F.F.'s pogoplane (or 
whatever vehicle they have had that may be reasonably well-recognised), 
as well as several 'common' vehicle types; Geo Metro (no-frills 
compact), Nissan Sentra (standard economy) Firebird (standard phallic 
substitute), some MiniVan, some 4x4/Sports-Utility Vehicle, etc. 
 
   Also, (I don't have my book handy, so can't refresh my memory) 
concerning Dogfight rules, definitely establish Size and Speed DCV 
modifiers which (here comes the important part) can be easily translated 
to other types of objects.  Like a character flying non-combat that 
would not have a DEX-based DCV, but rather a velocity-related DCV. 
Or a baseball should have a size/speed based DCV (requiring BB players 
to have a skill and skill levels to be able to hit said small, 
high-speed object).  I realize this is going beyong vehicle stuff, but I 
think said DCV rules are important for vehicle combat, and having them, 
they should be translatable to other applications. 
   Sorry I don't have any specifics, but I'm just an Idea Man.... 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:23:11 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Re: RE: The Archer Returns!!! 
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In Response to RIck Ryker: 
        The bow was bought as a 3d6 RKA OAF (breakable), 32 recoverable 
charges, costs END.  Archer doesn't utilize any sort of trick arrows. 
        I don't understand why in the world Champions constructed 
the bow in the Ranged Weapons section of CD (4th ed.) as a 
Heavy Longbow, +1 R Mod, 2d6K, STR Min 17, _--_--_1 Shot_--_--_ recoverable!!! 
        Incoming objects (thrown weapons and projectiles) would be batted 
away with his hands while Arrows would be caught. 
        ...and as for the catch, notch, aim, fire returns-- I would agree 
it would get ridiculous after the first arrow.  I tacked on Costs END 
for that reason (fatiuge).  Perhaps a Lim that would delay the return time 
('Only on Archer's segment' or 'One arrow returnable per segment'). 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 05:14:24 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Cc: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org> 
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At 01:23 AM 10/31/97 +2, you wrote: 
> 
>>    3) Does anyone have any specific requests or suggestions for something 
>> that could or should be included in the book?  The more specific, and the 
>> more directly connected to vehicles, the better. 
> 
>Well, two concepts related to vehicles which I really liked were  
>mechas and rigging, especially mechas. If you could include some  
>notes about those, that'd be really great. Rigging is a cyberpunk  
>idea where you use VR technology to link to your vehicle, effectively  
>controlling it the same way you control your own body. That's a great  
>idea for the Ultimet Vehicle. 
 
   If by mechas you're referring to those big things that we of the Not 
Quite Middle Aged Generation call "giant robots," there's plenty there; in 
fact, the book started out as The Ultimate Giant Robot. 
   As for Rigging, you're talking about simply acting out the motions of a 
giant robot to control the vehicle, right?  How would that be modeled in 
Hero terms -- any ideas? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 05:16:21 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
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At 07:48 PM 10/30/97 -0500, William K Bushway wrote: 
> 
> Unless this is stepping on the toes of a "Ultimate Battlesuit" 
>project, you may wish to discuss representing a battlesuit using Vehicle 
>rules.  It's only a small step from there to "Giant Robot"-type vehicles. 
 
   I do have this down, at least cursorially.... 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 05:26:20 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The Archer Returns!!! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 07:07 PM 10/30/97, John Desmarais wrote: 
>On Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:08:25 -0500 (EST), ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
> 
>>Hi again, 
>> The ever-wandering Archer has decided it is time for him to 
>>train with the master bowman Akaran.  After multiple tests and many 
>>days of negoiation, Archer's persistance pays off. 
>> He will now learn the eternally difficult art of arrow 
>>snatching from master bowman Akaran... 
>> Missile Deflection and Reflection (costs END) is the 
>>Power of choice.  Archer will be trained so he may Deflect 
>>thrown missiles and projectiles. 
>> He will also be able to snare arrows in mid-flight, at which 
>>point he may drop them, hold them, or send them back (using his OAF 
>>Bow). 
>> The riddle of the day: How much of a Limitation (Partial 
>>Limitation, applied to the Reflection part) would 'Arrows only' 
>>be on the 'Reflect attacks back at any target' be? 
>> ...and could archer use this ability to catch arrows 
>>(recoverable charges) and replenish his own stock of dwindling 
>>arrows (also recoverable charges)? 
> 
>Catching isn't really covered by the rules - I've have always allowed a 
projectile to be  
>caught - if you can move your hands fast enough to deflect a projectile, 
then (perhaps  
>with some minuses based upon the situation) you should be able to catch said  
>projectile. 
> 
>As for using the arrows yourself, this isn't a rules issue so much as a 
special effect  
>issue.  GM call.  I'd allow probably allow it, if you have built your bow 
& arrow power as  
>having recoverable charges. 
 
   Perhaps, for those of us who like to build new rules structures for 
everything, the difference between shoving an arrow aside and catching it 
for your own later use can be boiled down to a new element for Missile 
Deflection.  Say, +20 points to Missile Deflection to catch an attack and 
use it later.  The cost is the same as adding Reflection; the advantage is 
that you can use the attack on anyone (not just the original attacker), but 
the limitation is that you have to wait at least one Phase to use it, and 
may only use it if your delivery system is the same (this being mostly a 
matter of special effects). 
 
>> ...could he snare missiles from the air using Missile R & D 
>>from adjacent hexes (assuming he had the +1/2 power advantage that 
>>would allow him to deflect attacks directed at a target in an adjacent 
>>hex) to replinish his stock of arrows? 
> 
>Same answer as above.  
 
   Ditto. 
 
>> ...and the attack with the arrow does the attacker's damage 
>>(2d6 K) or Archer's damage (3d6 K) when he sends it back? 
>> ...and if Archer had advantages with his bow, such as 
>>Increased Maxium Range or No Range Penalty, would they apply? 
> 
>Again, a special effect issue.  Is the fact that your arrows do more 
damage than the  
>other guys (or do special damage, or have no range mods, etc, etc...) 
based upon the  
>fact that you have a special bow or that you use spiffier arrows than him? 
 If it's a  
>function of the bow, then I would probably allow the damage diffrence and 
the  
>advantages.  If it's based upon you having spiff arrows, then I wouldn't. 
 
   On damage, I'd *generally* rule that it does the lesser of the two. 
   As for the rest, I'm with John here.  It depends on whether the 
Advantage is in the bow or in the arrows. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 06:05:21 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Non-Stereotypical Minority Supers 
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At 08:03 PM 10/30/97 -0500, Rick Ryker wrote: 
>> >Actually, many Germans were not fooled by Hitler. 
>> >They also figured he'd just go away, eventually. 
   [...] 
>> >Unfortunately, he took many, many people with him before he went. 
>>  
>>    Yep, and far too many based on their religious belief. 
>>  
>Too true.  But, many people often overlook the millions of non-Jewish 
>Eastern Europeans who also died in his concentration camps,  
>simply because they too were of "inferior" races. 
 
   Or even more simply, because they didn't go along with his violent 
neo-Teutonic religion. 
 
>It's amazing how many cultural and religious groups can only focus 
>on how their own group was unfairly treated in past history, 
>but are intolerant of other groups demanding recognition as well. 
 
   Which seems to me to be the basis for the Totems.  And, for that matter, 
IMAGE and Genocide.  I also have on file a radically afrocentric rap group 
(II Hot Boyz) and a neo-Nazi (Supremacy) who have the same mentality, and 
I'm working on an extremist gay-rights terrorist supergroup.  (These are 
all for a regional sourcebook on the Northwest; an arguably disproportional 
amount of stuff in these parts is connected in some way to politics, and 
often to demographic politics.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:29:08 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    Here's a special call for help that is usually reserved for the AOL 
> Message Folder and newsgroup folks. 
>    I've gotten approval to write The Ultimate Super Vehicle, a book 
> designed to cover everything from the Batmobile to the Zords (and a few 
> things beyond, like the Argo or the Enterprise -- maybe even the Titanic). 
> With a bit of luck, it'll be ready to go out sometime this coming summer. 
>    I have three questions for help from you list folks: 
>    1) Does anyone have any specific suggestions for improving the dogfight 
> rules? 
>    2) I'm including an adaptation of the Mass Combat Rules (from the 
> Fantasy Hero Companion) for vehicle combat (like on Bablyon 5).  Does 
> anyone have any additional rules or ideas that might be helpful? 
 
I hope your adaptation does some extensive adapting; as I recall, the Mass 
Combat Rules had some major flaws to them. (I've never actually used them, 
since I disliked them so much on reading those rules.)  
 
If you're getting into B5 style space combat, you may want to at least 
mention inertia. While a Star Wars or Star Trek style spacecraft flies 
like a plane, with engines always firing and facing the direction of 
motion, B5 or more realistic SF craft have greater maneuvering options. 
 
 
>    3) Does anyone have any specific requests or suggestions for something 
> that could or should be included in the book?  The more specific, and the 
> more directly connected to vehicles, the better. 
>    (Yes, anyone who gives a suggestion or idea that I actually use, or even 
> inspires one, will get a mention.) 
 
 
I really liked the car chase rules and tables in Eye for an Eye. (Even 
more than I disliked that book's optional combat rules.) I wouldn't mind 
seeing them repeated, expanded upon, or somehow perpetuated. 
 
Also, I'd like to see  some comprehensive vehicle lists, at the very least 
on the order of what Champions II had. It would be very useful to have a 
fairly extensive collection of various mundane vehicles from various time 
periods, including cars, aircraft, boats, etc. 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 06:42:01 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Help with TUSV 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:34 PM 10/30/97 -0500, Rick Ryker wrote: 
>>  
>Well, start but scrounging up an old copy of AutoDuel/Champions. 
>It was a collaborative effort between HERO and Steve Jackson Games. 
> 
>Then throw in some of the rules from Robot Warriors. 
> 
>These might offer a good jumping off point for your book. 
> 
>That will be two cents, please. 
 
   Actually, I have a manucript almost ready, and I thought I'd turn to the 
list for help with those two problems (Dogfighting and Mass Combat) as well 
as further suggestions before I made it absolutely complete. 
   Robot Warriors was my jumping off point.  For continuity, I also 
included most of the vehicle rules from Dark Champions and An Eye For An 
Eye, and in fact any vehicle rules I could find in published Hero stuff. 
Then I added any ideas I could think of from movies and TV shows I'd seen 
or comics I'd ready that seemed fitting.  And if I can locate a copy of 
AutoDuel Champions with enough time before my 31 Dec deadline for a first 
draft, I will definitely weave in anything I can pull out of that.  (For 
that matter, I'm considering picking up a used copy of Champions II and 
building an appendix out of an adaptation of those older vehicle 
construction rules.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:56:47 -0500 
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org> 
Subject: Help with TUSV 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>    1) Does anyone have any specific suggestions for improving the dogfight 
> rules? 
 
Not me...I've never used them.  
 
>    2) I'm including an adaptation of the Mass Combat Rules (from the 
> Fantasy Hero Companion) for vehicle combat (like on Bablyon 5).  Does 
> anyone have any additional rules or ideas that might be helpful? 
 
See above.  
 
>    3) Does anyone have any specific requests or suggestions for something 
> that could or should be included in the book?  The more specific, and the 
> more directly connected to vehicles, the better. 
 
Here I've got a few. :-) 
 
1) The vehicle rules should be an extension (a SMALL extension) of the base 
rules. Rules like "vehicle movement costs 0 END by default" shouldn't 
exist. I'd suggest using Opal's "incomplete character" rules, so that vehicles 
are characters missing certain stats.  
 
2) This probably means adding concepts like variable acceleration, 
deceleration, and turn modes (yeah, I know they are sort of already there) to 
the base HERO rules. Most of the times I see vehicles used in HERO combat, 
they see to a) accelerate too fast and b) turn too quickly. 
 
3) "Normal" vehicles need to be cheap, while "enhanced" vehicles should be 
balanced within the rules. My suggestion would be to use non-combat movement 
for normal vehicles (which can't manuever well anyway.) Also, by starting off 
with a normal character when making a vehicle, you get points for stuff like 
"inanimate", "no limbs", etc. 
 
Geoff Speare 
 
X-Sender: nezmaster@ntr.net 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:59:50 -0500 
From: Nez Master <nezmaster@ntr.net> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Though this is  asuper vehicle book, I think the base cost should be lower. 
I don't think A  volkswagon or a motorcycle  (unmodified) should cost 20 
points, and hten have to build from there to make anythign cool. Only one 
person in my group has ever succesfully used a vehicle and he was an inch 
high, so the vehicle could be carried around by other people. This made it 
come up every couple of games, which if your going to spend 50+  points on 
something, should happen. 
My original group wanted to buy motorcycles for their group, so they could 
occasionally storm in to places. (they are all former members of a biker 
gang). They found they had spent 20+ points, for something that was mostly 
special effect, and was very difficult to make part of the game more htan 
one every 10 games or so. (as part of the original premise, thy had other 
transportation and were often galavanting around the world). 
So, fix the rules for normals, then let people buy a normal vehicle and 
soup them up. 
a 50 point charcter can't own a car and have skills. that's just silly. 
 
-------------------------Nez Master-------------------- 
      Second founder of the backwards philosophy 
	       http://www.ntr.net/~nezmaster 
	    		Nothing is certain 
_______________________________________________________ 
	 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:15:39 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 04:12 AM 10/31/97 -0800, Captain Spith wrote: 
>   I would say that one thing lacking in many supplements is 
>*examples*.  You should definitely include a large number of specific 
>examples, such as the Batmobile (of course), The Green Hornet's car, The 
>X-Men's Black Bird, the Avengers' Quinjet, the F.F.'s pogoplane (or 
>whatever vehicle they have had that may be reasonably well-recognised), 
>as well as several 'common' vehicle types; Geo Metro (no-frills 
>compact), Nissan Sentra (standard economy) Firebird (standard phallic 
>substitute), some MiniVan, some 4x4/Sports-Utility Vehicle, etc. 
 
   Well, obviously, I can't include the Batmobile, Black Beauty, the 
Blackbird, the Quinjet, and the Fantasticar, for copyright reasons, but I 
am including at least one sample character for each type of vehicle I could 
think of. 
   In the manuscript as it now stands, the Slissii and the Devourer of 
Worlds from the old Robot Warriors game are being adapted (though I'm sure 
some disagree, I always thought the Slissii were kewl).  I'm also updating 
Cybercop (with her Hovercar) and Death Rider (with his motorcycle), and I 
*may* also include a vehicle laden edition of Zen Team (though I'd rather 
have a copy of The Ultimate Powered Armor to make them truly complete). 
There's a new vigilante named Judgement who uses a car, a minijet, a 
helicopter, and a boat.  Warhawk's in there, with a brand-new giant robot. 
A heroic duo named Search and Rescue make use of hovercycles.  I have new 
versions of the Quarkstar submarine, Slingshot, and the Minuteman robot. 
I've also included a space fighter and a mining machine for good measure, 
and I think I may have a character or two in there that I've forgotten to 
mention.  The whole thing is wrapped up with a big table featuring all the 
stats published to date for mundane vehicles, plus anything else I've been 
able to think of to add in that area (which I admit isn't a lot). 
   (Everyone please note that all updated characters are subject to Bruce 
Harlick's approval.  I think that the only reason he'd nix their inclusion, 
though, would be if the intellectual property rights had reverted to the 
original owners, and all of the character names were on my original 
proposal, so I think he would've said something about it before now.) 
 
>   Also, (I don't have my book handy, so can't refresh my memory) 
>concerning Dogfight rules, definitely establish Size and Speed DCV 
>modifiers which (here comes the important part) can be easily translated 
>to other types of objects.  Like a character flying non-combat that 
>would not have a DEX-based DCV, but rather a velocity-related DCV. 
>Or a baseball should have a size/speed based DCV (requiring BB players 
>to have a skill and skill levels to be able to hit said small, 
>high-speed object).  I realize this is going beyong vehicle stuff, but I 
>think said DCV rules are important for vehicle combat, and having them, 
>they should be translatable to other applications. 
 
   You are, of course, correct on this point.  A standardized Size/Speed 
DCV rule system would be helpful to all players. 
 
>   Sorry I don't have any specifics, but I'm just an Idea Man.... 
 
   That's fine.  In fact, what you've said is enough idea for me to work 
with it. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:25:06 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:41 PM 10/30/97 -0800, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote: 
>      
>     One thing that should definitely be mentioned is vehicles with  
>     the ability to transform from one type of vehicle to another,  
>     like a car to a jet or a giant robot.  
 
   Yeah, it's almost a no-brainer there (thinking to include it, that is). 
 :-] 
 
>     And this is just one small step from vehicles which combine to  
>     form larger, more powerful vehicles (like the Phoenix on Battle  
>     of the Planets.) 
 
   I have Combine in there, as a variant on Multiform (as borrowed from the 
old Robot Warriors game based on 3rd Edition Hero).  Its strongest 
precedent is from Transformers and Power Rangers. 
   "Battle of the Planets"?  Is this a movie I missed in my research? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:18:38 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Setting a power level and making sure the PC is 3D 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Curt Hicks wrote: 
>  
>  Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> writes: 
>  
> > Then they get one of a variety of power packs. At random (I will pause here 
> > whilst you all gasp) 
> ............. 
> > will take the time to write it up. Right now they are all just trying to 
> > figure out how thier powers work! 
> > 
> I'd like to see some of these power packs.  I'm thinking about starting a 
> game where the players don't have full control over their power selection. 
>  
> Curt 
>  
   I've always enjoyed having  the opportunity to write up a player's 
character and surprise them.  Though I don't get the opportunity very 
often.  I've only had one player in my current game ask for 'surprise' 
powers; she started with a humanoid frog, and let me build from there.  
If your players are reluctant to enter such a game, you might try giving 
a bribery incentive; say allow characters built with GM input to have 
more points to start, so players may choose total control, but at a 
lesser power level... 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:25:42 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> So, fix the rules for normals, then let people buy a normal vehicle and 
> soup them up. 
> a 50 point charcter can't own a car and have skills. that's just silly. 
k 
 
	Right.  For that reason, I've never charged for 'normal' vehicle 
with no real combat effect.  They're there for SFX.  One character had a 
sky blue Dodge Dart ('76, I believe).  My character had a Herley. 
 
	They might use them to get to combat, but not for much else. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:27:36 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Comic book martial artists.... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> >>>>> "KF" == Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> writes: 
>  
> KF> What I meant by "unrestricted" was that there are no limits you "have" 
> KF> to take due to concept. Like ruling brick character cannot have a 
> KF> starting dex higher than 15 or something like that. 
>  
> Or that Speedsters need to have a 33 DEX/7 Speed. :) 
>  
> Seriously, this is what makes a point-based system shine.  If it is 
> reasonably balanced -- which Champions for the most part is -- then yes, 
> you can make a 250-point brick with a 23 Dexterity.  But to achieve that he 
> is going to be deficient in other "brick-like" areas.  Those weaknesses 
> will (or at least should) be exploited. 
 
   Actually, at one point (a loooong time ago) a friend and I decided to 
pit our two Bricks against one another, just to see who would win.  I 
had more strength and defenses, he had higher DEX and SPD.  We were 
completely stalemated for _several_ turns before we finally decided to 
give it up.  
 
> This is apart from common sense.  A "superior normal" like the Batman is 
> not going to have a 30 Strength, 26 Dexterity, and 6 Speed.  He may have 
> the points to do it, but those numbers are not in the "superior normal" 
> range. 
 
   Some years ago, I had a copy of the DC Heroes basic set (Only for 
evaluation purposes, honest!) and used a conversion system from an old 
Adventurer's Club to translate Batman into Hero stats.  I ended up with 
a pretty high DEX and a _7_ SPD!  I don't know whether DC's system or 
the conversion system was more flawed, but even as an approximate value, 
it was insane! 
 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:00:01 -0800 (PST) 
Cc: hero-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
> >    3) Does anyone have any specific requests or suggestions for something 
> > that could or should be included in the book?  The more specific, and the 
> > more directly connected to vehicles, the better. 
>  
 
	Genre info on running and doing the major genre's that tend to use 
vehicles: 
 
Anime/Mecha 
Road Warrior/Death Race 2000 
Batman and like Super Heroes. 
Sci Fi (If you're including Starships as vehicles) 
 
etc... 
 
 
Rook 
Also known as Arcady on #herochat, #Fuzionchat, #gurps, #V&V, 
and #SuperHeroChat in DALnet IRC 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 12:16:15 -0500 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
cc: <champ-l@omg.org> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 10/31/97 11:25 AM, Tim R. Gilberg (trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu) Said: 
 
>> So, fix the rules for normals, then let people buy a normal vehicle and 
>> soup them up. 
>> a 50 point charcter can't own a car and have skills. that's just silly. 
> 
>	Right.  For that reason, I've never charged for 'normal' vehicle 
>with no real combat effect.  They're there for SFX.  One character had a 
>sky blue Dodge Dart ('76, I believe).  My character had a Herley. 
 
Is there any reason you couldn't give everyone, say 25 "Everyman" points  
for a personal vehicle? 
 
 
 
                                         |  David A. Fair 
        Think Different                  |  SDS International 
                                         |  dfair@sdslink.com 
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:27:04 -0800 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
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Hash: SHA1 
 
At 01:28 PM 10/30/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   Here's a special call for help that is usually reserved for the  
AOL 
>Message Folder and newsgroup folks. 
>   I've gotten approval to write The Ultimate Super Vehicle, a book 
>designed to cover everything from the Batmobile to the Zords (and a  
few 
>things beyond, like the Argo or the Enterprise -- maybe even the  
Titanic). 
>With a bit of luck, it'll be ready to go out sometime this coming  
summer. 
 
One word -- WOO HOO! (Or is that two words?) 
 
>   I have three questions for help from you list folks: 
 
>   3) Does anyone have any specific requests or suggestions for  
something 
>that could or should be included in the book?  The more specific,  
and the 
>more directly connected to vehicles, the better. 
 
Yes. 
More detailed rules for heroic vehicle design. Mass, weight, volume,  
etc. Some kind of tech level system, perhaps exrpessed as active  
points. (i.e, at Tech 3, a weapon can have up to 45 active points.  
The next ten active points require a *1 advnatage, so a 55 Active  
Point weapon costs 65 'virtual' points when you add limitations, the  
next 10 require a *2 Advantage, etc.) 
 
Rules for long term vehicle occupancy -- how many people can live for  
how long in how much space? 
 
Breakdown and repair, with associated skills. 
 
Lots-o-vehicle limitations and advantages. 
 
Guidelines for weapons placements -- how many weapons can you mount? 
 
Etc. 
>   (Yes, anyone who gives a suggestion or idea that I actually use,  
or even 
>inspires one, will get a mention.) 
>--- 
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
>   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
>Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
>   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:12:37 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> >	Right.  For that reason, I've never charged for 'normal' vehicle 
> >with no real combat effect.  They're there for SFX.  One character had a 
> >sky blue Dodge Dart ('76, I believe).  My character had a Herley. 
> 
> Is there any reason you couldn't give everyone, say 25 "Everyman" points 
> for a personal vehicle? 
 
 
	None, really, except for simplicity.  As there is so little real 
effect except for RP, I just go with the standard book stats for movement 
if necessary.  Heck, the one time I decided yo make a cool entrance with 
my Harley, I rolled a 17 on the Combat Driving and had a brilliant wreck. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Cc: "'bob.greenwade@klock.com'" <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV (long) 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:34:35 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Bob writes: 
 
>1) Does anyone have any specific suggestions for improving the  
>dogfight rules? 
 
I haven't used the rules, but as I remember, the vehicles use the lesser 
of the DEX and SPD of the vehicle and the pilot. How about adding some 
optional rules to spice it up? Maybe the average of the DEX and SPDs? Or 
a coin toss to pick one or the other? Or something like that. 
 
>2) I'm including an adaptation of the Mass Combat Rules (from the 
>Fantasy Hero Companion) for vehicle combat (like on Babylon 5). 
 
I've struggled for years to make a good mass combat system for Hero. 
Some friends and I once designed a campaign around the idea. Instead of 
playing characters, we played armies. 1000 points to spend buying 
followers, bases, and vehicles (at the 1 per 5 point rate, with +5 
doubling). We got our nations designed, but were still unable to develop 
good rules. 
 
>Does anyone have any additional [Mass Combat] rules or ideas  
>that might be helpful? 
 
I'd like to see more than one mass combat rule systems. In many mass 
combats, there are PCs involved, and only the PCs' encounters matter 
directly. The only question is which side wins the war. In other mass 
combats, it's a regiment (or other indeterminate size of soldiers) 
that's tracked. For others, it's the whole nation. 
 
>3) Does anyone have any specific requests or suggestions for something 
>that could or should be included in the book?  The more specific, and  
>the more directly connected to vehicles, the better. 
 
As mentioned by others, I'd like to see lots of examples of vehicles. 
But not a lot of enumerations. One or two per archetype should be fine. 
For example, show two modern fighter jets, and discuss the differences 
between the two, and discuss how to customize to make other fighter 
jets. Show example pilot characters, and discuss their performance in 
various vehicles. Discuss the piloting skill as relates to cockpit 
complexity and plane type, etc. 
 
Then give stats for a modern passenger jet, an SST, a stealth jet, a 
bi-plane, a small personal plane, a slightly futuristic plane, and maybe 
one or two other planes. That should give enough of a cross-section of 
planes to give readers enough info to be able to design their own, as 
compared to others. "I want a small 8-man plane that's faster than most 
fighter jets, but as maneuverable as a regular small plane!" 
 
Same idea for cars. A few regular cars, a sports car, a jeep, a pickup, 
a semi, a bulldozer, a van, and a few others to discuss normal modern 
vehicles. A few old-timers and a few futuristic ones thrown in, too. 
 
I'd like to see a checklist of weapons and add-ons, kind of like the old 
Star Hero did. By checking the items that the players want in a vehicle, 
they can quickly add the costs. The toolkit approach. 
 
Once the basics are out of the way, begin to discuss modifications. A 
normal van that's been armor-plated, a sports car with remote control, a 
motorcycle with a pop-out hang-glider, etc.  
 
-- 
 
Capt. Spith said: 
 
>...establish Size and Speed DCV modifiers which (here comes  
>the important part) can be easily translated to other types of objects. 
>Like a character flying non-combat that would not have a DEX-based  
>DCV, but rather a velocity-related DCV. Or a baseball should have a  
>size/speed based DCV (requiring BB players to have a skill and skill  
>levels to be able to hit said small, high-speed object). 
 
I really like this idea, and would love to see this stuff included. 
 
-- 
 
Geoff Speare said: 
 
>I'd suggest using Opal's "incomplete character" rules, so that vehicles 
>are characters missing certain stats.  
 
I'm not sure I like this idea. The incomplete character rules, to me, 
are a good way to get an overview of the thinking behind the system, but 
I wouldn't want to see it turn up in a finished product. 
 
>Most of the times I see vehicles used in HERO combat, 
>they see to a) accelerate too fast and b) turn too quickly. 
 
I agree with this. Maybe there should be "heroic vehicle" rules and 
"normal vehicle" rules. 
 
>My suggestion would be to use non-combat movement for normal  
>vehicles (which can't maneuver well anyway.)  
 
Good idea. This normally happens anyway, though, right? Normal driving 
is already non-combat. Combat driving is mainly used for acceleration 
speeds, sharp turns, and driving *while actually in combat*, at least in 
my experience. 
 
-- 
 
Nez Master said: 
 
>My original group wanted to buy motorcycles for their group, so  
>they could occasionally storm in to places. (they are all former  
>members of a biker gang). They found they had spent 20+ points,  
>for something that was mostly special effect, and was very difficult  
>to make part of the game more than one every 10 games or so. 
 
That's why I was wondering if maybe owning a normal vehicle (that's used 
quite a bit in games) should be considered a perk. Probably just 1 point 
for most ground vehicles. 
 
-- 
 
Bob asked: 
	 
>"Battle of the Planets"?  Is this a movie I missed in my research? 
 
Not only was it the US remake of the anime cartoon "Ninja Science Team 
Gatchaman", it's currently being rerun as "Eagle Riders." 
 
-- 
 
Bob said: 
 
>Well, obviously, I can't include the Batmobile, Black Beauty,  
>the Blackbird, the Quinjet, and the Fantasticar, for copyright  
>reasons, but I am including at least one sample character for  
>each type of vehicle I could think of. 
 
Can you do cheap knock-off versions? A gadgetmonger car could easily be 
used by either Batman or James Bond. A generic small superteam jet with 
moderate armor and weaponry but a lot of speed could be used by any 
superteam. A hovercar might have been invented by any superscience guru. 
 
>The whole thing is wrapped up with a big table featuring all the 
>stats published to date for mundane vehicles, plus anything else  
>I've been able to think of to add in that area (which I admit isn't a 
lot). 
 
Besides just a big table with lots of stats, I'd like to see a 
discussion about what some of the stats translate to in the real world 
(like MPH, Mach), and what differentiates one vehicle from another. "Car 
X is faster than Car Y, but not as maneuverable. The pros and cons 
are... People who would prefer this one are..." 
 
-- 
 
Duane Morris said: 
 
>I would add Int/Ego to the vehicle <if it didn't have it already> with  
>the limitation "For Remote Operation Only", and use Mind control  
><with appropriate lims, of course> for the operator of device <be  
>it a neural headset, a bodysuit, etc..> 
 
INT I agree with, but EGO should only be used on KITT-like or other 
self-aware vehicles, I would think. 
 
-- 
 
Rook said: 
 
>Genre info on running and doing the major genre's that tend to use 
>vehicles: 
 
Definitely! Maybe even add a small sourcebook section on some of those 
genres. Make the book more than just a toolkit/sourcebook. 
 
-- 
 
On the whole, I think it's a great idea, and it looks like you've 
already got a great handle on it. 
 
I would like to see superpowers included though, like the Spideymobile's 
Clinging, Superman's spaceship with retractable arms, etc. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905 
 
 
 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Re: The Archer Returns!!! 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:34:40 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>He will also be able to snare arrows in mid-flight, at which 
>point he may drop them, hold them, or send them back 
 
If he waits until his next phase, as has been already stated, he doesn't 
need the reflection. Just plain missile deflection can be used to catch. 
 
>...and the attack with the arrow does the attacker's damage 
>(2d6 K) or Archer's damage (3d6 K) when he sends it back? 
 
This depends on whether it's his special arrows that do extra damage 
(which you say they don't), or whether his bow is spiffier than most 
(which it sounds like the case), or whether it's his ultimate archery 
skill. 
 
If it's the arrows, no. The arrows do the damage they were built with. 
 
If it's the bow, possibly. You can buy an extra d6K only when firing 
others' arrows that are less than 3d6K (-1), OAF. 
 
If it's his skill, yes. You can buy that like the above, or just do it 
with skill levels. Either by calling shots to do more damage, or by 
adapting the hand-to-hand skill level rules to allow +1 BODY or +1 
Multiple, or by building an archery martial art. 
 
>...and if Archer had advantages with his bow, such as  
>Increased Maximum Range or No Range Penalty, would they apply? 
 
Just like above. If the extras are because of the arrows, no. The bow, 
possibly. His skill, yes. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:36:58 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Oh, yeah. I forgot to add that I'd like to see interdimensional 
vehicles, too (Is the Tardis a vehicle, or a base with powers?). 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905 
 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:39:13 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org" 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Two words:  Swingmobile (A vechile with swinging???) 
 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:02:36 -0800 (PST) 
From: Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca> 
cc: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
X-X-Sender: duane@science.yorku.ca 
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On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    If by mechas you're referring to those big things that we of the Not 
> Quite Middle Aged Generation call "giant robots," there's plenty there; in 
> fact, the book started out as The Ultimate Giant Robot. 
>    As for Rigging, you're talking about simply acting out the motions of a 
> giant robot to control the vehicle, right?  How would that be modeled in 
> Hero terms -- any ideas? 
 
I would add Int/Ego to the vehicle <if it didn't have it already> with the 
limitation "For Remote Operation Only", and use Mind control <with 
appropriate lims, of course> for the operator of device <be it a neural 
headset, a bodysuit, etc..> 
 
 
BTW: Battle of the Planets was a **REALLY** bad cartoon that appeared 
briefly back in 82-83 timeframe...  If you can remember the phrase 
"G-Force" or the name "Zoltar" <sp??> then you're heading in the right 
direction.... <sigh> 
 
And here I thought that I had been able to completely forget about that 
show... (:(: 
 
Duane. 
 
------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca>   Dept. of Technical Services 
Faculty of Pure and Applied Science        Petrie Science Stores 
York University, North York, Ontario  M3J 1P3, CANADA 
Voice: (416) 736-5244; Fax: (416) 736-5516 
 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:03:58 -0800 
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger) 
Subject: Re[2]: Help with TUSV 
Cc: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
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     Duane Morris wrote: 
      
     >BTW: Battle of the Planets was a **REALLY** bad cartoon that  
     >appeared briefly back in 82-83 timeframe...  If you can remember  
     >the phrase "G-Force" or the name "Zoltar" <sp??> then you're  
     >heading in the right direction.... <sigh> 
      
     >And here I thought that I had been able to completely forget  
     >about that show... (:(: 
      
     Battle of the Planets was great! I remember playing on one of my  
     neighbor's swing sets, pretending to be Mark (or Jason...  
     whichever one was the Han Solo analog). All of the characters  
     were dressed like birds, with gliding wings and a beak on their  
     helmets. My first exposure to Japanese animation...long before  
     Voltron. 
      
      
     IIRC, G-Force was the same cartoon, but with different dialogue.  
     Also had different character names and storylines... all with the  
     same animation. The dialogue has recently been re-re-recorded,  
     making the show into Saban's Eagle Riders.  
      
     BTW, the Phoenix was their spaceship/superjet, and all of the  
     other vehicles (jetplane, racecar, motorcycle, goofy bubble-car)  
     fit into various places in the Phoenix (the racecar in the nose,  
     the jet near the engines, etc.) I'm pretty sure that the Phoenix  
     could only use it's super fire abilities when all of the other  
     vehicles were in place, but I could be wrong. 
      
     Richard  
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:37:34 -0800 
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On Thursday, October 30, 1997 2:02 PM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
<snip> 
>   2) I'm including an adaptation of the Mass Combat Rules (from the 
>Fantasy Hero Companion) for vehicle combat (like on Bablyon 5).  Does 
>anyone have any additional rules or ideas that might be helpful? 
 
There was an earlier version of the Mass Combat Rules that would be of 
more use, IMHO. In one of the first 6 or 7 Adventurer's Clubs, they 
created rules for treating 2 to 8 homogenous characters (like agents, 
soldiers, police, etc.) as a single character. It involved charts 
showing what kind of "to hit" roll you would get from having, say, 6 
8- to hit rolls, as opposed to 1, and how many extra hits you would 
get from rolling below that number. 
 
The advantages are several: 
 
1) Single vehicles, such as those run by characters, can be treated 
individually, allowing them to influence the battle. 
 
2) Multiple vehicles can be run using the same rules as individual 
characters, such as a superteam fighting an assault from space. 
 
3) You will rarely too many vehicles to use in this fashion, thus 
requiring the mass combat rules. Two fleets of eighty vehicles each 
can be run as two groups of ten characters, and would be considered a 
very large battle. Most battles would be much smaller. 
 
4) Most people hate the mass combat rules. 
 
I don't know for certain which Adventurer's Club that is in. I lost 
mine years ago (stolen), and I've never seen it since. You might want 
to check with Bruce Harlick. Actually, I think I will- I loved those 
rules. 
 
Filksinger 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:42:36 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
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At 09:29 AM 10/31/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>>    2) I'm including an adaptation of the Mass Combat Rules (from the 
>> Fantasy Hero Companion) for vehicle combat (like on Bablyon 5).  Does 
>> anyone have any additional rules or ideas that might be helpful? 
> 
>I hope your adaptation does some extensive adapting; as I recall, the Mass 
>Combat Rules had some major flaws to them. (I've never actually used them, 
>since I disliked them so much on reading those rules.)  
 
   I've never actually used the rules either, for lack of opportunity.  I 
was hoping for some feedback from someone who had. 
   Could you point out any specific flaws, things that need to be changed? 
 
>If you're getting into B5 style space combat, you may want to at least 
>mention inertia. While a Star Wars or Star Trek style spacecraft flies 
>like a plane, with engines always firing and facing the direction of 
>motion, B5 or more realistic SF craft have greater maneuvering options. 
 
   Don't worry; that's in there alrighty. 
 
>>    3) Does anyone have any specific requests or suggestions for something 
>> that could or should be included in the book?  The more specific, and the 
>> more directly connected to vehicles, the better. 
>>    (Yes, anyone who gives a suggestion or idea that I actually use, or even 
>> inspires one, will get a mention.) 
> 
> 
>I really liked the car chase rules and tables in Eye for an Eye. (Even 
>more than I disliked that book's optional combat rules.) I wouldn't mind 
>seeing them repeated, expanded upon, or somehow perpetuated. 
 
   They're in there, with a few minor alterations (like scaling the amount 
of ability loss in the Hit Location system to the amount of BODY damage 
done).  And Steve Long will be evaluating my manuscript for further ideas. 
(Oops - did I just say something naughty?) 
 
>Also, I'd like to see  some comprehensive vehicle lists, at the very least 
>on the order of what Champions II had. It would be very useful to have a 
>fairly extensive collection of various mundane vehicles from various time 
>periods, including cars, aircraft, boats, etc. 
 
   As I mentioned elsewhere, I will be trying to pick up a copy of 
Champions II before I send this out, and possibly include the vehicle 
construction rules in it as an appendix (for an alternate creation/combat 
system).  I didn't remember any vehicle lists in there, but I can adapt and 
add to what I already have (which combines what's in the BBB, I4I, and KoC, 
plus a few other things like hovercycles, giant robot frames, and a 
Centurion truck). 
--- 
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Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 14:50:09 -0500 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
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Bob Greenwade bob.greenwade@klock.com 10/30/97 4:28 PM 
 
>   Here's a special call for help that is usually reserved for the AOL 
>Message Folder and newsgroup folks. 
>   I've gotten approval to write The Ultimate Super Vehicle, a book 
>designed to cover everything from the Batmobile to the Zords (and a few 
>things beyond, like the Argo or the Enterprise -- maybe even the Titanic). 
>With a bit of luck, it'll be ready to go out sometime this coming summer. 
 
<snip> 
 
>   3) Does anyone have any specific requests or suggestions for something 
>that could or should be included in the book?  The more specific, and the 
>more directly connected to vehicles, the better. 
 
In a word, SCALE.  I don't really care how it's done, but a giant robot 
or a capital class starship should symbly be able to dish out a LOT more 
damage than any hand held/mutant/battle suit can achieve.  The scale rules 
were one of my favorite parts of the Star Wars RPG.  They are also  
necessary 
for things like the Argo, a Wave Motion Gun is not built on the same  
active 
point limits as a .45.  And making every super weapon a plot device tends  
to 
fly in the face of the genre.  In the campaing I'm currently in, we let 
each level of growth add a DC to all attacks, which helps with normal  
weapons 
but still isn't a full answer. 
 
Just my $.02. 
 
PAX, 
John 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:51:57 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
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At 09:56 AM 10/31/97 -0500, Geoffrey Speare wrote: 
>>    3) Does anyone have any specific requests or suggestions for something 
>> that could or should be included in the book?  The more specific, and the 
>> more directly connected to vehicles, the better. 
> 
>Here I've got a few. :-) 
> 
>1) The vehicle rules should be an extension (a SMALL extension) of the base 
>rules. Rules like "vehicle movement costs 0 END by default" shouldn't 
>exist. I'd suggest using Opal's "incomplete character" rules, so that 
vehicles 
>are characters missing certain stats.  
 
   While I like that one in principle, that may be a little extreme even 
for what I'm putting together.  I have borrowed a few general concepts from 
what I remember of it, though; it will now be possible for a vehicle to 
have INT, EGO, and/or PRE. 
   (Hey Opal, want to e-mail me a text attachment of this to see what I can 
swipe?  I might even be able to stick it in TUSV after all....) 
 
>2) This probably means adding concepts like variable acceleration, 
>deceleration, and turn modes (yeah, I know they are sort of already there) to 
>the base HERO rules. Most of the times I see vehicles used in HERO combat, 
>they see to a) accelerate too fast and b) turn too quickly. 
 
   I have put Acceleration and Deceleration in as vehicular Talents that 
can even (at the GM's option) be allowed for regular characters.  In the 
current draft it costs 2 points to raise either by 1" per segment, and 
either or both may be bought down to a minimum of 1"  (A Deceleration of 0" 
*could* be used in a comedy campaign.) 
   I'll see what I can figure out as far as Turn Mode.  Anyone have any ideas? 
 
>3) "Normal" vehicles need to be cheap, while "enhanced" vehicles should be 
>balanced within the rules. My suggestion would be to use non-combat movement 
>for normal vehicles (which can't manuever well anyway.) Also, by starting off 
>with a normal character when making a vehicle, you get points for stuff like 
>"inanimate", "no limbs", etc. 
 
   What's your distinction between "normal" vehicles and "enhanced" 
vehicles? 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:59:19 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
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At 09:59 AM 10/31/97 -0500, Nez Master wrote: 
>Though this is  asuper vehicle book, I think the base cost should be lower. 
>I don't think A  volkswagon or a motorcycle  (unmodified) should cost 20 
>points, and hten have to build from there to make anythign cool. Only one 
>person in my group has ever succesfully used a vehicle and he was an inch 
>high, so the vehicle could be carried around by other people. This made it 
>come up every couple of games, which if your going to spend 50+  points on 
>something, should happen. 
>My original group wanted to buy motorcycles for their group, so they could 
>occasionally storm in to places. (they are all former members of a biker 
>gang). They found they had spent 20+ points, for something that was mostly 
>special effect, and was very difficult to make part of the game more htan 
>one every 10 games or so. (as part of the original premise, thy had other 
>transportation and were often galavanting around the world). 
>So, fix the rules for normals, then let people buy a normal vehicle and 
>soup them up. 
>a 50 point charcter can't own a car and have skills. that's just silly. 
 
   A general rule that I think most GMs already use is that a character may 
(unless he has one of the Money Disadvantages) have a normal vehicle for 
free.  The rule I'm putting in (influenced by your story here) is that it 
should depend in large part on what the character wants to do with it. 
   Additionally, I've expanded how vehicles may have Disadvantages, so it's 
a lot easier for a vehicle to at least partially pay for itself. 
   In this case, I would have charged half price for those cycles -- 10 
points each, for ones that normally would cost 20 points. 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:02:40 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Remote Operation 
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At 11:02 AM 10/31/97 -0800, Duane Morris wrote: 
>>    As for Rigging, you're talking about simply acting out the motions of a 
>> giant robot to control the vehicle, right?  How would that be modeled in 
>> Hero terms -- any ideas? 
> 
>I would add Int/Ego to the vehicle <if it didn't have it already> with the 
>limitation "For Remote Operation Only", and use Mind control <with 
>appropriate lims, of course> for the operator of device <be it a neural 
>headset, a bodysuit, etc..> 
 
   Ooh, *remote* operation.  That's a hard one to model, and I'm not too 
sure I'd use this method. 
   I think maybe a better method would be a Mind Link that, unlike a 
"classic" neural link, is not bought with No Range. 
   Feedback, anyone?  (I mean on the *question.*) 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:15:06 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Cc: hero-l@omg.org 
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At 09:00 AM 10/31/97 -0800, Brian Wong wrote: 
>>  
>> >    3) Does anyone have any specific requests or suggestions for something 
>> > that could or should be included in the book?  The more specific, and the 
>> > more directly connected to vehicles, the better. 
>>  
> 
> Genre info on running and doing the major genre's that tend to use 
>vehicles: 
> 
>Anime/Mecha 
>Road Warrior/Death Race 2000 
>Batman and like Super Heroes. 
>Sci Fi (If you're including Starships as vehicles) 
 
   I do have some notes on all of these, though I'm leaving most of the 
extensive stuff for the genre books. 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:15:06 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Cc: hero-l@omg.org 
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At 09:00 AM 10/31/97 -0800, Brian Wong wrote: 
>>  
>> >    3) Does anyone have any specific requests or suggestions for something 
>> > that could or should be included in the book?  The more specific, and the 
>> > more directly connected to vehicles, the better. 
>>  
> 
> Genre info on running and doing the major genre's that tend to use 
>vehicles: 
> 
>Anime/Mecha 
>Road Warrior/Death Race 2000 
>Batman and like Super Heroes. 
>Sci Fi (If you're including Starships as vehicles) 
 
   I do have some notes on all of these, though I'm leaving most of the 
extensive stuff for the genre books. 
--- 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:30:15 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
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At 09:27 AM 10/31/97 -0800, Lizard wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>Hash: SHA1 
> 
>At 01:28 PM 10/30/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>   Here's a special call for help that is usually reserved for the  
>AOL 
>>Message Folder and newsgroup folks. 
>>   I've gotten approval to write The Ultimate Super Vehicle, a book 
>>designed to cover everything from the Batmobile to the Zords (and a  
>few 
>>things beyond, like the Argo or the Enterprise -- maybe even the  
>Titanic). 
>>With a bit of luck, it'll be ready to go out sometime this coming  
>summer. 
> 
>One word -- WOO HOO! (Or is that two words?) 
 
   Uh... I take it, that's a *positive* "woo hoo"? 
 
>>   I have three questions for help from you list folks: 
> 
>>   3) Does anyone have any specific requests or suggestions for  
>something 
>>that could or should be included in the book?  The more specific,  
>and the 
>>more directly connected to vehicles, the better. 
> 
>Yes. 
>More detailed rules for heroic vehicle design. Mass, weight, volume,  
>etc. Some kind of tech level system, perhaps exrpessed as active  
>points. (i.e, at Tech 3, a weapon can have up to 45 active points.  
>The next ten active points require a *1 advnatage, so a 55 Active  
>Point weapon costs 65 'virtual' points when you add limitations, the  
>next 10 require a *2 Advantage, etc.) 
 
   Mass/Weight/Volum:  I'm not sure what you're after here. 
   Tech Levels:  This is so variable from one campaign setting to another 
that I don't think it'd fit into an archetype book very well.  In fact, 
stuff on Tech Levels arguably belongs more in a Star Hero book.  However, I 
think a few brief words (just a little more than what you wrote here) would 
be a good thing. 
 
>Rules for long term vehicle occupancy -- how many people can live for  
>how long in how much space? 
 
   This one goes into the "Well Duh" file (where I file stuff that someone 
points out that I should've thought of already). 
 
>Breakdown and repair, with associated skills. 
 
   Got it.  I have several options for this, in fact, most of which are not 
mutually exclusive. 
 
>Lots-o-vehicle limitations and advantages. 
 
   I definitely have this. 
 
>Guidelines for weapons placements -- how many weapons can you mount? 
 
   Good idea.  How does a limit of 100 Active Points, doubled for every 3 
levels of Size sound for starters?  (Just an off-the cuff suggestion of 
something simple to get things started.) 
   Of course, such limits would be thrown out for fantastic or comedic 
campaigns. 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:34:24 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
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At 01:36 PM 10/31/97 -0500, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>Oh, yeah. I forgot to add that I'd like to see interdimensional 
>vehicles, too (Is the Tardis a vehicle, or a base with powers?). 
 
   That's in there all righty. 
   And the answer to your last question is yes.   ;-] 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:36:13 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
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At 01:39 PM 10/31/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>Two words:  Swingmobile (A vechile with swinging???) 
 
   I don't know that I'll be including this as a sample vehicle, since the 
only character I can think of who would have one is Foxbat.  However, I do 
have a mention of the Swinging Power as a conceivable means of vehicle 
movement. 
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From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: Acronyms 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:38:45 -0500 (EST) 
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> >How about 'Demons Exist, Master One Now'? :} 
> > 
> Cute. 
>  
> - Jerry 
>  
 
Apologies in advance, but I've had this one for a while and have 
been looking for an excuse to share it: 
 
Bruce 
Apprehends 
Thugs, 
 
Mostly 
At 
Night 
 
 
Sorry!  Sorry! 
 
-Eric 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:48:40 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV (long) 
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At 01:34 PM 10/31/97 -0500, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>>2) I'm including an adaptation of the Mass Combat Rules (from the 
>>Fantasy Hero Companion) for vehicle combat (like on Babylon 5). 
> 
>I've struggled for years to make a good mass combat system for Hero. 
>Some friends and I once designed a campaign around the idea. Instead of 
>playing characters, we played armies. 1000 points to spend buying 
>followers, bases, and vehicles (at the 1 per 5 point rate, with +5 
>doubling). We got our nations designed, but were still unable to develop 
>good rules. 
 
   Well, Dave, I think you'll be in luck.  I too have designed a campaign 
setting where this type of thing is done.  Hopefully you'll be able to find 
some of the ideas in that setting useful. 
   But I have almost nothing really new to add to the Mass Combat rules 
from FHC, unfortunately. 
 
>>Does anyone have any additional [Mass Combat] rules or ideas  
>>that might be helpful? 
> 
>I'd like to see more than one mass combat rule systems. In many mass 
>combats, there are PCs involved, and only the PCs' encounters matter 
>directly. The only question is which side wins the war. In other mass 
>combats, it's a regiment (or other indeterminate size of soldiers) 
>that's tracked. For others, it's the whole nation. 
 
   The first two are already pretty well covered; the first is a normal 
tactical battle (old-fashioned Hero combat), and everyone's morale rests on 
the PCs' success or failure in that battle.  The second is regular Mass 
Combat.  The third could probably be done by taking Mass Combat to an 
extreme, summing up the entire army into a single character sheet. 
 
>>3) Does anyone have any specific requests or suggestions for something 
>>that could or should be included in the book?  The more specific, and  
>>the more directly connected to vehicles, the better. 
> 
>As mentioned by others, I'd like to see lots of examples of vehicles. 
>But not a lot of enumerations. One or two per archetype should be fine. 
>For example, show two modern fighter jets, and discuss the differences 
>between the two, and discuss how to customize to make other fighter 
>jets. Show example pilot characters, and discuss their performance in 
>various vehicles. Discuss the piloting skill as relates to cockpit 
>complexity and plane type, etc. 
> 
>Then give stats for a modern passenger jet, an SST, a stealth jet, a 
>bi-plane, a small personal plane, a slightly futuristic plane, and maybe 
>one or two other planes. That should give enough of a cross-section of 
>planes to give readers enough info to be able to design their own, as 
>compared to others. "I want a small 8-man plane that's faster than most 
>fighter jets, but as maneuverable as a regular small plane!" 
> 
>Same idea for cars. A few regular cars, a sports car, a jeep, a pickup, 
>a semi, a bulldozer, a van, and a few others to discuss normal modern 
>vehicles. A few old-timers and a few futuristic ones thrown in, too. 
 
   I'm going to have to keep this list handy to make sure I have at least 
as much as you've just asked for.  In particular, I need to expand the list 
of air and sea vessels to include more types and more detail; the SST and 
the biplane specifically need to be put in (good suggestions, those). 
 
>I'd like to see a checklist of weapons and add-ons, kind of like the old 
>Star Hero did. By checking the items that the players want in a vehicle, 
>they can quickly add the costs. The toolkit approach. 
 
   Something like, a few basic combat vehicles and a few dozen pages of 
weapons and other equipment?  You have nothing to worry about on that 
count.  If anything I may have overdone this one. 
 
>Once the basics are out of the way, begin to discuss modifications. A 
>normal van that's been armor-plated, a sports car with remote control, a 
>motorcycle with a pop-out hang-glider, etc.  
 
   I still have to work out vehicular Remote Control.  It's a question 
that's been stumping me for quite some time. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 02:00:09 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
michael jones wrote: 
>count inertia as relative movement. . .. dexteritiy and speed is 
manuverabilitym, 
>as well as covering concepts like inertial damping- B5 starfuries are 
actually LESS 
>manuverable, because thay have to worry about g-forces, although the 
spinny-thingy  
>aids in that. ..  
> 
I don't see how inertia is relative movement...  and while I agree that DEX 
and SPD represent manueverability to an extent (esp. DEX), I'm not sure how 
it covers inertial damping.  Could you explain? 
I also could argue that the B5 ships are more manueverable, because they can 
rapidly change trajectories... but I assume they give up speed over a 
comparable technological equivalent true fighter (like the X-Wing).  Just 
like comparing a Harrier and an F-15.  It would also depend on ones 
definition of "manueverable."  I also think that X-Wings had to worry about 
g-forces, or they would have an infinitely tight turn mode...  if I'm wrong 
on this, I'm sorry, but the same g-forces should apply to either Star Wars 
ships or B5 ships... 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 02:05:00 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
michael jones wrote: 
>50 pt c's are not SUPERHERIOC- like cops and agents they don't have to  
>follow the rules fer all that. . .howeveri think rules which make loss of 
vehicles 
>not a 'permanent' point loss is a very good idea- who's gonna spend pioints  
>knowing that the gm can just take tham away?  
> 
Your first point is quite correct, in most Heroic campaigns, the PCs don't 
have to pay points for vehicles, weapons, equipment, etc. 
However, loss of vehicles as a plot device is the same as loss of bases as a 
plot device, or loss of Followers as a plot device, or loss of Powers as a 
plot device...  up to the individual GM.  Now, if you're talking about a GM 
who will destroy a vehicle in combat, and not let you repair it later...  I 
believe Mr. Greewade has mentioned repair rules in this summation of his 
book, and I also think that your GM may be a *wee* bit harsh in his 
ruling...  but I am not he, and I don't know his reasoning. 
And the GM can take *any* points away... if you take that attitude, play a 
"base" character, and don't spend *any* points.  Whoops, actually, I could 
cripple that guy, too, and lower his CHA as well...  oh, well... 
 
- Jerry 
 
From: "Mann, Wade" <WMann@Rogue.CC.OR.US> 
Subject: RE: Vampires vs Water 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:19:09 -0800 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> >	In the Hero Bestiary there are two forms of vampires.  The 
> >lesser and the greater (go figure) and both of these have the 15 
> point 
> >Physical Limitation: Cannot cross running water (Infrequently, 
> Fully). 
> > 
> >	I thought this interesting because the creators made this a 
> >physical limitation which would affect the vampire even if he/she/it 
> is 
> >unconscious. 
>  
> How so? A Physical Limitation is 'something a character CANNOT do' 
> whereas a Psychological Limitation is 'something a character WILL NOT 
> do'. 
>  
> Clearly an inability to cross water is in the former category 
>  
	[Mann, Wade]   
 
	You are correct.  I answered this question while thinking about 
a half dozen other things, just like now. 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <fogi@mail.inter.net.il> 
From: "Ori Folger" <fogi@mail.inter.net.il> 
Organization: Folger World Rulers Inc. 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 21:52:48 +2 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
CC: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org> 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
  
>    If by mechas you're referring to those big things that we of the Not 
> Quite Middle Aged Generation call "giant robots," there's plenty there; in 
> fact, the book started out as The Ultimate Giant Robot. 
 
Oh, goodie. Please make sure that the Transformers are mentioned  
somewhere (even though they're not really vehicles, more like  
vehicle-shaped androids).  
 
>    As for Rigging, you're talking about simply acting out the motions of a 
> giant robot to control the vehicle, right?  How would that be modeled in 
> Hero terms -- any ideas? 
 
Well, rigging is for normal vehicles mostly, although the idea fits  
giant robots perfectly. I think that the way to do it is to give  
skill levels with combat driving with the limitations appropiate to a  
link to your brain (requires input port install in brain, for  
example). But rigging can be even better. What you are really doing  
in rigging is possessing the vehicle. You see what the vehicle sees,  
you actually feel yourself moving around in the dirt, speeding to  
100mph, etc. This could be a package of powers, like Extra Senses and  
maybe a DEX bonus (your reactions are much faster than those of a  
normal driver). Also, the big advantage of rigging is that you  
control your vehicle from afar, requiring a Range advantage on combat  
driving. 
 
 
 
Yours, 
  Folger 
 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:51:53 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Silly Vehicles (Was Re: Help with TUSV) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
> Alone At Midnight piped up with: 
> >Two words:  Swingmobile (A vechile with swinging???) 
> > 
> Gah. : )  Man, you're either a lunatic or a genius.  Or both. 
> Anyway, the only way I could see it being done would be a mecha ("Giant 
> Robot," Bob) built with that in mind...  Giant ArachniRobo!  or somesuch. 
> Dave Mattingly already brought up the SpideyMobile, ferchrissakes... 
> (Clinging). 
>  
 
This kind of reminds me of the jeep used by my character Dr. Frog and his 
sidekick, Toady. Toady was president of the Burt Ward fan club in his 
secret ID, so naturally he called the vehicle the Frogmobile. Dr. Frog, 
who thought the jeep was a little silly for the serious business of 
crimefighting and amphibiology, preferred to call it the "Toad Truck." 
 
Anyway, the Frogmobile had a propelled grapple and winch Entangle referred 
to as "the tongue," power jacks for Superleap, and inflatable tires for 
water movement, making it ... amphibious. 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 22:05:24  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Acronyms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:51:34 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
>/qts/ wrote: 
>>>.  I worked out DEMON in latin, beginning with 
>>>"Deus Es Mortum" (God Is Dead) ... then promptly forgot it. I've been trying 
>>>to work out those last two letters for the past year, and still haven't 
>>>found a satisfactory solution. 
>> 
>>Possibly because the first three are wrong? 'God is dead' is rendered 
>>in Latin as 'Deus mortuus est' 
>> 
>But there isn't a set grammatical structure in Latin, so this could be 
>rewritten, "Deus Est Mortuus..."  
 
Actually, there is - the verb comes at the end, and you usually have 
Subject, clauses, Object, clauses, Verb. Unless you're writing poetry 
 
>>How about 'Demons Exist, Master One Now'? :} 
>> 
>Cute. 
 
:} 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 22:09:13  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:28:50 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>   Here's a special call for help that is usually reserved for the AOL 
>Message Folder and newsgroup folks. 
>   I've gotten approval to write The Ultimate Super Vehicle, a book 
>designed to cover everything from the Batmobile to the Zords (and a few 
>things beyond, like the Argo or the Enterprise -- maybe even the Titanic). 
>With a bit of luck, it'll be ready to go out sometime this coming summer. 
 
YES! 
 
Please don't forget things like the Triceratops saddle, or the 
Raptor-drawn chariot, cloud castles on the Fantasy front and Jules 
Verne style spaceships. Oh, and the Nautilus. 
 
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:04:16 -0600 (CST) 
Subject: TUSV: Remote Operation  vs. Rigging 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Hi Bob, 
 
I'd distinguish between 'rigging' and 'remote control'.  'Rigging' in the  
cyberpunk sense means that the driver is somehow connected to the vehicle 
so that controlling the vehicle becomes as automatic as controlling the  
driver's own body.  That's the 'special effect'.  The game effect should 
be that a driver using a 'vehicle control rig' would be superior to a 
driver not using a 'vehicle control rig'.   
 
'Remote control' is of course driving a vehicle without being in it. 
This could be done with a 'vehicle control rig' for the improved handling 
but doesn't HAVE to be.  (Think remote control rig for radio-controlled 
toys.)   
 
Actually, because of the time lag, I'd guess that 'remote control' would 
offer driving/piloting performance WORSE than being in the vehicle... 
 
Just my two cents.  
 
Curt Hicks 
 
>  
> At 11:02 AM 10/31/97 -0800, Duane Morris wrote: 
> >>    As for Rigging, you're talking about simply acting out the motions of a 
> >> giant robot to control the vehicle, right?  How would that be modeled in 
> >> Hero terms -- any ideas? 
> > 
> >I would add Int/Ego to the vehicle <if it didn't have it already> with the 
> >limitation "For Remote Operation Only", and use Mind control <with 
> >appropriate lims, of course> for the operator of device <be it a neural 
> >headset, a bodysuit, etc..> 
>  
>    Ooh, *remote* operation.  That's a hard one to model, and I'm not too 
> sure I'd use this method. 
>    I think maybe a better method would be a Mind Link that, unlike a 
> "classic" neural link, is not bought with No Range. 
>    Feedback, anyone?  (I mean on the *question.*) 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV (long) 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:31:42 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Friday, October 31, 1997 1:58 PM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>>Once the basics are out of the way, begin to discuss modifications. 
A 
>>normal van that's been armor-plated, a sports car with remote 
control, a 
>>motorcycle with a pop-out hang-glider, etc. 
> 
>   I still have to work out vehicular Remote Control.  It's a 
question 
>that's been stumping me for quite some time. 
 
 
Create a brand new power. That's what they did for spirits in the HA1. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:37:34 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: UAO NND 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Rick Ryker wrote 
> Your offer of kindness is appreciated but not necessary. 
> If, as you say, the sun were to be replaced with a black hole of exactly 
> equal size, then we would all die anyway due to lack of heat and light. 
> Also, unlike our sun, which is constantly losing mass due to the radiant 
> energy which it constantly dissipates, a black hole sucks in heat and 
> light. 
> All heat and all light.  (And the few billion stray neutrons or two.) 
> Increased energy equates to increased mass in a black hole. 
>  
> Granted, a black hole the mass of the sun would be very very small. 
> But even if it only had the mass of a human (100 kg in Champions terms), 
> the earth would still get sucked in at this distance, and so would you. 
> If the black hole were far enough away to only exert a force of 200 
> grams 
> (which is still a huge force at stellar distances), then earth would 
> have 
> a very limited existence left. 
>  
> Now, getting back to a mass that would exert the TK forces we were 
> talking about, a true black hole does not have self immunity to its own 
> gravity (this is why a "failed" black hole is a white dwarf or neutron 
> star); 
> and a black hole with the mass of a normal human would still 
> be a danger to the entire earth. 
> (A black hole with the volume of a human, well, it would do orders of 
> magnitude more.) 
>  
> -RICK 
 
	I fear this may set off some of those that seem to object to too much  
realism in a game but no matter what we are trying to do, are we not affecting  
reality?  (Please, flip response only.) 
 
	The effects of gravity, ignoring a lot of other stuff that will have an  
effect, can be put down to three relatively simple factors.  The amount of mass  
involved, the distance from said mass and how concentrated the mass is.  Just  
about everybody by now has seen the graphic depiction of the effects of mass on  
space.  Concentrate the mass and what would happen, I think, would be that the  
dimple goes deeper but does not spread. 
 
	What this means is that if the sun was made into a black hole, the mass  
would be the same but be more concentrated and hence make a deeper well.  Your  
position on the side of the well has not changed and hence the effects of  
gravity has not changed but if you wish you can go deeper into the well and  
suffer the effects. 
 
	As for the effect of the black sol sucking up all light and heat, the  
sun as it is looses tonnes of matter every second but this doesn't cause a huge  
change in the sun gravitic effects.  Black sol would gain not as many tonnes  
per second, PERHAPS, but it would still not have a noticable effect on the  
gravitic effects. 
 
	As for your last point, if Sol became a black hole, its size would  
still be somewhat larger than a man.  Okay, it may be only on the order of tens  
of metres but still. 
 
	Having said all this, it may not be a 100% correct.  If anybody who  
still has an interest, (which I still do [in this and the effects of a nuke]),  
and has hard data, I would be very much interested in knowing. 
 
	Thanks for your time. 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:01:53 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Re: RE: Help with TUSV 
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org" 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>   I don't know that I'll be including this as a sample vehicle... 
 
Alright, I have two more words for you: 
	Stiltmobile 
	(Yes, this technically is _one_ word.) 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 12:05:33 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy? 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:22 PM 10/30/97 -0800, you wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade 
>On Thursday, October 30, 1997 5:12 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
> 
><snip> 
>>   Pardon the nitpicking (I'm only skimming this topic at present), 
>but 
>>Michael did correctly spell "physiology."  It's his "psychology" 
>that's 
>>screwed up.  ;-] 
> 
> 
>Nope. He misspelled both of them. I just didn't check the others. 
> 
>Filksinger 
> 
> 
 
 
 
oh, goody! we're back to spelling! that's SO important!!!!!  
(p.s. i've dropped the thread out of the goodness o' my heart-  
don't you lads start thinking your right, hear? *eg*) 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 12:10:38 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:28 PM 10/30/97 -0800, you wrote: 
 
>   1) Does anyone have any specific suggestions for improving the dogfight 
>rules? 
 
 
well, if you interested i could send u a copy of my 3dcombat rules, which basically track the vehicles as a 'virtual cube' (six sides) in relation to each other. . .  
and map out powers within the structure in blocks of hexes. .  
but nobody seems to like it. . .*sulk* 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 12:24:19 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
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At 04:12 AM 10/31/97 -0800, you wrote: 
>   I would say that one thing lacking in many supplements is 
>*examples*.  You should definitely include a large number of specific 
>examples, such as the Batmobile (of course), The Green Hornet's car, The 
>X-Men's Black Bird, the Avengers' Quinjet, the F.F.'s pogoplane (or 
>whatever vehicle they have had that may be reasonably well-recognised), 
>as well as several 'common' vehicle types; Geo Metro (no-frills 
>compact), Nissan Sentra (standard economy) Firebird (standard phallic 
>substitute), some MiniVan, some 4x4/Sports-Utility Vehicle, etc. 
> 
>   Also, (I don't have my book handy, so can't refresh my memory) 
>concerning Dogfight rules, definitely establish Size and Speed DCV 
>modifiers which (here comes the important part) can be easily translated 
>to other types of objects.  Like a character flying non-combat that 
>would not have a DEX-based DCV, but rather a velocity-related DCV. 
>Or a baseball should have a size/speed based DCV (requiring BB players 
>to have a skill and skill levels to be able to hit said small, 
>high-speed object).  I realize this is going beyong vehicle stuff, but I 
>think said DCV rules are important for vehicle combat, and having them, 
>they should be translatable to other applications. 
>   Sorry I don't have any specifics, but I'm just an Idea Man.... 
 
 
 
base size dcv bonus on difference, maybe? as in, find the difference in size,  
find the dcv of an object that size, and use it as a bonus for the smaller craft?  
same can go for relative speed- to make it simple just compare MAX/spd,  
find the dcv value of the differnce and use it as a bonus for the faster craft. .  
Again these are relative numbers, given per pair of ships. .  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
> 
>--  
>   -Capt. Spith 
>   Savior of Humanity 
>   Secular Messiah 
> 
> 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 12:26:44 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
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At 09:29 AM 10/31/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>I hope your adaptation does some extensive adapting; as I recall, the Mass 
>Combat Rules had some major flaws to them. (I've never actually used them, 
>since I disliked them so much on reading those rules.)  
> 
>If you're getting into B5 style space combat, you may want to at least 
>mention inertia. While a Star Wars or Star Trek style spacecraft flies 
>like a plane, with engines always firing and facing the direction of 
>motion, B5 or more realistic SF craft have greater maneuvering options. 
> 
> 
 
count inertia as relative movement. . .. dexteritiy and speed is manuverabilitym, 
as well as covering concepts like inertial damping- B5 starfuries are actually LESS 
manuverable, because thay have to worry about g-forces, although the spinny-thingy  
aids in that. ..  
 
 
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 12:29:36 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
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At 09:59 AM 10/31/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>So, fix the rules for normals, then let people buy a normal vehicle and 
>soup them up. 
>a 50 point charcter can't own a car and have skills. that's just silly. 
 
 
50 pt c's are not SUPERHERIOC- like cops and agents they don't have to  
follow the rules fer all that. . .howeveri think rules which make loss of vehicles 
not a 'permanent' point loss is a very good idea- who's gonna spend pioints  
knowing that the gm can just take tham away?  
  
 
 
 
> 
>-------------------------Nez Master-------------------- 
>      Second founder of the backwards philosophy 
>	       http://www.ntr.net/~nezmaster 
>	    		Nothing is certain 
>_______________________________________________________ 
>	 
> 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 12:32:36 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:25 AM 10/31/97 -0800, you wrote: 
>   I have Combine in there, as a variant on Multiform (as borrowed from the 
>old Robot Warriors game based on 3rd Edition Hero).  Its strongest 
>precedent is from Transformers and Power Rangers. 
>   "Battle of the Planets"?  Is this a movie I missed in my research? 
 
*grumble* i just wanted to mention this again- what's wrong with  
having a 'combine' power for PEOPLE characters?  if this is  
precedent-setting, i think the 'treat a vehicle like any character' 
idea is a good thing to watch. . . 
 
 
 
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 12:34:49 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:14 AM 10/31/97 -0800, you wrote: 
>   If by mechas you're referring to those big things that we of the Not 
>Quite Middle Aged Generation call "giant robots," there's plenty there; in 
>fact, the book started out as The Ultimate Giant Robot. 
>   As for Rigging, you're talking about simply acting out the motions of a 
>giant robot to control the vehicle, right?  How would that be modeled in 
>Hero terms -- any ideas? 
 
just buy a mind-link with a computer on board. .  
 
 
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 12:37:50 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:02 AM 10/31/97 -0800, you wrote: 
> 
> 
>BTW: Battle of the Planets was a **REALLY** bad cartoon that appeared 
>briefly back in 82-83 timeframe...  If you can remember the phrase 
>"G-Force" or the name "Zoltar" <sp??> then you're heading in the right 
>direction.... <sigh> 
> 
 
hey! i remember g-force! and the original series (before those  
twonks with stripey pants joined) was not that bad. . and  
it wasn't really a combine- it was DOCKING. . as in the vehicle landed in another vehicle 
hmmm. . . 
 
 
>And here I thought that I had been able to completely forget about that 
>show... (:(: 
> 
>Duane. 
> 
> 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 12:40:10 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:16 PM 10/31/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>On 10/31/97 11:25 AM, Tim R. Gilberg (trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu) Said: 
> 
>>> So, fix the rules for normals, then let people buy a normal vehicle and 
>>> soup them up. 
>>> a 50 point charcter can't own a car and have skills. that's just silly. 
>> 
>>	Right.  For that reason, I've never charged for 'normal' vehicle 
>>with no real combat effect.  They're there for SFX.  One character had a 
>>sky blue Dodge Dart ('76, I believe).  My character had a Herley. 
> 
>Is there any reason you couldn't give everyone, say 25 "Everyman" points  
>for a personal vehicle? 
> 
 
as long as it wasn't combat-ready. . .. 
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 12:46:27 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:50 PM 10/31/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>In a word, SCALE.  I don't really care how it's done, but a giant robot 
>or a capital class starship should symbly be able to dish out a LOT more 
>damage than any hand held/mutant/battle suit can achieve.  The scale rules 
>were one of my favorite parts of the Star Wars RPG.  They are also  
>necessary 
>for things like the Argo, a Wave Motion Gun is not built on the same  
>active 
>point limits as a .45.  And making every super weapon a plot device tends  
>to 
>fly in the face of the genre.  In the campaing I'm currently in, we let 
>each level of growth add a DC to all attacks, which helps with normal  
>weapons 
>but still isn't a full answer. 
 
i utilised size as a limit to power- each power took up one  
hex per 10 active points as a base. . plus you could make it BIGGER  
for a limitation, netting ouy more points. . . . or smaller with and advantage. .  
 
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 12:53:40 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:30 PM 10/31/97 -0800, you wrote: 
>   This one goes into the "Well Duh" file (where I file stuff that someone 
>points out that I should've thought of already). 
> 
 
try to go by hex of space. . . i thought that life support should be bought with area effect (any, for all valid hexes) or else you've got a VERY important power for 
just 30 points. . . should be more expensive. .  
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 13:01:55 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV/jury-rig/VVP? 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:48 PM 10/31/97 -0800, you wrote: 
>>Same idea for cars. A few regular cars, a sports car, a jeep, a pickup, 
>>a semi, a bulldozer, a van, and a few others to discuss normal modern 
>>vehicles. A few old-timers and a few futuristic ones thrown in, too. 
> 
>   I'm going to have to keep this list handy to make sure I have at least 
>as much as you've just asked for.  In particular, I need to expand the list 
>of air and sea vessels to include more types and more detail; the SST and 
>the biplane specifically need to be put in (good suggestions, those). 
> 
 
 
what about wacky modifications? as in, something you can to to a normal  
vehicle on-the-fly (like jury-rigging a warp-drive into a space-shuttle,  
or putting runes of protection all over a lancaster bomber)? 
this would be a short-term option, but could be fun. . . 
 
also, what about a Variable Vehicle Pool? (to represent a whole workshop 
or bat-garage) it sound powerplay-ey, but i did it sucessfully with a 1-to-1 
points scale, and a looooong wait for point-replacemant. .  
 
 
 
 
 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 22:45:57 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Multilingual Telepathy? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Egyptoid@aol.com wrote: 
>  
> Enough Please! 
> Champions telepathy says "Mindi can talk to Brikki". end of sentence. 
 
Actually, the rulebook leaves a *huge* amount of grey area about  
telepathy. There is a clearly dilineated mechanism for determining  
whether Mindi can read Brikki's surface thoughts, deep thoughts  
subconscious thoughts or memories, but it is left entirely to the GM's  
discretion what the boundaries between these are, and how much  
information Mindi gains per unit of time. 
 
I think that having cultural, individual and situational differences  
affect the details of what comes through via telepathy is interesting,  
dramatic and can add to the game. 
 
> If you as GM want to make Mindii buy limitations on Telepathy 
> about language, brain structure, phylum, or the phase of the moon, 
> IYC I don't care.  
 
IMHO, all of these areas also fall within the legitimate bourne of the  
treatment of special effects.  Sometimes highlighting mental differences  
will make a telepathy *more* useful and sometimes it make it *less*  
useful. 
 
>             But please stop muddying the waters with your real world 
> physics or medicine. Don't try to make others overthink the rulebook and 
> make it say what it does not.  
 
No one is trying to make anyone do anything.  If you don't think that the  
discussion will help your GMing in your campaign, then don't follow the  
thread, or just skim it quickly to see if the discussion has veered back  
into an area of interest to you. 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 23:12:31 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com 
CC: hero-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> >>Is there any reason you couldn't give everyone, say 25 "Everyman" points 
> >>for a personal vehicle? 
> 
>    I'll supply the answers I would give; if someone else gives a suggestion 
> I like better, or if the list overwhelmingly likes a different take, I'll 
> change it. 
>    First off, though, on the table I have most Normal vehicles hover around 
> 20 points' worth, so that's how many Everyman points I'm recommending. 
> 
> 
> >5) How would you rule that the character with average wealth has the same 
> >amount of "Everyman" points to spend on a vehicle as, say, the son of an 
> >incredibly wealthy supporter of the Shadow Conspiracy holding a puppet 
> >government in Slovakia who has embezzled Billions of dollars from his 
> >father?  (A character in my current game...) 
> 
>    How about an option of simply adding the number of points spent on 
> Wealth to the number of Everyman points for Normal vehicles?  The vehicle 
> would still have to be a reasonably normal one, but it could have some 
> fancy perks like special licenses, a cellular phone, a built-in personal 
> computer, and the like (subject to the GM's approval).  That could give a 
> Filthy Rich character a pretty nice limo for 35 points. 
> 
 
    I like this idea. Weather or not it gets used, I think it just got added to 
my games...One more addition: a character withh poverty loses that many points 
from the base 20 
for the vehicle. So the poor guy ends up driving the old beat up chevy. :) 
 
 
 
> --- 
> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
> Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
 
-- 
Rook 
Also known as Arcady on #herochat, #Fuzionchat, #gurps, #V&V, 
and #SuperHeroChat in DALnet IRC 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 00:58:49 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Silly Vehicles (Was Re: Help with TUSV) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>  
> On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>  
> > Alone At Midnight piped up with: 
> > >Two words:  Swingmobile (A vechile with swinging???) 
> > > 
> > Gah. : )  Man, you're either a lunatic or a genius.  Or both. 
> > Anyway, the only way I could see it being done would be a mecha ("Giant 
> > Robot," Bob) built with that in mind...  Giant ArachniRobo!  or somesuch. 
> > Dave Mattingly already brought up the SpideyMobile, ferchrissakes... 
> > (Clinging). 
> > 
>  
> This kind of reminds me of the jeep used by my character Dr. Frog and his 
> sidekick, Toady. Toady was president of the Burt Ward fan club in his 
> secret ID, so naturally he called the vehicle the Frogmobile. Dr. Frog, 
> who thought the jeep was a little silly for the serious business of 
> crimefighting and amphibiology, preferred to call it the "Toad Truck." 
>  
> Anyway, the Frogmobile had a propelled grapple and winch Entangle referred 
> to as "the tongue," power jacks for Superleap, and inflatable tires for 
> water movement, making it ... amphibious. 
 
   For a brief time, Captain Spith found the need for mechanical 
transportation, so saved up a small pool of XP and bought the 
Spithmobile!  It was a DeLorean ('cause he absolutely adored the Back to 
the Future movies) with an armoured shell, flight, and no ground 
movement.  (No ground movement?!?)  He was into his "style over 
practicality" phase....  He also had a huge cannon on top which launched 
a mondo Entangle, but had so many limitations so as to make it nearly 
moot. 
 
   His love affair with his car lasted a few game months, then he traded 
it in for a sidekick (which lasted almost as long). 
   But, HEY, you've got my permission to put in a supplement if you want 
it!  >:-)> 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 01:29:16 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
(Geoffrey Speare said;) 
 
> >2) This probably means adding concepts like variable acceleration, 
> >deceleration, and turn modes (yeah, I know they are sort of already there) to 
> >the base HERO rules. Most of the times I see vehicles used in HERO combat, 
> >they see to a) accelerate too fast and b) turn too quickly. 
>  
>    I have put Acceleration and Deceleration in as vehicular Talents that 
> can even (at the GM's option) be allowed for regular characters.  In the 
> current draft it costs 2 points to raise either by 1" per segment, and 
> either or both may be bought down to a minimum of 1"  (A Deceleration of 0" 
> *could* be used in a comedy campaign.) 
>    I'll see what I can figure out as far as Turn Mode.  Anyone have any ideas? 
 
   I'm not sure about turn mode, but on a related tangent, I do have an 
opinion on noncombat movement.  In Champions 3rd edition (and before) 
the noncombat movement for flight had this funky formula involving 
active points, inches in flight, multiplying and adding and all that.  I 
LIKED it!  As far as I was able to interpret, it had the result of 
making limited flight (focussed or increased END or whatever) have a 
lower noncombat movement than flight bought with no limitations.  
Somehow, this spoke to something deep inside of me. 
 
   Anyway, we all know that noncombat movement in 4th edition is 2x 
combat movement, period.  For all movement types.  But I would like to 
see some form of this formula for the movement of vehicles, since 
vehicles (generally) move differently than individuals.  I like the idea 
that with vehicles, noncombat movement is significantly faster than 
combat movement.  If interested, I can find and post the formula (and my 
interpretation of its less than absolute specifics) from my Old Champs 
book. 
 
-- 
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 01:49:22 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Silly Vehicles (Was Re: Help with TUSV) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Donald Tsang wrote: 
>  
> >the Spithmobile!  It was a DeLorean ('cause he absolutely adored the 
> >Back to the Future movies) with an armoured shell, flight, and no ground 
> >movement.  (No ground movement?!?) 
>  
> Did it have a stall speed?  <g> 
 
   Actually.... no.  Picture the last scene in Back to the Future I.  It 
was basically VTOL, with the limitation that it had NO ability for 
ground movement; the wheels were simply there to be landing pads. 
   Well, I guess it could roll downhill or if pushed.... 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 15:35:25 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV (fwd) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>Headlights (and light sources in general) are one of the more awkward 
>things to do in Hero. Yes, they should be Change Environment, but that 
>gets rather expensive, especially if you want to light up more than one 
>hex. (And if your headlights only extend 1 hex, you'd better have an 
>awfully good driving roll...) Even making them fragile OAF, they tend to 
>cost more than they should. Most published vehicles don't bother listing 
>them, tossing them in as a special effect I suppose. I tend to "waste" 
>points in building them for my vehicles, but it bugs me when otehr 
>characters get them for free. TUSV is a good place to set a precedent, one 
>way or the other.    
> 
>And how about heating and air conditioning? What about my pine tree air 
>freshener??? And the 1 pip energy KA for the dash lighter????  
> 
If Bob does use Autoduel Champions, he could go with the simplification 
presented in there: they don't add to the cost of the base vehicle.  In 
AutoChamps, you purchase your vehicle, and the first things you decide on 
are (if memory serves, or it's close to Car Wars) the body type of the car, 
and then the chassis and suspension.  It was specifically stated (either 
here or in Car Wars) that headlights, car radios, and even standard CBs 
didn't cost extra...  (On that last one, standard CB-type radios are assumed 
to be in cars bought at dealerships.  Long Distance Radios cost, tho.)  So, 
this looks like things that are "standard" to all cars are free. 
 
This could probably be extended to other vehicles...  all of them could be 
assumed to have some sort of "running lights" and such, at no extra cost. 
Heating/AC, air fresheners, dash lighters, AM/FM radios/cassete players/CD 
players, headlights, adjustable seats...  yeah, I'd say they're all free. 
I'd also say that (getting back to Michael Surbrook's post) flashing blue 
(or blue and red, or red, or yellow) lights are a sfx...  you might just 
want to buy them as extra PRE, maybe, depending on the Reputation of the 
police dept.  The spotlight would probably be a CE (IMC, at least).  It 
allows you to create a lit area, which helps negate dark/night penalties... 
I'd also let a Dispell/Surpress v. Darkness work that way too... 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 15:41:11 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Acronyms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
qts wrote: 
>>But there isn't a set grammatical structure in Latin, so this could be 
>>rewritten, "Deus Est Mortuus..."  
> 
>Actually, there is - the verb comes at the end, and you usually have 
>Subject, clauses, Object, clauses, Verb. Unless you're writing poetry 
> 
Hmm.  I *had* noticed this in the three years that I was studying it... but 
my teacher insisted it wasn't *necessarily* so.  Even reading Cicero, I 
believe he mucked with the order *a lot*.  I don't see a problem in doing it 
here, especially if Cicero did it, or it was done in poetry, to make their 
speech more flowerly/elegant. 
So...  Deus Est Mortuus...  what? 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 15:56:53 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:09 PM 10/31/97, qts wrote: 
>Please don't forget things like the Triceratops saddle, or the 
>Raptor-drawn chariot, cloud castles on the Fantasy front and Jules 
>Verne style spaceships. Oh, and the Nautilus. 
> 
Wouldn't the first two be useless w/o write-ups of the Dinos?  But I like 
the point you made...  beast-propelled vehicles... 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 07:07:53 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: TUSV - Added features 
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org" 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
   Nitro boots, ramprows, and Chevy's with wings; 
    These are a few of my favorite things... 
 
        Where does he get those wonderful toys?  The answer: 
A corporation?  A follower?  A contact?  Who knows?  Still, your 
average supervechile riding hero needs someone to main 
tain his 
hunk-o-junk. 
	What about 'nefarious vechile villans'?  I always liked the 
concept of possessed vechiles (make it an old rusty WWII tank)! 
What about biker gangs, car jackers, and chop-shop theives?  How 
about an 'on street/black market' chart that gives a rough estimate 
of how much a SV would sell for...  (Chico, man!  When I say it has flames 
on the side, man, I mean it _really_ has flames on the side!) 
	And how about average people that mainatin vechiles?  Organizations 
that make SV...  Maintainence droids... 
	 
...and remember, there's always a Gremlin nestled in every B-52 
bomber that would *love* to mess with an SV.  (>:{= 
	Gadgets.  Smoke screens, oil slicks, caltrops, those little whizzy 
blades, nitro boots, turbo boosts, ram prows, 'smart bots' that launch behind 
a vechile and zoom under another and go *boom*, gatling guns, zero- 
inertia drives, lazer proof coating, air bags (how about some crashing 
rules for injury while your inside the thing), cup holders, neat 
kinds of tires, fuzzy dice, security systems (*ZOT* !OucH!). 
	Rules for 'tricks'...  not too sure about what types of things 
you can do in a car or plane.  Might want to surf for stunt driving. 
	Well, I'm, 
 
 
					-Jason Sullivan 
 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 97 09:07:49 -0500 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Jeremiah Driscoll jdriscol@vt.edu 10/31/97 4:00 PM 
 
>michael jones wrote: 
>>count inertia as relative movement. . .. dexteritiy and speed is 
>>manuverabilitym, as well as covering concepts like inertial damping-  
>>B5 starfuries are actually LESS manuverable, because thay have to  
>>worry about g-forces, although the spinny-thingy aids in that. ..  
>> 
>I don't see how inertia is relative movement...  and while I agree  
>that DEX and SPD represent manueverability to an extent (esp. DEX),  
>I'm not sure how it covers inertial damping.  Could you explain? 
>I also could argue that the B5 ships are more manueverable, because  
>they can rapidly change trajectories... but I assume they give up  
>speed over a comparable technological equivalent true fighter (like  
>the X-Wing).  Just like comparing a Harrier and an F-15.  It would  
>also depend on ones definition of "manueverable."  I also think that  
>X-Wings had to worry about g-forces, or they would have an infinitely  
>tight turn mode...  if I'm wrong on this, I'm sorry, but the same  
>g-forces should apply to either Star Wars ships or B5 ships... 
 
 
NOTE: THERE"S A B5 SPOILER IMBEDDED IN THIS FOR SEASON 4.  IF YOU HAVEN'T  
SEEN THE FINALE AND CARE ABOUT SUCH THINGS DON'T READ ANY FURTHER... 
 
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!! 
 
The X-Wing used inertial damping and could basically ignore g-force  
constraints, at least as far as the pilots were concerned.  The X-Wing  
series of books talks abount this actually being a problem sence the  
pilots can't always "feel" what's happening the way they should.  It's  
all based on the premise of artifical gravity.  Star Furies don't have  
any comparable system as Earthforce doesn't have AG until after the 4th  
season (at least based on the new Alliance treaty presented so far...).   
X-Wings also appear to be a LOT more manuverable based on the X-Wing  
Books, and sence Lucas still approves everything I'd take those as 
cannon. 
 
All those specifics aside, a way of dealing with inertia, particularly  
the pilot's tendancy to pass out at high Gs, would be useful in more  
"realistic" vehicles. 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 06:19:59 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Silly Vehicles (Was Re: Help with TUSV) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 04:51 PM 10/31/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>This kind of reminds me of the jeep used by my character Dr. Frog and his 
>sidekick, Toady. Toady was president of the Burt Ward fan club in his 
>secret ID, so naturally he called the vehicle the Frogmobile. Dr. Frog, 
>who thought the jeep was a little silly for the serious business of 
>crimefighting and amphibiology, preferred to call it the "Toad Truck." 
> 
>Anyway, the Frogmobile had a propelled grapple and winch Entangle referred 
>to as "the tongue," power jacks for Superleap, and inflatable tires for 
>water movement, making it ... amphibious. 
 
   Years ago, a played alongside a teammate whose classically 
not-too-bright brick character named Thumper.  You see, had decided that, 
since he was going to be a superhero, he had to get a costume, and went to 
get it at a costume shop.  The only thing left in his size was a big pink 
bunny costume and, well, you can probably guess the rest. 
   Anyway, before long he decided he needed a car, so the Thumpermobile 
made its appearance.  This was a VW Rabbit modified (you're way ahead of me 
on this, aren't you?) so that, instead of rolling around on wheels, it hopped. 
   I wasn't the GM in that one, but I probably would have insisted that 
that car be Hunted by the County Roads Department. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 06:55:32 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 09:52 PM 10/31/97 +2, Ori Folger wrote: 
>>    If by mechas you're referring to those big things that we of the Not 
>> Quite Middle Aged Generation call "giant robots," there's plenty there; in 
>> fact, the book started out as The Ultimate Giant Robot. 
> 
>Oh, goodie. Please make sure that the Transformers are mentioned  
>somewhere (even though they're not really vehicles, more like  
>vehicle-shaped androids).  
 
   You will be pleased.   :-] 
 
>>    As for Rigging, you're talking about simply acting out the motions of a 
>> giant robot to control the vehicle, right?  How would that be modeled in 
>> Hero terms -- any ideas? 
> 
>Well, rigging is for normal vehicles mostly, although the idea fits  
>giant robots perfectly. I think that the way to do it is to give  
>skill levels with combat driving with the limitations appropiate to a  
>link to your brain (requires input port install in brain, for  
>example). But rigging can be even better. What you are really doing  
>in rigging is possessing the vehicle. You see what the vehicle sees,  
>you actually feel yourself moving around in the dirt, speeding to  
>100mph, etc. This could be a package of powers, like Extra Senses and  
>maybe a DEX bonus (your reactions are much faster than those of a  
>normal driver). Also, the big advantage of rigging is that you  
>control your vehicle from afar, requiring a Range advantage on combat  
>driving. 
 
   My thought on this (short form) is to treat it as a Multiform for the 
character, with the vehicle itself as a Bulky OIF. 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 07:02:21 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Mass Combat 
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At 11:37 AM 10/31/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>>   2) I'm including an adaptation of the Mass Combat Rules (from the 
>>Fantasy Hero Companion) for vehicle combat (like on Bablyon 5).  Does 
>>anyone have any additional rules or ideas that might be helpful? 
> 
>There was an earlier version of the Mass Combat Rules that would be of 
>more use, IMHO. In one of the first 6 or 7 Adventurer's Clubs, they 
>created rules for treating 2 to 8 homogenous characters (like agents, 
>soldiers, police, etc.) as a single character. It involved charts 
>showing what kind of "to hit" roll you would get from having, say, 6 
>8- to hit rolls, as opposed to 1, and how many extra hits you would 
>get from rolling below that number. 
> 
>The advantages are several: 
> 
>1) Single vehicles, such as those run by characters, can be treated 
>individually, allowing them to influence the battle. 
> 
>2) Multiple vehicles can be run using the same rules as individual 
>characters, such as a superteam fighting an assault from space. 
 
   This is as opposed to the existing Mass Combat rules? 
 
>3) You will rarely too many vehicles to use in this fashion, thus 
>requiring the mass combat rules. Two fleets of eighty vehicles each 
>can be run as two groups of ten characters, and would be considered a 
>very large battle. Most battles would be much smaller. 
 
   I think that's supposed to be the point of any Mass Combat system. 
 
>4) Most people hate the mass combat rules. 
 
   This last one is the main reason I put forth the call for suggestions on 
this topic in particular.  I want a New and Improved version that people 
can find more tolerable.  If I end up with no solid options but to just put 
in a direct adaptation, then that's what I'll do, but I'd like to see 
something smoother. 
   If I can get a copy of those older Mass Combat rules, what will appear 
in TUSV will probably be something of a synthesis of the two.  Even that, 
though, depends on what the rules in that old AC look like. 
 
>I don't know for certain which Adventurer's Club that is in. I lost 
>mine years ago (stolen), and I've never seen it since. You might want 
>to check with Bruce Harlick. Actually, I think I will- I loved those 
>rules. 
 
   I have a place or two I could check before turning to Bruce.  For that 
matter, once he sees it in my manuscript, he may want it altered, and 
forward me those older rules on his own.  (I'm not going to depend on that, 
though; in fact, there's a place I can check into today that has some old 
AC's on the shelf.) 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 07:07:59 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Help with TUSV 
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At 03:40 PM 10/31/97 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>I think using the previous books is a must... especially the "current" 
>stuff.  The Champions II conversion thing sounds great, and seems to be what 
>several other people have asked for as well.  Now, about Autoduel 
>Champions...  I've also played Car Wars before, and found AC to be more 
>geared towards that side of the house...  I believe (I don't have it at 
>school with me; it's at home with my CW stuff) that only the characters were 
>bought with points, tho, and the vehicles were bought with money (like in 
>CW).  It really seemed much less like the Hero system than the Car Wars 
>system grafted onto Hero.  And it probably was, as SJG was going to port 
>their Car Wars game world to GURPS anyway.  In summation, I think the most 
>useful thing you would get out of the book (for YOUR book, anyway) might be 
>stats for vehicular weaponry, and perhaps some minor ides on turn 
>mode/handling class (although that would probably muck with the manuscript 
>you already had). 
 
   Actually, once I get a copy, I plan to pirate out anything I can figure 
out how to adapt.  I haven't actually looked at it at all since about a 
year after its debut, so any memories of it are fuzzy, but it seems to me 
that there's just a little more than what you say that might be useful (I'm 
thinking here of stuff that can go into the chapter on Campaigning). 
   I might even figure out a way to adapt the money system for buying 
vehicles to something acceptable to 4th ed players. 
 
>Good luck with this, really, you deserve to be writing for Hero... (I mean 
>that in a *good*, way...) 
 
   Thanks.   :-] 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 07:45:50 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
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At 03:53 PM 10/31/97 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>>Is there any reason you couldn't give everyone, say 25 "Everyman" points  
>>for a personal vehicle? 
>> 
>Wow.  That's wonderfully simple.  And I really really like it.  But it 
>raises a few questions: 
 
   I'll supply the answers I would give; if someone else gives a suggestion 
I like better, or if the list overwhelmingly likes a different take, I'll 
change it. 
   First off, though, on the table I have most Normal vehicles hover around 
20 points' worth, so that's how many Everyman points I'm recommending. 
 
>1) Are these vehicles limited to "real world" vehicles, or at least vehicles 
>that the are available to the public in the game world?  (This is to prevent 
>characters with a high-tech background getting a really useful flying 
>vehicle or... ugh ...even an XDM vehicle for "free.") 
 
   "Normal" vehicles only, like one can buy at a dealership.  Not even a 
mundane armored car.  In most modern-day campaigns, this means either an 
automobile or a motorcycle (or maybe a minivan).  Once it starts becoming 
"super," even if the means is something doable in the real world (say, 
bulletproof plating and windows, or machine guns mounted over the 
headlights), the character must pay full price for the entire vehicle. 
   However, in a futuristic campaign, it might be normal for everyone to 
have a hovercar or hovercycle, so those vehicles would be available as 
Everyman vehicles. 
 
>2) Which type of "Everyman" points are these?  The ones that may be improved 
>upon (like Native Language, PS, and KS) or the ones that have to be "bought 
>over" (like Stealth, Concealment, et al)?  (Thanks to Robert West for 
>pointing out the difference.) 
 
   The former, as long as it's a normal vehicle.  As stated above, if the 
vehicle becomes "super," full point cost must be paid. 
 
>3) I assume, then, that "unused" Everyman points for the Vehicle are lost? 
 
   Yes. 
 
>4) Would the "Everyman" Transport Familiarity automatically reflect this 
>choice of vehicle?  I know that, in a Superheroic game, you don't have to 
>spend points to be familiar with items you payed points for...  but these 
>are "Everyman" points, after all. 
 
   Yes. 
 
>5) How would you rule that the character with average wealth has the same 
>amount of "Everyman" points to spend on a vehicle as, say, the son of an 
>incredibly wealthy supporter of the Shadow Conspiracy holding a puppet 
>government in Slovakia who has embezzled Billions of dollars from his 
>father?  (A character in my current game...) 
 
   How about an option of simply adding the number of points spent on 
Wealth to the number of Everyman points for Normal vehicles?  The vehicle 
would still have to be a reasonably normal one, but it could have some 
fancy perks like special licenses, a cellular phone, a built-in personal 
computer, and the like (subject to the GM's approval).  That could give a 
Filthy Rich character a pretty nice limo for 35 points. 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 07:50:05 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
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At 04:08 PM 10/31/97 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>Alone At Midnight piped up with: 
>>Two words:  Swingmobile (A vechile with swinging???) 
>> 
>Gah. : )  Man, you're either a lunatic or a genius.  Or both. 
 
   I saw this and added an entry in the book.  If a player wants it, then 
it should be allowed, but remove all sharp objects from the room.  (He can 
do his character sheet on the computer, or with crayons!) 
 
>Anyway, the only way I could see it being done would be a mecha ("Giant 
>Robot," Bob) built with that in mind...  Giant ArachniRobo!  or somesuch. 
 
   While the Frogmobile's been brought up, and the most vivid visualization 
I have is of three giant robots swinging through the Grand Canyon like 
Spiderman (and the second is of Tarzan gone high-tech in a "swing harness" 
while he reads the Kinshasa Daily News), there are probably some legitimate 
vehicular applications for this. 
 
>Dave Mattingly already brought up the SpideyMobile, ferchrissakes... 
>(Clinging). 
 
   Ground vehicles in fiction have been known to drive straight up walls. 
Any examples escape me at the moment, but I'm sure I've seen it done.... 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 08:05:03 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: RE: Help with TUSV 
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At 07:01 PM 10/31/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>>   I don't know that I'll be including this as a sample vehicle... 
> 
>Alright, I have two more words for you: 
> Stiltmobile 
> (Yes, this technically is _one_ word.) 
 
   Hm.  Didn't TEEHEE, the CLOWN car, have something like this? 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 08:16:32 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
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At 01:29 AM 11/1/97 -0800, Captain Spith wrote: 
>   I'm not sure about turn mode, but on a related tangent, I do have an 
>opinion on noncombat movement.  In Champions 3rd edition (and before) 
>the noncombat movement for flight had this funky formula involving 
>active points, inches in flight, multiplying and adding and all that.  I 
>LIKED it!  As far as I was able to interpret, it had the result of 
>making limited flight (focussed or increased END or whatever) have a 
>lower noncombat movement than flight bought with no limitations.  
>Somehow, this spoke to something deep inside of me. 
> 
>   Anyway, we all know that noncombat movement in 4th edition is 2x 
>combat movement, period.  For all movement types.  But I would like to 
>see some form of this formula for the movement of vehicles, since 
>vehicles (generally) move differently than individuals.  I like the idea 
>that with vehicles, noncombat movement is significantly faster than 
>combat movement.  If interested, I can find and post the formula (and my 
>interpretation of its less than absolute specifics) from my Old Champs 
>book. 
 
   Go ahead and do so.  I think it'd be an option that at least some Hero 
GMs would be interesting in using. 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 08:26:31 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: jury-rig/VVP 
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At 01:01 PM 11/1/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
>At 12:48 PM 10/31/97 -0800, you wrote: 
>>>Same idea for cars. A few regular cars, a sports car, a jeep, a pickup, 
>>>a semi, a bulldozer, a van, and a few others to discuss normal modern 
>>>vehicles. A few old-timers and a few futuristic ones thrown in, too. 
>> 
>>   I'm going to have to keep this list handy to make sure I have at least 
>>as much as you've just asked for.  In particular, I need to expand the list 
>>of air and sea vessels to include more types and more detail; the SST and 
>>the biplane specifically need to be put in (good suggestions, those). 
> 
>what about wacky modifications? as in, something you can to to a normal  
>vehicle on-the-fly (like jury-rigging a warp-drive into a space-shuttle,  
>or putting runes of protection all over a lancaster bomber)? 
>this would be a short-term option, but could be fun. . . 
 
   I'm definitely going to have to put in some guidelines on jury-rigging 
(if I didn't already and am now just forgetting about it). 
 
>also, what about a Variable Vehicle Pool? (to represent a whole workshop 
>or bat-garage) it sound powerplay-ey, but i did it sucessfully with a 1-to-1 
>points scale, and a looooong wait for point-replacemant. .  
 
   A VPP for Vehicles?  I'd have to leave that to GM judgement.  I wouldn't 
advise it in general, and its application would be so "grey" that I'd have 
to leave it in the hands of the GM (unless you have some good guidelines 
for it). 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 08:36:35 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV - Added features 
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At 07:07 AM 11/1/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
> What about 'nefarious vechile villans'?  I always liked the 
>concept of possessed vechiles (make it an old rusty WWII tank)! 
 
   Maybe I will indeed build a "Spook Tank" from the M-1 Abrams in HSA2, 
and stick it in the Sample Characters. 
 
>What about biker gangs, car jackers, and chop-shop theives?  How 
>about an 'on street/black market' chart that gives a rough estimate 
>of how much a SV would sell for...  (Chico, man!  When I say it has flames 
>on the side, man, I mean it _really_ has flames on the side!) 
 
   Hot dang!  More stuff for the "Campaigning" Chapter!  (That one has been 
pretty thin from the start.) 
 
> And how about average people that mainatin vechiles?  Organizations 
>that make SV...  Maintainence droids... 
 
   The "average people" is a good idea. 
   I have a couple dozen or so Corporations (most culled from the 
Corporations book) that build vehicles, weapons, and other stuff. 
   I do have some words on maintenance droids here and there. 
 
>...and remember, there's always a Gremlin nestled in every B-52 
>bomber that would *love* to mess with an SV.  (>:{= 
 
   Unluck. 
 
> Gadgets.  Smoke screens, oil slicks, caltrops, those little whizzy 
>blades, nitro boots, turbo boosts, ram prows, 'smart bots' that launch behind 
>a vechile and zoom under another and go *boom*, gatling guns, zero- 
>inertia drives, lazer proof coating, air bags (how about some crashing 
>rules for injury while your inside the thing), cup holders, neat 
>kinds of tires, fuzzy dice, security systems (*ZOT* !OucH!). 
 
   I'd rule that cup holders and fuzzy dice are Special Effects.  Most of 
the rest I have managed to squeeze in there (this is already a 300+ page 
manuscript), though I can't quite work out the tires and like the rest of 
the Hero universe I'm not sure about the best way to build an oil slick 
short of a whole new Power (which, strictly speaking, would be the purview 
of a different book). 
   I have just recently realized that I'm going to have to do some extra 
work for "mini" vehicles like jetboots, hoverboards, and the like. 
 
> Rules for 'tricks'...  not too sure about what types of things 
>you can do in a car or plane.  Might want to surf for stunt driving. 
 
   I've borrowed a lot of the combat driving rules from An Eye For An Eye. 
I'll have to double check to see if there's something for ramp jumps, 
though.... 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 08:39:49 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Rigging 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 05:04 PM 10/31/97 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote: 
>Hi Bob, 
> 
>I'd distinguish between 'rigging' and 'remote control'.  'Rigging' in the  
>cyberpunk sense means that the driver is somehow connected to the vehicle 
>so that controlling the vehicle becomes as automatic as controlling the  
>driver's own body.  That's the 'special effect'.  The game effect should 
>be that a driver using a 'vehicle control rig' would be superior to a 
>driver not using a 'vehicle control rig'.   
 
   I'm getting multiple interpretations on the term "rigging." 
   If you're just talking about linking the operator's brain to the 
vehicle, that's in there, as Mind Link. 
   If you're talking about actually experiencing the vehicle as though it 
was the operator's body, that's now in there too, as Multiform. 
   I've gotten that it's not Remote Operation, but that is a separate 
question. 
 
>'Remote control' is of course driving a vehicle without being in it. 
>This could be done with a 'vehicle control rig' for the improved handling 
>but doesn't HAVE to be.  (Think remote control rig for radio-controlled 
>toys.)   
> 
>Actually, because of the time lag, I'd guess that 'remote control' would 
>offer driving/piloting performance WORSE than being in the vehicle... 
 
   That depends on the setup, of course.... 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 08:42:06 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Remote Control 
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At 03:31 PM 10/31/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>On Friday, October 31, 1997 1:58 PM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>   I still have to work out vehicular Remote Control.  It's a question 
>>that's been stumping me for quite some time. 
> 
>Create a brand new power. That's what they did for spirits in the HA1. 
 
   What I'm thinking of for Remote Control is this:  The vehicle must have 
an onboard computer, and the remote control device (whether hand-held, 
implanted in the brain, or whatever) is done as a radio Mind Link.  The 
control tells the computer what to do, and the computer does it. 
   Since that's a fairly close model of what actually does happen (in a 
way, even on radio-controlled models), I think it's probably the best. 
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Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:40:54 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Remote Control 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    What I'm thinking of for Remote Control is this:  The vehicle must have 
> an onboard computer, and the remote control device (whether hand-held, 
> implanted in the brain, or whatever) is done as a radio Mind Link.  The 
> control tells the computer what to do, and the computer does it. 
>    Since that's a fairly close model of what actually does happen (in a 
> way, even on radio-controlled models), I think it's probably the best. 
 
I like that approach, though you may want to mention that the "computer" 
need not be a literal silicon chip machine, but rather is a reflection of 
some kind of information-processing cabability, whether magical, organic, 
or technological. Remote controlled vehicles, after all, might include the 
Silver Surfer's board, flying carpets, spaceships with organic brains, 
etc. (An organic brain doesn't even have to be sentient - Cordwainer Smith 
had a lot of technology controlled by freeze-dried animal brains.) 
 
 
 
 
 
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:57:37 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> >Dave Mattingly already brought up the SpideyMobile, ferchrissakes... 
> >(Clinging). 
>  
>    Ground vehicles in fiction have been known to drive straight up walls. 
> Any examples escape me at the moment, but I'm sure I've seen it done.... 
 
At the moment, I am tinkering with adaptions of the cast of Masamune 
Shirow's "Dominion".  One of the write-ups is for 'Bonaparte', a 
police department mini-tank.  Anyway, Bonaparte has demonstrated the 
ability to drive up the side of a building, provided there are two walls 
close enough for it to fit between.  It has also driven up inside an 
elevator shaft.   
 
Speaking of TUV, I have always felt that the focus limitaion for equipment 
inside a vehicle to be a bit of a cop-out.  Granted, anything I post to 
this list uses such rules (since I'm shooting for 'vanilla' adaptions 
after all), but is an IIF really worth -3/4 on a vehicle?  The vehicle 
designs I wrote up for my Kazei Five book (also due to go to Hero Games by 
December 31)  dropped Focus limitations for anything that was considered 
internal gear. Extrernal devices still received the standard Focus 
limitations, however. 
 
I have also felt an expanded set of vehicle specific limitations would be 
nice.  Such ideas as extended start-up time (for certain planes), no easy 
access (like tanks), rare or unusual fuels (like rockets) should be 
discussed. 
 
And how about better definitions of standard vehicle equipment?  Like your 
typcial police car?  It has a radio, computer, spotlight, loudpspeaker 
(sometimes), headlights, radar gun, lightbar and siren... 
 
How would one go about defining all of this in Hero terms? 
 
Currently, some of this (spot, headlights nad lights and siren can be 
considered Change Environment (or Images), but some examples of real world 
gear would be nice. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
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Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:58:43 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: RE: Help with TUSV 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> At 07:01 PM 10/31/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
> >>   I don't know that I'll be including this as a sample vehicle... 
> > 
> >Alright, I have two more words for you: 
> > Stiltmobile 
> > (Yes, this technically is _one_ word.) 
>  
>    Hm.  Didn't TEEHEE, the CLOWN car, have something like this? 
 
Don't go there!  Just... don't. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 13:20:14 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
Here's anotther tricky vehicle thing that could be addressed: vehicles 
with vehicles. If I want a big starship with smaller shuttlecraft, or even 
just escape pods, do I buy all vessels as separate vehicles, or does the 
starship pay for the shuttles, thereby giving me the 5 for 1 cost break 
twice?  
 
Also, I'd love to see a consistent way of handling limited fuel. I do fuel 
capacity as a Physical Limitation, myself. 
 
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 15:05:02 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV (fwd) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Hmmm... I think this was supposed to go to the list at large. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
---------- Forwarded message ---------- 
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 13:47:10 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
 
 
 
On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
>  
> And how about better definitions of standard vehicle equipment?  Like your 
> typcial police car?  It has a radio, computer, spotlight, loudpspeaker 
> (sometimes), headlights, radar gun, lightbar and siren... 
>  
... 
> Currently, some of this (spot, headlights nad lights and siren can be 
> considered Change Environment (or Images), but some examples of real world 
> gear would be nice. 
>  
  
Headlights (and light sources in general) are one of the more awkward 
things to do in Hero. Yes, they should be Change Environment, but that 
gets rather expensive, especially if you want to light up more than one 
hex. (And if your headlights only extend 1 hex, you'd better have an 
awfully good driving roll...) Even making them fragile OAF, they tend to 
cost more than they should. Most published vehicles don't bother listing 
them, tossing them in as a special effect I suppose. I tend to "waste" 
points in building them for my vehicles, but it bugs me when otehr 
characters get them for free. TUSV is a good place to set a precedent, one 
way or the other.    
 
And how about heating and air conditioning? What about my pine tree air 
freshener??? And the 1 pip energy KA for the dash lighter????  
   
 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Mass Combat 
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 13:05:32 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
On Saturday, November 01, 1997 8:20 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
 
>At 11:37 AM 10/31/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
<snip> 
>>2) Multiple vehicles can be run using the same rules as individual 
>>characters, such as a superteam fighting an assault from space. 
> 
>   This is as opposed to the existing Mass Combat rules? 
 
I have very little familiarity with the existing Mass Combat rules, 
but I was under the impression that they were mass combat _only_. Your 
character was just part of the mob. I may be remebering an older 
version of those rules. If I am wrong, then I'd better look at them 
again. 
 
At the very least, I've gotten the impression that the characters 
won't be the very distinct and possibly battle changing individual 
that they could be. 
 
>>3) You will rarely too many vehicles to use in this fashion, thus 
>>requiring the mass combat rules. Two fleets of eighty vehicles each 
>>can be run as two groups of ten characters, and would be considered 
a 
>>very large battle. Most battles would be much smaller. 
> 
>   I think that's supposed to be the point of any Mass Combat system. 
 
Sorry. What I meant was that a battle between two groups of 80 
vehicles is large. I suppose that if you want to lay out very large 
battles you will want the full Mass Combat rules, but if you want 
battles where the character's are a significant part, you will 
frequently need a smaller scale. These rules offered a good one. 
 
<snip> 
>>I don't know for certain which Adventurer's Club that is in. I lost 
>>mine years ago (stolen), and I've never seen it since. You might 
want 
>>to check with Bruce Harlick. Actually, I think I will- I loved those 
>>rules. 
> 
>   I have a place or two I could check before turning to Bruce.  For 
that 
>matter, once he sees it in my manuscript, he may want it altered, and 
>forward me those older rules on his own.  (I'm not going to depend on 
that, 
>though; in fact, there's a place I can check into today that has some 
old 
>AC's on the shelf.) 
 
Hero Games still offers old Adventurer's Clubs for sale. 
Unfortunately, of the first ten or so, one is missing- number five I 
believe. I have a strong feeling that's the one it is in- I haven't 
seen that one in years. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: TUSV - Added features 
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 13:16:46 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Saturday, November 01, 1997 8:20 AM Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>At 07:07 AM 11/1/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
<snip> 
>>...and remember, there's always a Gremlin nestled in every B-52 
>>bomber that would *love* to mess with an SV.  (>:{= 
> 
>   Unluck. 
> 
 
And Luck. IIRC, gremlins were noted for holding the B-52 together in 
real emergencies, allowing them to continue flying when they should 
fall to the ground. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:18:47 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>after all), but is an IIF really worth -3/4 on a vehicle?  The vehicle 
>designs I wrote up for my Kazei Five book (also due to go to Hero Games by 
>December 31)  dropped Focus limitations for anything that was considered 
>internal gear. Extrernal devices still received the standard Focus 
>limitations, however. 
 
Hey, allright! Is that just for evaluation or have they committed to print yet? 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"You know, I feel pretty good." 
"Yeah, me too. I've got a real positive attitude." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:25:37 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Acronyms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
> So...  Deus Est Mortuus...  what? 
 
I'll make an attempt with my one semester of Latin, taken over 10 years 
ago: 
 
Deus Est Mortuus Offendemus Nunc 
 
(I was trying for "God is dead, we strike now." Did I succeed?) 
 
The "O-N" could also be "omni" something. 
 
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV (fwd) 
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 17:36:55 -0500 (EST) 
Organization: VTSFFC 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
  Other things that don't resolve well at the Champs scale:  how 
do you represent the off-road capabilities of a station wagon vs. 
a jeep vs a Hummer vs a tank?  On the rare occasions it's come up, 
we usually end up saying that a better off-road ability is bought 
as a higher STR for the vehicle and the GM fudges road conditions  
as necessary.       
 
                                           Daniel Pawtowski 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 15:02:21 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV: Mass Combat 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:37 AM 10/31/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>>   2) I'm including an adaptation of the Mass Combat Rules (from the 
>>Fantasy Hero Companion) for vehicle combat (like on Bablyon 5).  Does 
>>anyone have any additional rules or ideas that might be helpful? 
> 
>There was an earlier version of the Mass Combat Rules that would be of 
>more use, IMHO. In one of the first 6 or 7 Adventurer's Clubs, they 
>created rules for treating 2 to 8 homogenous characters (like agents, 
>soldiers, police, etc.) as a single character. It involved charts 
>showing what kind of "to hit" roll you would get from having, say, 6 
>8- to hit rolls, as opposed to 1, and how many extra hits you would 
>get from rolling below that number. 
> 
>The advantages are several: 
> 
>1) Single vehicles, such as those run by characters, can be treated 
>individually, allowing them to influence the battle. 
> 
>2) Multiple vehicles can be run using the same rules as individual 
>characters, such as a superteam fighting an assault from space. 
 
   This is as opposed to the existing Mass Combat rules? 
 
>3) You will rarely too many vehicles to use in this fashion, thus 
>requiring the mass combat rules. Two fleets of eighty vehicles each 
>can be run as two groups of ten characters, and would be considered a 
>very large battle. Most battles would be much smaller. 
 
   I think that's supposed to be the point of any Mass Combat system. 
 
>4) Most people hate the mass combat rules. 
 
   This last one is the main reason I put forth the call for suggestions on 
this topic in particular.  I want a New and Improved version that people 
can find more tolerable.  If I end up with no solid options but to just put 
in a direct adaptation, then that's what I'll do, but I'd like to see 
something smoother. 
   If I can get a copy of those older Mass Combat rules, what will appear 
in TUSV will probably be something of a synthesis of the two.  Even that, 
though, depends on what the rules in that old AC look like. 
 
>I don't know for certain which Adventurer's Club that is in. I lost 
>mine years ago (stolen), and I've never seen it since. You might want 
>to check with Bruce Harlick. Actually, I think I will- I loved those 
>rules. 
 
   I have a place or two I could check before turning to Bruce.  For that 
matter, once he sees it in my manuscript, he may want it altered, and 
forward me those older rules on his own.  (I'm not going to depend on that, 
though; in fact, there's a place I can check into today that has some old 
AC's on the shelf.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 17:32:26 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Help with TUSV 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Happyelf said; 
 
> Captain Spith said; 
> >   Also, (I don't have my book handy, so can't refresh my memory) 
> >concerning Dogfight rules, definitely establish Size and Speed DCV 
> >modifiers which (here comes the important part) can be easily translated 
> >to other types of objects.  Like a character flying non-combat that 
> >would not have a DEX-based DCV, but rather a velocity-related DCV. 
    <....> 
> >   Sorry I don't have any specifics, but I'm just an Idea Man.... 
  
> base size dcv bonus on difference, maybe? as in, find the difference in size, 
> find the dcv of an object that size, and use it as a bonus for the smaller craft? 
> same can go for relative speed- to make it simple just compare MAX/spd, 
> find the dcv value of the differnce and use it as a bonus for the faster craft. . 
> Again these are relative numbers, given per pair of ships. . 
 
   Actually size relative DCV mods is how I've always treated characters 
as well; Two characters with Growth at different levels interact as if 
one was normal size and the other had growth equal to the difference 
between them.  (5 levels G. vs. 3 levels G. = 2 levels G. vs. normal).  
Come to think of it, all the groeth and shrinking mods would pretty much 
cover my original point of having 'size-based DCV mods' in the first 
place (Duh! on me, I guess).  And perhaps the velocity-based DCV mods 
would be related to the modifications from move-throughs.  I see the OCV 
penelty on MT (-v/5) as representative of the penalty for 
_relative_velocity_.  The 'target' would have the same penalty to hit 
the movethrougher (glossed over in the static DCV penalty), modified by 
any setting/bracing or other immobile bonus options.  Thus the relative 
velocity between vehicle combatants should work the same, or at least 
mostly the same... 
 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 


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