Week Ending November 15, 1997

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Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 04:47:43 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
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At 08:16 PM 11/3/97 -0800, scott2k@gte.net wrote: 
>> > If someone wants to be denser without being more resistant to killing 
>> > attacks, he's got the wrong idea. Imagine the Thing bleeding cuz some 
>punk 
>> > stuck him with a knife, or Obsidian.  
>> >  
>>  
>> Obsidian and The Thing both have the powers "Made of tougher, denser 
>material 
>> than ordinary flesh".  To simulate that in champs, you need *more* than  
>> just Density Increase.  Density Increase handles the "Denser" part.  
>> It doens't handle the "tougher" part very well.  To do that, you  
>> need to add Damage Resistance.  
> <snip> 
>Exactly my point, it doesn't accurately reflect the power in question. If 
>you are denser, you are more resistant to killing attacks, such as knives, 
>lasers, etc. It's just a simple fact of physics that the denser something 
>is, the more difficult it is to penetrate.  
> 
Well, I really wasn't agreeing with your point, and I noted (where you 
snipped) an example or two that *didn't* fit your definition.  Your 
definition works for *a* power.  But that power is a mix of two or more 
Powers in the book. 
 
>P.S.- What's a Shoggoth??? 
> 
Why are you asking me?  Look it up in your own copy of the Necronomicon! 
 
- Jerry 
 
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Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 04:56:37 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Parabolic and other old Senses (was Re: Dear ChampionPersons) 
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At 12:47 AM 11/8/97 -0800, Capt. Spith wrote: 
>Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>> Well, my softcover non-Deluxe BBB doesn't have this ability either, nor the 
>> reference.  But my "Revised Edition" Champions book has Parabolic Hearing: 
>> "Allows a character to define a point at a distance and hear as if the point 
>> were 1/5 the distance away.  Parabolic Hearing may be bought more than once 
>> (the second time, distance is 1/25, third time distance is 1/125, etc.). 
>> Cost = 15 pts." 
>> It think this became absorbed by Telescopic when it was extended to any 
sense... 
> 
>   That sounds like 3rd edition... I don't have my book with me, but I 
>believe Parabolic Hearing and some other senses from 3rd and earlier 
>editions were blanketed into Spatial Awareness in 4th edition.  Anything 
>which gives you full OCV and DCV vs. opponents and lets you navigate 
>succesfully without sight generally will fall under the heading Spatial 
>Awareness.  
>>  
Well, it only said "Revised Edition" in front... I was always unsure.  And I 
think Parabolic Hearing was absorbed into Telescopic when they made that a 
modifier to any sense, not just Sight.  Passive Sonar was absorbed into 
Spatial Awareness, and maybe some other things were, too.  Oh, I think they 
count Microscopic and Telescopic as the same thing now, too.  Not sure on 
that last one, tho... 
 
And why is Tracking only for Scent? 
 
- Jerry 
 
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 09 Nov 97 00:00:10 GMT 
Subject: Shields and Armor... 
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 h >  
  
You've got some definite Focus Grey Areas here.   But, we can probably  
fix it...  
  
 h > Ok, first off, I have a guy who has a shield, he wants to be able to  
 h > block with it, hit someone with it, and throw it.  Ok, the first two ar  
 h > Now let's say he throws it.  If we put all three in the multipower  
 h > OAF, the first one is armor, then hth, and even throwing it can be an E  
 h > my question comes here it is one recoverable recharge, would you add on  
 h > some sort of limitation that the other slots can't be used until it is  
 h > recovered?  
 h >  How much would you give this limitation?  Any other shield ideas?  
 h >  
  
I'd probably get a Captain Americlone type shield that infallably  
returns when I throw it, so I don't even have to deal with the probelm  
  
Otherwise, yes, the rest of the multipower deserves some kind of  
limitation.  Probalby -1/2 (1 recoverable charge is -1, right? so  
half of that sounds about right)  (Besides, whenever I have no idea  
what a limitation should be, I always say -1/2)  :)  
  
Other shield ideas:  Missle Deflection, DCV levles  also:  5pt levels  
with the shield (as opposed to focused DCV levels), that can be put to  
DCV or block (both when you have the shield only) or missle deflect (which  
is presumably bought throughthe shield) - (5pt levles so that they can add  
to both HTH & Ranged DCV).  
  
 h > Ok, next guy, he carries around a Stone IIF that can turn into Armor  
 h > OIF. Note: Complete change, can't have armor without stone and can't ha  
 h > stone without Armor.  With this in mind.  Would you make the Stone be  
 h > Instant Change IIF only to Armor?  Or can you think of another way to h  
 h > this?  
 h > Well, take it easy and talk at you later.  
  
Just curious:  What does the stone do when it's an IIF?  
  
Sounds like the stone & the armor are the same focus... Variable F/X??  
  
___  
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 09 Nov 97 00:09:12 GMT 
Subject: Stuff that breaks.  Cool 
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 h >         The nefarious assassin Papercut, a mutant with the ability to  
 h > any object a razor sharp weapon, has just assinated the Russian  
 h > embassador Hoseph Ivanovich outside the UN with a credit card.  America  
  
Yes! Use a symbol of Capitalism to kill the Russian   :)  
  
 h > all American shield weilding hero) has been called on the scene.  
....  
 h >  American Shield uses his shield to devend himself against a  
 h > vicious sports page attack.  Let us assume A.S. Shield is not made of  
 h > Ubatainium or any other near-indestructable experimental metal.  
 h > A.S. Shield would be destroyed if it took sufficent damage.  Would  
 h > the 'extra' damage carry over on to A.S.?  
  
Iff the shield is bought as armor, extra damage would carry through. 
 
If the shield is bought as Missle Deflection or DCV levels, it won't  
technically take any damage.  
  
 h > Could Papercut target  
 h > a weapon, like a gun or sword, in this way?  
  
Yes, you can target an OAF:  -2 OCV to your attack.  
  
 h > Could he use his power to sever a limb?  
  
Nah... it's just not genre to sever limbs.  If you're using the  
optional blood & guts damage rules, you could consider a debilitating  
(?) damage to a limb sufficient to sever it.  
  
 h >  ...and would papercut have OAF if he could use just about anything  
 h > near two dimensional for his KA?  
  
This is the old "focus of oportunity" generally considered a -1/2,  
comprable to OIF - you can restrain the character to keep him from  
grabbing something apropriate, but it's not ususally practical in  
combat.  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58 * I am Gates, of Borg: Your Look & Feel will be asimilated.  
 
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 09 Nov 97 00:10:14 GMT 
Subject: Dear ChampionPersons 
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 h > From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>  
 h > Subject: Dear ChampionPersons  
 h > To: champ-l@omg.org  
 h >  
 h > Dear ChampionPersons,  
 h >  I noticed under the Senses section of my 4th edition Champions  
 h > Deluxe, under the Detect heading, it mentions modifiers such as  
 h > 'Discriminatory, Ranged, Parabolic, and 360 degrees,' yet in the above  
 h > paragraphs (where Discriminatory, Ranged, and 360 degrees) are  
 h > described,  
 h > there's no mention of Parabolic.  Could you please help me?  
 h >      Sincerely,  
 h >       Joe 'the Freshman' Smith  
  
Parabolic is Telescopic for hearing.  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 05:14:45 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Fw: Density Increase 
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Michael Jones wrote: 
>precisely. . it's far easier to buy the resistance in 
>addition to the density increase, that expect most dentity-types  
>(like large animals) to buy some wierd limitation on their defences. .  
> 
Another fine example (better, I think).  Even then, the animals that have 
Resistant Defenses have bought Armor... and they don't even have Resistant 
Defenses equal to level of DI... 
 
And, yes, it would get messy trying to throw a Limitation on the DI to get 
rid of Resistant Defenses... 
 
- Jerry 
 
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Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 05:17:55 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: TUSV - Added feature 
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At 09:41 PM 11/8/97 GMT, Opal wrote: 
> h > >My personal feeling is that if you can pick it up and walk away,  
> h > >it's a focus, not a vehicle.  :)  
> h >  
> h >    In a world where super-strong characters can lift and carry cars  
> h > with  
> h > ease, this isn't always the case.  ("We're not going to rob the bank  
> h > --  
> h > we're going to *steal* it!")  For that matter, with my own STR of 8 I  
>  
>I wasn't talking about *bricks* - I mean if somethings small enough that  
>you can walk around with it unencumbered (the brick *will* have some  
>trouble walking around while carrying a car, if only because it bumps  
>into things), then it's probably better as a focus. 
So, if you were in the desert, the car would be a focus 'cause it doesn't 
bump into things, but in a forest or heavy residential area, it would be a 
vehicle. 
>I don't wan't to see skateboards as vehicles.  If the things a bit bigger, 
but you still 
>don't get inside it & it doesn't carry significant passengers or cargo  
>(like a motorcyle), then maybe it's a bulky focus.  
>  
Quite possibly...  but I'd like to see them written up this way to at least 
give me the *option* of writing them up this way... if it turns out they 
work well, this'll be the way it is in my games.  There are different SFX 
and mechanics advantages and disadvantages to writing them up the different 
ways. 
 
>Generally, and vehicle smaller than a hex may as well be a focus - if  
>not, you're giving a character a 5/1 cost break for nothing.  
>  
Actually, you're getting the point break (5/1 compared to 5/2) because 
you're using the more difficult Vehicle rules.  Your character also has to 
deal with turn modes (usually) Vehicle DEX and SPD, and Combat Driving 
(Piloting). 
 
<snip comments on characters in Vehicular Powered Armor> 
I'm sorry I brought it up, really.  I don't let them take it that way, 
anyway.  More problems than it's worth.  Segmented movement and all.  I'll 
take a closer look, tho, and get back on this... 
 
- Jerry 
 
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 09 Nov 97 00:38:16 GMT 
Subject: General Questions (1-9) 
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 h > From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>  
 h >  
 h > Here are some requests:  
 h >  1) Does anyone here have rules for converting Villians &  
 h >    Vigilantes characters to Champions 4th edition stats?  
  
>From what I remember of V&V, my advice would be to start from  
scratch.  
 h >  
 h >  2) Has anyone here used a Life/Luck/Fate/Force/Karma/Plot/etc.  
 h >    point system as a house rule in addition to the normal  
 h >    Hero system?  
  
I've never used it.  But, I did play in a game where we got  
'brownie points' if you came up with something the GM particularly  
liked.  You could spend a bp to get an automatic level of luck,  
influence a plot point (slightly), or you could cash in 4 of them  
for an experience point (hardly seems worth it, huh).  
  
The only simillar thing I can think of is Extra Lives, from an  
old AC.  For 4 pts you got an 'extra life' - 3 automatic levels  
of luck that you could only use to save your life.  The 4 pts  
were gone once you used it.  
  
 h >  4) Computers in Champions.  C:/HELP!/  
 h >  
  
I'm not surprised you're having trouble.  Computers are ill  
defined at best in Hero.  My advice: base your game around an  
event like the Butlerian Jihad in DUNE and don't ever let  
anyone have a computer.  :)  
  
For (slightly) better-defined computers check out the incomplete  
rules:  
  
http://www.best.com/~jimalj/incomp.html  
  
Computers are characters with INT but no EGO - to computerize  
a vehicle or base, just add INT.  
  
 h >  5) One word: Urotsakidoji  
 h >  
  
I like anime, but I haven't seen this one yet.  
  
 h >  6) What two comic books and/or graphic novels have inspired you  
 h >     most?  
 h >  
Iron Man, my favourite when I was 11.  I like having super-tech in  
the background of my champaign rules, and I'm very fond of the idea  
of the character who *builds* his own powers, instead of having  
them dropped in his lap by a mutation or accident.  
  
The 'Dark Knight' series.  Not so much for the gritty stuff as for  
the Joker.  
  
 h >  7) After my thermonuke and black holl post raised heck....  
 h >     Did I miss any weapons or forces of mass destruction?  
 h >  
  
Nerve Gas, Biological Weapons, tidal waves, earthquakes...  
  
(lest you think it pointless, I've been in games with a PC  
plague carrier, and a PC hydrokinetic killer whale who could  
create Tsunamis (that's the proper term for tidal waves, yes?) )  
  
 h >  8)  Load bearing structures in Champions.  How much can a structure  
 h >     hold?  How much damage does 'weight' do?  (Important for bricks  
 h >     who try to sit in wooden chairs or Powerguy, who wants to rest  
 h >     a plane on top of a ferris wheel).  
 h >  
  
I have no idea...  Maybe a 2def structure can hold 100kg, and it  
doubles with each +1 DEF....  probably too low....  
  
 h >  9)  Would you laugh at me if I set up a web page of real people  
 h > dressed as super heroes of their own design?  
 h >      (Clovis... IN TIGHTS!!!!  HAHAHAHAHAHA...)  
 h >  
Yes... unless they were really cute.  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 05:38:50 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
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At 01:42 AM 11/9/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>On Saturday, November 08, 1997 1:59 PM, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>>Density Increase, 1 LVL, 0 END Persitent, Always On, Visible. 
>Distinctive 
>>Features, Obese.  The character now weighs ~440 lbs.  How many 
>overweight 
>>people you know who take less damage from bullets? 
> 
>Nope. That's growth. A person who gets broader and not taller can be 
>defined as having one level of Growth. It describes this under Growth, 
>a person with growth can be the same height as a person with one level 
>less Growth, in this case none. 
> 
>People who are overweight do not get denser. If they did, they would 
>sink more readily, but they don't; they float easier. They are, in 
>fact, less dense. 
> 
Not bad.  You pointed out a part of the Growth description I had completely 
missed.  And I think you are right, but this wouldn't make them less 
dense... they'd be more dense than an average person, anyway. 
 
- Jerry 
 
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 09 Nov 97 00:41:18 GMT 
Subject: Minatures 
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 h >  
 h > From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>  
 h > Subject: Minatures  
 h > To: champ-l@omg.org  
 h >  
 h > When using minatures, using the Area of Effect rules, how many  
 h > hexes up is an Area of effect?  What about an explosion?  
  
An AE radius or Explosion is a sphere, and so would extend into  
3 dimensions.  An AE cone would probably be half as high as it  
is wide at any point.  AE lines would be 1 hex high, as would  
AE: Hex.  That leaves AE:any area, and I have no idea...  
  
perhaps, have the hight equal to the lower of the length or  
width.  
___  
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 09 Nov 97 00:51:20 GMT 
Subject: Re: General Questions (# 
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 h > From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>  
 h > Subject: Re: General Questions (# 3)  
 h > To: champ-l@omg.org  
 h >  
 h > 3)  Champ's computer rules are shaky.  There's no talk of 'hardcases'  
 h > for a computer.  How much damage can they take?  Do PC's really need a  
 h > DEX?  Most PCs have mathmatical, chronographic, and memory  
 h > capabilities  
 h > that stack up to be expensive perks.  What are computers considered?  
 h > Are they OAF: Laptop (thus, the character pays that many points),  
 h > do they have a cost ratio (like vechiles, bases, and followers), or  
 h > are they 'straight points'?  If you buy a computer as part of a  
 h > vechile or base, how much does it cost then?  I'm sure they go  
 h > into computers a bit more in Cyber Hero...  
  
Computers are generally built as Followers, there are specific,  
wierd rules for them that, among other things, fail to mention  
how big they are or what thier DEF & BOD might be.  
  
I ignored those rules when I wanted a computer.  I bought an 
 
OIF (a very small, very sophisiticated computer worn on an  
armband) with:  Eidetic Memroy, Lightning Calculator, Universal  
Translator, Absolute Time Sense, and a bunch of knowledge skills  
(and I was thinking of adding Bump of Direction and some Area  
knowledges) and a limitation 'Visible to hearing' because it had  
a voice interface, oh, and Cramming for those little plug in  
KS's.  
___  
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 09 Nov 97 00:56:22 GMT 
X-To: herolist@october.com (herolist)  h > prevent Star Guy from changing to his hero form.  I understand your  h > form of the armor theory here, but the Stone would be an IIF because  h > looks nothing like the Armor and for the most part no one in his 
Subject: Star Armor was (Re: Shie 
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To: herolist@october.com (herolist)  
 h > prevent Star Guy from changing to his hero form.  I understand your  
 h > form of the armor theory here, but the Stone would be an IIF because  
 h > looks nothing like the Armor and for the most part no one in his 
 
 h > would say, "Hey, if I take that, no more Star Guy."  They might find  
 h > figure out it was the armor unlike someone toting armor around in a  
 h > backpack.  I could almost justify Only In Hero ID here, but it is  
 h > to take the items away from him thus removing all powers.  What do you  
 h > think?  
 h >  
 h > Sparx  
  
Maybe the Stone is the IIF and the Armor is just a special effect -  
like the glowing nimbus of a Force Field.  
  
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 09 Nov 97 00:58:24 GMT 
Subject: Density Increase 
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 h > From: "Scott S." <scott2k@gte.net>  
 h > Subject: Density Increase  
 h > To: champ-l@omg.org  
 h >  
 h > Am I the only one who thinks the defense gained from Density Increase  
 h > should be resistant?  
 h > scott2k@gte.net  
 h >  
  
Nope... it used to be, you know.  DI cost 10pts and gave you +3  
resistant PD & ED.  Still, only 1 or 2 levels might not be justified  
and where do you draw the line?  Anyway it's easy enough to link  
a little Damage Resistance to your DI.  
  
___  
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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 11:26:09 +1000 
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Subject: Re: Density Increase 
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At 04:25 PM 11/3/97 -0800, you wrote: 
> 
>> > Am I the only one who thinks the defense gained from Density Increase 
>> > should be resistant?  
>>  
>> I'd say no, just because there are SFX that would not call for it 
>> ( A sumo wrestler, for example).  It's much easier for someone to  
>> add a few points of Damage Resistance to their characters with DI  
>> than it is for someone who doen't want resistant DEF to back-calculate  
>> how much the DR would be and subtract it from the DI cost.   
 
>If someone wants to be denser without being more resistant to killing 
>attacks, he's got the wrong idea. Imagine the Thing bleeding cuz some punk 
>stuck him with a knife, or Obsidian.  
> 
> 
 
anyone useing single examples while missing the point of  
the special effect rationale has got the wring idea.  
The point of champoins is to allow for ALL possiblilities,  
not just the ones you can think of . . . 
 
 
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 15:11:01 +1000 
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Subject: Re: Density Increase 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:16 PM 11/3/97 -0800, you wrote: 
>> > > than it is for someone who doen't want resistant DEF to 
>back-calculate  
>> > > how much the DR would be and subtract it from the DI cost.   
>> > If someone wants to be denser without being more resistant to killing 
>> > attacks, he's got the wrong idea. Imagine the Thing bleeding cuz some 
>punk 
>> > stuck him with a knife, or Obsidian.  
>> >  
>>  
>> Obsidian and The Thing both have the powers "Made of tougher, denser 
>material 
>> than ordinary flesh".  To simulate that in champs, you need *more* than  
>> just Density Increase.  Density Increase handles the "Denser" part.  
>> It doens't handle the "tougher" part very well.  To do that, you  
>> need to add Damage Resistance.  
> <snip> 
>Exactly my point, it doesn't accurately reflect the power in question. If 
>you are denser, you are more resistant to killing attacks, such as knives, 
>lasers, etc. It's just a simple fact of physics that the denser something 
>is, the more difficult it is to penetrate.  
> 
 
no, that flies in the face of the system! the idea is to minimise  
powers and buy them to potray ANYTHING instead of just limiting them 
to your own limited perspective on what 'x' would do. If you decide 
your character's density causes resistant defence, fine, you can buy  
resistant defence. But not ALL density increase will work this way. .  
 
 
>P.S.- What's a Shoggoth??? 
> 
 
shoggoth is a big ultra-dense guy with little or no resistant defence. .  
 
 
 
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 00:52:58 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Scott S. wrote: 
 
> P.S.- What's a Shoggoth??? 
 
An immense, almost unkillable blob-like nightmare from H.P. Lovecraft.  
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
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Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 00:42:03 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Shields and Armor... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> h > Ok, next guy, he carries around a Stone IIF that can turn into Armor  
> h > OIF. Note: Complete change, can't have armor without stone and can't ha  
> h > stone without Armor.  With this in mind.  Would you make the Stone be  
> h > Instant Change IIF only to Armor?  Or can you think of another way to h  
> h > this?  
> h > Well, take it easy and talk at you later.  
>  
>Just curious:  What does the stone do when it's an IIF?  
>  
>Sounds like the stone & the armor are the same focus... Variable F/X??  
 
Well, this is possible I suppose. The stone Instant Changes to the Armor.   
That is, the stone becomes the armor.  Sure, it could be the same Focus, but  
one would be OIF whereas the other would be IIF so how would you handle it?   
I mean looking at this stone would by no way let the average person figure  
out it is the armor.  In fact unless you saw the stone change over to armor,  
you'd probably just think it was a valuable gemstone, if you were really  
smart, you might connect it as to being one of the stones set in the Star  
Guardian Armor.  Take it easy and talk at you later. 
 
Sparx 
 
==================================================== 
 I'll fire aimlessly if you don't come out! 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 00:43:28 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Star Armor was (Re: Shie 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>Maybe the Stone is the IIF and the Armor is just a special effect -  
>like the glowing nimbus of a Force Field. 
 
Well, that is a possibility.  The Armor also allows for EB, RKA, Flight,  
Life Support, Etc...  So maybe I could run those powers through the Stone as  
IIF.  Hrrm..something to think over.  Take it easy and talk at you later. 
 
 
Sparx 
 
==================================================== 
 I'll fire aimlessly if you don't come out! 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 16:51:19 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Fw: Density Increase 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:05 PM 11/8/97 +0500, you wrote: 
>Yes, rocky beings such as the Thing and Obsidian, or even just a stone 
>golem, have extra defenses...  I doubt that they get even a large fraction 
>of their defenses from being extra dense... how much do they weigh?  Even 
>then, there are reasons for them to be tough...  Obsidian only weighs ~900 
>lb. and spent an extra 40 or so points on defenses anyway... 
> 
 
and even if it did, that's just the special effect of the resistant defences. . .  
 
 
 
>And you *are* ignoring the point brought up previously.  A sumo wrestler, or 
>other obese person (the Blob, for example) have one level of DI to represent 
>their sheer weight.  They (probably) shouldn't get *automatic* Resistant 
>Defenses. 
> 
  
precisely. . it's far easier to buy the resistance in 
addition to the density increase, that expect most dentity-types  
(like large animals) to buy some wierd limitation on their defences. .  
 
 
 
 
 
>- Jerry 
> 
> 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 13:10:18 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:45 AM 11/9/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
<edit> 
>Consider. I buy three levels of Growth for 15 active pts., with 0 END, 
>Persistent, Always On bringing it to 20 real points. I get 15 STR (15 
>pts.), -3 Knockback Resistance (6 pts.), +3 BODY (6 pts), +3 STUN 
>(free, comes with increased BODY, as the only figured characteristic 
>based upon BODY), and 1" Stretching, 0 END (8 pts). So far, you spend 
>20 pts and get 31 pts. 
> 
>Now, buy -2 levels DCV(-10 pts). You now pay 20 pts to get 21 pts in 
>powers. Now, the PER roll is rather difficult. However, such penalties 
>have been defined in various publications as negative levels. For +2 
>vs. all PER rolls against the character, you can buy two negative 
>levels for Perception, for -6 pts. So, you end up paying 20 pts for _5 
>points_ of powers. 
 
Isn't 21-6=15?  That's not *that* overpriced...  and being easier to see 
isn't necessarily equal to having difficulties seeing. 
Few to none of my Players have Growth, either, but it seems it's more of 
character conception than Rules Lawyering or Power Playing. 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 13:19:29 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:30 AM 11/9/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>On Sunday, November 09, 1997 2:26 AM, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>Not necessarily. They have to be larger than average, because 
>otherwise they wouldn't be easier to see and hit. 
 
Well, that seems patently untrue, according to the book.  In the passage you 
pointed out, it states "the character can be anywhere from the height listed 
to one level below his current level (though the other effects remain *the 
same*)."  [emphasis mine] 
Which seems to say that they are increasing their width at 2x/3 levels, just 
like before.  And, for some reason, they are easier to hit, easier to see, 
etc. w/o the extra height. 
 
>Therefore, if they aren't taller, they are extra wide. 
> 
Only by your interpretation.  It says that the other effects remain the 
same.  So, at one level, he's only wider by a factor of the cube root of 2. 
Even by your ruling, he would still only double in volume (max) per level, 
just as he would under normally defined Growth. 
 
>Since this is true of an obese person, and they are actually less 
>dense than slender people, I have to disagree that they would still be 
>denser than normal. They are wider and deeper, and this balances it 
>out. 
> 
But if they only double in volume (as Growth seems to state) and they double 
in mass (as Growth *does* state), then they are, at best, the *same* density 
as a normal man.  Not less. 
 
And, actually, Growth doesn't strictly say anything about deeper, but I've 
always assumed so, too... 
 
I think your idea has merit, but it has flaws, just as using Increased 
Density does... 
 
- Jerry 
 
From: DocWeird@aol.com 
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 03:46:28 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 97-11-08 16:17:04 EST, you write: 
 
<<  
 Am I the only one who thinks the defense gained from Density Increase 
 should be resistant?  
 scott2k@gte.net >> 
 
       I must admit, I agree on this one............ 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 14:29:14 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:33 AM 11/9/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>On Sunday, November 09, 1997 2:32 AM, Filksinger wrote: 
><snip> 
>>Consider. I buy three levels of Growth for 15 active pts., with 0 
>END, 
>>Persistent, Always On bringing it to 20 real points. I get 15 STR (15 
>>pts.), -3 Knockback Resistance (6 pts.), +3 BODY (6 pts), +3 STUN 
>>(free, comes with increased BODY, as the only figured characteristic 
>>based upon BODY), and 1" Stretching, 0 END (8 pts). So far, you spend 
>>20 pts and get 31 pts. 
> 
>Oops. That should be 35 pts, not 31. 
> 
>Still, I think the point is still valid. 
> 
Well, seeing as how this now means (if your other numbers are correct) that 
you're paying 20 pts for (15+6+6+8)+(-10-6)=19 pts.  Not bad, and it seems 
your point is less valid because of this...  You lose 1 pt. 
 
- Jerry 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 01:42:10 -0800 
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On Saturday, November 08, 1997 1:59 PM, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>Density Increase, 1 LVL, 0 END Persitent, Always On, Visible. 
Distinctive 
>Features, Obese.  The character now weighs ~440 lbs.  How many 
overweight 
>people you know who take less damage from bullets? 
 
 
Nope. That's growth. A person who gets broader and not taller can be 
defined as having one level of Growth. It describes this under Growth, 
a person with growth can be the same height as a person with one level 
less Growth, in this case none. 
 
People who are overweight do not get denser. If they did, they would 
sink more readily, but they don't; they float easier. They are, in 
fact, less dense. 
 
Filksinger 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 14:43:25 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Shields and Armor... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:41 AM 11/9/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes: 
>JD> But that's more of a Dodge... if he actively Blocked (manuever), he 
>JD> wouldn't be any better, just 'cause he had the Shield. 
> 
>Exactly, which is why a shield is not "armor that activates with a Block 
>maneuver" because that is totally useless. 
> 
So maybe it should give both +'s to DCV overall, *and* levels with Block? 
 
>JD> It might give +'s to OCV for Blocks and the HA (Shield), instead. 
> 
>Maybe... Hero already defines shields as DCV bonuses, because a shield will 
>provide defense even if it is doing nothing other than sitting there 
>strapped on your back. 
> 
Yeah, I know.  That just seems uncomfortably close to dropping your Armor 
Class (tm) by one if you have a shield...  and the shield on the back bit 
only protects you from behind, too. 
>[...] 
> 
>>> Two-slot multipower, one with the skill levels and HA, the other with the 
>>> EB. 
>>>  
>JD> But what Lim would you suggest on the other slot? 
> 
>What limitation?  It is a two-slot Multipower with a pair of ultra slots. 
>You get one (HA, skill levels) or the other (EB) but not both 
>simultaneously. 
> 
Right, but if the EB is built with one recoverable charge, if the shield 
doesn't bounce/boomerang back...  you can't use the other slot until you get 
it back, but you could still switch it unless you popped a limitation on 
that slot. 
>[...] 
> 
>>> Um... what does the rock do, other than turn into Armor?  Because if that 
>>> is all it does, it is a special effect, not a Focus. 
>JD> Unless it is Instant Change, like he said. 
> 
>Then the rock (Instant Change) gets IIF and the armor gets OIF.  Take the 
>rock away and he cannot change.  Take the armor away and he has no armor. 
>No-brainer. 
> 
Well, that's why I asked.  You seemed to be ignoring that bit.  In your 
opinion, though, does this change at all when the rock becomes part of the 
Armor?  It's still Inaccesible, and Inobvious, but it melds into the other 
Focus. 
 
- Jerry 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 01:56:18 -0800 
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On Saturday, November 08, 1997 8:06 PM, Scott S. 
 
 
 
<snip> 
>Exactly my point, it doesn't accurately reflect the power in 
question. If 
>you are denser, you are more resistant to killing attacks, such as 
knives, 
>lasers, etc. It's just a simple fact of physics that the denser 
something 
>is, the more difficult it is to penetrate. 
 
 
Gold is denser than silver is denser than iron is denser than 
titanium. 
 
Titanium is tougher than iron is tougher than silver is tougher than 
gold. 
 
Sorry, increased density does not equate to increased toughness. 
 
>P.S.- What's a Shoggoth??? 
 
A Shoggoth is an eldritch  horror from the Cthulhu mythos by H. P. 
Lovecraft. 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Shields and Armor... 
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 02:15:39 -0800 
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On Saturday, November 08, 1997 10:15 PM, Sparx wrote: 
 
 
>Well, this is possible I suppose. The stone Instant Changes to the 
Armor. 
>That is, the stone becomes the armor.  Sure, it could be the same 
Focus, but 
>one would be OIF whereas the other would be IIF so how would you 
handle it? 
>I mean looking at this stone would by no way let the average person 
figure 
>out it is the armor.  In fact unless you saw the stone change over to 
armor, 
>you'd probably just think it was a valuable gemstone, if you were 
really 
>smart, you might connect it as to being one of the stones set in the 
Star 
>Guardian Armor.  Take it easy and talk at you later. 
 
 
An Obvious focus doesn't have to be obvious until used. I could have a 
ring that clearly is the source of my power, but it can look quite 
ordinary until I use it. This has been mentioned a few times in the 
various Hero publications, and if it weren't true, then there would 
have to be yet another category of focus for those that are Inobvious 
one minute and Obvious the next. Instead, its SFX. 
 
Filksinger 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 15:24:15 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:09 PM 11/9/97 -0800, Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote: 
>At 01:19 PM 11/9/97 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>>>Since this is true of an obese person, and they are actually less 
>>>dense than slender people, I have to disagree that they would still be 
>>>denser than normal. They are wider and deeper, and this balances it 
>>>out. 
>>> 
>>But if they only double in volume (as Growth seems to state) and they double 
>>in mass (as Growth *does* state), then they are, at best, the *same* density 
>>as a normal man.  Not less. 
> 
>If we're talking about comparing people who are in good shape, I can see 
>your point.  However, adipose tissue (fat) is less dense than muscle or 
>bone tissue.  A fat person is less dense than a muscular person who 
>displaces the same volume in the same way that a ml of He is less dense 
>than a ml of Hg -- same volume, but Hg weighs more and increases density by 
>D=m/v.  
> 
Not disagreeing with real world measurements.  I know fat is less dense than 
muscle.  Was disagreeing that game mechanics can readily show obesity.  I 
contended Density Increase, Filk conteded Growth, no height increase (no 
Limitation, either). 
I suppose it could also just be Knockback Resistance -1", Phys. Lim.: Obese, 
DF: Obese, -1" Running... 
But I also don't think that Density Increase is truly (necessarily) 
increasing density, anyway...  It just increases mass, which could also be 
looked at as specific weight. 
It's all just SFX, but I can see now how Growth *may* be more appropriate... 
 
- Jerry 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 02:45:45 -0800 
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On Sunday, November 09, 1997 12:58 AM, DocWeird@aol.com wrote: 
 
 
>In a message dated 97-11-08 16:17:04 EST, you write: 
> 
><< 
> Am I the only one who thinks the defense gained from Density 
Increase 
> should be resistant? 
> scott2k@gte.net >> 
> 
>       I must admit, I agree on this one............ 
 
 
Indeed. 
 
Both Growth and Density Increase used to buy more than they do now. 
They reduced them for purposes of balance, but I find the new versions 
seriously unbalanced. 
 
Consider. I buy three levels of Growth for 15 active pts., with 0 END, 
Persistent, Always On bringing it to 20 real points. I get 15 STR (15 
pts.), -3 Knockback Resistance (6 pts.), +3 BODY (6 pts), +3 STUN 
(free, comes with increased BODY, as the only figured characteristic 
based upon BODY), and 1" Stretching, 0 END (8 pts). So far, you spend 
20 pts and get 31 pts. 
 
Now, buy -2 levels DCV(-10 pts). You now pay 20 pts to get 21 pts in 
powers. Now, the PER roll is rather difficult. However, such penalties 
have been defined in various publications as negative levels. For +2 
vs. all PER rolls against the character, you can buy two negative 
levels for Perception, for -6 pts. So, you end up paying 20 pts for _5 
points_ of powers. For this privilege, you get to take the rather 
serious limitation that you are very heavy, tall, and wide, making it 
hard to walk on things, inside things, or under things. 
 
I have to conclude that Growth and (to a lesser degree, but similar) 
Density Increase are severely _overpriced_, given that they supply you 
with so many disadvantages. That probably explains why I haven't had a 
single PC in my campaign with Growth since the 4 Ed. came out. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 04:58:18 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Defenses 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:08 PM 11/8/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
> Physical Defense, Energy Defense, Mental Defense, Power Defense. 
>Are there any other types of defense? 
 
   Flash Defense, for each individual Sense Group (Sight, Hearing, Radio, 
Smell/Taste, and Mental). 
 
> Also, Damage reduction can apply to Physical, Energy, Mental, 
>and Power. 
 
   I'd allow DR vs Flash "damage." 
 
> A few strings back, Presence Defense was discussed. 
 
   This was a 3rd Edition Power, now generally purchased as Presence, Only 
for Defense (-1). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 04:59:40 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:05 AM 11/3/97 -0800, Scott S. wrote: 
>Am I the only one who thinks the defense gained from Density Increase 
>should be resistant?  
 
   Now that you mention it, I think it was resistant in the earlier 
editions.  I can only assume that it was made non-resistant for balance 
purposes. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 05:01:23 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 04:25 PM 11/3/97 -0800, Scott S. wrote: 
> 
>> > Am I the only one who thinks the defense gained from Density Increase 
>> > should be resistant?  
>>  
>> I'd say no, just because there are SFX that would not call for it 
>> ( A sumo wrestler, for example).  It's much easier for someone to  
>> add a few points of Damage Resistance to their characters with DI  
>> than it is for someone who doen't want resistant DEF to back-calculate  
>> how much the DR would be and subtract it from the DI cost.   
>If someone wants to be denser without being more resistant to killing 
>attacks, he's got the wrong idea. Imagine the Thing bleeding cuz some punk 
>stuck him with a knife, or Obsidian.  
 
   Imagine building either of those two characters in Hero without scads of 
Armor and/or Damage Resistance!  (I can't.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 05:04:15 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: General Questions (# 3) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:32 AM 11/8/97 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>At 07:09 AM 11/8/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>   A regular desktop computer, not designed to do any physical 
>>interactions, can get by just fine with a DEX of 10. 
> 
>Problem: since DEX determines initiative for all things, this means it's 
>impossible to write a video game that can beat anyone who's slightly better 
>than average. :/ 
 
   That is so; I was addressing the question of a computer that does just 
stuff like accounting, email, word processing, and maybe the occasional 
strategy game. 
 
>>   Computers are bought at the same 5:1 rate as Vehicles and Followers. 
> 
>It's not very well lined out, but technically computers are bought AS 
Followers. 
 
   True. 
--- 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 05:23:40 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Minatures 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:41 AM 11/9/97 GMT, Opal wrote: 
> h > When using minatures, using the Area of Effect rules, how many  
> h > hexes up is an Area of effect?  What about an explosion?  
>  
>An AE radius or Explosion is a sphere, and so would extend into  
>3 dimensions.  An AE cone would probably be half as high as it  
>is wide at any point.  AE lines would be 1 hex high, as would  
>AE: Hex.  That leaves AE:any area, and I have no idea...  
>  
>perhaps, have the hight equal to the lower of the length or  
>width.  
 
   No, I'd just say that the hexes in AE: Any Area may be stacked on top of 
each other if desired. 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 05:26:05 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Miniatures 
Cc: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org> 
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At 12:44 PM 11/8/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>>>When using minatures, using the Area of Effect rules, how many    
>>>hexes up is an Area of effect?  What about an explosion? 
> 
>>   Even without miniatures, I generally treat AE: Radius, AE: Cone, and 
>>Explosion as three-dimensional. 
> 
>What dimesnions?   AE: Radius is a dome?  or if used in the air, a Sphere? 
>What about the cone?  What about a variable AE? 
 
   AE: Radius would be a sphere (or, as you say, a dome, when Ground Zero 
is on a flat surface).  Same with Explosion. 
   AE: Cone sould be, well, a cone.  That, as Opal pointed out, would be 
half as high in the center as it is wide.  (The same goes for the AE: Cone 
variations in Hero System Almanac 1.) 
   AE: Any Area would simply be built as "stackable blocks." 
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 05:30:03 -0800 
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On Sunday, November 09, 1997 2:26 AM, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
<snip> 
>Not bad.  You pointed out a part of the Growth description I had 
completely 
>missed.  And I think you are right, but this wouldn't make them less 
>dense... they'd be more dense than an average person, anyway. 
> 
 
Not necessarily. They have to be larger than average, because 
otherwise they wouldn't be easier to see and hit. Therefore, if they 
aren't taller, they are extra wide. 
 
Since this is true of an obese person, and they are actually less 
dense than slender people, I have to disagree that they would still be 
denser than normal. They are wider and deeper, and this balances it 
out. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 05:33:33 -0800 
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On Sunday, November 09, 1997 2:32 AM, Filksinger wrote: 
 
 
 
<snip> 
>Consider. I buy three levels of Growth for 15 active pts., with 0 
END, 
>Persistent, Always On bringing it to 20 real points. I get 15 STR (15 
>pts.), -3 Knockback Resistance (6 pts.), +3 BODY (6 pts), +3 STUN 
>(free, comes with increased BODY, as the only figured characteristic 
>based upon BODY), and 1" Stretching, 0 END (8 pts). So far, you spend 
>20 pts and get 31 pts. 
 
Oops. That should be 35 pts, not 31. 
 
Still, I think the point is still valid. 
 
Filksinger 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 05:35:14 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Starter Questions 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 11:36 PM 11/8/97 +0000, Chris Brecken wrote: 
>Hi, i'm relativly new to this list, so forgive me for these basic 
>questions.... 
 
   Welcome to the list.  You will be honored and respected, if only for 
asking opening questions that are not Classic Debate Items. 
   (Suggestion to Stainless Steel Rat:  should a list of Classic Debate 
Items for this mailing list be added to the FAQ?) 
 
>1. is there a bonus/penalty when attacking someone from behind, and  
>what constitutes behind? 
 
   Answering those questions in reverse order. 
   On a combat map, each character must have a particular facing, which is 
usually one hex side.  An opposing character is attacking "from behind" 
when attacking from any of the three hex sides opposite that.  Technically, 
attacking from directly above or below can also be considered "from behind." 
   Attacks from behind have the same effect as attacks from invisible 
opponents; the defender is at half DCV.  (If the defender has the Defense 
Maneuver Talent and is using it, however, attacking from behind has no 
effect.) 
 
>2. if a speed 4 charcter with no saved phases aborts to a dodge on  
> phase 2, hoiw long does this dodge last, untill phase 3, or 6 
> if the speed 4 charcter is attacked again on phase 3, do they 
> have to abort for another dodge, and can they. 
 
   The Dodge lasts until his Phase comes around on Segment 6; it's not 
necessary to Dodge again. 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 05:52:18 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV - Added feature 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 09:41 PM 11/8/97 GMT, Opal wrote: 
>I wasn't talking about *bricks* - I mean if somethings small enough that  
>you can walk around with it unencumbered (the brick *will* have some  
>trouble walking around while carrying a car, if only because it bumps  
>into things), then it's probably better as a focus.  I don't wan't to  
>see skateboards as vehicles.  If the things a bit bigger, but you still  
>don't get inside it & it doesn't carry significant passengers or cargo  
>(like a motorcyle), then maybe it's a bulky focus.  
> 
>Generally, and vehicle smaller than a hex may as well be a focus - if  
>not, you're giving a character a 5/1 cost break for nothing.  
 
   There's always the option of building any Vehicle as a Focus. 
   However, the true defining difference between what should be built as a 
Vehicle and what should be built as a Focus (at least, in my view) is 
whether it operates under its own power, or merely enhances the character's. 
   Take a look at the Cyberknights (assuming you have the Allies book). 
Heavy Duty's rig is someting that I would've expected to see bought as a 
Vehicle, not as an OIF (which is how Fannon did it).  As built, when Jamie 
Simms gets into it, her DEX and SPD go from 12/3 to 20/4.  That actually is 
not bad for a vehicle operator.  But if Fast Forward were to try to run it 
(as he might in an emergency), he'd be operating at 38/10 (to say nothing 
of 39" Running).  However, if Fast Forward were to get on the Bolt 
(Crossbow's hovercycle) and try running around on it, he'd be limited to 
the Bolt's 24 DEX and 5 SPD for purposes of operating it, and he couldn't 
go any faster than it was built to go. 
 
>Another thing that's always bothered me is vehicles in combat  
>with supers.   Since vehicles don't have Stun, they have to  
>take much lower defenses, so that they can be damaged in a  
>real fight.  Also, when people start taking powered armor as  
>vehicles you run into trouble over when the occupant takes  
>damage.  
 
   The issue of vehicles taking lower Defense values is addressed in the 
book.  In general, a vehicle's DEF should be about 1/3 what you'd allow for 
a brick of the same power level.  Also, the DEX/SPD for a vehicle operator 
is typically in the "high normal" range, starting at around 15/3 -- even 
lower than bricks.  Those vehicle are going to have to soak up a *lot* of 
punishment. 
   As for folks taking Powered Armor as vehicles, they will run into a few 
problems that way as well.  For one thing, they can't use the vehicle's STR 
to do punching attacks, unless they buy arms on it (usually bought as TK at 
No Range).  They also cannot Push any STR or Movement, and generally can't 
Push attacks, either; Pushing would be possible, of course, with an OIF 
Battlesuit.  And if that's not enough trouble, the GM can still use the 
various Exploding Vehicle rules. 
 
>I think that characters in batllesuit-vehicles should take Stun  
>from every attack that hits the d**n thing.  (Thus, if you  
>were wearing a 12 DEF vehicle, and hasd 8 pd/ed yourself, you'd  
>have a 20 def against the Stun of attacks that hit it).  
 
   "Normal Defense" is a 1/4 Limitation I'm inserting for battlesuit-type 
Vehicles. 
 
>Also, characters should usually take knockback damage when the  
>vehicle they're in gets knocked back (and there should be some  
>way of getting Star Treck 'inertial dampeners' or whatever  
>to prevent it (Knock Back resistance for the occupants).  
 
   Aha!  That's something that goes into the manuscsript *right now*!   :-] 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 06:13:08 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: vehicles within ve 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 09:52 PM 11/8/97 GMT, Opal wrote: 
>One question though:  Vehicles are bought as Followers, & you can double  
>the number of followers for +5 points.  Say I buy a big vehicle for  
>50 points (250pt vehicle)  I want it to have a 50pt shuttle craft,  
>if I spend 5 pts, I get another 250pt vehicle (which as far as I know  
>doesn't have to be identical to the 1st), if I buy the 50pt vehicle from  
>scratch, it cost 10pts.  What do I do?  Have the 250pt vehicle pay 10 of  
>it's points for the 50pt one?  That means it costs me 2 pts for a 10pt  
>power... but then, for 5pts I can get another 250pt one.  
 
   A vehicle may own another vehicle if the second vehicle is tied tightly 
to the first one.  An elevator, a *dedicated* carrier, or a "guided 
missile" weapon are three examples.  The shuttles would generally have to 
bought separately (unless the GM decided that they're close enough to being 
a part of the main vehicle that they can be bought as sub-vehicles). 
 
>Back in Champions III they had a process called 'breaking down agents'  
>you could do something simillar here.  Something like:  
   [example snipped] 
>Buying followers is simpler in the 4th ed, the Camps III bit was  
>really messy.  :)  
 
   I thought about reviving this, but for this very reason decided not to 
(especially since one of the Sample Campaign Settings involves owning scads 
of vehicles). 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 07:19:51 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:11 PM 11/9/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
>>> Obsidian and The Thing both have the powers "Made of tougher, denser 
>>material 
>>> than ordinary flesh".  To simulate that in champs, you need *more* than  
>>> just Density Increase.  Density Increase handles the "Denser" part.  
>>> It doens't handle the "tougher" part very well.  To do that, you  
>>> need to add Damage Resistance.  
>> <snip> 
>>Exactly my point, it doesn't accurately reflect the power in question. If 
>>you are denser, you are more resistant to killing attacks, such as knives, 
>>lasers, etc. It's just a simple fact of physics that the denser something 
>>is, the more difficult it is to penetrate.  
> 
>no, that flies in the face of the system! the idea is to minimise  
>powers and buy them to potray ANYTHING instead of just limiting them 
>to your own limited perspective on what 'x' would do. If you decide 
>your character's density causes resistant defence, fine, you can buy  
>resistant defence. But not ALL density increase will work this way. .  
 
   I have to side in with Michael on this one.  Density Increase is a 
package meant to cover the *minimum* that would happen with an increase in 
density.  Anything else should be bought separately.  (Batteries Not 
Included.) 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Shields and Armor... 
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>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes: 
 
JD> But that's more of a Dodge... if he actively Blocked (manuever), he 
JD> wouldn't be any better, just 'cause he had the Shield. 
 
Exactly, which is why a shield is not "armor that activates with a Block 
maneuver" because that is totally useless. 
 
JD> It might give +'s to OCV for Blocks and the HA (Shield), instead. 
 
Maybe... Hero already defines shields as DCV bonuses, because a shield will 
provide defense even if it is doing nothing other than sitting there 
strapped on your back. 
 
[...] 
 
>> Two-slot multipower, one with the skill levels and HA, the other with the 
>> EB. 
>>  
JD> But what Lim would you suggest on the other slot? 
 
What limitation?  It is a two-slot Multipower with a pair of ultra slots. 
You get one (HA, skill levels) or the other (EB) but not both 
simultaneously. 
 
[...] 
 
>> Um... what does the rock do, other than turn into Armor?  Because if that 
>> is all it does, it is a special effect, not a Focus. 
JD> Unless it is Instant Change, like he said. 
 
Then the rock (Instant Change) gets IIF and the armor gets OIF.  Take the 
rock away and he cannot change.  Take the armor away and he has no armor. 
No-brainer. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Frequently Debated Topics (was Re: Starter Questions) 
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
BG>    (Suggestion to Stainless Steel Rat: should a list of Classic Debate 
BG> Items for this mailing list be added to the FAQ?) 
 
Someone else (I forget whom) was working on an FDT list to parallel the 
FAQ.  I do not know the status of that document. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 97 17:51:21  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Giant Monster/Demon Help 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 06 Nov 1997 15:49:34 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
>        I am running a magically influenced Champions campaign, and I have 
>left a play session with a portal of darkness opening and a black tentacle 
>snaking out to grab an NPC.  The Players have no idea how to close the 
>portal, or defeat what's coming through, or even what is coming through. 
>(One of the characters might know, but not the current personality that is 
>in control.) 
>        So, the beastie may just visit our earth.  I'm torn between an 
>Eldritch Horror (reminiscent of Cthulhu-like beasties) with some weird 
>fear-based Powers, and a shape indescribable to man; an Elder Demon type of 
>guy like out of D&D, in which case it might just be a straight fight; or 
>possible something like Trigon the Terrible (out of the old New Teen Titans 
>books), which means he would take awhile to take down, and might not be 
>fighting directly. 
 
How about Giant Mutant Cockroach-Octopi a la Paranoia? :} 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
X-Sender: scm@mail.aci.net 
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 12:09:41 -0800 
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 01:19 PM 11/9/97 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>>Since this is true of an obese person, and they are actually less 
>>dense than slender people, I have to disagree that they would still be 
>>denser than normal. They are wider and deeper, and this balances it 
>>out. 
>> 
>But if they only double in volume (as Growth seems to state) and they double 
>in mass (as Growth *does* state), then they are, at best, the *same* density 
>as a normal man.  Not less. 
 
If we're talking about comparing people who are in good shape, I can see 
your point.  However, adipose tissue (fat) is less dense than muscle or 
bone tissue.  A fat person is less dense than a muscular person who 
displaces the same volume in the same way that a ml of He is less dense 
than a ml of Hg -- same volume, but Hg weighs more and increases density by 
D=m/v.  
 
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre 
www.mactyre.net 
 
Your children will see the stars. 
--Robert A. Heinlein 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Growth Efficiency 
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 15:15:40 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Something that's been left out of the calculations so far is that 
there's a limitation of 2xMass on the power, too. Especially with a lot 
of levels of Growth, this can cause a serious problem. 
 
And the benefit that's been left off is that the stretching doubles for 
every 15 points of Growth. At 75 points, it even becomes more efficient 
than buying pure Stretching would have been! 
 
You can see a detailed discussion of Size and Density Powers at 
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/1905/haym15.html. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:02:06 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:42 AM 11/9/97 -0800, you wrote: 
>On Saturday, November 08, 1997 1:59 PM, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
> 
> 
><snip> 
>>Density Increase, 1 LVL, 0 END Persitent, Always On, Visible. 
>Distinctive 
>>Features, Obese.  The character now weighs ~440 lbs.  How many 
>overweight 
>>people you know who take less damage from bullets? 
> 
> 
>Nope. That's growth. A person who gets broader and not taller can be 
>defined as having one level of Growth. It describes this under Growth, 
>a person with growth can be the same height as a person with one level 
>less Growth, in this case none. 
> 
 
but it could be interpreted as density increase. . .  
why would a fat person have better reach?  
in fact, why would a fat person automatically be harder  
to hit? (think 'jolly fat kung-fu monk) 
 
>People who are overweight do not get denser. If they did, they would 
>sink more readily, but they don't; they float easier. They are, in 
>fact, less dense. 
> 
>Filksinger 
> 
> 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:09:13 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
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At 04:59 AM 11/9/97 -0800, you wrote: 
>At 09:05 AM 11/3/97 -0800, Scott S. wrote: 
>>Am I the only one who thinks the defense gained from Density Increase 
>>should be resistant?  
> 
>   Now that you mention it, I think it was resistant in the earlier 
>editions.  I can only assume that it was made non-resistant for balance 
>purposes. 
 
and because it makes sence? most density incresed individuals DON'T have resistant defences to makimum. .  
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:29:24 +1000 
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Subject: Re: Density Increase 
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At 03:24 PM 11/9/97 +0500, you wrote: 
 
>>If we're talking about comparing people who are in good shape, I can see 
>>your point.  However, adipose tissue (fat) is less dense than muscle or 
>>bone tissue.  A fat person is less dense than a muscular person who 
>>displaces the same volume in the same way that a ml of He is less dense 
>>than a ml of Hg -- same volume, but Hg weighs more and increases density by 
>>D=m/v.  
>> 
>Not disagreeing with real world measurements.  I know fat is less dense than 
>muscle.  Was disagreeing that game mechanics can readily show obesity.  I 
>contended Density Increase, Filk conteded Growth, no height increase (no 
>Limitation, either). 
>I suppose it could also just be Knockback Resistance -1", Phys. Lim.: Obese, 
>DF: Obese, -1" Running... 
>But I also don't think that Density Increase is truly (necessarily) 
>increasing density, anyway...  It just increases mass, which could also be 
>looked at as specific weight. 
>It's all just SFX, but I can see now how Growth *may* be more appropriate... 
> 
 
the point about density should be this- game effect don't affect special effect! 
some 'density increase' has nothing to do with beng dense- say a pc 
with reality-warping powers who  
 
A) is more effected by gravity because he is out-of proper time phase 
 
B) more resistent to damage thanks to his mind-over-matter powers, and 
 
C) is tronger thanks to gravity and inertia manipulation. 
 
this is a valid use of density increase which has NOTHING to do with mass or  
molecular or cellular density. Please let's get away from these 'real world' 
based arguments on powers relative validity. If i want to buy a follower to  
represent me wiggling my ears that that's just as valid as any other  
interpretation. Hero powers just don't work that way, and with good reason.  
The point should be made again that it is much more easy and functionally 
valid to have density increase and grown defences non-resistant, and  
simply BUY said resistance if you so choose.  
 
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:46:43 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:02 AM 11/10/97 +1000, you wrote: 
> 
>but it could be interpreted as density increase. . .  
>why would a fat person have better reach?  
>in fact, why would a fat person automatically be harder  
>to hit? (think 'jolly fat kung-fu monk) 
> 
 
doh- this should be 'easier to hit'. .  
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 15:55:45 -0800 
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On Sunday, November 09, 1997 9:52 AM, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>Isn't 21-6=15?  That's not *that* overpriced 
 
Sorry, you are quite correct. 
 
>and being easier to see 
>isn't necessarily equal to having difficulties seeing. 
 
No, but that is a way that similar problems have been handled before. 
 
>Few to none of my Players have Growth, either, but it seems it's more 
of 
>character conception than Rules Lawyering or Power Playing. 
> 
Possibly. However, if I was a Power Gamer, I'd avoid Growth like the 
plague. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Shields and Armor... 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 09 Nov 1997 19:28:47 -0500 
Lines: 59 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes: 
 
JD> Yeah, I know.  That just seems uncomfortably close to dropping your 
JD> Armor Class (tm) by one if you have a shield... 
 
Generally, that is what a shield is for.  Shields are not used to stop 
strikes, they are used to deflect them.  They are not used "actively"; that 
is, a shield usually does not require an action to use.  It is there, 
getting in the way of incoming attacks.  As far as game mechanics go that 
is a DCV bonus. 
 
This goes for any kind of "shield", be it a steel plate strapped to one's 
arm, or a high-energy screen surrounding a starfighter. 
 
JD> and the shield on the back bit only protects you from behind, too. 
 
That's just special effects.  Any weapon will be less effective if it is 
not being weilded properly. 
 
[...] 
 
JD> Right, but if the EB is built with one recoverable charge, if the 
JD> shield doesn't bounce/boomerang back... 
 
Recoverable Charges do not automatically return to the user. 
 
JD> you can't use the other slot until you get it back, but you could still 
JD> switch it unless you popped a limitation on that slot. 
 
At which point it becomes a GM's judgement call as to how frequently lack 
of the super shield occours and thus how much the limitation is worth. 
 
[...] 
 
JD> Well, that's why I asked.  You seemed to be ignoring that bit.  In your 
JD> opinion, though, does this change at all when the rock becomes part of 
JD> the Armor?  It's still Inaccesible, and Inobvious, but it melds into 
JD> the other Focus. 
 
Then it is not a Focus anymore, it is a special effect.  If it cannot be 
taken away then it is not a Focus. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNGZVPJ6VRH7BJMxHAQF6XwP/QLfz8emsTicsyb8s4PCSDdyqhdnptX7v 
YqsBuumM4m15mEkNtwQi/YZ2DxQ+r9qhcr9izzmEGYv5w581bXCoU5eFuSc6LEgW 
q6gzjyBGjQd9JIB6kUvWwQ4yTLW6wZ/zPo+jHhW87i1xU8rXWeKpu9Hkem52Cs3a 
YlRJpJIyZX8= 
=wQHN 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should 
                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:43:02 -0800 
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On Sunday, November 09, 1997 11:11 AM, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
 
 
<snip> 
 
>Well, seeing as how this now means (if your other numbers are 
correct) that 
>you're paying 20 pts for (15+6+6+8)+(-10-6)=19 pts.  Not bad, and it 
seems 
>your point is less valid because of this...  You lose 1 pt. 
> 
And gain the inability to get through a normal door without crouching 
and twisting sideways; inability to stand in most rooms; inability to 
walk on weak surfaces; inability to walk through the drive-through at 
McDonalds without worrying about the height warning for tall vehicles; 
inability to use normal furniture, building, vehicles, etc., etc., 
etc. 
 
So, I pay an extra point, and gain a serious physical limitation. Hmm. 
Sorry, I still think it is overpriced. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:48:58 -0800 
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On Sunday, November 09, 1997 9:57 AM, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
 
>At 05:30 AM 11/9/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
 
>>Not necessarily. They have to be larger than average, because 
>>otherwise they wouldn't be easier to see and hit. 
> 
>Well, that seems patently untrue, according to the book.  In the 
passage you 
>pointed out, it states "the character can be anywhere from the height 
listed 
>to one level below his current level (though the other effects remain 
*the 
>same*)."  [emphasis mine] 
>Which seems to say that they are increasing their width at 2x/3 
levels, just 
>like before.  And, for some reason, they are easier to hit, easier to 
see, 
>etc. w/o the extra height. 
 
 
Uh, that's what I said. They are larger (not necessarilly taller), and 
that is why they are harder to hit. If they aren't taller, they should 
get wider to make up the difference and to make them easier targets. 
 
>>Therefore, if they aren't taller, they are extra wide. 
>> 
>Only by your interpretation.  It says that the other effects remain 
the 
>same.  So, at one level, he's only wider by a factor of the cube root 
of 2. 
>Even by your ruling, he would still only double in volume (max) per 
level, 
>just as he would under normally defined Growth. 
 
Yes, exactly. If a man is twice the volume by using growth, his height 
goes up by the cube root of 2, his width goes up by the cube root of 
2, and his depth goes up by the cube root of 2. 
 
However, if he doesn't have the increase in height, then he increases 
in width and depth so that he grows the same amount (measured by 
volume) as he would if he had gotten taller. Thus, his height remains 
the same, his width goes up by the _square_ root of 2, and his height 
goes up by the square root of 2. 
 
>>Since this is true of an obese person, and they are actually less 
>>dense than slender people, I have to disagree that they would still 
be 
>>denser than normal. They are wider and deeper, and this balances it 
>>out. 
>> 
>But if they only double in volume (as Growth seems to state) and they 
double 
>in mass (as Growth *does* state), then they are, at best, the *same* 
density 
>as a normal man.  Not less. 
 
Yes, _in game mechanics_. However, in real life, they are less dense. 
As the original suggestion would have made them _twice_ as dense as 
normal, and in fact they are less dense, then I thought that growth 
was a reasonable compromise. 
 
>And, actually, Growth doesn't strictly say anything about deeper, but 
I've 
>always assumed so, too... 
> 
>I think your idea has merit, but it has flaws, just as using 
Increased 
>Density does... 
 
I think you may have misunderstood the idea. I wasn't clear as to what 
was 'real world' and what was 'game mechanic'. The growth gives you 
people with exactly the same density as normal people; people who are 
obese are less dense. Growth isn't necessarily perfect, but Density 
Increase is certainly no better. 
 
Frankly, I'd just give them Phys Lim: Morbid Obesity. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:49:21 -0800 
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On Sunday, November 09, 1997 11:47 AM, Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote: 
 
 
>At 01:19 PM 11/9/97 +0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>>>Since this is true of an obese person, and they are actually less 
>>>dense than slender people, I have to disagree that they would still 
be 
>>>denser than normal. They are wider and deeper, and this balances it 
>>>out. 
>>> 
>>But if they only double in volume (as Growth seems to state) and 
they double 
>>in mass (as Growth *does* state), then they are, at best, the *same* 
density 
>>as a normal man.  Not less. 
> 
>If we're talking about comparing people who are in good shape, I can 
see 
>your point.  However, adipose tissue (fat) is less dense than muscle 
or 
>bone tissue.  A fat person is less dense than a muscular person who 
>displaces the same volume in the same way that a ml of He is less 
dense 
>than a ml of Hg -- same volume, but Hg weighs more and increases 
density by 
>D=m/v. 
 
I think that you and I are talking real world, while Jeremiah is 
talking game mechanic; hence, the confusion. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:23:46 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 04:43 PM 11/9/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>On Sunday, November 09, 1997 11:11 AM, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
><snip> 
> 
>>Well, seeing as how this now means (if your other numbers are 
>correct) that 
>>you're paying 20 pts for (15+6+6+8)+(-10-6)=19 pts.  Not bad, and it 
>seems 
>>your point is less valid because of this...  You lose 1 pt. 
>> 
>And gain the inability to get through a normal door without crouching 
>and twisting sideways; inability to stand in most rooms; inability to 
>walk on weak surfaces; 
Well, I can't walk on "weak" surfaces, either, w/o risk.  I've fallen 
through thin ice before. 
>inability to walk through the drive-through at McDonalds without worrying 
about the height warning for tall vehicles; 
Yeah, but you aren't allowed to walk through the drive-through anyway. 
>inability to use normal furniture, building, vehicles, etc., etc., 
>etc. 
> 
>So, I pay an extra point, and gain a serious physical limitation. Hmm. 
>Sorry, I still think it is overpriced. 
> 
1) I don't think it's "serious." 
2) You could probably take a Phys. Lim. if you feel this way, as well. 
I regularly allow my Players to gain DF: Powers.  Usually, it's no more than 
Easily Concealable, as they can *just turn it off*.  This is the same thing 
as the "problems" you are describing with Growth.  Take a 5 pt. Phys Lim, 
you get 4 (net) points for taking the Growth, and you can always *turn it off*! 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:26:00 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 03:55 PM 11/9/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>On Sunday, November 09, 1997 9:52 AM, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
><snip> 
>> 
>>Isn't 21-6=15?  That's not *that* overpriced 
> 
>Sorry, you are quite correct. 
> 
's ok.  Everyone makes mistakes. 
 
>>and being easier to see 
>>isn't necessarily equal to having difficulties seeing. 
> 
>No, but that is a way that similar problems have been handled before. 
> 
I guess I just haven't seen them handled this way...  but I can't think of 
any other ways to do it, either. 
 
>>Few to none of my Players have Growth, either, but it seems it's more 
>of 
>>character conception than Rules Lawyering or Power Playing. 
>> 
>Possibly. However, if I was a Power Gamer, I'd avoid Growth like the 
>plague. 
> 
And Luck.  And you'd probably buy a STR higher than character conception 
because of all the bonuses it gives. 
But this has little to do with my earlier points. 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:38:35 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 04:48 PM 11/9/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>On Sunday, November 09, 1997 9:57 AM, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>>Well, that seems patently untrue... 
<snip my explanation, which was either very poor, or taken out of context> 
> 
>Uh, that's what I said. They are larger (not necessarilly taller), and 
>that is why they are harder to hit. If they aren't taller, they should 
>get wider to make up the difference and to make them easier targets. 
> 
Okay.  Yes, they are larger.  But the book only states that they gain height 
and width (depth is assumed).  If you negate the height, as the book says 
you may, you don't necessarily give them *even more* width (and depth).  The 
book doesn't say you do, it is *your* interpretation.  There, that's what I 
was *trying* to say, I think. 
 
>Yes, exactly. If a man is twice the volume by using growth, his height 
>goes up by the cube root of 2, his width goes up by the cube root of 
>2, and his depth goes up by the cube root of 2. 
> 
>However, if he doesn't have the increase in height, then he increases 
>in width and depth so that he grows the same amount (measured by 
>volume) as he would if he had gotten taller. Thus, his height remains 
>the same, his width goes up by the _square_ root of 2, and his height 
>goes up by the square root of 2. 
> 
Again, by your interpretation.  Which is not unreasonable, but *is* an 
interpretation. 
 
>>But if they only double in volume (as Growth seems to state) and they 
>double 
>>in mass (as Growth *does* state), then they are, at best, the *same* 
>density 
>>as a normal man.  Not less. 
> 
>Yes, _in game mechanics_. However, in real life, they are less dense. 
>As the original suggestion would have made them _twice_ as dense as 
>normal, and in fact they are less dense, then I thought that growth 
>was a reasonable compromise. 
> 
Replacing something wrong with something wrong is a "reasonable compromise?" 
I can see that you are trying to move in the correct direction, but... 
I still don't think that "Density Increase" needs to have the SFX "Increases 
in Density."  It could simply cause an increase in weight, and have SFX of 
"Fat." 
 
>I think you may have misunderstood the idea. I wasn't clear as to what 
>was 'real world' and what was 'game mechanic'. The growth gives you 
>people with exactly the same density as normal people; people who are 
>obese are less dense. Growth isn't necessarily perfect, but Density 
>Increase is certainly no better. 
> 
The idea (from my understanding) was that you disagreed with DI due to the 
"real world."  Then you gave a different interpretation, which still didn't 
agree with the "real world."  I was trying to hash out the differences 
between the two game mechanic terms, as compared to the "real world" 
actuality of it, and determine if SFX could also make up for the differences. 
 
>Frankly, I'd just give them Phys Lim: Morbid Obesity. 
> 
Which I'd (also frankly) rather not do.  Phys. Lims. are ill-defined, and it 
still wouldn't reflect the fact that they would be harder to move (Knockback 
Resistance), possibly stronger (to lift their own weight), etc.  Just as a 
child should buy Shrinking, 0 END, Persitant, Always On, an obese person 
should probably buy either DI or Growth with those same Lims/Advs.  They 
could *also* get a Phys Lim or DF or both as well... 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:43:15 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 04:49 PM 11/9/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>On Sunday, November 09, 1997 11:47 AM, Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote: 
>>If we're talking about comparing people who are in good shape, I can 
>see 
>>your point.  However, adipose tissue (fat) is less dense than muscle 
>or 
>>bone tissue.  A fat person is less dense than a muscular person who 
>>displaces the same volume in the same way that a ml of He is less 
>dense 
>>than a ml of Hg -- same volume, but Hg weighs more and increases 
>density by 
>>D=m/v. 
> 
>I think that you and I are talking real world, while Jeremiah is 
>talking game mechanic; hence, the confusion. 
> 
I would accept this statement from you except for one main point.  You 
*weren't* talking *only* real world.  If you were, the terms "Growth, one 
level, 0 END, Persitent, Always On" wouldn't've come up in your end of the 
conversation. 
 
I realize that fat is less dense than muscle.  I've lifeguarded and 
instructed swimming and lifesaving classes for 5 summers.  Just from my own 
body's experience, I know that once I lost the extra 20 pounds from junior 
high, I started to sink like a rock! 
So, the *average* "fat" person will float better than the *average* "skinny" 
person.  But it isn't always this way, either. 
 
- Jerry 
 
Subject: Re: General Questions (# 3) 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 97 07:36:03 -0500 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 11/8/97 3:32 AM, Vox Ludator! (ludator@mail.softfarm.com) Said: 
 
>>   A regular desktop computer, not designed to do any physical 
>>interactions, can get by just fine with a DEX of 10. 
> 
>Problem: since DEX determines initiative for all things, this means it's 
>impossible to write a video game that can beat anyone who's slightly better 
>than average. :/ 
> 
 
assuming the computer is limited to a SPD of 2-3, which it is not. 
 
                                         |  David A. Fair 
        Think Different                  |  SDS International 
                                         |  dfair@sdslink.com 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 05:19:07 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:02 AM 11/10/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
>but it could be interpreted as density increase. . .  
>why would a fat person have better reach?  
>in fact, why would a fat person automatically be [easier]  
>to hit? (think 'jolly fat kung-fu monk) 
 
   [Correction made as per another post of yours.] 
   Because it's easier to hit a large target than a small one. 
   Your "jolly fat kung-fu monk" would indeed be hard to hit, but it's 
because his immense skill at martial arts more than makes up for the minor 
DCV penalty he gets for his immense size. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 07:58:24 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Frequently Debated Topics (was Re: Starter Questions) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:22 AM 11/9/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Someone else (I forget whom) was working on an FDT list to parallel the 
>FAQ.  I do not know the status of that document. 
 
Well, I'd started work on the thing, but I lost net access during the big 
"what should go in this file" thread. :[ :[ :[ I don't know if anyone else 
was working on the FDT independently. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:39:04 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden 
Subject: Re: Growth Efficiency 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
 
> And the benefit that's been left off is that the stretching doubles for 
> every 15 points of Growth. At 75 points, it even becomes more efficient 
> than buying pure Stretching would have been! 
 
And we all know how grossly over-efficient Stretching is.:) 
 
 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:58:11 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden 
Subject: Re: Star Armor was (Re: Shields and Armor...) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
It seems to me that this is just an unusual case of a problem which has 
occurred to me before... a Focus which is Obvious when used, but Inobvious 
otherwise. The book suggests that this is just bought as Obvious, which 
seems a bit unfair to the characters with "Totally Obvious" Foci, but I 
suppose it's not enough of a difference to merit a different level of 
Limitation. 
 
OTOH, this case does differ somewhat from the textbook case of the magic 
ring. Anybody who sees Dr. Mist shoot powerbolts out of his ring will know 
that he or she had better confiscate that ring whenever they get the 
chance. Seeing Star Guardian use his armour won't tip you off to the fact 
that the stone is important. Is that significant enough to warrant a 
lesser Limitation? I'd still say probably not, but it's a judgement call. 
 
 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:00:51 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden 
Subject: Re: Dear ChampionPersons 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
> - Jerry, who wonders why X-ray Vision was 20 pt. and N-ray Vision was 30... 
 
I'd assumed it was because X-Ray Vision was something of a genre standard, 
so people who wanted to hide something (in a superhero universe) would be 
more likely to hide it behind lead or other dense minerals than behind 
whatever odd thing stops some particular N-Ray. 
 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:06:12 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
X-Sender: tbarrie@drollsden 
Subject: Re: Acronyms 
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On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
> Nice, even if it is fake. :]  A long while back, I got sick of Champions's 
> "Not-An-Acronymitis" and started assigning acronyms to any organization they 
> insisted on printing in all-caps (VIPER, for example, is "Vanguard In 
> Preparation for Earth's Rule").  I worked out DEMON in latin, beginning with 
> "Deus Es Mortum" (God Is Dead) ... then promptly forgot it. I've been trying 
> to work out those last two letters for the past year, and still haven't 
> found a satisfactory solution. 
 
Come up with one for "GENOCIDE" and I'll really be impressed.:) 
 
 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:47:36 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
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At 07:04 PM 11/10/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>True. They don't have to get wider, but that is certainly a valid 
>special effect. In my campaign, that would probably be default. In 
>order to gain the same mass without increasing density, they would 
>have to get wider. Furthermore, in order to gain the same surface 
>area, so as to maintain the same target size, they would have to get 
>even wider yet. This would, of course, lower their density, thereby 
>simulating obesity even better. (Hmm.) 
> 
Hmm, yes.  I think.  <has to do the math later> 
 
>Except that Density Increase makes a person too heavy to swim, and 
>doesn't make it difficult to fit into small spaces, through small 
>holes, or into special gear, all of which could be a significant 
>problem to an obese person. 
> 
The one problem I have here is that it doesn't state the "too heavy to swim" 
clause under the description...  I'll agree that the rest (and that, too) 
could be taken care of with a Phys Lim. 
 
>True. However, Density Increase, by default, does not increase size, 
>and does increase density. Growth, also by default, does increase 
>size, and does not increase density. Using the defaults, I still 
>contend that Growth fits better. 
> 
I still think this is a SFX disagreement, and I contend (still) that Density 
Increase does *not* necessarily increase your density.  (That *is* usually 
the SFX chosen, tho.) 
 
>As a person who has morbid obesity, and who knows people who have 
>morbid obesity, I know that obese persons are not normally much 
>stronger than their thin counterparts. In fact, I'd say they tend to 
>be less strong, due to lack of exercise. Any increase in strength is 
>almost entirely in the lower back and legs, and is counteracted by the 
>increase in weight. 
> 
Well, I suppose you would know better than I, and I bow to your knowledge. 
But Growth also increases your STR, at least marginally.  So, this'd be 
another area where Growth falls down as well.  Honestly, tho, I am agreeing 
with you more and more. 
 
>Well, if you bought Growth, with the SFX that your height was 
>unchanged and your width and depth increased proportionally... 
<snip> 
>So Growth doesn't require any limitations or unusual SFX to work... 
These two ideas seem to be mutually exclusive...  and DI doesn't need any 
Limitations, just maybe an extra Disadvantage, which you could (probably) 
get w/ Growth, as well. 
 
>I'll stick with Growth, myself. 
> 
And I may just switch over, myself. 
Thanks for putting up with me this long, Filk. 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:05:20 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Aura Sight 
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At 06:02 PM 11/11/97 -0600, darkwraith@worldnet.att.net wrote: 
>> Um, Rook, I don't have Horror Hero.  I realize you may have wanted to 
>avoid 
>> putting published material on here, but could you at least gimme a hint? 
>> Thanks. 
>> Personally, I'd be willing to say Mental Awareness and a loopy Detect. 
>>  
>how about aura sight discrimatory? 
> 
But what do you consider to be aura sight?  I was figuring the Detect to 
have Discriminatory, so you could see the colors and not simply see "an" 
aura without a way to distinguish between types and colors. 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:16:52 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Dear ChampionPersons 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 12:13 PM 11/10/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>On Monday, November 10, 1997 8:55 AM, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>>On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>> 
>>> - Jerry, who wonders why X-ray Vision was 20 pt. and N-ray Vision 
>was 30... 
>> 
>>I'd assumed it was because X-Ray Vision was something of a genre 
>standard, 
>>so people who wanted to hide something (in a superhero universe) 
>would be 
>>more likely to hide it behind lead or other dense minerals than 
>behind 
>>whatever odd thing stops some particular N-Ray. 
> 
>N-Ray allowed normal vision through solid objects, X-Ray gave you 
>vague black and white pictures, like an X-Ray. 
> 
Nope, at least not in the Champions book I'm quoting out of...  Could be 
that X-ray was already defined, and N-ray gave you flexibility... 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:27:17 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Density Decrease 
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	Density Decrease dosen't exist. 
	If it did, however, it would assumabally decrease mass and increase 
knockback... 
 
	So, if a player wanted to be 'Captain Featherweight,'could 
you create DD?  Could you construct it with the currently available powers? 
Could you gain extra points from taking the opposite of KB resistance? 
 
Could you gain extra points from taking the opposite of KB resistance? 
If you wanted the STR from Density Increase to effect Figured Char., 
how much of an Advantage would you tack on?  What about the STR and 
BODY from growth? 
 
	What are the effects of Growth, DI, and the mythical DD on 
movement powers? 
 
	...and what about manuevering in space?   
 
				Nuke in one hand, Black Hole in the other, 
						Jason Sullivan 
 
X-Sender: jhebert@texas.net 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:52:46 -0600 
From: Jeff Hebert <jhebert@texas.net> 
Subject: Re: Acronyms 
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At 01:06 PM 11/10/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
> 
>> Nice, even if it is fake. :]  A long while back, I got sick of Champions's 
>> "Not-An-Acronymitis" and started assigning acronyms to any organization 
they 
>> insisted on printing in all-caps (VIPER, for example, is "Vanguard In 
>> Preparation for Earth's Rule").  I worked out DEMON in latin, beginning 
with 
>> "Deus Es Mortum" (God Is Dead) ... then promptly forgot it. I've been 
trying 
>> to work out those last two letters for the past year, and still haven't 
>> found a satisfactory solution. 
> 
>Come up with one for "GENOCIDE" and I'll really be impressed.:) 
> 
How about: 
 
G Genetic 
E Eunuchs 
N Nuking 
O Other 
C Countries 
I Into 
D Denuded 
E Excrement 
 
Or 
 
G Guardians of 
E Ethnicly 
N Noble 
O Organisms and 
C Crusaders for  
I International 
D DNA 
E Euthanasia 
 
Or 
 
G Guaranteeing the 
E Ethnic 
N Neutralization 
O Of 
C Countries 
I Inhabited by 
D DNA 
E Eunuchs 
 
Or 
 
G Generally 
E Eerie 
N Nutcases 
O Opposed to  
C Chubby 
I Irritating 
D Dames 
E Evermore 
 
Sorry, I slipped into Irrelevant Man mode for a moment there ... 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
               Jeff Hebert 
            jhebert@texas.net 
    Visit the home page of The Crusaders! -- 
 http://lonestar.texas.net/~jhebert/crusaders.htm 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Dear ChampionPersons 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:13:25 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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On Monday, November 10, 1997 8:55 AM, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
 
 
>On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
> 
>> - Jerry, who wonders why X-ray Vision was 20 pt. and N-ray Vision 
was 30... 
> 
>I'd assumed it was because X-Ray Vision was something of a genre 
standard, 
>so people who wanted to hide something (in a superhero universe) 
would be 
>more likely to hide it behind lead or other dense minerals than 
behind 
>whatever odd thing stops some particular N-Ray. 
 
 
N-Ray allowed normal vision through solid objects, X-Ray gave you 
vague black and white pictures, like an X-Ray. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> 
From: "The Ineffable Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:46:48 +0000 
Subject: Voodoo 
Reply-to: ghoyle1@airmail.net 
Priority: normal 
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Hey all,  
 
Does anybody have any thoughts on portraying voudoun (aka voodoo) in  
Hero terms? The writeup in Horror Hero isn't very complete.  This is  
for a character in my new Pulp Campaign, TALES OF THE ODYSSEUS  
LEAGUE, which ran for the first time this past Saturday night. 
 
Guy 
---------------------------------- 
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com) 
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/ 
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf 
and the PANGAEA Project! 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:05:27 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:19 AM 11/10/97 -0800, you wrote: 
>At 08:02 AM 11/10/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
>>but it could be interpreted as density increase. . .  
>>why would a fat person have better reach?  
>>in fact, why would a fat person automatically be [easier]  
>>to hit? (think 'jolly fat kung-fu monk) 
> 
>   [Correction made as per another post of yours.] 
>   Because it's easier to hit a large target than a small one. 
>   Your "jolly fat kung-fu monk" would indeed be hard to hit, but it's 
>because his immense skill at martial arts more than makes up for the minor 
>DCV penalty he gets for his immense size. 
 
So a skinny monk would be harder to hit? Once again, you are attempting 
to ue real-world logic- what it comes down to is that these are both valid 
interpretations of obesity, but SO IS DENSITY INCREASE! And it makes 
much more sence to leave density increase as an 'open' power, instead of 
turning it into 'rockform' or something simmilar.  .  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Density Decrease 
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Date: 10 Nov 1997 17:06:59 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "AAM" == ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> writes: 
 
AAM> 	Density Decrease dosen't exist. 
 
It does, as a special effect of Flight. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Star Armor was (Re: Shields and Armor...) 
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>>>>> "TB" == Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> writes: 
 
TB> It seems to me that this is just an unusual case of a problem which has 
TB> occurred to me before... a Focus which is Obvious when used, but 
TB> Inobvious otherwise. 
 
Read the description of Focus: it applies when the Focused power is in use. 
If the source of the power is obviously the thing in question, it is an 
Obvious Focus; if it is not, then it is an Inobvious Focus. 
 
A handgun is an Obvious Focus even if it is concealed in a cane.  The cane 
is obviously the source of the power. 
 
Ninja Hero has a slightly different take on the topic.  A Focus (weapon) 
that is normally obvious in use but is otherwise "concealed" may be taken 
as an Inobvious Focus.  The benefit of doing it this way is that such a 
Focus will not be discovered as a Focus in a casual search.  So the example 
cane could be an Inobvious Focus, and a casual search of it will not reveal 
things like the muzzle or receiver. 
 
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--  
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:53:37 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: TUSV: Revised Mass Combat Rules (Quite Long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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   Here are the Mass Combat Rules as I currently have them in my manuscript 
for The Ultimate Super Vehicle.  This text is still mostly taken verbatim 
from the Fantasy Hero Companion, with some of the wordings changed to 
reflect the fact that this is focusing on vehicle combat.  However, I've 
lifted some stuff from the George MacDonald article from Adventurers' Club 
which two different people sent me (thanks guys, both copies were helpful), 
and put in a couple of minor things based on a couple of comments folks 
made during that discussion. 
   My sincere apologies to anyone who downloaded this big (33K by my 
reckoning) post, and aren't all that interested in it. 
   As always, specific comments on these rules are very welcome. 
 
                           Optional Mass Combat Rules 
 
   Not all battles between vehicles are one-on-one, or in small groups. 
Indeed, large numbers of vehicles engaging each other are an increasing 
occurrence in fiction, and has of course take place frequently in history, 
especially since the advent of air warfare. 
   In general, the GM should let the outcome of large battles be directed 
by his plots.  For example, if the GM wants the characters to be trapped on 
an invaded colony world, he should simply say that a huge fleet of alien 
ships has landed and taken over.  Similarly, if he wants the Narf Republic 
to be defeated by the Troz Empire, then the Narfians should just lose 
(thereby requiring the PCs to sneak about, join the resistance movement, 
and so forth). 
   Even in insignificant battles, the GM can focus on the tactical role of 
the PCs and their individual vehicles, rather than on the battle itself. 
Thus, the PCs can command a small wing of fighters behind enemy lines, or 
they can lead a charge that turns the tide, or they can hold a breach in 
the station's defense field, preventing an enemy breakthrough.  So long as 
the characters are only interested in a small part of the battle, the GM 
can resolve the rest of it however he chooses. 
   But what should the GM do if the PCs are concerned with the outcome of 
the entire battle?  In this case, the GM can use the following mass combat 
system.  The system is intended to be quick and simple, and emphasizes the 
role of the PCs and other heroic (or villainous) figures. 
 
   The Basis of Mass Vehicle Combat 
 
   Hero System mass vehicle combat is based on the Characteristics and 
abilities of the individual vehicles in the various units, and their 
operators.  Combat can also be strongly affected by the actions and 
abilities of the extraordinary characters that lead or fight in those 
units.  (The effect of extraordinary characters, vehicles, or even 
creatures is described below.) 
   In combat, units move and act using most of the same rules that 
individual characters and vehicles use in normal combat.  They use the 
Speed Chart and act on Phases, they move based on their movement value, 
they use Combat Maneuvers, and they make attack rolls based on their CVs. 
   If an attack is successful, the enemy unit may have to make a Morale 
Roll.  When a unit fails a Morale Roll, its readiness for combat is 
reduced.  If the unit's readiness is reduced enough, the unit routs and is 
effectively destroyed.  Combat continues until one side or the other 
retreats, routs, or surrenders. 
 
Before Mass Combat 
 
   To set up a mass combat, the GM defines when and where the battle takes 
place.  Then he decides on the type and size of various units on each side, 
selects the scale and terrain of the battle, and defines any special 
conditions of the engagement.  All of these are described in detail below. 
 
Strategic Maneuvering 
 
   Before the battle, there will likely be a period of maneuvering.  The GM 
can use this to determine the location of the battle, and any interesting 
terrain features.  For example, if a group of alien invaders is trying to 
force its way past a perimeter of tanks, then the tanks will likely be on 
the defensive.  If the tanks are holding a mountain pass, then the GM can 
set up the battlefield accordingly. 
   Of course, many battles, at least in science-fiction settings, will be 
in outer space, where there generally are no features (at least, not 
natural ones).  In cases where the battle is on a planet or other surface, 
however, the area should be as tactically interesting as possible.  The GM 
should endeavor to include river crossings, copses of trees, hills, blind 
spots, buildings, etc.  (See the section on Movement for more details on 
setting up a battlefield.) 
 
Unit Size 
 
   To set up a Mass Combat, the GM should divide the forces on each side 
into 3 to 30 units.  Each unit should have a roughly similar number of 
"troops" (individuals, whether fighting vehicles, literal troops, or 
whatever).  If one side heavily outnumbers the other, the units of the 
larger side may have two to three times the troops of the units of the 
smaller side.  However, when the GM divides up the units, he should try to 
make sure that the largest unit has no more than four times the number of 
troops of the smaller unit. 
 
Game Scale 
 
   In general, the ground and time scales for mass combat are flexible and 
not overly important to the final outcome.  No matter what the scale, units 
will move and attack once per Phase, just like regular characters and 
vehicles.  The more troops in an average unit, the larger the ground scale 
and time scale should be that is used to easily handle the units' 
capabilities.  While two individuals can fight in seconds, it usually takes 
longer for two armies to engage in battle. 
   To determine an appropriate scale for a mass combat, the GM should 
estimate the average number of troops per unit.  If there are 1-3 troops 
per unit, the battle should use normal Hero System combat  there is no 
real reason to use the mass combat rules.  If there are 4 or more troops 
per unit, refer to the Mass Combat Scale Chart to find an appropriate time 
and distance scale.  When in doubt, the GM should choose the larger scale. 
   Note that the expansions on this scale are in addition to considerations 
of vehicle size (see Scale of Battle, above).  Thus, if a unit consists of 
a dozen SF-1 Space Fighters (from Chapter Six), which measure 10 meters in 
length, then time and distance would operate at a scale of 16. 
   Units making ranged attacks use the normal Range Modifier Chart and 
count each hex as an inch.  However, as with scale alternations for vehicle 
size, it's important to take into account the greater size of large hexes. 
All units making ranged attacks take an additional Scale Modifier to their 
OCVs.  Also, each weapon should have its Maximum Range divided by the Time 
& Distance multiple to find its maximum range in the larger hex scale.  At 
large scales, ranged weapons become much less important because of large 
negative modifiers.  The exception here is where two opposing units are in 
adjacent hexes; in this case, all Range Modifiers are automatically 0. 
[Begin Sidebar] 
The Unit Names given here are just off-the-cuff ideas operating on the 
assumption that the unit is a space fighter unit.  Ground, army, air, or 
even different space units might use different names. 
[End Sidebar] 
                           Mass Combat Scale Chart 
Avg. Troops  Unit Name   Time/Distance  Turn      Hex   Scale Mod 
1-3          Individual  1             12 sec    2m    0 
4-15         Wing        4             48 sec    8m    -4 
16-63        Squadron    8             1.5 min   16m   -6 
64-249       Company     16            3 min     32m   -8 
250-999      Regiment    32            6 min     64m   -10 
1000-1999    Force       64            12 min    125m  -12 
4000-15,999  Division    125           24 min    250m  -14 
etc. 
 
Unit Descriptions 
 
   Each of the units should be written up on a Unit Summary Sheet (in the 
Appendices).  This summary includes all the information necessary to carry 
out the battle using the mass combat system.  (It might be a good idea to 
use index cards to keep track of these values, one for each unit.) 
   To define the characteristics of a mass combat unit, the GM should write 
up and equip a single "trooper" in the unit  in this case, an individual 
vehicle and its operator.  The most important values to consider are DEX, 
SPD, OCV, DCV, Weapon Damage, Armor DEF, BODY, and Movement.  For 
simplicity, any levels should be divided between OCV and DCV before the 
battle, and then left where it is. 
   A unit is also defined by the number of troops in the unit, the unit's 
Morale Roll, the unit's current state of combat readiness, and any special 
equipment. 
   The number of troops in a unit functions as a modifier on the unit's 
ability to deliver and absorb damage.  Add the Unit Size Modifier from the 
chart below to the individual trooper's Weapon Damage and BODY score to get 
the characteristics for the unit as a whole. 
        Unit Size Chart 
# of Troops  Unit Size Mod 
1              0 
2             +2 
3             +3 
4             +4 
6             +5 
8             +6 
12            +7 
16            +8 
24            +9 
32           +10 
48           +11 
64           +12 
96           +13 
125          +14 
187          +15 
250          +16 
375          +17 
500          +18 
750          +19 
1000         +20 
etc.         etc. 
 
Morale Roll 
   The Morale Roll represents a unit's chance to stay organized and 
coherent after taking losses.  This morale is based on the inherent bravery 
of the troops (represented by EGO) and the amount of training they have 
received.  Completely untrained troops, like a beginning cell of a 
resistance movement (who would have no Weapon Familiarity Skills) have an 
8- Morale Roll.  Troops that have a Weapon Familiarity have a Morale Roll 
equal to its base EGO Roll (9+EGO/5).  Additional training can raise this 
Morale Roll even higher; the GM can define this as a 3 point Skill Level 
with Mass Combat, or he can simply assign a bonus to a unit's Morale Roll 
based on how long the unit has been training together. 
   Psychological Limitations can also have an effect on Morale.  If the 
troops in a unit have a Moderate Psychological Limitation that supports 
continued fighting, then the Morale Roll is at +2.  If the Psychological 
Limitation is Strong, then the Morale Roll is at +4.  If it's Total, then 
it's at +6.  These bonuses are cumulative (having two Total Psychological 
Limitations gives a +12 bonus).  The troops also take penalties of -2, -4, 
or -6 if they have Psychological Limitations that resist continued fighting. 
   Self-piloting vehicles (and other entities which have INT but no EGO) 
have a Morale Roll of 11-.  While certainly fearless, such automatons 
aren't very good at initiating action (this being the primary 
characteristic of having no EGO characteristic), and quickly become 
disorganized and scattered in battle.  However, if they have a Tactics 
Skill, then they may use that Skill to simulate Morale; this would 
represent an improved ability to adapt to a changing situation. 
 
   Movement 
 
   As with most combat, mass combat encounters are fought on a map.  Unless 
the encounter is taking place in outer space, the GM should draw the map 
and include terrain and natural barriers that armies, navies, and air 
forces can anchor their flanks on.  Battles are often decided by the 
terrain the opposing commanders choose as their battlefield. 
   To move, units act just like individuals, using most of the same basic 
maneuvers.  Units may half move and attack, execute noncombat movement, or 
execute most other maneuvers that individual vehicles may execute.  (If a 
player wants a unit to execute a special maneuver such as those  listed 
earlier in this chapter, then the GM should exercise his own judgement as 
to whether it's allowable.)  They move and act on their DEX and SPD, just 
like individual vehicles. 
   On the map, units have a facing, just like individual vehicles.  A unit 
attacked on the front gets its full DCV, and any defenses that operate on 
the vehicles' front; it can also counterattack using weapons mounted on the 
front which have a Limited Arc of Fire.  A unit attacked from the rear or 
flank gets half its DCV, and gets no use of front-oriented defenses or 
weapons. 
   GMs should use the Ignoring Enemies rule (above) to discourage units 
from moving through small gaps in a defensive line. 
   A unit may "form square" when it is in danger of being surrounded.  All 
attacks against a unit in "square" are against the front of the unit, but a 
unit in "square" may only move 1 hex per Phase. 
   With a Ranged Attack, modify the attacker's OCV by the normal Range 
Modifiers and the Scale Modifier based on the scale of the battlefield 
(unless the two units are adjacent to each other, in which case the Range 
Modifier is automatically 0).  Ranged attacks are applied like normal 
attacks (see below). 
   Only one unit can be in each hex; units may not "stack."  Leaders or 
other individuals may be in the same hex with a unit; they do not count as 
stacked.  Unless the characters in a hex are all alone, any attack aimed at 
the unit does not necessarily affect the separate leader or other 
individuals in the hex. 
 
Terrain 
 
   In ground-based encounters, terrain can affect movement and combat. 
Some terrain (like thick scrub or rough boulders) may cost double or triple 
to move through.  Some terrain (like thick forest or swamp) may affect 
different types of vehicles differently.  Some terrain (like rivers) may be 
impassible for most ground vehicles, while shallow, rocky waters may be a 
hazard to water vehicles.  Sometimes even aerial craft can be affected by 
terrain, if they're flying low enough.  The Terrain Effects Chart lists 
some possible terrain effects. 
    Terrain Effects Chart 
Terrain       Combat Effects  Movement Effects 
Clear                         
Rough                        1/2 for ground forces 
Trees         +2 DCV          1/2 for all forces 
Thick Forest  +4 DCV          1/3, no vehicles over SIZE 2 
Village       +2 DCV           
Town          +4 DCV           
City          +4 DCV          1/2, no vehicles over SIZE 10 
Hill                         1/2 for ground vehicles 
Swamp                        1/3, no ground vehicles 
Stream        +2 DCV          1/3, no ground vehicles 
River                        No ground vehicles 
 
   Combat 
 
   Mass combat occurs much like normal Hero System combat, except that 
defenders do not lose BODY when they are hit; they lose "readiness." 
Readiness indicates the ability of the unit to continue the battle. 
Similarly, a unit does not Recover (in the traditional sense) at the end of 
Segment 12; it attempts to "rally."  Any unit, even one made up of 
self-piloting vehicles (which would not normally be able to Recover), may 
rally. 
 
Fighting 
 
   A unit that is adjacent to another unit may attack it, using the same 
rules as those for individual characters and vehicles.  Similarly, units 
that have ranged attacks can use them against any target that they can see 
(or otherwise draw a bead on with a Targeting Sense that all individuals in 
the unit can use).  In addition to normal penalties, ranged attacks should 
also take a penalty for the Scale Modifier. 
   In general, a unit can choose any combat maneuver available to all its 
members.  Most vehicles use ranged attacks only, or occasionally Dodge, 
though giant robots in battle can also Strike, Block, and perform other 
combat maneuvers normally associated with regular characters, including 
Martial Arts maneuvers.  However, the larger the unit, the more difficult 
it is to coordinate intricate maneuvers.  For any unit above Wing size (16 
or more individuals), the GM should sharply restrict difficult maneuvers 
such as many Martial Arts maneuvers with special effects (like Shove or 
Disarm).  For units above Squadron size (64 or more individuals), maneuvers 
should generally be limited to Strike, Dodge, and ranged attacks. 
   Attacks are handled in a manner similar to Autofire.  The Unit Size 
Chart is used for the attacker's OCV (but not for the defender's DCV).  An 
exact hit means that one defender was struck.  For every +1 the Attack Roll 
is made by, the number of defenders who are hit doubles, up to the number 
of attackers or the number of defenders, whichever is less.  The GM should 
choose at random which targets are struck by whatever method he feels most 
comfortable with, and subtract the damage accordingly; the same Damage Roll 
is used for all attacks. 
 
Simplified Damage Results 
   For units whose troops are "Faceless Masses," the GM may use an abstract 
system of damage resolution.  In this simplified system, each target has 
only six different states: Awake, Hit, Stunned, Damaged, Unconscious, and 
Dead.  The GM doesn't need to keep track of BODY (nor STUN, for those units 
that have STUN), just each individual's Status. 
   To use this system, the GM should record from two to eight breakpoints 
for each troop type.  The basic breakpoints for an organic troop are its 
DEF, DEF+CON, DEF+STUN, and DEF+BODY; for a vehicle, they are DEF and 
DEF+BODY.  If the troop's Physical and Energy defenses are different, then 
separate breakpoints will be needed for each. 
   All troops start out Awake.  The chart below shows how different attacks 
will affect each target: 
        Simplified Damage Results Table 
STUN Exceeds  Target Starts Out  Target Becomes 
DEF           Awake                         Hit 
              Hit                           Damaged 
              Stunned, Damaged              Unconscious 
              Unconscious, Dead             same 
DEF+CON       Awake, Hit                    Stunned 
              Stunned, Damaged              Unconscious 
              Unconscious, Dead             same 
DEF+STUN      Awake, Hit, Stunned, Damaged  Unconscious 
              Unconscious, Dead             same 
 
BODY Exceeds  Target Starts Out             Target Becomes 
DEF           Awake, Hit, Stunned           Damaged 
              Damaged, Unconscious, Dead    same 
DEF+BODY      any                           Dead 
 
   Vehicles and other entities that do not have STUN do not worry about the 
upper part of the chart.  However, a vehicle that is Damaged will often 
pass on some of the damage to the operator; treat the vehicle's DEF like a 
Force Wall, just as normal. 
 
Checking for Morale 
   When an attacking unit succeeds in hitting its target, it rolls damage 
for its weapon.  The individual Troops take damage normally (as mentioned 
above), but the unit also takes damage after a fashion.  This damage is the 
same as the BODY damage done by the weapons, but modified by the Unit Size 
Modifier  bigger units do more damage.  The defender subtracts his DEF 
from this damage to determine the BODY taken. 
   If the total BODY taken by a unit (including that taken from previous 
attacks) is less than half the defender's modified BODY, then the attack 
has no effect.  If the total damage is at least half the defender's 
modified BODY, then the defender must make a Morale Roll.  If the damage 
exceeds the defender's modified BODY, there may be a penalty to the 
defender's Morale Roll; the defender must make his Morale Roll at -1 for 
every 2 points (rounded up) that the attack exceeds his BODY. 
   If the defender makes his modified Morale Roll, then the attack has no 
effect.  If the defender misses his Morale Roll, he loses a level of 
readiness.  In addition, he must immediately make a Morale Roll, with the 
same modifiers as the first Morale Roll.  A unit must continue making 
Morale Rolls until it succeeds or routs entirely. 
   The GM may require units to attempt a Morale Roll whenever they try to 
do something special or face a major danger in a battle.  This can include 
the first time a unit enters battle, when its leader is killed, or when an 
adjacent unit routs.  If a unit fails its Morale Roll, it may fail to do a 
complex action, refuse to attack the enemy, or even lose a state of readiness. 
   A Morale Roll can be modified by the particular situation of the unit in 
combat.  A character can lead or inspire a unit in combat (see below). 
   Other possible modifiers are listed on the Presence Attack Modifiers 
Table in the Hero System Rulesbook (page 170).  Each +1d6 adds +1 to the 
Morale Roll; each -1d6 is -1 to the Roll.  GMs should ignore the -1d6 for 
"in combat," but all other modifiers are appropriate.  For example, 
attackers who are taking their opponents by surprise receive a +1 to their 
Morale Roll; but attackers who are at a disadvantage receive -1.  GMs 
should apply additional modifiers as appropriate. 
 
Area Effect Attacks 
   Area Effect and Explosion attacks are made like other attacks except 
that they have modifiers for their area of effect.  This has different 
effects for the standard damage done, and for the damage done to Morale. 
   Standard damage attacks should be treated more or less like normal 
attacks, with the same modifiers as those mentioned above.  The radius of 
an attack should be divided by the Scale Modifier; generally, this will 
mean that an attack just fills a strategic hex.  When this is the case, 
every individual in the unit will be affected by any Area Effect or 
Explosion attack that hits the hex that the unit is in. 
   For purposes of Morale, each "volley" of such an attack is simulated by 
the firing of a single attack with the Unit Size Modifier added to the 
attack's BODY (just as a volley of regular ranged attacks is represented by 
a single attack).  All Area Effect and Explosion attacks will probably 
affect only one unit.  To represent the area effect of a weapon attacking 
many targets at the same time, multiply the BODY of any Area Effect attack 
by 2, and multiply the BODY done by any Explosion attack by 1, before 
adding the Unit Size Modifier.  Each additional + Advantage that increases 
the area of the attack increases the BODY multiple by + as well.  Thus, an 
attack with an Explosion that loses -1 DC per 3" (a + + + = +1 
Advantage) would multiply the BODY by 2. 
 
Readiness 
   The strength of a unit is based on its ability to stay organized and 
coherent.  Long before a majority of the individuals are destroyed, the 
unit's morale will break and its ability to wage combat will be destroyed. 
A unit can have one of four states of readiness, as shown on the Readiness 
Chart below. 
 
   Readiness Chart 
Readiness State  Effect 
Fully Ready      No Modifiers 
Disrupted        -2 to OCV, DCV, and Morale Roll 
Scattered        -4 to OCV, DCV, and Morale Roll 
Routed           Eliminated 
 
   As a unit's readiness changes, it will take casualties (see below). 
 
Rally 
 
   At the end of Segment 12, each Disrupted and Scattered unit has a chance 
to rally, and recover some of its readiness.  If the unit makes a Morale 
Roll, it recovers a step of readiness (from Scattered to Disrupted, or from 
Disrupted to Fully Ready). 
   A unit may also try to rally on any of its Phases; this works just like 
a normal character Recovering.  A unit must declare its intention to 
attempt to rally as its action.  It may do nothing else that Phase.  If the 
unit is hit by an attack before its next Phase, the rally attempt 
automatically fails.  If the unit is not hit by an attack before the next 
Phase, and makes a Morale Roll, it recovers a step of readiness.  A unit 
that attempts to Rally on Segment 12 also gets a post-Segment 12 rally 
attempt (and, if both Morale Rolls are successful, it may go from Scattered 
to Fully Ready). 
 
Regroup 
 
   With the GM's permission, two or more units who have suffered severe 
casualties (below) may regroup into a single unit.  The new unit's Unit 
Size Modifier is recalculated, and if the casualties are at the same state 
of readiness then the retain that level.  If the units are at different 
states of readiness, the compare the sizes of the two units; if one is at 
least twice as large as the other, then the readiness of the larger unit is 
used.  Otherwise attempt a Morale Roll for the less-ready unit; if it's 
successful, then use the greater readiness.  If that Morale Roll fails, use 
the less-ready unit's state of readiness, unless that one is Scattered and 
the other is Fully Ready, in which case the new unit is only Disrupted. 
   When two units Regroup into one, the new unit may also Rally if it needs 
to.  Thus, a Scattered unit may regroup with a Disrupted one, and if both 
Morale Rolls succeed, the new unit may be Fully Ready! 
 
   Characters 
 
   Individual characters, whether operating battle vehicles or leading from 
behind the lines, can affect mass combat in four ways: they can lead units 
in combat, they can inspire loyalty in friendly units in combat, they can 
inspire fear in enemy units, or they can attack the enemy directly.  (Of 
course, for all but the last, the character must have a means of 
communicating vehicle to vehicle.  This is not a problem in most campaigns, 
but it is an occasionally forgotten element.) 
   These rules tend to make the battle revolve around important individuals 
and the units under their direct command.  A small elite unit, stiffened by 
one or more PCs, can literally turn the tide of an important battle.  Of 
course, if the GM uses these rules, he should give the enemy certain NPC 
leaders who can themselves affect battles.  Often, the climax of the battle 
will occur when these units (or even their commanders, individually) meet 
in the middle of the battlefield. 
 
Leadership 
 
   A character should have the skill Tactics to lead a unit in battle. 
Each time a unit takes its action, the leader may attempt his Tactics Roll. 
 If the Roll succeeds, the unit may add +1 OCV, +1 DCV, or +1 Morale Roll 
for that Phase.  Additionally, for every 2 points the leader makes his 
Tactics Roll by (rounded up), the unit may add an additional +1 OCV, +1 
DCV, or +1 Morale Roll for that Phase.  These bonuses act like levels and 
must be distributed by the leader when he makes his Roll. 
 
Inspiration 
 
   A skilled orator can try to rally troops with a speech.  Just before a 
unit has to take a Morale Roll, the character may attempt to inspire the 
troops.  For every 2 points the character makes his Oratory Roll by, the 
unit may add +1 to its Morale Roll. 
   A character may also inspire a unit with a great deed.  Sometimes this 
is a single attack against an enemy that shows how vulnerable the enemy is. 
 Roll a single attack from the character against an individual enemy 
trooper. If the enemy trooper is impaired, the unit gets +1 to its Morale 
Roll.  If the enemy trooper is disabled, the unit gets +2 to its Morale 
Roll.  If the enemy is killed outright, the unit gets +3 to its Morale 
Roll.  The GM may also give similar bonuses for other amazing feats of 
combat prowess or the exhibition of unusual and powerful abilities (such as 
superpowers, psychic abilities, or magic). 
 
Fear 
 
   A powerful character can also inspire fear in an enemy unit (though this 
is harder than inspiring loyalty in friendly units).  To inspire fear, the 
attacker(s) should make a PRE attack with all the normal modifiers.  In 
addition, both the attacker's PRE and the defender's PRE are modified by 
the Unit Size Modifiers. 
 
Direct Combat 
 
   An individual character or vehicle can also participate in mass combat 
by attacking enemy units directly.  The character moves and attacks on his 
own Phases (but is still affected by the Scale Modifier).  The character 
simply makes whatever type of attack he likes against the enemy unit, with 
his OCV vs their DCV.  If the attack is a hit, roll the BODY damage of the 
character's attack, subtract the enemy's DEF, and compare the result to the 
enemy unit's modified BODY value.  If the attack is large enough, the enemy 
unit may have to make a Morale Roll. 
   Personal attacks by characters are most effective if the character or 
vehicle is much more powerful than the individual troops that he is 
fighting.  For example, a small wing of a dozen Mosquito Hawk helicopters 
has to be hit by an attack of 19 BODY (taking the copters' DEF into 
account) before the unit is forced to even attempt a Morale Roll. 
Nonetheless, some characters or creatures are so powerful that they are 
more effective attacking alone than leading or inspiring a unit. 
   By the same token, however, an individual character fighting against a 
unit takes straight BODY damage to his vehicle (and/or to himself).  The 
BODY damage is still calculated by an attacking unit as it normally would 
be for mass combat, but applied to the character as in normal tactical combat. 
 
   Casualties 
 
   A unit that is in a battle will take casualties.  Casualties should be 
calculated every time a new situation takes place.  The Casualty Occurrence 
Table below tells what percentage of a unit that can be considered casualties. 
 
Casualty Occurrence Table 
Occurrence                    Casualties 
Entering Combat               1% 
Forced to make a Morale Roll  5% 
Being Disrupted               10% 
Being Scattered               20% 
Being Routed                  100% 
 
   It's important to note that not all "casualties" (in this specific 
context) are dead; casualties include those killed in action, those that 
were wounded, those whose vehicles were disabled but who were not 
themselves hurt, those captured by the enemy, and those missing in action 
(this last category can include everything from deserters to would-be 
heroes who retreated on their own to regroup and return later to rescue 
captured comrades).  Since the existing rules cover things like death, 
injury, and serious damage, any casualties that aren't already covered by 
these categories can be considered MIA. 
   Any time that a unit's size is changed by death, injury, damage, and 
desertion, its Unit Size Modifier (and other elements based on its size) 
should be recalculated to reflect its new size. 
 
PC Casualties 
   If a PC loses a tactical combat in the midst of a mass battle, many 
things can happen.  The character can be killed outright, though this 
should only happen if the character is killed by an attack in the tactical 
combat or by similar normal methods.  The character can be captured by the 
enemy for ransom, recruiting, or slavery.  The character's vehicle can be 
disabled, with the character himself inside (either safe or injured); he 
can awaken later on a battlefield amidst the dead and dying, among the 
wreckage of his comrades' craft.  Or, the character can be rescued by 
others in his unit or on his side.   
   Which option takes place should generally depend on the dynamics of the 
situation.  Do not assume that a character's story is over, just because he 
has been defeated; for many characters, their story is just beginning. 
 
   Adding Rules 
 
   Because these rules are intended primarily as an adjunct to a 
role-playing game (and secondarily as a combat system for the Special 
Campaign Setting in Appendix E), they have been intentionally kept simple. 
GMs who want to add some of the other rules in this section to reflect the 
myriad aspects of mass warfare should feel free to do so.  (After all, the 
rules as presented here represent a serious alteration of the original Mass 
Combat rules.)  The more important a mass combat is to the current story, 
the more flavorful and interesting it should be. 
 
   Role-Playing Battles 
 
   Even in the height of battle, the GM should not ignore role-playing. 
The characters should still be in character  honorable "space knights" who 
would never plot an ambush, for instance, or freedom fighters out to kill 
every alien invader they come across.  Similarly, the NPC opponents should 
not be simply faceless generals; instead, they should have personalities 
and hopefully some recognizable tactics.  For example, a computer in charge 
of a Machine Empire might be willing to throw his fighting drones away by 
the millions, but be unwilling to lose even a single one of his Warstar 
battle cruisers.  Using such quirks can give the characters important 
opportunities to influence the battle in their favor. 
   Lastly, the GM should remember that this is a battle!  He should feel 
free to stop the overall action for a moment, in order to run an individual 
combat for a PC.  So General Yates wants his tank battalion to hold the 
line?  The GM should make him face three enemy tanks himself.  If he wins, 
his troops rally around him; if he loses, his position is overrun! 
Similarly, if an orator wants to stand outside his vehicle to address his 
troops (for dramatic effect), he'll be a logical target for enemy missiles. 
 Although the GM should never randomly kill off a PC (in these or any other 
circumstances), a battlefield is a dangerous place, and it's not unlikely 
that some characters will get hurt. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Revised Mass Combat Rules (Quite Long) 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 20:11:56 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I like the "faceless masses" rules. 
 
The rules look pretty cool, but I'd like to see a few specific examples 
of mass combat in the text. 
 
Human foot army versus equal number of aliens in tanks 
A few robot planes against a mid-sized group of eagle-riding wizards. 
Hordes of Space Marines against a few super giant bugs. 
 
And what happens when the troop types are mixed? Can I have 10 units of 
archers, mages, and werewolves, or do the groups always have to be 
homogenous? 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 19:04:48 -0800 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org> 
On Monday, November 10, 1997 9:13 AM, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
 
 
>At 04:48 PM 11/9/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>>On Sunday, November 09, 1997 9:57 AM, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>>>Well, that seems patently untrue... 
><snip my explanation, which was either very poor, or taken out of 
context> 
>> 
>>Uh, that's what I said. They are larger (not necessarilly taller), 
and 
>>that is why they are harder to hit. If they aren't taller, they 
should 
>>get wider to make up the difference and to make them easier targets. 
>> 
>Okay.  Yes, they are larger.  But the book only states that they gain 
height 
>and width (depth is assumed).  If you negate the height, as the book 
says 
>you may, you don't necessarily give them *even more* width (and 
depth).  The 
>book doesn't say you do, it is *your* interpretation.  There, that's 
what I 
>was *trying* to say, I think. 
 
 
True. They don't have to get wider, but that is certainly a valid 
special effect. In my campaign, that would probably be default. In 
order to gain the same mass without increasing density, they would 
have to get wider. Furthermore, in order to gain the same surface 
area, so as to maintain the same target size, they would have to get 
even wider yet. This would, of course, lower their density, thereby 
simulating obesity even better. (Hmm.) 
 
>>Yes, exactly. If a man is twice the volume by using growth, his 
height 
>>goes up by the cube root of 2, his width goes up by the cube root of 
>>2, and his depth goes up by the cube root of 2. 
>> 
>>However, if he doesn't have the increase in height, then he 
increases 
>>in width and depth so that he grows the same amount (measured by 
>>volume) as he would if he had gotten taller. Thus, his height 
remains 
>>the same, his width goes up by the _square_ root of 2, and his 
height 
>>goes up by the square root of 2. 
>> 
>Again, by your interpretation.  Which is not unreasonable, but *is* 
an 
>interpretation. 
 
True. This is what I would consider a base SFX, but not a required 
one. 
 
>>>But if they only double in volume (as Growth seems to state) and 
they 
>>double 
>>>in mass (as Growth *does* state), then they are, at best, the 
*same* 
>>density 
>>>as a normal man.  Not less. 
>> 
>>Yes, _in game mechanics_. However, in real life, they are less 
dense. 
>>As the original suggestion would have made them _twice_ as dense as 
>>normal, and in fact they are less dense, then I thought that growth 
>>was a reasonable compromise. 
>> 
>Replacing something wrong with something wrong is a "reasonable 
compromise?" 
>I can see that you are trying to move in the correct direction, 
but... 
>I still don't think that "Density Increase" needs to have the SFX 
"Increases 
>in Density."  It could simply cause an increase in weight, and have 
SFX of 
>"Fat." 
 
Except that Density Increase makes a person too heavy to swim, and 
doesn't make it difficult to fit into small spaces, through small 
holes, or into special gear, all of which could be a significant 
problem to an obese person. 
 
>>I think you may have misunderstood the idea. I wasn't clear as to 
what 
>>was 'real world' and what was 'game mechanic'. The growth gives you 
>>people with exactly the same density as normal people; people who 
are 
>>obese are less dense. Growth isn't necessarily perfect, but Density 
>>Increase is certainly no better. 
>> 
>The idea (from my understanding) was that you disagreed with DI due 
to the 
>"real world."  Then you gave a different interpretation, which still 
didn't 
>agree with the "real world."  I was trying to hash out the 
differences 
>between the two game mechanic terms, as compared to the "real world" 
>actuality of it, and determine if SFX could also make up for the 
differences. 
 
True. However, Density Increase, by default, does not increase size, 
and does increase density. Growth, also by default, does increase 
size, and does not increase density. Using the defaults, I still 
contend that Growth fits better. 
 
>>Frankly, I'd just give them Phys Lim: Morbid Obesity. 
>> 
>Which I'd (also frankly) rather not do.  Phys. Lims. are ill-defined, 
and it 
>still wouldn't reflect the fact that they would be harder to move 
(Knockback 
>Resistance), possibly stronger (to lift their own weight), etc. 
 
As a person who has morbid obesity, and who knows people who have 
morbid obesity, I know that obese persons are not normally much 
stronger than their thin counterparts. In fact, I'd say they tend to 
be less strong, due to lack of exercise. Any increase in strength is 
almost entirely in the lower back and legs, and is counteracted by the 
increase in weight. 
 
True story. In a college weight lifting class, I was doing leg presses 
in sets of ten (sitting down, feet against machine plate, push.) The 
woman next to me asked how much weight I was using, and I replied, 
"260". She answered, "You are not!" I replied, "How do you think I 
stand up?" 
 
If she had been bench pressing freeweights rather than on a machine, 
the falling bar would probably have crushed her. Don't ever laugh when 
holding heavy weights over yourself.:) 
 
>Just as a 
>child should buy Shrinking, 0 END, Persitant, Always On, an obese 
person 
>should probably buy either DI or Growth with those same Lims/Advs. 
They 
>could *also* get a Phys Lim or DF or both as well... 
 
 
Well, if you bought Growth, with the SFX that your height was 
unchanged and your width and depth increased proportionally to allow 
for the same target area, you would fit obesity just about perfectly. 
However, DI would fit less well, as you would then have to explain the 
ability to float in water and the inability to fit into small spaces, 
etc. 
 
So Growth doesn't require any limitations or unusual SFX to work, but 
DI does. I'll stick with Growth, myself. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Acronyms 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 19:24:34 -0800 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Monday, November 10, 1997 12:27 PM, Jeff Hebert wrote: 
 
> 
>Sorry, I slipped into Irrelevant Man mode for a moment there ... 
 
Don't be irrelevant. Irrelevance never forget. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 20:07:55 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Reply-To: NoSpam:rook@infinex.com 
CC: hero-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Voodoo 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I play a character named Voodoo Fever on a PBeM that' on the web. 
 
the address to it is: 
http://members.tripod.com/~Wirchler/index.html 
The GM said the first set of tuens would be up last Friday, so I'd give 
him another week to get to it. :) 
 
The character's herself's stats are on my champions site at 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
Unfortunatly there's no story there yet and I have to fix a 
miscalculation I made on my VPP's 
skill roll. :) 
 
    As for doing Voodoo, I use the advice from Ult. Super Mage plus what 
I've learned from my sister's 
boyfriend who's a Santero. 
 
 
The Ineffable Guy Hoyle wrote: 
 
> Hey all, 
> 
> Does anybody have any thoughts on portraying voudoun (aka voodoo) in 
> Hero terms? The writeup in Horror Hero isn't very complete.  This is 
> for a character in my new Pulp Campaign, TALES OF THE ODYSSEUS 
> LEAGUE, which ran for the first time this past Saturday night. 
> 
> Guy 
> ---------------------------------- 
> Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com) 
> http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/ 
> Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf 
> and the PANGAEA Project! 
 
 
 
-- 
Rook 
***In my FROM: address, "NoSpam:" is a SPAM filter.  To send me mail, 
***just use rook@infinex.com, thanks. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:32:41 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Revised Mass Combat Rules (Quite Long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
I've just given those rules a quick first read, and they certainly look 
promising. I'll second the praise for the "faceless masses" rules. Also, 
seeing it in context, I'm now entirely convinced by your interpretation of 
the Morale roll for EGO-less troops, Bob. 
 
I do have a number of suggestions. First of all, you may want to broaden 
the wording of the terrain rules to allow for "terrain" in aerial and even 
space battles. Clouds, asteroid fields, gravity wells, and such can 
certainly have an effect on combat (particularly DCV and movement.)  
 
Vehicles with multiple personnel add a wrinkle to morale which you might 
want to address. It seems to me that the dynamics of being routed are 
rather different for a ship with a commanding officer than they are for 
foot troops; while infantry might run from the battle in panic, such total 
abandonment of purpose would require an outright mutiny on a ship.  
 
The primary question here, I think, is which characters are the basis for 
the morale roll of a ship? For a group of PT boats to stay organized, do 
all the sailors need to keep their heads, or will some steel-nerved 
captains be enough to keep the crews in line? I'm inclined to base the 
roll on the training & experience of the commanding officer. 
 
It seems to me that the Oratory roll used for Inspiration might be 
adjusted on some occasions according to the medium of communication. It 
should be tougher to make an inspirational speech over an audio 
communications link, or even on a small video screen, than it would be in 
the physical presence of one's audience. The time to inspire those X-Wing 
pilots is *before* the battle, before they even enter their fighters, 
unless you're a disembodied Jedi who can get into someone's head. 
 
Finally, on first reading the casualties chart seemed a bit like a 
potentially confusing holdover from the FH system. I can see why it's been 
included, as it does allow for living casualties, but the dead and wounded 
have already been dealt with (nicely) in this system, and this mechanic 
seems a little redundant.  
 
Speaking of those surviving casualties, yet another complication of 
vehicles just hit me - it seems like fighters dependent on carriers are 
going to suffer more heavily for being MIA than foot troops might. I don't 
know if this needs any special mechanic in the system, but it is worth 
noting that those MIA sub-light space fighters won't be coming back if 
their FTL mothership gives up on them.  
 
All things considered, this set of rules seems to cover a very wide range 
of situations fairly nicely. There are bound to be some problems in a 
system which tries to cover everything from tank battles to space 
dogfights, but this seems to establish some basics which might be further 
developed by some nice genre- and situation-specific rules. 
 
 
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 00:30:13 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Re: RE: Density Decrease 
X-VMS-To: IN%"Champ-l@omg.org" 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
So, if I want a character to weigh half as much and be the same size, 
I should... 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:17:22 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Dear ChampionPersons 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Robert A. West wrote: 
>Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>> Where's Microscopic Vision? 
> 
>Page 66. 
> 
!!! 
I'm a moron. 
Would you believe that I've been playing this game for 5 years, and never 
saw that?  (Not that I've needed it...) 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 00:21:20 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Revised Mass Combat Rules (Quite Long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
> Human foot army versus equal number of aliens in tanks 
> A few robot planes against a mid-sized group of eagle-riding wizards. 
> Hordes of Space Marines against a few super giant bugs. 
 
 
	Or, more accurately, a few space marines against a greater number 
of bugs. 
 
	Or, what I'd like to see, hordes of federation starships against a 
single Borg cube. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 00:32:43 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> an 
> >interpretation. 
> 
> True. This is what I would consider a base SFX, but not a required 
> one. 
 
	Hold up.  Look around.  Yes, that's right, you're in the Champions 
mailing list -- and Champions does not have default SFX. 
 
> Except that Density Increase makes a person too heavy to swim, and 
> doesn't make it difficult to fit into small spaces, through small 
> holes, or into special gear, all of which could be a significant 
> problem to an obese person. 
 
	Eh?  Density Increase doesn't necessarily make it more difficult 
to swim -- that's one SFX. 
 
> True. However, Density Increase, by default, does not increase size, 
> and does increase density. Growth, also by default, does increase 
> size, and does not increase density. Using the defaults, I still 
> contend that Growth fits better. 
 
	Nope.  DI increases Mass, not density.  The name is a bit of a 
misnomer, but power names don't mean a whole lot in Champs.  An Energy 
Blast does not have to be a blast of energy, remember. 
 
> So Growth doesn't require any limitations or unusual SFX to work, but 
> DI does. I'll stick with Growth, myself. 
 
 
	I'd say they both do.  It's a rather unique set of 
characteristics.  Either can simulate, but the description of DI seems to 
fit much better. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann) 
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 03:58:05 -0800 
Organization: Terminal BBS  (403)327-9731 
Subject: Star Armor was (Re: Shields and Armor...) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 -=> Quoting Trevor Barrie to Mike Lehmann <=- 
 
 TB> It seems to me that this is just an unusual case of a problem which has 
 TB> occurred to me before... a Focus which is Obvious when used, but 
 TB> Inobvious otherwise. 
 
Just a comment: I use a house rule that allows an Obvious Foci that can  
be hidden (such as a derringer, cane sword, etc.) to be Concealed, which  
is -1/4 less of a disad (OAF -3/4, OIF -1/4). This uses the Concealment  
skill at a default of 11-, or equal to the character's Concealment skill  
(whichever is superior). It is still Obvious when used. 
 
mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net - - - - - Justice Krewe / Enigma Watch GM 
- - - - - -  http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html - - - - - - 
 
... Bo knows your girlfriend. 
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR] 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Internet: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net  <<<<<<<<<<< 
The TERMINAL BBS                                            Fidonet; 1:358/17 
Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada                                          1:358/18 
This message was processed by NetXpres                          (403)327-9741 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 05:41:28 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Revised Mass Combat Rules (Quite Long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:11 PM 11/10/97 -0500, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>I like the "faceless masses" rules. 
> 
>The rules look pretty cool, but I'd like to see a few specific examples 
>of mass combat in the text. 
> 
>Human foot army versus equal number of aliens in tanks 
>A few robot planes against a mid-sized group of eagle-riding wizards. 
>Hordes of Space Marines against a few super giant bugs. 
 
   OK, I'll make at least a mention of those. 
 
>And what happens when the troop types are mixed? Can I have 10 units of 
>archers, mages, and werewolves, or do the groups always have to be 
>homogenous? 
 
   Individual groups will have to be homogenous, but can differ from each 
other.  (I'll make sure that's mentioned in the text.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:19:20 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:06 AM 11/12/97 +1000, Michael Jones wrote: 
<snipped Filksinger's comments on Growth v. Density Increase to simulate 
obesity> 
> 
>how does this relate to resistant defences? 
> 
Well, Michael, it doesn't, much.  Except that I had brought up obesity as a 
SFX of Density Increase that wouldn't give resistant defenses...  however, 
it has *everything* to do with the listed topic of the thread, Density 
Increase.  <grin> 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:22:08 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:12 AM 11/12/97 +1000, Michael Jones wrote: 
<snip mine and Filksinger's discussion on simulating obesity w/ Growth> 
> 
>i have one word for you gentlemen- reach?  
> 
Reach...  which isn't increased by one level of Growth, which is what we 
were discussing.  You need to purchase 15 points of Growth to get 2x reach, 
and we've only purchased 5.  Even if you insist that we get a multiple of 
the cube root of 2 to our reach, it has no combat effect, and can be 
*easily* ignored. 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:04:45 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Revised Mass Combat Rules (Quite Long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:32 PM 11/10/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>I've just given those rules a quick first read, and they certainly look 
>promising. I'll second the praise for the "faceless masses" rules. Also, 
>seeing it in context, I'm now entirely convinced by your interpretation of 
>the Morale roll for EGO-less troops, Bob. 
 
   Ah, good.   :-] 
 
>I do have a number of suggestions. First of all, you may want to broaden 
>the wording of the terrain rules to allow for "terrain" in aerial and even 
>space battles. Clouds, asteroid fields, gravity wells, and such can 
>certainly have an effect on combat (particularly DCV and movement.)  
 
   Good point.  I'll add at least Clouds and Asteroid Fields; Gravity Wells 
would be just a bit much to try to figure out, at least for me.  
   Does anyone else have any other easy-to-manage 3-D terrain features? 
 
>Vehicles with multiple personnel add a wrinkle to morale which you might 
>want to address. It seems to me that the dynamics of being routed are 
>rather different for a ship with a commanding officer than they are for 
>foot troops; while infantry might run from the battle in panic, such total 
>abandonment of purpose would require an outright mutiny on a ship.  
> 
>The primary question here, I think, is which characters are the basis for 
>the morale roll of a ship? For a group of PT boats to stay organized, do 
>all the sailors need to keep their heads, or will some steel-nerved 
>captains be enough to keep the crews in line? I'm inclined to base the 
>roll on the training & experience of the commanding officer. 
 
   There's a little of each going on there. 
   For one thing, I'm going to add a modifier of half the Unit Size 
Modifier for the size of a ship's crew.  This would give a ship with a crew 
of eight a +3 Modifier to its Morale Roll, which a single-pilot fighter 
doesn't get.  A group of thirty-two ships with crews of eight each would 
thus get a +13 Unit Size Mod, while thirty-two single-pilot fighters only 
get +10.  (If the unit was 256 single-pilot fighers, the Unit Size Mod 
would be +16, but then again it's technically a larger unit than the 
thirty-two crewed ships.) 
   However, the captain's Oratory Skill should be Complementary to the 
Morale Roll; this should at least offset the above difference between 32 
ships with crews of 8, and 256 single-pilot fighters. 
   Also, some captains may lose their nerves of steel, while others may 
simply view it as "the better part of valor."  I think, in some of the text 
I added, there's a mention of troops who retreated with the intent of 
coming back and kicking some enemy butt; I've even seen protagonist ("PC") 
commanders in fiction take this tactic. 
 
>It seems to me that the Oratory roll used for Inspiration might be 
>adjusted on some occasions according to the medium of communication. It 
>should be tougher to make an inspirational speech over an audio 
>communications link, or even on a small video screen, than it would be in 
>the physical presence of one's audience. The time to inspire those X-Wing 
>pilots is *before* the battle, before they even enter their fighters, 
>unless you're a disembodied Jedi who can get into someone's head. 
 
   Good point; I'll address this.  I'm thinking of a -1 penalty to Oratory 
if the speech has to be given by video, or -2 if it's audio only. 
 
>Finally, on first reading the casualties chart seemed a bit like a 
>potentially confusing holdover from the FH system. I can see why it's been 
>included, as it does allow for living casualties, but the dead and wounded 
>have already been dealt with (nicely) in this system, and this mechanic 
>seems a little redundant.  
 
   Another good point.  I'll reword it into an optional rule. 
 
>Speaking of those surviving casualties, yet another complication of 
>vehicles just hit me - it seems like fighters dependent on carriers are 
>going to suffer more heavily for being MIA than foot troops might. I don't 
>know if this needs any special mechanic in the system, but it is worth 
>noting that those MIA sub-light space fighters won't be coming back if 
>their FTL mothership gives up on them.  
 
   This can also be true of aircraft that are dependent on aircraft 
carriers for long-range transportation, as many were during World War II. 
Yes, this issue does need to be addressed. 
 
>All things considered, this set of rules seems to cover a very wide range 
>of situations fairly nicely. There are bound to be some problems in a 
>system which tries to cover everything from tank battles to space 
>dogfights, but this seems to establish some basics which might be further 
>developed by some nice genre- and situation-specific rules. 
 
   And why am I not surprised, Bill, that you had some very salient and 
helpful points to make?   :-] 
   Of course, that's the whole reason I posted it in the first place, and 
even made mention of wanting help with the Mass Combat system when I 
initially asked for help with TUSV.  I know that people have roundly 
criticized the system as it appears in Fantasy Hero Companion, but mass 
combat with vehicles is so common that I wanted to include *something.*  I 
think we'll end up with a pretty good system, though. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Density Decrease 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 11 Nov 1997 10:53:53 -0500 
Lines: 31 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "AAM" == ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> writes: 
 
AAM> So, if I want a character to weigh half as much and be the same size, 
AAM> I should... 
 
Two options: 
 
* It is advantageous to be less dense: buy powers that simulate these 
  advantages, such as Flight or Gliding, and improve defenses or DCV as 
  attacks have a hard time actually finding something to hurt. 
  Desolidification is an extreme form of "density decrease". 
 
* It is disadvantageous to be less dense: it is a Physical Limitation. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:58:21 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Acronyms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>  
> On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>  
 
>  
> Come up with one for "GENOCIDE" and I'll really be impressed.:) 
 
Global Eugenic Normalization Organization for Classification,  
Identification, Detection and Elimination. 
 
You may substitute "Genome" for "Global," but I think that is weaker. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:09:47 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Aura Sight 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>  
>         How would you work a power of Aura Sight (i.e. determines general 
> health, emotional state, and can act like a 'finger print' so even if 
> an individual is disguised, the character with Aura Sight can try 
> to identify him). 
 
Define it as a sense (Aura Sight).  This is in the special sense group  
(unless you have defined a "magical" group as a house rule) and may (or  
may not) take Discriminatory, Targeting, etc.  In fact, I have one  
character who bought this as Spatial Awareness, in which case, I give the  
ability to see the extremely faint auras of non-enchanted inanimate  
objects. 
 
Hero Almanac #1 gives rules for handling this sense, including a list of  
colors.  Basically, it is stopped by ordinary barriers, and the  
discriminatory feature allows one to distinguish emotional states, moral  
conditions and general health, rather than identifying individuals with  
absolute fidelity.  Of course, a person in disguise is apt to have a  
*very* different aura from the person he or she is impersonating, so  
great precision is not required.  On the other hand, distinguishing two  
Lesser Vampires may require the confirmation of other senses. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:16:39 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Bloody Nasty Powers 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>  
> Two odd powers: 
>         The power to make someone spontaneously bleed. 
 
This one is easy: BODY Drain.  By special effect, it does not affect  
anyone who cannot bleed, and will become a continuing attack on  
hemophiliacs.  If either (or both) of these conditions is unusually  
common in your campaign, you may wish to impose a limitation and/or and  
advantage, as appropriate. 
 
>  
>         The power to produce cardiopulmonary palpitations. 
 
This sounds like either an EB AVLD or an EB NND.  Defenses to the NND  
might include not having a circulatory system, having a pacemaker,  
hardened Power Defense, or Life Support: Does not Age. 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:19:35 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Dear ChampionPersons 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>  
 
> Where's Microscopic Vision? 
 
Page 66. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:25:17 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Defenses 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>  
> On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>  
> >       Physical Defense, Energy Defense, Mental Defense, Power Defense. 
> > Are there any other types of defense? 
> [snip] 
> >       A few strings back, Presence Defense was discussed. 
> > 
>  
> Presence Defense was introduced back before the 4th edition hardcover 
> rulebook, in Champions 2. It cost 1 point for 2 points of PRE Defense, 
> which was added to your PRE when calculating the effect of Presence 
> Attqacsk made against you. Nowadays, the acceptable practice (which does 
> almost exactly the same thing for the same cost) is to build Presence 
> Defense as PRE with a -1 Limitation, "Only for Defense." 
>  
> Also, you forgot Flash Defense. There are various schools of thought 
> whether Flash Defense should protect all one's senses (that is, work 
> against Flash vs. Sight, Flash vs. Hearing, Flash vs. Smell, etc.) My 
> answer: of course not - your sunglasses aren't going to do a thing to save 
> you from that deafening boom, and I wouldn't allow a Limitation "Only 
> against Flash vs. Sight". 
 
This is very explicitly covered in 4ed rules: 
 
	Flash Defense Cost: 1 Character Point for every 1 point of 
		Flash Defense to protect a single Sense Group. 
					   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
 
The narrative under "Flash Defense" also explicitly states that Flash  
Defense covers one sense group and that it may be bought multiple times  
to cover multiple sense groups. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:47:55 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Dear ChampionPersons 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
> Robert A. West wrote: 
> >Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
> >> Where's Microscopic Vision? 
> > 
> >Page 66. 
> > 
> !!! 
> I'm a moron. 
> Would you believe that I've been playing this game for 5 years, and never 
> saw that?  (Not that I've needed it...) 
>  
 
Maybe the print was too small for you... 
 
8-<)> 
 
 
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:16:51 -0800 
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger) 
Subject: Re: Voodoo 
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
     Guy wrote: 
      
     Does anybody have any thoughts on portraying voudoun (aka voodoo) in  
     Hero terms? The writeup in Horror Hero isn't very complete.  This is  
     for a character in my new Pulp Campaign, TALES OF THE ODYSSEUS LEAGUE,  
     which ran for the first time this past Saturday night. 
     ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
      
     You can always check out Gurps Voodoo. I know it isn't the same thing,  
     but Gurps books have helped me write up stuff for Hero in the past. 
      
     Richard 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Voodoo 
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:46:17 -0800 (PST) 
Cc: hero-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
>      Guy wrote: 
>       
>      Does anybody have any thoughts on portraying voudoun (aka voodoo) in  
>      Hero terms? The writeup in Horror Hero isn't very complete.  This is  
>      for a character in my new Pulp Campaign, TALES OF THE ODYSSEUS LEAGUE,  
>      which ran for the first time this past Saturday night. 
>      ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>       
>      You can always check out Gurps Voodoo. I know it isn't the same thing,  
>      but Gurps books have helped me write up stuff for Hero in the past. 
>       
>      Richard 
>  
	I'll second that nomination. I found it a very useful resource for 
understanding more of what my Voodoo PC could do. 
 
 
Rook   --- Incoherent Thinking Specialist 
Also known as Arcady on #herochat, #Fuzionchat, #gurps, #V&V, 
and #SuperHeroChat in DALnet IRC 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:06:58 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
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At 07:04 PM 11/10/97 -0800, you wrote: 
>True. They don't have to get wider, but that is certainly a valid 
>special effect. In my campaign, that would probably be default. In 
>order to gain the same mass without increasing density, they would 
>have to get wider. Furthermore, in order to gain the same surface 
>area, so as to maintain the same target size, they would have to get 
>even wider yet. This would, of course, lower their density, thereby 
>simulating obesity even better. (Hmm.) 
> 
 
no, not betteer, just differently. . . 
 
 
> 
>True. However, Density Increase, by default, does not increase size, 
>and does increase density. Growth, also by default, does increase 
>size, and does not increase density. Using the defaults, I still 
>contend that Growth fits better. 
> 
 
how does this relate to resistant defences? 
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:12:40 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
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At 10:47 PM 11/10/97 +0500, you wrote: 
>>Well, if you bought Growth, with the SFX that your height was 
>>unchanged and your width and depth increased proportionally... 
><snip> 
>>So Growth doesn't require any limitations or unusual SFX to work... 
>These two ideas seem to be mutually exclusive...  and DI doesn't need any 
>Limitations, just maybe an extra Disadvantage, which you could (probably) 
>get w/ Growth, as well. 
> 
>>I'll stick with Growth, myself. 
>> 
>And I may just switch over, myself. 
>Thanks for putting up with me this long, Filk. 
> 
> 
 
i have one word for you gentlemen- reach?  
- Jerry 
> 
> 
 
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:38:25 -0800 
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger) 
Subject: Spirit rules... 
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part 
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     I'm planning a present-day paranormal investigations campaign, but I'm  
     not sure about the Spirit rules.  
      
     Some of the opposition will be ghosts and demons. Are the exorcism  
     rules as presented in Horror Hero and the Almanac a good way to get  
     rid of these bad guys? Are the Shift Spirit powers priced equal to  
     what they are worth, or are they overpriced (as they seem)? 
      
     Any comments? 
      
     Richard 
 
From: "potroast@theoven" <darkwraith@worldnet.att.net> 
Subject: Re: Aura Sight 
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:02:51 -0600 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
---------- 
> From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
> To: champ-l@omg.org 
> Subject: Re: Aura Sight 
> Date: Friday, November 07, 1997 12:55 AM 
>  
> At 07:59 AM 11/7/97 -0800, Rook wrote: 
> >Look to Horror Hero page 43. 
> > 
> >ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
> > 
> >>         How would you work a power of Aura Sight (i.e. determines 
general 
> >> health, emotional state, and can act like a 'finger print' so even if 
> >> an individual is disguised, the character with Aura Sight can try 
> >> to identify him). 
> > 
> Um, Rook, I don't have Horror Hero.  I realize you may have wanted to 
avoid 
> putting published material on here, but could you at least gimme a hint? 
> Thanks. 
> Personally, I'd be willing to say Mental Awareness and a loopy Detect. 
>  
> - Jerry 
how about aura sight discrimatory? 
 
X-Sender: avatar@pop-gw.homeshopping.com.br 
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:43:03 -0200 
From: "Rafael Sant'Anna Meyer" <avatar@br.homeshopping.com.br> 
Subject: Tangent PbeM 
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	Hi, 
 
	I am open a Tangent PBEM (or PBPOWWOW or ICQ if everybody have this 
programs). 
 
	A brief information about the Universe for who didn't read the comics.  
 
	At Cuban Missiles crisis in  60's the Pres Kennidy made a big mistake:send 
some nukes to blow out Fidel's Reds and show how the America act in a crisis. 
 
	At this moment a hero appear:the 1st Atom. He tried stop that Nuclear 
insanity but he there was to many nukes. After this incident the southest 
state of US is Georgia. Where was Florida now is a strange part of the 
ocean full of mutant lifeforms called Sea Devils (mutated anthropormophic 
fishes).  
 
	At the 60's the US govern created the ultimate democracy platoon to clean 
all kind of communist menace at any democratic nation, the Steel men. They 
fought at Praga's Spring and won. Their sucess was big enought to elect a 
Steel man for president. 
 
	Behind the scenes there are a secret society called Nightwing. Created by 
Vandal Savage at 1700's the Nightwing control all America by Sorcery (White 
or Black),blackmails or by making some dirty works. After the American 
Idependence they split in 2 branchs. The American was a agent of the world 
change and the European (Meridian) fought against the monarchy fall. Now 
the Nightwing is the most secret federal agency. Even the President don't 
know about them. They have security clearance level 4. And their leaders 
have security clearance level Alpha. 
 
	Now it 1997 and this is the World Situation: 
 
	-The Atom I grandson made his debut The atom III is the hero#1 of america. 
The third generation of the Heroes is a kind of hero who nobody can doubt 
of his loyalty. 
 
	-Lia "The Flash" Nelson is starring the newest holo with Amazing Special 
effects technology developted by herself. This 16 y.o. is the most hunted 
celebrity of America.  
 
	-The chaosbringer Joker is the one-woman revolution. Some more fanatical 
followers of her filosophy (the  life is a big joke and the world how we 
know is the worst gag of the reality) is growing among the College 
students. Her terrorism acts always is followed of a maniacal laught. She 
fight the sistem with pratical Jokes and using media. 
 
	-Some persons told about how the world will be destroyed. They 
self-proclaimed came from the future. The press call them Doom Patrol. The 
1st prophecy happened. A soviet space shuttle was destroyed before its take 
off. 
 
	 
	The role of characters: 
 
	The characters must be a Tangent version of a DC Universe character. The 
forbidden heros (or villains) are:Lex Luthor,Batman,Superman,Aquaman,Green 
LAntern,Wildcat, and all cited above. 
	 
	They'll be members of Nightwing organization. 
 
	Data about the campgain: 
 
	-Base 150 + 150 from disads. 
	-No VPPs. 
	-No Alien origns. 
	-The tecnology is 10 years more advanced than ours. Think a Cyberpunk 
(without to many implants) theme with Supers and other freaks. 
	-Shapeshifters,Spellcasters,Assassins 
	-NO CASUAL KILLER or TRIGGERHAPPY! 
 
	Normal Technology cost no point. Implants are a -1/2 limitation.  
 
	Power Armor is a -1 Limitation and gain 1 level of Density Increase per 10 
active points. (New Power for Power Armors:Density Decrease - cost 15 
points per level. Halves the weight per level).  
 
	Netrunners are accept. 
 
	Packages accepts: 
 
	Wizards (from FH) 
	Any military 
	Any from Cyberhero 
 
	Nightwing package (obrigatory) (0 Points) 
	Nightwing membership 
	Federal Police Powers 
	FAM:Light Weapons 	 
	+1 OCV a kind of weapon 
	FAM:a kind of area of action (magic,dirty operations or Nightwing secrets) 
	Choice 3:Bribing,Bureaucratics,Combat Driving / Piloting , Conversation, 
Deduction, Shadowing, Streetwise, KS:Magic,Shapeshift control or Criminology) 
 
	Disads: 
	Watched by Nightwing 11- 
	Secret Nightwing operations (11-) 
	Reputation  
	DF:Nightwing 
	Hunted by Meridian,11- 
 
 
	More details e-mail me. 
 
	2 Slots only. 
 
	Who sent me some concept or e-mail about please send again. 
Eletric Avatar 
avatar@br.homeshopping.com.br 
eletric_avatar@hotmail.com 
UIN:3291380 
 
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:43:18 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Dominion 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Well, I finished my latest batch of adaptions.  I wrote up a couple 
ofcharacters from Masamune Shirow's _Dominion_ (Leona, Bonaparte, Anna & 
Uni and Greenpeace Crolis).  I'll be posting these to the list.  I also 
wrote about 6 pages of notes on the universe, Newport City, the bacterial 
cloud nad other characters in the series.  I won't be posting that (unless 
there is some sort of overwhelming demand or something), instead, you can 
find that material on my web page. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:46:32 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: CHAR: Leona Ozaki 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
LEONA OZAKI 
 
Designers Notes: 
Leona is the main character (aside from Bonaparte the mini-tank) of 
Masamune Shirow's _Dominion_.  A former motorcycle police officer from 
Osaka, she was transferred to the Newport City Tank Police early in her 
career.  After some initial difficulties (involving Captain Brenten's 
tank), she settled in as a dedicated and loyal officer of the 'Glorious 
Tank Police'.  Yeah... right...  Anyway, she ends up with her own  patrol 
tank (which she names 'Bonaparte'), and uses that to pursue such notorious 
criminals and Buaku and the Puma Sisters. 
 
Description: 
Leona is rather short, standing about 5'5" or so, with a slight , but 
strong build.  She has brown eyes and dark brown hair (in the original 
_Dominion_ anime, her hair is red).  She normally dresses in Tank Police 
fatigues.  
 
Powers Notes: 
Leona normally carries the standard issue Tank Police gear; armored 
jacket, pistol, SMG, handcuffs, nightstick, radio, light...  In addition, 
she has a fair amount of hand-to-hand combat training (she belongs to 
something called the 'Sword League') and has demonstrated reasonable 
proficiency with firearms.  Naturally, she is an excellent tank driver and 
skilled gunner.  The rest of her skills relate to her police work. 
 
Disadvantages Notes: 
To put it simply... Leona is a nut.  Well... in the first few versions of 
_Dominion_ anyway.  She shows criminals *no* mercy, and no measure is to 
extreme when bringing them in (she seems to be a big believer in "the end 
justifies the means").  In addition, she is hot-headed and impulsive, with 
a noted short temper (and tendency to smash things if irritated).  She 
also loves her tank (to the point where people wonder about her) and is 
known to get violent if Bonaparte is scratched or dented. Finally, Leona 
is pretty quick on the trigger, and is more than willing to use excessive 
firepower to resolve any problems.  Naturally, Leona's has quite a 
reputation based on these Psych Lims.  Finally, Leona has repeated run-ins 
with her commanding officer (Captain Brenten), over such things as tactics 
and tanks. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		13		3 
Dex		15		15 
Con		15		10 
Body		10		2 
Int		15		5 
Ego		13		6 
Pre		20		10 
Com		12		1 
PD		5		2 
ED		4		1 
Spd		3		5 
Rec		6		0 
End		30		0 
Stun		25		0 
Char Total			60 
Power Total			92 
Total Cost			152 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
	Martial Arts: Nightstick fighting, use Art with clubs (only) 
4	Block  +2 OCV  +2 DCV  Block, Abort 
4	Disarm  -1 OCV  +1 DCV  28 STR Disarm 
5	Hammer Stroke  -2 OCV  +1 DCV  6 1/2d6 strike 
4	Joint Lock/Throw  +1 OCV  +0 DCV  Grab one limb, 2d6 NND (1); 
	Target falls 
4	Snap  +0 OCV  +2 DCV  4 1/2d6 strike 
 
2	AK: New Port City 11- 
3	Bureaucratics 13- 
3	Combat Driving: Motorcycle 12- 
7	Combat Driving: Tank 14- 
3	Demolitions 11- 
3	Interrogation 13- 
2	KS: Criminal Law & Procedure 11- 
5	KS: Tanks 14- 
3	Mechanics (tank) 11- 
2	PS: Police Officer 11- 
3	Stealth 12- 
3	Streetwise 13- 
3	Tactics 12-  
4	WF: Nightstick/Tonfa, Small Arms, Vehicle Mounted Weapons 
2	Perk: Local Police Powers 
2	Perk: Weapon Permit 
6	CSL: +2 with 75mm main gun 
10	CSL: +2 with Firearms 
5	CSL: +1 with HTH 
 
Disadvantages 
75	Base 
5	DF: Tank Cop 
3	Package Bonus (Tank Cop) 
15	Psych: Despises Criminals 
10	(15) Psych: Hot-headed and impulsive 
0	(15) Psych: Loves Bonaparte (her tank) 
0	(15) Psych: Triggerhappy 
20	Rep: Triggerhappy member of the Tank Police 14- (ext) 
10	Rivalry: Capt. Brenten (prof, superior) 
10	Watched: Tank Police, Subjcet to Orders (MoPow, NCI)J11- 
4	Crazy Tank-Girl Bonus 
 
(Leona Ozaki created by Masamune Shirow, character sheet created by 
Michael Surbrook) 
 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:52:45 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: CHAR: Bonaparte 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
BONAPARTE 
 
Designers Notes: 
Bonaparte is Leona's mini police tank.  In the _Dominion_ anime it is 
constructed from the remains of Captain Brenten's all-steel patrol tank, 
while in the _Dominion_ manga and _Crusher Police Dominion_ Leona just has 
it.  In _Dominion: Conflict 1_, the Tank Police *all* use tanks like 
Bonaparte (and Leona's is called Napoleon). 
 
Description: 
Bonaparte is a tiny little tank about the size of a station wagon.  It has 
a blocky, rectangular lower body, and a large, spherical front turret.  At 
the back of the tank  is a secondary turret containing a vulcan machine 
gun.  Between the two turrets is a set of manipulator arms, smoke 
launchers, air intakes, light bar, siren, etc.  The tank has four sets of 
tracks, two in the rear and two in the front.  The lower half of the tank 
is gray, while the two turrets and upper body is white. 
 
Powers Notes: 
The write-up given below is derived both from the original _Dominion_ 
manga and the _Dominion: Conflict 1_ manga.   
 
Bonaparte is very fast, capable of keeping up with a speeding motorcycle. 
It is also well armored, withstanding a dead on barrage of 30mm cannon 
shells with no ill effects (well, to the tank, the crew's hearing is 
another matter).  The main gun looks to be about 75mm (based on the size 
of the shell when Leona picks one up).  It can fire the standard 
assortment of HE, HEAT, HEAP and APFSDS rounds, as well as a 'glue' shell 
and some sort of rubber 'stun' round.  Shirow also mentions fire-fighting 
rounds as well as radio tracking shells. 
 
The rear turret contains a multi barreled 12.7mm minigun (_Dominion_) or 
22mm rotary cannon (_Dominion: Conflict 1_).  This is called the 
wide-angle gun in _Dominion: Conflict 1_, and fires either 'live' rounds 
or rubber 'stun' rounds.  As it has several thousand rounds of each, I 
figured 0 END worked best.  Note: to best simulate the full autofire 
capabilities of this weapon, one could write it up with either the AoE: 
Cone or Line advantage. 
 
Mounted on top of the main gun is a coaxial taser, capable of firing a 
powerful, short-ranged, electrical discharge. 
 
Aside from all its weapons, Bonaparte also packs some serious sensory 
hardware.  It has an aerial video link that it can use to connect to any 
observation blimps in the area.  Naturally, this feed requires a blimp be 
present, as well as clear weather.  It also has an audio tracking system 
that can be used to trace someone by analyzing their movement echoes. 
There is also some sort of optical scanner system that can be used to look 
*through* certain objects (at one point it is used to look inside the 
trunk of a car).  There are also two manipulator limb mounted behind the 
main turret.  These limbs look to be limited to a maximum of 20 STR, and 
have a range of about one hex.  The rest of Bonaparte's systems are pretty 
standard for both a tank and a police car. 
 
Note: GMs can go wild adding equipment to Bonaparte.  At the very least it 
should have some sort of computer system (like in modern police cars) 
loaded with data on vehicle registrations, criminal records and so on. 
 
Disadvantages Notes: 
Bonaparte's disads are pretty standard for a vehicle.  Between its shape 
and paint job it's pretty unmistakable.  Naturally, the Newport Police try 
to keep a close watch on it as well.  Finally, since it is a tank, 
Bonaparte doesn't have the easiest access.  Depending on which version of 
the tank you use, one is either limited to the top turret hatch, or the 
turret hatch and a side hatch. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VALUE		COST 
Size		2.5x1.25	20 
DCV		-2	 
Mass (KB)	12.5t (-7)	 
Str		45		0 
DEF		17		45 
Body		16		2 
Dex		18		24 
Spd		4		12 
Grnd Move	10x4		25 
MAX		160	 
Char Total			128 
Equip Total			293 
Total Cost			421 
 
COST	EQUIPMENT 
19	DEF is Hardened 
20	Density Increase: 3 Levels, 0 END, Persistant, Always On, +15 STR, 
	-3" KB 
 
	Weapons Systems: 
59	Multipower: 75mm Main Gun, 9 Shots (-1/4), OIF (-1) 
6	u APFSDS: 4d6 RKA, Armor Piercing (x2) (+1), +4 RMod 
3	u Glue: 5d6 Entange, Opaque to Sight (+5pts), Explosive (+1/2) 
4	u HE: 4d6 RKA, +1 Stun (+1/2), +2 RMod 
3	u Stun: 7d6 EB (physical); + 7D6 EB (physical), Stun Only (+0) 
 
66	Multipower: 12.5mm Mini-gun, Rear 180 degree arc (-1/4),  
	OAF (-1 1/2), Requires 1 Phase to switch slots (-1/4) 
6	u Live: 3d6 RKA, +1 Stun (+1/2), 0 END (+1), +6 OCV, +4 RMod,  
	AF 20 (+1) 
5	u Rubber: 5d6 EB (physical); +5d6 EB (physical), Stun Only (+0), 0 
	END (+1), +6 OCV, +4 RMod, AF 20 (+1) 
 
11	8d6 EB, 4 Shots (-1), No Knockback (-1/4), Reduced by Range (-1/4),  
	OIF (taser) (-1) 
 
	Other Equipment: 
2	Absolute Timesense, IIF (internal clock) 
2	Bump of Direction, IIF (internal locator) 
14	Clairsentience: Sight group, 3200" range, 0 END, Activation  
	Roll 11- (can see into areas if aerial video link is  
	available) (-1), Requires a Systems Operation roll (-1/2), Limited 
	viewing: can be obscured by bad weather/clouds (-1/2),  
	Requires a full Turn to set up (-1), IIF (aerial video link) 
4	Clinging, Requires closely spaced walls (-1), Cannot resist  KB or 
	throws (-1/4) 
9	Change Enviroment (bright lights & sound): 4"r, 0 END, No Range, 
	OIF (lights & siren) 
12	Darkness, to normal sight, 4"r, No Range, 6 Shots of one Turn  
	each (-1/4), OAF (smoke projector) 
5	Extra Limbs: Two manipulator arms mounted on rear of tank 
6	HRRH, IIF (internal radio) (-3/4) 
26	Discriminatory, Tracking, Targeting 360 degree Hearing, IIF (audio 
	sensor array) 
11	N-Ray Vision (not through dense materials - lead, force fields 
	etc), IIF visual scanner array) 
 
Disadvantages 
377	Base 
20	DF: Newport Police Mini-Tank (not conc, maj) 
10	Phys: Limited access (takes at least a full phase to get into or 
out of the tank) 
15	Watched: Newport Police Dept. (mopow, NCI, lim geo) 11- 
 
(Bonaparte created by Masamune Shirow, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:55:57 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: CHAR: Anna & Uni Puma 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
ANNA & UNI PUMA 
 
Designers Notes: 
The Puma sisters are one of Shirow's more famous creations.  A pair of 
virtually identical androids (or replicants), the exact details as to the 
sister's origins (as to who made them and why) is never examined.  The 
Puma sisters first appeared in Shirow's original _Dominion_ manga, where 
they acted as the main muscle for Buaku's gang.  They repeated this role 
in the first _Dominion_ anime, supplying large amounts of heavy firepower. 
In _Crusher Police Dominion_ the sisters are pretty much homeless, and 
live in a parking garage (although they still have access to guns).  In 
_Dominion: Conflict 1_, the Puma sisters end up getting recruited into the 
Newport City Police department (a scary prospect to be sure), since, as 
androids, they are not considered legally responsible for their actions (a 
nice dodge if I ever saw one...). 
 
Description: 
Anna and Uni are perfect twins, with no real way to tell them apart.  The 
sisters are tall, *very* tall, standing well over 6' in height, with a 
well-muscled and broad shouldered build.  A good estimate would place them 
at close to 6'3", considering how they tower over *everyone* in _Dominion_ 
(including Captain Brenten).  Their eyes may (or may not) be mismatched, 
with one blue and one green (it depends on which piece of artwork one 
looks at).  If they are mismatched, it appears that the twins don't have 
the same mismatched eyes, either (ie. if Uni right eye is green and her 
left blue, then Anna's right is green and her left is blue).  The sisters 
also have great mops of unkept hair, thick enough to give them a virtual 
mane-like appearance and long enough to fall to their waists..  This hair 
is usually a blondish color, although the twins have been known to dye it. 
Finally, as their name suggests, the Puma sisters have a pair of long, 
tapering cat-like ears at the tops of their skulls. 
 
Powers Notes: 
The Puma sister's primary powers center around their android bodies.  They 
are stronger, faster and tougher than everyone else in the series (so 
far).  As androids, they don't age and don't get sick.  A conversation 
between Leona and Anna in _Dominion: Conflict 1_ indicates that they have 
a built in ballistic trajectory calculator and composite vision 
processors.  Their other Talents were added since it seemed to make sense, 
considering their origins. 
 
In the original _Dominion_ anime, the Puma sisters were usually armed to 
the teeth, carrying a whole assortment of weapons.  They seem to have a 
marked preference for autofire weapons, such as heavy assault rifles, and 
grenades.  The twins don't normally wear armor, counting on their 
dexterity and speed to keep them out of trouble.  When they do, it is 
usually a sectional suit consisting of a breastplate, pauldrons, vambraces 
and greaves.   
 
Before becoming freelance criminals, the Puma sisters used to be 
strippers.  They are excellent dancers and have used their... uh... 
'talents' to escape from the police on at least one occasion.  The rest of 
their skills are pretty standard for anyone who makes their living through 
violent crime. 
 
There are several optional powers that interested GMs could tack onto the 
pair.  In the original _Dominion_ manga, Anna gets her arm shot off, 
revealing a metal skeletal structure under the artificial flesh.  Such an 
skeleton could be represented by increased Body (with the 
limitation"Doesn't affect figured") and PD, as well as Damage Reduction, 
Resistant, Physical, Only vs Body (-1).  The twins should also have "Does 
not Bleed". 
 
In _Conflict One_, Anna (and presumably Uni) can shrink down to about 3' 
high, resulting in a 'super-deformed' looking Puma.  Activating this 
Shrinking power results in a big explosion and a great deal of water being 
sprayed about, while returning to 'normal' requires Anna to drink several 
gallons of water.  This power is best represented by a Multiform, since 
shrunk Anna certainly *didn't* have the strength or agility of her taller 
form.  Likely limitations include a single recoverable charge of several 
hours duration and Side Effects: Explosion.  Obviously, this ability and 
the metal skeleton wouldn't work together. 
 
Disadvantages Notes: 
The Puma sister's disads are pretty much self explanitory.  Their unusual 
size and looks makes them pretty easy to spot.  They are known criminals, 
and high on the Newport Tank Police's wanted list.  Both of them are 
pretty proud of their artificial origins and don't take kindly to be 
referred to as robots, love dolls, or machines.  They tend to be violent, 
and certainly enjoy using autofire weapons as a way of resolving almost 
any problem.  One thing that should be made clear, however, is that the 
two aren't what one could call a brain trust.  At times they are 
significantly less than bright.  For example in _Dominion: Conflict 1_, 
Uni talks about finding a nice room (complete with 'sleeping bags') in the 
police station, where the two can stay the night (ie. the morgue).  In 
_Dominion_ one them is terrified by her own shadow...   
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		25		15 
Dex		23		39 
Con		23		26 
Body		15		10 
Int		8		-2 
Ego		8		-4 
Pre		20		10 
Com		16		3 
PD		10		5 
ED		8		3 
Spd		5		17 
Rec		10		0 
End		46		0 
Stun		40		0 
Char Total			122 
Power Total			218 
Total Cost			340 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
51	Generic Heavy Assault Rifle: 2d6+1 RKA, Autofire 5, +1 Stun,  
	+2 OCV, +2 RMod, 40 Shots, OAF 
22	Generic Big Pistol: 2d6 RKA, +1 Stun, 16 shots, OAF 
8	Generic Anime Body Armor: 6 DEF, Covers Locations 6-7, 9-12, 15-18 
	or Act 12- (-3/4), OIF 
 
7	Damage Reduction: 1/4 Physical, Stun Only (-1/2) 
8	Running: +4" (10"/20") 
5	Superleap: +5" (10"/5") 
3	Ambidexterity 
3	Double Jointed 
9	Enhanced Perception: +3 
3	Lightning Calculator 
6	LS: Immune to Aging, Disease 
 
5	Concentrated Sprayfire 
5	Rapid Autofire 
 
3	Acrobatics 14- 
3	Breakfall 14- 
3	Climbing 14- 
5	Combat Driving: Motorcycle 15- 
3	Combat Driving: Tank 14- 
3	Contortionist 14- 
5	Fast Draw 15- 
3	Gambling 11- 
4	KS: Dancing (DEX) 14- 
4	PS: Erotic Dancer (DEX) 14- 
3	Seduction 13- 
3	Sleight of Hand 14- 
3	Stealth 14- 
3	Streetwise 13- 
2	TF: Ground Vehicles 
8	WF: Small Arms, Common Melee Weapons, Flamethrowers, Grenade  
	Launchers, Heavy Machine Guns, Rocket Launchers  
10	CSL: +2 with HTH 
15	CSL: +3 with Firearms 
 
Disadvantages: 100+ 
10	DF: Cat-like ears, extreme height (6'2"), unusual hair colors  
10	Destitute (never seem to have any money) 
10	Enraged: 14- / 11- if insulted (example: calling them a 
	'bio-mechanical love doll) 
20	Hunted: Tank Police 14- (AsPow) 
10	Phys: Amazingly clueless about certain facts of life 
20	Psych: Triggerhappy - they like to shoot things 
15	Psych: Greedy - they really like money, luxuries and 
	'superweapons' 
15	Psych: Reckless - they are loonies with guns 
0	(10) Psych: Devoted to Buaku 
15	Rep: Gun-crazy and violent 11- (ext) 
115	Bio-Mechanical Love Doll Bonus 
 
(Anna & Uni Puma created by Masamune Shirow, character sheet created by 
Michael Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:59:14 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: CHAR: Greenpeace Crolis 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
GREENPEACE CROLIS 
 
Designers Notes: 
Greenpeace is an artificial lifeform created to survive unaided in the 
toxic bacteria-laden atmosphere of _Dominion_.  Her exact origins are very 
mysterious, and are only hinted at in the the original _Dominion_ manga. 
The _Dominion_ anime goes into a little more depth as to her origins and 
purpose, but still doesn't tell us *who* made Greenpeace.  We do know that 
she is part animal and part plant, and quite capable of surviving under a 
variety of environmental conditions.  Is someone trying to design 
mankind's replacement? 
 
Description: 
Greenpeace is fairly short, standing about 5' even.  She has a slim build, 
probably weighs between 85 to 95 pounds and looks to be no more that 16 
years old.  Her skin is a light green color, while her straight, shoulder 
length hair is glossy black.  Greenpeace also has a set of large, 
insect-like wings that sprout from between her shoulder blades.  Due to 
her wings, she can only wear clothing that doesn't have to pass over her 
shoulders.  Of course, due to her physical make-up, she doesn't really 
need to wear *any* clothing. 
 
Powers Notes: 
As an artificial lifeform, Greenpeace is can survive extremes of cold and 
heat far beyond the human norm with no signs of discomfort.  She also 
processes sunlight directly and doesn't need to eat.  Greenpeace doesn't 
seem to age, is unaffected by disease, and can shut down all external 
functions to the point she will appear to be dead (or some sort of large 
doll). 
 
Greenpeace's most impressive functions is the ability to purify the air 
around her.  She is a living air processor, cleaning toxins and other 
impurities out of the air and producing a more oxygen rich environment. 
This power has been bought as a Cumulative Transformation Attack since it 
has a major affect on the game.  In a more 4-color universe, Greenpeace's 
air-cleaning power might be considered a simple Change Environment. 
 
Although Greenpeace herself isn't very big, her wings give her quite a bit 
of leverage.  Anyone trying to push her around by grabbing on to her wings 
might find themselves in for a rude surprise.  By the way, her having 
wings is never explained; my guess is they serve to dissipate heat by 
increasing surface area without a major increase in mass. 
 
Disadvantages Notes: 
Having green skin and wings certain makes Greenpeace stand out in a crowd. 
She is somewhat unused to Earth society (she tried to sniff a bouquet of 
artifical flowers for example).  Her construction requires some very 
specialized medical attention.  For example, one of the characters in the 
_Dominion_ manga opened her up at one point and couldn't figure out where 
her lungs were.  The rest of her disads should be pretty self-explanitory. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		5		-5 
Dex		10		0 
Con		15		15 
Body		9		-2 
Int		15		5 
Ego		15		10 
Pre		10		0 
Com		16		3 
PD		4		3 
ED		4		1 
Spd		2		0 
Rec		4		0 
End		30		0 
Stun		20		0 
Char Total			30 
Power Total			63 
Total Cost			93 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
6	+15 STR, Does not Affect Figured (-1/2), Only with Wings (-1),  
	END 2 
25	1d6 Major Transformation Attack: Polluted Air to Clean Air,  
	Cumulative (+1/2), AoE - Radius 3" (+1 1/4), 0 END, Persistant, No 
	Range 
14	Life Support: No need to eat; Immune to heat/cold, disease, aging 
5	Extra Limbs: Wings 
3	Simulate Death 
 
4	KS: Ecology 13- 
3	KS: Philiosophy 12- 
2	PS: Writer 11- 
4	SC: Ecology 13- 
 
Disadvantages 
25	Base 
15	DF: Green skin, insect-like wings 
15	Phys: Little practical knowledge of Earth society 
10	Phys: Requires specialized medical attention 
0	(10) Phys: Bulky wings 
10	Psych: Dislikes dark or dimly lit areas 
18	Living Air-cleaner Bonus 
 
(Greenpeace Crolis created by Masamune Shirow, character sheet created by 
Michael Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Dear ChampionPersons 
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:32:52 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tuesday, November 11, 1997 7:44 AM,  Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
 
>At 12:13 PM 11/10/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>> 
>>N-Ray allowed normal vision through solid objects, X-Ray gave you 
>>vague black and white pictures, like an X-Ray. 
>> 
>Nope, at least not in the Champions book I'm quoting out of...  Could 
be 
>that X-ray was already defined, and N-ray gave you flexibility... 
> 
Back in the second edition, I believe, it was as I put it. In the 
third edition, I believe they neglected to properly explain the 
difference. Then, in the 4th Ed., x-ray became nothing more than a 
form of N-ray. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:07:13 -0800 
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On Tuesday, November 11, 1997 7:45 AM, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
<snip> 
>> 
>1) I don't think it's "serious." 
 
Being twice as tall and wide and eight times as large as everyone else 
isn't a serious problem? 
 
>2) You could probably take a Phys. Lim. if you feel this way, as 
well. 
>I regularly allow my Players to gain DF: Powers.  Usually, it's no 
more than 
>Easily Concealable, as they can *just turn it off*.  This is the same 
thing 
>as the "problems" you are describing with Growth.  Take a 5 pt. Phys 
Lim, 
>you get 4 (net) points for taking the Growth, and you can always 
*turn it off*! 
 
Ah, _that's_ why you don't think its serious. You forget, the above 
figures assumed "Always On". Take that out, and the cost goes up by 
50%, making the cost disparity even greater. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:12:48 -0800 
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On Tuesday, November 11, 1997 7:45 AM, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
 
>At 04:49 PM 11/9/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
<snip> 
>>I think that you and I are talking real world, while Jeremiah is 
>>talking game mechanic; hence, the confusion. 
>> 
>I would accept this statement from you except for one main point. 
You 
>*weren't* talking *only* real world.  If you were, the terms "Growth, 
one 
>level, 0 END, Persitent, Always On" wouldn't've come up in your end 
of the 
>conversation. 
 
 
You are quite correct. I wasn't talking _only_ "real world". However, 
she clearly saw that particular point as real world, as I intended, 
while you did not. This is my fault for explaining myself poorly, 
which is why I already apologised for presenting it poorly. 
 
Filksinger 
 
>I realize that fat is less dense than muscle.  I've lifeguarded and 
>instructed swimming and lifesaving classes for 5 summers.  Just from 
my own 
>body's experience, I know that once I lost the extra 20 pounds from 
junior 
>high, I started to sink like a rock! 
>So, the *average* "fat" person will float better than the *average* 
"skinny" 
>person.  But it isn't always this way, either. 
> 
 
True. But talking real world again, a person whose density was twice 
normal for his build would sink very rapidly. Take the best swimmers 
in the world, double their density, and watch them try to swim. 
 
This is significant enough that I would generally require anyone who 
wanted a "non-sinking" DI to give a significant disadvantage to their 
way of doing things, to make up for not being too heavy to float. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:19:56 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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On Tuesday, November 11, 1997 2:36 PM, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
 
<snip> 
>i have one word for you gentlemen- reach? 
 
What about it? In order for reach to affect a character with growth, 
three levels of growth are required. Any normal man with even two 
levels worth of growth with SFX Obesity is virtually incapacitated, 
unable to stand without help, barely capable of walking, at an 
absolute minimum. Beyond one level of either growth or DI, a person 
that fat is an invalid; no power is required to simulate this, only a 
severe Phys. Lim. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:02:47 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Energy Solidification 
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        Energy solidification is a power that allows a hero to 
solidify energy.  In the four color genre it is often used with 
energy shaping powers to 'build' solid constructs- i.e. a cage of 
flame is not solid.  Someone could run through it (and take damage). 
Energy solidification would make 'hard flame,' somthing that resembled 
a solid. 
	Examples of energy solidifcation are the above hard flame cage, 
walls of electricity that ae 
re 'hard', superoxyacetelene torches used 
as a sword, 'hard' energy animals, and solid illusions. 
	How would you represent this in Champions?  I understand 
the shaping part would probally be a VPP with the apropiate energy 
being the Sf/x, but what about a character who could just 
solidify the powers of others, as well as mundane energy sources. 
						-Jason 
 
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:20:44 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Powers and Travel Time 
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	How fast does a power get to a target? 
	What are the velocity of powers?  How long does it take a given  
power to reach a given target?  If the answer is 'instantaneous,' then how 
would you represent a power that needs time to travel to it's target 
(perhaps giving the defending character time to move out of the way). 
 
	Light power 
s up his arm and fires at a gas station a few feet away. 
*BOOM!*  Light's power is fast (well, as fast as light!), he wasn't that 
far from his target, so it was pretty much instantaneous. 
	Fallout and Dr. TekNo are working on the Tac-Nuke Hero Assassin 
project.  Dr. TekNo gives Fallout his Tac-Nuke rocket propelled gyro 
gun and his Eye-in-the-sky virtual computer scope.  Fallout takes 
to the skies, above Nevada, and aims at Primal-Rex, who happens 
to be in Texas.  The rocket is launched while Primal-Rex is chomping 
on cattle.  It will take time to get there, but when it does, Primal-Rex 
is in for a might nasty case of indigestion. 
 
	So tell me what you think. 
 
						-Jason 
 
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 97 15:25:57 GMT 
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk 
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness) 
Subject: Re: Powers and Travel Time 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:20 AM 12/11/97, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>	How fast does a power get to a target? 
>	What are the velocity of powers?  How long does it take a given  
>power to reach a given target?  If the answer is 'instantaneous,' then how 
>would you represent a power that needs time to travel to it's target 
>(perhaps giving the defending character time to move out of the way). 
> 
 
I think that a power could be modelled by allowing the target a DEX roll. I  
think I would modify it with the same limitations as available for  
activation roll. If most opponents are going to have around 23 DEX then it  
would be worth a 1/2 limitation (14 or less) if his opponents are higher  
class then you could increase the limitation. 
 
Just a quick fix, but one with a good structure to build on.... 
 
 
Stephen 
 
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:20:02 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: I need a miracle! 
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	The good Dr. S and Vampire Killer have just returned from  
the dark pits of Agalor after battling the minions of Pithos, the 
Arch-Ghoul.  They happen upon a preist on their return. 
	Hothael the holy invites them into the time worn church so 
he may tend to their wounds. 
	"...and you tell me you fight these undead?" asks Hothael. 
	"To _our_ deaths, I would suppose" Dr. S chides while gripping 
a sore length of stitches. 
	"I'm suprised you have managed to stay here this long 
Hothael.  It's dangerous around these parts." Vampire Killer states. 
	"I have holy righteous on my side.  It protects me.  It flows 
through this place and keeps us safe..." Hothael cheerfuly replies 
as he bandages Vampire Killer's burned arms. 
	Just then, five gruesome beats drenched in the slick stench 
of putrecent decay head across chruch grounds.  By the time they reach 
the doors, however, they are naught but smouldering ash. 
	Hosepth puts his eyes to the heavens, gazing up at the vast 
domed ceiling of the holy church.  "Indeed... it does work in mysterious 
ways." 
 
	How to you represent miracles and general holiness in a HERO 
campagin?  If you use a VPP, what are valid limitations (the example 
above shows the 'power' used without concious control, but Hothael 
and his brother Hosepth could not control the actual effects)? 
Could a 'base' (the church) possess the same type of holiness? 
...and would it be possible to pool the unfettered righteous might 
of Hosepth, Hothael, the bulky foci 'Cross of the Savior' and the 
holy ground of the church in the midsts of the heroic battle against 
the evil Dhampri Strogo, Overlord of Darkness? 
 
	Tell me what you think. 
						-Jason 
 
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:26:54 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Re: TUSV (Vechiles/Weapons) 
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	Rad Dude is a character who has an Ubatanium reinforced 
skateboard.  He uses it to bat evil villians over the head, as 
a shield whilst in the midsts of battle, and as a really speedy 
ground vechile. 
 
	Lasher, the whip weilding hero, wants to build a handheld 
swing line as a vechile, as well as adding powers on to it 
(like entangle) in a power pool. 
 
	What do you think of this idea? 
							-Jason 
 
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 06:59:20 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
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At 01:19 AM 11/12/97 -0800, you wrote: 
>On Tuesday, November 11, 1997 2:36 PM, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
> 
><snip> 
>>i have one word for you gentlemen- reach? 
> 
>What about it? In order for reach to affect a character with growth, 
>three levels of growth are required. Any normal man with even two 
>levels worth of growth with SFX Obesity is virtually incapacitated, 
>unable to stand without help, barely capable of walking, at an 
>absolute minimum. Beyond one level of either growth or DI, a person 
>that fat is an invalid; no power is required to simulate this, only a 
>severe Phys. Lim. 
> 
 
once again, this is your interpretation. . it's not the only one. .  
 
 
>Filksinger 
> 
> 
 
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:11:57 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: I need a miracle! 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
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At 11:20 AM 11/12/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>	How to you represent miracles and general holiness in a HERO 
>campagin?  If you use a VPP, what are valid limitations (the example 
>above shows the 'power' used without concious control, but Hothael 
>and his brother Hosepth could not control the actual effects)? 
>Could a 'base' (the church) possess the same type of holiness? 
>...and would it be possible to pool the unfettered righteous might 
>of Hosepth, Hothael, the bulky foci 'Cross of the Savior' and the 
>holy ground of the church in the midsts of the heroic battle against 
>the evil Dhampri Strogo, Overlord of Darkness? 
> 
>	Tell me what you think. 
>						-Jason 
> 
 
try useinga followerr or just a character- a 'guardian spirit', which  
could be an actual spirit or just an earthly manifiestation of the  
'big guy'. It can have desolid, invisible, physical limitations,  
and a big fat vpp. . . .pooling vpps is fun but kinda goddy, becasue  
you have to determine the active points limit. I'd just say to hell with it 
and add all the subtotals together, i mean it's not like the gm's going 
to be pulling any punches with old Dhampris' active points totals. .  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 06:45:47 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Houston, I think we have a problem... 
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Dear ChampPersons, 
	I haven't been receiving that many mailings (perhps 12 at maxium 
yesterday), and it's beginning to wear on my fragile psyche... 
	I just want to know if everyone else has recived the 12 or 
so mailings like myself or if I'm just unlucky and this server is 
erasing my mail. 
					Always paranoid, 
					    Jason 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 06:48:54 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Houston, I think we have a problem... 
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At 06:45 AM 11/13/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>Dear ChampPersons, 
> I haven't been receiving that many mailings (perhps 12 at maxium 
>yesterday), and it's beginning to wear on my fragile psyche... 
> I just want to know if everyone else has recived the 12 or 
>so mailings like myself or if I'm just unlucky and this server is 
>erasing my mail. 
>     Always paranoid, 
 
   Naw, the list is just settling down after the big initial discussion on 
TUSV and the acrimonius debate over Density Increase.  It'll pick up again 
soon enough, when someone brings up some topic that sparks another debate. 
Either that, or a whole bunch of little discussions will start up (which is 
the preference).  Either way, within two or three weeks you can expect to 
see 60 or so posts per day again. 
   You can usually tell when the traffic is naturally low because Michael 
Surbrook posts characters. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:51:28 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Houston, I think we have a problem... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:38 PM 11/13/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>BTW: I posted some adaptions of characters from Dominion... did anyone 
>actually see them?  I was expecting to see a little talk about Bonaparte 
>the Tank at least, consider all the TUSV posts... 
> 
Got 'em, just haven't had a chance to analyze 'em... 
 
>(of course, I was also expecting to see someone go ballistic over Tetsuo 
>at 1050 points too...) 
> 
OK, how about...  that's all it took!?  Man, you're good. 
 
- Jerry, who will relook at those characters to help pick 'em apart... 
 
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:59:10 -0500 
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org> 
Subject: List outage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 8 
 
 
 
The server which houses the Hero System mailing list crashed yesterday; some 
mail was certainly lost, and any of you who tried to send to the list might 
have received bounce messages. All should be up and working now. 
 
Geoff Speare 
geoff@omg.org 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 20:41:32 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Houston, I think we have a problem... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:00 PM 11/13/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>> >(of course, I was also expecting to see someone go ballistic over Tetsuo 
>> >at 1050 points too...) 
>> > 
>> OK, how about...  that's all it took!?  Man, you're good. 
> 
>Oh.. gee... thanks. 
> 
Well, I didn't intend it to be *insulting*... 
Here's some more specific results, tho. 
You did warn that ol' Tetsuo(! Kenada!) was powerful, right at the 
beginning...  If I (and my Anime watching players) think about how powerful 
their characters are, and how powerful Tetsuo is...  1050 points doesn't 
seem that far out of line, does it? 
The VPP helps a lot for bringing the cost *down*, obviously.  Is the RKA 
Linked *always* used with the VPP? 
Should the Danger Sense really be "Out of combat?"  Was he surprised by 
Kenada(!) in that fight? 
Should Addiction to uppers be a Psych Lim, as you define it, or a Phys Lim? 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:45:19 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Acronyms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Rick Holding wrote: 
>  
> Robert A. West wrote: 
 
> > > Come up with one for "GENOCIDE" and I'll really be impressed.:) 
> > 
> > Global Eugenic Normalization Organization for Classification, 
> > Identification, Detection and Elimination. 
> > 
> > You may substitute "Genome" for "Global," but I think that is weaker. 
 
>   How about replacing Classification with Control and Detection with 
> Detention. 
 
Actually, I had conceived the acronym based on GENOCIDE's apparent  
modus operandi:  
 
1) Classify and prioritize the mutants. 
2) Identify who is a mutant. 
3) Track or investigate the mutants. 
4) Kill the mutants. 
 
I never realy thought if detention as an option for GENOCIDE, but that  
may just be the campaigns that I have been in. 
 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:56:59 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Two weapon style 
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org" 
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	Wolfram the Mongoose is a theif with style.  He often fights 
with two weapons at the same time, and likes to strike with them 
simultaneously.  He also uses two crossbows at the same time during 
interrogations, pointing one each at the king's men, promising he'll shoot 
the man who gives him the least information. 
 
	How would you simulate this effect? 
 
X-Originating-IP: [206.88.2.1] 
From: "Todd Hanson" <badtodd@hotmail.com> 
Subject: Re: Twe weapon Style 
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:16:57 CST 
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>        Wolfram the Mongoose is a theif with style.  He often fights 
>with two weapons at the same time, and likes to strike with them 
>simultaneously.  He also uses two crossbows at the same time during 
>interrogations, pointing one each at the king's men, promising he'll  
shoot 
>the man who gives him the least information. 
 
Umm.. don't take this the wrong way, but have you bothered to read the  
FAQ? 
 
I'm pretty sure that about 75% of the questions you've asked are already  
answered there... 
 
 
Todd 
 
------------------------------------------------------- 
Please note that I only SEND from this address - I do 
not receive email at this address.  Please reply to me 
at badtodd@dacmail.net     :)   thanks! 
------------------------------------------------------- 
 
 
______________________________________________________ 
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com 
 
Subject: Has anyone done a write-up of... 
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 97 12:16:42 -0500 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Has anyone out there already done a write-up of the little girl from  
"Firestarter"?  
 
I have a GM who asked me to write this up for him, but I haven't seen the  
movie in so long, I can't remember everything she did. What I do recall  
is: 
 
RKA, Ranged, Continuous, Uncontrolled, Concentrate at 0 DCV, Extra time 
Damage shield/Force field (was there missle reflection in there?) 
Telepathy (she could "see" the approaching agents) 
 
I have not been able to work out a good way of doing the "the longer she  
concentrates, the more damage she can do and the more time it takes to  
'cool' her down" limitation. 
 
Any thoughts? 
 
                                         |  David A. Fair 
        Think Different                  |  SDS International 
                                         |  dfair@sdslink.com 
 
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:25:25 -0800 
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger) 
Subject: Spirit Rules... 
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part 
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     Since this seems to have bounced the first time... 
      
     I'm planning a present-day paranormal investigations campaign, but I'm  
     not sure about the Spirit rules.  
      
     Some of the opposition will be ghosts and demons. Are the exorcism  
     rules as presented in Horror Hero and the Almanac a good way to get  
     rid of these bad guys? Are the Shift Spirit powers priced equal to  
     what they are worth, or are they overpriced (as they seem)? 
      
     Any comments? 
      
     Richard 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:34:26 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Filipino Heroes/Villains/Folklore 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
        I was wondering...  has anyone on the list written up Filipino 
heroes or villains, or know of where I could get information on Filipino 
myth or folklore?  Seems I will be running a game or two for my friend and 
his sister and maybe two others...  and they're all Filipino, and I'm just 
some ignorant white dude.  I may set the game in the Philippines, but I'd 
like to include some real life background flavor in the NPC heroes/villains. 
Any help at all would be appreciated. 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:57:58 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Two weapon style 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:56 AM 11/13/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
> Wolfram the Mongoose is a theif with style.  He often fights 
>with two weapons at the same time, and likes to strike with them 
>simultaneously.  He also uses two crossbows at the same time during 
>interrogations, pointing one each at the king's men, promising he'll shoot 
>the man who gives him the least information. 
> 
> How would you simulate this effect? 
 
   Well, for one thing, Wolfram would probably have ambidexterity and (if 
the Skill is in use in the campaign) WF: Off Hand. 
   As for attacking twice at once, the only way to do this is by taking 
Autofire with his primary attack; I personally would allow a -1 1/2 
Limitation "Two Shots Only" to give some bonus for only being able to use 
two shots and not five. 
   This could also be done by buying up the attack to twice its base size 
and taking Reduced Penetration on it, or by simply using a variation on the 
Sweep maneuver. 
   The crossbows need no special mechanic; he just holds one in each hand. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:06:54 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Shield Multipower 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>	Flipping through the only Champions supplement I have, I found 
>something that was built into a Mulitpower. 
Which supplememnt is this?  (just outta curiosity...) 
>	It's for a cane with a number of combat abilities, locked into 
>with a ultra slot HKA for a spring loaded blade, a m slot for 
>Missile Def. vs. Thrown Objects and Projectiles, and another 
>ultra slot, HTH, Ranged, Range Based on STR, 1 Recoverable charge if 
>thrown, Lockout if Thrown (No other Multipower slot can be used if 
>'X' throws his cane at an opponent, -3/4). 
I agree with this in general, although I'm puzzled why the Missle Deflection 
would need a Multi slot...  I guess it could reflect the fact that you could 
be getting ready to (or just had) strike someone, but then had to Abort to 
MD suddenly... and your lack of preparedness would give you penalties. 
>	I assume you could do the same with a Multipower shield. 
In my experience, yes. 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:54:10 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Spirit Rules... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote: 
 
>      Since this seems to have bounced the first time... 
>       
>      I'm planning a present-day paranormal investigations campaign, but I'm  
>      not sure about the Spirit rules.  
>       
>      Some of the opposition will be ghosts and demons. Are the exorcism  
>      rules as presented in Horror Hero and the Almanac a good way to get  
>      rid of these bad guys? Are the Shift Spirit powers priced equal to  
>      what they are worth, or are they overpriced (as they seem)? 
>       
 
Actually, your message didn't bounce, but it appears my reply did. 
 
 
The Spirit rules are one of the less popular add-ons to the Hero System. 
As far as the basic concept goes, I like them a lot; they add some 
much-needed mechanics to simulate the proceedings and the feel of 
possessions, ghosts, spirits bound within objects, and even gods. It makes 
intuitive sense that the same rules should describe these beings, and the 
basic workings of the Spirit rules do so nicely. 
 
These rules fail in two important respects, though. They overlap 
uncomfortably with existing rules for desolidication, movement, etc., and 
show little effort to establish any consistent relationship with the older 
rules. They're also hopelessly muddled in the details. The rules for 
senses are unclear, poor editing (even in the revised Horror Hero version) 
leads to self-contradiction, and some aspects just don't seem as well 
thought out as they should be. 
 
As far as the point cost goes, I wouldn't worry about it. The abilities 
seem worth their price, at least. And since Spirit powers can have some 
nasty consequences, the GM should be keeping a close eye on them, too. 
 
I would suggest you use them, but study them carefully before hand, and do 
what you need to to make them consistent with your use of the Hero System 
in general. 
 
 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 00:26:07 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Twe weapon Style 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 02:54 PM 11/14/97 +1000, Michael Jones wrote: 
someone else wrote: 
>>Umm.. don't take this the wrong way, but have you bothered to read the  
>>FAQ? 
>> 
>>I'm pretty sure that about 75% of the questions you've asked are already  
>>answered there... 
> 
>actually this is the first one 'alone' has asked which is an obvious. .  
>the others have been interesting and grounded in role-play instead of 
>mechanics. . 
> 
Actually, the only thing I found in the FAQ about this was the 
all-so-helpful statement that you can only make one attack action per Phase. 
The other comment that I have on this is that AAM's question seems to be 
based on a slight confusion of genre issues and rules...  in Heroic 
settings, you don't (necessarily) have to buy your weapons...  I could see 
you getting the WF: Offhand that someone had mentioned, holding the two 
crossbows at opposing heads, and then shooting the appropriate one... 
I could also see the Sweep being used to shoot both, also as someone else 
pointed out. 
Would I allow these in a Superheroic game...?  Um, maybe? 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:31:12 -0800 (PST) 
From: Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca> 
Subject: Re: Two weapon style 
X-X-Sender: duane@science.yorku.ca 
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On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
 
> 	Wolfram the Mongoose is a theif with style.  He often fights 
> with two weapons at the same time, and likes to strike with them 
> simultaneously.  He also uses two crossbows at the same time during 
> interrogations, pointing one each at the king's men, promising he'll shoot 
> the man who gives him the least information. 
>  
> 	How would you simulate this effect? 
 
A combination of Ambidexterity and/or WF: Offhand <to reduce OCV 
penalties>, and levels <depending upon how good he is with both weapons> 
 
Duane. 
 
------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca>   Dept. of Technical Services 
Faculty of Pure and Applied Science        Petrie Science Stores 
York University, North York, Ontario  M3J 1P3, CANADA 
Voice: (416) 736-5244; Fax: (416) 736-5516 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Spirit Rules... 
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:04:17 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thursday, November 13, 1997 8:58 AM, Richard G. Schwerdtfeger 
wrote: 
 
 
>     Since this seems to have bounced the first time... 
> 
>     I'm planning a present-day paranormal investigations campaign, 
but I'm 
>     not sure about the Spirit rules. 
> 
>     Some of the opposition will be ghosts and demons. Are the 
exorcism 
>     rules as presented in Horror Hero and the Almanac a good way to 
get 
>     rid of these bad guys? Are the Shift Spirit powers priced equal 
to 
>     what they are worth, or are they overpriced (as they seem)? 
 
 
Spirit Shift is overpriced _as a combat power_, but not overall. As a 
combat power, it is effective but not cost efficient. However, it also 
allows for possession, astral travel, mind swapping, etc., making it 
cost effective overall, due to versatility. 
 
As for the spirit rules otherwise, I rather liked them. I haven't had 
much call to use them, but I like them. They are a bit inconsistent 
and unclear, however. They could do with a better write-up. 
 
Filksinger 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:05:10 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Essay: How do I? (long!) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 11:45 PM 11/13/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
Nice essay, but all good things can be nitpicked. :] 
 
>The trick here was to look at the part about rendering the target 
>incapable of moving.  This could be an Entangle, except the all or nothing 
>mechanics of Entangle (and the ability to slowly break free) didn't fit. 
>The effect sounded (to me) more like a grab.  Hiram (in effect) Grabs his 
>target and holds it still.  And what power would let me Grab someone at 
>range?  Telekinesis.  After that, things got easy.  The causing injury 
>part could be handled by linking different attack powers to the TK Grab. 
 
Unless I missed some special exception rule in the book regarding TK, I'd 
say this would be a redundant step -- Grabs already do damage if you want 
them to, and I'd hazard the opinion that the damage of Hiram's crushing 
gravity should be directly linked to its ability to keep you from moving -- 
which it automagically is taken from the TK's 1d6/5 STR. :] 
 
I'd add to this my personal rule of thumb for matching effects to Powers, 
the First Sentence Theorem: the rules are written so that the first sentence 
of any Power, Skill, Talent, etc. entry is a capsule summary of its purpose. 
When you're stuck in a tight spot between powers, check the first sentence 
and ask yourself if what you're trying to model coincides with what you're 
thinking of modeling it as.  This avoids a lot of the "interesting" 
constructions (as a certain HERO author calls them -- my group calls them 
"cheats" :]) like Invisibility qua infinite Mental Defense. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:38:58 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Houston, I think we have a problem... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    You can usually tell when the traffic is naturally low because Michael 
> Surbrook posts characters. 
 
Now Bob has got me sitting here scrathing my head wondering if this is a 
good thing or a bad thing... 
 
BTW: I posted some adaptions of characters from Dominion... did anyone 
actually see them?  I was expecting to see a little talk about Bonaparte 
the Tank at least, consider all the TUSV posts... 
 
(of course, I was also expecting to see someone go ballistic over Tetsuo 
at 1050 points too...) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 20:00:01 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Houston, I think we have a problem... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
> >(of course, I was also expecting to see someone go ballistic over Tetsuo 
> >at 1050 points too...) 
> > 
> OK, how about...  that's all it took!?  Man, you're good. 
 
Oh.. gee... thanks. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:18:00 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Density Increase 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 3 
 
Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
<<SNIPPED>> 
>         Nope.  DI increases Mass, not density.  The name is a bit of a 
> misnomer, but power names don't mean a whole lot in Champs.  An Energy 
> Blast does not have to be a blast of energy, remember. 
 
	Nooo, I have to disagree here.  While Density Increase does say it  
increases mass, if you increase the mass of an object while still keeping the  
volume the same, you are by default increasing the density. (hence the name  
of the power). 
 
	Growth, on the other hand, increases mass as well, but it does it by  
increasing the volume. 
 
	So, density increase gives greater mass by upping the density and  
growth by upping the volume.  The end result is the same, an increase in mass  
or weight. 
 
	As to should the increased defences be resistant, the example given  
of gold and lead gives excellent "proofs" that if you want it, pay for it. 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
 
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:31:02 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Acronyms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Robert A. West wrote: 
>  
> Trevor Barrie wrote: 
> > 
> > On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
> > 
>  
> > 
> > Come up with one for "GENOCIDE" and I'll really be impressed.:) 
>  
> Global Eugenic Normalization Organization for Classification, 
> Identification, Detection and Elimination. 
>  
> You may substitute "Genome" for "Global," but I think that is weaker. 
>   How about replacing Classification with Control and Detection with  
Detention. 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:15:03 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Houston, I think we have a problem... 
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On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
> >> >(of course, I was also expecting to see someone go ballistic over Tetsuo 
> >> >at 1050 points too...) 
> >> > 
> >> OK, how about...  that's all it took!?  Man, you're good. 
> > 
> >Oh.. gee... thanks. 
> > 
> Well, I didn't intend it to be *insulting*... 
 
Oops... forgot to add the ^_^ at the end of that. 
 
> Here's some more specific results, tho. 
> You did warn that ol' Tetsuo(! Kenada!) was powerful, right at the 
> beginning...  If I (and my Anime watching players) think about how powerful 
> their characters are, and how powerful Tetsuo is...  1050 points doesn't 
> seem that far out of line, does it? 
 
Umm... no, I guess not. 
 
> The VPP helps a lot for bringing the cost *down*, obviously.  Is the RKA 
> Linked *always* used with the VPP? 
 
Yes.  The RKA is Linked and has No Conscious Control.  Basically, it wil 
only go off when Tetsuo uses his powers and when the GM feels like it. 
The rule of thumb is that the NCC kicks in when he's using 150+ points of 
VPP. 
 
If you are really interested, drop by my website and go to the Kazei Five 
Worldbook page and read the psychokinetics article where I examine the 
idea of anime telekinetics in great detail. 
 
> Should the Danger Sense really be "Out of combat?"  Was he surprised by 
> Kenada(!) in that fight? 
 
He picks up on a lot ofthings in the manga that can only be expressed by 
DI.  It also helps from keeping him from getting blindsided, somrthing 
that *never* happens in the anime or manga (he almost always gets some  
sort of defense up in time. 
 
> Should Addiction to uppers be a Psych Lim, as you define it, or a Phys Lim? 
 
Depends.  Tetsuo's addiction is all in his head.  He doesn't really need 
them to make his powers work, he just thinks he does.  Steve Long goes 
into addictions to great length in his Dark Champions books and mentions 
both Psych and Phys addicions. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:45:12 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Shield Multipower 
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	Flipping through the only Champions supplement I have, I found 
something that was built into a Mulitpower. 
	It's for a cane with a number of combat abilities, locked into 
with a ultra slot HKA for a spring loaded blade, a m slot for 
Missile Def. vs. Thrown Objects and Projectiles, and another 
ultra slot, HTH, Ranged, Range Based on STR, 1 Recoverable charge if 
thrown, Lockout if Thrown (No other Multipower slot can be used if 
'X' throws his cane at an opponent, -3/4). 
	I assume you could do the same with a Multipower shield. 
 
						-Jason 
 
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:45:31 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Essay: How do I? (long!) 
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Well, I kinda wnet a little crazy and wrote 7 pages of hints and 
suggestions on how to write up fictional characters and odd powers.  If 
anyone has any other tips and suggestions, send him to me, I think this 
would be a cool Herozine (or Haymaker?) article (it's going on my website 
at least...) 
 
HOW DO I....? 
 
Recently we've seen a lot of  questions from Jason asking "How do I define 
X?".  That, coupled with David Fair's question about writing up Charlie 
McGee (_Firestarter_), made me decide to sit down and write up the 
following essay.  Now, I in *no* way believe myself or this article to be 
the final answer on how to write up anything, but I thought I'd share some 
hints and ideas with the rest of the list. 
 
PART 1: Building X power (or, How do you make it work in Champions?) 
 
Probably the biggest hurdle to over come when trying to adapt a power 
you've seen in a comic (of anime or film) is the concept of special 
effects.  A lot of times, people seem to get themselves all worked up over 
all the little details and forget the end result of the power in question. 
This will often lead to over-engineering the power, often to absurd power 
levels.  At one point, Stainless Steel Rat made a statement that I (upon 
reflection) found myself totally agreeing with, and have adopted it as my 
maxim when trying to decide how to define a power in Hero System terms. 
Simply put, Rat said: What is the end result of the power? 
 
What this means is that you need to look at what the power actually does 
when you get right down to basics.  For example: 
 
The character Mushizo from the anime _Ninja Scroll_ has a wasp's nest in 
his back, which he can use to produce huge clouds of wasps that will 
attack his opponents.  Originally, I really fretted over how to simulate 
this.  Giving him the ability to Summon 100,000 wasps was right out, but 
how about Summoning the swarm?  But then, how do I write up the swarm? 
Finally, I decided to look at the end result of the swarm being used: dead 
people.  So, the swarm should be written up as an RKA. 
 
The final result of the power looks like this: 
41	Wasp Swarm: 1/2d6 RKA, AoE: Radius 8" (+1 3/4), Continuous,  
	Uncontrolled, Indirect (+3/4), Penetrating, Personal Immunity,  
	0 END, No KB (-0), Does not work underwater, in high winds, or 
	heavy storms (-1/4), Swarm takes time to form, and can only move 
	3" per phase (-1/4) 
 
Another example would be Hiram Worchester from the _Wildcards_ shared 
world.  Hiram has the ability to increase and decrease gravity.  The GURPS 
version of this character had 'Gravity Power' since GURPS (and DC Heroes) 
pigeonholes every separate effect into its own power.  Anyway, trying to 
simulate his effects was much more difficult.  Once again, I decided to 
look at the end result of his powers and ignore all the descriptive text.   
 
Hiram can increase someone's weight to the point where they can't move, or 
decrease it so that they will float way.  He can increase the mass of his 
fist, and use it to smash objects (and people).  If he increases the local 
gravity fast enough, he can injure (or even kill) someone.   
 
The trick here was to look at the part about rendering the target 
incapable of moving.  This could be an Entangle, except the all or nothing 
mechanics of Entangle (and the ability to slowly break free) didn't fit. 
The effect sounded (to me) more like a grab.  Hiram (in effect) Grabs his 
target and holds it still.  And what power would let me Grab someone at 
range?  Telekinesis.  After that, things got easy.  The causing injury 
part could be handled by linking different attack powers to the TK Grab. 
Increasing the mass (or weight) of his fist was a simple application of 
Hand Attack.  When I had finished, his powers looked like this (and this 
is an important note: don't try and find just one power to solve the 
problem, look at what you get with multiple powers working together). 
 
100	45 STR TK, Invisible to Sight (+1/2), Indirect (+1/2), 0 END, 
	Persistent, Affects all parts of target (-1/4), Only to pull 
	down, push up (-1/2), Loses effect over time (-1/4) 
77	9d6 EB: Penetrating, Invisible to Sight (+1/2), Indirect (+1/2),  
	0 END, Linked to TK, No KB, Affects Physical 
77	3d6 HKA: Penetrating, Invisible to Sight (+1/2), Indirect (+1/2), 
	0 END, Linked to TK, No KB  
43	9d6 Hand Attack: Invisible to Sight (+1/2), 0 END, No KB  
14	5" Flight: Usable against others (+1), Ranged (+1/2), 0 END, 
	Persistent, No noncombat flight (-1/4),  
	Only to negate gravity (-1), Loses effect over time (-1/4) 
 
Now, how does this affect trying to build a power from scratch?  Simple, 
just look past the description of the power to the effect you are trying 
to achieve.   
 
Recently, the question was asked about creating flaming ropes to grab 
stuff, or solid sheets of flame that would stop incoming attacks.  Both of 
these powers are quite simple really.  The flaming rope allows me to grab 
things and move them about.  This is Telekinesis, nothing more.  Jumping 
Jack Flash (also from _Wildcards_) has a power like this, I wrote it up 
as: 
 
30 STR TK, 0 END, Affects all parts of target (-1/4) 
 
Now, if for some reason the flames project from me and can only lift what 
I can lift, then a case can be made for Stretching.  One could also toss 
in an Entangle as well.  The whole flaming part become simple SFX. 
Granted, if the flames are still hot and actually *can* burn people, that 
can become a linked RKA, or even a Side Effect of the power.   
 
A solid sheet of flame is most likely a Force Wall.  You'd probably want 
to make it Opaque to the Sight Group, and possibly Transparent to physical 
attacks.  Add in limitations like "Not in heavy rains/wet areas" and 
you're ready to go. 
 
At times, this sort of creative thought requires some 'sideways' thinking. 
Case in point, my write-up of Chow Yun Fat (cinematic version).  Anyone 
familiar with John Woo's films knows that the gunfights often feature lots 
of guys leaping around while blazing away with a pistol (or other gun) in 
each hand.  Realists will tell you that that is frankly impossible; well, 
this is Hero System, not the real world, so who cares? 
 
Anyway, this whole "Both Guns Blazing (tm) schtick is one of those that 
can be written up in an almost countless number of ways.  If you want to 
fire your guns *really* fast, buy more Speed.  Or, buy such things as 
Autofire for your 1d6+1 9mm pistol and say the SFX is you are pulling the 
trigger *real* fast.  (Note: John Hinkley emptied the 6 rounds in his .22 
pistol in something like 1.6 seconds.)  Steve Long created a number of 5 
point skill/talents in _Eye For an Eye_ designed to let PCs do all the 
goof (and improbable) gun tricks seen in the flicks.  One of these was Two 
Gun Fighting, which allowed a character to fire two handheld weapons at 
the same time (ie. in the same Phase).  Perfect for Woo flic fans, or 
people trying to recreate Kevin Costner's final gunfight in _Silverado_. 
Then of course, you can start building the gunfighter's multipower. I've 
made two of these, one for Chow Yun Fat, and one for Stephen King's 
Gunslinger.  They are: 
 
Chow Yun Fat 
 
40	Multipower: Requires Weapons of Opportunity (-1/2), Attacks must 
	conform to weapons used (-1/2) 
4	u RKA: up to 2 1/2d6, +1 Stun, 0 END  
3	u RKA: up to 2d6+1, Autofire, Cannot be spread (-1/4), 0 END  
4	u RKA: up to 2d6+1, AOE - Any, Selective, 0 END  
 
Gunslinger: 
 
55	Multipower: Pistols, OIF (there's two) 
4	u RKA: 2d6, +1 Stun, 0 END 
4	u RKA: 2d6, Autofire, Cannot be spread (-1/4), 0 END 
5	u RKA: 2d6, AOE - Any, Selective, 0 END 
3	u TK: 30 STR, Only to perform 'gun' tricks, 0 END 
 
Note such 'tricks' as 0 END on the attacks.  Both of these guys never 
really seem to run out (unless it is an important plot point).  The Area 
of Effect attacks let them shoot multiple people in a small group and the 
Autofire is your typical "empty the clip in an eyeblink" attack.  The guns 
are OIFs, cause if you disarm one, they usually have a second (or snag one 
*real* quick).  Everything else is just SFX. 
 
Granted, there will be some powers that can be very hard to simulate, or 
may require slightly questionable mechanics.  Poisons for example.  Is 
this an NND RKA that does Body (a +2 Advantage) or a Body Drain?  If so, 
can the Drain kill someone?  I've seen both versions written up and have 
arguments both for and against. 
 
PART 2: Building X character (or, Who do you write up X in Champions?) 
 
Adapting any fictional character into gaming trams can be a royal pain in 
the rear.  Odds are, no one will agree with your interpretation.  Drop by 
The Champions Write-up Page 
(http://www.mactyre.net/scm/deejay/champs/writeups.html) and see what I 
mean.  I found three versions of Nightcrawler with point totals of 400 to 
700+ points (and two versions of Colossus and three of the Beast and...). 
Some people will look at the 1600 point Superman and gag, while other will 
say the 233 point Doc Oc is under powered. 
 
Probably the most important thing to remember when adapting a fictional 
characters the sense of scale.  Some things (like STR) are easy.  Did you 
see the character lift anything?  How hard was it?  Other stats, like DEX, 
and SPD become a matter of taste.  If you thing DEX 23 is fine for your 
average brick (like the Thing) then a DEX of 36 to 38 is probably just 
right for Spiderman.  On the other hand, if the Thing has a DEX of 15, 
then Spidey can get by with a 30 to 33 DEX. 
 
Before I go further, I'd like to also point out that when writing up a 
fictional character, one should remember that nothing is set in stone.  I 
could easily write up Superman on 250 points (I think).  Most people would 
laugh, asking how I plan to squeeze super-breath, superhearing, heat 
vision and so on into the character.  I'm not planning on it, I say, I'm 
writing up the 1939 Superman.  His powers?  Leap an 1/8th of a mile, 
hurdle a 20 story building, run faster than a train, lift great weights 
and only a 'bursting shell' can penetrate his skin...  250 points easy. 
 
By this same rational, you can write up 250 point versions of the X-Men. 
Granted, you'll have to axe a lot of powers and tone down the power 
levels, but you should still be able to get the desired results. 
 
Now... when I write up someone, I go all out.  I try and fit in everything 
they are seen to do (or should be able to do) and ignore the point total. 
So far, I've written up 155+ characters with point totals of 24 to 1050 
points.  The average is something like 296. 
 
When writing up characters, I juggle a lot of factors.  Strength, martial 
arts training, the environment, the genre, the effects their powers have 
on their surroundings, the reality level... 
 
STATS: 
Stats are both easy and hard.  STR is the easiest.  I try and see what 
sort of brick stunts really strong people do (whoa!  Sonnet (_Blue 
Sonnet_) just flipped a tank, that's a STR of 50+ easy!).   
 
DEX is tough and I usually base that off of the genre and 'gut' reactions 
(man, there is *no* way I'm *not* giving Bruce Lee a 30 DEX).  Usually, I 
consider such questions as is the 'character faster than everyone else?' 
If so, how fast *is* everyone else?  Once I've established one or two 
people (if I'm working on a series) then everyone else just sort of falls 
into place (Ranma (from _Ranma 1/2_ is the fastest dude around, nuff said. 
Akane is quick, but in the middle of the back.  Ryoga is fast, but slower 
than Ranma.  Mousse is slower than Ranma and Shampoo, but on par with 
Ryoga - and so it goes).   
 
CON, PD, ED and STUN are usually based off of 'how tough is this guy' 'do 
they get knocked out often?'.  (A-ko (_Project A-ko_) is the daughter of 
Superman and Wonder Woman... CON of 25 [hey, she's only 16].) 
 
INT, EGO and PRE are very arbitrary.  The highs and lows are real easy. 
(B-ko (_Project A-ko_) builds mecha overnight and is a engineering genius: 
INT of 26-30.  Elric (Elric of Melinibone) speaks to demons as if they 
were lesser beings: PRE 23+.  Grimjack (_Grimjack_) has seen it all, is 
tough as nails and keeps his mind under tight control: EGO 20.)   
 
COM is one of those 'eye of the behold' things.  Usually 10 is 'average 
Joe', 16 is very pretty (handsome), 20 is major babe (stud) and 24+ is 
hitting the realm of goddesses and Adonis.  As with INT(etc) the highs and 
lows are easy, its the ones in the middle that are hard.  (Hmm... Urd (_Oh 
My Goddess!_) is sexy personified: COM 26.  The Grackleflints (_Mage_) 
have dead white skin, no hair, no ears and no pupils.  Scary, but not 
stomach churning horrific... COM 8.) 
 
SPD is like DEX.  You need to decide on a bench mark.  If the person in 
question is the only 'superhuman' in a world of normals, than a SPD of 4 
or 5 is more than sufficient.  The point has been made that a lot of 
speedsters can get by with interesting FX instead of raw SPD scores. 
Still, you always get people like Battle Angel (SPD 7) who *obviously* out 
do *everyone*... 
 
POWERS: 
As with Stats, this can be both easy and hard.  Easy because you get to 
see what the people are doing.  Hard because you then have to define it... 
 
I usually make a list over everything the character does, with benchmark 
notes.  Energy blast smeared a car, telekinetic shield stopped a tank 
shell, can run fast enough to catch up with a speeding bike, teleported to 
the moon, carries a .357 magnum, wears plate armor, can climb *anything* 
and never falls... 
 
For real world items, its easy, write it up as is.  Most swords, guns and 
armor fit this category.  Fake gear takes a little work.  One way to look 
at it is to compare X to a real world counterpart.  Example: blasters in 
_Star Wars_ kill *everyone*.  You never see some get shot and just be 
wounded, these pistols drop anybody (even stormtroopers in full armor). 
If you use hit locations, a 2d6 RKA can almost pull that off.  To be safe, 
a 3d6 RKA works much better (does 11 BODY on average, normal person has 
10).  3 1/2d6 to 4d6 RKAs work wonders (average of 13 and 14 BODY).  Of 
course, the PCs are now carrying around handguns capable of punching holes 
in modern day APCs... 
 
Martial Arts are another easy category.  Often you can list what the guys 
does.  (Hmm, Wang Chi does a punch, a dodge, a joint lock and a throw... 
scribble, scribble...)  Other times, our 'hero' will announce his skill: 
"That was 20 years ago...  And you've done nothing but study fencing ever 
since?"  For normal people, I don't bother with Damage Classes, I save 
those for the more.. outlandish characters. 
 
True superpowers are usually quite easy.  (Lightning tosses bolts of 
electricity, peace o' cake!)  While some of the more stranger powers can 
get real tough (or *real* expensive.  (Son Goku can teleport *anywhere* in 
the universe.  Uh.. lemme get back to you on that...)  One thing I learned 
was where to draw the line.  (Let me get this straight... Battle Angel 
does 500 mph *in* combat?!!)  Usually, I decide that a particular 
character gets topped off at 'x' level and leave it at that.  (You wanna 
pump him up?  Go right ahead...) 
 
SKILLS: 
A lot of published characters don't have any skills.  I really don't know 
why.  When adapting a fictional character, Skills are easy.  What does the 
person know, do, work with, use?  Rally Vincent (Gunsmith Cats) is a 
gunsmith.  We've got a KS: Guns, PS: Gunsmith, WF: Small Arms and 
Weaponsmith right there (heck, we've even got a Perk if you think about). 
Now, toss in the fact she's a bounty hunter... Streetwise, another PS 
(Bounty Hunter), some more KS's relating to local criminals, another Perk, 
probably a police contact (or a 'fixer') and a AK for her local city 
(which is Chicago)... 
 
Of course, you get characters like the M-66 antipersonnel automatic 
infantry robot, which *isn't* going to have any KS, or PS, or 
Streetwise...  One could give it an AK (geographic database) and after 
seeing the anime it definitely had Acrobatics, Breakfall, Climbing and 
Weaponsmith: Boobytraps... 
 
Personally, I try and load up an adaption with skills.  I figure no one is 
going to complain about someone having too many, right? 
 
DISADVANTAGES: 
These are (usually) a piece of cake.  Most come naturally, especially for 
superheroic characters.  I usually knock the easy ones out first: 
Distinctive Features, Hunteds, DNPCs, Physical Limitations, etc. 
Susceptabilites and Vulnerabilites come next.  I then look over the rest 
of the disads and finish up with Psychological Limitations.  These are the 
disads that *really* define the character, and I try and select ones that 
reflect obvious traits and quirks. 
 
 
When I post a character to the Hero Mailing List, I include a lot of text. 
This is so I can try and describe the character fully to the average 
reader.  I am sure that many people have *never* heard of some of the 
characters I've posted.  I also want to get my rational for why I wrote up 
what I did across so people don't go nuts when they see a 75 STR, or a 33 
DEX or a 35d6 Energy Blast. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:54:35 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Twe weapon Style 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
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At 10:16 AM 11/13/97 -0600, you wrote: 
>Umm.. don't take this the wrong way, but have you bothered to read the  
>FAQ? 
> 
>I'm pretty sure that about 75% of the questions you've asked are already  
>answered there... 
> 
> 
>Todd 
> 
 
 
actually this is the first one 'alone' has asked which is an obvious. .  
the others have been interesting and grounded in role-play instead of 
mechanics. . 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:51:12 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Houston, I think we have a problem... 
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At 10:35 AM 11/14/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook teased me with: 
>Hah!  I'm currently tinkering with the cast of _Mage_, followed by the 
>crew from _Big Trouble in Little China_ and then I'm considering 
>convertion the Watchmen (via some old DC Heroes suppliments). 
> 
Oh.  Man!  Please, please do!  All of that stuff is just what I want right 
now.  Consider it a Christmas present to me. 
Oh, which Mage characters are you doing?  Series 1 (Mirth, Edsel, Kevin, 
Sean, Grackleflints, Red Caps) or Series 2 (Kevin, Kirby, Jo, that odd 
maybe-mage w/ the harpies... <shudder>)? 
There seem to be significant differences in Kev between the two series... 
or perhaps just a better definition of him in the second... 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:56:51 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Shield Multipower 
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At 08:55 AM 11/14/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>This is the writeup as it appears in 'Underworld Enemies' for the 
>character Divine, pg. 57... 
> 
>  30 | Multipower (60 pt pool), OAF (Walking Stick) 
>     | 
>  2u | 2d6 HKA (3d6 w/ STR), 0 END, Ranged (+1/2), Range Based on Str (-1/4), 
>     | 1 Rec. Charge if Fired at Opponent (-1), No KB, OAF (Spring Blade in 
>     |  Walking Stick, -1)  [60/24] 
>     | 
>  1u | +6D6 HTH, 0 END, Ranged (+1/2), Range Based on Str (-1/4), 1 
>     |  Recoverable Charge if THrown (-1), Lockout if Thrown (No other 
>     |   Multipower can be used if Divine throws his Walking Stick at an 
>     |   opponent, -3/4), No KB, OAF (Walking Stick)  [36/8] 
>     |  
>  1m | Missile Deflection vs. Thrown Objects and Projectiles, OAF (Walking 
>     |  Stick)  [10/5] 
>     | 
> 
I still don't see why Missle Deflection is a Multi slot...  but, basically, 
you could "set" the cane to either do the Ranged HKA *or* both of the other 
slots.  That way, you his someone in HTH, and you could still Abort to 
Missle Deflect before your next Phase...  And you couldn't missle deflect if 
you were using the RHKA. 
 
Same thing with the shield, and (since the Lockout is semi-official, since 
it was published) I'd go with the -3/4 Lim, as stated.  I still suggest a 
look at the Captain America write-up on the DeeJay's Write-up Page... 
 
Basically, you could toss the HA, EB and Missle Deflect into an MP.  Then, 
put some regular DCV levels, and then levels to hit (w/ HA), Block, and 
Missle Deflect (5 pt. levels).  These would be outside the MP, and would be 
based on the actual size of the shield...  any extras would just be skill of 
the user. 
 
I have agreed with Rat's assertion that Shields give base DCV bonuses... 
this is like D&D, but (more importantly to me, anyway) is better described 
as Passive Defense in GURPS.  The Shield can also be used as an Active 
Defense (GURPS, again), in which case it adds a certain level to Block rolls... 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:01:42 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Shield Multipower 
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Apologizing for responding to my self, but: 
>Same thing with the shield, and (since the Lockout is semi-official, since 
it was published) I'd go with the -3/4 Lim, as stated.  I still suggest a 
look at the Captain America write-up on the DeeJay's Write-up Page... 
> 
>Basically, you could toss the HA, EB and Missle Deflect into an MP.  Then, 
put some regular DCV levels, and then levels to hit (w/ HA), Block, and 
Missle Deflect (5 pt. levels).  These would be outside the MP, and would be 
based on the actual size of the shield...  any extras would just be skill of 
the user. 
> 
>I have agreed with Rat's assertion that Shields give base DCV bonuses... 
this is like D&D, but (more importantly to me, anyway) is better described 
as Passive Defense in GURPS.  The Shield can also be used as an Active 
Defense (GURPS, again), in which case it adds a certain level to Block rolls... 
> 
It was after I sent this that I remembered that Armor (or just extra PD) 
bought through the Shield might be needed after all...  Only v. Move 
Throughs.  I have a character very similar to the Amalgam SuperSoldier, who 
has the Shield and can also fly...  w/o the extra PD (Only v. Move 
Throughs/Bys), he gets creamed by his own attacks, even with the Shield in 
front of him.    : ( 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:09:54 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: BTILC 
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At 01:00 PM 11/14/97 -0500, John Prins wrote: 
>Coolness! Don't forget that Jack Burton has Missile Deflection vs. Thrown, 
>even before the 'magic potion'. Though I really wonder what that magic 
>potion does - 
> 
>"See things no one else can see, do things no one else can do!" 
<interesting bits of mechanics snipped> 
The only thing my humble mind ever came up with for that (and it was when I 
was playing GURPS, but it still works in Hero), was to have the characters 
drink it...  and get 50 or so extra temporary points.  I really wouldn't 
know how to do this game mechanics-wise, but the abilities didn't seem to be 
uniform throughout all those involved in the fight...  Jack wasn't using 
Wire-Fu, and didn't seem much smarter, either...  I figured he tossed all 
his points into Gun skills (a little unwisely, actually).  But that was just 
'cause the player overestimated their usefulness... 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 06:00:44 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Essay: How do I? (long!) 
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At 11:45 PM 11/13/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>Well, I kinda wnet a little crazy and wrote 7 pages of hints and 
>suggestions on how to write up fictional characters and odd powers.  If 
>anyone has any other tips and suggestions, send him to me, I think this 
>would be a cool Herozine (or Haymaker?) article (it's going on my website 
>at least...) 
 
   Don't stop at HeroZine or Haymaker; maybe this should go to Digital 
Hero!   :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 06:11:45 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Houston, I think we have a problem... 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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At 07:38 PM 11/13/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>>    You can usually tell when the traffic is naturally low because Michael 
>> Surbrook posts characters. 
> 
>Now Bob has got me sitting here scrathing my head wondering if this is a 
>good thing or a bad thing... 
 
   I usually count it as a good thing.  I never make use of any of the 
characters you post (partially because your heroes are from anime and I 
enjoy TV heroes more), but I'm always interested in seeing what you're up to. 
 
>BTW: I posted some adaptions of characters from Dominion... did anyone 
>actually see them?  I was expecting to see a little talk about Bonaparte 
>the Tank at least, consider all the TUSV posts... 
 
   I did get them, but Bonaparte flew right past me (mentally) on the way 
through.  I'll go see if I still have that archived, and if I have any 
comments. 
 
>(of course, I was also expecting to see someone go ballistic over Tetsuo 
>at 1050 points too...) 
 
   Don't feel too badly.  I adapted the Devourer of Worlds from Robot 
Warriors for TUSV, and the point total there is 1297. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 06:11:45 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Houston, I think we have a problem... 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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At 07:38 PM 11/13/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>>    You can usually tell when the traffic is naturally low because Michael 
>> Surbrook posts characters. 
> 
>Now Bob has got me sitting here scrathing my head wondering if this is a 
>good thing or a bad thing... 
 
   I usually count it as a good thing.  I never make use of any of the 
characters you post (partially because your heroes are from anime and I 
enjoy TV heroes more), but I'm always interested in seeing what you're up to. 
 
>BTW: I posted some adaptions of characters from Dominion... did anyone 
>actually see them?  I was expecting to see a little talk about Bonaparte 
>the Tank at least, consider all the TUSV posts... 
 
   I did get them, but Bonaparte flew right past me (mentally) on the way 
through.  I'll go see if I still have that archived, and if I have any 
comments. 
 
>(of course, I was also expecting to see someone go ballistic over Tetsuo 
>at 1050 points too...) 
 
   Don't feel too badly.  I adapted the Devourer of Worlds from Robot 
Warriors for TUSV, and the point total there is 1297. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 06:16:56 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Shield Multipower 
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At 10:45 PM 11/13/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
> Flipping through the only Champions supplement I have, I found 
>something that was built into a Mulitpower. 
> It's for a cane with a number of combat abilities, locked into 
>with a ultra slot HKA for a spring loaded blade, a m slot for 
>Missile Def. vs. Thrown Objects and Projectiles, and another 
>ultra slot, HTH, Ranged, Range Based on STR, 1 Recoverable charge if 
>thrown, Lockout if Thrown (No other Multipower slot can be used if 
>'X' throws his cane at an opponent, -3/4). 
> I assume you could do the same with a Multipower shield. 
 
   I don't see why not.  A character who had been going to be a part of the 
Justifiers campaign (but ended up not, as the player had to cancel out) had 
just such a thing with HA (shield as a club), EB (thrown shield, with 
Lockout), Missile Deflection, DCV Skill Levels, Skill Levels w/Block, and 
Armor (with Activation) as the slots.  (There may have been one or two 
others, but I can't recall them.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:51:16 +0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Shield Multipower 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 11:45 AM 11/14/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>On Friday, November 14, 1997 9:23 AM, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>>Apologizing for responding to my self, but: 
><snip> 
>>It was after I sent this that I remembered that Armor (or just extra 
>PD) 
>>bought through the Shield might be needed after all...  Only v. Move 
>>Throughs.  I have a character very similar to the Amalgam 
>SuperSoldier, who 
>>has the Shield and can also fly...  w/o the extra PD (Only v. Move 
>>Throughs/Bys), he gets creamed by his own attacks, even with the 
>Shield in 
>>front of him.    : ( 
> 
> 
>I was about to mention things like this, when I saw your post. 
> 
>The thing I remembered that made me consider what else was needed was 
>a scene in the Marvel Secret Wars. The Torch was caught in the grip of 
>Ultron, and Captain America told him to let loose with a nova blast. 
>The Torch complied, and Cap hid behind his shield, thus saving 
>himself. (Something inside Ultron melted; he was closer to the center 
>than Cap.) 
> 
>You need PD and ED to simulate taking less damage from explosions. 
>Also, a straight DCV bonus creates other problems- what about attacks 
>from behind? Sure, you can declare that Mr. Shield is so good that it 
>doesn't matter, but suppose he is surpassed out of combat, or even in 
>combat? 
> 
>A DCV bonus is a start, but it isn't the end of the matter. 
> 
I guess I'll point again to the Captain America write-up... 
          www.mactyre.net/scm/deejay/champs/writeups.html 
Goto the Avengers Link, and then pick Cap...  it was written by Sam Bell. 
Seems to cover all the bases, but it cost 191 points... 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:11:37 -0200 (EDT) 
From: Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria <gevaerd@laranjeiras.lci.ufrj.br> 
Subject: Moveable Force Wall 
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  What advantages/limitations would you give to a Force Wall that move 
with his creator but also can only be created so that its creator is its 
center ? 
  And what more if its size and form is fixed ? 
 
			[]s. 
 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:21:26 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Essay: How do I? (long!) 
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On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
> At 11:45 PM 11/13/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
> Nice essay, but all good things can be nitpicked. :] 
 
<shrug>  It was written very on-the-fly and I had to cut myself short 
before I generated 200+ pages of babble. 
  
> >The trick here was to look at the part about rendering the target 
> >incapable of moving.  This could be an Entangle, except the all or nothing 
> >mechanics of Entangle (and the ability to slowly break free) didn't fit. 
> >The effect sounded (to me) more like a grab.  Hiram (in effect) Grabs his 
> >target and holds it still.  And what power would let me Grab someone at 
> >range?  Telekinesis.  After that, things got easy.  The causing injury 
> >part could be handled by linking different attack powers to the TK Grab. 
>  
> Unless I missed some special exception rule in the book regarding TK, I'd 
> say this would be a redundant step -- Grabs already do damage if you want 
> them to, and I'd hazard the opinion that the damage of Hiram's crushing 
> gravity should be directly linked to its ability to keep you from moving -- 
> which it automagically is taken from the TK's 1d6/5 STR. :] 
 
Except the TK is "Affects all parts of target" which lets one Grab and 
pull, but not crush or punch. 
  
> I'd add to this my personal rule of thumb for matching effects to Powers, 
> the First Sentence Theorem: the rules are written so that the first sentence 
> of any Power, Skill, Talent, etc. entry is a capsule summary of its purpose. 
> When you're stuck in a tight spot between powers, check the first sentence 
> and ask yourself if what you're trying to model coincides with what you're 
> thinking of modeling it as.  This avoids a lot of the "interesting" 
> constructions (as a certain HERO author calls them -- my group calls them 
> "cheats" :]) like Invisibility qua infinite Mental Defense. 
 
Aha!  I forgot this rule!  Vox, thanks for posting this.  I do consider 
this to be a very important rule of thumb. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:30:34 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Moveable Force Wall 
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On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria wrote: 
 
>   What advantages/limitations would you give to a Force Wall that move 
> with his creator but also can only be created so that its creator is its 
> center ? 
 
I believe that Force Walls can be moved as a default part of the power. 
They can't push people around however.  (Use linked TK.)  The No Range 
limitation should cover Force Walls that can only be centered on the 
caster. 
 
>   And what more if its size and form is fixed ? 
 
I'd use the Limited Coverage Disads from the Vehicle Creation rules. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:35:23 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Houston, I think we have a problem... 
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On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> >>    You can usually tell when the traffic is naturally low because Michael 
> >> Surbrook posts characters. 
> > 
> >Now Bob has got me sitting here scrathing my head wondering if this is a 
> >good thing or a bad thing... 
>  
>    I usually count it as a good thing.  I never make use of any of the 
> characters you post (partially because your heroes are from anime and I 
> enjoy TV heroes more), but I'm always interested in seeing what you're up to. 
 
Hah!  I'm currently tinkering with the cast of _Mage_, followed by the 
crew from _Big Trouble in Little China_ and then I'm considering 
convertion the Watchmen (via some old DC Heroes suppliments). 
 
Besides, I don't watch TV. 
  
> >BTW: I posted some adaptions of characters from Dominion... did anyone 
> >actually see them?  I was expecting to see a little talk about Bonaparte 
> >the Tank at least, consider all the TUSV posts... 
>  
>    I did get them, but Bonaparte flew right past me (mentally) on the way 
> through.  I'll go see if I still have that archived, and if I have any 
> comments. 
 
Just wondering. You know, I think the TUSV needs some better vehicle 
combat and hit location charts. 
 
> >(of course, I was also expecting to see someone go ballistic over Tetsuo 
> >at 1050 points too...) 
>  
>    Don't feel too badly.  I adapted the Devourer of Worlds from Robot 
> Warriors for TUSV, and the point total there is 1297. 
 
Whew... never mind. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:36:00 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Essay: How do I? (long!) 
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On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> At 11:45 PM 11/13/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
> >Well, I kinda wnet a little crazy and wrote 7 pages of hints and 
> >suggestions on how to write up fictional characters and odd powers.  If 
> >anyone has any other tips and suggestions, send him to me, I think this 
> >would be a cool Herozine (or Haymaker?) article (it's going on my website 
> >at least...) 
>  
>    Don't stop at HeroZine or Haymaker; maybe this should go to Digital 
> Hero!   :-] 
 
Now there's a thought! 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:09:53 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Avalon's Daughter 
X-VMS-To: RAVANOS, IN%"champ-l@omg.org" 
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	Celestina, Avalon's daughter, was a golem made by Merlin, 
eventually granted a life of flesh and blood. 
	She is effectively totally human (aside from her great 
martial skills and heartiness, of course); the only exception is 
when she 'dies.'  She turns back to a steel statue.  If she is 
rushed to her 'father,' Merlin, in time she can be revived, otherwise, 
she's in perpetual statue stasis. 
 
	How would you reprsent this stasis?  What about her form in this 
stasis?  Anyone want to take a shot and throw some stats at me? 
 
	Her brother, Matthew, is also made of steel.  However, he was not 
so lucky, and is still made of metal.  This works to his advantage 
(Resistant Damage Reduction, Stun Only, Not vs. Magnetic attacks; 
 Armor, Density Increase, HA (metal fists).  Aside from looking like 
a metallic human sized statue, he also hurts people who hit him, 
due to his ultra-neat-o hard/dense hide. 
	How would you represent this? 
	Like his sister, he also goes into 'statue stasis.'  However, his 
change is gradual whenever he 'bleeds' (that would be magical energy leaking 
out of his body...  "magic sword... through body... precious magical energy... 
leaking out...  limbs stiffening... uggh...").  How would you represent this? 
How much do you think a solid steel man would weigh?  What about his 
Armor, Defenses, and BODY?  Hmmmm? 
 
	And, of course, there's the Avalonian Ninja Attack Death Squad Z. 
(...more on that later). 
							-Jason 
	*	*	*	*	*	*	*	*	* 
	*	*	*	*		*	*	*	* 
					* 
 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:18:41 -0800 
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger) 
Subject: Re[2]: Houston, I think we have a problem... 
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part 
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     Michael Surbrook wrote: 
      
     Hah!  I'm currently tinkering with the cast of _Mage_, followed by the  
     crew from _Big Trouble in Little China_ and then I'm considering  
     convertion the Watchmen (via some old DC Heroes suppliments). 
      
     </quote> 
      
     When you do Mage, are you just going to do characters from Book 1 
     like Edsel and Mirth, or are you going to try and do Joe Phat and  
     Kirby Hero as well? 
      
     Richard 
 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:41:01 -0200 (EDT) 
From: Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria <gevaerd@laranjeiras.lci.ufrj.br> 
Subject: Marvel Write-ups 
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   I have made many writeups of Marvel Superheroes, based on the 
descriptions given on Marvel Superheroes RPG. I don't know if it is of 
interest of the list to receive them (also there is many of them on the 
internet, written by other people), but I could send them (not 
instantly... they are not written on PC yet) to the list or to whom want 
it... or maybe just some specific heroes. I don't know what is the best 
for you... well... I could do what you decide. 
 
                             []s. 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Re: Avalon's Daughter 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:47:30 -0500 
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>when she 'dies.'  She turns back to a steel statue.  If she is 
>rushed to her 'father,' Merlin, in time she can be revived,  
>otherwise, she's in perpetual statue stasis. 
>How would you represent this stasis?  What about her form in this 
>stasis?  Anyone want to take a shot and throw some stats at me? 
 
This sounds like a good use of Aid to Body (and maybe DEF) triggered by 
going to -10 Body, 1 Charge (must be reset by Merlin), 0 DCV, Gestures 
throughout (standing perfectly still). Or replace DCV & Gestures with 
full side effect. 
 
>he also hurts people who hit him, 
>due to his ultra-neat-o hard/dense hide. 
>How would you represent this? 
 
I've done this with: 
3d6 EB, NND (defense is doing knockback to him), Damage Shield, -1/2 
Stun on NND equals Body rolled on the punch against him. 
 
>Like his sister, he also goes into 'statue stasis.'   
>How would you represent this? 
 
Normal loss of stun and going unconscious... 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Twe weapon Style 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Date: 14 Nov 1997 12:55:14 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes: 
 
JD> Actually, the only thing I found in the FAQ about this was the 
JD> all-so-helpful statement that you can only make one attack action per 
JD> Phase. 
 
The reason for that is the FAQ is not a sourcebook, it is a list of 
official or close to official answers to common qestions.  "How does one 
make more than one attack per action phase?"  You do not.  Anything beyond 
that is a house rule for a particular campaign. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:57:53 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: TUSV: Bibliography 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
   Maybe some of you folks on the list will know better than me... 
   How well would the "Planet of the Apes" moves and TV series fit in the 
index for TUSV?  I remember for sure that there were wagons and such 
(pretty standard far as these things go), but I'm trying to recall if there 
were any horse-drawn tanks or contraptions like that. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:00:08 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: BTILC 
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X-UID: 28 
 
>Hah!  I'm currently tinkering with the cast of _Mage_, followed by the 
>crew from _Big Trouble in Little China_ and then I'm considering 
 
Coolness! Don't forget that Jack Burton has Missile Deflection vs. Thrown, 
even before the 'magic potion'. Though I really wonder what that magic 
potion does - 
 
"See things no one else can see, do things no one else can do!" 
 
I was thinking maybe a whole bunch of little Aids (STR, DEX, CON, PRE, END, 
STUN, REC, Running), a UBO Sense Magic (so you could see invisible magic 
critters and the like), and a couple of UBO Overall Levels. Like this: 
 
1D6 Aid to STR,DEX,CON,PRE,END,STUN,REC,Running, All at once (+2), 0 END 
(+1/2), Fade Rate: 5 CP per 5 Hours (+1), OAF Magic Potion (-1), Gestures 
(must drink, -1/4), 8 Charges (-1/2) [22.5/8] 
PLUS 
Detect Magic, Sense, Ranged, UBO: Self and 8 Others at Range (+1 3/4), OAF 
Magic Potion (-1), Gestures (must drink, -1/4) [27.5/12] 
PLUS 
+2 Overall Levels, UBO: Self and 8 Others at Range (+1 3/4), OAF Magic 
Potion (-1), Gestures (must drink) [55/24] 
 
That's 44 real points, but really spiff for assaulting Lo Pan's underground 
sanctuary. 
 
Then there's the Six Demon Bag "Wind, Fire, Thunder, all that good stuff!" 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:00:11 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Avalon's Daughter 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>	Celestina, Avalon's daughter, was a golem made by Merlin, 
>eventually granted a life of flesh and blood. 
>	She is effectively totally human (aside from her great 
>martial skills and heartiness, of course); the only exception is 
>when she 'dies.'  She turns back to a steel statue.  If she is 
>rushed to her 'father,' Merlin, in time she can be revived, otherwise, 
>she's in perpetual statue stasis. 
> 
>	How would you reprsent this stasis?  What about her form in this 
>stasis?  Anyone want to take a shot and throw some stats at me? 
 
This I'd model as a Triggered Transform, BUT it would be paid for by Merlin, 
not Celestina. It's basically a 'save your butt from bleeding' spell by 
having a large 'all or nothing' transform triggered by falling below zero 
BODY. Of course, like most transforms, it will eventually wear off, so 
getting the body to Merlin in a timely fashion is necessary. 
 
>	Her brother, Matthew, is also made of steel.  However, he was not 
>so lucky, and is still made of metal.  This works to his advantage 
>(Resistant Damage Reduction, Stun Only, Not vs. Magnetic attacks; 
> Armor, Density Increase, HA (metal fists).  Aside from looking like 
>a metallic human sized statue, he also hurts people who hit him, 
>due to his ultra-neat-o hard/dense hide. 
>	How would you represent this? 
 
Damage shield. Only vs. Impact Attacks. 
 
>	Like his sister, he also goes into 'statue stasis.'  However, his 
>change is gradual whenever he 'bleeds' (that would be magical energy leaking 
>out of his body...  "magic sword... through body... precious magical energy... 
>leaking out...  limbs stiffening... uggh...").  How would you represent this? 
 
SFX. 
 
>How much do you think a solid steel man would weigh?  What about his 
>Armor, Defenses, and BODY?  Hmmmm? 
 
Pick up a chemistry book. Compare the density of iron (steel is mostly iron) 
and water (human beings are mostly water). 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:11:24 -0200 (EDT) 
From: Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria <gevaerd@laranjeiras.lci.ufrj.br> 
Subject: Re: Avalon's Daughter Brother 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
> 	Her brother, Matthew, is also made of steel.  However, he was not 
> so lucky, and is still made of metal.  This works to his advantage 
> (Resistant Damage Reduction, Stun Only, Not vs. Magnetic attacks; 
>  Armor, Density Increase, HA (metal fists).  Aside from looking like 
> a metallic human sized statue, he also hurts people who hit him, 
> due to his ultra-neat-o hard/dense hide. 
> 	How would you represent this? 
 
     EB Xd6, I would put X = his PD 
         Damage Shield (+1/2) 
         Only up to Damage the Attacker rolled (-1/2) 
            (if he is hit not so strong, the attacker will not suffer so 
much) 
         Only if is hit with bare hands (or feet or tail or etc :)) (-1) 
         Energy Blast is for Damage Shield Only (-1) 
         0 END (+1/2) 
         Persistent (+1/2) 
         Always On (-1/2)? not sure I would put always on... I can't see 
any disvantage in it being always on right now. 
 
 
			[]s. 
 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:21:32 -0500 
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org> 
Subject: BTILC 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>> even before the 'magic potion'. Though I really wonder what that magic 
>> potion does - 
 
Transform Normal into Wild Martial Arts version of that normal. :-) 
 
Geoff Speare 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Screaming Really Loud 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:23:39 -0500 (EST) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
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I'm trying to figure out how to implement two fairly minor powers 
in an affordable way. 
 
1.  Being able to scream really loud: loud enough to be heard from 
miles around.  Does no damage, just loud.  (and obnoxious, I guess) 
 
2.  Generating a light, like a lantern.  Just a light, nothing special. 
 
Any ideas how to build these powers _cheaply_? 
 
-Eric 
 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:32:15 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Screaming Really Loud 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Eric Burns writes: 
> I'm trying to figure out how to implement two fairly minor powers 
> in an affordable way. 
>  
> 1.  Being able to scream really loud: loud enough to be heard from 
> miles around.  Does no damage, just loud.  (and obnoxious, I guess) 
>  
> 2.  Generating a light, like a lantern.  Just a light, nothing special. 
>  
> Any ideas how to build these powers _cheaply_? 
 
Depends on your definition of cheap.  Power 1 can be done with images vs sound 
(about 40 points), power 2 can be done with change environment (depends on the 
area).  Either one is fairly cheap as an ultra slot in a multipower, but rather 
expensive by itself. 
 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:01:02 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: BTILC 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
> >Hah!  I'm currently tinkering with the cast of _Mage_, followed by the 
> >crew from _Big Trouble in Little China_ and then I'm considering 
>  
> Coolness! Don't forget that Jack Burton has Missile Deflection vs. Thrown, 
> even before the 'magic potion'. Though I really wonder what that magic 
> potion does - 
>  
> "See things no one else can see, do things no one else can do!" 
 
Big Trouble is one of my all time favorite movies. My college roommate and 
I used to see it weekly at a second-run movie house for months. 
 
I'd say mainly what Jack Burton has is PRE. He thinks he's a hero, so 
other people do, too.  
 
I'd probably give him Lightning Reflexes rather than a high DEX ("It's all 
in the reflexes.") Maybe a familiarity with Disguise (Or is it an Everyman 
skill?), Luck and Unluck, and a big psych lim for Overconfidence. 
 
 
Has anyone written up Snake Pliskin? I seem to recall seeing a version 
once, but I'm not sure.  
 
X-Sender: rsimpson@svlhome1.beasys.com 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:20:15 +0000 
From: Bob Simpson <rsimpson@beasys.com> 
Subject: Re: Heroic characters paying for weaponry? 
Cc: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net&> Scooter <scott.ruggels@3do.com&> 
        Collie <collie@netcom.com&> Dave Bowers <inquisitor@macconnect.com> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>On Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:45:20 -0800, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote: 
>>  Do any GMs make their heroic-level characters pay for any weaponry or  
>>  equipment that they might carry?  
 
At 21:46 14 11 97, John Desmarais wrote: 
>I heroic level games I have never had characters pay points for any equipment which  
>would be normally available for purchase, 
 
We used to call this the "Sears" effect.  If the players could find it in a 'general merchandise' catalog, and their character could plausibly afford it, they could acquire it 'in game' for no points. 
 
I also made special allowances for characters with "too much" money, but they still had to show me catalogs where the items were available for purchase by the general public.  This also allowed me to build up quite a collection of information on esoteric equipment. 
 
There really weren't many problems with the characters carrying 'normal' guns and wearing kevlar -- their powers were "Far Beyond Those of Mortals..." to start with. 
 
-- Bob Simpson 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Avalon's Daughter 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:38:01 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Friday, November 14, 1997 9:17 AM, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
 
> 
>>he also hurts people who hit him, 
>>due to his ultra-neat-o hard/dense hide. 
>>How would you represent this? 
> 
>I've done this with: 
>3d6 EB, NND (defense is doing knockback to him), Damage Shield, -1/2 
>Stun on NND equals Body rolled on the punch against him. 
 
I definitely wouldn't make it NND. Consider: If you created two 
characters with 30 PD, Resistant, and one was a brick and the other an 
energy projector, the brick could hit the metal man without hurting 
himself, but the energy projector (whose punch is too weak to do 
knockback) couldn't, even though his skin is far tougher than steel. 
 
I'd make it a normal Damage Shield. Anyone whose defenses are so tough 
that they take no damage from the damage shield is so tough that they 
wouldn't hurt their hands on his hard skin. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Shield Multipower 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:45:54 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Friday, November 14, 1997 9:23 AM, Jerehmiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
 
>Apologizing for responding to my self, but: 
<snip> 
>It was after I sent this that I remembered that Armor (or just extra 
PD) 
>bought through the Shield might be needed after all...  Only v. Move 
>Throughs.  I have a character very similar to the Amalgam 
SuperSoldier, who 
>has the Shield and can also fly...  w/o the extra PD (Only v. Move 
>Throughs/Bys), he gets creamed by his own attacks, even with the 
Shield in 
>front of him.    : ( 
 
 
I was about to mention things like this, when I saw your post. 
 
The thing I remembered that made me consider what else was needed was 
a scene in the Marvel Secret Wars. The Torch was caught in the grip of 
Ultron, and Captain America told him to let loose with a nova blast. 
The Torch complied, and Cap hid behind his shield, thus saving 
himself. (Something inside Ultron melted; he was closer to the center 
than Cap.) 
 
You need PD and ED to simulate taking less damage from explosions. 
Also, a straight DCV bonus creates other problems- what about attacks 
from behind? Sure, you can declare that Mr. Shield is so good that it 
doesn't matter, but suppose he is surpassed out of combat, or even in 
combat? 
 
A DCV bonus is a start, but it isn't the end of the matter. 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Screaming Really Loud 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 14 Nov 1997 15:02:25 -0500 
Lines: 28 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "EB" == Eric Burns <burns@usmcug.usm.maine.edu> writes: 
 
EB> 1.  Being able to scream really loud: loud enough to be heard from 
EB> miles around.  Does no damage, just loud.  (and obnoxious, I guess) 
 
Change Environment, with a big area. 
 
EB> 2.  Generating a light, like a lantern.  Just a light, nothing special. 
 
Ditto, but with a smaller area. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Re: Avalon's Daughter 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:10:09 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I said: 
>>I've done this with: 
>>3d6 EB, NND (defense is doing knockback to him), Damage Shield,  
>>-1/2 Stun on NND equals Body rolled on the punch against him. 
 
Filksinger replied: 
>I definitely wouldn't make it NND. [...] 
>I'd make it a normal Damage Shield. Anyone whose defenses are so  
>tough that they take no damage from the damage shield is so tough  
>that they wouldn't hurt their hands on his hard skin. 
 
I made it NND because I wanted just a little bit of stun to leak 
through, like a penetrating attack. 
 
The reason that even a brick would get hurt is that he's attacking 
himself with his own strength. In my opinion, bricks would be hurt even 
more if they slammed into something super-hard that didn't budge. 
 
Granted, this might be more appropriate for something a lot harder than 
this steel statue man... 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:33:25 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: BTILC 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> Has anyone written up Snake Pliskin? I seem to recall seeing a version 
> once, but I'm not sure. 
 
 
	"Snake Pliskin?  I thought you were dead."  [wham] 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Re: Shield Multipower 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:44:39 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Something else that might be needed is a one-hex front-only force wall. 
There've been many times when Cap and someone else have crouched behind 
the shield together. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:51:22 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: BTILC 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>> >Hah!  I'm currently tinkering with the cast of _Mage_, followed by the 
>> >crew from _Big Trouble in Little China_ and then I'm considering 
>>  
>> Coolness! Don't forget that Jack Burton has Missile Deflection vs. Thrown, 
>> even before the 'magic potion'. Though I really wonder what that magic 
>> potion does - 
>>  
>> "See things no one else can see, do things no one else can do!" 
> 
>Big Trouble is one of my all time favorite movies. My college roommate and 
>I used to see it weekly at a second-run movie house for months. 
 
Amen. I own my own copy! Saw the film when it came out! Brilliant stuff! 
 
>I'd say mainly what Jack Burton has is PRE. He thinks he's a hero, so 
>other people do, too.  
 
Well, he _completely_ blows his PRE attack on Thunder and Lo Pan right at 
the end. 
 
"You again? Thunder, kill him! For me!" 
"Won't work, Dave. People are dropping like flies around here and where's it 
getting us? Nowhere. Fast. Yep, you know what Jack Burton always says at 
times like this..." 
"Who?" 
"Jack Burton. Me!" 
 
>I'd probably give him Lightning Reflexes rather than a high DEX ("It's all 
>in the reflexes.") Maybe a familiarity with Disguise (Or is it an Everyman 
>skill?), Luck and Unluck, and a big psych lim for Overconfidence. 
 
Like I said, Missile Deflection vs Thrown. The potion gives him Reflection 
as well, I guess (that's where most of the points went, I guess, if you just 
assume the potion is a temporary CP bonus). 
 
 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:12:54 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Houston, I think we have a problem... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
> At 10:35 AM 11/14/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook teased me with: 
> >Hah!  I'm currently tinkering with the cast of _Mage_, followed by the 
> >crew from _Big Trouble in Little China_ and then I'm considering 
> >convertion the Watchmen (via some old DC Heroes suppliments). 
> > 
> Oh.  Man!  Please, please do!  All of that stuff is just what I want right 
> now.  Consider it a Christmas present to me. 
> Oh, which Mage characters are you doing?  Series 1 (Mirth, Edsel, Kevin, 
> Sean, Grackleflints, Red Caps) or Series 2 (Kevin, Kirby, Jo, that odd 
> maybe-mage w/ the harpies... <shudder>)? 
 
I'm sticking with Mage I.  The full cast will be: 
Kevin, Mirth, Sean Knight Edsel, all 5 Grackleflint brothers, a redcap, 
a Leanhaun Sidhe, Gog Magog and Crom Cruich - the Worm of the Mists.  Hmm, 
perhaps I should add the Marhault Ogre as well...? 
 
> There seem to be significant differences in Kev between the two series... 
> or perhaps just a better definition of him in the second... 
 
Agreed.  A lot of my benchmark measurements don't seem to apply anymore in 
Mage II.  There is also a lot of new info that would really rewrite the 
character.  I'll probably do the Mage II cast after the series is over and 
I have all 15 (or what ever) issues to wirk with. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:13:32 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Houston, I think we have a problem... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote: 
 
>      Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>       
>      Hah!  I'm currently tinkering with the cast of _Mage_, followed by the  
>      crew from _Big Trouble in Little China_ and then I'm considering  
>      convertion the Watchmen (via some old DC Heroes suppliments). 
>       
>      </quote> 
>       
>      When you do Mage, are you just going to do characters from Book 1 
>      like Edsel and Mirth, or are you going to try and do Joe Phat and  
>      Kirby Hero as well? 
 
At the moment, Mage I. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:18:48 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: BTILC 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
> >Hah!  I'm currently tinkering with the cast of _Mage_, followed by the 
> >crew from _Big Trouble in Little China_ and then I'm considering 
>  
> Coolness! Don't forget that Jack Burton has Missile Deflection vs. Thrown, 
> even before the 'magic potion'. Though I really wonder what that magic 
> potion does - 
 
I'd call catching a bottle out of the air (from the opening of the movie) 
Missle Deflection. 
 
> "See things no one else can see, do things no one else can do!" 
>  
> I was thinking maybe a whole bunch of little Aids (STR, DEX, CON, PRE, END, 
> STUN, REC, Running), a UBO Sense Magic (so you could see invisible magic 
> critters and the like), and a couple of UBO Overall Levels. Like this: 
 
<example snipped>   
 
Heh.   Damn John, I think you just wrote the power up for me. 
 
I like what someone called it:  "That's a AD&D Superheroism potion! 
 
> Then there's the Six Demon Bag "Wind, Fire, Thunder, all that good stuff!" 
 
That's easy.  Look at all the magic rockets and grenades he pulls out of 
that bag.  
 
BTW: Is it just me, or is BTILC the perfect movie to explain Hero System 
powers to people? 
 
"See, that's an energy blast with the gesture's limitation!" 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
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*************************************************************************** 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:24:18 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Essay: How do I? (long!) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:21 AM 11/14/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
> 
>> At 11:45 PM 11/13/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>> Nice essay, but all good things can be nitpicked. :] 
> 
><shrug>  It was written very on-the-fly and I had to cut myself short 
>before I generated 200+ pages of babble. 
 
   So instead of babbling on two hundred pages, you decided to just (pause)... 
   ...Babble On Five. 
   (Sorry.) 
 
>> >The trick here was to look at the part about rendering the target 
>> >incapable of moving.  This could be an Entangle, except the all or nothing 
>> >mechanics of Entangle (and the ability to slowly break free) didn't fit. 
>> >The effect sounded (to me) more like a grab.  Hiram (in effect) Grabs his 
>> >target and holds it still.  And what power would let me Grab someone at 
>> >range?  Telekinesis.  After that, things got easy.  The causing injury 
>> >part could be handled by linking different attack powers to the TK Grab. 
>>  
>> Unless I missed some special exception rule in the book regarding TK, I'd 
>> say this would be a redundant step -- Grabs already do damage if you want 
>> them to, and I'd hazard the opinion that the damage of Hiram's crushing 
>> gravity should be directly linked to its ability to keep you from moving -- 
>> which it automagically is taken from the TK's 1d6/5 STR. :] 
> 
>Except the TK is "Affects all parts of target" which lets one Grab and 
>pull, but not crush or punch. 
 
   But this is a specific Limitation, isn't it?  Normal TK can squeeze and 
punch, at least according to the BBB I have. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:24:18 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Essay: How do I? (long!) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:21 AM 11/14/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
> 
>> At 11:45 PM 11/13/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>> Nice essay, but all good things can be nitpicked. :] 
> 
><shrug>  It was written very on-the-fly and I had to cut myself short 
>before I generated 200+ pages of babble. 
 
   So instead of babbling on two hundred pages, you decided to just (pause)... 
   ...Babble On Five. 
   (Sorry.) 
 
>> >The trick here was to look at the part about rendering the target 
>> >incapable of moving.  This could be an Entangle, except the all or nothing 
>> >mechanics of Entangle (and the ability to slowly break free) didn't fit. 
>> >The effect sounded (to me) more like a grab.  Hiram (in effect) Grabs his 
>> >target and holds it still.  And what power would let me Grab someone at 
>> >range?  Telekinesis.  After that, things got easy.  The causing injury 
>> >part could be handled by linking different attack powers to the TK Grab. 
>>  
>> Unless I missed some special exception rule in the book regarding TK, I'd 
>> say this would be a redundant step -- Grabs already do damage if you want 
>> them to, and I'd hazard the opinion that the damage of Hiram's crushing 
>> gravity should be directly linked to its ability to keep you from moving -- 
>> which it automagically is taken from the TK's 1d6/5 STR. :] 
> 
>Except the TK is "Affects all parts of target" which lets one Grab and 
>pull, but not crush or punch. 
 
   But this is a specific Limitation, isn't it?  Normal TK can squeeze and 
punch, at least according to the BBB I have. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:26:59 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Moveable Force Wall 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:11 PM 11/14/97 -0200, Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria wrote: 
>  What advantages/limitations would you give to a Force Wall that move 
>with his creator but also can only be created so that its creator is its 
>center ? 
>  And what more if its size and form is fixed ? 
 
   I think the default is being able to do either one or the other, so 
since neither really limits the utility all that much, I'd call it a -1/4 
Limitation. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:29:42 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: BTILC 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
 
> On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
>  
> > >Hah!  I'm currently tinkering with the cast of _Mage_, followed by the 
> > >crew from _Big Trouble in Little China_ and then I'm considering 
> >  
> > Coolness! Don't forget that Jack Burton has Missile Deflection vs. Thrown, 
> > even before the 'magic potion'. Though I really wonder what that magic 
> > potion does - 
> >  
> > "See things no one else can see, do things no one else can do!" 
>  
> Big Trouble is one of my all time favorite movies. My college roommate and 
> I used to see it weekly at a second-run movie house for months. 
 
There was a time when a friend of mine and I could have watched that movie 
with the sound off and filled in *all* the dialogue for you. 
  
> I'd say mainly what Jack Burton has is PRE. He thinks he's a hero, so 
> other people do, too.  
 
Hmm... good point. 
 
> I'd probably give him Lightning Reflexes rather than a high DEX ("It's all 
> in the reflexes.") Maybe a familiarity with Disguise (Or is it an Everyman 
> skill?), Luck and Unluck, and a big psych lim for Overconfidence. 
 
I hate Lightning Reflexes, but other than that I like your comments. 
 
> Has anyone written up Snake Pliskin? I seem to recall seeing a version 
> once, but I'm not sure.  
 
Snake?  Why would someone wnat to write *him* up, I heard he was dead... 
 
Oh, BTW - has anyone else spotted the really blatant Jack Burton ripoff in 
_Normals Unbound_.  I forgot his name, but he's the trucker with an 
eyepatch, a tendency to tell tall tales and drives the "Meatloaf Meteor" 
(instead of the "Porkchop Express"). 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 97 21:46:40  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Heroic characters paying for weaponry? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:45:20 -0800, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote: 
 
>     Here's a question for you: 
>      
>     Do any GMs make their heroic-level characters pay for any weaponry or  
>     equipment that they might carry?  
>      
>     For my paranormal investigations campaign, I'm thinking of making the  
>     players pay for those items that they would always be carrying, like a  
>     personal sidearm, or a magic dagger, or a bullet-proof vest. Then, if  
>     they need some heavier fire-power for an adventure, they can request  
>     it from their bosses. If I deem it proper, I'll give them what they  
>     need. 
>      
>     Considering this will probably only be 10 or 15 points (out of a total  
>     of 150), do you think this is a good idea or a bad idea? Do you think  
>     it will cause players to want to spend more on weaponry (like an  
>     assault rifle) and less on investigative skills, since they have to  
>     pay the points anyways? 
>      
>     Richard 
> 
 
I heroic level games I have never had characters pay points for any equipment which  
would be normally available for purchase, nor any items which are found during play  
(taking weapons off fallen foes and the like).   
 
If the player wanted the character to have mondo-weird items, we talked...  and the  
character usually ended up paying points for it. 
 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 97 21:48:06  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Marvel Write-ups 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:41:01 -0200 (EDT), Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria wrote: 
 
>   I have made many writeups of Marvel Superheroes, based on the 
>descriptions given on Marvel Superheroes RPG. I don't know if it is of 
>interest of the list to receive them (also there is many of them on the 
>internet, written by other people), but I could send them (not 
>instantly... they are not written on PC yet) to the list or to whom want 
>it... or maybe just some specific heroes. I don't know what is the best 
>for you... well... I could do what you decide. 
 
 
Personally, I'm always interested in seeing how other folks write-up known characters.  I  
say, post away... 
 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:59:35 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Question on posions 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Speaking of Mage, I am tinkering with how to write up the poisionous spurs 
of the Grackleflints. 
 
At the moment, I am using a Drain (like 6d6), with a Continous charge of, 
say... 1 minute (and a Recovery period measured in months). 
 
Anyone have any better ideas? 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:50:39 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re: Dominion 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
thanks for posting your material. 
 
I only have one minor crtiticism: 
your themes seem a bit one-track. 
 
the holidays are coming. 
 
try not to think about or watch any anime until         :) 
at least january 6th, okay? 
-- 
Elliott 
 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:13:01 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Big-Top Blow-out! 
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org" 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
	"Hureeee, hureeeee, hureeeee!  That's right; step right up! 
Come see the a-maz-ing human toad!" 
 
	It has come time for me to ask the greatest of all requests. 
 
	I need information....  on anything remotely related to the 
circus. 
 
	That's circus villans, circus write ups, circus powers, andything 
 remotely related to the circus.... anything. 
 
	That's every circus of crime, every carnival magician (someone asked 
for this a long time ago), every acrobat, knife thrower, and juggling villian. 
Even characters who have nothing to do with the circus-- but are constructed 
along that vein. 
	Every looney that looks like a clown.  Master illusionist.  Escape 
artist.  Reasonabally weird side-show freak.  Animal trainer. 
 
	It's bigger than you think.  If you can give me a name, that's good. 
If you can direct me to a page with those writeups, that's even better. 
Who knows?  If you mail them to me, you may even win a cupie doll. 
 
	So check your rigging (NOT the cyber-genre rigging for TUSV), 
put on your face paint, count you're throwing knives, and dust off 
you're tophat... 
	...cause the show must go on. 
 
	Things I need:  original names, existing characters from comic books, 
graphic novels, literature, movies, urban folklore, and reality.  Web sites 
with info on circuses, viedos with anything remotely circus related, books 
with anything remotely circus related.  RPGs, Champions supplements, anything! 
I'm a desperate man!  There are dozens of clowns, and they all want to kill me. 
...erk 
							-Jason 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Shield Multipower 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:35:36 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Friday, November 14, 1997 11:13 AM, Filksinger wrote: 
 
>Sure, you can declare that Mr. Shield is so good that it 
>doesn't matter, but suppose he is surpassed out of combat, or even in 
>combat? 
 
 
The dark side of spell checkers. 
 
That should be surprised out of combat. I forgot the first "r", and 
automatically accepted the spell checker's  suggestion. Oops. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:45:20 -0800 
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger) 
Subject: Heroic characters paying for weaponry? 
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
     Here's a question for you: 
      
     Do any GMs make their heroic-level characters pay for any weaponry or  
     equipment that they might carry?  
      
     For my paranormal investigations campaign, I'm thinking of making the  
     players pay for those items that they would always be carrying, like a  
     personal sidearm, or a magic dagger, or a bullet-proof vest. Then, if  
     they need some heavier fire-power for an adventure, they can request  
     it from their bosses. If I deem it proper, I'll give them what they  
     need. 
      
     Considering this will probably only be 10 or 15 points (out of a total  
     of 150), do you think this is a good idea or a bad idea? Do you think  
     it will cause players to want to spend more on weaponry (like an  
     assault rifle) and less on investigative skills, since they have to  
     pay the points anyways? 
      
     Richard 
 
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:58:28 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Avalon's Daughter 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
>At 12:47 PM 11/14/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>>>when she 'dies.'  She turns back to a steel statue.  If she is 
>>>rushed to her 'father,' Merlin, in time she can be revived,  
>>>otherwise, she's in perpetual statue stasis. 
>>>How would you represent this stasis?  What about her form in this 
>>>stasis?  Anyone want to take a shot and throw some stats at me? 
>> 
>>This sounds like a good use of Aid to Body (and maybe DEF) triggered by 
>>going to -10 Body, 1 Charge (must be reset by Merlin), 0 DCV, Gestures 
>>throughout (standing perfectly still). Or replace DCV & Gestures with 
>>full side effect. 
>> 
>>>he also hurts people who hit him, 
>>>due to his ultra-neat-o hard/dense hide. 
>>>How would you represent this? 
>> 
>>I've done this with: 
>>3d6 EB, NND (defense is doing knockback to him), Damage Shield, -1/2 
>>Stun on NND equals Body rolled on the punch against him. 
>> 
>>>Like his sister, he also goes into 'statue stasis.'   
>>>How would you represent this? 
>> 
>>Normal loss of stun and going unconscious... 
>> 
>>Dave Mattingly 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
>try bying suseptibility- speed drain, occurs when body reaches  
>10, and some sorta special heal aid fer merlin. . . 
> 
> 
> 
 
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:45:00 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Marvel Write-ups 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:48 PM 11/14/97 +0000, you wrote: 
>On Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:41:01 -0200 (EDT), Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria wrote: 
> 
>>   I have made many writeups of Marvel Superheroes, based on the 
>>descriptions given on Marvel Superheroes RPG. I don't know if it is of 
>>interest of the list to receive them (also there is many of them on the 
>>internet, written by other people), but I could send them (not 
>>instantly... they are not written on PC yet) to the list or to whom want 
>>it... or maybe just some specific heroes. I don't know what is the best 
>>for you... well... I could do what you decide. 
> 
> 
>Personally, I'm always interested in seeing how other folks write-up known characters.  I  
>say, post away... 
> 
> 
 
me tto. all interpretations are welcome to the lkst i'd say 
, just put them in on epost fer one character. . .and don't  
post EVERYBODY all at once.. .  
 
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 23:59:48 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Heroic characters paying for weaponry? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote: 
 
>      Here's a question for you: 
>       
>      Do any GMs make their heroic-level characters pay for any weaponry or  
>      equipment that they might carry?  
 
I'd say that the PCs should be allowed to have 'real world' gear for 
free, but should pay for any unique or magical items.  Of course, such 
real world items like an M-16 should be subject to PC origin and GM 
approval.  
 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 00:01:50 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Dominion 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 14 Nov 1997 Egyptoid@aol.com wrote: 
 
> thanks for posting your material. 
>  
> I only have one minor crtiticism: 
> your themes seem a bit one-track. 
 
<shrug>  What can I say.  I don't read American comics anymore, and 
besides, Sam Bell done just about everyone in the DC and Marvel universes 
who is anyone. 
  
> the holidays are coming. 
>  
> try not to think about or watch any anime until         :) 
> at least january 6th, okay? 
 
Hey, the next batch will be from Mge and the ones after that will be from 
Big Trouble.. No anime there! 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> 
From: "The Ineffable Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> 
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:54:52 +0000 
Subject: Re: Heroic characters paying for weaponry? 
Reply-to: ghoyle1@airmail.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Knowing what is and isn't "normal equipment" is hard, though.  In my  
pulp campaign, someone wanted to buy shoes with spring-loaded daggers  
in the toes as "normal equipment"!  (They had the backing of one of  
the most experienced GMs in our group, too.) 
 
As a rule of thumb, I define "normal equipment" as any item normally  
available in a store or a mail-order catalog.  Equipment available to  
policemen and the military (not top-level secret military research)   
is also allowed.  Thus, such things as gas masks, bullet proof vests,  
handcuffs, flashlights, etc., are allowed freely in my campaign,  
which is set in the 1930s.  Bear in mind that bullet-proof vests and  
portable radio transmitters would automatically be Bulky. 
 
Gas bombs, blackout bombs, tear gas grenades, personal body armor  
(also Bulky), suction-cup climbing gear, battery-powered  
electric cattleprods, "wirepoons", Batarangs, etc., would all be  
bought with points.  I really like the term "signature equipment"  
for this kind of gear, which would probably be available to  
top-secret organizations. 
 
Incidentally, I'd be very interested in hearing from anybody who has  
any ideas on character equipment for a 1930s campaign. 
 
Guy 
---------------------------------- 
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com) 
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/ 
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf 
and the PANGAEA Project! 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 06:07:21 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Screaming Really Loud 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:23 PM 11/14/97 -0500, Eric Burns wrote: 
>I'm trying to figure out how to implement two fairly minor powers 
>in an affordable way. 
> 
>1.  Being able to scream really loud: loud enough to be heard from 
>miles around.  Does no damage, just loud.  (and obnoxious, I guess) 
 
   Treat it as Enhanced Senses and/or Telescopic for voice.  (Steve Long's 
article in Hero System Alamanc 2 mentions treating voice as an unusual case 
of Hearing Sense for purposes of sense-affecting Powers, and I tend to go 
along with it). 
   As a side note, Flash vs Voice would make for an interesting Side Effect 
for this Power. 
 
>2.  Generating a light, like a lantern.  Just a light, nothing special. 
 
   This is something I give treatment of in TUSV. 
   Use Images vs Normal Sight to represent this.  The Radius is the area 
covered; what would normally be penalties to PER Rolls to penetrate the 
illusion becomes bonuses to Sight PER to see the area.  The Limitation 
"Only to Illuminate" is a -1 Limitation, and other Limitations may be added 
as needed and desired. 
   Most vehicles may have headlights and dome lights as "everyvehicle" 
abilities (depending on the GM's judgement, of course).  If something 
special is needed, use Images. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 09:46:00 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Heroic characters paying for weaponry? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote: 
 
>      Here's a question for you: 
>       
>      Do any GMs make their heroic-level characters pay for any weaponry or  
>      equipment that they might carry?  
>       
>      For my paranormal investigations campaign, I'm thinking of making the  
>      players pay for those items that they would always be carrying, like a  
>      personal sidearm, or a magic dagger, or a bullet-proof vest. Then, if  
>      they need some heavier fire-power for an adventure, they can request  
>      it from their bosses. If I deem it proper, I'll give them what they  
>      need. 
>       
>      Considering this will probably only be 10 or 15 points (out of a total  
>      of 150), do you think this is a good idea or a bad idea? Do you think  
>      it will cause players to want to spend more on weaponry (like an  
>      assault rifle) and less on investigative skills, since they have to  
>      pay the points anyways? 
>       
 
I think this is a bad idea. A friend of mine ran a Dark Champions game he 
originally envisioned with a high level of realism. Thinking he could keep 
a tighter rein on the players (and just plain being stingy), he charged 
people for their equipment. 
 
Now, if he'd used normal heroic rules, I'm sure people would just have 
used standard equipment. But since we were paying points for things 
anyway, we all threw in some customized gadgets. I stayed relatively 
simple, taking some IR goggles and a cane gun that propelled 
hallucinogenic darts and flash charges. One guy build a low tech 
battlesuit! And with more fantastic equipment, the character concepts 
tended to be a bit more fantastic as well. The characters were all very 
cool, and I loved the game, but it was absolutely nothing like the GM had 
intended. 
 
Granted, you could be stricter with the players, absolutely refusing to 
let them use anything nonstandard. But what would the point be? The 
points-for-everything system works well to represent the superhero genre, 
where people tend to have signature equipment, but doesn't work well for 
other genres. That's why they contrived the heroic rules in the first 
place. 
 
 
 
 
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:08:13 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: BTILC 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> > > >Hah!  I'm currently tinkering with the cast of _Mage_, followed by the 
> > > >crew from _Big Trouble in Little China_ and then I'm considering 
> > >  
>  
> I hate Lightning Reflexes, but other than that I like your comments. 
 
I'm a little cautious with Lightning Reflexes myself, so I suggested it 
tentatively, and wouldn't miss it too badly. The aforementioned Missile 
Deflection should represent the biggest use of Jack's reflexes anyway. 
 
Of course, the really interesting part of Jack's skills is what he doesn't 
have, but almost everyone else in the film does. Most of the Chinese have 
martial arts, obviously, and they as well as Grace and (oh the shame, I've 
forgotten the reporter's name) have Area Knowledge: Little China and 
varying amounts of KS: Chinese Culture. (The reporter doesn't have this KS 
- she's "monumentally naive.")  
 
>  
> > Has anyone written up Snake Pliskin? I seem to recall seeing a version 
> > once, but I'm not sure.  
>  
> Snake?  Why would someone wnat to write *him* up, I heard he was dead... 
>  
 
Nah, he's alive. But he's not as tall as I thought. 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 07:30:46 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Heroic characters paying for weaponry? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:45 PM 11/14/97 -0800, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote: 
>     Here's a question for you: 
>      
>     Do any GMs make their heroic-level characters pay for any weaponry or  
>     equipment that they might carry?  
 
   Only if it is not "stock" weapons.  If it's normal equipment (like a 
revolver, a bulletproof vest, an automobile, or a cellular phone) or 
equipment supplied by the agency for which they work, they don't have to 
pay points for it.   
 
>     For my paranormal investigations campaign, I'm thinking of making the  
>     players pay for those items that they would always be carrying, like a  
>     personal sidearm, or a magic dagger, or a bullet-proof vest. Then, if  
>     they need some heavier fire-power for an adventure, they can request  
>     it from their bosses. If I deem it proper, I'll give them what they  
>     need. 
 
   Allow them normal equipment like the above at no cost, but give them a 
limited allowance -- say, 25 real points.  If they want more than that, or 
if they want something fancy, they can pay for it. 
 
>     Considering this will probably only be 10 or 15 points (out of a total  
>     of 150), do you think this is a good idea or a bad idea? Do you think  
>     it will cause players to want to spend more on weaponry (like an  
>     assault rifle) and less on investigative skills, since they have to  
>     pay the points anyways? 
 
   Despite what I say above, your plan isn't necessarily a *bad* idea. 
It's not the standard Hero line wisdom, and it will probably have the 
effect that concerns you (discouraging them from spending those points on 
investigative Skills).  The players won't necessarily want to spend more on 
weaponry, though; more likely, some of them will skip on it altogether. 
(Depending on the campaign background, I personally would probably end up 
just giving my character some basic martial arts.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 07:33:03 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Heroic characters paying for weaponry? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:46 AM 11/15/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>Granted, you could be stricter with the players, absolutely refusing to 
>let them use anything nonstandard. But what would the point be? The 
>points-for-everything system works well to represent the superhero genre, 
>where people tend to have signature equipment, but doesn't work well for 
>other genres. That's why they contrived the heroic rules in the first 
>place. 
 
   This agrees with what I was saying:  charge for customized ("signature") 
equipment, but not for over-the-counter and standard-issue stuff. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Dominion 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 15 Nov 1997 10:35:21 -0500 
Lines: 32 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "E" == Egyptoid <Egyptoid@aol.com> writes: 
 
E> I only have one minor crtiticism: 
E> your themes seem a bit one-track. 
 
E> the holidays are coming. 
 
So, it's time for someone to repost Santa Claus. 
 
Again. 
 
Geoff, you do have a copy of it somewhere, right?  Right? 
 
:) 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Dominion 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 15 Nov 1997 10:36:37 -0500 
Lines: 33 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes: 
 
>> the holidays are coming. 
>>  
>> try not to think about or watch any anime until         :) 
>> at least january 6th, okay? 
 
MS> Hey, the next batch will be from Mge and the ones after that will be 
MS> from Big Trouble.. No anime there! 
 
Nonono, you aren't thinking.  You need to start digging into Dr. Slump, 
specifically "Black Santa".  And you can do Gamera while you are at it and 
still stay in theme. 
 
:) 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Heroic characters paying for weaponry? 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 15 Nov 1997 10:44:06 -0500 
Lines: 40 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "RGS" == Richard G Schwerdtfeger <RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com> 
>>>>> writes: 
 
RGS>      Do any GMs make their heroic-level characters pay for any 
RGS>      weaponry or equipment that they might carry? 
 
No.  For "normal" gear, stuff one can buy in a store or from a catalog, 
heroic characters do not need to spend their points.  Heroic characters 
only spend points on unique items. 
      
RGS>      For my paranormal investigations campaign, I'm thinking of making 
RGS>      the players pay for those items that they would always be 
RGS>      carrying, like a personal sidearm, or a magic dagger, or a 
RGS>      bullet-proof vest. 
 
Then I hope you give them an extra 200 points each to cover the cost of 
these things.  "Normal" gear can get very expensive point-wise.  I once did 
a writeup of a young Dirty Pair, in which I did pay points for the gadgets 
(it was a requirement for the campaign).  Sidearm, some light body armor 
(4-5 DEF), radio (earrings), and a couple of other gadgets came out to 
something around 75 real points each -- and that was stripped down from 
what they should have had by about half. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Heroic characters paying for weaponry? 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 15 Nov 1997 10:47:28 -0500 
Lines: 28 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
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>>>>> "BS" == Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> writes: 
 
BS> One guy build a low tech battlesuit! 
 
Been there, done that.  It is amazing what you can do when the GM will 
allow you to abuse the vehicle rules :).  150 points?  Sure, no 
problem... I can build something as tough as a small tank on that, and 
still have enough points to build a battlesuit that will put my character 
on par with anything else in the campaign, and still have a decently 
rounded character. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <swhbfssg@pop.softnet.co.uk> 
From: "MarkBarltrop" <Mark.Barltrop@kzin.softnet.co.uk> 
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:14:29 +0100 
Subject: Re: Screaming Really Loud 
Reply-to: tachyon@kzin.softnet.co.uk 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 14 Nov 97 at 13:23, Eric Burns wrote: 
 
> I'm trying to figure out how to implement two fairly minor powers in 
> an affordable way. 
>  
> 1.  Being able to scream really loud: loud enough to be heard from 
> miles around.  Does no damage, just loud.  (and obnoxious, I guess) 
>  
> 2.  Generating a light, like a lantern.  Just a light, nothing 
> special. 
>  
> Any ideas how to build these powers _cheaply_? 
>  
> -Eric 
>  
Change Environment  for both (I think No 2 is one of the classic uses  
for CE, although Images with a limit "only to produce light" is  
another possibility) 
I'd also link some extra PRE to the screaming 
Also it's going to be damn loud next to the screamer - an explosive  
sonic NND's probably called for (I  know you didn't want it to cause  
any damage - but I can't see how you can avoid it - unless you define  
the SFX as being a scream that doesn't lose any volume until the  
boundary of the CE - and that would require some explaining). 
Mark Barltrop (tachyon@kzin.softnet.co.uk) 
'What is it?' 
'Its a wolf!' 
'In a city? What does it find to eat?' 
'Oh, why did you have to ask that?' 
(Terry Pratchett,'Feet of Clay') 
 
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:52:55 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: BTILC 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
 
> On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
> > I hate Lightning Reflexes, but other than that I like your comments. 
>  
> I'm a little cautious with Lightning Reflexes myself, so I suggested it 
> tentatively, and wouldn't miss it too badly. The aforementioned Missile 
> Deflection should represent the biggest use of Jack's reflexes anyway. 
 
Agreed. 
  
> Of course, the really interesting part of Jack's skills is what he doesn't 
> have, but almost everyone else in the film does. Most of the Chinese have 
> martial arts, obviously, and they as well as Grace and (oh the shame, I've 
> forgotten the reporter's name) have Area Knowledge: Little China and 
> varying amounts of KS: Chinese Culture. (The reporter doesn't have this KS 
> - she's "monumentally naive.")  
 
It's Gracie Law and Margo Litzenberger from the... Berkley People's Hearld 
(I think). 
  
Good point on the skills (sound of notes being taken) 
 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:55:06 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Dominion 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 15 Nov 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> Nonono, you aren't thinking.  You need to start digging into Dr. Slump, 
> specifically "Black Santa".  And you can do Gamera while you are at it and 
> still stay in theme. 
 
Right!   
 
Tom!  Crow!  All together now! 
 
"Gamera is really neat!" 
"He's filled with turtle meat!" 
 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:59:11 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Essay: How do I? (long!) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    So instead of babbling on two hundred pages, you decided to just (pause)... 
>    ...Babble On Five. 
>    (Sorry.) 
 
Urk!  Oh... that was bad. 
  
> >Except the TK is "Affects all parts of target" which lets one Grab and 
> >pull, but not crush or punch. 
 
>    But this is a specific Limitation, isn't it?  Normal TK can squeeze and 
> punch, at least according to the BBB I have. 
 
BBB page 86 
 
Telekinesis paragrah 3: 
 
"If a character's TK affects all parts of the target, then it is bought 
with a -1/4 Power Limitation.  Characters with this type of Telekinesis 
cannot squeeze of punch a target; they can still grab however." 
 
This is what I used for the power. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: Marvel Write-ups 
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 14:38:52 -0500 (EST) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> >>   I have made many writeups of Marvel Superheroes, based on the 
> >>descriptions given on Marvel Superheroes RPG. I don't know if it is of 
> >>interest of the list to receive them (also there is many of them on the 
> >>internet, written by other people), but I could send them (not 
> >>instantly... they are not written on PC yet) to the list or to whom want 
> >>it... or maybe just some specific heroes. I don't know what is the best 
> >>for you... well... I could do what you decide. 
> > 
> > 
> >Personally, I'm always interested in seeing how other folks write-up known characters.  I  
> >say, post away... 
> > 
> > 
>  
 
Ditto.  As for specific characters, I'd love to see how you handled 
Spider-Man.  Or one of the aquatic heroes like Namor, Namorita, or 
Marrina.  Just a suggestion... 
 
-Eric 
 
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 12:30:49 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Marvel Write-ups 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Hello; 
    There's a listing on the web of such things. 
 
Go to: 
 
http://www.mactyre.net/scm/deejay/champs/writeups.html 
 
 
It claims to have some 370 or so of them... 
 
Eric Burns wrote: 
 
> > >>   I have made many writeups of Marvel Superheroes, based on the 
> > >>descriptions given on Marvel Superheroes RPG. I don't know if it is of 
> > >>interest of the list to receive them (also there is many of them on the 
> > >>internet, written by other people), but I could send them (not 
> > >>instantly... they are not written on PC yet) to the list or to whom want 
> > >>it... or maybe just some specific heroes. I don't know what is the best 
> > >>for you... well... I could do what you decide. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >Personally, I'm always interested in seeing how other folks write-up known characters.  I 
> > >say, post away... 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> 
> Ditto.  As for specific characters, I'd love to see how you handled 
> Spider-Man.  Or one of the aquatic heroes like Namor, Namorita, or 
> Marrina.  Just a suggestion... 
> 
> -Eric 
 
 
 
-- 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:33:21 -0500 (EST) 
From: "Kevin Lewis (UND)" <klewis1@soleil.acomp.usf.edu> 
X-Sender: klewis1@soleil 
Reply-To: "Kevin Lewis (UND)" <klewis1@soleil.acomp.usf.edu> 
cc: Kevin Lewis <klewis1@soleil.acomp.usf.edu> 
Subject: subscription interest 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
just wanting to subscribe to the superhero newsgroup 
 
thanks 
 
Kevin Lewis 
 
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:35:12 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net 
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
Subject: Lightning Reflexes (was: BTILC) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
>> I hate Lightning Reflexes, but other than that I like your comments. 
> 
>I'm a little cautious with Lightning Reflexes myself, so I suggested it 
>tentatively, and wouldn't miss it too badly. The aforementioned Missile 
>Deflection should represent the biggest use of Jack's reflexes anyway. 
> 
 
Off topic question but since several people have voiced a dislike for 
Lightning Reflexes. I've ussed to for sometime and haven't run into 
problems. I've found it very useful for Speedsters in particular (that react 
faster but aren't exceptionally more agile or combat skilled than everyone)  
 
 
 
I know violence doesn't solve all problems... 
	But it sure feels good! 
		Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior 
 
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 18:11:02 -0500 (EST) 
From: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: BTILC 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
> >I'd probably give him Lightning Reflexes rather than a high DEX ("It's all 
> >in the reflexes.") Maybe a familiarity with Disguise (Or is it an Everyman 
> >skill?), Luck and Unluck, and a big psych lim for Overconfidence. 
>  
> Like I said, Missile Deflection vs Thrown. The potion gives him Reflection 
> as well, I guess (that's where most of the points went, I guess, if you just 
> assume the potion is a temporary CP bonus). 
 
	Yeah, I'd judge that Missile Deflection vs. Thrown would also 
cover that bottle at the beginning. Speaking of which, Gaming or Gambling 
familiarity is a must (He cleaned out almost everybody at the game in the 
beginning, then beat Wang for "nothing-or-double" when he failed to cut 
the bottle in half). 
 
	And he needs vehicle skills so he can drive his rig in tight 
qaurters, KS:CB Lingo, maybe a psych lim: Itchy Trigger Finger (shooting 
Lo Pan's beholder-thingie).  Definitely Psych Lim: Loyalty.  
 
	          William K. Bushway, wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu 
	          http://Mason.GMU.edu/~wbushway/index.html 
	   "I'm betting that I'm just abnormal enough to survive." 
		    -The Tick, The Tick Vs.The Breadmaster 
 
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 18:24:51 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: BTILC 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>	And he needs vehicle skills so he can drive his rig in tight 
>qaurters, KS:CB Lingo, maybe a psych lim: Itchy Trigger Finger (shooting 
>Lo Pan's beholder-thingie).  Definitely Psych Lim: Loyalty.  
 
Itchy Trigger Finger? I don't think that's appropriate for Jack. After all, 
he'd never blown anybody away until halfway into the flick. To swipe a note 
from Feng Shui, I'd give him a Psych.Lim. called "Everyman hero" - sort of a 
catchall of bravery, patriotism, loyalty, honor, and blind stupidity :-). 
 
Note that Jack should be fairly tough, for a normal. He takes quite a bit of 
punishment from the Three Storms through the course of the film. PD 6-8, 
maybe with STUN in the high twenties/low thirties. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 18:30:08 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: RE:MArvel Write-ups 
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I'm a little biased on this one... 
	Ringmaster and the Circus of Crime 
	Knicknack, Oddball, etc., the juggling group of villians 
	The Toad 
	Boomerang 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Essay: How do I? (long!) 
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:36:12 -0800 
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On Saturday, November 15, 1997 7:10 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
 
>At 10:21 AM 11/14/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>>On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
>> 
>><shrug>  It was written very on-the-fly and I had to cut myself 
short 
>>before I generated 200+ pages of babble. 
> 
>   So instead of babbling on two hundred pages, you decided to just 
(pause)... 
>   ...Babble On Five. 
>   (Sorry.) 
 
Liar. 
 
Filksinger 


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