Week Ending December 6, 1997

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Resent-from: "Vance Scott" <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca> 
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From: "Vance Scott" <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca> 
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:53:30 -500 
Subject: Re: Champions Campaign Themes 
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Micheal Adams, Bob Greenwade, and Dragonfly thanks for the help guys. 
 
Any more ideas are welcome. 
 
 
Expanded Campaign Themes 
 
Protectors of Earth - These heroes are responsible for protecting  
earth and it's inhabitants. They are the earth's first defense  
against alien invasions, space monsters, and other world shaking  
threats. 
 
Law Enforcers - These heroes are agents of the government who  
maintain the peace, and enforce the law. These heroes have the  
santion of their government. 
 
Vigilantes - These "heroes" are citizens who take justice into their  
own hands, and  met out punishment as they see fit. 
 
Specialists - These heroes handle special cases that require unique  
skills and talents to handle. These heroes deal with those threats  
that the usual hero can't handle. A covert operations team, or a  
supernatural investigations and elimination team would qualify. 
 
Social Activists - These heroes are trying to change society. They  
are trying to promote social, legal, and/or political change in the  
community they live in. 
 
Minority Front - These heroes are members of a minority who's first  
interest is the protection, and advancement of the group they  
represent. These heroes might be mutants, aliens, or a human minority  
group.  
 
Resistance Fighters - These heroes are members of a group who are  
trying who are resisting invaders, or an oppressive government. 
 
Professionals - These heroes are paid for their assistance. The hero  
business is a job for these heroes. They may be independent  
contractors, or work for a regular employer. 
 
Adventurers - These heroes are in it for the adventure. The exotic  
encounters, and experiences are reward enough for these heroes.  
 
Investigators - These heroes are in it to learn. This explorers, and  
researchers are in it to satisify their curiousity. 
 
    I eagerly await any additions to this list of hero teams. 
 
Vance Scott 
 
Vanquisher of all foes 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 17:21:50 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re:  Re: CHAR: Shaggy 
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In a message dated 11/28/97 4:49:47 AM, bob.greenwade@klock.com wrote: 
>   Oh, darn.  When I saw the Subject header, I was hoping this would be the 
>start of write-ups of Scooby-Doo and the gang. 
>--- 
>Bob 
 
Don't laugh. there's a page out on the www where 
someone wrote up the Mystery Machine gang as Hunters 
for white wolf's vampire game. I could easily convert it to Hero 
for you if you like  :)  Velma, Fred, Diana, Scrappy, Shaggy, Scooby 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 17:21:52 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re:  Re: Re: Re: Non shrinking shrinking 
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true true, CE was a reach. 
 
"Density Decrease" 
it either sounds like a legit new power to me. 
-or- 
Desolid with strange Limits on it. 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 17:21:54 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re:  Re: Writing Up Yourself 
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it was a quickie form I used in a  
"play yourself as a PC" game a few weeks back 
a govt. group called The Shop had kidanpped 
the PC's and was running them through 
a Virtual Reality where they were mundanes. 
 
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From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams) 
Date: 28 Nov 97 23:11:38 GMT 
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition Hero Syste 
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I thought HERO was into Fuzion totally and that there would not be a new 
edition printed.  
 
Or did I miss something, I stop by here not that often and no longer player 
RPGs just design worlds/universes/multiverse. 
 
 
 
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From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 19:26:28 -0500 (EST) 
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Subject: Re: Odinistic Mercenary 
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	Actually, it has eight pneumatic 'shafts;' two on each side of the 
front and back wheels.... has a limited hyper leap ability like a turbo boost. 
 
From: "Jeff O'Connor" <jtoc@msn.com> 
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 01:17:26 -0700 
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Subscribe 
 
 
 
 
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From: "Jeff O'Connor" <jtoc@msn.com> 
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 01:19:38 -0700 
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Subject: Re: Writing Up Yourself 
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Test. 
-----Original Message----- 
From: Opal <Opal@october.com> 
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: Monday, November 24, 1997 4:03 PM 
Subject: Re: Writing Up Yourself 
 
 
> 
> 
> h > From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
> h > 
> h > If you want detailed skill lists, you go to Fuzion or GURPS. 
> h > If you want difficulty levels with it, go to GURPS. 
>..... 
> h >     Much as I hate to admit it, Fuzion is a much better choice for a 
> h > game needing detailed skills and a hard core feel. Of course, it loses 
> 
>I'll agree on the hard core feel - Fuzion is lethal compared to 
>Hero.  But, the way Fuzion works skills makes developing a 
>serious skill-based character very difficult.  You might be 
>able to get a reasonable number of skills to start, but, once 
>you move into actual play, the experience system gets in the 
>way of improving skills. 
>___ 
> * OFFLINE 1.58 
> 
 
 
 
 
 
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From: "Guy Hoyle the Ineffable" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> 
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 11:32:13 +0000 
Subject: Re: Champions Campaign Themes 
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 Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> said: 
 
> I would also add: 
>  
> Symbols - These heroes represent an ideal, a cause, belief, or group of 
> people. They take direct action in their cause, and even when involved in 
> tangental causes strive to embody their motivating ideal. 
>  
> This is more common as an individual theme (e.g. Captain America), but it 
> is possible for a group (The Force of July was a villainous example.) 
 
Another example is the original Teen Titans.  They concentrated  
mainly on problems facing teenagers, which were quite different back  
then.  No teen pregnancy or drugs; mostly things like overbearing  
adult authority figures who wanted to keep the kids "in line", or  
evil masterminds hell-bent on ruining the sock-hop. 
---------------------------------- 
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com) 
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/ 
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf 
and the PANGAEA Project! 
 
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From: "Guy Hoyle the Ineffable" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> 
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 12:24:34 +0000 
Subject: Scooby Doo 
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I don't have any character writeups, but I do have a rather sinister  
interpretation of Scooby-Doo and the gang at  
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/scooby.htm 
 
Guy 
 
---------------------------------- 
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com) 
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/ 
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf 
and the PANGAEA Project! 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 97 13:33:58  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re:  Bio-genetic powers 
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On Thu, 27 Nov 1997 22:20:42 -0500 (EST), ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
 
>>        How do you simulate the power/effect of acidic blood?  Think 
>>ALIEN. 
>	HKA with Damage Shield just dosen't do this justice.  Blood is drawn 
>when BODY is taken.  However, in the movie ALIENS the characters were a 
>couple of yards away at certain points and they were still caught in the  
>acidic gore's path.  Also, since the character I'm designing this for is 
>sentient, he can cut himself and 'bleed' though locks, doors, etc. 
>Also, this would act as a flaw, because any time the character would 'bleed' 
>(as per the optional rules), there would be acidic drips. 
>	So, I'm looking for a way to simulate this... 
 
 
So what - just make the effect Uncontrolled, and give the Damage Shield 
advantage the partial limitation, 'Only when BODY damage taken (-1)' 
 
 
>	...as for the 'calorie' power, I was thinking a Multipower pool 
>based off of an END reserve for the fat fuled heat powers.  The END reserve 
>could only be 'replenished' by gaining weight.  The problem is how to simulate 
>'weight gain' (which is most likely a Physical Limitation) that is temporary... 
>and how to gain the weight back.  (Yeah... How would you construct a Temporary 
>Phys Lim?  Side Effects = Physical Limitation, Distincitive Features, minuses 
>to running, and for the addition PD Only works while fat [or Linked to END 
>reserve]???? 
 
How about Extra Time on the End Reserve's Recovery? 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 06:58:59 -0700 
From: Curtis Gibson <Mhoram@apeleon.net> 
Subject: Re: Champions Campaign Themes 
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Vance Scott wrote: 
  
> Expanded Campaign Themes 
 
> Investigators - These heroes are in it to learn. This explorers, and 
> researchers are in it to satisify their curiousity. 
>  
>     I eagerly await any additions to this list of hero teams. 
>  
> Vance Scott 
>  
> Vanquisher of all foes 
 
One to add, although it could be shoehorned under Investigators...  
 
Students - The heroes are young, and learning how to use thier powers. 
They have adventures related to this, or side effects from whomever is 
taking the responsibility to teach them.  
 
The most obvious example are the early New Mutants, and some of the 
stories of the Legion acadamy. 
 
 
 
--  
-Mhoram 
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 
 two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright 
 
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From: "Guy Hoyle the Ineffable" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> 
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 14:38:31 +0000 
Subject: Keeping Track of Damage to NPCs 
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Does anyone have a streamlined way of keeping track of damage to NPCs  
in combat? I find it hard to determine things like being stunned or  
knocked unconscious, especially when I have a number of different  
types of agents running around.  Wayne Shaw once posted such a  
system, but I seem to have lost my copy of it. 
 
Guy 
---------------------------------- 
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com) 
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/ 
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf 
and the PANGAEA Project! 
 
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From: "Guy Hoyle the Ineffable" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> 
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 14:38:31 +0000 
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Subject: Keeping Track of Damage to NPCs 
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Does anyone have a streamlined way of keeping track of damage to NPCs  
in combat? I find it hard to determine things like being stunned or  
knocked unconscious, especially when I have a number of different  
types of agents running around.  Wayne Shaw once posted such a  
system, but I seem to have lost my copy of it. 
 
Guy 
---------------------------------- 
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com) 
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/ 
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf 
and the PANGAEA Project! 
 
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified) 
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 08:54:25 -0600 
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us> 
Subject: Re:  Re: CHAR: Shaggy 
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At 05:21 PM 11/28/97 -0500, Egyptoid@aol.com wrote: 
>In a message dated 11/28/97 4:49:47 AM, bob.greenwade@klock.com wrote: 
>>   Oh, darn.  When I saw the Subject header, I was hoping this would be the 
>>start of write-ups of Scooby-Doo and the gang. 
>>--- 
>>Bob 
> 
>Don't laugh. there's a page out on the www where 
>someone wrote up the Mystery Machine gang as Hunters 
>for white wolf's vampire game. I could easily convert it to Hero 
>for you if you like  :)  Velma, Fred, Diana, Scrappy, Shaggy, Scooby 
> 
 
  That should be Daphne not Diana... 
 
  And it really scares me that (a) I know this and (b) I'm taking the time 
to correct you.... 
 
Earl Kwallek - Earl@TheWarren.Mil.Wi.US 
 
A Man with a gun is a citizen; 
a man without a gun is a subject. 
 
The best Gun in the World is - 
The one that you have ready in your Hand! 
 
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 10:04:30 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Champions Campaign Themes 
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On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, Vance Scott wrote: 
 
> Protectors of Earth - These heroes are responsible for protecting  
> earth and it's inhabitants. They are the earth's first defense  
> against alien invasions, space monsters, and other world shaking  
> threats. 
> 
 
This is often seen in a more limited form - Protectors of City or Region. 
(Protector of Gotham, Protectors of Detroit, Protectors of Canada, etc.) 
  
 
I would also add: 
 
Symbols - These heroes represent an ideal, a cause, belief, or group of 
people. They take direct action in their cause, and even when involved in 
tangental causes strive to embody their motivating ideal. 
 
This is more common as an individual theme (e.g. Captain America), but it 
is possible for a group (The Force of July was a villainous example.) 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 07:50:05 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions Campaign Themes 
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At 02:53 PM 11/28/97 -500, Vance Scott wrote: 
>Micheal Adams, Bob Greenwade, and Dragonfly thanks for the help guys. 
> 
>Any more ideas are welcome. 
> 
> 
>Expanded Campaign Themes 
 
   I thought of a couple more:   
 
   Reluctant Heroes.  These are the folks who would rather do something 
else with their powers (maybe just make a decent and honest living), but 
get caught up in adventures anyway and just have to deal with it. 
 
   Underground Heroes, or Outlaw Heroes.  These guys have been framed or 
mistakenly convicted of some crime, and are out to clear their names. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 07:51:35 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re:  Re: CHAR: Shaggy 
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At 05:21 PM 11/28/97 -0500, Egyptoid@aol.com wrote: 
>In a message dated 11/28/97 4:49:47 AM, bob.greenwade@klock.com wrote: 
>>   Oh, darn.  When I saw the Subject header, I was hoping this would be the 
>>start of write-ups of Scooby-Doo and the gang. 
>>--- 
>>Bob 
> 
>Don't laugh. there's a page out on the www where 
>someone wrote up the Mystery Machine gang as Hunters 
>for white wolf's vampire game. I could easily convert it to Hero 
>for you if you like  :)  Velma, Fred, Diana, Scrappy, Shaggy, Scooby 
 
   I wasn't laughing. 
   By the way, it's Daphne, not Diana. 
   And please, spare me Scrappy. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 07:56:07 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition Hero Syste 
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At 11:25 PM 11/27/97 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote: 
>Genre arguments don't really solve the problem.  If something has more 
>effect (and since it ignore non-resistant defenses, KA's do have more 
>effect), it should cost more points. 
 
   Killing Attacks only ingore non-resistant defenses for purposes of BODY, 
unless the target has no non-resistant defenses at all. 
   They also do less STUN on average, and less knockback.  And they cannot 
be Bounced or Spread. 
   Theoretically, at least, these are supposed to balance out the fact that 
KAs do more BODY on average, and ignore non-resistant defenses for purposes 
of BODY (and for STUN if the target has no resistant defenses). 
    
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 07:58:33 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition Hero Syste 
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At 11:11 PM 11/28/97 GMT, Michael Adams wrote: 
>I thought HERO was into Fuzion totally and that there would not be a new 
>edition printed.  
> 
>Or did I miss something, I stop by here not that often and no longer player 
>RPGs just design worlds/universes/multiverse. 
 
   I forget where and exactly who, but someone at hero (I *think* it was 
Steve Peterson) has said that an "updated Fourth Edition," sort of a Hero 
4.5, might be assembled for Hero Plus when all the copies of Fourth Edition 
Champions and Champions Deluxe are sold out.  This would basically be the 
Fourth Edition, plus all the new rules from genre books, Ultimate books, 
Alamancs, and so forth -- at least, those that haven't been largely 
condemned. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 08:04:03 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Odinistic Mercenary 
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At 07:48 PM 11/28/97 GMT, Opal wrote: 
> 
> 
> h > From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>  
> h >  
> h > >animal followers that Odin has).  Anyone out there care to take a  
> h > stab at  
> h > >that stats for a really kicking Harley hog that's been souped up  
> h > >(his 'steed').  
> h >  
> h >    I think I'll take a pass on this one...   :-]  
> h > ---  
>  
>You don't think that's a good candidate for TUSV?  :)  
>  
>Wouldn't it have 8 wheels?  
 
   My answer to both questions is "arguably, yes."   :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> 
From: "Guy Hoyle the Ineffable" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> 
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 16:24:04 +0000 
Subject: Re: Keeping Track of Damage to NPCs 
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> > Does anyone have a streamlined way of keeping track of damage to NPCs  
> > in combat? I find it hard to determine things like being stunned or  
>  
>   Well, I usually use pushpins with the metal needle to show thugs on 
> a map.  For Stunned ones, I lay the pin on it's side.  For unconscious thugs 
> who might get up again, I turn them upside down.  ANybody who isn't like to  
> get up during the fight is simply removed fromthe board. 
>  
I should have been a little clearer. Keeping track of them on a map  
is easy. I just have a hard time keeping track of all the mental  
calculations about how much damage is being done to them in battle,  
then figuring out what effect it has on them, then remembering to  
give them their recoveries, etc.  I hate to take time away from the  
game for bookkeeping, and was looking for a simpler method of keeping  
track, especially with a large number of agents. 
 
Guy  
>  
>  
---------------------------------- 
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com) 
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/ 
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf 
and the PANGAEA Project! 
 
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From: "Guy Hoyle the Ineffable" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> 
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 16:24:04 +0000 
X-To: hero-l@october.com,              champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Keeping Track of Damage to NPCs 
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> > Does anyone have a streamlined way of keeping track of damage to NPCs  
> > in combat? I find it hard to determine things like being stunned or  
>  
>   Well, I usually use pushpins with the metal needle to show thugs on 
> a map.  For Stunned ones, I lay the pin on it's side.  For unconscious thugs 
> who might get up again, I turn them upside down.  ANybody who isn't like to  
> get up during the fight is simply removed fromthe board. 
>  
I should have been a little clearer. Keeping track of them on a map  
is easy. I just have a hard time keeping track of all the mental  
calculations about how much damage is being done to them in battle,  
then figuring out what effect it has on them, then remembering to  
give them their recoveries, etc.  I hate to take time away from the  
game for bookkeeping, and was looking for a simpler method of keeping  
track, especially with a large number of agents. 
 
Guy  
>  
>  
---------------------------------- 
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com) 
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/ 
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf 
and the PANGAEA Project! 
 
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 12:39:28 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Reply-To: NOSPAMrook@infinex.com 
CC: hero-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Shaggy 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> >   Oh, darn.  When I saw the Subject header, I was hoping this would be the 
> >start of write-ups of Scooby-Doo and the gang. 
> 
> Don't laugh. there's a page out on the www where 
> someone wrote up the Mystery Machine gang as Hunters 
> for white wolf's vampire game. I could easily convert it to Hero 
> for you if you like  :)  Velma, Fred, Diana, Scrappy, Shaggy, Scooby 
 
http://www.access.digex.net/~catalyst/Scooby/index.html 
 
I've got it on my super hero links page. 
 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net> 
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 15:42:45 -0500 (EST) 
X-To: hero-l@october.com 
Subject: Re: Keeping Track of Damage to NPCs 
X-Listname: Hero 
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>  
> Does anyone have a streamlined way of keeping track of damage to NPCs  
> in combat? I find it hard to determine things like being stunned or  
 
  Well, I usually use pushpins with the metal needle to show thugs on 
a map.  For Stunned ones, I lay the pin on it's side.  For unconscious thugs 
who might get up again, I turn them upside down.  ANybody who isn't like to  
get up during the fight is simply removed fromthe board. 
 
 
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 17:29:23 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Keeping Track of Damage to NPCs 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, Guy Hoyle the Ineffable wrote: 
 
> Does anyone have a streamlined way of keeping track of damage to NPCs  
> in combat? I find it hard to determine things like being stunned or  
> knocked unconscious, especially when I have a number of different  
> types of agents running around.  Wayne Shaw once posted such a  
> system, but I seem to have lost my copy of it. 
 
We use a really simple system of "- Stun = out of fight" and "- Body = 
dead." 
 
You don't worry about recoveries and the like, although you still need to 
keep track of who is stunned and who isn't. 
 
Long has a 1d6 method, which he recommends for gunfights.  I'm not certain 
of the chart, but it goes something like this: 
 
1 - nothing 
2 - wounded 
3 - wounded 
4 - wounded 
5 - wounded and stunned 
6 - dead 
 
2 or more 'wounded' results put a character out of the fight (or something 
like that). 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 20:14:18 -0500 (EST) 
X-To: hero-l@october.com 
Subject: Re: Information request 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Bio-genetic powers 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 29 Nov 1997 21:44:00 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes: 
 
q> So what - just make the effect Uncontrolled, and give the Damage Shield 
q> advantage the partial limitation, 'Only when BODY damage taken (-1)' 
 
This still does not change the fact that a Damage Shield will not activate 
when hit by ranged attacks. 
 
The cleanest way to work it is with Trigger: when Body damage taken.  Then 
use an Autofire RKA as the basis for the attack itself. 
 
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Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 05:59:37 +0000 
From: ORT2 <ORT2@prodigy.net> 
Reply-To: ORT2@prodigy.net 
Organization: Prodigy Internet 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Scooby Doo 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Guy Hoyle the Ineffable wrote: 
>  
> I don't have any character writeups, but I do have a rather sinister 
> interpretation of Scooby-Doo and the gang at 
> http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/scooby.htm 
>  
> Guy 
>  
> ---------------------------------- 
> Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com) 
> http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/ 
> Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf 
> and the PANGAEA Project! 
 
After checking out the above web page this is all I can say about it: 
 
Guy, are you serious?  If you really believe that, then why do you play 
any sort of role playing game?  If this is a joke, then please excuse my 
little rant, but if not, I am speechless. 
 
Owen- 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 02:39:45 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: CHAR: KALUU 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
KALUU          (compadre of DR STRANGE, Marvel Comix) 
        
STR    17      DF: Wizard Garb & Spiky Hair (concealable)                     
DEX    18      Public ID (super public among cognoscenti) 
                           
CON    16      DF: Tibetan Oriental                            
BODY   11      Psych: Cold, Pragmatic ("Kinda Evil") 
                           
INT    18      Psych: Enjoys comforts & wealth                            
EGO    28      Psych: Domineering                            
PRE    22      Hunted: various neutral & good beings, from various dimensions 
                           
COM     9                                  
PD      9                                  
ED      9                                  
SPD     4                                  
REC    13                                  
END    50                                  
STUN   50                                  
 
Images:           (mirror images) 
   Sight, Sound, Smell, Touch, Mental, -8 to PER rolls, Skill Roll req. 
   x5 to Radius, Zero End, Only Images of Self (up to 8 at a time). 
 
Shape-Shift: 
    Any living Shape, Zero End. 
     Power Effects Invisible to Magical Senses. 
+Density Increase, Shrinking, Growth: Up to 1 Level of Each, 
    Only for use (linked) (if needed by shape-shift above), Zero End. 
    Power Effects Invisible to Magical Senses. 
 
Force-Field: Zero End. 13/13 
Force-Wall: 18/18, Half-End 
Immortality: (Regeneration-Type) 
Life-Support: No Aging 
Eidetic Memory: photographic 
 
Spells Multi-Power: 
  a)  Energy Blast, 14d6 
  b)  Energy Blast, Area Effect Hex  12d6 
  c)  Telepathy, Penetrating, 13d6 
  d)  Entangle BOECV, 8d6 
  e)  Killing Attack, Explosion, Double Knockback, 4d6 
  f)  Teleport, Area Effect, Transdimensional, Triggered,  
           20", x1024 NCV, UAO, UBO 
  g)  Mind-Link, Transdimensional, Any Distance, x8 minds 
  h)  Aid, To Magical Powers, BOECV, Linked to Mind-Link, 8d6 
  i)  Change Environment, Variable 
  j)  Teleport, Only in Rain/Storm: Side Effect: CE dissipates said 
rain/storm 
      20", x15625 NCV 
  k)  Summon Undead or Spirits 
  l)  Other Adjustment Powers as GM sees fits (Var.SFX) 
 
Var.Pow.Pool:  Magic Knowledge 
    40 points, Spell Books, Skill Roll, Variable SFX, GEstures, Incantations 
 
Languages: Tibetan, Chinese, Egyptian, English, Latin 
AK: World  12- 
AK: Asia 14- 
AK: Tibet 16- 
AK: the Dimensions  17- 
KS: Magic: Chaos, Darkhold, Nature, Necromantic, Black, Vishanti, Others 
             22-     13-      14-        15-       19-     12-      15- 
PS: Financier 
SC: Philosophy 
Skills: Tactics, Administration, Cramming, Agriculture, Business,  
        Riding, Deduction, Persuasion 
Well-Connected: (mostly arcane) 
Contacts: Dr.Strange, Clea, the Ancient One, Lords of Chaos, vampires, 
demons, 
          his Wall Street Broker, Lords of Sorcery, various Mystics & Wizards 
Wealth: 10 
 
Martial Arts: Jiu Jutsu  
      Block  +2 OCV  +2 DCV  Abort 
      Disarm  -1 OCV  +1 DCV 30 STR Disarm 
      Dodge  +0  OCV  +5 DCV  Abort 
      Legsweep  +2 OCV  -1 DCV  5d6 Strike, Target Falls 
      Punch/Snap Kick  +0 OCV  +2 DCV  6d6 Strike 
      Side/Spin Kick  -2 OCV  +1 DCV  8d6 Strike 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 02:58:26 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Density Decrease: (formerly Non shrinking shrinking) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 11/27/97 5:47:12 PM, filkhero@usa.net wrote: 
>>for reducing density, I'll be glad to drop all ideas of "no-size 
>>shrinking". 
>Like, Change Environment, perhaps? 
 
Okay, right, CE was a bad idea.. 
 
Here's an idea. Density Increase has a cousin called density decrease. 
It exists as an extention of the chart that comes with DI. 
 
When Density Increase is reversed, it becomes a non-standard power  
with which  a character may become weaker, lighter, 
and physically less tough. 
 
  POINTS  KILOS  STR  KB"  PD  ED 
    15     800   15   -3   3   3  Density Increase  (same as book) 
    10     400   10   -2   2   2     "      " 
     5     200    5   -1   1   1     "      " 
      
     0     100    0    0   0   0  no points 
      
     5     50%  85%    2  -2  -2  Density Decrease  (new part) 
    10     25%  70%    4  -5  -5     "      " 
    15     13%  55%    6 -10 -10     "      " 
    20      6%  40%    8  -5  -5     "      " 
    25      3%  25%   10  -2  -2     "      " 
    30      2%  10%   12  -1  -1     "      " 
    35      1%   1%   14   0   0     "      "           (stop here) 
    40  Buy Desolidification 
 
For each 5 points of density decrease, the  characters total 
weight gets cut in half again, their STR is reduced 15%, 
their KB (and throw distance) increase, and their PD & ED 
vary. See the chart for exact game effects. 
Some special effects allow some of the "negative" effects 
columns to be bought off at a .25 Advantage to the power. 
 
As you get less Dense, you get lighter. You also get weaker. 
You also get more susceptible to damage, but 
only up to a point, and then your wispiness starts 
to prevent damage again. 
You also get susceptible to knockback, and therefore 
your throwable weight/distance increases. 
Minimum cost, 5 points. 
Only a maximum of 35 points of DensDec may be purchased. 
At 40 or more points, you are buying Desolid instead. 
 
Again, I'm trying to avoid any physics questions or "reality", 
I'm trying to set up an example of real game powers that 
allow for the special effects described. Shrinking is the flip side 
of Growth, this chart could be the flip side of DI. 
-- 
Elliott 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"Guy Hoyle the Ineffable\" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net&> 
        \"Multiple recipients of Hero\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 97 08:15:33  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Keeping Track of Damage to NPCs 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sat, 29 Nov 1997 14:38:31 +0000, Guy Hoyle the Ineffable wrote: 
 
>Does anyone have a streamlined way of keeping track of damage to NPCs  
>in combat? I find it hard to determine things like being stunned or  
>knocked unconscious, especially when I have a number of different  
>types of agents running around.  Wayne Shaw once posted such a  
>system, but I seem to have lost my copy of it. 
 
For minor characters, it's easy: just say that they can take N hits. EG 
an agent can take 2 hits - hits from the Brick counting double. 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 97 08:15:33 
X-To: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org&>        "Guy Hoyle the Ineffable" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net&>        "Multiple recipients of Hero" <hero-l@october.com> 
Subject: Re: Keeping Track of Damage to NPCs 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
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On Sat, 29 Nov 1997 14:38:31 +0000, Guy Hoyle the Ineffable wrote: 
 
>Does anyone have a streamlined way of keeping track of damage to NPCs  
>in combat? I find it hard to determine things like being stunned or  
>knocked unconscious, especially when I have a number of different  
>types of agents running around.  Wayne Shaw once posted such a  
>system, but I seem to have lost my copy of it. 
 
For minor characters, it's easy: just say that they can take N hits. EG 
an agent can take 2 hits - hits from the Brick counting double. 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"Stainless Steel Rat\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 97 08:43:02  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Bio-genetic powers 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 29 Nov 1997 21:44:00 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes: 
> 
>q> So what - just make the effect Uncontrolled, and give the Damage Shield 
>q> advantage the partial limitation, 'Only when BODY damage taken (-1)' 
> 
>This still does not change the fact that a Damage Shield will not activate 
>when hit by ranged attacks. 
 
Since when is that a limitation on Damage Shield? One of the examples 
of Damage Shield in the BBB is a ranged attack. 
 
>The cleanest way to work it is with Trigger: when Body damage taken.  Then 
>use an Autofire RKA as the basis for the attack itself. 
 
Sounds equally good. Make it a Gradual Effect, too, to simulate the 
going through floors bit, and the ability to remove an affected piece 
of armour. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 08:45:18 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Re: Density Decrease (formerly Non shrinking shrinking) 
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org" 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
	Didn't we hash out Density Decrease not more than a week ago 
on a different thread?  Being lighter than you normally are, well, I  
can see that being an advantage.  But why would anyone actually  
pay points to have a decreased stregnth, PD, ED and be more susceptiable 
to Knockback?  The only advantageous part of that power is the weight 
reduction, and that's already covered by shrinking. 
	I don't see the justification of 'your whispiness starts to  
prevent damage again.'  That's assuming alot...  making the power like 
partial Desolidification (probally better modeled with Damage Reduction 
or Armor with the appropiate f/x).  What about MoonMan who can become as light 
as a feather, but stays just as tangible as before?  Sure, he has Jumping, 
Gliding, and Flight (bought with the F/X of Levitation) linked in an EC of 
'Moon-like gravitational powers' to that there Density Decrease... 
	And the fluxation in the PD/ED charts makes the power non-linear. 
With shrinking, you do get certain penalties to Characteristics, but you also 
get advantages to balance it out ("Hey, what's that on the ground?  Looks like 
a little ma..."  *POW*  'Thanks Captain Shrink-o!  You've really saved the day 
again!'  "Thanks to my super-shrink-o uppercut and the fine police officers 
of Metro City, young Timmy.  Now run along and join the other shrink-scouts 
so you can be there when Mayor Johnson presents me with the key to the city." 
'Super neat-o!' 
	...of course, this Density Decrease would do wonders if it was UAO. 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 06:24:38 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Bio-genetic powers 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:43 AM 11/30/97, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote: 
>>q> So what - just make the effect Uncontrolled, and give the Damage Shield 
>>q> advantage the partial limitation, 'Only when BODY damage taken (-1)' 
>> 
>>This still does not change the fact that a Damage Shield will not activate 
>>when hit by ranged attacks. 
> 
>Since when is that a limitation on Damage Shield? One of the examples 
>of Damage Shield in the BBB is a ranged attack. 
 
   If you're referring to the Mental Damage Shield, this is a special case 
for Mental Powers.  Read the description of Damage Shield carefully -- 
particularly the first sentence of the second paragraph -- and you'll see 
that a Damage Shield is meant for hand-to-hand use. 
 
>>The cleanest way to work it is with Trigger: when Body damage taken.  Then 
>>use an Autofire RKA as the basis for the attack itself. 
> 
>Sounds equally good. Make it a Gradual Effect, too, to simulate the 
>going through floors bit, and the ability to remove an affected piece 
>of armour. 
 
   No, Trigger is much better because (a) it does activate when the 
character is hit by a ranged attack, and (b) it will affect something other 
than the attacker. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 06:54:37 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Scooby Doo 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:59 AM 11/30/97 +0000, ORT2 wrote: 
>Guy Hoyle the Ineffable wrote: 
>>  
>> I don't have any character writeups, but I do have a rather sinister 
>> interpretation of Scooby-Doo and the gang at 
>> http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/scooby.htm 
> 
>After checking out the above web page this is all I can say about it: 
> 
>Guy, are you serious?  If you really believe that, then why do you play 
>any sort of role playing game?  If this is a joke, then please excuse my 
>little rant, but if not, I am speechless. 
 
   It's a pretty obvious joke, based (directly or indirectly) on something 
that some get-a-lifer did back in the 60s to the song "Puff the Magic 
Dragon" (and in that case the writer meant it). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 11:46:00 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Just some more confusion. 
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org" 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 1 
 
	Tiki has Telekenesis.  He can use it to fly around (Flight), 
and to carry his friends along with him. 
	Tiki should buy Flight UAO for his friends.  What's the limit 
Tink could carry while flying?  His STR or his TK's STR?  Could 
TK 'carry' and object along with him using his TK while flying? 
	If Tiki picked up an object (like a log), and wanted it 
to accelerate towards something, how fast would it travel and how 
much damage would it do? 
	Mechanically, how would TK_ based on EGo, Invisible power 
effects (except for mental) effect a target?  Would it do BODY? 
What defense wouuld be applied against it?  Would STR be rolled to break 
out of this particular type of TK's grab? 
 
From: "Robert" <baron@stlnet.com> 
Subject: Fw: FBI report on Ritual/"Satanic" Abuse 
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 13:48:29 -0600 
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---------- 
> From: Robert <baron@stlnet.com> 
> To: Bob Simpson <rsimpson@beasys.com&> , champ-l@omg.org 
> Subject: Re: FBI report on Ritual/"Satanic" Abuse 
> Date: Sunday, November 30, 1997 10:05 AM 
>  
> For those of you who MAY have thought that I posted the FBI report and 
was 
> the original author and didn't remember the last week or so ago when it 
was 
> originally posted by someone else, it isn't mine. I was trying to bulk 
mail 
> my own email address so that I could transfer my old emails to my new 
> computer and let my fiance' (who will be my wife in five days) have our 
old 
> computer all to herself. Bob Simpson is the original sender. I am not.  
>  
> ---------- 
> > From: Bob Simpson <rsimpson@beasys.com> 
> > To: Rob Kemp <baron@mail.stlnet.com> 
> > Subject: FBI report on Ritual/"Satanic" Abuse 
> > Date: Wednesday, November 26, 1997 5:19 PM 
> >  
> > I'm curious as to why you reposted my original note to the champ-l list 
> without any note as to its source.  It was kind of you to save it (and I 
> hope you found the attributions useful) but I'd hate to think that you 
> might get any nasty note from folks that thought you were the original 
> author. 
> >  
> > -- Bob Simpson <simpson@netcom.com> 
> >  
> > >Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org> 
> > >Received: from beasys.com by svlhome1.beasys.com 
(SMI-8.6/SMI-BEA3_SVR4) 
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> > >	Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:53:02 -0600 (CST) 
> > >Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:53:02 -0600 (CST) 
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> > >X-Sender: baron@mail.stlnet.com 
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> > >Mime-Version: 1.0 
> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 
> > >From: Rob Kemp <baron@mail.stlnet.com> 
> > >Subject: FBI report on Ritual/"Satanic" Abuse 
> > >Cc: champ-l@omg.org, Collie <collie@netcom.com&> 
> > >        Scott Ruggels <scott.ruggels@3do.com> 
> > >Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
> > >Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
> > >X-Hero: champ-l 
> > >To: champ-l@omg.org 
> > >Content-Length: 2337 
> > >Status:    
> > > 
> > >At 07:54 24 10 97 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> > >> (It's also pretty clear, especially from his opening comments under 
> "The 
> > >>Satanic Cult Conspiracy," that he doesn't know what he's talking 
about 
> when 
> > >>it comes to factual matters.  Any cop I've ever been in contact with 
> and 
> > >>discussed the topic with knows for an absolute fact that there really 
> are 
> > >>Satanists out there making blood sacrifices, and sometimes human 
> > >>sacrifices. 
> > > 
> > >Many of the law enforcement officers I've spoken to also "knows for an 
 
> > >absolute fact that" role-playing games are a tool of the devil.  Like  
> > >yourself, I think it is important to discount the "conventional 
widsom" 
> of  
> > >any group without evidence. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >>Shomashak wrote it off as paranoid superstitious poppycock, 
> > >>and as far as I can tell did so without doing any research on the 
> matter at 
> > >>all.) 
> > > 
> > >I can't comment on anything written by the "Shomashak" person you 
> mention,  
> > >but as to available research, you might start here:  
> > >http://www.religioustolerance.org/ra_study.htm 
> > > 
> > >They also have a copy of a comprehensive FBI study of childhood ritual 
 
> > >abuse: Kenneth V. Lanning, "Investigator's Guide to Allegations of 
> 'Ritual'  
> > >Child Abuse", Behavioral Science Unit, National Center for the 
Analysis 
> of  
> > >Violent Crime, Federal Bureau of Investigation, FBI Academy, Quantico, 
 
> > >Virginia 22135 (1992) <http://www.religioustolerance.org/fbi_01.htm> 
> > > 
> > >Kenneth Lanning is a Supervisory Special Agent at the FBI Academy in  
> > >Virginia who has combated the sexual victimization of children since 
> 1981.  
> > >He police forces. works at the FBI Behavioral Science Unit which 
assists 
>  
> > >police forces throughout the US. The group is often called in as 
> consultants  
> > >by local and state police forces. 
> > > 
> > >A short quote from the conclusion of the report: 
> > >	For at least eight years American law enforcement has been 
aggressively 
>  
> > >investigating the allegations of victims of ritual abuse. There is 
> little or  
> > >no evidence for the portion of their allegations that deals with 
> large-scale  
> > >baby breeding, human sacrifice, and organized satanic conspiracies. 
> > > 
> > >Hope this helps people find the relevant research and draw their own 
> > >conclusions. 
> > > 
> > >-- Bob 
> > > 
> > >>>>>  [Modern Education] has produced a vast population able to read 
but 
> > >unable to distinguish what is worth reading, an easy prey to 
sensations 
> and 
> > >cheap appeals.  	-- G. M. Trevelyan (1942) <<<< 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 97 20:59:16  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Just some more confusion. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 30 Nov 1997 11:46:00 -0500 (EST), ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
 
>	Tiki has Telekenesis.  He can use it to fly around (Flight), 
>and to carry his friends along with him. 
>	Tiki should buy Flight UAO for his friends.  What's the limit 
>Tink could carry while flying?  
 
Tiki should buy Flight Usable BY Others. 
 
> His STR or his TK's STR?  Could 
>TK 'carry' and object along with him using his TK while flying? 
>	If Tiki picked up an object (like a log), and wanted it 
>to accelerate towards something, how fast would it travel and how 
>much damage would it do? 
>	Mechanically, how would TK_ based on EGo, Invisible power 
>effects (except for mental) effect a target?  Would it do BODY? 
>What defense wouuld be applied against it?  Would STR be rolled to break 
>out of this particular type of TK's grab? 
 
You seem to be going about this the wrong way: think of all the effects 
Tiki can do (Flight, TK, EB vs PD, RKA [when Tiki picks up a nasty 
pointy bit of metal], etc) and put them in a framework, either a 
Multipower or Elemental Control. 
 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 97 21:15:09  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Character experience 
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I've been having a think (always dangerous!) 
 
Would people agree that there is a general progression of experience 
reflected by cost in the various frameworks? 
 
With a multipower, generally a character can only use one or two powers 
at the same time. 
 
With an Elemental Control, a character can demonstrate their skill by 
performing all their tricks at the same time. 
 
With a Variable Power Pool, a character can demonstrate their mastery 
by doing *anything* [related to the SFX and guided by the Limitations, 
of course]. 
 
Comments? And yes, I know that a VPP can be cheaper than an EC, but 
you've got the AP cap. 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 20:46:27 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Dream Powers 
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	How would you simulate a character who could 'dream walk' -- 
enter another character's mind through their dreams. 
 
	Also, I've noticed that today I only received 5 messages from this 
mailing list.  Is the mailer down again, or is is just a slow day? 
 
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 00:36:33 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Re: Just some more confusion. 
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On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
 
All answers use _The Ultimate Mentalist_ as their basis. 
 
> 	Tiki should buy Flight UAO for his friends.  What's the limit 
> Tink could carry while flying?  His STR or his TK's STR?  Could 
> TK 'carry' and object along with him using his TK while flying? 
 
Normally, you can carry up to your STR in weight while flying with no 
penalty.  In the case above, I'd would say up to your TK STR.  Tiki should 
have no problems carrying something along with his TK while he uses his 
flight power. 
 
> 	If Tiki picked up an object (like a log), and wanted it 
> to accelerate towards something, how fast would it travel and how 
> much damage would it do? 
 
Speed is based on throwing distance.  TUM recommends using the "Standing 
Throw" column on the Throwing Table.  Figure the weight of the object and 
the STR of TK, look it up on the chart and the distance number is how far 
the object can be moved per phase. 
 
Example: Shion has 60 STR TK.  She picks up a small runabout (weight 
800kg).  This gives her 35 extra STR to throw it.  Looking at the Throwing 
Table, a 35 STR Standing Throw lets her move the car 14" per Phase.   
 
I think that since most TK is continous (you pick up and push the object 
the whole phase, not pick up and let go), you should use the Running 
Throw.  If you do so, Shion can move the car at 28" per Phase. 
 
Impact damage is based on the STR of the TK.  So... Shion would do 12d6 to 
anyone caught in the path of the object.  Since the runabout is 2x1 hexes, 
she can whack quite a few people at one time. 
 
Naturally, if Shion moves the runabout over to an open vehicle elevator 
shaft and lets it drop, the damage will be a *lot* greater than 12d6..  
 
> 	Mechanically, how would TK_ based on EGo, Invisible power 
> effects (except for mental) effect a target?  Would it do BODY? 
> What defense wouuld be applied against it?  Would STR be rolled to break 
> out of this particular type of TK's grab? 
  
TUM talks about this, and here is what is says (boiled down to basics). 
 
1) The character with BOECV TK uses his EGO vs the target's DEX. 
2) Yes, it does Body.  It is a physical attack, but works like a mental 
power for things like LOS and Range Mods.  Defense is PD of any type.   
3) BOECV TK has no range penalties and is only limited by LOS.  TK can be 
indirect by default, allowing poeple to affect objects trhough windows and 
the like. 
4) You can use STR to break out.  A +1/2 Advantage makes one use EGO.  If 
you do this, the EGO costs END and can be pushed.  Mental Defense does not 
help.  Note that in some games (like a PSI-cop scenario) this might be a 
disad instead. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: "Vance Scott" <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca> 
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 06:51:56 -500 
X-To: hero-l@october.com 
Subject: Re: Bio-genetic powers 
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>  h >  How do you simulate the power/effect of acidic blood?  Think  
>  h > ALIEN.  
>   
> Damage Shield that only works when your opponent uses a physcial  
> Killing Attack.  
 
4d6 RKA/ Body Drain is a real possiblity too. 
+1/2 Area Effect (1 Hex) Spurting 
+1/2 sticky 
Continous Charges 
Charges (after all the character only has so much blood). 
Trigger  (body taken) 
Activation (11-) you aren't necessarily hit by the acid blood. 
 
>  h >  How do you simulate characters that can be 'deconstructed'  
>  h > (i.e. a clockwork golem that can have their arms removed; the removed  
>  h > arms cannot function at range)?  
>  h >  
 
This limitation would best be simulated using a physical limitation  
weakness. The character can be disassembled loses abilities  
associated with body part. 15 - 20 points. 
 
Vance Scott 
 
Vanquisher of all foes 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca> 
From: "Vance Scott" <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca> 
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 06:51:57 -500 
Subject: Re: Unusual character concepts : American Star 
Reply-to: vances@sympatico.ca 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
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>     You could stop her with a knockout, but if if still conscious she could 
> recover any injury damage in 
> mere seconds. Even so far as regrouping all those splattered cells together 
> within a viewable amount of time. 
>  
>     Something I've always had trouble doing in Hero. 
 
Try buying regeneration equal to your body value or more. I know it's  
expensive, but such a powerful regeneration should be expensive.  
Maybe not as expensive as this will be, but oh well. 
 
 
Vance Scott 
 
Vanquisher of all foes 
 
X-Sender: nezmaster@ntr.net 
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 07:44:43 -0500 
From: Nez Master <nezmaster@ntr.net> 
Subject: Re: Dream Powers 
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At 08:46 PM 11/30/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>	How would you simulate a character who could 'dream walk' -- 
>enter another character's mind through their dreams. 
> 
Telepathy, Mental Illusions, Mind Link, and Mind Scan can be combined to 
create this effect depdning on how much control you want over the dreams. 
Add "target must be asleep" as a -1 limitation. (at least).  
 
8 d6 Mind Link (target must be asleep -1) (does not reveal location/only 
for targetting -1/4) 17 
 
You can probably surmise the rest for whatever you want to do. 
 
 
>	Also, I've noticed that today I only received 5 messages from this 
>mailing list.  Is the mailer down again, or is is just a slow day? 
> 
> 
-------------------------Nez Master-------------------- 
      Second founder of the backwards philosophy 
	       http://www.ntr.net/~nezmaster 
	    		Nothing is certain 
_______________________________________________________ 
	 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Re: Dream Powers 
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:30:04 -0500 
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>How would you simulate a character who could 'dream walk' -- 
>enter another character's mind through their dreams. 
 
Taken from http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/1905/haym15l.html: 
 
-- 
 
The only dream power given in The Ultimate Mentalist was telepathy 
versus sleeping targets, but what about a dream controller who shares 
the dream with the target? With this type of dream power, both of them 
control the dream, but the dreamer with the greatest willpower and most 
creative use of dream space prevails -- kind of a cross between Marvel's 
Nightmask, the movie Dreamscape, and Piers Anthony's Tarot series.  
 
Example: Morpheus enters a trance, and sends his mind to find his 
sleeping foe, The Reaper. He enters The Reaper's dream space, and finds 
himself on a dark mountain pathway lined with dead trees and clutter. 
Nearby, he hears a horse-drawn wagon approaching. He takes cover behind 
a large rock, and sees The Reaper in a Death Carriage, drawn by a 
skeletal horse.  
 
Morpheus wills a large troll to come from around the bend and demand 
that the rider turn back. When The Reaper insists that he must press on, 
the troll swings at him with his club. The troll hits and wounds The 
Reaper, who gets knocked back at an angle where he notices Morpheus 
hiding. The Reaper wills the troll to notice the hiding Morpheus and 
attack him instead.  
 
Here's my attempt:  
 
Mind Scan (only versus sleeping targets -1) 
Mental Illusions (only versus sleeping targets, Full Side Effect: Mental 
Illusions)  
 
The side effect is of being in the dreamscape illusion along with the 
dreamer. Since the dream is controlled by both characters, only EGO and 
use of setting modifiers determine the victor -- the illusion power is 
the same.  
 
-- 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Dream Powers 
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Date: 01 Dec 1997 10:39:39 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "NM" == Nez Master <nezmaster@ntr.net> writes: 
 
NM> Telepathy, Mental Illusions, Mind Link, and Mind Scan can be combined 
NM> to create this effect depdning on how much control you want over the 
NM> dreams.  Add "target must be asleep" as a -1 limitation. (at least). 
 
I have mailed Mr. Midnight about nailing down the effects a bit more. 
 
But without that, I have a simpler idea: Clairsentience. 
 
NM> 8 d6 Mind Link (target must be asleep -1) (does not reveal location/only 
NM> for targetting -1/4) 17 
 
Mind Link requires a willing target, and there are no dice involved. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 07:41:06 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Just some more confusion. 
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At 11:46 AM 11/30/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
> Tiki has Telekenesis.  He can use it to fly around (Flight), 
>and to carry his friends along with him. 
> Tiki should buy Flight UAO for his friends.  What's the limit 
>Tink could carry while flying?  His STR or his TK's STR?  Could 
>TK 'carry' and object along with him using his TK while flying? 
 
   From what I can see, Tiki should *not* buy Flight UAO for his friends. 
His telekinetic powers don't enable them or cause them to fly.  Rather, he 
carries them telekinetically.  He therefore could carry them with his 
regular TK. 
 
> If Tiki picked up an object (like a log), and wanted it 
>to accelerate towards something, how fast would it travel and how 
>much damage would it do? 
 
   Treat the log like a club being used with normal STR.  It can travel as 
far per Phase as Tiki could hurl it doing a Standing Throw with the amount 
of STR in his Telekinesis (see page 174 of the BBB). 
 
> Mechanically, how would TK_ based on EGo, Invisible power 
>effects (except for mental) effect a target?  Would it do BODY? 
>What defense wouuld be applied against it?  Would STR be rolled to break 
>out of this particular type of TK's grab? 
 
   TK BOECV is a matter that has been hashed over more than once on the 
list, and it seems that everyone has a different take.  This is mine (and 
it differs from Steve Long's in The Ultimate Mentalist, detailed to you by 
Michael Surbrook). 
   TK BOECV is the Power used for "Puppeteering" -- that is, literally 
taking control of the target's body.  (It is different from simple Mind 
Control because of the dynamic involved; Puppeteering is more like grabbing 
someone's arm and making it do something, while MC is reaching into the 
person's will and subverting it.  The former is a STR contest, the latter 
an EGO contest.)  It cannot to any damage directly, though it could be used 
to force the target to jump off a cliff or something similar to do indirect 
damage. 
   This form of TK is typically bought with Fine Manipulation, and the 
"Affects All Parts" Limitation (even though that sounds contradictory). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 11:33:19 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Cause Pain 
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	Hurt-Waltz can cause pain by touching her opponents. 
	What effects would 'pain' have on a target, and how would you work out 
the power(s) involved? 
 
Subject: Ping! 
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 13:08:33 -0400 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
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Either the list is real quiet, or is down. This is a test. 
 
                                         |  David A. Fair 
        Think Different                  |  SDS International 
                                         |  dfair@sdslink.com 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Cause Pain 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 01 Dec 1997 12:09:25 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "AAM" == ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> writes: 
 
AAM> 	Hurt-Waltz can cause pain by touching her opponents. 
AAM> 	What effects would 'pain' have on a target, and how would you work out 
AAM> the power(s) involved? 
 
I dunnow... a solid 2x4 upside the head hurts quite a bit. :) 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:16:58 -0500 (EST) 
Subject:  Re: Density Decrease (formerly Non shrinking shrinking) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 16 
 
In a message dated 11/30/97 8:58 AM, RAVANOS wrote: 
>reduction, and that's already covered by shrinking. 
>	I don't see the justification of 'your whispiness starts to  
>prevent damage again.'  That's assuming alot...  making the power like 
>partial Desolidification  
 
At some point, Decreasing your Density crosses over into Desolidification. 
If my molecules are disappearing or spreading apart I'm not going to be 
very solid. And who said the powers all had to be linear? 
Besides: 
I don't think the guy who asked 15 different "how do I" questions 
to the list ought to tell me what works & what doesn't   :) 
-- 
Elliott 
 
<spade> 
It's called "thinking outside the box", you should look into it. 
</spade> 
 
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:41:59 -0200 (EDT) 
From: Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria <gevaerd@laranjeiras.lci.ufrj.br> 
Reply-To: Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria <gevaerd@laranjeiras.lci.ufrj.br> 
Subject: Something wrong with force field cost 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 17 
 
    A force field bought to No endurance would be the same price as armor. 
But it would not be persistent and would have visible power effects. Even 
if it is bought to persistent and invisible power effects, and receive the 
always on disadvantage, it would be more expensive (hmmm... it is possible 
there is a case that this is not true, but mostly is). 
    Does anyone know why this, or did I say something wrong ? 
 
 
                               []s. 
 
 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:46:11 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re:  Non shrinking shrinking 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Who posted this original question?  
my mail doesn't go back that far, I looked... 
 
Wasn't the original idea to be lightweight? 
Beyond my chart some simple ways to simulate that could be: 
 
Is DD a power? 
Superleap or Gliding, No conscious control, triggered by being  
thrown or hit.  (i.e. Usable by Others Against Self ?!?) 
 
Multiform,  only other form available is a lightweight version of self. 
 
Shapeshift, +1 Advantage, Allows Mass Decrease.  
(IMHO, the writers of shape-shift assumed 2 things: No-one would  
ever want to decrease their mass, and that decreasing density implied  
a size change) 
 
Is DD a disad? 
Knockback Increase, a Physical Limitation. 
 
Reverse the values in the DI chart and call it that level of Disad. 
-- 
Elliott 
 
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:57:14 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Cause Pain 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
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>	Hurt-Waltz can cause pain by touching her opponents. 
>	What effects would 'pain' have on a target, and how would you work out 
>the power(s) involved? 
 
Energy Blast, NND [non-standard nervous system], No Range, No Knockback, 
maybe Invisible to Sight/Sound groups. Continious if you like. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:26:06 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Something wrong with force field cost 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria writes: 
>     A force field bought to No endurance would be the same price as armor. 
> But it would not be persistent and would have visible power effects. Even 
> if it is bought to persistent and invisible power effects, and receive the 
> always on disadvantage, it would be more expensive (hmmm... it is possible 
> there is a case that this is not true, but mostly is). 
>     Does anyone know why this, or did I say something wrong ? 
 
Except under fairly special circumstances, force field is less efficient than 
armor; this is somewhat historical in nature (long ago, there was 'damage 
resistance', which cost 15 points to make half your PD and ED resistant, or 30 
points for all, and 'force field'.  Armor came later).  There is no 
particularly good fix for this, though in my current game we don't use END, 
which significantly increases the utility of force fields. 
 
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 13:43:01 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Re: Density Decrease (formerly Non shrinking shrinking) 
X-VMS-To: IN%"Egyptoid@aol.com", IN%"champ-l@omg.org" 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
	...the only thing I don't get is the 'whispy-ness' part.  I can 
make a reverse gravometric field around myself, making me lighter.  It 
dosen't mean I become 'whispy' or 'desolid' even if I weigh a pound. 
	If the power is truly the inverse of Density Increase, then Density 
Decrease should be able to simulate the opposite effects. 
	If the effects 'cross over' into Desolidification, then buy 
Desolidification, or buy a power that simulates 'partial Desolidification' 
(Damage Reduction and Armor with the Sf/x 'Attacks pass through' come to mind). 
	I might be wrong, but all of the powers in the HERO system don't 
flux back on themselves; at a medium range, the power becomes more 
disadvantageous, without any change in it's cost or compensation.  At higher 
and lower levels, the ammount of lost PD and ED are the same while everything 
else changes. 
 
	...and I ask alot of questions because I haven't been gifted with 
years of Champions gaming experience.  A lot of my "how do I" questions 
I already have answers for, but I feel it would be better over all to hear 
what others have to say about a particular power, effect, or ruling. 
Sure, we all have our own approaches...  but that is what is so illuminating 
about being part of this list-- sharing ideas.  Even when my opinion has 
differed from an individual, I still feel as if it's granted me with 
insight into the game-- or gotten me more in touch with the 'feel' 
of the system.  Besides, you guys have prevented my from busting many a 
precious brain cell!  :) 
 
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:46:48 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Okay, here is a totally useless but amusing question: 
 
What are the top five fight sequences you have ever seen (any media)? 
This can include live action, animated, comic book, what ever.  The only 
requirement is that it be between people, not space ships or fighter 
planes. 
 
My five? 
 
(in no real order) 
 
1) The Thing and Johnny Storm vs Terrax in FF issues... (uh, damn, I 
forgot).  Anyway this is the three issue series that had Doc Doom and the 
Silver Surfer show up (And Reed Richards put on trial for saving Galactus) 
 
2) Chun Li vs Vega in "Streetfighter II the Animated Movie". 
 
3) Jet Li vs "The Killing Machine" at the end of "Fist of Legend". 
 
4) Son Goku (and Vegita) vs Metal Kooler in Dragonball Z Movie 6 
 
5) Jackie Chan (you *knew* there had to be a Jacke Chan fight scene in 
here, didn't you?), Samo Hung and Yeung Biao vs Yuen Wah, Bennie the Jet 
and a zillion mooks at the end of "Dragons Forever". 
 
Honorable mentions include: 
The opening gunfight in "Hard Boiled" 
The final gunfight in "The Killer" 
Chow Yun Fat vs some mooks in in the begining of "Full Contact" 
Jubei's fight with Tessa at the begining of "Ninja Scroll" 
Jubei's fight with Genma at the end of "Ninja Scroll" 
Jubei and Kagero's fight with Utsutsu in the middle of "Ninja Scroll" 
(hmm... seem to be in a rut there) 
Deunan Knute vs a bunch of terrorists in a collapsed building in Appleseed 
book 4 (I think) 
Bruce Lee vs a zillion goons in Dr. Han's basement in "Enter the Dragon" 
Jackie Chan vs Ken Lo in "Drunken Master II" 
Jackie Chan vs Bennie the Jet in "Wheels on Meals" 
 
Hmm... I seem to be a bit sparse in the comic department... 
Okay, one last one then: 
 
Manji vs the other immortal guy in Call of the Worm #3 ("Blade of the 
Immortal"). 
 
Uh... hmmm only one western comic ... oh well. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
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From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:42:36 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
The wedding battle from Big Trouble in Little China, especially Wang 
versus the spirit sword guy. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 97 19:48:26  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Bio-genetic powers 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 30 Nov 1997 06:24:38 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>At 08:43 AM 11/30/97, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote: 
>>>q> So what - just make the effect Uncontrolled, and give the Damage Shield 
>>>q> advantage the partial limitation, 'Only when BODY damage taken (-1)' 
>>> 
>>>This still does not change the fact that a Damage Shield will not activate 
>>>when hit by ranged attacks. 
>> 
>>Since when is that a limitation on Damage Shield? One of the examples 
>>of Damage Shield in the BBB is a ranged attack. 
> 
>   If you're referring to the Mental Damage Shield, this is a special case 
>for Mental Powers.  Read the description of Damage Shield carefully -- 
>particularly the first sentence of the second paragraph -- and you'll see 
>that a Damage Shield is meant for hand-to-hand use. 
> 
>>>The cleanest way to work it is with Trigger: when Body damage taken.  Then 
>>>use an Autofire RKA as the basis for the attack itself. 
>> 
>>Sounds equally good. Make it a Gradual Effect, too, to simulate the 
>>going through floors bit, and the ability to remove an affected piece 
>>of armour. 
> 
>   No, Trigger is much better because (a) it does activate when the 
>character is hit by a ranged attack, and (b) it will affect something other 
>than the attacker. 
 
Ah, a *much* better reason. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 97 19:51:00  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Dream Powers 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 30 Nov 1997 20:46:27 -0500 (EST), ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
 
>	How would you simulate a character who could 'dream walk' -- 
>enter another character's mind through their dreams. 
 
Mental Illusions or Telepathy, Only when Target is Asleep. 
 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Density Decrease (formerly Non shrinking shrinking) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 01 Dec 1997 14:52:42 -0500 
Lines: 34 
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>>>>> "AAM" == ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> writes: 
 
AAM> If the power is truly the inverse of Density Increase, then Density 
AAM> Decrease should be able to simulate the opposite effects. 
 
If Desolidification = totally insubstantial, then Density Decrease could = 
somewhat insubstantial.  Damage Reduction is a good way of simulating this 
effect. 
 
An important thing to remember is not to get hung up on what a power or 
effect is called when trying to determine what power(s) to use to simulate 
a particular effect.  As I just mentioned, a "density decrease" effect by 
which the character becomes less substantial than normal (volume remains 
the same but mass decreases), but not completely insubstantial and isolated 
from the physical world, physical and energy Damage Reduction will simulate 
this effect reasonably well. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 01 Dec 1997 15:06:21 -0500 
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>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes: 
 
MS> Deunan Knute vs a bunch of terrorists in a collapsed building in 
MS> Appleseed book 4 (I think) 
 
Yup. 
 
How could you have forgotten Johnny Cage vs. Scorpion and Liu Kang 
vs. Reptile, both from "Mortal Kombat".  Both were beautifully 
choreographed (Robin Shou's work).  Liu Kang vs. Shang Tsung, from the same 
movie, has an interesting hit: the first time Liu connected, Robin Shou 
really did connect, and the blood was real.  It was planned that way.  You 
can't get more real than real. :) 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
X-Sender: nezmaster@ntr.net 
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:08:44 -0500 
From: Nez Master <nezmaster@ntr.net> 
Subject: Re: Dream Powers 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:39 AM 12/1/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "NM" == Nez Master <nezmaster@ntr.net> writes: 
> 
>NM> Telepathy, Mental Illusions, Mind Link, and Mind Scan can be combined 
>NM> to create this effect depdning on how much control you want over the 
>NM> dreams.  Add "target must be asleep" as a -1 limitation. (at least). 
> 
>I have mailed Mr. Midnight about nailing down the effects a bit more. 
> 
>But without that, I have a simpler idea: Clairsentience. 
> 
>NM> 8 d6 Mind Link (target must be asleep -1) (does not reveal location/only 
>NM> for targetting -1/4) 17 
> 
>Mind Link requires a willing target, and there are no dice involved. 
> 
 
Argh..i meant mind scan..i thought mind scan..i didn't WRITE mind scan..sorry 
 
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> 
>--  
>Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
>PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
>                                    \  
> 
> 
-------------------------Nez Master-------------------- 
      Second founder of the backwards philosophy 
	       http://www.ntr.net/~nezmaster 
	    		Nothing is certain 
_______________________________________________________ 
	 
 
X-Sender: nezmaster@ntr.net 
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:08:49 -0500 
From: Nez Master <nezmaster@ntr.net> 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:46 PM 12/1/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>Okay, here is a totally useless but amusing question: 
> 
>What are the top five fight sequences you have ever seen (any media)? 
>This can include live action, animated, comic book, what ever.  The only 
>requirement is that it be between people, not space ships or fighter 
>planes. 
> 
1> Final Gunfight in The Killer makes my number one (I noticed it got 
honarable mention from you. 
 
2> The brawl In True Romance (Christian Slater versus Gary Oldman) 
 
3> A battle in a long gone comic between Doctor Strange and The hulk. 
(mostly because it was funny) 
 
4> Spider man vs Juggernaut..becuase it showed the futility of a high-speed 
low damage character vs. a high def character. (wonderful shot full of 
after images of spider man, hitting juggy 10+ times while juggy stands there) 
 
5> Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragon 
 
 
>My five? 
 
> 
I haven't seen most of your favorites. But at least you like John Woo. 
 
>5) Jackie Chan (you *knew* there had to be a Jacke Chan fight scene in 
>here, didn't you?), Samo Hung and Yeung Biao vs Yuen Wah, Bennie the Jet 
>and a zillion mooks at the end of "Dragons Forever". 
 
Bruce Lee does it better. 
> 
>Honorable mentions include: 
>The opening gunfight in "Hard Boiled" 
>The final gunfight in "The Killer" 
>Chow Yun Fat vs some mooks in in the begining of "Full Contact" 
>Jubei's fight with Tessa at the begining of "Ninja Scroll" 
>Jubei's fight with Genma at the end of "Ninja Scroll" 
>Jubei and Kagero's fight with Utsutsu in the middle of "Ninja Scroll" 
>(hmm... seem to be in a rut there) 
 
So I take it you would reccomend the film "Ninja Scroll" for our viewing 
pleasure? 
 
>Deunan Knute vs a bunch of terrorists in a collapsed building in Appleseed 
>book 4 (I think) 
>Bruce Lee vs a zillion goons in Dr. Han's basement in "Enter the Dragon" 
>Jackie Chan vs Ken Lo in "Drunken Master II" 
>Jackie Chan vs Bennie the Jet in "Wheels on Meals" 
> 
>Hmm... I seem to be a bit sparse in the comic department... 
>Okay, one last one then: 
> 
>Manji vs the other immortal guy in Call of the Worm #3 ("Blade of the 
>Immortal"). 
> 
>Uh... hmmm only one western comic ... oh well. 
> 
My Honarable mentions 
 
* Anything else with Bruce Lee. 
* The final Scene of Big Trouble in little china 
* Princess bride "You killed my father" scene (from the point where he runs 
away, all the way through) 
* Project Ako (which is almost one long fight scene in and of itself) 
* Elementals vs someone electircal (in which said electrical villian fries 
his own team in a story that made it obvious the book was based on a game) 
* Ripley vs Alien in Aliens 
* Any combat from Raiders of the Lost Ark 
* Sonny Chiba in Streetfighter 
* theres so many..i'll stop here.. 
  
-------------------------Nez Master-------------------- 
      Second founder of the backwards philosophy 
	       http://www.ntr.net/~nezmaster 
	    		Nothing is certain 
_______________________________________________________ 
	 
 
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:17:30 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
 
> The wedding battle from Big Trouble in Little China, especially Wang 
> versus the spirit sword guy. 
 
That was Rain. 
 
And the other four? 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:47:22 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Nez Master wrote: 
 
> >Okay, here is a totally useless but amusing question: 
> > 
> >What are the top five fight sequences you have ever seen (any media)? 
> >This can include live action, animated, comic book, what ever.  The only 
> >requirement is that it be between people, not space ships or fighter 
> >planes. 
> > 
> 1> Final Gunfight in The Killer makes my number one (I noticed it got 
> honarable mention from you. 
 
It was a tough choice.  I have to admit that in my book, a well done fist 
fight wins out over a gunfight most every time. 
  
> 2> The brawl In True Romance (Christian Slater versus Gary Oldman) 
 
Didn't see it. 
  
> 3> A battle in a long gone comic between Doctor Strange and The hulk. 
> (mostly because it was funny) 
 
Ditto. 
 
> 4> Spider man vs Juggernaut..becuase it showed the futility of a high-speed 
> low damage character vs. a high def character. (wonderful shot full of 
> after images of spider man, hitting juggy 10+ times while juggy stands there) 
 
Ditto II. 
 
> 5> Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragon 
 
Oh yeah.  The man moved with such grace and style, especially when you 
consider that one of his legs was something like 1" shorter than the 
other. 
  
> >My five? 
>  
> > 
> I haven't seen most of your favorites. But at least you like John Woo. 
 
Yep.  Did I mention "Face Off" and the final 'let's trade our guns' bit 
from "A Better Tomorrow II"? 
 
> >5) Jackie Chan (you *knew* there had to be a Jacke Chan fight scene in 
> >here, didn't you?), Samo Hung and Yeung Biao vs Yuen Wah, Bennie the Jet 
> >and a zillion mooks at the end of "Dragons Forever". 
>  
> Bruce Lee does it better. 
 
Have to disagree with you there.  Have you ever seen this sequence? 
Bruce had some awesome fights, but not with the flair and intensity of 
this one.  I guess it's a style thing. 
 
> >Honorable mentions include: 
> >The opening gunfight in "Hard Boiled" 
> >The final gunfight in "The Killer" 
> >Chow Yun Fat vs some mooks in in the begining of "Full Contact" 
> >Jubei's fight with Tessa at the begining of "Ninja Scroll" 
> >Jubei's fight with Genma at the end of "Ninja Scroll" 
> >Jubei and Kagero's fight with Utsutsu in the middle of "Ninja Scroll" 
> >(hmm... seem to be in a rut there) 
>  
> So I take it you would reccomend the film "Ninja Scroll" for our viewing 
> pleasure? 
 
Yep.  Cool characters (all but one written up for Hero on my website), 
excellent animation and soundtrack, cool plot and excellent action scenes. 
  
> >Deunan Knute vs a bunch of terrorists in a collapsed building in Appleseed 
> >book 4 (I think) 
> >Bruce Lee vs a zillion goons in Dr. Han's basement in "Enter the Dragon" 
> >Jackie Chan vs Ken Lo in "Drunken Master II" 
> >Jackie Chan vs Bennie the Jet in "Wheels on Meals" 
> > 
> >Hmm... I seem to be a bit sparse in the comic department... 
> >Okay, one last one then: 
> > 
> >Manji vs the other immortal guy in Call of the Worm #3 ("Blade of the 
> >Immortal"). 
> > 
> >Uh... hmmm only one western comic ... oh well. 
> > 
> My Honarable mentions 
>  
> * Anything else with Bruce Lee. 
 
Especially Bruce vs the Japanese school in "Fist of Fury" (aka "Chinese 
Connection") 
 
> * The final Scene of Big Trouble in little china 
 
I'll buy that. 
 
> * Princess bride "You killed my father" scene (from the point where he runs 
> away, all the way through) 
 
And ends with "I want my father back, you son of a bitch!" 
 
Yep, nice fight. 
 
> * Project Ako (which is almost one long fight scene in and of itself) 
 
And more mass destruction than any three Marvel/DC fight scenes! 
 
> * Elementals vs someone electircal (in which said electrical villian fries 
> his own team in a story that made it obvious the book was based on a game) 
 
Heh... I just re-read that Sunday.  The scene is Fathom vs Electrocutioner 
(love that name) in a flooded basement.  Elec fires off a bolt and zaps 
everyone in room, his own troops included. 
 
> * Ripley vs Alien in Aliens 
 
What, with the power loader? 
 
> * Any combat from Raiders of the Lost Ark 
 
Really? 
 
> * Sonny Chiba in Streetfighter 
 
Haven't seen that yet either... I guess I should. 
 
> * theres so many..i'll stop here.. 
 
Do tell. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:54:09 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 1 Dec 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> How could you have forgotten Johnny Cage vs. Scorpion and Liu Kang 
> vs. Reptile, both from "Mortal Kombat".  Both were beautifully 
> choreographed (Robin Shou's work).  Liu Kang vs. Shang Tsung, from the same 
> movie, has an interesting hit: the first time Liu connected, Robin Shou 
> really did connect, and the blood was real.  It was planned that way.  You 
> can't get more real than real. :) 
 
I didn't forget (really!). 
 
The Cage/Scorpion match was pretty cool but not one of my tops.  Liu Kang 
vs Reptile was just fantastic (the music had a lot to do with it) and 
should go in my "Honorable Mention". 
 
I had heard that the Liu Kang/Shang Tzung fight was 'real'.  Cute trick. 
 
BTW: If anyone mentions any fight scene from MK II, you deserve to get 
laughed into oblivion.  (I can't beleive I wasted money on that turkey... 
oh well, just goes to show that anyone can mkae a flic look good with a 30 
sec preview).  And can you believe that there are plans for a MK III? 
Robin Shou has wisely bowed out of that one. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 16:17:43 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Re: Just some more confusion 
X-VMS-To: IN%"qts@nildram.co.uk", IN%"champ-l@omg.org" 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
	How would you calculate the KB from a EB Autofire, Indrect, Invisible 
Power Effects (except mental), the f/x being 'fluidic fisticuffs,' tiny 
poltergeist-like punches and pinches from all directions? 
 
	 
 
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:21:41 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
 
On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> Okay, here is a totally useless but amusing question: 
>  
> What are the top five fight sequences you have ever seen (any media)? 
> This can include live action, animated, comic book, what ever.  The only 
> requirement is that it be between people, not space ships or fighter 
> planes. 
>  
 
I don't think I can list a definitive top five - a lot of cool scenes come 
to mind, and it's hard to rank them. Off the top of my head, I'll list: 
 
Movies: 
 
Darth Vader vs. Luke Skywalker in The Empire Strikes Back. 
 
The Wedding Battle in Big Trouble in Little China. 
 
The tournament in El Cid. (I think - Ivanhoe also had a lot of great 
scenes, and I get those two epic movies mixed up scene for scene.) 
 
Superman vs. the Kryptonian villains in Superman II. 
 
Rutger Hauer as a blind man fighting a bunch of bullies in Blind Fury. 
 
Jackie Chan's entire career. 
 
Comics: 
 
The remnants of the X-Men vs. the Sentinels in Days of Future Past. It's 
easy to forget that the book deserved its popularity once. 
 
Any of a number of great fights in The Question. 
 
Superman vs. the Spectre in DC Comics Presents. (Early 1980's, I forget 
the issue number.)  
 
Batman vs. Rick Flagg in Suicide Squad. 
 
The JLA vs. the Martians in the current run of JLA. 
 
Firestorm and friends vs. the JLA vs. the Suicide Squad vs. the Parasite. 
in Firestorm (around #100, I think.) 
 
 
 
 
 
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 16:25:36 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Lightness 
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org" 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
	I want the following end result using HERO mechanics: 
	The ability to decrease my own weight from the standard 100kg in 
regular increments. 
 
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:26:10 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified) 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>Okay, here is a totally useless but amusing question: 
> 
>What are the top five fight sequences you have ever seen (any media)? 
>This can include live action, animated, comic book, what ever.  The only 
>requirement is that it be between people, not space ships or fighter 
>planes. 
 
In no particular order: 
 
A.) Deunan's big fight scene in Appleseed Book 4. 22+ pages of dynamism. 
B.) Arnold vs. Brigitte in Red Sonya. I'll explain this one - yeah, they're 
using hokey swords, but the choraography is decent and they actually _get 
tired_ during the fight - something you seldom see. Arnie should've done 
more sword-and-sorcery stuff :-). 
C.) I don't remember which Jackie Chan flick this is in, but Jackie's trying 
to eat w/ chopsticks, while the old dude is beating him up/swiping his food. 
Jaw-dropping dexterity. 
D.) Arcturus Rann vs. Baron Karza, Micronauts #11. No, wait, make that 
Acroyear vs. Shaitan in Micronauts #12. One of the two. 
E.) Julia and Theodore Diggers vs. the Gneiss' Sentinel, Gold Digger #29 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:43:59 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Reply-To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Re: Just some more confusion 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
 
> 	How would you calculate the KB from a EB Autofire, Indrect, Invisible 
> Power Effects (except mental), the f/x being 'fluidic fisticuffs,' tiny 
> poltergeist-like punches and pinches from all directions? 
 
Actually, an atatck like that should probably considered "No KB", since it 
doesn't sound like it is going to send anyone anywhere (except, maybe 
straight down). 
 
For the record the KB from an Autofire attack is determined by subtracting 
2d6 from the largest amount of Body rolled in a single shot with +1 Body 
added for each additional hit. 
 
Example: You have a 6d6 AF and hit your target 4 times.  You roll 8 Body 
on one attack (which is the higest amount rolled on any).  So you take 
that 8 Body, add 3 Body for the rest of the hits (total 11) and then 
subtract 2d6. 
 
 
*************************************************************************** 
*"'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion * 
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net * * Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' 
the Hero Games resource site at:  * * 
http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html * * Attacked Mystification 
Police / AD Police / ESWAT * * Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap 
Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
NO CARRIER 
 
aaAAA 
 
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:53:58 -0800 
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger) 
Subject: Re[2]: Density Decrease (formerly Non shrinking shrinking) 
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
      
     Rat said: 
     <quote> 
     An important thing to remember is not to get hung up on what a power  
     or effect is called when trying to determine what power(s) to use to  
     simulate a particular effect.  As I just mentioned, a "density  
     decrease" effect by which the character becomes less substantial than  
     normal (volume remains the same but mass decreases), but not  
     completely insubstantial and isolated from the physical world,  
     physical and energy Damage Reduction will simulate this effect  
     reasonably well. 
     </quote> 
      
     A few levels in DCV would also work here. A normal attack might pass 
     through with no damage, but an area effect attack would still cause  
     normal damage. 
      
     Richard 
 
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:56:48 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
> >Okay, here is a totally useless but amusing question: 
> > 
> >What are the top five fight sequences you have ever seen (any media)? 
> >This can include live action, animated, comic book, what ever.  The only 
> >requirement is that it be between people, not space ships or fighter 
> >planes. 
>  
> In no particular order: 
>  
> A.) Deunan's big fight scene in Appleseed Book 4. 22+ pages of dynamism. 
 
Told ya it was cool! 
 
> B.) Arnold vs. Brigitte in Red Sonya. I'll explain this one - yeah, they're 
> using hokey swords, but the choraography is decent and they actually _get 
> tired_ during the fight - something you seldom see. Arnie should've done 
> more sword-and-sorcery stuff :-). 
 
Ever hear about Arnie's crusader flic he wanted to do?  It was supposed to 
be *MEGA* budget. 
 
> C.) I don't remember which Jackie Chan flick this is in, but Jackie's trying 
> to eat w/ chopsticks, while the old dude is beating him up/swiping his food. 
> Jaw-dropping dexterity. 
 
Hmmm... I think that is in "Fearless Hyena" 
 
Which alo features the epic line: 
 
"You wish to challenge me?  So, you must be tired of living." 
 
> D.) Arcturus Rann vs. Baron Karza, Micronauts #11. No, wait, make that 
> Acroyear vs. Shaitan in Micronauts #12. One of the two. 
> E.) Julia and Theodore Diggers vs. the Gneiss' Sentinel, Gold Digger #29 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 14:15:15 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Cause Pain 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>  
>         Hurt-Waltz can cause pain by touching her opponents. 
>         What effects would 'pain' have on a target, and how would you work out 
> the power(s) involved? 
 
   Okay, here is an advantage I've used before, but keep in mind that I 
just blindly created it with no actual effort to judge its playability 
or cost-effectiveness. 
 
   "Painful" - +1/2 (or 1/4 or whatever level one might think it is 
worth).  This power applied to an attack causes additional pain to a 
target beyond that which would be considered 'normal' pain for said 
attack.  The mechanic is that after such an attack, the target aquires 
an EGO roll in order to maintain combatting the 'painful' opponent.  The 
EGO roll is based on 'BODY' rolled on the dice/2 and modified by the 
target's 'heroic' and other applicable Psych lims. 
 
   I. E. TortureBoy fires a 10D6 'painful' EB at TargetMan and hits.  
Tha attack yields 11 BODY.  TargetMan has a Psych Lim. 
"self-sacrificing" for 15 points, so his next phase he has to make an 
EGO roll at (11/2=5.5=5 - 15/5=3) -2 to attack TortureBoy again. 
 
   I.E. Next, TortureBoy attacks The Incredible Lump with his 'painful' 
3D6 RKA and yields 9 BODY.  The Incredible Lump has a Psych Lim 'Loves 
Combat' for 10 points and 'Vengeful' for 15 points.  Thus his EGO roll 
next time to attack TB is  
(9/2=4.5=4 - 10/5=2 - 15/5=3) actually at +1 to his roll, though he 
still has to make a roll. 
 
   Now maybe the rolls need to be adjusted for armour or base damage, or 
maybe the result shouldn't be an EGO roll, but like I said, I blindly 
created this on the fly 'cause I wanted the effect for one of my NPCs, 
so at the time, I didn't worry about cost or mechanics overmuch. 
   Perhaps folks might want to take the base concept and develop or 
refine it? 
 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 14:20:53 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Cause Pain 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:33 AM 12/1/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
> Hurt-Waltz can cause pain by touching her opponents. 
> What effects would 'pain' have on a target, and how would you work out 
>the power(s) involved? 
 
   For this power, as described, I'd probably call for an AVLD vs Power 
Defense, Damage Shield.  (YMMV) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 14:27:31 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Dream Powers 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:51 PM 12/1/97, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote: 
>On Sun, 30 Nov 1997 20:46:27 -0500 (EST), ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
> 
>> How would you simulate a character who could 'dream walk' -- 
>>enter another character's mind through their dreams. 
> 
>Mental Illusions or Telepathy, Only when Target is Asleep. 
 
   One could also go with Extra-Dimensional Movement (as per Champions in 
3-D). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 14:28:54 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Just some more confusion 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 04:17 PM 12/1/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
> How would you calculate the KB from a EB Autofire, Indrect, Invisible 
>Power Effects (except mental), the f/x being 'fluidic fisticuffs,' tiny 
>poltergeist-like punches and pinches from all directions? 
 
   From the fact that it's "from all directions," I'd insist that the Power 
be bought with No Knockback. 
   Otherwise I'd just roll it like any other Autofire attack; the other 
stuff doesn't affect Knockback. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-4,6-15 
From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David W Toomey) 
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 17:36:45 EST 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Inego Montoyez vs the Dread Pirate Roberts 
Inego Montoyez vs Count Rugen (the six-fingered man) 
 
Both from Princess Bride. 
 
The book version of the first fight is actually better than the movie 
version 
 
*Anything* with Errol Flynn fencing, preferrably vs Basil Rathbone. 
 
 
Guess this just shows my age, huh? 
 
 
David W Toomey 
dwtoomey@juno.com 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 14:39:24 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:46 PM 12/1/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>Okay, here is a totally useless but amusing question: 
> 
>What are the top five fight sequences you have ever seen (any media)? 
>This can include live action, animated, comic book, what ever.  The only 
>requirement is that it be between people, not space ships or fighter 
>planes. 
 
   You may be sorry you asked.  Here are mine, approximately in order. 
 
   1. Xena vs a gang of bounty hunters in a recent episode of "Xena: 
Warrior Princess." 
 
   2. George of the Jungle vs a lion in the "George of the Jungle" movie. 
 
   3. David Carradine vs three thugs in the Lipton's Tea commercial about 
five years ago. 
 
   4. Rutger Hauer vs a bunch of barroom toughs in the opening scenes of 
"Blind Fury." 
 
   5. Sgt. Slaughter vs one of the villains (I forget the guy's name) near 
the end of "G. I. Joe: The Movie." 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:19:01 -0800 
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger) 
Subject: Re:Favorite battles 
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part 
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     Has everyone forgotten the sword fight between Inigo Montoya and the  
     Dread Pirate Roberts in the Princess Bride? 
      
     "I know something you don't know" 
     "What?" 
     "I'm not left handed." 
      
     Richard 
 
Reply-To: <903047@ican.net> 
From: "dflacks" <dflacks@ican.net> 
Subject: Re: Cause Pain 
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:50:18 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote; 
> 
> Hurt-Waltz can cause pain by touching her opponents. 
> What effects would 'pain' have on a target, and how would you work out 
> the power(s) involved? 
> 
There is a character named Aura in the Champions of the North supplement.  
( A book I find myself referring to again and again.)  She can send a 
reflection any pain caused her in the last few seconds to someone else.  
This was designed as an ego attack with feedback (-3/4).  It also had the 
limitation doesn't work on beserkers and psychopaths (-1/4). 
 
I think that an ego attack is a good model for a pain inducing power.  No 
actual physical harm is done, ie. no body, but the target is definetly 
effected.  The pain effects a target no matter how strong their armour is, 
but a high ego may allow them to be unaffected, fighting off the pain. 
 
If the pain is induced through none mental means you may wish to use a 
standard energy blast with the Stun only limitation.  You, of course, don't 
need the feedback limitation if it is not in your character design. 
 
Some who is Berserk is out of control.  They are not easily effected by 
their surroundings.  They are so filled with 'berserker fury' that they do 
not feel the pain. 
 
 
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. 
Inside a dog it's too dark to read. 
 
dflacks@ican.net 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 18:11:04 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Status:  
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X-UID: 27 
 
At 05:36 PM 12/1/97 EST, David W Toomey wrote: 
>Inego Montoyez vs the Dread Pirate Roberts 
>Inego Montoyez vs Count Rugen (the six-fingered man) 
> 
>Both from Princess Bride. 
 
   How about the big swordfight in "The Court Jester?" 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 18:12:43 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re:Favorite battles 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 03:19 PM 12/1/97 -0800, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote: 
>     Has everyone forgotten the sword fight between Inigo Montoya and the  
>     Dread Pirate Roberts in the Princess Bride? 
 
   Whoops, I had! 
   I'd also forgotten the great swordfight in the climactic scene in "The 
Court Jester," where Danny Kaye keeps switching personalities.  Stick that 
one at #1 on my list, then Xena, then George, then Inigo/Westley, then 
David Carridine. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
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>>>>> "DWT" == David W Toomey <dwtoomey@juno.com> writes: 
 
DWT> Both from Princess Bride. 
DWT> The book version of the first fight is actually better than the movie 
DWT> version 
 
That would probably be because the fight choreography in that movie 
*SUCKED*.  Seriously, the dialog is fun, but the fencing bites. 
 
DWT> *Anything* with Errol Flynn fencing, preferrably vs Basil Rathbone. 
 
Ditto for Flynn... he was a boxer, not a fencer, and you can see it in his 
footwork (or lack thereof).  Rathbone, on the other hand, was an Olympic 
fencer. 
 
Which reminds me of another cool fight: from "The Court Jester", Rathbone 
vs. Danny Kaye.  Another real fight in that it was not choreographed. 
Rathbone was fencing (defensively) for real. 
 
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X-Sender: wbandsis@mail.westco.net 
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 23:37:55 -0500 
From: "C. Badger" <wbandsis@westco.net> 
Subject: Re: Character experience 
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At 21:15 11/30/97, qts wrote: 
>I've been having a think (always dangerous!) 
> 
>Would people agree that there is a general progression of experience 
>reflected by cost in the various frameworks? 
> 
>With a multipower, generally a character can only use one or two powers 
>at the same time. 
> 
>With an Elemental Control, a character can demonstrate their skill by 
>performing all their tricks at the same time. 
> 
>With a Variable Power Pool, a character can demonstrate their mastery 
>by doing *anything* [related to the SFX and guided by the Limitations, 
>of course]. 
> 
>Comments? And yes, I know that a VPP can be cheaper than an EC, but 
>you've got the AP cap. 
 
Also depending on what limits you might be able to use more then one power 
in a VPP also......   
 
But what are you trying to get at here? 
 
Multipower is fairly easy to (low cost) to add something new, VPP easy to 
increase powers of EC is harder to expand overall with new experience. 
----- 
C. Badger 
 
My Feet hurt and I've forgotten how to dance. 
			Londo 
			Babylon 5 
 
 
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 23:39:03 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
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On 1 Dec 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> DWT> Both from Princess Bride. 
> DWT> The book version of the first fight is actually better than the movie 
> DWT> version 
>  
> That would probably be because the fight choreography in that movie 
> *SUCKED*.  Seriously, the dialog is fun, but the fencing bites. 
 
I'd say the second fight is better than the first.  The fight on the 
cliffs is too linear.  But hey, who watches _Princess Bride_ for the fight 
scenes? 
  
> DWT> *Anything* with Errol Flynn fencing, preferrably vs Basil Rathbone. 
>  
> Ditto for Flynn... he was a boxer, not a fencer, and you can see it in his 
> footwork (or lack thereof).  Rathbone, on the other hand, was an Olympic 
> fencer. 
 
I'd heard that Rathbone had to really down play his skill in orde to make 
Flynn look good on camera. 
  
> Which reminds me of another cool fight: from "The Court Jester", Rathbone 
> vs. Danny Kaye.  Another real fight in that it was not choreographed. 
> Rathbone was fencing (defensively) for real. 
 
So, Danny Kaye knew how to use a sword, or was he just that 'out of 
control'? 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:42:17 -0800 
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On Monday, December 01, 1997 2:38 PM, David W Toomey 
 
 
>Inego Montoyez vs the Dread Pirate Roberts 
>Inego Montoyez vs Count Rugen (the six-fingered man) 
 
> 
>Both from Princess Bride. 
 
Agreed. 
 
>The book version of the first fight is actually better than the movie 
>version 
 
Yes, yes, YES. The movie scene was great compared to such scenes in 
general, but was only fair compared to the book. For those of you who 
didn't know the book was written years in advance, and was very good, 
I strongly recommend this book. 
 
>*Anything* with Errol Flynn fencing, preferrably vs Basil Rathbone. 
> 
Two of the best swordsmen ever to grace the silver screen, beyond a 
doubt. 
> 
>Guess this just shows my age, huh? 
> 
Not in the days of "American Movie Classics" on cable. Saying it shows 
your age is what shows your age. 
 
I generally agree with the votes for the final fight scene from Big 
Trouble in Little China. 
 
Also, the fight scene in Willow between Madmardigan, Willow, and one 
goat on one side, and an army, trolls and a dragon on the other side 
(sort of). The character of Madmardigan did some of the best 
swordfighting scenes since Errol Flynn and Basil Rathbone (who was 
once reputed to be the second best fencer in Europe). 
 
I have to admit a sneaking liking for the final swordfight between 
Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader. 
 
Last but not least, the final fight scene in the Wolverine and Kitty 
Pride limited series, where Kitty Pride was possessed by an immortal 
ninja (though not in that scene). 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Re:Favorite battles 
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:46:39 -0800 
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On Monday, December 01, 1997 3:05 PM, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote: 
 
 
>     Has everyone forgotten the sword fight between Inigo Montoya and 
the 
>     Dread Pirate Roberts in the Princess Bride? 
> 
>     "I know something you don't know" 
>     "What?" 
>     "I'm not left handed." 
 
 
I didn't forget it. I wasn't sure if I wanted to nominate it, though, 
because I had read the book years before the movie, and compared to 
the scene in the book, the movie version was disappointing. 
 
Filksinger 
 
X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.istar.ca: jenora owned process doing -bs 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 00:52:13 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bryan Feir <jenora@istar.ca> 
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Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
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On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> Okay, here is a totally useless but amusing question: 
>  
> What are the top five fight sequences you have ever seen (any media)? 
> This can include live action, animated, comic book, what ever.  The only 
> requirement is that it be between people, not space ships or fighter 
> planes. 
 
   I won't give all five, but I'll add one I haven't seen anywhere else 
just because I liked it, as being one of the more realistic comic-book 
fights I'd seen in a while...  the barroom fight in one of the really 
early issues of the Desert Peach (I think #2, maybe #3).  A classic 
example of why you don't bait someone who holds his temper in check... 
 
---------------------------+--------------------------------------------------- 
Bryan Feir           VA3GBF|"Advertising may be described as the science of 
bryan@sgl.crestech.ca      | arresting human intelligence long enough to get 
jenora@istar.ca            | money from it."          -- Stephen Leacock 
---------------------------+--------------------------------------------------- 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 22:27:29 -0800 
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On Monday, December 01, 1997 7:58 PM, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
 
>On 1 Dec 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
> 
>> DWT> Both from Princess Bride. 
>> DWT> The book version of the first fight is actually better than 
the movie 
>> DWT> version 
>> 
>> That would probably be because the fight choreography in that movie 
>> *SUCKED*.  Seriously, the dialog is fun, but the fencing bites. 
> 
>I'd say the second fight is better than the first.  The fight on the 
>cliffs is too linear.  But hey, who watches _Princess Bride_ for the 
fight 
>scenes? 
 
 
I have to agree that the fight choreography of the first scene was 
pretty bad, but that isn't why it wasn't as good as the book (well, 
not the only reason). The _dialog_ was better in the book, and so was 
the situation. Additionally, in the book the Spainiard was _better_ 
than the Man in Black, at least overall. The Spaniard was the greatest 
swordsman in the world. The Man in Black needed to find his special 
"edge" in that scene in order to triumph, just like he didn't beat the 
giant by strength. 
 
>> DWT> *Anything* with Errol Flynn fencing, preferrably vs Basil 
Rathbone. 
>> 
>> Ditto for Flynn... he was a boxer, not a fencer, and you can see it 
in his 
>> footwork (or lack thereof).  Rathbone, on the other hand, was an 
Olympic 
>> fencer. 
> 
>I'd heard that Rathbone had to really down play his skill in orde to 
make 
>Flynn look good on camera. 
 
That's true. I liked those scenes not because Flynn was a good fencer. 
I liked those scenes because Flynn was better than virtually anyone 
else in films, ever. Rathbone was better- he wasn't an actor 
initially, he was a fencer, but Flynn was still better than anyone 
else I could name. I liked those movies, not because of the 
choreography, but because they _fenced_. Fencing in the movies, in 
"combat" rather than competition (and usually in competition), is 
_always_ bad. 
 
I liked it the way I like those rare movies where two people use 
actual unarmed combat skills, instead of what is typically shown on 
camera. Bruce Lee was reported by a number of people who knew him to 
be a truly superb fighter, but often gets a bad rap because he used 
such fake fighting in the movies. 
 
>> Which reminds me of another cool fight: from "The Court Jester", 
Rathbone 
>> vs. Danny Kaye.  Another real fight in that it was not 
choreographed. 
>> Rathbone was fencing (defensively) for real. 
> 
>So, Danny Kaye knew how to use a sword, or was he just that 'out of 
>control'? 
> 
Neither one. Danny Kaye may have fenced (he did almost anything he 
ever wanted in his life, if he wanted to fence, he did it), but that 
wasn't why they didn't choreograph the scene. They just knew that Kaye 
would never touch Rathbone, so they let him have his fun. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 00:30:20 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
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> > That would probably be because the fight choreography in that movie 
> > *SUCKED*.  Seriously, the dialog is fun, but the fencing bites. 
> 
> I'd say the second fight is better than the first.  The fight on the 
> cliffs is too linear.  But hey, who watches _Princess Bride_ for the fight 
> scenes? 
 
	Hmmm.  Me, for one.  They're quite exciting and heroic and all 
that. 
 
	I'd rank both among my top list -- speaking of which. 
 
> > Ditto for Flynn... he was a boxer, not a fencer, and you can see it in his 
> > footwork (or lack thereof).  Rathbone, on the other hand, was an Olympic 
> > fencer. 
> 
> I'd heard that Rathbone had to really down play his skill in orde to make 
> Flynn look good on camera. 
 
	Hmmm.  Interesting.  I've liked what (little) I've seen of Flynn, 
mostly because he has such flair.  Flair -- an important component of 
movie fights. 
 
 
	Now for my top fights, in no real particular order.  (And limited 
by what I have and haven't seen) 
 
 	M*O*V*I*E*S 
 
	-Montoya vs Rubin at the end of Princess Bride, and not quite as 
good, but up there for the humor and setup, Man in Black vs Montoya on the 
cliffs.  (I know they've been criticized, but I still find them wonderful 
to observe.) 
 
	-Rocky vs Creed at the end of Rocky I, and again at the end of 
Rocky II.  (Hard to differentiate these two) 
 
	-Tim Roth's character vs Rob Roy at the end of Rob Roy 
 
	-The final fight of The Magnificent Seven 
 
	-The "no rules in a knife fight" scene of Butch Cassidy and the 
Sundance Kid. 
 
	-The final fight in Enter the Dragon 
 
	-In Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story -- fight where Bruce proves he can 
beat any man in less than 60 seconds. 
 
	-Urotsokidoji -- wait, that wasn't a *fight* scene . . . 
 
	-Snake Pliskin vs. the big gladiator in Escape from New York (he 
was really fighting for his life in that one) 
 
	-Dragon Scroll -- fight vs the blind demon in the forest 
 
	-Final Gun exchange in Reservoir Dogs 
 
	-Honorable Mention (does this count as a fight) to the "Touchdown" 
Run at the beginning of The Last Boy Scout 
 
 
	I'll get back with other genres. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: Re: Waste of Bandwidth 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 02:05:47 -0500 
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For comic book fights, the Avengers vs. Count Nefaria when Nefaria 
had juiced himself up by stealing the powers of the Living Laser, the 
original Power Man, and the Whirlwind, all magnified a hundredfold.  
The X-Men vs. Proteus.  Iron Man vs. the Hulk, when Iron Man knocked 
out the Hulk by putting all of his armor's power into a single punch, 
causing an armor shutdown that trapped Tony Stark inside his armor. 
 
For a short fight, "The Philistine" strip in Marvel's Bizarre 
Adventures #31.  Frank Miller did some great work in black and white. 
 Also, "Dr. Death with Kip and Muffy" from the same issue, for the 
satirical value.  
 
Last but not least, Thrud the Barbarian vs. anyone.   
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 02:06:13 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
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At first glance I thought this would be easy, but I have so many choices. 
 
For Comics: 
 
1.  The final battle in Kingdom Come.  Over 100 super types in a 
battleroyal with the fate of the world in the balance.  Two sides that 
want to destroy the other and a third side that wants to stop the other 
two from doing that.  And the main event, Superman v. Capt. Marvel, with 
Marvel using his lightning to do a number on Supers. 
 
Honorable mention: 
The final battle between Wolverine and the Demonninja in the 
Wolverine/Kitty Pryde limited series. 
 
Lobo v. Vril Dox back in the early days of LEGION before Lobo went on 
steroids and became a total idiot. 
 
Batman v. Bronze Tiger in Suicide Squad, just for the line 
Batman:  We've fought before. 
Bronze Tiger:  And I kicked your butt.  Want to get out of my way now? 
 
Most of the Lady Shiva appearances, despite the fact that The Question was 
the only book that really knew how to use the character. 
 
Movies: 
 
1.  I have to agree with Surbrook here.  Jackie Chan v. Benny The Jet in 
Dragons Forever is my all time favorite fight scene.  It didn't have a 
great sound track or much comedy, but it was very well choreographed, with 
alot of back and forth action.  I can't think of a martial arts scene that 
is even close, except maybe Chan v. Benny in Wheels on Meals. 
 
Honorable mention: 
Bruce Lee in the Dojo in Chinese Connection.  Bruce Lee was supremely 
skilled and it showed. 
 
The hospital fight in Hardboiled, especially Chow Yun Fat & Tony Leong 
(sp?) against Maddog. 
 
Chun Li v.Vega in the animated Streetfighter movie.  Nuff said. 
 
Ranma v. Ryoga, when  Ryoga learned the breaking point technique. 
 
Michelle Yoeh in general, but especially in Wing Chun. 
 
MacLeod v. Kurgen in the first Highlander movie.  Especially the European 
release that has additional footage that was cut out from the American 
release. 
 
And the worst scenes I've ever seen? 
 
Nearly every fight scene in Mortal Kombat II.  Truly awful.  After how 
good a number of the fights were in MK I, this was especially 
disappointing. 
 
Most of the Carradine fights in the new Kung Fu. 
 
TokyoMark 
 
 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 02:11:38 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
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> 	-Tim Roth's character vs Rob Roy at the end of Rob Roy 
 
I forgot about this one.  I bought 'previously viewed' copy of this movie 
just for this fight scene. 
 
> 	-Urotsokidoji -- wait, that wasn't a *fight* scene . . . 
 
In Urotsukidoji III, the fight between Amano Jyaku and Munihausen on top 
of 6 nuclear missles was memorable.:) 
 
>  
> 	-Snake Pliskin vs. the big gladiator in Escape from New York (he 
> was really fighting for his life in that one) 
 
Well, consider the gladiator was Ox Baker, from my home town of 
Indianapolis.  He accidently killed two men in the wrestling ring as a pro 
wrestler, so you are right on here.  REALLY fighting for his life:) 
 
TokyoMark 
 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwidth Question #1 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 02:25:22 -0500 
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For swashbuckling movie fights, The Three Musketeers and The Four 
Musketeers films produced in the 1970s, especially the final confrontation 
between Michael York and Christopher Lee in the convent, where the two 
evenly matched men fight until completely exhausted. 
 
To see how sword fights can be choreographed, check out this video--The 
Blow By Blow guide to Swordfighting in the Renaissance Style, presented by 
Mike Loades and produced by Running Wolf Productions.  It's available from 
Barnes & Noble bookseller.  The tape is aimed at drama students who wish 
for an introduction to stage swordfighting, but most anyone would enjoy 
it. 
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 02:55:51 -0600 (CST) 
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Subject: Re: Waste of bandwidth Question #1 
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The best fight scene in any movie has to be the fight between, 
Roddy Piper and David Keith in "They Live"  not only a great fight  
but the reason they fight... 
Piper "Put on these glasses." 
Keith "No way and I putting on thoses glasses." 
Piper "Put on these glasses or eat that trash can." 
 
On a side note Keith was the voice of Spawn on the HBO toon version, they 
should have gotten him for the movie. 
 
An awesome comic fight was between the Hulk and Sasquatch in a Hulk form the 
early 80's, Sassy took enough knockback to go through 27 "giant" sequya 
(sp?) trees! 
 
Michael 
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Infra-Red Vision 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:42:41 +0000 (GMT) 
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>  
>    By default, does someone with powers like infrared vision, ultravision, 
> etc. works at the same time with each other and normal sight or the  
> character would have to specify which one he is using ? 
 
	Depends on the special effect. 
Spectrum, a villianess from my 1980's game who was living light across 
the entire electromagnetic spectrum. For her it would be all at once. 
 
	However, Heavy Metal in his days in the marines might have 
used IR glasses. These would have been either or. 
 
>    Is Infra-Red and ultravision targeting senses by default ? Ultravision 
> I think is because it says it is like normal sight, but what about the 
> infrared? 
	Yes, both are targeting. 
 
>    How do you usually consider the way infra-red works? Does it just see 
> what we would normally see but seeing the temperature instead of the 
> colors (light reflected) of the objects, or could it also see through cold 
> things (walls example) and see the hot things in there (people example) ? 
>  
	Depends on special effect. Heavy Metal's IR goggles would simply 
make all the temperature detail red and yelow so his normal eyes could 
process it. 
	Spectrum would see it in it's full brilliance. Would she see through 
things? She would, but this not the IR vision power. This is N-Ray vision 
defined as active IR vision. Blocked by thick areas of the same temperature 
gradient. 
 
	Game-mechanic wise IR vision is just a see in the dark power that 
allows you to diferentiate temperatures. 
 
	Unfortunatly the enhanced senses section of the Hero rules is 
the one place where they put special effect into the power. So it can 
often confuse people. 
 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Characteristics 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:53:40 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: hero-l@omg.org 
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>  
> 	I have heard of Penetrating PRE, used in Presence attacks. 
> I have also heard of Advantages like Reduced END applied to STR. 
> Could you apply other Advantages to Characteristics? 
 
	I've used lots of advatnages and lims on stats. 
Before I outgrew my power gaming stage in the 80's, I used to try to 
stik them all into EC's. But I almost never allow that now. The rules 
define it as illegal without a GM ok anyway. Which means to me that it 
better be the only way to do it (I'll give a player more points before I 
ok that one). 
	However, often used items are linked (link Dex to shrinking for 
example, or even Con and Body to simulate mass to energy conversion). 
	Invisible power effects could be used on PRE to make people 
follow you without reaizing why or who. But that's a long stretch. 
 
	Activation rolls on part of a stat are common. As is side effect. 
 
You could put a 1d6 cummulative tranform side effect on all stats above 
normal human max on a character who is slowly being transformed into 
something undesirable every time they "use the power". 
 
> 	My questions are:  How do the Advantages affect the aspects of 
> a Char. (STR used with a weapon, for example; a character with 
> a STR 20 Penetrating would be able to lift as much as a character 
> with STR 20, I would assume)?  How would the primary CHar. affect 
> secondary Char. (Difficult to Dispel CON effects on END) 
>  
	The penetrating str guy lifts 20 str points worth. just as a normal 
20 str does. 
	No effects on secondary characteristics, you have to buy that 
seperatly. 
 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:54:25 -0200 (EDT) 
From: Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria <gevaerd@laranjeiras.lci.ufrj.br> 
Subject: Infra-Red Vision 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 14 
 
   By default, does someone with powers like infrared vision, ultravision, 
etc. works at the same time with each other and normal sight or the  
character would have to specify which one he is using ? 
   Is Infra-Red and ultravision targeting senses by default ? Ultravision 
I think is because it says it is like normal sight, but what about the 
infrared? 
   How do you usually consider the way infra-red works? Does it just see 
what we would normally see but seeing the temperature instead of the 
colors (light reflected) of the objects, or could it also see through cold 
things (walls example) and see the hot things in there (people example) ? 
 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Bounced messages from hero-l list coming to me for some reason. 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:31:22 +0000 (GMT) 
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Hello; 
  
        I just recieved about 7 messages from October which I'd sent to the 
list. 
        I know they got to the list originally as I recall reading them 
and having some of them discussed by others. 
        My assumption is someone who dropped out some time back is finally bounc 
ing and for some reason I'm getting it all... 
  
        Either that or it's bouncing due to the domain name I had then and the 
one I have now being diferent... 
  
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
 
Here's one of them: #################################################### 
>  
> Please note that the system that this message was addressed to no 
> longer exists, or is not a Member of the IMA Gateway system,  and  
> that the below message is undeliverable. So it is being deleted. 
>   
> It would be a good idea to confirm that you are using the correct address. 
>   
> If this is a valid system, but not a valid Member of the IMA, they can 
> contact me at the address below about joining our gateway. 
>   
> Also, if this is a mailing list, please remove the intended recipient 
> from all of your configs and listings. The address of the intended 
> recipient is listed right after the "Apparently-to:" line towards the 
> top of the text below. 
>   
> Note: If the original message WAS part of a mailing list, and you're 
> unable to remove this person from the listing, please forward a copy of 
> this message to the list keeper (coordinator) for removal. 
>   
> Thanks, 
>        John McAlpin  -  IMA Gatekeeper 
>        john.mcalpin@1202.ima.infomail.com 
>        FidoNet 1:382/1202 
>   
> (NONODE.TXT) 
> Original message: 
>  
> -- 
> Date: Fri Oct 24 '97, 13:12:08 
> Attr: pvt fwd kil  
> From: Brian Wong, (1:382/87.0) 
> To  : hero-l, (1:382/111.0) 
> Subj: Overdoing/Underdoing Disads? 
> -- 
> From: Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com> 
> @Message-Id: <199710241812.LAA27585@sanfran.infinex.com> 
> @Subject: Overdoing/Underdoing Disads? 
> @Mime-Version: 1.0 
> @Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII 
> @Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
> @Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
> @To: champ-l@omg.org 
>  
> Overdoing/Underdoing Disads? 
>  
> 	How harsh are most of us on character disads? 
>  
> Do you look for a chance at every turn to stomp on a PC using it's disads? 
>  
> Do you just ignore them for the most part? 
>  
> Use them as minor subplots or to flesh out a character? 
>  
> Or some mix of these methods? 
>  
> 	Should a character with a DNPC always find themselves rescuing 
> the DNPC from danger? Or they should they mostly find themselves just 
> being sidetracked into subplots with that DNPC? 
>  
> 	Where does one draw the line on this? 
>  
> Rook 
> Also known as Arcady on #herochat, #Fuzionchat, #gurps, #V&V, 
> and #SuperHeroChat in DALnet IRC 
>  
> My Champions Webpage is at: 
> http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
>  
> Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
> http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
>  
> --- 
>   -- 
>   | Fidonet: NetMgr+ 1:382/86 
>   |Internet: NetMgr+@ima.infomail.com 
>   | 
>   |Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly their own. 
>  
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Odd abilities. 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:45:33 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: hero-l@omg.org 
Reply-To: rook@infinex.com 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
> On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>  
> > 	Here are some odd abilities I need to simulate: 
> > 	 
> > 	Imposing bad luck on others within a certain of the character 
> > generating the power. 
>  
> Well... there are a number of ways of simulating 'bad luck'.  One would be 
> to buy 'x' dice of (un)Luck.  It say that enough dice of (un)Luck will 
> affect your team mates, so...  This power should have Ranged, Area of 
> Effect and Personal Immunity on it. 
> 
Making your allies Unlucky: 
 
1. Unluck with personal immunity, get more than 3 dice. personal immunity 
	makes the disad worth less rather than more. As a disad,  
	it would only affect those not 'against you' 
2. Luck usable by others, only those opposed to you or you allies. 
	Area affect, lim that anyone in area get's to use it, regardless of 
	your wishes. 
 
Unluck as an attack: 
 
Luck usable by others, area affect, always on. Selective. Lim that it can 
only be used to help people/things opposed to whoever you wish to 'curse'. 
 
 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
X-Sender: wga@pop.cwru.edu 
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 07:51:58 -0500 
From: Will Austin <wga@po.cwru.edu> 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 19 
 
At 01:46 PM 12/1/97 -0500, you wrote: 
>Okay, here is a totally useless but amusing question: 
> 
>What are the top five fight sequences you have ever seen (any media)? 
>This can include live action, animated, comic book, what ever.  The only 
>requirement is that it be between people, not space ships or fighter 
>planes. 
 
	Okay, here's some comicbook fights that I think are classic: 
 
1.) Miracleman vs. Kid Miracleman (from Miracleman #1-2) 
 
2.) Miracleman and crew vs. Kid Miracleman (from Miracleman #12-13--I can't 
remember offhand. . .) 
 
3.) The Avengers vs. Count Nefaria (Avengers #164-166) 
 
 
============================================================================ 
 
Nomad 
wga@po.cwru.edu 
myrtth@geocities.com 
 
 "Relationships are hard. It's like a full-time job, and we should treat it 
like one. If your boyfriend or  
girlfriend wants to leave you, they should give you two weeks' notice. 
There should be severance  
pay, and before they leave you, they should have to find you a temp." 
								    --Bob Ettinger 
 
============================================================================ 
 
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 08:01:56 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Characteristics 
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org" 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 20 
 
	I have heard of Penetrating PRE, used in Presence attacks. 
I have also heard of Advantages like Reduced END applied to STR. 
Could you apply other Advantages to Characteristics? 
	Difficult to DIspel and Useable by Others seem to be 
able to adapt to all Char.  STR could be coupled with a number 
of offensive Advantages (Area of Effect to represent the use of a 
long 'brick-ripped' weapon [someone cited this earlier], AP,  
Double Knockback, Penetrating, & Reduced END;  more questionable 
Advantages in my mind: Autofire [how would this function with attacks? 
all attacks that utilize STR? what about HtH weapon use?], Affects 
Desolidified [would this let you 'touch' Desolid characters?],  
Continous, Damage Shield [I don't see these happening], Invisible 
Power Effects [...I don't know.  Invisible to Touch for a light handed 
theif?], NND [leaning towards a negative], No Range Penalty [would this 
allow bricks to throw boulders w/o penalty?], Variable Special Effects 
[How would this work?]. 
	My questions are:  How do the Advantages affect the aspects of 
a Char. (STR used with a weapon, for example; a character with 
a STR 20 Penetrating would be able to lift as much as a character 
with STR 20, I would assume)?  How would the primary CHar. affect 
secondary Char. (Difficult to Dispel CON effects on END) 
 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:10:48 -0500 
From: Connie Bechtel <+CONNIEB@CSI.compuserve.com> 
Subject: RE: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Content-Disposition: inline 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 22 
 
 ---No Particular Order--- 
 
 --The entire final battle between the good guys and the bad guys cumilating  
in the death of the mega-villian at the hands of Kurt Russell's knife in Big  
Trouble in Little China. 
 
 --Most any Steven Segal movie. 
 
 --Daredevil vs Bullseye in the battle that ultimately left Bullseye  
paralysed. 
 
 --The sword battle between Inyo Montoya and Wesley/the Dread Pirate Roberts  
from the Princess Bride. 
 
 
From:   Michael Surbrook, >INTERNET:susano@access.digex.net 
TO:     Champions, INTERNET:champ-l@omg.org 
DATE:   12/1/97 2:42 PM 
 
RE:     Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Okay, here is a totally useless but amusing question: 
 
What are the top five fight sequences you have ever seen (any media)? 
This can include live action, animated, comic book, what ever.  The only 
requirement is that it be between people, not space ships or fighter 
planes. 
 
My five? 
 
(in no real order) 
 
1) The Thing and Johnny Storm vs Terrax in FF issues... (uh, damn, I 
forgot).  Anyway this is the three issue series that had Doc Doom and the 
Silver Surfer show up (And Reed Richards put on trial for saving Galactus) 
 
2) Chun Li vs Vega in "Streetfighter II the Animated Movie". 
 
3) Jet Li vs "The Killing Machine" at the end of "Fist of Legend". 
 
4) Son Goku (and Vegita) vs Metal Kooler in Dragonball Z Movie 6 
 
5) Jackie Chan (you *knew* there had to be a Jacke Chan fight scene in 
here, didn't you?), Samo Hung and Yeung Biao vs Yuen Wah, Bennie the Jet 
and a zillion mooks at the end of "Dragons Forever". 
 
Honorable mentions include: 
The opening gunfight in "Hard Boiled" 
The final gunfight in "The Killer" 
Chow Yun Fat vs some mooks in in the begining of "Full Contact" 
Jubei's fight with Tessa at the begining of "Ninja Scroll" 
Jubei's fight with Genma at the end of "Ninja Scroll" 
Jubei and Kagero's fight with Utsutsu in the middle of "Ninja Scroll" 
(hmm... seem to be in a rut there) 
Deunan Knute vs a bunch of terrorists in a collapsed building in Appleseed 
book 4 (I think) 
Bruce Lee vs a zillion goons in Dr. Han's basement in "Enter the Dragon" 
Jackie Chan vs Ken Lo in "Drunken Master II" 
Jackie Chan vs Bennie the Jet in "Wheels on Meals" 
 
Hmm... I seem to be a bit sparse in the comic department... 
Okay, one last one then: 
 
Manji vs the other immortal guy in Call of the Worm #3 ("Blade of the 
Immortal"). 
 
Uh... hmmm only one western comic ... oh well. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion * 
 
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                * 
 
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        * 
 
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:23:24 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Infra-Red Vision 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 21 
 
On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria wrote: 
 
>    By default, does someone with powers like infrared vision, ultravision, 
> etc. works at the same time with each other and normal sight or the  
> character would have to specify which one he is using ? 
 
I would say that IR vision is 'on' by default, unless the IR vision is in 
a focus or multipower. 
 
>    Is Infra-Red and ultravision targeting senses by default ? Ultravision 
> I think is because it says it is like normal sight, but what about the 
> infrared? 
 
Both IR and UV are in the sight group, and the sight group is a trageting 
sense.  So, yes, both are targeting senses by default. 
 
>    How do you usually consider the way infra-red works? Does it just see 
> what we would normally see but seeing the temperature instead of the 
> colors (light reflected) of the objects, or could it also see through cold 
> things (walls example) and see the hot things in there (people example) ? 
 
Uh... IR should let you see tempature gradients.  Hot things are red, 
orange, yellow or white, while cool things are dark red to black.  By 
nature, IR has some X-ray or N-ray capabilites.  I do know that one can 
use an IR scope to look into a stand of trees and pick out people and warm 
engines that would normally be hidden by leaves.  As to looking through 
walls?  I'll let some of the people with military experience answer that. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Test 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:28:30 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: hero-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Got your test. 
The list is up. 
all the bounces are about a month old or more... 
so something way out in the boondocks of the net has just figured out it can't 
get the lists mail or something... 
 
 
>  
> This is a test. 
>  
> I've just gotten 20+ bounced messages from numerous people.  This is 
> getting out of hand. 
>  
> *************************************************************************** 
> * "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
> *               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
> *        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
> *              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
> *            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
> * Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
> *************************************************************************** 
>  
 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:50:04 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Fights! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 24 
 
Okay, now that people have started to mention their favorite fights, what 
suggestions to people have to make Hero fights move (or work) like this 
fictional fights? 
 
For example: In a lot of martial arts flims the hero (or heroes) will one 
punch his way through the 'popcorn' until he reaches the big boss.  In 
Feng Shui they handle this with a system where the mooks are either up or 
down.  There is no damage to worry about.   
 
Example Two:  Ever watch a John Woo gunfight?  (See Face/Off, The Killer 
or Hard Boiled). Any suggestions on how to get the characters moving 
around the battle field?  I mean people in these fights are leaping 
through windows, over tables, sliding down stairs etc. 
 
How about location?  Any ideas on how to get the characters to move from 
one entire local to another?  By this I dont mean bouncing around in the 
current fight scene, I'm talking more of the Indiana Jones styled fast 
moving sequence where the characters go from point A to point B to point C 
in a short period of time (usually battling someone at the same time). 
 
Mega Damage: Cell points his fist and vaporizes a city.  Hulk tosses Power 
Man through some skyscrapers.  Spidey gets the Capt Universe power and 
punches Hulk into orbit.   
 
Doinng some (or all) of this is Hero System can get might expensive (or 
impossible).  Is this a case of differing point values, or should the GM 
just 'wing it' when describing certain types of damage.  Would it be out 
of line for the 60 STR brick to pick up a character and toss him *through* 
a building with no damage dice rolled? 
 
Finally, any ideas on how to siumlate the fast and furious action of a 
good one-on-one fencing match or martial arts fight?  Limit the characters 
time to make descisions?  Have a lot of stuff rolled out in advance?   
 
Feedback appreciated.  I'll probably collect everyone's comments annd 
write a Herozine article or something. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:00:03 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: RE: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 26 
 
 
Five Funniest Fight Scenes: 
 
Batman vs. Guy Gardner (ringless!) in Justice League. "One Punch!" 
 
The interminable "Put on these glasses" fight in They Live. 
 
Suicide Squad vs. the Justice League. (The Martian Manhunter & Vixen have 
a touching reunion, Deadshot's Psych Lims won't let him shoot Batman, 
Captain Atom and Nightshade are *dating*, so Batman & Rick Flagg are the 
only ones who actually fight, and beat each other to a pulp.) 
 
King Arthur vs. the Black Knight in Monty Python & the Holy Grail. "It's 
just a flesh wound!" 
 
Jack Burton's contribution to the wedding battle in BTILC. 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 07:30:47 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Characteristics 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 29 
 
At 08:01 AM 12/2/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
> I have heard of Penetrating PRE, used in Presence attacks. 
 
   Only if PRE Defense (PRE, Defensive Only) is in play does this make any 
sense at all, and since a PRE Attack gives an "effect" as opposed to 
"damage" it wouldn't make any difference in play. 
 
>I have also heard of Advantages like Reduced END applied to STR. 
 
   This is actually relatively common among Bricks. 
 
>Could you apply other Advantages to Characteristics? 
 
   Sure.  It depends on what the player is trying to model. 
 
> Difficult to DIspel and Useable by Others seem to be 
>able to adapt to all Char. 
 
   To an extent, anyway.  DtD would be universal (depending on SFX), but 
UBO is a controversial application in the first place.  Most GMs would 
prefer Aid (though the dynamic in this case is different). 
 
>                         ...STR could be coupled with a number 
>of offensive Advantages (Area of Effect to represent the use of a 
>long 'brick-ripped' weapon [someone cited this earlier], AP,  
>Double Knockback, Penetrating, & Reduced END;  more questionable 
>Advantages in my mind: Autofire [how would this function with attacks? 
>all attacks that utilize STR? what about HtH weapon use?], Affects 
>Desolidified [would this let you 'touch' Desolid characters?],  
>Continous, Damage Shield [I don't see these happening], Invisible 
>Power Effects [...I don't know.  Invisible to Touch for a light handed 
>theif?], NND [leaning towards a negative], No Range Penalty [would this 
>allow bricks to throw boulders w/o penalty?], Variable Special Effects 
>[How would this work?]. 
 
   This last item is used by Starhand, one of the Hand villain group in 
Challenges for Champions.  An alien invaded his hand and can alter the way 
his strength is focused. 
 
> My questions are:  How do the Advantages affect the aspects of 
>a Char. (STR used with a weapon, for example; a character with 
>a STR 20 Penetrating would be able to lift as much as a character 
>with STR 20, I would assume)?  How would the primary CHar. affect 
>secondary Char. (Difficult to Dispel CON effects on END) 
 
   According to what's written, a Characteristic with Advantages 
automatically takes No Figured Characteristics with no bonus.  The only 
cases where I've seen Advantages on a Characteristic, though, have been 
with STR (usually Reduced END, but Armor Piercing and Variable Advantage as 
well, that I can think of specific examples for), and this rule is not 
applied in any case that I'm aware of. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 07:35:35 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Infra-Red Vision 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 30 
 
At 08:54 AM 12/2/97 -0200, Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria wrote: 
>   By default, does someone with powers like infrared vision, ultravision, 
>etc. works at the same time with each other and normal sight or the  
>character would have to specify which one he is using ? 
 
   By default they are all active at once, just as all other senses (sight, 
hearing, touch, etc.) are active at once. 
 
>   Is Infra-Red and ultravision targeting senses by default ? Ultravision 
>I think is because it says it is like normal sight, but what about the 
>infrared? 
 
   I've generally treated IR Vision as Targeting. 
 
>   How do you usually consider the way infra-red works? Does it just see 
>what we would normally see but seeing the temperature instead of the 
>colors (light reflected) of the objects, or could it also see through cold 
>things (walls example) and see the hot things in there (people example) ? 
 
   I've generally allowed the latter application only in specific 
circumstances; among them that the things being seen through have to be of 
the same temperature as the environment.  (The situation hasn't come up 
very often, though, so I may be a bad person to ask.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 07:40:15 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwidth Question #1 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 28 
 
At 02:55 AM 12/2/97 -0600, Michael Nunn wrote: 
>The best fight scene in any movie has to be the fight between, 
>Roddy Piper and David Keith in "They Live"  not only a great fight  
>but the reason they fight... 
>Piper "Put on these glasses." 
>Keith "No way and I putting on thoses glasses." 
>Piper "Put on these glasses or eat that trash can." 
 
   This brings to mind (for reasons unknown to me) what was my first 
instinct as an answer to the original question, except that I wasn't sure 
it'd qualify. 
   My all-time favorite battle is from an early episode of "The Young 
Indiana Jones Chronicles," where Indy is matching multilinguistic skills 
with a young woman who would later become his lady love. 
   Not a single blow is struck, except to Indy's ego ("With a name like 
Jones, you don't speak Welsh?").  Yet I see feints, parries, surprise 
moves, and enough action to keep me on the edge of my seat. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Test 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 16:37:58 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: hero-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> >I am still getting these bounced mail messages. The number is now 40+ 
>  
>    Where I'm at, it exceeds 300, and it's still growing.  It took nearly an 
> hour for me to download it all at 9600 baud.  (Hence my proposal re: the 
> person responsible in another post.) 
 
	Boy I'm glad I'm connected through a telnet session from a terminal 
on multiple T3's right now... 
 
	I've hit the 'D' key for delete more times than I want to know today... 
 
I hope this clears up before I go home and am stuck downloading 3 gigs on 
a 33.6 connection just to read the real mail... 
 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: End of the bouncing message? Not really 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 16:53:56 +0000 (GMT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Hello; 
 
	I read a few of the most recent bounces and discovered they were 
messages new from today. 
	As I'm sitting on a T3 right now, I imagine I'm getting this faster 
than the rest of you. 
 
	So while they will appear to finally drop off, it looks as if they've 
only caught up. I'd guess it took about a hundred to reach this point. 
 
	Doubtless this message will bounce too. 
 
The bounces seem to be about 4 hours behind right now. 
 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: NetMgr+@ima.infomail.com (NetMgr+) 
Date: 02 Dec 97 12:18:12 -0600 
X-To: hero-l@october.com 
Subject: Bounced message 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
X-Smtp-Ip-Host: yakuza.fc.net ip 207.170.70.19 
X-Smtp-Mail-From: ima!netmgr+@yakuza.fc.net 
Organization: Austin InfoMail Association - Austin, Texas 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
Please note that the system that this message was addressed to no 
longer exists, or is not a Member of the IMA Gateway system,  and  
that the below message is undeliverable. So it is being deleted. 
  
It would be a good idea to confirm that you are using the correct address. 
  
If this is a valid system, but not a valid Member of the IMA, they can 
contact me at the address below about joining our gateway. 
  
Also, if this is a mailing list, please remove the intended recipient 
from all of your configs and listings. The address of the intended 
recipient is listed right after the "Apparently-to:" line towards the 
top of the text below. 
  
Note: If the original message WAS part of a mailing list, and you're 
unable to remove this person from the listing, please forward a copy of 
this message to the list keeper (coordinator) for removal. 
  
Thanks, 
       John McAlpin  -  IMA Gatekeeper 
       john.mcalpin@1202.ima.infomail.com 
       FidoNet 1:382/1202 
  
(NONODE.TXT) 
Original message: 
 
-- 
Date: Sun Oct 26 '97, 23:12:00 
Attr: pvt fwd kil  
From: Opal, (1:382/87.0) 
To  : hero-l, (1:382/111.0) 
Subj: Re: Comic book martial a 
-- 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
@Subject: Re: Comic book martial a 
@Message-Id: <cef_9710270035@october.com> 
@X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com 
@Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
@Precedence: bulk 
@Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
@Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
@Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
@To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
 h >  
 h > What you've got to do as a GM is to _restrict_ everybody else's DEX to  
 h > lower levels. Martial Artists built to 'realistic' standards will get  
 h > creamed every time by those DEX 18 Bricks. Ask the other players (and N  
 h > villians) why they should, under their character concept, get more than  
 h > DEX. Suddenly that 23 DEX martial artist isn't looking so bad - especia  
  
Some non-martial artist concepts (speedsters for instance) also call for  
superhuman DEX.  And, it seems wrong to artificially restrict what  
other characters buy.  A non-superhuman (DEX 17-20, SPD 4) Martial Artist  
can certainly hold his own against serious super-heros, even if everyone  
else is running arround at DEX 23, SPD 5.  Level can be the great equilizer  
in such a situation. If you look at the published stuff, most characters  
have either no levels, or only a few.  The most you see is 4 or 5.  
So, after you've spent say, 40 pts on your martial arts (giving you  
say, 4 DC's and a substantial range of manuevers, including an offensive  
strike, so you can do 12d with your 20 STR), drop another 15 into  
martial arts levels (thats +5), and another 15 into DCV levels to  
help out against ranged attacks (+3).  Your DCV with a Martial Dodge  
is now (assuming 20 DEX) 20!  The cool part is that you dodge, and keep  
that obscene DCV until your next phase, while higher SPD characters  
either save and waste phases or throw attacks at you hoping to roll  
a 3.  :)   I've done pretty well with characters like this, both against 
 
really fast Speedsters and Martial Artists, and tougher brick types.  
Of course you better get a little armore so you don't get killed  
when your luck runs out and that autofire KA/hurrled car/firball/  
whatever taggs you when you least expect it.  
  
Still, the 'normal' (Stat wise) Martial Artist can work, you just  
need very abnormal skill.  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
 
--- 
  -- 
  | Fidonet: NetMgr+ 1:382/86 
  |Internet: NetMgr+@ima.infomail.com 
  | 
  |Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly their own. 
 
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 13:19:20 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Odd abilities. 
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org" 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 32 
 
	Here are some odd abilities I need to simulate: 
	 
	Imposing bad luck on others within a certain of the character 
generating the power. 
 
	Having a creature who disappears as soon as sunlight touches it, 
and reappears when night time consumes the area again. 
 
	The ability of a certain creature to have 'enchanted blood,' 
that endows different types of creatures with different abilities. 
The effects on one type of creature are consistant (i.e. elves drinking 
the blood would grow thorns out of ther flesh, dwarves would become 
stone-like, orcs gain stregnth, humans have enhanced perception, etc.), 
and the effects eventually wear off. 
	[I know this would be a transform.  I just need to know how one 
can 'tap' the 'units' of blood & how to balance out the temporary trans- 
formations]. 
 
	The ability to utterly and totally financially ruin someone within 
a period of days with one phone call. 
	[Things crossed my mind like 'Drain Wealth' and 'Transform: Poverty.' 
If you think that's bad, how the heck would you "target" such a person? 
Or would you "target" their assets?]. 
 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:51:21 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Odd abilities. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
 
> 	Here are some odd abilities I need to simulate: 
> 	 
> 	Imposing bad luck on others within a certain of the character 
> generating the power. 
 
Well... there are a number of ways of simulating 'bad luck'.  One would be 
to buy 'x' dice of (un)Luck.  It say that enough dice of (un)Luck will 
affect your team mates, so...  This power should have Ranged, Area of 
Effect and Personal Immunity on it. 
 
Another way is to buy Invisible & Indirect TK.  Possibly with a limitation 
of "Bad Luck Effects Only". 
 
The third way is to buy a VPP with Advantages such as No Skill Roll and No 
Time to Change.  This would be balanced out by limitations such as 
"Limited SFX - Bad Luck Effects" and "Can't be conciously activated by 
character" 
  
> 	Having a creature who disappears as soon as sunlight touches it, 
> and reappears when night time consumes the area again. 
 
Triggered Extra-Dimensional Movement. 
 
> 	The ability of a certain creature to have 'enchanted blood,' 
> that endows different types of creatures with different abilities. 
> The effects on one type of creature are consistant (i.e. elves drinking 
> the blood would grow thorns out of ther flesh, dwarves would become 
> stone-like, orcs gain stregnth, humans have enhanced perception, etc.), 
> and the effects eventually wear off. 
> 	[I know this would be a transform.  I just need to know how one 
> can 'tap' the 'units' of blood & how to balance out the temporary trans- 
> formations]. 
 
I don't think this should matter as a power.  Sure, you are using 
Transform (with a limitation of 'semi-random effects).  The rest of that 
should be simple plot line.  You could say 1 dose per Body in the 
creature, although getting all the doses might take some time (you would 
have to render the creature down for starters).  Balancing the 
transformations is easy; just make all of them use the same Active Points.   
 
> 	The ability to utterly and totally financially ruin someone within 
> a period of days with one phone call. 
 
Dunno, but I want that power too. 
 
> 	[Things crossed my mind like 'Drain Wealth' and 'Transform: Poverty.' 
> If you think that's bad, how the heck would you "target" such a person? 
> Or would you "target" their assets?]. 
 
You don't.  This is the realm of plot.  Figure who is doing the call, and 
who they know.  In my cyberpunk game, there is a 200 point fixer who could 
do this trick easy.  Sge doesn't have any special powers, but she has a 
big list of contacts, favors and wealth.  For her, ruining someone 
finacially would just take 1 call at which point the GM takes over and 
decides what happens to the target. 
 
The same holds true for a hacker character from the same game.  She 
doesn't need any specific powers, she has enough Comp Prog and SC: 
Computer Virus Construction to write an asset eating bug in no time (and 
set it loose on some poor sap). 
 
This isn't a power, this is where the PC finds out exactly what NCI stands 
for next to that Hunted on his character sheet. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 10:55:36 -0800 
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com> 
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com 
Subject: Re: Fights! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>Example Two:  Ever watch a John Woo gunfight?  (See Face/Off, The Killer 
>or Hard Boiled). Any suggestions on how to get the characters moving 
>around the battle field?  I mean people in these fights are leaping 
>through windows, over tables, sliding down stairs etc. 
 
A). Give people DCV plusses for doing cool things 
	(if you dont want to be arbitrary about it encourage your players 
	to take dcv levels based on acrobatics (or a dex roll) and then 
	make them describe their actions) 
 
B). Give them presence attacks 
	(Player "I run across the restarunt by jumping from tabletop to 
	tabletop while screaming and rapidfiring both of my 9mils. 
	GM "Thats good for +3d6 to a pressence attack) 
	Lost phases here and there among the mooks ('popcorn') does great 
	thing for the PC's survival rates. 
 
C).	Make use of cover, players will be alot more willing to make  
	dramatic dives for cover if they know that they will get DCV 
	plusses for being behind things, and extra def if they do get hit 
	To make them move more have their cover destroyed, after all 
	the average table can only take so much gunfire befor it stops 
	blocking bullets 
 
D). Use all the "rude rules" Imparing, disabling, bleeding (the bleeding 
	rules that let you bleed to death from a 1 body wound) hit locations 
	all the fun ones. Knowing that damage hurts will encourage players to 
	do whatever it takes to not get hit. (Just don't use them during 
	fights between PC's and mooks, well not on the pc's anyway (And always 
	roll hit locations	behind a screen, 'cause mooks never roll head shots 
	(unless the plot calls for it))). 
 
mcallahan@home.com 
 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:06:04 PST 
From: "Salmon,David" <David_Salmon@wb.xerox.com> 
Subject: Re: Infra-Red Vision 
Posting-date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 14:11:37 -0500 
Priority: normal 
Hop-count: 3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In regards to Infra-Red seeing "thru" things. 
 
Does anyone remember the movie Robocop?  Robo uses infra-red vision to  
 target the wacked out politician who was holding people hostage. He  
 saw the guys heat pattern/image/body-outline thru the wall, targeted  
 him and did a grab thru the wall. It seems to me that there is an  
 implied x-ray type ability to infra-red vision, depending of course on  
 wall thickness, variance of temperatures between the wall and the  
 target, etc. ( sounds like a GM call to me). Hope this clarified it for you. 
 
 
...Dave S. 
 
 
 
 
 
---------- 
From: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Infra-Red Vision 
Date: Tuesday, December 02, 1997 7:35AM 
 
At 08:54 AM 12/2/97 -0200, Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria wrote: 
>   By default, does someone with powers like infrared vision, ultravision, 
>etc. works at the same time with each other and normal sight or the  
>character would have to specify which one he is using ? 
 
   By default they are all active at once, just as all other senses (sight, 
hearing, touch, etc.) are active at once. 
 
>   Is Infra-Red and ultravision targeting senses by default ? Ultravision 
>I think is because it says it is like normal sight, but what about the 
>infrared? 
 
   I've generally treated IR Vision as Targeting. 
 
>   How do you usually consider the way infra-red works? Does it just see 
>what we would normally see but seeing the temperature instead of the 
>colors (light reflected) of the objects, or could it also see through cold 
>things (walls example) and see the hot things in there (people example) ? 
 
   I've generally allowed the latter application only in specific 
circumstances; among them that the things being seen through have to be of 
the same temperature as the environment.  (The situation hasn't come up 
very often, though, so I may be a bad person to ask.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:36:44 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> > 	-Tim Roth's character vs Rob Roy at the end of Rob Roy 
> 
> I forgot about this one.  I bought 'previously viewed' copy of this movie 
> just for this fight scene. 
 
	Beautiful ending to that movie.  The earlier fight scenes were 
quite good as well, overall the best movie sword combat since Flynn's 
heyday. 
 
> > 	-Urotsokidoji -- wait, that wasn't a *fight* scene . . . 
> 
> In Urotsukidoji III, the fight between Amano Jyaku and Munihausen on top 
> of 6 nuclear missles was memorable.:) 
 
	Amano Jyaku was decent in the fight throughout the city in the 
first movie, but that isn't a series remarkable for its fights.  At least, 
not it's major feature. 
 
> > 	-Snake Pliskin vs. the big gladiator in Escape from New York (he 
> > was really fighting for his life in that one) 
> 
> Well, consider the gladiator was Ox Baker, from my home town of 
> Indianapolis.  He accidently killed two men in the wrestling ring as a pro 
> wrestler, so you are right on here.  REALLY fighting for his life:) 
 
 
	Yeah.  In the director's release they're talking about the fight, 
and Ox just didn't seem to have the point of restraint and "fake" combat. 
That club with nail could have easily been the end of Kurt Russel. 
 
 
		-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 14:48:34 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
> > > 	-Urotsokidoji -- wait, that wasn't a *fight* scene . . . 
> > 
> > In Urotsukidoji III, the fight between Amano Jyaku and Munihausen on top 
> > of 6 nuclear missles was memorable.:) 
>  
> 	Amano Jyaku was decent in the fight throughout the city in the 
> first movie, but that isn't a series remarkable for its fights.  At least, 
> not it's major feature. 
 
<cough cough> Ahem... that's one way to put it...   
I will admit the fight between Amano and (uhmm) Sweetkakaju (sp?) had a 
lot of cool stuff in it. 
 
 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 14:51:35 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Bounced messages from hero-l list coming to me for some reason. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Brian Wong wrote: 
 
>         I just recieved about 7 messages from October which I'd sent to the 
> list. 
>         I know they got to the list originally as I recall reading them 
> and having some of them discussed by others. 
>         My assumption is someone who dropped out some time back is finally bounc 
> ing and for some reason I'm getting it all... 
 
I'm getting the same thing.  I have no idea where these are bouncing, from 
since the 'Assumed To:' address doesn't show in the returned mail. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:37:45 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Test 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
This is a test. 
 
I've just gotten 20+ bounced messages from numerous people.  This is 
getting out of hand. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:47:26 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Character experience 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, qts wrote: 
 
> Would people agree that there is a general progression of experience 
> reflected by cost in the various frameworks? 
>  
> With a multipower, generally a character can only use one or two powers 
> at the same time. 
>  
> With an Elemental Control, a character can demonstrate their skill by 
> performing all their tricks at the same time. 
>  
> With a Variable Power Pool, a character can demonstrate their mastery 
> by doing *anything* [related to the SFX and guided by the Limitations, 
> of course]. 
>  
 
I disagree strongly that the frameworks represent a progression of 
experience. They *might* represent such a progression, if it suited a 
character's special effects, but the frameworks are more likely to be 
employed to simulate effects which won't blend into one another with 
experience. 
 
A multipower, for example, might represent a limited power supply for a 
number of gadgets. No matter how good you are with that laser pistol, it's 
still going to cut into the energy for your anti-grav boots. Or it might 
consist of ultra-slots of mutually exclusive powers or weapons - no amount 
of experience is going to let you assume your flame form and your water 
form at the same time. Speaking of ultra slots, consider their inspiration 
- Ultra Boy of the Legion of Super Heroes. Pre-Zero Hour, he got quite 
experienced but could still only use one power at a time; it was just the 
way his powers worked. 
 
Moreover, a VPP is more than the product of experience. There's a 
difference between being very very good at using one's abilities and being 
able to do *anything*. 
 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: Miq Millman <miq@teleport.com> 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:29:07 -0800 (PST) 
X-To: hero-l@october.com 
Subject: Re: Bounced message 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
X-Smtp-Ip-Host: nmail.netgate.net ip 204.145.147.77 
X-Smtp-Mail-From: miq@teleport.com 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
I think its pretty rude to be bouncing messages that are three weeks old 
back to a mailing list, as well as rather obtuse.  If you send it back, the 
same message is going to start a loop of bounces for you.  Please stop this 
trashing of emailboxes, most of the 850+ recipients can't help and sending 
admin stuff to a list is very bad form in any case. 
 
 
--  
__ 
Miq Millman   miq@teleport.com   
Tualatin, OR 
 
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com> 
Subject: Re: Test 
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 15:36:03 CST 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> This is a test. 
>  
> I've just gotten 20+ bounced messages from numerous people.  This is 
> getting out of hand. 
 
Actually, you're receiving them from one person; all of the list's 
messages are bouncing from one site, where I assume someone's lost  
their access or their job. 
 
 
DonM. 
 
-- 
========================================================================= 
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist,              (217) 239-8365 =  
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL     dmckinne@cmi.csc.com = 
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 = 
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org    (217) 469-9917 =  
========================================================================= 
 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:59:07 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Infra-Red Vision 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> In regards to Infra-Red seeing "thru" things. 
 
	Were talking about the Hero power, not necessarily the over-all 
SFX. 
 
> Does anyone remember the movie Robocop?  Robo uses infra-red vision to 
>  target the wacked out politician who was holding people hostage. He 
>  saw the guys heat pattern/image/body-outline thru the wall, targeted 
>  him and did a grab thru the wall. It seems to me that there is an 
>  implied x-ray type ability to infra-red vision, depending of course on 
>  wall thickness, variance of temperatures between the wall and the 
>  target, etc. ( sounds like a GM call to me). Hope this clarified it for you. 
 
 
	Nope.  You're mistaking a SFX in the movie for a power with a 
similar name.  That ability (seeing through a wall, heat related) is 
actually exactly what N-Ray is meant to simulate.  It just has a thermal 
vision flavor. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
X-Originating-IP: [206.88.2.1] 
From: "Todd Hanson" <badtodd@hotmail.com> 
Subject: All these damn bounce messages 
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 16:09:59 CST 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
All of these messages are being bounced from the Red October mailing  
list.  It has started regurgitating old messages from the last month or  
so. 
 
Geoff, can you do something at the server level to stop messages from  
october.com until they can get this fixed? 
 
Does anybody have the email address of the guy in charge of october.com  
(bob quinlan?) so we can let him know of the problem? 
 
 
Todd 
 
______________________________________________________ 
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com 
 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:22:51 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net 
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
Subject: Re: Test 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org, hero-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I am still getting these bounced mail messages. The number is now 40+ 
 
 
 
I know violence doesn't solve all problems... 
	But it sure feels good! 
		Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior 
 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:02:56 -0800 (PST) 
From: hero-l@omg.org 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
Subject: None 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
X-Smtp-Ip-Host: yakuza.fc.net ip 207.170.70.19 
X-Smtp-Mail-From: ima!netmgr+@yakuza.fc.net 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:10:43 -0800 (PST) 
From: hero-l@omg.org 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
Subject: None 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
X-Smtp-Ip-Host: yakuza.fc.net ip 207.170.70.19 
X-Smtp-Mail-From: ima!netmgr+@yakuza.fc.net 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:11:13 -0800 (PST) 
From: hero-l@omg.org 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
Subject: None 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
X-Smtp-Ip-Host: yakuza.fc.net ip 207.170.70.19 
X-Smtp-Mail-From: ima!netmgr+@yakuza.fc.net 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 15:14:04 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: All these damn bounce messages 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 04:09 PM 12/2/97 CST, Todd Hanson wrote: 
>All of these messages are being bounced from the Red October mailing  
>list.  It has started regurgitating old messages from the last month or  
>so. 
> 
>Geoff, can you do something at the server level to stop messages from  
>october.com until they can get this fixed? 
> 
>Does anybody have the email address of the guy in charge of october.com  
>(bob quinlan?) so we can let him know of the problem? 
 
   They don't look to me like they're being bounced from Red October; 
rather, from someone at Austin Imformation Association (ima.infomail.com). 
My guess is that someone who subscribed to the list either lost his address 
there, or dropped it without telling the list manager. 
   If this is a case of someone being irresponsible, I hereby nominate that 
individual for Deep Bat Guano Diver of the Year. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 02 Dec 1997 18:14:09 -0500 
Lines: 32 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes: 
 
MS> I'd heard that Rathbone had to really down play his skill in orde to make 
MS> Flynn look good on camera. 
 
At least partially. 
  
[...] 
 
MS> So, Danny Kaye knew how to use a sword, or was he just that 'out of 
MS> control'? 
 
Kaye was out of control.  That is what makes that scene so tense to a fan 
of fight choreography. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 15:23:36 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Infra-Red Vision 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:59 PM 12/2/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>> In regards to Infra-Red seeing "thru" things. 
> 
> Were talking about the Hero power, not necessarily the over-all 
>SFX. 
> 
>> Does anyone remember the movie Robocop?  Robo uses infra-red vision to 
>>  target the wacked out politician who was holding people hostage. He 
>>  saw the guys heat pattern/image/body-outline thru the wall, targeted 
>>  him and did a grab thru the wall. It seems to me that there is an 
>>  implied x-ray type ability to infra-red vision, depending of course on 
>>  wall thickness, variance of temperatures between the wall and the 
>>  target, etc. ( sounds like a GM call to me). Hope this clarified it for 
you. 
> 
> Nope.  You're mistaking a SFX in the movie for a power with a 
>similar name.  That ability (seeing through a wall, heat related) is 
>actually exactly what N-Ray is meant to simulate.  It just has a thermal 
>vision flavor. 
 
   Just for the record, I'm with Tim on this one. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 15:33:25 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Test 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:22 PM 12/2/97 -0500, Kim Foster wrote: 
>I am still getting these bounced mail messages. The number is now 40+ 
 
   Where I'm at, it exceeds 300, and it's still growing.  It took nearly an 
hour for me to download it all at 9600 baud.  (Hence my proposal re: the 
person responsible in another post.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 18:45:14 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Reduced END Movement & NCM 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Mark Lemming wrote: 
>Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>> I would let the Player buy this, and it would mean that he only 
>> gets the 1/2 END cost at speeds up to his base x2 NCM.  If he goes 
>> faster, he burns full END. 
> 
>Problem. You do not spend additional END for Non-Combat Movement. 
>I'd say the page number, but the BBB is not at my work. 
> 
No, *normally* you don't.  But if you only bought 1/2 END on your inches of 
Flight, I'd rule that you would burn *normal* END costs at NC speeds. 
 
>> I also let Players buy differing END costs on parts of a Power. 
>> Ex: EBs that are exponentially difficult (higher END cost for 
>> additional dice). 
> 
>Perfectly OK, but a different topic. 
> 
Thank you, I thought it was alright, too.  But it *is* related, as (with 
this ruling) you could even take Increased END *just* on NCM, and burn 
extra END at NC speeds... See?  It all relates!  (Although I didn't see it 
myself, until just now.) 
 
- Jerry 
 
Catching up on 1 1/2 weeks of e-mail... 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: NetMgr+@ima.infomail.com (NetMgr+) 
Date: 02 Dec 97 17:47:30 -0600 
X-To: hero-l@october.com 
Subject: Bounced message 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
X-Smtp-Ip-Host: yakuza.fc.net ip 207.170.70.19 
X-Smtp-Mail-From: ima!netmgr+@yakuza.fc.net 
Organization: Austin InfoMail Association - Austin, Texas 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 65 
 
 
 
Please note that the system that this message was addressed to no 
longer exists, or is not a Member of the IMA Gateway system,  and  
that the below message is undeliverable. So it is being deleted. 
  
It would be a good idea to confirm that you are using the correct address. 
  
If this is a valid system, but not a valid Member of the IMA, they can 
contact me at the address below about joining our gateway. 
  
Also, if this is a mailing list, please remove the intended recipient 
from all of your configs and listings. The address of the intended 
recipient is listed right after the "Apparently-to:" line towards the 
top of the text below. 
  
Note: If the original message WAS part of a mailing list, and you're 
unable to remove this person from the listing, please forward a copy of 
this message to the list keeper (coordinator) for removal. 
  
Thanks, 
       John McAlpin  -  IMA Gatekeeper 
       john.mcalpin@1202.ima.infomail.com 
       FidoNet 1:382/1202 
  
(NONODE.TXT) 
Original message: 
 
-- 
Date: Tue Dec 02 '97, 12:29:12 
Attr: pvt fwd kil  
From: NetMgr+, (1:382/87.0) 
To  : hero-l, (1:382/111.0) 
Subj: Bounced message 
-- 
From: NetMgr+@ima.infomail.com (NetMgr+) 
@X-To: hero-l@october.com 
@Subject: Bounced message 
@Message-Id: <1db_9712021255@ima.infomail.com> 
@Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
@Precedence: bulk 
@Organization: Austin InfoMail Association - Austin, Texas 
@Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
@Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
@To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
Please note that the system that this message was addressed to no 
longer exists, or is not a Member of the IMA Gateway system,  and  
that the below message is undeliverable. So it is being deleted. 
  
It would be a good idea to confirm that you are using the correct address. 
  
If this is a valid system, but not a valid Member of the IMA, they can 
contact me at the address below about joining our gateway. 
  
Also, if this is a mailing list, please remove the intended recipient 
from all of your configs and listings. The address of the intended 
recipient is listed right after the "Apparently-to:" line towards the 
top of the text below. 
  
Note: If the original message WAS part of a mailing list, and you're 
unable to remove this person from the listing, please forward a copy of 
this message to the list keeper (coordinator) for removal. 
  
Thanks, 
       John McAlpin  -  IMA Gatekeeper 
       john.mcalpin@1202.ima.infomail.com 
       FidoNet 1:382/1202 
  
(NONODE.TXT) 
Original message: 
 
-- 
Date: Fri Nov 28 '97, 00:44:10 
Attr: pvt fwd kil  
From: Michael Adams, (1:382/87.0) 
To  : hero-l, (1:382/111.0) 
Subj: Re: Writing Up Yourself how good is good? 
-- 
From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams) 
@Subject: Re: Writing Up Yourself how good is good? 
@Message-Id: <cd7_9711272300@october.com> 
@X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com 
@Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
@Precedence: bulk 
@Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
@Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
@Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
@To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
Yes, 250 yards with a even brand new Army Colt M1911A1 is rediculous. Most 
people can not hit at 25 yards let alone what some people can hit at 50 yards 
(people who practice can hit possibly 50 yards, and generally that is at a 
pistol match. With no one shooting at you and like. 
 
But in the real world the .45 is brobably been around for a while and the sites 
have not been zeroed, the bore/barrel is worn down some, the ammo is possibly 
old (been in storage for a while), you have just run 100+ yards zigzag, people 
are shooting at you, you are getting orders or giving them (45s normally were 
officers/NCO weapons, bombs blowing up around you, chances of mines. Maybe even 
wearing a protective mask, and you want me to hit more than 25 yards with it, I 
doubt it. 
 
Opps, forgot,you might also be in the prone position (laying down), out of 
wind. Major part of shooting is breath control. 
 
Mike Adams 
PS: I have shot M60, M16, 9mm competatively, as well as shot M60, M16, M249 
(SAW) in mock combat and I am amazed I hit anything, even with the weapon zerod 
(mock combat that is). 
 
 
 
 
--- 
  -- 
  | Fidonet: NetMgr+ 1:382/86 
  |Internet: NetMgr+@ima.infomail.com 
  | 
  |Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly their own. 
 
 
--- 
  -- 
  | Fidonet: NetMgr+ 1:382/86 
  |Internet: NetMgr+@ima.infomail.com 
  | 
  |Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly their own. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Reduced END Movement & NCM 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 02 Dec 1997 19:04:12 -0500 
Lines: 30 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes: 
 
JD> No, *normally* you don't.  But if you only bought 1/2 END on your 
JD> inches of Flight, I'd rule that you would burn *normal* END costs at NC 
JD> speeds. 
 
Then by logical extension, if you buy 0 END cost on your movement power, 
because it is effortless for whatever reason, it would still require the 
normal END cost for all-out movement. 
 
I can understand paying END if one pushes such a power, but not for all-out 
movement multiples. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: "VANSICKLE, James" <jvansickle@shl.com> 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 18:25:25 -0600 
X-To: "'Multiple recipients of Hero'" <hero-l@october.com> 
Subject: RE: Bounced message 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
X-Smtp-Ip-Host: docws007.shl.com ip 159.249.56.7 
X-Smtp-Mail-From: jvansickle@shl.com 
Encoding: 121 TEXT 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
Is there anyone monitoring the server that could block this?  This 
message has hit the point of irritating. 
 
>---------- 
>From: 	NetMgr+[SMTP:NetMgr+@ima.infomail.com] 
>Reply To: 	Multiple recipients of Hero 
>Sent: 	Tuesday, December 02, 1997 6:23 PM 
>To: 	champ-l@omg.org 
>Subject: 	Bounced message 
> 
> 
> 
>Please note that the system that this message was addressed to no 
>longer exists, or is not a Member of the IMA Gateway system,  and  
>that the below message is undeliverable. So it is being deleted. 
>  
>It would be a good idea to confirm that you are using the correct address. 
>  
>If this is a valid system, but not a valid Member of the IMA, they can 
>contact me at the address below about joining our gateway. 
>  
>Also, if this is a mailing list, please remove the intended recipient 
>from all of your configs and listings. The address of the intended 
>recipient is listed right after the "Apparently-to:" line towards the 
>top of the text below. 
>  
>Note: If the original message WAS part of a mailing list, and you're 
>unable to remove this person from the listing, please forward a copy of 
>this message to the list keeper (coordinator) for removal. 
>  
>Thanks, 
>       John McAlpin  -  IMA Gatekeeper 
>       john.mcalpin@1202.ima.infomail.com 
>       FidoNet 1:382/1202 
>  
>(NONODE.TXT) 
>Original message: 
> 
>-- 
>Date: Sat Nov 22 '97, 12:53:06 
>Attr: pvt fwd kil  
>From: Opal, (1:382/87.0) 
>To  : hero-l, (1:382/111.0) 
>Subj: Re: fantasy hero campaig 
>-- 
>From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
>@Subject: Re: fantasy hero campaig 
>@Message-Id: <78b_9711221121@october.com> 
>@X-Ftn-To: herolist@october.com 
>@Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
>@Precedence: bulk 
>@Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 * 
>@Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
>@Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
>@To: champ-l@omg.org 
> 
> 
> 
> h > From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>  
> h >  
> h > > Defenses on the other hand should be *low* and kept that way.  Don't  
> h > > let wizards have force fields.  Keep the armor you design relatively  
> h > > low-def (6 is reasonable, 8 DEF plate should be really encumbering,  
> h >  
> h > DEF 6 represent 'average' mail armor, what virtually *everyone* who  
> h > afford it wore during most of the middle ages.  The thickest (or  
> h > heaviest armor) is full plate, which is DEF 8 (or *maybe* 9).  Full pla  
> h > *isn't* all that encumbering.  A well made suit fits just was well as a  
> h >  
>  
>Oh yes, I know that.  (I started playing D&D 17 years ago, I have  
>heard that from SCA'ers sooooo many times!)  And, I'm sorry I didn't  
>mention that I was speaking from a sort of heroic fantasy (where  
>you don't want everyone armored up from head to toe, it's just  
>not that dashing - unless you're going for the sort of fairy  
>tale knight-in-shining-armour routine (or you really liked the  
>move Excalibur) in which case you wouldn't want armor to be  
>encumbering at all) and game-balance perspective.  I want players  
>to have a good reason to choose among the different types of  
>armor, not just the usual get the highest DEF and buy 'manuevering  
>in armor' DCV levels to cancel the penalty thing.  I understand  
>that its unrealistic, but I guess I just don't like realism all  
>that much (or I'd be playing GURPS by Steve 'reality check' Jackson).  
>  
> h > Note that Force Walls stop all Stun, which makes them much more  
> h > effective  
> h > than standard Armor.  Force Fields might work better for certain spell  
> h > effects.  
>  
>If you're trying to keep DEF low, it's conventient to use FW instead  
>of FF.  FF is very cheap and it can be hard to explain to the character  
>why he can't have a 5 pt spell to defend himslef.  FW keep the costs  
>(Apts, anyway), more in line, and when DEF is kept low, will be penetrated  
>much more often.  Also they're less convenient the FF - they limit what  
>you can do when hiding behind them.  
>  
>For instance, if I set a max resistant DEF of 10, some of the warriors  
>will go to the trouble of buying Independent magickal armor with that  
>def, some will take Plate, inspite of the small standard Encumbrance  
>penalty, and some will prefer slightly lighter armor.  But, all the  
>wizards will buy a 10 DEF Force Field because it is sooo cheap - and  
>all the powergamers will have 10/10 FF with 0 END & Persistant with  
>lengthy start-up rituals (for a high limitation) and Dificult to  
>Dispel.  
>  
>Of course, that's just my experience, I know some people have players  
>with more restraint.  (heck, I don't have that much restraint, I  
>like playing wizards, I want my wizard character to live!)  :) :)  
>  
>___  
> * OFFLINE 1.58  
> 
> 
>--- 
>  -- 
>  | Fidonet: NetMgr+ 1:382/86 
>  |Internet: NetMgr+@ima.infomail.com 
>  | 
>  |Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly their own. 
> 
> 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:33:24 -0500 (EST) 
cc: hero-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re:  Re: Test 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
my mailbox is overfull as well. 
Is it just my messages? 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:37:03 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re:  Re: Infra-Red Vision 
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In a message dated 12/2/97 6:42:06 PM, bob.greenwade@klock.com wrote: 
>> Nope.  You're mistaking a SFX in the movie for a power with a 
>>>actually exactly what N-Ray is meant to simulate.  It just has a thermal 
>>vision flavor. 
>   Just for the record, I'm with Tim on this one. 
 
I agree. Back in the 80's when Predator came out, 
did anyone else's (AD&D or HERO) campaign go through that: 
"Well now we know how Infravision works & looks" phase? 
-- 
Elliott 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 18:18:13 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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On Tuesday, December 02, 1997 3:50 AM, Rick Holding wrote: 
 
 
>-- The first fight between the Spaniad and Weslie in the Princess 
Bride. 
> 
>   The fight starting with the Spaniad against the guards followed by 
the 
>chase, again the Princess Bride. 
> 
>   Blind Fury. 
> 
>   Lady Hawk also comes to mind. 
 
 
There were some good ones in there. 
 
>   The first and third Highlander movies. (The second was a waste of 
time) 
 
The _third_ Highlander movie? Interesting. You are the first person 
I've talked to who didn't consider that to be absolutely awful. 
 
Filksinger 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 21:46:26 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Reduced END Movement & NCM 
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes: 
>JD> No, *normally* you don't.  But if you only bought 1/2 END on your 
>JD> inches of Flight, I'd rule that you would burn *normal* END costs at NC 
>JD> speeds. 
> 
>Then by logical extension, if you buy 0 END cost on your movement power, 
>because it is effortless for whatever reason, it would still require the 
>normal END cost for all-out movement. 
> 
>I can understand paying END if one pushes such a power, but not for all-out 
>movement multiples. 
> 
No, you'd only have to pay this normal END if you *didn't* buy it for the 
NCM.  The normal x2 NCM is free... 
If there's a problem with my reasoning, please point it out... I don't 
remember any examples of not paying for Reduced END on NCM. 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:49:12 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Robert A. Coffin" <rac@MUW.Edu> 
Subject: Help? 
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A while back on the net a friend of mine assures me he found a rather long 
article about "professional" wrestling for Champions. I have dug and dug 
and have found almost nothing.  I am looking for one of the players who, 
after watching 4 hours of WCW wrestling, had a brainstorm and wants to 
play a pro wrestler type character...any help would be great. 
 
Robyn 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 20:20:05 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Just some more confusion. 
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"qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> "champ-l@omg.org" wrote: 
 
> >       Tiki has Telekenesis.  He can use it to fly around (Flight), 
> >and to carry his friends along with him. 
> >       Tiki should buy Flight UAO for his friends.  What's the limit 
> >Tink could carry while flying? 
>  
> Tiki should buy Flight Usable BY Others.	 
	I disagree.  Tiki is the one who is in control.  Flight usable by  
others gives control of the flight to the others.  Tiki is carrying them  
with TK.  He should buy AoE or Explosion on his TK to represent him  
carrying them with perhaps a selective advantage if he has fine control. 
 
>  
> > His STR or his TK's STR?  Could 
> >TK 'carry' and object along with him using his TK while flying? 
> >       If Tiki picked up an object (like a log), and wanted it 
> >to accelerate towards something, how fast would it travel and how 
> >much damage would it do? 
> >       Mechanically, how would TK_ based on EGo, Invisible power 
> >effects (except for mental) effect a target?  Would it do BODY? 
> >What defense wouuld be applied against it?  Would STR be rolled to break 
> >out of this particular type of TK's grab? 
>  
> You seem to be going about this the wrong way: think of all the effects 
> Tiki can do (Flight, TK, EB vs PD, RKA [when Tiki picks up a nasty 
> pointy bit of metal], etc) and put them in a framework, either a 
> Multipower or Elemental Control. 
 
	Certainly, an elemental control would be the best way.  This would  
allow Tiki to both fly and carry things at the same time.  Other powers  
that could be considered would be force wall, missile de/reflection and  
explosive energy blast with double knockback and zero range. 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 20:24:20 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Dream Powers 
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Nez Master wrote: 
>  
> At 08:46 PM 11/30/97 -0500, you wrote: 
> >       How would you simulate a character who could 'dream walk' -- 
> >enter another character's mind through their dreams. 
> > 
> Telepathy, Mental Illusions, Mind Link, and Mind Scan can be combined to 
> create this effect depdning on how much control you want over the dreams. 
> Add "target must be asleep" as a -1 limitation. (at least). 
>  
> 8 d6 Mind Link (target must be asleep -1) (does not reveal location/only 
> for targetting -1/4) 17 
 
	What is an 8d6 mindlink?  I wasn't aware that could buy a number of  
dice of mindlink. 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 23:31:40 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Marvel Conversions:  Doctor Doom 
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Filksinger wrote: 
>On Thursday, November 20, 1997 11:52 AM, Sam Bell wrote: 
><snip> 
>>  25 Distinctive Features: Either mask or horribly scarred face.  Not 
>concealable, 
>> Extreme reaction 
><snip> 
>>His 10 Com is with the mask on.  Without the mask, it is considerably 
>lower. 
> 
> 
>I've seen Doom's face. His "horribly scarred face" has a single scar 
>two inches long on one cheek. He's just psychotic about it. 
> 
Didn't realize you and Vic were friends... 
But, regardless, I haven't seen his face, but current comic mags show close 
ups of his eyes continuously, and they have burn scars around them, 
reminiscent of Baron Zemo. 
 
- Jerry 
 
Who is 1 1/2 weeks behind on his e-mail... 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 23:40:37 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Reduced END Movement & NCM 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Donald Tsang wrote: 
>My understanding is, you never have to pay for Reduced END on things that 
>don't cost END, including NCM, Fine Manipulation for TK, etc. 
> 
Well, that *is* one interpretation...  I could go either way, really.  I 
dislike my DarkForce PC my friend has paying END for Fine Manipulation, so 
I have to write it in on the Heromaker sheet.  <shrugs> 
As far as 1/2 or 0 END on NCM...  I don't think it's come up for a PC in my 
game yet.  But what I said sounded reasonable...  of course, what *you* 
said sounded reasonable. 
 
So, you would put: 
Flight: 10", 0 END     30pt 
     +x2 NCM     +5pt 
 
Is that right?  (The numbers might be off, I lent out my BBB...) 
 
- Jerry 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 00:16:59 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re:  Re: Odd abilities. 
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In a message dated 12/2/97 4:21:59 PM, susano@access.digex.net wrote: 
>The ability to utterly and totally financially ruin someone within 
>> a period of days with one phone call. 
>Dunno, but I want that power too. 
 
We've done it. had a villain called the accountant. 
4d6 Wealth Drain. 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 00:21:38 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Champions Campaign Themes 
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At 06:40 AM 11/24/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>At 07:44 AM 11/25/97 -500, Vance Scott wrote: 
>>Campaign Themes 
>> 
<snippage> 
 
>   There are two additions that I can think of. 
> 
>Professionals - These are the classic "Heroes For Hire" type who do their 
>work for a price.  They work within the law, and might sometimes capture 
>criminals just to be good citizens, but they normally work as private 
>investigators, security guards, or in similar functions. 
> 
>Corporate Heroes - These are similar to the Professionals, except that they 
>work for a corporation and have the duty of protecting that corporation's 
>interests.  How often those interests coincide with the public welfare 
>depends, of course, on the corporation. 
> 
Well <lol> both of these are "Heroes for Hire."  The first is the original 
concept, and the second is as they are, currently, sorta.  They work for 
charity, sponsored by Oracle, Inc.  But these are both fine additions to 
the list. 
 
- Jerry 
 
Who is still 1 1/2 weeks behind on e-mail... 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 00:08:55 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
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	Oops, I forgot one of my favorite movie fights -- I'd probably put 
it in my top 5: 
 
	"Final" fight between Optimus Prime and Megatron in Transformers: 
The Movie.  Everything is on the line, and these two *really* go at it. 
The combat leading up to this fight is good as well -- transformers 
actually getting affected like they should from those high powered 
attacks. 
 
	These two also had some memorable combats in the series. 
 
	Heck, speaking of childhood cartoon combats -- I'll nominate one 
for worst of all time.  In GI Joe the Cartoon, Cobra had a pair of twins 
who felt when the other was hit.  (I don't remeber their names).  At one 
point, they fight each other by punching themselves.  Utterly inane. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 01:43:27 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Writing Up Yourself how good is good? 
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Michael Nunn wrote: 
>Getting back to the original scene.  We didn't have a lot of time to prepare 
>for each shot, only the first one.  After the first shot we had 1 minute to 
>empty a 30 round clip.  There was also a great deal of stress... Not combat 
>level stress, but stress none the less.  
> 
Very much so, actually.  How about knowing that you could wash out just for 
this reason, and "ruin" your future career...  pretty harrowing. 
 
>I can also tell you this, targets don't shoot back.  The enemy does, which 
>would you be tring harder to hit?   
> 
True, but you could (somehow) sacrifice your DCV in NonCombat situations 
for bonuses to hit...  i think you're already doing that w/ Brace or Set 
(can't remember which) already. 
 
- Jerry 
 
Who is 1 1/2 weeks behind on e-mail... 
 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 00:44:57 -0600 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
Subject: Re: All these damn bounce messages 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Bob Greenwade wrote: 
  They don't look to me like they're being bounced from Red October; 
 
> rather, from someone at Austin Imformation Association (ima.infomail.com). 
> My guess is that someone who subscribed to the list either lost his address 
> there, or dropped it without telling the list manager. 
 
On every one of the messages, the 'reply-to' field is set to 
'hero-l@october.com (multiple recipients of Hero)' 
 
This still looks like Red October to me. 
 
Todd 
 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 01:46:08 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7 
Reply-To: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Help? 
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>  
> A while back on the net a friend of mine assures me he found a rather long 
> article about "professional" wrestling for Champions. I have dug and dug 
> and have found almost nothing.  I am looking for one of the players who, 
> after watching 4 hours of WCW wrestling, had a brainstorm and wants to 
> play a pro wrestler type character...any help would be great. 
 
I keep threatening to write something up on this.  Maybe once my classes 
are over next week I finally will and post it on the WEB.   
 
The article is out there someplace, but I forget where.  My bookmark's 
went poof when my HD crashed a while ago. 
 
Basically, required PS:  Pro Wrestler (With appropriate KS's for different 
styles of pro wrestling, if you are of the school that such things are 
needed.  I can count about 7 styles that are distinct off the top of my 
head).   
 
Optional Skills would include 
Acting (For simulating being hurt, as well as interviews) 
Oratory (For working the crowd during an interview) 
Breakfall 
Acrobatics (For those high flyers) 
Concealment (For hiding those foreign, errr, international objects:) 
Slight of Hand (To use those objects without getting caught) 
I'm sure there more I'm forgetting off hand. 
 
For martial arts, standard manuvers would be: 
 
Basic Strike (Can simulate punches, stomps, headbutts, ect) 
Running Strike (Clothesline, Leg Lariot, Rolling Kick) 
Grab (Headlock, Armbar, Bearhug, ect) 
Crush (Suplexs, Power Bombs, Piledrivers) 
Choke Hold (Sleeper) 
Throw (Armdrag, Dragonscrew Legwhip, Droptoe Hold) 
 
Dodge and Block can be added, but they are rarely used.  Block can also be 
used to simulate the 'No Sell', but I've never liked this way. 
 
Other powers to add could be 
 
Flash v. Sight (Eye rake, maybe with a small NND for pain) 
Aid to a physical stat (Hulking Up) 
Additional PD with one phase charges (No Sell) 
Additional HTH damage (International objects, maybe with surprise if 
slight of hand roll beats opponant's perception) 
 
TokyoMark 
 
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 22:49:11 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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-- The first fight between the Spaniad and Weslie in the Princess Bride. 
 
   The fight starting with the Spaniad against the guards followed by the  
chase, again the Princess Bride. 
 
   Blind Fury. 
 
   Lady Hawk also comes to mind. 
 
   The first and third Highlander movies. (The second was a waste of time) 
 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
 
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 22:49:11 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
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-- The first fight between the Spaniad and Weslie in the Princess Bride. 
 
   The fight starting with the Spaniad against the guards followed by the  
chase, again the Princess Bride. 
 
   Blind Fury. 
 
   Lady Hawk also comes to mind. 
 
   The first and third Highlander movies. (The second was a waste of time) 
 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
 
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 23:00:22 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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The first fight between the Spaniad and Weslie in the Princess Bride. 
  
   The fight starting with the Spaniad against the guards followed by the 
chase, again the Princess Bride. 
  
   Blind Fury. 
  
   Lady Hawk also comes to mind. 
  
   The first and third Highlander movies. (The second was a waste of time) 
  
   Arnie vs the Predator. 
 
   And numerous more that are bouncing around in my head but can't put names  
to. 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 02:02:37 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re:  Bio-genetic powers 
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ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>>        How do you simulate the power/effect of acidic blood?  Think 
>>ALIEN. 
>	HKA with Damage Shield just dosen't do this justice.  Blood is drawn 
>when BODY is taken.  However, in the movie ALIENS the characters were a 
>couple of yards away at certain points and they were still caught in the  
>acidic gore's path.  Also, since the character I'm designing this for is 
>sentient, he can cut himself and 'bleed' though locks, doors, etc. 
>Also, this would act as a flaw, because any time the character would 'bleed' 
>(as per the optional rules), there would be acidic drips. 
 
Well, (slight spoiler), in the new Alien movie (Alienseses), they did just 
this, intentionally used the blood...  What you could do is think of all 
the ways that it could be used, and write a MultiPower, or (more likely) 
Elemental Control around it... including the Damage Shield, a Continuous 
BODY Drain v. Inanimates...  <shrugs> Other stuff you want to be able to do 
with it. 
> 
>	Hoe much of a Physical Limitation would Deconstruct be?  ...and if 
>you actually 'lost' a limb like this, could you assume it could be 'replaced' 
>(like a Foci)? 
> 
If he could get them back like Foci, it would be less limiting... 
 
>	...as for the 'calorie' power, I was thinking a Multipower pool 
>based off of an END reserve for the fat fuled heat powers.  The END reserve 
>could only be 'replenished' by gaining weight.  The problem is how to 
simulate 
>'weight gain' (which is most likely a Physical Limitation) that is 
temporary... 
>and how to gain the weight back.  (Yeah... How would you construct a 
Temporary 
>Phys Lim?  Side Effects = Physical Limitation, Distincitive Features, minuses 
>to running, and for the addition PD Only works while fat [or Linked to END 
>reserve]???? 
> 
Isn't there a hero in DC's Sovereign Seven comic that does this?  In the 
two issues I read (at the comic shop), he used a lot of energy, and gained 
it back *really* quick... a couple of large platters of burgers. 
And we had the Overweight/Fat/Morbidly Obese thread awhile back...  Phys 
Lim, or Density Increase, or Growth (two-dimensional, no height). 
Wouldn't a "temporary" Phys Lim just have a lower occurance?  <nods>  Yeah, 
that's it, I think. 
 
- Jerry 
 
Who is 1 1/2 weeks behind on e-mail 
 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 01:05:31 -0600 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
Subject: Re: Help? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Robert A. Coffin wrote: 
 
> A while back on the net a friend of mine assures me he found a rather long 
> article about "professional" wrestling for Champions. I have dug and dug 
> and have found almost nothing.  I am looking for one of the players who, 
> after watching 4 hours of WCW wrestling, had a brainstorm and wants to 
> play a pro wrestler type character...any help would be great. 
 
Your best bet is to not get overly complicated.  Have him take the basic 
moves, and he can call them whatever he likes.  He can even call the same move 
more than one thing - the name is basically special effect. Note that many of 
the wrestling moves SHOULD have the 'you fall' element as part of them.  I 
would let the player SFX that part - he 'falls' as part of the move, but hops 
right back up before someone can take advantage of his prone position. 
 
a few examples I've used: 
 
martial strike:       headbutt, punch or forearm 
martial throw:      armdrag, hurricarana (frankensteiner), any number of 
suplexes 
martial crush:       bearhug, sharpshooter, boston crab 
passing strike:      clothesline, drop kick 
nerve strike:         low shot, throat shot, eye gouge 
offensive strike:    superkick, dropkick, powerbomb 
leg sweep:            body slam (or any other maneuver that automatically 
takes the opponent off his feet) 
 
You can always let him build his OWN maneuvers, but I found it easier just to 
use the maneuvers in the book and rename them to fit. 
 
Todd 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 02:06:30 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Writing Up Yourself how good is good? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Rick Holding wrote: 
>	As far as throwing a baseball to a base (mentioned in another  
>post), the THROWER is aiming for a hex, the hex that the catcher is  
>standing in.  This makes it so much easier to catch a ball, particully as  
>the catcher standing behind the home plate knows fairly well where the  
>ball is suppost to be aimed at.  All he has to do is get the glove in the  
>line of flight.  The batter is set and braced and also knows to a lesser  
>extent where the ball is going to be passing through.  Not being  
>American, and hence not having much chance playing the game, it still  
>seems relatively easier to bunt, placing the bat in the line of flight  
>before the ball is thrown and adjusting up and down.  This doesn't seem  
>to require to high of an OCV to do.  A few more skill levels to get a  
>swing bat at the same place as the ball. (Hmmm, that went a bit longer  
>than expected.  Sorry) 
> 
If you make it easier on the pitcher, saying he's aiming at the hex, it is 
then harder on the catcher, because he *won't* know where the ball is 
going.  And it is obvious that the pitcher has a *much* tighter control 
than that... if he just aims at (actually through) the hex, he'll get a 
"ball" more often than a "strike." 
And if a batter lines up for a bunt *before* the pitch, the pitcher's gonna 
throw a "ball," right?  (Maybe this is beyond your experience... hey, it 
may be beyond mine!) 
The one suggestion of Missle Reflection might be okay, actually... 
requiring an OIF of opportunity for the batter... 
 
- Jerry 
 
Who is 1 1/2 weeks behind on e-mail... 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 02:15:51 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: CHAR: KALUU 
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Subject:	HERO: KALUU 
From:		egyptoid@aol.com (Egyptoid) 
Date:		30 Nov 1997 
07:38:47 GMT 
 
KALUU          (compadre of DR STRANGE, Marvel Comix) 
 
       
STR    17      DF: Wizard Garb & Spiky Hair (concealable) 
                    
DEX    18      Public ID (super public among cognoscenti) 
                      
     
CON    16      DF: Tibetan Oriental 
                           
BODY   11      Psych: Cold, Pragmatic ("Kinda 
Evil")                            
INT    18      Psych: Enjoys comforts & 
wealth                            
EGO    28      Psych: Domineering 
                           
PRE    22      Hunted: various neutral & good 
beings, from various dimensions   
                         
COM     9 
                                 
PD      9 
                                 
ED      9 
                                 
SPD     4 
                                 
REC    13 
                                 
END    50 
                                 
STUN   50 
                                 
 
Images:           (mirror images) 
   Sight, 
Sound, Smell, Touch, Mental, -8 to PER rolls, Skill Roll req. 
   x5 to 
Radius, Zero End, Only Images of Self (up to 8 at a time). 
 
Shape-Shift: 
 
   Any living Shape, Zero End. 
     Power Effects Invisible to Magical 
Senses. 
+Density Increase, Shrinking, Growth: Up to 1 Level of Each, 
    Only 
for use (linked) (if needed by shape-shift above), Zero End. 
    Power 
Effects Invisible to Magical Senses. 
 
Force-Field: Zero End. 
13/13 
Force-Wall: 18/18, Half-End 
Immortality: 
(Regeneration-Type) 
Life-Support: No Aging 
Eidetic Memory: 
photographic 
 
Spells Multi-Power: 
  a)  Energy Blast, 14d6 
  b)  Energy 
Blast, Area Effect Hex  12d6 
  c)  Telepathy, Penetrating, 13d6 
  d) 
 Entangle BOECV, 8d6 
  e)  Killing Attack, Explosion, Double Knockback, 4d6 
 
 f)  Teleport, Area Effect, Transdimensional, Triggered,  
           20", 
x1024 NCV, UAO, UBO 
  g)  Mind-Link, Transdimensional, Any Distance, x8 
minds 
  h)  Aid, To Magical Powers, BOECV, Linked to Mind-Link, 8d6 
  i) 
 Change Environment, Variable 
  j)  Teleport, Only in Rain/Storm: Side 
Effect: CE dissipates said rain/storm 
      20", x15625 NCV 
  k)  Summon 
Undead or Spirits 
  l)  Other Adjustment Powers as GM sees fits 
(Var.SFX) 
 
Var.Pow.Pool:  Magic Knowledge 
    40 points, Spell Books, Skill 
Roll, Variable SFX, GEstures, Incantations 
 
Languages: Tibetan, Chinese, 
Egyptian, English, Latin 
AK: World  12- 
AK: Asia 14- 
AK: Tibet 16- 
AK: the 
Dimensions  17- 
KS: Magic: Chaos, Darkhold, Nature, Necromantic, Black, 
Vishanti, Others 
             22-     13-      14-        15-       19- 
    12-      15- 
PS: Financier 
SC: Philosophy 
Skills: Tactics, 
Administration, Cramming, Agriculture, Business,  
        Riding, Deduction, 
Persuasion 
Well-Connected: (mostly arcane) 
Contacts: Dr.Strange, Clea, the 
Ancient One, Lords of Chaos, vampires, demons, 
          his Wall Street 
Broker, Lords of Sorcery, various Mystics & Wizards 
Wealth: 10 
 
Martial Arts: 
Jiu Jutsu  
      Block  +2 OCV  +2 DCV  Abort 
      Disarm  -1 OCV  +1 DCV 30 
STR Disarm 
      Dodge  +0  OCV  +5 DCV  Abort 
      Legsweep  +2 OCV  -1 DCV 
 5d6 Strike, Target Falls 
      Punch/Snap Kick  +0 OCV  +2 DCV  6d6 Strike 
 
     Side/Spin Kick  -2 OCV  +1 DCV  8d6 Strike 
===== 
my conversion of Kaluu, 
from OHOTMU volume 7 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 02:15:58 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: EARTH FORCE -  WIND WALKER 
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X-UID: 90 
 
WIND-WALKER                                                    (Earth Force 
1) 
 
  14  STR   10   x1     DF: Beautiful Blonde (concealable) 
  22  DEX   10   x3     DF: Glowing Mark of Aton, Left Palm (concealable) 
19/10 CON   10   x2     Hunted: Seth 
  11  BODY  10   x2     Watched: Egyptian Gods 
  10  INT   10   x1     Watched: Asgardian Gods 
  20  EGO   10   x2     Psych: Emotional 
  13  PRE   10   x1     Psych: Overconfident 
  18  COM   10  x.5     Psych: Protective of Normals 
   9  PD    S5   x1     Psych: Tends not to use powers full force unless 
pushed 
   9  ED    C5   x1     Secret ID: Pamela Shaw  
  6/3 SPD  1D10 x10             
  13  REC  S5C5  x2               
  58  END  Cx2  x.5            
  39  STUN BS2C2 x1              
 
DemiGoddess of the Air Multi-Power: (100) 
 m)  Change Environ: x16 Radius, Variable Env., Air Effects Only, x5 Max 
Range 
 m)  Energy Blast, Wind Based: 11 Dice, x2 Knock-back 
 m)  HKA, Area Effect Radius, x2 Knock-back, 2+1d6   (Tornado) 
 m)  Energy Blast, versus PD, 13d6, variable SFX, OIF    (Hurl Object w/Air) 
 m)  Flight, 35" x4 NCV 
 m)  TK, air based, 60 STR  
 m)  Force Wall,  22 PD, 10 ED, 16" wide, Opaque to Hearing & Sound 
 m)  Force Field, 35 PD, 15 ED 
 (All except Change Env. Only In Hero ID) 
 
Endurance Reserve: 250 End, 5 Rec, Only for Multi-Power 
CON: 19, In Hero ID Only 
SPD:  3, In Hero ID Only 
Instant Change, regular clothes to Hero ID only 
Luck: 2 dice 
Armor, 3PD, 3ED, Hero ID Only 
 
PS: Home-maker & Mother 
AK: New York 
Contacts: Egyptian Gods, Thor, Avengers, rest of Earth Force 
Favors: Bes, Aton, Thor 
Skill Levels  Flight: 6 
Skill Levels  Multi-Power Attacks: 3 
Everyperson Skills, AK's, & familiarities 
 
============================================================================= 
 
Not much background here, she lived normally in New York, and Seth gave 
her powers in attempting to use her as a pawn versus Thor & his friends. 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 02:16:03 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: CHAR: SPHINX 
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SPHINX                                       (Marvel Write-Up from OHOTMU 6) 
                  
Normal Size             Grown Size        Disadvantages: 
  43  STR   10   x1       68  STR           Psych: Conqueror 
  18  DEX   10   x3       18  DEX           Age: More of a Mental Disad 
  41  CON   10   x2       45  CON           DF: Large Glowing Egyptoid 
  16  BODY  10   x2       19  BODY          Dep: Loses immortality w/out 
Stone 
  28  INT   10   x1       28  INT           Hunteds: various 
  39  EGO   10   x2       39  EGO           Phys.Lim: Usually Huge 
  24  PRE   10   x1       49  PRE           Secret ID: True Name Hidden 
  11  COM   10  x.5        8  COM            
  16  PD    S5   x1       19  PD          
  16  ED    C5   x1       19  ED          
   4  SPD  1D10 x10        4  SPD         
  21  REC  S5C5  x2       29  REC         
  90  END  Cx2  x.5       99  END         
  76  STUN BS2C2 x1       79  STUN        
 
Ka Magic Multi-Power: 
 m) 10d6 Energy Blast (Light) 
 m) 12d6 Energy Blast (Heat) 
 m) 35 STR Telekinesis (Force-Beam) 
 m) 12d6 Telepathy 
 m) Flight, 24", x4 NCV 
 
Ka Energy Multi-Power: 
 m) Shrinking: 15, Half-End, returns self to normal human size. 
 m) Absorption: 6d6 from Energy Attacks 
 m) Transfer: 4d6 from beings or objects 
   (these 2 adjustments powers have a 1-minute fade rate, and +44 to maximum, 
    and they put points into END, INT, EGO, and the Ka MP above) 
 
Ka Growth, 15, Always On, Zero End, Persistent.  
  ( stats figured in above right) 
Ka Aid: 3d6 to some stats, only when Grown, Always On, Zero End, Persistent.  
  (figured in above right) 
 
Life Support: Breathe, Eat, Rad, Vacuum, Pressure, Disease, Aging 
Immortality: Summon Self Type, Trigger, 1x per 5 years 
Armor: 13PD/13ED 
Wizard Powers: 23 pnt VPP, minor tricks (Eg: Hypnotism, Sticks to Snakes) 
 
Base: Flying Pyramid: call it a 150 point vehicle 
Wealth: 10 
 
Skills: Scientist, Scholar, Linguist, Jack-o-Trades, Traveler (5000 years 
old!) 
KS:Chemistry, KS:Physics, KS:Alchemy, KS:Electronics, KS:Mechanics,  
KS: Ancient History, KS: Bible, KS: Egyptian Religion, AK: Middle East 
KS: Computers, KS: Alien Tech, KS: Magic(Hekau), KS: Occult, KS: Medicine 
KS: Surgery, KS Biology, KS: Zoology, PS: Inventor, KS: Genetics, 
PS: Doctor, PS: Wizard,  PS: Archaeologist, PS: Programmer, PS: Engineer 
Lang: Egyptian, Lang: Arabic, Lang: English, Lang: French, Lang: Latin 
Contact: Sayge, aka the prophet Veritas 
 
All powers labeled "Ka" above derive from his mystic forehead gem,  
  which conceivably conceivably can be ripped away non-combat. (IIF) 
 
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% 
 
Sphinx comes across as a pretty screwed up mental case. He's 5000+ years 
old, and he spent 1000 of those years as a wizard in Egypt, 1000 more 
seeking a way to commit suicide, 1000 more seeking someone who might 
know how to kill him, then he tinkered in various skills for 1000 years, 
then he sought a way to get rid of the stone, lately he was looking 
for more power. Go figure. He's fought Nova, Galactus, Fantastic Four. 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 02:16:15 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: HERO: DREAMQUEEN 
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poetry  in  motion 
--------------------- 
Forwarded message: 
From:	elliott@tmscorp.com (Elliott Davis) 
Sender:	elliott@tmscorp.com 
Reply-to:	elliott@tmscorp.com 
To:	mail2news@basement.replay.com (Usenet 0 zNews) 
Date: 97-12-02 15:46:36 EST 
 
DREAMQUEEN 
 
STR   38        DISADS: 
DEX   21        # DF: Demonic Vamp, Green Hair, White Skin (concealable) 
CON   55        # DF: scans as a demonic succubus to magic 
INT   23        #    or psionics (not concealable, small group) 
EGO   40        # Accidental Change: After becoming pregnant, she 
spontaneously 
PRE   20(+)     #   combusts  and a new DQ arises from the ashes with her 
COM   15        #   memories but new body & personality. (rare) 
BODY  26        # Psych: Cruel & Bored, enjoys lies & trickery 
PD    29 
ED    29        +3 Levels with Magic Powers 
SPD    6        +1 Level with HtH Combat 
REC   34 
END  145 
STUN  95 
 
Presence is +25 in Live World, +15 at night 
Clairvoyance: OIF reflective or crystal surface, Sight, Sound, Past, Mental, 
  Transdimensional, Other Dimensions, x3165 range. 
Life support: Immortal 
Life Support: Eat, Sleep, Only if able to feed off emotional energy 
Invisibility: All Sense Groups, No Fringe, Use Ego > 20  & Mental Defense as 
  a bonus to PER rolls to see her. 
 
Variable Power Pool: 40 points, Demonic Magic or Psionics, Gestures &  
  Incantations, Limited Powers, Transdimensional 
 
Aid: to END, STUN & Multipower: 8 Dice, also affects the maximum gain from 
Aid, 
 but only when people without mental defense are within a mile of her. Power  
 only works in the Presence of strong emotions, such as people having 
nightmares 
 Transdimensional, Semi-Conscious Control, self-only. See chart below. 
 # People  Dice Available  Aid Maximum 
   1-16        1             30    These numbers represent the maximums       
   17-32       2             45    It takes a while to build these up. 
   33-64       3             75      but at least it has limits. 
   65-124      4            120    The transdimensional allows her to use 
people 
   125-250     5            180      on earth for "fuel" even when she's in   
   250-499     6            255      her home dimension.                      
   500-999     7            375          
   1000+       8            500    Fade: per 5 Hours 
                                       
Nightmare Control Multi-Power: 
 Mental Illusions: 10 Dice, Transdimensional, only 10% Effective vs Awake. 
 Major Transform: 7 Dice, any raw material into artifacts & devices, inside 
      home dimension only.  250 kilos of matter per day limit. 
 Major Transform: 7 Dice, any raw material into lifeforms, home dimension 
only. 
      250 kilos of matter per day limit. 
 Major Transform: 7 Dice, anything non-living into anything, inside home 
      dimension only, cannot affect beings not from her dimension, 
cumulative. 
 Minor Transform: 10 Dice, any raw material into any other raw material, 
      matter from her home dimension only, zero endurance 
 
Skills: Psychology, AK: Liveworld, AK: America, KS: Superhero Groups 
   KS: Nightmares, KS: Magic, KS: Demons, PS: Succubus 
   Stealth, Breakfall, Mimicry, Tracking 
Find Weakness with Mental Powers 
 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 
 
DQ rules a dimension called Liveworld. She is not the only intelligent thing 
in the dimension, but she is the only being of ny power or consequence there. 
She can travel to earth, but her power structure makes her prefer to stay at 
home mostly. But what she does is stand near the "border" of the two planes 
and draw emotional energy. She'll stand in a neighborhood in the suburbs,  
use the ambient energy to build herself up, then t-port to where some wizard 
or super-hero resides and make his night a living hell. 
 
============================================================================== 
= 
This is my read of Dreamqueen, the perennial foe of Alpha Flight, from OHOTMU 
5 
Elliott aka Egyptoid 
============================================================================== 
= 
 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 02:16:17 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re:  Fights! 
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In a message dated 12/2/97 12:09:42 PM, susano@access.digex.net wrote: 
>Mega Damage: Cell points his fist and vaporizes a city.  Hulk tosses Power 
>Man through some skyscrapers.  Spidey gets the Capt Universe power and 
>punches Hulk into orbit.   
 
When I GM, there's a couple of ways to do these teffects: 
   a natural 3 on your attack roll accomplishes a lot more than what 
   your "active points" would normally make happen. 
  
  also Luck makes goofy & outlandish things happen. 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 02:16:19 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: EARTH FORCE - EARTH LORD 
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X-UID: 88 
 
EARTH-LORD                                                     (Earth Force 
3) 
 
53/20 STR   10   x1     Reputation: Good Cop (not in Hero Id) 
  11  DEX   10   x3     DF: Glowing Mark of Aton, Left Palm (concealable) 
38/10 CON   10   x2     Hunted: Seth 
  16  BODY  10   x2     Watched: Egyptian Gods 
  10  INT   10   x1     Watched: Asgardian Gods 
  12  EGO   10   x2     Psych: Honest 
  17  PRE   10   x1     Psych: Helpful 
  14  COM   10  x.5     Psych: Clever, Not easily duped 
  15  PD    S5   x1     DNPC: wife Marge, 2 kids 
  15  ED    C5   x1     Secret ID: Tyle Brock, Policeman 
   4  SPD  1D10 x10             
  20  REC  S5C5  x2               
 100  END  Cx2  x.5            
  70  STUN BS2C2 x1              
 
DemiGod of Rock & Stone Multi-Power: (100) 
 m)  HKA, 3d6, Armor-Piercing, Half-End 
 m)  HtH Atk, 13d6, Armor-Piercing, Half-End 
 m)  Armor, 20 PD, 20 ED 
 m)  Super-Leap, 6 hexes 
 (All slots Only In Hero ID) 
Growth: up to 8 levels, In Hero ID Only, Zero-End 
Density Increase: up to 2 levels, In Hero ID Only, Zero-End 
 
STR: 33, In Hero ID Only 
CON: 28, In Hero ID Only 
Instant Change, regular clothes to Hero ID only 
 
PS: Policeman 
AK: New York 
Contacts: Egyptian Gods, Thor, Avengers, rest of Earth Force 
Contacts: Police Superiors, Informants 
Favors: Bes, Aton, Thor 
Skill Levels  Multi-Power Attacks: 6 
Everyperson Skills, AK's, & familiarities 
Martial Arts: Police Combat Training, Night-Stick 
Martial Arts: Def.Srike, Block, Basic Strike, Take-Down 
Weapon Fam: Night Sticks, Pistols, Riot Gear 
Combat Skills: +1 w/Ranged Weapons 
 
============================================================================= 
 
Not much background here, he was a regular cop in New York, and Seth gave 
him powers in attempting to use him as a pawn versus Thor & his friends. 
He tended to argue with Sky-Hawk about team goals & methods. 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 02:16:49 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re:  Re: Characteristics 
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In a message dated 12/2/97 2:04:06 PM, bob.greenwade@klock.com wrote: 
> Only if PRE Defense (PRE, Defensive Only) is in play does this make any 
>sense at all, and since a PRE Attack gives an "effect" as opposed to 
>"damage" it wouldn't make any difference in play. 
 
We do junk like this all the time. 
 
Enforcer has Armor Piercing PRE. You resist his PRE attacks 
with half your PRE. The few with PRE(defensive only) ignore that 
and defend with full PRE. 
 
I'd allow Penetrating PRE. If you got at least 10 "body" on your PRE 
dice roll, you'd get at least a PRE+10 result off the chart. That's how 
we ran Mind Control: Penetrating.  
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 02:17:25 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re:  Re: Density Decrease (formerly Non shrinking shrinking) 
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the dd power i made up was valid, but only for certain SFX. 
i wrote what i wrote based on what i understood the desired 
effect to be. many of the other suggestions from others 
are even more valid.    ymmv.    season to taste. 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 02:17:26 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: CHAR: Set 
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SET                                      Giant Egyptoid Snake Demon from 
OHOTMU 7 
  74  STR  10    x1   
  32  DEX  10    x3     DF: Huge 7-headed Serpentine Demonic God 
  99  CON  10    x2     Phys.Lim: Trapped in pocket sub-dimension of hell 
  48  BODY 10    x2     Dep: Must drain life energy of victim 1xday 
  73  INT  10    x1     Psych: Devious 
  99  EGO  10    x2     Psych: Evil 
  55  PRE  10    x1     Rep: Mythological 
 -15  COM  10   x.5     DNPC's: several demonic reptilian sons 
  35  PD   S5    x1     Hunted: Egyptian Gods 
  35  ED   C5    x1     Phys.Lim: Portion of essence trapped in vessel on 
earth 
  10  SPD  1D10 x10     Psych: Bitter over death of all dinosaurs        
  45  REC  S5C5  x2     Watched: Gaea         
 275  END  Cx2  x.5     Phys.Lim: no fine manipulation (except via TK) 
        
 250  STUN BS2C2 x1             
 
Offensive Magic VPP:    55 Point Pool  (RKA, Transforms, Illusions, etc) 
Defensive Magic VPP:    65 Point Pool   (Armor, Invisibility, etc) 
Mental Powers Magic VPP:    75 Point Pool (Mind Control, Mind Scan, BOECV...) 
10d6 Aid to Mental Pool: Mental Powers become Transdimensional, Armor 
Piercing, 
    and Area Effect Radius, only as regards Serpent Crown 
15d6 Aid, to any power, skill, or characteristic, Transdimensional, only 
   to wearer of Serpent Crown 
Growth, 45 points, (stats not figured in since he changes a lot) 
Life Support: Heat, Cold, Vacuum, Aging, Sleep(1 head at a time),  
  breathe water, breathe fire, breathe acrid fumes of hell, pressure, 
disease. 
Regeneration: Persistent, 1 Body/Turn, Difficult to Dispel, 
              Always On, (Well Nigh Immortal) 
 
Extra Limbs: seven mouths, tail. 
Ultra-Vision, Infra-Vision, Spatial Awareness 
Enhanced PER +7 with Smell 
Targeting Scent: Tongues 
Combat Sense: 23- 
Find Weakness: 19- with venom blast 
Immunity: to any & all poisons 
 
KS: History, KS: Ancient History, AK: World, PS: Sorceror, KS: Magic,  
KS: Demonology, KS: Cosmology, Seduction, KS: Veterinary, Animal Handler 
Tactics, Persuasion, SC:Genetics, Deduction, Tracking 
 
============================================================================== 
 
 
What can you say about Set? He's a god of evil, god of reptiles.  
Huge, monstrous, unearthly, amazing. And that's just his stats.  :) 
Fought Thor, FF, Avengers, Whole world, really. He's strongly tied to and 
cautious of the Serpent Crown, as it's a free link to earth for him. 
Otherwise he's trapped extra-dimensionally and really can't interact except 
very indirectly with earthlings. Also, he's not very subtle with his power 
pools. Nothing fancy, just stuff like Venom Blasts, Domination, Autofire RKA 
Biting, massive amounts of killing. Thankfully he's ethereal most of the 
time. 
-- 
Elliott 
 
From: Egyptoid@aol.com 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 02:18:10 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re:  Waste of bandwith Question #1 
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Five favorite Fight Scenes:     ( itried to cross media) 
 
Movie: 
Quaid versus Draco in Dragonheart 
      (Honorable mention: 2-head dragon in Willow) 
 
Fun Movie: 
BTILC no no no,  it pains me to lower myself to it. Martial arts movies, 
especially JC's, tsk tsk. I don't know. No i retract that. Scrath btilc. 
for my favorite fight scene from a movie I'm going to buck the tide so far: 
                   Sally Field versus Shirley Maclaine in Steel Magnolias. 
 
Fun Comic: 
Fightman versus everbody in "Everyone Hates Fightman"  ;) 
                           "cuz one-shot is all I need" 
 
Marvel: 
X-Men versus the guardians of the M-krann crystal. 
    "I am Jahf, second guardian..." 
         :0  :0  :0  I about died, and I was only _reading_ the damn book! 
         (honorable mention: x-men vs. imperial guard, 1st meeting) 
 
DC: 
Superman versus Batman (w/Battlesuit) in Dark Knight 
 
======= 
 
Whatta great thread. thanks to whoever started it. 
-- 
Elliott 
 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 02:19:22 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re:  Re: CHAR: Shaggy 
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At 05:21 PM 11/28/97 -0500, Egyptoid@aol.com wrote: 
>In a message dated 11/28/97 4:49:47 AM, bob.greenwade@klock.com wrote: 
>>   Oh, darn.  When I saw the Subject header, I was hoping this would be the 
>>start of write-ups of Scooby-Doo and the gang. 
>>--- 
>>Bob 
> 
>Don't laugh. there's a page out on the www where 
>someone wrote up the Mystery Machine gang as Hunters 
>for white wolf's vampire game. I could easily convert it to Hero 
>for you if you like  :)  Velma, Fred, Diana, Scrappy, Shaggy, Scooby 
> 
Well, actually, you *should* laugh, as that conversion to WW *was* supposed 
to be humorous... and it was pretty good, too.  And (THANKFULLY!) didn't 
contain that little bugger, Scrappy. 
 
- Jerry 
 
Who is 1 1/2 weeks behind on e-mail... 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 02:27:48 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re:  Re: CHAR: Shaggy 
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X-UID: 92 
 
I wrote: 
>At 05:21 PM 11/28/97 -0500, Egyptoid@aol.com wrote: 
>>In a message dated 11/28/97 4:49:47 AM, bob.greenwade@klock.com wrote: 
>>>   Oh, darn.  When I saw the Subject header, I was hoping this would be the 
>>>start of write-ups of Scooby-Doo and the gang. 
>>>--- 
>>>Bob 
>> 
>>Don't laugh. there's a page out on the www where 
>>someone wrote up the Mystery Machine gang as Hunters 
>>for white wolf's vampire game. I could easily convert it to Hero 
>>for you if you like  :)  Velma, Fred, Diana, Scrappy, Shaggy, Scooby 
>> 
>Well, actually, you *should* laugh, as that conversion to WW *was* supposed 
>to be humorous... and it was pretty good, too.  And (THANKFULLY!) didn't 
>contain that little bugger, Scrappy. 
Oh, geez, I just had a terrible thought... I seem to vaguely remember that 
they *did* have Scrappy... I think I just repressed it.  Damn. 
 
- Jerry 
 
Who is 1 1/2 weeks behind on e-mail... 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 02:27:58 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7 
Reply-To: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Help? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
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>  
> Your best bet is to not get overly complicated.  Have him take the basic 
> moves, and he can call them whatever he likes.  He can even call the same move 
> more than one thing - the name is basically special effect. Note that many of 
> the wrestling moves SHOULD have the 'you fall' element as part of them.  I 
> would let the player SFX that part - he 'falls' as part of the move, but hops 
> right back up before someone can take advantage of his prone position. 
 
This is an excellent point.  A basic strike could just as easily be an 
elbow drop, since the wrestler gets right up before his opponant can. 
 
This also reminds me.  In my previous post on this, target falls should be 
added to the crush, or crush should be replaced with grappling throw.  I 
prefer adding the target falls since these moves are supposed to be 
devestating. 
 
I rarely use moves that add to DCV with wrestling characters since they 
rarely seem to be all that tough to hit:) 
 
TokyoMark 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 02:33:46 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re:  Re: CHAR: Shaggy 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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> >Don't laugh. there's a page out on the www where 
> >someone wrote up the Mystery Machine gang as Hunters 
> >for white wolf's vampire game. I could easily convert it to Hero 
> >for you if you like  :)  Velma, Fred, Diana, Scrappy, Shaggy, Scooby 
> > 
> Well, actually, you *should* laugh, as that conversion to WW *was* supposed 
> to be humorous... and it was pretty good, too.  And (THANKFULLY!) didn't 
> contain that little bugger, Scrappy. 
 
One of the Garou books (I think) contains Shaggy 20 years after the 
Mystery Machine days, though under a different name to avoid copyright, I 
suppose.  I found the write up to be amusing, but I never could stand the 
show and Shaggy ends up a burned out Pentex agent;). 
 
TokyoMark 
 
From: "JERRY MILLER" <jermil@pacbell.net> 
Subject: unsubscribe !!! NOW !!! 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 00:17:43 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 95 
 
<x-html><html><head></head><BODY bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><p><font size=2 color="#000000" face="Arial">this mess is just to much to bear, I WANT MY NAME/ADDRESS OFF THE MAILING LIST NOW !!!<br><br>UNSUBSCRIBE &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;UNSUBSCRIBE &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;UNSUBSCRIBE &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;UNSUBSCRIBE</p> 
</font></body></html></x-html>Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 03:58:45 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 97 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> >>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes: 
>  
> MS> I'd heard that Rathbone had to really down play his skill in orde to make 
> MS> Flynn look good on camera. 
>  
> At least partially. 
>  
> [...] 
>  
> MS> So, Danny Kaye knew how to use a sword, or was he just that 'out of 
> MS> control'? 
>  
> Kaye was out of control.  That is what makes that scene so tense to a fan 
> of fight choreography. 
 
   Oh, no, no, no.  Danny Kaye was very talented with his stage combat.  
He knew exactly what he was doing.  It was, in fact, his prowess that 
allowed him to *look* like he was clueless and out of control. 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: VPP Question 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:51:34 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
>    In the VPP description, it says that a character with this power 
> framework can set aside a pool of points that can be used to create any 
> power with a given special effect.  
>    Later, in the limitations, a example he gives is: -1/2 Limited Special 
> Effects. 
>  
>    My question is: is by default the powers in VPP have to be of a 
> specific special effects and that limitation is applicable only if this 
> special effect is somehow limited (if this is the case, example please... 
> I am not sure I understood how would be this case) or is the limitation  
> applicable if the powers have common special effects (So the powers 
> doesn't need to be of the same special effect by default then?) ? 
>  
	No, it does not have to be of a particular special effect according 
to the rules. But don't expect any sane GM to allow a character without one. 
 
	On the other hand, what's that lim there for? 
 
Is 'Gadget Powers' worth it? or 'Magic'? 
I would say no. 
However 'Cybernetic Implants' or 'Voodoo Sorcery' would get it in my book. 
 
The Diff? 
 
The level of detail. The first two are very broad catagories that will give 
almost anything. The second two are very detailed and possibly very 
restrictive. They are therefore a 'limited special effect' as I call it. 
 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Baseball in Hero (was Re: Writing Up Yourself how good is good?) 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:04:03 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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I agree that the pitcher isn't just aiming at a hex. But he's not aiming 
for the glove, either. He's aiming for the strike zone, which is about 
1/4 man-sized, so I'd give it a 3 (hex) + 4 (shrinking) = 7 DCV. 
 
On a related topic, has anyone ever had characters play a sport using 
the Hero rules? Once, our superhero team put on a soccer game among 
ourselves for a charity event. My speedster against the rest of the 
team. The hardest opposition was from the team illusionist... 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 06:32:24 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re:  Re: Characteristics 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 02:16 AM 12/3/97 -0500, Egyptoid@aol.com wrote: 
>In a message dated 12/2/97 2:04:06 PM, bob.greenwade@klock.com wrote: 
>> Only if PRE Defense (PRE, Defensive Only) is in play does this make any 
>>sense at all, and since a PRE Attack gives an "effect" as opposed to 
>>"damage" it wouldn't make any difference in play. 
> 
>We do junk like this all the time. 
> 
>Enforcer has Armor Piercing PRE. You resist his PRE attacks 
>with half your PRE. The few with PRE(defensive only) ignore that 
>and defend with full PRE. 
 
   This has been hacked over before, and the best point that was made was 
the difference between the affected characteristic of an attack, and its 
defense. 
   Take a Killing Attack.  It is defended against by either resistant PD or 
resistant ED, and affects the target's BODY (and his STUN as a secondary 
effect).  The Armor Piercing doesn't cut the target's BODY in half for 
purposes of the effect (that would make such an attack impossibly powerful 
in a heroic level game, and worth almost nothing in a superheroic level 
one).  It cuts the resistant PD/ED in half, unless that defense is Hardened. 
   I frankly don't know how you came up with the mechanic you did. 
 
>I'd allow Penetrating PRE. If you got at least 10 "body" on your PRE 
>dice roll, you'd get at least a PRE+10 result off the chart. That's how 
>we ran Mind Control: Penetrating.  
 
   Again, this is nothing like what Penetrating does in the book.  If it's 
how you want to run effect-based Powers as a house rule, then that's 
different, but by the printed rules Penetrating Mind Control simply has a 
minimum total effect equal to the amount of BODY rolled on it (and is 
therefore only useful if it as the Cumulative Advantage also on it). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 06:40:45 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Help? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 09:49 PM 12/2/97 -0600, Robert A. Coffin wrote: 
> 
>A while back on the net a friend of mine assures me he found a rather long 
>article about "professional" wrestling for Champions. I have dug and dug 
>and have found almost nothing.  I am looking for one of the players who, 
>after watching 4 hours of WCW wrestling, had a brainstorm and wants to 
>play a pro wrestler type character...any help would be great. 
 
   If all else fails, just use the Professional Wrestling package from The 
Ultimate Martial Artist (page 72).  I've also seen the article you're 
looking for, and it's quite good, but the write-up in TUMA should be 
sufficient. 
   Maybe you could try doing a net search (I recommend 
http://www.hotbot.com for this one) on the phrase "Ultimate Professional 
Wrestler"; that, as I recall, was the title of the article. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 06:43:00 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re:  Re: Odd abilities. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 12:16 AM 12/3/97 -0500, Egyptoid@aol.com wrote: 
>In a message dated 12/2/97 4:21:59 PM, susano@access.digex.net wrote: 
>>The ability to utterly and totally financially ruin someone within 
>>> a period of days with one phone call. 
>>Dunno, but I want that power too. 
> 
>We've done it. had a villain called the accountant. 
>4d6 Wealth Drain. 
 
   For the stated ability, I'd give it the Gradual Effect Limitation. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:08:16 -0200 (EDT) 
From: Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria <gevaerd@laranjeiras.lci.ufrj.br> 
Subject: VPP Question 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 101 
 
   In the VPP description, it says that a character with this power 
framework can set aside a pool of points that can be used to create any 
power with a given special effect.  
   Later, in the limitations, a example he gives is: -1/2 Limited Special 
Effects. 
 
   My question is: is by default the powers in VPP have to be of a 
specific special effects and that limitation is applicable only if this 
special effect is somehow limited (if this is the case, example please... 
I am not sure I understood how would be this case) or is the limitation  
applicable if the powers have common special effects (So the powers 
doesn't need to be of the same special effect by default then?) ? 
 
 
                     []s. 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:43:55 -0500 (EST) 
From: "D. Michael Basinger" <dbasinge@arches.uga.edu> 
X-Sender: dbasinge@archa8.cc.uga.edu 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Baseball in Hero (was Re: Writing Up Yourself how good is good?) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 107 
 
On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
 
> I agree that the pitcher isn't just aiming at a hex. But he's not aiming 
> for the glove, either. He's aiming for the strike zone, which is about 
> 1/4 man-sized, so I'd give it a 3 (hex) + 4 (shrinking) = 7 DCV. 
 
Don't forget skill levels 
+1 Pitching Little League 
+2 Pitching High School 
+3 Pitching College  
+4 Pitching Minors 
+5 Pitching Major League 
 
Plus athletes proabaly have a slightly higher dex, DEX 13+ 
 
> On a related topic, has anyone ever had characters play a sport using 
> the Hero rules? Once, our superhero team put on a soccer game among 
> ourselves for a charity event. My speedster against the rest of the 
> team. The hardest opposition was from the team illusionist... 
 
I have heard of Football rules for Champions. Also, don't forget the old 
supplement Autodueling Champions. 
 
Mike 
-- 
D. Michael Basinger 
dbasinge@arches.uga.edu 
http://www.arches.uga.edu/~dbasinge 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: Bounced message 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:59:35 -0500 (EST) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 108 
 
> erm, i've got about 200 of these so far today. . .. anyone else with  
> simmilar problems this week? 
>  
 
Yeah, I got over 300.  Excuse me for a second.... 
 
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
 
erm... okay, I'm better now. 
 
-Eric 
 
X-Forwarding-Note: Was sent to herolist@october.com; forwarding to hero-l@omg.org 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 08:24:51 -0800 
X-To: Multiple recipients of Hero <hero-l@october.com> 
Subject: Re: Bounced message 
X-Listname: Hero 
Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
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Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
erm, i've got about 200 of these so far today. . .. anyone else with simmilar problems  
this week? 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
NetMgr+ wrote: 
>  
> Please note that the system that this message was addressed to no 
> longer exists, or is not a Member of the IMA Gateway system,  and 
> that the below message is undeliverable. So it is being deleted. 
>  
> It would be a good idea to confirm that you are using the correct address. 
>  
> If this is a valid system, but not a valid Member of the IMA, they can 
> contact me at the address below about joining our gateway. 
>  
> Also, if this is a mailing list, please remove the intended recipient 
> from all of your configs and listings. The address of the intended 
> recipient is listed right after the "Apparently-to:" line towards the 
> top of the text below. 
>  
> Note: If the original message WAS part of a mailing list, and you're 
> unable to remove this person from the listing, please forward a copy of 
> this message to the list keeper (coordinator) for removal. 
>  
> Thanks, 
>        John McAlpin  -  IMA Gatekeeper 
>        john.mcalpin@1202.ima.infomail.com 
>        FidoNet 1:382/1202 
>  
> (NONODE.TXT) 
> Original message: 
>  
> -- 
> Date: Mon Nov 17 '97, 06:46:08 
> Attr: pvt fwd kil 
> From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT, (1:382/87.0) 
> To  : hero-l, (1:382/111.0) 
> Subj: Re: TUSV (Vechiles/Weapo 
> -- 
> From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
> @X-To: hero-l@october.com 
> @Subject: Re: TUSV (Vechiles/Weapo 
> @Message-Id: <01IQ3XB2XHG8BF0IRS@JCS1.JCSTATE.EDU> 
> @Reply-To: hero-l@october.com (Multiple recipients of Hero) 
> @Precedence: bulk 
> @Mime-Version: 1.0 
> @Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII 
> @Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
> @Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
> @To: champ-l@omg.org 
>  
>         I wasn't kidding. 
>  
> --- 
>   -- 
>   | Fidonet: NetMgr+ 1:382/86 
>   |Internet: NetMgr+@ima.infomail.com 
>   | 
>   |Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly their own. 
 
X-Sender: mlknight@pop.mindspring.com 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 09:43:16 -0700 
From: Michelle Knight <mlknight@mindspring.com> 
Subject: Re: Bounced message 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 109 
 
At 10:59 AM 12/3/97 -0500, Eric Burns wrote: 
 
>> erm, i've got about 200 of these so far today. . .. anyone else with  
>> simmilar problems this week? 
>>  
> 
>Yeah, I got over 300.  Excuse me for a second.... 
 
 
 You think that *you* have it bad.  I got home early this morning and found 
about 400 of them cluttering my mailbox.  Thank God they're gone. 
 
 
 
Michelle 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:44:49 -0500 (EST) 
From: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu> 
X-Sender: wbushway@mason2.gmu.edu 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Help? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 111 
 
On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> At 09:49 PM 12/2/97 -0600, Robert A. Coffin wrote: 
> 
> >A while back on the net a friend of mine assures me he found a rather long 
> >article about "professional" wrestling for Champions. I have dug and dug 
> >and have found almost nothing.  I am looking for one of the players who, 
> >after watching 4 hours of WCW wrestling, had a brainstorm and wants to 
> >play a pro wrestler type character...any help would be great. 
>  
>    Maybe you could try doing a net search (I recommend 
> http://www.hotbot.com for this one) on the phrase "Ultimate Professional 
> Wrestler"; that, as I recall, was the title of the article. 
 
	Being the person who originally posted it to the list, I truly 
doubt you'll find it by searching the net.  That is because the place 
where I found it no longer exists.  Doesn't matter much, because their 
link to the article was removed before I posted it. 
 
	Therefore, though I do not know the original source of the 
arcticle (beyond it's authors), I feel justified on putting it up on my 
homepage.  I did a lot of work converting it to HTML (especially the 
tables), so tell me what you think. 
 
***	"The Ultimate Professional Wrestler" can be found by visiting my 
horribly incomplete and under construction homepage  
(http://mason.gmu.edu/~wbushway/), selecting "Roleplaying" from the menu 
on the left, then selecting "Champions" from the sub-menu that pops up 
under it.  In the main frame (yes, frames, and I'm not apologizing), go to 
the very bottom of the page.  Follow the link that says "The Ultimate 
Professional Wrestler."  Oh, and you can check out all my other Champions 
stuff, too.  *** 
 
	However, NOTHING else on my homepage works.  None of the links are 
active, nor do I have a "No Frames" version up yet.  Which is why I 
haven't registered with any search engine yet.  Which is why I doubt 
you'll find it with one. 
 
	          William K. Bushway, wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu 
	          http://Mason.GMU.edu/~wbushway/index.html 
	   "I'm betting that I'm just abnormal enough to survive." 
		    -The Tick, The Tick Vs.The Breadmaster 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:51:23 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Help? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 110 
 
 
> > A while back on the net a friend of mine assures me he found a rather long 
> > article about "professional" wrestling for Champions. I have dug and dug 
> > and have found almost nothing.  I am looking for one of the players who, 
> > after watching 4 hours of WCW wrestling, had a brainstorm and wants to 
> > play a pro wrestler type character...any help would be great. 
> 
> I keep threatening to write something up on this.  Maybe once my classes 
> are over next week I finally will and post it on the WEB. 
 
	Well, the article I saw was pretty complete. 
 
> The article is out there someplace, but I forget where.  My bookmark's 
> went poof when my HD crashed a while ago. 
 
	Hmmm.  I have a copy somewhere of The Ultimate Professional 
Wrestler.  I don't have a bookmark, but seem to remember there being a 
link from the Herogames web page. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:58:55 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re:  Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 112 
 
 
> Marvel: 
> X-Men versus the guardians of the M-krann crystal. 
>     "I am Jahf, second guardian..." 
>          :0  :0  :0  I about died, and I was only _reading_ the damn book! 
 
 
	Explain.  I didn't see this one. 
 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 03 Dec 1997 12:01:17 -0500 
Lines: 30 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "CS" == Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> writes: 
 
>> Kaye was out of control.  That is what makes that scene so tense to a 
>> fan of fight choreography. 
 
CS>    Oh, no, no, no.  Danny Kaye was very talented with his stage combat.  
CS> He knew exactly what he was doing.  It was, in fact, his prowess that 
CS> allowed him to *look* like he was clueless and out of control. 
 
By "out of control" I meant that the fight in question was unchoreographed. 
As far as Rathbone was concerned it was for real, because he did not know 
what Kaye would do. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:02:11 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re:  Re: CHAR: Shaggy 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 113 
 
 
> One of the Garou books (I think) contains Shaggy 20 years after the 
> Mystery Machine days, though under a different name to avoid copyright, I 
> suppose.  I found the write up to be amusing, but I never could stand the 
> show and Shaggy ends up a burned out Pentex agent;). 
 
 
	Hmmm.  Gotta see that one. 
 
	Anyway, that show was great.  At least the first series, anyway. 
In the pre-Scrappy (the antichrist of cartoons) days. 
 
	Going with the drug-trip reading of that show, where it was seen 
as one long acid trip, that must make the second series a bad trip, as all 
the monsters were real that time _and_ we had to put up with Scrappy. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Baseball in Hero (was Re: Writing Up Yourself how good is good?) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 03 Dec 1997 12:04:26 -0500 
Lines: 32 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 114 
 
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>>>>> "DM" == Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> writes: 
 
DM> I agree that the pitcher isn't just aiming at a hex. But he's not aiming 
DM> for the glove, either. He's aiming for the strike zone, which is about 
DM> 1/4 man-sized, so I'd give it a 3 (hex) + 4 (shrinking) = 7 DCV. 
 
Sigh. 
 
One does *NOT* use Hero combat to simulate a baseball game. 
 
You (the GM) look at the PC's "PS: Baseball Player" skill, make up some 
numbers for his teammates and the opposing team, roll some dice to give you 
an idea of who is winning, then interrupt the game with the villain of the 
story.  This works better if the villain is one of the PC's Hunteds. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should 
                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: The Court Jester (was Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1) 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:57:52 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Actually, I heard in an interview with Danny Kaye that the fight WAS 
choreographed. But Rathbone couldn't quite get the hang of the scene, so 
a stand-in did his fighting. If you'll look closely, there are a LOT of 
parts of the swordfight where Rathbone's back is all we see. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Re: Baseball in Hero (was Re: Writing Up Yourself how good is goo 
	d?) 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:00:29 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Rat said:  
>One does *NOT* use Hero combat to simulate a baseball game. 
>You (the GM) look at the PC's "PS: Baseball Player" skill, make up  
>some numbers for his teammates and the opposing team, roll some  
>dice to give you an idea of who is winning, then interrupt the game  
>with the villain of the story.  This works better if the villain is one 
of  
>the PC's Hunteds. 
 
But what if you're attacked in the middle of a play? The pitch is 
thrown, the batter hits a pop fly into center field. But just as the 
batter hit, the center fielder was shot. The speedster catcher now has 
to decide to run into the stands to catch the killer, or run to center 
field and catch the ball. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Baseball in Hero (was Re: Writing Up Yourself how good is goo 	d?) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 03 Dec 1997 13:58:22 -0500 
Lines: 36 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
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>>>>> "DM" == Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> writes: 
 
DM> But what if you're attacked in the middle of a play?  The pitch is 
DM> thrown, the batter hits a pop fly into center field. But just as the 
DM> batter hit, the center fielder was shot. The speedster catcher now has 
DM> to decide to run into the stands to catch the killer, or run to center 
DM> field and catch the ball. 
 
Then you make him roll his PS, assuming he does something unheroic and goes 
after the ball. 
 
But I would say you aren't thinking big enough.  He will not have to make 
that choice because the villain will have done something dramatic to the 
ball (Presence attack) giving him time to do whatever it is he wants to 
do... which could be just about anything. 
 
Think big.  This is a game in which it is possible for a villain to steal 
the biggest diamond in the city... the baseball field itself. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should 
                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 14:48:13 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Characteristics 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>	I have heard of Penetrating PRE, used in Presence attacks. 
>I have also heard of Advantages like Reduced END applied to STR. 
>Could you apply other Advantages to Characteristics? 
Penetrating PRE?  How is that useful?  I've never seen it... 
I've seen AP on STR (Gremlin, Classic Enemies), and Reduced END as well. 
These wouldn't affect lifting capacity, or figured CHA at all, IMO. 
However, the AP is tricky with a weapon... But I don't see Gremlin using 
weapons any time soon, and she's an NPC, so it's less important.  Similar 
for Penetrating and other combat oriented Advantages.  Generally, if you 
want these Advantages on STR, especially for Martial Arts, I would say to 
buy them as No Range physical EBs with the appropriate Advantages. 
 
- Jerry 
 
Who is 1 1/2 weeks behind on e-mail... 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Characteristics 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 03 Dec 1997 15:41:17 -0500 
Lines: 24 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes: 
 
JD> Penetrating PRE?  How is that useful? 
 
It is totally useless.  Anyone who would be affected by whatever "damage" 
that penetrates would be affected more greatly by the attack itself. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 20:53:02  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Character experience 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 01 Dec 1997 23:37:55 -0500, C. Badger wrote: 
 
>At 21:15 11/30/97, qts wrote: 
>>I've been having a think (always dangerous!) 
>> 
>>Would people agree that there is a general progression of experience 
>>reflected by cost in the various frameworks? 
>> 
>>With a multipower, generally a character can only use one or two powers 
>>at the same time. 
>> 
>>With an Elemental Control, a character can demonstrate their skill by 
>>performing all their tricks at the same time. 
>> 
>>With a Variable Power Pool, a character can demonstrate their mastery 
>>by doing *anything* [related to the SFX and guided by the Limitations, 
>>of course]. 
>> 
>>Comments? And yes, I know that a VPP can be cheaper than an EC, but 
>>you've got the AP cap. 
> 
>Also depending on what limits you might be able to use more then one power 
>in a VPP also......   
> 
>But what are you trying to get at here? 
 
I'm not entirely sure. It seems a logical progression, and I'm 
wondering what others think. 
 
>Multipower is fairly easy to (low cost) to add something new, VPP easy to 
>increase powers of EC is harder to expand overall with new experience. 
 
I disagree about the EC: you just increase the powers you want, and 
once you've increased them all, you can increase the EC bonus. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 21:01:26  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Character experience 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:47:26 -0500 (EST), Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
 
> 
> 
>On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, qts wrote: 
> 
>> Would people agree that there is a general progression of experience 
>> reflected by cost in the various frameworks? 
>>  
>> With a multipower, generally a character can only use one or two powers 
>> at the same time. 
>>  
>> With an Elemental Control, a character can demonstrate their skill by 
>> performing all their tricks at the same time. 
>>  
>> With a Variable Power Pool, a character can demonstrate their mastery 
>> by doing *anything* [related to the SFX and guided by the Limitations, 
>> of course]. 
>>  
> 
>I disagree strongly that the frameworks represent a progression of 
>experience. They *might* represent such a progression, if it suited a 
>character's special effects, but the frameworks are more likely to be 
>employed to simulate effects which won't blend into one another with 
>experience. 
> 
>A multipower, for example, might represent a limited power supply for a 
>number of gadgets. No matter how good you are with that laser pistol, it's 
>still going to cut into the energy for your anti-grav boots. Or it might 
>consist of ultra-slots of mutually exclusive powers or weapons - no amount 
>of experience is going to let you assume your flame form and your water 
>form at the same time. Speaking of ultra slots, consider their inspiration 
>- Ultra Boy of the Legion of Super Heroes. Pre-Zero Hour, he got quite 
>experienced but could still only use one power at a time; it was just the 
>way his powers worked. 
 
Being FH oriented, I'm more interested in wielders of power rather than 
modelling items.  
 
Consider Lolly Pop, a cold-oriented super: to start with she has a MP 
with ultra slots, as she can't control her powers well enough to do 
more than one thing at a time. Later, she gets more control over her 
powers, and learns to do more than one thing at a time and thus has an 
EC. Later still, she gains complete mastery over her ice powers, and 
thus has a VPP.  
 
A side effect of this I've just realised is that it keeps the power 
level down 
 
 
>Moreover, a VPP is more than the product of experience. There's a 
>difference between being very very good at using one's abilities and being 
>able to do *anything*. 
 
A VPP is limited to a single SFX. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"Rick Holding\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 21:05:43  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Just some more confusion. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 02 Dec 1997 20:20:05 -0800, Rick Holding wrote: 
 
>"qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> "champ-l@omg.org" wrote: 
> 
>> >       Tiki has Telekenesis.  He can use it to fly around (Flight), 
>> >and to carry his friends along with him. 
>> >       Tiki should buy Flight UAO for his friends.  What's the limit 
>> >Tink could carry while flying? 
>>  
>> Tiki should buy Flight Usable BY Others.	 
>	I disagree.  Tiki is the one who is in control.  Flight usable by  
>others gives control of the flight to the others.  Tiki is carrying them  
>with TK.  He should buy AoE or Explosion on his TK to represent him  
>carrying them with perhaps a selective advantage if he has fine control. 
 
So just limit it 'Must be within X" of Tiki'. This will help out when 
they get attacked in the air. 
 
> 
>>  
>> > His STR or his TK's STR?  Could 
>> >TK 'carry' and object along with him using his TK while flying? 
>> >       If Tiki picked up an object (like a log), and wanted it 
>> >to accelerate towards something, how fast would it travel and how 
>> >much damage would it do? 
>> >       Mechanically, how would TK_ based on EGo, Invisible power 
>> >effects (except for mental) effect a target?  Would it do BODY? 
>> >What defense wouuld be applied against it?  Would STR be rolled to break 
>> >out of this particular type of TK's grab? 
>>  
>> You seem to be going about this the wrong way: think of all the effects 
>> Tiki can do (Flight, TK, EB vs PD, RKA [when Tiki picks up a nasty 
>> pointy bit of metal], etc) and put them in a framework, either a 
>> Multipower or Elemental Control. 
> 
>	Certainly, an elemental control would be the best way.  This would  
>allow Tiki to both fly and carry things at the same time.  Other powers  
>that could be considered would be force wall, missile de/reflection and  
>explosive energy blast with double knockback and zero range. 
 
Sounds good to me. 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 21:06:31  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Just some more confusion 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 01 Dec 1997 16:17:43 -0500 (EST), ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
 
>	How would you calculate the KB from a EB Autofire, Indrect, Invisible 
>Power Effects (except mental), the f/x being 'fluidic fisticuffs,' tiny 
>poltergeist-like punches and pinches from all directions? 
 
If they're all tiny, there is NO knockback. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"Len Carpenter\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 21:12:36  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Waste of Bandwidth 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 2 Dec 1997 02:05:47 -0500, Len Carpenter wrote: 
 
> 
> 
>For comic book fights, 
 
<snip> 
 
>Last but not least, Thrud the Barbarian vs. anyone.   
 
Yes! 
 
Remember the Elric lampoon? And the 'battering ram'? 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:18:13 -0800 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
Organization: McAfee 
Subject: Re: All these damn bounce messages 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Todd Hanson wrote: 
>  
> Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   They don't look to me like they're being bounced from Red October; 
>  
> > rather, from someone at Austin Imformation Association (ima.infomail.com). 
> > My guess is that someone who subscribed to the list either lost his address 
> > there, or dropped it without telling the list manager. 
>  
> On every one of the messages, the 'reply-to' field is set to 
> 'hero-l@october.com (multiple recipients of Hero)' 
>  
> This still looks like Red October to me. 
>  
> Todd 
 
I wrote the sysadm at infomail. 
 
I wrote: 
> The champ-l list manager might of already contacted you, but it 
> looks like there is a multiple bounce happenning. I've gotten 
> ~200 messages in the last couple hours that look like this: 
> <snip> 
 
Sorry about that. This was a backlog that got freed up.  There should 
only be bounced message now when they are sent to a non-existant 
address. Sorry for the inconvenience. 
 
John 
 
---- 
So it looks like it probably was somebody who gets the champs list 
forwarded from Red october thru this gate. Actually for a bounce 
screw-up, it could of been much worse. 
 
-Mark Lemming 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:26:53 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: TUSV: Locks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
   Here's a little something that just occurred to me, and I typed it into 
my manuscript for TUSV this morning.  I'd like to see what people think. 
(It's been placed under Talents, for lack of a better category.) 
 
Locks 
 
   By default, every vehicle has doors that lock, and an ignition that 
locks.  Each of these may be either a physical lock that uses a key, and 
which requires the Lockpicking Skill to bypass, or an electronic lock that 
uses a number combination, and which requires the Security Systems Skill to 
get past.  In both cases the Skill Roll for overcoming the lock without the 
key is unmodified. 
   However, this special, optional Talent can provide penalties to the 
Skill Roll for purposes of trying to get in, or for purposes of trying to 
start the vehicle.  For every point spent in the Talent, those trying to 
break in get a -1 to their Lockpicking or Security Systems Roll on one of 
the two locks.  (If the vehicle has a computer with Skills that would 
oppose the character trying to use Lockpicking or Security Systems, then 
this Talent simply adds to the Skill Roll for purposes of the one lock.) 
   Optionally, a vehicle's trunk (cargo space) may be considered a separate 
Lock, and must be overcome separately. 
   Note that, while the exterior, ignition, and optional trunk Locks are 
freebies, a separate Lock must be purchased if the designer wants some 
other level of security.  For example, a player may want the control panel 
for the vehicle's weapons to have a lock.  Such a lock costs 2 points (per 
lock) just to have it locked up, plus 1 point per -1 to the necessary 
Lockpicking or Security Systems Roll. 
 
   My logic for the costs is this:  Even though each point is like buying a 
Skill Level with Lockpicking (or whatever skill), which would normally cost 
2 points per +/-1, it seemed rather excessive to charge 2 points for just 
one set of locks, and it didn't seem logical to charge a blanket cost for 
all locks on the vehicle. 
   The 2 points per additional Lock is because 1 point per +1 is only 
available for Background Skills, so I decided to structure a Lock like a 
Background Skill that just doesn't use a Roll. 
   Any feedback would be welcome. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 21:27:28  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Fight scenes 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
All this talk about fight scenes leads me to a question:  
 
Can anyone cite a fight scene funnier than those in Braveheart which is 
NOT deliberately funny?  
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:50:43 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: VPP Question 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Brian Wong wrote: 
 
> >    Later, in the limitations, a example he gives is: -1/2 Limited Special 
> > Effects. 
> >  
> >    My question is: is by default the powers in VPP have to be of a 
> > specific special effects and that limitation is applicable only if this 
> > special effect is somehow limited (if this is the case, example please... 
> > I am not sure I understood how would be this case) or is the limitation  
> > applicable if the powers have common special effects (So the powers 
> > doesn't need to be of the same special effect by default then?) ? 
> >  
> 	No, it does not have to be of a particular special effect according 
> to the rules. 
 
Yes, it does. Read the first sentence of the section on VPPs. This point 
is repeated numerous times throughout the section as well. 
 
> 	On the other hand, what's that lim there for? 
>  
> Is 'Gadget Powers' worth it? or 'Magic'? 
> I would say no. 
> However 'Cybernetic Implants' or 'Voodoo Sorcery' would get it in my book. 
>  
> The Diff? 
>  
> The level of detail. The first two are very broad catagories that will give 
> almost anything. The second two are very detailed and possibly very 
> restrictive. They are therefore a 'limited special effect' as I call it. 
 
Agreed. 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:51:52 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Baseball in Hero (was Re: Writing Up Yourself how good is good?) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 3 Dec 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> DM> I agree that the pitcher isn't just aiming at a hex. But he's not aiming 
> DM> for the glove, either. He's aiming for the strike zone, which is about 
> DM> 1/4 man-sized, so I'd give it a 3 (hex) + 4 (shrinking) = 7 DCV. 
>  
> Sigh. 
>  
> One does *NOT* use Hero combat to simulate a baseball game. 
 
But if the system works well, you should be _able_ to and expect  
semi-reasonable results. 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:53:14 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re:  Re: Characteristics 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> >I'd allow Penetrating PRE. If you got at least 10 "body" on your PRE 
> >dice roll, you'd get at least a PRE+10 result off the chart. That's how 
> >we ran Mind Control: Penetrating.  
>  
>    Again, this is nothing like what Penetrating does in the book.  If it's 
> how you want to run effect-based Powers as a house rule, then that's 
> different, but by the printed rules Penetrating Mind Control simply has a 
> minimum total effect equal to the amount of BODY rolled on it (and is 
> therefore only useful if it as the Cumulative Advantage also on it). 
 
Cumulative? On Mind Control? Does that really belong in a paragraph 
allegedly describing the by-the-book rules? 
 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:58:26 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Help? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Todd Hanson wrote: 
 
> a few examples I've used: 
>  
> martial strike:       headbutt, punch or forearm 
> martial throw:      armdrag, hurricarana (frankensteiner), any number of 
> suplexes 
 
Eh. I know you don't want to get too detailed, but I have difficulty with 
the idea of an armdrag and a hurricarana being mechanically identical.  
 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:59:16 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
> > > 	-Snake Pliskin vs. the big gladiator in Escape from New York (he 
> > > was really fighting for his life in that one) 
> > 
> > Well, consider the gladiator was Ox Baker, from my home town of 
> > Indianapolis.  He accidently killed two men in the wrestling ring as a pro 
> > wrestler, so you are right on here.  REALLY fighting for his life:) 
>  
> 	Yeah.  In the director's release they're talking about the fight, 
> and Ox just didn't seem to have the point of restraint and "fake" combat. 
 
Which, if you think about it, is a pretty odd problem for a pro wrestler 
to have. 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 17:12:29 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>Okay, here is a totally useless but amusing question: 
> 
>What are the top five fight sequences you have ever seen (any media)? 
>This can include live action, animated, comic book, what ever.  The only 
>requirement is that it be between people, not space ships or fighter 
>planes. 
> 
oop.  Well, I can list some, not necessarily in order... and not 
necessarily *THE BEST*, either... 
 
A) John Cuszack, Dan Aykroyd.  "Grosse Point Blank"  I enjoyed the whole 
movie, especially the gunfight at the end, I've never pictured Aykroyd as 
an assassin before. 
 
B) "Demon City Shinjuku"  The bit with the 
Spider/Human/Demon/Drider-looking thing with the mouth on it's human chest, 
and the hero with the bokken. 
 
C) "The Tick v. Filth," from the Tick TV show.  Ok, ok, it wasn't that 
great a fight, but it seemed really Kirby-esque, and the Urchin was great! 
 
D) JLA #14 (current series).  The assault by the heroes on Darkseid's 
empire... and he gets taken out by Connor and Ray...  (GA and the Atom, 
that is) 
 
E) eeeee....  nevermind. 
 
Basically, I was trying to hit some that others didn't... 
 
>2) Chun Li vs Vega in "Streetfighter II the Animated Movie". 
> 
Good one.  Very dynamic. 
 
>4) Son Goku (and Vegita) vs Metal Kooler in Dragonball Z Movie 6 
> 
Ehh.  I don't go in for that sort of thing normally, and I haven't seen 
this particular one at all.  What draws you to it? 
 
- Jerry 
 
Who has just realized he's caught up on his e-mail now...  : D 
 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 22:22:13  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Marvel Conversions:  Doctor Doom 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 02 Dec 1997 23:31:40 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
>>I've seen Doom's face. His "horribly scarred face" has a single scar 
>>two inches long on one cheek. He's just psychotic about it. 
>> 
>Didn't realize you and Vic were friends... 
>But, regardless, I haven't seen his face, but current comic mags show close 
>ups of his eyes continuously, and they have burn scars around them, 
>reminiscent of Baron Zemo. 
 
The amount of scarring varies wildly from creative team to creative team.  I've seen him  
appearing in comics at both ends of the scale.  Kirby's drawings always implied a  
great deal of scarring under the mask - and Kirby did draw him first. 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:25:21 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Character experience 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, qts wrote: 
 
> On Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:47:26 -0500 (EST), Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>  
> > 
> >On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, qts wrote: 
> > 
> >> Would people agree that there is a general progression of experience 
> >> reflected by cost in the various frameworks? 
> >>  
[snip] 
> > 
> >I disagree strongly that the frameworks represent a progression of 
> >experience. They *might* represent such a progression, if it suited a 
> >character's special effects, but the frameworks are more likely to be 
> >employed to simulate effects which won't blend into one another with 
> >experience. 
> > 
>  
> Being FH oriented, I'm more interested in wielders of power rather than 
> modelling items.  
>  
> Consider Lolly Pop, a cold-oriented super: to start with she has a MP 
> with ultra slots, as she can't control her powers well enough to do 
> more than one thing at a time. Later, she gets more control over her 
> powers, and learns to do more than one thing at a time and thus has an 
> EC. Later still, she gains complete mastery over her ice powers, and 
> thus has a VPP.  
>  
> A side effect of this I've just realised is that it keeps the power 
> level down 
>  
 
I can see how this approach will work quite well for what you want to do. 
My only objection was the implication that this progression might be 
inherent in the system, which it certainly is not. Making a progression of 
these frameworks part of your magic system, though, is entirely valid and 
a good idea. 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 15:06:52 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Baseball in Hero 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:58 PM 12/3/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "DM" == Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> writes: 
> 
>DM> But what if you're attacked in the middle of a play?  The pitch is 
>DM> thrown, the batter hits a pop fly into center field. But just as the 
>DM> batter hit, the center fielder was shot. The speedster catcher now has 
>DM> to decide to run into the stands to catch the killer, or run to center 
>DM> field and catch the ball. 
> 
>Then you make him roll his PS, assuming he does something unheroic and goes 
>after the ball. 
 
   Nah.  He goes after the ball, catches the fly to win the game, and then 
throws the ball to bean the villain. 
 
>But I would say you aren't thinking big enough.  He will not have to make 
>that choice because the villain will have done something dramatic to the 
>ball (Presence attack) giving him time to do whatever it is he wants to 
>do... which could be just about anything. 
> 
>Think big.  This is a game in which it is possible for a villain to steal 
>the biggest diamond in the city... the baseball field itself. 
 
   Good plot for Facet (the closest thing to a cool villain in European 
Enemies) to come to the USA. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 15:07:30 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Bounced message 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:59 AM 12/3/97 -0500, Eric Burns wrote: 
>> erm, i've got about 200 of these so far today. . .. anyone else with  
>> simmilar problems this week? 
>>  
> 
>Yeah, I got over 300.  Excuse me for a second.... 
> 
>AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
> 
>erm... okay, I'm better now. 
 
   My count of the total before it stopped is 698. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 19:50:27 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition Hero Syste 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    Killing Attacks only ingore non-resistant defenses for purposes of BODY, 
> unless the target has no non-resistant defenses at all. 
>    They also do less STUN on average, and less knockback. 
 
They don't do less STUN, except against low-defense opponents. A quick 
look at the expected damage that a 15 AP killing attack and a 15 AP normal 
attack do against various levels of DEF: 
 
	Normal	Killing 
0 DEF	10.5	9.33 
5 DEF	5.52	5.08 
6 DEF	4.57	4.5 
7 DEF	3.66	4.03 
8 DEF	2.83	3.56 
9 DEF	2.08	3.14 
10 DEF	1.46	2.75 
15 DEF	0.07	1.33 
20 DEF	0	0.53 
 
With more dice it the calculations get longer, but I can't see any reason 
why the same trends wouldn't occur at higher levels. 
 
> And they cannot be Bounced or Spread. 
 
I've found no rule stating that they can't be bounced. 
 
>    Theoretically, at least, these are supposed to balance out the fact that 
> KAs do more BODY on average, and ignore non-resistant defenses for purposes 
> of BODY (and for STUN if the target has no resistant defenses). 
 
They do more BODY, comparable STUN, and get a form of AVLD for free. 
Against that we have that they can't be spread which, on its own, isn't 
even enough to merit a -1/4 Limitation. Doesn't seem balanced to me. 
 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 03 Dec 1997 18:57:24 -0500 
Lines: 31 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
BG>    However, this special, optional Talent can provide penalties to the 
BG> Skill Roll for purposes of trying to get in, or for purposes of trying 
BG> to start the vehicle.  For every point spent in the Talent, those 
BG> trying to break in get a -1 to their Lockpicking or Security Systems 
BG> Roll on one of the two locks. 
 
Just a point, but a lock is only part of the system.  Anyone breaking into 
a car bypasses the door and ignition locks, the former with a slim jim, the 
latter with a screwdriver if the ignition wires are inaccessible.  The 
former circumvents the keyway, the latter either bypasses it entirely or 
breaks it off. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNIXx356VRH7BJMxHAQGX0AQAg9uQaCJaiYIcr2dGi6d+mk7/Ns1m02WL 
TYMrG4llpikmjwY2rYpQNjnkY4TOJ+6vOnpkY5mF4uZyVzFSdC8Obw0t2ThHx2L9 
zqrpo+UNDlH8eEIV439MapfOiV8ClqfD/GTKwR9pkSfVEOszSU/EooEeUoKn1KWx 
OsinazCCQwg= 
=6reB 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:58:19 -0800 
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger) 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks 
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
     Maybe it would just be easier to have a talent give a blanket -3 or 5 
     to lockpicking roles, rather than have to buy each minus separately.  
     I know that I don't need *that* much detail in my vehicle designs. 
      
     Richard 
 
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:59:45 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Baseball in Hero 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> >Think big.  This is a game in which it is possible for a villain to steal 
> >the biggest diamond in the city... the baseball field itself. 
>  
>    Good plot for Facet (the closest thing to a cool villain in European 
> Enemies) to come to the USA. 
 
Just make sure you pick the right team.  I mean, no one would notice if 
you stole (for example) Fenway Park after September 1st, since the Red Sox 
never seem to be using it at that time. 
 
(Now, if it was the Baltimore Orioles...) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 17:19:56 -0800 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
Organization: McAfee 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
One fight that no one has mentioned: 
 
The whole comic book: DESTROY! 
 
-Mark 
 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 17:30:58 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Bounced messages (and bounced and bounced and....) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 96 
 
-- Well ,that was fun.  Some 400+ messages saying the same bloody thing.  
 Who runs that place? 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 21:11:51 -0600 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
Subject: Re: Help? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
> On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Todd Hanson wrote: 
> 
> > a few examples I've used: 
> > 
> > martial strike:       headbutt, punch or forearm 
> > martial throw:      armdrag, hurricarana (frankensteiner), any number of 
> > suplexes 
> 
> Eh. I know you don't want to get too detailed, but I have difficulty with 
> the idea of an armdrag and a hurricarana being mechanically identical. 
 
Why?  The name of the maneuver means nothing, the effect is what is 
important.  In both cases you are throwing your opponent to the mat (although 
the hurricarana obviously uses more force, and should probably include the 
'you fall' component). 
 
With the character I played, I had a handful of 'generic' moves and called it 
whatever I wanted at the time.  Wether I was hitting the guy with a 'belly to 
belly suplex' or a 'hurricarana', it was still a martial throw with another 
name. 
 
Todd 
 
 
 
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 22:55:27 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Bounced message 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
> >erm... okay, I'm better now. 
>  
>    My count of the total before it stopped is 698. 
 
Well!  I seem to have lucked out at a mere 362!  :-( 
 
In the "counting our blessings" department, it could have been worse --  
much worse.  A friend of mine endured an incident a couple of years ago  
where the system containing the closed account bounced messages directly  
to members of the list (via the cc: header, I guess) *in addition* to the  
list server, *and* kept the closed account as the REPLY-TO line. 
 
Begin Redeeming Champions Value Statement: 
	Clearly, someone took PS: Programmer at the 8- everyman level! 
End Redeeming Champions Value Statement. 
 
The predictable result was double the number of messages per unit time,  
until the inevitable happened, and some recipients started to overflow  
their inboxes.  Their systems replied to the REPLY-TO line, as well as to  
the listserver, causing two messages back to the closed account, which  
sent a message to the full accounts and to the list server.... 
 
Final message count was in the thousands, and in only one day! 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
From: "potroast@theoven" <darkwraith@worldnet.att.net> 
Subject: Huh??? 
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 01:33:59 -0600 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I came back online after three days and found 547 messages in my box, what 
gives and what are these "bounced messages" 
 
                                                                 --Potroast 
 
"When you employ a  hostageas a shield, pick one big enough to cover your 
whole body or a least the parts you like" 
                                                        John Pascucci 
(former US Marshal) 
 
X-Sender: geoff@emerald.omg.org 
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 08:32:06 -0500 
From: geoff@omg.org (Geoff Speare) 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> 
>Locks 
> 
 
It seems more logical to give the vehicle a skill which opposes the 
Lockpicker's attempts to break in. (I'd say Lockpicking, except the vehicle 
doesn't go around opening other vehicles. :-) I guess it would be Locking 
Skill. To keep things easy, assume the vehicle always rolls an 11, so the 
default is that the lockpicker needs a straight roll to break in, -1 for 
every +1 the vehicle gets. 
 
Then you can just limit the Skill if it doesn't apply to every lock (that 
way, a vehicle with 10 out of 11 doors locked doesn't cost a huge amount) 
or however else you want. 
 
This way, you don't need an extra roll, and you aren't creating a new Talent. 
 
Geoff Speare 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 05:50:05 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re:  Re: Characteristics 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:53 PM 12/3/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>> >I'd allow Penetrating PRE. If you got at least 10 "body" on your PRE 
>> >dice roll, you'd get at least a PRE+10 result off the chart. That's how 
>> >we ran Mind Control: Penetrating.  
>>  
>>    Again, this is nothing like what Penetrating does in the book.  If it's 
>> how you want to run effect-based Powers as a house rule, then that's 
>> different, but by the printed rules Penetrating Mind Control simply has a 
>> minimum total effect equal to the amount of BODY rolled on it (and is 
>> therefore only useful if it as the Cumulative Advantage also on it). 
> 
>Cumulative? On Mind Control? Does that really belong in a paragraph 
>allegedly describing the by-the-book rules? 
 
   See The Ultimate Mentalist, page 77. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 05:59:18 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Help? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:11 PM 12/3/97 -0600, Todd Hanson wrote: 
>> > martial throw:      armdrag, hurricarana (frankensteiner), any number of 
>> > suplexes 
>> 
>> Eh. I know you don't want to get too detailed, but I have difficulty with 
>> the idea of an armdrag and a hurricarana being mechanically identical. 
> 
>Why?  The name of the maneuver means nothing, the effect is what is 
>important.  In both cases you are throwing your opponent to the mat (although 
>the hurricarana obviously uses more force, and should probably include the 
>'you fall' component). 
> 
>With the character I played, I had a handful of 'generic' moves and called it 
>whatever I wanted at the time.  Wether I was hitting the guy with a 'belly to 
>belly suplex' or a 'hurricarana', it was still a martial throw with another 
>name. 
 
   Pardon a guy totally unfamiliar with the genre cutting in here, but it 
looks to me like the hurricarana should be a Sacrifice Throw 
(+2/+1/STR/Both Fall). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks 
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:03:25 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Geoff said: 
>It seems more logical to give the vehicle a skill which opposes the 
>Lockpicker's attempts to break in. I guess it would be Locking 
>Skill. To keep things easy, assume the vehicle always rolls an 11,  
>so the default is that the lockpicker needs a straight roll to break  
>n, -1 for every +1 the vehicle gets. 
 
I prefer Geoff's version. This way, a vehicle's locking skill (11- for 
free, +1 per +2) is treated the same way that bases treat laboratories. 
 
My 8-man spaceship has locking at 14- (for 6 points), and security 
systems at 15- (3 for the base and 8 for the +4). That covers all of the 
locks and alarms by default. But on my brig, I add +5 lockpicking and +5 
to security systems for 20 points with a -1 limitation that it only 
applies to the brig, for 10 points. The limitation value is up to the 
GM. If I'm a space cop, and routinely throw criminals in my brig, the 
lim might only be a -1/2. If I'll probably only use my brig once a year, 
a -2 should be fine. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 06:03:27 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:58 PM 12/3/97 -0800, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote: 
>     Maybe it would just be easier to have a talent give a blanket -3 or 5 
>     to lockpicking roles, rather than have to buy each minus separately.  
>     I know that I don't need *that* much detail in my vehicle designs. 
 
   You know, sometimes I get these suggestions and feel like a real idiot 
-- but not for the reason you probably think. 
   What you suggest was my first inclination.  Then I thought, why should 
the design on one Lock affect any of the others?  So I wrote the Talent to 
cover them individually. 
   But your last sentence really struck me.  There are a lot of GMs like 
you, who might want this rule without that level of detail.  There should 
also be an option to buy the Lockpicking/Security Systems penalty for all 
the locks at 2 points per -1. 
   Duh. 
   But, of course, that's why I put these things before other people; one 
man alone can't come up with everything. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 06:10:50 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 06:57 PM 12/3/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>BG>    However, this special, optional Talent can provide penalties to the 
>BG> Skill Roll for purposes of trying to get in, or for purposes of trying 
>BG> to start the vehicle.  For every point spent in the Talent, those 
>BG> trying to break in get a -1 to their Lockpicking or Security Systems 
>BG> Roll on one of the two locks. 
> 
>Just a point, but a lock is only part of the system.  Anyone breaking into 
>a car bypasses the door and ignition locks, the former with a slim jim, the 
>latter with a screwdriver if the ignition wires are inaccessible.  The 
>former circumvents the keyway, the latter either bypasses it entirely or 
>breaks it off. 
 
   That is one part of the vehicle theft rules I'm working up that I'm 
having trouble with.  I don't know that it really belongs with the Locks 
talent, though I may change the name to something like "Integrity" and 
broaden it. 
   What you describe, I think, is a little more akin to using Mechanics (or 
even PS: Auto Thief) to bypass the lock system.  Now, there might be a 
penalty to this, which is where the Integrity Talent would come in. 
   There's another point to this, too, though.  These rules aren't intended 
for just automobiles; there are also locks and other security systems on 
boats, aircraft, and other vehicles as well.  (I'm trying to imagine a 
group of chop-shoppers hot-wiring a 747.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 06:19:36 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:31 PM 12/4/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote: 
>I would put some upper limit as to how good the locks are.  It would be  
>relatively cheap (especially when brought within a vehicle) to buy enough 
of a  
>bonus to the lock talent to make it effectively impossible to crack. 
 
   I've inserted a note that this may be advisable.  Most campaigns can 
probably do well with a limit of -5. 
 
>This was going to be one of my suggestions to the thread asking what to 
put in  
>5th edition champions.  There are two different skills to defeat locking  
>devices but nowhere is it detailed how to MAKE a lock, be it on a vehicle or  
>within a base.  How much does it cost to have a combination lock on the cell  
>door?  Two points per lock in the place (windows are free) is useable. 
> 
>One thing.  Do you have to buy the increased effectiveness of the lock  
>seperatly or are all locks considered the same? 
 
   As I wrote it, the effectiveness is bought separately.  Based on 
Richard's point, however, I've also added an option of 2 points per -1 on 
all locks (and hopefully the palm-shaped welt on my forehead won't take 
long to heal). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:13:07 -0500 (EST) 
From: Mikhael Bornstein - AERE/W94 <mbornste@acs.ryerson.ca> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Fights! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
Here are a few suggestions.  Hope they help. 
 
On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> Okay, now that people have started to mention their favorite fights, what 
> suggestions to people have to make Hero fights move (or work) like this 
> fictional fights? 
>  
> For example: In a lot of martial arts flims the hero (or heroes) will one 
> punch his way through the 'popcorn' until he reaches the big boss.  In 
> Feng Shui they handle this with a system where the mooks are either up or 
> down.  There is no damage to worry about.   
 
Try to design expendable agents so that the average attack from a  
player will knock an agent out.  During play, when a player makes a  
successful attack roll, assume the agent is knocked out.  Only worry  
about calculating damage for Lieutenants and Big Bosses.     
 
> Example Two:  Ever watch a John Woo gunfight?  (See Face/Off, The Killer 
> or Hard Boiled). Any suggestions on how to get the characters moving 
> around the battle field?  I mean people in these fights are leaping 
> through windows, over tables, sliding down stairs etc. 
 
Two suggestions: 
 
1.  Have the villians do this.  When the players find that they are  
constantly getting outmaneuvered (geting shot at from behind, ect.) they  
will start moving around a lot more.  Don't forget to assign OCV or  
DCV bonuses for dramatic maneuvers.     
 
2.  It helps to give the players a reason to move around.  If they have  
to capture a certain henchman, or find an item before the villians do,  
then they are less likely to hunker down behind some cover. 
 
> How about location?  Any ideas on how to get the characters to move from 
> one entire local to another?  By this I dont mean bouncing around in the 
> current fight scene, I'm talking more of the Indiana Jones styled fast 
> moving sequence where the characters go from point A to point B to point C 
> in a short period of time (usually battling someone at the same time). 
 
Again, the players will usually follow where they villians lead. 
 
> Mega Damage: Cell points his fist and vaporizes a city.  Hulk tosses Power 
> Man through some skyscrapers.  Spidey gets the Capt Universe power and 
> punches Hulk into orbit.   
>  
> Doinng some (or all) of this is Hero System can get might expensive (or 
> impossible).  Is this a case of differing point values, or should the GM 
> just 'wing it' when describing certain types of damage.  Would it be out 
> of line for the 60 STR brick to pick up a character and toss him *through* 
> a building with no damage dice rolled? 
 
Sit down before combat and spend some time looking at what the hero's can  
do.  Figure out how many wall the brick can punch a villian though on an  
average roll and a good roll.  Once you have a good feeling for what your  
players can do you can make snap judgements in combat and avoid 15  
minutes of calculations. 
 
Here are a couple of ways to simulate Mega damage without upping the  
point level. 
 
I've played in a campaign where they GM assumed that the entire city was  
built from "shoddy materials"  and lowered the DEF and BODY of walls and  
inanimate objects.  It made it much easier to punch people through  
multiple walls. 
 
I had another friend who used what he called the tissue paper effect.  If  
knockback did more than double the DEF+BODY of a wall then you just  
ignored the wall like it was tissue paper.  Sort of like casual strength. 
 
You could also steal an idea from Mystic Masters where give everone a X2  
effect from mystic mental attack.  If you wanted heros and villians  
getting knocked around the battle field like in comics you could just  
give everyone double knockback for free.  I've never played this but it  
seems workable. 
 
> Finally, any ideas on how to siumlate the fast and furious action of a 
> good one-on-one fencing match or martial arts fight?  Limit the characters 
> time to make descisions?  Have a lot of stuff rolled out in advance?   
 
Make the hero's role play the combat.  Have them describe their actions i  
a lot of detail.  Reward surprise maneuvers.  Definitely limit the players  
time to make decisions.  I've found that this heightens the tension and  
makes combat more of a role-playing experience and less of a wargaming one. 
Snapping, "What do you do?" every time the player's phase comes up will  
work wonders.   
 
Again, do your homework.  Before your players show up run a mock combat  
between teh hero's and villians.  That way you'll have a feel for what  
both sides can do and you won't have to spend as much time counting dice. 
 
> Feedback appreciated.  I'll probably collect everyone's comments annd 
> write a Herozine article or something. 
>  
> *************************************************************************** 
> * "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
> *               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
> *        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
> *              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
> *            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
> * Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
> *************************************************************************** 
>  
>  
 
 
Good Luck, 
 
Mikhael 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 07:31:16 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:32 AM 12/4/97 -0500, Geoff Speare wrote: 
>>Locks 
> 
>It seems more logical to give the vehicle a skill which opposes the 
>Lockpicker's attempts to break in. (I'd say Lockpicking, except the vehicle 
>doesn't go around opening other vehicles. :-) I guess it would be Locking 
>Skill. To keep things easy, assume the vehicle always rolls an 11, so the 
>default is that the lockpicker needs a straight roll to break in, -1 for 
>every +1 the vehicle gets. 
 
   This is basically what I've done. 
 
>Then you can just limit the Skill if it doesn't apply to every lock (that 
>way, a vehicle with 10 out of 11 doors locked doesn't cost a huge amount) 
>or however else you want. 
 
   I'm counting all external doors as one [free] Lock for purposes of the 
Talent. 
 
>This way, you don't need an extra roll, and you aren't creating a new Talent. 
 
   No, I'm creating a new Skill, which is not really any worse (it's just a 
matter of what category it goes in). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Originating-IP: [206.88.2.1] 
From: "Todd Hanson" <badtodd@hotmail.com> 
Subject: Re: Help? 
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 10:21:11 CST 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Bob says: 
>>Why?  The name of the maneuver means nothing, the effect is what is 
>>important.  In both cases you are throwing your opponent to the mat  
(although 
>>the hurricarana obviously uses more force, and should probably include  
the 
>>'you fall' component). 
>> 
>>With the character I played, I had a handful of 'generic' moves and  
called it 
>>whatever I wanted at the time.  Wether I was hitting the guy with a  
'belly to 
>>belly suplex' or a 'hurricarana', it was still a martial throw with  
another 
>>name. 
 
>   Pardon a guy totally unfamiliar with the genre cutting in here, but  
it 
>looks to me like the hurricarana should be a Sacrifice Throw 
(+2/+1/STR/Both Fall). 
 
It depends on how you intend on using the character.  If you intend to  
use it in a 'wrestling campaign', then it should include the 'you fall'  
component.  But (as I had said earlier in the thread), if you intend to  
use this as a character in a superhero campaign, then the part about the  
wrestler falling should be special effect - you fall, but you hop back  
to your feet before anyone can take advantage of your prone position.   
If you make the wrestler take the 'you fall' on all of his maneuvers  
(which wrestling SHOULD do) then he is going to end every action lying  
on the ground and will spend every combat being GMO'd on phase 12. 
 
So, working under the assumption that the wrestler falling is only  
special effect - martial throw can be used for ANY move that throws the  
opponent to the mat (and does damage to them). (although maybe legsweep  
would be more appropriate for some of them).  
 
This is assuming that you want to use existing maneuvers and not build  
your own. Many GMs I've played with won't allow players to build their  
own moves - way too much opportunity for abuse (this is my full-move,  
adds velocity, throws em to the ground, pokes em in the eye move!) 
 
 
Todd 
 
______________________________________________________ 
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com 
 
From: "Sean Pavlish" <pavlish@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Bounced message 
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:42:22 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
> erm, i've got about 200 of these so far today. . .. anyone else with 
> simmilar problems this week? 
> 
 
Unfortunately I went to download all these bounced messages and lost my 
connection just before I got them all.  So, the messages hadn't gotten erased 
off my server yet...  And, I got to download them a second time... 
 
Yeah! 
 
Sean 
 
 
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:44:55 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: Worlds greatest fights 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Well, since the thread has died, here are the totals: 
 
10	Princess Bride - Inigo Montoya vs The Man in Black 
 
8	Big Trouble in Little China - The final battle sequence 
 
5	Princess Bride - Inigo Montoya vs Count Rugen 
 
3	Blind Fury - Rutger Hauer vs a bunch of barroom toughs (among 
others fights) 
 
3	Dragons Forever - Jackie Chan, Samo Hung and Yeung Biao vs Yuen 
Wah, Bennie the Jet and a zillion mooks 
 
3	Enter the Dragon - Bruce Lee vs a zillion goons in Mr. Han's 
basement 
 
3	Streetfighter II the Animated Movie - Chun Li vs Vega 
 
2	Any Which Way You Can - Clint Eastwood vs. William Smith 
 
2	Appleseed 4 - Deunan Knute vs a bunch of terrorists in a collapsed 
building 
 
2	Court Jester - Danny Kaye vs Basil Rathbone 
 
2	Dark Knight Returns - Batman vs Superman 
 
2	Drunken Master II - Jackie Chan vs Ken Lo 
 
2	The Empire Strikes Back - Darth Vader vs. Luke Skywalker 
 
2	Fist of Legend - Jet Li vs "The Killing Machine" 
 
2	Highlander - MacLeod vs Kurgen 
 
2	Jackie Chan's entire career. 
 
2	The Killer - gunfight in the church 
 
2	Kitty Pride/Wolverine limited series - final fight 
 
2	Ladyhawke - Etienne Navarre (Rutger Hauer) vs. Marquet (Ken 
Hutchison), 
 
2	Suicide Squad - Batman vs. Rick Flagg 
 
2	They Live - Roddy Piper vs David Keith 
 
2	Wheels on Meals - Jackie Chan vs Bennie the Jet 
 
	A Kid from Tibet - Yeun Baio vs Yuen Wah 
 
	Ali vs. Foreman, Kinshasa, Zaire 
 
	Aliens - Ripley vs the Queen 
 
	Avengers #164-166 - Avengers vs. Count Nefaria 
 
	Batman #198 - The Batman vs. Ling 
 
	Blade of the Immortal - Manji vs Eiku Shizuma 
 
	Bob Probert (Detroit Red Wings) vs. Tie Domi (New York Rangers), 
Madison Square Garden(?), 1992(?) 
 
	Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid - The "no rules in a knife 
fight" scene 
 
	By the Sword - F Murray Abraham vs Eric Roberts 
 
	Casino Royale - final fight 
 
	Chinese Connection - Bruce vs the Japanese dojo 
 
	Daredevil - Daredevil vs Bullseye in the battle that ultimately 
left Bullseye paralysed. 
 
	DC Comics Presents (early 80s) - Superman vs. the Spectre 
 
	The Death of Electra - The fight between the revived Bullseye, 
Daredevil and Electra 
 
	Demon City Shinjuku - the hero vs the weird thing weith a mouth in 
its chest 
 
	Desperado - The "It's him!" bar room gunfight 
 
	Desert Peach (#2 or #3)  - barroom fight 
 
	Doctor Strange vs The Hulk. 
 
	Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story - fight where Bruce proves he can beat 
any man in less than 60 seconds. 
 
	Dragon Scroll - fight vs the blind demon in the forest 
 
	Dragonball Z Movie 6 - Son Goku (and Vegita) vs Metal Kooler 
 
	Dragonheart - Quaid vs Draco 
 
	Drunken Master II - Jackie Chan vs the Ax gang 
 
	Elementals - Fathom vs Electrocutinoer 
 
	Enter the Dragon - Bruce Lee vs Mr. Han 
 
	Errol Flynn vs Basil Rathbone 
 
	Escape from New York - Snake Pliskin vs. the big gladiator 
 
	Everyone Hates Fightman - Fightman vs everbody 
 
	Fantastic Four - She-Hulk vs. The Thing 
 
	Fantastic Four #134 - Luke Cage vs. the Thing 
 
	Fantastic Four 258-260 - The Thing, Johnny Storm, Sue Richards and 
Silver Surfer vs Terrax (and Dr. Doom) 
 
	Fearless Hyena - chopstick fight 
 
	Firestorm (100?) - Firestorm and friends vs. the JLA vs. the 
Suicide Squad vs. the Parasite 
 
	Full Contact - Chow Yun Fat's knife fight vs some mooks 
 
	G. I. Joe: The Movie - Sgt. Slaughter vs one of the villains (I 
forget the guy's name) 
 
	George of the Jungle - George vs a lion 
 
	Gold Digger #29 - Julia and Theodore Diggers vs. the Gneiss' 
Sentinel 
 
	Grosse Point Blank - John Cuszack vs Dan Aykroyd 
 
	Gyokin - The final duel of the two ex-buddies 
 
	Hard Boiled - gunfight in the teahouse 
 
	Hard Boiled - hospital gunfight 
 
	The Hulk (early 80s) - Hulk vs Sasquatch 
 
	Hulk #300 - Hulk vs everyone 
 
	Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom - Indiana Jones vs Indian 
Slave Master on the Conveyor Belt 
 
	JLA #14 - The assault by the heroes on Darkseid's empire 
 
	JLA (current) - JLA vs the Martians 
 
	Justice League - Batman vs. Guy Gardner "One Punch!" 
 
	Kingdom Come - final battle 
 
	LEGION - Lobo v. Vril Dox 
 
	Legion of Superheroes - the adult Legion in the 
Dominator-Khund-Earth war 
 
	Lipton's Tea commercial - David Carradine vs three thugs 
 
	Lone Wolf McQuade - Chuck Norris vs one of the Carradines 
 
	The Magnificent Seven - final fight 
 
	Micronauts #11  - Arcturus Rann vs. Baron Karza 
 
	Micronauts #12 - Acroyear vs. Shaitan 
 
	Miracleman #1-2 - Miracleman vs. Kid Miracleman 
 
	Miracleman #12-13 - Miracleman and crew vs. Kid Miracleman 
 
	Monty Python & the Holy Grail - King Arthur vs. the Black Knight 
 
	Mortal Kombat - Johnny Cage vs. Scorpion 
 
	Mortal Kombat - Liu Kang vs. Reptile 
 
	Nemesis the Warlock - Nemesis vs Torquemada 
 
	Ninja Scroll - Jubei vs Tessa 
 
	Ninja Scroll - Jubei vs Genma 
 
	Ninja Scroll - Jubei and Kagero vs Utsutsu  
 
	Predator - Arnold vs the Predator 
 
	Project A-ko (entier movie) 
 
	The Question - any number of fights 
 
	Raiders of the Lost Ark - any fight 
 
	Raiders of the Lost Ark - Indiana Jones vs Nazi Mechanic 
 
	Ranma 1/2 - Ranma vs Ryoga; after Ryoga learned the breaking point 
technique. 
 
	Ray Harryhausen - multiple fight scenes 
 
	Red Sonjia - Arnold vs. Brigitte 
 
	Reservoir Dogs - final gunfight 
 
	Return of the Dragon - Bruce Lee vs Chuck Norris 
 
	Return of the Jedi - Luke Skywalker vs Darth Vader 
 
	Rob Roy - Tim Roth's character vs Rob Roy 
 
	Robin Hood - Basil Rathbone vs. Errol Flynn 
 
	Rocky & Rocky II - Rocky vs Apollo Creed 
 
	Secret Wars - Spiderman vs the X-Men 
 
	Song of Roland - Roland's last defense 
 
	Spiderman - Spiderman vs Firelord 
 
	Spider man vs Juggernaut. 
 
	Steel Magnolias  - Sally Field vs Shirley Maclaine 
 
	The Streetfighter - any Sonny Chiba fight 
 
	Steven Segal - any film 
 
	Suicide Squad - Batman v. Bronze Tiger 
 
	Suicide Squad vs. the Justice League 
 
	Superman Annual #11 - Superman (and Wonder Woman, Batman & Robin) 
vs Mongul 
 
	Superman II - Superman vs. the Kryptonian villains 
 
	The Sword and the Sorcerer - Talon's bid for freedom after pulling 
himself off the crucifiction 
 
	Sword of Doom - The fight in the stone-walled road after the 
bokken duel 
 
	The Tick - The Tick vs Filth 
 
	Thor - Thor vs Juggernaught 
 
	Three Musketeers - Gene Kelly vs. Cardinal's Guard 
 
	The Three/Four Musketeers (1970s versions) 
 
	Transformers: The Movie - Optimus Prime vs Megatron 
 
	True Romance - Christian Slater vs Gary Oldman 
 
	Twinkle, Twinkle Lucky Stars - Samo Hung vs. Richard Norton 
 
	Willow - Madmardigan, Willow and a goat vs an army, trolls and a 
dragon 
 
	Wing Chun - Michelle Yeoh (or Khan) scene (and other movies) 
 
	X-Men #205 - Wolverine vs. Lady Deathstrike and her goons 
 
	X-Men: Days of Future Past - X-Men vs. the Sentinels 
 
	X-Men - X-Men vs the guardians of the M-krann crystal 
 
	Xena: Warrior Princess - Xena vs a gang of bounty hunters 
 
	Xena: Warrior Princess - a knock down drag out on _top_ of a crowd 
of people 
 
 
WORST 
 
2	Mortal Kombat II - all of them 
 
	Kung Fu: The Legend Continues - any Carradine fight scene 
 
	GI Joe - Cobra had a pair of twins who felt when the other was 
hit.  (I don't remember their names).  At one point, they fight each other 
by punching themselves.  Utterly inane. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 04 Dec 1997 12:47:56 -0500 
Lines: 55 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
BG>    What you describe, I think, is a little more akin to using Mechanics 
BG> (or even PS: Auto Thief) to bypass the lock system.  Now, there might 
BG> be a penalty to this, which is where the Integrity Talent would come 
BG> in. 
 
Not really.  Using a slim jim is Lockpicking; it is just a different attack 
on the door mechanism.  The only way to defeat a slim jim is to encase the 
entire mechaism in a box so that the tool cannot reach the mechanism.  It 
is an all or nothing deal, and seldom used except on the most expensive of 
cars because, well, if one locks one's only set of keys inside the only way 
in at that point is to break a window. 
 
Hotwiring the vehicle... your guess is as good as mine. 
 
Breaking the steering column lock assembly with a screwdriver, or breaking 
a window, is a Strength roll. 
 
BG>    There's another point to this, too, though.  These rules aren't 
BG> intended for just automobiles; there are also locks and other security 
BG> systems on boats, aircraft, and other vehicles as well.  (I'm trying to 
BG> imagine a group of chop-shoppers hot-wiring a 747.) 
 
Easier than you might think.  The tough part is getting the beast.  Once in 
the cockpit, assuming you know how to fly one, the rest is easy. 
 
To be suscinct, locks exist to thwart amateurs.  Professional thieves will 
find a way to bypass whatever security you can devise.  For instance, a 
local car theft ring allegedly had a slick trick: a flatbed car carrier 
with an insulated shell.  They'd pull into a lot, pick out a BMW, quickly 
hoist it into the shell.  The shell was a faraday cage, so it would block 
Lojack signals, and it was padded to shut in the sound of the alarm. 
They'd drive the truck up into New Hampshire, out of range of the Lojack 
transmitter, and chop up the car (after disconnecting the battery, thus 
power to the alarm).  I say "allegedly" because when the ring was busted a 
few years ago the truck was never recovered. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Baseball in Hero (was Re: Writing Up Yourself how good is good?) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 04 Dec 1997 12:51:55 -0500 
Lines: 28 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
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>>>>> "TB" == Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> writes: 
 
>> One does *NOT* use Hero combat to simulate a baseball game. 
 
TB> But if the system works well, you should be _able_ to and expect  
TB> semi-reasonable results. 
 
It does, and you can.  But a baseball game is not a fight, so you should 
not use the combat rules of the system.  If you do, you are not going to 
get semi-reasonable results. 
 
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Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 14:30:43 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Fight scenes 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, qts wrote: 
 
> All this talk about fight scenes leads me to a question:  
>  
> Can anyone cite a fight scene funnier than those in Braveheart which is 
> NOT deliberately funny?  
 
 
Blake's 7 was a great show plagued by the BBC's low budget effects. 
Typically, fights on the show tended to look like a bunch of out of shape 
actors pretending to shoot or hit one another. On one particular episode, 
though, (I don't remember the title) they clearly splurged for some 
stuntmen. At first, the action is an exciting surprise for B7. But 
evidently they decided to get their money's worth on those stuntmen, 
because soon enough the combatants are leaping down small cliffs for no 
particular reason. They finally got decent stuntwork on the show, and they 
didn't know how to use it. 
 
Obligatory Champions Reference: This is not unlike several beginning Hero 
players I've seen getting used to combat maneuvers. I recall one player 
who used to Brace and Set in the middle of a brawl for no reason other 
than the fact that he could. 
 
 
 
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 13:45:26 -0600 
From: Alex Rojas <rojasa@uthscsa.edu> 
Subject: RE: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
X-Sender: rojasa@arwen.uthscsa.edu 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
A couple of my favorite fight scenes: 
 
Marvel Fanfare #17 
     The Hulk vs The Blob, and Unus the Untouchable.  That was cool because 
it made Unus and the Blob to be real people, and good friends.  Plus it had 
the Irrisistable Force, and Immovable object thing going.  Too bad the Hulk 
has both :) 
 
Fantastic Four #249 and #250 
     Big fight with Gladiator, FF, Spider-Man, Captain America, and some 
X-Men/Skrull.  Really big fight, lots of damage. 
 
Squadron Supreme #12 
     It was one of the first comics I had read where some super-heroes 
died.  Very realistic super-hero combat.  I liked the whole 12 part 
mini-series. 
 
Elementals #11 
     This was a pretty mean fight, sometimes I like that they made the 
whole thing in verse, sometimes it's annoying.  The fight is pretty cool 
though. 
 
Amazing Spider-Man #269 and #270 
     Spider-Man vs Firestorm (My mind blanked out, I think that's his name. 
 The guy with the staff and he was a herald of Galactus).  It's usually 
annoying when Spider-man keeps saying, "Oh, I can't beat this guy..." and 
then goes and beats him.  But this fight was still good.  Shows what a High 
Dex will do for you :) 
 
 
Alex 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: RE: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 15:33:51 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Alex mentioned Amazing Spider-Man #269 and #270: Spidey versus Fire 
Lord. 
 
I completely agree. That was one of my favorite Spideys ever. 
 
Another good Spidey fight was against The Spot in Peter Parker the 
Spectacular Spiderman #98-100.  
 
The Spot is a portal-type teleporter with no other abilities. He makes 
lots of holes in reality all around Spidey and punches him from them 
repeatedly (think Indirect Stretching). But since he's a normal guy, 
Spidey barely even notices. Great comedy fight. 
 
A good "power stunt" use of special effects was in New Warriors #2 when 
they were fighting Terrax. 
 
Marvel Boy, the telekinetic, theorized that the colored disks that 
constantly surround Speedball, the bouncing boy, must have some mass and 
velocity associated with them. So he catches Speedball in mid-leap with 
a telekinetic entangle, and lets Speedball's disks bounce each other on 
the walls until the tension was great enough to burst the TK bubble. 
Marvel Boy then aimed the exploding Speedball and Speed-balls at Terrax, 
to great effect. 
 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:34:21 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: Mage: Introduction 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Well, I finished my adaptions of the Mage cast to Hero.  I'll post the 
heroes today, the  bad guys tomorrow. 
 
MAGE - THE HERO DISCOVERED 
 
INTRODUCTION 
 
_Mage - the Hero Discovered_ is a fantastic 15 issue Arthurian 'romance', 
written and illustrated by Matt Wagner.  Matt has stated that the idea 
behind _Mage_ was to examine the nature of the "Hero that lies within us 
all...".   
 
_Mage_ was originally published in 1984 by Comico.  Recently, it has been 
made available in a three volume set from Donning-Starblaze Graphics. 
Just this year, Wagner's long-awaited sequel, _Mage II - The Hero Defined_ 
was released by Image Comics.  I strongly recommend both series. 
 
Before proceeding further, I'd like to point out that all the information 
presented below is drawn from the original _Mage_ series.  _Mage II_ 
presents a number of concepts that, in my opinion, don't quite match up 
with impression I received while reading _Mage_.  For starters, Kevin 
seems to be physically weaker, while the bat grants him a greater range of 
powers.  There is also the matter of all the other 'heroic' incarnations 
(Hercules, Coyote, Prester John), as well as the various 'nasties'.  Of 
course, there is that face that _Mage II_ does occur a number of years 
after _Mage_ itself. 
 
THE WORLD OF MAGE 
 
The world of _Mage_ is our world.  The time is now, and as far as can be 
determined, the past histories of both our universe and the one in _Mage_ 
are the same.  Of course, this similarity is only on the surface.  
 
Central to the world of _Mage_ is an eternal struggle between the forces 
of light and dark, good and evil.  This battle has been waged many times, 
with neither side ever gaining the upper hand for long.  Central to this 
battle is a being known as The Fisher King.  The Fisher King is a living 
embodiment of all that is good in man, and is very difficult to find.  The 
forces of Darkness require the Fisher King's blood to enact a ritual to 
weaken the forces of Light for a time.  This ritual has been enacted 
before; Mirth states that China's Warring States period, the increasingly 
decadent reigns of Rome's Caesars' and the two World Wars resulted from 
this spell being cast. 
 
The city that _Mage_ take place in is never named or specified.  Much like 
Kevin himself, who is pretty much an 'everyman', the city could be 
anywhere.  The city is located in America (that much we can determine, 
thanks to the American football field and Edsel's Edsel), and I get the 
impression that it is an Eastern City.  The city looks to be rather large, 
with a subway system and a sports stadium. 
 
The Styx Casino 
The Styx is the lair of the Umbra Sprite and his sons.  It is a tower 
skyscraper, at least 20 stories in height.  The building has a casino 
located on the ground floor and keeps to a 'devilish' theme (the waitress 
all wear red costumes reminiscent of the Playboy bunny outfit). 
Internally, the Styx seems to defy the laws of physics and spatial 
relationships.  An elevator taken down opens on a twentieth floor office; 
there is an apparently bottomless pit running down the center of the 
casino, and the pit looks to lie both _within_ and _around_ an office next 
to it.  Finally, there are 'doorways' within the Styx that allow passage 
between various portions of the building with crossing the intervening 
space. 
 
THE CAST 
 
The main characters in _Mage_ are drawn primarily from Arthurian 
mythology, while almost all of the have their origins in Celtic myth. 
Here I offer a brief listing of the major and minor characters.  See the 
individual character sheets for more information. 
 
Cromm Cruich (The Worm of the Mists): Cromm Cruich is a dragon... a very 
large and fearsome dragon.  He has two forms.  The first is that of a man 
who is easily seven feet tall or more.  This form is dark skinned and 
slightly oriental looking, with long black tied into a tight braid and red 
eyes with vertical pupils.  He is exceedingly strong and can breath great 
gouts of flame.  His other form is of an immense toad-like dragon, gray 
skinned, with a short neck and a long tail.  As a dragon, he looks to be 
about 100' feet long.  In his dragon form, Cromm Cruich is served by 13 
ravens, or as he calls them, 'squires'.  Cromm Cruich's name can be 
translated as 'bloody bent one', a term he uses to describe himself.  
 
A suggested character sheet would give the human form a STR of 30, a COM 
of 8 and a PRE of 30+.  He should have at least a 12d6 EB (or a 4d6 RKA) 
with the "Beam" limitation (and possibly "Cannot half-move and attack" 
(-1/4)) and Life Support: Immune to aging.  The dragon form is... huge and 
should be built accordingly. 
 
The Fisher King: The Fisher King is described as a living embodiment of 
all that is good in mankind.  He is hard to find, for as Mirth points out 
"Think how much harder it is to notice a person's good points...", not to 
mention having the ability to change his shape.  But, regardless of what 
shape he takes, the King is always lame. 
 
Gog Magog: Gog is a giant.  He stands about 12' tall (or more) with a long 
shaggy beard and thick black hair.  He dresses in boots and a loincloth 
made from skins.  Gog Magog lives in a tunnel behind Cromm Cruich's lair 
and challenges anyone who passes to 'tumble'. 
 
A suggested character sheet should have a STR of 50+ and enough Growth to 
make him more than twice as tall as a large man.  Depending on the GM's 
desires, Gog Magog can have either several moves from the Wrestling 
Martial Art, or a number of HTH combat levels. 
 
Grackleflint: The five grackleflint bothers (Emil, Lazlo, Piet, Radu & 
Stanis) are the sons of the Umbra Sprite. 
 
Kevin Matchstick: An incarnation of the Hero, Kevin was once known as King 
Arthur. 
 
Leanhaun Sidhe: This creature is a female Faerie vampire.  They seduce men 
with their hypnotic voices and drink their blood. 
 
Marhault Ogre: This huge Faerie resident is a creature "...from Kevin's... 
other life!".  It stands at least 60' tall and looks like a shaggy-furred 
monkey with a hairless head with bright red skin.  The creature doesn't 
have much in the way of resistant defenses, as Kevin beats it into a 
bloody pulp with a length of pipe.  
 
A suggested character sheet could have a STR of 70 or more, as well as 
enough Growth to make him as tall as a football field goal post.  Its COM 
would be negligible and it should have the Physical Lim of "Doesn't 
speak". 
 
Mirth: The World Mage, Mirth is a powerful wizard and Kevin's advisor  
 
Redcap: These are short, nasty Faerie denizens that get their name from 
their habit of dipping their hats in human blood. 
 
Rhiannon's Bane: This is a huge, seemingly disembodied arm that spouts out 
of walls and ceiling of the Styx.  It has a STR of 50 or more and is 
probably best treated as a focused form of Indirect TK. 
 
The Umbra Sprite: The name literally means 'Dark Spirit'.  He is an 
incarnation of evil and a powerful sorcerer.  I didn't create a character 
sheet for the Umbra Sprite mainly because he is a "GM's special" who's 
main purpose is to summon the creatures that oppose the PCs (ie. Kevin and 
co).   
 
The Umbra Sprite is a powerful sorcerer, with the ability to summon all 
sorts of creatures from the Faerie lands to do his bidding.  He is also 
capable of casting more 'traditional' spells and is seen throwing blasts 
of energy, flying and using telekinesis to move a body about; he also 
seems to possess great physical strength .  The Sprite is fairly tall, 
with white hair and a face perpetually covered in shadow.  Originally, he 
was thin, with broad shoulders and a narrow waist.  By the end of the 
series, he is fat and bloated and never leaves his chair.  The Sprite is 
always seen dressed in a red pin-striped suit. 
 
A suggested character sheet for the Umbra Sprite would have a high STR, 
INT, EGO and PRE.  His COM is variable, depending on whether or not he has 
assumed his 'public' form.  He should have a large sorcery VPP with the 
advantages of "No Time" and "No Skill Roll".  Finally, he should have the 
Summoning Power with the "Limited Group" advantage.  For disadvantages he 
should have DF: Evil Spirit, Psych: Overconfidence (or Psych: 
Underestimates his opposition) and Psych: Hunting Mirth. 
 
MAGIC 
 
Mirth describes magic as a river, swift and restless.  Anyone who wishes 
to use magic must then dip into its depths.  The color of the river is 
then altered depending on the nature of the magic performed.  Green is 
pure magic, the color of the river before it is altered by others.  As the 
World Mage, this green magical energy flows through Mirth.  He doesn't 
have to 'dip' into it, he is the source of magic in the world.   
 
On the other hand, Mirth has this to say about the Umbra Sprite; "The 
Umbra Sprite is a powerful force.  He has learned to hold his head above 
the waters, even as he dips his foul bucket.  He sees me [Mirth] at the 
river's mouth, and he has been sending others to find us." 
 
There look to be no real rules regarding the nature of magic in the _Mage_ 
universe.  Other then green, no other colors are described (although the 
Umber Sprite's magic all seems to have a red color to it).  About the only 
constant is the use of Gestures to cast spells. 
 
FAERIES 
 
In _Mage_, faerie is a generic term for a wide variety of extradimensional 
creatures.  They hail from a connected series of planes called the 'Faerie 
Lands'.  Travel to and from the lands can be very difficult and summoning 
something from there even more so.  All Faeries are inherently magical 
creatures, but have no real set form or shape (other than a tendency for 
humanoid appearance).  About the only major rule concerning the faerie is 
that they will vanish from this world when destroyed (not necessarily 
killed).  GMs may to apply this rule when ever the faerie in question is 
reduced to -31 Stun (or 0 Body). 
 
 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:38:55 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Kevin Matchstick 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I posted this write-up to the list sometime ago, but i'm reposting it for 
completeness sake.  Note, I did rewrite some of the sheet, lowering 
Kevin's STR by a bit. 
 
KEVIN LINDBERGH MATCHSTICK 
 
Designers Notes: 
Kevin Matchstick is the primary character of Matt Wagner's fantastic 15 
issue Arthurian legend _Mage - The Hero Discovered_.  In the course of the 
series, Kevin discovers that he is an aspect of the Hero (an eternal 
ideal), "...the Pendragon who was once called Arthur..." and that he has a 
part to play in the eternal battle between darkness and light (whether he 
wants to or not).  According to Matt Wagner, this examination of the "Hero 
that lies within us all" will be continued in _Mage II - The Hero Defined_ 
and _Mage III - The Hero Denied_. 
 
In the course of the story, Kevin gains a number of unusual allies: Mirth, 
the World Mage, who first activates Kevin's power and acts as his advisor; 
Edsel, who comes bearing a baseball bat and drives her namesake; and Sean, 
who is a ghost who has forgotten he has died. 
 
Kevin is also opposed by a number of enemies: numerous redcaps (short, 
nasty creatures that dye their caps in human blood - hence the name); a 
leanhaun sidhe (an Irish 'vampire' and patron of poets); the Marhault 
Ogre; Cromm Cruich, the Worm of the Mists (a dragon); Gog Magog, a giant; 
the five Grackleflint brothers (Emil, Lazlo, Piet, Radu & Stanis) and 
their father, the Umbra Sprite. 
 
Description: 
Kevin is a big man, standing over 6 feet in height, very broad and 
strongly built.  He has black hair and a full beard.  Towards the end of 
the series, his hair has grown long enough to fall to his shoulders.  In 
Kevin's last appearance (so far), he has lost the beard and his hair falls 
past his shoulders. 
 
Kevin has no set costume per say, usually he dresses in jeans, sneakers, 
and a black t-shirt with a white, Captain Marvel-styled, lightning bolt 
emblazoned on it.  Kevin wears shirts like this *all* the time, at one 
point he had one on *under* his tuxedo.  
 
Excalibur appears as a white glowing baseball bat. 
 
Powers Notes: 
As a hero, Kevin's powers are quite basic.  He is extraordinarily strong 
and able to endure a great deal of physical abuse without suffering any 
harm.  His exact strength level was hard to determine, as he never really 
lifted anything large.  The best clue came in the panel after he defeated 
the dragon, Cromm Cruich.  Bending down, Kevin flips the dragon over using 
only one arm.  As the dragon looked to easily be 100' long (about the same 
size and mass as a Blue Whale), I decided an 65 STR seemed about right. 
 
The bat was a more difficult problem.  Making it a focused form of Hand 
Attack would lead to enormous amounts of damage potential.  Although the 
bat is a very *effective* weapon in Kevin's hands, it did have it's 
limits.  Looking at the bat's over all effect (inflicting damage on even 
the toughest of targets,) made me decide that making it a focused Armor 
Piercing advantage was the best course of action.  Note: if you feel this 
is a rules violation, then redesign it as 'x'-dice of Hand Attack, 0 END, 
at what ever power level feels right to you. 
 
Kevin is very tough.  At one point Mirth informs him that a 20 story drop 
would "... only hurt the sidewalk."  He has been run over by trains, 
fallen down elevator shafts, dropped large distances, dragged behind cars 
and otherwise survived large amounts of abuse with no real lasting 
effects.  His only real weakness is magic, especially that which affects 
the mind. 
 
Kevin's background is never explored to any degree, making him to be sort 
of an 'everyman'.  I included some likely skills based of sequences from 
the series.  GMs should fill in what they want based on their desired 
character image. 
 
"Does Not Exist (no ID)" means just that.  Kevin no longer exists in a 
legal sense.  There is no trace of him... _anywhere_. 
 
Disadvantages Notes: 
As noted, Kevin wears his trademark t-shirt _everywhere_. 
 
His heroic aura can only be seen by certain people.   They will recognize 
Kevin for what he really is, and most likely help him.  This aura is also 
easily seen by certain agents of Darkness, who will often dispose of 
anyone trying to help Kevin (as well as attacking Kevin directly). 
 
He is hunted by numerous evil creatures, which recognize his aura. 
Although Kevin destroyed the Umber Sprite and most of his followers in the 
course of "Mage", there are still other beings out there. 
 
Kevin's personality is a difficult thing to quantify.  For most of the 
book, he tries not to accept what is happening around him.  Latter, he 
tries to avoid responsibility for his actions, stating, in effect, he was 
'forced' to do them.  Eventually, he begins to accept his new life, or at 
least his mission.  To be honest, I recommend picking up the collected 
"Mage" volumes for the full insight to Kevin's character. 
 
Since I am presenting the 'post-bat' Kevin, I kept the "Unsure of self, 
bouts of self-doubt", psych lim, as he still expressed some of that.  He 
also has a dislike of killing, but has accepted that some deaths are 
necessary and unavoidable (as Mirth said "This is a war we are 
fighting...").  He is irresistible drawn to the Struggle and will 
participate, like it or not (when asked to let go of the bat, he 
responded, "You know I cannot, it is too sweet...").  On the other hand, 
his powers only serve the Struggle and won't really protect him from minor 
non-threatening injuries (like getting a splinter in his hand).  As Mirth 
put it once: "Remaining free to continue your quest would've served the 
Struggle.  Proving yourself to your cell-mates did not." 
 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		65		55 
Dex		15		15 
Con		35		50 
Body		20		20 
Int		10		0 
Ego		11		2 
Pre		15		5 
Com		12		1 
PD		40		27 
ED		30		23 
Spd		4		15 
Rec		20		0 
End		70		0 
Stun		70		0 
Char Total			213 
Power Total			216 
Total Cost			429 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
50	Armor Piercing on STR (up to 20d6), 0 END, OAF: Bat (Excalibur) 
16	1/2 END on STR, 3 END 
35	Full Damage Resistance 
10	+20 PRE, Defense Only (-1) 
2	Running: +1" (7" total / 14" noncombat), 1 END 
55	Superleap: +37" (50"/25"), 0 END 
 
2	AK: Local City 11- 
7	Climbing 14- 
3	Disguise 11- 
4	KS: Creatures of Faerie 13- 
1	TF: Ground Vehicles 
1	Lang: French 
10	Perk: Does Not Exist (no ID) 
20	CSL: +4 with HTH 
 
Disadvantages	 
100	Base 
5	DF: T-shirt (black with a white lightning bolt) 
10	DF: Heroic Aura (not conc, noticed - limited group) 
20	Hunted: Assorted agents of Darkness (varies) 
5	Phys: Powers don't work for self-gain 
20	Phys: Drawn to the Struggle 
15	Psych: Fear of Heights (vertigo) 
15	Psych: Protective of his friends and allies 
10	Psych: Unsure of self, bouts of self-doubt 
10	Psych: Suffers bouts of single-mindedness 
219	Hero Bonus 
 
(Kevin Matchstick created by Matt Wagner, character sheet created by 
Michael Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:43:04 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Mirth 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
MIRTH 
(Myrddin Auerelius Ambrosius) 
 
Designers Notes: 
Mirth is the Mage to Kevin Matchstick's Hero.  He is the World Mage, and 
the source of all the magic that flows through this world.  Mirth is also 
Merlin to Kevin's Arthur and does his best to guide Kevin as advisor and 
teacher. 
 
Mirth remembers *all* his past lives, and recognizes all of the major 
characters in the series for what they are and the roles they are to play. 
He knows that Edsel is fated to die from the moment he meets her, just 
like he knows that Kevin must take up the bat and assume the mantle of the 
hero if the current battle with the Umbre Sprite is to be won.   
 
Description: 
Mirth is of average height, with a thin but strong build.  He has black 
hair that hands down over his face in front, but is cut short in back. 
His normal costume is of a black body suit with a tank top, white leg 
wrappings and a blue serape-styled cloak.   
 
Powers Notes: 
As the World Mage, Mirth can juggle the magical energy of this world 
easily.  Since pure magic is green, and Mirth is the source off pure 
magic, all his powers have green effects, such as bubbles, flat green 
disks, green bolts of energy, etc.  His powers are virtually limitless; 
during the series he exhibits Healing, Flight, Teleportation (with a mass 
multiple), Extra-dimensional movement (on a whole car), Desolidification, 
Entangles, Instant Change (usable on others), Energy Blasts, a Triggered 
Energy Blast, Illusions, Mind Control, Force Wall, Telekinesis...  
 
One of Mirth's more useful powers is his mystical sight.  This sight warns 
him of dangerous events as they happen, both to him and people near him 
(as well as people that he should protect).  The only problem is that 'the 
Sight' can be very painful when it hits, more than once doubling Mirth 
(and Sean Knight) over in pain. 
 
Disadvantages Notes: 
As the World Mage, Mirth is very visible to those who know what to look 
for.  Thus, he is hunted by the Umbra Sprite, who believes that Mirth is 
his main opponent and should be eliminated as soon as possible. 
 
Although Mirth commands a great deal of power, true offensive powers seem 
to be very draining.  Any offensive attack he makes looks to drain Mirth's 
ability to throw any further attacks for some time.  This doesn't stop him 
from using his pool for other powers (such as defensive shields, or fixing 
Kevin's tattered clothing).  
 
Mirth is also missing his legs.  His leg wrappings allow him to walk and 
move normally (via a powerful spell), but is they are disrupted or 
damaged, his is virtually helpless. 
 
As Kevin's advisor, Mirth has a number of great responsibilities.  He is 
sworn to uphold the side of good, and is drawn to the struggle with an 
almost visible excitement.  Mirth also knows all that has happened before 
(at least, as it relates to him and Kevin), and slowly informs Kevin of 
needed facts as the situation warrants.  This infuriates Kevin who feels 
that he is being led about by Mirth, and not advised.  On the other hand, 
Mirth doesn't always remember everything he needs to in time and may miss 
a point here and there. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		13		3 
Dex		15		15 
Con		20		30 
Body		10		0 
Int		23		13 
Ego		24		28 
Pre		20		10 
Com		14		2 
PD		8		5 
ED		8		4 
Spd		4		15 
Rec		8		2 
End		50		5 
Stun		30		3 
Char Total			135 
Power Total			316 
Total Cost			451 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
75	75 Point Variable Power Pool: Sorcery 
89	VPP Control Cost: No Skill Roll Needed, No Time, Gestures (-1/4) 
 
24	Danger Sense: 14-, Any Attack, General Area (city wide), Side 
Effect: 6d6 EB  
	(stun only) (-1/2) 
30	Clairsentience: Sight and Hearing, Range 7200", Precognition, 0 
END, Linked  
	to Danger Sense (-1/2), No Conscious Control (-2) 
52	Extra-Dimensional Movement: The "Faerie Realms", 0 END, Trigger 
(if loses  
	consciousness) (+1/4) 
 
10	Eidetic Memory 
3	AK: The Faerie Lands 14- 
3	Conversation 13- 
3	Deduction 14- 
3	High Society 13- 
2	KS: History (especially of 'The Struggle') 14- 
2	KS: Magic 14- 
2	KS: Magical Creatures (aka Faeries) 14- 
2	KS: Myths and Legends 14- 
3	Oratory 13- 
3	Persuasion 13- 
5	Stealth 13- 
2	TF: Cars, Sail Craft 
3	Scholar 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
10	DF: Magic Aura (unconcealable, noticed - limited group) 
20	Hunted: The Umbra Sprite and his minions (Aspow) 14- 
15	Phys: Offensive use of his powers can be very draining 
5	Phys: No Legs 
20	Psych: "I decide what to tell you."  
20	Psych: Sworn to uphold the Good  
10	Psych: "So much to remember..." 
251	World Mage Bonus 
 
(Mirth created by Matt Wagner, Character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:45:03 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Edsel 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
EDSEL 
 
Designers Notes: 
Edsel is the Lady of the Lake to Mirth's Merlin.  She recognizes Kevin for 
who he is immediately, calling him 'my lord' and referring to herself as 
his 'most humble and loyal servant'.  At first she insists that Kevin 
should be told everything, until Mirth reminds of the danger this would 
present.  He does tell her that "when the time comes for him to know, you 
will be the cause of it!".  Unfortunately, this cause is her death. 
 
Description: 
Edsel is a young, slim and dark skinned with shoulder-length curly black 
hair.  She normally dresses in jeans, a black tank-top and purple gloves, 
boots, cap and jacket.   
 
Powers Notes: 
Edsel doesn't have an real powers.  She has a 1957 Corsair model Edsel and 
a baseball bat she keeps on the floor.  Mirth 'enchants' this weapon, 
resulting in a bright green magic baseball bat that gives Edsel power 
"...similar to a cattle-prod...".  Later, Kevin picks up the bat, breaking 
the spell and revealing the weapon to be Excalibur. 
 
Edsel's main ability is courage.  She tackles the Marhault Ogre armed with 
just her bat, fights Grackleflints, Redcaps and Leanhaun Sidhe, and is 
even ready to toe-to-toe with the Umbre Sprite himself.  As Mirth says: 
"She was so very brave this time..."  The Umbre Sprite comments: "Your 
courage grows with each life you lead...". 
 
It is apparent from Edsel's comments that she is a capable auto mechanic, 
and has fixed up her car so only she can really get it started. 
 
Disadvantages Notes: 
Since she's a minor, Edsel is pursued (to an extent) by her parents. 
Fortunately for her, Sean Knight is a Public Defender and can quietly 
loose runaway reports for her.  As a minor, there are certain places Edsel 
can't (or shouldn't) go.  A prime example is the Styx Casino. 
 
Edsel is devoted to two things, her car and Kevin.  She will leap in to 
save (or aid) him, regardless of the situation.  At one point she states: 
"It was my d--...  De-lightful pleasure.  'Nuthin like a good scrap." 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		10		0 
Dex		17		21 
Con		13		6 
Body		10		0 
Int		15		5 
Ego		13		6 
Pre		13		3 
Com		16		3 
PD		4		2 
ED		4		1 
Spd		3		3 
Rec		5		0 
End		26		0 
Stun		23		0 
Char Total			50 
Power Total			40 
Total Cost			90 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
13	+6d6 Hand Attack, 0 END, OAF: Magical baseball bat 
5	+10 Presence, Defensive only (-1) 
 
2	AK: Local City 11- 
1	Electronics 8- 
2	KS: Auto Mechanics 11- 
3	Mechanics 11- 
3	Streetwise 12- 
1	TF: Small Ground Vehicles 
1	WF: Club weapons 
4	CSL: +2 OCV with bat 
5	CSL: +1 with HTH 
 
Disadvantages	 
50+	Base 
5	Hunted, her parents (Aspow, Lim Geo, Mild) 11- 
10	Phys: Youth (she's almost 18) 
20	Psych: Devoted follower of Kevin Matchstick 
5	(15) Psych: Reckless 
0	(10) Psych: Very protective of her car 
0	Lady of the Lake Bonus 
 
(Edsel created by Matt Wagner, Character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:48:03 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Sean Knight 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
SEAN KNIGHT 
 
Designer's Notes: 
Sean is a ghost that has forgotten he has died.  He died of a gas leak in 
the late 50s in fact, but never really noticed, carrying on his life like 
he always had.  Currently, he is a public defender, and his position 
within the city's police department allows him invaluable access needed 
information in Kevin's war wit the Umbre Sprite. 
 
Description: 
Sean is tall and thin, with short blonde hair and glasses.  His typical 
clothing consists of dress pants, white shirt and tie. 
 
Powers Notes: 
Sean has a number of powers available to him due to his existence as a 
ghost.  As Mirth states: "...your mind no longer uses the normal 
electromagnetic impulses it's been used to... you have a certain amount of 
control over electrical impulses, you're somewhat of an empty battery." 
 
Thus his VPP of powers.  He can pick up a light bulb and make it light up 
At one point he breaks a lamp and puts his fingers in the empty socket, 
sending an electrical charge into his attacker.  Naturally, Sean can walk 
through walls, he can also bring someone with him, and at one point leans 
through a wall to catch someone on the other side.  He also can exude 
'fear', simple by concentration on being scary.  Finally, he has a 
tendency to wander into the faire realms without realizing it, at least a 
first.  He seems to get this power under control later in the series. 
 
Disadvantages Notes: 
As a ghost, Sean is slowly loosing control of the electrical impulses of 
his brain.  He can't remember very much about his past, and his memory 
eventually degrades to the point where he can't remember any recent events 
(unless prompted). 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		10		0 
Dex		13		9 
Con		15		10 
Body		10		0 
Int		18		8 
Ego		21		22 
Pre		10		0 
Com		10		0 
PD		4		2 
ED		4		1 
Spd		3		7 
Rec		6		2 
End		30		0 
Stun		23		0 
Char Total			61 
Power Total			357 
Total Cost			418 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
40	40 Point Variable Power Pool: Ghost Powers 
40	VPP Control Cost: No Skill Roll Needed, No Time, Limited SFX: 
	Electrical effects only (-1/2) 
150	Desolidification (includes mental powers), Invisible Power Effects 
	- Sight, Usable by one other (+1/2), 0 END 
20	STR Can Affect Solid 
11	+30 PRE, Costs END (-1/2), Fear based PRE attacks only (-1),  
	Concentrate: 1/2 DCV (-1/4) 
21	Danger Sense: 14-, Any Attack, Immediate vicinity, Side Effect: 
6d6 EB  
	(stun only) (-1/2) 
30	After Life Support: Full 
15	Extra-Dimensional Movement: The "Faerie Realms", 0 END, No 
	Conscious Control 
 
1	Perk: Lawyer 
3	Bureacratics 11- 
3	Conversation 11- 
3	Deduction 13- 
1	Gambling 8- 
3	KS: Law 13- 
3	PS: Lawyer/Public Defender 13- 
3	Oratory 11- 
3	Tactics 13- 
1	WF: Pistol 
6	SL: +2 with all PRE skills 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
10	DF: Ghost (not conc, noticed - limited group) 
20	Phys: Loosing his memory, at times can forget even the most recent 
	of events 
20	Psych: Dedicated to aiding and defending Kevin Matchstick 
15	Psych: Protective of the Innocent 
5	Psych: Not fully comfortable with his status 
248	Defender Bonus 
 
(Sean Knight created by Matt Wagner, Character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 16:57:44 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Re: RE: Waste of bandwidth Question #1 
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org" 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
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	The second series Elements #11 definitely has to be in my 
top 5.  Vortex being impaled by a telenetically thrown spike, having to 
pull himself off it, stuffing his entrails back into place, Morningstar 
being crushed under Monolith's earthen body, and Fathom reforming herself 
from puddles are highlights.  As well as Thor kicking the crap out of 
fat TK villian Floater, and getting kis arse kicked by Holocust in an  
all out slugfest. 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> 
From: "Guy Hoyle the Ineffable" <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 00:02:09 +0000 
Subject: Re: Unusual Fight Settings for Pulp Campaign 
Reply-to: ghoyle1@airmail.net 
Priority: normal 
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X-UID: 4 
 
> Date:          Thu, 4 Dec 1997 22:23:55 -0700 
> From:          Ryan J Franklin <franklir@U.Arizona.EDU> 
 
> rolling.  On trains--especially if you can leap from roof to roof of the 
> cars on a speeding train, with lots of tunnels ahead and maybe even a 
> bridge that's been blown up. 
 
Hmm. What game mechanics can I bring into play here? Climbing and DEX  
rolls are all obvious. Penalties to fight skills, surprise maneuvers?  
---------------------------------- 
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com) 
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/ 
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf 
and the PANGAEA Project! 
 
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 17:16:46 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Baseball in Hero (was Re: Writing Up Yourself how good is good?) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>  
> On 3 Dec 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>  
> > DM> I agree that the pitcher isn't just aiming at a hex. But he's not aiming 
> > DM> for the glove, either. He's aiming for the strike zone, which is about 
> > DM> 1/4 man-sized, so I'd give it a 3 (hex) + 4 (shrinking) = 7 DCV. 
> > 
> > Sigh. 
> > 
> > One does *NOT* use Hero combat to simulate a baseball game. 
>  
> But if the system works well, you should be _able_ to and expect 
> semi-reasonable results. 
 
Besides, just because it CAN be done by two simple dice rolls doesn't mean you  
can't do it like a full on combat if thats what you want. 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 17:31:53 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-- Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
>    Here's a little something that just occurred to me, and I typed it into 
> my manuscript for TUSV this morning.  I'd like to see what people think. 
> (It's been placed under Talents, for lack of a better category.) 
>  
> Locks 
>  
>    By default, every vehicle has doors that lock, and an ignition that 
> locks.  Each of these may be either a physical lock that uses a key, and 
> which requires the Lockpicking Skill to bypass, or an electronic lock that 
> uses a number combination, and which requires the Security Systems Skill to 
> get past.  In both cases the Skill Roll for overcoming the lock without the 
> key is unmodified. 
>    However, this special, optional Talent can provide penalties to the 
> Skill Roll for purposes of trying to get in, or for purposes of trying to 
> start the vehicle.  For every point spent in the Talent, those trying to 
> break in get a -1 to their Lockpicking or Security Systems Roll on one of 
> the two locks.  (If the vehicle has a computer with Skills that would 
> oppose the character trying to use Lockpicking or Security Systems, then 
> this Talent simply adds to the Skill Roll for purposes of the one lock.) 
>    Optionally, a vehicle's trunk (cargo space) may be considered a separate 
> Lock, and must be overcome separately. 
>    Note that, while the exterior, ignition, and optional trunk Locks are 
> freebies, a separate Lock must be purchased if the designer wants some 
> other level of security.  For example, a player may want the control panel 
> for the vehicle's weapons to have a lock.  Such a lock costs 2 points (per 
> lock) just to have it locked up, plus 1 point per -1 to the necessary 
> Lockpicking or Security Systems Roll. 
>  
>    My logic for the costs is this:  Even though each point is like buying a 
> Skill Level with Lockpicking (or whatever skill), which would normally cost 
> 2 points per +/-1, it seemed rather excessive to charge 2 points for just 
> one set of locks, and it didn't seem logical to charge a blanket cost for 
> all locks on the vehicle. 
>    The 2 points per additional Lock is because 1 point per +1 is only 
> available for Background Skills, so I decided to structure a Lock like a 
> Background Skill that just doesn't use a Roll. 
>    Any feedback would be welcome. 
> --- 
> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
> Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
I would put some upper limit as to how good the locks are.  It would be  
relatively cheap (especially when brought within a vehicle) to buy enough of a  
bonus to the lock talent to make it effectively impossible to crack. 
 
This was going to be one of my suggestions to the thread asking what to put in  
5th edition champions.  There are two different skills to defeat locking  
devices but nowhere is it detailed how to MAKE a lock, be it on a vehicle or  
within a base.  How much does it cost to have a combination lock on the cell  
door?  Two points per lock in the place (windows are free) is useable. 
 
One thing.  Do you have to buy the increased effectiveness of the lock  
seperatly or are all locks considered the same? 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
X-Sender: geoff@emerald.omg.org 
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:38:01 -0500 
From: geoff@omg.org (Geoff Speare) 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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>>Just a point, but a lock is only part of the system.  Anyone breaking into 
>>a car bypasses the door and ignition locks, the former with a slim jim, the 
>>latter with a screwdriver if the ignition wires are inaccessible.  The 
>>former circumvents the keyway, the latter either bypasses it entirely or 
>>breaks it off. 
> 
>   That is one part of the vehicle theft rules I'm working up that I'm 
>having trouble with.  I don't know that it really belongs with the Locks 
>talent, though I may change the name to something like "Integrity" and 
>broaden it. 
 
It seems to me that the above actions are part of the skill of breaking 
into a car (which I suppose is PS: Auto Theft; an expert lockpicker might 
not know this stuff and be stuck breaking in the hard way). I guess you 
could call this a limitation on the locks. 
 
>   There's another point to this, too, though.  These rules aren't intended 
>for just automobiles; there are also locks and other security systems on 
>boats, aircraft, and other vehicles as well.  (I'm trying to imagine a 
>group of chop-shoppers hot-wiring a 747.) 
 
I'd imagine that anyone skilled in breaking into a particular real-life 
vehicle would know ways of doing it really fast, unless the vehicle was 
engineered to be difficult to break into. I can't imagine there are too 
many 747 hot-wire artists, but I'm sure there are plenty for boats. 
 
Geoff Speare 
 
 
X-Sender: geoff@emerald.omg.org 
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:38:08 -0500 
From: geoff@omg.org (Geoff Speare) 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks 
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>>I would put some upper limit as to how good the locks are.  It would be 
>>relatively cheap (especially when brought within a vehicle) to buy enough 
>>of a 
>>bonus to the lock talent to make it effectively impossible to crack. 
 
>   I've inserted a note that this may be advisable.  Most campaigns can 
>probably do well with a limit of -5. 
 
Since it's a super-vehicle book (and the Amazing Lock-Man might have a 
car), I suppose saying "this is the real world limit" is the thing to do. 
 
Geoff Speare 
 
 
From: Egyptoid <Egyptoid@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 01:47:09 EST 
Subject: CHAR: PHOENIX - JEAN GREY 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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PHOENIX                                                                     
                                                                   
  11  STR   10   x1                                                     
  21  DEX   10   x3  
  48  CON   10   x2         Vuln: x2 Effect, Magical Attacks 
  15  BODY  10   x2         Vuln: 1.5x Effect, Mental Illusions 
  15  INT   10   x1         Psych: Addicted to Passion & Emotions 
  48  EGO   10   x2         DNPC: Scott Summers 
  19  PRE   10   x1         Psych: Alternates between Shy & Cosmically Aloof 
  23  COM   10  x.5         Secret ID: Jean Grey 
  13  PD    S5   x1 
  13  ED    C5   x1 
   5  SPD  1D10 x10 
  26  REC  S5C5  x2 
 110  END   Cx2 x.5 
  80  STUN BS2C2 x1   
 
Elemental Control: Phoenix Force (15) 
a)  Transform: Any basic element into any other, Minor, 8 dice. 
b)  Instant Change, any clothing, usable by & against others. 
 
c)  Force Field: 55 PD, 55 ED, Half-End 
d)  FTL: Usable by Others at the same time, x2560 Lightspeed 
     Trigger, Area Effect: 3 Hex gateway, Transdimensional. 
 
e)  Regeneration: 1 Body per Day, Persistent (Immortal, rises even from ashes) 
f)  Energy Blast: 16d6, Increased Max Range x25, No Range Mods. 
 
g)  Telekinesis: 60 STR, Increased Max Range x25, No Range Mods, Fine Work. 
h)  Change Environment: Weather Control, x16 Increased Area Effect, Variable 
 
i)  Life Support: Full 
j)  Transfer: Endurance, from beings, mystic power sources, solar sources, 
          and probably magic manifestatons. Into END. 8d6, 5 minute Fade. 
          Shuts off all other powers except Flight. 
(EC: all SFX are Cosmic Power) 
 
Telepathy: 16d6 
Mind Scan: 12d6, +12 to Roll. 
Luck, 2 dice 
Danger Sense, 17-, any area, (psychic, cosmic) 
 
High Society, PS: Model, SC: Astrophysics, KS: Mentalism,  
AK: Universe, Astronavigation, Persuasion, Seduction, PS: Pilot, 
SC: Parapsychology, System Ops,  
Flight Skill Levels: 3, Attacks Skill Levels: 2 Mental Skill Levels: 4 
 
Phoenix Force: When any of her EC powers are used, they suffer from 
this linked effect. She projects a raptor shaped aura of flame around 
herself.  This is cosmic flame, often wispy, but sometimes powerful 
& intense.  Normally it is merely a Change Environment from anywhere 
3 hexes or more radius, producing light & mild heat. In times of great 
stress, passion, or when pushing powers, the force can manifest as a 
Flash, of up to 8 dice or more. Under more usage, or more stress, it 
can actually cross over into being a Energy Blast, of up to 10 dice. 
It seems to limit it's own appearance to the enclosing size of the area, 
but it can be truly huge. 
 
Area       Size          Conditions      Manifest               PRE plus 
=======================#=======================================#======== 
Indoors    1 Hex       #   At Peace       CE: Light + Heat     #    4          
                       #                                       #   
Street     3 Hex Rad   #   Stress         1d6 Flash, 2d6 EB    #    8          
                       #                                       # 
Outdoors   6 Hex Rad   #   Combat         2d6 Flash, 4d6 EB    #   12          
                       #                                       # 
Flying,    9 Hex Rad   #   Life & Death   3d6 Flash, 6d6 EB    #   16          
or in Space            #    or Pushing                                         
                                                                   
To determine effects, you need to think about where she is and what's 
going on. Use both columns for PRE effects. The Manifest  & Size columns 
are cumulative, so if she were under stress outdoors, there would be 
Light, Heat, 3d6 Flash &  6d6 EB in a 10 hex radius, and her PRE would 
be plus 20. Needless to say, these powers are also all Zero End, Independent, 
No Conscious Control, Linked to her EC, and Triggered by Stress.  A 
nice GM would allow it to be Selective Fire, since she rarely toasted X-men. 
 
   Real Name: Jean Grey          Height: 5'6" Weight: 110lbs. 
   Hair: Red                     Eyes: Green 
 
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& 
 
This is my take on the Green & Gold Marvel, when she was still in her 
"I'm half Jean Grey" state of mind. I didn't feel like bothering with 
all the Accidental Changes, Shape-shift & junk associated with the Dark 
Phoenix problems. This is Phoenix how I wanted her to be, how IMHO the 
X-men thought she was, before she got all wierd and cosmic, evil and 
let's not even talk about the coccoon, Madeline Pryor, etc. etc. etc. 
you know how they can't leave a good idea alone, they gotta change 
every good character, rant, rave, grumble, grumble...remember when X 
in a title meant something...rant, rave, grumble, grumble... 
 
From: "Case" <wmpc@ix.netcom.com> 
Subject: Some adventures I'll be running in the NE Area 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 06:55:21 -0500 
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X-UID: 6 
 
 
 
    I will be running the following adventure at Total Confusion Feb 19-22, 
Andover MA.Their webpage site is: http://www.totalcon.com 
This is the email I sent to them describing the event: 
 
    I'll be running a (Dark) Champions game that I wrote 
called 'Cult of the Vivisectionist'. Maximum number of players is 6 (7 or 
more 
really gets unwieldy, and not as fun). Desired gaming experience is 
moderate to advanced. It should be stressed that people who can 'ROLE PLAY' 
(that 
is, act out a role) as opposed to 'stat play' (that is, playing a sheet of 
stats with no life) will have alot more fun. I don't mind teaching people 
CHAMPIONS, as long as they can 'act'. 
   Characters will be playing 150-200 point pre-generated 
'superagent'-quality characters (although players are encouraged to submit 
their own characters for approval). This will be a single table event, but 
it uses music for ambience- so electricity and privacy would be *GREATLY* 
apprieciated. (This event runs about 6 hours- is that a problem?) 
  Preferred time slot- Fri from 6pm to midnight 
 
   Blurb for convention booklet: 
 
     "'Cult of the Vivisectionist' by Paul Case:  ('Dark' Champions)   Set 
in the post-Christian Apocalypse of the year 2019, Dr Vivisector, an 
performance artist who dissects human victims onstage to a techno-beat, 
sets out to finally ascend from the underground and bring his Vivisectionist 
movement to 'mainstream'. 
    Not for kids, this NC-17 adventure reads like a Frank Miller graphic 
novel: sexual situations, potentially very graphic violence, techno-music, 
and religious themes all intertwine for a fast-moving 6 hour adventure." 
 
 
 
 Here's an adventure I'll be running at the end of January at Dreamation 
1998: 
 
    After weeks of exhaustive research and almost endless hours refining the 
storyline, the sequel to "Cult of the Vivisectionist" is finally done- it is 
called, "...and into the FireStarter". 
 
    Here's the blurb for the prereg booklet: 
    "...and into the FireStarter" by Paul M. Case: (Dark) Champions- Set in 
the post-Christian Apocalypse of the year 2019- FireStarter and his bike 
gang, 'The Dogs of War' are tearing up the Arizona badlands- extortion, 
murder, robbery. Nothing stops them- until they get swept up by an ancient 
evil- one that lays claim to FireStarter's pyrokenitic abilities. 
  Not for the kids, you play the villains in this NC-17 rated adventure- 
burning your candle twice as bright: Potential sexual situations, graphic 
violence, 
and surprising twists all lend them themselves to a fast paced audio-ambient 
6 
hour adventure. 
Max 6 players. 
 
Sounds cool, eh?? Alot of people really enjoyed the "Cult of the 
Vivisecionist" adventure I ran at Dexcon 6- and I still get email wondering 
about the sequel. So I get the feeling this one'll get booked up pretty 
fast! 
 
 Here's the Dreamation 1998 webpage and phone no.: 
================================== 
Double Exposure, Inc. 
Gaming the way it was meant to be! 
================================== 
http://www.io.com/~doublex/ 
(718) 881-4575 
================================== 
 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 07:35:53 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:36 PM 12/5/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote: 
>	Well, you can fly but no-one can tell you're flying, nor can they 
>even tell you've moved at all. 
 
No, no one can tell HOW you're moving.  If I have an RKA with IPE, it 
doesn't mean you don't feel the pain; the *function* of the power remains 
unchanged, merely the *mechanism* is hidden (no flash, no bang, no muzzle 
smoke). 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 07:35:55 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:55 PM 12/5/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   The only question is, just what advantage is there to Flight IPE?  I 
>mean, the real advantage of IPE is that others can't tell you're using the 
>Power.  Energy Blast with Invisible Power Effects means that you can use 
>the EB without others knowing about it, or at least being able to tell that 
>you're the one behind it.  Flight with Invisible Power Effects would mean 
>that, while it may be obvious that you're moving, others can't tell that 
>you're flying.  At least, that's how I read it. 
 
This is a little like saying "quarterbacks are useless players in football", 
contigent on you using the pre-forward pass rules.  After all, you start by 
changing part of the game, saying "I don't like Flight requiring visible 
FX", THEN make the statement that "IPE has no useful effect on Flight".  No, 
it has no useful effect on YOUR VERSION of Flight -- it has no useful effect 
because you're giving it away for free!   
 
The "canon" (if there is such a thing under the official "wishy-washy" 
company stance) rule is that, yes, Flight requires 3 sense groups for SFX. 
This is not necessarily a difficult thing to do -- Iron Man, for example, 
can be heard (roar of rockets), seen (flame flash under boots) and detected 
by thermal senses.  All those characters with "force of will" flight, 
according to the standard rules, SHOULD buy it IPE. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 07:38:08 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Power Effects 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 06:03 PM 12/5/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>        By definition, all powers (excluding mental) have Visible power 
>effects.  They can be sensed by at least three sense groups.  Am I      
>correct?  
 
Nope.  All Powers =that cost END= have Visible Power effects.  Density 
Increase may or may not be exempt from this (the wording on the Visible 
limitation implies it is). 
 
But, for example, Life Support, Armor, and Absorption don't require visible 
effects. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 06:14:43 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Unusual Fight Settings for Pulp Campaign 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 9 
 
At 12:02 AM 12/5/97 +0000, Guy Hoyle the Ineffable wrote: 
>> rolling.  On trains--especially if you can leap from roof to roof of the 
>> cars on a speeding train, with lots of tunnels ahead and maybe even a 
>> bridge that's been blown up. 
> 
>Hmm. What game mechanics can I bring into play here? Climbing and DEX  
>rolls are all obvious. Penalties to fight skills, surprise maneuvers?  
 
   This is what I currently have in TUSV on this matter (in case it helps): 
 
   Hanging Onto the Edge 
 
   Sometimes combat takes place outside the vehicle, but not away from it. 
In other words, when an enemy manages to climb up the side of your giant 
robot or jumps on the roof of your car, sometimes it's more effective to 
get out and fight him directly than to try any vehicle-based attacks 
against him.  (If nothing else, it keeps your vehicle from getting damaged 
by collateral damage from its own weapons.) 
   Two characters who are fighting while hanging on to the side of a 
vehicle are considered to be in combat while Climbing.  Each phase that a 
character is fighting while climbing, he must make a Climbing Roll to keep 
from falling off.  Any time a character is hit with an attack that does 
BODY, he must also make a Climbing Roll at -1 for every 2 pips of BODY the 
attack does (even if the character's defenses absorb all the BODY). 
   A character fighting while Climbing is at  DCV, +1 DCV for every 2 
points he makes his most recent Climbing Roll by (rounded down).  If the 
Climbing Roll is missed, the character slips, and must make a DEX Roll at 
-1 for every -1 the Climbing Roll was missed by.  If the DEX Roll is made, 
the character catches himself, but is at  DCV and may not make an attack 
that Phase.  If the DEX Roll is missed, the character falls. 
   If a character is hit by an attack with enough BODY to do Knockdown or 
Knockback, then no Climbing Roll may be attempted.  The character 
automatically and unavoidably falls.  The character may use Breakfall, 
Climbing, or any other appropriate Skill to stop the fall, but the fall 
cannot be prevented.  Of course, certain Powers such as Clinging or 
Knockback Resistance (whether natural or bought through a gadget) may be 
used to resist that Knockdown or Knockback, but it cannot modify the fall 
once it happens.  Also, in this particular situation, Density Increase and 
Growth do not resist Knockback (depending on the Special Effect, of course). 
   Of course, how difficult this is can depend on the vehicle's exterior 
design.  If it's smooth on the outside, with few hand-holds  or, worse, 
armor specifically designed to be slick  then all Climbing Rolls would 
take a penalty.  If there are a lot of hand-holds meant to be used for 
climbing, then all Climbing Rolls would get a bonus.  If the cockpit hatch 
(or whatever the operator uses to get into and out of the vehicle) opens 
downward and the characters are standing on it, then no Climbing Rolls 
would be called for; this constitutes a normal combat, though on a very 
small (and, of course, precarious) map, just as though the characters were 
on top of the vehicle. 
   Fighting on top of a vehicle is somewhat different, and rather easier. 
In such a situation, each character must make a DEX Roll every Phase to 
keep his balance, or else he falls.  If he falls, he may make a DEX Roll 
(as above, at -1 for every -1 the first DEX Roll was missed by) to grab the 
edge of the vehicle and hang on for dear life.  As above, the character is 
at half DCV and can only perform limited types of actions (such as climbing 
back up, grabbing someone's ankle to try to throw him off, and so forth). 
If a character wants to pull himself back on top of the vehicle, he must 
take a Phase and make a STR Roll; if the roll is failed, the character 
falls off the vehicle. 
   Characters on top of a vehicle also have to make a DEX Roll when they 
are hit, at -1 for every 2 BODY taken, or they will fall down (just as 
characters climbing on the side make a Climbing Roll at -1 for every 2 BODY 
taken).  All characters are at -2 OCV and DCV while fighting on a moving 
vehicle.  Lastly, all movement is halved; if a character wants to move at 
full speed, add a -1 to all DEX Rolls to keep his balance. 
   Characters may also try to leap from moving vehicle to moving vehicle as 
they fight.  To jump safely between vehicles, a character has to roll to 
hit the vehicle.  If he hits, he has landed safely.  If he misses by 1, he 
has managed to catch on to the edge of the vehicle, and is holding on to 
the side for dear life.  If he misses by 2 or more, he falls.  The operator 
of the target vehicle may realize what the character is trying to do, and 
deliberately try to maneuver out of his way by performing a "vehicular 
dodge" or a sharp turn, as described above; this may add to the vehicle's 
DCV or make the character's leap fail outright.  On the other hand, if the 
operator of either vehicle is trying to help the jumping character, a 
Control Roll (with appropriate modifiers) may be attempted as a 
complementary Roll to the jumper's Attack Roll. 
   Knockback off a moving vehicle can be fatal.  A character who falls off 
a moving vehicle (whether he was standing on top or Climbing on the side), 
roll the damage as though the vehicle had done a Move By on him (though 
obviously the vehicle wouldn't take a portion of the damage, since it's 
actually the ground doing the Move By).  At the GM's option, this may 
become Move Through damage, such as if the falling character hits something 
upright (like a telephone pole). 
   Another classic situation when fighting on moving vehicles is when the 
vehicle gets close enough to a standing object that a character on the 
vehicle strikes the object.  The classic form of this is when two 
characters are on top of a train as it passes into a tunnel, though nearly 
every type of vehicle has been used for this bit.  In this case, the 
character takes the Move Through damage of the vehicle, up to a maximum of 
1d6 for every DEF plus BODY the object has. 
 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:36:20 +0000 (GMT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> > > >40	10" Flight, Invisible Power Effects - sight, 0 END 
> > >  
> > > What does the IPE do for his flight? 
> >  
	Well, you can fly but no-one can tell you're flying, nor can they 
even tell you've moved at all. 
 
	Not sure what special effect would be able to fit that one, 
but game mechanics wise, that's what you've got. 
 
	If flying required a visable effect of glowing, sound or whatever, 
then so would running or swimming. It's default effect is that you are seen 
heard and felt to move away. 
 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Re: Unusual Fight Settings for Pulp Campaign 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:57:32 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 11 
 
Excellent rules! But I have two questions: 
 
>If a character wants to pull himself back on top of the vehicle,  
>he must take a Phase and make a STR Roll;  
 
Why a STR roll, and not a Climbing roll? 
 
>A character who falls off a moving vehicle roll the damage  
>as though the vehicle had done a Move By on him 
 
What if the vehicle is going non-combat? Have you decided on the 
non-combat move by and move through rules? 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:21:04 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Grackleflints 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 13 
 
GRACKLEFLINT 
 
Designers Notes: 
Grackleflints aren't so much a 'what' as a 'who'.  The Umbra Sprite's 
sons, there are five of them; Emil, Lazlo, Piet, Radu and Stanis.  Evil 
through and through they are deadly enemies of mankind and, in particular, 
Kevin Matchstick.  Matt Wagner has this to say about the Grackleflints: 
 
"Umbra Sprite means simply, dark spirit, but the Grackleflints are utterly 
my own creation.  In searching for a moniker for a brood born of a demon, 
I devised the term in the same way I came up with Matchstick P by 
combining common words to form a character name that was descriptive. 
Grackles are oily, squacky, nasty birds.  Flint is brittle and black P 
like their souls.  Making them featureless and white stressed the point by 
forming an opposite image.  Otherwise, there's no mythological base for 
these characters P although there are certain mentions in Native American 
lore about hideous old women with sharp, spiked elbows." 
 
Description: 
The Grackleflints look to stand about six foot even, with a thin, but 
strong, build.    Their skin is dead white, and they don't have hair, 
pupils, ears or fingernails.  Normally, the Grackleflints dress in slacks 
and black sweaters with the sleeves rolled up.  Over this they wear long, 
dark blue, trench coats and fedoras. 
 
Powers Notes: 
Each Grackleflint can do something different.  Their respective powers 
are: 
 
Lazlo: Clairvoyance.  This ability allows him do touch someone and 
determine what that creature is.   
 
Piet: Shapeshifing.  Piet uses this power to disguise himself and others. 
 
Radu: Invisibility.  Radu can make others invisible as well. 
 
Stanis: Flight. 
 
Emil: Initiative.  Emil does not blindly follow his father's lead, and 
this makes him very dangerous.  Emil also looks to be significantly 
brighter than his brothers. 
 
On top of these individual powers, the Grackleflints are very strong, 
durable, resistant to harm and fairly quick.  They also have a venomous 
spur at the base of the elbow.  The poison in this spur is *very* lethal 
and will kill a man very quickly (and painfully). 
 
Disadvantages Notes: 
The Gracs are, as a rule, evil and sadistic, taking great delight in 
causing pain and torment.  All of them (with the exception of Emil) follow 
their father blindly, not question his actions or decisions.  Their father 
also keeps close tabs on their actions and will harshly punish any one who 
commits a serious error (said punishment often putting a Grac out of 
commission for a few *days*). 
 
Aside from their unusual looks, the Gracs are highly susceptible to water. 
Radu is killed (looking almost to choke to death) after getting drenched 
with a blast of water.  Gracs also look to affected more than other 
creatures by green magic.  At times, Edsel's bat looks more effective than 
Kevin's fists. 
 
(Grackleflints created by Matt Wagner, character sheets created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:23:23 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Emil Grackleflint 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 12 
 
EMIL GRACKLEFLINT 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		35		25 
Dex		18		24 
Con		25		30 
Body		13		6 
Int		20		10 
Ego		23		26 
Pre		23		13 
Com		8		-1 
PD		10		3 
ED		10		5 
Spd		4		12 
Rec		12		0 
End		50		0 
Stun		45		1 
Char Total			154 
Power Total			242 
Total Cost			396 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
176	4d6 Body Drain, Recover 5 CP/Month (+2), Continious (+1),  
	Uncontrolled (+1/2), 0 END, Persistant, Spur must contact flesh 
	(-1/4) 
 
20	Damage Reduction: 1/2 Physical, Resistant, Stun Only (-1/2) 
6	Mental Defense: 10 DEF 
 
3	Acting 14- 
2	AK: Local City 11- 
3	Bureacratics 14- 
3	Gambling 11- 
3	High Society 14- 
2	KS: Creatures of Fairie 11- 
2	PS: Accountant 11- 
2	PS: Pit Boss 11- 
3	Stealth 13- 
3	Streetwise 14- 
3	Tactics 13- 
1	TF: Ground Vehicles 
10	CSL: +2 with HTH 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
15	DF: White skin; no ears, fingernails, hair or pupils; spurs on 
	elbows 
20	Psych: Rebellious, does not fully follow his father's lead 
15	Psych: Sadistic  
10	Psych: Considers his brothers to be incompetent fools 
15	SID: As a Grackleflint 
30	Suscept: Water, 2d6 BODY/segment 
10	Vuln: 2x STUN from 'green' magic 
10	Watched: The Umbra Sprite (MoPow) 11- 
171	Grackleflint Bonus 
 
(Emil Grackleflint created by Matt Wagner, Character sheet created by 
Michael Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:30:21 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: Lazlo Grackleflint 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 14 
 
LAZLO GRACKLEFLINT 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		35		25 
Dex		18		24 
Con		25		30 
Body		13		6 
Int		10		0 
Ego		13		6 
Pre		20		10 
Com		8		-1 
PD		10		3 
ED		10		5 
Spd		4		12 
Rec		12		0 
End		50		0 
Stun		45		1 
Char Total			122 
Power Total			272 
Total Cost			394 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
176	4d6 Body Drain, Recover 5 CP/Month (+2), Continious (+1),  
	Uncontrolled (+1/2), 0 END, Persistant, Spur must contact flesh 
	(-1/4) 
40	8d6 Telepathy, 0 END, No Range - must touch target (-1/2) 
20	Damage Reduction: 1/2 Physical, Resistant, Stun Only (-1/2) 
 
1	Acting 8- 
2	AK: Local City 11- 
3	Gambling 11- 
1	High Society 8- 
2	KS: Creatures of Fairie 11- 
2	PS: Pit Boss 11- 
3	Stealth 13- 
3	Streetwise 13- 
1	TF: Ground Vehicles 
8	CSL: +4 with Telepathy 
10	CSL: +2 with HTH 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
15	DF: White skin; no ears, fingernails, hair or pupils; spurs on 
	elbows 
20	Psych: Unquestionly loyal to their father (The Umbra Sprite) 
15	Psych: Sadistic  
15	SID: As a Grackleflint 
30	Suscept: Water, 2d6 BODY/segment 
10	Vuln: 2x STUN from 'green' magic 
10	Watched: The Umbra Sprite (MoPow) 11- 
179	Grackleflint Bonus 
 
(Lazlo Grackleflint created by Matt Wagner, Character sheet created by 
Michael Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:31:08 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Piet Grackleflint 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 16 
 
 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:34:24 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Radu Grackleflint 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 17 
 
RADU GRACKLEFLINT 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		35		25 
Dex		18		24 
Con		25		30 
Body		13		6 
Int		10		0 
Ego		13		6 
Pre		20		10 
Com		8		-1 
PD		10		3 
ED		10		5 
Spd		4		12 
Rec		12		0 
End		50		0 
Stun		45		1 
Char Total			122 
Power Total			284 
Total Cost			406 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
176	4d6 Body Drain, Recover 5 CP/Month (+2), Continious (+1),  
	Uncontrolled (+1/2), 0 END, Persistant, Spur must contact flesh 
	(-1/4) 
60	Invisibility: Sight, No Fringe, Useable by Radu and up to one 
	other (+1/2), 0 END 
20	Damage Reduction: 1/2 Physical, Resistant, Stun Only (-1/2) 
 
1	Acting 8- 
2	AK: Local City 11- 
3	Gambling 11- 
1	High Society 8- 
2	KS: Creatures of Fairie 11- 
2	PS: Pit Boss 11- 
3	Stealth 13- 
3	Streetwise 13- 
1	TF: Ground Vehicles 
10	CSL: +2 with HTH 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
15	DF: White skin; no ears, fingernails, hair or pupils; spurs on 
	elbows 
20	Psych: Unquestionly loyal to their father (The Umbra Sprite) 
15	Psych: Sadistic  
15	SID: As a Grackleflint 
30	Suscept: Water, 2d6 BODY/segment 
10	Vuln: 2x STUN from 'green' magic 
10	Watched: The Umbra Sprite (MoPow) 11- 
191	Grackleflint Bonus 
 
(Radu Grackleflint created by Matt Wagner, Character sheet created by 
Michael Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:37:53 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Radu Grackleflint 
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X-UID: 15 
 
RADU GRACKLEFLINT 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		35		25 
Dex		18		24 
Con		25		30 
Body		13		6 
Int		10		0 
Ego		13		6 
Pre		20		10 
Com		8		-1 
PD		10		3 
ED		10		5 
Spd		4		12 
Rec		12		0 
End		50		0 
Stun		45		1 
Char Total			122 
Power Total			284 
Total Cost			406 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
176	4d6 Body Drain, Recover 5 CP/Month (+2), Continious (+1),  
	Uncontrolled (+1/2), 0 END, Persistant, Spur must contact flesh 
	(-1/4) 
60	Invisibility: Sight, No Fringe, Useable by Radu and up to one 
	other (+1/2), 0 END 
20	Damage Reduction: 1/2 Physical, Resistant, Stun Only (-1/2) 
 
1	Acting 8- 
2	AK: Local City 11- 
3	Gambling 11- 
1	High Society 8- 
2	KS: Creatures of Fairie 11- 
2	PS: Pit Boss 11- 
3	Stealth 13- 
3	Streetwise 13- 
1	TF: Ground Vehicles 
10	CSL: +2 with HTH 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
15	DF: White skin; no ears, fingernails, hair or pupils; spurs on 
	elbows 
20	Psych: Unquestionly loyal to their father (The Umbra Sprite) 
15	Psych: Sadistic  
15	SID: As a Grackleflint 
30	Suscept: Water, 2d6 BODY/segment 
10	Vuln: 2x STUN from 'green' magic 
10	Watched: The Umbra Sprite (MoPow) 11- 
191	Grackleflint Bonus 
 
(Radu Grackleflint created by Matt Wagner, Character sheet created by 
Michael Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:40:51 -0800 
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger) 
Subject: Re[2]: TUSV: Locks 
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     Bob wrote, upon reading my response to his Locks idea: 
     <quote> 
     You know, sometimes I get these suggestions and feel like a real idiot 
     -- but not for the reason you probably think. 
     What you suggest was my first inclination.  Then I thought, why should 
     the design on one Lock affect any of the others?  So I wrote the  
     Talent to cover them individually. 
     But your last sentence really struck me.  There are a lot of GMs like 
     you, who might want this rule without that level of detail.  There  
     should also be an option to buy the Lockpicking/Security Systems  
     penalty for all the locks at 2 points per -1. 
     Duh. 
     But, of course, that's why I put these things before other people; one 
     man alone can't come up with everything.  
     </quote> 
      
     Glad I could be of help. 
      
     Richard 
 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:44:51 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint 
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X-UID: 18 
 
STANIS GRACKLEFLINT 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		35		25 
Dex		18		24 
Con		25		30 
Body		13		6 
Int		10		0 
Ego		13		6 
Pre		20		10 
Com		8		-1 
PD		10		3 
ED		10		5 
Spd		4		12 
Rec		12		0 
End		50		0 
Stun		45		1 
Char Total			122 
Power Total			264 
Total Cost			386 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
176	4d6 Body Drain, Recover 5 CP/Month (+2), Continious (+1),  
	Uncontrolled (+1/2), 0 END, Persistant, Spur must contact flesh	 
	(-1/4) 
40	10" Flight, Invisible Power Effects - sight, 0 END 
20	Damage Reduction: 1/2 Physical, Resistant, Stun Only (-1/2) 
 
1	Acting 8- 
2	AK: Local City 11- 
3	Gambling 11- 
1	High Society 8- 
2	KS: Creatures of Fairie 11- 
2	PS: Pit Boss 11- 
3	Stealth 13- 
3	Streetwise 13- 
1	TF: Ground Vehicles 
10	CSL: +2 with HTH 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
15	DF: White skin; no ears, fingernails, hair or pupils; spurs on 
	elbows 
20	Psych: Unquestionly loyal to their father (The Umbra Sprite) 
15	Psych: Sadistic  
15	SID: As a Grackleflint 
30	Suscept: Water, 2d6 BODY/segment 
10	Vuln: 2x STUN from 'green' magic 
10	Watched: The Umbra Sprite (MoPow) 11- 
171	Grackleflint Bonus 
 
(Stanis Grackleflint created by Matt Wagner, Character sheet created by 
Michael Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:48:32 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Leanhaun Sidhe 
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X-UID: 19 
 
LEANHAUN SIDHE 
 
Designers Notes: 
The Leanhaun Sidhe (pronounced "Lee-annan She"), is an Irish faerie.  She 
is a noted seducer of men, and drinks the blood of her victims. 
Interestingly, she is also the patron of poets, although those that are 
blessed by her tend to die young. 
 
Description: 
In _Mage_, the two Leanhaun Sidhe seen stand about 5' 6", with a lithe 
build.  Both of them look virtually identical (although we may have seen 
the same one twice), with thick, collar-length, silvery-white hair that 
fell down over their eyes.  They wore a fishnet bodysuit, a black halter 
top and gloves. 
 
Powers Notes: 
The Leanhaun Sidhe's main power is her ability to hypnotize men.  This 
power looks to require her to touch her target, since Kevin's eyes didn't 
glaze over until she laid her hand on his arm.  It seems likely that they 
use their looks and seductive skill to get their target to drop his guard, 
at which time they close in for the kill.   
 
The Leanhaun Sidhe will bite their target's neck and drain his blood once 
they have him under control.  If faced with a target they can't affect 
(like another female) they'll get physical, using their clawed hands. 
 
Disadvantages Notes: 
Two samples of a Leanhaun Sidhe's speech patterns are as follows: 
 
"So big and so broad.  Just dying to wallow in what's under the mesh. 
Dear boy, don't you see the trouble you're in?  I see you see not, in 
which case, I win." 
 
"So, a missy jumps in with weapon and spunk to save he by whom they are 
led.  Let's see how well he likes you, you meddlesome punk, with your face 
all mangled and red." 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		20		10 
Dex		18		24 
Con		20		20 
Body		10		0 
Int		15		5 
Ego		20		20 
Pre		20		10 
Com		20		5 
PD		6		2 
ED		6		2 
Spd		3		4 
Rec		8		0 
End		40		0 
Stun		30		0 
Char Total			102 
Power Total			154 
Total Cost			256 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
42	12d6 Mind Control, 0 END, Telepathic (+1/4), No Range (-1/2), Men 
	Only (-1) 
50	2d6 Body Drain, Recovers 5 CP per Day (+1 1/4), Continous (+1), 0 
	END, Must follow Grab (-1/2) 
12	1/2d6 HKA (1d6+1 w/STR), 0 END, Reduced Penetration (-1/4) 
3	LS: Immune to aging 
 
3	Acting 13- 
3	Conversation 13- 
5	Contortionist  
3	KS: Poetry and rhymes 
3	Persuasion 13- 
3	Seduction 13- 
5	Stealth 13- 
10	CSL: +2 with HTH 
12	CSL: +6 ECV with Mind Control 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
10	DF: Highly attractive  
5	DF: Speaks in rhyme 
10	Psych: Likes to toy with prey 
10	Rep: Seducer of men, blood-drinker (ext) 8- 
121	Fairie Vampire Bonus 
 
(Leanhaun Sidhe created by Matt Wagner, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:51:56 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Red Cap 
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X-UID: 21 
 
RED CAP 
 
Designers Notes: 
Red Caps are evil faerie creatures from the Scottish highlands.  They are 
usually depicted as short, stout and wizened looking and are often armed 
with a pike staff or poll-axe and wear metal boots.  Red Caps get their 
name from the habit of dipping their cloth caps in blood to dye them. 
 
Description: 
Red Caps in _Mage_ stand about three feet tall, with thin arms and legs, a 
pot belly, large lower jaws and a long nose.  Their hair is white and 
stringy.  When operating in this world, they wear dirty trousers and a 
long green coat.   
 
Powers Notes: 
Although Red Caps are very short, they weigh quite a bit.  They wear 
heavy, spiked, metal shoes and will leap feet first at their targets.  Red 
Caps also carry slings, which fire 'elf-bolts'.  They can unleash burst up 
five or more if given the chance.  Finally, there is a scene is issue 9 
which indicates that a Red Cap can control the weather to some extent. 
 
Disadvantages Notes: 
The average Red Cap's disads are pretty standard.  It should be noted that 
their metal boots pretty much prevent them from being truly stealthy.  As 
Mirth puts it: "Ssh... you can hear the scrape of their boots...". 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		20		0 
Dex		14		12 
Con		13		6 
Body		10		0 
Int		10		0 
Ego		10		0 
Pre		13		3 
Com		6		-2 
PD		6		2 
ED		6		3 
Spd		3		6 
Rec		6		0 
End		30		2 
Stun		30		8 
Char Total			40 
Power Total			151 
Total Cost			191 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
13	Density Increase: Two levels, 0 END, Persistant, Always on 
13	Shrinking: One Level, 0 END, Persistant, Always on 
	3m tall, 50kg, +10 STR, +2 PD/ED, -2 PER, +2 DCV, +1" KB 
 
33	EB: 6d6, Autofire 5, 0 END (+1), No KB, OAF: Sling 
10	HKA: 1d6, Linked to Superleap (-1/2), END 1 
3	LS: Immune to aging  
4	Superleap: +4", END 1 
60	Change Environment: Rain and dreary weather (+1), END 6 
	 
3	Shadowing 11- 
3	Tracking 11- 
1	WF: Pikestaff/poll-axe 
8	CSL: +4 OCV with Sling 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
15	DF: Short, squat, ugly man with metal boots and a red cap (conc, 
	maj) 
10	Phys: Metal boots, no stealth possible (inf, great) 
10	Psych: Casual killer 
10	Rep: Evil faeries that dip their caps in human blood (Ext) 8- 
46	Red Cap bonus 
 
(Red Caps created by Matt Wagner, character sheet created by Michael 
Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 12:18:00 -0500 
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X-UID: 22 
 
>40	10" Flight, Invisible Power Effects - sight, 0 END 
 
What does the IPE do for his flight? 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Power Effects 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:00:35 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
> ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
> >        By definition, all powers (excluding mental) have Visible power 
> >effects.  They can be sensed by at least three sense groups.  Am I      
> >correct?  
> > 
> Yes, but the current debate is based upon *what* that default effect must 
> be (esp. for Flight).  Is it a glowing field, sonic boom, and smell of 
> sulfur; or is it that you can see and hear (and smell, I suppose) the guy 
> while he is flying. 
>  
> If the guy looked like he was falling sideways, out of control, would this 
> be IPE?  'Cause it looks like he's not really flying...  (Greatest American 
> Hero, anyone?) 
>  
	Hmmm 
I don't think that's the current debate so much. 
 
What is the default? Anything that fits three senses. There is no specific 
default to any special effect in Champions or Hero system 
 
I think the debate here is more one of 
does being visable flying and obviously moving caount as visable or invisible? 
 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:03:57 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Weasel Attack!!! <weasel-patrol@otd.com> 
Subject: CHAR: Piet Grackleflint (ver 1.2) 
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Uh... looks like I missed the first time around. 
 
PIET GRACKLEFLINT 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		35		25 
Dex		18		24 
Con		25		30 
Body		13		6 
Int		10		0 
Ego		13		6 
Pre		20		10 
Com		8		-1 
PD		10		3 
ED		10		5 
Spd		4		12 
Rec		12		0 
End		50		0 
Stun		45		1 
Char Total			122 
Power Total			280 
Total Cost			402 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
176	4d6 Body Drain, Recover 5 CP/Month (+2), Continious (+1),  
	Uncontrolled (+1/2), 0 END, Persistant, Spur must contact flesh 
	(-1/4) 
56	Images: Sight and Hearing, 1" radius, -10 PER, Usable by Piet and 
	up to 4 others at the same time (+1), at Range (+1/2), 0 END, Can 
	only be used to disguise the features & voice of himself/another 
	(-1) 
20	Damage Reduction: 1/2 Physical, Resistant, Stun Only (-1/2) 
 
1	Acting 8- 
2	AK: Local City 11- 
3	Gambling 11- 
1	High Society 8- 
2	KS: Creatures of Fairie 11- 
2	PS: Pit Boss 11- 
3	Stealth 13- 
3	Streetwise 13- 
1	TF: Ground Vehicles 
10	CSL: +2 with HTH 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
15	DF: White skin; no ears, fingernails, hair or pupils; spurs on 
	elbows 
20	Psych: Unquestionly loyal to their father (The Umbra Sprite) 
15	Psych: Sadistic  
15	SID: As a Grackleflint 
30	Suscept: Water, 2d6 BODY/segment 
10	Vuln: 2x STUN from 'green' magic 
10	Watched: The Umbra Sprite (MoPow) 11- 
187	Grackleflint Bonus 
 
(Piet Grackleflint created by Matt Wagner, Character sheet created by 
Michael Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:40:22 -0800 
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger) 
Subject: Regarding the Grackleflints... 
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part 
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     Seeing Mike's version of the Grackleflints reminds me of a villain  
     team I have in my campaign.  
      
     One of the interesting aspects in the original Mage series was that  
     Kevin and crew didn't know there were five Gracks at first. IIRC, He  
     met one of them, and then when he spied a second, he assumed it was 
     still the first one. Since he knew the powers of one of them, he  
     used tactics that would have helped him against those powers. But boy 
     was he surprised when he found out they all have different powers. 
      
     This got me thinking, and creating. What would players do with  
     bad guys who seemed to have different powers every time they were  
     encountered? Thus was born the Johnny Squad. 
      
     Johnnies are clones utilizing genetic material stolen from other 
     superpowered individuals. All Johnnies look exactly the same (black 
     business suits, blond crewcuts, dark glasses), but every one has 
     a different set of powers. The Johnnies that the group have met  
     are Johnny Jetstream (with powers similar to Cannonball from the 
     New Mutants) and Johnny Haymaker (a standard brick), with nearly  
     a dozen more in the wings (like Johnnies Popgun, Transport, Void, 
     and Headache). 
      
     These clones work for the main villainous agent group in my  
     campaign: PREDATOR, and during one of the last adventures, managed 
     to steal genetic samples from two of the PCs. So it probably 
     won't be too much time before Johnny Elastic and Johnny Fleetfeet 
     show up. 
      
     Richard  
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 97 20:22:17  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Character experience 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:25:21 -0500 (EST), Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
 
> 
> 
>On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, qts wrote: 
> 
>> On Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:47:26 -0500 (EST), Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>>  
>> > 
>> >On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, qts wrote: 
>> > 
>> >> Would people agree that there is a general progression of experience 
>> >> reflected by cost in the various frameworks? 
>> >>  
>[snip] 
>> > 
>> >I disagree strongly that the frameworks represent a progression of 
>> >experience. They *might* represent such a progression, if it suited a 
>> >character's special effects, but the frameworks are more likely to be 
>> >employed to simulate effects which won't blend into one another with 
>> >experience. 
>> > 
>>  
>> Being FH oriented, I'm more interested in wielders of power rather than 
>> modelling items.  
>>  
>> Consider Lolly Pop, a cold-oriented super: to start with she has a MP 
>> with ultra slots, as she can't control her powers well enough to do 
>> more than one thing at a time. Later, she gets more control over her 
>> powers, and learns to do more than one thing at a time and thus has an 
>> EC. Later still, she gains complete mastery over her ice powers, and 
>> thus has a VPP.  
>>  
>> A side effect of this I've just realised is that it keeps the power 
>> level down 
>>  
> 
>I can see how this approach will work quite well for what you want to do. 
>My only objection was the implication that this progression might be 
>inherent in the system, which it certainly is not. 
 
Ah, I see. Perhaps I could have phrased it better, for that was not my 
intention. 
 
> Making a progression of 
>these frameworks part of your magic system, though, is entirely valid and 
>a good idea. 
 
It needs a little work, I think. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 97 20:24:05  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Dream Powers 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 01 Dec 1997 14:27:31 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>At 07:51 PM 12/1/97, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote: 
>>On Sun, 30 Nov 1997 20:46:27 -0500 (EST), ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>> 
>>> How would you simulate a character who could 'dream walk' -- 
>>>enter another character's mind through their dreams. 
>> 
>>Mental Illusions or Telepathy, Only when Target is Asleep. 
> 
>   One could also go with Extra-Dimensional Movement (as per Champions in 
>3-D). 
 
I've not read that one, but XDM UAO is a bit hairy! 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 97 20:28:06  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Fight scenes 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 4 Dec 1997 14:30:43 -0500 (EST), Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
 
> 
> 
>On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, qts wrote: 
> 
>> All this talk about fight scenes leads me to a question:  
>>  
>> Can anyone cite a fight scene funnier than those in Braveheart which is 
>> NOT deliberately funny?  
> 
> 
>Blake's 7 was a great show plagued by the BBC's low budget effects. 
>Typically, fights on the show tended to look like a bunch of out of shape 
>actors pretending to shoot or hit one another. On one particular episode, 
>though, (I don't remember the title) they clearly splurged for some 
>stuntmen. At first, the action is an exciting surprise for B7. But 
>evidently they decided to get their money's worth on those stuntmen, 
>because soon enough the combatants are leaping down small cliffs for no 
>particular reason. They finally got decent stuntwork on the show, and they 
>didn't know how to use it. 
 
I remember B7! It was an enjoyable romp. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 97 20:51:26  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:26:53 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>   Here's a little something that just occurred to me, and I typed it into 
>my manuscript for TUSV this morning.  I'd like to see what people think. 
>(It's been placed under Talents, for lack of a better category.) 
> 
>Locks 
> 
>   By default, every vehicle has doors that lock, and an ignition that 
>locks.  Each of these may be either a physical lock that uses a key, and 
>which requires the Lockpicking Skill to bypass, or an electronic lock that 
>uses a number combination, and which requires the Security Systems Skill to 
>get past.  In both cases the Skill Roll for overcoming the lock without the 
>key is unmodified. 
 
<snip> 
 
How about just modelling it as a Force Field, 0 End Persistent, Only vs 
Lockpicking (-1)? Each 1 pt of FF gives -1 on the skill roll. EG A 
vehicle with a 6 DEF lock forces the character to make his skill roll 
at -6. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:59:49 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
 
> >40	10" Flight, Invisible Power Effects - sight, 0 END 
>  
> What does the IPE do for his flight? 
 
Stanis simply lifts off into the air.  No wings, glowing trail, blazing 
aura etc, etc.  Technically, his flight sould be silent too, I forgot that 
one. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 05 Dec 1997 16:06:36 -0500 
Lines: 24 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "DM" == Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> writes: 
 
>> 40	10" Flight, Invisible Power Effects - sight, 0 END 
DM> What does the IPE do for his flight? 
 
It means the effects of his flight are not visible to normal sight. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 16:45:33 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>  
> > >40	10" Flight, Invisible Power Effects - sight, 0 END 
> >  
> > What does the IPE do for his flight? 
>  
> Stanis simply lifts off into the air.  No wings, glowing trail, blazing 
> aura etc, etc.  Technically, his flight sould be silent too, I forgot that 
> one. 
>  
 
I've seen people build Flight with IPE before, but I've never charged for 
it in any of my games. I consider the visible effect of flight to be the 
fact that you're hanging in the air. You say a power is supposed to be 
visible to at least 3 sense groups? Okay, your voice sounds like it's 
coming from above and your scent is clearly drifting down. 
 
It just seems pointless to make the power Flight different from the most 
frequent effect of the power in comics. Superman doesn't have wings or 
glow - and I always thought the TV show's wooshing was kind of dumb. Thor, 
Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Capt. Marvel, the LSH, 
etc. all have this kind of flight - the winged and glowing flyers are 
definite minorities.  
 
I realize that Champions powers aren't necessarily built to match the most 
frequent depictions of those powers in comics, but rather as the building 
blocks necessary to make just about any effects. Hence, Mind Control does 
not have Telepathy built into it, and Telepathy doesn't imply Mind 
Control. But Flight with invisible effects is where I draw the line - I 
just don't want to run games with a bunch of glowing heroes all the time. 
 
 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:04:07 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> > >40	10" Flight, Invisible Power Effects - sight, 0 END 
> >  
> > What does the IPE do for his flight? 
>  
> Stanis simply lifts off into the air.  No wings, glowing trail, blazing 
> aura etc, etc.  Technically, his flight sould be silent too, I forgot that 
> one. 
 
The discussion of Special Effects at the beginning of the Powers section 
implies pretty strongly that the glowing trail schtick is strictly 
optional; not having one isn't something you should pay extra for. 
 
Invisible Flight would imply that people can't tell he's flying, just like 
you can't tell that somebody firing an Invisible Energy Blast is launching 
an attack. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BS" == Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> writes: 
 
BS> I've seen people build Flight with IPE before, but I've never charged 
BS> for it in any of my games. I consider the visible effect of flight to 
BS> be the fact that you're hanging in the air. 
 
The fact that I am hanging in the air is not a special effect.  Whatever is 
keeping me that way is.  If you cannot detect what it is that is holding me 
aloft, I need IPE on my Flight. 
 
Or can I get IPE for free on my Energy Blast?  I mean, you can see the 
damage it does, and hear the breaking of things I hit, etc. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:08:08 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Help? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, Todd Hanson wrote: 
 
> If you make the wrestler take the 'you fall' on all of his maneuvers  
> (which wrestling SHOULD do) then he is going to end every action lying  
> on the ground and will spend every combat being GMO'd on phase 12. 
 
Body Slam, Power Bomb, Tombstone Piledriver, Backdrop, Shoulderbreaker, 
Chokeslam. There are plenty of throws available to a pro wrestler which 
don't logically entail the attacker ending up prone. 
 
 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:10:14 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re:  Re: Characteristics 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> >Cumulative? On Mind Control? Does that really belong in a paragraph 
> >allegedly describing the by-the-book rules? 
>  
>    See The Ultimate Mentalist, page 77. 
 
Can't, I've never seen a copy of said book. The contents of the Ultimate 
books really don't count as part of the "book rules" anyway, IMO. 
 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 17:12:37 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
 
> > > >40	10" Flight, Invisible Power Effects - sight, 0 END 
> > >  
> > > What does the IPE do for his flight? 
> >  
> > Stanis simply lifts off into the air.  No wings, glowing trail, blazing 
> > aura etc, etc.  Technically, his flight sould be silent too, I forgot that 
> > one. 
>  
> I've seen people build Flight with IPE before, but I've never charged for 
> it in any of my games. I consider the visible effect of flight to be the 
> fact that you're hanging in the air. You say a power is supposed to be 
> visible to at least 3 sense groups? Okay, your voice sounds like it's 
> coming from above and your scent is clearly drifting down. 
 
<shrug> All adaptions I send to the list are built according to the lowest 
common denominator.  No 'house rules' of other GM's permission powers.  I 
try and design stuff to be in accordance to the basic rules. 
  
> It just seems pointless to make the power Flight different from the most 
> frequent effect of the power in comics. Superman doesn't have wings or 
> glow - and I always thought the TV show's wooshing was kind of dumb. Thor, 
> Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Capt. Marvel, the LSH, 
> etc. all have this kind of flight - the winged and glowing flyers are 
> definite minorities.  
 
I can buy that.  But powers are used in more than Supers games, and will 
usually have all sorts of different effects.  Actually, all the other 
flyers in _Mage_ *do* have visual effects.  Mirth has his green bubbles 
and the Umbre Sprite has a glowing yellow field around his body. 
 
House rules are great since they allow the GM to custom make his world to 
fit into a certain style.  And giving flight IPE by default in a 4-color 
game doesn't sound that imbalancing. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:15:48 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Help? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Todd Hanson wrote: 
 
> > Eh. I know you don't want to get too detailed, but I have difficulty with 
> > the idea of an armdrag and a hurricarana being mechanically identical. 
>  
> Why?  The name of the maneuver means nothing, the effect is what is 
> important.  In both cases you are throwing your opponent to the mat (although 
> the hurricarana obviously uses more force, 
 
Exactly. The effects are not the same at all in this case. An armdrag is 
a low-impact weardown move; a hurricarana is a finisher. 
 
If I were building a pro-wrestler, I'd probably buy extra DCs with a 
Limitation giving an OCV penalty proportional to the number used. The DCs 
activated would simulate the magnitude of the move being used. 
 
Of course, the problem with this is that the HERO system for some reason 
fails to impose CV penalties for worn-down characters. You could rephrase 
the Limitation so that you only got the OCV penalty when using it on an 
insufficiently-hurt character, though. 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 14:41:06 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:57 AM 12/5/97 -0500, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>Excellent rules! But I have two questions: 
> 
>>If a character wants to pull himself back on top of the vehicle,  
>>he must take a Phase and make a STR Roll;  
> 
>Why a STR roll, and not a Climbing roll? 
 
   Brain failure on my part.  It should take a Phase and a STR Roll, or a 
half Phase and a Climbing Roll. 
 
>>A character who falls off a moving vehicle roll the damage  
>>as though the vehicle had done a Move By on him 
> 
>What if the vehicle is going non-combat? Have you decided on the 
>non-combat move by and move through rules? 
 
   Actually, no; I should probably make that rule into the less of Move By 
or Knockback damage, though. 
   Oh, and Move Bys and Move Throughs at noncombat speeds are handled just 
like normal Move Bys and Move Throughs, except that OCV and DCV are halved 
(or DCV determined by velocity) before any other modifiers. 
   In other words, if a character falls off a sports car going 80 miles per 
hour and slams into a telephone pole, he's going to have a really bad owie. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 14:50:56 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 04:45 PM 12/5/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>> > >40 10" Flight, Invisible Power Effects - sight, 0 END 
>> >  
>> > What does the IPE do for his flight? 
>>  
>> Stanis simply lifts off into the air.  No wings, glowing trail, blazing 
>> aura etc, etc.  Technically, his flight sould be silent too, I forgot that 
>> one. 
> 
>I've seen people build Flight with IPE before, but I've never charged for 
>it in any of my games. I consider the visible effect of flight to be the 
>fact that you're hanging in the air. You say a power is supposed to be 
>visible to at least 3 sense groups? Okay, your voice sounds like it's 
>coming from above and your scent is clearly drifting down. 
> 
>It just seems pointless to make the power Flight different from the most 
>frequent effect of the power in comics. Superman doesn't have wings or 
>glow - and I always thought the TV show's wooshing was kind of dumb. Thor, 
>Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Capt. Marvel, the LSH, 
>etc. all have this kind of flight - the winged and glowing flyers are 
>definite minorities.  
 
   The whooshing is really fairly logical and realistic.  It's part of why 
skydivers (in real life) can't speak to each other; the rushing wind is too 
loud.  (OK, that doesn't necessarily imply that people beyond the moving 
person hear the whooshing noise too.  I know there's an example of that 
being demonstrated somewhere, but I'm a little groggy today and can't think 
of it right offhand.) 
 
>I realize that Champions powers aren't necessarily built to match the most 
>frequent depictions of those powers in comics, but rather as the building 
>blocks necessary to make just about any effects. Hence, Mind Control does 
>not have Telepathy built into it, and Telepathy doesn't imply Mind 
>Control. But Flight with invisible effects is where I draw the line - I 
>just don't want to run games with a bunch of glowing heroes all the time. 
 
   Aside from the above nitpick, I'm with you, Bill. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 14:55:43 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:12 PM 12/5/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>> It just seems pointless to make the power Flight different from the most 
>> frequent effect of the power in comics. Superman doesn't have wings or 
>> glow - and I always thought the TV show's wooshing was kind of dumb. Thor, 
>> Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Capt. Marvel, the LSH, 
>> etc. all have this kind of flight - the winged and glowing flyers are 
>> definite minorities.  
> 
>I can buy that.  But powers are used in more than Supers games, and will 
>usually have all sorts of different effects.  Actually, all the other 
>flyers in _Mage_ *do* have visual effects.  Mirth has his green bubbles 
>and the Umbre Sprite has a glowing yellow field around his body. 
> 
>House rules are great since they allow the GM to custom make his world to 
>fit into a certain style.  And giving flight IPE by default in a 4-color 
>game doesn't sound that imbalancing. 
 
   I'll go along with this, to an extent -- not as a "house rule," but as 
an effect of the campaign setting.  A lot of stuff in Hero, even by 
default, depends on the campaign setting; the most obvious example is the 
layout of Everyman Skills, which vary from one setting to another. 
   So in most superhero settings, the Power Effect that would be Invisible 
with Flight IPE is being overhead; in the Mage setting, everyone has some 
kind of visible effect (like the green bubbles and the yellow field), 
meaning that IPE lets a character do this without the visible effect. 
   The only question is, just what advantage is there to Flight IPE?  I 
mean, the real advantage of IPE is that others can't tell you're using the 
Power.  Energy Blast with Invisible Power Effects means that you can use 
the EB without others knowing about it, or at least being able to tell that 
you're the one behind it.  Flight with Invisible Power Effects would mean 
that, while it may be obvious that you're moving, others can't tell that 
you're flying.  At least, that's how I read it. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 18:03:23 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Invisible Power Effects 
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org" 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
        By definition, all powers (excluding mental) have Visible power 
effects.  They can be sensed by at least three sense groups.  Am I      
correct?  
 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:28:14 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Power Effects 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
ALONE AT MIDNIGHT writes: 
>         By definition, all powers (excluding mental) have Visible power 
> effects.  They can be sensed by at least three sense groups.  Am I      
> correct?  
>  
No.  All powers (except mental) which normally cost END are visible (buying a 
power to 0 END cost does not make it invisible); I usually call this 'all 
powers which are by default persistent' to deal with things such as missile 
deflection being by default invisible.  Also, the description of density 
increase states that it is not visible (except, of course, to things which 
detect weight), and many GMs choose to assume that images is also a special 
case (i.e. the image itself is visible, but the source of the power is not). 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 18:50:30 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Power Effects 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>        By definition, all powers (excluding mental) have Visible power 
>effects.  They can be sensed by at least three sense groups.  Am I      
>correct?  
> 
Yes, but the current debate is based upon *what* that default effect must 
be (esp. for Flight).  Is it a glowing field, sonic boom, and smell of 
sulfur; or is it that you can see and hear (and smell, I suppose) the guy 
while he is flying. 
 
If the guy looked like he was falling sideways, out of control, would this 
be IPE?  'Cause it looks like he's not really flying...  (Greatest American 
Hero, anyone?) 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 19:37:03 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    The only question is, just what advantage is there to Flight IPE?  I 
> mean, the real advantage of IPE is that others can't tell you're using the 
> Power.  Energy Blast with Invisible Power Effects means that you can use 
> the EB without others knowing about it, or at least being able to tell that 
> you're the one behind it.  Flight with Invisible Power Effects would mean 
> that, while it may be obvious that you're moving, others can't tell that 
> you're flying.  At least, that's how I read it. 
 
No, as Vox said, no one can tell *how* you are flying.  Also, consider 
this, with Flight IPE, I don't have sort of FX that might give me away 
*before* I arrive on the scene, or to an observer elsewhere.  Also, 
consider this, if Stanis is using his flight power at night, or in a dark 
room, who is going to know to look up?  If I have glowing green bubbles or 
a yellow aura, people are going to spot me right away. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 21:07:06 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Power Effects 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Rook wrote: 
Incidentally, he was replying to me (Jeremiah Driscoll): 
>> Yes, but the current debate is based upon *what* that default effect must 
>> be (esp. for Flight).  Is it a glowing field, sonic boom, and smell of 
>> sulfur; or is it that you can see and hear (and smell, I suppose) the guy 
>> while he is flying. 
>>  
>> If the guy looked like he was falling sideways, out of control, would this 
>> be IPE?  'Cause it looks like he's not really flying...  (Greatest American 
>> Hero, anyone?) 
>>  
>	Hmmm 
>I don't think that's the current debate so much. 
> 
>What is the default? Anything that fits three senses. There is no specific 
>default to any special effect in Champions or Hero system 
> 
Very true.  With the exception of (maybe) Density Increase (although it's 
*possible* to do it w/o an increase in density) or Growth (usually you get 
bigger) or Shrinking (usually, Non-Shrinking Shrinking aside : ), you get 
smaller). 
But Visible Density Increase would still have to be visible to three senses. 
I guess there's a difference between SFX and Visibility, anyway. 
 
>I think the debate here is more one of 
>does being visable flying and obviously moving caount as visable or 
invisible? 
> 
Yeah, I suppose that was a poor choice of wording on my account.  I agree 
with the way you put it...  does moving through the air count as a Sight 
component for visible?  Does being able to hear the guy still count as the 
Sound component? 
That sounds like the debate. 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:53:05 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re:  Re: Characteristics 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> > >Cumulative? On Mind Control? Does that really belong in a paragraph 
> > >allegedly describing the by-the-book rules? 
> > 
> >    See The Ultimate Mentalist, page 77. 
> 
> Can't, I've never seen a copy of said book. The contents of the Ultimate 
> books really don't count as part of the "book rules" anyway, IMO. 
 
 
	Actually, they've basically become accepted as such, mostly 
because they expand on areas that were under explained and under 
fleshed-out in the BBB.  In this case, then example of a mind control that 
slowly affects it's target -- a valid SFX in the source material, but not 
doable in Hero.  Therefore, a rule is inserted into a new product to cover 
this situation.  "Core" rules, maybe not -- "book" rules, yes. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 23:19:37 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On 5 Dec 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> >>>>> "BS" == Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> writes: 
>  
> BS> I've seen people build Flight with IPE before, but I've never charged 
> BS> for it in any of my games. I consider the visible effect of flight to 
> BS> be the fact that you're hanging in the air. 
>  
> The fact that I am hanging in the air is not a special effect.  Whatever is 
> keeping me that way is.  If you cannot detect what it is that is holding me 
> aloft, I need IPE on my Flight. 
> 
The advantage in this is awfully slim. If my force of will makes me glow, 
or turns my eyes green, or makes me smell funny, then my Flight has 
visible effects, but observers still can't really tell what is holding me 
aloft.  
  
> Or can I get IPE for free on my Energy Blast?  I mean, you can see the 
> damage it does, and hear the breaking of things I hit, etc. 
 
If you have to point your arm or your weapon to fire the thing, I'd 
consider the gestures a visible effect. (I suppose you could call it IPE 
with Gestures, but why bother?) Remember the guns in the movie Logan's 
Run? They were probably the result of a low budget, but I always 
considered them relatively realistic energy weapons - there was a small 
burst of flame on the muzzle, but no visible beam.  
 
If it's clear where the source of the power is, whether a Sandman with a 
gun, Popinjay with a pointed finger, or Superman confidently floating in 
the air, I'd be willing to consider the power visible.  
 
 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 23:38:06 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> At 04:45 PM 12/5/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
[snip] 
> > 
> >It just seems pointless to make the power Flight different from the most 
> >frequent effect of the power in comics. Superman doesn't have wings or 
> >glow - and I always thought the TV show's wooshing was kind of dumb.  
 
>    The whooshing is really fairly logical and realistic.  It's part of why 
> skydivers (in real life) can't speak to each other; the rushing wind is too 
> loud.  (OK, that doesn't necessarily imply that people beyond the moving 
> person hear the whooshing noise too.  I know there's an example of that 
> being demonstrated somewhere, but I'm a little groggy today and can't think 
> of it right offhand.) 
>  
 
I'm glad you agree with me on my main point, Bob, but I'll pick this nit 
with you. I doubt the human body displaces enough air to make that loud a 
wooshing - certainly not a wooshing which can be heard hundreds of feet 
away as often happened in the old Superman TV series. Large birds can be 
heard when they flap their wings, but when they're gliding they can be 
quite silent despite their size and velocity. In fact, if somebody drops a 
piano on my head, I'm not sure I'd hear that wooshing. (I am not 
willing to test this.)  
 
A better test case might be someone on a swing. The swinger will hear the 
wind whip past his or her ears, but if the swingset isn't squeaky, I  
doubt anybody else will hear them moving. Of course, someone on a swing  
probably moves a lot slower than most Champs flyers, but I'm not sure the 
extra velocity will make that much of a difference. 
 
On a related topic, I have heard pretty convincing arguments that a 
human-sized object breaking the sound barrier would *not* cause a 
significant sonic boom - once again, because relatively little air is 
being displaced. 
 
I will gladly defer to the opinion of anyone with a more expert opinion on 
this stuff, though. 
 
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 23:47:00 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
 
[snip]> 
> > It just seems pointless to make the power Flight different from the most 
> > frequent effect of the power in comics. Superman doesn't have wings or 
> > glow - and I always thought the TV show's wooshing was kind of dumb. Thor, 
> > Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Capt. Marvel, the LSH, 
> > etc. all have this kind of flight - the winged and glowing flyers are 
> > definite minorities.  
>  
> I can buy that.  But powers are used in more than Supers games, and will 
> usually have all sorts of different effects.  Actually, all the other 
> flyers in _Mage_ *do* have visual effects.  Mirth has his green bubbles 
> and the Umbre Sprite has a glowing yellow field around his body. 
>  
> House rules are great since they allow the GM to custom make his world to 
> fit into a certain style.  And giving flight IPE by default in a 4-color 
> game doesn't sound that imbalancing. 
 
Since you point out that most flyers in _Mage_ do have visual effects, I 
can see the point to buyin IPE. While we could debate the semantics of the 
term "house rule", I think I essentially agree with you on this issue.  
 
I also think I'll check out Mage again. I've flipped through it a few 
times and never really got into it, but your write-ups have gotten me 
curious. 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 00:02:49 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:19 PM 12/5/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
> 
>On 5 Dec 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
> 
>> Or can I get IPE for free on my Energy Blast?  I mean, you can see the 
>> damage it does, and hear the breaking of things I hit, etc. 
> 
>If you have to point your arm or your weapon to fire the thing, I'd 
>consider the gestures a visible effect. (I suppose you could call it IPE 
>with Gestures, but why bother?) Remember the guns in the movie Logan's 
>Run? They were probably the result of a low budget, but I always 
>considered them relatively realistic energy weapons - there was a small 
>burst of flame on the muzzle, but no visible beam.  
> 
Okay, so these (and other firearms which are muzzle-flash suppressed, or 
silenced) would be IPE: Sight, Gestures, OAF? 
 
>If it's clear where the source of the power is, whether a Sandman with a 
>gun, Popinjay with a pointed finger, or Superman confidently floating in 
>the air, I'd be willing to consider the power visible.  
> 
I realize that you probably didn't mean it this way, but I almost thought 
you were saying all three of these could be visible *attacks*...  Actually, 
I would just about allow this.  The first two are obvious (I'm not sure who 
Popinjay is...) but the third one could be Supes (or J'onn J'onzz) using 
his heat vision on the thugs' guns...  They get super-hot, and, as long as 
Supes is up there, it's *obvious* who did it... 
 
But, actually, I still don't think this is the definition of visible.  If 
Popinjay (again, I don't know the character) simply points, and there is an 
effect, but could point from hiding, and not be discovered...  this'd be 
IPE, Gestures, as you said in another post.  Same thing with Supes, 
although w/o Gestures. 
 
I've thought about IPEs before...  In the BBB, Viper (excuse me, VIPER) 
agents had silenced/flash suppressed guns, which were IPE: Sight + Sound (I 
don't know what they *were* visible to...).  However, it mentions in the 
write-up of Firewing (Classic Enemies) that he can use his Invisible EB 
against opponents w/ Missle Deflect, and they cannot deflect it, they can't 
tell he's blasting until they get hit. 
 
These seem to be two different versions of this power.  I'm not sure which 
I *would* use (I've never had a player want this...).  Can someone give 
their interpretations, official or house rules? 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 05:16:28 +0000 
From: ORT2 <ORT2@prodigy.net> 
Reply-To: ORT2@prodigy.net 
Organization: Prodigy Internet 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Making the Speedster 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Rook wrote: 
>  
> OK; 
>     despite 13 years as a Champions GM, I've only ever made one 
> speedster, a villian in my first ever 
> game. 
>     However I've decided to try the concept as my PC for an upcoming 
> table top game. 
>  
 
Rook,  
	Gee...  for the points allowed it has been my experience that it is 
really hard to design a decent speedster.  Most of the power effects you 
described could be used.  However, the Flash running through a prism and 
being split into 7 different "personalities" seems out there.  However 
other goods ones are things like autofire punches, area effect punches 
with the limitation must be able to run into the area of attact, (both 
bought as energy blasts with the proper anount of damage and 
limitations) and perhaps desolid.   
 
	If you get one worked out I would be interested in seeing it. 
 
	Also, your Web Page looks good! 
 
	Lastly, I have tried to run a PeBM game once,  to much work for  
student (which after leaving High School 20 years I am again).  
	If you get yours off the ground, consider me as a possible 	 
	player if you come up short. 
 
Owen 
 
No signature 
 
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 23:31:59 -0600 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
Subject: Re: Help? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
> On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, Todd Hanson wrote: 
> 
> > If you make the wrestler take the 'you fall' on all of his maneuvers 
> > (which wrestling SHOULD do) then he is going to end every action lying 
> > on the ground and will spend every combat being GMO'd on phase 12. 
> 
> Body Slam, Power Bomb, Tombstone Piledriver, Backdrop, Shoulderbreaker, 
> Chokeslam. There are plenty of throws available to a pro wrestler which 
> don't logically entail the attacker ending up prone. 
 
 
Sure, there are several moves you CAN do without ending up prone, but there 
are many more which DO leave you prone.  The idea was to take a martial art 
(pro wrestling) and make it workable in a super hero campaign. Designing the 
moves to be 'realistic' would work fine in a campaign where you fought 
opponents one on one, but in a superhero campaign (where you usually fight 
another 'team' of supers), a good many of the more colorful moves would be 
out of the question because it would leave you as a sitting duck.  This 
wasn't the effect I was trying to accomplish.  I didn't want to have to 
avoid the most common wrestling moves because it would result in me being 
GMO'd before I got another action. 
 
Todd 
 
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 23:38:58 -0600 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
Subject: Re: Help? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
> If I were building a pro-wrestler, I'd probably buy extra DCs with a 
> Limitation giving an OCV penalty proportional to the number used. The DCs 
> activated would simulate the magnitude of the move being used. 
 
You're missing the point entirely.  The object wasn't to make pro wrestling as 
realistic as possible, it was to allow a character to be a colorful pro 
wrestler/superhero.  Combats are already long enough without putting in all kinds 
of unnecessary extra rules and limitations. 
 
It doesn't matter what you CALL the move - what matters is the effect.  I can say 
I'm using a headbutt or a forearm or kick to the chin - it's still my martial 
strike.  I hit him, I do damage.  If I say I'm using a bodyslam or an arm drag or a 
hurricarana, the result is still the same - I damage my opponent and put him on the 
ground.  If the special effects of the move say I should also hit the ground, then 
special effects say I hop back to my feet before anybody takes advantage of my 
position (wrestlers do it all the time) 
 
Todd 
 
 
 
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 01:12:55 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
Subject: Making the Speedster 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
OK; 
    despite 13 years as a Champions GM, I've only ever made one 
speedster, a villian in my first ever 
game. 
    However I've decided to try the concept as my PC for an upcoming 
table top game. 
 
I'm dealing with 100 points + disads, as many disads as desired. 
 
The question is what does such a character need powers wise. 
 
Obviously their's having a speed score way above campaign average. 
And the high Dex. 
I'm also thinking autofire strength. Missile Deflection. And Clinging 
with a minimum velocity limitation. 
 
    What else do I need, what else fits the concept? 
 
Is there a way to simulate someone who can run and react faster than 
light? I went out today and grabbed 
one issue each of Flash, Impulse, Quicksilver, and Velocity in order to 
get ideas. 
    Things I saw was Flash outrunning a laser. Flash using his speed to 
carry a villian in an air bubble. 
Flash running into a prism at faster than light and therefore being 
split into seven component personalties / 
people. Impulse spinning a hail of bullets into the group with wind. 
Impulse waving his hands fast enough 
to create enough wind to stop a speeding truck. 
    The other two comics didn't feature any special power stunts. They 
just provided some insight into the 
mentality. 
 
Any ideas on speedsters? 
 
 
-- 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 07:40:36 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Re: Making the Speedster 
X-VMS-To: IN%"rook@infinex.com", IN%"champ-l@omg.org" 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
	Armor or Damage Reduction, requires DEX roll, representing a super- 
dodge.  Extra SPD, only useable while Running, Teleportation, only places 
where the character could run to, Danger Sense, Lightning Calculator, 
the ever popular four-color 'molecular agitation' Desolidification or 
Dimensional/Time travel powers, HA with Range (the 'wind punch'), 
Clinging linked with Running (for running up the sides of those pesky 
sky-scrapers), Flight linked with Running (only on the surface of water), 
Detect objects that may be in your path that would give you a big 
ouchie if you bumped into them, Non-shrinking Shrinking (just because), 
Life Support (handy for breathing at Mach 3; also UAO for air pockets), 
TK (the four color 'I'll just run in circles until a big tornado picks up 
the villian'), Supress: Fire (...wow!  Captain speed ran _so_ fast he sucked 
all of the oxygen away from the fire!), Missile Deflection/Reflection, 
and lots of END.  Lots of END. 
	If your going for a four-color flavor, I'd go with a VPP.  They do 
'everything' with super-speed. 
   
	If you could punch someone so fast that no one (but the person getting 
punched) would notice, would that count as invisible power effects? 
	...and what speedster would be complete without Insta-change? 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:24:48 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
> At 11:19 PM 12/5/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
> > 
>  
> >If it's clear where the source of the power is, whether a Sandman with a 
> >gun, Popinjay with a pointed finger, or Superman confidently floating in 
> >the air, I'd be willing to consider the power visible.  
> > 
[snip] 
>  
> But, actually, I still don't think this is the definition of visible.  If 
> Popinjay (again, I don't know the character) simply points, and there is an 
> effect, but could point from hiding, and not be discovered...  this'd be 
> IPE, Gestures, as you said in another post.  Same thing with Supes, 
> although w/o Gestures. 
>  
 
Popinjay is Jay Ackroyd, a character in the Wild Cards books who can 
teleport people by pointing his finger like a gun and making a popping 
noise. Depending on how far away he was and a hearing PER roll, I suppose 
the popping noise could give him away as well. Should he still have IPE?  
 
The visible to 3 senses rule can be really constraining. Sight & Sound can 
be pretty easy, but few GM's allow the targets sense of touch as they feel 
the effect to be considered a legitimate "visible" effect. Taste is just 
plain silly in most cases, the weirder "sense groups" (Radio, etc.) can be 
tough to justify, so for the third group we're generally left with Smell. 
This means most powers stink. 
 
Should most normal guns be built with IPE because they have no visible 
beam? The muzzle flash for a handgun isn't terribly visible in daylight, 
after all. While IPE works nicely to simulate silencers, it seems absurd 
to have to buy every gun with the advantage. 
 
As somebody already mentioned, the "glowing trail for flight" paragraph in 
the special effects section certainly implies that it's an optional effect 
for the power. I think this is largely a case where what the Hero writers 
intended and what they said aren't quite the same. Yes, this is a slippery 
slope, but there are times where I choose to go with the spirit of the 
rules rather than the letter. 
 
 
From: Egyptoid <Egyptoid@aol.com> 
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:47:32 EST 
Subject: Re:  CHAR: Red Cap 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
This ain't anime!    You feelin okay? 
 
   :) 
 
ell-man 
 
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 09:59:44 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Regenerating limbs 
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org" 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
	Do characters with regeneration regenerate limbs?  If they  
can, how much would they need to heal to regenerate, lets say, an 
arm? 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 07:31:50 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re:  Re: Characteristics 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 06:10 PM 12/5/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>> >Cumulative? On Mind Control? Does that really belong in a paragraph 
>> >allegedly describing the by-the-book rules? 
>>  
>>    See The Ultimate Mentalist, page 77. 
> 
>Can't, I've never seen a copy of said book. The contents of the Ultimate 
>books really don't count as part of the "book rules" anyway, IMO. 
 
   But at least what I was citing was by *a* book.  You application of 
Armor Piercing PRE cutting PRE in half for purposes of effect, and Armor 
Piercing Mental Powers cutting EGO in half for purposes of effect, is not. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 07:38:17 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:35 AM 12/5/97 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>At 02:55 PM 12/5/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>   The only question is, just what advantage is there to Flight IPE?  I 
>>mean, the real advantage of IPE is that others can't tell you're using the 
>>Power.  Energy Blast with Invisible Power Effects means that you can use 
>>the EB without others knowing about it, or at least being able to tell that 
>>you're the one behind it.  Flight with Invisible Power Effects would mean 
>>that, while it may be obvious that you're moving, others can't tell that 
>>you're flying.  At least, that's how I read it. 
> 
>This is a little like saying "quarterbacks are useless players in football", 
>contigent on you using the pre-forward pass rules.  After all, you start by 
>changing part of the game, saying "I don't like Flight requiring visible 
>FX", THEN make the statement that "IPE has no useful effect on Flight".  No, 
>it has no useful effect on YOUR VERSION of Flight -- it has no useful effect 
>because you're giving it away for free!   
> 
>The "canon" (if there is such a thing under the official "wishy-washy" 
>company stance) rule is that, yes, Flight requires 3 sense groups for SFX. 
>This is not necessarily a difficult thing to do -- Iron Man, for example, 
>can be heard (roar of rockets), seen (flame flash under boots) and detected 
>by thermal senses.  All those characters with "force of will" flight, 
>according to the standard rules, SHOULD buy it IPE. 
 
   But that doesn't answer my question.  Apparently you misunderstood it, 
so I'll state it more specifically:  what real advantage, either combat or 
campaign oriented, does a character who flies by "force of will" have over 
one who, for example, is surrounded by little green spheres when he flies, 
especially in light of the brief discussion of Flight special effects under 
"Special Effects" in the "General Rules" section of "Powers" (HSR, p 53, 
first column, last paragraph)? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 08:03:52 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:59 AM 12/6/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
> Do characters with regeneration regenerate limbs?  If they  
>can, how much would they need to heal to regenerate, lets say, an 
>arm? 
 
   The last I saw, officially, no.  For character concepts that need this, 
I usually allow a +1/2 "House Rule" advantage, "Regrows Limbs," which can 
be applied to REC, Aid (with the Healing option), or Regeneration. 
   How much BODY needs to be healed?  As much as it took to cut off the 
limb. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 11:09:37 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
> I've thought about IPEs before...  In the BBB, Viper (excuse me, VIPER) 
> agents had silenced/flash suppressed guns, which were IPE: Sight + Sound (I 
> don't know what they *were* visible to...).  However, it mentions in the 
> write-up of Firewing (Classic Enemies) that he can use his Invisible EB 
> against opponents w/ Missle Deflect, and they cannot deflect it, they can't 
> tell he's blasting until they get hit. 
>  
> These seem to be two different versions of this power.  I'm not sure which 
> I *would* use (I've never had a player want this...).  Can someone give 
> their interpretations, official or house rules? 
 
In Dark Champions (as well as my campaigns and at least one other 
Champions book) suppressors were bought as IPE Sight (and or sound), OAF: 
Gun.  This ment they had no real muzzle flash or gunshot effect.  About 
the only thing they would be visiable to was smell (and only at close 
range). 
 
I have felt (and have used) the ruling that Blocks (and Missle 
Defelection) can't be used on things you can't see.  So someone with IPE 
punches or an EB can't have their attacks blocked by people with normal 
sight and vision.  The IPE punches would require (say...) Spatial 
Awareness while Firewings IPE EB would certainly be visible to IR vision. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 08:10:44 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Making the Speedster 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:12 AM 12/6/97 -0800, Rook wrote: 
>OK; 
>    despite 13 years as a Champions GM, I've only ever made one 
>speedster, a villian in my first ever 
>game. 
>    However I've decided to try the concept as my PC for an upcoming 
>table top game. 
> 
>I'm dealing with 100 points + disads, as many disads as desired. 
> 
>The question is what does such a character need powers wise. 
> 
>Obviously their's having a speed score way above campaign average. 
>And the high Dex. 
 
   Don't go overboard on this.  If a typical brick is 20 DEX/4 SPD, most 
types are 23/5, and martial artists are 26/6, let your speedster start no 
higher than 29/7; this will allow more points for "speedster tricks." 
 
>I'm also thinking autofire strength. Missile Deflection. And Clinging 
>with a minimum velocity limitation. 
 
   I assume that the Clinging is to simulate things like running up and 
down the side of buildings, right?  Try Flight, Only Along a Surface (which 
is typically treated as a -1/2 Limitation).  This will also allow running 
on the surface of water as well as on the ground and vertical surfaces. 
 
>    What else do I need, what else fits the concept? 
 
   Keep the actual combat speed moderate, but buy *lots* of Non-Combat 
Multiplier on that Flight. 
 
>Is there a way to simulate someone who can run and react faster than 
>light? I went out today and grabbed 
>one issue each of Flash, Impulse, Quicksilver, and Velocity in order to 
>get ideas. 
 
   Looking at speedster comics is a good idea.  I'd wait on the FTL thing, 
though; there's no real good way to work this in Champions.  (I personally 
waive the "no FTL in atmoshere" rule for Desolid characters, but that's a 
house rule.) 
 
>    Things I saw was Flash outrunning a laser. Flash using his speed to 
>carry a villian in an air bubble. 
>Flash running into a prism at faster than light and therefore being 
>split into seven component personalties / 
>people. Impulse spinning a hail of bullets into the group with wind. 
>Impulse waving his hands fast enough 
>to create enough wind to stop a speeding truck. 
 
   I can only give a suggestion for duplicating this last trick: 
Telekinesis, AE: Line, No Range, Only Away From User (-1). 
   I would recommend taking a complete pass on the prism trick.  I don't 
have access to the comic in question, but this strikes me as more of a plot 
device than a regular trick. 
 
>    The other two comics didn't feature any special power stunts. They 
>just provided some insight into the 
>mentality. 
> 
>Any ideas on speedsters? 
 
   Someone once made a collection of "Speedster Tricks," and if it hasn't 
already been posted, expect it real soon.  Personally I recommend keeping 
it on hand for experience, and just keeping your guy simple at first. 
Sure, use the Autofore STR, Missile Deflection, running on water and 
vertical surfaces, and such; there are only two other tricks I'd recommend 
for a beginning character, though. 
   One is Instant Change. 
   The other is Overall Skill Levels bought at -1: Only to Offset Time 
Penalties.  With four of these, the character can do in a single Phase a 
task that would normally take an hour. 
   Oh, and you could also ask your GM whether he prefers these Skill 
Levels, Transform, or Change Environment for the act of cleaning a room in 
the blink of an eye.  This does seem fitting for a beginning speedster. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 11:18:08 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Making the Speedster 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Rook wrote: 
 
> Obviously their's having a speed score way above campaign average. 
> And the high Dex. 
 
Some people wil argue that point.  It's not the DEX and SPD that makes 
them speedsters, its the way you use powers. 
 
> I'm also thinking autofire strength. Missile Deflection. And Clinging 
> with a minimum velocity limitation. 
 
We've bought the high speed punch affect like this: xd6 Hand Attack, STR 
does not add (-1/2), Advantage of your choice. 
 
What this means is that you select the HA dice to your desired level of 
affect.  Your base STR has no bearing on this damage level, but you still 
need to actually throw physical punches to make the atatck work.  You 
thanadd in advantages like Autofire (5 or more punhces in a split second), 
Penetrating (the punches hit so fast and so close together that *some* 
STUN will get through), or IPE: sight (you are punch faster than your 
opponent can see).   
 
Missile Deflection is fine.  Instead of Clinging just buy Flight, "Only 
along a surface" (-1/2).  This will let your run up buildings and over 
water.  
  
>     What else do I need, what else fits the concept? 
>  
> Is there a way to simulate someone who can run and react faster than 
> light? I went out today and grabbed 
 
A lot of powers with IPE: sight and Teleportation instead of Running (or 
Flight).   
 
> one issue each of Flash, Impulse, Quicksilver, and Velocity in order to 
> get ideas. 
>     Things I saw was Flash outrunning a laser. Flash using his speed to 
> carry a villian in an air bubble. 
 
Consider the former note there.  How do you out run something that is 
moving at the speed of light?  Pnce you see the laser, its hit you... 
 
The other part is TK. 
 
> Flash running into a prism at faster than light and therefore being 
> split into seven component personalties / 
> people.  
 
Uh... well... a really weird version of Duplication? 
 
> Impulse spinning a hail of bullets into the group with wind. 
 
Missile Reflection. 
 
> Impulse waving his hands fast enough 
> to create enough wind to stop a speeding truck. 
 
TK. 
 
There is also the Change Enviroment trick of "Super Speed Effects" that 
allows you to clean a room in seconds etc. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
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*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 11:25:10 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Making the Speedster 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
 
> 	Armor or Damage Reduction, requires DEX roll, representing a super- 
> dodge.   
 
Sounds good to me.  Also adding "Only if Aware of Attack" (-1/4) sounds 
good. 
 
> Extra SPD, only useable while Running,  
 
Not in my game.  I think it is generally consider very abusive to have 
Extra SPD linked to a specific power.  It also plays havoc with things 
like REC, and recovery from Stunning. 
 
> Teleportation, only places 
> where the character could run to, Danger Sense, Lightning Calculator, 
> the ever popular four-color 'molecular agitation' Desolidification or 
> Dimensional/Time travel powers, HA with Range (the 'wind punch'), 
 
All good effects. 
 
> Clinging linked with Running (for running up the sides of those pesky 
> sky-scrapers), Flight linked with Running (only on the surface of water), 
 
See several previous notes about simply buying Flight, "Only along a 
surface" (-1/2) 
 
> Detect objects that may be in your path that would give you a big 
> ouchie if you bumped into them, Non-shrinking Shrinking (just because), 
> Life Support (handy for breathing at Mach 3; also UAO for air pockets), 
 
LS is not specficily needed even if you do run at Mach 3.  The air pocket 
is part of the SFX.  Now, UAO isn't a bad idea if you intend to carry 
someone. 
 
> TK (the four color 'I'll just run in circles until a big tornado picks up 
> the villian'), Supress: Fire (...wow!  Captain speed ran _so_ fast he sucked 
> all of the oxygen away from the fire!), Missile Deflection/Reflection, 
> and lots of END.  Lots of END. 
 
> 	If you could punch someone so fast that no one (but the person getting 
> punched) would notice, would that count as invisible power effects? 
 
Yes.  And an IPE punch can't be blocked (unless your target has unusal 
senses). 
 
> 	...and what speedster would be complete without Insta-change? 
 
Yep.  
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 11:26:45 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re:  CHAR: Red Cap 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Egyptoid wrote: 
 
> This ain't anime!    You feelin okay? 
 
I feel fine. 
 
And next up (just for you!): Big Trouble in Little China! 
 
"Do things no one else can do!  See things no one else can see!" 
 
"What does this potion do again?" 
 
"Gives buzz!" 
 
"It's all in the reflexes." 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 13:27:02 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Making the Speedster 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:10 AM 12/6/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>At 01:12 AM 12/6/97 -0800, Rook wrote: 
>>Is there a way to simulate someone who can run and react faster than 
>>light? I went out today and grabbed 
>>one issue each of Flash, Impulse, Quicksilver, and Velocity in order to 
>>get ideas. 
> 
>   Looking at speedster comics is a good idea.  I'd wait on the FTL thing, 
>though; there's no real good way to work this in Champions.  (I personally 
>waive the "no FTL in atmoshere" rule for Desolid characters, but that's a 
>house rule.) 
> 
Plus, if you're using the comics as the basis (Wally West, Flash, at 
least), you should probably start off slower (say, Mach 1) and work your 
way up.  Wally didn't do that Speed Force stuff for awhile... 
 
>>    Things I saw was Flash outrunning a laser. Flash using his speed to 
>>carry a villian in an air bubble. 
>>Flash running into a prism at faster than light and therefore being 
>>split into seven component personalties / 
>>people. 
> 
>   I would recommend taking a complete pass on the prism trick.  I don't 
>have access to the comic in question, but this strikes me as more of a plot 
>device than a regular trick. 
> 
Well, Wally was fighting the Mirror Master, who uses a *lot* of light 
*tricks*...  It may well have been a plot device, but it wasn't even one 
that Wally had control over... it was set up by Mirror Master (McCullough?). 
 
>>    The other two comics didn't feature any special power stunts. They 
>>just provided some insight into the 
>>mentality. 
>> 
It was my impression that Quiksilver doesn't *do* a lot of stunts...  The 
only comic I've seen with him lately was a Thunderbolts issue, and I think 
he just did the "run around punching really fast" trick. 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 13:32:58 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Making the Speedster 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:18 AM 12/6/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Rook wrote: 
>> Is there a way to simulate someone who can run and react faster than 
>> light? I went out today and grabbed 
> 
>A lot of powers with IPE: sight and Teleportation instead of Running (or 
>Flight).   
> 
High NCM movement. 
 
>> one issue each of Flash, Impulse, Quicksilver, and Velocity in order to 
>> get ideas. 
>>     Things I saw was Flash outrunning a laser. Flash using his speed to 
>> carry a villian in an air bubble. 
> 
>Consider the former note there.  How do you out run something that is 
>moving at the speed of light?  Pnce you see the laser, its hit you... 
> 
Or this could be SFX.  Or you might use the Seeking Advantage that someone 
came up with on the list.  Or it was all some sort of Image that Mirror 
Master came up with. 
 
>The other part is TK. 
> 
>> Flash running into a prism at faster than light and therefore being 
>> split into seven component personalties / 
>> people.  
> 
>Uh... well... a really weird version of Duplication? 
> 
Probably bought by the Mirror Master, instead of Flash? 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 13:36:35 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Making the Speedster 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:25 AM 12/6/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>> Teleportation, only places 
>> where the character could run to, Danger Sense, Lightning Calculator, 
>> the ever popular four-color 'molecular agitation' Desolidification or 
>> Dimensional/Time travel powers, HA with Range (the 'wind punch'), 
> 
>All good effects. 
> 
Even HA with Range?  Would you require him to buy it "STR does not add," 
like the HA power you mentioned in a previous post?  If so, why not just EB 
(Physical), defined as a 'wind punch'? 
 
>> Clinging linked with Running (for running up the sides of those pesky 
>> sky-scrapers), Flight linked with Running (only on the surface of water), 
> 
>See several previous notes about simply buying Flight, "Only along a 
>surface" (-1/2) 
> 
How would one Link Flight with Running, anyway? 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 14:13:23 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Making the Speedster 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
> >> Teleportation, only places 
> >> where the character could run to, Danger Sense, Lightning Calculator, 
> >> the ever popular four-color 'molecular agitation' Desolidification or 
> >> Dimensional/Time travel powers, HA with Range (the 'wind punch'), 
> > 
> >All good effects. 
> > 
> Even HA with Range?  Would you require him to buy it "STR does not add," 
> like the HA power you mentioned in a previous post?  If so, why not just EB 
> (Physical), defined as a 'wind punch'? 
 
Oops.  Sort of missed that.  Yeah, a wind punch should just be a nornal EB 
(physical).  I might even require Reduced by Range (an maybe Gestures). 
  
> >> Clinging linked with Running (for running up the sides of those pesky 
> >> sky-scrapers), Flight linked with Running (only on the surface of water), 
> > 
> >See several previous notes about simply buying Flight, "Only along a 
> >surface" (-1/2) 
> > 
> How would one Link Flight with Running, anyway? 
 
Uh... no real clue there.  
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 12:23:40 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> [snip] 
> > > 
> > >It just seems pointless to make the power Flight different from the most 
> > >frequent effect of the power in comics. Superman doesn't have wings or 
> > >glow - and I always thought the TV show's wooshing was kind of dumb. 
> 
> >    The whooshing is really fairly logical and realistic.  It's part of why 
> > skydivers (in real life) can't speak to each other; the rushing wind is too 
> > loud.  (OK, that doesn't necessarily imply that people beyond the moving 
> > person hear the whooshing noise too.  I know there's an example of that 
> > being demonstrated somewhere, but I'm a little groggy today and can't think 
> > of it right offhand.) 
> > 
> 
> I'm glad you agree with me on my main point, Bob, but I'll pick this nit 
> with you. I doubt the human body displaces enough air to make that loud a 
> wooshing - certainly not a wooshing which can be heard hundreds of feet 
> away as often happened in the old Superman TV series. Large birds can be 
 
    However what if you're moving as fast as Samaritan (Astro City) does.He can 
cover the globe in seconds. 
 
> On a related topic, I have heard pretty convincing arguments that a 
> human-sized object breaking the sound barrier would *not* cause a 
> significant sonic boom - once again, because relatively little air is 
> being displaced. 
 
    This may be the answer to my question above. Or maybe not. 
 
 
-- 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 12:27:23 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
Subject: Re: Making the Speedster 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> > OK; 
> >     despite 13 years as a Champions GM, I've only ever made one 
> > speedster, a villian in my first ever 
> > game. 
> >     However I've decided to try the concept as my PC for an upcoming 
> > table top game. 
> > 
> 
> Rook, 
>         Gee...  for the points allowed it has been my experience that it is 
> really hard to design a decent speedster.  Most of the power effects you 
 
    Yes. I agree on that. It's my experience that lower points makes a 2 
dimensional character,but I've yet to convince the others of this; despite the 
evidence of the BBB. Well, when it comes my 
turn to GM that will change. 
    But unfortunatly I have to work with what I've got. 
 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 12:38:57 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> The visible to 3 senses rule can be really constraining. Sight & Sound can 
> be pretty easy, but few GM's allow the targets sense of touch as they feel 
> the effect to be considered a legitimate "visible" effect. Taste is just 
> plain silly in most cases, the weirder "sense groups" (Radio, etc.) can be 
> tough to justify, so for the third group we're generally left with Smell. 
> This means most powers stink. 
> 
 
    Actually, I think touch is totally valid.After all, mental blasts aren't felt 
to touch. I could make a power that affects you physically but 
is not felt by the nervous system. Like say, a drug. 
Or I could fly right past you at mach-345 and not create a single drift of wind 
to ruffle your hair... 
 
So invisible to touch can be made to make sense, therefore, it's justifiable as 
one of the three sense groups. 
 
    However, I'd had to have to figure out the three sense groups for my spider 
clinging... 
 
> Should most normal guns be built with IPE because they have no visible 
> beam? The muzzle flash for a handgun isn't terribly visible in daylight, 
> after all. While IPE works nicely to simulate silencers, it seems absurd 
> to have to buy every gun with the advantage. 
 
And if just pointing a finger is not valid for sight (which in my opinion it is 
valid) then many guns could 
be invisible to sight. When I shot M-16's in the military I never saw a flash or 
saw the bullet. 
    However I did hear, smell, and as either target or shooter I would've felt 
it. 
So I guess that's three right there. But if not target or shooter, I would have 
had only two groups unless I 
counted pointing the gun as sight. 
    Considering how often someone runs in and says "Freeze, I've got a gun!" and 
everyone SEES the gun 
and freezes, I'd say it's visably obvious the guy with a gun has an attack 
power... :) 
 
-- 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 12:40:28 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>         Do characters with regeneration regenerate limbs?  If they 
> can, how much would they need to heal to regenerate, lets say, an 
> arm? 
 
     That depends on the special effect of the regeneration. In most 
cases I 
think the answer is yes. 
    As to how much time? well, how much body damage was losing the limb? 
That's 
how much. 
 
-- 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 12:49:27 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> I have felt (and have used) the ruling that Blocks (and Missle 
> Defelection) can't be used on things you can't see.  So someone with IPE 
> punches or an EB can't have their attacks blocked by people with normal 
> sight and vision.  The IPE punches would require (say...) Spatial 
> Awareness while Firewings IPE EB would certainly be visible to IR vision. 
 
    This should probably be based on special effect. If missile deflection is an 
automatic 
effect of a character's defensive field, like say a whirlwind, gravity, or 
magnetic field, then they 
would not need to see the attack to block it. 
 
    In issue 29 of Impulse he deflects a hail of hundreds of bullets coming from 
all directions by creating a 
whirlwind pushing down. In effect he reflected all the bullets down. It wasn't 
like a Force Field, it was 
missile deflection. He sat there for a moment and debated to himself the best 
direction to send all the 
bullets. He chose down to eliminate having any innocents (sp?) get hurt. Now, he 
certainly didn't see any 
of the bullets coming from behind him until he began to spin. 
 
-- 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 15:53:43 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net 
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
Subject: Re: Making the Speedster 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
An effect I always liked is a physical EB with limitation Only vs targets 
you could run to and suffers enviormental effects of passing through hexes 
to target (such as damage sheilds, AE attacks "in the way" etc) Special 
effect of running up to hte target punching or striking them in some way and 
running back to where you where in an intant or if you make a half move 
before using your "EB" you ran up, struck and returned to your new posistion.  
 
 
 
I know violence doesn't solve all problems... 
	But it sure feels good! 
		Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 16:06:56 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:49 PM 12/6/97 -0800, Rook wrote: 
[This was Michael Surbrook:] 
>> I have felt (and have used) the ruling that Blocks (and Missle 
>> Defelection) can't be used on things you can't see.  So someone with IPE 
>> punches or an EB can't have their attacks blocked by people with normal 
>> sight and vision.  The IPE punches would require (say...) Spatial 
>> Awareness while Firewings IPE EB would certainly be visible to IR vision. 
> 
>    This should probably be based on special effect. If missile deflection 
is an 
>automatic 
>effect of a character's defensive field, like say a whirlwind, gravity, or 
>magnetic field, then they 
>would not need to see the attack to block it. 
> 
He'd just have to be aware of it...  if he saw the sniper aiming at him, he 
could activate the power, but he'd have to do it continuously, as he 
doesn't know exactly *when* the attack is coming, especially since he might 
not have any other clues, either (if it's silenced). 
 
>    In issue 29 of Impulse he deflects a hail of hundreds of bullets 
coming from 
>all directions by creating a 
>whirlwind pushing down. In effect he reflected all the bullets down. It 
wasn't 
>like a Force Field, it was 
>missile deflection. He sat there for a moment and debated to himself the best 
>direction to send all the 
>bullets. He chose down to eliminate having any innocents (sp?) get hurt. 
Now, he 
>certainly didn't see any 
>of the bullets coming from behind him until he began to spin. 
> 
Well, Ihaven't seen this issue at all...  but, from what I know of Impulse, 
he probably *did* sense (not necessarily *see*) these attacks.  He moves a 
*lot* faster than the average man, or even the average Champions speedster. 
 The kid beats most console or computer games in less than a minute. 
Regardless, he would've had to know that the bullets were coming in order 
to deflect them. 
 
DC speedsters are *powerful*...  really powerful.  Any of them are *well* 
beyond 250 point range. 
 
- Jerry 
 
From: "Matt Korth" <korthmat@cps.msu.edu> 
Organization: I don't think so, Tim. 
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 17:41:00 -0400 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> A) John Cuszack, Dan Aykroyd.  "Grosse Point Blank"  I enjoyed the whole 
> movie, especially the gunfight at the end, I've never pictured Aykroyd as 
> an assassin before. 
 
"Will there be meetings?" 
"Of course!" 
"No meetings!"  *blamblamblam* 
 
There was also the bit in the Ultimart between Cusack's character and the  
Basque assassin... They're sitting there, blazing away at each other, the  
aisles are getting all shot up, the display cases get shattered, the clerk  
keeps calmly playing his video game... 
 
> - Jerry 
>  
> Who has just realized he's caught up on his e-mail now...  : D 
 
Lucky you... I still have 80 or so to go (out of nearly 500, NOT counting  
the bounce messages from a few days ago...thank *God* for procmail...).   
Did I mention that that's just from this list? :)  All I can say is, exams  
suck. 
-- 
korthmat@cps.msu.edu   http://www.cps.msu.edu/~korthmat 
*** People who send me UBE/UCE will be crucified. *** 
"Believe me, Mike, I calculated the odds of this succeeding 
versus the odds that I was doing something incredibly stupid... 
and I went ahead anyway."  --Crow, _MST3K: The Movie_ 
 
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 17:20:17 EST 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 97-12-06 12:14:44 EST, you write: 
 
<< But that doesn't answer my question.  Apparently you misunderstood it, 
 so I'll state it more specifically:  what real advantage, either combat or 
 campaign oriented, does a character who flies by "force of will" have over 
 one who, for example, is surrounded by little green spheres when he flies, 
 especially in light of the brief discussion of Flight special effects under 
 "Special Effects" in the "General Rules" section of "Powers" (HSR, p 53, 
 first column, last paragraph)? 
 --- >> 
 
There are some characters who are really held back because of their SFX of 
their flight as to what they can and can't do stealth-wise.  Fire based fliers 
can't use their flight at night (or sometimes during daylight for that matter) 
very well if they're trying to remain unseen.  At night, they can be seen for 
miles in the sky.  Same goes for any loud sounding SFX if you're trying to be 
stealthy.   
 
I don't know if that makes IPE worth it, but having a character with fire SFX 
has made me wish I could have it.   
 


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Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 01:50 PM