Week Ending December 13, 1997

From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 97 00:44:03  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
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On Fri, 5 Dec 1997 23:38:06 -0500 (EST), Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
 
 
>On a related topic, I have heard pretty convincing arguments that a 
>human-sized object breaking the sound barrier would *not* cause a 
>significant sonic boom - once again, because relatively little air is 
>being displaced. 
 
Given that the 'crack' of a whip is actually a sonic boom, methinks 
you're mistaken. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
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>>>>> "BS" == Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> writes: 
 
BS> The advantage in this is awfully slim. If my force of will makes me 
BS> glow, or turns my eyes green, or makes me smell funny, then my Flight 
BS> has visible effects, but observers still can't really tell what is 
BS> holding me aloft. 
 
It is not a matter of them being able to determine exactly what it is, it 
is a matter of them being abl to determine that there is something there. 
They may not understand why you glow or your eyes glow green or you smell 
funny, but they will know that whatever causes that is also allowing you to 
fly. 
 
The advantages of IPE are clear: if you have IPE on your Flight and you are 
flying, various nasties that may wish to kill you (or do other things) will 
not be able to trace you by the effects of your Flight. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight 
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
BG>    But that doesn't answer my question.  Apparently you misunderstood 
BG> it, so I'll state it more specifically: what real advantage, either 
BG> combat or campaign oriented, does a character who flies by "force of 
BG> will" have over one who, for example, is surrounded by little green 
BG> spheres when he flies, especially in light of the brief discussion of 
BG> Flight special effects under "Special Effects" in the "General Rules" 
BG> section of "Powers" (HSR, p 53, first column, last paragraph)? 
 
Lets use a bit more blatant special effects: a rocket pack.  The most 
"visible" aspect is the tremendous noise it makes when in use. 
 
Try sneaking up on *ANYONE* while flying with such a thing. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Making the Speedster 
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>>>>> "R" == Rook <rook@infinex.com> writes: 
 
R> Obviously their's having a speed score way above campaign average. 
R> And the high Dex. 
 
This trips up many players and GMs.  You do *NOT* need a high Speed or DEX 
to build a "speedster". 
 
Really. 
 
At the simplest level, speedsters are not particularly "quick" as far as 
combat is concerned.  In a standard 250-point game you can make a 
reasonable speedster type with a DEX 15-18, SPD 3-4, lots of a particular 
movement power, skill levels towards Multiple Move-By, and maybe skill 
levels to offset the movement power's turn mode.  Add a few odd powers to 
simulate some basic "super speed" effects, and you have an effective 
speedster at a cost of between 150 and 200 points. 
 
Remaining points can go to things like Reduced Endurance on the movement 
power, increased Recovery, more END, and whatever else strikes your fancy. 
 
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Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:40:29 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
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On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, qts wrote: 
 
> On Fri, 5 Dec 1997 23:38:06 -0500 (EST), Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>  
>  
> >On a related topic, I have heard pretty convincing arguments that a 
> >human-sized object breaking the sound barrier would *not* cause a 
> >significant sonic boom - once again, because relatively little air is 
> >being displaced. 
>  
> Given that the 'crack' of a whip is actually a sonic boom, methinks 
> you're mistaken. 
 
I guess you're probably right that there'd be a boom - which is how I've 
generally played things on those rare occasions where it's been relevant.  
 
Unfortunately, I can't remember the details of the argument against the 
boom, nor where I heard or read it. Probably a comic book - and you know 
how accurate comic book science is. :-)   Perhaps the point was that the 
boom wouldn't do as much damage as a low flying jet, due to the lesser 
amount of displaced air?  
 
I really do reserve judgment on this, until I hear a thorough analysis 
from an aeronautics engineer or develop mach-1 flight myself.  
 
As far as the wooshing goes, a glider might be a good example to consider. 
I don't really have any firsthand experience with those, but my guess 
would be that they don't really woosh. Of course, they're probably 
relatively slow too. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 21:43:46 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight 
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Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    But that doesn't answer my question.  Apparently you misunderstood it, 
> so I'll state it more specifically:  what real advantage, either combat or 
> campaign oriented, does a character who flies by "force of will" have over 
> one who, for example, is surrounded by little green spheres when he flies, 
> especially in light of the brief discussion of Flight special effects under 
> "Special Effects" in the "General Rules" section of "Powers" (HSR, p 53, 
> first column, last paragraph)? 
 
A visible power effect need only be visible enough to make use of the power  
likely to be noticed, make it clear who is producing the effect, and make  
it clear on what target (if any) the effect is being used.  The text on  
page 53 makes it clear that there is a wide range of special effect  
interpretations that are neither advantages nor limitations.  Consider the  
following visible flight SFXs: 
 
 
A.	Visible to sight group	(boot jets give off flame) 
	Visible to hearing grp	(boot jets roar) 
	Visible to smell	(boot jets give off exhaust) 
 
B.	Visible to sight group	(wings, restrainable) 
	Visible to hearing grp	(wings make flapping noise ex. in a glide) 
	Visible to touch	(wings do obvious wing-like things) 
 
C.	Visible to sight group	(glowing character and energy trail, 
	Radio/Radar		(electromagnetic waves from character) 
	Special/Mystic		(character gives off magic aura) 
 
A is unlikely ever to fly in and surprise anyone, and can be detected by  
the residual smell of exhaust after he leaves.  This will, on rare  
occasion, be a good thing, but it will usually just get more Viper agents  
on A's trail faster. 
 
B is entitled to a stealth skill roll even if flying, since the special  
effect is a more subtle sight and sound.  On the other hand, those big,  
obvious wings are an invitation to an entangle, which will be very  
inconvenient for B.  IMHO, this approximately balances. 
 
C is the p. 53 example.  Whereas C does not give off a perceptable  
"whoosh," C is immediately noticed by Air Traffic Control and/or NORAD.   
Fair trade, IMHO.  Sorcerous enemies will also realize that this is a  
magically-granted power as well.  So far, so good.  The question raised on  
page 53 is whether the glowing energy trail is an advantage, a limitation  
or neither.  The judgment of the authors is that it is enough of each to  
qualify as a minor effect, so no bonus nor limitation.  In a Dark Champions  
or an Espionage campaign, I would strongly disagree, so YMMV, but in a  
four-color campaign I agree with their argument. 
 
Now consider: 
 
AA.	Visible to radiation group,+3/4	(antigrav boots) 
 
BB.	Totally Invisible,+1		(Angel Wings, restrainable) 
 
CC.	Visible to Sight group,+1/2	(Glowing trail as above) 
 
 
Compare AA to A.  AA can fly in silently and without a visible glow.   
Unless the enemy has radiation sensors, or happens to look up (PER at a  
minus) at the right moment, AA may surprise the enemy. 
 
Compare BB to B.  BB has aetherial wings that cannot be perceived, but that  
cannot pass through barriers; therefore, they are useless against grabs,  
entangles and enclosed spaces.  The difference is that, since enemies don't  
see those wings, they are much less likely to think about trying to do any  
of those things, which would normally not affect flight. 
 
Compare CC to C.  Both have the -0 glowing trail, but CC does not attract  
the attention of radar nor of sorcerors.  This will *usually* be a good  
thing. 
 
Other notes: 
 
IMHO, the Size powers are outside the visible/invisible powers rule, since  
the size of an object is obvious, and cannot be made inobvious by buying  
the power IPE (buy Images instead or combat levels used to offset growth  
penalties).  This is especially true, since these powers are the ones most  
commonly bought Always On.  Similarly, a character with Armor usually has  
some obvious defense -- Kevlar, armor plates, tough hide, etc. -- but is  
not entitled to the Visible Power Effects limitation. 
 
I realized, after I had been GMing for a bit, that I had been granting  
Clairvoyance IPE by default, which is not per book.  It should be visible  
both at the source (user) and at the point of use, which makes it much less  
useful.  Since I was unwilling to impose the ruling retroactively on the  
campaign, I adopted a house rule that Clairvoyance may be visible at only  
one end (chosen when the power is bought), but then it must be *very*  
visible at that end. 
 
IMHO, a character producing Images is obviously producing the Images,  
unless they are bought IPE, or unless the image includes the character's  
own hex. 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
From: "Case" <wmpc@ix.netcom.com> 
Subject: Champions Adventures 
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 00:59:47 -0500 
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I've been subscribing to this list for about a week now, and wish I could 
join in and add something constructive. Unfortunately, I tend to get bored 
with rules discussions fairly quickly. I could probably add an occasional 
'Good idea! I agree!', but that wouldn't help conversation much. 
 
    I was wondering if anyone was interested in talking about their _role 
playing experiences_ in the Champions universe. How many people still play 
the 4-color brand of Champions? We used to play 4-color adventures for the 
longest time, until we got into a terrible rut- playing every tired cliche 
in the book 
        1) You walk into a bank, cashing a check, when suddenly... 
        2) The government has called you all into this meeting because we 
have a top-secret mission that only YOU can handle, or course, if you are 
caught we will deny everyth... 
        3) We must raid the super high-tech enemy complex, to 
            (a) rescue the hostage(s) 
            (b) stop the doomsday 
device/nuclear/biological/chemical/mechanical weapon 
            (c) destroy it. 
            (d) steal back the plans/equipment 
            (e) Kill the evil, vile, manical leader 
            (f) Oh, and get out quickly, because the central core is making 
a weird ticking noise, and counting down backwards...hmmm..."3 minutes and 
counting??" 
        4) Hey, somebodys stealing the nuclear core of that reactor! 
        5) Wait, let me guess- you want to take over the world, too? 
        6) You're on patrol one night, and you hear a cry for help in the 
alley... 
 
    That was one problem we had, the other was getting people out of their 
shells and INTO their characters. So many good adventures feel flat when 
players acted biligerent- for example- being arrested and sent to jail. 
(Yea, so what? I know you can't keep me in here, because it ruins the 
adventure for everyone else...) (Yea, I killed the witness, so what? As long 
as I keep moving, I can keep this adventure afloat...) 
 Another problem is when people role play, they tend to forget what it's 
really like to be human. Ask yourself next time you're roleplaying- "Am I 
hungry? Do I need to get batteries for my TV remote? What's that smell in my 
refrigerator?? Damn I forgot to call my mother for her birthday! My stomach 
is a bit on the nauseous side today. Who wants to be the witness at my 
divorce trial??" 
 
        -CaseMan 
 
 
 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 01:04:57 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
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Reply-To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero System Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight 
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On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Rook wrote: 
 
>     In issue 29 of Impulse he deflects a hail of hundreds of bullets coming from 
> all directions by creating a 
> whirlwind pushing down. In effect he reflected all the bullets down. It wasn't 
> like a Force Field, it was 
> missile deflection. He sat there for a moment and debated to himself the best 
> direction to send all the 
> bullets. He chose down to eliminate having any innocents (sp?) get hurt. Now, he 
> certainly didn't see any 
> of the bullets coming from behind him until he began to spin. 
 
This could also be considered a Force Wall.  The direction could be just 
FX. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
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* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 23:11:44 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
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Subject: Re: Champions Adventures 
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Case wrote: 
 
> I've been subscribing to this list for about a week now, and wish I could 
> join in and add something constructive. Unfortunately, I tend to get bored 
> with rules discussions fairly quickly. I could probably add an occasional 
> 'Good idea! I agree!', but that wouldn't help conversation much. 
> 
>     I was wondering if anyone was interested in talking about their _role 
> playing experiences_ in the Champions universe. How many people still play 
> the 4-color brand of Champions? We used to play 4-color adventures for the 
> longest time, until we got into a terrible rut- playing every tired cliche 
> in the book 
> 
 
    [snip]There's a lot one can do with four color. Just read Astro City. It's 
much more 
dynamic a genre than people give it credit for. 
 
 
>     That was one problem we had, the other was getting people out of their 
> shells and INTO their characters. So many good adventures feel flat when 
> players acted biligerent- for example- being arrested and sent to jail. 
> (Yea, so what? I know you can't keep me in here, because it ruins the 
> adventure for everyone else...) (Yea, I killed the witness, so what? As long 
> as I keep moving, I can keep this adventure afloat...) 
 
    Remember the genre. If you're doing four color heroes just don't do those 
things.Even most villians don't. And they certainly don't get away with it. 
Enforce the genre. 
Have something get on them for it. Remind them of their disads, etc. 
 
 
>  Another problem is when people role play, they tend to forget what it's 
> really like to be human. Ask yourself next time you're roleplaying- "Am I 
> hungry? Do I need to get batteries for my TV remote? What's that smell in my 
> refrigerator?? Damn I forgot to call my mother for her birthday! My stomach 
> is a bit on the nauseous side today. Who wants to be the witness at my 
> divorce trial??" 
 
    Focus on what's important to the story at hand. There's some great 
discussions 
on news:rec.games.frp.advocacy that go into this. Which is important to you? 
Playing the Game? 
Living the Role? 
Simulating the World? 
 
    Focus on what's needed and blur out the rest to the level most comfortable 
to you. 
 
-- 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 01:25:05 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Shaggy 
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Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>  
> > One of the Garou books (I think) contains Shaggy 20 years after the 
> > Mystery Machine days, though under a different name to avoid copyright, I 
> > suppose.  I found the write up to be amusing, but I never could stand the 
> > show and Shaggy ends up a burned out Pentex agent;). 
>  
>         Hmmm.  Gotta see that one. 
>  
>         Anyway, that show was great.  At least the first series, anyway. 
> In the pre-Scrappy (the antichrist of cartoons) days. 
>  
>         Going with the drug-trip reading of that show, where it was seen 
> as one long acid trip, that must make the second series a bad trip, as all 
> the monsters were real that time _and_ we had to put up with Scrappy. 
 
   Yes, Scrappy-Doo *IS* the Antichrist.  And just to fly a little 
further away from appropriate list topics.... 
 
   Although through the years Scooby-Doo (the show) continued on a 
downhill slide until it became Shaggy, Scooby and Scrappy stumbling into 
a random storefront, only to be chased by a monster for 22 minutes, 
there was a comeback. 
 
   "A Pup Named Scooby-Doo" was an EXCELENT parody/homage to the 
original series, starring all the 'kids' as kids.  I thoroughly abhor 
the entire genre of the "___-kids" rash of several years ago, but this 
show surpassed said shortcoming and shone out as a show which celebrated 
all the good of Scooby-Doo and reveled in the genre of The Cartoon. 
 
   We now return you to your regularly scheduled RPG topic(s) 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
From: "Jeff O'Connor" <jtoc@msn.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures 
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 02:35:59 -0700 
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Case: 
 
Four-color doesn't have to be dull.  When it comes down to it, I think every 
plot device in comics is pretty tired today.  Still, you can have a lot of 
fun just with the things you described if you tweak them a bit.  For 
example: 
 
 
>        1) You walk into a bank, cashing a check, when suddenly... 
 
Ah, the tired old bank robbery.  I played in a DC Heroes campaign a few 
years back where a villianous, small-fry computer hacker and a mid-level 
super-speedster ran a pretty clever racket.  The hacker had written a 
computer program that would give him the location of all the ATMs in the 
city that had been activated by someone who had entered their ATM card and 
code.  As soon as someone made a legitimate withdrawl, the speedster would 
run by, snatch the cash, and (assuming the PC/NPC failed his or her 
perception check) get away clean.  As far as the victims could tell, the 
ATMs had never paid off in the first place.  It was a great scenario - the 
hacker's involvement was obvious, but the speedster's wasn't.  Moreover, it 
turned out that this storyline was just a hook to a "mini-series."  The 
speedster was stealing to keep buying black-market Velocity-9, which was the 
source of his power. 
 
>        2) The government has called you all into this meeting because we 
>have a top-secret mission that only YOU can handle, or course, if you are 
>caught we will deny everything 
 
Like they say on the X-Files, no matter how paranoid you are - you're not 
paranoid enough.  When dealing with the government, take a page from Mission 
Impossible:  The Movie.  Things AREN'T what they appear.  What happens if 
the mission is to destroy a doomsday device that turns out to be a 
cold-fusion reactor?  You know - clean, cheap, inexhaustibly power for the 
whole world, and the heroes get duped into taking it out in the name of 
American big business?  Better yet, have one super-secret government agency 
play the heroes against another?  It only a bit less tired of a plot 
device - but if you play the USA vs. the UN and put the target in an exotic 
location, you can really have a good time with it. 
 
>        3) We must raid the super high-tech enemy complex, to 
>            (a) rescue the hostage(s) 
>            (b) stop the doomsday 
device/nuclear/biological/chemical/mechanical weapon 
>            (c) destroy it. 
>            (d) steal back the plans/equipment 
>            (e) Kill the evil, vile, manical leader 
>            (f) Oh, and get out quickly, because the central core is making 
>                 a weird ticking noise, and counting down 
backwards...hmmm..."3 minutes and 
>                 counting??" 
 
There's nothing wrong with this classic - just give it an unusual setting 
and an unlikely twist or two.  A great storyline that came up when I was 
playing DC Heroes was to have the PCs have to recover the Spear of Destiny 
(an old Justice Society of America plot device) and return it to the 
Vatican, where it had been housed since the end of World War II.  Sure, 
Spear of Destiny = big, nasty weapon.  But how often do PCs run into the 
Pope as an NPC or end up duking it out at St. Peter's and worrying more 
about the statuary than their own super-necks? 
 
>        4) Hey, somebodys stealing the nuclear core of that reactor! 
 
Never look a gift-horse or plot hook in the mouth.  Exposure to radiation = 
mutation.  This is a good plot device for slapping the character with an 
unknown disadvantage or new power.  I GM'd an adventure where one of the 
high-tech geek NPCs got exposed to a mutagen in a plotline like this and 
ended up with superhuman strength - and no idea how to use it gently.  The 
media dubbed her a monster and she left a trail of wreckage to prove it. 
The PCs ended up having to protect her from a batch of heroic, 
government-issue NPCs who wanted to cart her off.  They could fight the 
NPCs, but not city hall.  In the end, they had to find a cure to keep her 
out of a government laboratory. 
 
>        5) Wait, let me guess- you want to take over the world, too? 
 
What's wrong with wanting to take over the city/country/globe?  Besides, 
it's all in the execution.  I have a favorite villian called Dr. Voodoo 
whose the exiled dictator of a ficticious Carribean nation.  He only wants 
to take over his country, but he usually uses a small Army of undead to do 
it.  This makes for a great Halloween adventure. 
 
>        6) You're on patrol one night, and you hear a cry for help in the 
alley... 
 
This seems to work for Spider-Man and Batman.  They're always getting into 
something with this old chestnut.  Again, it doesn't matter what draws you 
into the adventure - it is what the adventure is.  Suppose the alley is a 
gateway to a parallel universe, or another time and the characters are 
hearing someone/something on the other side?  Maybe it's a trap that's been 
set by the newest villian in town?  Maybe the characters are hallucinating, 
and it's all in their heads?  If it isn't broken, don't fix it - use it! 
 
 
 
 
X-Sender: mlknight@pop.mindspring.com 
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 03:20:09 -0700 
From: Michelle Knight <mlknight@mindspring.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:59 AM 12/7/97 -0500, Case wrote: 
 
 
>    I was wondering if anyone was interested in talking about their _role 
>playing experiences_ in the Champions universe. How many people still play 
>the 4-color brand of Champions? We used to play 4-color adventures for the 
>longest time, until we got into a terrible rut- playing every tired cliche 
>in the book 
 
 
 
     My advice: Watch the news and read the newspapers and get ideas from 
there.  True, many ideas aren't really 4 colorish, but it can make for some 
interesting Dark Champions adventures. In fact, I'm working on one such 
idea as I write this. 
 
 
 
Michelle 
 
 
 
  
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 06:33:39 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:39 PM 12/7/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>  
>> At 09:59 AM 12/6/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>> > Do characters with regeneration regenerate limbs?  If they 
>> >can, how much would they need to heal to regenerate, lets say, an 
>> >arm? 
>>  
>>    The last I saw, officially, no.  For character concepts that need this, 
>> I usually allow a +1/2 "House Rule" advantage, "Regrows Limbs," which can 
>> be applied to REC, Aid (with the Healing option), or Regeneration. 
> 
>And this is written where?  Certainly not under the description of  
>regeneration in the BBB. 
 
   It's not written anywhere.  That's what makes it a house rule, Rick. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 97 14:59:16  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:40:29 -0500 (EST), Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
 
> 
> 
>On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, qts wrote: 
> 
>> On Fri, 5 Dec 1997 23:38:06 -0500 (EST), Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>>  
>>  
>> >On a related topic, I have heard pretty convincing arguments that a 
>> >human-sized object breaking the sound barrier would *not* cause a 
>> >significant sonic boom - once again, because relatively little air is 
>> >being displaced. 
>>  
>> Given that the 'crack' of a whip is actually a sonic boom, methinks 
>> you're mistaken. 
> 
>I guess you're probably right that there'd be a boom - which is how I've 
>generally played things on those rare occasions where it's been relevant.  
> 
>Unfortunately, I can't remember the details of the argument against the 
>boom, nor where I heard or read it. Probably a comic book - and you know 
>how accurate comic book science is. :-)   Perhaps the point was that the 
>boom wouldn't do as much damage as a low flying jet, due to the lesser 
>amount of displaced air?  
 
This depends upon how you define significant, then, I suppose. My take 
is that if you *want* your hero to cause damage, just take a linked <g> 
EB vs PD. OTOH if you want your PC to go supersonic without being 
heard, you must take IPE: Hearing 
 
Does that help? 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
X-Sender: avatar@pop-gw.homeshopping.com.br 
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 13:28:06 -0200 
From: "Rafael Sant'Anna Meyer" <avatar@br.homeshopping.com.br> 
Subject: Help!!! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
	Hi Heroes, 
 
	I am needing 3 npcs for a game. One must be a Blaster, other a velocist 
and the third a sorcerer. 
 
	I accept Heromaker files.  
Eletric Avatar 
avatar@br.homeshopping.com.br 
eletric_avatar@hotmail.com 
UIN:3291380 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 07:35:45 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:59 AM 12/7/97 -0500, Case wrote: 
>    I was wondering if anyone was interested in talking about their _role 
>playing experiences_ in the Champions universe. How many people still play 
>the 4-color brand of Champions? We used to play 4-color adventures for the 
>longest time, until we got into a terrible rut- playing every tired cliche 
>in the book 
>        1) You walk into a bank, cashing a check, when suddenly... 
>        2) The government has called you all into this meeting because we 
>have a top-secret mission that only YOU can handle, or course, if you are 
>caught we will deny everyth... 
>        3) We must raid the super high-tech enemy complex, to 
>            (a) rescue the hostage(s) 
>            (b) stop the doomsday 
>device/nuclear/biological/chemical/mechanical weapon 
>            (c) destroy it. 
>            (d) steal back the plans/equipment 
>            (e) Kill the evil, vile, manical leader 
>            (f) Oh, and get out quickly, because the central core is making 
>a weird ticking noise, and counting down backwards...hmmm..."3 minutes and 
>counting??" 
>        4) Hey, somebodys stealing the nuclear core of that reactor! 
>        5) Wait, let me guess- you want to take over the world, too? 
>        6) You're on patrol one night, and you hear a cry for help in the 
>alley... 
 
   You could always go with the Villains Attack Heroes, or Villains Set 
Heroes Up to Take a Fall.  I've gotten some very positive feedback on some 
of the adventures on my website (URL below).  One of the plots features 
Spectrum setting up the heroes to face criminal charges by tricking them 
into committing violent crimes on television; another has VIPER and COIL 
playing the heroes off each other. 
 
>    That was one problem we had, the other was getting people out of their 
>shells and INTO their characters. So many good adventures feel flat when 
>players acted biligerent- for example- being arrested and sent to jail. 
>(Yea, so what? I know you can't keep me in here, because it ruins the 
>adventure for everyone else...) (Yea, I killed the witness, so what? As long 
>as I keep moving, I can keep this adventure afloat...) 
> Another problem is when people role play, they tend to forget what it's 
>really like to be human. Ask yourself next time you're roleplaying- "Am I 
>hungry? Do I need to get batteries for my TV remote? What's that smell in my 
>refrigerator?? Damn I forgot to call my mother for her birthday! My stomach 
>is a bit on the nauseous side today. Who wants to be the witness at my 
>divorce trial??" 
 
   Something that's been done with a fair amount of success is to just sit 
around and say, "OK, we're not going to have an adventure tonight.  We're 
just going to have a barbecue in the backyard at team headquarters."  Of 
course, you can substitute whatever other activity the whole group would 
enjoy -- poker game, shopping excursion, or whatever.  If it's near a 
holiday time, have them observe a holiday get-together; this is especially 
fitting for Independence Day (in the US at least) and Christmas.  But the 
point is that they have to interact *in character*, and in the context of 
the game.  The GM portrays any DNPCs and other NPCs, but the closest thing 
that happens to an actual adventure is some minor nusiance created by a 
Hunter, or maybe some minor incident foreshadowing an upcoming scenario. 
I've seen this done, participated, and GMed it, and it's always helped make 
the characters a little more human (or whatever they happen to be) instead 
of just a bunch of stats and soliloquies. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 08:46:12 -0700 
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Jumping in late here, but I've had a weeks worth to catch up on... 
Favorite Fight scenes: 
 
Comics...Legion of Super Heroes (1st incarantion- Baxter issues) vs the 
Legion of SuperVillians. Those were drawn wonderfully. I also liked the 
KK death fight. I was pissed and saddened, but it was well done. 
 
As mentioned also, the Superman/Batman fight in Dark Knight Returns. The 
ultimate Green arrow. heh. 
 
Movies.. The cliffs of insanity sword duel (hey I love the movie)- 
Princess Bride. 
 
     There were some edits in it but I also liked the Brandon Lee vs the 
'Long haired henchman' in Rapid Fire. 
 
Favorite movie tacitc in a fight....  
Godzilla vs the Smog monster.. Smoggie alters and flies away, and 
Godzilla watches him, then turns around shoots his halitosis at the 
ground, lifts off, flies after Smoggie, and drops on him. Campy but fun. 
 
--  
-Mhoram 
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 
 two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 08:31:21 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:00 AM 12/7/97 -0800, Robert A. West wrote: 
>Rick Holding wrote: 
>>  
>> Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>> > 
>> > At 09:59 AM 12/6/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>> > > Do characters with regeneration regenerate limbs? . . .  
>> > 
>> >    The last I saw, officially, no.  . . . 
>>  
>> And this is written where?  Certainly not under the description of 
>> regeneration in the BBB. 
> 
>Actually, the point is that the book says nowhere that Regeneration can  
>regrow limbs.  Powers do what they are stated to do, modulo special  
>effects. 
> 
>Per book, Regen recovers points of BODY, period.  As has been pointed out  
>from time to time, the only way to represent limb loss under standard  
>rules is as a Major Transform.  By the rules for Transform, a completed  
>transform may either be reversed by recovering the Transform "BODY" as if  
>recovering normal BODY, in which case Regeneration works, or by some  
>other method appropriate to the Transform, in which case Regeneration is  
>irrelevant.   
 
   It's not altogether true that the only way to represent limb loss under 
standard rules is as a Major Transform.  (It depends somewhat on how you 
define the term "standard rules.")  On HSR page 164, in the "Hands, Arms, 
and Shoulders" section under "Disabling," second sentence, the book states, 
"The arm may be totally severed depending upon the nature of the attack and 
the GM's judgement."  The same sentence (identical except for "arm" being 
replaced with "limb") appears under the "Thighs, Legs, and Feet" section. 
 
>Since humans do not, in most campaigns, routinely regrow limbs, this  
>implies that the Transform in question is nor reversed by normal BODY  
>recovery; therefore standard Regeneration would not work.  It would be  
>perfectly appropriate to define a SFX for Regeneration that works against  
>(and only against) Transforms that represent Amputations, and to require  
>that all amputation Transforms include Regeneration/Limb as one of the  
>reversal conditions. 
> 
>BTW, Regeneration is, IMHO, vastly underpriced.  For 10 points, a  
>character gets to heal 1 BODY/turn, Persistent, indefinitely.  This means  
>that the character will not "bleed" to death at negative BODY.  Once a  
>Paramedic roll has been made, the character will heal 300 BODY per hour!  
>Wow! 
 
   I tend to agree with you here.  I tend to keep a tight rein on 
Regeneration as it currently stands.  The proposal for a +1/4 Advantage to 
REC for every step up the Time Chart is much more logical. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com (Unverified) 
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 11:21:54 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 27 
 
At 06:04 PM 12/5/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>The discussion of Special Effects at the beginning of the Powers section 
>implies pretty strongly that the glowing trail schtick is strictly 
>optional; not having one isn't something you should pay extra for. 
> 
>Invisible Flight would imply that people can't tell he's flying, just like 
>you can't tell that somebody firing an Invisible Energy Blast is launching 
>an attack. 
 
It may seem to, but only if one confuses function with FX.  Remember that 
visibility issues are related to SFX, while the function of the power is 
that which remains constant *regardless* of SFX.   
 
All Powers which are considered 'visible' (all but inherently Persistent 
Powers, Mental Powers, and maybe Density Increase) create 3 perceptible 
effects /completely apart/ from the function of the Power.  Buying IPE 
allows you to eliminate these perceptible effects, and only those effects -- 
you can't use IPE at any level to render the function of the power 
imperceptible.  For example, one can make it impossible to tell that someone 
has launched an attack at you, but that doesn't make the *damage* of the 
attack "invisible". 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com (Unverified) 
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 11:21:56 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 28 
 
At 11:19 PM 12/5/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>If it's clear where the source of the power is, whether a Sandman with a 
>gun, Popinjay with a pointed finger, or Superman confidently floating in 
>the air, I'd be willing to consider the power visible.  
 
Ah, but that's just it -- Superman's flight is NOT clear.  If Superman is 
flying with his feet touching the surface of a quicksand pit, will someone 
charging him realize he IS flying, or will they think he's standing? 
Superman's flight more than likely IS Invisible -- there's NO sign that he's 
flying except for the fact that he's in the air. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com (Unverified) 
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 11:21:58 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 25 
 
At 07:38 AM 12/6/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   But that doesn't answer my question.  Apparently you misunderstood it, 
>so I'll state it more specifically:  what real advantage, either combat or 
>campaign oriented, does a character who flies by "force of will" have over 
>one who, for example, is surrounded by little green spheres when he flies, 
>especially in light of the brief discussion of Flight special effects under 
>"Special Effects" in the "General Rules" section of "Powers" (HSR, p 53, 
>first column, last paragraph)? 
 
1) For one example, see my comments in another post, where force of will 
flight can be used to trick people into walking into a trap (quicksand that 
Our Hero appears to be "standing" on). 
 
2) Here's another one: protecting secret IDs.  If Superman is pushed out a 
window, he can use his flight to slow his fall and "catch" a convenient 
outcropping -- "Lucky for you that ledge was there, Clark, you could have 
been killed!"  Green Lantern tries the same trick, and everyone watching 
knows he's Green Lantern, because he surrounds himself with that trademark 
glowing green aura when he kicks in the flight. 
 
3) As Rat has pointed out a half-dozen times (frankly, IMO whenever Rat and 
I actually AGREE on something, it should be taken as gospel ;] ;] ;]), the 
distinction makes a big difference in terms of stealth issues.  Lots easier 
for Maxima to sneak up on someone than Rocket Red. 
 
4) As Robert West illustrated in an incredibly well-written post, it also 
makes a big difference to people trying to COUNTERACT those powers.  SFX 
give clues to the mechanisms behind powers.  If I see someone flying with 
wings, I'm going to think I can stop him from flying by 'clipping' them. 
Rockets can be clogged, magnetic manipulation can be disrupted, etc.  But to 
figure out these countermeasures, I have to be able to detect the measure in 
the first place. 
 
I don't think there's really much question that the guy with force-of-will 
flight is better off.  I will admit, it's debatable whether he's that MUCH 
better off.  I've often felt that Invisible is rather overpriced, at least 
in regard to non-attack/damaging/whathaveyou powers like movement modes. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 13:23:58 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Help!!! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Rafael Sant'Anna Meyer wrote: 
 
>  
> 	Hi Heroes, 
>  
> 	I am needing 3 npcs for a game. One must be a Blaster, other a velocist 
> and the third a sorcerer. 
 
Uh... what is a 'velocist'? 
 
BTW: Rafael, if you have web access (or even access to Lynx) try my 
website (listed below), there are well over 200+ write-ups there, 
including 65 pretty useful superhero characters adapted from the 
_Wildcards_ book 
series. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 11:00:46 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Rick Holding wrote: 
>  
> Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> > 
> > At 09:59 AM 12/6/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
> > > Do characters with regeneration regenerate limbs? . . .  
> > 
> >    The last I saw, officially, no.  . . . 
>  
> And this is written where?  Certainly not under the description of 
> regeneration in the BBB. 
 
Actually, the point is that the book says nowhere that Regeneration can  
regrow limbs.  Powers do what they are stated to do, modulo special  
effects. 
 
Per book, Regen recovers points of BODY, period.  As has been pointed out  
from time to time, the only way to represent limb loss under standard  
rules is as a Major Transform.  By the rules for Transform, a completed  
transform may either be reversed by recovering the Transform "BODY" as if  
recovering normal BODY, in which case Regeneration works, or by some  
other method appropriate to the Transform, in which case Regeneration is  
irrelevant.   
 
Since humans do not, in most campaigns, routinely regrow limbs, this  
implies that the Transform in question is nor reversed by normal BODY  
recovery; therefore standard Regeneration would not work.  It would be  
perfectly appropriate to define a SFX for Regeneration that works against  
(and only against) Transforms that represent Amputations, and to require  
that all amputation Transforms include Regeneration/Limb as one of the  
reversal conditions. 
 
BTW, Regeneration is, IMHO, vastly underpriced.  For 10 points, a  
character gets to heal 1 BODY/turn, Persistent, indefinitely.  This means  
that the character will not "bleed" to death at negative BODY.  Once a  
Paramedic roll has been made, the character will heal 300 BODY per hour!  
Wow! 
 
Consider what one can do with 75 points to spend. 
 
25	2 pts Regeneration Usable by Self and 1 Other* 
17	Life Support: Immunity to Disease Aging, Self and 46 Others.* 
33	10D6 Dispel any Disease power(+1/4) Area Effect Explosion(+1)** 
	* = use by Others adv. requires 0 DCV Conc., Gestures, 
		Incantations. 
	** = entire power 0 DCV, Gestures, Incantations. 
 
The Dispel will get rid of active disease, while the Life Support will  
keep it from coming back long enough for the immune system to rid the  
body of the disease organism -- curing virtually any disease.  When a  
character proposed buying this suite, I told the player (half-jokingly)  
that I would also mandate the "Messiah Package" 
 
10	20 PRE 
3	PS: Messiah 13- (PRE) 
10	Head of Major World Religion 
10	Revered as a God 
15	Unlimited Wealth 
150	200 Million Followers (25-pt Normals) 
	Disadvantages 
25	Hunted by Mulitple Religions as the False Messiah 14-,>pow,NCI. 
10	Watched by Followers 14- 
15	Watched by all Governments and the Press 14- 
25	Extreme Reputation 14- (Messiah or False Messiah) 
10	Public Identity 
3	Package Bonus 
--- 
110	Net Cost of Package 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
From: "VANSICKLE, James" <jvansickle@shl.com> 
Subject: RE: Regenerating limbs 
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 13:45:00 -0600 
Encoding: 86 TEXT 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
What about BOD loss through loss of limbs?  If I have a hand or arm cut 
off, do I permenately loose a certain amount of points in BODY.  To 
represent the fact that part of my BODY is no longer attached? 
 
>---------- 
>From: 	Robert A. West[SMTP:robtwest@erols.com] 
>Sent: 	Sunday, December 07, 1997 1:34 PM 
>To: 	champ-l@omg.org 
>Subject: 	Re: Regenerating limbs 
> 
>Rick Holding wrote: 
>>  
>> Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>> > 
>> > At 09:59 AM 12/6/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>> > > Do characters with regeneration regenerate limbs? . . .  
>> > 
>> >    The last I saw, officially, no.  . . . 
>>  
>> And this is written where?  Certainly not under the description of 
>> regeneration in the BBB. 
> 
>Actually, the point is that the book says nowhere that Regeneration can  
>regrow limbs.  Powers do what they are stated to do, modulo special  
>effects. 
> 
>Per book, Regen recovers points of BODY, period.  As has been pointed out  
>from time to time, the only way to represent limb loss under standard  
>rules is as a Major Transform.  By the rules for Transform, a completed  
>transform may either be reversed by recovering the Transform "BODY" as if  
>recovering normal BODY, in which case Regeneration works, or by some  
>other method appropriate to the Transform, in which case Regeneration is  
>irrelevant.   
> 
>Since humans do not, in most campaigns, routinely regrow limbs, this  
>implies that the Transform in question is nor reversed by normal BODY  
>recovery; therefore standard Regeneration would not work.  It would be  
>perfectly appropriate to define a SFX for Regeneration that works against  
>(and only against) Transforms that represent Amputations, and to require  
>that all amputation Transforms include Regeneration/Limb as one of the  
>reversal conditions. 
> 
>BTW, Regeneration is, IMHO, vastly underpriced.  For 10 points, a  
>character gets to heal 1 BODY/turn, Persistent, indefinitely.  This means  
>that the character will not "bleed" to death at negative BODY.  Once a  
>Paramedic roll has been made, the character will heal 300 BODY per hour!  
>Wow! 
> 
>Consider what one can do with 75 points to spend. 
> 
>25	2 pts Regeneration Usable by Self and 1 Other* 
>17	Life Support: Immunity to Disease Aging, Self and 46 Others.* 
>33	10D6 Dispel any Disease power(+1/4) Area Effect Explosion(+1)** 
>	* = use by Others adv. requires 0 DCV Conc., Gestures, 
>		Incantations. 
>	** = entire power 0 DCV, Gestures, Incantations. 
> 
>The Dispel will get rid of active disease, while the Life Support will  
>keep it from coming back long enough for the immune system to rid the  
>body of the disease organism -- curing virtually any disease.  When a  
>character proposed buying this suite, I told the player (half-jokingly)  
>that I would also mandate the "Messiah Package" 
> 
>10	20 PRE 
>3	PS: Messiah 13- (PRE) 
>10	Head of Major World Religion 
>10	Revered as a God 
>15	Unlimited Wealth 
>150	200 Million Followers (25-pt Normals) 
>	Disadvantages 
>25	Hunted by Mulitple Religions as the False Messiah 14-,>pow,NCI. 
>10	Watched by Followers 14- 
>15	Watched by all Governments and the Press 14- 
>25	Extreme Reputation 14- (Messiah or False Messiah) 
>10	Public Identity 
>3	Package Bonus 
>--- 
>110	Net Cost of Package 
> 
>--  
><-------------------------------------------------------> 
>Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
>Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
>http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
> 
> 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:19:43 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: RE: Regenerating limbs 
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On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, VANSICKLE, James wrote: 
 
> What about BOD loss through loss of limbs?  If I have a hand or arm cut 
> off, do I permenately loose a certain amount of points in BODY.  To 
> represent the fact that part of my BODY is no longer attached? 
 
I beleive that the BB states a limb can only take about 1/3 of your Body 
score before being destroyed.  This might help in determining how far to 
reduce someone's Body stat after limb loss. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 12:39:23 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
> At 09:59 AM 12/6/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
> > Do characters with regeneration regenerate limbs?  If they 
> >can, how much would they need to heal to regenerate, lets say, an 
> >arm? 
>  
>    The last I saw, officially, no.  For character concepts that need this, 
> I usually allow a +1/2 "House Rule" advantage, "Regrows Limbs," which can 
> be applied to REC, Aid (with the Healing option), or Regeneration. 
 
And this is written where?  Certainly not under the description of  
regeneration in the BBB. 
 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 13:09:28 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
Subject: Any Published Champions Speedsters? 
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Hello; 
    In my quest for info on Speedsters I have one more question. 
 
Are they any Speedsters published in any Champions books. So far I've 
been unable to find any. 
 
Any edition of the game will do. 
 
 
-- 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:00:48 -0500 
X-Sender: matroy@mail.abacom.com 
From: Mathieu Roy <matroy@abacom.com> 
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters? 
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At 01:09 PM 12/7/97 -0800, Rook wrote: 
>Hello; 
>    In my quest for info on Speedsters I have one more question. 
> 
>Are they any Speedsters published in any Champions books. So far I've 
>been unable to find any. 
> 
>Any edition of the game will do. 
 
There are a couple in the latest edition of Golden Age Champions. 
 
Mathieu 
 
From: "Case" <wmpc@ix.netcom.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony... 
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:14:22 -0500 
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-----Original Message----- 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: Sunday, December 07, 1997 10:51 AM 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures 
 
 
>At 12:59 AM 12/7/97 -0500, Case wrote: 
>>    I was wondering if anyone was interested in talking about their _role 
>>playing experiences_ in the Champions universe. How many people still play 
>>the 4-color brand of Champions? We used to play 4-color adventures for the 
>>longest time, until we got into a terrible rut- playing every tired cliche 
>>in the book 
>>        1) You walk into a bank, cashing a check, when suddenly... 
 
 
 Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   You could always go with the Villains Attack Heroes, or Villains Set 
>Heroes Up to Take a Fall.  I've gotten some very positive feedback on some 
>of the adventures on my website (URL below).  One of the plots features 
>Spectrum setting up the heroes to face criminal charges by tricking them 
>into committing violent crimes on television; another has VIPER and COIL 
>playing the heroes off each other. 
 
I'm sorry- when I wrote that late last night, I didn't wrap up my point the 
way I wanted too because I was just plain too tired. What I was trying to 
say before my brain rudely kicked out on me was that I've tried in recent 
years to take my Champions adventures to a wholly different level. No more 
'black and white' heroes and villians. (Not all supervillians want to take 
over the world, some just want to have a little fun!) No more big-boobed 
babes in skintight costumes. I was at the point where I think I would barf 
if I heard "I was on patrol one evening when..." Megalomaniacs OUT. Bar 
fights OUT. Bank robberies WAY OUT. Instead, let's try to make stories with 
'above average' people in extraordinary circumstances. 
    Here are some recent examples: 
 
(a) A platoon of space marines is sent to the Mars to quell a major civil 
disobedience when they stumble upon a strange discovery... 
(b) Correctional officers are in charge of transporting a superpowered 
pyromanic across country. Funny thing is, the pyromanic doesn't want out- he 
NEEDS to get to Florida in one piece to recue his lover at the Dade County 
Stronghold... 
 (c) You play members of a militant Christian group infilitrating the a 
group of "mutilationists"...But before you meet Dr Vivisector- you are 
required to perform a live dissection to prove your worth. Do you do it? Or 
is there another way? 
 (d) Later in the Fall of 1998, I hope to have put together Champions 'Toy 
Story' spinoff- where the the protagonists play children's toys. The whos 
and whys aren't quite sketched out yet. 
  (e) A great adventure I'm working on for the Summer of '98- a *long* 
overdue spoof of Vampire:The Masquerade et al. You play rednecks chasing 
after some 'lunatics' who just "gone sucked da blood out  ma sons prize 
HAWG! Gawd dammit- lets go show 'em some old fashioned Southern JUSTICE! 
YEEE HAW!" 
  (f) The adventure I'm debuting for Dreamation 1998- where you finally get 
to play the super villians. (We did the playtesting for it last night it was 
the best adventure I've ever done in 14 years of GMing!) 
 
>   Something that's been done with a fair amount of success is to just sit 
>around and say, "OK, we're not going to have an adventure tonight.  We're 
>just going to have a barbecue in the backyard at team headquarters."  Of 
>course, you can substitute whatever other activity the whole group would 
>enjoy -- poker game, shopping excursion, or whatever.  If it's near a 
>holiday time, have them observe a holiday get-together; this is especially 
>fitting for Independence Day (in the US at least) and Christmas.  But the 
>point is that they have to interact *in character*, and in the context of 
>the game. 
 
I love this idea! Very cool! 
 
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
>   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
Great page, btw! 
 
        -CaseMan 
 
From: "Case" <wmpc@ix.netcom.com> 
Cc: <champ-l@omg.org> 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures 
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:17:58 -0500 
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> 
>    Focus on what's important to the story at hand. There's some great 
>discussions 
>on news:rec.games.frp.advocacy that go into this. Which is important to 
you? 
>Playing the Game? 
>Living the Role? 
>Simulating the World? 
> 
>    Focus on what's needed and blur out the rest to the level most 
comfortable 
>to you. 
 
 
Great newsgroup- thanks for the tip... 
 
>My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
>Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
>http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
> 
> 
> 
 
From: "Case" <wmpc@ix.netcom.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures 
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:42:13 -0500 
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>Ah, the tired old bank robbery.  I played in a DC Heroes campaign a few 
>years back where a villianous, small-fry computer hacker and a mid-level 
>super-speedster ran a pretty clever racket.  The hacker had written a 
>computer program that would give him the location of all the ATMs in the 
>city that had been activated by someone who had entered their ATM card and 
>code.  As soon as someone made a legitimate withdrawl, the speedster would 
>run by, snatch the cash, and (assuming the PC/NPC failed his or her 
>perception check) get away clean.  As far as the victims could tell, the 
>ATMs had never paid off in the first place.  It was a great scenario - the 
>hacker's involvement was obvious, but the speedster's wasn't.  Moreover, it 
>turned out that this storyline was just a hook to a "mini-series."  The 
>speedster was stealing to keep buying black-market Velocity-9, which was 
the 
>source of his power. 
 
 
In a phrase- that is *awesome*. I love it! 
 
 
>There's nothing wrong with this classic - just give it an unusual setting 
>and an unlikely twist or two.  A great storyline that came up when I was 
>playing DC Heroes was to have the PCs have to recover the Spear of Destiny 
>(an old Justice Society of America plot device) and return it to the 
>Vatican, where it had been housed since the end of World War II.  Sure, 
>Spear of Destiny = big, nasty weapon.  But how often do PCs run into the 
>Pope as an NPC or end up duking it out at St. Peter's and worrying more 
>about the statuary than their own super-necks? 
 
Funny- in my Christian militant adventure, my PC's met the Pope in the Star 
Wars-style closing medal ceremony! heh heh 
>>        5) Wait, let me guess- you want to take over the world, too? 
> 
>What's wrong with wanting to take over the city/country/globe?  Besides, 
>it's all in the execution.  I have a favorite villian called Dr. Voodoo 
>whose the exiled dictator of a ficticious Carribean nation.  He only wants 
>to take over his country, but he usually uses a small Army of undead to do 
 
>it.  This makes for a great Halloween adventure. 
 
 Well, the problem with wanting to take over the world- it's been done to 
death. There is almost no spin that hasn't been done. Everybody wants to be 
naked and famous. 
 
    Here's a valid analogy: Hero and villian are wrestling with a revolver. 
Gun goes off- and the villian crumples to the floor holding his stomach. 
"You shot...me". Asleep yet?? 
 
    How about this- Hero and villian are wrestling with gun, and hero 
snatches it away. He holds the gun to the villians forehead and says, 
"Today- you died. I shot you in the head, and you feel to the ground and 
died. Your last view in your fading window of conscious will be the front of 
my boots in front of your face." 
    "The very fact that I haven't taken your life yet means I own it. You 
are here listening to me because I am allowing you live long enough to 
listen to me." 
    "Before I kill you, I'm going to tell you what you will miss 
tomorrow...and the next day...and the next." 
    "Before I kill you, I want you to know how important your life was to 
your family..." 
 
  Who wants to rule the world? No one. Who wants to find a cologne that will 
make him irresistable to women? Who wants kill his rival? Who convets your 
car? Can't hardly breathe... 
 
>>        6) You're on patrol one night, and you hear a cry for help in the 
>alley... 
> 
>This seems to work for Spider-Man and Batman.  They're always getting into 
>something with this old chestnut.  Again, it doesn't matter what draws you 
>into the adventure - it is what the adventure is.  Suppose the alley is a 
>gateway to a parallel universe, or another time and the characters are 
>hearing someone/something on the other side?  Maybe it's a trap that's been 
>set by the newest villian in town?  Maybe the characters are hallucinating, 
>and it's all in their heads?  If it isn't broken, don't fix it - use it! 
 
Great point! I just think there's a better way...I mean, when I go on 
patrol, nothing exciting ever happens to me except that some jerk has cut 
off the 'Mystery Machine' on the highway....;D 
 
From: "Case" <wmpc@ix.netcom.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures 
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:44:45 -0500 
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>     My advice: Watch the news and read the newspapers and get ideas from 
>there.  True, many ideas aren't really 4 colorish, but it can make for some 
>interesting Dark Champions adventures. In fact, I'm working on one such 
>idea as I write this. 
 
 
 Oh forgive me, my message was suppose to be lead-in for dropping the whole 
4 color scene in favor of more realistic, darker stories... 
 
    (I just never completed the thought because my brain bonked out...) 
 
    -CaseMan 
 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 18:42:12 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: RE: Regenerating limbs 
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At 03:19 PM 12/7/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, VANSICKLE, James wrote: 
> 
>> What about BOD loss through loss of limbs?  If I have a hand or arm cut 
>> off, do I permenately loose a certain amount of points in BODY.  To 
>> represent the fact that part of my BODY is no longer attached? 
> 
>I beleive that the BB states a limb can only take about 1/3 of your Body 
>score before being destroyed.  This might help in determining how far to 
>reduce someone's Body stat after limb loss. 
> 
But BODY does not necessarily have to be a function of *just* physical 
structure.  It could represent a strong "will to live, as well as size and 
mass (Champions II, p 59.)"  So, it would depend on character conception. 
Yes, the disabling rules *could* be used as a guideline... but what if I 
lost 3 limbs? <g> Guess quadraplegics *aren't* valid characters in Hero... 
(Start off at negative BODY? <lol>) 
 
You may want the character to lose a BODY or two, as well as that limb. 
This might be balanced out by no longer having that hit location.  "I 
rolled a 10 to hit the one-armed man."  "Okay, Fugitive, what hit 
location?"  "I rolled an 8..."  "<flipping a coin> Right arm, no damage." <g> 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 18:43:32 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters? 
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At 05:00 PM 12/7/97 -0500, Mathieu Roy wrote: 
>At 01:09 PM 12/7/97 -0800, Rook wrote: 
>>Hello; 
>>    In my quest for info on Speedsters I have one more question. 
>> 
>>Are they any Speedsters published in any Champions books. So far I've 
>>been unable to find any. 
>> 
>>Any edition of the game will do. 
> 
>There are a couple in the latest edition of Golden Age Champions. 
> 
And there's Vibron, who was in Enemies I, and Classic Enemies.  Not really 
powerful, but he's a Speedster.  (Not very efficient, either...) 
 
- Jerry 
 
From: Egyptoid <Egyptoid@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 18:49:01 EST 
Subject: Re:  Re: Invisible Flight 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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In a message dated 12/6/97 11:11:19 PM, robtwest@erols.com wrote: 
>I realized, after I had been GMing for a bit, that I had been granting  
>Clairvoyance IPE by default, which is not per book.  It should be visible  
>both at the source (user) and at the point of use, which makes it much less  
>useful.  
 
Yeah, great big talking head looking around at the far end 
"I am the great & powerful Oz!" ain't IPE at all. 
-- 
Ell-Man 
 
From: Egyptoid <Egyptoid@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 18:49:04 EST 
Subject: Re:  Re: Invisible Flight 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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In a message dated 12/6/97 11:36:33 PM, bsvitavs@bu.edu wrote: 
>> >human-sized object breaking the sound barrier would *not* cause a 
>> >significant sonic boom - once again, because relatively little air is 
>> >being displaced. 
>> Given that the 'crack' of a whip is actually a sonic boom, methinks 
>> you're mistaken. 
>I guess yo're probably right that there'd be a boom - which is how I've 
>generally played things on those rare occasions where it's been relevant.  
 
I think you are both correct. 
 
Any object breaking the sound barrier causes a sonic boom. 
The end of a snapped towel, the tip of a bull-whip, a bullet, 
and a 757 all do it. 
 
The trick is the size. Jets displace TONS of air as they break 
sound-speed, and their sound carries for miles. 
A cracking whip displaces an ounce or two at most, and can't 
be heard a block away. 
 
Supersonic flight could be IPE I supppose, SFX are that you don't 
somehow cause a boom like every other object that breaks the 
sound "barrier". 
 
From: Egyptoid <Egyptoid@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 18:49:06 EST 
Subject: Re:  Re: Regenerating limbs 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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In a message dated 12/6/97 10:06:37 PM, rholding@ActOnline.com.au wrote: 
>> I usually allow a +1/2 "House Rule" advantage, "Regrows Limbs," which can 
>> be applied to REC, Aid (with the Healing option), or Regeneration. 
>And this is written where?  Certainly not under the description of  
>regeneration in the BBB. 
 
I guess I missed the limb-severing portion of the damage rules. 
Shall I whip out my Role-Master crit conversions for Hero?   :) 
-- 
Ell-Man 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 18:58:03 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony... 
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At 05:14 PM 12/7/97 -0500, "Case" wrote: 
>I'm sorry- when I wrote that late last night, I didn't wrap up my point the 
>way I wanted too because I was just plain too tired. What I was trying to 
>say before my brain rudely kicked out on me was that I've tried in recent 
>years to take my Champions adventures to a wholly different level. No more 
>'black and white' heroes and villians. (Not all supervillians want to take 
>over the world, some just want to have a little fun!) No more big-boobed 
>babes in skintight costumes. I was at the point where I think I would barf 
>if I heard "I was on patrol one evening when..." Megalomaniacs OUT. Bar 
>fights OUT. Bank robberies WAY OUT. Instead, let's try to make stories with 
>'above average' people in extraordinary circumstances. 
>    Here are some recent examples: 
> 
It just struck me that people in a "four-color" world see things in "black 
and white."  Huh.  I personally think that "black and white" heroes and 
villains, Big Busted Babes, and megalomaniacs are pretty darn genre...  I 
don't have them *all* the time, but, hey, it's a comic, right? 
Besides, the bar fights I usually run are more of the action film type, and 
usually just for this one mutant FBI agent, whose player really enjoys them. 
Bank robberies, yeah, guilty as charged.  Sometimes, you just *don't* have 
a scenario... that, and fights in a shopping mall. 
 
>(a) A platoon of space marines is sent to the Mars to quell a major civil 
>disobedience when they stumble upon a strange discovery... 
> 
How is this *not* tired?  I'm sorry, but I've seen it... and it doesn't 
really fit the superhero mold *at all*... unless you're talking 
space-faring supers, *maybe*.  For a Hero game, sure...  pretty easy. 
 
>(b) Correctional officers are in charge of transporting a superpowered 
>pyromanic across country. Funny thing is, the pyromanic doesn't want out- he 
>NEEDS to get to Florida in one piece to recue his lover at the Dade County 
>Stronghold... 
> 
I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is much of a plot hook.  Are the 
players the guards?  If so, how do they get drawn into the intrigue?  I can 
see them sitting on their rears eating donuts, guarding a guy who isn't 
going to escape...  maybe once they get there? 
 
> (c) You play members of a militant Christian group infilitrating the a 
>group of "mutilationists"...But before you meet Dr Vivisector- you are 
>required to perform a live dissection to prove your worth. Do you do it? Or 
>is there another way? 
> 
Superheroes?  huh.  I assume so, because of "Doc V."  Woulda never thunk 
it, tho. 
 
> (d) Later in the Fall of 1998, I hope to have put together Champions 'Toy 
>Story' spinoff- where the the protagonists play children's toys. The whos 
>and whys aren't quite sketched out yet. 
> 
Um, yeah.  I guess you could do it.  Didn't the Micronauts have to pose as 
kids toys?  Or was it just that their ship was always mistaken for such? 
 
>  (f) The adventure I'm debuting for Dreamation 1998- where you finally get 
>to play the super villians. (We did the playtesting for it last night it was 
>the best adventure I've ever done in 14 years of GMing!) 
> 
I've been trying to get a good supervillain adventure up for awhile...  can 
you fill us in?  I think it could be great... but it's not *necessarily* 
original, either.  DC and Marvel have both had out villain books before, I 
believe.  One of the newer Teen Titans villain groups is getting a one-shot 
this month, actually... 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote this: 
>>   Something that's been done with a fair amount of success is to just sit 
>>around and say, "OK, we're not going to have an adventure tonight.  We're 
>>just going to have a barbecue in the backyard at team headquarters."  Of 
>>course, you can substitute whatever other activity the whole group would 
>>enjoy -- poker game, shopping excursion, or whatever.  If it's near a 
>>holiday time, have them observe a holiday get-together; this is especially 
>>fitting for Independence Day (in the US at least) and Christmas.  But the 
>>point is that they have to interact *in character*, and in the context of 
>>the game. 
> 
>I love this idea! Very cool! 
> 
Yeah, I think so, too.  I'll have to try it some time. 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 19:11:07 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures 
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At 05:42 PM 12/7/97 -0500, "Case" wrote: 
> Well, the problem with wanting to take over the world- it's been done to 
>death. There is almost no spin that hasn't been done. Everybody wants to be 
>naked and famous. 
> 
Eh?  Is this a reference to something...?  Sorry, maybe I'm being obtuse. <g> 
 
>    Here's a valid analogy: Hero and villian are wrestling with a revolver. 
>Gun goes off- and the villian crumples to the floor holding his stomach. 
>"You shot...me". Asleep yet?? 
> 
Yeah, okay, it's been used a lot.  But, have *I* used it yet?  Nope.  And, 
until I do, I'm gonna consider it open game... (probably won't use it, tho) 
 
>    How about this- Hero and villian are wrestling with gun, and hero 
>snatches it away. He holds the gun to the villians forehead and says, 
>"Today- you died. I shot you in the head, and you feel to the ground and 
>died. Your last view in your fading window of conscious will be the front of 
>my boots in front of your face." 
>    "The very fact that I haven't taken your life yet means I own it. You 
>are here listening to me because I am allowing you live long enough to 
>listen to me." 
>    "Before I kill you, I'm going to tell you what you will miss 
>tomorrow...and the next day...and the next." 
>    "Before I kill you, I want you to know how important your life was to 
>your family..." 
> 
So, does he kill him?  This sounds *almost* what Westley in the Princess 
Bride did with Prince Humperdink ("To the death!" "No, to the Pain."), but 
he didn't follow through.  If the "hero" shot him like this... well, I 
wouldn't want that character in my game, is all.  I try and steer clear of 
the "vengeful hero" type.  I think *that*'s been done a little too much. 
(And I don't like it.) 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 19:13:48 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re:  Re: Regenerating limbs 
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At 06:49 PM 12/7/97 EST, Egyptoid wrote: 
>In a message dated 12/6/97 10:06:37 PM, rholding@ActOnline.com.au wrote: 
>>> I usually allow a +1/2 "House Rule" advantage, "Regrows Limbs," which can 
>>> be applied to REC, Aid (with the Healing option), or Regeneration. 
>>And this is written where?  Certainly not under the description of  
>>regeneration in the BBB. 
> 
>I guess I missed the limb-severing portion of the damage rules. 
>Shall I whip out my Role-Master crit conversions for Hero?   :) 
> 
Aah! Isn't this the system that, in a fist-fight, generally comes up with 
"Black eye" as a result for every other punch?  My brother once got 3 of 
'em in one fight... 
 
Oh, and the ever popular "Disemboweled" result... that one comes up a lot, 
too, right? 
 
- Jerry 
 
From: "Case" <wmpc@ix.netcom.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony... 
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 19:42:57 -0500 
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>It just struck me that people in a "four-color" world see things in "black 
>and white."  Huh.  I personally think that "black and white" heroes and 
>villains, Big Busted Babes, and megalomaniacs are pretty darn genre...  I 
>don't have them *all* the time, but, hey, it's a comic, right? 
>Besides, the bar fights I usually run are more of the action film type, and 
>usually just for this one mutant FBI agent, whose player really enjoys 
them. 
>Bank robberies, yeah, guilty as charged.  Sometimes, you just *don't* have 
>a scenario... that, and fights in a shopping mall. 
 
I think you may have somehow taken my comments personally. I'm not attacking 
you. 
I don't even know you. There's nothing wrong with four color adventures if 
that's what you really like. I was only suggesting alternative ideas to 
GM/Players who felt the same way.... 
> 
>>(a) A platoon of space marines is sent to the Mars to quell a major civil 
>>disobedience when they stumble upon a strange discovery... 
>> 
>How is this *not* tired?  I'm sorry, but I've seen it... and it doesn't 
>really fit the superhero mold *at all*... unless you're talking 
>space-faring supers, *maybe*.  For a Hero game, sure...  pretty easy. 
 
Superhero 'mold'. To me, your use of that phrase pretty much sums up the 
point I'm trying to make. Something must be done about the superhero 'mold'. 
 
>>(b) Correctional officers are in charge of transporting a superpowered 
>>pyromanic across country. Funny thing is, the pyromanic doesn't want out- 
he 
>>NEEDS to get to Florida in one piece to recue his lover at the Dade County 
>>Stronghold... 
>> 
>I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is much of a plot hook.  Are the 
>players the guards?  If so, how do they get drawn into the intrigue?  I can 
>see them sitting on their rears eating donuts, guarding a guy who isn't 
>going to escape...  maybe once they get there? 
> 
 Of course you don't see a plot hook. You don't want to. Why are you 
slamming me? I'm not sure if I came off as sarcastic to you in that original 
message I wrote or what. I was just trying to present different ideas that 
we tried that were successful. Am I presenting these ideas in the wrong 
forum? Is there another list I should be subscribing to? 
 
 Oh- the plot hook isn't immediately obvious on purpose. I want the players 
to feel 'comfy'- or incredibly suspicious... 
 
>> (d) Later in the Fall of 1998, I hope to have put together Champions 'Toy 
>>Story' spinoff- where the the protagonists play children's toys. The whos 
>>and whys aren't quite sketched out yet. 
>> 
>Um, yeah.  I guess you could do it.  Didn't the Micronauts have to pose as 
>kids toys?  Or was it just that their ship was always mistaken for such? 
 
You got me there. I guess it was dumb for me to even suggest it. 
 
>>  (f) The adventure I'm debuting for Dreamation 1998- where you finally 
get 
>>to play the super villians. (We did the playtesting for it last night it 
was 
>>the best adventure I've ever done in 14 years of GMing!) 
>> 
>I've been trying to get a good supervillain adventure up for awhile...  can 
>you fill us in?  I think it could be great... but it's not *necessarily* 
>original, either.  DC and Marvel have both had out villain books before, I 
>believe.  One of the newer Teen Titans villain groups is getting a one-shot 
>this month, actually... 
 
 
 To be honest- I'm a little reluctant now...Everything I've typed has either 
been shot done or insulted... 
        :( 
 
From: "Case" <wmpc@ix.netcom.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures 
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 19:53:08 -0500 
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>>    "Before I kill you, I'm going to tell you what you will miss 
>>tomorrow...and the next day...and the next." 
>>    "Before I kill you, I want you to know how important your life was to 
>>your family..." 
>> 
>So, does he kill him?  This sounds *almost* what Westley in the Princess 
>Bride did with Prince Humperdink ("To the death!" "No, to the Pain."), but 
>he didn't follow through.  If the "hero" shot him like this... well, I 
>wouldn't want that character in my game, is all.  I try and steer clear of 
>the "vengeful hero" type.  I think *that*'s been done a little too much. 
>(And I don't like it.) 
> 
 
 I think almost every story that's ever been done has been done before in 
one form or another. I think we all borrow little ideas or snippets of 
dialogue from movies, music, books, television. Everybody's a critic, eh? 
Are you out to slam EVERYTHING I come with? 
 
 No, he doesn't kill him. He let's him go to live a new life- one that 
doesn't involve killing or stealing. He's been given a second chance to 
enjoy life with his family. (Why- you could say I inadvertantly 'stole' the 
idea from A Christmas Carol) 
 
        -CaseMan 
 
 
 
 
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 11:47:09 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures 
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>    Remember the genre. If you're doing four color heroes just don't do those 
>things.Even most villians don't. And they certainly don't get away with it. 
>Enforce the genre. 
>Have something get on them for it. Remind them of their disads, etc. 
> 
> 
 
*sigh* can we stop with this sort of reasoning? genre is a guidelin or a limit to be breached, not a club for the gm. . .  
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 11:51:59 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
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>Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 11:55:24 
>To: hero-l@emerald.omg.org 
>From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
>Subject: Re: Champions Adventures 
>Cc: champ-l@omg.org, champ-l@omg.org 
> 
> 
>>    Remember the genre. If you're doing four color heroes just don't do those 
>>things.Even most villians don't. And they certainly don't get away with it. 
>>Enforce the genre. 
>>Have something get on them for it. Remind them of their disads, etc. 
>> 
>> 
> 
>*sigh* can we stop with this sort of reasoning? genre is a guidelin or a limit to be breached, not a club for the gm. . .  
> 
> 
 
X-Sender: jhebert@texas.net 
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 20:28:01 -0600 
From: Jeff Hebert <jhebert@texas.net> 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony... 
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At 07:42 PM 12/7/97 -0500, Case wrote: 
 
<snip> 
 
> To be honest- I'm a little reluctant now...Everything I've typed has either 
>been shot done or insulted... 
>        :( 
 
 
I have seen this happen a lot, so don't feel bad -- it's not you, it's just 
a kind of feeding frenzy I have seen e-mail on this and most of the other 
lists I've been privy to over the years. Something happens to people behind 
the veil of e-mail ... 
 
I thought your ideas all were interesting and had merit. Especially don't 
give up on the villain idea; we have been thinking of doing much the same 
thing. There are two major villain groups in our world; the Fourth Imperium 
(your standard world-conquerers) and Predator (a loose gang who is just out 
to make money, and will stop at nothing to get it). The campaign we were 
thinking of running was to have the players make up new members of 
Predator, who would then be given the assignment to rip off some high-tech 
weapons from the Imperium for resale to the highest bidder. The players 
then get to play completely evil characters if they want, doing whatever 
pleases them, completely out of the heroic ethos. And, it makes for some 
interesting play later, when the players' regular heroic characters 
encounter these nefarious new Predator villains! I think (hope) it will be 
a lot of fun. 
 
Maybe even that isn't completely original (hey, what is?) but it is fun, 
and that's the important thing, right? 
 
Hang in there! 
 
Jeff 
 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks 
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 18:43:05 -0800 
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On Thursday, December 04, 1997 9:14 AM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
 
 
<snip> 
 
>Not really.  Using a slim jim is Lockpicking; it is just a different 
attack 
>on the door mechanism.  The only way to defeat a slim jim is to 
encase the 
>entire mechaism in a box so that the tool cannot reach the mechanism. 
It 
>is an all or nothing deal, and seldom used except on the most 
expensive of 
>cars because, well, if one locks one's only set of keys inside the 
only way 
>in at that point is to break a window. 
 
When I lost my only set of keys to a car I had just bought, I called a 
locksmith. He took a blank key and a file, put the key in the lock, 
wiggled it, examined the marks this made, and filed it with the 
cylindrical file. 
 
It took two tries and probably twenty minutes, but the key works 
perfectly. Better than most cheaply copied keys I've had made at the 
local Fred Meyer store. (A local "has everything" store, like Walmart 
but with a full grocery store as well.) 
 
<snip> 
 
>To be suscinct, locks exist to thwart amateurs.  Professional thieves 
will 
>find a way to bypass whatever security you can devise.  For instance, 
a 
>local car theft ring allegedly had a slick trick: a flatbed car 
carrier 
>with an insulated shell.  They'd pull into a lot, pick out a BMW, 
quickly 
>hoist it into the shell.  The shell was a faraday cage, so it would 
block 
>Lojack signals, and it was padded to shut in the sound of the alarm. 
>They'd drive the truck up into New Hampshire, out of range of the 
Lojack 
>transmitter, and chop up the car (after disconnecting the battery, 
thus 
>power to the alarm).  I say "allegedly" because when the ring was 
busted a 
>few years ago the truck was never recovered. 
 
A West Coast ring a few years ago didn't have an unusual theft method, 
but did have an unusual way of getting their money. They would steal 
brand new luxury cars and strip them. The insurance would pay off the 
car in full, and the stripped hulk would be sold at auction. They 
would buy the car, and put the parts back on it. The sale made the VIN 
clear and legal, so they could sell it at legit prices, instead of the 
low prices that hot cars get because they can be spotted on a simple 
traffic stop. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Worlds greatest fights 
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 18:47:35 -0800 
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On Thursday, December 04, 1997 9:15 AM, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
 
>Well, since the thread has died, here are the totals: 
 
 
Oops. I completely forgot my favorite gunfight: The last fight in True 
Grit. 
 
"Reach for your guns, you son of a bitch!" 
 
Filksinger 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 22:07:42 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures 
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At 07:53 PM 12/7/97 -0500, "Case" wrote (in response to me): 
>>>    "Before I kill you, I'm going to tell you what you will miss 
>>>tomorrow...and the next day...and the next." 
>>>    "Before I kill you, I want you to know how important your life was to 
>>>your family..." 
>>> 
>>So, does he kill him?  This sounds *almost* what Westley in the Princess 
>>Bride did with Prince Humperdink ("To the death!" "No, to the Pain."), but 
>>he didn't follow through.  If the "hero" shot him like this... well, I 
>>wouldn't want that character in my game, is all.  I try and steer clear of 
>>the "vengeful hero" type.  I think *that*'s been done a little too much. 
>>(And I don't like it.) 
> 
> I think almost every story that's ever been done has been done before in 
>one form or another. I think we all borrow little ideas or snippets of 
>dialogue from movies, music, books, television. Everybody's a critic, eh? 
>Are you out to slam EVERYTHING I come with? 
> 
I can agree with you on your first point.  Yes, I borrow ideas constantly 
from other media.  You almost have to.  The originality is in the 
presentation.  I wasn't out to slam you, I was just curious that you were 
going on about not being original, and some of the other ideas were a 
little stale, *to me* that is. 
 
> No, he doesn't kill him. He let's him go to live a new life- one that 
>doesn't involve killing or stealing. He's been given a second chance to 
>enjoy life with his family. (Why- you could say I inadvertantly 'stole' the 
>idea from A Christmas Carol) 
> 
 
With this one, I was *comparing* it (or trying to) to that scene from the 
Princess Bride, because I would absolutely let one of my players get away 
with that scene.  However, I could also see the monologue you just wrote 
being said with bitterness and bile in the character's voice, just to see 
the fear and realization in the villain's eyes right before he blew his 
head off. 
I'm glad that your hero (even if it is just an example) didn't kill him, 
and gave him a second chance.  Those are the kinds of heroes I would like 
in my games. 
 
I'm sorry that my response seemed overly critical to you.  The reason that 
I wrote so much was to be fair and try and respond to all that you wrote. 
I'll try and phrase my posts more concisely from now on. 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 22:27:48 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony... 
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At 07:42 PM 12/7/97 -0500, "Case" wrote: 
>>Bank robberies, yeah, guilty as charged.  Sometimes, you just *don't* have 
>>a scenario... that, and fights in a shopping mall. 
> 
>I think you may have somehow taken my comments personally. I'm not attacking 
>you. 
I'm glad to hear it, although I really didn't think you were.  I was saying 
that I, too, have fallen into this "bank robbery" trap too often... 
 
>I don't even know you. There's nothing wrong with four color adventures if 
>that's what you really like. I was only suggesting alternative ideas to 
>GM/Players who felt the same way.... 
> 
I like alternative ideas.  Again, it seems that *I've* come off the wrong 
way in my replies.  I'm trying to rein it in. 
 
>>>(a) A platoon of space marines is sent to the Mars to quell a major civil 
>>>disobedience when they stumble upon a strange discovery... 
>>> 
>>How is this *not* tired?  I'm sorry, but I've seen it... and it doesn't 
>>really fit the superhero mold *at all*... unless you're talking 
>>space-faring supers, *maybe*.  For a Hero game, sure...  pretty easy. 
> 
>Superhero 'mold'. To me, your use of that phrase pretty much sums up the 
>point I'm trying to make. Something must be done about the superhero 'mold'. 
> 
Okay, I guess I'm not getting the point, then.  Is this a definition of 
terms disagreement?  When I think of Supers, it's usually crime-fighting, 
world-saving stuff.  I usually don't think of space marines as *super* 
heroes, although it would well be within the realm of heroism. 
Would it be possible for you to elaborate, please? 
 
>>I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is much of a plot hook.  Are the 
>>players the guards?  If so, how do they get drawn into the intrigue?  I can 
>>see them sitting on their rears eating donuts, guarding a guy who isn't 
>>going to escape...  maybe once they get there? 
>> 
> Of course you don't see a plot hook. You don't want to. Why are you 
>slamming me? I'm not sure if I came off as sarcastic to you in that original 
>message I wrote or what. I was just trying to present different ideas that 
>we tried that were successful. Am I presenting these ideas in the wrong 
>forum? Is there another list I should be subscribing to? 
> 
I *do* want to, really.  I see a couple of possibilities.  The transport is 
assaulted by well-meaning but misguided friends of the incarcerated, and he 
has to fight *them* off to get taken away.  The PCs get involved with the 
other plot because the prisoner asks them to.  It could be the prisoner is 
a PC himself. 
I'm not trying to slam you.  I think this is all just coming out so wrong... 
This forum is for you, and this, really. 
 
> Oh- the plot hook isn't immediately obvious on purpose. I want the players 
>to feel 'comfy'- or incredibly suspicious... 
> 
Ok.  The main reason that I was asking was because I didn't know exactly 
what you were getting at with it, and I was curious.  That's a good thing, 
honest.  : ) 
 
>>> (d) Later in the Fall of 1998, I hope to have put together Champions 'Toy 
>>>Story' spinoff- where the the protagonists play children's toys. The whos 
>>>and whys aren't quite sketched out yet. 
>>> 
>>Um, yeah.  I guess you could do it.  Didn't the Micronauts have to pose as 
>>kids toys?  Or was it just that their ship was always mistaken for such? 
> 
>You got me there. I guess it was dumb for me to even suggest it. 
> 
I wasn't trying to say that.  I was mentioning a possibility...  I know I 
phrased it wrong.  I don't know if that idea would be for me, and I've 
never thought of it, so I was curious about the thinking behind it.  That's 
all. 
 
>>>  (f) The adventure I'm debuting for Dreamation 1998- where you finally 
>get 
>>>to play the super villians. (We did the playtesting for it last night it 
>was 
>>>the best adventure I've ever done in 14 years of GMing!) 
>>> 
>>I've been trying to get a good supervillain adventure up for awhile...  can 
>>you fill us in?  I think it could be great... but it's not *necessarily* 
>>original, either.  DC and Marvel have both had out villain books before, I 
>>believe.  One of the newer Teen Titans villain groups is getting a one-shot 
>>this month, actually... 
> 
> To be honest- I'm a little reluctant now...Everything I've typed has either 
>been shot done or insulted... 
>        :( 
> 
I *would* like to hear it.  (And *not* because I want to insult it or shoot 
it down, Case.)  I was just pointing out that you were saying these were 
different than the "four color" 'mold' that you wanted to get away from. 
Some of them are, but I'm not sure if they're completely outside the 
'mold'.  Maybe that's what you want, is to take that further step. 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:40:28 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Shaggy 
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>    Although through the years Scooby-Doo (the show) continued on a 
> downhill slide until it became Shaggy, Scooby and Scrappy stumbling into 
> a random storefront, only to be chased by a monster for 22 minutes, 
> there was a comeback. 
 
	Gee, and I thought I was the only one to notice this. 
 
>    "A Pup Named Scooby-Doo" was an EXCELENT parody/homage to the 
> original series, starring all the 'kids' as kids.  I thoroughly abhor 
 
	Never watched it, actually. 
 
> the entire genre of the "___-kids" rash of several years ago, but this 
 
	I don't know -- Tiny Toons was hillarious, and Muppet Babies had 
some really good voice talents working on it, as well as the (quite) 
amusing movie clips. 
 
> show surpassed said shortcoming and shone out as a show which celebrated 
> all the good of Scooby-Doo and reveled in the genre of The Cartoon. 
 
	Hmmm.  I'll try to check it out.  At least that's some consolation 
after what they did to my Transformers.  (Beast Wars, shudder.) 
 
>    We now return you to your regularly scheduled RPG topic(s) 
 
	Yes, now we do. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:43:43 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures 
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> 
> >    I was wondering if anyone was interested in talking about their _role 
> >playing experiences_ in the Champions universe. How many people still play 
> >the 4-color brand of Champions? We used to play 4-color adventures for the 
> >longest time, until we got into a terrible rut- playing every tired cliche 
> >in the book 
> 
>      My advice: Watch the news and read the newspapers and get ideas from 
> there.  True, many ideas aren't really 4 colorish, but it can make for some 
> interesting Dark Champions adventures. In fact, I'm working on one such 
> idea as I write this. 
 
 
	Exactly.  One example, while not exactly Champions:  In a White 
Wolf Vampire campaign, the GM based a story around the crashing of that 
commuter plain a few years back in Gary, Indiana.  Something about some 
big inconnu thing. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 19:50:04 -0800 
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On Friday, December 05, 1997 1:36 PM, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>The fact that I am hanging in the air is not a special effect. 
Whatever is 
>keeping me that way is.  If you cannot detect what it is that is 
holding me 
>aloft, I need IPE on my Flight. 
 
Long ago, in the descriptions of special effects, Flight was 
specifically stated to be able to be a simple lifting into the air 
without visible support. This was not before IPE. 
 
As usual, they neglected to state whether or not this was the same in 
the new 4th Ed. rules. 
 
>Or can I get IPE for free on my Energy Blast?  I mean, you can see 
the 
>damage it does, and hear the breaking of things I hit, etc. 
 
Good point, but not quite the same. A key part of a visible EB is that 
it shows you clearly where it is coming from. This does not apply to 
flight. A Force Field with IPE has the advantage that your attackers 
do not know if you are protected or not at any moment. This, also, 
does not apply to flight. 
 
I don't necessarily disagree, but it isn't that cut and dried. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 21:52:13 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
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Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>  
>  
> As far as the wooshing goes, a glider might be a good example to consider. 
> I don't really have any firsthand experience with those, but my guess 
> would be that they don't really woosh. Of course, they're probably 
> relatively slow too. 
 
And, of course, Gliding normally costs no END, therefore is IPE by  
default.  My word!  Do you think that this may have been intentional? 
;-) 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 22:12:53 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
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qts wrote: 
>  
> On Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:40:29 -0500 (EST), Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>  
> >> >On a related topic, I have heard pretty convincing arguments that a 
> >> >human-sized object breaking the sound barrier would *not* cause a 
> >> >significant sonic boom  
 
[rejoinders omitted to save bandwidth] 
 
> >boom wouldn't do as much damage as a low flying jet, due to the lesser 
> >amount of displaced air? 
>  
> This depends upon how you define significant, then, I suppose. My take 
> is that if you *want* your hero to cause damage, just take a linked <g> 
> EB vs PD. OTOH if you want your PC to go supersonic without being 
> heard, you must take IPE: Hearing 
 
On the third hand, a sufficiently intense visible SFX can have measurable  
(albeit small) game effects.  Looking *directly* at a lightning bolt  
could result in spots in front of your eyes for a few seconds (1D6 Flash  
attack, only reduces CV/PER by 2.  A sonic boom can rattle teacups or  
break small fragile objects (1/2D6 EB, large Area of Effect). 
 
IMHO the intensity of the light, sound, etc. that a visible power  
produces increases monotonically (and often proportionately) with the  
active point total of the power.  Equivalently, from a game-balance  
perspective, I am willing to give people free side effects around 10% of  
the active total of the power in question.  These effects will generally  
be irrelevant to PCs, except as plot hooks, comic relief and the  
occasional creative use of powers, such as using a Sonic Boom to attack  
the Crystal Creature, which has a BODY Vulnerability to sonics. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters? 
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:57:58 -0800 
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On Sunday, December 07, 1997 12:41 PM, Rook wrote: 
 
 
>Hello; 
>    In my quest for info on Speedsters I have one more question. 
> 
>Are they any Speedsters published in any Champions books. So far I've 
>been unable to find any. 
> 
>Any edition of the game will do. 
 
 
The Great Supervillain Contest had The Dash, who was a speedster. He 
had an extremely small flying girlfriend named, I believe, Microwave. 
She liked to hide in his collar under his hair. If he got knocked out, 
she would fly him to safety. 
 
The book suggested that if a player asked, "How can I get flight that 
activates when I am unconscious and flies me to safety?" that the GM 
reply, "Ask The Dash" and grin evilly.<eg> 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition Hero Syste 
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 23:45:59 -0800 
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On Wednesday, December 03, 1997 6:17 PM, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
<snip> 
> 
>They do more BODY, comparable STUN, and get a form of AVLD for free. 
>Against that we have that they can't be spread which, on its own, 
isn't 
>even enough to merit a -1/4 Limitation. Doesn't seem balanced to me. 
 
In the Digital Heroes archives at the Hero Games website 
(www.herogames.com), there is an article on optional rules for EBs. 
For a +1/4 Advantage, they suggest that an EB can be exactly the same 
as it is now, but all damage is done as killing damage. For a -1/4 
Limitation, it loses the ability to bounce or spread, and this is 
supposed to balance it. The end result is supposed to be a EB that 
looses the "stun lottery" effect, but is otherwise equivalent to the 
present RKA (and the same price as a normal EB). 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony... 
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 23:48:13 -0800 
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On Sunday, December 07, 1997 4:09 PM, Case wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
> To be honest- I'm a little reluctant now...Everything I've typed has 
either 
>been shot done or insulted... 
>        :( 
> 
 
Don't give up. I don't think any real insult was intended. As for 
shooting things down, this list is good at that. The other poster 
didn't prove your ideas worthless, the poster just showed that _he_ 
didn't like your ideas. That doesn't change the fact that they are 
perfectly good ideas. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 23:53:52 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony... 
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Case wrote (albeit not in this order): 
 
>  To be honest- I'm a little reluctant now...Everything I've typed has either 
> been shot done or insulted... 
>         :( 
 
Oh, come on now!  I have been catching up on a thousand-message backlog and  
have just read this entire thread end-to-end.  Most of the comments that you  
have gotten strike me, an uninvolved observer, as respectful and potentially  
helpful.  I am not sure for what you were looking: it seems rather strange to  
put forth ideas for comment and criticism and then to expect only positive  
comments. 
 
 
> point I'm trying to make. Something must be done about the superhero 'mold'.==> my emphasis             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
 
Why *must* something be done?  Is this a moral obligation?  Is the entire hobby  
in danger of imminent collapse if we don't all immediately abandon our current  
methods of running campaigns and adopt your ideas?  Do you honestly believe  
that you are the first to propose transcending the boundaries of the genre  
conventions that you critique? 
 
When one places an imperative statement in the passive voice, as you did, most  
readers will interpret the writer as intending a universal imperative: a  
rallying cry and a moral demand for one and all to do a thing for the good of  
the community. 
 
	Something must be done to prevent nuclear war! 
	Something must be done to reduce racism in America! 
 
What I hope you meant to say was that *you* wish to get away from pure  
four-color adventures.  That is fine, and there is *plenty* of source material  
out there.  I would personally *choke* if I attempted to run a pure four-color  
campaign, although I can happily play in one.  Just remember that, whatever  
idea you propose, 1/3 of those who respond disagree on principle, 1/3 will have  
seen it before so often that they are bored with it, and the rest will like the  
idea, but will probably weigh in with ideas of their own or suggestions for  
improvements. 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 97 08:26:53 GMT 
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk 
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness) 
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters? 
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At 10:57 PM 7/12/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>The Great Supervillain Contest had The Dash, who was a speedster. He 
>had an extremely small flying girlfriend named, I believe, Microwave. 
>She liked to hide in his collar under his hair. If he got knocked out, 
>she would fly him to safety. 
 
The girlfriend was called The Dot, I think trying to get some relationship  
to the Morse Code......?? 
 
The Dash was the one I think of when I think of published speedsters.... 
 
>Filksinger 
 
 
Stephen 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 97 08:40:36 GMT 
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk 
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness) 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures 
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At 12:59 AM 7/12/97 -0500, Case wrote: 
>    I was wondering if anyone was interested in talking about their _role 
>playing experiences_ in the Champions universe. How many people still play 
>the 4-color brand of Champions? We used to play 4-color adventures for the 
>longest time, until we got into a terrible rut- playing every tired cliche 
>in the book 
 
Think of the problem that authors have. _Every_ story must have been done  
thousands of times, how do I sell this one?? Usually it's in the effects the  
plot has on the characters in the story. I don't think that your question  
has been phrased properly, you may think that the genre (four colour) is  
causing the problem when there is more that could be done to make the genre  
enjoyable. Obviously if you don't like four colour then you should not  
continue to play it, personally I don't like dark genres at all - so I don't  
play 'em. 
 
The best way to get out of the rut is to try to ensure that that your series  
of adventures become a campaign and that there seems to be logical and  
coherent thread running through all of the games. 
 
The hoary old hostage scenario can take on a whole new meaning when you  
actually care whether the hostage lives or dies, usually because you have  
invested time and effort into fleshing out the character, not because your  
disads tell you so. 
 
>From your postings over the weekend I'd say that (and this is pure  
speculation based on my own experience) your current game is _not_ campaign  
based though the same characters might be involved game after game and you  
don't enjoy the four colour stuff enough to try to make it so. You feel more  
enthused by the Dark Champions genre, so may be more inclined to make that  
work. I hope you do.  
 
There is nothing more enjoyable than a campaign game that works, where the  
characters become more than numbers on a sheet of paper, and you _know_  
hostage man will duck left because you _have_ done this so many times before! 
 
>        -CaseMan 
> 
 
Stephen 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:30:35 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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> I've been reading this and thinking hard about it (always a sign that I have  
> other _far_ more important things to be doing!!) and this gave me an idea.  
> In the comics there are usually drawn special effects, usually to try and  
> give you some idea that a power is being used. Other people often deduce the  
> nature of the powers even though there is no way you would normally think of  
> these things. Perhaps when you have a power then if it is not invisible and  
> you can't think of obvious special effects for all three senses then it  
> means it is subject to being worked out by _common_ _sense_, e.g., an INT  
> roll or something. 
 
	I like that. That's a cool idea. 
 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 05:35:14 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 10:41 AM 12/8/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>Maybe you've felt that way because you've applied it more strictly than 
>the writers intended. 
 
I apply it as it's written -- no more, no less.  If they intended it less 
strict, they should have written something else. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 06:07:17 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Shaggy 
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At 09:40 PM 12/7/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>>    "A Pup Named Scooby-Doo" was an EXCELENT parody/homage to the 
>> original series, starring all the 'kids' as kids.  I thoroughly abhor 
>> the entire genre of the "___-kids" rash of several years ago, but this 
> 
> I don't know -- Tiny Toons was hillarious, and Muppet Babies had 
>some really good voice talents working on it, as well as the (quite) 
>amusing movie clips. 
 
   Uh, just as a point of fact, the Tiny Toons aren't exactly part of this 
group, in that the characters aren't "younger" Bugs, Daffy, etc., but 
simply junior counterparts to the senior Loony Toons characters.  (I have a 
particular affection for Plucky Duck myself -- ironically, the Baby Plucky 
toons in particuarl.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 06:22:42 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight 
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At 11:21 AM 12/7/97 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>At 07:38 AM 12/6/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>   But that doesn't answer my question.  Apparently you misunderstood it, 
>>so I'll state it more specifically:  what real advantage, either combat or 
>>campaign oriented, does a character who flies by "force of will" have over 
>>one who, for example, is surrounded by little green spheres when he flies, 
>>especially in light of the brief discussion of Flight special effects under 
>>"Special Effects" in the "General Rules" section of "Powers" (HSR, p 53, 
>>first column, last paragraph)? 
> 
>1) For one example, see my comments in another post, where force of will 
>flight can be used to trick people into walking into a trap (quicksand that 
>Our Hero appears to be "standing" on). 
> 
>2) Here's another one: protecting secret IDs.  If Superman is pushed out a 
>window, he can use his flight to slow his fall and "catch" a convenient 
>outcropping -- "Lucky for you that ledge was there, Clark, you could have 
>been killed!"  Green Lantern tries the same trick, and everyone watching 
>knows he's Green Lantern, because he surrounds himself with that trademark 
>glowing green aura when he kicks in the flight. 
> 
>3) As Rat has pointed out a half-dozen times (frankly, IMO whenever Rat and 
>I actually AGREE on something, it should be taken as gospel ;] ;] ;]), the 
>distinction makes a big difference in terms of stealth issues.  Lots easier 
>for Maxima to sneak up on someone than Rocket Red. 
> 
>4) As Robert West illustrated in an incredibly well-written post, it also 
>makes a big difference to people trying to COUNTERACT those powers.  SFX 
>give clues to the mechanisms behind powers.  If I see someone flying with 
>wings, I'm going to think I can stop him from flying by 'clipping' them. 
>Rockets can be clogged, magnetic manipulation can be disrupted, etc.  But to 
>figure out these countermeasures, I have to be able to detect the measure in 
>the first place. 
> 
>I don't think there's really much question that the guy with force-of-will 
>flight is better off.  I will admit, it's debatable whether he's that MUCH 
>better off.  I've often felt that Invisible is rather overpriced, at least 
>in regard to non-attack/damaging/whathaveyou powers like movement modes. 
 
   Now, THAT not only answers my question (I'm still trying to figure out 
the "football team without a quarterback" remark you made previously), but 
it convinces me of your argument (and would have even without the help of 
other posters, including Robert). 
   Thank you.   :-] 
--- 
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   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 06:26:16 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re:  Re: Regenerating limbs 
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At 07:13 PM 12/7/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>At 06:49 PM 12/7/97 EST, Egyptoid wrote: 
>>In a message dated 12/6/97 10:06:37 PM, rholding@ActOnline.com.au wrote: 
>>>> I usually allow a +1/2 "House Rule" advantage, "Regrows Limbs," which can 
>>>> be applied to REC, Aid (with the Healing option), or Regeneration. 
>>>And this is written where?  Certainly not under the description of  
>>>regeneration in the BBB. 
>> 
>>I guess I missed the limb-severing portion of the damage rules. 
>>Shall I whip out my Role-Master crit conversions for Hero?   :) 
>> 
>Aah! Isn't this the system that, in a fist-fight, generally comes up with 
>"Black eye" as a result for every other punch?  My brother once got 3 of 
>'em in one fight... 
> 
>Oh, and the ever popular "Disemboweled" result... that one comes up a lot, 
>too, right? 
 
   You can certainly tell it's a fantasy game when someone gets three black 
eyes in a fistfight, but the other guy gets disemboweled. 
   And on another thread, someone had three hands!  (Sure, they're 
figurative hands, but still...) 
--- 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 06:28:00 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs 
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At 10:13 PM 12/8/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote: 
>-- Bob Greenwade wrote: 
><<Your bit>> 
>> >>    The last I saw, officially, no.  For character concepts that need 
this, 
>> >> I usually allow a +1/2 "House Rule" advantage, "Regrows Limbs," which 
can 
>> >> be applied to REC, Aid (with the Healing option), or Regeneration. 
>> ><<My bit>> 
>> >And this is written where?  Certainly not under the description of 
>> >regeneration in the BBB. 
>> <<Your bit, again>> 
>>    It's not written anywhere.  That's what makes it a house rule, Rick. 
> 
>Sorry, my fault.  The bit I was asking about was the no limb regeneration. 
 Your  
>+1/2 "regrows limbs" was clearly labeled as a house rule.  You said "The 
last I  
>saw, officially, no."  I was wanting to know where it had been made official. 
 
   Oh, sorry.  Shared fault there, actually. 
   I think this was in Third Edition Champions, and it may also be in the 
Champions FAQ (as I'm sure Rat and two or three others will either confirm 
or deny). 
--- 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 06:32:25 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs 
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At 10:34 PM 12/8/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote: 
>> Since humans do not, in most campaigns, routinely regrow limbs, this 
>> implies that the Transform in question is nor reversed by normal BODY 
>> recovery; therefore standard Regeneration would not work.  It would be 
>> perfectly appropriate to define a SFX for Regeneration that works against 
>> (and only against) Transforms that represent Amputations, and to require 
>> that all amputation Transforms include Regeneration/Limb as one of the 
>> reversal conditions. 
> 
> Humans do not, in most campaigns, regernerate limbs because nobody  
>looses them!  Okay, broad statement, I'll admit.  But I certainly have not  
>seen anybody lose a limb in the 10+ years that I have been playing. 
 
   I've seen it happen twice in 15 years. 
   Once, a Justice, Inc. character lost his left leg after it got shot, 
bitten, and spiked in three different encounters in one day.  (I'm actually 
not sure whether that leg could have been saved, though; he was being 
rushed to the hospital after the main body of the adventure was over, and 
the group never reconvened after that in spite of the fact that it's 
arguably the best adventure I've ever played in.) 
   The strangest ever, though, was the time that I, as GM, had the players 
surrounded by bandits.  Most of them were killed or captured, but one got 
away with the loss of his left arm.  Purely by the roll of the dice, I had 
introduced a literal one-armed bandit into my campaign. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 06:43:52 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 53 
 
At 06:43 PM 12/7/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>When I lost my only set of keys to a car I had just bought, I called a 
>locksmith. He took a blank key and a file, put the key in the lock, 
>wiggled it, examined the marks this made, and filed it with the 
>cylindrical file. 
> 
>It took two tries and probably twenty minutes, but the key works 
>perfectly. Better than most cheaply copied keys I've had made at the 
>local Fred Meyer store. (A local "has everything" store, like Walmart 
>but with a full grocery store as well.) 
 
   Well, now all Northwesterners on the list know that you're from the 
area; Fred Meyer stores are located throughout Oregon and Washington. 
   Trivium:  It's my understanding that the Fred Meyer department store 
here in Corvallis was the first store to put snacks, small gadgets, and 
popular weekly magazines at the checkstands.  If someone else has solid 
information that contradicts this, I'll take it, but I'm acquainted with a 
fellow who claims that it was actually his idea. 
 
>A West Coast ring a few years ago didn't have an unusual theft method, 
>but did have an unusual way of getting their money. They would steal 
>brand new luxury cars and strip them. The insurance would pay off the 
>car in full, and the stripped hulk would be sold at auction. They 
>would buy the car, and put the parts back on it. The sale made the VIN 
>clear and legal, so they could sell it at legit prices, instead of the 
>low prices that hot cars get because they can be spotted on a simple 
>traffic stop. 
 
   I encourage this line of conversation.  Please -- virtually every post 
here is adding something to TUSV! 
   Say, does anyone know offhand what the standard locations are for the 
VIN?  I know there's one on the dashboard, and I think there's one on the 
engine block... 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 06:45:51 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 01:09 PM 12/7/97 -0800, Rook wrote: 
>Hello; 
>    In my quest for info on Speedsters I have one more question. 
> 
>Are they any Speedsters published in any Champions books. So far I've 
>been unable to find any. 
> 
>Any edition of the game will do. 
 
   The ones I know of offhand: 
 
   Blue Streak, of Prism, in Champions Presents. 
   Rush, a Sanctuary staffer, originally in Neutral Ground and updated 
(though deceased) in Classic Organizations. 
   Fast Forward, of the Cyberknights, in Allies (fastest ever published for 
Champions). 
   Vibron, in Classic Enemies (a low-level speedster, but he technically 
qualifies). 
   Minute Man, of GOSH Team D, in Golden Age Champions. 
   Veltro, of the Italian Legion, also in Golden Age Champions. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Reply-To: "Jeff Tolle" <Trigon@msn.com> 
From: "Jeff Tolle" <trigon@email.msn.com> 
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters? 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:10:13 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
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So.... 
 
I guess there is a Mrs.. Dash!!!! 
 
Sorry 
 
Jeff Tolle 
 
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: Monday, December 08, 1997 3:20 AM 
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters? 
 
 
>On Sunday, December 07, 1997 12:41 PM, Rook wrote: 
> 
> 
>>Hello; 
>>    In my quest for info on Speedsters I have one more question. 
>> 
>>Are they any Speedsters published in any Champions books. So far I've 
>>been unable to find any. 
>> 
>>Any edition of the game will do. 
> 
> 
>The Great Supervillain Contest had The Dash, who was a speedster. He 
>had an extremely small flying girlfriend named, I believe, Microwave. 
>She liked to hide in his collar under his hair. If he got knocked out, 
>she would fly him to safety. 
> 
>The book suggested that if a player asked, "How can I get flight that 
>activates when I am unconscious and flies me to safety?" that the GM 
>reply, "Ask The Dash" and grin evilly.<eg> 
> 
>Filksinger 
> 
> 
 
 
 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:14:35 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
>   Greetings, list lurkers and readers. I wanted to introduce myself briefly. I 
> am Mark Arsenault, head of Gold Rush Games. As we're getting geared up to 
> release San Angelo: City of Heroes (the first paper supplement for Champions 
> 4th Ed in a loooong time) I thought I would get on this list and get some 
> feedback from you folks. 
>  
>   Specifically, I am wondering if anyone here downloaded the SA:CoH preview 
> chapters. If so, are there any comments? Or any questions of me regarding this 
> new product line? 
>  
	Well, I haven't downloaded it myself. But I do have a few comments 
and questions. 
 
	The first is a general one. 
 
1. Where have you people been? I haven't seen any Hero, GRG, or Atlas people 
	in here since Fuzion came out. It's like we were totally abandoned. 
	I understand and accept the 'support is in the form of PDF files 
	thing'. Though I don't like it... But to totally disapear from Hero's 
	public forum looks pretty bad. And then to only re-appear in order 
	to promote new products is even worse. I'm more concerned with 
	Steve P.'s lack of presense than yours. But I assumed when joining 
	here that it would be a good place to get 'official' answers. Yet 
	it's been a void. 
 
Now on to your product: 
 
2. So it's a fictional city. Would you say it's got a more Marvel, DC, or 
	Image feel to it? When I think fictional cities my mind thinks 
	4-color DC. 
 
3. Totally new Universe? In this 'verse there's no "Hudson City" off in another 
	state somewhere? (like Metropolis and Gotham). 
 
4. Is this the beginning of something (providing sales justify)? Or a 
	one-shot Tangent Universe like Strike Force was? 
 
5. What kind of power level will it go for? 
 
On to your Hero License: 
 
6. Do you or anybody else hold the rights to print more BBB's when the 
	current stock runs out? 
 
7. How is that current stock doing? Are there still many copies available? 
 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:24:26 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Robert A. West wrote: 
 
> Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
> >  
> > As far as the wooshing goes, a glider might be a good example to consider. 
> > I don't really have any firsthand experience with those, but my guess 
> > would be that they don't really woosh. Of course, they're probably 
> > relatively slow too. 
>  
> And, of course, Gliding normally costs no END, therefore is IPE by  
> default.  My word!  Do you think that this may have been intentional? 
> ;-) 
>  
 
Actually, no. Powered flight wouldn't be the determining factor for a 
wooshing noise, as I understand it. While at times a gliding object might 
be going the same speed as the wind, and hence not woosh at all, at times 
the power is coming from momentum and/or gravity, making the glider move 
much faster than the surrounding air. 
 
It seems to me that size and speed are the determining factors for 
whooshing. Why should a character Flying at 10" per phase make any more 
noise than a character Gliding at 10", if his thrust is silent? 
 
As I said, I don't have any good firsthand experience with gliders. It 
wouldn't surprise me if up close one might hear a little noise coming from 
one, but I doubt you'd hear much very far away. 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:32:15 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 55 
 
>>>A character who falls off a moving vehicle roll the damage  
>>>as though the vehicle had done a Move By on him 
 
>>What if the vehicle is going non-combat? Have you decided on the 
>>non-combat move by and move through rules? 
 
>Oh, and Move Bys and Move Throughs at noncombat speeds are handled just 
>like normal Move Bys and Move Throughs, except that OCV and DCV are  
>halved (or DCV determined by velocity) before any other modifiers. 
 
I was asking more about the damage from NCM slams... 
 
A vehicle with 30" and 32xNCM is moving at full NCM speed and slams 
right into a building. How much damage does the vehicle (and the 
building) take? Is it 10d6? 320d6? Something else? 
 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 97 15:40:34 GMT 
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk 
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness) 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 11:21 AM 12/7/97 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>4) As Robert West illustrated in an incredibly well-written post, it also 
>makes a big difference to people trying to COUNTERACT those powers.  SFX 
>give clues to the mechanisms behind powers.  If I see someone flying with 
>wings, I'm going to think I can stop him from flying by 'clipping' them. 
>Rockets can be clogged, magnetic manipulation can be disrupted, etc.  But to 
>figure out these countermeasures, I have to be able to detect the measure in 
>the first place. 
 
I've been reading this and thinking hard about it (always a sign that I have  
other _far_ more important things to be doing!!) and this gave me an idea.  
In the comics there are usually drawn special effects, usually to try and  
give you some idea that a power is being used. Other people often deduce the  
nature of the powers even though there is no way you would normally think of  
these things. Perhaps when you have a power then if it is not invisible and  
you can't think of obvious special effects for all three senses then it  
means it is subject to being worked out by _common_ _sense_, e.g., an INT  
roll or something. 
 
 
Just a thought...... 
 
 
 
Stephen 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:41:39 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
> At 07:38 AM 12/6/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
> 1) For one example, see my comments in another post, where force of will 
> flight can be used to trick people into walking into a trap (quicksand that 
> Our Hero appears to be "standing" on). 
> 
Yes, this is an advantage to force of will flight. On the other hand, a 
glowing flyer might be able to trick someone into believing they have a 
force field, or are radioactive. They also might be able to see a little 
in a dark room. The benefits of special effects. 
  
> 2) Here's another one: protecting secret IDs.  If Superman is pushed out a 
> window, he can use his flight to slow his fall and "catch" a convenient 
> outcropping -- "Lucky for you that ledge was there, Clark, you could have 
> been killed!"  Green Lantern tries the same trick, and everyone watching 
> knows he's Green Lantern, because he surrounds himself with that trademark 
> glowing green aura when he kicks in the flight. 
>  
 
I don't know about Kyle, but Hal didn't have to glow when he flew, and 
often didn't. The glowing was generally his force field. (Of course, there 
is that OIF to consider.) This is a good example to support my point that 
most comics flyers don't have visible effects on their flight.  
 
>  
> I don't think there's really much question that the guy with force-of-will 
> flight is better off.  I will admit, it's debatable whether he's that MUCH 
> better off.  I've often felt that Invisible is rather overpriced, at least 
> in regard to non-attack/damaging/whathaveyou powers like movement modes. 
>  
 
Maybe you've felt that way because you've applied it more strictly than 
the writers intended. I don't dispute that there are some minor advantages 
to force of will flight (though there can be minor advantages to any 
special effect.) I simply don't believe the advantages are worth charging 
for, especially when it could hurt the feel of the genre. 
 
I have a question for the strict IPE for force-of-will flight GM's. In 
games where you require this, do many people buy IPE? Or do most people 
choose to glow (or whatever)? 
 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Making the Speedster 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:46:04 -0500 
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My time control article at 
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/1905/haym12.html has various 
speedster tricks included, and a character write-up. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:46:41 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 57 
 
 
 
On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Robert A. West wrote: 
 
> qts wrote: 
> >  
> > On Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:40:29 -0500 (EST), Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
> >  
> > >> >On a related topic, I have heard pretty convincing arguments that a 
> > >> >human-sized object breaking the sound barrier would *not* cause a 
> > >> >significant sonic boom  
>  
> [rejoinders omitted to save bandwidth] 
>  
> > >boom wouldn't do as much damage as a low flying jet, due to the lesser 
> > >amount of displaced air? 
> >  
> > This depends upon how you define significant, then, I suppose. My take 
> > is that if you *want* your hero to cause damage, just take a linked <g> 
> > EB vs PD. OTOH if you want your PC to go supersonic without being 
> > heard, you must take IPE: Hearing 
>  
> On the third hand, a sufficiently intense visible SFX can have measurable  
> (albeit small) game effects.  Looking *directly* at a lightning bolt  
> could result in spots in front of your eyes for a few seconds (1D6 Flash  
> attack, only reduces CV/PER by 2.  A sonic boom can rattle teacups or  
> break small fragile objects (1/2D6 EB, large Area of Effect). 
>  
 
Absolutely. Moreover, sonic booms can be as much a disadvantage as an 
advantage. If Superman causes a sonic boom every time he goes supersonic, 
he's not likely to do that on the streets of Metropolis. If the Flash 
does, he's in *big* trouble. 
 
 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:47:18 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 59 
 
>Say, does anyone know offhand what the standard locations are for the 
>VIN?  I know there's one on the dashboard, and I think there's one on  
>the engine block... 
 
Some cars have one on the inside of the car door. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:24:39 -0500 (EST) 
From: Mikhael Bornstein - AERE/W94 <mbornste@acs.ryerson.ca> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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I don't think that anyone has mentioned Gazelle and Lightspeed from  
Champions of the North. 
 
Mikhael 
 
 
On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Rook wrote: 
 
> Hello; 
>     In my quest for info on Speedsters I have one more question. 
>  
> Are they any Speedsters published in any Champions books. So far I've 
> been unable to find any. 
>  
> Any edition of the game will do. 
>  
>  
> -- 
> Rook 
>  
> Super Hero Links Page: 
> http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
>  
> My Champions Webpage is at: 
> http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
> Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
> http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
>  
>  
>  
 
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 08:38:55 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Rick Holding wrote: 
>  
> -- Robert A. West wrote: 
> > 
> > Rick Holding wrote: 
> > > 
> > > Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> > > > 
> > > > At 09:59 AM 12/6/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
> > > > > Do characters with regeneration regenerate limbs? . . . 
> > > > 
> > > >    The last I saw, officially, no.  . . . 
> > > 
> > > And this is written where?  Certainly not under the description of 
> > > regeneration in the BBB. 
> > 
> > Actually, the point is that the book says nowhere that Regeneration can 
> > regrow limbs.  Powers do what they are stated to do, modulo special 
> > effects. 
> >       Can not the loss of a limb be represented by loss of body points? 
 
IMHO, no, on multiple grounds.  First, I don't see why a person minus an  
arm should be any easier to kill than a normal person.  If you blow off  
my arm, I will likely go into shock and die, but if I survive, the  
overall system integrity that keeps me alive will be fairly unimpaired.   
Second, on game balance grounds, should a character lose a limb, I would  
not want to impose the double penalty of losing BODY points as well.   
Third, all the hit location mechanisms (BODYx, Impairing, Disabling)  
on pp. 163-5 are based on the affected area's taking a portion of the  
character's *total* BODY, not of an assigned fraction as in Runequest and  
similar systems.  IMHO, there is an attempt being made to distinguish  
between "sectional" BODY and "systemic" BODY.  Fourth, although disabling  
wounds to the chest and head list permanent CHAR losses as an effect,  
none are listed for limbs. 
 
Thus, I would hold that a Drain BODY cannot be used for this purpose.   
Drain Movement might have an SFX of injuring a leg, but severing the  
limb is not generally a reasonable special effect, unless regrowing limbs  
is an everyman power. 
 
> > Since humans do not, in most campaigns, routinely regrow limbs . . . 
>  
>         Humans do not, in most campaigns, regernerate limbs because nobody 
> looses them!  Okay, broad statement, I'll admit.  But I certainly have not 
> seen anybody lose a limb in the 10+ years that I have been playing. 
 
You have never seen an amputee as an NPC?  Never seen a PC take amputee  
as a Physical Limitation?  Never had a touching scene visiting a victim  
of the MultiBomber who lost a hand, eye or fingers?  Do these people  
regrow their limbs from ordinary healing?  Assuming that the same healing  
rules apply, in principle, to NPCs as to PCs, I think that my statement  
is fair and true. 
 
As for my point about Transform being the "only way under standard rules"  
to represent limb loss, I should have clarified that statement as  
"standard Superhero rules," since I believe that Disabling is an option  
not normally recommended for Superhero campaigns, except as a way to get  
the agents out of the way faster. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:42:16 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Shaggy 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> >>    "A Pup Named Scooby-Doo" was an EXCELENT parody/homage to the 
> >> original series, starring all the 'kids' as kids.  I thoroughly abhor 
> >> the entire genre of the "___-kids" rash of several years ago, but this 
> > 
> > I don't know -- Tiny Toons was hillarious, and Muppet Babies had 
> >some really good voice talents working on it, as well as the (quite) 
> >amusing movie clips. 
>  
>    Uh, just as a point of fact, the Tiny Toons aren't exactly part of this 
> group, in that the characters aren't "younger" Bugs, Daffy, etc., but 
> simply junior counterparts to the senior Loony Toons characters. 
 
Depends on how narrowly you define "this group", I suppose. I'd be 
inclined to lump them all together, myself, even if they aren't 
technically comparable. 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:46:57 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Case wrote: 
 
> >>(b) Correctional officers are in charge of transporting a superpowered 
> >>pyromanic across country. Funny thing is, the pyromanic doesn't want out- 
> >>he NEEDS to get to Florida in one piece to recue his lover at the Dade 
> >>County Stronghold... 
> >> 
> >I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is much of a plot hook.  Are the 
> >players the guards?  If so, how do they get drawn into the intrigue?  I can 
> >see them sitting on their rears eating donuts, guarding a guy who isn't 
> >going to escape...  maybe once they get there? 
 
>  Of course you don't see a plot hook. You don't want to. Why are you 
> slamming me? 
 
Huh? With all due respect, if you can read that message as a "slam", I 
don't think you're really in a position to talk about other people only 
seeing what they want to. 
 
>  To be honest- I'm a little reluctant now...Everything I've typed has either 
> been shot done or insulted... 
 
I haven't seen either of these things happen. 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 08:48:25 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:32 AM 12/8/97 -0500, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>>>>A character who falls off a moving vehicle roll the damage  
>>>>as though the vehicle had done a Move By on him 
> 
>>>What if the vehicle is going non-combat? Have you decided on the 
>>>non-combat move by and move through rules? 
> 
>>Oh, and Move Bys and Move Throughs at noncombat speeds are handled just 
>>like normal Move Bys and Move Throughs, except that OCV and DCV are  
>>halved (or DCV determined by velocity) before any other modifiers. 
> 
>I was asking more about the damage from NCM slams... 
> 
>A vehicle with 30" and 32xNCM is moving at full NCM speed and slams 
>right into a building. How much damage does the vehicle (and the 
>building) take? Is it 10d6? 320d6? Something else? 
 
   It will probably do the DEF+BODY of the building, up to 320d6.  (In 
other words, use the real velocity, not the combat velocity.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:01:55 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Help!!! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> > 	I am needing 3 npcs for a game. One must be a Blaster, other a velocist 
> > and the third a sorcerer. 
>  
> Uh... what is a 'velocist'? 
 
Presumably he means what's commonly referred to as a "speedster".  
 
> BTW: Rafael, if you have web access (or even access to Lynx)  
 
Bit of an odd phrase, that. If he has access to Lynx, then by definition 
he has web access. 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Re: Regenerating limbs 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:03:15 +0000 (GMT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> But was the guy who got disemboweled able to regenerate that damage? 
> 
	Given the views held on regeneration, and how un-comic book they seem 
to be... I'd say no. 
	He recovered all the body but is missing his guts, yet able to live. 
After all, it's a lost organ. And "Humans don't normally regrow lost" organs. 
	Never mind that Humans don't normally regenerate. 
 
I think the whole regeneration topic is a special effects topic. 
 
No-where in the rules does it say regeneration DOESN'T regenerate the body. 
 
 
> >>Oh, and the ever popular "Disemboweled" result... that one comes up a lot, 
> >>too, right? 
> > 
> >   You can certainly tell it's a fantasy game when someone gets three black 
> >eyes in a fistfight, but the other guy gets disemboweled. 
> >   And on another thread, someone had three hands!  (Sure, they're 
> >figurative hands, but still...) 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:09:22 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Case wrote: 
 
>     I was wondering if anyone was interested in talking about their _role 
> playing experiences_ in the Champions universe. How many people still play 
> the 4-color brand of Champions? 
 
My campaigns are generally not coherent enough to be classed into a 
sub-genre.:) 
 
> We used to play 4-color adventures for the longest time, until we got into a 
> terrible rut- playing every tired cliche in the book 
>         1) You walk into a bank, cashing a check, when suddenly... 
>         2) The government has called you all into this meeting because we 
> have a top-secret mission that only YOU can handle, or course, if you are 
> caught we will deny everyth... 
 
Is this a cliche of the 4-colour genre? I would think it would seem 
terribly out of place in said genre - it's more a cliche of the espionage 
genre, possibly useful as a change of pace for a somewhat darkly-toned 
superhero genre. 
 
>         3) We must raid the super high-tech enemy complex, to 
>             (a) rescue the hostage(s) 
>             (b) stop the doomsday 
> device/nuclear/biological/chemical/mechanical weapon 
>             (c) destroy it. 
>             (d) steal back the plans/equipment 
>             (e) Kill the evil, vile, manical leader 
 
Definitely out of place for 4-colour supers IMO. You could change it to 
capturing the evil, vile, maniacal leader, maybe, but to be honest I 
can't think of all that many examples of complex-raiding at all in said 
genre.  
 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:10:29 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re:  Re: Characteristics 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> >> >Cumulative? On Mind Control? Does that really belong in a paragraph 
> >> >allegedly describing the by-the-book rules? 
> >>  
> >>    See The Ultimate Mentalist, page 77. 
> > 
> >Can't, I've never seen a copy of said book. The contents of the Ultimate 
> >books really don't count as part of the "book rules" anyway, IMO. 
>  
>    But at least what I was citing was by *a* book.  You application of 
> Armor Piercing PRE cutting PRE in half for purposes of effect, and Armor 
> Piercing Mental Powers cutting EGO in half for purposes of effect, is not. 
 
Eh? I think you have me confused with someone else. 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:24:34 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Help? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Todd Hanson wrote: 
 
> > If I were building a pro-wrestler, I'd probably buy extra DCs with a 
> > Limitation giving an OCV penalty proportional to the number used. The DCs 
> > activated would simulate the magnitude of the move being used. 
>  
> You're missing the point entirely.  The object wasn't to make pro wrestling as 
> realistic as possible, 
 
Well, obviously not - that would require completely redefining the 
genre.:) Make pro wrestling realistic and you've just got martial arts. 
 
> it was to allow a character to be a colorful pro wrestler/superhero. 
 
But IMO, having moves of different magnitudes - with the lesser moves used 
to set one's opponent up for the bigger ones - is fairly integral to the 
pro wrestling genre; I'd want to make sure a pro wrestler character 
reflects this. 
 
> It doesn't matter what you CALL the move - what matters is the effect.  I 
> can say I'm using a headbutt or a forearm or kick to the chin - it's still 
> my martial strike.  I hit him, I do damage.  If I say I'm using a bodyslam 
> or an arm drag or a hurricarana, the result is still the same - I damage my 
> opponent and put him on the ground. 
 
By the same token, one could say that Johnny Storm's regular fire blasts 
and his Nova Blast have the same effect, but I wouldn't respect a 
character write-up which only gave him one attack and chalked the 
difference up to special effects. 
 
> If the special effects of the move say I should also hit the ground, 
> then special effects say I hop back to my feet before anybody takes 
> advantage of my position (wrestlers do it all the time) 
 
OTOH, it's not unheard of for wrestlers to be attacked before getting up 
from such moves. Possibly Breakfall would be a better way of simulating 
this? 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:27:46 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re:  Re: Characteristics 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
> > > >Cumulative? On Mind Control? Does that really belong in a paragraph 
> > > >allegedly describing the by-the-book rules? 
> > > 
> > >    See The Ultimate Mentalist, page 77. 
> > 
> > Can't, I've never seen a copy of said book. The contents of the Ultimate 
> > books really don't count as part of the "book rules" anyway, IMO. 
>  
> 	Actually, they've basically become accepted as such, 
 
By whom? 
 
> mostly because they expand on areas that were under explained and under 
> fleshed-out in the BBB.  In this case, then example of a mind control that 
> slowly affects it's target -- a valid SFX in the source material, but not 
> doable in Hero. 
 
Trivial to do in Hero. Just put a Limitation on the upper levels of your 
Mind Control which states that it only kicks in after a certain number of 
uses. 
 
From: "VANSICKLE, James" <jvansickle@shl.com> 
Subject: RE: Re: Regenerating limbs 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:57:23 -0600 
Encoding: 39 TEXT 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 64 
 
But was the guy who got disemboweled able to regenerate that damage? 
 
>---------- 
>From: 	Bob Greenwade[SMTP:bob.greenwade@klock.com] 
>Sent: 	Monday, December 08, 1997 12:50 PM 
>To: 	champ-l@omg.org 
>Subject: 	Re:  Re: Regenerating limbs 
> 
>At 07:13 PM 12/7/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>>At 06:49 PM 12/7/97 EST, Egyptoid wrote: 
>>>In a message dated 12/6/97 10:06:37 PM, rholding@ActOnline.com.au wrote: 
>>>>> I usually allow a +1/2 "House Rule" advantage, "Regrows Limbs," which 
>>>>>can 
>>>>> be applied to REC, Aid (with the Healing option), or Regeneration. 
>>>>And this is written where?  Certainly not under the description of  
>>>>regeneration in the BBB. 
>>> 
>>>I guess I missed the limb-severing portion of the damage rules. 
>>>Shall I whip out my Role-Master crit conversions for Hero?   :) 
>>> 
>>Aah! Isn't this the system that, in a fist-fight, generally comes up with 
>>"Black eye" as a result for every other punch?  My brother once got 3 of 
>>'em in one fight... 
>> 
>>Oh, and the ever popular "Disemboweled" result... that one comes up a lot, 
>>too, right? 
> 
>   You can certainly tell it's a fantasy game when someone gets three black 
>eyes in a fistfight, but the other guy gets disemboweled. 
>   And on another thread, someone had three hands!  (Sure, they're 
>figurative hands, but still...) 
>--- 
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
>   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
>Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
>   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
> 
> 
> 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:52:35 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Monday, December 08, 1997 6:44 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
<snip> 
>   I encourage this line of conversation.  Please -- virtually every 
post 
>here is adding something to TUSV! 
>   Say, does anyone know offhand what the standard locations are for 
the 
>VIN?  I know there's one on the dashboard, and I think there's one on 
the 
>engine block... 
 
Dashboard and  car door frames on some models, I believe. The engine 
block number tags the engine, but 
not the vehicle. Otherwise, any car with a new engine would have two 
VINs. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 15:53:15 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:48 AM 12/8/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>At 10:32 AM 12/8/97 -0500, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>>>Oh, and Move Bys and Move Throughs at noncombat speeds are handled just 
>>>like normal Move Bys and Move Throughs, except that OCV and DCV are  
>>>halved (or DCV determined by velocity) before any other modifiers. 
>> 
>>I was asking more about the damage from NCM slams... 
>> 
>>A vehicle with 30" and 32xNCM is moving at full NCM speed and slams 
>>right into a building. How much damage does the vehicle (and the 
>>building) take? Is it 10d6? 320d6? Something else? 
> 
>   It will probably do the DEF+BODY of the building, up to 320d6.  (In 
>other words, use the real velocity, not the combat velocity.) 
> 
Are you going to introduce "Confetti" rules like those in Car Wars?  I 
don't remember the exact formula, but it was that if a vehicle took a 
certain amount of damage (a certain fraction of its weight) it would be 
reduced instantly to rubble, to be dropped from 12" above the playing 
surface, to allow scattering.  : )  I think 320d6 would probably do it... 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: urklore@pop.tiac.net (Unverified) 
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 16:03:46 -0500 
From: Urklore The Iron <urklore@tiac.net> 
Subject: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
The link is a 1/2 disadvantage, but is it really? 
 
Let's say I want to have a Hero who wields twin UZIs. Each has a 5-shot 
Autofire. Normally he would have one and only fire 5 shots, if I put a link 
disadvantage to one of the guns and link it to the main gun. We now have an 
attack that can do TWO 5-shot autofires!! At a reduced point cost on the 
second power to boot!!! Does anyone see a problem with this. 
Another example is I could have a 12d6 photon blast, and link a 3d6 flash 
to it as well. Now we have a 12d6 EB along with a 3d6 flash (even though it 
does require another hit roll) that can be done all in one phase.  
************************************************************************ 
* Bill Schwartz, Billcutis of Borg, Iceman Incarnate, Internet Lord    * 
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* Visit my lair brave adventurer @ http://www.anime-adventurers.com    * 
************************************************************************ 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:07:29 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Shaggy 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> > I don't know -- Tiny Toons was hillarious, and Muppet Babies had 
> >some really good voice talents working on it, as well as the (quite) 
> >amusing movie clips. 
> 
>    Uh, just as a point of fact, the Tiny Toons aren't exactly part of this 
> group, in that the characters aren't "younger" Bugs, Daffy, etc., but 
> simply junior counterparts to the senior Loony Toons characters.  (I have a 
 
	Hmmm.  Well, maybe, but they were clearly designed as younger 
"stand-ins".  Perhaps a bit more classy than actually having the 
characters be younger, true.  So what other "-baby" shows were there?  I 
can't think of any besides the already mentioned. 
 
> particular affection for Plucky Duck myself -- ironically, the Baby Plucky 
> toons in particuarl.) 
 
	He is rather funny, isn't he.  I liked the Tiny Toons/Anamaniacs 
crossover with Mindy and Elmira myself. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:09:43 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
>    The ones I know of offhand: 
> 
>    Blue Streak, of Prism, in Champions Presents. 
 
	Arggh!  I hate this one -- I had my own named "Bluestreak" long 
before picking up this product. 
 
>    Rush, a Sanctuary staffer, originally in Neutral Ground and updated 
> (though deceased) in Classic Organizations. 
>    Fast Forward, of the Cyberknights, in Allies (fastest ever published for 
> Champions). 
>    Vibron, in Classic Enemies (a low-level speedster, but he technically 
> qualifies). 
>    Minute Man, of GOSH Team D, in Golden Age Champions. 
>    Veltro, of the Italian Legion, also in Golden Age Champions. 
 
	In Champions of the North is Gazelle, who is quite fast, and maybe 
another.  I'll look around and try to find more. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:44:46 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>A vehicle with 30" and 32xNCM is moving at full NCM speed and slams 
>>right into a building. How much damage does the vehicle (and the 
>>building) take? Is it 10d6? 320d6? Something else? 
 
>It will probably do the DEF+BODY of the building, up to 320d6.  (In 
>other words, use the real velocity, not the combat velocity.) 
 
I don't really like that ruling (nothing against you, I've seen it in 
other games and didn't like it then either).  
 
For one, since movement is linear and damage is supposed to be 
exponential, they don't jibe well. What I mean is that a 10d6 blast or 
punch is defined as being twice as powerful as a 9d6 blast or punch. But 
with a move through, the dice are linear, and the difference between a 
10d6 and a 9d6 move through is only a linear 3". 
 
How about I define a vehicle (missile) with 30" flight, and 32xNCM. I 
also buy 320 DEF for it (say what?!?). Or else I say it's an unbreakable 
focus made from Impervium, the indestructible metal. This missile can 
now destroy the earth with a move through. And actually, it would only 
need 1 DEF higher than the earth's body, whatever that is. 
 
I've been considering changing Hero non-combat move throughs to doing 
their normal combat move through damage plus 1d6 per NCM, so the 30" 
with 32xNCM would do 10d6+32d6. It sounds more reasonable for those who 
allow non-combat move throughs in their games (I don't), but I haven't 
playtested it yet. 
 
 
>It will probably do the DEF+BODY of the building, up to 320d6.  (In 
 
Oh yeah, shouldn't that be the lesser of the DEF+BODY of the building 
and the vehicle? 
 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:45:59 EST 
Subject: Greetings 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
  Greetings, list lurkers and readers. I wanted to introduce myself briefly. I 
am Mark Arsenault, head of Gold Rush Games. As we're getting geared up to 
release San Angelo: City of Heroes (the first paper supplement for Champions 
4th Ed in a loooong time) I thought I would get on this list and get some 
feedback from you folks. 
 
  Specifically, I am wondering if anyone here downloaded the SA:CoH preview 
chapters. If so, are there any comments? Or any questions of me regarding this 
new product line? 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:54:22 -0600 (CST) 
Subject: Any Published Champions Speedsters? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
There's the guy in High-Tech Enemies, I just don't remember the name 
right now. 
 
Velocity ?   Impulse ? 
 
Curt Hicks 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:22:35 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re:  Re: Characteristics 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
> > 	Actually, they've basically become accepted as such, 
> 
> By whom? 
 
	Most players, GMs, etc that I know, and many of the same of those 
I talk to.  Like I said, they are accepted as official "book" rules, but 
not, of course, "core" rules.  I.e, they are not in the one main book, so 
you can't expect everyone to know them and may be expected to explain them 
when using them. 
 
> 
> > mostly because they expand on areas that were under explained and under 
> > fleshed-out in the BBB.  In this case, then example of a mind control that 
> > slowly affects it's target -- a valid SFX in the source material, but not 
> > doable in Hero. 
> 
> Trivial to do in Hero. Just put a Limitation on the upper levels of your 
> Mind Control which states that it only kicks in after a certain number of 
> uses. 
 
	Yuck.  That's not what I call trivial. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Archer and Speedster 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:23:55 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I sent these earlier to Raf, who asked for a blaster and a speedster, 
and I'm sending them to the list now, too, so y'all can go ballistic and 
pick 'em apart... :) 
 
-- 
 
Here's two of my favorite characters: a blaster (Night Archer) and a 
speedster (The Flash). 
 
 
Night Archer 
 
Chars:	97 
Equip: 	63 
Skills: 	90 
Total: 	250 
Base: 	100 
Disads:	150 
 
15 STR  5 
18 DEX 24 
15 CON 10 
15 BOD 10 
18 INT  8 
18 EGO 16 
15 PRE  5 
15 COM  2 
 7 PD   5 
 6 ED   3 
 4 SPD 12 
 6 REC 
30 END 
30 STN 
 
20 Normal Maxima  
5 Age 47  
15 Secret ID  
5 Rich Rival  
5 Bad Heart (infrequent, slightly)  
10 Dep: Medicine (4d6 daily)  
10 DNPC Nurse 8-  
10 Watched by Police 14- (less powerful, NCI)  
15 Rep: ex-Villain, 11- extreme  
20 H: HOHOs 14- (as powerful)  
10 Dislikes Supers (common, moderate)  
15 Honorable (common, strong)  
10 Style: Commando	 
 
Equipment			 END/Charges 
22	Bow & Arrow Multipower (OAF: Bow & Arrow)		 
2u	Bow as Staff: Full Missile Deflection, 5d6 Hand-to-Hand Attack, 
1" Stretching	2E	 
2u	Sheaf Arrows: 2d6 AP RKA (recoverable)	8c	 
2u	Flame Arrows: 1d6+1 RKA (last 1 turn until put out)	6c	 
2u	Poison Arrows: 3d6 NND (last 1 turn until  phase Paramedics 
roll)	4c	 
2u	Immobilizing Arrows: 1d6 Drain versus STR and Movement (last 1 
minute until bound with  phase Paramedics roll)	4c	 
2u	Sleep Agent Arrows: 3d6 STUN Drain (last 1 turn until  phase 
Paramedics roll)	8c	 
1u	Hallucinogenic Arrows: 9d6 Mental Illusions CON-Based (last 
until a CON roll is made)	4c	 
1u	Skilled Shot: 30 STR Telekinesis ( DCV,  Can't do damage) 
8c	 
			 
7	+5 DEF Armor (OIF: Kevlar, Activation 14-)		 
2	Visual Flash Defense (OAF: Night Visor)		 
2	Ultraviolet Vision (OAF: Night Visor)		 
			 
7	Utility Belt Multipower (OAF: Utility Belt)		 
1u	Radios: HRRH usable by 1 other		 
1u	Telescope: +10 Telescopic Sight		 
1u	Smoke Bombs: 1" Darkness to normal & IR vision, last 1 minute 
4c	 
1u	Light: Change Environment @ 0 END		 
1u	Suction Cups: Clinging, usable by 1 other		 
1u	Gas Masks: LS: Self-Contained Breathing, usable by 1 other 
 
1u	Mini-Chute: 15" Gliding	1rc	 
1u	Steroids: 3d6 Aid STR	8c	 
1u	Antidote: 5d6 Dispel Poison	8c	 
 
Skills					  Roll 
2	+1" Running		 
12	+4 w/ Bow & Arrows		 
20	+2 Overall		 
15	Commando Training		 
	Cross	-2	+1	10d6		 
	Throw	+0	+1	8d6+v/5; Target Falls		 
	Block	+2	+2			 
	Disarm	-1	+1	25 STR		 
			 
3	Tactics	13-	 
3	Acrobatics	13-	 
3	Breakfall	13-	 
3	Climbing	13-	 
3	High Society	12-	 
3	Gambling	11-	 
3	Streetwise	12-	 
2	K: Archery	11-	 
2	Toxicology	11-	 
3	Stealth	13-	 
3	Concealment	13-	 
3	Paramedic	13-	 
2	K: Martial Arts	11-	 
 
Background: Night Archer used to be the leader of a villain group, the 
Honorable Order of Humans Only (HOHO) - a group of trained and 
gadget-monger normals who desired purity of the species. After six years 
of battling superhumans, his heart gave out during a battle. His 
followers fled, and he was taken to the hospital by the supers. He died 
on the way to the hospital, but was revived by a healing hero and the 
talented medical staff. 
 
After his death experience, Night Archer turned a new leaf (and state's 
evidence). Some of the most powerful HOHOs were put away, and Night 
Archer is now tactical leader for the local hero group (as part of his 
probation). He makes certain that the supers don't rely on only their 
powers for success, but on solid training. 
 
Tactics: Night Archer prefers to attack the non-supers such as martial 
artists and gadgeteers last, except those with "weird" gadgets like 
sonic boomerangs or trick arrows. He starts defensively, but will switch 
to offense if he can't land an attack. 
 
Quote: "Why am I plagued with amateurs?" 
 
-- 
 
The Flash 
 
10 STR 
29 DEX 12 
13 CON  6 
11 BOD  2 
14 INT  4 
14 EGO  8 
13 PRE  3 
10 COM 
 6 PD   4 
 6 ED   3 
 9 SPD  6 
12 REC 14 
36 END  5 
23 STN  
 
15 10 10 5 10 10 10 10 10 10 10  15 10  15 10	 
15 Secret ID: Clark Parker  
10 Rival Reporter: Lois Watson  
10 Nearsighted (infrequent, great)  
5 Allergies (infrequent, slight)  
10 Large Appetite (frequent, slight)  
10 H: Senator 8- (less powerful, NCI)  
10 H: Mirror Man 8- (as powerful)  
10 H: Copy Cat 8- (as powerful)  
10 H: Dr. Oddity (as powerful)  
10 DNPC Friends 8-  
15 Code Versus Killing (common, moderate)  
10 Snoop (very common, moderate)  
15 Protective of Innocents (uncommon, strong)  
10 Overconfident (common, strong)  
10 Experience Spent (of 17)	 
 
Chars:	51 
Powers: 	176 
Skills: 	33 
Total: 	260 
Base: 	100 
Disads:	160 
 
Powers					 END 
30	Superspeed EC		 
30a	+20 DEX (no figured chars -0)		 
30b	+8 SPD		 
30c	+20" Running @ 0 END		 
			 
6	Regeneration 1/Hour		 
5	+10 STUN (only when unconscious -1)		 
			 
30	Superspeed Multipower		 
1u	7" Flight (costs 3x END)	3	 
1u	16x NCM Running {1200 mph}		 
1u	+15" Swimming	3	 
1u	+15" Leap	3	 
1u	Clinging +15 STR		 
1u	+5d6 Hand Attack	1	 
1u	+15 STR	1	 
1u	1d6-1 RKA Autofire (needs any small objects)	5	 
1u	+3 DCV (must be aware of attack)		 
1u	+15 PD (must be aware of attack)		 
1u	+7 DEF Force Field (must be aware of attack)	1	 
1u	Deflection Bullets		 
1u	Images of Self; Instant Change	1	 
1u	10 STR TK AE 1 Hex	1	 
1u	CE: 1 Hex Any superspeed effect	1	 
			 
Skills					  Roll 
4	Martial Dodge 		+5		 
3	+1 w/ Move Through, Move By, Punch		 
2	PS: Journalist	11-	 
3	Speed Reading		 
1	Spanish		 
1	German		 
1	Perk: Press Pass		 
2	Contact: The Press	11-	 
2	K: News	11-	 
2	K: Supers	11-	 
1	Bureaucratics	8-	 
3	Streetwise	12-	 
3	Conversation	12-	 
3	Acting	12-	 
3	Disguise	11-	 
3	Shadowing	11-	 
-4	Reporter Package		 
 
Background: Back in the '50s, a small green meteor landed in Kansas. It 
was kept as a museum piece for years, but it wasn't until the recent 
discovery of microscopic life on Mars that this rock was also tested and 
found to have life. Clark was the Planet Bugle's reporter specializing 
in superhuman activity. Since no superheroes and supervillains were 
known to exist before this meteor landed, he was assigned to the cover 
the press conference, and investigate any possible correlation between 
extraterrestrial life arriving on Earth and the appearance of 
superhumans. 
 
A small spider somehow had gotten onto the rock, and become infected 
with the Kryptonian organisms. The spider sickly crawled away, and 
unfortunately into an electric outlet. A power surge killed the spider, 
causing the microorganisms to surge with energy. They quickly found the 
nearest living being, Clark, and infected his body. 
 
Powers: Clark is very fast. To reflect this, he took the name of The 
Flash, a well known comic book speedster. He can run at a sustained 
speed of 1200 mph, and can act in combat much faster than almost anyone 
in the world. He can even run faster than the human eye can follow, 
becoming effectively invisible. 
 
Tactics: The Flash normally starts out defensively, with at least one of 
his multipower slots on his free dodge or free rolling with the punch. 
His normal attack is move by. 
 
Appearance: The Flash no longer wears a costume similar to the comic 
book character's. He now dresses in green, with a face mask. 
 
Quote: "I bet there's something interesting over here." 
 
-- 
 
Good luck! 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.geocities.com/soho/5953 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 14:33:48 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:54 PM 12/8/97 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote: 
> 
>There's the guy in High-Tech Enemies, I just don't remember the name 
>right now. 
> 
>Velocity ?   Impulse ? 
 
   There is a character named Impulse in HTE, but he isn't a speedster. 
You're probably confusing him with the DC Comics character of the same name. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: "Case" <wmpc@ix.netcom.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony... 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:37:23 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>I have seen this happen a lot, so don't feel bad -- it's not you, it's just 
>a kind of feeding frenzy I have seen e-mail on this and most of the other 
>lists I've been privy to over the years. Something happens to people behind 
>the veil of e-mail ... 
> 
>I thought your ideas all were interesting and had merit. Especially don't 
>give up on the villain idea; we have been thinking of doing much the same 
>thing. There are two major villain groups in our world; the Fourth Imperium 
>(your standard world-conquerers) and Predator (a loose gang who is just out 
>to make money, and will stop at nothing to get it). The campaign we were 
>thinking of running was to have the players make up new members of 
>Predator, who would then be given the assignment to rip off some high-tech 
>weapons from the Imperium for resale to the highest bidder. The players 
>then get to play completely evil characters if they want, doing whatever 
>pleases them, completely out of the heroic ethos. And, it makes for some 
>interesting play later, when the players' regular heroic characters 
>encounter these nefarious new Predator villains! I think (hope) it will be 
>a lot of fun. 
 
 Hey- I love those villain names 'Fourth Imperium' (!!) and 'Predator'. When 
we first tried to do a super-villain adventure a number of years back, it 
fell flat on it's face. We killed everything we saw, fought each other, 
killed cops, robbed. It was like a Roman orgy. And it got old FAST. Ho-hum. 
We didn't know how to do villainy right. We were all meglomaniacs vying for 
power with our maniacal laughter. But it looks as if you've got the idea as 
well with your plotline... 
     The new super-villain adventure so far has been a blast. What I've 
found is making adventures for bad guys requires just as much work as one 
for a superheroes. You need motivating factors, bad guys, good guys, drugs, 
whores, etc....We play in a futuristic 'Road Warrior'-type setting I call 
the "post-Christian Apocalypse". They extort local towns for money, 
supplies. They cut truces with larger gangs to work together to go after 
bigger and juicer targets like the heavily armed caravans with evangelists 
earnings in them (who have Christian crusaders working for them)... 
 
>Maybe even that isn't completely original (hey, what is?) but it is fun, 
>and that's the important thing, right? 
> 
>Hang in there! 
> 
>Jeff 
 
  Like I said- I like the idea- seems original enough to me to be a good 
time! 
 
                Take it easy, 
 
                    -CaseMan 
 
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 14:38:44 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Shaggy 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
>         Hmmm.  Well, maybe, but they were clearly designed as younger 
> "stand-ins".  Perhaps a bit more classy than actually having the 
> characters be younger, true.  So what other "-baby" shows were there?  I 
> can't think of any besides the already mentioned. 
 
   "Flintstones Kids" - blaarg;  The worst offender.  I don't actually 
remember many - I guess a mental block, but they went so far as to cross 
genres and put out 'Little Rosie' with Rosanne and Tom Arnold as kids in 
a cartoon.  Oh, the humanity.... 
 
   The thing about Tiny Toons is that they WERE different characters 
(the 'originals' made occasional appearences as teachers and stuff at 
'Acme Loonaversity'), thus had different personalities and foibles 
instead of being simply rehashed originals. 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 14:39:12 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:53 PM 12/8/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>At 08:48 AM 12/8/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>At 10:32 AM 12/8/97 -0500, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>>>>Oh, and Move Bys and Move Throughs at noncombat speeds are handled just 
>>>>like normal Move Bys and Move Throughs, except that OCV and DCV are  
>>>>halved (or DCV determined by velocity) before any other modifiers. 
>>> 
>>>I was asking more about the damage from NCM slams... 
>>> 
>>>A vehicle with 30" and 32xNCM is moving at full NCM speed and slams 
>>>right into a building. How much damage does the vehicle (and the 
>>>building) take? Is it 10d6? 320d6? Something else? 
>> 
>>   It will probably do the DEF+BODY of the building, up to 320d6.  (In 
>>other words, use the real velocity, not the combat velocity.) 
>> 
>Are you going to introduce "Confetti" rules like those in Car Wars?  I 
>don't remember the exact formula, but it was that if a vehicle took a 
>certain amount of damage (a certain fraction of its weight) it would be 
>reduced instantly to rubble, to be dropped from 12" above the playing 
>surface, to allow scattering.  : )  I think 320d6 would probably do it... 
 
   Well, at present my rule is that at 0 BODY a vehicle is too broken to 
work (though individual devices bought through a Focus might), and at -Full 
BODY it's totalled (and Foci, unless OAFs, are destroyed as well). 
Depending on the attitude of the list folks, I could suggest an optional 
rule that at -Double BODY the vehicle becomes scattered debris, and any 
lead miniature used to represent it should be smashed with a sledge hammer. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:40:50 -0600 (CST) 
Subject: Champions Adventures - in a rut 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
(Trevor Barrie writes in response to Case's comments) 
 
Admittedly, I'm coming in late.  However, I think the point is coming up 
with fresh twists on the 4-color genre rather than whether Case's  
scenarios actually qualify as '4-color'. 
 
Curt Hicks 
 
> From daemon@omg.org Mon Dec  8 16:34 CST 1997 
> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:09:22 -0400 (AST) 
> From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
> Subject: Re: Champions Adventures 
> MIME-Version: 1.0 
> Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
> X-Hero: champ-l 
> To: champ-l@omg.org 
> Content-Type> : > TEXT/PLAIN> ; > charset=US-ASCII>  
> Content-Length: 1474 
>  
> On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Case wrote: 
>  
> >     I was wondering if anyone was interested in talking about their _role 
> > playing experiences_ in the Champions universe. How many people still play 
> > the 4-color brand of Champions? 
>  
> My campaigns are generally not coherent enough to be classed into a 
> sub-genre.:) 
>  
> > We used to play 4-color adventures for the longest time, until we got into a 
> > terrible rut- playing every tired cliche in the book 
> >         1) You walk into a bank, cashing a check, when suddenly... 
> >         2) The government has called you all into this meeting because we 
> > have a top-secret mission that only YOU can handle, or course, if you are 
> > caught we will deny everyth... 
>  
> Is this a cliche of the 4-colour genre? I would think it would seem 
> terribly out of place in said genre - it's more a cliche of the espionage 
> genre, possibly useful as a change of pace for a somewhat darkly-toned 
> superhero genre. 
>  
> >         3) We must raid the super high-tech enemy complex, to 
> >             (a) rescue the hostage(s) 
> >             (b) stop the doomsday 
> > device/nuclear/biological/chemical/mechanical weapon 
> >             (c) destroy it. 
> >             (d) steal back the plans/equipment 
> >             (e) Kill the evil, vile, manical leader 
>  
> Definitely out of place for 4-colour supers IMO. You could change it to 
> capturing the evil, vile, maniacal leader, maybe, but to be honest I 
> can't think of all that many examples of complex-raiding at all in said 
> genre.  
>  
>  
 
X-Sender: mlknight@pop.mindspring.com 
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 15:42:45 -0700 
From: Michelle Knight <mlknight@mindspring.com> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 04:45 PM 12/8/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
>  Greetings, list lurkers and readers. I wanted to introduce myself 
briefly. I 
>am Mark Arsenault, head of Gold Rush Games. 
 
 
   Welcome Mark!  It's about darn time you got on this mailing list. :)   
 
 
 
Michelle 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 08:45:58 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Help? 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>> It doesn't matter what you CALL the move - what matters is the effect.  I 
>> can say I'm using a headbutt or a forearm or kick to the chin - it's still 
>> my martial strike.  I hit him, I do damage.  If I say I'm using a bodyslam 
>> or an arm drag or a hurricarana, the result is still the same - I damage my 
>> opponent and put him on the ground. 
> 
>By the same token, one could say that Johnny Storm's regular fire blasts 
>and his Nova Blast have the same effect, but I wouldn't respect a 
>character write-up which only gave him one attack and chalked the 
>difference up to special effects. 
> 
 
Why not? it's just a punch of d6 bought as a push, what's wrong with that? 
 
 
 
>> If the special effects of the move say I should also hit the ground, 
>> then special effects say I hop back to my feet before anybody takes 
>> advantage of my position (wrestlers do it all the time) 
> 
>OTOH, it's not unheard of for wrestlers to be attacked before getting up 
>from such moves. Possibly Breakfall would be a better way of simulating 
>this? 
> 
> 
 
Why not a penalty to dex? or a side effect- 'falls down on failure'  
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 08:45:58 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Help? 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>> It doesn't matter what you CALL the move - what matters is the effect.  I 
>> can say I'm using a headbutt or a forearm or kick to the chin - it's still 
>> my martial strike.  I hit him, I do damage.  If I say I'm using a bodyslam 
>> or an arm drag or a hurricarana, the result is still the same - I damage my 
>> opponent and put him on the ground. 
> 
>By the same token, one could say that Johnny Storm's regular fire blasts 
>and his Nova Blast have the same effect, but I wouldn't respect a 
>character write-up which only gave him one attack and chalked the 
>difference up to special effects. 
> 
 
Why not? it's just a punch of d6 bought as a push, what's wrong with that? 
 
 
 
>> If the special effects of the move say I should also hit the ground, 
>> then special effects say I hop back to my feet before anybody takes 
>> advantage of my position (wrestlers do it all the time) 
> 
>OTOH, it's not unheard of for wrestlers to be attacked before getting up 
>from such moves. Possibly Breakfall would be a better way of simulating 
>this? 
> 
> 
 
Why not a penalty to dex? or a side effect- 'falls down on failure'  
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 08:48:31 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters? 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:54 PM 12/8/97 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote: 
> 
>There's the guy in High-Tech Enemies, I just don't remember the name 
>right now. 
> 
>Velocity ?   Impulse ? 
> 
>Curt Hicks 
> 
 
What, you mean the second ever australian champions character? *l* 
He's a flyer if i remember forrectly, so i dunno if he counts as a  
'speedster'. . . how about weasel from the same book? I played him  
the same as 'lady flash' was circa FLASH #50. . .  
  
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 08:48:31 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters? 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
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Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:54 PM 12/8/97 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote: 
> 
>There's the guy in High-Tech Enemies, I just don't remember the name 
>right now. 
> 
>Velocity ?   Impulse ? 
> 
>Curt Hicks 
> 
 
What, you mean the second ever australian champions character? *l* 
He's a flyer if i remember forrectly, so i dunno if he counts as a  
'speedster'. . . how about weasel from the same book? I played him  
the same as 'lady flash' was circa FLASH #50. . .  
  
 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:48:44 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Help!!! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
> > > 	I am needing 3 npcs for a game. One must be a Blaster, other a velocist 
> > > and the third a sorcerer. 
> >  
> > Uh... what is a 'velocist'? 
>  
> Presumably he means what's commonly referred to as a "speedster".  
 
Yeah, he said as such as little later. 
 
> > BTW: Rafael, if you have web access (or even access to Lynx)  
>  
> Bit of an odd phrase, that. If he has access to Lynx, then by definition 
> he has web access. 
 
Uhm... oh yeah...  I just think Web = Netscape/Explorer and pictures and 
all that and forget the rest. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 14:52:08 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 04:44 PM 12/8/97 -0500, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>>>A vehicle with 30" and 32xNCM is moving at full NCM speed and slams 
>>>right into a building. How much damage does the vehicle (and the 
>>>building) take? Is it 10d6? 320d6? Something else? 
> 
>>It will probably do the DEF+BODY of the building, up to 320d6.  (In 
>>other words, use the real velocity, not the combat velocity.) 
> 
>I don't really like that ruling (nothing against you, I've seen it in 
>other games and didn't like it then either).  
> 
>For one, since movement is linear and damage is supposed to be 
>exponential, they don't jibe well. What I mean is that a 10d6 blast or 
>punch is defined as being twice as powerful as a 9d6 blast or punch. But 
>with a move through, the dice are linear, and the difference between a 
>10d6 and a 9d6 move through is only a linear 3". 
> 
>How about I define a vehicle (missile) with 30" flight, and 32xNCM. I 
>also buy 320 DEF for it (say what?!?). Or else I say it's an unbreakable 
>focus made from Impervium, the indestructible metal. This missile can 
>now destroy the earth with a move through. And actually, it would only 
>need 1 DEF higher than the earth's body, whatever that is. 
> 
>I've been considering changing Hero non-combat move throughs to doing 
>their normal combat move through damage plus 1d6 per NCM, so the 30" 
>with 32xNCM would do 10d6+32d6. It sounds more reasonable for those who 
>allow non-combat move throughs in their games (I don't), but I haven't 
>playtested it yet. 
 
   Being persuaded by your argument (most specifically the 
linear/exponential comparison), I think I will do something similar.  What 
you suggest (inches of movement + NCM) might be direct, but has the 
weakness that a vehicle with 30" plus 32xNCM does less damage (42d6) than a 
vehicle with 15" plus 64xNCM (67d6) in spite of the fact that they're 
moving at the same velocity.  Another weakness is that it fails to address 
the possibility of moving at noncombat speed, but not at top speed. 
   What I think I'll do is use a chart from Champions II that gives a 
direct velocity-to-damage system.  This starts at a velocity of 1/2" per 
segment for 1d6, and adds 2d6 per 2x movement.  Given that each 1d6 in Hero 
is a doubling of energy, this last factor (at least) is realistic; 
real-world physics (as I understand them) give us a multiple of energy 
equal to the square of a multiple of velocity, so that a vehicle travelling 
twice as fast really does do four times as much damage. 
 
>>It will probably do the DEF+BODY of the building, up to 320d6.  (In 
> 
>Oh yeah, shouldn't that be the lesser of the DEF+BODY of the building 
>and the vehicle? 
 
   You are certainly correct here.  The minimum of DEF+BODY of the 
building, the DEF+BODY of the vehicle, and 320d6 (or, by the Champions II 
table, 23d6).  My mistake. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 08:52:20 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
When I did up my 3da rules i decided to apply an attack with d6 = the size 
of the object collided with, +/- modifiers for density levels and MAX. If  
ANY of this dmamge got through to the vehicle, kablammo. If none did, boiiiing!  
it just bounces off! *l* sounds corny but it was designed with space-opera style  
dogfights in mind, with lots of shields, ect involved. .  
 
At 04:44 PM 12/8/97 -0500, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>>>A vehicle with 30" and 32xNCM is moving at full NCM speed and slams 
>>>right into a building. How much damage does the vehicle (and the 
>>>building) take? Is it 10d6? 320d6? Something else? 
> 
>>It will probably do the DEF+BODY of the building, up to 320d6.  (In 
>>other words, use the real velocity, not the combat velocity.) 
> 
>I don't really like that ruling (nothing against you, I've seen it in 
>other games and didn't like it then either).  
> 
>For one, since movement is linear and damage is supposed to be 
>exponential, they don't jibe well. What I mean is that a 10d6 blast or 
>punch is defined as being twice as powerful as a 9d6 blast or punch. But 
>with a move through, the dice are linear, and the difference between a 
>10d6 and a 9d6 move through is only a linear 3". 
> 
>How about I define a vehicle (missile) with 30" flight, and 32xNCM. I 
>also buy 320 DEF for it (say what?!?). Or else I say it's an unbreakable 
>focus made from Impervium, the indestructible metal. This missile can 
>now destroy the earth with a move through. And actually, it would only 
>need 1 DEF higher than the earth's body, whatever that is. 
> 
>I've been considering changing Hero non-combat move throughs to doing 
>their normal combat move through damage plus 1d6 per NCM, so the 30" 
>with 32xNCM would do 10d6+32d6. It sounds more reasonable for those who 
>allow non-combat move throughs in their games (I don't), but I haven't 
>playtested it yet. 
> 
> 
>>It will probably do the DEF+BODY of the building, up to 320d6.  (In 
> 
>Oh yeah, shouldn't that be the lesser of the DEF+BODY of the building 
>and the vehicle? 
> 
> 
>Dave Mattingly 
> 
> 
 
 
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 08:52:20 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge 
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When I did up my 3da rules i decided to apply an attack with d6 = the size 
of the object collided with, +/- modifiers for density levels and MAX. If  
ANY of this dmamge got through to the vehicle, kablammo. If none did, boiiiing!  
it just bounces off! *l* sounds corny but it was designed with space-opera style  
dogfights in mind, with lots of shields, ect involved. .  
 
At 04:44 PM 12/8/97 -0500, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>>>A vehicle with 30" and 32xNCM is moving at full NCM speed and slams 
>>>right into a building. How much damage does the vehicle (and the 
>>>building) take? Is it 10d6? 320d6? Something else? 
> 
>>It will probably do the DEF+BODY of the building, up to 320d6.  (In 
>>other words, use the real velocity, not the combat velocity.) 
> 
>I don't really like that ruling (nothing against you, I've seen it in 
>other games and didn't like it then either).  
> 
>For one, since movement is linear and damage is supposed to be 
>exponential, they don't jibe well. What I mean is that a 10d6 blast or 
>punch is defined as being twice as powerful as a 9d6 blast or punch. But 
>with a move through, the dice are linear, and the difference between a 
>10d6 and a 9d6 move through is only a linear 3". 
> 
>How about I define a vehicle (missile) with 30" flight, and 32xNCM. I 
>also buy 320 DEF for it (say what?!?). Or else I say it's an unbreakable 
>focus made from Impervium, the indestructible metal. This missile can 
>now destroy the earth with a move through. And actually, it would only 
>need 1 DEF higher than the earth's body, whatever that is. 
> 
>I've been considering changing Hero non-combat move throughs to doing 
>their normal combat move through damage plus 1d6 per NCM, so the 30" 
>with 32xNCM would do 10d6+32d6. It sounds more reasonable for those who 
>allow non-combat move throughs in their games (I don't), but I haven't 
>playtested it yet. 
> 
> 
>>It will probably do the DEF+BODY of the building, up to 320d6.  (In 
> 
>Oh yeah, shouldn't that be the lesser of the DEF+BODY of the building 
>and the vehicle? 
> 
> 
>Dave Mattingly 
> 
> 
 
 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 14:52:56 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:52 PM 12/8/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>On Monday, December 08, 1997 6:44 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
><snip> 
>>   I encourage this line of conversation.  Please -- virtually every 
>post 
>>here is adding something to TUSV! 
>>   Say, does anyone know offhand what the standard locations are for 
>the 
>>VIN?  I know there's one on the dashboard, and I think there's one on 
>the 
>>engine block... 
> 
>Dashboard and  car door frames on some models, I believe. The engine 
>block number tags the engine, but 
>not the vehicle. Otherwise, any car with a new engine would have two 
>VINs. 
 
   Ooh, good point.  I think I said "engine block" when I meant something 
else whose name escapes me. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 08:59:41 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
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At 04:45 PM 12/8/97 -0500, GoldRushG wrote: 
>  Greetings, list lurkers and readers. I wanted to introduce myself briefly. I 
>am Mark Arsenault, head of Gold Rush Games. As we're getting geared up to 
>release San Angelo: City of Heroes (the first paper supplement for Champions 
>4th Ed in a loooong time) I thought I would get on this list and get some 
>feedback from you folks. 
> 
>  Specifically, I am wondering if anyone here downloaded the SA:CoH preview 
>chapters. If so, are there any comments? Or any questions of me regarding this 
>new product line? 
> 
>  Mark @ GRG 
> 
 
Okies. . maybe a specific url is in order? Anybody?  
Or i'll just pop over to hero.. .  
click the link. . .find you guys 
. . . click the link. . .. *yawn* *lol* 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 08:59:41 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 04:45 PM 12/8/97 -0500, GoldRushG wrote: 
>  Greetings, list lurkers and readers. I wanted to introduce myself briefly. I 
>am Mark Arsenault, head of Gold Rush Games. As we're getting geared up to 
>release San Angelo: City of Heroes (the first paper supplement for Champions 
>4th Ed in a loooong time) I thought I would get on this list and get some 
>feedback from you folks. 
> 
>  Specifically, I am wondering if anyone here downloaded the SA:CoH preview 
>chapters. If so, are there any comments? Or any questions of me regarding this 
>new product line? 
> 
>  Mark @ GRG 
> 
 
Okies. . maybe a specific url is in order? Anybody?  
Or i'll just pop over to hero.. .  
click the link. . .find you guys 
. . . click the link. . .. *yawn* *lol* 
 
From: "Case" <wmpc@ix.netcom.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:02:35 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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>With this one, I was *comparing* it (or trying to) to that scene from the 
>Princess Bride, because I would absolutely let one of my players get away 
>with that scene.  However, I could also see the monologue you just wrote 
>being said with bitterness and bile in the character's voice, just to see 
>the fear and realization in the villain's eyes right before he blew his 
>head off. 
>I'm glad that your hero (even if it is just an example) didn't kill him, 
>and gave him a second chance.  Those are the kinds of heroes I would like 
>in my games. 
> 
>I'm sorry that my response seemed overly critical to you.  The reason that 
>I wrote so much was to be fair and try and respond to all that you wrote. 
>I'll try and phrase my posts more concisely from now on. 
 
 Reading back on my previous posts, it occured to me that I inadvertently 
took the 'classic rock sucks, alternative rulez!' type of posture. So I 
probably seemed like I was putting down the 4 color stuff to everyone who 
likes 4 color- where my frame of mind really was just presenting some (what 
I thought were) new ideas. 
 
 I agree with you on the second chance in the above example- what good it is 
GMing or playing characters with no redeeming values whatsoever? It gets 
stale quickly... 
 
 
    -CaseMan 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:28:58 -0800 
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On Monday, December 08, 1997 2:32 PM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
 
>At 03:53 PM 12/8/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
<snip> 
>>Are you going to introduce "Confetti" rules like those in Car Wars? 
I 
>>don't remember the exact formula, but it was that if a vehicle took 
a 
>>certain amount of damage (a certain fraction of its weight) it would 
be 
>>reduced instantly to rubble, to be dropped from 12" above the 
playing 
>>surface, to allow scattering.  : )  I think 320d6 would probably do 
it... 
> 
>   Well, at present my rule is that at 0 BODY a vehicle is too broken 
to 
>work (though individual devices bought through a Focus might), and 
at -Full 
>BODY it's totalled (and Foci, unless OAFs, are destroyed as well). 
>Depending on the attitude of the list folks, I could suggest an 
optional 
>rule that at -Double BODY the vehicle becomes scattered debris, and 
any 
>lead miniature used to represent it should be smashed with a sledge 
hammer. 
 
 
Long ago, the Paranoia game recommended that, in the event that 
nuclear weapons are used, you should run over the playing area with a 
lawn mower.:) 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:46:59 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Filksinger wrote: 
 
> Long ago, the Paranoia game recommended that, in the event that 
> nuclear weapons are used, you should run over the playing area with a 
> lawn mower.:) 
 
And then there was the NATO/Warsaw Pact simulation that recommended 
lighting the mapboard on  fire in advent of a nuclear exchange. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 22:22:02 -0500 
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net 
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood 
Subject: Mulitple move bys 
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I was wondering if anyone had an opinion or idea (I'm sure everyone 
does) about how to construct a teleporting character who does multiple 
move bys like Excalibur's Nightcrawler. Specifically the mechanics 
behind the maneuver. In the past I allowed a character to simply do it 
as if he were running as long as he had enough teleport inches to make 
it to each target, in effect treating it like any other movement power. 
Some of the gamers around here feel that the maneuver has to be 
constructed with powers. Any ideas ? 
 
 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:56:43 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
> At 10:41 AM 12/8/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
> >Maybe you've felt that way because you've applied it more strictly than 
> >the writers intended. 
>  
> I apply it as it's written -- no more, no less.  If they intended it less 
> strict, they should have written something else. 
>  
 
I agree. Your interpretation certainly does fit the letter of the IPE 
rules; at no point have I disputed that. However, while the BBB is 
probably the best-edited product Hero ever put out, it occasionally still 
falls short of total reliability in wording and consistency. The 
description of Flight in the special effects section implies something 
very different from what the IPE section does. Considering that in prior 
editions IPE was irrelevent, and that the special effects references to 
Flight went virtually unchanged in the 4th ed., I suspect they just didn't 
think it through. Since giving a broad interpretation to the "visible" 
effects of flight gives a better genre feel to my superhero games, I 
choose to do it.  
 
 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:05:20 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> The link is a 1/2 disadvantage, but is it really? 
 
	Taboo topic, but here goes. 
 
> Let's say I want to have a Hero who wields twin UZIs. Each has a 5-shot 
> Autofire. Normally he would have one and only fire 5 shots, if I put a link 
> disadvantage to one of the guns and link it to the main gun. We now have an 
> attack that can do TWO 5-shot autofires!! At a reduced point cost on the 
> second power to boot!!! Does anyone see a problem with this. 
 
	Nope, for the same cost I could to a 5-shot autofire at a much 
higher DC level.  Or a ten-shot autofire with bonuses to hit, "only to 
counteract autofire penalties". 
 
> Another example is I could have a 12d6 photon blast, and link a 3d6 flash 
> to it as well. Now we have a 12d6 EB along with a 3d6 flash (even though it 
> does require another hit roll) that can be done all in one phase. 
 
	Well, actually it is done with only *one* attack action.  However, 
notice that for the same number of Active Points, you could do either an 
18d6 EB or a 9d6 flash, either one of which is more effective than the 
above.  Remember that upper damage classes are usually more effective than 
the lower ones as defenses only go so high.  (With real points, the above 
work out to a 16d6 eb or an 8d6 Flash, still much more effective.) 
Linked is a disad because you are permenantly linking two powers -- 
niether can be used alone and you lose overall effectiveness of the 
powers. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:26:39 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony... 
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>  Hey- I love those villain names 'Fourth Imperium' (!!) and 'Predator'. When 
> we first tried to do a super-villain adventure a number of years back, it 
> fell flat on it's face. We killed everything we saw, fought each other, 
> killed cops, robbed. It was like a Roman orgy. And it got old FAST. Ho-hum. 
> We didn't know how to do villainy right. We were all meglomaniacs vying for 
> power with our maniacal laughter. But it looks as if you've got the idea as 
> well with your plotline... 
 
Sounds like it.:)  I've kept considering doing a villain game sometime, 
but I doubt my group would be into it.  Even when I run gray morality 
games right now, they play heros.:) 
 
TokyoMark 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 01:13:05 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net (Unverified) 
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Status:  
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At 04:03 PM 12/8/97 -0500, Urklore The Iron wrote: 
>The link is a 1/2 disadvantage, but is it really? 
> 
>Let's say I want to have a Hero who wields twin UZIs. Each has a 5-shot 
>Autofire. Normally he would have one and only fire 5 shots, if I put a link 
>disadvantage to one of the guns and link it to the main gun. We now have an 
>attack that can do TWO 5-shot autofires!! At a reduced point cost on the 
>second power to boot!!! Does anyone see a problem with this. 
>Another example is I could have a 12d6 photon blast, and link a 3d6 flash 
>to it as well. Now we have a 12d6 EB along with a 3d6 flash (even though it 
>does require another hit roll) that can be done all in one phase.  
 
 
NO NONOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not again! 
 
 
 
 
 
I know violence doesn't solve all problems... 
	But it sure feels good! 
		Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior 
 
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 22:13:59 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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-- Bob Greenwade wrote: 
<<Your bit>> 
> >>    The last I saw, officially, no.  For character concepts that need this, 
> >> I usually allow a +1/2 "House Rule" advantage, "Regrows Limbs," which can 
> >> be applied to REC, Aid (with the Healing option), or Regeneration. 
> ><<My bit>> 
> >And this is written where?  Certainly not under the description of 
> >regeneration in the BBB. 
> <<Your bit, again>> 
>    It's not written anywhere.  That's what makes it a house rule, Rick. 
 
Sorry, my fault.  The bit I was asking about was the no limb regeneration.  Your  
+1/2 "regrows limbs" was clearly labeled as a house rule.  You said "The last I  
saw, officially, no."  I was wanting to know where it had been made official. 
-------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony... 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 0:33:16 CST 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 5 
 
> >  Hey- I love those villain names 'Fourth Imperium' (!!) and 'Predator'. When 
> > we first tried to do a super-villain adventure a number of years back, it 
> > fell flat on it's face. We killed everything we saw, fought each other, 
> > killed cops, robbed. It was like a Roman orgy. And it got old FAST. Ho-hum. 
> > We didn't know how to do villainy right. We were all meglomaniacs vying for 
> > power with our maniacal laughter. But it looks as if you've got the idea as 
> > well with your plotline... 
>  
> Sounds like it.:)  I've kept considering doing a villain game sometime, 
> but I doubt my group would be into it.  Even when I run gray morality 
> games right now, they play heros.:) 
 
I played in a Villain game about a year ago; I was the four-color villian 
(Blitzkrieg - the product of a series of genetic experiments done by 
Nazi scientists who settled in Montana after WW2, and went around  
annoying the Federal government talking about "the proper place of  
minorities in American society", etc, spouting a lot of "militia"  
propaganda, and otherwise advocating a rebellion against the current  
Federal government on "Constitutional" grounds - I also saved peoples 
lives during natural disasters, even minorities, since they too have  
a place in society, and am now using him as a villian in my superhero  
games...) 
 
Unfortunately, everyone else either played paranormal crooks or "grey" 
characters; the campaign died (due to the GM and his girlfriend breaking 
up - she played in it too) just before I was able to launch my attempt 
to seize control of Argentina (I picked it because of the high number of 
ex-Nazis, the horrible state of the economy and government, and because 
my character's girlfriend, confidante and co-partner, 'Jaguar', could 
speak Spanish).  I had turned the main supervillian in Argentina into a 
henchman, etc... 
 
Fun game; we spent a lot of time (when not at Sanctuary annoying the 
Champions) in Monte Carlo and Tahiti - if you're going to be a super- 
villian, you need good perks. 
 
Plotlines: I annoyed the heck out of PRIMUS, until some 'special-built' 
Iron Guard agents nailed me, then I dropped buildings on them (100 STR), 
and spent time on TV talking about the upcoming revolution, and wouldn't  
every clean-living American want to be on it, and how Hitler was wrong 
to go after Jews and other minorities, since they all have a place in 
society, like Jewish Bankers and Black Basketball Stars and Hispanic 
Car Salesmen, etc... 
 
Basically, Superman, but with the ideology of Archie Bunker and the 
personality of "the Fonz" from Happy Days ('cuz he was the only cool 
one in the group, and superheroines fell for him all the time)... 
 
 
 
DonM. 
-- 
========================================================================= 
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist,              (217) 239-8365 =  
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL     dmckinne@cmi.csc.com = 
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 = 
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org    (217) 469-9917 =  
========================================================================= 
 
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 22:34:05 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 40 
 
-- Robert A. West wrote: 
>  
> Rick Holding wrote: 
> > 
> > Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> > > 
> > > At 09:59 AM 12/6/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
> > > > Do characters with regeneration regenerate limbs? . . . 
> > > 
> > >    The last I saw, officially, no.  . . . 
> > 
> > And this is written where?  Certainly not under the description of 
> > regeneration in the BBB. 
>  
> Actually, the point is that the book says nowhere that Regeneration can 
> regrow limbs.  Powers do what they are stated to do, modulo special 
> effects. 
> 	Can not the loss of a limb be represented by loss of body points?   
Using the (optional) hit location tables can allow sufficent body to be done  
to a limb for it to be ruled a disabling wound which could mean loss of limb.  
 Blam, your left arm has just taken 12 body.  Its lying on the ground and you  
decrease you body total by two.   
 
> Per book, Regen recovers points of BODY, period.  As has been pointed out 
> from time to time, the only way to represent limb loss under standard 
> rules is as a Major Transform.  By the rules for Transform, a completed 
> transform may either be reversed by recovering the Transform "BODY" as if 
> recovering normal BODY, in which case Regeneration works, or by some 
> other method appropriate to the Transform, in which case Regeneration is 
> irrelevant. 
 
	Certainly, its ONE way of doing it.  Just of the cuff.  1D6 body  
drain, +3 advantage recover 5pts/century. SFX - limb removed.  All up cost 40  
points.  Regenration works against body drains and transfers. 
 
>  
> Since humans do not, in most campaigns, routinely regrow limbs, this 
> implies that the Transform in question is nor reversed by normal BODY 
> recovery; therefore standard Regeneration would not work.  It would be 
> perfectly appropriate to define a SFX for Regeneration that works against 
> (and only against) Transforms that represent Amputations, and to require 
> that all amputation Transforms include Regeneration/Limb as one of the 
> reversal conditions. 
 
	Humans do not, in most campaigns, regernerate limbs because nobody  
looses them!  Okay, broad statement, I'll admit.  But I certainly have not  
seen anybody lose a limb in the 10+ years that I have been playing. 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 01:45:26 EST 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 7 
 
<< 1. Where have you people been? >> 
 
  I can't recall ever being an active part of the Champions list, myself, and 
I cannot speak for Steve Peterson (Hero Games). Atlas Games let their Hero 
license go last year, I believe and have no plans to publish new Hero 
products. 
 
<< It's like we were totally abandoned. >> 
 
  Not at all. You can always contact us or Hero Games via e-mail, snail mail, 
on AOL or CompuServe, or in the internet newsgroups. 
 
<< But to totally disapear from Hero's public forum looks pretty bad. And then 
to only re-appear in order to promote new products is even worse. >> 
 
  Well, for one thing, there is more to the public forum than this list, 
although I can appreciate your feelings and concerns. As for my arrival, what 
can I say? Here I am. Am I a welcomed participant or an object of scorn and 
ridicule? ;) 
 
<< I'm more concerned with Steve P.'s lack of presense than yours. But I 
assumed when joining here that it would be a good place to get 'official' 
answers. Yet it's been a void. >> 
 
  I would suggest sending an e-mail to Steve at herogames@aol.com. While I 
will not speak for him, I can tell you that he is a very busy guy, what with 
flying back and forth to Washington (to fulfill his role as WotCs marketing 
guy), running Hero Games and making sure we don't screw up our Hero products. 
;) 
 
<< So it's a fictional city. Would you say it's got a more Marvel, DC, or 
Image feel to it? When I think fictional cities my mind thinks 4-color DC. >> 
 
  That's a really tough question for me to answer, because I have not been 
heavy into reading comics for some time. Probably the best answer I could give 
(or the best comparison, rather) is that it is a lot like Astro City. Our goal 
is to present a realistic city with "real" people where supers live and 
operate. As the author put it, "San Angelo: City of Heroes is about people 
with powers, not the other way around." Each of our characters is being 
designed with depth. In addition, we're planning on maintaining continuity and 
introducing new people/places/things logically. No more "Endless Enemies" 
books. ;) 
 
<< 3. Totally new Universe? In this 'verse there's no "Hudson City" off in 
another state somewhere? (like Metropolis and Gotham). >> 
 
  Just because it's a new universe doesn't mean we don't have our own "Hudson 
City" or "Gotham." But it will be a while before you see any San Angelo 
products for the Dark Champions crowd. 
 
<< 4. Is this the beginning of something (providing sales justify)? Or a one- 
shot Tangent Universe like Strike Force was? >> 
 
  Oh, we wouldn't be spending thousands of dollars developing this book just 
to let it be a one shot deal. ;)  No, SA:CoH is the first of a whole new line 
of books for Champions 4th Ed. Be sure to check out our web site, too, for 
info on upcoming San Angelo supplements (and other upcoming books) from GRG. 
 
<< 5. What kind of power level will it go for? >> 
 
  Anything you want. Not the answer you wanted? Well, the sample PCs in the 
book are all built on 250 points. The villains will vary, with most falling in 
the 250-350 range, most likely. Of course, there will be exceptions... 
 
<< Do you or anybody else hold the rights to print more BBB's when the current 
stock runs out? >> 
 
  Boy, you folks should check out the rec.rpg.superhero newsgroup more often! 
:D  Our license is the same license that ICE held in recent years (before the 
Hero/ICE split). Basically, we can publish anything for Hero System 4th Ed. 
(not just Champions) as long as Hero Games approves it. 
 
  And yes, there are plans to reprint the Champions core book when current 
copies run out. But we currently have a good number of copies of the Champions 
Deluxe hardback (w/o software) that it probably won't be until late next year 
or early '99 that you'd see a new Champions (did I say 5th Ed.?) book. 
 
  Hey, it's great to be on the list! If I can answer any other qwuestions, let 
me have 'em! Those that are more for Hero Games I will have to defer to Steve 
Peterson, though. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:17:25 EST 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 10 
 
<< Okies. . maybe a specific url is in order?>> 
 
  Sorry about that. I'm used to my sig being posted as in the newsgroups. :D 
 
  Our web page is at http://members.aol.com/goldrushg 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 23:21:05 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 11 
 
 
 
GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << 1. Where have you people been? >> 
> 
>   I can't recall ever being an active part of the Champions list, myself, and 
> I cannot speak for Steve Peterson (Hero Games). Atlas Games let their Hero 
> license go last year, I believe and have no plans to publish new Hero 
> products. 
 
    Well, that's too bad to hear. Though I don't recall them as ever having been 
very active. 
 
> << It's like we were totally abandoned. >> 
> 
>   Not at all. You can always contact us or Hero Games via e-mail, snail mail, 
> on AOL or CompuServe, or in the internet newsgroups. 
 
    Well, This is THE mailing list for YOUR (you and Steve) product. So you should 
havebeen here since day 1. Or in your case, the day you got your license. 
    But that's all spilt milk. Now that you're here, I expect regular commentary. 
:) 
As long as it's not all buy my stuff spam. :) 
 
> << But to totally disapear from Hero's public forum looks pretty bad. And then 
> to only re-appear in order to promote new products is even worse. >> 
> 
>   Well, for one thing, there is more to the public forum than this list, 
> although I can appreciate your feelings and concerns. As for my arrival, what 
> can I say? Here I am. Am I a welcomed participant or an object of scorn and 
> ridicule? ;) 
 
    I'm not trying to flame you. Actually I've met you at a con and decided you 
were genuinlyenthusiastic, or just a good con. :) 
    However, the newsgroup is not product specific, AOL and Compuserv are limited 
forums, as is 
WebRPG and #herochat (DALnet IRC). This group is pretty large, dedicated, active, 
and open to anyone 
with email. 
 
 
> << I'm more concerned with Steve P.'s lack of presense than yours. But I 
> assumed when joining here that it would be a good place to get 'official' 
> answers. Yet it's been a void. >> 
> 
>   I would suggest sending an e-mail to Steve at herogames@aol.com. While I 
> will not speak for him, I can tell you that he is a very busy guy, what with 
> flying back and forth to Washington (to fulfill his role as WotCs marketing 
> guy), running Hero Games and making sure we don't screw up our Hero products. 
> ;) 
 
    Uh-oh. TSR meets WoTC meets Hero. My fifth Level Malkavelian Brick Punches 
your6th level AC 6 Egoist for 5 successes? :) 
    Or collectable Champions Card Game? :) 
 
BTW, who in their right mind would hire Steve P. to sell / market anything? 
Considering Hero's 
great success in the market. :) 
 
> << So it's a fictional city. Would you say it's got a more Marvel, DC, or 
> Image feel to it? When I think fictional cities my mind thinks 4-color DC. >> 
> 
>   That's a really tough question for me to answer, because I have not been 
> heavy into reading comics for some time. Probably the best answer I could give 
> (or the best comparison, rather) is that it is a lot like Astro City. Our goal 
> is to present a realistic city with "real" people where supers live and 
> operate. As the author put it, "San Angelo: City of Heroes is about people 
> with powers, not the other way around." Each of our characters is being 
> designed with depth. In addition, we're planning on maintaining continuity and 
> introducing new people/places/things logically. No more "Endless Enemies" 
> books. ;) 
 
    If it's anything like Astro City you can count me in. 
 
> << 3. Totally new Universe? In this 'verse there's no "Hudson City" off in 
> another state somewhere? (like Metropolis and Gotham). >> 
> 
>   Just because it's a new universe doesn't mean we don't have our own "Hudson 
> City" or "Gotham." But it will be a while before you see any San Angelo 
> products for the Dark Champions crowd. 
 
    Hey no problem, I can't stand all that dark junk myself. 
 
> << 4. Is this the beginning of something (providing sales justify)? Or a one- 
> shot Tangent Universe like Strike Force was? >> 
> 
>   Oh, we wouldn't be spending thousands of dollars developing this book just 
> to let it be a one shot deal. ;)  No, SA:CoH is the first of a whole new line 
> of books for Champions 4th Ed. Be sure to check out our web site, too, for 
> info on upcoming San Angelo supplements (and other upcoming books) from GRG. 
> 
> << 5. What kind of power level will it go for? >> 
> 
>   Anything you want. Not the answer you wanted? Well, the sample PCs in the 
> book are all built on 250 points. The villains will vary, with most falling in 
> the 250-350 range, most likely. Of course, there will be exceptions... 
> 
 
    So does that mean they will all be lower power level than the BBB characters? 
Since while theBBB characters are all 250 points, they have no skills, perks, or 
dare I say... depth. Adding those 
things in will take away from other things unless the points are raised. 
 
> << Do you or anybody else hold the rights to print more BBB's when the current 
> stock runs out? >> 
> 
>   Boy, you folks should check out the rec.rpg.superhero newsgroup more often! 
> :D  Our license is the same license that ICE held in recent years (before the 
> Hero/ICE split). Basically, we can publish anything for Hero System 4th Ed. 
> (not just Champions) as long as Hero Games approves it. 
> 
>   And yes, there are plans to reprint the Champions core book when current 
> copies run out. But we currently have a good number of copies of the Champions 
> Deluxe hardback (w/o software) that it probably won't be until late next year 
> or early '99 that you'd see a new Champions (did I say 5th Ed.?) book. 
 
    Uh-Oh. See my above comments about WoTC/TSR. Can we add Fuzion into 
thatequation as well? :) 
 
>   Hey, it's great to be on the list! If I can answer any other qwuestions, let 
> me have 'em! Those that are more for Hero Games I will have to defer to Steve 
> Peterson, though. 
 
    Well, have at. A lot of useful and useless junk on this list. I almost 
unsubscribe on adaily basis, only to be rooted to my keyboard a few minutes later. 
 
 
 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:06:45 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 12 
 
 
 
> > work out to a 16d6 eb or an 8d6 Flash, still much more effective.) 
> > Linked is a disad because you are permenantly linking two powers -- 
> > niether can be used alone and you lose overall effectiveness of the 
> > powers. 
> 
> 	That last part is not quite correct.  The flash attack is linked to the 
> energy blast.  For the flash to operate, the energy blast must be fired.  But if 
> you fire the energy blast, you do not have to activate the flash.  The energy 
> blast is not limited.  The flash attack is. 
 
 
	Actually, both attacks *are* limited, you are only allowed the 
disad on the one, however, for balance reasons.  That's part of the 
disadvantage, you get points for the smaller, but both are affected. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:10:16 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 32 
 
> > > work out to a 16d6 eb or an 8d6 Flash, still much more effective.) 
> > > Linked is a disad because you are permenantly linking two powers -- 
> > > niether can be used alone and you lose overall effectiveness of the 
> > > powers. 
> > 
> > 	That last part is not quite correct.  The flash attack is linked to the 
> > energy blast.  For the flash to operate, the energy blast must be fired.  But if 
> > you fire the energy blast, you do not have to activate the flash.  The energy 
> > blast is not limited.  The flash attack is. 
>  
>  
> 	Actually, both attacks *are* limited, you are only allowed the 
> disad on the one, however, for balance reasons.  That's part of the 
> disadvantage, you get points for the smaller, but both are affected. 
> 
	This whole discussion is MOOT. 
 
I can simply use "limited" to design a custom version of linked that works 
however I desire for the given character at hand. 
 
	There are special effects which fit for either way. 
 
  
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Jane..get me off this crazy thing..jane!!! 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:15:33 +0000 (GMT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 33 
 
>  
> I thought sending mail to  champ-request@omg.org with unsubcribe champ-l in 
> teh subject and the body would get me unsubscribed. It's 48 hours and three 
> attempts later..i'm still on the list, and the messages haven't bounced, or 
> anything else. SO how cna i actually get unsubscribed..anyone know?> 
> 
        This is hell, you can't leave. 
 
There's a poster on rec.games.frp.super-heroes having the same problem in 
reverse. He can't seem to manage to subscribe. 
 
        I think the request alias got disabled when all those bounces went 
through a few days back. Or whatever. 
 
  
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 04:48:01 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 15 
 
Mark, 
 
How's it going buddy?  Hope your wife is doing well!   
 
I personally am looking forward to seeing "San Angelo: City of Heroes" I 
down loaded the promo, I had some trouble with the formating, but as for 
content it read really well, and seemed to be headed in the right direction.   
 
What type of characters will be in the book? Will we be bale to get 
electronic versions from the web site?  Fusion versions? Heromaker? 
 
Do you want to trade an ad in Herozine for a Review copy?   
 
So many questions so little time. 
 
Later,  
Michael 
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
X-Sender: nezmaster@ntr.net 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 05:49:22 -0500 
From: Nez Master <nezmaster@ntr.net> 
Subject: Jane..get me off this crazy thing..jane!!! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 14 
 
I thought sending mail to  champ-request@omg.org with unsubcribe champ-l in 
teh subject and the body would get me unsubscribed. It's 48 hours and three 
attempts later..i'm still on the list, and the messages haven't bounced, or 
anything else. SO how cna i actually get unsubscribed..anyone know?> 
 
-------------------------Nez Master-------------------- 
      Second founder of the backwards philosophy 
	       http://www.ntr.net/~nezmaster 
	    		Nothing is certain 
_______________________________________________________ 
	 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 97 11:21:16 GMT 
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk 
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness) 
Subject: Re: Mulitple move bys 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 17 
 
At 10:22 PM 8/12/97 -0500, KevLord@net.att.worldnet wrote: 
>I was wondering if anyone had an opinion or idea (I'm sure everyone 
>does) about how to construct a teleporting character who does multiple 
>move bys like Excalibur's Nightcrawler. Specifically the mechanics 
>behind the maneuver. In the past I allowed a character to simply do it 
>as if he were running as long as he had enough teleport inches to make 
>it to each target, in effect treating it like any other movement power. 
>Some of the gamers around here feel that the maneuver has to be 
>constructed with powers. Any ideas ? 
> 
 
I made a character based on Nightcrawler who did this. I designed it by buying 
selective area effect HA (dice based on his strength) with no range. This  
allowed him to attack a whole range of people within a defined distance.  
Seemed to work for him. 
 
The teleporting to each person was just a special effect of the power. I  
think you are in danger of the look and feel blinding you to the mechanics  
of what you are trying to achieve. 
 
 
Stephen 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Re: Mulitple move bys 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:43:42 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 21 
 
You could always just buy extra inches of running with the special 
effect of teleporting. 
 
40 MP 
4u 10" Teleport w/ 32xNCM 
4u 20" Teleport 
4u +20" Running 
 
He uses his 26" of running to to move bys, but the special effect is 
that he teleports from character to character and punches them. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 06:45:42 -0700 
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 19 
 
GoldRushG wrote: 
>  
>   Greetings, list lurkers and readers. I wanted to introduce myself briefly. I 
> am Mark Arsenault, head of Gold Rush Games. As we're getting geared up to 
> release San Angelo: City of Heroes (the first paper supplement for Champions 
> 4th Ed in a loooong time) I thought I would get on this list and get some 
> feedback from you folks. 
>  
>   Specifically, I am wondering if anyone here downloaded the SA:CoH preview 
> chapters. If so, are there any comments? Or any questions of me regarding this 
> new product line? 
 
Out of curiosity how much of the Champs stuff are you planning to do in 
San Angelo. I remember seeing some blurbs for some other Champs books 
that looked pretty interesting (the one about the cops/the law, and the 
time travel adventures one). 
 
I took a quick look at the download. I didn't see anything to make me 
gag right off. I haven't looked at it in depth enough for any other 
reactions other than visceral. 
 
Hope the quality is as good as the two Heroic Adventures. I've used a 
good number of those already. The bad guy in the Knightsabers plot (the 
guy running the experiments) has joined Genocide here. 8). 
--  
-Mhoram 
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 
 two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Cc: "'champ-l@omg.org'" <champ-l@omg.org> 
Subject: Re: Archer and Speedster 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:08:08 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 22 
 
Alone at Midnight asks about the Flash's powers, and I thought some on 
the list might be interested... 
 
>Like the heroes! 
 
Thanks. I appreciate it. 
 
>What's the Flash's SFX on his powers? 
 
+10 STUN (only when unconscious -1) 
 
This means that he heals faster than most. He recovers at a level above 
others. When he's at -15 stun, he'd normally recover on post-12s, but 
this means that he can recover as if he were at -5 stun, and can get a 
recovery every phase. 
			 
7" Flight (costs 3x END) 
 
The flight costs extra END because he runs faster than gravity. Imagine 
his legs beating so fast, he can walk on air resistance. Or his arms 
spinning or flapping so fast, he flies like a helicopter or a bird. 
That's also why it's only a few inches of flight. 
 
+15" Leap 
 
You can get a good leap going with a good running start. 
 
Clinging +15 STR 
 
Again, he outruns gravity. He can run up the side of a building because 
he goes faster than 10m/s/s. Or, since it's not linked to running, he 
can use it to avoid knockback with the reasoning that he's fast enough 
to brace at the last second, or he got an inch or so out of the way so 
as to not take the full force. Or, he can carry something and not be 
disarmed because he just picks it back up very quickly. Etc. 
 
+5d6 Hand Attack 
 
His fist moves very quickly to hit you. Or he just hits you several 
times. 
 
+15 STR 
 
He still just has a normal man's strength, but he can do things quickly 
that would normally take much longer. A brick could pick up a half ton 
with one hand behind his back, and a normal man could huff and puff and 
eventually maybe get it lifted, with time and help. Flash is that normal 
man, but he just does it faster. He can use his extra strength to escape 
grabs and entangles, since he's so fast he can wiggle out of them. He 
can use it to hold someone tighter, since every time they almost escape, 
he just re-grabs them with better positioning. He can use it from 
throwing distance, since he can get a really good running throw speed. 
He can use it to punch you, defined as the Hand Attack above was. 
 
In short, he doesn't get any stronger, but he can do everything that a 
stronger and slower man could. 
 
1d6-1 RKA Autofire (needs any small objects) 
 
He throws things as fast as a bullet. 
 
+3 DCV (must be aware of attack) 
 
He always has time to dodge. Even when he's already acted in that phase. 
 
+15 PD (must be aware of attack) 
 
He can brace himself for impact, or get slightly out of the way, or pick 
up a nearby manhole cover to take most of the impact, or just recover 
really fast. He normally uses this one for move throughs, because he 
positions himself so that his target takes the damage, and he doesn't 
 
+7 DEF Force Field (must be aware of attack) 
 
Same as the PD, really. Or, the must be aware clause could be dropped 
and it could be a normal force field based on vibration or something. 
 
Deflection Bullets 
 
He normally catches them so he can throw them back with his RKA if he 
wants to. 
 
Instant Change 
 
He can obviously change into and out of costume quickly.  
 
Images of Self 
 
He can use the images to make himself seem to run faster than the human 
eye can follow. Or he can appear to be in two places at once. 
 
10 STR TK AE 1 Hex 
 
By running around a target, he can make a small whirlwind to lift them 
up. Or he can spin his arm around to make a fan effect to knock someone 
down. And lots of other tricks. 
 
CE: 1 Hex Any superspeed effect 
 
He can sort a stack of files, clean a room, stir a cake mix, etc. 
 
 
>All in all, a reasonably priced Speedster! 
 
That was the goal. I got tired of local gamers complaining that you 
can't make a 250 speedster, so I proved them wrong (and consistently 
beat the rest of the team when we fought each other in danger room 
settings). 
 
Dave 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 06:08:56 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 25 
 
At 01:45 AM 12/9/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< It's like we were totally abandoned. >> 
> 
>  Not at all. You can always contact us or Hero Games via e-mail, snail mail, 
>on AOL or CompuServe, or in the internet newsgroups. 
> 
><< But to totally disapear from Hero's public forum looks pretty bad. And 
then 
>to only re-appear in order to promote new products is even worse. >> 
> 
>  Well, for one thing, there is more to the public forum than this list, 
>although I can appreciate your feelings and concerns. As for my arrival, what 
>can I say? Here I am. Am I a welcomed participant or an object of scorn and 
>ridicule? ;) 
 
   Both, Mark... just like everyone else.   ;-] 
   Seriously, I think the folks on this list occasionally forget that there 
are a newsgroup and an AOL message folder dedicated to Hero gaming (though 
admittedly the newsgroup is superheroic gaming in general). 
 
><< 3. Totally new Universe? In this 'verse there's no "Hudson City" off in 
>another state somewhere? (like Metropolis and Gotham). >> 
> 
>  Just because it's a new universe doesn't mean we don't have our own "Hudson 
>City" or "Gotham." But it will be a while before you see any San Angelo 
>products for the Dark Champions crowd. 
 
   I think the original questioner was asking if San Angelo was in the 
Chammpions Universe.  And, of course, the answer is no; Hudson City, 
Chiquador, Sanctuary, and all of the established Champions Universe 
institutions do not exist here. 
 
><< 4. Is this the beginning of something (providing sales justify)? Or a one- 
>shot Tangent Universe like Strike Force was? >> 
> 
>  Oh, we wouldn't be spending thousands of dollars developing this book just 
>to let it be a one shot deal. ;)  No, SA:CoH is the first of a whole new line 
>of books for Champions 4th Ed. Be sure to check out our web site, too, for 
>info on upcoming San Angelo supplements (and other upcoming books) from GRG. 
 
   In a way, isn't it really the *third* book in the set?  I have Heroic 
Adventures Vol. 1 (I keep putting off Vol. 2), and one of the adventures is 
set in San Angelo. 
 
><< Do you or anybody else hold the rights to print more BBB's when the 
current 
>stock runs out? >> 
> 
>  Boy, you folks should check out the rec.rpg.superhero newsgroup more often! 
>:D  Our license is the same license that ICE held in recent years (before the 
>Hero/ICE split). Basically, we can publish anything for Hero System 4th Ed. 
>(not just Champions) as long as Hero Games approves it. 
> 
>  And yes, there are plans to reprint the Champions core book when current 
>copies run out. But we currently have a good number of copies of the 
Champions 
>Deluxe hardback (w/o software) that it probably won't be until late next year 
>or early '99 that you'd see a new Champions (did I say 5th Ed.?) book. 
 
   Oh, boy... when anyone with any official ties to Hero Games uses the 
phrase, "Fifth Edition," it starts heart palpitations (even if they're just 
talking about the singing group). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 06:23:34 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 27 
 
At 05:49 PM 12/9/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote: 
>-- Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
><<snipped>> 
>>         Well, actually it is done with only *one* attack action.  However, 
>> notice that for the same number of Active Points, you could do either an 
>> 18d6 EB or a 9d6 flash, either one of which is more effective than the 
>> above.  Remember that upper damage classes are usually more effective than 
>> the lower ones as defenses only go so high.  (With real points, the above 
>> work out to a 16d6 eb or an 8d6 Flash, still much more effective.) 
>> Linked is a disad because you are permenantly linking two powers -- 
>> niether can be used alone and you lose overall effectiveness of the 
>> powers. 
> 
> That last part is not quite correct.  The flash attack is linked to the  
>energy blast.  For the flash to operate, the energy blast must be fired. 
But if  
>you fire the energy blast, you do not have to activate the flash.  The 
energy  
>blast is not limited.  The flash attack is. 
 
   Rick, you just mentioned one of the two main points that sets off 
acromonious debate -- it's not called the Great Linked Debate for nothing. 
   Even Steve Peterson, the final authority on anything to do with the Hero 
System, is unsure as to whether a Power to which one is Linked can be used 
without the Linked Power.  My feeling is that even when the Limitation's 
description was being written he was changing his mind. 
   Personally, I'm in the camp that says two Linked Powers must always be 
used together.  If you could the larger one separately (goes my logic), 
then how would one Limit the Powers so that you couldn't?  You can't buy 
Linked on the larger Power (it says so right there under Linked). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 06:46:53 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Mulitple move bys 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 10:22 PM 12/8/97 -0500, Kevin J. McClain wrote: 
>I was wondering if anyone had an opinion or idea (I'm sure everyone 
>does) about how to construct a teleporting character who does multiple 
>move bys like Excalibur's Nightcrawler. Specifically the mechanics 
>behind the maneuver. In the past I allowed a character to simply do it 
>as if he were running as long as he had enough teleport inches to make 
>it to each target, in effect treating it like any other movement power. 
>Some of the gamers around here feel that the maneuver has to be 
>constructed with powers. Any ideas ? 
 
   Well, it's not really a teleporting Multiple Move By, since Teleport has 
no velocity (it's the only Movement Power without velocity). 
   What I've tried for this is applying an NND attack Linked to Teleport 
(with other appropriate Modifiers), and then making both the NND and the 
Teleport Autofire.  It stretches the rules a bit, but it works. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 07:05:20 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 05:41 PM 12/9/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade wrote: 
><<snipped>> 
>>    You are certainly correct here.  The minimum of DEF+BODY of the 
>> building, the DEF+BODY of the vehicle, and 320d6 (or, by the Champions II 
>> table, 23d6).  My mistake. 
> 
> What about the <possible urban myth> piece of straw driven through walls  
>during a cyclone (hurricane for you northern types) with no damage.  Maybe 
its a  
>little none effect of really high speeds giving immense amounts of extra PD. 
 
   That's fine for a piece of straw going through a wall or (in the 
rendition I've heard) sheet of regular paper chopping down a tree.  The 
front end of a car is somewhat blunter than that. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:30:43 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 71 
 
> > 	This whole discussion is MOOT. 
> > 
> > I can simply use "limited" to design a custom version of linked that works 
> > however I desire for the given character at hand. 
>  
> 	Hmmm.  Actually, I believe that using one limitation to simulate 
> another would be verboten in Hero terms. 
 
	'verboten'? 
Well, I can use limited to design any limitation I desire. So I could just 
design a limitation that reads: 
	"Power X can only be used when power Y is in use", then assign that 
limitation to power X. 
 
	Or for the other side of the camp, I make a limitation that says: 
 
	"Powers X and Y can only be used in combination". 
 
Nothing illegal there. The only argument now is what are they worth? 
-1/4, -1/2, or -3/4. 
	And that's a GM call. Personally, in my games the first one 
would be a -1/2 on power X. The second would be a -1/2 on the less 
expensive of the two powers. 
 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 07:48:57 -0800 
From: Nicole Webb <nwebb@ups.edu> 
Subject: regarding champion adventures breaking up the monotony 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 28 
 
Tokyo Mark wrote: 
>   I've kept considering doing a villain game sometime, 
> but I doubt my group would be into it.  Even when I run gray morality 
> games right now, they play heros.:) 
>  
 
        If you want to run a villian game with your group, you need only 
guidethem toward it.  Players are pliable, and as long as you don't run 
a game they have no interest in, at all, you shuld be able to get them 
where you want them. 
        One way to add a nefarious eliment to our elete role-model 
squadron,is to warp one character and let him loose.  Secretly set up a 
game time with Captian Wonderful, away from the rest of the team, 
Makeing sure to tell Captian Wonderful not to dicuss the session with 
Mr. Magnificance, or Altruisim Girl.  When your chipper little victom 
arives, smile your best smile, then drag him through moral greyness, and 
mind games.  Do not relent until the poor captian is quite insain, then 
proceed with your campain. 
        Alternitively, if you want the whole group to wear black hats, 
be a little insidious about character creation.  Tell your players not 
to share information about their characters outside the game session, 
then sit down with each player before they write up characters, and give 
them some guidance.  During your individual guidance session, encorage 
secrets and deception, and tell everybody that sombody is working 
against the group.  Also suggest, to each player that the group may be 
working against them. 
    The distrust this will cause will go a long way toward creating a 
villianous flavor.  Spice this up with some important questions about 
modivation, and means of operation, and you ought to be able to squeeze 
villians out of the most heroic players. 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: GRG, San Angelino, and even Sengoku (was Re: Greetings) 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:13:20 +0000 (GMT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 77 
 
> to change that trend. But as I said earlier, I'm here now. bend my ear. ;) 
> 
	Better be careful saying that. Someone at a con might just reach 
across the table and do it. :) 
  
>   Understood. One quick question... is there a DIGEST version of this thing? 
> My e-mail has doubled in the last day! <LOL> And that's saying something! 
> 
	You and me both. Just wait till somebody bounces something. :) 
I'd learn to use filters if I were you. I set em up on netscape and home 
so I can have it all presorted before I get to it. That way I don't have 
to deal with topics I don't follow. 
  
>   None of the above. I don't know about you guys, by feeling is that more 
> Hero-sympathetic people in WotC is a *good* thing. Shadis has already run an 
> article for AD&D. I would say that times are changing, and for the better. Who 
> knows. Perhaps AD&D --> Fuzion --> Hero System conversions are coming down the 
> pike? No secret info, just speculation. 
> 
	Well, I must say I hope you're right. The guys at the local store here 
in San Francisco tell me the CCG market is dying at their end, with the 
sole exception of Magic. WoTC may have just gone into AD&D in order to 
ensure they have a broad enough line in case things go bad in one of them. A 
smart company keeps many lines, even poorly performing ones. As what's hot 
today is cold tommorow, and what's cold today may be hot tommorow. 
	If they're really smart they'd make a grab for the video game market 
and use all three to promote each other; ensuring greater stability in lean 
times. 
  
> << BTW, who in their right mind would hire Steve P. to sell / market anything? 
> Considering Hero's great success in the market. :) >> 
>   That's a pretty cheap shot. For one thing, ICE was in charge of advertising 
> and marketing the Hero products, not Hero. I guess you could say the same 
> thing about us, then. 
> 
	Ok yeah, you're right. I remember ICE mostly used Hero to promote 
Rolemaster, with very little of the reverse. Or so it both appeared and the 
rumor mill claimed. 
  
> << If it's anything like Astro City you can count me in. >> 
>  
>   Funny. I get that reaction a lot. I can tell you that Kurt Busiek has seen 
> even given us a quote to use. San Angelo is certainly *not* an "Astro City 
> RPG," but probably as close as you will ever come to one. 
> 
	Perhaps this tells you something. 
The fans (at least this one) want 4-color but realistic. Or rather "4-color 
Modern" as our local group has taken to calling it. A world where Heroes 
are Heroes. Where there is no rationale behind "Super-Powers", They just 
exist. Where heroes have morals, but are not perfect. They make mistakes but 
understand it when they do. 
	I think current comic industry troubles have shown that the "Image" 
style of amoral T&A is doing more harm than good to the industry. Comics have 
lost the respect they achieved for a short while in the 80's. 
 
>   Absolutely not. We will be posted Fuzion stats for characters to our web 
> site, but the 4th Ed. books will remain just that -- 4th Ed. books. 
> 
	That's cool. I personally think Fuzion is incomplete. I think in it's 
current incarnation, it doesn't handle the super genre well. Heck, I'd say 
GURPS works better. I hero and V&V where gone today, and I couldn't find a 
used copy of DC, I'd use GURPS before Fuzion. For Sci Fi I might use Fuzion. 
	And once Usagi hits the stands here you can bet it will be on my 
bookshelf. No, let me restate that. I'll be dragging it around in my 
bookbag like some geek kid, trying to find people willing to do a serious 
'furry' game. 
	Any plans to expand Sengoku out to China and Korea. I'd kill for a 
game that did a good job of showing 'medevil Korea'. I get so tired of 
reminding people it exists and played so major a role in the history of 
the region. 
 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
X-Originating-IP: [206.88.2.1] 
From: "Todd Hanson" <badtodd@hotmail.com> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 10:18:56 CST 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 29 
 
GoldRushG said: 
 
>  Hey, it's great to be on the list! If I can answer any other  
qwuestions, let 
>me have 'em! Those that are more for Hero Games I will have to defer to  
Steve 
>Peterson, though. 
 
Okay, here's one for you: 
 
Are there any plans for more superhero miniatures in the foreseeable  
future?  Ever since Soldiers & Sorcery (? is that the name? doesnt sound  
exactly right) stopped doing the Champions minis (did they go out of  
business?), there's nobody left doing superhero miniatures. 
 
Is this something you guys would even be involved in?  If someone were  
to produce quality superhero miniatures, would Gold Rush Games be  
interested in marketing them? 
 
 
Todd 
 
______________________________________________________ 
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 10:39:10 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
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At 10:05 PM 12/8/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>Linked is a disad because you are permenantly linking two powers -- 
>niether can be used alone and you lose overall effectiveness of the 
>powers. 
 
And because it is the philosophy of the game designers that the mere 
strategum of using 2 powers together isn't as effective as using one bigger 
power.   
 
Imagine 2 Linked 5d6 EBs vs. 1 10d6 EB.  Since you get defenses against each 
attack, the second power is a superior construction and thus should cost 
more than the first. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 10:39:14 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 05:48 PM 12/9/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>AJ> Universal Foci.  Gives 'usable by others' for free. 
> 
>Almost... it ties back to having to pay for anything that you frequently 
>use.  If you frequently loan your Focused powers out to your allies, those 
>to whom you loan should purchase the powers for themselves. 
 
Uh ... no.  Rather, you "pay" for this ability with the possibility of 
having the power stolen AND used *against* you by your enemies.  And in any 
case, even if it got REALLY obnoxious, I'd prefer to make the single 
character work out a UBO structure rather than require other characters to 
pay points for what is still an ability of the first.   
 
They benefit from it, but only to the same degree that a character benefits 
from the presence of any teammate.  I'm currently in a campaign where I play 
the brickish sidekick [Castle] of swashbuckling vigilante Cavalier.  Does he 
pay for super strength, OAF: Castle? Should I buy chemistry skills, IAF: 
Cavalier? 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 10:39:16 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
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At 02:48 PM 12/9/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>On Monday, December 08, 1997 11:13 PM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
><snip> 
>> 
>> Actually, both attacks *are* limited, you are only allowed the 
>>disad on the one, however, for balance reasons.  That's part of the 
>>disadvantage, you get points for the smaller, but both are affected. 
>> 
> 
>Again, there is no official ruling. You are both right. 
 
In fact, to be more accurate, there's no such thing as an "official ruling" 
in HERO.  Steve Peterson says: 
 
        "Our official position is that all rules are optional; each GM  
        should decide for themselves what rules to use. The rules in  
        the Hero System rulebook (which is included in Champions 4th 
        Edition) cover most situations pretty well. However, we've  
        presented many other rules in other books, either as variants 
        or rules for other situations not covered in the basic rules. 
        Whether or not those rules are used is up to the GM in each  
        case; we don't think that our opinion should be held over that 
        of an individual GM. Each GM should make their rule choices as  
        they see fit, to make the game suit their own style, and their  
        sense of what is fun. We tend to like most of the optional  
        rules we've presented, otherwise we wouldn't have presented  
        them.  But that doesn't mean we use those rules all of the  
        time, or that all of us at Hero hold each of those rules in  
        the same esteem. Opinions vary, and that's as it should be, or  
        so we think." 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: San Angelino (Re: Greetings) 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:47:38 +0000 (GMT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 79 
 
> << I personally am looking forward to seeing "San Angelo: City of Heroes" I 
> down loaded the promo, I had some trouble with the formating, but as for 
> content it read really well, and seemed to be headed in the right direction. 
>  
>   Thank you. Pat (the author) will appreciate the comments. In fact, I *may* 
> be able to get him on this list, too. 
>  
> << What type of characters will be in the book? Will we be bale to get 
> electronic versions from the web site?  Fusion versions? Heromaker? >> 
> 
Question on San Angelino: 
 
1.	What's the ethnic makeup? And don't just tell me 'everyone'. :) 
	This plays a major role in cultures and relations. 
	Are the asian groups Chinese, Korean, Mhong, Philipino, Laotian, 
	Vietnamese... 
	Are my hispanics Mexican, Mexican-American, Guatamalin, Columbian, 
	Cuban (not likely on the west coast...), Peruvian... 
	Are my caucasians WASP, Russian emmigrants, Irish, Italian... 
	Are my blacks Carribean, Afro-American, African... 
	Pakistani or Indian? 
	Any Reservations nearby? 
	Do they get along like in SF, or kill each other when possible like in 
	LA? 
	Seperate neighborhoods (LA), or mixed in on the same streets (SF)? 
 
2. 	Are we thinking a Northen CA style community or Southern CA style? It 
	read like a southern city from the intro. Kind of made me think of 
	San Diego meets Santa Cruz. 
	Yeah yeah, I know Santa Cruz is almost Northern... but they have 
	that beach boy thing going... 
	You know, northern is typical liberal, counterculture, lots of 
	fringe groups, and multi-ethnic. 
	southern is more conservative, trend setting, hollywood, anti 
	immigrant, seperate races. 
 
3.	With the 'scientific' origin of powers, what kinds of origins are 
	going to be 'out'? No magic, faerie realm, undead, psycho-activated 
	(I think I am, therefore reality for me became that way), alien, 
	X-dimensional, destiny, demi-god, etc type origins? I imagine it's 
	too late, but I personally prefer worlds that leave the nature of 
	Super Powers as vague and unknown. Leaving the field open to all the 
	genre's full absurdity. 
 
4.	There's more stuff to say, but I'll get to it as I think of it. 
 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:01:29 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 80 
 
> <snip> 
> >  And yes, there are plans to reprint the Champions core book when 
> current 
> >copies run out. But we currently have a good number of copies of the 
> Champions 
> >Deluxe hardback (w/o software) that it probably won't be until late 
> next year 
> >or early '99 that you'd see a new Champions (did I say 5th Ed.?) 
> book. 
>  
> Good question. Did you say 5th Ed.? If so, listen to this group 
> frequently, and take lots of notes. 
> 
	Yeah. 
 
That's a common topic in here. The old: 
 
	"If you were to write 5th edition, what would you change?" 
 
In fact, we just finished that one a week or two before you joined. 
Somebody may have it archived if you want to know. I know I still have 
my wish list at home. :) 
 
  
	Much as I just told you to hold back the spam ( :) ); I'd 
love it if you used us for market reseach into what would make good 
future products. 
 
	Remember for every one of us in here, there is often a whole 
gaming group out there that we GM or talk with. So word from here 
does spread pretty far at times. 
 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:18:42 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 81 
 
> >Well, I can use limited to design any limitation I desire. So I could just 
> >design a limitation that reads: 
> >	"Power X can only be used when power Y is in use", then assign that 
> >limitation to power X. 
> > 
> >	Or for the other side of the camp, I make a limitation that says: 
> > 
> >	"Powers X and Y can only be used in combination". 
> > 
> >Nothing illegal there. The only argument now is what are they worth? 
> >-1/4, -1/2, or -3/4. 
> >	And that's a GM call. Personally, in my games the first one 
> >would be a -1/2 on power X. The second would be a -1/2 on the less 
> >expensive of the two powers. 
> > 
> In which case, I (if in your games) would take the first on both Powers, 
> since I save more points, and it does the same as the second.  Exactly the 
> same. 
>  
	In which case as a GM I would simply remove it from the larger power. 
Or rule that since X has to be on to use Y, and Y has to be on to use X, you 
can't use either since neither can ever come on... 
	Chicken or the Egg after all. 
 
HOWEVER. I do like what I'm hearing here from others about the first one 
being only a -1/4 lim. I'll have to think about why I listed it as a -1/2. 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:06:13 -0200 (EDT) 
From: Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria <gevaerd@laranjeiras.lci.ufrj.br> 
Reply-To: Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria <gevaerd@laranjeiras.lci.ufrj.br> 
Subject: Re: regarding champion adventures breaking up the monotony 
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> Tokyo Mark wrote: 
> >   I've kept considering doing a villain game sometime, 
> > but I doubt my group would be into it.  Even when I run gray morality 
> > games right now, they play heros.:) 
 
  Err well... the opposite happens to me. In about 5 adventures, each 
lasting about 2 or 3 sessions, 3 of my "heroes" died. And ALL of those 
deaths were generated by the others "heroes" in the group. I let them 
create the heroes with any personality they wanted, I just did not let 
anyone whose personality would be of a robber, evil person, etc. So I 
would say that with one exception, all of them are lunatic (the exception 
is one of those killed :))  
  One of them already killed some policemen and almost killed one member 
of the group (the exception, killed later) thanks to his beserk :) 
   
  The Deaths:  
 
  One was smashed down to -15 body (got impariment on his chest) and died 
from his bleedings cause the brick tried to carry him, but he has an awful 
disadvantage: he doesn't have good control of his strength (110), he 
always uses A LOT MORE he wants to. 
  Another one had about 5 psycological limitations, all circling around 
things like: likes to give orders, does not accept ANY kind of humilation, 
likes to say jokes about people, etc. This one, in the first adventure he 
participated with the group was just like this: he started to give orders 
to the group, and as always the group ignored (almost everyone ignores one 
another). He does not like to be ignored, so he shot a weak energy blast 
on them. They kept ignoring him and went away, with one exception who 
stood still. He kept giving order to him, increasing the power of his 
shots and finally the other guy got pissed off, autofired on him, he got 
stunned and his force field turned off... as the force field turned off 
the other guy did not think twice... AUTOFIRE ON HIM! And I did not even 
had the opportunity to use his 14d6 of unluck. 
  And finally the other one was captured by his hunters, an organization 
more powerful that appeared very frequently that he wanted to put as a 
disadvantage on his char. As at that time almost all the rest of the group 
was unconcious, because this PC arrived too late when they called him (he 
was fooling around on his secret id), so he had to fight the hunters 
almost alone. Captured, they put a bomb necklace on him, if he disobeyed 
the orders they would explode his head off. When the group went there to 
try to rescue him, they fought each other (his capturers ordered him to 
neutralize the intruders) and he was knocked out. One person of the group 
saw the necklace and broke it. It was also triggered to explode if broke, 
so the wearer died and the one who broke it almost died (saved by his 
regeneration... the brick also carried him and only did not kill him 
because he has a biological armor, regeneration and there was already 
paramedics outside the base (they made a big confusion before going into 
the base (second death - the like-to-give-orders guy), what brought 
policemen (some was killed by the berserk guy) and paramedics)).  
 
     From the initial group only two characters are still alive, the guy 
with berserk, and the guy with regeneration. 
     I can see much more deaths on the future... and they happen really in 
funny ways... caused by the PCs, of course :). 
     I have not against these crazy kinds of heroes... actually I prefer 
them... make the game much more funny and unpredictable. 
 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 18:28:36 +0000 
From: ORT2 <ORT2@prodigy.net> 
Reply-To: ORT2@prodigy.net 
Organization: Prodigy Internet 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
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> Are there any plans for more superhero miniatures in the foreseeable 
> future?  Ever since Soldiers & Sorcery (? is that the name? doesnt sound 
> exactly right) stopped doing the Champions minis (did they go out of 
> business?), there's nobody left doing superhero miniatures. 
>  
> 
To my knowledge,  the company did go out of bussiness (taking about a 
$100 dollar order that I had send and sending me nothing in return, 
bummer).  I would be interested in a company that did sell Super Hero 
minatures, but I would be a bit hesitant to order from them initially 
(fool me once shame on you, foo me twice, well you know the rest). 
 
Just putting in my 28.8 1/2 bps worth 
 
Owen 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Date: 09 Dec 1997 14:35:13 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "UTI" == Urklore The Iron <urklore@tiac.net> writes: 
 
UTI> The link is a 1/2 disadvantage, but is it really? 
 
That depends on whether it is a limitation or not. 
 
Seriously. 
 
If the use of the power is somehow restricted, then it is a limitation.  If 
the use of the power is not restricted, then it is not a limitation and it 
is worth no bonus.  If the modifer allows a power to do something that it 
is not normally capable of doing it is an advantage. 
 
It is really that simple, so draw your own conclusions. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Date: 09 Dec 1997 14:38:39 -0500 
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>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> When I lost my only set of keys to a car I had just bought, I called a 
F> locksmith. He took a blank key and a file, put the key in the lock, 
F> wiggled it, examined the marks this made, and filed it with the 
F> cylindrical file. 
 
Yup.  This is a common locksmith's trick.  Using a slim jim can damage the 
locking mechanism, especially if you have power locks.  This technique will 
not break anything, and it is pretty much guaranteed to work given a 
locksmith of professional caliber (11-). 
 
The drawback is that it takes much longer than any other method. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:54:04 -0800 
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On Monday, December 08, 1997 5:07 PM, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
 
>On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Filksinger wrote: 
> 
>> Long ago, the Paranoia game recommended that, in the event that 
>> nuclear weapons are used, you should run over the playing area with 
a 
>> lawn mower.:) 
> 
>And then there was the NATO/Warsaw Pact simulation that recommended 
>lighting the mapboard on  fire in advent of a nuclear exchange. 
 
You forgot the lighter fluid. 
 
I have a friend who used to work for SGI. That was _his_ rule. 
 
Please forgive me for forgetting it, John! Oh, the shame! 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:55:05 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: The PC becoming a NPC ( a story)... 
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Ok, it has been a long time since we talked about this.  I've been behind on  
catching up with Champions mail.  Just lurking for the most part, but saving  
stuff I've been meaning to reply to and trying to keep it timely.  This post  
isn't timely, but someone did want to hear about it.  A while back when we  
were talking about the Pet NPC, I mentioned that one of my players turned  
his PC into a NPC by choice and someone asked for the story of how this came  
about.  So sit back and enjoy the tale, comment if you wish, but try not to  
criticize.  This game happened over a year ago, all of the players enjoyed  
the game including the one that died and the one that became the NPC, so  
without further chatter from me, I'll go on.   
 
It seems that the Rock Band, the Grave Diggers consisted mostly of mutants.   
Mutants that were constantly getting in trouble with the law and naturally  
attracting the attention of Genocide on a regular basis and usually foiling  
their plans.  The band consisted of the lead singer and animal polymorph,  
Tigger.  She was married to Viper one of the band's guitar's player who was  
a powerful energy manipulator capable of creating a strong forcefield and  
energy punch.  The second guitar player was a master martial artist and had  
one basic power of turning of invisible, his name was Pitbull.  Viper had a  
brother who appeared later known as CrossRoads.  He shared the power as his  
brother, capable of creating a powerful forcefield, but only around his  
hands, not only did he have the capability for a high energy punch, but he  
could blast the energy from his hands as well.  Then there is the star of  
our story, Croc.  He joined the band as a drummer.  He was capable of  
turning into living metal with strength and armor equal to well...ok, you  
get the idea, a version of Colossus from Marvel. 
 
Now that you know the cast, on with the story (I'll try to keep it short).... 
 
In the first part of the campaign Tigger, Viper, and Pitbull are captured by  
Genocide.  An explosive collar is placed around all three of their necks  
that also prohibits the use of their powers.  Tigger and Viper were handed  
over to an unstable doctor for genetic experimenting.  Pitbull was thrown  
into a holding cell until he died or some useful project could be assigned  
to him.  When Croc and CrossRoads came in for the rescue saving Pitbull and  
scaring the unstable Doctor, he released Tigger but then shot himself in the  
head and died before removing Viper's collar.  Viper hearing all the gunfire  
and explosions told Tigger to leave him, he would find his own way out and  
rejoin her as usual.  The romantic kiss, she turns into a fox and slips out  
the air ducts.  Viper finding the control pad for the collars with unlabled  
buttons starts pushing buttons at random.  He heard the death scream and  
explosion of a fellow mutant off in the distance.  He then gave it some  
thought, "If I press the wrong button, I die.  Oh well, you only live once."  
 To his shock he failed, the collar screamed then exploded thus killing Viper.   
 
A few months later.  Tigger finds little comfort with the death of Viper.   
CrossRoads does the best he can to fill his brother's void, but he still can  
not fill the role of the husband she lost.  In a local battle with a few low  
level supervillians, CrossRoads snaps and brings a building down on top of  
the entire team.  Croc easily tosses the rubble aside digging out Tigger who  
was lucky enough to become a fox and find a small air pocket.  He then  
locates Pitbull, badly hurt, but alive, and CrossRoads who was amazed and  
unscathed by the damage he did.  One more suprise was dug up though, Viper,  
not dead, but unconscious.   
 
They took the Pitbull and Viper back to the med lab at base where they  
called in a doctor to take a look at Viper.  He was alive, but there was  
something odd about him.  While Croc, Tigger, and CrossRoads were standing  
around him in disbelief, he rose from the table, started hovering turned  
into a demon, and opened a portal that dragged the three heroes into the  
Underworld.   
 
It seems a certain demon took interest in the Grave Diggers and wanted his  
own collection. Viper, though technically dead was whole here and a  
prisoner.  He was bait to grab the rest of the Grave Diggers.   
 
Ok, so this story is going on longer than I hoped.  I'm going to cut to the  
main part of this.  Fights happen, freedom is almost gained, then the main  
demon of the realm shows up.  Remember this story is about a PC becoming a  
NPC Villian.   
 
The demon approaches them, though the heroes plan on fighting for their  
lives, the demon makes them a better offer.  He will grant them anything  
they want for their souls.   
 
Croc steps up and says, "In that case, I want to be the most powerful being  
in the Underworld."  The demon laughs, "Little man, wish granted, but you  
will find that your mortal shell can not contain that power."   
 
In a flash Croc begins to glow red hot, his facial features begin to distort  
and melt, but with a wave of his hands he sends his friends, including Viper  
back to Earth, alive and well.  Then he screams for mercy, "I will be a  
general in your army if you let me live!"  With a grin the demon accepts.   
 
The other players and myself ask if he knows what he is saying here, at best  
he could be a PC Villian at worst, he loses the character and it becomes a  
NPC.  He knows, as I said in the thread a long time ago, he had planned from  
day one to turn this character into a villian, he was just looking for the  
right time.  Becoming a general in a demon's army was a pretty impressive  
villian versus becoming a bank robber or something along those lines.  Since  
then, he has played the character as a villian twice and the character has  
showed up as an NPC twice which he has fought against.  Everyone seems to  
enjoy the villian's appearance whenever he is in a game. 
 
Well, that is it.  Sorry where I babbled on and sorry where I cut it short.   
If you have questions, I can try to answer, I'm sure this isn't completely  
accurate anyway since it was a year ago.  Sorry if the writing seems  
patchworked and for any typing errors, this was done late at night, then  
worked on more early in the morning.  Just sending it out now.  Take it easy  
and talk at you later. 
 
 
Sparx 
 
===================================================== 
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children. 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 14:58:10 -0500 
From: "Aldo J. Regalado" <aregalad@miami.edu> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
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Greetings Yourself! 
 
I for one am VERY pleased to read your announcement and am anxiously 
anticipating the San Angelo line of products. I downloaded the first two 
chapters and I liked what I read. It seems like the type of supplement I've 
been waiting for for years. Well thought out, well planned supplements that 
flow into each other and make a concious effort to build a campaign have 
been sorely lacking in the HERO line. 
 
I have not (and will not) buy any of the recent Champions supplements. I'm 
not bitter about this, but I just don't have an interest in them. However, 
rest assured that I'll buy San Angelo. 
 
Take care, 
 
Dragonfly 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:58:54 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
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I know I'm behind here, but I really wanted to toss in two fights I really  
enjoyed, both are fun fights, not too serious, but they both popped into my  
mind instantly. 
 
The Hulk vs X-Factor (Multiple Man in particular) 
 
The Tick vs the The Tick (Barry from the cartoon) 
        Barry:  Say Uncle 
        Tick:  Ok, Uncle 
 
        Barry:  What IS MY NAME!!!??? 
        Tick:  Barry, Barry, Barry, Barry, Barry... 
 
Take it easy and talk at you later. 
 
 
Sparx 
 
===================================================== 
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children. 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:01:29 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Making the Speedster 
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I don't know if someone posted this yet or not, but I was working on a  
Speedster a while back and someone sent me this file.  So here it is: 
 
Absorption : how about a speedster that absorbs kinetic energy, hence 
that's why they move so fast. Put the points into flight/running. 
 
Aid: Here's an odd one, aid (or drain) to flight while running. Basically 
the wind currents from your fantastic speed add to your people in the 
area. (Use area effect, must be moving) 
 
Armor: Bullet has extra armor (helmet) only for move throughs. 
 
Change Enviroment: Create fantastic winds as you breeze past. OR change 
the currents of the stream/ocean. 
(Flash often made winds, or caused tidal waves. Be careful your not using 
another power here though) 
 
Clairsentience: Move around so fast, it's like seeing in two or three 
places at the same time! (use all senses, not through locked rooms, 
limited range) 
 
Darkness: Clouds of dust as you run, breezing whirlwinds, and probably 
some others. 
 
Desolidification: Move so fast you just can't be hit. Vibrate your body 
(ala the Flash) so that your molecules will vibrate and become 
intangible. (this one is stretching it, but it IS from DC books) 
 
Duplication: well, this is an odd way of doing a speedster. Duplicate 
only lasts while moving. 
("Damn, He moves so fast it looks like theres 4 of him!) 
 
Energy Blast: Energy blast, defined as a punch.Good way to attack hand to 
hand and still end up in a different hex from your opponent. 
(How did he hit me from there?!) Also of course, Autofire, area effect 
selective target (wow, he ran past and punched everyone in the room). 
 
Enhanced Senses: WEll, if you can be aware while moving at 200 mph + 
per   hour, then many different types of senses might make sense. 
 
Entangle: Coils rapped around people, nets, wind tunnels or vortexes 
preventing movement (combined with NND attacks that remove air), bags 
over the head, building steel cages around the person, building a small 
fort, whatever... 
 
Extra Dimensional movement: Moving faster than light, our hero found 
himself Propelled through time. 
 
Faster than LIght Travel: I included this one as a power that some 
speedsters think they can use, and generally can not. It requires space 
flight, which few true speedsters actually have (unless it's a true 
flying speedster) 
 
Flash: Dust, placing a blindfold on someone, putting a bag on thier head, 
pulling their shirt over their head, many more.. 
 
Flight: This is the best way to by truly super running. In fact, the only 
reason to by running instead for a speedster, is for a more basic, 
grittier feel, and to avoid the turn mode difficulty.  with running, you 
can't go up buildings (without 
clinging), Run across water, move across flying shards of glass on an 
exploding building (the flash again...i loved this one) and all those 
other cool tricks. 
 
Gliding: When you have that much momentum, it would be nice to slow 
yourself down. Perhaps your speedster has reduced masss which helps 
explain their speed. This would allow gliding easily. 
 
HtH attack: In the few games where this is legal, it's very useful. Too 
useful. Many people feel the power should not exist, but it does. 
 
Images: Make after images of yourself across the room. Basically keep 
moving back and forth so fast, that it looks like theres two of you, or a 
trail of you. 
 
Instant change: Well, with the recent Usable on others thread, I doubt 
theres much I can add. Basically, blink, a new outfit. 
 
Invisibility: ("Wow. He moves so fast I can't even see him") 
 
Knockback resistance: just moving forward to counter being knocked back. 
 
life Support: Well, in reality, if you COULD run at MACH 1+ you'd need to 
not have to breath, immune to heat. 
 
Mind Link: Getting to the really ridiculous, running to almost anywhere 
in the world someone is, to relay messages only. Would take some 
explaining for why you can't do more than relay messages. Maybe 
Clairsentience + Images would be better. 
 
Mind Scan: One of the first weird ones I pulled. Running through the city 
at incredible speeds, searching every room, every building, every nook 
and cranny, our hero found the villian in jsut a few seconds :) 
 
Missle Deflection and Reflection: Running ahead of the bullets, he 
grabbed them and veered htem in a new direction, pointed straight back at 
the one who pulled the trigger. 
 
Regeneration: "Good thing my super metabolism heals at such an 
extraordinairy rate" 
 
Running: useful for those gritter mood speedsters. sometimes you might 
add running  and flight to get around the turn mode difficulty 
 
Stretching: LIke EB, just define it as actually moving to a place, and 
moving back. 
 
Summon: "Wait here guys. I'll run out to the woods 75 miles away, and 
grab a forest animal at random" OR "We're lost in a desert with no one 
around, I'll run into town really quick and get someone to help us, then 
bring htem back here." 
 
Superleap: Another movement power, this can work fine. Legs that can run 
that fst, can surely jump. 
 
Suppress: movement powers (grab em, put them back wehere they were), 
physical thrown things (similar to deflection, lowering the velocity) 
*This is really pushing it* 
 
Swimming: Movement powers rule! 
 
Telekinisis: "Watch, I can run over to that table, pour myself a drink, 
and bring it back here so fast, you'll never see me move!" 
 
Teleportation: Second only to flight in simulating amazing movement. Just 
like Invisibility, basically moving so fast no one saw you move. (No 
floating locations, not through locked rooms) 
"Damn, how'd he get out here, we left him in there" 
 
Transform: Theres always uses for transform. As others mentioned, 
changing someones clothes MIGHT be a transform, Transform full glass to 
empty glass (see telekinises), empty gas tank to full gas tank: barren 
wall to painted wall, dirty kitchen to clean kitchen, Tall grass to mowed 
lawn...etc.. 
 
Tunneling: Fastest shovel in the west! 
 
Talents: 
Absolute time sense 
Bump of direction (I'll run ahead and make sure we're going the right way!) 
Eidetic Memory:"Hmm..I'll run across town and look that up again, jsut to 
be sure!" 
Fast Draw: for that heroic level speedster (?!) 
Lightning calculator (obvious) 
SImulate Death: "My complete control over my hyper metabolism, allows me 
to slow my heartbeat to a crawl!" 
 
Speed reading: (And a HALF..theres probalby a better way to simulate this) 
 
Universal Translator: I just thought of this one. "Damn, I don't speak 
Chinese, Let me run to china inbetween sentences, to ask someone what you 
are saying!" (perhaps only with earth languages as a limitation") 
 
 
Take it easy and talk at you later. 
 
 
Sparx 
 
===================================================== 
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children. 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:04:54 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters? 
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Off hand I can think of Blue Streak from one of the Almanacs or Champions  
Presents.  I'm sure there are more, but I just used him lately so I know he  
is there.  Take it easy and talk at you later. 
 
 
Sparx 
 
===================================================== 
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children. 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:05:20 -0800 
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On Monday, December 08, 1997 5:37 PM, Urklore The Iron wrote: 
 
 
>The link is a 1/2 disadvantage, but is it really? 
> 
>Let's say I want to have a Hero who wields twin UZIs. Each has a 
5-shot 
>Autofire. Normally he would have one and only fire 5 shots, if I put 
a link 
>disadvantage to one of the guns and link it to the main gun. We now 
have an 
>attack that can do TWO 5-shot autofires!! At a reduced point cost on 
the 
>second power to boot!!! Does anyone see a problem with this. 
>Another example is I could have a 12d6 photon blast, and link a 3d6 
flash 
>to it as well. Now we have a 12d6 EB along with a 3d6 flash (even 
though it 
>does require another hit roll) that can be done all in one phase. 
 
You have a point, but you are only partly correct. Linked powers fire 
as _one_ power, thus, you cannot use them on separate targets. Thus, 
two linked 5-shot autofires act as one 10-shot autofire, but cost 
more. You can shoot more than one person, but only because you can do 
that with autofire anyway. The only real advantage, which is also a 
disadvantage, is that you can only shoot five targets instead of ten, 
but you hit each target twice. 
 
However, in your second example, you only need one hit roll. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:09:57 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Hey I wouldn't mind seeing the new city book.  Along with that I was just  
thinking I throw out some other things I wouldn't mind seeing.  I'm behind  
on e-mail so I figure this has probably already gone on, or maybe I'll start  
a new thread :) 
 
I personally wouldn't mind seeing more Ultimate Books, more Endless Enemies  
(I use them for everything).  Scenario books are good ecspecially when they  
include a good handful of new villians.  Something along the lines of  
Classic Champions would be nice where we could see some of the older  
villians from all those enemy books actually upgraded and in some sort of  
scenario thus giving them more depth, so a scenario book where we see some  
old faces with face lifts is what I'm saying here.  Well, just my two cents  
worth.  Take it easy and talk at you later. 
 
 
Sparx 
 
===================================================== 
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children. 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 15:15:25 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 01:58 PM 12/9/97 -0600, Sparx wrote: 
>The Tick vs the The Tick (Barry from the cartoon) 
>        Barry:  Say Uncle 
>        Tick:  Ok, Uncle 
> 
>        Barry:  What IS MY NAME!!!??? 
>        Tick:  Barry, Barry, Barry, Barry, Barry... 
> 
Good choice.  "Who's the jerk who calls himself the Tick?"  "I am that jerk." 
 
- Jerry 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:32:56 -0500 
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Filksinger said: 
>> He took a blank key and a file, put the key in the lock, 
>> wiggled it, examined the marks this made, and filed it with the 
>> cylindrical file. 
 
Rat said: 
>Yup.  This is a common locksmith's trick 
>The drawback is that it takes much longer than any other method. 
 
One advantage, though, is that it's quick and portable. If I want to get 
into your car or your home, I can quickly jiggle a key in your lock, and 
come back later with a perfect match. Very inconspicuous. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: The Tick (was Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1) 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:59:12 -0500 
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>>The Tick vs the The Tick (Barry from the cartoon) 
>>        Barry:  Say Uncle 
>>        Tick:  Ok, Uncle 
>> 
>>        Barry:  What IS MY NAME!!!??? 
>>        Tick:  Barry, Barry, Barry, Barry, Barry... 
 
>Good choice.  "Who's the jerk who calls himself the Tick?"  "I am that 
jerk." 
 
 
Actually, for verbal sparring, I preferred the Tick versus the Common 
Cold, myself. 
 
"It's Thrakazog!" 
"Box of frogs?" 
 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:02:21 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
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> 	This whole discussion is MOOT. 
> 
> I can simply use "limited" to design a custom version of linked that works 
> however I desire for the given character at hand. 
 
 
	Hmmm.  Actually, I believe that using one limitation to simulate 
another would be verboten in Hero terms. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 16:10:00 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: The Tick (was Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 03:59 PM 12/9/97 -0500, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>>>The Tick vs the The Tick (Barry from the cartoon) 
>>>        Barry:  Say Uncle 
>>>        Tick:  Ok, Uncle 
>>> 
>>>        Barry:  What IS MY NAME!!!??? 
>>>        Tick:  Barry, Barry, Barry, Barry, Barry... 
> 
>>Good choice.  "Who's the jerk who calls himself the Tick?"  "I am that 
>jerk." 
> 
>Actually, for verbal sparring, I preferred the Tick versus the Common 
>Cold, myself. 
> 
>"It's Thrakazog!" 
>"Box of frogs?" 
> 
"Four yacks and a dog?" 
"Sapsucker frog?" 
"Susan?" 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:11:22 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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> That depends on whether it is a limitation or not. 
 
	Well duh.  But you'll probably take this bvious statement to try 
to force through the untrue and unobvious. 
 
> Seriously. 
 
	Just stalling, here. 
 
> If the use of the power is somehow restricted, then it is a limitation.  If 
> the use of the power is not restricted, then it is not a limitation and it 
> is worth no bonus.  If the modifer allows a power to do something that it 
> is not normally capable of doing it is an advantage. 
> 
> It is really that simple, so draw your own conclusions. 
 
	Rat, Rat, Rat.  What are we going to do with you.  What Rat has 
forgotten to mention is that in certain circumstances in the Hero rules, 
disadvantages *do* grant abilities not previously held by the powers. 
They just are more disadvantageous than they are advantageous.  Simple. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 09 Dec 1997 16:14:09 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
TRG> 	Rat, Rat, Rat.  What are we going to do with you.  What Rat has 
TRG> forgotten to mention is that in certain circumstances in the Hero 
TRG> rules, disadvantages *do* grant abilities not previously held by the 
TRG> powers.  They just are more disadvantageous than they are 
TRG> advantageous.  Simple. 
 
Show me one other than the (controversial) Linked (which I maintain is not 
an exception). 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 09 Dec 1997 16:17:37 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "DM" == Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> writes: 
 
DM> One advantage, though, is that it's quick and portable. If I want to 
DM> get into your car or your home, I can quickly jiggle a key in your 
DM> lock, and come back later with a perfect match. Very inconspicuous. 
 
Um, no. 
 
What this technique does is show you where to file; it does not show you 
how deep.  That requires several hits on the keyway.  It is one of the 
trickiest locksmithing techniques to master. 
 
It is not quick, and it is not inconspicuous. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 13:30:36 -0800 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
Organization: McAfee 
Subject: Re: regarding champion adventures breaking up the monotony 
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Nicole Webb wrote: 
>  
> Tokyo Mark wrote: 
> >   I've kept considering doing a villain game sometime, 
> > but I doubt my group would be into it.  Even when I run gray morality 
> > games right now, they play heros.:) 
> > 
 
<First suggestion snipped> 
 
>         Alternitively, if you want the whole group to wear black hats, 
> be a little insidious about character creation.  Tell your players not 
> to share information about their characters outside the game session, 
> then sit down with each player before they write up characters, and 
> give them some guidance.  During your individual guidance session, 
> encorage secrets and deception, and tell everybody that sombody is 
> working against the group.  Also suggest, to each player that the 
> group may be working against them. 
>     The distrust this will cause will go a long way toward creating a 
> villianous flavor.  Spice this up with some important questions about 
> modivation, and means of operation, and you ought to be able to 
> squeeze villians out of the most heroic players. 
 
The best success we've had with villain groups was a Danger 
International game set in the future.  The game was supposed to 
have a more Mission Impossible flavor, but the very first game the 
characters all turned out to be either amoral or just plain sick. 
We turned into a rather cruel mercenary group with some of the 
characters having our own hidden agendas. 
We never did have that final game where I'm sure half the team would 
of died from other team members actions. 
 
-Mark 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:47:56 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: The PC becoming a NPC ( a story)... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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I have a somewhat similar story involving a PC hero who became a villain - 
though he stayed a PC (occasionally.) 
 
The Wraith was one of the longest running characters in a campaign I ran 
intermittently for about 8 years. He was originally Stephen Royal, an 
extraterrestrial geologist - that is, a geologist who specialized in 
examining meteorites.  On one job, he came into contact with a strange 
crystal which turned out to be technology from an alien culture. His 
nervous system bonded with the crystal, giving him the abilities of 
desolidification and teleportation. 
 
The Wraith's teleportation was awesome - hundreds of miles to start with, 
and he soon worked his way up to planetwide teleportation. He couldn't do 
much in a fight, though. He spent most of his time getting innocent 
bystanders out of the way; the other heroes soon dubbed him "Captain Crowd 
Control." 
 
While well-intentioned, the Wraith tended to be a bit  arrogant. He 
generally acted like the group's leader, though they had no official 
organization, and was quick to criticize the other heroes and issue 
orders. This led to a fair amount of resentment against him. 
 
Over time, the Wraith's abilities improved as the alien crystal continued 
to metamorphose his body. He found he could teleport others a short 
distance, and could disrupt matter (an RKA). With these changes, though, 
his appearance became more like the crystalline aliens who had created 
the artifact which was the source of his powers, and even his thought 
patterns became more alien. The Wraith's strange behavior did little to 
ingratiate him with the rest of the Brotherhood of Justice (as the PC's 
group was now known.) 
 
The time came when the Wraith's player was moving out of town. The timing 
was right, though, as far as the game was concerned. The crystalline 
aliens (I forget their name) had taken notice of the Earth, and of the 
Wraith in particular. The device he had bonded with was quite important to 
them. One night, the Wraith had a powerful urge to go out for a walk. 
Strange lights were seen in the skies, and the Wraith was seen no more. 
 
 
Months past, and the heroes soon put the Wraith out of their minds, 
except for an occasional rude joke. Then came the alien invasion. While 
the crystalline aliens were generally freedom-loving and democratic, they 
valued life only in its silicon-based forms. When the Earth became a 
strategic position in their ongoing war with a more belligerent power, the 
crystalline beings thought nothing of occupying the heroes world. At the 
head of the occupying force, in full battle gear, was the Wraith. 
 
The player had come back to visit at a perfect time in my campaign. He and 
I had discussed the changes the Wraith had been through, and he decided 
that the Wraith would be fully sympathetic to the aliens' agenda. He did 
argue for some consideration of the human race, but when the battle lines 
were drawn, the Wraith stood with his new species. 
 
The reactions among Earth's heroes were varied. A few PC's had gotten 
along with the Wraith despite his arrogance, but even they doubted that 
they could appeal to his human side. One of the more ruthless members of 
the group responded to the Wraith's return with the remark "Oh good. Now 
we get to kill him!" 
 
The Wraith was last seen battling Mr. Earth in an alien fortress, shortly 
before its power plant blew up. This battle turned back the alien 
invasion, largely because of the noble self-sacrifice of Mr. Earth (Who 
needed redemption after killing his own son - but that's another story.) 
As for the Wraith: like any great villain, his body was never found... 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:53:01 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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Stainless Steel Rat writes: 
 
> Show me one other than the (controversial) Linked (which I maintain is not 
> an exception). 
 
Charges, particularly continuing charges.  Gives zero end and uncontrolled for 
free. 
Universal Foci.  Gives 'usable by others' for free. 
 
Historically, of course, there was 'always on', but that's been fixed in H4. 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:06:01 EST 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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<< Well, This is THE mailing list for YOUR (you and Steve) product. So you 
should 
have been here since day 1. Or in your case, the day you got your license. >> 
 
  We haven't published a 4th Ed. product since last August (Heroic Adventures 
Vol. 2), and sales of that were not too great. But I fully expect San Angelo 
to change that trend. But as I said earlier, I'm here now. bend my ear. ;) 
 
<< But that's all spilt milk. Now that you're here, I expect regular 
commentary. :) 
As long as it's not all buy my stuff spam. :) >> 
 
  Not all of it will be, no. ;) 
 
<< I'm not trying to flame you. Actually I've met you at a con and decided you 
were genuinly enthusiastic, or just a good con. :) >> 
 
  Just genuinly enthusiastic *at* cons (conventiontion, I mean). ;) 
 
<< However, the newsgroup is not product specific, AOL and Compuserv are 
limited 
forums, as is WebRPG and #herochat (DALnet IRC). This group is pretty large, 
dedicated, active, and open to anyone with email. >> 
 
  Understood. One quick question... is there a DIGEST version of this thing? 
My e-mail has doubled in the last day! <LOL> And that's saying something! 
 
<< Uh-oh. TSR meets WoTC meets Hero. My fifth Level Malkavelian Brick Punches 
your 6th level AC 6 Egoist for 5 successes? :) Or collectable Champions Card 
Game? :) >> 
 
  None of the above. I don't know about you guys, by feeling is that more 
Hero-sympathetic people in WotC is a *good* thing. Shadis has already run an 
article for AD&D. I would say that times are changing, and for the better. Who 
knows. Perhaps AD&D --> Fuzion --> Hero System conversions are coming down the 
pike? No secret info, just speculation. 
 
<< BTW, who in their right mind would hire Steve P. to sell / market anything? 
Considering Hero's great success in the market. :) >> 
 
  That's a pretty cheap shot. For one thing, ICE was in charge of advertising 
and marketing the Hero products, not Hero. I guess you could say the same 
thing about us, then. 
 
<< If it's anything like Astro City you can count me in. >> 
 
  Funny. I get that reaction a lot. I can tell you that Kurt Busiek has seen 
the manuscript and likes it. We talked because I had heard "Geez, this is like 
Astro City. It's great" a lot from fans. We wanted to avoid any potential 
legal problems with Kurt and Homage Comics so we contacted him. We made a few 
minror changes to satisfy his concerns, and everyone is happy. In fact, he's 
even given us a quote to use. San Angelo is certainly *not* an "Astro City 
RPG," but probably as close as you will ever come to one. 
 
<< Hey no problem, I can't stand all that dark junk myself. >> 
 
  Different strokes for different folks. But we'll certainly be producing some 
DC-style products for the San Angelo line, probably after the release of Dark 
Champions 2nd Edition (coming from us, probably next year). 
 
<< So does that mean they will all be lower power level than the BBB 
characters? 
Since while theBBB characters are all 250 points, they have no skills, perks, 
or 
dare I say... depth. Adding those things in will take away from other things 
unless the points are raised. >> 
 
  The sample PCs are in the book for just that... they are samples. New 
players (hint, hint) can simply pick one of them from the book and play. Of 
course, the villains and other NPCs we present in the setting won't be 
constrained to the 250 point max. As I said, we're going for depth, and that 
means we'll need more points for some of them. 
 
  Another thing to consider, too, is that not all of our NPCs will be full- 
blown supers. Some will be Low-Powered Metahumans (LPMs), to use a phrase from 
Corporations. 
 
<< Uh-Oh. See my above comments about WoTC/TSR. Can we add Fuzion into 
thatequation as well? :) >> 
 
  Absolutely not. We will be posted Fuzion stats for characters to our web 
site, but the 4th Ed. books will remain just that -- 4th Ed. books. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:06:03 EST 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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<< Welcome Mark!  It's about darn time you got on this mailing list. :)>> 
 
  I just found the key. It seems someone sent it to the wrong address. ;) 
 
  Btw, folks, in case Michelle hasn't told oyu, she's doing some work for us 
in the production department. Expect to see her name popping up in future 
books of ours. ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:06:05 EST 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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<< How's it going buddy?  Hope your wife is doing well! >> 
 
  Much better, thanks (check out our web page for deatils and updates). 
 
<< I personally am looking forward to seeing "San Angelo: City of Heroes" I 
down loaded the promo, I had some trouble with the formating, but as for 
content it read really well, and seemed to be headed in the right direction. 
>> 
 
  Thank you. Pat (the author) will appreciate the comments. In fact, I *may* 
be able to get him on this list, too. 
 
<< What type of characters will be in the book? Will we be bale to get 
electronic versions from the web site?  Fusion versions? Heromaker? >> 
 
  Good ones? :D  We'll have a variety of characters in the line. As for stats, 
you can expect to see Fuzion stats for the characters as well as Character 
Creator and HeroMaker stats, I would suspect. 
 
<< Do you want to trade an ad in Herozine for a Review copy? >> 
 
  E-mail me re: this. 
 
<< So many questions so little time.>> 
 
  Well, get to it, man! ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:06:07 EST 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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<< Out of curiosity how much of the Champs stuff are you planning to do in San 
Angelo. I remember seeing some blurbs for some other Champs books that looked 
pretty interesting (the one about the cops/the law, and the time travel 
adventures one). >> 
 
  We're planning a whole new campaign series. We have a lot of stuff planned, 
including an Enemies book, a mystic sourcebook, an organizations book, a MAP 
book, and more. 
 
  Law & Order will be a "stand-alone" Hero System genre book (like UMA or 
Fantasy Hero), with *lots* of neat cop stuff for Hero System games. As soon as 
I get the opportunity, I'm going to finish it. ::sigh:: It's just that our 
plate is so full right now... 
 
  The time travel book you mentioned is probably Sands of Time, by Phil 
Masters. That's in the final editing phase and will be released in the San 
Angelo line next Spring! 
 
<< I took a quick look at the download. I didn't see anything to make me gag 
right off. >> 
 
  I guess that's a good thing. 
 
<< Hope the quality is as good as the two Heroic Adventures. >> 
 
  Actually, no. It's going to be much, much better quality. 
 
<< I've used a good number of those already. The bad guy in the Knightsabers 
plot (the guy running the experiments) has joined Genocide here. 8). >> 
 
  Glad to hear it! I'm sure Greg will appreciate knowing his creations are 
being put to use. ;)  I really liked "Virtual Ice" in HA1. Very cool concept, 
IMO. And the toilet illo... who else but GRG could get away with an illo of a 
hero drinking from a toilet! <LOL> (You have to read the adventure to 
understand what's really going on). 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:35:43 -0800 
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On Monday, December 08, 1997 9:58 PM, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>  And yes, there are plans to reprint the Champions core book when 
current 
>copies run out. But we currently have a good number of copies of the 
Champions 
>Deluxe hardback (w/o software) that it probably won't be until late 
next year 
>or early '99 that you'd see a new Champions (did I say 5th Ed.?) 
book. 
 
 
Good question. Did you say 5th Ed.? If so, listen to this group 
frequently, and take lots of notes. 
 
Filksinger 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 16:37:19 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
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At 11:32 PM 12/9/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>I have just acquired a copy of Ninja Hero, and I was wondering what the 
>major differences between it and TUMA are.  Mostly, is TUMA worth getting 
>if I have NH?  (I suspect it is.)  How much of a rewrite am I going to have 
>to do to the characters that I am rewriting now? 
 
No rewrites are necessary, really -- the TUMA is a superset of Ninja HERO, 
not a real revision.  The most significant differences are (off the top of 
my head): 
        1) There's now a "Flash" element available to do poke-in-the-eye  
        or earboxing maneuvers.  Costs the same as NND; a good improvement 
        (I feel icky making my players spend points for things that 
        Joe Bloe can do). 
 
        2) There's now a "Disable" element available which doesn't cost 
        anything, and improves your chances of impairing or disabling  
        the target.  It struck me as possibly being broken, since the 
        supposed "balancing limits" didn't seem all that limiting (for 
        example, it's required to be aimed at a specific hit location, 
        but it doesn't take any OCV penatly for a called shot). 
 
        3) There are rules for creating ranged martial arts styles 
        (not "thunderpunching", but rather things like Zen archery). 
        Struck me as a rather kneejerk set-up -- to the best of my 
        knowledge, even the most "martial-arty" of ranged weapon  
        training (aforementioned archery) simply does not break up  
        neatly into maneuvers like hand-to-hand fighting styles, so 
        this just doesn't feel right. I'd probably stick with Combat 
        Levels and called shots. 
 
        4) More martial arts styles, maneuvers, and weapons -- it 
        seems like a strong intent was made to process all other 
        RPGs' martial arts supplements and make sure nothing was 
        missing.  Some of these new martial arts are so thinly  
        described, there's little point in including them; on the 
        other hand, the section on Pentjak Silat is so broad as to  
        make it a competitor in importance for Kung Fu. 
 
        5) There is LOTS and LOTS of padding. (Does anyone else feel  
        like using Dim Mak on S.L. just to keep him from making  
        *another* fictional style where every d*** maneuver is "The 
        {adjective}{move} of {Name}"?) 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 16:37:25 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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At 12:59 AM 12/10/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>	Rat's comments should be seen as exactly that, his.  He has his 
>own (very strong) predjudices.  One of them is a dislike for Long and 
>everything he writes, no matter how useful and good.  Take with a (large) 
>grain of salt. 
 
And by the same token, can I dismiss your opinions just by "warning" 
everyone that you have some very strong prejudices FOR Mr. Long?  *Anyone's* 
opinions should be seen as "exactly that".  Nobody on this list is putting a 
gun to the readers' head and trying to force a style of play. 
 
Rat happens to be one of the more intelligent people on the list -- I end up 
on the opposite side of the fence from him on almost all the big debates 
here, but I'd still rather listen to him disagreeing with me than many 
people taking my side. 
 
If you disagree with him, that's fine -- just present your own opinions. and 
maybe all of us here can learn something from them.  But it's downright 
asinine and unnecessarily inflammatory to make a big production number out 
of letting everyone know what a dangerous influence he apparently is, 
pronouncing in great authoritarian tones how the poor fool managed to escape 
his chains again and post some madness before being caught and returned to 
his cell. :/ 
 
>	By the same token, of course, Rat means to say that all Martial 
>maneuvers are just plain stupid.  Buy combat skill levels and just be 
>happy. 
 
Or, he could just mean that unlike hand-to-hand combat, real-life ranged 
weapon "martial arts" simply do NOT break down into a maneuver-by-maneuver 
basis, and are therefore better represented by a single-skill approach such 
as combat levels. 
 
>> As for content... TUMA adds a bunch of unnecessary maneuvers -- they 
>> duplicate the effects of existing maneuvers combined with a few combat 
>> skill levels. 
> 
> 	 That's what all maneuvers are anyway.  There is just a large 
>pre-made list to allow for different flavor. 
 
Okay, this I agree with -- expanding the maneuver list is not a problem. 
What I did have a problem with is S.L. telling his readers not to *design* 
martial arts with maneuvers (such as Fast Strike and Martial Strike) that 
can be made to match each other with a couple combat levels, and further 
points out that this "problem" most often shows up when trying to model 
real-life combat styles. (Yeah, God forbid we should do something to match 
real life when it impedes point efficiency.) 
 
>> Many of Long's power writeups range from questionable to outright 
>> broken. 
> 
>	Add the unspoken, "becuase that is not how I might do that power" 
>that must be added to all of Rat's interpretations of rules.  Actually, 
>they are built well and take some different approaches to usually obscure 
>power construction areas. 
 
AFAIK, Rat would not do that power because Rat is a HERO fundamentalist, 
i.e. he has actually read the rulebook and made an attempt to comprehend it. 
Long, it too often seems, has not.  In this case, it didn't seem like much 
of a problem to me -- since the bulk of the UMA is cribbed from Ninja HERO, 
you won't find too much out of line.  (For the REALLY munchkinoid 
constructions, one should check out -The Ultimate Mentalist- -- worth the 
money for the laugh value alone). 
 
P.S. Honest question, Tim -- this is not meant as a jibe or anything, I'm 
sincerely curious.  Did you ever see a rules interpretation/alteration 
printed that you DIDN'T approve of? 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:39:14 -0800 
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On Monday, December 08, 1997 10:04 PM, Rick Holding wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> That last part is not quite correct.  The flash attack is linked to 
the 
>energy blast.  For the flash to operate, the energy blast must be 
fired.  But if 
>you fire the energy blast, you do not have to activate the flash. 
The energy 
>blast is not limited.  The flash attack is. 
> 
 
 
There is _NO_ official ruling on this point. Officially, you can do it 
either way, and both are acceptable- it is strictly GM ruling. It 
shouldn't be, but it is. 
 
If that is the position you want to take, fine, but please don't claim 
yours is the "correct" way. There is no "correct" way. 
 
And that _is_ official. 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 09 Dec 1997 17:48:09 -0500 
Lines: 44 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes: 
 
AJ> Charges, particularly continuing charges.  Gives zero end and 
AJ> uncontrolled for free. 
 
Point.  And I can show you exactly where Charges specifically states that 
it gives you these things for "free".  Just as an aside, continuous and 
uncontrolled on charges is not free: you have to pay for Continuous if the 
power is not already constant, and the uncontrolled aspect "costs" a lesser 
bonus.  Furthermore, in the 4th edition it quickly becomes more "efficient" 
to use Zero END instead of charges; a fluke from the Reduced/Zero END cost 
structure change. 
 
If a skill, talent, power or power modifier does not specifically state 
that it has a particular mechanical effect, it does not do it.  Two 
examples: the aforementioned Charges specifically giving "Zero END Cost" 
for free, and Dispell specifically stating that one may abort to use it. 
 
Nowhere does "Linked" state that it provides any specific advantages to 
powers. 
 
AJ> Universal Foci.  Gives 'usable by others' for free. 
 
Almost... it ties back to having to pay for anything that you frequently 
use.  If you frequently loan your Focused powers out to your allies, those 
to whom you loan should purchase the powers for themselves. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:48:54 -0800 
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On Monday, December 08, 1997 11:13 PM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
<snip> 
> 
> Actually, both attacks *are* limited, you are only allowed the 
>disad on the one, however, for balance reasons.  That's part of the 
>disadvantage, you get points for the smaller, but both are affected. 
> 
 
Again, there is no official ruling. You are both right. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:51:07 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << But that's all spilt milk. Now that you're here, I expect regular 
> commentary. :) 
> As long as it's not all buy my stuff spam. :) >> 
>  
>   Not all of it will be, no. ;) 
 
At least tell us why it's stuff we have to buy.  And be honest! 
 
> << However, the newsgroup is not product specific, AOL and Compuserv are 
> limited 
> forums, as is WebRPG and #herochat (DALnet IRC). This group is pretty large, 
> dedicated, active, and open to anyone with email. >> 
>  
>   Understood. One quick question... is there a DIGEST version of this thing? 
> My e-mail has doubled in the last day! <LOL> And that's saying something! 
 
Get used to that.   
  
> << Uh-oh. TSR meets WoTC meets Hero. My fifth Level Malkavelian Brick Punches 
> your 6th level AC 6 Egoist for 5 successes? :) Or collectable Champions Card 
> Game? :) >> 
>  
>   None of the above. I don't know about you guys, by feeling is that more 
> Hero-sympathetic people in WotC is a *good* thing. Shadis has already run an 
> article for AD&D. I would say that times are changing, and for the better. Who 
> knows. Perhaps AD&D --> Fuzion --> Hero System conversions are coming down the 
> pike? No secret info, just speculation. 
 
With the aquisition of TSR, WOTC is a financial monster.  Still doesn't 
mean I have to buy their cards or consider Shadis to be the last word on 
gaming.  OTOH, good, non-biased exposure for the best universal system on 
the market is cool by me. 
 
> << BTW, who in their right mind would hire Steve P. to sell / market anything? 
> Considering Hero's great success in the market. :) >> 
>  
>   That's a pretty cheap shot. For one thing, ICE was in charge of advertising 
> and marketing the Hero products, not Hero. I guess you could say the same 
> thing about us, then. 
 
What I don't like is Steve P's constant waffling on some subjects, as well 
as the way he introduced Fuzion to the HML. 
 
> << Uh-Oh. See my above comments about WoTC/TSR. Can we add Fuzion into 
> thatequation as well? :) >> 
>  
>   Absolutely not. We will be posted Fuzion stats for characters to our web 
> site, but the 4th Ed. books will remain just that -- 4th Ed. books. 
 
Cool by me.  Oh, and waht was that about a '5th edition'? 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:55:06 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 60 
 
 
> TRG> 	Rat, Rat, Rat.  What are we going to do with you.  What Rat has 
> TRG> forgotten to mention is that in certain circumstances in the Hero 
> TRG> rules, disadvantages *do* grant abilities not previously held by the 
> TRG> powers.  They just are more disadvantageous than they are 
> TRG> advantageous.  Simple. 
> 
> Show me one other than the (controversial) Linked (which I maintain is not 
> an exception). 
 
 
	We've been through this before.  Charges provides 0 END and 
Universal Focus provides UBO. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:59:46 -0800 
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On Tuesday, December 09, 1997 7:16 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
<snip> 
>   Personally, I'm in the camp that says two Linked Powers must 
always be 
>used together.  If you could the larger one separately (goes my 
logic), 
>then how would one Limit the Powers so that you couldn't?  You can't 
buy 
>Linked on the larger Power (it says so right there under Linked). 
 
I have a .pdf file on my machine somewhere that is supposed to be a 
Champions cheat sheet. It includes all the advantages and 
disadvantages in the BBB, and under Linked it gives _both_ versions. 
For a -1/4, only the smaller power is limited, and for a -1/2, both 
are. 
 
Frankly, something like that may be the best solution. Certainly, 
without it you have one of two things undoable. With this idea, you 
can do both. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:06:00 -0800 
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On Tuesday, December 09, 1997 7:08 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>> What about the <possible urban myth> piece of straw driven through 
walls 
>>during a cyclone (hurricane for you northern types) with no damage. 
Maybe 
>its a 
>>little none effect of really high speeds giving immense amounts of 
extra PD. 
> 
>   That's fine for a piece of straw going through a wall or (in the 
>rendition I've heard) sheet of regular paper chopping down a tree. 
The 
>front end of a car is somewhat blunter than that. 
 
 
The straw is correct, the paper isn't. However, the hurricane is 
incorrect, it is a tornado. Hurricanes don't have the focused power 
needed. 
 
However, the straw isn't made stronger. Take a good, stiff piece of 
straw. Carefully slam it into the side of a tree _straight_ in. There 
is a small but distinct possibility that it will stick. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:18:57 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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Stainless Steel Rat writes: 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> >>>>> "AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes: 
>  
> AJ> Charges, particularly continuing charges.  Gives zero end and 
> AJ> uncontrolled for free. 
>  
> Point.  And I can show you exactly where Charges specifically states that 
> it gives you these things for "free".  Just as an aside, continuous and 
> uncontrolled on charges is not free: you have to pay for Continuous if the 
> power is not already constant, and the uncontrolled aspect "costs" a lesser 
> bonus.  Furthermore, in the 4th edition it quickly becomes more "efficient" 
> to use Zero END instead of charges; a fluke from the Reduced/Zero END cost 
> structure change. 
 
Hm..clearly you haven't had such munchkin stunts as '1 recoverable 1-minute 
continuing charge of force-field' (or 4 clips instead of recoverable); net -1/2 
limitation, and _so_ much more useful than a standard force field most of the 
time.  In any case, the point wasn't that Charges was vague (it isn't), its 
that it demonstrates that disadvantages _can_ give advantages. 
>  
> If a skill, talent, power or power modifier does not specifically state 
> that it has a particular mechanical effect, it does not do it.  Two 
> examples: the aforementioned Charges specifically giving "Zero END Cost" 
> for free, and Dispell specifically stating that one may abort to use it. 
 
Hm...does it say anything about abort?  I thought all it said was that you 
could use it against an incoming attack. 
>  
> Nowhere does "Linked" state that it provides any specific advantages to 
> powers. 
 
So?  Actually, I believe it does have the word 'allows' in it, but I'd need to 
check the text to be sure. 
>  
> AJ> Universal Foci.  Gives 'usable by others' for free. 
>  
> Almost... it ties back to having to pay for anything that you frequently 
> use.  If you frequently loan your Focused powers out to your allies, those 
> to whom you loan should purchase the powers for themselves. 
 
If I had a player frequently 'loaning out' powers with UBO I'd be tempted to 
make the other players purchase some ability (or just thwack the offending 
player).  Even if you only lend out your pistol once in a hundred sessions, 
that's once more than you can lend out your non-focused energy blast, and 
therefore your focus clearly has an advantage the energy blast does not have. 
 
 
X-Originating-IP: [206.88.2.1] 
From: "Todd Hanson" <badtodd@hotmail.com> 
Subject: Re: The Tick 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 17:48:38 CST 
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Jerry Said: 
 
>>"It's Thrakazog!" 
>>"Box of frogs?" 
>> 
>"Four yacks and a dog?" 
>"Sapsucker frog?" 
>"Susan?" 
 
Well, NOW you're just doing it on purpose.  
 
 
And, to bring this back to Champs - this past weekend I got a chance to  
game with some old friends.  One of the players always tries to sneak a  
'silly' character into the game - no matter how serious the genre is.   
After having his latest masterpiece ('Cow Man') rejected by 3 different  
game masters, he finally convinced one GM to run a 'Tick style' game.  I  
wouldn't want to do this on a regular basis, but for a one time thing,  
it was a hell of alot of fun. 
 
The cast: 
 
Cow Man - strange visitor from another pasture!  Master of the  
          Moooooove Through, watched by Farmer Joe, suffered from 
          'herd mentality'. 
 
Frog Man - (and his side kick Tadpole).  Batman wanna-be in his  
          fabulous frog suit.  Master of tongue-fu (he had a 5" 
          stretching tongue), sponsored by Budweiser - had his  
          own VPP of 'beer powers' (shake up a can of beer and spray 
          it in the villian's face for a flash, fashioned empty 
          cans into ice skates, etc).  Spent the rest of the night 
          pouting when the GM wouldn't let him restore his drained 
          dex by drinking a 'refreshing can of beer'. 
Capt Flatulance - had a variety of 'stink cloud' NND's (defense: no 
          breathing, or stinking worse than the fart), had a 'flame 
          jet' attack that required gestures and a bic lighter.  
          required a high fiber diet and took damage from 'Beano'. 
          always accompanied his powers with the appropriate sound 
          effects (you would have thought we were 11 years old) 
Spider-Guy - a 'Tick World' version of Spiderman (the player didnt  
          seem real into this style of game).  Had alot of useless 
          web powers and a danger sense that only warned him of  
          non-dangerous things. 
 
 
There were a variety of goofy villians (The Bleeding Heart, some goofy   
Magic playing nerd, a spinning top.. ) and alot of senseless combat and  
silly roleplaying that ultimately lead us to the arch-villian who was  
out to control the world... Barney!  (I love you.. you serve me.. ) 
 
 
Todd 
 
______________________________________________________ 
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 18:50:18 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 02:59 PM 12/9/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>On Tuesday, December 09, 1997 7:16 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
><snip> 
>>   Personally, I'm in the camp that says two Linked Powers must 
>always be 
>>used together.  If you could the larger one separately (goes my 
>logic), 
>>then how would one Limit the Powers so that you couldn't?  You can't 
>buy 
>>Linked on the larger Power (it says so right there under Linked). 
> 
>I have a .pdf file on my machine somewhere that is supposed to be a 
>Champions cheat sheet. It includes all the advantages and 
>disadvantages in the BBB, and under Linked it gives _both_ versions. 
>For a -1/4, only the smaller power is limited, and for a -1/2, both 
>are. 
> 
>Frankly, something like that may be the best solution. Certainly, 
>without it you have one of two things undoable. With this idea, you 
>can do both. 
> 
Wow.  Cool, that's what I came up with, too.  A -1/4 "Can only be used with 
X" Limitation.  I'm with Bob on the interpretation he gave...  I (of 
course) can't say it's officially correct, but that's what I got from 
reading it.  Also, I got that impression from GURPS Supers, too, and I 
assume they lifted Linked from Hero. 
 
- Jerry 
 
 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 18:56:47 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 03:18 PM 12/9/97 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote: 
>Stainless Steel Rat writes: 
>> >>>>> "AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes: 
>>  
>> AJ> Charges, particularly continuing charges.  Gives zero end and 
>> AJ> uncontrolled for free. 
>>  
>> Point.  And I can show you exactly where Charges specifically states that 
>> it gives you these things for "free".  Just as an aside, continuous and 
>> uncontrolled on charges is not free: you have to pay for Continuous if the 
>> power is not already constant, and the uncontrolled aspect "costs" a lesser 
>> bonus.  Furthermore, in the 4th edition it quickly becomes more "efficient" 
>> to use Zero END instead of charges; a fluke from the Reduced/Zero END cost 
>> structure change. 
> 
>Hm..clearly you haven't had such munchkin stunts as '1 recoverable 1-minute 
>continuing charge of force-field' (or 4 clips instead of recoverable); net 
-1/2 
>limitation, and _so_ much more useful than a standard force field most of the 
>time.  In any case, the point wasn't that Charges was vague (it isn't), its 
>that it demonstrates that disadvantages _can_ give advantages. 
>  
So, this means the Force Field won't go down unless it runs out of time, 
right?  So, he's bleeding to death (-BODY) and his teammates can't use 
Paramedic on him?  Sounds like a Limitation to me... 
But this might just go back to looking carefully at the players' 
characters' abilities. 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 19:01:12 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 76 
 
At 03:30 PM 12/9/97 +0000, Rook wrote: 
>> > 	This whole discussion is MOOT. 
>> > 
>> > I can simply use "limited" to design a custom version of linked that 
works 
>> > however I desire for the given character at hand. 
>>  
>> 	Hmmm.  Actually, I believe that using one limitation to simulate 
>> another would be verboten in Hero terms. 
> 
>	'verboten'? 
Strictly forbidden.  Yeah, I had to look it up to be sure, too, but I was 
right. 
 
>Well, I can use limited to design any limitation I desire. So I could just 
>design a limitation that reads: 
>	"Power X can only be used when power Y is in use", then assign that 
>limitation to power X. 
> 
>	Or for the other side of the camp, I make a limitation that says: 
> 
>	"Powers X and Y can only be used in combination". 
> 
>Nothing illegal there. The only argument now is what are they worth? 
>-1/4, -1/2, or -3/4. 
>	And that's a GM call. Personally, in my games the first one 
>would be a -1/2 on power X. The second would be a -1/2 on the less 
>expensive of the two powers. 
> 
In which case, I (if in your games) would take the first on both Powers, 
since I save more points, and it does the same as the second.  Exactly the 
same. 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 19:21:07 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: The Tick 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Todd wrote: 
>Jerry Said: 
> 
>>>"It's Thrakazog!" 
>>>"Box of frogs?" 
>>> 
>>"Four yacks and a dog?" 
>>"Sapsucker frog?" 
>>"Susan?" 
> 
>Well, NOW you're just doing it on purpose.  
> 
Thank you, Tick.  Or should I say... Tock?  Tack?  Tuck? 
 
I had faith someone would get that. 
 
<wonderful Tick game stuff deleted for space constraints> 
The last campaign I started up was over the summer, for when I wasn't at 
school.  It wasn't until after I had already decided what I wanted to do 
did some of the players ask about a "Tick" style game...  I said no, but it 
still had comical aspects. 
 
The Lamp - Light-based hero who has the Psych Lim: *under*confidence, and 
Afraid of the Dark.  He's a practical joker, so we get a lot of weird light 
based Images... 
 
Ice Cream Girl - I had to try hard to get her to change her appearance from 
an Uncle Creamy clone into just a babe.  But the name stuck, because she 
liked it. 
 
The Amp - my fault, really.  I came up with him while on my computer at 
3am.  He's the Lamp's archvillain, and we had a good moment when Lamp and 
Sentinel (a too serious character *and* player) met The Amp (don't leave 
off the "The").  Sentinel was wounded and the Lamp grabbed him and ran.  As 
they left, The Amp called after them, "I'll get you Lamp, and your 
sidekick, too!" 
 
Still gets a laugh out of everyone. 
 
- Jerry 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 16:35:44 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 05:06 PM 12/9/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< I took a quick look at the download. I didn't see anything to make me gag 
>right off. >> 
> 
>  I guess that's a good thing. 
 
   Something just occurred to me:  Maybe you could sneak that quote into 
some of your advertising, and see who notices. 
   Naah. 
 
><< Hope the quality is as good as the two Heroic Adventures. >> 
> 
>  Actually, no. It's going to be much, much better quality. 
> 
><< I've used a good number of those already. The bad guy in the Knightsabers 
>plot (the guy running the experiments) has joined Genocide here. 8). >> 
> 
>  Glad to hear it! I'm sure Greg will appreciate knowing his creations are 
>being put to use. ;)  I really liked "Virtual Ice" in HA1. Very cool concept, 
>IMO. And the toilet illo... who else but GRG could get away with an illo of a 
>hero drinking from a toilet! <LOL> (You have to read the adventure to 
>understand what's really going on). 
 
   Just so you know what kind of variety you have here, I'm planning on 
using the San Angelo setting as a parallel universe in my own campaign, 
which is set in the Champions Universe.  "Virtual Ice" looks like a good 
scenario to run my PCs through as a second adventure; I'm just scoping out 
a good hook scenario to introduce the dimension. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 16:39:19 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 02:39 PM 12/9/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>There is _NO_ official ruling on this point. Officially, you can do it 
>either way, and both are acceptable- it is strictly GM ruling. It 
>shouldn't be, but it is. 
 
   Actually, there is an official ruling, and that is just what you said: 
do it either way, until Steve P. makes up his mind. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 17:23:50 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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-- Robert A. West wrote: 
><<snip>> 
> IMHO, no, on multiple grounds.  First, I don't see why a person minus an 
> arm should be any easier to kill than a normal person.  If you blow off 
> my arm, I will likely go into shock and die, but if I survive, the 
> overall system integrity that keeps me alive will be fairly unimpaired. 
> Second, on game balance grounds, should a character lose a limb, I would 
> not want to impose the double penalty of losing BODY points as well. 
> Third, all the hit location mechanisms (BODYx, Impairing, Disabling) 
> on pp. 163-5 are based on the affected area's taking a portion of the 
> character's *total* BODY, not of an assigned fraction as in Runequest and 
> similar systems.  IMHO, there is an attempt being made to distinguish 
> between "sectional" BODY and "systemic" BODY.  Fourth, although disabling 
> wounds to the chest and head list permanent CHAR losses as an effect, 
> none are listed for limbs. 
 
	Valid points, all of them.  But under the limb section of the disabling  
write up, it does mention lose of affected limbs.  GM's discretion.  Just as it  
could be GM's discretion as to the other game effects of the lose of the limb. 
>  
> Thus, I would hold that a Drain BODY cannot be used for this purpose. 
> Drain Movement might have an SFX of injuring a leg, but severing the 
> limb is not generally a reasonable special effect, unless regrowing limbs 
> is an everyman power. 
 
	Why not?  In a world where powers are defined by special effects, why  
can't a body drain be represented by eventual lose of limbs?  What about a  
vorpal blade?  It does normal damage and on an 8- activation (5-, whatever) the  
target suffers 1-2D6 body drain, recovery time shifted into the far future. 
 
>  
> > > Since humans do not, in most campaigns, routinely regrow limbs . . . 
> > 
> >         Humans do not, in most campaigns, regernerate limbs because nobody 
> > looses them!  Okay, broad statement, I'll admit.  But I certainly have not 
> > seen anybody lose a limb in the 10+ years that I have been playing. 
>  
> You have never seen an amputee as an NPC?  Never seen a PC take amputee 
> as a Physical Limitation?  Never had a touching scene visiting a victim 
> of the MultiBomber who lost a hand, eye or fingers? 
 
	Perhaps the group I am with don't go into that detail.  And yes, some of  
us have had DNPC's who have missing limbs.  That was not what I was trying to  
talk about. 
 
> Do these people 
> regrow their limbs from ordinary healing?  Assuming that the same healing 
> rules apply, in principle, to NPCs as to PCs, I think that my statement 
> is fair and true. 
 
	Granted, normal people do not regrow limbs.  But take Wolverine as an  
example.  He has regeneration (and scads of it).  Before he got reinforced  
bones, he lost plenty of body mass which regen replaced.  NORMAL people don't  
have regeneration!!  They have normal healing. 
>  
> As for my point about Transform being the "only way under standard rules" 
> to represent limb loss, I should have clarified that statement as 
> "standard Superhero rules," since I believe that Disabling is an option 
> not normally recommended for Superhero campaigns, except as a way to get 
> the agents out of the way faster. 
 
	Again, granted.  The impairing and disabling rules are recommended for  
heroes, not supers.  But this does not mean it can't be used.  Gestures and  
Incantations are also recommended for heroes.  But it doesn't stop people taking  
them as disads. 
 
	On a side issue, (and please don't think this is a shot at you), many  
people on this list seem to prefer the use of transform as a catch-all power.   
Has this been caused by some discussion or convention from earlier in Champions?  
 It seems to me that when some other power can have an effect, the response is  
"You can't do that because of <xxx>.  You should use transform instead."  Is  
there something I am missing about transform in relation to all other powers? 
 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 17:32:08 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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-- Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    I encourage this line of conversation.  Please -- virtually every post 
> here is adding something to TUSV! 
>    Say, does anyone know offhand what the standard locations are for the 
> VIN?  I know there's one on the dashboard, and I think there's one on the 
> engine block... 
 
	Australian vehicles tend to have a compliance plate stuck to the front  
of the fire wall in the engine bay.  It contains date of manufacturer, engine  
number, body number, and a couple of other stats. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 17:41:34 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Hanging Onto the Edge 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Bob Greenwade wrote: 
<<snipped>> 
>    You are certainly correct here.  The minimum of DEF+BODY of the 
> building, the DEF+BODY of the vehicle, and 320d6 (or, by the Champions II 
> table, 23d6).  My mistake. 
 
	What about the <possible urban myth> piece of straw driven through walls  
during a cyclone (hurricane for you northern types) with no damage.  Maybe its a  
little none effect of really high speeds giving immense amounts of extra PD. 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 17:49:05 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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-- Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
<<snipped>> 
>         Well, actually it is done with only *one* attack action.  However, 
> notice that for the same number of Active Points, you could do either an 
> 18d6 EB or a 9d6 flash, either one of which is more effective than the 
> above.  Remember that upper damage classes are usually more effective than 
> the lower ones as defenses only go so high.  (With real points, the above 
> work out to a 16d6 eb or an 8d6 Flash, still much more effective.) 
> Linked is a disad because you are permenantly linking two powers -- 
> niether can be used alone and you lose overall effectiveness of the 
> powers. 
 
	That last part is not quite correct.  The flash attack is linked to the  
energy blast.  For the flash to operate, the energy blast must be fired.  But if  
you fire the energy blast, you do not have to activate the flash.  The energy  
blast is not limited.  The flash attack is. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:51:05 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: The Tick 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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>Frog Man - (and his side kick Tadpole).  Batman wanna-be in his  
>          fabulous frog suit.  Master of tongue-fu (he had a 5" 
>          stretching tongue),  
 
I'll bet he was popular with the girls...*^_^* 
 
One idea I've toyed with is Rubber-Band Man. His primary powers would 
involve: Hand Attack with Gestures (stretch one arm with the other, then let 
go, <fwap!>), Extra Superleap with Concentration and Extra Time (Grab 
lamppost, step backwards until your arms are really stretched, and let go 
<fwoing!>), plenty of extra STR for grabbing (only), and some Stretching 
that was No Concious Control (i.e. he couldn't stretch to reach that 
flagpole, but if he was hanging from the flagpole with somebody hanging on 
to his legs, he'd stretch until he reached his limit or touched the ground). 
Imagine someone with a very rubbery body but the inability to just 'extend' 
at will. Maybe some shapeshifting to compact himself into tight spaces, too 
(extra time, etc.). 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Reply-To: <903047@ican.net> 
From: "dflacks" <dflacks@ican.net> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:07:26 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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>   Greetings, list lurkers and readers. I wanted to introduce myself 
briefly. I 
> am Mark Arsenault, head of Gold Rush Games. As we're getting geared up to 
> release San Angelo: City of Heroes (the first paper supplement for 
Champions 
> 4th Ed in a loooong time) I thought I would get on this list and get some 
> feedback from you folks. 
>  
>   Specifically, I am wondering if anyone here downloaded the SA:CoH 
preview 
> chapters. If so, are there any comments? Or any questions of me regarding 
this 
> new product line? 
>  
>   Mark @ GRG 
 
Hello there Mark. 
 
I downloaded SA:CoH and I liked it.  I would, of course, have to change a 
few things to make it fit my campaigns based up here in the great frozen 
north (Canada).  But then very few GMs ever use a 'Vanilla' supplement 
straight out of the box.  From what I read it looks like a well designed 
and integrated whole, with enough flexability to let me modify it to fit 
how I want my champaign to work. 
 
I hope it will be available for electronic mail ordering, because I found 
that a lot of stuff never makes it up here.  For example, I had never even 
heard of Heromaker software untill I got on the internet. 
 
I have the goldrush games webpage on my netminder list, so I will be 
checking out anything new as it happens. 
 
BTW,  Sorry to read about Tyson.  That was a terrible thing to happen. 
 
dflacks@ican.net 
 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 18:15:25 -0800 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
Organization: McAfee 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>  
> At 03:30 PM 12/9/97 +0000, Rook wrote: 
> >>      Hmmm.  Actually, I believe that using one limitation to 
> >>      simulate another would be verboten in Hero terms. 
> > 
> >       'verboten'? 
> Strictly forbidden.  Yeah, I had to look it up to be sure, too, but 
> I was right. 
 
Didn't anybody watch Hogan's Heroes? 
 
-Mark 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 21:24:12 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Rook wrote: 
>> >Well, I can use limited to design any limitation I desire. So I could just 
>> >design a limitation that reads: 
>> >	"Power X can only be used when power Y is in use", then assign that 
>> >limitation to power X. 
>> > 
>> >	Or for the other side of the camp, I make a limitation that says: 
>> > 
>> >	"Powers X and Y can only be used in combination". 
>> > 
>> >Nothing illegal there. The only argument now is what are they worth? 
>> >-1/4, -1/2, or -3/4. 
>> >	And that's a GM call. Personally, in my games the first one 
>> >would be a -1/2 on power X. The second would be a -1/2 on the less 
>> >expensive of the two powers. 
>> > 
>> In which case, I (if in your games) would take the first on both Powers, 
>> since I save more points, and it does the same as the second.  Exactly the 
>> same. 
>>  
>	In which case as a GM I would simply remove it from the larger power. 
>Or rule that since X has to be on to use Y, and Y has to be on to use X, you 
>can't use either since neither can ever come on... 
>	Chicken or the Egg after all. 
> 
Yeah, that's what I was trying to point out.  Of course, I probably 
should've just came out and said it...  : ) 
 
>HOWEVER. I do like what I'm hearing here from others about the first one 
>being only a -1/4 lim. I'll have to think about why I listed it as a -1/2. 
> 
I do it with the -1/4.  But I (probably*) wouldn't let a player take it on 
two Powers.  That's what Linked is for.   
 
*I might do it, it's never come up, so I don't know.  Thoughts? 
 
- Jerry 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:32:06 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: GRG, San Angelino, and even Sengoku (was Re: Greetings) 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
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At 04:13 PM 12/9/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote: 
>>   Funny. I get that reaction a lot. I can tell you that Kurt Busiek has seen 
>> even given us a quote to use. San Angelo is certainly *not* an "Astro City 
>> RPG," but probably as close as you will ever come to one. 
>> 
>	Perhaps this tells you something. 
>The fans (at least this one) want 4-color but realistic. Or rather "4-color 
>Modern" as our local group has taken to calling it. A world where Heroes 
>are Heroes. Where there is no rationale behind "Super-Powers", They just 
>exist. Where heroes have morals, but are not perfect. They make mistakes but 
>understand it when they do. 
>	I think current comic industry troubles have shown that the "Image" 
>style of amoral T&A is doing more harm than good to the industry. Comics have 
>lost the respect they achieved for a short while in the 80's. 
> 
 
I agree. We don't need the 'heros are unrealistic, lets  
turn the token australian guy into a leatherclade twonk'  
mentality. . .the emphasis of the game should be in the hands 
of the gm, it's for him/her to decide wether s/he wants to go for  
'combat' or 'satire' or 'heros aren't' as a general theme. .  
 
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:36:39 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: San Angelino (Re: Greetings) 
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At 04:47 PM 12/9/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote: 
>3.	With the 'scientific' origin of powers, what kinds of origins are 
>	going to be 'out'? No magic, faerie realm, undead, psycho-activated 
>	(I think I am, therefore reality for me became that way), alien, 
>	X-dimensional, destiny, demi-god, etc type origins? I imagine it's 
>	too late, but I personally prefer worlds that leave the nature of 
>	Super Powers as vague and unknown. Leaving the field open to all the 
>	genre's full absurdity. 
> 
 
I think that's a staple of the genre- i wouldn't say 'absurd', i'd say  
'multi-gneric'. It's no more absurd than a dark future with an extensive 
net-economy (encouraging freelance work) AND mega-powerful corps 
(which are arguably obselete in such a world) 
 
 
 
> 
 
From: "Case" <wmpc@ix.netcom.com> 
Subject: How do I buy these abilites?? 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:37:59 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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 Problem (a): 
     'Aperion Negative' is a character I created who has the ability to 
travel along electrical current. While in this energy form, he can (a) use 
all of his electronic-based skills, like computer programming (like being in 
cyberspace), security systems, etc (b) travel FTL, (c) he can even 'jump' 
into a focus if someone hits him with an energy beam or flash.  When you 
think about it, this is an incredibly powerful ability!  But I really think 
I botched on how I bought the ability- I bought FTL with the -3/4 limitation 
"only on energy currents". Anybody have any ideas how I can make him truly 
'street legal'? What's he missing? Shrinking? 
 
  (b) If humans run at 6 hexes per phase in Champions, and real humans run 
18-22mph (is that right anybody?), how many hexes do gazelle run if they run 
35 mph? 
 
           Thanks, 
                -Case 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:59:39 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: GRG, San Angelino, and even Sengoku (was Re: Greetings) 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
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>At 04:13 PM 12/9/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote: 
>>>   Funny. I get that reaction a lot. I can tell you that Kurt Busiek has seen 
>>> even given us a quote to use. San Angelo is certainly *not* an "Astro City 
>>> RPG," but probably as close as you will ever come to one. 
>>> 
>>	Perhaps this tells you something. 
>>The fans (at least this one) want 4-color but realistic. Or rather "4-color 
>>Modern" as our local group has taken to calling it. A world where Heroes 
>>are Heroes. Where there is no rationale behind "Super-Powers", They just 
>>exist. Where heroes have morals, but are not perfect. They make mistakes but 
>>understand it when they do. 
>>	I think current comic industry troubles have shown that the "Image" 
>>style of amoral T&A is doing more harm than good to the industry. Comics have 
>>lost the respect they achieved for a short while in the 80's. 
>> 
> 
>I agree. We don't need the 'heros are unrealistic, lets  
>turn the token australian guy into a leatherclade twonk'  
>mentality. . .the emphasis of the game should be in the hands 
>of the gm, it's for him/her to decide wether s/he wants to go for  
>'combat' or 'satire' or 'heros aren't' as a general theme. .  
> 
> 
> 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 19:01:20 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 06:15 PM 12/9/97 -0800, Mark Lemming wrote: 
>Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>>  
>> At 03:30 PM 12/9/97 +0000, Rook wrote: 
>> >>      Hmmm.  Actually, I believe that using one limitation to 
>> >>      simulate another would be verboten in Hero terms. 
>> > 
>> >       'verboten'? 
>> Strictly forbidden.  Yeah, I had to look it up to be sure, too, but 
>> I was right. 
> 
>Didn't anybody watch Hogan's Heroes? 
 
   I did. 
   My childhood was largely filled with televised images:  Hogan's Heroes, 
Batman, the Monkees, Get Smart!, Bullwinkle, George of the Jungle, etc. 
   Which will probably explain a lot to most long-timers on the list. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: jrc@pop1.nai.net 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:01:39 -0500 
From: "Joe Claffey Jr." <jrc@mail1.nai.net> 
Subject: Re: The Court Jester (was Re: Waste of bandwith Question #1) 
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Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> wrote, 
>Actually, I heard in an interview with Danny Kaye that the fight WAS 
>choreographed. But Rathbone couldn't quite get the hang of the scene, so 
>a stand-in did his fighting. If you'll look closely, there are a LOT of 
>parts of the swordfight where Rathbone's back is all we see. 
 
 Odd, Rathbone was supposedly the best fencer in Hollywood at the time. The 
fencing scenes were (according to rumor) put in the Sherlock Holmes movies 
so he could win some! (He frequently played the villain.) 
 
  Joe Claffey               | "In the end, everything is a gag." 
  jrc@ct1.nai.net           |               - Charlie Chaplin 
 
 
From: Egyptoid <Egyptoid@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:27:53 EST 
Subject: Heromaker Collections 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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I've heard of disks of collected characters being for sale. 
Anybody tell me where that would be? 
Thanks in advance. 
-- 
Ell-Man 
 
From: Egyptoid <Egyptoid@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:28:00 EST 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re:  Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters? 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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In a message dated 12/9/97 11:14:40 AM, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
>>What, you mean the second ever australian champions character? *l* 
 
Seeker, Cptn.Aussie 1, Cptn.Aussie 2, Entropi, etc. etc. 
 
From: Egyptoid <Egyptoid@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:28:02 EST 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re:  Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony... 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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In a message dated 12/9/97 12:42:58 PM, bastet@iquest.net wrote: 
>Sounds like it.:)  I've kept considering doing a villain game sometime, 
>but I doubt my group would be into it.  Even when I run gray morality 
>games right now, they play heros.:) 
>TokyoMark 
 
You're lucky. I've got six players: 
2 hack & slay like D&D 
2 try for the biggest pepr bodycount (jail or morgue, they don't care) 
2 sleep through, except when they're geeking the rules. 
 
If I ran a villain game there'd be no stopping their juggernaut. 
 
From: Egyptoid <Egyptoid@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:28:05 EST 
Subject: Re:  Re: Help!!! 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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In a message dated 12/9/97 5:00:24 AM, tbarrie@ibm.net wrote: 
>> BTW: Rafael, if you have web access (or even access to Lynx)  
> Bit of an odd phrase, that. If he has access to Lynx, then by  
> definitihe has web access. 
 
But you might be surprised how many people can't conceive of 
the web without graphics, and to them lynx is another animal 
entirely. 
 
 
almost got phoenix re-worked..... 
 
-- 
Ell-Man 
 
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:20:15 -0800 
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Yes!!!  I'm back again, if anyone missed me.  :-)  My ISP went bankrupt,  
and it took a little time to get a new one. 
 
I avoided that last two "great linked debates" because I had argued myself  
out on the subject long ago  :-)  .... that and the fact that for the most  
part, it really doesn't matter how you play it, the differences are a lot  
more minimal than some people think.  Hopefully, this will not turn into  
another great linked debate, because this subject has gotten far more  
discussion that it really deserves!! 
 
>>> Another example is I could have a 12d6 photon blast, and link a 3d6  
flash 
>>> to it as well. Now we have a 12d6 EB along with a 3d6 flash (even  
though it 
>>> does require another hit roll) that can be done all in one phase. 
>> 
>>         Well, actually it is done with only *one* attack action.  
 However, 
>> notice that for the same number of Active Points, you could do either an 
>> 18d6 EB or a 9d6 flash, either one of which is more effective than the 
>> above.  Remember that upper damage classes are usually more effective  
than 
>> the lower ones as defenses only go so high.  (With real points, the  
above 
>> work out to a 16d6 eb or an 8d6 Flash, still much more effective.) 
>> Linked is a disad because you are permenantly linking two powers -- 
>> niether can be used alone and you lose overall effectiveness of the 
>> powers. 
> 
>	That last part is not quite correct.  The flash attack is linked to the 
> energy blast.  For the flash to operate, the energy blast must be fired.  
 But if 
> you fire the energy blast, you do not have to activate the flash.  The  
energy 
> blast is not limited.  The flash attack is. 
 
I agree totally with this statement.  The Limitation is only on the Flash,  
not the EB.  But .... 
 
It really doesn't matter whether you play this the other way around or not.  
 This is mostly a "points thingy" that makes the smaller Power cheaper.  
 When using this Power/Linked Power, _I_, the player choose the Power Level  
I want to use (assuming I didn't add a Limitation like "Beam Attack").  
 What this means is that I could fire off an attack that does 12d6 EB/3d6  
Flash, one that does 12d6 EB/0d6 Flash, or 1d6 EB/3d6 Flash (maybe even 0d6  
EB/3d6 Flash, so long as 1 END is spent for the EB when using the Powers). 
 
 
> The link is a 1/2 disadvantage, but is it really? 
 
Keep in mind that many of us play Powers such that two powers can be fired  
off at the same time, so long as only one attack roll is made, and defenses  
apply seperatly vs. the two Powers (Unfortunately, there is nothing in the  
rules that specifically say you can or can't do this).  Thus, Linked is a  
Limitation in that context.  Mind you, I firmly believe the rules do allow  
combining Powers ... but it _really_doesn't_ matter because semantics and  
all the silly "proofs" aside, I can take almost any SFX and make it work  
whether you allow two powers to be used together, insist that they must be  
linked to do so, or insist that both Powers be Linked and both must always  
be used together. 
 
The main difference is that if you insist the two Powers must be Linked,  
then I must always used the Larger Power at least it's minimum increment  
(or pay at least 1 END on it, depending on how you would play it) and over  
all, _and_ it will usually cost me less points for my attack. 
 
The exception I can think of would be for something like where all my  
Powers were Photonic in nature, and I wanted a Flash attached to all my  
attack Powers.  Being able to combine Powers would mean I would only need  
to buy one Flash, rather than lots of redundant ones, each Linked to a  
different Power.  If you allowed me to Link a Power to a Multi-Power  
Framework (I don't think I would allow that) then I could even get around  
that exception. 
 
So, I really can't get very emotional on this subject anymore, because it  
really doesn't matter how you play it.  It's a Rules Lawyer issue, and has  
little effect on actual Character Design and Play. 
 
				~ Mike 
 
P.S.  The Rules Lawyer in me agrees 100% with Rat on this issue.  The  
Player in me doesn't care squat!! 
 
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net> 
Subject: RE: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:28:45 -0800 
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> Well, I can use limited to design any limitation I desire. So I could  
just 
> design a limitation that reads: 
>	"Power X can only be used when power Y is in use", then assign that 
> limitation to power X. 
> 
>	Or for the other side of the camp, I make a limitation that says: 
> 
>	"Powers X and Y can only be used in combination". 
> 
> Nothing illegal there. The only argument now is what are they worth? 
> -1/4, -1/2, or -3/4. 
>	And that's a GM call. Personally, in my games the first one 
> would be a -1/2 on power X. The second would be a -1/2 on the less 
> expensive of the two powers. 
 
And, how about a Limitation saying Power J can only be used with Powers X,  
Y and Z.  As a house rule, I made this a -1/4 version of Linked in my  
campaign. 
 
				~ Mike 
 
Reply-To: "Jeff Tolle" <Trigon@msn.com> 
From: "Jeff Tolle" <trigon@email.msn.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony... 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:30:21 -0500 
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-----Original Message----- 
From: Case <wmpc@ix.netcom.com> 
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: Sunday, December 07, 1997 6:13 PM 
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures- Breaking up the monotony... 
 
 
> 
>-----Original Message----- 
>From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
>To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org> 
>Date: Sunday, December 07, 1997 10:51 AM 
>Subject: Re: Champions Adventures 
> 
 
>  (e) A great adventure I'm working on for the Summer of '98- a *long* 
>overdue spoof of Vampire:The Masquerade et al. You play rednecks chasing 
>after some 'lunatics' who just "gone sucked da blood out  ma sons prize 
>HAWG! Gawd dammit- lets go show 'em some old fashioned Southern JUSTICE! 
>YEEE HAW!" 
 
 
I think I was just insulted!  Keep that up, and we'll make you squeal like a 
pig!!! 
 
Jeff Tolle 
 
 
 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 23:32:13 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
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I have just acquired a copy of Ninja Hero, and I was wondering what the 
major differences between it and TUMA are.  Mostly, is TUMA worth getting 
if I have NH?  (I suspect it is.)  How much of a rewrite am I going to have 
to do to the characters that I am rewriting now? 
 
And did anyone see any major problems in NH that they fixed (either house 
rules, or changes made in TUMA)? 
 
Thanks, 
Jerry 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:59:42 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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>   We haven't published a 4th Ed. product since last August (Heroic Adventures 
> Vol. 2), and sales of that were not too great. But I fully expect San Angelo 
> to change that trend. But as I said earlier, I'm here now. bend my ear. ;) 
 
	Speaking personally, I didn't really like the look of the two 
Heroic Adventures products.  There were some interesting scenarios and 
characters, but it seemed to suffer a lack of polish. 
 
	San Angelo, howeever, I saw a playtest version of at GenCon.  Very 
impressive looking.  I trust the packaging will be as strong. 
 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:06:38 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
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> 	'verboten'? 
> Well, I can use limited to design any limitation I desire. So I could just 
> design a limitation that reads: 
 
	Sure you could.  However, if that limitation does what another one 
already does, you should use the original.  (Official rules of course, 
sometimes I wonder whether Linked should just be dropped.) 
 
> Nothing illegal there. The only argument now is what are they worth? 
> -1/4, -1/2, or -3/4. 
> 	And that's a GM call. Personally, in my games the first one 
> would be a -1/2 on power X. The second would be a -1/2 on the less 
> expensive of the two powers. 
 
 
	Hmmm.  Well, one thing to think about.  If I were to drop or 
modify Linked, I would specify that Lining Non-Attack powers is much more 
limiting than linking Attack Powers. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes: 
 
AJ> Hm..clearly you haven't had such munchkin stunts as '1 recoverable 
AJ> 1-minute continuing charge of force-field' 
 
No, I haven't.  My GMs have generally been of the breed that says "no" to 
things like that. 
 
AJ> (or 4 clips instead of recoverable); net -1/2 limitation, and _so_ much 
AJ> more useful than a standard force field most of the time.  In any case, 
AJ> the point wasn't that Charges was vague (it isn't), its that it 
AJ> demonstrates that disadvantages _can_ give advantages. 
 
And in the case of the very few limitations that do, they do so because 
they always have done so.  Even though they had the chance to fix such 
problems, Hero Games decided to stick with the status quo.  Thus we have 
seemingly weird costs for things like Strength, Armor vs. Force Field, and 
Charges vs. Reduced Endurance. 
 
[...] 
 
AJ> Hm...does it say anything about abort?  I thought all it said was that 
AJ> you could use it against an incoming attack. 
 
My mistake.  Dispell requires a saved action to use against an incoming 
attack.  It is still the only power that may be used offensively against an 
attack. 
 
>> Nowhere does "Linked" state that it provides any specific advantages to 
>> powers. 
 
AJ> So?  Actually, I believe it does have the word 'allows' in it, but I'd 
AJ> need to check the text to be sure. 
 
Apparantly a common misconception: Linked *requires* the use of a power 
with another power, but the description never says anything about 
"allowing one power to be used with another".  It is a limitation because 
the limited power cannot be used alone. 
 
I will cut myself short, with a couple of rhetorical questions.  Charges 
specifically states that it provides the Zero Endurance advantage as a 
freebie.  Linked came about at least one edition after Charges.  So, why 
does Linked not mention this "Linkable" advantage?  If "Linkable" is not 
the default condition for powers, why has the "Linkable" advantage never 
been published?  This to me is something critical enough that it would not 
have been left out by accident after *three* revisions of the 4th edition. 
 
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Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:26:40 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 107 
 
 
> Imagine 2 Linked 5d6 EBs vs. 1 10d6 EB.  Since you get defenses against each 
> attack, the second power is a superior construction and thus should cost 
> more than the first. 
 
 
	Exactly what I was trying to say, but so much clearer. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 21:28:44 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: San Angelino (Re: Greetings) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 110 
 
> >3.     With the 'scientific' origin of powers, what kinds of origins are 
> >       going to be 'out'? No magic, faerie realm, undead, psycho-activated 
> >       (I think I am, therefore reality for me became that way), alien, 
> >       X-dimensional, destiny, demi-god, etc type origins? I imagine it's 
> >       too late, but I personally prefer worlds that leave the nature of 
> >       Super Powers as vague and unknown. Leaving the field open to all the 
> >       genre's full absurdity. 
> > 
> 
> I think that's a staple of the genre- i wouldn't say 'absurd', i'd say 
> 'multi-gneric'. It's no more absurd than a dark future with an extensive 
> net-economy (encouraging freelance work) AND mega-powerful corps 
> (which are arguably obselete in such a world) 
 
    Oh don't get me wrong. It is totally absurd. And I wouldn't have it any 
other way. It's 
what I love so much about Super Heroes. They're an unreal idea in an almost real 
world. 
Legends of mythic porportion come to life. 
    What bothered me about the San Angelino promo was how it tried to explain 
Super's in so 
rational and scientific a manner as to stifle the genre. IMHO. Otherwise I loved 
what I saw. 
    I'll probably buy it and just write out that portion of it in my own usage. 
 
-- 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 21:29:23 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Heromaker Collections 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 111 
 
> I've heard of disks of collected characters being for sale. 
> Anybody tell me where that would be? 
> Thanks in advance. 
 
    http://www.herogames.com 
-- 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 10 Dec 1997 00:30:18 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes: 
 
VL> Uh ... no.  Rather, you "pay" for this ability with the possibility of 
VL> having the power stolen AND used *against* you by your enemies. 
 
Uh... no.  You "pay" for this ability with the fact that your powers *will* 
be stolen and used against you by your enemies.  Focus is not a limitation 
because that might happen, it is a limitation because it will happen. 
 
That does not change the fact that if one frequently loans equipment to 
one's allies, those allies should pay for the equipment. 
 
VL> And in any case, even if it got REALLY obnoxious, I'd prefer to make 
VL> the single character work out a UBO structure rather than require other 
VL> characters to pay points for what is still an ability of the first. 
 
A Universal Focus is not necessarilly an ability of the character that 
purchases his powers with that limitation. 
 
VL> They benefit from it, but only to the same degree that a character 
VL> benefits from the presence of any teammate.  I'm currently in a 
VL> campaign where I play the brickish sidekick [Castle] of swashbuckling 
VL> vigilante Cavalier.  Does he pay for super strength, OAF: Castle? 
VL> Should I buy chemistry skills, IAF: Cavalier? 
 
Here is where your analogy breaks:  If Castle and Cavalier are separated 
they do not have access to each other's abilities.  But if Cavalier gives 
Castle his radio (OAF, Universal), separating the two characters does not 
deprive Castle of the use Cavalier's radio.  If Cavalier frequently loans 
a radio to Castle, Castle should buy one for himself. 
 
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:32:40 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 108 
 
 
> It really doesn't matter whether you play this the other way around or not. 
>  This is mostly a "points thingy" that makes the smaller Power cheaper. 
>  When using this Power/Linked Power, _I_, the player choose the Power Level 
> I want to use (assuming I didn't add a Limitation like "Beam Attack"). 
>  What this means is that I could fire off an attack that does 12d6 EB/3d6 
> Flash, one that does 12d6 EB/0d6 Flash, or 1d6 EB/3d6 Flash (maybe even 0d6 
> EB/3d6 Flash, so long as 1 END is spent for the EB when using the Powers). 
 
	Nooooooo! 
 
	That really doesn't work.  Not at all. 
 
	No matter which interpretation you use, which camp you side with, 
running the limitation like that is just a plain old points crock. 
Basically, you get a -1/2 on a power for absolutely no disadvantage, save 
having to spend 1 END on another power for a 0 level.  This means there is 
no reason not to take every power linked. 
 
	Hmmm.  Me and Gazza, one of the generals in the "yes you can" camp 
came to this conclusion a year or so ago.  Wish he were here now to help 
further this one aspect of the linked argument. 
 
	Does anyone know how to get a hold of Gazza, BTW.  I miss his 
commentary. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
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>>>>> "MS" == Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net> writes: 
 
MS> And, how about a Limitation saying Power J can only be used with Powers 
MS> X, Y and Z.  As a house rule, I made this a -1/4 version of Linked in 
MS> my campaign. 
 
How about if you are going to rework Linked you first decide whether or not 
"Linkable" is the default condition for powers.  That is, is it possible to 
use multiple powers simultaneously, or not.  If you decide not, then you 
need to decide the advantage cost of "Linkable". 
 
Only then should you worry about the various "flavors" of Linked. 
 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:55:44 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 114 
 
 
> I will cut myself short, with a couple of rhetorical questions.  Charges 
> specifically states that it provides the Zero Endurance advantage as a 
> freebie.  Linked came about at least one edition after Charges.  So, why 
> does Linked not mention this "Linkable" advantage?  If "Linkable" is not 
> the default condition for powers, why has the "Linkable" advantage never 
> been published?  This to me is something critical enough that it would not 
> have been left out by accident after *three* revisions of the 4th edition. 
 
 
	That's easy.  Because there is no such thing as "Linkable". 
Powers that are linked have become a new Metapower.  They aren't seperate. 
Having two powers be seperate and together isn't allowed at all, even with 
any type of advantage.  Buy them all seperately, in a MP if you wish. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes: 
 
JD> I have just acquired a copy of Ninja Hero, and I was wondering what the 
JD> major differences between it and TUMA are. 
 
Aaron Allston vs. Steve Long. 
 
While TUMA reprints most of the game mechanics of Ninja Hero, the latter is 
a more down to earth book that can be used with almost any campaign.  Ninja 
Hero includes a sourcebook dealing with martial artists in extant campaigns 
and running martial arts campaigns at various power levels; it was not 
reprinted in TUMA. 
 
The "Ultimate" books are strongly geared towards two things: supers 
campaigns revolving around a particular type of character and power gamers. 
To wit, a dozen variations of Aid in a cheap Mutipower (which is prohibited 
by Ninja Hero for martial arts campaigns) and the ranged martial maneuvers 
(which is just plain stupid -- use combat skill levels with your weapons). 
Add an Ultimate book to most extant campaigns and you will quickly 
unbalance things. 
 
As for content... TUMA adds a bunch of unnecessary maneuvers -- they 
duplicate the effects of existing maneuvers combined with a few combat 
skill levels.  At least one of the maneuvers is illegal: abort on a throw 
maneuver base.  It goes on to rework almost every style written up in Ninja 
Hero, frequently adding 4 to 8 of these "new" maneuvers to each style. 
TUMA includes new write ups for a plethora of obscure and questionable 
styles, and occasionally something actually useful.  The fictional styles 
(which do not exist in NH) are obnoxious at best and frequently worse. 
Many of Long's power writeups range from questionable to outright broken. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 22:07:48 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 115 
 
Stephen McGinness wrote: 
>  
 
> these things. Perhaps when you have a power then if it is not invisible and 
> you can't think of obvious special effects for all three senses then it 
> means it is subject to being worked out by _common_ _sense_, e.g., an INT 
> roll or something. 
 
Hmmm... "Common Sense" as a sense group!  I wonder what it would mean to  
be invisible to common sense? 
 
Seriously, taking "miscellaneous minor effects" in place of a third sense  
group seems practical, balancing, and within the spirit of the rules. 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 22:15:13 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 119 
 
> MS> And, how about a Limitation saying Power J can only be used with Powers 
> MS> X, Y and Z.  As a house rule, I made this a -1/4 version of Linked in 
> MS> my campaign. 
> 
> How about if you are going to rework Linked you first decide whether or not 
> "Linkable" is the default condition for powers.  That is, is it possible to 
> use multiple powers simultaneously, or not.  If you decide not, then you 
> need to decide the advantage cost of "Linkable". 
 
    Answer is: 
NOT IMPORTANT. 
 
Cause every limitation in the game is just a variation on 'limited' anyway. 
So I can write down whatever I want, call it whatever I want, then take it to my 
GM for 
a value ruling. Chances are if it matches the GM's reading of something already 
in a published book 
then I'll get a ruling matching that. But that's not always the case. 
 
 
-- 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:23:58 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: San Angelino (Re: Greetings) 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 09:28 PM 12/9/97 -0800, Rook wrote: 
>    Oh don't get me wrong. It is totally absurd. And I wouldn't have it any 
>other way. It's 
>what I love so much about Super Heroes. They're an unreal idea in an almost real 
>world. 
>Legends of mythic porportion come to life. 
>    What bothered me about the San Angelino promo was how it tried to explain 
>Super's in so 
>rational and scientific a manner as to stifle the genre. IMHO. Otherwise I loved 
>what I saw. 
>    I'll probably buy it and just write out that portion of it in my own usage. 
> 
 
well, i'd say there;s room for both- a 'rationally described' character  
(from some point of view) and some guy who headbutted a giant rabbit and  
hence can shoot eye-beams (go figure) in one team is coolest. . .  
 
 
>-- 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:32:16 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters? 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
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At 05:32 AM 12/10/97 -500, Vance Scott wrote: 
>> Hello; 
>>     In my quest for info on Speedsters I have one more question. 
>>  
>> Are they any Speedsters published in any Champions books. So far I've 
>> been unable to find any. 
 
Though not an offical product, The summer issue of Herozine had a Speedster, 
named Torrent, she was a member of The DVT, a super villain team. 
 
While I haven't done so in the past, if anyone is interested I could start 
posting some Herozine characters to the list. 
 
Michael 
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net> 
Subject: RE: Greetings 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:39:46 -0800 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
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X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 99 
 
>> Are there any plans for more superhero miniatures in the foreseeable 
>> future?  Ever since Soldiers & Sorcery (? is that the name? doesnt sound 
>> exactly right) stopped doing the Champions minis (did they go out of 
>> business?), there's nobody left doing superhero miniatures. 
> 
> To my knowledge,  the company did go out of bussiness (taking about a 
> $100 dollar order that I had send and sending me nothing in return, 
> bummer).  I would be interested in a company that did sell Super Hero 
> minatures, but I would be a bit hesitant to order from them initially 
> (fool me once shame on you, foo me twice, well you know the rest). 
 
While in general I liked the S&S stuff (by the way, I am sure I have seen  
some of the champs stuff still available at a local gaming store), they  
were _huge_!  In Champions scale (1" = 2m), the miniatures were about 8  
feet tall, and some were larger yet.  Even 25mm is large for Hero, and the  
S&S stuff was around 30mm. 
 
				~ Mike 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:49:00 EST 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 125 
 
<< Much as I just told you to hold back the spam ( :) ); I'd love it if you 
used us for market reseach into what would make good future products. >> 
 
  I will take that into consideration. In fact, I think I did that in my first 
message to the list. ;) 
 
<< Remember for every one of us in here, there is often a whole gaming group 
out there that we GM or talk with. So word from here does spread pretty far at 
times.>> 
 
  Understood. Just do me a favor and make sure that everyone in those groups 
has a copy of the San Angelo preview. ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
  http://members.aol.com/goldrushg 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:50:02 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 124 
 
 
> How about if you are going to rework Linked you first decide whether or not 
> "Linkable" is the default condition for powers.  That is, is it possible to 
> use multiple powers simultaneously, or not.  If you decide not, then you 
> need to decide the advantage cost of "Linkable". 
 
 	There is no need for this, as Linkable would not be allowed.  If 
powers aren't linked, they are seperate powers.  Two linked powers become 
one metapower.  There is no allowed in-between. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 22:56:28 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Herozine? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 126 
 
> Though not an offical product, The summer issue of Herozine had a Speedster, 
 
 Hey is this Herozine a published thingy? or a web thingy? 
 
> While I haven't done so in the past, if anyone is interested I could start 
> posting some Herozine characters to the list. 
> 
> Michael 
> Rising Force Publications 
> Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine... 
> http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
 
 
-- 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:59:58 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 123 
 
 
	Rat's comments should be seen as exactly that, his.  He has his 
own (very strong) predjudices.  One of them is a dislike for Long and 
everything he writes, no matter how useful and good.  Take with a (large) 
grain of salt. 
 
> The "Ultimate" books are strongly geared towards two things: supers 
> campaigns revolving around a particular type of character and power gamers. 
 
 	Blea.  Oversimplificated and outright false. 
 
 
> To wit, a dozen variations of Aid in a cheap Mutipower (which is prohibited 
> by Ninja Hero for martial arts campaigns) 
 
	But a GM can allow or disallow anything he or she wishes.  Just 
because you dislike one particular power construct is no reason to say it 
doesn't belong in print. 
 
> and the ranged martial maneuvers 
> (which is just plain stupid -- use combat skill levels with your weapons). 
 
	By the same token, of course, Rat means to say that all Martial 
maneuvers are just plain stupid.  Buy combat skill levels and just be 
happy. 
 
	Or, if like most you like flavor, go ahead and use MAs, both 
ranged and HTH for the added bonus to the game. 
 
> Add an Ultimate book to most extant campaigns and you will quickly 
> unbalance things. 
 
	Um, yeah, whatever. 
> 
> As for content... TUMA adds a bunch of unnecessary maneuvers -- they 
> duplicate the effects of existing maneuvers combined with a few combat 
> skill levels. 
 
 	 That's what all maneuvers are anyway.  There is just a large 
pre-made list to allow for different flavor. 
 
> At least one of the maneuvers is illegal: abort on a throw maneuver base. 
 
	Which I believe had a special explination.  Anyway. 
 
> It goes on to rework almost every style written up in Ninja 
> Hero, frequently adding 4 to 8 of these "new" maneuvers to each style. 
 
	For added flavor, yes.  Quite nice, though one can still take a 
simplified package. 
 
> TUMA includes new write ups for a plethora of obscure and questionable 
> styles, and occasionally something actually useful.  The fictional styles 
> (which do not exist in NH) are obnoxious at best and frequently worse. 
 
	Actually, they are good SuperHero and MA campaign MAs for certain 
genre styles.  Quite a nice selection, actually. 
 
> Many of Long's power writeups range from questionable to outright 
> broken. 
 
	Add the unspoken, "becuase that is not how I might do that power" 
that must be added to all of Rat's interpretations of rules.  Actually, 
they are built well and take some different approaches to usually obscure 
power construction areas. 
 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:16:31 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 128 
 
 
> More to the point, doesn't your own FAQ quote Steve Peterson as follows? 
> 	http://www.spacetec.com/~drg/hero/faq.html 
> 
> Q:  How many attacks can you make in a single Phase? 
> 
> A:  You may make only a single attack action during a Phase. You may 
>     activate as many attack powers as you have time, Endurance, and 
>     framework point allocations to activate, but you may still only make 
>     one attack action. 
 
 
	Actually, this is only one of what were originally two 
(conflicting) answers.  One somehow disappeared into the mists.  Hmmm. 
 
	And actually, it's not as clear as it may seem.  You may activate 
the powers, but it does say only one attack (action).  Is that to be read 
only one attack power actually attacks? 
 
 
		-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:27:12 EST 
Subject: Re: San Angelo (Re: Greetings) 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 129 
 
<< 1.	What's the ethnic makeup? And don't just tell me 'everyone'. :) >> 
 
  The ethnic make-up of what? Of the city? Of the NPCs appearing in the book? 
Of the characters in the illos? 
 
<< This plays a major role in cultures and relations. Are the asian groups 
Chinese, Korean, Mhong, Philipino, Laotian, Vietnamese... >> 
 
  Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes... 
 
<<	Are my hispanics Mexican, Mexican-American, Guatamalin, Columbian, Cuban 
(not likely on the west coast...), Peruvian... >> 
 
  I don't think I'm following you here. 
 
<< Are my caucasians WASP, Russian emmigrants, Irish, Italian... Are my blacks 
Carribean, Afro-American, African... Pakistani or Indian? >> 
 
  We have a little of everything. Like I said, we tried to make San Angelo 
seem like a real city with real people. If you want exact demographics of our 
San Angelo I can dig them up for you. But I can tell you that if you are 
expecting a city with just "four colors" (white, black, brown and yellow) 
you're going to be very, very disappointed. 
 
<<	Any Reservations nearby? >> 
 
  Yes. 
 
<<	Do they get along like in SF, or kill each other when possible like in LA? 
>> 
 
  Who? 
 
<<	Seperate neighborhoods (LA), or mixed in on the same streets (SF)? >> 
 
  A little of both, depending on the neighborhood in question. There are 
certainly some neighborhoods in San Angelo in which the residents are 
predominantly [name your ethnicity here], but there are also some very diverse 
neighborhoods.  
 
<< 2. 	Are we thinking a Northen CA style community or Southern CA style? It 
read like a southern city from the intro. Kind of made me think of San Diego 
meets Santa Cruz. >> 
 
  SA:CoH has not been detailed to that level, perhaps. We left a number of 
elements vague for the GM to customize to tailor it to the style and needs of 
his own campaign. 
 
<< You know, northern is typical liberal, counterculture, lots of fringe 
groups, and multi-ethnic. southern is more conservative, trend setting, 
hollywood, anti immigrant, seperate races. >> 
 
  Northern is liberal and southern is conservative? Aren't we being just a bit 
generalistic, here? And how can you associate Hollywood with 
conservatism?<LOL> 
 
<< 3.	With the 'scientific' origin of powers, what kinds of origins are going 
to be 'out'? >> 
 
  Not a single one. You need to re-read the section concerning the Flux again. 
And just to be on the safe side, we revised that section to be even *more* 
clear about what the flux's role in origins is. 
 
  In short it is a catalyst only. Nobody gets their powers from the flux. 
Rather, the flux makes their powers "possible." 
 
<< No magic, faerie realm, undead, psycho-activated (I think I am, therefore 
reality for me became that way), alien, X-dimensional, destiny, demi-god, etc 
type origins?>> 
 
  You can do whatever you like in your game. We are presenting a setting for 
you to use, tear apart, whatever you like. But plerase don't think that we are 
intentionally bvuilding in some kind of "limiters" into the setting. We are 
not. 
 
<< I imagine it's too late, but I personally prefer worlds that leave the 
nature of Super Powers as vague and unknown. Leaving the field open to all the 
genre's full absurdity.>> 
 
  Then you are doing just that... imagining. ;) 
 
<< 4.	There's more stuff to say, but I'll get to it as I think of it.>> 
 
  I welcome your questions and comments. However, I would urge you to reread 
that chapter in its entirety before posting your q 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:34:40 EST 
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites?? 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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<< I bought FTL with the -3/4 limitation "only on energy currents". Anybody 
have any ideas how I can make him truly 'street legal'? What's he missing? 
Shrinking? >> 
 
  Actually, FTL cannot be used within the atmosphere, according to the BBB. 
Might I suggest using a form of Teleport, with the special effect/Limitation 
of "Only along electrical currents?" Just a thought. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:56:51 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Re: Herozine? 
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At 10:56 PM 12/9/97 -0800, Rook wrote: 
>> Though not an offical product, The summer issue of Herozine had a Speedster, 
> 
> Hey is this Herozine a published thingy? or a web thingy? 
 
Published, in fact we have been around for four years. 
 
You can check out our web site for more info, but be warned, it hasn't been 
updated much lately.  We are currently building a new page that I can update 
my self. 
 
Michael 
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:00:59 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites?? 
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>   Actually, FTL cannot be used within the atmosphere, according to the BBB. 
> Might I suggest using a form of Teleport, with the special effect/Limitation 
> of "Only along electrical currents?" Just a thought. 
 
 
	So can we consider this an "official" ruling. <g> 
 
	Anyway, that's a construct I used myself a few times.  Once, I 
mixed it with a limitation for no control over destination as the 
character moved through power lines, grids, etc.  Never knew exactly where 
he'd pop out. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:02:37 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites?? 
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At 02:34 AM 12/10/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< I bought FTL with the -3/4 limitation "only on energy currents". Anybody 
>have any ideas how I can make him truly 'street legal'? What's he missing? 
>Shrinking? >> 
> 
>  Actually, FTL cannot be used within the atmosphere, according to the BBB. 
>Might I suggest using a form of Teleport, with the special effect/Limitation 
>of "Only along electrical currents?" Just a thought. 
 
Another way, is linked desolidfication.  Whlie disolid you can use FTL in an 
atmosphere, but FTL is so hard to calculate when you only go a short distance. 
I would go with limited T-Port as well.   
 
Michael 
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 08:29:05 GMT 
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk 
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness) 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight 
Cc: champ-l@org.omg 
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At 10:07 PM 9/12/97 -0800, Robert A. West wrote: 
>Hmmm... "Common Sense" as a sense group!  I wonder what it would mean to  
>be invisible to common sense? 
 
Good Question!! 
 
"THAT couldn't POSSIBLY have happened, therefore there must be a better  
explanation for it!" 
 
Maybe something like ghosts are supposed to have. If you are "sensitive" you  
will notice the ghost, if you are not then you will see nothing........ 
 
>Seriously, taking "miscellaneous minor effects" in place of a third sense  
>group seems practical, balancing, and within the spirit of the rules. 
 
Thank you! :-) 
 
><-------------------------------------------------------> 
>Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
>Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
>http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
> 
 
 
Stephen 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 08:38:34 GMT 
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk 
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness) 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
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At 12:30 AM 10/12/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes: 
> 
>VL> They benefit from it, but only to the same degree that a character 
>VL> benefits from the presence of any teammate.  I'm currently in a 
>VL> campaign where I play the brickish sidekick [Castle] of swashbuckling 
>VL> vigilante Cavalier.  Does he pay for super strength, OAF: Castle? 
>VL> Should I buy chemistry skills, IAF: Cavalier? 
> 
>Here is where your analogy breaks:  If Castle and Cavalier are separated 
>they do not have access to each other's abilities.  But if Cavalier gives 
>Castle his radio (OAF, Universal), separating the two characters does not 
>deprive Castle of the use Cavalier's radio.  If Cavalier frequently loans 
>a radio to Castle, Castle should buy one for himself. 
 
I'm not sure I follow either of your arguments through, but feel closer to  
Ludator's position than Rat's. 
 
A power is OK by me if _someone_ has paid for it. In the Castle and Cavalier  
example being played out above, yeah Cavalier may provide castle with his  
radio and Castle benefits from that, what isn't mentioned is that in doing  
so Cavalier is completely deprived of a power that he has paid points for,  
and if Castle loses said piece of equipment Cavalier will NOT get the points  
back. If Cavalier had bought Aid: STR and regularly uses it to boost  
Castle's STR ability should Castle have to buy the extra STR?? 
 
 Just because another member of the team benefits from someone else's power  
doesn't mean that it is advantageous for the character who paid the points  
for it, and just because a limitation saves a character points doesn't mean  
it can't be advantageous for another member of the group. I'm quite happy as  
a referee to see _paid_for_ pieces of kit being swapped.  
 
 
Stephen 
 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 03:42:22 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight 
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At 08:29 AM 12/10/97 GMT, Stephen McGinness wrote: 
>At 10:07 PM 9/12/97 -0800, Robert A. West wrote: 
>>Hmmm... "Common Sense" as a sense group!  I wonder what it would mean to  
>>be invisible to common sense? 
> 
>Good Question!! 
> 
>"THAT couldn't POSSIBLY have happened, therefore there must be a better  
>explanation for it!" 
> 
>Maybe something like ghosts are supposed to have. If you are "sensitive" you  
>will notice the ghost, if you are not then you will see nothing........ 
> 
But wouldn't that be invisible to all senses *but* Common Sense?  (Or 
whatever you define "sensitive" to be.)  If they are still visible to 
sight...  you may just tell yourself it wasn't real. 
 
This actually sounds like the thing that Garou (werewolves) in the White 
Wolf game have.  People can't see them if they don't want to be seen 
(normal people, that is... few and far between in WW. : )  Sometimes 
referred to as the SEP Field... Somebody Else's Problem.  "I don't have to 
deal with it, it's Somebody Else's Problem." 
 
>>Seriously, taking "miscellaneous minor effects" in place of a third sense  
>>group seems practical, balancing, and within the spirit of the rules. 
> 
>Thank you! :-) 
 
I like it, too. 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:02:06 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
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Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>  
> On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Robert A. West wrote: 
>  
> > Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
> > > 
> > > As far as the wooshing goes, a glider might be a good example to consider. 
 
> > 
> > And, of course, Gliding normally costs no END, therefore is IPE by 
> > default.  My word!  Do you think that this may have been intentional? 
> > ;-) 
> > 
>  
> Actually, no. Powered flight wouldn't be the determining factor for a 
> wooshing noise, as I understand it.  
 
Actually, yes.  First of all, the "wooshing" noise that most people seem  
to be thinking of from real life are the engines.  In WW2, gliders were  
used several times with relative or complete surprise: consider the  
German assault on Belgium.  That is a pretty good argument for IPE, IMHO. 
 
> It seems to me that size and speed are the determining factors for 
> whooshing. Why should a character Flying at 10" per phase make any more 
> noise than a character Gliding at 10", if his thrust is silent? 
 
If his thrust is silent, then he has IPE, or sound is not one of the  
three sense groups.  I don't think that IPE need make passing  
through the air completely silent at close range, any more than having an  
IPE attack makes the character's breathing silent, especially if the  
character is pushing several phases in a row. 
 
>  
> As I said, I don't have any good firsthand experience with gliders. It 
> wouldn't surprise me if up close one might hear a little noise coming from 
> one, but I doubt you'd hear much very far away. 
 
As I remarked above, they were pretty effective as silent approach in  
World War II.  To first order, I think that the rules work out about  
right.  Second-order is special effect, and third order is beyond the  
precision of the rules. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:30:16 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
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Michael Sprague wrote: 
>  
>  
> And, how about a Limitation saying Power J can only be used with Powers X, 
> Y and Z.  As a house rule, I made this a -1/4 version of Linked in my 
> campaign. 
 
No house rule required: this is a garden-variety Variable Limitation,  
with different flavors of the same limitation instead of different  
limitations. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 04:42:28 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: To Steven Brust Readers 
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I've been writing up some info for the fantasy world of Steven Brust's 
Vlad Taltos for a possible future campaign (And because it's one of my 
favorite worlds). 
 
I'm curious to know, how would people write up sorcery from that world? 
I've been debating VVP v. Multipower.  Since sorcery technically is just 
drawing on power from the Orb and using it with a skill roll, VVP seems 
like the best option, but for a fantasy game simulating the effects from 
the book is very expensive.  Teleports of a couple of hundred miles are 
not uncommon, even for a less skilled sorcerer.  I'm tempted to resort to 
house rules. 
 
Witchcraft is a little easier, since it has alot of built in limitations 
(Gestures, incant, extra time, spell components), and is so flexible it 
almost has to be a VVP. 
 
Thoughts or opinions? 
 
TokyoMark 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Locks 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:53:48 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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On Tuesday, December 09, 1997 12:08 PM, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
 
 
 
<snip> 
>One advantage, though, is that it's quick and portable. If I want to 
get 
>into your car or your home, I can quickly jiggle a key in your lock, 
and 
>come back later with a perfect match. Very inconspicuous. 
 
Nope. He jiggled that key a couple dozen times to get it. Every time 
he filed, he had to jiggle again. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:56:22 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>  
>  
> Apparantly a common misconception: Linked *requires* the use of a power 
> with another power, but the description never says anything about 
> "allowing one power to be used with another".  It is a limitation because 
> the limited power cannot be used alone. 
 
>  
> I will cut myself short, with a couple of rhetorical questions.  ...   
 
 
More to the point, doesn't your own FAQ quote Steve Peterson as follows? 
	http://www.spacetec.com/~drg/hero/faq.html 
 
Q:  How many attacks can you make in a single Phase? 
   
A:  You may make only a single attack action during a Phase. You may 
    activate as many attack powers as you have time, Endurance, and 
    framework point allocations to activate, but you may still only make 
    one attack action. 
 
This seems to clearly put paid to the idea of a "Linkable" advantage,  
although it is not the way that I had been running things prior to  
reading this.  If my tank has a 120mm gun and a coaxial machine gun, I  
can fire either or both, provided that I am using the same attack action,  
attack roll and attack options for both.  If I want to ensure that the  
two fire only together, then I can take the smaller power as linked and  
save some points, while wasting ammo. 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:21:56 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs 
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Rick Holding wrote: 
>  
> -- Robert A. West wrote: 
> ><<snip>> 
 
> > 
> > Thus, I would hold that a Drain BODY cannot be used for this purpose. 
> > Drain Movement might have an SFX of injuring a leg, but severing the 
> > limb is not generally a reasonable special effect, unless regrowing limbs 
> > is an everyman power. 
>  
>         Why not?  In a world where powers are defined by special effects, why 
> can't a body drain be represented by eventual lose of limbs?   
 
Sorry, I left out a piece of the argument, assuming that it would be  
clear.  If you represent limb loss by a Drain, then what happens when the  
Drain fades?  Doesn't the limb logically have to regrow?  Also, remember  
that the fade rate is unaffected by the target, so it will fade just as  
fast for feeble Aunt May as for Spiderman.  This just has the wrong look  
and feel for my taste. 
 
> What about a 
> vorpal blade?  It does normal damage and on an 8- activation (5-, whatever) the 
> target suffers 1-2D6 body drain, recovery time shifted into the far future. 
 
Fine, you sever my arm with recovery 5 pts/year(+2 1/4)!  Even if I am  
the worst bozo in the world, I will bud a new arm after a couple of  
months, and get it back in a year or eighteen months. 
 
Compare this to a 1-2D6 Cumulative Major Transform (loss of limb).  There  
are two options for a Transform: to reverse automatically with BODY  
recovery, or to reverse only after specific conditions are met.  In this  
case, we reverse only if a specific limb-regrowing power is used, a  
prosthetic obtained or other specialized conditions apply. 
 
 
>  
>         On a side issue, (and please don't think this is a shot at you), many 
> people on this list seem to prefer the use of transform as a catch-all power. 
 
I regard Transform as the last resort power, and prefer to use another  
type of power whenever possible.  For example, Sniper's blinding acid  
attack on page 53 is pointed in the book as a Major Transform.  I would  
prefer to point it as Suppress Normal Sight, Uncontrolled on a continuing  
charge.  Normal sight could be bought as a 30-pt power, so you have your  
active point total right there. 
 
One of my main objections to Transform is that the 5-point variety is  
almost useless in terms of game effect, the 10-point is very limited, and  
the 15-point variety is absolutely unlimited.  This is too steep a curve. 
 
In the case of limb loss and serious maiming, I simply don't see any  
option that is any better than Transform.  If the character has Extra  
Limbs, then one could Suppress or Drain that power, but most characters  
do not, and I disagree with the Drain BODY concept for the reasons above  
stated, so I am left with Major Transform as the least of evils. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca> 
From: "Vance Scott" <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca> 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 05:32:22 -500 
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters? 
Reply-to: vances@sympatico.ca 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Priority: normal 
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X-UID: 16 
 
> Hello; 
>     In my quest for info on Speedsters I have one more question. 
>  
> Are they any Speedsters published in any Champions books. So far I've 
> been unable to find any. 
>  
> Any edition of the game will do. 
 
There are two speedsters in Champions of the North. Gazelle and  
Lightspeed they are enemies. Gazelle is a member of the Sentinels the  
offical canadian hero team, and lightspeed is her personal enemy. 
 
Gazelle's costume is quite smart looking, in my opinion. 
 
Vance Scott 
 
Vanquisher of all foes 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:45:38 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 146 
 
>	Much as I just told you to hold back the spam ( :) ); I'd 
>love it if you used us for market reseach into what would make good 
>future products. 
 
I'm going to have to agree with this myself.  But I'll take it further than  
that, you are more than welcome to send me ads provided you also carrying on  
normal conversation and answer questions too.  I appreciate how you have  
entered the mailing list.  From what I can tell, you have done a great job  
in answering every e-mail you could.  Thanks for that.   
 
>	Remember for every one of us in here, there is often a whole 
>gaming group out there that we GM or talk with. So word from here 
>does spread pretty far at times. 
 
At times I know I've been part of up to three different gaming groups at one  
time.  When Fuzion came out, I showed the download to over 15 players within  
about two weeks.  So yeah, I guess this list does spread pretty far.  Take  
it easy and talk at you later. 
 
 
Sparx 
 
===================================================== 
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children. 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:24:50 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight (Was Re: CHAR: Stanis Grackleflint) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 147 
 
 
 
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Robert A. West wrote: 
 
> Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
> >  
> > On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Robert A. West wrote: 
> >  
> > > Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
> > > > 
> > > > As far as the wooshing goes, a glider might be a good example to consider. 
>  
> > > 
> > > And, of course, Gliding normally costs no END, therefore is IPE by 
> > > default.  My word!  Do you think that this may have been intentional? 
> > > ;-) 
> > > 
> >  
> > Actually, no. Powered flight wouldn't be the determining factor for a 
> > wooshing noise, as I understand it.  
>  
> Actually, yes.  First of all, the "wooshing" noise that most people seem  
> to be thinking of from real life are the engines.  In WW2, gliders were  
> used several times with relative or complete surprise: consider the  
> German assault on Belgium.  That is a pretty good argument for IPE, IMHO. 
>  
 
We seem to be misunderstanding one another here. I was considering the 
"wooshing" issue in terms of realistic physics, entirely separate from the 
benefits of IPE. There are two questions here - should a "force of will" 
flyer be silent, and should they have to pay for that silence? 
 
If the noise comes from the engines, as you say, then I'd say a "force of 
will" flyer *should* be silent. It isn't the fact that the flight is 
powered that makes the noise, it's the fact that the power source could be 
noisy. (Force of will is presumably silent.) That was my point, and I 
think we might actually agree here. 
 
> > It seems to me that size and speed are the determining factors for 
> > whooshing. Why should a character Flying at 10" per phase make any more 
> > noise than a character Gliding at 10", if his thrust is silent? 
>  
> If his thrust is silent, then he has IPE, or sound is not one of the  
> three sense groups.  I don't think that IPE need make passing  
> through the air completely silent at close range, any more than having an  
> IPE attack makes the character's breathing silent, especially if the  
> character is pushing several phases in a row. 
>  
 
You answered my physics question with the Hero rules. I know what the 
rules difference between Flight and Gliding is, though I've mentioned that 
I give Flight for free what many people consider IPE. My question is: If a 
flying character's power source is silent, is there any logical reason why 
that character should make any more noise than a Gliding character? If you 
choose to charge silent flyers for IPE, fine. I'm just wondering whether 
it's logical to buy (or have granted) IPE for typical comic book flyers. I 
believe it is. 
 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:26:58 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: evil henchman's guide (fwd) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:10 AM 12/10/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>      8. As tempting as it may be, never try to ravish the Evil Overlord's 
>         beautiful-but-wicked daughter. She can probably mop the floor with 
>         you. Daddy will *not* try to stop her. 
 
Addendum for lieutenants: if the Evil Overlord's beautiful-but-wicked 
daughter offers (*cough*) benefits in return for helping her overthrow 
Daddy, tell her you're a eunuch. She can't keep a secret to save her life, 
and no one will believe you if you rat. 
 
>      9. Learn where the trap door is in the Evil Overlord's audience 
>         chamber. Avoid standing there, especially when bad news is brought 
>         to the Evil Overlord. 
 
Better yet, always hand off messaging to lesser-ranked personnel if you can. 
 
>     10. While the Evil Overlord is gloating over his anticipated success 
>         in the venture he is about to launch, it is considered impolite to 
>         ask "And if you fail?" You probably won't be flogged, maimed, or 
>         killed for your temerity, but why risk it? 
 
Also, don't join in his evil laughter until someone else does.  If he's 
going to get annoyed, he'll take it out on the first one to start. 
 
>     16. If you surrender to the Hero, don't try to stab him when his back 
>         is turned; the Sidekick will get you first. 
 
Also, don't backstab the Sidekick or try to take him hostage.  If the Hero 
hesitates to attack, it's because the Sidekick is capable of kicking your 
butt, and if the Sidekick can't whup you the Hero won't bother hesitating. 
 
>     17. When mutilating cattle, avoid the ones with testicles. 
 
Yes, but what if those are the bits you NEED? :] 
 
>     13. Rather than simply being an attractive stage prop, make sure you 
>         know every detail of the running of the Evil Empire, so that if 
>         anything unpleasant happens to Daddy, you will be able to take 
>         over with minimal fuss. Then make sure that something  
>         unpleasant happens to Daddy. 
 
Whoops -- planted advice, probably from a heroic spy.  Don't TRY to make 
something unpleasant to Daddy -- after all, you can't keep a secret to save 
your life, and in this case that's literal. 
 
== 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:27:01 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:04 PM 12/10/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Not true.  I like the "Lightning Reflexes" pseudo-talent.  It is much 
>cleaner than allowing the abort element on strike maneuver bases. 
 
It's also a lot cleaner than buying DEX with limitations; anything that 
saves space on a character sheet is fine by me. :] 
 
>I find most of his other mechanics questionable at best.  They frequently 
>work okay within extremely limited sets of circumstances, but fail 
>spectacularly in the general.  I also have problems with his frequent use 
>of strangely limited powers to duplicate the effects of extant skills. 
 
Yes, the "Xd6 Power, Requires Skill Roll, Exactly Duplicates Effects Of That 
Skill (-1)" construction ranks in at about 50% of his wonky constructions. 
I get the feeling that he somehow sees all skills as being useless for 
anything but activation rolls, that to actually DO anything you have to buy 
Powers. (Lord knows what his heroic campaigns look like, if he runs any). 
 
A related glitch is his tendency to define things like stances and feints, 
which normal people can do in even the most realistic campaigns, as Powers. 
This is especially annoying with the latter, where he gives TWO 
Power-oriented options for handling something that's a basic element of all 
combat (I fake a punch on the playground, I'm feinting.) 
 
Another 40% can be classed as "Xd6 Power, Doesn't Possess The Power (-1)", 
that Invisibility, "Can still be seen -1" bit to eliminate line of sight. 
(Steve, Invisibility makes you "immune to LOS" as a /side effect/ of NOT 
being seen -- the two elements are indivisible ...) 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:27:03 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:05 PM 12/10/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>>         2) There's now a "Disable" element available which doesn't cost 
>>         anything, and improves your chances of impairing or disabling 
>>         the target.  It struck me as possibly being broken, since the 
>>         supposed "balancing limits" didn't seem all that limiting (for 
>>         example, it's required to be aimed at a specific hit location, 
>>         but it doesn't take any OCV penatly for a called shot). 
> 
>	O.K.  Here's one I agreed with it's importance but quickly decided 
>not to allow in my campaigns.  Too potentially unbalancing.  But, I can 
>see some realistic and MA campaigns where this could be usefull. 
 
I'd like to clarify: I did NOT think this was a bad /mechanic/, I just 
thought he was insane to give it away for no extra points.  A bone-breaking 
or joint-spraining maneuver should be at least a LITTLE more expensive than 
just striking someone outright. 
 
>>         training (aforementioned archery) simply does not break up 
>>         neatly into maneuvers like hand-to-hand fighting styles, so 
>>         this just doesn't feel right. I'd probably stick with Combat 
>>         Levels and called shots. 
> 
>	Well, the one thing I like is the nice ranged trips and disarms. 
 
We already had ranged disarms (look under "Focus"), and as for ranged trips 
-- I think the best one is going to do trying to trip someone with a bow is 
to shoot them in the leg and hope for a disabling result. Color me skeptical. :] 
 
>>         missing.  Some of these new martial arts are so thinly 
>>         described, there's little point in including them; on the 
>>         other hand, the section on Pentjak Silat is so broad as to 
>>         make it a competitor in importance for Kung Fu. 
> 
>	I'll take all the MA styles I can, even if thinly described.  If I 
>want to, I can get more info but it's always great to have choices for 
>your players. 
 
If I have to go running to the library for information already, it's only a 
smidgen more effort to put the style together myself.  This isn't Palladium 
-- martial arts don't require a heck of a lot of work to build, especially 
if you're just putting together the pre-done maneuvers like "Martial 
Strike".  I REALLY think Long would have been doing the HERO market a favor 
by, say, dropping half of his fictional styles in favor of a little more 
detail on the flavor and appearance of the real-life styles.  Knowing the 
game mechanics of Than Vo Dao or Re-Efi Areh Ehsee does me little to no good 
without that material -- if I can't describe to my players how an NPC with 
this style is moving and fighting, I can't really get effective use out of 
that art. 
 
>	I was chuckly alot over all this.  Very funny and effectively 
>poking fun at some of the MA movie genre.  Also some useful stuff for 
>villian organizations or heroic getaways. 
 
I will repeat the ancient mantra of the dinner table: once is funny, twice 
is silly, three times is a spanking.  By my count, Long has 11 spankings 
coming (I'm giving him buys on the Paths of the 7 Ghost Sisters and the Way 
of the Two Brothers). 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:27:07 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:59 AM 12/10/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>> And by the same token, can I dismiss your opinions just by "warning" 
>> everyone that you have some very strong prejudices FOR Mr. Long?   
> 
> Hey.  Actually, I do like what he's done for the system.  I think 
> his contributions can be ranked only behind Allston's. 
 
In magnitude, yes, but only as an absolute value calculation. :] 
 
>	Oh, agreed.  He's always sure to have the same arguments and same 
>points, but he supports them well.  He's our Hero Fundamentalist voice. 
 
Hey, we need at least one.  Most of the time, the innocent novice you 
brought up (in the portion I clipped :] ) will be asking "How do you do X?", 
looking for some "correct"/"official"/"canon" answer.  There are really only 
two stances which bear this seal of authority: 
        1) The "do what you want, it's your campaign" response.  Most of 
        the people I know take this as a cop-out, even given that it's  
        now Hero Games corporate policy. 
 
        2) The exact, by-the-book, "fundamentalist" answer.  That's all 
        Rat (or, for that matter, me, really) does when he responds -- 
        he gives what he thinks is the best answer possible taken from 
        the book. 
 
> 	Hmmm.  I rather like this approach, actually.  It seems to fit 
>with Rat's "god has spoken" approach to anything revolving around Linked 
>or Steve Long. 
 
As opposed to your own "Long has spoken" approach? :] 
 
>	Not in all cases.  Some are perfectly "Fundy" but still raise 
>Rat's ire.  I think some of it is personal.  Rat doesn't want to use a 
>Long construction. 
 
Depends on which construction.  Some of Long's constructions are simply 
broken.  Others are, on paper, legal but unnecessary (mostly the ones that 
duplicate skill effects -- you're paying points for something that a 
competent GM would allow the normal skill to do). 
 
>	Long just is more liberal with his rules than Rat is, not a 
>problem on my end.  The rules are there to enable any possible 
>construction, not to hinder construction. 
 
As I've mentioned before (in a discussion on Dark Champions), the problem is 
not HOW liberal Long is, but WHEN.  He resorts to "liberal" (or, as Sean 
Fannon might put it, "interesting") constructions that bend or even outright 
break the BBB rules WHEN HE DIDN'T HAVE TO.  I know you think the majority 
of these cases amount to his intent to somehow simulate the genre better, 
but if he really thinks the 
 
>	Actually, I find it one of my most useful books.  More so even 
>than UMA.  UMA vs Ninja Hero, you could get by with NH.  UM vs well, maybe 
>Mystic Masters, well, no contest.  UM brings up and clarifies a lot of 
>areas of under explained and under exampled rules.  Does a good job too. 
>It also, for the record, makes most Mental Powers *less* effective with 
>its "different classes of minds" sections. 
 
The different class bit was a good thing.  I also liked the mentalist-only 
skills (Veil, Cloak, and Facade).  But really, GURPS Psionics is a superior 
supplement -- FOR HERO -- in terms of campaign material and ideas, and 
there's a LOT of Long's bad habits at work again (the duplicate effects of 
Psych Lims on Mind Control, the unnecessary changes to Mind Scan, and the 
execrable Desolid and Invisibility constructions). 
 
On the other hand, as I've mentioned before, the bit where the book claims 
to be a universal gaming supplement rather than a HERO sourcebook is a laugh 
and a half. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:27:10 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:30 PM 12/10/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
> And that is EXACTLY what we are aiming to do. As another example, the 
> sample PC hero team (The Justice Foundation) are known in the campaign 
> setting as the "second string" team. Why? Because the MAIN hero team in 
> the city are YOUR heroes. 
> 
> That's right. Your PCs are the top dog heroes in the city, and every one 
> of our books is going to make that assumption. So, no, we will NOT be 
> featuring the Justice Foundation heroes on every single book cover! <LOL> 
 
THANK YOU! THANK YOU! Heaven and the Christmastime be praised! 
 
Seriously, this was always something that annoyed me about previous 4E 
products, where they advanced the timeline on their own schedule and assumed 
that the Champions (or whatever other hero group the author liked best) have 
already run through all their modules.  The more books get published, the 
further "behind" your campaign becomes, diverging further and further from 
the universe until you're rewriting every supplement you buy practically 
from scratch.   
 
(For example, wasn't it a little late to tell us in =Normals Unbound= who 
Mechanon's creator "really" was?  Don't they think all us GM's who have been 
using him since we first bought our Champs books have already worked that 
out ourselves?) 
 
A certain level of touch-up work is going to be necessary for any product, 
but it's definitely a show of good faith to try to leave room in your 
campaign material for the characters that the book is, in theory, being 
purchased FOR.  Glad to see you're on the right track! 
 
== 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:27:12 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: San Angelo (Re: Greetings) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:30 PM 12/10/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
>  So please, read it before you start spreading those comments that make 
> other uninformed readers go "Screw that. I'm not wasting my money if I 
> can't play faeries!" 
 
Screw that! I'm not wasting my money if it lets some nut play faeries! 
 
(Sorry -- had to say it. ;]) 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:28:26 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: San Angelo (Re: Greetings) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:30 PM 12/10/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
>  So please, read it before you start spreading those comments that make 
> other uninformed readers go "Screw that. I'm not wasting my money if I 
> can't play faeries!" 
 
Screw that! I'm not wasting my money if it lets some nut play faeries! 
 
(Sorry -- had to say it. ;]) 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:28:27 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:28 PM 12/10/97, qts wrote: 
>On Mon, 08 Dec 1997 16:03:46 -0500, Urklore The Iron wrote: 
> 
>>The link is a 1/2 disadvantage, but is it really? 
> 
>CA NE VA PAS RECOMMENCER! 
 
Oh, Tish -- that's FrencH! Mm-mm-mm-mm-mm ... 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:28:29 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:14 PM 12/10/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>	A great construction, BTW, as Desol is the only way in Hero to 
>make one totally impervious.  (To all but a select group of attacks) 
 
Except that Desolid doesn't make you totally impervious to attacks.  It 
makes you INSUBSTANTIAL, and *that* makes you impervious to attacks of the 
wrong special effects. 
 
This is similar to the recent "non-shrinking Shrinking" thread.  Some people 
try to bypass the primary/"real" effect of a Power -- not the special 
effects, but the actual purpose of that power within the mechanics -- to get 
to the side effects.  The Size Powers are probably the best example of this, 
insofar as all they're really meant to do is alter your height & weight -- 
all of the PER and DCV modifications, et al., are the effects of the /size 
change/.  (Which is to say, ANYTHING that's twice the size of a human should 
be +2 to be seen and hit, whether it officially bought a "Growth" power or not). 
 
Another example is that silly "Invisibility to Sight Group, Can Be Seen" bit 
in the Ultimate Mentalist, which he presents as a way to become immune to 
mental powers by not falling within LOS.  The problem is, if you can be 
seen, then BY DEFINITION you are within line-of-sight.  Trying to eat your 
cake and have it, too, is an insult to the GM's intellect. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:28:33 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:03 PM 12/10/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>There are no such things as "attack powers". 
 
I don't think the book backs you here, Rat. 
 
On page 155, they equate certain powers with attacks ("OTHER ATTACKS ... 
This Maneuver applies to any other attack not listed, like Energy Blast, 
Entangle, Flash, Power Drain, and so on").  I think it's safe to say that 
when anyone on this list refers to "attack power", they mean "any power 
which can be equated with the 'Other Attack' Maneuver for the purposes of 
combat".  In short, any Power that requires an Attack Roll. 
 
The phrase "attack power" is like the phrase "CON Stunned" -- it may not be 
something direct from the rulebook, but chances are you understood what the 
speaker meant by it, so complaining about it is the equivalent of a spelling 
flame. 
 
>It is Segment 12, the start of combat.  I want to fly up near you and tag 
>you with my Energy Blast.  At the start of my action phase I activate my 
>Flight and my Force Field (just in case).  I use my first half-phase action 
>to move.  I activate my Energy Blast between my first and second half-phase 
>actions as a 0-phase action.  I use my second half-phase action to attack 
>you with my Energy Blast. 
 
Nope.  The problem is, Energy Blast requires more than a 0-Phase action to 
activate.  It requires a 0-Phase action AND AN ATTACK ROLL to activate.  You 
can't use EB without the attack roll, and making the attack roll ends your 
phase.  You don't activate EB with a 0-Phase action and then use it in an 
attack -- IT IS THE ATTACK.   
 
Qv. p. 140, ACTION PHASES: "Any attack action such as Mind Control, Energy 
Blast, or Punch takes a half Phase ...".  Once more, Power == action.  There 
is no use w/o attack, no activation without use. 
 
>A slight modification: instead of just activating my Energy Blast between 
>my two half-phase actions, I want to activate my Flash as well.  No 
>problem: activation of a power is a 0-phase action, and I may perform as 
>many as I wish at that point during my action phase.  I have not made an 
>attack action, yet, because my second half-phase action has not began. 
 
But whichever power you activate first automatically invokes the attack roll 
and half-phase action at the instant you turn it on.  Use == Attack, 
Activation == Use. 
 
>So now a question: if I can use both my Flight and Force Field together 
>during my first half-phase action, and if I can use my Force Field and 
>Energy Blast together during my second half-phase action, where in the BBB 
>does it prohibit me from using my Force Field, Energy Blast and Flash 
>together during my second half-phase action?  No rhetoric, please.  I am 
>using the BBB as the canonical reference to support my position; please 
>have the courtesy to do the same. 
 
No rhetoric here -- I've quoted enough for you to get the idea.  You can use 
Flight and Force Field freely because they do not require attack rolls to use. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:35:00 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 148 
 
>I have just acquired a copy of Ninja Hero, and I was wondering what the 
>major differences between it and TUMA are.  Mostly, is TUMA worth getting 
>if I have NH?  (I suspect it is.)  How much of a rewrite am I going to have 
>to do to the characters that I am rewriting now? 
 
I had this same question a while back when I bought Ninja Hero.  You are  
going to get a lot of opinions here, that is why I love this list.  A pool  
of information, at the same time though, too much info can lead to  
indecision.  My own opinion here would be this.  If you like Ninja Hero, if  
you run a Martial Arts / Martial Arts Super Campaign, get TUMA.  It won't  
hurt.  You won't have to do major overhauls to any Ninja Hero Character,  
though you might want to.  I myself find that most Champions Books have  
something I can use out of them.  And rules that I don't like or that are  
unbalancing, well as the GM you can throw them out, or your GM can always  
tell you no.  Then find some other way to build a similar effect.  Reading  
through this thread I noticed that the Ranged Martial Arts were brought up.   
Truthfully, that was the first thing I used out of the book for a Fantasy  
Hero character no less.  I told the GM I wanted to make an Archer for his  
game when he was asking for concepts and he directed me to using them  
straight from TUMA instead of making my own "trick" shots up.  That way he  
knew what I would have, what it would do, etc.  Sure, I could have made them  
up and he would have allowed it, but we both felt it would be easier on both  
of us this way.  Just my brief experience with TUMA I thought I'd share.  As  
I said, the list is full of opinions :)  Take it easy and talk at you later. 
 
 
Sparx 
 
===================================================== 
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children. 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:50:26 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites?? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 150 
 
 
 
On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Case wrote: 
 
>  
>  Problem (a): 
>      'Aperion Negative' is a character I created who has the ability to 
> travel along electrical current. While in this energy form, he can (a) use 
> all of his electronic-based skills, like computer programming (like being in 
> cyberspace), security systems, etc (b) travel FTL, (c) he can even 'jump' 
> into a focus if someone hits him with an energy beam or flash.  When you 
> think about it, this is an incredibly powerful ability!  But I really think 
> I botched on how I bought the ability- I bought FTL with the -3/4 limitation 
> "only on energy currents". Anybody have any ideas how I can make him truly 
> 'street legal'? What's he missing? Shrinking? 
>  
 
An interesting set of problems, which I've dealt with before. 
 
For (c), I'd buy Desolidification. If he can only maintain the energy 
state while in a conductor, put a limitation on it. 
 
For (b), I would built it as FTL, with the "only on energy currents" 
limitation, and an advantage that it can work in an atmosphere. This 
advantage isn't exactly orthodox; I tend to make up advantages without the 
sanction of the rules. It should also be linked to Desolid. 
 
The alternative is to build it as a Teleport. Many people feel this is 
more legitimate, though I don't know why ignoring the description of 
teleport as travel between points without crossing the intervening space 
is any more legitimate than ignoring the restriction that FTL doesn't work 
in an atmosphere. 
 
Actually, I never liked that blanket ruling on FTL. The fact of the matter 
is that people do travel FTL (or at least lightspeed) within the 
atmosphere in comics, and a superhero game should have a mechanism for 
doing so. As your example indicates, it need not be unbalancing to game 
play. 
 
 
As for (a), I'd stick an "Affects Solid" advantage on the skills, 
since you'll have to use them while desolid. An Advantage on a Skill is 
yet another shaky rules construction, but it does the job for me. If you 
don't like that, you might try Telekinesis or Transform with Affects 
Solid, using the skills in conjunction. 
 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:50:31 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
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On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
>         3) There are rules for creating ranged martial arts styles 
>         (not "thunderpunching", but rather things like Zen archery). 
>         Struck me as a rather kneejerk set-up -- to the best of my 
>         knowledge, even the most "martial-arty" of ranged weapon  
>         training (aforementioned archery) simply does not break up  
>         neatly into maneuvers like hand-to-hand fighting styles, so 
>         this just doesn't feel right. I'd probably stick with Combat 
>         Levels and called shots. 
 
>From the moment I looked at them I felt that the 'Ranged Martial Arts' 
rules were really hokey.  I agree with Vox and Rat, creative use of CSLs 
can simulate these abilites much better. 
 
>         5) There is LOTS and LOTS of padding. (Does anyone else feel  
>         like using Dim Mak on S.L. just to keep him from making  
>         *another* fictional style where every d*** maneuver is "The 
>         {adjective}{move} of {Name}"?) 
 
I felt the sourcebook in the back was far to limited.  Too much space was 
wasted on useless fictional styles and design commentary.  I did like all 
the expanded Ninja material, including all the mythical ninja material (it 
helps that a close friend virtually wrote most of that for S.L.).  S.L. 
needed to supply a few characters, a bibliography and notes on oriental 
magic and genre conventions. 
 
As his naming conventions... S.L. obviously has *never* seen the proper 
source material.  No one says 'My Crushing Blow of Chin Pok will now 
destroy you!'; they say 'Now feel the might of my Thunder Palm 
Technique!'. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:06:12 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Any Published Champions Speedsters? 
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At 12:32 AM 12/10/97 -0600, Michael Nunn wrote: 
>At 05:32 AM 12/10/97 -500, Vance Scott wrote: 
>>> Hello; 
>>>     In my quest for info on Speedsters I have one more question. 
>>>  
>>> Are they any Speedsters published in any Champions books. So far I've 
>>> been unable to find any. 
> 
>Though not an offical product, The summer issue of Herozine had a Speedster, 
>named Torrent, she was a member of The DVT, a super villain team. 
> 
>While I haven't done so in the past, if anyone is interested I could start 
>posting some Herozine characters to the list. 
 
   I wouldn't mind that. 
--- 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:21:57 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites?? 
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At 02:02 AM 12/10/97 -0600, Michael Nunn wrote: 
>At 02:34 AM 12/10/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
>><< I bought FTL with the -3/4 limitation "only on energy currents". Anybody 
>>have any ideas how I can make him truly 'street legal'? What's he missing? 
>>Shrinking? >> 
>> 
>>  Actually, FTL cannot be used within the atmosphere, according to the BBB. 
>>Might I suggest using a form of Teleport, with the special effect/Limitation 
>>of "Only along electrical currents?" Just a thought. 
> 
>Another way, is linked desolidfication.  Whlie disolid you can use FTL in an 
>atmosphere, but FTL is so hard to calculate when you only go a short 
distance. 
>I would go with limited T-Port as well. 
 
   Actually, allowing FTL in atmosphere while Desolid is a "house rule" 
(one which I happen to use, BTW; in fact, I may have been the first to 
introduce it). 
   Within my own game, I'd use FTL, but for a published character I'd 
probably use the Teleport scheme. 
   An argument could also be made for Extra-Dimensional Movement (real 
world to "electronic world" and back). 
--- 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:23:22 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Invisible Flight 
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At 10:07 PM 12/9/97 -0800, Robert A. West wrote: 
>Stephen McGinness wrote: 
>>  
> 
>> these things. Perhaps when you have a power then if it is not invisible and 
>> you can't think of obvious special effects for all three senses then it 
>> means it is subject to being worked out by _common_ _sense_, e.g., an INT 
>> roll or something. 
> 
>Hmmm... "Common Sense" as a sense group!  I wonder what it would mean to  
>be invisible to common sense? 
 
   Automatic election to the office of Vice President of the United States. 
 
>Seriously, taking "miscellaneous minor effects" in place of a third sense  
>group seems practical, balancing, and within the spirit of the rules. 
 
   I agree here. 
--- 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:25:15 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 10:39 AM 12/9/97 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>At 02:48 PM 12/9/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>>Again, there is no official ruling. You are both right. 
> 
>In fact, to be more accurate, there's no such thing as an "official ruling" 
>in HERO.  Steve Peterson says: 
> 
>        "Our official position is that all rules are optional; each GM  
>        should decide for themselves what rules to use. The rules in  
>        the Hero System rulebook (which is included in Champions 4th 
>        Edition) cover most situations pretty well. However, we've  
>        presented many other rules in other books, either as variants 
>        or rules for other situations not covered in the basic rules. 
>        Whether or not those rules are used is up to the GM in each  
>        case; we don't think that our opinion should be held over that 
>        of an individual GM. Each GM should make their rule choices as  
>        they see fit, to make the game suit their own style, and their  
>        sense of what is fun. We tend to like most of the optional  
>        rules we've presented, otherwise we wouldn't have presented  
>        them.  But that doesn't mean we use those rules all of the  
>        time, or that all of us at Hero hold each of those rules in  
>        the same esteem. Opinions vary, and that's as it should be, or  
>        so we think." 
 
   So, is that the official ruling?   ;-] 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:31:59 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 11:32 PM 12/9/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>> It really doesn't matter whether you play this the other way around or not. 
>>  This is mostly a "points thingy" that makes the smaller Power cheaper. 
>>  When using this Power/Linked Power, _I_, the player choose the Power Level 
>> I want to use (assuming I didn't add a Limitation like "Beam Attack"). 
>>  What this means is that I could fire off an attack that does 12d6 EB/3d6 
>> Flash, one that does 12d6 EB/0d6 Flash, or 1d6 EB/3d6 Flash (maybe even 0d6 
>> EB/3d6 Flash, so long as 1 END is spent for the EB when using the Powers). 
> 
> Nooooooo! 
> 
> That really doesn't work.  Not at all. 
> 
> No matter which interpretation you use, which camp you side with, 
>running the limitation like that is just a plain old points crock. 
>Basically, you get a -1/2 on a power for absolutely no disadvantage, save 
>having to spend 1 END on another power for a 0 level.  This means there is 
>no reason not to take every power linked. 
 
   I can see where the original poster got this idea, though.  I think that 
older versions of Linked said that the Powers had to be used in proportion 
to each other, meaning that the 12d6 EB/3d6 Flash could be used at full 
power, or at 8d6 EB/2d6 Flash, or 6d6 EB/1 1/2d6 Flash, etc.  That text 
didn't carry over, so a strict reading of the 4th Ed Linked Limitation 
could be interpreted as above. 
 
> Hmmm.  Me and Gazza, one of the generals in the "yes you can" camp 
>came to this conclusion a year or so ago.  Wish he were here now to help 
>further this one aspect of the linked argument. 
> 
> Does anyone know how to get a hold of Gazza, BTW.  I miss his 
>commentary. 
 
   Ditto!  (He was also going to run a couple of the adventures from my 
website -- "Power Dreams" and "Arms Against the Dragon" -- and tell me how 
things went, and I always like concrete feedback on my material.) 
--- 
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:36:24 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified) 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: To Steven Brust Readers 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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>I've been writing up some info for the fantasy world of Steven Brust's 
>Vlad Taltos for a possible future campaign (And because it's one of my 
>favorite worlds). 
> 
>I'm curious to know, how would people write up sorcery from that world? 
>I've been debating VVP v. Multipower. 
 
Well, for Vlad, who is a 'poor' sorceror, use a Multipower. For someone like 
Aleria, a big wonking VPP is the way to go. 
 
>Since sorcery technically is just 
>drawing on power from the Orb and using it with a skill roll, VVP seems 
>like the best option, but for a fantasy game simulating the effects from 
>the book is very expensive. 
 
Oh yeah! 
 
>Teleports of a couple of hundred miles are 
>not uncommon, even for a less skilled sorcerer.  I'm tempted to resort to 
>house rules. 
 
Do it like this: FREAKING ENORMOUS VPP, Lots and Lots of UBO at Range (in 
the millions), Only by Citizens of the Empire (-1/4), Requires a Skill Roll 
(-1/2), Requires appropriate Spell Knowledge (-1/2), OIF - Orb of the Empire 
(-1/2). 
 
Then make people pay 1/10 the Real cost of a spell for the 'Knowledge' of a 
specific spell (sort of like a multipower slot). Basically, that's the 
mechanic for orb sorcery, everybody draws on the power of the Orb. Of 
course, that's really a 'plot device', but otherwise forget the 'Jhereg' 
books, b/c virtually everyone can pull thousand mile teleports, mind links 
with infallable mind scanning (only for mind links, does not target), and 
other things which cost grotesque amounts of points. 
 
Then there's Pre-Empire Sorcery, i.e. the manipulation of raw Chaos (can you 
say _Side Effects_?) 
 
>Witchcraft is a little easier, since it has alot of built in limitations 
>(Gestures, incant, extra time, spell components), and is so flexible it 
>almost has to be a VVP. 
 
Yup. Having a familiar should definitely add to the witch's skill roll. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:40:46 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 11:32 PM 12/9/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>I have just acquired a copy of Ninja Hero, and I was wondering what the 
>major differences between it and TUMA are.  Mostly, is TUMA worth getting 
>if I have NH?  (I suspect it is.)  How much of a rewrite am I going to have 
>to do to the characters that I am rewriting now? 
> 
>And did anyone see any major problems in NH that they fixed (either house 
>rules, or changes made in TUMA)? 
 
   Whether TUMA is worth getting if you already have NH depends on your 
needs.  I personally can't think of a lot of reasons to *not* get it (the 
only truly significant one being lack of cash flow). 
   TUMA includes several rules clarifications over NH, as well as about 
half again the number of available martial manuevers and around three times 
as many martial arts written up. 
   As for rewriting characters, the only significant change is the cost for 
a Choke Hold; it goes from 5 to 4.  This is because TUMA expands the Grab 
maneuver so that the default form Grabs two of the opponent's limbs by 
default, and a Choke Hold only Grabs one limb (the head, which is 
considered a limb for these purposes). 
   I can't think offhand of any problems I caught in NH. 
--- 
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:46:34 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
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At 07:46 PM 12/10/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>VL> You can't use EB without the attack roll, 
> 
>Sure you can.  Fire it in the air as part of a presence attack.  It falls 
>under "demonstration of a power". 
 
Sounds good, except that it doesn't fit the description of the power.  p. 
65: "A character with this Standard Power can attack at range.  To use an 
Energy Blast, the character states his target and makes an Attack Roll." 
Seems pretty straightforward -- a use of energy blast IS an attack, and 
requires an Attack Roll.   
 
Really, PRE attacks are inherently wonky anyhow.  After all, the example of 
Howler on p. 171 has her making a REAL ATTACK (nailing an agent), THEN 
making the PRE attack.  Strictly speaking, this should be illegal whether 
she's using a Power or not, yes/no?  
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
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   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:46:36 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 07:47 PM 12/10/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>> The problems with this are so numerous that anyone with any understanding 
>>> of the mechanics should see them. 
> 
>TRG> 	No, tell me.  I don't see them.  It seems to work fine here. 
> 
>Case in point. 
 
Cold, Rat.  Very, very cold. :] 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:46:38 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Computer Questions 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 07:59 PM 12/10/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>	On a chart labeled General Computer Information in Champions it  
>states: 
>	Normal Computers have: 
>	... 
>	3)  No Psychological Disadvantages 
> 
>	Under the section 'Normal Computers,' however, it states: 
>	...  They cannot have Disadvantages. 
> 
>	In the only other Champions book I have acquired, 'Underworld Enemies,' 
>the write up includes the following for a Normal Computer known as  
>'The Gallows' (pg. 44): 
>	Disadvantages 
>   20 | Physical Limitation: Must obey creator's orders 
>   20 | Physical Limitation: Computer 
>   20 | Distinctive Features: Computer (Not Conc, Major Reaction) 
>   10 | DNPC: Creator (As Powerful), 14- 
 
The BBB "trumps" supplements in cases like these, unless the supplement in 
question is some kind of official errata source (like occasionally got 
printed in Adventurer's Clubs). 
 
If you look at the case above, this is just a powergamer/munchkin creation 
from square one.  The first three Disadvantages are already inherent in 
being a computer, and the last one is invalid -- computers are purchased as 
Followers of characters, and in any case are not real characters.  A non-AI 
has no real mind, and therefore can't give a damn about anyone enough to 
HAVE a DNPC. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:56:26 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 01:56 AM 12/10/97 -0800, Robert A. West wrote: 
>More to the point, doesn't your own FAQ quote Steve Peterson as follows? 
> http://www.spacetec.com/~drg/hero/faq.html 
> 
>Q:  How many attacks can you make in a single Phase? 
>   
>A:  You may make only a single attack action during a Phase. You may 
>    activate as many attack powers as you have time, Endurance, and 
>    framework point allocations to activate, but you may still only make 
>    one attack action. 
> 
>This seems to clearly put paid to the idea of a "Linkable" advantage,  
>although it is not the way that I had been running things prior to  
>reading this.  If my tank has a 120mm gun and a coaxial machine gun, I  
>can fire either or both, provided that I am using the same attack action,  
>attack roll and attack options for both.  If I want to ensure that the  
>two fire only together, then I can take the smaller power as linked and  
>save some points, while wasting ammo. 
 
   I'm not sure how this will affect this part of the GLD, but in TUSV I 
will be reviving the old "Gangfire" option from Robot Warriors, in which a 
vehicle can fire off multiple weapons at once (at an OCV penalty, of 
course). 
--- 
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:10:54 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: evil henchman's guide (fwd) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Time for some levity. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
---------- Forwarded message ---------- 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:03:29 -0500 (EST) 
From: David Armoza <armoza@ait.nrl.navy.mil> 
To: weasel-patrol@otd.com 
Subject: evil henchman's guide 
 
The following is much in line with those lists we saw earlier about flunkies 
to evil overlords, but it expands on it quite nicely.  I especially liked 
the inclusion of the religious element.  Enjoy :) 
 
david 
 
 
Originally from the written sf newsgroup by 
   John & Linda VanSickle <vansickl@erols.com> 
 
 
The Evil Henchman's Guide 
 
   Recently, the Society of Evil Overlords has noticed a regrettable 
decline in the availability and quality of fanatical henchmen, devoted 
worshippers, and loyal infantry. We wish to correct this growing problem  
by submitting the following general guidelines for Evil Henchmen. 
 
   DISCLAIMER:  The use of masculine/feminine pronouns and assignment of 
gender roles is not intended to preclude a reversal of gender roles. It  
is, however, intended to offend those who think that nuclear missiles are 
deployed because of their phallic appearance. Nyah. 
 
  I. General tips for henchmen of all varieties: 
 
      1. Avoid getting sent to rough up the hero(es). Ransacking hotel 
         rooms is probably safe, but going 'round to beat up the good guys 
         is a sure ticket to the bottom of the Thames.  Remember, however, 
         that all Heroes get roughed up at least once, so if this has never 
         happened to the Hero, go for it! 
 
      2. When the hero or his sidekicks are at your mercy, don't stop to 
         gloat. 
 
      3. If you can't resist gloating, don't boast about the reward you 
         expect to receive from your master for bringing them in or killing 
         them off. 
 
      4. If you gloat and boast, don't be surprised if a comrade of the 
         person you have at your mercy jumps you from behind while you're 
         distracted with your boasting. 
 
      5. If you fail to complete your mission, skip town. Returning to the 
         Evil Overlord to report on your failure will usually get you killed. 
 
      6. Avoid killing people not actively involved in the rebellion; the 
         Evil Overlord has enough enemies as it is. Especially don't kill 
         relatives, significant others, or best friends of the hero. 
         Normally after the Evil Overlord is overthrown, henchmen can get 
         off with just a little community service time, but if you off the 
         Hero's loved ones, he'll make lasagna out of you. 
 
      7. Unless the Evil Overlord pays extra for indiscriminate slaughter, 
         avoid it. Why should you give your services away for free? 
 
      8. As tempting as it may be, never try to ravish the Evil Overlord's 
         beautiful-but-wicked daughter. She can probably mop the floor with 
         you. Daddy will *not* try to stop her. 
 
      9. Learn where the trap door is in the Evil Overlord's audience 
         chamber. Avoid standing there, especially when bad news is brought 
         to the Evil Overlord. 
 
     10. While the Evil Overlord is gloating over his anticipated success 
         in the venture he is about to launch, it is considered impolite to 
         ask "And if you fail?" You probably won't be flogged, maimed, or 
         killed for your temerity, but why risk it? 
 
     11. As soon as the evil lord has the hero in his power, seek the 
         nearest available escape route. The fewmets are about to hit the 
         windmill. 
 
     12. Learn to distinguish Heroes from Sidekicks. Heroes are usually 
         taller and more somber, while Sidekicks dress with more flair and 
         tell more jokes. Taking on the Hero when you only have enough 
         manpower/firepower to take on the Sidekick will earn you an all- 
         expenses-paid trip on Stygian Cruise Lines. 
 
     13. Never allow yourself to be provoked into doing anything stupid by 
         insults from the Hero or Sidekicks. 
 
     14. No matter how attractive the captured heroine is or how seductively 
         she bats her eyes, she really does not want to sleep with you. Do 
         not unlock the cell door. 
 
     15. If the heroes give you a chance to surrender or flee, take it. 
 
     16. If you surrender to the Hero, don't try to stab him when his back 
         is turned; the Sidekick will get you first. 
 
     17. If the seemingly helpless person you have just cornered is 
         confident and unafraid despite being outnumbered and surrounded, 
         you have encountered a Hero in disguise.  Run while you still can. 
 
     18. If the Hero you are sent after dresses entirely in black, he is 
         even more dangerous than the Evil Overlord suspects; double all 
         requisitions for men and firepower. 
 
     19. Practice your "accidental" sword/gun dropping technique. It's the 
         only thing that can save you when the hero is winning. 
 
 II. Guidelines for Legion of Doom troops: 
 
      1. Before performing guard duty, familiarize yourself with the sound 
         of a tossed pebble, and learn to avoid being distracted by it. 
 
      2. When performing guard duty, do not stare continually in one 
         direction, but take a moment now and then to look around. 
 
      3. When you are fighting intruders, do not fight them quietly, but 
         yell "Intruder!" while you still have breath. 
 
      4. When issued armor or uniforms that contrast with the service 
         environment, respectfully inquire after more sensibly-colored 
         attire. 
 
      5. Get plenty of firearms practice. 
 
      6. Don't attack the hero alone or in pairs. The Evil Overlord hired a 
         million of you for a reason. 
 
      7. Never be the first one to charge the hero. 
 
      8. Exercise care in the abuse of oppressed peoples. Many farm 
         implements make effective weapons in the hands of a skilled 
         opponent. Some of those little old men can teach you a thing or two 
         about hand-to-hand, too. 
 
III. Tips for evil cult members: 
 
      1. Pick one faith and stay with it. Dilettantism is the mark of an 
         amateur. 
 
      2. Familiarize yourself with the specifications for sacrificial 
         victims, and ensure that unacceptable substitutes cannot be 
         unexpectedly introduced into the ceremony. If the penalty for 
         not-to-specs work is death and/or mutilation, consider working 
         for a more fault-tolerant deity. 
 
      3. Avoid needless embarrassment. Practice the correct pronunciation 
         of your deity's name in the privacy of your own room before 
         chanting it in public. Flash cards are often helpful. 
 
      4. Before agreeing to impregnation by a supernatural being, investigate 
         the survival rate of the other women who have undergone the 
         procedure. 
 
      5. Never invoke anything bigger than your head. 
 
      6. Eschew deities whose followers are all young; such faith groups 
         usually employ an unpleasant retirement procedure. 
 
      7. Avoid all cabalistic jewelry over ten pounds in weight--it attracts 
         unwelcome attention from tourists, policemen, various supernatural 
         creatures, and can be downright dangerous during thunderstorms. Its 
         jingling also tends to warn the hero of your approach.  It also 
         makes you resemble Mr. T, and nobody wants to join a religion he 
         belongs to. 
 
      8. Citronella candles may not be used in rituals. I cannot stress this 
         enough. Pastel colored candles in the shape of cute animals are 
         like direct sunlight to the Powers of Darkness. 
 
      9. If the spirit contacted during a seance begins offering financial 
         advice, you're dealing with a con artist, and not a genuine medium. 
 
     10. Always keep your kit with you: candles, chalk, incense, silver 
         knife, Thuggee cord, service revolver, garlic, Yellow Sign, cab 
         fare, and change. 
 
     11. Flourescent lighting is very annoying to most netherworldly 
         creatures. 
 
     12. When the Black Mass goes awry, stay away from the Evil Priest. 
         Enraged demons always go for the pompous. 
 
     13. Followers who have a speech impediment should be excused from 
         speaking parts in any and all ceremonies. The mispronunciation  
         of the deity's name can have catastrophic effects. 
 
     14. Plan ahead by selecting ceremonial robes that are easy to run in 
         while still affording ample concealment. 
 
     15. If the ritual site has some strange powder sprinkled around that 
         wasn't there the last time, postpone all ceremonies until the site 
         is verified. 
 
     16. When a religious artifact begins emitting light, CLOSE YOUR EYES. 
         Thousands of cult members could be saved every year if they 
         followed this simple safety tip. 
 
     17. When mutilating cattle, avoid the ones with testicles. 
 
     18. During ritual sacrificing, taking bits home for later is now 
         generally considered "bad form." 
 
     19. Blood tests are now required for all sacrificial victims before the 
         ritual. The effects of HIV+ offerings on the average malefic deity 
         have never been witnessed by anyone living, or even intact. 
 
     20. Contrary to historical belief, drugs and invocations do not mix. 
         When the ritual goes awry, it is vitally necessary to be able to 
         discern between the gibbering monstrosity to pump full of silver 
         bullets and the gibbering monstrosity that will fade away after a 
         few hours, some B complex, and a good hot bath. 
 
     21. Never play strip Tarot. 
 
     22. Piety and belief are powerful things, and few forces in nature, can 
         stand against one who is true to his faith, his god/goddess, and 
         the deal made in exchange for the soul.  However, it is also true 
         that gods tend to side with the heaviest artillery, so be prepared 
         to change sides at the drop of a hat. 
 
     23. For those situations where a fresh, living, sacrifice is not 
         available, the lower ranks of demons can be fooled by microwaving 
         a previously frozen chunk of ex-victim and cleverly jiggling it. 
         However, a mock victim sculpted from SPAM is right out. 
 
 IV. Tips for the Evil Overlord's Wicked but Beautiful Daughter: 
 
      1. Find out all those lovely little family secrets so that the Hero 
         can never spring them on you. 
 
      2. Do not fall in love with the Hero. 
 
      3. If you do fall in love with the Hero, and decide to help him, do 
         not declare your intentions to Daddy. Daddy will clap you in 
         irons, pending your execution. The Hero will rescue you, but 
         having to be rescued is demeaning. 
 
      4. If the Hero takes you to his secret base, and once there tells all 
         about his plans, smile sweetly, leave, and find another man; this 
         Hero is obviously so stupid he will not be around for very long. 
 
      5. If any of Daddy's Evil Henchmen try to make a move on you, at 
         least maim them. While the encounter might be interesting, it 
         would set a bad precedent. 
 
      6. If you do fall in love with the Hero, and want him to love you 
         in return, do not use a drug concocted by a wizened old lady living 
         on the top of a mountain. If the hero is not blind, your natural 
         charms will be sufficient to win him over. If he does not, or 
         prefers the One True Love, then he obviously has rotten taste; find 
         someone better. 
 
      7. Do not wear dresses with high, fan-like collars. Keep your clothing 
         to close-fitting, simple little numbers that allow you to turn your 
         head to see what is behind you. If you have to wear a dress with 
         such a collar, there is an arcane device called a "mirror" that 
         allows you to see behind yourself. 
 
      8. Have some engineers install a hidden exit from the room where Daddy 
         imprisoned Mommy for the rest of her days after she displeased him. 
 
      9. Do not mistreat the populace. Let Daddy be the one to make enemies 
         of all the Heroes in the land. 
 
     10. If you have siblings, do not trust them. They'll only take advantage 
         of you. Of course if they're stupid enough to trust you, take 
         advantage of them. 
 
     11. If any of your siblings try to enlist your aid to overthrow Daddy, 
         smile, promise to think it over, and then turn them in. They're 
         either stupid (in which case the plot would certainly fail and 
         you'll all get caught), setting you up (in which case not turning 
         them in is a very bad idea), or they've turned Good (in which case 
         life under the new regime would be boring). 
 
     12. Laugh at all of the Sidekick's jokes, no matter how lame they are. 
         That way when you pretend to fall for him he will be more easily 
         fooled. 
 
     13. Rather than simply being an attractive stage prop, make sure you 
         know every detail of the running of the Evil Empire, so that if 
         anything unpleasant happens to Daddy, you will be able to take over 
         with minimal fuss. Then make sure that something unpleasant happens 
         to Daddy. 
 
     14. If you cannot decided between sleeping with the Hero and slowly 
         roasting him alive, postpone dealing with him until you have 
         clarified your emotions. 
 
** David Armoza                           *  email armoza@ait.nrl.navy.mil  ** 
** Advanced Information Technology        *  PN #: (202)-767-3961           ** 
** Naval Research Laboratory - Code 5585  *  FAX#: (202)-404-1189           ** 
** Washington, DC 20375-5337              *  #include <stnd.disclaimer>     ** 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 10 Dec 1997 11:45:30 -0500 
Lines: 42 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 161 
 
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
TRG> 	Actually, this is only one of what were originally two 
TRG> (conflicting) answers.  One somehow disappeared into the mists.  Hmmm. 
 
Actually, at first there was only one answer.  Then Vox managed to get 
Steve to make a 100% contradictory ruling. 
 
The current version of the FAQ contains neither ruling, only Steve's last 
words on the subject. 
 
TRG> 	And actually, it's not as clear as it may seem.  You may activate 
TRG> the powers, but it does say only one attack (action).  Is that to be 
TRG> read only one attack power actually attacks? 
 
Activating or deactivating a power is a 0-phase action (unless the power 
has a limitation that requires more time).  0-phase actions may be 
performed at the beginning and the middle of your action phase.  One may 
perform as many 0-phase actions as one desires (assuming one can spend the 
END). 
 
Making an attack is a half-phase action that ends your action phase. 
 
Draw your own conclusions based on that. 
 
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--  
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 10 Dec 1997 11:49:47 -0500 
Lines: 28 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 164 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
TRG> 	No matter which interpretation you use, which camp you side with, 
TRG> running the limitation like that is just a plain old points crock. 
TRG> Basically, you get a -1/2 on a power for absolutely no disadvantage, 
TRG> save having to spend 1 END on another power for a 0 level.  This means 
TRG> there is no reason not to take every power linked. 
 
I agree on this.  Regardless of how you work Linked, the Linked power must 
be used in proportion with the power to which it is Linked. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 10 Dec 1997 11:52:06 -0500 
Lines: 27 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 162 
 
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
TRG>  	There is no need for this, as Linkable would not be allowed.  If 
TRG> powers aren't linked, they are seperate powers.  Two linked powers 
TRG> become one metapower.  There is no allowed in-between. 
 
Why not?  Champions allows one to create any effect one wants.  If you 
start adding arbitrary restrictions like this you lose exactly what makes 
Champions better than anything else around. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 10 Dec 1997 12:04:47 -0500 
Lines: 32 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 163 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
TRG> 	Rat's comments should be seen as exactly that, his.  He has his 
TRG> own (very strong) predjudices.  One of them is a dislike for Long and 
TRG> everything he writes, no matter how useful and good.  Take with a 
TRG> (large) grain of salt. 
 
Not true.  I like the "Lightning Reflexes" pseudo-talent.  It is much 
cleaner than allowing the abort element on strike maneuver bases. 
 
I find most of his other mechanics questionable at best.  They frequently 
work okay within extremely limited sets of circumstances, but fail 
spectacularly in the general.  I also have problems with his frequent use 
of strangely limited powers to duplicate the effects of extant skills. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:59:11 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites?? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 167 
 
> >   Actually, FTL cannot be used within the atmosphere, according to the BBB. 
> > Might I suggest using a form of Teleport, with the special effect/Limitation 
> > of "Only along electrical currents?" Just a thought. 
> 
>         So can we consider this an "official" ruling. <g> 
> 
>         Anyway, that's a construct I used myself a few times.  Once, I 
> mixed it with a limitation for no control over destination as the 
> character moved through power lines, grids, etc.  Never knew exactly where 
> he'd pop out. 
 
    I have to throw my hat in here to that restricting FTL to out of atmosphere 
prevents several 
comic book powers from being done in a reasonable cost within hero. It needs some 
kind of in-atmosphere variation. 
 
    I liked Fuzion's Super-Sonic flight. Nice take from V&V. But more such 
hyper-speed movement 
abilities are needed. 
 
-- 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:59:12 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 166 
 
 
> And by the same token, can I dismiss your opinions just by "warning" 
> everyone that you have some very strong prejudices FOR Mr. Long?  *Anyone's* 
 
	Hey.  Actually, I do like what he's done for the system.  I think 
his contributions can be ranked only behind Allston's. 
 
> opinions should be seen as "exactly that".  Nobody on this list is putting a 
> gun to the readers' head and trying to force a style of play. 
 
	No, but some novice who comes along and only sees one point of 
view will be misguided.  That's why we are all here to point out how wrong 
each of the others is. 
 
> Rat happens to be one of the more intelligent people on the list -- I end up 
> on the opposite side of the fence from him on almost all the big debates 
> here, but I'd still rather listen to him disagreeing with me than many 
> people taking my side. 
 
	Oh, agreed.  He's always sure to have the same arguments and same 
points, but he supports them well.  He's our Hero Fundamentalist voice. 
 
> 
> If you disagree with him, that's fine -- just present your own opinions. and 
> maybe all of us here can learn something from them.  But it's downright 
> asinine and unnecessarily inflammatory to make a big production number out 
> of letting everyone know what a dangerous influence he apparently is, 
> pronouncing in great authoritarian tones how the poor fool managed to escape 
> his chains again and post some madness before being caught and returned to 
> his cell. :/ 
 
 	Hmmm.  I rather like this approach, actually.  It seems to fit 
with Rat's "god has spoken" approach to anything revolving around Linked 
or Steve Long. 
 
> >	By the same token, of course, Rat means to say that all Martial 
> >maneuvers are just plain stupid.  Buy combat skill levels and just be 
> >happy. 
> 
> Or, he could just mean that unlike hand-to-hand combat, real-life ranged 
> weapon "martial arts" simply do NOT break down into a maneuver-by-maneuver 
> basis, and are therefore better represented by a single-skill approach such 
> as combat levels. 
 
	Hmmm.  Could be, but he didn't say that.  He just said that they 
are stupid and his logic would suggest HTH MA is stupid as well. 
Personally, I find Ranged MAs to handle a few of the trickier areas to 
handle, such as ranged trips. 
 
> > 	 That's what all maneuvers are anyway.  There is just a large 
> >pre-made list to allow for different flavor. 
> 
> Okay, this I agree with -- expanding the maneuver list is not a problem. 
 
	Whew.  Glad to get agreed with on one point at least. 
 
> What I did have a problem with is S.L. telling his readers not to *design* 
> martial arts with maneuvers (such as Fast Strike and Martial Strike) that 
> can be made to match each other with a couple combat levels, and further 
> points out that this "problem" most often shows up when trying to model 
> real-life combat styles. (Yeah, God forbid we should do something to match 
> real life when it impedes point efficiency.) 
 
	Well, hmmm.  As I can see it, Rat seemed to be arguing for the 
same thing.  However, I'll probably still be redundant because it just 
*looks* cool to have so many different maneuvers with differing effects. 
 
> AFAIK, Rat would not do that power because Rat is a HERO fundamentalist, 
> i.e. he has actually read the rulebook and made an attempt to comprehend it. 
 
	Not in all cases.  Some are perfectly "Fundy" but still raise 
Rat's ire.  I think some of it is personal.  Rat doesn't want to use a 
Long construction. 
 
> Long, it too often seems, has not.  In this case, it didn't seem like much 
> of a problem to me -- since the bulk of the UMA is cribbed from Ninja HERO, 
> you won't find too much out of line. 
 
	Long just is more liberal with his rules than Rat is, not a 
problem on my end.  The rules are there to enable any possible 
construction, not to hinder construction. 
 
> (For the REALLY munchkinoid 
> constructions, one should check out -The Ultimate Mentalist- -- worth the 
> money for the laugh value alone). 
 
	Actually, I find it one of my most useful books.  More so even 
than UMA.  UMA vs Ninja Hero, you could get by with NH.  UM vs well, maybe 
Mystic Masters, well, no contest.  UM brings up and clarifies a lot of 
areas of under explained and under exampled rules.  Does a good job too. 
It also, for the record, makes most Mental Powers *less* effective with 
its "different classes of minds" sections. 
 
> P.S. Honest question, Tim -- this is not meant as a jibe or anything, I'm 
> sincerely curious.  Did you ever see a rules interpretation/alteration 
> printed that you DIDN'T approve of? 
 
 
	Except for those in poorly edited books that were just plain 
typos, not really.  I've seen a few on the net and on this list with some 
questionable EC use that I wouldn't allow, but that would just be a GM 
call.  Actually, I'm just about for any application of the rules -- with 
the caveat that the GM allow it.  Plain and simple, GM's call. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:05:18 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 165 
 
 
>         1) There's now a "Flash" element available to do poke-in-the-eye 
>         or earboxing maneuvers.  Costs the same as NND; a good improvement 
>         (I feel icky making my players spend points for things that 
>         Joe Bloe can do). 
 
	Forgot about this.  Even included a basic "eye-poke" in regular 
"free" maneuvers.  One of the best contributions of this book. 
 
>         2) There's now a "Disable" element available which doesn't cost 
>         anything, and improves your chances of impairing or disabling 
>         the target.  It struck me as possibly being broken, since the 
>         supposed "balancing limits" didn't seem all that limiting (for 
>         example, it's required to be aimed at a specific hit location, 
>         but it doesn't take any OCV penatly for a called shot). 
 
	O.K.  Here's one I agreed with it's importance but quickly decided 
not to allow in my campaigns.  Too potentially unbalancing.  But, I can 
see some realistic and MA campaigns where this could be usefull. 
 
>         training (aforementioned archery) simply does not break up 
>         neatly into maneuvers like hand-to-hand fighting styles, so 
>         this just doesn't feel right. I'd probably stick with Combat 
>         Levels and called shots. 
 
	Well, the one thing I like is the nice ranged trips and disarms. 
 
>         missing.  Some of these new martial arts are so thinly 
>         described, there's little point in including them; on the 
>         other hand, the section on Pentjak Silat is so broad as to 
>         make it a competitor in importance for Kung Fu. 
 
	I'll take all the MA styles I can, even if thinly described.  If I 
want to, I can get more info but it's always great to have choices for 
your players. 
 
>         5) There is LOTS and LOTS of padding. (Does anyone else feel 
>         like using Dim Mak on S.L. just to keep him from making 
>         *another* fictional style where every d*** maneuver is "The 
>         {adjective}{move} of {Name}"?) 
 
 
	I was chuckly alot over all this.  Very funny and effectively 
poking fun at some of the MA movie genre.  Also some useful stuff for 
villian organizations or heroic getaways. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:22:14 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: TUSV: Sabotage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 23 
 
   Something occurred to me yesterday that should be in TUSV, but isn't in 
the current manuscript: sabotage.  This happens quite frequently in movies 
and stuff, and so should have some rules covering it. 
   My problem is, I'm not sure how it should be handled. 
   What I'm leaning toward is this (to give a simplified version):  The 
saboteur decides what he wants to do to the vehicle, and the GM assigns an 
appropriate Skill, just like a normal application.  And, of course, there's 
a difficulty penalty for what the saboteur is trying to do: 
 
   Disabling a Device: -1 per ten Active Points being shut off. 
   Planting a Device (such as a bomb or remote control): -1 per ten Active 
Points being added. 
   Weakening a Device (such as Burnout Rolls, Extra Time Limitation, etc.): 
-1 per -1/4 Limitation being imposed on a device. 
 
   Does anyone have any feedback or further suggestions?  I haven't 
dedicated anything to the actual manuscript yet (I'm still putting in stuff 
based on the recent discussion on locks -- thanks gang!), so the section is 
still open. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:30:33 EST 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 168 
 
<< I'm going to have to agree with this myself.  But I'll take it further than 
that, you are more than welcome to send me ads provided you also carrying on 
normal conversation and answer questions too. >> 
 
  Deal. ;)  I'm doing the best I can. So far the questions have been 
relatively easy to answer. The biggest problem I see so far is the confusion 
over the role of the "flux" in the new campaign setting, but that's easy 
enough to remedy. 
 
  Hey, would anyone here care to see the *revised* preview that I've mentioned 
a time or two? Basically it's the final manuscript text of the first two 
chapters. Slightly revised and updated, and hopefully a little clearer (re: 
the flux). 
 
<< I appreciate how you have entered the mailing list.  From what I can tell, 
you have done a great job in answering every e-mail you could.  Thanks for 
that. >> 
 
  My pleasure. I don't know how many fans are on this list, but I imagine 
there are quite a few. If we can get the word to you folks, you should be able 
to help us convert the uninformed in no time! <LOL> 
 
  Go forth, brothers, and teach the others of your land! Tell them that HS4 is 
not dead. Nay, it but lives again! Hidden for all these months in a cave in 
Aramathea! But it is come back to us, in the form of San Angelo! Reborn! 
Arisen from the ashes of what was! 
 
<< Remember for every one of us in here, there is often a whole gaming group 
out there that we GM or talk with. So word from here does spread pretty far at 
times. >> 
 
  Trying to blackmail us, eh?  ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:30:36 EST 
Subject: Re: San Angelo (Re: Greetings) 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 170 
 
  First off, the name of the city is San Angelo, not San Angelino. ;) 
 
  Secondly, folks, you help us squash those INCORRECT rumors right away by NOT 
quoting them and pasting them into your messages. For example, the whole 
thread about "it doesn't allow you to do faeries..." garbage is simply 
misinterpretation. 
 
  I am here to tell you right now that in our "official" published San Angelo 
campaign, ANYTHING you want is possible: magic, dawrves, Atalntean princes, 
aliens, vampires, whatever. In fact, right there in the preview it mentions 
the non-linear temporal existence of the flux, and how its "introduction" to 
the world could be responsible for Merlin and Dracula of ancient times! 
 
  So please, read it before you start spreading those comments that make other 
uninformed readers go "Screw that. I'm not wasting my money if I can't play 
faeries!" 
 
  Thanks. :) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:30:41 EST 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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<< I downloaded SA:CoH and I liked it. >> 
 
  Thank you. 
 
<< I would, of course, have to change a few things to make it fit my campaigns 
based up here in the great frozen north (Canada).  But then very few GMs ever 
use a 'Vanilla' supplement straight out of the box. >> 
 
  That we do know, and we kept that in mind as the book was being designed. 
There are quite a few "blanks" for the GM to fill in with elements from his 
own campaign. Things like, say, two of the ten wealthiest people in San 
Angelo, etc. 
 
  Btw, I would be interested in proposals for a supplement that was based in, 
oh, say, Canada. So if anyone wants to send in a proposal to us, be my guest. 
Keep in mind that we will want a mix of materials for the book: NPCs, gadgets, 
plot hooks, source material, etc. It could even involve a fictional Canadian 
city. ;) 
 
<< From what I read it looks like a well designed and integrated whole, with 
enough flexability to let me modify it to fit how I want my champaign to work. 
>> 
 
  And that is EXACTLY what we are aiming to do. As another example, the sample 
PC hero team (The Justice Foundation) are known in the campaign setting as the 
"second string" team. Why? Because the MAIN hero team in the city are YOUR 
heroes. 
 
  That's right. Your PCs are the top dog heroes in the city, and every one of 
our books is going to make that assumption. So, no, we will NOT be featuring 
the Justice Foundation heroes on every single book cover! <LOL> 
 
<< I hope it will be available for electronic mail ordering, because I found 
that a lot of stuff never makes it up here.  For example, I had never even 
heard of Heromaker software untill I got on the internet. >> 
 
  Well, TD Imports in Canada will be carrying it, so start bugging your game 
retailer now! And for the record, and other Champions book you want to order 
can be ordered through TD Imports as well. So don't let your retailer tell you 
different! ;) 
 
<< I have the goldrush games webpage on my netminder list, so I will be 
checking out anything new as it happens. >> 
 
  Excellent! 
 
<< BTW,  Sorry to read about Tyson.  That was a terrible thing to happen. >> 
 
  Thanks for the condolences. It's a tough time. First my grandmother passed 
away, then I almost lost Marge in a car wreck, and then Tyson was killed. It's 
been a crappy two months. Next year must be an awesome year, near as I can 
figure. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:31:55 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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>    I can see where the original poster got this idea, though.  I think that 
> older versions of Linked said that the Powers had to be used in proportion 
> to each other, meaning that the 12d6 EB/3d6 Flash could be used at full 
> power, or at 8d6 EB/2d6 Flash, or 6d6 EB/1 1/2d6 Flash, etc.  That text 
> didn't carry over, so a strict reading of the 4th Ed Linked Limitation 
> could be interpreted as above. 
 
	Oh, I know it can be read that way, but there is no reason any 
sane GM, no matter what camp he or she is in, should allow 
non-proportional linked.  It is just free points. 
 
> > Does anyone know how to get a hold of Gazza, BTW.  I miss his 
> >commentary. 
> 
>    Ditto!  (He was also going to run a couple of the adventures from my 
> website -- "Power Dreams" and "Arms Against the Dragon" -- and tell me how 
> things went, and I always like concrete feedback on my material.) 
 
	He said hwe was off to do something but would be back in November 
or December.  Where is he. 
 
	Help us Obi-Wan-Gazza, you're our only hope. 
 
 
 
		-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:34:51 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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> TRG> 	Actually, this is only one of what were originally two 
> TRG> (conflicting) answers.  One somehow disappeared into the mists.  Hmmm. 
> 
> Actually, at first there was only one answer.  Then Vox managed to get 
> Steve to make a 100% contradictory ruling. 
> 
> The current version of the FAQ contains neither ruling, only Steve's last 
> words on the subject. 
 
	Which I like, actually.  Rules are optional.  Works for me just 
perfectly. 
 
> Activating or deactivating a power is a 0-phase action (unless the power 
> has a limitation that requires more time).  0-phase actions may be 
> performed at the beginning and the middle of your action phase.  One may 
> perform as many 0-phase actions as one desires (assuming one can spend the 
> END). 
 
	Right. 
 
> Making an attack is a half-phase action that ends your action phase. 
 
	Uh-huh.  And only one attack power in said attack action, the rest 
are wasted. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:36:23 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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> Not true.  I like the "Lightning Reflexes" pseudo-talent.  It is much 
> cleaner than allowing the abort element on strike maneuver bases. 
 
	O.K.  That's one at least. 
 
> I find most of his other mechanics questionable at best.  They frequently 
> work okay within extremely limited sets of circumstances, but fail 
> spectacularly in the general.  I also have problems with his frequent use 
> of strangely limited powers to duplicate the effects of extant skills. 
 
	I will, in general, take the skill as well but consider the 
power-built skill to be able to do things the regular skill would find 
impossible with incredibly large negative modifiers. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:38:23 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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> TRG> 	No matter which interpretation you use, which camp you side with, 
> TRG> running the limitation like that is just a plain old points crock. 
> TRG> Basically, you get a -1/2 on a power for absolutely no disadvantage, 
> TRG> save having to spend 1 END on another power for a 0 level.  This means 
> TRG> there is no reason not to take every power linked. 
> 
> I agree on this.  Regardless of how you work Linked, the Linked power must 
> be used in proportion with the power to which it is Linked. 
 
 
	Oops.  Be on the lookout, folks.  You should be seeing Pigs 
Flying, Icebergs Moving Through the Underworld, and Monkeys Coming From 
Certain Anatomical Areas.  Rat and I have agreed on two things in a row 
here. 
 
	Anyway, glad to have some backup there, Rat.  Linked needs 
proportional, plain and simple. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:42:39 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
Subject: San Angelino Previews (Was Re: Greetings) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 176 
 
> << I'm going to have to agree with this myself.  But I'll take it further than 
> that, you are more than welcome to send me ads provided you also carrying on 
> normal conversation and answer questions too. >> 
> 
>   Deal. ;)  I'm doing the best I can. So far the questions have been 
> relatively easy to answer. The biggest problem I see so far is the confusion 
> over the role of the "flux" in the new campaign setting, but that's easy 
> enough to remedy. 
> 
>   Hey, would anyone here care to see the *revised* preview that I've mentioned 
> a time or two? Basically it's the final manuscript text of the first two 
> chapters. Slightly revised and updated, and hopefully a little clearer (re: 
> the flux). 
> 
 
    Yeah, I'd love to see what you've got. 
 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:44:44 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 175 
 
 
> TRG>  	There is no need for this, as Linkable would not be allowed.  If 
> TRG> powers aren't linked, they are seperate powers.  Two linked powers 
> TRG> become one metapower.  There is no allowed in-between. 
> 
> Why not?  Champions allows one to create any effect one wants.  If you 
> start adding arbitrary restrictions like this you lose exactly what makes 
> Champions better than anything else around. 
 
 
	Bully.  It's like the argument many months back that a RKA Damage 
Field would stop incoming bullets.  Nope, buy another power.  If you want 
EB, Flash, and EB+Flash buy them as three seperate powers.  Two powers 
together are something entirely different than just two powers being used 
together.  They become a new MetaEffect.  Not that you can't do it, you 
just have to buy things seperately. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:54:27 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: San Angelo Ethnic makeup 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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> << 1.   What's the ethnic makeup? And don't just tell me 'everyone'. :) >> 
>   The ethnic make-up of what? Of the city? Of the NPCs appearing in the book? 
> Of the characters in the illos? 
 
    Yeah, the city. hey, the NPC's too. I get tired of seeing mono-ethnic stuff. It 
fitsif the location is mono-ethnic, but not in a place like New York or California. 
 
 
> << This plays a major role in cultures and relations. Are the asian groups 
> Chinese, Korean, Mhong, Philipino, Laotian, Vietnamese... >> 
>   Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes... 
> <<      Are my hispanics Mexican, Mexican-American, Guatamalin, Columbian, Cuban 
> (not likely on the west coast...), Peruvian... >> 
>   I don't think I'm following you here. 
 
    Hey, there's a dif. Just wanted to know if you knew that. I'm not asking for super 
detail here,but I don't want to see em all get grouped into being a bunch of drunk 
mexicans in the back of an old 
pickup doing 35 on the freeway either. :) (Hey, it's a description I've heard used to 
label anyone 
speaking spanish, go figure...) 
 
 
> << Are my caucasians WASP, Russian emmigrants, Irish, Italian... Are my blacks 
> Carribean, Afro-American, African... Pakistani or Indian? >> 
>   We have a little of everything. Like I said, we tried to make San Angelo 
> seem like a real city with real people. If you want exact demographics of our 
> San Angelo I can dig them up for you. But I can tell you that if you are 
> expecting a city with just "four colors" (white, black, brown and yellow) 
> you're going to be very, very disappointed. 
 
    Actually, if it had 'just four colors', I'd be annoyed. I'd buy it, cause I'm used 
to that levelof glossing over on what is a very sensitive issue in America, but I'd be 
disapointed. 
    You go on to say things that make me feel as if you're giving it a good effort, if 
that holds, 
I'll be satisfied.    Just as long as I don't get an X-men style treatment of it all, 
with everyone walking around 
acting 'kewl' calling each other something-san. :) And loads of out of date and 
innacurate slang and 
ethnic info. 
 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:04:26 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: San Angelo (Re: Greetings) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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>   I am here to tell you right now that in our "official" published San Angelo 
> campaign, ANYTHING you want is possible: magic, dawrves, Atalntean princes, 
 
	Oh yeah, but what about *Atlantean* princes, huh. <g> 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 20:28:56  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 08 Dec 1997 16:03:46 -0500, Urklore The Iron wrote: 
 
>The link is a 1/2 disadvantage, but is it really? 
 
CA NE VA PAS RECOMMENCER! 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:30:23 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 46 
 
At 08:08 PM 12/10/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>> Depends on which construction.  Some of Long's constructions are simply 
>> broken. 
> 
>	I really disagree with that statement.  Heck, I actually see 
>reason for that Focus rather than follower Computer construction. 
 
I might have my reasons for mugging you, but it's still illegal. Broke is 
broke is broke is broke. :/ 
 
>>  Others are, on paper, legal but unnecessary (mostly the ones that 
>> duplicate skill effects -- you're paying points for something that a 
>> competent GM would allow the normal skill to do). 
> 
>	Well, I think competent should be replaced by liberal there. 
>There are some skill effects I will put about out of reach to normal 
>skill.  That's what the power-based skills are for. 
 
I agree that there are some instances when I'd want to use a Power to 
simulate a superhuman level of skill (the proverbial thief who can steal the 
yolk from an egg without breaking the shell is NOT doing it with Sleight of 
Hand).  But many of the Dark Champions constructions don't seem to really 
take into account what IS in reach for a normal skill. 
 
>> there's a LOT of Long's bad habits at work again (the duplicate effects of 
>> Psych Lims on Mind Control, the unnecessary changes to Mind Scan, and the 
>> execrable Desolid and Invisibility constructions). 
> 
>	One man's garbage is another's treasure.  I like the Desol and 
>Invis constructs.  And the Mind Scan changes make sense to me.  As for the 
>Mental Combat maneuvers, well, I don't really like the ones in the book. 
>I like Long's original ones better -- the ones in the book were from 
>Peterson, I believe. 
 
I didn't see a reason to break Mind Scan out of the pattern established by 
the other Mental Powers; the biggest change (making it a Constant power) 
seems to be another example of "I don't grok the original rule so I'll just 
write on top of it". 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:30:25 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 48 
 
At 09:27 PM 12/10/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Is it?  I get two different types of "damage" in a single attack.  That is 
>certainly more useful to me than an attack that has only one type of 
>"damage". 
 
Not when you consider that the odds of you having a given kind of attack are 
roughly equivalent to the odds of your opponent having a given kind of 
defense.  Shifting attack types doesn't change the fact that you're taking 
the whole pool of Active Points of the attack and applying it against two 
different kinds of defenses, when either attack would be better served to 
get the whole enchilada. 
 
Think in terms of the most basic kinds of attacks: physical and energy. 
Which is better, a 5d6 EB vs. PD linked to a 5d6 EB vs. ED, or a 10d6 EB vs. 
one or the other form of defense? 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:30:27 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 44 
 
At 09:36 PM 12/10/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Go read the section on Presence Attacks, specifically the example of the 
>guy blasting the tree, making a presence attack, then blasting the troll. 
> 
>Wonky or not, either the example in the BBB is wrong, or you are wrong. 
> 
>I am with the BBB on this one until someone from Hero Games comes out and 
>states that the example is broken. 
 
I'm saying BOTH examples are wrong, or at the very least vague and 
badly-written (for example, it doesn't mention that the tree-blasting is in 
the SAME phase as the PRE attack -- it could be a SPD 4 wizard against SPD 2 
trolls). 
 
== 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:30:29 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 45 
 
At 10:21 PM 12/10/97 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
>Ah, but knowing: 
> 
>A.) that the style 'exists' (even if only in the dubious credibility of Mr. 
>Long - Jailhouse Rock indeed! What was wrong with 'dirty infighting'?) 
>B.) where the style originates/who uses it (most of the descriptions give at 
>least this much) 
> 
>You _can_ track down the interesting stuff in the library. If they had just 
>stuck to a few arts and done them in detail, you wouldn't have that. 
 
Considering that I work at a library (freelance), and just about LIVE there 
the rest of my time, I'd get around to doing this anyways without Steve's 
help. :] 
 
To me, the idea that these things are "research pointers" smacks of a "pat" 
defense for game products I've grown very annoyed by: the "well, if you 
don't like it, you can make up something else yourself".  Yes, this is true, 
but ... I could have done that BEFORE I blew $15-30 on the lame duck product 
in question.  I shouldn't have to pay money for the privilege of doing my 
own work. 
 
Which is why I'm a heck of a lot more critical of stuff like this than 
others might be -- I look at it from a sheer financial perspective.  A page 
I don't use is a percentage of the price lost to thin air.  Mistakes can be 
forgiven if it's just me "publishing" my work on the Web.  When I start 
charging for it, a higher percentage of it has to be good.  (For the same 
reason, I dislike high artwork percentages and space-wasteful formatting for 
the sake of showing off one's typesetting prowess.  Make it clean, legible, 
and tasteful, then STOP.) 
 
>Okay, it's a weak argument *^_^*. I would have _loved_ more individual style 
>detail - especially on stuff the average westerner at least touches on - 
>Karate, Kung Fu, Sumo, Fencing, Boxing, Pro Wrestling, Jui-Jitsu, Pentjak 
>Silat, etc. Handing out a maneuvers list for stuff like Re-Efi Areh-Ehsee 
>and Hisardut really was a waste of space (as were the fictional styles. 
>Barf, though I did like Takijutsu, mostly for the nifty 'mystical' powers). 
 
Is that the waterfall style? I liked the waterfall style, the spider style, 
and the drunken clown style.  Most of the others should have been taken out 
and shot, preferably with cyanide bullets just to make sure. 
 
But really, I think that's something missing from a LOT of martial arts 
books in RPGs: the visuals.  It's one thing to put down a list of maneuvers 
for Capoeira, it's another thing entirely to see a jenga (sp?).  Many 
martial arts have very similar mechanical maneuvers, but look nothing alike 
in use; if a GM wants to capture the feeling of those arts, he has to know 
what that feeling IS, what the differences are. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:30:32 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 42 
 
At 07:15 PM 12/10/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>Nice phrasing... makes one wonder exactly what Vox did to Steve to get him 
>to make said ruling.:) ("Reverse that ruling or I'll make you throw out 
>the Hero System for a fixed power list system and rework the Champions U 
>to emulate a style of comics which not only sucks but is dying in the 
>marketplace!" Oh wait... they actually _did_ that...) 
 
Shhhh! You want me to get lynched, Trev?? 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:30:34 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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At 12:43 AM 12/11/97 -0500, Tokyo Mark wrote: 
>The fictional martial arts are a mixed bag, some are pretty good, some 
>I'll never use.  The real martial arts need a little more detail at 
>times./  And many of them could have been left out totally (Jail House 
>Rock, for example), while bigger name martial arts were left out.  Russian 
>Sambo is not a variation on amatuer wrestling, it has more in common with 
>Jujutsu and seemingly would have merited a write up.  And in pro wrestling 
>Lucha Libre is about as far from real as pro wrestling gets.:) 
 
It could be worse.  The Street Fighter RPG equates Sambo with *professional* 
wrestling. (Sorry, WW, there are no piledrivers in Sambo). 
 
== 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:07:41 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: San Angelino Previews (Was Re: Greetings) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> 
>     Yeah, I'd love to see what you've got. 
> 
 
 
	Same. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:44:03 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Status:  
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X-UID: 13 
 
At 01:30 PM 12/10/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< I'm going to have to agree with this myself.  But I'll take it further 
than 
>that, you are more than welcome to send me ads provided you also carrying on 
>normal conversation and answer questions too. >> 
> 
>  Deal. ;)  I'm doing the best I can. So far the questions have been 
>relatively easy to answer. The biggest problem I see so far is the confusion 
>over the role of the "flux" in the new campaign setting, but that's easy 
>enough to remedy. 
> 
>  Hey, would anyone here care to see the *revised* preview that I've 
mentioned 
>a time or two? Basically it's the final manuscript text of the first two 
>chapters. Slightly revised and updated, and hopefully a little clearer (re: 
>the flux). 
 
   I'd love to see it.  (A word of advice, though: email it directly to 
those who express interest, rather than to the list.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:47:06 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
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X-UID: 14 
 
At 01:31 PM 12/10/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>>    I can see where the original poster got this idea, though.  I think that 
>> older versions of Linked said that the Powers had to be used in proportion 
>> to each other, meaning that the 12d6 EB/3d6 Flash could be used at full 
>> power, or at 8d6 EB/2d6 Flash, or 6d6 EB/1 1/2d6 Flash, etc.  That text 
>> didn't carry over, so a strict reading of the 4th Ed Linked Limitation 
>> could be interpreted as above. 
> 
> Oh, I know it can be read that way, but there is no reason any 
>sane GM, no matter what camp he or she is in, should allow 
>non-proportional linked.  It is just free points. 
 
   100% agreed, here. 
 
>> > Does anyone know how to get a hold of Gazza, BTW.  I miss his 
>> >commentary. 
>> 
>>    Ditto!  (He was also going to run a couple of the adventures from my 
>> website -- "Power Dreams" and "Arms Against the Dragon" -- and tell me how 
>> things went, and I always like concrete feedback on my material.) 
> 
> He said hwe was off to do something but would be back in November 
>or December.  Where is he. 
> 
> Help us Obi-Wan-Gazza, you're our only hope. 
 
   "Come back to the Hero Mailing List, Gary Sturgess, Gary Sturgess." 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 10 Dec 1997 17:03:44 -0500 
Lines: 69 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
>> Making an attack is a half-phase action that ends your action phase. 
TRG> 	Uh-huh.  And only one attack power 
 
There are no such things as "attack powers". 
 
TRG> in said attack action, the rest are wasted. 
 
The BBB does not say that.  What it says is: 
 
* Activating a power is a 0-phase action.  You may perform as many 0-phase 
  actions during your action phase as you desire, at the beginning and 
  middle of your action phase. 
 
* Making an attack is a half-phase action and ends your action phase. 
 
Now, follow closely, because I am going to be obnoxiously pedantic about 
timing, because it is critical to understanding how powers function. 
Activation of a power -- the type of power is unqualified so it applies to 
all powers -- is a 0-phase action.  Making an attack is a half-phase action 
that ends your action phase.  0-phase actions may be performed only before 
the start of your first half-phase action and between the end of your first 
half-phase action and the beginning of your second half-phase action (this 
distinguishes 0-phase actions from "no time" actions, which may be 
performed at any time during your action phase).  Attack actions may be 
performed only as a half-phase action. 
 
It is Segment 12, the start of combat.  I want to fly up near you and tag 
you with my Energy Blast.  At the start of my action phase I activate my 
Flight and my Force Field (just in case).  I use my first half-phase action 
to move.  I activate my Energy Blast between my first and second half-phase 
actions as a 0-phase action.  I use my second half-phase action to attack 
you with my Energy Blast. 
 
If there is a fault in this timing, please cite chapter and verse from the 
BBB that shows it. 
 
A slight modification: instead of just activating my Energy Blast between 
my two half-phase actions, I want to activate my Flash as well.  No 
problem: activation of a power is a 0-phase action, and I may perform as 
many as I wish at that point during my action phase.  I have not made an 
attack action, yet, because my second half-phase action has not began. 
 
So now a question: if I can use both my Flight and Force Field together 
during my first half-phase action, and if I can use my Force Field and 
Energy Blast together during my second half-phase action, where in the BBB 
does it prohibit me from using my Force Field, Energy Blast and Flash 
together during my second half-phase action?  No rhetoric, please.  I am 
using the BBB as the canonical reference to support my position; please 
have the courtesy to do the same. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 10 Dec 1997 17:09:53 -0500 
Lines: 35 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
TRG> 	Bully.  It's like the argument many months back that a RKA Damage 
TRG> Field would stop incoming bullets.  Nope, buy another power.  If you want 
TRG> EB, Flash, and EB+Flash buy them as three seperate powers.  Two powers 
TRG> together are something entirely different than just two powers being used 
TRG> together.  They become a new MetaEffect.  Not that you can't do it, you 
TRG> just have to buy things seperately. 
 
Then what is the purpose of Linked besides free points?  If smashing two 
powers together creates a new power, and this is the normal case for 
powers (and this is not an unreasonable way to do things) then Linked gives 
you nothing that the powers in question could not normally do. 
 
If this is not the normal case, then what you describe Linked doing is an 
advantage, not a limitation.  An Energy Blast and a Flash that can be used 
together is more useful than an Energy Blast and a Flash that cannot. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 10 Dec 1997 17:11:02 -0500 
Lines: 28 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
TRG> 	I will, in general, take the skill as well but consider the 
TRG> power-built skill to be able to do things the regular skill would find 
TRG> impossible with incredibly large negative modifiers. 
 
Desolidification as a "Dodge" maneuver. 
 
The problems with this are so numerous that anyone with any understanding 
of the mechanics should see them. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:47:11 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 50 
 
> At 01:30 PM 12/10/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
> > And that is EXACTLY what we are aiming to do. As another example, the 
> > sample PC hero team (The Justice Foundation) are known in the campaign 
> > setting as the "second string" team. Why? Because the MAIN hero team in 
> > the city are YOUR heroes. 
> > 
> > That's right. Your PCs are the top dog heroes in the city, and every one 
> > of our books is going to make that assumption. So, no, we will NOT be 
> > featuring the Justice Foundation heroes on every single book cover! <LOL> 
>  
> THANK YOU! THANK YOU! Heaven and the Christmastime be praised! 
> 
	Agreed. 
This is a major problem of almost EVERY RPG that has a 'house campaign world'. 
Heck, some of them like Heavy Gear and TORG had it built in to so heavy a 
degree that they become 'limited time only' RPG's. 
 
> Seriously, this was always something that annoyed me about previous 4E 
> products, where they advanced the timeline on their own schedule and assumed 
> that the Champions (or whatever other hero group the author liked best) have 
> already run through all their modules.  The more books get published, the 
> further "behind" your campaign becomes, diverging further and further from 
> the universe until you're rewriting every supplement you buy practically 
> from scratch.   
> 
	Yeah, I noticed that in 'Champions Universe' they obsoleted a lot 
of the old modules by stating that "The Champions had done it already". 
 
	This things work best when suppliments are as non-campaign 
intrusive as possible. Otherwise you have to do major rewrites to use 
them. Once you have to do that you're better off just using home-made 
stuff. 
 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:50:10 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 30 
 
On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << So it's a fictional city. Would you say it's got a more Marvel, DC, or 
> Image feel to it? When I think fictional cities my mind thinks 4-color DC. >> 
>  
>   That's a really tough question for me to answer, because I have not been 
> heavy into reading comics for some time. Probably the best answer I could give 
> (or the best comparison, rather) is that it is a lot like Astro City. 
 
Hmm. For somebody who doesn't read much comics, you certainly know the 
right name to drop to get a positive response.:) 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:51:31 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 24 
 
On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << Okies. . maybe a specific url is in order?>> 
>  
>   Sorry about that. I'm used to my sig being posted as in the newsgroups. :D 
 
Well, setting up your e-mail .sig _shouldn't_ be any different/more 
difficult than setting up your Usenet .sig... but then, I see you're on 
AOL, so who knows? 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 08:53:04 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: San Angelo (Re: Greetings) 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:30 PM 12/10/97 -0500, GoldRushG wrote: 
>  First off, the name of the city is San Angelo, not San Angelino. ;) 
> 
>  Secondly, folks, you help us squash those INCORRECT rumors right away by NOT 
>quoting them and pasting them into your messages. For example, the whole 
>thread about "it doesn't allow you to do faeries..." garbage is simply 
>misinterpretation. 
> 
>  I am here to tell you right now that in our "official" published San Angelo 
>campaign, ANYTHING you want is possible: magic, dawrves, Atalntean princes, 
>aliens, vampires, whatever. In fact, right there in the preview it mentions 
>the non-linear temporal existence of the flux, and how its "introduction" to 
>the world could be responsible for Merlin and Dracula of ancient times! 
> 
>  So please, read it before you start spreading those comments that make other 
>uninformed readers go "Screw that. I'm not wasting my money if I can't play 
>faeries!" 
> 
>  Thanks. :) 
> 
>  Mark @ GRG 
> 
 
Okie-dokey. I assumed this wuz the case, and in fact a good general theme for  
powers is useful- for instance, how do adjustment powers and supresses work? 
One possibility is that they effect heros at a point of 'grand unification', 
although i understand that the flux is meant to be more in the background.  
I actually think that after years of. . um. . shall we say rather generic  
matirial, people might need a bit of time to gtet back to grips with some  
actual compaign concepts. . . give them three, maybe four hours *lol* 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:54:45 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 28 
 
On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> >   None of the above. I don't know about you guys, by feeling is that more 
> > Hero-sympathetic people in WotC is a *good* thing. Shadis has already run an 
> > article for AD&D. I would say that times are changing, and for the better. Who 
> > knows. Perhaps AD&D --> Fuzion --> Hero System conversions are coming down the 
> > pike? No secret info, just speculation. 
>  
> With the aquisition of TSR, WOTC is a financial monster. 
 
Had been for some time; buying TSR just made it obvious. 
 
> Still doesn't mean I have to buy their cards or consider Shadis to be the 
> last word on gaming.  OTOH, good, non-biased exposure for the best universal 
> system on the market is cool by me. 
 
What has Shadis to do with it? Did WotC buy them too? 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:06:20 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:30 PM 12/10/97 -0500, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< I downloaded SA:CoH and I liked it. >> 
> 
>  Thank you. 
> 
><< I would, of course, have to change a few things to make it fit my campaigns 
>based up here in the great frozen north (Canada).  But then very few GMs ever 
>use a 'Vanilla' supplement straight out of the box. >> 
> 
>  That we do know, and we kept that in mind as the book was being designed. 
>There are quite a few "blanks" for the GM to fill in with elements from his 
>own campaign. Things like, say, two of the ten wealthiest people in San 
>Angelo, etc. 
> 
 
I think that's a much better approach than just 'leaving stuff out'  
so to speak. .  
 
>  Btw, I would be interested in proposals for a supplement that was based in, 
>oh, say, Canada. So if anyone wants to send in a proposal to us, be my guest. 
>Keep in mind that we will want a mix of materials for the book: NPCs, gadgets, 
>plot hooks, source material, etc. It could even involve a fictional Canadian 
>city. ;) 
> 
 
Is there any particular addy that proposals should be sent to? or is smail  
preferable? 
 
><< From what I read it looks like a well designed and integrated whole, with 
>enough flexability to let me modify it to fit how I want my champaign to work. 
>>> 
> 
>  And that is EXACTLY what we are aiming to do. As another example, the sample 
>PC hero team (The Justice Foundation) are known in the campaign setting as the 
>"second string" team. Why? Because the MAIN hero team in the city are YOUR 
>heroes. 
> 
 
hooray! *g*  
 
>  That's right. Your PCs are the top dog heroes in the city, and every one of 
>our books is going to make that assumption. So, no, we will NOT be featuring 
>the Justice Foundation heroes on every single book cover! <LOL> 
> 
 
awww. . i was kinda looking forward to seeing an axe-wielding  
new zelander getting his butt kicked by 60 different villans *j/k* 
 
><< I hope it will be available for electronic mail ordering, because I found 
>that a lot of stuff never makes it up here.  For example, I had never even 
>heard of Heromaker software untill I got on the internet. >> 
> 
>  Well, TD Imports in Canada will be carrying it, so start bugging your game 
>retailer now! And for the record, and other Champions book you want to order 
>can be ordered through TD Imports as well. So don't let your retailer tell you 
>different! ;) 
> 
 
Hmmm, any plans to go overseas? Australia, maybe? *g* I expect it'd  
be quite a stretch. .. . . 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:08:58 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites?? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 29 
 
On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Case wrote: 
 
>  
>  Problem (a): 
>      'Aperion Negative' is a character I created who has the ability to 
> travel along electrical current. While in this energy form, he can (a) use 
> all of his electronic-based skills, like computer programming (like being in 
> cyberspace), security systems, etc (b) travel FTL, (c) he can even 'jump' 
> into a focus if someone hits him with an energy beam or flash.  When you 
> think about it, this is an incredibly powerful ability!  But I really think 
> I botched on how I bought the ability- I bought FTL with the -3/4 limitation 
> "only on energy currents". 
 
FTL can't be used to travel in the atmosphere. The BBB may have a special 
effects-oriented explanation (I don't recall off-hand), but IMO the real 
reason is simply that the base cost of FTL is way, way too cheap for 
intraplanetary travel. FTL is supposed to be a plot device power like 
Extra-Dimensional Movement, whose function is to enable access to vistas 
the characters couldn't otherwise reach. 
 
> Anybody have any ideas how I can make him truly 'street legal'? What's he 
> missing? Shrinking? 
 
Well, Desolid seems like a good choice for the base effect. Tack on 
high-speed Flight, Linked to Desolid(-1/2), Only on energy currents 
(-whatever, I'm not sure what value I'd assign). To handle the electronics 
thing, buy Affects Real World on his STR (this is the standard way to 
allow a character to manipulate objects while Desolid), and put a 
Limitation on the Affects Real World Advantage: "only for manipulating 
electronic devices". 
 
>   (b) If humans run at 6 hexes per phase in Champions, and real humans run 
> 18-22mph (is that right anybody?), how many hexes do gazelle run if they run 
> 35 mph? 
 
Based on your figures, 10"/phase or so, assuming they have the same SPD. 
There's a chart in the section on "Movement" that gives conversion between 
inches/turn and kph (and I believe mph as well) that you can use to check 
for sure. 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:11:52 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
> 
> Then what is the purpose of Linked besides free points?  If smashing two 
> powers together creates a new power, and this is the normal case for 
> powers (and this is not an unreasonable way to do things) then Linked gives 
> you nothing that the powers in question could not normally do. 
 
	Hmmm.  Yes, except smashing two together would be a disadvantage 
as spending the same points on one power would be more efficient. 
 
 
> If this is not the normal case, then what you describe Linked doing is an 
> advantage, not a limitation.  An Energy Blast and a Flash that can be used 
> together is more useful than an Energy Blast and a Flash that cannot. 
 
	But they can't be just "used together".  They are seperate powers 
with seperate effects -- they don't just go together.  To do that requires 
spending *more* points above and beyond those two to buy a new power with 
the two tied together.  As this is less effective than any one power, it 
can have the linked disadvantage. 
 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:14:13 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> TRG> 	I will, in general, take the skill as well but consider the 
> TRG> power-built skill to be able to do things the regular skill would find 
> TRG> impossible with incredibly large negative modifiers. 
> 
> Desolidification as a "Dodge" maneuver. 
 
	A great construction, BTW, as Desol is the only way in Hero to 
make one totally impervious.  (To all but a select group of attacks) 
 
> The problems with this are so numerous that anyone with any understanding 
> of the mechanics should see them. 
 
	No, tell me.  I don't see them.  It seems to work fine here. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:15:19 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 27 
 
On 10 Dec 1997, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> >>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
>  
> TRG> 	Actually, this is only one of what were originally two 
> TRG> (conflicting) answers.  One somehow disappeared into the mists.  Hmmm. 
>  
> Actually, at first there was only one answer.  Then Vox managed to get 
> Steve to make a 100% contradictory ruling. 
 
Nice phrasing... makes one wonder exactly what Vox did to Steve to get him 
to make said ruling.:) ("Reverse that ruling or I'll make you throw out 
the Hero System for a fixed power list system and rework the Champions U 
to emulate a style of comics which not only sucks but is dying in the 
marketplace!" Oh wait... they actually _did_ that...) 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:17:59 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 26 
 
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
>   And that is EXACTLY what we are aiming to do. As another example, the sample 
> PC hero team (The Justice Foundation) are known in the campaign setting as the 
> "second string" team. Why? Because the MAIN hero team in the city are YOUR 
> heroes. 
 
Funny... I generally prefer to have the PCs be a mid-level hero group. 
The X-Men rather than the Avengers, so to speak. (Well, without the 
pretension and angst.:)) 
 
Mind you, I don't think this would be particularly difficult to change. 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:19:41 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: San Angelino Previews (Was Re: Greetings) 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:07 PM 12/10/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>> 
>>     Yeah, I'd love to see what you've got. 
>> 
> 
> 
>	Same. 
> 
> 
>			-Tim Gilberg 
> 
> 
 
me too! i assumed there wuz an ur, or maybe just txt? 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:43:18 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:14 PM 12/10/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>> TRG> 	I will, in general, take the skill as well but consider the 
>> TRG> power-built skill to be able to do things the regular skill would find 
>> TRG> impossible with incredibly large negative modifiers. 
>> 
>> Desolidification as a "Dodge" maneuver. 
> 
>	A great construction, BTW, as Desol is the only way in Hero to 
>make one totally impervious.  (To all but a select group of attacks) 
> 
>> The problems with this are so numerous that anyone with any understanding 
>> of the mechanics should see them. 
> 
>	No, tell me.  I don't see them.  It seems to work fine here. 
> 
> 
>			-Tim Gilberg 
> 
> 
 
powers bought as martial arts 'skill' are deffinintly th way to go. . . 
on several martial ars guys i've had, spd and dex drains work well  
as join-breaks and such. .. I think trying to make hero a 'skill-based' 
system interms of impressive effects is a bad idea. Instead,  
accept that the 'no powers' note for heroic characters is a *guide*,  
not a law.  
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: San Angelo (Re: Greetings) 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:51:23 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 57 
 
> >  Secondly, folks, you help us squash those INCORRECT rumors right away by NOT 
> >quoting them and pasting them into your messages. For example, the whole 
> >thread about "it doesn't allow you to do faeries..." garbage is simply 
> >misinterpretation. 
> > 
> Okie-dokey. I assumed this wuz the case, and in fact a good general theme for  
> powers is useful- for instance, how do adjustment powers and supresses work? 
 
Magic Pixie dust? 
Pheromone based horomones? 
Mass-Hallucinations? 
Tapping into the greater-subconscious? 
Toon-Powers? 
Reashaping reality to fit your model of it? 
'scaring' the DNA into reforming itself? 
Act's of god? 
 
	I can come up with millions of special effects behind adjustment 
powers. 
 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:57:51 -0500 
From: "Aldo J. Regalado" <aregalad@miami.edu> 
Subject: Re: San Angelino Previews (Was Re: Greetings) 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> >>     Yeah, I'd love to see what you've got. 
> >> 
> > 
> > 
> >	Same. 
> > 
> > 
> >			-Tim Gilberg 
> > 
> > 
>  
> me too! i assumed there wuz an ur, or maybe just txt? 
 
Count me in! 
 
Dragonfly 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: nuts playing wiers stuff (Re: San Angelo) 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:36:52 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 59 
 
> >>  So please, read it before you start spreading those comments that make 
> >> other uninformed readers go "Screw that. I'm not wasting my money if I 
> >> can't play faeries!" 
> > 
> >Screw that! I'm not wasting my money if it lets some nut play faeries! 
> > 
> >(Sorry -- had to say it. ;]) 
> > 
>  
> '''seriously''' though, after i started a hero game with some  
> friends i had to ban faries and other goofy sorts. You know  
> the drill: one wanted to play a vorpal bunny, another a  
> supra-lucky dumb blonde, another wanted to convert his  
> fairy over from nexus- 
>  
> That was the worst ofender, a completly indestructable fairy 
> who could not comprehend violence or conflict of any sort. 
> He just stood around thanking people for the 'heavy presents'   
> they kept giving him (i.e. lead!)  
> 
	Sounds to me like your players wanted a more humorous game 
than you were giving them. 
 
	But seriously, what's wrong with a faerie? The faerie realm has 
long been a staple of both the fantasy and super genres. 
 
  
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:44:24 -0800 
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger) 
Subject: Re[2]: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
     Vox wrote: 
      
     >(For the REALLY munchkinoid constructions, one should check out -The  
     >Ultimate Mentalist- -- worth the money for the laugh value alone). 
      
     For those of us out of the know, what was so bad about UM? The mental 
     maneuvers seem a little pointless, but everything else seemed ok. 
      
     Richard 
      
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 10 Dec 1997 19:46:22 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes: 
 
VL> At 05:03 PM 12/10/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>> There are no such things as "attack powers". 
VL> I don't think the book backs you here, Rat. 
 
VL> On page 155, they equate certain powers with attacks ("OTHER ATTACKS ... 
VL> This Maneuver applies to any other attack not listed, like Energy Blast, 
VL> Entangle, Flash, Power Drain, and so on"). 
 
They are powers that may be used to make attacks, but that is not all they 
can do.  There is no power in the book that is exclusively used to make 
attacks.  At the very least they can be used as part of a presence attack, 
which does not constitute an attack action and no attack roll is required. 
Force Wall may be used either offensively, requiring an attack roll and an 
attack action, or defensively, without either. 
 
[...] 
 
>> It is Segment 12, the start of combat.  I want to fly up near you and 
>> tag you with my Energy Blast.  At the start of my action phase I 
>> activate my Flight and my Force Field (just in case).  I use my first 
>> half-phase action to move.  I activate my Energy Blast between my first 
>> and second half-phase actions as a 0-phase action.  I use my second 
>> half-phase action to attack you with my Energy Blast. 
 
VL> Nope.  The problem is, Energy Blast requires more than a 0-Phase action 
VL> to activate.  It requires a 0-Phase action AND AN ATTACK ROLL to 
VL> activate. 
 
It requires a half-phase action and an attack roll to attack with it, but 
it is still a power, and powers require a 0-phase action to activate unless 
they have the Extra Time Limitation.  "Activate a power" does not equate to 
"make an attack" anywhere in the BBB.  They cannot be equivalent because 
0-phase and half-phase actions occour at different times during one's 
action phase. 
 
VL> You can't use EB without the attack roll, 
 
Sure you can.  Fire it in the air as part of a presence attack.  It falls 
under "demonstration of a power". 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
>> The problems with this are so numerous that anyone with any understanding 
>> of the mechanics should see them. 
 
TRG> 	No, tell me.  I don't see them.  It seems to work fine here. 
 
Case in point. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:59:27 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Computer Questions 
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org" 
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X-UID: 1 
 
	I have constructed the base statistics for a computer.  It is 
a normal computer, not an AI.   
	I would like to give the computer some Disadvantages to lower 
it's cost.  However, I've seen conflicting information in regards to 
how computers are handled in HERO. 
	On a chart labeled General Computer Information in Champions it  
states: 
	Normal Computers have: 
	... 
	3)  No Psychological Disadvantages 
 
	Under the section 'Normal Computers,' however, it states: 
	...  They cannot have Disadvantages. 
 
	In the only other Champions book I have acquired, 'Underworld Enemies,' 
the write up includes the following for a Normal Computer known as  
'The Gallows' (pg. 44): 
	Disadvantages 
   20 | Physical Limitation: Must obey creator's orders 
   20 | Physical Limitation: Computer 
   20 | Distinctive Features: Computer (Not Conc, Major Reaction) 
   10 | DNPC: Creator (As Powerful), 14- 
 
	You assistance would be greatly appreciated.  Reference to other 
computers in HERO and how they are normally dealt with would be greatly 
appreciated. 
	Thank you. 
							Jason 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:00:15 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: nuts playing wiers stuff (Re: San Angelo) 
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At 08:27 AM 12/10/97 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>At 01:30 PM 12/10/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
>>  So please, read it before you start spreading those comments that make 
>> other uninformed readers go "Screw that. I'm not wasting my money if I 
>> can't play faeries!" 
> 
>Screw that! I'm not wasting my money if it lets some nut play faeries! 
> 
>(Sorry -- had to say it. ;]) 
> 
 
'''seriously''' though, after i started a hero game with some  
friends i had to ban faries and other goofy sorts. You know  
the drill: one wanted to play a vorpal bunny, another a  
supra-lucky dumb blonde, another wanted to convert his  
fairy over from nexus- 
 
That was the worst ofender, a completly indestructable fairy 
who could not comprehend violence or conflict of any sort. 
He just stood around thanking people for the 'heavy presents'   
they kept giving him (i.e. lead!)  
 
 
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:46:55 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
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At 08:27 AM 12/10/97 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>I'd like to clarify: I did NOT think this was a bad /mechanic/, I just 
>thought he was insane to give it away for no extra points.  A bone-breaking 
>or joint-spraining maneuver should be at least a LITTLE more expensive than 
>just striking someone outright. 
> 
 
I usually use a drain or transform.  
 
 
>>	I'll take all the MA styles I can, even if thinly described.  If I 
>>want to, I can get more info but it's always great to have choices for 
>>your players. 
> 
>If I have to go running to the library for information already, it's only a 
>smidgen more effort to put the style together myself.  This isn't Palladium 
>-- martial arts don't require a heck of a lot of work to build, especially 
>if you're just putting together the pre-done maneuvers like "Martial 
>Strike".  I REALLY think Long would have been doing the HERO market a favor 
>by, say, dropping half of his fictional styles in favor of a little more 
>detail on the flavor and appearance of the real-life styles.  Knowing the 
>game mechanics of Than Vo Dao or Re-Efi Areh Ehsee does me little to no good 
>without that material -- if I can't describe to my players how an NPC with 
>this style is moving and fighting, I can't really get effective use out of 
>that art. 
> 
 
Actually, i think hero products shoul steer clear from mechanics additions 
altogether and supply background, instead. Martial arts descriptions  
are a good example. .  
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:52:31 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
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X-UID: 3 
 
 
 
> powers bought as martial arts 'skill' are deffinintly th way to go. . . 
> on several martial ars guys i've had, spd and dex drains work well 
> as join-breaks and such. .. I think trying to make hero a 'skill-based' 
 
	Hmmm.  But those drains would need *massive* amounts of increased 
time to be realistic.  I'd rather use the disbling rules and a nice Joint 
Breaking HKA. 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:53:02 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
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At 07:47 PM 12/10/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
> 
>>> The problems with this are so numerous that anyone with any understanding 
>>> of the mechanics should see them. 
> 
>TRG> 	No, tell me.  I don't see them.  It seems to work fine here. 
> 
>Case in point. 
> 
 
Okay. . . "The problem with rat's argument is so obvious that only  
a raving lunatic would not disagree with him". *j/k* 
 
 
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>--  
>Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
>PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
>                                    \  
> 
> 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:55:43 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Computer Questions 
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At 07:59 PM 12/10/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>	I have constructed the base statistics for a computer.  It is 
>a normal computer, not an AI.   
>	I would like to give the computer some Disadvantages to lower 
>it's cost.  However, I've seen conflicting information in regards to 
>how computers are handled in HERO. 
>	On a chart labeled General Computer Information in Champions it  
>states: 
>	Normal Computers have: 
>	... 
>	3)  No Psychological Disadvantages 
> 
>	Under the section 'Normal Computers,' however, it states: 
>	...  They cannot have Disadvantages. 
> 
>	In the only other Champions book I have acquired, 'Underworld Enemies,' 
>the write up includes the following for a Normal Computer known as  
>'The Gallows' (pg. 44): 
>	Disadvantages 
>   20 | Physical Limitation: Must obey creator's orders 
>   20 | Physical Limitation: Computer 
>   20 | Distinctive Features: Computer (Not Conc, Major Reaction) 
>   10 | DNPC: Creator (As Powerful), 14- 
> 
>	You assistance would be greatly appreciated.  Reference to other 
>computers in HERO and how they are normally dealt with would be greatly 
>appreciated. 
>	Thank you. 
>							Jason 
> 
 
Well, usually you can buy phys lims to represent faults *goes off if 
someone bumps the screen, keyboard locks up, ect) and 'psys lims' 
should be done as phys lims. .. after all,  software ain't wetware. 
 
PS: not that kind of wetware. . . or THAT kind of wetware. .. or-  
oh, forget it *g* 
 
 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:08:01 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 12 
 
 
> > Hey.  Actually, I do like what he's done for the system.  I think 
> > his contributions can be ranked only behind Allston's. 
> 
> In magnitude, yes, but only as an absolute value calculation. :] 
 
	Now, now. 
 
>         1) The "do what you want, it's your campaign" response.  Most of 
>         the people I know take this as a cop-out, even given that it's 
>         now Hero Games corporate policy. 
> 
>         2) The exact, by-the-book, "fundamentalist" answer.  That's all 
>         Rat (or, for that matter, me, really) does when he responds -- 
>         he gives what he thinks is the best answer possible taken from 
>         the book. 
 
	Well, I'll offer a third "optional" rules-based construction, 
based on things like the HSAs, NH, and the Ultimate Books. 
 
> > Hmmm.  I rather like this approach, actually.  It seems to fit >with 
> Rat's "god has spoken" approach to anything revolving around Linked >or 
> Steve Long. 
> 
> As opposed to your own "Long has spoken" approach? :] 
 
	Now that's not fair.  I have my own constructs, some of which 
agree with Long, some don't.  I don't claim to be "The Truth", however, 
which I see Rat doing, or seeming to do, quite often.  I will lend a 
strong voice against him, but I feel obligated as Gazza's not around to do 
it.  He filled that role back when he was around. 
 
> Depends on which construction.  Some of Long's constructions are simply 
> broken. 
 
	I really disagree with that statement.  Heck, I actually see 
reason for that Focus rather than follower Computer construction. 
 
>  Others are, on paper, legal but unnecessary (mostly the ones that 
> duplicate skill effects -- you're paying points for something that a 
> competent GM would allow the normal skill to do). 
 
	Well, I think competent should be replaced by liberal there. 
There are some skill effects I will put about out of reach to normal 
skill.  That's what the power-based skills are for. 
 
> As I've mentioned before (in a discussion on Dark Champions), the problem is 
> not HOW liberal Long is, but WHEN.  He resorts to "liberal" (or, as Sean 
> Fannon might put it, "interesting") constructions that bend or even outright 
> break the BBB rules WHEN HE DIDN'T HAVE TO.  I know you think the majority 
> of these cases amount to his intent to somehow simulate the genre better, 
> but if he really thinks the 
 
	More like rules modifications, and they don't actually break BBB 
construction, just apply it in new ways. 
 
> skills (Veil, Cloak, and Facade).  But really, GURPS Psionics is a superior 
> supplement -- FOR HERO -- in terms of campaign material and ideas, and 
 
	Hmmm.  Well, I didn't really want campaign material, I wanted 
clarified and expanded Hero mental rules.  I got them, and was quite 
happy. 
 
> there's a LOT of Long's bad habits at work again (the duplicate effects of 
> Psych Lims on Mind Control, the unnecessary changes to Mind Scan, and the 
> execrable Desolid and Invisibility constructions). 
 
	One man's garbage is another's treasure.  I like the Desol and 
Invis constructs.  And the Mind Scan changes make sense to me.  As for the 
Mental Combat maneuvers, well, I don't really like the ones in the book. 
I like Long's original ones better -- the ones in the book were from 
Peterson, I believe. 
 
> On the other hand, as I've mentioned before, the bit where the book claims 
> to be a universal gaming supplement rather than a HERO sourcebook is a laugh 
> and a half. 
 
 
	Oh, quite.  But that was of course thrown in by Hero in an attempt 
to get more sales.  They can try all they want, I don't mind. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites?? 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 02:15:10 +0000 (GMT) 
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>  
> << I have to throw my hat in here to that restricting FTL to out of atmosphere 
> prevents several comic book powers from being done in a reasonable cost within 
> hero. It needs some kind of in-atmosphere variation.>> 
>  
>   I agree totally. Perhaps this is something that could be addressed if we 
> publish a 5th Edition? Or am I opening a new can of worms?  ;) 
>  
>   Mark @ GRG 
>  
	GOTCHA! :) 
Heh... 
heh heh... 
 
	He's said it might happen. And he's opened the door to ideas for what 
it might have. I'd post mine if I hadn't just done it two weeks ago. 
	Maybe I should add it to my website under a 'wishful thinking' 
section. :) (Ok, so I don't believe it will see the light of day for 
some time, but I can hope.) 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:17:40 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
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At 07:52 PM 12/10/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
> 
>> powers bought as martial arts 'skill' are deffinintly th way to go. . . 
>> on several martial ars guys i've had, spd and dex drains work well 
>> as join-breaks and such. .. I think trying to make hero a 'skill-based' 
> 
>	Hmmm.  But those drains would need *massive* amounts of increased 
>time to be realistic.  I'd rather use the disbling rules and a nice Joint 
>Breaking HKA. 
> 
>			-Tim Gilberg 
 
well, why not transform? and if yor going to go all the way, most of your 
opponents will either be  
 
A) tough enough to avoid the worst of the injury- defined as both 
having higher stats *and* getting points back kinda quickly, or 
 
B) about to have their heads stomped on as soon as you get them to 0 spd.  
 
I'd rather stick to the basic system than add etra bits.. .  
 
 
 
> 
> 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 02:25:59 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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>  
>   I have a question for the masses, though. Would anyone like to see more 
> "Cardboard Heroes" type of products? I don't think it would be too difficult 
> to do, even as a one sheet insert in a book or as a one sheet tear-out. 
> Thoughts? 
> 
 
YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!  
YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
 
	I see this one come up all the time in chat groups, gurps forums, 
hero forums, and even in the stores. 
 
  
        \     /    |------     /----\  
         \   /     |           | 
          \ /      |___         \---\ 
           |       |                 |   
           |       |                 / 
           |       |------      \---/ 
 
	(Is that clear enough?) 
 
	One really good idea from V&V is the idea of having all the NPC's 
from each book on a carboard insert. Add a few blank ones for people to 
do up PC's or whatever; and you're set to go. 
 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 10 Dec 1997 21:27:17 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
TRG> 	Hmmm.  Yes, except smashing two together would be a disadvantage 
TRG> as spending the same points on one power would be more efficient. 
 
Is it?  I get two different types of "damage" in a single attack.  That is 
certainly more useful to me than an attack that has only one type of 
"damage". 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes: 
 
VL> Sounds good, except that it doesn't fit the description of the power. 
VL> p.  65: "A character with this Standard Power can attack at range. 
VL> To use an Energy Blast, the character states his target and makes an 
VL> Attack Roll."  Seems pretty straightforward -- a use of energy blast IS 
VL> an attack, and requires an Attack Roll. 
 
Go read the section on Presence Attacks, specifically the example of the 
guy blasting the tree, making a presence attack, then blasting the troll. 
 
Wonky or not, either the example in the BBB is wrong, or you are wrong. 
 
I am with the BBB on this one until someone from Hero Games comes out and 
states that the example is broken. 
 
VL> Really, PRE attacks are inherently wonky anyhow.  After all, the 
VL> example of Howler on p. 171 has her making a REAL ATTACK (nailing an 
VL> agent), THEN making the PRE attack.  Strictly speaking, this should be 
VL> illegal whether she's using a Power or not, yes/no? 
 
Presence attacks are "no time" actions.  They may be made at any time 
during one's action phase. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:39:03 +1000 
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Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
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At 09:46 AM 12/10/97 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>Really, PRE attacks are inherently wonky anyhow.  After all, the example of 
>Howler on p. 171 has her making a REAL ATTACK (nailing an agent), THEN 
>making the PRE attack.  Strictly speaking, this should be illegal whether 
>she's using a Power or not, yes/no?  
> 
 
No. A prescence attack takes no time, just like an oratory.  
It does not exist in the normal turn-based perspective.  
A power attack was used to offer a solid general example  
of a violent action, as opposed to one which could be  
interpreted in diferent ways by different gms.  
 
 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Things I expect in a Champions supplement 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 02:44:00 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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>  
> In Deadlands they produce Dime Novel Adventures where they write up the  
> scenario with the stock characters from the rule book so that by the time  
> you get to the gaming info you already know the story, you've read it in  
> novel form!! It's neat and it does help get a handle on the intricacies and  
> the flow of the story, would people like to see a mini-comic using stock  
> characters with each adventure?? I know _loads_ of would be comic book  
> artists who would sell their soul to get the opportunity for such exposure... 
 
	That's a cool idea. HOWEVER; it was by doing this very thing that 
Fuzion took a lot of heat. HOWEVER; Castle Falkenstien and Storyteller 
have been praised for it. 
 
	I think I would like it PROVIDED it DID NOT shorten the amount of 
other, useful info, provided to me. 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:21:34 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
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>>If I have to go running to the library for information already, it's only a 
>>smidgen more effort to put the style together myself.   Knowing the 
>>game mechanics of Than Vo Dao or Re-Efi Areh Ehsee does me little to no good 
>>without that material -- if I can't describe to my players how an NPC with 
>>this style is moving and fighting, I can't really get effective use out of 
>>that art. 
 
Ah, but knowing: 
 
A.) that the style 'exists' (even if only in the dubious credibility of Mr. 
Long - Jailhouse Rock indeed! What was wrong with 'dirty infighting'?) 
B.) where the style originates/who uses it (most of the descriptions give at 
least this much) 
 
You _can_ track down the interesting stuff in the library. If they had just 
stuck to a few arts and done them in detail, you wouldn't have that. 
 
Okay, it's a weak argument *^_^*. I would have _loved_ more individual style 
detail - especially on stuff the average westerner at least touches on - 
Karate, Kung Fu, Sumo, Fencing, Boxing, Pro Wrestling, Jui-Jitsu, Pentjak 
Silat, etc. Handing out a maneuvers list for stuff like Re-Efi Areh-Ehsee 
and Hisardut really was a waste of space (as were the fictional styles. 
Barf, though I did like Takijutsu, mostly for the nifty 'mystical' powers). 
 
What _really_ should have been in TUMA is guidelines for simulating 
Wuxia-style martial arts action - flying swords, incredible leaps and feats, 
etc., all of which would work in a superheroic setting nicely (though you 
can get pointers on Surbrook's web pages). Ninja Hero did a nice job of 
segregating the various levels of martial arts sillyness - I wish TUMA could 
have expanded on the idea. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:49:05 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: The Great(?) Linked Debate. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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-- This is my first exposure to what people have called the great linked  
debate.  I can now understand peoples panic when linked is mentioned  
anywhere on the list.  Who would have that that such a "simple" little  
disad could cause so much heated discussions? 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:49:24 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Sabotage 
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At 10:22 AM 12/10/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   Something occurred to me yesterday that should be in TUSV, but isn't in 
>the current manuscript: sabotage.  This happens quite frequently in movies 
>and stuff, and so should have some rules covering it. 
>   My problem is, I'm not sure how it should be handled. 
>   What I'm leaning toward is this (to give a simplified version):  The 
>saboteur decides what he wants to do to the vehicle, and the GM assigns an 
>appropriate Skill, just like a normal application.  And, of course, there's 
>a difficulty penalty for what the saboteur is trying to do: 
> 
>   Disabling a Device: -1 per ten Active Points being shut off. 
>   Planting a Device (such as a bomb or remote control): -1 per ten Active 
>Points being added. 
>   Weakening a Device (such as Burnout Rolls, Extra Time Limitation, etc.): 
>-1 per -1/4 Limitation being imposed on a device. 
> 
>   Does anyone have any feedback or further suggestions?  I haven't 
>dedicated anything to the actual manuscript yet (I'm still putting in stuff 
>based on the recent discussion on locks -- thanks gang!), so the section is 
>still open. 
>--- 
 
how about these as a start for how 'into' the vehicle the sabotuer must be- 
 
simple job- -3 (just walk by, casually pull out a wire or chuck on a  
limpet mine) 
 
major work- 0 (needs a work station, has to pop the hood, ect) 
 
infiltration- +3? (climing inside a big vehicle, or maybe just shrinking down. .  
 
dismantling - +4? (pull the thing apart and 'saw the axles', ext. . .) 
 
 
> 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:56:30 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
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On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
> You _can_ track down the interesting stuff in the library. If they had just 
> stuck to a few arts and done them in detail, you wouldn't have that. 
 
Steve should have listed his source material somewhere.  I have found some 
very interesting material on the martial arts in UMA, but only because I 
have a taijutsu instructor as a close friend. 
  
> Okay, it's a weak argument *^_^*. I would have _loved_ more individual style 
> detail - especially on stuff the average westerner at least touches on - 
> Karate, Kung Fu, Sumo, Fencing, Boxing, Pro Wrestling, Jui-Jitsu, Pentjak 
> Silat, etc. Handing out a maneuvers list for stuff like Re-Efi Areh-Ehsee 
> and Hisardut really was a waste of space (as were the fictional styles. 
> Barf, though I did like Takijutsu, mostly for the nifty 'mystical' powers). 
 
Including the two arts you mentioned wouldn't be a waste if more 
information was given.  When was the art created, who uses it, what does 
it look like? 
  
> What _really_ should have been in TUMA is guidelines for simulating 
> Wuxia-style martial arts action - flying swords, incredible leaps and feats, 
> etc., all of which would work in a superheroic setting nicely (though you 
> can get pointers on Surbrook's web pages). Ninja Hero did a nice job of 
> segregating the various levels of martial arts sillyness - I wish TUMA could 
> have expanded on the idea. 
 
Heh, thanks John.  Actually, I've wanted to write Wuxia Hero  for a _very_ 
long time.  At the moment I am planning on drafting a proposal to GRG, 
since Mark has expressed some interest in hearing more about the project. 
If he says yes, I'll probably ask for suggestions on what should go into 
such a book (to round out all the stuff I know should have been in there). 
 
Heh, the best part about this plan is the research! 
 
(okay, we got Big Trouble and Ninja Scroll and Ranma 1/2 and Fong Sai Yuk 
and Bride With the White Hair and Kid From Tibet and Zu and A Chinese 
Ghost Story and a zillion Dragonball Z episodes...  Mike is ready to 
write!) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:11:58 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
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> Nice phrasing... makes one wonder exactly what Vox did to Steve to get him 
> to make said ruling.:) ("Reverse that ruling or I'll make you throw out 
> the Hero System for a fixed power list system and rework the Champions U 
> to emulate a style of comics which not only sucks but is dying in the 
> marketplace!" Oh wait... they actually _did_ that...) 
 
 
	Deja Vu to Austen Powers there.  Anyone who's seen it knows the 
scene I'm talking about. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:26:54 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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--  
----------Robert A. West wrote: 
>  
> Rick Holding wrote: 
> > 
> > -- Robert A. West wrote: 
> > ><<snip>> 
>  
> > > 
> > > Thus, I would hold that a Drain BODY cannot be used for this purpose. 
> > > Drain Movement might have an SFX of injuring a leg, but severing the 
> > > limb is not generally a reasonable special effect, unless regrowing limbs 
> > > is an everyman power. 
> > 
> >         Why not?  In a world where powers are defined by special effects, why 
> > can't a body drain be represented by eventual lose of limbs? 
>  
> Sorry, I left out a piece of the argument, assuming that it would be 
> clear.  If you represent limb loss by a Drain, then what happens when the 
> Drain fades?  Doesn't the limb logically have to regrow?  Also, remember 
> that the fade rate is unaffected by the target, so it will fade just as 
> fast for feeble Aunt May as for Spiderman.  This just has the wrong look 
> and feel for my taste. 
> 	I am fully aware that drains fade.  But even the write up for Drain says "By  
moving the return rate far down the time chart, it is possible to effectively destroy  
an opponent's characteristic or power." 
 
> > What about a 
> > vorpal blade?  It does normal damage and on an 8- activation (5-, whatever) the 
> > target suffers 1-2D6 body drain, recovery time shifted into the far future. 
>  
> Fine, you sever my arm with recovery 5 pts/year(+2 1/4)!  Even if I am 
> the worst bozo in the world, I will bud a new arm after a couple of 
> months, and get it back in a year or eighteen months. 
 
	Continueing from above.  Moving the recovery down to 5pts/year is not  
anywhere near far enough.  Make it recover 1 character point per 100 years          
(+3? +3 1/2?).  This means immortals will grow back lost body parts.  Why not?  Being  
immortal probarly should include some sort of slow regen.  But normals will not  
regrow lost limbs. 
------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
 
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net> 
Subject: RE: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:29:49 -0800 
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>> It really doesn't matter whether you play this the other way around or  
not. 
>>  This is mostly a "points thingy" that makes the smaller Power cheaper. 
>>  When using this Power/Linked Power, _I_, the player choose the Power  
Level 
>> I want to use (assuming I didn't add a Limitation like "Beam Attack"). 
>>  What this means is that I could fire off an attack that does 12d6  
EB/3d6 
>> Flash, one that does 12d6 EB/0d6 Flash, or 1d6 EB/3d6 Flash (maybe even  
0d6 
>> EB/3d6 Flash, so long as 1 END is spent for the EB when using the  
Powers). 
> 
>	Nooooooo! 
> 
>	That really doesn't work.  Not at all. 
> 
>	No matter which interpretation you use, which camp you side with, 
> running the limitation like that is just a plain old points crock. 
 
Hmmm, quite interesting.  I certainly understand your point, though I am  
not in total agreement with it.  There is nothing in the rules that  
prohibit my interpretation. 
 
Unless I take something like beam effect, or maybe an ultra MP slot, I can  
use _any_ power I have at any strength (assuming such a thing makes sense  
for the Power).  Now your telling me that this no longer applies if I use  
Linked?  I don't think so! 
 
I do see what you think this is a points crock though, and thanks for  
pointing it out.  I'm going to have to think about this aspect some more. 
 
As far as other's comments go about making you use them linked powers  
proportionately, that's potentially a very good idea for a house rule ...  
so long as one is not forced to use the linked power when one uses the  
non-limited power it is linked to. 
 
> Basically, you get a -1/2 on a power for absolutely no disadvantage, save 
> having to spend 1 END on another power for a 0 level.  This means there  
is 
> no reason not to take every power linked. 
 
Well, yes and no.  You shouldn't make such broad based statements when  
there are many exceptions.  For example, there could easily be limitations  
on the power 'linked-to'  (or even SFX reasons) that keep it from working.  
 Thus, the linked power can't be used either, thus, it's a limitation.  As  
a GM, I better not see those same Limitations on the Power with the Linked  
Limitation ... but of course, I am sure there are exceptions to that too. 
 
But yes, there is a huge potential for abuse here, and Linked probably  
deserves a Magnifying glass next to it.  GM's should carefully examine any  
use of Linked to make sure it's truly a Limitation.  It's very hard to  
generalize though.  You need to look at it case by case. 
 
> That's easy.  Because there is no such thing as "Linkable". 
> Powers that are linked have become a new Metapower.  They aren't  
seperate. 
> Having two powers be seperate and together isn't allowed at all, even  
with 
> any type of advantage.  Buy them all seperately, in a MP if you wish. 
 
But on this, we most certainly disagree!  Your stating a rules  
interpretation, and one the rules do not actually support very well ..  
though they do not deny the possibility either.  Since both of us will  
state that our viewpoints are common sense ... then obviously it's not.  
 :-) 
 
			~ Mike 
 
From: Pat10355 <Pat10355@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:37:53 EST 
Subject: Subscribe 
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Subscribe pat10355@aol.com 
 
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net> 
Subject: RE: Re[2]: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:02:39 -0800 
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>(For the REALLY munchkinoid constructions, one should check out -The  
>Ultimate Mentalist- -- worth the money for the laugh value alone). 
 
In my opinion, that is the best of the Ultimate books written so far.  Not that I'll use/allow everything in it. 
 
 
			~ Mike 
 
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net> 
Subject: RE: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:08:32 -0800 
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I have both, and of the two, I prefer Ninja Hero for several reasons.  Much  
has already been written on the subject, so I won't go into this at length. 
 
I feel the rules are better written up in Ninja Hero (i.e. more balanced).  
 I thought Ninja Hero had too many Martial Arts styles.  UMA really gets  
seriously carried away ... lots of wasted paper there.  I also like the  
whole campaign thing at the back of Ninja Hero. 
 
So far, UMA is the only one of the Ultimate series that I did not like.  
 There are some useful things in it, but nothing you can't live without. 
 
				~ Mike 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:11:10 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
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>  
> Funny... I generally prefer to have the PCs be a mid-level hero group. 
> The X-Men rather than the Avengers, so to speak. (Well, without the 
> pretension and angst.:)) 
 
Maybe, but the X-Men have fought the Avengers and did just fine, so I'm 
not sure if I agree they are not roughly the same level.  Mind you, both 
teams change so much, at any given moment either team might have a huge 
edge.:) 
 
>  
> Mind you, I don't think this would be particularly difficult to change. 
> 
 
True, and it's a matter of taste.  I prefer for a team to be the big one's 
in city, but not the #1 team in the country.  This is not even assuming 
the US, my R.I.S.K. game has the team as the official superhero team of 
Luxembourg (it's a long story;) 
 
TokyoMark 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:18:28 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
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>  
> Nice phrasing... makes one wonder exactly what Vox did to Steve to get him 
> to make said ruling.:) ("Reverse that ruling or I'll make you throw out 
> the Hero System for a fixed power list system and rework the Champions U 
> to emulate a style of comics which not only sucks but is dying in the 
> marketplace!" Oh wait... they actually _did_ that...) 
 
Heh.:)  Well, if you mean books not based on the Golden Age, I have to 
disagree.  As far as I know they are doing pretty well in the market 
place.  If you mean the 'blood drenched spiked hair guys and bad girls 
with big guns' that the press release talked about, yep, it's hurting. 
But I didn't see alot of that in C:TNM.  My main complaInt with the game 
still is that they didn't so much update it as do a totally new alternate 
universe, with new totally different origins for characters.  I liked Dr. 
Destroyer as Al Zerstoiten (sp) the ex-nazi world destroyer, not as a 
millenium old force:).  I did a whole campaign (Something like 4 years 
worth) based on what if Dr. D decided to take over the world instead of 
destroying it, withn Dr. D as a more Dr. Doom like figure.  It worked 
pretty well. 
 
TokyoMark 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:42:54 +1000 
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At 12:18 AM 12/11/97 -0500, Tokyo Mark wrote: 
>>  
>> Nice phrasing... makes one wonder exactly what Vox did to Steve to get him 
>> to make said ruling.:) ("Reverse that ruling or I'll make you throw out 
>> the Hero System for a fixed power list system and rework the Champions U 
>> to emulate a style of comics which not only sucks but is dying in the 
>> marketplace!" Oh wait... they actually _did_ that...) 
> 
>Heh.:)  Well, if you mean books not based on the Golden Age, I have to 
>disagree.  As far as I know they are doing pretty well in the market 
>place.  If you mean the 'blood drenched spiked hair guys and bad girls 
>with big guns' that the press release talked about, yep, it's hurting. 
>But I didn't see alot of that in C:TNM.  My main complaInt with the game 
>still is that they didn't so much update it as do a totally new alternate 
>universe, with new totally different origins for characters.  I liked Dr. 
>Destroyer as Al Zerstoiten (sp) the ex-nazi world destroyer, not as a 
>millenium old force:).  I did a whole campaign (Something like 4 years 
>worth) based on what if Dr. D decided to take over the world instead of 
>destroying it, withn Dr. D as a more Dr. Doom like figure.  It worked 
>pretty well. 
 
I think there is a reduction at least in the 'airtime' given to the  
image-ect genre style. It isn't about the golden age, it's about 
overused cliche. Sure, the major companies have stereotypic plots  
for their characters (just look at spidey's sudden backflip), but 
it's better by far than painting the entire uiverse with one brush.  
 
And yes, I agree that they mutilated a perfectly good setting for  
nothing-  why couldn't dr D just kill them the 'old-fasioned' way,  
with a bunch of giant robots? Or they could have wiped out the  
heros in a full-scale dark gritty superwar. Actually, the C:mn  
universe is the *only* place i ever want to see a spidey-style  
backflip peformed. . . 
 
 
> 
>TokyoMark 
> 
> 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:43:37 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
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cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
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I can't sit out this debate, now that my finals are over.:) 
 
Having Ninja Hero helps if you buy UMA because NH has the sections they 
SHOULD have had in UMA but didn't.  The section with the asian names from 
various countries was left out, only to be later reprinted in Watchers of 
the Dragon. 
 
They still have my own personal pet peeve in UMA, the mega ninjato (ninja 
sword).  Why they have this sword doing the damage of a katana with a +1 
stun multiplier added on is beyond me.  I assumed it was an error in NH. 
 
I usually like the Steven Long stuff, but now and then I think he's out in 
left field.  The stances were unnecessary.  I could have done without Zen 
Riflery, and ranged martial arts in general, but I'll admit they bring 
thrown weapons up to a more cinematic level. 
 
The fictional martial arts are a mixed bag, some are pretty good, some 
I'll never use.  The real martial arts need a little more detail at 
times./  And many of them could have been left out totally (Jail House 
Rock, for example), while bigger name martial arts were left out.  Russian 
Sambo is not a variation on amatuer wrestling, it has more in common with 
Jujutsu and seemingly would have merited a write up.  And in pro wrestling 
Lucha Libre is about as far from real as pro wrestling gets.:) 
 
> What _really_ should have been in TUMA is guidelines for simulating 
> Wuxia-style martial arts action - flying swords, incredible leaps and feats, 
> etc., all of which would work in a superheroic setting nicely (though you 
> can get pointers on Surbrook's web pages). Ninja Hero did a nice job of 
> segregating the various levels of martial arts sillyness - I wish TUMA could 
> have expanded on the idea. 
 
I wish they had done alot more Wuxia also, but the power level segregation 
in NH was anothet pet peeve.  It was a waste of space to have the same 
basic effect written up four times in four different locations, for 
four different power levels. 
 
TokyoMark 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:50:08 +1000 
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At 12:11 AM 12/11/97 -0500, Tokyo Mark wrote: 
>>  
>> Funny... I generally prefer to have the PCs be a mid-level hero group. 
>> The X-Men rather than the Avengers, so to speak. (Well, without the 
>> pretension and angst.:)) 
> 
>Maybe, but the X-Men have fought the Avengers and did just fine, so I'm 
>not sure if I agree they are not roughly the same level.  Mind you, both 
>teams change so much, at any given moment either team might have a huge 
>edge.:) 
> 
 
It's also the outlaw/sanctioned thing. . if the x-men weren't so  
busy whining and actually FOUGHT CRIME occasionally, they'd 
probably have a 'professional, superior' rivalry with the avengers. .  
then again the avengers don't fight crime at the mo either. . . 
is all that 'hero's recycled' stuff OVER yet??  
 
 
From: Egyptoid <Egyptoid@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 01:06:58 EST 
Subject: LARGE KARZA BOTS 
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 LARGE KARZA-BOT 
                                 Size: 3.2m   Weight: 1.5 tons    Move: 5" 
 ----------DAMAGE---------------------------------------------------------- 
  Stat     CHART:   Power/System/Talents 
 -------------+------------------------------------------------------------ 
  50  STR  2-3| 2   +8 Ranged Combat, +3 Levels all other Skills & Combat 
  18  DEX     |     4 levels Growth, always on 
  50  CON    4|     18 PD/ED Armor, Hardened, Ablative 
  50  BODY    | 3   2d6 HKA, 5x AF (Mecha-Claws) 
  10  INT    5| 4   5d6 RKA, Area Effect One Hex, +1 Stun (Heavy Phaser) 
  10  EGO    6| 5   2d6 RKA, (Variable-Sfx) - (Spite-Gun) {OAF} 
  50  PRE*   7| 6   Flash,4d6, vs Sight&Smell, AVLD, Pers.Immune (Smoke) 
 -10  COM     | 7   6" Swimming (total) 
  22  PD     8| 8   360 degree sight, Infravision, X-Ray Vision (lead,gold) 
  22  ED     9|     +5 to sight PER rolls 
   3  SPD     | 9   Regeneration: 1 Body Per Turn, 1 System per hour. 
   5  REC   10|10   Mind Link: robot, drone, clone, or Karza. (ULF radio) 
  50  END   11|11   4d6 Aid to Stun & End, Continous, Persistent 
  50  STUN  12|12   Invisiblility: Sight,Mental,Radio  Only From Behind 
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 Mental Defense: 16   Power Defense: 16   Flash Def:3 (Site,Hear,Radio) 
 Life Support: Totally Bio-Mechanical: No Aging, No Breathing, 
    No Regular Diseases, Safe in Vac, Pressure, Heat, Cold, Air-Tight, 
    No Sleep Necessary, No Eat, No Excrete either. (Does Need Water) 
 Immunity: Any & All Toxins, Water-Tight 
 Climbing, Stealth, Lip-Reading, Tactics, Combat Sense, Def.Maneuver 
 Absolute Time Sense, Bump of Direction, Lightning Calculator 
 Math, Paramedic, Repair, Sec.Sys, System Ops, Protocol, Military 
 Weapons Familiarities, High Range Radio Hearing, Parabolic Hearing 
 Languages: English, Micronics, French, Acroyear, Binary. 
 
 Disadvantages: 
   Acc.Change: Automaton-like, Body Damage causes shutdowns on an 11-,  
     Roll a Control Dice & 2d6 on Damage Chart above by stats. 
     Control: 1-2, cut stat in half; on 3-4, lose system; 5-6 = do both. 
   DF: Bio-Mechanoid, Huge Mofugly Robot. 
   Psych: Programmed Behaviors (Slay Enemies, Slay Traitors, Guard 
     Important Sites, Protect Resources & Each Other, Protect Karza, etc) 
   Psych: Order Followers           Psych: Death Machine 
   Watched: Baron Karza             Phys.Limit: Huge 
   -1" Running                      * 40 PRE as defensive only. 
  Flash AVLD: Sealed Systems, No Breathe, Mechanoid, Automaton, etc. 
 
 When they take any BODY, (any amount, not per point)  Roll 1 dice 
 for either the stat column, the powers column, or both. Then roll 2d6 
 to see which stat/system is affected. Cut current value of stat in half. 
 Affected powers are lost. If you roll a missing system again, do not 
 re-roll the dice, just take the next one up or down. Systems 9 & 11, 
 the Regen and Aid, and also the Ablative Armor must be repaired externally, 
 once damaged these are lost until the Bot has an hour non-combat with 
 2 other non-damaged bots, or at a shop, to get them fixed. 
    
   Karza's Bots gleam like marvels of bio-technology. They are a mix 
 of nano-technology and cybernetics unmatched by human efforts.  The 
 Robots look like death machines, there is no disguising their gun-barrel 
 arms, their active scanners, and even though not strictly alive, they 
 always convey the feeling of edginess & readiness.  They can move in 
 uncanny silence when necessary, or intentionally clack their walking 
 pods in staccato military rhythm as they march into battle.  When they 
 turn their backs, they can blend in perfectly with a background, as 
 long as it is isn't just a smooth steel wall. They have a quasi-electronic 
 coating system of chameleon camoflage on their backs. Their electronic 
 voices speak highly clipped & speedy versions of regular languages, 
 mainly to relay commands to slaves or challenges to enemies, though they  
 normally communicate silently at modem speeds with each other. 
 
 These are the Large Robots as built by Karza. He's had time to study 
 the hero teams weaknesses, so that's what the Spite-Cartridges are for. 
 If the bot makes an INT roll, it will take a half-phase to load the 
 "correct" cartridge for an opponent. Loads include: Copper Wire Spikes, 
 Salt Crystals, Dry Ice Shrapnel, Acid Bags, Napalm, Nerve Agent Darts, 
 Cold Iron Bullets, Phospho-Briquettes, Radiactive AP Flechettes, Sonic 
 Screech Loads, Wooden Mini-Stakes, Electro-Capacitor Shock Caps, etc, etc. 
 These are designed to thoroughly exploit PC weaknesses. About the only 
 SFX not available are magical ones. The Spite Gun is what makes these 
 bots truly dangerous.  
 
--  
elliott@tmscorp.com 
 
aka egyptoid 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com (Unverified) 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:24:09 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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At 12:56 AM 12/11/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>	Not broken, really.  Buying as focus rather than power is legit 
>for much the same reasons one would buy movement with a focus rather than 
>a vehicle.  It's uder direct character control without worrying about an 
>interface, etc.  Also, the computer would represent your own skills 
>(focused) rather than a follower the GM controlled.  It has it's merits, 
>and one flaw -- more expensive. 
 
Uh, no.  This is why I keep saying that Long often seems like he doesn't 
understand the rules.  The first computer construction on p. 99 is 
explicitly supposed to be a "conventional" computer; THEN he gives an 
example of the direct-character approach in the "mini-computer" following it. 
 
In any case, there's a reason =why= computers (at least, those constructed 
to the rules on p. 181-183 BBB) are bought as followers: these are, in 
essence, entirely different characters.  If one is buying "direct control" 
abilities, you must skip the INT, DEX, etc. (to the best of my knowledge, 
you can't have duplicate characteristics :/), and your computer will not be 
able to act on its own.  There's nothing wrong with the "mini-computer" 
approach (buying Focussed skills instead of using the standard Computer rules),  
 
>> I didn't see a reason to break Mind Scan out of the pattern established by 
>> the other Mental Powers; the biggest change (making it a Constant power) 
>> seems to be another example of "I don't grok the original rule so I'll 
>> just write on top of it". 
> 
>	Hmmm.  This rule really struck me as a collaborated addition by 
>the HeroGames editors fixing what they saw as a problem.  I think it works 
>more like MindScan should, really. 
 
That would suggest the Hero Games editors have actual opinions about the 
game rules, which in the past hasn't seemed to be the case. :] 
 
--  
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com (Unverified) 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:24:11 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: nuts playing wiers stuff (Re: San Angelo) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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At 12:36 AM 12/11/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote: 
>	But seriously, what's wrong with a faerie? The faerie realm has 
>long been a staple of both the fantasy and super genres. 
 
In and of itself, there's probably nothing wrong with faerie (assuming we're 
talking about actual medieval lore and not Tinkerbell) characters. 
 
In my own experience, people who've asked to play this kind of character 
more often than not don't really grok superheroes, tending to fall into the 
class "People who really wanted to play in a different genre" (like the 
players who wanted to use a Sardukar, a Kzin warrior, and a D&D illithid, 
respectively).  But that's just the players I happen to know (and it didn't 
stop me from putting Fey into my campaign notes on magic anyhow). 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
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| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com (Unverified) 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:24:14 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Things I expect in a Champions supplement 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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At 02:44 AM 12/11/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote: 
>> In Deadlands they produce Dime Novel Adventures where they write up the  
>> scenario with the stock characters from the rule book so that by the time  
>> you get to the gaming info you already know the story, you've read it in  
>> novel form!! It's neat and it does help get a handle on the intricacies 
>> and the flow of the story, would people like to see a mini-comic using 
>> stock characters with each adventure?? I know _loads_ of would be comic 
>> book artists who would sell their soul to get the opportunity for such 
>> exposure... 
> 
>	That's a cool idea. HOWEVER; it was by doing this very thing that 
>Fuzion took a lot of heat. HOWEVER; Castle Falkenstien and Storyteller 
>have been praised for it. 
>	I think I would like it PROVIDED it DID NOT shorten the amount of 
>other, useful info, provided to me. 
 
Long time ago, I read someone critiquing the game industry for being 
stricken with "frustrated author's syndrome" -- that too much stuff seemed 
to be written primarily to allow the developer to vent a desire to be 
publishing "real" books. 
 
To me, it comes down to asking whether or not the embedded fiction REALLY 
serves the GM in understanding the adventure, or whether it just serves the 
writer in getting F.A.S. off his chest. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
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| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:49:35 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
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> > Funny... I generally prefer to have the PCs be a mid-level hero group. 
> > The X-Men rather than the Avengers, so to speak. (Well, without the 
> > pretension and angst.:)) 
> 
> Maybe, but the X-Men have fought the Avengers and did just fine, so I'm 
> not sure if I agree they are not roughly the same level.  Mind you, both 
> teams change so much, at any given moment either team might have a huge 
> edge.:) 
 
	Um.  I really think it depends if the Avenger Big Boys show up or 
not.  They have legit Cosmic-level heroes, the X-Men don't.  There are a 
few on that team that could take on the entire X-Men team, let's say Thor 
and Iron Man (OK, he's elsewhere, now, but . . ) for starters. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:56:19 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
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> >	I really disagree with that statement.  Heck, I actually see 
> >reason for that Focus rather than follower Computer construction. 
> 
> I might have my reasons for mugging you, but it's still illegal. Broke is 
> broke is broke is broke. :/ 
 
	Not broken, really.  Buying as focus rather than power is legit 
for much the same reasons one would buy movement with a focus rather than 
a vehicle.  It's uder direct character control without worrying about an 
interface, etc.  Also, the computer would represent your own skills 
(focused) rather than a follower the GM controlled.  It has it's merits, 
and one flaw -- more expensive. 
 
> Hand).  But many of the Dark Champions constructions don't seem to really 
> take into account what IS in reach for a normal skill. 
 
	GM's call here, really.  Depends on what type of modifiers a 
typical GM will give out.  For me, if it's a Super-level campaign, I'd 
require some of those for the really big tricks. 
 
> I didn't see a reason to break Mind Scan out of the pattern established by 
> the other Mental Powers; the biggest change (making it a Constant power) 
> seems to be another example of "I don't grok the original rule so I'll just 
> write on top of it". 
 
	Hmmm.  This rule really struck me as a collaborated addition by 
the HeroGames editors fixing what they saw as a problem.  I think it works 
more like MindScan should, really. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 02:00:53 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
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> >The fictional martial arts are a mixed bag, some are pretty good, some 
> >I'll never use.  The real martial arts need a little more detail at 
> >times./  And many of them could have been left out totally (Jail House 
> >Rock, for example), while bigger name martial arts were left out.  Russian 
> >Sambo is not a variation on amatuer wrestling, it has more in common with 
> >Jujutsu and seemingly would have merited a write up.  And in pro wrestling 
> >Lucha Libre is about as far from real as pro wrestling gets.:) 
>  
> It could be worse.  The Street Fighter RPG equates Sambo with *professional* 
> wrestling. (Sorry, WW, there are no piledrivers in Sambo). 
 
I managed to wipe that from my mind until just now, gee thanks:). 
 
Yeah, I remember now, piledrivers, powerbombs, the works.  I'm feeling 
inspired now, tommorrow I'll finally sit down and write up Sambo.  the 
only thing now is to figure out a way to make joint breaks more effective. 
Even in human level games I usually see them get ignored for more potent 
attacks. 
 
TokyoMark 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:07:14 +1000 
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At 10:47 PM 12/10/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote: 
>> Seriously, this was always something that annoyed me about previous 4E 
>> products, where they advanced the timeline on their own schedule and assumed 
>> that the Champions (or whatever other hero group the author liked best) have 
>> already run through all their modules.  The more books get published, the 
>> further "behind" your campaign becomes, diverging further and further from 
>> the universe until you're rewriting every supplement you buy practically 
>> from scratch.   
>> 
>	Yeah, I noticed that in 'Champions Universe' they obsoleted a lot 
>of the old modules by stating that "The Champions had done it already". 
> 
>	This things work best when suppliments are as non-campaign 
>intrusive as possible. Otherwise you have to do major rewrites to use 
>them. Once you have to do that you're better off just using home-made 
>stuff. 
> 
> 
 
I think a good balace of 'campaign' against 'Intrusive' is a plus. . . 
the basic dialogue would be 'instead of tracking the champions timeline,  
let's give a general timeline for everythig ELSE, since the  
champions-equivalents are the bits the pc's and gm will be making up 
dealing with  
 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 02:07:32 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
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> 	Um.  I really think it depends if the Avenger Big Boys show up or 
> not.  They have legit Cosmic-level heroes, the X-Men don't.  There are a 
> few on that team that could take on the entire X-Men team, let's say Thor 
> and Iron Man (OK, he's elsewhere, now, but . . ) for starters. 
 
I think Thor was around for one of the battles, but could be wrong.  The 
big edge the X-Men have is all those mentalists.  It's already been shown 
Rogue can absorb Thor fully, so he's out of action.  Wolverine matches up 
well with Capt. A.  I think it's alot more even than you might think.   
 
And being Cosmic is not all it's cracked up to be, Spidey beat up a Herald 
of Galactus once (Firelord).:) 
 
TokyoMark 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 02:16:43 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
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Subject: Re: To Steven Brust Readers 
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> -- It may not be as bad as you think.  The teleports were never used with-in  
> combat as htus could be considered as non combat teleports only.  This would  
> mean lots of non combat multiples with very little in the way of basic  
> teleport.  A single floating location gotten by the use of telepathy and a  
> couple of extra increases of mass.  The only thing that could hike the price up  
> would be useable by others.  I thought of on others but no examples were ever  
> shown of somebody else being teleported against their will. 
 
In Jhereg (I think) it's stated it takes about 3 seconds to concentrate to 
T-port, so they aren't used in combat, which makes sense.  All T-ports 
also seem to be place to place rather than short distances.  I would say 
at least some people do have usable against others, since they don't seem 
to give the power for another to use.  They actually teleport the person 
themselves.  Uasable by others would simply let Aliera give Vlad the 
ability to t-port, which he already has (with the side effect of getting 
sick). 
 
>  
> 	Most of the other effects were standard attacks with strange special  
> effects.  Of course, there was the teleport block (small hardened force wall  
> transparent to energy and physical?), the block to stop resurrection and  
> resurrection itself.  (Anybody want to restart the bringing back the dead  
> debate?) 
 
But a big hardened force wall, tports only, 0 end and covering up to a 
block.  Pretty big points there.  The reviving thing I'll definately do 
with a house rule of some sort.   
 
This was one of the best parts of the world, IMHO.  Not that people could 
be brought back from the dead, D&D had that for years.  But thte fact that 
death is looked at differently because of this.  This is a world where 
'killing' somoene and leaving them so they can be revived can be 
considered sending the person a message;) 
 
>  
> 	The link to the orb was a right of the nobility (2 or 5 point perk) and  
> was used as the local clock (absolute time sense).  To use sorcery required  
> that the link be there (-1/4 limit) and could be blocked by a special rock or  
> if the orb was in the land of the dead.  Oh, yea.  The use of teleport on  
> Easteners made them want to barf. 
 
Technically the link to the orb was a right of all imperial citizens, 
including Teckla, the peasants of the world.  They just lacked the skills 
to use the power.  Easterners only got the link by becoming citizens 
(usually this meant buying a title in the Jhereg).  I don't think I'd make 
sorcery requiring the link to the Orb a limitation.  The link is never 
broken except one isolated case, except as part of an empire wide plot 
device. 
 
>  
> 	Witchcraft on the other hand was ritualistic, required components for  
> the most part and the use of a familiar to handle some of the more extreme  
> energy requirements.  And there was no spur of the moment casting.  Players  
> would need to have a pre-prepared list of their "spells" and inventing new  
> spells was an experience. 
 
True.  But it's also true spells could be improvised, like when Vlad used 
effectively a extradimensional teleport to bring something from his room 
to the Paths of the Dead.  It seemed to be a variation on ritual 
sympathetic magic.  It's certainly true it took alot of energy, time, and 
concentration. 
 
TokyoMark 
 
 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 01:31:54 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
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At 11:50 AM 12/11/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>BG>    I may be missing something here.  Where in the Arkelos example does 
>BG> it say that the Energy Blast that shatters the tree is done as a 
>BG> 0-Phase action? 
> 
>Activation of a power is a 0-phase action. 
>Presence attacks are no time actions. 
 
That's not said in the Arkelos example, Rat, that's just restating your 
opinion as fact. 
 
To play Devil's Advocate, this breakdown is also consistent with the book 
example: 
* Activation of a power is a 0-Phase action. 
 
* Activation of a power that requires an attack roll unavoidably attaches a 
1/2 Phase action to the 0-Phase action. 
 
* Most importantly, nothing in the example says the tree attack and PRE 
attack take place on the SAME Phase, ergo it proves nothing except that 
being violent makes PRE attacks more effective (which is what it was trying 
to illustrate). 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 01:31:57 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
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At 11:45 AM 12/11/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>A poor example, I think.  Try this one: which is more useful, a 12D6 EB 
>vs. ED, or a 6D6 EB vs. ED and a 3D6 Flash?  Everyone has PD and ED, not 
>everyone has Flash Defense.  "Linked" becomes more useful than raw damage 
>as you start adding powers with less common defenses. 
 
I picked that example because I think the ABOVE is a poor (or rather, 
misleading) example.  As I said, "less common" is an illusion.  The roughly 
same percentage of people have Flash Defense as have Flash, much the same as 
the same percentage of characters have PD as have normal damage attacks (all 
of them).   
 
Ergo, don't compare the linked construction just to EB, but also to a 
full=point FLASH.  You're still sacrificing the effectiveness of those 
points to split against two defenses -- points of EB which "plink" against 
the target's PD/ED could have been spent on the Flash where they would have 
had an effect. 
 
>The Linked limitation does not take this into account. 
 
... perhaps because it may have been designed under the philosophy "all 
other things being equal ...". 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
From: Doc Weird <DocWeird@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 03:14:12 EST 
Subject: Re: To Steven Brust Readers 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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In a message dated 97-12-10 06:59:05 EST, you write: 
 
<<   Since sorcery technically is just 
 drawing on power from the Orb and using it with a skill roll, VVP seems 
 like the best option, but for a fantasy game simulating the effects from 
 the book is very expensive.  Teleports of a couple of hundred miles are 
 not uncommon, even for a less skilled sorcerer.  I'm tempted to resort to 
 house rules. >> 
 
 
      Remember that if they take extra time to concentrate, 0 dcv, even extra 
endurance , side effect stun drain, ( the dizzy/nauseous feeling) and things 
like that, take the cost down a whole lot.......... low power sorcerers, just 
had longer casting times, and worse side effects................ 
 
 
-----------------------------------------------that Doc Guy 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:33:10 +1000 
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At 02:07 AM 12/11/97 -0500, Tokyo Mark wrote: 
>> 	Um.  I really think it depends if the Avenger Big Boys show up or 
>> not.  They have legit Cosmic-level heroes, the X-Men don't.  There are a 
>> few on that team that could take on the entire X-Men team, let's say Thor 
>> and Iron Man (OK, he's elsewhere, now, but . . ) for starters. 
> 
>I think Thor was around for one of the battles, but could be wrong.  The 
>big edge the X-Men have is all those mentalists.  It's already been shown 
>Rogue can absorb Thor fully, so he's out of action.  Wolverine matches up 
>well with Capt. A.  I think it's alot more even than you might think.   
> 
>And being Cosmic is not all it's cracked up to be, Spidey beat up a Herald 
>of Galactus once (Firelord).:) 
> 
>TokyoMark 
> 
> 
 
Yup, and didn't THAT spark debate in the lettercol *g*. Actually I 
think it was well done, in fact the 'battle someone way  
tougher than you' Idea is one in which I often do 'equal rights' with 
the pc's- i.e. play it like a minatures game, all dice in the open,  
minimum gm plot devices. That way if they win, it's a real victory 
for them and one they know i didn't plan.  
 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:36:36 +1000 
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At 06:09 PM 12/11/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote: 
>	Weakening a device (brakes, steering, whatever) would probarly be  
>mechanics but timing the failure would be the tricky part.  The classic  
>scenes in the movies where the brakes fail just as the heroes are going down  
>a winding hill is a favorite of screen writers but unless somebody actually  
>pushes a button to blow an explosive device, when it happens is in the hands  
>of the gods. 
> 
 
No, that's becasue that's often the first time they TRY the breaks- serves 'em 
right for driving so cool *g* 
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:40:47 +1000 
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Subject: Re: San Angelo (Re: Greetings) 
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At 11:51 PM 12/10/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote: 
>> >  Secondly, folks, you help us squash those INCORRECT rumors right away by NOT 
>> >quoting them and pasting them into your messages. For example, the whole 
>> >thread about "it doesn't allow you to do faeries..." garbage is simply 
>> >misinterpretation. 
>> > 
>> Okie-dokey. I assumed this wuz the case, and in fact a good general theme for  
>> powers is useful- for instance, how do adjustment powers and supresses work? 
> 
>Magic Pixie dust? 
>Pheromone based horomones? 
>Mass-Hallucinations? 
>Tapping into the greater-subconscious? 
>Toon-Powers? 
>Reashaping reality to fit your model of it? 
>'scaring' the DNA into reforming itself? 
>Act's of god? 
> 
>	I can come up with millions of special effects behind adjustment 
>powers. 
 
 
yeah. . that's kinda the POINT. All those explanations are ALLOWED. . .  
BUT, IF you want something different (why would a golem be affected  
by pheremones or have a part in the greater subconcious- don't answer that) 
You have a nice, general concept at your disposal.. . .as I said in my post,  
the flux doesn't sound like it's going to be 'encountered' very often,  
just it's *results*, but still. .  
 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:47:21 +1000 
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Subject: Re: nuts playing wiers stuff (Re: San Angelo) 
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At 12:36 AM 12/11/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote: 
>	Sounds to me like your players wanted a more humorous game 
>than you were giving them. 
> 
>	But seriously, what's wrong with a faerie? The faerie realm has 
>long been a staple of both the fantasy and super genres. 
> 
>  
 
Well, they were more testing the limits than nething else,  .  
but they were a team of superheros. . . .and that fairy 
was so 'well' role-played as to be pointless. . . he had no desires, 
he just skipped around whistling a happy tune. . . the villan 
actually beat another pc to death useing the fairy as a club. . . . 
Faries are fine. I kinda play one myself(happyelf). But just  
that *particular* fairy i can do without, unless the game is 
toon, or at least ote. .  
 
 
 
 
 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: nuts playing wiers stuff (Re: San Angelo) 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:47:42 -0800 
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On Wednesday, December 10, 1997 4:29 PM, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
wrote: 
 
 
><snip> 
>That was the worst ofender, a completly indestructable fairy 
>who could not comprehend violence or conflict of any sort. 
>He just stood around thanking people for the 'heavy presents' 
>they kept giving him (i.e. lead!) 
 
 
"Why did you make holes in me?" 
"What?" I said cleverly. 
"Why did you make holes in me? I thank you for the gift of metal...." 
 
Larry Niven, "The Meddler" 
 
Filksinger 
 
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 03:56:17 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com> 
Subject: Faeries (Re: San Angelo) 
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<x-rich>>	But seriously, what's wrong with a faerie? The faerie realm has 
 
>long been a staple of both the fantasy and super genres. 
 
 
He says "Fairies", you say "Faeries".  That's the difference.  You're thinking creature of myth, he's thinking annoying little Lucky Charms leprachaun.  The latter a sure-fire way to destroy a serious game, the former would be a very interesting diversion for a team tired of taking on world-beating heavy-hitters. 
 
 
 
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
 
There he hath lain for ages, and will lie 
 
Until the latter fire shall heat the deep; 
 
Then once by man and angels to be seen, 
 
In roaring  he shall rise and on the surface die. 
 
	<bold>Alfred, Lord Tennyson</bold> - <italic>The Kraken 
 
</italic>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~	 
 
Scott Nolan 
 
nolan@erols.com 
 
</x-rich> 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:26:17 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7 
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Subject: Re: nuts playing wiers stuff (Re: San Angelo) 
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> > '''seriously''' though, after i started a hero game with some  
> > friends i had to ban faries and other goofy sorts. You know  
> > the drill: one wanted to play a vorpal bunny, another a  
> > supra-lucky dumb blonde, another wanted to convert his  
> > fairy over from nexus- 
> >  
> > That was the worst ofender, a completly indestructable fairy 
> > who could not comprehend violence or conflict of any sort. 
> > He just stood around thanking people for the 'heavy presents'   
> > they kept giving him (i.e. lead!)  
> > 
> 	Sounds to me like your players wanted a more humorous game 
> than you were giving them. 
>  
> 	But seriously, what's wrong with a faerie? The faerie realm has 
> long been a staple of both the fantasy and super genres. 
 
I think the humour comment is right on the money.  I started reading alot 
about fae when I went to university in Scotland and have to admit I think 
anyone who pictures fae like that has watched to much Disney or 
something:)  Most of the stories I've read on faeries are far more 
sinister. 
 
TokyoMark 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:26:32 EST 
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites?? 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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<< I have to throw my hat in here to that restricting FTL to out of atmosphere 
prevents several comic book powers from being done in a reasonable cost within 
hero. It needs some kind of in-atmosphere variation.>> 
 
  I agree totally. Perhaps this is something that could be addressed if we 
publish a 5th Edition? Or am I opening a new can of worms?  ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:26:39 EST 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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<< I personally wouldn't mind seeing more Ultimate Books, more Endless Enemies 
(I use them for everything). >> 
 
  The Ultimate Books are something we'd like to publish, but to be totally 
frank, it's up to Hero Games. You see, while our license allows us to publish 
any Hero System book, every project has to have Hero Games' stamp of approval. 
There have been a few projects that were not approved, but for the most part 
they want to see as many 4th Ed books as we can get out. 
 
<< Scenario books are good ecspecially when they include a good handful of new 
villians. >> 
 
  One of the things we're planning for our San Angelo line are books which 
contain a variety of material, all centered around a common theme or topic. 
For example, in our PART sourcebook (planned for next summer), we're including 
some new rules and skills, tips on GMing PART scenarios, tips on playing PART 
PCs, new PART equipment (weapons, armor, tools, etc.), new PART vehicles, some 
short adventures, NPCs, supervillains, etc. In short, some material for 
everybody, players and GMs alike. 
 
<< Something along the lines of Classic Champions would be nice where we could 
see some of the older villians from all those enemy books actually upgraded 
and in some sort of scenario thus giving them more depth, >> 
 
  THis brings up an interesting point that I have not yet covered. I guess now 
is as good a time as any, so here goes. The San Angelo "universe" is a brand 
new and totally separate universe, distinct from the old Champions Universe. 
We are not mixing the two. Rather, we are starting fresh. So you won't be 
seeing any references to people, places or things in the old CU (except 
possibly as the occasional homage, like, say, "Seeker Pizza" or some such.) 
 
  Now before anyone gets upset, this does not mean that we won't publish 
anything for or set in the CU, it's just that our focus is going to be on the 
new San Angelo: City of Heroes line. However, people are (as always) free to 
use what they want from our books. 
 
  And we may be publishing CU-related products from time to time as well. The 
idea of a "Then and Now" sort of book, updating some of the CU villains is a 
really cool idea, and I would easily push that up oin the production schedule 
if we had a manuscript. But of course manuscripts generally start as proposals 
(hint, hint). 
 
<< Well, just my two cents worth. >> 
 
  Two cents are worth their weight in gold. Thanks for sharing your thoughts 
with us. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:26:40 EST 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 65 
 
<< Are there any plans for more superhero miniatures in the foreseeable 
future? >> 
 
  That's a question for Hero Games, I'm afraid. I don't know of any plans for 
more Champions figs. Sorry. 
 
  I have a question for the masses, though. Would anyone like to see more 
"Cardboard Heroes" type of products? I don't think it would be too difficult 
to do, even as a one sheet insert in a book or as a one sheet tear-out. 
Thoughts? 
 
<< Ever since Soldiers & Sorcery (? is that the name? >> 
 
  Soldiers & Swords was the name, I believe. Those folks are now IMAC100. 
 
<< there's nobody left doing superhero miniatures. Is this something you guys 
would even be involved in? >> 
 
  Well, we could certainly approach Hero Games for a license to do them, but 
we really have no experience in miniatures. Believe me when I tell you that we 
would *love* to get involved in producing figures (for Champions, Usagi 
Yojimbo *and* Sengoku) but the start up costs for those are pretty high. We 
probably won't be in a position to do those until next year if we do them at 
all. 
 
<< If someone were to produce quality superhero miniatures, would Gold Rush 
Games be interested in marketing them?>> 
 
  Absolutely. And they wouldn't necessarily have to be licensed *Champions* 
figures to sell well... although there is a natural tie-in there, for us. ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:26:41 EST 
Subject: Nuts & Faeries 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 69 
 
<< Screw that! I'm not wasting my money if it lets some nut play faeries!>> 
 
  <LOL!> Oh, man, my sides hurt after I read that I was laughing so hard! It 
was a welcome break from the recent posts I've been reading in the superheroes 
newsgroup. Ugh! (No offense to anyone on this list who may be participating in 
those threads). 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 03:53:05 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 124 
 
At 12:00 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>VL> It could be worse.  The Street Fighter RPG equates Sambo with 
>VL> *professional* wrestling. (Sorry, WW, there are no piledrivers in 
>VL> Sambo). 
> 
>But there are in the video game, which is what the RPG is supposed to 
>simulate (to some degree or other). 
 
Yes, but the point is that when Zangief uses these maneuvers, he's not using 
Sambo, anymore than Blanka is using Capoeira when he tries to chew off your 
head. To the best of my knowledge, the video game doesn't make too many 
claims as to style, so it's not like they have any more reason to believe 
Zangief is a sambo practitioner than, say, Nikolai Volkoff. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 10:00:25 GMT 
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk 
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness) 
Subject: Things I expect in a Champions supplement 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
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I was just wondering whether there was a generic wishlist that people have  
when they buy a supplement. Obviously there should be some kind of plot that  
could be interwoven with an ongoing campiagn, or played as a one-off (dead  
easy, huh?), supervillain cast and possibly some good, well-developed NPC's  
that can be reused. 
 
I was thinking of other things. When I first started buying Champions I was  
sure they hoped to follow a policy of only publishing adventures that would  
add something to the game, e.g., Scourge of the Deep which would explore the  
variations in the rules when adventuring underwater etc, or would introduce  
an organisation in some depth. I kinda liked that, a bit of added value. Is  
there anything else that people want from a scenario pack?? 
 
In Deadlands they produce Dime Novel Adventures where they write up the  
scenario with the stock characters from the rule book so that by the time  
you get to the gaming info you already know the story, you've read it in  
novel form!! It's neat and it does help get a handle on the intricacies and  
the flow of the story, would people like to see a mini-comic using stock  
characters with each adventure?? I know _loads_ of would be comic book  
artists who would sell their soul to get the opportunity for such exposure...... 
 
 
 
Stephen  
 
From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann) 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 02:47:23 -0800 
Organization: Terminal BBS  (403)327-9731 
Subject: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 55 
 
 -=> Quoting qts to Mike Lehmann <=- 
 
 >The link is a 1/2 disadvantage, but is it really? 
 
 qt> CA NE VA PAS RECOMMENCER! 
 
Too late. <g> 
 
All we can do is ready the message filters and hope it doesn't last too  
long. :) 
 
GM: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net                    | Justice Krewe 
Web: http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html  | The Illuminators 
Short waiting list for new players                    | Enigma Watch 
Lurkers welcome (Write to me!)                        | KnightWatch 
 
... I think were all bozos on this bus. 
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR] 
 
 
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 10:59:39 GMT 
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk 
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness) 
Subject: Re: Things I expect in a Champions supplement 
Cc: champ-l@org.omg 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
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At 02:44 AM 11/12/97, Brian Wong wrote: 
>	That's a cool idea. HOWEVER; it was by doing this very thing that 
>Fuzion took a lot of heat. HOWEVER; Castle Falkenstien and Storyteller 
>have been praised for it. 
 
Now I have to admit that I have not looked at Fuzion so any comment I make  
re Fuzion are complete hearsay and conjecture, but I got the feeling that  
they didn't include the comic bits as a whole storyline, but instead of the  
usual example panels. Castle Falkenstein did the whole story bit and it  
entertained as well as informed. You could, if you really wanted to pay that  
much for the story have ignored the whole gaming aspect of the book. 
 
>	I think I would like it PROVIDED it DID NOT shorten the amount of 
>other, useful info, provided to me. 
 
This is important. It would have to be added value, not instead of. It would  
also have to be competantly done, if it wasn't quality controlled then even  
free it would be worse than not having it at all.... 
 
 
Stephen 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:46:46 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Link degression 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:24 PM 12/11/97 +0000, Mark Lemming wrote: 
>On the phrase "CON Stunned" 
> 
>How many people just want to reach across the table and slap the 
>person with a wet sea bass when they say that? 
 
It's a necessary evil.  I've gotten into the habit of saying it myself often 
just to avoid the (what should be nonexistent) confusion with getting KO'd. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:46:48 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:29 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Please cite something in the BBB that makes this connection.  Also, please 
>cite something in the BBB that says that Energy Blast *always* requires an 
>attack roll. 
 
I already HAVE, dammit, and the rule I'm citing is the actual rule that 
invokes the existence of this thing called "Energy Blast" within the HERO 
system in the first place. 
 
PAGE SIXTY-FIVE, PARAGRAPH FOUR, SENTENCE TWO (put your finger on it and 
count, I don't want you to miss it again): "To use an Energy Blast, the 
character states his target and makes an Attack Roll".   
 
Those are the instructions for the Power.  I can no more use an Energy Blast 
without following these instructions than I can watch TV without plugging it 
in and hitting the "Power" button.  I can no more use it for anything but 
attacking at range in this manner (this being the function of the power 
stated in sentence one) than I can use my television to cook dinner or fly 
to New York. 
 
Ball's in your court, Rat.  Give me a RULE -- not an example, not an 
implication taken from "they didn't say you CAN'T", etc. -- that says you 
CAN use Energy Blast in any fashion other than the one actually used in the 
description of the Power itself. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:10:19 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:17 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>So, we have a specific case of Energy Blast always reqiring an attack roll. 
>How about RKA, Flash, etc.,? 
> 
>What about the classic schtick of firing one's six-shooter in the air to 
>get everyone's attention?  Is that an attack?  If so, what is the target? 
>What gets hit by this attack? 
 
The target is the hex above you at the horizon.  You miss due to range 
modifiers. 
 
>There is no target.  Westerns ignore the fact that the bullet will 
>eventually come back down as fast as it was fired up.  There is no target, 
>there is no DCV, there is no attack roll. 
 
In your campaigns, you're free to say that.  BUT IT'S NOT A BOOK RULE. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:10:27 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:13 PM 12/11/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>	Hmmmm.  Yeah, I seem to recall that.  Oh, well.  It's still a 
>valid construction and it does have the advantages I listed -- ie, more 
 
By "it's", do you mean the mini-computer approach or the full-blown computer 
bought through focus?   
 
>direct control of the skills, not having to interface at a possible 
>different DEX and SPD, etc; as well as no controller roll needed (Computer 
>Ops in my campaign).  However, it is a waste of points, in almost all 
>cases.  Chalk it up as missing the place in the BBB where Computers are 
>said to be purchased as followers.  Quick, find it!  I never knew where it 
>was 'till someone here pointed it out. 
 
IMO, BTW, a computer without programs should require a controller roll. 
It's like going up to a DOS computer with no preinstalled applications and 
trying to word-process on it from scratch.  Get your hex calculator ready ...  
 
>> That would suggest the Hero Games editors have actual opinions about the 
>> game rules, which in the past hasn't seemed to be the case. :] 
> 
>	I've talked to Steve Long a little about his products, and he said 
>that the Hero editors were pretty involved in his projects, especially the 
>Ultimate series.  For instance, the Mental Combat maneuvers were 
>Peterson's, not Long's.  Long had his own that were bumped.  (I have a 
>copy of those, BTW, if anyone is interested.  Long said he wouldn't mind 
>them being distributed to the list.) 
 
I know, and Sean Fannon made a point that anything anybody didn't like about 
-The MUTANT File- was only in it because "they" twisted his arm. It's a 
little too pat of a response, and it's also a little hard to swallow the 
concept of "them" pushing material on the poor authors, since the best 
suspect for "them" (Steve Peterson) moves heaven and earth to keep from 
making absolutist statements on the game system. 
 
I'm not saying it's not true, just that it's hard to believe.  So's quantum 
physics, and I made the effort for that. :] 
 
== 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:10:39 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:05 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>VL> To the best of my knowledge, the video game doesn't make too many 
>VL> claims as to style, 
> 
>You should read CAPCOM's literature about the game, because they do call 
>Zangief's and Blanka's styles "Sambo" and "Capoeira", respectively. 
 
Even if these characters know these styles, it doesn't mean every move they 
perform was learned from them.  I may allow that Zangief may have Sambo 
training (though it doesn't show up anywhere on screen :]), but the 
pro-wrestling moves he uses are as much a part of that style as Blanka's 
electrical power comes from the jenga.   
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:18:48 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Things I expect in a Champions supplement 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:21 PM 12/11/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< I think I would like it PROVIDED it DID NOT shorten the amount of 
>other, useful info, provided to me.>> 
> 
>  A page or two of fiction to go along with the material in the sourcebook, 
>perhaps? 
 
Yeah ... really GOOD fiction ... fiction that tastes like it came in a 
bottle, but comes in a can ... oh, wait, that's beer. 
 
Seriously, IMO a page or two (or even double that) of fictional exposition 
is certainly okay, as long as it (a) is not overly pretentious or "kewl" and 
(b) actually has relevance to the sourcebook (for example, if a module, it 
should capture the basic theme/tone of the adventure to come). 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:06:43 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites?? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 77 
 
 
 
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, David W Toomey wrote: 
 
>  
> >Actually, I never liked that blanket ruling on FTL. The fact of the  
> >matter 
> >is that people do travel FTL (or at least lightspeed) within the 
> >atmosphere in comics, and a superhero game should have a mechanism for 
> >doing so. 
>  
> Oh, really? 
>  
> Lightspeed would put someone around the planet 7 TIMES in 1 second!! 
>  
> I don't remember seeing *anybody* in comics whop could do that.   
 
How about: 
 
The Flash (Barry Allen) 
The Flash (Presumably Wally West, who's supposed to be faster than Barry 
now) 
Blue Superman 
The Ray 
Airwave/Maser 
Pre-Crisis Superman 
The Construct 
Swamp Thing travels that fast, sort of, but it takes him a phase or two to 
build a new body. Actually, I'd do these last two with the Spirit Rules, 
but that's a whole other issue. 
 
And those are just off the top of my head. Don't you read any DC? 
 
 
Besides, 
>  *how* 
> do you choose a destination?  I would allow it for someone who wanted a 
> 'get out 
> of town' power, didn't mind a 'random' (GM decided....) destination, and 
> had powers that justified it (i.e., a teleporter with incredible, but 
> uncontrolled long range t-port) 
>  
>  
 
For Shock, a hero in one of my games who could convert himself into 
electricity, I always required an Electronics roll.  
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:53:10 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: To Steven Brust Readers 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 78 
 
>-- It may not be as bad as you think.  The teleports were never used with-in  
>combat as htus could be considered as non combat teleports only. 
 
Teleports were most certainly used in combat! Never point-to-point within a 
melee, but certainly for escape and for arrival in an ongoing melee. One 
specific example was the jhereg that swiped the Jhereg treasury and 'hid' 
out at Morrowlan's castle. Once he has stabbed Aleria with the Morganti 
dagger, he 'ported out RIGHT AWAY. No way was that a noncombat teleport, as 
Vlad had to rush up and stand next to him to 'come along'. Most people (even 
dragenarians) suffered a 'recovery' period in which they had to re-orient 
themselves, though, after a teleport (probably an extra phase), which is why 
few people 'dropped' into a melee. And teleporting took concentration, which 
made it hard to do when fighting for your life. 
 
>	Most of the other effects were standard attacks with strange special  
>effects.  Of course, there was the teleport block (small hardened force wall  
>transparent to energy and physical?), 
 
Change Environment. With TPs so cheap, I wouldn't require a FW to stop them. 
 
> the block to stop resurrection and  
>resurrection itself.  (Anybody want to restart the bringing back the dead  
>debate?) 
 
According to the books, the soul stayed in the body for three days. So it 
was simply a matter of revitalizing the corpse, and that seems to be a 
Transform, Not if Spine is Severed or Brain Destroyed (-1/2). Morganti 
weapons destroyed the soul of the target, making resurrection impossible. 
 
>	The link to the orb was a right of the nobility (2 or 5 point perk) and  
>was used as the local clock (absolute time sense).  To use sorcery required  
>that the link be there (-1/4 limit) and could be blocked by a special rock or  
>if the orb was in the land of the dead.  Oh, yea.  The use of teleport on  
>Easteners made them want to barf. 
 
DEX Drain Side Effects, probably. Note that mind link and mind scan (only 
for communication, not location) were dirt common. 
 
>	Witchcraft on the other hand was ritualistic, required components for  
>the most part and the use of a familiar to handle some of the more extreme  
>energy requirements.  And there was no spur of the moment casting.  Players  
>would need to have a pre-prepared list of their "spells" and inventing new  
>spells was an experience. 
 
Witches were psionic, and could pull off a few mental 'disciplines' as 
routine, like controlling the physical shock of taking a major wound - 
probably just more STUN than average. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:56:55 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Computer Questions 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 81 
 
At 07:59 PM 12/10/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
> I have constructed the base statistics for a computer.  It is 
>a normal computer, not an AI.   
> I would like to give the computer some Disadvantages to lower 
>it's cost.  However, I've seen conflicting information in regards to 
>how computers are handled in HERO. 
> On a chart labeled General Computer Information in Champions it  
>states: 
> Normal Computers have: 
> ... 
> 3)  No Psychological Disadvantages 
> 
> Under the section 'Normal Computers,' however, it states: 
> ...  They cannot have Disadvantages. 
> 
> In the only other Champions book I have acquired, 'Underworld Enemies,' 
>the write up includes the following for a Normal Computer known as  
>'The Gallows' (pg. 44): 
> Disadvantages 
>   20 | Physical Limitation: Must obey creator's orders 
>   20 | Physical Limitation: Computer 
>   20 | Distinctive Features: Computer (Not Conc, Major Reaction) 
>   10 | DNPC: Creator (As Powerful), 14- 
> 
> You assistance would be greatly appreciated.  Reference to other 
>computers in HERO and how they are normally dealt with would be greatly 
>appreciated. 
 
   While overly harsh for my taste, I tend to agree with Vox' assessment of 
these Disadvantages.  The first three are inherent, and the fourth is invalid. 
   On the other hand, I imagine that a computer could have certain Physical 
Limitations that cause it to shut off under certain circumstances, or to 
represent things that normal computers can do that this one can't; a Hunter 
and/or a Reputation might also be allowed in some cases.  I rather expect 
that, back in '89, the only Disadvantage that the Hero creators could 
imagine a computer having was a Psychological Limitation, and an entity 
with no EGO cannot have a Psych Limit. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:58:31 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Faeries (Re: San Angelo) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
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<x-rich>At 03:56 AM 12/11/97 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote: 
 
>>>>  
 
<excerpt>> But seriously, what's wrong with a faerie? The faerie realm 
has 
 
>long been a staple of both the fantasy and super genres. 
 
 
</excerpt>He says "Fairies", you say "Faeries".  That's the difference.  
You're thinking creature of myth, he's thinking annoying little Lucky 
Charms leprachaun.  The latter a sure-fire way to destroy a serious game, 
the former would be a very interesting diversion for  a team tired of 
taking on world-beating heavy-hitters. 
 
<<<<<<<< 
 
   Using fairies is also a sure-fire way to add some Politically 
Incorrect humor to a game set in San Francisco. 
 
   [He says, being sure to have at least 7/8 cover.] 
 
>>>> 
 
 
 
--- 
 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
 
</x-rich> 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:06:11 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 05:07 PM 12/11/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
>At 10:47 PM 12/10/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote: 
>> Yeah, I noticed that in 'Champions Universe' they obsoleted a lot 
>>of the old modules by stating that "The Champions had done it already". 
>> 
>> This things work best when suppliments are as non-campaign 
>>intrusive as possible. Otherwise you have to do major rewrites to use 
>>them. Once you have to do that you're better off just using home-made 
>>stuff. 
> 
>I think a good balace of 'campaign' against 'Intrusive' is a plus. . . 
>the basic dialogue would be 'instead of tracking the champions timeline,  
>let's give a general timeline for everythig ELSE, since the  
>champions-equivalents are the bits the pc's and gm will be making up 
>dealing with  
 
   Better yet, I was hoping that the timeline would feature stuff that had 
been dealt with in the long-term back-stories of the modules for 4th ed.  I 
didn't mind them putting 3rd ed publications into the realm of "been there, 
done that," and enough has been written to put the Day of the Destroyer 
into a fixed point in the past, but I would have preferred a timeline that 
led into the published adventures rather than paved over them. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:08:03 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 04:26 AM 12/11/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
>  I have a question for the masses, though. Would anyone like to see more 
>"Cardboard Heroes" type of products? I don't think it would be too difficult 
>to do, even as a one sheet insert in a book or as a one sheet tear-out. 
>Thoughts? 
 
   Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!  This was the main feature that encouraged me 
to buy Alien Enemies!  (It sure wasn't the book's organization....) 
--- 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:12:08 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites?? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 04:26 AM 12/11/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< I have to throw my hat in here to that restricting FTL to out of 
atmosphere 
>prevents several comic book powers from being done in a reasonable cost 
within 
>hero. It needs some kind of in-atmosphere variation.>> 
> 
>  I agree totally. Perhaps this is something that could be addressed if we 
>publish a 5th Edition? Or am I opening a new can of worms?  ;) 
 
   If your "new can of worms" is a 5th Edition, you're probably setting 
yourself up for a sainthood. 
   (Not to mention a *very* full mailbox.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:22:11 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Going off on a little tangent 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 12:18 AM 12/11/97 -0500, Tokyo Mark wrote: 
>>  
>> Nice phrasing... makes one wonder exactly what Vox did to Steve to get him 
>> to make said ruling.:) ("Reverse that ruling or I'll make you throw out 
>> the Hero System for a fixed power list system and rework the Champions U 
>> to emulate a style of comics which not only sucks but is dying in the 
>> marketplace!" Oh wait... they actually _did_ that...) 
> 
>Heh.:)  Well, if you mean books not based on the Golden Age, I have to 
>disagree.  As far as I know they are doing pretty well in the market 
>place.  If you mean the 'blood drenched spiked hair guys and bad girls 
>with big guns' that the press release talked about, yep, it's hurting. 
>But I didn't see alot of that in C:TNM.  My main complaInt with the game 
>still is that they didn't so much update it as do a totally new alternate 
>universe, with new totally different origins for characters.  I liked Dr. 
>Destroyer as Al Zerstoiten (sp) the ex-nazi world destroyer, not as a 
>millenium old force:).  I did a whole campaign (Something like 4 years 
>worth) based on what if Dr. D decided to take over the world instead of 
>destroying it, withn Dr. D as a more Dr. Doom like figure.  It worked 
>pretty well. 
 
   When I learned that Hero was going to not only start a new universe but 
a new game system as well, I was inspired to assemble notes for an 
adventure that would allow GMs to go directly from one to the other with a 
"logical" explanation.  Entitled "Doomsday," it detailed what happens when 
Doctor Destroyer (the familiar old Albert Zerstoiten, and yes you spelled 
it right) got ahold of the Cosmic Locus and prepares to use it to re-create 
the universe in his own image.  Of course, he fails to make a total change, 
but he does manage to set himself up as a demigod and cause a catastrophe 
that wipes out the majority of superheroes (this element I've added since 
getting to peek inside C:NM).  This whole idea was basically an homage to 
the Crisis/Zero Hour series, along with a little Secret Wars for good measure. 
   Though it's fairly extensive, I *may* get this adventure posted to my 
website late next year or early in '99. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:28:46 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 08:29 PM 12/10/97 -0800, Michael Sprague wrote: 
>As far as other's comments go about making you use them linked powers  
>proportionately, that's potentially a very good idea for a house rule ...  
>so long as one is not forced to use the linked power when one uses the  
>non-limited power it is linked to. 
 
   Now, hold on there.  That's exactly what the Linked Limitation *does.* 
It says so right there in the description. 
 
>> Basically, you get a -1/2 on a power for absolutely no disadvantage, save 
>> having to spend 1 END on another power for a 0 level.  This means there  
>is 
>> no reason not to take every power linked. 
> 
>Well, yes and no.  You shouldn't make such broad based statements when  
>there are many exceptions.  For example, there could easily be limitations  
>on the power 'linked-to'  (or even SFX reasons) that keep it from working.  
> Thus, the linked power can't be used either, thus, it's a limitation.  As  
>a GM, I better not see those same Limitations on the Power with the Linked  
>Limitation ... but of course, I am sure there are exceptions to that too. 
 
   If a larger power "Does Not Work Under Certain Circumstances," then any 
Power that's Linked to it should have it as well.  I can think of no reason 
not to. 
 
>But yes, there is a huge potential for abuse here, and Linked probably  
>deserves a Magnifying glass next to it.  GM's should carefully examine any  
>use of Linked to make sure it's truly a Limitation.  It's very hard to  
>generalize though.  You need to look at it case by case. 
 
   The description of Linked in the HSR is horribly under-written.  I don't 
think there's much debate over that, especially with as much debate that 
it's generated over the years on how it works. 
   But no interpretation of it that I've ever seen before you has ever 
allowed non-proportional use, nor the use of the larger Power without the 
use of the Linked Power.  Those are *extremely* important balancers for 
this Limitation. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:29:08 +0000 
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
>   Since it seems that the majority of folks (onthis list, anyway) would like 
> to see more cardboard minis, let me ask you this: Would you be willing to pay 
> an extra $2 for a book that had them included? 
 
If they were included in a product I already wanted to buy, it would  
make no difference. I probably wouldn't buy a product I couldn't  
otherwise use just to get the minis (unless I got it in the bargain  
bin). 
 
Guy 
---------------------------------- 
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com) 
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/ 
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf 
and the PANGAEA Project! 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:32:03 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 90 
 
At 09:46 AM 12/10/97 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>At 07:46 PM 12/10/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>VL> You can't use EB without the attack roll, 
>> 
>>Sure you can.  Fire it in the air as part of a presence attack.  It falls 
>>under "demonstration of a power". 
> 
>Sounds good, except that it doesn't fit the description of the power.  p. 
>65: "A character with this Standard Power can attack at range.  To use an 
>Energy Blast, the character states his target and makes an Attack Roll." 
>Seems pretty straightforward -- a use of energy blast IS an attack, and 
>requires an Attack Roll.   
 
   In the case of using it by firing it into the sky, the character makes 
an Attack Roll against the Sky (which would have a DCV well into the 
three-digit negative numbers, albeit with some pretty good Range Mods). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:34:53 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 09:36 PM 12/10/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes: 
> 
>VL> Sounds good, except that it doesn't fit the description of the power. 
>VL> p.  65: "A character with this Standard Power can attack at range. 
>VL> To use an Energy Blast, the character states his target and makes an 
>VL> Attack Roll."  Seems pretty straightforward -- a use of energy blast IS 
>VL> an attack, and requires an Attack Roll. 
> 
>Go read the section on Presence Attacks, specifically the example of the 
>guy blasting the tree, making a presence attack, then blasting the troll. 
> 
>Wonky or not, either the example in the BBB is wrong, or you are wrong. 
> 
>I am with the BBB on this one until someone from Hero Games comes out and 
>states that the example is broken. 
 
   I may be missing something here.  Where in the Arkelos example does it 
say that the Energy Blast that shatters the tree is done as a 0-Phase 
action? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:44:02 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
>   I have a question for the masses, though. Would anyone like to see more 
> "Cardboard Heroes" type of products? I don't think it would be too difficult 
> to do, even as a one sheet insert in a book or as a one sheet tear-out. 
> Thoughts? 
 
I have just about every Card Board Heroes set SJ Games ever printed (and a 
few duplicates).  I also picked up a set of Shadowrun cardboard heros and 
even V&V cardboard characters. 
 
Any new sets would be greatly appreciated.  Supers, normal, fantasy, SF 
etc. 
  
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:45:57 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites?? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << I have to throw my hat in here to that restricting FTL to out of atmosphere 
> prevents several comic book powers from being done in a reasonable cost within 
> hero. It needs some kind of in-atmosphere variation.>> 
>  
>   I agree totally. Perhaps this is something that could be addressed if we 
> publish a 5th Edition? Or am I opening a new can of worms?  ;) 
>  
 
Ahem, Mark, do you realize what you've just *said*?  If you are serious, 
be prepared for a ton of e-mail! 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:55:13 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Sabotage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 01:49 PM 12/11/97 +1000, jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au wrote: 
>how about these as a start for how 'into' the vehicle the sabotuer must be- 
> 
>simple job- -3 (just walk by, casually pull out a wire or chuck on a  
>limpet mine) 
> 
>major work- 0 (needs a work station, has to pop the hood, ect) 
> 
>infiltration- +3? (climing inside a big vehicle, or maybe just shrinking 
down. .  
> 
>dismantling - +4? (pull the thing apart and 'saw the axles', ext. . .) 
 
   These are decent modifiers for a start.  I'm not sure how to quantify 
them, but not everything in Hero is concretely quantified.  ("Surprise! 
It's left to the GM's discretion!") 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:59:09 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Sabotage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 06:09 PM 12/11/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote: 
>>    What I'm leaning toward is this (to give a simplified version):  The 
>> saboteur decides what he wants to do to the vehicle, and the GM assigns an 
>> appropriate Skill, just like a normal application.  And, of course, there's 
>> a difficulty penalty for what the saboteur is trying to do: 
>>  
>>    Disabling a Device: -1 per ten Active Points being shut off. 
>>    Planting a Device (such as a bomb or remote control): -1 per ten Active 
>> Points being added. 
>>    Weakening a Device (such as Burnout Rolls, Extra Time Limitation, etc.): 
>> -1 per -1/4 Limitation being imposed on a device. 
> 
> I wonder if you are trying to go too deep.  Planting a bomb is  
>demolitions and concealment.  Having just written that, change of mind.   
>Planting the device would apply a negative to the concealment roll.  Extra  
>time would balance if possible. 
> 
> Weakening a device (brakes, steering, whatever) would probarly be  
>mechanics but timing the failure would be the tricky part.  The classic  
>scenes in the movies where the brakes fail just as the heroes are going down  
>a winding hill is a favorite of screen writers but unless somebody actually  
>pushes a button to blow an explosive device, when it happens is in the hands  
>of the gods. 
> 
> But perhaps you are missing the greatest act of sabotage.  Taking  
>control of the vehicle.  Now, that is where the villian has the most fun.   
>Mechanics, electronics, system ops and a fair bit of time.  The negatives  
>would depend on the relative level of technology of the vehicle, I suppose.   
>Try considering a normal vehicle as base (what, 20 to 30 points?) and apply  
>-1 per 10 points above that base.  Countering that would probarly be several  
>people working on it (complemetry rolls) and maybe a decent amount of time.   
>Other modifiers could be added both positive and negative for research time  
>and effort spent. 
 
   I'm apparently not going too deep, since most of what you describe is 
basically what I'm trying to do.  (It just wasn't super clear because I was 
trying to be brief and save bandwidth, not to mention keep down the amount 
of time I spent writing here so I could be busy working on TUSV itself.) 
   And I do have rules on taking control of a vehicle; all the Sabotage 
rules would add would be a way to plant a remote control receiver so that 
the saboteur can use his device. 
--- 
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Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites?? 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 11:06:56 -0500 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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On 12/11/97 9:06 AM, Bill Svitavsky (bsvitavs@bu.edu) Said: 
 
>The Flash (Barry Allen) 
>The Flash (Presumably Wally West, who's supposed to be faster than Barry 
>now) 
>Blue Superman 
>The Ray 
>Airwave/Maser 
>Pre-Crisis Superman 
 
>And those are just off the top of my head. Don't you read any DC? 
 
Or From Marvel: 
 
Captain Marvel (the Female One) 
 
 
                                         |  David A. Fair 
        Think Different                  |  SDS International 
                                         |  dfair@sdslink.com 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 11 Dec 1997 11:45:53 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes: 
 
VL> Think in terms of the most basic kinds of attacks: physical and energy. 
VL> Which is better, a 5d6 EB vs. PD linked to a 5d6 EB vs. ED, or a 10d6 
VL> EB vs.  one or the other form of defense? 
 
A poor example, I think.  Try this one: which is more useful, a 12D6 EB 
vs. ED, or a 6D6 EB vs. ED and a 3D6 Flash?  Everyone has PD and ED, not 
everyone has Flash Defense.  "Linked" becomes more useful than raw damage 
as you start adding powers with less common defenses. 
 
The Linked limitation does not take this into account. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Date: 11 Dec 1997 11:50:07 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
BG>    I may be missing something here.  Where in the Arkelos example does 
BG> it say that the Energy Blast that shatters the tree is done as a 
BG> 0-Phase action? 
 
Activation of a power is a 0-phase action. 
 
Presence attacks are no time actions. 
 
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From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net> 
Subject: El Hazard 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:51:38 -0600 
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I've been thinking of working on a Campaign based on the Anime El Hazard, 
but I need to come up with a list of "powers" that characters could gain. I 
was thinking speed (as opposed to strength) with a time limit of some sort, 
where the character would have increased movement and agility for a short 
period of time. Precognition also came to mind. Anyone else have some other 
ideas? 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 11 Dec 1997 11:59:15 -0500 
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>>>>> "TM" == Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> writes: 
 
TM> They still have my own personal pet peeve in UMA, the mega ninjato (ninja 
TM> sword).  Why they have this sword doing the damage of a katana with a +1 
TM> stun multiplier added on is beyond me.  I assumed it was an error in NH. 
 
Nope.  When you compare katana with ninja-to you will frequently find the 
ninja-to to be of similar construction but much heavier.  Aside from being 
a weapon it was used in place of a variety of other tools, thus the 
straight, heavier blade and large guard (square to keep it from rolling). 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
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>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes: 
 
VL> It could be worse.  The Street Fighter RPG equates Sambo with 
VL> *professional* wrestling. (Sorry, WW, there are no piledrivers in 
VL> Sambo). 
 
But there are in the video game, which is what the RPG is supposed to 
simulate (to some degree or other). 
 
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From: ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:18:56 +0000 
Subject: Extra Time on a Triggered Power 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
One of the characters in my campaign is using an INT Drain which  
takes 5 minutes to prepare, but it is also built with a Trigger, so  
that it can be delivered in combat; essentially, she has to inject  
a potion into someone for the drug to take effect. 
 
Is anybody else as bugged by this as I am? I don't think that the  
Extra Time should be worth the full limitation in these  
circumstances.  How do you handle injectible drugs in your campaigns? 
 
Guy 
---------------------------------- 
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com) 
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/ 
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf 
and the PANGAEA Project! 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Sabotage 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 11 Dec 1997 12:23:31 -0500 
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
BG>    And I do have rules on taking control of a vehicle; all the Sabotage 
BG> rules would add would be a way to plant a remote control receiver so 
BG> that the saboteur can use his device. 
 
KISS: keep it simple. 
 
For explosives, Demolitions is the skill required to destroy the sabotaged 
thing.  A failed roll means that the thing is only damaged.  A simple 
Concealment roll tells whether or not the device is hidden from casual 
inspection. 
 
For "critical systems failure", mechanics or electronics (or other 
appropriate skill) to have the system fail at a random time.  If the 
sabateur wants the system to fail at a particular point -- after a given 
amount of time or at a given event -- assess a -5 penalty to the roll.  If 
the roll fails with the -5 but would have succeeded without the penalty, 
the system may fail at a random time.  A second mechanics or electronics 
skill roll tells whether or not the sabotage is concealed from casual 
inspection. 
 
The "remote control trick" is a variation of "critical systems failure", 
though the SFX may require a Concealment skill roll rather than mechanics 
or electronics for concealment. 
 
Random failures should be modified by a character's Luck or Unluck. 
 
If the roll to conceal the sabotage succeeds, only characters that are 
actively searching for signs of sabotage, or those with special senses that 
can somehow detect the sabotage, will have a chance of noticing.  If it 
fails, a normal Perception roll will reveal the tampering. 
 
Defending against sabotage could be skill levels that assess a penalty to 
the saboteur's rolls, or redundant systems (however you plan to implement 
that). 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:31:46 EST 
Subject: Re: San Angelino (Re: Greetings) 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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<< What bothered me about the San Angelino promo >> 
 
  That's San Angelo. A San Angelino is someone who lives there. ;) 
 
<< ...was how it tried to explain Super's in so rational and scientific a 
manner as to stifle the genre. IMHO. >> 
 
  Actually, it doesn't stifle the genre at all. All it does is give an 
"explanation" as to why all those weird things happen. And even so, it still 
doesn't explain "how." It leaves all origins available, just as they have 
always been. But it gives us the ability to attach some meaning to it all, so 
to speak. A lot of folks have said "Well, why do all these powers happen to 
people, anyway? Why doesn't a lethal dose of gamma radiation kill them like it 
would in the real world?" With the flux we've answered that question (sort 
of). Nothing is invalidated whatsoever. And, as always, GMs are free to 
totally ignore the flux in their campaign. 
 
<< Otherwise I loved what I saw. I'll probably buy it and just write out that 
portion of it in my own usage.>> 
 
  We're glad you liked it. And you are very right in simply ignoring that 
section if you want. We've designed the whole book that way; take what you 
like and sicard the rest. It's a very detailed book and yet has been designed 
to be very easy to use as is, incorporate it into an existing campaign, or 
simply pull a few neat parts out for use in an existing campaign. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:31:57 EST 
Subject: PCs and Timelines 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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<< this was always something that annoyed me about previous 4E products, where 
they advanced the timeline on their own schedule and assumed that the 
Champions (or whatever other hero group the author liked best) have already 
run through all their modules. >> 
 
  Ideally, if your PCs are playing in one of our adventures, there's a reason 
for it. Either the other heroes are unavailable (sick, out of the 
city/country, at work, have a hangover, whatever) or they are unable to handle 
it. Hey, that's why your PCs are the top dogs in San Angelo! ;) 
 
<< The more books get published, the 
further "behind" your campaign becomes, diverging further and further from 
the universe until you're rewriting every supplement you buy practically 
from scratch.   
 
<< A certain level of touch-up work is going to be necessary for any product, 
but it's definitely a show of good faith to try to leave room in your campaign 
material for the characters that the book is, in theory, being purchased FOR. 
Glad to see you're on the right track!>> 
 
  Thank you. You know, just so that people on this list understand, we are 
long time Champions players, too. We have all experienced the same problems, 
hurdles and frustrations that you have. One of the things we want to do is to 
present the Champions fandom with products that they *want*. That doesn't mean 
that we'll always please everybody at the same time, but we are listening. 
 
  I hope that this "your heroes are #1" philosophy goes some distance toward 
assuring you all of that. ;)  After all, my philosophy is "I fI wouldn't buy 
it, I won't publish it." Of course, I would buy some really odd stuff... :D 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:31:58 EST 
Subject: Re: San Angelo (Re: Greetings) 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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<< yeah. . that's kinda the POINT. All those explanations are ALLOWED. . .  
BUT, IF you want something different... You have a nice, general concept at 
your disposal.. . .>> 
 
  You've hit the nail on the head. Thanks! 
 
<< the flux doesn't sound like it's going to be 'encountered' very often, just 
it's *results*, but still. . >> 
 
  The way we've written the flux into the campaign world, it's a totally 
undetectable energy; merely a hypothesis of a small group of scholars and 
scientists (but we all know their theory is correct <G>). 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:22:12 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: PCs and Timelines 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << this was always something that annoyed me about previous 4E products, where 
> they advanced the timeline on their own schedule and assumed that the 
> Champions (or whatever other hero group the author liked best) have already 
> run through all their modules. >> 
>  
>   Ideally, if your PCs are playing in one of our adventures, there's a reason 
> for it. Either the other heroes are unavailable (sick, out of the 
> city/country, at work, have a hangover, whatever) or they are unable to handle 
> it. Hey, that's why your PCs are the top dogs in San Angelo! ;) 
 
Uh... I'm not trying to be rude (or stupid), but who *cares* what universe 
the module was set it?  Why slavishly follow any sort of timeline put 
down by Hero or GRG?  I mean, I know that in any game I run, I won't have 
Viper or Dr. Destroyer or the Champions, so I'm going to have to edit or 
change those elements present in a scenario or module I do get.  The same 
goes for a GRG book.  If I like the scenario (or the character) but don't 
use certain elements present, then I need to edit that part out. 
 
Nobig deal, right? 
 
>  
> << The more books get published, the 
> further "behind" your campaign becomes, diverging further and further from 
> the universe until you're rewriting every supplement you buy practically 
> from scratch.   
 
But this is my cqampaign, I'm not required to follow any one universe. 
And if one runs even a Hero-based universe, it seems silly to try and 
follow Hero's product blow-for-blow. 
  
>   Thank you. You know, just so that people on this list understand, we are 
> long time Champions players, too. We have all experienced the same problems, 
> hurdles and frustrations that you have. One of the things we want to do is to 
> present the Champions fandom with products that they *want*. That doesn't mean 
> that we'll always please everybody at the same time, but we are listening. 
>  
>   I hope that this "your heroes are #1" philosophy goes some distance toward 
> assuring you all of that. ;)  After all, my philosophy is "I fI wouldn't buy 
> it, I won't publish it." Of course, I would buy some really odd stuff... :D 
 
Well, so do I, but I usually look for cross genre compatability and 
useful source material, not how well something will fit in any 
preconceived timeline. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:49:46 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Greetings (Cardboard Heroes) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 108 
 
>  I have a question for the masses, though. Would anyone like to see more 
>"Cardboard Heroes" type of products? I don't think it would be too difficult 
>to do, even as a one sheet insert in a book or as a one sheet tear-out. 
>Thoughts? 
 
Actually, Yes, I would love some more up to date and different cardboard  
heroes.  They are cheap, easy to use, and it is nice to get 20+ cardboard vs  
one per minature.  We use them simply because we did just get into the  
minature part of Champions and with players switching characters about every  
four to eight games it is cheaper as I said just to whip out a new cardboard  
then go buy a new minature.  More please :)  Take it easy and talk at you later. 
 
Sparx 
 
===================================================== 
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children. 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:56:10 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: El Hazard 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 110 
 
>I've been thinking of working on a Campaign based on the Anime El Hazard, 
>but I need to come up with a list of "powers" that characters could gain. I 
>was thinking speed (as opposed to strength) with a time limit of some sort, 
>where the character would have increased movement and agility for a short 
>period of time. Precognition also came to mind. Anyone else have some other 
>ideas? 
 
Well, looking at the list of powers from the 4 part series (as opposed to 
the TV series, which I haven't seen): 
 
Interfacing/Operating 'Ancient' Technology (probably a limited form of 
telepathy, plus some sort of perk) 
Immunity to the 'Illusions' of the Phantom Tribe (N-Ray Senses, Only vs 
Phantom Tribe illusions) 
Immense Strength and Durability 
'Talk to Bugrom' ability (Persistant, communication only telepathy? it's not 
just language, as they have no trouble understanding either). 
 
A quick look shows that these particular powers are in now way balanced. 
Fujisawa, at 'full strength', made the Hulk look like a pansy. All Jinei 
ever managed was 'talk to Bugrom', which facilitated his natural 
tactical/strategic skills. 
 
A good idea (IMHO) running an El Hazard campaign - assuming you go the 
'earth people transported to El Hazard and they get powers' is to NOT let 
the players pick their own powers. Balance raw power with usefulness - for 
example, Makoto's use of ancient tech was pretty much useless in a fight, 
but it did allow him to stop Ifurita with it. Plan ahead and hand out powers 
that _will_ be useful, even if not immediately apparant in the campaign. 
 
Most of the players should be 'one trick wonders' - only Fujisawa seemed to 
be multi-talented, and even then it was narrow focus (tough, strong, 
superleap, some extra running speed). And he paid for it by having to give 
up his vices. 
 
Superspeed with an END reserve seems good. Precognition would be as well, as 
long as it's No Concious Control. Basic Invulnerability (with no other 
advantages) would be good. Telekinesis or Levitation (flight). Sonic Energy 
blast (super-shout). How about Dowsing? Use a stick to find almost ANYTHING 
you are looking for, given enough time. 
 
Of course, you could go higher powered. Like animating rocks to become stone 
golems to help you out (Summon). Just shooting energy blasts, though, 
doesn't 'feel' El Hazard. Only the high priestesses and Ifurita were pulling 
that off. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:00:45 -0500 
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net> 
Subject: Re: Going off on a little tangent 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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>   When I learned that Hero was going to not only start a new universe but 
>a new game system as well, I was inspired to assemble notes for an 
>adventure that would allow GMs to go directly from one to the other with a 
>"logical" explanation.  Entitled "Doomsday," it detailed what happens when 
>Doctor Destroyer (the familiar old Albert Zerstoiten, and yes you spelled 
>it right) got ahold of the Cosmic Locus and prepares to use it to re-create 
>the universe in his own image.  Of course, he fails to make a total change, 
>but he does manage to set himself up as a demigod and cause a catastrophe 
>that wipes out the majority of superheroes (this element I've added since 
>getting to peek inside C:NM).  This whole idea was basically an homage to 
>the Crisis/Zero Hour series, along with a little Secret Wars for good 
measure. 
>   Though it's fairly extensive, I *may* get this adventure posted to my 
>website late next year or early in '99. 
> 
 
I LIKE this idea.  It's about as good a segue as you'll find with all the 
changes in the book.  It's also a good homage to the wold DC world changing 
events.  The PC's would have to fail to stop him, but if they partially 
succedded that could explain why the change was not all he wanted. 
 
TokyoMark 
 
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:06:33 -0500 
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
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A 
>TM> They still have my own personal pet peeve in UMA, the mega ninjato (ninja 
>TM> sword).  Why they have this sword doing the damage of a katana with a +1 
>TM> stun multiplier added on is beyond me.  I assumed it was an error in NH. 
> 
>Nope.  When you compare katana with ninja-to you will frequently find the 
>ninja-to to be of similar construction but much heavier.  Aside from being 
>a weapon it was used in place of a variety of other tools, thus the 
>straight, heavier blade and large guard (square to keep it from rolling). 
 
Sorry, I disagree.  Yes, it was similar in construction.  Yes, it was 
heavier.  However, the blade was not nearly as sharp.  I can see the +1 
stun mult (maybe), but not giving it the same cutting power as a katana as 
well.  It simply was not a superior weapon.  More varied in uses, but not a 
superior weapon. 
 
 
 
From: "James Jandebeur" <waveking@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: Computer Questions 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:17:18 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
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-----Original Message----- 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: Thursday, December 11, 1997 8:12 AM 
Subject: Re: Computer Questions 
>>   20 | Physical Limitation: Must obey creator's orders 
>>   20 | Physical Limitation: Computer 
>>   20 | Distinctive Features: Computer (Not Conc, Major Reaction) 
>>   10 | DNPC: Creator (As Powerful), 14- 
>   While overly harsh for my taste, I tend to agree with Vox' assessment of 
>these Disadvantages.  The first three are inherent, and the fourth is 
invalid. 
 
 
I would think that the person who built the computer might be playing with 
house rules where the computer is built more like any other character.  Such 
disadvantages on a system would be common in my game, for example, due to 
the house rules I use, as they don't make distinctions based on "it's a 
computer" and so on.  However, it would be nice if the characters and 
equipment in the books were built according to the official rules.  If the 
house rules were in it as well, maybe a mention could be made of how to 
build the characters with those rules as well as the standard. 
 
JAJ, Rules Philosopher 
 
 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:24:32 +0000 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
Subject: Re: Link degression 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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On the phrase "CON Stunned" 
 
How many people just want to reach across the table and slap the 
person with a wet sea bass when they say that? 
 
-Mark Lemming 
 
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:24:51 -0500 
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net> 
Subject: Re: To Steven Brust Readers 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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>Teleports were most certainly used in combat! Never point-to-point within a 
>melee, but certainly for escape and for arrival in an ongoing melee. One 
>specific example was the jhereg that swiped the Jhereg treasury and 'hid' 
>out at Morrowlan's castle. Once he has stabbed Aleria with the Morganti 
>dagger, he 'ported out RIGHT AWAY. No way was that a noncombat teleport, as 
>Vlad had to rush up and stand next to him to 'come along'. Most people (even 
>dragenarians) suffered a 'recovery' period in which they had to re-orient 
>themselves, though, after a teleport (probably an extra phase), which is why 
>few people 'dropped' into a melee. And teleporting took concentration, which 
>made it hard to do when fighting for your life. 
 
Actually, Mellar (The Jhereg in question), didn't do the teleport at all. 
He stabbed Aliera, realized something was wrong.  When Daymar tried to mind 
probe him, he ordered the body guard who was now Vlad to teleport them out. 
 Vlad acted like he froze up, then Mellar ordered the other bodyguard to 
teleport them out.   No one was attacking during this, so they were not 
fighting.  I agree about the concentration.  Vlad during the later fight 
comments Mellar would need 3-4 seconds to concentrate and tport out and he 
was not going to give him the time.  So, I still think tport is not 
something you want to try in the middle of combat.  but if you don't get 
killed during the time you are trying it, it can be done.  For some reason, 
no one wears more than light leather armor, so the odds are not with you.:) 
 
I don't find anything that indicates Dragaerans were ill or disoriented by 
teleporting.   
 
>DEX Drain Side Effects, probably. Note that mind link and mind scan (only 
>for communication, not location) were dirt common. 
 
Yep, mind link was very common, with mind scan.  There were also other 
detect spells to find people over wide distances and to trace teleports. 
 
> 
>Witches were psionic, and could pull off a few mental 'disciplines' as 
>routine, like controlling the physical shock of taking a major wound - 
>probably just more STUN than average. 
 
Just about everyone was at least minorly psionic.  Aliera comments Easterns 
were given psionic abilities almost the equal of Dragaerans.  It might be 
equal, Aliera might be biased;)  
 
 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 11 Dec 1997 14:29:03 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes: 
 
VL> That's not said in the Arkelos example, Rat, that's just restating your 
VL> opinion as fact. 
 
No, it is a restating of the BBB's time chart as fact. 
 
[...] 
 
VL> * Activation of a power that requires an attack roll unavoidably 
VL>   attaches a 1/2 Phase action to the 0-Phase action. 
 
Please cite something in the BBB that makes this connection.  Also, please 
cite something in the BBB that says that Energy Blast *always* requires an 
attack roll. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "T" == TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net> writes: 
 
T> Sorry, I disagree.  Yes, it was similar in construction.  Yes, it was 
T> heavier.  However, the blade was not nearly as sharp. 
 
That is interesting, considering that many ninja-to were converted from 
katana. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes: 
 
>> The Linked limitation does not take this into account. 
 
VL> ... perhaps because it may have been designed under the philosophy "all 
VL> other things being equal ...". 
 
Yes, depth (raw power) vs. breadth (flexability) being equal, the costs 
should be the same. 
 
Linked as you interpret it makes breadth cost less than depth. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should 
                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:42:50 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
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On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, TokyoMark wrote: 
 
> >TM> They still have my own personal pet peeve in UMA, the mega ninjato (ninja 
> >TM> sword).  Why they have this sword doing the damage of a katana with a +1 
> >TM> stun multiplier added on is beyond me.  I assumed it was an error in NH. 
> > 
> >Nope.  When you compare katana with ninja-to you will frequently find the 
> >ninja-to to be of similar construction but much heavier.  Aside from being 
> >a weapon it was used in place of a variety of other tools, thus the 
> >straight, heavier blade and large guard (square to keep it from rolling). 
>  
> Sorry, I disagree.  Yes, it was similar in construction.  Yes, it was 
> heavier.  However, the blade was not nearly as sharp.  I can see the +1 
> stun mult (maybe), but not giving it the same cutting power as a katana as 
> well.  It simply was not a superior weapon.  More varied in uses, but not a 
> superior weapon. 
 
When several local people begain a "Big Trouble" styled-game and another 
started a feudal Japan fantasy game, weapons got a major overhaul. STR 
Mins were dropped across the board (it does not take a 15 STR to use a 
katana one-handed) and damage dropped as well (katana 1d6+1).   
 
We also dropped OCV bonuses for most weapons, unless it was a 'fast' 
weapon (like a rapier). 
 
So, the katana became a 1d6+1 HKA, with a STR Min of 10 or 7 (1 or 2 
handed) 
 
The Ninja-to became a 1d6+1 HKA with a STR Min of 11/8 (1 or 2 handed) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:45:19 -0500 
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org> 
Subject: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 119 
 
> VL> That's not said in the Arkelos example, Rat, that's just restating your 
> VL> opinion as fact. 
>  
> No, it is a restating of the BBB's time chart as fact. 
 
Sure, as soon as you show where in that example it confines all the listed 
actions to a Phase (or, for that matter, where it says Arkelos attacks the 
trolls).  
 
> Please cite something in the BBB that makes this connection.  Also, please 
> cite something in the BBB that says that Energy Blast *always* requires an 
> attack roll. 
 
"To use an Energy Blast, the character states his target and makes an Attack 
Roll." (HSR p.65)  
 
"An Instant Power lasts just long enough for the character using the power to 
make an Attack Roll." (HSR p.52) 
 
Geoff Speare 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:50:53 -0800 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thursday, December 11, 1997 7:31 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>   The description of Linked in the HSR is horribly under-written.  I 
don't 
>think there's much debate over that, especially with as much debate 
that 
>it's generated over the years on how it works. 
 
You're singing to the choir on that one. 
 
>   But no interpretation of it that I've ever seen before you has 
ever 
>allowed non-proportional use, 
 
Agreed. 
 
>nor the use of the larger Power without the 
>use of the Linked Power.  Those are *extremely* important balancers 
for 
>this Limitation. 
 
Wrong. In fact, whether or not you can use the larger power without 
using the smaller power is one of the primary points of debate in The 
Great Linked Debate. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:50:53 -0800 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thursday, December 11, 1997 7:31 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>   The description of Linked in the HSR is horribly under-written.  I 
don't 
>think there's much debate over that, especially with as much debate 
that 
>it's generated over the years on how it works. 
 
You're singing to the choir on that one. 
 
>   But no interpretation of it that I've ever seen before you has 
ever 
>allowed non-proportional use, 
 
Agreed. 
 
>nor the use of the larger Power without the 
>use of the Linked Power.  Those are *extremely* important balancers 
for 
>this Limitation. 
 
Wrong. In fact, whether or not you can use the larger power without 
using the smaller power is one of the primary points of debate in The 
Great Linked Debate. 
 
Filksinger 
 
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:56:08 -0500 
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 02:31 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "T" == TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net> writes: 
> 
>T> Sorry, I disagree.  Yes, it was similar in construction.  Yes, it was 
>T> heavier.  However, the blade was not nearly as sharp. 
> 
>That is interesting, considering that many ninja-to were converted from 
>katana. 
 
Then why would the blade be heavier and straight?  And if the blade was the 
same, why would the sword do different damage?  If only the handle of a 
ninjato was heavier, then it would not explain the +1 stun mult.   
 
TokyoMark 
 
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:58:43 -0500 
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 123 
 
>When several local people begain a "Big Trouble" styled-game and another 
>started a feudal Japan fantasy game, weapons got a major overhaul. STR 
>Mins were dropped across the board (it does not take a 15 STR to use a 
>katana one-handed) and damage dropped as well (katana 1d6+1).   
 
Good point. 
 
> 
>We also dropped OCV bonuses for most weapons, unless it was a 'fast' 
>weapon (like a rapier). 
 
I like this idea. 
 
> 
>So, the katana became a 1d6+1 HKA, with a STR Min of 10 or 7 (1 or 2 
>handed) 
> 
>The Ninja-to became a 1d6+1 HKA with a STR Min of 11/8 (1 or 2 handed) 
 
I can go along with this.  Ninjato are close enough to katana to have about 
the same stats.  No way they are 1/3 more effective. 
 
TokyoMark 
 
 
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:58:43 -0500 
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 125 
 
>When several local people begain a "Big Trouble" styled-game and another 
>started a feudal Japan fantasy game, weapons got a major overhaul. STR 
>Mins were dropped across the board (it does not take a 15 STR to use a 
>katana one-handed) and damage dropped as well (katana 1d6+1).   
 
Good point. 
 
> 
>We also dropped OCV bonuses for most weapons, unless it was a 'fast' 
>weapon (like a rapier). 
 
I like this idea. 
 
> 
>So, the katana became a 1d6+1 HKA, with a STR Min of 10 or 7 (1 or 2 
>handed) 
> 
>The Ninja-to became a 1d6+1 HKA with a STR Min of 11/8 (1 or 2 handed) 
 
I can go along with this.  Ninjato are close enough to katana to have about 
the same stats.  No way they are 1/3 more effective. 
 
TokyoMark 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:08:40 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Link degression 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:24 PM 12/11/97 +0000, Mark Lemming wrote: 
>On the phrase "CON Stunned" 
> 
>How many people just want to reach across the table and slap the 
>person with a wet sea bass when they say that? 
 
   Not me, but then again this is the only place I've ever seen the phrase. 
   I suppose it does kinda go along with "ATM machine" or "PIN number," 
though. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: San Angelino (Re: Greetings) 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:12:01 -0800 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thursday, December 11, 1997 9:21 AM, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>  Actually, it doesn't stifle the genre at all. All it does is give 
an 
>"explanation" as to why all those weird things happen. And even so, 
it still 
>doesn't explain "how." It leaves all origins available, just as they 
have 
>always been. But it gives us the ability to attach some meaning to it 
all, so 
>to speak. A lot of folks have said "Well, why do all these powers 
happen to 
>people, anyway? Why doesn't a lethal dose of gamma radiation kill 
them like it 
>would in the real world?" With the flux we've answered that question 
(sort 
>of). Nothing is invalidated whatsoever. And, as always, GMs are free 
to 
>totally ignore the flux in their campaign. 
 
I like this. In my Satan's Children PBEM campaign, I decided that all 
powers were mystically based. You could get your power any way you 
wanted (gamma rays, bitten by radioactive spider, you name it), but 
the powers always operated by manipulating magic. 
 
Powers acted exactly like my normal supers games. This "source" for 
super powers didn't affect powers at all. What it _did_ do was work as 
a campaign element. _All_ paranormals in that campaign are treated 
like mutants in Marvel, frequently due to religious reasons. Not only 
was the famous quote, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live," applied 
frequently, but paranormal powers called into question the very 
foundations of many religions. (Suppose Moses was a paranormal. Worse 
yet, Jesus.) 
 
So, yes, an explanation for the weirdness is interesting to me. I like 
it. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: San Angelino (Re: Greetings) 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:12:01 -0800 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thursday, December 11, 1997 9:21 AM, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>  Actually, it doesn't stifle the genre at all. All it does is give 
an 
>"explanation" as to why all those weird things happen. And even so, 
it still 
>doesn't explain "how." It leaves all origins available, just as they 
have 
>always been. But it gives us the ability to attach some meaning to it 
all, so 
>to speak. A lot of folks have said "Well, why do all these powers 
happen to 
>people, anyway? Why doesn't a lethal dose of gamma radiation kill 
them like it 
>would in the real world?" With the flux we've answered that question 
(sort 
>of). Nothing is invalidated whatsoever. And, as always, GMs are free 
to 
>totally ignore the flux in their campaign. 
 
I like this. In my Satan's Children PBEM campaign, I decided that all 
powers were mystically based. You could get your power any way you 
wanted (gamma rays, bitten by radioactive spider, you name it), but 
the powers always operated by manipulating magic. 
 
Powers acted exactly like my normal supers games. This "source" for 
super powers didn't affect powers at all. What it _did_ do was work as 
a campaign element. _All_ paranormals in that campaign are treated 
like mutants in Marvel, frequently due to religious reasons. Not only 
was the famous quote, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live," applied 
frequently, but paranormal powers called into question the very 
foundations of many religions. (Suppose Moses was a paranormal. Worse 
yet, Jesus.) 
 
So, yes, an explanation for the weirdness is interesting to me. I like 
it. 
 
Filksinger 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:15:30 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:50 AM 12/11/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
> 
>BG>    I may be missing something here.  Where in the Arkelos example does 
>BG> it say that the Energy Blast that shatters the tree is done as a 
>BG> 0-Phase action? 
> 
>Activation of a power is a 0-phase action. 
> 
>Presence attacks are no time actions. 
 
   You must be using a different printing of the book than I am, because 
this is all mine has here, exactly as printed: 
 
   Example: Arkelos the mage, surrounded by 4 giant trolls, shouts 
"Surrender or die!" and shatters a tree with an Energy Blast spell. 
Arkelos has a PRE of 15 (15/5 = 3d6).  He is exhibiting a violent action 
(+1d6), but is at a combat disadvantage with 4 opponents (-1d6).  Arkelos 
has a previous reputation of being a powerful sorcerer (+1d6).  He gets a 
total of 3 + 1 - 1 + 1 = 4d6 for a Presence attack.  Arkelos rolls, and 
gets a total of 17.  The trolls all have PRE of 15.  Arkelos' PRE Attack 
equals their base PRE, so the trolls hesitate and Arkelos can act first. 
 
   Now, either (as I say) we're using different sources, or one of us is 
reading something wrongly. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:33:35 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:25 AM 12/10/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>At 10:39 AM 12/9/97 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>>At 02:48 PM 12/9/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>>>Again, there is no official ruling. You are both right. 
>> 
>>In fact, to be more accurate, there's no such thing as an "official ruling" 
>>in HERO.  Steve Peterson says: 
>> 
>>        "Our official position is that all rules are optional; each GM  
>>        should decide for themselves what rules to use. The rules in  
>>        the Hero System rulebook (which is included in Champions 4th 
>>        Edition) cover most situations pretty well. However, we've  
>>        presented many other rules in other books, either as variants 
>>        or rules for other situations not covered in the basic rules. 
>>        Whether or not those rules are used is up to the GM in each  
>>        case; we don't think that our opinion should be held over that 
>>        of an individual GM. Each GM should make their rule choices as  
>>        they see fit, to make the game suit their own style, and their  
>>        sense of what is fun. We tend to like most of the optional  
>>        rules we've presented, otherwise we wouldn't have presented  
>>        them.  But that doesn't mean we use those rules all of the  
>>        time, or that all of us at Hero hold each of those rules in  
>>        the same esteem. Opinions vary, and that's as it should be, or  
>>        so we think." 
> 
>   So, is that the official ruling?   ;-] 
> 
Unofficially, yes. 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:38:54 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero System Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, TokyoMark wrote: 
 
> >When several local people begain a "Big Trouble" styled-game and another 
> >started a feudal Japan fantasy game, weapons got a major overhaul. STR 
> >Mins were dropped across the board (it does not take a 15 STR to use a 
> >katana one-handed) and damage dropped as well (katana 1d6+1).   
>  
> Good point. 
>  
> > 
> >We also dropped OCV bonuses for most weapons, unless it was a 'fast' 
> >weapon (like a rapier). 
>  
> I like this idea. 
>  
> > 
> >So, the katana became a 1d6+1 HKA, with a STR Min of 10 or 7 (1 or 2 
> >handed) 
> > 
> >The Ninja-to became a 1d6+1 HKA with a STR Min of 11/8 (1 or 2 handed) 
>  
> I can go along with this.  Ninjato are close enough to katana to have about 
> the same stats.  No way they are 1/3 more effective. 
 
Of course, I forgot to mention we kept the +1 Stun (rigid/heavy blade). 
We asked the advice of one of the players, who is a taijutsu instructor 
and studies 'ninja lore' as a hobby. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:49:23 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Sabotage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:23 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
> 
>BG>    And I do have rules on taking control of a vehicle; all the Sabotage 
>BG> rules would add would be a way to plant a remote control receiver so 
>BG> that the saboteur can use his device. 
> 
>KISS: keep it simple. 
 
   Whenever possible, absolutely.  I personally consider it preferable to 
build a whole new construction element (especially a Skill or an Advantage) 
than have to twist the existing ones out of shape.  In this case, though, I 
think that'll be unnecessary; the existing rules should serve quite well, 
and I'll probably spend more space explaining which ones to use than giving 
new Skill Roll Modifiers and such. 
   (As an example, I would have preferred a simple +2 Advantage for Mental 
Paralysis than the construct Steve Long used, especially since he was 
already using one imported and one invented Advantage.) 
 
>For explosives, Demolitions is the skill required to destroy the sabotaged 
>thing.  A failed roll means that the thing is only damaged.  A simple 
>Concealment roll tells whether or not the device is hidden from casual 
>inspection. 
 
   This point (about the Demolitions failed roll) is a good one.  I think 
that the Sabotage section may end up being a little more detailed than I'd 
originally planned. 
   For Demolitions, I think a successful Roll would do full damage with no 
DEF, while a failed Roll would do half damage with DEF. 
 
>For "critical systems failure", mechanics or electronics (or other 
>appropriate skill) to have the system fail at a random time.  If the 
>sabateur wants the system to fail at a particular point -- after a given 
>amount of time or at a given event -- assess a -5 penalty to the roll.  If 
>the roll fails with the -5 but would have succeeded without the penalty, 
>the system may fail at a random time.  A second mechanics or electronics 
>skill roll tells whether or not the sabotage is concealed from casual 
>inspection. 
 
   Try this one on for size:  To fail at a specific point, the saboteur 
must make a second Skill Roll of the same type as the basic Roll, but with 
a penalty.  If a specific amount of time is needed, the penalty is -1 per 
step down the Time Chart from 1 segment.  I'll make up a table giving 
examples of specific other possibilities (such as when a specific system is 
used for the nth time, with a straight Roll for the first time and -1 for 
every 2x times). 
 
>The "remote control trick" is a variation of "critical systems failure", 
>though the SFX may require a Concealment skill roll rather than mechanics 
>or electronics for concealment. 
> 
>Random failures should be modified by a character's Luck or Unluck. 
 
   Oh, absolutely.  I already do that, in fact.  I don't think I'll put 
that particular point in TUSV, but I know of someone who is working on an 
Ultimate Skill User book, and I'll pass on that idea. 
 
>If the roll to conceal the sabotage succeeds, only characters that are 
>actively searching for signs of sabotage, or those with special senses that 
>can somehow detect the sabotage, will have a chance of noticing.  If it 
>fails, a normal Perception roll will reveal the tampering. 
 
   I'd say it requires either actively searching, or special senses *not 
available to the saboteur* that could detect it.  Otherwise, yes. 
 
>Defending against sabotage could be skill levels that assess a penalty to 
>the saboteur's rolls, or redundant systems (however you plan to implement 
>that). 
 
   Probably Skill Levels, defined as Failsafe Systems. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:56:26 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: To Steven Brust Readers 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>Teleports were most certainly used in combat! Never point-to-point within a 
 
>Actually, Mellar (The Jhereg in question), didn't do the teleport at all. 
 
Mostly b/c he was as lame-o a sorceror as Vlad. ;-) And unable to 
concentrate b/c he'd just ruined all his carefully laid plans by stabbing 
Aleria with a Morganti weapon. 
 
>He stabbed Aliera, realized something was wrong.  When Daymar tried to mind 
>probe him, he ordered the body guard who was now Vlad to teleport them out. 
> Vlad acted like he froze up, then Mellar ordered the other bodyguard to 
>teleport them out.   No one was attacking during this, so they were not 
>fighting.  I agree about the concentration.  Vlad during the later fight 
>comments Mellar would need 3-4 seconds to concentrate and tport out and he 
>was not going to give him the time. 
 
Right. So it's not exactly a 'non-combat' power. All that it really looks 
like it needs is an 'extra phase' with 'concentration'. Not something you 
can do during a sword fight, but stun your current opponant and you probably 
can leave before he recovers. 
 
>So, I still think tport is not 
>something you want to try in the middle of combat. 
 
Only if desparate. 
 
>  but if you don't get 
>killed during the time you are trying it, it can be done.  For some reason, 
>no one wears more than light leather armor, so the odds are not with you.:) 
 
Well, Vlad wouldn't b/c it would shoot his Stealth, and most of the other 
main characters didn't wear armor b/c they were kick-ass swordsmen and 
sorcerors. At one point I recall Aleria getting impaled on a sword but not 
being bothered by it too much (kept right on kicking ass). 
 
>I don't find anything that indicates Dragaerans were ill or disoriented by 
>teleporting.   
 
More of a 'grab your bearings' thing. Like if you're in a pitch black room 
and all the sudden somebody turns on the light. You pause, generally. 
 
>Yep, mind link was very common, with mind scan.  There were also other 
>detect spells to find people over wide distances and to trace teleports. 
 
Once you've bought the basic Mind Scan for using Mind Link, it's fairly 
cheap to extend the premise to make for location spells and teleport traces. 
 
>Just about everyone was at least minorly psionic. 
 
Yeah, but they had to be trained to use it. 
 
>Aliera comments Easterns 
>were given psionic abilities almost the equal of Dragaerans.  It might be 
>equal, Aliera might be biased;)  
 
Aleria had rights to biases, she was the daughter of Verra, after all. 
Superiority complex? Nah... 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:56:27 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
>   I have a question for the masses, though. Would anyone like to see more 
> "Cardboard Heroes" type of products? I don't think it would be too difficult 
> to do, even as a one sheet insert in a book or as a one sheet tear-out. 
> Thoughts? 
 
 
	YES! 
 
	YES!  YES!  YES!  YES!  YES!  YES!  YES! 
 
	Do you get the picture? 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:04:22 -0500 
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Cc: Hero System Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>> I can go along with this.  Ninjato are close enough to katana to have about 
>> the same stats.  No way they are 1/3 more effective. 
> 
>Of course, I forgot to mention we kept the +1 Stun (rigid/heavy blade). 
>We asked the advice of one of the players, who is a taijutsu instructor 
>and studies 'ninja lore' as a hobby. 
 
Well, everyone has their opinion:)  Overall, I'd likely keep the +1 Stun, 
but have it do less cutting damage than a katana.  Sure the blade is heavy, 
but not heavier than a hand and a half or two handed sword and neither of 
those have the +1 stun mod.   
 
TokyoMark 
 
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:04:22 -0500 
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Cc: Hero System Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>> I can go along with this.  Ninjato are close enough to katana to have about 
>> the same stats.  No way they are 1/3 more effective. 
> 
>Of course, I forgot to mention we kept the +1 Stun (rigid/heavy blade). 
>We asked the advice of one of the players, who is a taijutsu instructor 
>and studies 'ninja lore' as a hobby. 
 
Well, everyone has their opinion:)  Overall, I'd likely keep the +1 Stun, 
but have it do less cutting damage than a katana.  Sure the blade is heavy, 
but not heavier than a hand and a half or two handed sword and neither of 
those have the +1 stun mod.   
 
TokyoMark 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:05:13 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
Subject: Crossover Adventures (Re: Going off on a little tangent) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>    When I learned that Hero was going to not only start a new universe but 
> a new game system as well, I was inspired to assemble notes for an 
> adventure that would allow GMs to go directly from one to the other with a 
> "logical" explanation.  Entitled "Doomsday," it detailed what happens when 
> 
 
    Hmm...Now there's an idea. Crossover's are a long time annoying staple of 
comic books. But they 
might not be so annoying in gaming modules. Perhaps a CU / San Angelo crossover 
adventure 
could be written. 
    Once San Angelo comes out, we will effectively have 4 published universes to 
Champions: 
CU (4th edition) 
pre-4th edition CU, which had a diferent team as the champions. 
Strike Force 
San Angelo 
 
And you consider New Millenium to be Champs, that makes 5. 
 
With the execption of #2 which I think can't be touched for legal reasons 
(correct?), all the others 
could be used in crossovers... 
 
    Perhaps 'Heroic Adventures #3 could be a series of crossover adventures. 
 
Hey, it's a thought... 
 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:09:37 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> >>VL> You can't use EB without the attack roll, 
> >>Sure you can.  Fire it in the air as part of a presence attack.  It falls 
> >>under "demonstration of a power". 
> >Sounds good, except that it doesn't fit the description of the power.  p. 
> >65: "A character with this Standard Power can attack at range.  To use an 
> >Energy Blast, the character states his target and makes an Attack Roll." 
> >Seems pretty straightforward -- a use of energy blast IS an attack, and 
> >requires an Attack Roll. 
> 
>    In the case of using it by firing it into the sky, the character makes 
> an Attack Roll against the Sky (which would have a DCV well into the 
> three-digit negative numbers, albeit with some pretty good Range Mods). 
 
    I dunno, if a GM made me roll dice to shoot the sky I look at him like he 
was from Mars... 
Then pick up my dice, shake them a bit, and throw them at him... :) 
 
    Then see if I had a dunce cap on hand. :) 
 
-- 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:13:39 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> Uh, no.  This is why I keep saying that Long often seems like he doesn't 
> understand the rules.  The first computer construction on p. 99 is 
> explicitly supposed to be a "conventional" computer; THEN he gives an 
> example of the direct-character approach in the "mini-computer" following it. 
 
	Hmmmm.  Yeah, I seem to recall that.  Oh, well.  It's still a 
valid construction and it does have the advantages I listed -- ie, more 
direct control of the skills, not having to interface at a possible 
different DEX and SPD, etc; as well as no controller roll needed (Computer 
Ops in my campaign).  However, it is a waste of points, in almost all 
cases.  Chalk it up as missing the place in the BBB where Computers are 
said to be purchased as followers.  Quick, find it!  I never knew where it 
was 'till someone here pointed it out. 
 
> >	Hmmm.  This rule really struck me as a collaborated addition by 
> >the HeroGames editors fixing what they saw as a problem.  I think it works 
> >more like MindScan should, really. 
> 
> That would suggest the Hero Games editors have actual opinions about the 
> game rules, which in the past hasn't seemed to be the case. :] 
 
	I've talked to Steve Long a little about his products, and he said 
that the Hero editors were pretty involved in his projects, especially the 
Ultimate series.  For instance, the Mental Combat maneuvers were 
Peterson's, not Long's.  Long had his own that were bumped.  (I have a 
copy of those, BTW, if anyone is interested.  Long said he wouldn't mind 
them being distributed to the list.) 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:17:05 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
Subject: Re: San Angelo Origin of Powers (Re: Greetings) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> << yeah. . that's kinda the POINT. All those explanations are ALLOWED. . . 
> BUT, IF you want something different... You have a nice, general concept at 
> your disposal.. . .>> 
> 
>   You've hit the nail on the head. Thanks! 
> 
> << the flux doesn't sound like it's going to be 'encountered' very often, just 
> it's *results*, but still. . >> 
> 
>   The way we've written the flux into the campaign world, it's a totally 
> undetectable energy; merely a hypothesis of a small group of scholars and 
> scientists (but we all know their theory is correct <G>). 
 
    Perhaps you could provide two or three of the 'opposing' views society has 
created. 
 
Like what is the churches explanation? The New Agers? An opposing scientific view? 
 
A view from the psychological camps? Maybe even some obviously crackpot theories? 
 
    Perhaps throw in a few 'counter arguments' and then leave if undeclared as to 
who is right. 
 
-- 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: jhebert@texas.net 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:26:19 -0600 
From: Jeff Hebert <jhebert@texas.net> 
Subject: Re: Greetings (Cardboard Heroes) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:49 PM 12/11/97 -0600, Sparx wrote: 
>>  I have a question for the masses, though. Would anyone like to see more 
>>"Cardboard Heroes" type of products? I don't think it would be too difficult 
>>to do, even as a one sheet insert in a book or as a one sheet tear-out. 
>>Thoughts? 
> 
>Actually, Yes, I would love some more up to date and different cardboard  
>heroes.  They are cheap, easy to use, and it is nice to get 20+ cardboard vs  
>one per minature.  We use them simply because we did just get into the  
>minature part of Champions and with players switching characters about every  
>four to eight games it is cheaper as I said just to whip out a new cardboard  
>then go buy a new minature.  More please :)  Take it easy and talk at you 
later. 
> 
>Sparx 
> 
 
 
My friend and I do custom character markers for our whole squad. I could 
assemble them and have them available for download if anyone would find 
that helpful. You'd have to have some way to print them out in color, 
though, so I don't know if it would actually be worthwhile or not... 
 
Jeff 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
               Jeff Hebert 
            jhebert@texas.net 
    Visit the home page of The Crusaders! -- 
 http://lonestar.texas.net/~jhebert/crusaders.htm 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:27:50 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> VL> * Activation of a power that requires an attack roll unavoidably 
> VL>   attaches a 1/2 Phase action to the 0-Phase action. 
> 
> Please cite something in the BBB that makes this connection.  Also, please 
> cite something in the BBB that says that Energy Blast *always* requires an 
> attack roll. 
 
 
	Let's turn that one around, Rat, as you know there is no statement 
with that *always*.  Where in the BBB does it say that one can use EB *at 
all* without an Attack Roll. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:45:37 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes: 
>VL> Nope.  The problem is, Energy Blast requires more than a 0-Phase action 
>VL> to activate.  It requires a 0-Phase action AND AN ATTACK ROLL to 
>VL> activate. 
> 
>It requires a half-phase action and an attack roll to attack with it, but 
>it is still a power, and powers require a 0-phase action to activate unless 
>they have the Extra Time Limitation.  "Activate a power" does not equate to 
>"make an attack" anywhere in the BBB.  They cannot be equivalent because 
>0-phase and half-phase actions occour at different times during one's 
>action phase. 
> 
This is where I have problems with your logic.  (There may be no real 
problem, I'm just not getting it.)  If I have Extra Time on my Energy 
Blast, then, when it activates, I won't have the 1/2 Phase to attack with 
it.  I couldn't use it to hit someone for damage.  Could you explain, 
extending your prior arguments, how I *would*? 
 
Thanks, 
Jerry 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:48:40 +0000 (GMT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Oh pu-lease... 
 
My favorite comic book character could take your favorite comic book 
character anyday. 
 
And my daddy could beat up your daddy to. 
 
But as for actual comparrision, where the stats published in the Marvel RPG 
official? 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:49:41 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Computer Questions 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>	I have constructed the base statistics for a computer.  It is 
>a normal computer, not an AI.   
>	I would like to give the computer some Disadvantages to lower 
>it's cost.  However, I've seen conflicting information in regards to 
>how computers are handled in HERO. 
>	On a chart labeled General Computer Information in Champions it  
>states: 
>	Normal Computers have: 
>	... 
>	3)  No Psychological Disadvantages 
> 
>	Under the section 'Normal Computers,' however, it states: 
>	...  They cannot have Disadvantages. 
> 
Well, that really doesn't seem contadictory, just unnecessarily redundant. 
If it can have no Disadvantages, they should've just said that, instead of 
making an assertion that it cannot have a specific type, as well. 
 
>	In the only other Champions book I have acquired, 'Underworld Enemies,' 
>the write up includes the following for a Normal Computer known as  
>'The Gallows' (pg. 44): 
>	Disadvantages 
>   20 | Physical Limitation: Must obey creator's orders 
>   20 | Physical Limitation: Computer 
>   20 | Distinctive Features: Computer (Not Conc, Major Reaction) 
>   10 | DNPC: Creator (As Powerful), 14- 
> 
<*GAG*>  man, I'm glad I didn't see this before.  Personally, I wouldn't 
give *any* of these to a regular computer... *maybe* to an AI, but the 
first would probably be a Psych. Lim. 
 
OTOH, I could see giving Phys Lims like, "Cannot run games (5pt),"  "16-bit 
processor (10pt)" and others along those lines.  What were you thinking of 
for Disads? 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:57:32 -0800 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: Link degression 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:24 PM 12/11/97 +0000, you wrote: 
>On the phrase "CON Stunned" 
> 
>How many people just want to reach across the table and slap the 
>person with a wet sea bass when they say that? 
 
I lean more toward a pillowcase full of old polyedral dice, personally 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:57:35 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Seeking Those Star Hero (II) Authors 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
   I'm trying to find e-mail addresses for David Berge, Albert Deschesne, 
and/or Shawn Wilson.  These three guys authored a manuscript for a second 
edition of Star Hero which has been posted to Red October Online for review 
(I guess because they had a go-ahead to write it, though it never came 
through for unspecified reasons). 
   On reviewing my own manscript for TUSV, I've been reminded that I've 
used a number of rules from their mansucript.  (What can I say? They're 
good rules!)  The problem is that, as far as I know, they don't know about 
it yet, and I'd like to at least have emailed permission from one of them 
to feel comfortable with putting the stuff into the final work. 
   Can anyone help me here? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:00:49 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Sabotage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:22 AM 12/10/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   What I'm leaning toward is this (to give a simplified version):  The 
>saboteur decides what he wants to do to the vehicle, and the GM assigns an 
>appropriate Skill, just like a normal application.  And, of course, there's 
>a difficulty penalty for what the saboteur is trying to do: 
> 
>   Disabling a Device: -1 per ten Active Points being shut off. 
>   Planting a Device (such as a bomb or remote control): -1 per ten Active 
>Points being added. 
>   Weakening a Device (such as Burnout Rolls, Extra Time Limitation, etc.): 
>-1 per -1/4 Limitation being imposed on a device. 
> 
I like the fact that it goes along with the "-1/10 Active Points" from the 
RSR lim.  I don't know how much the last one should be, tho... maybe -1/10 
Real Points difference in the change?  ie Tacking a "minor" lim on a larger 
power is harder than putting it on a minor one.  Weakening the motor 
(Running or Flight) would probably be harder than weakening (to the same 
extent) the radio.  (Maybe.  Just a thought.) 
 
- Jerry 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 11 Dec 1997 17:03:57 -0500 
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>>>>> "T" == TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net> writes: 
 
>> That is interesting, considering that many ninja-to were converted from 
>> katana. 
 
T> Then why would the blade be heavier and straight? 
 
The blade is not heavier, the whole weapon is heavier... and not all 
ninja-to were straight. 
 
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes: 
 
VL> To the best of my knowledge, the video game doesn't make too many 
VL> claims as to style, 
 
You should read CAPCOM's literature about the game, because they do call 
Zangief's and Blanka's styles "Sambo" and "Capoeira", respectively. 
 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:09:49 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Chaos Theory 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
   Well, with the manuscript for TUSV almost out of the way, the time is 
coming for me to prepare for what comes next. 
   Currently on the slate, I will be doing parallel production of 
"Northwest Champions," which will cover the states of Oregon, Washington, 
and Idaho for the [original] Champions Universe; and an update on VOICE. 
   I had originally expected to be turning to a PRIMUS update, but someone 
else (I won't say who at this time) appears to have snatched the project 
from me.  While this was somewhat frustrating to me, this does mean that, 
one way or another, you will definitely see a PRIMUS update in the 
relatively near future. 
   However, it's also occurred to me to see what I can do even after that. 
What I'm thinking of doing is a full campaign setting, the description of 
which is below. 
 
CHAOS THEORY 
   Imagine a world where conspiracies are everywhere.  The 
military-industrial complex controls all applications of technology. 
Deposed royalty seeks to retake their lost thrones.  Aliens secretly live 
among us, posing as our neighbors.  Demon-worshipping sorcerers plot dire 
ends for our cherished social institutions.  Psychics manipulate our 
leaders' decisions from afar.  Dragons, vampires, and werewolves pass 
themselves off as normal humans. 
   Oh, did I mention that this is a comedy? 
   That's right!  Ever wonder what "The X-Files" would have been like with 
Mel Brooks as producer?  Could James Bond take on the cast of "Third Rock 
>From the Sun"?  What if "1984" had been rewritten by Douglas Adams?  And 
how would the film "JFK" have looked if it had been directed by the Zucker 
brothers, with Leslie Nielson as Jim Garrison?   
   In this parody of paranoid conspiracy stories, the PCs are all agents 
for the Global Organization for Order and Decency (that's right, they 
really are the Forces of GOOD).  They are the only people who are aware of 
the conspiracies that threaten to topple civilization as we know it.  The 
PCs are guided by a Handler who never leaves the complex, and a shadowy 
Director who rarely leaves his office except to congratulate the PCs on a 
job well done:  "Thank you.  Thank you very much."  (He comes across as a 
hound dog, but is really a big ol' teddy bear.) 
   This is a world where the technocrats know your every move, but are 
helpless without their TV remote.  Where psychic powers really can be 
blocked by wrapping your head in aluminum foil.  Where one might find 
oneself being chased by a pack of werewolves, at least until one runs past 
a fire hydrant. 
   The full book will include a Package Deal and equipment lists for GOOD, 
full write-ups of all six conspiracies, an introductory adventure featuring 
all six conspiracies, a shorter adventure for each conspiracy, and several 
scenario briefs. 
 
   What kind of feedback I get from the list for this will directly impact 
whether or not I do this book.  (It may also influence the size and 
content.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:11:25 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Tokyo Mark wrote: 
>>  
>> Funny... I generally prefer to have the PCs be a mid-level hero group. 
>> The X-Men rather than the Avengers, so to speak. (Well, without the 
>> pretension and angst.:)) 
> 
>Maybe, but the X-Men have fought the Avengers and did just fine, so I'm 
>not sure if I agree they are not roughly the same level.  Mind you, both 
>teams change so much, at any given moment either team might have a huge 
>edge.:) 
> 
Especially when the Avengers were "dead."  : )  And, then again, no one 
knows the "new" line-up yet...  And besides, are talking *just* the X-Men, 
or including X-Factor, Generation X, EXcaliber, 
SupercalifragilisticXpialidocious? 
What about the people who are associated with them?  X-Man, Cable, and the 
other Nate Greys that are out there? 
 
And, is it just the current roster of Avengers?  'cause the Beast could be 
in either group...  and then, there's the defunct West Coast Avengers.  And 
then there's the Great Lakes Avengers... oh, wait, during the Heroes Reborn 
thing, they bought into the Thunderbolts franchise... now they're the 
Lightning Rods.*  Ah, well... 
 
* see whatever issue of Deadpool that was... 
 
Okay, Comic Geek mode off... 
 
- Jerry 
(who's still waiting for Busiek's Avengers...) 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 11 Dec 1997 17:17:22 -0500 
Lines: 49 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
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>>>>> "GS" == Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org> writes: 
 
GS> "To use an Energy Blast, the character states his target and makes an 
GS> Attack Roll." (HSR p.65) 
 
So, we have a specific case of Energy Blast always reqiring an attack roll. 
How about RKA, Flash, etc.,? 
 
What about the classic schtick of firing one's six-shooter in the air to 
get everyone's attention?  Is that an attack?  If so, what is the target? 
What gets hit by this attack. 
 
There is no target.  Westerns ignore the fact that the bullet will 
eventually come back down as fast as it was fired up.  There is no target, 
there is no DCV, there is no attack roll. 
 
GS> "An Instant Power lasts just long enough for the character using the 
GS> power to make an Attack Roll." (HSR p.52) 
 
I do not dispute this, nor does it contradict me when I reiterate the BBB 
that activation of a power is a 0-phase action.  Use of a power or powers 
to make an attack is a half-phase attack action -- technically it is the 
act of making the attack, not the use of the power, that constitutes the 
attack action.  You activate the Energy Blast as a 0-phase action, and use 
it in an attack as a half-phase action.  The EB ceases to exist at the end 
of the attack action.  Standard Champions combat timing. 
 
The dispute is whether or not an Energy Blast and Flash activated as 
0-phase actions may be used as a single half-phase attack action.  If they 
may with a limitation then they should without that limitation, because a 
limitation is *supposed* to restrict the usefulness of a power. 
 
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:20:12 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Link degression 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
> >On the phrase "CON Stunned" 
> > 
> >How many people just want to reach across the table and slap the 
> >person with a wet sea bass when they say that? 
>  
> It's a necessary evil.  I've gotten into the habit of saying it myself often 
> just to avoid the (what should be nonexistent) confusion with getting KO'd. 
 
On the other extreme, I've never felt any need to bass-slap on account of 
the fact that I've never _heard_ the phrase. 
 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:21:42 EST 
Subject: Re: Things I expect in a Champions supplement 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Obviously there should be some kind of plot that could be interwoven with 
an ongoing campiagn, or played as a one-off (dead easy, huh?), supervillain 
cast and possibly some good, well-developed NPC's that can be reused. >> 
 
  These are all things that are planned for the San Angelo line. ONe of our 
plans is to re-use certain NPCs in adventures and such, with occasional 
"revisions" appearing. Not so many that folks feel that they are simply buying 
new books with old villains all the time, but often enough to inject some 
continuity (and an ongoing story line) into the series. 
 
<< ...I was sure they hoped to follow a policy of only publishing adventures 
that would add something to the game,... a bit of added value. >> 
 
  This, too, is part of what we hope to accomplish with the new line. 
 
<< would people like to see a mini-comic using stock characters with each 
adventure?? I know _loads_ of would be comic book artists who would sell their 
soul to get the opportunity for such exposure......>> 
 
  And I know one publisher of 4th Ed. material who would love to find these 
artists! :D 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:21:46 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << Funny... I generally prefer to have the PCs be a mid-level hero group. 
> The X-Men rather than the Avengers, so to speak. >> 
>  
>   Keep in mind, though, that I didn't address their power level, only their 
> status as the city's main heroes. ;) 
 
Well, that's what I was referring to. (I mean, with the ridiculous 
power-ups they've gotten in recent years, you could almost make a case 
for the X-Men being close to Avengers class in power too. Still not 
comparable in importance, though.) 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:21:46 EST 
Subject: Re: Things I expect in a Champions supplement 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< I think I would like it PROVIDED it DID NOT shorten the amount of 
other, useful info, provided to me.>> 
 
  A page or two of fiction to go along with the material in the sourcebook, 
perhaps? 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:21:48 EST 
Subject: Re: San Angelo Ethnic makeup 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Yeah, the city. hey, the NPC's too. I get tired of seeing mono-ethnic 
stuff. It 
fits if the location is mono-ethnic, but not in a place like New York or 
California. >> 
 
  We have established San Angelo as a diverse city. For example, the Justice 
Foundation (the sample PC hero team in the book) consists of: 
 
  Corona: A white female with heat powers, who is also an attorney and could 
be interpreted as living an alternative lifestyle. She's also the team leader. 
  Lotus: A Chinese-American brick (but certainly doesn't *look* like one <G>) 
  Azteca: A Mexican-American martial artist 
  Savant: An African-American mentalist, and the senior member of the group 
  Cavalier: An Anglo (European-American?) powered armor hero. 
 
<< Hey, there's a dif. Just wanted to know if you knew that. I'm not asking 
for super 
detail here,but I don't want to see em all get grouped into being a bunch of 
drunk 
mexicans in the back of an old pickup doing 35 on the freeway either. :) (Hey, 
it's a description I've heard used to label anyone speaking spanish, go 
figure...) >> 
 
  And a very inaccurate one, I know. San Angelo is very diverse, and we 
mention quite a few nationalities and cultures in the book as far as 
describing the demoigraphics of the city. Heck, we even list the percentages 
of each ethnicity and religion for the city *and* the unincorporated county! 
 
<< You go on to say things that make me feel as if you're giving it a good 
effort, if 
that holds, I'll be satisfied. >> 
 
  In that case, I'm quite confident that you'll be satisfied. ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:21:53 EST 
Subject: Re: GRG, San Angelino, and even Sengoku (was Re: Greetings) 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Where there is no rationale behind "Super-Powers", They just exist. Where 
heroes have morals, but are not perfect. They make mistakes but understand it 
when they do.>> 
 
  That's easy to do with the San Angelo line. Just drop the whole Flux issue 
from the campaign. ;) 
 
<< Any plans to expand Sengoku out to China and Korea. I'd kill for a game 
that did a good job of showing 'medevil Korea'. I get so tired of reminding 
people it exists and played so major a role in the history of the region.>> 
 
  We have a Chinese sourcebook in the works (working title is "The Middle 
Kingdom"), but nothing in the works for Korea. We'd *like* to do a Korea 
sourcebook for Sengoku, but haven't had anyone come forward to write it yet. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:21:56 EST 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Good question. Did you say 5th Ed.? If so, listen to this group frequently, 
and take lots of notes.>> 
 
  Is anyone on this list willing to create a FAQ of sorts, with all of the 
points raised re: 5th Edition listed concisely? I'll be honest, I don't have 
the time to do it or I would. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:21:59 EST 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Funny... I generally prefer to have the PCs be a mid-level hero group. 
The X-Men rather than the Avengers, so to speak. >> 
 
  Keep in mind, though, that I didn't address their power level, only their 
status as the city's main heroes. ;) 
 
  But you're right, it would be easy to change. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:22:01 EST 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Hmm. For somebody who doesn't read much comics, you certainly know the 
right name to drop to get a positive response.:)>> 
 
  Well, it's one of the few comics I read with any semblence of frequency. It 
was also one of the inspirations for the author of San Angelo, Kurt's a heck 
of a nice guy, and we're running a SA ad in a future issue of Astro City. What 
does that tell you? ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:26:58 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: RE: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> >As far as other's comments go about making you use them linked powers  
> >proportionately, that's potentially a very good idea for a house rule ...  
> >so long as one is not forced to use the linked power when one uses the  
> >non-limited power it is linked to. 
>  
>    Now, hold on there.  That's exactly what the Linked Limitation *does.* 
> It says so right there in the description. 
 
No, it says that can only use the Linked Power when the non-limited Power 
is in use. It neither says nor implies anywhere that the Linked Power 
_must_ be activated when the non-limited Power is in use. 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:29:13 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
>   One of the things we're planning for our San Angelo line are books which 
> contain a variety of material, all centered around a common theme or topic. 
> For example, in our PART sourcebook (planned for next summer), we're including 
> some new rules and skills, tips on GMing PART scenarios, tips on playing PART 
> PCs, new PART equipment (weapons, armor, tools, etc.), new PART vehicles, some 
> short adventures, NPCs, supervillains, etc. In short, some material for 
> everybody, players and GMs alike. 
 
Well, that's nice. Now what the heck is "PART"?:) 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:43:53 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Tokyo Mark wrote: 
 
> > 	Um.  I really think it depends if the Avenger Big Boys show up or 
> > not.  They have legit Cosmic-level heroes, the X-Men don't.  There are a 
> > few on that team that could take on the entire X-Men team, let's say Thor 
> > and Iron Man (OK, he's elsewhere, now, but . . ) for starters. 
>  
> I think Thor was around for one of the battles, but could be wrong.  The 
> big edge the X-Men have is all those mentalists.  It's already been shown 
> Rogue can absorb Thor fully, so he's out of action. 
 
True, but given who ludicrously inconsistent this is with the limitations 
that have later been imposed on Rogue's abilities, I'm inclined to ignore 
it. Even if we assume she can do it, she's done it before, so Thor's going 
to be expecting it. What are her odds of successfully making skin-to-skin 
contact, then? 
 
> Wolverine matches up well with Capt. A. 
 
If you're looking for match-ups which demonstrate how completely 
outclassed the X-Men are, I agree.:) 
 
And of course, there's always the Quasar problem... he's a full-fledged 
Avenger, has power rivalling the Silver Surfer's, and is immune to mental 
manipulation (if the Overmind couldn't touch him, I don't think the 
X-mentalists have any chance). You could clone each of the X-Men off 5 
times and have them gang-pile him, and I still don't think they'd have 
much chance. 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:01:30 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:50 PM 12/11/97 +1000, Michael Jones wrote: 
>At 12:11 AM 12/11/97 -0500, Tokyo Mark wrote: 
>>>  
>>> Funny... I generally prefer to have the PCs be a mid-level hero group. 
>>> The X-Men rather than the Avengers, so to speak. (Well, without the 
>>> pretension and angst.:)) 
>> 
>>Maybe, but the X-Men have fought the Avengers and did just fine, so I'm 
>>not sure if I agree they are not roughly the same level.  Mind you, both 
>>teams change so much, at any given moment either team might have a huge 
>>edge.:) 
>> 
>It's also the outlaw/sanctioned thing. . if the x-men weren't so  
>busy whining and actually FOUGHT CRIME occasionally, they'd 
>probably have a 'professional, superior' rivalry with the avengers. .  
>then again the avengers don't fight crime at the mo either. . . 
>is all that 'hero's recycled' stuff OVER yet??  
> 
Yep.  Then they did "Heroes Return" a four-ish mini-series by Peter David. 
Spidey was involved.  Now they're starting the four books over at #1.  FF 
#'s 1 and 2 are already out, Cap is gonna have #2 out soon, Iron Man #1 
came out yesterday (good read) and Avengers #1 will be out in 2 weeks. 
Busiek is writing Iron Man and the Avengers, so I'll be getting them... 
Lobdell, an X-writer, is on FF, and the old creative team (Waid, is it?) is 
on Cap.  All look good. 
 
ObChamp: I've taken both approaches with my groups; the mutant outlaws, and 
the sanctioned super-team.  And the one in the middle, city's major heroes, 
but not nation's best.  All seemed to work okay, although they have 
different feels. 
How much is "National Sanction" worth?  Same as Federal Police Powers?  I 
can't remember what being an Avenger gets you.  (Although it gets you 
access to SHIELD files, at least.) 
 
- Jerry 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
From: "Michael Nunn" <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Organization:  Rising Force Publications 
Date:          Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:02:08 +0000 
Subject:       Champions  5th Edition 
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   I am going to go out on a limb here, but I don't want to see a "Whole  
New Champions" in 5th edition.  In fact I don't really want to see a  
5th edition, unless the main thrust of it is addition and improvement  
over 4th ed.  
 
   I like 4th edition, no it's not perfect, but what I don't like I  
modify, and what I don't like and what Vox doesn't like could be  
completely different.  One of the great things about Hero is that is  
is so easy to gear for your own game. 
 
Just my humble opinion... 
 
Michael  
 
 
 
    
 
 
 
"Herozine" Rising Force Publications "SUPER" RPG 'zine, 
check out our web site at:    
http://users.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
From: "Michael Nunn" <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Organization:  Rising Force Publications 
Date:          Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:02:13 +0000 
Subject:       Cardboard Heroes 
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>>  I have a question for the masses, though. Would anyone like to see more 
>>"Cardboard Heroes" type of products? I don't think it would be too difficult 
>>to do, even as a one sheet insert in a book or as a one sheet tear-out. 
>>Thoughts? 
 
 
A couple of issues back we did a sheet of blank cardboard heros, I  
used the template drawings we had been running and made a big sheet of  
them, so you could color in your PC's costume.   
 
On Jeff Dee's web site he has a couple of sheets of V&V style chip  
counters you can download. 
 
Michael 
 
 
 
 
"Herozine" Rising Force Publications "SUPER" RPG 'zine, 
check out our web site at:    
http://users.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:09:55 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
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At 12:49 AM 12/11/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>> > Funny... I generally prefer to have the PCs be a mid-level hero group. 
>> > The X-Men rather than the Avengers, so to speak. (Well, without the 
>> > pretension and angst.:)) 
>> 
>> Maybe, but the X-Men have fought the Avengers and did just fine, so I'm 
>> not sure if I agree they are not roughly the same level.  Mind you, both 
>> teams change so much, at any given moment either team might have a huge 
>> edge.:) 
> 
>	Um.  I really think it depends if the Avenger Big Boys show up or 
>not.  They have legit Cosmic-level heroes, the X-Men don't.  There are a 
>few on that team that could take on the entire X-Men team, let's say Thor 
>and Iron Man (OK, he's elsewhere, now, but . . ) for starters. 
> 
I think he was talking current rosters...  yes, the Silver Surfer has 
worked with the Avengers.  Thor is a good example, but I'm still not sure. 
You counting Charles Xavier, Cable, Jean Grey, and X-Man (Nate Grey) for 
the X's?  Most of them touch on cosmic... although not literally so. 
 
And Iron Man is back.  Thor was gone, too, btw. 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:15:14 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Tokyo Mark wrote: 
 
>> 	Um.  I really think it depends if the Avenger Big Boys show up or 
>> not.  They have legit Cosmic-level heroes, the X-Men don't.  There are a 
>> few on that team that could take on the entire X-Men team, let's say Thor 
>> and Iron Man (OK, he's elsewhere, now, but . . ) for starters. 
> 
>I think Thor was around for one of the battles, but could be wrong.  The 
>big edge the X-Men have is all those mentalists.  It's already been shown 
>Rogue can absorb Thor fully, so he's out of action.  Wolverine matches up 
>well with Capt. A.  I think it's alot more even than you might think.   
> 
I agree with your assessment but... wouldn't *completely* absorbing Thor 
put Rogue out, too?  She did this to Juggy in... um, Spider-Man Team-Up 
#100(?).  She went berserk, and had absorbed his memories, too.  They had 
to put her down, then. 
 
>And being Cosmic is not all it's cracked up to be, Spidey beat up a Herald 
>of Galactus once (Firelord).:) 
> 
Ick.  yeah.  Cosmic is just an SFX for being real powerful, generally. 
Don't forget that the Fantastic Four got their powers from "Cosmic Rays." 
Or has that been retconned?  : ) 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:17:57 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Sabotage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Rick Holding wrote: 
>	But perhaps you are missing the greatest act of sabotage.  Taking  
>control of the vehicle.  Now, that is where the villian has the most fun.   
>Mechanics, electronics, system ops and a fair bit of time.  The negatives  
>would depend on the relative level of technology of the vehicle, I suppose.   
>Try considering a normal vehicle as base (what, 20 to 30 points?) and apply  
>-1 per 10 points above that base.  Countering that would probarly be several  
>people working on it (complemetry rolls) and maybe a decent amount of time.   
>Other modifiers could be added both positive and negative for research time  
>and effort spent. 
> 
Harkening back to "Batman Forever" perhaps?  Yep, the Penguin took control 
of the Batmobile with ol' Batty still in it. 
 
The other thing is... did we ever reach a consensus on how much an 
"Everyman" Vehicle is worth?  I liked the part about the multiple of your 
wealth... 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:20:52 -0800 
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell) 
Subject: Re: Things I expect in a Champions supplement 
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII 
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You know, when I saw this subject I thought it was going to 
be a threat about typos and math errors. 
 
						-Sam 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:28:14 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 04:26 AM 12/11/97 EST, Mark@GRG wrote: 
><< Are there any plans for more superhero miniatures in the foreseeable 
>future? >> 
> 
>  That's a question for Hero Games, I'm afraid. I don't know of any plans for 
>more Champions figs. Sorry. 
> 
>  I have a question for the masses, though. Would anyone like to see more 
>"Cardboard Heroes" type of products? I don't think it would be too difficult 
>to do, even as a one sheet insert in a book or as a one sheet tear-out. 
>Thoughts? 
> 
I think this'd be a *great* idea.  They are generally easier to keep track 
of then miniatures, and lighter, easier to transport, etc. 
And I saw some talk of this on the GURPS newsgroup a while back.  It was 
well received there, anyway. 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:31:57 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage (Going off on a little tangent) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Tokyo Mark wrote: 
 
> > Nice phrasing... makes one wonder exactly what Vox did to Steve to get him 
> > to make said ruling.:) ("Reverse that ruling or I'll make you throw out 
> > the Hero System for a fixed power list system and rework the Champions U 
> > to emulate a style of comics which not only sucks but is dying in the 
> > marketplace!" Oh wait... they actually _did_ that...) 
>  
> Heh.:)  Well, if you mean books not based on the Golden Age, I have to 
> disagree. 
 
I don't. (How many "based on the Golden Age" books are there out there? 
Now, if you want to talk Silver Age, that's different.) 
 
> As far as I know they are doing pretty well in the market 
> place.  If you mean the 'blood drenched spiked hair guys and bad girls 
> with big guns' that the press release talked about, yep, it's hurting. 
 
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about - the Image-style stuff (which is of 
course a bad over-generalization considering some of the things Image has 
published, but hopefully you know what I mean). 
 
> But I didn't see alot of that in C:TNM. 
 
No? To be honest, I didn't read too much of the new background... that 
terrible, terrible art was enough of an immediate turn-off that I wasn't 
interested in looking farther. 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:33:06 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> > You _can_ track down the interesting stuff in the library. If they had just 
> > stuck to a few arts and done them in detail, you wouldn't have that. 
>  
> Steve should have listed his source material somewhere. 
 
<nod> Really, this should be SOP for any RPG supplement. 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:35:30 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
> Seriously, this was always something that annoyed me about previous 4E 
> products, where they advanced the timeline on their own schedule and assumed 
> that the Champions (or whatever other hero group the author liked best) have 
> already run through all their modules. 
 
Well, maybe, but who pays any attention to the "official" Champions 
Universe timeline anyway? 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 11 Dec 1997 18:36:15 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes: 
 
JD> This is where I have problems with your logic.  (There may be no real 
JD> problem, I'm just not getting it.)  If I have Extra Time on my Energy 
JD> Blast, then, when it activates, I won't have the 1/2 Phase to attack 
JD> with it.  I couldn't use it to hit someone for damage.  Could you 
JD> explain, extending your prior arguments, how I *would*? 
 
You would not.  "Extra Time" is a limitation that makes it take longer than 
a 0-phase action to activate a power.  If you have an extra half-phase 
activation time requirement on your EB, it requires an extra half-phase 
action to activate it.  Once active you may use it per standard combat time 
requirements. 
 
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:39:08 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
> Nope.  The problem is, Energy Blast requires more than a 0-Phase action to 
> activate.  It requires a 0-Phase action AND AN ATTACK ROLL to activate.  You 
> can't use EB without the attack roll, and making the attack roll ends your 
> phase. 
 
You're being overly literal IMO. If an actual _Combat Maneuver_ isn't 
necessarily an attack action (re the example on BBB152), I don't see why 
an Energy Blast has to be. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 11 Dec 1997 18:40:35 -0500 
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>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes: 
 
>> You should read CAPCOM's literature about the game, because they do call 
>> Zangief's and Blanka's styles "Sambo" and "Capoeira", respectively. 
 
VL> Even if these characters know these styles, it doesn't mean every move 
VL> they perform was learned from them. 
 
CAPCOM still calls the styles "Sambo" and "Capoeira" and "Shotokan Karate" 
and "Wushu" and "Kabbadi" and "Special Forces Training".  They may be wrong 
for doing so, but that is what CAPCOM does, so that is what White Wolf did. 
 
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 11 Dec 1997 18:52:26 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes: 
 
VL> PAGE SIXTY-FIVE, PARAGRAPH FOUR, SENTENCE TWO (put your finger on it 
VL> and count, I don't want you to miss it again): "To use an Energy Blast, 
VL> the character states his target and makes an Attack Roll". 
 
Then, like other specific instructions for powers -- such as the use of 
Dispell against an incoming attack -- it is unique to Energy Blast, because 
it appears under the description of the power, not in a general section.  I 
do not have to make an attack roll to use other powers that does not 
specifically require an attack roll -- which is most of them -- if I do not 
attack with those powers. 
 
Now, since you have decided that the Arkelos example is wonky and not to be 
used as canon, I have decided to treat that aberration under Energy Blast 
as an aberration.  It makes use of the so-called "attack powers" more 
consistant with each other and the rest of the powers in the book -- 
specifically being that it is the act of making an attack that is the 
attack action, not the activation of a power. 
 
And this fits with Steve Peterson's broadened definition of attack: 
 
    The definition of "attack" should be broadened to read "any action that 
    ends your Phase." This includes moving more than half your movement, 
    dodging, blocking, aborting to a defensive action, or taking any action 
    that requires more than a half-Phase to perform while doing nothing 
    else. 
 
Activation -- NOT USE -- of a power, being a 0-phase action, does not end 
your action phase.  Using a power as an attack *does* end your action 
phase.  Using a power for something other than an attack does *NOT* end 
your action phase. 
 
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                                    \  
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:57:35 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Crossover Adventures (Re: Going off on a little tangent) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:05 PM 12/11/97 -0800, Rook wrote: 
>>    When I learned that Hero was going to not only start a new universe but 
>> a new game system as well, I was inspired to assemble notes for an 
>> adventure that would allow GMs to go directly from one to the other with a 
>> "logical" explanation.  Entitled "Doomsday," it detailed what happens when 
>> 
> 
>    Hmm...Now there's an idea. Crossover's are a long time annoying staple of 
>comic books. But they 
>might not be so annoying in gaming modules. Perhaps a CU / San Angelo 
crossover 
>adventure 
>could be written. 
>    Once San Angelo comes out, we will effectively have 4 published 
universes to 
>Champions: 
>CU (4th edition) 
>pre-4th edition CU, which had a diferent team as the champions. 
>Strike Force 
>San Angelo 
> 
>And you consider New Millenium to be Champs, that makes 5. 
> 
>With the execption of #2 which I think can't be touched for legal reasons 
>(correct?), all the others 
>could be used in crossovers... 
 
   While I do take the New Champions Universe as within the same flow, I 
consider pre-4th Edition to be the same as 4th Edition.  The universe 
described in the old Champions comics and related materials was, to my mind 
at least, a wholly separate universe that, like you say, can't be touched. 
   OTOH one could always do adaptations of other published superhero 
worlds.  The Alert Force Universe (a fantastic DC Heroes world published on 
the web; it's on my Hero Links Page and on the Circle of Heroes) is one 
good example.  I'd love to gather together Champions stats for the Heroes 
Unlimited characters (though I'd have to buy the books first). 
 
>    Perhaps 'Heroic Adventures #3 could be a series of crossover adventures. 
 
   Naw, I think #3 is supposed to be Fantasy Hero. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:59:27 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:21 PM 12/11/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< Funny... I generally prefer to have the PCs be a mid-level hero group. 
>The X-Men rather than the Avengers, so to speak. >> 
> 
>  Keep in mind, though, that I didn't address their power level, only their 
>status as the city's main heroes. ;) 
 
   In other words, they may be San Angelo's main hero team, but they're 
probably not the premier team in the whole world, right? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:04:18 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:09 PM 12/11/97 -0800, Rook wrote: 
>    I dunno, if a GM made me roll dice to shoot the sky I look at him like he 
>was from Mars... 
>Then pick up my dice, shake them a bit, and throw them at him... :) 
> 
>    Then see if I had a dunce cap on hand. :) 
 
   Unless, of course, it's a comedy campaign.  How would you like to be the 
owner of a character whose main claim to fame was that he once shot into 
the sky, and missed? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:18:07 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Sabotage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:00 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>At 10:22 AM 12/10/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>   What I'm leaning toward is this (to give a simplified version):  The 
>>saboteur decides what he wants to do to the vehicle, and the GM assigns an 
>>appropriate Skill, just like a normal application.  And, of course, there's 
>>a difficulty penalty for what the saboteur is trying to do: 
>> 
>>   Disabling a Device: -1 per ten Active Points being shut off. 
>>   Planting a Device (such as a bomb or remote control): -1 per ten Active 
>>Points being added. 
>>   Weakening a Device (such as Burnout Rolls, Extra Time Limitation, etc.): 
>>-1 per -1/4 Limitation being imposed on a device. 
>> 
>I like the fact that it goes along with the "-1/10 Active Points" from the 
>RSR lim.  I don't know how much the last one should be, tho... maybe -1/10 
>Real Points difference in the change?  ie Tacking a "minor" lim on a larger 
>power is harder than putting it on a minor one.  Weakening the motor 
>(Running or Flight) would probably be harder than weakening (to the same 
>extent) the radio.  (Maybe.  Just a thought.) 
 
   Someone else, in a direct email, made a similar point, and it was in 
fact my first instinct.  As the same person pointed out, though, this would 
be rather difficult for most folks to calculate, especially on the fly. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:20:38 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Sabotage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 06:17 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>Rick Holding wrote: 
>> But perhaps you are missing the greatest act of sabotage.  Taking  
>>control of the vehicle.  Now, that is where the villian has the most fun.   
>>Mechanics, electronics, system ops and a fair bit of time.  The negatives  
>>would depend on the relative level of technology of the vehicle, I 
suppose.   
>>Try considering a normal vehicle as base (what, 20 to 30 points?) and apply  
>>-1 per 10 points above that base.  Countering that would probarly be 
several  
>>people working on it (complemetry rolls) and maybe a decent amount of 
time.   
>>Other modifiers could be added both positive and negative for research time  
>>and effort spent. 
>> 
>Harkening back to "Batman Forever" perhaps?  Yep, the Penguin took control 
>of the Batmobile with ol' Batty still in it. 
 
   That was what made me first think of remote controls -- that, and an 
episode of the old Batman TV show where ol' Batty took control of the 
Batmobile with (I think) the Joker at the wheel.  (I don't remember for 
sure; it may have been the Batcycle he was controlling, or some such.) 
 
>The other thing is... did we ever reach a consensus on how much an 
>"Everyman" Vehicle is worth?  I liked the part about the multiple of your 
>wealth... 
 
   I think what was finally arrived at was 20 points, plus the point value 
of your wealth.  Anyway, that's what I've put in the book. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:23:53 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>	I've talked to Steve Long a little about his products, and he said 
>that the Hero editors were pretty involved in his projects, especially the 
>Ultimate series.  For instance, the Mental Combat maneuvers were 
>Peterson's, not Long's.  Long had his own that were bumped.  (I have a 
>copy of those, BTW, if anyone is interested.  Long said he wouldn't mind 
>them being distributed to the list.) 
> 
I'd like to see them, even if you sent them to me privately.  I haven't 
seen TUM's, but I have the old Champs II book, with some manuevers in it. 
I've been thinking of implementing them in my campaign. 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:38:47 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Computer Questions 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>	Well, this character is from the future.  Only he can access it's 
>data banks, and even only then with voice recognition and a passcode.   
>Otherwise, it's programmed to download all of it's information into  
>a sub routines that locks itself shut.  The computer has certain 
>information that could be harmful to the time stream.  It's programmed 
>with information of things yet to come, but cannot release that information 
>before that time.  If worse comes to worse, it will download it's information 
>as above, or erase the information.  It also has mission data (for future 
>missions, already programmed into it), it's monitored by the group who 
>sent the character back along with the character, who has been  
>'brain edited.'  It's programmed to 'fix' any mess ups in the time 
>stream (i.e. cover the agents tracks). 
> 
ew.  Anyway, putting my distaste for time travel aside, I think that the 
suggestion that someone had (and someone else refuted) of putting this as a 
Focus might help.  It's a personal Focus, and would give lots of KS about 
"past" history... although this might have to be bought as precognition, 
depending on the GM.  Wouldn't the character be monitored moreso than the 
computer?  And how would it 'fix' the timestream?  Didn't you say it wasn't 
AI?  Maybe it leads the character to fixing it, I'm not too sure what 
you're getting at here.  Maybe the Watcher has NCI, and therefore has 
limited control over what the computer tells the PC, which makes him fix 
the timestream? 
 
- Jerry 
 
I'm posting this to the group, because you *will* get a bunch of answers, 
which'll give you more insight than just mine. 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:43:54 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes: 
> 
>JD> This is where I have problems with your logic.  (There may be no real 
>JD> problem, I'm just not getting it.)  If I have Extra Time on my Energy 
>JD> Blast, then, when it activates, I won't have the 1/2 Phase to attack 
>JD> with it.  I couldn't use it to hit someone for damage.  Could you 
>JD> explain, extending your prior arguments, how I *would*? 
> 
>You would not.  "Extra Time" is a limitation that makes it take longer than 
>a 0-phase action to activate a power.  If you have an extra half-phase 
>activation time requirement on your EB, it requires an extra half-phase 
>action to activate it.  Once active you may use it per standard combat time 
>requirements. 
> 
First off, thanks for the response. 
Secondly, you can't take "Extra Time" for just an extra 1/2 Phase.  The 
smallest increment is "Full Phase."  So, it takes a Full Phase to turn this 
Power on, and then I don't have the 1/2 Phase you say I need to target it. 
So...  it makes Energy Blast, Flash, et al useless for attacking? 
How about Dark Seraph in Classic Enemies?  Did they goof on him? 
Not trying to be antagonistic, just questioning your argument. 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:18:34 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: To Steven Brust Readers 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 41 
 
Tokyo Mark wrote: 
>  
> I've been writing up some info for the fantasy world of Steven Brust's 
> Vlad Taltos for a possible future campaign (And because it's one of my 
> favorite worlds). 
>  
> I'm curious to know, how would people write up sorcery from that world? 
> I've been debating VVP v. Multipower.  Since sorcery technically is just 
> drawing on power from the Orb and using it with a skill roll, VVP seems 
> like the best option, but for a fantasy game simulating the effects from 
> the book is very expensive.  Teleports of a couple of hundred miles are 
> not uncommon, even for a less skilled sorcerer.  I'm tempted to resort to 
> house rules. 
>  
> Witchcraft is a little easier, since it has alot of built in limitations 
> (Gestures, incant, extra time, spell components), and is so flexible it 
> almost has to be a VVP. 
>  
> Thoughts or opinions? 
>  
> TokyoMark 
 
-- It may not be as bad as you think.  The teleports were never used with-in  
combat as htus could be considered as non combat teleports only.  This would  
mean lots of non combat multiples with very little in the way of basic  
teleport.  A single floating location gotten by the use of telepathy and a  
couple of extra increases of mass.  The only thing that could hike the price up  
would be useable by others.  I thought of on others but no examples were ever  
shown of somebody else being teleported against their will. 
 
	Most of the other effects were standard attacks with strange special  
effects.  Of course, there was the teleport block (small hardened force wall  
transparent to energy and physical?), the block to stop resurrection and  
resurrection itself.  (Anybody want to restart the bringing back the dead  
debate?) 
 
	The link to the orb was a right of the nobility (2 or 5 point perk) and  
was used as the local clock (absolute time sense).  To use sorcery required  
that the link be there (-1/4 limit) and could be blocked by a special rock or  
if the orb was in the land of the dead.  Oh, yea.  The use of teleport on  
Easteners made them want to barf. 
 
	Witchcraft on the other hand was ritualistic, required components for  
the most part and the use of a familiar to handle some of the more extreme  
energy requirements.  And there was no spur of the moment casting.  Players  
would need to have a pre-prepared list of their "spells" and inventing new  
spells was an experience. 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:22:10 -0800 
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell) 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
-> From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net Thu Dec 11 16:01:19 1997 
->  
-> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
->  
-> >>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes: 
->  
-> VL> PAGE SIXTY-FIVE, PARAGRAPH FOUR, SENTENCE TWO (put your finger on it 
-> VL> and count, I don't want you to miss it again): "To use an Energy Blast, 
-> VL> the character states his target and makes an Attack Roll". 
->  
-> Then, like other specific instructions for powers -- such as the use of 
-> Dispell against an incoming attack -- it is unique to Energy Blast, because 
-> it appears under the description of the power, not in a general section.  I 
-> do not have to make an attack roll to use other powers that does not 
-> specifically require an attack roll -- which is most of them -- if I do not 
-> attack with those powers. 
->  
 
Actually, according to the rules, you do. 
 
HSR, Page 56: "An instant power lasts just long enough for the character using 
the power to make an Attack Roll" 
 
Dispell, Flash, RKA, etc are all instant powers. 
 
Why don't you just say that being able to use these powers without attacking 
is a good house rule? Why do you persist in these lame attempts to find support 
in the rules? 
 
								-Sam 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:09:10 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Sabotage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 56 
 
-- Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
>    Something occurred to me yesterday that should be in TUSV, but isn't in 
> the current manuscript: sabotage.  This happens quite frequently in movies 
> and stuff, and so should have some rules covering it. 
>    My problem is, I'm not sure how it should be handled. 
>    What I'm leaning toward is this (to give a simplified version):  The 
> saboteur decides what he wants to do to the vehicle, and the GM assigns an 
> appropriate Skill, just like a normal application.  And, of course, there's 
> a difficulty penalty for what the saboteur is trying to do: 
>  
>    Disabling a Device: -1 per ten Active Points being shut off. 
>    Planting a Device (such as a bomb or remote control): -1 per ten Active 
> Points being added. 
>    Weakening a Device (such as Burnout Rolls, Extra Time Limitation, etc.): 
> -1 per -1/4 Limitation being imposed on a device. 
>  
>    Does anyone have any feedback or further suggestions?  I haven't 
> dedicated anything to the actual manuscript yet (I'm still putting in stuff 
> based on the recent discussion on locks -- thanks gang!), so the section is 
> still open. 
 
	I wonder if you are trying to go too deep.  Planting a bomb is  
demolitions and concealment.  Having just written that, change of mind.   
Planting the device would apply a negative to the concealment roll.  Extra  
time would balance if possible. 
 
	Weakening a device (brakes, steering, whatever) would probarly be  
mechanics but timing the failure would be the tricky part.  The classic  
scenes in the movies where the brakes fail just as the heroes are going down  
a winding hill is a favorite of screen writers but unless somebody actually  
pushes a button to blow an explosive device, when it happens is in the hands  
of the gods. 
 
	But perhaps you are missing the greatest act of sabotage.  Taking  
control of the vehicle.  Now, that is where the villian has the most fun.   
Mechanics, electronics, system ops and a fair bit of time.  The negatives  
would depend on the relative level of technology of the vehicle, I suppose.   
Try considering a normal vehicle as base (what, 20 to 30 points?) and apply  
-1 per 10 points above that base.  Countering that would probarly be several  
people working on it (complemetry rolls) and maybe a decent amount of time.   
Other modifiers could be added both positive and negative for research time  
and effort spent. 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:19:14 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Computer Questions 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> >   20 | Physical Limitation: Must obey creator's orders 
> >   20 | Physical Limitation: Computer 
> >   20 | Distinctive Features: Computer (Not Conc, Major Reaction) 
> >   10 | DNPC: Creator (As Powerful), 14- 
> > 
> <*GAG*>  man, I'm glad I didn't see this before.  Personally, I wouldn't 
> give *any* of these to a regular computer... *maybe* to an AI, but the 
> first would probably be a Psych. Lim. 
 
 
	Only if the computer could make an EGO roll to disobey.  If it 
were keyed to always obey and couldn't break its programming, then an 
Physical Limitation is in order. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:26:26 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Computer Questions 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:19 PM 12/11/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>> >   20 | Physical Limitation: Must obey creator's orders 
>> >   20 | Physical Limitation: Computer 
>> >   20 | Distinctive Features: Computer (Not Conc, Major Reaction) 
>> >   10 | DNPC: Creator (As Powerful), 14- 
>> > 
>> <*GAG*>  man, I'm glad I didn't see this before.  Personally, I wouldn't 
>> give *any* of these to a regular computer... *maybe* to an AI, but the 
>> first would probably be a Psych. Lim. 
> 
>	Only if the computer could make an EGO roll to disobey.  If it 
>were keyed to always obey and couldn't break its programming, then an 
>Physical Limitation is in order. 
> 
True.  I just don't see (my interpretation of) AIs absolutely not being 
able to... although there *are* the Robot Rules, so I guess it's possible. 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:28:20 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> So, we have a specific case of Energy Blast always reqiring an attack roll. 
> How about RKA, Flash, etc.,? 
 
	Why yes, in the same section that mentions "other attacks" to be 
EBs, Flashes, and whatnots. 
 
> 
> What about the classic schtick of firing one's six-shooter in the air to 
> get everyone's attention?  Is that an attack?  If so, what is the target? 
> What gets hit by this attack. 
 
	What about it?  Yes.  The ceiling (or sky, or sign, or whatever) 
above the firing character.  GMs choice, really, as it is just a random 
shot that the character isn't specifically aiming.  If he had luck or 
unluck I'd make that a factor, otherwise. 
 
> There is no target.  Westerns ignore the fact that the bullet will 
> eventually come back down as fast as it was fired up.  There is no target, 
> there is no DCV, there is no attack roll. 
 
	Target is general.  DCV is unimportant.  Attack roll is waived as 
unimportant.  It's there, there's just no need to actually roll it. 
 
> The dispute is whether or not an Energy Blast and Flash activated as 
> 0-phase actions may be used as a single half-phase attack action.  If they 
 
	OK.  That does seem to be it, doesn't it.  I say no, not without a 
special modifier, anyway. 
 
> may with a limitation then they should without that limitation, because a 
> limitation is *supposed* to restrict the usefulness of a power. 
 
 
	And as Vox and I keep pointing out, it does.  You are accepting 
less raw power for some variety, and keeping a lot of points tied down for 
a small disadvantage. 
 
	But that is the debate.  As everything in the rules is considered 
to be GM-modifiable, it is possible to make changes.  It's pretty standard 
that certain advantages and lims are worth different amounts in different 
campaigns. 
 
	I could see the logic in your argument that the gain in width 
makes up for the loss in depth.  OK then.  Go with linked as a +-0 
modifier.  I could (and may) go with that in my next campaign, keeping the 
current linked only for non-combat powers.  Maybe. 
 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:38:32 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> I think he was talking current rosters...  yes, the Silver Surfer has 
> worked with the Avengers.  Thor is a good example, but I'm still not sure. 
> You counting Charles Xavier, Cable, Jean Grey, and X-Man (Nate Grey) for 
> the X's?  Most of them touch on cosmic... although not literally so. 
 
	True.  But only Jean regularly runs around with the X-Men combat 
group. 
 
> And Iron Man is back.  Thor was gone, too, btw. 
 
	Hmmm.  Well, I think Iron Man could take out the Xs all on his 
lonesome.  He's just got some incredible armor.  About the best chance I 
see for the X-Men is Gambit somehow getting his hands on the armor.  Then 
it's Bye-Bye. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:47:23 EST 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< I'd love to see it.  (A word of advice, though: email it directly to 
those who express interest, rather than to the list.) >> 
 
  We'll likely just post it to the web page and let those interested download 
it from there. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:49:00 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
> First off, thanks for the response. 
> Secondly, you can't take "Extra Time" for just an extra 1/2 Phase.  The 
> smallest increment is "Full Phase."  So, it takes a Full Phase to turn this 
> Power on, and then I don't have the 1/2 Phase you say I need to target it. 
> So...  it makes Energy Blast, Flash, et al useless for attacking? 
> How about Dark Seraph in Classic Enemies?  Did they goof on him? 
> Not trying to be antagonistic, just questioning your argument. 
 
 
	Actually, it's pretty simple, but Rat seems to miss it. 
 
	Normally, an EB (or any attack power) takes a 1/2 phase action to 
use.  The full phase extra time amount means it takes a whole phase to 
use. 
 
	Got it. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:52:27 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>> I think he was talking current rosters...  yes, the Silver Surfer has 
>> worked with the Avengers.  Thor is a good example, but I'm still not sure. 
>> You counting Charles Xavier, Cable, Jean Grey, and X-Man (Nate Grey) for 
>> the X's?  Most of them touch on cosmic... although not literally so. 
> 
>	True.  But only Jean regularly runs around with the X-Men combat 
>group. 
> 
I thought there were two combat groups, Blue and Gold, one for each of the 
two books (Uncanny and X-Men)? 
 
>> And Iron Man is back.  Thor was gone, too, btw. 
> 
>	Hmmm.  Well, I think Iron Man could take out the Xs all on his 
>lonesome.  He's just got some incredible armor.  About the best chance I 
>see for the X-Men is Gambit somehow getting his hands on the armor.  Then 
>it's Bye-Bye. 
> 
Yeah, that *would* be ugly.  Then again, I have the first issue of the new 
Iron Man (by Busiek, came out yesterday).  He has new armor (again!) and 
takes on 
 
 
SPOILERS! 
 
 
a group of five semi-powered armor mercs.  He has some serious! problems, 
mostly because of their superb teamwork.  Now, I'm not saying the Xes are 
this good, but they do get the bonuses for training together.  Of course, 
it would all depend on who was writing the book (running the game?).  : ) 
 
- Jerry 
 
Man, I thought I turned comic geek mode *off*...  : D 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:53:40 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
> On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>  
> > > You _can_ track down the interesting stuff in the library. If they had just 
> > > stuck to a few arts and done them in detail, you wouldn't have that. 
> >  
> > Steve should have listed his source material somewhere. 
>  
> <nod> Really, this should be SOP for any RPG supplement. 
 
Going back to this note, my kazei Five book is *loaded* with comments like 
"excellent examples of the anime cyborg are, Briarieos (Appleseed), 
Kiddy Phenil (Silent Mobius) and Alita (Battle Angel)..."  Thus, I tell 
the reader exactly who and what I am thinking of when I bring up a topic.   
 
I also made sure to list every little thing that inspired me in the 
Biblography. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:55:55 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> >valid construction and it does have the advantages I listed -- ie, more 
> 
> By "it's", do you mean the mini-computer approach or the full-blown computer 
> bought through focus? 
 
	Both.  Quite valid, but a waste of points. 
 
> >cases.  Chalk it up as missing the place in the BBB where Computers are 
> >said to be purchased as followers.  Quick, find it!  I never knew where it 
> >was 'till someone here pointed it out. 
 
	You didn't answer my challenge.  (I don't remember myself, BTW) 
 
> IMO, BTW, a computer without programs should require a controller roll. 
> It's like going up to a DOS computer with no preinstalled applications 
> and trying to word-process on it from scratch.  Get your hex calculator 
> ready ... 
 
	Heh.  Actually, I'm making Computer Familiarity an offshoot of the 
Vehicle Familiarity.  It fits.  Computer Ops is operating basic programs 
and OSes, etc.  Computer Programming is for programming the things. 
 
	And to use any functions of a computer bought as a seperate entity 
during a combat or stressed situation will require rolls in my campaign. 
Spend the points on skills with foci, and you don't need an ops roll. 
 
> I know, and Sean Fannon made a point that anything anybody didn't like about 
> -The MUTANT File- was only in it because "they" twisted his arm. It's a 
> little too pat of a response, and it's also a little hard to swallow the 
 
	Uh-huh.  Right.  I can maybe see the "Advanced Mutant" concept 
being pushed, the rest is probably his.  I like the product, myself. 
 
> concept of "them" pushing material on the poor authors, since the best 
> suspect for "them" (Steve Peterson) moves heaven and earth to keep from 
> making absolutist statements on the game system. 
 
 
	True.  But I've seen Long's original Mental Combat maneuvers. 
This is a definate editorial change.  I'm taking requests for them now.  I 
can also see the Mind Scan change being an editorial decision as it is 
shift in the rules.  I'll look at some other things, but that's about all 
off the top of my head. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:01:08 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:39 PM 12/11/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
> 
>> Nope.  The problem is, Energy Blast requires more than a 0-Phase action to 
>> activate.  It requires a 0-Phase action AND AN ATTACK ROLL to activate. 
You 
>> can't use EB without the attack roll, and making the attack roll ends your 
>> phase. 
> 
>You're being overly literal IMO. If an actual _Combat Maneuver_ isn't 
>necessarily an attack action (re the example on BBB152), I don't see why 
>an Energy Blast has to be. 
> 
OK, pulling out the BBB again was a pain, but... 
Were you talking about Brace?  I can't tell from your example.  And that's 
really an exception, not the rule. 
 
- Jerry 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
From: "Michael Nunn" <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Organization:  Rising Force Publications 
Date:          Fri, 12 Dec 1997 04:01:27 +0000 
Subject:       Re: Cardboard Heroes 
Reply-to: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> A couple of issues back we did a sheet of blank cardboard heros, I 
> used the template drawings we had been running and made a big sheet of 
> them, so you could color in your PC's costume. 
 
 
	Where do I get this back issue? 
 
Tim, 
 
>From me.    
 
Michael Nunn 
PO Box 986 
Munfordville, KY 42765 
 
Issues cost $2.00 each ,  Actually the issues are about .40 cents the  
rest is postage and handleing. 
 
I only have isue 10 and up. 
 
Michael 
 
PS. check out our web site for more info. 
 
 
 
"Herozine" Rising Force Publications "SUPER" RPG 'zine, 
check out our web site at:    
http://users.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:03:47 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>> First off, thanks for the response. 
>> Secondly, you can't take "Extra Time" for just an extra 1/2 Phase.  The 
>> smallest increment is "Full Phase."  So, it takes a Full Phase to turn this 
>> Power on, and then I don't have the 1/2 Phase you say I need to target it. 
>> So...  it makes Energy Blast, Flash, et al useless for attacking? 
>> How about Dark Seraph in Classic Enemies?  Did they goof on him? 
>> Not trying to be antagonistic, just questioning your argument. 
> 
> 
>	Actually, it's pretty simple, but Rat seems to miss it. 
> 
>	Normally, an EB (or any attack power) takes a 1/2 phase action to 
>use.  The full phase extra time amount means it takes a whole phase to 
>use. 
> 
>	Got it. 
> 
Oh, I understand, and that's how *I* play it...  but, if his assertion is 
correct (in the other part of the argument), then no one in his games can 
have Extra Time on an attack power.  (I know, I know, there's no such thing 
as an "attack power"... lol) 
Thanks, tho.  : ) 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:24:30 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Cardboard Heroes 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>My friend and I do custom character markers for our whole squad. I could 
>assemble them and have them available for download if anyone would find 
>that helpful. You'd have to have some way to print them out in color, 
>though, so I don't know if it would actually be worthwhile or not... 
> 
>Jeff 
 
Actually, I can easily print them in color.  Provided they are the right  
size when printed up I'd gladly use them.  Anything and everything you got.   
If you are intersted in some of my players' characters I could tell you.   
Heck, I wouldn't even mind the