Week Ending December 20, 1997

From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Villian groups 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:44:55 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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>  
> can anyone out there spell 'gestalt'?  
> 
	Hmm. 
There's one for the 'fifth edition'. A 'Combine' Power. 
Two or more people with this power can combine into a greater whole. 
 
Unless it's better just doing in reverse with multiform and duplication... 
  
 
X-Sender: wbandsis@mail.westco.net 
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:45:55 -0500 
From: "C. Badger" <wbandsis@westco.net> 
Subject: Re: Crossover Adventures 
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At 09:34 12/13/97 -0500, Jamie Rosen wrote: 
>>  I think that a book of crossover adventure with *several* universes would be 
>>neat. CU, NMU, and a few others I could think of would be cool. Maybe that' an 
>>idea -- a book of several such adventures, with conversions for each 
>>applicable gaming system. I don't see that the licensing would be too 
>>difficult (given our past success with licensing). 
>> 
>>  So let me ask you, what universes would *you* folks like to see in such a 
>>product? Mind you, this would be a one-time product, not an ongoing series... 
> 
>Heck, let's go crazy here: 
> 
>Marvel (pref. the MU as it was a few  years back, not now) 
>DC 
>Amalgam? 
>SA 
>Champs. 
>Maybe Dark Horse' Comics Greatest World 
>Marvel's New Universe (*I* liked it) 
 
Also Tangent. 
 
Another would be the one that First Comics comic Grimjack. Had where the 
city was called Cynosure or something close to it. It was supposed to be the 
crossroads of the multiverse..... 
----- 
C. Badger 
 
My Feet hurt and I've forgotten how to dance. 
			Londo 
			Babylon 5 
 
 
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:47:06 EST 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
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In a message dated 97-12-13 19:15:00 EST, you write: 
 
<< GS> "To use an Energy Blast, the character states his target and makes an 
 GS> Attack Roll." (HSR p.65) 
  
 So, we have a specific case of Energy Blast always reqiring an attack roll. 
 How about RKA, Flash, etc.,? 
  
 What about the classic schtick of firing one's six-shooter in the air to 
 get everyone's attention?  Is that an attack?  If so, what is the target? 
 What gets hit by this attack. 
  
 There is no target.  Westerns ignore the fact that the bullet will 
 eventually come back down as fast as it was fired up.  There is no target, 
 there is no DCV, there is no attack roll. 
  
 GS> "An Instant Power lasts just long enough for the character using the 
 GS> power to make an Attack Roll." (HSR p.52) 
  
 I do not dispute this, nor does it contradict me when I reiterate the BBB 
 that activation of a power is a 0-phase action.  Use of a power or powers 
 to make an attack is a half-phase attack action -- technically it is the 
 act of making the attack, not the use of the power, that constitutes the 
 attack action.  You activate the Energy Blast as a 0-phase action, and use 
 it in an attack as a half-phase action.  The EB ceases to exist at the end 
 of the attack action.  Standard Champions combat timing. 
  
 The dispute is whether or not an Energy Blast and Flash activated as 
 0-phase actions may be used as a single half-phase attack action.  If they 
 may with a limitation then they should without that limitation, because a 
 limitation is *supposed* to restrict the usefulness of a power. 
  >> 
 
The Limitation comes from the fact that you can't use the Limited Linked Power 
by itself... in fact, you have no control over that one Power anymore... it's 
just along for the ride.  That is worth the price of the Limitation simply 
because there will be times that you would wish to use *only* the Limited 
Power by itself, and not the Power it is Linked to, but you can't.  In the 
example of the EB and a Linked Flash, there would be many times you would only 
wish to blind an opponent, not damage him/her also with the EB.  The Linked 
Limitation has therefore put you at a disadvantage.  Now, GMs must closely 
monitor characters with the Linked Disad, so they don't simply buy another 
Flash.  If that's the case, then the Linked Flash has lost it's Limitation 
value, and deserves no points. 
 
'Lynx 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
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>>>>> "AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes: 
 
AJ> Actually, it does; its just that the target of an aid ordinarily 
AJ> _wants_ to be hit, and thus pending extreme circumstances the attack 
AJ> roll can be assumed to be successful. 
 
An attack roll is part of the process of making an attack.  If you do not 
roll it, you have not made an attack. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge 
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
>> Right there we have a contradiction between the desired effect -- being 
>> unhittable -- and the game mechanics. 
 
TRG> 	Not a valid agument, Rat. 
 
Bullshit, it is an argument based entirely on special effects. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Extra Time on a Triggered Power 
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>>>>> "g" == ghoyle1 <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> writes: 
 
g> Is anybody else as bugged by this as I am? I don't think that the  
g> Extra Time should be worth the full limitation in these  
g> circumstances.  How do you handle injectible drugs in your campaigns? 
 
Remember: a limitation that does not limit the character is worth no bonus. 
 
Also remember: that Extra Time limitation means that she cannot prepare her 
formula during combat, so she will have an extremely limited supply. 
Personally, I would use Charges instead of Extra Time. 
 
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X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net 
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:21:53 -0800 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Sidebars 
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personally I dont like sidebars, they are annoying tricks, in my opinion, 
put what you need in the text... I just think you need lots of art in your 
books, preferably by me! LOL 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:23:38 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Extra Time on a Triggered Power 
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>>One of the characters in my campaign is using an INT Drain which  
>>takes 5 minutes to prepare, but it is also built with a Trigger, so  
>>that it can be delivered in combat; essentially, she has to inject  
>>a potion into someone for the drug to take effect. 
>> 
>Wouldn't this be illegal?  She has prepared an attack, and she can't use 
>another attack without deep-sixing the preparations, right?  Or does 
>Trigger bypass this?  (It very well may.) 
 
It would. Though this method should be bought as a Delayed Effect, not a 
Trigger, if you're going to use it in combat. Trigger should be a 
victim-activated thing. 
> 
>>Is anybody else as bugged by this as I am? I don't think that the  
>>Extra Time should be worth the full limitation in these  
>>circumstances.  How do you handle injectible drugs in your campaigns? 
 
You can't go pro-rating limitations based on the other limitations or 
advantages involved. Why not? Well, for one thing, the more limitations you 
pile on a power, the less point savings is garnered from each limitation. 
For example, on a 60 AP power, a -1/2 limitation gives you a 20 point 
savings. But TWO -1/2 limitations only give a 15 point limitation each. If 
the two limitations are not 'inherently the same thing', you shouldn't lower 
the value of them. 
 
What do I mean by 'Inherently the same thing'? Well, take for example the 
following two limitations, costed as if they were in two different powers 
(note that the limitations given are IMHO): 
 
Only in Antarctica (-1, unless you do lots of adventuring in Antarctica) 
Only in Temperatures below 5 degrees Centigrade (-3/4) 
 
Now, considering that most of the time, most of Antarctica is at or below 5 
degrees C, The second limitation isn't nearly worth as much when the two are 
combined (i.e. if you're in Antarctica, you can pretty much guarantee 
satisfying the other). If you did combine the two limitations in a single 
power, I'd cost it out like this: 
 
Only in Antarctica (-1) 
Only in Temps below 5 degrees C (-1/4) 
 
BUT, this sort of reasoning doesn't apply to most limitations. Extra Time is 
not 'worth less' when applied to a Triggered power, nor is 'Requires a 
Pentagram' on an Extra Time power. As long as the conditions of each 
limitation can be considered to be separate from the other lims and 
advantages, there's no reason to change their values. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:23:42 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: SPD Adjustment, Shapeshift gripes 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>> > Arg. Am I the only one who thinks SPD 'only for X' should be outlawed in 
>> > the 5th edition? 
 
>> Nope.  I don't care for it either. 
 
>	Heck, I'd like to see a discussion on SPD pointing out the major 
>problems and headaches with adjustment powers affecting SPD. 
 
Indeed. Personally, I don't allow them, after seeing what my SPD draining 
hero could do with them. Ick. They're just so 'messy' and require extra 
'figure-outing' time that it's not worth having them - Champs combat takes 
enough time as it is without people going around making lots of SPD changes. 
I even prefer Multiform characters to construct 'easy' SPD arrangements, 
like 3/6 or 2/4, or do their changing on Phase 12 (but at least you can 
pre-calculate where multiform/OIHID characters are involved). Heck, I 
typically prefer Shapeshift/OIHID constructs to Multiform anyways... 
 
Speaking of Shapeshift, should a 5th edition rear its head, I'd like to see 
the matter addressed of a _limited_, defined number of forms. For example, 
as it stands you get 1 form for 10 points, a 'bunch' of forms for 20 points, 
and 'any' form for 30 points. What if I only want 2 forms? (though I'd 
suggest that it go: 10 points for the first form, +2 points per additional 
form up to 4 additional forms, and after that you just blow the wad and buy 
the 20 point level.) 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:07:03 +0000 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: KARZA DRONES 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
John and Ron Prins wrote: 
>  
> >KARZA'S DRONE PEOPLE 
> > 
> >   18  STR                 DF: Pretty/Handsome, but slack 
> >   11  DEX                 DF: Serial Number Tattoos 
> >   11  CON                 DF: Human, unless examined at Genetic Level 
>  
> <rant mode: ON> 
>  
> Excuse me, but how could this be in any way _worth_ points in Champions? I 
> mean, if there's only _one_, very specific, not-likely-to-be-used method of 
> discerning that they're 'not human', how is this a 'distinctive feature'? 
> Sure, it's an interesting little biological quirk, but it's about a 
> distinctive a feature as DF: Diabetic or DF: Sterile. It's not even worth a 
> piddling 5 points, IMHO. 
>  
> <rant mode: OFF> 
 
Good rant.  I'd like to add my own observation. 
Egyptoid: Please put your costs down for disads and the like. I'm curious what 
you consider to 
be the fair costs. 
 
>  
> >   +2 SPEED, Only for Job related actions or to fire weapon. 
>  
> Arg. Am I the only one who thinks SPD 'only for X' should be outlawed in the 
> 5th edition? 
 
Maybe not outlawed, but I hate the casual use of it. 
 
>  
> >   Ultravision 
>  
> You mean Ultraviolet Vision? 
 
Or how about Ultra-violent vision? 
 
-Mark 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:16:34 +0000 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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GoldRushG wrote: 
>  
> << You can't use EB without the attack roll, and making the attack roll ends 
> your 
> phase.>> 
>  
>   What about a warning shot? ;) 
>  
>   Mark @ GRG 
 
As a house rule, I'd allow the warning shot to not take anytime, but the End 
cost or charge would 
be spent. There are times when following the letter of the rules can be a 
pain. 
 
-Mark 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:39:57 +1000 
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
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At 04:37 AM 12/13/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote: 
>> And a request:  a full-figure 'posed shot' of the main heroes/villians/npcs.  I 
>> don't know about anyone else, but I like to scan in the pictures, color them and 
>> print them out.  Then, when it comes time for the PCs to encounter them, I can 
>> SHOW them what the person they're seeing looks like. It's alot easier, and more 
>> fun for the players than just doing the standard 'this one is a woman with 
>> blonde hair in a skimpy red costume'. 
>>  
>	One cool thing Hero/ICE did once was with "Zodiac Conspiracy". On a page 
>with no stats or anything were pics of the NPC's. This way I could simply 
>show that page without some keen player noting the *2 Vuln to Ice Cream in the 
>disads section... 
> 
 
 
yes! the zodiac pages rules. . .i even meade them into a poster *g*  
 
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:28:38 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
>  
> > This doesn't work smoothly. You end up with a finite amount of damage 
> > capacity, you have to pay a fortune to ignore STUN and BODY from both 
> > energy and physical attacks, and you have to pay a fortune or for some 
> > reason the ghost can't pass through high DEF materials. And then you have 
> > to set things up so that you can't attack while you're tunneling, unless 
> > somebody else is tunneling just like you, etc. Whatever its flaws, 
> > Desolidification is necessary as a power. 
>  
> 	True.  I think Affects Desol needs to go, however. 
>  
 
I agree. Rather than a generic +1/2 Advantage that for some reason affects 
any desolid character, regardless of special effect, I'd have a bunch of 
+1/4 Advantages like Affects Ghosts/Spirits, Affects Dimensional Shifted, 
Affects Temporally Displaced, etc. Actually, I think I'd still call it one 
advantage, but require SFX to be specified in order to determine 
applicability. 
 
I might also do something similar for Hardened. Why should titanium steel 
walls stop a dimension walking teleporter?  
 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:16:21 +1000 
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Champions5th Edition- ha 
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At 05:51 AM 12/13/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   Opal has a fix for Hand Attack which most of the folks on the list like. 
> (I know Bill and I both do, but he and I tend to agree on things anyway.) 
>   Hey Opal!  Do you mind posting that again, for Mark?   :-] 
 
 
ummm, this isn't that 'clearly seperate from the body' thang is it. . .? 
Okay. . . it's time for everyone to post their thingies on ha. . . . . 
 
I actually worked out a 5 pt per d6 idea , where the advantage of ha 
is that str dice added *automatically* get the benifits of 
advantages (and lmitations) placed on the ha power , BUT only 
like hka- limited to one dice of str damage per dice of ha damage 
. . . 
 
From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com> 
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 23:40:10 EST 
Subject: Re: Yet Another Power Problem... 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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In a message dated 97-12-13 21:54:25 EST, lizard wrote:  
 
> Basically, I'm looking for a mechanic that gives a third party a one- 
>  shot or charge-shot use of a power, with the actual mechanic for  
>  creating that power as a seperate thing. That is, I need to gesture,  
>  incant, and hold some teeth to give the 'bite' power to a bag, but  
>  the bag doesn't need to gesture, incant, etc, to use it -- and the  
>  'power' goes away under a set of conditions. Further, I don't think  
>  such a temporary usage should require permenant expenditure of  
>  character points with each use of the power-granting-power.  
>   
>  It looks like some kind of 'usable by others' is being called for  
>  here, with one 'power' to grant the other power. Isn't there  
>  something in Almanac I about this? 
 
Trigger. BBB p 97. The example they give there is of a magical trap: An area- 
effect Entangle on a room in a wizard's tower. "If a visible thief tries to 
enter the room, then the Entangle will be set off, likely trapping him until 
Arkelos [the wizard] returns." 
 
Erol K. Bayburt 
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:05:08 +1000 
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
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At 03:17 PM 12/13/97 -0500, GoldRushG wrote: 
>  One other note. Keep in mind that, primarily because of financial 
>considerations, we are looking at printing the Hero System rules book 
>separately, with Champions being a genre book. Champions would have the super 
>power rules in there, as well as a *much* better treatment of the genre, 
>examples, no "official universe" inside (rather examples and notes on creating 
>several different types, etc., but the Hero System "core" rules would be in 
>the Hero System rules book. 
> 
 
um. . there are no 'super hero' rules. there's just heroic/superheroic characters.  
 
 
>  I realize this may not be a popular decision, and I'm willing to hear well 
>reasoned discussion for or against the idea. But please consider that 
>reprinting the BBB as it is now would cost *us* a lot of money, and the retail 
>price would likely be $40 or more (and that for a softcover with no 
>software!). We want folks to buy it, and the only way to keep the prices 
>reasonable is to limit some of the content. This seems the most logical way to 
>do that. 
> 
 
genre books are fine, but *please do not* split up the rules in them. . . 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:05:57 EST 
Subject: Re: Champions  5th Edition 
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<< Small change that I've always liked: allowing Acrobatics to be used  
as complementary to Breakfall.  Makes Acrobatics much more useful.>> 
 
  Definitely! Complimentary Skills are always a good thing and if logical 
should always be allowed by the GM, IMO. One of the new skills I've added to 
Law & Order is "KS: Patrol Area" (not a "new" skill, really), which is a 
Complimentary Skill to Combat Driving during pursuits (i.e., car chases). It 
makes sense; knowing your area well makes it easier to avoid those potholes, 
know when hairpin turns are coming up, etc. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:06:00 EST 
Subject: PART 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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<< Well, that's nice. Now what the heck is "PART"?:)>> 
 
  PART stands for the Paranormal Alert Response Team, San Angelo PD's 
specialized team of officers who respond to incidents involving supers. They 
are primarily made up of SWAT and ex-SWAT members, although they are sorely 
out-classed in the core book. In the PART Sourcebook, we're planning to give 
them a federal "DOJ grant," and they'll be using those funds to buy newer, 
better armor, gadgets, weapons, vehicles, etc. 
 
  The supplement will also include some new villains (from the "PART case 
files"), a few new skills, some tips on playing and GMing PART adventures, 
creating PART PCs (in case some folks go for that sort of thing), PART tactics 
(just how *do* they capture and transport those supervillains?), some PART- 
based adventures, NPC write-ups of PART personnel, and so on. 
 
  We'll be uploading an illo of a standard PART member when we update the web 
pages. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:06:02 EST 
Subject: Kurt's comments 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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<< well, keep in mind the comments made in the UNDERGROUND game. . .>> 
 
  And what would those be? 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:06:05 EST 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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<< Hmmm, any plans to go overseas? Australia, maybe? *g* I expect it'd  
be quite a stretch. .. . .>> 
 
  Not much of a stretch at all. If an Australian distributor would pout in an 
order for products, we'd fill it. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:06:08 EST 
Subject: Re: Yet Another Power Problem... 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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<< Thief reaches into bag, gets hand chomped (call it a 1d6 HKA). How to do 
this as a spell? >> 
 
  1d6 HKA, Indirect, Persistent, Trigger? 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:06:12 EST 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< The other comment is "No more hard covers"  In my group we have 5 copies of 
the BBB all 5 have fallen apart. >> 
 
  That was the fault f the printer. The reprinting of the BBB in "Champions 
Deluxe" has a much higher quality stitch, "textbook"-style binding. Mine has 
not fallen apart. Actually, none of the 1,000 or so copies I have have fallen 
apart. <LOL> No complaints from distributors or customers, either. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:06:17 EST 
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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<< Yup.  If the quality was high enough. >> 
 
  You're not getting off the hook that easy, you can-of-worms-opener, you! :D 
 
  Just how do you define "high enough" quality? 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:09:30 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Villian groups 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
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At 03:26 PM 12/13/97 -0600, John Stefanski wrote: 
>Humor me on this one! 
> 
>I like to construct scenarios with touches of current events and or people  
>twisted enough to fit into a four color genre. Has anyone put together a  
>villain group based on the Spice Girls? You have five different  
>personalities that could be used to create five different villains banded  
>together to promote "Girl Power." 
> 
 
can anyone out there spell 'gestalt'?  
 
Or as they put it on australian radio. ..  
 
"I AM EVIL SPICE!" 
 
*lol* 
 
 
> 
 
From: "Sean Pavlish" <pavlish@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:10:08 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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>  Hmm.. a character that uses Desolidification, with Totally Invisible power 
>effects... with the special effect of "awesome Zen-like martial arts ability 
>to avoid blows" or some such (a la Remo Williams, or legendary ninja 
>abilities, etc). Too wild? Too GROSS? 
> 
>  Mark @ GRG 
 
 
A friend of mine ran a campaign with an NPC with that exact power.  The guys 
that played definately had a very difficult time with it in the run and the GM 
had a difficult time dodging things after...(when they figured it out)   :) 
 
Sean 
 
From: "Sean Pavlish" <pavlish@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:10:08 -0500 
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>  Hmm.. a character that uses Desolidification, with Totally Invisible power 
>effects... with the special effect of "awesome Zen-like martial arts ability 
>to avoid blows" or some such (a la Remo Williams, or legendary ninja 
>abilities, etc). Too wild? Too GROSS? 
> 
>  Mark @ GRG 
 
 
A friend of mine ran a campaign with an NPC with that exact power.  The guys 
that played definately had a very difficult time with it in the run and the GM 
had a difficult time dodging things after...(when they figured it out)   :) 
 
Sean 
 
From: "Sean Pavlish" <pavlish@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:17:36 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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>The other comment is "No more hard covers"  In my group we have 5 copies of 
>the BBB all 5 have fallen apart. 
> 
>Juat a general question to the list, did that happen to everyone? 
> 
 
 
Right down the middle.  The spines of the books from various RPG companies 
just don't seem to hack it anymore...  What do they do... Look for the 
cheapest glue out there on the market? 
 
Sean 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:18:45 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << Yup.  If the quality was high enough. >> 
>  
>   You're not getting off the hook that easy, you can-of-worms-opener, you! :D 
>  
>   Just how do you define "high enough" quality? 
 
The cardboard heroes painted by Jeff Dee and Denis Loubet were high 
quality illos.  The SJ Games dragon counters were okay.  The Japan set 
werte pretty good.  The Alien Enemies set didn't look so hot.  The 
Shadowrun figurtes that came with the GM screen are a mixed bag.  Some 
look really cool and some look junky.  There are also a bit samll, making 
it hard to see what the figure is (tthey are also a bit muddy). 
The Streetfighter counters are all pretty well done, except they don't 
have a front and a back, just two fronts.  It's nice to have a front and 
back view of everything. 
 
(I have (or had) all the SJG cardboard heoes in 25mm.  I also have 
Shadowrun and Streetfighter counters as well as the old Autoduel Champions 
counters.  Love the things!) 
 
It would also be nice to see more than just supers.  SJG was talking about 
SF counters and all that before stopping production. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:22:43 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: PART 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << Well, that's nice. Now what the heck is "PART"?:)>> 
>  
>   PART stands for the Paranormal Alert Response Team,  
 
Hahaha...  way back from 1990-95, when I ran my "Justice Alliance" game, 
we had PaCT.  The "Paranormal Containment Team".   
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:28:11 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
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At 12:06 AM 12/14/97 -0500, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< Hmmm, any plans to go overseas? Australia, maybe? *g* I expect it'd  
>be quite a stretch. .. . .>> 
> 
>  Not much of a stretch at all. If an Australian distributor would pout in an 
>order for products, we'd fill it. 
> 
>  Mark @ GRG 
> 
 
 
hmm, i was thinkin more along the lines of an airdrop? *lol* 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:31:10 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Kurt's comments 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:06 AM 12/14/97 -0500, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< well, keep in mind the comments made in the UNDERGROUND game. . .>> 
> 
>  And what would those be? 
> 
>  Mark @ GRG 
> 
 
Well, basically i'd ask us all to recognise the difference  
between genuine heros who can make a difference(even in a  
gritty setting) and joke-heros who don't really stand a  
chance. . . ..  
 
From: "Sean Pavlish" <pavlish@erols.com> 
Cc: <champ-l@omg.org> 
Subject: Re: It's Not Easy Being Green 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:36:49 -0500 
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>I think Bob's been working too hard on TUSV lately. 
> 
 
 
I'll second that...  Bob, take a day off... Take two...  
 
LOL 
 
Sean 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:51:58 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: It's Not Easy Being Green 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:00 AM 12/13/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
Well, he wrote a bunch of stuff about Greenies. 
 
I encourage you, sir, to look at the thread entitled "Spiderman and the 
color green" on the rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe newsgroup.  If anyone's 
interested, that is... 
 
- Jerry 
 
Comic geek extraordinaire, I suppose... 
 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: Re: Velocity and Damage 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 01:09:54 -0500 
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> >knowledgeable who can criticize or correct this approach.  For 
example, 
> >applying this method to falling damage doesn't come close to 
producing the 
> >recommended 30d6 damage for a terminal velocity skydive sans 
parachute, so 
> >some modifications (i.e. kludges) would be in order for the true 
realism 
> >freaks. 
>  
> IMO, the 30d6 number is a wee bit overrated compared to the rest of 
the 
> system. 30 BODY is enough to distintegrate a normal; given a 
normal's 
> survivability in just about every other aspect of the system, I'd 
argue 
> that a consistent velocity damage rule which had terminal velocity 
doing 
> less damage was not necessarily broken.  
>  
> Geoff Speare 
> 
 
 
Here's my take on falling damage.  The velocity of a falling body is 
equal to the initial velocity, plus acceleration due to gravity 
(about 10 m/sec in Earth's gravity well) multiplied by the time of 
fall.  Assuming the initial velocity for a skydive is zero, the 
simple formula is v = g * t.  The distance fallen, in simple form, is 
equal to one-half acceleration multiplied by time squared, or d = 0.5 
* g * t^2. 
 
Terminal Velocity for a falling human typically ranges from 50 m/sec 
to 70 m/sec for a skydive, depending on the height of the fall and 
the way the body falls.  Here are some sample numbers for the time of 
fall, distance fallen, velocity of body, kinetic energy of 100 kg 
body falling at a given velocity, and damage dice.  I assume air 
resistance is negligible up until the time terminal velocity is 
reached, at which point the body no longer accelerates and falls with 
constant velocity.  Actually, air resistance increases the time it 
takes to reach terminal velocity.  A real skydiver falls longer and 
farther before reaching terminal velocity.  
 
 
  Time     Distance   Velocity   Kinetic Energy   Damage Dice 
(seconds)  (meters)    (m/sec)      (joules) 
 
   .5          1          5            1,200          5d6 
  1.0          5         10            5,000         7d6 
  1.5         10         15           10,000          9d6 
  2.0         20         20           20,000         10d6 
  2.5         30         25           30,000         10d6 
  3.0         45         30           45,000         11d6 
  3.5         60         35           60,000          11d6 
  4.0         80         40           75,000         12d6 
  4.5        100         45          100,000         12d6 
  5.0        125         50          120,000         12d6 
  6.0        180         60          180,000         13d6 
  7.0        250         70          240,000         13d6 
 
 
The damage doesn't seem great enough for a high fall.  Even a healthy 
normal stands a fair chance of walking away, something very rare in 
the real world.  The GM could rule that certain forms of 
weapon-stopping armor don't help much in a high fall, while the 
impressive PD of a professional boxer also isn't meant to suck up the 
damage of a skydive.  Aside from arguments with the players, it still 
suffers the fault of not going far enough to make high falls deadly. 
 
An alternate tack is not to treat the damage as general, but to use 
the Hit Location table and treat the fall as specific damage to 
particular body areas, dividing the damage energy among two or three 
or four body areas.  Instead of suffering 100,000 joules or 12d6 
general damage, the skydiver suffers 50,000 joules or 11d6 damage to 
two separate locations, or even 25,000 joules or 10d6 damage to four 
separate areas, and apply the Impairing and Disabling rules.  Yes, 
the fallen hero survives, but now he has two shattered legs, broken 
ribs with internal bleeding, and a left arm so twisted in would make 
Gumby gag. 
 
Any other suggested solutions? 
 
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
 
  
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:22:23 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions  5th Editi 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:25 AM 12/14/97 -0800, Opal wrote: 
>b> Opal has a fix for Hand Attack which most of the folks on the list  
>b> like. (I know Bill and I both do, but he and I tend to agree on things  
>b> anyway.)  
>  
>Now if Rat and Vox and Tim Gilberg all liked it... (no wait, thats  
>the coming Apocolypse!)  
 
Don't duck and cover just yet. :^| To begin with, the only thing really 
wrong with the original HA isn't really something wrong with HA: its price. 
HA costs 3 pts. because 1d6 worth of STR cost 5 points.  One is left with 
either the option of raising STR's cost, or living with HA. 
 
The trouble is, HA is NOT the normal-damage equivalent of HKA. There's no 
need for such a power (a normal damage power that lets you add STR), because 
the paradigm shifts for normal damage -- STR is not added to HA, HA is added 
to STR, and that's the way it should be: /STR/ is the equivalent of HKA (you 
can use combat maneuvers with just STR, for example). 
  
>     Though it cannot be 'spread' in the manner of an Energy  
>Blast, an HA can be manipulated to improve OCV at the price of  
>damage.  Each 1d6 of damage sacrificed gives a +1 OCV.  Since an  
>HA - even when not focused - is assumed to be somewhat separate  
>from the character using it, it can be used to Block an  
>opponent's attack. 
 
This is where I have the real problem: exactly why are HA's "assumed to be 
somewhat separate from the character using it"?  The two most common SFX 
besides weapons (i.e. Focus) that I've seen HA used for in the past are 
superspeed punches and superdense skin.  Neither is separate from the 
character in any fashion, and it seems like a far easier approach to buy OCV 
bonuses with combat levels in addition to HA damage than to box them 
together and force players to limit them out. 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:22:25 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Open Apology 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Useful Tip: Never, ever answer mail while under the influence of sleep 
deprivation. 
 
I'd like to apologize to the list for a major blunder o' mine.  Even as I 
was typing away to answer Kev's "fundamentalist voice" message, my brain is 
thinking "I'm so clever, I'm making a private response."  Only, of course, I 
sent it to the list anyways because my mind was futzing up which addresses 
went on which messages. 
 
If you feel you really have to flame me for opening up a religious debate on 
the list, go right ahead -- I deserve it (*sigh*). But at least know that I 
realize I did make a mistake, and I'm sorry for it.  The only religious 
arguments that belong on this list are Linked debates (*duck*). 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:22:27 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:45 AM 12/14/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>I would not call Chris Cloutier's art mediocre.  It is certainly a lot 
>more dynamic and creative than Mark Williams stuff ever was (that was 
>mediocre), and if spends some time on the peice it can turn out excellent. 
>I still say that Madame Moonlight has one of the best costume designs in 
>all of the Champions books. 
> 
>I think Chris's only real drawback is his stuff may be a touch too 
>'cartoony' for most books. 
 
Yes, double underline the word "most".  That is a MAJOR drawback, and 
probably what leads it to be classed "mediocre". 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: TUSV and Energy Conversions 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 01:39:19 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
>>Here's another take on a previous TUSV thread on the damage caused by a 
>>moving vehicle hitting a building. 
>> 
>>To get a better grasp on the nature of damage energy, a simple guideline 
I 
>>adopted some time ago was to treat 1 DC as roughly equal to 50 joules of 
>>energy.  I read somewhere that a typical punch is in the 25-100 joule 
>>range, so this seemed reasonable.  For every additional DC, the energy 
>>involved doubles--a 2d6 punch is about 100 joules, a 3d6 kick about 200 
>>joules, and so on.   This neatly follows the same numbers in the 
>>progression of the doubling of lift mass with increasing STR. 
> 
>Say, you wouldn't happen to have handy the conversions for joules into, 
>say, degrees of heat or ampres of electricity and such, would you? 
> 
So Bob Greenwade asks.  Gimme a minute while I dig out my old college 
physics text. 
 
The kilocalorie (or kcal, which is the same as the food Calorie, which is 
actually 1,000 calories) is equal to 4,187 joules of mechanical energy.  1 
calorie will raise 1 gm of water from 14.5 to 15.5 degrees Celsius.  So 
4,187 J of mechanical energy will raise the temperature of 1 kg of water 
by 1 degree Celsius, just as will 1,000 cal. 
 
>From there, you can translate 1 DC into 50 J * (1,000 cal/4,187 J) = 12 
calories of heat energy.  Call it 10 calories for a nice, round number.  A 
12d6 EB of heat energy packs about 100 kJ or 20 kcal.  A 24d6 EB packs 400 
mJ or 80,000 kcal, enough energy to turn 100 kg of room-temperature water 
into vapor, even when you factor in the heat of vaporization for water, 
539 kcal/kg.  That's enough energy to instantly vaporize a normal human. 
 
I suppose you could call a cold-based energy attack one that drains a 
comparable amount of heat energy from a target.  A 24d6 cold ray that 
drains 80,000 kcal from that same human would leave him just as dead.  
(Note that the heat of fusion of water is only 80 kcal/kg, so that same 
amount of cold energy could freeze considerably more than 100 kg of water, 
though that's really a Transformation Attack.) 
 
Translating heat energy into degrees of temperature gets tricky.  
Substances differ in the quantity of heat needed to produce a given rise 
in temperature in a given mass.  The ratio of the amount of heat energy 
delta-Q supplied to a body to its corresponding temperature rise delta-T 
is the body heat's capacity C, or C = delta-Q/delta-T. 
 
The specific heat c, or heat capacity per unit mass of a body, is a 
characteristic of the material of which the body is composed.  Specific 
heat c = delta-Q/(m * delta-T).  At 20 degrees Celsius and 1.0 atm of 
pressure, water has a specific heat of 1.00 cal/(gm*degree Celsius).  The 
specific heat of aluminum is 0.215, copper 0.092, and lead 0.031.  
Generally, the greater an element's atomic weight, the lower its specific 
heat. 
 
Knowing the specific heat, the current temperature, the melting/freezing 
point of a given material, and the material's heat of vaporization/fusion, 
you can calculate how much heat/cold energy is required to melt an iron 
golem or turn a liquid-metal Terminator 2-type cyborg into a popsicle.  
And there are still the flash or ignition points of flammable materials to 
be considered.  All very messy. 
 
To easily translate damage dice into degrees of temperature, you have to 
choose a standard material and a standard unit of mass.  Suppose you pick 
water, the basic material of life.  Water can store a lot of heat, so 
temperature figures for damage dice don't sound so impressive.  Treat BODY 
as the standard unit of mass, and you have to choose between living or 
unliving matter, a choice between 1 BODY equals 200 gm or 1 BODY equals 
1.6 kg, a choice that changes temperature figures by a factor of eight. 
 
I'm inclined to pick some generic form of steel as the standard material, 
since how well a hero can blast through armor seems to be the true way to 
measure a character's mettle (yes, pun intended).  That gives a specific 
heat in the range of 0.1.  I personally think the BODY figures for 
unliving matter to be too low, save for somewhat inelastic and brittle 
materials, so I'd use the mass figure for living matter and vehicles. 
 
1d6 of energy is 10 calories, which would raise 200 gm of a material with 
a specific heat of 0.1 by about 0.5 degrees Celsius.  A 12d6 attack would 
raise that 1 BODY of metal by 1,000 degrees, and a 24d6 attack by four 
million degrees.  By way of comparison, the sun's surface is about 6,000 
degrees (15 DC), the sun's core 15 million degrees (26 DC), and the center 
of an H-bomb explosion exceeds 300 million degrees (31 DC).  
 
Now, for electricity.  Watts of power are defined as joules of energy 
expended per second.  (1 horsepower equals 746 watts.)  The applicable 
equations for power, voltage, current, and resistance are, thanks to Mr. 
Joule, P = V * i, P =  
V^2/R, and P = i^2 * R.  If you're dealing with 120 volt juice from an 
American outlet, and you know the current amperage, you know how many 
joules of energy the character suffers per second of contact.  Translating 
dice of damage into amps depends on knowing one of the other values in the 
equations, and on the time of exposure to the current.  I suppose that 
knowing the typical electrical resistance of human flesh--which I 
don't--would give a crude way of estimating amps suffered by a character 
for a given power in watts. 
 
As one measure of comparison, the energy of rare "positive giant" 
lightning strikes has been measured as high as three billion joules (27 DC 
of electrical energy) with temperatures reaching 30,000 degrees Celsius 
(17 DC of heat energy).  I doubt that Storm can summon lightning bolts of 
such fury without a lengthy prep, though Thor certainly could. 
 
Now, a challenge for some real science wizards.  Find a way to 
conveniently relate dice of damage into units of pressure.  From there, 
translate the Mohs' and Knoop hardness scales into points of resistant 
defense.  That way, we'll know the resistant defense of a diamond Grond 
tries to crush in his hand. 
 
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 01:43:04 -0500 
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net 
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!] 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
> > The only sin that sends you to Hell is unbelief. If you don't believe 
> > that Jesus died for your sins then there is no hope for you. 
> 
> Frankly, this is just as offensive a belief as claiming that RPGs and card 
> games are the work of the devil.  I cannot reconcile any belief system that 
> says: 
>         a) There is a benevolent supreme intelligence 
>         b) He/she/it will damn a Bushman or Aborigine or Tibetan or (you 
>         get the idea) who has led a benevolent existence on the 
>         technicality that they didn't HAVE a "local New Testament Church". 
> 
> The two concepts just aren't consistent.  If salvation/damnation (assuming 
> they exist) is not dependent on the actual composition of one's moral fiber 
> but merely some arbitrary pledge of allegiance, I'd say there's no hope for GOD. 
 
You must remember that as a Fundamental Christian I beleieve in Jesus Christ. Not 
Buddah, Vishnu nor any other deities. Jesus saves by grace, the unmerited favor of 
God. The composition of your morale fiber is irrelevant because you could never be 
good enough to work your way into heaven. No matter how good you were, someone would 
be better. Instead of Drawing a line somewhere, it is "Whosoever will may come." 
Salvation is easy. Working at being a good Christian is where we fall short.  As for 
Aborigines and the like, Jesus commands us to go forth into all the world and preach 
the gospel. That is why there are missionaries. 
 
> 
> 
> > Thirdly, the Bible teaches that there are only two forces at work here 
> > on Earth, God and Satan. 
> 
> No, Biblical *scholars* teach this.  The Bible itself takes contradictary 
> stances, on account that it is a compilation of several different authors 
> who didn't confer with each other (sorta like the DC Universe). 
 
The Bible says that it has one author.  Different men who were all inspired by the 
Holy Spirit. If you know of a contradiction in the Bible, cite the books and verses 
please. 
 
> 
> 
> > You see how ridiculous it can become. The Christian life is supposed to 
> > be balanced. You cannot remove yourself from the world physically but you 
> > are supposed to spiritually. It helps to limit your exposure to non-Godly 
> > things. If you consider yourself a Christian, and you play games, have 
> > fun. But don't allow Magic or Champions or anything else become your God. 
> > Have you ever missed church to play a game? 
> 
> Ah, here we have the whole quandary: if God is everywhere (at least, 
> his/her/its awareness is everywhere, on account of being omniscient), then 
> isn't "church" wherever and however I choose to worship him?  Maybe it's 
> okay if we just say a grace before breaking out the decks. :] 
 
The word church is from the greek eclesia which translates into "called out 
assembly". God is everywhere but he expects you to be in church, being called out 
from the world, when it is time. "My church is wherever I am" is false philosophy 
taught be people who would rather be fishing than in church. You should check all 
the references in the Old and New Testements about the House of God before blowing 
off church to crush villains. 
 
Love in Christ 
Kev 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 01:56:39 -0500 
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net 
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood 
Subject: Re: Extra Time on a Triggered Power 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Rick Holding wrote: 
 
> -- ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net wrote: 
> > 
> > One of the characters in my campaign is using an INT Drain which 
> > takes 5 minutes to prepare, but it is also built with a Trigger, so 
> > that it can be delivered in combat; essentially, she has to inject 
> > a potion into someone for the drug to take effect. 
> > 
> > Is anybody else as bugged by this as I am? I don't think that the 
> > Extra Time should be worth the full limitation in these 
> > circumstances.  How do you handle injectible drugs in your campaigns? 
> 
>         That is the primary use of trigger.  A player sets up a power, 
> HOWEVER LONG IT TAKES.  All endurance is paid at this time.  At some 
> later time, an event triggers the power, in this case injecting a drug. 
> She must still make an attack role and overcome any other limitations 
> that the power may have, presumably bare skin or whatever to inject 
> through. 
> 
>         Of course, once the power is expended, the start up time must be 
> followed.  It is not specified that the player can only have one 
> triggered power set at one time.  That would have to be up to GM's to 
> decide how many "charges" can be set up at once. 
> 
 
Or you can follow this simple rule of GMing. 
If it bothers you or disrupts your game don't allow it. or if you feel 
purchasing extra time limitation coupled with a trigger to make a devasting 
attack too cheap then up the cost. The point is you have the final say in 
keeping the balance in your campaign. 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:57:26 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
> >> Right there we have a contradiction between the desired effect -- being 
> >> unhittable -- and the game mechanics. 
> 
> TRG> 	Not a valid agument, Rat. 
> 
> Bullshit, it is an argument based entirely on special effects. 
 
	Youd didn't read the rest of the post.  Plenty of Hero power 
constructions involving not getting hit/ not taking damage have made them 
be equals.  Thus we have missile deflections that are actually a dodge, 
and blocks that are actually a dodge.  We have a shield providing a bonus 
to DCV or a bonus to defenses -- but it does the same thing.  When it 
comes down to it, not being hit == taking no damage.  One and the same. 
With Desol's effect of stopping all damage and related effects, it has the 
same game effect as not being hit at all.  Works fine. 
 
	Therefore, your argument is invalid.  The SFX is quite covered by 
the power build in question. 
 
	And again I ask, how would you build the power so there is no 
possibility of the "lucky shot". 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 01:02:22 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> I agree. Rather than a generic +1/2 Advantage that for some reason affects 
> any desolid character, regardless of special effect, I'd have a bunch of 
> +1/4 Advantages like Affects Ghosts/Spirits, Affects Dimensional Shifted, 
> Affects Temporally Displaced, etc. Actually, I think I'd still call it one 
> advantage, but require SFX to be specified in order to determine 
> applicability. 
 
	That's a pretty good, and more logical, way to do it.  I'd allow, 
then, the full -1/2 affects desolid for a mix of possible effects, but 
keep it strictly GM limited.  The only SFX I can think of right now is 
extreme luck:  "Wow, somehow my blast crossed the dimensional shift and 
hit him."  or "Wow, I was lucky it defracted on his gaseous form and was 
able to get him." 
 
 
> I might also do something similar for Hardened. Why should titanium steel 
> walls stop a dimension walking teleporter? 
 
	Well, I think there needs to be a modifier like "affects 
teleport".  Or, more appropriately, make it a function of CE.  That would 
seem to work best. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 01:05:15 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
> << Yup.  If the quality was high enough. >> 
> 
>   You're not getting off the hook that easy, you can-of-worms-opener, you! :D 
> 
>   Just how do you define "high enough" quality? 
 
 
	See some of the other posts, but I think the cardboard has to be a 
little thinker than that for Alien Enemies and the Champs GM screen. 
 
	Also, art that makes it possible to tell who a character is. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:14:13 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
X-Sender: susano@access2.digex.net 
Reply-To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Sean Pavlish wrote: 
 
> >  Hmm.. a character that uses Desolidification, with Totally Invisible power 
> >effects... with the special effect of "awesome Zen-like martial arts ability 
> >to avoid blows" or some such (a la Remo Williams, or legendary ninja 
> >abilities, etc). Too wild? Too GROSS? 
>  
> A friend of mine ran a campaign with an NPC with that exact power.  The guys 
> that played definately had a very difficult time with it in the run and the GM 
> had a difficult time dodging things after...(when they figured it out)   :) 
 
Hey, Sean, it you're talking about Shi (in my Justice Alliance game), she 
didn't have this power exact power.  What she did have was Desolid, IPE 
(sight), define as becoming intangible.  OTOH, the PCs almost went crazy 
because I described her as dodging constantly resulting in the PCs 
triumphantly telling me they had hit a DCV of 17 only to have me say "you 
miss".  She also aborted to her Desolid often to avoid damage.  It wasn't 
until someone saw her walk through a wall that they realized something was 
up. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 01:20:31 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Re: Villian groups 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 Humor me on this one! 
>>  
>> I like to construct scenarios with touches of current events and or people  
>> twisted enough to fit into a four color genre. Has anyone put together a  
>> villain group based on the Spice Girls? You have five different  
>> personalities that could be used to create five different villains banded  
>> together to promote "Girl Power." 
>>  
>	Neat idea. But I'd probably do it as a corporate Hero Team 
>designed to promote a particular British record label by claiming to 
>be a dumbed up version of feminism. 
 
If you really wanted them to be like the SG's only 2 would actually have 
super powers the others would just look good and help out... 
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:23:24 -0800 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editio 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
* Original Area: RO_Internet 
* Original To  : GoldRushG@aol.com (1:143/240) 
 
 G >  
 G >   But if we're going to go to the expense of reprinting the game,  
 G > rather see us take opportunity to clean up the rest of the typos,  
 G > some new artwork, change the trade dress (i.e., the outside cover  
 G > layout, maybe? And there are a few MINOR rules changes that Hero wants  
 G > make. And let's not forget that we can also streamline those  
 G > cumbersome rules,  along with including more or better examples...  
 G >  
 G >   Mark @ GRG  
 G > ---  
  
Great Idea!  I'd buy it.  Sounds more like 4.1 than '5th edition.'  
OK, 4.2, there was Chamions Deluxe.  I'd be delighted with a  
5th edition, even if there were changes comprable (in degree) to  
those between 3rd and 4th.  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:23:46 -0800 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editio 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
* Original Area: RO_Internet 
* Original To  : rook@shell.infinex.com (1:143/240) 
 
 r > > some new artwork, change the trade dress (i.e., the  
 r > > outside cover design) and  
 r >  
 r >  Yes please. That cover needs a facelift.  
 r >  
  
Really?  I thought it was pretty good.  I'd realy like to  
see the next panel, though:  Seeker burried under the wall  
Doc D just squished him with, and the broken Katana stiking  
out....  
  
 r > > layout, maybe? And there are a few MINOR rules changes that Hero  
 r > wants to  
 r > > make.  
 r >  Like?  
 r >  
  
I believe it's doubling the cost of Aid, and dumping Hand Attack...  
At least Steve P has mentioned those.  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:24:28 -0800 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
* Original Area: RO_Internet 
* Original To  : mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net (1:143/240) 
 
 m > Juat a general question to the list, did that happen to everyone?  
 m >  
  
No, I only ever saw 1 BBB start to go... and that was after 7  
years.  Mine was still in good shape this year, when I gave  
it to my godson (he's old enough to start gaming...)  
  
Now I'm combing the local stores for a HSR...  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:24:52 -0800 
Subject: Some weapons 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
* Original Area: RO_Internet 
* Original To  : merlin273@juno.com (1:143/241) 
 
 m > Hey,  
 m > If anyone's interested...I've converted some basic SF weapons from  
 m > GURPS  
 m > Ultra-Tech through BTRC's Guns, Guns, Guns(TM) to Hero, then to  
 m > Fuzion.  
 m > I've set their power at the level of my SF campaign (TL12)  
 m >  
 m > WEAPON  TL12 DV HERO FUZION  
 m > Blaster Pistol  7d 58 2d6+1 DC7  
 m > Hvy Blaster Pistol 8d 65 2d6+1 DC7  
 m > Blaster Rifle 10d+1 82 3d6-1 DC8  
 m > Hvy Blaster Rifle 18d 135 3d6 DC9  
 m > Electron Pistol 8d 65 2d6+1 DC7  
 m > Electron Rifle 16d 121 3d6 DC9  
  
What?  No millitary X-ray lasers?  How are  
we supposed to kill superheroes?  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:25:14 -0800 
Subject: Re: Champions  5th Editi 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
* Original Area: RO_Internet 
* Original To  : bob.greenwade@klock.com (1:143/240) 
 
 b > >the Hero System we all love, with a few MINOR rules changes (like  
 b > Hand  
 b > >Attacks...).  
 b >  
 b >    Opal has a fix for Hand Attack which most of the folks on the list  
 b > like.  
 b >  (I know Bill and I both do, but he and I tend to agree on things  
 b > anyway.)  
  
Now if Rat and Vox and Tim Gilberg all liked it... (no wait, thats  
the coming Apocolypse!)  
  
 b >    Hey Opal!  Do you mind posting that again, for Mark?   :-]  
 b > ---  
  
I know that Steve P has mentioned dumping HA, still, hope springs  
eternal. (plus I'm egotistical and love posting my own stuff :)  
  
Hand-to-Hand (normal) Attack:  
     A character with this Standard Power can increase the amount  
of normal damage he does in hand-to-hand combat.  For 5 Character  
Points, the character can buy +1d6 HA.  The HA must be defined as  
physical or energy, normal or stun-only.  Strength adds directly  
to the damage of any type of HA just as it does with a hand-to-  
hand killing attack - no more than doubling the DCs of the  
attack.  Alternately a small HA can be added directly to STR  
damage with any kind of striking maneuver as long as the HA is  
defined as doing normal physical damage with no advantages that  
would have to be extended to strength.  
     Though it cannot be 'spread' in the manner of an Energy  
Blast, an HA can be manipulated to improve OCV at the price of  
damage.  Each 1d6 of damage sacrificed gives a +1 OCV.  Since an  
HA - even when not focused - is assumed to be somewhat separate  
from the character using it, it can be used to Block an  
opponent's attack.  The character is considered armed and has a  
+1 OCV per 3d6 of HA employed.  If the character does not want to  
be able to use his HA to improve OCV, he can take the -1/4 'Beam'  
limitation.  
     Hand-to-Hand Attack cost: +1d6 HA per 5 Apts, minimum cost  
     10pts.  
  
BTW, I use a lot of minor Variants but two more might  
at least inspire some good ideas for a revised 4th ed:  
  
  
Regeneration:  
     This special power allows a character to recover BOD more  
rapidly.  Normally, BOD heals at a rate of 1 per point of  
Recovery each month.  Each 5 pts of Regeneration moves that  
recovery rate one step up on the time chart - up to 35 pts which  
allows the character to heal his REC in BOD each turn (on post-  
segment-12).  For 45 pts, the character can heal BOD every time  
he takes a recovery (including post-segment-12).  Characters  
wishing to recover from wounds even faster should consider taking  
Damage Reduction with the special effect of instantly healing.  
     Regeneration can go beyond merely speeding healing.  For +10  
pts the character's rate of Regeneration is unaffected by  
environmental factors or levels of exertion.  For +15 pts, he  
does not bleed (doesn't lose BOD after being reduced to 0 BOD or  
suffer from the effects of the optional bleeding rules).  The  
character can also regrow lost limbs and recover completely from  
the effects of Disabling wounds for +10 pts.  
     Regeneration cost:  5pts per step on the time chart.  Heal  
     BOD on each Recovery for 45pts.  Ignore environment/exertion  
     for +10 pts.  Does not bleed +15pts.  Regrow limbs +10.  
     Minimum cost 10pts.  
  
They did end up using something similar to the in FUZION... don't  
know if that a good sign or not...  
  
  
And, since I'm a 5pt per die Fanatic:  
  
Telekinesis:  
     A character with this standard power can move objects at a  
distance.  He can apply 1pt of strength for each point in  
Telekinesis. TK can be used only to hold or move targets, not  
'punch' or 'squeeze' them.  Targets that are held can use their  
strength to escape, just as if they were grabbed by a normal  
opponent.  Targets can be moved about, within range (5" per pt of  
TK), at a rate equal to the distance of a standing throw per  
phase.  If the telekinetic does not wish to maintain his hold he  
can hurl a target the distance of a running throw.  A victim  
hurled or slammed against a sufficiently unyielding surface can  
take up to TK STR/5 in d6 of normal damage.  However, the shock  
of doing this much damage causes the TK grab to be automatically  
broken.  A 'casual' (1/2 STR) slam does not have this effect.  
     Characters wishing to do direct damage to a victim with TK  
can take a +1/2 advantage to do so.  This form of TK allows the  
user to slam a victim for full damage without breaking his hold  
or squeeze him each phase for normal damage.  'Only' being able  
to squeeze or slam without breaking the hold, but not both, is  
still a +1/2 advantage, since the two actions are mechanically  
all but identical.  Characters wishing to have a 'Telekinetic  
Punch' can buy a physical energy blast and place it in a  
multipower with their TK.  Some campaigns (especially those that  
disallow power frameworks) might allow Direct TK to punch.  Fine  
work, such as the character could perform with his own hands, can  
be accomplished with TK, though a DEX roll (with range penalties)  
is required.  Not being able to do fine work is a     -1/4  
limitation, analogous to the 'Beam' limitation on EB.  In no case  
does TK stack with the character's STR characteristic.  
     Telekinesis cost: 1pt TK str for 1 Character point, minimum  
     cost 10pts Direct TK is a  +1/2 advantage and lets TK  
     squeeze or slam w/o losing its hold.  No fine work is a -1/4  
     limitation.  Range is 5xpts in power.  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:25:34 -0800 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
* Original Area: RO_Internet 
* Original To  : trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu (1:143/240) 
 
 t > > What's so horrifying about having two powers that can be used  
 t > > independently or gang-fired?  
 t >  
 t >  Basically, it takes the focus away from SFX and into power  
 t > effects.   You define a SFX and take a power for it.  You don't take a  
 t > couple of powers, give them each SFX, then say that together they make  
 t > up  
 t > a new SFX.  
 t >    -Tim Gilberg  
 t > ---  
  
Huh?  How would using two attacks at the same time change thier  
F/X?  I mean, if Iron Man fires Repulsors and Unibeam at the  
same time, they're still Repulsors and it's still the Unibeam,  
they not sudenly Unipulsors or Mutant-powered eyebeams or  
anything...  
  
In the realm of house rules... If I allowed a character to  
do that sort of thing (it does require having 2 attack powers,  
that are targeted the same way, bought outside of power  
frameworks... pretty expensive, and you don't see it much)  
I'd roll it like Autofire, each -2 you make the roll buy  
lets another one of the powers hit.  
  
So, in the above example, Shellhead would have a 2-shot-  
only Autofire on the Repulsors, and a straight KA for the  
Unibeam.  Cutting lose with both at the same time, he'd  
hit with both repulsors and the unibeam if he made his  
attack roll by 4.  If he made it dead on, only one would  
hit (dust of a d3 and randomly determine it).  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:25:58 -0800 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editio 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
* Original Area: RO_Internet 
* Original To  : GoldRushG@aol.com (1:143/240) 
 
 G >   One other note. Keep in mind that, primarily because of financial  
 G > considerations, we are looking at printing the Hero System rules book  
 G > separately, with Champions being a genre book. Champions would have  
....  
 G > several different types, etc., but the Hero System "core" rules would  
 G > the Hero System rules book.  
 G >  
 G >   I realize this may not be a popular decision, and I'm willing to  
 G > hear well reasoned discussion for or against the idea. But please consi  
  
Suits me to a T.  And, yes, I'd buy 'em both.  
  
I'd really like to see the 'next panel' of the Dr. D vs Seeker  
fight from the BBB... and Doc D better be winning.  :)  
  
  
 G >   In addition, future genre books would be published like the "new"  
 G > Champions  
 G > book, and we may even be able to publish revisions of older genre  
 G > books  
 G > (Fantasy Hero, anyone?).  
  
Yes, and  STAR HERO!!  
  
 G >   Mark @ GRG  
 G > ---  
  
  
Wow, I like this new emphasis on Genre books...  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:26:32 -0800 
Subject: Cardboard Heroes 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
* Original Area: RO_Internet 
* Original To  : GoldRushG@aol.com (1:143/240) 
 
 G >  
 G >   Since it seems that the majority of folks (onthis list, anyway)  
 G > would like  
 G > to see more cardboard minis, let me ask you this: Would you be willing  
 G > to pay  
 G > an extra $2 for a book that had them included?  
 G >  
 G >   Mark @ GRG  
 G > ---  
  
If they were decent, I'd buy a book I didn't want to get them.  
  
(I probably shouldn't have admitted that)   :)  
  
I'd rather buy packs of them sepparately, of course.  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:26:58 -0800 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
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* Original Area: RO_Internet 
* Original To  : trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu (1:143/240) 
 
 t >  
 t >  Never said there was no middle ground, simply said you had to pay  
 t > for it, probably with a MP.  
 t >  
 t >  
 t >    -Tim Gilberg  
 t > ---  
  
I guess you didn't notice that the Multipower in question  
doesn't end up costing much more (or even slightly less -  
a whole 1 pt less in the example I posted)  
than just buying two powers straight up...  
  
  
Ex:  
  
The poor guy who started this mentioned a 10d EB, and a  
3d flash:  
  
50 Multipower  
 5 10d EB  
 3 3d Flash  
 5 10d EB (again, it's a rules quirk)  
20 3d Flash, linked to the 2nd EB -1/2  
--  
83  
  
as opposed to...  
  
50 10d EB  
30 3d Flash  
--  
80  
  
3 pts huh?  So is that a 1/10th Advantage on the Flash  
or a 1/17th advantage on the EB.. or +1/27th each,  :)  
  
Of course, if you're only linking a 1d Flash, it's less  
silly:  
  
50 Multipower  
 5 10d EB  
 1 1d Flash  
 5 10d EB  
 7 Linked 1d Flash -1/2  
--  
68  
  
vs  
  
50 10d EB  
10 1d Flash  
--  
60  
  
The 8 pts would be a big advantage (+3/4) on the  
Flash, but still less than 1/4 for the EB.  In  
any case, it's a pretty trivial number of points  
for such a heated debate.  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:27:36 -0800 
Subject: Incomplete Rules (was 5t 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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* Original Area: RO_Internet 
* Original To  : bsvitavs@bu.edu (1:143/240) 
 
 b > I'm all for the 5th ed. In addition to the various suggestions people  
 b > have  
 b > already made, I hope it includes either a "slipperiness" power or a  
 b > revised Change Environment that can make an icy surface with combat  
 b > effects. (My pet peeve.)  
 b >  
  
The CE that was posted recently was a bit too powerful and complex  
for my liking, but it was still better than those Dex Drains and  
stuff...  
  
 b > If there are any extensive changes at all, I wouldn't mind seeing  
 b > something like (but not exactly like) the "Incomplete Character"  
 b > rules.  
 b > ---  
  
What parts of the Incomplete rules would you like to see done  
differently.... It's still very much under development.  
(there's still some bits that aren't ironed out  
like 'lacks DEX'...)  
  
Post comments to the list or email jimalj@best.com  (he won't  
mind, really).  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:28:00 -0800 
Subject: Yet Another Power Proble 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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* Original Area: RO_Internet 
* Original To  : lizard@dnai.com (1:143/240) 
 
 l > The spell, basically, creates a mouth with sharp pointy teeth on an  
 l > inanimate object, most usually a bag or sack. Thief reaches into bag,  
 l > gets hand chomped (call it a 1d6 HKA). How to do this as a spell?  
 l >  
  
Oh yeah, that one, Wizard's handbook, right?  
  
 l > Focus? Not really:The spell must be cast on an object, but the focus  
 l >  
nope  
 l > Transform? The all-purpose catch all. I'd like to avoid it.  
 l >  
me too  
 l > Independant? No, the spell expires after one bite, and the caster can  
 l > re-cast it multiple times without trouble.  
nooo  
  
You're looking for a minimum-cost (1/2d?) KA.  Triggered (by touching  
the oject).  Because of the way trigger works, you have to make it  
Area Effect Hex (or the teeth bite the bag...), with a Limitted power  
limitation 'only affects the one triggering the power' -1/4.  
  
I use a similar power for contact poisons.  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:28:18 -0800 
Subject: Extra Time on a Triggere 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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* Original Area: RO_Internet 
* Original To  : ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net (1:143/240) 
 
 > One of the characters in my campaign is using an INT Drain which  
 > takes 5 minutes to prepare, but it is also built with a Trigger, so  
 > that it can be delivered in combat; essentially, she has to inject  
 > a potion into someone for the drug to take effect.  
 >  
 > Is anybody else as bugged by this as I am? I don't think that the  
 > Extra Time should be worth the full limitation in these  
 > circumstances.  How do you handle injectible drugs in your campaigns?  
 >  
 > Guy  
 > ----------------------------------  
  
I believe it's halved...  If it isn't officially, you can always  
declare a variant to that effect.  
  
Note that, but default, Trigger effects the item/person it's put  
on... In this case, the *needle* is going to be drugged... :)  
You have to buy AE, with a limitation that it only affects the  
one target, to get around this (well, UBO or UAO, or something  
might work)  (darn, I have to get a new HSR!  practically  
memorized just isn't quite the same)  
  
And since you asked about injected poison....  let  
me just dig this up out of the recesses of my hard  
drive... OK the itty bitty cracks, 60 Meg hard drive  
don't get to have recesses do they?  :)  
  
___---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
  
 Area:    Ro_Herolist  
  Msg:    #113  
 Date:    09-29-94 03:33 (Public)  
 From:    Opal  
 To:      hero-l@omg.org  
 Subject: Gradual Effect...  
___---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
  
 > Has anybody noticed that, while the gradual effect rule is really good  
 > for things like acids, that is sucks for poisons in a heroic-level  
 > world? I find that I keep resorting to uncontrolled,  
 > continuous drains to g  
 > my creature's poisons down to a reasonable cost, and still keep them  
 > leathal  
 >  
 > Does anybody else have any other ideas?  
 >  
  
Actually a Gradual Effect KA is ideal for poisons in a heroic-level  
campaign.  However, (and you have to make an aparently difficult leap  
here) you DON'T NEED TO BUY THEM NND.  With the low levels of resistant  
DEF in heroic games there's no need for the horendously expensive +2  
NND-that-does-body advantage.  
  
Here are 4 examples of basic poison types:  
  
Injected Poison (Blade Venom):  This poison represents a poisoned dagger or 
 
similar weapon.  The first 1d of killing damage occurs imediately and  
represents the wound caused by the blade.  If this first increment fails to  
do body damage, the remaining 3d of damage (that caused by the poison)  
do not occur.  Obviously this works will for monster attacks as well.  
For a snakebite, dart or poison ring effect (one that is delivered by a  
very small wound) take the lim: 'doesn't work at all vs rPD' -1/2.  
   4d6 RKAp, Gradual: 1trn (4 1d KAs, 1 every 3 segments) -  
1/2, No Range -1/2,  
Must do body on first increment or attack fails -1/4, 6 charges -3/4,  
OAF: Envenomed weapon -1.  
Active Cost: 60, Real cost: 15.  
  
Injested Poison:  This poison kills only those characters who actually  
swallow it.  It is planted in food or water and is dificult  
to detect.  Though  
it is not an NND, few characters will be able to defend  
against it.  Remember,  
most armor (in heroic games) doesn't cover the character  
completely.  One area  
it doesn't cover is the inside of his mouth!  You can't eat  
with a Force Field  
up so there's no danger of that stopping the poison once its gone off. Those  
characters with unfocused Armor or Damage resistance should  
get thier defenses  
after all, if thier very skin can turn sword blades it's not that surprising 
 
that a poison meant to kill normal humans wont work as well.  
    3d6-1 RKAp, Triggered: when eaten +1/4, Area Effect Hex  
+1/2, Invisible to  
all but one sense group +3/4, Gradual: 1hr -2, IAF: poison ampule -1/2, Only  
affects triggering characters -1/4, vs. Living only -1/2,  
not vs creatures with  
wierd metabolisms/appropriate Life support/immunities -1/4, 4 chgs -1.  
Active Cost: 100, Real Cost: 18  
    Note: the poison must be area effect or else it only damages the FOOD it  
was planted in.  Also since it's AE it doesn't take a hit location of head  
(since its set off when you swallow it) or stomach, just a 'generalized' hit.  
  
Contatct Poison:  This poison kills those who touch it with thier exposed  
flesh.  Obviously armor, and even normal clothing, offers  
complete protection.  
This write up assumes the poison is part of a creature's natural deffense -  
like a Poison Arrow Tree Frog - but it could also be 'planted' on an object  
by using advantages like those of the Injested Poison.  
    3d6 RKAp, Damage Shield +1/2, 0 END +1/2, Gradual: 1 turn -1/2, Attacker  
must make contact with bare flesh -1 (most attackers use weapons), Only vs  
living creatures -1/2, not vs creatures with sealed LS, immunities, wierd  
metabolisms or thik skin/fur/scales -1/2.  
Active cost 90, Real Cost 27.  
  
Poison Gas:  This poison lingers in the air for a short time doing damage  
to all who breath it durring that period.  This is an example of a poison  
that pretty much has to be an NND.  However, it doesn't have to be a huge  
one, nor need it be gradual.  
    1d6 RKAp, NND:Sealed Life Support (does BOD) +2, Area Effect: Radius +1,  
Continuous +1, Uncontrollable +1/2, Extended Area +1/2, OAF: gas grenade -1,  
1 continuing charge lasting 1 min -1, vs living -1/2, dispersed by high  
winds or counteragents -0 (required because of the Uncontrollable Adv.).  
Active Cost 90, Real cost 27  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58 * I am not a Rules Lawyer...I'm a Rules Activist.  
  
___ Maximus/2 2.01wb  
 * Origin: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-735-0481 * (1:143/240)  
  
  
   
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:28:46 -0800 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editio 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
* Original Area: RO_Internet 
* Original To  : trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu (1:143/240) 
 
 t >  
 t > > If there are any extensive changes at all, I wouldn't mind seeing  
 t > > something like (but not exactly like) the "Incomplete Character"  
 t > rules.  
 t >  
 t >  
 t >  I don't.  Not everyone would like the change, and it would make  
 t > most 4th edition stuff obsolete.  Bad idea.  No major changes means  
 t > less  
 t > complaints.  
 t >  
 t >  
 t >    -Tim Gilberg  
 t > ---  
  
Have you seen the Incomplete rules.... they change the way Vehicles,  
Bases, Automatons, and Computers work.  Those are pretty much minor  
sidelines to hero 4th, hardly 'most of 4th ed.'  In fact, what they  
do is make the fairly wierd, cobbled-together systems used for those  
things work with the standard character build system.  
  
They also open up the possiblity of a lot of different character  
types...  
  
Oh, or are you just talking about 'extensive changes' in general?  
Sorry...  
  
I think the level of change between 3rd and 4th could be tollerated  
(though that level of change isn't actualy nescisary, it's just  
a few problems that need to be ironed out (like linked)  :)  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 14 Dec 97 01:29:02 -0800 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
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* Original Area: RO_Internet 
* Original To  : Firelynx16@aol.com (1:143/240) 
 
 F > Limitation has therefore put you at a disadvantage.  Now, GMs must  
 F > closely  
 F > monitor characters with the Linked Disad, so they don't simply buy  
 F > another  
 F > Flash.  If that's the case, then the Linked Flash has lost it's  
 F > Limitation  
 F > value, and deserves no points.  
 F >  
 F > 'Lynx  
 F > ---  
  
So, they don't get points for it... do they still get to take  
it and fire the two powers at once?  
  
50 10d EB  
20 linked 3d Flash -1/2  
--  
70  and linked is valid, by your interpretation...  
  
but, if the character has the EB in a multipower with  
a similar Flash, then he gets no points for the Linked  
  
50 Multipower  
 3 3d Flash  
 5 10d EB  
30 3d Flash linked to EB -0  
--  
88  
  
Right?  
  
But wait... if the linked 3d flash isn't limited...  
Why do I need to go and buy the 2nd 3d Flash?  
  
I mean, if a mutant character has 3d Killing, 0END  
(laser eye beams), and decides to get an 'Infinity  
Inc' Laser pistol (3d Killing, 0 END, OAF)... does  
he not get the Focus limitation, because he always  
has a 3d RKA ready to use at 0END?  I mean, that  
seems to be the logic you're using...  So this  
mutant is paying 135 pts and he basicly has a  
3d KA, 0 END....  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 03:52:48 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!] 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
> You must remember that as a Fundamental Christian I beleieve in Jesus Christ. Not 
> Buddah, Vishnu nor any other deities. Jesus saves by grace, the unmerited favor of 
 
	You know, I'm gonna be laughing my freaking ass off when you're 
sitting in the Zorastrian version of hell with me, because you chose the 
wrong God to worship.  If so.  Of course, in all likelyhood, no one's 
gonna be laughing cause there ain't no such thing as an afterlife -- Just 
a bunch of dreams made up by man so he could face the terror of death and 
existance. 
 
> God. The composition of your morale fiber is irrelevant because you could never be 
> good enough to work your way into heaven. No matter how good you were, someone would 
> be better. 
 
	Damn that's egotistical and just plain wrong.  I live the good 
life asked for by your God, but because I never heard of him, I'm gonna 
die?  Sounds like some toddler on a temper tantrum that wants his own way 
or else.  Actually, that's a good way to view most any god. 
 
> Instead of Drawing a line somewhere, it is "Whosoever will may come." 
> Salvation is easy. 
 
	Doesn't sound like it. 
 
> Working at being a good Christian is where we fall short.  As for 
> Aborigines and the like, Jesus commands us to go forth into all the world and preach 
> the gospel. That is why there are missionaries. 
 
	Oh yeah.  Them.  The ones that point a gun at your head and say, 
"Pray to our gods."  The ones that kiddnapped children to put in 
missionary schools and then rapped the children's knuckles when they spoke 
their own language.  The ones that destroyed the works of the Mayan (and 
many other Central American cultures) civilization because they couldn't 
understand the writing and think it must be a sign from Satan.  Those 
missionaries?  No thank you. 
 
	Oh.  And why would I switch to your god when mine is telling me 
that I better stay put or go to hell?  Pick an egotist on a power trip, 
any egotist on a power trip. 
 
> > No, Biblical *scholars* teach this.  The Bible itself takes contradictary 
> > stances, on account that it is a compilation of several different authors 
> > who didn't confer with each other (sorta like the DC Universe). 
> 
> The Bible says that it has one author.  Different men who were all inspired by the 
> Holy Spirit. 
 
	If you believe that tripe your more ignorant than I thought.  The 
bible is a mix of sources from many different *men* (and a few women). 
Other men took the parts they want and left out the parts they didn't to 
further their own beliefs.  The writings were put down at different times 
for different purposes, eventually they achieved a source of mythic 
standing. 
 
> If you know of a contradiction in the Bible, cite the books and verses 
> please. 
 
	You want an example?  Read Genesis for starters.  Two seperate and 
different accounts of the creation of the world.  (Taken from two earlier 
sources, of course).  How about the Gospels?  Jesus' life is different, in 
much tone and feel, in each.  There's more. 
 
> The word church is from the greek eclesia which translates into "called out 
> assembly". God is everywhere but he expects you to be in church, being called out 
> from the world, when it is time. "My church is wherever I am" is false philosophy 
> taught be people who would rather be fishing than in church. You should check all 
> the references in the Old and New Testements about the House of God before blowing 
> off church to crush villains. 
 
 
	OK.  Quote them.  And find a way to disregard the refrences that 
say otherwise. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: "Robert" <baron@stlnet.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 04:04:59 -0600 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
  
> << That Perez cover will be a hard one to top though!>> 
>  
>   I take it you haven't seen the covers to SA:CoH or Sengoku, then. We 
don't 
> plan on acquiring "mediocre" art for a 5th Ed. book, Michael. ;) 
>  
>   That brings up another question: What kind of illo would you folks like 
to 
> see for the cover? A collage of different scenes? A comic-booky sort of 
illo 
> (usually a fight scene)?  
>  
If you want the truth? I'd like to see Alex Ross do a cover and some 
interior done by George Perz, Adam Hughes, and John Byrne. I don't know if 
there is enough MONEY to get them to do this, but I think at least an Alex 
Ross cover would be worth the cost in terms of marketing. He's hot and and 
an INCREDIBLY talented artist. 
Oh well, its a nice pipe dream. 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:12:09 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Champions  5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Eric Pawtowski wrote: 
>  
> Small change that I've always liked: allowing Acrobatics to be used 
> as complementary to Breakfall.  Makes Acrobatics much more useful. 
>  
>    Eric 
 
   In my games, I always give players the option of taking the 'classic' 
Acrobatics skill from 3rd ed.  10 pts. base for DEX roll, which includes 
all breakfall applications and can provide a +2 to dodge.  Wait - was 
that official, or was that a house rule my early GMs had?  I remember 
that +2 "Acrobatic Dodge" was standard in all my early/mid-80s Champs 
games... 
 
   Anyway, I like at least the option of taking 'full' acrobatics 
instead of having to buy both Acro AND B-fall skills. 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:17:11 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Curt Hicks wrote: 
>  
>  From: "Michael Nunn" <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
> > 
> >    I am going to go out on a limb here, but I don't want to see a "Whole 
> > New Champions" in 5th edition.  In fact I don't really want to see a 
> > 5th edition, unless the main thrust of it is addition and improvement 
> > over 4th ed. 
> > 
> >    I like 4th edition, no it's not perfect, but what I don't like I 
> > modify, and what I don't like and what Vox doesn't like could be 
> > completely different.  One of the great things about Hero is that is 
> > is so easy to gear for your own game. 
> > 
> > Just my humble opinion... 
> > 
> > Michael 
>  
> I agree completely.  I think a lot of people believe that a '5th Edition' 
> will fix their *particular* complaints with the rules.  You don't need a 
> '5th Edition' to do that, just say "in my game, this is how its going to be." 
>  
> Curt Hicks 
 
   In fact, that very dynamic is why there are so many "House Rules" and 
campaign-specific Champions web pages out there.  Which I think is a 
GOOD thing.  Some things are widely considered to need fixing or 
cleaning up, but of course, on many issues, the 'fix' is something 
different for everyone with an opinion. 
 
   BTW, if I ever get off my *ss and do it, I'll have my own House Rules 
page up someday.  If I'm lucky, sometime in January '98.... 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:38:49 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
GoldRushG wrote: 
 
>   That brings up another question: What kind of illo would you folks like to 
> see for the cover? A collage of different scenes? A comic-booky sort of illo 
> (usually a fight scene)? 
 
   I really like the Perez cover, but am not opposed to a change.  But 
the flavor should definitely be the same.  Superheroes in action, 
probably one large 'splash page' scene. 
   Or possibly a 5 or 6 panel comic-book page including a splash or 
dialog and a splash of action.... 
  
>   One other note. Keep in mind that, primarily because of financial 
> considerations, we are looking at printing the Hero System rules book 
> separately, with Champions being a genre book. Champions would have the super 
> power rules in there, as well as a *much* better treatment of the genre, 
> examples, no "official universe" inside (rather examples and notes on creating 
> several different types, etc., but the Hero System "core" rules would be in 
> the Hero System rules book. 
 
   Great!  Some would look at it as forcing a gamer to buy two books, 
but it makes sense to seperate core rules from genre-specific stuff.  On 
the other hand, it would make it vital to have extensive and precise 
examples in the rulebook to be SURE to cover all genres; super-heroes 
using powers raise different questions than gunslingers using guns. (at 
least they often do). 
>  
>   I realize this may not be a popular decision, and I'm willing to hear well 
> reasoned discussion for or against the idea. But please consider that 
> reprinting the BBB as it is now would cost *us* a lot of money, and the retail 
> price would likely be $40 or more (and that for a softcover with no 
> software!). We want folks to buy it, and the only way to keep the prices 
> reasonable is to limit some of the content. This seems the most logical way to 
> do that. 
 
   One danger is that genre books may have to be larger to be sure to 
answer all possible questions and uncertainties about rules and 
powers/skills.  It is also important to cover as completely as possible 
all available powers/skills with sample/introductory characters to give 
new players (and GMs) something concrete to refer to, helping clarify 
examples.  Actually the comic pages in C:TNM with 'notes' on the 
Champions using their abilities was a good idea. 
   I also think that checking with the list or appropriate newsgroup for 
which areas need further explaination and whether proposed examples are 
effective or not would be a good idea. 
 
>   In addition, future genre books would be published like the "new" Champions 
> book, and we may even be able to publish revisions of older genre books 
> (Fantasy Hero, anyone?). 
>  
>   Mark @ GRG 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 03:02:35 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: It's Not Easy Being Green 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
>    I was over at a friend's house last night, and she was watching the 
> "Frosty the Snowman" special on CBS. 
 
    <Green Diatribe Ensues> 
 
>    Have compassion. 
>    Green power. 
>    Thank you. 
 
   Actually, there is an organization already perfectly fit for their 
cause.  They should ask for representation from (wince) GreenPeace. 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
 
From: "Jeff O'Connor" <jtoc@msn.com> 
Cc: <champ-l@omg.org> 
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!] 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 04:16:42 -0700 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Kevin: 
 
I don't give one whit about your fundamentalist views where this mailing 
list is concerned.  I think it is just peachy that you have reconciled your 
particular religious world-view with your hobbies, but frankly I really 
don't give a damn about the finer points of the former.  Please keep your 
religious views out of this mailing list - while they have their place, the 
Champions mailing list really isn't it. 
 
Thank You. 
 
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: Kevin J. McClain <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> 
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: Sunday, December 14, 1997 12:13 AM 
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!] 
 
 
> 
> 
>Vox Ludator! wrote: 
> 
>> > The only sin that sends you to Hell is unbelief. If you don't believe 
>> > that Jesus died for your sins then there is no hope for you. 
>> 
>> Frankly, this is just as offensive a belief as claiming that RPGs and 
card 
>> games are the work of the devil.  I cannot reconcile any belief system 
that 
>> says: 
>>         a) There is a benevolent supreme intelligence 
>>         b) He/she/it will damn a Bushman or Aborigine or Tibetan or (you 
>>         get the idea) who has led a benevolent existence on the 
>>         technicality that they didn't HAVE a "local New Testament 
Church". 
>> 
>> The two concepts just aren't consistent.  If salvation/damnation 
(assuming 
>> they exist) is not dependent on the actual composition of one's moral 
fiber 
>> but merely some arbitrary pledge of allegiance, I'd say there's no hope 
for GOD. 
> 
>You must remember that as a Fundamental Christian I beleieve in Jesus 
Christ. Not 
>Buddah, Vishnu nor any other deities. Jesus saves by grace, the unmerited 
favor of 
>God. The composition of your morale fiber is irrelevant because you could 
never be 
>good enough to work your way into heaven. No matter how good you were, 
someone would 
>be better. Instead of Drawing a line somewhere, it is "Whosoever will may 
come." 
>Salvation is easy. Working at being a good Christian is where we fall 
short.  As for 
>Aborigines and the like, Jesus commands us to go forth into all the world 
and preach 
>the gospel. That is why there are missionaries. 
> 
>> 
>> 
>> > Thirdly, the Bible teaches that there are only two forces at work here 
>> > on Earth, God and Satan. 
>> 
>> No, Biblical *scholars* teach this.  The Bible itself takes contradictary 
>> stances, on account that it is a compilation of several different authors 
>> who didn't confer with each other (sorta like the DC Universe). 
> 
>The Bible says that it has one author.  Different men who were all inspired 
by the 
>Holy Spirit. If you know of a contradiction in the Bible, cite the books 
and verses 
>please. 
> 
>> 
>> 
>> > You see how ridiculous it can become. The Christian life is supposed to 
>> > be balanced. You cannot remove yourself from the world physically but 
you 
>> > are supposed to spiritually. It helps to limit your exposure to 
non-Godly 
>> > things. If you consider yourself a Christian, and you play games, have 
>> > fun. But don't allow Magic or Champions or anything else become your 
God. 
>> > Have you ever missed church to play a game? 
>> 
>> Ah, here we have the whole quandary: if God is everywhere (at least, 
>> his/her/its awareness is everywhere, on account of being omniscient), 
then 
>> isn't "church" wherever and however I choose to worship him?  Maybe it's 
>> okay if we just say a grace before breaking out the decks. :] 
> 
>The word church is from the greek eclesia which translates into "called out 
>assembly". God is everywhere but he expects you to be in church, being 
called out 
>from the world, when it is time. "My church is wherever I am" is false 
philosophy 
>taught be people who would rather be fishing than in church. You should 
check all 
>the references in the Old and New Testements about the House of God before 
blowing 
>off church to crush villains. 
> 
>Love in Christ 
>Kev 
> 
> 
 
 
 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 03:22:46 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Villian groups 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Michael Nunn wrote; 
 
> >>Humor me on this one! 
> >> 
> >> I like to construct scenarios with touches of current events and or people 
> >> twisted enough to fit into a four color genre. Has anyone put together a 
> >> villain group based on the Spice Girls? You have five different 
> >> personalities that could be used to create five different villains banded 
> >> together to promote "Girl Power." 
 
> >       Neat idea. But I'd probably do it as a corporate Hero Team 
> >designed to promote a particular British record label by claiming to 
> >be a dumbed up version of feminism. 
 
> If you really wanted them to be like the SG's only 2 would actually have 
> super powers the others would just look good and help out... 
 
   Okay, now, are you being bold by claiming that three o' the S-Girls 
have no talent? 
 
   ...or that two of them _do_? 
 
-Capt. Spith (who - so kill me - LIKES the Spice Girls.  But then I'm a 
guy, aren't I?) 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 03:42:11 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Robert wrote: 
 
> If you want the truth? I'd like to see Alex Ross do a cover and some 
> interior done by George Perz, Adam Hughes, and John Byrne. I don't know if 
> there is enough MONEY to get them to do this, but I think at least an Alex 
> Ross cover would be worth the cost in terms of marketing. He's hot and and 
> an INCREDIBLY talented artist. 
> Oh well, its a nice pipe dream. 
 
   Oh, GAWD, yes!  If Alex Ross did the cover, I'd pay $40 for it even 
if I thought the entire contents were CRAP! 
 
   .... 
 
   Oh dear... have I just shown my soft underbelly to the predator? 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 05:27:31 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!] 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 04:16 AM 12/14/97 -0700, Jeff O'Connor wrote: 
>Kevin: 
> 
>I don't give one whit about your fundamentalist views where this mailing 
>list is concerned.  I think it is just peachy that you have reconciled your 
>particular religious world-view with your hobbies, but frankly I really 
>don't give a damn about the finer points of the former.  Please keep your 
>religious views out of this mailing list - while they have their place, the 
>Champions mailing list really isn't it. 
 
   Much of the same should be directed at Vox... 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:31:46 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: RE: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Michael Sprague wrote: 
 
> >  But no interpretation of it that I've ever seen before you has ever 
> > allowed non-proportional use, nor the use of the larger Power without the 
> > use of the Linked Power.  Those are *extremely* important balancers for 
> > this Limitation. 
>  
> Then you haven't been around this argument long enough ... this is the  
> first time I think I have read about forcing the powers to be proportional  
> (though granted, I skipped the last two times Linked was debated). 
 
I've read it a couple of times before, and I think it's always been 
implicit. Without the proportionality rule, Linked is no Limitation at all 
(and if you play that multiple Powers can't be used to attack together by 
default, Linked on attack Powers becomes strictly advantageous). You're 
quite correct that nothing in the BBB supports this, but it's a fairly 
necessary house rule IMO. 
 
OTOH, the idea that the non-Limited Power can't be used unless the Linked 
Power is in use also isn't supported by the BBB, nor do I see it is 
particularly fundamental. (I happen to play that way myself, but I don't 
think Linked is totally broken if you play by the book in this regard.) 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:35:57 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Captain Spith wrote: 
 
>    I really like the Perez cover, but am not opposed to a change.  But 
> the flavor should definitely be the same.  Superheroes in action, 
> probably one large 'splash page' scene. 
>    Or possibly a 5 or 6 panel comic-book page including a splash or 
> dialog and a splash of action.... 
 
On the cover? Ick. Don't think I'd like the look of that much. The splash 
page thing is definitely the way to go, though. 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:40:56 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
>   One other note. Keep in mind that, primarily because of financial 
> considerations, we are looking at printing the Hero System rules book 
> separately, with Champions being a genre book. Champions would have the super 
> power rules in there, as well as a *much* better treatment of the genre, 
 
Wait... what "super power rules"? The Powers section is pretty fundamental 
to the Hero System; you need it for pretty much any genre except for 100% 
Realistic. 
 
From: LLWatts <LLWatts@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:44:18 EST 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Hi everyone!  Newbie-on-the-list alert!! 
  
>>>>>> 
 >   What would you like to see in our books (layout-wise)? 
 > Do you care what it looks like at all, as long as it's readable? 
 > 
 	I think layout can make a big diferent in conveying a 'feeling' 
 for a document. For instance, look at V&V. The art of Jeff Dee has long 
 been part of why V&V holds it's cult following. 
 	An even better example is WW's stuff. The art and layout in that 
 helped bring in a whole new type of gamer. For good or ill. :) 
 >>>>>> 
 
Just don't get as carried away with the hunt for weird fonts as WW has.  I had 
to put a couple of their books back on the shelf because the intro section 
gave me eyestrain. 
 
>>>>>>  
 >   What about side-bars (assuming they're actually used for something 
besides 
 > light grayscale artwork)? 
 > 
 	Sidebars are nice if used to reference additional side info on 
 a topic.  
 >>>>>> 
 
If a topic will fit in _one_ sidebar, fine.  If it takes three or four 
sidebars to cover a topic, put it all in one place. 
  
Leah 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:45:35 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Atmospheric FTL 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
 
> I know I'm in a minority on this, but I've never liked the construction of 
> Teleportation for rapid movement. 
 
> The first sentence of the description of teleport reads "A character with 
> this Movement Power can disappear from one point and appear at another, 
> without traveling in between."  While I'm not a strict adherent to the 
> "first sentence rule" (I use Summon to create things out of thin air, for 
> example) the intent of this power seems fairly clear. Using it for rapid 
> movement brings up lots of logical problems. Why should a superfast 
> character have to have his or her destination memorized or in sight?  
 
Yes, this is a problem. Allowing an Advantage on Teleport to allow blind 
teleporting is possibly a good idea. 
 
> Why does a Teleportation Suppression field stop the character from 
> moving?  
 
Now, to me this is evidence that "Suppress Teleport" is a nonsensical 
construction, rather than evidence against using Teleport for this 
purpose. Like Adjustment Powers, Suppress should always, always, always be 
bought as affecting a special effect rather than a game mechanic. 
 
> While I'm on the topic of FTL and Teleport, I wish there were a way to 
> interface the two. It's very difficult to build an interplanetary 
> teleporter, and certainly more costly than it's worth. 
 
Wait - why can't "interplanetary teleporter" just be a special effect for 
FTL? 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 05:49:36 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:17 PM 12/13/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< That Perez cover will be a hard one to top though!>> 
> 
>  I take it you haven't seen the covers to SA:CoH or Sengoku, then. We don't 
>plan on acquiring "mediocre" art for a 5th Ed. book, Michael. ;) 
 
   Leave in some mediocre art -- especially if it's Cris Cloutier's, or 
otherwise suggestive of the Golden Age Era (which was characteristically 
mediocre, but has a special place in the hearts of most if not all 
superhero lovers). 
 
>  That brings up another question: What kind of illo would you folks like to 
>see for the cover? A collage of different scenes? A comic-booky sort of illo 
>(usually a fight scene)?  
 
   Actually, I'd like something similar to the cover of Champions Universe, 
but with just a little more intensity. 
 
>  One other note. Keep in mind that, primarily because of financial 
>considerations, we are looking at printing the Hero System rules book 
>separately, with Champions being a genre book. Champions would have the super 
>power rules in there, as well as a *much* better treatment of the genre, 
>examples, no "official universe" inside (rather examples and notes on 
creating 
>several different types, etc., but the Hero System "core" rules would be in 
>the Hero System rules book. 
> 
>  I realize this may not be a popular decision, and I'm willing to hear well 
>reasoned discussion for or against the idea. But please consider that 
>reprinting the BBB as it is now would cost *us* a lot of money, and the 
retail 
>price would likely be $40 or more (and that for a softcover with no 
>software!). We want folks to buy it, and the only way to keep the prices 
>reasonable is to limit some of the content. This seems the most logical 
way to 
>do that. 
 
   Actually, I think you'll find this to be a very popular decision. 
 
>  In addition, future genre books would be published like the "new" Champions 
>book, and we may even be able to publish revisions of older genre books 
>(Fantasy Hero, anyone?). 
 
   Yet another very popular decision.   :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:52:46 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, mcallahan wrote: 
 
> >And of course, there's always the Quasar problem... he's a full-fledged 
> >Avenger, has power rivalling the Silver Surfer's, and is immune to mental 
> >manipulation (if the Overmind couldn't touch him, I don't think the 
> >X-mentalists have any chance). You could clone each of the X-Men off 5 
> >times and have them gang-pile him, and I still don't think they'd have 
> >much chance. 
>  
> Hey, anybody remember a young lady named Phoenix (Jean or Rachel take 
> your pick) I think she could take Quasar. 
 
You're mistaken. Quasar has fought and beaten Rachel w/ Phoenix Force. Not 
his easiest fight ever, but probably not his hardest either. 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 05:52:49 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Slipperiness 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:49 PM 12/13/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>I'm all for the 5th ed. In addition to the various suggestions people have 
>already made, I hope it includes either a "slipperiness" power or a 
>revised Change Environment that can make an icy surface with combat 
>effects. (My pet peeve.)  
 
   While assembling TUSV, I found a need to define some Power to do this. 
I settled on a Minor Transform to change regular ground into slippery 
ground.  The SFX could be ice, an oil slick, or something else.  (I even 
have a sample vehicle with an icy slick device.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:02:40 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!] 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>Kevin: 
> 
>I don't give one whit about your fundamentalist views where this mailing 
>list is concerned.  I think it is just peachy that you have reconciled your 
>particular religious world-view with your hobbies, but frankly I really 
>don't give a damn about the finer points of the former.  Please keep your 
>religious views out of this mailing list - while they have their place, the 
>Champions mailing list really isn't it. 
> 
>Thank You. 
 
Ah, you forgot to include Tim Gilberg in on this reproach. He was just as 
guilty of (off-topically) expousing a religious belief and arguing the finer 
points of theology. Reprimand only one person and you pretty much take 
sides, neh? 
 
And if anyone's wondering, I'm a Christian...but don't think that theology 
should be argued on this list. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:03:51 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
> >I see no support for this in the rules. If a Power has "Extra Time - 1 
> >Phase", it means just that... it takes an _extra_ phase. 
 
> I think *my* confusion may have stemmed from "Extra Time - *Full* Phase" 
> which is how it is actually stated (emphasis mine). 
 
Yeah, that is odd. Possibly there was originally a "Half Phase" level on 
the chart as well? (It would make sense to have it at the -1/4 level, but 
it would cause confusion when combined with the "half value" option of 
Extra Time.) 
 
> This led *me* (and possibly Mr. Gilberg) to believe that this simply 
> extended the time of activation, not that it was an additive. 
 
The problem with this is that it makes no sense to me that turning a 
1/2-Phase action into a Full Phase action should be the same level of 
Limitation as turning a 0-Phase action into a Full Phase action. 
 
(Except "Full Phase action" is misleading, since you explicitly can do 
other things during the activation time.) 
 
> In the text description of the Limitation, it mentions a power that 
> takes a month (not a month-and-a-phase) to activate. 
 
Well, at that level the distinction is pretty much irrelevant. "Month and 
a phase" would just sound silly. 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:06:38 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:06 AM 12/14/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< Hmmm, any plans to go overseas? Australia, maybe? *g* I expect it'd  
>be quite a stretch. .. . .>> 
> 
>  Not much of a stretch at all. If an Australian distributor would pout in an 
>order for products, we'd fill it. 
 
   Would he have to pout?  Wouldn't a friendly smile be just as effective, 
if not more so?   ;-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:10:02 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
> >But of course, this was back when she has a villain. When she actually 
> >joined the X-Men something had to be done because let's face it - somebody 
> >who can handle Thor would also mop up most of the X-Men's villains 
> >singlehandedly in pretty short order. Since joining the heroes, I can only 
> >think of a few times when she's tried to use her absorption ability on an 
> >adversary - and offhand, I can't think of even a single time when it 
> >actually _worked_. 
> > 
> Spider-Man Team-Up (or was it Marvel Team-Up?) #100 (I think).  Spider-man 
> and the X-men v. Juggernaut and Black Tom (who had part of the Juggernaut 
> power.  Rogue absorbed the Juggy power from Caine, and went berserk as she 
> was taken over by his memories.  Granted, that may not be "worked" by your 
> definition...  <g> 
 
It isn't. Given that Rogue can be overwhelmed by a mental midget like 
Juggernaut and given that Thor, when his personality was absorbed by the 
Destroyer and even the freaking Demogorge, was able to assert control, I 
have difficulty believing she could successfully handle Thor. 
 
> Wasn't there a time where she absorbed Colossus, Nightcrawler, and Kitty 
> Pryde's powers to beat some big baddy?  Was that the Brood? 
 
That's why I explicitly referred to her trying to absorb an _adversary_. 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:15:03 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Champions  5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Rook wrote: 
 
> 1.    Add an advantage called "Advantaged" which would be the exact 
> counterpart to "Limited". 
 
Bad idea IMO. There's no need for it given an adequate set of Powers and 
Advantages. 
 
> 7.    Steal a few of the advatages from GURPS, like Richocet. 
 
What would that be used for? 
 
> 12.    Present options for both versions of linked. As well as a 'Combine' 
> advantage, or at least a suggestion on why not to have such an advantage 
> and how to otherwise achieve said special effect (ie: multipower slots 
> or whatever.) 
 
The system is considerably better balanced if you make "combinable" the 
default, IMO. 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:15:45 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:12 PM 12/13/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>>>>> "AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes: 
> 
>AJ> Actually, it does; its just that the target of an aid ordinarily 
>AJ> _wants_ to be hit, and thus pending extreme circumstances the attack 
>AJ> roll can be assumed to be successful. 
> 
>An attack roll is part of the process of making an attack.  If you do not 
>roll it, you have not made an attack. 
 
   Hold on a sec... what about breaking out of an Entangle?  I was being 
mostly facetious before about the sky having a DCV, but a character using 
STR or an attack Power (if you should pardon the expression) to break out 
of an Entangle is a case of an attack that doesn't require an Attack Roll. 
   I'd have to search for it, but I think attacking someone who is 
completely immobile at point-blank range also can be done without an Attack 
Roll. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:15:53 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!] 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
> And if anyone's wondering, I'm a Christian...but don't think that theology 
> should be argued on this list. 
 
The same here.  The HML is for Hero System discussion (and to a lesser 
extent superhero and other RPG genre off topic discussions), not theology. 
There are plent of newsgroups out there to join if you want that. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:26:02 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Metahuman Rights (was: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is  
  EVIL!!!]) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:15 PM 12/13/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>At 12:30 PM 12/13/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>   It seems to me that this whole thread is even more pathetic and 
>>irrelavent than if my post on "green people's rights" had been serious. 
>>   We've been over this topic before, people.  Far too often.  It only gets 
>>acrimonious (in fact, it started that way this time), and it has 
>>*absolutely nothing* to do with Champions or the Hero System.  (Whereas my 
>>"Green Rights" post could be taken by someone with a humorous bent, or with 
>>a thought toward creating an alien rights' group in his campaign.) 
>> 
>Okay.  : ) 
>Can we talk about that, then?  I wasn't thinking "aliens" so much (there 
>are none in my game world), but I was thinking of metahuman (or mutant) 
>rights groups.  I have "Equal Rights for the Genetically Different" but I 
>haven't come up with anything specific for them.  I know that at least one 
>of the high-profile metahumans is supporting them, but I don't really have 
>an agenda for them, besides opposing them Metahuman Registration Bill as 
>unconstitutional.  Any suggestions? 
 
   You could kinda take a cue from my satiric diatribe, and have them do a 
lot of the same stuff that real-world minority-rights groups do.  They 
would bring attention to negative media stereotyping, lobby legislators for 
metahuman-rights legislation, and stuff like that.  Legislation they'd 
support would include Equal Opportunity laws, special investigations of 
liability insurance ripoffs, and in some cases treatment as a "special 
minority." 
   Metahuman rights could even be represented by different groups with 
different degrees of extremism.  A more moderate group would seek nothing 
more than equanimity, while a more radical group would chant slogans and 
demand recognition and protection for their "alternative lifestyle." 
   (I tend to use mutants as an allegory for racial discrimination, and 
paranormals in general as an allegory for gay rights, at least where these 
kinds of political issues are concerned.) 
 
>ps - Bob, that Green thing...  are you green?  I ain't buyin' no book 
>written by no Greeny! 
 
   Only during the springtime, and even then only if it's dry and windy... 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:36:43 -0500 
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org> 
Subject: CHAR: KARZA DRONES 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> > Exactly how?  I would probably give a very light Lim.  Maybe a -1/2 at 
> > most.  Could you illuminate me on this? 
>  
> Basically, the character is getting a cost break on something that isn't 
> very limiting.  Sure, you can't recover or move during those phases, but 
> (usually) you can still attack.  Not a real big limit. 
>  
> Now, if a pilot had a 3 SPD with +2 SPD only while flying a plane (so he 
> could use an F-15 to it fullest qualities, that would be different. 
 
It seems to me this is more a question of determining the right Limiation 
value; it sounds you might well consider it not a limitation in some 
circumstances where some people would. 
 
Geoff Speare 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:43:01 -0600 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net 
Organization: None 
Subject: Incomplete Character Rules 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I have never seen this. Where can I find it? 
 
 
 
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
What do you mean she is dead? All I did was shoot her in the head with 
my 4d6 RKA? How can she be dead? 
			Actually said by one of my players. 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:49:38 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV and Energy Conversions 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:39 AM 12/14/97 -0500, Len Carpenter wrote: 
>>Say, you wouldn't happen to have handy the conversions for joules into, 
>>say, degrees of heat or ampres of electricity and such, would you? 
>> 
>So Bob Greenwade asks.  Gimme a minute while I dig out my old college 
>physics text. 
 
   [Lots of beautiful hard work snipped] 
 
   Thanks, Len.  I'm sorry I gave the impression that I wanted it for TUSV; 
this information is really more fitting for The Ultimate Energy Projector. 
   But I will try to see that the information sees a source location 
somewhere (probably my website, if nothing else). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:54:30 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Villian groups 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:44 AM 12/14/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote: 
>>  
>> can anyone out there spell 'gestalt'?  
>> 
> Hmm. 
>There's one for the 'fifth edition'. A 'Combine' Power. 
>Two or more people with this power can combine into a greater whole. 
> 
>Unless it's better just doing in reverse with multiform and duplication... 
 
   This will be in TUSV.  How could it not be? 
   I took a cue from Robot Warriors, and worked it up as a variant on 
Multiform, where each of the individual forms (having together more points 
than the Combined form) pay an equal share of the cost. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:56:46 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Yet Another Power Problem... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:34 PM 12/13/97 -0800, Lizard wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>Hash: SHA1 
> 
>Reading through some of my TSR stuff, I came upon an interesting  
>spell which I thought would be good to convert to Fantasy Hero.  
>However, I'm having trouble working it out, and it's a broad enough  
>concept that a general mechanic is needed. 
> 
>The spell, basically, creates a mouth with sharp pointy teeth on an  
>inanimate object, most usually a bag or sack. Thief reaches into bag,  
>gets hand chomped (call it a 1d6 HKA). How to do this as a spell? 
> 
>Focus? Not really:The spell must be cast on an object, but the focus  
>is a handful of teeth. The bag isn't really a focus for the casting,  
>just a target. 
 
   The teeth aren't the Focus; I don't think I'd use the Focus limitation 
at all (unless that's a Material component for the Spell). 
 
>Transform? The all-purpose catch all. I'd like to avoid it. 
> 
>Independant? No, the spell expires after one bite, and the caster can  
>re-cast it multiple times without trouble. 
 
   You are correct in saying no to these. 
 
>Basically, I'm looking for a mechanic that gives a third party a one- 
>shot or charge-shot use of a power, with the actual mechanic for  
>creating that power as a seperate thing. That is, I need to gesture,  
>incant, and hold some teeth to give the 'bite' power to a bag, but  
>the bag doesn't need to gesture, incant, etc, to use it -- and the  
>'power' goes away under a set of conditions. Further, I don't think  
>such a temporary usage should require permenant expenditure of  
>character points with each use of the power-granting-power.  
> 
>It looks like some kind of 'usable by others' is being called for  
>here, with one 'power' to grant the other power. Isn't there  
>something in Almanac I about this? 
 
   Try RKA, No Range, Trigger. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 07:06:44 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:37 AM 12/14/97 -0800, Michael Sprague wrote: 
>>  But no interpretation of it that I've ever seen before you has ever 
>> allowed non-proportional use, nor the use of the larger Power without the 
>> use of the Linked Power.  Those are *extremely* important balancers for 
>> this Limitation. 
> 
>Then you haven't been around this argument long enough ... this is the  
>first time I think I have read about forcing the powers to be proportional  
>(though granted, I skipped the last two times Linked was debated).  There  
>is _nothing_ in the book to even imply that the Linked powers must be used  
>proportionally.  I'm not saying it's a bad idea, it's not ... just that  
>since it's not in the book, and thus would be a house ruling. 
 
   Basically what you have then, if I'm remembering your arguments 
correctly, is a Limitation that forces you to do no more than activate 
another Power and spend at least 1 END on it, even if you don't actually 
use it, if you want to use the Limited Power, all for a -1/2 Limitation -- 
the same as if the Power with the Limitation cost 2X END to use. 
   Is it just me, or is there something wrong with this picture? 
 
>The concept that the larger Power must also use the Linked Power is pure  
>bull, and had nothing to do with balancing the Limitation.  If you applied  
>the Limitation to both powers, then I could see your point.  But since you  
>don't I just can't agree. 
 
   But you *can't* apply the Limitation to the larger Power; that is quite 
explicitly stated. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:40:36 -0700 
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
Subject: Lesson in humility (and irony) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
A bit a background then the situation. 
 
The GM ran (at my request) a major plot for my character a while ago. My 
character was a Martial Artist with 'Darkforce' powers (reminescent of 
Marvel's). It was played that she was killed, brought back, got 
possessed by the intelligence in her powers, went psycho, got depowered, 
put in jail, pardoned and is now a strait MA superhero. I GMed the two 
sessions where Black Cat (my HERO) was psycho. I built a pretty 
obnoxious version of her, with GM approval, to be a challange for the 
team. All this was about 6-8 months ago. There was also, a bit later, a 
plot involving a clone of one of the heros. 
 
 
Last nights adventure... We were investigation a series of murders, 
obviously Super; killing normals. A number of the powers could be 
similar to those that the team had. The final murder, the person was 
killed in a very distinctive way (the life was sucked out, and left a 
dessicated shell). This has been seen before, when Cat was psycho (she 
killed someone that way then). We then thought that someone cloned Cat 
with genetic material prior to when she was depowered. The team 
(consisting of 6 heroes) go investigate. Two of them are dropped in 
seconds. We get out of there, reconsider and go back in. Again by 
segment three half the group had been nuetrilized. Then we got lucky, 
and got in a few good shots, and had one of the nastiest fights we had 
ever had (it gave us a harder time than the low end Destroyer). It turns 
out the darkforce that my character had, had gotten it's own ability to 
move and act, rather than doing through a person.  
 
After the fight I asked about the monstrosity the GM built and was 
informed "I didn't built it, you did. I just used your writeup of the 
psycho Cat and added a few things for Special Effects."  oops. 
 
Now, you tell me, is it fair to use a that thing  I built (a little, no 
a lot munchkin) back on us. 8) 
--  
-Mhoram 
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 
 two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:45:43 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> >  I take it you haven't seen the covers to SA:CoH or Sengoku, then. We don't 
> >plan on acquiring "mediocre" art for a 5th Ed. book, Michael. ;) 
>  
>    Leave in some mediocre art -- especially if it's Cris Cloutier's, or 
> otherwise suggestive of the Golden Age Era (which was characteristically 
> mediocre, but has a special place in the hearts of most if not all 
> superhero lovers). 
 
I would not call Chris Cloutier's art mediocre.  It is certainly a lot 
more dynamic and creative than Mark Williams stuff ever was (that was 
mediocre), and if spends some time on the peice it can turn out excellent. 
I still say that Madame Moonlight has one of the best costume designs in 
all of the Champions books. 
 
I think Chris's only real drawback is his stuff may be a touch too 
'cartoony' for most books. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net> 
Subject: RE: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:37:01 -0800 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>> At 08:29 PM 12/10/97 -0800, Michael Sprague wrote: 
>> As far as other's comments go about making you use them linked powers 
>> proportionately, that's potentially a very good idea for a house rule  
... 
>> so long as one is not forced to use the linked power when one uses the 
>> non-limited power it is linked to. 
> 
>   Now, hold on there.  That's exactly what the Linked Limitation *does.* 
> It says so right there in the description. 
 
Well, then you have a different set of rules than I do.  Mine (the 4th  
ed.BBB and the soft cover) say no such thing, and it's a real stretch to  
imply it. 
 
>   If a larger power "Does Not Work Under Certain Circumstances," then any 
> Power that's Linked to it should have it as well.  I can think of no  
reason 
> not to. 
 
Then think a little harder.  There are plenty of reasons why the large  
power might not work but the power linked to it could ... if it weren't  
linked.  Your simply combining two different powers here, and each can have  
it's own SFX, Advantages and Limitations.  I can see no reason why the  
_must_ be the same. 
 
>  But no interpretation of it that I've ever seen before you has ever 
> allowed non-proportional use, nor the use of the larger Power without the 
> use of the Linked Power.  Those are *extremely* important balancers for 
> this Limitation. 
 
Then you haven't been around this argument long enough ... this is the  
first time I think I have read about forcing the powers to be proportional  
(though granted, I skipped the last two times Linked was debated).  There  
is _nothing_ in the book to even imply that the Linked powers must be used  
proportionally.  I'm not saying it's a bad idea, it's not ... just that  
since it's not in the book, and thus would be a house ruling. 
 
The concept that the larger Power must also use the Linked Power is pure  
bull, and had nothing to do with balancing the Limitation.  If you applied  
the Limitation to both powers, then I could see your point.  But since you  
don't I just can't agree. 
 
				~ Mike 
 
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net> 
Subject: RE: Cardboard Heroes 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:51:45 -0800 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I would rather get them as a separate product ... especially if they were  
the common villains found in the Enemies books. 
 
On a different note, I was thinking about making some of these myself, and  
putting them somewhere on the net for everyone to use.  Obviously I could  
not use existing heroes without permission.  I even bought a software  
package that looks like it would be good for this (Poser 2, by Fractal  
Design), but due to time constraints (job, house and 2 year old) I have not  
had the time to set down and figure out how to use this software. 
 
-----Original Message----- 
From:	GoldRushG [SMTP:GoldRushG@aol.com] 
Sent:	Saturday, December 13, 1997 12:18 PM 
To:	champ-l@omg.org 
Subject:	Cardboard Heroes 
 
  Since it seems that the majority of folks (onthis list, anyway) would  
like 
to see more cardboard minis, let me ask you this: Would you be willing to  
pay 
an extra $2 for a book that had them included? 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: "Jeff O'Connor" <jtoc@msn.com> 
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!] 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:52:59 -0700 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
John and Ron: 
 
I'm not taking sides, nor do I care what your religious persuasion is.  I 
think we're in agreement on what the purpose of this list is, so let's leave 
it at that please. 
 
Thank You. 
 
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> 
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: Sunday, December 14, 1997 7:21 AM 
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!] 
 
 
>>Kevin: 
>> 
>>I don't give one whit about your fundamentalist views where this mailing 
>>list is concerned.  I think it is just peachy that you have reconciled 
your 
>>particular religious world-view with your hobbies, but frankly I really 
>>don't give a damn about the finer points of the former.  Please keep your 
>>religious views out of this mailing list - while they have their place, 
the 
>>Champions mailing list really isn't it. 
>> 
>>Thank You. 
> 
>Ah, you forgot to include Tim Gilberg in on this reproach. He was just as 
>guilty of (off-topically) expousing a religious belief and arguing the 
finer 
>points of theology. Reprimand only one person and you pretty much take 
>sides, neh? 
> 
>And if anyone's wondering, I'm a Christian...but don't think that theology 
>should be argued on this list. 
> 
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
-- 
>"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the 
power 
>to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
-- 
>John D. Prins 
>jprins@interhop.net 
> 
> 
 
 
 
 
From: "Jeff O'Connor" <jtoc@msn.com> 
Subject: Re: Lesson in humility (and irony) 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:59:25 -0700 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
LIfe isn't always fair.  Or maybe I should say GMs aren't. 
 
To be honest, though, I don't see where he is out of line - it seems he just 
took an idea and ran with it, munchkin or not.  GMs do that all the time. 
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: Sunday, December 14, 1997 9:10 AM 
Subject: Lesson in humility (and irony) 
 
 
>A bit a background then the situation. 
> 
>The GM ran (at my request) a major plot for my character a while ago. My 
>character was a Martial Artist with 'Darkforce' powers (reminescent of 
>Marvel's). It was played that she was killed, brought back, got 
>possessed by the intelligence in her powers, went psycho, got depowered, 
>put in jail, pardoned and is now a strait MA superhero. I GMed the two 
>sessions where Black Cat (my HERO) was psycho. I built a pretty 
>obnoxious version of her, with GM approval, to be a challange for the 
>team. All this was about 6-8 months ago. There was also, a bit later, a 
>plot involving a clone of one of the heros. 
> 
> 
>Last nights adventure... We were investigation a series of murders, 
>obviously Super; killing normals. A number of the powers could be 
>similar to those that the team had. The final murder, the person was 
>killed in a very distinctive way (the life was sucked out, and left a 
>dessicated shell). This has been seen before, when Cat was psycho (she 
>killed someone that way then). We then thought that someone cloned Cat 
>with genetic material prior to when she was depowered. The team 
>(consisting of 6 heroes) go investigate. Two of them are dropped in 
>seconds. We get out of there, reconsider and go back in. Again by 
>segment three half the group had been nuetrilized. Then we got lucky, 
>and got in a few good shots, and had one of the nastiest fights we had 
>ever had (it gave us a harder time than the low end Destroyer). It turns 
>out the darkforce that my character had, had gotten it's own ability to 
>move and act, rather than doing through a person. 
> 
>After the fight I asked about the monstrosity the GM built and was 
>informed "I didn't built it, you did. I just used your writeup of the 
>psycho Cat and added a few things for Special Effects."  oops. 
> 
>Now, you tell me, is it fair to use a that thing  I built (a little, no 
>a lot munchkin) back on us. 8) 
>-- 
>-Mhoram 
>Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 
> two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright 
> 
 
 
 
 
From: "Jeff O'Connor" <jtoc@msn.com> 
Subject: Fatale Five 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:06:14 -0700 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
No - but I do have a group called the Fatale (as in Fem Fatale) Five that 
runs around my campaign setting.  They're five super-powered womyn with 
great bodies and bad attitudes who like to put the more mysogenistic 
villians AND heroes in their place.  This, and their tendancy to play Robin 
Hood for women writ large has put them on both sides of the law. 
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: John Stefanski <jstefanski@internetMCI.com> 
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: Saturday, December 13, 1997 3:02 PM 
Subject: Villian groups 
 
 
>Humor me on this one! 
> 
>I like to construct scenarios with touches of current events and or people 
>twisted enough to fit into a four color genre. Has anyone put together a 
>villain group based on the Spice Girls? You have five different 
>personalities that could be used to create five different villains banded 
>together to promote "Girl Power." 
> 
>JS 
> 
>================ 
>JS Stefanski 
>There can BE only one. 
>You'll be dead. 
>Hey, let's build a raft. 
>We need a spelunker. 
>================ 
> 
> 
 
 
 
 
From: "Jeff O'Connor" <jtoc@msn.com> 
Cc: <champ-l@omg.org> 
Subject: Re: Villian groups 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:10:35 -0700 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On a SLIGHTLY more serious note - that response is actually good.  Faux 
heroes and villians are great plot devices - generally excellent hooks for 
conspiracy stories. 
 
Personally, I think the Spice Girls are conspiring to make Milli Vanilli and 
the New Kids on the Block look like real bands by comparison - just my 
opinion, though. 
 
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: Sunday, December 14, 1997 12:46 AM 
Subject: Re: Villian groups 
 
 
> Humor me on this one! 
>>> 
>>> I like to construct scenarios with touches of current events and or 
people 
>>> twisted enough to fit into a four color genre. Has anyone put together a 
>>> villain group based on the Spice Girls? You have five different 
>>> personalities that could be used to create five different villains 
banded 
>>> together to promote "Girl Power." 
>>> 
>> Neat idea. But I'd probably do it as a corporate Hero Team 
>>designed to promote a particular British record label by claiming to 
>>be a dumbed up version of feminism. 
> 
>If you really wanted them to be like the SG's only 2 would actually have 
>super powers the others would just look good and help out... 
>Rising Force Publications 
>Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine... 
>http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
> 
> 
 
 
 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:11:18 +0000 
From: Chris Brecken <Christopher.Brecken@sunderland.ac.uk> 
Subject: Back from the Dead 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Hi there, I once had a charcter in another system with a power i would 
like to model in champs. 
 
It went somthing along these lines... 
 
Anytime the charcter died, a fresh clone would be released from the 
vats, and programmed with the memories of the previous clone and sent on 
his way. 
Only one clone could be in exsistance at a time due to quirk, that ment 
that if two did exsist, then due to the mental link that would 
exsist,they would both go mad very quickly... 
every so often the current clone would drop into the facilities, to have 
a backup of him memories made to imprint a new cloe if it became 
neccessary... 
In effect, every time the charcter died, all he lost was the memories 
between the last recording and his death. 
 
Any idears on how to model this in champs... 
 
Chris 
--  
"Don't put your trust in foolish promises sworn. 
 Nor cryptic message scrawled upon every wall" 
 
  Tony Clarkin, 
  The Spirit 
 
X-Sender: naneiden@iswest.com 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:09:33 -0800 
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:06 AM 12/14/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< The other comment is "No more hard covers"  In my group we have 5 
copies of 
>the BBB all 5 have fallen apart. >> 
> 
>  That was the fault f the printer. The reprinting of the BBB in "Champions 
>Deluxe" has a much higher quality stitch, "textbook"-style binding. Mine has 
>not fallen apart. Actually, none of the 1,000 or so copies I have have fallen 
>apart. <LOL> No complaints from distributors or customers, either. 
 
Yeah, there was a bad batch of books printed way back. But from what I 
heard at the time, if you sent your book back to ICE, they replaced it, 
which seems fair. I bought mine when it first came out, but mine hasn't 
fallen apart, so I don't think all of them were poorly done. 
 
-Nic 
 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:15:10 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editio 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> Have you seen the Incomplete rules.... they change the way Vehicles, 
> Bases, Automatons, and Computers work.  Those are pretty much minor 
> sidelines to hero 4th, hardly 'most of 4th ed.'  In fact, what they 
> do is make the fairly wierd, cobbled-together systems used for those 
> things work with the standard character build system. 
> 
> They also open up the possiblity of a lot of different character 
> types... 
 
	Yeah, I saw them.  But I felt the feel wasn't quite right for my 
campaign.  They are a nice set of side-rules, maybe even worthy of 
HSA-type of unnofficial rules. 
 
> Oh, or are you just talking about 'extensive changes' in general? 
> Sorry... 
 
	Basically.  Keep things as close to 4th ed as possible.  No 
changes to characteristic costs.  Powers that are changed better do so for 
a damn good reason.  Keep things the way they are with more definition, 
more explination, and more examples. 
 
> I think the level of change between 3rd and 4th could be tollerated 
> (though that level of change isn't actualy nescisary, it's just 
> a few problems that need to be ironed out (like linked)  :) 
 
 
	Perhaps, to avoid the firestorm.  It should be presented, and 
explained, both ways.  I'd personally like to see a change in the value of 
the disadvantage with different levels for attack and non-attack powers. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:19:13 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> Huh?  How would using two attacks at the same time change thier 
> F/X?  I mean, if Iron Man fires Repulsors and Unibeam at the 
> same time, they're still Repulsors and it's still the Unibeam, 
> they not sudenly Unipulsors or Mutant-powered eyebeams or 
> anything... 
 
	But as you are attacking with one attack roll the mix of powers 
has become only one.  There must be a gestalt SFX. 
 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:23:28 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> I guess you didn't notice that the Multipower in question 
> doesn't end up costing much more (or even slightly less - 
> a whole 1 pt less in the example I posted) 
> than just buying two powers straight up... 
 
 
	I noticed, but that's not actually the point.  MPs are designed to 
give a savings for related powers, even if it doesn't say that in 
their description.  If a character wants an EB, a flash, and a metapower 
EB+flash in a MP, no problem.  I'd say it works. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net> 
Subject: RE: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:24:43 -0800 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>>  But no interpretation of it that I've ever seen before you has ever 
>>> allowed non-proportional use, nor the use of the larger Power without  
the 
>>> use of the Linked Power.  Those are *extremely* important balancers for 
>>> this Limitation. 
>> 
>>Then you haven't been around this argument long enough ... this is the 
>>first time I think I have read about forcing the powers to be  
proportional 
>>(though granted, I skipped the last two times Linked was debated).  There  
>>is _nothing_ in the book to even imply that the Linked powers must be  
used 
>>proportionally.  I'm not saying it's a bad idea, it's not ... just that 
>>since it's not in the book, and thus would be a house ruling. 
> 
>   Basically what you have then, if I'm remembering your arguments 
> correctly, is a Limitation that forces you to do no more than activate 
> another Power and spend at least 1 END on it, even if you don't actually 
> use it, if you want to use the Limited Power, all for a -1/2 Limitation  
-- 
> the same as if the Power with the Limitation cost 2X END to use. 
>   Is it just me, or is there something wrong with this picture? 
 
I am not disagreeing with your conclusions (most of them, that is), I am  
just saying that there is nothing in the _book_ that even implies that the  
Powers must be proportional. I am seriously thinking about updating my  
house rules to state that the "Linked Power" must be used in the same  
proportion as the "Large power." 
 
The reverse is not the case, however, since the larger power can still be  
used on it's own. 
 
>>The concept that the larger Power must also use the Linked Power is pure 
>>bull, and had nothing to do with balancing the Limitation.  If you  
applied 
>>the Limitation to both powers, then I could see your point.  But since  
you 
>>don't I just can't agree. 
> 
>   But you *can't* apply the Limitation to the larger Power; that is quite 
>explicitly stated. 
 
Exactly!!  And that is the _only_ thing it says about the larger power!!  
 It says nothing about the Larger Power being tied to the smaller power.  
 It says nothing about the larger Power being unusable without using the  
smaller power.  The only reason this is even mentioned in the rules is that  
it would be an even worse "points crock" if you allowed a large Power to be  
linked to a small power, so that the large power received the points  
advantage. 
 
The only way it really makes sense to say "both powers always have to be  
used together" would be if _both_ powers received the Limitation, and that  
is against the rules. 
 
- - - 
 
The bottom line though, is how well does it play.  Yes, the GM should take  
a careful look at anything with Linked attached to it, but if this is such  
a terrible thing, why don't I seem more abuse than I do?  We have two  
serious point's munchkins in our group, and they rarely use Linked.  We  
have not found it to be a problem. 
 
For that matter, we do allow powers to be "stacked" into one attack, for  
the reasons Rat puts forth.  We have never found it to be abusive.  Most  
people can't do it because the END is prohibitive.  It is usually only used  
for "final strikes," where the character knows he is going down. 
 
As a player, I can play this anyway that has been put forth, with the  
exception of saying that the "Larger Power" can't be used unless you use  
the "Linked Power." 
 
			~ Mike 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:32:03 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!] 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> Ah, you forgot to include Tim Gilberg in on this reproach. He was just as 
> guilty of (off-topically) expousing a religious belief and arguing the finer 
> points of theology. Reprimand only one person and you pretty much take 
> sides, neh? 
 
	Yeah, I went off.  But I don't like some smug a-hole with 
sickening moral nuggets of how I'm going to hell because I don't believe 
what some religious leaders culled from a mythological work. 
 
> 
> And if anyone's wondering, I'm a Christian...but don't think that theology 
> should be argued on this list. 
 
 
	True.  But remember that the trying-to-be-a-missionary christian 
started the whole damn thing.  I personally like some of the philosophies 
forwarded in the bible -- particularly those of the later part of Jeremiah 
and Jesus' philosophy from the Sermon on the Mount.  I thought Paul messed 
up a pretty good thing, however. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:43:28 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Champions  5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> > 12.    Present options for both versions of linked. As well as a 'Combine' 
> > advantage, or at least a suggestion on why not to have such an advantage 
> > and how to otherwise achieve said special effect (ie: multipower slots 
> > or whatever.) 
> 
> The system is considerably better balanced if you make "combinable" the 
> default, IMO. 
 
 
	Fine and dandy.  However, as you said, that's your opinion.  The 
other side doesn't agree at all. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:32:49 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Extra Time on a Triggered Power 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-- ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net wrote: 
>  
> One of the characters in my campaign is using an INT Drain which 
> takes 5 minutes to prepare, but it is also built with a Trigger, so 
> that it can be delivered in combat; essentially, she has to inject 
> a potion into someone for the drug to take effect. 
>  
> Is anybody else as bugged by this as I am? I don't think that the 
> Extra Time should be worth the full limitation in these 
> circumstances.  How do you handle injectible drugs in your campaigns? 
 
	That is the primary use of trigger.  A player sets up a power,  
HOWEVER LONG IT TAKES.  All endurance is paid at this time.  At some  
later time, an event triggers the power, in this case injecting a drug.   
She must still make an attack role and overcome any other limitations  
that the power may have, presumably bare skin or whatever to inject  
through. 
 
	Of course, once the power is expended, the start up time must be  
followed.  It is not specified that the player can only have one  
triggered power set at one time.  That would have to be up to GM's to  
decide how many "charges" can be set up at once. 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:37:59 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Lesson in humility (and irony) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Curtis Gibson wrote: 
 
> After the fight I asked about the monstrosity the GM built and was 
> informed "I didn't built it, you did. I just used your writeup of the 
> psycho Cat and added a few things for Special Effects."  oops. 
>  
> Now, you tell me, is it fair to use a that thing  I built (a little, no 
> a lot munchkin) back on us. 8) 
 
   Not only was it fair, it was commendable!  First of all, you had GM 
approval to run the character yourself in the first place; not even all 
NPCs would have GM OK as PCs.  Secondly, and most importantly, it was 
fine storytelling, as he took an element from the game and developed it 
further.  This is what a lot the less imaginative games lack.  Some 
games will have an adventure, run it through, then never hear of it 
again; bringing back characters, events and reprecussions from the past 
help players feel more connected to their world, and lets them know that 
their prescence makes a difference.  Okay, not always a positive one.... 
   In my game, one of the PCs was recruited by Slug for the Elder Worm 
(from Classic Enemies) when the player wanted to stop playing him.  
Soon, the Mighty Mosquito (his ex-PC - no, it's not a 'silly' game, just 
a silly moniker) will be leading a renewed attack against the current 
team for the glory of the Elder Worm.  Actually, the player is looking 
forward to it.... 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:54:31 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: RE: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:06 AM 12/14/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>At 08:37 AM 12/14/97 -0800, Michael Sprague wrote: 
>>>  But no interpretation of it that I've ever seen before you has ever 
>>> allowed non-proportional use, nor the use of the larger Power without the 
>>> use of the Linked Power.  Those are *extremely* important balancers for 
>>> this Limitation. 
>> 
>>Then you haven't been around this argument long enough ... this is the  
>>first time I think I have read about forcing the powers to be proportional  
>>(though granted, I skipped the last two times Linked was debated).  There  
>>is _nothing_ in the book to even imply that the Linked powers must be used  
>>proportionally.  I'm not saying it's a bad idea, it's not ... just that  
>>since it's not in the book, and thus would be a house ruling. 
> 
>   Basically what you have then, if I'm remembering your arguments 
>correctly, is a Limitation that forces you to do no more than activate 
>another Power and spend at least 1 END on it, even if you don't actually 
>use it, if you want to use the Limited Power, all for a -1/2 Limitation -- 
>the same as if the Power with the Limitation cost 2X END to use. 
>   Is it just me, or is there something wrong with this picture? 
> 
Yep.  That's the same thing I noticed when he first said it. 
 
>>The concept that the larger Power must also use the Linked Power is pure  
>>bull, and had nothing to do with balancing the Limitation.  If you applied  
>>the Limitation to both powers, then I could see your point.  But since you  
>>don't I just can't agree. 
> 
>   But you *can't* apply the Limitation to the larger Power; that is quite 
>explicitly stated. 
> 
Man, you're on the ball.  I feel so much better that you agree with me. 
This is the main reasont that I treat Linked as the "ultra-power" 
combination of the two powers, and allow the -1/4 Limitation for "may only 
be used with X Power." 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:57:31 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Attack Rolls(Was Link: yadda yadda) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    Hold on a sec... what about breaking out of an Entangle?  I was being 
> mostly facetious before about the sky having a DCV, but a character using 
> STR or an attack Power (if you should pardon the expression) to break out 
> of an Entangle is a case of an attack that doesn't require an Attack Roll. 
>    I'd have to search for it, but I think attacking someone who is 
> completely immobile at point-blank range also can be done without an Attack 
> Roll. 
 
   I'm pretty sure that a completely immobile target still requires an 
attack roll, but is at DCV 0.  Usually, 'gimme' attacks like that in my 
game are handled real quickly; attacker rolls 1D6, then if it's not a 
'6' (thus the attack roll would not be 18), it's a hit. 
 
   But Entangles are In Contact with the character already.  Making an 
attack roll would be like making an attack roll in order to touch your 
clothes to activate Instant Change or something.  If you are Already In 
Contact with something, you don't have to roll an attack roll.  OK, 
maybe if you had to haul back your fist to strike someone you were 
holding with your other hand; then roll at 0 DCV, but to simply exert 
STR on something that you are already in contact with needs no roll.  
Breaking out of a Hold (re; BBB page 154) requires no attack roll, 
simply STR vs. STR contest.  An Entangly - in this respect - acts just 
as a grab, using Def+Body as the Entangle's 'BODY done by STR'. 
 
-- 
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:11:54 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Slipperiness 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
> At 03:49 PM 12/13/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
> >I'm all for the 5th ed. In addition to the various suggestions people have 
> >already made, I hope it includes either a "slipperiness" power or a 
> >revised Change Environment that can make an icy surface with combat 
> >effects. (My pet peeve.) 
>  
>    While assembling TUSV, I found a need to define some Power to do this. 
> I settled on a Minor Transform to change regular ground into slippery 
> ground.  The SFX could be ice, an oil slick, or something else.  (I even 
> have a sample vehicle with an icy slick device.) 
 
   Of course, this still requires a definition of what slick ground 
does.  I recall a dabate on what mechanics would/could be used to 
represent slipperyness, but don't remember if there were any popular 
results. 
   I feel that the machanics of such a thing are much more to the point 
than the mechanism;  once the resulting machanics are known, crafting 
the power to implement them is relatively simple. 
   I state openly and unabashedly at this time that I have NO idea how 
to properly define slipperyness myself.... 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:13:49 -0800 
From: James Jandebeur <jimalj@best.com> 
Subject: Re: Incomplete Rules (was 5t 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
That's true! 
 
> Post comments to the list or email jimalj@best.com  (he won't 
> mind, really). 
 
JAJ, Rules Philosopher 
 
 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:13:49 -0800 
From: James Jandebeur <jimalj@best.com> 
Subject: Re: Incomplete Rules (was 5t 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
That's true! 
 
> Post comments to the list or email jimalj@best.com  (he won't 
> mind, really). 
 
JAJ, Rules Philosopher 
 
 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:17:31 -0800 
From: James Jandebeur <jimalj@best.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editio 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  r >  Yes please. That cover needs a facelift. 
>  r > 
 
You mean the one done by George Perez?   With Seeker jumping to attack Dr. 
Destroyer (presumably without effect and a lot of pain on Seeker's side)? 
Why does it need to be changed? 
 
JAJ, Rules Philosopher 
 
 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:17:31 -0800 
From: James Jandebeur <jimalj@best.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editio 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  r >  Yes please. That cover needs a facelift. 
>  r > 
 
You mean the one done by George Perez?   With Seeker jumping to attack Dr. 
Destroyer (presumably without effect and a lot of pain on Seeker's side)? 
Why does it need to be changed? 
 
JAJ, Rules Philosopher 
 
 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:31:14 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Yet Another Power Problem... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
bobby farris wrote: 
>  
> Lizard wrote: 
> > 
> > Reading through some of my TSR stuff, I came upon an interesting 
> > spell which I thought would be good to convert to Fantasy Hero. 
> > However, I'm having trouble working it out, and it's a broad enough 
> > concept that a general mechanic is needed. 
> > 
> > The spell, basically, creates a mouth with sharp pointy teeth on an 
> > inanimate object, most usually a bag or sack. Thief reaches into bag, 
> > gets hand chomped (call it a 1d6 HKA). How to do this as a spell? 
>  
>         I don't know how others would do it, but I would require the mage to 
> cast the spell on the item, say a small pouch. 
>         The small pouch would then become a magical item with the following: 
>         1d6 HKA Damage shield, Trigger: When someone other than owner reaches 
> into the pouch. 1 Charge, Hard to recover (requires re-casting of 
> spell). 
 
	Close.  You don't need the damage shield.  The 1D6 HKA is an attack power.   
The trigger stops it from firing until, well, triggered, probarly "placing hand in  
sack without saying don't".  The one charge limitation doesn't apply because that is  
what the trigger advantage does.  Once triggered, the attack (spell) doesn't exist  
anymore. 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:32:53 -0800 
From: James Jandebeur <jimalj@best.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions  5th Editi 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> The trouble is, HA is NOT the normal-damage equivalent of HKA. There's no 
> need for such a power (a normal damage power that lets you add STR), because 
> the paradigm shifts for normal damage -- STR is not added to HA, HA is added 
> to STR, and that's the way it should be: /STR/ is the equivalent of HKA (you 
> can use combat maneuvers with just STR, for example). 
 
I don't agree.  We currently have a power that allows you to translate your 
strength into an energy killing attack, why not one that allows the same with 
normal attacks?  Why allow characters to do more with killing damage than with 
normal damage?  We should either flush HKA, or change HA.  STR can't be the 
equivalent of HKA, as HKA is tacked on top of it.  That's what is being talked 
about with HA, and why not? 
 
> >     Though it cannot be 'spread' in the manner of an Energy 
> >Blast, an HA can be manipulated to improve OCV at the price of 
> >damage.  Each 1d6 of damage sacrificed gives a +1 OCV.  Since an 
> >HA - even when not focused - is assumed to be somewhat separate 
> >from the character using it, it can be used to Block an 
> >opponent's attack. 
> 
> This is where I have the real problem: exactly why are HA's "assumed to be 
> somewhat separate from the character using it"?  The two most common SFX 
> besides weapons (i.e. Focus) that I've seen HA used for in the past are 
> superspeed punches and superdense skin.  Neither is separate from the 
> character in any fashion, and it seems like a far easier approach to buy OCV 
> bonuses with combat levels in addition to HA damage than to box them 
> together and force players to limit them out. 
 
Iron Fist is a prime example of someone that the HA at least appears to be 
seperate from himself.  Certainly, the Iron Fist power protects his hands from 
damage while he is using it.  However, Opal needs to work on the phrasing, as 
all that is being said is that the OCV can also be used to block, this being 
open to special effect.  Notice, also, that Iron Fist is an example of a 
character who's hand attack transforms his strength and skill into energy 
damage.  You could argue that this is just a no range energy blast, but then, 
why not just dump HKA as well and use no range RKA's?  And where does Opal say 
that you can't buy levels, if that's what you want? 
 
JAJ, Rules Philosopher 
 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:32:53 -0800 
From: James Jandebeur <jimalj@best.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions  5th Editi 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> The trouble is, HA is NOT the normal-damage equivalent of HKA. There's no 
> need for such a power (a normal damage power that lets you add STR), because 
> the paradigm shifts for normal damage -- STR is not added to HA, HA is added 
> to STR, and that's the way it should be: /STR/ is the equivalent of HKA (you 
> can use combat maneuvers with just STR, for example). 
 
I don't agree.  We currently have a power that allows you to translate your 
strength into an energy killing attack, why not one that allows the same with 
normal attacks?  Why allow characters to do more with killing damage than with 
normal damage?  We should either flush HKA, or change HA.  STR can't be the 
equivalent of HKA, as HKA is tacked on top of it.  That's what is being talked 
about with HA, and why not? 
 
> >     Though it cannot be 'spread' in the manner of an Energy 
> >Blast, an HA can be manipulated to improve OCV at the price of 
> >damage.  Each 1d6 of damage sacrificed gives a +1 OCV.  Since an 
> >HA - even when not focused - is assumed to be somewhat separate 
> >from the character using it, it can be used to Block an 
> >opponent's attack. 
> 
> This is where I have the real problem: exactly why are HA's "assumed to be 
> somewhat separate from the character using it"?  The two most common SFX 
> besides weapons (i.e. Focus) that I've seen HA used for in the past are 
> superspeed punches and superdense skin.  Neither is separate from the 
> character in any fashion, and it seems like a far easier approach to buy OCV 
> bonuses with combat levels in addition to HA damage than to box them 
> together and force players to limit them out. 
 
Iron Fist is a prime example of someone that the HA at least appears to be 
seperate from himself.  Certainly, the Iron Fist power protects his hands from 
damage while he is using it.  However, Opal needs to work on the phrasing, as 
all that is being said is that the OCV can also be used to block, this being 
open to special effect.  Notice, also, that Iron Fist is an example of a 
character who's hand attack transforms his strength and skill into energy 
damage.  You could argue that this is just a no range energy blast, but then, 
why not just dump HKA as well and use no range RKA's?  And where does Opal say 
that you can't buy levels, if that's what you want? 
 
JAJ, Rules Philosopher 
 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Layout of 5th edition 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:35:55 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  >   What would you like to see in our books (layout-wise)? 
>  > Do you care what it looks like at all, as long as it's readable? 
>  > 
>  	I think layout can make a big diferent in conveying a 'feeling' 
>  	An even better example is WW's stuff. The art and layout in that 
>  helped bring in a whole new type of gamer. For good or ill. :) 
>  >>>>>> 
>  
> Just don't get as carried away with the hunt for weird fonts as WW has.  I had 
> to put a couple of their books back on the shelf because the intro section 
> gave me eyestrain. 
> 
	Hey, I didn't say 'I' LIKED the look they had. :) But you have to 
admit that it certainly helped to multiply the number of 'goth' gamers 
out there by a few hundred fold. For good or ill. 
	And good example of layout helping to sell a product to a key 
audiance. But whenever you focus on any key audiance, by nessesity you 
turn off other audiances. Such as us (myself and you). It's just a question 
of which is more beneficial to you. Addmittidly WW made the right choice. If 
they'd tried to sell to us mainstream gamers they would have have just 
ended up as one of many games on people's shelves. Instead they have a 
fanatic cult following that just won't stop growing. 
 
	So I'd say layout could make or break a new edition of Champions. 
 
You'd definatly want to get a certain mood going, and stick with it. In 
all of art, layout, and text. 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:39:54 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Extra Time (was Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:03 AM 12/14/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>> >I see no support for this in the rules. If a Power has "Extra Time - 1 
>> >Phase", it means just that... it takes an _extra_ phase. 
> 
>> I think *my* confusion may have stemmed from "Extra Time - *Full* Phase" 
>> which is how it is actually stated (emphasis mine). 
> 
>Yeah, that is odd. Possibly there was originally a "Half Phase" level on 
>the chart as well? (It would make sense to have it at the -1/4 level, but 
>it would cause confusion when combined with the "half value" option of 
>Extra Time.) 
> 
Champions III (1984), pg. 48.  "New Power Limitations," "Activation Time: 
This is a Limitation on all non-offensive Powers that normally take a zero 
phase action to turn on.  A Power with Activation Time takes a half phase 
or even a full phase to turn on.  Once the Power is on it doesn't take the 
character time to keep it activated, so long as the character pays the END 
for the Power it will stay on. 
 
[Power takes half phase to activate	+1/4] 
[Power takes 1 full phase to activate	+1/2] 
 
<example snipped for space> 
 
A character can also take an offensive Power that normally takes a half 
phase and have it take a full phase to throw.  The offensive Power gets a 
+1/4 Limitation if it takes a full phase to throw." 
 
Now, this is all I found in my "Revised Edition" books, Champions, 
Champions II and Champions III.  I suppose you will all draw your own 
conclusions, but... 
 
1) Maybe Extra Time *isn't* additional? 
 
2) Maybe "throwing" an offensive power *does* take a 1/2 Phase? 
 
I don't know...  think about it.  And, Rat, if you find that other 
Limitation from "Gadgets!" or whereever, could you please post it, too? 
Thanks. 
 
>> This led *me* (and possibly Mr. Gilberg) to believe that this simply 
>> extended the time of activation, not that it was an additive. 
> 
>The problem with this is that it makes no sense to me that turning a 
>1/2-Phase action into a Full Phase action should be the same level of 
>Limitation as turning a 0-Phase action into a Full Phase action. 
> 
See the above, older rule. 
 
>(Except "Full Phase action" is misleading, since you explicitly can do 
>other things during the activation time.) 
> 
Well, when does a Phase end, exactly?  When your next Phase begins? 
 
>> In the text description of the Limitation, it mentions a power that 
>> takes a month (not a month-and-a-phase) to activate. 
> 
>Well, at that level the distinction is pretty much irrelevant. "Month and 
>a phase" would just sound silly. 
> 
Oh, okay... heaven forbid the rules sound silly if they're clear...  lol 
Well, It would still take you the month, and (if it were an offensive 
Power) you'd have to have an action to throw it.  If it *isn't* a 
month-and-a-*half*-Phase (I mispoke, initially), then you'd get that free 
action... : )  Yeah, it's nitpicky. 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:45:28 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:10 AM 12/14/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>> Spider-Man Team-Up (or was it Marvel Team-Up?) #100 (I think).  Spider-man 
>> and the X-men v. Juggernaut and Black Tom (who had part of the Juggernaut 
>> power.  Rogue absorbed the Juggy power from Caine, and went berserk as she 
>> was taken over by his memories.  Granted, that may not be "worked" by your 
>> definition...  <g> 
> 
>It isn't. Given that Rogue can be overwhelmed by a mental midget like 
>Juggernaut and given that Thor, when his personality was absorbed by the 
>Destroyer and even the freaking Demogorge, was able to assert control, I 
>have difficulty believing she could successfully handle Thor. 
> 
Well, I was under the delusion (I suppose) that it wouldn't be Thor's 
ability to "assert control," it would simply be the personality clash.  It 
may still depend upon strength of personality, but still...  she's not 
absorbing their souls.  (AFAIK) 
 
>> Wasn't there a time where she absorbed Colossus, Nightcrawler, and Kitty 
>> Pryde's powers to beat some big baddy?  Was that the Brood? 
> 
>That's why I explicitly referred to her trying to absorb an _adversary_. 
> 
Again, I didn't think this made a difference.  She's severely damaged 
people just by casual contact (that was part of her origin, wasn't it? 
First kiss w/ boyfriend, and he went into a coma). 
 
So... we've got a VPP (specialized Mimic Pool), maybe a Transfer (Always 
On?), and maybe even a BODY Drain (Always On), all of which must have skin 
to skin.  I think the Marvel game gave her 1 minute of the abilities for 
every 1 second contact.  (I'm not positive.) 
 
This being said...  Thor could probably just take her down w/ Mjolnir 
before she gets to him, especially if he remembers her powers from the last 
time.  I'm *pretty* sure she wouldn't be able to take a hit from the hammer 
(or absorb *it*, either... : D ) 
 
- Jerry 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Adjustment Powers in 5th edition (Re: Atmospheric FTL) 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:48:20 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> Yes, this is a problem. Allowing an Advantage on Teleport to allow blind 
> teleporting is possibly a good idea. 
>  
> > Why does a Teleportation Suppression field stop the character from 
> > moving?  
>  
> Now, to me this is evidence that "Suppress Teleport" is a nonsensical 
> construction, rather than evidence against using Teleport for this 
> purpose. Like Adjustment Powers, Suppress should always, always, always be 
> bought as affecting a special effect rather than a game mechanic. 
> 
	I agree. Perhaps in a 5th edition adjustment powers could 
be changed to have the default be to choose a special effect, rather than 
a specific power. 
	There's few cases where any other choice would make sense. 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 97 21:53:06  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Special Offers to the list 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:04:48 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
>  Would the list lurkers here be in favor of occasional special offers on Hero 
>products if we were to do that? Something akin to "No shipping on orders" or a 
>slight discount? We're considering starting seasonal or holiday-themed sales 
>and I wanted to get feedback from folks here on the idea. 
> 
>  Mark @ GRG 
> 
I don't think I have ever once objected to a discount on something I was considering  
buying anyway. 
 
-=>John D. 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Slipperiness 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:54:03 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
> At 03:49 PM 12/13/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
> >I'm all for the 5th ed. In addition to the various suggestions people have 
> >already made, I hope it includes either a "slipperiness" power or a 
> >revised Change Environment that can make an icy surface with combat 
> >effects. (My pet peeve.)  
>  
>    While assembling TUSV, I found a need to define some Power to do this. 
> I settled on a Minor Transform to change regular ground into slippery 
> ground.  The SFX could be ice, an oil slick, or something else.  (I even 
> have a sample vehicle with an icy slick device.) 
 
	Transform to do it reads like a 'hack' though. Since transform 
requires overcoming the targets Body. 
	How much body does thin air have? Or a sidewalk? 
 
It really does need a new power. A sort of 'reverse entangle'. 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 97 21:56:10  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:04:55 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
>  One "simplified" way to handle Acrobatics in combat is to have the player 
>make an Acrobatics Skill Roll for his PC, and use the Complementary Skill roll 
>rules. I.e., for every 2 full points he makes the roll by, give him +1 Combat 
>Level to be applied to OCV or DCV (player's choice) for that Action/Phase. 
>What do you think? 
> 
>  Mark @ GRG 
> 
 
But I still want the palyer to describe to me in some detail what amazing acrobatic feat  
he's performing to get this bonus.  I had a player once who would (when we were using  
miniatures) move his figure through all of themoves his martial artist was performing -  
entertaining as heck, especially with the sound effects. 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:57:14 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!] 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>	Yeah, I went off.  But I don't like some smug a-hole with 
>sickening moral nuggets of how I'm going to hell because I don't believe 
>what some religious leaders culled from a mythological work. 
 
Then ignore him. That's the bottom dollar, 100% best thing to do if someone 
'merely' annoys you - especially if it's off topic.  
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions  5th Edition 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:02:21 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
> > 1.    Add an advantage called "Advantaged" which would be the exact 
> > counterpart to "Limited". 
>  
> Bad idea IMO. There's no need for it given an adequate set of Powers and 
> Advantages. 
> 
	But a list is never 'complete'. There's always something missing. 
Such an advatage would make it easier to customize powers, and take such 
a thing away from being a 'house rule advatage' to a 'tournament legal' 
concept. 
 
> > 7.    Steal a few of the advatages from GURPS, like Richocet. 
>  
> What would that be used for? 
> 
	Allows you to bounce an attack off of a surface. For each time you 
buy it, you can bounce one more surface. Or so it reads in GURPS. 
	Sort of a variation of 'Indirect'. 
	GURPS has about twice as many advantages for powers as Champions does. 
Don't have a copy in front of me at the moment, but several of them would 
be nice to add in. 
	Of course having an 'advataged' advantage would make the issue moot. 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 17:04:52 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>This being said...  Thor could probably just take her down w/ Mjolnir 
>before she gets to him, especially if he remembers her powers from the last 
>time. 
 
Hrm. It depends if the writers remember Rogue's "Seventh Sense" (which they 
usually do, making her easier to hit). 
 
>  I'm *pretty* sure she wouldn't be able to take a hit from the hammer 
>(or absorb *it*, either... : D ) 
 
I'll be that Rogue could take a 'casual' hit from Mjolnir (i.e. average, 
everyday Thor tossin' it around to whack baddies). If Thor really winds up 
and cuts loose, though (like he did vs. Wonder Man in the land of the dead 
when Grandmaster was still playing games with Death), it could get messy. 
Thor lets Rogue get close, though, he deserves to lose. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 97 22:10:25  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Back from the Dead 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:11:18 +0000, Chris Brecken wrote: 
 
>Hi there, I once had a charcter in another system with a power i would 
>like to model in champs. 
> 
>It went somthing along these lines... 
> 
>Anytime the charcter died, a fresh clone would be released from the 
>vats, and programmed with the memories of the previous clone and sent on 
>his way. 
>Only one clone could be in exsistance at a time due to quirk, that ment 
>that if two did exsist, then due to the mental link that would 
>exsist,they would both go mad very quickly... 
>every so often the current clone would drop into the facilities, to have 
>a backup of him memories made to imprint a new cloe if it became 
>neccessary... 
>In effect, every time the charcter died, all he lost was the memories 
>between the last recording and his death. 
> 
>Any idears on how to model this in champs... 
> 
>Chris 
 
Duplication, triggered by death.  The new clone (due to restrictions in the duplication  
power) will not be quite as powerful as the original, and, since the power (even with a  
bevy of limitations will still be somewhat expensive) your character probably won't be  
quite up to your campaign averages power-wise.  It's kind of like having saved your  
game a couple of moves back. 
 
The "triggered by death" is wonky enough that you'll have to clear it with your GM. 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Lesson in humility (and irony) 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:10:26 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> segment three half the group had been nuetrilized. Then we got lucky, 
> and got in a few good shots, and had one of the nastiest fights we had 
> ever had (it gave us a harder time than the low end Destroyer). It turns 
> out the darkforce that my character had, had gotten it's own ability to 
> move and act, rather than doing through a person.  
>  
> After the fight I asked about the monstrosity the GM built and was 
> informed "I didn't built it, you did. I just used your writeup of the 
> psycho Cat and added a few things for Special Effects."  oops. 
>  
> Now, you tell me, is it fair to use a that thing  I built (a little, no 
> a lot munchkin) back on us. 8) 
 
	Once you introduced the dark force into the game's universe, it was 
fair game. 
	So I'd say it was not only fair, but quite in genre to have happened. 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 97 22:18:42  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:17:52 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
>  One other note. Keep in mind that, primarily because of financial 
>considerations, we are looking at printing the Hero System rules book 
>separately, with Champions being a genre book. Champions would have the super 
>power rules in there, as well as a *much* better treatment of the genre, 
>examples, no "official universe" inside (rather examples and notes on creating 
>several different types, etc., but the Hero System "core" rules would be in 
>the Hero System rules book. 
 
Would the "super power rules" be only in the Champions-genre book, or repeated in  
the Champions genre book?  (a Hero System rule book without a powers section has  
problems). 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Back from the Dead 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:49:08 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> Hi there, I once had a charcter in another system with a power i would 
> like to model in champs. 
>  
> It went somthing along these lines... 
>  
> Anytime the charcter died, a fresh clone would be released from the 
> vats, and programmed with the memories of the previous clone and sent on 
> his way. 
> Only one clone could be in exsistance at a time due to quirk, that ment 
> that if two did exsist, then due to the mental link that would 
> exsist,they would both go mad very quickly... 
> every so often the current clone would drop into the facilities, to have 
> a backup of him memories made to imprint a new cloe if it became 
> neccessary... 
> In effect, every time the charcter died, all he lost was the memories 
> between the last recording and his death. 
>  
> Any idears on how to model this in champs... 
>  
	In Fuzion this is an advantage to the Regeneration power. Perhaps 
something that will be added to a 5th edition. If you converted the 
Fuzion power back to champs it would be a +1/2 adv to have regeneration 
keep working after death. 
	Mechanon makes an argument for just having it be 'special effect'. 
But few GM's would take that on a player character. 
	I've seen Duplication, one at a time, second one pops out when 
first dies, used for this. Also seen transform and summoning. 
	One idea I've wondered about is could AID be used to heal somebody 
back to life? If so, AID with the Independant lim would do it. 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 17:52:19 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
John Prins wrote: 
>>This being said...  Thor could probably just take her down w/ Mjolnir 
>>before she gets to him, especially if he remembers her powers from the last 
>>time. 
> 
>Hrm. It depends if the writers remember Rogue's "Seventh Sense" (which they 
>usually do, making her easier to hit). 
> 
Oh, yeah, that.  I hadn't ever heard of that before the recent issue I 
picked up... she's hunting for Gambit in (I believe) Antarctica and 
mentions that it's buzzing like crazy... and that it had been inactive for 
a *long* while. 
 
>>  I'm *pretty* sure she wouldn't be able to take a hit from the hammer 
>>(or absorb *it*, either... : D ) 
> 
>I'll be that Rogue could take a 'casual' hit from Mjolnir (i.e. average, 
>everyday Thor tossin' it around to whack baddies). If Thor really winds up 
>and cuts loose, though (like he did vs. Wonder Man in the land of the dead 
>when Grandmaster was still playing games with Death), it could get messy. 
>Thor lets Rogue get close, though, he deserves to lose. 
> 
Eh,  maybe a light hit.   *Maybe* an average hit.  And, yes, if she gets in 
that close w/o *someone* taking her down, Thor should lose. 
 
- Jerry 
 
Does Mjolnir come back every time he throws it?  (Straight EB, OAF)  Or is 
it sometimes caught/deflected? 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:03:47 EST 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Major Mistake. The powers rules have many applications outside of 
Super Powers. I think the Hero system rulebook should be the same size as 
it was in 4th edition.>> 
 
  My bad. I think the plan *was* (or, rather, *is*) to have all the character 
creation rules (including the "powers") in the Hero System Rules book, and 
treat the Champions book as the campaign book (perhaps with a few extra 
goodies, and certainly plenty of clear examples!). 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:03:51 EST 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Right, but this isn't really a new edition then. >> 
 
  It's not? 
 
<< A few minor rules changes mixed with a much flashier and slicker product 
(lots of color, pictures, etc).  They also included tons of new explinations 
and examples>> 
 
  And that does not constitute a new edition?? According to my dictionary (The 
Merriam Webster, (c) 1994), "edition" means: 
 
  1. The form in which a text is published. 
  2. The total number of copies (as of a book) published at one time. 
  3. Version 
 
  When I refer to a "5th Edition," I am talking about the printing and 
presentation of those rules. There will be some minor rules changes (nothing 
to invalidate any 4th ed stuff, though), but it is a 5th Ed. of the book as a 
whole, not just the rules... 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:03:53 EST 
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Probably.  Make sure that are of decent quality and of thick cardboard>> 
 
  Thick cardboard? You wouldn't be able to affix the bottom flaps together. ;) 
Do you really think they need to be thicker than the 10-point cover stock we 
use on our books? Would you be willing to pay even *more* for thicker 
cardstock? 
 
  As far as quality, I'm not letting you off the hook either. I'm more than 
happy to read/listen to feedback from people, but it has to be helpful and 
useful feedback. "Decent quality" doesn't cut the mustard, I'm afraid. I need 
to know what you mean by "decent quality." 
 
  Sorry if I sound like a broken record, but I can't assume to know what you 
folks are thinking when you make general or vague comments. Things like "Make 
books that don't suck" doesn't really help us much. ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:03:58 EST 
Subject: My BBB's falling apart! 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Right down the middle.  The spines of the books from various RPG companies 
just don't seem to hack it anymore...  What do they do... Look for the 
cheapest glue out there on the market? >> 
 
  Sometimes they do (indirectly). You see, when a company prints a book it has 
to way several factors, including their cost to print the book. So logically 
they tend to steer toward the printers whose quotes are less than the more 
expensive printers. That saves the consumer (that's you) money because the 
publisher can keep the retail cost a bit lower. 
 
  However, the down side is that in order to *give* those lower quotes, some 
printers use lower quality materials, from the paper stock, to inks, to glue 
for the binding. It's not something the publisher chooses, like "Hey, use that 
crappy glue there. Will that save me a penny per book on printing and binding 
costs?" <LOL> That's why when the old BBB started falling apart, the folks at 
ICE and Hero were as shocked and displeased as anyone. 
 
  For a long time, ICE had a deal where you coould trade in your old BBB for a 
Champs softcover. Are there still a lot of folks left who don't have 
replacements for their old Champs hardcover? 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:04:04 EST 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
  I wonder how much it would cost us to get an Alex Ross piece for the cover. 
Hmm... 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:04:07 EST 
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
  Just to chime in here briefly (and play devil's advocate)... 
 
  Might I suggest that some of you are adhering quite strictly to the "letter 
of the law" as it applies to the rules? It would be a simple matter for the GM 
to say that a lost limb is the "special effect" of the BODY Drain, and that 
over time (as the BODY returns) it represents the overal healing of the 
victim's body WITHOUT the limb. 
 
  After all, I would not make a PC who had a Phys. Lim. "Missing Left Arm" 
start his character with less than 10 BODY. Would you?  ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:04:09 EST 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< As a house rule, I'd allow the warning shot to not take anytime, but the 
End 
cost or charge would be spent. There are times when following the letter of 
the rules can be a pain.>> 
 
  Why? Can't a PC spread his EB, or use *up to* his max dice in the blast? Why 
not let him use *less*? Say, a 1/2 die or 1 Pip Energy Blast, effectively 
making it a 0 END "show of force?" 
 
  Man, some of you guys are harsh GMs! <LOL> 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:04:10 EST 
Subject: Re: SPD Adjustment, Shapeshift gripes 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Speaking of Shapeshift, should a 5th edition rear its head, I'd like to see 
the matter addressed of a _limited_, defined number of forms. >> 
 
  Your suggestion is noted. 
 
<< For example, as it stands you get 1 form for 10 points, a 'bunch' of forms 
for 20 points, and 'any' form for 30 points. What if I only want 2 forms? >> 
 
  I would suggest (for the time being) that you buy the 20 Pt. "Bunch of 
Forms" power, and then give it a Limitation: Only 2 Forms (-1/2). Does that 
work for you? 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:04:11 EST 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< um. . there are no 'super hero' rules. there's just heroic/superheroic 
characters. >> 
 
  I didn't say super-*hero* rules. I said super *powers* rules. But I think I 
misspoke, in any case. I believe the plan it to include *all* of the character 
creation rules in the Hero System Rule book, and make Champions the genre 
book. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:04:13 EST 
Subject: Re: Kurt's comments 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Well, basically i'd ask us all to recognise the difference between genuine 
heros who can make a difference(even in a gritty setting) and joke-heros who 
don't really stand a chance. . . .. >> 
 
  I don't understand the reference here. Please have pity on me. I read too 
darned many messages and threads a day to remember them all! :D What does this 
have to do with Kurt Busiek's comments about San Angelo? 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:04:14 EST 
Subject: Re: Sidebars 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< personally I dont like sidebars, they are annoying tricks, in my opinion, 
put what you need in the text... I just think you need lots of art in your 
books, preferably by me! LOL >> 
 
  Then make sure to send us some art samples, if you haven't already. I can't 
guarantee you'd be hired to do art for us, but you'll *never* get hired if we 
don't have your art samples to base a decision on. That goes for any and all 
aspiring "Hero product" artists out there. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:04:15 EST 
Cc: sengoku@dryland.mandarin.org 
Subject: Re: Ninjato 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<<, "Ninjato" can be either a specific type of sword, or literally "ninja 
sword", a sword owned and used by a ninja. *Some* ninjato (the second meaning) 
were converted from katana, and many of them had their blades straightened in 
the conversion. >> 
 
  Oh, bull puckey! <LOL> If you were to "straighten" a traditional katana, 
whether by heating and pressure, or whatever, you'd ruin the blade! That's the 
most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time. But just in case I *am* 
wrong, I've forwarded your comments to our Sengoku e-mail list, to which 
several Japanese historians are subscribed. I'd like to get *their* take on 
this, as well. 
 
<< Remember, traditionally, ninja did not have much by way of wealth so they 
could not afford to buy weapons or the materials to make them.  They made do 
with what they could steal or loot. >> 
 
  According to some sources, some ninja were descended from samurai clans, and 
thuis already had access to weapons and such. As far as stealing, of course 
that was the case on occasion. Once the ninja became a stronger "political" 
force, however (ca. 14th-16th centuries, I believe), they had money from their 
patrons to sustain them, not to mention their own artisans and craftsmen. 
 
  And to get back to the original point, the ninjato were straighter (although 
not perfectly straight) because they were easier and less expensive to make 
than the high-quality katana/tachi and wakizashi. Ninja considered the ninjato 
a tool, not a piece of art. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:04:16 EST 
Subject: Re: PART 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Hahaha...  way back from 1990-95, when I ran my "Justice Alliance" game, 
we had PaCT.  The "Paranormal Containment Team" >> 
 
  Then you obviously took advantage of the flux-induced paranormal ability to 
travel in to the future, steal my idea, and travel back in time to "create" it 
yourself! You foul villain! <LOL> 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: Egyptoid <Egyptoid@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:32:11 EST 
Subject: Re: CHAR: KARZA DRONES 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 12/14/97 8:27:01 AM, icepirat@ix.netcom.com wrote: 
>> >   11  CON                 DF: Human, unless examined at Genetic Level 
>> mean, if there's only _one_, very specific, not-likely-to-be-used method of 
>> distinctive a feature as DF: Diabetic or DF: Sterile. It's not even worth a 
>> piddling 5 points, IMHO. 
Whatever. Those who can notice it, can react emotionally to it. 
That's what DF means. 
 
 
>> Excuse me, but how could this be in any way _worth_ points in Champions? 
>Good rant.  I'd like to add my own observation. 
Um, you guys don't read the same supplements I do. Have you never 
seen the magicians who have DF: strong magical aura (only visible to 
other magicians & mana-sensitives? It's only worth 5 points because 
only a limited group can see it in the first place, only a limited 
group can react appropriately.  
 
 
>> >   +2 SPEED, Only for Job related actions or to fire weapon. 
>> Arg. Am I the only one who thinks SPD 'only for X' should be outlawed in 
the 
Yes, you are the only one. See the Hydra in the Hero Bestiary for details. 
 
 
>> >   Ultravision 
>> You mean Ultraviolet Vision? 
>Or how about Ultra-violent vision? 
Yes, me wee droogs, all 3 of em. 
 
 
>Egyptoid: Please put your costs down for disads and the like. I'm curious 
what 
>you consider to be the fair costs. 
Horse-$#%@.  I get enough flames from people who think I write the craziest 
characters going. I'm not going to add numbers and invite bombardment from 
you number crunchers as well. I prefer to run a role-playing game, not a 
lesson in 
Microsoft Excel. But aside from that, if a GM likes my concept, 
he'll copy my NPC and either put in numbers or he won't. I prefer to leave it 
as season to taste. I tend to run my campaign by feel & color, not numbers. 
When I get more regular access to Heromaker, I may post more numbers then, 
but I promise you, if you don't like my concepts now, you won't like'em 
any better when you see how much they end up costing. :) 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:34:56 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << Probably.  Make sure that are of decent quality and of thick cardboard>> 
>  
>   Thick cardboard? You wouldn't be able to affix the bottom flaps together. ;) 
> Do you really think they need to be thicker than the 10-point cover stock we 
> use on our books? Would you be willing to pay even *more* for thicker 
> cardstock? 
 
Is this as thick as the ones originally put out by SJG? 
 
The cardstock used in the Champions Gamemaster screen was to thin, as well 
as the material used in Alien Enemies.  The ones put out by SJG and in 
theWhite Wolf Streetfight books was pretty much on target. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:38:14 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: PART 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << Hahaha...  way back from 1990-95, when I ran my "Justice Alliance" game, 
> we had PaCT.  The "Paranormal Containment Team" >> 
>  
>   Then you obviously took advantage of the flux-induced paranormal ability to 
> travel in to the future, steal my idea, and travel back in time to "create" it 
> yourself! You foul villain! <LOL> 
 
You know, when I originally wrote that, I was gonna make a comment about 
how *you* stole *my* idea!  So, I have no other choice but to have my 
lawyers (Dewey, Cheatum & Howe) call you lawyers.  Unless, of course, you 
want to settle out of court and avoid the embarrsing publicity of a Judge 
Ito monitored court battle. 
 
(I wanna enough cash for a new Power Mac 6500 @300Mhz, good enough?) 
 
(Foul villain indead!) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:41:35 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << Major Mistake. The powers rules have many applications outside of 
> Super Powers. I think the Hero system rulebook should be the same size as 
> it was in 4th edition.>> 
>  
>   My bad. I think the plan *was* (or, rather, *is*) to have all the character 
> creation rules (including the "powers") in the Hero System Rules book, and 
> treat the Champions book as the campaign book (perhaps with a few extra 
> goodies, and certainly plenty of clear examples!). 
 
My bad? 
 
Anyway, this is a highly sensible idea.  As I said before, making a 
complete 5th Edition Hero System Rules book (covering all aspects of the 
game, along the lines of the GURPS players book) would be very cool.  I 
don't do a lot of Superhero stuff anymore, but I play a mess of other 
genres and would prefer tohave the core rules be as generic as possible. 
Oh yeah, you can't have to many *clear* examples.   
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:52:53 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: CHAR: KARZA DRONES 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Egyptoid wrote: 
 
> >> >   11  CON                 DF: Human, unless examined at Genetic Level 
>  
> >> Excuse me, but how could this be in any way _worth_ points in Champions? 
> >Good rant.  I'd like to add my own observation. 
> Um, you guys don't read the same supplements I do. Have you never 
> seen the magicians who have DF: strong magical aura (only visible to 
> other magicians & mana-sensitives? It's only worth 5 points because 
> only a limited group can see it in the first place, only a limited 
> group can react appropriately.  
 
Yes, but it is usaully a *lot* easier for the magic sensitives to detect 
the aura than for some to do a genetic examination.   
 
In the example you give, usually the magic sensetive (or other magician) 
can pick up the aura merely by being near the character, they aren't 
required to actually conduct a detailed scientific experiment.  Besides, 
how does such a DF limit the character?  Not nearly as much as the aura 
you mention, which can be detected by friend and enemy alike. 
 
> >> >   +2 SPEED, Only for Job related actions or to fire weapon. 
> >> Arg. Am I the only one who thinks SPD 'only for X' should be outlawed in 
> the 
> Yes, you are the only one. See the Hydra in the Hero Bestiary for details. 
 
My Bestiary is lent out, but the Hydra in the FH Companion doesn't use 
this setup. 
  
> >Egyptoid: Please put your costs down for disads and the like. I'm curious 
> what 
> >you consider to be the fair costs. 
> Horse-$#%@.  I get enough flames from people who think I write the craziest 
> characters going. I'm not going to add numbers and invite bombardment from 
> you number crunchers as well. I prefer to run a role-playing game, not a 
> lesson in 
 
I don't number crunch.  I put down point values so people can understand 
how I built something and get a quick assessment of the character's power 
level.  Would *you* buy a Hero Suppliment that just listed stats and 
powers with no total costs?   
 
> Microsoft Excel. But aside from that, if a GM likes my concept, 
> he'll copy my NPC and either put in numbers or he won't. I prefer to leave it 
> as season to taste. I tend to run my campaign by feel & color, not numbers. 
> When I get more regular access to Heromaker, I may post more numbers then, 
> but I promise you, if you don't like my concepts now, you won't like'em 
> any better when you see how much they end up costing. :) 
 
Plugging in the numbers for someone elses character design ends up (to me) 
sounding like I might as well make up the character from scratch.  I mean 
what's the point of that? 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:04:45 EST 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<<  Would he have to pout?  Wouldn't a friendly smile be just as effective, 
if not more so?   ;-]>> 
 
  Hey, whatever gets the retailers (and the distributors) to buy our stuff, 
mate! ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:04:48 EST 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Now I'm combing the local stores for a HSR... >> 
 
  We have probably less than 200 in stock. Just FYI. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:04:48 EST 
Subject: Special Offers to the list 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
  Would the list lurkers here be in favor of occasional special offers on Hero 
products if we were to do that? Something akin to "No shipping on orders" or a 
slight discount? We're considering starting seasonal or holiday-themed sales 
and I wanted to get feedback from folks here on the idea. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:04:49 EST 
Subject: Champions 5th Ed Cover 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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<< Really?  I thought it was pretty good. >> 
 
  So do we. But we want the 5th Ed. book to have an even *better* cover... ;) 
 
<< I'd realy like to see the next panel, though:  Seeker burried under the 
wall Doc D just squished him with, and the broken Katana stiking out.... >> 
 
  I know you were joking (at least I hope so), but I don't know if we'll be 
featuring any of the CU characters on the cover. Just FYI. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:04:52 EST 
Subject: Genre Books 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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<< Wow, I like this new emphasis on Genre books...>> 
 
  This is just the tip of the iceburg, folks. I've been promising for quite 
some time that we're going to be revitalizing the Hero System line. Very soon 
you're going to start seeing the fruits of all our labor. We aim to please, 
and I certainly hope that you like what's coming, because we have quite a bit 
planned for next year. ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:04:53 EST 
Subject: Layouts 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Just don't get as carried away with the hunt for weird fonts as WW has.  I 
had 
to put a couple of their books back on the shelf because the intro section 
gave me eyestrain.>> 
 
  See our first two books (Heroic Adventures Vol.s 1 & 2) for an idea of how 
we handle fonts. Only in player handouts do we/would we alter our standard 
font choices (i.e., for a letterhead, newspaper clipping, etc.) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:04:54 EST 
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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<< ...if they were decent... >> 
 
  I don't know what "decent" is to you. Can you be more specific? Thanks. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:04:54 EST 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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<< Like I've said, it works fine if you don't want to do any attacks at the 
same time.  Otherwise, the "Affects Physical World" needed on all your powers 
plus STR is really expensive.>> 
 
  Hmm, I see your point. I would say that a character using such a "maneuver" 
(or Power) would be in "Defensive" mode and couldn't attack, as per the rules. 
To attack, he'd have to lose that Zen-master-like defensive ability (like a 
de-cloaking Bird of Prey? <G>) as a 0 Phase action. But that's just me. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:04:55 EST 
Subject: Acrobatics in Combat 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
  One "simplified" way to handle Acrobatics in combat is to have the player 
make an Acrobatics Skill Roll for his PC, and use the Complementary Skill roll 
rules. I.e., for every 2 full points he makes the roll by, give him +1 Combat 
Level to be applied to OCV or DCV (player's choice) for that Action/Phase. 
What do you think? 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:04:58 EST 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< What she did have was Desolid, IPE (sight), define as becoming intangible. 
OTOH, the PCs almost went crazy because I described her as dodging constantly 
resulting in the PCs triumphantly telling me they had hit a DCV of 17 only to 
have me say "you miss".  She also aborted to her Desolid often to avoid 
damage. >> 
 
  One of my villains, Reflec, has a similar power... sort of. Suffice it to 
say it was slimey and the players hated me for months! <LOL> Reflec has this 
Force Field, with IPE. During combat folks would hit, but the special effect 
of the Force Field was that items (or energy) "bends" around him, effectively 
"missing" him. It took a *really* good, strong blow to actually "hit" him. My 
players still shudder at the thought of fighting Reflec again. ;)  Aggravation 
runs rampant! 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:17:40 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
>   One "simplified" way to handle Acrobatics in combat is to have the player 
> make an Acrobatics Skill Roll for his PC, and use the Complementary Skill roll 
> rules. I.e., for every 2 full points he makes the roll by, give him +1 Combat 
> Level to be applied to OCV or DCV (player's choice) for that Action/Phase. 
> What do you think? 
 
That has the potential to become highly unbalancing for a three point 
skill. 
 
Any DEX 29-31 martial artist will have a 15- Acrobatics and since the 
average of 3d6 is 11, routinely get +2 to his CV *every* Phase.  For only 
3 points! 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:37:17 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
>   Why? Can't a PC spread his EB, or use *up to* his max dice in the blast? Why 
> not let him use *less*? Say, a 1/2 die or 1 Pip Energy Blast, effectively 
> making it a 0 END "show of force?" 
 
 
	There's a minimal END cost involved with anything, usually placed 
at the minimum cost of the power level but almost always 1 END.  More if 
increased END is on the power, however.  This is from the same idea that 
even a non-STR-using Physical Action still uses 1 pt of END. 
 
	And as for powers with charges -- you blew a charge, plain and 
simple, by using the power.  You're down one charge and there ain't no way 
I'm letting an argument get that back. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:40:48 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
>   Thick cardboard? You wouldn't be able to affix the bottom flaps together. ;) 
> Do you really think they need to be thicker than the 10-point cover stock we 
> use on our books? Would you be willing to pay even *more* for thicker 
> cardstock? 
 
	Tell you the truth, I really don't like the flaps.  They never 
worked well for me.  I'd perfer a card printed on both sides that I can 
use a plastic stand for -- sort of like the Battletech cardboard figures. 
About that same cardstock would work, too.  Take a look at thier products 
from the main Boxed Set or perhaps Reinforcements 2. 
 
>   Sorry if I sound like a broken record, but I can't assume to know what you 
> folks are thinking when you make general or vague comments. Things like "Make 
> books that don't suck" doesn't really help us much. ;) 
 
 
	Sorry I can't say more about qualifying the questions on the art. 
Basically, I have to be able to tell pretty easily which character is 
depicted on the card.  Like I said, the cardboard heroes from the 
Champions GM screen were pretty good for that. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:00:01 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: That's What I Want... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
><< Speaking of Shapeshift, should a 5th edition rear its head, I'd like to see 
>the matter addressed of a _limited_, defined number of forms. >> 
> 
>  Your suggestion is noted. 
> 
><< For example, as it stands you get 1 form for 10 points, a 'bunch' of forms 
>for 20 points, and 'any' form for 30 points. What if I only want 2 forms? >> 
> 
>  I would suggest (for the time being) that you buy the 20 Pt. "Bunch of 
>Forms" power, and then give it a Limitation: Only 2 Forms (-1/2). Does that 
>work for you? 
 
No, it wouldn't. I'm very tempted to say that Shapeshifting is 'too cheap'. 
I'd like the list to discuss this idea. 
 
Shapeshift: 20 points for a single form. +2 points per additional form, +10 
points for a limited 'group', +10 points for a broad 'group', +10 points for 
any shape. 
 
But, Shapeshift costs no END (90% of the shapeshifter's I've ever seen buy 
'0 END' anyways). 
 
Limited Group is defined as by things like 'felines' or 'motorcycles' 
Broad Group is defined as by things like 'mammals' or 'machines' 
 
This is, of course, a more expensive construct (not necessarily bad, as 
Shapeshifting is darn useful and fairly rare, comic-wise), but it's got lots 
greater resolution - I'd prefer added resolution than added limitations.  
 
For example, I'd like to buy the DEF and Dice of Entangles separately 
(though, to prevent abuse, one should never be more than twice the other). 
I'd like to be able to buy Force Walls with Mental or Power Defense spelled 
out in the rules (ditto Forcefields). I want _discrete_ forms of Power 
Defense that apply only to a limited SFX - very few forms of 'power defense' 
should apply across the board vs. all SFX. I want Absorption to be able to 
operate as a defense without resorting to an Armor kludge. I want 
Duplication that doesn't make me pay for the new form's Disadvantages! 
(ditto Multiforms). I want Flash powers that cost 5 points per die but work 
on Segments, not Phases. I want to buy Life Support: Immune to Cold (only!) 
or Life Support: No Need to Sleep (only!) without resorting to limitations. 
I want better defined Regeneration (bump the REC of BODY up the time chart, 
can/can't regenerate organs, can/can't regenerate person from a smear of 
blood, etc.). I want an Immortality power. I want cheaper Stretching. I want 
a easy, purchasable means of Summoning _friendly_ minions without resorting 
to Mind Control (advantage or just +points). I want cheaper Telekinesis, b/c 
if that stupid rule didn't exist I could buy 10 STR TK, Ranged, No Figured 
Characteristics for 10 points, not 15! I want a 'reasonably reliable' 
Transform that can one-shot a 'normal' (10 BODY) without costing 80 points 
minimum. I also want a Transform that can have variable targets as well as 
results (this is unclear, but it LOOKS like the rules don't allow you to 
have variable targets, just variable results). 
 
That's what I want...is it too much to ask? :-) 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:00:06 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: CHAR: KARZA DRONES 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>> >   +2 SPEED, Only for Job related actions or to fire weapon. 
>>> Arg. Am I the only one who thinks SPD 'only for X' should be outlawed in 
>the 
>Yes, you are the only one. See the Hydra in the Hero Bestiary for details. 
 
That's a good one! :-). Seriously, the HERO Bestiary shouldn't be taken 
seriously. It does stuff like: 1 pip HKA, Reduced Penetration. Sorry, but 
ten squirrel bites are _not_ going to put me in negative BODY land. Or -3" 
Running to Alligators, which can fun faster than a man can for short 
periods. Ask others on the list about other goofy junk in the HERO Bestiary. 
 
Even the Hydra example is a bad one. +4 SPD, Only to Bite (-1 1/2). ONE AND 
A HALF??!?!?!? That alone should get you questioning their thinking. 
 
"Here, Mr. Ray-Gun man, take +3 SPD, Only to shoot ray-gun, at minus one and 
a half. What was it you do 90% of the time again?" 
 
"Shoot my ray-gun." 
 
"Jolly good, off you go..." 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 01:11:02 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
> << Probably.  Make sure that are of decent quality and of thick cardboard>> 
>  
>   Thick cardboard? You wouldn't be able to affix the bottom flaps together. ;) 
> Do you really think they need to be thicker than the 10-point cover stock we 
> use on our books? Would you be willing to pay even *more* for thicker 
> cardstock? 
>  
	Kinda. Thickness should be that of the Cardboard Heroes put out 
by SJG. 
 
>   As far as quality, I'm not letting you off the hook either. I'm more than 
> happy to read/listen to feedback from people, but it has to be helpful and 
> useful feedback. "Decent quality" doesn't cut the mustard, I'm afraid. I need 
> to know what you mean by "decent quality." 
> 
	Well, on par with the art in the book. Not distorted so much by 
miniturization that you can't even see who's who. Color that stays within 
the boarders. 
	Think of the cardboard figures put out by SJG so many years ago.  
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart! 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 01:15:41 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> costs?" <LOL> That's why when the old BBB started falling apart, the folks at 
> ICE and Hero were as shocked and displeased as anyone. 
>  
>   For a long time, ICE had a deal where you coould trade in your old BBB for a 
> Champs softcover. Are there still a lot of folks left who don't have 
> replacements for their old Champs hardcover? 
>  
	I think most of us never heard of that policy. This is the first time 
I ever did. 
	Fortunatly my BBB is holding together quite well. 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 17:47:24 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!] 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:32 PM 12/14/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>> Ah, you forgot to include Tim Gilberg in on this reproach. He was just as 
>> guilty of (off-topically) expousing a religious belief and arguing the 
finer 
>> points of theology. Reprimand only one person and you pretty much take 
>> sides, neh? 
> 
> Yeah, I went off.  But I don't like some smug a-hole with 
>sickening moral nuggets of how I'm going to hell because I don't believe 
>what some religious leaders culled from a mythological work. 
> 
>> And if anyone's wondering, I'm a Christian...but don't think that theology 
>> should be argued on this list. 
> 
> True.  But remember that the trying-to-be-a-missionary christian 
>started the whole damn thing. 
 
   Just as a point of fact: the actual "smug a-hole" who started it was 
posting a bunch of derogatory comments about Christians. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 17:48:54 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:17 PM 12/14/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
> 
>>   One "simplified" way to handle Acrobatics in combat is to have the player 
>> make an Acrobatics Skill Roll for his PC, and use the Complementary 
Skill roll 
>> rules. I.e., for every 2 full points he makes the roll by, give him +1 
Combat 
>> Level to be applied to OCV or DCV (player's choice) for that Action/Phase. 
>> What do you think? 
> 
>That has the potential to become highly unbalancing for a three point 
>skill. 
> 
>Any DEX 29-31 martial artist will have a 15- Acrobatics and since the 
>average of 3d6 is 11, routinely get +2 to his CV *every* Phase.  For only 
>3 points! 
 
   I think it could still work if a failure means that the character falls 
his Acrobatics Roll, cannot make an attack that Phase, is at half DCV, and 
must spend a half Phase the next Phase to get up. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:56:41 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Atmospheric FTL 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
> On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>  
>  
> > While I'm on the topic of FTL and Teleport, I wish there were a way to 
> > interface the two. It's very difficult to build an interplanetary 
> > teleporter, and certainly more costly than it's worth. 
>  
> Wait - why can't "interplanetary teleporter" just be a special effect for 
> FTL? 
>  
 
Because FTL won't get you out of a sealed room. 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: TUSV 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:02:14 +0000 (GMT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> take what I post as gospel even if you'd take TUSV itself as such. 
 
	Am I the only one who keeps wanting to read that as 
"The Ultimate Super Villian"? 
	Which in itself may make for a justifiable book. 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:08:11 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Atmospheric FTL 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:45 AM 12/14/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>> While I'm on the topic of FTL and Teleport, I wish there were a way to 
>> interface the two. It's very difficult to build an interplanetary 
>> teleporter, and certainly more costly than it's worth. 
> 
>Wait - why can't "interplanetary teleporter" just be a special effect for 
>FTL? 
 
   One of the more powerful Champions villains I ever constructed for my 
first campaign was a techno-wizard who was a PC's main Hunter.  We were 
very free-form back then, being rather more interested in telling a story 
than in game balance, strict adherence to the rules, or such nonsense.  At 
any rate, I decided to give him a 60-point Multipower, and one of the slots 
was FTL travel.  After doing the math, I discovered that he could start a 
fight with his henchmen at his side on one side of the galaxy, go to the 
other side of the galaxy with his FTL, grab a weapon, and return before the 
fight was over. 
   Due to a falling out with the co-GM, I never got to use the villain, let 
alone that particular trick.  (For the interested, a toned-down version of 
the villain, the Emerald Wizard, will be in Northwest Champions, sans the 
FTL.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:08:58 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Slipperiness 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Captain Spith wrote: 
 
> >  
> > At 03:49 PM 12/13/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
> > >I'm all for the 5th ed. In addition to the various suggestions people have 
> > >already made, I hope it includes either a "slipperiness" power or a 
> > >revised Change Environment that can make an icy surface with combat 
> > >effects. (My pet peeve.) 
> >  
>    I state openly and unabashedly at this time that I have NO idea how 
> to properly define slipperyness myself.... 
> --  
 
I reposted my CE rules (created in consultation with the list, mainly Bob 
and Geoff) a week or two ago. My initial idea, though, was a slipperiness 
power which I'll include here: 
 
Slipperiness 
 
     With this Standard, Constant Power, the character may create a 
surface on which it is difficult to move. For 10 points, the effect fills 
one hex; +1" of radius costs +10 points.  
     A character within a Slipperiness field must make a DEX roll if he or 
she moves, attacks, or takes any significant physical action. Targets with 
Breakfall may substitute that skill for the DEX roll. If the character is 
moving across a Slipperiness area larger than one hex, he or she takes -1 
per 1" moved. If the character fails the roll, he or she takes 1d6 damage 
for every 5" of velocity and ends up prone. For +3 points, the 
Slipperiness may penalize the DEX roll by -1.  
    A character in a Slipperiness field is also at 1/2 DCV. If the 
character can make an additional DEX or Breakfall roll, he or she will be 
only -1 DCV, but if the roll is failed, the character falls and takes 
damage as above. 
     Slipperiness does not normally affect characters  with Clinging. For 
+10 character points, the power will require Clinging characters to make 
DEX rolls like others. 
     Slipperiness, of course, has no effect on characters who are flying 
or otherwise avoiding ground movement. 
 
Example: Mr. Winter wants the ability to create an icy surface. For 30 
points, he can cause Slipperiness in a 3" radius. For an additional 15 
points, all DEX and Breakfall rolls vs. the Slipperiness will be at -5. 
Since he wants to use his ice against his arch enemy Gecko-Man, he spends 
10more points to counteract Clinging. His total cost is 30 + 15 + 10 = 55 
character points. 
 
	Slipperiness Cost: 10 character points for 1 hex Slipperiness, 
minimum cost 10 points. +1" Radius for 10 points. -1 to DEX and Breakfall 
rolls for +3 points. +10 points to counteract Clinging. Range = 5x 
Character Points in inches. 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:12:44 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes Scale 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:11 PM 12/12/97 +0000, ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net wrote: 
>What would be the right dimensions for cardboard minis? 1/2" x 1"? 
 
   That, or *slightly* larger (like 0.6" x 1.2" or so). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:14:05 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: That's What I Want... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> For example, I'd like to buy the DEF and Dice of Entangles separately 
> (though, to prevent abuse, one should never be more than twice the other). 
 
	Nice.  A simple thing. 
 
> should apply across the board vs. all SFX. I want Absorption to be able to 
> operate as a defense without resorting to an Armor kludge. I want 
 
	Why can you not grasp the whole idea of the Hero rules?  We've 
explianed it a million times.  Figure out the effect you want and then 
take the combined powers that will simulate that.  That's why absorpion 
provides no defense.  Sheesh! 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:20:11 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:45 AM 12/14/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>> >  I take it you haven't seen the covers to SA:CoH or Sengoku, then. We 
don't 
>> >plan on acquiring "mediocre" art for a 5th Ed. book, Michael. ;) 
>>  
>>    Leave in some mediocre art -- especially if it's Cris Cloutier's, or 
>> otherwise suggestive of the Golden Age Era (which was characteristically 
>> mediocre, but has a special place in the hearts of most if not all 
>> superhero lovers). 
> 
>I would not call Chris Cloutier's art mediocre.  It is certainly a lot 
>more dynamic and creative than Mark Williams stuff ever was (that was 
>mediocre), and if spends some time on the peice it can turn out excellent. 
>I still say that Madame Moonlight has one of the best costume designs in 
>all of the Champions books. 
> 
>I think Chris's only real drawback is his stuff may be a touch too 
>'cartoony' for most books. 
 
   I agree re: Madame Moonlight.  But go take a look at Leaping Lizard or 
Captain Future.  This is some pretty medicore work -- and *intentionally* 
so, to reflect the often medicore work of the Golden Age era that resulted 
when many of the better artists were drafted.  (Really, a tribute to Chris' 
ability.) 
   The bad side of this was that not only was this art (the actual Golden 
Age comics) of low quality, but it also resulted in a lower standard of 
artwork in comics and animation that lasted for decades.  The good side is 
that this particular *type* of mediocrity has become a style that truly 
talented artists like Chris can emulate for the sake of atmosphere. 
   This is why this particular "mediocre" art is something I'd continue to 
use. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:27:52 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Lesson in humility (and irony) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:40 AM 12/14/97 -0700, Curtis Gibson wrote: 
>Now, you tell me, is it fair to use a that thing  I built (a little, no 
>a lot munchkin) back on us. 8) 
 
   Yep.   [Evil laughter....] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Extra Time on a Triggered Power 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 14 Dec 1997 21:31:35 -0500 
Lines: 29 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "g" == ghoyle1 <ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net> writes: 
 
g> Stainless Steel Rat said: 
>> Also remember: that Extra Time limitation means that she cannot prepare her 
>> formula during combat, so she will have an extremely limited supply. 
>> Personally, I would use Charges instead of Extra Time. 
 
g> Actually, she has Charges, too. 
 
As just mentioned, a limitation that does not limit the character is worth 
no bonus. 
 
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--  
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                                    \ head. 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:32:38 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Open Apology 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:22 AM 12/14/97 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>Useful Tip: Never, ever answer mail while under the influence of sleep 
>deprivation. 
> 
>I'd like to apologize to the list for a major blunder o' mine.  Even as I 
>was typing away to answer Kev's "fundamentalist voice" message, my brain is 
>thinking "I'm so clever, I'm making a private response."  Only, of course, I 
>sent it to the list anyways because my mind was futzing up which addresses 
>went on which messages. 
> 
>If you feel you really have to flame me for opening up a religious debate on 
>the list, go right ahead -- I deserve it (*sigh*). But at least know that I 
>realize I did make a mistake, and I'm sorry for it.  The only religious 
>arguments that belong on this list are Linked debates (*duck*). 
 
   Speaking for myself, at in all probability for other Christians on the 
list as well, you can consider yourself forgiven.   :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: That's What I Want... 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:34:30 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> >> should apply across the board vs. all SFX. I want Absorption to be able to 
> >> operate as a defense without resorting to an Armor kludge. I want 
> > 
> >	Why can you not grasp the whole idea of the Hero rules?  We've 
> >explianed it a million times.  Figure out the effect you want and then 
> >take the combined powers that will simulate that.  That's why absorpion 
> >provides no defense.  Sheesh! 
>  
> Because Absorption doesn't _block_ or 'redirect' damage like armor or force 
> fields. It _transforms_ it from damaging 'power' to useful 'power'. It 
> should never have a _chance_ to do damage! 
> 
	You know, like the person above, when I first read the original comment 
at the top here I thought "You idiot, buy the Absorption and the proper 
defense." Then I read his defense of it below and must say I now 'almost' 
agree with him (I'll show below where I don't, which is cost of power, and 
why.). 
 
> PLUS, look at the costs involved. Absorption = 5 points/die. Aid = 5 points 
> per die. I'm paying (currently) AS MUCH as I am for Aid, while getting: 
>  
> A.) The same upper limit 
> B.) No personal control over the increase of my 'aided' power 
> C.) Increases dependant on the strength of the attack 
> D.) END free Aid. 
>  
> Sorry, but IMO, the '0 END' componant of Absorption DOES NOT balance out the 
> two other conditions. Why does Absorption EXIST AT ALL??? I could just as 
> easily do this: 
>  
> XD6 Aid, 0 END (+1/2), Persistant (+1/2), Only when hit by a power fitting 
> 'Y' SFX (-1/2), Dice of Aid limited by DC of attack (-1/2). 
>  
> It's virtually the SAME construct, with the same conditions. Please, if you 
> can, _justify_ to me the existance of Absorption at all, given that it 
> operates identically to this Aid construct. 
> 
	Now that's a very good point. One I hadn't considered before. 
  
> Now, back to Absorption acting in a 'damage transformation' manner. Watch 
> how easy this is: for every die of Absorption, you REMOVE one DC of damage 
> from the attack. So if someone with 8D6 Absorption gets hit with a 10D6 
> attack, only 2 damage dice are rolled - everything else gets 'absorbed'. 
> Then, you roll the dice of absorption (up to the maximum) to find out how 
> many 'CPs' are absorbed. Clean, simple, and actually has a reason for 
> existance - but don't mistake it for a cheap defense!! It's JUST as 
> expensive as Energy Blast, on a dice for dice basis. Buying 12D6 Absorption 
> is as expensive as buying 40 points of Resistant PD or ED, or 60 points of 
> non-resistant. 40 rPD will stop a 4D6 RKA or 12D6 Energy Blast just as cold, 
> though it has admittedly little effect on Knockback. 
> 
	However. 12d6 Absorption as you state it blocks up to 12d6 EB ALL 
the time. So it's really stopping from 12 to 72 points of damage. However 
a 13d6 EB that rolls all ones will still do 1 point in your construct. 
	Now I don't propose to roll the dice of arbsorption AND the 
dice of EB and then compare them for totals (which is what we do now), then 
absorb whatever you rolled and only take the rest (which is diferent from now). 
This has too many dice rolls. But perhaps we could buy absorption like 
PD or ED, only at say 2 or 3 points per point of absorption? Or 5 points per 
3 points of absorption? 
	However I think having it cancel out dice for dice is too potent 
under most situations, and oddly weak under some (25 character points of 
absorb should be enough to stop 10 points of damage, weather it was done by 
a 2d6 hit, or a 10d6 hit. However it should not be enough to stop 30 
points of damage, weather or not it's done by 5d6 or 10d6). All other 
defenses in champions are static, so it only makes sense for absorption's 
defensive side to be so as well. 
	Now as to weather the points added would be a static number like 
say 1 per 5 character points in the power, or equal to (base character 
points/5)d6 as the amount of Body of the attack I add is another question. 
 
> If I've got 12D6 Absorption, I doubt I'll ever see an absorption roll over 
> 12. Considering that a _lot_ of the absorbtion going on in comic books is 
> 'total', an extra 12 rPD just doesn't cut it. I'd need a HUGE Absorption to 
> get the additional defenses 'required' to simulate the effect. 
>  
 
	Well, in my above example I assumed the defense would stop Body and 
Stun; as I agree with your comic book analogy. 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:35:40 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Slipperiness 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:11 PM 12/14/97 -0800, Captain Spith wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>  
>> At 03:49 PM 12/13/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>> >I'm all for the 5th ed. In addition to the various suggestions people have 
>> >already made, I hope it includes either a "slipperiness" power or a 
>> >revised Change Environment that can make an icy surface with combat 
>> >effects. (My pet peeve.) 
>>  
>>    While assembling TUSV, I found a need to define some Power to do this. 
>> I settled on a Minor Transform to change regular ground into slippery 
>> ground.  The SFX could be ice, an oil slick, or something else.  (I even 
>> have a sample vehicle with an icy slick device.) 
> 
>   Of course, this still requires a definition of what slick ground 
>does.  I recall a dabate on what mechanics would/could be used to 
>represent slipperyness, but don't remember if there were any popular 
>results. 
>   I feel that the machanics of such a thing are much more to the point 
>than the mechanism;  once the resulting machanics are known, crafting 
>the power to implement them is relatively simple. 
>   I state openly and unabashedly at this time that I have NO idea how 
>to properly define slipperyness myself.... 
 
   I have a definition in the manuscript.  I don't recall what it is 
offhand, and I'm a little pressed for time (being urged by my much wiser 
wife to get off the computer ASAP) so I can't stop to look it up, but maybe 
I'll post it shortly. 
   Of course, either rule could be changed by the final draft, so don't 
take what I post as gospel even if you'd take TUSV itself as such. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 14 Dec 1997 21:37:16 -0500 
Lines: 32 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
BG>    Hold on a sec... what about breaking out of an Entangle?  I was being 
BG> mostly facetious before about the sky having a DCV, but a character using 
BG> STR or an attack Power (if you should pardon the expression) to break out 
BG> of an Entangle is a case of an attack that doesn't require an Attack Roll. 
 
Use of EB or RKA -- both instant powers that require attack rolls to use 
as attacks -- do NOT require an attack roll to break out of an Entangle. 
Additionally, if the damage done to the Entangle is sufficiently great, one 
may have a half-phase or even a full phase worth of action. 
 
In other words, thank you for presenting an example of the use of so-called 
"attack powers" that does not require an attack action to use. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:45:21 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
> >  Since it seems that the majority of folks (onthis list, anyway) would like 
> >to see more cardboard minis, let me ask you this: Would you be willing to pay 
> >an extra $2 for a book that had them included? 
> > 
> 
	You know, I think they should both be something within a book 
featuring all it's NPC's (Any NPC or consequence, not the Super Powered ones.), 
and seperate sold alone items in genre related packs like SJG did. 
	Some of the sold alone's could reprint those in books, and some new. 
Why reprint? Well if I ever have one of Sparx's players over and he spills 
a coke on it... :) Or the guy I had in high school who insisted on squeezing 
all of my figures flat everytime he touched one... 
	Of course, reprint packs should have no newbies, and newbie packs 
no reprints. Perhaps reprints could be done as mail order only, since 
most people wouldn't buy them. 
 
> Of course, I'd paid two extra bucks for some good card board heroes.  What I  
> mean by good would be a front and back, decent artwork and something that  
> wouldn't fall apart the first time one of my players spilt of glass of soda  
> on them.  Happens you know.  And more then just heroes, sci-fi characters,  
> westerns, police, agents, etc...  Looking for the works here.  Take it easy  
> and talk at you later. 
 
	Yeah. Multi-genre is a key idea here. 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 03:00:24 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
> > Oh, yeah, that.  I hadn't ever heard of that before the recent issue I 
> > picked up... she's hunting for Gambit in (I believe) Antarctica and 
> > mentions that it's buzzing like crazy... and that it had been inactive for 
> > a *long* while. 
>  
> Must have an 8- roll;) 
>  
> >  
> > Does Mjolnir come back every time he throws it?  (Straight EB, OAF)  Or is 
> > it sometimes caught/deflected? 
> 
	If it always returns, does it deserve a focus limitation? 
 
> It's been deflected but it seems to nearly always return.  In fact, 
> Juggernaut once stopped the hammer short of hitting him, then grabbed the 
> hammer and let it pull him back to Thor, using the veolcity to add to his 
> strength and sending Thor through several trains.  I've always liked 
> Juggy. 
 
	Definatly a good use of the rare call that special effects can 
sometimes have an in game application. 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Genre Books 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 03:15:54 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
> << Wow, I like this new emphasis on Genre books...>> 
>  
>   This is just the tip of the iceburg, folks. I've been promising for quite 
> some time that we're going to be revitalizing the Hero System line. Very soon 
> you're going to start seeing the fruits of all our labor. We aim to please, 
> and I certainly hope that you like what's coming, because we have quite a bit 
> planned for next year. ;) 
 
	How much of this hinges soley on the success of San Angelo? 
 
I mean if the only people who buy San Angelo are the one's who heard how 
cool it was here on this list, would that stop the printing of a future 
'Star Hero' or whatever? 
	A lot of people don't go for 'campaign world books' from what I myself 
have seen. I could be wrong though. 
	Do you Mark know what, outside of the BBB or Hero System Rulebook was 
the best selling Hero book? And if you do know, are you willing to tell us? 
	(not that I can think of a reason you wouldn't be.) 
 
	I know I plan to buy San Angelo. But I can also say I get mixed 
results when I mention it. Anything from 'I don't buy campaign worlds' to 
'it's on my shopping list' to 'oh? is Mark spamming that again?' 
 
Now I for one hope it does sell well, and if after I buy it I end up liking 
it will promote it myself. But if it doesn't will that stop the presses on 
the other, non related hero items? Are they being judged together or 
seperate? The crowd that buys into genre books like Fantasy Hero and 
Danger International is often diferent from the one that buys Strike Force 
and Champions Universe. 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Gold Rush Games Mailing List??? 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 03:28:21 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> >  This is just the tip of the iceburg, folks. I've been promising for quite 
> >some time that we're going to be revitalizing the Hero System line. Very soon 
> >you're going to start seeing the fruits of all our labor. We aim to please, 
> >and I certainly hope that you like what's coming, because we have quite a bit 
> >planned for next year. ;) 
>  
> I'm reading this, and I'm thinking, "This sounds great, but WHEN!!!"  Now I  
> know nothing is immediate in the world of instant gratification that I want  
> to live in, but is there some way to get on a mailing list that would send  
 
	Wow, a marketers dream come true. Not only willing to be spammed, but 
asking to be put on a list of people to spam. Yeah, put me on that list 
too. :) 
 
> starting to give up on any new Hero Products and you've kind of got the hope  
> going again.  I know I could always receive info here on the mailing list,  
> but when I go to the gaming shop I go to and say, they said on the InterNet  
> that this is out, they look at me clueless, usually, because I'm rushing to  
> the store before the release day.  Thanks and talk at you later. 
 
	Hey, that's better than I got it. I go to the store here in San 
Francisco (Gamescape on Divisadero) and ask for Ultimate Martial Artist on 
disk and get: 
 
	"doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business." 
 
So I walk to the Hero section and grab Ultimate Mentalist on disk and say: 
	"This is new right? Just got it from Hero Plus. Well what I want is 
also from them, can you add it to my next order please?" 
	and get: 
 
	"doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business." 
 
	So I look through the catalog they use to order from the distributor 
and find the page that lists it, get the stock number and write it all up for 
them on one of their order forms, even showing them the page in their 
catalog I got it from and writing that page on the order form and they say: 
 
	"doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business." 
 
	"Arg..." 
Man I wish I had a credit card, I wanna order that baby and walk in there and 
show both it and the postmark on the package from Hero Plus to them. Of 
course I already know what their response will be: 
 
	"doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business." 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:29:56 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Slipperiness 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
 
> 	Excellent soultion to a difficult problem.  Kudos to 
> you!  But how does it work in play? 
>  
 
I'm ashamed to admit I've done almost no playtesting with this. My 
opportunities for gaming have been pretty limited in the past couple 
years, so while I have a character or two written up with one version or 
another of Slipperiness, I haven't actually run them. I'd be thrilled to 
hear back from anyone else using either this or the Change Environment I 
posted before. 
 
In the last campaign I ran, I jokingly threatened to have the PC's 
attacked by the Slipperiness Squad, a group of villains built with either 
my Slipperiness power or my expanded CE. The speedster in the group 
objected for some reason... 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:31:37 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: That's What I Want... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>> should apply across the board vs. all SFX. I want Absorption to be able to 
>> operate as a defense without resorting to an Armor kludge. I want 
> 
>	Why can you not grasp the whole idea of the Hero rules?  We've 
>explianed it a million times.  Figure out the effect you want and then 
>take the combined powers that will simulate that.  That's why absorpion 
>provides no defense.  Sheesh! 
 
Because Absorption doesn't _block_ or 'redirect' damage like armor or force 
fields. It _transforms_ it from damaging 'power' to useful 'power'. It 
should never have a _chance_ to do damage! 
 
To show how _bad_ the 'armor up to absorption roll' idea is, let's consider 
knockback. Why, if 'effectively' I've just 'absorbed' an attack, should I 
take any knockback from it? That's right, I shouldn't. So I not only have to 
buy and Armor kludge, but a Knockback Resistance kludge as well! 
 
PLUS, look at the costs involved. Absorption = 5 points/die. Aid = 5 points 
per die. I'm paying (currently) AS MUCH as I am for Aid, while getting: 
 
A.) The same upper limit 
B.) No personal control over the increase of my 'aided' power 
C.) Increases dependant on the strength of the attack 
D.) END free Aid. 
 
Sorry, but IMO, the '0 END' componant of Absorption DOES NOT balance out the 
two other conditions. Why does Absorption EXIST AT ALL??? I could just as 
easily do this: 
 
XD6 Aid, 0 END (+1/2), Persistant (+1/2), Only when hit by a power fitting 
'Y' SFX (-1/2), Dice of Aid limited by DC of attack (-1/2). 
 
It's virtually the SAME construct, with the same conditions. Please, if you 
can, _justify_ to me the existance of Absorption at all, given that it 
operates identically to this Aid construct. 
 
Now, back to Absorption acting in a 'damage transformation' manner. Watch 
how easy this is: for every die of Absorption, you REMOVE one DC of damage 
from the attack. So if someone with 8D6 Absorption gets hit with a 10D6 
attack, only 2 damage dice are rolled - everything else gets 'absorbed'. 
Then, you roll the dice of absorption (up to the maximum) to find out how 
many 'CPs' are absorbed. Clean, simple, and actually has a reason for 
existance - but don't mistake it for a cheap defense!! It's JUST as 
expensive as Energy Blast, on a dice for dice basis. Buying 12D6 Absorption 
is as expensive as buying 40 points of Resistant PD or ED, or 60 points of 
non-resistant. 40 rPD will stop a 4D6 RKA or 12D6 Energy Blast just as cold, 
though it has admittedly little effect on Knockback. 
 
In other words, having Absorption operating as a defense _separates_ it from 
being just an Aid kludge, and makes it operate a lot more like the way 
'comic book absorption' does, without resorting to extra, exotic add-on powers. 
 
An additional note on the 'armor up to absorption roll' - it isn't enough. 
If I've got 12D6 Absorption, I doubt I'll ever see an absorption roll over 
12. Considering that a _lot_ of the absorbtion going on in comic books is 
'total', an extra 12 rPD just doesn't cut it. I'd need a HUGE Absorption to 
get the additional defenses 'required' to simulate the effect. 
 
Can you not understand the meaning of the word Absorb? I'll pull out my 
dictionary and rattle off some of the meanings for you: 
 
1.) to swallow up the identity or individuality of 
2.) to engross wholly 
3.) to suck up or drink in 
4.) to take up or recieve in by chemical or molecular action 
5.) to take in without echo or recoil 
 
Why do we have an Absorption power when it's NOT satisfying the very 
definition of the word Absorb? It's not 'sucking up' the power (still does 
damage), and it's certainly not doing it 'without recoil' (knockback still 
applies). And - if you don't want your Absorb to negate damage, why, you 
could buy a limitation to that effect, right in the power! <gasp!> Instead 
of buying TWO powers (three, if you include Knockback) to 'kludge' a true 
Absorptive effect, why not have ONE power that you could just limit for 
discrete effects? 
 
Why do I not 'grasp' that Absorption provides no 'defense', Mr. Gilbert? 
Because it DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE, that's why! Sheesh indeed! 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Special Offers to the list 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 03:33:38 +0000 (GMT) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
> >  Would the list lurkers here be in favor of occasional special offers on Hero 
> >products if we were to do that? Something akin to "No shipping on orders" or a 
> >slight discount? We're considering starting seasonal or holiday-themed sales 
> >and I wanted to get feedback from folks here on the idea. 
> > 
> Of course I'd want special offers.  How could I pass that up, I'm still not  
> done getting every Hero Book I want :)  Take it easy and talk at you later. 
> 
	No darnit! I refuse to get a discount! In fact, I'm going to pay 
double, no make that triple, heck. TEN times the cover price!!!! 
 
	Hah, thought you could fool me didn't you? :) 
 
Hmmm 
 
well, if you insist. I take a discount. But don't think I don't know what 
you're really up to!!! (insert a little cartoony guy wringing his hands and 
grinning knowlingly) 
 
:) :) :) 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Lesson in humility (and irony) 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 03:39:12 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> -Mhoram 
> Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 
>  two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright 
>  
	Where do you think all that Leprechaun gold comes from? :) 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:42:38 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: That's What I Want... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I would like to point out that Absorbtion ala John's version should have a 
seriously *large* Stop sign next to it. 
 
I still remember a character from 3rd Edition with Absorbtion (when it 
worked as a defense) and the character was virtually unstopable by any 
conventional attack. 
 
Not that I think John's version is wrong, just that GMs better be aware of 
what they might be letting into the game. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:46:06 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified) 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: That's What I Want... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>PLUS, look at the costs involved. Absorption = 5 points/die. Aid = 5 points 
per >die. I'm paying (currently) AS MUCH as I am for Aid, while getting: 
> 
>A.) The same upper limit 
>B.) No personal control over the increase of my 'aided' power 
>C.) Increases dependant on the strength of the attack 
>D.) END free Aid. 
 
Oh yeah, I forgot: 
 
E.) 1/3th the amount of CPs gained than Aid (in general, you roll 3-4 per 
die of Aid, but only 1 CP per die of Absorption). 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:47:02 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Special Offers to the list 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:04 PM 12/14/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
>  Would the list lurkers here be in favor of occasional special offers on 
Hero 
>products if we were to do that? Something akin to "No shipping on orders" 
or a 
>slight discount? We're considering starting seasonal or holiday-themed sales 
>and I wanted to get feedback from folks here on the idea. 
 
   You're really vying for a declaration of divinity, aren't you, Mark?   ;-] 
   The "No shipping" idea sounds like the best choice among what you 
mentioned. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:47:24 EST 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 97-12-14 08:30:43 EST, you write: 
 
<< AJ> Actually, it does; its just that the target of an aid ordinarily 
 AJ> _wants_ to be hit, and thus pending extreme circumstances the attack 
 AJ> roll can be assumed to be successful. 
  
 An attack roll is part of the process of making an attack.  If you do not 
 roll it, you have not made an attack. 
  >> 
 
Ummm... Check out page 57 HSR under the Power List... Look at Aid, under the 
Target column, it states "Target's DCV".  That would make Aid an 'attack 
power' requiring an Attack Roll. 
 
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:57:16 EST 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 97-12-14 16:29:55 EST, you write: 
 
<< F > Limitation has therefore put you at a disadvantage.  Now, GMs must  
  F > closely  
  F > monitor characters with the Linked Disad, so they don't simply buy  
  F > another  
  F > Flash.  If that's the case, then the Linked Flash has lost it's  
  F > Limitation  
  F > value, and deserves no points.  
  F >  
  F > 'Lynx  
  F > ---  
   
 So, they don't get points for it... do they still get to take  
 it and fire the two powers at once?  
 
 50 10d EB  
 20 linked 3d Flash -1/2  
 --  
 70  and linked is valid, by your interpretation...  
   
 but, if the character has the EB in a multipower with  
 a similar Flash, then he gets no points for the Linked  
   
 50 Multipower  
  3 3d Flash  
  5 10d EB  
 30 3d Flash linked to EB -0  
 --  
 88  
   
 Right?  
   
 But wait... if the linked 3d flash isn't limited...  
 Why do I need to go and buy the 2nd 3d Flash?  
   
 I mean, if a mutant character has 3d Killing, 0END  
 (laser eye beams), and decides to get an 'Infinity  
 Inc' Laser pistol (3d Killing, 0 END, OAF)... does  
 he not get the Focus limitation, because he always  
 has a 3d RKA ready to use at 0END?  I mean, that  
 seems to be the logic you're using...  So this  
 mutant is paying 135 pts and he basicly has a  
 3d KA, 0 END....  
   >> 
 
 
Sorry for the misunderstanding... I should have said "GM should then not allow 
the Linked Flash", after "deserves no points".  In other words, if you're not 
being limited by the Limitation, it's not worth any points, and shouldn't be 
allowed.  My mistake. 
 
'Lynx 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 04:09:10 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>    I've always seen the seperation of Acro. and B-fall (from the earlier 
> all-inclusive AcroBatics) to represent the more combat-useful (B-fall) 
> aspect in one, and the more non-combat or SFX useful (Acro.)  But I'm 
> probably wrong, eh? 
>  
	Hmm. 
I have trouble myself seeing how the two skills could have been grouped 
together in the first place. It's a very diferent knowledge set. 
	I for one can do Breakfall quite well. Judo training when I was 
younger and then years of going off jumps on a dirt bike but not always 
landing with the bike still under me (try having your steering wheel come 
off in mid-air, I still remember that one...) taught me to fall 
from high distances at rapid speeds and still avoid the fractures and 
broken bones the other people would get. As for straight drops; I can pull 
about a 10 foot drop before it starts to hurt. 
 
	But I in no way can do the splits, back flips an assorted gymnastic 
manuevers. 
 
From: "Sean Pavlish" <pavlish@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart! 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:13:05 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
><< Right down the middle.  The spines of the books from various RPG companies 
>just don't seem to hack it anymore...  What do they do... Look for the 
>cheapest glue out there on the market? >> 
> 
>  Sometimes they do (indirectly). You see, when a company prints a book it 
has 
>to way several factors, including their cost to print the book. So logically 
>they tend to steer toward the printers whose quotes are less than the more 
>expensive printers. That saves the consumer (that's you) money because the 
>publisher can keep the retail cost a bit lower. 
> 
>  However, the down side is that in order to *give* those lower quotes, some 
>printers use lower quality materials, from the paper stock, to inks, to glue 
>for the binding. It's not something the publisher chooses, like "Hey, use 
that 
>crappy glue there. Will that save me a penny per book on printing and binding 
>costs?" <LOL> That's why when the old BBB started falling apart, the folks at 
>ICE and Hero were as shocked and displeased as anyone. 
> 
 
 
Come on now Mark.  We all know it is a conspiracy by you all at the top of the 
line to get us to buy lots of cheap books knowing full well that we will be 
back  to buy them again when they fall apart.... 
 
Uh, sprinkle lots of LOL in above message.... 
 
Sean 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 04:13:59 +0000 (GMT) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
> On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
>  
> >   Often times what I let my players do is give me "comparisons" I can relate 
> > to. Things like "I do a double back-flip like Jackie Chan did in that one 
> > scene in Armor of God VII" and I say "Okay. Make your roll."  ;) 
>  
> No way man, Jackie vs Bennie in "Dragons Forever"! 
>  
	Naw, the scene in City Hunter where he gets slammed into a video 
game machine and comes out as the girl in Street Fighter II (but the actor 
still being Jackie), then the other guy turns into Ken and starts shooting 
blasts at him. 
	But I don't know if that one's been brought over into english yet. I 
saw it in Chinese while living in asia. 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:42:42 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  That brings up another question: What kind of illo would you folks like to 
>see for the cover? A collage of different scenes? A comic-booky sort of illo 
>(usually a fight scene)?  
 
Well, it depends on the book for the artwork.  If you were doing a core Hero  
System Rule Book, I would pepper it with different genres so that new people  
can see all the possibilities the game had.  If you were doing a Genre  
specific book, you want to bring the cover as close to the game as possible.  
 Ie.  SuperHero = Comic Book Look, Western = Wanted Poster Look  
 
I don't know just suggestions. 
 
>  One other note. Keep in mind that, primarily because of financial 
>considerations, we are looking at printing the Hero System rules book 
>separately, with Champions being a genre book. Champions would have the super 
>power rules in there, as well as a *much* better treatment of the genre, 
>examples, no "official universe" inside (rather examples and notes on creating 
>several different types, etc., but the Hero System "core" rules would be in 
>the Hero System rules book. 
 
Actually this is a great idea.  Keep in mind though that by doing this it  
suggests you will be putting out other genre books.  Not just the core book  
and the hero book :)  Take it easy and talk at you later. 
 
Sparx 
 
===================================================== 
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children. 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:44:18 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  Since it seems that the majority of folks (onthis list, anyway) would like 
>to see more cardboard minis, let me ask you this: Would you be willing to pay 
>an extra $2 for a book that had them included? 
> 
>  Mark @ GRG 
 
Of course, I'd paid two extra bucks for some good card board heroes.  What I  
mean by good would be a front and back, decent artwork and something that  
wouldn't fall apart the first time one of my players spilt of glass of soda  
on them.  Happens you know.  And more then just heroes, sci-fi characters,  
westerns, police, agents, etc...  Looking for the works here.  Take it easy  
and talk at you later. 
 
 
Sparx 
 
===================================================== 
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children. 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:46:54 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: PART 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  The supplement will also include some new villains (from the "PART case 
>files"), a few new skills, some tips on playing and GMing PART adventures, 
>creating PART PCs (in case some folks go for that sort of thing), PART tactics 
>(just how *do* they capture and transport those supervillains?), some PART- 
>based adventures, NPC write-ups of PART personnel, and so on. 
 
I'm looking for it already.  I love things like this myself.  I ran  
something along these lines, I had the Guardians which were my version of  
PART it sounds like.  It was a fun game, but I stuck with SuperHero because  
it is what my players wanted at the time, I'm still interested in trying to  
get another game going along those lines and PART sounds perfect.  Take it  
easy and talk at you later. 
 
Sparx 
 
===================================================== 
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children. 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:02:25 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> >>   One "simplified" way to handle Acrobatics in combat is to have the player 
> >> make an Acrobatics Skill Roll for his PC, and use the Complementary 
> Skill roll 
> >> rules. I.e., for every 2 full points he makes the roll by, give him +1 
> Combat 
> >> Level to be applied to OCV or DCV (player's choice) for that Action/Phase. 
> >> What do you think? 
> > 
> >That has the potential to become highly unbalancing for a three point 
> >skill. 
> > 
> >Any DEX 29-31 martial artist will have a 15- Acrobatics and since the 
> >average of 3d6 is 11, routinely get +2 to his CV *every* Phase.  For only 
> >3 points! 
>  
>    I think it could still work if a failure means that the character falls 
> his Acrobatics Roll, cannot make an attack that Phase, is at half DCV, and 
> must spend a half Phase the next Phase to get up. 
 
Then also consider this, 14- is close to (or above) 75%, while 15- is 
hitting 90% (I think).  In most 250 point martial artists have DEX of 24+, 
usually 26+, meaning that they will be getting a nice bennie at *low* 
risk.  If you want that, buy some CSLs with a limitations "must make 
Acrobatics roll". 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From: Pat10355 <Pat10355@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:07:10 EST 
Subject: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Hello, 
 
I've just joined the mailing list and I wanted to quickly introduce myself. 
I'm Patrick Sweeney, a Champions player since the very first edition and the 
author of the forthcoming San Angelo: City of Heroes campaign book from Gold 
Rush Games. 
 
I can tell this is an extremely active list -- I've already gotten several 
dozen e-mails and I only joined a couple of days ago. 
 
No big queries or commentary yet ... I expect you'll have some for me once the 
book comes out in January, and I'm looking forward to your feedback. I just 
wanted to say hi. Oh, and to apologize for accidentally sending my subscribe 
message to the mailing list instead of the owner. <doh!> 
 
Patrick Sweeney 
San Angelo: City of Heroes 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:08:05 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>Yeah, there was a bad batch of books printed way back. But from what I 
>heard at the time, if you sent your book back to ICE, they replaced it, 
>which seems fair. I bought mine when it first came out, but mine hasn't 
>fallen apart, so I don't think all of them were poorly done. 
> 
>-Nic 
 
Yeah, my book fell apart and a nice letter to ICE got me a new BBB.  I found  
this very professional and appreciated it greatly.  Part of a good business  
is making sure you stand behind your product.  Take it easy and talk at you  
later. 
 
 
Sparx 
 
===================================================== 
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children. 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:14:33 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> Oh, yeah, that.  I hadn't ever heard of that before the recent issue I 
> picked up... she's hunting for Gambit in (I believe) Antarctica and 
> mentions that it's buzzing like crazy... and that it had been inactive for 
> a *long* while. 
 
Must have an 8- roll;) 
 
>  
> Does Mjolnir come back every time he throws it?  (Straight EB, OAF)  Or is 
> it sometimes caught/deflected? 
 
It's been deflected but it seems to nearly always return.  In fact, 
Juggernaut once stopped the hammer short of hitting him, then grabbed the 
hammer and let it pull him back to Thor, using the veolcity to add to his 
strength and sending Thor through several trains.  I've always liked 
Juggy. 
 
 
TokyoMark 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:15:55 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  One "simplified" way to handle Acrobatics in combat is to have the player 
>make an Acrobatics Skill Roll for his PC, and use the Complementary Skill roll 
>rules. I.e., for every 2 full points he makes the roll by, give him +1 Combat 
>Level to be applied to OCV or DCV (player's choice) for that Action/Phase. 
>What do you think? 
 
I play my game by this as well provided the player has good reasoning behind  
the maneuver.  I also don't allow every player to run around with  
Acrobatics.  I also throw the added risk in it, for every full two you miss  
the roll by you suffer -1 OCV or DCV depending on what you were going to add  
it to.  If you roll an 18 on the Acrobatics roll you halve both OCV and DCV  
for the phase, you messed up big!  Just my rule for Acrobatics, but it works  
pretty well.  Take it easy and talk at you later. 
 
Sparx 
 
===================================================== 
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children. 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:18:50 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7 
cc: champ-l@omg.org, sengoku@dryland.mandarin.org 
Subject: Re: Ninjato 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>   According to some sources, some ninja were descended from samurai clans, and 
> thuis already had access to weapons and such. As far as stealing, of course 
> that was the case on occasion. Once the ninja became a stronger "political" 
> force, however (ca. 14th-16th centuries, I believe), they had money from their 
> patrons to sustain them, not to mention their own artisans and craftsmen. 
>  
>   And to get back to the original point, the ninjato were straighter (although 
> not perfectly straight) because they were easier and less expensive to make 
> than the high-quality katana/tachi and wakizashi. Ninja considered the ninjato 
> a tool, not a piece of art. 
 
It's been interesting comparing this discussion with what I already knew 
of the katana and ninjato.  I originally started this by commenting that I 
didn't think the ninjato should have the +1 stun mult since that made it a 
superior sword to the katana.  Gold Rush has seemed to agree with this and 
while Rat disagreed, his comments, especially all the comparisons that 
made the ninjato sound pretty much like a katana with a slightly different 
look.  So, I'm going to go ahead and adjust it to match a katana for games 
I run. 
 
TokyoMark 
 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:21:04 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Gold Rush Games Mailing List??? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
><< Wow, I like this new emphasis on Genre books...>> 
> 
>  This is just the tip of the iceburg, folks. I've been promising for quite 
>some time that we're going to be revitalizing the Hero System line. Very soon 
>you're going to start seeing the fruits of all our labor. We aim to please, 
>and I certainly hope that you like what's coming, because we have quite a bit 
>planned for next year. ;) 
> 
>  Mark @ GRG 
 
I'm reading this, and I'm thinking, "This sounds great, but WHEN!!!"  Now I  
know nothing is immediate in the world of instant gratification that I want  
to live in, but is there some way to get on a mailing list that would send  
out product info?  Release Dates?  Ads?  I'd prefer snail mail, e-mail is  
ok, and yes, I could always go to the web site.  I was just curious.  I was  
starting to give up on any new Hero Products and you've kind of got the hope  
going again.  I know I could always receive info here on the mailing list,  
but when I go to the gaming shop I go to and say, they said on the InterNet  
that this is out, they look at me clueless, usually, because I'm rushing to  
the store before the release day.  Thanks and talk at you later. 
 
Sparx 
 
===================================================== 
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children. 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:22:53 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: Special Offers to the list 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  Would the list lurkers here be in favor of occasional special offers on Hero 
>products if we were to do that? Something akin to "No shipping on orders" or a 
>slight discount? We're considering starting seasonal or holiday-themed sales 
>and I wanted to get feedback from folks here on the idea. 
> 
>  Mark @ GRG 
        
Of course I'd want special offers.  How could I pass that up, I'm still not  
done getting every Hero Book I want :)  Take it easy and talk at you later. 
 
 
Sparx 
 
===================================================== 
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children. 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:26:26 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Extra Time on a Triggere 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Opal wrote: 
 
>  
> I believe it's halved...  If it isn't officially, you can always 
> declare a variant to that effect. 
>  
> Note that, but default, Trigger effects the item/person it's put 
> on... In this case, the *needle* is going to be drugged... :) 
> You have to buy AE, with a limitation that it only affects the 
> one target, to get around this (well, UBO or UAO, or something 
> might work)  (darn, I have to get a new HSR!  practically 
> memorized just isn't quite the same) 
 
	You sure about this?  I couldn't see anything in the  
write-up about that.  I put a trigger on an energy blast.  You are  
saying that because I did that, I lose the ranged aspect of the  
blast? 
 
	I think the above device has been brought with a trigger  
but also as a foci.  Hence, the mixing and loading of the needle,  
which takes 5 minutes, has already been done and all that remains  
is injecting it. 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:31:43 EST 
Subject: Fwd: Ninjato 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
  Here is a reply to the ninjato thread that I sent to the Sengoku list. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
---------------------------------------------- 
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From: tanuki@takamori.southern.co.nz (Dorian Davis) 
To: sengoku@dryland.mandarin.org 
Date:          Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:05:07 GMT-13 
Subject:       Re: Ninjato 
Reply-To: sengoku@dryland.mandarin.org 
Priority: normal 
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII 
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit 
 
Haifuku 
 
Mark, replying to ? writes: 
 
> <<, "Ninjato" can be either a specific type of sword, or literally 
> "ninja sword", a sword owned and used by a ninja. *Some* ninjato 
> (the second meaning) were converted from katana, and many of them 
> had their blades straightened in the conversion. >> 
 
Ninjato?  Should be ninja ken, or shinobigatana. 
 
> If you were to "straighten" a traditional katana, whether by 
> heating and pressure, or whatever, you'd ruin the blade! That's the 
> most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time. 
 
First I've heard of it.  Once the sori (curvature) is set, it can't 
be altered (unless, of course, the sword is reduced to a molten mass 
of metal again). 
 
> And to get back to the original point, the ninjato were straighter 
> (although not perfectly straight) because they were easier and less 
> expensive to make than the high-quality katana/tachi and 
> wakizashi. Ninja considered the ninjato a tool, not a piece of art. 
 
Shinobigatana were usually "home" forged 'straight' slabs of steel, 
with a single cutting edge.  Their length was kept short to facilitate 
fighting in close quarters; and to allow the wearer to move quickly 
and silently in cramped spaces. 
 
The blade had to be utilitarian because it was also used to cut 
through, or pry open, doors, hatches, or windowframes.  The 
less-refined cutting edge meant that the swordsman relied more on 
body weight in motion behind the sword; and typical techniques were 
slamming stabs and sawing, dragged-edged cuts.            To keep silent and 
act wise/ Still not as good 
             as drinking sake/ Getting drunk and weeping. 
                      Otomo no Tabito (665 - 731) 
              
                                                    
 
 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:00:18 -0700 
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
Subject: Re: Lesson in humility (and irony) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Captain Spith wrote: 
>  
> Curtis Gibson wrote: 
>  
> > After the fight I asked about the monstrosity the GM built and was 
> > informed "I didn't built it, you did. I just used your writeup of the 
> > psycho Cat and added a few things for Special Effects."  oops. 
> > 
> > Now, you tell me, is it fair to use a that thing  I built (a little, no 
> > a lot munchkin) back on us. 8) 
>  
>    Not only was it fair, it was commendable!  
 
Sorry. I thought I had put enough sarcasm in my original post. The "was 
it fair" line was meant tounge firmly in cheek. Even as a player I 
appreciated the irony of the team being beat up by a monstrosity that I 
thought was perhaps a little excessive, then finding out that _I_ had 
built it. Hoist by my own petard. 8) 
 
 
> 
 First of all, you had GM 
> approval to run the character yourself in the first place; not even all 
> NPCs would have GM OK as PCs.  
 
Actually it was a PC, that turned villian, so I ran the villian part of 
the plot. 
 
> Secondly, and most importantly, it was 
> fine storytelling, as he took an element from the game and developed it 
> further.  This is what a lot the less imaginative games lack.  Some 
> games will have an adventure, run it through, then never hear of it 
> again; bringing back characters, events and reprecussions from the past 
> help players feel more connected to their world, and lets them know that 
> their prescence makes a difference.  Okay, not always a positive one.... 
 
I agree totally. In my many years of playing champs, my current GM is 
one of the two best I have ever run. He has a true sense of story and 
development.  
 
--  
-Mhoram 
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 
 two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:12:35 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: That's What I Want... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> 
> Why do I not 'grasp' that Absorption provides no 'defense', Mr. Gilbert? 
> Because it DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE, that's why! Sheesh indeed! 
 
	First of all.  IT'S GILBERG!  NOT GILBERT!  GILBERG!  YOU HEAR! 
 
	Okay, then.  Now that issue's cleared, we can move on. 
 
> Because Absorption doesn't _block_ or 'redirect' damage like armor or force 
> fields. It _transforms_ it from damaging 'power' to useful 'power'. It 
> should never have a _chance_ to do damage! 
 
	That's _one_ interpretation and SFX of the power provided in the 
HSR.  There very well could be others that do not fit the above.  Why does 
everything have to work like the one you have? 
 
> To show how _bad_ the 'armor up to absorption roll' idea is, let's consider 
> knockback. Why, if 'effectively' I've just 'absorbed' an attack, should I 
> take any knockback from it? That's right, I shouldn't. So I not only have to 
> buy and Armor kludge, but a Knockback Resistance kludge as well! 
 
	Um.  Only fair.  Absorption is cheap enough as it is.  And for 
many SFX, the absorption does hit and affect. 
 
> PLUS, look at the costs involved. Absorption = 5 points/die. Aid = 5 points 
> per die. I'm paying (currently) AS MUCH as I am for Aid, while getting: 
> 
> A.) The same upper limit 
> B.) No personal control over the increase of my 'aided' power 
> C.) Increases dependant on the strength of the attack 
> D.) END free Aid. 
 
	Well, actually, this was one of the changes that are to occur in 
the Champions rules.  Aid will become a 10 pts/die power.  AID is 
underpriced and broken, so of course Absorption will seem to expensive. 
 
> Sorry, but IMO, the '0 END' componant of Absorption DOES NOT balance out the 
> two other conditions. Why does Absorption EXIST AT ALL??? I could just as 
> easily do this: 
> 
> XD6 Aid, 0 END (+1/2), Persistant (+1/2), Only when hit by a power fitting 
> 'Y' SFX (-1/2), Dice of Aid limited by DC of attack (-1/2). 
> 
> It's virtually the SAME construct, with the same conditions. Please, if you 
> can, _justify_ to me the existance of Absorption at all, given that it 
> operates identically to this Aid construct. 
 
	Actually, I've always thought that one could do it exactly this 
way.  Sort of like Gliding being unnecessary with its similarity to 
Flight. 
 
> Now, back to Absorption acting in a 'damage transformation' manner. Watch 
> how easy this is: for every die of Absorption, you REMOVE one DC of damage 
> from the attack. So if someone with 8D6 Absorption gets hit with a 10D6 
> attack, only 2 damage dice are rolled - everything else gets 'absorbed'. 
 
	Nice, but very, very effective.  Over effective, really. 
 
> Then, you roll the dice of absorption (up to the maximum) to find out how 
> many 'CPs' are absorbed. Clean, simple, and actually has a reason for 
> existance - but don't mistake it for a cheap defense!! It's JUST as 
> expensive as Energy Blast, on a dice for dice basis. Buying 12D6 Absorption 
> is as expensive as buying 40 points of Resistant PD or ED, or 60 points of 
> non-resistant. 40 rPD will stop a 4D6 RKA or 12D6 Energy Blast just as cold, 
> though it has admittedly little effect on Knockback. 
 
	Yeah, but for the same cost you are also getting free AID to 
certain powers or characteristics.  And the free KB resist isn't minor. 
It works out to be about 1" per die.  KB can have major effects in games. 
 
> In other words, having Absorption operating as a defense _separates_ it from 
> being just an Aid kludge, and makes it operate a lot more like the way 
> 'comic book absorption' does, without resorting to extra, exotic add-on powers. 
 
	Some Comic Book absorption.  There are other genres, but I'll 
assume you ignore those for now. 
 
> 
> An additional note on the 'armor up to absorption roll' - it isn't enough. 
> If I've got 12D6 Absorption, I doubt I'll ever see an absorption roll over 
> 12. Considering that a _lot_ of the absorbtion going on in comic books is 
> 'total', an extra 12 rPD just doesn't cut it. I'd need a HUGE Absorption to 
> get the additional defenses 'required' to simulate the effect. 
 
	Um.   Then take a lesser defense.  Heck, just buy defense with the 
SFX of being absorbed. 
 
> Can you not understand the meaning of the word Absorb? I'll pull out my 
> dictionary and rattle off some of the meanings for you: 
> 
> 1.) to swallow up the identity or individuality of 
> 2.) to engross wholly 
> 3.) to suck up or drink in 
> 4.) to take up or recieve in by chemical or molecular action 
> 5.) to take in without echo or recoil 
 
 
	Um.  Your point?  A dictionary definition is not rules, nor should 
it be.  Look up the definition of energy and blast while you're at it.  Or 
missile deflection.  Or many of the other powers in Hero that don't fit a 
Webster's definition of their names.  The name is just that, a name.  It 
describes a set of game effects.  Use the game effects of various powers 
to make up a SFX.  That's the Hero System.  You should have gotten that 
back in 101.  I'm afraid you're going to have to repeat that class. 
 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:01:19 EST 
Subject: GRG Product List 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
  I thought folks on the list would like to know what we have to offer, what's 
in the works (indicated by a "TBA" or a release date in the left column) and 
also to know what's out of print (in book form). I beg forgieveness in advance 
from those who don't want this info. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
-------------------------------------------------------- 
PRODUCT LIST w/ISBN 
 
Release	Stock#	ISBN	Title	Price 
 
BLACK GATE PUBLISHING 
	BG2000	0-9641722-0-8	Legacy: War of Ages RPG	25.00 
	BG2100	0-9641722-1-6	Blades: Immortal Steel	18.00 
TBA	BG2110	TBA	Sentinels: Mortal Enemies	18.00 
TBA	BG3000	TBA	Warlock: Black Spiral	25.00 
 
CRUNCHY FROG / NIGHTSHIFT GAMES 
	CF1700	N/A	Hidden Invasion RPG	19.95 
	CF1701	N/A	Things To Come	14.95 
TBA	TBA	TBA	Vampire Hunter$	TBA 
	CF3000	N/A	Critter Commandos	 7.95 
	CF3100	N/A	Critter-Tek	14.95 
	CF1000	N/A	Duel RPG	 7.95 
	CF0050	N/A	Voidstriker	 8.95 
	CF5000	N/A	$tar Corp$: Call to Battle!	 9.95 
	CF200A	N/A	Toy War 2: The Next Generation	 4.95 
 
LICENSED HERO SYSTEM BOOKS 
	H100	1-890305-00-6	Heroic Adventures Vol. 1	16.00 
	H101	1-890305-01-4	Heroic Adventures Vol. 2	16.00 
TBA	H102	1-890305-07-3	Heroic Adventures Vol. 3	16.00 
TBA	H103	1-890305-09-X	Crime & Crime Again	16.00 
Spr'98	H104	1-890305-08-1	Sands of Time	16.00 
Dec'97	H300	1-890305-03-0	San Angelo: City of Heroes	25.00 
TBA	H301	1-890305-13-8	Enemies of San Angelo	16.00 
TBA	H302	1-890305-14-6	Denizens of San Angelo	16.00 
TBA	H303	TBA	San Angelo Map Book	16.00 
TBA	H304	TBA	San Angelo Adventures	16.00 
 
HERO GAMES 
	HG406	1-55806-082-0	The Zodiac Conspiracy	11.00 
	HG410	1-55806-104-5	Kingdom of Champions	18.00 
	HG411	1-55806-109-6	Champions in 3-D	16.00 
	HG418	1-55806-123-1	Champions Presents	14.00 
	HG420	1-55806-160-6	Normals Unbound	13.00 
	HG422	1-55806-173-8	Hi Tech Enemies	13.00 
	HG423	1-55806-177-0	Dark Champions	20.00 
	HG424	1-55806-178-9	Champions Presents #2	15.00 
	HG426	1-55806-181-9	Shadows of the City	15.00 
	HG427	1-55806-183-5	Allies	13.00 
	HG428	1-55806-186-X	The Mutant File	13.00 
	HG429		Creatures of the Night	13.00 
	HG430	1-55806-194-0	Justice, Not Law	15.00 
	HG431	1-55806-197-5	Underworld Enemies	13.00 
	HG433	1-55806-206-8	Murderer's Row	13.00 
	HG434	1-55806-208-4	Corporations	14.00 
	HG436	1-55806-212-2	Golden Age Champions	20.00 
	HG437	1-55806-220-3	Pyramid in the Sky	16.00 
	HG438	1-55806-223-8	Hudson City Blues	16.00 
	HG439	1-55806-227-0	Enemies For Hire	15.00 
	HG440	1-55806-230-0	Enemies Assemble!	15.00 
	HG441	1-55806-242-4	Atlantis	15.00 
	HG442	1-55806-248-3	Watchers of the Dragon	20.00 
	HG451		Champions Deluxe (w/o disk)	35.00 
	HG500		Hero System Rulebook	20.00 
	HG501	1-55806-095-2	Ninja Hero	17.00 
	HG504	1-55806-118-5	Western Hero	20.00 
	HG507	1-55806-168-1	Hero Bestiary	18.00 
	HG511	1-55806-225-4	Hero System Almanac 2	15.00 
 
PROPAGANDA PUBLISHING 
	PP9000	N/A	Shattered Sky RPG	16.00 
	PP9001	N/A	Shattered Sky GM Screen	11.95 
 
SENGOKU 
Dec '97	S100	1-890305-10-3	Sengoku: Chambara Role-playing in Feudal 
Japan	25.00 
TBA	S101	1-890305-11-1	Shadows of Nihon	16.00 
TBA	S102	1-890305-12-X	The Middle Kingdom	16.00 
TBA	S103	TBA	Magic Sourcebook	16.00 
TBA	S104	TBA	Sengoku GM Screen	15.00 
 
LICENSED TRAVELLER BOOKS 
TBA	T100	1-890305-04-9	New Voyages Vol. 1: The Kargol Confederation	16.00 
TBA	T101	1-890305-05-7	New Voyages Vol. 2: Derelict!	16.00 
TBA	T102	1-890305-06-5	New Voyages Vol. 3: The Phoenix Foundation	16.00 
TBA	T103	TBA	New Voyages Vol. 4: Starship Yakaze	16.00 
 
USAGI YOJIMBO 
Dec'97	U100	1-890305-02-2	Usagi Yojimbo RPG	16.00 
 
WINGNUT GAMES 
	WG3000	N/A	Battle Cattle	7.95 
	WG2100  N/A	OG: The Role Playing Game	7.95 
 
OUT OF PRINT 
	CS001	N/A	Cyberpunk: Night City Trax 
	HG022	0-915795-63-9	Super Agents 
	HG032	0-915795-94-9	Wings of the Valkyrie 
	HG050	1-55806-056-1	Star Hero 
	HG402	1-55806-041-3	Mind Games 
	HG403	1-55806-044-8	Classic Enemies 
	HG404	1-55806-046-4	Challenges For Champions 
	HG405	1-55806-075-8	Mystic Masters 
	HG407	1-55806-049-9	Invasions: Target Earth 
	HG408	1-55806-101-0	Day of the Destroyer 
	HG413	1-55806-112-6	Alien Enemies 
	HG414	1-55806-114-2	The Olympians 
	HG416	1-55806-119-3	Classic Organizations 
	HG417	1-55806-120-7	European Enemies 
	HG419	1-55806-157-6	Champions of the North 
	HG421	1-55806-167-3	Champions Universe 
	HG425	1-55806-179-7	VIPER 
	HG432	1-55806-204-1	An Eye for an Eye 
	HG450	1-55806-043-X	Champions (softcover) 
	HG451D		Champions Deluxe w/HeroMaker 
	HG502	1-55806-102-9	Fantasy Hero 
	HG503	1-55806-104-5	Fantasy Hero Companion I 
	HG505	1-55806-152-5	Cyber Hero 
	HG506		Fantasy Hero Companion II 
	HG508	1-55806-184-3	Hero System Almanac I 
	HG509	1-55806-203-3	Horror Hero 
	HG510	1-55806-215-7	The Ultimate Martial Artist 
	HG512	1-55806-232-7	The Ultimate Mentalist 
 
Heroic Adventures, Sengoku: Chambara Roleplaying in Fuedal Japan, New Voyages, 
Night City Trax and San Angelo: City of Heroes are trademarks of Gold Rush 
Games. Fuzion is a trademark of The Fuzion Group and used uder license. 
Champions and the Hero System are trademarks of Hero Games and used under 
license. Cyberpunk is a trademark of R. Talsorian Games, Inc. and used under 
license. Traveller is a trademark of Far Future Enterprises and used under 
license. Legacy is a trademark of Black Gate Publishing and used under 
license. Usagi Yojimbo is a trademark of Usagi Studios and used under license. 
Battle Cattle and OG are trademarks of Wingnut Games. Shattered Sky is a 
trademark of Propaganda Publishing. 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:14:19 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: That's What I Want... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>> Why do I not 'grasp' that Absorption provides no 'defense', Mr. Gilbert? 
>> Because it DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE, that's why! Sheesh indeed! 
> 
>	First of all.  IT'S GILBERG!  NOT GILBERT!  GILBERG!  YOU HEAR! 
 
Oops, I usually don't do that ^_^. 
> 
>	Okay, then.  Now that issue's cleared, we can move on. 
> 
>> Because Absorption doesn't _block_ or 'redirect' damage like armor or force 
>> fields. It _transforms_ it from damaging 'power' to useful 'power'. It 
>> should never have a _chance_ to do damage! 
> 
>	That's _one_ interpretation and SFX of the power provided in the 
>HSR.  There very well could be others that do not fit the above.  Why does 
>everything have to work like the one you have? 
 
It doesn't. But it's probably easier (and cleaner!) to limit a single power 
to create sub-effects than use several powers in kludgy conjunction. 
 
>> To show how _bad_ the 'armor up to absorption roll' idea is, let's consider 
>> knockback. Why, if 'effectively' I've just 'absorbed' an attack, should I 
>> take any knockback from it? That's right, I shouldn't. So I not only have to 
>> buy and Armor kludge, but a Knockback Resistance kludge as well! 
> 
>	Um.  Only fair.  Absorption is cheap enough as it is.  And for 
>many SFX, the absorption does hit and affect. 
 
Absorption is cheap?? Since when? Compared to Aid, it's grossly expensive 
and practically useless. 
> 
>> PLUS, look at the costs involved. Absorption = 5 points/die. Aid = 5 points 
>> per die. I'm paying (currently) AS MUCH as I am for Aid, while getting: 
>> 
>> A.) The same upper limit 
>> B.) No personal control over the increase of my 'aided' power 
>> C.) Increases dependant on the strength of the attack 
>> D.) END free Aid. 
 
And E.) 1/3 the result of a like-diced Aid 
 
>	Well, actually, this was one of the changes that are to occur in 
>the Champions rules.  Aid will become a 10 pts/die power.  AID is 
>underpriced and broken, so of course Absorption will seem to expensive. 
 
Then what happens to the price of Transfer? IMHO it's overpriced...sure, you 
rob an opponant while Aiding yourself, but first you need a handy 
opponant...Transfer should at least have no 'drain' cap (not sure if it 
currently does, but it seems implied). 
 
>> Sorry, but IMO, the '0 END' componant of Absorption DOES NOT balance out the 
>> two other conditions. Why does Absorption EXIST AT ALL??? I could just as 
>> easily do this: 
>> 
>> XD6 Aid, 0 END (+1/2), Persistant (+1/2), Only when hit by a power fitting 
>> 'Y' SFX (-1/2), Dice of Aid limited by DC of attack (-1/2). 
>> 
>> It's virtually the SAME construct, with the same conditions. Please, if you 
>> can, _justify_ to me the existance of Absorption at all, given that it 
>> operates identically to this Aid construct. 
> 
>	Actually, I've always thought that one could do it exactly this 
>way.  Sort of like Gliding being unnecessary with its similarity to 
>Flight. 
 
So you agree with me (in principle) that the Absorption construct is 
redundant. 3D6 of the above Aid is as good as 9D6 of the regular 
'Absorption', provided you rate the Aid to '1 die per 3 DC of attack'. 
 
>> Now, back to Absorption acting in a 'damage transformation' manner. Watch 
>> how easy this is: for every die of Absorption, you REMOVE one DC of damage 
>> from the attack. So if someone with 8D6 Absorption gets hit with a 10D6 
>> attack, only 2 damage dice are rolled - everything else gets 'absorbed'. 
> 
>	Nice, but very, very effective.  Over effective, really. 
 
Possibly, though it could go up to 10 points a die, which, IMHO, would be 
fair. And of course it should be 'Looking Glass' or 'STOP Sign'. 
 
>> Buying 12D6 Absorption 
>> is as expensive as buying 40 points of Resistant PD or ED, or 60 points of 
>> non-resistant. 40 rPD will stop a 4D6 RKA or 12D6 Energy Blast just as cold, 
>> though it has admittedly little effect on Knockback. 
> 
>	Yeah, but for the same cost you are also getting free AID to 
>certain powers or characteristics.  And the free KB resist isn't minor. 
>It works out to be about 1" per die.  KB can have major effects in games. 
 
Not a hell of a lot of Aid, though. Functionally only 25% of a like-diced 
Aid. And I don't think KB is 1" per die of attack. More like 1/2" per die. 
 
>> In other words, having Absorption operating as a defense _separates_ it from 
>> being just an Aid kludge, and makes it operate a lot more like the way 
>> 'comic book absorption' does, without resorting to extra, exotic add-on 
>> powers. 
> 
>	Some Comic Book absorption.  There are other genres, but I'll 
>assume you ignore those for now. 
 
No, I assume that you can just limit the Absorption power to generate 
discrete effects if you want. As it stands, Absorption is redundant in the 
face of Aid. At least this 'absorption as a defense' idea makes Absorption a 
'separate' power - and isn't HERO about having (mostly) unique powers with 
which to fit the special effects? 
 
>> An additional note on the 'armor up to absorption roll' - it isn't enough. 
>> If I've got 12D6 Absorption, I doubt I'll ever see an absorption roll over 
>> 12. Considering that a _lot_ of the absorbtion going on in comic books is 
>> 'total', an extra 12 rPD just doesn't cut it. I'd need a HUGE Absorption to 
>> get the additional defenses 'required' to simulate the effect. 
> 
>	Um.   Then take a lesser defense.  Heck, just buy defense with the 
>SFX of being absorbed. 
 
A possibility, but it doesn't 'feel' right. 
 
>> Can you not understand the meaning of the word Absorb? I'll pull out my 
>> dictionary and rattle off some of the meanings for you: 
>> 
>> 1.) to swallow up the identity or individuality of 
>> 2.) to engross wholly 
>> 3.) to suck up or drink in 
>> 4.) to take up or recieve in by chemical or molecular action 
>> 5.) to take in without echo or recoil 
> 
> 
>	Um.  Your point?  A dictionary definition is not rules, nor should 
>it be.  Look up the definition of energy and blast while you're at it.  Or 
>missile deflection.  Or many of the other powers in Hero that don't fit a 
>Webster's definition of their names. 
 
They most certainly do! An energy blast is a blast of energy. Missile 
deflection is the deflection of missiles (broadened to most ranged attacks). 
Desolidification lets the user become non-solid. Suppress supresses a power. 
Why doesn't the Absorbtion power absorb?  
 
>Use the game effects of various powers 
>to make up a SFX.  That's the Hero System.  You should have gotten that 
>back in 101.  I'm afraid you're going to have to repeat that class. 
 
You keep chanting that like a mantra. Look, if my idea is so damn wacky, 
then why have previous editions had Absorption as a defense? Yes, it was 
changed, but that doesn't mean that the change was RIGHT. Nor does it mean 
that the old power was right either - it just means that I think the whole 
thing should be re-examined in the light of a potential 5th edition. I got 
class 101, probably better than you did, because I've moved up to 422 
'Re-examining the assumptions behind the various powers'. Maybe you missed 
that course. 
 
<Everyone else: Sorry if this is getting a little nasty, but that's the 
second time Gilberg has accused me of 'not grasping the fundamentals of 
HERO', like the mechanics were some sort of sacred cow that cannot be 
improved, and if I could just grasp the whole power/SFX thing that 
everything would be okay. Well, then why are we all still arguing about 
Linked and Slipperyness if the system is so perfect??> 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:18:45 EST 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< But I still want the palyer to describe to me in some detail what amazing 
acrobatic feat he's performing to get this bonus.>> 
 
  Then give him +1 for every 2 points he makes the roll by. ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:22:09 EST 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< But I still want the palyer to describe to me in some detail what amazing 
acrobatic feat he's performing to get this bonus.>> 
 
  Doh! I meant to reply, "Then give him +1 for ever 4 points he makes it by if 
he refuses to the maneuver."  ;) 
 
  Seriously, though, one thing about RP games is that many players don't 
really *know* what their characters can do, at least not in real world terms. 
For instance, I may have Computer Programming 8- in the real world, but if my 
character has a 14- in it, I'd be fluffing my way through any descriptions my 
GM asked me for. 
 
  Often times what I let my players do is give me "comparisons" I can relate 
to. Things like "I do a double back-flip like Jackie Chan did in that one 
scene in Armor of God VII" and I say "Okay. Make your roll."  ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:24:12 EST 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Of course, if you wanted it to sell out in the millions, get Jim Lee 
to do the cover... >> 
 
  At this point if it would sell more books.... 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  ...nah! 
 
  <LOL> 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:29:17 EST 
Subject: Re: Art in GRG's Hero books 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
  Just so some folks know (in advance), the artists we're using include: 
 
  Steve Bryant  (of FASA fame) 
  Storn Cook (of Hero & Star Wars RPG fame) 
  Albert Deschesne 
  Louis Frank (anyone read "Haymaker!"?) 
  Bryce Nakagawa 
  Greg Smith (of Hero fame) 
 
  We're also looking for additional artists for future books, so if you know 
someone who'd be interested in illustrating for us have them drop us a line. 
We currently pay $100 per published page (i.e, $25 for each 1/4-page illo) for 
publishing rights. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:39:26 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!] 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    Just as a point of fact: the actual "smug a-hole" who started it was 
> posting a bunch of derogatory comments about Christians. 
 
   Actually, to be fair, the smug a-hole who started it was making 
comments about a _small_group_ of christians; specifically, those who 
televangelize and proclaim the existence of Satan in RPGs (and 'RPG Card 
Games').   I read no sweeping condemnation of Bible-followers as a whole 
in the original posting.  Nor did my follow-up posting imply a general 
inclusion, rather a poke specifically at the media-slut factions of the 
Biblical Folks. 
   It wasn't until somebody included themselves, then took offense, that 
things got ugly. 
   Please, people, many if not most comments on this - and probably many 
others - list are targeted at a group defined by the comments of the 
post itself, unless explicitly stated otherwise.  If a posting starts 
lambasting - say - powergamers, and you are not a powergamer, (get ready 
for it...) then the posting is NOT directed at you! 
   This kind of misunderstanding has spurred innumerable week-lond 
heated debates and personal arguements on this list on many topics, so 
please take a moment to reflect on the 'target audience' before you take 
offense to a posting. 
 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: Re: Ninjato 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 03:00:40 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> >  
> >   And to get back to the original point, the ninjato were straighter 
(although 
> > not perfectly straight) because they were easier and less expensive to 
make 
> > than the high-quality katana/tachi and wakizashi. Ninja considered the 
ninjato 
> > a tool, not a piece of art. 
>  
> It's been interesting comparing this discussion with what I already knew 
> of the katana and ninjato.  I originally started this by commenting that I 
> didn't think the ninjato should have the +1 stun mult since that made it a 
> superior sword to the katana.  Gold Rush has seemed to agree with this and 
> while Rat disagreed, his comments, especially all the comparisons that 
> made the ninjato sound pretty much like a katana with a slightly different 
> look.  So, I'm going to go ahead and adjust it to match a katana for games 
> I run. 
>  
> TokyoMark 
  
 
I agree that the ninjato doesn't deserve a +1 STUN multiplier.  The typical 
ninjato likely doesn't deserve a +1 OCV bonus either, unlike a high-quality 
katana or wakizashi forged with exquisite skill. 
 
I like to give the quality swords favored by knights and swashbuckler the +1 
OCV.  To balance the sword's advantage, I grant a +1 STUN multiplier to heavy 
battle axes to better reflect the crushing power of such weapons in addition 
to their cutting power.  A +1 STUN mult I give to common hammers, maces, and 
flails, while the heaviest of such weapons receives a +2 STUN mult.  So a 
knight wearing heavy jousting armor capable of absorbing lots of BODY can 
still get his bell rung by a two-handed flail. 
 
I have another suggestion for hand-and-a-half weapons.  Provided the 
character has the STR min to wield the weapon one-handed, if he chooses to 
wield it with both hands, he gets a +1 Damage Class bonus when gripping it 
two-handed--in a sense, the STR min for swinging it with two hands is reduced 
by 5.  It gives a further option to characters.  A knight who forgoes using a 
shield and swings his bastard sword with both hands gets to do a little extra 
damage, trading a defensive benefit for an offensive one.  A samurai trained 
in two-sword fighting (WF: Off-Hand) who chooses to leave his wakizashi 
sheathed to wield his katana two-handed does a bit more damage with his 
primary blade, while losing the DCV bonus, the flexibility of Binding with 
one weapon while striking with the other, and the possibility of surprise 
attacks with the secondary weapon. 
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
             
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:00:46 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Genre Books 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
GoldRushG wrote: 
>  
> << Wow, I like this new emphasis on Genre books...>> 
>  
>   This is just the tip of the iceburg, folks. I've been promising for quite 
> some time that we're going to be revitalizing the Hero System line. Very soon 
> you're going to start seeing the fruits of all our labor. We aim to please, 
> and I certainly hope that you like what's coming, because we have quite a bit 
> planned for next year. ;) 
>  
>   Mark @ GRG 
 
   Please remember, too, that the Hero System is best implemented in 
Super-Heroics.   Don't get me wrong, I'm not spouting off genre 
preferences, just that the system was created as a Super-Hero RPG, and 
in my experience, it is the bestsystem for building/playing the 
Paranormal Genre.  Many claim that other systems are more 'realistic' or 
real-world friendly, which may be true, but I seldom play other genres, 
so I rely on second-hand information there.  But the Hero system's 
mechanics are mostly ideal for higher-level play; greater diversity of 
DEXes and SPDs, much broader ranges of power levels and diversities, 
much broader range of SFX are all possible through the Supers game. 
   I'm not trying to downplay the System's playability at Secret Agent 
or Fantasy levels, there's nothing wrong or 'broken' with those, it's 
just that some of the mechanical constructs of the system are clearly 
designed to show their colours at higher power levels.  (That's it, 
Spith, keep circling, maybe your point will actually come clear...) 
 
   My point being this; probably the primary audience for Hero System 
games is the Comic-Book set, so make sure to maintain continued support 
for that Genre, such as advuntures, supplements, etc. 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 01:38:28 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
GoldRushG wrote: 
>  
>   One "simplified" way to handle Acrobatics in combat is to have the player 
> make an Acrobatics Skill Roll for his PC, and use the Complementary Skill roll 
> rules. I.e., for every 2 full points he makes the roll by, give him +1 Combat 
> Level to be applied to OCV or DCV (player's choice) for that Action/Phase. 
> What do you think? 
>  
>   Mark @ GRG 
 
   I think that this would fit well in the 10-point acrobatics.  The 
3-point acrobatics from Hero 4th, I have always understood, should have 
very limited combat effectiveness.  That's why I liked the <3rd ed. 
version(s); it was priced so that it made more sense to be more combat 
useful. 
   I've always seen the seperation of Acro. and B-fall (from the earlier 
all-inclusive AcroBatics) to represent the more combat-useful (B-fall) 
aspect in one, and the more non-combat or SFX useful (Acro.)  But I'm 
probably wrong, eh? 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 01:50:39 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> >> I.e., for every 2 full points he makes the roll by, give him +1 
> >> Combat 
> >> Level to be applied to OCV or DCV (player's choice) for that Action/Phase. 
> >> What do you think? 
> > 
> >That has the potential to become highly unbalancing for a three point 
> >skill. 
> > 
> >Any DEX 29-31 martial artist will have a 15- Acrobatics and since the 
> >average of 3d6 is 11, routinely get +2 to his CV *every* Phase.  For only 
> >3 points! 
>  
>    I think it could still work if a failure means that the character falls 
> his Acrobatics Roll, cannot make an attack that Phase, is at half DCV, and 
> must spend a half Phase the next Phase to get up. 
 
   I believe there should be consequences for failure, but that seems 
like a lot.  I would think the 1/2DCV and loss of the rest of the phase 
would be sufficient, I wouldn't carry over to the next phase unless an 
18 were rolled. 
 
   It also just occurred to me that the Acrobatics as CSL might be 
dangerous; I had one character (Capt. Spith, actually!) who had a <21 
Acrobatics roll to represent virtually guarenteed success even with most 
modifiers.  If he could use them for O/DCV, he would be able to get an 
AVERAGE of +5 every phase. 
   At 30 DEX, using 3rd ed. Acrobatics, this skill cost him 22 points 
for effectively 5 CSLs over and above any other benefit of 
Acrobatics.....  
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 01:57:09 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Friday, December 12, 1997 3:20 PM, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
<snip> 
>Wasn't there a time where she absorbed Colossus, Nightcrawler, and 
Kitty 
>Pryde's powers to beat some big baddy? 
 
And Wolverine's. And possibly the other X-Men as well, I only clearly 
remember those four. 
 
>  Was that the Brood? 
 
Nimrod. Ultimate, sentient, mentally flexible Super-Sentinel from the 
future. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:10:57 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Rick Holding wrote: 
 
>         And if you break the entangle with double the required body, you get a 
> full phase.  Quote, p68 BBB "If an ATTACK [my capitols] against an entangle 
> does twice the remaining body of the entangle or more, then the attacker may 
> take his full action (ie. it takes no time to break out of the entangle).  If 
> an attack against an entangle does the remaining body or more, then the 
> attacker may take a half action." End quote. 
>  
>         An attack was made against the entangle.  If it breaks the entangle, 
> you get either a half or full phase.  Which can be used to make an attack. 
> (Duck!!) 
 
   Exactly!  The Entangle mechanics speak not to whether or not combat 
actions take time or not, but rather to the mechanics of an Entangle.  I 
believe it is loosely based on the 'casual STR' rule; if you double the 
BODY necessary to break an Entangle, it is considered analogous to only 
having required 'casual' STR (or appropriate attack), thus allowing you 
to retain your action.  The 1/2 phase is just a gradient step so it's 
not all-or-nothing. 
    
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Champions  5th Edition 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:32:29 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Saturday, December 13, 1997 6:06 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>   I have a few minor ideas besides what I'm putting into TUSV, such 
as 
>allowing +5 points for 2X DNPCs. 
 
 
Definitely. My wife had a favorite character (Tetra, a bionic psionic- 
long story:). My wife enjoys soap operas,  and spent a lot of time 
playing with possible backgrounds for that character. By the time we 
were done writing her background up, one of her minor powers (very 
minor body control, mostly just SFX) had allowed her to, without harm 
to herself or slowing down her busy life more than utterly necessary, 
allowed her to have _16_ children before she turned 30, mostly in 
twins and quadruplets. 
 
Even treating them as eight children with Duplication, Always On, 
there was no way I was giving her _that_ for a Disadvantage.:) I 
always felt a little bit sorry for that character.:) 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Champions  5th Edition 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:32:29 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Saturday, December 13, 1997 6:06 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>   I have a few minor ideas besides what I'm putting into TUSV, such 
as 
>allowing +5 points for 2X DNPCs. 
 
 
Definitely. My wife had a favorite character (Tetra, a bionic psionic- 
long story:). My wife enjoys soap operas,  and spent a lot of time 
playing with possible backgrounds for that character. By the time we 
were done writing her background up, one of her minor powers (very 
minor body control, mostly just SFX) had allowed her to, without harm 
to herself or slowing down her busy life more than utterly necessary, 
allowed her to have _16_ children before she turned 30, mostly in 
twins and quadruplets. 
 
Even treating them as eight children with Duplication, Always On, 
there was no way I was giving her _that_ for a Disadvantage.:) I 
always felt a little bit sorry for that character.:) 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Champions  5th Edition 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:34:10 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Saturday, December 13, 1997 6:06 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
<snip> 
> 
>   Opal has a fix for Hand Attack which most of the folks on the list 
like. 
> (I know Bill and I both do, but he and I tend to agree on things 
anyway.) 
>   Hey Opal!  Do you mind posting that again, for Mark?   :-] 
 
 
There is a decent fix, as well as some other good ideas, in the Hero 
Games website Digital Hero archive. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Champions  5th Edition 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:34:10 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Saturday, December 13, 1997 6:06 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
<snip> 
> 
>   Opal has a fix for Hand Attack which most of the folks on the list 
like. 
> (I know Bill and I both do, but he and I tend to agree on things 
anyway.) 
>   Hey Opal!  Do you mind posting that again, for Mark?   :-] 
 
 
There is a decent fix, as well as some other good ideas, in the Hero 
Games website Digital Hero archive. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:36:49 -0800 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Saturday, December 13, 1997 6:13 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>>The other comment is "No more hard covers"  In my group we have 5 
copies of 
>>the BBB all 5 have fallen apart. 
>> 
>>Juat a general question to the list, did that happen to everyone? 
> 
>   It did to me.  I had to ditch my hardcover and get a softcover 
edition. 
 
In about a week. And it was a friend's copy, not mine. I was GM and 
didn't have any money, so....:( 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:36:49 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Saturday, December 13, 1997 6:13 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>>The other comment is "No more hard covers"  In my group we have 5 
copies of 
>>the BBB all 5 have fallen apart. 
>> 
>>Juat a general question to the list, did that happen to everyone? 
> 
>   It did to me.  I had to ditch my hardcover and get a softcover 
edition. 
 
In about a week. And it was a friend's copy, not mine. I was GM and 
didn't have any money, so....:( 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:53:55 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
>   Often times what I let my players do is give me "comparisons" I can relate 
> to. Things like "I do a double back-flip like Jackie Chan did in that one 
> scene in Armor of God VII" and I say "Okay. Make your roll."  ;) 
 
No way man, Jackie vs Bennie in "Dragons Forever"! 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:57:05 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Art in GRG's Hero books 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
>   Just so some folks know (in advance), the artists we're using include: 
>  
>   Steve Bryant  (of FASA fame) 
 
Don't know him. 
 
>   Storn Cook (of Hero & Star Wars RPG fame) 
 
His stuff is getting better.  Watchers had some nice pieces. 
 
>   Albert Deschesne 
 
Sorry, his stuff has never looked any good.  I can draw better than him by 
a long shot. 
 
>   Louis Frank (anyone read "Haymaker!"?) 
 
I recognize the name, he also did stuff in Horror Hero and GAC.  Nice 
stuff. 
 
>   Bryce Nakagawa 
>   Greg Smith (of Hero fame) 
 
Both very good. 
  
>   We're also looking for additional artists for future books, so if you know 
> someone who'd be interested in illustrating for us have them drop us a line. 
> We currently pay $100 per published page (i.e, $25 for each 1/4-page illo) for 
> publishing rights. 
>  
>   Mark @ GRG 
>  
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann) 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 04:01:25 -0800 
Organization: Terminal BBS  (403)327-9731 
Subject: That's What I Want... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 -=> Quoting John and Ron Prins to Mike Lehmann <=- 
 
Hiya John. Long time, no argue... :) 
 
 JaRP> Now, back to Absorption acting in a 'damage transformation' manner. 
 JaRP> Watch how easy this is: for every die of Absorption, you REMOVE one DC 
 JaRP> of damage from the attack. So if someone with 8D6 Absorption gets hit 
 JaRP> with a 10D6 attack, only 2 damage dice are rolled - everything else 
 JaRP> gets 'absorbed'. Then, you roll the dice of absorption (up to the 
 JaRP> maximum) to find out how many 'CPs' are absorbed. Clean, simple, and 
 JaRP> actually has a reason for existance - but don't mistake it for a cheap 
 JaRP> defense!! It's JUST as expensive as Energy Blast, on a dice for dice 
 JaRP> basis. Buying 12D6 Absorption is as expensive as buying 40 points of 
 JaRP> Resistant PD or ED, or 60 points of non-resistant. 40 rPD will stop a 
 JaRP> 4D6 RKA or 12D6 Energy Blast just as cold, though it has admittedly 
 JaRP> little effect on Knockback.  
 
Personally, I think this is what Damage Reduction was intended for, but  
different strokes... 
 
I have also been wondering about the utility of Absorption lately, and I  
had a few ideas for house rulings: 
 1) The 5 points/d6 stands, but it now converts from STUN damage to CPs; 
 2) The power works the same as in the book, but is now 3 points/d6  
       (like Dispel); 
 3) The power is bought like John suggested, but the dice are rolled to  
       conter the attack, STUN to STUN, BODY to BODY. The ability to  
       counter out dice, IMO, is pretty potent; 
 
I'm seriously looking at #1, primarily because, as John stated, you  
don't get enough out of regular Absorption to make it worthwhile... And  
it wouldn't be much more severe than simply using a (IMO more abusive)  
Aid in there... but to defend against the attack, you still need the  
PD/ED/Armor/FF/etc. 
 
I don't agree that it needs to be replaced, but I think it does need  
some overhauling. Anyone else have any ideas regarding this? 
 
As an aside, does anyone else here restrict the SFX of attacks that  
someone's Damage Reduction/Absorption/etc. can function against (ie  
fire, cold, punches, etc.) rather than just Energy/Physical damage? 
 
GM: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net                    | Justice Krewe 
Web: http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html  | The Illuminators 
Short waiting list for new players                    | Enigma Watch 
Lurkers welcome (Write to me!)                        | KnightWatch 
 
... Just my luck - my psychotic episode is a rerun. 
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR] 
 
 
 
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From: WhiteLotus <WhiteLotus@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:18:18 EST 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Ninjato 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 97-12-15 03:26:22 EST, bastet@iquest.net writes: 
 
<< >   According to some sources, some ninja were descended from samurai 
clans, and 
 > thuis already had access to weapons and such. As far as stealing, of course 
 > that was the case on occasion. Once the ninja became a stronger "political" 
 > force, however (ca. 14th-16th centuries, I believe), they had money from 
their 
 > patrons to sustain them, not to mention their own artisans and craftsmen. 
 >  
 >   And to get back to the original point, the ninjato were straighter 
(although 
 > not perfectly straight) because they were easier and less expensive to make 
 > than the high-quality katana/tachi and wakizashi. Ninja considered the 
ninjato 
 > a tool, not a piece of art. 
  
 It's been interesting comparing this discussion with what I already knew 
 of the katana and ninjato.  I originally started this by commenting that I 
 didn't think the ninjato should have the +1 stun mult since that made it a 
 superior sword to the katana.  Gold Rush has seemed to agree with this and 
 while Rat disagreed, his comments, especially all the comparisons that 
 made the ninjato sound pretty much like a katana with a slightly different 
 look.  So, I'm going to go ahead and adjust it to match a katana for games 
 I run. 
  
 TokyoMark >> 
 
Construction and even style of use is VERY different. While the Katana can cut 
very much like a razor and can employ more intricate cut styles, most of the 
styles I have come across (Yes, Ive gone to camps fun fun fun hands on 
training) use a different style for the straight edged sword. It's more of a 
slaming cut with lot's of force behind it.  
 
E 
 
From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann) 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 04:18:31 -0800 
Organization: Terminal BBS  (403)327-9731 
Subject: Extra Time (was Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long)) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 -=> Quoting Jeremiah Driscoll to Mike Lehmann <=- 
 
 JD> Champions III (1984), pg. 48.  "New Power Limitations," "Activation 
 JD> Time: This is a Limitation on all non-offensive Powers that normally 
 
<snip> 
 
Thanks for the rule copy, I was just about to ask about that exact  
subject for my latest rendition of my house rules. 
 
GM: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net                    | Justice Krewe 
Web: http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html  | The Illuminators 
Short waiting list for new players                    | Enigma Watch 
Lurkers welcome (Write to me!)                        | KnightWatch 
 
... Discoveries are made by not following instructions. 
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR] 
 
 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 05:01:58 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: That's What I Want... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:31 PM 12/14/97 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
>>> should apply across the board vs. all SFX. I want Absorption to be able to 
>>> operate as a defense without resorting to an Armor kludge. I want 
>> 
>> Why can you not grasp the whole idea of the Hero rules?  We've 
>>explianed it a million times.  Figure out the effect you want and then 
>>take the combined powers that will simulate that.  That's why absorpion 
>>provides no defense.  Sheesh! 
> 
>Because Absorption doesn't _block_ or 'redirect' damage like armor or force 
>fields. It _transforms_ it from damaging 'power' to useful 'power'. It 
>should never have a _chance_ to do damage! 
> 
>To show how _bad_ the 'armor up to absorption roll' idea is, let's consider 
>knockback. Why, if 'effectively' I've just 'absorbed' an attack, should I 
>take any knockback from it? That's right, I shouldn't. So I not only have to 
>buy and Armor kludge, but a Knockback Resistance kludge as well! 
 
   Rather than try to argue this in terms of logic and real-world physics, 
I suggest we examine the application of the power in comics and other 
fiction and determine how it works there.  Then we can determine whether we 
need (a) kludges for other Powers such as Armor and Knockback Resistance, 
(b) an Advantage to Absorption (which is what I currently use, at +1/2), or 
(c) a Limitation to Absorption (when it *doesn't* provide a defense). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:31:42 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    - Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb.  My own 
> structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for lesser utility 
> (3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single tentacle 
> or prehensile tail). 
 
That was one of the silliest parts of the previous edition of Champions; I 
certainly have no desire to see it return. Building the 100-armed giants 
of Greek mythology should _not_ mandate a Power on the order of 1000 
points. 
 
>    - Flash, as mentioned elsewhere, should be 5 points per die, with each 
> BODY pip of Flash working for 1 segment.  (It makes Flash Defense more 
> balanced.) 
 
Sounds okay. 
 
>    - Force Field and Force Wall should have Flash Defense, Mental Defense, 
> and Power Defense methods built right in. 
 
Force Wall, maybe. Force Field would be pointless. (Just buy them Costs 
END.) 
 
>    - Hand-to-Hand Attack should *not* be omitted; this would leave us with 
> the old kludge of "+X STR, Only for Damage."  Use Opal's version instead. 
 
The old kludge works fine IMO. 
 
>    - Instant Change should be scaled.  (My scale is 5 pts = instant, 4 pts 
> = half Phase, 3 pts = Phase, 2 pts = Turn, 1 pt = minute, normal = 5 
> minutes, with all costs doubled for "any clothing.") 
 
What's the point? Just use Extra Time to simulate this. 
 
>    - Life Support should have some of its elements able to be broken down 
> even further, like 2 points for being immune to *either* heat *or* cold. 
 
You already can do this - LS: Extreme Temperatures, only vs heat(-1/2). 
Simple enough. 
 
> Also, 1-2 points for retarded aging is a cool idea. 
 
Same comment. 
 
>    - Stretching should be cheaper.  I like 2 points per 1", though this may 
> be an overreaction. 
 
Sounds reasonable. 
 
>    - Transform should be more specifically described as well, especially in 
> terms of what constitutes Cosmetic, Minor, and Major Transforms.  (I tend 
> to go with this:  if it doesn't affect the character sheet, it's Cosmetic; 
> if it shifts points around on the sheet or alters specific Powers but 
> doesn't change the totals, it's Minor; if it changes point totals, it's 
> Major.) 
 
I can think of things which reduce costs that should be Minor (blinding, 
for example). Also, the rule about "no point increases" desperately needs 
to be reinstated. 
 
>    - Explosion should be +3/4 so it doesn't cost the same as AE: One Hex. 
 
The increased precision given by AE: One Hex balances the somewhat- 
increased damage of Explosion. Leave them the same. 
 
>    - Damage Shield should be clarified so that *any* significant contact, 
> including the character with DS making an attack against the target, will 
> cause damage. 
 
Rather, they should reiterate the fact that the character with DS making 
an attack against the target _doesn't_ cause damage. If you want to do 
that, buy a normal attack version. 
 
>    - Reduced END should be half END for +1/4, 1 END for +1/2, 0 END for 
> +3/4, and Persistent for +1. 
 
I don't see the point of the "1 END" level. 
 
I'd also codify the difference between Persistent and Uncontrolled. (My 
view: Persistent makes a Constant Power Persistent (duh:)), Uncontrolled 
makes a Constant Power Instant.) 
 
>    - Always On should have a variation where certain Limitations (END Cost, 
> Focus, etc.) represent how the Power is turned off with an effort. 
 
Good idea. 
 
>    - Extra Time should specify whether the time listed is including or in 
> addition to the half-phase needed to launch an attack with a Power. 
 
Better, they should include both the current version of Extra Time (a 
delay before the Power can be activated, but during which you can do other 
things) and the old version (actually increasing the type (or number) of 
action(s) you need to expend to activate the Power). 
 
>    - Linked should be fixed and specific.  My recommendation is to go with 
> the basic, existing -1/2 bonus to make both Powers used in proportion, 
> essentially being treated as a single Power for most purposes.  A character 
> could also have a "one-way" Link, letting one Power be used up to the level 
> that the other is, for -1/4.  Linked should still be applicable only to the 
> smaller Power (but please specify that this means Active Points). 
 
I agree, more or less. The current version of Linked, with a 
proportionality restriction added on ("this Power can only be used when 
Power X is used, at up to the same proportion of total power at which that 
one is used") should be demoted to -1/4. Add another -1/4 Limitation which 
states "this Power automatically goes off when Power X is used, at 
proportionate power level at least equal to that at which Power X is 
used". Combine these 2 and you have a -1/2 Limitation which works in the 
same way that most people currenlty play Linked. 
 
>    - DNPC should allow +5 points for every 2X individuals on one Roll. 
> Also allow DNCP Rolls of 5 or less (Rarely) for +0 points, and 17 or less 
> (Constantly) for +20 points. 
>    - Hunted, similarly, should allow Hunted Rolls of 5 or less (Rarely) for 
> -5 points, and 17 or less (Constantly) for +15 points. 
 
Maybe, but I'd put a caveat stating that the 17- level shouldn't be used 
unless the character in question is focal to the campaign. 14- is already 
really, really high. 
 
>    - Secret Identity should become simply Secret, with scales similar to 
> those used for Physical and Psychological Limitations. 
 
Would certainly improve its cross-genre utility. 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:31:42 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    - Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb.  My own 
> structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for lesser utility 
> (3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single tentacle 
> or prehensile tail). 
 
That was one of the silliest parts of the previous edition of Champions; I 
certainly have no desire to see it return. Building the 100-armed giants 
of Greek mythology should _not_ mandate a Power on the order of 1000 
points. 
 
>    - Flash, as mentioned elsewhere, should be 5 points per die, with each 
> BODY pip of Flash working for 1 segment.  (It makes Flash Defense more 
> balanced.) 
 
Sounds okay. 
 
>    - Force Field and Force Wall should have Flash Defense, Mental Defense, 
> and Power Defense methods built right in. 
 
Force Wall, maybe. Force Field would be pointless. (Just buy them Costs 
END.) 
 
>    - Hand-to-Hand Attack should *not* be omitted; this would leave us with 
> the old kludge of "+X STR, Only for Damage."  Use Opal's version instead. 
 
The old kludge works fine IMO. 
 
>    - Instant Change should be scaled.  (My scale is 5 pts = instant, 4 pts 
> = half Phase, 3 pts = Phase, 2 pts = Turn, 1 pt = minute, normal = 5 
> minutes, with all costs doubled for "any clothing.") 
 
What's the point? Just use Extra Time to simulate this. 
 
>    - Life Support should have some of its elements able to be broken down 
> even further, like 2 points for being immune to *either* heat *or* cold. 
 
You already can do this - LS: Extreme Temperatures, only vs heat(-1/2). 
Simple enough. 
 
> Also, 1-2 points for retarded aging is a cool idea. 
 
Same comment. 
 
>    - Stretching should be cheaper.  I like 2 points per 1", though this may 
> be an overreaction. 
 
Sounds reasonable. 
 
>    - Transform should be more specifically described as well, especially in 
> terms of what constitutes Cosmetic, Minor, and Major Transforms.  (I tend 
> to go with this:  if it doesn't affect the character sheet, it's Cosmetic; 
> if it shifts points around on the sheet or alters specific Powers but 
> doesn't change the totals, it's Minor; if it changes point totals, it's 
> Major.) 
 
I can think of things which reduce costs that should be Minor (blinding, 
for example). Also, the rule about "no point increases" desperately needs 
to be reinstated. 
 
>    - Explosion should be +3/4 so it doesn't cost the same as AE: One Hex. 
 
The increased precision given by AE: One Hex balances the somewhat- 
increased damage of Explosion. Leave them the same. 
 
>    - Damage Shield should be clarified so that *any* significant contact, 
> including the character with DS making an attack against the target, will 
> cause damage. 
 
Rather, they should reiterate the fact that the character with DS making 
an attack against the target _doesn't_ cause damage. If you want to do 
that, buy a normal attack version. 
 
>    - Reduced END should be half END for +1/4, 1 END for +1/2, 0 END for 
> +3/4, and Persistent for +1. 
 
I don't see the point of the "1 END" level. 
 
I'd also codify the difference between Persistent and Uncontrolled. (My 
view: Persistent makes a Constant Power Persistent (duh:)), Uncontrolled 
makes a Constant Power Instant.) 
 
>    - Always On should have a variation where certain Limitations (END Cost, 
> Focus, etc.) represent how the Power is turned off with an effort. 
 
Good idea. 
 
>    - Extra Time should specify whether the time listed is including or in 
> addition to the half-phase needed to launch an attack with a Power. 
 
Better, they should include both the current version of Extra Time (a 
delay before the Power can be activated, but during which you can do other 
things) and the old version (actually increasing the type (or number) of 
action(s) you need to expend to activate the Power). 
 
>    - Linked should be fixed and specific.  My recommendation is to go with 
> the basic, existing -1/2 bonus to make both Powers used in proportion, 
> essentially being treated as a single Power for most purposes.  A character 
> could also have a "one-way" Link, letting one Power be used up to the level 
> that the other is, for -1/4.  Linked should still be applicable only to the 
> smaller Power (but please specify that this means Active Points). 
 
I agree, more or less. The current version of Linked, with a 
proportionality restriction added on ("this Power can only be used when 
Power X is used, at up to the same proportion of total power at which that 
one is used") should be demoted to -1/4. Add another -1/4 Limitation which 
states "this Power automatically goes off when Power X is used, at 
proportionate power level at least equal to that at which Power X is 
used". Combine these 2 and you have a -1/2 Limitation which works in the 
same way that most people currenlty play Linked. 
 
>    - DNPC should allow +5 points for every 2X individuals on one Roll. 
> Also allow DNCP Rolls of 5 or less (Rarely) for +0 points, and 17 or less 
> (Constantly) for +20 points. 
>    - Hunted, similarly, should allow Hunted Rolls of 5 or less (Rarely) for 
> -5 points, and 17 or less (Constantly) for +15 points. 
 
Maybe, but I'd put a caveat stating that the 17- level shouldn't be used 
unless the character in question is focal to the campaign. 14- is already 
really, really high. 
 
>    - Secret Identity should become simply Secret, with scales similar to 
> those used for Physical and Psychological Limitations. 
 
Would certainly improve its cross-genre utility. 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:33:30 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Captain Spith wrote: 
 
>    Exactly!  The Entangle mechanics speak not to whether or not combat 
> actions take time or not, but rather to the mechanics of an Entangle.  I 
> believe it is loosely based on the 'casual STR' rule; 
 
More likely the other way around; the rules for escaping Entangles predate 
Casual STR. 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:33:30 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Captain Spith wrote: 
 
>    Exactly!  The Entangle mechanics speak not to whether or not combat 
> actions take time or not, but rather to the mechanics of an Entangle.  I 
> believe it is loosely based on the 'casual STR' rule; 
 
More likely the other way around; the rules for escaping Entangles predate 
Casual STR. 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 05:45:15 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
   It took a little while, but I've finally come up with a handful of the 
specific suggestions (most of them minor, and not all of them my own) that 
I have for adjusting the Hero System: 
 
   - Interrogation should not *necessarily* be violent.  In my campaign, an 
attorney can use Interrogation to prompt a witness that she doesn't think 
is telling the truth ("Need I remind you of the penalties for perjury?" and 
such).  Either that, or there should be a different Skill for this. 
   - Similarly seduction should not *necessarily* be sexual.  A person can 
be "seduced" by wealth, fame, and power.  (Arguably, of course, this could 
be represented with Bribery, though it seems to my mind closer to 
Seduction, semantically speaking.) 
 
   - Darkness, Images, and other Powers whose base forms affect a single 
sense but which can affect entire Sense Groups should be allowed to take +5 
points to affect a Sense Group without affecting only a single Sense. 
   - Energy Blast should not be allowed to be STUN Only for no bonus. 
Sure, the character doesn't have to worry about collateral damage that way, 
but this is relatively minor compared to the utility that's lost without 
the ability to do BODY damage (most specifically as affecting Entangles, 
robots, vehicles, and other inanimate objects). 
   - Enhanced Senses should include a Touch Sense Group. 
   - Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb.  My own 
structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for lesser utility 
(3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single tentacle 
or prehensile tail). 
   - Flash, as mentioned elsewhere, should be 5 points per die, with each 
BODY pip of Flash working for 1 segment.  (It makes Flash Defense more 
balanced.) 
   - Force Field and Force Wall should have Flash Defense, Mental Defense, 
and Power Defense methods built right in. 
   - Hand-to-Hand Attack should *not* be omitted; this would leave us with 
the old kludge of "+X STR, Only for Damage."  Use Opal's version instead. 
   - Instant Change should be scaled.  (My scale is 5 pts = instant, 4 pts 
= half Phase, 3 pts = Phase, 2 pts = Turn, 1 pt = minute, normal = 5 
minutes, with all costs doubled for "any clothing.") 
   - Life Support should have some of its elements able to be broken down 
even further, like 2 points for being immune to *either* heat *or* cold. 
Also, 1-2 points for retarded aging is a cool idea. 
   - Shrinking should include a "proportional STR" Limitation, say -1/4. 
   - Stretching should be cheaper.  I like 2 points per 1", though this may 
be an overreaction. 
   - Swinging should be specifically described as movement per Phase, not 
movement per swing. 
   - Transform should be more specifically described as well, especially in 
terms of what constitutes Cosmetic, Minor, and Major Transforms.  (I tend 
to go with this:  if it doesn't affect the character sheet, it's Cosmetic; 
if it shifts points around on the sheet or alters specific Powers but 
doesn't change the totals, it's Minor; if it changes point totals, it's 
Major.) 
 
   - Armor Piercing should be purchasable so that it can do more than just 
halve the target's defenses.  However, I do see why this was stopped in 4th 
ed.  I'd recommend charging an extra +1/4 for each level higher that the 
Armor Piercing can go (+1 1/4 to quarter defenses, +2 1/4 to reduce to 
one-eighth, etc.). 
   - Explosion should be +3/4 so it doesn't cost the same as AE: One Hex. 
(The old method of making AE: One Hex cost +1/4 wouldn't work, because then 
it would hit the proverbial floor if it's Nonselective.)  The Selective 
Target and Nonselective Target options for AE should also be available. 
   - Damage Shield should be clarified so that *any* significant contact, 
including the character with DS making an attack against the target, will 
cause damage. 
   - Reduced END should be half END for +1/4, 1 END for +1/2, 0 END for 
+3/4, and Persistent for +1. 
 
   - Activation Roll should go up to a required roll of 3 (which, at the 
rate of 2X the Limitation bonus per -3 to the roll, would be a -6 Limitation). 
   - Always On should have a variation where certain Limitations (END Cost, 
Focus, etc.) represent how the Power is turned off with an effort. 
   - Charges should be worth an extra +1/2 if the Power to which it's 
applied normally doesn't cost END (or +1 if the Charges cost END). 
   - Extra Time should specify whether the time listed is including or in 
addition to the half-phase needed to launch an attack with a Power. 
   - Linked should be fixed and specific.  My recommendation is to go with 
the basic, existing -1/2 bonus to make both Powers used in proportion, 
essentially being treated as a single Power for most purposes.  A character 
could also have a "one-way" Link, letting one Power be used up to the level 
that the other is, for -1/4.  Linked should still be applicable only to the 
smaller Power (but please specify that this means Active Points). 
 
   - Dependence should have a variation for Addiction.  Also, the number of 
dice should go on forever. 
   - DNPC should allow +5 points for every 2X individuals on one Roll. 
Also allow DNCP Rolls of 5 or less (Rarely) for +0 points, and 17 or less 
(Constantly) for +20 points. 
   - Hunted, similarly, should allow Hunted Rolls of 5 or less (Rarely) for 
-5 points, and 17 or less (Constantly) for +15 points. 
   - Public Identity should be replaced with Social Limitation, of which 
Public Identity can be one.  Use scales similar to those used for Physical 
and Psychological Limitations. 
   - Reputation should have modifiers for limited group -- say, -5 for a 
small group, +0 for a large group, +5 for the public at large. 
   - Secret Identity should become simply Secret, with scales similar to 
those used for Physical and Psychological Limitations. 
   - Susceptibility should have a variation for Allergy (using a similar 
structure for the Addiction variation on Dependence).  Also, the number 
dice should go on forever. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Originating-IP: [206.88.2.1] 
From: "Todd Hanson" <badtodd@hotmail.com> 
Subject: Re: Ha! I KNEW it! Magic is EVIL!! 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:46:20 CST 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Bob Greenwade says: 
 
>   Just as a point of fact: the actual "smug a-hole" who started it was 
>posting a bunch of derogatory comments about Christians. 
 
Umm.  No. 
 
the 'smug a-hole' who started this merely commented on the amusing fact  
that the Christian Broadcast Network has transferred it's 'D&D is evil'  
campaign to Magic.  Seeing as how this list has often discussed the fact  
that Magic has destroyed the role playing industry (as far as WE'RE  
concerned anyway), I thought others would find it amusing as well. 
 
There were no derogatory comments in my original post. The only  
reference to 'Christians' was that it was on CBN (the Christian  
Broadcast Network).  Anything else was solely in the minds of certain  
people who need to feel persecuted. 
 
This subject was only remotely related to this list to begin with. We've  
gone through the religious bullshit too many times already, and it  
doesn't belong here. Please drop it. 
 
 
Todd 
 
______________________________________________________ 
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:48:10 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Champions  5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Brian Wong wrote: 
 
> > > 1.    Add an advantage called "Advantaged" which would be the exact 
> > > counterpart to "Limited". 
> >  
> > Bad idea IMO. There's no need for it given an adequate set of Powers and 
> > Advantages. 
 
> 	But a list is never 'complete'. There's always something missing. 
 
The list in 4th Edition is; can you think of any effect which can't be 
generated with it? At any rate, the Advantage you propose would do nothing 
to help matters; saying "add more to the list if you feel like it" hardly 
makes the list more complete.  
 
> Such an advatage would make it easier to customize powers, and take such 
> a thing away from being a 'house rule advatage' to a 'tournament legal' 
> concept. 
 
I don't see the significance. 
 
> > > 7.    Steal a few of the advatages from GURPS, like Richocet. 
> >  
> > What would that be used for? 
 
> 	Allows you to bounce an attack off of a surface. 
 
You can do that by default in Hero, remember? Assuming special effects 
allow it, of course; I hardly think it's significant enough to merit an 
actual Modifier. 
 
> 	GURPS has about twice as many advantages for powers as Champions does. 
 
Sounds cumbersome. 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:48:10 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Champions  5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Brian Wong wrote: 
 
> > > 1.    Add an advantage called "Advantaged" which would be the exact 
> > > counterpart to "Limited". 
> >  
> > Bad idea IMO. There's no need for it given an adequate set of Powers and 
> > Advantages. 
 
> 	But a list is never 'complete'. There's always something missing. 
 
The list in 4th Edition is; can you think of any effect which can't be 
generated with it? At any rate, the Advantage you propose would do nothing 
to help matters; saying "add more to the list if you feel like it" hardly 
makes the list more complete.  
 
> Such an advatage would make it easier to customize powers, and take such 
> a thing away from being a 'house rule advatage' to a 'tournament legal' 
> concept. 
 
I don't see the significance. 
 
> > > 7.    Steal a few of the advatages from GURPS, like Richocet. 
> >  
> > What would that be used for? 
 
> 	Allows you to bounce an attack off of a surface. 
 
You can do that by default in Hero, remember? Assuming special effects 
allow it, of course; I hardly think it's significant enough to merit an 
actual Modifier. 
 
> 	GURPS has about twice as many advantages for powers as Champions does. 
 
Sounds cumbersome. 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:00:29 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Sparx wrote: 
 
> Yeah, my book fell apart and a nice letter to ICE got me a new BBB.  I found  
> this very professional and appreciated it greatly. 
 
Geez, good thing for ICE this didn't get out when they were publishing the 
BBB. Can you imagine the number of books they'd have to replace if 
everbody wanted this service? 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:00:29 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Sparx wrote: 
 
> Yeah, my book fell apart and a nice letter to ICE got me a new BBB.  I found  
> this very professional and appreciated it greatly. 
 
Geez, good thing for ICE this didn't get out when they were publishing the 
BBB. Can you imagine the number of books they'd have to replace if 
everbody wanted this service? 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:07:01 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:45 AM 12/15/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   It took a little while, but I've finally come up with a handful of the 
>specific suggestions (most of them minor, and not all of them my own) that 
>I have for adjusting the Hero System: 
> 
>   - Interrogation should not *necessarily* be violent.  In my campaign, an 
>attorney can use Interrogation to prompt a witness that she doesn't think 
>is telling the truth ("Need I remind you of the penalties for perjury?" and 
>such).  Either that, or there should be a different Skill for this. 
 
There already is: Persuasion.  I think Persuasion can be either pleasant or 
unpleasant as written. 
 
As I read it, Interrogation is the skill of MAKING someone answer a question 
against their will as opposed to merely convincing them to answer via either 
rational or emotional appeals -- theoretically useless to policemen, 
lawyers, etc., which is not to say some of them don't learn it anyways). 
 
>   - Similarly seduction should not *necessarily* be sexual.  A person can 
>be "seduced" by wealth, fame, and power.  (Arguably, of course, this could 
>be represented with Bribery, though it seems to my mind closer to 
>Seduction, semantically speaking.) 
 
I think Seduction might be swapped out in favor of a "Charm" skill to 
represent the general purpose "make someone like me". I don't mind expanding 
the focus of the skill, but the name becomes misleading after a while. 
 
>   - Stretching should be cheaper.  I like 2 points per 1", though this may 
>be an overreaction. 
 
No, that's what I use in my own games.  I think it's a more than fair price. 
 
>   - Swinging should be specifically described as movement per Phase, not 
>movement per swing. 
 
Hear, hear! 
 
>   - Transform should be more specifically described as well, especially in 
>terms of what constitutes Cosmetic, Minor, and Major Transforms.  (I tend 
>to go with this:  if it doesn't affect the character sheet, it's Cosmetic; 
>if it shifts points around on the sheet or alters specific Powers but 
>doesn't change the totals, it's Minor; if it changes point totals, it's 
>Major.) 
 
For my own part, if it changes totals by up to 15 points (the value of +/-3 
CV), it's Minor.  Otherwise ... 
 
>   - Extra Time should specify whether the time listed is including or in 
>addition to the half-phase needed to launch an attack with a Power. 
 
And should probably be the latter.  After all, if I make a power "Extra 
Time: Full Phase", then include the attack time, I'm really only spending a 
-half- Phase to activate it. 
 
Add "Extra Time: 1/2 Phase" (aka "Full Phase Action") for -1/4. 
 
>   - Dependence should have a variation for Addiction.  Also, the number of 
>dice should go on forever. 
 
Actually, it's not that hard to make Dependences work for Addictions.  Buy 
it as normal, and treat the "attack" of each +1d6 as +2d6 Mind Control: Do 
The Drug. 
 
>   - Public Identity should be replaced with Social Limitation, of which 
>Public Identity can be one.  Use scales similar to those used for Physical 
>and Psychological Limitations. 
>   - Reputation should have modifiers for limited group -- say, -5 for a 
>small group, +0 for a large group, +5 for the public at large. 
 
It might also include a halving element (such as Watched or Enraged) if the 
Reputation is primarily positive.  Maybe. 
 
>   - Secret Identity should become simply Secret, with scales similar to 
>those used for Physical and Psychological Limitations. 
 
Yes! Yes! 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:07:01 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:45 AM 12/15/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   It took a little while, but I've finally come up with a handful of the 
>specific suggestions (most of them minor, and not all of them my own) that 
>I have for adjusting the Hero System: 
> 
>   - Interrogation should not *necessarily* be violent.  In my campaign, an 
>attorney can use Interrogation to prompt a witness that she doesn't think 
>is telling the truth ("Need I remind you of the penalties for perjury?" and 
>such).  Either that, or there should be a different Skill for this. 
 
There already is: Persuasion.  I think Persuasion can be either pleasant or 
unpleasant as written. 
 
As I read it, Interrogation is the skill of MAKING someone answer a question 
against their will as opposed to merely convincing them to answer via either 
rational or emotional appeals -- theoretically useless to policemen, 
lawyers, etc., which is not to say some of them don't learn it anyways). 
 
>   - Similarly seduction should not *necessarily* be sexual.  A person can 
>be "seduced" by wealth, fame, and power.  (Arguably, of course, this could 
>be represented with Bribery, though it seems to my mind closer to 
>Seduction, semantically speaking.) 
 
I think Seduction might be swapped out in favor of a "Charm" skill to 
represent the general purpose "make someone like me". I don't mind expanding 
the focus of the skill, but the name becomes misleading after a while. 
 
>   - Stretching should be cheaper.  I like 2 points per 1", though this may 
>be an overreaction. 
 
No, that's what I use in my own games.  I think it's a more than fair price. 
 
>   - Swinging should be specifically described as movement per Phase, not 
>movement per swing. 
 
Hear, hear! 
 
>   - Transform should be more specifically described as well, especially in 
>terms of what constitutes Cosmetic, Minor, and Major Transforms.  (I tend 
>to go with this:  if it doesn't affect the character sheet, it's Cosmetic; 
>if it shifts points around on the sheet or alters specific Powers but 
>doesn't change the totals, it's Minor; if it changes point totals, it's 
>Major.) 
 
For my own part, if it changes totals by up to 15 points (the value of +/-3 
CV), it's Minor.  Otherwise ... 
 
>   - Extra Time should specify whether the time listed is including or in 
>addition to the half-phase needed to launch an attack with a Power. 
 
And should probably be the latter.  After all, if I make a power "Extra 
Time: Full Phase", then include the attack time, I'm really only spending a 
-half- Phase to activate it. 
 
Add "Extra Time: 1/2 Phase" (aka "Full Phase Action") for -1/4. 
 
>   - Dependence should have a variation for Addiction.  Also, the number of 
>dice should go on forever. 
 
Actually, it's not that hard to make Dependences work for Addictions.  Buy 
it as normal, and treat the "attack" of each +1d6 as +2d6 Mind Control: Do 
The Drug. 
 
>   - Public Identity should be replaced with Social Limitation, of which 
>Public Identity can be one.  Use scales similar to those used for Physical 
>and Psychological Limitations. 
>   - Reputation should have modifiers for limited group -- say, -5 for a 
>small group, +0 for a large group, +5 for the public at large. 
 
It might also include a halving element (such as Watched or Enraged) if the 
Reputation is primarily positive.  Maybe. 
 
>   - Secret Identity should become simply Secret, with scales similar to 
>those used for Physical and Psychological Limitations. 
 
Yes! Yes! 
 
-- 
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:09:50 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:02 AM 12/15/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>> >>   One "simplified" way to handle Acrobatics in combat is to have the 
player 
>> >> make an Acrobatics Skill Roll for his PC, and use the Complementary 
>> Skill roll 
>> >> rules. I.e., for every 2 full points he makes the roll by, give him +1 
>> Combat 
>> >> Level to be applied to OCV or DCV (player's choice) for that 
Action/Phase. 
>> >> What do you think? 
>> > 
>> >That has the potential to become highly unbalancing for a three point 
>> >skill. 
>> > 
>> >Any DEX 29-31 martial artist will have a 15- Acrobatics and since the 
>> >average of 3d6 is 11, routinely get +2 to his CV *every* Phase.  For only 
>> >3 points! 
>>  
>>    I think it could still work if a failure means that the character falls 
>> his Acrobatics Roll, cannot make an attack that Phase, is at half DCV, and 
>> must spend a half Phase the next Phase to get up. 
> 
>Then also consider this, 14- is close to (or above) 75%, while 15- is 
>hitting 90% (I think).  In most 250 point martial artists have DEX of 24+, 
>usually 26+, meaning that they will be getting a nice bennie at *low* 
>risk.  If you want that, buy some CSLs with a limitations "must make 
>Acrobatics roll". 
 
   While I do think that this is generally be better solution, consider 
that the penalty for failure can be quite high.  Even Seeker would probably 
be in deep doo-doo against Giganto under the circumstances I described 
above. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:11:23 -0700 
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
Subject: Re: Storm, Iron Man and the wimpy X-Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Filksinger wrote: 
>  
> On Friday, December 12, 1997 9:28 AM, GoldRushG wrote: 
>  
> >   Besides, everyone knows Spider-Man could whomp every one of those 
> losers, 
> >anyway! <LOL> 
>  
> YES. 
>  
> Back in the Secret Wars, Spiderman overheard the X-Men's plan to join 
> Magneto. He tried to turn them in, and would have succeeded with ease 
> if it hadn't been for Prof. X making him forget. IIRC, Wolverine 
> refereed to it as "kicking our butts!" 
>  
> Filksinger 
 
Then there is the one fight I remember that gave me new respect for 
spidey. I don't recall the set up, but he was being chased by Firelord 
(the Herald of Galactus). He tried to get help from every major 
superteam in NYC, then when none of them were in, finally turned on 
Firelord and started to fight him. When all of the teams that he had 
gone to for help showed up, there was the unconcious form of Firelord 
with Spidey over him, gasping for breath. The reaction shots of the 
Avengers and FF at Spiderman having taken out a herald of Galactus is 
pricelss. 
 
--  
-Mhoram 
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 
 two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:11:30 -0500 (EST) 
From: dq831@freenet.carleton.ca (Jamie Rosen) 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Reply-To: dq831@freenet.carleton.ca 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> 
><< Major Mistake. The powers rules have many applications outside of 
>Super Powers. I think the Hero system rulebook should be the same size as 
>it was in 4th edition.>> 
> 
>  My bad. I think the plan *was* (or, rather, *is*) to have all the character 
>creation rules (including the "powers") in the Hero System Rules book, and 
>treat the Champions book as the campaign book (perhaps with a few extra 
>goodies, and certainly plenty of clear examples!). 
 
One thing I'd like to see (and th is goes for pretty much every campaign 
book for every game) is a section on PbeMing.  Most of these books have a 
section on 'how to roleplay in genre x, or world x', and I think that 
including a section on playing over the 'net would be emminently useful. 
 
-- 
Jamie Rosen - author, bad seed, and layabout on rec.arts.comics.creative 
------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Mistake is just experience in the present tense. 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:12:48 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:50 AM 12/15/97 -0800, Captain Spith wrote: 
>>    I think it could still work if a failure means that the character falls 
>> his Acrobatics Roll, cannot make an attack that Phase, is at half DCV, and 
>> must spend a half Phase the next Phase to get up. 
> 
>   I believe there should be consequences for failure, but that seems 
>like a lot.  I would think the 1/2DCV and loss of the rest of the phase 
>would be sufficient, I wouldn't carry over to the next phase unless an 
>18 were rolled. 
 
   I was just figuring that if he falls, he falls, and has to get up.  (Of 
course, if he *wants* to stay down, he can.  It might even be advisable, 
like if the brick behind his opponent is winding up a haymaker...) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart! 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 09:16:34 -0500 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 12/14/97 6:03 PM, GoldRushG (GoldRushG@aol.com) Said: 
 
>Are there still a lot of folks left who don't have 
>replacements for their old Champs hardcover? 
 
I took the first 4thEd Hardcaver, after it fell apart & put it in a three  
ring binder. Then I bought the HSR in softcover. Then I bought the 4thED  
softcover. The I bought Champions Deluxe in Hardcover. 
 
I'm a junkie. 
 
I need a fix. 
 
When's that San Angelo thing coming out again... 
 
                                         |  David A. Fair 
        Think Different                  |  SDS International 
                                         |  dfair@sdslink.com 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:26:36 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Gold Rush Games Mailing List??? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:28 AM 12/15/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote: 
> Hey, that's better than I got it. I go to the store here in San 
>Francisco (Gamescape on Divisadero) and ask for Ultimate Martial Artist on 
>disk and get: 
> 
> "doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business." 
> 
   [Sensible Action #1 clipped] 
> 
> "doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business." 
> 
   [Sensible Action #2 clipped] 
> 
> "doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business." 
> 
   [Theoretical Sensible Action clipped] 
> 
> "doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business." 
 
   Since you live in the same general area, maybe you should email Bruce 
Harlick and have him go down there and explain things to the people there. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:28:56 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:07 AM 12/15/97 EST, Pat10355 wrote: 
>Hello, 
> 
>I've just joined the mailing list and I wanted to quickly introduce myself. 
>I'm Patrick Sweeney, a Champions player since the very first edition and the 
>author of the forthcoming San Angelo: City of Heroes campaign book from Gold 
>Rush Games. 
> 
>I can tell this is an extremely active list -- I've already gotten several 
>dozen e-mails and I only joined a couple of days ago. 
> 
>No big queries or commentary yet ... I expect you'll have some for me once 
the 
>book comes out in January, and I'm looking forward to your feedback. I just 
>wanted to say hi. Oh, and to apologize for accidentally sending my subscribe 
>message to the mailing list instead of the owner. <doh!> 
 
   Welcome, Patrick! 
   Hey fellow Listers, what do you think of this?  We've been languishing 
for years with little or no official presence on the list, and now we have 
a publisher (Mark), someone with a book in press (Patrick) and one with a 
book in process (me).  Is this list getting better, or what?   :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:34:33 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 06:18 PM 12/15/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
>>    But you *can't* apply the Limitation to the larger Power; that is quite 
>> explicitly stated. 
> 
> I would suggest that that particlur rule was placed to stop people  
>saying "I have a 3d6 flash.  I will link my 12d6 energy blast to it.  -1/2 
on  
>the energy blast, thanks" 
 
   Precisely.  So how would you work such a construct where the Flash 
always went off with the EB? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:35:20 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: That's What I Want... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
> Because Absorption doesn't _block_ or 'redirect' damage like armor or force 
> fields. It _transforms_ it from damaging 'power' to useful 'power'. It 
> should never have a _chance_ to do damage! 
 
Whether your armour/force field "blocks damage", "redirects damage", 
"absorbs damage", "transforms damage", "prevents the attack from ever 
having a chance to do damage", or whatever else is strictly a matter of 
SFX. The result is the same: your character suffers less damage. 
 
> To show how _bad_ the 'armor up to absorption roll' idea is, let's consider 
> knockback. Why, if 'effectively' I've just 'absorbed' an attack, should I 
> take any knockback from it? That's right, I shouldn't. So I not only have to 
> buy and Armor kludge, but a Knockback Resistance kludge as well! 
 
There's no kludge involved. If you want to gain character points from 
attacks, and take less damage from attacks, and take less knockback from 
attacks, then you need to buy Absorption, and a defense, and KB 
Resistance. That just stands to reason. 
 
> PLUS, look at the costs involved. Absorption = 5 points/die. Aid = 5 points 
> per die. I'm paying (currently) AS MUCH as I am for Aid, while getting: 
 
Okay, but Aid is completely broken at 5/die, so saying that Absorption is 
weaker than it doesn't carry much weight. Try comparing it to 10/die Aid. 
 
> Sorry, but IMO, the '0 END' componant of Absorption DOES NOT balance out the 
> two other conditions. Why does Absorption EXIST AT ALL??? I could just as 
> easily do this: 
>  
> XD6 Aid, 0 END (+1/2), Persistant (+1/2), Only when hit by a power fitting 
> 'Y' SFX (-1/2), Dice of Aid limited by DC of attack (-1/2). 
> 
> It's virtually the SAME construct, with the same conditions. Please, if you 
> can, _justify_ to me the existance of Absorption at all, given that it 
> operates identically to this Aid construct. 
 
Except that Absorption isn't limited to a certain special effect (though 
that's a common Limitation on Absorption, of course) and putting 
"Persistent" on an Instant Power is nonsense.  
 
> Now, back to Absorption acting in a 'damage transformation' manner. Watch 
> how easy this is: for every die of Absorption, you REMOVE one DC of damage 
> from the attack. So if someone with 8D6 Absorption gets hit with a 10D6 
> attack, only 2 damage dice are rolled - everything else gets 'absorbed'. 
> Then, you roll the dice of absorption (up to the maximum) to find out how 
> many 'CPs' are absorbed. 
 
Good grief. If you allowed this monstrosity into a game, what 
justification would _Armour_ have to exist? 
 
> Clean, simple, and actually has a reason for existance - but don't mistake 
> it for a cheap defense!! It's JUST as expensive as Energy Blast, on a dice 
> for dice basis. Buying 12D6 Absorption is as expensive as buying 40 points 
> of Resistant PD or ED, or 60 points of non-resistant. 40 rPD will stop a 4D6 
> RKA or 12D6 Energy Blast just as cold, though it has admittedly little 
> effect on Knockback. 
 
A) An _average_ roll on a 12D6 Energy Blast does 42 STUN, and it can do a 
lot more, so this construction hardly gives comparable defense to Armour - 
it gives superior defense. 
B) If it _did_ give equal defense, that would in and of itself prove that 
the construction is broken beyond belief. For 60 points, I can either stop 
attacks up to a certain level, or stop attacks up to that level _and_ get 
character points from them _and_ negate the knock-back too... gee, that's 
a tough choice. 
 
> An additional note on the 'armor up to absorption roll' - it isn't enough. 
> If I've got 12D6 Absorption, I doubt I'll ever see an absorption roll over 
> 12. 
 
Huh? Did you mean to write 2D6? Or are you under the mistaken impression 
that you only count the BODY rolled on the absorption dice? (Even if so, 
claiming that you'll never see a roll higher than 12 is pretty ludicrous.) 
 
> Considering that a _lot_ of the absorbtion going on in comic books is 
> 'total', an extra 12 rPD just doesn't cut it. I'd need a HUGE Absorption to 
> get the additional defenses 'required' to simulate the effect. 
 
<shrug> So buy it with the Limitation "only up to thrice the dice rolled", 
or with no Limitation at all if you like; you can still say the special 
effect of your defense is that you're "absorbing" the attack. 
 
> Can you not understand the meaning of the word Absorb? 
 
Can you not understand that the name of the Power tells you pretty much 
_nothing_ about what the Power is used for? This is pretty basic to 
understanding the Hero System. 
 
> And - if you don't want your Absorb to negate damage, why, you could buy 
> a limitation to that effect, right in the power! <gasp!> Instead of 
> buying TWO powers (three, if you include Knockback) to 'kludge' a true 
> Absorptive effect, why not have ONE power that you could just limit for 
> discrete effects? 
 
Because "one Power, one effect" is a pretty solid rule of thumb for Power 
design? It's a hell of a lot easier and more elegant to be able to build 
the effect you want from simple, relatively atomic Powers than it is to 
have to smash Powers apart and recombine them. 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:35:20 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: That's What I Want... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
> Because Absorption doesn't _block_ or 'redirect' damage like armor or force 
> fields. It _transforms_ it from damaging 'power' to useful 'power'. It 
> should never have a _chance_ to do damage! 
 
Whether your armour/force field "blocks damage", "redirects damage", 
"absorbs damage", "transforms damage", "prevents the attack from ever 
having a chance to do damage", or whatever else is strictly a matter of 
SFX. The result is the same: your character suffers less damage. 
 
> To show how _bad_ the 'armor up to absorption roll' idea is, let's consider 
> knockback. Why, if 'effectively' I've just 'absorbed' an attack, should I 
> take any knockback from it? That's right, I shouldn't. So I not only have to 
> buy and Armor kludge, but a Knockback Resistance kludge as well! 
 
There's no kludge involved. If you want to gain character points from 
attacks, and take less damage from attacks, and take less knockback from 
attacks, then you need to buy Absorption, and a defense, and KB 
Resistance. That just stands to reason. 
 
> PLUS, look at the costs involved. Absorption = 5 points/die. Aid = 5 points 
> per die. I'm paying (currently) AS MUCH as I am for Aid, while getting: 
 
Okay, but Aid is completely broken at 5/die, so saying that Absorption is 
weaker than it doesn't carry much weight. Try comparing it to 10/die Aid. 
 
> Sorry, but IMO, the '0 END' componant of Absorption DOES NOT balance out the 
> two other conditions. Why does Absorption EXIST AT ALL??? I could just as 
> easily do this: 
>  
> XD6 Aid, 0 END (+1/2), Persistant (+1/2), Only when hit by a power fitting 
> 'Y' SFX (-1/2), Dice of Aid limited by DC of attack (-1/2). 
> 
> It's virtually the SAME construct, with the same conditions. Please, if you 
> can, _justify_ to me the existance of Absorption at all, given that it 
> operates identically to this Aid construct. 
 
Except that Absorption isn't limited to a certain special effect (though 
that's a common Limitation on Absorption, of course) and putting 
"Persistent" on an Instant Power is nonsense.  
 
> Now, back to Absorption acting in a 'damage transformation' manner. Watch 
> how easy this is: for every die of Absorption, you REMOVE one DC of damage 
> from the attack. So if someone with 8D6 Absorption gets hit with a 10D6 
> attack, only 2 damage dice are rolled - everything else gets 'absorbed'. 
> Then, you roll the dice of absorption (up to the maximum) to find out how 
> many 'CPs' are absorbed. 
 
Good grief. If you allowed this monstrosity into a game, what 
justification would _Armour_ have to exist? 
 
> Clean, simple, and actually has a reason for existance - but don't mistake 
> it for a cheap defense!! It's JUST as expensive as Energy Blast, on a dice 
> for dice basis. Buying 12D6 Absorption is as expensive as buying 40 points 
> of Resistant PD or ED, or 60 points of non-resistant. 40 rPD will stop a 4D6 
> RKA or 12D6 Energy Blast just as cold, though it has admittedly little 
> effect on Knockback. 
 
A) An _average_ roll on a 12D6 Energy Blast does 42 STUN, and it can do a 
lot more, so this construction hardly gives comparable defense to Armour - 
it gives superior defense. 
B) If it _did_ give equal defense, that would in and of itself prove that 
the construction is broken beyond belief. For 60 points, I can either stop 
attacks up to a certain level, or stop attacks up to that level _and_ get 
character points from them _and_ negate the knock-back too... gee, that's 
a tough choice. 
 
> An additional note on the 'armor up to absorption roll' - it isn't enough. 
> If I've got 12D6 Absorption, I doubt I'll ever see an absorption roll over 
> 12. 
 
Huh? Did you mean to write 2D6? Or are you under the mistaken impression 
that you only count the BODY rolled on the absorption dice? (Even if so, 
claiming that you'll never see a roll higher than 12 is pretty ludicrous.) 
 
> Considering that a _lot_ of the absorbtion going on in comic books is 
> 'total', an extra 12 rPD just doesn't cut it. I'd need a HUGE Absorption to 
> get the additional defenses 'required' to simulate the effect. 
 
<shrug> So buy it with the Limitation "only up to thrice the dice rolled", 
or with no Limitation at all if you like; you can still say the special 
effect of your defense is that you're "absorbing" the attack. 
 
> Can you not understand the meaning of the word Absorb? 
 
Can you not understand that the name of the Power tells you pretty much 
_nothing_ about what the Power is used for? This is pretty basic to 
understanding the Hero System. 
 
> And - if you don't want your Absorb to negate damage, why, you could buy 
> a limitation to that effect, right in the power! <gasp!> Instead of 
> buying TWO powers (three, if you include Knockback) to 'kludge' a true 
> Absorptive effect, why not have ONE power that you could just limit for 
> discrete effects? 
 
Because "one Power, one effect" is a pretty solid rule of thumb for Power 
design? It's a hell of a lot easier and more elegant to be able to build 
the effect you want from simple, relatively atomic Powers than it is to 
have to smash Powers apart and recombine them. 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:42:16 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Slipperiness 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:54 PM 12/14/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote: 
>>  
>> At 03:49 PM 12/13/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>> >I'm all for the 5th ed. In addition to the various suggestions people have 
>> >already made, I hope it includes either a "slipperiness" power or a 
>> >revised Change Environment that can make an icy surface with combat 
>> >effects. (My pet peeve.)  
>>  
>>    While assembling TUSV, I found a need to define some Power to do this. 
>> I settled on a Minor Transform to change regular ground into slippery 
>> ground.  The SFX could be ice, an oil slick, or something else.  (I even 
>> have a sample vehicle with an icy slick device.) 
> 
> Transform to do it reads like a 'hack' though. Since transform 
>requires overcoming the targets Body. 
> How much body does thin air have? Or a sidewalk? 
 
   Thin air has no BODY (or the BODY of what you're trying to transform it 
into), but then again, who ever heard of "slippery air"? 
   As for sidewalk, HSR page 177 lists "dirt (per hex)" as having 16 BODY, 
and I'd do the same for paved ground (with higher DEF, just the same BODY). 
 
>It really does need a new power. A sort of 'reverse entangle'. 
 
   I disagree here, since I've found a way to do it that works (at least, 
IMO). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:46:18 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: That's What I Want... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
> >  I would suggest (for the time being) that you buy the 20 Pt. "Bunch of 
> >Forms" power, and then give it a Limitation: Only 2 Forms (-1/2). Does that 
> >work for you? 
 
This is definitely the most elegant approach IMO. 
 
> No, it wouldn't. I'm very tempted to say that Shapeshifting is 'too cheap'. 
> I'd like the list to discuss this idea. 
 
Considering that it literally does nothing in game-mechanical terms, I 
don't think it's too cheap. A pumped-up version of Disguise is nice, but 
not all that awesome (and for some uses, you even still need Disguise). 
 
> Shapeshift: 20 points for a single form. +2 points per additional form, +10 
> points for a limited 'group', +10 points for a broad 'group', +10 points for 
> any shape. 
 
I'd leave single form at 10 pts, but the modifiers look reasonable; 
increased granularity is generally a good thing. 
 
> This is, of course, a more expensive construct (not necessarily bad, as 
> Shapeshifting is darn useful and fairly rare, comic-wise), but it's got 
> lots greater resolution - I'd prefer added resolution than added 
> Limitations.  
>  
> For example, I'd like to buy the DEF and Dice of Entangles separately 
 
Good idea. 
 
> I want Absorption to be able to operate as a defense without resorting to 
> an Armor kludge. 
 
Note that this is the exact opposite of your earlier requests; you now 
want less resolution and more Limitations. 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:46:18 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: That's What I Want... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
> >  I would suggest (for the time being) that you buy the 20 Pt. "Bunch of 
> >Forms" power, and then give it a Limitation: Only 2 Forms (-1/2). Does that 
> >work for you? 
 
This is definitely the most elegant approach IMO. 
 
> No, it wouldn't. I'm very tempted to say that Shapeshifting is 'too cheap'. 
> I'd like the list to discuss this idea. 
 
Considering that it literally does nothing in game-mechanical terms, I 
don't think it's too cheap. A pumped-up version of Disguise is nice, but 
not all that awesome (and for some uses, you even still need Disguise). 
 
> Shapeshift: 20 points for a single form. +2 points per additional form, +10 
> points for a limited 'group', +10 points for a broad 'group', +10 points for 
> any shape. 
 
I'd leave single form at 10 pts, but the modifiers look reasonable; 
increased granularity is generally a good thing. 
 
> This is, of course, a more expensive construct (not necessarily bad, as 
> Shapeshifting is darn useful and fairly rare, comic-wise), but it's got 
> lots greater resolution - I'd prefer added resolution than added 
> Limitations.  
>  
> For example, I'd like to buy the DEF and Dice of Entangles separately 
 
Good idea. 
 
> I want Absorption to be able to operate as a defense without resorting to 
> an Armor kludge. 
 
Note that this is the exact opposite of your earlier requests; you now 
want less resolution and more Limitations. 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:49:16 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Slipperiness 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 06:31 PM 12/15/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote: 
>I think one thing you may have missed would be some sort of  
>reduction in movement and accelleration.  Little or nor traction would  
>mean the tires/feet/etc woudl be moving like hell but not getting very  
>far. 
 
   This is what I currently have down for the effect of a Slick.  Tell me 
what you think. 
 
   If the Transform is successful, then the ground becomes slippery. 
Characters and vehicles using Ground Movement must make a DEX Roll at -3 
(or a Combat Vehicle Operations or similar Roll at no penalty) when 
entering the hex or lose control (see Chapter Three for more details on 
this).  Even if this Roll is successful, a second Roll at -2 (in addition 
to any other Modifiers) must be made if the character or vehicle attempts 
to accelerate, decelerate, or turn while in the affected area. 
   At the GM's option, every BODY pip above the 16 needed to successfully 
enact the Transform, up to the maximum that can be rolled on the dice, adds 
another -1 to the DEX or Combat Vehicle Operations Rolls. 
 
   Point of Clarification: Combat Vehicle Operations means either Combat 
Driving, Combat Piloting, or an equivalent Skill (like Combat Robot 
Operations). 
   I'm thinking of adding a provision where targets using feet for 
transportation would also have to make a DEX or Combat Vehicle Operations 
Roll every Phase. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:52:38 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:02 AM 12/15/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote: 
>> take what I post as gospel even if you'd take TUSV itself as such. 
> 
> Am I the only one who keeps wanting to read that as 
>"The Ultimate Super Villian"? 
> Which in itself may make for a justifiable book. 
 
   I think Chris Avellone's working on something like that.  The last I 
heard, it was being called "Essential Villainy." 
   I don't know the status on it, though; it may have been abandoned, or 
put on a long-term status (like Patrick Bradley's Pirate Hero). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:55:31 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
> >It isn't. Given that Rogue can be overwhelmed by a mental midget like 
> >Juggernaut and given that Thor, when his personality was absorbed by the 
> >Destroyer and even the freaking Demogorge, was able to assert control, I 
> >have difficulty believing she could successfully handle Thor. 
> > 
> Well, I was under the delusion (I suppose) that it wouldn't be Thor's 
> ability to "assert control," it would simply be the personality clash.  It 
> may still depend upon strength of personality, but still...  she's not 
> absorbing their souls.  (AFAIK) 
 
I'd always sort of assumed that the strength of the personality absorbed 
was an important factor in determining whether she was able to maintain 
control, but I'll admit I haven't seen anything canonically stating this. 
 
> >> Wasn't there a time where she absorbed Colossus, Nightcrawler, and Kitty 
> >> Pryde's powers to beat some big baddy?  Was that the Brood? 
> > 
> >That's why I explicitly referred to her trying to absorb an _adversary_. 
> > 
> Again, I didn't think this made a difference. 
 
Well, when absorbing a teamate the risk of having her personality 
supplanted isn't really an issue... they're going to have the same 
immediate goals she has, most likely. 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:55:31 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
> >It isn't. Given that Rogue can be overwhelmed by a mental midget like 
> >Juggernaut and given that Thor, when his personality was absorbed by the 
> >Destroyer and even the freaking Demogorge, was able to assert control, I 
> >have difficulty believing she could successfully handle Thor. 
> > 
> Well, I was under the delusion (I suppose) that it wouldn't be Thor's 
> ability to "assert control," it would simply be the personality clash.  It 
> may still depend upon strength of personality, but still...  she's not 
> absorbing their souls.  (AFAIK) 
 
I'd always sort of assumed that the strength of the personality absorbed 
was an important factor in determining whether she was able to maintain 
control, but I'll admit I haven't seen anything canonically stating this. 
 
> >> Wasn't there a time where she absorbed Colossus, Nightcrawler, and Kitty 
> >> Pryde's powers to beat some big baddy?  Was that the Brood? 
> > 
> >That's why I explicitly referred to her trying to absorb an _adversary_. 
> > 
> Again, I didn't think this made a difference. 
 
Well, when absorbing a teamate the risk of having her personality 
supplanted isn't really an issue... they're going to have the same 
immediate goals she has, most likely. 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:56:52 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Ninjato 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Len Carpenter wrote: 
 
> I agree that the ninjato doesn't deserve a +1 STUN multiplier.  The typical 
> ninjato likely doesn't deserve a +1 OCV bonus either, unlike a high-quality 
> katana or wakizashi forged with exquisite skill. 
 
When my group rewrote the weapons lists, we dumped all OCV bonuses for all 
weapons, unless the weapon was very quick (like a rapier of jien) of hard 
to block (like a flail).  OTOH, the +1 OCV for a sword is more a question 
of balance then how well the sword was made.  If the sword is well 
balanced and and handles well, then it will be fairly easy to use, thus 
the +1 OCV 
  
> I like to give the quality swords favored by knights and swashbuckler the +1 
> OCV.  To balance the sword's advantage, I grant a +1 STUN multiplier to heavy 
> battle axes to better reflect the crushing power of such weapons in addition 
> to their cutting power.  A +1 STUN mult I give to common hammers, maces, and 
> flails, while the heaviest of such weapons receives a +2 STUN mult.  So a 
> knight wearing heavy jousting armor capable of absorbing lots of BODY can 
> still get his bell rung by a two-handed flail. 
 
I would argue that European swords are pretty much the same quality across 
the board for the most part.   
 
Anyway, axes should have the AP advantage, since they purpose is to chop 
through armor.  One gets the impresion from some of the older Norse sagas 
that the axe was a very sharp weapon with great cutting power, not 
crushing power. 
 
I would disagree with giving almost any weapon a +2 Stun Multiple. 
 
I would also like to point out that *no one* fouhgt in 'jousting armor'. 
Armor for tilting at the list was just that, sport armor for the joust. 
This stuff was very thick (up to an 1" of overlapping plates) and rigidly 
locked togther.  I doubt that hitting someone with a heavly flail would 
incapacitate them as badly a you are picturing in your example. 
 
Note: when you say 'heavy jousting armor' I presume you are refering to 
the fill suits of plate from the 16th and 17th century.  Before that, the 
knight wore his usualy gear with a few add ons. 
 
> I have another suggestion for hand-and-a-half weapons.  Provided the 
> character has the STR min to wield the weapon one-handed, if he chooses to 
> wield it with both hands, he gets a +1 Damage Class bonus when gripping it 
> two-handed--in a sense, the STR min for swinging it with two hands is reduced 
> by 5.   
 
But the STR min of using a hand-and-a-half weapon does go down if you use 
it two handed, allowing one to usually get that extra DC in combat.  Check 
Fantasy Hero and the BBB. 
 
> It gives a further option to characters.  A knight who forgoes using a 
> shield and swings his bastard sword with both hands gets to do a little extra 
> damage, trading a defensive benefit for an offensive one.  A samurai trained 
> in two-sword fighting (WF: Off-Hand) who chooses to leave his wakizashi 
> sheathed to wield his katana two-handed does a bit more damage with his 
> primary blade, while losing the DCV bonus, the flexibility of Binding with 
> one weapon while striking with the other, and the possibility of surprise 
> attacks with the secondary weapon. 
 
Agreed. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:58:47 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Brian Wong wrote: 
 
> > >   Often times what I let my players do is give me "comparisons" I can relate 
> > > to. Things like "I do a double back-flip like Jackie Chan did in that one 
> > > scene in Armor of God VII" and I say "Okay. Make your roll."  ;) 
> >  
> > No way man, Jackie vs Bennie in "Dragons Forever"! 
> >  
> 	Naw, the scene in City Hunter where he gets slammed into a video 
> game machine and comes out as the girl in Street Fighter II (but the actor 
> still being Jackie), then the other guy turns into Ken and starts shooting 
> blasts at him. 
 
Jackie Chan as Chun Li, Richard Norton as Ken.  Alonng the way, Jackie, 
Richard and some extras show up as everyone else too... complete with 
fireballs and sonic booms. 
 
> 	But I don't know if that one's been brought over into english yet. I 
> saw it in Chinese while living in asia. 
 
Saw a dubbed copy a long time ago. 
 
Okay, for acrobatics in a fight: Jackie Chan vs Ken Lo in Drunken Master 
II! 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:59:44 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Ha! I KNEW it! Magic is EVIL!! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:46 AM 12/15/97 CST, Todd Hanson wrote: 
>>   Just as a point of fact: the actual "smug a-hole" who started it was 
>>posting a bunch of derogatory comments about Christians. 
> 
>Umm.  No. 
> 
>the 'smug a-hole' who started this merely commented on the amusing fact  
>that the Christian Broadcast Network has transferred it's 'D&D is evil'  
>campaign to Magic.  Seeing as how this list has often discussed the fact  
>that Magic has destroyed the role playing industry (as far as WE'RE  
>concerned anyway), I thought others would find it amusing as well. 
 
   I hope you understand, Todd, that my use of the phrase "smug a-hole" was 
a sarcastic quoting of another's phrase.  I in no way consider you as such. 
 
>There were no derogatory comments in my original post. The only  
>reference to 'Christians' was that it was on CBN (the Christian  
>Broadcast Network).  Anything else was solely in the minds of certain  
>people who need to feel persecuted. 
 
   I need to apologize on this count.  I should have said, "comments that 
were taken as derogatory."  My bad. 
 
>This subject was only remotely related to this list to begin with. We've  
>gone through the religious bullshit too many times already, and it  
>doesn't belong here. Please drop it. 
 
   Agreed.  I only posted this publicly because I felt that these two 
remarks needed to be cleared up.  Other than that, I'm done, as I think 
everyone else is too. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:00:31 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Champions  5th Editi 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
> Don't duck and cover just yet. :^| To begin with, the only thing really 
> wrong with the original HA isn't really something wrong with HA: its price. 
> HA costs 3 pts. because 1d6 worth of STR cost 5 points.  One is left with 
> either the option of raising STR's cost, or living with HA. 
 
Raising STR's cost is really close to the top of the priority queue of 
things to be changed in 5th Edition, IMO. 
 
> The trouble is, HA is NOT the normal-damage equivalent of HKA. There's no 
> need for such a power (a normal damage power that lets you add STR), because 
> the paradigm shifts for normal damage -- STR is not added to HA, HA is added 
> to STR, and that's the way it should be: /STR/ is the equivalent of HKA (you 
> can use combat maneuvers with just STR, for example). 
 
I disagree - HA should be the normal-damage equivalent of HKA. Assuming 
the HA has an Advantage of some kind, it would compare to EB the same way 
HKA compares to RKA: inherently No Range, but as a bonus it lets you 
convert an amount of your STR into a different type of damage. 
 
Of course, if you just want straight normal HTH damage, the conversion 
part isn't useful to you - so you can just take a No Range Energy Blast or 
STR "only to deal damage". 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:00:31 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Champions  5th Editi 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
> Don't duck and cover just yet. :^| To begin with, the only thing really 
> wrong with the original HA isn't really something wrong with HA: its price. 
> HA costs 3 pts. because 1d6 worth of STR cost 5 points.  One is left with 
> either the option of raising STR's cost, or living with HA. 
 
Raising STR's cost is really close to the top of the priority queue of 
things to be changed in 5th Edition, IMO. 
 
> The trouble is, HA is NOT the normal-damage equivalent of HKA. There's no 
> need for such a power (a normal damage power that lets you add STR), because 
> the paradigm shifts for normal damage -- STR is not added to HA, HA is added 
> to STR, and that's the way it should be: /STR/ is the equivalent of HKA (you 
> can use combat maneuvers with just STR, for example). 
 
I disagree - HA should be the normal-damage equivalent of HKA. Assuming 
the HA has an Advantage of some kind, it would compare to EB the same way 
HKA compares to RKA: inherently No Range, but as a bonus it lets you 
convert an amount of your STR into a different type of damage. 
 
Of course, if you just want straight normal HTH damage, the conversion 
part isn't useful to you - so you can just take a No Range Energy Blast or 
STR "only to deal damage". 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:01:52 -0500 
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org> 
Subject: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>    - Similarly seduction should not *necessarily* be sexual.  A person can 
> be "seduced" by wealth, fame, and power.  (Arguably, of course, this could 
> be represented with Bribery, though it seems to my mind closer to 
> Seduction, semantically speaking.) 
 
Strongly agree; in fact, the existing skill could be read this way (if you 
turn off innuendo when reading it :-). 
 
>    - Enhanced Senses should include a Touch Sense Group. 
 
Only if there's a thorough discussion of the ramifications (I buy Touch 
Darkness and take no STUN!). One could also argue for pain, temperature, and 
balance senses/groups (though not me :-). 
 
>    - Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb.  My own 
> structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for lesser utility 
> (3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single tentacle 
> or prehensile tail). 
 
I dislike this because it precludes certain concepts from ever being 
built. How come you prefer it this way? 
 
>    - Linked should be fixed and specific.  My recommendation is to go with 
> the basic, existing -1/2 bonus to make both Powers used in proportion, 
> essentially being treated as a single Power for most purposes.  A character 
> could also have a "one-way" Link, letting one Power be used up to the level 
> that the other is, for -1/4.  Linked should still be applicable only to the 
> smaller Power (but please specify that this means Active Points). 
 
Yay. :-) I would actually vote for removing Linked entirely and treating it as 
"Limited Power" (AND adding a section on how powers link together!); the 
restrictions imposed by the link vary so widely that a single value is 
inappropriate, IMO.  
 
Geoff Speare 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:15:08 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    Hey fellow Listers, what do you think of this?  We've been languishing 
> for years with little or no official presence on the list, and now we have 
> a publisher (Mark), someone with a book in press (Patrick) and one with a 
> book in process (me).  Is this list getting better, or what?   :-] 
 
That's two with books in process, Bob! 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:27:37 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified) 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: That's What I Want... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>> Because Absorption doesn't _block_ or 'redirect' damage like armor or force 
>> fields. It _transforms_ it from damaging 'power' to useful 'power'. It 
>> should never have a _chance_ to do damage! 
>> 
>	You know, like the person above, when I first read the original comment 
>at the top here I thought "You idiot, buy the Absorption and the proper 
>defense." Then I read his defense of it below and must say I now 'almost' 
>agree with him (I'll show below where I don't, which is cost of power, and 
>why.). 
 
Hey, costs of a power are always debatable. :-) 
 
>> XD6 Aid, 0 END (+1/2), Persistant (+1/2), Only when hit by a power fitting 
>> 'Y' SFX (-1/2), Dice of Aid limited by DC of attack (-1/2). 
>>  
>> It's virtually the SAME construct, with the same conditions. Please, if you 
>> can, _justify_ to me the existance of Absorption at all, given that it 
>> operates identically to this Aid construct. 
>> 
>	Now that's a very good point. One I hadn't considered before. 
 
The same 'logic' can apply to Transfer (A Drain with a Linked Aid) for a 
good deal cheaper (2-3 CP per die). Personally, I think that Transfer should 
drop to 10 points per die. As it stands, I've seen very few people buy 
Transfer, and it's not just the cost, either - RKAs and Major Transforms are 
15 points/die, and people still buy them... 
  
>> Now, back to Absorption acting in a 'damage transformation' manner. Watch 
>> how easy this is: for every die of Absorption, you REMOVE one DC of damage 
>> from the attack. So if someone with 8D6 Absorption gets hit with a 10D6 
>> attack, only 2 damage dice are rolled - everything else gets 'absorbed'. 
>> Then, you roll the dice of absorption (up to the maximum) to find out how 
>> many 'CPs' are absorbed. Clean, simple, and actually has a reason for 
>> existance - but don't mistake it for a cheap defense!! It's JUST as 
>> expensive as Energy Blast, on a dice for dice basis. Buying 12D6 Absorption 
>> is as expensive as buying 40 points of Resistant PD or ED, or 60 points of 
>> non-resistant. 40 rPD will stop a 4D6 RKA or 12D6 Energy Blast just as cold, 
>> though it has admittedly little effect on Knockback. 
>> 
>	However. 12d6 Absorption as you state it blocks up to 12d6 EB ALL 
>the time. So it's really stopping from 12 to 72 points of damage. However 
>a 13d6 EB that rolls all ones will still do 1 point in your construct. 
 
Hmm, good point, but easily solved by rolling dice and countering BODY for 
BODY and STUN for STUN. I was kinda trying to reduce the dice rolling 
involved (silly me!). 
 
>	Now I don't propose to roll the dice of arbsorption AND the 
>dice of EB and then compare them for totals (which is what we do now), then 
>absorb whatever you rolled and only take the rest (which is diferent from now). 
>This has too many dice rolls. 
 
Just as many as we have now. 
 
>But perhaps we could buy absorption like 
>PD or ED, only at say 2 or 3 points per point of absorption? Or 5 points per 
>3 points of absorption? 
 
There's an idea! Though the upshot of this would be absorbing the BODY of an 
attack but still getting nailed by lots of STUN, which doesn't feel right. I 
think I'm leaning towards the opposed dice idea now. 
 
>	However I think having it cancel out dice for dice is too potent 
>under most situations, and oddly weak under some (25 character points of 
>absorb should be enough to stop 10 points of damage, weather it was done by 
>a 2d6 hit, or a 10d6 hit. However it should not be enough to stop 30 
>points of damage, weather or not it's done by 5d6 or 10d6). All other 
>defenses in champions are static, so it only makes sense for absorption's 
>defensive side to be so as well. 
 
Hey! A new power! Damage Dissipation, 3 points per 1D6, roll for effect and 
counter STUN for STUN and BODY for BODY. Must be bought separately for each 
of Physical and Energy Damage. Knockback is generated only from the BODY 
that gets through. Functions vs Normal and Killing Attacks, but not NNDs or 
AVLDs. Remaining damage applies versus conventional defenses. 
 
 
 
To 'simulate' Absorption*, you just throw in a Aid, Linked (-1/2), Self Only 
(-1/2), Proportional to Attack (-1/2). 
 
Let's introduce the idea of variable defenses into HERO! 
 
<John ducks the thousands of tiny D6's that people start peppering him with 
in anger over the thought of more dice rolling in Champs...:-)> 
 
*I don't _need_ a specific power called absorption, but if we're going to 
have one, I want it to function 'properly', at least as far as the most 
common, comic-book method of Absorption. 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:28:07 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified) 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: That's What I Want... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>Hiya John. Long time, no argue... :) 
 
Heh. How long ago was that really big row between us? ^_^ Year and a half? 
> 
> JaRP> Now, back to Absorption acting in a 'damage transformation' manner. 
> JaRP> Watch how easy this is: for every die of Absorption, you REMOVE one DC 
> JaRP> of damage from the attack. 
  
>Personally, I think this is what Damage Reduction was intended for, but  
>different strokes... 
 
Yeah, it does bear some similarities, doesn't it? Though Damage Reduction 
takes place after all defenses apply, where as that Abs. construct takes 
place before.  
 
>I have also been wondering about the utility of Absorption lately, and I  
>had a few ideas for house rulings: 
> 1) The 5 points/d6 stands, but it now converts from STUN damage to CPs; 
 
Oik. Too much. Then it really is Aid, just under another name. 
 
> 2) The power works the same as in the book, but is now 3 points/d6  
>       (like Dispel); 
 
Fairer. 
 
> 3) The power is bought like John suggested, but the dice are rolled to  
>       conter the attack, STUN to STUN, BODY to BODY. The ability to  
>       counter out dice, IMO, is pretty potent; 
 
Possibly, and this isn't such a bad idea; as it stands you have to roll 
Absorption dice anyways, so it's not adding any extra rolls, is it? 
 
>I'm seriously looking at #1, primarily because, as John stated, you  
>don't get enough out of regular Absorption to make it worthwhile... And  
 
I was referring to not getting enough 'defense' out of Armor 'only up to 
Absorption roll', though Absorption does, on average, provide only 1/3 to 
1/4 the CP gain as an equivalent cost Aid. 
 
>As an aside, does anyone else here restrict the SFX of attacks that  
>someone's Damage Reduction/Absorption/etc. can function against (ie  
>fire, cold, punches, etc.) rather than just Energy/Physical damage? 
 
Sure. IIRC, the Damage Reduction writeup gives specific examples - "Only vs. 
Fire/Heat, (-1)". No reason Absorption shouldn't do the same. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
X-Sender: mlknight@pop.mindspring.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:32:03 -0700 
From: Michelle Knight <mlknight@mindspring.com> 
Subject: Re: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:15 AM 12/15/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>>    Hey fellow Listers, what do you think of this?  We've been languishing 
>> for years with little or no official presence on the list, and now we have 
>> a publisher (Mark), someone with a book in press (Patrick) and one with a 
>> book in process (me).  Is this list getting better, or what?   :-] 
> 
>That's two with books in process, Bob! 
 
 
  And don't forget the one who's doing the layouts on GRG products (and 
soon Hero Games products as well.). :) 
 
 
Michelle 
 
 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 10:47:08 -0500 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 12/14/97 8:40 AM, Trevor Barrie (tbarrie@ibm.net) Said: 
 
>Wait... what "super power rules"? The Powers section is pretty fundamental 
>to the Hero System; you need it for pretty much any genre except for 100% 
>Realistic. 
 
Actually, you need it for that as well. How are you going to have a 9mm  
without the RKA Power? 
 
                                         |  David A. Fair 
        Think Different                  |  SDS International 
                                         |  dfair@sdslink.com 
 
From: rcole@ezy.net (Ron Cole) 
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:06:46 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  Since it seems that the majority of folks (onthis list, anyway) would like 
>to see more cardboard minis, let me ask you this: Would you be willing to pay 
>an extra $2 for a book that had them included? 
 
Not for Supers, however I'd really like to see a nice selection of fantasy based 
collections, like SJG had a while back.  When they were available, I couldn't 
afford to buy a lot of them, and now that I can, they aren't available anymore. 
The metal miniatures are really nice, but I don't have the time or the talent to 
paint them, and the cardboard ones are better for wear and tear anyway.  I don't 
worry about damaging them, and if the do get damaged, the can be replaced 
easily.  (in theory :-) 
 
Ron 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: RE: It's Not Easy Being Green 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:15:15 -0500 (EST) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> >   With all of these evil green people, only Brainiac 5 and She-Hulk stand 
> >out among notable green people in fiction as true heroes in any medium. 
> >(Kermit doesn't count; he's a frog.) 
> >   I say, greens should get together to fight this obvious media 
> >stereotyping and discrimination. 
 
<singing to the tune of "Short People"> 
 
Green people got, no reason, 
    Green people got, no reason to live... 
 
-Eric 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:23:19 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: TUSV 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
>    I think Chris Avellone's working on something like that.  The last I 
> heard, it was being called "Essential Villainy." 
 
	I'd buy that. 
 
>    I don't know the status on it, though; it may have been abandoned, or 
> put on a long-term status (like Patrick Bradley's Pirate Hero). 
 
 
	I'd really buy that.  GRG, are you listening?  There may be some 
interest in reviving Pirate Hero. 
 
	Argh. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:25:44 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:01 AM 12/15/97 -0500, Geoffrey Speare wrote: 
>>    - Similarly seduction should not *necessarily* be sexual.  A person can 
>> be "seduced" by wealth, fame, and power.  (Arguably, of course, this could 
>> be represented with Bribery, though it seems to my mind closer to 
>> Seduction, semantically speaking.) 
> 
>Strongly agree; in fact, the existing skill could be read this way (if you 
>turn off innuendo when reading it :-). 
 
   I just felt that this should be made fully clear. 
 
>>    - Enhanced Senses should include a Touch Sense Group. 
> 
>Only if there's a thorough discussion of the ramifications (I buy Touch 
>Darkness and take no STUN!). One could also argue for pain, temperature, and 
>balance senses/groups (though not me :-). 
 
   With the discussion of ramifications, I agree.  It's at least as 
important as a discussion of Blindness.  (Random thought:  Someone Flashed 
vs Touch might take no STUN until the Flash wears off; then all the STUN is 
applied at once.  Probably not very balanced, but it is an interesting idea.) 
   As for pain, temperature, and balance, I'd call all of those part of the 
Touch Sense Group, as well as texture. 
 
>>    - Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb.  My own 
>> structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for lesser utility 
>> (3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single tentacle 
>> or prehensile tail). 
> 
>I dislike this because it precludes certain concepts from ever being 
>built. How come you prefer it this way? 
 
   Somehow, it just doesn't seem right that a character can have 100 arms 
for the same cost as another character whose Extra Limb is merely a 
prehensile tail. 
   Of course, the actual structure could be something different, like 5 
points for every 2X arms or whatever. 
 
>>    - Linked should be fixed and specific.  My recommendation is to go with 
>> the basic, existing -1/2 bonus to make both Powers used in proportion, 
>> essentially being treated as a single Power for most purposes.  A character 
>> could also have a "one-way" Link, letting one Power be used up to the level 
>> that the other is, for -1/4.  Linked should still be applicable only to the 
>> smaller Power (but please specify that this means Active Points). 
> 
>Yay. :-) I would actually vote for removing Linked entirely and treating 
it as 
>"Limited Power" (AND adding a section on how powers link together!); the 
>restrictions imposed by the link vary so widely that a single value is 
>inappropriate, IMO.  
 
   The three I listed are, I think, the main ones that are liable to be 
used; Limited Power can "fill in" for whatever's missing. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:26:51 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:15 AM 12/15/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>>    Hey fellow Listers, what do you think of this?  We've been languishing 
>> for years with little or no official presence on the list, and now we have 
>> a publisher (Mark), someone with a book in press (Patrick) and one with a 
>> book in process (me).  Is this list getting better, or what?   :-] 
> 
>That's two with books in process, Bob! 
 
   Oh right, I forgot all about Kazei 5!  Sorry, Michael! 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:28:22 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:32 AM 12/15/97 -0700, Michelle Knight wrote: 
>At 10:15 AM 12/15/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>> 
>>>    Hey fellow Listers, what do you think of this?  We've been languishing 
>>> for years with little or no official presence on the list, and now we have 
>>> a publisher (Mark), someone with a book in press (Patrick) and one with a 
>>> book in process (me).  Is this list getting better, or what?   :-] 
>> 
>>That's two with books in process, Bob! 
> 
>  And don't forget the one who's doing the layouts on GRG products (and 
>soon Hero Games products as well.). :) 
 
   Awesome!   :-] 
   This place is really getting thick with official presence.  Now if we 
could only get one of The Big Guys to subscribe, but I think Mark will have 
to suffice for that (sort of like wanting the President of the United 
States and getting the President pro tem of the Senate -- not quite the 
same thing, but still impressive). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bsvitavs@acs-mail.bu.edu 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:21:27 -0500 
From: bsvitavs@bu.edu (Bill Svitavsky) 
Subject: Re: Slipperiness 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>At 06:31 PM 12/15/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote: 
>>I think one thing you may have missed would be some sort of 
>>reduction in movement and accelleration.  Little or nor traction would 
>>mean the tires/feet/etc woudl be moving like hell but not getting very 
>>far. 
> 
>   This is what I currently have down for the effect of a Slick.  Tell me 
>what you think. 
> 
>   If the Transform is successful, then the ground becomes slippery. 
>Characters and vehicles using Ground Movement must make a DEX Roll at -3 
>(or a Combat Vehicle Operations or similar Roll at no penalty) when 
>entering the hex or lose control (see Chapter Three for more details on 
>this).  Even if this Roll is successful, a second Roll at -2 (in addition 
>to any other Modifiers) must be made if the character or vehicle attempts 
>to accelerate, decelerate, or turn while in the affected area. 
>   At the GM's option, every BODY pip above the 16 needed to successfully 
>enact the Transform, up to the maximum that can be rolled on the dice, adds 
>another -1 to the DEX or Combat Vehicle Operations Rolls. 
> 
 
I think this beats any previously published solution to this slippery 
problem, but I still have a few qualms with it. While Transform seems like 
the most "legal" way to go about creating the effect, you're stuck with the 
power working vs. BODY. With this approach, it's easier to make dirt or 
sand slippery than to affect a paved or metal surface - five minutes of 
rain will prove that wrong. 
 
Your effects for the power make sense; I'll assume you deal with what it 
means for a running character to "lose control" in Chapter Three. I would 
like to see some mention of defenses against a slippery surface - does 
Clinging stop it? Is it entirely dependent on SFX? If you're feeling really 
ambitious, you might try to build studded snow tires. 
 
Just for further comparison, I'll include my "more or less within the 
rules" fix, built here for a one hex effect: 
 
 
Slipperiness Effect (existing rules): 
     4 pts.     Martial Throw 
                Area Effect (+1), Continuous (+1), Ranged (+1/2), 
                Uncontrolled (+1/2), DEX or Breakfall Roll to Remain 
                Standing & Avoid Damage (-1/2), Doesn't Affect Flying or 
                Clinging Targets (-1/2), Nonmoving Target Won't 
                Fall (-1/2) 
 
     5 pts.     Darkness 
                Only to Reduce DCV (-1), Linked to Martial Throw (-1/2), 
                DEX or Breakfall Roll instead of PER roll to get only -1 
 
                DCV (-0) 
 
And optionally: 
     14 pts.    2d6 Suppress vs. Clinging, Area Effect (+1), 
                Continuous (+1), Ranged (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), 
 
                Linked to Martial Throw (-1/2) 
 
Thus, you get a continuous area effect attack that does v/5 damage (a zero 
strength martial throw) to anyone moving who fails a DEX roll. Dive for 
Cover works particularly nicely with this effect, as taking -1 per inch 
moved is a pretty good simulation of moving across a slippery surface. The 
Uncontrolled advantages assumes you're creating ice or something that hangs 
around for a while; if the effect only lasts while you put effort into it, 
the slipperiness could be built without that advantage. The Darkness effect 
may seem weird, since it doesn't at all effect the target's perceptions, 
but it's the only good power to give someone 1/2 DCV. I know lots of people 
object to ranged Martial Arts, though I find it a better alternative than 
the Transform BODY problem. 
 
Really, though, I think slipperiness needs to be a power. Creating a new 
power probably isn't within the scope of TUSV, so whatever you use will 
necessarily be a bit of a kludge. 
 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:23:28 -0600 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net 
Organization: Redbow Antiques 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << Major Mistake. The powers rules have many applications outside of 
> Super Powers. I think the Hero system rulebook should be the same size > as it was in 4th edition.>> 
  
>   My bad. I think the plan *was* (or, rather, *is*) to have all the > character creation rules (including the "powers") in the Hero System > Rules book, and treat the Champions book as the campaign book (perhaps > with a few extra goodies, and certainly plenty of clear examples!). 
>  
>   Mark @ GRG 
 
	I agree totally and can't wait for this to happen. This is the way it 
should always have been. Hero system is a great "Generic" game system, 
but because it has always been combined with Champions and because of a 
lack (relatively) of World books it has been overlooked and other game 
systems (like say Gurps, which I like) have taken it's place. 
 
X-Sender: mlknight@pop.mindspring.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:24:32 -0700 
From: Michelle Knight <mlknight@mindspring.com> 
Subject: Layouts 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Hello all, 
 
 
   I've been reading the recent posts about what y'all want to see in GRG 
products as  
far as the layout goes, and I just want you to know that I have been paying 
attention  
and taking notes.   
   I've noticed that most listers like sidebars, and I've only seen a one 
or two posts against them.  Personally, I enjoy sidebars and most likely 
will include them in SANDS OF TIME (the project I'm currently working on -- 
my first), but don't quote me on that. :)   
   If you have any other suggestions on layouts please do not hesitate to 
email me or post them to this list.   Thanks. :) 
 
 
Michelle   
 
X-Sender: bsvitavs@acs-mail.bu.edu 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:28:22 -0500 
From: bsvitavs@bu.edu (Bill Svitavsky) 
Subject: Re: Slipperiness 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Rick Holding wrote: 
 
>I think one thing you may have missed would be some sort of 
>reduction in movement and accelleration.  Little or nor traction would 
>mean the tires/feet/etc woudl be moving like hell but not getting very 
>far. 
 
 
I agree this is missing, although the power already discourages moving 
rapidly by penalizing the DEX roll for each inch of movement. Rather than 
further complicating the power, I'd rather leave it to players to construct 
any additional penalties they feel appropriate, probably through a Suppress 
vs. movement. 
 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:34:39 -0600 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net 
Organization: Redbow Antiques 
Subject: Re: Special Offers to the list 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
GoldRushG wrote: 
>  
>   Would the list lurkers here be in favor of occasional special offers on Hero products if we were to do that? Something akin to "No shipping on orders" or a slight discount? We're considering starting seasonal or holiday-themed sales and I wanted to get feedback from folks here on the idea. 
>  
>   Mark @ GRG 
 
	At the risk of spending more money later, I would have to say that I 
would end up buying a Hero system book as soon as I could. I would not 
wait for a sale and if there was a sale I probably wouldn't end up 
buying more just because of it. 
	So for me a sale is wasted.....but of course if you just want to give 
me a discount.... 
	Just being honest. 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:37:35 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Saturday, December 13, 1997 11:37 AM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
>> What's so horrifying about having two powers that can be used 
>> independently or gang-fired? 
> 
> Basically, it takes the focus away from SFX and into power 
>effects.   You define a SFX and take a power for it.  You don't take 
a 
>couple of powers, give them each SFX, then say that together they 
make up 
>a new SFX. 
 
 
Uh, I can think of a number of SFX that would allow both separate and 
together uses of a power. Double-barreled shotguns (possibly with two 
different types of shot- say, slugs and birdshot), a super with a 
different power in each hand, etc. 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:39:51 -0600 (CST) 
Subject: TUSV 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
Rook < Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> > writes:  
 
>  
> > take what I post as gospel even if you'd take TUSV itself as such. 
>  
> 	Am I the only one who keeps wanting to read that as 
> "The Ultimate Super Villian"? 
> 	Which in itself may make for a justifiable book. 
>  
 
I have to make an effort not to read it that way too.    
I'd also like to see  "The Ultimate Super Villain". 
 
Curt Hicks  
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:49:28 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Saturday, December 13, 1997 12:06 PM, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>Actually, this sounds something like what the 3rd edition was. It got 
rid 
>of the 2nd edition's bending eyebeam on the cover, fixed up a few 
rough 
>spots, and looked a bit slicker. 
 
 
I would probably prefer a 5th Ed. that improved on the 4th Ed. the way 
the 4th Ed. was intended to improve on the 3rd. 
 
>I'm all for the 5th ed. In addition to the various suggestions people 
have 
>already made, I hope it includes either a "slipperiness" power or a 
>revised Change Environment that can make an icy surface with combat 
>effects. (My pet peeve.) 
 
My personal request: FIX THE FALLING RULES. They are ridiculous now. 
"The monster is right behind you. What do you do?" "I leap off this 
building." Yuck. 
 
>If there are any extensive changes at all, I wouldn't mind seeing 
>something like (but not exactly like) the "Incomplete Character" 
rules. 
 
Yes. I would definitely like to see something like that. 
 
Some people hate the Spirit rules, I rather like them. I would like to 
see them expanded upon, possibly as part of the "Incomplete Character" 
rules, and cleaned up a bit. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:50:27 -0600 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net 
Organization: Redbow Antiques 
Subject: Re: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Pat10355 wrote: 
>  
> Hello, 
>  
> I've just joined the mailing list and I wanted to quickly introduce >myself. 
>I'm Patrick Sweeney, a Champions player since the very first edition >and the author of the forthcoming San Angelo: City of Heroes campaign >book from Gold Rush Games. 
 
	I am pretty new to this list as well and have been enjoying it ever 
since. I downloaded your first two chapters of the Gold Rush Games 
Website and me and my group took a session to read it. 
	Wow!! Great job. We all loved the quotes you used and can't wait to 
play it. I wish it was January now. 
 
					Bobby Farris 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: KARZA DRONES 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:00:08 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Saturday, December 13, 1997 2:01 PM, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
 
 
>At 05:38 PM 12/13/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>>On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>>> Are ya'll objecting because it's difficult to keep track of, or 
because it 
>>> can be abusive (*very* abusive, in some cases)?  In the case of 
the sample 
>>> character, it had a base 2 SPD, and +2 SPD for whatever, so it 
would be 
>>> easier to keep track of... 
>> 
>>1 - it can be difficult to keep track of.  Things like 2 SPD + 2 SPD 
to do 
>>x (or 4 + 4) are easy.  But what aboput a SPD 3 with a + 2 SPD only 
to do 
>>'x'? 
>> 
>Yep.  That's tricky.  That's why I said 2 + 2 was okay... but I 
*would* shy 
>away from that other. 
 
 
I don't find that tricky at all. For the SPD 3 with a +2 SPD only to 
do x, I would write up a SPD 5 character, with certain phases limited. 
 
>>2 - it is very abusive. 
>> 
>Exactly how?  I would probably give a very light Lim.  Maybe a -1/2 
at 
>most.  Could you illuminate me on this? 
 
It _can_ be. So can HA. Personally, I use optional rules for HA (from 
the Hero Games website), and would allow only minimal limitations on 
"limited SPD". 
 
>>3 - it really plays hell with things like getting Stunned and 
Recoveries. 
>> 
>But, if the extra SPD is only for Y (which doesn't include getting 
Stunned 
>or Recovering), I don't see the problem.  I'd have them miss *that* 
Phase, 
>too. 
 
I agree on this one. 
 
>>> I might let it in my game if it were like this (simple), and it 
wouldn't be 
>>> much of a Lim. 
>> 
>>On the flip side, there is the problem of designing something like a 
>>multi-headed creature (like a hydra).  If I give it a 9 Speed (to 
>>represent all those heads) then things live its over all moement 
rate, 
>>Recoveries end END usage get out of hand.  And if I kill a head, it 
still 
>>keeps its old SPD. 
>> 
>Yes, that's ugly.  I never saw the Bestiary... did they do it like 
this?  I 
>thought I had heard someone say it was multiple creatures, with being 
one 
>creature a SFX. 
 
Duplication, only one body?:) 
 
>>But I still think '+x SPD only to do y' is abusive and shouldn't be 
>>allowed. 
>> 
>Fair enough.  : )  Thanks for the response. 
 
Fair enough. However, there should _always_ be a way to model a 
particular character. What about a person whose mental powers are 
effortless, and operate as fast as they can think, but whose body is 
slow and has poor reflexes? I don't see Disadvantages being much of a 
solution, and you've forbidden Limitations to solve the problem. 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Fwd: Ninjato 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 15 Dec 1997 13:02:41 -0500 
Lines: 26 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "G" == GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> writes: 
 
G>   Here is a reply to the ninjato thread that I sent to the Sengoku list. 
 
[...] 
 
Interesting... I'll have to dig up my (Japanese historical) references for 
comparison. 
 
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=LN8Q 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 15 Dec 1997 13:05:38 -0500 
Lines: 32 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
>> I would suggest that that particlur rule was placed to stop people 
>> saying "I have a 3d6 flash.  I will link my 12d6 energy blast to it. 
>> -1/2 on the energy blast, thanks" 
 
BG>    Precisely.  So how would you work such a construct where the Flash 
BG> always went off with the EB? 
 
If Champions III may be used as a reference, when one puts multiple powers 
into a single framework slot, they are treated as a single power.  No 
modifiers are required for this to occour.  Use of powers in such a slot is 
proportional -- if you use your EB at half power, you must use your Flash 
at half power. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:15:52 -0600 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net 
Organization: Redbow Antiques 
Subject: Re:Champions 5th edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At the risk of getting lynched I would like to say that one thing 
Fuzion did that I would like to see in a 5th edition of Champions is the 
change in the Damage class table. 
	Make Damage class three killing attack be 3d6K not 1d6K. It would make 
it a lot less confusing. 
	I think it wouldn't destroy any 4th edition characters just make it 
where you had to do a little math before you used them(math is something 
no Champions player should have a problem with). 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:16:04 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Rook wrote: 
 
Re: Transform 
 
> > I can think of things which reduce costs that should be Minor (blinding, 
> > for example). Also, the rule about "no point increases" desperately needs 
> > to be reinstated. 
>  
>     If it was reinstated, how would you do the special effect of the ray gun 
> ordiety that grants powers/turns normals into mutants, etc... 
 
Transform linked to Aid. If all you're doing is adding Powers, then 
arguably Aid alone would work. Alternately, if you assume the people 
being transformed are "game irrelevant", you can just use Summon. 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:21:21 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
> >>    - Force Field and Force Wall should have Flash Defense, Mental Defense, 
> >> and Power Defense methods built right in. 
> > 
> >Force Wall, maybe. Force Field would be pointless. (Just buy them Costs 
> >END.) 
>  
> By that argument you could just buy Armor that 'Costs END' to simulate a 
> Force Field. 
 
Yes, absolutely. 
 
> >I can think of things which reduce costs that should be Minor (blinding, 
> >for example). Also, the rule about "no point increases" desperately needs 
> >to be reinstated. 
>  
> Well, that's hard to say. After all, if Mysterium the Mage and friends are 
> falling off a cliff, and Mysterium wants to do a Transform to give everyone 
> wings, well, he can't, because of the rule you mention. 
 
He can do an Aid Flight, though. 
 
> He can't turn those 25 point peasants into tigers (233 points according to 
> the HERO Bestiary). 
 
This, too, can be done with Transform linked to Aid, or just "Summon 
Tigers, requires peasants nearby(-1/2)" if you consider the peasants to be 
effectively just scenery. 
 
> >>    - Reduced END should be half END for +1/4, 1 END for +1/2, 0 END for 
> >> +3/4, and Persistent for +1. 
> > 
> >I don't see the point of the "1 END" level. 
>  
> Me neither. Though I _would_ like to see an official modifier, 'Costs END to 
> Activate, but not Maintain', though I'm not sure what it's worth. Probably a 
> +1/4). 
 
Assuming the current costs for Costs END/0 END stay the same, it would 
pretty much have to be +1/4 for Powers that normally cost END, -1/4 for 
Powers which normally don't. I've been using this for a while. 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Ninja Hero v. TUMA/ Desol Super Dodge 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:23:41 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Saturday, December 13, 1997 6:48 PM, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
 
<snip> 
>Rather than a generic +1/2 Advantage that for some reason affects 
>any desolid character, regardless of special effect, I'd have a bunch 
of 
>+1/4 Advantages like Affects Ghosts/Spirits, Affects Dimensional 
Shifted, 
>Affects Temporally Displaced, etc. Actually, I think I'd still call 
it one 
>advantage, but require SFX to be specified in order to determine 
>applicability. 
 
This works good. However, you had better define, at the beginning of a 
campaign, what sorts of Desolid are allowed. Otherwise, the players 
might legitimately object when their "Affects X" power is useless, but 
their enemies all have a "Desolid, SFX X" that they never considered 
buying an attack for. 
 
>I might also do something similar for Hardened. Why should titanium 
steel 
>walls stop a dimension walking teleporter? 
 
Yes. _Please_ fix this. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: PART 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:27:05 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Saturday, December 13, 1997 8:21 PM, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>  The supplement will also include some new villains (from the "PART 
case 
>files"), a few new skills, some tips on playing and GMing PART 
adventures, 
>creating PART PCs (in case some folks go for that sort of thing), 
PART tactics 
>(just how *do* they capture and transport those supervillains?), some 
PART- 
>based adventures, NPC write-ups of PART personnel, and so on. 
> 
 
Don't forget those neat standard issue chronometers. You know, the 
"PART timers". 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Atmospheric FTL 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:45:17 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Saturday, December 13, 1997 9:19 PM, Brian Wong wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> Tell me about it... 
>I wanted 'Detective Mao', a Chinese teleporter who works as a liason 
with 
>(insert world's US gov team) to do a daily commute from Beijing. It 
>came to about 80 points in *2 add ons... To make it cost justifiable 
I 
>had to tack on a lim of extra time up to an hour, as well as a few 
other 
>lims. It was still very expensive and so I have yet to add it on to 
the 
>character. 
 
 
Yes, it is a horribly expensive power, but not nearly valuable enough 
for the price. I had considered a set of linked powers, firing one 
after another, consisting of Teleportation upwards 100 kilometers, FTL 
travel to directly above some point on Earth, followed by 
Teleportation downwards 100 kilometers. Kludgey, and way too 
expensive. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:50:00 -0500 
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org> 
Subject: Layouts 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>    I've noticed that most listers like sidebars, and I've only seen a one 
> or two posts against them. 
 
I love sidebars with one exception: when they have rules (or anything else I'm 
likely to be scanning the book for during game play). Biggest GURPS layout 
mistake was putting real rules in the sidebars. 
 
Geoff Speare 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:50:52 -0500 (EST) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> BG>    Precisely.  So how would you work such a construct where the Flash 
> BG> always went off with the EB? 
>  
> If Champions III may be used as a reference, when one puts multiple powers 
> into a single framework slot, they are treated as a single power.  No 
> modifiers are required for this to occour.  Use of powers in such a slot is 
> proportional -- if you use your EB at half power, you must use your Flash 
> at half power. 
>  
 
Yes, this seems reasonable, but how would you handle powers and attributes  
linked to powers without varying degrees?  For instance, 10pts of COM linked  
to Shape Shift.  Would you require the shape shifter to use his/her full 
COM everytime he/she shapeshifts, just part of it, or allow him/her to 
use all, none, or any value inbetween?  I'm trying to think of other examples, 
but I guess Shape Shift is the big question.  I mean, you could link all 
sorts of things to Shape Shift, and justify it by special effects: PD, ED, 
STR, DEX, CON, Armor, HKA, etc.  How much flexibility would you give a 
Shape Shifter in using these linked powers? 
 
-Eric 
 
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:01:33 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com> 
Subject: Re:Champions 5th edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<x-rich>At 12:15 PM 12/15/97 -0600, bobby farris wrote: 
 
>At the risk of getting lynched I would like to say that one thing 
 
>Fuzion did that I would like to see in a 5th edition of Champions is the 
 
>change in the Damage class table. 
 
>	Make Damage class three killing attack be 3d6K not 1d6K. It would make 
 
>it a lot less confusing. 
 
>	I think it wouldn't destroy any 4th edition characters just make it 
 
>where you had to do a little math before you used them(math is something 
 
>no Champions player should have a problem with). 
 
 
I disagree, vehemently.  The 'ton's 'o dice' paradigm is bad enough without sucking in killing damage, too. 
 
 
First, if the math of conversion doesn't confuse you, then the 3DC= 1 die killing shouldn't be too very taxing, either. 
 
 
Second, the more dice you roll, the less random the result.  You are far more likely to get an average result on, say 6d6 than you are on 2d6.  Randomness is critical, especially at the lower end of power, where most killing attacks get used.   
 
 
Those of you with characters that do 24d6 damage should just consider applying  84 stun and 24 body every time and save your wrists from all that dice rolling. 
 
 
Scott 
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
 
The German dragon shall find it hard to escape  
 
to its cavernous lairs, for vengeance for it's  
 
treason will overtake it.  In the end it will become  
 
strong again, just for a short time, but the  
 
decimation of Normandy will be a sorry blow. 
 
	<bold>Geoffrey of Monmouth</bold>, c. 1136 
 
	<italic>The Prophecies of Merlin 
 
</italic>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~	 
 
Scott Nolan 
 
nolan@erols.com 
 
</x-rich> 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:02:29 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re:Champions 5th edition 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
bobby farris writes: 
> At the risk of getting lynched I would like to say that one thing 
> Fuzion did that I would like to see in a 5th edition of Champions is the 
> change in the Damage class table. 
>      Make Damage class three killing attack be 3d6K not 1d6K. It would make 
> it a lot less confusing. 
>      I think it wouldn't destroy any 4th edition characters just make it 
> where you had to do a little math before you used them(math is something 
> no Champions player should have a problem with). 
 
While obliterating the stun lottery has a certain appeal, I don't think that 
making a 12 DC killing attack average 42 body would be a particularly good 
idea.... 
The ratio between 'ability to do stun' and 'ability to kill things' in HERO is 
a bit low (fear my pistol; I cannot possibly kill you with it, but I can sure 
knock you unconscious!), but I think Fuzion took it a bit too far in the other 
direction. 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:32:20 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> >    - Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb.  My own 
> > structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for lesser utility 
> > (3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single tentacle 
> > or prehensile tail). 
> 
> That was one of the silliest parts of the previous edition of Champions; I 
> certainly have no desire to see it return. Building the 100-armed giants 
> of Greek mythology should _not_ mandate a Power on the order of 1000 
> points. 
 
    Agreed. Since each limb in champs does not give an extra attack, having one 
extraor one million extra makes no noticable effect on the game. If it was 1 
point per limb Prehensile 
Hair would either 
A: get VERY expensive. 
B: be forced to all move together as 'one item', killing the 'medusa effect' for 
all but multi-million point 
    characters. 
 
 
> >    - Flash, as mentioned elsewhere, should be 5 points per die, with each 
> > BODY pip of Flash working for 1 segment.  (It makes Flash Defense more 
> > balanced.) 
> 
> Sounds okay. 
> 
 
    And / or raise the cost of Flash Defense to 5 points per point of defense. 
 
> >    - Force Field and Force Wall should have Flash Defense, Mental Defense, 
> > and Power Defense methods built right in. 
> 
> Force Wall, maybe. Force Field would be pointless. (Just buy them Costs 
> END.) 
> 
 
    I always liked GURPS Super's method. 'Wall' is an advantage that can be added 
onto a power.I think Armor, Force Field, and Force Wall should be combined into 
one power. Then use advantages 
of limitations to get the particular version desired. 
 
> >    - Stretching should be cheaper.  I like 2 points per 1", though this may 
> > be an overreaction. 
> 
> Sounds reasonable. 
> 
 
    Yeah, it really is an 'odd' movement power. 
 
> >    - Transform should be more specifically described as well, especially in 
> > terms of what constitutes Cosmetic, Minor, and Major Transforms.  (I tend 
> > to go with this:  if it doesn't affect the character sheet, it's Cosmetic; 
> > if it shifts points around on the sheet or alters specific Powers but 
> > doesn't change the totals, it's Minor; if it changes point totals, it's 
> > Major.) 
> 
> I can think of things which reduce costs that should be Minor (blinding, 
> for example). Also, the rule about "no point increases" desperately needs 
> to be reinstated. 
> 
 
    If it was reinstated, how would you do the special effect of the ray gun 
ordiety that grants powers/turns normals into mutants, etc... 
 
    Admittadly not a power you let loose into the hands of players in most games, 
 
but a mechanic for it should exist. 
 
> >    - Always On should have a variation where certain Limitations (END Cost, 
> > Focus, etc.) represent how the Power is turned off with an effort. 
> 
> Good idea. 
> 
 
    Yeah. I have several characters who have to concentrate to keep a power 
fromgoing off. It's always been a hack to do them in Hero. 
 
> >    - Linked should be fixed and specific.  My recommendation is to go with 
> I agree, more or less. The current version of Linked, with a 
> 
 
    Kind of a moot issue since I can use 'limited' to do it however I 
wantalready. 
 
> >    - DNPC should allow +5 points for every 2X individuals on one Roll. 
> > Also allow DNCP Rolls of 5 or less (Rarely) for +0 points, and 17 or less 
> > (Constantly) for +20 points. 
> >    - Hunted, similarly, should allow Hunted Rolls of 5 or less (Rarely) for 
> > -5 points, and 17 or less (Constantly) for +15 points. 
> 
> Maybe, but I'd put a caveat stating that the 17- level shouldn't be used 
> unless the character in question is focal to the campaign. 14- is already 
> really, really high. 
> 
 
    I don't personally see the point of 17-.14- will occur 90.7% of the time. 
17- will occur more than 98.1% of the time. 
 
I would not allow a 17- in a game I ran. The last significant break is at 15-, 
which is 95.4% of the time. 
And even there the diference between a 14- and 15- is not enough to justify even 
a full point IMHO. 
 
 
-- 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:35:05 -0500 
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net 
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Slipperiness 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
 
> >At 06:31 PM 12/15/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote: 
> >>I think one thing you may have missed would be some sort of 
> >>reduction in movement and accelleration.  Little or nor traction would 
> >>mean the tires/feet/etc woudl be moving like hell but not getting very 
> >>far. 
> > 
> 
> Really, though, I think slipperiness needs to be a power. Creating a new 
> power probably isn't within the scope of TUSV, so whatever you use will 
> necessarily be a bit of a kludge. 
 
  I may have missed the answer to this question, but what is wrong with Change 
Environment? As it was described in Hero System Almanac 2( pages 28-30), CE 
imposes sight modifiers and combat modifiers. You could add movement reduction 
by saying every 20 points of CE reduces ground movement 2" and halves 
acceleration. 
 
Besides, coming up with a separate new power would necessatate coming up with a 
separate new defense. 
 
Love in Christ 
Kev 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:38:14 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>    - Force Field and Force Wall should have Flash Defense, Mental Defense, 
>> and Power Defense methods built right in. 
> 
>Force Wall, maybe. Force Field would be pointless. (Just buy them Costs 
>END.) 
 
By that argument you could just buy Armor that 'Costs END' to simulate a 
Force Field. 
 
>>    - Life Support should have some of its elements able to be broken down 
>> even further, like 2 points for being immune to *either* heat *or* cold. 
> 
>You already can do this - LS: Extreme Temperatures, only vs heat(-1/2). 
>Simple enough. 
 
Not really. After all, the exact limitation is debateable. If a power is 
only half as useful, it should cost half as much - i.e. a -1 limitation for 
'only vs heat'. How much of 'does not eat, sleep, excrete' is 'does not 
sleep'? These need to be defined, thus forming more discrete Life Support 
separations. 
 
>>    - Stretching should be cheaper.  I like 2 points per 1", though this may 
>> be an overreaction. 
> 
>Sounds reasonable. 
 
Personally, I think 1" for 3 points would be best. 
 
>>    - Transform should be more specifically described as well, especially in 
>> terms of what constitutes Cosmetic, Minor, and Major Transforms.  (I tend 
>> to go with this:  if it doesn't affect the character sheet, it's Cosmetic; 
>> if it shifts points around on the sheet or alters specific Powers but 
>> doesn't change the totals, it's Minor; if it changes point totals, it's 
>> Major.) 
> 
>I can think of things which reduce costs that should be Minor (blinding, 
>for example). Also, the rule about "no point increases" desperately needs 
>to be reinstated. 
 
Well, that's hard to say. After all, if Mysterium the Mage and friends are 
falling off a cliff, and Mysterium wants to do a Transform to give everyone 
wings, well, he can't, because of the rule you mention. He can't turn those 
25 point peasants into tigers (233 points according to the HERO Bestiary). 
And so on. Perhaps the introduction of some sort of 'system shock' with 
respect to Transforms on living organisms would limit the abuse. I dunno. 
 
>>    - Damage Shield should be clarified so that *any* significant contact, 
>> including the character with DS making an attack against the target, will 
>> cause damage. 
> 
>Rather, they should reiterate the fact that the character with DS making 
>an attack against the target _doesn't_ cause damage. If you want to do 
>that, buy a normal attack version. 
 
Don't agree, UNLESS you're in the 'you can activate as many attack powers as 
you want' camp. If I throw up a 'flame shroud' Damage Shield and then punch 
somebody, I should expect that my DS does damage as well. After all, what's 
the diff between MY flame shrouded fist striking someone or somebody 
striking me with their fist, hitting the flame shroud? 
 
>>    - Reduced END should be half END for +1/4, 1 END for +1/2, 0 END for 
>> +3/4, and Persistent for +1. 
> 
>I don't see the point of the "1 END" level. 
 
Me neither. Though I _would_ like to see an official modifier, 'Costs END to 
Activate, but not Maintain', though I'm not sure what it's worth. Probably a 
+1/4). 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:39:30 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re:Champions 5th edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>At the risk of getting lynched I would like to say that one thing 
>Fuzion did that I would like to see in a 5th edition of Champions is the 
>change in the Damage class table. 
>	Make Damage class three killing attack be 3d6K not 1d6K. It would make 
>it a lot less confusing. 
>	I think it wouldn't destroy any 4th edition characters just make it 
>where you had to do a little math before you used them(math is something 
>no Champions player should have a problem with). 
 
So you are saying that 1 Damage Class would equal 3d6 K (killing) meaning it  
would translate to 9d6 Normal?  Yes, I can see that ruining a lot of 4th  
Edition characters.  The amount of power they would get for just one damage  
class would be horrible.  Or am I misunderstanding you somewhere here?  So  
now I would have to buy 1/3 Damage class just to get 3d6 Normal damage or  
1/9 Damage Class to equal 1 dice of normal damage?  To much math for me.   
Like I said, please explain further if I'm confused to what you are saying.   
Otherwise, maybe I'm pointing something out here that would suggest not  
making 1 Damage Class equal to 3d6 Killing.  Take it easy and talk at you later. 
 
 
Sparx 
 
===================================================== 
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children. 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:42:18 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Gold Rush Games Mailing List??? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> > Hey, that's better than I got it. I go to the store here in San 
> >Francisco (Gamescape on Divisadero) and ask for Ultimate Martial Artist on 
> >disk and get: 
> > 
> > "doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business." 
> > 
>    [Sensible Action #1 clipped] 
> > 
> > "doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business." 
> > 
>    [Sensible Action #2 clipped] 
> > 
> > "doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business." 
> > 
>    [Theoretical Sensible Action clipped] 
> > 
> > "doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business." 
> 
>    Since you live in the same general area, maybe you should email Bruce 
> Harlick and have him go down there and explain things to the people there. 
 
    Yeah, but considering my luck here; they'd probably just tell him: 
    "doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business." 
:) 
I think I'll just send off a check to Hero Plus in a month or two. Course I no 
longer have 
unlimited Printing access, so it's not of much use to me. And I don't want that 
3 ring binder 
monster. :( 
    Nor do I want to pay the cost of getting both paper and disk, then going 
through the hassle of 
getting them NOT to hole punch the paper. 
 
 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:51:39 -0500 
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net 
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood 
CC: Champs Email List <champ-l@omg.org> 
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ha! I KNEW it!! Magic is EVIL!!!] 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Jeff 
I would hasten to remind you that my religious views were in response to a 
posting on the list. I have noticed that this list doesn't exactly stay on 
course as far as discussing only Champions relatred material but I agree with 
the general consensus that the discussion should be continued via private Email. 
That leaves you. I don't understand the depths of you anger nor the ferocity of 
your rebuke. But let me just say this: If  anyone has a anti-christian sentiment 
to express, and it is their constitutional right to do so, expect me to reply. I 
will contend for the Faith as the Bible puts it. So should something similar 
happen in the future, thicken your skin. 
 
Love in Christ 
Kev 
 
 
Jeff O'Connor wrote: 
 
> Kevin: 
> 
> I don't give one whit about your fundamentalist views where this mailing 
> list is concerned.  I think it is just peachy that you have reconciled your 
> particular religious world-view with your hobbies, but frankly I really 
> don't give a damn about the finer points of the former.  Please keep your 
> religious views out of this mailing list - while they have their place, the 
> Champions mailing list really isn't it. 
> 
> Thank You. 
> 
 
 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:51:46 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sunday, December 14, 1997 4:57 AM, Michael Sprague wrote: 
 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>>   If a larger power "Does Not Work Under Certain Circumstances," 
then any 
>> Power that's Linked to it should have it as well.  I can think of 
no 
>reason 
>> not to. 
> 
>Then think a little harder.  There are plenty of reasons why the 
large 
>power might not work but the power linked to it could ... if it 
weren't 
>linked.  Your simply combining two different powers here, and each 
can have 
>it's own SFX, Advantages and Limitations.  I can see no reason why 
the 
>_must_ be the same. 
 
 
Because they automatically are. If I have a power "Does not work 
underwater", and another power Linked to that one, the second power 
_automatically_ does not work underwater. So long as a limitation 
prevents a power from being used at all, any power linked to it 
automatically suffers the same limitation. 
 
Now, if the power is limited in a fashion that allows it to be used, 
but is useless, _then_ the linked power does not need the same 
limitation. If I have an EB, "Does not damage inanimate objects", and 
a linked RKA, the RKA does not need that limitation. 
 
Thus, "Does not work when X" should be applied to both, but "Does not 
affect X" doesn't have to be. 
 
>>  But no interpretation of it that I've ever seen before you has 
ever 
>> allowed non-proportional use, nor the use of the larger Power 
without the 
>> use of the Linked Power.  Those are *extremely* important balancers 
for 
>> this Limitation. 
> 
>Then you haven't been around this argument long enough ... this is 
the 
>first time I think I have read about forcing the powers to be 
proportional 
>(though granted, I skipped the last two times Linked was debated). 
There 
>is _nothing_ in the book to even imply that the Linked powers must be 
used 
>proportionally.  I'm not saying it's a bad idea, it's not ... just 
that 
>since it's not in the book, and thus would be a house ruling. 
 
It was the official ruling in the original verson of Linked, back in 
the 2nd or 3rd ed. Furthermore, if you do _not_ require this, then I 
can use the powers almost entirely separately, thereby eliminating the 
Limitation that Linked is supposed to create. 
 
>The concept that the larger Power must also use the Linked Power is 
pure 
>bull, and had nothing to do with balancing the Limitation.  If you 
applied 
>the Limitation to both powers, then I could see your point.  But 
since you 
>don't I just can't agree. 
 
You can't add the Limitation to both powers, because it is a) 
forbidden, and b) a worthless point crock. Consider these powers: 
 
66 20d6 EB, Linked 
3  1 hex Change Environment "Create light", Linked 
69 Total 
 
A complete point crock. For a cost of 3 pts, the character saves ten 
times as many points, with no Limitation on the larger power _AT ALL_. 
 
No matter whether or not you use Linked to force both powers to be 
linked or only the lesser, _only_ the lesser can _ever_ take the 
Limitation. 
 
Filksinger 
 
X-Sender: shelley@mail.mactyre.net 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:53:15 -0800 
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net> 
Subject: Re: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:15 AM 12/15/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>>    Hey fellow Listers, what do you think of this?  We've been languishing 
>> for years with little or no official presence on the list, and now we have 
>> a publisher (Mark), someone with a book in press (Patrick) and one with a 
>> book in process (me).  Is this list getting better, or what?   :-] 
> 
>That's two with books in process, Bob! 
 
Well, three, actually.  =) 
 
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre 
www.mactyre.net 
 
Your children will see the stars. 
--Robert A. Heinlein 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:54:45 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
Subject: Re: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> >> 
>    Awesome!   :-] 
>    This place is really getting thick with official presence.  Now if we 
> could only get one of The Big Guys to subscribe, but I think Mark will have 
> to suffice for that (sort of like wanting the President of the United 
> States and getting the President pro tem of the Senate -- not quite the 
> same thing, but still impressive). 
 
    Hey at least we're not getting Dan Quayle. :) (insert image of crossing 
fingers.) 
 
-- 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:00:04 -0500 
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net 
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood 
Subject: I stand chastised 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I apologize for any hurt feelings out there. I realize that anything 
beyond my first reply would have this effect. I hope my fellow 
Christians on the list would understand the source of my zeal. The Bible 
says contend for the Faith. The discussion has gone to private email. 
 
Love in Christ 
Kev 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:03:32 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> At the risk of getting lynched I would like to say that one thing 
> Fuzion did that I would like to see in a 5th edition of Champions is the 
> change in the Damage class table. 
>         Make Damage class three killing attack be 3d6K not 1d6K. It would make 
> it a lot less confusing. 
>         I think it wouldn't destroy any 4th edition characters just make it 
> where you had to do a little math before you used them(math is something 
> no Champions player should have a problem with). 
 
     Are you therefore saying multiply all current killing attack by 3? making 
them much more 
lethal (as fuzion does). Or making 1 kDC = 3 nDC? 
 
    As opposed to the current system of 1DC=1DC=1dn=5pts worth of killing attack 
(3DC=3DC=3dn=1dk) 
 
 
-- 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:10:24 -0600 
From: Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@airmail.net> 
Subject: Germania! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I have fiendish plans for the PCs in my Pulp campaign regarding Germania, 
that sturdy embodiment of Germanic womanhood from GAC. However, I hate the 
name.  Anybody have a better one for this amply-built refugee from a 
Wagnerian opera? 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:13:08 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> While obliterating the stun lottery has a certain appeal, I don't think that 
> making a 12 DC killing attack average 42 body would be a particularly good 
> idea.... 
> The ratio between 'ability to do stun' and 'ability to kill things' in HERO is 
> a bit low (fear my pistol; I cannot possibly kill you with it, but I can sure 
> knock you unconscious!), but I think Fuzion took it a bit too far in the other 
> direction. 
 
     There's a clear reason it's so low in Hero. 
The system was designed to be a four color Super Hero RPG. At the time it was 
first written, the 
genre was mostly a 4C one where nobody died without a major plot device.  Just 
look at how much effort 
it took to kill of Marvel Girl/Pheonix... A huge major story had to be written 
around it. 
    These days a stray bullet from a drug deal gone bad two blocks away can kill a 
major character in 
some parts of the 'modern' genre. Which is where games like Fuzion come in. 
 
    I for one am fond of how hard it is to kill someone in Hero. In my 13 years as 
a Hero GM I've only 
seen two deaths. One in the first game I ran, when a PC shoved a pitchfork through 
a priest (and got me 
with my attempts at doing a heroic game rather annoyed...). The second in a 
Justice Inc game when I 
rolled for a villian shooting his shotgun without looking much as he fled away. 
Rolled a 3 and then 13 
for location. I did a GM overuling and just wounded the PC though, since the scene 
didn't fit for a Hero 
dying. 
 
-- 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:17:14 -0600 
From: Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@airmail.net> 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>If there are any extensive changes at all, I wouldn't mind seeing 
>>something like (but not exactly like) the "Incomplete Character" 
>rules. 
> 
>Yes. I would definitely like to see something like that. 
> 
>Some people hate the Spirit rules, I rather like them. I would like to 
>see them expanded upon, possibly as part of the "Incomplete Character" 
>rules, and cleaned up a bit. 
 
I agree. The spirit rules made it possible for RuneQuest-like spirits, 
which are extremely difficult to do with Desolid, Mind Control, etc., and 
to retain the same feel. 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:19:16 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
Filksinger wrote: 
 
> My personal request: FIX THE FALLING RULES. They are ridiculous now. 
> "The monster is right behind you. What do you do?" "I leap off this 
> building." Yuck. 
 
    Speaking of which, does anybody still have issue 100 of Dragon that 
had that "Bouncing" power? 
 
My copy disapeared some time ago. I think it had three or four other new 
powers as well. 
 
 
> Some people hate the Spirit rules, I rather like them. I would like to 
> see them expanded upon, possibly as part of the "Incomplete Character" 
> rules, and cleaned up a bit. 
 
    Yeah, I like those rules myself. 
 
 
-- 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:25:49 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
John and Ron Prins writes: 
 
> By that argument you could just buy Armor that 'Costs END' to simulate a 
> Force Field. 
 
If it weren't for backwards compatibility, I would want to remove the force 
field power (or remove the armor power).  Force field, armor, and damage 
resistance really should be merged somehow. 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:26:29 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> If Champions III may be used as a reference, when one puts multiple powers 
> into a single framework slot, they are treated as a single power.  No 
> modifiers are required for this to occour.  Use of powers in such a slot is 
> proportional -- if you use your EB at half power, you must use your Flash 
> at half power. 
 
 
	Actually, this is how I run linked right now.  The powers 
(attacks, at least) are bought as one with the linked disadvantage tacked 
on to the lesser.  As is, however, I'm about ready to declare that linked 
is a +-0 modifier in my campaign -- and not from the arguments here.  Too 
much trouble with a couple of certain rules rapists trying to get powers 
"Linked" to things like block, STR usage, or being attacked.  Ug. 
 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 15 Dec 1997 15:33:04 -0500 
Lines: 33 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "EB" == Eric Burns <burns@usmcug.usm.maine.edu> writes: 
 
EB> Yes, this seems reasonable, but how would you handle powers and 
EB> attributes linked to powers without varying degrees?  For instance, 
EB> 10pts of COM linked to Shape Shift. 
 
If you have 30AP of Shapeshift with 10AP of COM linked to it, you must use 
all 10 points of COM.  What the powers are and what they are used for has 
no bearing on this. 
 
This is a good example of why I believe that powers are inherently 
"linkable" without modifiers and without restrictions.  Without any 
limitations, one could use all 30 points of Shapeshift without using any 
extra COM.  With Linked, if you want to use the COM you must use the 
Shapeshift, and they must be used in equal proportion. 
 
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Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
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eCx76P8mQeLmBzAxfNwq6p1+qqLzcumOGPxF2WxGKoLnIWNyGg52jQhtOdi95NP/ 
Y8oyu/LniO0ijgBJYwQ9mpcJE9FOyNBUUnlk1tf9ZohB6/dSXNgWr1mwcjLnWyKv 
yRfgZgiJYw0= 
=tnn4 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 15 Dec 1997 15:35:45 -0500 
Lines: 26 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> Uh, I can think of a number of SFX that would allow both separate and 
F> together uses of a power. 
 
I like real-world examples: M-16A2 with grenade launcher.  Use the rifle, 
use the grenade launcher, or use both.  The last is unwieldly, but it can 
be done. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
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=hhrY 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:36:03 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> > I can think of things which reduce costs that should be Minor (blinding, 
> > for example). Also, the rule about "no point increases" desperately needs 
> > to be reinstated. 
> > 
>     If it was reinstated, how would you do the special effect of the ray gun 
> ordiety that grants powers/turns normals into mutants, etc... 
 
	Agreed.  While definately a power to keep a tight reign on, this 
rule would start more problems than it stops.  I don't look forward to a 
mutant building power construction with lots of multiple Continious AIDs. 
 
> 
> > >    - Always On should have a variation where certain Limitations (END Cost, 
> > > Focus, etc.) represent how the Power is turned off with an effort. 
> > 
> > Good idea. 
> > 
> 
>     Yeah. I have several characters who have to concentrate to keep a power 
> fromgoing off. It's always been a hack to do them in Hero. 
 
	Kinda.  I've always taken the always on then taken the point 
differential between the power with and without always on as a seperate 
buy with its own limitations. 
 
	Sort of like what they did with Solitaire's Widget in the BBB, but 
not quite. 
 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:43:16 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> >You already can do this - LS: Extreme Temperatures, only vs heat(-1/2). 
> >Simple enough. 
> 
> Not really. After all, the exact limitation is debateable. If a power is 
> only half as useful, it should cost half as much - i.e. a -1 limitation for 
> 'only vs heat'. How much of 'does not eat, sleep, excrete' is 'does not 
> sleep'? These need to be defined, thus forming more discrete Life Support 
> separations. 
 
	Maybe.  I'd say most individual powers should be at the 2 pt 
level, with larger categories costing 3 pts.  Sort of like Weapon Fam. 
 
> Well, that's hard to say. After all, if Mysterium the Mage and friends are 
> falling off a cliff, and Mysterium wants to do a Transform to give everyone 
> wings, well, he can't, because of the rule you mention. He can't turn those 
> 25 point peasants into tigers (233 points according to the HERO Bestiary). 
> And so on. Perhaps the introduction of some sort of 'system shock' with 
> respect to Transforms on living organisms would limit the abuse. I dunno. 
 
	Maybe as a suggested optional rule, but not core rules.  Keep 
Transform as-is. 
 
> Don't agree, UNLESS you're in the 'you can activate as many attack powers as 
> you want' camp. If I throw up a 'flame shroud' Damage Shield and then punch 
> somebody, I should expect that my DS does damage as well. After all, what's 
> the diff between MY flame shrouded fist striking someone or somebody 
> striking me with their fist, hitting the flame shroud? 
 
	It's just a matter of balance.  Buy another power that is limited 
to be usable only with your physical attacks.  Perhaps you could look at 
the Digital Hero pages on the Herogames page.  A few weeks back there was 
a wonderful article about dropping HA and using EB to add to your STR 
attack.  I'd suspect this would be what shows up in a later edition when 
it comes to an HA-replacement. 
 
> >I don't see the point of the "1 END" level. 
> 
> Me neither. Though I _would_ like to see an official modifier, 'Costs END to 
> Activate, but not Maintain', though I'm not sure what it's worth. Probably a 
> +1/4). 
 
 
	Ditto on the 1 END level.  I might allow a -1/4 on the +1/2 
advantage, but otherwise. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:46:01 -0800 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> 
Subject: 5th Edition thoughts 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Heres what I would add in or change for 5th edition: 
 
DEFENSE MANEUVER: Defense Maneuver would no longer require a half phase action. 
 
RANGEFINDER: A new talent that allows the character to accurately determine 
the space and range within inches by a perception roll.  This does not 
increase accuracy, buy might be useful for some powers or effects.  Cost: 3 
Points 
 
UNIVERSAL TRANSLATOR: This can be considered sort of a super Linguist skill 
enhancer, and as such, there are some other skill enhancers that can be 
expanded as well.  Each of these works in the same fashion and cost as 
Universal Translator: 
 
	UNIVERSAL GEOGRAPHER: Area & Cultural Knowledge Skills.  
	UNIVERSAL PROFESSIONAL: Professional Skills  
     	UNIVERSAL SCHOLAR: Knowledge Skills  
     	UNIVERSAL SCIENTIST: Science Skills  
     	UNIVERSAL TRAVELER: Contacts  
 
Aids that grant powers a character does not already have are half as effective.  
Thus, if Aidmaster grants Captain Speedo 10 points of Power Defense, and 
Captain Speedo does not already have any, the effect rolled is halved before 
applying it to the good Captain. 
 
A -1 limitation Empathic may be taken for Aid powers, which drains an 
equivalent amount of points from the character as it gives the target 
(useful for heals that absorb wounds, etc). 
 
CHANGE ENVIRONMENT: Should stay with the present structure and cost, but 
lose the area, if you want an area, buy area effect on it.  Increasing the 
area is by the Area Effect rules thereafter, negating the 5 pt cost per 
doubling. 
 
DAMAGE RESISTANCE: extended to include mental defense, against mental KAs. 
 
DARKNESS: loses the automatic area like CE, and increased area is bought by 
the area effect. 
 
DUPLICATION: one heals a lost duplicate as if the points were BODY or must 
define a given circumstance to get the dead duplicate back... you should not 
lose points for having a duplicate killed any more 
 
ENTANGLE: may buy the defense and body separately at 5 pts each, but one may 
not be more than double the other. 
 
EXTRADIMENSIONAL MOVEMENT: If this is bought with the dimension being 
'earth,' it can be bought as a sort of super teleport.  The Power allows the 
character to jump anywhere on earth.  This teleport is only accurate within 
about ten miles, and is not very effective for combat, but will allow 
characters to leap thousands of miles without paying hundreds of points. . 
The closest that such a jump can make is about ten miles as well.  This can 
also be used for stellar travel, defining the dimension  as 'milky way 
galaxy' or 'our dimension.'  In general, the more broad the area, the less 
precise the leap.  Such a jump may be attempted 'blind', without seeing the 
target area, and will never exit in a solid object. 
 
more.... 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:58:01 -0800 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> 
Subject: 5th edition cont'd 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
FORCE WALL: may be bought against defenses such as Power defense, Flash 
defense, etc... but unless the advantage transparent vs physical and energy 
is bought, or some defense against them is bought, any appropriate attack 
will collapse it. 
 
IMAGES: no area effected... buy an area effect on it to increase the area, 
and use those rules to make it larger... 
 
DARKNESS/IMAGES: only costs +5 points to make these powers affect the whole 
sense group of the base sense affected. 
 
MULTIFORM: shouldnt cost more for the base form... 1/5 for that form, and +5 
points for each additional form that is cheaper or the same.  This allows 
the power to act like its supposed to. 
 
REGENERATION: If a character has regeneration, he does not bleed even if 
taken below 0 BOD.  Even slow regeneration is immensely fast healing, and 
wounds will close faster than bleeding will take effect. 
 
SHAPESHIFT: A PC with 40 points of  Shapeshift of an appropriate special 
effect (plasticity, for example) does not have to purchase Desolidification 
to be able to slide under normal doors, flow through air vents, etc.  A good 
rule of thumb is that if such a character can fit his hand through a given 
opening, he can use his power to travel through it.   
 
MINIMUM COSTS: Eliminate all minimum costs, except for Telekinesis, Summon, 
and powers that are bought in blocks like Shapeshift... you get what you pay 
for, just set NNDs to a minimum defense, not its mere existence 
 
SUMMON: add a +1 advantage that the summoned creature is freindly, not a 
slave, but not hostile, and is likely to give assistance. 
 
TRANSFORMATION: Any transform that gives the target more points than it 
started with can only grant real points of powers or disadvantages equal to 
the most effect the transformation dice could roll (30 points for a 5D6 
transform). 
 
TUNNELING: Tunneling can be bought in separate elements, 2 points for each 
inch of Tunneling, and 3 points per defense tunneled through. 
 
more... 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:03:46 -0600 (CST) 
Subject: Germania! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> From: Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@airmail.net> 
>  
> I have fiendish plans for the PCs in my Pulp campaign regarding Germania, 
> that sturdy embodiment of Germanic womanhood from GAC. However, I hate the 
> name.  Anybody have a better one for this amply-built refugee from a 
> Wagnerian opera? 
>  
 
You're kidding right ?  How about Valkyrie ?  
 
Curt  
 
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:06:33 -0800 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> 
Subject: 5th edition, contd 
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a suggested new power: 
 
IMMORTALITY: With this power the PC does not die when reduced to a negative 
number of BOD equal to their full BOD score.  They may be reduced to 
immobile and helpless goo by a sufficient amount of BOD (-2xBOD), but will 
heal over time.  This does not reduce the unpleasant affects of starvation, 
drowning, or dismemberment; powers such as life support and regeneration are 
required to deal with these effects.  If the character can be killed by some 
means (such as decapitation, a stake through the heart, fire, etc.), the 
power is 20 points.  If there is no way to actually kill the character, the 
power costs 30 points.  
 
HOLE IN THE MIDDLE: this should be redefined as making the power not affect 
FREINDS in an area like a hex, when a power affects you adversely to use, 
this is called a limitation.... 
 
SIDE EFFECTS: At the present cost, very low power effects are severely 
punished by this advantage.  Thus, the chart is slightly different: 
 
			-1/4   ½ the power level, minimum 20 PTS 
			-1/2   equal to power level, minimum 50 PTS 
 
CHARGES: No number of charges  is more than a +1/2 Advantage.  Even 
thousands of charges is more limited  than spending no endurance, also a 
+1/2 advantage.  The exception to this is autofire, which has double cost 
for the Reduced END advantage; for autofire attacks, the charges advantage 
can go as high as +1. 
 
AREA EFFECT CONE: instead of having range and costing +1, this costs +1/2 
and has no range... ranged cones are really odd, certainly not the default, 
I would think. 
 
EXPLOSION: Explosions may be defined as Cones (losing 1 DC per 2") or Lines 
(losing 1 DC per 4"); this allows the simulation of shaped charges, claymore 
mines, etc. 
 
AREA EFFECT (RING): This is a hollow circle 1 hex thick, with an inner 
radius the same size as Radius.  The +1/4 Advantage may double either the 
radius or the thickness.  +1/2 advantage. 
 
INVISIBLE POWER EFFECTS: Some powers are not as expensive to make invisible. 
Most non-combat powers cost much less to make them invisible.   
+1/4 to make them invisible to the two common senses, and a total of +1/2 to 
render the power to all senses 
 
this one makes some people rip out their hair, but after playtesting is a 
great addition, trust me: 
IGNORES DAMAGE REDUCTION: This advantage is bought on attacks, and the 
damage that exceeds defenses ignores Damage Reduction the target has bought. 
This can be very brutal to a person who relies on Damage Reduction like 
affects desolidification can be to the desolidified character; consider this 
to have a magnifying glass.  +1/2 advantage 
 
SEEKING: With this advantage, the attack will continue to attempt to hit a 
target until it succeeds.  It is similar to continuous, in that the effect 
will act on it’s own, on the attacker’s phases, but different in that it 
will only take effect once.  The attack is launched and the attacker must 
guide the attack, taking a half phase rolling to hit each phase until the 
attack succeeds.  The power costs END only when first launched, and requires 
the attacker to be able to perceive the target for it to hit.  If the 
attacker cannot see the target any longer, the seeker will launch into a 
straight line like a normal attack that missed, and stop when it hits a 
surface or at it’s maximum range.  The direction traveled may be determined 
randomly if not clear, and as such may return to the attacker!  For a +1/2 
advantage, the attacker can switch targets on his phase, choosing another 
person for the seeker to go after.  Like Continuous, the attacker cannot 
launch another attack while the seeker is in effect.  The seeking power may 
be shut off at any time by the attacker.  With Uncontrolled, this power 
becomes very frightening, and with Autofire, it becomes horrific.  Autofire 
must be bought with the extra cost if this advantage is used.  Consider this 
advantage to have a stop sign next to it. 
 
Seeking is best used for gunboat style ‘mask and unmask’ type of attacks, 
and with limited uses.  A charge does not begin to use it’s power until it 
actually hits, so the player does not need to buy continuous charges to use 
seeker. 
 
Base level: +1/4 advantage 
Can change targets: +1/2 advantage 
 
sorry thats kinda long, but its hard to shorten 
 
more... 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:14:00 -0800 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> 
Subject: 5th edition cont'd 
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VARIABLE ADVANTAGE: The cost for Variable Advantage in the book is listed at 
+1 in addition to the maximum advantage that can be used.  This only results 
in negating the use of this at lower advantage levels, and making it 
incredibly efficient at higher levels.  Instead, the cost is double the 
advantage maximum that can be used (so if the power can have up to +3/4 
advantages on it, the cost is +1 1/2, two times 3/4).  cost=2 times maximum 
advantage 
 
Drains can be targeted at EC and Multipower control costs, lowering the 
maximum power of EVERY power in the structure... this makes people a little 
more wary about buying them in my game, but works well for Genocide and such. 
 
YOUTH: like age, a 5 point disad, with some stat limits... for lil kids, its 
more of a limit to be young than old in  many cases 
 
ATTACKS FROM SURPRISE: Rather than the rule that ambush attacks doing double 
stun, change this to CON being halved for purposes of being stunned.  It is 
easy to be stunned by an attack you don't expect (ever run into a door by 
surprise?), but rarely does this result in unconsciousness. 
 
PULLING YOUR PUNCH: This is attempted at -1 OCV per 5D6, not 3D6. 
 
BEING KNOCKED OUT: As written, the unconsciousness levels are by an easy 
formula of 10 point blocks.  This is simpler to work with, but is not as 
realistic as it could be.  For greater believability, the system used is 
similar, but the first level (up to -10 = recover each phase) is now up to 
-CON, so a victim with a 23 CON would have to be taken below -24 stun (more 
than their 23 CON) to move to the next level of unconsciousness.  From that 
point on, it is the standard 10 point steps.  This helps represent that it 
is harder to put down a very tough guy and make him stay. 
 
This one is a really good idea: 
BLOCK: A block maneuver as now listed is pathetically easy.  The system now 
used is somewhat more challenging, and represents the fact that a more 
expertly executed attack is more difficult to avoid. The Block roll is 
attempted against the DCV the aggressor hit, so if A attacks B, and hits a 8 
DCV, B must make a block roll that would hit an 8 DCV in order to block that 
attack.  This has the effect of making blocks much more difficult to 
achieve, thus the penalties on block and cost for martial art element block 
is in discussion. 
 
more... 
 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:15:57 EST 
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart! 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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<< when a company prints a book it has to way several factors, >> 
 
  I meant, of course, that it has to *weight* several factors. Oi! I need to 
get more sleep! 
 
  Btw, if anyone's BBB has fallen apart, I'd be glad to replace it with a CD 
hardback (sans HeroMaker). All we ask is that you send us the old book (*all* 
of it, please) and then pay for shipping the new books to you ($3). Sound 
fair? 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:15:58 EST 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat 
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<< >Any DEX 29-31 martial artist will have a 15- Acrobatics and since the 
>average of 3d6 is 11, routinely get +2 to his CV *every* Phase.  For only 
>3 points! >> 
 
  ::Sigh:: I forget that some folks don't read between the lines. ;)  Has thou 
forgotten that the GM contr4ols such things as modifiers for combat 
situations, as in a heft penalty to the roll??  ;)  I think a -3 is fair. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:16:01 EST 
Subject: Re: Genre Books 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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<< How much of this hinges soley on the success of San Angelo? >> 
 
  A significant portion. I thought we'd already covered that. ;) 
 
<< I mean if the only people who buy San Angelo are the one's who heard how 
cool it was here on this list, would that stop the printing of a future 'Star 
Hero' or whatever? >> 
 
  We're not handling Star Hero. ;)  But to answering your question, I assure 
you that a lot more folks than just those on this list have heard of San 
Angelo. We've had ads running in Shadis magazine (20,000 copies circ.), the 
Games Quarterly Catalog (which goes to 4,000 retailers), been promoting 
heavily on the net and our web site, and we're also running an ad in an 
upcoming issue of Astro City (10s of thousands of readers). If you're trying 
to convince me that no one's heard of it... they're not paying attention. ;) 
Help spread the word. 
 
<< A lot of people don't go for 'campaign world books' from what I myself 
have seen. >> 
 
  And a lot of people do. 
 
<< Do you Mark know what, outside of the BBB or Hero System Rulebook was 
the best selling Hero book? And if you do know, are you willing to tell us? 
(not that I can think of a reason you wouldn't be.) >> 
 
  I can only tell you what has been the best selling books for *us* (since 
last July). I'll look that info up later when I have time. 
 
<< I know I plan to buy San Angelo. But I can also say I get mixed results 
when I mention it. Anything from 'I don't buy campaign worlds' to 'it's on my 
shopping list' to 'oh? is Mark spamming that again?' >> 
 
  The proof will be in the proverbia pudding. Once the book comes out late 
next month, then we'll see what the reactions are then. 
 
<< But if it doesn't will that stop the presses on the other, non related hero 
items?>> 
 
  We'll be evaluating our position on publishing 4th Ed material after we see 
how the first few books do. I realize that sales will be coming in for a few 
months, and that folks also want to see how we *support* the line. Fear not. 
We won't be slamming the doors if we don't sell a million copies in the first 
month of release. 
 
<< Are they being judged together or seperate? >> 
 
  I really don't want to start going into minutae here. We are a business and 
we have to make business decisions. I think the information we've provided 
about our rationale is more than most companies would discuss. 
 
  I'd feel less comfortable in discussing this any further, primarily because 
I want to avoid the "GRG isn't going to print any more Hero books!" myth that 
would eventually start being propogated on the net. 
 
  Suffice it to say that we will be keeping an eye on sales. For now, we have 
plans for several new 4th Ed books next year, and several more if those do 
decent sales. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:16:10 EST 
Subject: Re: Champions 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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  I'm afraid I cannot address any more comments regarding a 5th Edition. It 
seems I misspoke earlier. I welcome your comments about what you'd like to see 
in future Hero System products from Gold Rush Games, however. 
 
  Thank you. 
 
  Mark Arsenault 
  Gold Rush Games 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:16:15 EST 
Subject: Re: Gold Rush Games Mailing List??? 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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<< ...is there some way to get on a mailing list that would send out product 
info?  Release Dates?  Ads?  I'd prefer snail mail, e-mail is ok, and yes, I 
could always go to the web site.  I was just curious. I know I could always 
receive info here on the mailing list, >> 
 
  We can add you to our PR list, but we generally make announcements in all 
applicable forums (AOL, newsgroups, our web site, etc. 
 
<< but when I go to the gaming shop I go to and say, they said on the InterNet 
that this is out, they look at me clueless, usually, because I'm rushing to  
the store before the release day. >> 
 
  The next time you rush in there and they look at you clueless, tell them to 
get out their copy of Games Quarterly Catalog and look up either "Gold Rush 
Games" or "Champions." No joke. We've had a two page product listing for over 
a year now. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:16:17 EST 
Subject: Re: PART 
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<< You know, when I originally wrote that, I was gonna make a comment about 
how *you* stole *my* idea!  So, I have no other choice but to have my 
lawyers (Dewey, Cheatum & Howe) call you lawyers.  Unless, of course, you 
want to settle out of court and avoid the embarrsing publicity of a Judge 
Ito monitored court battle. >> 
 
  Go ahead. We'll simply use the flux to go back in time and convince all your 
lawyers (as children) to become nurses and bus drivers and such! Bwah hah hah 
hah hah..!! 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:16:18 EST 
Subject: Re: Gold Rush Games Mailing List??? 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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<< "doesn't exist, Hero games went out of business." >> 
 
  That's too bad (and ignorant. They must not want to sell to you too badly. 
Perhaps you could send us their mailaing address so we can put them on our 
mailing list? 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:16:21 EST 
Subject: Re: Special Offers to the list 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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<< No darnit! I refuse to get a discount! In fact, I'm going to pay double, no 
make that triple, heck. TEN times the cover price!!!! >> 
 
  I think you have us mixed up with another company... ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:19:28 -0800 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> 
Subject: 5th Edition concluded 
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Last but not least, a simple way of handling damage.  There are two damage 
structures, normal and killing.  Each one has a ranged and a STR adds damage 
element.  Thus, structure them like this: 
 
        NORMAL ATTACK: 5 points per die, defined either as ranged or STR 
adds           damage.  
 
        KILLING ATTACK: 15 points per die, defined as either ranged or STR 
adds         damage. 
 
        +1/2: add ranged or STR adds damage as an element to the attack. 
 
voila, consistent, simple, fits the damage class structure, and works with 
the present system. 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:35:41 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: 5th edition, contd 
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On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Christopher Taylor wrote: 
 
> SIDE EFFECTS: At the present cost, very low power effects are severely 
> punished by this advantage.  Thus, the chart is slightly different: 
>  
> 			-1/4   ½ the power level, minimum 20 PTS 
> 			-1/2   equal to power level, minimum 50 PTS 
 
I was wondering about a variation on Side Effects, where the power affects 
not the character but his environment.  For example, you crank up your 
mega-chi Aid and create a minor shockwave centered on your person.  People 
get knocked over, your surroundings get wrecked, etc. 
 
> AREA EFFECT CONE: instead of having range and costing +1, this costs +1/2 
> and has no range... ranged cones are really odd, certainly not the default, 
> I would think. 
 
I agree.  I was also wondering about trying to build the really big 
cone/reduced by range affect for things like sonic shouts and flameblasts. 
Would there be away to ignore the max length of the cone in a case like 
this? 
  
> AREA EFFECT (RING): This is a hollow circle 1 hex thick, with an inner 
> radius the same size as Radius.  The +1/4 Advantage may double either the 
> radius or the thickness.  +1/2 advantage. 
 
We developed something like this to simulate certain wilder martial arts 
tricks.  It was no-range, had a hole in the middle, and affected all of 
your adjacent hexes.  Base cost was +3/4. 
 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Subject: Re: Germania! 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 16:48:04 -0500 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
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On 12/15/97 3:10 PM, Guy Hoyle (ghoyle1@airmail.net) Said: 
 
>I have fiendish plans for the PCs in my Pulp campaign regarding Germania, 
>that sturdy embodiment of Germanic womanhood from GAC. However, I hate the 
>name.  Anybody have a better one for this amply-built refugee from a 
>Wagnerian opera? 
> 
Brunhilde ? 
Valkyrie ? 
 
 
                                         |  David A. Fair 
        Think Different                  |  SDS International 
                                         |  dfair@sdslink.com 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:48:24 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: What it sees... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Okay, I've started my adaption of the cast of "Big Trouble in Little 
China".  I plan on presenting David Lo Pan, Egg Shen, Jack Burton, Wang 
Chi, the Storms, Lo Pan's two monsters and a generic template for a Chang 
Sing and a Wing Cong. 
 
Now, I have two questions: 
 
1) The Guardian's of power or "what it sees Lo Pan knows".  This would be 
a simple Mind Link, right?  Or should I go with some strange form of 
Clairsentience Useable by Others?  And how about the Lo Pan speaks through 
the Guardian trick? Is this a part of Mind Link, or Images from the 
Guardian? 
 
2) Egg and Lo Pan's magic duel with the glowing Chinese warriors fighiting 
in the air.  Any suggestios as to what that was?  I thought some sort of 
mental combat, but it looked to last several phases... 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:50:03 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << >Any DEX 29-31 martial artist will have a 15- Acrobatics and since the 
> >average of 3d6 is 11, routinely get +2 to his CV *every* Phase.  For only 
> >3 points! >> 
>  
>   ::Sigh:: I forget that some folks don't read between the lines. ;)  Has thou 
> forgotten that the GM contr4ols such things as modifiers for combat 
> situations, as in a heft penalty to the roll??  ;)  I think a -3 is fair. 
 
Then such a ruling had better be clearly stated in the text for the skill. 
As it stands, I wouldn't use it. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:57:46 -0800 (PST) 
From: Dennis C Hwang <dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu> 
Subject: Re: Germania! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Guy Hoyle wrote: 
 
> I have fiendish plans for the PCs in my Pulp campaign regarding Germania, 
> that sturdy embodiment of Germanic womanhood from GAC. However, I hate the 
> name.  Anybody have a better one for this amply-built refugee from a 
> Wagnerian opera? 
 
Well, you mentioned it yourself; why not go straight to the source? 
Brunhilde is evocative (as the valkyrie), or Sieglinde (Sigurd's sister, I 
believe) might work as well.  There was also Queen Gutrune (from the 
Siegfried part of the cycle), but she didn't have a really major role 
aside from as a plot device. 
 
I don't recall the names of the three Rhinemaidens, though, or those of   
any of the other valkyries.  Sorry. ;) 
 
--Dennis 
************************************************************* 
*   dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu   *   xenopathologist at large!   * 
************************************************************* 
*  Hey, I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons &   * 
*  Dragons and not learn a little something about courage.  * 
*                                                           * 
*                       --Blaine Faulkner                   * 
*                       "Jose Chung's From Outer Space"     * 
************************************************************* 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:25:04 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:31 AM 12/15/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>>    - Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb.  My own 
>> structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for lesser utility 
>> (3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single tentacle 
>> or prehensile tail). 
> 
>That was one of the silliest parts of the previous edition of Champions; I 
>certainly have no desire to see it return. Building the 100-armed giants 
>of Greek mythology should _not_ mandate a Power on the order of 1000 
>points. 
 
   But should it cost the same as merely having a prehensile tail? 
   Would 5 points per 2X arms (with appropriate limitations for 
intermediate numbers or non-digital limbs) be better?  Those 100-armed 
giants would then spend about 28 points for Extra Limbs. 
 
>>    - Force Field and Force Wall should have Flash Defense, Mental Defense, 
>> and Power Defense methods built right in. 
> 
>Force Wall, maybe. Force Field would be pointless. (Just buy them Costs 
>END.) 
 
   And add on Damage Reduction for them, which Costs END?  (One of the 
Ultimate books introduced the idea of Killing Attacks, AVLD, Does BODY, 
which would call for these Defenses being Resistant.) 
 
>>    - Hand-to-Hand Attack should *not* be omitted; this would leave us with 
>> the old kludge of "+X STR, Only for Damage."  Use Opal's version instead. 
> 
>The old kludge works fine IMO. 
 
   For your campaign, I accept it; but (as someone else pointed out) one 
could also buy Force Field as Armor that Costs END.  Sometimes a unique 
power is just easier than a complex construct, especially if it's 
representing something fairly common. 
 
>>    - Instant Change should be scaled.  (My scale is 5 pts = instant, 4 pts 
>> = half Phase, 3 pts = Phase, 2 pts = Turn, 1 pt = minute, normal = 5 
>> minutes, with all costs doubled for "any clothing.") 
> 
>What's the point? Just use Extra Time to simulate this. 
 
   Same as previous response. 
 
>>    - Life Support should have some of its elements able to be broken down 
>> even further, like 2 points for being immune to *either* heat *or* cold. 
> 
>You already can do this - LS: Extreme Temperatures, only vs heat(-1/2). 
>Simple enough. 
> 
>> Also, 1-2 points for retarded aging is a cool idea. 
> 
>Same comment. 
 
   Again, same response.   :-] 
   And again, for all of these I see your reasoning, and I don't think 
you're being at all unreasonable.  My suggestions just make character 
building a tad simpler. 
 
>>    - Transform should be more specifically described as well, especially in 
>> terms of what constitutes Cosmetic, Minor, and Major Transforms.  (I tend 
>> to go with this:  if it doesn't affect the character sheet, it's Cosmetic; 
>> if it shifts points around on the sheet or alters specific Powers but 
>> doesn't change the totals, it's Minor; if it changes point totals, it's 
>> Major.) 
> 
>I can think of things which reduce costs that should be Minor (blinding, 
>for example). Also, the rule about "no point increases" desperately needs 
>to be reinstated. 
 
   I'm with you on the point increases, to an extent.  I'd actually limit 
the increase (*or* decrease) in points for a Major Transform to BODY x 
1d6-1 (sound familiar?  You could even apply Increased STUN Multiple). 
 
>>    - Explosion should be +3/4 so it doesn't cost the same as AE: One Hex. 
> 
>The increased precision given by AE: One Hex balances the somewhat- 
>increased damage of Explosion. Leave them the same. 
 
   What increased precision?  Both are against DCV 3. 
 
>>    - Damage Shield should be clarified so that *any* significant contact, 
>> including the character with DS making an attack against the target, will 
>> cause damage. 
> 
>Rather, they should reiterate the fact that the character with DS making 
>an attack against the target _doesn't_ cause damage. If you want to do 
>that, buy a normal attack version. 
 
   Why?  In the source material (comics), a character surrounded by 
something that is representable by a Damage Shield will do the damage no 
matter who initiates the contact.  Rogue, the Human Torch, and the female 
Firebrand are the only ones I can think of offhand with Damage Shield 
powers, and that's how it seems to work. 
   In fact, the only Special Effects that I can think of where a Damage 
Shield would work only if someone else initiates contact are unusual cases 
that are better represented with a Limitation. 
 
>>    - Reduced END should be half END for +1/4, 1 END for +1/2, 0 END for 
>> +3/4, and Persistent for +1. 
> 
>I don't see the point of the "1 END" level. 
 
   It's a sort of "minimal effort" thing.  Maybe my 12d6 Energy Blast 
doesn't take up a full 3 END to use (the 1/2 END level), but does take some 
effort.  (It's a lot less awkward than buying 0 END on all but the first 2d6.) 
 
>I'd also codify the difference between Persistent and Uncontrolled. (My 
>view: Persistent makes a Constant Power Persistent (duh:)), Uncontrolled 
>makes a Constant Power Instant.) 
 
   I'm not sure I understand this, but we can work it out later.   :-] 
 
>>    - Extra Time should specify whether the time listed is including or in 
>> addition to the half-phase needed to launch an attack with a Power. 
> 
>Better, they should include both the current version of Extra Time (a 
>delay before the Power can be activated, but during which you can do other 
>things) and the old version (actually increasing the type (or number) of 
>action(s) you need to expend to activate the Power). 
 
   Agreed -- that *is* better. 
 
>>    - Linked should be fixed and specific.  My recommendation is to go with 
>> the basic, existing -1/2 bonus to make both Powers used in proportion, 
>> essentially being treated as a single Power for most purposes.  A character 
>> could also have a "one-way" Link, letting one Power be used up to the level 
>> that the other is, for -1/4.  Linked should still be applicable only to the 
>> smaller Power (but please specify that this means Active Points). 
> 
>I agree, more or less. The current version of Linked, with a 
>proportionality restriction added on ("this Power can only be used when 
>Power X is used, at up to the same proportion of total power at which that 
>one is used") should be demoted to -1/4. Add another -1/4 Limitation which 
>states "this Power automatically goes off when Power X is used, at 
>proportionate power level at least equal to that at which Power X is 
>used". Combine these 2 and you have a -1/2 Limitation which works in the 
>same way that most people currenlty play Linked. 
 
   I think that's roughly the same thing that I suggested; only the tags 
were different. 
 
>>    - DNPC should allow +5 points for every 2X individuals on one Roll. 
>> Also allow DNCP Rolls of 5 or less (Rarely) for +0 points, and 17 or less 
>> (Constantly) for +20 points. 
>>    - Hunted, similarly, should allow Hunted Rolls of 5 or less (Rarely) for 
>> -5 points, and 17 or less (Constantly) for +15 points. 
> 
>Maybe, but I'd put a caveat stating that the 17- level shouldn't be used 
>unless the character in question is focal to the campaign. 14- is already 
>really, really high. 
 
   100% Agreed here.  The 17- DNPC should be someone who is basically 
always around (like Steve Urkel), and the 17- Hunter is the vengeful ninja 
that seriously needs to get a life. 
 
>>    - Secret Identity should become simply Secret, with scales similar to 
>> those used for Physical and Psychological Limitations. 
> 
>Would certainly improve its cross-genre utility. 
 
   Cross-genre, nothing; I've seen Champions characters, PCs even, who had 
"secrets" that weren't exactly "Secret Identities."  They were worked in as 
either Secret IDs anyway, or as Psych Limits.  I just figured to split the 
difference. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:28:49 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:32 AM 12/15/97 -0800, Rook wrote: 
>> >    - Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb.  My own 
>> > structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for lesser utility 
>> > (3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single tentacle 
>> > or prehensile tail). 
>> 
>> That was one of the silliest parts of the previous edition of Champions; I 
>> certainly have no desire to see it return. Building the 100-armed giants 
>> of Greek mythology should _not_ mandate a Power on the order of 1000 
>> points. 
> 
>    Agreed. Since each limb in champs does not give an extra attack, 
having one 
>extraor one million extra makes no noticable effect on the game. If it was 1 
>point per limb Prehensile 
>Hair would either 
>A: get VERY expensive. 
>B: be forced to all move together as 'one item', killing the 'medusa 
effect' for 
>all but multi-million point 
>    characters. 
 
   How about 5 points per 2X limbs, Costs END? 
 
>> >    - Flash, as mentioned elsewhere, should be 5 points per die, with each 
>> > BODY pip of Flash working for 1 segment.  (It makes Flash Defense more 
>> > balanced.) 
>> 
>> Sounds okay. 
> 
>    And / or raise the cost of Flash Defense to 5 points per point of 
defense. 
 
   Ick.  That would be prohibitive, especially for Flash AVLDs.  At worst, 
5 points per defense, and only if the 5/die Flash isn't implemented. 
 
>> >    - Linked should be fixed and specific.  My recommendation is to go 
with 
>> I agree, more or less. The current version of Linked, with a 
> 
>    Kind of a moot issue since I can use 'limited' to do it however I 
>want already. 
 
   With that attitude, one could eliminate all of the existing Limitations 
and just use Limited Power for everything. 
   Heck, if you really want to get right down to it, you can use "Linked" 
to do it however you want now, and you always could. 
   Codifying these things really makes the game much easier for strangers 
and newcomers, though. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:30:34 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:38 PM 12/15/97 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
>>>    - Reduced END should be half END for +1/4, 1 END for +1/2, 0 END for 
>>> +3/4, and Persistent for +1. 
>> 
>>I don't see the point of the "1 END" level. 
> 
>Me neither. Though I _would_ like to see an official modifier, 'Costs END to 
>Activate, but not Maintain', though I'm not sure what it's worth. Probably a 
>+1/4). 
 
   I'd give it +/- 1/4 also.  (Plus or minus depending, of course, on 
whether it's applied as an Advantage or as a Limitation.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:36:46 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition thoughts 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:46 PM 12/15/97 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote: 
>Heres what I would add in or change for 5th edition: 
> 
>DEFENSE MANEUVER: Defense Maneuver would no longer require a half phase 
action. 
 
   Nah, just use the version from TUMA. 
 
>RANGEFINDER: A new talent that allows the character to accurately determine 
>the space and range within inches by a perception roll.  This does not 
>increase accuracy, buy might be useful for some powers or effects.  Cost: 3 
>Points 
 
   I really like this one, if only because I think it was originally my 
idea on the list.   ;-] 
 
>Aids that grant powers a character does not already have are half as 
effective.  
>Thus, if Aidmaster grants Captain Speedo 10 points of Power Defense, and 
>Captain Speedo does not already have any, the effect rolled is halved before 
>applying it to the good Captain. 
> 
>A -1 limitation Empathic may be taken for Aid powers, which drains an 
>equivalent amount of points from the character as it gives the target 
>(useful for heals that absorb wounds, etc). 
 
   I agree with both of these; the latter especially if the widely 
recommended doubling of the cost of Aid take splace. 
 
>CHANGE ENVIRONMENT: Should stay with the present structure and cost, but 
>lose the area, if you want an area, buy area effect on it.  Increasing the 
>area is by the Area Effect rules thereafter, negating the 5 pt cost per 
>doubling. 
> 
>DARKNESS: loses the automatic area like CE, and increased area is bought by 
>the area effect. 
 
   So what's the point/utility of non-AE CE and Darkness? 
 
>DUPLICATION: one heals a lost duplicate as if the points were BODY or must 
>define a given circumstance to get the dead duplicate back... you should not 
>lose points for having a duplicate killed any more 
 
   Good idea.  Permanently dead Duplicates should take a Limitation. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:43:55 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:19 PM 12/15/97 -0800, Rook wrote: 
>> Some people hate the Spirit rules, I rather like them. I would like to 
>> see them expanded upon, possibly as part of the "Incomplete Character" 
>> rules, and cleaned up a bit. 
> 
>    Yeah, I like those rules myself. 
 
   Same here, though I agree that they need to be cleaned up a bit. 
   One thing I've done is introduce Spirit Defense as a Power, rather than 
have Spirit-based Powers just work on good ol' Power Defense. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:48:33 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:05 PM 12/15/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
> 
>>> I would suggest that that particlur rule was placed to stop people 
>>> saying "I have a 3d6 flash.  I will link my 12d6 energy blast to it. 
>>> -1/2 on the energy blast, thanks" 
> 
>BG>    Precisely.  So how would you work such a construct where the Flash 
>BG> always went off with the EB? 
> 
>If Champions III may be used as a reference, when one puts multiple powers 
>into a single framework slot, they are treated as a single power.  No 
>modifiers are required for this to occour.  Use of powers in such a slot is 
>proportional -- if you use your EB at half power, you must use your Flash 
>at half power. 
 
   But if I put the "Linked" Limitation on that exact same Flash, then I 
can use the EB without it, right?  Or am I missing something here? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:54:14 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Kurt's comments 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 06:04 PM 12/14/97 -0500, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< Well, basically i'd ask us all to recognise the difference between genuine 
>heros who can make a difference(even in a gritty setting) and joke-heros who 
>don't really stand a chance. . . .. >> 
> 
>  I don't understand the reference here. Please have pity on me. I read too 
>darned many messages and threads a day to remember them all! :D What does this 
>have to do with Kurt Busiek's comments about San Angelo? 
> 
>  Mark @ GRG 
> 
 
No, not san angelo. .. i meant the genre in general. I apologise  
if i was misunderstood 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:56:13 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Slipperiness 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:21 PM 12/15/97 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>>   This is what I currently have down for the effect of a Slick.  Tell me 
>>what you think. 
>> 
>>   If the Transform is successful, then the ground becomes slippery. 
>>Characters and vehicles using Ground Movement must make a DEX Roll at -3 
>>(or a Combat Vehicle Operations or similar Roll at no penalty) when 
>>entering the hex or lose control (see Chapter Three for more details on 
>>this).  Even if this Roll is successful, a second Roll at -2 (in addition 
>>to any other Modifiers) must be made if the character or vehicle attempts 
>>to accelerate, decelerate, or turn while in the affected area. 
>>   At the GM's option, every BODY pip above the 16 needed to successfully 
>>enact the Transform, up to the maximum that can be rolled on the dice, adds 
>>another -1 to the DEX or Combat Vehicle Operations Rolls. 
> 
>I think this beats any previously published solution to this slippery 
>problem, but I still have a few qualms with it. While Transform seems like 
>the most "legal" way to go about creating the effect, you're stuck with the 
>power working vs. BODY. With this approach, it's easier to make dirt or 
>sand slippery than to affect a paved or metal surface - five minutes of 
>rain will prove that wrong. 
 
   Ah, but the rain has a lot of Cumulative attacks built up, eh?   :-] 
 
>Your effects for the power make sense; I'll assume you deal with what it 
>means for a running character to "lose control" in Chapter Three. I would 
>like to see some mention of defenses against a slippery surface - does 
>Clinging stop it? Is it entirely dependent on SFX? If you're feeling really 
>ambitious, you might try to build studded snow tires. 
 
   Yes, losing control is in Chapter Three.  It's essentially the same as 
what' in An Eye for An Eye. 
   As for Clinging, good point.  It would probably depend on the Special 
Effect, and possibly warrant a -1/4 Limitation. 
 
>Really, though, I think slipperiness needs to be a power. Creating a new 
>power probably isn't within the scope of TUSV, so whatever you use will 
>necessarily be a bit of a kludge. 
 
   I disagree here, but not strongly.  If Slipperiness was brought out as a 
Power, I'd probably use it, and might even like it.  But I don't think it's 
that necessary because it's not really that common. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: "Matt Korth" <korthmat@cps.msu.edu> 
Organization: I don't think so, Tim. 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:58:15 -0400 
Subject: Re: Open Apology 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> >If you feel you really have to flame me for opening up a religious debate on 
> >the list, go right ahead -- I deserve it (*sigh*). But at least know that I 
> >realize I did make a mistake, and I'm sorry for it.  The only religious 
> >arguments that belong on this list are Linked debates (*duck*). 
>  
>    Speaking for myself, at in all probability for other Christians on the 
> list as well, you can consider yourself forgiven.   :-] 
 
...unless you start the GLD again... :) 
 
--M 
-- 
korthmat@cps.msu.edu   http://www.cps.msu.edu/~korthmat 
*** People who send me UBE/UCE will be crucified. *** 
"Believe me, Mike, I calculated the odds of this succeeding 
versus the odds that I was doing something incredibly stupid... 
and I went ahead anyway."  --Crow, _MST3K: The Movie_ 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:27:20 -0500 
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net 
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
My BBB hasn't started to disintegrate yet. I have sealed it in a bag. I can't get 
myself to part with it. Maybe it is the sentimental value of having it 
autographed by Rob Bell, Steve Peterson, Aaron Allston, and George MacDonald. "Be 
a Hero" Rob wrote. Words I GM by to this day! 
 
Kev 
 
GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << when a company prints a book it has to way several factors, >> 
> 
>   I meant, of course, that it has to *weight* several factors. Oi! I need to 
> get more sleep! 
> 
>   Btw, if anyone's BBB has fallen apart, I'd be glad to replace it with a CD 
> hardback (sans HeroMaker). All we ask is that you send us the old book (*all* 
> of it, please) and then pay for shipping the new books to you ($3). Sound 
> fair? 
> 
>   Mark @ GRG 
 
 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:35:29 +0000 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: KARZA DRONES 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Michael Surbrook wrote: 
> > >> >   +2 SPEED, Only for Job related actions or to fire weapon. 
> > >> Arg. Am I the only one who thinks SPD 'only for X' should be outlawed in 
> > the 
> > Yes, you are the only one. See the Hydra in the Hero Bestiary for details. 
 
I avoid extra speed for characters like a plague. 
 
For one Hydra I wrote up I did each head a seperate creature with a 
dependance on the body. That way if the body took enough damage the heads 
would 
die off. Though I also had the heads stagger their speed. I think each head 
was 
a two speed, but #1 would go on 1 & 7, #2 would on 2 & 8, etc... 
Looked cumbersome, but worked out well for me. 
 
 
> > >Egyptoid: Please put your costs down for disads and the like. I'm curious 
> > what 
> > >you consider to be the fair costs. 
> > Horse-$#%@.  I get enough flames from people who think I write the craziest 
> > characters going. I'm not going to add numbers and invite bombardment from 
> > you number crunchers as well. I prefer to run a role-playing game, not a 
> > lesson in 
>  
> I don't number crunch.  I put down point values so people can understand 
> how I built something and get a quick assessment of the character's power 
> level.  Would *you* buy a Hero Suppliment that just listed stats and 
> powers with no total costs? 
 
I number crunch, but I critize based on concept or design. I just like seeing 
how something was built. 
 
-Mark Lemming 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:39:49 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:38 AM 12/14/97 -0800, Captain Spith wrote: 
 
>>   One other note. Keep in mind that, primarily because of financial 
>> considerations, we are looking at printing the Hero System rules book 
>> separately, with Champions being a genre book. Champions would have the super 
>> power rules in there, as well as a *much* better treatment of the genre, 
>> examples, no "official universe" inside (rather examples and notes on creating 
>> several different types, etc., but the Hero System "core" rules would be in 
>> the Hero System rules book. 
> 
>   Great!  Some would look at it as forcing a gamer to buy two books, 
>but it makes sense to seperate core rules from genre-specific stuff.  On 
>the other hand, it would make it vital to have extensive and precise 
>examples in the rulebook to be SURE to cover all genres; super-heroes 
>using powers raise different questions than gunslingers using guns. (at 
>least they often do). 
> 
 
Sawwy to be a wet blanket, but that would be kinda hideously deforming 
and limiting the whole system for no good reason. All the mechanics in  
one place. Period. 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:40:49 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 06:03 PM 12/14/97 -0500, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< Major Mistake. The powers rules have many applications outside of 
>Super Powers. I think the Hero system rulebook should be the same size as 
>it was in 4th edition.>> 
> 
>  My bad. I think the plan *was* (or, rather, *is*) to have all the character 
>creation rules (including the "powers") in the Hero System Rules book, and 
>treat the Champions book as the campaign book (perhaps with a few extra 
>goodies, and certainly plenty of clear examples!). 
> 
>  Mark @ GRG 
> 
 
yay! *g* Best to focus on interpretations- i.e. how to sue duper-talents,  
good ways to do wierd powers, ect. .  
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:41:59 +0000 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
GoldRushG wrote: 
>  
> << As a house rule, I'd allow the warning shot to not take anytime, but the 
> End 
> cost or charge would be spent. There are times when following the letter of 
> the rules can be a pain.>> 
>  
>   Why? Can't a PC spread his EB, or use *up to* his max dice in the blast? Why 
> not let him use *less*? Say, a 1/2 die or 1 Pip Energy Blast, effectively 
> making it a 0 END "show of force?" 
>  
>   Man, some of you guys are harsh GMs! <LOL> 
>  
>   Mark @ GRG 
 
If they're trying for a show of force they might want to show something 
other than minimal effect. A spread blast would be fine. 
 
-Mark 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:43:28 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: That's What I Want... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:46 PM 12/14/97 -0500, John Prins wrote: 
>>PLUS, look at the costs involved. Absorption = 5 points/die. Aid = 5 points 
>per >die. I'm paying (currently) AS MUCH as I am for Aid, while getting: 
>> 
>>A.) The same upper limit 
>>B.) No personal control over the increase of my 'aided' power 
>>C.) Increases dependant on the strength of the attack 
>>D.) END free Aid. 
> 
>Oh yeah, I forgot: 
> 
>E.) 1/3th the amount of CPs gained than Aid (in general, you roll 3-4 per 
>die of Aid, but only 1 CP per die of Absorption). 
> 
Okay, I hope this doesn't sound too stupid.  I was always under the 
impression that you rolled the dice, counted the *total* and used that as 
the BODY able to be absorbed... not the *BODY* total on the dice. 
I guess my way gives you even more power, huh? 
Can someone explain it to me, please? 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:48:33 -0500 
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net 
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: What it sees... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> Okay, I've started my adaption of the cast of "Big Trouble in Little 
> China".  I plan on presenting David Lo Pan, Egg Shen, Jack Burton, Wang 
> Chi, the Storms, Lo Pan's two monsters and a generic template for a Chang 
> Sing and a Wing Cong. 
> 
> Now, I have two questions: 
> 
> 1) The Guardian's of power or "what it sees Lo Pan knows".  This would be 
> a simple Mind Link, right?  Or should I go with some strange form of 
> Clairsentience Useable by Others?  And how about the Lo Pan speaks through 
> the Guardian trick? Is this a part of Mind Link, or Images from the 
> Guardian? 
 
I like the idea of giving Lo Pan Clairsentience. Link Images(perhaps indirect?) 
with it for comunications.  As far as Wang attacking it, The guardian seemed 
hurt but Lo Pan was OK. Maybe a limitation on the power that damage dispells 
the effect. 
 
Kev 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:50:53 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Champions  5th Editi 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:22 AM 12/14/97 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>>     Though it cannot be 'spread' in the manner of an Energy  
>>Blast, an HA can be manipulated to improve OCV at the price of  
>>damage.  Each 1d6 of damage sacrificed gives a +1 OCV.  Since an  
>>HA - even when not focused - is assumed to be somewhat separate  
>>from the character using it, it can be used to Block an  
>>opponent's attack. 
> 
>This is where I have the real problem: exactly why are HA's "assumed to be 
>somewhat separate from the character using it"?  The two most common SFX 
>besides weapons (i.e. Focus) that I've seen HA used for in the past are 
>superspeed punches and superdense skin.  Neither is separate from the 
>character in any fashion, and it seems like a far easier approach to buy OCV 
>bonuses with combat levels in addition to HA damage than to box them 
>together and force players to limit them out. 
> 
 
 
I wholeheartedly agreed. . . . . hmm. . i'm very late. . but i  
agree. . *l* 
 
 
>-- 
>Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies 
>+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
>| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good   | 
>| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)                 | 
>+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ 
>   Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
> 
> 
 
From: Arknight 1 <Arknight1@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:54:08 EST 
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart! 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 97-12-15 12:17:25 EST, GoldRushG@aol.com writes: 
 
<<   For a long time, ICE had a deal where you coould trade in your old BBB 
for a 
 Champs softcover. Are there still a lot of folks left who don't have 
 replacements for their old Champs hardcover? >> 
 
 
Yep, I'm one of them!   
 
Tom 
 
From: Arknight 1 <Arknight1@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:54:08 EST 
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart! 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 97-12-15 12:17:25 EST, GoldRushG@aol.com writes: 
 
<<   For a long time, ICE had a deal where you coould trade in your old BBB 
for a 
 Champs softcover. Are there still a lot of folks left who don't have 
 replacements for their old Champs hardcover? >> 
 
 
Yep, I'm one of them!   
 
Tom 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:54:18 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: That's What I Want... 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:00 PM 12/14/97 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
>This is, of course, a more expensive construct (not necessarily bad, as 
>Shapeshifting is darn useful and fairly rare, comic-wise), but it's got lots 
>greater resolution - I'd prefer added resolution than added limitations.  
> 
 
Like i said over density increase, it is far easier to 'adjust' an existing 
power than change it to suit someone's assumptions.  
 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:57:41 +1000 
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: That's What I Want... 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:31 PM 12/14/97 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
>>> should apply across the board vs. all SFX. I want Absorption to be able to 
>>> operate as a defense without resorting to an Armor kludge. I want 
>> 
>>	Why can you not grasp the whole idea of the Hero rules?  We've 
>>explianed it a million times.  Figure out the effect you want and then 
>>take the combined powers that will simulate that.  That's why absorpion 
>>provides no defense.  Sheesh! 
> 
>Because Absorption doesn't _block_ or 'redirect' damage like armor or force 
>fields. It _transforms_ it from damaging 'power' to useful 'power'. It 
>should never have a _chance_ to do damage! 
> 
 
No, not true. For all you know my c's absorbtion could be his god awarding him  
for being injured. . . 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:03:05 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Tokyo Mark wrote: 
>> Oh, yeah, that.  I hadn't ever heard of that before the recent issue I 
>> picked up... she's hunting for Gambit in (I believe) Antarctica and 
>> mentions that it's buzzing like crazy... and that it had been inactive for 
>> a *long* while. 
> 
>Must have an 8- roll;) 
> 
No Conscious Control (-2 Lim)?  And then the GM forgot about it... lol 
 
>>  
>> Does Mjolnir come back every time he throws it?  (Straight EB, OAF)  Or is 
>> it sometimes caught/deflected? 
> 
>It's been deflected but it seems to nearly always return.  In fact, 
>Juggernaut once stopped the hammer short of hitting him, then grabbed the 
>hammer and let it pull him back to Thor, using the veolcity to add to his 
>strength and sending Thor through several trains.  I've always liked 
>Juggy. 
> 
Yeah, I like Caine, too.  I thought the friendship with Black Tom (as 
presented in Spider-Man Team-up #100) was really nice...  Caine went 
through a lot of trouble to find that ruby (whatsisname?) that gave him his 
powers to give to Tom.  I hear they've been doing some funky things with 
both Caine and Tom, tho...  Ah, well. 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:07:17 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th ed art 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:35 AM 12/14/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Captain Spith wrote: 
> 
>>    I really like the Perez cover, but am not opposed to a change.  But 
>> the flavor should definitely be the same.  Superheroes in action, 
>> probably one large 'splash page' scene. 
>>    Or possibly a 5 or 6 panel comic-book page including a splash or 
>> dialog and a splash of action.... 
> 
>On the cover? Ick. Don't think I'd like the look of that much. The splash 
>page thing is definitely the way to go, though. 
> 
> 
 
Hows about this? a few diferent artist doing the same shot in a bunch  
of panels? It'd probably suck for the front cover,  
but how about the back? 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:15:46 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Champions  5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Rook wrote: 
>>  
>> > 1.    Add an advantage called "Advantaged" which would be the exact 
>> > counterpart to "Limited". 
>>  
>> Bad idea IMO. There's no need for it given an adequate set of Powers and 
>> Advantages. 
>> 
>	But a list is never 'complete'. There's always something missing. 
>Such an advatage would make it easier to customize powers, and take such 
>a thing away from being a 'house rule advatage' to a 'tournament legal' 
>concept. 
> 
I still think that any 'tournament' would require a close look at 
home-brewed Advantages *or* Limitations.  They're still house rules, at 
least as far as value goes. 
 
>> > 7.    Steal a few of the advatages from GURPS, like Richocet. 
>>  
>> What would that be used for? 
>> 
>	Allows you to bounce an attack off of a surface. For each time you 
>buy it, you can bounce one more surface. Or so it reads in GURPS. 
 
I thought you could already 'bounce' attacks of an appropriate SFX, 
possibly gaining a 'surprise' OCV bonus...  Doesn't "Beam Attack" disallow 
'bouncing'? 
 
>	Sort of a variation of 'Indirect'. 
 
But if you wanted this to be a variation of 'Indirect,' you could just take 
Indirect with a Limitation on the Advantage...  'Must have places to bounce 
it.' 
 
>	GURPS has about twice as many advantages for powers as Champions does. 
>Don't have a copy in front of me at the moment, but several of them would 
>be nice to add in. 
 
I can't think of many that we don't already have, but I haven't read it in 
awhile, either. 
 
>	Of course having an 'advataged' advantage would make the issue moot. 
> 
Were you the one who said the same about Limited?  That debating Linked was 
'moot,' because you can simply redefine it with the 'Limited' Limitation? 
Doesn't that mean we could save some space in the book by not printing any 
Advantages/Limitations *besides* Advantaged and Limited? 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:19:05 +1000 
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: That's What I Want... 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:12 AM 12/15/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>> 
>> Why do I not 'grasp' that Absorption provides no 'defense', Mr. Gilbert? 
>> Because it DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE, that's why! Sheesh indeed! 
> 
>	First of all.  IT'S GILBERG!  NOT GILBERT!  GILBERG!  YOU HEAR! 
> 
>	Okay, then.  Now that issue's cleared, we can move on. 
> 
>> Because Absorption doesn't _block_ or 'redirect' damage like armor or force 
>> fields. It _transforms_ it from damaging 'power' to useful 'power'. It 
>> should never have a _chance_ to do damage! 
> 
>	That's _one_ interpretation and SFX of the power provided in the 
>HSR.  There very well could be others that do not fit the above.  Why does 
>everything have to work like the one you have? 
> 
 
 
becasue you are trying to ADD stuff, just like adding resistant defences to 
density increase. It is FAR easier to add a defence power than expect people 
to take some wierd-ass limitation even if it's provided right there.  
*knowing this is probably over but can't help pointing out the obvious* 
 
 
 
 
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:19:51 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<x-rich>>><<<< Major Mistake. The powers rules have many applications outside of 
 
>>Super Powers. I think the Hero system rulebook should be the same size as 
 
>>it was in 4th edition.>> 
 
>> 
 
>>  My bad. I think the plan *was* (or, rather, *is*) to have all the character 
 
>>creation rules (including the "powers") in the Hero System Rules book, and 
 
>>treat the Champions book as the campaign book (perhaps with a few extra 
 
>>goodies, and certainly plenty of clear examples!). 
 
>> 
 
>>  Mark @ GRG 
 
>> 
 
> 
 
>yay! *g* Best to focus on interpretations- i.e. how to sue duper-talents,  
 
>good ways to do wierd powers, ect. .  
 
 
 
I ordinarily wouldn't waste bandwidth on a "Me, too", but...Me, too!   
 
 
HERO is -not- Champions.  Please make the distinction, and don't make me pay for what I don't need. 
 
 
Thanks, 
 
 
Scott 
 
 
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
 
The German dragon shall find it hard to escape  
 
to its cavernous lairs, for vengeance for it's  
 
treason will overtake it.  In the end it will become  
 
strong again, just for a short time, but the  
 
decimation of Normandy will be a sorry blow. 
 
	<bold>Geoffrey of Monmouth</bold>, c. 1136 
 
	<italic>The Prophecies of Merlin 
 
</italic>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~	 
 
Scott Nolan 
 
nolan@erols.com 
 
</x-rich> 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:22:00 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: That's What I Want... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Mike Lehmann wrote: 
>As an aside, does anyone else here restrict the SFX of attacks that  
>someone's Damage Reduction/Absorption/etc. can function against (ie  
>fire, cold, punches, etc.) rather than just Energy/Physical damage? 
> 
In general, yes I do.  KnightFire only has Damage Reduction to Fire, 
Crusader has Damage Reduction to Magic, etc. 
I haven't done much at all with Absorption. 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:31:02 +1000 
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From: happyelf <jonesmj%topaz@cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: That's What I Want... 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au (Unverified) 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:01 AM 12/15/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   Rather than try to argue this in terms of logic and real-world physics, 
>I suggest we examine the application of the power in comics and other 
>fiction and determine how it works there.  Then we can determine whether we 
>need (a) kludges for other Powers such as Armor and Knockback Resistance, 
>(b) an Advantage to Absorption (which is what I currently use, at +1/2), or 
>(c) a Limitation to Absorption (when it *doesn't* provide a defense). 
>--- 
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
>   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
>Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
>   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
> 
> 
> 
 
#1 or #2. . stay away fromm #3 at all costs. . .  
 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:38:35 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au (Unverified) 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:23 AM 12/15/97 -0600, bobby farris wrote: 
>	I agree totally and can't wait for this to happen. This is the way it 
>should always have been. Hero system is a great "Generic" game system, 
>but because it has always been combined with Champions and because of a 
>lack (relatively) of World books it has been overlooked and other game 
>systems (like say Gurps, which I like) have taken it's place. 
> 
 
I think genre books should focus on genre- i.e. really good background,  
lots of advise, in fact minimise the rules stuff so that the focus  
can be used by *any* game. .  
 
 
 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:42:14 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au (Unverified) 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:31 AM 12/15/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>>    - Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb.  My own 
>> structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for lesser utility 
>> (3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single tentacle 
>> or prehensile tail). 
> 
>That was one of the silliest parts of the previous edition of Champions; I 
>certainly have no desire to see it return. Building the 100-armed giants 
>of Greek mythology should _not_ mandate a Power on the order of 1000 
>points. 
> 
 
 
I agree. There's no reason multiple limmbs will help any more than a few 
in most situations.  
 
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:44:20 -0800 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition thoughts 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>CHANGE ENVIRONMENT: Should stay with the present structure and cost, but 
>>lose the area, if you want an area, buy area effect on it.  Increasing the 
>>area is by the Area Effect rules thereafter, negating the 5 pt cost per 
>>doubling. 
>> 
>>DARKNESS: loses the automatic area like CE, and increased area is bought by 
>>the area effect. 
> 
>   So what's the point/utility of non-AE CE and Darkness? 
 
Well you can target a single person with it, like a continuous blast, so 
instead of it being cold everywhere, its just on that one guy, or dark on 
that one guy. 
 
This construct makes the powers expensive enough, but more consistent with 
the rest of the rules, I think. 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Lesson in humility (and irony) 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:47:48 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sunday, December 14, 1997 6:57 AM, Curtis Gibson wrote: 
 
 
>A bit a background then the situation. 
<snip> 
> 
>Now, you tell me, is it fair to use a that thing  I built (a little, 
no 
>a lot munchkin) back on us. 8) 
 
 
No. Of course not. That was horribly unfair. I'd _never_ do that to my 
players. 
 
Heh, heh, heh, heh, heh, heh. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:56:26 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au (Unverified) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:38 PM 12/15/97 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
>>I can think of things which reduce costs that should be Minor (blinding, 
>>for example). Also, the rule about "no point increases" desperately needs 
>>to be reinstated. 
> 
>Well, that's hard to say. After all, if Mysterium the Mage and friends are 
>falling off a cliff, and Mysterium wants to do a Transform to give everyone 
>wings, well, he can't, because of the rule you mention. He can't turn those 
>25 point peasants into tigers (233 points according to the HERO Bestiary). 
>And so on. Perhaps the introduction of some sort of 'system shock' with 
>respect to Transforms on living organisms would limit the abuse. I dunno. 
> 
 
I'd call that a summon teamed with a 'banishment' power- dimensional travel  
vs others? 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Ed Cover 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:57:00 -0800 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sunday, December 14, 1997 3:35 PM, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
><< I'd realy like to see the next panel, though:  Seeker burried 
under the 
>wall Doc D just squished him with, and the broken Katana stiking 
out.... >> 
> 
>  I know you were joking (at least I hope so), but I don't know if 
we'll be 
>featuring any of the CU characters on the cover. Just FYI. 
 
On the original Champions Autoduel by Steve Jackson games, the cover 
showed a superhero holding a car over his head. A man in the car 
leaned out the window, bouncing bullets off his chest. Behind the 
hero, another car was racing towards his back. 
 
Inside the book was a picture of a car, a superhero lying on his back 
on the hood, and another car upside down on top of him, and three 
thought bubbles- "I shouldn't have done that...." 
 
I always liked that picture.<BEG> 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Special Offers to the list 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:58:45 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sunday, December 14, 1997 3:41 PM, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
 
>  Would the list lurkers here be in favor of occasional special 
offers on Hero 
>products if we were to do that? Something akin to "No shipping on 
orders" or a 
>slight discount? We're considering starting seasonal or 
holiday-themed sales 
>and I wanted to get feedback from folks here on the idea. 
 
 
Thank you very much for actually _asking_. Since you did ask, I'd say 
yes, otherwise.... 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:01:35 -0800 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sunday, December 14, 1997 3:46 PM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
 
> 
>>   Why? Can't a PC spread his EB, or use *up to* his max dice in the 
blast? Why 
>> not let him use *less*? Say, a 1/2 die or 1 Pip Energy Blast, 
effectively 
>> making it a 0 END "show of force?" 
> 
> 
> There's a minimal END cost involved with anything, usually placed 
>at the minimum cost of the power level but almost always 1 END.  More 
if 
>increased END is on the power, however.  This is from the same idea 
that 
>even a non-STR-using Physical Action still uses 1 pt of END. 
 
Agreed. One pt of END, or nothing. 
 
> And as for powers with charges -- you blew a charge, plain and 
>simple, by using the power.  You're down one charge and there ain't 
no way 
>I'm letting an argument get that back. 
 
Indeed. "You just ran out of bullets in your six-shooter." "No, that 
first shot was a show of force." 
 
THWAP! (Sound of BBB (softcover) hitting player's head.) 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:13:54 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: That's What I Want... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>E.) 1/3th the amount of CPs gained than Aid (in general, you roll 3-4 per 
>>die of Aid, but only 1 CP per die of Absorption). 
>> 
>Okay, I hope this doesn't sound too stupid.  I was always under the 
>impression that you rolled the dice, counted the *total* and used that as 
>the BODY able to be absorbed... not the *BODY* total on the dice. 
>I guess my way gives you even more power, huh? 
>Can someone explain it to me, please? 
 
Crap, you're right. Silly me, going off confusing the Entangle/Flash method 
of accounting with Absorption. What I should have said was "low likelyhood 
of actually getting the full use out your Absorption total (unless it's 
small), because in order for that to happen you'd have to take several hits 
over the course of your phase." Especially with the 'no defense' method, 
where getting hit multiple times is bad, very bad. 
 
Something tells me that, on average, it's a lot better to buy 4D6 Absorption 
and screeds of +Capacity than 8D6 Absorption, unless you can soak a _lot_ of 
fire over a short period. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:14:02 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>> Well, that's hard to say. After all, if Mysterium the Mage and friends are 
>> falling off a cliff, and Mysterium wants to do a Transform to give everyone 
>> wings, well, he can't, because of the rule you mention. 
> 
>He can do an Aid Flight, though. 
 
Not if they don't have the flight power already. He _could_ do Flight, UBO, 
but what if all he's got is Transform? Splat? 
 
>> He can't turn those 25 point peasants into tigers (233 points according to 
>> the HERO Bestiary). 
> 
>This, too, can be done with Transform linked to Aid, 
 
Ack! And this gets how expensive? Not only a Transform, but a +4D6 Aid to 
all Tiger Powers(+2)? If I've blown the 90 points for that 6D6 Major 
Transform 'People to Tigers', I don't think it's fair that I have to spend 
yet more! All the power needs is a 'clause' that says "while Transforming a 
target into something more powerful is possible, GM permission is required 
in every such case." I'd say turning an 'ordinary' human into an 'ordinary' 
tiger isn't abusive - though turning an 'ordinary' person into a 
'superhuman' obviously falls into the realm of game mechanic/villians only 
(Like Ba Kien, from Ninja HERO). 
 
>or just "Summon 
>Tigers, requires peasants nearby(-1/2)" if you consider the peasants to be 
>effectively just scenery. 
 
But they aren't, they could be DNPCs. Of course, it's a good idea to have 
your Tiger Summoning power with this limitation, as it takes care of the 
'Summoning a hungry tiger' problem ^_^ Nice kitty! Have some peasants! 
 
>> Me neither. Though I _would_ like to see an official modifier, 'Costs END to 
>> Activate, but not Maintain', though I'm not sure what it's worth. Probably a 
>> +1/4). 
> 
>Assuming the current costs for Costs END/0 END stay the same, it would 
>pretty much have to be +1/4 for Powers that normally cost END, -1/4 for 
>Powers which normally don't. I've been using this for a while. 
 
Good, but I'd like to see it officialized, as it's a relevant mechanic, IMHO. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Special Offers to the list 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:23:40 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sunday, December 14, 1997 6:10 PM, John Desmarais wrote: 
 
 
>On Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:04:48 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
> 
>>  Would the list lurkers here be in favor of occasional special 
offers on Hero 
>>products if we were to do that? 
<snip> 
> 
>I don't think I have ever once objected to a discount on something I 
was considering 
>buying anyway. 
 
I have. I object when it is emailed to me, without my saying I wanted 
it, _even if I want it_. 
 
I believe he is attempting to avoid undesired spamming. I definitely 
think he should be commended for this. That is why I said I didn't 
object. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:24:27 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:19 PM 12/15/97 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote: 
>>><< Major Mistake. The powers rules have many applications outside of 
>>>Super Powers. I think the Hero system rulebook should be the same size as 
>>>it was in 4th edition.>> 
>>> 
>>>  My bad. I think the plan *was* (or, rather, *is*) to have all the character 
>>>creation rules (including the "powers") in the Hero System Rules book, and 
>>>treat the Champions book as the campaign book (perhaps with a few extra 
>>>goodies, and certainly plenty of clear examples!). 
>>> 
>>>  Mark @ GRG 
>>> 
>> 
>>yay! *g* Best to focus on interpretations- i.e. how to sue duper-talents,  
>>good ways to do wierd powers, ect. .  
> 
> 
>I ordinarily wouldn't waste bandwidth on a "Me, too", but...Me, too!   
> 
>HERO is -not- Champions.  Please make the distinction, and don't make me pay for what I don't need. 
> 
>Thanks, 
> 
>Scott 
> 
> 
 
NOT! so you don't have guns? or magic? or ANYTHING? above i was talking about the  
GENRE-BOOK, but i believe that was kinda obvious. . . 
 
 
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
>The German dragon shall find it hard to escape  
>to its cavernous lairs, for vengeance for it's  
>treason will overtake it.  In the end it will become  
>strong again, just for a short time, but the  
>decimation of Normandy will be a sorry blow. 
>	Geoffrey of Monmouth, c. 1136 
>	The Prophecies of Merlin 
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~	 
>Scott Nolan 
>nolan@erols.com 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:39:44 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Guy Hoyle wrote: 
 
> >>If there are any extensive changes at all, I wouldn't mind seeing 
> >>something like (but not exactly like) the "Incomplete Character" 
> >rules. 
> > 
> >Yes. I would definitely like to see something like that. 
> > 
> >Some people hate the Spirit rules, I rather like them. I would like to 
> >see them expanded upon, possibly as part of the "Incomplete Character" 
> >rules, and cleaned up a bit. 
>  
> I agree. The spirit rules made it possible for RuneQuest-like spirits, 
> which are extremely difficult to do with Desolid, Mind Control, etc., and 
> to retain the same feel. 
>  
>  
Not to mention such comics characters as the Swamp Thing, the Construct, 
Kilg%re, Deadman, etc. 
 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:50:08 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: TUSV 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Brian Wong (Rook) wrote: 
>> take what I post as gospel even if you'd take TUSV itself as such. 
> 
>	Am I the only one who keeps wanting to read that as 
>"The Ultimate Super Villian"? 
>	Which in itself may make for a justifiable book. 
> 
I did read it that way for a while, but...   Anyway, the D&D version of 
that didn't impress me.  It gave general guidelines on motives and such for 
baddies...  <shrugs> 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:56:29 -0800 
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com> 
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> While obliterating the stun lottery has a certain appeal, I don't think that 
> making a 12 DC killing attack average 42 body would be a particularly good 
> idea.... 
> The ratio between 'ability to do stun' and 'ability to kill things' in HERO is 
> a bit low (fear my pistol; I cannot possibly kill you with it, but I can sure 
> knock you unconscious!), but I think Fuzion took it a bit too far in the other 
> direction. 
 
The ratio for stun damage to body damage in HERO is exactly where you 
set it (for killing anyway). The standard defence paradigm is 2.5 points 
of defence per DC, this lets one point of stun per DC past defences 
(about, these numbers all fall prey to very complex math). The amount of 
body done to a character is a function of how much of that DEF you let 
be resistant, obviously if you let all of it be resistant then the 
players will never take any body, if you set a limit of 1 point 
resistant per DC then players will take 2 body from an average killing 
attack. If you set it at .5 resistant per DC and you'll have players 
dying while still conscious. You're the GM Set the limits where you want 
them. 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org> 
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> 
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:59:44 +0000 
Subject: Needed: Mentalist Inspiration 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I was hoping the folks on this list could help with a character design. I've  
been invited to join an ongoing Champions game, and the other player want me to  
create a mentalist to help round out their party. Now, I've been playing and  
GMing in the Hero System for years, but I've never much liked mentalists. So, I  
want some unconventional suggestions for mentalism powers to give me some  
inspiration. The concepts I've come up with so far (I do concepts first, build  
system after) are: 
 
 
Mental Invisibility. 
	She projects an aura that affects peoples minds and convinces them that she  
isn't there. It would be probably be bought as some form of Images  
(Static Image of empty space) aftecting all but mental senses (mentalists can  
'see' what she's doing) Probably has some sort of limitation like 'Points of  
Mental Def counter negative perception modifiers' or something like that. She  
would likely have extra levels of DCV linked to the Mental Invisibility.  She  
might even have a multipower in which she can tune her aura to project  
other affects, like heightened beauty or impressiveness or even some sort of  
'Boy am I scarey' field. 
 
Induced Psychometry 
	She can project her illusion field onto objects and they will retain their  
illusion for a time. Ideally this would be some sort of ablative perception  
modifier. Every time someone looks at the object, one -1 of the perception  
modifiers would go away, until it finally faded away altogether. Of course,  
Mental Def would make someone immune to the effect. 
 
Mental Transform 
	I am assuming that a Transform vs Mental Def is a +0 (since AVLD doesn't  
distinguish between them.) Anyway, she would have a (minor?) transform to  
modify someone's memories (possibly requiring a sufficient read-minds roll).  
Ideally the effect would require rolling double the victims EGO rather than  
BODY, but that isn't essential. 
 
Skill Drain 
	This might also have to be bought as a transform, but I am thinking of a  
mental power that interferes with and makes someone forget how to use a  
particular skill/maneuver for a time. 
 
So there you are. Are there any other good mind-affecting powers that she  
should have? The party already has a telekinetic, so I'm shying away from that. 
 
Stirling 
 
PS: What does LOL stand for anyway? 
--  
 Stirling Westrup  |  Use of the Internet by this poster 
 sti@cam.org       |  is not to be construed as a tacit 
                   |  endorsement of Western Technological 
                   |  Civilization or its appurtenances. 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:05:10 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Rook (Brian Wong) wrote: 
>> > Does Mjolnir come back every time he throws it?  (Straight EB, OAF) 
Or is 
>> > it sometimes caught/deflected? 
>> 
>	If it always returns, does it deserve a focus limitation? 
> 
Well...  (NO, NOT AGAIN!!!)  It would depend on whether you could take it 
away from him Hand-to-hand.  I'm not making a call on that here (phew, 
dodged that one), but it *could* still get the Focus Lim.  I mean, can you 
catch a bullet, and thereby disarm someone w/ a gun?  Being able to be 
caught would have to have a different, additional mechanic, or just be in 
the realm of SFX (possibly for Missle Deflection, as mentioned in Ninja Hero). 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:11:53 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-- 	Being able to stand them up in those plastic stands is a good  
start.  It gives them (hopefully) just enough weight and stability to  
ignore the effects of errant wind gusts. 
 
	Include some for all genre.  Some of those sword swinging  
maniacs, mages, thieves and other "basics".  If you intead to release  
(redo?) the beastery, include examples of them to scale.  Even include  
them with the basic package.  Large numbers of people like to play non  
humans every now and then. 
 
	As to cost, there is the rub.  You mentioned a cost of $40 for a  
new book and an extra $2-3 for the cutouts.  I would assume that was  
Americian.  With the way the Australian dollar is trading at the moment,  
adding in shipping costs brings it up to some where in the order of  
$80-90 in the stores.  While I would like to see a new edition come out,  
at that price, a soft cover book would have to be REALLY good to get  
people to but it. 
 
	Any chance of doing a mail order from over there? 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:18:52 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
  
>    But you *can't* apply the Limitation to the larger Power; that is quite 
> explicitly stated. 
 
	I would suggest that that particlur rule was placed to stop people  
saying "I have a 3d6 flash.  I will link my 12d6 energy blast to it.  -1/2 on  
the energy blast, thanks" 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:25:25 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Slipperiness 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Kevin J. McClain wrote: 
>  
> Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>  
> > Really, though, I think slipperiness needs to be a power. Creating a new 
> > power probably isn't within the scope of TUSV, so whatever you use will 
> > necessarily be a bit of a kludge. 
>  
>   I may have missed the answer to this question, but what is wrong with Change 
> Environment? As it was described in Hero System Almanac 2( pages 28-30), CE 
> imposes sight modifiers and combat modifiers. You could add movement reduction 
> by saying every 20 points of CE reduces ground movement 2" and halves 
> acceleration. 
>  
 
The HSA2 version of CE does two basic things: 
 
1) It defines long-term effects of specific environments. This isn't 
really a change to CE so much as a standardization, as any reasonable GM 
would figure that *something* would happen to a character standing in a 
snowstorm for six hours. This much of the power, which was probably 
modeled on an earlier Adventurers Club article about weather, I liked. 
 
2) It defines immediate affects, at newly defined costs, for certain 
drastic environments. Some of these affects seemed like unseemly overlaps 
with other powers; for example, you don't need to give CE an option to do 
NND attacks for pressure changes, you can simply build NND attacks to use 
in conjunction with CE. The biggest failing with these rules, though, is 
that they're limited to just a few special effects. The strength of the 
Hero System is in letting you create just about any effect, defining the 
SFX as you please. 
 
To be truthful, Slipperiness is the only effect that I've badly missed in 
the system, but the first time I brought it up on the list, I was 
convinced that there are some other things that are tough to simulate too, 
and that all would fit nicely into a revised CE. A mist that somewhat (but 
not completely) impairs sight, for example; it's easy to do by GM fiat, 
but what if a character wants the ability to create it? Or how about 
gravity alteration powers, which change how you fall and how you move? 
 
> Besides, coming up with a separate new power would necessatate coming up with a 
> separate new defense. 
>  
 
Not at all. There's no special defense against CE as it stands, and there 
need be none with an expanded version. Whatever adverse effects the 
environment has can be countered either by a high enough stat that 
penalties to it won't matter, or by removing oneself from the effects of 
the environment (for example, by desolidication.) 
 
At the risk of boring people who've already seen it, I'll repeat the 
version of CE I worked up (with Bob, Geoff, and others). I reposted it a 
couple of weeks ago, and nobody responded so I dropped the subject; but it 
seems relevent to this discussion. Please keep in mind that it's not as 
complicated as it may look; a chart with a nice layout would break down 
the effects almost as simply as the aspects of Life Support. It just 
doesn't  look very nice as a text file. 
 
Change Environment   
 
A character with this Standard Power can alter or add to the general 
conditions in an area. The character could, for instance, create light in 
a certain area, change the temperature, or cover the ground with ice. The 
character can change the environment in one hex for 5 Character Points;  
this radius can be doubled for +5 points. To use Change Environment counts 
as a Constant attack, and the Power can be used at range. At the base 
level, Change Environment does not have any direct effect on combat, 
though with the GM's permission it may have combat effects under 
particular circumstances or do measurable damage over long periods. 
 
If the player wants definite game effects from the power, the cost is 
increased by the following:  
 
+1 point (cumulative) 
+/- 1" Terminal Velocity (minimum 0") 
+/- 1" to Turn Mode` 
+/- 1 to one sense PER Roll for a particular purpose 
or under certain circumstances  (e.g. Sight Roll to identify someone)  
 
2 points (cumulative)  
+/- 1 to one sense PER roll 
+/- 1 to PER rolls for a Sense Group for one purpose or under certain` 
circumstances  
+/- 1 to one Characteristic Roll for a particular purpose (e.g. DEX Roll 
while using hands)					 
+/- 1 to a particular Skill Roll  
 
+3 Points (cumulative) 
+/- 1 to one Characteristic Roll and any Skill Rolls based on that 
Characteristic` 
+/- 1 to PER roll for one Sense Group 
+/- 1 Ranged OCV 
+/- 1" Falling Acceleration  (minimum 0") 
 
+4 Points (cumulative) 
+/- 1" to one Movement Power  (including Leaping and Being Thrown, 
separately) 
+/- 1" Knockback 
 
+5 Points (cumulative) 
+/- 1 OCV		 
+/- 1 DCV 
 
10 points (cumulative) 
 
+/- 1 Encumbrance level (only for campaigns using Encumbrance rules) 
 
10 points (noncumulative) 
 
+/- 1d6 to KB Roll 
Movement with no turn mode normally gets a turn mode.  
 
15 points (noncumulative)` 
 
x1/2 OCV  
x1/2 DCV   
0 Ranged OCV  Fall (as O STR Martial Throw: target may take v/5 damage)  
 
30 points  (noncumulative) 
0 OCV 
0 DCV 
 
Other effects of the power may be assigned a cost by comparison with the 
above list. Under no circumstances should Change Environment directly 
inflict  damage or duplicate the effects of another Power. GM's should 
watch for abuses of this power, and pay particular attention to its 
effects on OCV and  DCV;  Change Environment's modification should be 
taken into account when applying campaign CV limits to the character.  
 
A character must specify the effects of Change Environment when purchasing 
the Power. To be able to vary the effects of Change Environment is a +1 
Power Advantage.  This Advantage may even allow the player to reconfigure 
the combat  effects of the Power to any of a set of configurations defined 
when the power is  purchased; each such configuration (and the total 
number allowed) requires  GM approval. These varied effects must still fit 
into a tight group of special effects - the character cannot use the Power 
to create any environment. 
 
Examples: 
 
8" Radius Ice Field (5+): x1/2 DCV, DEX Roll Reduces Penalty to -1 DCV 
(-1/2)  
(10),  -1d6 to KB Roll (10), Fall, DEX Roll to Avoid (-1/2) (10),  x8 
Radius (15). Total Cost = 50 
 
16" Radius Mist (5+): -2 to Sight Rolls to Identify Someone (2), -2 to 
Sight PER Rolls (4), x16 Radius (20). Total Cost = 31 
 
Change Environment Cost: 5 point base, x2 Radius for +5 points. See Table  
 for additional effects. Minimum cost 10 points. A character can vary the 
environment to other set configurations for a +1 advantage. Maximum Range 
is points x5 inches. Change Environment is a constant power. 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:25:32 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:58 AM 12/15/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Brian Wong wrote: 
>> > >   Often times what I let my players do is give me "comparisons" I 
can relate 
>> > > to. Things like "I do a double back-flip like Jackie Chan did in 
that one 
>> > > scene in Armor of God VII" and I say "Okay. Make your roll."  ;) 
>> >  
>> > No way man, Jackie vs Bennie in "Dragons Forever"! 
>> >  
>> 	Naw, the scene in City Hunter where he gets slammed into a video 
>> game machine and comes out as the girl in Street Fighter II (but the actor 
>> still being Jackie), then the other guy turns into Ken and starts shooting 
>> blasts at him. 
> 
>Jackie Chan as Chun Li, Richard Norton as Ken.  Alonng the way, Jackie, 
>Richard and some extras show up as everyone else too... complete with 
>fireballs and sonic booms. 
> 
Yeah, he was E Honda at one point, right?  (the sumo guy...) 
 
>> 	But I don't know if that one's been brought over into english yet. I 
>> saw it in Chinese while living in asia. 
> 
>Saw a dubbed copy a long time ago. 
> 
Yeah, but just this one scene.  I think it was also used on an episode of 
"The Incredibly Strange Film Show" (or something like that). 
 
>Okay, for acrobatics in a fight: Jackie Chan vs Ken Lo in Drunken Master 
>II! 
> 
Say, how would one do drunken fighting, anyway?  I know there's a section 
on it in Ninja Hero, under Kung Fu, and they list -2 OCV/DCV later in NH, 
but... 
Drunken Fighters get *better* when they are drunk, right?  So, CSL, only 
when drunk? 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:26:04 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Atmospheric FTL 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-- Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
> Yes, this is a problem. Allowing an Advantage on Teleport to allow blind 
> teleporting is possibly a good idea. 
 
	Anybody with teleport can already blind teleport.  You pick a direction  
and a distance.  The GM looks at his map or whatever and decides if anything is  
already there.  If the place is empty, BAMF, your there.  If something is  
already there, you go to the nearest empty space and fall over. (Maybe)  There  
is a very nice table on page 144 in the BBB for just such a case. 
 
 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:31:14 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Slipperiness 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I think one thing you may have missed would be some sort of  
reduction in movement and accelleration.  Little or nor traction would  
mean the tires/feet/etc woudl be moving like hell but not getting very  
far. 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:34:07 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<x-rich>At 11:24 AM 12/16/97 +1000, happyelf wrote: 
 
>At 07:19 PM 12/15/97 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote: 
 
>>>><<<< Major Mistake. The powers rules have many applications outside of 
 
>>>>Super Powers. I think the Hero system rulebook should be the same size as 
 
>>>>it was in 4th edition.>> 
 
>>>> 
 
>>>>  My bad. I think the plan *was* (or, rather, *is*) to have all the character 
 
>>>>creation rules (including the "powers") in the Hero System Rules book, and 
 
>>>>treat the Champions book as the campaign book (perhaps with a few extra 
 
>>>>goodies, and certainly plenty of clear examples!). 
 
>>>> 
 
>>>>  Mark @ GRG 
 
>>>> 
 
>>> 
 
>>>yay! *g* Best to focus on interpretations- i.e. how to sue duper-talents,  
 
>>>good ways to do wierd powers, ect. .  
 
>> 
 
>> 
 
>>I ordinarily wouldn't waste bandwidth on a "Me, too", but...Me, too!   
 
>> 
 
>>HERO is -not- Champions.  Please make the distinction, and don't make me pay for what I don't need. 
 
>> 
 
>>Thanks, 
 
>> 
 
>>Scott 
 
> 
 
>NOT! so you don't have guns? or magic? or ANYTHING? above i was talking about the  
 
>GENRE-BOOK, but i believe that was kinda obvious. . . 
 
 
Well, I thought you were being clear before, but now I've kinda lost you.  So let me restate what I think we are talking about:  Put -ALL- the powers and rules and mechanics in -ONE- book and call that the Hero System Rules.  Put all -GENRE- related material (whether superheroes, space opera, fantasy, whatever) in separate books.  -NOT- books with genre-specific rules or powers, just books with examples of how to use the core rules to create genre-specific effects. 
 
 
Scott 
 
 
 
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
 
The German dragon shall find it hard to escape  
 
to its cavernous lairs, for vengeance for it's  
 
treason will overtake it.  In the end it will become  
 
strong again, just for a short time, but the  
 
decimation of Normandy will be a sorry blow. 
 
	<bold>Geoffrey of Monmouth</bold>, c. 1136 
 
	<italic>The Prophecies of Merlin 
 
</italic>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~	 
 
Scott Nolan 
 
nolan@erols.com 
 
</x-rich> 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:37:34 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
>   I'm afraid I cannot address any more comments regarding a 5th Edition. It 
> seems I misspoke earlier. I welcome your comments about what you'd like to see 
> in future Hero System products from Gold Rush Games, however. 
>  
So far it doesn't look like anybody's noticed this message in  all the 
excitement. 
 
As I learned from a disastrous engagement, things that seem too good to be 
true usually are. Oh, well, I'm sure you're feeling like you put your foot 
in your mouth, Mark. Don't worry too much about it - I'm sure most here 
will understand that it was an unintended error, and besides, all it takes 
is anybody using the term "5th Edition" to get this list ranting about it 
for weeks.  Please keep in mind that there is an enthusiastic market for 
this product out there, should it ever be within your power to publish it. 
 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:39:47 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-- Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
> At 08:12 PM 12/13/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
> >>>>>> "AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes: 
> > 
> >AJ> Actually, it does; its just that the target of an aid ordinarily 
> >AJ> _wants_ to be hit, and thus pending extreme circumstances the attack 
> >AJ> roll can be assumed to be successful. 
> > 
> >An attack roll is part of the process of making an attack.  If you do not 
> >roll it, you have not made an attack. 
>  
>    Hold on a sec... what about breaking out of an Entangle?  I was being 
> mostly facetious before about the sky having a DCV, but a character using 
> STR or an attack Power (if you should pardon the expression) to break out 
> of an Entangle is a case of an attack that doesn't require an Attack Roll. 
>    I'd have to search for it, but I think attacking someone who is 
> completely immobile at point-blank range also can be done without an Attack 
> Roll. 
 
	And if you break the entangle with double the required body, you get a  
full phase.  Quote, p68 BBB "If an ATTACK [my capitols] against an entangle  
does twice the remaining body of the entangle or more, then the attacker may  
take his full action (ie. it takes no time to break out of the entangle).  If  
an attack against an entangle does the remaining body or more, then the  
attacker may take a half action." End quote. 
 
	An attack was made against the entangle.  If it breaks the entangle,  
you get either a half or full phase.  Which can be used to make an attack.  
(Duck!!) 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:41:48 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
	Might as well throw in my .02 on Bob's suggestions. 
 
>    - Interrogation should not *necessarily* be violent.  In my campaign, an 
> attorney can use Interrogation to prompt a witness that she doesn't think 
> is telling the truth ("Need I remind you of the penalties for perjury?" and 
> such).  Either that, or there should be a different Skill for this. 
>    - Similarly seduction should not *necessarily* be sexual.  A person can 
> be "seduced" by wealth, fame, and power.  (Arguably, of course, this could 
> be represented with Bribery, though it seems to my mind closer to 
> Seduction, semantically speaking.) 
 
	I use both of these this way already, but agree the wording could 
be changed a little to more easily allow for these interpretations. 
 
 
>    - Darkness, Images, and other Powers whose base forms affect a single 
> sense but which can affect entire Sense Groups should be allowed to take +5 
> points to affect a Sense Group without affecting only a single Sense. 
 
	Just the standard thing going. 
 
>    - Energy Blast should not be allowed to be STUN Only for no bonus. 
> Sure, the character doesn't have to worry about collateral damage that way, 
> but this is relatively minor compared to the utility that's lost without 
> the ability to do BODY damage (most specifically as affecting Entangles, 
> robots, vehicles, and other inanimate objects). 
 
	We've been over this in debate, but I think most of it comes down 
to effect and feel.  Stun-only is of no importance.  Almost all major 
damage donw is in STUN, and the only thing that matters in Hero is KOing 
someone.  The BOD damage is negligible.  Even more so because most that 
have this will also have some other attack that _does_ do body to affect 
the random wall, tree, or car. 
 
	Of course, this assumes that it still does KB even though it does 
no BOD.  If no KB is included with no STUN (something I don't like as it 
removes certain applications of the power) then it is worth -1/2, exactly 
the same as "does no KB." 
 
 
>    - Enhanced Senses should include a Touch Sense Group. 
 
	Yes.  I assume one as it is.  Though even invis to touch won't 
mean no STUN, etc.  An attack with IPE to Touch will be very hard to 
figure out, however.  You're hurt, you know you're hurt, you're just not 
sure how you're hurt. 
 
 
>    - Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb.  My own 
> structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for lesser utility 
> (3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single tentacle 
> or prehensile tail). 
 
	Ug.  No need.  There is really no major effect for many limbs. 
Most effects people want from lots of lims should be simmed with CSLs and 
powers. 
 
 
>    - Flash, as mentioned elsewhere, should be 5 points per die, with each 
> BODY pip of Flash working for 1 segment.  (It makes Flash Defense more 
> balanced.) 
 
	Something should be done.  As it is, Flash Defense is way too 
cheap.  2 pts for the minimum 5 with an OAF. 
 
>    - Force Field and Force Wall should have Flash Defense, Mental Defense, 
> and Power Defense methods built right in. 
 
	Sure.  See USM for examples, but basically put that right into the 
core rules. 
 
 
>    - Hand-to-Hand Attack should *not* be omitted; this would leave us with 
> the old kludge of "+X STR, Only for Damage."  Use Opal's version instead. 
 
	Look at the version in Hero's Digital Hero instead.  I expect this 
is what we'll be seeing in any new version.  Oh, and note the KA option as 
well; I'd expect KA to just be an advantage on normal attacks. 
 
 
>    - Instant Change should be scaled.  (My scale is 5 pts = instant, 4 pts 
> = half Phase, 3 pts = Phase, 2 pts = Turn, 1 pt = minute, normal = 5 
> minutes, with all costs doubled for "any clothing.") 
 
	How long does it take to change in the first place?  And this 
could be simulated with the "Extra Time" lim. 
 
>    - Life Support should have some of its elements able to be broken down 
> even further, like 2 points for being immune to *either* heat *or* cold. 
> Also, 1-2 points for retarded aging is a cool idea. 
 
	Like I pointed out, work in something like Weapon Familiarities. 
Also, add a LS: Does not die for something like 10 pts.  A somewhat major 
ability with almost no combat importance.  This is not something that 
should cost 20, 30, 40, or more points, as some of the list's writeups 
have done. 
 
 
>    - Shrinking should include a "proportional STR" Limitation, say -1/4. 
 
	Um.  I'd make it worth more.  Also, include a density decrease 
only limitation on shrinking to round out the Growth and Mass powers. 
 
>    - Swinging should be specifically described as movement per Phase, not 
> movement per swing. 
 
	Never noticed, but that does lead to possible abuse, doesn't it? 
 
>    - Armor Piercing should be purchasable so that it can do more than just 
> halve the target's defenses.  However, I do see why this was stopped in 4th 
> ed.  I'd recommend charging an extra +1/4 for each level higher that the 
> Armor Piercing can go (+1 1/4 to quarter defenses, +2 1/4 to reduce to 
> one-eighth, etc.). 
 
	Nope.  This is too easily abusable.  Keep it as it is in 4th ed. 
 
>    - Explosion should be +3/4 so it doesn't cost the same as AE: One Hex. 
> (The old method of making AE: One Hex cost +1/4 wouldn't work, because then 
> it would hit the proverbial floor if it's Nonselective.)  The Selective 
> Target and Nonselective Target options for AE should also be available. 
 
	We also need a way to increase the increased radius for expl at a 
faster rate.  As it is, a AE is quickly more effective. 
 
>    - Damage Shield should be clarified so that *any* significant contact, 
> including the character with DS making an attack against the target, will 
> cause damage. 
 
	Too unbalancing.  Just take an EB with the new "HA" build on it. 
 
>    - Reduced END should be half END for +1/4, 1 END for +1/2, 0 END for 
> +3/4, and Persistent for +1. 
 
	Too messy.  Just keep it as it is.  Oh, and allow for non-0 END 
persistent powers. 
 
>    - Charges should be worth an extra +1/2 if the Power to which it's 
> applied normally doesn't cost END (or +1 if the Charges cost END). 
 
	Nope.  Just an advantage that is lost.  Though I could live with a 
change here.  It wouldn't be too unbalancing. 
 
>    - Public Identity should be replaced with Social Limitation, of which 
> Public Identity can be one.  Use scales similar to those used for Physical 
> and Psychological Limitations. 
 
	Yes. 
 
>    - Reputation should have modifiers for limited group -- say, -5 for a 
> small group, +0 for a large group, +5 for the public at large. 
 
	See . . . UMA maybe?  Or was it Dark Champions. 
 
>    - Secret Identity should become simply Secret, with scales similar to 
> those used for Physical and Psychological Limitations. 
 
	Good. 
 
>    - Susceptibility should have a variation for Allergy (using a similar 
> structure for the Addiction variation on Dependence).  Also, the number 
> dice should go on forever. 
 
	Also good. 
 
 
	Lots of good suggestions, some clunkers.  Keep trying. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:44:02 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: That's What I Want... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
	<comments arguing against absorption as a defense cut> 
 
	Mr. Barrie, I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to stay after 
class.  That post was a complete restatement of my earlier post, and I 
didn't see any crediting.  You know Miskatonic University's penalty for 
plagerism. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:46:03 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> > And as for powers with charges -- you blew a charge, plain and 
> >simple, by using the power.  You're down one charge and there ain't 
> no way 
> >I'm letting an argument get that back. 
> 
> Indeed. "You just ran out of bullets in your six-shooter." "No, that 
> first shot was a show of force." 
> 
> THWAP! (Sound of BBB (softcover) hitting player's head.) 
 
 
	I'd prefer a large handful of dice, myself . . . 
 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:48:04 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com> 
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<x-rich>>>   I'm afraid I cannot address any more comments regarding a 5th Edition. It 
 
>> seems I misspoke earlier. I welcome your comments about what you'd like to see 
 
>> in future Hero System products from Gold Rush Games, however. 
 
>>  
 
>So far it doesn't look like anybody's noticed this message in  all the 
 
>excitement. 
 
 
Oh, we noticed.  We just like to argue anyway... 
 
 
Seriously, the fact that there won't be one (they say...) doesn't mean that we shouldn't talk about how the current game could be better.  
 
 
 
>As I learned from a disastrous engagement, things that seem too good to be 
 
>true usually are. Oh, well, I'm sure you're feeling like you put your foot 
 
>in your mouth, Mark. Don't worry too much about it - I'm sure most here 
 
>will understand that it was an unintended error, and besides, all it takes 
 
>is anybody using the term "5th Edition" to get this list ranting about it 
 
>for weeks.  Please keep in mind that there is an enthusiastic market for 
 
>this product out there, should it ever be within your power to publish it. 
 
 
Right. 
 
 
Scott 
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
 
The German dragon shall find it hard to escape  
 
to its cavernous lairs, for vengeance for it's  
 
treason will overtake it.  In the end it will become  
 
strong again, just for a short time, but the  
 
decimation of Normandy will be a sorry blow. 
 
	<bold>Geoffrey of Monmouth</bold>, c. 1136 
 
	<italic>The Prophecies of Merlin 
 
</italic>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~	 
 
Scott Nolan 
 
nolan@erols.com 
 
</x-rich> 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:49:48 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Avengers vs. X-Men 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:55 AM 12/15/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>> >> Wasn't there a time where she absorbed Colossus, Nightcrawler, and Kitty 
>> >> Pryde's powers to beat some big baddy?  Was that the Brood? 
>> > 
>> >That's why I explicitly referred to her trying to absorb an _adversary_. 
>> > 
>> Again, I didn't think this made a difference. 
> 
>Well, when absorbing a teamate the risk of having her personality 
>supplanted isn't really an issue... they're going to have the same 
>immediate goals she has, most likely. 
> 
Right, but it doesn't stop her from being afraid of it in the long run. 
Sure, she could absorb *all* the other X-Men... but she might absorb parts 
of their personalities *permanently*, which is something *most* people 
would avoid. 
(I believe she absorbed a good portion of Ms. Marvel's memories/personality 
when she absorbed the powers, and that was permanent.) 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:56:37 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Special Offers to the list 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-- GoldRushG wrote: 
>  
>   Would the list lurkers here be in favor of occasional special offers on Hero 
> products if we were to do that? Something akin to "No shipping on orders" or a 
> slight discount? We're considering starting seasonal or holiday-themed sales 
> and I wanted to get feedback from folks here on the idea. 
>  
>   Mark @ GRG	Do you seriously expect anybody to say NO to an offer like that? 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:58:47 -0500 (EST) 
From: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
In a message dated 97-12-15 12:17:25 EST, GoldRushG@aol.com writes: 
  
> For a long time, ICE had a deal where you coould trade in your old BBB 
> for a Champs softcover. Are there still a lot of folks left who don't 
> have replacements for their old Champs hardcover? 
 
	I bought my copy the day it arrived at my local gaming shop (which 
has since gone out of business).  I remember saving my money for weeks to 
save up the $40 or so. 
 
	My copy of the book started falling apart after the third 
read-through.  After it fell into more than 6 sections, I borrowed some 
book-binding glue from one of my players (who's copy had also fallen 
apart).  Despite some pages being somewhat stuck together, It was overall 
a great improvement.  Until the day I left it in the sun. 
 
	After one summer afternoon's game, my group retired to the outdoor 
patio for lunch.  Of course, we got caught up in a discussion of the 
rules, and I brought my BBB out to settle it.  The gathering broke up soon 
afterward, as I had to get to work. 
 
	Unfortunately, I forgot my BBB.  After 8 hours of work, I finally 
retrived it from the player's patio.  The time in the sun had done... 
something... to the glue used to rebind it.  It imparted it with a 
super-human stench, stong enough curl nosehairs and warp steel at ten 
paces. 
 
	After subduing my BBB with kryptonite, I waved it out the window 
the entire drive home.  No luck.  I sprayed the interior with Lysol.  No 
luck.  I used it to press sweet-smelling flowers for potpurri.  No luck. 
My BBB still has that same horrible funk to this very day. 
 
	While a replacement would definitely be welcome, I had my doubts 
about whether ICE would accept it.  Besides, I do believe my BBB is too 
evil for Registered Mail. 
 
	          William K. Bushway, wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu 
	          http://Mason.GMU.edu/~wbushway/index.html 
	   "I'm betting that I'm just abnormal enough to survive." 
		    -The Tick, The Tick Vs.The Breadmaster 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:01:40 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:34 PM 12/15/97 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote: 
>>NOT! so you don't have guns? or magic? or ANYTHING? above i was talking about the  
>>GENRE-BOOK, but i believe that was kinda obvious. . . 
> 
>Well, I thought you were being clear before, but now I've kinda lost you.  So let me restate what I think we are talking about:  Put -ALL- the powers and rules and mechanics in -ONE- book and call that the Hero System Rules.  Put all -GENRE- related material (whether superheroes, space opera, fantasy, whatever) in separate books.  -NOT- books with genre-specific rules or powers, just books with examples of how to use the core rules to create genre-specific effects. 
> 
>Scott 
> 
> 
> 
 
 
yes. . precisely. .. as was quite self-evident, i thought. .  
 
 
 
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
>The German dragon shall find it hard to escape  
>to its cavernous lairs, for vengeance for it's  
>treason will overtake it.  In the end it will become  
>strong again, just for a short time, but the  
>decimation of Normandy will be a sorry blow. 
>	Geoffrey of Monmouth, c. 1136 
>	The Prophecies of Merlin 
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~	 
>Scott Nolan 
>nolan@erols.com 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:18:50 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Champions 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
>   I'm afraid I cannot address any more comments regarding a 5th Edition. It 
> seems I misspoke earlier. I welcome your comments about what you'd like to see 
> in future Hero System products from Gold Rush Games, however. 
 
Well that just wet farts outta dead monkey's ass. 
 
You trying to tell me that Steve P and co over at Hero are getting all hot 
and bothered that you want to improve on something they have effectivly 
abandoned?   
 
Doesn't that just beat all. 
 
Unless of course, Hero is planing on actually doing a 5th Edition (HAH!). 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:20:24 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:53 AM 12/15/97 -0800, Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote: 
>At 10:15 AM 12/15/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>> 
>>>    Hey fellow Listers, what do you think of this?  We've been languishing 
>>> for years with little or no official presence on the list, and now we have 
>>> a publisher (Mark), someone with a book in press (Patrick) and one with a 
>>> book in process (me).  Is this list getting better, or what?   :-] 
>> 
>>That's two with books in process, Bob! 
> 
>Well, three, actually.  =) 
> 
Ha?  Wha?  Who? 
Which one? 
 
Is this the PRIMUS update I heard about? 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:29:52 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Rook (Brian Wong) wrote: 
>Filksinger wrote: 
> 
>> My personal request: FIX THE FALLING RULES. They are ridiculous now. 
>> "The monster is right behind you. What do you do?" "I leap off this 
>> building." Yuck. 
> 
>    Speaking of which, does anybody still have issue 100 of Dragon that 
>had that "Bouncing" power? 
> 
>My copy disapeared some time ago. I think it had three or four other new 
>powers as well. 
> 
Bouncing?  Eh?  Cool... please post it. 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:36:43 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
> 
>F> Uh, I can think of a number of SFX that would allow both separate and 
>F> together uses of a power. 
> 
>I like real-world examples: M-16A2 with grenade launcher.  Use the rifle, 
>use the grenade launcher, or use both.  The last is unwieldly, but it can 
>be done. 
> 
Um... not safely.  Usually, you have to aim the M-16/M-203 combination *up* 
at an angle, in order to hit a distant target with the grenade (not really 
a grenade).  You would miss with the rifle.  You also have to pull 2 
triggers, so you're getting a *big* minus to hit (IMO). 
Now, you *could*, I suppose, fire them both at the same *very close* 
target, but then you get hit with the "grenade" damage as well. 
 
- Jerry 
 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:08:04 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:21 PM 12/15/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
>> He can't turn those 25 point peasants into tigers (233 points according to 
>> the HERO Bestiary). 
> 
>This, too, can be done with Transform linked to Aid, or just "Summon 
>Tigers, requires peasants nearby(-1/2)" if you consider the peasants to be 
>effectively just scenery. 
> 
Um, the Aid would be very difficult to work out on that (IMO).  And making 
peasants scenery might work in a lot of cases, but what happens if my 
*mother* the peasant was turned into a tiger?  You calling my Mom scenery, 
bub?  lol 
It cheapens the effect and importance of NPCs to call them, or treat them 
like, scenery. 
 
- Jerry 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:17:29 EST 
Subject: Re: Art in GRG's Hero books 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< (Re: Steve Bryant of FASA fame)... Don't know him. >> 
 
  Steve has done work in Earthdawn & several Earthdawn supplements, Shadowrun 
and others, including some illos in recent issues of Shadis magazine. 
 
(Re: Storn Cook of Hero & Star Wars RPG fame... His stuff is getting better. 
Watchers had some nice pieces. >> 
 
  San Angelo has some great ones! :)  He also did the cover illo. Storn did 
some recent work for ICE, too. 
 
<< (Re: Albert Deschesne)... Sorry, his stuff has never looked any good.  I 
can draw better than him by a long shot. >> 
 
  You haven't seen his San Angelo illos yet. ;)  If I thought his work was 
substandard, I wouldn't have commissioned him to do stuff for SA. Wait 'till 
you see it. 
 
<< (Re: Louis Frank -- anyone read "Haymaker!"?)... I recognize the name, he 
also did stuff in Horror Hero and GAC.  Nice stuff. >> 
 
  His is more of an anime-style look, but very good. He does the illo in the 
front of the introduction chapter. 
 
(Re: Bryce Nakagawa & Greg Smith)... Both very good. .>> 
 
  I agree. 
 
  Perhaps I can post some of the illos to our web site. One or two, at least. 
 
  We've also recently contracted with a new artist to do the illo of the new 
PART armor for the upcoming PART sourcebook. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:17:32 EST 
Subject: Re: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< This place is really getting thick with official presence. >> 
 
  Well, I wouldn't exactly call Pat and Michelle *official* presence...  ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:50:04 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Champions  5th Editi 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> > Don't duck and cover just yet. :^| To begin with, the only thing really 
> > wrong with the original HA isn't really something wrong with HA: its price. 
> > HA costs 3 pts. because 1d6 worth of STR cost 5 points.  One is left with 
> > either the option of raising STR's cost, or living with HA. 
>  
> Raising STR's cost is really close to the top of the priority queue of 
> things to be changed in 5th Edition, IMO. 
 
I think it would also be at the top of the list of new rules ignored if 
they did change the cost;) 
 
TokyoMark 
 
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:04:54 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com> 
Subject: Fifth Edition - Killing Attacks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<x-rich>I've always wondered why Killing Damage costs no more than Normal Damage, when it is so clearly more effective (it is not stopped by non-resistant defenses). 
 
 
Why not simply make "Killing" an advantage on normal damage?  Say...+1/2?  I figure that many purists'd go for +1/4 or more likely just say no, but I truly think that Killing is deadly enough to warrant a +1/2 advantage. 
 
 
Could I hear some thoughts on this, please? 
 
 
 
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
 
The German dragon shall find it hard to escape  
 
to its cavernous lairs, for vengeance for it's  
 
treason will overtake it.  In the end it will become  
 
strong again, just for a short time, but the  
 
decimation of Normandy will be a sorry blow. 
 
	<bold>Geoffrey of Monmouth</bold>, c. 1136 
 
	<italic>The Prophecies of Merlin 
 
</italic>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~	 
 
Scott Nolan 
 
nolan@erols.com 
 
</x-rich> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:07:12 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> >    Speaking of which, does anybody still have issue 100 of Dragon that 
> >had that "Bouncing" power? 
> > 
> >My copy disapeared some time ago. I think it had three or four other new 
> >powers as well. 
> > 
> Bouncing?  Eh?  Cool... please post it. 
>  
 
I still have this.  Coincidentally, I just found this issue yesterday 
while cleaning out my closet.  I'll post the powers from it tommorrow 
unless someone beats me to it. 
 
TokyoMark 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:07:18 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Champions  5th Editi 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:32 PM 12/14/97 -0800, James Jandebeur wrote: 
>Iron Fist is a prime example of someone that the HA at least appears to be 
>seperate from himself.  Certainly, the Iron Fist power protects his hands from 
>damage while he is using it.  However, Opal needs to work on the phrasing, as 
>all that is being said is that the OCV can also be used to block, this being 
>open to special effect.  Notice, also, that Iron Fist is an example of a 
>character who's hand attack transforms his strength and skill into energy 
>damage.  You could argue that this is just a no range energy blast, but then, 
>why not just dump HKA as well and use no range RKA's?  And where does Opal say 
>that you can't buy levels, if that's what you want? 
> 
>JAJ, Rules Philosopher 
> 
> 
> 
 
I'd say drop the 'seperate' bit altogether, . . it REALLY 
gives the wrong impression... just say "ha can be used to block" 
if you have to use it this way. . personally it sounds a lot more like  
rpd to me, and what's all this ocv bonus stuff? spread equivalent? 
I recon it should just be booted up to 4 points, and leave it at that.  
 
 
 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:18:24 -0800 
From: James Jandebeur <jimalj@best.com> 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> One other note. Keep in mind that, primarily because of financial 
> considerations, we are looking at printing the Hero System rules book 
> separately, with Champions being a genre book. Champions would have the super 
> power rules in there, as well as a *much* better treatment of the genre, 
> examples, no "official universe" inside (rather examples and notes on creating 
> several different types, etc., but the Hero System "core" rules would be in 
> the Hero System rules book. 
 
That really sounds like almost the thing to do, anyway.  However, I'm not sure 
what you mean here.  Are you going to seperate the powers into their own seperate 
book?  Powers are what put the Hero System in a class of its own.  The skills and 
characteristics and the rest of it are done by others, with some variation, but no 
one has a unified set of abilities that you can buy to do everything with.  The 
powers rules are used for magic, superpowers, psionics, technology, and so on.  To 
seperate them from the core rules is to make Hero less unique, and to identify the 
rules for powers with a single genre.  I certainly hope that's not what you were 
planning. 
 
JAJ, Rules Philosopher 
 
 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:23:49 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition - Killing Attacks 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:04 AM 12/16/97 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote: 
>I've always wondered why Killing Damage costs no more than Normal Damage, when it is so clearly more effective (it is not stopped by non-resistant defenses). 
> 
>Why not simply make "Killing" an advantage on normal damage?  Say...+1/2?  I figure that many purists'd go for +1/4 or more likely just say no, but I truly think that Killing is deadly enough to warrant a +1/2 advantage. 
> 
>Could I hear some thoughts on this, please? 
> 
> 
> 
 
actually the 'kill dice' advantage could be used for any power,  
but most of them would not benifit from it- unless someone can think  
of a cool way to use two-tiered dice rolls from things like adjustment? 
And i'd call it a +1 advantage. At least. Unless you're planning 
to keep the dc chart as is, in which case you're not really *doing* nething. .  
 
 
 
 
 
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
>The German dragon shall find it hard to escape  
>to its cavernous lairs, for vengeance for it's  
>treason will overtake it.  In the end it will become  
>strong again, just for a short time, but the  
>decimation of Normandy will be a sorry blow. 
>	Geoffrey of Monmouth, c. 1136 
>	The Prophecies of Merlin 
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~	 
>Scott Nolan 
>nolan@erols.com 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:30:10 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
>    - Interrogation should not *necessarily* be violent.  In my campaign, an 
> attorney can use Interrogation to prompt a witness that she doesn't think 
> is telling the truth ("Need I remind you of the penalties for perjury?" and 
> such).  Either that, or there should be a different Skill for this. 
 
Interrogation is not necessarily violent.  Cops grilling someone are using 
interrogation as well.  So would the lawyer, though the more aggressive 
use of the skill would get objections:) 
 
>    - Similarly seduction should not *necessarily* be sexual.  A person can 
> be "seduced" by wealth, fame, and power.  (Arguably, of course, this could 
> be represented with Bribery, though it seems to my mind closer to 
> Seduction, semantically speaking.) 
>  
 
Well, seducing someone with wealth and power is purely semantics.  The 
skill seems to be a skill that allows you to get on friendly terms with 
someone.  People usually think of this as romantic, but it need not be. 
 
TokyoMark 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:30:39 EST 
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart! 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< I'm a junkie. I need a fix. When's that San Angelo thing coming out 
again... >> 
 
  <LOL> Should be in January. Hey, that's next month! 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:34:30 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> >Okay, for acrobatics in a fight: Jackie Chan vs Ken Lo in Drunken Master 
> >II! 
> > 
> Say, how would one do drunken fighting, anyway?  I know there's a section 
> on it in Ninja Hero, under Kung Fu, and they list -2 OCV/DCV later in NH, 
> but... 
> Drunken Fighters get *better* when they are drunk, right?  So, CSL, only 
> when drunk? 
 
I think it could vary.  In Drunken Master II Jackie's Drunken Style is 
called weak unless he has been drinking.  If he gets too drunk he 
can't fight though. 
 
I'd say skill levels with limitations.  Probably damage reduction with 
limitations and maybe even a damage class or two with limitations.   
 
 
TokyoMark 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:35:51 EST 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< - Interrogation should not *necessarily* be violent.  ...an attorney can 
use Interrogation to prompt a witness that she doesn't think is telling the 
truth ("Need I remind you of the penalties for perjury?" and such).  Either 
that, or there should be a different Skill for this. >> 
 
  How about Conversation? 
 
  "This PRE-based Skill allows the character to extract information from 
people with careful conversation. ...if the Skill is properly performed, the 
victim won't be awarte he has divulged anything." 
 
  Sounds like typical courtroom drama to me! <LOL> 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:37:49 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition - Killing Attacks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>I've always wondered why Killing Damage costs no more than Normal Damage, 
when it is so clearly more effective (it is not stopped by non-resistant 
defenses). 
>> 
>>Why not simply make "Killing" an advantage on normal damage?  Say...+1/2? 
 I figure that many purists'd go for +1/4 or more likely just say no, but I 
truly think that Killing is deadly enough to warrant a +1/2 advantage. 
>> 
>>Could I hear some thoughts on this, please? 
> 
>actually the 'kill dice' advantage could be used for any power,  
>but most of them would not benifit from it- unless someone can think  
>of a cool way to use two-tiered dice rolls from things like adjustment? 
>And i'd call it a +1 advantage. At least. Unless you're planning 
>to keep the dc chart as is, in which case you're not really *doing* 
nething. .  
 
Eh, you're right.  Okay, what I -really- think should happen is that 
killing attacks should cost more.  Plain and simple.  7 cp/DC sounds about 
right to me. 
 
Scott 
 
X-Sender: shelley@mail.mactyre.net 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:43:57 -0800 
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net> 
Subject: Re: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:20 PM 12/15/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
>Is this the PRIMUS update I heard about? 
 
Yep.  I'm looking at having the rough draft done in early January.  It will 
have a lot of the elements of my PRIMUS website, but oh-so-much more!  It's 
all been cleaned up, is much more extensive, and is less "Golden Hawks" 
specific.  Updates to my website may be on the slow side until I'm done, so 
please, I hope y'all bear with me.  Interestingly enough, I've found that 
much of the "Ask the Golden Avenger" page has provided excellent fodder for 
explaining the organization, so thanks to all of you who have sent 
questions over the past twenty months!  
 
PRIMUS can be found at http://www.mactyre.net/scm/primus.html   
 
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre 
www.mactyre.net 
 
Your children will see the stars. 
--Robert A. Heinlein 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:10:45 EST 
Subject: Re: PART 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Don't forget those neat standard issue chronometers. You know, the 
"PART timers". >> 
 
  ::groan...:: 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:11:57 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Gameworld, ect 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Hmmm, I stumbled onto a place called 'gameworld' the other day, aparently 
a semi-graphical setup for conducting rpg games in. I think the main  
appeal was supposed to be a 'map' type function, which i suppose  
could be utilised for champions hex-grid combat, although I assumed  
it was an isometric cube grid myself. . . In any event, Has anyone come  
across a nice online setup which could be used for more than just  
straight text exchange? (ie easy to setup mechanics managers, graphical  
representations, ect, preferably set up deliberatly with rpg's in mind) 
 
I realise this subject was sullied last time by the "'pow-pow'"  
incident, but I thought it'd make a nice change from the gld,  
c5thed and xva........ Ok, I admit it, i'm getting a really  
nice comp after x-time and I want to pick your brains for  
data *g*  
 
 
 
 
PS: and what's this i hear about ultima going online? what's next, 60 
player quake? *l*  
 
 
 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:14:18 EST 
Subject: Killing Attacks in 4th Ed. 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< So you are saying that 1 Damage Class would equal 3d6 K (killing) >> 
 
  I'm not sure I get it either. :/  I foyu chasnge the rice scale for KAs, 
wouldn't you necessarily have to change the structure of K Defenses, too? 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:23:52 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Art?  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
If a potental artiat was putting together a package of samples for you, what 
would you suggest he put in it? 
 
Do you look at on-line art pages? 
 
Would you rather have a disk of scanned in stuff or photocopies? 
 
What kind of assignments are you looking of art for? 
 
Inquiring artists want to know... 
 
Michael 
 
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:27:22 EST 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Then such a ruling had better be clearly stated in the text for the 
skill.>> 
 
  It's not a ruling, people, it's a *sugegstion*. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:32:31 EST 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart! 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< I meant, of course, that it has to *weight* several factors. Oi! I need to 
get more sleep! >> 
 
  Apparently I still didn't get enough sleep. Let's try this again -- it has 
to WEIGH several factors, not *weight* several factors. Boy, oh boy... 
 
  And I call myself an *editor*? 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:37:34 EST 
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions) 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< As I learned from a disastrous engagement, things that seem too good to be 
true usually are. Oh, well, I'm sure you're feeling like you put your foot in 
your mouth, Mark. Don't worry too much about it - I'm sure most here will 
understand that it was an unintended error, and besides, all it takes is 
anybody using the term "5th Edition" to get this list ranting about it for 
weeks.  Please keep in mind that there is an enthusiastic market for this 
product out there, should it ever be within your power to publish it. >> 
 
  I can niether confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning 
stages. ::Sigh:: I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:43:52 EST 
Subject: Re: Champions 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Well that just wet farts outta dead monkey's... >> 
 
  <LOL> Now THAT'S a descriptive if I ever read one! 
 
<< You trying to tell me that Steve P and co over at Hero are getting all hot 
and bothered that you want to improve on something they have effectivly 
abandoned? >> 
 
  No, that is definitely NOT what I am trying to tell you. 
 
<< Doesn't that just beat all. >> 
 
  No, it doesn't, because you have misinterpreted my message. **Don't** read 
anything into this, folks. Do NOT let yourselves become all doom and gloomy 
again! You were so HAPPY for a spell. Please continue this thought process! 
All is not lost! 
 
<< Unless of course, Hero is planing on actually doing a 5th Edition (HAH!). 
>> 
 
  I can neither confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning 
stages. ::Sigh:: I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:49:13 EST 
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions) 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Seriously, the fact that there won't be one (they say...) doesn't mean that 
we shouldn't talk about how the current game could be better. >> 
 
  I can niether confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning 
stages. I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:50:43 EST 
Subject: Re: Golden Age hero art 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< I still say that Madame Moonlight has one of the best costume designs in 
all of the Champions books.>> 
 
  I'm going to have to go back and look at that again... 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:50:44 EST 
Subject: Pirate Hero 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< I'd really buy that.  GRG, are you listening?  There may be some 
interest in reviving Pirate Hero. >> 
 
  Don't tell me. Tell the author(s)! I don't go hunting down people to write 
opur products. They send us proposals, and Hero (and myself) must approve 
them. *Then* we discuss publishing the book. Until then, all it is is a good 
idea. ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: Pat10355 <Pat10355@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:53:06 EST 
Subject: Re: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 97-12-15 17:29:54 EST, redbf@ldd.net writes: 
 
<< 	I am pretty new to this list as well and have been enjoying it ever 
 since. I downloaded your first two chapters of the Gold Rush Games 
 Website and me and my group took a session to read it. 
 	Wow!! Great job. We all loved the quotes you used and can't wait to 
 play it. I wish it was January now. >> 
 
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed the draft preview. You might be interested to 
know that the final draft of those two chapters includes an expanded timeline, 
clarified description of the flux and a few additional quotes. 
 
Then there's the whole rest of the book, of course. :) 
 
Patrick Sweeney 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:10:37 -0800 
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On Monday, December 15, 1997 5:08 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
 
>   It took a little while, but I've finally come up with a handful of 
the 
>specific suggestions (most of them minor, and not all of them my own) 
that 
>I have for adjusting the Hero System: 
> 
>   - Interrogation should not *necessarily* be violent.  In my 
campaign, an 
>attorney can use Interrogation to prompt a witness that she doesn't 
think 
>is telling the truth ("Need I remind you of the penalties for 
perjury?" and 
>such).  Either that, or there should be a different Skill for this. 
 
I agree. Even the standard Interrogation need not include actual 
torture. A friend of mine who was a prisoner-of-war interrogator 
during Viet Nam used to tell me how you could break a person, without 
ever violating the Geneva Convention. _None_ of the techniques 
mentioned involved actual torture, in the physical sense. 
 
>   - Similarly seduction should not *necessarily* be sexual.  A 
person can 
>be "seduced" by wealth, fame, and power.  (Arguably, of course, this 
could 
>be represented with Bribery, though it seems to my mind closer to 
>Seduction, semantically speaking.) 
 
Originally, Seduction was the skill of making friends and becoming 
trusted. Sex was an extention of this, role played. (I assume. They 
never mentioned it.) I have a super hero in my present PBEM game who 
is a priest in his SecretID. I gave him seduction based upon the 
assumption that he could make friends with almost _anyone_, even if 
they were enemies in spite of it all. 
 
<snip> 
>   - Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb.  My own 
>structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for lesser 
utility 
>(3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single 
tentacle 
>or prehensile tail). 
 
I'm split on this one. Extra Limbs doesn't add enough to be worth 
this, and I don't want that to change. However, I never liked the 
unlimited number of limbs rule, either. 
 
How about a x2 limbs for a low cost? This would allow squids, hundred 
armed giants, etc, without costing excessively. 
 
<snip> 
>   - Hand-to-Hand Attack should *not* be omitted; this would leave us 
with 
>the old kludge of "+X STR, Only for Damage."  Use Opal's version 
instead. 
 
Personally, I prefer the version at 
www.herogames.com/herogames/energyblast.html 
 
<snip> 
 
 
>   - Transform should be more specifically described as well, 
especially in 
>terms of what constitutes Cosmetic, Minor, and Major Transforms.  (I 
tend 
>to go with this:  if it doesn't affect the character sheet, it's 
Cosmetic; 
>if it shifts points around on the sheet or alters specific Powers but 
>doesn't change the totals, it's Minor; if it changes point totals, 
it's 
>Major.) 
 
I like this. Add an additional level to Transform, for Transformations 
that are _extremely_ beneficial to the attacker. "Turn human into 
frog" shouldn't cost the same as "Turn human into my willing slave". 
 
<snip> 
>   - Explosion should be +3/4 so it doesn't cost the same as AE: One 
Hex. 
>(The old method of making AE: One Hex cost +1/4 wouldn't work, 
because then 
>it would hit the proverbial floor if it's Nonselective.)  The 
Selective 
>Target and Nonselective Target options for AE should also be 
available. 
 
Agree about the Selective and Non-selective, but not the Advantage's 
value. The ability to hit one hex but not the one next to it is 
roughly equivallent to the ability to create an explosive effect. One 
is good for agents, the other good for villains near normals or 
explosives. 
 
<snip> 
 
In general, I have to agree, in principle at least, with everything 
Bob has said. This is subject to good refutations, of course. 
 
Filksinger 
 
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 02:13:05 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
><< You trying to tell me that Steve P and co over at Hero are getting all hot 
>and bothered that you want to improve on something they have effectivly 
>abandoned? >> 
> 
>  No, that is definitely NOT what I am trying to tell you. 
> 
><< Doesn't that just beat all. >> 
> 
>  No, it doesn't, because you have misinterpreted my message. **Don't** read 
>anything into this, folks. Do NOT let yourselves become all doom and gloomy 
>again! You were so HAPPY for a spell. Please continue this thought process! 
>All is not lost! 
> 
><< Unless of course, Hero is planing on actually doing a 5th Edition (HAH!). 
>>> 
> 
>  I can neither confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning 
>stages. ::Sigh:: I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic. 
> 
>  Mark @ GRG 
 
In other words: keep talking about what you'd like to see in an 
-hypothetical- 5th Edition.  Just -don't- blame it on Mark. 
 
Wink, nudge. 
 
Scott 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Storm, Iron Man and the wimpy X-Men 
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:15:49 -0800 
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On Monday, December 15, 1997 5:34 AM, Curtis Gibson wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>Then there is the one fight I remember that gave me new respect for 
>spidey. I don't recall the set up, but he was being chased by 
Firelord 
>(the Herald of Galactus). He tried to get help from every major 
>superteam in NYC, then when none of them were in, finally turned on 
>Firelord and started to fight him. When all of the teams that he had 
>gone to for help showed up, there was the unconcious form of Firelord 
>with Spidey over him, gasping for breath. The reaction shots of the 
>Avengers and FF at Spiderman having taken out a herald of Galactus is 
>pricelss. 
 
 
I love it! <G> 
 
I always liked the idea that Spidey, even if he didn't have the raw 
power of many of them, was still one of the top heroes of the Marvel 
Universe, on a par (in some senses) with Thor, Iron Man, or, possibly, 
the Silver Surfer. 
 
Filksinger 
 
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 02:18:17 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Needed: Mentalist Inspiration 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>I was hoping the folks on this list could help with a character design. I've  
>been invited to join an ongoing Champions game, and the other player want 
me to  
>create a mentalist to help round out their party. Now, I've been playing and  
>GMing in the Hero System for years, but I've never much liked mentalists. 
So, I  
>want some unconventional suggestions for mentalism powers to give me some  
>inspiration. The concepts I've come up with so far (I do concepts first, 
build  
>system after) are: 
 
All I can say from personal experience is:  Make sure that you've got 
-some- way to affect non-thinking opponents, even if it is not to damage 
them.  I've been bored through way too many fights to ever make that 
mistake again.  Psychokinesis is one way.  There are plenty of others! 
 
>PS: What does LOL stand for anyway? 
 
"Laughing out Loud". 
 
Related to ROTFL: Rolling on the Floor Laughing. 
 
Scott 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 02:48:38 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>> > And as for powers with charges -- you blew a charge, plain and 
>> >simple, by using the power.  You're down one charge and there ain't 
>> no way 
>> >I'm letting an argument get that back. 
>> 
>> Indeed. "You just ran out of bullets in your six-shooter." "No, that 
>> first shot was a show of force." 
>> 
>> THWAP! (Sound of BBB (softcover) hitting player's head.) 
> 
> 
>	I'd prefer a large handful of dice, myself . . . 
> 
But then they don't make that satisfying "THWAP!" sound...  <g> 
 
- Jerry 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:02:43 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Mark @ GRG wrote: 
><< Seriously, the fact that there won't be one (they say...) doesn't mean 
that 
>we shouldn't talk about how the current game could be better. >> 
> 
>  I can niether confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning 
>stages. I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic. 
> 
Once more, this time with feeling... 
lol 
Actually, you're getting the hang of that, now.  That's 3 messages in a 
row.  : ) 
 
- Jerry 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:06:07 EST 
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart! 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< My BBB hasn't started to disintegrate yet. >> 
 
  Just so everyone understands, by BBB I mean the old hardback edition, not 
the new "Champiojns Deluxe" hardback. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:14:49 EST 
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart! 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< While a replacement would definitely be welcome, I had my doubts about 
whether ICE would accept it.>> 
 
  They won't, but we will. Assuming that the damage is from faulty binding 
(and not from dropping it in a cesspool <G>)... 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:19:19 EST 
Subject: Re: I stand chastised 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< I apologize for any hurt feelings out there. I realize that anything beyond 
my first reply would have this effect. I hope my fellow Christians on the list 
would understand the source of my zeal. The Bible says contend for the Faith. 
The discussion has gone to private email.>> 
 
  No hurt feelings or offense taken here, Kev. Marge and I be Christians, too. 
:) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:35:49 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th edition cont'd 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>> IMAGES: no area effected... buy an area effect on it to increase the area, 
>> and use those rules to make it larger... 
>>	So just how big of an image to you create with the base power.  (Try  
>reading the cricket scores on a TV screen the size of a postage stamp and 
I'll  
>show you a waste of time.) 
 
Of course, the same might be said for reading cricket scores of  -any- size... 
 
Scott 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites?? 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:41:24 -0800 
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On Wednesday, December 10, 1997 6:06 AM, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>For (b), I would built it as FTL, with the "only on energy currents" 
>limitation, and an advantage that it can work in an atmosphere. This 
>advantage isn't exactly orthodox; I tend to make up advantages 
without the 
>sanction of the rules. It should also be linked to Desolid. 
> 
>The alternative is to build it as a Teleport. Many people feel this 
is 
>more legitimate, though I don't know why ignoring the description of 
>teleport as travel between points without crossing the intervening 
space 
>is any more legitimate than ignoring the restriction that FTL doesn't 
work 
>in an atmosphere. 
 
 
While I don't necessarily disagree, there is a specific reason why the 
second is legitimate and the first is not. The first a) does something 
specifically forbidden, and b) creates a new Advantage. The second a) 
changes the power in a way not forbidden, and b) creates a new 
Limitation. New Limitations are strictly kosher; new advantages are 
not. 
 
>Actually, I never liked that blanket ruling on FTL. The fact of the 
matter 
>is that people do travel FTL (or at least lightspeed) within the 
>atmosphere in comics, and a superhero game should have a mechanism 
for 
>doing so. As your example indicates, it need not be unbalancing to 
game 
>play. 
 
Except that it is a much cheaper way to buy Teleportation, and with 
much greater range as well. By duplicating an existing power _and_ 
making it much cheaper to boot, you are violating at least two basic 
rules for creating new constructs: don't duplicate existing Powers, 
and if two ways of doing something exist, the more expensive one is 
probably the way to go. 
 
By using Desolidification and FTL, you are _precisely_ duplicating 
Teleportation. You are more cheaply creating _exactly_ a power that 
_already exists_. 
 
I'm not a stickler for the rules, either as written or as I interpret 
them, but that is going a bit far. 
 
OTOH, I definitely _do_ want a much cheaper way of traveling long 
distances, with Flight or Teleportation. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 02:15:34 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Special Offers to the list 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> << No darnit! I refuse to get a discount! In fact, I'm going to pay double, no 
> make that triple, heck. TEN times the cover price!!!! >> 
> 
>   I think you have us mixed up with another company... ;) 
 
    What? This isn't Games Workshop? No Warhammer? 
You mean I've been on the wrong list all this time??? 
 
:) 
 
 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 02:33:49 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Champions  5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> > 
> Were you the one who said the same about Limited?  That debating Linked was 
> 'moot,' because you can simply redefine it with the 'Limited' Limitation? 
> Doesn't that mean we could save some space in the book by not printing any 
> Advantages/Limitations *besides* Advantaged and Limited? 
 
    Works for me. Do that then provide some samples like limitd does currently. 
 
Course I agreed with an idea proposed for Fuzion at one point which was to change 
all 
powers to simply a description with a number, then a "Use Power" skill to 
manipulate it 
to get whatever game mechanic needed for the special effect at hand. 
Smething like: 
 
Ice Powers 10 
Magnetic Powers 15 
 
Then a list of different mechanics that could achieved with it. Effectivly making 
every power a VPP of 
sorts. 
 
But that's a Fuzion/Instant Fuzion topic, or was, I stopped reading that list a 
while back. 
 
 
-- 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:07:27 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Greetings II: Revenge of Greetings 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote: 
 
> At 10:20 PM 12/15/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote: 
> >Is this the PRIMUS update I heard about? 
> 
> Yep.  I'm looking at having the rough draft done in early January.  It will 
> have a lot of the elements of my PRIMUS website, but oh-so-much more!  It's 
> all been cleaned up, is much more extensive, and is less "Golden Hawks" 
> specific.  Updates to my website may be on the slow side until I'm done, so 
> please, I hope y'all bear with me.  Interestingly enough, I've found that 
> much of the "Ask the Golden Avenger" page has provided excellent fodder for 
> explaining the organization, so thanks to all of you who have sent 
> questions over the past twenty months! 
 
    Are you also downgrading the power level of them? 
The stuff you have on your website is very potent. But then I suspect that's 
only because it was made for a game where the PC's come in at 400 points (or 
was it 300?). 
 
    As 'Agents', Primus should be weaker than the Heroes. Only fits the genre. 
Personally, I've always felt the current published versions were a little too 
powerful. But then I'm 
a member of the 'one hit to go down' school of Agent thinking. 
 
-- 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:21:12 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 12/14/97 6:03 PM, GoldRushG (GoldRushG@aol.com) Said: 
 
>Are there still a lot of folks left who don't have 
>replacements for their old Champs hardcover? 
 
   My C4 hardcover is currently in a three-ring binder.  As mentioned 
before, I love the cover art, so the front and back covers are 
duct-taped onto the front and back covers (respectively) of the binder.  
It's actually a pretty useful configuration; since I don't use any 
published characters from anywhere without rewriting them - if only to 
accommodate my myriad house rules - I simply insert the character sheets 
with my versions in the book next to the source page, so they are still 
locatable by the book's index (like anybody ever really uses the index 
anymore....) 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:28:37 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Special Offers to the list 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
GoldRushG wrote: 
>  
>   Would the list lurkers here be in favor of occasional special offers on Hero 
> products if we were to do that? Something akin to "No shipping on orders" or a 
> slight discount? We're considering starting seasonal or holiday-themed sales 
> and I wanted to get feedback from folks here on the idea. 
>  
>   Mark @ GRG 
 
   Hey, that works for me!  Where do I sign?  I really like the 'no 
shipping' idea. 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann) 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:58:07 -0800 
Organization: Terminal BBS  (403)327-9731 
Subject: That's What I Want... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 -=> Quoting John and Ron Prins to Mike Lehmann <=- 
 
 >Hiya John. Long time, no argue... :) 
 
 JaRP> Heh. How long ago was that really big row between us? ^_^ Year and a 
 JaRP> half? 
 
Something like that. I think the GLD had something to do about it... <g> 
 
 > JaRP> Now, back to Absorption acting in a 'damage transformation' manner. 
 > JaRP> Watch how easy this is: for every die of Absorption, you REMOVE one DC 
 > JaRP> of damage from the attack. 
  
 >Personally, I think this is what Damage Reduction was intended for, but  
 >different strokes... 
 
 JaRP> Yeah, it does bear some similarities, doesn't it? Though Damage 
 JaRP> Reduction takes place after all defenses apply, where as that Abs. 
 JaRP> construct takes place before.  
 
Which, IMO, makes it dangerous to just cut the dice. When they give 10  
PD/ED (base + Force Field/extra defense) to the average blaster, that 8  
dice cutdown (from 10d6 to 2d6) makes you virtually immune to damage.  
 
I might like to have such a power, but I'd hate to fight someone with  
it. :) 
 
 >I have also been wondering about the utility of Absorption lately, and I  
 >had a few ideas for house rulings: 
 > 1) The 5 points/d6 stands, but it now converts from STUN damage to CPs; 
 
 JaRP> Oik. Too much. Then it really is Aid, just under another name. 
 
As I said, I operate under the assumption that Absorption automatically  
(as in -0 Limitation) is restricted to one attack form (such as fire),  
to keep it at least moderately fair... 
  
 > 2) The power works the same as in the book, but is now 3 points/d6  
 >       (like Dispel); 
 
 JaRP> Fairer. 
  
 > 3) The power is bought like John suggested, but the dice are rolled to  
 >       conter the attack, STUN to STUN, BODY to BODY. The ability to  
 >       counter out dice, IMO, is pretty potent; 
 
 JaRP> Possibly, and this isn't such a bad idea; as it stands you have to 
 JaRP> roll Absorption dice anyways, so it's not adding any extra rolls, is 
 JaRP> it?  
 
Nope. The only problem I foresee is someone might try to modify it into  
that "flame shield" power... ;) 
 
 >I'm seriously looking at #1, primarily because, as John stated, you  
 >don't get enough out of regular Absorption to make it worthwhile... And  
 
 JaRP> I was referring to not getting enough 'defense' out of Armor 'only up 
 JaRP> to Absorption roll', though Absorption does, on average, provide only 
 JaRP> 1/3 to 1/4 the CP gain as an equivalent cost Aid. 
 
I prefer to go with PD/ED bought without the "only up to Absorption  
roll". Otherwise, you're opening yourself up to a world of hurt... 
  
 >As an aside, does anyone else here restrict the SFX of attacks that  
 >someone's Damage Reduction/Absorption/etc. can function against (ie  
 >fire, cold, punches, etc.) rather than just Energy/Physical damage? 
 
 JaRP> Sure. IIRC, the Damage Reduction writeup gives specific examples - 
 JaRP> "Only vs. Fire/Heat, (-1)". No reason Absorption shouldn't do the same. 
 
But I mean inherently restricted (-0 limitation). PD/ED is varied enough  
as is to warrant a -1 for fire, but I require that powers like DR,  
Absorption, etc. to be specific to an attack form. 
 
Not that the book goes this way; I know it doesn't. Just wondering if  
anyone else goes about it this way. 
 
GM: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net                    | Justice Krewe 
Web: http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html  | The Illuminators 
Short waiting list for new players                    | Enigma Watch 
Lurkers welcome (Write to me!)                        | KnightWatch 
 
... This is where Aldo Farnese got his start - Tom on credits 
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR] 
 
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From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann) 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 04:22:22 -0800 
Organization: Terminal BBS  (403)327-9731 
Subject: That's What I Want... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 -=> Quoting John and Ron Prins to Mike Lehmann <=- 
 
 JaRP> Crap, you're right. Silly me, going off confusing the Entangle/Flash 
 JaRP> method of accounting with Absorption. What I should have said was "low 
 JaRP> likelyhood of actually getting the full use out your Absorption total 
 JaRP> (unless it's small), because in order for that to happen you'd have to 
 JaRP> take several hits over the course of your phase." Especially with the 
 JaRP> 'no defense' method, where getting hit multiple times is bad, very bad. 
 
Particularly if those attacks count as Coordinated. 
 
 JaRP> Something tells me that, on average, it's a lot better to buy 4D6 
 JaRP> Absorption and screeds of +Capacity than 8D6 Absorption, unless you can 
 JaRP> soak a _lot_ of fire over a short period. 
 
Here's a portion of one of my old players who had (impact/kinetic)  
Absorption as a primary power, that might illustrate using the power: 
 
      8 Damage Resistance (10 PD/10 ED, IIF Armored Costume)           0 - 
     20 25 PD (only vs. impact-type attacks)                           0 - 
     56 Absorption (3d6, Max. 20, To STR 1:1, CON 1:2, BODY 1:2,       0 - 
           REC 1:2, END 2:1, STUN 1:1, Fade 5 points per 5 minutes) 
 
The character could peak at 40 STR, 25 CON, 25 BODY, 20 REC, 70 END and  
70 STUN. Of course, this included the +2 for multiple stats gaining the  
points at once, and +1/2 for the bought-down fade rate. He effectively  
had 15PD/10rPD, 15ED/15rED, +25 PD vs. impact-type attacks (a -1/4  
limitation at best)...  
 
It was easy to reach maximum potential quickly, because the max was low  
and each stat got the same points.  
 
This type of construction, of course, is potentially easy to abuse because all powers & stats could be under the umbrella of the +2 Advantage. 
 
If we went with 3 points/d6, the cost would be 35 points. Significant  
savings.  
 
Does anything think that would be "too significant"? 
 
GM: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net                    | Justice Krewe 
Web: http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html  | The Illuminators 
Short waiting list for new players                    | Enigma Watch 
Lurkers welcome (Write to me!)                        | KnightWatch 
 
... The worst ice cream flavor is probably squirrel. 
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR] 
 
 JaRP> to Absorption roll', though A 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Internet: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net  <<<<<<<<<<< 
The TERMINAL BBS                                            Fidonet; 1:358/17 
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 05:10:08 -0800 (PST) 
From: "Captain D.A. Gold" <cptgold@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: Special Offers to the list 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
---Filksinger  wrote: 
> 
> On Sunday, December 14, 1997 3:41 PM, GoldRushG wrote: 
>  
>  
> >  Would the list lurkers here be in favor of occasional special 
> offers on Hero 
> >products if we were to do that? Something akin to "No shipping on 
> orders" or a 
> >slight discount? We're considering starting seasonal or 
> holiday-themed sales 
> >and I wanted to get feedback from folks here on the idea. 
>  
>  
> Thank you very much for actually _asking_. Since you did ask, I'd say 
> yes, otherwise.... 
>  
> Filksinger 
>  
>  
>  
Yes, I would be interested. We have a fanatical (in a nice way) 
Champions following and would probably take an interest in any special 
offers.  
 
On another note, would you be interested in any additional 
playtesters, convention reps, and all around good guys (and gals) in 
the Columbus/Dayton, Ohio area? 
== 
Captain D.A. Gold 
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 97 13:52:03  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:37:34 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
><< As I learned from a disastrous engagement, things that seem too good to be 
>true usually are. Oh, well, I'm sure you're feeling like you put your foot in 
>your mouth, Mark. Don't worry too much about it - I'm sure most here will 
>understand that it was an unintended error, and besides, all it takes is 
>anybody using the term "5th Edition" to get this list ranting about it for 
>weeks.  Please keep in mind that there is an enthusiastic market for this 
>product out there, should it ever be within your power to publish it. >> 
> 
>  I can niether confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning 
>stages. ::Sigh:: I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic. 
 
That's ok, we'll still discuss it to death.  Just sit back and giggle. 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:03:35 -0600 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net 
Organization: Redbow Antiques 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> At 12:15 PM 12/15/97 -0600, bobby farris wrote: 
> >At the risk of getting lynched I would like to say that one thing 
> >Fuzion did that I would like to see in a 5th edition of Champions is 
> the change in the Damage class table. 
> > Make Damage class three killing attack be 3d6K not 1d6K. It would 
> make it a lot less confusing. 
> > I think it wouldn't destroy any 4th edition characters just make it 
> >where you had to do a little math before you used them(math is 
> something no Champions player should have a problem with). 
  
Scott Nolan wrote 
> I disagree, vehemently. The 'ton's 'o dice' paradigm is bad enough 
> without sucking in killing damage, too. 
>  
> First, if the math of conversion doesn't confuse you, then the 3DC= 1 
> die killing shouldn't be too very taxing, either. 
>  
> Second, the more dice you roll, the less random the result. You are 
> far more likely to get an average result on, say 6d6 than you are on 
> 2d6. Randomness is critical, especially at the lower end of power, 
> where most killing attacks get used. 
>  
> Those of you with characters that do 24d6 damage should just consider 
> applying 84 stun and 24 body every time and save your wrists from all 
> that dice rolling. 
 
	I don't totally disagree with you, however I was wondering if you think 
that normal damage class should be taken down to 1d6=1DC? 
	 
	What about the stun lottery for killing attacks? I think they should 
ditch that too. 
 
Subject: Re: Germania! 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-6,9-11 
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:05:03 EST 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>I have fiendish plans for the PCs in my Pulp campaign regarding  
>Germania, 
>>that sturdy embodiment of Germanic womanhood from GAC. However, I  
>hate the 
>>name.  Anybody have a better one for this amply-built refugee from a 
>>Wagnerian opera? 
 
As I recall, in her Secret ID she had some sort of "motherhood" award 
(don't have the book handy right now), so how about Erda (mother of the 
Valkyries)? 
 
Leah 
 
Subject: Green Hornet conversion 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-3,7-8,14-15,23-27 
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:05:03 EST 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Any other old-radio fans on the list?   I'm working on converting the 
radio/movie serial version of the Green Hornet to Hero System, and have 
hit a couple snags: 
 
1.  I know the Black Beauty routinely outran cop cars, but did they ever 
decide just how fast it went?  Also, in the serials it had better 
cornering than many other cars, what would be the best way to handle 
that? 
 
2.  The gas gun.  The example of a gas attack in the rulebook is NND, 
defense Life Support or holding breath.  So far, I haven't found a single 
time when someone was able to hold their breath and avoid passing out 
from the Hornet's gas, so NND wouldn't be appropriate here.  Would AVLD, 
defense Life Support work, or should I bite the bullet and make it one 
heck of a STUN Drain? 
 
3.  An obvious disad for the Hornet is Reputation 14-.  However, in his 
Secret ID Britt Reid is (locally) famous -- noted newspaper publisher, 
wealthy, seen in all the best clubs.  I have several radio episodes on 
tape with some version of  "I can't visit him as the Hornet, he knows me 
as Britt Reid and might recognize me" in the dialogue.  Buying Reputation 
twice, once for Reid's reputation and once for the Hornet's, feels like 
cheating.  Would it be legit to buy Reputation once and have two 
different definitions of what the Reputation is? 
 
Thanks. 
 
Leah 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:11:39 -0600 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net 
Organization: Redbow Antiques 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Sparx wrote: 
>  
> So you are saying that 1 Damage Class would equal 3d6 K (killing) meaning it would translate to 9d6 Normal?  Yes, I can see that ruining a lot of 4th Edition characters.  The amount of power they would get for just one damage class would be horrible.  Or am I misunderstanding you somewhere here?  So now I would have to buy 1/3 Damage class just to get 3d6 Normal damage or 1/9 Damage Class to equal 1 dice of normal damage?  
	To much math for me. Like I said, please explain further if I'm 
confused to what you are saying. Otherwise, maybe I'm pointing something 
out here that would suggest not making 1 Damage Class equal to 3d6 
Killing.  Take it easy and talk at you later. 
>  
> Sparx 
 
	Let me explain. I think 1DC should equal 1d6 normal dice and 1d6 
killing dice. Obvioulsy the cost of Killing dice would still be 15pts 
per die and the cost of normal dice would be 5 per die. 
	To compensate for the increased Killing dice the a characters body 
would have to raised by a multiplication factor. 
	It would be just as easy to convert 4th edition characters to my system 
as it would is to convert 4th edition to Fuzion 
	 
	This is just an idea. I just want to see what others think. Scott Nolan 
did bring up an idea that increasing the killing dice would get rid of 
some of the randomness and I am still thinking about this. 
 
X-Sender: naneiden@iswest.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 06:11:39 -0800 
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com> 
Subject: Re: Green Hornet conversion 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:05 AM 12/16/97 EST, llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) wrote: 
> 
> 
>3.  An obvious disad for the Hornet is Reputation 14-.  However, in his 
>Secret ID Britt Reid is (locally) famous -- noted newspaper publisher, 
>wealthy, seen in all the best clubs.  I have several radio episodes on 
>tape with some version of  "I can't visit him as the Hornet, he knows me 
>as Britt Reid and might recognize me" in the dialogue.  Buying Reputation 
>twice, once for Reid's reputation and once for the Hornet's, feels like 
>cheating.  Would it be legit to buy Reputation once and have two 
>different definitions of what the Reputation is? 
 
Nah, it's not cheating. 
 
As long as he has the disadvantage Secret ID, there is nothing wrong with 
buying him two reputations, one for each ID. If for some reason, his ID was 
publicly revealed, he'd have to not only pay off the Secret ID, but he'd 
have to combine the two Reps into one. 
 
At least, that's how I'd do it. :) 
 
-Nic 
 
               +------------------------------------------------------+ 
               |                  naneiden@iswest.com                 | 
               |        Justice, Like Lightning, Thunderbolts!        | 
               | http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/thunder.html  | 
               |                   Costumed Heroines                  | 
               |         http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/      | 
               +------------------------------------------------------+ 
 
X-Sender: gold_phoenix@pop.cyberun.net 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:12:26 -0400 
From: "E. David Miller" <gold_phoenix@cyberun.net> 
Subject: Re: Needed: Mentalist Inspiration 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 1:59 AM +0000 12/16/97, Stirling Westrup wrote: 
>I was hoping the folks on this list could help with a character design. I've 
>been invited to join an ongoing Champions game, and the other player want 
>me to 
>create a mentalist to help round out their party. Now, I've been playing and 
>GMing in the Hero System for years, but I've never much liked mentalists. 
>So, I 
>want some unconventional suggestions for mentalism powers to give me some 
>inspiration. The concepts I've come up with so far (I do concepts first, 
>build 
>system after) are: 
> 
> 
>Mental Invisibility. 
>Induced Psychometry 
>Mental Transform 
>Skill Drain 
 
> Stirling Westrup 
 
 
Some other powers I might suggest would include: 
 
Psionic Power Blocking: 
	The mentalist analyzes a character's mind and the way their powers 
function in regards to their mind. With many (though admittedly not all) 
characters, their powers are activated by their minds.  With this power, 
the mentalist reaches into that part of the target's mind and "switches" 
their powers off, or blocks them from being accessed. 
 
Telepathic Combat Anticipation: 
	The mentalist is constantly aware of the minds of the combatants 
around him, on a basic level, and as such can anticipate their moves and 
actions in combat. 
 
Telepathic Danger Sense: 
	This one may be obvious, but I have rarely actually seen it taken, 
regardless of how useful it can be.  The mentalist is aware of strong 
emotions and impulses around him or her, and as such has a very good chance 
of being aware of an impending attack upon him or herself or someone 
nearby, before it actually happens. 
 
Astral Travel: 
	Great for the mentalist who is otherwise something of a combat 
wuss, this little trick can allow for much better travel, often into 
hazardous areas and situations.  One could even posit that the mentalist 
wraps his or her whole body in flows from the Astral plane, going there 
physically, and thusly being able to come out physically wherever they 
reach.  Depending upon GMs, you might even be able to reduce or negate the 
needed Affects Real World advantage on your powers, on the basis that your 
desolid leaves you open to mental attacks plus one other SPX, and since you 
are not guarded against mental powers, your mental powers should not be so 
hard to make work on the real world.  See what the GM thinks of the Spirit 
rules (Hero Almanac 1, or Horror Hero).  Then buy extradimensional travel 
to the Astral, as well as your desolid. 
 
Mental Attacks: 
	Depending upon how dark of an image you want to have, for your team 
or your character, you might want to consider building your mental attacks 
the slightly more expensive way, to allow them the opportunity to do body 
damage, thusly frying the synapses in the brain, etc.  If doing damage 
isn't really your style, think about trying AOE selective target.  Either 
method can turn your average sniper mentalist into a combatant everyone 
gets to see, and most get to feel. 
 
 
Just some ideas.  Hope they help.  I have more, if you decide you want them. 
 
David Miller 
 
 
 
 
___________________________________________________________________________ 
| gold_phoenix@->   |There are 3 temporal dimensions, just as there are 3 | 
| ->cyberun.net     |spatial; T, the passage of time; Tau, the changes in | 
|-------------------|possible outcomes/decisions; Teh, the alternate bases| 
| E. David Miller   |of reality.  Thus, all that ever has been dreamed,   | 
|-------------------|IS, somewhen.  And somewhen, we are all simply a     | 
|Faith, and Dreams. |dream.  Or, by perspective, a nightmare.             | 
|___________________|_____________________________________________________| 
 
 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:15:03 -0600 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net 
Organization: Redbow Antiques 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Rook wrote: 
      Are you therefore saying multiply all current killing attack by 3? 
making them much more lethal (as fuzion does). Or making 1 kDC = 3 nDC? 
>  
>     As opposed to the current system of 1DC=1DC=1dn=5pts worth of killing attack (3DC=3DC=3dn=1dk) 
>  
>  Rook 
 
	Ummm...yeah. Of course there would have to be an increase in the 
characters Body. I just don't care that much for the current system. 
 
From: "\"John Desmarais\" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
        \"Michael Surbrook\"" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 97 14:17:23  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Art in GRG's Hero books 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:49:50 -0500 (EST), Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
> 
>>   You haven't seen his San Angelo illos yet. ;)  If I thought his work was 
>> substandard, I wouldn't have commissioned him to do stuff for SA. Wait 'till 
>> you see it. 
> 
><cough> No... but I have seen his stuff from Mystic Masters and Kingdom of 
>Champions, and I have always thought his material was pretty rotten. 
 
But that was almost a decade ago.  One would assume that he's improved since then. 
 
 
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:19:44 -0500 
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net> 
Subject: Dragon #100 Powers 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
These powers and skills were first published in Dragon Magazine #100, 
waaaaay back in 1985.  The acticle is by  Steven Maurer. 
 
News Skills 
 
Bouncing   5 for INT roll /  +1 for 2 
	This is the skill for finding structures in the inner city against which a 
character may bounce.  Scenery such as flagpoles and telephone wires can be 
found with a successful use of this skill.  An acrobatic roll is still 
necessary to bounce against the item or to keep from falling from it.  If 
the roll is made, the character may leap five times the normal distance 
allowed for the character's strength; characters with superleap add this 
extra distance to the end of their normal leap distance.  Bouncing is a 
favorite skill among street heros. 
 
Combat Luck   15 points per 1D6 
	Combat luck is just like normal Luck, except that it is three times as 
expensive and allows for three die rolls instead of one.  Unlike luck, 
Combat Luck works even when the character is winning in combat or in 
situations where the character doesn't need it.  Combat Luck is usually a 
manifestation of some other super power the character possesses; the 
characters are usually not just 'super lucky' .  An example of Combat Luck 
is a character blessed by some mystical power or who has a form of 
universal awareness of his surroundings. 
 
Extra Life    4 each 
	For every 4 permanent experience points, a character may buy an Extra 
Life.  An Extra Life is a one use 3d6 Luck roll that's assumed to come out 
all 6's.  Once used, an Extra Life disappears.  The experience that bouhgt 
it disappears too.    Extra Lives are a form of super hero insurance.  they 
allow characters hit with a mortal blow to somehow escape death, but they 
must be bought before needed. 
 
New Powers 
 
Domination  2D6 for 15 
	This EGO based attack is a combination of telepathy and mind control.  It 
allows the character to impose his his consciousness over a victim and take 
control  of the character's body.  The dice are tallied and applied against 
the target as noted below.  Each point of Ego Defense reduces the total 
before it is compared on the chart. 
 
Ego Mult.  	Domination Effect 
1x		No effect 
 
2x		The wielder can control the target's normal movements 	and use 		the 
senses they share in common.  The wielder must stand 		motionless but the 
target can perform a normal half move. 
 
3x		As above but the wielder can control the target's powers, 		including 
speach (The power of speach, which edition was this 		in? -- Mark's 
comments;)  that the two have in common.  The 		wielder must divide a full 
move between himself and the target. 
		Only one may attack. 
 
4x		As above but the wielder can control all the target's powers.   
		Both the wielder and the target may make a full move, but only  
		one may attack. 
 
	When one character dominates another, all skills the victim possesses are 
lost for as long as the Domination lasts.  The speed of the victim becomes 
that of the attacker.  A conscious victim may fight the domination by 
pushing ego defense. 
 
Enragement	5 per 1D6 
	This EGO based power is a specialized form of mind control combined with 
mental illusions.  It takes advantage of the violent tendencies that some 
characters have.  When an ego attack is successful, the wielder rolls the 
number of dice of Enragement and compares the total with the EGO of the 
target on the following table. 
 
EGO mult	Enragement Effect 
1x		Roll an EGO roll; upon failure, target rolls the most commonly 
occuring Berserk he has.  No effect if he has no berserk. 
 
2x		Roll the targets most common Berserk (no effect if the target has 		no 
Berserk). 
 
3x		Roll an ego rolll upon failure, target goes Berserk, with any 
		Berserk disadvantages. 
 
4x		Target goes Beserk. 
 
	The characters stays Berserk as long as END is paid.  If the wielder 
wishes to direct whom the Berserk character attacks, the results are 
shifted down one level on the table.  If the wielder is attacking a target 
who is easy to anger, the results are shifted one level up the chart.  When 
the wielder  stops paying END, the target comes out of being berserk if he 
has no berserk, otherwise he immediately tries to his normal recovery. 
This is not a nice power, and no one but villains will carry it. 
 
Power Healing	1D6 for 15 
 
	This works almost exactly like Aid, except there are other 'special' areas 
it can be applied to as follows. 
 
Special Damage		Cost 
Flash Blindness		3 per phase 
Mind Control			2 per point of control 
Weakness Found by Opponant	5 for every point Find Weakness Score was Exceeded 
Phase Being Stunned		5 for the phase 
Transformation 'Body'	2 per 'Body' 
Presence Shock		5 for every level 
 
Knockout    3 for +1 
	Knockout is a characteristic your character never knew he had.  Everytime 
a normal character is knocked to -10 stun, the character loses speed in 
recovery.  This is also true at -20, -30, and -40 Stun..  Each point of 
Knockout increases this base number of 10.  For example, a character with 
two levels of Knockout suffers lower recovery at -12, -24, -36, and -48 
STUN.  A character's total Knockout cannot be higher than the total Body he 
has. 
 
Slipperiness	3 per +1 
	Every 3 points this power gives 1 point of Entangle Defense.  Entangle 
Defense subtracts 1 from both the body and defense of any entangle thrown 
on the character.  Slipperiness also subtracts 1 from the body of the str 
roll of someone grabbing the character.  This power costs no END. 
 
Temporal Fugue	30 for base (11-)/+1 for 10 
	Temporal Fugue is also known as Replay.  It allows the character to replay 
past events and take a different action. , now that the character knows 
exactly what will happen.  To use Temporal Fugue, the character must roll 
the ability, minus the number of 1/2 pahse actions he wishes to reverse. 
If successful, the replay starts at that point.  You can only replay an 
event once. 
	Example:  In a battle, Orakle sees an agent leveling a blaster at her. 
Since he's just a nomral agent, she decides to depend upon him missing. 
But the agent shoots and hits.  BEFORE damage is rolled, Orakle uses her 
Temporal Fugue to undo his 1/2 pahse attack.    She rolls a (12-1=) 11; her 
attempt succeeds.  When the character levels his gun at her, she dives for 
cover.  Play resumes at that point.  the agent, seeing that Orakle just 
jumped behind some boxes, lobs a grenade at her.  Orakle, having already 
undone the attack phase once, cannot use her power again. 
	Referees may choose to extend the 1/2-pahse actions to include non-combat 
or simultaneous moves.  Thus an ambush could be considered one action for 
the purposes of Temporal Fugue.  The same goes for running down a blocked 
corridor.  Though it is a power, Temporal Fugue has all the limitations of 
a skill:  It cannot have any power advantages or limitations, and it can't 
be placed in a power framework.  Only Temporal Fugue levels add to the 
Temporal Fugue roll.  It is a no phase action and costs END. 
 
Vertigo	5 points for 1D6 
	This EGO based power is a specialization of Mental Illusions.  It works by 
disrupting the perception centers of the brain, causing the victim to lose 
all sense of balance.  This has several effects as shown below. 
 
Ego Mult	Vertigo Effects 
1x		The target takes a -1 OCV, DCV, and DEX rolls (Including all 
		Dex based skills). 
 
2x		Target takes a -3 to OCV, DCV, and DEX rolls.  A DEX roll must be 
made to control flight or the target falls (Optionally having 
		uncertainty about location). 
 
3x		As per 2x above, and Target OCV on all ranged attacks drops to 		zero. 
The target's control of light illusions and mental 		illusions is lost.  A 
DEX roll must be made to control any 		movement. 
 
4x		As per 3x above, and the target is unable to stand.  OCV and DCV 		is 
zero.  the target is blinded. 
 
	Ego Defense applies against a Vertigo Attack.  The effects remain as long 
as the attacker keeps paying END. 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:30:17 -0600 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net 
Organization: Redbow Antiques 
Subject: Re: Champions 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
>  
>   I'm afraid I cannot address any more comments regarding a 5th >Edition. It seems I misspoke earlier. I welcome your comments about >what you'd like to see in future Hero System products from Gold Rush >Games, however. 
 
	Understood and don't worry. As long as the Hero systems last...which I 
hope will be a looooooong looooong time. There will always be talk of 
the next edition. But if it gets done...from what I have seen I hope you 
get to do it. 
 
X-Sender: shelley@mail.mactyre.net 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 06:32:34 -0800 
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net> 
Subject: PRIMUS Sourcebook 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:07 AM 12/16/97 -0800, Rook wrote: 
>    Are you also downgrading the power level of them? 
>The stuff you have on your website is very potent. But then I suspect that's 
>only because it was made for a game where the PC's come in at 400 points (or 
>was it 300?). 
 
The neat aspect of PRIMUS is that there are many different power levels at 
work.  Intelligence agents are normals, assault agents are agents with 
equipment who rarely take more than a pot shot to go down -- hey, they're 
normal guys who've had a Cyberline cocktail!  Iron Guard are battlesuits 
(normal guys in powered armor) and Avengers are of the power level of 
moderate PCs. I suspect you're paying more attention point totals than to 
power level; Avengers are experienced and skilled and as we discussed 
earlier, that can be expensive.   
 
PRIMUS can be as tough (or not) as you need them to be -- if you don't want 
Avengers running around, don't use them.  If you want more, add them.  If 
you're asking if I'm using the equipment that's posted online, the answer 
to that is no, I'll be using numbers geared towards a 250 point campaign. 
Also, remember that I mentioned that it's not campaign specific.  Most GMs 
tend to adjust power levels from sourcebooks (heavens, can't think of the 
last time I used anything straight from a book!) ; PRIMUS is designed to 
make that even easier. 
 
It is my opinion that in a world where there are superheroes, the 
government will want some that can compete with the bad guys.  Otherwise, 
what's the point? And you know, they keep that green kryptonite laser in 
the basement...just in case. <g> 
 
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre 
www.mactyre.net 
 
Your children will see the stars. 
--Robert A. Heinlein 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:34:21 -0600 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net 
Organization: Redbow Antiques 
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition - Killing Attacks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Scott Nolan wrote: 
>  
> I've always wondered why Killing Damage costs no more than Normal 
> Damage, when it is so clearly more effective (it is not stopped by 
> non-resistant defenses). 
>  
> Why not simply make "Killing" an advantage on normal damage? 
> Say...+1/2? I figure that many purists'd go for +1/4 or more likely 
> just say no, but I truly think that Killing is deadly enough to 
> warrant a +1/2 advantage. 
>  
> Could I hear some thoughts on this, please? 
 
	Maybe I don't understand you. 1d6k=15 points and 1d6 normal=5 pt's so 
Killing does cost more than normal. 
	I aggree with the idea of just normal damage and making Killing be an 
advantage. However I like the way the cost is set up now. Therefore it 
should be a +2 advantage. 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:42:07 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: How do I buy these abilites?? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Filksinger wrote: 
 
> On Wednesday, December 10, 1997 6:06 AM, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>  
>  
> <snip> 
> >For (b), I would built it as FTL, with the "only on energy currents" 
> >limitation, and an advantage that it can work in an atmosphere. This 
> >advantage isn't exactly orthodox; I tend to make up advantages 
> without the 
> >sanction of the rules. It should also be linked to Desolid. 
> > 
> >The alternative is to build it as a Teleport. Many people feel this 
> is 
> >more legitimate, though I don't know why ignoring the description of 
> >teleport as travel between points without crossing the intervening 
> space 
> >is any more legitimate than ignoring the restriction that FTL doesn't 
> work 
> >in an atmosphere. 
>  
>  
> While I don't necessarily disagree, there is a specific reason why the 
> second is legitimate and the first is not. The first a) does something 
> specifically forbidden, and b) creates a new Advantage. The second a) 
> changes the power in a way not forbidden, and b) creates a new 
> Limitation. New Limitations are strictly kosher; new advantages are 
> not. 
> 
 
Good point. (I still don't like it for the other reasons I cited, though.) 
  
> >Actually, I never liked that blanket ruling on FTL. The fact of the 
> matter 
> >is that people do travel FTL (or at least lightspeed) within the 
> >atmosphere in comics, and a superhero game should have a mechanism 
> for 
> >doing so. As your example indicates, it need not be unbalancing to 
> game 
> >play. 
>  
> Except that it is a much cheaper way to buy Teleportation, and with 
> much greater range as well. By duplicating an existing power _and_ 
> making it much cheaper to boot, you are violating at least two basic 
> rules for creating new constructs: don't duplicate existing Powers, 
> and if two ways of doing something exist, the more expensive one is 
> probably the way to go. 
>  
> By using Desolidification and FTL, you are _precisely_ duplicating 
> Teleportation. You are more cheaply creating _exactly_ a power that 
> _already exists_. 
>  
 
I agree this is pretty questionable, for the reasons you give. At the risk 
of being pedantic, though, I'd disagree that Desolid FTL _exactly_ 
duplicates Teleportation; different things (like Affects Desolid defenses) 
stop it. This leaves a mechanism for being stopped or attacked along the 
way, perhaps even by someone moving at the same speed, while Teleport has 
no real capacity for that. (Of course, the GM could always fudge something 
for those limited Teleports.) 
 
 
> OTOH, I definitely _do_ want a much cheaper way of traveling long 
> distances, with Flight or Teleportation. 
>  
 
I'm glad we agree on that. It seems like with a little tinkering, all 
these problems could be solved. 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:46:11 -0500 (EST) 
From: dq831@freenet.carleton.ca (Jamie Rosen) 
Subject: Re: Green Hornet conversion 
Reply-To: dq831@freenet.carleton.ca 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> 
>Any other old-radio fans on the list?   I'm working on converting the 
>radio/movie serial version of the Green Hornet to Hero System, and have 
>hit a couple snags: 
> 
>1.  I know the Black Beauty routinely outran cop cars, but did they ever 
>decide just how fast it went?  Also, in the serials it had better 
>cornering than many other cars, what would be the best way to handle 
>that? 
 
Combat Driving, OAF Vehicular? 
 
>2.  The gas gun.  The example of a gas attack in the rulebook is NND, 
>defense Life Support or holding breath.  So far, I haven't found a single 
>time when someone was able to hold their breath and avoid passing out 
>from the Hornet's gas, so NND wouldn't be appropriate here.  Would AVLD, 
>defense Life Support work, or should I bite the bullet and make it one 
>heck of a STUN Drain? 
 
Well, how you could say thta he just never ran into crooks who thought of 
holding their breath, but that feels like a copout.  Maybe NND, defense LS 
or no exposed skin, and say it's not just a gas but a contact agent? 
 
>3.  An obvious disad for the Hornet is Reputation 14-.  However, in his 
>Secret ID Britt Reid is (locally) famous -- noted newspaper publisher, 
>wealthy, seen in all the best clubs.  I have several radio episodes on 
>tape with some version of  "I can't visit him as the Hornet, he knows me 
>as Britt Reid and might recognize me" in the dialogue.  Buying Reputation 
>twice, once for Reid's reputation and once for the Hornet's, feels like 
>cheating.  Would it be legit to buy Reputation once and have two 
>different definitions of what the Reputation is? 
 
One rep, two definitions seems to be the standard practice.  I cant;t 
remember what books I've seen it in, but I know I just encountered it 
recently. 
 
-- 
Jamie Rosen - author, bad seed, and layabout on rec.arts.comics.creative 
------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Mistake is just experience in the present tense. 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:46:27 -0600 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net 
Organization: Redbow Antiques 
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Mark @ GRG wrote: 
> I can niether confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning 
> stages. I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic. 
 
	I used to be in the U.S. Navy and I was always asked if we carried 
nuclear weopons on our ships and my line was: 
		I can neither confirm or deny the presence of nuclear 
		weapons on board a United States Vessel. 
	 
	Of course, when I winked it usually gave it away. How about winking 
Mark;) 
	 
 
Seriously I understand where your coming from. 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:49:50 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Art in GRG's Hero books 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
>   You haven't seen his San Angelo illos yet. ;)  If I thought his work was 
> substandard, I wouldn't have commissioned him to do stuff for SA. Wait 'till 
> you see it. 
 
<cough> No... but I have seen his stuff from Mystic Masters and Kingdom of 
Champions, and I have always thought his material was pretty rotten. 
  
>   We've also recently contracted with a new artist to do the illo of the new 
> PART armor for the upcoming PART sourcebook. 
 
And based on our discussion from a few days ago, I'm keeping my finger 
crossed! 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net (Mike Lehmann) 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 06:51:01 -0800 
Organization: Terminal BBS  (403)327-9731 
Subject: 5th Edition Hero: Suggestions (not long :) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I'm not going to bombard the list with my own house rules, but instead  
offer the site where they can be found so they can perused by those who  
might care... <g> 
 
http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html 
 
I'm still working on more rules, and I assure you that some of these  
recent suggestions will definitely be going in there... 
 
GM: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net                    | Justice Krewe 
Web: http://www.dfw.net/~aronhead/justice_krewe.html  | The Illuminators 
Short waiting list for new players                    | Enigma Watch 
Lurkers welcome (Write to me!)                        | KnightWatch 
 
... What we DON'T need is more laws! 
~~~ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR] 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Internet: mike.lehmann@mail.terminal.net  <<<<<<<<<<< 
The TERMINAL BBS                                            Fidonet; 1:358/17 
Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada                                          1:358/18 
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:57:54 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Tokyo Mark wrote: 
 
> > >Okay, for acrobatics in a fight: Jackie Chan vs Ken Lo in Drunken Master 
> > >II! 
> > > 
> > Say, how would one do drunken fighting, anyway?  I know there's a section 
> > on it in Ninja Hero, under Kung Fu, and they list -2 OCV/DCV later in NH, 
> > but... 
> > Drunken Fighters get *better* when they are drunk, right?  So, CSL, only 
> > when drunk? 
 
Whoa!  'Drunken Fighting' doesn't require that the character gets drunk! 
It is a style meant to simulate the erratic movements of someone who is 
drunk.  A drunken fighter doesn't have to drink anything to fight.  Now, 
it is a typical schtick in a few movies that the drunken fighter sucks 
down some wine, gets sloshed and becomes unbeatable.  Or as the quote 
goes: 
 
"I seldom drink wine becuase I can't stop giving heavy punches if I get 
drunk!" 
  
> I think it could vary.  In Drunken Master II Jackie's Drunken Style is 
> called weak unless he has been drinking.  If he gets too drunk he 
> can't fight though. 
 
Actually, no, if he gets 'really' drunk (off strong drink or industrial 
alcohol) he becomes almost unbeatable.  (super strength, resistance to 
damage, extra skill levels...) 
  
> I'd say skill levels with limitations.  Probably damage reduction with 
> limitations and maybe even a damage class or two with limitations.   
 
All valid suggestions for a cinematic drunken fighter. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:58:31 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << Then such a ruling had better be clearly stated in the text for the 
> skill.>> 
>  
>   It's not a ruling, people, it's a *sugegstion*. 
 
<shrug> Okay Mark, can you tell I didn't like it?  ^_^ 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:00:03 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
<Hero System 5th Edition?> 
 
>   I can niether confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning 
> stages. ::Sigh:: I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic. 
 
Heh, gee Mark, with a comment like that I'd think you lived out here near 
the Capital, and not on the West Coast!  ^_^ 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:03:21 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Champions 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << Well that just wet farts outta dead monkey's... >> 
>  
>   <LOL> Now THAT'S a descriptive if I ever read one! 
 
Yeah, well it woud have been even funnier if I had been awake enough (and 
calm) to remember the word 'sucks'.  ^_^ 
  
> << You trying to tell me that Steve P and co over at Hero are getting all hot 
> and bothered that you want to improve on something they have effectivly 
> abandoned? >> 
>  
>   No, that is definitely NOT what I am trying to tell you. 
 
Okay, should I be reading between the lines then? 
  
> << Doesn't that just beat all. >> 
>  
>   No, it doesn't, because you have misinterpreted my message. **Don't** read 
> anything into this, folks. Do NOT let yourselves become all doom and gloomy 
> again! You were so HAPPY for a spell. Please continue this thought process! 
> All is not lost! 
 
Find the Hero that resides within you all! 
  
(sorry, slipped into Mirth mode for a moment.) 
 
Well, based on that comment, I'll try and keep my hopes up that certain 
nameless people (but we all know who they are) show some common sense... 
 
> << Unless of course, Hero is planing on actually doing a 5th Edition (HAH!). 
>  
>   I can neither confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning 
> stages. ::Sigh:: I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic. 
 
Hmm... someone's using 'cut-and'paste' for thier e-mail now, I see.  ^_^ 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:03:25 -0500 
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net> 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>> I think it could vary.  In Drunken Master II Jackie's Drunken Style is 
>> called weak unless he has been drinking.  If he gets too drunk he 
>> can't fight though. 
> 
>Actually, no, if he gets 'really' drunk (off strong drink or industrial 
>alcohol) he becomes almost unbeatable.  (super strength, resistance to 
>damage, extra skill levels...) 
>  
 
Well, in Drunken Master II, Jackie Chan gets beaten up badly in middle of 
the movie while totally drunk.  I forget if it is his father or his master 
who comments that drinking past a point renders him unable to fight.  What 
that point is, who knows.  He certainly sucks down the industrial grade 
alcohol at the end and fights great:). 
 
TokyoMark 
 
 
 
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:03:25 -0500 
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net> 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>> I think it could vary.  In Drunken Master II Jackie's Drunken Style is 
>> called weak unless he has been drinking.  If he gets too drunk he 
>> can't fight though. 
> 
>Actually, no, if he gets 'really' drunk (off strong drink or industrial 
>alcohol) he becomes almost unbeatable.  (super strength, resistance to 
>damage, extra skill levels...) 
>  
 
Well, in Drunken Master II, Jackie Chan gets beaten up badly in middle of 
the movie while totally drunk.  I forget if it is his father or his master 
who comments that drinking past a point renders him unable to fight.  What 
that point is, who knows.  He certainly sucks down the industrial grade 
alcohol at the end and fights great:). 
 
TokyoMark 
 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 07:19:16 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:07 AM 12/15/97 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>>   - Extra Time should specify whether the time listed is including or in 
>>addition to the half-phase needed to launch an attack with a Power. 
> 
>And should probably be the latter.  After all, if I make a power "Extra 
>Time: Full Phase", then include the attack time, I'm really only spending a 
>-half- Phase to activate it. 
> 
>Add "Extra Time: 1/2 Phase" (aka "Full Phase Action") for -1/4. 
 
   I could live with that.   :-] 
 
>>   - Dependence should have a variation for Addiction.  Also, the number of 
>>dice should go on forever. 
> 
>Actually, it's not that hard to make Dependences work for Addictions.  Buy 
>it as normal, and treat the "attack" of each +1d6 as +2d6 Mind Control: Do 
>The Drug. 
 
   It should probably also be Cumulative.  And while this works for the 
psychological addition, there are often physical side effects as well. 
   Whether it's a change in the Disadvantage or a description of how to do 
it, though, something should be spelled out. 
 
>>   - Reputation should have modifiers for limited group -- say, -5 for a 
>>small group, +0 for a large group, +5 for the public at large. 
> 
>It might also include a halving element (such as Watched or Enraged) if the 
>Reputation is primarily positive.  Maybe. 
 
   I think that this is definitely a good idea.  Either x1/2, or -5 points. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:19:50 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Golden Age hero art 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << I still say that Madame Moonlight has one of the best costume designs in 
> all of the Champions books.>> 
>  
>   I'm going to have to go back and look at that again... 
 
It's a nice peice of work (Chris's best in the book).  Other good costumes 
would be: 
 
Nightwind (Watchers) 
General Hseng (Watchers) 
Scorpia (Classic Enemies) 
St Peter's Star (Classic Organizations) 
Merry Andrew (Classic Organizations) - stupid group, kinda stupid 
character - cool outfit, very Batman theme villian-looking. 
 
Hmm... there are a lot of other, nice looking costumes, but these are some 
of the best designs.  I also don't own some of the books that I felt had 
really nice character art (and thus, pretty good costume designs). 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 07:21:42 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Transforms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:16 PM 12/15/97 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Rook wrote: 
> 
>Re: Transform 
> 
>> > I can think of things which reduce costs that should be Minor (blinding, 
>> > for example). Also, the rule about "no point increases" desperately needs 
>> > to be reinstated. 
>>  
>>     If it was reinstated, how would you do the special effect of the ray 
gun 
>> ordiety that grants powers/turns normals into mutants, etc... 
> 
>Transform linked to Aid. If all you're doing is adding Powers, then 
>arguably Aid alone would work. Alternately, if you assume the people 
>being transformed are "game irrelevant", you can just use Summon. 
 
   I could deal with that Transform linked to Aid, at least for Major 
Transforms whose alterations exceeded the limits. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:26:02 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, TokyoMark wrote: 
 
> >> I think it could vary.  In Drunken Master II Jackie's Drunken Style is 
> >> called weak unless he has been drinking.  If he gets too drunk he 
> >> can't fight though. 
> > 
> >Actually, no, if he gets 'really' drunk (off strong drink or industrial 
> >alcohol) he becomes almost unbeatable.  (super strength, resistance to 
> >damage, extra skill levels...) 
>  
> Well, in Drunken Master II, Jackie Chan gets beaten up badly in middle of 
> the movie while totally drunk.  I forget if it is his father or his master 
> who comments that drinking past a point renders him unable to fight.  What 
> that point is, who knows.  He certainly sucks down the industrial grade 
> alcohol at the end and fights great:). 
 
Oh yeah, I forgot about that scene.  Also note that once he stopped 
fighting in the market (after rescuing his mother's stolen purse) the 
alcohol kicked in *hard* turning him into an incoherant idiot. 
 
I would have to guess the comment about driniking too much ould have come 
from the first movie, since his father doesn't say anything like that in 
the second (that I can tell, some of the sub-titles on mine are washed 
out, the old white text on white clothing curse). 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:28:44 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Green Hornet conversion 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Leah L Watts wrote: 
 
> 3.  An obvious disad for the Hornet is Reputation 14-.  However, in his 
> Secret ID Britt Reid is (locally) famous -- noted newspaper publisher, 
> wealthy, seen in all the best clubs.  I have several radio episodes on 
> tape with some version of  "I can't visit him as the Hornet, he knows me 
> as Britt Reid and might recognize me" in the dialogue.  Buying Reputation 
> twice, once for Reid's reputation and once for the Hornet's, feels like 
> cheating.  Would it be legit to buy Reputation once and have two 
> different definitions of what the Reputation is? 
 
Actually, you could put it down as both SID  and Public ID.  The Green 
Hornet has the SID of Britt Reid, while Britt has the problem of being 
*very* well known in the local area.  People know him on sight, know where 
he works, etc.  Batman should almost get something like this, as well as 
Tony Stark. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 07:42:33 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:41 PM 12/15/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>>    - Force Field and Force Wall should have Flash Defense, Mental Defense, 
>> and Power Defense methods built right in. 
> 
> Sure.  See USM for examples, but basically put that right into the 
>core rules. 
 
   I don't have USM, and if I had I wouldn't have listed this.  Part of my 
main recommendation is to include most or all of the rules from Ultimate 
books, Dark Champs books, and Atlantis, with a few from the HSAs. 
 
>>    - Hand-to-Hand Attack should *not* be omitted; this would leave us with 
>> the old kludge of "+X STR, Only for Damage."  Use Opal's version instead. 
> 
> Look at the version in Hero's Digital Hero instead.  I expect this 
>is what we'll be seeing in any new version.  Oh, and note the KA option as 
>well; I'd expect KA to just be an advantage on normal attacks. 
 
   I've seen that one.  It's not bad, but I like Opal's better. 
 
>>    - Instant Change should be scaled.  (My scale is 5 pts = instant, 4 pts 
>> = half Phase, 3 pts = Phase, 2 pts = Turn, 1 pt = minute, normal = 5 
>> minutes, with all costs doubled for "any clothing.") 
> 
> How long does it take to change in the first place?  And this 
>could be simulated with the "Extra Time" lim. 
 
   Officially, I think it takes a full Phase to change clothes.  I don't 
like this; ask any SNL cast member how long it takes for a costume change 
with help from two people.  I put it here as 5 minutes. 
   And I stand corrected, from all the people who've pointed it out; 
Instant Change at more than truly Instant is unusual enough that it should 
take "Extra Time." 
 
>>    - Life Support should have some of its elements able to be broken down 
>> even further, like 2 points for being immune to *either* heat *or* cold. 
>> Also, 1-2 points for retarded aging is a cool idea. 
> 
> Like I pointed out, work in something like Weapon Familiarities. 
 
   That's basically how I'm doing it here (in the more detailed write-up I 
have on disk somewhere), except that I refer to them as "discrete elements." 
 
>Also, add a LS: Does not die for something like 10 pts.  A somewhat major 
>ability with almost no combat importance.  This is not something that 
>should cost 20, 30, 40, or more points, as some of the list's writeups 
>have done. 
 
   I'm not sure that even 10 points is too expensive. 
 
>>    - Swinging should be specifically described as movement per Phase, not 
>> movement per swing. 
> 
> Never noticed, but that does lead to possible abuse, doesn't it? 
 
   Mostly misunderstanding.  I think it was Phil Masters (love that writer) 
in Kingdom of Champions that said that more rural areas wouldn't have the 
tall buildings needed to go swinging.  Spider-Man should be able to swing 
just fine in a typical downtown area or rural neighborhood, if he were to 
swing from the telephone poles.  An individual swing would be shorter, but 
he should still get around with no worse than relatively minor penalty. 
 
>>    - Armor Piercing should be purchasable so that it can do more than just 
>> halve the target's defenses.  However, I do see why this was stopped in 4th 
>> ed.  I'd recommend charging an extra +1/4 for each level higher that the 
>> Armor Piercing can go (+1 1/4 to quarter defenses, +2 1/4 to reduce to 
>> one-eighth, etc.). 
> 
> Nope.  This is too easily abusable.  Keep it as it is in 4th ed. 
 
   You know how much of an Energy Blast I could get in a campaign with a 60 
Active Point limit that would cut your defenses to one-eighth?  3 1/2d6. 
Or a 1d6 Killing Attack.  Not real threatening, and only occasionally useful. 
 
>>    - Explosion should be +3/4 so it doesn't cost the same as AE: One Hex. 
>> (The old method of making AE: One Hex cost +1/4 wouldn't work, because then 
>> it would hit the proverbial floor if it's Nonselective.)  The Selective 
>> Target and Nonselective Target options for AE should also be available. 
> 
> We also need a way to increase the increased radius for expl at a 
>faster rate.  As it is, a AE is quickly more effective. 
 
   Agreed.  If someone could do the math on how AE's +1/4 Advantage to a 
+3/4 Explosion compares to equivalent Advantage levels of AE, I'd be very 
interested. 
 
>>    - Reputation should have modifiers for limited group -- say, -5 for a 
>> small group, +0 for a large group, +5 for the public at large. 
> 
> See . . . UMA maybe?  Or was it Dark Champions. 
 
   Dark Champions has a discussion of it, giving only -5 for Limited Group. 
 Here I break it down a little further, and ask for its addition to the 
core rules. 
--- 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 07:44:35 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:35 AM 12/16/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< - Interrogation should not *necessarily* be violent.  ...an attorney can 
>use Interrogation to prompt a witness that she doesn't think is telling the 
>truth ("Need I remind you of the penalties for perjury?" and such).  Either 
>that, or there should be a different Skill for this. >> 
> 
>  How about Conversation? 
> 
>  "This PRE-based Skill allows the character to extract information from 
>people with careful conversation. ...if the Skill is properly performed, the 
>victim won't be awarte he has divulged anything." 
> 
>  Sounds like typical courtroom drama to me! <LOL> 
 
   Same scene, different approach. 
   The point someone made about Persuasion is a good one, but (dare I say 
it?) not quite persuasive. 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 07:49:29 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:10 PM 12/15/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>>   - Interrogation should not *necessarily* be violent.  In my 
>campaign, an 
>>attorney can use Interrogation to prompt a witness that she doesn't 
>think 
>>is telling the truth ("Need I remind you of the penalties for 
>perjury?" and 
>>such).  Either that, or there should be a different Skill for this. 
> 
>I agree. Even the standard Interrogation need not include actual 
>torture. A friend of mine who was a prisoner-of-war interrogator 
>during Viet Nam used to tell me how you could break a person, without 
>ever violating the Geneva Convention. _None_ of the techniques 
>mentioned involved actual torture, in the physical sense. 
 
   I saw a movie once where a man was tortured for information in a rather 
unique manner.  They tickled him. 
   (Someone has *got* to come up with some tickling rules for Hero...) 
 
>>   - Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb.  My own 
>>structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for lesser 
>utility 
>>(3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single 
>tentacle 
>>or prehensile tail). 
> 
>I'm split on this one. Extra Limbs doesn't add enough to be worth 
>this, and I don't want that to change. However, I never liked the 
>unlimited number of limbs rule, either. 
> 
>How about a x2 limbs for a low cost? This would allow squids, hundred 
>armed giants, etc, without costing excessively. 
 
   That's my modified proposal.  I haven't seen any responses to it, though. 
 
>>   - Transform should be more specifically described as well, 
>especially in 
>>terms of what constitutes Cosmetic, Minor, and Major Transforms.  (I 
>tend 
>>to go with this:  if it doesn't affect the character sheet, it's 
>Cosmetic; 
>>if it shifts points around on the sheet or alters specific Powers but 
>>doesn't change the totals, it's Minor; if it changes point totals, 
>it's 
>>Major.) 
> 
>I like this. Add an additional level to Transform, for Transformations 
>that are _extremely_ beneficial to the attacker. "Turn human into 
>frog" shouldn't cost the same as "Turn human into my willing slave". 
 
   Actually, I think it should, but that's just my taste. 
   (Or you could make the "willing slave" Transform BOECV.) 
 
>>   - Explosion should be +3/4 so it doesn't cost the same as AE: One 
>Hex. 
>>(The old method of making AE: One Hex cost +1/4 wouldn't work, 
>because then 
>>it would hit the proverbial floor if it's Nonselective.)  The 
>Selective 
>>Target and Nonselective Target options for AE should also be 
>available. 
> 
>Agree about the Selective and Non-selective, but not the Advantage's 
>value. The ability to hit one hex but not the one next to it is 
>roughly equivallent to the ability to create an explosive effect. One 
>is good for agents, the other good for villains near normals or 
>explosives. 
 
   I tend to rail at the idea of charging points for what the Power 
*doesn't* do (Personal Immunity being an exception). 
--- 
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From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com> 
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions) 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 9:52:45 CST 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> << Seriously, the fact that there won't be one (they say...) doesn't mean that 
> we shouldn't talk about how the current game could be better. >> 
>  
>   I can niether confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning 
> stages. I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic. 
 
Ok - I understand your (Mark's) position here - he's not in the driver's 
seat here.  But HERO Games: 
 
1.	"We don't expect players happy with Champions to switch to 
	Fuzion." 
2.	"We don't plan on doing a 5th edition at this time". 
3.	"We are not going to stop supporting 4th edition". 
4.	"Any future CHAMPIONS material will be released through 
	HERO PLUS". 
 
HERO Guys:  Please stop leading us around.  If the evolution of HERO 
System ended with 4th edition, please say so.  If in fact a fifth 
edition being produced is even a remote possibility, please say so. 
 
I run a 400+ attendee game convention in Champaign, IL.  Fact is, this 
year is the first year in a long time that we don't have any Champions 
games (except for the Saturday Morning Rumble, but that's not roleplay, 
that's king of the hill combat).  People think the game is gone. 
When I tried to get support for Champions for last February's con, 
neither R. Talsorian or HERO responded (but Atlas Games did, bless  
them, but they're gone now too).  Perhaps Gold Rush Games might,  
but apparently they weren't on our GAMA contact list (thanks GAMA). 
 
This mailing list is a gathering of the faithful.  Either tell us to 
follow the one true way over to Fuzion (in which case, I'm gone -  
I still can't figure out the rule of X, and please DON'T e-mail me 
explaining it to me), or tell us there's something to stay here for. 
 
HERO Plus sucks (the ONLY new item I've seen is Ultimate Super Mage, 
and I'd rather convert to GURPS Supers than use that).  You didn't  
even try to produce a Star HERO 4th ed. book, even though the interest 
was there, and the existing Fantasy HERO stuff doesn't work at all  
with my 600 pt. character high fantasy game (I'd never seen Fantasy 
HERO before, so I just converted my AD&D game over to Champions...). 
 
Anyway, the Steves, Bruce and anyone else associated with HERO Games, 
can you be up front with us?  Either tell us the patient is dead, or 
alive, but take him off the artificial life support. 
 
We've got a good group of gamers up here in Champaign, and HERO used 
to be the game of choice.  But in the last two years, everyone's left 
that game but six of us, and to be honest, even the rats have left. 
 
 
Frustrated, 
 
DonM. 
-- 
========================================================================= 
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist,              (217) 239-8365 =  
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL     dmckinne@cmi.csc.com = 
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 = 
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org    (217) 469-9917 =  
========================================================================= 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:00:14 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Ed Cover 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 04:57 PM 12/15/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>On the original Champions Autoduel by Steve Jackson games, the cover 
>showed a superhero holding a car over his head. A man in the car 
>leaned out the window, bouncing bullets off his chest. Behind the 
>hero, another car was racing towards his back. 
> 
>Inside the book was a picture of a car, a superhero lying on his back 
>on the hood, and another car upside down on top of him, and three 
>thought bubbles- "I shouldn't have done that...." 
> 
>I always liked that picture.<BEG> 
 
   I my copy of Autoduel Champions, it's "Maybe that wasn't such a good 
idea..." 
   But the point is still good.   :-] 
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:09:13 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Green Hornet conversion 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Leah L Watts wrote: 
 
> 1.  I know the Black Beauty routinely outran cop cars, but did they ever 
> decide just how fast it went?  Also, in the serials it had better 
> cornering than many other cars, what would be the best way to handle 
> that? 
>  
Levels with movement are the best way to do cornering. 
 
> 2.  The gas gun.  The example of a gas attack in the rulebook is NND, 
> defense Life Support or holding breath.  So far, I haven't found a single 
> time when someone was able to hold their breath and avoid passing out 
> from the Hornet's gas, so NND wouldn't be appropriate here.  Would AVLD, 
> defense Life Support work, or should I bite the bullet and make it one 
> heck of a STUN Drain? 
 
I'd consider NND vs. Life Support to be a valid construction, even if most 
gas attacks are built with holding breath as an additional defense. 
Self-contained breathing is certainly a more common defense than some of 
the other usual NND defenses. 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:12:05 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Green Hornet conversion 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:05 AM 12/16/97 EST, Leah L Watts wrote: 
>2.  The gas gun.  The example of a gas attack in the rulebook is NND, 
>defense Life Support or holding breath.  So far, I haven't found a single 
>time when someone was able to hold their breath and avoid passing out 
>from the Hornet's gas, so NND wouldn't be appropriate here.  Would AVLD, 
>defense Life Support work, or should I bite the bullet and make it one 
>heck of a STUN Drain? 
 
   Take the NND.  Just because nobody ever thought of holding his breath 
doesn't mean it couldn't be done. 
 
>3.  An obvious disad for the Hornet is Reputation 14-.  However, in his 
>Secret ID Britt Reid is (locally) famous -- noted newspaper publisher, 
>wealthy, seen in all the best clubs.  I have several radio episodes on 
>tape with some version of  "I can't visit him as the Hornet, he knows me 
>as Britt Reid and might recognize me" in the dialogue.  Buying Reputation 
>twice, once for Reid's reputation and once for the Hornet's, feels like 
>cheating.  Would it be legit to buy Reputation once and have two 
>different definitions of what the Reputation is? 
 
   I say go ahead and get two Reps.  Or, even though that might seem to be 
no less cheating, give him both Secret ID and Public ID. 
--- 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:22:06 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Message Numbers 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:13 PM 12/16/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote: 
>-- A query to those who have been here the longest. 
> 
> Does the message count here go down over Christmas?  I'm going  
>away for a little over two weeks soon and I would like to know when I get  
>back, will the message count be over or under 3000? 
 
   At this rate, darned close one way or the other. 
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:22:45 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: 5th edition, contd 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Christopher Taylor wrote: 
>  
> > SIDE EFFECTS: At the present cost, very low power effects are severely 
> > punished by this advantage.  Thus, the chart is slightly different: 
> >  
> > 			-1/4   ½ the power level, minimum 20 PTS 
> > 			-1/2   equal to power level, minimum 50 PTS 
>  
> I was wondering about a variation on Side Effects, where the power affects 
> not the character but his environment.  For example, you crank up your 
> mega-chi Aid and create a minor shockwave centered on your person.  People 
> get knocked over, your surroundings get wrecked, etc. 
>  
 
It might be handy to expand this even further to include "Undesirable 
Effects." Various effects can be built as powers, but are generally 
disadvantages. For example, someone a few weeks back wanted to build an 
empath who would involuntarily "leak" emotions to bystanders. Or how about 
a healing spell that puts the subject into a deep sleep? Or an attack that 
injures the target but confers some minor special ability? I generally end 
up building these things as Power Limitations or as Physical Limitations, 
but a lot of the time they need the Power write-up as well. 
 
This one would have to be watched carefully, of course, as what 
constitutes a disadvantage depends a lot on the personality and methods of 
the character involved.  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 16 Dec 1997 11:23:37 -0500 
Lines: 28 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes: 
 
JD> Now, you *could*, I suppose, fire them both at the same *very close* 
JD> target, but then you get hit with the "grenade" damage as well. 
 
I did not say that it would be *useful*, only possible to fire both 
simultaneously. 
 
'Course, if you are running a game in which much firing of large weapons is 
the norm, then you could. :) 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:23:55 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart! 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:32 AM 12/16/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< I meant, of course, that it has to *weight* several factors. Oi! I need to 
>get more sleep! >> 
> 
>  Apparently I still didn't get enough sleep. Let's try this again -- it has 
>to WEIGH several factors, not *weight* several factors. Boy, oh boy... 
> 
>  And I call myself an *editor*? 
 
   Will jest halve two weight four the book two cum aught. 
--- 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:23:55 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart! 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:32 AM 12/16/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< I meant, of course, that it has to *weight* several factors. Oi! I need to 
>get more sleep! >> 
> 
>  Apparently I still didn't get enough sleep. Let's try this again -- it has 
>to WEIGH several factors, not *weight* several factors. Boy, oh boy... 
> 
>  And I call myself an *editor*? 
 
   Will jest halve two weight four the book two cum aught. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 16 Dec 1997 11:26:24 -0500 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
BG>    But if I put the "Linked" Limitation on that exact same Flash, then I 
BG> can use the EB without it, right?  Or am I missing something here? 
 
What you are missing is putting the Flash outside of the Framework. 
 
Yeah, it is kind of wonky.  The Linked Limitation needs to be completely 
overhauled for consistancy's sake. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:28:21 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: GRG:  San Angelo, 5th Edition, and my Game Store... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Just finished reading San Angelo (downloaded), and I must say I'm impressed.  
 I can't wait until it comes out.  I love the idea of the Flux.  It is  
something I would gladly welcome.  I've used magic as the source of all  
power in some campaigns, but it falls apart every now and then.  I just  
don't understand why you want San Angelo to be apart from the Champions  
Universe.  I know, I can do whatever I want, and I will be basing it in the  
Champions Universe.  I'm thinking San Angelo being my 4 color campaign and  
Hudson City being nearby for the Dark Champions, if you don't mind, sort of  
Metropolis and Gotham.  Well, just my two cents worth here, but I've already  
placed an order for San Angelo at the place that doesn't believe anything  
new comes out for Champions.  Sigh.   
 
Actually, if you did produce a 5th Edition book tomorrow, 6th Edition would  
be discussed on the list tomorrow night :)  Besides, if you fixed all the  
rules that people wanted, what would this list have to argue about lol.   
Seriously, you may not be at liberty to discuss 5th Edition but keep an ear  
open to suggestions, just in case.  It sounds like you have the right ideas  
and as someone else said, if someone were going to produce 5th Edition, you  
sound like the person I'd want to do it.  And I hope you still join in on  
conversation, if you aren't at liberty to officially discuss it, I hope that  
doesn't cut you from the list conversation conversation even when it might  
stray into 5th edition area.  Just make sure you put a disclaimer that it is  
you and not official.  Trust me 5th Edition is a topic that comes up on a  
regular basis.  Though you may have inspired it this time, someone else  
might sneeze to inspire it :)   
 
And lastly, I have had my Gaming Store pull out there order forms for games,  
and all Gold Rush Games and Champions stuff they can order is either old  
stuff or Fuzion stuff.  They never heard of Heroic Adventures Volume 1 or 2  
but the manager up there has at least heard of San Angelo though he saw  
nothing official yet.  I'll just have to order it  myself if they take to  
long.  Take it easy and talk at you later. 
 
 
Sparx 
 
===================================================== 
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children. 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:28:40 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Green Hornet conversion 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << Actually, you could put it down as both SID  and Public ID.  The Green 
> Hornet has the SID of Britt Reid, while Britt has the problem of being *very* 
> well known in the local area.  People know him on sight, know where he works, 
> etc. >> 
> << Batman should almost get something like this, as well as Tony Stark.>> 
>  
>   Why should Batman get Tony Stark?  ;) 
 
<slap> <slap> <slap> <slap> <slap> <slap> <slap> 
 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:30:31 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << Seriously, the fact that there won't be one (they say...) doesn't mean that 
> we shouldn't talk about how the current game could be better. >> 
>  
>   I can niether confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning 
> stages. I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic. 
 
Wait... what happened to the ":sigh:" this time? 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:32:23 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:49 AM 12/16/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< Seriously, the fact that there won't be one (they say...) doesn't mean 
that 
>we shouldn't talk about how the current game could be better. >> 
> 
>  I can niether confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning 
>stages. I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic. 
 
   Something I think you *can* do, however, is take notes on what folks on 
the list want and like, and pass the information on to Steve, Bruce, et al. 
   One thing that I think most of us want is a 5th Edition of the Hero System. 
   One thing that I think must of us like is the idea of a 5th Edition of 
the Hero System. 
   Any arguments, people?   :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:35:34 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
GoldRushG wrote: 
>  
>  
>   Might I suggest that some of you are adhering quite strictly to the "letter 
> of the law" as it applies to the rules?  It would be a simple matter for the GM 
> to say that a lost limb is the "special effect" of the BODY Drain, and that 
> over time (as the BODY returns) it represents the overal healing of the 
> victim's body WITHOUT the limb. 
 
Ouch!  In effect, the character who purchased this power is getting the  
ability to impose a permanent character disadvantage as a special effect  
of a power whose primary effect fades after a time certain.  That's an  
awful lot for free.  I certainly would never allow a PC to buy such a  
power, and I generally build my villains according to the same rules that  
the PCs must obey: power limits and plot devices excepted, of course. 
 
>  
>   After all, I would not make a PC who had a Phys. Lim. "Missing Left Arm" 
> start his character with less than 10 BODY. Would you?  ;) 
 
Which is *exactly* why I think that Drain is inappropriate to the effect  
desired.  Taking a BODY Drain (to represent the injury) and a linked  
Major Transform (to represent the permanent disability) is fine, but even  
better would be: 
 
30	3D6 HKA [45 active]   
18	2D6 Major Transform/lose limb Cumulative(+1/2) [45 active] 
		Linked(-1/2) No Range(-1/2)  Final effect when limb  
		is disabled per optional rules(-1/2) 
		Reversal requires limb growth or bionic prosthetic 
 
The BODY damage is now straight BODY damage, Armor can protect one in a  
reasonable fashion, the BODY damage cures normally, and the character has  
paid points for the privilege of sticking his opponent with a long-term  
character disadvantage.  This could also be done as the special effect of  
a "permanent" Drain of STR, DEX and Extra Limbs (just in case) in place  
of the Transform, with a limitation that the Drained points are still  
available in circumstances where the lost limb is not relevant (-1/2?). 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition - Killing Attacks 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 16 Dec 1997 11:36:56 -0500 
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>>>>> "bf" == bobby farris <redbf@ldd.net> writes: 
 
bf> 	Maybe I don't understand you. 1d6k=15 points and 1d6 normal=5 pt's so 
bf> Killing does cost more than normal. 
 
Watch carefully, and remember that killing attacks require more expensive 
defenses: 
 
3D6 N: min = 0B/3S, avg = 3B/10.5S,   max = 6B/18S 
1D6 K: min = 1B/1S, avg = 3.5B/8.75S, max = 6B/30S 
 
In the middle, KAs are about the same as normal attacks: slightly more 
Body, slightly less Stun.  As one moves towards the max end, the "Stun 
Lotto" takes a significant upwards swing. 
 
What I would like to see, but I am not sure how to go about pricing it, is 
to use the "normal" means of reading damage.  To wit, for 3DCs of killing 
attack, roll 3D6 and count the "Body" and Stun as if it were a normal 
attack.  Then apply resistant defenses only against the damage.  Maybe 
worth a +1/4 advantage on the power. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:43:35 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Slipperiness 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 06:23 PM 12/16/97 -0800, Rick Holding wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>>    This is what I currently have down for the effect of a Slick.  Tell me 
>> what you think. 
>>  
>>    If the Transform is successful, then the ground becomes slippery. 
>> Characters and vehicles using Ground Movement must make a DEX Roll at -3 
>> (or a Combat Vehicle Operations or similar Roll at no penalty) when 
>> entering the hex or lose control (see Chapter Three for more details on 
>> this).  Even if this Roll is successful, a second Roll at -2 (in addition 
>> to any other Modifiers) must be made if the character or vehicle attempts 
>> to accelerate, decelerate, or turn while in the affected area. 
>>    At the GM's option, every BODY pip above the 16 needed to successfully 
>> enact the Transform, up to the maximum that can be rolled on the dice, adds 
>> another -1 to the DEX or Combat Vehicle Operations Rolls. 
>>  
>>    Point of Clarification: Combat Vehicle Operations means either Combat 
>> Driving, Combat Piloting, or an equivalent Skill (like Combat Robot 
>> Operations). 
>>    I'm thinking of adding a provision where targets using feet for 
>> transportation would also have to make a DEX or Combat Vehicle Operations 
>> Roll every Phase. 
> 
> Thats pretty good.  Although, I would dispute the requirement to have a  
>target of 16 to transform a hex.  After all, you are only doing the 
surface.  A hex  
>is 2 metres high?  That hex of dirt contains 16 body.  You only want to 
transform  
>.2 metres (8 inches - still very deep but lets see).  This is one tenth a 
hex,  
>hence you only need to transform 2 body per hex.  Spread the "hex" out to 
get your  
>volume and cover 8 hexes for your 16 body target.  Or apply an area effect 
line  
>(oil slick behind the vehicle). 
 
   I don't mind reducing the amount of BODY required to affect the 
Trasnform, but as much as 16 seems high, 2 seems awfully low. 
   AE: Hex is the minimum requirement.  Any greater AE, such as AE: Line, 
merely affects each hex separately.  In fact, the sample vehicle with a 
Slick uses AE: Line to leave the Slick in its path (though it's an ice path 
-- this is a "nuclear Zamboni," inspired somewhat by Mr. Freeze's car in 
"Batman & Robin"). 
 
> But you still haven't applied a modifier to your travel speed.  You hit a  
>slick and stop (fell over, hit something, whatever).  Regain control (made 
you dex  
>roll) and start off again.  You inches of running or driving will not be 
able to be  
>fully applied.  Big number pluck - call it half speed until free of the 
area.  Give  
>the affect device or hero a bonus like they have for stealth vs hearing 
perceptions  
>on page 138 in the BBB. 
 
   That's because it doesn't affect travel speed; it affects the ability to 
accelerate and decelerate.  Go out and run across a frozen pond next July, 
Rick, and you'll see what I mean.  (Assuming you live far enough south, of 
course.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:51:09 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> << when a company prints a book it has to way several factors, >> 
> 
>   I meant, of course, that it has to *weight* several factors. Oi! I need to 
> get more sleep! 
> 
>   Btw, if anyone's BBB has fallen apart, I'd be glad to replace it with a CD 
> hardback (sans HeroMaker). All we ask is that you send us the old book (*all* 
> of it, please) and then pay for shipping the new books to you ($3). Sound 
> fair? 
 
 
	Oh yeah.  I'll gather my various pieces up.  (Hope I can find it, 
actually, I've been using a HSR to keep up) 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: Fvigil <Fvigil@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:58:20 EST 
Subject: Re: Champions  5th Edition 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 97-12-15 18:10:53 EST, you write: 
 
> 	Allows you to bounce an attack off of a surface. For each time you 
>  buy it, you can bounce one more surface. Or so it reads in GURPS. 
>  	Sort of a variation of 'Indirect'. 
 
   Can't you do this with skill levels now? 
 
   Fernando   
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:11:10 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition - Killing Attacks 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat writes: 
 
> What I would like to see, but I am not sure how to go about pricing it, is 
> to use the "normal" means of reading damage.  To wit, for 3DCs of killing 
> attack, roll 3D6 and count the "Body" and Stun as if it were a normal 
> attack.  Then apply resistant defenses only against the damage.  Maybe 
> worth a +1/4 advantage on the power. 
 
Hm...the only situation I would do this is if this were the _only_ way of 
buying KAs.  Particularly since the only part of KAs which are 
resistant-defense only is the body.  Not that this is necessarily a bad thing; 
for a game in which I wanted it to be hard to kill people, calling KA a +1/4 
advantage on EB would be reasonable.  For a game in which you wanted KAs to be 
actually deadly, that's more of a problem.  I have been tempted by 'killing 
damage: +1/4 advantage.  Attack applies against resistant defenses, as 
described in the BBB.  Instead of the normal calculations for body, assume that 
body is equal to half the stun'.  This, of course, makes KAs hugely lethal, but 
that may be appropriate for some games. 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:18:03 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Odd Combat 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:03 AM 12/16/97 -0500, TokyoMark wrote: 
>>> I think it could vary.  In Drunken Master II Jackie's Drunken Style is 
>>> called weak unless he has been drinking.  If he gets too drunk he 
>>> can't fight though. 
>> 
>>Actually, no, if he gets 'really' drunk (off strong drink or industrial 
>>alcohol) he becomes almost unbeatable.  (super strength, resistance to 
>>damage, extra skill levels...) 
>>  
> 
>Well, in Drunken Master II, Jackie Chan gets beaten up badly in middle of 
>the movie while totally drunk.  I forget if it is his father or his master 
>who comments that drinking past a point renders him unable to fight.  What 
>that point is, who knows.  He certainly sucks down the industrial grade 
>alcohol at the end and fights great:). 
 
   A combination of this discussion and a scene early in "Blind Fury" 
brings this idea to mind: 
   How about a character who beats up the bad guys... by *accident*?  He 
just turns and swings a arm, and... POW! 
   Probably Martial Arts with No Conscious Control? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:29:09 -0600 (CST) 
Subject: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
>  
>    Something I think you *can* do, however, is take notes on what folks on 
> the list want and like, and pass the information on to Steve, Bruce, et al. 
>    One thing that I think most of us want is a 5th Edition of the Hero System. 
>    One thing that I think must of us like is the idea of a 5th Edition of 
> the Hero System. 
>    Any arguments, people?   :-] 
> --- 
 
I don't, as I stated previously.    
 
Curt Hicks   
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:42:55 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Don McKinney wrote: 
 
>  
> HERO Plus sucks (the ONLY new item I've seen is Ultimate Super Mage, 
> and I'd rather convert to GURPS Supers than use that).  You didn't  
> even try to produce a Star HERO 4th ed. book, even though the interest 
> was there, and the existing Fantasy HERO stuff doesn't work at all  
> with my 600 pt. character high fantasy game (I'd never seen Fantasy 
> HERO before, so I just converted my AD&D game over to Champions...). 
 
And there is a really nice Star Hero 2nd Edition on the net that has a lot 
of nice stuff in it.  It's a shame Hero didn't finish fleshing the book 
out. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:44:19 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:52 AM 12/16/97 CST, Don McKinney wrote: 
>Ok - I understand your (Mark's) position here - he's not in the driver's 
>seat here.  But HERO Games: 
> 
>1. "We don't expect players happy with Champions to switch to 
> Fuzion." 
>2. "We don't plan on doing a 5th edition at this time". 
>3. "We are not going to stop supporting 4th edition". 
>4. "Any future CHAMPIONS material will be released through 
> HERO PLUS". 
> 
>HERO Guys:  Please stop leading us around.  If the evolution of HERO 
>System ended with 4th edition, please say so.  If in fact a fifth 
>edition being produced is even a remote possibility, please say so. 
 
   Ironically, the sad thing is that these four happy statements are all true. 
 
>I run a 400+ attendee game convention in Champaign, IL.  Fact is, this 
>year is the first year in a long time that we don't have any Champions 
>games (except for the Saturday Morning Rumble, but that's not roleplay, 
>that's king of the hill combat).  People think the game is gone. 
>When I tried to get support for Champions for last February's con, 
>neither R. Talsorian or HERO responded (but Atlas Games did, bless  
>them, but they're gone now too).  Perhaps Gold Rush Games might,  
>but apparently they weren't on our GAMA contact list (thanks GAMA). 
 
   Jump on the chance, Mark!  It'll be good for business!  (I can't be 
there, of course, since I'm way out here in Oregon and I'm still in a 
low-income bracket, but if it were in my area I'd do what I could to drop 
by.... 
 
>This mailing list is a gathering of the faithful.  Either tell us to 
>follow the one true way over to Fuzion (in which case, I'm gone -  
>I still can't figure out the rule of X, and please DON'T e-mail me 
>explaining it to me), or tell us there's something to stay here for. 
 
   Gee, I find Rule of X rather easy to understand.  It's the Disadvantage 
structure that's giving me headaches.... 
 
>HERO Plus sucks (the ONLY new item I've seen is Ultimate Super Mage, 
>and I'd rather convert to GURPS Supers than use that).  You didn't  
>even try to produce a Star HERO 4th ed. book, even though the interest 
>was there, and the existing Fantasy HERO stuff doesn't work at all  
>with my 600 pt. character high fantasy game (I'd never seen Fantasy 
>HERO before, so I just converted my AD&D game over to Champions...). 
 
   You haven't seen Widows & Orphans?  I'm awaiting a review of it; from 
what I've seen (including the online preview), I want it.  (I also want to 
throttle Avellone because he got his Dark Champions clowns in print before 
I did mine.) 
   Besides, Doug, surely you've been reading about The Ultimate Super 
Vehicle that I've been working on (I think you even gave some helpful 
input), to say nothing of my mention of Northwest Champions and a VOICE 
update, and Shelley's current work on a PRIMUS book?  (Michael's Kazei 5 
book could also count, if you include Dark Champions and don't insist that 
it be Champions Universe related.) 
   And who knows what else might be in the works from authors not 
associated with this list?  By this time next year, there could be a couple 
dozen Champions titles out from Hero Plus. 
   As for Star Hero 4th Ed, I'd like to know myself why that project ground 
to a halt roughly three years ago.  I originally downloaded the playtest 
manuscript from Red October a year and a half ago; something should have 
moved with it.  Obviously something went wrong -- though I wouldn't quite 
say that they didn't even try. 
 
>Anyway, the Steves, Bruce and anyone else associated with HERO Games, 
>can you be up front with us?  Either tell us the patient is dead, or 
>alive, but take him off the artificial life support. 
> 
>We've got a good group of gamers up here in Champaign, and HERO used 
>to be the game of choice.  But in the last two years, everyone's left 
>that game but six of us, and to be honest, even the rats have left. 
 
   I definitely agree that a little extra support and communication 
directly to this list from *someone* at the top of the ladder would be very 
helpful. 
   Personally, I would like to have a list (if only in the form of "coming 
soon" blurbs) of all Hero Plus projects for which final drafts have been 
submitted.  That would give us a better idea of what's coming up.  I don't 
mind snafus like what happened with the Assassins' Directory or various 
other projects that had to be put on indefinite hold; I just like to know 
what's in the works. 
   (And on that topic, thanks, Mark, for posting such a list here.  It 
helps me make plans.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:46:59 -0500 (EST) 
From: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu> 
X-Sender: wbushway@mason2.gmu.edu 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
>   Btw, if anyone's BBB has fallen apart, I'd be glad to replace it with a CD 
> hardback (sans HeroMaker). All we ask is that you send us the old book (*all* 
> of it, please) and then pay for shipping the new books to you ($3). Sound 
> fair? 
 
	Sounds excellent. 
 
What is your mailing address (or the address you would like the books sent 
to)? 
 
How do you want the $3 (personal check, money order, cash)? 
 
Asking as one of the few who do not already own HeroMaker, can I include 
some extra money for a copy of the software? 
 
Finally, about long do you think it'll take for delivery?  6-8 weeks? 
 
	          William K. Bushway, wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu 
	          http://Mason.GMU.edu/~wbushway/index.html 
	   "I'm betting that I'm just abnormal enough to survive." 
		    -The Tick, The Tick Vs.The Breadmaster 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:16:58 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> F> Uh, I can think of a number of SFX that would allow both separate and 
> F> together uses of a power. 
> 
> I like real-world examples: M-16A2 with grenade launcher.  Use the rifle, 
> use the grenade launcher, or use both.  The last is unwieldly, but it can 
> be done. 
 
 
	Buy with two seperate powers and do one power or power slot with 
the two purchased together as one power, perhaps with a -1/2 linked on one 
of the powers. 
 
	And for some of the examples, especially the two seperate SFX, one 
in each hand, there is a better way.  If both are, say, EBs, or even if 
one is an EB and the other is a KA, buy as a slightly larger EB with a 
mixed SFX.  Cheaper than trying to link two (with it's greater effect of 
defenses) and about the same effect.  Two 10d6 EBs, put together, do not 
equal one 20d6 EB, actually they would be an 11D6 EB. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:22:58 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Acrobatics in Combat 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:57 AM 12/16/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Tokyo Mark wrote: 
 
>Whoa!  'Drunken Fighting' doesn't require that the character gets drunk! 
>It is a style meant to simulate the erratic movements of someone who is 
>drunk.  A drunken fighter doesn't have to drink anything to fight.  Now, 
>it is a typical schtick in a few movies that the drunken fighter sucks 
>down some wine, gets sloshed and becomes unbeatable.  Or as the quote 
>goes: 
> 
>"I seldom drink wine becuase I can't stop giving heavy punches if I get 
>drunk!" 
>  
IRL, "Drunken Fighting" doesn't require you to be drunk.  However, some 
cinematic "drunken fighters" must drink, or get better when the are 
drunk...  just like you said below!!! 
Ninja Hero gives the manuevers and skills required for "normal" drunken 
fighting, but it also says you have a -2 OCV/-2 DCV *if actually drunk*. 
This is for *everybody* (unless you have a funky Immunity to alcohol, or 
something.  Say...). 
 
>> I think it could vary.  In Drunken Master II Jackie's Drunken Style is 
>> called weak unless he has been drinking.  If he gets too drunk he 
>> can't fight though. 
> 
>Actually, no, if he gets 'really' drunk (off strong drink or industrial 
>alcohol) he becomes almost unbeatable.  (super strength, resistance to 
>damage, extra skill levels...) 
>  
>> I'd say skill levels with limitations.  Probably damage reduction with 
>> limitations and maybe even a damage class or two with limitations.   
> 
>All valid suggestions for a cinematic drunken fighter. 
> 
Which is what I was speaking of.  I think you just got upset 'cuase I 
didn't specify.  Sorry, and thanks for answering.  : ) 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:23:39 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> EB> Yes, this seems reasonable, but how would you handle powers and 
> EB> attributes linked to powers without varying degrees?  For instance, 
> EB> 10pts of COM linked to Shape Shift. 
> 
> If you have 30AP of Shapeshift with 10AP of COM linked to it, you must use 
> all 10 points of COM.  What the powers are and what they are used for has 
> no bearing on this. 
 
	Right. 
 
> This is a good example of why I believe that powers are inherently 
> "linkable" without modifiers and without restrictions.  Without any 
> limitations, one could use all 30 points of Shapeshift without using any 
> extra COM.  With Linked, if you want to use the COM you must use the 
> Shapeshift, and they must be used in equal proportion. 
 
 
	True.  However, this is a difference of attack and non-attack 
powers.  As non-attack powers can be used together as much as desired, up 
to any potential END or framework considerations, linked is a definate 
disadavantage.  This is less likely with combat powers.  I'd really lean 
toward just buying something like this as a solo power: 
 
	8d6 EB + 2D6 Flash  =  60 AP ; 6 END 
 
	       or 
 
        4d6 EB + 1D6 Flash, AE Radius  = 60 AP ; 6 END 
 
 
	The problem, of course, is an old one.  Each side of the power is 
less effective as they will be affected greater by defenses meant to 
defend against the whole 60 AP, ie, 12d6 EBs or 6D6 Flashes.  I consider 
both of the above to be a lot less effective, in general.  (Though there 
are situations where there is increased usefulness).  I'd make judgements 
on cost, I guess, on the relative scarcity of the defenses in question. 
 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:26:47 EST 
Subject: Re: Champions 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< In other words: keep talking about what you'd like to see in an 
-hypothetical- 5th Edition.  Just -don't- blame it on Mark. 
Wink, nudge. >> 
 
  NOW you have the Hero spirit! :D 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:26:49 EST 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Editio 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< You mean the one done by George Perez?   With Seeker jumping to attack Dr. 
Destroyer (presumably without effect and a lot of pain on Seeker's side)? 
Why does it need to be changed?>> 
 
  Because I think after X years of the same cover it's time for a facelift, 
that's all. We're trying to reach a new market, or at least expand our market 
for 4th Edition. Do you disagree? 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:26:50 EST 
Subject: Re: San Angelo (Re: Greetings) 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Powers acted exactly like my normal supers games. This "source" for 
super powers didn't affect powers at all. What it _did_ do was work as 
a campaign element.>> 
 
  By George, I think you've got it!  ;)  That's exactly what we're aiming for. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:26:52 EST 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 98 
 
<< Are you going to seperate the powers into their own seperate book?>> 
 
  I'm not at liberty to discuss any plans to reprint Champions or Hero System. 
But, hypothetically speaking... no. It would all be in the HSR book. ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:26:54 EST 
Subject: Interrogation 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Cops grilling someone are using interrogation as well. >> 
 
  Don't I know it (a veiled reference to my "day" job). ;) 
 
  I usually allow Complimentary Skill rolls to Interrogation; usually 
Psychology. But almost any skill if I feel (in my *experience*) that it could 
be applied. For example, if you were trying to grill a murder suspect, I'd 
allow Forensic Science as a comp roll because you would know all sorts of neat 
scientific details to baffle him with. "Not only do we have your prints, but 
we matched the DNA from the skin cells you left on the priest's crucifix, you 
sicko!" <LOL> 
 
  I'm pretty liberal in my application of skill rolls when success is needed 
to move the story along, as if you couldn't tell. ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:27:00 EST 
Subject: Re: Champions 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< A bit more detail, please.  Just what sort of comments are you unable to  
address.  Legal?  Production?>> 
 
  I am not at liberty to discuss this topic any further, until further notice. 
I'm sorry. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:27:03 EST 
Subject: Re: Green Hornet conversion 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Actually, you could put it down as both SID  and Public ID.  The Green 
Hornet has the SID of Britt Reid, while Britt has the problem of being *very* 
well known in the local area.  People know him on sight, know where he works, 
etc. >> 
 
  I've always allowed well reasoned applications of SID and PID, like that. 
It's reflective of the genre. ;) 
 
<< Batman should almost get something like this, as well as Tony Stark.>> 
 
  Why should Batman get Tony Stark?  ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:27:14 EST 
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions) 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< 1.	"We don't expect players happy with Champions to switch to Fuzion." >> 
 
  This is true. 
 
<< 2.	"We don't plan on doing a 5th edition at this time". >> 
 
  That was true. 
 
<< 3.	"We are not going to stop supporting 4th edition". >> 
 
  This is true. 
 
<< 4.	"Any future CHAMPIONS material will be released through HERO PLUS".>> 
 
  This is not true, any more. Future Champions products will also be coming 
from GRG. What the heck do you think I've been promoting here this lpast week 
or so? :D 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:27:14 EST 
Subject: Re: Regenerating limbs 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Ouch!  In effect, the character who purchased this power is getting the  
ability to impose a permanent character disadvantage as a special effect  
of a power whose primary effect fades after a time certain.>> 
 
  Yeah, I guess (on hindsight) it is a pretty gross "freebie." :D 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:27:16 EST 
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions) 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Of course, when I winked it usually gave it away. How about winking Mark;) 
>> 
 
  "At this point, ladies and gentlemen, I can assure you that there is 
absolutely no conspiracy or attempt at a cover up at this time. If we had any 
news of this sort to bring, we would do so with complete forthrightness and 
resolve. It is a duty and an obligation of this government to keep the people 
informed and we take that obligation to heart. That is all." 
 
<< Seriously I understand where your coming from. >> 
 
  Elvis has left the building. ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:27:17 EST 
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions) 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Something I think you *can* do, however, is take notes on what folks on 
the list want and like, and pass the information on to Steve, Bruce, et al.>> 
 
  "People, I am here to tell you that there are no such things as flying 
saucers, and we definitely do not have one in the New Mexico desert." 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:33:20 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage o 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>>>>> "JD" == Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> writes: 
> 
>JD> Now, you *could*, I suppose, fire them both at the same *very close* 
>JD> target, but then you get hit with the "grenade" damage as well. 
> 
>I did not say that it would be *useful*, only possible to fire both 
>simultaneously. 
> 
Possible in the same sense that you could fire two pistols together 
accurately, or (more extreme) two M-16s from the hip together.  It's just 
not gonna do much good... 
 
>'Course, if you are running a game in which much firing of large weapons is 
>the norm, then you could. :) 
> 
Yeah, it'd have to be pretty highly cinematic... and then it would work 
fine.  : )  Where else are the PCs carrying around an M-16/M-203 combo, 
anyway? 
 
- Jerry 
 
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com> 
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions) 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:35:57 CST 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>    You haven't seen Widows & Orphans?  I'm awaiting a review of it; from 
> what I've seen (including the online preview), I want it.  (I also want to 
> throttle Avellone because he got his Dark Champions clowns in print before 
> I did mine.) 
 
Um - online preview?  Ok, what website am I missing? 
 
>    Besides, Doug, surely you've been reading about The Ultimate Super 
> Vehicle that I've been working on (I think you even gave some helpful 
> input), to say nothing of my mention of Northwest Champions and a VOICE 
> update, and Shelley's current work on a PRIMUS book?  (Michael's Kazei 5 
> book could also count, if you include Dark Champions and don't insist that 
> it be Champions Universe related.) 
 
Don :) 
 
And A HERO Vehicle book I've been waiting for years for, not including 
the three drafts of such I sent Bruce Harlick and the meeting he and I 
had at Gen Con over that manuscript (oh, and over the Star Hero playtest 
I might add, since my group generated a 30 page document on fixes for 
that Red October download document - in addition to our own vehicle 
and starship rules). 
 
>    And who knows what else might be in the works from authors not 
> associated with this list?  By this time next year, there could be a couple 
> dozen Champions titles out from Hero Plus. 
>    As for Star Hero 4th Ed, I'd like to know myself why that project ground 
> to a halt roughly three years ago.  I originally downloaded the playtest 
> manuscript from Red October a year and a half ago; something should have 
> moved with it.  Obviously something went wrong -- though I wouldn't quite 
> say that they didn't even try. 
 
Bruce Harlick told me that something had gone wrong, and they had pulled 
the project in-house to fix it...  That was three years ago... 
 
>    I definitely agree that a little extra support and communication 
> directly to this list from *someone* at the top of the ladder would be very 
> helpful. 
 
Thanks, Bob.  I'm getting occasionally disillusioned... 
 
>    Personally, I would like to have a list (if only in the form of "coming 
> soon" blurbs) of all Hero Plus projects for which final drafts have been 
> submitted.  That would give us a better idea of what's coming up.  I don't 
> mind snafus like what happened with the Assassins' Directory or various 
> other projects that had to be put on indefinite hold; I just like to know 
> what's in the works. 
>    (And on that topic, thanks, Mark, for posting such a list here.  It 
> helps me make plans.) 
 
Yes, for example, I know as soon as you have some TUSV stuff ready, 
I have a group ready to playtest it (and I might convert my Star Fleet 
Champions rules over to it).   
And as long as its four color and doesn't have CLOWN in it, I'm always 
willing to help on a project...  
 
(my group includes an engineer, a librarian and professional proofreader, 
and an English Lit GS, plus myself, the jack of all trades computer 
programmer) 
 
 
Just having a bout of disillusionment, 
 
DonM. 
-- 
========================================================================= 
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist,              (217) 239-8365 =  
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL     dmckinne@cmi.csc.com = 
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 = 
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org    (217) 469-9917 =  
========================================================================= 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:38:58 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Pirate Hero 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> << I'd really buy that.  GRG, are you listening?  There may be some 
> interest in reviving Pirate Hero. >> 
> 
>   Don't tell me. Tell the author(s)! I don't go hunting down people to write 
> opur products. They send us proposals, and Hero (and myself) must approve 
> them. *Then* we discuss publishing the book. Until then, all it is is a good 
> idea. ;) 
 
 
	Not one I'd probably do, though its not an unknown era for me. 
I'd be better at something Arthurian or Celtic.  Or perhaps something on 
the various pre-European contact Native American civilizations. 
 
	I think the product was started and never completed over at Hero's 
end.  If it never got beyond the planning stages, I'd love to jump in to 
turn it into a finished product, if there's any type of interest. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com> 
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions) 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:44:35 CST 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> > HERO Plus sucks (the ONLY new item I've seen is Ultimate Super Mage, 
> > and I'd rather convert to GURPS Supers than use that).  You didn't  
> > even try to produce a Star HERO 4th ed. book, even though the interest 
> > was there, and the existing Fantasy HERO stuff doesn't work at all  
> > with my 600 pt. character high fantasy game (I'd never seen Fantasy 
> > HERO before, so I just converted my AD&D game over to Champions...). 
>  
> And there is a really nice Star Hero 2nd Edition on the net that has a lot 
> of nice stuff in it.  It's a shame Hero didn't finish fleshing the book 
> out. 
 
Well, our group received more than that, and generated 30 pages of  
response/fixes for those guys - that never went anywhere either. 
 
Our group actually actually considered taking our "Star Fleet Champions" 
rules up to Gen Con, and passing them out for free near the Task Force 
Games booth...   
 
 
Sigh... 
 
DonM. 
-- 
========================================================================= 
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist,              (217) 239-8365 =  
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL     dmckinne@cmi.csc.com = 
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 = 
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org    (217) 469-9917 =  
========================================================================= 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:46:13 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Needed: Mentalist Inspiration 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> I was hoping the folks on this list could help with a character design. I've 
> been invited to join an ongoing Champions game, and the other player want me to 
> create a mentalist to help round out their party. Now, I've been playing and 
> GMing in the Hero System for years, but I've never much liked mentalists. So, I 
> want some unconventional suggestions for mentalism powers to give me some 
> inspiration. The concepts I've come up with so far (I do concepts first, build 
> system after) are: 
 
	To start, you really need to pick up The Ultimate Mentalist.  Hero 
has it available from their Web Site in Hero Plus electronic format. 
 
> Mental Invisibility. 
> 	She projects an aura that affects peoples minds and convinces them that she 
> isn't there. It would be probably be bought as some form of Images 
> (Static Image of empty space) aftecting all but mental senses (mentalists can 
> 'see' what she's doing) Probably has some sort of limitation like 'Points of 
> Mental Def counter negative perception modifiers' or something like that. She 
> would likely have extra levels of DCV linked to the Mental Invisibility.  She 
> might even have a multipower in which she can tune her aura to project 
> other affects, like heightened beauty or impressiveness or even some sort of 
> 'Boy am I scarey' field. 
 
	This is better done with Invisibility to whichever senses desired 
with a limitation like, "Not effective on those with 5+ (or 10+ or 
whatever) points of mental def; -1/2."  The other's might be best in a MP 
of different effects, like an Aid to PRE or COM." 
 
> Mental Transform 
> 	I am assuming that a Transform vs Mental Def is a +0 (since AVLD doesn't 
> distinguish between them.) Anyway, she would have a (minor?) transform to 
> modify someone's memories (possibly requiring a sufficient read-minds roll). 
> Ideally the effect would require rolling double the victims EGO rather than 
> BODY, but that isn't essential. 
 
	This is covered completely in TUM, and it does allow going against 
Mental Def at +0.  (Or a lim in an high-mentalist game).  It also works 
against EGO instead of BODY, if you're interested in more, e-mail me and 
I'll scare up some quotes. 
 
> Skill Drain 
> 	This might also have to be bought as a transform, but I am thinking of a 
> mental power that interferes with and makes someone forget how to use a 
> particular skill/maneuver for a time. 
 
	Drains bought down the time chart would work, but would be way too 
effective and cheap.  I'd go with a mental transform, like above. 
 
> So there you are. Are there any other good mind-affecting powers that she 
> should have? The party already has a telekinetic, so I'm shying away from that. 
 
 
	I've always been partial to Empaths.  In a recent campaign, I 
wouldn't allow a normal Telepath (too easy to destroy mysteries) but did 
allow an empath.  Powers like Read Emotions, Control Emotions, Sense Aura, 
Healing with Feedback, Emotional Overload, etc. 
 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:49:38 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> >> THWAP! (Sound of BBB (softcover) hitting player's head.) 
> > 
> >	I'd prefer a large handful of dice, myself . . . 
> > 
> But then they don't make that satisfying "THWAP!" sound...  <g> 
 
 
	True, but they have that beautiful peppering effect, as well as 
acting as great caltrops when the player tries to move anywhere.  I also 
like the full dice bag being used as a sort of club. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:52:21 EST 
Subject: M-203 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> F> Uh, I can think of a number of SFX that would allow both separate and 
> F> together uses of a power. 
> 
> I like real-world examples: M-16A2 with grenade launcher.  Use the rifle, 
> use the grenade launcher, or use both.  The last is unwieldly, but it can 
> be done. 
 
<< Buy with two seperate powers and do one power or power slot with 
the two purchased together as one power, perhaps with a -1/2 linked on one 
of the powers. >> 
 
  The M-16A1 (or A2) with the grenade launcher is called the M-203 (which 
replaced the older M-148, I believe). And the last thing any grenadier worth 
his salt is going to do is use them both at the same time. I know. I were one 
for years. 
 
  The reason is because when using the M-16, your shooting hand is on the 
pistol grip and the other is (typically) on the hand guard. 
 
  When firing the 40mm grenade launcher, whose trigger is forward of the 
M-16's magazine, your shooting hand goes around the *magazine* of the gun. 
Such a configuration makes it rather difficult to reach the pistol grip and 
trigger of the M-16. :/ 
 
  Just one of the many neat military trivia items that could appear n a 
"Military Hero" sourcebook. ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:54:40 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>> >> THWAP! (Sound of BBB (softcover) hitting player's head.) 
>> > 
>> >	I'd prefer a large handful of dice, myself . . . 
>> > 
>> But then they don't make that satisfying "THWAP!" sound...  <g> 
> 
>	True, but they have that beautiful peppering effect, as well as 
>acting as great caltrops when the player tries to move anywhere.  I also 
>like the full dice bag being used as a sort of club. 
> 
Wow.  Versatile power.  So, you have a Multipower OAF, one slot HA (the 
clubbing effect), one slot Autofire EB (really small, with charges) and... 
after you throw the Autofire EB, you get caltrops?  How do you write *that* 
up?  lol 
Ok, I know it's not an oil slick or anything, but... lol 
 
- Jerry 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:56:16 -0600 
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net> 
Subject: Re: Pirate Hero 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Pirates was one of the Campaign Classics series from ICE that included stats for both Hero and Rolemaster.  Good book. 
 
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** 
 
On 12/16/97, at 12:38 PM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:  
 
>> << I'd really buy that.  GRG, are you listening?  There may be some 
>> interest in reviving Pirate Hero. >> 
 
... 
 
>	I think the product was started and never completed over at Hero's 
>end.  If it never got beyond the planning stages, I'd love to jump in to 
>turn it into a finished product, if there's any type of interest. 
 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:09:54 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Champions 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> > << Unless of course, Hero is planing on actually doing a 5th Edition (HAH!). 
> > 
> >   I can neither confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning 
> > stages. ::Sigh:: I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic. 
> 
> Hmm... someone's using 'cut-and'paste' for thier e-mail now, I see.  ^_^ 
 
 
	I'd guess he has a Macro set up, myself. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:29:56 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> >>    - Force Field and Force Wall should have Flash Defense, Mental Defense, 
> >> and Power Defense methods built right in. 
> > 
> > Sure.  See USM for examples, but basically put that right into the 
> >core rules. 
> 
>    I don't have USM, and if I had I wouldn't have listed this.  Part of my 
> main recommendation is to include most or all of the rules from Ultimate 
> books, Dark Champs books, and Atlantis, with a few from the HSAs. 
 
	OK, that's good.  And the USM rules are just pretty 
straightforward addition of the other defenses.  The main consideration is 
what does and does not take down the wall.  Take a wall that just supplies 
power def -- what does an energy EB do? 
 
> > Look at the version in Hero's Digital Hero instead.  I expect this 
> >is what we'll be seeing in any new version.  Oh, and note the KA option as 
> >well; I'd expect KA to just be an advantage on normal attacks. 
> 
>    I've seen that one.  It's not bad, but I like Opal's better. 
 
	I'm leaning toward the Digital Hero one, but considering my own 
variation: 
 
	HKA's and HA's are gone.  If the effects are desired, buy an 
equivalent amount of RKA or EB with the no range limitation.  STR is too 
cheap as is to add to the amounts. 
 
	This, however, destroys the possibility of combat modifiers with 
the powers, so . . . I think I'll stick with a 5 pt HA or the DH version. 
 
>    Officially, I think it takes a full Phase to change clothes.  I don't 
> like this; ask any SNL cast member how long it takes for a costume change 
> with help from two people.  I put it here as 5 minutes. 
 
	Depends on what is being worn, but 20 seconds isn't unreasonably 
fast.  Of course, your finishing the various buttenings and such while 
heading back to the stage. 
 
> > Like I pointed out, work in something like Weapon Familiarities. 
> 
>    That's basically how I'm doing it here (in the more detailed write-up I 
> have on disk somewhere), except that I refer to them as "discrete elements." 
 
	So, something like:  Immune to Cold - 2pts; Immune to Heat; 2pts. 
Both for 3 pts? 
 
> >Also, add a LS: Does not die for something like 10 pts.  A somewhat major 
> >ability with almost no combat importance.  This is not something that 
> >should cost 20, 30, 40, or more points, as some of the list's writeups 
> >have done. 
> 
>    I'm not sure that even 10 points is too expensive. 
 
	Do you mean that 10 pts is too expensive?  Perhaps, but this would 
serve to have very reckless characters.  "I can't die, so I'm gonna 
suicide bomb the bad guys."  I actually had a character of mine do this, 
and he only had Regen. 
 
	Hmmmm.  Maybe 10 pts for having common ways to die, 15 for an 
uncommon way to die, 20 for no way to die? 
 
> > Nope.  This is too easily abusable.  Keep it as it is in 4th ed. 
> 
>    You know how much of an Energy Blast I could get in a campaign with a 60 
> Active Point limit that would cut your defenses to one-eighth?  3 1/2d6. 
> Or a 1d6 Killing Attack.  Not real threatening, and only occasionally useful. 
 
	Not that bad, as you point out.  Also would rarely be seen, I'd 
think. 
 
> > We also need a way to increase the increased radius for expl at a 
> >faster rate.  As it is, a AE is quickly more effective. 
> 
>    Agreed.  If someone could do the math on how AE's +1/4 Advantage to a 
> +3/4 Explosion compares to equivalent Advantage levels of AE, I'd be very 
> interested. 
 
	I'm not exactly sure what you're asking for here. 
 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:31:53 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Odd Combat 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
> >Well, in Drunken Master II, Jackie Chan gets beaten up badly in middle of 
> >the movie while totally drunk.  I forget if it is his father or his master 
> >who comments that drinking past a point renders him unable to fight.  What 
> >that point is, who knows.  He certainly sucks down the industrial grade 
> >alcohol at the end and fights great:). 
> 
>    A combination of this discussion and a scene early in "Blind Fury" 
> brings this idea to mind: 
>    How about a character who beats up the bad guys... by *accident*?  He 
> just turns and swings a arm, and... POW! 
>    Probably Martial Arts with No Conscious Control? 
 
 
	But NCC is way too big of a disadvantage here.  Unless, of course, 
this is such a rare occurance to be almost negligable. 
 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:38:18 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> << 1.	"We don't expect players happy with Champions to switch to Fuzion." >> 
> 
>   This is true. 
 
	I first heard this one at GenCon this year.  Before that, they 
were trying to push a switch to Fuzion on us. 
 
> << 2.	"We don't plan on doing a 5th edition at this time". >> 
> 
>   That was true. 
 
	Isn't that a slip?  Or maybe George P. took my comment on a 
Revised and Expanded 4th edition, sort of like WEG's R&E 2nd ed of Star 
Wars RPG, to heart.  (which was a *really* big seller, BTW.  Wonder if 
that played into the decision.  If so, expect whatever it is to have 
*great* artwork to attract the newbies) 
 
> << 3.	"We are not going to stop supporting 4th edition". >> 
> 
>   This is true. 
 
	But could change at any time.  Argh! 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:42:11 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> Wow.  Versatile power.  So, you have a Multipower OAF, one slot HA (the 
> clubbing effect), one slot Autofire EB (really small, with charges) and... 
> after you throw the Autofire EB, you get caltrops?  How do you write *that* 
> up?  lol 
 
 
	That would be a small EB linked to a Ranged Martial Throw, AE 1 
hex, triggered by walking in hex, linked to the autofire EB slot of the 
MP. 
 
	Sound good? 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:45:21 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com> 
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>> << 2.	"We don't plan on doing a 5th edition at this time". >> 
>> 
>>   That was true. 
> 
>	Isn't that a slip?  Or maybe George P. took my comment on a 
>Revised and Expanded 4th edition, sort of like WEG's R&E 2nd ed of Star 
>Wars RPG, to heart.  (which was a *really* big seller, BTW.  Wonder if 
>that played into the decision.  If so, expect whatever it is to have 
>*great* artwork to attract the newbies) 
 
Let's all repeat it together:  
 
"I can niether confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning 
stages. I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic." 
 
Scott 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:52:47 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    Besides, Doug, surely you've been reading about The Ultimate Super 
> Vehicle that I've been working on (I think you even gave some helpful 
> input), to say nothing of my mention of Northwest Champions and a VOICE 
> update, and Shelley's current work on a PRIMUS book?  (Michael's Kazei 5 
> book could also count, if you include Dark Champions and don't insist that 
> it be Champions Universe related.) 
 
Hey, Kazei Five isn't a Dark Champions book!  It's a worldbook set in it's 
own universe!  And uh... (Mike takes a look at some of the characters in 
his manuscript) Okay, so maybe it *is* a Dark Champions book, but it is 
supposed to be an update of sorts to CyberHero (which tops the 
'questionable use of limitations' list). 
 
>    And who knows what else might be in the works from authors not 
> associated with this list?  By this time next year, there could be a couple 
> dozen Champions titles out from Hero Plus. 
 
Or, GRG.  Hey, there are other genres than Champions! 
 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:54:37 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Odd Combat 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    A combination of this discussion and a scene early in "Blind Fury" 
> brings this idea to mind: 
>    How about a character who beats up the bad guys... by *accident*?  He 
> just turns and swings a arm, and... POW! 
>    Probably Martial Arts with No Conscious Control? 
 
Depends.  Is the aim of the character that he makes it look like an 
accident, or he just gets lucky? 
 
If the former, I'd suggest a combination of martial maneuvers and skill 
levels.  The latter should get a bunch of skill levels with a limitation. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:57:42 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Green Hornet conversion 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << Actually, you could put it down as both SID  and Public ID.  The Green 
> Hornet has the SID of Britt Reid, while Britt has the problem of being *very* 
> well known in the local area.  People know him on sight, know where he works, 
> etc. >> 
>  
>   I've always allowed well reasoned applications of SID and PID, like that. 
> It's reflective of the genre. ;) 
 
I've also considered SID to be useable to represent things other han a 
'secret ID'.  In my Wildcards adaptions, I had such things as 'SID: 
homosexual' or 'SID: former spy'.  I have also given out things like 'SID: 
agents names are classified', or 'Public ID: vehicle in question is 
commercially avaliable' (for a very unusual hovercar used by a superteam). 
  
> << Batman should almost get something like this, as well as Tony Stark.>> 
>  
>   Why should Batman get Tony Stark?  ;) 
 
So Batman could get a butt-kicking suit of powered 'bat-armor' why else? 
^_^ 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
X-Sender: jdriscol@mail.vt.edu 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:59:11 -0500 
From: Jeremiah Driscoll <jdriscol@vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: Link: Disadvantage or Advantage (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>> Wow.  Versatile power.  So, you have a Multipower OAF, one slot HA (the 
>> clubbing effect), one slot Autofire EB (really small, with charges) and... 
>> after you throw the Autofire EB, you get caltrops?  How do you write *that* 
>> up?  lol 
> 
>	That would be a small EB linked to a Ranged Martial Throw, AE 1 
>hex, triggered by walking in hex, linked to the autofire EB slot of the 
>MP. 
> 
>	Sound good? 
> 
Yeah, I'm just trying to figure out how to limit it so that it has an 
Activation roll based on # of dice, and how it *may* affect the hex that 
the person you hit with the Autofire EB (dice) with, even though you hit 
them... and you lose the HA when you throw the dice. 
 
Ha.  Well. 
 
- Jerry 
Yeah, I'm done now.  Thanks.  : ) 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:05:41 EST 
Subject: Re: GRG:  San Angelo, 5th Edition, and my Game Store... 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Just finished reading San Angelo (downloaded), and I must say I'm 
impressed.  
 I can't wait until it comes out. >> 
 
  Thank you. We're working hard to make this a very usable product for all 
Champions fans. I'm glad it meets your approval. 
 
<< I love the idea of the Flux. It is something I would gladly welcome. >> 
 
  We like it, too. ;) Simple, yet diverse enough to allow any special effect 
you desire. 
 
<< I just don't understand why you want San Angelo to be apart from the 
Champions  
Universe. >> 
 
  Because we're starting from scratch, so to speak, in order to present a more 
cohesive line of products in which we can maintain continuity. 
 
<< And lastly, I have had my Gaming Store pull out there order forms for 
games,  
and all Gold Rush Games and Champions stuff they can order is either old  
stuff or Fuzion stuff. >> 
 
  That's true. HA2 was released last August, and we haven't published a 4th Ed 
book since then. San Angelo is due out in January. Layouts have begun. ;) 
 
<< They never heard of Heroic Adventures Volume 1 or 2 >> 
 
  Your store can order them, if they like. Every distributor can order more, 
if needed. 
 
<< ...but the manager up there has at least heard of San Angelo though he saw  
nothing official yet. >> 
 
  Wow! He's heard of San Angelo? Our marketing is working! :D 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:05:44 EST 
Subject: Conventions and such 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< On another note, would you be interested in any additional playtesters, 
convention reps, and all around good guys (and gals) in the Columbus/Dayton, 
Ohio area? >> 
 
  Always. Drop us a line. 
 
  as for convention support, we've been severely lacking in this area, but I 
willing to start supporting them in any way we can. Suggestions are welcome. 
Generally we donate prizes in return for an ad in the convention booklet, but 
we're open to ideas. 
 
  Convention organizers should contact us via mail or private e-mail. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:05:50 EST 
Subject: Re: My BBB's falling apart! 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< What is your mailing address (or the address you would like the books sent 
to)? >> 
 
  Gold Rush Games 
  9529 Big Timber Drive 
  Elk Grove, CA 95758 
 
  Note that this is NOT the address for general correspondence. KJeep our PO 
box address in your files. ;) 
 
<< How do you want the $3 (personal check, money order, cash)? >> 
 
  Check, money order, or credit card (Visa/MC) 
 
<< Asking as one of the few who do not already own HeroMaker, can I include 
some extra money for a copy of the software? >> 
 
  No. But you can send $25 to Hero Games for a copy of it. ;)  We're all out. 
 
<< Finally, about long do you think it'll take for delivery?  6-8 weeks? >> 
 
  The turnaround should be faster, but we're required by FTC regulations to 
advicse you that it may take 4-6 weeks for delivery. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition concluded 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:07:12 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 20 
 
On Monday, December 15, 1997 1:09 PM, Christopher Taylor wrote: 
 
 
>Last but not least, a simple way of handling damage.  There are two 
damage 
>structures, normal and killing.  Each one has a ranged and a STR adds 
damage 
>element.  Thus, structure them like this: 
> 
>        NORMAL ATTACK: 5 points per die, defined either as ranged or 
STR 
>adds           damage. 
> 
>        KILLING ATTACK: 15 points per die, defined as either ranged 
or STR 
>adds         damage. 
> 
>        +1/2: add ranged or STR adds damage as an element to the 
attack. 
> 
>voila, consistent, simple, fits the damage class structure, and works 
with 
>the present system. 
 
 
Unfortunately, for the same 5 points per die, I could buy STR, which 
would add the same amount of damage _and_ lift _and_ grabs _and_ adds 
to figured characteristics. 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com> 
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions) 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:22:14 CST 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> << 1.	"We don't expect players happy with Champions to switch to Fuzion." >> 
>   This is true. 
> << 2.	"We don't plan on doing a 5th edition at this time". >> 
>   That was true. 
> << 3.	"We are not going to stop supporting 4th edition". >> 
>   This is true. 
> << 4.	"Any future CHAMPIONS material will be released through HERO PLUS".>> 
>   This is not true, any more. Future Champions products will also be coming 
> from GRG. What the heck do you think I've been promoting here this lpast week 
> or so? :D 
 
I'm just quoting anything HERO folks might have said in relation to  
a new edition of HERO. 
 
;) 
 
-- 
========================================================================= 
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist,              (217) 239-8365 =  
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL     dmckinne@cmi.csc.com = 
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 = 
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org    (217) 469-9917 =  
========================================================================= 
 
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: Some specific suggestions (a tad long) 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:23:25 CST 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> > > Look at the version in Hero's Digital Hero instead.  I expect this 
> > >is what we'll be seeing in any new version.  Oh, and note the KA option as 
> > >well; I'd expect KA to just be an advantage on normal attacks. 
> > 
> >    I've seen that one.  It's not bad, but I like Opal's better. 
>  
> 	I'm leaning toward the Digital Hero one, but considering my own 
> variation: 
  
Ok: what's Digital HERO? 
 
 
DonM. 
-- 
========================================================================= 
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist,              (217) 239-8365 =  
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL     dmckinne@cmi.csc.com = 
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 = 
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org    (217) 469-9917 =  
========================================================================= 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:23:51 -0600 
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net> 
Cc: Germania@airmail.net 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
One of the PCs in my pulp campaign has heightened physical abilities, and is so close to the Aryan ideal that he took the Disad, "Hunted by Nazis for breeding experiments".  So imagine being captured by the Nazis and escorted to a private suite by a dozen beautiful Valkyrie maidens... and then meeting the ideal of German motherhood, Germania... 
 
It's either that, or Dr. Qual gets out "der Pump"... 
 
Euuuugh. 
 
Guy 
 
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com> 
Subject: Re: Art in GRG's Hero books 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:27:02 CST 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> >>   You haven't seen his San Angelo illos yet. ;)  If I thought his work was 
> >> substandard, I wouldn't have commissioned him to do stuff for SA. Wait 'till 
> >> you see it. 
> > 
> ><cough> No... but I have seen his stuff from Mystic Masters and Kingdom of 
> >Champions, and I have always thought his material was pretty rotten. 
>  
> But that was almost a decade ago.  One would assume that he's improved since then. 
 
Perhaps in our attempt to assist in "revising" and "expanding" the existing 
edition of the HERO rules, we might let them know what ART we NEVER, ever 
want to see again? 
 
 
DonM. 
 
-- 
========================================================================= 
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist,              (217) 239-8365 =  
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL     dmckinne@cmi.csc.com = 
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 = 
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org    (217) 469-9917 =  
========================================================================= 
 
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com> 
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions) 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:37:21 CST 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> >> << 2.	"We don't plan on doing a 5th edition at this time". >> 
> >> 
> >>   That was true. 
> > 
> >	Isn't that a slip?  Or maybe George P. took my comment on a 
> >Revised and Expanded 4th edition, sort of like WEG's R&E 2nd ed of Star 
> >Wars RPG, to heart.  (which was a *really* big seller, BTW.  Wonder if 
> >that played into the decision.  If so, expect whatever it is to have 
> >*great* artwork to attract the newbies) 
>  
> Let's all repeat it together:  
>  
> "I can niether confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning 
> stages. I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic." 
 
Twas three months after Gen Con,  
The gamers were sad. 
The HERO folks had moved over to Fuzion, 
and even Foxbat was mad. 
 
Then the guy from Gold Rush 
came up to the list... 
He brought comments on gaming 
he brought product lists... 
 
He gave us some hope, 
he even filled us with glee, 
even if I just had to see 
another WoTC spot on my TV 
 
Then he accidentally blurted those words 
those enchanting, delightful, glorious words: 
"What would you want to see in a fifth edition" 
and the list was filled joyous rendition  
as gamers pulled out from messages past 
the ideas they'd put away because it hadn't come to pass 
 
Then as the list boiled and churned 
with such activity 
the guy from gold rush said apologizingly: 
"I can no longer discuss this topic with liberty." 
 
And the list stopped, and all was hushed 
where moments before there had been such a rush 
we all realized again that our chances were zero 
 
We'd get fifth edition when we'd get Star Hero. 
 
 
 
DonM. 
-- 
========================================================================= 
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist,              (217) 239-8365 =  
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL     dmckinne@cmi.csc.com = 
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 = 
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org    (217) 469-9917 =  
========================================================================= 
 
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:43:40 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: NO 5TH EDITION! (Was Re: Champions) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> >	Isn't that a slip?  Or maybe George P. took my comment on a 
> >Revised and Expanded 4th edition, sort of like WEG's R&E 2nd ed of Star 
> >Wars RPG, to heart.  (which was a *really* big seller, BTW.  Wonder if 
> >that played into the decision.  If so, expect whatever it is to have 
> >*great* artwork to attract the newbies) 
> 
> Let's all repeat it together: 
> 
> "I can niether confirm nor deny that such a product is in the planning 
> stages. I am no longer at liberty to discuss this topic." 
 
 
	Well, he can't.  But we can. 
 
	Has anyone here bought or read through WEGs 2nd ed R&E?  It really 
is about the best RPG product I've seen.  The quality is high, it is well 
organized for the experienced gamer,