Week Ending December 27, 1997
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:12:36 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: National Super Teams
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At 06:21 AM 12/18/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 11:22 AM 12/18/97 +1000, happyelf wrote:
>>PS: My national super team can kick your national super team any day *l*
>*j/k*
>
> Without even seeing what Phase II is like (they've never been published;
>Champions Down Under has never been more than a suggestion), there's little
>doubt that they (or any other national superteam, like the Sentinels and
>the New Knights) could beat the stuffing out of Executive Sanction. But I
>gather they concentrate less on pitched battle (leaving that to PRIMUS) and
>concentrate on investigation and such things.
>
>
WHAT?!?!?! who the heck thought of phase two??!?! and
as fer champs down under? data please *g*
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: DP9 Marketing
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:15:18 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> Almost sounds like one of the Japanese anime I saw Kishin Corps maybe.
> Except some of the mecha they had in there were huge (35m + tall) required a
> crank start and then a lot of vacuum tubes passing a lot of power before the
> main engines got really going and before the next use over half the tubes
> needed replaced. But then what would you expect from vaccuum tubes.....
Actually, Vaccuum tubes are often more reliable than transitors.
Just bigger. In today's world, a trnasitor only a few molecules across
in size would be a few inches if it where a tube.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Official Rulings (was Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:31:04 +0000 (GMT)
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> I was at Origins in 1977 and heard Tim Kask announce the "One True Way of
> D&D". I was particularly appalled at a statement to the effect that they
> intended to sue the APAs and all competing role playing games out of
> existence -- after all, all conceivable role playing games were rip-offs
> of D&D, and anyone with a halfway decent idea could come to TSR to have
> it evaluated by the real experts, anyway.
It could still happen. :)
After all:
1. WoTC bought TSR
2. WoTC patented CCG's
a. WoTC announced that ALL CCG's must pay them a licencing fee.
b. WoTC has said they will be very agressive about pursuing this
3. One could make the logic leap that they attempt to claim this right
for the RPG market due to now owning TSR.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:31:52 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Revised Hand Attack
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At 04:00 AM 12/18/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>Opal wrote:
>>Examples:
>>
>>SuperCop wants a simple billy club. He buys:
>>
>>4d HAp, 0 END, OAF, Beam: always +1 OCV & +3d -1/4,
>>Apts 30, Rpts 13
>>
>>SuperCop has a 25 STR, but since the 0 END on the
>>billy club doesn't extend to STR, he just adds
>>the two together. He does 8d normal with a +1 OCV
>>whenever he uses his billy club.
>>
>So, you would give an *additional* point break to the OCV level? As it
>stands now, if I want a +1 OCV w/ a weapon it would cost 5 points, usually
>with a -1 OAF lim. You're giving it a -1 1/4 for no reason (IMO)...
>
I must admit I don't like the ocv bonus concept. .. . too
cheap. . .
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 19:58:13 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Changing +1/2 to +0.5
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>>> Me neither. Though I _would_ like to see an official modifier, 'Costs END to
>>> Activate, but not Maintain', though I'm not sure what it's worth. Probably a
>>> +1/4).
>This one's easy: either buy a Continuing Charge, or buy the power to 0
>End, then add in the Limitation Costs End to Cast (-1/4)
>qts
Sigh. My point was that I didn't _want_ to kludge this effect with half a
dozen other modifiers. IMHO the 'Costs END to Start, but not to Maintain'
deserves a power modifer all its own. Clean, easy to understand, and looks
short on the page.
The only problem is that it's worth more (IMHO) than +1/4 (on a END-costing
power), but 0 END is a +1/2 advantage. Unless somebody wants to introduce
1/8th advantages (yuck!), I can't decide.
Hey, what if, in HERO 5th, the system goes decimalized? For ease of use, it
should only go to the first decimal point, (make all those +1/4s into +0.2
or +0.3, or even +0.1, depending on the advantage...). A little extra
resolution wouldn't hurt, especially with advantages like Indirect and
Invisible.
For example: Invisible to one uncommon sense: +0.1
Invisible to one common sense: +0.2
Invisible to one sense group: +0.3
So, having a power that's invisible to sonar (only, not normal hearin) is
worth a +0.1, while making it invisible to normal hearing is +0.2, and
invisible to all forms of hearing +0.3.
Or, how about Indirect:
Indirect: from a single pre-defined point: +0.2
Indirect: from a movable, conditional point: +0.4
Indirect: from any point: +0.6
Indirect: points away from user (always) +0.0 (default)
Indirect: points in a single, defined direction:+0.1
Indirect: points in a conditional direction: +0.2
Indirect: points in any direction: +0.4
So, a power that originates 3 ft in front of the PC and always points away
is worth +0.2. A power that always originates from below the target
(movable, single direction) is worth +0.5. A power that always originates
from a nearby surface and points perpendicular from that surface (movable,
conditional direction) is worth +0.6. A power that originates anywhere and
fires in any direction is worth a whopping +1.0.
Back to 'Reduced END':
Reduced END: 1/2 END Cost: +0.3
Reduced END: 1 END Cost per use/phase: +0.4
Reduced END: 0 END: +0.5
Reduced END: 0 END Maintenance, not Initiation: +0.4
How 'bout it, folks? Good idea/bad idea?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 97 01:08:00
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Talent: Intuition
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On Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:17:00 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
>This seems to be the time to trot out all the house rules and ideas for new
>powers, so here's another one of mine:
>
>
>INTUITION
>
>This EGO-based talent is the ability to leap to a correct conclusion
>without all the facts necessary to make a logical conclusion. It is similar
>to the Skill Deduction, and should likewise be used sparingly. However,
>this talent differs from deduction in both applicability and results. A
>character may attempt an Intuition Roll to reach some understanding in the
>absence of complete information. The conclusion he or she reaches, though,
>may not answer the question the player had in mind. The conclusion will
>also be less definite than the product of logical reasoning - a "hunch" -
>and the Skill Roll should therefore generally be made by the GM. A failed
>Intuition Roll usually means that the character has no strong feeling about
>the situation, or it can mean an incorrect hunch.
>
>Cost: 3 points for a 9+(EGO/5) base roll, +2 points per +1 to the roll.
Why not use Luck, Only For Making Lucky Guesses (-1/2 to -1)? I really
don't see how you could justify your power as an improvable skill.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: New Limitation: Puncture
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 17:40:24 -0800
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On Saturday, December 20, 1997 8:01 AM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
>F> When an attack takes Puncture, it loses its ability to make big
holes.
>F> Examples include rapiers and most firearms. An attack using
Puncture
>F> makes small holes only.
>
>You've obviously never seen the massive tissue deformation caused by
most
>firearms, especially those with hollowpoints.
Which are small holes, compared to the description in the Breaking
Things section. The minimum sized hole described in Breaking Things is
_human sized_.
>F> Thus, a .44 Magnum cannot be used to blow a 6 ft hole in the wall
of
>F> your house,
>
>This is inherent. 6 feet ~= 2 meters = 1", or a 1 hex attack. If
you want
>to blow a 6-foot hole in a wall, you need an AoE attack. If you want
to
>*cut* a large hole, that depends on the SFX of the power in question.
BBB, first printing, pg. 178, second column, section "Wall Body".
"Of course, with walls and similar structures, a character doesn't
have to completely destroy the object-- he just wants to blow a hole
through it. In this case, use the walls thickness, according to the
following table. A character who exceeds the wall's body has created
a human-sized hole in it. The size of the hole doubles for every +1
BODY inflicted over the wall's base BODY."
So, you do _not_ need an AoE attack to make a large hole in a wall.
Technically, you can blow absolutely ridiculous-sized holes in a wimpy
enough wall.
However, a .44 Magnum cannot make such a hole. Since such a hole is
extremely useful at times, it is at least worth noting that this is a
limitation, if not a Limitation.
>F> and a rapier cannot be used to knock down an oak door,
>
>Not when the oak door's DEF is more than the damage that the rapier
can
>do.
Not when the oak door's DEF is less than the damage that the rapier
can
do, either. That is irrelevant. A rapier would be useless against a
thin plywood door, without numerous punctures in it. A broad or long
sword can do it in one.
A standard long sword can be used in this fashion, but a rapier
cannot. However, they have the same ability to do damage (at least in
some descriptions). Therefore, the rapier is limited. If you don't
want to give it a Limitation, at least note that there is, in one case
a significant difference between attacks that puncture and most
attacks in Champions.
I'm disappointed, Rat. If you want to claim this is a major flaw in
the rules, or even a minor one, go right ahead. However, I expected
you to at least know the rule.
Filksinger
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Building A Super Hero World
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 04:18:16 +0000 (GMT)
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Hello;
Now for something that has nothing to do with linked, 5th edition, or
how to use transform. :)
I'm putting together the background of my Super Hero world.
I need a world were the UN has a ban on Super Soilders. Yet Nukes still are
legal. Much like we ban chemical yet not nuclear in the real world.
I have a global organization that acts as a sort of JLA, and
brief ideas on how it came about.
I need to explain why the world would choose to ban super soilders.
Why they place trust in a private organization, how they justify super-cops.
I thought I'd go about talking about how supers came into being, what
actions led up to them being banned from military usage, why they are viewed as
they are, etc...
Some of what I'm working on is already on my website at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/campwrld.html
The final modern age needs to present a world which is somewhat four
color. Where Heroes are Heroes and Villians Villians. They exist on a grand
scale yet also have a deeper, personal element to them. Not a carboard cutout
world; but a heroic one.
Comic Inspirations for me are Astro City, Stormwatch (ideas wise, not
flavor wise), Impulse, and even Gen13 to a lesser degree.
Some of my ideas are below.
This is a read in of a file I've been editing, that I'm getting stuck on.
[***First Insert***]
A General Super History.
The key was the war. Before the second world war there where isolated
vigilante's here and there. But nothing in mass, nothing organized. After the
war they were just there. A new part of reality. Something the world had to
wake up and account for.
During the Second World War a number of governments were looking for that
edge that would put them ahead. As the world's need grew; the Super Humans began
to appear and step in to help the effort for their side. Some of them; such as
Korean resistance fighter 'The Chosun Dragon' (Yong Cho-Sun) had been fighting the
war of freedom for decades before the west got involved. Other's joined in as
needed. for America it started with Captain Patriot and Patriot Girl. Germany had
Blitzkrieg. Japan had Kami. There were others. The numbers grew as the war dragged
on.
When the war ended Germany and Japan were both found to have done much
'experimentation' into producing Super Soilders.
[***End first Insert***]
From there on I'm stuck, I need a reason why they were banned globally,
yet I still want a golden age feel to the era.
[***Second Insert***]
The Big Players
Who are the major government organizations? The big villain
threats? The worlds most famous Heroes?
The UN has a branch of Interpol dedicated to dealing with
international Super Crime. While they are global their
jurisdiction is limited to International incidents. The bulk of
their forces are non Super in nature.
There are also some Super's on various UN Peacekeeping assignments
throughout the world.
WatchTower is a global organization dedicating to combating Super
Human and related threats. The group is semi private. It traces
it's origins to a private group formed after the second world war.
A group of heroes from diferent nations who agreed to come
together in times of need. As time has gone on, the organization has grown to be near
global and often sponsored by a whole host of governement and private interests. I
have more details on Watch Tower elsewhere. (link not yet active)
Government Super Soilders:(How do I go here, yes or no, and in what way, need to work
this out.)
Part of the UN's founding charter, in an effort to prevent the mistakes of the Second
World War; outlined very restrictive rules on the use of Super Humans by national
governements. The trick was in writing a document which prevented Super Armies,
without also preventing the Atomic Powers (the US in those days) from maintaining
their edge. As the US was on the winning side of the war; this issue was of vital
importance to it. After all, many nations had Supers, but only one had the A-Bomb.
* In the US the first response to a Super threats was the National Guard. As time
went on various legal issues led away from this. As WatchTower became stronger,
the US began to rely on it for direct intervention, but formed a division under
the FBI for investigative work. So the US uses WatchTower as a sort of SWAT Team,
and has FBI agents work with them for investigation and arrests.
Militarily, the US officially maintains no Super Human special forces, as per UN
conventions. However, rumors abound to the contrary.
* China has a very well known division of the People's Liberation Army composed
mostly of Mutants. (This one will most likely have to be made into a National
Police group, or justified in light of the ban.)
[***End Second Insert***]
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 21:04:42 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Official Rulings (was Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...)
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Brian Wong wrote:
>
> Because when I ask someone's opinions on something, I already know
> that I can "do what I want". What I want to know is what they had intended
> to mean when they wrote down what they did. Under such a circumstance,
> telling me "do what you want" is insulting. It's telling me "I don't care
> to answer peasants." Maybe it's part of my background in asia, when I'm
> told something I always look past the words to see the true meaning held
> in the message. But I doubt it. Cause I'm not alone in finding such an
> answer to be unfufilling to my needs.
While each of our backgrounds certainly colors our reactions, I assure
you that I come to the same conclusion from a thoroughly Occidental
background. I tend to regard the rules as a contract between the players
and the GM. If I announce that I am using a published system X, then it
is incumbent upon me to publish any variant rules that I am using,
including such things as campaign limits on power. Where my own rules are
silent, the players can and should assume that I am doing things per the
book.
Every time that the book is ambiguous, I am compelled to publish a
clarification so that my players understand what I am doing. If I don't
do this, then one player is apt to feel that he or she is being treated
unfairly compared to another player, or they will not have confidence
that I am constructing villains according to the rules -- and the
principle of reciprocity is very strong in both my regular gaming groups.
Accordingly, I appreciate clarifications of the form, "This is what we
meant when we wrote the rule. There are other reasonable ways to run
this, but this is what we intended, and what we think works best." I am
then perfectly capable of announcing a house rule that conflicts with the
official ruling, but I tend to prefer the book method unless I have
strong reasons to do something otherwise.
>
> On the contrary. I DO NOT WANT a Gygax routine of you and Steve
> going on the net, cons, and some version of Adventurers Club telling
> us that "the rules are X, and only X, and failure to play by method X is
> a failure to play the game and should result in confiscation of your
> copy of the game."
Aaaauugh!
I was at Origins in 1977 and heard Tim Kask announce the "One True Way of
D&D". I was particularly appalled at a statement to the effect that they
intended to sue the APAs and all competing role playing games out of
existence -- after all, all conceivable role playing games were rip-offs
of D&D, and anyone with a halfway decent idea could come to TSR to have
it evaluated by the real experts, anyway.
No, please don't let Hero and GRG go down that road!
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 22:10:06 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
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GoldRushG wrote:
>
> << How does Linked work? >>
>
> Can you be a little more specific? Two powers are linked to "go off"
> together, and the smaller of the two (in APs) gets the Limitation. What else
> do you want to know?
Oh, gee, just a hundred things or so...
While I realize that you cannot peruse the entirety of huge threads,
there are a few clues that Linked is underspecified:
1) The vast number of posts that occur every time Linked is mentioned.
2) The constant references to the Great Linked Debate.
3) The FAQ, which you *should* have time to peruse.
4) The fact that Steve Peterson has, himself, stated that Linked is not
as well thought out as it should be and has contradicted himself publicly
on such basic questions as whether the larger (base) power can be used
without the smaller (linked) power. This is also noted in the FAQ.
IIRC, this is an area where published characters tend to be inconsistent
with a straightforward reading of the rules as published, but I have no
examples to hand.
>
> << How many powers can be used with a single attack roll in a phase? >>
>
> One, unless they are linked.
Are you absolutely sure? Steve has apparently contradicted himself on
this point as well. For example, if this is true, how does one describe
two powers that can be used together *or* separately? One seems to
require an unlisted Advantage for this.
>
> << What can Transformation do (and not do). >>
>
> It can simulate any effect not already covered by an existing Power, as I
> understand it. It's usually used for cosmetic changes, and is *always*
> reversible.
This is a simplistic answer. Can a Major Transformation create a
character with more points than the character transformed? If so, how
does one limit this? If not, how does one explain the published
characters (Purge Armor) and origins (Leech) that seem to require Major
Transform to do this?
Better guidelines on the dividing line between Minor and Major Transform
would be helpful. Moreover, Major Transform seems to cover anything from
"permanently" blinding a person (reversable by extended medical
treatment) to turning someone into a styrofoam duodecahedron (reversable
by pressing the correct button on a control belt), even though most
people would agree that the second is vastly more powerful than the
first in most situations.
These problems are not so important with NPCs: they rarely complain
that the other NPCs are getting more power for a given expenditure of
points. This *is* a problem when two players want powers that seem best
described by a Transform, and one wants to preserve equity and amity.
>
> Rather than wading through countless posts of "debate" on these issues
> (which I admit I don't have the time to do due to other commitments)
One *could* look at initial posts with a prefix such as "Rules Question".
> is anyone
> here willing to help me compile a concise list of rules questions? That would
> be most appreciated.
Again, you might start with the FAQ. Unfortunately, "concise" is likely
to be in the eye of the beholder, since many problems, such as those with
Linked, are best expressed with examples to show the different problems
that may arise. In any event, I am willing to help, and I am sure that
others are as well.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:36:41 EST
Subject: Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< It can simulate any effect not already covered by an existing Power, as I
> understand it. It's usually used for cosmetic changes, and is *always*
> reversible.
<< Can a Major Transformation create a character with more points than the
character transformed? >>
Good question! :D I would say yes, but only if it furthers the plot, etc. I
wouldn't allow abusive uses of it. But I know that's not the answer you were
looking for.
Mark @ GRG
From: "Jeff O'Connor" <jtoc@msn.com>
Subject: Looking for Phoenix Players
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:38:16 -0700
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Is there anyone on this list from Phoenix or its surrounding cities? I
would love to get involved with a group this upcoming year, but haven't seen
much that I like around here lately. There is a large gaming group that
meets very near my apartment in Mesa, but they all play Fuzion, which I
neither like nor own.
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:49:20 EST
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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In a message dated 97-12-20 11:31:19 EST, you write:
<< F> The fallacy in this argument is that 99% of the time, *whatever* a
F> character creates using Transform is going to be USEFUL to someone,
F> otherwise he/she wouldn't be creating it.
Yeah, because turning a dragon into a frog is going to be really useful to
the now ex-dragon.
But tons more useful to the person about to be eaten/breathed upon by the
dragon. Seriously, if it's not useful, you wouldn't do it. Think about it.
Why perform an action if it doesn't benifit you or someone else? (Our
friendly S&M bretheren aside)
F> If you turn your enemy to stone, that has just become useful to you,
F> since the enemy can't attack you anymore.
You could have killed him instead. You are not creating something useful,
you are crippling your opponent. You have not created something, you have
turned your enemy into something else.
That is useful to you, which was the whole point. Using a Transform to
incapacitate an enemy, changing a dagger to a sword, giving a friend wings...
are all things that are *useful* in some way. (And don't tell me that if I
use Transform to give a friend wings, that I'm going to have to reach across
the table and scratch an equal number of points off his sheet to keep the same
number of points) And if you abide by the sentence you're trying to say
outlaws point increases, all these are now invalid uses of Transforms.
F> If you create food out of thin air, that is useful to you.
Food has no active point cost, thus is not "useful" as far as game
mechanics are concerned.
I did say 99%. Never say never... unless you're Sean Connery.
F> If you change a normal human (25-50 points) into a vampire (let's see
F> anyone make an effective vampire for 25 points), the vampire is now a
F> stronger character (useful to himself or the vampire sire).
If the point total is the same as the original character, then the vampire
is not more "useful" than the original character as far as game mechanics
are concerned. 25 points of X is just as "useful" as 25 points of Y.
>>
You're missing the point here... it's *impossible* to make an effective
vampire on 25 points! Therefore, in order to change a normal to a vampire,
using Transform, you're going to *have* to increase his/her points... probably
along the lines of 200+ points. (If you're going to do a vampire justice) And
besides, since most of the points spent on normals are on skills, does that
mean that all of a sudden they forget all their skills? While that may fit a
few conceptions of vampires, it certainly doesn't fit them all. And again,
please don't say that the Transform is Linked with an Aid or something, since
Champions' own example of a Vampire uses only Transform.
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:49:47 EST
Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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<< However, Gold Rush Games has even more diversions. It has a complete Fuzion
line with Usagi Yojimbo and Sengoku. It has Crunchy Frog Games products, and
it has a line of import videos. >>
We distribute the Crunchy Frog stuff. We don't do any development on it. So
I would not count it as a "diversion." Same with teh videos. We don't produce
them. We just sell them.
<< Exactly. Perception is reality. Common perception is that Hero no longer
exists. Perception being reality, then it can be said that Hero no longer
exists. >>
Perception is not reality. Truth is truth, a lie is a lie and ignorance is
ignorance. Life is but an allusion and karma is karma.
Now, back to Hero stuff... The fact that the "perception" was allowed to
become false rumors is the responsibility of the people who jumped to a false
conclusion and spread "assumptions" as "facts." That's irresponsible. But I
agree we need to do more, also, to get the word out. Part of the problem is,
some folks don't even believe *us*! :D
<< You can scream all you want that copies are sitting in a warehouse, but
unless you can convince the public at large thet they are there and available;
they effectivly don't exist. >>
I don't appreciate your tone. I was not "screaming." And further I think
that that is horse-hockey. Those copies of Champions and other Hero books are
there whether folks believe in them or not. *That's* reality! <LOL>
<< Need to do something Hero has never done much of at all. Need to blitzcreig
the gaming world with advertizement. >>
You people need to realize that advertising is very expensive, and that
blitz you mention is not practical, nor plausible for us right now. :/
<< When we disagree with Hero we often get dismissed out of hand as being no
more than a small oddball fringe of Hero's Market. A fatal mistake. Not only
are there many people on this list... >>
Yes, yes, I know about how that word-of-mouth and "networking" stuff works.
;)
<< Hero makes a move in here and word spreads fast. >>
So all those stores and gaming groups now KNOW that Hero products are, in
fact, coming and that Champions 4th is NOT dead? They know all about San
Angelo and the follow-up books in the SA line, right? I mean, you told them
that stuff, didn't you? ;)
Mark @ GRG
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 22:53:30 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Link degression
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Mark Lemming wrote:
>
> On the phrase "CON Stunned"
>
> How many people just want to reach across the table and slap the
> person with a wet sea bass when they say that?
Never heard it before. Better choices would have been "unstunning" or
"catch up with yourself." Neither phrase appears in the rulebook, but
both convey concepts that are not compactly expressed otherwise.
Similarly, although the book does not define "attack powers", most people
know the difference between an offensive and a defensive power.
Although, if Rat is correct, and a "somatic soliloquy" can be performed
by firing an Energy Blast at nothing in particular, it would make more
sense out of the example Presence Attack, where Arkelos the Mage appears
to waste an action by blasting an innocent tree. Of course, hitting the
tree should have required an attack roll anyway...
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 16:57:50 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Looking for Phoenix Players
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:38 PM 12/20/97 -0700, Jeff O'Connor wrote:
>Is there anyone on this list from Phoenix or its surrounding cities? I
>would love to get involved with a group this upcoming year, but haven't seen
>much that I like around here lately. There is a large gaming group that
>meets very near my apartment in Mesa, but they all play Fuzion, which I
>neither like nor own.
Well, i live on the other side of the world, but
I advise you convert them back to hero. . *eg*
>
>
>
>
>
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:01:03 -0800
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Friday, December 19, 1997 9:01 PM, Firelynx16 wrote:
>In a message dated 97-12-19 17:09:35 EST, you write:
<snip>
>If you change a normal human
>(25-50 points) into a vampire (let's see anyone make an effective
vampire for
>25 points)
<snip>
As you wish.:)
Actually, my method gives you a workable vampire for ZERO points.
That's right, zero.
Step one: You use Transformation to make the human into a vampire. The
vampire has certain basic traits. The vampire is a character of a
greater power level than the original, _but with no additional
points_. That's right, no extra points. Thus, anyone who becomes a
vampire is at least a Super Hero Character, with stronger characters
going up two levels, to a maximum of high-powered Superhero.
Superheroes will find that being vampires may interfere with their
abilities in some way, at least in the short run. Thus, high powered
superheroes being incapable of taking more Disadvantages, lose other
super powers until they can pay to get them back.
Step two: The vampire has vampiric powers, for no points. Buy whatever
vampiric powers you like, and give the vampire zero points for them.
This gives the vampire powers to put points into, when he gets the
points, but gives him nothing that costs points.
Step three: The vampire is given standard vampiric Disadvantages.
Depending upon your campaign, these may include Fear of Holy Items,
Susceptibility to Sunlight, Susceptibility to silver, etc. Pick
whatever is appropriate to your campaign. You should easily get 75 pts
in Disadvantages out of this.
Step four: Give the vampire these actual powers:
15 EC: Vampire
15 Total Life Support
15 3 BODY/Turn Regeneration
19 1d6 Transfer BODY increased maximum Transfer on both Transfer
powers, points return at 5/ day.
19 1d6 Transfer EGO to previously mentioned Vampiric Powers, points
return at 5/ day.
14 N-ray Vision, only to see in the dark (-1/2)
3 +3 STR, or whatever you want
100 Total Cost
Now you have a vampire. To begin with, the vampire is weak- only as
strong as a normal man. This is a very dangerous stage for a vampire,
as it is not an effective hunter.The vampire's strength is in its
resistance to death and its ability to take strength from others. As
it attacks its victims, it becomes stronger and stronger, until it is
very powerful indeed. However, it must continue to feed, or before
long it will be almost normal again; weak once again.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: New Limitation: Puncture
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:16:54 -0800
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On Saturday, December 20, 1997 6:15 AM, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
>
>On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, Filksinger wrote:
>>
>> Puncture (-1/4)
<snip>
>
>This is very interesting. I can certainly see the applicability of
it, but
>I wonder about the precedent it sets. Normally I handle this sort of
thing
>as a special effects issue. Making rules for it makes sense on one
level,
>but it seems to me it could get overly complex very quickly. What
about a
>broadsword, which could certainly make a large hole in a wooden door
in a
>few phases, but is a lousy implement for digging through dirt or
stone?
>What about an attack that can slice a circle in a wall, but doesn't
>actually destroy much material so that it can't make much of a hole
in
>anything beyond a certain thickness?
>
>It also seems that by using this disadvantage, you open the door to
>countless other comparable minor disadvantages. KA's that effect the
>entire body at once are incapable of impairing a limb - that might be
>worth a disadvantage. Blunt weapons are unlikely to sever a limb.
Blade
>weapons might do less damage on rigid-structured opponents like
animated
>skeletons.
>
>I could see working up a whole set of disads to simulate a wide
variety of
>attacks, and this might be appropriate in a very few campaigns. But I
>suspect it would be opening a can of worms to start using this sort
of
>things in most games.
>
>What have your experiences with it been?
Frankly, fairly limited. Firearms have had a few additional
limitations in my campaigns for some time, such as Puncture and Cannot
be used underwater or when clogged with mud or sand. However, as my
superheroes have almost never wanted firearms, and my heroic
characters never pay points for them, this has not been an issue.
A broadsword is somewhat limited, it is true, but it is small enough
to be special effects. The limitation on the rapier is clearly larger,
and I generally consider it enough to be significant. I don't usually
go in for very detailed, minor limitations. It has been my experience
that firearms have a limited utility compared to most superhero world
weapons.
Besides which, I could never figure out why Viper agents would run
around with high-tech weapons whose only notable characteristic was
being less effective than the equivalent size (and presumably much
cheaper, monetarily) firearms.
Filksinger
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:37:43 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Official Rulings (was Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 09:04 PM 12/20/97 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:
>While each of our backgrounds certainly colors our reactions, I assure
>you that I come to the same conclusion from a thoroughly Occidental
>background. I tend to regard the rules as a contract between the players
>and the GM. If I announce that I am using a published system X, then it
>is incumbent upon me to publish any variant rules that I am using,
>including such things as campaign limits on power. Where my own rules are
>silent, the players can and should assume that I am doing things per the
>book.
This pretty much fits my own view of gaming. IMO, there are two reasons to
know the "official" rule on a given sitution:
1) Because you're going to use it.
2) Because you're NOT going to use it.
There's nothing wrong with changing a rule to fit your game, but it's a good
idea to know what you're doing first, to understand the "canon/tournament"
view before you make any divergences from it. I can modify my car, too, but
I really ought to know how it's SUPPOSED to fit together before I start
messing with it.
>I was at Origins in 1977 and heard Tim Kask announce the "One True Way of
>D&D". I was particularly appalled at a statement to the effect that they
>intended to sue the APAs and all competing role playing games out of
>existence -- after all, all conceivable role playing games were rip-offs
>of D&D, and anyone with a halfway decent idea could come to TSR to have
>it evaluated by the real experts, anyway.
An attitude now being echoed by WotC -in re- the Garfield Patent & CCGs
(*sigh*). I wonder if any of these people realize that the purpose of
"intellectual property" laws from the beginning in the U.S. was to *promote*
the exchange of ideas, not choke it to a standstill. :/
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:37:45 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Official Rulings (was Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:45 AM 12/21/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Sat, 20 Dec 1997, Brian Wong wrote:
>
>>
>> 1. WoTC bought TSR
>> 2. WoTC patented CCG's
>> a. WoTC announced that ALL CCG's must pay them a licencing fee.
>> b. WoTC has said they will be very agressive about pursuing this
>
>You have got to be kidding. How could WoTC patent the idea of the CCG? I
>could see patenting and Trademarking Magic... but every form of CCG?
If you've read the Garfield Patent, it's a real work -- the thing is written
so vaguely, one gets the feeling he eventually intends to sue the makers of
Pogs.
Frankly, it'll probably fall through if it ever gets to court, on the
grounds that:
1) Patent applications MUST be submitted (not approved, just
turned into the Patent Office) within a year of the creation
or publicization of the product. Magic was on the shelves for
at least 2 years before Richard Garfield submitted his patent.
Barring a loophole I haven't located yet, this renders the
ISSUING of the patent null & void; given, that's a technicality.
2) There's enough "prior art" on this thing to restock the Louvre,
primarily on account of the overbroad nature of the patent -- i.e.
I could have seen it defensible had he actually limited it to
M:tG, but by making everything vague, far-reaching terminology,
he steps on the toes of games that have existed for years. As
an example: let's find a game where everyone puts together a deck
of "game components" (the patent never refers to actual cards)
from a common pool, then brings them into play turn by turn using
certain restrictions, all to represent a conflict.
Sounds like "Pursue the Pennant" to me: there's the common pool
(the set of major league baseball players on cards), the orderly
play procedure (batting order?), etc.
>And they plan to sue everyone else who puts out a CCG? That's insane? It
>also sounds like a fast way for WoTC to burn off all their profits in
>court battles (or more likely, drive everyone else out of business).
I'd like for Garfield and Adkisson (sp?) to take a look at the Rollins White
patent, a classic example of the problems with screwy litigation.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:37:49 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Official Rulings (was Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 12:15 PM 12/21/97 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:
>One may feel that the PTO should not have patented the CCG, but that is a
>different story. Remember that this is the same PTO that briefly allowed
>a patent on Hypertext. Frankly, I cannot think of a valid objection to
>the patent -- it was a novel idea that was not obvious that met a market
>need. The only question now is whether the claim is overly broad, but I
>doubt that a court would agree that it is.
Well, I prefer to let people decide for themselves. Here's the document in
question. As I've pointed out, the exemplary claims seem to basically all
conform to the "Pursue the Pennant" fantasy baseball game, thanks to the
vague language; I'm not a patent lawyer, but I've always been under the
impression that a 10-year old product which "infringes" on a new "invention"
sorta invalidates any patentability, and the copyright on the older product
creates a "54th Street" proof ("the Copyright Office, a branch of the
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, says that ...") of its prior existence
=================================================================
5662332 : Trading card game method of play
INVENTORS: Garfield; Richard Channing, Portland, OR
ASSIGNEES: Wizards of the Coast, Inc., Renton, WA
ISSUED: Sep. 2 , 1997
FILED: Oct. 17, 1995
SERIAL NUMBER: 544306
MAINT. STATUS:
INTL. CLASS (Ed. 6): A63F 1/00;
U.S. CLASS: 273-308
FIELD OF SEARCH: 273-244,245,246,247,259,277,298,292,308 ;
AGENTS: Graham & James LLP/Riddell Williams P.S.;
=================================================================
ABSTRACT: Provided herein is a novel method of game play and
game components that in one embodiment are in the form of trading
cards (10, 12, 40, 42, 44, 48, 54, 60, 64). However, the game
components may take other forms, such as a board game, or the
game may be played in different media, such as electronic games,
video games, computer games, and interactive network. In one
version, the game components comprise energy or mana cards 40
and command or spell cards (10, 12, 42, 44, 48, 54, 60, 64)
having commands or spells associated therewith that utilize the
energy to enable a player to attack, defend and modify the effect
of other mana cards, spell cards, and the fundamental rules of
play. The goal of the game is to reduce the life points of other
players to a level below one. In this game of strategy and
chance, players construct their own library of cards, preferably
from trading cards, and play their library or deck of cards
against the deck of cards of an opposing player. Cards may be
obtained from retail outlets, trading with other players or
collectors, and winning cards at games and tournaments.
U.S. REFERENCES: (No patents reference this one)
Patent No. Inventor Issued Title
4486022 Dixon 12 /1984 Sports board games
5071136 Lott 12 /1991 Collectable sports card board game
5145173 Crowder 9 /1992 Baseball game
5201525 Castro 4 /1993 Card game utilizing baseball trading cards
EXEMPLARY CLAIM(s): Show all 6 claims
=================================================================
The embodiments of the invention in which an exclusive property
or privilege is claimed are defined as follows:
1. A method of playing games involving two or more players, the
method being suitable for games having rules for game play that
include instructions on drawing, playing, and discarding game
components, and a reservoir of multiple copies of a plurality of
game components, the method comprising the steps of:
each player constructing their own library of a
predetermined number of game components by examining and
selecting game components from the reservoir of game
components;
each player obtaining an initial hand of a predetermined
number of game components by shuffling the library of
game components and drawing at random game components
from the player's library of game components;
and each player executing turns in sequence with other
players by drawing, playing, and discarding game
components in accordance with the rules until the game
ends, said step of executing a turn comprises:
(a) making one or more game components from the
player's hand of game components available for
play by taking the one or more game components
from the player's hand and placing the one or
more game components on a playing surface; and
(b) bringing into play one or more of the
available game components by:
(i) selecting one or more game components; and
(ii) designating the one or more game
components being brought into play by
rotating the one or more game components
from an original orientation to a second
orientation.
RELATED U.S. APPLICATIONS:
Patent No. Appl No. Issue Date
263447
FOREIGN APPLICATION PRIORITY DATA: none
FOREIGN REFERENCES:
Document No. Country Date Intl. Class
497223 EPO 8 /1992
OTHER REFERENCES: none
PRIMARY/ASSISTANT EXAMINERS: Stoll; William E.;
ADDED TO DATABASE: Sep. 3 , 1997
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 02:44:26 EST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
In a message dated 97-12-21 02:24:07 EST, you write:
<<
>In a message dated 97-12-19 17:09:35 EST, you write:
<snip>
>If you change a normal human
>(25-50 points) into a vampire (let's see anyone make an effective
vampire for
>25 points)
<snip>
As you wish.:)
Actually, my method gives you a workable vampire for ZERO points.
That's right, zero.
Step one: You use Transformation to make the human into a vampire. The
vampire has certain basic traits. The vampire is a character of a
greater power level than the original, _but with no additional
points_. That's right, no extra points. Thus, anyone who becomes a
vampire is at least a Super Hero Character, with stronger characters
going up two levels, to a maximum of high-powered Superhero.
Superheroes will find that being vampires may interfere with their
abilities in some way, at least in the short run. Thus, high powered
superheroes being incapable of taking more Disadvantages, lose other
super powers until they can pay to get them back.
Step two: The vampire has vampiric powers, for no points. Buy whatever
vampiric powers you like, and give the vampire zero points for them.
This gives the vampire powers to put points into, when he gets the
points, but gives him nothing that costs points.
Step three: The vampire is given standard vampiric Disadvantages.
Depending upon your campaign, these may include Fear of Holy Items,
Susceptibility to Sunlight, Susceptibility to silver, etc. Pick
whatever is appropriate to your campaign. You should easily get 75 pts
in Disadvantages out of this.
Step four: Give the vampire these actual powers:
15 EC: Vampire
15 Total Life Support
15 3 BODY/Turn Regeneration
19 1d6 Transfer BODY increased maximum Transfer on both Transfer
powers, points return at 5/ day.
19 1d6 Transfer EGO to previously mentioned Vampiric Powers, points
return at 5/ day.
14 N-ray Vision, only to see in the dark (-1/2)
3 +3 STR, or whatever you want
100 Total Cost
>>
So you're using Transform to change a 25 point character into a 100 point
character and you're *not* increasing the point total????? Remember, we're
talking about changing a normal into an effective vampire with Transform.
Also, you can't give someone a power on their character sheet without paying
points for it... there's mininum costs to deal with. If you don't have the
minimum costs, you don't have the power, and no amount of Transfer will
increase it to usable levels, since it doesn't exist.
I do like your idea though, about the powers being baseline weak and dependent
on blood intake, but IMHO, there are many more powers a vampire should have
that need to be included in your base set list... like a HKA for the fangs,
for instance... fangs aren't just used for the 'transfer' of the power, they
also make handy weapons, and shouldn't be dependent upon how much blood the
vampire has drunk.
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 02:56:05 EST
Subject: Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< This is a simplistic answer.>>
It was a vague question.
Mark @ GRG
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 00:50:16 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Mage-style magic in Hero...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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How would you do Mage-style (from White Wolf's Mage:The Ascension,
one of the Noun:The Noun series of games) magic in Hero? I ask
because I've always been of the opinion ANYTHING can be done in Hero,
but this one is stumping me.
In short, there are nine 'spheres' of power, such as Life, Matter,
Forces, Entropy, etc. Spells are created 'on the fly' and the GM
decides which spheres are involved and how much skill is needed in
each sphere. There is also a lot of overlap...something which might
require Forces I could be simulated by Entropy III, for example. I
could kill you with a lightning bolt (Forces) or by stopping your
heart (Life) or by aging you in seconds (Entropy), but even if all of
these did the same damage, they'd require different skill levels in
the spheres.
Further, there's the issue of Paradox. Basically, people don't
believe in magic. So, if you do 'obvious' magic (such as shooting a
lightning bolt), you risk a serious backlash. This is easy enough in
Hero -- Side Effects. But the same spell, in game terms, can also be
done 'coincidentally' -- so instead of shooting lightning bolts from
your fingers, someone 'accidently' steps on the third rail and is
fried. The difference is in what people see, not what actually
happens. So sometimes there are side effects, sometimes, there are
not.
Could anyone familiar with Mage give me some ideas on how to model
this in Hero? Since spells are created dynamically, a VPP is
obviously the basis, but the limitations/advantages on it are giving
me a headache. Possibly a VPP where the powers you create require
multiple skill rolls, said skill rolls based on what Spheres are
involved and how complex the task is for each sphere. Oy.
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Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:42:36 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Regeneration of Limbs, and Body Parts
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Vance Scott wrote:
>
>
> Thus human's are unable to regenerate organs, or limbs. This is why
> you buy the power Regeneration to provide full, and complete
> Regeneration not speed our limited natural regenerative abilities..
Just to restate where we came from, there is no argument that, if you
want the ability to regrow limbs, some variation on Regeneration is
appropriate. The question is entirely whether for a mere 10 points one
should have, in addition to the ability to be healed from death's door to
full health in only six minutes, the ability to regrow a lost limb
completely in the same time, or whether one needs an advantage.
>> In fact, this usage is not limited to dry academics: note that
>> "Regenerators" in Star Trek are used
> ...
> Aside from that, Star Trek isn't the most reliable source of
> scientific, or even symantic information. ^
Oh, be reasonable! I did not cite Star Trek for real-world science, nor
for real-world semantics. SF literature and RPGs often have usages that
differ from real-world usages. Star Trek is a not-insignificant part of
the genre, and I clearly stated for what purpose I was considering it.
>
> > > The Regenerate power is over priced in comparison to Aid.
> > Surely, you mean, "underpriced?"
>
> Nope over priced.
>
> > 25 1D6 Aid + 30 max, with a fixed roll of 2 (+0 SFX).
>
> A fixed roll of 2 is artifically damaging to an Aid Regeneration
> comparison since an average roll on a d6 is 3.5 not 2.
Yes, but insurance always costs something. I generally allow a fixed
roll of 3 per die, where warranted by special effect. I would not be
averse to a -1/4 limitation in this case, but I think that -1/2 would be
too much.
>
> > 0 END/Persistent(+1) Uncontrolled(+1/2) [50 active]
>
> It isn't necessary to buy both Uncontrolled, and Persistant as they
> both provide a similiar effect.
Checking the rules more carefully, I note that Aid is not a continuous
power, and so the advantage Continuous(+1) is required. Once that is
purchased, then the power should be bought Uncontrolled (since the power
normally requires an attack action, even if used on oneself).
I also forgot to add Triggered/damage(+1/4), which is required because
Regeneration does not take an action to use. We can assume that there is
a phase to reset the power between battles.
>
> > Extra Time/turn(-1)
>
> This limitation robs aid of it greatest advantage over regeneration
> acting per phase instead of per turn. The addition of this limitation
> is unneccessary, and arbitarily handicaps Aid.
Excuse me? I am trying to create virtually the same effect using two
powers: Aid and Regeneration. This is the only valid way to compare two
powers. Since I cannot speed up Regeneration, I must slow down Aid.
>
> > and that doesn't even quite do it, since the Regeneration has *no* upper
> > limit, but I concede that few characters take more than 36 BODY per
> > month.
>
> True, but regeneration's lack of an upper limit becomes moot if
> you're dead. Most champions characters have a body of 10-13.
If your adventures are all one-battle adventures, with plenty of time in
between, then a smaller limit will do; however, if your PCs are often
following up leads and fighting several smaller battles within a month,
then those extra points are the *primary* advantage of Regeneration over
Aid.
>
>
> A proper Aid simulating Regeneration.
With my corrections added.
>
> 24 Aid vs. Body 1d6 cp (5cp), + 38 cp to maximum restoration (19cp)
> +1 Invisible Power Effects
> +1/2 0 EnduranceCost
I hadn't thought of IPE. Good point. Even though one can see the
effects of the Regeneration, there should be no obvious use of power, and
nothing to interfere with using Stealth while the power is going.
> +1/2 Persistant
+1 Continuous for reasons above stated.
+1/2 Uncontrolled (requires some way to stop it)
+1/4 Triggered by Damage
> 72 cp
102 active points.
> -1 Only usable vs. Self (As Aid is usable vs. Other a +1 advantage
> it seemed fair to reverse this value.)
-1/4 Usable on Others is only +1/4, after all.
> -1/2 Only restore to Starting Value
> -1/2 Always On - Can't Push, and may cause difficulties with
> Disguises, and Secret Identities. Wounds healing if front of
> others is a give-away.
I would not allow a limitation for Always On for this power, especially
if bought IPE.
> 24 cp Grand Total
57 Real Points
> Assuming an average speed of 4 and an average roll 3.5 this would
> regenerate a total of 14 cp a turn, or 7 body.
The choice of average SPD depends heavily on campaign and character
concept, which is why I elected to use the Extra Time limitation
to bring the two into sync. Suppose that a character has a SPD of 3,
then we get 5.25 BODY/turn, for a total of 50 points of Regeneration,
which just a smidgen cheaper than the Aid, which is measurably less
powerful.
Regeneration is the only way under the Hero System to purchase
accelerated healing. To get limb regrowth too, for no points, strikes me
as unbalancing.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
X-Sender: ghost@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 03:49:26 -0600
From: Bryce Berggren <ghost@softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:49 AM 12/21/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
> Now, back to Hero stuff... The fact that the "perception" was allowed to
>become false rumors is the responsibility of the people who jumped to a false
>conclusion and spread "assumptions" as "facts." That's irresponsible. But I
>agree we need to do more, also, to get the word out. Part of the problem is,
>some folks don't even believe *us*! :D
(sigh) Perceptions and rumors and lions and tigers and bears out the window.
Here's some hard facts:
a) There are 6 hobby/gaming stores within a reasonable drive of myself, and
two more I drive to anyway (one out by my sister's college, the other in
Waukegan where I used to game), plus numerous Waldenbooks, Kroch's, etc. that
I've purchased RPG materials at in the past few months. /One/ of them had HERO
materials of any kind in the store, and it was buried in the back in an old
box.
b) Hero Games repeatedly stated during the marshmallow roast following the
Fuzion announcement that Fuzion/C:TNM was necessary because Champions just
wasn't selling.
c) C:TNM has already gotten more distributor and advertising support than
I ever saw for HERO. To put it another way, Hero Games has tried to sell
Fuzion to me, whereas I had to go out and buy HERO.
I don't mind your frustration over trying to sell to a market that doesn't
understand you're still there, but please don't blame it on the market. The
blame rests squarely on the shoulders of the original source.
H. G.
He beats his fists against the posts
and still insists he sees the ghosts
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:56:06 -0800 (PST)
Cc: goldrushg@aol.com, champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Hey kids,
It's been quite a while since I've been active on this list. Life's
been busy. But I thought I'd comment since the folks from GoldRush Games
seem quite honestly interested in hearing from us. Intelligence like that
deserves to be rewarded :-).
> GoldRushG wrote:
> > So what can we (GRG) do about this negative perception of Hero
> > products and the surivability of 4th Edition? I'm open to
> > suggestions (but please re-title any posts that drift from the
> > topic <G>).
Okay, you have to address some basic problems.
Marketing is critical. I hate it, you're probably not fond of
it, most of the people on this list are probably on the other side of
the table from Marketing, but the simple fact of the matter is that
good marketing can make a mediocre product, mediocre marketing can
break a good product (look at Microsoft :-).
What can you do? First is upgrading your image; make it slick,
make it sexy. Get some top-flight graphic designers laying out the
books (they're better now than in the past, but you have only to pick
up some of the top work to see how far there is to go). Get some of
the top independent comic artists to do covers, interior art (*lots*
of interior art), posters, supplemental material. Sure, that'll cost.
It'll cost even more to not have it.
Think about crafting your entire image. Sure, this is about
comic books, but that doesn't mean it has to be "cartoony". Contrast
The Dark Knight Returns with the (relatively recent) Batman afternoon
cartoon series. You want *your* product to drip with the coolth that
TDKR had, or at least a reasonable facimile (I don't expect DC to be
too helpful to you :-). Check out other material, like the Marshall
Law series, some of the top sellers today, and look at some of the
top selling RPG products as well.
Take a leaf from White Wolf. Their audience tends to be far too
melodramatic for my tastes, and their systems are rather fractured,
but damn, they have that marketing angle down pat. The image they
project wins half - maybe more - their battles. Sure, they produce
imaginative supplements and expand their line, but I'm sure all of the
supplements they produce are carefully chosen to augment their overall
image, and the content - the ideas, details and information in each
supplement, and the way it's written and presented - is a powerful
piece of marketing in itself.
You want your stuff to look so cool that retailers will *want* to
give it star billing and premium shelf space, because it makes *their*
shop look cool. This will dramatically increase your visibility in
the stores. Add some cool promotional material and you'll have even
better visibility. I know saying "cool" over and over again sounds
immature, but guess what, so is your audience.
Advertise. Develop a market presence, and enhance it. Yes,
advertising in top-selling comics would be nice, if you had the money,
but far more important is all the little efforts, the constant pushing
and skull-sweat. Posters and fliers and promotional material sent to
distributors and retailers and cons and gaming clubs. Try to have a
constant flow of products coming out, and promote each one, before it
comes out, as it comes out, and after it comes out. Demonstrate
continuing signs of life. Develop and enhance your distribution
channels; these can be *everything* for a company.
And yes, you will have to advertise via traditional channels,
some. Start small, work your way up. Try advertising in fairly small
comics that have solidly loyal readerships that fit in with your
demographic - what *is* your demographic, by the way? Do you know?
If not, better figure it out. If you don't know who you're selling
to, how do you know how, where, and what to sell? Try including
survey cards in your products, and running web-based surveys. Ask
players how much gaming stuff they buy, what other things they buy
(comics, fiction, anime, videogames, etc). Figure out what your best
bet is.
The best way to get people to fill out surveys is simply to offer
them something. Make it big, make it small. Raffle off a dozen
pieces of original art (i.e. each survey respondent gets entered into
the drawing) or give out a thousand posters to the first thousand
respondents. I know this from some personal experience trying to get
readers - even highly motivated readers, professional developers whose
careers depended on hou good our products were - to respond to reader
card surveys.
You're using the 'net. This is good. Put good supplemental
information on the 'net, because 'net folks tend to have a higher
percentage of gamers and they also have a higher amount of disposable
income. The 'net is a beautiful medium for your sort of product,
because your cost-of-printing is a serious budget issue. You can put
lots of cool stuff up on a web site, things that couldn't make it into
the printed version. Measure that activity too - ask users if they'd
buy supplements with that information. See what kind of response you
get. This will allow you to measure areas that you don't have a
chance to measure through normal channels. Topics and types of
supplements that don't have physical analogs for you to watch.
Darrin Kelley writes:
> [...a lot of stuff about Fuzion deleted for brevity...]
> But there is a general complaint that I have had with most of the
> Champions supplements that needs to be addressed also. Most of the books
> have been collections of characters or weaponry. Very few, if ever, have
> managed to capture the heroic element that is so integral to the genre
> itself. In fact, even the Champions rulebook itself, has never really
> done anything to illustrate that element. What I believe needs to be
> done in a 5th Edition, besides some rules fixes and the addition of more
> examples, is a better and more detailed explanation of the superhero
> genre and the very atmosphere itself. Especially with emphasis put on
> the heroic element itself.
Too true.
Image is more than just art and layout. As some others have
commented, the content has to work for the image too. Most of the
Hero material, historically, has been very nuts 'n bolts oriented. I
like that, but I recognize that I'm weird. Stuff I like is not going
to endear the material to the general public (or even to the narrower-
but-still-far-different-than-I gaming public). As long as the content
is still there, I and people like me will have no problem living with
the form. The text and the organization needs to be focused on
creating the atmosphere that will sell the product and the product
line.
Part of this is very practical nuts 'n bolts issues. The game
system is unwieldly to learn, action is slow until everybody becomes
practiced. Some of this is unavoidable. Some can certainly be, not
eliminated, but worked around to "jumpstart" players into the game.
For example, most supplements do not supply nearly enough
information for the characters and constructs within. They give a
blob of numbers and stats and maybe half a page of background and
leave the rest to the GM. A neophyte GM is definitely *not* going to
find this easy to work with. Also, most supplements give the bare
bones of stats necessary and assume the GM will work up whatever else
is needed, on the fly, as it comes up. Again, a neophyte GM is not
going to find it easy going.
What it boils down to is, it takes a lot of experience with and
knowledge of the system before a player - even an experienced RPGer -
will feel comfortable running their own game. Remove that barrier
to entry and you'll see more games starting up. How about producing
a supplement full of information about "everyday" life? Both stats
and actual background data.
For example, what are the typical game stats for police vehicles?
Police weapons? How big is a typical police station? Where are they
usually located? How quickly will they usually respond to calls?
What about national guard armories? Military bases? Intelligence
organizations? The FBI? How much police protection is usually
present at a courthouse in a large urban center? You can't expect the
GM to be an aficianado of crime & crime-stopping techniques. Think
about the typical things that might come up in planning a scenario.
Build a supplement that covers these topics.
A tall order, I realize, but something to plan for the future.
Meanwhile, build your individual supplements with a lot more
information, make a lot less assumptions about what the GM will be
able to wing for him/herself. Also, think about describing villains
in practical terms, what they can do, how to use them, how they think
and what strategies they use. Include the stats at the end, but
describe the powers and abilities in normal english, first, and point
out weaknesses, implications, ways the powers work or don't work.
Don't assume that the GM will work them out.
I find most supplements useless because they don't supply that
sort of information. It's no great challenge working things out
myself (I've been playing this game a *long* time) but if I'm going to
do all the work, what's the point in buying the supplement? More
importantly, what's the neophyte GM going to do? One of the old
supplements, can't remember its name, was very popular because it was
essentially a huge pile of campaign notes from one particular campaign
("Allstars" or something like that?). I suspect it was popular
precisely because it contained a lot of the normally assumed
information.
Additionally, there are numerous tactics for speeding up the
awkward game mechanics. Yes, as you learn them things speed up, but
by then it's too late. Include some discussion of tactics and
strategies for speeding up character building and combat. Include
more information in predigested format, for example if you have a
"standard" hero team then include a combat sheet with dex/speed charts
and everything, pre-filled in with the standard heroes and the
villains from the supplement. Include a set of "cheat sheets" for the
villains, short summaries of critical combat numbers and powers that
the GM can use to refer to while running combat, instead of flipping
through the supplement.
For character building, one excellent GM I know always keeps a
folder full of "generic" characters around to hand to new players.
Generic brick, generic martial artist, generic energy projector, etc.
Their powers are fairly vanilla to a long-time player, but he gives
them interesting descriptions, backgrounds, personalities (e.g. one
was a brick who had been a professional hockey goalie [Friday the
13th, anybody?]. His big schtick was 20 extra BODY with the special
effect/limitation "legally dead at 0 body". His hobby was
wallpapering his room with death certificates. A boring character by
the numbers, but fun for a newbie to play.
Take a generic, give it a quirk or two, and the new player can
have a ball without going crazy trying to learn a system. Include a
substantial library of heroes in the book. And a separate substantial
library of villains - I never did find that hero/villain approach from
4th edition very effective. An nice idea in theory - keep the players
on their toes, they can't make assumptions. But an experienced GM
doesn't need it and an inexperienced GM probably isn't really ready to
take advantage of it. Just include two separate sets of characters.
Heroes that don't get used can be NPCs. Speaking of which, include
some background and suggested NPC uses for each hero.
As far as speeding up combat, you can suggest some simple tactics
to help the neophyte GM speed up the process - like always making a
dex chart at the beginning of every session. You can also use this
process as a "role call" of sorts, helping the players focus on the
game. You can suggest some shortcuts, like having the GM just roll
his own die to decide which same dex/speed character goes first, or
only doing it once per adventure until they're up to speed.
You could include a "kit" - or sell it separately, although that
seems like something of an oxymoron since it's intended for new
players - of tools to speed up play. I used to have a file full of
ideas for this sort of thing - starting with using a large 12-sided
die to keep track of phases. Another thought is to build a "deck" of
combat maneuver cards. Each card has all the pertinent details,
almost like a card game. Each player gets a deck of cards and can use
them to choose what they'll do, lay them down in front of their
character sheet so the GM and players can remember what they're doing,
what modifiers to apply, etc. Likewise the GM might have some cards
(like a "character prone" card, or an "entangled" card, etc).
It'd be fairly easy for the GM to build their own decks of cards
out of index cards, and in fact I've done this once or twice just for
fun. But I'm not your target audience, and the people who are your
targt audience won't be experienced enough to build their own decks.
So provide some cards for them.
I've always found the "cardboard heroes" from Steve Jackson Games
to be great for increasing the feel of the game. Giving a new player
a concrete image to focus on helps them get into the swing of things.
Villains & Vigilantes used flat cardboard counters for a similar
purpose. Perhaps you could work out an agreement with SJG to let you
distribute your own version of cardboard heroes with the Champions
book.
I understand that a lot of these are ideas that would involve
serious revision to existing material, and that GRG simply may not be
able to afford that, yet. While I think the whole "new look" idea is
too important to put off, perhaps in the meantime you could put a lot
of these concepts together into a "starter pack", bundled with a
purchase of the BBB, specifically marketed & targeted at new players.
Make sure you have a stack of starter packs available at each big
convention, and make sure you ask the GMs of each hero game at the con
to mention it to the players. Maybe give each GM a dozen discount
coupons to hand out to deserving players.
Well, that's enough for one night. As you can see, these are
simple ideas with lots of implications, but it boils down to three
things. One, develop your image. Two, promote the hell out of it.
Three, make it more practically easy for new players to get into the
game.
Do all of these. Don't imagine you can let any one element
slide. You're going to have to rework the material to develop a new
image anyway, so you might as well enhance the content to lower the
barriers to entry for new players. I know about the kind of work
involved; I've published half a dozen books as a professional
technical writer, so I'm not ignorant of the implications of what I'm
saying. But doing this will make your success.
Steven J. Owens
puff@netcom.com
puff@rt1.net
http://www.rt1.net/puff
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:57:50 -0800
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Saturday, December 20, 1997 10:59 PM, Firelynx16 wrote:
>In a message dated 97-12-21 02:24:07 EST, you write:
>
><<
> >In a message dated 97-12-19 17:09:35 EST, you write:
> <snip>
> >If you change a normal human
> >(25-50 points) into a vampire (let's see anyone make an effective
> vampire for
> >25 points)
> <snip>
>
> As you wish.:)
>
> <<Actually, my method gives you a workable vampire for ZERO points.
> That's right, zero.>>
<snip>
>
>So you're using Transform to change a 25 point character into a 100
point
>character and you're *not* increasing the point total????? Remember,
we're
>talking about changing a normal into an effective vampire with
Transform.
Well, it depends upon how you look at it. I said it gave a vampire for
zero points, but "gave" and "zero points" are unclear and debatable
terms. There are several arguments that could be made, but I'll admit
they are all stretching things a bit. However, virtually all arguments
on the subject allow for adding points, so long as they are balanced
by Disadvantages. I do that.
>Also, you can't give someone a power on their character sheet without
paying
>points for it... there's mininum costs to deal with. If you don't
have the
>minimum costs, you don't have the power, and no amount of Transfer
will
>increase it to usable levels, since it doesn't exist.
Hmm. There seems to be some disagreement on this point. Some people
think that you should be able to do such a thing, but many think that
it should be at half power.
>I do like your idea though, about the powers being baseline weak and
dependent
>on blood intake, but IMHO, there are many more powers a vampire
should have
>that need to be included in your base set list... like a HKA for the
fangs,
>for instance... fangs aren't just used for the 'transfer' of the
power, they
>also make handy weapons, and shouldn't be dependent upon how much
blood the
>vampire has drunk.
Well, actually, I think a HKA is a rotten way to represent fangs. When
was the last time you saw a vampire bite down a door; bite someone's
arm off, bite themselves free from chains, or any use of the fangs
except creating small punctures to drain blood? If a vampire's fangs
are useful only for making tiny punctures to allow the sucking of
blood, then a Transfer with a slow return isn't unreasonable. You
still lose BODY either way. Additionally, after killing the first
victim, my vampire could have those other powers.
You could add some things to my vampire. For example, you could give
him more points by using the Transform to reduce all abilities already
existing to a minimum, and turn them into points. Then, claim that the
vampire awakens in a dazed, animal state, and only "clears his mind"
with the drinking of blood. If you want to create usable vampires,
then you protect them until they are strong enough to hunt on their
own.
However, I have a solution to the problem of minimum costs. Instead of
a +3 STR, try this:
3 VPP, 2 pt pool, Only for Vampiric powers (-1/2)
The Transfer to Vampiric Powers feeds directly to the pool.
Now you have the necessary minimum in everything.:) (Please don't tell
me this is a rotten idea, I already know that. It's intended to be
humorous, though it could be useful for a character who has enormous
versatility, but is an incredible wimp unless fed power.)
Hmmm.
Socket Man
Socket Man was granted the power to create incredibly versatile cosmic
effects by aliens, but the aliens left before they could give him a
power source. Since he has the ability to accept the power the power
source would have given him, he solves this problem by plugging
himself into a wall socket.
15 VPP(5), Cosmic (+2)
17 1d6 Absorption, +10 max., feeds to maximum Absorption and VPP,
fade 5/day (+1 1/2), only vs electricity (-1/2)
Since wall sockets do damage, he could charge up quickly with this
power to an absolutely enormous power level.
Make him a bit of a wimp, and he could be bought as a Normal.:)
Filksinger
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 04:20:17 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Official Rulings (was Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:47 PM 12/21/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< You have got to be kidding. How could WoTC patent the idea of the CCG? >>
>
> They aren't. They're patenting the way *their* CCGs are played (turning
> cards to represent "tapping," etc.). It's supposed to promote "original"
> CCG designs, according to Adkinson.
Uh, no. The patent is clearly aimed at patenting "customizability" as its
central focus (the only thing specific to M:tG is "reorienting" cards to
indicate use). And Peter Adkinson has said ("Parting Shot", PREVIEWS) that
he intends to go balls to the wall on ALL CCGs -- he considers it something
in the way of a moral obligation to gaming to keep us "original". :/
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 03:35:00 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Cry for Vehicle Help
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Nic Neidenbach wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm running a game tonight, and I need a write up for a V-TOL. It needs to
> carry about a dozen heroes, fly pretty fast, and have some armor. I'm in
> such a rush to get the adventure finished, I don't think I'll have time to
> puzzle though the rules for vehicles. Anyone have something laying around
> they can email me?
Bob! Bob! This is your cue! It's what you were *meant* to do!
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:02:11 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition thoughts
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 08:10 PM 12/18/97, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:36:46 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>>>DUPLICATION: one heals a lost duplicate as if the points were BODY or must
>>>define a given circumstance to get the dead duplicate back... you should
not
>>>lose points for having a duplicate killed any more
>>
>> Good idea. Permanently dead Duplicates should take a Limitation.
>
>Yes, just like Independent (-2)
Similar to, perhaps, but not the same. There are characteristics to
Independent that I'm not sure belong on a Duplicate (though I could be
mistaken here; I'd have to read through the description, and I'm not going
to have a whole lot of time for that kind of thing until the New Year).
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:05:35 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:04 AM 12/20/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "TB" == Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> writes:
>
>>> Seriously, it reads, "however, Transform shouldn't be used to create
>>> useful things like weapons or gold."
>
>TB> A restriction which appears with reference specifically to using
>TB> Transform to _create_ things.
>
>No, a reference to using Tranform to create *useful* things -- to wit,
>things that cost character points. If it costs points, you should not use
>Transformation to achieve that end.
On this specific point, I have to agree with you here, Rat. When
creating out of thin air something which costs points, I tend to go with
Summon.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:14:09 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Building A Super Hero World
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 04:18 AM 12/21/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote:
>WatchTower is a global organization dedicating to combating Super
>Human and related threats. The group is semi private. It traces
>it's origins to a private group formed after the second world war.
The only feedback I can think of to give you right off the top of my
head isa recommendation of changing the organization's name. It's a good
name in principle, but also happens to be the name of the publishing arm
for the Jehovah's Witnesses.
As a replacement, I suggest WatchGuard.
As for a reason to ban super-soldiers, I'm about as lost as you are.
Perhaps a couple of incidents where they went berserk or at least rogue
(which could become the basis for one or more villains), and/or a human
rights outcry against experimenting on humans to create the super-soldiers
(in which case android super-soldiers might still be legal, if impractical).
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:18:01 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Changing +1/2 to +0.5
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 07:58 PM 12/20/97 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote:
[Well-written desription cut]
>How 'bout it, folks? Good idea/bad idea?
Good idea in principle, but too radical of a change for official
publication such as in a 5th edition of Hero.
However, you might consider writing it up as an article (with value
descriptions for all existing Advantages and Limitations) and submitting it
to either one of the various fanzines and APAzines floating around, or to
Digital Hero.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:30:49 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Cry for Vehicle Help
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 03:35 AM 12/21/97 -0800, Captain Spith wrote:
>Nic Neidenbach wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm running a game tonight, and I need a write up for a V-TOL. It needs to
>> carry about a dozen heroes, fly pretty fast, and have some armor. I'm in
>> such a rush to get the adventure finished, I don't think I'll have time to
>> puzzle though the rules for vehicles. Anyone have something laying around
>> they can email me?
>
> Bob! Bob! This is your cue! It's what you were *meant* to do!
Oh, right! No pressure, eh? :-]
Unfortunately, I think I'm too late, but I can just expand a little on
the write-ups Michael Surbrook has done for the Moller vehicles (see his
website):
Val CHA Cost
40 STR 0
16 BODY 0
6 Size 30
12 DEF 30
20 DEX 30
4 SPD 10
Characteristics Cost: 100
Cost Equipment
70 VTOL Flight: +30" Flight (36" Total), 8X NCM
2 Radio Listen/Transmit, OIF
3 Parchute: Gliding 8", Trigger: when engines fail, OAF, steep decline
(-1)
Equipment Cost: 75
Total Vehicle Cost: 175
Flavor with Disadvantages to taste.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:38:48 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: National Super Teams
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:12 AM 12/21/97 +1000, happyelf wrote:
>>>PS: My national super team can kick your national super team any day *l*
>>*j/k*
>>
>> Without even seeing what Phase II is like (they've never been published;
>>Champions Down Under has never been more than a suggestion), there's little
>>doubt that they (or any other national superteam, like the Sentinels and
>>the New Knights) could beat the stuffing out of Executive Sanction. But I
>>gather they concentrate less on pitched battle (leaving that to PRIMUS) and
>>concentrate on investigation and such things.
>
>WHAT?!?!?! who the heck thought of phase two??!?! and
>as fer champs down under? data please *g*
Phase II was first mentioned in Champions Universe, and also were
mentioned in the VIPER sourcebook. As for who thought of them, I don't know.
In his description of Captain Australia in Hero System Almanac I, Scott
Heine mentioned in passing that *someone* should write a Champions Down Under.
BTW according to the CU sources, Phase II is only the government's
official superhero team; there's also an independent team in the Outback
who call themselves the Outriders.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:40:09 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: New Limitation: Puncture
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:15 AM 12/20/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
>F> When an attack takes Puncture, it loses its ability to make big holes.
>F> Examples include rapiers and most firearms. An attack using Puncture
>F> makes small holes only.
>
>You've obviously never seen the massive tissue deformation caused by most
>firearms, especially those with hollowpoints.
By "small holes," I think he means as opposed to a tunnel.
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:45:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Official Rulings (was Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 20 Dec 1997, Brian Wong wrote:
>
> 1. WoTC bought TSR
> 2. WoTC patented CCG's
> a. WoTC announced that ALL CCG's must pay them a licencing fee.
> b. WoTC has said they will be very agressive about pursuing this
You have got to be kidding. How could WoTC patent the idea of the CCG? I
could see patenting and Trademarking Magic... but every form of CCG?
And they plan to sue everyone else who puts out a CCG? That's insane? It
also sounds like a fast way for WoTC to burn off all their profits in
court battles (or more likely, drive everyone else out of business).
> 3. One could make the logic leap that they attempt to claim this right
> for the RPG market due to now owning TSR.
Impossible. They are starting too late and RPGs are too variable in
style. Besides, I do believe they'd run into some very serious opposition
from other companies (amd White Wolf probably has the bucks to fight
them).
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:47:52 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:43 PM 12/20/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< What about advertising on some of the larger, well trafficked Hero
>related web sites? >>
>
> That would be up to the web site owners. A banner ad would be very nice...
>:)
It would also be fine by me. I'm expecting to have an update (yes,
finally!) around the middle of next month. :-]
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:55:09 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:44 PM 12/20/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< Mark, people are only telling you what they perceive, not what is really
>happening>>
>
> Oh, I understand. I apologize if I came across wrong. I do want to know
what
>their perceptions are. It's the best way to know how to approach the
marketing
>angle in order to correct some of the misconceptions.
How about this?: Advertise Hero's return (yes, it has been gone, if
only for a short while) with a poster showing Seeker (the Aussie one),
katana in hand and a grimly determined look on his face, rising from the
rubble of a crushed building, badly injured but clearly ready and able to
continue a fight, with the captaion, "We're not dead yet!"
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 10:44:51 -0500 (EST)
From: dq831@freenet.carleton.ca (Jamie Rosen)
Subject: Re: Building A Super Hero World
Reply-To: dq831@freenet.carleton.ca
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
>
>At 04:18 AM 12/21/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote:
>>WatchTower is a global organization dedicating to combating Super
>>Human and related threats. The group is semi private. It traces
>>it's origins to a private group formed after the second world war.
>
> The only feedback I can think of to give you right off the top of my
>head isa recommendation of changing the organization's name. It's a good
>name in principle, but also happens to be the name of the publishing arm
>for the Jehovah's Witnesses.
> As a replacement, I suggest WatchGuard.
Ick. I think WatchTower is much better...sure, the Jehovah's Witnesses
publishing arm is called that. It's also a real word, which (IMHO) can do
wonders for the believability of a fictional organization.
> As for a reason to ban super-soldiers, I'm about as lost as you are.
>Perhaps a couple of incidents where they went berserk or at least rogue
>(which could become the basis for one or more villains), and/or a human
>rights outcry against experimenting on humans to create the super-soldiers
>(in which case android super-soldiers might still be legal, if impractical).
Well, drawing on some IST background, how about "the smaller countries in
the UN saw how the military super teams gave the larger nations an even
bigger advantage, and began petitioning the UN for a ban. The UN put
together an international team made of the 'official' supers from these
smaller countries to help enforce the ban on military supers around the
world."
And don't forget that not all countries are members of the UN, so you will
still have some military supers from 'outlaw nations' running around.
--
Jamie Rosen - author, bad seed, and layabout on rec.arts.comics.creative
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mistake is just experience in the present tense.
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:14:36 -0700
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Off topic good news
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
This is a completely off topic post, but I thought I would share the
information. The movie The Princess Bride is being re-realesed to video
in Feb. For those you you (like me) unfortunate enough not to own a
copy, I just wanted to spread the good news.
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:58:50 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: DP9 Marketing
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>>Imagine 5 meter tall nazi assault robots alongside those panzers.
>
>Almost sounds like one of the Japanese anime I saw Kishin Corps maybe.
>Except some of the mecha they had in there were huge (35m + tall) required a
>crank start and then a lot of vacuum tubes passing a lot of power before the
>main engines got really going and before the next use over half the tubes
>needed replaced. But then what would you expect from vaccuum tubes.....
Well, not quite. The robots in Kishin Corps were generally one-of-a-kind.
Gear Krieg will feature walking assault mecha almost as common as tanks.
To move this back to Champions, the 'aliens' in Kishin Corps had this really
keen plot device - if you shot them, they exploded. But if you cut them with
a sword, they just 'died'. Wonderful game world contrivance to force people
to tote around those swords, neh? :-). Anyway, I'm hoping TUSV will feature
a lot of 'defined' vehicle disadvantages, stuff like Maximum Ceiling,
Maximum Climbing Angle, Requires a Runway...
Say, will the dangerous effects of various propulsion features be explained
as Champs powers? Helicopter blades would be a Burnout HKA linked to Flight,
or an RKA to simulate jetwash, etc. etc...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Subject: Re: So What Now?
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-16,18-20
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:12:32 EST
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>><< But advertising is still a good idea. Game magazines is one way,
>game
>>stores is another. Not everything costs $10,000 >>
>>
>> Yes, I realize that, Scott. My point was only that some forms of
>advertising
>>are a bit beyond our means right now. But I did ask for suggestions
>and I
>>appreciate the ones sent in so far. Keep the ideas coming! :D
>
>What about advertising on some of the larger, well trafficked Hero
>related web sites? Most of them are labors-of-love and I'm sure that
>if you selected a few and asked them to advertise Hero products they
>would be thrilled. Heck, some of them may be willing to allow
>advertising for discounts in products, etc. I'm sure you could work
>something out.
What about web sites run by comic/game stores? Perhaps you could work
out an ad exchange with them.
Leah
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 14:19:50 EST
Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< Try to have a constant flow of products coming out, and promote each one,
before it comes out, as it comes out, and after it comes out.>>
At what point does this become a negative factor, though? I mean, some of
the gripes about Fuzion is that is was over hyped. I'm not saying I agree with
that assertion, but it has been stated here...
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 14:22:57 EST
Subject: Steven J. Owens' Letter
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
(Re: Steven J. Owens' letter)
Although I'm not going to respond to your individual points, I do want to
thank you for your letter. It was obvious to me that you put a lot of time and
thought into it, and I greatly appreciate your comments. In fact, I am printed
it out and am going to punch 3 holes in it and stick it in my "Marketing"
folder.
Mark @ GRG
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Mage-style magic in Hero...
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 21 Dec 1997 14:30:13 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> writes:
L> How would you do Mage-style (from White Wolf's Mage:The Ascension, one
L> of the Noun:The Noun series of games) magic in Hero?
It can be tricky, not because of the mechanics, but because Mage magic is
extremely chaotic. Many of the effects possible are combinations of
Powers, and that can require much time to crunch.
Start with a Variable Power Pool with the ability to reconfigure as a
0-phase action. A skill roll to reconfigure is required.
If the GM wants to save time he and the players can wing it -- which is
what they have to do with Mage anyway -- and guestimate the active cost of
an effect instead of crunching the numbers. If the GM thinks it will fit
in a character's pool, it will, otherwise it will not. Players and GMs
should compile a set of effects that the characters may frequently attempt
to use. That should give everyone a good benchmark for effects created on
the fly.
Each "sphere" is represented by a 3-point skill for a base 11- roll, +1 for
2 points. These skills are used to configure the VPP. Much as in Mage,
the highest ranked sphere required for an effect determines which skill is
rolled to reconfigure the VPP. Lesser spheres may be used as complimentary
skills -- remember that making a skill roll requires a certain ammount of
time, so if you use three or four sphere skills as complimentary skills,
you may requuire several full Turns to cast.
Paradox is handled as Unluck, as acquired as a form of Side Effect
limitation. 'Obvious' magic acquires a Side Effect limitation at half
normal value, because it might not actually slap him. Acquired Unluck
(Paradox) can be "gotten rid of" by trading it for other disadvantages, or
otherwise as per "normal".
It has been almost two years since I've played a Mage mage, so this
probably needs a bit of work to get "right".
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
\
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: New Limitation: Puncture
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 21 Dec 1997 14:34:22 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
F> However, a .44 Magnum cannot make such a hole. Since such a hole is
F> extremely useful at times, it is at least worth noting that this is a
F> limitation, if not a Limitation.
You are not thinking it through. With my .44 Magnum, the most powerful
handgun in the world, I do not need to blow a hole in the door, I just need
to shoot out the lock. :)
It is not a flaw in the rules, it is the -0 SFX advantages/limitations that
any power may have. Some Energy Blasts can blast holes in walls, some
cannot... but the ones that cannot may be used for doing things like being
used at low power to flip a switch or push a button, things that the
"wider" effects cannot do. And before you call me on, "but that is TK!"
let me just mention that it is also clever use of a power. If you do it
once you can get away with it. If you do it frequently, then you have to
pay for it.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
\ head.
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 14:42:01 EST
Subject: Interpol
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< The UN has a branch of Interpol dedicated to dealing with international
Super Crime. While they are global their jurisdiction is limited to
International incidents. The bulk of their forces are non Super in nature. >>
INTERPOL
This is just FYI (and I'm not trying to criticize or invalidate your world
<G>): Interpol, if memory serves, is an independent agency, not linked to the
UN.
OPERATING IN OTHER COUNTRIES
The following I know for certain. I did some research on Interpol for "Law
and Order." I provide the info here for general consumption. ;)
Interpol's jurisdiction is global... in a sense. The jurisdiction of their
agents (who are law enforcement officers from their own respective countries;
see below) is limited to that which the country they are operating in
*affords* them. Period.
For example; An Interpol team consisting of an American, Spanish and Italian
agent goes to France to apprehend an international fugitive. The team must
first contact the French liaison agency and get permission to operate in
France. While in France, the Interpol team must adhere to the same laws and
"limitations" or "regulations" placed on French police. So if French police
cannot shoot unless first shot *at*, then niether can the Intrpol team. If the
French police can kick in a door and search without a warrant, then so can the
Interpol team. Follow me?
AGENTS FROM VARIOUS COUNTRIES
There is one national law enforcement agency designated by each member
country which acts as the official Interpol "liaison" in that country, and
most (if not all) of the Interpol agents from that country are from that one
agency.
For example: In the United States, the federal Dept. of Justice (DOJ) is our
Interpol liaison agency, and most of the American Interpol agents are also DOJ
agents (or from the FBI, ATF, etc, which are all under the DOJ). I believe the
liaison agency for Britain is Scotland Yard; for France is the French National
Police; for Japan, the Japanese Natl. Police; for Canada, the Royal Canadian
Mounted Police; etc.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 14:45:29 EST
Subject: "I'm not dead yet!"
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< with the captaion, "We're not dead yet!" >>
"You hear that. He says he's not dead yet. I can't take him."
"He'll be stone dead in a moment."
<LOL>
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 14:47:31 EST
Subject: Re: Official Rulings (was Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< You have got to be kidding. How could WoTC patent the idea of the CCG? >>
They aren't. They're patenting the way *their* CCGs are played (turning
cards to represent "tapping," etc.). It's supposed to promote "original" CCG
designs, according to Adkinson.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 14:50:47 EST
Subject: Link Exchanges
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
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<< What about web sites run by comic/game stores? Perhaps you could work
out an ad exchange with them.>>
Could you imagine our web site with 200+ link and banner exchanges on it?
<LOL> It would be a huge site of 1001 links.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 15:01:32 EST
Subject: Re: Building A Super Hero World
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< From there on I'm stuck, I need a reason why they were banned globally, yet
I still want a golden age feel to the era. >>
Involvement in war crimes? I would think that'd be a biggie!
"Threat to humanity" stuff always works for me. ;)
Perhaps they were associated with the "Commie Reds" during the post-WW2,
1950s Red Scare?
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 15:01:33 EST
Subject: Re: Official Rulings (was Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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This thread has gotten off topic so I won't be reading them or responding to
them any more. Just FYI. :)
Mark @ GRG
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:15:58 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Official Rulings (was Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
> On Sat, 20 Dec 1997, Brian Wong wrote:
>
> > 2. WoTC patented CCG's
>
> You have got to be kidding. How could WoTC patent the idea of the CCG? I
> could see patenting and Trademarking Magic... but every form of CCG?
One patents useful inventions, not individual products. The claim of
WotC must be that the idea of a Collectable Card Game represents an
invention that should be protected for the period of the patent. They
would have to list a number of features that define the patentable idea,
to show that it meets a need in the marketplace, and must place the
application on file for a comment period so that others with similar
claims can object to the patent.
For example, a sterile package that can be used to hold an adhesive
bandage yet open up by pulling on two tabs was an invention and was
patented. It does not matter what the bandage looks like, the printing
on the package, or even whether the product was used to hold something
other than a bandage, it still comes under the patent. Depending on the
breadth of the claim and the originality of the idea, it might be far
cheaper to license the patent from the owner than to attempt to defend
one's own product against an infringement claim.
>
> And they plan to sue everyone else who puts out a CCG? That's insane? It
I would assume that they would first offer to license the idea for a
share of the profits. That is, after all, the purpose of patents. If an
agreement cannot be reached, it is not insane to sue alleged infringers,
it is required. Failure to defend a trademark, copyright or patent in
court can be taken as evidence of abandonment.
One may feel that the PTO should not have patented the CCG, but that is a
different story. Remember that this is the same PTO that briefly allowed
a patent on Hypertext. Frankly, I cannot think of a valid objection to
the patent -- it was a novel idea that was not obvious that met a market
need. The only question now is whether the claim is overly broad, but I
doubt that a court would agree that it is.
> also sounds like a fast way for WoTC to burn off all their profits in
> court battles (or more likely, drive everyone else out of business).
>
But, of course, driving competitors out of business is probably the idea.
Unless the competitors form a group to challenge the patent, and split
the legal fees, they will probably end up paying a license fee to WotC.
If they wanted to challenge the patent, they could and should have done
so during the comment period.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Official Rulings (was Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 21:24:53 +0000 (GMT)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> >I was at Origins in 1977 and heard Tim Kask announce the "One True Way of
> >D&D". I was particularly appalled at a statement to the effect that they
> >intended to sue the APAs and all competing role playing games out of
> >existence -- after all, all conceivable role playing games were rip-offs
> >of D&D, and anyone with a halfway decent idea could come to TSR to have
> >it evaluated by the real experts, anyway.
>
> An attitude now being echoed by WotC -in re- the Garfield Patent & CCGs
> (*sigh*). I wonder if any of these people realize that the purpose of
> "intellectual property" laws from the beginning in the U.S. was to *promote*
> the exchange of ideas, not choke it to a standstill. :/
Actually, in true 'dufus' fashion, according to an editorial in
Duelist, Richard Garfield feels that by making everyone with a CCG pay him
a licencing fee he is promoting the development of more games.
Which makes about as much sense as the flat earth society...
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 21 Dec 97 13:46:02 -0800
Subject: Incomplete Characters [L
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
O > D> Subject: Incomplete Characters [Long]
O > D> Many people mentioned these rules in the discussion of a
O > hypothetical =
O > D> 5th Ed. Since I had never seen them, I checked out Opal's page. In
O > it =
O >
O > I'm going to read your message in detail, and forward it to
O > James, before I reply, first glance, though, you have some
O > good points.
O >
O > We *really* apreciate this kind of feedback,
O > Thanks!
O > --
O > Opal
Having said that, I promptly lost your original post...
can you email it to Opal@October.com & jimalj@best.com ?
Thanx
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Building A Super Hero World
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 21:48:27 +0000 (GMT)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> > As for a reason to ban super-soldiers, I'm about as lost as you are.
> >Perhaps a couple of incidents where they went berserk or at least rogue
> >(which could become the basis for one or more villains), and/or a human
> >rights outcry against experimenting on humans to create the super-soldiers
> >(in which case android super-soldiers might still be legal, if impractical).
>
> Well, drawing on some IST background, how about "the smaller countries in
> the UN saw how the military super teams gave the larger nations an even
> bigger advantage, and began petitioning the UN for a ban. The UN put
> together an international team made of the 'official' supers from these
> smaller countries to help enforce the ban on military supers around the
> world."
>
Actually, I was thinking on almost the reverse logic.
The larger nations with big militaries and Atomic power saw that any
small crackpot nation with a team of super soilders could be a serious threat.
So to prevent this they outlawed Super Soilders. What I need though is the
shiny 'polite' reason handed to the public.
> And don't forget that not all countries are members of the UN, so you will
> still have some military supers from 'outlaw nations' running around.
Yeah, I'm thinking groups like the Vatican funding teams. As well as
Super Soilders thinly diguised as 'Police Forces'.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 21 Dec 97 13:51:04 -0800
Subject: Re: Incomplete Character
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
l > From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
l > Subject: Re: Incomplete Characters [Long]
l > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
l > Hash: SHA1
l >
l > This sounds very cool. Please tell me the web page? (I'm always up
l > for more rules! Must....have...more...rules....:) )
l > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
l > Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
l > Charset: noconv
l >
l > iQA/AwUBNJopCTKf8mIpTvjWEQL6UgCgwxykWULw+jVCVLCj16abRvdwHQgAnjUM
l > 2wsi8h4aSDnsCJ1bZ9RsmXp3
l > =PDKQ
l > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Only to happy to oblige:
http://www.best.com/~jimalj/incomp.html
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 21:57:23 +0000 (GMT)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>
> << Try to have a constant flow of products coming out, and promote each one,
> before it comes out, as it comes out, and after it comes out.>>
>
> At what point does this become a negative factor, though? I mean, some of
> the gripes about Fuzion is that is was over hyped. I'm not saying I agree with
> that assertion, but it has been stated here...
>
I don't think it's the amount of hype so much as the tone of that hype.
A lot of people felt, weather right or wrong; that Fuzion was being shoved
down their throats and it was their problem if they didn't accept it. A lot
of it's hype came across as very hostile to Hero fans. It may or may not have
been intended that way. But it was recieved that way.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 08:02:49 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: National Super Teams
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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At 06:38 AM 12/21/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>WHAT?!?!?! who the heck thought of phase two??!?! and
>>as fer champs down under? data please *g*
>
> Phase II was first mentioned in Champions Universe, and also were
>mentioned in the VIPER sourcebook. As for who thought of them, I don't know.
> In his description of Captain Australia in Hero System Almanac I, Scott
>Heine mentioned in passing that *someone* should write a Champions Down Under.
> BTW according to the CU sources, Phase II is only the government's
>official superhero team; there's also an independent team in the Outback
>who call themselves the Outriders.
>
>
oooooooohhh. . . . .my duty has become clear. . . I should- nay,
I MUST do an australian sourcebook! *g* or at least attempt it. . .
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Interpol
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 22:13:03 +0000 (GMT)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>
> << The UN has a branch of Interpol dedicated to dealing with international
> Super Crime. While they are global their jurisdiction is limited to
> International incidents. The bulk of their forces are non Super in nature. >>
>
> INTERPOL
>
> This is just FYI (and I'm not trying to criticize or invalidate your world
> <G>): Interpol, if memory serves, is an independent agency, not linked to the
> UN.
>
> OPERATING IN OTHER COUNTRIES
>
> Interpol's jurisdiction is global... in a sense. The jurisdiction of their
> agents (who are law enforcement officers from their own respective countries;
> see below) is limited to that which the country they are operating in
> *affords* them. Period.
[Other information snipped]
Actually, that's about how I was doing it, just worded shorter for
brevity (sp?).
The idea is that my world has no UNTIL that can go wherever it pleases
bashing down doors.
It has 'WatchTower' (neither the Jimmi Hendrix song or the Jehovah's
Witness version :) ), an alliance of supers throughout the globe who have
basically tricked the UN over time into using them as the 'heavy artilery'
when Super Threats occur.
Basically I'm going for a combination of DC's Justice League and
Wildstorm's Stormwatch. Then trying to keep it working in a four color world.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 21 Dec 97 14:25:06 -0800
Subject: Re:Fuzion/Hero Conversio
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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G > From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
G > Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
G > << Fuzion. The people at Hero made alot of promises they didn't keep
G > system. That is it easily compatible and convertable with 4th Edition.
G > It is not. >>
G >
G > I disagree. I have run games in which half the players had 4th Ed.
G > characters and the other half had Fuzion characters. I guess I am more
G > familiar with Fuzion than most of the "I can't stand Fuzion" crowd for
G > reasons, but I still don't see what's so difficult about the
G > conversion process. :/ Anyway, on to your points.
G >
I'll just take my namesake and favourite character as an example:
Opal has 10/10 pd/ed, a 10/10 Force Field, and 10/10 armor...
(I'm not making this up just to make Fuzion look bad, Opal has
always been like this, she started out under 3rd Ed with 10pd/ed,
11/11 FF, and 9/9 armor...)
Now you're supposed to be able to walk into a Fuzion game and just
start playing like you mentioned... Say I fight a villain who would
have had a 4d KA in Champs... he'll have 10d in Fuzion. Opal doesn't
much depend on DCV, and has a 20 DEX, so it's a good bet the villain
hits her first. On average he does 35 hits/stun. Opal is a Champs
character with 35 Stun, so she has 35 hits/stun... her armor and ff
don't stack in Fuzion, so she takes 25 hits, KD & SD don't stack either
so she takes 25 stun, too. That's more than half her Stun, so she's
stunned. Her FF goes down, but that doesn't matter, the armor means
she still has 10 KD, as the villain hits her again, another 35 Hits..
Opal is at -15 Hits, (and, since she has 13 BOD, is 11 hits away from
death, anyone with a 6+ d KA can finish her off).
Running the same fight in Hero, the results depend on what the villain
gets on that darn Stun Multiple, if he gets 3 or less, Opal will shrug
it off, taking 0-12 Stun and 0 BOD, if he gets a 4 or 5, she'll be stunned,
or unconscious.... but the villain will have to either spend a turn
peeling her out of her armor or hit her 5 or 6 more times, to finish
her off...
The conversion problem isn't that you can't convert Hero->Fuzion,
it's that once you do you find out that Fuzion is a bloodfest...
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Subject: Re: Building A Super Hero World
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-4,9-10,14-29,33-34,40-42
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 17:32:42 EST
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> When the war ended Germany and Japan were both found to have
>done much
>'experimentation' into producing Super Soilders.
>[***End first Insert***]
Depending on just what sort of "experimentation" was going on, you've got
the potential for a nice big emotional backlash against creating super
soldiers. Perhaps some commando group raided a base that produced super
soldiers and got hold of records showing just how many people died during
"production". (Something on the lines of the death camp films.)
This might not be enough for a world-wide ban unless you also establish
that the Allies had their share of dead super wanna-bes, though.
Otherwise, you're just going to get a "look how much better we are"
reaction.
>Part of the UN's founding charter, in an effort to prevent the
>mistakes of the Second
>World War; outlined very restrictive rules on the use of Super Humans
>by national
>governements. The trick was in writing a document which prevented
>Super Armies,
>without also preventing the Atomic Powers (the US in those days) from
>maintaining
>their edge. As the US was on the winning side of the war; this issue
>was of vital
>importance to it. After all, many nations had Supers, but only one had
>the A-Bomb.
What about ruling creation of super soldiers to be equivalent to slavery?
After all, if the transformation works, the person is required to join a
super soldier unit. He can't say, "sorry, but I've got a better job
lined up".
You might also get conservative Christian groups supporting a ban on
creating supers under the argument that man (no unisex phrasing back
then!) is created in the image of God and therefore changing men into
something else is blasphemy. Other religious groups might get involved
under similar arguments, but I don't have the references here to work out
what those arguments would be.
Leah
Subject: Re: Mage-style magic in Hero...
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-15,21-22,29-33
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 17:32:42 EST
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>How would you do Mage-style (from White Wolf's Mage:The Ascension,
>one of the Noun:The Noun series of games) magic in Hero? I ask
>because I've always been of the opinion ANYTHING can be done in Hero,
>but this one is stumping me.
<description of Mage-style magic snipped>
>Could anyone familiar with Mage give me some ideas on how to model
>this in Hero? Since spells are created dynamically, a VPP is
>obviously the basis, but the limitations/advantages on it are giving
>me a headache. Possibly a VPP where the powers you create require
>multiple skill rolls, said skill rolls based on what Spheres are
>involved and how complex the task is for each sphere. Oy.
I'm definitely not a Mage expert, but let's see...
Requiring Variable Limitations on spells would be one way to simulate
what a mage does to avoid Paradox -- a mage can choose to cast "vulgar"
magic (like shooting lighting from his fingers) and take a Side Effect
limitation or try something safer (the target is electrocuted when the
ATM next to him "just happens" to short-circuit) with limitations like
Concentrate or Extra Time.
I'd treat the different sphere rankings as KS: Name of Sphere, and
require a skill roll for spells. If a spell uses two or more spheres (a
very common occurance in Mage), the Complementary Skills rule would work.
Choose one sphere to be primary (probably the one that needs the highest
roll), and all the other spheres are complementary. Rolling two or three
times to generate the skill roll needed for a spell will be time
consuming, but it's the best method I can think of right now.
Hope this helps.
Leah
From: HayVern <HayVern@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 17:42:03 EST
Subject: Re: M-203
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
>Well, if your target is standing right in front of you, you might
>concievably want to fire both at the same time. This assumes
>you're willing to take some of the blast damage from the grenade
>yourself. (Many champs characters are that tough). Does the
>grenade have to travel some minimum distance before it is armed?
> Eric
Yes the round has to make a number of revolutions before it is armed. The
amount of revolutions required are minimal. It figures to be aroun 10 meters
are so. Any closer than that and you would be within the blast zone. You could
fire the weapon effectively up to around 50-60 meters. In close combat that
may be what you would want to do. But if I had a character that was trying to
do that. I would tend to enforce a penalty of perhaps using off-hand to one or
the other weapon.
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 17:49:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Vehicle Help Part II
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I'm working on some vehicles for my kazei Five sourcebook and need to know
the following:
Does onyone have any idea of the performance characteristics for the V-22
Osprey tiltwing? Size, mass, speed, that sort of thing.
Does anyone know what, (or if) there is a Japanese name for 'hummingbird'?
Thanks.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 21 Dec 97 14:50:08 -0800
Subject: Inhibit Characteristic (
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
D > Subject: Inhibit Characteristic (AKA: SLipperiness)
D >
D > Inhibit Characteristic
D >
D > The cost is 20 points for one target, +5 points for 2x targets. Making
D > char roll takes no time, to make the char roll cost a mandatory
D > 1/2-phaze action costs +10 points. Some possible Special Effects are:
D > STR: High Pressure Field
D > DEX: Oil Or Ice Slick
D > CON: Toxin or Disease
D > INT: Mental Scambling
D > EGO: Mental Paralysis
D > PRE: Fear Attack
D > COM: Bad Lighting (OK, so I watched Seinfeld last night...)
D > PD: Pain Intensification
D > ED: Ditto
D > REC: Toxin or Disease
D > END: *Use Drain Instead*
D > STN: *Use an appropriate damage-causing attack power instead*
D >
D > I dunno, this was just off of the top of my head...whatta ya'll think?
I can't say that I'm delighted by the idea of new powers... but, this
really isn't too bad. The only recomendations I'd make would be:
- Don't have a special cost structure for affecting multiple opponents,
just allow autofire, or Area Effect..
- Always base the roll to resist on a Primary characteristic, secondary
can be too high or low (even most supers don't have REC much beyond
10, and, though and END-inhibitor might makes sense, the roll to resist
would be laughable - 40 END is pretty typical for a super, that's 17-
right there) Instead, if you allow a figured charactersitic to be
Inhibited, have an apropriate Primary stat used - for instance CON
for REC or END.
- How does Inhibiting CON work with respect to Stunning - is the victim
Stunned whenever he takes at least one STN?
- I think SPD, STN, and PD/ED, shouldn't be subject to the power, the
the effect of not being able to use of SPD or STN is too extreme,
and PD/ED are defenses - subject to the half-effect rule for adjustment
powers - if you do let them be inhibited, the Inhibit should be double
cost and they should be resisted by STR/CON.
- The effect of inhibiting INT or EGO shouldn't be too sever... the GM
shouldn't just rule the character a vegitable, instead, the INT-drained
character just won't be able to make PER or INT-based skill rolls, and
what about EGO? How vulnerable does that make you to Mental Powers?
One last thought: Maybe using isn't quite the same as 'having' for instance,
Inhibited STUN would have no meaning since you never 'use' STN - OK, it
would keep you from 'buring' STN as END. Likewise, Inhibited CON might
still count against Stunning, and Inhibbited EGO would still be counted
for determining the effect of EGO powers, the victim just won't be able
to make any attempts to break out until he can use his EGO again...
Hope you find some of this helpful...
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Mage-style magic in Hero...
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 21 Dec 1997 19:51:53 -0500
Lines: 32
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "LLW" == Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com> writes:
LLW> (the target is electrocuted when the ATM next to him "just happens" to
LLW> short-circuit) with limitations like Concentrate or Extra Time.
I really do not like this idea. Coincidental magic can be just as "fast"
and "easy" as vulgar magic. In general, the only mechanical difference
between coincidental and vulgar effects is that a mage may be slapped by
paradox if he creates a vulgar effect in view of a sleeper. Thus, in my
own quick writeup, vulgar effects get a half-value Side Effects limitation,
because it might or might not create a paradox in view of a sleeper -- and
the mage will not know until he actually creates the effect. Coincidental
magic has no such restriction -- though it may have others, depending on
the effect in question.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
\ Earth, presumably from outer space.
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Building A Super Hero World
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 01:27:12 +0000 (GMT)
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> There was a cool comic a few years back called the Protectors. In it Super
> Teams had been outlawed because there was a battle between the Gov sponsored
> team The Protectors, and a Super Villain called Jackdaw, or some such.
> Anyway, they blew up a whole town! So out of fear they outlawed Teams of
> heroes.
>
> You could have a famous event where a team of S-Soldiers got a little too
> Ramboish and waxed a town...
Not to sure that one would work though.
After all countless cities full of people were massacered during WWII, yet
militaries were not outlawed. And in Vietnam US soilders cleaned out a
village, the issue was very publicized, but no major consequences came of it.
I think what I need is an anti escalation policy. I can see how
Super Soilders might be viewed as undesirable for the simple reason that
it takes something like the US-USSR arms race and puts it in the hands of
every nation on earth all competing at once in a manner much more severe
than that of a conventional arms buildup.
Course, I could just go with the way I defined powers, and simply
state that's it's just the way things are that the world in general doesn't
militarize it's supers. In other words just chuck it into the 'genre' box.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 21 Dec 97 17:32:00 -0800
Subject: Re: Inhibit Characterist
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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b > Another thing: is this an Instant Power with a constant effect
b > Entangle or Transform), or a Constant Power? I got the impression
b > this is Constant, which makes it useless for things like oil slicks or
b > Zambonis, whose effects stay around for a while.
It probably should be constant... but you can always add Uncontrolled
to an AE version to get an oil slick that sticks around for
a defined period.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 21 Dec 97 17:54:02 -0800
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: So
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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b > At 08:03 PM 12/17/97 -0800, Opal wrote:
b > > b > - Extra Limbs should go back to having a cost per limb. My
b > > b > structure is 5 points for two arms, with reduced costs for
b > > b > (3 points for one arm, 3 for a pair of tentacles, 1 for a single
b > > b > or prehensile tail).
b > >Do you get OCV bonuses like the old version?
b > Absolutely not. Those should be bought as CSLs.
awww... :)
b >
b > >I still think there should be the cheapie 5pt for any number
b > version...
b > >just so the Millitant Millipede doesn't cost 1000 points (at 1 per
b > >limb) :)
b >
b > As I've said, I just have a problem with the idea of 100 arms
b > the same as having a prehensile tail.
b > I've proposed a different cost structure (which I personally like
b > little better, BTW) which gives a character 2X limbs for +5 points,
b > provides appropriate Limitations for the limbs being tentacles and
b > haven't gotten any feedback on whether that works for most folks
b > If that's too expensive, maybe 2 points per 2X limbs would work.
b >
I can see charging per 'useful' limb... but, I guess at some
point they just become special effects...
Extra Limb would have to define the advantages of multiple limbs...
any ideas?
b > >DEF is balanced, because Flash is so powerful... get Flashed
b > >for even 1 phase in a pitched battle and you can be in BIG
b > >trouble.. the DEF really has to be able to completely negate
b > >the attack to be useful.
b >
b > You know, I'd never really considered the relative utility of Flash
b > Defense before you pointed it out... but OTOH it's extremely easy to
b > virtually impervious to Flashes. And Flashes to other Sense Groups
Right, because there's really only two levels of protection against
Flash: virtually useless (you're blind and helpless for at least
a phase) and virtually impervious (you're not).
b > are not
b > quite as useful (though I do have villains who can Flash Hearing,
b > Mental, Radio, and even Smell Sense Groups).
True... then again, if you compare the cost of protecting all your
senses from a flash, it does come out to costing about half as
much as the attack. :)
b >
b > >Heck, all movement powers should be limited 'Movement' :)
b > >(Except Teleport, it would be Indirect Movement)
b >
b > I don't know that I'd go for that. (Maybe in the 6th Edition.)
b >
No really, it's a great idea. And movement, knockback, falling, and
move by/through, should all have a consistent system for causing damge,
that takes into account all of the nitpicky physics questions....
and whoever does TUSV should be *writing* rules like that!
<just kidding>
Actually, that's one of the great imponderable problems in Hero -
the whole thing about movement being inconsistent (because it's per
phase) and coming up with a system for falling damage that doesn't
have normals dying when they trip or dusting themselves off after
they jump out of an airplane without a parachute, and yet uses the
Hero 1d6 = double power convention, and making knockback consistent
with that.... <think I'll take another futile stab at it myself>
b > >I think Explosion and AE: Hex are balanced - Explosion is really
b > >only useful against serious oponents in center hex, and it does
b > >a lot of collateral damage.
b >
b > It's also really really useful against a batch of agents.
I don't know, an 8d EX will do about 22 STN to anyone in the 1st
ring of hexes out from the center... that'll take down abject
normals, but the Agents in the Viper book might not even be
stunned by it... OTOH, it's injuring normals and breaking windows
16m away...
b > > b > - Damage Shield should be clarified so that *any* significant
b > > b > contact, including the character with DS making an attack a
b > target, will cause damage.
b > >
b > >That would make it considerably more powerful... have to raise
b > >the Adv level too.
b >
b > See, that's the point, and that's why I said "clarified." Many of
b > don't think that would make it more powerful at all because that's how
b > already works, it just doesn't say so clearly enough.
b >
I think it's pretty clearly stated that only a Grab manuever will do it
offensively.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58 * --------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 21:02:10 -0500 (EST)
From: dq831@freenet.carleton.ca (Jamie Rosen)
Subject: GRG: Possible Sourcebooks?
Reply-To: dq831@freenet.carleton.ca
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Well, with the interest you expressed in a Canadian sourcebook, and some
of the discussion of an Aussie one, do you think GRG would be able to do a
series of non-US Champions sourcebooks (Canada, Australia, England, etc.)
--
Jamie Rosen - author, bad seed, and layabout on rec.arts.comics.creative
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mistake is just experience in the present tense.
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 21 Dec 97 18:03:04 -0800
Subject: Re: Incomplete Character
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
b > On 18 Dec 1997, Opal wrote:
b >
b > > Actually, James Jandebuer <jimalj@best.com> also known as the
b > > Gaming Philosopher, is the primary authoer of the incompolet
b > > rules. I did help (mainly Rigid Armor - there I admitted it -
b > > and Internal Spaces - which I'm a bit more proud of) :)
b > >
b >
b > Rigid Armor is one of my problems with the Incomplete Rules as they
b > currently stand - it makes it difficult to do robots who take STUN
b > normally. The Internal Spaces power, though, is brilliant!
b > ---
I don't understand: a Robot who took STN normally, would have a
Stun characteristic, and buy normal armor (or FF or whatever).
Rigid Armor was done so that we could exclude characters that
lacked STUN from buying normal Armor & Force Field, which are
far to effective when the protected character only worries
about BOD damage.
In theory, Rigid Armor & Force Wall are equally useful to both
characters who lack STN and normal characters (since the attack
is stopped if BOD doesn't get through), and thus the cost was
OK for the lack STN types... (that probably didn't make much
sense, but it's true, really).
About a year ago, I was discussing Rigid Armor, listening to
some of the objections, and I thought of a vague idea to make
it a bit more acceptable, but then I got pulled away from the
list for a few days and lost it. Any recomendations for making
RA better (less offensive)? (be brutal, remember I'm not happy
with it either!)
--
Opal
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 21 Dec 97 18:08:06 -0800
Subject: Re: Dead Duplicates
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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c > >Dead is Dead. Would you let a dead character heal back? :)
c > >In my book, losing the points you paid for a duplicate beats
c > >being dead...
c >
c > nah, you didnt lose your character, you got part of your power hurt,
c > just
c > doesnt make sense game wise to do that to people... its points, not
c > your
c > character. Should cost less if you can lose it permanently.
c > ----------------------------------------------------------
Well, it seems to me, that if you didn't have duplication you'd
be dead, so yes, you lost some points, but you're *alive*. As
a matter of fact, I think Duplication is the way to go for those
characters that should return from the dead (on rare occasions).
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Links on Champs pages (was Re: Looking for Hero players & GMs)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 02:09:12 +0000 (GMT)
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> << If you are looking for a group, START ONE! >>
>
> To that end, I have been considering starting page on our web sitte for Hero
> gamers to find other Hero gamers. A "frind Hero GMs/players classified"
> listing of sorts. What do you folks think of that idea? Webmasters, would you
> create a link to such a page? Heck, we could also post listings of Hero games
> scheduled for various cons!
Well, I'll put a link to anything Super Hero on my links page. Even
got a form in there for doing it.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 21 Dec 97 18:12:08 -0800
Subject: RE: Set in Stone....
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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G > From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
G > << ergo, the list often asks for an "official
G > opinion" on a rules question which comes back "do what you want" >>
G >
G > What's wrong with that? Why does everything have to be set in stone.
G > Part of the beauty of the Hero System *is* it's flexibility and adaptab
G > wouldn't you agree? There is often no "one right way" to do something.
G > Mark @ GRG
G > ---
The beauty of Hero is it's flexibility... a flexibility that's built
into the rules. Other games claim flexibility because they include
the 'all rules are optional - do what works best' weasel clause.
White Wolf calls it the Golden Rule - more like the golden cop-out...
There may not be *one* 'right' way to do something, but it's hoped
that there is at least one legal way to do each thing. I don't
mind if there are more. :) <just realized I'm probably making no
sense>
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 21 Dec 97 18:20:10 -0800
Subject: New Limitation: Puncture
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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To: champ-l@omg.org
f > Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
f >
f > Puncture (-1/4)
That one's cute... I've always just use special F/X for that
sort of thing, but I'll probably start using it for my game...
One thing to consider... you can't knock a hole you can walk
through in a wass using a .44 magnum - but you *can* hurt
people on the other side - maybe a -0 or +1/4 advantage
version of the above?
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Building A Super Hero World
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 02:31:37 +0000 (GMT)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> << From there on I'm stuck, I need a reason why they were banned globally, yet
> I still want a golden age feel to the era. >>
>
> Involvement in war crimes? I would think that'd be a biggie!
A possibility. Of course many of Japan's post war leaders were
war criminals who the US chose not to try in order to use Japan as a
beach-head of control in asia. Not to mention all the german scientists we
started using. So I can see lots of German and Japanese Super's suddenly
working for the Allies at the end of the war.
> "Threat to humanity" stuff always works for me. ;)
I think this one if invoked would have to explain why nukes weren't
included.
> Perhaps they were associated with the "Commie Reds" during the post-WW2,
> 1950s Red Scare?
This is a good one for a world that wants an anti super USA. But
not for a pro super 'global environment' that bans them from military service.
Since the Red Scare is limited to the USA, and mostly to liberal elements
that posed a percieved threat to the power structure within the USA
of the time.
I think the most viable option seems to be one where it is done
to prevent the weaker nations from having an equalizer.
This also helps explain the global acceptance of a
'WatchTower' organization if that organization then puts itself on good
terms with the small countries that had their supersoilders denied them, and
lacked the funds to build up atomic or conventional forces.
However I'm not sure I like such an explaination. A lot of my
world is about paradigm shifts. Wherin each super has literally stepped
outside reality. The simple fact that they don't live under the same laws
of physics and biology that normals do could also have something to do with it
simply not being part of reality for them to be militarized.
Note that I assume that most Super's are not a product of technology,
but of 'natural causes', 'accidents', and simply 'fate/need'.
A Super in my world is very much a product of destiny. There is no
'Super Gene'. 'Super Tech' is more 'science outside the bounds of science'
than it is 'advanced technology', and therefore not useful outside it's
limited applications. So an advanced nation could spend all it's resources
trying to build super-gadgets and simply never get anywhere. But some kid
in his garage could put a few tin cans together, stick a battery in it,
and twist a few wiires; and if by his very nature it was meant to be, he'd
create the paradigm shift needed to give him a 'Cosmo Ray Gun'.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 21 Dec 97 18:36:12 -0800
Subject: Re: New Limitation: Punc
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
RE: Puncture (-1/4)
b >
b > I could see working up a whole set of disads to simulate a wide
b > variety of
b > attacks, and this might be appropriate in a very few campaigns. But I
b > suspect it would be opening a can of worms to start using this sort of
b > things in most games.
b >
b > What have your experiences with it been?
I like the Lim Filksinger posted, but I see your point... that
level of detail might not do, say for a published rule... but you
can always wedge it in under 'Limmitted Power'
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 21 Dec 97 18:42:14 -0800
Subject: Re: New Limitation: Punc
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> F> Thus, a .44 Magnum cannot be used to blow a 6 ft hole in the wall
> F> your house,
>
> This is inherent. 6 feet ~= 2 meters = 1", or a 1 hex attack. If you
> want
> to blow a 6-foot hole in a wall, you need an AoE attack. If you want
> to
> *cut* a large hole, that depends on the SFX of the power in question.
Actually, in Hero, the BOD of walls and such is *per hex* so you
can't get any damage through a wall until you've destroyed a six-
foot section of it! (Murphy's Rules time, here). Obviously,
F/X come into play...
> F> and a rapier cannot be used to knock down an oak door,
>
> Not when the oak door's DEF is more than the damage that the rapier
> can do.
A rapier does 1d Killing, enough STR and/or Martial Arts can take
that up to 2d. I don't think oak doors go up to 12 DEF, though
they probably have close to 6 and that'll stop the vast majority
or rapier hits from knocking them down...
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Legionair <Legionair@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 21:47:56 EST
Subject: Transform?
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Here's an idea for a character that I'm working on...
Using the old "phobia" type character, I'm designing a mentalist that can
"give" his targets various Psychological Disadvantages.
I figure that the most logical way to design this power is with a Minor
Transformation. (It's definately not a Cosmetic Transform, and doesn't seem
to be as vital as Major Transform.) Making it an all or nothing
retransformation is tempting, but the slow fade of the transform might be a
bit more suitable. Obviously the attack should be based on ECV as well, for
the mentalist angle.
I don't want to design the character as being able to "read" what a target's
fears might be (that feels a little cliched), but being able to pick a fear
and just plant it on the character might be a bit too powerful as well.
Has anyone else designed a similar character concept?
Jason
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 21 Dec 97 18:52:16 -0800
Subject: Re: Revised Hand Attack
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
> >>4d HAp, 0 END, OAF, Beam: always +1 OCV & +3d -1/4,
> >>Apts 30, Rpts 13
> >>
> >So, you would give an *additional* point break to the OCV level? As
> >stands now, if I want a +1 OCV w/ a weapon it would cost 5 points,
> >with a -1 OAF lim. You're giving it a -1 1/4 for no reason (IMO)...
> >
>
>
> I must admit I don't like the ocv bonus concept. .. . too
> cheap. . .
> ---
CHEAP?? An OCV level is 2 pts. If you want to focus a level
it must be 5pts.... Getting the + 1 OCV by using a die of
HA costs 5 pts, and costs END... how is that cheaper?
Do you have any objections to spreading an EB?
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 21 Dec 97 18:59:18 -0800
Subject: Re: GRG: The Fuss over F
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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To: champ-l@omg.org
r > > One, unless they are linked.
r >
r > Are you absolutely sure? Steve has apparently contradicted himself on
r >
r > this point as well. For example, if this is true, how does one
r > describe
r > two powers that can be used together *or* separately? One seems to
r > require an unlisted Advantage for this.
r >
It can be done with a moderately complex multipower:
Multipower
u Power A
u Power B
u Power A' (again exactly like the first one)
u Power B' Linked to A' (ditto)
Funny thing is, the cost is not that different from just
buying the two powers sepparately, outside of any power
framework.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 21 Dec 97 19:11:20 -0800
Subject: Mage-style magic in Hero
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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To: champ-l@omg.org
l > From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
l >
l > How would you do Mage-style (from White Wolf's Mage:The Ascension,
l > one of the Noun:The Noun series of games) magic in Hero? I ask
l > because I've always been of the opinion ANYTHING can be done in Hero,
l > but this one is stumping me.
l >
That's because Mage magic is - like Hero powers - an effects-based
system. There are no special effect to simulate.
l > Forces, Entropy, etc. Spells are created 'on the fly' and the GM
l > decides which spheres are involved and how much skill is needed in
.....
l > Further, there's the issue of Paradox. Basically, people don't
.....
l > happens. So sometimes there are side effects, sometimes, there are
l > not.
l >
l > Could anyone familiar with Mage give me some ideas on how to model
l > this in Hero? Since spells are created dynamically, a VPP is
l > obviously the basis, but the limitations/advantages on it are giving
l > me a headache. Possibly a VPP where the powers you create require
l > multiple skill rolls, said skill rolls based on what Spheres are
l > involved and how complex the task is for each sphere. Oy.
How bout this - there's a net Mage->Fuzion conversion (you can find
the link to it on the Hero Games page). Use that, then use the
divide by 5 rule in reverse. :)
OK, yes, use a Variable Power Pool. Have the skill to change/cast
effects 'Arete', I gues. Then use sepparate skills to represent
knowledge of the spheres. The Control cost is limited to only
affects that can be done at the sphere levels represented by the
sphere skills (you'd have to decide what that would be). Base
the Size of the VPP on Arete (10 or 15 pts per dot?). Skills
might break down:
* Aprentice 8-
** Disciple 11-
*** Disciple 13-
**** Adept 15-
***** Master 18-
But, with the wierd way the sphere levels relate to effects, there's
no way you'll escape from the mage book entirely.
The other option, is to chuck the Mage magick system entirely,
and let the players read discriptions of the Traditions and
build characters to suit thier conceptions.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58 * "I'm a Doctor, dammit, not a poet." - S. Strange, MD
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 19:17:00 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Propulsion Features
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At 11:58 AM 12/21/97 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>To move this back to Champions, the 'aliens' in Kishin Corps had this really
>keen plot device - if you shot them, they exploded. But if you cut them with
>a sword, they just 'died'. Wonderful game world contrivance to force people
>to tote around those swords, neh? :-). Anyway, I'm hoping TUSV will feature
>a lot of 'defined' vehicle disadvantages, stuff like Maximum Ceiling,
>Maximum Climbing Angle, Requires a Runway...
>
>Say, will the dangerous effects of various propulsion features be explained
>as Champs powers? Helicopter blades would be a Burnout HKA linked to Flight,
>or an RKA to simulate jetwash, etc. etc...
I'm glad you mentioned this... AND I WISH YOU'D MENTIONED IT A COUPLE OF
WEEKS AGO WHEN I REALLY NEEDED IT. :-]
Anyway, I think it's a little late to get it into the first draft, but
there's plenty of time to add it before the final one goes out.
BTW, Requires a Runway is a combination of Stall Velocity on Flight, and
Half Value on Bad Roads on Ground Movement (Running).
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 19:23:12 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Link Exchanges
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At 02:50 PM 12/21/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< What about web sites run by comic/game stores? Perhaps you could work
>out an ad exchange with them.>>
>
> Could you imagine our web site with 200+ link and banner exchanges on it?
><LOL> It would be a huge site of 1001 links.
Maybe you could make it a separate page... or branch them out by state
and such...
Seriously, I don't think you'll have *that* many takers, though you
never know.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 19:25:38 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: National Super Teams
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At 08:02 AM 12/22/97 +1000, happyelf wrote:
>At 06:38 AM 12/21/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>>WHAT?!?!?! who the heck thought of phase two??!?! and
>>>as fer champs down under? data please *g*
>>
>> Phase II was first mentioned in Champions Universe, and also were
>>mentioned in the VIPER sourcebook. As for who thought of them, I don't
know.
>> In his description of Captain Australia in Hero System Almanac I, Scott
>>Heine mentioned in passing that *someone* should write a Champions Down
Under.
>> BTW according to the CU sources, Phase II is only the government's
>>official superhero team; there's also an independent team in the Outback
>>who call themselves the Outriders.
>
>oooooooohhh. . . . .my duty has become clear. . . I should- nay,
>I MUST do an australian sourcebook! *g* or at least attempt it. . .
Well, if you use Kingdom of Champions and Justice Not Law (and probably
San Angelo) as your templates, and get lots of feedback, and send out
evaluation copies to folks whose judgement you trust, then it'd probably
come out a good volume.
I don't doubt that I'd buy it myself even if it was only second rate.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 19:35:35 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Vehicle Help Part II
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 05:49 PM 12/21/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>I'm working on some vehicles for my kazei Five sourcebook and need to know
>the following:
>
>Does onyone have any idea of the performance characteristics for the V-22
>Osprey tiltwing? Size, mass, speed, that sort of thing.
I'd like to get that information not only for the V-22, but for any
other real-world aircraft as well. And boats, motorcycles, and whatever.
Or, if anyone has built stats for such vehicles, that would be even better.
Just send the info directly to me (including corporate web page URLs).
:-]
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for Hero players & GMs
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 03:52:01 +0000 (GMT)
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>
> GoldRushG writes:
>
> > << If you are looking for a group, START ONE! >>
> > Hear, hear!
> > To that end, I have been considering starting page on our web
> > sitte for Hero gamers to find other Hero gamers. A "frind Hero
> > GMs/players classified" listing of sorts. What do you folks think of
> > that idea? Webmasters, would you create a link to such a page? Heck,
> > we could also post listings of Hero games scheduled for various
> > cons!
>
> Sounds like an excellent idea. To date, I think people mostly
> use this list and the newsgroups for this purpose, but having one on
> the web site makes it more publically accessible, plus it certainly
> pushes the sense of Hero being a live and well and promoted strongly
> by the publisher.
>
Yeah, it's a good idea. While any one of us with a website
could do it; having it on a publisher's page looks better. We need
to make people who turn to the web for Hero stuff start going to the
publisher's pages and finding it there, rather than hunting about until
they hit a fan site by chance, and follow the links there to everyone
else.
> Hm... speaking of which, the herogames.com site doesn't really
> make it obvious that GoldRush Games is out there. I guess that's
> something between GoldRush and Hero, but I'd hope to see better
> cross-promotion. Then again, Hero's site could be a lot more
>
Well, I imagine as soon as Goldrush does a Fuzion book for
New Millenium we'll see this one. But before that I doubt I'd see much
more than token mentions.
> 1) Have each player/group put in a physical address including zip
> code, contact info, etc. Players seeking a game or GMs seeking
> players can then enter their zip code and find the nearest players.
>
I'd argue against addresses. Maybe just as much as city.
I didn't even give a phone number or address to people when I put up the
add I used to form my current group. Just an email and website. You'd
be amazed at the number of wierdo's out there. My last group did use
phone numbers on boards to advertize, and between the few people they got;
they got loads of phone calls with heavy breather's or guys describing the
tutu they were wearing at that moment... And these were men calling men...
You give me a listing by city and I can email the people in it
and see who's interested in attending my game. Providing they meet me
at a neutral location for a sanity test first. :)
One good example of this is webRPG's player database utility
( http://www.webrpg.com/?link=registry/main.html )
Only problem they have is it's not smart enough to give me people
who listed their state as CA if I ask for California... So you have to
search twice. :) But I got two local players from it, and found about 10 more
within an 80 mile radius.
>
> The ideal, of course, would be to have a both a free-form search
> utility (keywords, etc) and a way for the player to specify their
> location and how far they're willing to travel, and get a listing of
> entries within that range.
>
I think this is more than what's needed though. All you need
is a name, GM and/or Player, city, email, optional phone number, optional
homepage, games you play (list all of publishers games here in a drop
down menu), and a notes section on the form to describe your style of
play and any info you feel you want to relay.
> 2) Each time a user puts an entry in, they include an e-mail contact.
> Each entry goes on hold after a set period of time. The entry is
> removed from the general listings, but kept. The proper URL to renew
> the entry is e-mailed to the contact address, so the player doesn't
> have to retype all of the info. If the entry isn't renewed, it's
> eventually deleted (say, each entry is live for two months and then
> on hold for two months).
>
Send an email out 2 weeks before removal, then another one week
before, then a final one the day before removal. The message of the email
simply being a 'Hello, do you still wish to remain on our list of gamers?"
Then providing the URL of where to go to update yourself.
Rook -- Who is definatly NOT wearing a tutu right now.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams)
Date: 21 Dec 97 19:52:28 -0800
Subject: Gameworld, ect
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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There is a networld place in Finalnd. I forget the url and such. But check out
Yahoo.
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: An odd suplement
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 04:00:41 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> A small series of adventures for Champions bound like a comic book.
> I'm not sure if this would be cheaper than publishing an entire
> adventure. It would be less fleshy and less in depth than alot of supplements
> due to size.
> A plus to this is that you could include inserts in the center page
> (you know, the one with the staples that keeps the damn thing together?),
> like maps or minatures. Throw in one or two full page spreads of the villian,
> so you can show 'em too your players, and you've got it made.
> The downside is that you're stcuk with something as thin and fragile
> as a comic book.
Actually, I like this. Perhaps if Adventurers Club were ever revived
it could be put out on comic book paper, size and binding with a comic book
like cover.
Or perhaps a monthly comic/game mag could be made that was half one,
and half the other. Published in the format and style of a comic book.
Not sure how feasable this is. I hear from rec.arts.comics.misc
that at $2.95/comic retail, it takes about 10000 copies sold to break
even for a black and white, and about double that for color. Don't think that
included money made on adds though.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams)
Date: 21 Dec 97 20:09:34 -0800
Subject: National Superteam
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
I once had a sort of national super team, whose mission was to defeat the alien
invasion from another dimension. Sort of a cross of Espionague and Hero.
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Super Character Concept Question: Rubpert's Shadow
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 04:12:46 +0000 (GMT)
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Hello;
Got a wierd idea today on the bus to work. When one has to work
during the holidays, the mind finds odd ideas to deal with it.
"Rubpert's Shadow" is just that. There's this normal guy walking about
only his shadow is a Super. The shadow is stuck with him though, where
Rubpert goes, it goes.
What are the best ways of doing this? Which of the below ideas sounds the
least like a 'rules kludge':
1. Rubpert is a 14- DNPC with a special effect that he's actually ALWAYS there.
2. Rubpert is bought as a follower
3. Rubpert is a normal guy with duplication to give him the shadow.
4. The shadow has duplication to give it Rubpert.
Rubpert would be a 25 point normal, the Shadow an X point super, where
X=the games point level. Unless of course, option 3 is used.
What kind of abilities would fit the shadow's theme?
I know it would most likely have stretching. Desolid is another near given.
For the stuck together part I'm thinking a physical lim on the shadow.
Could be interesting to have Rubpert have a physical lim that he wakes up
in different places quite a lot. :)
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Izzylobo <Izzylobo@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 23:33:57 EST
Subject: subscribe
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
subscribe champ-l scott taylor
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 23:41:23 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: New Limitation: Puncture
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> f > Puncture (-1/4)
>
>That one's cute... I've always just use special F/X for that
>sort of thing, but I'll probably start using it for my game...
>
>One thing to consider... you can't knock a hole you can walk
>through in a wass using a .44 magnum - but you *can* hurt
>people on the other side - maybe a -0 or +1/4 advantage
>version of the above?
In a case where it makes logical sense for a round to 'pass through' a wall
without doing large, hole-type damage, I'd just subtract the DEF of the wall
from the BODY of the Killing Attack (note: I doubt most 'normal' attacks
could justify this SFX). Ignore the BODY of the wall (no real damage to the
wall, as it would take dozens of bullets/punctures to seriously impair its
integrity). So that brick wall (DEF 6) would pretty consistantly stop most
small arms fire cold (1D6 RKA). Don't forget, though, that there's a 'blade'
limitation (-1/4) on most 'realistic' edged weapons (introduced in TUMA and
Dark Champions, IIRC) that will prevent them from doing wierd stuff like
stabbing through concrete walls. With superhero stuff, though, all bets are off.
As for 'bypassing' the DEF of a wall entirely, that's what Indirect is for.
Indirect: Bypasses Barriers (+1/2), or some such.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 20:49:44 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: So
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 05:54 PM 12/21/97 -0800, Opal wrote:
> b > >I still think there should be the cheapie 5pt for any number
> b > version...
> b > >just so the Millitant Millipede doesn't cost 1000 points (at 1 per
> b > >limb) :)
> b >
> b > As I've said, I just have a problem with the idea of 100 arms
> b > the same as having a prehensile tail.
> b > I've proposed a different cost structure (which I personally like
> b > little better, BTW) which gives a character 2X limbs for +5 points,
> b > provides appropriate Limitations for the limbs being tentacles and
> b > haven't gotten any feedback on whether that works for most folks
> b > If that's too expensive, maybe 2 points per 2X limbs would work.
>
>I can see charging per 'useful' limb... but, I guess at some
>point they just become special effects...
>
>Extra Limb would have to define the advantages of multiple limbs...
>any ideas?
Well, for one thing, your character can carry multiple things at once.
With six arms, he could be talking on the telephone, holding a flashlight,
eating a pizza, driving a car with manual transmission, and firing a gun
all at the same time.
If Gangfire rules are permitted, then the same character could also fire
six hand-held weapons at once. He can also do the Sweep maneuver with six
Disarms, whether Gangfire rules are permitted or not.
(He can also count to thirty on his fingers, but that's not that helpful.)
> b > You know, I'd never really considered the relative utility of Flash
> b > Defense before you pointed it out... but OTOH it's extremely easy to
> b > virtually impervious to Flashes. And Flashes to other Sense Groups
>
>Right, because there's really only two levels of protection against
>Flash: virtually useless (you're blind and helpless for at least
>a phase) and virtually impervious (you're not).
Being Flashed doesn't always mean you're blind. Sometimes it means
you're deaf, or your radio won't work, or your mental powers are off kilter...
> b > are not
> b > quite as useful (though I do have villains who can Flash Hearing,
> b > Mental, Radio, and even Smell Sense Groups).
>
>True... then again, if you compare the cost of protecting all your
>senses from a flash, it does come out to costing about half as
>much as the attack. :)
...as this part points out.
(That AVLD vs Smell Flash Defense is a real stinker!)
> b >
> b > >Heck, all movement powers should be limited 'Movement' :)
> b > >(Except Teleport, it would be Indirect Movement)
> b >
> b > I don't know that I'd go for that. (Maybe in the 6th Edition.)
> b >
>
>No really, it's a great idea. And movement, knockback, falling, and
>move by/through, should all have a consistent system for causing damge,
>that takes into account all of the nitpicky physics questions....
>and whoever does TUSV should be *writing* rules like that!
>
><just kidding>
Consolidation of movement is something that probably belongs in The
Ultimate Speedster. Whether it's actually addressed there or not, I don't
know, but from someone who's seen the manuscript I get the impression that
it is, but not to the extent you'd probably like.
> b > > b > - Damage Shield should be clarified so that *any* significant
> b > > b > contact, including the character with DS making an attack a
> b > target, will cause damage.
> b > >
> b > >That would make it considerably more powerful... have to raise
> b > >the Adv level too.
> b >
> b > See, that's the point, and that's why I said "clarified." Many of
> b > don't think that would make it more powerful at all because that's how
> b > already works, it just doesn't say so clearly enough.
> b >
>
>I think it's pretty clearly stated that only a Grab manuever will do it
>offensively.
If you look closely, it doesn't say that *only* a Grab maneuver will do
it offensively; it just says that it will. Whether it was the writers'
intent at the time that other hand-to-hand attacks wouldn't do the damage,
or simply to address the issue of how Grabbing someone with your Damage
Shield up would work, is not as certain as you might think.
Even if you're right, though, there's a big problem. Why, logically
speaking, should a Grab cause the Damage Shield to activate, and a Punch
not do it?
This, I think is another case of something from a 3rd Edition supplement
being transferred into the 4th Edition, but being rewritten into something
confusing without explanation of why it supposedly works the way a literal
reading would cause it to work. There's no logical reason (other than
certain SFX) I can think of that Hero A's Damage Shield should damage
Villain B when Villain B punches Hero A, or when Hero A grabs Villain B,
but not when Hero A punches Villain B.
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 22:05:12 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Official Rulings (was Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Vox Ludator! wrote:
>
> At 12:15 PM 12/21/97 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:
> >One may feel that the PTO should not have patented the CCG, but that is a
> >different story. Remember that this is the same PTO that briefly allowed
> >a patent on Hypertext.
>
> Well, I prefer to let people decide for themselves. Here's the document in
> question.
Thanks for posting the actual document, although it was not necessary to
do so three times. I should have made it clear that I had not reviewed
the application and was reacting to the general concept of patenting the
concept of a trading card game, which, SFAIK, was novel to M:TG.
Given that IBM has, within the last few years, filed applications for
decades-old algorithms that became only recently patentable, there must
be some exceptions in the law to the two year period you mention,
although I do not pretend to know what they are. In theory, the job of
the PTO is to weed out bad applications during the comment period.
Unfortunately, they do not seem to understand software or games very
well, and they have, IMHO, granted patents that should have been laughed
out of existence. This creates a windfall for lawyers and a burden on
businesses.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 00:05:15 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Looking for GMs was (Re: Looking for Phoenix Players)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>Is there anyone on this list from Phoenix or its surrounding cities? I
>would love to get involved with a group this upcoming year, but haven't seen
>much that I like around here lately. There is a large gaming group that
>meets very near my apartment in Mesa, but they all play Fuzion, which I
>neither like nor own.
Since we are on the subject of the survival of Champions 4, it is posts like
this that I feel need to be addressed in some way. Please do not take this
as insulting. I realize that sometime there is just no other way to look
for games then to post on a list. But.....
Over the past few weeks we have been talking about Gold Rush Games as well
as players and GMs making Champions and Hero Games more open to the public
eye. By turning to the list and asking for a game, sure you may find
players, but it isn't going to help the survival of Champions or Hero Games.
Now I don't know your situation, so this may not apply to you in general,
but it has to fit one person out of all the "Is there a group here?" posts
I've read in the few years I've been on the list. If you are looking for a
group, START ONE! Go down to the comic book store, gaming store, coffee
house, etc. and put a note up on their bulletin board saying GM looking for
players for a Champions 4th Edition game. Please call or sign your name and
number here. We will meet at x place to play on this week. You'd be
suprise at the fact that you'll have a waiting list. Like I said, this may
not apply to you. Not all people have access to a public place to post or
play. Not all people are GMs. Not all people care one way or the other
about the survival of Champions 4th Ed. I just chose your post as a way to
express something that has been chewing on me for a while every time I see
something similar to this, I want to join a group but not start one
attitude. Of course the game won't survive if everyone is just looking for
someone else to carry it. Please take no offense at this if it does not
apply to you. Please take it into careful consideration though if you are
one of the ones hoping Hero Games doesn't die and you have a chance to do
something about it. Thank you for letting me stand on my soap box here, now
back to your regular list readings :) Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
=====================================================
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 23:40:45 -0700
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Re: Building A Super Hero World
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Jamie Rosen wrote:
>
> >
> >At 04:18 AM 12/21/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote:
> >>WatchTower is a global organization dedicating to combating Super
> >>Human and related threats. The group is semi private. It traces
> >>it's origins to a private group formed after the second world war.
> >
> > The only feedback I can think of to give you right off the top of my
> >head isa recommendation of changing the organization's name. It's a good
> >name in principle, but also happens to be the name of the publishing arm
> >for the Jehovah's Witnesses.
> > As a replacement, I suggest WatchGuard.
>
> Ick. I think WatchTower is much better...sure, the Jehovah's Witnesses
> publishing arm is called that. It's also a real word, which (IMHO) can do
> wonders for the believability of a fictional organization.
It also has the added advantage of having a built in theme song by Jimi
Hendrix. 8)
(The superhero team in my campaign has gone by Watchtower since 1986 and
has had that for thier theme song.)
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 01:55:42 EST
Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
<< a) There are 6 hobby/gaming stores..., plus numerous Waldenbooks, Kroch's,
etc. that I've purchased RPG materials at in the past few months. /One/ of
them had HERO materials of any kind in the store, and it was buried in the
back in an old
box. >>
The fact that there are not any *new* Heor products available yet does not
indicate necessarily that *no* Hero products are available. We were talking
about availability. Hero products are available and Hero Games (and GRG) are
still in business. That Hero Games is out of business and/or that Hero
products are no longer in print is what was in question. Clearly niether is a
"true" rumor.
<< b) Hero Games repeatedly stated during the marshmallow roast following the
Fuzion announcement that Fuzion/C:TNM was necessary because Champions just
wasn't selling. >>
This may be true, but has little bearing on the availability of 4th Ed. Hero
products.
<< c) C:TNM has already gotten more distributor and advertising support than I
ever saw for HERO. To put it another way, Hero Games has tried to sell Fuzion
to me, whereas I had to go out and buy HERO. >>
Thanks to RTG. They are the ones footing the bill for the advertising of
Fuzion their products, including Bubblegum Crisis RPG and AT: Votoms RPG, not
Hero Games.
<< I don't mind your frustration over trying to sell to a market that doesn't
understand you're still there, but please don't blame it on the market. The
blame rests squarely on the shoulders of the original source.>>
That's where we obviously disagree. I concede that we maintain a certain
level of responsibility to promote our products, but don't presume to blame us
of Hero games for other people spreading false rumors. That's ridiculous.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 01:55:43 EST
Subject: Re: Fuzion/Hero Conversio
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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I agree the lethality level is a little different, but that, too, can be
adjusted to reflect more of a "four color" game. And also, letholity wasn't in
question. I thought we were talking about conversions. ;)
Mark @ GRG
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 00:58:33 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Re: Building A Super Hero World
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There was a cool comic a few years back called the Protectors. In it Super
Teams had been outlawed because there was a battle between the Gov sponsored
team The Protectors, and a Super Villain called Jackdaw, or some such.
Anyway, they blew up a whole town! So out of fear they outlawed Teams of
heroes.
You could have a famous event where a team of S-Soldiers got a little too
Ramboish and waxed a town...
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 02:16:50 EST
Subject: Re: Building A Super Hero World
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< There was a cool comic a few years back called the Protectors. ...they blew
up a whole town! So out of fear they outlawed Teams of heroes.>>
That's interesting. It just reminded me of a California Penal Code that, if
applied to supers, would mean that any 2 or more supervillains who wore
similar costumes (or had a common name, or identifying logo, slogan, etc.) and
who committed crimes in the furtherance of their association would fall under
the definition of a "gang" here in California. That provides me with some
interesting ideas, and so it should to Pat. Oh, Pat? Are you reading this? ;)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 02:26:17 EST
Subject: Re: GRG: Possible Sourcebooks?
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<< Well, with the interest you expressed in a Canadian sourcebook, and some
of the discussion of an Aussie one, do you think GRG would be able to do a
series of non-US Champions sourcebooks (Canada, Australia, England, etc.) >>
Assuming that Hero Games approved each manuscript, we absolutely could do
this. Remember, we have the 4th Edition publishing license. With Hero's
blessings, of course, anything's possible. ;)
Mark @ GRG
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: New Limitation: Puncture
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 01:05:45 -0800
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On Sunday, December 21, 1997 10:44 AM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
>F> However, a .44 Magnum cannot make such a hole. Since such a hole
is
>F> extremely useful at times, it is at least worth noting that this
is a
>F> limitation, if not a Limitation.
>
>You are not thinking it through. With my .44 Magnum, the most
powerful
>handgun in the world, I do not need to blow a hole in the door, I
just need
>to shoot out the lock. :)
I said, "wall", not door. Don't change my example in order to change
it to a straw man. It is impolite, and a poor argument.
According to the rules, I should be able to, _with a single round_
from a .44 Magnum, blow a hole in the side of my house considerably
larger than the side of my house. Seven BODY creates a man-sized hole,
the additional possibility of 5 BODY doubles the size of the hole to
_16 hexes_, considerably larger than the side of my house.
>It is not a flaw in the rules, it is the -0 SFX
advantages/limitations that
>any power may have. Some Energy Blasts can blast holes in walls,
some
>cannot... but the ones that cannot may be used for doing things like
being
>used at low power to flip a switch or push a button, things that the
>"wider" effects cannot do. And before you call me on, "but that is
TK!"
>let me just mention that it is also clever use of a power. If you do
it
>once you can get away with it. If you do it frequently, then you
have to
>pay for it.
Please show me the added utility of a firearm that makes up for it's
inability to create holes big enough to blow the front off of my
house, and instead create small, round holes, no larger than my fist.
You want to claim that's a flaw in the rules? I agree. Want to claim
that's _minor_? Give me a break.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: New Limitation: Puncture
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 01:25:23 -0800
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On Sunday, December 21, 1997 7:56 PM, John and Ron Prins wrote:
<snip>
>Don't forget, though, that there's a 'blade'
>limitation (-1/4) on most 'realistic' edged weapons (introduced in
TUMA and
>Dark Champions, IIRC) that will prevent them from doing wierd stuff
like
>stabbing through concrete walls. With superhero stuff, though, all
bets are off.
Hmmm. I don't know that one. That may be a good base for the
limitation, with variations for real guns and other, similar weapons
not having the mass destruction effects the Hero rules call for. For
example, "Bladed weapons should use the blade limitation, rather than
puncture. The inability to chop with a rapier is made up for by the
ability to stab through really small holes, thus negating the need for
using Puncture on top of Blade."
I don't know, as I don't know what the "Blade" limitation entails.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Building A Super Hero World
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 01:32:44 -0800
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On Sunday, December 21, 1997 10:04 PM, Curtis Gibson wrote:
>Jamie Rosen wrote:
<snip>
>> Ick. I think WatchTower is much better...sure, the Jehovah's
Witnesses
>> publishing arm is called that. It's also a real word, which (IMHO)
can do
>> wonders for the believability of a fictional organization.
>
>It also has the added advantage of having a built in theme song by
Jimi
>Hendrix. 8)
>
>(The superhero team in my campaign has gone by Watchtower since 1986
and
>has had that for thier theme song.)
>
I have had a four person singing group in my campaign, young cyborgs
all, who called themselves the Electric Youth, and the song that in
our world was by Debbie Gibson was their trademark song. They used
their powers for special effects. (Don't ask where they got their
technology, their story changes every time. Last time, it was one they
got from my wife's character, who doesn't actually know where her
cybernetics came from-- fairy god aliens.:)
Filksinger
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 04:44:09 EST
Subject: Looking for Hero players & GMs
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< If you are looking for a group, START ONE! >>
Hear, hear!
To that end, I have been considering starting page on our web sitte for Hero
gamers to find other Hero gamers. A "frind Hero GMs/players classified"
listing of sorts. What do you folks think of that idea? Webmasters, would you
create a link to such a page? Heck, we could also post listings of Hero games
scheduled for various cons!
Mark @ GRG
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 02:10:42 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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I (Steven J. Owens) wrote:
> << Try to have a constant flow of products coming out, and promote
> each one, before it comes out, as it comes out, and after it comes
> out.>>
Mark @ GoldRush Games writes:
> At what point does this become a negative factor, though? I mean,
> some of the gripes about Fuzion is that is was over hyped. I'm not
> saying I agree with that assertion, but it has been stated here...
There's a definite risk of over-hyping. I guess I should clarify.
The key is persistent, but not over-the-top promotion. Think of the
promotion of your company and product as if you were telling a story.
You get the attention of your audience, then you have to keep it, and
continue to build on it. You can't keep jumping up and saying "Hey
everybody! I have something to say!" and then say something, sit down,
and jump up a while later to start all over again. You have to keep
building the pitch, building the audience's interest in your story.
Another analogy to compare the process to is building a readership in a
publication.
Yes, it's a balance. No, I don't have easy answers. A couple
of ideas, I do have:
Obviously there are some risks and pitfalls in this process. The
big one is vaporware; I've been involved in publishing books, so I
know it can be tricky to predict the scheduling. With a more creative
process, I imagine it's even trickier. I'd guess the best way to do
it is to have a long pipeline of books under development, so you can
start promoting a book when it goes to final edit, build up as it goes
to the printer, come to the climax as it ships, and then have an
epilogue afterwards. By the time one book is approaching the climax
of the promotion process, you start the promotion for the next book.
Hopefully you get a consistent flow, so you have a regular series
of peaks.
Idea: to start the promotion of the next product in the pipeline,
include some promotional material with each book, either as an insert
or as a stack of flyers to be shipped with the book so the retailers
put them up or hand them out or have a stack on the shelf.
Heck, maybe put out some sort of four-page (i.e a single 11"x17"
sheet folded in half) free "mini" supplement. Put an attention-grabbing
cover on the first page, a promotional on the last page. Put some sort
of two-page game content in the middle, either an article or an
editorial, or a short comic if you can find the talent to produce one in
regular installments.
Steven J. Owens
puff@netcom.com
puff@rt1.net
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for Hero players & GMs
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 02:29:19 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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GoldRushG writes:
> << If you are looking for a group, START ONE! >>
> Hear, hear!
> To that end, I have been considering starting page on our web
> sitte for Hero gamers to find other Hero gamers. A "frind Hero
> GMs/players classified" listing of sorts. What do you folks think of
> that idea? Webmasters, would you create a link to such a page? Heck,
> we could also post listings of Hero games scheduled for various
> cons!
Sounds like an excellent idea. To date, I think people mostly
use this list and the newsgroups for this purpose, but having one on
the web site makes it more publically accessible, plus it certainly
pushes the sense of Hero being a live and well and promoted strongly
by the publisher.
Hm... speaking of which, the herogames.com site doesn't really
make it obvious that GoldRush Games is out there. I guess that's
something between GoldRush and Hero, but I'd hope to see better
cross-promotion. Then again, Hero's site could be a lot more
effective in general. Hm. Maybe I should drop them a line.
Here're a couple suggestions for the design:
1) Have each player/group put in a physical address including zip
code, contact info, etc. Players seeking a game or GMs seeking
players can then enter their zip code and find the nearest players.
You should be able to find a decent map database of zip codes &
coordinates to build this on. If nothing else, you can group entries
by the first couple digits of their zip codes, and perhaps have a link
with each entry that sends the user to yahoo maps or mapquest or some
similar service, so they can see how close that address is to their
location.
The ideal, of course, would be to have a both a free-form search
utility (keywords, etc) and a way for the player to specify their
location and how far they're willing to travel, and get a listing of
entries within that range.
2) Each time a user puts an entry in, they include an e-mail contact.
Each entry goes on hold after a set period of time. The entry is
removed from the general listings, but kept. The proper URL to renew
the entry is e-mailed to the contact address, so the player doesn't
have to retype all of the info. If the entry isn't renewed, it's
eventually deleted (say, each entry is live for two months and then
on hold for two months).
You could implement this in a number of different ways, probably
using a simple flat-text database. If you need some assistance, drop
me a line.
Steven J. Owens
puff@netcom.com
puff@rt1.net
http://www.rt1.net/puff
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 06:07:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Building A Super Hero World
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Sun, 21 Dec 1997, Curtis Gibson wrote:
> > Ick. I think WatchTower is much better...sure, the Jehovah's Witnesses
> > publishing arm is called that. It's also a real word, which (IMHO) can do
> > wonders for the believability of a fictional organization.
>
> It also has the added advantage of having a built in theme song by Jimi
> Hendrix. 8)
I hate to break the news guys, but "All Along the Watchtower" is a song by
Bob Dylan. Jimi just happened to get his cover of the song out first.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 04:22:14 -0700
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Super Hero theme songs (was Re: Building ...)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Filksinger wrote:
>
> On Sunday, December 21, 1997 10:04 PM, Curtis Gibson wrote:
> >(The superhero team in my campaign has gone by Watchtower since 1986
> and has had that for thier theme song.) <the Hendrix song - All along the Watchtower)
> >
>
> I have had a four person singing group in my campaign, young cyborgs
> all, who called themselves the Electric Youth, and the song that in
> our world was by Debbie Gibson was their trademark song. They used
> their powers for special effects. (Don't ask where they got their
> technology, their story changes every time. Last time, it was one they
> got from my wife's character, who doesn't actually know where her
> cybernetics came from-- fairy god aliens.:)
>
> Filksinger
The thing started here when the tabloids would run a story on Watchtower
and they played the Hendrix in the background, then the News media
started doing the same.
It lead to an interesting concept. The team memebers each chose a 'theme
song' and had the billionare industriliest of the team bankroll the
production, and relaesed a 'Watchtower' CD. The proceeds all went to
charity, of course.
Now I, as GM, couldn't let this pass, so I made a tape with those songs,
and when next we played I had it playing in the background. It only took
two songs for the players to realize what I had done.
Side note- the Watchtower has had thier base on the moon for 6 years,
and alongs comes the new JLA with the base named watchtower on the
moon.... GRRR. 8)
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 06:23:58 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: An odd suplement
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...this was an idea I had a while back, and I'm not sure if it's been
used.
...I'm not sure it's even probable. Feel free to tear this one apart.
A small series of adventures for Champions bound like a comic book.
After a few pages of introduction which are frames from a comic book, it would
go into detail about the adventure itself. The first few pages of 'comic
book' frames would give the GM an idea of how the NPCs act, and how things
in the adventure (in general) look.
I'm not sure if this would be cheaper than publishing an entire
adventure. It would be less fleshy and less in depth than alot of supplements
due to size.
A plus to this is that you could include inserts in the center page
(you know, the one with the staples that keeps the damn thing together?),
like maps or minatures. Throw in one or two full page spreads of the villian,
so you can show 'em too your players, and you've got it made.
The downside is that you're stcuk with something as thin and fragile
as a comic book.
-Jason Sullivan
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:37:43 +0000
From: ORT2 <ORT2@prodigy.net>
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Organization: Prodigy Internet
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unsubscribe
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 05:39:32 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Re: An odd suplement
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AA small series of adventures for Champions bound like a comic book.
There is a company called Fractal Demnsions doing something ver similar.
They call them Gamelets. Though none of those are Super Hero games.
Personally I think it is a great idea, so good in fact I have thought of it
myself...
Michael
(You see this Mark?)
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 05:45:19 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Re: Super Hero theme songs
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I have always found inspiration from music. I have named and based heros,
villains, organizations and even one whole campaign after music.
Blue Oyster Cult has been a constant source of ideas, as has Queensryche.
Michael
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 05:02:54 -0700
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Re: Building A Super Hero World
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
> On Sun, 21 Dec 1997, Curtis Gibson wrote:
>
> > > Ick. I think WatchTower is much better...sure, the Jehovah's Witnesses
> > > publishing arm is called that. It's also a real word, which (IMHO) can do
> > > wonders for the believability of a fictional organization.
> >
> > It also has the added advantage of having a built in theme song by Jimi
> > Hendrix. 8)
>
> I hate to break the news guys, but "All Along the Watchtower" is a song by
> Bob Dylan. Jimi just happened to get his cover of the song out first.
ARRRGH. I knew this too. It's just that the Hendrix is the only copy
that we had when this idea was introduced IMC (Years ago), that version
has wrapped itself around my brainstem.
Thanks for the reminder though.
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 05:11:42 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: GRG: Possible Sourcebooks?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 09:02 PM 12/21/97 -0500, Jamie Rosen wrote:
>Well, with the interest you expressed in a Canadian sourcebook, and some
>of the discussion of an Aussie one, do you think GRG would be able to do a
>series of non-US Champions sourcebooks (Canada, Australia, England, etc.)
Absolutely.
If possible, I'd recommend going the same route Hero did, in using
authors actually living in the respective countries, at least for the three
books you mention. (And cover the whole UK, not just England.)
A Japanese sourcebook would be a good idea too.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 05:20:51 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Inhibit Characteristic
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 05:32 PM 12/21/97 -0800, Opal wrote:
> b > Another thing: is this an Instant Power with a constant effect
> b > Entangle or Transform), or a Constant Power? I got the impression
> b > this is Constant, which makes it useless for things like oil slicks or
> b > Zambonis, whose effects stay around for a while.
>
>It probably should be constant... but you can always add Uncontrolled
>to an AE version to get an oil slick that sticks around for
>a defined period.
The problem with that solution is, oil slicks don't stick around for a
pre-defined period. They just stick around, until someone cleans them up.
The proposed new Advantage to allow a Power to cost END only for startup
would be appropriate here. This will create the effect normally, but the
effect will stay around until it's reversed, like Entangle or Transform.
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 08:57:02 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On 12/20/97 11:10 AM, Stainless Steel Rat (ratinox@peorth.gweep.net) Said:
>Yeah, because turning a dragon into a frog is going to be really useful to
>the now ex-dragon.
But you previously said that it doesn't matter who the transform is
useful to...
>F> If you turn your enemy to stone, that has just become useful to you,
>F> since the enemy can't attack you anymore.
>
>You could have killed him instead. You are not creating something useful,
>you are crippling your opponent. You have not created something, you have
>turned your enemy into something else.
Yes, but now you can build a bridge out of him. Try doing that with a
typical corpse.
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:21:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: New Limitation: Puncture
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 22 Dec 1997, Filksinger wrote:
>
> Please show me the added utility of a firearm that makes up for it's
> inability to create holes big enough to blow the front off of my
> house, and instead create small, round holes, no larger than my fist.
>
> You want to claim that's a flaw in the rules? I agree. Want to claim
> that's _minor_? Give me a break.
>
This reminds me of a story. I was playing in a Dark Champions game with
other players including Geoff Speare. Our group of gun-toting vigilantes
needed to dig up a coffin (long story!) and wanted to do so quickly. Geoff
facetiously suggested we all aim our guns at the dirt, doing its body in a
few phases. Rulewise, it would work.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 06:32:20 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for Hero players & GMs
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 04:44 AM 12/22/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< If you are looking for a group, START ONE! >>
>
> Hear, hear!
>
> To that end, I have been considering starting page on our web sitte for
Hero
>gamers to find other Hero gamers. A "frind Hero GMs/players classified"
>listing of sorts. What do you folks think of that idea? Webmasters, would you
>create a link to such a page? Heck, we could also post listings of Hero games
>scheduled for various cons!
I certainly would put link to that on my Hero Links Page.
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:37:08 -0500
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: New Limitation: Puncture
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> This reminds me of a story. I was playing in a Dark Champions game with
> other players including Geoff Speare. Our group of gun-toting vigilantes
> needed to dig up a coffin (long story!) and wanted to do so quickly. Geoff
> facetiously suggested we all aim our guns at the dirt, doing its body in a
> few phases. Rulewise, it would work.
This thread puts me in mind of a "joke" video my college buddies and I thought
up based on "what the world would be like if it used Hero rules".
The first scene was the hero shooting the door with his gun and having a
"man-sized" hole appear (as per the rules; we wondered at the time if
characters using Shrinking create smaller holes :-). I forget the middle part,
but toward the end the hero runs out back to the parking lot, where the
villains are. He draws his gun for combat -- and suddenly the ground is
covered with hexes. Everyone turns and gives dirty looks to the thug who's
standing on a hex-line, until he sheepishly jumps into a hex. Then you get a
fight where everyone is constantly weaving and dodging around (within their
hex, of course!), but only one person acts at a time. (And of course, one of
the characters takes forever to make his move. :-)
Geoff Speare
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:44:02 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>15 VPP(5), Cosmic (+2)
>17 1d6 Absorption, +10 max., feeds to maximum Absorption and VPP,
>fade 5/day (+1 1/2), only vs electricity (-1/2)
>
>Since wall sockets do damage, he could charge up quickly with this
>power to an absolutely enormous power level.
Not really. Without the +2 advantage (all powers of a given SFX), he
shouldn't be able to absorb to his VPP. Besides, we all know that absorbing
to your absorption capacity is abusive, neh? :-)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:44:04 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: New Limitation: Puncture
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>I don't know, as I don't know what the "Blade" limitation entails.
Basically, the "Blade" limitation limits knives et.al. to only doing things
they reasonably should be able to do. So that ordinary knife (1D6 HKA)
shouldn't be able to cut that DEF 8 steel cable (2D6 HKA w/ STR means
eventually that a simple blade will cut, but not with the blade limitation).
Katanas can't cut through rock. And so on. Also, blades get dull (lose DCs)
if used improperly, until re-sharpened. Easily 'ignored' in superheroic play
(i.e. don't take the limitation if you wanna do Excalibur tricks), but
suitable for 'realistic' weapons.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:50:48 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: TUSV: Propulsion Features
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>>Anyway, I'm hoping TUSV will feature
>>a lot of 'defined' vehicle disadvantages, stuff like Maximum Ceiling,
>>Maximum Climbing Angle, Requires a Runway...
>>
>>Say, will the dangerous effects of various propulsion features be explained
>>as Champs powers? Helicopter blades would be a Burnout HKA linked to Flight,
>>or an RKA to simulate jetwash, etc. etc...
>
> I'm glad you mentioned this... AND I WISH YOU'D MENTIONED IT A COUPLE OF
>WEEKS AGO WHEN I REALLY NEEDED IT. :-]
> Anyway, I think it's a little late to get it into the first draft, but
>there's plenty of time to add it before the final one goes out.
> BTW, Requires a Runway is a combination of Stall Velocity on Flight, and
>Half Value on Bad Roads on Ground Movement (Running).
Say, do yourself a favor and go borrow somebody's copy of the Jovain
Chronicles Companion. Very good vehicle build system which should provide
you with lots of ideas.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Subject: Re: DP9 Marketing
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 09:56:42 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
cc: <champ-l@omg.org>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On 12/20/97 6:15 PM, Brian Wong (rook@shell.infinex.com) Said:
>Vaccuum tubes are often more reliable than transitors.
Not to stray too far here, but: No way. Vacuum tubes get hot. Very hot.
They fail at ridiculous rates if you don't keep they cool. They fail even
if they are cool.
This quote is from the washington post article archived at
<http://search.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1997-12/10/041l-121097-idx.
html>.
The first large computer, the 30-ton ENIAC built at the University
of
Pennsylvania in 1946, had 18,000 vacuum tubes, each containing a
filament that glowed red hot. It required 150 kilowatts, or about
200
horsepower, to keep it running. That meant it generated tremendous
amounts of heat that had to be removed lest the tubes burn out in
droves. Many did anyway, and bushel baskets of spares were kept on
hand.
Yet the computing power of these room-sized early computers is
surpassed
by that of today's common pocket calculator.
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:02:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Super Hero theme songs
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 22 Dec 1997, Michael Nunn wrote:
> I have always found inspiration from music. I have named and based heros,
> villains, organizations and even one whole campaign after music.
>
> Blue Oyster Cult has been a constant source of ideas, as has Queensryche.
Tell me about it.
In my first Champions game ever, my character is returned from the
dimension of Limbo (much like Marvel's Limbo) just as BOC's "Veteran of
the Psychic Wars" tell us "I've been living on the edge too long, where
the winds of Limbo roar".
We all stopped, stared at the stereo, and my character had that a his
theme ever since. In fact, my stereo was dubbed 'the haunted stereo' for
its tendency to lin up the current tape/cd with the action. Such as when
I called "Phase Twelve" and the stereo bellowed "Mortal Kombat!!!"
(quickly followed by "Jagger, your move" stereo: "Let Mortal Kombat
begin!")
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:03:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Building A Super Hero World
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 22 Dec 1997, Curtis Gibson wrote:
> Michael Surbrook wrote:
> > I hate to break the news guys, but "All Along the Watchtower" is a song by
> > Bob Dylan. Jimi just happened to get his cover of the song out first.
>
> ARRRGH. I knew this too. It's just that the Hendrix is the only copy
> that we had when this idea was introduced IMC (Years ago), that version
> has wrapped itself around my brainstem.
>
> Thanks for the reminder though.
Hey, as far as I'm concerned, Jimi's is the definitive version, of which
all others are pale imitations.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:04:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 22 Dec 1997, David Fair wrote:
> >F> If you turn your enemy to stone, that has just become useful to you,
> >F> since the enemy can't attack you anymore.
> >
> >You could have killed him instead. You are not creating something useful,
> >you are crippling your opponent. You have not created something, you have
> >turned your enemy into something else.
>
> Yes, but now you can build a bridge out of him. Try doing that with a
> typical corpse.
Bedevere: "Yes, but how do we know she's made of wood?"
Peasent: "Build a bridge out of her!"
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:05:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: DP9 Marketing
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Mon, 22 Dec 1997, David Fair wrote:
> On 12/20/97 6:15 PM, Brian Wong (rook@shell.infinex.com) Said:
>
> >Vaccuum tubes are often more reliable than transitors.
>
> Not to stray too far here, but: No way. Vacuum tubes get hot. Very hot.
> They fail at ridiculous rates if you don't keep they cool. They fail even
> if they are cool.
Hence the scenes in "Kishin Corp" where the mech blow tubes by the dozens.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 07:06:26 -0800
From: Wayne Wallace <atra@mindspring.com>
Organization: APA (American Powergamers Association)
Subject: Cost of Vulnerability vs. Damage Reduction
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Want some free defenses? How about cutting out 1/2 of the
damage your character would otherwise take, from about 25-50% of
damage
sources, for free?
Purchase 50% Damage Reduction, Resistant, for one or two
of the three types (Physical, Energy, Mental). Expensive at 30pts
a pop? Not a problem! Take two 15pt Vulnerabilities (each is a group
of distinctly different common attacks, at times 1.5 stun) and you've
paid for the cost of the Damage Reduction, and still have left a
group
of attacks you get to use it against! Assuming 20-23 defenses in a
12DC/60 AP campaign, the math works out as far as the damage.
Of course, the GM would have to agree that the two
Vulnerabilities shouldn't be combined into a single one, but any
resourceful member of this mailing list can craft the Vulnerabilities
correctly to defend the stance that they're worth all 30 points.
The most glaring part of this point shaving is that you could
not save nearly as many points by just taking a limitation on the
Damage Reduction "not versus [list of attack types]".
Just as a test, here's a list of things I would include as
"a group of Common attacks" worth the 15 points:
A) All firearms. (ie high-speed small projectiles made of lead or
similar material)
B) All -ASER weapons.(Anything Amplified by Stimulated Emission of
Radiation, like say Viper Energy Pistols, any LASER, MASER, etc.)
C) All Magical attacks, regardless of special effect.
D) A broad enough special effect. (Electricity/Lightning may not make
this list, even with the inclusion of Stun Guns, Tasers,
Electrically-
powered villains, etc. unless your campaign is different from the
norm.
Electricity *and* Fire, any maybe a bit more to satisfy the GM, might
do it. Of course, with Cold attacks, Bio-Energy, etc. etc. you've
still gained utility from the DR)
With enough work, the above list can be extended to the point
that even when you pick two entries from the list, you're still
getting
50% Resistant DR for free, on 50% or more of the list, due to the
infinite types of attacks used in the comic books.
Now, with a disad category cap of 50 points, per the character
creation rules, it's not quite free. Picking two things (usually
Physical & Energy) costs 60 points, a net cost of 10 points.
Alternately, throw the 60 active worth of DR (50% Phys &
Energy resistant) in a 30-point EC, giving you net-cost of 30 points,
and then you only need 30 points of Vulnerabilities to offset the
slot cost, less if your EC is through a focus or has other
limitations.
The EC, naturally, has already paid for itself on the other power
slots;
we're just getting you a 50% DR slot for free.
Now, in a campaign, an alert GM (like any reader of this list)
would be going over your character with a fine-toothed comb, for as
long as s/he wants to, and might actually discover this sneaky point-
shaving. "Gosh, Bob, your vulnerabilities pay for your DR EC slot,
and
you still have a fair range of attacks the DR works against!"
At a convention, however, the GM can only wield the fine-
toothed comb for 5-10 minutes tops, and this scam isn't one of the
obvious things like "-1/4 Limited Power: not while brushing teeth."
Heck, with enough resistant defense (and the fact that we
bought resistant DR for you) you could get 30 points from x1.5
STUN *and* BODY on firearms, and not really suffer. (Just make sure
your 20/20 defenses also have 20 pts of Damage Resistance, but that's
common practice anyways. Also Harden the Damage Resistance at least.)
So, in your (you the reader) opinion, what would be the most
common response from a GM upon seeing a character design with
Vulnerabilities and Damage Reduction? (Please post replies to the
list.)
A) Not notice, as the average GM doesn't think several levels
deep on noticing point shavings.
B) Notice, approve character while smiling, and arrange things
such that the PC is only ever attacked by damage sources he's
Vulnerable
to. (They are Very Common, after all)
C) Laugh maniacally, whip out the Red Pen of Grading, write
a 60-point [font size] "F" on the character sheet, and hand it back.
D) Throw over shoulder for player to pick up himself, and
say "Next!"
E) Use character sheet to give player "Death of a thousand
paper-cuts" by means of your Paper Tiger Kung-Fu training.
(When character sheet is emailed for a PBeM campaign, pull out
Anarchist's Cookbook, open to section on eMail Bombing.)
Wayne
--
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Join the American Powergamers' Association!
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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:12:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Talent: Intuition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sun, 21 Dec 1997, qts wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:17:00 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
> >
> >This seems to be the time to trot out all the house rules and ideas for new
> >powers, so here's another one of mine:
> >
> >
> >INTUITION
> >
> >This EGO-based talent is the ability to leap to a correct conclusion
> >without all the facts necessary to make a logical conclusion. It is similar
> >to the Skill Deduction, and should likewise be used sparingly. However,
> >this talent differs from deduction in both applicability and results. A
> >character may attempt an Intuition Roll to reach some understanding in the
> >absence of complete information. The conclusion he or she reaches, though,
> >may not answer the question the player had in mind. The conclusion will
> >also be less definite than the product of logical reasoning - a "hunch" -
> >and the Skill Roll should therefore generally be made by the GM. A failed
> >Intuition Roll usually means that the character has no strong feeling about
> >the situation, or it can mean an incorrect hunch.
> >
> >Cost: 3 points for a 9+(EGO/5) base roll, +2 points per +1 to the roll.
>
> Why not use Luck, Only For Making Lucky Guesses (-1/2 to -1)? I really
> don't see how you could justify your power as an improvable skill.
> qts
>
Actually, it's neither a power nor a skill, but rather a talent, which
should suggest it be treated with a certain amount of care when a player
decides to buy it(or buy it up.) Yes, it is an ambiguous sort of thing
that can't really be improved by training, but so is Danger Sense. And I'd
say some characters could improve their Intuition by learning to act on
their hunches - "Trust your feelings, Luke!"
Luck, Only for Making Lucky Guesses would be a decent way of doing this
power. I kind of like Intuition, though, for the greater range of results
and for its parallel form with Deduction. Plus, an official inclusion of
this talent would make it more likely for people to use in adapting
characters who really should have some form of the talent, like Fox
Mulder, Luke Skywalker, and many mystical heroes.
I first thought of this power when I was creating a simple-minded but
"fey" character for a Fantasy Hero game. He was an INT 5 oafish son of a
practical-minded merchant, but he had a rapport with the fairies and on
occasion showed a mystical insight into the world. I built this character
with Deduction, bought way up to compensate for his low INT, and declared
the SFX of his "Deduction" to in fact be intuition. It occurred to me,
though, that it would be nice to have a way to do this that wasn't
INT-based in the first place.
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Hero: (Flash)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 10:16:38 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On 12/21/97 11:49 PM, Bob Greenwade (bob.greenwade@klock.com) Said:
>>Right, because there's really only two levels of protection against
>>Flash: virtually useless (you're blind and helpless for at least
>>a phase) and virtually impervious (you're not).
>
> Being Flashed doesn't always mean you're blind. Sometimes it means
>you're deaf, or your radio won't work, or your mental powers are off
>kilter...
>
Flash definately needs work because, as it stands now, there is no
variation in level of effect, only in duration. I use the following in
all my games, and I think I originally got it from RedOctober.
The only thing I usually do is add that the target takes NND STUN equal
to the BOD rolled on the flash dice, since otherwise, a flash vs. smell
or hearing is just about useless (game-effects wise).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Flash (optional)
----------------
A character with this standard power can "flash" an opponent's senses.
A
flashed sense is temporarily disabled. Each 1d6 of flash costs 10
points,
regardless of how many senses the flash will affect. Flash
normally
affects a single sense, but can affect one additional sense for +5
points,
or an additional sense group for +10 points. Flash has a range of
5x
Active Points.
To use a flash, make a normal ranged attack roll against the target.
If
the roll is successful, roll the flash dice and count the number of
pips
showing. If the target has any PER modifiers for the affected sense,
the
number of dice rolled are modified by this. For every +1 PER, 1d6 is
added
to the total number of dice, and the inverse is true also. For every
-1
PER, 1d6 is removed from the number of dice rolled. And since you
can't
roll negative dice, 0d6 is the lowest the number can be modified.
Example 1: Vision Man is using his telescope (+3 sight PER
modifier)
to spy on Bright Guy, when BG lets loose with a 5d6 flash (vs.
sight
sense group). Because of the +3 modifier from the telescope, that
5d6
adds an extra 3d6, becoming an 8d6 flash. Let's hope V-Man knows
a
good optometrist.
Example 2: The Skunkster his Vision Man with his 4d6 flash stink
bomb
(pat. pend.). But since V-Man had a cold today, the GM said that
he
had a -4 to his smell PER rolls. So that 4d6 is reduced 1d6 for
each
-1 PER modifier. V-Man laughs as his clogged sinuses allow him
to
wade through the gas with no problems.
When you have your modified attack roll, check the effect table to see
how
the target fared.
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Modified Flash Effect Table |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Modified Total | |
| is Greater than | |
| or Equal to | Effect |
+-----------------+-----------------------------------------------+
| 1 | Target is at -2 PER rolls with this sense. |
| | If it is a targeting sense, OCV (non-ranged) |
| | and DCV are at -2, and OCV (ranged) is at -5. |
| | |
| 10 | Target is at -5 PER rolls with this sense. |
| | If it is a targeting sense, OCV (non-ranged) |
| | and DCV are at -5, and OCV (ranged) is at -9. |
| | |
| 20 | Target is at -9 PER rolls with this sense. |
| | If it is a targeting sense, OCV (non-ranged) |
| | and DCV are at -9, and OCV (ranged) is at |
| | -14. |
| | |
| 30 | Target has NO perception with this sense. If |
| | it is a targeting sense, OCV (non-ranged) and |
| | DCV are at -14, and OCV (ranged) is at -20. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Note: If the sense being flashed is a mental sense, all modifiers for
DCV
are applied to ECV also, and modifiers for OCV are not in effect.
However,
you still can't apply a flash to a non-existant sense.
Targets regain the use of the sense at a rate of REC per phase. If
the
target has Regeneration, they recover at their normal rate plus
their
Regeneration rate.
The target can prepare for the flash with an appropriate defensive
maneuver
(covering eyes for sight flash, holding nose vs. smell flash, etc.).
This
is a 1/2 phase action and characters can abort to the action. The GM
will
determine what affect this has on the effect table.
- FLASH COST: 10 Character Points for 1d6 of Flash; minimum cost of
20
points. +1 sense for +5 points, +1 sense group for +10 points.
The
maximum range is 5x Active Points.
Copyright 1992 by Thomas Revor
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
Subject: Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 10:26:58 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On 12/19/97 5:31 PM, GoldRushG (GoldRushG@aol.com) Said:
> Ultimate Supermage is not a reprint. And the last few ICE-produced books
>(Atlantis, et al) came out in 1995-1996.
I said that line in reference to the Ultimate Mentalist, not The Ultimate
SuperMage. I stand corrected on the dates of release for the ICE stuff.
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 07:41:06 -0800
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net>
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net
CC: flashbak@pacbell.net, champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
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GoldRushG wrote:
> You're on. I'm willing to be that you change your mind very, very
> soon.
> Don't ask. I can't talk about it. :D
As they say: Talk is cheap. The only way to prove anything is by
actions. But I'm actually hoping that you do prove me wrong. If you
don't, however, you can definately expect to hear about it. The people
on this list have been burned too many times by Hero making promises
they don't keep.
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:44:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Incomplete Character
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On 21 Dec 1997, Opal wrote:
> To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
> b >
> b > Rigid Armor is one of my problems with the Incomplete Rules as they
> b > currently stand - it makes it difficult to do robots who take STUN
> b > normally. The Internal Spaces power, though, is brilliant!
> b > ---
>
> I don't understand: a Robot who took STN normally, would have a
> Stun characteristic, and buy normal armor (or FF or whatever).
>
Hmmm... I may have forgotten my own objection to this. I know I had a real
problem with Rigid Armor, back when I first saw the Incomplete rules, but
I have to admit I haven't looked at them closely in the recent past and I
can't quite follow my own line of logic. I'll have to do some comparison
of the Incomplete rules and the BBB when I get home tonight. Maybe if I
can remember my objections clearly, you'll be able to remember your fix!
> About a year ago, I was discussing Rigid Armor, listening to
> some of the objections, and I thought of a vague idea to make
> it a bit more acceptable, but then I got pulled away from the
> list for a few days and lost it. Any recomendations for making
> RA better (less offensive)? (be brutal, remember I'm not happy
> with it either!)
I'll be working on it.
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 07:55:36 -0800
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net>
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
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GoldRushG wrote:
> << Can they get Gold Rush products? I have maybe seen 1 copy of each
> in one of
> the local stores when they were released, and that was it. No
> reorders. I
> suggest that you talk to a few of the distributors and see what is
> going on.
> >>
>
> It's on the retailers' end, not the distributors. Trust me. We ship
> orders
> to distributors often.
It's part of your job to let the retailers know. Not just collect
the money from the distributors. Champions has been idle for way too
long at the retailers end. Yes, the game has a strong following, but if
the stores won't order it, the point is moot.
> << I sympathize with your frustration fully. But you need to eliminate
> that
> perception. >>
>
> And we will, with your help.
I already started. Saturday afternoon, I walked into the local game
store and told them about you. They had ordered a few Gold Rush products
before, but never reordered, because they thought the rulebook was
unavailable. I had them call the distributor in front of me and ask.
Sure enough, the rulebook was there and available in the quantities you
said. but the retailer had to ask specifically about it. Otherwise, they
simply would have never known. And at that same time, they put in an
order for several rulebooks. Because this area has always been a center
of Champions activity and the game has always sold very well.
You need to get the word out As others have said, you need to
advertise the availability of the rulebook. People have to know it still
exists. Word of mouth will help. But it needs to come from your end too.
>
>
> Mark @ GRG
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:56:07 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Re[4]: So What Now?
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At 09:22 AM 12/22/97 -0800, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote:
> >Maybe I'm just getting cynical in my old age (he said tongue in
> >cheek, being 24), but frankly a hundred times as many "young gamers"
> >wouldn't seem like much of an improvement to me. RPGs strike me as
> >being an activity unsuited to most people gamer beneath college age;
> >roleplaying is a primarily mental activity, and it takes a certain
> >amount of time to develop the necessary "brain muscles". (It also
> >takes a certain amount of things called "money" and "free time",
> >which also happen to coincide more with college age ...)
>
> And when did you start gaming? I know that I, and virtually everyone
> that I game with, started playing D&D in high school or earlier. I
> have been gaming with my circle of friends since Junior year in high
> school, and was gaming with others as early as 6th grade. So I already
> had 5 or more years of gaming experience by the time I entered
> college.
To be honest, I started playing with RPGs (note careful phrasing) around
junior high. Now, ask me when I started *roleplaying* ...
> I understand your concern...the young gamers are the ones more likely
> to enjoy hack and slash dungeon crawls, or serious power gaming. But
> how many of us started at that level, and as the years wore on, got
> bored of this type of playing? Started role-playing, instead of
> roll-playing? Me for one.
At least in my experience, if I recruit a gamer at an older age, he spends
less time in the munchkin phase before pupating into a roleplayer. Like I
said, it's a matter of mental development. Maturity isn't just desirable
for a roleplayer, it's a necessity.
> Without the base of young gamers to refresh the blood, gaming will be
> a hobby populated by an ever older group of fans, whose numbers will
> dwindle due to things like jobs and wives {and husbands, for those
> mythical female gamers ;) }
Maybe I have a severe misunderstanding of the world, but I've been under the
assumption that there's roughly the same number of people turning 25 this
year as there is turning 15. I feel the concept of "young blood" is an
illusion -- what gaming needs is new players, period, and it doesn't make
too much difference what the entry point is (barring something radical like
"retirement age").
As I've said before when Steve Peterson was talking about the need to court
a younger market, I simply don't consider myself an OLDER gamer -- I think
of myself AS a "younger gamer" (and I probably will until I'm old enough to
hold office :]). Thus, when companies and other gamers start talking about
the "young blood", I feel a tad confused.
And in any case, I'd point out once more that I'm not all that worried about
the future of gaming decades down the road. Making an effort to get half of
America's schoolchildren gaming in all likelihood won't affect *my* gaming
environment much at all, and may actually worsen it (by increasing the ratio
of "real roleplayer" to "munchkin").
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: Flashes (was Re: 5th Edition Hero: So)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:06:27 -0500
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Opal said:
>there's really only two levels of protection against
>Flash: virtually useless (you're blind and helpless for at
>least a phase) and virtually impervious (you're not).
...which made me wonder what it would be like if there were partial
Flash Defense. A hero gets blinded by a bright light, and gets spots
before his eyes and can barely see.
This is off the top of my head, and completely untested...
Flash: Instead of flashes completely blinding an opponent for a number
of phases, how about it removes perception levels. 3 points for each -1
PER, like images. Now, a 30-point flash will give a -10 PER to a normal
opponent, and will heal back at +3 PER each phase (or maybe +1 per
segment).
Flash Defense: +2 PER for purposes of defending against flashes for each
point.
Example: The Flasher shoots an area effect 10 PER sight flash at Looker
and Blaster. Looker has a PER of 16-, and 4 points of sight flash def.
Blaster has a PER of 13- and no flash defense. Looker's PER has been
reduced to a 10-. Blaster's has been reduced to 3-. Both Looker and
Blaster must make PER rolls every phase until their vision is fully
restored.
Dave Mattingly
From: "Mann, Wade" <WMann@Rogue.CC.OR.US>
Subject: Unsubscribe
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 08:11:47 -0800
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Unsubscribe
From: Rick Ryker <RRYKER@ctginc.com>
Subject: Unsubscribe
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:12:47 -0500
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Well, I hate to have to say goodbye,
but I still have over 2000 unread messages from this list.
My current assignments prevent me from getting my mail
more frequently than once every other week
(when I come into the office),
and then I only have a few hours to read them.
I'll be back in about 6 months when my current assignment ends.
See ya,
RICK
Richard Thomas Ryker
Programmer Analyst
ComputerLand Technology Group, Inc.
A Microsoft Solutions Provider
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:39:41 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Redbow Antiques
Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
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GoldRushG wrote:
Someone wrote:
> << I don't mind your frustration over trying to sell to a market that >doesn't understand you're still there, but please don't blame it on the >market. The blame rests squarely on the shoulders of the original >source.>>
>
Mark @ GRG wrote:
> That's where we obviously disagree. I concede that we maintain a >certain level of responsibility to promote our products, but don't >presume to blame us of Hero games for other people spreading false >rumors. That's ridiculous.
>
I have to respectfully disagree with you Mark. I like what you are
trying to do and I even think you will be successful, but here you haved
it wrong. It is up to a company to ensure that they have advertisements
and are a force in the market not us players.
Players should not be telling store owners that Champions 4th is not
dead, Hero Games should be doing that.
IMO Hero Games saw the rumors and did nothing or little to stop their
spread (maybe to sell more Fusion, or that could just be me making an
X-file flashback). The rumors have flown around so long know with little
answer from Hero games..If you poke someone that is dead and they don't
move they must be dead...that know it is assumed the Champions is dead.
Hopefully you can fix this problem.
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:44:34 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Redbow Antiques
Subject: Re: Looking for Hero players & GMs
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GoldRushG wrote:
>
> << If you are looking for a group, START ONE! >>
>
> Hear, hear!
>
> To that end, I have been considering starting page on our web sitte for Hero gamers to find other Hero gamers. A "frind Hero GMs/players classified" listing of sorts. What do you folks think of that idea? Webmasters, would you create a link to such a page? Heck, we could also post listings of Hero games scheduled for various cons!
>
> Mark @ GRG
I think the "Classifieds" would be a great idea and would immedieately
put my name on the list. In fact it is Bobby Farris 573-685-6867. I live
in the Bootheel of Missouri near Cape Girardeau.
As far as just "starting a group", well I have one game store about 1
1/2 hours away and several very small little shops in the area. I have
put my name everywhere and have gotten nothing. Saying "just start one"
is like saying, Hey if you want a 5th edition of Champions just make
one.
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: Re: Super Character Concept Question: Rubpert's Shadow
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:44:41 -0500
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>"Rubpert's Shadow" is just that. There's this normal guy walking about
>only his shadow is a Super. The shadow is stuck with him though,
>where Rubpert goes, it goes.
>1. Rubpert is a 14- DNPC with a special effect that he's actually
ALWAYS there.
>2. Rubpert is bought as a follower
>3. Rubpert is a normal guy with duplication to give him the shadow.
>4. The shadow has duplication to give it Rubpert.
Actually, I've done similar things in the past (a costume that's alive,
etc.) and I think it would be better to design Rubpert+Shadow as a
single character.
Buy Rubpert's stats and skills, and buy all the shadow powers as
indirect. If the shadow stays awake after R is KO'ed, buy extra STUN,
only for shadow (-1/4). The special effect is that R is out, but the
shadow keeps going.
As for the shadow's powers:
Buy EB & TK defined as R's shadow punching another shadow, and the other
shadow's owner feels it.
Buy him images, only of shadows. X turns the alley, and sees the shadow
of five men. realizing that he's outnumbered, he turns back.
Buy him clairvoyance along his shadow (but this might be covered by the
stretching).
A limited arc force field, of the shadow positioning itself in front of
R.
Dave Mattingly
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:50:35 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified)
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Cost of Vulnerability vs. Damage Reduction
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>Want some free defenses? How about cutting out 1/2 of the
>damage your character would otherwise take, from about 25-50% of
>damage
>sources, for free?
>
> Purchase 50% Damage Reduction, Resistant, for one or two
>of the three types (Physical, Energy, Mental). Expensive at 30pts
>a pop? Not a problem! Take two 15pt Vulnerabilities (each is a group
>of distinctly different common attacks, at times 1.5 stun) and you've
>paid for the cost of the Damage Reduction, and still have left a
>group
You have an _odd_ definition of 'free'. Most campaigns put point ceilings on
both the number of points a PC is built on, as well as the number of
disadvantages you can take. So if you sink 30 points into Damage Reduction,
that's 30 fewer points you can spend on 'other' powers. In cases where the
GM allows a 'build to concept' level of play, your whole shenanegan is
completely unnecessary.
Let me put it this way: If I have a 250 point character (100 base + 150
disad), if I take what you suggest, I have only 220 points remaining for
other stuff, and 120 points of potential disadvantages left. This should in
no way be confused with 'free' (i.e. costs 0 CP).
>of attacks you get to use it against! Assuming 20-23 defenses in a
>12DC/60 AP campaign, the math works out as far as the damage.
Let's try! Assuming 20 DEF and 12 DC (42 STUN average), 50% DR and 1.5x STUN
Normal 'just DEF' guy:
42-20 = 22 STUN
50% Damage Resistance Man vs. an attack he's not vulnerable to:
(42-20)/2 = 11 STUN
50% Damage Resistance Man vs. an attack he's Vulnerable to:
[(42x1.5)-20]/2 = 21 STUN
So yes, it does look the same, BUT to get those 30 points of
Vulnerabilities, you have to either be vulnerable to a LOT of attacks. My
definition of 'Very Common' Vulnerabilities is things like: Impacts,
Physical KA, Energy KA, Energy Blasts, etc.
So, even if you take the construct you suggest, your Damage Resistance is
worthless something more than half the time (b/c you'd need at least two of
the above 'very common' Vulnerabilities to 'pay' for the DR). If I'm
Vulnerable to Impacts and Physical KA, I'd better _pray_ that every villian
I meet trys to grab and crush me, or my DR is completely useless.
> Just as a test, here's a list of things I would include as
>"a group of Common attacks" worth the 15 points:
>A) All firearms. (ie high-speed small projectiles made of lead or
>similar material)
Not by the BBB. In the example it says 'Physical Killing Attacks' for very
common. Firearms are a sub-group of these, so should be worth the 10 point
level, not the 15.
>B) All -ASER weapons.(Anything Amplified by Stimulated Emission of
>Radiation, like say Viper Energy Pistols, any LASER, MASER, etc.)
Energy Killing Attacks. Appropriate.
>C) All Magical attacks, regardless of special effect.
No. Unless you're in a magical campaign, you won't be facing magical attacks
terribly often. 'All Magic', to my mind, is worth the 10 point level, unless
you're in a Supermage focussed campaign.
>D) A broad enough special effect. (Electricity/Lightning may not make
>this list, even with the inclusion of Stun Guns, Tasers,
>Electrically-
>powered villains, etc. unless your campaign is different from the
>norm.
>Electricity *and* Fire, any maybe a bit more to satisfy the GM, might
>do it. Of course, with Cold attacks, Bio-Energy, etc. etc. you've
>still gained utility from the DR)
If you said 'Fire/Heat weapons', I'd be inclined to agree, but remember that
most 'real' energy weapons (i.e. not including stuff like cosmic bolts and
darkforce type stuff) do damage through the application of heat in one way
or another, including electricity (in combo with neural misfiring), most
radiative forms of energy (microwaves, solar power, lasers)
> With enough work, the above list can be extended to the point
>that even when you pick two entries from the list, you're still
>getting
>50% Resistant DR for free, on 50% or more of the list, due to the
>infinite types of attacks used in the comic books.
Excuse me, but half of the above list applies to differing classes of
attacks - i.e. half of them are physical, half are energy attacks. Picking
two of them would produce a net result of having your DR worthless in
roughly 90% of the cases.
> So, in your (you the reader) opinion, what would be the most
>common response from a GM upon seeing a character design with
>Vulnerabilities and Damage Reduction? (Please post replies to the
>list.)
>
> A) Not notice, as the average GM doesn't think several levels
>deep on noticing point shavings.
<snip>
Z.) Say "How does this fit your character concept?". Failure to make logical
sense in the character's concept is the ultimate yardstick.
Besides, you're NOT, NOT, NOT saving points! You're paying 30 points out of
your total 250 (or whatever) to get Damage Resistance. PLUS, you're limiting
you DR without getting points back for it! I could take dozens of other
disadvantages with minor effects to 'cover' the costs. As it stands, you're
getting maybe 10 points worth of your 30 point DR. IOW, you're LOSING points
by using this construct. You have fewer powers overall and a less effective
DR to boot. 30 points worth of Disads is not hard to find.
Look: Damage Resistance Man w/ Vulnerabilities:
50% DR plus 220 points in other stuff. DR works maybe half the time.
Damage Resistance Man w/o Vulnerabilities:
50% DR that works half the time (-1), plus 235 points in other stuff. Found
his Disadvantages in a small DNPC, small Hunted, a Reputation and a very
small Enraged.
I'll take door number two, thanks.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:22:14 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re[4]: So What Now?
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Vox wrote:
>Maybe I'm just getting cynical in my old age (he said tongue in
>cheek, being 24), but frankly a hundred times as many "young gamers"
>wouldn't seem like much of an improvement to me. RPGs strike me as
>being an activity unsuited to most people gamer beneath college age;
>roleplaying is a primarily mental activity, and it takes a certain
>amount of time to develop the necessary "brain muscles". (It also
>takes a certain amount of things called "money" and "free time",
>which also happen to coincide more with college age ...)
And when did you start gaming? I know that I, and virtually everyone
that I game with, started playing D&D in high school or earlier. I
have been gaming with my circle of friends since Junior year in high
school, and was gaming with others as early as 6th grade. So I already
had 5 or more years of gaming experience by the time I entered
college.
I understand your concern...the young gamers are the ones more likely
to enjoy hack and slash dungeon crawls, or serious power gaming. But
how many of us started at that level, and as the years wore on, got
bored of this type of playing? Started role-playing, instead of
roll-playing? Me for one.
Without the base of young gamers to refresh the blood, gaming will be
a hobby populated by an ever older group of fans, whose numbers will
dwindle due to things like jobs and wives {and husbands, for those
mythical female gamers ;) }
Richard
Subject: Re: Transform?
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 12:26:16 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 12/21/97 9:47 PM, Legionair (Legionair@aol.com) Said:
>Using the old "phobia" type character, I'm designing a mentalist that can
>"give" his targets various Psychological Disadvantages.
>
>I figure that the most logical way to design this power is with a Minor
>Transformation. (It's definately not a Cosmetic Transform, and doesn't seem
>to be as vital as Major Transform.) Making it an all or nothing
>retransformation is tempting, but the slow fade of the transform might be a
>bit more suitable. Obviously the attack should be based on ECV as well, for
>the mentalist angle.
Perhaps you should try this as a Mind Control, "You are deathly afraid of
X"
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:48:47 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Looking for Hero players & GMs
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> I think the "Classifieds" would be a great idea and would immedieately
>put my name on the list. In fact it is Bobby Farris 573-685-6867. I live
>in the Bootheel of Missouri near Cape Girardeau.
> As far as just "starting a group", well I have one game store about 1
>1/2 hours away and several very small little shops in the area. I have
>put my name everywhere and have gotten nothing. Saying "just start one"
>is like saying, Hey if you want a 5th edition of Champions just make
>one.
As I said, this applies to some and not to others. I live in St. Louis,
Missouri. I placed an ad up in the local comic store with 12 open slots for
a Champions game, within a week there were 18 slots filled (they drew them
in). I turned 6 of them down and 4 people showed for the game that never
signed up on the list in the first place they were hoping for no-shows or
drop outs. My point being, sometimes it is possible to say, "Just start
one." and do it, your point being, sometimes it isn't that easy. Part of it
is advertising the game the right way, saying I'm running a Champions game
doesn't always cut it. I believe I still have my flier that posted at the
store, it was nothing special, but my opening paragraph described the game
world versus the game mechanics. Then I went into point cost, maximums and
the likes for those who knew the game. For those who didn't I put in bold,
underline words NEW PLAYERS WELCOME! I am one who does practice what I
preach, so I can tell you it does work in some areas. I also made a point
of it in my first letter that sometimes it does not apply to you. I can't
believe though that in a college town you can not find players. I know for
a fact every college holds closet Champions players, I talk with them :)
There are two in Cape that are there on a regular basis playing Magic for
lack of anything better. I'm in constant contact with one of them and he
could probably round up a good size group, but since he is a player and last
I knew, owned no material, he can't just start a game, but he would gladly
join. I have to do something about correcting that owns no material stuff,
but you know college students, no money half the time, little money the
other half :) My final points here are, there are some people that can
easily set up and run a game in public view (I do), if they care about the
survival of the game then playing in public is great advertisment and it
should be done. If you can not, then by all means use the list and every
other means you can to get in a game, I know what it is like to have that
addiction gnawing at you in the pit of your stomach when you haven't heard
dice hit the table for weeks. I once went so low as to just bounce dice
around to ease the pain :) Seriously, by no means was I trying to insult or
offend anyone. I was stating that if you can "Just start a game" and you
are looking for one, then Start one. If you can't, you can't,
understandable, but get in games and encourage their growth then. You know
who you are, you know what you can and can not do. You can complain, we all
can, about a game dying but you really can't support your claim if you sit
there and wait for others, be they game companies or us, to do something
about it. Once again this isn't directed at the author I'm replying to, he
even stated he went around looking for others. This I believe. It doesn't
always happen. I'm just standing on my soap box again. Thanks for reading.
Take it easy and talk at you later.
Sparx
=====================================================
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:59:27 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Re[6]: So What Now?
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 07:09 PM 12/22/97 -0800, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote:
> So what you are saying is that you are only concerned with your
> personal gaming environment, and gaming as a whole is a far lesser
> concern for you? Seems to be a bit of a conflict with your sig...
It's not that "gaming as a whole" is a far lesser concern for me. It's just
that:
a) I'm less concerned with the far-future of gaming than I am
its near-future and/or present. I find it hard to worry about
whether my children will be roleplaying in 20-30 years when I'm
already worried about whether I'LL be roleplaying in 2-3 years.
Should a community collectively spend its money on public works
to support the infrastructure of future generations ... or on
food to feed its current populace? :/ Food first, THEN future.
b) If gaming changes radically to attract this hypothetical "new
blood", than it may cease to be something I consider "good". Ergo,
the "good men" mentioned in my .sig would be responsible for
STOPPING these changes, not causing them. :]
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:15:04 EST
Subject: Re: An odd suplement
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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We've considered doing some supplements in a format similar to what you've
described.
<< The downside is that you're stcuk with something as thin and fragile
as a comic book. >>
There are varying qualities/thickness of paper, including cover stocks. A
book could be produced the size of a comic (7.5x9" ?) yet still retain the
standard 50# interior pages and a 10 point stock cover, just like "full sized"
RPG books on the market now.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:15:05 EST
Subject: Re: Looking for Hero players & GMs
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Well, I imagine as soon as Goldrush does a Fuzion book for New Millenium
we'll see this one. But before that I doubt I'd see much more than token
mentions.>>
Your negativity is really annoying.
As it happens, there is a link to our web page from the Hero Games page.
Would you prefer a huge flashing marquee on the top of the Hero Games web
page? :D
Mark @ GRG
Subject: Re: Vehicle Help Part II
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 14:26:47 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 12/21/97 5:49 PM, Michael Surbrook (susano@access.digex.net) Said:
>
>Does onyone have any idea of the performance characteristics for the V-22
>Osprey tiltwing? Size, mass, speed, that sort of thing.
Here, Try this (stolen from <http://www.boeing.com/rotorcraft/military/v22/>):
V-22 Osprey
The V-22 Osprey is the first aircraft designed from the ground up to
meet the needs of all four U.S. armed services. The aircraft can
transport Marine Corps assault troops and cargo using its medium lift
and vertical takeoff and landing capabilities. It meets U.S. Navy
requirements for combat search and rescue, fleet logistics support, and
special warfare support.
The V-22 is a tiltrotor aircraft, taking off and landing like a
helicopter, but, once airborne, its blades can be rotated to convert the
aircraft to a turboprop airplane capable of high-speed, high-altitude
flight.
It can carry 24 combat troops, or up to 20,000 pounds of internal or
external cargo, at twice the speed of a helicopter. It includes
cross-coupled transmissions so either engine can power the rotors if one
engine fails.
The rotors can fold and the wing rotate so the aircraft can be stored
aboard an aircraft carrier.
Boeing is responsible for the fuselage and all subsystems, digital
avionics, and fly-by-wire flight-control systems. Boeing partner Bell
Helicopters is responsible for the wing, transmissions, empennage, rotor
systems, and engine installation.
Powerplant:
Two Allison T406-AD-400 engines.
Rotor system:
Three blades per hub (two hubs). Graphite/fiberglass construction.
Top speed: 661.90 ft/s.
Automatic powered folding blades.
Performance:
Max speed: SL, 275 kn.
Vert rate of climb: SL, 1,090 ft/min.
Max rate of climb: SL, 2,320 ft/min.
Service ceiling: 26,000 ft.
Crew:
Cockpit-crew: 2
Cabin-troop seats/litters: 24/12
Weights:
Takeoff, vertical max: 47,500 lbs.
Empty: 33,140 lbs.
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
Subject: Re: Vehicle Help Part II
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 14:56:42 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On 12/21/97 10:35 PM, Bob Greenwade (bob.greenwade@klock.com) Said:
> I'd like to get that information not only for the V-22, but for any
>other real-world aircraft as well. And boats, motorcycles, and whatever.
> Or, if anyone has built stats for such vehicles, that would be even
>better.
> Just send the info directly to me (including corporate web page URLs).
>:-]
I really only know military aircraft, but since most of the manufacturers
are the same, try this list on for size:
1. Boeing Helicopters (the Apache, Chinooks & Osprey)
http://www.boeing.com/rotorcraft
2. Boeing Military (B2, B1, C17, F15, F/A18, C37, KC-135, F22 & the JSF)
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/
3. Northrup-Grumman Military Aircraft (F/A-18, B2, JSF, all as a sub to
Boeing)
http://www.northgrum.com/masd/index.html
4. Sikorsky Rotorcraft (SeaHawk, Comanche, BlackHawk)
http://www.sikorsky.com/programs/index.html
5. USAFE (A-10, F15, C21, C130, F16)
http://www.usafe.af.mil/fact.htm
(US Air Forces in Europe, great site BTW)
6. US Air Force (you name it)
http://www.af.mil:80/news/indexpages/fs_index.html
HTH, Dave
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:16:43 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for Hero players & GMs
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:15 PM 12/22/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< Well, I imagine as soon as Goldrush does a Fuzion book for New Millenium
>we'll see this one. But before that I doubt I'd see much more than token
>mentions.>>
>
> Your negativity is really annoying.
>
> As it happens, there is a link to our web page from the Hero Games page.
>Would you prefer a huge flashing marquee on the top of the Hero Games web
>page? :D
One at the bottom would do just fine. :-]
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Avengers (slightly off-topic)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:31:41 -0500 (EST)
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Well, Avengers #1 came out, and the lineup for the
new team still hasn't been announced. Here's my
prediction:
Captain America
Iron Man
Thor
Hawkeye
Scarlet Witch
Giant Man
Wasp
Quicksilver
Any other predictions?
-Eric
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 22 Dec 1997 16:46:56 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "DF" == David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> writes:
DF> On 12/20/97 11:10 AM, Stainless Steel Rat (ratinox@peorth.gweep.net) Said:
>> Yeah, because turning a dragon into a frog is going to be really useful to
>> the now ex-dragon.
DF> But you previously said that it doesn't matter who the transform is
DF> useful to...
Let me introduce you to a friend of mine, named "sarcasm".
F> If you turn your enemy to stone, that has just become useful to you,
F> since the enemy can't attack you anymore.
"Useful" = "costs character points".
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
\ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: New Limitation: Puncture
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 22 Dec 1997 16:51:50 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
F> According to the rules, I should be able to, _with a single round_
F> from a .44 Magnum, blow a hole in the side of my house considerably
F> larger than the side of my house.
But according to the *SPECIAL EFFECTS* you cannot.
[...]
F> Please show me the added utility of a firearm that makes up for it's
F> inability to create holes big enough to blow the front off of my
F> house, and instead create small, round holes, no larger than my fist.
Go read "Appleseed" book 2 for a very slick example. Or watch a western.
As mentioned previously, firearms have a precision that is not available to
"generic" blasts that can create holes in walls.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and
\ kept under refrigeration.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Transform?
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 22 Dec 1997 16:53:54 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "L" == Legionair <Legionair@aol.com> writes:
L> I figure that the most logical way to design this power is with a Minor
L> Transformation.
How about using Mind Control instead.
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\
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:38:35 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Vehicle Help Part II
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:56 PM 12/22/97 -0500, David Fair wrote:
>On 12/21/97 10:35 PM, Bob Greenwade (bob.greenwade@klock.com) Said:
>
>> I'd like to get that information not only for the V-22, but for any
>>other real-world aircraft as well. And boats, motorcycles, and whatever.
>> Or, if anyone has built stats for such vehicles, that would be even
>>better.
>> Just send the info directly to me (including corporate web page URLs).
>>:-]
>
>I really only know military aircraft, but since most of the manufacturers
>are the same, try this list on for size:
The [snipped] list should, at the very least, provide a *very* good
start! Thanks many times over, David!!! :-]
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:39:46 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: New Limitation: Puncture
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 04:51 PM 12/22/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
>F> According to the rules, I should be able to, _with a single round_
>F> from a .44 Magnum, blow a hole in the side of my house considerably
>F> larger than the side of my house.
>
>But according to the *SPECIAL EFFECTS* you cannot.
And thereby the call for a Limitation.
>F> Please show me the added utility of a firearm that makes up for it's
>F> inability to create holes big enough to blow the front off of my
>F> house, and instead create small, round holes, no larger than my fist.
>
>Go read "Appleseed" book 2 for a very slick example. Or watch a western.
>
>As mentioned previously, firearms have a precision that is not available to
>"generic" blasts that can create holes in walls.
That "precision" is usually bought separately, as a +1 or +2 to OCV, or
up to +4 to Range Modifiers, and not just given arbitrarily.
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:02:38 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Avengers (slightly off-topic)
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At 03:31 PM 12/22/97 -0500, Eric Burns wrote:
>Well, Avengers #1 came out, and the lineup for the
>new team still hasn't been announced. Here's my
>prediction:
>
Didn't Avengers#1 come out in 1963?
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Looking for Hero players & GMs
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:03:19 -0800
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-----Original Message-----
From: Steven J. Owens <puff@netcom.com>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Monday, December 22, 1997 2:58 AM
Subject: Re: Looking for Hero players & GMs
<snip>
> Here're a couple suggestions for the design:
>
>1) Have each player/group put in a physical address including zip
>code, contact info, etc. Players seeking a game or GMs seeking
>players can then enter their zip code and find the nearest players.
>
> You should be able to find a decent map database of zip codes &
>coordinates to build this on. If nothing else, you can group entries
>by the first couple digits of their zip codes, and perhaps have a
link
>with each entry that sends the user to yahoo maps or mapquest or some
>similar service, so they can see how close that address is to their
>location.
>
> The ideal, of course, would be to have a both a free-form search
>utility (keywords, etc) and a way for the player to specify their
>location and how far they're willing to travel, and get a listing of
>entries within that range.
NO, NO, NO. DO NOT PUBLISH PEOPLE'S ADDRESSES ON THE WEB. Do not put
up more than zip codes, please. It is highly inadvisable to put your
address on a list on the web. Put out email addresses and zip codes,
but no more.
If you do use zip codes, remember to group zip codes together. Around
here, most towns have more than one.
>2) Each time a user puts an entry in, they include an e-mail contact.
>Each entry goes on hold after a set period of time. The entry is
>removed from the general listings, but kept. The proper URL to renew
>the entry is e-mailed to the contact address, so the player doesn't
>have to retype all of the info. If the entry isn't renewed, it's
>eventually deleted (say, each entry is live for two months and then
>on hold for two months).
>
> You could implement this in a number of different ways, probably
>using a simple flat-text database. If you need some assistance, drop
>me a line.
That works. Just don't include physical addresses.
Filksinger
From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams)
Date: 22 Dec 97 16:13:00 -0800
Subject: Re: Interpol
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Sort of a x-men go legite.
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:16:47 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Revised Hand Attack
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 06:52 PM 12/21/97 -0800, Opal wrote:
> > From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
> > >>4d HAp, 0 END, OAF, Beam: always +1 OCV & +3d -1/4,
> > >>Apts 30, Rpts 13
> > >>
> > >So, you would give an *additional* point break to the OCV level? As
> > >stands now, if I want a +1 OCV w/ a weapon it would cost 5 points,
> > >with a -1 OAF lim. You're giving it a -1 1/4 for no reason (IMO)...
> > >
> >
> >
> > I must admit I don't like the ocv bonus concept. .. . too
> > cheap. . .
> > ---
>
>CHEAP?? An OCV level is 2 pts. If you want to focus a level
>it must be 5pts.... Getting the + 1 OCV by using a die of
>HA costs 5 pts, and costs END... how is that cheaper?
>
>Do you have any objections to spreading an EB?
no, but it was a minor point, ferget it . .i meant the option. . .
i always played eb spread as pretty harsh on the terrain,
fer instance. .
>
>
>___
> * OFFLINE 1.58
>
From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams)
Date: 22 Dec 97 16:18:46 -0800
Subject: International Composite Team: Favorite Characters
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Maybe people can provide their favorite characters and we can make a
International Super Security Team/Enforcers or like.
Ideas? Or it is just the caffeine.
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:27:26 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Building A Super Hero World
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:48 PM 12/21/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote:
> Actually, I was thinking on almost the reverse logic.
>The larger nations with big militaries and Atomic power saw that any
>small crackpot nation with a team of super soilders could be a serious threat.
>So to prevent this they outlawed Super Soilders. What I need though is the
>shiny 'polite' reason handed to the public.
>
Welll, it's obvious:
"We do not consider it fair to allow the already mighty
super-powers to have paranormal agents, further overshadowing our
weaker neibours"
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:39:42 -0800
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On Monday, December 22, 1997 6:03 AM, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>15 VPP(5), Cosmic (+2)
>>17 1d6 Absorption, +10 max., feeds to maximum Absorption and VPP,
>>fade 5/day (+1 1/2), only vs electricity (-1/2)
>>
>>Since wall sockets do damage, he could charge up quickly with this
>>power to an absolutely enormous power level.
>
>Not really. Without the +2 advantage (all powers of a given SFX), he
>shouldn't be able to absorb to his VPP. Besides, we all know that
absorbing
>to your absorption capacity is abusive, neh? :-)
You don't need the +2 Advantage. You can Transfer to as many powers as
you want at one time. You could even Transfer points to every power
you have, simultaneously.
With the +2 Advantage, all powers get all of the points Transferred.
Thus, if you Transfer 10 pts, and you have ten powers that it feeds
to, then normally each power gets 1 pt, but with the Advantage, they
all get 10.
Since, using my method, he would only get 10 pts, no matter how many
powers you create, it doesn't need the advantage.
As for the abusive part, NO DUH! This is, beyond a doubt, the most
abusive construct I have ever created. But it is legal.:)
Note: He should buy some defenses, so he doesn't severely injure
himself trying to get enough power to create a FF that stops
electricity.
Filksinger
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 19:25:37 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Subject: I'm back
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
O.K.
Got net access over break and can telnet back to the school
account. What'd I miss since Thursday?
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:35:05 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Super Hero theme songs (was Re: Building ...)
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At 04:22 AM 12/22/97 -0700, Curtis Gibson wrote:
>Side note- the Watchtower has had thier base on the moon for 6 years,
>and alongs comes the new JLA with the base named watchtower on the
>moon.... GRRR. 8)
>
that's nothing. A few years ago, I wrote up a friendly blob-alien called
"mr flubby". . . .
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:40:55 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: GRG: Possible Sourcebooks?
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At 05:11 AM 12/22/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 09:02 PM 12/21/97 -0500, Jamie Rosen wrote:
>>Well, with the interest you expressed in a Canadian sourcebook, and some
>>of the discussion of an Aussie one, do you think GRG would be able to do a
>>series of non-US Champions sourcebooks (Canada, Australia, England, etc.)
>
> Absolutely.
> If possible, I'd recommend going the same route Hero did, in using
>authors actually living in the respective countries, at least for the three
>books you mention. (And cover the whole UK, not just England.)
> A Japanese sourcebook would be a good idea too.
>
>
>
yay! I live in australia! okay everyone, i'm off to work on my rought draft. Expect
word in 8 to 10 hours.
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:44:57 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: International Composite Team: Favorite Characters
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At 04:18 PM 12/22/97 -0800, Michael Adams wrote:
>Maybe people can provide their favorite characters and we can make a
>International Super Security Team/Enforcers or like.
>
>Ideas? Or it is just the caffeine.
>
>
this sounds like aplan, but i'm a bit busy constructing
a cybernetic asian triad. . .
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: New Limitation: Puncture
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:06:48 -0800
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On Monday, December 22, 1997 1:12 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
>F> According to the rules, I should be able to, _with a single round_
>F> from a .44 Magnum, blow a hole in the side of my house
considerably
>F> larger than the side of my house.
>
>But according to the *SPECIAL EFFECTS* you cannot.
I can make that argument for _any_ limitation. You don't tell a
character he can only shoot six bullets with his revolver, and call it
special effects. You give him a Limitation.
>[...]
>
>F> Please show me the added utility of a firearm that makes up for
it's
>F> inability to create holes big enough to blow the front off of my
>F> house, and instead create small, round holes, no larger than my
fist.
>
>Go read "Appleseed" book 2 for a very slick example. Or watch a
western.
>
>As mentioned previously, firearms have a precision that is not
available to
>"generic" blasts that can create holes in walls.
>
I know many examples. None of them are equal to the ability to blow
large, even enormous hole in the side of a building. This is
especially true considering what would happen in the real world if you
tried to shoot most switches. You cannot turn down the power level of
a firearm (Yet another reason that guns deserve a "Firearm"
Limitation.")
Filksinger
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 21:59:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Avengers (slightly off-topic)
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On Mon, 22 Dec 1997, Lizard wrote:
> At 03:31 PM 12/22/97 -0500, Eric Burns wrote:
> >Well, Avengers #1 came out, and the lineup for the
> >new team still hasn't been announced. Here's my
> >prediction:
> >
> Didn't Avengers#1 come out in 1963?
>
My prediction is that Captain America will join.
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 19:09:10 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re[6]: So What Now?
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Vox wrote:
>To be honest, I started playing with RPGs (note careful phrasing)
>around junior high. Now, ask me when I started *roleplaying* ...
And how many people that you role-play with have been playing since
high school? It has been my experience that many more people continue
playing through college and then after, than who pick up gaming cold
at an adult age. In fact, of the close to 20 people whom I have gamed
regularly with during and after college, I can only think of one or
two who did not have extensive history playing, and those were
"girlfriend gamers" (women who are coerced into gaming by their
significant others, not always because they want to). [Note: I have
yet to see a "boyfriend gamer", but I'm sure they exist.]
Of these 20 people, a few don't game anymore. One is getting married,
and had to take another job...another is going to Med school. Another
was a girlfriend who quit gaming after she ended her relationship.
Another is dead. So my gaming circle is shrinking.
>At least in my experience, if I recruit a gamer at an older age, he
>spends less time in the munchkin phase before pupating into a
>roleplayer. Like I said, it's a matter of mental development.
>Maturity isn't just desirable for a roleplayer, it's a necessity.
I guess I'm just not doing my job recruiting, because I haven't had
any people new to gaming join my games. Maybe I just don't hang around
the right people.
>Maybe I have a severe misunderstanding of the world, but I've been
>under the assumption that there's roughly the same number of people
>turning 25 this year as there is turning 15. I feel the concept of
>"young blood" is an illusion -- what gaming needs is new players,
>period, and it doesn't make too much difference what the entry point
>is (barring something radical like "retirement age").
I agree with you here. Gaming does need new players. But my point is
this: Almost everyone I have ever gamed with started gaming in their
early to mid teens. So we either need to recruit people at that
seemingly influential age, or we find some way of recruiting people at
older ages. Or we do both. Unfortunately, gaming isn't as flashy as
other things designed to catch the attention of today's youth. And
recruiting older people has been, IMHO, difficult to do.
>As I've said before when Steve Peterson was talking about the need to
>court a younger market, I simply don't consider myself an OLDER gamer
>-- I think of myself AS a "younger gamer" (and I probably will until
>I'm old enough to hold office :]). Thus, when companies and other
>gamers start talking about the "young blood", I feel a tad confused.
OK, how about "established gamer" vs. "novice gamer"? Does that make
you feel better? You've been doing this for over ten years...you
should have at least a 13- in Gaming by now ;)
>And in any case, I'd point out once more that I'm not all that
>worried about the future of gaming decades down the road. Making an
>effort to get half of America's schoolchildren gaming in all
>likelihood won't affect *my* gaming environment much at all, and may
>actually worsen it (by increasing the ratio of "real role-player" to
>"munchkin").
So what you are saying is that you are only concerned with your
personal gaming environment, and gaming as a whole is a far lesser
concern for you? Seems to be a bit of a conflict with your sig...
>"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
>do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
Richard
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Regeneration of Limbs, and Body Parts
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 19:25:13 -0800
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On Monday, December 22, 1997 3:37 PM, Vance Scott wrote:
<snip>
Insurance may cost, but it should also provide benefit. I don't
see any benefit to consistantly rolling 3 on a d6, particularly
when the results of rolling a 1 are hardly catastrophic. Only a fool
would buy insurance at your prices. Frankly, I'm not buying stubbed
toe insurance.
If you're determined that dice rolls be eliminated from an aid
based power that simulates regeneration than 3.5 is the number for a
+0 Limitation/Advantage.
<snip>
The official ruling, placed on devices in several books, and once
given as an official alternate to dice, is to give all dice an
automatic 3, for free. I don't see an advantage to rolling threes
automatically, nor a limitation. Sometimes it is best for special
effects, is all.
Filksinger
From: "Jeff O'Connor" <jtoc@msn.com>
Subject: The Question Still Stands
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:14:53 -0700
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<MASSIVE SNIP>
Yes, yes - if you want something done...
The question still stands - are there any groups in or near Phoenix?
Thank You.
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 22 Dec 97 21:27:00 -0800
Subject: Re: New Limitation: Punc
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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f > Please show me the added utility of a firearm that makes up for it's
f > inability to create holes big enough to blow the front off of my
f > house, and instead create small, round holes, no larger than my fist.
The bullet continues on to do damage to things beyond - useful when
you're firing at a target behind cover....
f > You want to claim that's a flaw in the rules? I agree. Want to claim
f > that's _minor_? Give me a break.
f >
f > Filksinger
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 22 Dec 97 21:37:02 -0800
Subject: Re: Inhibit Characterist
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b > >It probably should be constant... but you can always add Uncontrolled
b > >to an AE version to get an oil slick that sticks around for
b > >a defined period.
b >
b > The problem with that solution is, oil slicks don't stick around
b > pre-defined period. They just stick around, until someone cleans them
b > up.
Ummm... an oil slick will dissipate eventually... I have no idea how
long - it could sink into soil reasonably quickly.... And of course,
some characters might have other things they want to represent with
the power that will last defined periods.
Anyway, Uncontrolled powers have to have a reasonable way of turning
them off, which could be cleaning up the oil slick (or just hitting
it with an apropriate area power....).
b > The proposed new Advantage to allow a Power to cost END only for
b > startup
b > would be appropriate here. This will create the effect normally, but
b > the
b > effect will stay around until it's reversed, like Entangle or
b > Transform.
END only at startup would be fine... but it should still be bought
to Uncontrolled... that also provides the mechanic for removing it...
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 22 Dec 97 22:09:04 -0800
Subject: Re: Revised Hand Attack
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> >CHEAP?? An OCV level is 2 pts. If you want to focus a level
> >it must be 5pts.... Getting the + 1 OCV by using a die of
> >HA costs 5 pts, and costs END... how is that cheaper?
> >
> >Do you have any objections to spreading an EB?
>
> no, but it was a minor point, ferget it . .i meant the option. . .
> i always played eb spread as pretty harsh on the terrain,
> fer instance. .
>
Ohhh... OK. I see what you mean, not 'cheap' in character
points, but 'cheap' as in no downside to switching between
damage and OCV.... I honestly can't think of one - except
along the same vien - that it might represent a 'wild swing'
or a less wieldy weapon. Hmmm.... I guess the only thing
I can say in defense is that HA really needs some extra
combat flexibility to give it the utility of a 5 Apt/d
attack....
I would be very open to alternatives. :)
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:31:04 EST
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
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In a message dated 97-12-22 17:07:33 EST, you write:
<< F> If you turn your enemy to stone, that has just become useful to you,
F> since the enemy can't attack you anymore.
"Useful" = "costs character points". >>
That is most definitely an interpretation on your part, otherwise, as I've
said before, their examples higher up in the Transform text would become
invalid. Did you get the post from GRG saying he (Mark) thought adding points
was valid? I thought I mailed it to you.
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:41:51 EST
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
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In a message dated 97-12-22 02:52:39 EST, you write:
<< >So you're using Transform to change a 25 point character into a 100
point
>character and you're *not* increasing the point total????? Remember,
we're
>talking about changing a normal into an effective vampire with
Transform.
Well, it depends upon how you look at it. I said it gave a vampire for
zero points, but "gave" and "zero points" are unclear and debatable
terms.
I think I may have mislead you a little. What started this part of the thread
was a statement by another list member that Transform could alter the target
character, but not add points to the total of the character. In other words,
if the target had 250 points, you could change whatever
powers/characters/skills/etc around, but the end result had to stay at or
under 250 points. This seemed wrong to me, since there are several genre uses
of Transforms where normal humans are changed into much more powerful
beings... vampires being one. And in published Champions characters (Stalker
in HSR, for one), it is indeed a stand-alone Transform that is used to change
people into vampires.
That being the basis, my point was that it would be impossible to use
Transform on a 25 point normal and have the resulting Transformed vampire come
out 25 points or less... an effective vampire, anyway. And your example of a
transformed bare bones vampire ended up costing 100 points, which is 75 points
over the 25 point normal. So, unless I'm missing something, it does not
depend upon how you look at it... by using Transform, you have added 75 points
to the 25 point character. Which goes even further to show that your bare-
bones vampire is still a three times increase, point wise. Sorry if I hadn't
given you enough information earlier.
There are several arguments that could be made, but I'll admit
they are all stretching things a bit. However, virtually all arguments
on the subject allow for adding points, so long as they are balanced
by Disadvantages. I do that.
Yes, I agree with you, I think that adding points is very allowable. It was
not allowed in Champs III, but the restriction was taken out in Champs IV.
Mark at GRG basically said it should be allowed, as long as it is within
reasons. Which is why there is a Stop sign by Transform.
>Also, you can't give someone a power on their character sheet without
paying
>points for it... there's mininum costs to deal with. If you don't
have the
>minimum costs, you don't have the power, and no amount of Transfer
will
>increase it to usable levels, since it doesn't exist.
Hmm. There seems to be some disagreement on this point. Some people
think that you should be able to do such a thing, but many think that
it should be at half power.
I have to disagree with you here. Under Adjustment Powers, it states that
'These Powers can adjust the Powers and Characteristics of a character or his
target. The Powers work by adding to, or subtracting from, the number of
Character points in a Power or in a Characteristic.' To me, that says that
the Power in question already needs to be on the character sheet. You open a
very dangerous Pandora's box if you say that that would include "zero point
Powers", meaning that every Power in the book is 'conceivably' on any
character sheet, just at zero points, but ready to have points Aided to them.
Because if you say a character 'has' any Power for the purpose of increasing
that zero point Power with an adjustment power, than it would seem you also
would have to turn around and say that same character 'has' a Power that would
be the defense of an NND attack, even though he didn't have it written down on
his character sheet. If you're bypassing minimun point costs to allow Aid to
essentially give a power to a character, turn-about's fair play. Of course
this would mean a large number of NND's would cease to work.
>I do like your idea though, about the powers being baseline weak and
dependent
>on blood intake, but IMHO, there are many more powers a vampire
should have
>that need to be included in your base set list... like a HKA for the
fangs,
>for instance... fangs aren't just used for the 'transfer' of the
power, they
>also make handy weapons, and shouldn't be dependent upon how much
blood the
>vampire has drunk.
Well, actually, I think a HKA is a rotten way to represent fangs. When
was the last time you saw a vampire bite down a door; bite someone's
arm off, bite themselves free from chains, or any use of the fangs
except creating small punctures to drain blood? If a vampire's fangs
are useful only for making tiny punctures to allow the sucking of
blood, then a Transfer with a slow return isn't unreasonable. You
still lose BODY either way. Additionally, after killing the first
victim, my vampire could have those other powers.
Well, I'd still buy a HKA, but you're right, it should be limited to consider
your examples. To me, if you're going to give a tiger a HKA for his fangs, a
vampire should get it too. Just because a vampire is more refined than a
tiger, doesn't mean he can't, in a pinch, use his fangs to rip or tear into
flesh just like his feline friend. But that could also depend upon the style
of the fangs we're talking about.
You could add some things to my vampire. For example, you could give
him more points by using the Transform to reduce all abilities already
existing to a minimum, and turn them into points. Then, claim that the
vampire awakens in a dazed, animal state, and only "clears his mind"
with the drinking of blood. If you want to create usable vampires,
then you protect them until they are strong enough to hunt on their
own.
Another cool idea, though to me, I'd rather see a weakened vampire (that is, a
mature vampire low on blood) still be a little tougher than a normal human,
and then the blood would increase his strength and abilities to its even more
superior level. Maybe a 0 point Limitation on the base Transform increases
(since it only happens once), and then the Aid from the blood intake would
carry the vampire to the higher levels?
However, I have a solution to the problem of minimum costs. Instead of
a +3 STR, try this:
3 VPP, 2 pt pool, Only for Vampiric powers (-1/2)
The Transfer to Vampiric Powers feeds directly to the pool.
Now you have the necessary minimum in everything.:) (Please don't tell
me this is a rotten idea, I already know that. It's intended to be
humorous, though it could be useful for a character who has enormous
versatility, but is an incredible wimp unless fed power.)
Hmmm.
:)
Socket Man
Socket Man was granted the power to create incredibly versatile cosmic
effects by aliens, but the aliens left before they could give him a
power source. Since he has the ability to accept the power the power
source would have given him, he solves this problem by plugging
himself into a wall socket.
15 VPP(5), Cosmic (+2)
17 1d6 Absorption, +10 max., feeds to maximum Absorption and VPP,
fade 5/day (+1 1/2), only vs electricity (-1/2)
Since wall sockets do damage, he could charge up quickly with this
power to an absolutely enormous power level.
Make him a bit of a wimp, and he could be bought as a Normal.:)
Filksinger
I tried something like this once... don't you hate the point of diminishing
returns that it reaches fairly quickly? Bummer, eh?
'Lynx
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com>
Subject: Weapons & Armor (was Ninjato)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:42:11 -0500
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Michael Surbrook's response to a RE: Ninjato:
(weapon discussion snipped)
LC>> I've read that part of the efficacy of the axe was its
percussive effect as well as its cutting power. Where the heavy axe
did not cleave through mail, its mass enabled it to crush the flesh
underneath. As a matter of personal taste, I prefer to reserve the
AP Advantage for the beaked war hammer and other weapons with a
pick-like fluke capable of punching square holes through plate. It
keeps those weapons unique in the armory. I wouldn't rule out axes
of quality as having AP potential, though. <<
MS> And crushing the flesh underneath means doing Body damage through
the armor - i.e. AP attacks. We treated picks, war hammers and axes
the same way, since they all had the same end result, doing damage
even through thick armor. <
I'm coming around to your way of thinking. The weakness with
treating a weapon's percussive power as a STUN multiple, as Fantasy
Hero does for hammers and flails, is that STUN damage isn't true
physical damage to flesh and bone that takes days or weeks to heal.
The distinction often doesn't count so much on the battlefield, where
a knight knocked unconscious can die in so many ways, from being
trampled by horses to a knife thrust by a lowly foot soldier. In a
tourney or dungeon crawl, the distinction can prove critical.
My knee-jerk reaction to the phrase "armor piercing" is an attack
that punches or cuts through armor like an antitank round. That's an
error. A fine distinction could be made between an AP attack that
cleaves armor, leaving it rent and so having a lesser protective
value for that body location, and a percussive attack that transfers
its energy through the armor to the flesh beneath without grievous
damage to the armor.
With some chopping weapons, I think that halving the effectiveness of
heavy plate goes a bit too far, while halving the effectiveness of
lighter armors not far enough. For that reason, I'm considering
reviving the Piercing rule from the Champions III supplement, with
the limitation that the Piercing effect works vs. rD only, not vs. a
character's normal PD. Hence, heavy plate's protection vale is
reduced somewhat against a battleaxe with a Piercing effect, while
light armor means nothing to that axe.
One of the great strengths--yet complexities--of the HERO System is
that it gives the GM a surfeit of choices for building weapons. How
many other game systems give us so many options to thrash over in a
debate?
(armor material snipped)
MS> Okay, I see. I had a bit of a go-around with some one a while
back about the use of jousting and 'bullet proof' armor. I would
like to point out, however, that Maximilian plate is considered some
of the finest armor ever made, and it is 'heavily fluted', although
the fluting has a purpose, unlike some suits I have seen (which, as
you say, were meant for parades). Ever seen the suit made to look
like a Landesknecht's slashed-and-puffed dress? <
Yes, I have. It's hard to look at photos of such armor without
chuckling.
Incidentally, have you ever tried any guideline to reflect the heat
prostration problem of wearing heavy armor, aside from the standard
encumbrance rules? I personally think the existing encumbrance table
imposes too severe a penalty for characters carrying just a few
kilograms of gear. My breakpoints for penalties begin with a
character being able to carry up to 10% of his total lift STR without
penalty. After that, the breakpoints occur at 20%, 30%, 40%, 60%,
and 100%, with movement penalties applied at the highest encumbrance
levels. A heat prostration modifier would make the wearing of heavy
armor more problematic for knights, say by moving the character's
effective encumbrance level up the chart by one or two levels
depending on the armor type and prevailing climate.
Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Vehicle Help Part II
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:54:29 -0500
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For info on armored vehicles from the personal experiences of those
have actually fought in them, an interesting Website is The Tanker's
Forum at www.airfax.com/dweb/index.asp?SyslD=1.
Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 00:56:25 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: RE: Too much KnockBack with Killing Attacks ?
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At 09:15 AM 12/23/97 -0700, Bill Burcham wrote:
>Rodrigo-
>
>If the special effects (a sword) do not warrant that kind of knockback,
>why not limit the power with "No KB (-1/4)"?
Uh, not a good idea -- "No Knockback", remember, really means "no physical
component". If you put it on a sword, that means you can't (for example)
throw the sword to flip a switch or push a button, etc.
The real problem isn't the killing attack, it's the genre and mechanics --
if you have a 3d6 killing attack (which, if I remember right, is bigger than
a claymore or battle axe) and put 30 STR (ONE TON!) of force *behind* the
original attack: yes, it's completely fitting that in a genre which uses
knockback -at all-, someone's going flying when they get hit with this
thing. (Probably in two directions at once, heh, heh).
And for the record, Rodrigo, yes, the STR *is* a large part of the
knockback. A punch from that character might do "on average no knockback",
but what about a punch matched by a +9d6 HA club (the normal damage
equivalent of that sword)? Then, you're looking at 8" KB (more than the sword).
First, ask yourself if the genre really fits knockback at all -- if your
ninja is in a historical game, use Knockdown. Then, consider WHY the sword
is 3d6K. Is it a cinematically massive blade (like the ones carried by
Donovan from DARKSTALKERS or the hero of FINAL FANTASY VII)? Is it magic (in
which case, I can see buying 1d6K, +2d6K x0KB)? Is it monofilament-level
sharp (consider reducing it to a 2d6K, AP)?
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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From: "potroast@theoven" <darkwraith@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:27:38 -0600
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----------
> From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
> To: champ-l@omg.org
> Subject: So What Now?
> Date: Thursday, December 18, 1997 2:06 PM
>
> So what can we (GRG) do about this negative perception of Hero products
and
> the surivability of 4th Edition? I'm open to suggestions (but please
re-title
> any posts that drift from the topic <G>).
>
> Mark @ GRG
Good Evening (or Morning) all,
I have followed this thread for some time and I will agree with 90% of the
replys; ADVERTISE, I'm from a small town, Tulsa OK., ever heard of it? We
have four game shops (that count) and only one of them have any Hero
Systems books and those three were dusty. Oh and by the way are you
reprinting anything?
--Potroast
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:01:38 -0600 (CST)
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From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Re: Weapons & Armor (was Ninjato)
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At our local Art Museum they have an Axe, from 1600's Germany. It is a large
two hander, it has a sharp spike on one side an a more traditional blade on
the other. That would be AP, it kinda look like a can opener!
Michael
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 04:21:38 EST
Subject: Tulsa, OK
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< I have followed this thread for some time and I will agree with 90% of the
replys; ADVERTISE, I'm from a small town, Tulsa OK., ever heard of it? >>
I sure have. I was stationed at Sheppard AFB in Wichita Falls, TX, for 3.5
years. I drove through Tulsa several times. Unfotunately I spent more time at
Fort Sill (near Lawton) than I did Tulsa, though. ;)
<< We have four game shops (that count) and only one of them have any Hero
Systems books and those three were dusty. >>
With any luck they'll all soon have San Angelo: City of Heroes.
<< Oh and by the way are you reprinting anything?>>
At this time Hero Games has not officially sanctioned us to reprint
anything; just new stuff. But that could change. You know the routine. "I can
niether confirm nor deny..."
Mark @ GRG
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Weapons & Armor (was Ninjato)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:31:43 -0800
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On Monday, December 22, 1997 10:04 PM, Len Carpenter wrote:
>
>Michael Surbrook's response to a RE: Ninjato:
>
>>(weapon discussion snipped)
>My knee-jerk reaction to the phrase "armor piercing" is an attack
>that punches or cuts through armor like an antitank round. That's an
>error. A fine distinction could be made between an AP attack that
>cleaves armor, leaving it rent and so having a lesser protective
>value for that body location, and a percussive attack that transfers
>its energy through the armor to the flesh beneath without grievous
>damage to the armor.
Incidentally, some antitank armor piercing rounds don't make holes in
armor. Ever here of High Explosive, Plastic (HEP) rounds? They spread
plastic explosive over a small area of a target and detonate it. The
armor flexes in such a way that a piece of it is ripped from the inner
side to go careening around the inside of the tank, killing the
occupants.
>With some chopping weapons, I think that halving the effectiveness of
>heavy plate goes a bit too far, while halving the effectiveness of
>lighter armors not far enough. For that reason, I'm considering
>reviving the Piercing rule from the Champions III supplement, with
>the limitation that the Piercing effect works vs. rD only, not vs. a
>character's normal PD. Hence, heavy plate's protection vale is
>reduced somewhat against a battleaxe with a Piercing effect, while
>light armor means nothing to that axe.
A variation on Piercing still exists. You create a weapon with extra
dice of damage, with a couple of modifications/ Limitations. First, it
always does 3 pts per die (+/-0), and only for penetrating armor
(-1/2). The result is that, for each extra die done, three points of
damage are done to negate the armor only.
<snip>
Filksinger
X-Sender: fogi@mail.inter.net.il
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:56:17 +0200
From: Ori Folger <fogi@inter.net.il>
Subject: Re: GRG: Possible Sourcebooks?
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At 05:11 22/12/97 -0800, you wrote:
> Absolutely.
> If possible, I'd recommend going the same route Hero did, in using
>authors actually living in the respective countries, at least for the three
>books you mention. (And cover the whole UK, not just England.)
> A Japanese sourcebook would be a good idea too.
Not that it would be very popular, or useful, but I wouldn't mind a Middle
Eastern one.
---
Ori Folger (Calanya)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 03:25:19 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Building A Super Hero World
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Brian Wong wrote:
<....>
> I need to explain why the world would choose to ban super soilders.
> Why they place trust in a private organization, how they justify super-cops.
>
> I thought I'd go about talking about how supers came into being, what
> actions led up to them being banned from military usage, why they are viewed as
> they are, etc...
I haven't read the whole thing yet, but as to the ban on
supersoldiers;
It would seem very simple to claim that Paranormals in the military
are simple too unpredictable. On one hand, their powers may not be
something that can either be mimicked or countered (as opposed to
weapons which are available equally to all soldiers) thus potentially
'unbalancing' a platoon or squad. Also, a paranormal cannot have
his/her 'weapon' taken away (or at least not easily). Both of these
aspects potentially could cause problems with discipline and/or command
structure.
Alternately, having squadrons consisting entirely of paranormals -
pay attention, now, this is a great 'real world'ish arguement here -
would cause CIVIL RIGHTS violations; barring 'normals' from paranormal
squads violates equality laws. Allowing normals into paranormal squads
brings us back to discipline and command structure issues. Catch-22.
Thus Supers must be banned from the military. This also provides
arguement enough for protest against the ban as well (that the ban is
just as much a violation of equality issues).
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Subject: Re: Weapons & Armor (was Ninjato)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 97 06:42:03 -0500
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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Len Carpenter redlion@voicenet.com 12/23/97 1:42 AM
>LC>> I've read that part of the efficacy of the axe was its
>percussive effect as well as its cutting power. Where the heavy axe
>did not cleave through mail, its mass enabled it to crush the flesh
>underneath. As a matter of personal taste, I prefer to reserve the
>AP Advantage for the beaked war hammer and other weapons with a
>pick-like fluke capable of punching square holes through plate. It
>keeps those weapons unique in the armory. I wouldn't rule out axes
>of quality as having AP potential, though. <<
>
>MS> And crushing the flesh underneath means doing Body damage through
>the armor - i.e. AP attacks. We treated picks, war hammers and axes
>the same way, since they all had the same end result, doing damage
>even through thick armor. <
This sounds a lot like Penetrating to me, i.e. the percussive force
involved in the strike does some body reguardless of whether or not
the armor is actually overcome (as in AP).
Just my $0.02.
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 03:48:19 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Flashes (was Re: 5th Edition Hero: So)
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Dave Mattingly wrote:
> This is off the top of my head, and completely untested...
>
> Flash: Instead of flashes completely blinding an opponent for a number
> of phases, how about it removes perception levels. 3 points for each -1
> PER, like images. Now, a 30-point flash will give a -10 PER to a normal
> opponent, and will heal back at +3 PER each phase (or maybe +1 per
> segment).
>
> Flash Defense: +2 PER for purposes of defending against flashes for each
> point.
>
> Example: The Flasher shoots an area effect 10 PER sight flash at Looker
> and Blaster. Looker has a PER of 16-, and 4 points of sight flash def.
> Blaster has a PER of 13- and no flash defense. Looker's PER has been
> reduced to a 10-. Blaster's has been reduced to 3-. Both Looker and
> Blaster must make PER rolls every phase until their vision is fully
> restored.
I like the concept! Of course, virtually all of MY house rules are
pretty much 'off the top of my head and completely untested' and stay
that way....
Though, the one other thing that always bugged me about Flash (well,
not ALWAYS) was when it changed from automatic Area Effect to Single
Target. I think that the default level for Flash should be Explosion,
Non-Selective Target, where the attack roll was applied seperately to
all within the effect. MOST Flash effects (BrightLight,LoudNoise) work
this way, then those effects which are targeted more specifically
(Pepper blown into someone's face) could then take a limitation. Or
perhaps, if the two options are considered to have advantages and
limitations as compared to each other, the choice between Single Target
or Explosion must be made when the power is purchased. Technically,
Explosion-Non-Selective Target would be worth a +1/4 advantage (assuming
the GM does not rule that selective/nonselective can only apply to
strictly "Area Effect" powers and that Explosion is 'different').
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:42:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Weapons & Armor (was Ninjato)
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On Tue, 23 Dec 1997, John P Weatherman wrote:
> >LC>> I've read that part of the efficacy of the axe was its
> >percussive effect as well as its cutting power. Where the heavy axe
> >did not cleave through mail, its mass enabled it to crush the flesh
> >underneath. As a matter of personal taste, I prefer to reserve the
> >AP Advantage for the beaked war hammer and other weapons with a
> >pick-like fluke capable of punching square holes through plate. It
> >keeps those weapons unique in the armory. I wouldn't rule out axes
> >of quality as having AP potential, though. <<
> >
> >MS> And crushing the flesh underneath means doing Body damage through
> >the armor - i.e. AP attacks. We treated picks, war hammers and axes
> >the same way, since they all had the same end result, doing damage
> >even through thick armor. <
>
> This sounds a lot like Penetrating to me, i.e. the percussive force
> involved in the strike does some body reguardless of whether or not
> the armor is actually overcome (as in AP).
Except that Penetrating will do Body with *any* hit. This isn't so. With
AP you hae a better chance of doing Body, but a weak hit will still
bounce. This is better balanced. Doing Body damage through the armor is
a matter of FX. You don't have to damage the armor to hurt someone. A
kevlar vest may stop (for example) a .44 magnum round from penetrating,
but you still might get a broken rib from th impact.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 06:54:04 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: So What Now?
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At 01:27 AM 12/23/97 -0600, potroast@theoven wrote:
>Good Evening (or Morning) all,
>
> I have followed this thread for some time and I will agree with 90% of the
>replys; ADVERTISE, I'm from a small town, Tulsa OK., ever heard of it? We
>have four game shops (that count) and only one of them have any Hero
>Systems books and those three were dusty. Oh and by the way are you
>reprinting anything?
Tulsa? I've heard of it. Ever hear of Corvallis, Oregon? (Not unless
you're a big fan of basketball's A. C. Green, ESPN's Harold Reynolds, or
Nobel Laureate Linus Pauling, or have been thoroughly perusing my own
website.) At population 45,000 (approximate), we have two game stores
(well, really a hobby store and a comic store which happen to stock games),
of which one (the hobby store) carries any Hero stuff of note. At that,
the guy in charge of games at that store gets all of his news about Hero
from me; his distributor seems to be under the "Hero Games isn't available
any more, Champions is out of print" school of thought.
Luckily, I can put anything I want on special order. Now if only we
could find Hero Plus in the distributor's catalog, everything would be
fine, at least as far as that channel goes.
Then we gotta find some way to get a decent exposure; White Wolf and a
couple of cyberware-type games seems to be dominating the "eye-level shelf"
in the game section, with Hero, GURPS, and such games down below. (I kinda
have a feeling that San Angelo may have a shot at actually moving Hero to
top and front.)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:54:16 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Weapons & Armor (was Ninjato)
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On Tue, 23 Dec 1997, Len Carpenter wrote:
> With some chopping weapons, I think that halving the effectiveness of
> heavy plate goes a bit too far, while halving the effectiveness of
> lighter armors not far enough. For that reason, I'm considering
> reviving the Piercing rule from the Champions III supplement, with
> the limitation that the Piercing effect works vs. rD only, not vs. a
> character's normal PD. Hence, heavy plate's protection vale is
> reduced somewhat against a battleaxe with a Piercing effect, while
> light armor means nothing to that axe.
This is not a bad idea, although Piercing can be very unbalancing in a low
DEF environment.
> One of the great strengths--yet complexities--of the HERO System is
> that it gives the GM a surfeit of choices for building weapons. How
> many other game systems give us so many options to thrash over in a
> debate?
Uh... GURPS?
> MS> Okay, I see. I had a bit of a go-around with some one a while
> back about the use of jousting and 'bullet proof' armor. I would
> like to point out, however, that Maximilian plate is considered some
> of the finest armor ever made, and it is 'heavily fluted', although
> the fluting has a purpose, unlike some suits I have seen (which, as
> you say, were meant for parades). Ever seen the suit made to look
> like a Landesknecht's slashed-and-puffed dress? <
>
> Yes, I have. It's hard to look at photos of such armor without
> chuckling.
True. But is certainly shows off the skill of the armorer. (Which was
the intent in many cases).
> Incidentally, have you ever tried any guideline to reflect the heat
> prostration problem of wearing heavy armor, aside from the standard
> encumbrance rules? I personally think the existing encumbrance table
> imposes too severe a penalty for characters carrying just a few
> kilograms of gear. My breakpoints for penalties begin with a
> character being able to carry up to 10% of his total lift STR without
> penalty. After that, the breakpoints occur at 20%, 30%, 40%, 60%,
> and 100%, with movement penalties applied at the highest encumbrance
> levels. A heat prostration modifier would make the wearing of heavy
> armor more problematic for knights, say by moving the character's
> effective encumbrance level up the chart by one or two levels
> depending on the armor type and prevailing climate.
Our group wnet the other direction. We decided to do a flat no
encumbrance (no DCV minus); 1/2 armor (-1 DCV); full armor (-2 DCV).
Simpler and easier to keep track of.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:32:12 -0200 (EDT)
From: Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria <gevaerd@laranjeiras.lci.ufrj.br>
Subject: Too much KnockBack with Killing Attacks ?
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I have a ninja-like character, with a quite powerful sword: 3d6K. He
has 30 STR, so a normal hit with his sword would do 5d6K, with an average
of 17.5 body. The 3d6 of knockback roll has an average of 10.5, which give
us an average of 7" = 14 meters of knockback. I guess 14 meters is more
than half basketball court... don't you think this is too much ?
I don't think his STR is the cause of quite big knockback, because a
punch with that STR would do no knockback on average.
Subject: Re: Weapons & Armor (was Ninjato)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 97 11:06:20 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
cc: <champ-l@omg.org>
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On 12/23/97 9:54 AM, Michael Surbrook (susano@access.digex.net) Said:
>> With some chopping weapons, I think that halving the effectiveness of
>> heavy plate goes a bit too far, while halving the effectiveness of
>> lighter armors not far enough. For that reason, I'm considering
>> reviving the Piercing rule from the Champions III supplement, with
>> the limitation that the Piercing effect works vs. rD only, not vs. a
>> character's normal PD. Hence, heavy plate's protection vale is
>> reduced somewhat against a battleaxe with a Piercing effect, while
>> light armor means nothing to that axe.
>
>This is not a bad idea, although Piercing can be very unbalancing in a low
>DEF environment.
Most of the discussions you guys have on this thread are beyond me, but...
Beacause AP doesn't seem to make sense alot of the time <<i mean, why
should it ake 10 pts off of my def 20 armor, but only 2 pts off of my def
4 armor?>> I usually use AP as reducing the DEF of the target by the
number of damage classes of the attack.
Thus a 2d6 AP RKA reduces the targets def by 6 pts, whether it is 12, 20,
or 100 pts to begin with.
YMMV, Dave
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:10:01 -0500
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: Con Games
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> > conventions. I would have to echo that sentiment. I went to GenCon for
> > the first time this year and was sorely disappointed in the number of
> > Champions/Hero games that were being run. The games that WERE run were
> > almost always pre-filled, with people standing around hoping for a
> > no-show so that they could sit in. Obviously the INTEREST in the game
> > is there...
> >
> Really? I always thought it was big there. How many games did you
> see? What WAS big?
I was at GenCon (indeed, I ran a Hero game there :-), and I had a different
view. There were at least a couple dozen Hero Games to choose from, if not
more; I played exclusively Hero Games the whole con, playing at least three a
day. I played in a Superhero game, a Fantasy game (the reason I go to GenCon
:-), a Horror game, ran a modern psi game, a X-Files/Big Trouble in Little
China/Lawnmower Man game, and one more that escapes me.
What I liked in particular about many of these games is that they used the
Hero System, but were extremely light on mechanics while you were playing. My
psi game was like that; players didn't even get HSR writeups of their powers,
so that the mechanics wouldn't get in the way. Hopefully, they had a good time
regardless. :-)
Geoff Speare
From: Bill Burcham <bburcham@summitelectric.com>
Subject: RE: Too much KnockBack with Killing Attacks ?
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:15:39 -0700
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Rodrigo-
If the special effects (a sword) do not warrant that kind of knockback,
why not limit the power with "No KB (-1/4)"?
============
Bill Burcham (bburcham@summitelectric.com)
Network/Systems Administrator
SUMMIT Electric Supply
Hear-Forget, See-Learn, Do-Understand
-----Original Message-----
From: Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria
[SMTP:gevaerd@laranjeiras.lci.ufrj.br]
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 1997 8:32 AM
To: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Too much KnockBack with Killing Attacks ?
I have a ninja-like character, with a quite powerful sword:
3d6K. He
has 30 STR, so a normal hit with his sword would do 5d6K, with
an average
of 17.5 body. The 3d6 of knockback roll has an average of 10.5,
which give
us an average of 7" = 14 meters of knockback. I guess 14 meters
is more
than half basketball court... don't you think this is too much ?
I don't think his STR is the cause of quite big knockback,
because a
punch with that STR would do no knockback on average.
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:20:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Too much KnockBack with Killing Attacks ?
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On Tue, 23 Dec 1997, Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria wrote:
>
> I have a ninja-like character, with a quite powerful sword: 3d6K. He
> has 30 STR, so a normal hit with his sword would do 5d6K, with an average
> of 17.5 body. The 3d6 of knockback roll has an average of 10.5, which give
> us an average of 7" = 14 meters of knockback. I guess 14 meters is more
> than half basketball court... don't you think this is too much ?
> I don't think his STR is the cause of quite big knockback, because a
> punch with that STR would do no knockback on average.
>
>
I don't think the rules really need fixing here - this is more a matter of
genre. A 5d6 KA is a pretty serious attack. At 80 active points, if you're
comparing it to a punch compare it to a 16d6 punch, which does an average
of 9" (18 meters) of knockback.
This isn't realistic, and it isn't supposed to be. The knockback rules are
meant to simulate comic book combat which is somewhat exaggerated in its
effects. If this doesn't suit your game, perhaps the GM should be using
the knockdown rules. If it just doesn't suit your character, consider
building his sword as a No Knockback attack. (As a GM, I would also allow
a "Reduced Knockback" attack if it seemed appropriate.)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:32:47 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Too much KnockBack with Killing Attacks ?
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> I have a ninja-like character, with a quite powerful sword: 3d6K. He
>has 30 STR, so a normal hit with his sword would do 5d6K, with an average
>of 17.5 body. The 3d6 of knockback roll has an average of 10.5, which give
>us an average of 7" = 14 meters of knockback. I guess 14 meters is more
>than half basketball court... don't you think this is too much ?
> I don't think his STR is the cause of quite big knockback, because a
>punch with that STR would do no knockback on average.
Why don't you just buy the sword as a 'no Knockback' weapon and save a
points (not to mention your peace of mind)?
BTW, a 5D6 RKA throwing a human target 14 meters doesn't seem
unreasonable...how far would you fly if you took a direct hit from a
military-class weapon?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: New Limitation: Puncture
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 23 Dec 1997 11:34:43 -0500
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
BG> That "precision" is usually bought separately, as a +1 or +2 to OCV,
BG> or up to +4 to Range Modifiers, and not just given arbitrarily.
Um, say what? The ability to hit a switch is an OCV bonus? I don't think
so. It is a special effect, nothing more, nothing less.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Too much KnockBack with Killing Attacks ?
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Date: 23 Dec 1997 11:37:16 -0500
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>>>>> "RCGdF" == Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria
>>>>> <gevaerd@laranjeiras.lci.ufrj.br> writes:
RCGdF> I have a ninja-like character, with a quite powerful sword:
RCGdF> 3d6K. He has 30 STR, so a normal hit with his sword would do 5d6K,
Which exceeds the basic superheroic 12DC limit for attacks[1].
I think his base attack is too much.
[1] It is this kind of thing that caused Hero to introduce the concept of
Damage Classes and DC caps as a replacement for active point caps.
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X-Sender: scm@mail.aci.net
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:47:17 -0800
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <scm@mactyre.net>
Subject: Playtesters Sought
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Greetings, all, and happy holidays!
I'm just about done with the section of the PRIMUS Sourcebook on
campaigning, and getting there with the equipment. In the next two weeks,
I'm going to be looking for people to playtest things and give me feedback.
(What I'm asking y'all to playtest are the guidelines for running a
campaign composed of PRIMUS agents, but if you'd like to make up a bunch of
agents according to the rules I've come up with and use them in your
campaigns, I'd also be interested in hearing about that!) Ideally, I'd
like for GMs to run a PRIMUS game or two according to the rules, but I'm
also looking for simple feedback on the character generation process, new
(PRIMUS campaign-specialized) perks, and just general comments.
If you're interested, and are, most importantly, willing to answer a bunch
of questions about your experiences about what worked and what didn't,
please drop me a (personal) line, and I'll add you to the playtest list.
Thanks a bunch, and merry Christmas!
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
www.mactyre.net
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Weapons & Armor (was Ninjato)
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>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes:
MS> Except that Penetrating will do Body with *any* hit. This isn't so.
MS> With AP you hae a better chance of doing Body, but a weak hit will
MS> still bounce. This is better balanced.
This is the point where instead of trying to figure out which advantages to
apply to attacks, you need to list the characteristics of various types of
armor, and what their effects are against the variety of attacks they will
defend against. In other words, nail down the special effects first, then
start working on powers and modifers.
For instance, chain mail does not so much absorb damage as spreads it out,
so that the padding underneath can absorb the energy. So in Hero terms,
instead of, say 6-8 DEF Armor, it might be 4-6PD Damage Resistance + 2-4
DEF Armor, with a -1/4 Limitation that it has half effect aginst attacks
with a "piercing" special effect[1] -- to wit, anything classified as a
"stilletto".
So, a fairly tough character wearing chain will have an effective rPD of
about 8, vs. most weapons, enough to stop most or all of the Body damage,
on average, of a 2D6KA. His rPD against stillettos will be half that,
about 4. And against the example bloody-huge battle axe doing 3D6KA, he
will be hurt by the "blow through".
[1]In another thread someone tried to call this a -1/4 limitation on the
power used to make the attack.
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:57:49 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Too much KnockBack with Killing Attacks ?
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At 01:32 PM 12/23/97 -0200, Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria wrote:
>
> I have a ninja-like character, with a quite powerful sword: 3d6K. He
>has 30 STR, so a normal hit with his sword would do 5d6K, with an average
>of 17.5 body. The 3d6 of knockback roll has an average of 10.5, which give
>us an average of 7" = 14 meters of knockback. I guess 14 meters is more
>than half basketball court... don't you think this is too much ?
> I don't think his STR is the cause of quite big knockback, because a
>punch with that STR would do no knockback on average.
That's not really that outrageous. Remember, it's not *just* the STR
that's behind the knockback; the mass of the sword makes quite a
contribution (considering that's what's behind 60% of the base damage).
Like the character's STR, the sword also will do no Knockback on
average. It's the *combination* of the two that is so devastating. And at
5d6K, we shouldn't be surprised; if someone capable of lifting a small car
off the ground were to hit me at full board with a sword some 5' long, I'd
probably go sailing a ways.
Also, I don't tend to think of Knockback as *necessarily* meaning the
character goes flying through the air. I once got into a brief fight with
someone (back when my body was a little more capable of such things, and my
temper a little more prone to it) and ended it when I smacked him a good
one in the chops. He stumbled back a good six feet before falling to the
ground. That could be considered Knockback (in this case, one inch in game
scale).
(Murphy's Rule: in fights between average normals, one successful blow
out of 1296 will send the recipient flying back 8 meters.)
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:06:53 -0600
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us>
Subject: HELP!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Can someone please tell me the address for unsubscibing this list?
(Good list- but I can't handle the volume any more)
Thank you...
Earl Kwallek - Earl@TheWarren.Mil.Wi.US
A Man with a gun is a citizen;
a man without a gun is a subject.
The best Gun in the World is -
The one that you have ready in your Hand!
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 15:08:30 -0200 (EDT)
From: Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria <gevaerd@laranjeiras.lci.ufrj.br>
Subject: Re: Too much KnockBack with Killing Attacks ?
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On Tue, 23 Dec 1997, John and Ron Prins wrote:
> BTW, a 5D6 RKA throwing a human target 14 meters doesn't seem
> unreasonable...how far would you fly if you took a direct hit from a
> military-class weapon?
>
If it was something like a mortar, ok, but I can think in no killing
attack which would be able to do such think, only normal attacks.
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:42:40 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: RE: Too much KnockBack with Killing Attacks ?
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>>If the special effects (a sword) do not warrant that kind of knockback,
>>why not limit the power with "No KB (-1/4)"?
>
>Uh, not a good idea -- "No Knockback", remember, really means "no physical
>component". If you put it on a sword, that means you can't (for example)
>throw the sword to flip a switch or push a button, etc.
Yeah, but kind of stupid - I think most GMs would ignore that bit. It's only
a -1/4 limitation. Might as well just say "Does Knockdown rather than
Knockback" (-1/4). Happy?
>The real problem isn't the killing attack, it's the genre and mechanics --
>if you have a 3d6 killing attack (which, if I remember right, is bigger than
>a claymore or battle axe) and put 30 STR (ONE TON!) of force *behind* the
>original attack: yes, it's completely fitting that in a genre which uses
>knockback -at all-, someone's going flying when they get hit with this
>thing. (Probably in two directions at once, heh, heh).
Indeed, but it could very well just cleave right through without a great
deal of 'impact' force. A good sharp blade can separate flesh (and more)
with very little actual force being transferred. Like the old 'chop the
candle in half without it falling off' trick in all the Zorro flicks (the
upcoming Zorro flick had better have one of these or it won't _be_ a Zorro
flick).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:57:27 EST
Subject: Re: GRG: Possible Sourcebooks?
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Not that it would be very popular, or useful, but I wouldn't mind a Middle
Eastern one.>>
You'll be seeing several Middle Eastern characters in Sands of Time
(scheduled for release next Spring). ;)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:12:02 EST
Subject: Re: Too much KnockBack with Killing Attacks ?
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Which exceeds the basic superheroic 12DC limit for attacks >>
There isn't any such "limit" that I am aware of. 12DC was mentioned as an
average in the BBB, I think, but there certainly isn't a limit...
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:14:27 EST
Subject: Re: Too much KnockBack with Killing Attacks ?
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<<, I have a ninja-like character, with a quite powerful sword: 3d6K. He has
30 STR... don't you think this is too much ? >>
In a word... yes! Good heavens! A 30 STR *and* a 3D6 HKA?
Mark @ GRG
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"John and Ron Prins\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 97 18:28:17
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
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On Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:44:02 -0500 (EST), John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>15 VPP(5), Cosmic (+2)
>>17 1d6 Absorption, +10 max., feeds to maximum Absorption and VPP,
>>fade 5/day (+1 1/2), only vs electricity (-1/2)
>>
>>Since wall sockets do damage, he could charge up quickly with this
>>power to an absolutely enormous power level.
>
>Not really. Without the +2 advantage (all powers of a given SFX), he
>shouldn't be able to absorb to his VPP. Besides, we all know that absorbing
>to your absorption capacity is abusive, neh? :-)
But like PD & ED it's on a 2:1 basis, isn't it?
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
Subject: Re: Too much KnockBack with Killing Attacks ?
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 97 14:16:20 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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>, I have a ninja-like character, with a quite powerful sword: 3d6K. He has
>30 STR... don't you think this is too much ?
Lessee, a 3d6 K is the same as a round from a .50 cal machine gun. A 30
str can be used to lift a car. Put them together & you do knock back of
about 15'.
Sounds just fine to me. Maybe you should consider some DC caps in your
campaign.
| David A. Fair
Think Different | SDS International
| dfair@sdslink.com
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 19:19:59 +0000
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Super Hero theme songs
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Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
> On Mon, 22 Dec 1997, Michael Nunn wrote:
>
> > I have always found inspiration from music. I have named and based heros,
> > villains, organizations and even one whole campaign after music.
> >
> > Blue Oyster Cult has been a constant source of ideas, as has Queensryche.
>
> Tell me about it.
>
> In my first Champions game ever, my character is returned from the
> dimension of Limbo (much like Marvel's Limbo) just as BOC's "Veteran of
> the Psychic Wars" tell us "I've been living on the edge too long, where
> the winds of Limbo roar".
There was a story in "The Defenders" based on BOC songs. I can't remember the
issue numbers though. I'm thinking the 20's though.
-Mark
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Too much KnockBack with Killing Attacks ?
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:23:52 -0800
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On Tuesday, December 23, 1997 7:08 AM, Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria
wrote:
>
> I have a ninja-like character, with a quite powerful sword: 3d6K.
He
>has 30 STR, so a normal hit with his sword would do 5d6K, with an
average
>of 17.5 body. The 3d6 of knockback roll has an average of 10.5, which
give
>us an average of 7" = 14 meters of knockback. I guess 14 meters is
more
>than half basketball court... don't you think this is too much ?
> I don't think his STR is the cause of quite big knockback,
because a
>punch with that STR would do no knockback on average.
Your sword does an entire d6 of killing damage more than the light LAW
(Light Antitank Weapons) used by the US Infantry. It is in the same
class as the big guns on many tanks. There is nothing strange about
doing knockback with that.
If you still don't like it, use the "No Knockback" Limitation. If that
isn't good enough, use the limitation on _part_ of the attack instead
of all of it.
Filksinger
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Re: Con Games
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:03:38 CST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> I was at GenCon (indeed, I ran a Hero game there :-), and I had a different
> view. There were at least a couple dozen Hero Games to choose from, if not
> more; I played exclusively Hero Games the whole con, playing at least three a
> day. I played in a Superhero game, a Fantasy game (the reason I go to GenCon
> :-), a Horror game, ran a modern psi game, a X-Files/Big Trouble in Little
> China/Lawnmower Man game, and one more that escapes me.
>
> What I liked in particular about many of these games is that they used the
> Hero System, but were extremely light on mechanics while you were playing. My
> psi game was like that; players didn't even get HSR writeups of their powers,
> so that the mechanics wouldn't get in the way. Hopefully, they had a good time
> regardless. :-)
OK: tell us how you did this... This is my major beef with HERO; it
totally ruins the fantasy feel, for example, for the players to be
immersed in mechanics. Give us some details!
DonM.
--
=========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist, (217) 239-8365 =
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
=========================================================================
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Con Games
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:57:34 -0800
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On Tuesday, December 23, 1997 11:31 AM, Don McKinney wrote:
<snip>
>> What I liked in particular about many of these games is that they
used the
>> Hero System, but were extremely light on mechanics while you were
playing. My
>> psi game was like that; players didn't even get HSR writeups of
their powers,
>> so that the mechanics wouldn't get in the way. Hopefully, they had
a good time
>> regardless. :-)
>
>OK: tell us how you did this... This is my major beef with HERO; it
>totally ruins the fantasy feel, for example, for the players to be
>immersed in mechanics. Give us some details!
>
That's an easy one. Rather, it is easy to explain, complex to do.
Simply do all the mechanics work yourself. Avoid things like "Its
segment twelve. Who has the highest DEX?" and instead say, "It's your
turn."
Its a lot of work, but it can be done. Takes an experienced GM,
though, and the GM needs a copy (possibly the only copy) of every
character sheet at his fingertips. Combat order sheets and various
other cheat sheets are invaluable.
Filksinger
X-Originating-IP: [206.88.2.1]
From: "Todd Hanson" <badtodd@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Con Games
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 15:04:50 CST
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Don said:
>Geoff said:
> What I liked in particular about many of these games is that they used
the
> Hero System, but were extremely light on mechanics while you were
playing. My
> psi game was like that; players didn't even get HSR writeups of their
powers,
> so that the mechanics wouldn't get in the way. Hopefully, they had a
good time
> regardless. :-)
>OK: tell us how you did this... This is my major beef with HERO; it
>totally ruins the fantasy feel, for example, for the players to be
>immersed in mechanics. Give us some details!
Well, as one of the players in the game, let me give you MY views on how
it worked:
Basically, we each received a handout with a picture of our character, a
write up of our background, a vague description of what we could do, and
a short summary of how we felt about each of the other characters.
This was great, I wish ALL of the games I had played in had done this.
The fact that we had no HSR write ups of our characters did help alot in
promoting role-playing. In fact, I would say that Geoff's game had the
best role-playing if any of the games I played in at GenCon.
About the only problem I had with this (and it was a very minor one) was
that everybody was a little unclear as to what they could do. It would
have been nice to have had a little clearer description (maybe with some
examples) of how strong our powers were. (you can lift a van with your
telekinesis, but not a bus.. etc)
I guess there was one other negative side to this method... it wasn't a
Champions game. From our side of the table we could have been using
Hero or Gurps or Tunnels and Trolls rules.. it wouldn't have affected
the game either way. I guess this could be construed as good or bad,
depending on your goals. It worked great for immersing the players into
the game, it didn't do anything to 'promote' Champions/Hero.
Todd
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:33:03 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Seasons Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Just a brief Merry Christmas to everyone on the list, and may you all
find the Spirit of peace and reconciliation for the holiday season. :-]
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 17:15:12 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Redbow Antiques
Subject: Re: Seasons Greetings
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> Just a brief Merry Christmas to everyone on the list, and may you >all find the Spirit of peace and reconciliation for the holiday >season. :-]
Yeah, but just try to make that spirit up with powers that effect the
real world. x2 advantage. :)
Comments: Authenticated sender is <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca>
From: "Vance Scott" <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 18:32:02 -500
Subject: Re: Regeneration of Limbs, and Body Parts
Reply-to: vances@sympatico.ca
CC: champ-l@omg.org
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> > Thus human's are unable to regenerate organs, or limbs. This is why
> > you buy the power Regeneration to provide full, and complete
> > Regeneration not speed our limited natural regenerative abilities..
>
> Just to restate where we came from, there is no argument that, if you
> want the ability to regrow limbs, some variation on Regeneration is
> appropriate.
>The question is entirely whether for a mere 10 points one
> should have, in addition to the ability to be healed from death's door to
> full health in only six minutes, the ability to regrow a lost limb
> completely in the same time, or whether one needs an advantage.
Agreed. My Dictionary, and your Medical Dictionary no longer
bare on this argument. We'll consider this strictly from a cost, and
game based perspective from now on.
> > Aside from that, Star Trek isn't the most reliable source of
> > scientific, or even symantic information.
> Oh, be reasonable! I did not cite Star Trek for real-world science, nor
> for real-world semantics.
No offense intended here. I was meerly stating that I considered a
star trek references in our debate as pointless. Please recall this
statement came on the heels of the medical dictionary quote as well.
> > A fixed roll of 2 is artifically damaging to an Aid Regeneration
> > comparison since an average roll on a d6 is 3.5 not 2.
> Yes, but insurance always costs something. I generally allow a fixed
> roll of 3 per die, where warranted by special effect. I would not be
> averse to a -1/4 limitation in this case, but I think that -1/2 would be
> too much.
>
> >
> > > 0 END/Persistent(+1) Uncontrolled(+1/2) [50 active]
> >
> > It isn't necessary to buy both Uncontrolled, and Persistant as they
> > both provide a similiar effect.
>
> Checking the rules more carefully, I note that Aid is not a continuous
> power, and so the advantage Continuous(+1) is required. Once that is
> purchased, then the power should be bought Uncontrolled (since the power
> normally requires an attack action, even if used on oneself).
>
> I also forgot to add Triggered/damage(+1/4), which is required because
> Regeneration does not take an action to use. We can assume that there is
> a phase to reset the power between battles.
>
> >
> > > Extra Time/turn(-1)
> >
> > This limitation robs aid of it greatest advantage over regeneration
> > acting per phase instead of per turn. The addition of this limitation
> > is unneccessary, and arbitarily handicaps Aid.
>
> Excuse me? I am trying to create virtually the same effect using two
> powers: Aid and Regeneration. This is the only valid way to compare two
> powers. Since I cannot speed up Regeneration, I must slow down Aid.
>
> >
> > > and that doesn't even quite do it, since the Regeneration has *no* upper
> > > limit, but I concede that few characters take more than 36 BODY per
> > > month.
> >
> > True, but regeneration's lack of an upper limit becomes moot if
> > you're dead. Most champions characters have a body of 10-13.
>
> If your adventures are all one-battle adventures, with plenty of time in
> between, then a smaller limit will do; however, if your PCs are often
> following up leads and fighting several smaller battles within a month,
> then those extra points are the *primary* advantage of Regeneration over
> Aid.
>
> >
> >
> > A proper Aid simulating Regeneration.
>
> With my corrections added.
>
> >
> > 24 Aid vs. Body 1d6 cp (5cp), + 38 cp to maximum restoration (19cp)
>
> > +1 Invisible Power Effects
> > +1/2 0 EnduranceCost
>
> I hadn't thought of IPE. Good point. Even though one can see the
> effects of the Regeneration, there should be no obvious use of power, and
> nothing to interfere with using Stealth while the power is going.
>
> > +1/2 Persistant
>
> +1 Continuous for reasons above stated.
> +1/2 Uncontrolled (requires some way to stop it)
> +1/4 Triggered by Damage
>
> > 72 cp
>
> 102 active points.
>
> > -1 Only usable vs. Self (As Aid is usable vs. Other a +1 advantage
> > it seemed fair to reverse this value.)
>
> -1/4 Usable on Others is only +1/4, after all.
>
> > -1/2 Only restore to Starting Value
> > -1/2 Always On - Can't Push, and may cause difficulties with
> > Disguises, and Secret Identities. Wounds healing if front of
> > others is a give-away.
>
> I would not allow a limitation for Always On for this power, especially
> if bought IPE.
>
> > 24 cp Grand Total
>
> 57 Real Points
>
> > Assuming an average speed of 4 and an average roll 3.5 this would
> > regenerate a total of 14 cp a turn, or 7 body.
>
> The choice of average SPD depends heavily on campaign and character
> concept, which is why I elected to use the Extra Time limitation
> to bring the two into sync. Suppose that a character has a SPD of 3,
> then we get 5.25 BODY/turn, for a total of 50 points of Regeneration,
> which just a smidgen cheaper than the Aid, which is measurably less
> powerful.
>
> Regeneration is the only way under the Hero System to purchase
> accelerated healing. To get limb regrowth too, for no points, strikes me
> as unbalancing.
>
>
> --
> <------------------------------------------------------->
> Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
> Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
> http://www.erols.com/robtwest
>
>
Vance Scott
Vanquisher of all foes
Comments: Authenticated sender is <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca>
From: "Vance Scott" <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 18:48:54 -500
Subject: Re: Regeneration of Limbs, and Body Parts
Reply-to: vances@sympatico.ca
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>The question is entirely whether for a mere 10 points one
> should have, in addition to the ability to be healed from death's door to
> full health in only six minutes, the ability to regrow a lost limb
> completely in the same time, or whether one needs an advantage.
Agreed. My Dictionary, and your Medical Dictionary no longer
bare on this argument. We'll consider this strictly from a cost, and
gameplay based perspective from now on.
> Oh, be reasonable! I did not cite Star Trek for real-world science, nor
> for real-world semantics.
No offense intended here. I was meerly stating that I considered your
star trek reference as pointless. Please recall this statement came
on the heels of your medical dictionary quote.
> > A fixed roll of 2 is artifically damaging to an Aid Regeneration
> > comparison since an average roll on a d6 is 3.5 not 2.
> Yes, but insurance always costs something. I generally allow a fixed
> roll of 3 per die, where warranted by special effect. I would not be
> averse to a -1/4 limitation in this case, but I think that -1/2 would be
> too much.
Aaaargggghhh! You seem intent on inventing limitations where none
are required. Limitations, although generally an asset to the hero
system, have a few faults. The value of a limitation is subjective,
and often based on personal feelings instead of a well defined
cost system. The discount given by a limitation is restricted to
multiples of 0.25 which isn't necessarily appropriate.
Insurance may cost, but it should also provide benefit. I don't
see any benefit to consistantly rolling 3 on a d6, particularly
when the results of rolling a 1 are hardly catastrophic. Only a fool
would buy insurance at your prices. Frankly, I'm not buying stubbed
toe insurance.
If you're determined that dice rolls be eliminated from an aid
based power that simulates regeneration than 3.5 is the number for a
+0 Limitation/Advantage.
> Checking the rules more carefully, I note that Aid is not a continuous
> power, and so the advantage Continuous(+1) is required. Once that is
> purchased, then the power should be bought Uncontrolled
>(since the power normally requires an attack action, even if used
on oneself).
> I also forgot to add Triggered/damage(+1/4), which is required because
> Regeneration does not take an action to use. We can assume that there is
> a phase to reset the power between battles.
>
> >
> > > Extra Time/turn(-1)
> Excuse me? I am trying to create virtually the same effect using two
> powers: Aid and Regeneration. This is the only valid way to compare two
> powers. Since I cannot speed up Regeneration, I must slow down Aid.
I don't accept your supposition that the only way to compare two
powers is to force one power completely into the mold of the other.
Even accepting your supposition Aid is still the better buy
Additional, it seems you didn't bother to re-read the extra time
limitation. The extra time involved with this limitation is only to
turn a power on, and has no effect on the regular operation of a
"CONTINOUS" power.
> +1 Continuous for reasons above stated.
> +1/2 Uncontrolled (requires some way to stop it)
> +1/4 Triggered by Damage
Trigger is completely unneccessary on a power that is continous. Why
worry about turning a power off and on when you can run it 24 hours a
day at no extra cost.
> > -1 Only usable vs. Self (As Aid is usable vs. Other a +1 advantage
> > it seemed fair to reverse this value.)
>
> -1/4 Usable on Others is only +1/4, after all.
Check the BBB again. The only +1/4 mentioned in that text involves
the doubling of mass of inanimate matter affected that is affected by
the power with the usable on others "+1 ADVANTAGE".
> > -1/2 Only restore to Starting Value
> > -1/2 Always On - Can't Push, and may cause difficulties with
> > Disguises, and Secret Identities. Wounds healing if front of
> > others is a give-away.
>
> I would not allow a limitation for Always On for this power, especially
> if bought IPE.
Not an unreasonable position.
> > Assuming an average speed of 4 and an average roll 3.5 this would
> > regenerate a total of 14 cp a turn, or 7 body.
>
> The choice of average SPD depends heavily on campaign and character
> concept, which is why I elected to use the Extra Time limitation
> to bring the two into sync. Suppose that a character has a SPD of 3,
> then we get 5.25 BODY/turn, for a total of 50 points of Regeneration,
> which just a smidgen cheaper than the Aid, which is measurably less
> powerful.
The converse is also true, a character with a speed of 12 would get
a much greater cost benefit from aid than Regeneration. In my
experience a speed of 4 is the average speed for heroic games,
much less super heroic games where a value of 5 or 6 is more
common.
Robert, I'm going to Calgary for Christmas so I will most likely be
unable to continue our debate for a couple of days. Just because I
disagree with you on this issue doesn't mean I don't respect you as a
fellow Champions Guru. The Continous, and Uncontrolled argument is a
good one, we'll discuss it when I'm back.
P.S.
I still like the message you sent supporting time lines.
Vance Scott
Vanquisher of all foes
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 11:13:45 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Building A Super Hero World
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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At 03:25 AM 12/23/97 -0800, Captain Spith wrote:
> It would seem very simple to claim that Paranormals in the military
>are simple too unpredictable. On one hand, their powers may not be
>something that can either be mimicked or countered (as opposed to
>weapons which are available equally to all soldiers) thus potentially
>'unbalancing' a platoon or squad. Also, a paranormal cannot have
>his/her 'weapon' taken away (or at least not easily). Both of these
>aspects potentially could cause problems with discipline and/or command
>structure.
war crimes? You should state that use of supers
is a war crime, as it's impossible to detain them in a humane manner
(you'd need drugs,ect in ww2) in a POW camp. .
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 11:15:08 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: GRG: Possible Sourcebooks?
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:56 PM 12/23/97 +0200, Ori Folger wrote:
>At 05:11 22/12/97 -0800, you wrote:
>
>> Absolutely.
>> If possible, I'd recommend going the same route Hero did, in using
>>authors actually living in the respective countries, at least for the three
>>books you mention. (And cover the whole UK, not just England.)
>> A Japanese sourcebook would be a good idea too.
>
>Not that it would be very popular, or useful, but I wouldn't mind a Middle
>Eastern one.
>
>
>
I think the middle east would make for quite an interesting area as far as
religion, ect goes. but then again, the type of 'corperate mindset'
often used in describing japanese supers would also be interesting. . .
>---
> Ori Folger (Calanya)
>
>
>
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Re: Con Games
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 19:22:27 CST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> Well, as one of the players in the game, let me give you MY views on how
> it worked:
>
> Basically, we each received a handout with a picture of our character, a
> write up of our background, a vague description of what we could do, and
> a short summary of how we felt about each of the other characters.
>
> This was great, I wish ALL of the games I had played in had done this.
Heh!
> The fact that we had no HSR write ups of our characters did help alot in
> promoting role-playing. In fact, I would say that Geoff's game had the
> best role-playing if any of the games I played in at GenCon.
>
> About the only problem I had with this (and it was a very minor one) was
> that everybody was a little unclear as to what they could do. It would
> have been nice to have had a little clearer description (maybe with some
> examples) of how strong our powers were. (you can lift a van with your
> telekinesis, but not a bus.. etc)
How did the GM determine actions in a phase, and move order?
How were post-12 recoveries, et al, handled?
Geoff: care to give the "GM's" view on this? How did you handle the
missing mechanics?
> I guess there was one other negative side to this method... it wasn't a
> Champions game. From our side of the table we could have been using
> Hero or Gurps or Tunnels and Trolls rules.. it wouldn't have affected
> the game either way. I guess this could be construed as good or bad,
> depending on your goals. It worked great for immersing the players into
> the game, it didn't do anything to 'promote' Champions/Hero.
I don't know. A game system which allows for serious point balancing
for the GM, and great role-playing for the players while not being
mechanic heavy, would be a winner (my wife loves role-playing, but hates
mechanics, and doesn't like GM'ing Champions because of the intense
mechanics required...).
DonM.
--
=========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist, (217) 239-8365 =
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
=========================================================================
From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:41:59 EST
Subject: Re: Con Games
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
In a message dated 97-12-23 11:19:43 EST, geoff@omg.org wrote:
> What I liked in particular about many of these games is that they used the
> Hero System, but were extremely light on mechanics while you were playing.
> My
> psi game was like that; players didn't even get HSR writeups of their
powers,
>
> so that the mechanics wouldn't get in the way. Hopefully, they had a good
> time
> regardless. :-)
Personally, I react very badly to such... stunts... as being told to play a
character without being given a game writeup. I'd have walked out of the game
on the spot. In fact, I *did* once walk out of a Champions game at a con when
the GM tried to pull a similar but lesser withholding-of-information on me.
(My martial-artist had just punched the brick-villian, and the GM refused to
tell me how much damage got through - or even if *any* did. My character
didn't have leprosy or any other sense-reducing disad, and the GM made it
clear that this was 'normal' and not the result of any funky power of the
brick (no 'invisible power effects' on the brick's PD). So I walked.)
I look at it this way: I know myself well enough to write myself up as a
character in a suitably 'realistic' game system (e.g. GURPS). So I should
therefore know my character well enough to write him/her up in a game system
suitable to the game-world that the character lives in. If I *don't* know the
character well enough to write up such a character sheet, then I don't know
the character well enough to play him or her.
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:39:42 -0500
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: Con Games
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> Personally, I react very badly to such... stunts... as being told to play a
> character without being given a game writeup. I'd have walked out of the game
> on the spot. In fact, I *did* once walk out of a Champions game at a con when
> the GM tried to pull a similar but lesser withholding-of-information on me.
Here's a character from our adventure: would you have walked out if handed
this?
IMO, if you get enough information to understand and run the character, it
doesn't matter so much whether it's in gamespeak or natural language.
Alex Douglas
History and Personality
History:
1973: Born in San Diego, California.
1991: Entered college at UC San Diego, majoring in Biology.
1991: In a dream, uses his power and awakens to find it still
manifested. Scared, he conceals it from others, but secretly practices it when
he can.
1992: (April 3) Alex is captured on live TV using his power to save several
people trapped in a burning office building. The world is faced with
irrefutable evidence of the existence of psi powers.
1992: (May) UC Berkeley's Parapsychology Department invites Alex to work
with them; he agrees, still happy with his new found fame.
1992-1994: Alex is passed from lab to lab, as the experiments grow
increasingly and ominously biological. Alex grows inwardly concerned, but is
unable to escape the trap he has made for himself.
1995: Dr. Vaughn seeks out Alex, and invites him to form the core of her new
project. After assuring him she will not turn him into a lab rat, he joins the
Project.
The world is an amazing place -- even more so now that psychic powers aren't
just in the Weekly World News. It's an exciting time to be alive; and for Alex
Douglas, the world's first and most famous psi, things could not be better.
Alex first discovered his power in 1991, during his sophomore year at UC San
Diego. After a dream where he seemed to be standing above himself, Alex awoke
to find himself looking down on his dorm room from above. Intrigued, he
reached down into the room -- and knocked his bed across the room. Alex was a
little scared, but really much more excited than anything else. For the next
year he used his power in secret (getting cats down from trees, moving cars to
make a space -- even picking a surfer out of the ocean just he went under for
the last time. People really wondered where that freak wave came from...)
while remaining a "mild mannered" college student by day. His studies in
biology seemed a lot less interesting, but he kept at them, with only a slight
drop in his GPA. Until, in 1992, Alex's life (and the world) were forever
changed.
Alex was in L.A. for the weekend when he heard the report: the Nakatomi Tower
was on fire, and there were people trapped on the upper floors. He drove there
in a mad rush, found a nearby building, and lifted himself onto the roof to
get a good view. Looking down onto the scene from above, Alex saw two figures
visible in a window just above the flames. He reached out to grab them, and
saw the camera crew on the next building pointing their cameras his way. Alex
paused; but then the figures jumped, and he didn't even think about reaching
to save them. After all, lives are more important than his little secret. He
caught them easily -- and good thing, because the flames exploded outward just
as he did. Spectators below saw a ghostly hand outlined in fire; and the news
cameras broadcasting live were watching as well. One network had their chopper
behind Alex: within minutes, the shot of him standing in the foreground,
glancing sideways and back, then grimacing as the building exploders, his hand
curled in perfect imitation of the fiery outline, went around the world in
minutes. Alex Douglas was officially the World's First Psychic.
After the interviews, and Letterman and Leno, and those strange men in dark
suits, the serious offers started coming in. Berkeley's parapsychology lab
wanted him. Alex had a psych course under his belt (yeah, he knew what they
wanted him for, but it was nice to pretend), so he said sure. They were nice
people, but after a couple fun months they suddenly passed him on to some
place in Sacramento that clearly had a lot more money. From there, Alex moved
to Utah, and on, and on, bouncing between labs for the next three years. Most
were nice enough, but he was starting to see more and more needles, and was
beginning to fear that saws and scalpels were next. And yet, there seemed to
be no way out...
...until the letter from Jessica Vaughn. Alex had heard of her -- many of his
keepers had spoken of her expertise, and of course there was the Nobel
prize. She came to see you, and told you about the Sunrise Project: a
different order of experiment. While the workings of psi powers are important,
she said (important enough to give her a Nobel!), what surpassed such physical
concerns was the question of how society would adapt to the ramifications of
those abilities and the people who used them. Would it be an Age of
Enlightenment or another McCarthyist witch hunt? You gladly became the first
member of her team. Thus far, all of her promises have come true.
Personality:
Alex is a happy go lucky sort -- at 24, he has yet to truly face the "real
world". His psi power has brought him phenomenal fame, of the order that only
a handful achieve in a century or longer. Yet, he remains insulated from the
worst excesses, living a relaxed, carefree life within the Project. His
biggest concern is that he has not been able to use his power productively as
he used to. Dr. Vaughn assures him that the work he is helping with will be
far more useful in the long term -- but still...
Description:
Alex is a 24 year old Caucasian male, around six feet, with straight, light
brown hair and blue eyes. He is handsome in a sort of rough and ready way, and
has a boyish charm and astonishment at his own abilities that has continued to
endear him to the media. He dresses neatly, and somewhat casually.
Power:
Alex's power has two aspects. The first, his switch of viewpoint, allows him
to see the world from a point above, to the side, and slightly behind his
body. Alex does not control the location of this viewpoint, which changes
based on the size of the space he is in. Oddly, this does not actually let him
see anything outside of his body's field of vision; unless his head can turn
to see something, it will appear blank, or vague, when seeing from this
viewpoint.
The second aspect of his power is the "ghost hand". When in his viewpoint,
Alex can reach down and affect the world, with an invisible hand of great
strength and proportion. (The exact size and strength varies, being stronger
the farther away his viewpoint is.) This hand has a physical existence, and
Alex does feel (to a greatly lessened degree) sensations through it. Using the
ghost hand is no more tiring than using his real hands.
Other members of the team:
Dr. Jessica Vaughn: You are still in awe of her energy and drive -- sometimes
it's almost a visible aura shining around her head. She really cares about her
work. She's smarter than anyone else you know (Jefferson is a close second,
though he's not a scientist). You cannot think of a better person for the job
of saving the world. If she requires anything of you to further the Project,
you are ready to give it.
Jefferson Everett: Jefferson's research and his ability to reach into people's
memories have brought more psis to light and into the Project than any of
Dr. Vaughn's speeches. While Jessica knows about science, Jefferson knows
about the real world. You trust Jefferson and appreciate his experience and
insight. On the other hand...he seems strangely unwilling to talk about his
past, or about the possible uses of his power. You doubt that Jefferson would
actually abuse his ability; but if he did, how would anyone know?
Robert McNulty: You really feel sorry for Robert. The police didn't believe
his confession, but he knows that he was responsible for killing his
father. You have tried your best to coach Robert on controlling his "death
angel", but sometimes he just sinks into a funk (or a rage) that nothing can
shake. Still, his power and yours are the closest of any you know of --
perhaps in time, you can help him come to grips with its pitfalls. It was you
who tracked him to the bar on the night he quit the Project -- and while
Dr. Vaughn brought him back, it was you he thanked the most. If Dr. Vaughn
says he is good for the Project, surely the Project might do some good for
him.
Paul Johnston: Paul is a nice guy most of the time. He can be hard on people,
even Chitra -- though at least he's nice to Rob, who needs it more than any of
the others. You know that there is some kind of trouble in Paul's past, but
the Project pulled him out of it, right? He should mellow out as he settles
in. If you can help him get more into the spirit of things, the snide comments
might fade. His astral projection power seems very strange, although as a
change of perspective, you can understand it to a point.
Chitra Amaran: With anybody else that kind of mind control power would be
frightening, but with Chitra it just seems natural. She's the only person
you've ever met who you know would never even think about abusing that kind of
control. She's also the only person on the team with a family; in many ways,
she represents the ideal the Sunrise Project is supposed to establish: psis
and mundanes living and building a better society together. If you are in awe
of Dr. Vaughn's drive, you are as much in awe of Chitra's compassion and
generosity of spirit.
Mission Briefing:
OK, justification time. You knew this day had to come. You were even looking
forward to it as a chance to get back out into the world; but now that it's
here, you're a little bit nervous. The way this is all coming down...not a
progress report, but an attempt to hold onto funding. It isn't what you
imagined. But that's cool; as you've learned, the world is full of surprises!
These UN types just don't understand yet how important the Sunrise Project is
to...well, to everything. Not to sound too pompous, but to the future of
humanity. You're going to be there to stand beside Jessica and show the whole
world what you and the others have achieved. Maybe you can even talk about
some of your own ideas about proactive psi involvement in certain situations,
like natural disasters or accidents. There's a volcano erupting on Montserrat,
an island not far south of St. John. Maybe you can get the UN to approve a
little of your own "Hand"-y work down there.
Alex Douglas
Powers and Statistics
Value Stat Roll Notes
10 STR 11- 100kg; 2d6
11 DEX 11- OCV:4 DCV:4
10 CON 11-
10 BODY
10 INT 11- PER Roll 12-
11 EGO 11- ECV:4
25/10 PRE 11- PRE Attack 2d6 (5d6)
12 COM 11-
3 PD
4 ED
4/2 SPD Phases (3),6,(9),12
4 REC
20 END
20 STUN
Running: 7"/14" Swimming: 4"/8"
NOTE: Alex's normal Presence is 10; however, his staggering fame gives him an
effective Presence of 25 when making appropriate Presence attacks, for people
who recognize him. People notice when he arrives.
NOTE: Alex has a physical Speed of 2, but once in his "mindscape" can use his
powers as if he had a Speed of 4. Switching into his mindscape can be done by
Aborting a SPD 4 action.
Skills:
Survival 11-
>From many trips to the Sierra Nevadas.
AK: Yosemite National Park 12-
Climbing 11-
AK: Southern California 12-
Paramedics 10-
First Aid training, coupled with practical observation.
Spanish, fluent conversation
High school and college classes
Sci: Biology 11-
Alex has a lot of working knowledge gained in recent years.
Sci: Chemistry 8-
Sci: Physics 8-
Sci: Marine Biology 8-
KS: "Occult" parapsychology 8-
X-files type stuff; Alex knows nothing about real psi abilities other than
what's in the papers.
Oratory 8-
KS: Psi History 8-
Power
Mindscape:
-- When in your "mindscape", you perceive the world from a
point above and behind your physical body.
-- This point is fixed, and varies in distance depending on the size of the
area you are in.
-- Areas which your physical eyes cannot see often appear blank, or hard to
focus on.
-- You must already be in your "mindscape" to use the hand.
"The Hand":
-- You can reach down and affect the world.
-- The size and strength of your hand varies, depending on how expansive an
area you are in (and thus how distant your "mindscape" perspective is).
-- At its smallest, the hand is slightly larger and stronger than the largest
person; at its largest, it can topple skyscrapers.
-- The hand is invisible, but tangible, and transmits pain (although on a
greatly reduced scale).
-- Using the hand requires only a slight effort on your part.
Disadvantages:
Distinctive Features: World's First Psi (Concealable with effort, Major
reaction)
Alex's face has been on every major magazine cover. It appears with regularity
on every news show. Everyone knows who Alex Douglas is. Mob scenes form around
him. He is really that famous.
Watched by numerous scientific organizations (MorePow, NCI, 11-)
Alex has managed to escape the laboratories, but he still receives "research
proposals", and he never knows exactly who is out in those crowds...
Psychological Limitation: Seeks to do good (Common, Moderate)
If it weren't for his do-gooder streak, Alex's secret would never have been
revealed. Even before he discovered his power, he was the sort of person who
would stop to help stranded motorists, and did regular volunteer work. (He
would have liked to continue, but the disruption his appearance creates has
made it impossible.) This is his only real frustration in his life as it now
stands.
Psychological Limitation: Thinks well of others, optimistic (Common, Strong)
Alex is not stupid, but he is a little naove. Life has gone well for him, and
he remains insulated from much of the "adult responsibilities" that most
people are forced to face in their 20s. Thus, he tends toward the brighter
view of things, and of people.
Psychological Limitation: Dedicated to the Project (Common, Strong)
The Sunrise Project brings together an optimistic, favorable view of the
future (and of the psis who will play such an important role in it) and an
objective of helping the world become a better place for humanity. To Alex, it
is the only place for him to be.
Public Identity
Walls and security guards are the only way Alex achieves any degree of
privacy; his whereabouts are tracked by countless reporters and fans.
Reputation, World's Most Recognized Psi, 14-
Alex's power is one of the few which has been extensively and accurately
described in the media. Everyone knows about The Hand. (NOTE: Almost no one
understands the shift of viewpoint, although Alex has talked about it in
several interviews.)
========end of character==========
Looking at this, I note that there's a lot of game information there, but
nearly all of it is backed up with explanatory text. (We had to cut a lot of
text out of the skills section for reasons of space.)
Geoff Speare
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:56:31 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Strange Stuff
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org"
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Would you allow a Tranform that only affected one part of the
user that had to be individually targeted (such as the eyes for a blinding
attack)?
A character with CE wants to change the enviorment over one square
mile. He is a preistly type character. In oder to this this, however,
he must be on good terms with his pantheon, and the attempt must be in the
best interest of his religion. He must also go through a ritual before
hand, all of which requires chanting, intricate somantics, time, and
the proper procedures (i.e. Skill Roll: Rituals, IAF: Prayer mat, Sword,
Wand, Chalice, etc.). How would one represent this in Champions terms?
Is there a write up on the Lin Kuoi in the UMA? A villian
known as the Jade Dragon of the Lin Kuoi... If this hasn't been written
up, does anyone have any suggestions?
Any suggestions on a power that has 'no range'? For example,
a power that could affect someone's overall assets, or a charater that
could use her voice to hypnotize, even over a phone.
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:09:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Holiday Message
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Just wanted to wish everyone on the list a Merry Christmas and a Happy
(and safe) New Year!
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:10:25 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Strange Stuff
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> Would you allow a Tranform that only affected one part of the
>user that had to be individually targeted (such as the eyes for a blinding
>attack)?
I see what you're getting at, but this sort of thing is really, really
abusive. The eyes probably have 1 BODY (tops) and thus would be Transformed
by even the most trivial use of a power if it could be 'targeted' there.
Transforms work against the entire BODY (i.e. maximum BODY) of characters
for a very good reason.
That said, Transform needs more resolution in effects. Blinding someone is a
Major Effect, yes, but it's a small change to the overall body in question.
Blinding someone is not as powerful as turning them to stone, but in HERO
the two powers cost the same <go figure>.
> A character with CE wants to change the enviorment over one square
>mile. He is a preistly type character. In oder to this this, however,
>he must be on good terms with his pantheon, and the attempt must be in the
>best interest of his religion. He must also go through a ritual before
>hand, all of which requires chanting, intricate somantics, time, and
>the proper procedures (i.e. Skill Roll: Rituals, IAF: Prayer mat, Sword,
>Wand, Chalice, etc.). How would one represent this in Champions terms?
Lots and lots of limitations. I don't see the problem here. Don't you think
"Results Must Be In Religion's Best Interests" could be a ligitimate limitation?
Of course, what it's worth is debatable...
> Is there a write up on the Lin Kuoi in the UMA? A villian
>known as the Jade Dragon of the Lin Kuoi... If this hasn't been written
>up, does anyone have any suggestions?
Uh, you want to reference that remark with a source so we know what the hell
you're talking about? (IOW, probably NOT).
> Any suggestions on a power that has 'no range'? For example,
>a power that could affect someone's overall assets, or a charater that
>could use her voice to hypnotize, even over a phone.
Somebody posted a house Advantage "Based on a Sense" which basically allowed
this trick b/c the power worked via the sense itself. A dangerous idea,
though, as you could just record such a voice and presto, power-in-a-box! Or
'look at this picture', etc. etc.
Personally, I'd go for Mind Scan plus a BOECV, Fully Indirect, lots of
Increased Maximum Range power. Expensive but rightfully so. Though your
above idea would simply be:
Mind Scan, Only vs. Person on the Telephone (-1) plus Mind Control.
Another way to do this is to buy the power with enough Area Effect to cover
the whole world (lots) and Indirect. With Mind Control, the target generally
has to be able to hear the commands anyway (if not, buy telepathic). On
other powers, use a limitation to the same effect (i.e. Only vs. Those That
Can Hear the Voice).
As for affecting someone's assets, that's a matter of using skills, contacts
and other 'methods' (nuke his gold reserve, etc.). IOW, it's a plot device,
which has no defined range.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:32:39 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Too much KnockBack w
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At 03:08 AM 12/24/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
> I'd forgotten that there are still players out there that adhere so
> strongly to the "standards" of Champions. What would you people do if we
> changed all of those accepted "standards?" :D
You mean like drop all the stats to a 1-10 range, divide all point costs by
5, and make die rolls go up instead of down? Past evidence would indicate
we'd string you up like a pinata and have ourselves a barbecue. ;] ;] ;]
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:54:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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Subject: Re: Con Games
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> Personally, I react very badly to such... stunts... as being told to play a
> character without being given a game writeup. I'd have walked out of the game
> on the spot. In fact, I *did* once walk out of a Champions game at a con when
> the GM tried to pull a similar but lesser withholding-of-information on me.
> (My martial-artist had just punched the brick-villian, and the GM refused to
> tell me how much damage got through - or even if *any* did. My character
> didn't have leprosy or any other sense-reducing disad, and the GM made it
> clear that this was 'normal' and not the result of any funky power of the
> brick (no 'invisible power effects' on the brick's PD). So I walked.)
I'm actually a little puzzled by this. How would being able to feel tell
you how much pain you inflicted on the brick? I normally hint when an
attack by one of my players did absolutely no damage (Though it's usually
the result of rolling 4 1's on 6 dice or something so they kinda guess)
but otherwise I never tell people how much stun was done. A normal hit is
assumed to do something to the guy hit. If it took alot of stun I might
comment 'He obviously felt that', but that's about it.
>
> I look at it this way: I know myself well enough to write myself up as a
> character in a suitably 'realistic' game system (e.g. GURPS). So I should
> therefore know my character well enough to write him/her up in a game system
> suitable to the game-world that the character lives in. If I *don't* know the
> character well enough to write up such a character sheet, then I don't know
> the character well enough to play him or her.
What do the stats have to do with the roleplay, if the character
description is relatively clear. In my own experience in con games I'm
more likely walk out on a game that gets bogged down in stat discussions
than in one that focues on RP.
TokyoMark
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Re: Con Games
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:12:58 CST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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OK, Geoff - I saw the character sheet. How did you run the game?
When it came time for "action", how did you handle phases, actions,
etc, DEX contests for same-phase actions...
DonM.
--
=========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist, (217) 239-8365 =
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:38:07 -0500
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Con Games
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:12:58 CST
> Cc: champ-l@omg.org
> Content-Length: 635
>
> OK, Geoff - I saw the character sheet. How did you run the game?
> When it came time for "action", how did you handle phases, actions,
> etc, DEX contests for same-phase actions...
I'm getting there; I'm just waiting for a chunk of time to gather my thoughts
and type them in. :-)
Geoff
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 23 Dec 97 21:43:00 -0800
Subject: Re: Weapons & Armor (was
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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On 12-23-97 asahoshi@nr.infi.net wrote to All...
a > Len Carpenter redlion@voicenet.com 12/23/97 1:42 AM
a >
a > >LC>> I've read that part of the efficacy of the axe was its
a > >percussive effect as well as its cutting power. Where the heavy axe
a > >did not cleave through mail, its mass enabled it to crush the flesh
a > >underneath. As a matter of personal taste, I prefer to reserve the
It may just be that the ax does a lot of damage... enough that
armor just can't stop it completely...
a > >AP Advantage for the beaked war hammer and other weapons with a
a > >pick-like fluke capable of punching square holes through plate. It
a > >keeps those weapons unique in the armory. I wouldn't rule out axes
a > >of quality as having AP potential, though. <<
a > >
I think I'd prefer that, the slightly exotic weapons like that were
designed to punch through armor.
One test when conceptualizing whether an attack is AP is to think
how much damage it would do to armored vs. unarmored characters.
For instance, a pick-type weapon capable of punching through armor
would punch a nasty pick-shaped hole in the victim.. and it would
be a little nastier to the character w/o armor. A massive ax, OTOH,
might well be able to do substantial percusive damage to the guy
in armor... but substantially more to the unarmored ones. At least
that's one armchair rationale. :)
a > >MS> And crushing the flesh underneath means doing Body damage through
a > >the armor - i.e. AP attacks. We treated picks, war hammers and axes
a > >the same way, since they all had the same end result, doing damage
a > >even through thick armor. <
a >
Actually, it could be that the armor should really be Damage resistance...
a > This sounds a lot like Penetrating to me, i.e. the percussive force
a > involved in the strike does some body reguardless of whether or not
a > the armor is actually overcome (as in AP).
a >
a > Just my $0.02.
a >
Maybe... I like the idea of bring back piercing points... sorta, actually
you can build them pretty easily anyway...
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 23 Dec 97 21:47:02 -0800
Subject: Too much KnockBack with
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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To: Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria <gevaerd@laranjeiras.lci.ufrj.br>
>
> I have a ninja-like character, with a quite powerful sword: 3d6K.
> He
> has 30 STR, so a normal hit with his sword would do 5d6K, with an
> average
> of 17.5 body. The 3d6 of knockback roll has an average of 10.5, which
> give
> us an average of 7" = 14 meters of knockback. I guess 14 meters is
> more
> than half basketball court... don't you think this is too much ?
No, but the sword sure is... consider bringing it down to 1.5d - that
would make it 3d+1 w/STR... and it would average 1" of KB. And, it's
more potent than a normal sword (which would have a STR min).
> I don't think his STR is the cause of quite big knockback, because
> a punch with that STR would do no knockback on average.
Actually, you might want to take your martial art (you must have
one, right?) with the weapon element - this won't let you add
much damage, since the sword should max out with just your increadible
STR, but it will let you use the OCV/DCV bonuses and your martial
arts levels. It'll also mean your roll *another* die of KB. :)
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 23 Dec 97 21:54:04 -0800
Subject: Re: Too much KnockBack w
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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On 12-23-97 GoldRushG@aol.com wrote to All...
G > << Which exceeds the basic superheroic 12DC limit for attacks >>
G >
G > There isn't any such "limit" that I am aware of. 12DC was mentioned
G > as an
G > average in the BBB, I think, but there certainly isn't a limit...
G >
G > Mark @ GRG
G > ---
It's a de facto standard... and a very strong one at that - to the
point that it makes it hard to simulate some comics characters
that clearly exceed it (not in a mechanics sense, just that people
won't accept the character...)
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Re: Too much KnockBack w
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 1:30:44 CST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> On 12-23-97 GoldRushG@aol.com wrote to All...
>
> G > << Which exceeds the basic superheroic 12DC limit for attacks >>
> G >
> G > There isn't any such "limit" that I am aware of. 12DC was mentioned
> G > as an
> G > average in the BBB, I think, but there certainly isn't a limit...
> G >
> G > Mark @ GRG
> G > ---
>
> It's a de facto standard... and a very strong one at that - to the
> point that it makes it hard to simulate some comics characters
> that clearly exceed it (not in a mechanics sense, just that people
> won't accept the character...)
Huh? I'm with Mark on this one - where are there any "de facto standards"
in HERO System?
As far as accepting the character, it really varies - 60 active, or 60
real (I've seen that), or 12 DC. I built a weather controlling energy
projector for a campaign with a 60 AP limit, but made the mistake of
putting variable advantage and variable special effect on my abilities,
to reflect the changing use of water, electrical, fire and wind effects.
Of course, guess whose character couldn't hold their own in combat...
I have my own rating system for a character's combat and campaign
potentials, and I aim for that plus an overall character cost.
(oh, and my "PRIMUS" organization uses an estimate of that rating
in their "Supervillian Alerts").
"oh, sure, your new character, captain brick, is tough and strong.
He's got an 80 STR, and 40 rPD/rED. That's great. Course, he's
SPD 2, and DEX 8, and he moves only 3" a phase. Guess that's why
the flying supervillian dropped the Washington Monument on him."
DonM.
--
=========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist, (217) 239-8365 =
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
=========================================================================
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 02:58:02 EST
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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<< his distributor seems to be under the "Hero Games isn't available
any more, Champions is out of print" school of thought. >>
While the buyers themselves are informed (we szee to that), some
distributors have customer service staff who *aren't* informed. There's little
we can do about that.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 02:58:35 EST
Subject: Re: Con Games
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<<...the GM refused to tell me how much damage got through - or even if *any*
did.>>
As long as the GM was properly descriptive, I see nothing wrong with this.
In fact, I generally prefer descriptions over points in my games. For
instance, if the villain is smacked and has only 5 Stun remaining, I tell the
players something akin to "He seems rattled and woozy. He's coherent (i.e.,
not stunned) but unsteady. He's watching you but glassy eyed." etc.
Conversing in "point speak" takes away from the atmosphere, IMO.
Btw, as a side note: One of the best games I ever ran was a single villain
against the PCs. When the powered armor hero was stunned, instead of thrashing
him, the villain *threw* him as far as he could. Took the PC out of the fight
(because of distance, not damage), and surprised the heck out of the player.
:)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 03:08:12 EST
Subject: Re: Too much KnockBack w
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< It's a de facto standard... and a very strong one at that - to the point
that it makes it hard to simulate some comics characters that clearly exceed
it (not in a mechanics sense, just that people won't accept the
character...)>>
I'd forgotten that there are still players out there that adhere so strongly
to the "standards" of Champions. What would you people do if we changed all of
those accepted "standards?" :D
Mark @ GRG
X-Sender: fogi@mail.inter.net.il
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 10:20:30 +0200
From: Calanya <fogi@inter.net.il>
Subject: Re: GRG: Possible Sourcebooks?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:15 24/12/97 +1000, you wrote:
>>Not that it would be very popular, or useful, but I wouldn't mind a Middle
>>Eastern one.
>I think the middle east would make for quite an interesting area as far as
>religion, ect goes. but then again, the type of 'corperate mindset'
>often used in describing japanese supers would also be interesting. . .
The Middle East is a rich ground for conflicts, which are what stories are
made of. The corporate mindset is not appropiate, however. The large
coroprates are almost all government-controlled.
---
Ori Folger (Calanya)
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Con Games
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:47:01 -0800
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
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On Tuesday, December 23, 1997 5:21 PM, ErolB1 wrote:
<snip>
>Personally, I react very badly to such... stunts... as being told to
play a
>character without being given a game writeup. I'd have walked out of
the game
>on the spot. In fact, I *did* once walk out of a Champions game at a
con when
>the GM tried to pull a similar but lesser withholding-of-information
on me.
>(My martial-artist had just punched the brick-villian, and the GM
refused to
>tell me how much damage got through - or even if *any* did. My
character
>didn't have leprosy or any other sense-reducing disad, and the GM
made it
>clear that this was 'normal' and not the result of any funky power of
the
>brick (no 'invisible power effects' on the brick's PD). So I walked.)
In the real world, you would not have the slightest idea how much
damage got through someone's PD. Boxers frequently talk about how
surprised they are that one punch worked, and another didn't, even
when fighting the same person. You do not know how much damage you did
in real life, except by guesswork. When was the last time you hit
someone, and you knew how many points of STUN you did?
This is especially true of a superhero game, as two targets, one with
completely rigid armor, and one who flexes to absorb damage, might
have exactly the same PD, yet feel entirely different to your fist In
one case, the shockwave could do STUN to the target in spite of no
give to the armor at all, in the other the
failure to absorb all the kinetic energy could damage the target, but
not nearly as much as it feels like. Thus, the most your character
should know is how much damage he dished out, not how much
he did.
Regardless, that was a trivial reason for walking out in the middle of
a game, and unfair to the other players or the GM. If I had been there
and seen you walk out over such a minor point, I would have thought
twice about letting you
join one of my games, even if I agreed with you.
Filksinger
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:51:09 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Top 20 reasons to buy Champions: New Millenium (humor)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Well, after a discussion on #herochat I came up with this one:
This is tongue in cheek, and not in order. :)
In true 'Letterman' Style; The top 20 reasons to buy
Champions, The New Millenium.
20. Scan the pics into your PC and color them.
19. Makes a neat paperwieght.
18. Cool Comic, when's issue #2 come out?
17. Steal ideas from the Universe
16. Finally a version of Seeker that doesn't get tossed in the 'geek'
file.
15. Two babes, one cover. Need I say more?
14. Lots o' babes in the artwork.
13. Use for calibrating paper shredder.
12. proof that Hero is NOT the most confusing RPG on the market
11. Finally something more to waste cash on that's even more useless
than Magic cards.
10. Needed a map of San Francisco anyway.
9. Solitaire's got a cuter costume.
8. Finally a game were it's easier to kill someone than it was in
Paranoia.
7. RPG? I thought it was a new Image comic?
6. Nifty key and dial graphics to use in presentations
5. My dog ate it.
4. Aftermath was too simple
3. Cold Fuzion has been eluding scientists since 1950
2. It was the first Hero Games product I ever saw in my gaming store
1. There aren't 20 reasons to buy Fuzion.
:)
--
Rook
Super Hero Links Page:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm
Comments: Authenticated sender is <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca>
From: "Vance Scott" <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 05:11:37 -500
Subject: Unsubscribe
Reply-to: vances@sympatico.ca
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I'm going away for a few weeks, so I'd rather not have to wade
through thousands of mail messages.
Thanks Geoff.
Vance Scott
Vanquisher of all foes
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: How to unsubscribe (Re: HELP!)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 11:18:52 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Hello;
I'm copying this to the list due to the very high
number of unsubscribe posts. None of those post belong here,
and perhaps this will stop a few a few of them.
to unsubscribe send a message to
hero-request@omg.org
with 'unsubscribe' in the body of that message.
>
> Can someone please tell me the address for unsubscibing this list?
>
> (Good list- but I can't handle the volume any more)
>
> Thank you...
> Earl Kwallek - Earl@TheWarren.Mil.Wi.US
>
> A Man with a gun is a citizen;
> a man without a gun is a subject.
>
> The best Gun in the World is -
> The one that you have ready in your Hand!
>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 06:36:58 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Re: Looking for Hero players & GMs
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>NO, NO, NO. DO NOT PUBLISH PEOPLE'S ADDRESSES ON THE WEB. Do not put
>up more than zip codes, please. It is highly inadvisable to put your
>address on a list on the web. Put out email addresses and zip codes,
>but no more.
>
>If you do use zip codes, remember to group zip codes together. Around
>here, most towns have more than one.
I agree no addresses but a basic area, like the city or state, could be used
as easy as Zip codes, you could then e-mail and see if you are close enough
to get together.
Michael
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 05:10:42 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 01:27 AM 12/23/97 -0600, potroast@theoven wrote:
> >Good Evening (or Morning) all,
> >
> > I have followed this thread for some time and I will agree with 90% of the
> >replys; ADVERTISE, I'm from a small town, Tulsa OK., ever heard of it? We
> >have four game shops (that count) and only one of them have any Hero
> >Systems books and those three were dusty. Oh and by the way are you
> >reprinting anything?
>
> Tulsa? I've heard of it. Ever hear of Corvallis, Oregon? (Not unless
> you're a big fan of basketball's A. C. Green, ESPN's Harold Reynolds, or
> Nobel Laureate Linus Pauling, or have been thoroughly perusing my own
> website.) At population 45,000 (approximate), we have two game stores
> (well, really a hobby store and a comic store which happen to stock games),
> of which one (the hobby store) carries any Hero stuff of note.
I was visiting my brother who was going to school in Corvallis a few
years ago, and actually bought a supplement from, I'm guessing, that
very store. I don't remember which one it was, but I was excited that I
even found one!
Actually, Here in Portland (I'm actually just outside in Tigard), OR
there is one store which always has a rather consistent and varied
supply of Hero stuff. Anyone around here (who doesn't know about it
yet) should look for Bridgetown Hobbies/Military Corner. In the last
several years, that's where I've gotten all my Hero stuff; Atlantis,
Hero Bestiary, Atlas I & II....
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 05:35:54 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Con Games
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Don McKinney wrote:
> > About the only problem I had with this (and it was a very minor one) was
> > that everybody was a little unclear as to what they could do. It would
> > have been nice to have had a little clearer description (maybe with some
> > examples) of how strong our powers were. (you can lift a van with your
> > telekinesis, but not a bus.. etc)
>
> How did the GM determine actions in a phase, and move order?
> How were post-12 recoveries, et al, handled?
>
> Geoff: care to give the "GM's" view on this? How did you handle the
> missing mechanics?
Speaking for myself, I do this all the time; my game has just less
than half of the players either unfamiliar or unwilling to 'deal with'
the mechanics end of it. Thus, I handle all the SPD and DEXes in my
head, and tell the players how many dice to throw based on what they
tell me they want to do. If a particular attack would be more effective
than the one they choose, and their character would/should know that,
I'll mention it. The whole point of the mechanics of *ANY* RPG is to
describe actions and consequences through some sort of system. Thus it
should be fairly easy to work descriptions of actions back into the
mechanics without the player(s) necessarily having to know the system to
do so. It takes a lot of practice and hands-on experience, but is worth
it to have good roleplayers who don't like 'the system' in a game.
> > I guess there was one other negative side to this method... it wasn't a
> > Champions game. From our side of the table we could have been using
> > Hero or Gurps or Tunnels and Trolls rules.. it wouldn't have affected
> > the game either way. I guess this could be construed as good or bad,
> > depending on your goals. It worked great for immersing the players into
> > the game, it didn't do anything to 'promote' Champions/Hero.
Not directly, no, but it (a)demonstrates, indirectly, to the players
that the Hero System is NOT such a complex and insurmountable system
that someone can't handle doing several peoples' computations all at
once (i.e. the GM doing everyones' math) and (b)may encourage players to
remember the name of the game at a later time because the one they
played in was fun.
Quite frankly, after many years of playing D&D, I still have a hard
time making head or tail of *their* system, since it is secondary to my
playing Champs. The complexity issue generally has more to do with
specific familiarty than it does with actual system 'complexity'.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 07:46:20 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: None
Subject: Re: Top 20 reasons to buy Champions: New Millenium (humor)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Rook wrote:
>
> Well, after a discussion on #herochat I came up with this one:
> This is tongue in cheek, and not in order. :)
>
> In true 'Letterman' Style; The top 20 reasons to buy
> Champions, The New Millenium.
>
Beautiful, I loved it. Great. LOL!!!
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 06:02:34 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Con Games
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
ErolB1 wrote:
> Personally, I react very badly to such... stunts... as being told to play a
> character without being given a game writeup. I'd have walked out of the game
> on the spot. In fact, I *did* once walk out of a Champions game at a con when
> the GM tried to pull a similar but lesser withholding-of-information on me.
> (My martial-artist had just punched the brick-villian, and the GM refused to
> tell me how much damage got through - or even if *any* did. My character
> didn't have leprosy or any other sense-reducing disad, and the GM made it
> clear that this was 'normal' and not the result of any funky power of the
> brick (no 'invisible power effects' on the brick's PD). So I walked.)
>
> I look at it this way: I know myself well enough to write myself up as a
> character in a suitably 'realistic' game system (e.g. GURPS). So I should
> therefore know my character well enough to write him/her up in a game system
> suitable to the game-world that the character lives in. If I *don't* know the
> character well enough to write up such a character sheet, then I don't know
> the character well enough to play him or her.
Hmmm... I've never had any arguement with playing a character whose
writeup either was not known to me or made no sense to me (unfamiliar
system) as long as I had a general description of his/her
powers/abilities/skills. I think enough information should be given
that I would be able to _approximately_ write up an analogous Hero
character, but I think that requiring Full Disclosure of every niggling
detail and mechanic is excessive. At least in the case of One-Shot
games such as those at Cons.
Otherwise, the GMs would simply require experienced players only for
his/her game.
The last time I ran a game at a Con, I left it open to anybody who
had the desire to roleplay. I ended up with one player who was familiar
with the system as it was 10 years previous (but still remembered the
basic structure), and four active Hero System gamers. Two made up
characters on the spot (using only the time I had specifically set aside
for just that purpose), and two used characters they had from other
games.
Interestingly, though I had indicated a period of 6 hours for the
game, two people told me - only after 2-1/2 hours of play - that they
had somewhere else to be, whereupon one other decided to 'check out'
something else going on, 'since others are leaving anyway'. The two who
were willing to continue (no, I was unable to carry on the game with
only the two players) were the one guy who hadn't games in years, and
the next least active, and I believe next oldest, gamer of the group.
I had made it clear at the beginning that it was to be a full-length
supplement-type game, and everyone agreed, but after the first
'scenario' (it was to be a three-scenario game), the younger set just
bailed. I first though that perhaps I simply sucked as a GM, but have
come to the conclusion - through more objective data than simply my own
opinion - that that was not the case.
I wonder if there is any validity to the idea that the Role-Playing
aspect of RPGs is kibd of falling by the wayside with younger players?
I know that it only took me about six to eight months of gaming to
decide for myself that roleplaying a story was the first, best purpose
of gaming. Am I unusual? I seem to see a lot of gaming that is much
more about CharacterBuilding and PowerGaining and Competition than it is
about actual Character Development. Is it me? Is it my age?
My, I do ramble, don't I?
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:07:08 EST
Subject: Re: Con Games
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
In a message dated 97-12-24 08:10:57 EST, cptspith@teleport.com writes:
> Hmmm... I've never had any arguement with playing a character whose
> writeup either was not known to me or made no sense to me (unfamiliar
> system) as long as I had a general description of his/her
> powers/abilities/skills. I think enough information should be given
> that I would be able to _approximately_ write up an analogous Hero
> character, but I think that requiring Full Disclosure of every niggling
> detail and mechanic is excessive. At least in the case of One-Shot
> games such as those at Cons.
> Otherwise, the GMs would simply require experienced players only for
> his/her game.
In the case of an unfamiliar system, I'd consider my character to still be
"under development" - incomplete - until I *did* learn the system. For me, a
game in an unfamiliar system is more an exercise in learning the system than
an example of "real roleplaying". In the case of the GM deliberately
withholding character-sheet information, well, that's just *rude* IMO.
> I wonder if there is any validity to the idea that the Role-Playing
>aspect of RPGs is kibd of falling by the wayside with younger players?
No, I think it's a matter of forgetting how munchkin and monty-haulish we
Older Gamers were when we were in that position.
>I know that it only took me about six to eight months of gaming to
>decide for myself that roleplaying a story was the first, best purpose
>of gaming. Am I unusual?
Somewhat, IMHO :-)
>I seem to see a lot of gaming that is much
>more about CharacterBuilding and PowerGaining and Competition than it is
>about actual Character Development. Is it me? Is it my age?
I think it's you :-)
Seriously, I think that because you've concluded that "roleplaying a story" is
the "first, best purpose" of gaming, you see *any* amount of CharacterBuilding
and PowerGaining and Competition as being 'a lot.'
My own philosophy is that rpg's are a hybrid, a mixture, a braid of different
elements - wargaming and storytelling and wish-fulfilment power fantasies.
IMHO, it's pathological for a game to be "pure" in any of these elements. I
consider "avant gamer" storytelling to be just as pathetic, in its own way, as
the most stereotypical munchkinite dungeon-bash.
I've had players in my games who I've considered overly munchkin. I've also
had players who I considered to be *insufficently* munchkin. Strange as it may
sound to you, there have been times when I've had to encourage players to be
*more* munchkin-like in their gaming, to pay *more* attention to
CharacterBuilding and PowerGaining and Competition than they were.
Look at it this way: In a good adventure-type story the *characters* are going
to need a fairly strong amount of ambition ("I want to become a Jedi, like my
father"). IMHO this means that in a game intended to produce such a story the
*players* should show a fairly strong amount of ambition for their characters
as well - or else they aren't, by my lights, playing the characters properly.
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:07:21 EST
Subject: Re: Con Games
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
In a message dated 97-12-23 21:42:18 EST, geoff@omg.org writes:
> > Personally, I react very badly to such... stunts... as being told to play
a
> > character without being given a game writeup. I'd have walked out of the
> game
> > on the spot. In fact, I *did* once walk out of a Champions game at a con
> when
> > the GM tried to pull a similar but lesser withholding-of-information on
me.
>
>
> Here's a character from our adventure: would you have walked out if handed
> this?
[snip character writeup]
Given a partial HERO writeup like this one, I'd be right on the edge of
walking out. Certainly I'd protest to the GM that I considered the lack of a
HERO system writeup of the character's powers to be inconsistant with the
character story describing how much the character has practiced the powers and
has had the powers studied.
>
> IMO, if you get enough information to understand and run the character, it
> doesn't matter so much whether it's in gamespeak or natural language.
IMO "enough information to understand and run the character" is necessarily
enough information to write up an accurate character sheet in gamespeak, even
if what you've been given is in a natural language. A natural language
description is good for describing what the character looks like from the
outside. But IMO a game-mechanical character sheet is a practical necessity
for communicating what it's like to be inside the character's skin.
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:07:26 EST
Subject: Re: Con Games
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
In a message dated 97-12-24 03:05:03 EST, GoldRushG@AOL.COM wrote:
> <<...the GM refused to tell me how much damage got through - or even if
*any*
> did.>>
>
> As long as the GM was properly descriptive, I see nothing wrong with
this.
Ah, but the GM *wasn't* "properly descriptive." He didn't describe at all, not
even in natural language and not even when I pressed for a description.
>In fact, I generally prefer descriptions over points in my games. For
>instance, if the villain is smacked and has only 5 Stun remaining, I tell the
>players something akin to "He seems rattled and woozy. He's coherent (i.e.,
>not stunned) but unsteady. He's watching you but glassy eyed." etc.
And I'd be misled by such a description until I learned your GMing style - as
GM that wouldn't be my natural-language description of a character with 5 Stun
remaining.
I don't need to know exactly how much STUN the villain has left. I *do* need
to know how much STUN *I* have left - IMO any natural-language description of
how I feel is going to come up short. And when my character hits a villain, I
believe I deserve to know if the blow got through and at least roughly how
much did get through.
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:11:00 -0500
From: Bruce Crow <BCROW@cnmc.org>
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Content-Disposition: inline
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:27 AM 12/23/97 -0600, potroast@theoven wrote:
>> ADVERTISE, I'm from a small town, Tulsa OK., ever heard of it? We
>>have four game shops (that count) and only one of them have any
Hero
>>Systems books and those three were dusty. Oh and by the way are
you reprinting anything?
> Bob Greenwade wrote
> Tulsa? I've heard of it. Ever hear of Corvallis, Oregon? (Not unless
you're a big fan of basketball's A. C. Green, ESPN's Harold Reynolds, or
Nobel Laureate Linus Pauling, or have been thoroughly perusing my own
website.) <
I've heard of it. and I don't fall into any of the catagories you've listed. I
even live in Silver Spring, Maryland. Of course, my wife is from Grants
Pass which is just a shade smaller than Corvallis. And I spent my
summers between Kalamath Falls and Eugene.
>snip<
>Then we gotta find some way to get a decent exposure; White Wolf
and a couple of cyberware-type games seems to be dominating the
"eye-level shelf" in the game section, with Hero, GURPS, and such
games down below.<
I agree. The nearest game store I found with Hero stuff (in Rockville abt
15 miles away) has it in its "obscure" games section with about four
inches of shelf space worth of material. I though I had hit a gold mine
when I found it. And Rockville and Silver Spring are not small towns.
Which reminds me I've wanted to ask Michael Surbrook where he gets
his Hero Stuff. And don't tell me Baltimore. I'd hate to have to go that far.
:)
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 06:35:31 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for Hero players & GMs
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 06:36 AM 12/24/97 -0600, Michael Nunn wrote:
>>NO, NO, NO. DO NOT PUBLISH PEOPLE'S ADDRESSES ON THE WEB. Do not put
>>up more than zip codes, please. It is highly inadvisable to put your
>>address on a list on the web. Put out email addresses and zip codes,
>>but no more.
>>
>>If you do use zip codes, remember to group zip codes together. Around
>>here, most towns have more than one.
>
>I agree no addresses but a basic area, like the city or state, could be used
>as easy as Zip codes, you could then e-mail and see if you are close enough
>to get together.
With a little searching, I think one could probably find a cgi program
(probably at the Postal Service website) that would look up a ZIP code and
determine the city and state.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 06:41:48 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 05:10 AM 12/24/97 -0800, Captain Spith wrote:
>> Tulsa? I've heard of it. Ever hear of Corvallis, Oregon? (Not unless
>> you're a big fan of basketball's A. C. Green, ESPN's Harold Reynolds, or
>> Nobel Laureate Linus Pauling, or have been thoroughly perusing my own
>> website.) At population 45,000 (approximate), we have two game stores
>> (well, really a hobby store and a comic store which happen to stock games),
>> of which one (the hobby store) carries any Hero stuff of note.
>
> I was visiting my brother who was going to school in Corvallis a few
>years ago, and actually bought a supplement from, I'm guessing, that
>very store. I don't remember which one it was, but I was excited that I
>even found one!
It would probably be Trump's Hobbies, formerly on 9th Street and now at
Timberhill Plaza at the corner of Kings and Walnut.
> Actually, Here in Portland (I'm actually just outside in Tigard), OR
>there is one store which always has a rather consistent and varied
>supply of Hero stuff. Anyone around here (who doesn't know about it
>yet) should look for Bridgetown Hobbies/Military Corner. In the last
>several years, that's where I've gotten all my Hero stuff; Atlantis,
>Hero Bestiary, Atlas I & II....
When I learned of the Hero/ICE split and saw that things were going to
be unavailable for a time, I collected a bunch of cash and went to
Bridgetown to buy as much as I didn't have that I could. They seem to keep
up fairly well on the Hero side of things, and always have the latest
supplement.
Emerald City Comics and Games in Eugene was nearly as good, but they
haven't caught up on the Next Millenium/Gold Rush bandwagon quite yet.
And none of the above-mentioned stores sell Hero Plus, a situation I'd
very much like to see remedied.
Which brings me to something truly relevent to this list: Mark, how
likely are we to actually see any promotional posters coming out for Hero
materials?
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 08:44:39 -0600
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us>
Subject: Re: Too much KnockBack w
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 03:08 AM 12/24/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
> I'd forgotten that there are still players out there that adhere so
strongly
>to the "standards" of Champions. What would you people do if we changed
all of
>those accepted "standards?" :D
>
> Mark @ GRG
>
Depends- If you raised them significantly, I'd probably be less inclined
to buy your products... If you lowered them I might actually be more inclined!
For the record I usually run my C4 games as 250-300 pts, (125+Disads),
with DC running in the 8-10 range (12 being about the MAX I'll accept),
Dex/Spd Avg around 20/4 to 23/5, and almost nobody starts with combat skill
levels or really high skills (over a 14- roll is unusual)
Earl Kwallek - Earl@TheWarren.Mil.Wi.US
A Man with a gun is a citizen;
a man without a gun is a subject.
The best Gun in the World is -
The one that you have ready in your Hand!
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 06:53:47 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Strange Stuff
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:56 PM 12/23/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote:
> Would you allow a Tranform that only affected one part of the
>user that had to be individually targeted (such as the eyes for a blinding
>attack)?
Normally, a blinding Transform works normally at OCV vs DCV. If it has
to be targeted in this manner, then I'd allow a Limitation.
Officially, one would simply give -5 points for every -1 OCV, but
targeting the eyes is -12 OCV (Dark Champs, p 74), meaning that one could
get a 4d6 Major Transform for free. While potentially realistic
(technically, anyone *could* do it with a couple of fingers), this just
wouldn't do.
Just offhand, I'd give this Transform a -1/4 per -1 OCV. This would
give this Transform a -3 Limitation for working at -12 OCV.
> A character with CE wants to change the enviorment over one square
>mile. He is a preistly type character. In oder to this this, however,
>he must be on good terms with his pantheon, and the attempt must be in the
>best interest of his religion. He must also go through a ritual before
>hand, all of which requires chanting, intricate somantics, time, and
>the proper procedures (i.e. Skill Roll: Rituals, IAF: Prayer mat, Sword,
>Wand, Chalice, etc.). How would one represent this in Champions terms?
The ritual you got right; use whatever Limitations would represent the
components of the ritual. The "good terms/best interest" thing is
typically a -1/2 Limitation per Fantasy Hero, though if it's something hard
to achieve you could assign something higher.
> Is there a write up on the Lin Kuoi in the UMA? A villian
>known as the Jade Dragon of the Lin Kuoi... If this hasn't been written
>up, does anyone have any suggestions?
There are no character write-ups in UMA; they had to be moved out to
Watchers of the Dragon. Where's your reference? It may have gotten bumped
somewhere else, or the name changed (or the write-up may have been left off
altogether; at least a couple of promised write-ups never materialized for
various reasons).
> Any suggestions on a power that has 'no range'? For example,
>a power that could affect someone's overall assets, or a charater that
>could use her voice to hypnotize, even over a phone.
Affecting someone's assets would probably be Drain Wealth, Indirect, No
Range Modifier, Gradual Effect.
For using one's voice to hypnotize and similar effects, I've used a
house Advantage, Affects By Sense. This causes the Power to affect anyone
who can make a PER Roll of a certain sense on its Special Effect. The
Advantage I've been working with at present is +1/2 if the affected
character has to be in the same hex (like a Gate), +3/4 if the affected
character has to be close enough to take no PER Range Modifiers, or +1 if
the affected character only has to make an unmodified PER Roll to be affected.
This has been only marginally playtested, and probably needs
considerable further tweaking, but it's a start.
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 10:09:47 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>>>15 VPP(5), Cosmic (+2)
>>>17 1d6 Absorption, +10 max., feeds to maximum Absorption and VPP,
>>>fade 5/day (+1 1/2), only vs electricity (-1/2)
>>>
>>>Since wall sockets do damage, he could charge up quickly with this
>>>power to an absolutely enormous power level.
>>
>>Not really. Without the +2 advantage (all powers of a given SFX), he
>>shouldn't be able to absorb to his VPP. Besides, we all know that
>>absorbing to your absorption capacity is abusive, neh? :-)
>
>You don't need the +2 Advantage. You can Transfer to as many powers as
>you want at one time. You could even Transfer points to every power
>you have, simultaneously.
But, you can only have powers with an AP limit equal to the capacity of your
VPP. So it's basically impossible to Aid/Transfer a power above the AP limit
of said VPP. So in order to pull this trick off to any useful degree, you
have to Aid/Transfer to the VPP itself, which is both legally shaky (as it
is not really a power, but a framework) and most definitely a case of 'to
all powers of a certain SFX' if you do allow it.
>With the +2 Advantage, all powers get all of the points Transferred.
>Thus, if you Transfer 10 pts, and you have ten powers that it feeds
>to, then normally each power gets 1 pt, but with the Advantage, they
>all get 10.
>
>Since, using my method, he would only get 10 pts, no matter how many
>powers you create, it doesn't need the advantage.
If you transferred to two powers (setting aside that a VPP is not a power),
each gets half the points. BUT, even if you do rule a VPP to be a 'power',
it is _not_ a single power. A VPP (especailly a cosmic one) is essentially
an infinite-slot Multipower. Therefore it is basically an infinite number of
powers - not just one. And since:
"No Power in the Power Pool can have an Active Point Cost greater than the
total number of points in the Power Pool." (BBB pg. 116), for this Transfer
to be useful at all it has to raise the number of points in the VPP. Thus it
deserves the +2 modifier, b/c raising the number of points in a VPP
effectively IS raising the points on 'all the powers of a certain SFX', as
every power put into the VPP effectively now has a higher AP ceiling.
>As for the abusive part, NO DUH! This is, beyond a doubt, the most
>abusive construct I have ever created. But it is legal.:)
Not as I see the rules. Without the +2 Advantage on the Transfer, I wouldn't
allow any PC to Absorb/Aid/Transfer to a VPP. And don't forget to apportion
any of those character points across both the Pool itself and the Pool Control.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 10:28:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Wed, 24 Dec 1997, Bruce Crow wrote:
> I've heard of it. and I don't fall into any of the catagories you've listed. I
> even live in Silver Spring, Maryland. Of course, my wife is from Grants
> Pass which is just a shade smaller than Corvallis. And I spent my
> summers between Kalamath Falls and Eugene.
I should point out that 'Silver Spring' takes up about 75% of Montgomery
County. Basically, anything that's not Rockville, Gaithersburg or any
other incorporated township os 'Silver Spring'. Myself, I live in Laurel,
who's only claim to fame is that George Wallace was shot in the mall
aprking lot.
> I agree. The nearest game store I found with Hero stuff (in Rockville abt
> 15 miles away) has it in its "obscure" games section with about four
> inches of shelf space worth of material. I though I had hit a gold mine
> when I found it. And Rockville and Silver Spring are not small towns.
> Which reminds me I've wanted to ask Michael Surbrook where he gets
> his Hero Stuff. And don't tell me Baltimore. I'd hate to have to go that far.
Me? Whu ask me? (Uh... how did you know I lived near you?)
Anyway, I usually shop at a place called "Dream Wizards" which has a small
selection of Hero product. They carry darn near everything.
Hm... is this the place you're talking about?
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: Fvigil <Fvigil@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 10:35:05 EST
Subject: Re: Too much KnockBack w
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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In a message dated 97-12-24 01:18:13 EST, you write:
> G > There isn't any such "limit" that I am aware of. 12DC was mentioned
> G > as an
> G > average in the BBB, I think, but there certainly isn't a limit...
> G >
> G > Mark @ GRG
> G > ---
>
> It's a de facto standard... and a very strong one at that - to the
> point that it makes it hard to simulate some comics characters
> that clearly exceed it (not in a mechanics sense, just that people
> won't accept the character...)
I don't buy that. I've seen many campaigns where the attacks have been
larger than 12 dice. Rarely higher than 15D average though.
My current campaign started with 9-11 die attacks and through experience
most characters now have 12D or so attacks and climbing - but many of them
have the limited potential to do more right now.
For example the armored bricks move through can reach 16-17 dice, but his
OCV drops so hard that he can't hit anything but a large vehicle, a force
wall, or a suprised, stuned, grabbed or entangled character - most of which
require set up. Another character has a normal 12 die attack, but has 2 more
dice w/ 3x End, and 2 more with 5x End. Since he does not have a lot of
Endurance it means that he can usually do this about once per fight (he
knocked himself out using it a second time in our last game). Another
character has weakness, but the extra time required often limits its use.
Anyway, 12D may be the standard around you, but many people and places used
higher numbers - at least ocasionally.
fernando
Subject: Re: Looking for Hero players & GMs
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-7,14-16
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 10:49:08 EST
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>> To that end, I have been considering starting page on our web
>sitte for Hero gamers to find other Hero gamers. A "frind Hero
>GMs/players classified" listing of sorts. What do you folks think of
>that idea?
>>
>> Mark @ GRG
Sounds like a good idea to me. The only local group I know that runs
Champions is heavily munchkin, and as a woman living alone there is no
way I'm putting my address and phone number on the wall at the game
store! (Sorry if that sounds paranoid, but it's true.) I've been
trying to persuade a handicapped friend of mine to try Hero System, but
even if I talk her into it there's not much support for one-on-one
gaming.
Leah
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 11:05:19 -0500
From: Bruce Crow <BCROW@cnmc.org>
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Content-Disposition: inline
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Michael Surbrook wrote...
>Me? Whu ask me? (Uh... how did you know I lived near you?)<
Sorry, I should have explained. I saw it on your web page. I regularly
scan web pages for good adventuring ideas. I saw yours and made a
mental note to ask you, but never got around to it.
>Anyway, I usually shop at a place called "Dream Wizards" which has a
small selection of Hero product. They carry darn near everything.<
>Hm... is this the place you're talking about?<
Yes, Dream Wizards is the place. Lots of stuff. Great variety. But only a
little bit of Hero. I'm a newcomer to the areaand that was the only place I
had found. I was hoping you might know a place closer. I'm on the PG
county line so I was thinking Laurel (or maybe College Park) might have a
store you would know about. That's all.
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:47:28 EST
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Mark, how likely are we to actually see any promotional posters coming out
for Hero materials?>>
It's one of the things we want to do.
Mark @ GRG
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:09:33 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Looking for Hero players & GMs
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> NO, NO, NO. DO NOT PUBLISH PEOPLE'S ADDRESSES ON THE WEB. Do not put
> up more than zip codes, please. It is highly inadvisable to put your
> address on a list on the web. Put out email addresses and zip codes,
> but no more.
Does it matter? Once I've got a name and Zip I can find the
address anyway in one of the various phone-directories on the net. GTE
has a country-wide one available, for starters.
-Tim Gilberg
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for Hero players & GMs
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 22:29:03 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> > NO, NO, NO. DO NOT PUBLISH PEOPLE'S ADDRESSES ON THE WEB. Do not put
> > up more than zip codes, please. It is highly inadvisable to put your
> > address on a list on the web. Put out email addresses and zip codes,
> > but no more.
>
>
> Does it matter? Once I've got a name and Zip I can find the
> address anyway in one of the various phone-directories on the net. GTE
> has a country-wide one available, for starters.
>
That's why you don't use a Zip either.
Just email handle and city.
No real names, no phone numbers, no addresses.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 16:01:16 -0800
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
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On Wednesday, December 24, 1997 6:35 AM, John and Ron Prins wrote:
<snip>
>But, you can only have powers with an AP limit equal to the capacity
of your
>VPP. So it's basically impossible to Aid/Transfer a power above the
AP limit
>of said VPP. So in order to pull this trick off to any useful degree,
you
>have to Aid/Transfer to the VPP itself, which is both legally shaky
(as it
>is not really a power, but a framework) and most definitely a case of
'to
>all powers of a certain SFX' if you do allow it.
Shaky, yes. However, "to all powers of a certain SFX" is not a +2
Advantage unless _every_ one of the powers gets _all_ of the points
being added. Otherwise, it is simply a way of apportioning points.
>>With the +2 Advantage, all powers get all of the points Transferred.
>>Thus, if you Transfer 10 pts, and you have ten powers that it feeds
>>to, then normally each power gets 1 pt, but with the Advantage, they
>>all get 10.
>>
>>Since, using my method, he would only get 10 pts, no matter how many
>>powers you create, it doesn't need the advantage.
>
>If you transferred to two powers (setting aside that a VPP is not a
power),
>each gets half the points. BUT, even if you do rule a VPP to be a
'power',
>it is _not_ a single power. A VPP (especailly a cosmic one) is
essentially
>an infinite-slot Multipower. Therefore it is basically an infinite
number of
>powers - not just one. And since:
>
>"No Power in the Power Pool can have an Active Point Cost greater
than the
>total number of points in the Power Pool." (BBB pg. 116), for this
Transfer
>to be useful at all it has to raise the number of points in the VPP.
Thus it
>deserves the +2 modifier, b/c raising the number of points in a VPP
>effectively IS raising the points on 'all the powers of a certain
SFX', as
>every power put into the VPP effectively now has a higher AP ceiling.
True. However, this higher AP ceiling is not the same as giving out
the same points over and over again. It is still the same number of
points.
>>As for the abusive part, NO DUH! This is, beyond a doubt, the most
>>abusive construct I have ever created. But it is legal.:)
>
>Not as I see the rules. Without the +2 Advantage on the Transfer, I
wouldn't
>allow any PC to Absorb/Aid/Transfer to a VPP. And don't forget to
apportion
>any of those character points across both the Pool itself and the
Pool Control.
Imagine a 60 pt. Multipower pool in which all powers are at 60 AP. In
order to increase a power in the Multipower using Aid or Transfer, you
either A) have to increase the powers beyond the limit allowed by the
Multipower, or b) Aid or Transfer to the pool itself.
You can decide this one however you want, but their should be _some_
way of Aiding or Transferring to a framework, or else it opens up a
big can of worms. "I'm sorry, you can't Aid Ultrahero's powers,
they're in a VPP, and he has reached the limit." "But how can we pool
our powers?" "You can't." "Then what good is this gemstone we fought
the whole adventure for?" "Well...."
I don't know if the +2 Advantage is appropriate, but I'd certainly
consider some Advantage to be. Otherwise, a person who has already
said what powers he has in his VPP could get the same points over and
over again, but someone who didn't couldn't.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Looking for Hero players & GMs
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 18:38:10 -0800
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On Wednesday, December 24, 1997 7:05 AM, Leah L. Watts wrote:
>
>Sounds like a good idea to me. The only local group I know that runs
>Champions is heavily munchkin, and as a woman living alone there is
no
>way I'm putting my address and phone number on the wall at the game
>store! (Sorry if that sounds paranoid, but it's true.) I've been
>trying to persuade a handicapped friend of mine to try Hero System,
but
>even if I talk her into it there's not much support for one-on-one
>gaming.
>
You might try to get the game store clerk to accept messages for you,
or put up a sheet asking for contact information, and you call them.
Other possibilities include cons and PBeM.
Filksinger
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 22:02:14 EST
Subject: Seasons greetings
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Apparently-To: <champ-l@omg.org>
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At the holiday season, our thoughts turn gratefully to those who have made
our progress possible. It is in this spirit we say...
Thank you and best wishes for the holidays and a Happy New year!
Mark & Margaret Arsenault
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Looking for Hero players & GMs
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 19:05:03 -0800
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On Wednesday, December 24, 1997 10:13 AM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>
>> NO, NO, NO. DO NOT PUBLISH PEOPLE'S ADDRESSES ON THE WEB. Do not
put
>> up more than zip codes, please. It is highly inadvisable to put
your
>> address on a list on the web. Put out email addresses and zip
codes,
>> but no more.
>
>
> Does it matter? Once I've got a name and Zip I can find the
>address anyway in one of the various phone-directories on the net.
GTE
>has a country-wide one available, for starters.
>
Absolutely. People who cause trouble for strangers using their
addresses rarely pick them truly at random, or put any real effort to
find them. They find an address somewhere, on a list, an ad, etc.,
that for some reason gets their attention, and then harass them.
Generally, it is only after they locate the target's address, etc., do
they act. Little effort is used to find people; they act because it is
so easy to start. Keep in mind that the address, by being available in
a particular way, automatically gives the harasser additional
information about you. Not just address, phone number, and name, but
interests.
If your name is in a phone book, you could be picked at random, but
the odds are very much against it. If your address appears elsewhere,
the chances go up. If you have any reason to worry about such things
(gender, sexual persuasion, etc.), then you should definitely do
nothing to spread your address. A phone book is fine, but keep it off
smaller lists. This is especially true of the Internet, where the
address goes out to far more people, with much greater anonymity for
the harrasser.
Filksinger
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 23:15:42 -0500
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood
Subject: TV Champions
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Merry Christmas Everyone. May the Christ of Christmas be in your hearts.
Now on to the topic. As I was cleaning some old files I came across
material from an old Danger International Campaign I use to run. It was
based on the old British series The Champions. The 3 main characters,
one being Stuart Damon of General Hospital fame, were agents for an
organization called Nemesis. They had super heightened senses,(move over
Sentinel) super strength and speed. They also had minor telepathic
abilities. Does anyone know if there are any videos of the episodes? Am
I the only person old enough to remember the show?
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 00:53:03 -0500
From: 4boaters <4boaters@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
GoldRushG wrote:
> << Probably. Make sure that are of decent quality and of thick cardboard>>
>
> Thick cardboard? You wouldn't be able to affix the bottom flaps together. ;)
> Do you really think they need to be thicker than the 10-point cover stock we
> use on our books? Would you be willing to pay even *more* for thicker
> cardstock?
>
> As far as quality, I'm not letting you off the hook either. I'm more than
> happy to read/listen to feedback from people, but it has to be helpful and
> useful feedback. "Decent quality" doesn't cut the mustard, I'm afraid. I need
> to know what you mean by "decent quality."
>
> Sorry if I sound like a broken record, but I can't assume to know what you
> folks are thinking when you make general or vague comments. Things like "Make
> books that don't suck" doesn't really help us much. ;)
>
> Mark @ GRG
First I will say that I would not even mind paying the $4.00 if you were to make
the sets like SJ games used to. As far as quality I would like to see nice thick
cardboard with as much detail on the people (good art, buttons, pockets etc.) that
can be done on a 1" paper figure.
It would be nice even if you got permission to reprint the ones from SJ
games. They are nearly impossible to find now.
Darin
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 01:02:10 -0500
From: 4boaters <4boaters@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Champions Adventures
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Something that's been done with a fair amount of success is to just sit
> around and say, "OK, we're not going to have an adventure tonight. We're
> just going to have a barbecue in the backyard at team headquarters." Of
> course, you can substitute whatever other activity the whole group would
> enjoy -- poker game, shopping excursion, or whatever. If it's near a
> holiday time, have them observe a holiday get-together; this is especially
> fitting for Independence Day (in the US at least) and Christmas. But the
> point is that they have to interact *in character*, and in the context of
> the game. The GM portrays any DNPCs and other NPCs, but the closest thing
> that happens to an actual adventure is some minor nusiance created by a
> Hunter, or maybe some minor incident foreshadowing an upcoming scenario.
> I've seen this done, participated, and GMed it, and it's always helped make
> the characters a little more human (or whatever they happen to be) instead
> of just a bunch of stats and soliloquies.
> ---
One type of session that most of the gms in my circle do are vacation and comedy
sessions/adventures. This set up with the characters usually finding out that
they have been ignoring all of their regular haunts and friends and then have to
make it up to them. One character found out his girlfriend was cheating on him
because he had not spent any time with her. When he did he always had to run
off...etc. The entire game that night was one thing after another all with the
normal id's. If they do not have id's other than their super then it is always
embarassing to have ol mom and dad stroll in to take a tour of the new base, and
just think about all of those stories they could tell when he/she was a kid.
The other type of game is the silly game. This is best when there is a pratical
joker among the group and he can "work up to his ultimate joke." Then of course
they have to get revenge. Just wait until the entire base is transformed into
just one big fun house of pratical jokes.
Hope this helps.
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for Hero players & GMs
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 19:22:26 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> >
> >Sounds like a good idea to me. The only local group I know that runs
> >Champions is heavily munchkin, and as a woman living alone there is
> no
> >way I'm putting my address and phone number on the wall at the game
> >store! (Sorry if that sounds paranoid, but it's true.) I've been
> >trying to persuade a handicapped friend of mine to try Hero System,
> but
> >even if I talk her into it there's not much support for one-on-one
> >gaming.
> >
> You might try to get the game store clerk to accept messages for you,
> or put up a sheet asking for contact information, and you call them.
>
> Other possibilities include cons and PBeM.
>
When I put together my new group I made aflyer for the local store
that described the flavor of people I wanted, a webiste about my gaming
style in champions, and my email address as a contact point.
then I went to www.webrpg.com and used their registry listing to
track down all champions players within the greater San Francisco
Bay Area and emailed them all about the game I was forming.
I got about 20 replies totals and weeded it down to 6 who I
then met in a neutral location, a cafe; to ensure we were compatable.
Only after this does one need to hand out addresses of the
game's meeting point, and contact phone numbers.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 97 20:02:52
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Systems overloaded!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I find myself with a backlog of 1000 messages. I haven't the time to
read every one, so if you've posted something in the expectation of a
response from me, please re-email it directly to me.
Merry Christmas!
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
From: Egyptoid <Egyptoid@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 17:14:20 EST
Subject: Re: Top 20 reasons to buy Champions: New Millenium (humor)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
can I repost this to rec-ruperheroes?
:)
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 22:26:04 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> Hero Games wrote:
>
> > Here's a Christmas present for Hero System fans. I've put it into Q&A format
> > for ease of use. Happy holidays!
> > -- Steve Peterson
> >
> > Hero Games & Gold Rush Games Announce Hero System 5th Edition
> > Hero Games and Gold Rush Games are proud to announce the 5th Edition of the
> > Hero System is officially in progress, scheduled for release late in 1998.
>
> Santa you really were listening!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
Does this mean no more 'can no longer confirm or deny that'
messages from GRG? :)
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 12:38:23 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: GRG submissions query
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
okies, I have a suspicion this questions might have already been asked,
but if it wasn't, here it is, in public in case ne1 else was wondering. .
Can we send in a valid 'product release form' to you GRG folks
via electronic mail? The guidelines state that email can be used
for 'submissions', but I thought i'd better get specific confirmation
from the source. I hope i'm not wasting anyone's time, but I'm planning
to submit a product overview and I wanted to see if I could email the
thing completly, or do I have to toddle off to the post office for some
more IRC's?
Thanking you in advance (I always wanted to say that)
Happyelf! :->~
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 23:02:27 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>True. However, this higher AP ceiling is not the same as giving out
>the same points over and over again. It is still the same number of
>points.
Ah, that is where I differ, and say that it is. If I have a 10 point VPP, I
can only stick powers with 10 APs into it. I could, for example, stick 2 10
AP powers, so long as each has a -1 Limitation.
Now, if I Aid that VPP to 20 points, I can now stick 2 20 AP powers in that
pool using the same limitations. BOTH powers have seen an Active Point jump,
by the same amount, from a single application of an adjustment power. This
satisifes the definition of 'all powers of the same SFX' rather nicely, IMHO.
>Imagine a 60 pt. Multipower pool in which all powers are at 60 AP. In
>order to increase a power in the Multipower using Aid or Transfer, you
>either A) have to increase the powers beyond the limit allowed by the
>Multipower, or b) Aid or Transfer to the pool itself.
Actually, it's c) use the +2 Advantage. One of the 'costs' you pay when
taking a VPP/Multipower is that all the powers are in a way 'connected', so
actually increasing a single power may end up being illegal in some
circumstances. Reduction is another matter; neither construct says anything
about the minimum AP in a power...<shrug>. Though Draining or Transfering an
ENTIRE VPP/Multipower should also require the +2 Advantage.
>You can decide this one however you want, but their should be _some_
>way of Aiding or Transferring to a framework, or else it opens up a
>big can of worms. "I'm sorry, you can't Aid Ultrahero's powers,
>they're in a VPP, and he has reached the limit." "But how can we pool
>our powers?" "You can't." "Then what good is this gemstone we fought
>the whole adventure for?" "Well...."
Simply put, a VPP or Multipower isn't a "single" power. It's a group of
powers. If someone wants to Aid either, he should have the +2 Advantage
applied to the Adjustment Power. Then he can affect the pool itself. In the
case of a Multipower, the 'multipower pool' and each slot would go up
(prefereably in proportional amounts, but that's an aesthetic thing; it
keeps those 2 40 AP ultra slots in the 80 AP Multipower from jumping to 2 60
AP ultra slots in a 100 AP Multipower, meaning you couldn't use them
together anymore...You're better off raising the Multipower to 100 and each
slot to 50, a proportional increase) by the amount rolled. In the case of a
VPP, simply increase the VPP total and don't worry about the control cost
(arguably, it's 'another' power that would be Aided by the power as well).
>I don't know if the +2 Advantage is appropriate, but I'd certainly
>consider some Advantage to be. Otherwise, a person who has already
>said what powers he has in his VPP could get the same points over and
>over again, but someone who didn't couldn't.
It's a matter of defining SFX. IMHO, you shouldn't see the power "Aid Energy
Blast"; it should be "Aid Fire Bolts". In a way, most adjustment powers
should be aimed at a very specific SFX at the base level, a single power of
a broader SFX at the +1/4 level, and all powers of a SFX at the +2 level.
So if I buy a power I describe as "Boosting Electricity Powers", I should
buy an Aid with the +2 Advantage "All Electricity Powers at Once".
Allowing an Aid to function on a power within a VPP/Multipower without the +2
Advantage violates the rules concerning those powers (if the AP limit of
that specific power goes over the AP limit of the multipower/VPP). I know it
makes sense that it should be possible to do so, and I'd probably allow that
specific use of it, but your 'plug-himself-in-man' becomes a lot less
powerful in the process.
Example: A guy with this construct:
>>>15 VPP(5), Cosmic (+2)
>>>17 1d6 Absorption, +10 max., feeds to maximum Absorption and VPP,
>>>fade 5/day (+1 1/2), only vs electricity (-1/2)
>>>
Shouldn't be allowed, legally (and especially not ethically), b/c his
Absorption lacks the +2 which should be reqired to Absorb to the POOL
itself. But what if we have this construct:
25 VPP(10), Cosmic (+2) [Note I changed it to 10 b/c many powers have 10 as
their minimum cost]
18 1D6 Absorption vs Energy (+ 10 Cap) to a Single VPP Power (+1/4) and
Absorption Capacity [half and half], Fade Rate 5/day (+1 1/2), Only vs.
Electricity (-1/2)
Now, this guy puts 2D6 Energy Blast (minimum cost) into his VPP with no
limitations. Then he proceeds to french kiss the wall socket until he's got
a 100D6 Energy Blast. "Legally" he shouldn't be able to, as the power isn't
allowed to go over 10 AP (the pool maximum), but it makes sense that it
should work this way (a clause involving Multi/VPPs should reference that
any amount Adjusted by another power is 'outside' any AP limit). Anyway, I
as a GM let this happen. Now, this dude goes to town to 'fight crime', and
before he can lay waste to the opposition, he gets knocked off a building.
No problemo, he figures, and switches his VPP to Flight. So now he's got 5"
of Flight and lands.
Then he switches back to his EB. "What the hell?" he says. Well, guess what,
jimbo, you dumped the EB and so the Aided points went *POOF* and he's back
to square one, b/c of the way a VPP works. If he had a Multipower this might
not have happened ^_^. People with VPPs only have a certain power when they
have it, whereas Multipowered types actually have the power all the time.
Note this works the same way as if he only had an "Absorb to Absorb Cap and
Energy Blast" (requiring no advantage) - if he changed his VPP from EB, he'd
lose all those points, but I would allow him to Absorb to the EB in the VPP,
even if it exceeded the AP limit of the pool (again with the 'outside the
framework' clause that we need).
Now, after slinking away, this guy wisely spends his points on the +2
Advantage for his Absorption. Now, he goes out and absorbs 500-odd points
into his VPP structure, and then gets bored and goes out to fight crime. Now
he can use a 100D6 Energy Blast, then switch to a 250" Flight, then to a
250/250 Force Field, or ten 50 AP powers, whatever his little electric heart
desires, until his GM wises up and throws the abusive 'lil character into
the trash can where it belongs.
Anyhow, the thing I'm trying to get across is that the only way that someone
should be able to Adjust an _entire_ Multipower/VPP (i.e. adjust the AP
limit of said Multi/VPP) is to employ the +2 Advantage. This whole argument
may have been due to a lack of precision on your part - when you said
"Absorb to VPP" you may have meant "Absorb to a power in the VPP" wheras I
see this as "Absorb to the VPP AP Capacity". At the very least, if "Absorb
to a power in the VPP" is what you meant, it should at least have a +1/4
Advantage on it (Any one power of an SFX). VPPs and Multipowers simply are
not 'single powers' that you can Adjust in the same manner you would
somebody's STR.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 00:05:11 EST
Subject: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Here's a Christmas present for Hero System fans. I've put it into Q&A format
for ease of use. Happy holidays!
-- Steve Peterson
Hero Games & Gold Rush Games Announce Hero System 5th Edition
Hero Games and Gold Rush Games are proud to announce the 5th Edition of the
Hero System is officially in progress, scheduled for release late in 1998.
Q: Why put out a 5th Edition of the Hero System?
A: Rather than reprint the current edition (which we’re running low on), we
decided to take the opportunity to rewrite the Hero System rules for clarity,
fix some of the rules, and add in some of the rules that have been developed
over time. A major factor in our decision is the strong desire among Hero fans
to see a new edition of the rules.
Q: Who is working on the Hero System 5th Edition?
A: The main writer is Steve Long, well-known to Hero System fans as the author
of Dark Champions, Ultimate Martial Artist, and many other fine products. He’s
working closely with Steve Peterson, Bruce Harlick and the rest of the Hero
Games crew. All-new artwork will be created for this edition of the Hero
System rules.
Q: Who is publishing the Hero System 5th Edition, and how will it be
distributed?
A: The Hero System 5th Edition is being published by Gold Rush Games, and
distributed worldwide by them.
Q: When is 5th Edition coming out, and what format will it be in?
A: Our target is the fall of 1998; we’re shooting for a 256 page book. Price
and binding and exact page count are TBD at this point.
Q: What changes are planned for 5th Edition?
A: We plan to review all of the material that’s been published for the Hero
System since 1989 and include the best of it (rules, skills, powers, and
modifiers) in this edition. The main changes, however, will be in rewriting
the rules for added clarity, including more examples, and more detailed
explanations of how various powers work. We will not be changing the cost of
Characteristics or the basic combat rules of the game. Point costs of a very
few things may change. We’ll add more detailed writeups of some powers. There
will be a thorough, multi-level index to the rules. The exact list of changes
is not set yet.
Q: Is there a chance for my input to 5th Edition?
Yes! We’re working on a set of questions that we’re asking for everyone to
fill out, along with any other input anyone may have. We’d like to get all
input in this standard format, though, to make it easier to process all of the
data. Look for the form to appear soon on the Hero Games web site at
www.herogames.com.
A: Will all my 4th Edition Characters have to be rewritten?
No! The Hero System 5th Edition will maintain complete compatibility with the
4th Edition. Any 4th Edition character will work fine under 5th Edition rules.
Q: Should I still buy 4th Edition Hero System books?
A: Absolutely. They’ll work great under the 5th Edition rules.
Q: Will there be more rules created after 5th Edition for the Hero System?
A: Yes. As new genre books, Ultimate books, and campaign settings are written,
we’ll have to develop new rules to cover new situations we want to model.
Also, we’ll keep coming up with new rules ideas in articles and other places.
Q: Is the Hero System 5th Edition the same as Champions 5th Edition?
A: No, not exactly. In the past, Champions always included the Hero System
rules as part of the book. However, due to the size of the rules, we’re no
longer going to do that. The 4th Edition of Champions really included 3 books:
The 4th Edition Hero System rulesbook, the Champions Universe campaign book,
and the Champions (superhero) genre book. None of those three books really had
sufficient space, so we’re separating them. For campaign settings, we have
Champions: The New Millennium from R. Talsorian Games and San Angelo: City of
Heroes from Gold Rush Games; other campaign settings are planned for the
future. We’re looking at writing a superhero genre book at some point, but no
schedule has been set. The Hero System 5th Edition rule book will contain the
general rules that apply to all settings, including the power creation rules.
Genre books show how to take the Hero System rules and apply them to creating
specific genre campaigns.
Q: How is the Hero System 5th Edition related to Fuzion?
A: They are two separate game systems, though they share many basic design
concepts. In fact, if you choose the right combat options in Fuzion it plays
almost exactly the same as the Hero System, and character writeups for either
system can be used in the other system (by remembering the name changes for
stats, and a couple of simple modifiers). Hero System products continue to
come out from Gold Rush Games and Hero Plus (a division of Hero Games); new
Fuzion products continue to be released by Gold Rush Games, R. Talsorian
Games, and Hero Plus, with products from other publishers planned.
Q: What products can I use with Hero System 5th Edition?
A: Any 4th Edition Hero System product can be used with the 5th Edition Hero
System. Also, any Fuzion product can be used with the Hero System 5th Edition
since Fuzion writeups are so similar to the Hero System.
Q: What other new Hero System products are planned?
A: Gold Rush Games has a full lineup of Hero System books planned for 1998,
including adventures and sourcebooks. Hero Plus is planning a number of
electronic books for 1998, including support for Fantasy Hero, Champions, and
other genres, as well as more Ultimate books; all of them will include both
Hero System stats and Fuzion stats.
Q: Will there be software support for the Hero System 5th Edition?
A: Yes, but we’re still planning exactly how and when we’ll have software
support for the 5th Edition Hero System. Keep in mind, though, that the 5th
Edition will have few changes that would affect HeroMaker or Creation
Workshop, since very few (if any) costs will be changing.
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 00:51:42 -0500
From: 4boaters <4boaters@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Hero Games wrote:
> Here's a Christmas present for Hero System fans. I've put it into Q&A format
> for ease of use. Happy holidays!
>
> -- Steve Peterson
>
> Hero Games & Gold Rush Games Announce Hero System 5th Edition
> Hero Games and Gold Rush Games are proud to announce the 5th Edition of the
> Hero System is officially in progress, scheduled for release late in 1998.
>
Santa you really were listening!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 01:08:35 EST
Subject: Re: GRG submissions query
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< Can we send in a valid 'product release form' to you GRG folks via
electronic mail? >>
I'm afraid not. The release form requires a signature.
<< The guidelines state that email can be used for 'submissions', but I
thought i'd better get specific confirmation from the source. >>
That's true. The submissions themselves can be sent via e-mail, and in fact
that's the way we prefer to receive proposals, submissions and finished
manuscripts. The release, however, needs to be signed. :/
Mark @ GRG
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 0:10:37 CST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Well, whatever format it was in wasn't easy to use. But:
DAMN STRAIGHT! YEAHOO! OH, YEAH, OH, YEAH, BABY!!!!
Cause I'm the Midnight Gamer, baby... They said, do you want to game?
And I said, yea baby, but what's in it for me, baby? And they said,
A new edition of your favorite rules - and I said oh yeah, baby, yeah,
Cause I'm the Midnight Gamer, baby....
The Midnight Gamer what games at midnight, oh yeah...
(apologies to Tick fans everywhere...)
DonM.
> Here's a Christmas present for Hero System fans. I've put it into Q&A for=
> mat=0Afor ease of use. Happy holidays!=0A=0A-- Steve Peterson=0A=0AHero G=
> ames & Gold Rush Games Announce Hero System 5th Edition=0AHero Games and =
> Gold Rush Games are proud to announce the 5th Edition of the=0AHero Syste=
> m is officially in progress, scheduled for release late in 1998.=0A=0AQ: =
> Why put out a 5th Edition of the Hero System?=0AA: Rather than reprint th=
> e current edition (which we=92re running low on), we=0Adecided to take th=
> e opportunity to rewrite the Hero System rules for clarity,=0Afix some of=
> the rules, and add in some of the rules that have been developed=0Aover =
> time. A major factor in our decision is the strong desire among Hero fans=
> =0Ato see a new edition of the rules.=0A=0AQ: Who is working on the Hero =
> System 5th Edition?=0AA: The main writer is Steve Long, well-known to Her=
> o System fans as the author=0Aof Dark Champions, Ultimate Martial Artist,=
> and many other fine products. He=92s=0Aworking closely with Steve Peters=
> on, Bruce Harlick and the rest of the Hero=0AGames crew. All-new artwork =
> will be created for this edition of the Hero=0ASystem rules.=0A=0AQ: Who =
> is publishing the Hero System 5th Edition, and how will it be=0Adistribut=
> ed?=0AA: The Hero System 5th Edition is being published by Gold Rush Game=
> s, and=0Adistributed worldwide by them.=0A=0AQ: When is 5th Edition comin=
> g out, and what format will it be in?=0AA: Our target is the fall of 1998=
> ; we=92re shooting for a 256 page book. Price=0Aand binding and exact pag=
> e count are TBD at this point.=0A=0AQ: What changes are planned for 5th E=
> dition?=0AA: We plan to review all of the material that=92s been publishe=
> d for the Hero=0ASystem since 1989 and include the best of it (rules, ski=
> lls, powers, and=0Amodifiers) in this edition. The main changes, however,=
> will be in rewriting=0Athe rules for added clarity, including more examp=
> les, and more detailed=0Aexplanations of how various powers work. We will=
> not be changing the cost of=0ACharacteristics or the basic combat rules =
> of the game. Point costs of a very=0Afew things may change. We=92ll add m=
> ore detailed writeups of some powers. There=0Awill be a thorough, multi-l=
> evel index to the rules. The exact list of changes=0Ais not set yet.=0A=
> =0AQ: Is there a chance for my input to 5th Edition?=0AYes! We=92re worki=
> ng on a set of questions that we=92re asking for everyone to=0Afill out, =
> along with any other input anyone may have. We=92d like to get all=0Ainpu=
> t in this standard format, though, to make it easier to process all of th=
> e=0Adata. Look for the form to appear soon on the Hero Games web site at=
> =0Awww.herogames.com.=0A=0AA: Will all my 4th Edition Characters have to =
> be rewritten?=0ANo! The Hero System 5th Edition will maintain complete co=
> mpatibility with the=0A4th Edition. Any 4th Edition character will work f=
> ine under 5th Edition rules.=0A=0AQ: Should I still buy 4th Edition Hero =
> System books?=0AA: Absolutely. They=92ll work great under the 5th Edition=
> rules.=0A=0AQ: Will there be more rules created after 5th Edition for th=
> e Hero System?=0AA: Yes. As new genre books, Ultimate books, and campaign=
> settings are written,=0Awe=92ll have to develop new rules to cover new s=
> ituations we want to model.=0AAlso, we=92ll keep coming up with new rules=
> ideas in articles and other places.=0A=0AQ: Is the Hero System 5th Editi=
> on the same as Champions 5th Edition?=0AA: No, not exactly. In the past, =
> Champions always included the Hero System=0Arules as part of the book. Ho=
> wever, due to the size of the rules, we=92re no=0Alonger going to do that=
> . The 4th Edition of Champions really included 3 books:=0AThe 4th Edition=
> Hero System rulesbook, the Champions Universe campaign book,=0Aand the C=
> hampions (superhero) genre book. None of those three books really had=0As=
> ufficient space, so we=92re separating them. For campaign settings, we ha=
> ve=0AChampions: The New Millennium from R. Talsorian Games and San Angelo=
> : City of=0AHeroes from Gold Rush Games; other campaign settings are plan=
> ned for the=0Afuture. We=92re looking at writing a superhero genre book a=
> t some point, but no=0Aschedule has been set. The Hero System 5th Edition=
> rule book will contain the=0Ageneral rules that apply to all settings, i=
> ncluding the power creation rules.=0AGenre books show how to take the Her=
> o System rules and apply them to creating=0Aspecific genre campaigns.=0A=
> =0AQ: How is the Hero System 5th Edition related to Fuzion?=0AA: They are=
> two separate game systems, though they share many basic design=0Aconcept=
> s. In fact, if you choose the right combat options in Fuzion it plays=0Aa=
> lmost exactly the same as the Hero System, and character writeups for eit=
> her=0Asystem can be used in the other system (by remembering the name cha=
> nges for=0Astats, and a couple of simple modifiers). Hero System products=
> continue to=0Acome out from Gold Rush Games and Hero Plus (a division of=
> Hero Games); new=0AFuzion products continue to be released by Gold Rush =
> Games, R. Talsorian=0AGames, and Hero Plus, with products from other publ=
> ishers planned.=0A=0AQ: What products can I use with Hero System 5th Edit=
> ion?=0AA: Any 4th Edition Hero System product can be used with the 5th Ed=
> ition Hero=0ASystem. Also, any Fuzion product can be used with the Hero S=
> ystem 5th Edition=0Asince Fuzion writeups are so similar to the Hero Syst=
> em.=0A=0AQ: What other new Hero System products are planned?=0AA: Gold Ru=
> sh Games has a full lineup of Hero System books planned for 1998,=0Ainclu=
> ding adventures and sourcebooks. Hero Plus is planning a number of=0Aelec=
> tronic books for 1998, including support for Fantasy Hero, Champions, and=
> =0Aother genres, as well as more Ultimate books; all of them will include=
> both=0AHero System stats and Fuzion stats.=0A=0AQ: Will there be softwar=
> e support for the Hero System 5th Edition?=0AA: Yes, but we=92re still pl=
> anning exactly how and when we=92ll have software=0Asupport for the 5th E=
> dition Hero System. Keep in mind, though, that the 5th=0AEdition will hav=
> e few changes that would affect HeroMaker or Creation=0AWorkshop, since v=
> ery few (if any) costs will be changing.=0A
--
=========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist, (217) 239-8365 =
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
=========================================================================
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 01:11:46 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:10 AM 12/26/97 CST, Don McKinney wrote:
>Well, whatever format it was in wasn't easy to use. But:
>
>DAMN STRAIGHT! YEAHOO! OH, YEAH, OH, YEAH, BABY!!!!
>
>Cause I'm the Midnight Gamer, baby... They said, do you want to game?
>And I said, yea baby, but what's in it for me, baby? And they said,
>A new edition of your favorite rules - and I said oh yeah, baby, yeah,
>Cause I'm the Midnight Gamer, baby....
>The Midnight Gamer what games at midnight, oh yeah...
>
>(apologies to Tick fans everywhere...)
>
>
>DonM.
So I says "Tell me I'm wrong!" and he says "I can't, Baby, 'cause you're not!"
Boom, Baby, Boom!
Scott
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 01:22:32 EST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
In a message dated 97-12-26 00:15:51 EST, you write:
<< Here's a Christmas present for Hero System fans. I've put it into Q&A
format
for ease of use. Happy holidays!
-- Steve Peterson
Hero Games & Gold Rush Games Announce Hero System 5th Edition
Hero Games and Gold Rush Games are proud to announce the 5th Edition of the
Hero System is officially in progress, scheduled for release late in 1998. >>
Thank you Santa!!!!! Thank you Steve/Hero Games/Gold Rush!!!!!!
Will the eagerly anticipated 5th ed contain the answers to such burning
questions as the "Great Linked Debate", whether Transform can add character
points, or if you can Teleport to a place you can see on the televison screen,
etc? Or am I getting ahead of myself? Hmm, I think I'm almost giddy... :)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 01:27:38 -0500
From: 4boaters <4boaters@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Lesson in humility (and irony)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Curtis Gibson wrote:
> A bit a background then the situation.
>
> The GM ran (at my request) a major plot for my character a while ago. My
> character was a Martial Artist with 'Darkforce' powers (reminescent of
> Marvel's). It was played that she was killed, brought back, got
> possessed by the intelligence in her powers, went psycho, got depowered,
> put in jail, pardoned and is now a strait MA superhero. I GMed the two
> sessions where Black Cat (my HERO) was psycho. I built a pretty
> obnoxious version of her, with GM approval, to be a challange for the
> team. All this was about 6-8 months ago. There was also, a bit later, a
> plot involving a clone of one of the heros.
>
> Last nights adventure... We were investigation a series of murders,
> obviously Super; killing normals. A number of the powers could be
> similar to those that the team had. The final murder, the person was
> killed in a very distinctive way (the life was sucked out, and left a
> dessicated shell). This has been seen before, when Cat was psycho (she
> killed someone that way then). We then thought that someone cloned Cat
> with genetic material prior to when she was depowered. The team
> (consisting of 6 heroes) go investigate. Two of them are dropped in
> seconds. We get out of there, reconsider and go back in. Again by
> segment three half the group had been nuetrilized. Then we got lucky,
> and got in a few good shots, and had one of the nastiest fights we had
> ever had (it gave us a harder time than the low end Destroyer). It turns
> out the darkforce that my character had, had gotten it's own ability to
> move and act, rather than doing through a person.
>
> After the fight I asked about the monstrosity the GM built and was
> informed "I didn't built it, you did. I just used your writeup of the
> psycho Cat and added a few things for Special Effects." oops.
>
> Now, you tell me, is it fair to use a that thing I built (a little, no
> a lot munchkin) back on us. 8)
> --
> -Mhoram
> Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
> two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
In one of our campaigns one of our worst enemies was a writer (designed on
the player of one of the heroes) The villians would take his death traps
and expand them enough to work even when we had read the novels. Most of
the sessions ended with a "thanks Bob" after we just barely survived,
although I must say it was fun for all.
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 01:29:38 -0500
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood
Subject: Re: Looking for Hero players & GMs
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Brian Wong wrote:
> > >
> > >Sounds like a good idea to me. The only local group I know that runs
> > >Champions is heavily munchkin, and as a woman living alone there is
> > no
> > >way I'm putting my address and phone number on the wall at the game
> > >store! (Sorry if that sounds paranoid, but it's true.) I've been
> > >trying to persuade a handicapped friend of mine to try Hero System,
> > but
> > >even if I talk her into it there's not much support for one-on-one
> > >gaming.
> > >
> > You might try to get the game store clerk to accept messages for you,
> > or put up a sheet asking for contact information, and you call them.
> >
> > Other possibilities include cons and PBeM.
> >
> When I put together my new group I made aflyer for the local store
> that described the flavor of people I wanted, a webiste about my gaming
> style in champions, and my email address as a contact point.
> then I went to www.webrpg.com and used their registry listing to
> track down all champions players within the greater San Francisco
> Bay Area and emailed them all about the game I was forming.
> I got about 20 replies totals and weeded it down to 6 who I
> then met in a neutral location, a cafe; to ensure we were compatable.
>
> Only after this does one need to hand out addresses of the
> game's meeting point, and contact phone numbers.
You may also try a local university. Many have gaming clubs and provide a
neutral place to play. If anyone is in the Akron Ohio area and is free on
Saturdays at 7:00pm meet in the upper Chuckery of Gardner Student Center of
the University of Akron, for Champions.
Kev
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 02:09:55 EST
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< Santa you really were listening!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>
You folks have really got to learn to trust me. ;)
Btw, I can hereby confirm -- not deny -- the development of a 5th Edition
Hero System! :D
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 02:09:57 EST
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< Will the eagerly anticipated 5th ed contain the answers to such burning
questions as the "Great Linked Debate", whether Transform can add character
points, or if you can Teleport to a place you can see on the televison screen,
etc?>>
Be sure you complete and submit the questionaire, coming soon to a Hero
games web page near you!
Mark @ GRG
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 23:10:21 -0800
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Thursday, December 25, 1997 7:39 PM, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>True. However, this higher AP ceiling is not the same as giving out
>>the same points over and over again. It is still the same number of
>>points.
>
>Ah, that is where I differ, and say that it is. If I have a 10 point
VPP, I
>can only stick powers with 10 APs into it. I could, for example,
stick 2 10
>AP powers, so long as each has a -1 Limitation.
>
>Now, if I Aid that VPP to 20 points, I can now stick 2 20 AP powers
in that
>pool using the same limitations. BOTH powers have seen an Active
Point jump,
>by the same amount, from a single application of an adjustment power.
This
>satisifes the definition of 'all powers of the same SFX' rather
nicely, IMHO.
>
Try this. I have a 10 pt. VPP, and I put 2 5 pt powers into it, with
no Limitations at all. Now, I put 10 pts into the VPP. Both powers go
up by 5 pts, to a maximum of 10 _total_.
So it does get a bit hairier than your example indicates. However,
after rereading the various
Adjustment power descriptions, I have decided to go with your
recommendation. +2 Advantage is required, but should be allowed.
With a BIIIIIIIIIIG stopsign.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 23:34:12 -0800
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Thursday, December 25, 1997 9:52 PM, Firelynx16 wrote:
<snip>
>
>Thank you Santa!!!!! Thank you Steve/Hero Games/Gold Rush!!!!!!
>
>Will the eagerly anticipated 5th ed contain the answers to such
burning
>questions as the "Great Linked Debate", whether Transform can add
character
>points, or if you can Teleport to a place you can see on the
televison screen,
>etc? Or am I getting ahead of myself? Hmm, I think I'm almost
giddy... :)
>
While we're at it, how about rules allowing safe blind teleportation.
You say, "I want to teleport five miles north", and you arrive in an
open area five miles north.
Not to mention the ability to teleport from the US to Australia for a
reasonable cost.
Filksinger
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 00:09:55 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
What Lizard wants to see:
The Spirit rules fully integrated into the system.
A few new powers to handle any existing powers which require
ludicrously baroque contructs to make function (such as
Slipperiness).
The environemtn rules, or something very much like them, from Almanac
II.
MORE SKILLS! Let's not lump everything under Science/Professional
Skill.
There's plenty of skills which could be split out and given more
detail.
Better weapon rules. The OCV/DCV rules work great for
superheroes;they work less well for Heroic level games, where it's
ludicrously easy to become an expert in dozens of weapons. (2 points
for a broad group, 5 points for a combat skill level or two, and
presto -- master warrior.)
More diffrentiation among low-point characters. Reasons to avoid the
current point breaks (3,5,8) with a use for each point of each
attribute.
UMA manuever design rules (or a stripped down version) folded into
the main rules.
Uhm...some other stuff, but it's late and I'm tired.
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=XMdP
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 00:11:26 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: San Francisco Heroes?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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Looking to join any game under Hero system in the SF area, provided
it isn't too Munchkin, or, even better, will RUN a game under the
Hero system (prolly Heroic, not superheroic) if I can find 3-4
willing players.
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X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 03:04:18 -0600
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us>
Subject: Shapeshifting (again!)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Way back in my last campaign (which died hideously) I had a player who
wanted the power to change into any animal (ala Changeling/Beast Boy of
Teen Titans fame), having the Stats and abilities of the animal form
(except human INT/EGO)
I could not for the life of me see anyway to do this at a reasonable point
level, and have been bothered by this ever since...
Since then I have come up with two possible constructs for doing this
power, but both feel kinda sleazy to me... so I would like some input from
the board on this.
The simple way is to buy:
75 Multiform
+1/4: Variable SFX: Any natural animal form
or:
60+ Variable Power Pool
40 Control Cost
+1: No Skill Roll Required
-1/2: Only to buy various multiforms
Both of these constructs assume a 300 pt character that can become any
animal up to 300 pts.
In both cases I charged the more expensive cost (1 per 5 pts) for the
Multiform
power, simply because of the versitality of the power...
The question is, which of these seems like the better way to do this to you?
Or do you have some other way?
Hopefully this post will generate some decent answers now that I've given
some examples of how I was planning to tackle the problem...
+-------------------------+-------------------------------------+
|Earl A Kwallek | You have the Right to Remain Silent |
|"Student of Everything" | Anything you say WILL be misquoted |
|Earl@TheWarren.Mil.Wi.Us | and used against you... |
+-------------------------+-------------------------------------+
From: Doc Weird <DocWeird@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 04:08:04 EST
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
As if the sudden ---I CAN NO LONGER CONFIRM OR DENY--- comments weren't
enough...................
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 04:29:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: [GRG] Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> As if the sudden ---I CAN NO LONGER CONFIRM OR DENY--- comments weren't
> enough...................
Actually, I think Mark needs to work on his 'I can neither confirm nor
deny' statements.
Just using that phrase alone kinda gives away that they are thinking about
something or they would just deny it.
It would be better if Mark said stuff like:
"We can neither confirm nor deny that at a meeting in Luca Pizza yesterday
around noon, the idea of doing a 5th ed. of Champions was brought up and
approved. Nor can we confirm, or deny, that an unnamed member of Hero
Games took time off from working for WotC to meet with, and hire, Jim Lee
of Image to do the cover for the 5th ed. Champions we earlier neither
confirmed nor denied. Finally, we can neither confirm nor deny that Hero
Games has asked us to neither confirm, nor deny, that a 5th Ed. of
Champions is being worked on. So if you hear these rumors, don't ask us
about them. We can neither confirm nor deny."
:)
TokyoMark
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 20:06:14 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:34 PM 12/25/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>Not to mention the ability to teleport from the US to Australia for a
>reasonable cost.
>
>Filksinger
>
>
How about just sending MAIL from australia to
the US at a reasonable cost *j/k*
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 07:27:16 -0500
From: 4boaters <4boaters@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting (again!)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Earl Kwallek wrote:
> Way back in my last campaign (which died hideously) I had a player who
> wanted the power to change into any animal (ala Changeling/Beast Boy of
> Teen Titans fame), having the Stats and abilities of the animal form
> (except human INT/EGO)
>
> I could not for the life of me see anyway to do this at a reasonable point
> level, and have been bothered by this ever since...
>
> Since then I have come up with two possible constructs for doing this
> power, but both feel kinda sleazy to me... so I would like some input from
> the board on this.
>
> The simple way is to buy:
>
> 75 Multiform
> +1/4: Variable SFX: Any natural animal form
>
> or:
>
> 60+ Variable Power Pool
> 40 Control Cost
> +1: No Skill Roll Required
> -1/2: Only to buy various multiforms
>
> Both of these constructs assume a 300 pt character that can become any
> animal up to 300 pts.
> In both cases I charged the more expensive cost (1 per 5 pts) for the
> Multiform
> power, simply because of the versitality of the power...
>
> The question is, which of these seems like the better way to do this to you?
> Or do you have some other way?
>
> Hopefully this post will generate some decent answers now that I've given
> some examples of how I was planning to tackle the problem...
>
> +-------------------------+-------------------------------------+
> |Earl A Kwallek | You have the Right to Remain Silent |
> |"Student of Everything" | Anything you say WILL be misquoted |
> |Earl@TheWarren.Mil.Wi.Us | and used against you... |
> +-------------------------+-------------------------------------+
Hopefully this will help, we have a shapeshifter in our current campaign and
although I am not the official gm most of the characters go by me first. I know
that she is built with a variable pool. The only thing that we have found is
that when she tries to change into something that is out of the range of her
pool she is severly weaker than the real creature. I think that the one thing
that worked was the fact that the player understood that this was going to be a
character that would get better in time. When she first started playing she was
very limited (this is a fantasy campaign afterall) but after some time and with
a reasonable learning curve of her own abilities it worked out very well. As
far as the actual mechanics and how it worked out in the game, the pool was very
smooth. We never had too many problems with it, and the player is a new
roleplayer period. She had no problem at all learning what she could do with
the pool.
If you have any specific questions I will try to answer them as best as I can.
Darin
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 07:34:51 -0500
From: 4boaters <4boaters@ibm.net>
Subject: Supplement help
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I am looking for an old supplement I believe that it was called
Coreallis Effect or something like that. I have never seen it, but two
of my gms have suggested it.
Does anyone have this, or no where I can get a copy?
Darin
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 06:29:03 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting (again!)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 03:04 AM 12/26/97 -0600, Earl Kwallek wrote:
>Way back in my last campaign (which died hideously) I had a player who
>wanted the power to change into any animal (ala Changeling/Beast Boy of
>Teen Titans fame), having the Stats and abilities of the animal form
>(except human INT/EGO)
>
>I could not for the life of me see anyway to do this at a reasonable point
>level, and have been bothered by this ever since...
>
> Since then I have come up with two possible constructs for doing this
>power, but both feel kinda sleazy to me... so I would like some input from
>the board on this.
>
>The simple way is to buy:
>
> 75 Multiform
> +1/4: Variable SFX: Any natural animal form
>
>or:
>
> 60+ Variable Power Pool
> 40 Control Cost
> +1: No Skill Roll Required
> -1/2: Only to buy various multiforms
>
>Both of these constructs assume a 300 pt character that can become any
>animal up to 300 pts.
>In both cases I charged the more expensive cost (1 per 5 pts) for the
>Multiform
>power, simply because of the versitality of the power...
>
>The question is, which of these seems like the better way to do this to you?
>Or do you have some other way?
>
>Hopefully this post will generate some decent answers now that I've given
>some examples of how I was planning to tackle the problem...
I think the usual way to do this is with Shape Shift, and a VPP to
represent the Powers that any given shape provides.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 06:57:14 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:05 AM 12/26/97 EST, Hero Games wrote:
>Here's a Christmas present for Hero System fans. I've put it into Q&A
format>for ease of use. Happy holidays!>>-- Steve Peterson>>Hero Games
& Gold Rush Games Announce Hero System 5th Edition>Hero Games and Gold
Rush Games are proud to announce the 5th Edition of the>Hero System is
officially in progress, scheduled for release late in 1998.
A 5th Edition Hero announcement, *and* something clearly and concisely
written from Steve Peterson! Two treats at once! Wow! ;-]
>Q: Who is working on the Hero System 5th Edition?>A: The main writer is
Steve Long, well-known to Hero System fans as the author>of Dark
Champions, Ultimate Martial Artist, and many other fine products.
He’s>working closely with Steve Peterson, Bruce Harlick and the rest of
the Hero>Games crew. All-new artwork will be created for this edition of
the Hero>System rules.
Now, *this* should prove interesting. If there's anyone we can trust to
make the rules clear, it's a lawyer.
>Q: Is there a chance for my input to 5th Edition?>Yes! We’re working on
a set of questions that we’re asking for everyone to>fill out, along with
any other input anyone may have. We’d like to get all>input in this
standard format, though, to make it easier to process all of the>data.
Look for the form to appear soon on the Hero Games web site
at>www.herogames.com.
I'll be watching regularly. Personally, I'd be willing to take small
wagers that it'll be on the next update in early January. :-]
>Q: Should I still buy 4th Edition Hero System books?>A: Absolutely.
They’ll work great under the 5th Edition rules.
Considering I'm currently writing three of them, I'm glad to see this.
:-]
>Q: What other new Hero System products are planned?>A: Gold Rush Games
has a full lineup of Hero System books planned for 1998,>including
adventures and sourcebooks. Hero Plus is planning a number of>electronic
books for 1998, including support for Fantasy Hero, Champions, and>other
genres, as well as more Ultimate books; all of them will include both>Hero
System stats and Fuzion stats.
I wish we could've gotten a few more specifics. I mean, most of the
folks on the list already know about work on San Angelo, The Ultimate Super
Vehicle, PRIMUS, Kazei 5, Northwest Champions, and VOICE (though the latter
two are admittedly only in the planning stages), but what else?
>Q: Will there be software support for the Hero System 5th Edition?>A:
Yes, but we’re still planning exactly how and when we’ll have
software>support for the 5th Edition Hero System. Keep in mind, though,
that the 5th>Edition will have few changes that would affect HeroMaker or
Creation>Workshop, since very few (if any) costs will be changing.
And the nice part about this is, CW is reportedly very easily
customized. :-]
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 10:20:48 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting (again!)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>Way back in my last campaign (which died hideously) I had a player who
>wanted the power to change into any animal (ala Changeling/Beast Boy of
>Teen Titans fame), having the Stats and abilities of the animal form
>(except human INT/EGO)
>
>I could not for the life of me see anyway to do this at a reasonable point
>level, and have been bothered by this ever since...
Depends what you call a 'reasonable' point level. For example:
20 Shapeshift: Any Terrestrial Animal, 0 END (+1/2), Side Effects:
Disadvantages of Assumed Form (-1/2)
50 Multipower: Shapeshifting [75], Must be Appropriate to Form (-1/2)
5u A.) 50 pip Growth, 0 END (+1/2)
5u B.) 50 pip Shrinking, 0 END (+1/2)
50 Variable Power Pool: Animal Powers [50]
33 VPP Control: No Skill Roll (+1), Must be Appropriate to Form (-1/2)
---
163
This'll get pretty much anything from a whale to a mosquito, especially with
a lenient GM (who lets Life Supports and Senses in a VPP). 163 points may
seem like a lot (and it is, to a 250 point character), but it's not that
much, in the grand scheme of things. You could start the character off with
less growth/shrinking and a slightly smaller VPP and build up to it as you
get more experience.
Note that when you shapeshift into an animal, you don't _have_ to emulate
every little thing in the HERO Bestiary. If you absolutely feel you must,
grab a bigger power pool.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: "Roger A. Wesson, Jr." <uraeus@bunt.com>
Subject: Soliciting Ideas
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 16:32:41 +0100
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Hi, I'm new to the list and would like to solicit some ideas
and comments on some powers that I'm having trouble
building.
1)The first is an area-wide Time Stop. I envision the character
activating the power, and all physical activity stops within the
area of effect. And it would only affect those in the area at the
time of activation; those entering area during the duration are
not affected. Everyone affected would only be able to interact
with the world via mental/spiritual means; but no physical
movement at all.
a)I thought of using a Movement Drain, but that wouldn't stop
actions such as letting off EBs, etc.
b)I also thought of using Transform (Major:physical paralysis)
with the Continuing Charge(s) disadv., but in order for it to
overpower normals (Transform roll 2xtarget's BODY) I would
need a minimum Transform of 4d6, and something on the order
of 8d6 - 10d6 for a consistently effective result of 20 BODY or
better.
2)I am designing a character with fine control over gravity. One
attack that I want to create is a Gravity Trap. GravityGuy
wants to create 3+ small gravity wells placed equidistantly around
the target. All the grav points then exert an equal amount of pull
on tte target in 3+ directions at once, effectively immobilizing the
target. I want the target to be able to (slowly) extract himself using
sheer muscle power if he has enough STR (imagine trying to move
away from a breech in an aircraft/spacecraft hull). The STR of the
grav points would dissipate over a few Turns. And, this gravity trap
would only affect the whatever was inside the 3+ points; ie no grav
distortion outside of the grav points' circumference.
a)I thought, naturally, of Entangle, but none of the options seem to
cover the effect I want.
b)some sort of Grab attack with TK
c)a Movement Drain
d)an Ablative Force Wall that englobes the target
Unless I can get any better ideas I will probably use the Movement
Drain (with the Adv:ALL physical movement) for the Time Stop and
the Ablative Force Wall for the Gravity Trap.
All comments and suggestions are welcome.
Thanks,
Roger
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 10:47:28 -0500
From: Bruce Crow <BCROW@cnmc.org>
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Content-Disposition: inline
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Thur, 25 Dec. 1997, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>DW has a bunch (or did) of Hero backstock on a table to your right as
you come in the store. I'm pretty positive they can special order almost
anything. There is a Hobby Works down the street in the same shopping
mall as the CompUSA, they may have some Hero Stuff and will special
order as well.<
>I go to a Hobby Works in Laurel, but they don't carry much in the way of
Hero anymore (no demand, or don't know where to get it).
Alternate Universe in Columbia has some Fuzion stuff and a little Hero
(old stuff).<
There is also the Barbarian Bookstore in Wheaton, which has rpg stuff
though it (the whole store) is so unorganized I couldn't tell you what they
had and what they didn't. The clerk was no help either. It was more like
my brother's garage than a bookstore. I walked out frustrated and have
never been back. Some day when I have several hours and nothing to
do....
But I usually enjoy looking through the rpg rack of a good store, even if
there is no Hero stuff. I like seeing what everyone else is putting out.
Thanks for the info.
Just having the name of the store is helpful. The yellow pages never
seem to say which book stores/hobby shops/comic shops have what I'm
looking for. And calling them is pointless. "Yes, we have role playing
games" only to discover (after a half hour tripo across town) that it
consists of two copies of Planescape, old character sheets and some
"pick your own adventure" books.
>I don't know of a decent game store in College Park. I do know that
Closet of Comics is a tre cool comics store. That's were I get all my
manga (and talk HK action films on Sundays).<
>So, what sort of gaming do you do?<
Mostly Fantasy Hero & Champions. What my group in California did was
play FH and Champions game on alternate weeks. I ran the FH game and
someone else ran Champions. In Maryland, not much. Life caught up with
me. Got a job, got married, a daughter and one on the way. I do a little
PBEM with some of my friends from previous campaignsand that's about
it.
I don't do much with anime or magna. When I lived in Hong Kong though, I
did get into a chinese comic called "Tin Ha", which roughly translates as
"Under Heaven". It was in chinese and I used it to practice my characters
(written chinese). I also wanted to use the story line, (as much as I could
understand. It was in chinese after all) as the basis for an oriental
fantasy campaign. It was based in mythical china (three kingdoms period,
I think). But the campaign never got off the ground. I didn't continue
reading it because I never saw an english version (let alone a chinese
version) in the states. Maybe I should try Closet of Comics.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 07:48:43 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Soliciting Ideas
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 04:32 PM 12/26/97 +0100, Roger A. Wesson, Jr. wrote:
> Hi, I'm new to the list and would like to solicit some ideas
>and comments on some powers that I'm having trouble
>building.
>
> 1)The first is an area-wide Time Stop. I envision the character
>activating the power, and all physical activity stops within the
>area of effect. And it would only affect those in the area at the
>time of activation; those entering area during the duration are
>not affected. Everyone affected would only be able to interact
>with the world via mental/spiritual means; but no physical
>movement at all.
> a)I thought of using a Movement Drain, but that wouldn't stop
>actions such as letting off EBs, etc.
> b)I also thought of using Transform (Major:physical paralysis)
>with the Continuing Charge(s) disadv., but in order for it to
>overpower normals (Transform roll 2xtarget's BODY) I would
>need a minimum Transform of 4d6, and something on the order
>of 8d6 - 10d6 for a consistently effective result of 20 BODY or
>better.
For this, use Mental Paralysis from The Ultimate Mentalist, with AE:
Radius. The Special Effects are a little different, so you may have to
tweak it somewhat, but I think this will give you the closest effect to
what you're after.
> 2)I am designing a character with fine control over gravity. One
>attack that I want to create is a Gravity Trap. GravityGuy
>wants to create 3+ small gravity wells placed equidistantly around
>the target. All the grav points then exert an equal amount of pull
>on tte target in 3+ directions at once, effectively immobilizing the
>target. I want the target to be able to (slowly) extract himself using
>sheer muscle power if he has enough STR (imagine trying to move
>away from a breech in an aircraft/spacecraft hull). The STR of the
>grav points would dissipate over a few Turns. And, this gravity trap
>would only affect the whatever was inside the 3+ points; ie no grav
>distortion outside of the grav points' circumference.
> a)I thought, naturally, of Entangle, but none of the options seem to
>cover the effect I want.
> b)some sort of Grab attack with TK
> c)a Movement Drain
> d)an Ablative Force Wall that englobes the target
You might try an Ablative Entangle, with AE: Hex. (I'm not sure what
characteristics you're looking for that Entangle doesn't match up with.)
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting (again!)
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 26 Dec 1997 11:15:35 -0500
Lines: 26
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "EK" == Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us> writes:
EK> Way back in my last campaign (which died hideously) I had a player who
EK> wanted the power to change into any animal (ala Changeling/Beast Boy of
EK> Teen Titans fame), having the Stats and abilities of the animal form
EK> (except human INT/EGO)
Shapeshift and a Variable Power Pool.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and
\ kept under refrigeration.
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:51:11 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Soliciting Ideas
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> 1)The first is an area-wide Time Stop. I envision the character
>activating the power, and all physical activity stops within the
>area of effect. And it would only affect those in the area at the
>time of activation; those entering area during the duration are
>not affected. Everyone affected would only be able to interact
>with the world via mental/spiritual means; but no physical
>movement at all.
There is _no_ way to do this on the cheap. Take a large Major Transform, and
apply Area Effect to it (I'd add Personal Immunity too). Like you say,
Movement Drain doesn't stop them from tossing energy blasts.
> 2)I am designing a character with fine control over gravity. One
>attack that I want to create is a Gravity Trap. GravityGuy
>wants to create 3+ small gravity wells placed equidistantly around
>the target. All the grav points then exert an equal amount of pull
>on tte target in 3+ directions at once, effectively immobilizing the
>target. I want the target to be able to (slowly) extract himself using
>sheer muscle power if he has enough STR (imagine trying to move
>away from a breech in an aircraft/spacecraft hull). The STR of the
>grav points would dissipate over a few Turns. And, this gravity trap
>would only affect the whatever was inside the 3+ points; ie no grav
>distortion outside of the grav points' circumference.
> a)I thought, naturally, of Entangle, but none of the options seem to
>cover the effect I want.
Sure it does. Entangle, Takes No Damage (+1/2), Entangle has No DEF (-1
1/2). Just make it a LARGE Entangle so that it has lots of BODY. For
example, a 10D6 Entangle will generate 10 BODY on average. A normal person
(10 STR, 2 SPD) will take 5 phases to escape on average. That's 2 1/2 Turns
at SPD 2.
> c)a Movement Drain
That would work too.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:51:13 EST
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< I wish we could've gotten a few more specifics. I mean, most of the folks
on the list already know about work on [titles snipped]..., but what else?>>
Well, first off the announcement is being used for other forums besides this
mailing list, so some people may not even know about those titles you
mentioned. And I have posted a list of 4th Ed projects we're developing here
at GRG. I will see if Steve will give me some Hero Plus titles that are
planned.
Mark @ GRG
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:51:14 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>Steve Long, well-known to Hero System fans as the author>of Dark
>Champions, Ultimate Martial Artist, and many other fine products.
>He's>working closely with Steve Peterson, Bruce Harlick and the rest of
>the Hero>Games crew. All-new artwork will be created for this edition of
>the Hero>System rules.
> Now, *this* should prove interesting. If there's anyone we can trust to
>make the rules clear, it's a lawyer.
<insert lots of sarcastic smileys :-) :-)> Lawyers only make stuff clear for
other lawyers. Even then they argue over fine points...
Still, a 5th edition, finally <swoon!>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 12:11:11 EST
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< I go to a Hobby Works in Laurel, but they don't carry much in the way of
Hero anymore (no demand, or don't know where to get it)>>
Those are both things that *you* the customer, can rectify. If you ask for
it, it creates demand. And if you tell them where they can order it (as I have
informed the list readers several times <G>), then the retailer knows where to
get it. If nothing else, point them to either the Games Quarterly Catalog or
to our web site (where we have a list of distributors who carry our products,
just for retailers who claim they don't know from whom to order).
Mark @ GRG
http://members.aol.com/goldrushg
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 12:36:20 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> The Spirit rules fully integrated into the system.
I don't know. These may work better staying a seperate add-on of
optionals.
> A few new powers to handle any existing powers which require
> ludicrously baroque contructs to make function (such as
> Slipperiness).
>
> The environemtn rules, or something very much like them, from Almanac
> II.
Possibly even more developed. Look at the rules the list has
designed. This would be a solution to slipperyness as well.
> MORE SKILLS! Let's not lump everything under Science/Professional
> Skill.
> There's plenty of skills which could be split out and given more
> detail.
Definately not. This works fine the way it is. If more detail is
needed, it is provided in various suppliments. See TUMA, TUM, TUSM, Dark
Champions, etc for examples.
> Better weapon rules. The OCV/DCV rules work great for
> superheroes;they work less well for Heroic level games, where it's
> ludicrously easy to become an expert in dozens of weapons. (2 points
> for a broad group, 5 points for a combat skill level or two, and
> presto -- master warrior.)
Too big of a change. It would lose the Hero "feel". As it is, a
couple of points are an awful lot for a normal person.
> More diffrentiation among low-point characters. Reasons to avoid the
> current point breaks (3,5,8) with a use for each point of each
> attribute.
Hmmm. Maybe suggestions, but don't change characteristic values.
The only values that need to change are HA and Aid. Oh, and charges at
the advantage level.
> UMA manuever design rules (or a stripped down version) folded into
> the main rules.
This works fine staying in TUMA. The core rules only need the
pared down maneuver list.
-Tim Gilberg
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Fifth Edition (Serious Discussion)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 12:36:58 CST
Cc: herogames@aol.com, goldrushg@aol.com
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Ok, now that a fifth edition is on the table being discussed, let us
(this list) consider how we might best approach this.
Brainstorm List:
Power Construction: Additions and modifications
Power Construction: Unanswered questions and contradictions
Power Construction: Examples of rule explanations
Power Construction: Examples of special effects
Power Construction: Examples of common comic gimmicks
Combat: Simplification of "I rolled a 12" to "I hit DCV 5"
Combat: Section discussion pre-game preparations for by GM
Combat: Examples of maneuvers, "Fast Ball Special", etc
HERO "Request" List
PLEASE, Please, use this list as your "playtest" group - bounce wordings,
concepts, and full sections off of us. We are all going to go out and
buy at least three of these anyway (two GMs in my house, plus the spare
we loan out, plus four other GMs in my gaming group, plus three players
who are rules lawyers = 10 sales right here). So, please, please, don't
be afraid to see any "copyrighted" material on here. Put up disclaimers,
I'll gladly sign something, but, please get active here with the drafts.
Many of us own full collections of 4th ed. (and prior) material. Many of
us run other genres than Superheroes - I for one run both fantasy and
sci-fi HERO games...
And, I noticed that the 4th ed. Champions Universe wasn't on your list
of settings for 5th ed. What is the status of that - many of us DO NOT
like the "New Millenium" setting, and want to keep the existing setting.
If neither HERO Games or GRG is interested in direct support for that
setting, are you willing to post a message allowing free use of it by
others while retaining copyright to existing material?
DonM.
--
=========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist, (217) 239-8365 =
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
=========================================================================
From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 13:54:52 EST
Cc: GoldRushG@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition (Serious Discussion)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
In a message dated 12/26/97 10:38:33 AM, dmckinne@cmi.csc.com wrote:
>And, I noticed that the 4th ed. Champions Universe wasn't on your list
>of settings for 5th ed. What is the status of that - many of us DO NOT
>like the "New Millenium" setting, and want to keep the existing setting.
>If neither HERO Games or GRG is interested in direct support for that
>setting, are you willing to post a message allowing free use of it by
>others while retaining copyright to existing material?
The Champions Universe setting continues to be supported through products
coming from Gold Rush Games and Hero Plus. This setting was never very
precise; essentially, we published general purpose superhero material that
could be used together in one setting (more or less). Continuity and story
development were not strong.
With both New Millennium material and San Angelo material, there is a much
stronger emphasis on continuity. Of course, you can use whatever pieces you
like in your own campaign. Most of the hard-core Champions fans created their
own campaign, using the bits and pieces we provided in many cases (but not
all!). We're putting out campaign settings now in an effort to make things
easier for the new Champions players, and those without the time to create
their own material.
So there will be "generic" superhero products from Hero Plus, that de facto
are set in the Champions Universe (such as it is), as well as specific New
Millennium products and specific San Angelo products. Any of these can and
should be used as a source of material for your own campaign.
-- Steve Peterson
From: "Matt Korth" <korthmat@cps.msu.edu>
Organization: I don't think so, Tim.
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 15:54:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Looking for Hero players & GMs
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> You may also try a local university. Many have gaming clubs and provide a
> neutral place to play. If anyone is in the Akron Ohio area and is free
> on Saturdays at 7:00pm meet in the upper Chuckery of Gardner Student
> Center of the University of Akron, for Champions.
Similarly, there's the Brass Dragons on Michigan State University's campus
in East Lansing, Michigan. They'd evidently focused on CCGs--at least at
meetings--for a while. A friend of mine is the president of the BDs now,
though, and I know for a fact that he's trying to bring more RPG players
in. I won't post his address w/o his permission, but if you're in the
area and interested, let me know and I'll pass it on to Dave.
--M
--
korthmat@cps.msu.edu http://www.cps.msu.edu/~korthmat
*** People who send me UBE/UCE will be crucified. ***
"Believe me, Mike, I calculated the odds of this succeeding
versus the odds that I was doing something incredibly stupid...
and I went ahead anyway." --Crow, _MST3K: The Movie_
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 12:01:35 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
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At 12:36 PM 12/26/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> The Spirit rules fully integrated into the system.
>
> I don't know. These may work better staying a seperate add-on of
>optionals.
>
<shrug>They're useful in most non-superheroic genres, esp. fantasy.
And they provide a method of doing something hard to do in Hero --
mind transfer. Still, they might be too non-mainstream for most
purposes.
>
>> MORE SKILLS! Let's not lump everything under Science/Professional
>> Skill.
>> There's plenty of skills which could be split out and given more
>> detail.
>
> Definately not. This works fine the way it is. If more detail is
>needed, it is provided in various suppliments. See TUMA, TUM, TUSM,
Dark
>Champions, etc for examples.
>
Have to disagree here. Skill lists often provide inspiration in
designing characters. At the least, come up with a definition of what
should be a 3/2 skill, what should be a 2/1 skill, etc. And
guidelines for basing skills on attributes. Maybe it's too much
GURPS, but I'd like to see a greater emphasis on skills....Hero is a
very attribute-heavy system. Or mayeb that IS too big a change.
>
>> Better weapon rules. The OCV/DCV rules work great for
>> superheroes;they work less well for Heroic level games, where it's
>> ludicrously easy to become an expert in dozens of weapons. (2
points
>> for a broad group, 5 points for a combat skill level or two, and
>> presto -- master warrior.)
>
> Too big of a change. It would lose the Hero "feel". As it is, a
>couple of points are an awful lot for a normal person.
>
Add a new limit "Uses Heroic Combat rules (-10)", sort of like
"Normal Characteristic Maxima". Character with this limit (default
under Heroic games, no points) pay increased point for weapon
familiarty and must buy familiarity with the standard combat
manuevers for 1 pt each. (I just made that up...it's an example of a
concept, NOT the suggested mechanic!)
This leaves superhero games unchanged.
>> UMA manuever design rules (or a stripped down version) folded into
>> the main rules.
>
> This works fine staying in TUMA. The core rules only need the
>pared down maneuver list.
>
I'd like them in the main book, as they give a lot of flexibility to
martial artists in heroic and superheroic games. The martial arts
rules hae evolved a long way from "Martial Arts costs STR" (remember
that?), and I like them a lot.
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Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 14:09:02 -0600
From: Timothy R Palmore <valiant@destin.gulfnet.com>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting (again!)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Earl Kwallek wrote:
>
> Way back in my last campaign (which died hideously) I had a player who
> wanted the power to change into any animal (ala Changeling/Beast Boy of
> Teen Titans fame), having the Stats and abilities of the animal form
> (except human INT/EGO)
>
> I could not for the life of me see anyway to do this at a reasonable point
> level, and have been bothered by this ever since...
>
> Since then I have come up with two possible constructs for doing this
> power, but both feel kinda sleazy to me... so I would like some input from
> the board on this.
>
> The simple way is to buy:
>
> 75 Multiform
> +1/4: Variable SFX: Any natural animal form
>
> or:
>
> 60+ Variable Power Pool
> 40 Control Cost
> +1: No Skill Roll Required
> -1/2: Only to buy various multiforms
>
> Both of these constructs assume a 300 pt character that can become any
> animal up to 300 pts.
> In both cases I charged the more expensive cost (1 per 5 pts) for the
> Multiform
> power, simply because of the versitality of the power...
This is exactly how I originally wanted to do a character with the same
powers in a game we were playing a few years back, but the GM showed me
a source book called Allies that has a character called Mr. Nobody that
has that ability plus can be any biological form that used:
(30) Shape Shift (anything of same mass), 0 END, Persistent, Must be
a biological form (-1/2), Linked to Power Pool.
(100) Variable Power Pool: Abilities appropriate to the form
(39) Control Cost for Power Pool (use appropriate Anatomy Sill
roll), +1 phase to change powers (-1/4), biological powers only
(-1/2)
(40) Multipower: 60-pt reserve, Linked to Power Pool
(4u) 6 levels of Growth, 0 END, Persistent
(4u) 3 levels of Shrinking, 0 END Persistent
(63) 5D6 Aid, Affects multiple characteristics, fades at 5
pts/hour, Only for animal stats (-1/2)
the total cost for Mr. Nobody was 380 points, which is high for a
starting character but with time you can work your way there. The GM
convinced me to go this direction (although I still liked the VPP for
only Multiform) and I worked up the character on 250 points. It worked
out good using this method and eventually I worked up to 325 points and
bought off some limitations and was eventually able to duplicate
practically anything. Hope this helps.
Tim
[rest sniped]
From: "Roger A. Wesson, Jr." <uraeus@bunt.com>
Subject: RE:Soliciting Ideas
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 21:15:18 +0100
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
First off, thanks to those who have already given me some ideas.
Thanks to the John Prins for pointing out what should've been obvious
for my Gravity Trap problem. Following his suggestions I will be using something similiar to the following:
10d6 Entangle, Takes No Damage (+1/2), Reduced DEF(-1)
The Reduced DEF disadv is the Entangle Has No DEF(-1 1/2) disadv
modified so that the Entangle has 1 DEF for every 5d6.
So, on average, this entangle will have 10 BODY with a DEF of 2.
This will make it more difficult for Normals to break free, but not
impossible with a few good rolls. And it will slow down the escape
of stronger targets, even if it is only for an extra segment or two.
I may tweak this a little more; limit the max duration with Continuing
Charges etc.
For the Time Stop power, Bob Greenwade suggested the Mental
Paralysis power from The Ultimate Mentalist. This sounds like something
I could use, but unfortunately I don't have TUM yet. So, Bob, if you
could send me a post (preferably off-list) with the specifics concerning
that power I'd appreciate it.
Again thanks everybody for their suggestions. Please, if you have other
alternatives, post 'em! Even if I don't use 'em now, they make spark
other ideas in the future.
Roger
"Oops. I thought he was tougher than that. And I never hit him before!"
- Magma, standing over the smoking ruin that *was* The Jazz.
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 15:20:00 -0500 (EST)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> Q: Who is publishing the Hero System 5th Edition, and how will it be
> distributed?
> A: The Hero System 5th Edition is being published by Gold Rush Games, and
> distributed worldwide by them.
>
...though they can neither confirm nor deny this ;-)
Seriously though, this news rocks the house 8^)
The future of Hero/Champs suddenly looks very bright indeed.
-Eric
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 12:42:29 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Flying body parts!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
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OK, here's one:
How to do character who can seperate their body parts under hero?
TK and stretching are obvious answers, but each has a slight problem.
For stretching:There's no physical link between the 'main' part and
the 'seperated' part. Stretching implies a continuous physical
prescence;if I stretch my arm 8 hexes, it can be attacked in any one
of those hexes.
For TK:There *is* a physical prescence at the 'active point' of the
TK. If your hand is flying around, I can trap it in a jar, and you
can't just 'turn off' the TK to get it back.
Plus, you also gain a physical limitation when the power is in use --
no hands (or legs, or eyes (clairvoyance), etc).
Ideas?
And, yes, two characters (at least) have had this power:Captain
Marvel from Atlas Comics, and Patchwork Girl from the Wild Cards
books.
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From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Cc: "'uraeus@bunt.com'" <uraeus@bunt.com>
Subject: RE:Soliciting Ideas
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 15:42:43 -0500
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>For the Time Stop power...
You can also check out
http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905/haym12a.html
Dave Mattingly
X-Sender: why@superlink.net
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 16:07:54 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:01 PM 12/26/97 -0800, Lizard wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>At 12:36 PM 12/26/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>>> The Spirit rules fully integrated into the system.
>>
>> I don't know. These may work better staying a seperate add-on of
>>optionals.
I think they would fit into a section like the Automaton rules, vehicle
rules or computer rules fit in. I assume that Vehicle rules will still be
included in the main rule book, even with the TUSV under separate development.
>>> MORE SKILLS! Let's not lump everything under Science/Professional
>>> Skill.
>> Definately not. This works fine the way it is. If more detail is
>>needed, it is provided in various suppliments.
>Have to disagree here. Skill lists often provide inspiration in
>designing characters. At the least, come up with a definition of what
>should be a 3/2 skill, what should be a 2/1 skill, etc. And
>guidelines for basing skills on attributes.
No, no. Less skills is better. The only use for a Chemistry skill is a
few specific plot points in an adventure or when super wall clinging lad
wants to improve his webline shooters. There is no reason to require
separate write ups for Bio-chemistry, ionic chemistry, plasma state
chemistry or any other specific sub-category of chemistry unless it helps
define your character.
>Add a new limit "Uses Heroic Combat rules (-10)", sort of like
>"Normal Characteristic Maxima". Character with this limit (default
>under Heroic games, no points) pay increased point for weapon
>familiarty and must buy familiarity with the standard combat
>manuevers for 1 pt each. (I just made that up...it's an example of a
>concept, NOT the suggested mechanic!)
Huh? This sounds like a campagne decision, not a character sheet item.
Why not include "Uses Hit Location tables (-10)" while you are at it?
Every other superhero just bounces around, but this guy gets head and leg
injuries.
>>> UMA manuever design rules (or a stripped down version) folded into
>>> the main rules.
>I'd like them in the main book, as they give a lot of flexibility to
>martial artists in heroic and superheroic games.
Here, I agree. This could be another section like the spirit rules above
so as not to clutter up the skills section.
Joe
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 15:24:42 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<DISCLAIMER>
The following text is written in its entirety with tongue planted firmly in
cheek.
</DISCLAIMER>
<WISEASS>
At 12:05 AM 12/26/97 EST, Hero Games wrote:
> Hero Games & Gold Rush Games Announce Hero System 5th Edition
> Hero Games and Gold Rush Games are proud to announce the 5th Edition of
> the Hero System is officially in progress, scheduled for release late in
> 1998.
Using standard Game Release Math, we double the number and move up one unit
on the time table ... well, we'll have it before the 22nd century at least.
> Q: Why put out a 5th Edition of the Hero System?
> A: Rather than reprint the current edition (which we're running low on),
> we decided to take the opportunity to rewrite the Hero System rules for
> clarity, fix some of the rules, and add in some of the rules that have
> been developed over time. A major factor in our decision is the strong
> desire among Hero fans to see a new edition of the rules.
Very good, Mr. Petersen. As a show of good faith, we the Hero fans will
graciously return your liver.
> Q: Who is working on the Hero System 5th Edition?
> A: The main writer is Steve Long, well-known to Hero System fans as the
> author of Dark Champions, Ultimate Martial Artist, and many other fine
> products.
Presumably, his work on this project will force him to actually read a
rulebook, unless he's mastered the art of typing blindfolded.
</WISEASS>
All good-natured pseudocynicism aside, thank you Hero Games for restoring a
bit of my faith in non-monster game companies.
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 15:24:47 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:36 PM 12/26/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> UMA manuever design rules (or a stripped down version) folded into
>> the main rules.
>
> This works fine staying in TUMA. The core rules only need the
>pared down maneuver list.
I'd agree (or at least "eh") with you on most of your points, but here ...
no, the martial arts design rules really do belong in the core rules --
they're MORE necessary than the "pared-down list", since the latter is just
a poor-man's substitute for the former.
I'd prefer the Hero System Rulebook, whatever edition, be the one-stop shop
for mechanics. Other books can give campaign information and -genre
specific- rules, sure. But (for example) designing martial arts is
important to more than just chop-saki games -- in fact, the more oddball and
unique a campaign setting is, the more likely that it's going to need the GM
to sit down to work out a martial art.
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 15:24:49 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Punching and Stun and such...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:23 PM 12/26/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< It's especially important for a hero in a standard 4-color superhero game
>to know how much damage he does. IMHO realistic levels of uncertanity about
>how much damage a punch does should result in heroes with Codes vs Killing
>refusing to *ever* throw a punch - it's too dangerous. >>
>
> I completely disagree. The important element in a four-color game (and
>indeed in *any* game) is the *story*. Characters talking "player-talk" is
>silly, IMO. And so is the character "knowing" how much Stun got through
>defenses.
I think Erol's critics are missing the point here. The GM refused to tell
him AN-Y-THING. Statements like "I prefer descriptives to actual numbers"
are moot -- Erol would have happily settled for a descriptive instead of a
number, too ... but that's NOT what he was getting. He was getting NADA.
Just knowing that you hit or missed, and nothing else, simply isn't
adequate. I might not have walked out (after all, it being a con event,
it's not like I'm getting my money back or anything), but I probably would
have been complaining about the screwjob for the rest of the day.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 15:24:51 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Titanic
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:29 PM 12/26/97 -0600, bobby farris wrote:
>I know this is off subject and I apologize and accept all flames headed
>my way, but sometimes you just have to stand up and say somthing.
> I want to tell everyone to go see the movie Titanic. It is worth the
>admission price 3 or 4 times. Mr. Cameron has truely outdone himself and
>created a Masterpiece. If you see only one picture in the next
>year...make it this one.
Thank you for your review, but I'm already committed to watching one movie
next year, the one Jim had the chance to make and passed on. Come Memorial
Day, I'm watching Godzilla eat Manhattan. :]
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 16:28:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Some sad news
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
As some of you probably kow, I am a big fan of Hong Kong cinema and
Japanese samurai films.
Thus, it saddens me to report that Toshiro Mifune, one of the greatest
actors to come out of Japan, died Wensday at the age of 77.
He made over 130 films, include the Seven Samurai (basis for the
Magnificent Seven) and Yojimbo (basis for A Fistfull of Dollars and Last
Man Standing), as well as a number of period samurai films by Akira
Kurasawa. He also portrayed Miyamoto Mushashi, Japan's greatest swordsman
in a series of three films.
Western movie viewers my know him from Red Sun, Midway and the TV
mini-series Shogun.
He will be missed.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Some sad news
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 26 Dec 1997 16:57:57 -0500
Lines: 26
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes:
MS> He made over 130 films, include the Seven Samurai (basis for the
MS> Magnificent Seven) and Yojimbo (basis for A Fistfull of Dollars and Last
MS> Man Standing),
You forgot "The Hidden Fortress", the basis for "Star Wars" (Mifune played
Alec Guinnes' character).
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
\ Earth, presumably from outer space.
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: Re: Flying body parts!
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 17:12:39 -0500
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>How to do character who can separate their body parts under hero?
You're on the right track with TK and Stretching, but how about:
Invisible Indirect Stretching
and
Invisible Indirect TK with the Feedback (-1) limitation
A few other powers that my character Jigsaw has are:
Regeneration, able to regrow limbs.
Damage reduction, only if BODY is taken (-1/2), representing that if an
attack is powerful enough to hurt him, it just passes through his body
with little damage.
Desolid, not versus STUN-only attacks, plus STR affects solid,
representing that he can swarm-like will his body into a mass of mostly
disconnected pieces.
Teleport, only to a body part (-1).
Clairsentience, representing leaving an eye or an ear elsewhere.
Dave Mattingly
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition (Serious Discussion)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:15:02 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> And, I noticed that the 4th ed. Champions Universe wasn't on your list
> of settings for 5th ed. What is the status of that - many of us DO NOT
> like the "New Millenium" setting, and want to keep the existing setting.
> If neither HERO Games or GRG is interested in direct support for that
> setting, are you willing to post a message allowing free use of it by
> others while retaining copyright to existing material?
I'm going to make a semi-educated guess here and presume the
reason for this is due to multiple people holding the rights to various
characters.
And due to it's inconsistant nature as the 4th edition universe
developed only as a mix and mash of old 'modules' and attempts to glue
them together.
My guess is they desire a consistant, house owned universe.
GRG's San Angelo seems to be just this. I imagine Hero themselves
might off another counter universe as well. Possibly the New Millenium one,
possibly not.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 14:43:12 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 04:07 PM 12/26/97 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>No, no. Less skills is better. The only use for a Chemistry skill
is a
>few specific plot points in an adventure or when super wall clinging
lad
>wants to improve his webline shooters. There is no reason to
require
>separate write ups for Bio-chemistry, ionic chemistry, plasma state
>chemistry or any other specific sub-category of chemistry unless it
helps
>define your character.
>
In superheroic games, totally true. Richard Reeds has PS:Scientist!
at 21-, and he can whip up a growth serum (biochemistry), build a ray
gun (electronics), and repair a faster-than-life drive
(Pseudophysics) with equal skill. But in heroic level games,
guidelines for what is what become more important.
There's a real difference in character building decisions if a
scientists needs to buy one skill or ten. Such things do NOT fit in
four-color games, but do matter in Heroic games.
My bias is towards Heroic-level, non-superhero games, so, naturally,
I want to see more support for those type of games in any revised
rulebook. A lot of what I want is NOT necessary or appropriate for
four-color games (along with hit location, bleeding rules, etc), and
I freely admit this.
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Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 17:46:35 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Flying body parts!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>How to do character who can seperate their body parts under hero?
>Plus, you also gain a physical limitation when the power is in use --
>no hands (or legs, or eyes (clairvoyance), etc).
Indirect Stretching with Side Effects (Phys.Lim., etc.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 09:25:31 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: RE:Soliciting Ideas
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:15 PM 12/26/97 +0100, Roger A. Wesson, Jr. wrote:
> For the Time Stop power, Bob Greenwade suggested the Mental
>Paralysis power from The Ultimate Mentalist. This sounds like something
>I could use, but unfortunately I don't have TUM yet. So, Bob, if you
>could send me a post (preferably off-list) with the specifics concerning
>that power I'd appreciate it.
>
> Again thanks everybody for their suggestions. Please, if you have other
>alternatives, post 'em! Even if I don't use 'em now, they make spark
>other ideas in the future.
>
>
spd drain?
>Roger
>
>"Oops. I thought he was tougher than that. And I never hit him before!"
>- Magma, standing over the smoking ruin that *was* The Jazz.
>
>
>
>
>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Supplement help
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 00:37:38 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> Also, certain areas (like the San Francisco Bay Area) are heavy in
> Champions players. I don't know other states as well as California, but everyone
> being The Local Expert, you likely know where to go.
Well, it's died down a bit. But it's still a popular item here.
Niether Hero nor Fuzion sells in the stores here. Nor does any Super Hero
RPG.
I can find about 20 on the web with a quick search though.
And I know of several groups that are not on the net.
Most of them believe Hero to be dead. If I still had contact, I'd correct
that. It's not dead, in the same sense that V&V is not out of print.
Which is not a snide comment. I actually ordered a new copy of
V&V a few months ago. The store I did it through laughed at me. But they
placed the order anyway, then called me 2 days later to say it was in.
So. Here in San Francisco and surrounding cities Hero System is
a well ingrained RPG system; but it's following is slowly eroding, and
common perception is it's no longer published.
But it's not hard to find people who do it.
Yet.
Hopefully the upcoming stuff will be advertised well and the market here will
grow.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Supplement help
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 16:57:31 -0800
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Friday, December 26, 1997 4:00 AM, 4boaters wrote:
>I am looking for an old supplement I believe that it was called
>Coreallis Effect or something like that. I have never seen it, but
two
>of my gms have suggested it.
>
>Does anyone have this, or no where I can get a copy?
>
I used to have a copy years ago, but it was stolen, along with most of
my gaming supplies, at a con. Its name was "The Coriolis Effect". It
was the first supplement to contain Dr. Arcane, SFAIK. It contained an
old enemy of Dr. Arcane, an avatar of an ancient enemy known as the
Black Enchantress, who turned Arcane's daughter into an air elemental
of enormous power-- Coriolis.
It wasn't bad. It was, IIRC, the first book to give some guidelines to
the use of VPPs, as well.
Filksinger
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 19:41:13 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: RE:Soliciting Ideas
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> "Oops. I thought he was tougher than that. And I never hit him before!"
> - Magma, standing over the smoking ruin that *was* The Jazz.
>
Reminds me of one of my personal favorite game moments.
"I thought he could fly."
-Javelin, after tossing Ego out of a 50 story building and
discovering that no, he couldn't fly.
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 19:42:44 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> > distributed?
> > A: The Hero System 5th Edition is being published by Gold Rush Games, and
> > distributed worldwide by them.
> >
>
> ...though they can neither confirm nor deny this ;-)
No, they can neither confirm nor deny that they can neither
confirm nor deny this.
-Tim Gilberg
X-Sender: ghost@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 20:06:09 -0600
From: Bryce Berggren <ghost@softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Con Games
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:47 AM 12/24/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>In the real world, you would not have the slightest idea how much
>damage got through someone's PD. Boxers frequently talk about how
>surprised they are that one punch worked, and another didn't, even
>when fighting the same person. You do not know how much damage you did
>in real life, except by guesswork. When was the last time you hit
>someone, and you knew how many points of STUN you did?
"Exact accounting," one would not have. "Slightest idea?" In a word,
bull. If you heard a boxer say they had /no/ idea how a punch would
affect their opponent, it was either a very bad or very punch-drunk
boxer--you /also/ hear boxers talk about setting up their opponents
carefully over the course of an entire round or two.
In any case, I can reasonably tell whether an attack hurt my opponent
a little, a lot, or not at all, and I haven't been in too many fights
since grade school. :-/
>This is especially true of a superhero game, as two targets, one with
>completely rigid armor, and one who flexes to absorb damage, might
>have exactly the same PD, yet feel entirely different to your fist In
>one case, the shockwave could do STUN to the target in spite of no
>give to the armor at all, in the other the failure to absorb all the
> kinetic energy could damage the target, but not nearly as much as it
> feels like. Thus, the most your character should know is how much
> damage he dished out, not how much he did.
I think it's the other way around. How an opponent /absorbs/ damage is
a matter of SFX, as you illustrated above. How an opponent /reacts/ to
damage is easily interpretable without a successful Acting roll, and
if he's Stunned, he wouldn't even have that.
>Regardless, that was a trivial reason for walking out in the middle of
>a game, and unfair to the other players or the GM. If I had been there
>and seen you walk out over such a minor point, I would have thought
>twice about letting you join one of my games, even if I agreed with
>you.
I've been mostly a GM, but I've been a player long enough to know that
the /worst/ error a GM can make is to not give the players information
they'd logically have. In specific, I remember a Mekton campaign that
the GM worked on for weeks literally ruined because of a "minor point"
that was misinterpreted in the first adventure.
This goes double for convention games, where somebody's often paid to
play. If they /have/ their stats and don't roleplay well because of it,
then don't reward them. But risking a screwup that breaks the suspension
of disbelief just because you don't think the players can RP if they know
their stats is just plain dumb.
No offense, but if you considered the above a minor point, I don't think
you'd have to worry about that second think.
H. G.
He beats his fists against the posts
and still insists he sees the ghosts
X-Sender: ghost@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 20:06:12 -0600
From: Bryce Berggren <ghost@softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:05 AM 12/26/97 EST, Hero Games wrote:
>Here's a Christmas present for Hero System fans. I've put it into Q&A format
> for ease of use. Happy holidays!
>
> -- Steve Peterson
If this isn't the embodiment of "be careful what you wish for," I don't know
what is. :-/ And why is that?
> Q: Who is working on the Hero System 5th Edition?
> A: The main writer is Steve Long, well-known to Hero System fans as the author
> of Dark Champions, Ultimate Martial Artist, and many other fine products. He's
> working closely with Steve Peterson, Bruce Harlick and the rest of the Hero
> Games crew. All-new artwork will be created for this edition of the Hero
> System rules.
Cute. We argue for nearly a month here on whether or not he even understands
THIS edition of the system well enough to write for it, and they're letting him
write the next edition.
> Q: What changes are planned for 5th Edition?
> A: We plan to review all of the material that's been published for the Hero
> System since 1989 and include the best of it (rules, skills, powers, and
> modifiers) in this edition. The main changes, however, will be in rewriting
> the rules for added clarity, including more examples, and more detailed
> explanations of how various powers work. We will not be changing the cost of
> Characteristics or the basic combat rules of the game. Point costs of a very
> few things may change.
"Not changing the cost of Characteristics" ... which means not changing the
cost of STR, which means not touching one of only 3 1/2 things you can get
anywhere near a general consensus on around here as needing to happen (the
others being clarifying Linked, adding a stratified purchase system to Change
Environment, and fixing HA's Active Cost, which is connected to STR being so
cheap).
> Q: Is there a chance for my input to 5th Edition?
> Yes! We're working on a set of questions that we're asking for everyone to
> fill out, along with any other input anyone may have. We'd like to get all
> input in this standard format, though, to make it easier to process all of the
> data. Look for the form to appear soon on the Hero Games web site at
> www.herogames.com.
>
> A: Will all my 4th Edition Characters have to be rewritten?
> No! The Hero System 5th Edition will maintain complete compatibility with the
> 4th Edition. Any 4th Edition character will work fine under 5th Edition rules.
Of course, Fuzion maintained "complete compatibility" with HERO, too, remember?
:-/
H. G.
He beats his fists against the posts
and still insists he sees the ghosts
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 18:12:48 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Speed of Stretching...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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How fast can you stretch? Is it instantaneous? If so, wouldn't a
character with, say, 40" of Stretching be able to do one hell of a
move-by while standing still? (Stretches 40" in one phase, anything
hit by that fist is gonna be hurting...)
I'd say, at a guess, Stretching ought to 'travel' at 6"/phase,
possibly bought up at +2"/1 points (so 3 points would give you a
speed of 12" phase).
Doing the 'fast stretching fist attack' could be bought as
follows:10d6 EB vs. PD, Does 1d6 per hex travelled up to 10d6 max (so
the fist builds up speed as it extends...if you pound someone 2 hexes
away, it's a mere 2d6, 8 hexes away, 8d6, etc. I'd call this a -1
limitation, as it makes the power virtually useless at close
range...)
Or maybe HTH Attack bought with Range?
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From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 21:37:14 EST
Subject: Re: Con Games
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
In a message dated 97-12-24 11:08:39 EST, filkhero@usa.net wrote:
> In the real world, you would not have the slightest idea how much
> damage got through someone's PD. Boxers frequently talk about how
> surprised they are that one punch worked, and another didn't, even
> when fighting the same person. You do not know how much damage you did
> in real life, except by guesswork. When was the last time you hit
> someone, and you knew how many points of STUN you did?
But the boxers *are* able to see if a punch worked or not or else they
couldn't even *be* surprised in the first place. Unless the other guy has some
way to hide it, one should be able to distinguish the levels no-stun-got-
through/some-stun-got-through/con-stunned/ko'd. (OK, if you wanted to be
"realistic" about it, you'd have to make a PER roll.)
>This is especially true of a superhero game, as two targets, one with
>completely rigid armor, and one who flexes to absorb damage, might
>have exactly the same PD, yet feel entirely different to your fist In
>one case, the shockwave could do STUN to the target in spite of no
>give to the armor at all, in the other the
>failure to absorb all the kinetic energy could damage the target, but
>not nearly as much as it feels like. Thus, the most your character
>should know is how much damage he dished out, not how much
>he did.
It's especially important for a hero in a standard 4-color superhero game to
know how much damage he does. IMHO realistic levels of uncertanity about how
much damage a punch does should result in heroes with Codes vs Killing
refusing to *ever* throw a punch - it's too dangerous.
> Regardless, that was a trivial reason for walking out in the middle of
> a game, and unfair to the other players or the GM. If I had been there
> and seen you walk out over such a minor point, I would have thought
> twice about letting you
> join one of my games, even if I agreed with you.
And I would think twice about joining a game where the GM considered it a
minor point. IMHO the problem of limited bandwidth between players and GM is
one of The Big Problems in rpg's - it's one of the reasons why we *have* rules
and mechanics and dice in the first place.
By my lights the GM in question was *cheating* on a level roughly equivalent
to showing blatent favorism to one of the players. Given the enormous
differences in philosophy between myself and the GM, staying in that game
would have been even more unfair to the other players than walking.
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:14:32 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Speed of Stretching...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>How fast can you stretch? Is it instantaneous? If so, wouldn't a
>character with, say, 40" of Stretching be able to do one hell of a
>move-by while standing still? (Stretches 40" in one phase, anything
>hit by that fist is gonna be hurting...)
Stretching is not a movement power. Therefore, it cannot be used to add to a
move-by or move-through. Simply put, Stretching doesn't give the character a
velocity! Says so right in the Stretching writeup! "Stretching does not give
a character any bonuses to movement".
>I'd say, at a guess, Stretching ought to 'travel' at 6"/phase,
>possibly bought up at +2"/1 points (so 3 points would give you a
>speed of 12" phase).
Stretching generally takes half a phase, regardless of how far you want to
Stretch. At least for combat stretching. Mostly because Stretching is
usually part of another 1/2 phase maneuver, like a punch. A Streching
Haymaker would take as long as a regular Haymaker.
Noncombat Stretching is a little iffy, but I'd hazard a guess at the
distance of your Combat Stretching per phase, kind of like how moving up to
Noncombat speed with a movement power accelerates on a 'combat' purchase
increment.
>Doing the 'fast stretching fist attack' could be bought as
>follows:10d6 EB vs. PD, Does 1d6 per hex travelled up to 10d6 max (so
>the fist builds up speed as it extends...if you pound someone 2 hexes
>away, it's a mere 2d6, 8 hexes away, 8d6, etc. I'd call this a -1
>limitation, as it makes the power virtually useless at close
>range...)
>
>Or maybe HTH Attack bought with Range?
Probably some variant on 'reduced by range' turned upside-down - 'increased
by range', with the mechanic you describe. I'd give it a -1/2 limitation, as
it really is useless very close up. And I'd model it with an Energy Blast.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 20:03:15 -0800
From: Wayne Wallace <atra@mindspring.com>
Organization: APA (American Powergamers Association)
Subject: Re: Supplement help
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Filksinger wrote:
>
> On Friday, December 26, 1997 4:00 AM, 4boaters wrote:
>
> >I am looking for an old supplement I believe that it was called
> >Coreallis Effect or something like that. I have never seen it, but
> two
> >of my gms have suggested it.
> >
> >Does anyone have this, or no where I can get a copy?
> >
>
> I used to have a copy years ago, but it was stolen, along with most of
> my gaming supplies, at a con. Its name was "The Coriolis Effect". It
> was the first supplement to contain Dr. Arcane, SFAIK. It contained an
> old enemy of Dr. Arcane, an avatar of an ancient enemy known as the
> Black Enchantress, who turned Arcane's daughter into an air elemental
> of enormous power-- Coriolis.
>
> It wasn't bad. It was, IIRC, the first book to give some guidelines to
> the use of VPPs, as well.
>
> Filksinger
Well, the author, Dennis Mallonee, is available at heroicpub@aol.com.
For an actual copy though, your best bet is likely searching at game conventions,
the larger the better. (IE, you might pay an arm and a leg, but GenCon or Origins
would have sufficient dealer-room space to locate it. Maybe San Diego Comic Con
too, but gaming is only a minor cog in that wheel, though the comicbook/super-rpg
link exists.)
Also, certain areas (like the San Francisco Bay Area) are heavy in
Champions players. I don't know other states as well as California, but everyone
being The Local Expert, you likely know where to go.
Wayne
P.S. As someone who plays in Dennis' campaign, I have to say the Black Enchantress
is indeed evil, it's just that AFAIK, she's never done anything bad to any of my
characters. (Although the low-end power-armor flying brick who requested to be
bonded with an Air Elemental does carry a new disad I got full points for (to help
afford the larger power base) : Indebted to the Black Enchantress. Great thing to
have on a hero, huh? Got 20 or 30 points for it. I cringe in fear whenever I run
the character (not often, unfortunately) because at any moment, She might make a
request, and I'd have to do it.)
--
1234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890
Join the American Powergamers' Association!
Improving the rules-knowledge of AD&D players, one group at a time.
mailto:atra@mindspring.com http://www.mindspring.com/~atra/
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Speed of Stretching...
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 26 Dec 1997 23:10:56 -0500
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>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> writes:
L> How fast can you stretch? Is it instantaneous? If so, wouldn't a
L> character with, say, 40" of Stretching be able to do one hell of a
L> move-by while standing still? (Stretches 40" in one phase, anything
L> hit by that fist is gonna be hurting...)
No. A Stretched limb has no velocity due to Stretching. The limb may move
40" "instantaneously", but the character has no velocity due to that
Stretching.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
\ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:18:43 -0600
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting (again!)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:15 AM 12/26/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>>>>>> "EK" == Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us> writes:
>
>EK> Way back in my last campaign (which died hideously) I had a player who
>EK> wanted the power to change into any animal (ala Changeling/Beast Boy of
>EK> Teen Titans fame), having the Stats and abilities of the animal form
>EK> (except human INT/EGO)
>
>Shapeshift and a Variable Power Pool.
>
Doesn't work!
Unless you allow the character to buy "Negative Stats" in the VPP and get
extra points from them....
Example: Genus has a 13 STR in her Human Form, When an Elephant she has a
45 STR, No Problem just buy some Growth, DI, and Str. BUT when she becomes
a hummingbird she has a STR of about -20 (NEGATIVE 20) does she get 33 pts
added to her VPP for buying STR down from her normal (human) STR?
+-------------------------+-------------------------------------+
|Earl A Kwallek | You have the Right to Remain Silent |
|"Student of Everything" | Anything you say WILL be misquoted |
|Earl@TheWarren.Mil.Wi.Us | and used against you... |
+-------------------------+-------------------------------------+
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 23:22:54 EST
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition (Serious Discussion)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< If neither HERO Games or GRG is interested in direct support for that
setting, are you willing to post a message allowing free use of it by others
while retaining copyright to existing material? >>
First of all, nobody said that niether company was uninterested in
supporting it. We (GRG) have already stated publically (and in our Submission
Guidelines) that we will still consider proposals for CU material (though we
will obviously have a preference for books set in the SAU).
As for allowing the CU to go public domain... I can't speak for Hero games
but my gut reaction is "Fat chance!" :D It's still an intellectual property
with value and I seriously doubt Hero is going to just give away. After all,
that's what licensing arrangements are for. ;)
Oh, and just in case the Hero guys do some really weird drugs and *do* give
it away... I want to renegotiate our licensing contract. ;)
Btw, it's not necessary to cc: a message like this to us. You can just send
it to the list, as an appropriate subject header will get my attention.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 23:23:03 EST
Subject: Re: Flying body parts!
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< If your hand is flying around, I can trap it in a jar, and you can't just
'turn off' the TK to get it back.>>
OAF: Detached Body Part? It cuts the cost way down (amply simulatingf the
"Disadvantage" you mentioned) and the OAF can be trapped. Perhaps add also the
"Single Recoverable Charge" so that if the hand *is* trapped... Well, there
went your one Charge. ;)
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 23:23:04 EST
Subject: Re: Some sad news
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< Thus, it saddens me to report that Toshiro Mifune, one of the greatest
actors to come out of Japan, died Wensday at the age of 77. >>
I got the news, too. I'm very saddened by his passing, as I am a *huge*
chambara fan (no big surprise there).
We'll likely be dedicating Sengoku to Mr. Mifune.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 23:23:15 EST
Subject: Punching and Stun and such...
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< It's especially important for a hero in a standard 4-color superhero game
to know how much damage he does. IMHO realistic levels of uncertanity about
how much damage a punch does should result in heroes with Codes vs Killing
refusing to *ever* throw a punch - it's too dangerous. >>
I completely disagree. The important element in a four-color game (and
indeed in *any* game) is the *story*. Characters talking "player-talk" is
silly, IMO. And so is the character "knowing" how much Stun got through
defenses.
The level of effect you described (No Effect/Some Stun got
through/Stunned/KO) is pretty darn simple to simulate just using descriptives
alone. In fact, you can expand on your own example and provide a wealth of
information without actually quoting exact numbers.
For instance, how about:
Attack not noticed (0 Stun and painfully obvious)
"He doesn't even know he was hit. He felt nothing."
Felt but trivial effect (A few Pts. of Stun)
"He felt the blow and his head turned when you hit him, but he just smiles
at you."
Moderate effect (Up to 1/4 Stun lost)
"He shakes his head and winces, then clenches his teeth and fist even
tighter!"
Good effect (Up to 1/2 Stun)
"He looks a little woozy and he grimaces from the pain. He's mad but
weakened."
Stunned (Exceeds CON in Stun lost)
"He can barely stand, and he is oblivious to his surroundings... for the
moment."
Knocked Out (Exceeds Stun)
"He falls to the ground like a sack of rocks and is no longer moving."
As you can see, I like the "cinematic" style of GMing. ;)
Mark @ GRG
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 23:50:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Some sad news
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 26 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> << Thus, it saddens me to report that Toshiro Mifune, one of the greatest
> actors to come out of Japan, died Wensday at the age of 77. >>
>
> I got the news, too. I'm very saddened by his passing, as I am a *huge*
> chambara fan (no big surprise there).
>
> We'll likely be dedicating Sengoku to Mr. Mifune.
Cool, Mark.
BTW: I saw a poster for the Usagi RPG and Sengoku books.
That Sengoku cover ROCKS!
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 23:29:12 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: None
Subject: Titanic
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I know this is off subject and I apologize and accept all flames headed
my way, but sometimes you just have to stand up and say somthing.
I want to tell everyone to go see the movie Titanic. It is worth the
admission price 3 or 4 times. Mr. Cameron has truely outdone himself and
created a Masterpiece. If you see only one picture in the next
year...make it this one.
X-Sender: nezmaster@ntr.net
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 00:32:51 -0500
beclectic3@aol.com, Dhelcint@aol.com, Beth@thepoint.net,
champ-l@omg.org, clstuber@aol.com, dingo_@usa.net, hodge@thepoint.net,
sysdeb@iglou.com, dhsilv01@homer.louisville.edu, gbrown2166@aol.com,
acrandel@prudential.com, cfluhr@brother.win.net, Clstuber@aol.com,
darmon27@aol.com, Dmnchyld@aol.com, draymu01@bellarmine.edu,
Fantasyart@juno.com, Fnord@ntr.net, Gbrown2166@aol.com,
Imangered@juno.com, jnneukz1@ulkyvm.louisville.edu,
khornerules@juno.com, lebif@juno.com, Salem@ntr.net, nezmaster@ntr.net,
porthos@iglou.com, posuane@ntr.net, Rseng@bellsouth.net,
amanda@power.dynasty.net, amzimm01@homer.louisville.edu,
Arlied@microsoft.com, beclectic3@aol.com, beth@thepoint.net,
clstuber@aol.com, docjeckal@ntr.net, dphorr01@homer.louisville.edu,
dhsilv01@homer.louisville.edu, eamercer@cord.iupui.edu, fnord@ntr.net,
frog@mis.net, gbrown2166@aol.com, Hodge@thepoint.net,
Jnneukz1@ulkyvm.louisville.edu, lamarty@iglou.com, lebif@juno.com,
mother@mis.net, noellynn@erols.com, phyllisb@neumedia.net,
sysdeb@iglou.com, tomsok@infinet.com, Fnord@ntr.net,
Jnneukz1@ulkyvm.louisville.edu, lebif@juno.com, midaztch@enteract.com,
docjeckal@ntr.net, kevlor@iquest.net, lamarty@iglou.com,
mhisle@COMPUSERVE.COM, jls4als@aol.com, cfluhr@brother.win.net,
frog@mis.net, hisroyalhighness@yahoo.com, DaveM@FocusSoft.com
From: Nez Master <nezmaster@ntr.net>
Subject: New Years Eve Party
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Hello anyone and everyone.
I am holding a new years Eve celebration at my home.
I would like as many people as possible. I hereby give powers of invitation
to all of you. There will be several rooms, space heater in the garage for
smokers I hope...(let me know if you have one i can borrow), Green stuff,
actual drinkable liqour (contributions HEAVILY encouraged), other stuff.
Bring chips cokes whatever...call if you want to bring ice.
The time: 8 or 9 or whatever..if you want to come earlier than 8 feel free
to call.
The place: 716 Heywood avenue, Louisville Kentucky 40208...(Taylor
Boulevard to Heywood (the ninth and o church is on the corner..it's two
blocks North of Central avenue which ahs a rite aid and a pic pac on the
corner)
502\637-8955
Spread the word...see you New years Eve.
-------------------------Nez Master--------------------
Second founder of the backwards philosophy
http://www.ntr.net/~nezmaster
Nothing is certain
_______________________________________________________
X-Sender: wbandsis@mail.westco.net
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 00:48:06 -0500
From: "C. Badger" <wbandsis@westco.net>
Subject: Re: Soliciting Ideas
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 16:32 12/26/97 +0100, Roger A. Wesson, Jr. wrote:
> 1)The first is an area-wide Time Stop. I envision the character
>activating the power, and all physical activity stops within the
>area of effect. And it would only affect those in the area at the
>time of activation; those entering area during the duration are
>not affected. Everyone affected would only be able to interact
>with the world via mental/spiritual means; but no physical
>movement at all.
USe speed drain yes it is expensive but gets the job done. Faster people
would feel like they are moving thru molasses.... Of course the area effect
for large areas isn't going to be inexpensive either.
> a)I thought of using a Movement Drain, but that wouldn't stop
>actions such as letting off EBs, etc.
> b)I also thought of using Transform (Major:physical paralysis)
>with the Continuing Charge(s) disadv., but in order for it to
>overpower normals (Transform roll 2xtarget's BODY) I would
>need a minimum Transform of 4d6, and something on the order
>of 8d6 - 10d6 for a consistently effective result of 20 BODY or
>better.
Body really isn't the target for paralysis Dex would be on the other hand.
-----
C. Badger
My Feet hurt and I've forgotten how to dance.
Londo
Babylon 5
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 00:51:06 EST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Soliciting Ideas
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
In a message dated 97-12-26 10:34:57 EST, you write:
<< 1)The first is an area-wide Time Stop. I envision the character
activating the power, and all physical activity stops within the
area of effect. And it would only affect those in the area at the
time of activation; those entering area during the duration are
not affected. Everyone affected would only be able to interact
with the world via mental/spiritual means; but no physical
movement at all.
a)I thought of using a Movement Drain, but that wouldn't stop
actions such as letting off EBs, etc.
b)I also thought of using Transform (Major:physical paralysis)
with the Continuing Charge(s) disadv., but in order for it to
overpower normals (Transform roll 2xtarget's BODY) I would
need a minimum Transform of 4d6, and something on the order
of 8d6 - 10d6 for a consistently effective result of 20 BODY or
better.
>>
I'm sure there's a better way to do this, but one possible way would be to use
Extradimensional Movement, Area Effect. The dimensions would be defined as
just being slightly out of phase with our dimension, and the SFX of XDim would
allow for them to appear to be in one place the whole time. This would not
work if you're goind for the affect of being able to interact with the 'time
frozen' people like taking foci away or such, since they technically wouldn't
be there.
Another possibility would be an A/E Mental Paralysis (Entangle BOECV with
Advantages) that would simulate the time stop, but the individual characters
stuck in it would probably get out of it at different times, which may spoil
the affect you're going for. Though you could just slap a Limitation on it
that once one person breaks out, the whole Time Stop goes down, and everyone
would be free.
'Lynx
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:41:18 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Flying body parts!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
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At 11:23 PM 12/26/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< If your hand is flying around, I can trap it in a jar, and you
can't just
>'turn off' the TK to get it back.>>
>
> OAF: Detached Body Part? It cuts the cost way down (amply
simulatingf the
>"Disadvantage" you mentioned) and the OAF can be trapped. Perhaps
add also the
>"Single Recoverable Charge" so that if the hand *is* trapped...
Well, there
>went your one Charge. ;)
>
Heh. I like it.
The other idea I had a was a 'missile' limitation, which I dimly
remember from some 3rd edition book...Star Hero? In short, a
'missile' is a power with a tangible 'delivery point', which can be
deflected, targeted by TK, grabbed, or otherwise interfered with on
its way to its destination. It also took time to reach its
destination, as opposed to most powers, which have effectively
infinite speed. (Not totally unrealistic considering the short
distances in combat and the speed of things like energy blasts)
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:42:57 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Speed of Stretching...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
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At 11:10 PM 12/26/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> writes:
>
>L> How fast can you stretch? Is it instantaneous? If so, wouldn't a
>L> character with, say, 40" of Stretching be able to do one hell of
a
>L> move-by while standing still? (Stretches 40" in one phase,
anything
>L> hit by that fist is gonna be hurting...)
>
>No. A Stretched limb has no velocity due to Stretching. The limb
may move
>40" "instantaneously", but the character has no velocity due to that
>Stretching.
>
Yes, but it's neat enough effect any good Stretching hero ought to
buy a suitably limited EB to simulate that kind of attack. When is
"The Ultimate Rubber Guy" going to come out? :)
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From: "potroast@theoven" <darkwraith@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: New Years Eve Party
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 01:42:32 -0600
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
----------
> From: Nez Master <nezmaster@ntr.net>
> To: champ-l@omg.org
> Subject: New Years Eve Party
> Date: Friday, December 26, 1997 11:56 PM
>
> Hello anyone and everyone.
> I am holding a new years Eve celebration at my home.
Hey Nez, folks
I apologize if the offer is legit, but I think that it is strange ( and
very unintelligent) to post your own address on the web. I did read about
something like this, and while gamers are nothing like nazi bikers from
hades (well, most of them anyway, but I've meet some 40K peaple that have
scared me) a few gamers cluching their copys of the BBB and beer on the
doorstep of a frat house or worse yet a fundie, fills me with dread or
interest.
--Potroast
A pessimist applied to God for relief.
"Ah, you wish me to restore your hope and cheerfulness." said God
"No," replied the petitioner, "I wish you to create something that would
justify them."
"the world is all created," said God, "but you have overlooked something-
the mortality of the optimist."
--Ambrose Bierce
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 04:26:28 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 10:08 AM 12/27/97 -0800, Opal wrote:
>Some of Steve Longs' work seems to miss the Hero mark, but he also
>gets it right pretty often - and he can write. And, I presume he
>has the time, while, Steve P, Bruce, & George McDonald, do not...
Except that we're talking about The Big Enchilada here, the ISO standard for
HERO system gameplay, if you will. "pretty often" may not cut it. :/
>There's no consensus on STR. It is *NOT* overpriced. It's cost is
>balanced with Power Frameworks. I'm glad it won't be changed, it
>would, litterally, break the system.
Um ... you get literally more than you pay for. It is thus, by definition,
overpriced. Arguments that "it's balanced so that bricks can compete with
energy projectors" are sophistry, because this isn't AD&D -- under the
current system, I can have an energy-projecting brick, AND THERE'S NO REASON
NOT TO! STR pays for itself -- why not jack it up as high as possible?
==
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 04:26:30 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Titanic
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:56 PM 12/27/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> Eh? Something against good acting? He's been nominated for an
>Oscar two years ago and a Golden Globe for this role.
No offense, but under the right circumstances, I could barf on a sidewalk
and win a Golden Globe. It's a publicity tool, not a real accomplishment.
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Speed of Stretching...
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 02:36:48 -0800
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On Friday, December 26, 1997 5:44 PM, Lizard wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>How fast can you stretch? Is it instantaneous? If so, wouldn't a
>character with, say, 40" of Stretching be able to do one hell of a
>move-by while standing still? (Stretches 40" in one phase, anything
>hit by that fist is gonna be hurting...)
>
It isn't worth the damage of a move-by. The kinetic energy of your
body traveling at speed is part of the reason a move by or through
does damage. Which would hurt worse, being hit by a tire traveling at
40", or a car?
Of course, you could use that as the SFX for a HA.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting (again!)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 02:39:35 -0800
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Friday, December 26, 1997 7:57 PM, Earl Kwallek wrote:
<snip>
> Doesn't work!
> Unless you allow the character to buy "Negative Stats" in the VPP
and get
>extra points from them....
>
> Example: Genus has a 13 STR in her Human Form, When an Elephant she
has a
>45 STR, No Problem just buy some Growth, DI, and Str. BUT when she
becomes
>a hummingbird she has a STR of about -20 (NEGATIVE 20) does she get
33 pts
>added to her VPP for buying STR down from her normal (human) STR?
>
No, you add an additional Limitation on the VPP, stating that stats
that are lower in a particular animal go down when the character
assumes that form.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Con Games
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 02:56:23 -0800
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Friday, December 26, 1997 5:59 PM, ErolB1 wrote:
>In a message dated 97-12-24 11:08:39 EST, filkhero@usa.net wrote:
>
>> In the real world, you would not have the slightest idea how much
>> damage got through someone's PD. Boxers frequently talk about how
>> surprised they are that one punch worked, and another didn't, even
>> when fighting the same person. You do not know how much damage you
did
>> in real life, except by guesswork. When was the last time you hit
>> someone, and you knew how many points of STUN you did?
>
>But the boxers *are* able to see if a punch worked or not or else
they
>couldn't even *be* surprised in the first place. Unless the other guy
has some
>way to hide it, one should be able to distinguish the levels
no-stun-got-
>through/some-stun-got-through/con-stunned/ko'd. (OK, if you wanted to
be
>"realistic" about it, you'd have to make a PER roll.)
A good description of the target's reaction should be able to give you
roughly this information.
When you made the initial complaint, you said he wouldn't tell you how
much damage you did. Not, he wouldn't tell you if the target was
affected, or he wouldn't give you a good description of the target's
reaction.
If you can approximate the characteristics and skills of a book
character by reading a book, you should be able to approximate the
degree of damage that the target sustained. If the discription is
good, and you still can't tell, then you wouldn't be able to tell in
real life, anyway.
>>This is especially true of a superhero game, as two targets, one
with
>>completely rigid armor, and one who flexes to absorb damage, might
>>have exactly the same PD, yet feel entirely different to your fist
In
>>one case, the shockwave could do STUN to the target in spite of no
>>give to the armor at all, in the other the
>>failure to absorb all the kinetic energy could damage the target,
but
>>not nearly as much as it feels like. Thus, the most your character
>>should know is how much damage he dished out, not how much
>>he did.
>
>It's especially important for a hero in a standard 4-color superhero
game to
>know how much damage he does. IMHO realistic levels of uncertanity
about how
>much damage a punch does should result in heroes with Codes vs
Killing
>refusing to *ever* throw a punch - it's too dangerous.
The first punch remains as dangerous as ever, either way. If the
attack did BODY, you should be able to judge how much damage you did
by the crushed and bleeding tissue, painful way of moving, etc.
>> Regardless, that was a trivial reason for walking out in the middle
of
>> a game, and unfair to the other players or the GM. If I had been
there
>> and seen you walk out over such a minor point, I would have
thought
>> twice about letting you
>> join one of my games, even if I agreed with you.
>
>And I would think twice about joining a game where the GM considered
it a
>minor point. IMHO the problem of limited bandwidth between players
and GM is
>one of The Big Problems in rpg's - it's one of the reasons why we
*have* rules
>and mechanics and dice in the first place.
>
>By my lights the GM in question was *cheating* on a level roughly
equivalent
>to showing blatent favorism to one of the players. Given the enormous
>differences in philosophy between myself and the GM, staying in that
game
>would have been even more unfair to the other players than walking.
And I still would be reluctant to allow a person to be in one of my
games, after that person abandoned the last game in this manner. When
you sit down at a game, you are making a commitment to the others
there- not just the GM, but the players as well, to stay as long as
you can and try to make it a good game for everyone. Only extremely
improper behavior on the part of the others negates this commitment
and warrants walking out in the middle.
Filksinger
From: ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 11:01:54 +0000
Subject: Re: Soliciting Ideas
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> Option 4: This is the cutest one:
>
> 52 Extra-Dimensional Movement (through time to no-time dimension)
> Adv: Pers Imm(+1/4) UAO(+1) AoE 14"r(+1 1/4) [105 active]
> Lim: 3 charges(-1) Re-transport to normal time in one hour(-0)
>
> IMO, automatic retransport (after some conditions are met) of people
> transported XDM/UAO is a requirement for buying the power and part of the
> special effect of the power.
>
I agree with this approach, generally, but I see it pretty much just
as a jump one hour into the future, without having to go through some
no-time dimension. The automatic retransport requirement is in fact
unnecessary.
Guy
----------------------------------
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com)
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf
and the PANGAEA Project!
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Punching and Stun and such...
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 03:04:34 -0800
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On Friday, December 26, 1997 10:40 PM, Vox Ludator! wrote:
<snip>
>
>I think Erol's critics are missing the point here. The GM refused to
tell
>him AN-Y-THING. Statements like "I prefer descriptives to actual
numbers"
>are moot -- Erol would have happily settled for a descriptive instead
of a
>number, too ... but that's NOT what he was getting. He was getting
NADA.
Well, he did indicate that a natural language description was
thoroughly inadiquate.
However, you are right. I forgot the point when reading his complaints
about the inadequacy of natural language- that he got nothing. I still
woundn't have walked out, as it is unfair to the other players, but my
commitment to the GM to stay would be gone. Refusing to tell me what
my character sees is ludicrous.
My apologies. I might not have walked out, but can simpathize with one
who would.
Filksinger
>Just knowing that you hit or missed, and nothing else, simply isn't
>adequate. I might not have walked out (after all, it being a con
event,
>it's not like I'm getting my money back or anything), but I probably
would
>have been complaining about the screwjob for the rest of the day.
From: "potroast@theoven" <darkwraith@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Speed of Stretching...
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 05:06:48 -0600
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To: champ-l@omg.org
(snip) , anything
> >hit by that fist is gonna be hurting...)
> >
>
>
> It isn't worth the damage of a move-by. The kinetic energy of your
> body traveling at speed is part of the reason a move by or through
> does damage. Which would hurt worse, being hit by a tire traveling at
> 40", or a car?
>
> Of course, you could use that as the SFX for a HA.
>
> Filksinger
you are right on the HA, but I *have* been hit by a tire and it hurt like
hell, of course it was falling ,with half of the axle still attached,
nevermind, might not be a good example
--Potroast
A pessimist applied to God for relief.
"Ah, you wish me to restore your hope and cheerfulness." said God
"No," replied the petitioner, "I wish you to create something that would
justify them."
"the world is all created," said God, "but you have overlooked something-
the mortality of the optimist."
--Ambrose Bierce
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org>
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG>
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:33:06 +0000
Subject: Transform - Was Re: Strange Stuff
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
So Sayeth John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net&>
> That said, Transform needs more resolution in effects. Blinding someone is a
> Major Effect, yes, but it's a small change to the overall body in question.
> Blinding someone is not as powerful as turning them to stone, but in HERO the
> two powers cost the same <go figure>.
I agree. I've been thinking that a more appropriate scheme is that the
amount of transform rolled has to equal the total number of points changed.
(not the difference before and after. Adding both a 20 pt ability and a 20 pt
disad would total 40 pts change, not 0). Since 'blind' is a 20 point disad, it
works out to be as hard as it was before. Giving someone a 60 pt. multipower
gets much more expensive this way. To avoid abuse of cumulative, I would state
that, like aid, the maximum change in points is the maximum you could roll on
the dice. IE 6pts per die of effect bought. Finally, I usually have
cumulating points from the cumulative advantage fade at 5 points per
turn, just like aid. Of course, this can be moved down the time chart with an
advantage. One more advantage I would give is a, at a guess, +1/2 advantage for
'partial transform from cumulative points'. That way, as you pump the points
into turning someone into a frog, they slowly shrink, turn green, and get
warty. If they manage to stop you before you've finished the process and it
'Locks' then the transform undoes at whatever the cumulative fade rate is.
--
Stirling Westrup | Use of the Internet by this poster
sti@cam.org | is not to be construed as a tacit
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 06:19:07 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
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At 12:36 PM 12/26/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> The Spirit rules fully integrated into the system.
>
> I don't know. These may work better staying a seperate add-on of
>optionals.
I'm of a thought, though, that the base and vehicle construction rules
should be more tightly integrated into the main construction rules. TUSV
is already taking a step in that direction. My article on constructing a
superhero group as a separate entity (it's on my website) is another
possible idea.
>> MORE SKILLS! Let's not lump everything under Science/Professional
>> Skill.
>> There's plenty of skills which could be split out and given more
>> detail.
>
> Definately not. This works fine the way it is. If more detail is
>needed, it is provided in various suppliments. See TUMA, TUM, TUSM, Dark
>Champions, etc for examples.
Well, a few of the skills currently defined as KS or PS could easily be
made into full-fledged Skills. Analyze Style, for example, or Zero-G Combat.
>> More diffrentiation among low-point characters. Reasons to avoid the
>> current point breaks (3,5,8) with a use for each point of each
>> attribute.
>
> Hmmm. Maybe suggestions, but don't change characteristic values.
>The only values that need to change are HA and Aid. Oh, and charges at
>the advantage level.
I think there's a viable argument for changing the way Flash works as
well. But on the whole, I agree with you here.
However, I think the original poster (unidentified in your response) was
of a mind that something could be based on some of the Primary
Characteristics other than just Skill Rolls. DEX already has nice
breakpoints based on 3, thanks to OCV/DCV calculations, and combat order is
a good reason to occasionally push above those breakpoints by a pip.
>> UMA manuever design rules (or a stripped down version) folded into
>> the main rules.
>
> This works fine staying in TUMA. The core rules only need the
>pared down maneuver list.
I'm with the other poster; a pared-down version of the maneuver design
rules from TUMA would be good, with the full version in TUMA.
And I'd stick the full maneuver list (minus Ballestra and the ranged
maneuvers) into the core rules, myself.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 06:24:29 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
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At 04:07 PM 12/26/97 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>>Add a new limit "Uses Heroic Combat rules (-10)", sort of like
>>"Normal Characteristic Maxima". Character with this limit (default
>>under Heroic games, no points) pay increased point for weapon
>>familiarty and must buy familiarity with the standard combat
>>manuevers for 1 pt each. (I just made that up...it's an example of a
>>concept, NOT the suggested mechanic!)
>
>Huh? This sounds like a campagne decision, not a character sheet item.
>Why not include "Uses Hit Location tables (-10)" while you are at it?
>Every other superhero just bounces around, but this guy gets head and leg
>injuries.
I agree that it's mainly a campaign decision, but in any event, -10
seems like an obscenely big Limitation. The biggest single Limitation
given in the book is -2. And besides, what would you apply it to? BODY?
However, it might do well to have characters with Normal Characteristic
Maxima pay for Weapon Familiarities even for weapons they pay points for.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 06:29:10 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 08:06 PM 12/26/97 -0600, Bryce Berggren wrote:
>> Q: What changes are planned for 5th Edition?
>> A: We plan to review all of the material that's been published for the Hero
>> System since 1989 and include the best of it (rules, skills, powers, and
>> modifiers) in this edition. The main changes, however, will be in rewriting
>> the rules for added clarity, including more examples, and more detailed
>> explanations of how various powers work. We will not be changing the
cost of
>> Characteristics or the basic combat rules of the game. Point costs of a
very
>> few things may change.
>
>"Not changing the cost of Characteristics" ... which means not changing the
>cost of STR, which means not touching one of only 3 1/2 things you can get
>anywhere near a general consensus on around here as needing to happen (the
>others being clarifying Linked, adding a stratified purchase system to Change
>Environment, and fixing HA's Active Cost, which is connected to STR being so
>cheap).
Changing the cost of STR must be the "1/2" item in your tally, because
while there's little argument over the other three you mention (and indeed
they very probably will happen), there is considerable disagreement over
whether the cost of STR should be changed.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Speed of Stretching...
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Date: 27 Dec 1997 09:30:17 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> writes:
>> No. A Stretched limb has no velocity due to Stretching. The limb may
>> move 40" "instantaneously", but the character has no velocity due to
>> that Stretching.
L> Yes, but it's neat enough effect any good Stretching hero ought to
L> buy a suitably limited EB to simulate that kind of attack. When is
L> "The Ultimate Rubber Guy" going to come out? :)
Sure... but that is another power, and it falls back on the rule of thumb:
if you didn't pay for it, you don't have it.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and
\ kept under refrigeration.
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting (again!)
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Date: 27 Dec 1997 09:34:05 -0500
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>>>>> "EK" == Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us> writes:
>> Shapeshift and a Variable Power Pool.
EK> Doesn't work!
EK> Unless you allow the character to buy "Negative Stats" in the VPP and
EK> get extra points from them....
It does not work because you do not want it to work.
Okay, so you want the pedantic version...
First, the character sells off all his characteristics down to the absolute
minimums. Then he "buys back" his "base form" characteristics in the VPP.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 09:54:50 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting (again!)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>>Shapeshift and a Variable Power Pool.
>>
>
> Doesn't work!
> Unless you allow the character to buy "Negative Stats" in the VPP and get
>extra points from them....
>
> Example: Genus has a 13 STR in her Human Form, When an Elephant she has a
>45 STR, No Problem just buy some Growth, DI, and Str. BUT when she becomes
>a hummingbird she has a STR of about -20 (NEGATIVE 20) does she get 33 pts
>added to her VPP for buying STR down from her normal (human) STR?
Sure, why not? I don't think it's abusive, so long as the character has the
"powers appropriate to the form" limitation on the VPP. Note you could also
simulate this with a "Strength Appropriate to the Form" Physical Limitation.
(Very probably a Frequently, Fully Disadvantage).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:12:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Speed of Stretching...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 26 Dec 1997, Lizard wrote:
> Yes, but it's neat enough effect any good Stretching hero ought to
> buy a suitably limited EB to simulate that kind of attack. When is
> "The Ultimate Rubber Guy" going to come out? :)
SUre. Buy a physical EB (plus some bonus velocity dice) and slap a -1/2
lim of "Can be Blocked" on it. The FX is you strecth over and hit the
guy, but any block maneuver will stop it.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:20:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Con Games
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 26 Dec 1997, Bryce Berggren wrote:
> At 12:47 AM 12/24/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
> >In the real world, you would not have the slightest idea how much
> >damage got through someone's PD. Boxers frequently talk about how
> >surprised they are that one punch worked, and another didn't, even
> >when fighting the same person. You do not know how much damage you did
> >in real life, except by guesswork. When was the last time you hit
> >someone, and you knew how many points of STUN you did?
>
> "Exact accounting," one would not have. "Slightest idea?" In a word,
> bull. If you heard a boxer say they had /no/ idea how a punch would
> affect their opponent, it was either a very bad or very punch-drunk
> boxer--you /also/ hear boxers talk about setting up their opponents
> carefully over the course of an entire round or two.
>
> In any case, I can reasonably tell whether an attack hurt my opponent
> a little, a lot, or not at all, and I haven't been in too many fights
> since grade school. :-/
My fighting experience is limited to full-contact SCA armored combat, with
guys swinging sticks at each other. I can tell you this much, there have
been times when people have been hit pretty solid, and the person hit
never feels the blow. There have also been times where someone has been
hit and hurt, and the person who threw the blow will say something
brillant like 'I didn't hit you *that* hard...'. I for one have removed
my armor and found large bruises, accompanied by 'uh... when did *that*
happen?'. Granted, we are wearing armor, but still, it's not always a
sure thing.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 07:33:24 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Speed of Stretching...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 06:12 PM 12/26/97 -0800, Lizard wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>How fast can you stretch? Is it instantaneous? If so, wouldn't a
>character with, say, 40" of Stretching be able to do one hell of a
>move-by while standing still? (Stretches 40" in one phase, anything
>hit by that fist is gonna be hurting...)
I don't think a Stretcher could do a standing Move By at all, unless he
were to hold out his fist and let the target's velocity do the damage
(e.g., "clothesline").
>I'd say, at a guess, Stretching ought to 'travel' at 6"/phase,
>possibly bought up at +2"/1 points (so 3 points would give you a
>speed of 12" phase).
I've long been of a mind that Stretching should have the same kind of
"momentum" when you turn it on that Shrinking gets when you turn it off --
that is, 1d6 per 1" of Stretching. Thus far I've been representing that as
an optional HA, Linked to Stretching (+1/4).
As for actual velocity, I typically assume that the speed is as far as
the Stretch goes, in the time that it takes for the character's Phase to
happen. A SPD 4 character with 9" stretching thus Stretches at 3"/segment.
(Assuming, of course, that such a calculation is needed.)
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 07:35:15 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Speed of Stretching...
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At 10:42 PM 12/26/97 -0800, Lizard wrote:
>Yes, but it's neat enough effect any good Stretching hero ought to
>buy a suitably limited EB to simulate that kind of attack. When is
>"The Ultimate Rubber Guy" going to come out? :)
From what I understand, Stretching Tricks will be a part of the Ultimate
Shape Changer (or is that Shape Shifter? It keeps changing!). If all goes
well, you should see that before TUSV. (But keep your fingers crossed.)
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 07:37:21 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition (Serious Discussion)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:54 PM 12/26/97 EST, Hero Games wrote:
>
>In a message dated 12/26/97 10:38:33 AM, dmckinne@cmi.csc.com wrote:
>
>>And, I noticed that the 4th ed. Champions Universe wasn't on your list
>>of settings for 5th ed. What is the status of that - many of us DO NOT
>>like the "New Millenium" setting, and want to keep the existing setting.
>>If neither HERO Games or GRG is interested in direct support for that
>>setting, are you willing to post a message allowing free use of it by
>>others while retaining copyright to existing material?
>
>The Champions Universe setting continues to be supported through products
>coming from Gold Rush Games and Hero Plus. This setting was never very
>precise; essentially, we published general purpose superhero material that
>could be used together in one setting (more or less). Continuity and story
>development were not strong.
>
>With both New Millennium material and San Angelo material, there is a much
>stronger emphasis on continuity. Of course, you can use whatever pieces you
>like in your own campaign. Most of the hard-core Champions fans created their
>own campaign, using the bits and pieces we provided in many cases (but not
>all!). We're putting out campaign settings now in an effort to make things
>easier for the new Champions players, and those without the time to create
>their own material.
>
>So there will be "generic" superhero products from Hero Plus, that de facto
>are set in the Champions Universe (such as it is), as well as specific New
>Millennium products and specific San Angelo products. Any of these can and
>should be used as a source of material for your own campaign.
FWIW both Northwest Champions and (obviously) the VOICE sourcebook,
which I will be working on concurrently following TUSV, will be set in the
original Champions Universe.
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:55:48 -0700
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
GoldRushG wrote:
>
> << I go to a Hobby Works in Laurel, but they don't carry much in the way of
> Hero anymore (no demand, or don't know where to get it)>>
>
> Those are both things that *you* the customer, can rectify. If you ask for
> it, it creates demand. And if you tell them where they can order it (as I have
> informed the list readers several times <G>), then the retailer knows where to
> get it. If nothing else, point them to either the Games Quarterly Catalog or
> to our web site (where we have a list of distributors who carry our products,
> just for retailers who claim they don't know from whom to order).
As one on the other end of things than Mark (ie a consumer) I can
testify that this works. When I was trying to get Heroic Adventures 1, I
kept requesting it, and the RPG guy at the book/hobby store I go to had
no clue. I went to the GRG web page, got an order number and a
distributor went in, talked to the Manager (whom I was on good terms
with) gave him the info. I had the book in less than a week. I have also
noted copies of both Heroic Adventures on the shelves after that.
Anyway I guess I just wanted to say that it does work. <Grin>
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 27 Dec 97 08:54:00 -0800
Subject: Re: Too much KnockBack w
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On 12-23-97 dmckinne@cmi.csc.com wrote to All...
d > > G > << Which exceeds the basic superheroic 12DC limit for attacks
d > > G > There isn't any such "limit" that I am aware of. 12DC was
d > > G > average in the BBB, I think, but there certainly isn't a
d > limit...
d > > G >
d > > G > Mark @ GRG
d > > G > ---
d > >
d > > It's a de facto standard... and a very strong one at that - to the
d > > point that it makes it hard to simulate some comics characters
d > > that clearly exceed it (not in a mechanics sense, just that people
d > > won't accept the character...)
d >
d > Huh? I'm with Mark on this one - where are there any "de facto
d > standards"
d > in HERO System?
d >
That's what I meant by 'de facto' - there are no such limmits spelled
out anywhere in the BBB or HSR, but a *lot* of people use them... so
in fact, they are a standard, though there's no official support for
it, and a fair bit of variation...
d > As far as accepting the character, it really varies - 60 active, or 60
d > real (I've seen that), or 12 DC. I built a weather controlling energy
d > projector for a campaign with a 60 AP limit, but made the mistake of
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:58:08 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
>> Better weapon rules. The OCV/DCV rules work great for
>> superheroes;they work less well for Heroic level games, where it's
>> ludicrously easy to become an expert in dozens of weapons. (2 points
>> for a broad group, 5 points for a combat skill level or two, and
>> presto -- master warrior.)
>
> Too big of a change. It would lose the Hero "feel". As it is, a
>couple of points are an awful lot for a normal person.
The problem I think people are running into is that they are starting heroic
level characters with too many points. Starting at 50+50 works so much
better than the suggested 150 points fellows in the book... characters have
lots of room for improvement and are easier to challenge. I personally
prefer lower point values on characters, though.
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 09:23:53 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Soliciting Ideas
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Roger A. Wesson, Jr. wrote:
>
>
> 1)The first is an area-wide Time Stop. I envision the character
> activating the power, and all physical activity stops within the
> area of effect. And it would only affect those in the area at the
> time of activation; those entering area during the duration are
> not affected. Everyone affected would only be able to interact
> with the world via mental/spiritual means; but no physical
> movement at all.
The following suggestions are based on three uses per day, and a one hour
fixed duration, which approximates several SF stories, and as close as
convenient to a 20m radius. These are all hugely expensive, but this is,
in fact, an awesome power, and one that is fully worth the active point
values IMHO. With a single attack, one could reduce most super-teams to
ineffectiveness, assuming you caught them all in the radius.
Option 1:
120 Desolid: SFX time-stopped Affected by Gravitic/Time powers
Advantages: UAO(+1), AoE 9"r(+1) Personal Immunity(+1/4) [130]
Note: those affected may use mental powers w/o paying +2,
but may not move in the normal world. This is a stretch
of the special effect rules, but it works IMO.
Limitations: 3 Cont./hour Charges(-0)
Note that this version allows characters to perceive and remember, but
not to act. The protagonist will also have to have Affects Desolid or a
Time SFX on his powers to affect the victims, but the latter is probably
a gimme.
Option 2:
212 12"r Darkness to all non-mental senses (or special by SFX)
Adv: Personal Immunity(+1/4) [212 active]
Lim: 3 Continuing Charges/one hour(-0)
19 1D6 Entangle SFX time-stopped
Adv: Affects Solid(+2) AoE 12"r(+1 1/2) Pers Imm(+1/4) [47]
Lim: 3 Charges(-1) Linked to Darkness(-1/2)
26 Desolid SFX Affected by Gravitic or Time powers
Lim: Linked to and affects only Entangle(-1/2)
3 Cont Charges/hour(-0)
257 Total
This is a better simulation. After all, time-stopped people should have
no recollection of how or why things happened. Granted, that this costs
as much as a starting 4-color character.
Option 3: I assume a maximum SPD of 8 in the campaign
101 30D6 Suppress SPD: fixed roll 3/die = 90 pts effect
Adv: AoE 11"r(+1) Pers Imm(+1/4) [202 active]
Lim: Not vs Mental Powers(-1/2) or Time Powers(-1/4)
Easily (x8) Dispelled by Time Powers(-1/4)
3 Cont Charges/hour(-0)
This also works, and is much cheaper. The extra 10 pts of effect is much
cheaper than AP, since few people have more than 10 pts of Power Defense
in my experience. You could up this to take care of SPD 12 (w/o power
defense) for 135 real points and a 15" radius.
Option 4: This is the cutest one:
52 Extra-Dimensional Movement (through time to no-time dimension)
Adv: Pers Imm(+1/4) UAO(+1) AoE 14"r(+1 1/4) [105 active]
Lim: 3 charges(-1) Re-transport to normal time in one hour(-0)
IMO, automatic retransport (after some conditions are met) of people
transported XDM/UAO is a requirement for buying the power and part of the
special effect of the power.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 12:26:25 EST
Subject: Re: Punching and Stun and such...
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
In a message dated 97-12-26 23:38:28 EST, GoldRushG@AOL.COM writes:
> << It's especially important for a hero in a standard 4-color superhero game
> to know how much damage he does. IMHO realistic levels of uncertanity about
> how much damage a punch does should result in heroes with Codes vs Killing
> refusing to *ever* throw a punch - it's too dangerous. >>
>
> I completely disagree. The important element in a four-color game (and
> indeed in *any* game) is the *story*. Characters talking "player-talk" is
> silly, IMO. And so is the character "knowing" how much Stun got through
> defenses.
IMO an important feature of a four-color world (or of any highly cinematic
world) is the ability to remain heroic while doing things that would be
profoundly criminal in the real world. Because the game-world and the real
world are so different, any description needs to be tightly tied into the
mechanics in order to prevent dangerous misinterpretations and confusion
between the players and the GM. And if the descriptions do need to be so
tightly defined in game-mechanical terms, why not avoid the chance of
confusion by using game-mechanical descriptions directly, reserving verbal
descriptions to describe the special effects?
> The level of effect you described (No Effect/Some Stun got
> through/Stunned/KO) is pretty darn simple to simulate just using
descriptives
> alone. In fact, you can expand on your own example and provide a wealth of
> information without actually quoting exact numbers.
If and only if the players and GM define or 'benchmark' the descriptives ahead
of time. Otherwise the players and GM risk developing diverging views about
what's "really" happening in the game world. And again, if you go to the
trouble of benchmarking the descriptives, why not just use the game-mechanical
terms? This leaves the descriptive free to describe the special effects.
> For instance, how about:
> Attack not noticed (0 Stun and painfully obvious)
> "He doesn't even know he was hit. He felt nothing."
As GM, I might very well use this to describe a blow that didn't get even
halfway through the defenses. If I don't tell you this, how will you, as a
player, know this?
> Felt but trivial effect (A few Pts. of Stun)
> "He felt the blow and his head turned when you hit him, but he just
smiles
> at you."
As GM, I might very well use this to describe a blow that didn't get through
the defenses. If I don't tell you this, how will you, as a player, know this?
[further examples snipped]
> As you can see, I like the "cinematic" style of GMing. ;)
"Cinematic" is a description of the way the game-world *works* not a
description of the way the game-world is *described*.
What I see is that you like the "theatrical" style of GMing :-)
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 27 Dec 97 09:36:02 -0800
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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To: champ-l@omg.org
l > >> The Spirit rules fully integrated into the system.
l > >
l > > I don't know. These may work better staying a seperate add-on of
l > >optionals.
l > >
l > <shrug>They're useful in most non-superheroic genres, esp. fantasy.
l > And they provide a method of doing something hard to do in Hero --
l > mind transfer. Still, they might be too non-mainstream for most
l > purposes.
l >
They're also imballanced and clash with the core system...
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 27 Dec 97 09:40:04 -0800
Subject: Flying body parts!
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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To: champ-l@omg.org
l > From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
l > Subject: Flying body parts!
l > OK, here's one:
l > How to do character who can seperate their body parts under hero?
l >
l > TK and stretching are obvious answers, but each has a slight problem.
l >
Stretching would be an acceptable way to do it. Your GM might have
you take 'Indirect' to represent that you can't be attacked at the
hexes inbetween, or it might go under F/X - you can't stretch
yourself out to catch someone or do a spectacular Sweep manuever
either...
l > Plus, you also gain a physical limitation when the power is in use --
l > no hands (or legs, or eyes (clairvoyance), etc).
l >
l > Ideas?
l >
Duplication would be the obvious way to go, if you want the parts
to be able to act independently, and become widely sepparated.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 27 Dec 97 09:43:06 -0800
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
w > From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
w > Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
w >
w > >>> The Spirit rules fully integrated into the system.
w > >>
w > >> I don't know. These may work better staying a seperate add-on of
w > >>optionals.
w > I think they would fit into a section like the Automaton rules,
w > vehicle
w > rules or computer rules fit in. I assume that Vehicle rules will
w > still be
w > included in the main rule book, even with the TUSV under separate
w > development.
Actually, *none* of those mesh well with the system... they feel
like they've been grafted on (like the Fuzion Mekton plug-in).
I'd rather see the Automaton, Vehicle, and Computer rules dropped,
than the Spirit rules added....
(personal prejudice, as someone who worked on the Incomplete Rules)
:)
Opal
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 09:43:15 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Extra Time
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Brian Wong wrote:
>
>
> The issue is MOOT.
>
> After all, it's a limitation. And one of the limitations in the book is
> 'limited'. So any limitation can be interpreted as a variation of 'limited'
> and assigned a value by the GM.
>
> So, the issue is MOOT.
>
> The only case where these things are not MOOT by default is
> with advantages, since the book lacks an 'advantaged' advantage. So only
> in those cases does an 'official' ruling have any concept of weight.
I take exception to this position. Certain limitations are common enough
to have been worth including in the book, and there *should* be a
"standard, official" method for running each of those limitations, if
only as a starting point for discussion between a GM and players. Of
course, any one of us can run it the way we want, and there are special
effects best described by each possible interpretation, but so what?
The entire point of having published rules is to have a set of common
reference points that players and GMs can share. If the GM chooses to
depart from those reference points, then well and good -- it is a house
rule, campaign guideline or whatever. In any event, it is *certainly
not* MOOT for use to compare notes on how we handle the limitations --
perhaps one or more of us will read something that changes his or her
mind.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 27 Dec 97 09:51:08 -0800
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
l > From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
l > Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
l > >
l > In superheroic games, totally true. Richard Reeds has PS:Scientist!
l > at 21-, and he can whip up a growth serum (biochemistry), build a ray
l > gun (electronics), and repair a faster-than-life drive
l > (Pseudophysics) with equal skill. But in heroic level games,
l > guidelines for what is what become more important.
l >
l > There's a real difference in character building decisions if a
l > scientists needs to buy one skill or ten. Such things do NOT fit in
l > four-color games, but do matter in Heroic games.
I was thinking about this, and thought that a skill hierarchy would
be good. Going from very broad, expensive skills (like in 1st Ed
Hero), to high-detail skills. The GM would decide how far up the
he hierarchy you could go based on 'realims.'
For instance you could have a 10pt 'Scientist' Skill for 4-color
Reed Richards types. Several 5 or 3 pt skill 'underneath it'
(Pysicist, Doctor, Engineer...), and the detailed Sciences for
more realistic characters...
l > My bias is towards Heroic-level, non-superhero games, so, naturally,
l > I want to see more support for those type of games in any revised
l > rulebook. A lot of what I want is NOT necessary or appropriate for
l > four-color games (along with hit location, bleeding rules, etc), and
l > I freely admit this.
Yep, I'd like to see Hero subdivided into a quick-to-pick-up-and-run
Instant Hero, a 'complete' game - like the 4th Ed core rules, and an
'Advanced' game - with all kinds of nit-picky 'realistic' rules -
like bleeding, making sure normals go splat when they jump off tall
buildings, etc...
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 27 Dec 97 09:53:10 -0800
Subject: Speed of Stretching...
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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To: champ-l@omg.org
l > From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
l > Subject: Speed of Stretching...
l >
l > How fast can you stretch? Is it instantaneous? If so, wouldn't a
l > character with, say, 40" of Stretching be able to do one hell of a
l > move-by while standing still? (Stretches 40" in one phase, anything
l > hit by that fist is gonna be hurting...)
l >
Yes it's pretty much instant, but no, it's not a Movement Power
so you can't get moveby/through bonuses. Rather a shame really,
that could help blance the power's current cost. BTW 40" Stretching =
200pts... you *should* get something for that...
l > I'd say, at a guess, Stretching ought to 'travel' at 6"/phase,
l > possibly bought up at +2"/1 points (so 3 points would give you a
l > speed of 12" phase).
l >
l > Doing the 'fast stretching fist attack' could be bought as
l > follows:10d6 EB vs. PD, Does 1d6 per hex travelled up to 10d6 max (so
l > the fist builds up speed as it extends...if you pound someone 2 hexes
l > away, it's a mere 2d6, 8 hexes away, 8d6, etc. I'd call this a -1
l > limitation, as it makes the power virtually useless at close
l > range...)
l >
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 27 Dec 97 09:57:12 -0800
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting (again
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> Example: Genus has a 13 STR in her Human Form, When an Elephant she
> has a
> 45 STR, No Problem just buy some Growth, DI, and Str. BUT when she
> becomes
> a hummingbird she has a STR of about -20 (NEGATIVE 20) does she get 33
> pts
> added to her VPP for buying STR down from her normal (human) STR?
>
Take a physical limitation: Cannot exert more STR than the form
she assumes would have. BTW, you'd still have your normal STR,
so your figured characteristics are the same, you just can't
lift more than a hummingbird.. or do any kind of damage with
a move through....
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 12:58:23 EST
Subject: Re: Some sad news
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< BTW: I saw a poster for the Usagi RPG and Sengoku books. >>
Neat. Can I ask where you saw it? The only poster project I know of that we
were involved in incvluded a number of other small companies' products in it.
Can I ask where you saw it and what else (if anything) was on it?
<< That Sengoku cover ROCKS! >>
Thank you. We're pretty fond of it, too.
Folks, just in case you still haven't seen the Sengoku cover illo, drop by
our web page and go to the Sengoku page. *That's* the caliber of art we want
for the new Hero System 5th Ed. and the Champions 5th Ed. books!
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 12:58:35 EST
Subject: Re: Punching and Stun and such...
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
<< Erol would have happily settled for a descriptive instead of a number, too
... but that's NOT what he was getting. He was getting NADA.>>
Well, in that case the Gm must certainly be flogged! :D
Mark @ GRG
From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:03:29 EST
Subject: Re: Con Games
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
In a message dated 97-12-27 06:19:04 EST, filkhero@USA.Net wrote:
> On Friday, December 26, 1997 5:59 PM, ErolB1 wrote:
>
>
> >In a message dated 97-12-24 11:08:39 EST, filkhero@usa.net wrote:
> >
> >> In the real world, you would not have the slightest idea how much
> >> damage got through someone's PD. Boxers frequently talk about how
> >> surprised they are that one punch worked, and another didn't, even
> >> when fighting the same person. You do not know how much damage you
> did
> >> in real life, except by guesswork. When was the last time you hit
> >> someone, and you knew how many points of STUN you did?
> >
> >But the boxers *are* able to see if a punch worked or not or else
> they
> >couldn't even *be* surprised in the first place. Unless the other guy
> has some
> >way to hide it, one should be able to distinguish the levels
> no-stun-got-
> >through/some-stun-got-through/con-stunned/ko'd. (OK, if you wanted to
> be
> >"realistic" about it, you'd have to make a PER roll.)
>
>
> A good description of the target's reaction should be able to give you
> roughly this information.
If and only if the GM and players had agreed to 'benchmarks' wrt what a given
description meant in game-mechanics terms. If you are going to make
descriptions into part of the mechanics in this way, then why not just use
game-mechanical descriptions directly and reserve natural-language
descriptions for describing the special effects?
>
> When you made the initial complaint, you said he wouldn't tell you how
> much damage you did. Not, he wouldn't tell you if the target was
> affected, or he wouldn't give you a good description of the target's
> reaction.
I don't make much of a distinction between the two: A "good description"
*does* tell me (approxmately) how much damage I did.
>
> If you can approximate the characteristics and skills of a book
> character by reading a book, you should be able to approximate the
> degree of damage that the target sustained. If the discription is
> good, and you still can't tell, then you wouldn't be able to tell in
> real life, anyway.
If we both read a book and try to approximate the characteristics and skills
of a book character, I am likely to come up with one set of values and you
with another. IMHO it would be Bad For The Game to try to use both values at
once in a game-world.
Furthermore books are long. IME, nailing down what my character perceived
without refering to the game mechanics would require a discussion as long as
this thread. IME such long discussions in the middle of a game tend to kill
pacing - and ultimately the game itself.
>
> >>This is especially true of a superhero game, as two targets, one
> with
> >>completely rigid armor, and one who flexes to absorb damage, might
> >>have exactly the same PD, yet feel entirely different to your fist
> In
> >>one case, the shockwave could do STUN to the target in spite of no
> >>give to the armor at all, in the other the
> >>failure to absorb all the kinetic energy could damage the target,
> but
> >>not nearly as much as it feels like. Thus, the most your character
> >>should know is how much damage he dished out, not how much
> >>he did.
> >
> >It's especially important for a hero in a standard 4-color superhero
> game to
> >know how much damage he does. IMHO realistic levels of uncertanity
> about how
> >much damage a punch does should result in heroes with Codes vs
> Killing
> >refusing to *ever* throw a punch - it's too dangerous.
>
>
> The first punch remains as dangerous as ever, either way. If the
> attack did BODY, you should be able to judge how much damage you did
> by the crushed and bleeding tissue, painful way of moving, etc.
Would I be able to judge exactly or approximately? :-)
>
> >> Regardless, that was a trivial reason for walking out in the middle
> of
> >> a game, and unfair to the other players or the GM. If I had been
> there
> >> and seen you walk out over such a minor point, I would have
> thought
> >> twice about letting you
> >> join one of my games, even if I agreed with you.
> >
> >And I would think twice about joining a game where the GM considered
> it a
> >minor point. IMHO the problem of limited bandwidth between players
> and GM is
> >one of The Big Problems in rpg's - it's one of the reasons why we
> *have* rules
> >and mechanics and dice in the first place.
> >
> >By my lights the GM in question was *cheating* on a level roughly
> equivalent
> >to showing blatent favorism to one of the players. Given the enormous
> >differences in philosophy between myself and the GM, staying in that
> game
> >would have been even more unfair to the other players than walking.
>
>
> And I still would be reluctant to allow a person to be in one of my
> games, after that person abandoned the last game in this manner.
And you would be right to do so, just as that other person should be reluctant
to allow you in one of his games. When playing styles are that incompatible,
it's better not to try to play at all.
> When
> you sit down at a game, you are making a commitment to the others
> there- not just the GM, but the players as well, to stay as long as
> you can and try to make it a good game for everyone. Only extremely
> improper behavior on the part of the others negates this commitment
> and warrants walking out in the middle.
My judgment was that the GM was acting extremely improperly, although the
other players were not. My judgment was also that my staying would result in a
worse game for the other players than my leaving. Do you reject this as
impossible? Do you think it's *always* best to stay, no matter how angry you
are, how incompatible your play-style is and therefore how disruptive you
would be?
>
> Filksinger
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 27 Dec 97 10:08:14 -0800
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
g > From: Bryce Berggren <ghost@softfarm.com>
g > Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
g > > A: The main writer is Steve Long, well-known to Hero
g > > of Dark Champions, Ultimate Martial Artist, and many
g >
g > Cute. We argue for nearly a month here on whether or not he even
g > understands
g > THIS edition of the system well enough to write for it, and
g > they're letting him
g > write the next edition.
g >
Some of Steve Longs' work seems to miss the Hero mark, but he also
gets it right pretty often - and he can write. And, I presume he
has the time, while, Steve P, Bruce, & George McDonald, do not...
One of the smartest things Steve Long did was to solicit comments
on Ultimate Mentalist from the list (I seem to remember it being
about TK). I hope he'll do the same with 5th ed.
g > "Not changing the cost of Characteristics" ... which means not
g > changing the
g > cost of STR, which means not touching one of only 3 1/2 things you can
g > anywhere near a general consensus on around here as needing to happen
There's no consensus on STR. It is *NOT* overpriced. It's cost is
balanced with Power Frameworks. I'm glad it won't be changed, it
would, litterally, break the system.
g > (the
g > others being clarifying Linked, adding a stratified purchase system to
g > Change
g > Environment, and fixing HA's Active Cost, which is connected to STR
g > being so
g > cheap).
g >
Now, there's some consensus... :)
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Michael Surbrook\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 97 18:08:54
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Some sad news
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 26 Dec 1997 16:28:03 -0500 (EST), Michael Surbrook wrote:
>As some of you probably kow, I am a big fan of Hong Kong cinema and
>Japanese samurai films.
>
>Thus, it saddens me to report that Toshiro Mifune, one of the greatest
>actors to come out of Japan, died Wensday at the age of 77.
>
>He made over 130 films, include the Seven Samurai (basis for the
>Magnificent Seven) and Yojimbo (basis for A Fistfull of Dollars and Last
>Man Standing), as well as a number of period samurai films by Akira
>Kurasawa. He also portrayed Miyamoto Mushashi, Japan's greatest swordsman
>in a series of three films.
>
>Western movie viewers my know him from Red Sun, Midway and the TV
>mini-series Shogun.
>
>He will be missed.
More, he will be remembered.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 11:23:31 -0700
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Re: Punching and Stun and such...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
GoldRushG wrote:
>
> << Erol would have happily settled for a descriptive instead of a number, too
> ... but that's NOT what he was getting. He was getting NADA.>>
>
> Well, in that case the Gm must certainly be flogged! :D
Yes, but he probably wouldn't let us know how much stun and body he
took.
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:38:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Some sad news
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 27 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote:
> << BTW: I saw a poster for the Usagi RPG and Sengoku books. >>
>
> Neat. Can I ask where you saw it? The only poster project I know of that we
> were involved in incvluded a number of other small companies' products in it.
> Can I ask where you saw it and what else (if anything) was on it?
At a game store called "Dream Wizards" in Rockville MD. It was taped up
to the side of a shelf rack. It saw it as I was getting ready to leave.
The top half had the Sengoku cover and some text, the bottom had the Usagi
Yojimbo cover. Cool mini-poster. Hey, where can I get one?
> Folks, just in case you still haven't seen the Sengoku cover illo, drop by
> our web page and go to the Sengoku page. *That's* the caliber of art we want
> for the new Hero System 5th Ed. and the Champions 5th Ed. books!
Cool. If there is one thing the impressed me about Shadowrun, it was the
art.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 12:56:36 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Titanic
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> Sorry, it has Leonardo de Cappichino in it. I refuse on general
> principles.
Eh? Something against good acting? He's been nominated for an
Oscar two years ago and a Golden Globe for this role.
Now, Chris O'Donnel on the other hand . . .
-Tim Gilberg
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 11:29:53 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Breakable Armor
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I have recently decided that I am under-GMing the Focus limitation.
To this end, I have taken a close look at the Focus rules, and I am now
perplexed by something that should be trivial.
Consider a character with
20 10PD/10ED Armor, OIF Body Armor [30 active points]
14 5PD/5ED Force Field, OIF Shield [20 active points]
Both Foci are technological objects, hence breakable. This is a
straightforward and not uncommon set of powers, although I agree that it
is not the book recommendation for a shield.
1) Per HSR p. 106, a focus that provides defenses is automatically hit by
any attack that hits the character. I interpret this to mean hitting the
character's DCV (or the DCV of the Hex, or whatever applies).
2) Per HSR p.105, a focus that provides defenses is entitled to the
*greater* of the relevant defenses it provides or active points/5. For
the Armor, this would be 10 ED or PD, and 5 ED or PD for the Shield.
Presumably, if a BODY Drain were done, the Armor would have 6 Power
Defense and the Shield 4.
3) Per HSR p.106, a focus is outside of any defenses that it does not
provide. Thus, our Armor does not profit from the character's intrinsic
PD or ED, nor from his Shield, nor vice versa.
4) Per HSR p.105, if a focus with one power, such as either of the
above, is hit by as little BODY as its defenses + 1, it is destroyed.
Conclusion, the above character is hit by 3D6K rolling 11 BODY. The
Character takes no BODY, since he has 15rDEF. As for the foci:
by 1) Both are hit by the attack.
by 2 and 3) The Armor has 10rDEF, and so takes 1 BODY.
The Shield has 5rDEF, and so takes 6 BODY.
by 4) Both foci are destroyed.
Our character now is likely to wish he had purchased:
15 10/10 Armor, Ablative [30 Active]
10 5/5 Force Field, Ablative [20 Active]
The Armor and Shield as SFX. The character is hit with 11K. This
exceeds both the Armor and the Shield, so both now drop one notch down
the activation chart to 15-, which is scary, but less so than having no
rDEF. And, he saved nine points to boot!
This cannot possibly be the book intention, yet this is the effect of a
straightforward application of the rules on pp 105 and 106. I don't
think that the above suffers from any "well-chosen example" problems. I
hope that I am missing something; otherwise, I will have to come up with
some house rules for breakable foci.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
From: Doc Tough <DocTough@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:34:35 EST
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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Doc sez...
Thank you Hero and Goldrush for the news on the H5 project. This is
wonderful news and will go a long way settling the troubled waters. The
announcement was very well worded and showwed that much thought was put into
it. Again, thank you.
Also good to hear is that the list will be able to make proposals through
the questionnaire. As a very long time playerr of the system, it will be
great to be able to possibly contribute to the new edition.
On a general observation, the new addition should be a compilation and
clarification of ALL the rules presented without going into the depth that the
Ultimate series should be used. This would mean adding the Spirit rules
(which I find have been very useful for a celestial character in my campaign),
cleaned up Venom rules and even the interesting Incomplete rules from the
List.
Doc Tough
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 12:00:51 -0800
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On Saturday, December 27, 1997 3:26 AM, Bryce Berggren wrote:
<snip>
>
>> Q: What changes are planned for 5th Edition?
>> A: We plan to review all of the material that's been published for
the Hero
>> System since 1989 and include the best of it (rules, skills,
powers, and
>> modifiers) in this edition. The main changes, however, will be in
rewriting
>> the rules for added clarity, including more examples, and more
detailed
>> explanations of how various powers work. We will not be changing
the cost of
>> Characteristics or the basic combat rules of the game. Point costs
of a very
>> few things may change.
>
>"Not changing the cost of Characteristics" ... which means not
changing the
>cost of STR, which means not touching one of only 3 1/2 things you
can get
>anywhere near a general consensus on around here as needing to happen
(the
>others being clarifying Linked, adding a stratified purchase system
to Change
>Environment, and fixing HA's Active Cost, which is connected to STR
being so
>cheap).
What general consensus is that? Most of the people who responded to
that idea said no. In fact, if HERO did that, I would leave for
Fuzion. If I had to change that much on all my previous characters, I
might as well use the Fuzion characteristics, which are one of the
only things I think they did better in Fuzion than HERO.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 12:02:57 -0800
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On Saturday, December 27, 1997 7:15 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
<snip>
>
> I agree that it's mainly a campaign decision, but in any
event, -10
>seems like an obscenely big Limitation. The biggest single
Limitation
>given in the book is -2. And besides, what would you apply it to?
BODY?
> However, it might do well to have characters with Normal
Characteristic
>Maxima pay for Weapon Familiarities even for weapons they pay points
for.
>
The negative ten is supposed to represent a Disadvantage, not a
Limitation.
Filksinger
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:14:17 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Soliciting Ideas
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ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net wrote:
>
> > [a solution to Time Stop]
> >
> > 52 Extra-Dimensional Movement (through time to no-time dimension)
> > Adv: Pers Imm(+1/4) UAO(+1) AoE 14"r(+1 1/4) [105 active]
> > Lim: 3 charges(-1) Re-transport to normal time in one hour(-0)
> >
> > IMO, automatic retransport (after some conditions are met) of people
> > transported XDM/UAO is a requirement for buying the power and part of the
> > special effect of the power.
> >
>
> I agree with this approach, generally, but I see it pretty much just
> as a jump one hour into the future, without having to go through some
> no-time dimension. The automatic retransport requirement is in fact
> unnecessary.
Your point would be valid if there were *no* way to affect the people who
are Time Stopped, and vice versa. Per spec, the Time Stop does not
affect Mental Powers or powers with a Spirit basis (presumably Spirit is
eternal or something of the sort). Now, one may argue that this is not a
proper description of Time Stop, but that is what the original poster
wanted.
The "no-time" dimension that I posited would presumably regard all mental
powers as X-dim by default. Moreover, if the person possessing the power
wanted to affect the stopped beings (which is a frequent purpose of the
effect), then he should purchase Transdimensional on his STR and whatever
other powers he requires.
For point-compression, a Multipower Reserve could be linked to the XDM,
with slots containing X-dim versions of various powers. Another option
would be to Link the X-dim advantage to the XDM -- these powers could not
then be used to get around someone *else's* Time Stop. Since the X-dim
advantage would be the single-dimension type anyway, and since Time Stops
are probably not thick on the ground, I question whether the limitation
would be worth -1/2, or even -1/4, but it is an option.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Punching and Stun and such...
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:27:10 -0800
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On Saturday, December 27, 1997 8:51 AM, ErolB1 wrote:
<snip>
>IMO an important feature of a four-color world (or of any highly
cinematic
>world) is the ability to remain heroic while doing things that would
be
>profoundly criminal in the real world.
If my players do something that would be profoundly criminal in the
real world, they may very well be arrested. What "profoundly criminal"
behavior do you feel is necesary for cinematic worlds?
<snip>
>
>> For instance, how about:
>
>> Attack not noticed (0 Stun and painfully obvious)
>> "He doesn't even know he was hit. He felt nothing."
>
>As GM, I might very well use this to describe a blow that didn't get
even
>halfway through the defenses. If I don't tell you this, how will you,
as a
>player, know this?
I, as a player, shouldn't. If I didn't hurt him, there is no reason to
tell me how much I failed to hurt him by. What is the difference that
a normal would notice between punching someone with a 30 DEF and an 80
DEF? None that I can determine-- he simply has no idea how thoroughly
he was stopped.
>> Felt but trivial effect (A few Pts. of Stun)
>> "He felt the blow and his head turned when you hit him, but he
just
>smiles
>> at you."
>
>As GM, I might very well use this to describe a blow that didn't get
through
>the defenses. If I don't tell you this, how will you, as a player,
know this?
This one I agree on. He felt it could literally mean he _felt_ it, not
that it did damage. He might feel a feather duster, too.
>[further examples snipped]
>
>> As you can see, I like the "cinematic" style of GMing. ;)
>
>"Cinematic" is a description of the way the game-world *works* not a
>description of the way the game-world is *described*.
>
>What I see is that you like the "theatrical" style of GMing :-)
>
Uh, what's the difference between cinematic and theatrical? Cinematic
has more people watching, makes more money, and has better special
effects, but theatrical is live?:)
While I apologize for not recognizing that in the original description
you were clearly not being given information that your character
should have, a "descriptive" style can work fine. Just make certain to
include calibration. "What do you mean, he felt it? Did it hurt?" "It
looks like it hurt a little, yes, but not much." This can work well
for both types of players and GMs. It may not be your preferred style,
but it is a perfectly good one, and can give you information as good
as your character should have.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Con Games
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:38:00 -0800
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On Saturday, December 27, 1997 9:13 AM, ErolB1 wrote:
>In a message dated 97-12-27 06:19:04 EST, filkhero@USA.Net wrote:
>
>> On Friday, December 26, 1997 5:59 PM, ErolB1 wrote:
<snip>
>> When
>> you sit down at a game, you are making a commitment to the others
>> there- not just the GM, but the players as well, to stay as long
as
>> you can and try to make it a good game for everyone. Only
extremely
>> improper behavior on the part of the others negates this
commitment
>> and warrants walking out in the middle.
>
>My judgment was that the GM was acting extremely improperly, although
the
>other players were not. My judgment was also that my staying would
result in a
>worse game for the other players than my leaving. Do you reject this
as
>impossible? Do you think it's *always* best to stay, no matter how
angry you
>are, how incompatible your play-style is and therefore how disruptive
you
>would be?
No. I am afraid I got bogged down in other points, and missed the
important one-- that the GM was refusing to allow your character to
use his senses to get any idea of what effect you were having. Not,
"He winces, shakes his head, and comes for you," which would be a bit
skimpy, but I would probably find acceptable (though I might ask for a
bit more detail).
Given that the GM told you _nothing_, even when pressed, was a
sufficient reason for leaving. I might not have, but it was still
sufficient.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Transform - Was Re: Strange Stuff
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:43:00 -0800
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On Saturday, December 27, 1997 9:45 AM, Stirling Westrup wrote:
<snip>
>One more advantage I would give is a, at a guess, +1/2 advantage for
>'partial transform from cumulative points'. That way, as you pump the
points
>into turning someone into a frog, they slowly shrink, turn green, and
get
>warty. If they manage to stop you before you've finished the process
and it
>'Locks' then the transform undoes at whatever the cumulative fade
rate is.
Yes, I would like this. One of my favorite movie scenes showing the
power of the villain was in Willow, in which a Transformation settled
into place around an army.
"That's not an army. They're PIGS."
Filksinger
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:10:06 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S
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At 09:51 AM 12/27/97 -0800, Opal wrote:
>I was thinking about this, and thought that a skill hierarchy would
>be good. Going from very broad, expensive skills (like in 1st Ed
>Hero), to high-detail skills. The GM would decide how far up the
>he hierarchy you could go based on 'realims.'
>
>For instance you could have a 10pt 'Scientist' Skill for 4-color
>Reed Richards types. Several 5 or 3 pt skill 'underneath it'
>(Pysicist, Doctor, Engineer...), and the detailed Sciences for
>more realistic characters...
>
Yup. In comci books, you have "Scientists" -- maybe with some
specialty that doesn't really matter:You have biologists repairing
spaceships all the time. But in a 'hard science' game, whether Dr.
Jones studied astrophysics or chemistry is very important to the
scenario. Likewise, in some fantasy games, you have 'KS:Magic', while
in other games, you need 'Necromancy', 'Sorcery', etc.
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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 17:32:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Titanic
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On Sat, 27 Dec 1997, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> > Sorry, it has Leonardo de Cappichino in it. I refuse on general
> > principles.
>
>
> Eh? Something against good acting? He's been nominated for an
> Oscar two years ago and a Golden Globe for this role.
1) I have no interest to see the movie. (The Replacement Killers OTOH...)
2) Go read Gen 13 Bootleg "Grunge - The Movie" to fully understand that
line.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 17:37:13 EST
Subject: Re: Punching and Stun and such...
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<<, If and only if the players and GM define or 'benchmark' the descriptives
ahead
of time. Otherwise the players and GM risk developing diverging views about
what's "really" happening in the game world. >>
And this is a bad thing? How often do thrtee people perceive the same exact
thing in different ways? All the time! I can tell you from years of taking
statements and writing police reports that you *never* get the same story from
tow people if they are interviewed separately. That's just an inherent part of
human perception and interpretation. As such, I see nothing wrong with it in a
game. Eventually, the players will learn to interpret your descriptions. No
big thing. But I agree it is up to the GM to be consistent and fair in his
descriptions.
<< "Cinematic" is a description of the way the game-world *works* not a
description of the way the game-world is *described*. >>
You are thinking in too narrow terms (i.e., in gaming convention). A
cinematic style can be achieved in describing things. Your terminology, use of
"cut scenes" (or scenes in which the PCs are not a part of), epilogues, and so
on, can all be used to good effect, IMO. But they can also be used with games
that are, IMHO, not cionematic at all, like Call of Cthulhu, Aftermath, and so
on.
It all comes down to a matter of preferred style, as you alluded to.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 17:51:25 EST
Subject: Re: Some sad news
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< The top half had the Sengoku cover and some text, the bottom had the Usagi
Yojimbo cover. Cool mini-poster. Hey, where can I get one?>>
Oh! <LOL> They must have posted our two flyers, one atop the other. It's
not a poster, per se, but rather two separate 8.5x11" color flyers.
If you want one (or both) send a SASE and we'll send them your way. We have
a few left.
Mark @ GRG
From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 18:48:53 -0600
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-----Original Message-----
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Saturday, December 27, 1997 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S
>At 10:08 AM 12/27/97 -0800, Opal wrote:
>>Some of Steve Longs' work seems to miss the Hero mark, but he also
>>gets it right pretty often - and he can write. And, I presume he
>>has the time, while, Steve P, Bruce, & George McDonald, do not...
>
>Except that we're talking about The Big Enchilada here, the ISO standard
for
>HERO system gameplay, if you will. "pretty often" may not cut it. :/
>
>>There's no consensus on STR. It is *NOT* overpriced. It's cost is
>>balanced with Power Frameworks. I'm glad it won't be changed, it
>>would, litterally, break the system.
>
>Um ... you get literally more than you pay for. It is thus, by definition,
>overpriced. Arguments that "it's balanced so that bricks can compete with
>energy projectors" are sophistry, because this isn't AD&D -- under the
>current system, I can have an energy-projecting brick, AND THERE'S NO
REASON
WHYT THE *&^% SHOULDN'T we be able to make a energy projecting brick.
Strength does quite a bit for you, but I don't see any compelling reasons to
make it more expensive. If you want to jack up the price for STR in your
game, I don't have a problem with it. It's your game, and I'm not going to
be playing with it anyway.
>NOT TO! STR pays for itself -- why not jack it up as high as possible?
This little thing you should learn about called 'Character Concept.' If bozo
says I wan't a flying invincable energy projecting brick speedster from the
planet Krypton, you have every right as GM to just say no. If you can't say
no to your players, you'll get screwed over with abusive PCs not matter what
the rules say.
----Marc "Kitsune" Seebass
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Armored Heroes (OIF vs. OIHID)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 19:52:26 -0500 (EST)
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I have a quick question for you veterins out there: which way is
generally more effective for simulating armored heroes (like Iron
Man), an OIHID on all of the powers, or an OIF Focus? That is to
say, which of these two limitations better represent the limitations
that Iron Man, et. al., face in the comic books?
-Eric
X-Sender: matthew@mail.mactyre.net (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 17:06:30 -0800
From: Matthew Mactyre <matthew@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S
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At 10:08 AM 12/27/97 -0800, Opal wrote:
>There's no consensus on STR. It is *NOT* overpriced. It's cost is
>balanced with Power Frameworks. I'm glad it won't be changed, it
>would, litterally, break the system.
I have to agree here. Strength is not broken. I would really hate to
seen any changes in the way it is handled in the game.
Matthew
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Matthew Mactyre
mcm@mactyre.net
http://www.mactyre.net
Join us on IRC Dalnet #herochat
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:16:41 -0500
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood
Subject: Play by Email
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
I am interested in Champs Play by EMail. Where can I get into a game or
find guidelines for playing/running such a game?
Kev
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 19:17:58 -0600
From: A Kirkland <ajk117@mail.usask.ca>
Subject: Re: Breakable Armor
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At 11:29 97/12/27 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:
>I have recently decided that I am under-GMing the Focus limitation.
>To this end, I have taken a close look at the Focus rules, and I am now
>perplexed by something that should be trivial.
>
>Consider a character with
>
>20 10PD/10ED Armor, OIF Body Armor [30 active points]
>14 5PD/5ED Force Field, OIF Shield [20 active points]
>
>Both Foci are technological objects, hence breakable. This is a
>straightforward and not uncommon set of powers, although I agree that it
>is not the book recommendation for a shield.
>
>1) Per HSR p. 106, a focus that provides defenses is automatically hit by
>any attack that hits the character. I interpret this to mean hitting the
>character's DCV (or the DCV of the Hex, or whatever applies).
But on p104/105, it states that an inaccessable focus can Not be hit in
combat.
[ ...snip... ]
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 19:40:13 -0600
From: A Kirkland <ajk117@mail.usask.ca>
Subject: Re: Too much KnockBack w
X-Sender: ajk117@mail.usask.ca
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At 08:54 97/12/27 -0800, Opal wrote:
> On 12-23-97 dmckinne@cmi.csc.com wrote to All...
>
> d > > G > << Which exceeds the basic superheroic 12DC limit for attacks
> d > > G > There isn't any such "limit" that I am aware of. 12DC was
> d > > G > average in the BBB, I think, but there certainly isn't a
> d > limit...
> d > > G >
> d > > G > Mark @ GRG
> d > > G > ---
> d > >
> d > > It's a de facto standard... and a very strong one at that - to the
> d > > point that it makes it hard to simulate some comics characters
> d > > that clearly exceed it (not in a mechanics sense, just that people
> d > > won't accept the character...)
> d >
> d > Huh? I'm with Mark on this one - where are there any "de facto
> d > standards"
> d > in HERO System?
> d >
>
>That's what I meant by 'de facto' - there are no such limmits spelled
>out anywhere in the BBB or HSR, but a *lot* of people use them... so
>in fact, they are a standard, though there's no official support for
>it, and a fair bit of variation...
>
> d > As far as accepting the character, it really varies - 60 active, or 60
> d > real (I've seen that), or 12 DC. I built a weather controlling energy
> d > projector for a campaign with a 60 AP limit, but made the mistake of
>
>
>___
> * OFFLINE 1.58
>
There is another reason for the "standard". If you use alot of dice, you
have to count alot of dice.
Some years ago I played with someone who could count 20d6 in the tome it
took anyone
else to calculate whether or not they hit. Once we adjusted to this,
attacks started to increase.
The average attack rode to ~17d6.
The time for each attack increases only a little. The time for each combat
increases by more.
X-Sender: shelley@mail.mactyre.net
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 17:57:34 -0800
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <shelley@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: Play by Email
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 08:16 PM 12/27/97 -0500, Kevin J. McClain wrote:
>I am interested in Champs Play by EMail. Where can I get into a game or
>find guidelines for playing/running such a game?
Kevin,
Finding PBEM games to get into is notoriously hard, and as PBEM GM I'm
deluged with requests. I'd check out www.pbem.com for listings, as well as
keeping track of the usenet. As for running PBEM games, I have a small
page describing how I do things
(http://www.mactyre.net/scm/pbem/advice.html). It links to what I consider
the absolute best of the PBEM how-to pages -- Harrigan's "Running a
Successful PBEM Game" page at http://www.pbem.com/howto/harrigan.html.
Running PBEM games is a tremendous amount of fun -- lots of intense
roleplaying -- but it's also a lot of work. Make sure you're able to put
at least an hour a day into it before you get started, and my big advice
for new PBEM GMs is to start small -- three or four players to begin with.
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
www.mactyre.net
X-Sender: matthew@mail.mactyre.net (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 18:14:19 -0800
From: Matthew Mactyre <matthew@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: Armored Heroes (OIF vs. OIHID)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
At 07:52 PM 12/27/97 -0500, Eric Burns wrote:
>I have a quick question for you veterins out there: which way is
>generally more effective for simulating armored heroes (like Iron
>Man), an OIHID on all of the powers, or an OIF Focus? That is to
>say, which of these two limitations better represent the limitations
>that Iron Man, et. al., face in the comic books?
I've played a lot of armored heroes and have always played the armor
as a focus. There was some discussion about making it as a vehicle;
I'm sure there is a time and a place for it, but for play balance I'd
make it a focus, IMHO.
Matthew
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Matthew Mactyre
mcm@mactyre.net
http://www.mactyre.net
Join us on IRC Dalnet #herochat
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 22:16:52 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Play by Email
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>>I am interested in Champs Play by EMail. Where can I get into a game or
>>find guidelines for playing/running such a game?
>
>Kevin,
>
>Finding PBEM games to get into is notoriously hard, and as PBEM GM I'm
>deluged with requests.
Indeed. The best way to get into a PBEM is to start your own :-). Of course,
then you're the GM, but that just gives you more opportunity to roleplay,
right? :-) Failing that, talk somebody you know into doing it, because you
can pretty much forget ever joining an ongoing one - most have waiting lists
at least a half-dozen people long...
>Running PBEM games is a tremendous amount of fun -- lots of intense
>roleplaying -- but it's also a lot of work. Make sure you're able to put
>at least an hour a day into it before you get started,
This is very much dependant on the speed of the game. I'm running a PBEM for
the Jovian Chronicles game. It runs 2 turns a week, and each turn takes me
about 2 hours to fully 'compile and respond'. If you can find 2-3 hours
twice a week, you've got no real problems (and I think that's potentially
easier than an hour a day <shrug>).
The nice thing about PBEMs is the chance for thoughtful roleplaying. In a
room full of other, waiting people, you can often get stuck for ideas or
good lines. Given some extra time and few drumming fingers :-), you come up
with better stuff!
> and my big advice
>for new PBEM GMs is to start small -- three or four players to begin with.
Heh. Guess I took too many people, 'cause I started with twelve! It's been
going for about a month and a half now, with no real signs of slowing down
(other than the expected 'all players all over creation at Christmas'
syndrome). Mind you, six of the twelve are what I'd call 'low volume'
posters (1 response per turn), while the other six will talk your ear off if
you let them.
The thing that keeps me sane is running a highly structured (2 turns a week,
no more than 2 posts a day per person), very low-combat environment - the
players are all crew of an research ship. If I was running a faster paced
game, I'd sure the heck want fewer players (like 4-6).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Web Page created by Text2Web v1.3.6 by Dev Virdi
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Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 01:53 PM