Week Ending December 27, 1997
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:12:36 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: National Super Teams
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At 06:21 AM 12/18/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 11:22 AM 12/18/97 +1000, happyelf wrote:
>>PS: My national super team can kick your national super team any day *l*
>*j/k*
>
> Without even seeing what Phase II is like (they've never been published;
>Champions Down Under has never been more than a suggestion), there's little
>doubt that they (or any other national superteam, like the Sentinels and
>the New Knights) could beat the stuffing out of Executive Sanction. But I
>gather they concentrate less on pitched battle (leaving that to PRIMUS) and
>concentrate on investigation and such things.
>
>
WHAT?!?!?! who the heck thought of phase two??!?! and
as fer champs down under? data please *g*
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: DP9 Marketing
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:15:18 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> Almost sounds like one of the Japanese anime I saw Kishin Corps maybe.
> Except some of the mecha they had in there were huge (35m + tall) required a
> crank start and then a lot of vacuum tubes passing a lot of power before the
> main engines got really going and before the next use over half the tubes
> needed replaced. But then what would you expect from vaccuum tubes.....
Actually, Vaccuum tubes are often more reliable than transitors.
Just bigger. In today's world, a trnasitor only a few molecules across
in size would be a few inches if it where a tube.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Official Rulings (was Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:31:04 +0000 (GMT)
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> I was at Origins in 1977 and heard Tim Kask announce the "One True Way of
> D&D". I was particularly appalled at a statement to the effect that they
> intended to sue the APAs and all competing role playing games out of
> existence -- after all, all conceivable role playing games were rip-offs
> of D&D, and anyone with a halfway decent idea could come to TSR to have
> it evaluated by the real experts, anyway.
It could still happen. :)
After all:
1. WoTC bought TSR
2. WoTC patented CCG's
a. WoTC announced that ALL CCG's must pay them a licencing fee.
b. WoTC has said they will be very agressive about pursuing this
3. One could make the logic leap that they attempt to claim this right
for the RPG market due to now owning TSR.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:31:52 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Revised Hand Attack
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At 04:00 AM 12/18/97 -0500, Jeremiah Driscoll wrote:
>Opal wrote:
>>Examples:
>>
>>SuperCop wants a simple billy club. He buys:
>>
>>4d HAp, 0 END, OAF, Beam: always +1 OCV & +3d -1/4,
>>Apts 30, Rpts 13
>>
>>SuperCop has a 25 STR, but since the 0 END on the
>>billy club doesn't extend to STR, he just adds
>>the two together. He does 8d normal with a +1 OCV
>>whenever he uses his billy club.
>>
>So, you would give an *additional* point break to the OCV level? As it
>stands now, if I want a +1 OCV w/ a weapon it would cost 5 points, usually
>with a -1 OAF lim. You're giving it a -1 1/4 for no reason (IMO)...
>
I must admit I don't like the ocv bonus concept. .. . too
cheap. . .
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 19:58:13 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Changing +1/2 to +0.5
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>>> Me neither. Though I _would_ like to see an official modifier, 'Costs END to
>>> Activate, but not Maintain', though I'm not sure what it's worth. Probably a
>>> +1/4).
>This one's easy: either buy a Continuing Charge, or buy the power to 0
>End, then add in the Limitation Costs End to Cast (-1/4)
>qts
Sigh. My point was that I didn't _want_ to kludge this effect with half a
dozen other modifiers. IMHO the 'Costs END to Start, but not to Maintain'
deserves a power modifer all its own. Clean, easy to understand, and looks
short on the page.
The only problem is that it's worth more (IMHO) than +1/4 (on a END-costing
power), but 0 END is a +1/2 advantage. Unless somebody wants to introduce
1/8th advantages (yuck!), I can't decide.
Hey, what if, in HERO 5th, the system goes decimalized? For ease of use, it
should only go to the first decimal point, (make all those +1/4s into +0.2
or +0.3, or even +0.1, depending on the advantage...). A little extra
resolution wouldn't hurt, especially with advantages like Indirect and
Invisible.
For example: Invisible to one uncommon sense: +0.1
Invisible to one common sense: +0.2
Invisible to one sense group: +0.3
So, having a power that's invisible to sonar (only, not normal hearin) is
worth a +0.1, while making it invisible to normal hearing is +0.2, and
invisible to all forms of hearing +0.3.
Or, how about Indirect:
Indirect: from a single pre-defined point: +0.2
Indirect: from a movable, conditional point: +0.4
Indirect: from any point: +0.6
Indirect: points away from user (always) +0.0 (default)
Indirect: points in a single, defined direction:+0.1
Indirect: points in a conditional direction: +0.2
Indirect: points in any direction: +0.4
So, a power that originates 3 ft in front of the PC and always points away
is worth +0.2. A power that always originates from below the target
(movable, single direction) is worth +0.5. A power that always originates
from a nearby surface and points perpendicular from that surface (movable,
conditional direction) is worth +0.6. A power that originates anywhere and
fires in any direction is worth a whopping +1.0.
Back to 'Reduced END':
Reduced END: 1/2 END Cost: +0.3
Reduced END: 1 END Cost per use/phase: +0.4
Reduced END: 0 END: +0.5
Reduced END: 0 END Maintenance, not Initiation: +0.4
How 'bout it, folks? Good idea/bad idea?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 97 01:08:00
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Talent: Intuition
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On Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:17:00 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
>This seems to be the time to trot out all the house rules and ideas for new
>powers, so here's another one of mine:
>
>
>INTUITION
>
>This EGO-based talent is the ability to leap to a correct conclusion
>without all the facts necessary to make a logical conclusion. It is similar
>to the Skill Deduction, and should likewise be used sparingly. However,
>this talent differs from deduction in both applicability and results. A
>character may attempt an Intuition Roll to reach some understanding in the
>absence of complete information. The conclusion he or she reaches, though,
>may not answer the question the player had in mind. The conclusion will
>also be less definite than the product of logical reasoning - a "hunch" -
>and the Skill Roll should therefore generally be made by the GM. A failed
>Intuition Roll usually means that the character has no strong feeling about
>the situation, or it can mean an incorrect hunch.
>
>Cost: 3 points for a 9+(EGO/5) base roll, +2 points per +1 to the roll.
Why not use Luck, Only For Making Lucky Guesses (-1/2 to -1)? I really
don't see how you could justify your power as an improvable skill.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: New Limitation: Puncture
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 17:40:24 -0800
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On Saturday, December 20, 1997 8:01 AM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
>F> When an attack takes Puncture, it loses its ability to make big
holes.
>F> Examples include rapiers and most firearms. An attack using
Puncture
>F> makes small holes only.
>
>You've obviously never seen the massive tissue deformation caused by
most
>firearms, especially those with hollowpoints.
Which are small holes, compared to the description in the Breaking
Things section. The minimum sized hole described in Breaking Things is
_human sized_.
>F> Thus, a .44 Magnum cannot be used to blow a 6 ft hole in the wall
of
>F> your house,
>
>This is inherent. 6 feet ~= 2 meters = 1", or a 1 hex attack. If
you want
>to blow a 6-foot hole in a wall, you need an AoE attack. If you want
to
>*cut* a large hole, that depends on the SFX of the power in question.
BBB, first printing, pg. 178, second column, section "Wall Body".
"Of course, with walls and similar structures, a character doesn't
have to completely destroy the object-- he just wants to blow a hole
through it. In this case, use the walls thickness, according to the
following table. A character who exceeds the wall's body has created
a human-sized hole in it. The size of the hole doubles for every +1
BODY inflicted over the wall's base BODY."
So, you do _not_ need an AoE attack to make a large hole in a wall.
Technically, you can blow absolutely ridiculous-sized holes in a wimpy
enough wall.
However, a .44 Magnum cannot make such a hole. Since such a hole is
extremely useful at times, it is at least worth noting that this is a
limitation, if not a Limitation.
>F> and a rapier cannot be used to knock down an oak door,
>
>Not when the oak door's DEF is more than the damage that the rapier
can
>do.
Not when the oak door's DEF is less than the damage that the rapier
can
do, either. That is irrelevant. A rapier would be useless against a
thin plywood door, without numerous punctures in it. A broad or long
sword can do it in one.
A standard long sword can be used in this fashion, but a rapier
cannot. However, they have the same ability to do damage (at least in
some descriptions). Therefore, the rapier is limited. If you don't
want to give it a Limitation, at least note that there is, in one case
a significant difference between attacks that puncture and most
attacks in Champions.
I'm disappointed, Rat. If you want to claim this is a major flaw in
the rules, or even a minor one, go right ahead. However, I expected
you to at least know the rule.
Filksinger
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Building A Super Hero World
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 04:18:16 +0000 (GMT)
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Hello;
Now for something that has nothing to do with linked, 5th edition, or
how to use transform. :)
I'm putting together the background of my Super Hero world.
I need a world were the UN has a ban on Super Soilders. Yet Nukes still are
legal. Much like we ban chemical yet not nuclear in the real world.
I have a global organization that acts as a sort of JLA, and
brief ideas on how it came about.
I need to explain why the world would choose to ban super soilders.
Why they place trust in a private organization, how they justify super-cops.
I thought I'd go about talking about how supers came into being, what
actions led up to them being banned from military usage, why they are viewed as
they are, etc...
Some of what I'm working on is already on my website at:
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/campwrld.html
The final modern age needs to present a world which is somewhat four
color. Where Heroes are Heroes and Villians Villians. They exist on a grand
scale yet also have a deeper, personal element to them. Not a carboard cutout
world; but a heroic one.
Comic Inspirations for me are Astro City, Stormwatch (ideas wise, not
flavor wise), Impulse, and even Gen13 to a lesser degree.
Some of my ideas are below.
This is a read in of a file I've been editing, that I'm getting stuck on.
[***First Insert***]
A General Super History.
The key was the war. Before the second world war there where isolated
vigilante's here and there. But nothing in mass, nothing organized. After the
war they were just there. A new part of reality. Something the world had to
wake up and account for.
During the Second World War a number of governments were looking for that
edge that would put them ahead. As the world's need grew; the Super Humans began
to appear and step in to help the effort for their side. Some of them; such as
Korean resistance fighter 'The Chosun Dragon' (Yong Cho-Sun) had been fighting the
war of freedom for decades before the west got involved. Other's joined in as
needed. for America it started with Captain Patriot and Patriot Girl. Germany had
Blitzkrieg. Japan had Kami. There were others. The numbers grew as the war dragged
on.
When the war ended Germany and Japan were both found to have done much
'experimentation' into producing Super Soilders.
[***End first Insert***]
From there on I'm stuck, I need a reason why they were banned globally,
yet I still want a golden age feel to the era.
[***Second Insert***]
The Big Players
Who are the major government organizations? The big villain
threats? The worlds most famous Heroes?
The UN has a branch of Interpol dedicated to dealing with
international Super Crime. While they are global their
jurisdiction is limited to International incidents. The bulk of
their forces are non Super in nature.
There are also some Super's on various UN Peacekeeping assignments
throughout the world.
WatchTower is a global organization dedicating to combating Super
Human and related threats. The group is semi private. It traces
it's origins to a private group formed after the second world war.
A group of heroes from diferent nations who agreed to come
together in times of need. As time has gone on, the organization has grown to be near
global and often sponsored by a whole host of governement and private interests. I
have more details on Watch Tower elsewhere. (link not yet active)
Government Super Soilders:(How do I go here, yes or no, and in what way, need to work
this out.)
Part of the UN's founding charter, in an effort to prevent the mistakes of the Second
World War; outlined very restrictive rules on the use of Super Humans by national
governements. The trick was in writing a document which prevented Super Armies,
without also preventing the Atomic Powers (the US in those days) from maintaining
their edge. As the US was on the winning side of the war; this issue was of vital
importance to it. After all, many nations had Supers, but only one had the A-Bomb.
* In the US the first response to a Super threats was the National Guard. As time
went on various legal issues led away from this. As WatchTower became stronger,
the US began to rely on it for direct intervention, but formed a division under
the FBI for investigative work. So the US uses WatchTower as a sort of SWAT Team,
and has FBI agents work with them for investigation and arrests.
Militarily, the US officially maintains no Super Human special forces, as per UN
conventions. However, rumors abound to the contrary.
* China has a very well known division of the People's Liberation Army composed
mostly of Mutants. (This one will most likely have to be made into a National
Police group, or justified in light of the ban.)
[***End Second Insert***]
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 21:04:42 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Official Rulings (was Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...)
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Brian Wong wrote:
>
> Because when I ask someone's opinions on something, I already know
> that I can "do what I want". What I want to know is what they had intended
> to mean when they wrote down what they did. Under such a circumstance,
> telling me "do what you want" is insulting. It's telling me "I don't care
> to answer peasants." Maybe it's part of my background in asia, when I'm
> told something I always look past the words to see the true meaning held
> in the message. But I doubt it. Cause I'm not alone in finding such an
> answer to be unfufilling to my needs.
While each of our backgrounds certainly colors our reactions, I assure
you that I come to the same conclusion from a thoroughly Occidental
background. I tend to regard the rules as a contract between the players
and the GM. If I announce that I am using a published system X, then it
is incumbent upon me to publish any variant rules that I am using,
including such things as campaign limits on power. Where my own rules are
silent, the players can and should assume that I am doing things per the
book.
Every time that the book is ambiguous, I am compelled to publish a
clarification so that my players understand what I am doing. If I don't
do this, then one player is apt to feel that he or she is being treated
unfairly compared to another player, or they will not have confidence
that I am constructing villains according to the rules -- and the
principle of reciprocity is very strong in both my regular gaming groups.
Accordingly, I appreciate clarifications of the form, "This is what we
meant when we wrote the rule. There are other reasonable ways to run
this, but this is what we intended, and what we think works best." I am
then perfectly capable of announcing a house rule that conflicts with the
official ruling, but I tend to prefer the book method unless I have
strong reasons to do something otherwise.
>
> On the contrary. I DO NOT WANT a Gygax routine of you and Steve
> going on the net, cons, and some version of Adventurers Club telling
> us that "the rules are X, and only X, and failure to play by method X is
> a failure to play the game and should result in confiscation of your
> copy of the game."
Aaaauugh!
I was at Origins in 1977 and heard Tim Kask announce the "One True Way of
D&D". I was particularly appalled at a statement to the effect that they
intended to sue the APAs and all competing role playing games out of
existence -- after all, all conceivable role playing games were rip-offs
of D&D, and anyone with a halfway decent idea could come to TSR to have
it evaluated by the real experts, anyway.
No, please don't let Hero and GRG go down that road!
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 22:10:06 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
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GoldRushG wrote:
>
> << How does Linked work? >>
>
> Can you be a little more specific? Two powers are linked to "go off"
> together, and the smaller of the two (in APs) gets the Limitation. What else
> do you want to know?
Oh, gee, just a hundred things or so...
While I realize that you cannot peruse the entirety of huge threads,
there are a few clues that Linked is underspecified:
1) The vast number of posts that occur every time Linked is mentioned.
2) The constant references to the Great Linked Debate.
3) The FAQ, which you *should* have time to peruse.
4) The fact that Steve Peterson has, himself, stated that Linked is not
as well thought out as it should be and has contradicted himself publicly
on such basic questions as whether the larger (base) power can be used
without the smaller (linked) power. This is also noted in the FAQ.
IIRC, this is an area where published characters tend to be inconsistent
with a straightforward reading of the rules as published, but I have no
examples to hand.
>
> << How many powers can be used with a single attack roll in a phase? >>
>
> One, unless they are linked.
Are you absolutely sure? Steve has apparently contradicted himself on
this point as well. For example, if this is true, how does one describe
two powers that can be used together *or* separately? One seems to
require an unlisted Advantage for this.
>
> << What can Transformation do (and not do). >>
>
> It can simulate any effect not already covered by an existing Power, as I
> understand it. It's usually used for cosmetic changes, and is *always*
> reversible.
This is a simplistic answer. Can a Major Transformation create a
character with more points than the character transformed? If so, how
does one limit this? If not, how does one explain the published
characters (Purge Armor) and origins (Leech) that seem to require Major
Transform to do this?
Better guidelines on the dividing line between Minor and Major Transform
would be helpful. Moreover, Major Transform seems to cover anything from
"permanently" blinding a person (reversable by extended medical
treatment) to turning someone into a styrofoam duodecahedron (reversable
by pressing the correct button on a control belt), even though most
people would agree that the second is vastly more powerful than the
first in most situations.
These problems are not so important with NPCs: they rarely complain
that the other NPCs are getting more power for a given expenditure of
points. This *is* a problem when two players want powers that seem best
described by a Transform, and one wants to preserve equity and amity.
>
> Rather than wading through countless posts of "debate" on these issues
> (which I admit I don't have the time to do due to other commitments)
One *could* look at initial posts with a prefix such as "Rules Question".
> is anyone
> here willing to help me compile a concise list of rules questions? That would
> be most appreciated.
Again, you might start with the FAQ. Unfortunately, "concise" is likely
to be in the eye of the beholder, since many problems, such as those with
Linked, are best expressed with examples to show the different problems
that may arise. In any event, I am willing to help, and I am sure that
others are as well.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:36:41 EST
Subject: Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< It can simulate any effect not already covered by an existing Power, as I
> understand it. It's usually used for cosmetic changes, and is *always*
> reversible.
<< Can a Major Transformation create a character with more points than the
character transformed? >>
Good question! :D I would say yes, but only if it furthers the plot, etc. I
wouldn't allow abusive uses of it. But I know that's not the answer you were
looking for.
Mark @ GRG
From: "Jeff O'Connor" <jtoc@msn.com>
Subject: Looking for Phoenix Players
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:38:16 -0700
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Is there anyone on this list from Phoenix or its surrounding cities? I
would love to get involved with a group this upcoming year, but haven't seen
much that I like around here lately. There is a large gaming group that
meets very near my apartment in Mesa, but they all play Fuzion, which I
neither like nor own.
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:49:20 EST
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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In a message dated 97-12-20 11:31:19 EST, you write:
<< F> The fallacy in this argument is that 99% of the time, *whatever* a
F> character creates using Transform is going to be USEFUL to someone,
F> otherwise he/she wouldn't be creating it.
Yeah, because turning a dragon into a frog is going to be really useful to
the now ex-dragon.
But tons more useful to the person about to be eaten/breathed upon by the
dragon. Seriously, if it's not useful, you wouldn't do it. Think about it.
Why perform an action if it doesn't benifit you or someone else? (Our
friendly S&M bretheren aside)
F> If you turn your enemy to stone, that has just become useful to you,
F> since the enemy can't attack you anymore.
You could have killed him instead. You are not creating something useful,
you are crippling your opponent. You have not created something, you have
turned your enemy into something else.
That is useful to you, which was the whole point. Using a Transform to
incapacitate an enemy, changing a dagger to a sword, giving a friend wings...
are all things that are *useful* in some way. (And don't tell me that if I
use Transform to give a friend wings, that I'm going to have to reach across
the table and scratch an equal number of points off his sheet to keep the same
number of points) And if you abide by the sentence you're trying to say
outlaws point increases, all these are now invalid uses of Transforms.
F> If you create food out of thin air, that is useful to you.
Food has no active point cost, thus is not "useful" as far as game
mechanics are concerned.
I did say 99%. Never say never... unless you're Sean Connery.
F> If you change a normal human (25-50 points) into a vampire (let's see
F> anyone make an effective vampire for 25 points), the vampire is now a
F> stronger character (useful to himself or the vampire sire).
If the point total is the same as the original character, then the vampire
is not more "useful" than the original character as far as game mechanics
are concerned. 25 points of X is just as "useful" as 25 points of Y.
>>
You're missing the point here... it's *impossible* to make an effective
vampire on 25 points! Therefore, in order to change a normal to a vampire,
using Transform, you're going to *have* to increase his/her points... probably
along the lines of 200+ points. (If you're going to do a vampire justice) And
besides, since most of the points spent on normals are on skills, does that
mean that all of a sudden they forget all their skills? While that may fit a
few conceptions of vampires, it certainly doesn't fit them all. And again,
please don't say that the Transform is Linked with an Aid or something, since
Champions' own example of a Vampire uses only Transform.
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:49:47 EST
Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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<< However, Gold Rush Games has even more diversions. It has a complete Fuzion
line with Usagi Yojimbo and Sengoku. It has Crunchy Frog Games products, and
it has a line of import videos. >>
We distribute the Crunchy Frog stuff. We don't do any development on it. So
I would not count it as a "diversion." Same with teh videos. We don't produce
them. We just sell them.
<< Exactly. Perception is reality. Common perception is that Hero no longer
exists. Perception being reality, then it can be said that Hero no longer
exists. >>
Perception is not reality. Truth is truth, a lie is a lie and ignorance is
ignorance. Life is but an allusion and karma is karma.
Now, back to Hero stuff... The fact that the "perception" was allowed to
become false rumors is the responsibility of the people who jumped to a false
conclusion and spread "assumptions" as "facts." That's irresponsible. But I
agree we need to do more, also, to get the word out. Part of the problem is,
some folks don't even believe *us*! :D
<< You can scream all you want that copies are sitting in a warehouse, but
unless you can convince the public at large thet they are there and available;
they effectivly don't exist. >>
I don't appreciate your tone. I was not "screaming." And further I think
that that is horse-hockey. Those copies of Champions and other Hero books are
there whether folks believe in them or not. *That's* reality! <LOL>
<< Need to do something Hero has never done much of at all. Need to blitzcreig
the gaming world with advertizement. >>
You people need to realize that advertising is very expensive, and that
blitz you mention is not practical, nor plausible for us right now. :/
<< When we disagree with Hero we often get dismissed out of hand as being no
more than a small oddball fringe of Hero's Market. A fatal mistake. Not only
are there many people on this list... >>
Yes, yes, I know about how that word-of-mouth and "networking" stuff works.
;)
<< Hero makes a move in here and word spreads fast. >>
So all those stores and gaming groups now KNOW that Hero products are, in
fact, coming and that Champions 4th is NOT dead? They know all about San
Angelo and the follow-up books in the SA line, right? I mean, you told them
that stuff, didn't you? ;)
Mark @ GRG
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 22:53:30 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Link degression
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Mark Lemming wrote:
>
> On the phrase "CON Stunned"
>
> How many people just want to reach across the table and slap the
> person with a wet sea bass when they say that?
Never heard it before. Better choices would have been "unstunning" or
"catch up with yourself." Neither phrase appears in the rulebook, but
both convey concepts that are not compactly expressed otherwise.
Similarly, although the book does not define "attack powers", most people
know the difference between an offensive and a defensive power.
Although, if Rat is correct, and a "somatic soliloquy" can be performed
by firing an Energy Blast at nothing in particular, it would make more
sense out of the example Presence Attack, where Arkelos the Mage appears
to waste an action by blasting an innocent tree. Of course, hitting the
tree should have required an attack roll anyway...
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 16:57:50 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Looking for Phoenix Players
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:38 PM 12/20/97 -0700, Jeff O'Connor wrote:
>Is there anyone on this list from Phoenix or its surrounding cities? I
>would love to get involved with a group this upcoming year, but haven't seen
>much that I like around here lately. There is a large gaming group that
>meets very near my apartment in Mesa, but they all play Fuzion, which I
>neither like nor own.
Well, i live on the other side of the world, but
I advise you convert them back to hero. . *eg*
>
>
>
>
>
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:01:03 -0800
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Friday, December 19, 1997 9:01 PM, Firelynx16 wrote:
>In a message dated 97-12-19 17:09:35 EST, you write:
<snip>
>If you change a normal human
>(25-50 points) into a vampire (let's see anyone make an effective
vampire for
>25 points)
<snip>
As you wish.:)
Actually, my method gives you a workable vampire for ZERO points.
That's right, zero.
Step one: You use Transformation to make the human into a vampire. The
vampire has certain basic traits. The vampire is a character of a
greater power level than the original, _but with no additional
points_. That's right, no extra points. Thus, anyone who becomes a
vampire is at least a Super Hero Character, with stronger characters
going up two levels, to a maximum of high-powered Superhero.
Superheroes will find that being vampires may interfere with their
abilities in some way, at least in the short run. Thus, high powered
superheroes being incapable of taking more Disadvantages, lose other
super powers until they can pay to get them back.
Step two: The vampire has vampiric powers, for no points. Buy whatever
vampiric powers you like, and give the vampire zero points for them.
This gives the vampire powers to put points into, when he gets the
points, but gives him nothing that costs points.
Step three: The vampire is given standard vampiric Disadvantages.
Depending upon your campaign, these may include Fear of Holy Items,
Susceptibility to Sunlight, Susceptibility to silver, etc. Pick
whatever is appropriate to your campaign. You should easily get 75 pts
in Disadvantages out of this.
Step four: Give the vampire these actual powers:
15 EC: Vampire
15 Total Life Support
15 3 BODY/Turn Regeneration
19 1d6 Transfer BODY increased maximum Transfer on both Transfer
powers, points return at 5/ day.
19 1d6 Transfer EGO to previously mentioned Vampiric Powers, points
return at 5/ day.
14 N-ray Vision, only to see in the dark (-1/2)
3 +3 STR, or whatever you want
100 Total Cost
Now you have a vampire. To begin with, the vampire is weak- only as
strong as a normal man. This is a very dangerous stage for a vampire,
as it is not an effective hunter.The vampire's strength is in its
resistance to death and its ability to take strength from others. As
it attacks its victims, it becomes stronger and stronger, until it is
very powerful indeed. However, it must continue to feed, or before
long it will be almost normal again; weak once again.
Filksinger
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: New Limitation: Puncture
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:16:54 -0800
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On Saturday, December 20, 1997 6:15 AM, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
>
>On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, Filksinger wrote:
>>
>> Puncture (-1/4)
<snip>
>
>This is very interesting. I can certainly see the applicability of
it, but
>I wonder about the precedent it sets. Normally I handle this sort of
thing
>as a special effects issue. Making rules for it makes sense on one
level,
>but it seems to me it could get overly complex very quickly. What
about a
>broadsword, which could certainly make a large hole in a wooden door
in a
>few phases, but is a lousy implement for digging through dirt or
stone?
>What about an attack that can slice a circle in a wall, but doesn't
>actually destroy much material so that it can't make much of a hole
in
>anything beyond a certain thickness?
>
>It also seems that by using this disadvantage, you open the door to
>countless other comparable minor disadvantages. KA's that effect the
>entire body at once are incapable of impairing a limb - that might be
>worth a disadvantage. Blunt weapons are unlikely to sever a limb.
Blade
>weapons might do less damage on rigid-structured opponents like
animated
>skeletons.
>
>I could see working up a whole set of disads to simulate a wide
variety of
>attacks, and this might be appropriate in a very few campaigns. But I
>suspect it would be opening a can of worms to start using this sort
of
>things in most games.
>
>What have your experiences with it been?
Frankly, fairly limited. Firearms have had a few additional
limitations in my campaigns for some time, such as Puncture and Cannot
be used underwater or when clogged with mud or sand. However, as my
superheroes have almost never wanted firearms, and my heroic
characters never pay points for them, this has not been an issue.
A broadsword is somewhat limited, it is true, but it is small enough
to be special effects. The limitation on the rapier is clearly larger,
and I generally consider it enough to be significant. I don't usually
go in for very detailed, minor limitations. It has been my experience
that firearms have a limited utility compared to most superhero world
weapons.
Besides which, I could never figure out why Viper agents would run
around with high-tech weapons whose only notable characteristic was
being less effective than the equivalent size (and presumably much
cheaper, monetarily) firearms.
Filksinger
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:37:43 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Official Rulings (was Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 09:04 PM 12/20/97 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:
>While each of our backgrounds certainly colors our reactions, I assure
>you that I come to the same conclusion from a thoroughly Occidental
>background. I tend to regard the rules as a contract between the players
>and the GM. If I announce that I am using a published system X, then it
>is incumbent upon me to publish any variant rules that I am using,
>including such things as campaign limits on power. Where my own rules are
>silent, the players can and should assume that I am doing things per the
>book.
This pretty much fits my own view of gaming. IMO, there are two reasons to
know the "official" rule on a given sitution:
1) Because you're going to use it.
2) Because you're NOT going to use it.
There's nothing wrong with changing a rule to fit your game, but it's a good
idea to know what you're doing first, to understand the "canon/tournament"
view before you make any divergences from it. I can modify my car, too, but
I really ought to know how it's SUPPOSED to fit together before I start
messing with it.
>I was at Origins in 1977 and heard Tim Kask announce the "One True Way of
>D&D". I was particularly appalled at a statement to the effect that they
>intended to sue the APAs and all competing role playing games out of
>existence -- after all, all conceivable role playing games were rip-offs
>of D&D, and anyone with a halfway decent idea could come to TSR to have
>it evaluated by the real experts, anyway.
An attitude now being echoed by WotC -in re- the Garfield Patent & CCGs
(*sigh*). I wonder if any of these people realize that the purpose of
"intellectual property" laws from the beginning in the U.S. was to *promote*
the exchange of ideas, not choke it to a standstill. :/
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:37:45 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Official Rulings (was Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:45 AM 12/21/97 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Sat, 20 Dec 1997, Brian Wong wrote:
>
>>
>> 1. WoTC bought TSR
>> 2. WoTC patented CCG's
>> a. WoTC announced that ALL CCG's must pay them a licencing fee.
>> b. WoTC has said they will be very agressive about pursuing this
>
>You have got to be kidding. How could WoTC patent the idea of the CCG? I
>could see patenting and Trademarking Magic... but every form of CCG?
If you've read the Garfield Patent, it's a real work -- the thing is written
so vaguely, one gets the feeling he eventually intends to sue the makers of
Pogs.
Frankly, it'll probably fall through if it ever gets to court, on the
grounds that:
1) Patent applications MUST be submitted (not approved, just
turned into the Patent Office) within a year of the creation
or publicization of the product. Magic was on the shelves for
at least 2 years before Richard Garfield submitted his patent.
Barring a loophole I haven't located yet, this renders the
ISSUING of the patent null & void; given, that's a technicality.
2) There's enough "prior art" on this thing to restock the Louvre,
primarily on account of the overbroad nature of the patent -- i.e.
I could have seen it defensible had he actually limited it to
M:tG, but by making everything vague, far-reaching terminology,
he steps on the toes of games that have existed for years. As
an example: let's find a game where everyone puts together a deck
of "game components" (the patent never refers to actual cards)
from a common pool, then brings them into play turn by turn using
certain restrictions, all to represent a conflict.
Sounds like "Pursue the Pennant" to me: there's the common pool
(the set of major league baseball players on cards), the orderly
play procedure (batting order?), etc.
>And they plan to sue everyone else who puts out a CCG? That's insane? It
>also sounds like a fast way for WoTC to burn off all their profits in
>court battles (or more likely, drive everyone else out of business).
I'd like for Garfield and Adkisson (sp?) to take a look at the Rollins White
patent, a classic example of the problems with screwy litigation.
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:37:49 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Official Rulings (was Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 12:15 PM 12/21/97 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:
>One may feel that the PTO should not have patented the CCG, but that is a
>different story. Remember that this is the same PTO that briefly allowed
>a patent on Hypertext. Frankly, I cannot think of a valid objection to
>the patent -- it was a novel idea that was not obvious that met a market
>need. The only question now is whether the claim is overly broad, but I
>doubt that a court would agree that it is.
Well, I prefer to let people decide for themselves. Here's the document in
question. As I've pointed out, the exemplary claims seem to basically all
conform to the "Pursue the Pennant" fantasy baseball game, thanks to the
vague language; I'm not a patent lawyer, but I've always been under the
impression that a 10-year old product which "infringes" on a new "invention"
sorta invalidates any patentability, and the copyright on the older product
creates a "54th Street" proof ("the Copyright Office, a branch of the
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, says that ...") of its prior existence
=================================================================
5662332 : Trading card game method of play
INVENTORS: Garfield; Richard Channing, Portland, OR
ASSIGNEES: Wizards of the Coast, Inc., Renton, WA
ISSUED: Sep. 2 , 1997
FILED: Oct. 17, 1995
SERIAL NUMBER: 544306
MAINT. STATUS:
INTL. CLASS (Ed. 6): A63F 1/00;
U.S. CLASS: 273-308
FIELD OF SEARCH: 273-244,245,246,247,259,277,298,292,308 ;
AGENTS: Graham & James LLP/Riddell Williams P.S.;
=================================================================
ABSTRACT: Provided herein is a novel method of game play and
game components that in one embodiment are in the form of trading
cards (10, 12, 40, 42, 44, 48, 54, 60, 64). However, the game
components may take other forms, such as a board game, or the
game may be played in different media, such as electronic games,
video games, computer games, and interactive network. In one
version, the game components comprise energy or mana cards 40
and command or spell cards (10, 12, 42, 44, 48, 54, 60, 64)
having commands or spells associated therewith that utilize the
energy to enable a player to attack, defend and modify the effect
of other mana cards, spell cards, and the fundamental rules of
play. The goal of the game is to reduce the life points of other
players to a level below one. In this game of strategy and
chance, players construct their own library of cards, preferably
from trading cards, and play their library or deck of cards
against the deck of cards of an opposing player. Cards may be
obtained from retail outlets, trading with other players or
collectors, and winning cards at games and tournaments.
U.S. REFERENCES: (No patents reference this one)
Patent No. Inventor Issued Title
4486022 Dixon 12 /1984 Sports board games
5071136 Lott 12 /1991 Collectable sports card board game
5145173 Crowder 9 /1992 Baseball game
5201525 Castro 4 /1993 Card game utilizing baseball trading cards
EXEMPLARY CLAIM(s): Show all 6 claims
=================================================================
The embodiments of the invention in which an exclusive property
or privilege is claimed are defined as follows:
1. A method of playing games involving two or more players, the
method being suitable for games having rules for game play that
include instructions on drawing, playing, and discarding game
components, and a reservoir of multiple copies of a plurality of
game components, the method comprising the steps of:
each player constructing their own library of a
predetermined number of game components by examining and
selecting game components from the reservoir of game
components;
each player obtaining an initial hand of a predetermined
number of game components by shuffling the library of
game components and drawing at random game components
from the player's library of game components;
and each player executing turns in sequence with other
players by drawing, playing, and discarding game
components in accordance with the rules until the game
ends, said step of executing a turn comprises:
(a) making one or more game components from the
player's hand of game components available for
play by taking the one or more game components
from the player's hand and placing the one or
more game components on a playing surface; and
(b) bringing into play one or more of the
available game components by:
(i) selecting one or more game components; and
(ii) designating the one or more game
components being brought into play by
rotating the one or more game components
from an original orientation to a second
orientation.
RELATED U.S. APPLICATIONS:
Patent No. Appl No. Issue Date
263447
FOREIGN APPLICATION PRIORITY DATA: none
FOREIGN REFERENCES:
Document No. Country Date Intl. Class
497223 EPO 8 /1992
OTHER REFERENCES: none
PRIMARY/ASSISTANT EXAMINERS: Stoll; William E.;
ADDED TO DATABASE: Sep. 3 , 1997
--
Vox 25:17, Patron Saint of Gadflies
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good |
| men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 02:44:26 EST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
In a message dated 97-12-21 02:24:07 EST, you write:
<<
>In a message dated 97-12-19 17:09:35 EST, you write:
<snip>
>If you change a normal human
>(25-50 points) into a vampire (let's see anyone make an effective
vampire for
>25 points)
<snip>
As you wish.:)
Actually, my method gives you a workable vampire for ZERO points.
That's right, zero.
Step one: You use Transformation to make the human into a vampire. The
vampire has certain basic traits. The vampire is a character of a
greater power level than the original, _but with no additional
points_. That's right, no extra points. Thus, anyone who becomes a
vampire is at least a Super Hero Character, with stronger characters
going up two levels, to a maximum of high-powered Superhero.
Superheroes will find that being vampires may interfere with their
abilities in some way, at least in the short run. Thus, high powered
superheroes being incapable of taking more Disadvantages, lose other
super powers until they can pay to get them back.
Step two: The vampire has vampiric powers, for no points. Buy whatever
vampiric powers you like, and give the vampire zero points for them.
This gives the vampire powers to put points into, when he gets the
points, but gives him nothing that costs points.
Step three: The vampire is given standard vampiric Disadvantages.
Depending upon your campaign, these may include Fear of Holy Items,
Susceptibility to Sunlight, Susceptibility to silver, etc. Pick
whatever is appropriate to your campaign. You should easily get 75 pts
in Disadvantages out of this.
Step four: Give the vampire these actual powers:
15 EC: Vampire
15 Total Life Support
15 3 BODY/Turn Regeneration
19 1d6 Transfer BODY increased maximum Transfer on both Transfer
powers, points return at 5/ day.
19 1d6 Transfer EGO to previously mentioned Vampiric Powers, points
return at 5/ day.
14 N-ray Vision, only to see in the dark (-1/2)
3 +3 STR, or whatever you want
100 Total Cost
>>
So you're using Transform to change a 25 point character into a 100 point
character and you're *not* increasing the point total????? Remember, we're
talking about changing a normal into an effective vampire with Transform.
Also, you can't give someone a power on their character sheet without paying
points for it... there's mininum costs to deal with. If you don't have the
minimum costs, you don't have the power, and no amount of Transfer will
increase it to usable levels, since it doesn't exist.
I do like your idea though, about the powers being baseline weak and dependent
on blood intake, but IMHO, there are many more powers a vampire should have
that need to be included in your base set list... like a HKA for the fangs,
for instance... fangs aren't just used for the 'transfer' of the power, they
also make handy weapons, and shouldn't be dependent upon how much blood the
vampire has drunk.
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 02:56:05 EST
Subject: Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< This is a simplistic answer.>>
It was a vague question.
Mark @ GRG
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 00:50:16 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Mage-style magic in Hero...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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How would you do Mage-style (from White Wolf's Mage:The Ascension,
one of the Noun:The Noun series of games) magic in Hero? I ask
because I've always been of the opinion ANYTHING can be done in Hero,
but this one is stumping me.
In short, there are nine 'spheres' of power, such as Life, Matter,
Forces, Entropy, etc. Spells are created 'on the fly' and the GM
decides which spheres are involved and how much skill is needed in
each sphere. There is also a lot of overlap...something which might
require Forces I could be simulated by Entropy III, for example. I
could kill you with a lightning bolt (Forces) or by stopping your
heart (Life) or by aging you in seconds (Entropy), but even if all of
these did the same damage, they'd require different skill levels in
the spheres.
Further, there's the issue of Paradox. Basically, people don't
believe in magic. So, if you do 'obvious' magic (such as shooting a
lightning bolt), you risk a serious backlash. This is easy enough in
Hero -- Side Effects. But the same spell, in game terms, can also be
done 'coincidentally' -- so instead of shooting lightning bolts from
your fingers, someone 'accidently' steps on the third rail and is
fried. The difference is in what people see, not what actually
happens. So sometimes there are side effects, sometimes, there are
not.
Could anyone familiar with Mage give me some ideas on how to model
this in Hero? Since spells are created dynamically, a VPP is
obviously the basis, but the limitations/advantages on it are giving
me a headache. Possibly a VPP where the powers you create require
multiple skill rolls, said skill rolls based on what Spheres are
involved and how complex the task is for each sphere. Oy.
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Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:42:36 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Regeneration of Limbs, and Body Parts
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Vance Scott wrote:
>
>
> Thus human's are unable to regenerate organs, or limbs. This is why
> you buy the power Regeneration to provide full, and complete
> Regeneration not speed our limited natural regenerative abilities..
Just to restate where we came from, there is no argument that, if you
want the ability to regrow limbs, some variation on Regeneration is
appropriate. The question is entirely whether for a mere 10 points one
should have, in addition to the ability to be healed from death's door to
full health in only six minutes, the ability to regrow a lost limb
completely in the same time, or whether one needs an advantage.
>> In fact, this usage is not limited to dry academics: note that
>> "Regenerators" in Star Trek are used
> ...
> Aside from that, Star Trek isn't the most reliable source of
> scientific, or even symantic information. ^
Oh, be reasonable! I did not cite Star Trek for real-world science, nor
for real-world semantics. SF literature and RPGs often have usages that
differ from real-world usages. Star Trek is a not-insignificant part of
the genre, and I clearly stated for what purpose I was considering it.
>
> > > The Regenerate power is over priced in comparison to Aid.
> > Surely, you mean, "underpriced?"
>
> Nope over priced.
>
> > 25 1D6 Aid + 30 max, with a fixed roll of 2 (+0 SFX).
>
> A fixed roll of 2 is artifically damaging to an Aid Regeneration
> comparison since an average roll on a d6 is 3.5 not 2.
Yes, but insurance always costs something. I generally allow a fixed
roll of 3 per die, where warranted by special effect. I would not be
averse to a -1/4 limitation in this case, but I think that -1/2 would be
too much.
>
> > 0 END/Persistent(+1) Uncontrolled(+1/2) [50 active]
>
> It isn't necessary to buy both Uncontrolled, and Persistant as they
> both provide a similiar effect.
Checking the rules more carefully, I note that Aid is not a continuous
power, and so the advantage Continuous(+1) is required. Once that is
purchased, then the power should be bought Uncontrolled (since the power
normally requires an attack action, even if used on oneself).
I also forgot to add Triggered/damage(+1/4), which is required because
Regeneration does not take an action to use. We can assume that there is
a phase to reset the power between battles.
>
> > Extra Time/turn(-1)
>
> This limitation robs aid of it greatest advantage over regeneration
> acting per phase instead of per turn. The addition of this limitation
> is unneccessary, and arbitarily handicaps Aid.
Excuse me? I am trying to create virtually the same effect using two
powers: Aid and Regeneration. This is the only valid way to compare two
powers. Since I cannot speed up Regeneration, I must slow down Aid.
>
> > and that doesn't even quite do it, since the Regeneration has *no* upper
> > limit, but I concede that few characters take more than 36 BODY per
> > month.
>
> True, but regeneration's lack of an upper limit becomes moot if
> you're dead. Most champions characters have a body of 10-13.
If your adventures are all one-battle adventures, with plenty of time in
between, then a smaller limit will do; however, if your PCs are often
following up leads and fighting several smaller battles within a month,
then those extra points are the *primary* advantage of Regeneration over
Aid.
>
>
> A proper Aid simulating Regeneration.
With my corrections added.
>
> 24 Aid vs. Body 1d6 cp (5cp), + 38 cp to maximum restoration (19cp)
> +1 Invisible Power Effects
> +1/2 0 EnduranceCost
I hadn't thought of IPE. Good point. Even though one can see the
effects of the Regeneration, there should be no obvious use of power, and
nothing to interfere with using Stealth while the power is going.
> +1/2 Persistant
+1 Continuous for reasons above stated.
+1/2 Uncontrolled (requires some way to stop it)
+1/4 Triggered by Damage
> 72 cp
102 active points.
> -1 Only usable vs. Self (As Aid is usable vs. Other a +1 advantage
> it seemed fair to reverse this value.)
-1/4 Usable on Others is only +1/4, after all.
> -1/2 Only restore to Starting Value
> -1/2 Always On - Can't Push, and may cause difficulties with
> Disguises, and Secret Identities. Wounds healing if front of
> others is a give-away.
I would not allow a limitation for Always On for this power, especially
if bought IPE.
> 24 cp Grand Total
57 Real Points
> Assuming an average speed of 4 and an average roll 3.5 this would
> regenerate a total of 14 cp a turn, or 7 body.
The choice of average SPD depends heavily on campaign and character
concept, which is why I elected to use the Extra Time limitation
to bring the two into sync. Suppose that a character has a SPD of 3,
then we get 5.25 BODY/turn, for a total of 50 points of Regeneration,
which just a smidgen cheaper than the Aid, which is measurably less
powerful.
Regeneration is the only way under the Hero System to purchase
accelerated healing. To get limb regrowth too, for no points, strikes me
as unbalancing.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
X-Sender: ghost@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 03:49:26 -0600
From: Bryce Berggren <ghost@softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:49 AM 12/21/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
> Now, back to Hero stuff... The fact that the "perception" was allowed to
>become false rumors is the responsibility of the people who jumped to a false
>conclusion and spread "assumptions" as "facts." That's irresponsible. But I
>agree we need to do more, also, to get the word out. Part of the problem is,
>some folks don't even believe *us*! :D
(sigh) Perceptions and rumors and lions and tigers and bears out the window.
Here's some hard facts:
a) There are 6 hobby/gaming stores within a reasonable drive of myself, and
two more I drive to anyway (one out by my sister's college, the other in
Waukegan where I used to game), plus numerous Waldenbooks, Kroch's, etc. that
I've purchased RPG materials at in the past few months. /One/ of them had HERO
materials of any kind in the store, and it was buried in the back in an old
box.
b) Hero Games repeatedly stated during the marshmallow roast following the
Fuzion announcement that Fuzion/C:TNM was necessary because Champions just
wasn't selling.
c) C:TNM has already gotten more distributor and advertising support than
I ever saw for HERO. To put it another way, Hero Games has tried to sell
Fuzion to me, whereas I had to go out and buy HERO.
I don't mind your frustration over trying to sell to a market that doesn't
understand you're still there, but please don't blame it on the market. The
blame rests squarely on the shoulders of the original source.
H. G.
He beats his fists against the posts
and still insists he sees the ghosts
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:56:06 -0800 (PST)
Cc: goldrushg@aol.com, champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Hey kids,
It's been quite a while since I've been active on this list. Life's
been busy. But I thought I'd comment since the folks from GoldRush Games
seem quite honestly interested in hearing from us. Intelligence like that
deserves to be rewarded :-).
> GoldRushG wrote:
> > So what can we (GRG) do about this negative perception of Hero
> > products and the surivability of 4th Edition? I'm open to
> > suggestions (but please re-title any posts that drift from the
> > topic <G>).
Okay, you have to address some basic problems.
Marketing is critical. I hate it, you're probably not fond of
it, most of the people on this list are probably on the other side of
the table from Marketing, but the simple fact of the matter is that
good marketing can make a mediocre product, mediocre marketing can
break a good product (look at Microsoft :-).
What can you do? First is upgrading your image; make it slick,
make it sexy. Get some top-flight graphic designers laying out the
books (they're better now than in the past, but you have only to pick
up some of the top work to see how far there is to go). Get some of
the top independent comic artists to do covers, interior art (*lots*
of interior art), posters, supplemental material. Sure, that'll cost.
It'll cost even more to not have it.
Think about crafting your entire image. Sure, this is about
comic books, but that doesn't mean it has to be "cartoony". Contrast
The Dark Knight Returns with the (relatively recent) Batman afternoon
cartoon series. You want *your* product to drip with the coolth that
TDKR had, or at least a reasonable facimile (I don't expect DC to be
too helpful to you :-). Check out other material, like the Marshall
Law series, some of the top sellers today, and look at some of the
top selling RPG products as well.
Take a leaf from White Wolf. Their audience tends to be far too
melodramatic for my tastes, and their systems are rather fractured,
but damn, they have that marketing angle down pat. The image they
project wins half - maybe more - their battles. Sure, they produce
imaginative supplements and expand their line, but I'm sure all of the
supplements they produce are carefully chosen to augment their overall
image, and the content - the ideas, details and information in each
supplement, and the way it's written and presented - is a powerful
piece of marketing in itself.
You want your stuff to look so cool that retailers will *want* to
give it star billing and premium shelf space, because it makes *their*
shop look cool. This will dramatically increase your visibility in
the stores. Add some cool promotional material and you'll have even
better visibility. I know saying "cool" over and over again sounds
immature, but guess what, so is your audience.
Advertise. Develop a market presence, and enhance it. Yes,
advertising in top-selling comics would be nice, if you had the money,
but far more important is all the little efforts, the constant pushing
and skull-sweat. Posters and fliers and promotional material sent to
distributors and retailers and cons and gaming clubs. Try to have a
constant flow of products coming out, and promote each one, before it
comes out, as it comes out, and after it comes out. Demonstrate
continuing signs of life. Develop and enhance your distribution
channels; these can be *everything* for a company.
And yes, you will have to advertise via traditional channels,
some. Start small, work your way up. Try advertising in fairly small
comics that have solidly loyal readerships that fit in with your
demographic - what *is* your demographic, by the way? Do you know?
If not, better figure it out. If you don't know who you're selling
to, how do you know how, where, and what to sell? Try including
survey cards in your products, and running web-based surveys. Ask
players how much gaming stuff they buy, what other things they buy
(comics, fiction, anime, videogames, etc). Figure out what your best
bet is.
The best way to get people to fill out surveys is simply to offer
them something. Make it big, make it small. Raffle off a dozen
pieces of original art (i.e. each survey respondent gets entered into
the drawing) or give out a thousand posters to the first thousand
respondents. I know this from some personal experience trying to get
readers - even highly motivated readers, professional developers whose
careers depended on hou good our products were - to respond to reader
card surveys.
You're using the 'net. This is good. Put good supplemental
information on the 'net, because 'net folks tend to have a higher
percentage of gamers and they also have a higher amount of disposable
income. The 'net is a beautiful medium for your sort of product,
because your cost-of-printing is a serious budget issue. You can put
lots of cool stuff up on a web site, things that couldn't make it into
the printed version. Measure that activity too - ask users if they'd
buy supplements with that information. See what kind of response you
get. This will allow you to measure areas that you don't have a
chance to measure through normal channels. Topics and types of
supplements that don't have physical analogs for you to watch.
Darrin Kelley writes:
> [...a lot of stuff about Fuzion deleted for brevity...]
> But there is a general complaint that I have had with most of the
> Champions supplements that needs to be addressed also. Most of the books
> have been collections of characters or weaponry. Very few, if ever, have
> managed to capture the heroic element that is so integral to the genre
> itself. In fact, even the Champions rulebook itself, has never really
> done anything to illustrate that element. What I believe needs to be
> done in a 5th Edition, besides some rules fixes and the addition of more
> examples, is a better and more detailed explanation of the superhero
> genre and the very atmosphere itself. Especially with emphasis put on
> the heroic element itself.
Too true.
Image is more than just art and layout. As some others have
commented, the content has to work for the image too. Most of the
Hero material, historically, has been very nuts 'n bolts oriented. I
like that, but I recognize that I'm weird. Stuff I like is not going
to endear the material to the general public (or even to the narrower-
but-still-far-different-than-I gaming public). As long as the content
is still there, I and people like me will have no problem living with
the form. The text and the organization needs to be focused on
creating the atmosphere that will sell the product and the product
line.
Part of this is very practical nuts 'n bolts issues. The game
system is unwieldly to learn, action is slow until everybody becomes
practiced. Some of this is unavoidable. Some can certainly be, not
eliminated, but worked around to "jumpstart" players into the game.
For example, most supplements do not supply nearly enough
information for the characters and constructs within. They give a
blob of numbers and stats and maybe half a page of background and
leave the rest to the GM. A neophyte GM is definitely *not* going to
find this easy to work with. Also, most supplements give the bare
bones of stats necessary and assume the GM will work up whatever else
is needed, on the fly, as it comes up. Again, a neophyte GM is not
going to find it easy going.
What it boils down to is, it takes a lot of experience with and
knowledge of the system before a player - even an experienced RPGer -
will feel comfortable running their own game. Remove that barrier
to entry and you'll see more games starting up. How about producing
a supplement full of information about "everyday" life? Both stats
and actual background data.
For example, what are the typical game stats for police vehicles?
Police weapons? How big is a typical police station? Where are they
usually located? How quickly will they usually respond to calls?
What about national guard armories? Military bases? Intelligence
organizations? The FBI? How much police protection is usually
present at a courthouse in a large urban center? You can't expect the
GM to be an aficianado of crime & crime-stopping techniques. Think
about the typical things that might come up in planning a scenario.
Build a supplement that covers these topics.
A tall order, I realize, but something to plan for the future.
Meanwhile, build your individual supplements with a lot more
information, make a lot less assumptions about what the GM will be
able to wing for him/herself. Also, think about describing villains
in practical terms, what they can do, how to use them, how they think
and what strategies they use. Include the stats at the end, but
describe the powers and abilities in normal english, first, and point
out weaknesses, implications, ways the powers work or don't work.
Don't assume that the GM will work them out.
I find most supplements useless because they don't supply that
sort of information. It's no great challenge working things out
myself (I've been playing this game a *long* time) but if I'm going to
do all the work, what's the point in buying the supplement? More
importantly, what's the neophyte GM going to do? One of the old
supplements, can't remember its name, was very popular because it was
essentially a huge pile of campaign notes from one particular campaign
("Allstars" or something like that?). I suspect it was popular
precisely because it contained a lot of the normally assumed
information.
Additionally, there are numerous tactics for speeding up the
awkward game mechanics. Yes, as you learn them things speed up, but
by then it's too late. Include some discussion of tactics and
strategies for speeding up character building and combat. Include
more information in predigested format, for example if you have a
"standard" hero team then include a combat sheet with dex/speed charts
and everything, pre-filled in with the standard heroes and the
villains from the supplement. Include a set of "cheat sheets" for the
villains, short summaries of critical combat numbers and powers that
the GM can use to refer to while running combat, instead of flipping
through the supplement.
For character building, one excellent GM I know always keeps a
folder full of "generic" characters around to hand to new players.
Generic brick, generic martial artist, generic energy projector, etc.
Their powers are fairly vanilla to a long-time player, but he gives
them interesting descriptions, backgrounds, personalities (e.g. one
was a brick who had been a professional hockey goalie [Friday the
13th, anybody?]. His big schtick was 20 extra BODY with the special
effect/limitation "legally dead at 0 body". His hobby was
wallpapering his room with death certificates. A boring character by
the numbers, but fun for a newbie to play.
Take a generic, give it a quirk or two, and the new player can
have a ball without going crazy trying to learn a system. Include a
substantial library of heroes in the book. And a separate substantial
library of villains - I never did find that hero/villain approach from
4th edition very effective. An nice idea in theory - keep the players
on their toes, they can't make assumptions. But an experienced GM
doesn't need it and an inexperienced GM probably isn't really ready to
take advantage of it. Just include two separate sets of characters.
Heroes that don't get used can be NPCs. Speaking of which, include
some background and suggested NPC uses for each hero.
As far as speeding up combat, you can suggest some simple tactics
to help the neophyte GM speed up the process - like always making a
dex chart at the beginning of every session. You can also use this
process as a "role call" of sorts, helping the players focus on the
game. You can suggest some shortcuts, like having the GM just roll
his own die to decide which same dex/speed character goes first, or
only doing it once per adventure until they're up to speed.
You could include a "kit" - or sell it separately, although that
seems like something of an oxymoron since it's intended for new
players - of tools to speed up play. I used to have a file full of
ideas for this sort of thing - starting with using a large 12-sided
die to keep track of phases. Another thought is to build a "deck" of
combat maneuver cards. Each card has all the pertinent details,
almost like a card game. Each player gets a deck of cards and can use
them to choose what they'll do, lay them down in front of their
character sheet so the GM and players can remember what they're doing,
what modifiers to apply, etc. Likewise the GM might have some cards
(like a "character prone" card, or an "entangled" card, etc).
It'd be fairly easy for the GM to build their own decks of cards
out of index cards, and in fact I've done this once or twice just for
fun. But I'm not your target audience, and the people who are your
targt audience won't be experienced enough to build their own decks.
So provide some cards for them.
I've always found the "cardboard heroes" from Steve Jackson Games
to be great for increasing the feel of the game. Giving a new player
a concrete image to focus on helps them get into the swing of things.
Villains & Vigilantes used flat cardboard counters for a similar
purpose. Perhaps you could work out an agreement with SJG to let you
distribute your own version of cardboard heroes with the Champions
book.
I understand that a lot of these are ideas that would involve
serious revision to existing material, and that GRG simply may not be
able to afford that, yet. While I think the whole "new look" idea is
too important to put off, perhaps in the meantime you could put a lot
of these concepts together into a "starter pack", bundled with a
purchase of the BBB, specifically marketed & targeted at new players.
Make sure you have a stack of starter packs available at each big
convention, and make sure you ask the GMs of each hero game at the con
to mention it to the players. Maybe give each GM a dozen discount
coupons to hand out to deserving players.
Well, that's enough for one night. As you can see, these are
simple ideas with lots of implications, but it boils down to three
things. One, develop your image. Two, promote the hell out of it.
Three, make it more practically easy for new players to get into the
game.
Do all of these. Don't imagine you can let any one element
slide. You're going to have to rework the material to develop a new
image anyway, so you might as well enhance the content to lower the
barriers to entry for new players. I know about the kind of work
involved; I've published half a dozen books as a professional
technical writer, so I'm not ignorant of the implications of what I'm
saying. But doing this will make your success.
Steven J. Owens
puff@netcom.com
puff@rt1.net
http://www.rt1.net/puff
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:57:50 -0800
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Saturday, December 20, 1997 10:59 PM, Firelynx16 wrote:
>In a message dated 97-12-21 02:24:07 EST, you write:
>
><<
> >In a message dated 97-12-19 17:09:35 EST, you write:
> <snip>
> >If you change a normal human
> >(25-50 points) into a vampire (let's see anyone make an effective
> vampire for
> >25 points)
> <snip>
>
> As you wish.:)
>
> <<Actually, my method gives you a workable vampire for ZERO points.
> That's right, zero.>>
<snip>
>
>So you're using Transform to change a 25 point character into a 100
point
>character and you're *not* increasing the point total????? Remember,
we're
>talking about changing a normal into an effective vampire with
Transform.
Well, it depends upon how you look at it. I said it gave a vampire for
zero points, but "gave" and "zero points" are unclear and debatable
terms. There are several arguments that could be made, but I'll admit
they are all stretching things a bit. However, virtually all arguments
on the subject allow for adding points, so long as they are balanced
by Disadvantages. I do that.
>Also, you can't give someone a power on their character sheet without
paying
>points for it... there's mininum costs to deal with. If you don't
have the
>minimum costs, you don't have the power, and no amount of Transfer
will
>increase it to usable levels, since it doesn't exist.
Hmm. There seems to be some disagreement on this point. Some people
think that you should be able to do such a thing, but many think that
it should be at half power.
>I do like your idea though, about the powers being baseline weak and
dependent
>on blood intake, but IMHO, there are many more powers a vampire
should have
>that need to be included in your base set list... like a HKA for the
fangs,
>for instance... fangs aren't just used for the 'transfer' of the
power, they
>also make handy weapons, and shouldn't be dependent upon how much
blood the
>vampire has drunk.
Well, actually, I think a HKA is a rotten way to represent fangs. When
was the last time you saw a vampire bite down a door; bite someone's
arm off, bite themselves free from chains, or any use of the fangs
except creating small punctures to drain blood? If a vampire's fangs
are useful only for making tiny punctures to allow the sucking of
blood, then a Transfer with a slow return isn't unreasonable. You
still lose BODY either way. Additionally, after killing the first
victim, my vampire could have those other powers.
You could add some things to my vampire. For example, you could give
him more points by using the Transform to reduce all abilities already
existing to a minimum, and turn them into points. Then, claim that the
vampire awakens in a dazed, animal state, and only "clears his mind"
with the drinking of blood. If you want to create usable vampires,
then you protect them until they are strong enough to hunt on their
own.
However, I have a solution to the problem of minimum costs. Instead of
a +3 STR, try this:
3 VPP, 2 pt pool, Only for Vampiric powers (-1/2)
The Transfer to Vampiric Powers feeds directly to the pool.
Now you have the necessary minimum in everything.:) (Please don't tell
me this is a rotten idea, I already know that. It's intended to be
humorous, though it could be useful for a character who has enormous
versatility, but is an incredible wimp unless fed power.)
Hmmm.
Socket Man
Socket Man was granted the power to create incredibly versatile cosmic
effects by aliens, but the aliens left before they could give him a
power source. Since he has the ability to accept the power the power
source would have given him, he solves this problem by plugging
himself into a wall socket.
15 VPP(5), Cosmic (+2)
17 1d6 Absorption, +10 max., feeds to maximum Absorption and VPP,
fade 5/day (+1 1/2), only vs electricity (-1/2)
Since wall sockets do damage, he could charge up quickly with this
power to an absolutely enormous power level.
Make him a bit of a wimp, and he could be bought as a Normal.:)
Filksinger
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 04:20:17 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Official Rulings (was Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:47 PM 12/21/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< You have got to be kidding. How could WoTC patent the idea of the CCG? >>
>
> They aren't. They're patenting the way *their* CCGs are played (turning
> cards to represent "tapping," etc.). It's supposed to promote "original"
> CCG designs, according to Adkinson.
Uh, no. The patent is clearly aimed at patenting "customizability" as its
central focus (the only thing specific to M:tG is "reorienting" cards to
indicate use). And Peter Adkinson has said ("Parting Shot", PREVIEWS) that
he intends to go balls to the wall on ALL CCGs -- he considers it something
in the way of a moral obligation to gaming to keep us "original". :/
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 03:35:00 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Cry for Vehicle Help
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Nic Neidenbach wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm running a game tonight, and I need a write up for a V-TOL. It needs to
> carry about a dozen heroes, fly pretty fast, and have some armor. I'm in
> such a rush to get the adventure finished, I don't think I'll have time to
> puzzle though the rules for vehicles. Anyone have something laying around
> they can email me?
Bob! Bob! This is your cue! It's what you were *meant* to do!
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:02:11 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition thoughts
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 08:10 PM 12/18/97, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:36:46 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>>>DUPLICATION: one heals a lost duplicate as if the points were BODY or must
>>>define a given circumstance to get the dead duplicate back... you should
not
>>>lose points for having a duplicate killed any more
>>
>> Good idea. Permanently dead Duplicates should take a Limitation.
>
>Yes, just like Independent (-2)
Similar to, perhaps, but not the same. There are characteristics to
Independent that I'm not sure belong on a Duplicate (though I could be
mistaken here; I'd have to read through the description, and I'm not going
to have a whole lot of time for that kind of thing until the New Year).
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:05:35 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:04 AM 12/20/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "TB" == Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> writes:
>
>>> Seriously, it reads, "however, Transform shouldn't be used to create
>>> useful things like weapons or gold."
>
>TB> A restriction which appears with reference specifically to using
>TB> Transform to _create_ things.
>
>No, a reference to using Tranform to create *useful* things -- to wit,
>things that cost character points. If it costs points, you should not use
>Transformation to achieve that end.
On this specific point, I have to agree with you here, Rat. When
creating out of thin air something which costs points, I tend to go with
Summon.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:14:09 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Building A Super Hero World
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 04:18 AM 12/21/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote:
>WatchTower is a global organization dedicating to combating Super
>Human and related threats. The group is semi private. It traces
>it's origins to a private group formed after the second world war.
The only feedback I can think of to give you right off the top of my
head isa recommendation of changing the organization's name. It's a good
name in principle, but also happens to be the name of the publishing arm
for the Jehovah's Witnesses.
As a replacement, I suggest WatchGuard.
As for a reason to ban super-soldiers, I'm about as lost as you are.
Perhaps a couple of incidents where they went berserk or at least rogue
(which could become the basis for one or more villains), and/or a human
rights outcry against experimenting on humans to create the super-soldiers
(in which case android super-soldiers might still be legal, if impractical).
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:18:01 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Changing +1/2 to +0.5
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 07:58 PM 12/20/97 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote:
[Well-written desription cut]
>How 'bout it, folks? Good idea/bad idea?
Good idea in principle, but too radical of a change for official
publication such as in a 5th edition of Hero.
However, you might consider writing it up as an article (with value
descriptions for all existing Advantages and Limitations) and submitting it
to either one of the various fanzines and APAzines floating around, or to
Digital Hero.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:30:49 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Cry for Vehicle Help
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 03:35 AM 12/21/97 -0800, Captain Spith wrote:
>Nic Neidenbach wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm running a game tonight, and I need a write up for a V-TOL. It needs to
>> carry about a dozen heroes, fly pretty fast, and have some armor. I'm in
>> such a rush to get the adventure finished, I don't think I'll have time to
>> puzzle though the rules for vehicles. Anyone have something laying around
>> they can email me?
>
> Bob! Bob! This is your cue! It's what you were *meant* to do!
Oh, right! No pressure, eh? :-]
Unfortunately, I think I'm too late, but I can just expand a little on
the write-ups Michael Surbrook has done for the Moller vehicles (see his
website):
Val CHA Cost
40 STR 0
16 BODY 0
6 Size 30
12 DEF 30
20 DEX 30
4 SPD 10
Characteristics Cost: 100
Cost Equipment
70 VTOL Flight: +30" Flight (36" Total), 8X NCM
2 Radio Listen/Transmit, OIF
3 Parchute: Gliding 8", Trigger: when engines fail, OAF, steep decline
(-1)
Equipment Cost: 75
Total Vehicle Cost: 175
Flavor with Disadvantages to taste.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:38:48 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: National Super Teams
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:12 AM 12/21/97 +1000, happyelf wrote:
>>>PS: My national super team can kick your national super team any day *l*
>>*j/k*
>>
>> Without even seeing what Phase II is like (they've never been published;
>>Champions Down Under has never been more than a suggestion), there's little
>>doubt that they (or any other national superteam, like the Sentinels and
>>the New Knights) could beat the stuffing out of Executive Sanction. But I
>>gather they concentrate less on pitched battle (leaving that to PRIMUS) and
>>concentrate on investigation and such things.
>
>WHAT?!?!?! who the heck thought of phase two??!?! and
>as fer champs down under? data please *g*
Phase II was first mentioned in Champions Universe, and also were
mentioned in the VIPER sourcebook. As for who thought of them, I don't know.
In his description of Captain Australia in Hero System Almanac I, Scott
Heine mentioned in passing that *someone* should write a Champions Down Under.
BTW according to the CU sources, Phase II is only the government's
official superhero team; there's also an independent team in the Outback
who call themselves the Outriders.
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:40:09 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: New Limitation: Puncture
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:15 AM 12/20/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
>F> When an attack takes Puncture, it loses its ability to make big holes.
>F> Examples include rapiers and most firearms. An attack using Puncture
>F> makes small holes only.
>
>You've obviously never seen the massive tissue deformation caused by most
>firearms, especially those with hollowpoints.
By "small holes," I think he means as opposed to a tunnel.
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:45:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Official Rulings (was Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 20 Dec 1997, Brian Wong wrote:
>
> 1. WoTC bought TSR
> 2. WoTC patented CCG's
> a. WoTC announced that ALL CCG's must pay them a licencing fee.
> b. WoTC has said they will be very agressive about pursuing this
You have got to be kidding. How could WoTC patent the idea of the CCG? I
could see patenting and Trademarking Magic... but every form of CCG?
And they plan to sue everyone else who puts out a CCG? That's insane? It
also sounds like a fast way for WoTC to burn off all their profits in
court battles (or more likely, drive everyone else out of business).
> 3. One could make the logic leap that they attempt to claim this right
> for the RPG market due to now owning TSR.
Impossible. They are starting too late and RPGs are too variable in
style. Besides, I do believe they'd run into some very serious opposition
from other companies (amd White Wolf probably has the bucks to fight
them).
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:47:52 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: So What Now?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:43 PM 12/20/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< What about advertising on some of the larger, well trafficked Hero
>related web sites? >>
>
> That would be up to the web site owners. A banner ad would be very nice...
>:)
It would also be fine by me. I'm expecting to have an update (yes,
finally!) around the middle of next month. :-]
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:55:09 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 11:44 PM 12/20/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< Mark, people are only telling you what they perceive, not what is really
>happening>>
>
> Oh, I understand. I apologize if I came across wrong. I do want to know
what
>their perceptions are. It's the best way to know how to approach the
marketing
>angle in order to correct some of the misconceptions.
How about this?: Advertise Hero's return (yes, it has been gone, if
only for a short while) with a poster showing Seeker (the Aussie one),
katana in hand and a grimly determined look on his face, rising from the
rubble of a crushed building, badly injured but clearly ready and able to
continue a fight, with the captaion, "We're not dead yet!"
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 10:44:51 -0500 (EST)
From: dq831@freenet.carleton.ca (Jamie Rosen)
Subject: Re: Building A Super Hero World
Reply-To: dq831@freenet.carleton.ca
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
>
>At 04:18 AM 12/21/97 +0000, Brian Wong wrote:
>>WatchTower is a global organization dedicating to combating Super
>>Human and related threats. The group is semi private. It traces
>>it's origins to a private group formed after the second world war.
>
> The only feedback I can think of to give you right off the top of my
>head isa recommendation of changing the organization's name. It's a good
>name in principle, but also happens to be the name of the publishing arm
>for the Jehovah's Witnesses.
> As a replacement, I suggest WatchGuard.
Ick. I think WatchTower is much better...sure, the Jehovah's Witnesses
publishing arm is called that. It's also a real word, which (IMHO) can do
wonders for the believability of a fictional organization.
> As for a reason to ban super-soldiers, I'm about as lost as you are.
>Perhaps a couple of incidents where they went berserk or at least rogue
>(which could become the basis for one or more villains), and/or a human
>rights outcry against experimenting on humans to create the super-soldiers
>(in which case android super-soldiers might still be legal, if impractical).
Well, drawing on some IST background, how about "the smaller countries in
the UN saw how the military super teams gave the larger nations an even
bigger advantage, and began petitioning the UN for a ban. The UN put
together an international team made of the 'official' supers from these
smaller countries to help enforce the ban on military supers around the
world."
And don't forget that not all countries are members of the UN, so you will
still have some military supers from 'outlaw nations' running around.
--
Jamie Rosen - author, bad seed, and layabout on rec.arts.comics.creative
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mistake is just experience in the present tense.
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:14:36 -0700
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Off topic good news
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
This is a completely off topic post, but I thought I would share the
information. The movie The Princess Bride is being re-realesed to video
in Feb. For those you you (like me) unfortunate enough not to own a
copy, I just wanted to spread the good news.
--
-Mhoram
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your
two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:58:50 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: DP9 Marketing
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>>Imagine 5 meter tall nazi assault robots alongside those panzers.
>
>Almost sounds like one of the Japanese anime I saw Kishin Corps maybe.
>Except some of the mecha they had in there were huge (35m + tall) required a
>crank start and then a lot of vacuum tubes passing a lot of power before the
>main engines got really going and before the next use over half the tubes
>needed replaced. But then what would you expect from vaccuum tubes.....
Well, not quite. The robots in Kishin Corps were generally one-of-a-kind.
Gear Krieg will feature walking assault mecha almost as common as tanks.
To move this back to Champions, the 'aliens' in Kishin Corps had this really
keen plot device - if you shot them, they exploded. But if you cut them with
a sword, they just 'died'. Wonderful game world contrivance to force people
to tote around those swords, neh? :-). Anyway, I'm hoping TUSV will feature
a lot of 'defined' vehicle disadvantages, stuff like Maximum Ceiling,
Maximum Climbing Angle, Requires a Runway...
Say, will the dangerous effects of various propulsion features be explained
as Champs powers? Helicopter blades would be a Burnout HKA linked to Flight,
or an RKA to simulate jetwash, etc. etc...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Subject: Re: So What Now?
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-16,18-20
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:12:32 EST
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>><< But advertising is still a good idea. Game magazines is one way,
>game
>>stores is another. Not everything costs $10,000 >>
>>
>> Yes, I realize that, Scott. My point was only that some forms of
>advertising
>>are a bit beyond our means right now. But I did ask for suggestions
>and I
>>appreciate the ones sent in so far. Keep the ideas coming! :D
>
>What about advertising on some of the larger, well trafficked Hero
>related web sites? Most of them are labors-of-love and I'm sure that
>if you selected a few and asked them to advertise Hero products they
>would be thrilled. Heck, some of them may be willing to allow
>advertising for discounts in products, etc. I'm sure you could work
>something out.
What about web sites run by comic/game stores? Perhaps you could work
out an ad exchange with them.
Leah
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 14:19:50 EST
Subject: Re: The Future of Hero 4.
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< Try to have a constant flow of products coming out, and promote each one,
before it comes out, as it comes out, and after it comes out.>>
At what point does this become a negative factor, though? I mean, some of
the gripes about Fuzion is that is was over hyped. I'm not saying I agree with
that assertion, but it has been stated here...
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 14:22:57 EST
Subject: Steven J. Owens' Letter
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
(Re: Steven J. Owens' letter)
Although I'm not going to respond to your individual points, I do want to
thank you for your letter. It was obvious to me that you put a lot of time and
thought into it, and I greatly appreciate your comments. In fact, I am printed
it out and am going to punch 3 holes in it and stick it in my "Marketing"
folder.
Mark @ GRG
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Mage-style magic in Hero...
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 21 Dec 1997 14:30:13 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> writes:
L> How would you do Mage-style (from White Wolf's Mage:The Ascension, one
L> of the Noun:The Noun series of games) magic in Hero?
It can be tricky, not because of the mechanics, but because Mage magic is
extremely chaotic. Many of the effects possible are combinations of
Powers, and that can require much time to crunch.
Start with a Variable Power Pool with the ability to reconfigure as a
0-phase action. A skill roll to reconfigure is required.
If the GM wants to save time he and the players can wing it -- which is
what they have to do with Mage anyway -- and guestimate the active cost of
an effect instead of crunching the numbers. If the GM thinks it will fit
in a character's pool, it will, otherwise it will not. Players and GMs
should compile a set of effects that the characters may frequently attempt
to use. That should give everyone a good benchmark for effects created on
the fly.
Each "sphere" is represented by a 3-point skill for a base 11- roll, +1 for
2 points. These skills are used to configure the VPP. Much as in Mage,
the highest ranked sphere required for an effect determines which skill is
rolled to reconfigure the VPP. Lesser spheres may be used as complimentary
skills -- remember that making a skill roll requires a certain ammount of
time, so if you use three or four sphere skills as complimentary skills,
you may requuire several full Turns to cast.
Paradox is handled as Unluck, as acquired as a form of Side Effect
limitation. 'Obvious' magic acquires a Side Effect limitation at half
normal value, because it might not actually slap him. Acquired Unluck
(Paradox) can be "gotten rid of" by trading it for other disadvantages, or
otherwise as per "normal".
It has been almost two years since I've played a Mage mage, so this
probably needs a bit of work to get "right".
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
\
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: New Limitation: Puncture
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 21 Dec 1997 14:34:22 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
F> However, a .44 Magnum cannot make such a hole. Since such a hole is
F> extremely useful at times, it is at least worth noting that this is a
F> limitation, if not a Limitation.
You are not thinking it through. With my .44 Magnum, the most powerful
handgun in the world, I do not need to blow a hole in the door, I just need
to shoot out the lock. :)
It is not a flaw in the rules, it is the -0 SFX advantages/limitations that
any power may have. Some Energy Blasts can blast holes in walls, some
cannot... but the ones that cannot may be used for doing things like being
used at low power to flip a switch or push a button, things that the
"wider" effects cannot do. And before you call me on, "but that is TK!"
let me just mention that it is also clever use of a power. If you do it
once you can get away with it. If you do it frequently, then you have to
pay for it.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
\ head.
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 14:42:01 EST
Subject: Interpol
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< The UN has a branch of Interpol dedicated to dealing with international
Super Crime. While they are global their jurisdiction is limited to
International incidents. The bulk of their forces are non Super in nature. >>
INTERPOL
This is just FYI (and I'm not trying to criticize or invalidate your world
<G>): Interpol, if memory serves, is an independent agency, not linked to the
UN.
OPERATING IN OTHER COUNTRIES
The following I know for certain. I did some research on Interpol for "Law
and Order." I provide the info here for general consumption. ;)
Interpol's jurisdiction is global... in a sense. The jurisdiction of their
agents (who are law enforcement officers from their own respective countries;
see below) is limited to that which the country they are operating in
*affords* them. Period.
For example; An Interpol team consisting of an American, Spanish and Italian
agent goes to France to apprehend an international fugitive. The team must
first contact the French liaison agency and get permission to operate in
France. While in France, the Interpol team must adhere to the same laws and
"limitations" or "regulations" placed on French police. So if French police
cannot shoot unless first shot *at*, then niether can the Intrpol team. If the
French police can kick in a door and search without a warrant, then so can the
Interpol team. Follow me?
AGENTS FROM VARIOUS COUNTRIES
There is one national law enforcement agency designated by each member
country which acts as the official Interpol "liaison" in that country, and
most (if not all) of the Interpol agents from that country are from that one
agency.
For example: In the United States, the federal Dept. of Justice (DOJ) is our
Interpol liaison agency, and most of the American Interpol agents are also DOJ
agents (or from the FBI, ATF, etc, which are all under the DOJ). I believe the
liaison agency for Britain is Scotland Yard; for France is the French National
Police; for Japan, the Japanese Natl. Police; for Canada, the Royal Canadian
Mounted Police; etc.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 14:45:29 EST
Subject: "I'm not dead yet!"
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< with the captaion, "We're not dead yet!" >>
"You hear that. He says he's not dead yet. I can't take him."
"He'll be stone dead in a moment."
<LOL>
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 14:47:31 EST
Subject: Re: Official Rulings (was Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...)
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
<< You have got to be kidding. How could WoTC patent the idea of the CCG? >>
They aren't. They're patenting the way *their* CCGs are played (turning
cards to represent "tapping," etc.). It's supposed to promote "original" CCG
designs, according to Adkinson.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 14:50:47 EST
Subject: Link Exchanges
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< What about web sites run by comic/game stores? Perhaps you could work
out an ad exchange with them.>>
Could you imagine our web site with 200+ link and banner exchanges on it?
<LOL> It would be a huge site of 1001 links.
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 15:01:32 EST
Subject: Re: Building A Super Hero World
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<< From there on I'm stuck, I need a reason why they were banned globally, yet
I still want a golden age feel to the era. >>
Involvement in war crimes? I would think that'd be a biggie!
"Threat to humanity" stuff always works for me. ;)
Perhaps they were associated with the "Commie Reds" during the post-WW2,
1950s Red Scare?
Mark @ GRG
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 15:01:33 EST
Subject: Re: Official Rulings (was Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...)
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This thread has gotten off topic so I won't be reading them or responding to
them any more. Just FYI. :)
Mark @ GRG
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:15:58 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Official Rulings (was Re: GRG: The Fuss over Fuzion...)
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Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
> On Sat, 20 Dec 1997, Brian Wong wrote:
>
> > 2. WoTC patented CCG's
>
> You have got to be kidding. How could WoTC patent the idea of the CCG? I
> could see patenting and Trademarking Magic... but every form of CCG?
One