Week Ending January 3, 1998

From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:12:28 EST 
Subject: Re: Punching and Stun and such... 
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In a message dated 97-12-27 16:30:15 EST, filkhero@usa.net writes:  
 
> >IMO an important feature of a four-color world (or of any highly 
>  cinematic 
>  >world) is the ability to remain heroic while doing things that would 
>  be 
>  >profoundly criminal in the real world. 
>   
>  If my players do something that would be profoundly criminal in the 
>  real world, they may very well be arrested. What "profoundly criminal" 
>  behavior do you feel is necesary for cinematic worlds? 
 
>From my essay "The Evil that Good Guys Do" which Vox Ludator has kindly 
published on his web page (http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html) 
 
*	Cinematic heroes tend to ignore the rules; they often don't follow the laws, 
*regulations, social norms, and moral standards that apply to ordinary people. 
*They are outlaw-heroes, even in cases where their activities are approved of 
by 
*the authorities and the general population. Conan is a bloody-handed 
barbarian. *James Bond is a womanizer and a cold-blooded killer. "Dirty Harry" 
is a maverick 
*cop who uses a non-regulation .44 Magnum. Even "boy-scout" heroes like 
*Superman and Captain America wear funky costumes, beat people up, violate 
*FAA regulations, and otherwise behave eccentricly.  
*	More importantly, the audience cheers on the actions of cinematic heroes 
even 
*when the authorities and general population don't approve. Furthermore, the 
*audience cheers on the outlaw-heroes even when their activities are actual 
*crimes that the audience ought to disapprove of - and that the audience 
actually 
*does disapprove of in real life. Part of the cinematic storyteller's art is 
to soften 
*and disguise the evil and criminal appearance of the outlaw-hero's actions so 
that 
*the audience can overlook and forgive the evil nature of those acts. This 
allows 
*the audience to vicariously enjoy the pleasures of the hero's outlawry 
without 
*feeling guilt or revulsion.  
 
Erol K. Bayburt 
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow 
 
From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:12:31 EST 
Subject: Re: Punching and Stun and such... 
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In a message dated 97-12-27 17:50:02 EST, GoldRushG@aol.com writes:  
 
> <, If and only if the players and GM define or 'benchmark' the descriptives 
>  ahead 
>  of time. Otherwise the players and GM risk developing diverging views about 
>  what's "really" happening in the game world. >> 
>   
>    And this is a bad thing?  
 
YES. It is a Bad Thing.  
 
> How often do thrtee people perceive the same  
> exact 
>  thing in different ways? All the time! I can tell you from years of taking 
>  statements and writing police reports that you *never* get the same story  
> from 
>  tow people if they are interviewed separately. That's just an inherent part 
> of 
>  human perception and interpretation. As such, I see nothing wrong with it 
in  
> a 
>  game.  
 
Remind me to never ever play a game with you as GM. Even the most diceless and 
description based roleplayers over on rec.games.frp.advocacy recognize how 
lethal assumption clash can be to a game.  
 
As you say, human eyewitnesses misperceive things. But players, being human, 
misperceive the GM in just that way as well. The GM must therefore strive to 
be exceptionally clear in his descriptions - as nearly clear as possible as 
the actual event. Otherwise what the players will end up with will be a twice- 
blurred understanding of a second-hand account rather than the once-fuzzed 
understanding of a first-hand account. Ambigious description on the GM's part 
will turn the player's understanding of events into the equivalent of hearsay 
rather than the equivalent of an eyewitness account.  
 
> Eventually, the players will learn to interpret your descriptions. No 
>  big thing. But I agree it is up to the GM to be consistent and fair in his 
>  descriptions. 
 
"Eventually" isn't soon enough. Waiting for the players to "eventually" learn 
to interpret your descriptions is like the healing of an old-fashioned 
amputation - it's a race between the rotting of the ligatures and the onset of 
gangrene. It does sometimes work, but IMO it isn't good technique.  
 
>   
>  << "Cinematic" is a description of the way the game-world *works* not a 
>  description of the way the game-world is *described*. >> 
>   
>    You are thinking in too narrow terms (i.e., in gaming convention).  
 
I prefer to think of it as using words precisely.  
 
> A 
>  cinematic style can be achieved in describing things. Your terminology, use 
> of 
>  "cut scenes" (or scenes in which the PCs are not a part of), epilogues, and 
> so 
>  on, can all be used to good effect, IMO. But they can also be used with  
> games 
>  that are, IMHO, not cionematic at all, like Call of Cthulhu, Aftermath, and 
> so 
>  on. 
 
And this is a good thing?  
 
If you, as GM, say that you are going to run a "cinematic" game, and the 
players think "swashbuckling heroics" while you think "film noir with 
flashbacks, cut scenes, etc." then you and your players are headed for a 
horrible conceptual pile-up.  
 
>   
>    It all comes down to a matter of preferred style, as you alluded to. 
>   
>    Mark @ GRG 
>   
 
Erol K. Bayburt 
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow 
 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: Re: Too much Knockback 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:49:57 -0500 
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>At 01:32 PM 12/23/97 -0200, Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria wrote: 
 
>>    I have a ninja-like character, with a quite powerful sword: 3d6K. He 
has 30 STR, so a normal hit with his sword would do 5d6K, with an average of 
17.5 body. The 3d6 of knockback roll has an average of 10.5, which give us an 
average of 7" = 14 meters of knockback. I guess 14 meters is more than half 
basketball court... don't you think this is too much ?  
    I don't think his STR is the cause of quite big knockback, because a 
punch with that STR would do no knockback on average. << 
 
 
Bob Greenwade Responds: 
 
>   That's not really that outrageous.  Remember, it's not *just* the STR 
that's behind the knockback; the mass of the sword makes quite a contribution 
(considering that's what's behind 60% of the base damage). 
   Like the character's STR, the sword also will do no Knockback on average.  
It's the *combination* of the two that is so devastating.  And at 5d6K, we 
shouldn't be surprised; if someone capable of lifting a small car off the 
ground were to hit me at full board with a sword some 5' long, I'd probably 
go sailing a ways. 
   Also, I don't tend to think of Knockback as *necessarily* meaning the 
character goes flying through the air.  I once got into a brief fight with 
someone (back when my body was a little more capable of such things, and my 
temper a little more prone to it) and ended it when I smacked him a good one 
in the chops.  He stumbled back a good six feet before falling to the ground. 
 That could be considered Knockback (in this case, one inch in game scale). 
   (Murphy's Rule: in fights between average normals, one successful blow out 
of 1296 will send the recipient flying back 8 meters.) < 
 
 
I think that's the best way to treat Knockback at the low end of the damage 
scale, with normals sometimes sending each other stumbling or staggering back 
several meters. 
 
I don't like the existing rule where serious damage is concerned.  It lacks 
the four-color feel of the Thing or Iron Man punching the villain a country 
mile.  And does anyone remember Wolverine getting punched into orbit during 
the X-Men's first encounter with the Shi'ar? 
 
For such attacks, my take is to equate the final "BODY" of the Knockback 
after the Knockback dice roll is subtracted, not with inches of distance, but 
with a guestimate of the kinetic energy of the body as it goes flying back.  
As I mentioned in a previous thread, I treat 1 DC as roughly equal to 50 
joules, doubling the energy with every additional DC.  At 4 BODY of 
Knockback, the fellow travels back with a kinetic energy of 400 joules, not a 
lot of velocity for a 100 kg mass, less than 3 meters/second.  At 12 BODY of 
Knockback, that's 100 kJ for a velocity of 45 meters/second, quite a wallop.  
   
 
Treat the mighty Knockback as projectile motion with the character sailing at 
about a 30-degree angle, plug in a fudge factor for air resistance, and I get 
a table of numbers ranging into the kilometers for the mightiest of blows.  
The distances don't need to be measured out to the last meter, I'd just like 
to know generally where the character lands so that, assuming he survives the 
blow, I know how long it takes him to get back to the scene of the fight.  
The damage inflicted when the character finally lands still follows the 
official rules. 
 
I'm also considering tinkering with the dice rolled for Knockback.  Say, roll 
only 1d6 for Knockback, and Knockback energy is on the average 1/8 to 1/16 
that of damage energy, rather than the current average of 1/128 on a result 
of 7 on 2d6.  Roll one more d6 for a martial arts attack, two more d6 for a 
killing attack.  Roll an additional d6 for AP attacks of a keenly impaling or 
piercing type. 
 
A character throwing for distance has the chance to hurl the body at a more 
advantageous 45-degree angle, and is able to put his STR into the throw 
rather than dividing it between damage energy and Knockback energy, so he can 
achieve even greater distances. 
 
This makes movement powers important for those who love a high-power 
slugfest.  It's embarrassing to have to hail a cab to get back to the guy who 
just energy blasted or threw you. 
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:53:23 EST 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
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 << >There's no consensus on STR.  It is *NOT* overpriced.  It's cost is  
  >balanced with Power Frameworks.   I'm glad it won't be changed, it  
  >would, litterally, break the system.  
   
  Um ... you get literally more than you pay for.  It is thus, by definition, 
  overpriced.  Arguments that "it's balanced so that bricks can compete with 
  energy projectors" are sophistry, because this isn't AD&D -- under the 
  current system, I can have an energy-projecting brick, AND THERE'S NO REASON 
  NOT TO! STR pays for itself -- why not jack it up as high as possible?  
 >> 
  
 That's what the GM is for... to make sure her/his players keep their 
characters within conception.  Strength is, IMHO, correctly priced.  A good 
way to check the value of its price is to look at the Champions write ups in 
HSR.  They are all 250pts, and are pretty well balanced amongst themselves, 
and the villains and other heros that are listed later in the book.  And this 
really holds true for all GM approved, balanced, 250pt characters.  If you 
were to increase the price of Str, Obsidian and Defender would would have to 
become weaker than their teammates, either in combat effectiveness, or in 
campaign/character effectiveness.  And both Obsidian and Defender aren't even 
archetype Bricks, since they've both used means other than just buying 
straight Str.  Just imagine how it would be if they were Bricks bought like 
Ogre.  You'd either lose a lot of non-combat 'character building' things, or 
you'd have a low powered Brick.  In Ogre's case, you just have an 
underpowered, unbalanced villain.  Another way to look at it is to see that of 
all these 250pt characters in HSR, those who are Bricks aren't out of balance 
with the other 250pt non-Bricks.  If people are contending that Str is too 
cheap, than the Bricks should be more powerful than an equal cost non-Brick, 
and that's just not the case at all.  Bricks are actually, in most cases, the 
least 'fleshed out' characters, because once they spend their points to make 
them equal in power level with everyone else, they, unlike most everyone else, 
don't have points left over to buy a lot of Skills and such that round a 
character out.  For the most part... there are always exceptions.   
 Just my two cents, 
  
 'Lynx  
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:57:40 EST 
Subject: Re: Punching and Stun and such... 
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<< YES. It is a Bad Thing. >> 
 
  Perhaps I am not making myself clear, then. Nobody I have ever talked to or 
gamed with (most of the Hero Games folks, Steve Perrin, Paul Lidberg, Steve 
Long, Chris Avellone, Greg Lloyd and Aaron Allston) have a problem or dislike 
for the kind of "cinematic" approach I'm thinking of. Again, maybe I am 
sending the wrong message here. I'm talking about a style of Gming. I don't 
necessarily *advocate* GMing without revealing stats and numbers to the 
players, but there is certainly a time for revealing things and a time for 
keeping them "secret" for the sake of telling the story. 
 
<< I prefer to think of it as using words precisely. >> 
 
  "Cinematic (adj.) -- Dealing with or related to movies, the cinema or 
theater." 
 
<< Remind me to never ever play a game with you as GM.>> 
 
  It's coments like these that really make me take stock in my participation 
on this list, and make me wonder if it's really worth the time and energy I 
spend making comments, reading comments, and so on. I thought this was a free 
exchange of ideas? If you don't like my ideas, that's fine. You're entitled to 
your opinion and to run your games any way you want. But by the same token, so 
am I. Can't you find a way to convey your thoughts to me without resorting to 
negative comments, insults and other derogatory connotation? 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: Re: New Limitation: Puncture 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:59:30 -0500 
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The existing table for wall BODY has bothered me for some time, in part 
because so many attacks--an anti-tank round, a focused EB, a human-sized 
fist--will usually not make as big as a man-sized hole. 
 
So I came up with a new table for wall BODY, predicated on the making of a 
hole 250-300 square cm in area (.025-.030 square meters), or a circle 7-8" in 
diameter.  That seems a proper size for an AT round or a typical brick's fist 
blow.  For a wall 64 mm in thickness, the BODY value for that potential hole 
(about 1,800 cubic cm of matter) ranges from 2 BODY for ice to 8 BODY for 
hard metal.  This BODY value depends on the matter's density and on its 
relative brittleness, ice being particularly brittle.  For every doubling or 
halving of the wall's thickness, the BODY improves by +1 or decreases by -1. 
 
Whether the hole can be made larger with greater BODY suffered depends on the 
type of attack.  If the damage comes from a killing or an AP attack, then the 
attack simply blows through.  Any target on the other side of the wall hit by 
the attack will take the difference in damage, the damage dice of the 
original attack less the damage dice required to blow through the wall.  I 
suppose a parallel with casual STR can be made here--if the attack's BODY 
damage exceeds twice the total rD and BODY of the wall struck, the attack 
blows through with negligible energy loss. 
 
If the damage comes from an explosion attack, or from a normal attack (such 
as a truck crashing into a house wall, a brick tearing the armor from a tank, 
a broad-beam EB), then for every additional BODY inflicted, the hole's 
surface area doubles.  At +5 BODY, the hole made is about 1 square meter, 
about the surface area of a typical person--most characters could squeeze 
through smaller holes than this, though.  Any damage inflicted to targets on 
the other side of the wall is a judgement call based on the circumstances.  
Maybe the truck crashes clear through the wall, maybe the explosion sends 
chunks of stone or shrapnel flying about.  It depends on the event. 
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: Re: Weapons & Armor 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 01:06:23 -0500 
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On December 25, 1997, Filksinger wrote: 
 
> Incidentally, some antitank armor piercing rounds don't make holes 
in 
armor. Ever here of High Explosive, Plastic (HEP) rounds? They spread 
plastic explosive over a small area of a target and detonate it. The 
armor flexes in such a way that a piece of it is ripped from the 
inner 
side to go careening around the inside of the tank, killing the 
occupants. < 
 
HEP rounds?  Too newfangled for me.  I'm still working my way through 
my stepfather's copy of the U.S. War Department's Handbook on German 
Military Forces, converting WWII weapon systems to the HERO rules.   
 
By the way, I'd rate a 15 DC attack or 5d6 KA (as generated by a 3d6 
HKA sword in the hands of a 30 STR character, discussed in another 
thread on Knockback), as roughly equivalent to some WWII 50-mm guns, 
such as the German Pak 38, capable of dependably penetrating more 
than 50 mm of homogeneous armor.  That's some sword. 
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Play by Email 
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 22:46:05 -0800 (PST) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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>  
> I am interested in Champs Play by EMail. Where can I get into a game or 
> find guidelines for playing/running such a game? 
> 
 
	Try www.pbem.com 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing 
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at 
some point. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 22:56:19 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Breakable Armor 
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A Kirkland wrote: 
>  
> At 11:29 97/12/27 -0800, Robert A. West wrote: 
 
> > 
> >1) Per HSR p. 106, a focus that provides defenses is automatically hit by 
> >any attack that hits the character.  I interpret this to mean hitting the 
> >character's DCV (or the DCV of the Hex, or whatever applies). 
>  
> But on p104/105, it states that an inaccessable focus can Not be hit in 
>         combat. 
 
Actually, you misquote the rules, and moreover do so out of context.  It  
says on p. 104 how you can take away an Accessible Focus. 
 
	An Accessible Focus can be hit by a Grab combat maneuver 
	(see Combat Maneuvers), or by any ranged attack taking an 
	extra -2 OCV . . .   In	either case the attacker must state 
	before he rolls his Attack Roll that he's trying to hit the 
	Focus. * * *  
 
	The Focus is knocked free if the attacker rolls more BODY  
	for his atttack than the defender rolls BODY for his Strength. 
	(For more information, see Disarm). 
 
Clearly, this is not discussing how to destroy a Focus; that topic has  
not even been broached yet, and the foregoing rule applies to Breakable  
and Unbreakable Foci equally.  In the very next paragraph (p. 105), the  
contrasting rule for an Inaccessible Focus is stated:  
 
	An Inaccessible Focus can't be hit with a Grab or a ranged 
	attack while the character is in combat.  However, an  
	Inaccessible Focus can be taken away by someone taking one 
	Turn out of combat.  An Inaccessible Focus cannot be taken 
	away if the character is struggling or resisting. 
 
This obviously refers to hitting the Focus as a Disarm: Inaccessible Foci  
cannot be taken away by that method.  It has no relevance for attacks  
that are intended to break a Focus; otherwise, Breakable and Accessible  
would not be independent decisions, and it is reasonably clear from  
the construction of the section that they are *intended* to be  
independent decisions. 
 
In any event, the rule in the first paragraph of p.105 does not make  
Inaccessible Foci immune to non-grab non-ranged attacks, so the question  
remains. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org> 
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> 
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 07:19:49 +0000 
Subject: Knockback revised - Was Re: Too Much Knockback 
Priority: normal 
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So Sayeth Len Carpenter <redlion@voicenet.com&> 
 
> I think that's the best way to treat Knockback at the low end of the damage 
> scale, with normals sometimes sending each other stumbling or staggering back 
> several meters. 
>  
> I don't like the existing rule where serious damage is concerned.  It lacks 
> the four-color feel of the Thing or Iron Man punching the villain a country 
> mile.  And does anyone remember Wolverine getting punched into orbit during 
> the X-Men's first encounter with the Shi'ar? 
 
Yup. One of my favorite scenes from the old X-men. 
 
> For such attacks, my take is to equate the final "BODY" of the Knockback 
> after the Knockback dice roll is subtracted, not with inches of distance, but 
> with a guestimate of the kinetic energy of the body as it goes flying back. As 
> I mentioned in a previous thread, I treat 1 DC as roughly equal to 50 joules, 
> doubling the energy with every additional DC.  At 4 BODY of Knockback, the 
> fellow travels back with a kinetic energy of 400 joules, not a lot of velocity 
> for a 100 kg mass, less than 3 meters/second.  At 12 BODY of Knockback, that's 
> 100 kJ for a velocity of 45 meters/second, quite a wallop.  
 
I *LIKE* this scheme. What's better, it even fits nicely with the underlying  
logarithmic scheme of body damage inherent in the rules. 
 
> Treat the mighty Knockback as projectile motion with the character sailing at 
> about a 30-degree angle, plug in a fudge factor for air resistance, and I get 
> a table of numbers ranging into the kilometers for the mightiest of blows. The 
> distances don't need to be measured out to the last meter, I'd just like to 
> know generally where the character lands so that, assuming he survives the 
> blow, I know how long it takes him to get back to the scene of the fight. The 
> damage inflicted when the character finally lands still follows the official 
> rules. 
 
I think your post is going into my file of house rules to adopt. 
 
--  
 Stirling Westrup  |  Use of the Internet by this poster 
 sti@cam.org       |  is not to be construed as a tacit 
                   |  endorsement of Western Technological 
                   |  Civilization or its appurtenances. 
 
From: Pat10355 <Pat10355@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 02:43:39 EST 
Subject: Re: Punching and Stun and such... 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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<<I prefer to think of it as using words precisely.>> 
 
Inventing your own definition to a word and then attacking others for not 
adhering to it is not exactly what I'd call "using words precisely." 
 
Besides, there's no need to appropriate "cinematic." The concept you are 
talking about already has a name: "suspension of disbelief." 
 
Filmgoers know that real police don't go around blowing people away willy- 
nilly, but they're willing to suspend their disbelief to enjoy a Dirty Harry 
film. 
 
Likewise, gamers realize that someone who dresses in tights and gets into 
fistfights with similarly-dressed "villains" is going to end up in a loony bin 
in real life, but they are willing to suspend their disbelief for a fun 
evening of Champions. 
 
The question, for both film-makers and GMs, is what level of suspension of 
disbelief will the audience accept? Some people want virtually complete 
freedom of action for their heroes, while others prefer a film or game closer 
to the "real world," with legal limits & consequences to the actions of the 
heroes. 
 
Which perspective is correct for your game? Whichever one you and your players 
enjoy most, regardless of what other gaming groups may do. 
 
Patrick Sweeney 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 23:46:17 -0800 
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On Saturday, December 27, 1997 1:31 PM, Lizard wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>Yup. In comci books, you have "Scientists" -- maybe with some 
>specialty that doesn't really matter:You have biologists repairing 
>spaceships all the time. But in a 'hard science' game, whether Dr. 
>Jones studied astrophysics or chemistry is very important to the 
>scenario. 
<snip> 
 
In a 'hard science' game, whether Dr. Jones studied astrophysics or 
high-energy physics may be pretty important. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Armored Heroes (OIF vs. OIHID) 
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 23:52:23 -0800 
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On Saturday, December 27, 1997 3:59 PM, Eric Burns wrote: 
 
 
>I have a quick question for you veterins out there: which way is 
>generally more effective for simulating armored heroes (like Iron 
>Man), an OIHID on all of the powers, or an OIF Focus?  That is to 
>say, which of these two limitations better represent the limitations 
>that Iron Man, et. al., face in the comic books? 
 
 
That depends a bit on the style of play and the nature of the armor. 
If the armor is readily removed, and particularly if it is hard to 
carry around without wearing it, then it should be a focus. However, 
if the armor is almost never removed and can be carried around easily, 
then it should be OIHID. 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: Pat10355 <Pat10355@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 02:54:56 EST 
Subject: Skill Costs 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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I've started a new thread on the topic of skill costs in Hero System 5th 
Edition to move this discussion into its own arena. 
 
Personally, I like having all the skills cost 3 pts. for a base roll. I don't 
think it's necessary to return to the system of having some cost 5 pts., etc. 
 
On the topic of super-scientists, the Scientist skill enhancer allows the PC 
to buy lots of different science skills fairly cheaply. With Invention and 
Electronics skills, that seems to cover comic-book scientists pretty well. 
 
And allowing biologists to repair starships is more a matter of campaign style 
than rules, IMO. 
 
Patrick Sweeney 
 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 02:26:25 -0600 
From: A Kirkland <ajk117@mail.usask.ca> 
Subject: Re: Breakable Armor 
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At 22:56 97/12/27 -0800, you wrote: 
>A Kirkland wrote: 
>>  
>> At 11:29 97/12/27 -0800, Robert A. West wrote: 
> 
>> > 
>> >1) Per HSR p. 106, a focus that provides defenses is automatically hit by 
>> >any attack that hits the character.  I interpret this to mean hitting the 
>> >character's DCV (or the DCV of the Hex, or whatever applies). 
>>  
>> But on p104/105, it states that an inaccessable focus can Not be hit in 
>>         combat. 
> 
>Actually, you misquote the rules, and moreover do so out of context.  It  
>says on p. 104 how you can take away an Accessible Focus. 
> 
>	An Accessible Focus can be hit by a Grab combat maneuver 
>	(see Combat Maneuvers), or by any ranged attack taking an 
>	extra -2 OCV . . .   In	either case the attacker must state 
>	before he rolls his Attack Roll that he's trying to hit the 
>	Focus.... 
> 
>	The Focus is knocked free if the attacker rolls more BODY  
>	for his atttack than the defender rolls BODY for his Strength. 
>	(For more information, see Disarm). 
 
... and, if the ranged attack does a breakable focus' def + body, the focus 
is destroyed. 
With a Grab, the choice of whether or not to do damage to the foci is  
	up to the attacker ( grab & squeeze vs. grab & control ) 
 
 
>Clearly, this is not discussing how to destroy a Focus; 
>that topic has not even been broached yet, and the foregoing rule applies 
to Breakable  
>and Unbreakable Foci equally. 
 
In order to break it, first you have to hit it. This applies to all foci. 
Defensive foci just change the 
	definition of what is needed to hit it. 
 
> In the very next paragraph (p. 105), the contrasting rule for an 
Inaccessible Focus is stated:  
> 
>	An Inaccessible Focus can't be hit with a Grab or a ranged 
>	attack while the character is in combat.  However, an  
>	Inaccessible Focus can be taken away by someone taking one 
>	Turn out of combat.  An Inaccessible Focus cannot be taken 
>	away if the character is struggling or resisting. 
> 
[ snip section on parallels with Disarm ] 
 
Note -	"An Inaccessible Focus can't be hit with a Grab or a ranged 
	attack while the character is in combat." 
	not can't be disarmed or taken away, but can't be hit at all 
 
>In any event, the rule in the first paragraph of p.105 does not make  
>Inaccessible Foci immune to non-grab non-ranged attacks, so the question  
>remains. 
 
If you interpret it that way, the following can happen: 
	Mr Target ( high rPD & rED ), wearing his Tinfoil body armor ( 1/1 armor, 
OIF, 1def & 1body ), 
	is shot at by the combined military forces of the entire world. His armor 
is not even dented. 
	Then the Man On The Street ( 10 str ) punches him, and the armor crumples. 
This is, of course, impossible. 
The BBB does not say non-grab non-ranged attacks are allowed to hit most 
foci at all. 
 
The Focus section is poorly written and self-contradictory. It states that 
all defense providing foci are always hit, 
	And that inaccesible foci can't be hit. 
But this is HERO so this is old news. Since the very beginning of HERO, it 
has been nessicary 
	to look past what the writers say, to what they really mean 
	( and try not to think about the errors they make in the published 
characters ). 
 
A foci get less of a limitation than Ablative, as you observed. Therefore, 
it is should be less of a problem. 
The most coherent means ( short of rewriting ) to make it work is to allow 
inaccessible foci to be immune to all normal 
	combat effects, (not just grabs and ranged attacks). 
	"Any Focus which provides defenses ..." [and Can Be Hit] "is automatically 
hit by any attack that hits the character." 
For accessible foci, you may want to use DCV levels, such as are suggested 
for shields in the equipment section, 
	or a similar mechanic. Otherwise the foci Will break. 
 
Remember that GM's can change the rules for dramatic effect, or for a good 
SFX. 
	If you want an EMP to zap Defenders suit, it does. 
	On the other hand, Flechette-guy ( 1d6 RKA Penetrating ) shouldn't be able 
to blast 
	chainmail right off a person with every shot. 
 
 
A Kirkland 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Punching and Stun and such... 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:32:41 -0800 
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On Saturday, December 27, 1997 8:22 PM, ErolB1 wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>From my essay "The Evil that Good Guys Do" which Vox Ludator has 
kindly 
>published on his web page (http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html) 
<snip> 
 
For the most part, these people aren't my favorite movie characters. 
Dirty Harry isn't one. Conan both isn't one and, in the movie I saw, 
didn't indiscriminately kill people, but only in self defense and when 
saving others (not the same as the book Conan, true, but that's one of 
the reasons I didn't like the book Conan). James Bond is a character I 
like, but isn't a hero so much as an anti-hero. 
 
Regardless, none of these characters prove the point. They are 
examples where law breaking is part of a particular hero's methods or 
even profession, but they aren't the only heroes, and not all other 
heroes either do evil or break the law (not necessarily the same 
thing). It is not _necessary_ to break the law to be heroic in 
cinematic genres, and it _certainly_ isn't necessary that they do 
_evil_. 
 
As for the "goody two shoes" heroes, many of them rarely if ever break 
the law, and many do while scrupulously avoiding evil. Wearing strange 
costumes, etc, doesn't generally break the law. 
 
BTW, I'll bet Superman breaks a lot fewer laws than you think. 
Virtually all such laws apply to _vehicles_, and Superman is not a 
vehicle. Additionally, you are assuming that the FAA laws in a 
universe where people can fly are the same as ours, which I doubt. 
 
Filksinger 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 06:41:14 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
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At 02:58 PM 12/28/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< The alternative is Fuzion, with it's three different point pools, and no- 
>buying-figured-characteristics... >> 
> 
>  Actually you *can* buy up Derived Stats. It's mentioned in the rules, but 
>requires GM approval and is generally not recommended. But hey, house rules 
>and all... 
 
As I recall, the Fuzion method of buying up figured stats amounts to 
something like this: 
 
We'll pretend that Fuzion uses HERO point costs.  5 points of STR buys +1 
PD.  Ergo, we'll set the cost of PD at 5 points.  Similiarly, +1 REC will be 
5 points, and +1 STUN will be 2 points. 
 
This paradigm is what I ended up calling on the Fuzion list "The candles 
cost the same as the whole cake".  Steve's feelings were that the only 
reason why one would want to buy Derived Stats alone is that they'd already 
maxed out their Primary Stats. 
 
-- 
 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 06:41:16 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Punching and Stun and such... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 02:18 PM 12/28/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>>   It's coments like these that really make me take stock in my 
>> participation on this list, and make me wonder if it's really worth  
>> the time and energy I spend making comments, reading comments, and so 
>> on. I thought this was a free exchange of ideas? If you don't like my 
>> ideas, that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion and to run your  
>> games any way you want. But by the same token, so am I. Can't you find 
>> a way to convey your thoughts to me without resorting to negative 
>> comments, insults and other derogatory connotation? 
 
>	Oh, don't be discouraged. 
>	Erol is forwarding his own, quite unique, opinion.  I only know 
>one or two with a like opinion on gaming, horrid rules lawyers all. 
>	But I'm quite convinced he'd be quite unhappy in a game you ran, 
>and that you'd be quite unhappy having him for a player.  I'd feel quite 
>unhappy having him for a player and he would definately not like my games. 
>	He's a style on his own.  Let him have his say and reasize most of 
>us are just silently finding his remarks quite rediculous. 
 
You know, Tim, if I was Mark, this message would have been condensed into a 
one-word answer: "No."  If anything, this struck me as MORE insulting and 
derogatory in its intent than Erol's comment -- at least he consistently 
uses "I" instead of "we", avoiding the pitfall of speaking for the list in 
entirety.  Not only have you written a borderline flame ("borderline" on 
account that it replaces actual hostility with mere smug contempt), but 
you're stamping it with the "Official Hero List POV" insignia; the end 
result seems less like an expression of honest opinion than a calculated 
character assassination.  To paraphrase Mark's question, can't you find a 
way to convey your thoughts without resorting to dismissing someone as the 
"crazy uncle" of the list that we're merely humoring by deigning to allow 
them to share our august company? 
 
I think Mark has every right to be discouraged, because I often feel the 
same way, except that I'm (usually) not even the target of the comments in 
question; I don't think it's TOO much to ask to think twice about making 
potentially hurtful statements (and yes, I say that full knowing I've 
flubbed up more than once). There's a difference between expressing a point 
and making pointed expressions :/ 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 06:31:02 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 02:34 PM 12/27/97 EST, Doc Tough wrote: 
>     On a general observation, the new addition should be a compilation and 
>clarification of ALL the rules presented without going into the depth that 
the 
>Ultimate series should be used.   This would mean adding the Spirit rules 
>(which I find have been very useful for a celestial character in my 
campaign), 
>cleaned up Venom rules and even the interesting Incomplete rules from the 
>List. 
 
   While I agree with you in terms of content (except that the Incomplete 
rules, in my opinion, should be merely consulted for principle rather than 
included as a separate structure), I should point out that what's being 
discussed is an entirely new edition of the rules, Doc, not yet another 
add-on book. 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 06:39:03 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 12:02 PM 12/27/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>>   I agree that it's mainly a campaign decision, but in any 
>event, -10 
>>seems like an obscenely big Limitation.  The biggest single 
>Limitation 
>>given in the book is -2.  And besides, what would you apply it to? 
>BODY? 
>>   However, it might do well to have characters with Normal 
>Characteristic 
>>Maxima pay for Weapon Familiarities even for weapons they pay points 
>for. 
> 
>The negative ten is supposed to represent a Disadvantage, not a 
>Limitation. 
 
   Well, the original poster stated it as a Limitation, and wrote it in the 
format of a Limitation, so... 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 06:52:29 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Armored Heroes (OIF vs. OIHID) 
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At 07:52 PM 12/27/97 -0500, Eric Burns wrote: 
>I have a quick question for you veterins out there: which way is 
>generally more effective for simulating armored heroes (like Iron 
>Man), an OIHID on all of the powers, or an OIF Focus?  That is to 
>say, which of these two limitations better represent the limitations 
>that Iron Man, et. al., face in the comic books? 
 
   Given a choice between those two, go with OIF. 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 97 15:19:08  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers 
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On Thu, 25 Dec 1997 23:10:21 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
 
>On Thursday, December 25, 1997 7:39 PM, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
> 
> 
>>>True. However, this higher AP ceiling is not the same as giving out 
>>>the same points over and over again. It is still the same number of 
>>>points. 
>> 
>>Ah, that is where I differ, and say that it is. If I have a 10 point 
>VPP, I 
>>can only stick powers with 10 APs into it. I could, for example, 
>stick 2 10 
>>AP powers, so long as each has a -1 Limitation. 
>> 
>>Now, if I Aid that VPP to 20 points, I can now stick 2 20 AP powers 
>in that 
>>pool using the same limitations. BOTH powers have seen an Active 
>Point jump, 
>>by the same amount, from a single application of an adjustment power. 
>This 
>>satisifes the definition of 'all powers of the same SFX' rather 
>nicely, IMHO. 
>> 
> 
>Try this. I have a 10 pt. VPP, and I put 2 5 pt powers into it, with 
>no Limitations at all. Now, I put 10 pts into the VPP. Both powers go 
>up by 5 pts, to a maximum of 10 _total_. 
> 
>So it does get a bit hairier than your example indicates. However, 
>after rereading the various 
>Adjustment power descriptions, I have decided to go with your 
>recommendation. +2 Advantage is required, but should be allowed. 
> 
>With a BIIIIIIIIIIG stopsign. 
 
Don't forget, chaps and chapesses, that to Adjust a VPP, you'll have to 
Adjust both the Pool AND the Control Cost. Further, Absorbtion isn't a 
defense, so the guy's still going to take damage (of course the Pool 
could have a default of Regeneration...) 
 
So, if I have a Cosmic Pool of 10 pts, I have a Control Cost of 15, and 
need to put 3 points to the Control Cost for every 2 points in the 
Pool.  
 
So, if I buy 2d6 Absorbtion with the +2 Advantage, and put on a decay 
time of 5 mins (+1/2), for a total of 35 pts), specifying that the 
points go to the VPP and absorbtion on a 5:2 basis. So, with every 7 
pts Absorbed (the average), the VPP goes up by a whopping TWO points. 
And for this, I've spent 60 pts total.  
 
I would submit that there are far better ways of spending 60 pts. 
 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
X-Sender: matthew@mail.mactyre.net (Unverified) 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 08:00:01 -0800 
From: Matthew Mactyre <mcm@mactyre.net> 
Subject: Re: Breakable Armor 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
At 10:56 PM 12/27/97 -0800, Robert A. West wrote: 
>This obviously refers to hitting the Focus as a Disarm: Inaccessible 
Foci  
>cannot be taken away by that method.  It has no relevance for attacks 
 
>that are intended to break a Focus; otherwise, Breakable and 
Accessible  
>would not be independent decisions, and it is reasonably clear from  
>the construction of the section that they are *intended* to be  
>independent decisions. 
> 
>In any event, the rule in the first paragraph of p.105 does not make  
>Inaccessible Foci immune to non-grab non-ranged attacks, so the 
question  
>remains. 
 
The way we have locally interpreted this rule is that an Inaccessible 
Focus may not be affected unless the "taker" uses a full turn to 
remove it.  I wouldn't allow anyone to directly attack a breakable 
Inaccessible Focus without first removing it. 
 
Matthew 
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Matthew Mactyre 
mcm@mactyre.net 
http://www.mactyre.net 
Join us on IRC Dalnet #herochat 
 
X-Sender: shelley@mail.mactyre.net 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 08:09:10 -0800 
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <scm@mactyre.net> 
Subject: Re: Play by Email 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 10:16 PM 12/27/97 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
>The nice thing about PBEMs is the chance for thoughtful roleplaying. In a 
>room full of other, waiting people, you can often get stuck for ideas or 
>good lines. Given some extra time and few drumming fingers :-), you come up 
>with better stuff! 
 
Yes, yes, yes!  PBEM is really the best forum for roleplaying since 
bluebooking -- as a player pointed out, it's online bluebooking.  
 
>Heh. Guess I took too many people, 'cause I started with twelve! It's been 
>going for about a month and a half now, with no real signs of slowing down 
>(other than the expected 'all players all over creation at Christmas' 
>syndrome). Mind you, six of the twelve are what I'd call 'low volume' 
>posters (1 response per turn), while the other six will talk your ear off if 
>you let them. 
> 
>The thing that keeps me sane is running a highly structured (2 turns a week, 
>no more than 2 posts a day per person), very low-combat environment - the 
>players are all crew of an research ship. If I was running a faster paced 
>game, I'd sure the heck want fewer players (like 4-6). 
 
John makes a very important point here -- make sure your players are very 
clear on guidelines!  The only real problems I've had with people flaking 
have been when they've either ignored or forgotten my criteria. Don't be 
afraid to use a trial period with new players, to see if they're up to it. 
In addition to responding directly to turns in terms of conversation, I 
required a confusingly-named "turn response" in the G3 game, in which 
players had near-complete autonomy in writing up combats and side 
adventures in their characters' lives.  They were great, but only the 
dedicated were up to them! =)  
 
In my games I allow people to post as much as they wish (usually with each 
other, but also with NPCs), and that can run up to ten responses per person 
per day when we get going.  (That's what I meant by an hour/day -- it's 
spread out through the day).  I ask one player to compile the turns for 
posting, for my sanity's sake, and unless I've got the time, weekend days 
are off limits.  Structure is really important; PBEM tends to be more 
free-form than most roleplaying.   
 
And good luck if you run the game -- it's definitely worth it!   
 
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre 
 www.mactyre.net 
 
 
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford) 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 17:18:15 GMT 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 26 Dec 1997 20:06:12 -0600, you wrote: 
 
 
>"Not changing the cost of Characteristics" ... which means not changing the 
>cost of STR, which means not touching one of only 3 1/2 things you can get 
>anywhere near a general consensus on around here as needing to happen (the 
>others being clarifying Linked, adding a stratified purchase system to Change 
>Environment, and fixing HA's Active Cost, which is connected to STR being so 
>cheap). 
 
No way is there even "half consensus" on changing STR costs. All the 
characteristics work just fine as currently figured, and I for one 
(and a whole lot of others) don't want to go through all the work to 
change point totals and figured CHA just because some vocal minorities 
want to change something so basic as STR costs. 
 
John Lansford 
 
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/intro.htm 
 
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford) 
Subject: Re: Weapons & Armor 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 17:28:50 GMT 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 28 Dec 1997 01:06:23 -0500, you wrote: 
 
> 
>On December 25, 1997, Filksinger wrote: 
> 
>> Incidentally, some antitank armor piercing rounds don't make holes 
>in 
>armor. Ever here of High Explosive, Plastic (HEP) rounds? They spread 
>plastic explosive over a small area of a target and detonate it. The 
>armor flexes in such a way that a piece of it is ripped from the 
>inner 
>side to go careening around the inside of the tank, killing the 
>occupants. < 
> 
>HEP rounds?  Too newfangled for me.  I'm still working my way through 
>my stepfather's copy of the U.S. War Department's Handbook on German 
>Military Forces, converting WWII weapon systems to the HERO rules.   
 
They've been around since the late 50's. 
 
Another example of AT warheads that don't make (much of) a hole are 
the HEAT rounds. These have been around since WWII, and the hole they 
make is around the size of a dime. Does terrible things inside the 
armor, though. 
 
John Lansford 
 
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/intro.htm 
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 28 Dec 97 09:45:00 -0800 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>  
 b > At 04:07 PM 12/26/97 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:  
 b > >>Add a new limit "Uses Heroic Combat rules (-10)", sort of like  
 b > >>"Normal Characteristic Maxima". Character with this limit (default  
 b > item.  
 b > >Why not include "Uses Hit Location tables (-10)" while you are at it?  
 b > >Every other superhero just bounces around, but this guy gets head and  
 b > leg  
 b > >injuries.  
 b >  
 b >    I agree that it's mainly a campaign decision, but in any event, -10  
 b > seems like an obscenely big Limitation.  The biggest single Limitation  
 b > given in the book is -2.  And besides, what would you apply it to?  
 b > BODY?  
  
I think he probably mean a Physical Limitation worth 10 pts.  
  
 b >    However, it might do well to have characters with Normal  
 b > Characteristic  
 b > Maxima pay for Weapon Familiarities even for weapons they pay points  
 b > for.  
 b > ---  
  
I'd like to see the old 'Limmitted Magic' Disadvantage from the old  
Fantasy Hero resurected as a more generic 'Limited Powers'  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 28 Dec 97 09:53:02 -0800 
Subject: Breakable Armor 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
To: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>  
 r > Subject: Breakable Armor  
 r >  
 r > Conclusion, the above character is hit by 3D6K rolling 11 BODY.  The  
 r > Character takes no BODY, since he has 15rDEF.  As for the foci:  
 r >  
 r > by 1) Both are hit by the attack.  
 r > by 2 and 3) The Armor has 10rDEF, and so takes 1 BODY.  
 r >  The Shield has 5rDEF, and so takes 6 BODY.  
 r > by 4) Both foci are destroyed.  
 r >  
 r > This cannot possibly be the book intention, yet this is the effect of  
 r > straightforward application of the rules on pp 105 and 106.  I don't  
 r > think that the above suffers from any "well-chosen example" problems.  
 r > hope that I am missing something; otherwise, I will have to come up  
 r > some house rules for breakable foci. 
 
 r > --  
  
You're not missing anything.  Foci have always worked this way...  
most games I've played in, it's been ignored (for armor), when  
not ignored, armors have an odd tendency to be defined as indestructable.  
:)  
  
I have yet to see a really good fix for it.  
  
My own take on Foci lets you buy some extra BOD for them, but  
like I said, it's not really good....  
  
  
Focus: 
 
  
<snip focus stuff not relevant to this discussion>...  
  
Breakable: -0 Limitation.  The default durability of a focus is  
     sufficient to withstand average attacks for the campaign in  
     question.  For standard powers, a DEF of Apts/5 is a good  
     guideline.  Breakable foci should not have a DEF greater  
     than the average damage caused by a pushed, high-end attack  
     for the game.  Foci that provide Special Powers should have  
     a minimum DEF set at about half the maximum DEF for the  
     campaign plus 1 DEF/5Apts.  Foci that grant a defense, can  
     use that defense, or their DEF as a Special Power -  
     whichever is greater.  Breakable foci typically lose one  
     randomly-determined function per hit that does BOD to it.  A  
     Breakable focus can get +2 BOD each time it's mass is  
     doubled (within reason).  This BOD must be eliminated before  
     functions begin to be lost.  
  
Tough: +1/4 Limitation.  Though this focus can be damaged, it  
     requires considerable effort.  The minimum defense for such  
     a focus should be able to bounce a high-end attack in the  
     campaign in question on an average roll.  Any Standard Power  
     that exceeds the normal Apts for the game would give the  
     focus a DEF of Apts/5.  A special power might have the  
     minimum DEF plus 1 DEF/5Apts.  A Tough focus that provides a  
     defense, gets the defense it gives the character plus 1  
     DEF/5Apts in the power.  The DEF of these foci also protects  
     against BOD Drains and can be hardened by sacrificing 1/5th  
     of the total DEF.  In addition to having a somewhat higher  
     DEF than normal Breakable foci, a Tough focus must take at  
     least 2 BOD to disable one function.  This amount can be  
     increased by +2 BOD per doubling of the foci's mass.  
  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 28 Dec 97 10:08:04 -0800 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
To: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>  
 > At 10:08 AM 12/27/97 -0800, Opal wrote:  
 > >Some of Steve Longs' work seems to miss the Hero mark, but he also  
 > >gets it right pretty often - and he can write. And, I presume he  
 > >has the time, while, Steve P, Bruce, & George McDonald, do not...  
 >  
 > Except that we're talking about The Big Enchilada here, the ISO  
 > standard for  
 > HERO system gameplay, if you will.  "pretty often" may not cut it. :/  
  
Who would you suggest....  
  
 > >There's no consensus on STR.  It is *NOT* overpriced.  It's cost is  
 > >balanced with Power Frameworks.   I'm glad it won't be changed, it  
 > >would, litterally, break the system.  
 >  
 > Um ... you get literally more than you pay for.  It is thus, by  
 > definition overpriced.  
  
Elemental Controls also get you literally more than you pay for, and  
though it's less obvious, so do other power frameworks.  Like I said  
STR is balanced, just not with individual powers, but with Frameworks.  
  
 > Arguments that "it's balanced so that bricks can compete  
 > energy projectors" are sophistry, because this isn't AD&D -- under the  
 > current system, I can have an energy-projecting brick, AND THERE'S NO  
 > REASON NOT TO! STR pays for itself -- why not jack it up as high as possibl  
  
Great accuse of of sophistry *and* playing D&D....  :)  
  
You can have an energy-projecting brick, but you'll find that it  
doesn't do so well (point efficency-wise) compared to either bricks  
or energy projectors.  STR pays for itself only if you want high  
figured characteristics.  Likewise, EC saves you points only if you  
want a set of related powers.  Multipower saves you lots of points  
while sacrificing relatively little utility if you want a lot of  
different attack powers, etc...  
  
The alternative is Fuzion, with it's three different point pools,  
and no-buying-figured-characteristics...  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 28 Dec 97 10:17:06 -0800 
Subject: Armored Heroes (OIF vs. 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 On 12-27-97 burns@usmcug.usm.maine.ed wrote to All...  
 > I have a quick question for you veterins out there: which way is  
 > generally more effective for simulating armored heroes (like Iron  
 > Man), an OIHID on all of the powers, or an OIF Focus?  That is to  
 > say, which of these two limitations better represent the limitations  
 > that Iron Man, et. al., face in the comic books?  
 >  
 > -Eric  
 > ---  
  
Personally, I prefer the Focus Limitation.  However, the way  
Iron Man is generally written, OIHID (or some simillar +1/4)  
limitation makes more sense (note that he does need to have  
the armor available to change), mainly because the villains  
never peel him out of the thing when the KO him.  (OTOH, by  
the same token, the villains never seem to peel masks off the  
heros either - so do none of them get Secret ID?).  
  
That shouldn't stop you from taking Focus with an armored  
PC, though, if that fits your concept better.  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 14:27:00 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Breakable, Inaccessable Foci 
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org" 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
        Wouldn't breakable inaccessable foci still be affected by Area of 
Effect or Explosive attacks? 
        After all, if Grenado sets off a truck load of C-2 around Captain 
Aegis enough to vaporize the truck, the captain, and a city block, wouldn't 
it be kind of silly if the armor -wasn't- vaporized... (unless it was made 
of nigh indestructable ubdatanium or someothersuch substance). 
	Also, how do you represent items (i.e. the Foci themselves) that carry 
certain Disadvantages (like a Hi-Tech suit that takes X2 damage from magnetism, 
or 'Unluck'--  I would assume you could apply the same modifer on the 
Disadvantage from the Limitation?) 
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:34:28 -0800 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
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Hash: SHA1 
 
At 06:39 AM 12/28/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   Well, the original poster stated it as a Limitation, and wrote it  
in the 
>format of a Limitation, so... 
> 
> 
I apologize for the confusion. It was supposed to be Disad, along the  
lines of NCM. 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 14:58:58 EST 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< The alternative is Fuzion, with it's three different point pools, and no- 
buying-figured-characteristics... >> 
 
  Actually you *can* buy up Derived Stats. It's mentioned in the rules, but 
requires GM approval and is generally not recommended. But hey, house rules 
and all... 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
X-Sender: champion@mailhost.cyberhighway.net 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:08:18 -0800 
From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net> 
Subject: Re: Play by Email 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:09 AM 12/28/97 -0800, Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote: 
>Don't be 
>afraid to use a trial period with new players, to see if they're up to it. 
 
 
Actually, for my "now snuffed" New Champions PBeM, I asked all interested 
players to "audition" for a spot in the game.  I presented the first turn 
(an intro to the game) and asked them to write "the story" of how their 
character becomes involved. 
 
The best submissions won a place in the game.  Other submissions were kept 
on hand in case one of the original line-up had to bow out. 
 
I think it worked very well, and made for a great 2nd turn.  Because I 
could see the caliber of writer/player, I had a good idea how well the game 
would go.  And it did!  I still have the turns online for people to read 
because they turned out so well! 
 
Good luck in your game! 
Jim 
 
 
X-Sender: matthew@mail.mactyre.net (Unverified) 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:08:24 -0800 
From: Matthew Mactyre <mcm@mactyre.net> 
Subject: Re: Breakable, Inaccessible Foci 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
At 02:27 PM 12/28/97 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>        Wouldn't breakable inaccessable foci still be affected by 
Area of 
>Effect or Explosive attacks? 
>        After all, if Grenado sets off a truck load of C-2 around 
Captain 
>Aegis enough to vaporize the truck, the captain, and a city block, 
wouldn't 
>it be kind of silly if the armor -wasn't- vaporized... (unless it was 
made 
>of nigh indestructable ubdatanium or someothersuch substance). 
 
I think the key word here is breakable.  If it is bought as breakable, 
then such an all inclusive attack would destroy the focus, 
inaccessible or not.  I can't think of a single time in my Champions 
history where this has come up.  Blowing up the valiant armored dude 
is not a very heroic way to die.   
 
The rules for removing or attacking an inaccessible focus are pretty 
clear and cover most of the circumstances I've seen come up in game 
play, at least locally.  The rules are a guideline for simulating a 
specific genre, use them to that end.  If something doesn't make 
sense, make a house rule to cover it.  Shelley and I have mostly the 
same house rules, with the exception of dive for cover.  I have a 
looser interpretation of when it can be used;  Shelley sticks much 
closer to the book.  :-) 
 
Matthew 
 
 
 
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Matthew Mactyre 
mcm@mactyre.net 
http://www.mactyre.net 
Join us on IRC Dalnet #herochat 
 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 14:18:28 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Punching and Stun and such... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
>   It's coments like these that really make me take stock in my participation 
> on this list, and make me wonder if it's really worth the time and energy I 
> spend making comments, reading comments, and so on. I thought this was a free 
> exchange of ideas? If you don't like my ideas, that's fine. You're entitled to 
> your opinion and to run your games any way you want. But by the same token, so 
> am I. Can't you find a way to convey your thoughts to me without resorting to 
> negative comments, insults and other derogatory connotation? 
 
 
	Oh, don't be discouraged. 
 
	Erol is forwarding his own, quite unique, opinion.  I only know 
one or two with a like opinion on gaming, horrid rules lawyers all. 
 
	But I'm quite convinced he'd be quite unhappy in a game you ran, 
and that you'd be quite unhappy having him for a player.  I'd feel quite 
unhappy having him for a player and he would definately not like my games. 
 
	He's a style on his own.  Let him have his say and reasize most of 
us are just silently finding his remarks quite rediculous. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 14:40:09 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Subject: KAs and the Stun Lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
	I've stayed on the side of keeping KAs as they are for some time, 
and I will continue as such.  I think the Stun Lotto effect is important 
for KAs to represent the over or under usefullness of the power.  I've 
also said it works best when using the hit location charts, as all powers 
then have the chance for the large or small stuns. 
 
	However, I like the non-Hit Location system.  For one, it's 
simpler.  For another, it allows EBs to be much more dependable and KAs 
much more variable, a status quo that I really like.  There's some nice 
difference between the two. 
 
	Yesterday, I thought up a new way to handle KA stun multiples.  It 
keeps the Stun Lotto, but lessens it.  It also makes Increased Stun Mult 
both more and less effective. 
 
	Roll Bod as normal.  Roll the Stun Multiple Die, then compare it 
to this chart: 
 
	1 -- 1* 
	2 -- 2* 
	3 -- 2* 
	4 -- 3* 
	5 -- 3* 
	6 -- 4* 
 
	Notice that the upper and lower ends are brought in, and that most 
results will now center to 2 and 3.  Notice that the average is unchanged. 
 
	For a +1 Stun Mult, it becomes: 
 
	1 -- 2* 
	2 -- 2* 
	3 -- 3* 
	4 -- 3* 
	5 -- 4* 
	6 -- 4* 
 
	Notice that we have lost the totally ineffecual blast.  Fitting, 
as increased Stun Mult is supposed to represent a weapon with real 
stopping power.  Notice, however, we still don't have the real upper end. 
Just an increased chance for the 4* multiplier. 
 
	At +2 Stun Mult, it becomes: 
 
	1 -- 2* 
	2 -- 3* 
	3 -- 3* 
	4 -- 4* 
	5 -- 4* 
	6 -- 5* 
 
	Now it is really quite effective.  Most attacks will have the 3* 
or 4*, and very little chace for a still effective 2*.  5* has appeared as 
well.  This is a +1 advantage, as well, making it maybe a little 
ineffecive for the cost. 
 
	For each additional +, just keep going up in numbers, always using 
two of each number. 
 
	One thing I'd propose is introducing "decreased Stun mult" as a 
limitation.  Say at -1/2. 
 
	At the  -1 level: 
 
	1 -- 1* 
	2 -- 1* 
	3 -- 2* 
	4 -- 2* 
	5 -- 3* 
	6 -- 3* 
 
	This really does have less real stopping power. 
 
	At the -2 level. 
 
	1 -- 1* 
	2 -- 1* 
	3 -- 1* 
	4 -- 2* 
	5 -- 2* 
	6 -- 3* 
 
	And so on, adding 1's to the bottom.  I'd perhaps change the cost 
to -1/4, or else a high BOD. low STUN KA gets too cheap.  The "decreased 
mult" is one of the possibly unbalancing parts of this power. 
 
	What does everyone think?  I think I'm switching immediately, 
myself.  I think this will give KAs a much better feel. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 14:28:29 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Breakable Armor 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
A Kirkland wrote: 
 
[BTW, it is not necessary to reply both to the poster and to the list.] 
 
> The Focus section is poorly written and self-contradictory. It states that 
> all defense providing foci are always hit, 
>         And that inaccesible foci can't be hit. 
> But this is HERO so this is old news. Since the very beginning of HERO, it 
> has been nessicary 
>         to look past what the writers say, to what they really mean 
>         ( and try not to think about the errors they make in the published 
> characters ). 
 
No argument, so far.  The problem comes with trying to discern the  
intention behind the rules as written, or at least to come up with a  
treatment that I can live with.  To date, I have been underenforcing the  
Breakable part of the Breakable Focus limitation by functionally doing  
what you recommend.  Since I have decided that this is unacceptable, it  
is not very helpful to suggest that I continue doing it. 
 
 
[big snip] 
>  
> Note -  "An Inaccessible Focus can't be hit with a Grab or a ranged 
>         attack while the character is in combat." 
>         not can't be disarmed or taken away, but can't be hit at all 
 
And the example in the second column of p.105 gives an example of Powered  
Armor that is defined as an Obvious INACCESSIBLE Focus.  Obviously, such  
a focus can be hit in some fashion.  As you have stated correctly, this  
cannot be done by *targeting* the Armor, so how is it done?  The answer  
is given overleaf: 
 
	Any Focus that provides defenses to the characater is  
	automatically it by any attack that hits the character. 
 
Note that the passage says "Any Breakable Focus," not "any Accessible  
Breakable Focus."  Since there are two rules in apparent conflict, we  
have to resolve the conflict.  There are two rational options: 
 
1. If we use standard english-language semantics, we note that the two  
sections address two very different situations, and therefore the two  
passages should be understood to apply to those situations.  In the  
Accessibility passage, the author clearly sets down a rule that an  
Inaccessible Focus cannot be targeted by Grabs or Ranged attacks.  By  
implication, an xIF *may* be targeted by HTH attacks intended to do  
damage.  Moreover, and explicitly, a defensive xIF is automatically hit  
by any attack that hits the character. 
 
	Problem: this turns xIF Armor into Tinfoil Armor, as you so 
	aptly named it.  This is far to severe a penalty, as both you 
	and I have noted. 
 
2. Your view: a Breakable xIF can never be damaged, unless it is found  
hanging on the wall.  I infer from your statements that this includes  
Area Effect Ranged Attacks and suchlike. 
 
	Problem: this makes Breakable xIFs functionally unbreakable, 
	which destroys the trade-off between Breakable and Unbreakable. 
	Since I have both technologically-based PCs and magically-based 
	PCs in my campaign, that balance is important. 
 
I dislike both options, and am searching for a third.  There must be some  
way, within the *intent* of the rules, to make Breakable Inaccessible  
Foci break often enough to matter, while not making them functionally  
fragile. 
 
 
>  
> Remember that GM's can change the rules for dramatic effect, or for a good 
> SFX. 
>         If you want an EMP to zap Defenders suit, it does. 
 
I feel *very* strongly that a GM must obey his own rules: to do otherwise  
is to start down the slippery slope of favoritism -- the GM rules one way  
for players that are good friends and another for players that are only  
acquaintences.  In this respect I am shaped by experiences during the  
early FRP in the New York area, where games were frequently used as means  
of punishing people for supporting the wrong WorldCon bid, etc. 
 
Whatever an NPC does in any campaign that I run is explained by a rule  
that could, in principle, be exploited by a PC, and vice versa.  This is  
a point of honor between me and my players.  Yes, there are those rare  
cases where the GM must intervene, but IMHO the GM should always feel  
uncomfortable about having to do so -- if the campaign and adventure were  
better constructed, the Deus ex Machina would not be required. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 14:35:49 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
> At 12:02 PM 12/27/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>> > 
> >The negative ten is supposed to represent a Disadvantage, not a 
> >Limitation. 
>  
>    Well, the original poster stated it as a Limitation, and wrote it in the 
> format of a Limitation, so... 
 
Bob, you know perfectly well that the terms "Limitation" and  
"Disadvantage" are often carelessly used for one another, especially  
since we have the helpful terms Physical Limitation and Psychological  
Limitation.  I agree that we all should be as careful as possible, but I  
think it clear from context that the writer intended a Disadvantage,  
since the analogy was made to NCM.  Perhaps he was even thinking in terms  
of 
 
	10	Phys Lim: Subject to Disabling and Hit Location 
		(default and no point value for Heroic Campaigns) 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Breakable, Inaccessible Foci 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 14:54:18 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sunday, December 28, 1997 11:16 AM, Matthew Mactyre wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>I think the key word here is breakable.  If it is bought as 
breakable, 
>then such an all inclusive attack would destroy the focus, 
>inaccessible or not.  I can't think of a single time in my Champions 
>history where this has come up.  Blowing up the valiant armored dude 
>is not a very heroic way to die. 
 
 
Sure it is. He was trying to save everyone from the bomb. He could be 
carrying it, for example, flying away from the city. Very heroic. 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Breakable, Inaccessable Foci 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 14:54:27 -0800 (PST) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
>         Wouldn't breakable inaccessable foci still be affected by Area of 
> Effect or Explosive attacks? 
 
	Probably, but I'd still call it a special effects call just to be 
safe. There may be some effects where the lim fits but said type of attack 
shouldn't logically hurt it. 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing 
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at 
some point. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 14:57:41 -0800 (PST) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
> << The alternative is Fuzion, with it's three different point pools, and no- 
> buying-figured-characteristics... >> 
>  
>   Actually you *can* buy up Derived Stats. It's mentioned in the rules, but 
> requires GM approval and is generally not recommended. But hey, house rules 
> and all... 
 
	Actually, it's not mentioned in the basic rules. Or rather the basic 
rules hint at it but don't say how to do it. 
	You have to buy a suppliment and find it in the erratta on the last 
few pages of that suppliment. 
	And in the first Fuzion game published, BGC, it specifically says 
you CANNOT buy figured characteristics. 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 16:46:11 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sunday, December 28, 1997 2:05 PM, Brian Wong wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> Actually, it's not mentioned in the basic rules. Or rather the basic 
>rules hint at it but don't say how to do it. 
> You have to buy a suppliment and find it in the erratta on the last 
>few pages of that suppliment. 
> And in the first Fuzion game published, BGC, it specifically says 
>you CANNOT buy figured characteristics. 
 
In the present version of the online .pdf file, it does tell you how 
to buy up Derived Characteristics. It costs exactly the same as to buy 
the Base Characteristic that would give you that Derived 
Characteristic. 
 
This is one of two things I don't prefer about Fuzion characteristics 
over HERO. The other is having different kinds of points, though, 
since they can be swapped, I never found this to be a major sticking 
point. 
 
Filksinger 
 
X-Sender: matthew@mail.mactyre.net (Unverified) 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 17:56:13 -0800 
From: Matthew Mactyre <mcm@mactyre.net> 
Subject: Re: Breakable, Inaccessible Foci 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
At 02:54 PM 12/28/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
 
>>then such an all inclusive attack would destroy the focus, 
>>inaccessible or not.  I can't think of a single time in my Champions 
>>history where this has come up.  Blowing up the valiant armored dude 
>>is not a very heroic way to die. 
> 
> 
>Sure it is. He was trying to save everyone from the bomb. He could be 
>carrying it, for example, flying away from the city. Very heroic. 
 
Okay, your point.  <grin> 
 
I must have missed the first part where this was explained.  My point 
is that I don't often blow up my player characters nor have I had my 
characters blown up in a fashion that would destroy their focuses.  I 
think the explanation in the book covers most of the circumstances 
I've seen in our games.  However, special circumstances can require 
special rulings. 
 
Matthew 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5 
 
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Matthew Mactyre 
mcm@mactyre.net 
http://www.mactyre.net 
Join us on IRC Dalnet #herochat 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 22:15:07 EST 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< The alternative is Fuzion, with it's three different point pools, and no- 
buying-figured-characteristics... >> 
 
>>  Actually you *can* buy up Derived Stats. It's mentioned in the rules, but 
requires GM approval and is generally not recommended. But hey, house rules 
and all... << 
 
<< As I recall, the Fuzion method of buying up figured stats amounts to 
something like this: >> 
 
  But the fact remains -- as was my point -- that you can buy up Derived 
Stats. There is nothing written in stone that says you cannot do what you want 
to do with Fuzion. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 22:15:10 EST 
Subject: Misquotes 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:18 PM 12/28/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>>   It's coments like these 
 
 
  No, no, NO. Someone is not using their quoting ability accurately and it is 
one day going to cause problems. Tim R. Gilberg did not state that. I stated 
that. Just for the record. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 22:15:13 EST 
Subject: One last note about e-courtesy 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< I don't think it's TOO much to ask to think twice about making potentially 
hurtful statements (and yes, I say that full knowing I've flubbed up more than 
once). >> 
 
  Join the club! :D We all make stupid errors in judgement on occasion. But we 
can strive to take responsibility for our outbursts and work to correct them, 
and to be more civil in future posts. 
 
  Just FYI, I didn't take his message to be insulting toward me. It could have 
been a little nicer about the other fellow, true. But in any case all I ask is 
for a little patience, a little understanding, and a little consideration when 
posting messages to or about me. 
 
  If you honestly feel a certain way then by all means I encourage you to post 
it, for good or for bad! But understand that there is a nice way to say the 
most negative of things. 
 
  Understand, too, that I will be much more inclined to take into 
consideration a kindly or carefully worded "flame" message than a hurtful, 
spiteful, thoroughly insulting one (I generally just dismiss such messages). 
It's the well-reasoned messages that I pay careful attention to, even when I 
disagree with the poster. 
 
  Telling me "Hey, this sucks and you better fix it or you're a pile of crap 
and you don't care about us. Your game sucks! I wouldn't feed it to my ex- 
wife, let alone line my birdcage with it! Straighten up 'cause you have a 
crappy attitude or I'll never buy your books and niether will any of my 10 
friends or their 100 friends," etc., will get you the big fat "zero" on the 
attention and consideration scale. 
 
  Sound exaggerated? You'd be surprised, then, to know that I get that kind of 
mail and posts directed at me every so often. Folks who lurk in the superhero 
newsgroup know *exactly* what I'm talking about. ;) 
 
  The bottom line is that I am here because I *do* care what our fans think. 
But I also realize that the Hero Mailing List is but a small percentage of 
that fanbase, as are the newsgroup readers, and the Hero fans on AOL, and so 
on. But collectively they make a fair percentage of Hero fans, so I do my best 
to have a presence in each of those places, to get a feel for what the fans 
want, are thinking, etc. 
 
  But the quickest way to get me *off* of this list is to simply flame me, 
insult me and otherwise show a deep lack of respect for me and my company. 
That will show me that *you* people don't give a rats tush about *my* time and 
energy spent in this forum. 
 
  And a quick note to all of you who *do* mind your manners.... THANK YOU!  As 
I implied earlier, your messages and feedback are appreciated. I won't promise 
to meet every single expectation and answer every single question out there, 
but I'll do my best to meet and answer a fair share of them. ;) 
 
  Good day. Good health. And good gaming! 
 
  Be a Hero! 
 
  [ Mark steps down from the podium and walk off stage. A silence falls over 
the assembled crowd. And then... ] 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 22:15:15 EST 
Subject: Derived stats 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Actually, it's not mentioned in the basic rules. Or rather the basic rules 
hint at it but don't say how to do it. >> 
 
  Funny. My copy says: 
 
Increasing or Decreasing Characteristics (Primary or Derived) 
Characteristics generally may not be increased or decreased directly. However, 
certain Talents or Powers that may or may not be available in your campaign 
setting may allow you to increase a Characteristic, either temporarily or 
permanently. Certain Complications may also decrease a Characteristic. Or, as 
last resort, you may attempt to convince your GM to allow you to use Option 
Points (pg. 117) in increase a Characteristic at a ratio of five OP for every 
point of Characteristic increase. 
 
<< 	And in the first Fuzion game published, BGC, it specifically says you 
CANNOT buy figured characteristics. >> 
 
  Understand that a few things have changed in Fuzion since the release of the 
first printing of BGC. The Fuzion rules in BGC are not the *exact* same rules 
as those used in C:NM, nor are the the same as the Fuzion rules you can 
download from the RTG site. However, with that said, you are correct.  ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
X-Sender: ghost@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 22:40:17 -0600 
From: Bryce Berggren <ghost@softfarm.com> 
Subject: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
(Bryce shakes off the fine coat of ashes that represent what's left of his 
clothing after the dynamite exploded, Looney-Toons style). 
 
OK, I stand corrected. The desirability of changing STR's cost does not 
have a consensus. I gained this perception over a year ago during a debate, 
when my argument that STR's excessive cheapness was "the loose thread in 
the sweater" (i.e. even though it could be logically proven that STR was 
a 'bargain', you couldn't change its cost without triggering an across-the-board 
change in costs of things like EB, HA, CON, BODY, etc. to make sure everything 
was finally balanced), very few to no people sided with me, and I was 
ventilated like Sonny Corleone. :-/ 
 
Now, having said that ... I /do/ have a problem with the statement that "STR 
is balanced, against Frameworks." Compare a character with 50 STR vs. his 
equivalent bought with a Framework of Powers, and it's a pretty sad sight for 
Framework Man. Similarly, saying STR is "just right" period is reality-impaired. 
 
On the subject of HA ... I've been doing some thinking on this. Most people 
think that keeping HA at 3 pts./die leads to ridiculously low active-point costs 
(agreed). However, jumping it to 5 pts./die without changing STR's cost results 
in penalizing players arbitrarily on concept (which, as we've seen in Fuzion's 
Figured Characteristic rules, Hero Games really doesn't have a problem with, 
but I digress). 
 
I can't help but notice that God, in his infinite wisdom, has placed a number 
larger than 3, but smaller than 5. This number also happens to match the cost 
of plain-vanilla extra DC as bought in Martial Arts. 
 
Thus, I'm curious: why can't I remember any suggestions to raise HA's cost to 
/4/ points per die, and leave it at that? 
 
  
 
H. G. 
 
He beats his fists against the posts 
and still insists he sees the ghosts 
 
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified) 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 22:45:17 -0600 
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:08 AM 12/28/97 -0800, Opal wrote: 
 
(Large Snip) 
 
>You can have an energy-projecting brick, but you'll find that it  
>doesn't do so well (point efficency-wise) compared to either bricks  
>or energy projectors.  
 
	True... 
 
> STR pays for itself only if you want high figured characteristics. 
 
	Untrue. Just figure out the figured characteristic level you want, 
	and buy the STR to get at least one of those were you want it... 
	Still I agree that "Fixing" this problem is more of a hassle than 
	it's worth... Instead fix the costs of HTH attack (HA) to be 5 pts 
	per DC like all the other attack powers.... 
 
>Likewise, EC saves you points only if you want a set of related powers.  
 
	Would any gm ALLOW a character whose powers WEREN'T related? I sure 
	wouldn't. The best balancing factor I've seen for EC's is the house 
	rule somebody came up with that half of any adjustment power hits the 
	individual power and the other half hits the EC Cost itself (Affecting 
	all of the other powers), this nicely simulates the supposed similarity 
	of these powers (IMHO). 
 
 
>Multipower saves you lots of points while sacrificing relatively little 
utility >if you want a lot of different attack powers, etc...  
  
	Which is probably what led to the following in most of our HERO games 
	around here. 
 
	All my attack powers in a MP with u slots. 
	All my other powers (that are allowed) in an EC. 
 
	I'm not saying that there is anything WRONG with this as long as the 
	GM is reasonably harsh with EC Definitions - I'm not real big on such 
	loose ones as "EC-Racial Abilities" when your supposedly the last 
	survivor of your race... 
  
 
+-------------------------+-------------------------------------+ 
|Earl A Kwallek           | You have the Right to Remain Silent | 
|"Student of Everything"  | Anything you say WILL be misquoted  | 
|Earl@TheWarren.Mil.Wi.Us | and used against you...             | 
+-------------------------+-------------------------------------+ 
 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 00:05:11 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: One last note about e-courtesy 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 28 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
>   [ Mark steps down from the podium and walk off stage. A silence falls over 
> the assembled crowd. And then... ] 
 
All hell breaks loose? 
 
PS: Nice editorial.  I think this list needs that sort of swift kick in 
the rear every now and then. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 02:25:56 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Re: Breakable, Inaccessable Foci 
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org" 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>                      I can't think of a single time in my Champions 
>>history where this has come up.  Blowing up the valiant armored dude 
>is not a very heroic way to die. 
 
	I never said Aegis was a hero...  of course, it would be sneaky 
of Grenado to blow him up, but hey, can't make the world a better place 
without vaporizing a few  square feet of concrete! 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Derived stats 
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 23:40:48 -0800 (PST) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
> << Actually, it's not mentioned in the basic rules. Or rather the basic rules 
> hint at it but don't say how to do it. >> 
>  
>   Funny. My copy says: 
>  
> Increasing or Decreasing Characteristics (Primary or Derived) 
> Characteristics generally may not be increased or decreased directly. However, 
> certain Talents or Powers that may or may not be available in your campaign 
> setting may allow you to increase a Characteristic, either temporarily or 
> permanently. Certain Complications may also decrease a Characteristic. Or, as 
> last resort, you may attempt to convince your GM to allow you to use Option 
> Points (pg. 117) in increase a Characteristic at a ratio of five OP for every 
> point of Characteristic increase. 
> 
 
 	Well, I don't know where your copy comes from, but that last 
sentence is clearly NOT in my copy of the PUBLISHED rulebook to 
Champions the New Millenium. I bought it the day it hit the stores here in 
San Francisco. 
 
	I'm refering to published stuff here, not web-page stuff. 
 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 03:51:58 -0500 
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net 
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood 
Subject: Re: Play by Email 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
Jim Dickinson wrote: 
 
> I think it worked very well, and made for a great 2nd turn.  Because I 
> could see the caliber of writer/player, I had a good idea how well the game 
> would go.  And it did!  I still have the turns online for people to read 
> because they turned out so well! 
> 
 
  I woould like to read them. Where do I find them? 
Kev. 
 
 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org> 
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> 
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:00:09 +0000 
Subject: Re: Breakable, Inaccessible Foci 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I've been reading this thread with interest, and have just re-read the  
rules for Breakable foci in the BBB in the light of the various arguments I've  
seen. I have to agree the rules need some tweaking. As I see it, the desired  
properties are: 
 
1) Breakable foci should be allowed to be either OAF or OIF, and there should  
   be a chance for either type to be broken in battle. 
 
2) Foci should not get destroyed in every battle, but minor damage should be 
   possible. Major battles might scrag most or all of the powers in a focus. 
 
3) Mega- ultimate damage should destroy a breakable foci. If Capt. Armor is  
   standing on the moon when the Nastyons blow it up, his armor should be 
   vaporized along with him, no matter how many powers it has. 
 
So, to my mind, the simplest way to achieve these affects with the fewest  
changes to the rules would be something along the lines of: 
 
- OAF's can be targetted separately by any attack at -2 OCV.  
 
- OIF's can NOT be targetted separately, but may be affected by any attack  
  which affects the character.  
 
- Defensive foci are ALWAYS hit by attacks which blow through that defense. 
  (an ED-only force field doesn't have to check for damage from a PD-only  
  attack.) 
 
- Breakable OIF's may or may not be protected by other defensive foci,  
  depending on special effects. I know that the BBB says 'never', but imagine  
  someones OAF pendant which is bought OIF precisely because it WILL be inside  
  the force field from her OIF ring when she's in battle... (mabye this should  
  be 'OAF Layered'. I dunno.) In any case, a focus protected by multiple  
  defenses gets the largest defense that would apply. 
 
- Every breakable foci has a DEF which is the greater of the largest power in  
  the foci's active points/5 or the DEF provided by the foci, if any. 
 
- Each non-defensive power in the foci has 0 DEF and a BODY equal to 1 + active  
  points/10. 
 
- Each defensive power in the foci has the defense it provides (in addition to  
  the overall DEF for the foci), plus a BODY equal to 1 + active points/10.  
  Note that this means that a (for example) 10 Active Point Mental Def bracelet  
  will have 2 Body with 2 overall DEF plus 10 Mental Def. It is DEF 2 vs  
  physical attacks, and DEF 12 vs mental ones. 
 
- When an attack hits a focus, subtract the DEF of the focus from the BODY of  
  the attack. If any BODY are left, they are applied in a manner dependent on  
  the type of attack: 
  - Killing and Armor Piercing attacks damage a single power. 
  - Normal attacks keep damaging different powers until all of the body of the  
    attack has been accounted for.   
  - Area affect attacks damage ALL powers in a focus. 
 
- Normally, which power is affected is rolled randomly, but maybe there should  
  be a rule of thumb like: 
	- Ablative powers are hit first.  
	- Non-defensive powers are hit next. 
	- Defensive powers are hit last. 
 
- When an attack hits a power it subtracts its applicable defenses (if any) and 
  takes the remaining body. How damage to a power is handled is pretty much up  
  to the GM and the special effects of the power, but I would be inclined to  
  reduce the effective active points of the power by 10 per body of  
  damage for variable-strength powers, and tacking on limitations like  
  Activation rolls (including Jamming or Burnout) for all-or-nothing powers. 
 
 
Using these rules, and going back to the original post on this topic, we have a  
character with: 
 
10/10 rPD/rED armor       (30 Active Points) bought as OIF Armor, 
 5/5  rPD/rED force field (10 Active Points) bought OAF Shield 
 
And someone hits the target for 3d6K rolling 11 BODY. 
 
- The player has 15 rDEF and takes no body. 
- The armor is effectively DEF 20, with 4 Body, and ignores the attack. 
- The shield is effectively DEF 10 with 2 Body and takes 1 body.  
 
The GM tells the player that a large chunk was taken out of the shield, and it  
now has an 11- activation roll (or alternately, is now 3/3 rather than 5/5). 
 
Another attack like that will destroy the shield, but will leave the armor  
untouched. 
 
On the other hand, had the character been hit by a 21 Body attack (eep!), then: 
 
- The player has 15 rDEF and takes 6 BODY (and is probably knocked out to  
  boot).  
- The armor takes 1 Body and is 1/4 damaged. The GM imposes a 14- activation  
  roll. 
- The shield takes 11 Body and is vaporized. 
 
 
Now, needing 21 BODY to damage the armor may seem kinda high, but remember that  
this is for a campaign where folks run around with 15 resistant defenses. I  
would guess that puts the typical attack at around the 15 DC range, and  
thus doing 15 BODY. 21 is a rather hot roll, or someone did a haymaker. 
(Your campaign may vary.) 
 
 
Now that I've written out all of the above, it occurs to me that that some  
folks would just rather have the character make a 'saving throw' for the focus  
when damage gets through. Give the focus a DEF by the standard rules, and have  
the focus make a saving throw of 9+(active/5) with -1 per body getting through.  
If it saves, no damage. If it fails, POOF! gone. 
 
--  
 Stirling Westrup  |  Use of the Internet by this poster 
 sti@cam.org       |  is not to be construed as a tacit 
                   |  endorsement of Western Technological 
                   |  Civilization or its appurtenances. 
 
From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:33:25 EST 
Subject: Re: Punching and Stun and such... 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 97-12-28 01:00:42 EST, GoldRushG@AOL.COM wrote:  
> << YES. It is a Bad Thing. >> 
>   
>    Perhaps I am not making myself clear, then.  
 
Perhaps I misunderstood you. I was refering to "the GM and players developing 
divergent views about what's 'really' happening in the game world" as being a 
Bad Thing. Not the theatrical style of gaming (except insofar as it may lead 
to these assumption clashes).  
 
> Nobody I have ever talked to  
> or 
>  gamed with (most of the Hero Games folks, Steve Perrin, Paul Lidberg, Steve 
>  Long, Chris Avellone, Greg Lloyd and Aaron Allston) have a problem or  
> dislike 
>  for the kind of "cinematic" approach I'm thinking of. Again, maybe I am 
>  sending the wrong message here. I'm talking about a style of Gming. I don't 
>  necessarily *advocate* GMing without revealing stats and numbers to the 
>  players, but there is certainly a time for revealing things and a time for 
>  keeping them "secret" for the sake of telling the story. 
 
><< I prefer to think of it as using words precisely. >> 
 
>  "Cinematic (adj.) -- Dealing with or related to movies, the cinema or 
>theater." 
 
In gaming, the term "cinematic" has a specialized jargon meaning. And this is 
a gaming discussion. To use the broader general meaning of "cinematic" in 
these discussions is like using the term "heroic" to describe a four-color 
Champions game: It breeds confusion.  
 
><< Remind me to never ever play a game with you as GM.>> 
 
>  It's coments like these that really make me take stock in my participation 
>on this list, and make me wonder if it's really worth the time and energy I 
>spend making comments, reading comments, and so on. I thought this was a free 
>exchange of ideas? If you don't like my ideas, that's fine. You're entitled 
to 
>your opinion and to run your games any way you want. But by the same token, 
>so 
>am I. Can't you find a way to convey your thoughts to me without resorting to 
>negative comments, insults and other derogatory connotation? 
 
You yourself have come across as beting terribly arrogant in your remarks, and 
I've responded by being (deliberately) snide in proportion. If your arrogance 
was unintentional then I apologize for my snideness.  
 
Erol K. Bayburt 
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow 
 
Reply-To: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
From: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
Subject: Re: Looking for Hero players & GMs 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:49:06 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<<  To that end, I have been considering starting page on our web sitte for 
Hero 
gamers to find other Hero gamers. A "frind Hero GMs/players classified" 
listing of sorts. What do you folks think of that idea? Webmasters, would 
you 
create a link to such a page? Heck, we could also post listings of Hero 
games 
scheduled for various cons!>> 
 
I most certainly put one on my home page, as well as on the four pbem pages 
that I maintain. 
 
 
Lisa 
 
Lisa Hartjes 
beren@unforgettable.com 
Home:  http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/daniken/79 
"What do you mean, don't press the red button......." 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 06:21:06 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero System 5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:35 PM 12/28/97 -0800, Robert A. West wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>  
>> At 12:02 PM 12/27/97 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>>> > 
>> >The negative ten is supposed to represent a Disadvantage, not a 
>> >Limitation. 
>>  
>>    Well, the original poster stated it as a Limitation, and wrote it in the 
>> format of a Limitation, so... 
> 
>Bob, you know perfectly well that the terms "Limitation" and  
>"Disadvantage" are often carelessly used for one another, especially  
>since we have the helpful terms Physical Limitation and Psychological  
>Limitation.  I agree that we all should be as careful as possible, but I  
>think it clear from context that the writer intended a Disadvantage,  
>since the analogy was made to NCM.  Perhaps he was even thinking in terms  
>of 
> 
> 10 Phys Lim: Subject to Disabling and Hit Location 
>  (default and no point value for Heroic Campaigns) 
 
   Actually, no, I didn't know that "perfectly well."  I've noticed it 
happen on occasion, but generally the context given (the way that the 
proposed rule is written) makes it clear what the writer means.  In this 
case, though, the writer not only said Limitation, but wrote it like a 
Power Limitation.  It was only after several people (most of them 
privately) pointed out that the original poster meant it as a Physical 
Limitation, then the 10 made more sense. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: wabbit@globaldialog.com (Unverified) 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:28:09 -0600 
From: Earl Kwallek <earl@thewarren.mil.wi.us> 
Subject: Re: KAs and the Stun Lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:40 PM 12/28/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
	(Snip) 
> 
>	One thing I'd propose is introducing "decreased Stun mult" as a 
>limitation.  Say at -1/2. 
> 
>	At the  -1 level: 
>	1 -- 1* 
>	2 -- 1* 
>	3 -- 2* 
>	4 -- 2* 
>	5 -- 3* 
>	6 -- 3* 
> 
>	This really does have less real stopping power. 
> 
>	At the -2 level. 
> 
>	1 -- 1* 
>	2 -- 1* 
>	3 -- 1* 
>	4 -- 2* 
>	5 -- 2* 
>	6 -- 3* 
> 
>	And so on, adding 1's to the bottom.  I'd perhaps change the cost 
>to -1/4, or else a high BOD. low STUN KA gets too cheap.  The "decreased 
>mult" is one of the possibly unbalancing parts of this power. 
> 
>	What does everyone think?  I think I'm switching immediately, 
>myself.  I think this will give KAs a much better feel. 
> 
 
	I seem to remember a "x1 STUN Multiple" limitation. I think it was a 
	-1/2 limit (might have been -1) using your system an automatic x1 
	would ve worth -2 1/2 (-1 1/4 if use the -1/4 per level instead of 
	-1/2)... 
	Hmmm, If the original x1 STUN Mult was indeed -1 then your idea for 
	Reduced STUN mult is certainly good - for what it's worth I thought 
	the rest of the idea (increased STUN Mult & reducing the STUN Lotto) 
	were great! 
 
+-------------------------+-------------------------------------+ 
|Earl A Kwallek           | You have the Right to Remain Silent | 
|"Student of Everything"  | Anything you say WILL be misquoted  | 
|Earl@TheWarren.Mil.Wi.Us | and used against you...             | 
+-------------------------+-------------------------------------+ 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 06:32:14 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Armored Heroes 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:17 AM 12/28/97 -0800, Opal wrote: 
> On 12-27-97 burns@usmcug.usm.maine.ed wrote to All...  
> > I have a quick question for you veterins out there: which way is  
> > generally more effective for simulating armored heroes (like Iron  
> > Man), an OIHID on all of the powers, or an OIF Focus?  That is to  
> > say, which of these two limitations better represent the limitations  
> > that Iron Man, et. al., face in the comic books?  
>  
>Personally, I prefer the Focus Limitation.  However, the way  
>Iron Man is generally written, OIHID (or some simillar +1/4)  
>limitation makes more sense (note that he does need to have  
>the armor available to change), mainly because the villains  
>never peel him out of the thing when the KO him.  (OTOH, by  
>the same token, the villains never seem to peel masks off the  
>heros either - so do none of them get Secret ID?).  
>  
>That shouldn't stop you from taking Focus with an armored  
>PC, though, if that fits your concept better.  
 
   A rule that I use (and didn't include in my previous post because I 
wanted to include the URL for the rule and didn't have time to locate it) 
is found on the website for Sean Fannon's Champions campaign.  The URL is 
below: 
 
http://www.io.com/~wileyc/champ/cyber.html 
 
   I have this rule (with a couple of necessary modifications) in my 
manuscript for TUSV, though whether it passes muster and makes it to 
publication remains to be seen. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 06:44:48 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: KAs and the Stun Lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:40 PM 12/28/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> Yesterday, I thought up a new way to handle KA stun multiples.  It 
>keeps the Stun Lotto, but lessens it.  It also makes Increased Stun Mult 
>both more and less effective. 
> 
> Roll Bod as normal.  Roll the Stun Multiple Die, then compare it 
>to this chart: 
> 
> 1 -- 1* 
> 2 -- 2* 
> 3 -- 2* 
> 4 -- 3* 
> 5 -- 3* 
> 6 -- 4* 
> 
> Notice that the upper and lower ends are brought in, and that most 
>results will now center to 2 and 3.  Notice that the average is unchanged. 
 
   [Rest of it snipped for space] 
   This looks like a good system, Tim.  However, the average at the base 
level *does* change.  It goes down slightly, from 2.667 to 2.5.  (Not that 
I consider this an altogether bad thing, mind you, given the level of extra 
ability that KAs have.) 
   This, I think, is a good way of handling Stun Multipliers that would be 
a good alternate method for Hero5. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Subject: Re: So What Now? 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 11:16:27 -0500 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 12/24/97 9:11 AM, Bruce Crow (BCROW@cnmc.org) Said: 
 
> 
>I agree. The nearest game store I found with Hero stuff (in Rockville abt 
>15 miles away) has it in its "obscure" games section with about four 
>inches of shelf space worth of material. I though I had hit a gold mine 
>when I found it. And Rockville and Silver Spring are not small towns. 
>Which reminds me I've wanted to ask Michael Surbrook where he gets 
>his Hero Stuff. And don't tell me Baltimore. I'd hate to have to go that far. 
 
Sounds like you are describing Dream Wizards.  I live in Damascus (at the  
other end of Montgomery County) and found the Game Place  
(http://www.gameplace.com/) in Gaithersburg to be very good, lots of  
games, lots of gamers. In Wheaton there is a comicbook store called  
Barbarian Books which carries a nice selection of gaming stuff, both new  
and old (I bought several 3rd edition supplements there last year). Sorry  
I don't have any Phone Numbers for you, but they should all be listed in  
the yellow pages. 
 
                                         |  David A. Fair 
        Think Different                  |  SDS International 
                                         |  dfair@sdslink.com 
 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:53:09 -0200 (EDT) 
From: Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria <gevaerd@laranjeiras.lci.ufrj.br> 
Subject: Lost breakable armor mail 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
   Someone send some rules he made for breakable focus, but I deleted by 
accident. Could someone send it to me please ?  
   Or if there's a site with the log of this mailing list you can send me 
the address and I can search for it. 
 
                Thanks. 
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 09:16:49 -0800 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: New Advantage:Engulfing 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
This idea grew out of the thread on foci. An Engulfing (+1/2) attack 
ignores hit location, instead 'hitting' the entire body, or at least all of 
the body facing the attacker. Armor is averaged. Any external foci, or foci 
under armor if the armor is penetrated, are considered to be 'hit' by the 
attack. (There are already rules for this in terms of falling damage, etc, 
IIRC, but no advantage to specifically model this type of attack. Or am I 
forgetting something? Books are not handy...) 
 
Example:Moonstone gains his powers from the mystic gem embedded in his 
chest. This is bought as an OIF. Heat Miser shoots an Engulfing Energy 
Blast at him. The blast surrounds Moonstone's body, not coincidentally 
hitting the gem, which takes appropriate damage. 
 
If this idea is used, I'd recommend permitting the purchase of armor or 
force field with 'Only affects focus' (-1). 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: New Advantage:Engulfing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 29 Dec 1997 12:37:37 -0500 
Lines: 26 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> writes: 
 
L> This idea grew out of the thread on foci. An Engulfing (+1/2) attack 
L> ignores hit location, instead 'hitting' the entire body, or at least all of 
L> the body facing the attacker. [...] 
 
This seems drastically overpriced for what is basically a weaker version of 
AoE: Hex. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 29 Dec 1997 12:46:44 -0500 
Lines: 27 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BB" == Bryce Berggren <ghost@softfarm.com> writes: 
 
BB> Thus, I'm curious: why can't I remember any suggestions to raise HA's 
BB> cost to /4/ points per die, and leave it at that? 
 
Because of the premise that a Damage Class has a basic cost of 5 points. 
That and the utility of HA fitting perfectly into the RKA/KA/EB square.  If 
you balance HA against those three powers you get a base cost of 5 points 
per DC for a power to which one adds Strength, similar to HKA. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 09:54:33 -0800 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: New Advantage:Engulfing 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:37 PM 12/29/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> writes: 
> 
>L> This idea grew out of the thread on foci. An Engulfing (+1/2) attack 
>L> ignores hit location, instead 'hitting' the entire body, or at least 
all of 
>L> the body facing the attacker. [...] 
> 
>This seems drastically overpriced for what is basically a weaker version of 
>AoE: Hex. 
 
<shrug> So drop to 1/4. Or even consider it a 'special effect', for no 
value, as it has a good mix of advantages and disadvantages. 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:26:29 EST 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Derived stats 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< I'm refering to published stuff here, not web-page stuff.>> 
 
  Like I said, the Fuzion rules were changed slightly (or, the text was) after 
the BGC book was printed. Some refinements were made. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:26:36 EST 
Subject: Re: Punching and Stun and such... 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< In gaming, the term "cinematic" has a specialized jargon meaning. And this 
is 
a gaming discussion. To use the broader general meaning of "cinematic" in 
these discussions is like using the term "heroic" to describe a four-color 
Champions game: It breeds confusion. >> 
 
  Then my point was made. Thank you. So much for using words "precisely." 
 
<< You yourself have come across as beting terribly arrogant in your remarks, 
and 
I've responded by being (deliberately) snide in proportion. If your arrogance 
was unintentional then I apologize for my snideness. >> 
 
  So if someone perceived something that you said as being confrontational and 
said "Screw you!," that would be okay?? I disagree wholeheartedly. 
 
  If you or anyone else on this list has perceived me as arrogant then that is 
a shame. If anyone has a question, they should ask. But sometimes running 
along on assumptions can lead to disastrous results. 
 
  I never intended to come across as arrogant, but apparently I have. So what 
am I to do? Should I sugar coar every one of my posts and walk on proverbial 
eggshells when typing my messages and replies for this list? 
 
  I'm beginning to see this list as as much of a nuissance as a benefit. 
People need to have slightly thicker skins, IMO, and stop blasting me for such 
trivial matters as "using AOL-style quoting" (about which I've received 2 
complaints via private e-mail), being an "arrogant, idiot-AOL user" and such. 
Grow up. 
 
  I was participating in discussions on this list. If you don't like it, then 
don't invite me. In fact, as I responded to you in a private message... maybe 
it's time for me to take a break from this list. I have a lot better things to 
do than be flamed for trivial, insignificant matters. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
X-Sender: gold_phoenix@pop.cyberun.net 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:44:49 -0400 
From: "E. David Miller" <gold_phoenix@cyberun.net> 
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting (AGAIN) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
	I have played shapeshifting characters in many different campaigns, 
including some of my own, and a few PBEMs.  There are two "street-legal" 
ways to deal with such characters that I have seen work very well. 
Everyone has mentioned the almighty linked VPP already, so I won't go into 
horrific detail on that method. Suffice it to say that I got approval to 
buy down characteristics that lowered in other forms, within the VPP, and 
use those points for other powers in the form. 
	However, there is another way to do what it is you are seeking to 
do, for the most part.  Buy the shapeshifting, and a linked Multipower. 
Each slot in the multipower has all the elements of a single form, 
including characteristic increases and decreases, senses, PER changes, 
skills, attacks, size and density, the works.  Each is an ultra slot.  A 
250 point character will most likely be able to buy most of the commonly 
desired animals from the bestiary within their caps.  However they will 
only be able to buy a select few animals to start with.  In short order, 
however, they can apply their XP to expanding their repertoire.  This has 
several advantages, as I have seen it work.  As each slot has to be done 
out completely, costed, and bought, it really represents well the needed 
practice and experience to take on another biological form.  And, done this 
way there is less of a desire to skim off some of the powers and abilities 
of the animal form to make it fit into a VPP, and you are thusly less 
likely to get stuck with the quandry of "well, the animal ought to be able 
to do this, but I forgot to add in those elements because I needed other 
abilities, so now I have to shift again to get these powers."  You get all 
the abilities of the form every time you take the form.  I will admit that 
in high-end campaigns, or the "build-to-concept" games, it can be more 
efficient to go the VPP route, but you are still going to have to go 
through each and every form you intend to know, and write out the powers 
and stats and such.  I would suggest that if you intend to do a VPP, that 
you get approval to buy down stats within the VPP, and you require 
appropriate skills and skill rolls; KS for animals, even SS - Zoology for 
the detailed biological info on the bestie, and a power skill for mentally 
shifting all of your own biological systems into the forms and functions of 
this new form. 
 
 
David Miller 
 
___________________________________________________________________________ 
| gold_phoenix@->   |There are 3 temporal dimensions, just as there are 3 | 
| ->cyberun.net     |spatial; T, the passage of time; Tau, the changes in | 
|-------------------|possible outcomes/decisions; Teh, the alternate bases| 
| E. David Miller   |of reality.  Thus, all that ever has been dreamed,   | 
|-------------------|IS, somewhen.  And somewhen, we are all simply a     | 
|Faith, and Dreams. |dream.  Or, by perspective, a nightmare.             | 
|___________________|_____________________________________________________| 
 
 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org> 
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> 
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:48:15 +0000 
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting (AGAIN) 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
So Sayeth E. David Miller <gold_phoenix@cyberun.net&> 
 
>  I have played shapeshifting characters in many different campaigns, 
> including some of my own, and a few PBEMs.  There are two "street-legal" 
> ways to deal with such characters that I have seen work very well. 
> Everyone has mentioned the almighty linked VPP already, so I won't go into 
> horrific detail on that method. Suffice it to say that I got approval to buy 
> down characteristics that lowered in other forms, within the VPP, and use 
> those points for other powers in the form. 
>  However, there is another way to do what it is you are seeking to 
> do, for the most part.  Buy the shapeshifting, and a linked Multipower. 
 
This brings up a problem with shapeshifting that I came across recently. I'm  
converting the old AD&D treasure list over to Hero System, for use in a Fantasy  
Hero campaign. One of the hardest items to deal with yet has been a potion of  
polymorph. You're not supposed to put the pool cost of a VPP into a focus, but  
how then do you build the potion? Without ANY sort of limitation on the Pool,  
the fact that it is independant, or one use ever, doesn't make it cheaper. Its  
bad enough an alchemist has to pay 5 character points to build the average  
potion (this needs fixing bad IMHO), but 60 or 70??? No way! 
 
--  
 Stirling Westrup  |  Use of the Internet by this poster 
 sti@cam.org       |  is not to be construed as a tacit 
                   |  endorsement of Western Technological 
                   |  Civilization or its appurtenances. 
 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 17:04:28 -0200 (EDT) 
From: Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria <gevaerd@laranjeiras.lci.ufrj.br> 
Subject: Using skills... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
   In the skill section is said that if a character fails a skill roll, he 
will get nothing from any futher skill roll unless he gets some kind of 
bonus. 
   Let me see if I understood this right... so if a wounded person 
receives a paramedic attempt, but it fails. So the person who attempted 
the paramedic will never succeed anymore unless he gets a bonus, by 
spending extra time for example ? 
 
                        
 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:10:00 -0500 
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net 
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood 
Subject: Re: Punching and Stun and such... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
GoldRushG wrote: 
 
>   I was participating in discussions on this list. If you don't like it, then 
> don't invite me. In fact, as I responded to you in a private message... maybe 
> it's time for me to take a break from this list. I have a lot better things to 
> do than be flamed for trivial, insignificant matters. 
> 
>   Mark @ GRG 
 
  I for one, would miss you greatly if you left. I hope it doesn't come to that. I 
can't help but notice that the maturity level of some of the members of this list 
is rather low. I would like to reiterate your point of GROW UP. This is a forum 
for the exchanging of ideas. It belittles us all when certain participants get 
nasty in their flaming of other participants. Perhaps this list should adopt an 
AOL style TOS and violators be removed from the list, rather than their victims 
being forced to leave to avoid being harassed. 
 
Kev 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: New Advantage:Engulfing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 29 Dec 1997 14:11:52 -0500 
Lines: 28 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> writes: 
 
>> This seems drastically overpriced for what is basically a weaker version 
>> of AoE: Hex. 
 
L> <shrug> So drop to 1/4. Or even consider it a 'special effect', for no 
L> value, as it has a good mix of advantages and disadvantages. 
 
It still works much like a weaker AoE: Hex... weaker in that it is targeted 
vs. the target's DCV rather than the hex he is in. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:04:35 -0600 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net 
Organization: None 
Subject: Re: Using skills... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria wrote: 
>  
>    In the skill section is said that if a character fails a skill roll, he will get nothing from any futher skill roll unless he gets some kind of bonus. 
>    Let me see if I understood this right... so if a wounded person 
> receives a paramedic attempt, but it fails. So the person who attempted the paramedic will never succeed anymore unless he gets a bonus, by spending extra time for example ? 
>  
>  
 
	If I understand it right spending extra time would give you a bonus so 
yes he would get to roll again. However, I personally would enforce a 
penalty (small) because he had already tried once and remember the story 
is the thing so if the player needs help...... 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:27:05 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:45 PM 12/28/97 -0600, Earl Kwallek wrote: 
>> STR pays for itself only if you want high figured characteristics. 
> 
> Untrue. Just figure out the figured characteristic level you want, 
> and buy the STR to get at least one of those were you want it... 
> Still I agree that "Fixing" this problem is more of a hassle than 
> it's worth... Instead fix the costs of HTH attack (HA) to be 5 pts 
> per DC like all the other attack powers.... 
 
1) More to the point, the usefulness of figured CHAR doesn't magically 
disappear just because "I didn't want that".  A point is a point is a point 
(or at least, it should be if points are supposed to mean anything).  It's 
more accurate to say that "STR pays for itself, it just does so in the 
currency of high figured CHAR". 
 
2) HA simply doesn't belong with "all the other attack powers".  HA's 
purpose is not to make a normal damage attack, but to increase the normal 
damage attack you already HAVE (i.e. your Strike maneuvers).  Adjusting the 
cost of HA doesn't fix a damn thing, except to further dramatize the 
cost-efficiency of STR (instead of 10 pts. being worth 19 Active Points, 
it's now worth 23). 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:27:07 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:46 PM 12/29/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "BB" == Bryce Berggren <ghost@softfarm.com> writes: 
> 
>BB> Thus, I'm curious: why can't I remember any suggestions to raise HA's 
>BB> cost to /4/ points per die, and leave it at that? 
> 
>Because of the premise that a Damage Class has a basic cost of 5 points. 
>That and the utility of HA fitting perfectly into the RKA/KA/EB square.  If 
>you balance HA against those three powers you get a base cost of 5 points 
>per DC for a power to which one adds Strength, similar to HKA. 
 
The problem being, one doesn't add STR to HA, one adds HA to STR, and this 
is the way it needs to be (because STR is the basis of non-ranged normal 
damage combat).  STR is the fourth corner of the square, not HA (or, at the 
least, whatever "fourth corner" exists is hardcoded within STR). 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Using skills... 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 29 Dec 1997 15:37:28 -0500 
Lines: 26 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "bf" == bobby farris <redbf@ldd.net> writes: 
 
bf> However, I personally would enforce a penalty (small) because he had 
bf> already tried once and remember the story is the thing so if the player 
bf> needs help...... 
 
... he slows down, tries a different approach, etc.  Why penalize the 
character for doing things right? 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 20:41:10 +0000 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
Subject: Re: Supplement help [SF Info] 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Brian Wong wrote: 
>  
>         Well, it's [Hero] died down a bit. But it's still a popular item here. 
> Niether Hero nor Fuzion sells in the stores here. Nor does any Super Hero 
> RPG. 
 
You can find used copies of most Hero books at: 
Gamescape (At least the one in Palo Alto) 
Gator Games in San Mateo 
 
I know Game Gallery in the Valley Fair Mall in San Jose has some 
unused copies of Hero books. 
 
DunDraCon in February should have some Hero books 
in the Dealer room and in the Flea Market. 
 
Whenever the next Slug-a-Thon happens should have at 
least two Hero games being run. (As long as a schedule conflict doesn't happen 
again...) 
That's where I picked up an Autoduel Champions for $5. 
 
I would say hero isn't dying in the Bay Area, just hiding. 
 
-Mark Lemming 
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:08:45 -0800 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: Using skills... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:37 PM 12/29/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "bf" == bobby farris <redbf@ldd.net> writes: 
> 
>bf> However, I personally would enforce a penalty (small) because he had 
>bf> already tried once and remember the story is the thing so if the player 
>bf> needs help...... 
> 
>... he slows down, tries a different approach, etc.  Why penalize the 
>character for doing things right? 
 
Because you'll get people who buy a minimal level in a skill and keep 
trying 'until they get it right'. It's a game balance issue. I tend to 
allow re-rolls if the player really shouldn't have failed a roll, or if a 
failure would seriously derail the story to no purpose. 
 
Example from another game:In a Star Wars game, the starport was hidden deep 
in a volcano and accessible only through a long cavern. The pilot had 
something like 5d+2 in piloting, so I said, "Make a Difficulty 12 roll to 
get through". Well, she failed. Rather than having the ship seriously 
damaged, I just said "Well, you managed to scrape the bottom turret on the 
wall and probably damaged the gun...roll again." She did, and got out. 
 
Now, if someone had tried that with 3D piloting, I'd have probably made the 
damage far more severe, and not allowed a reroll. 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:11:02 EST 
Subject: Re: Supplement help [SF Info] 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< DunDraCon in February should have some Hero books in the Dealer room and in 
the Flea Market. >> 
 
  Very true, Mark. We're working our tails off to make sure that San Angelo is 
there for DunDraCon! We'll also have most of the 4th Ed stuff there, too, in 
case there's anything you haven't picked up yet. ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG  
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:11:24 EST 
Subject: Re: Punching and Stun and such... 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< I for one, would miss you greatly if you left. I hope it doesn't come to 
that.>> 
 
  I feel the same way. And thank you for your voice of support and reason. 
 
  I would not propose to force my feelings about how to handle this list upon 
the keeper, but I can speak for myself regarding the treatment by certain 
subscribers. I would much rather *not* leave this list as I've found it (for 
the most part) to be very enlightening, and I like being in touch with our 
customer base. 
 
  Perhaps we can move on from this point and hope that I will remain a 
welcomed part of it. I think, for the betterment of the list (and myself), 
however, that I will lay low and post less frequently for a while. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:11:25 EST 
Subject: Re: Using skills... 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< Let me see if I understood this right... so if a wounded person receives a 
paramedic attempt, but it fails. So the person who attempted the paramedic 
will never succeed anymore unless he gets a bonus, by spending extra time for 
example ?>> 
 
  That's the way I understand it. Bonuses can come from a variety of 
circumstances, however. How about getting someone else to come over and "help" 
you? That can be used as a Complimentary Skill Roll, hence a new bonus. ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 15:33:24 -0600 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net 
Organization: None 
Subject: Re: Using skills... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
"bf" == bobby farris <redbf@ldd.net> writes: 
>  
> bf> However, I personally would enforce a penalty (small) because he had already tried once and remember the story is the thing so if the player needs help...... 
 
> Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
> ... he slows down, tries a different approach, etc.  Why penalize the 
> character for doing things right? 
>  
	Like I said it would depend on the story, but I feel he should get a 
small penalty or players will just continue to roll for the same thing 
over and over and over.... untill they succeed. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Using skills... 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 29 Dec 1997 16:43:52 -0500 
Lines: 37 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> writes: 
 
>> ... he slows down, tries a different approach, etc.  Why penalize the 
>> character for doing things right? 
 
L> Because you'll get people who buy a minimal level in a skill and keep 
L> trying 'until they get it right'. 
 
Just like real life.  Just remember that each time he tries he must acquire 
an *additional* bonus to the roll, so the second attempt takes an extra 
Phase, the third a Turn, the fourth a minute, the fifth five minutes, the 
sixth an hour, etc.  When you have lots of time you can afford to take the 
time to do it right with a minimal level in a skill.  But when time is 
critical, you do not have that time.  No need to introduce any artificial 
game balance mechanisms when the story will drive it. 
 
In other words, it is great that you have Demolitions on an 8-... that is 
not going to be much use if the bomb is going to go off in 10 seconds, 
unless you get really lucky the first time around. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:51:30 -0800 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: Supplement help [SF Info] 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 04:11 PM 12/29/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< DunDraCon in February should have some Hero books in the Dealer room 
and in 
>the Flea Market. >> 
> 
Dundracon==SF area gaming con? More info? 
 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 17:19:34 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: New Advantage:Engulfing 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>This idea grew out of the thread on foci. An Engulfing (+1/2) attack 
>ignores hit location, instead 'hitting' the entire body, or at least all of 
>the body facing the attacker. Armor is averaged. Any external foci, or foci 
>under armor if the armor is penetrated, are considered to be 'hit' by the 
>attack. (There are already rules for this in terms of falling damage, etc, 
>IIRC, but no advantage to specifically model this type of attack. Or am I 
>forgetting something? Books are not handy...) 
 
I'd think that an 'engulfing' attack should target the _minimum_ armored 
area on a target. After all, it's hitting all parts, right? So an Engulfing 
Attack would: 
 
A.) Ignore hit locations (is a 'no location' attack) 
B.) Uses the smallest armor value on the target. If the target has armor w/ 
an activation value to simulate partial coverage, it fails. 
 
In superheroic this is probably +1/2. In herioc it's at least +1. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
From: "Roger A. Wesson, Jr." <uraeus@bunt.com> 
Subject: Stats for small animals, pests, etc 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:48:10 +0100 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
  I am designing a NPC tenatively named Pest Control.  I want him to be 
able to 'call' various pests which will follow his commands.  I will be using 
Summon with a linked Mind Control for this, but I need to know how many 
points I'll need to put into Summon. 
  I envision PC being able to call forth swarms (1"-3" radius) of insects, packs of rats, bats, and maybe a handful of larger pests (feral dogs,etc).  Is there 
any published book with stats for such things?  Or can people make suggestions for what these animals' stats and cost would be. 
 
  And thanks to all of you who responded to my earlier request for help with 
the Time Stop and Gravity Trap powers. 
 
  -Roger 
 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:49:17 -0800 
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger) 
Subject: Future Ultimate books? 
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
     So now that we know Hero Games hasn't given up on us Hero 
     players (he says, tongue firmly in cheek), what are the plans for  
     new Ultimate books? Will they only be produced in Hero Plus  
     format, or will GRG be putting actual paper versions out? 
      
     If there is a debate between the two formats, I'd just like to  
     voice my opinion that the actual bound paper version is much 
     more desirable than the electronic format. I bought USM, but 
     due to the format, have only read the first chapter or two 
     of the book. Had it been a bound version, I would have not only 
     already read it through, but would have made a couple characters 
     using it's info, like I did the two previous books.  
      
     As much as I like the idea of more stuff being published for 
     the Hero system, Hero Plus isn't very accessible, nor is it 
     easy to use. Of course, it's better than nothing... 
      
     (BTW, I've seen more Signs of the Apocalypse lately...First, 
     Mage II comes out. Then Avengers is good again. Now a Fifth 
     Edition of Hero! Satan must be ice-skating...) 
      
     Richard 
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 15:34:31 -0800 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: Future Ultimate books? (humour) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
The Top 'n' Ultimate Books you WON'T be seeing in the near future... 
 
The Ultimate Annoying Kid Sidekick 
The Ultimate Trendoid (featuring skateboard heroes, CB heroes, rollerblade 
heroes, disco heroes) 
The Ultimate Gnomes&Halflings Handbook 
The Ultimate Strapless Evening Gown Wearing Heroine 
The Ultimate Shambling Mockery Of A Man 
The Ultimate Duck Trapped In A World He Never Made 
The Ultimate Powergamer (featuring tips on buying 'missing one hand' per 
finger) 
The Ultimate DNPC (featuring 'heart attack' rules and the 'kidnap prone' 
disadvantage) 
 
From: "Roger A. Wesson, Jr." <uraeus@bunt.com> 
Subject: Campaign worlds 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 00:45:55 +0100 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
  I was wondering if anyone out there has designed any unusual campaign worlds for use with their gaming.  I only have a few ideas floating around in my head at the moment and wanted to hear what others are doing so that I might steal some ideas. 
  Below I've listed the things that I am planning on including in the history of the world I'll be using in my next campaign. 
  Please note that I prefer a more serious tone in my games; usually somewhere around the Wild Card universe but a little lighter tone.  I don't enjoy transdimensional-intergalactic-crosstime god-on-Earth type games.  Think low-fantasy or middle-fantasy as compared to high-fantasy; except superheroes instead of fantasy. 
 
  Let me know what you think. 
  -Roger 
 
 - Heroes have always been around.  The actual numbers of heroes on Earth over time waxes and wans (sp?) following an unknown cycle. 
 
 - Heroes in the past were not usually as forthright about their powers due to fear of being mistaken as witches/warlocks.  Some heroes from the past were (and still are) called gods and/or saints. 
 
 - During the '40s and '50s more and more superpowers emerged to the public eye.  This was due in part to life-imitating-art in that the media of the time was filled with heroes (Superman, Batman, The Shadow...) so of course people soon started following (spandex)suit. 
 
 - Starting in the late '60s/early '70s the world's superhero population began to balloon as the superhero cycle upswing. 
 
 - Neo-paganism has become widespread and a strong force in the modern world.  Neo-pagan churches and organizations are now mainstream and can hold their own against the older established religions. This is due to the fact that...  
 - The assassination of JFK was foiled by a neo-pagan doctor who knew there was no other way to save the President than by overt magick.  JFK survived and was so taken with this doctor that he (and later the entire Kennedy clan)  left the Catholic church and became a Pagan.  This brought Neo-paganism to the public view, and many following JFK's example embraced the religion. 
 
 - JFK was reelected by a narrow margin to a second term, but less than six months into this term he was assassinated.  This time there was no revival.  The killer had used ritual means to totally destroy JFK's lifeforce so that he could never be resurrected. 
 
 - Today, each of the major religions of the world have associated superheroes/super-groups, both officially sactioned and not.  The battles when these various sides meet are often vicious and spectacular. 
 
 - There are great numbers of supers in the modern world, but many (~80%) 
have only low-level powers (50-75 base/60-75 disadv). 
 
  
  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: New Advantage:Engulfing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 29 Dec 1997 19:00:20 -0500 
Lines: 29 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes: 
 
JaRP> B.) Uses the smallest armor value on the target. If the target has 
JaRP> armor w/ an activation value to simulate partial coverage, it fails. 
 
This guarantees that the attack will always bypass "worn" armor, regardless 
of coverage, regardless of defense.  It makes no sense that someone wearing 
a full suit of plate will take as much damage as someone wearing little 
more than a padded shirt when the damage done by the attack is the same. 
 
We already have this advantage; it is called "NND". 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:27:24 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Future Ultimate books? (humour) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:34 PM 12/29/97 -0800, Lizard wrote: 
>The Top 'n' Ultimate Books you WON'T be seeing in the near future... 
> 
>The Ultimate Annoying Kid Sidekick 
 
   Actually, leave out "Annoying Kid" and you have a title I've been 
thinking of doing myself. 
 
>The Ultimate Trendoid (featuring skateboard heroes, CB heroes, rollerblade 
>heroes, disco heroes) 
 
   Maybe a campaign book featuring *one* type at a time.  (I'm thinking of 
making the heroes in Chaos Theory professional clowns.) 
 
>The Ultimate Gnomes&Halflings Handbook 
 
   I will personally kill any author who even attempts this.  The cause of 
death will be torture.  Only after 42 days (at the minimum) will I allow 
the perpetrator of this travesty to die. 
 
>The Ultimate Strapless Evening Gown Wearing Heroine 
 
   Don't worry; like The Ultimate Genetically Altered Laboratory Mouse Bent 
on World Domination, it's just too narrow a category. 
 
>The Ultimate Shambling Mockery Of A Man 
>The Ultimate Duck Trapped In A World He Never Made 
 
   These two would be in the same book, "The Ultimate Nearly But Not Quite 
Human." 
 
>The Ultimate Powergamer (featuring tips on buying 'missing one hand' per 
>finger) 
 
   I think Allston may have done something along these lines. 
 
>The Ultimate DNPC (featuring 'heart attack' rules and the 'kidnap prone' 
>disadvantage) 
 
   You know, this one isn't really such a bad idea! 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Punching People Into Orbit 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 19:28:20 -0500 (EST) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I've been semi-following the thread on knockback, and it's got 
me thinking... even with a strength of 200, you can only knock 
someone back on the order of hundreds of feet.  Maybe another 
mechanic is called for.  I don't know if this has been suggested, 
but how about flight, usable against others with a several one 
minute charges to represent the poor victim being knocked so 
hard that he flies though the air for a full minute before he hits 
the ground.  You could have a linked, 0 Range EB to simulate the 
initial damage of the punch, and the damage of the landing would 
be the move-through from the flight as the victim is shoved into 
the ground.  You might need an "Uncontrolled" advantage on the 
flight.  What do you think, folks; good idea? bad idea? 
 
-Eric 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:33:20 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Website Update 
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   As a note for those of you who keep track, I have just posted (after 
long last) an update to my website.  The new material isn't very profound, 
but it should be rather interesting. 
   For one thing, I've posted Combat Sequencer and Hero Dice, two Windows 
utilities for helping GMs manage Hero combat (assuming a computer is 
available where play is held).  Amy Crittenden (aka Theala Sildorian) was 
having trouble posting these to her own site, so I put them on mine. 
   The other change I've made is using the computer microphone I just 
bought to record of .WAV files of some of my characters' Quotes, so you can 
hear me doing the voices the way I "visualize" them. 
   Because of the procedures for website updates on my system, it may take 
a couple of days before the changes are actually posted to the site. 
   I hope that those of you who pay attention to this stuff enjoy what I've 
done. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 01:10:52 +0000 
From: Chris Brecken <Christopher.Brecken@sunderland.ac.uk> 
Subject: Something different 
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I have got a villen that i want to be able to parralise someone for a 
short period of time using a martial blow... 
I had an idear of a NND(1) attach with a linked entangel power(invisible 
power effects. Is this leagle and can anyone think of a better way of 
doing the attack... 
 
Cheers 
	Chris 
 
--  
"Don't put your trust in foolish promises sworn. 
 Nor cryptic message scrawled upon every wall" 
 
  Tony Clarkin, 
  The Spirit 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 17:44:51 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Punching People Into Orbit 
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At 07:28 PM 12/29/97 -0500, Eric Burns wrote: 
>I've been semi-following the thread on knockback, and it's got 
>me thinking... even with a strength of 200, you can only knock 
>someone back on the order of hundreds of feet.  Maybe another 
>mechanic is called for.  I don't know if this has been suggested, 
>but how about flight, usable against others with a several one 
>minute charges to represent the poor victim being knocked so 
>hard that he flies though the air for a full minute before he hits 
>the ground.  You could have a linked, 0 Range EB to simulate the 
>initial damage of the punch, and the damage of the landing would 
>be the move-through from the flight as the victim is shoved into 
>the ground.  You might need an "Uncontrolled" advantage on the 
>flight.  What do you think, folks; good idea? bad idea? 
 
   I think it needs to be tweaked somewhat (such as Linking the Flight UBO 
to STR), but it seems to me that the general idea is sound. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 17:57:34 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Punching People Into Orbit 
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Eric Burns writes: 
> I've been semi-following the thread on knockback, and it's got 
> me thinking... even with a strength of 200, you can only knock 
> someone back on the order of hundreds of feet.  Maybe another 
> mechanic is called for. 
<suggestion with 'flight' zapped> 
This depends on whether what you want is a character with a _special_ ability 
to do super-knockback, or whether you simply want large quantities of knockback 
because it's part of the genre (ps: I _haven't_ been following any knockback 
threads).  Knockback in Hero is one of several things where the Hero system's 
confusion between linear measure (as applied to movement) and exponential 
measure (as applied to strength and damage) tends to cause breakdowns.  
Assuming that an 8d6 punch will knock someone back 1 hex (2 meters; requires 
velocity of roughly 4 m/s, which is a bit high but not wholly unreasonable), 
doubling your strength will ordinarily increase the velocity (and momentum) of 
a strike by sqrt(2).  This gives a typical velocity of 2^(dice-4)/2 
meters/second, which works out to 4m/s for an 8d6 punch, and 16m/s (enough for 
about 4 hexes through the air, and probably skidding for an additional 5-6 
hexes).  This is close enough to reasonable for standard power Hero attacks 
(12d6 averages 5 hexes).  However, if we up the power by a bit -- 20d6 should 
give a velocity of 128 m/s, which (in a flat punch) will throw someone some 30 
hexes before bouncing, and will probably skid close to half a mile before 
actually stopping.  Strike at a 45 degree angle and the target will fly through 
the air for 18 seconds, hitting about a mile away.  At 32d6 we hit 8 km/second, 
sufficient to actually knock people into orbit. 
 
However, you can't simply let knockback get scaled up into these huge numbers 
-- first of all, with linear knockback _damage_ you would tend to atomize 
planets with the knockback from a powerful attack, and secondly, swatting 
someone for a mile tends to have negative effects on the ability to use a 
hex-mat for combat, and would rather suck if the person being swatted was a 
player whose character had no major movement powers... 
 
Actually, the DC heroes knockback system _did_ work this way -- everything was 
measured in APs.  I've never actually played in a DCH game, so I'm not sure how 
this would work in practice. 
 
No solutions being suggested right now, just semi-helpful numbers  
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:42:07 -0800 
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On Monday, December 29, 1997 6:22 AM, qts wrote: 
 
 
>On Thu, 25 Dec 1997 23:10:21 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
> 
<snip> 
> 
>So, if I have a Cosmic Pool of 10 pts, I have a Control Cost of 15, 
and 
>need to put 3 points to the Control Cost for every 2 points in the 
>Pool. 
> 
>So, if I buy 2d6 Absorbtion with the +2 Advantage, and put on a decay 
>time of 5 mins (+1/2), for a total of 35 pts), specifying that the 
>points go to the VPP and absorbtion on a 5:2 basis. So, with every 7 
>pts Absorbed (the average), the VPP goes up by a whopping TWO points. 
>And for this, I've spent 60 pts total. 
> 
>I would submit that there are far better ways of spending 60 pts. 
> 
That's why you need the Absorption to feed to the VPP _and_ the 
extended decay time on the Absorption. By the time that five minutes 
are up, the number of points gained has significantly increased this 
time, and it keep going up and up. 
 
So, he gets an old lamp, cuts the cord, strips the wire ends, and 
hangs on for ten minutes, until his VPP has enough points to make him 
effectively immune to the current with a force field. Then he tapes 
the wires to his head and goes to sleep. 
 
By morning, he could take Dr. Destroyer with one hand tied behind his 
back. Additionally, the decay time is so long that he could simply do 
this every night, getting more and more powerful, with negligible loss 
during the day. To top it off, he could use the VPP to boost the 
Absorption, causing him to gain points faster, up to the limit of 
damage done by a wall socket per segment. He could then wire himself 
into a high-voltage system. 
 
Within a week, he could make planets. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Breakable, Inaccessible Foci 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 19:00:23 -0800 
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On Monday, December 29, 1997 7:15 AM, Stirling Westrup wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
 
<<Using these rules, and going back to the original post on this 
topic, we have a 
character with: 
 
10/10 rPD/rED armor       (30 Active Points) bought as OIF Armor, 
5/5  rPD/rED force field (10 Active Points) bought OAF Shield 
 
And someone hits the target for 3d6K rolling 11 BODY. 
 
- The player has 15 rDEF and takes no body. 
- The armor is effectively DEF 20, with 4 Body, and ignores the 
attack. 
- The shield is effectively DEF 10 with 2 Body and takes 1 body. 
 
The GM tells the player that a large chunk was taken out of the 
shield, and it 
now has an 11- activation roll (or alternately, is now 3/3 rather than 
5/5).>> 
 
Let me see if I understand this. The armor gets 10 DEF from the rule 
that says that it gets the greater of either Active Points/5 or points 
provided by the defenses of the Focus, _and_ it gets 10 DEF from the 
defense provided by its only power, the Armor, because that power gets 
its own defenses in addition to the defenses supplied by the Focus. 
 
Hmmm. This covers one thing that I always wanted- a good excuse for 
players to buy their Focus's as a single device, rather than separate 
ones. Separate ones have the advantage that they take longer to take 
away or destroy, one at a time, but grouped ones get the advantage of 
being protected by the defenses of the best defensive power. 
 
It also gives a good reason to tell a power gamer, looking for an 
excuse to have Armor and a Force Field, to protect against more NND 
attacks, "Well, you can do that, but your armor will be more easily 
broken. It's up to you." 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Titanic  
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 19:04:56 -0800 
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On Monday, December 29, 1997 8:01 AM, Ken Crist wrote: 
 
 
> 
>>> Eh?  Something against good acting?  He's been nominated for an 
>>>Oscar two years ago and a Golden Globe for this role. 
>> 
>>No offense, but under the right circumstances, I could barf on a 
sidewalk 
>>and win a Golden Globe. It's a publicity tool, not a real 
accomplishment. 
> 
> And if the right PR company picked it up, you'd get the Oscar 
>as well. Neither of these awards means anything about the ability of 
>the winner. 
 
 
That is absolutely not true. A good performance is often overlooked, 
that is true. Both the Oscar's and the Golden Globe can be influenced 
by publicity and other factors. That does not alter the fact that _if 
you win_ the Golden Globe, your performance was almost certainly good, 
and if you win the Oscar, it _definitely_ was. Maybe not the best, or 
even better than those not nominated, but definitely good. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Using skills... 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 19:33:51 -0800 
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On Monday, December 29, 1997 10:20 AM, Rodrigo Cesar Gevaerd de Faria 
wrote: 
 
 
> 
>   In the skill section is said that if a character fails a skill 
roll, he 
>will get nothing from any futher skill roll unless he gets some kind 
of 
>bonus. 
>   Let me see if I understood this right... so if a wounded person 
>receives a paramedic attempt, but it fails. So the person who 
attempted 
>the paramedic will never succeed anymore unless he gets a bonus, by 
>spending extra time for example ? 
> 
 
 
On that person, yes. On other people, the original failed roll means 
nothing. 
 
Champions needs a good rule for continuous attempts. "I will continue 
to try to pick this lock for one hour." Then, if they still fail, they 
failed, but if they succeeded by a particular amount, they would 
succeed faster. No, "I know you rolled a 4, but you said you were 
taking an hour, so the door didn't open before the VIPER agents 
arrived." 
 
Then, you could say things like, "I will continue to use First Aid on 
him until I succeed or he dies." Additionally, in the case of First 
Aid, there should be a rule which allows for saving a person by 
continuous effort for hours, or even days. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Using skills... 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 19:47:10 -0800 
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On Monday, December 29, 1997 12:40 PM, Lizard wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>Because you'll get people who buy a minimal level in a skill and keep 
>trying 'until they get it right'. It's a game balance issue. I tend 
to 
>allow re-rolls if the player really shouldn't have failed a roll, or 
if a 
>failure would seriously derail the story to no purpose. 
> 
>Example from another game:In a Star Wars game, the starport was 
hidden deep 
>in a volcano and accessible only through a long cavern. The pilot had 
>something like 5d+2 in piloting, so I said, "Make a Difficulty 12 
roll to 
>get through". Well, she failed. Rather than having the ship seriously 
>damaged, I just said "Well, you managed to scrape the bottom turret 
on the 
>wall and probably damaged the gun...roll again." She did, and got 
out. 
> 
>Now, if someone had tried that with 3D piloting, I'd have probably 
made the 
>damage far more severe, and not allowed a reroll. 
 
But in the Star Wars game, trying again wasn't inherent in the 
situation. However, when trying to fix a car, trying again and again 
can be very useful. As an amateur mechanic, I know. Give me time and 
the necessary tools, and I'll eventually fix or replace virtually 
anything on a car. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Using skills... 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 19:54:05 -0800 
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On Monday, December 29, 1997 1:34 PM, bobby farris wrote: 
 
>"bf" == bobby farris <redbf@ldd.net> writes: 
>> 
>> bf> However, I personally would enforce a penalty (small) because 
he had already tried once and remember the story is the thing so if 
the player needs help...... 
> 
>> Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>> ... he slows down, tries a different approach, etc.  Why penalize 
the 
>> character for doing things right? 
>> 
> Like I said it would depend on the story, but I feel he should get a 
>small penalty or players will just continue to roll for the same 
thing 
>over and over and over.... untill they succeed. 
 
If the task was one which would normally take an hour (say, replacing 
a starter motor on the easier cars), then a failure on the first roll 
means it will take at least 5 more hours to do a one hour job, if you 
use extra time to give yourself the required bonus. If you failed 
again, a full day. 
 
Thus, two failures means taking the better part of two days to finish. 
 
Taking _five times_ as long to do a job so as to get it done should be 
sufficient to negate any penalty. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: New Advantage:Engulfing 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 20:07:51 -0800 
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On Monday, December 29, 1997 3:03 PM, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>I'd think that an 'engulfing' attack should target the _minimum_ 
armored 
>area on a target. After all, it's hitting all parts, right? So an 
Engulfing 
>Attack would: 
> 
>A.) Ignore hit locations (is a 'no location' attack) 
>B.) Uses the smallest armor value on the target. If the target has 
armor w/ 
>an activation value to simulate partial coverage, it fails. 
 
No. That isn't an attack that hits the entire target. That's an attack 
that specifically hits the weak point. They aren't the same thing at 
all. Armor with coverage-based Activation gets in the way of part of 
the first, and thus has partial effect, but doesn't get in the way of 
the second. 
 
>In superheroic this is probably +1/2. In herioc it's at least +1. 
 
Your version, yes. However, that wouldn't be Engulfing. Engulfing 
should hit like an Area Effect attack- all armor affects it, in 
proportion to its coverage. Yours was once done, in the Gadgets! book, 
as combat levels specifically designed to negate the Activation rolls 
of the target's defenses. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Something different 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 20:16:29 -0800 
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On Monday, December 29, 1997 4:38 PM, Chris Brecken wrote: 
 
 
>I have got a villen that i want to be able to parralise someone for a 
>short period of time using a martial blow... 
>I had an idear of a NND(1) attach with a linked entangel 
power(invisible 
>power effects. Is this leagle and can anyone think of a better way of 
>doing the attack... 
> 
 
 
You could try a Transformation attack, with a fairly severe limitation 
on the length of time it takes to recover. It's expensive, but 
undeniably legal. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:42:01 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: One last note about e-courtesy 
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At 10:15 PM 12/28/97 -0500, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
<net-politeness stuff snipped> 
 
>  Good day. Good health. And good gaming! 
> 
>  Be a Hero! 
> 
>  [ Mark steps down from the podium and walk off stage. A silence falls over 
>the assembled crowd. And then... ] 
> 
 
[and then. .] 
"Let's get him!"  
[irrational militant anti-fuzion maniacs charge from the crowd,  
only to run off in the opposite direction by mistake] 
 
 
 
>  Mark @ GRG 
> 
 
 
 
ps: hey, i haven't said nething all day ;->~  
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting (AGAIN) 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 20:51:11 -0800 
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On Monday, December 29, 1997 3:22 PM, Stirling Westrup wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
 
<<This brings up a problem with shapeshifting that I came across 
recently. I'm 
converting the old AD&D treasure list over to Hero System, for use in 
a Fantasy 
Hero campaign. One of the hardest items to deal with yet has been a 
potion of 
polymorph. You're not supposed to put the pool cost of a VPP into a 
focus, but 
how then do you build the potion? Without ANY sort of limitation on 
the Pool, 
the fact that it is independant, or one use ever, doesn't make it 
cheaper. Its 
bad enough an alchemist has to pay 5 character points to build the 
average 
potion (this needs fixing bad IMHO), but 60 or 70??? No way!>> 
 
Well, to begin with, you can make the power cheaper with Limitations. 
The _Pool_ cost doesn't change, but you can change the value of powers 
within it. 
 
Ex: 
 
A VPP has a 50 pt Pool. The Pool itself always costs 50 real points. 
The points it is full of are real points, and thus powers bought with 
as real points. 
 
I create a 10d6 EB with no Limitations. This costs 50 real points. The 
Pool is full, I have no other powers. If, however, I create a 10d6 EB 
with the OIF Limitation, the EB only costs 33 Real points. Since the 
Pool is 50 Real points, you still have 27 Real points left to spend. 
 
That said, do not put points from a VPP into an Independent, one 
charge only forever Focus. That is just a way to waste points. One 
charge, perhaps, but not Independent, and definitely not one charge 
only forever. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:26:12 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Punching People Into Orbit 
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At 07:28 PM 12/29/97 -0500, Eric Burns wrote: 
>I've been semi-following the thread on knockback, and it's got 
>me thinking... even with a strength of 200, you can only knock 
>someone back on the order of hundreds of feet.  Maybe another 
>mechanic is called for.  I don't know if this has been suggested, 
>but how about flight, usable against others with a several one 
>minute charges to represent the poor victim being knocked so 
>hard that he flies though the air for a full minute before he hits 
>the ground.  You could have a linked, 0 Range EB to simulate the 
>initial damage of the punch, and the damage of the landing would 
>be the move-through from the flight as the victim is shoved into 
>the ground.  You might need an "Uncontrolled" advantage on the 
>flight.  What do you think, folks; good idea? bad idea? 
> 
>-Eric 
> 
 
how about this? the 'punch' is actually a throw. will that give signifigantly more distance? 
 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 00:30:14 EST 
Subject: DunDraCon info 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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  DunDraCon 
  February 13-16, 1998 
  San Ramon Marriot Hotel 
  San Ramon, CA (off Hwy 680, Between San Jose & Walnut Creek, I believe) 
 
  For additional info check out their web site at http://www.dundracon.com/ 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:49:39 +1000 
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Future Ultimate books? (humour) 
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At 03:34 PM 12/29/97 -0800, Lizard wrote: 
>The Top 'n' Ultimate Books you WON'T be seeing in the near future... 
> 
>The Ultimate Annoying Kid Sidekick 
>The Ultimate Trendoid (featuring skateboard heroes, CB heroes, rollerblade 
>heroes, disco heroes) 
>The Ultimate Gnomes&Halflings Handbook 
>The Ultimate Strapless Evening Gown Wearing Heroine 
>The Ultimate Shambling Mockery Of A Man 
>The Ultimate Duck Trapped In A World He Never Made 
>The Ultimate Powergamer (featuring tips on buying 'missing one hand' per 
>finger) 
>The Ultimate DNPC (featuring 'heart attack' rules and the 'kidnap prone' 
>disadvantage) 
> 
 
hmm, okies, hows about: 
 
The Ultimate angst-soaked loner. 
 
The Ultimate superfluous third telepath 
 
The Ultimate super-pastry 
 
The Ultimate walking RKA 
 
The Ultimate genre-bending animal character 
 
The Ultimate inanimate hero 
 
The Ultimate pet npc 
 
The Ultimate blatant plot device to erase unpopular-but-cool  
story change from all continuity 
(ok, this last one's pretty obvious to an spidey-fans out there) 
 
From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net> 
Subject: Re: Future Ultimate books? (humour) 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 00:20:46 -0600 
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-----Original Message----- 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: Monday, December 29, 1997 11:47 PM 
Subject: Re: Future Ultimate books? (humour) 
 
 
>At 03:34 PM 12/29/97 -0800, Lizard wrote: 
>>The Top 'n' Ultimate Books you WON'T be seeing in the near future... 
>> 
>>The Ultimate Annoying Kid Sidekick 
>>The Ultimate Trendoid (featuring skateboard heroes, CB heroes, rollerblade 
>>heroes, disco heroes) 
>>The Ultimate Gnomes&Halflings Handbook 
>>The Ultimate Strapless Evening Gown Wearing Heroine 
>>The Ultimate Shambling Mockery Of A Man 
>>The Ultimate Duck Trapped In A World He Never Made 
>>The Ultimate Powergamer (featuring tips on buying 'missing one hand' per 
>>finger) 
>>The Ultimate DNPC (featuring 'heart attack' rules and the 'kidnap prone' 
>>disadvantage) 
>> 
> 
>hmm, okies, hows about: 
> 
>The Ultimate angst-soaked loner. 
> 
>The Ultimate superfluous third telepath 
> 
>The Ultimate super-pastry 
> 
>The Ultimate walking RKA 
> 
>The Ultimate genre-bending animal character 
> 
>The Ultimate inanimate hero 
> 
>The Ultimate pet npc 
> 
>The Ultimate blatant plot device to erase unpopular-but-cool 
>story change from all continuity 
>(ok, this last one's pretty obvious to an spidey-fans out there) 
 
No, that would have to be unpopular-and-stupid story change. 
 
What we need is "The Ultimate Gamemaster." 
 
 
 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: Re: Punching People Into Orbit 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 01:37:43 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
On Monday, December 29, 1997 Eric Burns wrote: 
  
> I've been semi-following the thread on knockback, and it's got 
> me thinking... even with a strength of 200, you can only knock 
> someone back on the order of hundreds of feet.  Maybe another 
> mechanic is called for.  I don't know if this has been suggested, 
> but how about flight, usable against others with a several one 
> minute charges to represent the poor victim being knocked so 
> hard that he flies though the air for a full minute before he 
hits 
> the ground.  You could have a linked, 0 Range EB to simulate the 
> initial damage of the punch, and the damage of the landing would 
> be the move-through from the flight as the victim is shoved into 
> the ground.  You might need an "Uncontrolled" advantage on the 
> flight.  What do you think, folks; good idea? bad idea? 
>  
> -Eric 
 
Aside from the use of a linked power to represent a long-distance 
Knockback, just what kind of energy would it take to put a man into 
orbit, using the guideline I've described in past posts?  Orbital 
velocity for a satellite is about 8 km/second, while Earth's escape 
velocity is 11 km/second.  For a 100 kg mass, these figures 
translate into energies on the order of 3 to 6 gigajoules, 
excluding the additional energy required to overcome air 
resistance.  In my scale, these energies mean Knockback roll 
results of 27 or 28.  There's a helluva big difference between 30" 
of Knockback under the official rules and sending a man to the moon 
with a more "realistic" energy value, so my method should be 
considered carefully before adding it to a high-power campaign. 
 
The issue isn't important in a great many campaigns, of course.  
Most GMs don't let characters throw 35d6 punches.  And even if such 
an exalted damage range is permitted, none but those with 
extraordinary defenses would have any body mass left to be knocked 
back.  The old Wolverine might barely survive the blow, and the 
original planet-pushing Superman might find it a momentary 
distraction, but most anyone else wouldn't leave any remains that 
could be identified--save for a genetic scan of a blood droplet or 
bone fragment. 
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
 
    
 
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 01:46:15 EST 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Punching and Stun and such... 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 97-12-29 13:33:45 EST, you write: 
 
<<  
 << In gaming, the term "cinematic" has a specialized jargon meaning. And this 
 is 
 a gaming discussion. To use the broader general meaning of "cinematic" in 
 these discussions is like using the term "heroic" to describe a four-color 
 Champions game: It breeds confusion. >> 
  
   Then my point was made. Thank you. So much for using words "precisely." 
  
 << You yourself have come across as beting terribly arrogant in your remarks, 
 and 
 I've responded by being (deliberately) snide in proportion. If your arrogance 
 was unintentional then I apologize for my snideness. >> 
  
   So if someone perceived something that you said as being confrontational 
and 
 said "Screw you!," that would be okay?? I disagree wholeheartedly. 
  
   If you or anyone else on this list has perceived me as arrogant then that 
is 
 a shame. If anyone has a question, they should ask. But sometimes running 
 along on assumptions can lead to disastrous results. 
  
   I never intended to come across as arrogant, but apparently I have. So what 
 am I to do? Should I sugar coar every one of my posts and walk on proverbial 
 eggshells when typing my messages and replies for this list? 
  
   I'm beginning to see this list as as much of a nuissance as a benefit. 
 People need to have slightly thicker skins, IMO, and stop blasting me for 
such 
 trivial matters as "using AOL-style quoting" (about which I've received 2 
 complaints via private e-mail), being an "arrogant, idiot-AOL user" and such. 
 Grow up. 
  
   I was participating in discussions on this list. If you don't like it, then 
 don't invite me. In fact, as I responded to you in a private message... maybe 
 it's time for me to take a break from this list. I have a lot better things 
to 
 do than be flamed for trivial, insignificant matters. 
  
   Mark @ GRG >> 
 
Mark... 
 
I hope you won't let the immaturity of a few list members cause you to leave 
the list.  I think it is vital to the list to have the presence of someone, 
such as yourself, of an official Hero Games capacity to not only take part in 
list discussions, but also to be able to bounce ideas off, ask questions of, 
and glean Champions users input from.  Especially with that confirmed 5th 
Edition in the works now. :) 
With the diversity of computer users, and as such, the diversity of maturity 
levels, you're going to have to rely on your own 'thick skin' to get through a 
couple bad posts so that you can see and contribute on a ton of good ones. 
 
'Lynx  
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:22:46 -0800 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: Future Ultimate books? (humour) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
Hash: SHA1 
 
At 04:27 PM 12/29/97 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>At 03:34 PM 12/29/97 -0800, Lizard wrote: 
>>The Top 'n' Ultimate Books you WON'T be seeing in the near  
future... 
>> 
>>The Ultimate Annoying Kid Sidekick 
> 
>   Actually, leave out "Annoying Kid" and you have a title I've been 
>thinking of doing myself. 
> 
It's more like the "Ultimate Low-Powered Super", which wouldn't be a  
bad idea, all things considered. 
 
 
>>The Ultimate Strapless Evening Gown Wearing Heroine 
> 
>   Don't worry; like The Ultimate Genetically Altered Laboratory  
Mouse Bent 
>on World Domination, it's just too narrow a category. 
> 
Heh. Check out the 1940s. There were DOZENS of them. 
 
>>The Ultimate Shambling Mockery Of A Man 
>>The Ultimate Duck Trapped In A World He Never Made 
> 
>   These two would be in the same book, "The Ultimate Nearly But Not  
Quite 
>Human." 
> 
The Ultimate Psuedo-Intellectual 70s Hero Which Hasn't Aged Well. 
 
 
>>The Ultimate DNPC (featuring 'heart attack' rules and the 'kidnap  
prone' 
>>disadvantage) 
> 
>   You know, this one isn't really such a bad idea! 
 
It's what I was hoping "Normals Unbound" was going to be -- I can  
make up my own NPCs, it's rules and general ideas I need to pay  
for... 
 
And, of course: 
 
"The Ultimate Super Pet" -- as in "The Legion of..." 
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GX8XrZ8AMYjgi7oTDaPmMDKN 
=I2V3 
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From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com> 
Subject: Re: Future Ultimate books? (humour) 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 2:41:34 CST 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> >The Ultimate Gnomes&Halflings Handbook 
>  
>    I will personally kill any author who even attempts this.  The cause of 
> death will be torture.  Only after 42 days (at the minimum) will I allow 
> the perpetrator of this travesty to die. 
 
UGHH:  Proposed ToC 
 
I.	Gnomes 
	a.	illusion-using proto-Dwarves in hills 
	b.	illusion-using proto-Dwarves in mountains 
	c.	illusion-using proto-Dwarves underground 
	d.	evil illusion-using proto-Dwarves underground 
	e.	stupid mad inventing Gnomes 
	f.	totally technological Gnomes (with modern variant) 
	g.	Gnomes of Zurich (with mods for Champions Universe) 
II.	Halflings 
	a.	"circular metal band"-type Halflings 
	b.	"elven"-like Halfings 
	c.	"dwarven"-like Halflings 
	d.	"human"-like Halflings 
	e.	Kender 
III.	Enemies of the Gnomes and Halflings 
	a.	Giant Foxes 
	b.	Rabid Weasels 
	c.	the group of Gnomes who work in Dr. Destroyer's labs 
	d.	Eurostar 
IV.	Adventure: 50 Ways to Cook Halfling by CLOWN 
 
The more I think about it, perhaps I'd need to do this as a HERO Plus 
book, because to do it justice I'd need more than 250 pages... 
 
> >The Ultimate Shambling Mockery Of A Man 
> >The Ultimate Duck Trapped In A World He Never Made 
>  
>    These two would be in the same book, "The Ultimate Nearly But Not Quite 
> Human." 
 
Um - that last one belongs in "The Ultimate Superpet", with Howard the  
Duck "Champions Universe" clone "Quincy the Goose" narrating... 
 
 
DonM. 
-- 
========================================================================= 
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist,              (217) 239-8365 =  
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL     dmckinne@cmi.csc.com = 
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 = 
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org    (217) 469-9917 =  
========================================================================= 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org> 
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> 
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:24:42 +0000 
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting (AGAIN) 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
So Sayeth Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com&> 
 
> >One of the hardest items to deal with yet has been a potion of  
> >polymorph. ...how then do you build the potion?  
>  
> How about Multiform or Transform? 
 
Well, technically Transform is illegal. You aren't ever supposed to cast  
Transform on yourself, and using an independant power counts as HAVING that  
power. As for Multiform, it works in the specific case of Polymorph, since all  
polymorph actually gives (digging out the old Players Handbook) is size and  
movement powers. BUT there are other magical items in the treasure list that  
allow you to have the powers of the creature you are imitating. In those cases,  
how do you know what powers to buy for the multipower?  
 
 
--  
 Stirling Westrup  |  Use of the Internet by this poster 
 sti@cam.org       |  is not to be construed as a tacit 
                   |  endorsement of Western Technological 
                   |  Civilization or its appurtenances. 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting (AGAIN) 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:57:54 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>One of the hardest items to deal with yet has been a potion of  
>polymorph. ...how then do you build the potion?  
 
How about Multiform or Transform? 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 05:08:31 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Bryce Berggren wrote: 
 
> On the subject of HA ... I've been doing some thinking on this. Most people 
> think that keeping HA at 3 pts./die leads to ridiculously low active-point costs 
> (agreed). However, jumping it to 5 pts./die without changing STR's cost results 
> in penalizing players arbitrarily on concept (which, as we've seen in Fuzion's 
> Figured Characteristic rules, Hero Games really doesn't have a problem with, 
> but I digress). 
>  
> I can't help but notice that God, in his infinite wisdom, has placed a number 
> larger than 3, but smaller than 5. This number also happens to match the cost 
> of plain-vanilla extra DC as bought in Martial Arts. 
>  
> Thus, I'm curious: why can't I remember any suggestions to raise HA's cost to 
> /4/ points per die, and leave it at that? 
  
   I made this logical leap at the inception of the first STR vs. HA 
debate I encountered, but have generally kept it to myself, since this 
is one of the threads on this list I am morally bound to 'stay out of' 
as much as possible. 
   But since I'm here, let me just point out that there is an additional 
balance in having 'extra DC' for MA the same as 'HA' for others; in MA, 
the extra DCs apply also to NNDs and HKAs and STR for non-damage 
maneuvers.  However for HA, the damage would apply only to any 
normal-damage STR-based attacks, though NOT require the purchase of 
maneuvers to use. 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 05:53:02 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Something different 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:10 AM 12/30/97 +0000, Chris Brecken wrote: 
>I have got a villen that i want to be able to parralise someone for a 
>short period of time using a martial blow... 
>I had an idear of a NND(1) attach with a linked entangel power(invisible 
>power effects. Is this leagle and can anyone think of a better way of 
>doing the attack... 
 
   Personlly, I'd lean toward something with the Disable element.  If 
you're using TUMA, a Joint Break maneuver would probably be the ticket, or 
quite close.  Just design it so it always targets the Legs, and give it a 
couple of additional "unusual" special effects. 
   The other option I could think of would be a Drain on Running or STR, 
possibly NND, with various Modifiers to make it work as desired (like a 
Limitation for "All or Nothing When Draining" if it's a STR Drain, probably 
at -1). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:17:22 -0600 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net 
Organization: Redbow Antiques 
Subject: Encumberance 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
The way I understand it Encumberance is one of the things that is going 
to be redone in the new 5th edition, atleast I hope so. 
	In the meantime I am running a Fantasy Hero campaign and am haved moved 
the DEX/DCV penalties down one weight class so that the table looks like 
this: 
 
	Weight           DCV/DEX 
	0-6.4kg            0 
	6.50-12.5          -1 
	12.6-25            -2 
		etc. 
 
	I would like for someone to tell me how they are doing their 
encumberance rules as I really do not like this. TIA 
 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:20:54 -0600 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net 
Organization: Redbow Antiques 
Subject: Units of Measure 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
This I guess if for Mark @GRG more than anyone else, but could we have 
an update of the Hero system units of measure. Lets get rid of inches 
and and the Metric system. 
	The inches are just plain annoying and I see no reason to convert from 
them to feet or meters when it would just be simple to use straight feet 
or meters. 
	Also the Metric system was a great idea, but people didn't switch over 
so, (asking the apology of our non-American players and readers) lets go 
back to good old Feet, Yards, and Pounds. 
 
Subject: Re: Using skills... 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-5,10-12 
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:32:29 EST 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>   Let me see if I understood this right... so if a wounded person 
>receives a paramedic attempt, but it fails. So the person who  
>attempted 
>the paramedic will never succeed anymore unless he gets a bonus, by 
>spending extra time for example ? 
 
He won't get any more sucesses  _on that patient_ (the paramedic would 
get a normal roll on any other injured people).  Most likely, he 
misjudged the injury.  If he then gets advice or looks again, he gets 
another chance to get it right.  If he doesn't, he can't correct his 
mistakes. 
 
Leah 
 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:02:23 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: Encumberance 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, bobby farris wrote: 
 
> The way I understand it Encumberance is one of the things that is going 
> to be redone in the new 5th edition, atleast I hope so. 
 
I've never really had a problem with the Encumbrance rules as they stand, 
with one exception: I think there should be a movement penalty as well as 
a DEX/DCV penalty, so the guy in full plate can't outrun someone 
unarmored. I do so very simply, by applying the DEX roll penalty to 
inches of movement as well. 
 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:07:25 -0700 
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
Subject: Re: Encumberance 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
bobby farris wrote: 
           etc. 
>  
>         I would like for someone to tell me how they are doing their 
> encumberance rules as I really do not like this. 
 
In my FH campaign, I use the Encumbrance rules as written, but only for 
Armor and weapons. I don't count miscellenia into the total (unless the 
player is really pushing it, but I have yet to have that happen). This 
means Encumbrance does not have to be refigured everytime some minor 
thing changes. Most of my players make a couple of notes on the 
character sheets and forget about it. I also apply those penalties to a 
magic Skill roll. 
 
I also allow characters to purchase levels in DCV and Dex skills 
specifically to counteract the penalties of encumbrance. I treat them as 
2 point levels. I have a mage who wears some heavy leather with those 
kind of levels, as well as a knight that has full DCV in a plate/chain 
combination. It seems to work out well. 
 
 
 
--  
-Mhoram 
Visit Mhoram's Fantasy Hero Domain: 
http://relia.net/~mhoram/hero/FHsplash1.htm 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting (AGAIN) 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:15:31 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>>One of the hardest items to deal with yet has been a potion of  
>>>polymorph. ...how then do you build the potion?  
>> How about Multiform or Transform? 
>Well, technically Transform is illegal. You aren't ever supposed to 
cast  
>Transform on yourself, and using an independent power counts as HAVING  
>that power.  
 
It depends how it's done. If the potions are bought on the market or 
found in a loot bin, Transform should work fine, since the PCs didn't 
make the item and won't be transforming themselves. If the PC is the 
alchemist and wants to change himself into a specific form, Multiform 
should work. Even if it's not a specific form, Multiform could still 
work with the variable special effects advantage and GM's permission. 
 
But if the PC wants to make the potion and be able to transform himself 
and his friends into anything he wants, it takes a little more work. 
I've seen intelligent swords and such written up as followers, who buy 
abilities usable by one other (the wielder). If you take the same kind 
of approach here, the PC alchemist who makes the potion could buy it as 
Transform Usable Against Others. Since UAO gives the character with the 
power complete control over how it's used, it could be treated as the 
potion casting a Transform on the PC, with the PC directing the effects. 
 
 
The other way to go is to get a small VPP and a large Aid to it. That 
way, more powerful polymorphs would take longer to build up power, but a 
10 point VPP with a 1d6 Aid versus all related powers (+2) with a 
maximum bought up to 50 or so, would give players the ability to change 
into anything, but at the cost of time. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
www.geocities.com/soho/5953 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 30 Dec 1997 12:35:35 -0500 
Lines: 33 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "l" == ludator <Vox> writes: 
 
l> The problem being, one doesn't add STR to HA, one adds HA to STR, and this 
l> is the way it needs to be (because STR is the basis of non-ranged normal 
l> damage combat). 
 
With "my" version of HA, this is not the case.  It works "just like" HKA, 
except the damage is "normal" instead of "killing".  This makes HA the 
basis for non-ranged normal damage, keeping the cost (5 points per DC) and 
usefulness in line with the powers for ranged normal damage, non-ranged 
killing damage, and ranged killing damage. 
 
This just makes more sense to me than the current version of HA, especially 
in light of the "fact" that the cost of Strength is not in line with the 
rest of the system. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:10:33 -0800 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I would like to start a *civilized* discussion on the powers/conceptions 
Hero doesn't presently handle very well, as a guideline for potential new 
powers/advantages/limitations/frameworks in HS5. 
 
a)Serial Form:This is the character who goes through a process of total 
bodily (and sometimes mental) transformation from adventure to adventure, 
but who cannot change at will or (usually) control his incarnation. 
Examples include 'Dial H For Hero', the Sleeper from Wild Cards, and 
(somewhat) the Molecule Man (he used to possess bodies until he learned to 
make one for himself). (To do it with a VPP would mean all the characters 
physical attributes, including figured, would need to be bought through the 
VPP. Also skills and sometimes perks.) 
 
b)Slipperiness, or other movement-impairing powers (Drain running doesn't 
really cut it) 
 
c)Immunity/invulerability:I know this is a major 'stop sign' power, but 
there's no real way to make someone who cannot be harmed by a specific 
special effect, such as a Fire Elemental who is simply immune to any flame 
based attacks. Yes, you can buy Damage Reduction (Only vs. flame) and 
armor/ED(Only vs. flame) and get a similair effect. Superhero and fantasy 
genres both have characters who 'cannot be harmed' by any means except 
(kryptonite/cold iron/the tears of a maiden/etc) 
 
d)Shapeshifting (see current thread), especially the high-powered Chameleon 
Boy kind of shapeshifting. (He once gained Desolid by shapeshifting) 
 
e)Small stunts:Super-speedsters cleaning their room in half a second. 
(Cosmetic Transform) Stretching characters picking locks without lockpicks. 
Etc. A VPP is often too flexible, and buying every stunt can be expensive. 
Some form of 'power skill' system to stimulate these kind of one-time 
'gimmicks' might be handy. 
 
f)Time control -- it's virtually impossible to 'stop time' in Hero, or, for 
that matter, speed it up. You can buy a lot of different powers with a 
'time control' effect, but in theory, all possible effects of stopping time 
should happen 'at once'.  
 
And a few minor points... 
 
Invisibility to a non-targetting sense ought to be a lot cheaper. A vampire 
who leaves behind no scent shouldn't pay as much as one who can move 
silently, who in turn should pay less than one who can't be seen at all. 
 
There should be a way to summon specific individuals. Sorcerors call up 
demons by name. The witches on 'Bewitched' could get Ben Franklin or Abe 
Lincoln. (Which brings up another point -- can you buy Summoning with 
Transdimensional to Summon beings from different times?) 
 
Let the flames....begin! 
 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:18:21 -0800 
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger) 
Subject: Re[2]: The STR & HA Worms 
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
     Rat wrote: 
      
     <With "my" version of HA, this is not the case.  It works "just like"  
     HKA, except the damage is "normal" instead of "killing".  This makes  
     HA the basis for non-ranged normal damage, keeping the cost (5 points  
     per DC) and usefulness in line with the powers for ranged normal  
     damage, non-ranged killing damage, and ranged killing damage.> 
      
     So with "your" version, if I have a 30 STR and a 2D6 HA (a billy  
     club), I can only do 4D6 damage when using it, as opposed to the  
     standard 8D6? Are they limited to double the DCs using STR, like HKA  
     are? 
      
     Richard 
 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:55:03 -0500 (EST) 
From: dq831@freenet.carleton.ca (Jamie Rosen) 
Subject: Re: Units of Measure 
Reply-To: dq831@freenet.carleton.ca 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> 
>This I guess if for Mark @GRG more than anyone else, but could we have 
>an update of the Hero system units of measure. Lets get rid of inches 
>and and the Metric system. 
 
<snip> 
 
>	Also the Metric system was a great idea, but people didn't switch over 
>so, (asking the apology of our non-American players and readers) lets go 
>back to good old Feet, Yards, and Pounds. 
 
 
Actually, many countries have switched over to the metric system.  But I 
can see why you wouldn't want to use it in a game.  I mean, who needs 
measurements that whose ratios are powers of ten.  It's so much easier to 
remember 1760 yards to a mile, 3 feet to a yard, 16 ounces to a pound 
(except gold, which is 12), 2000 lbs to a ton.  Why would I possibly want 
a system that doesn't use such logical ratios? 
 
-- 
Jamie Rosen - author, bad seed, and layabout on rec.arts.comics.creative 
------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Mistake is just experience in the present tense. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 30 Dec 1997 13:56:19 -0500 
Lines: 84 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> writes: 
 
L> a)Serial Form:This is the character who goes through a process of total 
L> bodily (and sometimes mental) transformation from adventure to adventure, 
L> but who cannot change at will or (usually) control his incarnation. 
 
Also known as "Guest Star".  The VPP works reasonably well.  You just need 
a GM that will allow a player to do it, because this kind of character can 
be immensely unbalancing. 
 
L> b)Slipperiness, or other movement-impairing powers (Drain running doesn't 
L> really cut it) 
 
I am partial to an extension to Change Environment, giving it degrees of 
effect similar to Transformation. 
 
L> c)Immunity/invulerability:I know this is a major 'stop sign' power, but 
L> there's no real way to make someone who cannot be harmed by a specific 
L> special effect, such as a Fire Elemental who is simply immune to any flame 
L> based attacks. 
 
This is a big no-no in Hero.  There are no absolute attacks or defenses. 
 
L> d)Shapeshifting (see current thread), especially the high-powered 
L> Chameleon Boy kind of shapeshifting. (He once gained Desolid by 
L> shapeshifting) 
 
Buy a framework with the "extra" abilities, with "shapeshift" as the 
special effect. 
 
L> e)Small stunts:Super-speedsters cleaning their room in half a second. 
L> (Cosmetic Transform) 
 
Change Environment. 
 
L> Stretching characters picking locks without lockpicks. 
 
Special effect... although technically that should require Shapeshift, 
something that many stretching characters should have. 
 
L> f)Time control -- it's virtually impossible to 'stop time' in Hero, or, 
L> for that matter, speed it up. 
 
As well it should be.  If you want to "go faster" (read: act more 
frequently in a Turn) buy more Speed.  Anything more than that is an 
absolute, which violates one of the core premises of Champions mechanics. 
 
L> Invisibility to a non-targetting sense ought to be a lot cheaper. A 
L> vampire who leaves behind no scent shouldn't pay as much as one who can 
L> move silently, who in turn should pay less than one who can't be seen at 
L> all. 
 
"Smell" may be a non-targeting sense for a normal person, but it is for 
many animals.  And those animals are used in this capacity. 
 
L> There should be a way to summon specific individuals. Sorcerors call up 
L> demons by name. The witches on 'Bewitched' could get Ben Franklin or Abe 
L> Lincoln. 
 
The proscription against summoning specific individuals is more to prevent 
characters from summoning their allies or enemies than anything else. 
 
L> (Which brings up another point -- can you buy Summoning with 
L> Transdimensional to Summon beings from different times?) 
 
Maybe... depends on the special effects. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 30 Dec 1997 13:57:58 -0500 
Lines: 28 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "RGS" == Richard G Schwerdtfeger <RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com> 
>>>>> writes: 
 
RGS>      So with "your" version, if I have a 30 STR and a 2D6 HA (a billy  
RGS>      club), I can only do 4D6 damage when using it, as opposed to the  
RGS>      standard 8D6? Are they limited to double the DCs using STR, like HKA  
RGS>      are? 
 
4D6, and yes.  "My" HA works *exactly* like HKA with the exception that the 
damage is "normal" instead of "killing". 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 97 14:06:29 -0500 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 12/30/97 1:10 PM, Lizard (lizard@mrlizard.com) Said: 
 
>I would like to start a *civilized* discussion on the powers/conceptions 
>Hero doesn't presently handle very well, as a guideline for potential new 
>powers/advantages/limitations/frameworks in HS5. 
 
I hope I can remain so... 
 
>c)Immunity/invulerability:I know this is a major 'stop sign' power, but 
>there's no real way to make someone who cannot be harmed by a specific 
>special effect, such as a Fire Elemental who is simply immune to any flame 
>based attacks. Yes, you can buy Damage Reduction (Only vs. flame) and 
>armor/ED(Only vs. flame) and get a similair effect. Superhero and fantasy 
>genres both have characters who 'cannot be harmed' by any means except 
>(kryptonite/cold iron/the tears of a maiden/etc) 
> 
I agree here, and usually allow 100% damage reduction (usually heavily  
limited, and always with at least one special effect that can penetrate  
it) to be bought to do this type of effect.  
 
>e)Small stunts:Super-speedsters cleaning their room in half a second. 
>(Cosmetic Transform) Stretching characters picking locks without lockpicks. 
>Etc. A VPP is often too flexible, and buying every stunt can be expensive. 
>Some form of 'power skill' system to stimulate these kind of one-time 
>'gimmicks' might be handy. 
> 
Shouldn't those just be chalked up to special effects, and given for free  
for the occasional use (but require purchase if it becomes too prevelant)? 
 
g) Flashes vs. Non-targeting senses should have more spelled-out game  
effects. I use Sight as my sole targeting sense, but a concussion grenade  
would likely have SOME effect on my OCV/DCV. Flash also needs to have  
more granularity (it is currently all or nothing), w/ OCV & DCV  
penalties, then loss of the sense. 
 
h) Transform needs one more level, Complete Transform (20 pts per die)  
for those transforms that are, um, well, more Complete than a Major  
transform. For Example, Blindness is a Major Transform, currently so is  
"Turn to Dust" although the blindness is far less limiting that being  
turned into dust. 
 
 
                                         |  David A. Fair 
        Think Different                  |  SDS International 
                                         |  dfair@sdslink.com 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: [HS5] Re: Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:10:27 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I agree that certain things need clarification, but I don't think  
 
Lizard says: 
>a) Serial Form 
 
What do you think that VPP, only change between adventures (or whenever) 
doesn't handle well? 
 
>c) Immunity/invulnerability 
 
Desolid already does the 'immune versus special effects' stuff. 
 
>e) Small stunts: Super-speedsters cleaning... Stretching characters  
>picking locks... A VPP is often too flexible, and buying every stunt  
>can be expensive. Some form of 'power skill' system to stimulate  
>these kind of one-time 'gimmicks' might be handy. 
 
It's normally handled as GM hand-waving. I've seen one GM who allowed 
10% of the AP to be used VPP-like. So a 50-point 10d6 electric EB could 
be used as a 5-point fire VPP. 
 
>f) Time control -- it's virtually impossible to 'stop time' in Hero 
 
Check out lots of time control gimmicks at 
http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905/haym12.html. 
 
>Invisibility to a non-targeting sense ought to be a lot cheaper.  
>There should be a way to summon specific individuals.  
 
Agreed. Summoning specific objects, too. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.geocities.com/soho/5953 
 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:26:24 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>I would like to start a *civilized* discussion on the powers/conceptions 
>Hero doesn't presently handle very well, as a guideline for potential new 
>powers/advantages/limitations/frameworks in HS5. 
> 
>a)Serial Form:This is the character who goes through a process of total 
>bodily (and sometimes mental) transformation from adventure to adventure, 
>but who cannot change at will or (usually) control his incarnation. 
>Examples include 'Dial H For Hero', the Sleeper from Wild Cards, and 
>(somewhat) the Molecule Man (he used to possess bodies until he learned to 
>make one for himself). (To do it with a VPP would mean all the characters 
>physical attributes, including figured, would need to be bought through the 
>VPP. Also skills and sometimes perks.) 
 
HERO handles this about as well as any other game system on the market. I 
mean, what game system expects you to totally re-write your character every 
game session? Aside from Call of Cthulhu...:-). 
 
But you _can_ do it in Champs terms. Take the 0-point 'normal', give him a 
180 point VPP, with the VPPControl Limitation "Change Only Between Sessions" 
(-1/2), and "Only in Hero ID" (VPPControl Cost = 51 points), and you've got 
250 - 180 - 51 = 19 points. And it's not hard to convince the GM to allow 
variable Disadvantages (i.e. always has 40 points worth of Psych Lims, 20 
worth of Vulnerabilities, etc.). 
 
Sure, it's only a 180 point hero, but you can squeeze more than 180 Active 
points out of it through limitations (including the above OIHID), and 180 
points isn't that bad... 
 
>b)Slipperiness, or other movement-impairing powers (Drain running doesn't 
>really cut it) 
 
You speak the truth... 
 
>c)Immunity/invulerability:I know this is a major 'stop sign' power, but 
>there's no real way to make someone who cannot be harmed by a specific 
>special effect, such as a Fire Elemental who is simply immune to any flame 
>based attacks. Yes, you can buy Damage Reduction (Only vs. flame) and 
>armor/ED(Only vs. flame) and get a similair effect. Superhero and fantasy 
>genres both have characters who 'cannot be harmed' by any means except 
>(kryptonite/cold iron/the tears of a maiden/etc) 
 
Very true, unless you want to kludge a desolid power. 
 
>d)Shapeshifting (see current thread), especially the high-powered Chameleon 
>Boy kind of shapeshifting. (He once gained Desolid by shapeshifting) 
 
Not busted. Not difficult. Just expensive, and rightly so. 
 
>e)Small stunts:Super-speedsters cleaning their room in half a second. 
>(Cosmetic Transform) Stretching characters picking locks without lockpicks. 
>Etc. A VPP is often too flexible, and buying every stunt can be expensive. 
>Some form of 'power skill' system to stimulate these kind of one-time 
>'gimmicks' might be handy. 
 
Hrm, to easy to abuse. I'd say go with an AE: Minor Transform. A lot of 
these 'tricks' can be thrown in amongst the character's Multipower - for 
example, most Speedsters will have a multipower that involves the heavy 
speedster tricks (autofire punches, etc.), and can also hold the little ones 
(ultra slots come cheap). Also, using Variable SFX and Variable Advantage 
can work wonders for this sort of thing. 
 
>f)Time control -- it's virtually impossible to 'stop time' in Hero, or, for 
>that matter, speed it up. You can buy a lot of different powers with a 
>'time control' effect, but in theory, all possible effects of stopping time 
>should happen 'at once'.  
 
Time Stopping should be as expensive as a large AE Major Transform, b/c it's 
pretty much an unstoppable license to kill. Just say no to cheap Time Stops. 
If you can't affect the time stopped world, it's Extra-Dimensional Movement, 
perhaps with some Transdimensional Clairsentience (to go and read that 
newspaper that guy is holding). 
 
>And a few minor points... 
> 
>Invisibility to a non-targetting sense ought to be a lot cheaper. 
 
Yes, it should. Of course, what is and isn't a targeting sense varies, 
especially in the superheroic genre. 
 
>A vampire 
>who leaves behind no scent shouldn't pay as much as one who can move 
>silently, who in turn should pay less than one who can't be seen at all. 
 
I agree, but this invisibility is a lot less obvious to 'normal' folks 
(unlike invisibility to sight - "Hey, Bob, how'd that door just open?" :-). 
> 
>There should be a way to summon specific individuals. 
 
THERE IS! BBB page 85: "Summon should only be used to summon a type or class 
of a creature, not a specific one, except with special GM permission." 
 
Why does everybody miss this "except" part? 
 
>Sorcerors call up 
>demons by name. The witches on 'Bewitched' could get Ben Franklin or Abe 
>Lincoln. (Which brings up another point -- can you buy Summoning with 
>Transdimensional to Summon beings from different times?) 
 
Arguably, they're not summoning Ben or Abe, just Ben or Abe simulacarum; 
after all, these 'summoned' historical figures don't (usually) go on to 
leave evidence of their trans-temporal experience, do they? 
 
So its: Summon Any One Historical Figure :-) :-) :-) - but all you really 
get are copies... 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:37:18 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>g) Flashes vs. Non-targeting senses should have more spelled-out game  
>effects. I use Sight as my sole targeting sense, but a concussion grenade  
>would likely have SOME effect on my OCV/DCV. Flash also needs to have  
>more granularity (it is currently all or nothing), w/ OCV & DCV  
>penalties, then loss of the sense. 
 
The Touch group definitely needs defining. That'd be: Pressure Sense, Heat 
Sense, Pain Sense, and Balance Sense for the Touch Group, IMHO. Maybe even 
Limb Location Sense - flashing this particular one would put Octopus Man in 
deep trouble :-) 
 
>h) Transform needs one more level, Complete Transform (20 pts per die)  
 
Nah. I think Cosmetic should drop to 3 points a die. Then minor at 5, major 
at 10, and complete at 15. Major Transforms are overpriced. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:39:50 -0800 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:56 PM 12/30/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> writes: 
> 
>L> a)Serial Form:This is the character who goes through a process of total 
>L> bodily (and sometimes mental) transformation from adventure to adventure, 
>L> but who cannot change at will or (usually) control his incarnation. 
> 
>Also known as "Guest Star".  The VPP works reasonably well.  You just need 
>a GM that will allow a player to do it, because this kind of character can 
>be immensely unbalancing. 
> 
If I were to permit it, I'd hand the player his (rewritten) character sheet 
at the start of each adventure. ("I've got mentalism powers now? And a STR 
of 5?") 
 
>L> b)Slipperiness, or other movement-impairing powers (Drain running doesn't 
>L> really cut it) 
> 
>I am partial to an extension to Change Environment, giving it degrees of 
>effect similar to Transformation. 
> 
Agreed. CE is something which should be made potentially more costly and a 
lot more effective. (It can be very nasty combined with Find Weakness 
already, for example) 
 
>L> c)Immunity/invulerability:I know this is a major 'stop sign' power, but 
>L> there's no real way to make someone who cannot be harmed by a specific 
>L> special effect, such as a Fire Elemental who is simply immune to any flame 
>L> based attacks. 
> 
>This is a big no-no in Hero.  There are no absolute attacks or defenses. 
> 
I know, and generally, I like it -- but isn't "No absolutes" itself an 
absolute? :) The superhero genre is *rife* with absolutes. And there 
already is a limited form of invulnerablity -- it's called Desolid.  
 
>L> d)Shapeshifting (see current thread), especially the high-powered 
>L> Chameleon Boy kind of shapeshifting. (He once gained Desolid by 
>L> shapeshifting) 
> 
>Buy a framework with the "extra" abilities, with "shapeshift" as the 
>special effect. 
> 
And growth, and shrinking, and HKA (growing spikes/horns), and clinging 
(transform to spider) and...well, a lot of other stuff. 
 
>L> e)Small stunts:Super-speedsters cleaning their room in half a second. 
>L> (Cosmetic Transform) 
> 
>Change Environment. 
> 
>L> Stretching characters picking locks without lockpicks. 
> 
>Special effect... although technically that should require Shapeshift, 
>something that many stretching characters should have. 
> 
I was thinking of a +1/4 advantage on certain skills:"Does not need tools". 
There are a number of skills which a suitably-powered character can use 
without external tools. 
 
>L> f)Time control -- it's virtually impossible to 'stop time' in Hero, or, 
>L> for that matter, speed it up. 
> 
>As well it should be.  If you want to "go faster" (read: act more 
>frequently in a Turn) buy more Speed.  Anything more than that is an 
>absolute, which violates one of the core premises of Champions mechanics. 
> 
I'd say anyone timestopped is basically immune to damage. But consider 
something from "Rhialto The Marvelous". A bunch of wizards are drawing lots 
to determine who has to do a nasty task. One casts Timestop and goes to 
change the markers, only to discover they have already been changed by 
someone who had previously cast the same spell. He changes them again, then 
returns to his place in the queue. When the mark is read, however, it has 
been changed yet AGAIN by another timestopping wizard. All this occurs in 
under a second of real time. That sort of thing is tough to do without 
getting too specific (transform or change environment). Also, things like 
'stepping outside of time' to heal, or read a book on defusing bombs before 
trying to defuse the bomb, etc. Any *specific* effect or use of 
timestopping can easily be simulated, but actually having the power to stop 
time and then using it creatively cannot be. Perhaps this is for the best, 
as it's a bit of a gamebreaker... 
 
(This also gets into my idea of a 'stunt pool', a form of VPP used to 
simulate all those one-time-only tricks so common in comics) 
 
>L> Invisibility to a non-targetting sense ought to be a lot cheaper. A 
>L> vampire who leaves behind no scent shouldn't pay as much as one who can 
>L> move silently, who in turn should pay less than one who can't be seen at 
>L> all. 
> 
>"Smell" may be a non-targeting sense for a normal person, but it is for 
>many animals.  And those animals are used in this capacity. 
> 
Depending on the campaign, that may be important enough to keep the costs 
the same, or it may not.  
 
>L> There should be a way to summon specific individuals. Sorcerors call up 
>L> demons by name. The witches on 'Bewitched' could get Ben Franklin or Abe 
>L> Lincoln. 
> 
>The proscription against summoning specific individuals is more to prevent 
>characters from summoning their allies or enemies than anything else. 
> 
True, but making it an absolute (grin) limits the power unnecessarily for 
many genres. I'd say, "Can call a single specific being with GM's approval" 
a +1/2 advantage, "Can summon any specific being with GM's approval" a +1 
advantage. This allows for demon-summoning spells or more powerful 'portal' 
spells. (Dr. Strange is forver teleporting specific people to his lair) 
 
Or, you could by it with Teleport, Usable Against Others, HUMONGOUS 
increased range, linked to Mind Scan. That might work, but DAMN it would be 
expensive, even with appropriate genre limits like "Must have hair of 
target" or "Only to inscribed pentgram in my Tower Of Loneliness". 
 
And while I can't think of too many heroes who summoned their enemies into 
death traps, I can think of lots of times that Dr. Strange, Dr. Fate, etc 
would summon all their buddies to help them, usually to the great annoyance 
of said buddies. 
 
All of which leads to yet another meta-question:When the choice is between 
game balance and genre-authenticity, which wins? Hero tends to err on the 
side of game balance, which is good for beginning and intermediate GMs, but 
which can be unduly constraining for experiences GMs. (Who can always 
choose to simply ignore the rules -- I permit NND KAs when the situation 
calls for it, for example -- but then you end up inendless squabbles with 
rules lawyers.) 
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:44:32 -0800 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: [HS5] Re: Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:10 PM 12/30/97 -0500, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>I agree that certain things need clarification, but I don't think  
> 
>Lizard says: 
>>a) Serial Form 
> 
>What do you think that VPP, only change between adventures (or whenever) 
>doesn't handle well? 
> 
Attributes, skills, and even physcial limitations cannot be placed in a 
VPP. When 'Dial H For Hero' turns into Frosty The Killer Snowman, he gains 
a Physical Limit of Susceptibility to Fire, which he loses next week when 
he becomes Mr. Mental, Master Of Minds, who doesn't have any 
Susceptibilities but does have a bunch of amusing Psych lims. To do someone 
like that or the Sleeper, you need to be able to rewrite EVERYTHING, not 
just powers. 
 
(Perhaps a 'Disadvantage Pool'?) 
 
>It's normally handled as GM hand-waving. I've seen one GM who allowed 
>10% of the AP to be used VPP-like. So a 50-point 10d6 electric EB could 
>be used as a 5-point fire VPP. 
> 
I like that idea... 
 
>>Invisibility to a non-targeting sense ought to be a lot cheaper.  
>>There should be a way to summon specific individuals.  
> 
>Agreed. Summoning specific objects, too. 
> 
I always used Transform:Air to Whatever for that. If you want to summon 
someone's foci, that's a bit game unbalancing... 
 
From: "Roger A. Wesson, Jr." <uraeus@bunt.com> 
Subject: RE: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:50:16 +0100 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 Lizard wrote: 
>e)Small stunts:Super-speedsters cleaning their room in half a second. 
>(Cosmetic Transform) Stretching characters picking locks without lockpicks. 
>Etc. A VPP is often too flexible, and buying every stunt can be expensive. 
>Some form of 'power skill' system to stimulate these kind of one-time 
>'gimmicks' might be handy. 
 
  For this reason I lifted an idea from GURPS Supers.  Each power, or group of related powers, has a KS attached to it.  This skill is used to determine if  
the character can produce effects that require some control.  For minor 
effects that don't require as much skill, a bonus may be in order. 
  When a character is created they get a default skill of 8- for each power 
for free, they can then increase these skills at 2 CP for +1. 
 
   For Example: Spark Boy has a EC:Fire Powers and KS:Fire Powers of 10-. 
So, if SB wants to produce a flame on one finger to use as a lighter (an easy 
effect, +2) he would have to roll 12-.  On the other hand, if SB wanted to 
create the same flame, but also maintain it for a full phase AND keep it at 
a certain temperature he may have to roll 10- or even 9-. 
 
  For something like the lockpicking you mention, if the character makes his 
Stretching skill roll, I would give him a bonus to his Lockpicking skill , equal to 
+1 for every 3 points the character exceeded his Stretching skill by. 
  If the Char didn't have the Lockpicking skill to begin with, I might give him 
a temporary Lockpicking skill level equal to the bonus mentioned above. 
 
    
 
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:55:35 -0800 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:06 PM 12/30/97 -0500, David Fair wrote: 
>h) Transform needs one more level, Complete Transform (20 pts per die)  
>for those transforms that are, um, well, more Complete than a Major  
>transform. For Example, Blindness is a Major Transform, currently so is  
>"Turn to Dust" although the blindness is far less limiting that being  
>turned into dust. 
 
Another way to do this and similair effects is to buy an NND KA (I know, 
not permitted) for a +2 Advantage, and then limit it with "All Or Nothing" 
(-1/2?) and 'Does No Stun', which basically means the KA does no damage 
UNLESS it does a total of 2*Body, in which case, it kills according to the 
SFX. This is useful for "Heart stealing" powers, transform-to-dust, 
transform-to-ice-and-then-melt-the-ice-and-then-pour-the-water-into-the-ocea 
n, etc. Right now, Major Transform with cumulative effect is the rough 
equivalent of an NND KA, and I'm not sure that's cost-balanced. Your 
average KA leaves a body, after all, which is usually a prerequisite for 
resurrection. 
 
Another thing to look at in 5th Ed would be the partial effects of a 
Cumulative Transform. 
 
Another Transform question -- can you target foci with Transform? 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Re: [HS5] Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:04:09 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>What do you think that VPP, only change between adventures (or 
whenever) 
>>doesn't handle well? 
>Attributes, skills, and even physical limitations cannot be placed in a 
>VPP.  
 
Yes they can. Characteristics and Skills are listed in the power list, 
and can be treated as powers with GM permission. As for disads, a 
limitation on the VPP (about even with Side Effect) can do it. 
 
>>>There should be a way to summon specific individuals.  
>>Agreed. Summoning specific objects, too. 
>I always used Transform:Air to Whatever for that. If you want to summon 
>someone's foci, that's a bit game unbalancing... 
 
I've never liked air-to-gizmo. There's always a chance of a bad roll. If 
I want to keep my gun in a pocket dimension and summon it when I need 
it, I'd like to be able to do so.  
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:05:05 -0800 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:26 PM 12/30/97 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
>HERO handles this about as well as any other game system on the market. I 
>mean, what game system expects you to totally re-write your character every 
>game session? Aside from Call of Cthulhu...:-). 
> 
Paranoia. :) 
 
>But you _can_ do it in Champs terms. Take the 0-point 'normal', give him a 
>180 point VPP, with the VPPControl Limitation "Change Only Between Sessions" 
>(-1/2), and "Only in Hero ID" (VPPControl Cost = 51 points), and you've got 
>250 - 180 - 51 = 19 points. And it's not hard to convince the GM to allow 
>variable Disadvantages (i.e. always has 40 points worth of Psych Lims, 20 
>worth of Vulnerabilities, etc.). 
> 
Could work. It's the "Variable Disad Pool" which I always saw as a 
stumbling block, but, as you say, it's a GM issue. You also seperate out 
'character' disads from 'form' disads, i.e, Sleeper ALWAYS has the Disad 
"Speed Addict", but his various forms can have additional disads relevant 
to their powers. 
 
 
>>d)Shapeshifting (see current thread), especially the high-powered Chameleon 
>>Boy kind of shapeshifting. (He once gained Desolid by shapeshifting) 
> 
>Not busted. Not difficult. Just expensive, and rightly so. 
> 
VERY Expensive, to truly simulate what the 'big league' shapeshifters can 
do. But given that level of flexibility, perhaps justifiably expensive. 
 
 
>>f)Time control -- it's virtually impossible to 'stop time' in Hero, or, for 
>>that matter, speed it up. You can buy a lot of different powers with a 
>>'time control' effect, but in theory, all possible effects of stopping time 
>>should happen 'at once'.  
> 
>Time Stopping should be as expensive as a large AE Major Transform, b/c it's 
>pretty much an unstoppable license to kill. Just say no to cheap Time Stops. 
>If you can't affect the time stopped world, it's Extra-Dimensional Movement, 
>perhaps with some Transdimensional Clairsentience (to go and read that 
>newspaper that guy is holding). 
> 
Limited effects. You can't harm somone directly, but you can pick them up 
and move them, or pick their pockets...mebbe a Cosmic VPP with all powers 
having to be bought to 0 phase actions (Is that in 4th Ed? It was an 
advantage to spells in original Fantasy Hero...sigh. I've played so many 
versions of Hero I forget what you can and can't do anymore unless I have 
my books handy...), and you have to explain to the GM how you're 
timestopping power let's you do whatever it is you did. 
 
>THERE IS! BBB page 85: "Summon should only be used to summon a type or class 
>of a creature, not a specific one, except with special GM permission." 
> 
>Why does everybody miss this "except" part? 
> 
I dunno, but I'd increase the cost slightly if the individual was 
particularly useful in non-point-based-ways. (That is, some 25 point 
normals are less equal than others) 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:09:23 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>I was thinking of a +1/4 advantage on certain skills:"Does not need 
tools". 
>There are a number of skills which a suitably-powered character can use 
>without external tools. 
 
That's only a 1 or 2 point advantage. Don't you think it should be a 
little more expensive?  
 
You could always buy +5 to all non-combat skills, only to compensate for 
lack of equipment (-2). I sometimes do a similar trick for speedsters to 
compensate for time penalties. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 97 15:26:22 -0500 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 12/30/97 2:26 PM, John and Ron Prins (jprins@interhop.net) Said: 
 
>what game system expects you to totally re-write your character every 
>game session? Aside from Call of Cthulhu...:-). 
 
mmmm, Paranoia? 
 
                                         |  David A. Fair 
        Think Different                  |  SDS International 
                                         |  dfair@sdslink.com 
 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:57:50 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
 
> >I was thinking of a +1/4 advantage on certain skills:"Does not need 
> tools". 
> >There are a number of skills which a suitably-powered character can use 
> >without external tools. 
>  
> That's only a 1 or 2 point advantage. Don't you think it should be a 
> little more expensive?  
>  
> You could always buy +5 to all non-combat skills, only to compensate for 
> lack of equipment (-2). I sometimes do a similar trick for speedsters to 
> compensate for time penalties. 
>  
 
I prefer to handle the whole thing as a special effects issue, as it will 
invariable become one anyway. Some skills require tools some times and not 
others, and the tools themselves can vary tremendously in their rarity. A 
Paramedic roll might be a Heimlich maneuver, a tourniquet made with a 
strip of cloth, or the injection of rare and specialized drugs. The 
advantage approach will work with many skills that are defined as not 
needing tools due to SFX (e.g. a computer programming skill defined as 
control over electrical impulses), but the price of such an advantage 
could become questionable with skills where tools are often only a minor 
consideration. 
 
 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:04:13 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Future Ultimate books? (humour) 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:41 AM 12/30/97 -0600, Don McKinney wrote: 
 
>II.	Halflings 
>	a.	"circular metal band"-type Halflings 
>	b.	"elven"-like Halfings 
>	c.	"dwarven"-like Halflings 
>	d.	"human"-like Halflings 
>	e.	Kender 
 
for the last time, kender are NOT haflings! *yeesh* 
wait, did i mean 'first time' then? eh!  
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:19:45 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:39 AM 12/30/97 -0800, Lizard wrote: 
>>L> c)Immunity/invulerability:I know this is a major 'stop sign' power, but 
>>L> there's no real way to make someone who cannot be harmed by a specific 
>>L> special effect, such as a Fire Elemental who is simply immune to any flame 
>>L> based attacks. 
>> 
>>This is a big no-no in Hero.  There are no absolute attacks or defenses. 
>> 
>I know, and generally, I like it -- but isn't "No absolutes" itself an 
>absolute? :) The superhero genre is *rife* with absolutes. And there 
>already is a limited form of invulnerablity -- it's called Desolid.  
> 
 
as well as just bying a huge force field. . .i mean juggy used to be  
'indestructable', until hulky got that celestrial horsepower boost. . . 
 
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:20:08 -0800 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: Future Ultimate books? (humour) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:04 AM 12/31/97 +1000, happyelf wrote: 
 
> 
>for the last time, kender are NOT haflings! *yeesh* 
>wait, did i mean 'first time' then? eh!  
> 
Kender are halflings magically transformed out of fear of violating the 
dreaded K'hopee Rites. 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:24:38 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:56 PM 12/30/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>L> a)Serial Form:This is the character who goes through a process of total 
>L> bodily (and sometimes mental) transformation from adventure to adventure, 
>L> but who cannot change at will or (usually) control his incarnation. 
> 
>Also known as "Guest Star".  The VPP works reasonably well.  You just need 
>a GM that will allow a player to do it, because this kind of character can 
>be immensely unbalancing. 
 
   I think what was intended here was something like the "Regeneration" in 
Doctor Who, where the lead character becomes someone rather different every 
so often. 
 
>L> b)Slipperiness, or other movement-impairing powers (Drain running doesn't 
>L> really cut it) 
> 
>I am partial to an extension to Change Environment, giving it degrees of 
>effect similar to Transformation. 
 
   I have yet to see if my method of doing Slipperiness (or, as I call it, 
Slick) with Transform passes muster with Bruce.  (Steven has already said 
he prefers the Change Environment approach, but I think Bruce has more sway 
over the final ruling.) 
 
>L> c)Immunity/invulerability:I know this is a major 'stop sign' power, but 
>L> there's no real way to make someone who cannot be harmed by a specific 
>L> special effect, such as a Fire Elemental who is simply immune to any flame 
>L> based attacks. 
> 
>This is a big no-no in Hero.  There are no absolute attacks or defenses. 
 
   Well, Desolidification does provide absolute defense against most 
attacks (that is, all except those of a certain Special Effect).  Narrowing 
down the effect for this to only provide defense against a certain Special 
Effect might do the trick for this. 
 
>L> d)Shapeshifting (see current thread), especially the high-powered 
>L> Chameleon Boy kind of shapeshifting. (He once gained Desolid by 
>L> shapeshifting) 
> 
>Buy a framework with the "extra" abilities, with "shapeshift" as the 
>special effect. 
 
   I'm with you on this one.  (VPP is usually best.) 
 
>L> f)Time control -- it's virtually impossible to 'stop time' in Hero, or, 
>L> for that matter, speed it up. 
> 
>As well it should be.  If you want to "go faster" (read: act more 
>frequently in a Turn) buy more Speed.  Anything more than that is an 
>absolute, which violates one of the core premises of Champions mechanics. 
 
   I think I've mentioned this recently, but... I do allow XDM to a 
dimension called "StillTime," which is the same as the current dimension 
except that everything except those in StillTime is frozen in time.  Of 
course, to affect anything in the real world, the character has to have 
Indirect and Transdimensional on whatever he's using (usually STR), though 
these Advantages could be bought "Only in StillTime." 
   That's a very sketchy description, but I think it could work. 
 
>L> Invisibility to a non-targetting sense ought to be a lot cheaper. A 
>L> vampire who leaves behind no scent shouldn't pay as much as one who can 
>L> move silently, who in turn should pay less than one who can't be seen at 
>L> all. 
> 
>"Smell" may be a non-targeting sense for a normal person, but it is for 
>many animals.  And those animals are used in this capacity. 
 
   I don't think "Smell" is a Targeting Sense for any real-world animal -- 
at least, not if I understand what a Targeting Sense is in Hero terms. 
Now, Tracking Scent is another matter, of course. 
 
>L> There should be a way to summon specific individuals. Sorcerors call up 
>L> demons by name. The witches on 'Bewitched' could get Ben Franklin or Abe 
>L> Lincoln. 
> 
>The proscription against summoning specific individuals is more to prevent 
>characters from summoning their allies or enemies than anything else. 
 
   I see no reason why this shouldn't be allowed, if the character in 
question is willing to spend the points for it. 
   This is something I specifically do in one of the spells in the College 
of Summoning, one of the Fantasy Hero Spell Colleges on my Hero Stuff Page. 
 The Spell has the ability to Summon a specific person who is indebted to 
the Conjurer.  (As a side note, the Summoned individual gets a number of 
points as a Disadvantage equal to the real points that the Conjurer spends 
on the Spell.)  As usual, of course, getting the Summoned individual to 
cooperate with the Summoner is a whole different matter, and he may not 
even be properly equipped for the situation at hand ("Hey!  I was in the 
middle of a bath!"). 
 
>L> (Which brings up another point -- can you buy Summoning with 
>L> Transdimensional to Summon beings from different times?) 
> 
>Maybe... depends on the special effects. 
 
   The real question, I think, is, "Would you *need* to put 
Transdimensional on Summon to Summon beings from different times, like a 
dinosaur, a Roman soldier, or a futuristic robocop?" 
   I'd say no; Summon is Summon.  If you're Summoning a specific 
individual, well then maybe, but generally no. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:27:29 +1000 
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: RE: [HS5]Powers/Concepts/power stunts 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:50 PM 12/30/97 +0100, Roger A. Wesson, Jr. wrote: 
> Lizard wrote: 
>>e)Small stunts:Super-speedsters cleaning their room in half a second. 
>>(Cosmetic Transform) Stretching characters picking locks without lockpicks. 
>>Etc. A VPP is often too flexible, and buying every stunt can be expensive. 
>>Some form of 'power skill' system to stimulate these kind of one-time 
>>'gimmicks' might be handy. 
> 
>  For this reason I lifted an idea from GURPS Supers.  Each power, or group of related powers, has a KS attached to it.  This skill is used to determine if  
>the character can produce effects that require some control.  For minor 
>effects that don't require as much skill, a bonus may be in order. 
>  When a character is created they get a default skill of 8- for each power 
>for free, they can then increase these skills at 2 CP for +1. 
> 
 
 
I did something simmilar- a talent, with the same points/roll-stuff as  
find weakness, which can be used to do minor 'power stunts' with various 
powers.  
 
 
 
 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:31:58 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: [HS5] Re: Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:44 AM 12/30/97 -0800, Lizard wrote: 
>At 02:10 PM 12/30/97 -0500, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>>I agree that certain things need clarification, but I don't think  
>> 
>>Lizard says: 
>>>a) Serial Form 
>> 
>>What do you think that VPP, only change between adventures (or whenever) 
>>doesn't handle well? 
>> 
>Attributes, skills, and even physcial limitations cannot be placed in a 
>VPP. When 'Dial H For Hero' turns into Frosty The Killer Snowman, he gains 
>a Physical Limit of Susceptibility to Fire, which he loses next week when 
>he becomes Mr. Mental, Master Of Minds, who doesn't have any 
>Susceptibilities but does have a bunch of amusing Psych lims. To do someone 
>like that or the Sleeper, you need to be able to rewrite EVERYTHING, not 
>just powers. 
> 
>(Perhaps a 'Disadvantage Pool'?) 
> 
 
yeah, so? you can place specials in a vpp with gm ok, and you can  
swop disads around pretty much at will, again with gm approval.  
 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:54:53 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: rolling stats?!? 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I hit upon a simple method which might be fun for a change in  
character creation. Give the pc's the option of rolling dice  
for a stat instead of bying it. . basically, work out the dice  
so they spend enough to get a certain number in a stat, but use  
a dice roll which allows a 50% chance of getting less than their  
points worth.  
 
For example, they could speand enough to get 5 points in a primary  
stat, then roll a d8, and adding the result to the stat.  
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:01:24 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: alternative to stun lotto 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I thought of a possible alternative to the stun lotto, though it might be 
more trouble than it's worth. Basically, roll the kill dice and collate  
'body' like you do with normal damage- i.e. number of dice,  +1 for each  
6, -1 for each 1. Take this number and multiply by three, plus any stun  
multiple bonuses.(even though they're not balanced properly for this  
method,that's the bit that doesn't work) 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Units of Measure 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:47:58 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tuesday, December 30, 1997 5:44 AM, bobby farris wrote: 
 
 
>This I guess if for Mark @GRG more than anyone else, but could we 
have 
>an update of the Hero system units of measure. Lets get rid of inches 
>and and the Metric system. 
> The inches are just plain annoying and I see no reason to convert 
from 
>them to feet or meters when it would just be simple to use straight 
feet 
>or meters. 
> Also the Metric system was a great idea, but people didn't switch 
over 
>so, (asking the apology of our non-American players and readers) lets 
go 
>back to good old Feet, Yards, and Pounds. 
 
As an American, _no_. I definitely don't like this idea. Getting rid 
of inches means completely revamping the combat system. 
 
As for trading in the metric system for the American system, why go 
backwards in one, admittedly small, area where progress was made? I, 
for one, would rather see the American system replaced whole hog for 
the metric system, even if I had never used the metric system before. 
The present system is a confusing mishmash, is never used in places 
where truly accurate measurements are required (science), and is one 
of the only things where we are still behind the rest of the world. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:12:18 -0800 
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell) 
Subject: Re: rolling stats?!? 
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
-> From jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au Tue Dec 30 15:49:36 1997 
->  
-> I hit upon a simple method which might be fun for a change in  
-> character creation. Give the pc's the option of rolling dice  
-> for a stat instead of bying it. . basically, work out the dice  
-> so they spend enough to get a certain number in a stat, but use  
-> a dice roll which allows a 50% chance of getting less than their  
-> points worth.  
->  
-> For example, they could speand enough to get 5 points in a primary  
-> stat, then roll a d8, and adding the result to the stat.  
->  
 
d8 has an average of 4.5, not 5. 2d6-2 would give you an average of 5. 
You might have better luck if you offer a choice: either 5pts or a d10. 
All in all, I don't think this would work very well in a Champions game, 
but it might be appropriate for character creation in a Fantasy Hero 
game. (My current campaign called "Arduin Hero" has the players roll 
the intial character stats). 
 
							-Sam 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:27:10 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: rolling stats?!? 
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At 05:12 PM 12/30/97 -0800, Sam Bell wrote: 
> 
>-> From jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au Tue Dec 30 15:49:36 1997 
>->  
>-> I hit upon a simple method which might be fun for a change in  
>-> character creation. Give the pc's the option of rolling dice  
>-> for a stat instead of bying it. . basically, work out the dice  
>-> so they spend enough to get a certain number in a stat, but use  
>-> a dice roll which allows a 50% chance of getting less than their  
>-> points worth.  
>->  
>-> For example, they could speand enough to get 5 points in a primary  
>-> stat, then roll a d8, and adding the result to the stat.  
>->  
> 
>d8 has an average of 4.5, not 5. 2d6-2 would give you an average of 5. 
>You might have better luck if you offer a choice: either 5pts or a d10. 
>All in all, I don't think this would work very well in a Champions game, 
>but it might be appropriate for character creation in a Fantasy Hero 
>game. (My current campaign called "Arduin Hero" has the players roll 
>the intial character stats). 
> 
>							-Sam 
> 
 
no, you mised my note. 1,2,3,4 is half of a d8, as is 5,6,7,8.  
hence, when you roll, on a 1,2,3,4 you get less than your points worth,  
on a 5,6,7,8 yopu get your points worth or more.  
i'm not looking for a bell curve, and in fact a single dice  
can't really have an average of probability anyway.  
And I used it in a champions game- each player was required  
to speand points on d8's for each of the primary stats they didn't 
have at a superhuman level, to represent 'normal stats'.    
 
 
 
 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:31:48 -0800 
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com> 
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>I thought of a possible alternative to the stun lotto, though it might >be 
>more trouble than it's worth. Basically, roll the kill dice and collate  
>'body' like you do with normal damage- i.e. number of dice,  +1 for each  
>6, -1 for each 1. Take this number and multiply by three, plus any stun  
>multiple bonuses.(even though they're not balanced properly for this  
>method,that's the bit that doesn't work) 
 
 
Using this method you will never do any stun with a killing attack 
Example: 4d6 killing attack 
The roll 6,6,6,6 
The "body" 8pts,  
times 3 = 24 stun 
And thats the maximum you can roll on 4d6 killing. 
 
If you were to use a multiple of 9 you would aproximate the average stun 
done by the "standard" killing attack, the problem then becomes that 
there are only 9 stun results (at 4d6 killing) 
Stun	% chance 
0		00.617% 
9		4.32% 
18		11.72% 
27		20.987% 
36		24.69% 
45		20.987% 
54		11.72% 
63		4.32% 
72		00.617% 
Assuming 30 defences an average of 9.12 stun will penetrate defences. 
(compare with 12.04 stun for a 12d6 normal attack or 13.43 for a 4d6 
killing attack) 
 
Pro's: 	cut's down on very high stun rolls 
		makes killing stun confirm to a bell curve 
		makes killing attacks do less stun then normal attacks 
 
Con's 	Slightly more difficult than the standard method 
		very limited number of stun results (9 total) 
 
Coming soon an idea I had about changing the way killing stun is rolled 
(Just as soon as I finish the math on it) 
 
Max "I must remember to say standard, not normal when reffering to by 
the book killing attacks" Callahan 
mcallahan@home.com 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:32:36 -0800 
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On Tuesday, December 30, 1997 9:31 AM, Lizard wrote: 
 
 
>I would like to start a *civilized* discussion on the 
powers/conceptions 
>Hero doesn't presently handle very well, as a guideline for potential 
new 
>powers/advantages/limitations/frameworks in HS5. 
> 
>a)Serial Form:This is the character who goes through a process of 
total 
>bodily (and sometimes mental) transformation from adventure to 
adventure, 
>but who cannot change at will or (usually) control his incarnation. 
>Examples include 'Dial H For Hero', the Sleeper from Wild Cards, and 
>(somewhat) the Molecule Man (he used to possess bodies until he 
learned to 
>make one for himself). (To do it with a VPP would mean all the 
characters 
>physical attributes, including figured, would need to be bought 
through the 
>VPP. Also skills and sometimes perks.) 
 
 
Needs to be rewritten. No ideas yet, but I'll think about it. 
 
>b)Slipperiness, or other movement-impairing powers (Drain running 
doesn't 
>really cut it) 
 
 
_If_ you use the Negative Characteristic rules, it works pretty well. 
Otherwise, you are right, it can't be properly represented. 
 
>c)Immunity/invulerability:I know this is a major 'stop sign' power, 
but 
>there's no real way to make someone who cannot be harmed by a 
specific 
>special effect, such as a Fire Elemental who is simply immune to any 
flame 
>based attacks. Yes, you can buy Damage Reduction (Only vs. flame) and 
>armor/ED(Only vs. flame) and get a similair effect. Superhero and 
fantasy 
>genres both have characters who 'cannot be harmed' by any means 
except 
>(kryptonite/cold iron/the tears of a maiden/etc) 
 
 
For absolute invulnerability to a single effect, massive defenses may 
be the best way to go. Most beings supposedly invulnerable to a 
particular effect can be harmed by a being whose control over/power 
within the effect surpasses their own. Even if they are supposed to be 
truly invulnerable, this is a very potent power, and should cost as 
much as it does. 
 
As far as the beings invulnerable to anything except X, those can be 
written up with the Spirit Rules. I recommend keeping these, adjusted 
and tweaked, possibly with the inclusion of the entire Incomplete 
rules. 
 
>d)Shapeshifting (see current thread), especially the high-powered 
Chameleon 
>Boy kind of shapeshifting. (He once gained Desolid by shapeshifting) 
 
 
This is the same as a). The problems are closely related, and should 
be corrected with a revamping of Shapeshifting. No ideas yet, save 
possibly that Transformation, Shapeshifting, and possibly Multiform 
should be merged into a  single power. 
 
>e)Small stunts:Super-speedsters cleaning their room in half a second. 
>(Cosmetic Transform) Stretching characters picking locks without 
lockpicks. 
>Etc. A VPP is often too flexible, and buying every stunt can be 
expensive. 
>Some form of 'power skill' system to stimulate these kind of one-time 
>'gimmicks' might be handy. 
 
 
Not all of these require a new power. Cleaning a room super fast is a 
Change Environment. Not all Change Environments should revert to the 
original state when turned off. 
 
>f)Time control -- it's virtually impossible to 'stop time' in Hero, 
or, for 
>that matter, speed it up. You can buy a lot of different powers with 
a 
>'time control' effect, but in theory, all possible effects of 
stopping time 
>should happen 'at once'. 
 
 
The power to 'stop time' is defined in so many different ways in 
different genres that it is difficult to properly simulate. I don't 
see an easy solution to this one, but a few ideas might be a good 
idea. 
 
>And a few minor points... 
> 
>Invisibility to a non-targetting sense ought to be a lot cheaper. A 
vampire 
>who leaves behind no scent shouldn't pay as much as one who can move 
>silently, who in turn should pay less than one who can't be seen at 
all. 
 
 
Good idea. Make sure it adds costs for both Targeting and 
Discriminatory senses. Remember, since any sense could be a targeting 
or discriminatory sense, there should be a clause pointing out that 
any sense that is commonly either one in your campaing has to pay the 
extra fee. 
 
>There should be a way to summon specific individuals. Sorcerors call 
up 
>demons by name. The witches on 'Bewitched' could get Ben Franklin or 
Abe 
>Lincoln. (Which brings up another point -- can you buy Summoning with 
>Transdimensional to Summon beings from different times?) 
 
 
Using that power, a more expensive version, to be sure, should allow 
Summoning individuals. Otherwise, it is extremely complex and 
expensive to Summon an individual, far more trouble than it should be. 
 
>Let the flames....begin! 
 
Flames are not appropriate. Surely we can have a civil discussion on 
this subject. 
 
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 30 Dec 1997 21:03:26 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
BG>    I think what was intended here was something like the "Regeneration" 
BG> in Doctor Who, where the lead character becomes someone rather 
BG> different every so often. 
 
That is just a "radiation accident".  What is intended is a character that 
changes more frequently. 
 
[...] 
 
BG>    I have yet to see if my method of doing Slipperiness (or, as I call 
BG> it, Slick) with Transform passes muster with Bruce.  (Steven has 
BG> already said he prefers the Change Environment approach, but I think 
BG> Bruce has more sway over the final ruling.) 
 
Probably... Transformation has the problem that the durability of the thing 
being affected has a direct impact on the degree of effect.  This should 
not be the case. 
 
[...] 
 
>> This is a big no-no in Hero.  There are no absolute attacks or defenses. 
 
BG>    Well, Desolidification does provide absolute defense against most 
BG> attacks (that is, all except those of a certain Special Effect). 
BG> Narrowing down the effect for this to only provide defense against a 
BG> certain Special Effect might do the trick for this. 
 
Except for all the baggage that goes along with Desolidification.  Yes, it 
provides the closest thing to an absoute defense in Hero that one can 
achieve... it also prevents one from retaliating. 
 
[...] 
 
>> As well it should be.  If you want to "go faster" (read: act more 
>> frequently in a Turn) buy more Speed.  Anything more than that is an 
>> absolute, which violates one of the core premises of Champions mechanics. 
 
BG>    I think I've mentioned this recently, but... I do allow XDM to a 
BG> dimension called "StillTime," which is the same as the current 
BG> dimension except that everything except those in StillTime is frozen in 
BG> time.  Of course, to affect anything in the real world, the character 
BG> has to have Indirect and Transdimensional on whatever he's using 
BG> (usually STR), though these Advantages could be bought "Only in 
BG> StillTime." 
BG>    That's a very sketchy description, but I think it could work. 
 
I still have a problem with it, mostly because I have problems with "time 
travel" in general.  The Universe does not like paradox.  Besides, if 
something is temporally "frozen", how can you affect it?  Any effect has a 
duration, but for a thing thus frozen no time elapses thus no time for a 
cause to have an effect. 
 
The ability to "step out" for a moment would be Extradimensional Movement. 
However, I would stomp down hard on any attempt to use this as a means of 
obtaining more attack actions per "real time" Turn than a character 
normally has.  That is *not* in keeping with the genre, it is cheating. 
 
[...] 
 
>> "Smell" may be a non-targeting sense for a normal person, but it is for 
>> many animals.  And those animals are used in this capacity. 
 
BG>    I don't think "Smell" is a Targeting Sense for any real-world animal -- 
BG> at least, not if I understand what a Targeting Sense is in Hero terms. 
 
Sharks come to mind. 
 
[...] 
 
>> The proscription against summoning specific individuals is more to prevent 
>> characters from summoning their allies or enemies than anything else. 
 
BG>    I see no reason why this shouldn't be allowed, if the character in 
BG> question is willing to spend the points for it. 
 
Because it puts a character in a position of being able to either bypass an 
enemy's defenses or circumvent the necessity of an ally having to purchase 
relevant movement powers. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:27:32 -0800 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tuesday, December 30, 1997 10:16 AM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> 
>>>>>> "RGS" == Richard G Schwerdtfeger <RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com> 
>>>>>> writes: 
> 
>RGS>      So with "your" version, if I have a 30 STR and a 2D6 HA (a 
billy 
>RGS>      club), I can only do 4D6 damage when using it, as opposed 
to the 
>RGS>      standard 8D6? Are they limited to double the DCs using STR, 
like HKA 
>RGS>      are? 
> 
>4D6, and yes.  "My" HA works *exactly* like HKA with the exception 
that the 
>damage is "normal" instead of "killing". 
 
 
Which means that it will become the latest underused power in 
Champions. People who are at all concerned with points will avoid it 
like the plague, since they can either buy Strength or Energy Blast, 
with greater utility and value for points. 
 
Please don't tell me that people will only be able to buy those if 
they fit the concept. Ignoring the fact that a) people can adjust 
concepts, particularly in Champions, to easily cover one or the other, 
and b) this simply reduces the number of characters built to a 
particular concept (such as Stretching), this is a cop-out. If it is 
readily replaced with cheaper or more useful abilities, then no one 
will buy it and it isn't balanced. 
 
RKA is more effective than EB, but makes up for it by being a "Beam" 
power, unable to spread (bounce used to be a EB only ability, but 
isn't any more). HKA gets the increased effectiveness, and trades 
range (and, by default, spreading) for adding to STR. Your HA gets 
only the two limitations of HKA, without the benefit of the increased 
effectiveness of a Killing Attack. It isn't balanced. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:16:01 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
> L> a)Serial Form:This is the character who goes through a process of total 
> L> bodily (and sometimes mental) transformation from adventure to adventure, 
> L> but who cannot change at will or (usually) control his incarnation. 
> 
> Also known as "Guest Star".  The VPP works reasonably well.  You just need 
> a GM that will allow a player to do it, because this kind of character can 
> be immensely unbalancing. 
 
	And possibly either very expensive or very underpowered.  Both 
fine for a character with this much versatility. 
 
> L> b)Slipperiness, or other movement-impairing powers (Drain running doesn't 
> L> really cut it) 
> 
> I am partial to an extension to Change Environment, giving it degrees of 
> effect similar to Transformation. 
 
	Yes.  If they make one change to the rules it should be to add a 
multi-level CE.  And to include my Stun Mutiple Varient as an optional 
rule.  <g> 
 
> L> c)Immunity/invulerability:I know this is a major 'stop sign' power, but 
> L> there's no real way to make someone who cannot be harmed by a specific 
> L> special effect, such as a Fire Elemental who is simply immune to any flame 
> L> based attacks. 
> 
> This is a big no-no in Hero.  There are no absolute attacks or defenses. 
 
	This  attitude needs to change.  Hero is supposed to be able to 
simulate everything, not *many things* like GURPS.  Add a 100% level on 
damage reduction, make it expensive, and put huge warnings to GMs in 
there.  Huge warnings. 
 
> L> d)Shapeshifting (see current thread), especially the high-powered 
> L> Chameleon Boy kind of shapeshifting. (He once gained Desolid by 
> L> shapeshifting) 
> 
> Buy a framework with the "extra" abilities, with "shapeshift" as the 
> special effect. 
 
	Easy one, yeah. 
 
> L> e)Small stunts:Super-speedsters cleaning their room in half a second. 
> L> (Cosmetic Transform) 
> 
> Change Environment. 
 
	Yup. 
 
> L> Stretching characters picking locks without lockpicks. 
> 
> Special effect... although technically that should require Shapeshift, 
> something that many stretching characters should have. 
 
	I'd still require the skill, but the character wouldn't get any 
penalties for not having picks. 
 
 
> L> f)Time control -- it's virtually impossible to 'stop time' in Hero, or, 
> L> for that matter, speed it up. 
> 
> As well it should be.  If you want to "go faster" (read: act more 
> frequently in a Turn) buy more Speed.  Anything more than that is an 
> absolute, which violates one of the core premises of Champions mechanics. 
 
	While I think absolutes need to be reconsidered, Time Stop powers 
are just too much.  I could see them only as a plot device feature. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:18:31 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> h) Transform needs one more level, Complete Transform (20 pts per die) 
> for those transforms that are, um, well, more Complete than a Major 
> transform. For Example, Blindness is a Major Transform, currently so is 
> "Turn to Dust" although the blindness is far less limiting that being 
> turned into dust. 
 
 
	But there is no point.  This is only as powerful as a KA.  Both 
have the effect of death.  15 pts is balanced. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:28:17 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> >I was thinking of a +1/4 advantage on certain skills:"Does not need 
> tools". 
> >There are a number of skills which a suitably-powered character can use 
> >without external tools. 
> 
> That's only a 1 or 2 point advantage. Don't you think it should be a 
> little more expensive? 
 
	Not at all.  You paid for a shapeshift power that would do this 
sort of thing.  You've paid for tools already.  You just need the skill. 
 
> 
> You could always buy +5 to all non-combat skills, only to compensate for 
> lack of equipment (-2). I sometimes do a similar trick for speedsters to 
> compensate for time penalties. 
 
	Good for speedsters, actually. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:29:41 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: [HS5] Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> >>>There should be a way to summon specific individuals. 
> >>Agreed. Summoning specific objects, too. 
> >I always used Transform:Air to Whatever for that. If you want to summon 
> >someone's foci, that's a bit game unbalancing... 
> 
> I've never liked air-to-gizmo. There's always a chance of a bad roll. If 
> I want to keep my gun in a pocket dimension and summon it when I need 
> it, I'd like to be able to do so. 
 
 
	Then just buy the power you want the item to provide.  Don't ask 
for a focus limitation, however. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:36:20 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
	O.K. 
 
	You shot Happyelf's Stun Multiple change down.  Now what about 
mine that I posted a few days back. 
 
	I wish there would be some more commentary on it,; I'd 
particularly like to see the probabilities worked out. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:55:58 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Why not the old trusty 3d6 take the middle method? 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:17:16 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:36 PM 12/30/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>	O.K. 
> 
>	You shot Happyelf's Stun Multiple change down.   
 
"You shot who in the what now?" *l* 
 
Seriously, I've just been collecting my thoughs about the  
stun lotto thing, and it occurs to me that having a limited number 
of possible results is no more limiting than it is to have the same  
thing for a normal attack- mostly prevelant in a low-dice situation  
either way. All things considered, i really *hate* having to roll  
an extra dice for kill attacks, especially since they hurt so bad *g*. 
 
another option i though of would be to use the '6's and '1's rolled to  
modify the stun multiplyer as well as the base 'body' result. There 
you still be, for instance  possible outcomes on 4d6, but the number  
range would be more expansive. . .  
 
>Now what about 
>mine that I posted a few days back. 
> 
>	I wish there would be some more commentary on it,; I'd 
>particularly like to see the probabilities worked out. 
> 
 
Hmmm, musta missd that. . .  
 
 
>			-Tim Gilberg 
 
At 09:55 PM 12/30/97 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote: 
>Why not the old trusty 3d6 take the middle method? 
 
whu, um, huh? I take it ya had ta be there?  
 
And besides, you still have to roll another dice! *argh* 
 
 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:25:06 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified) 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>HERO handles this about as well as any other game system on the market. I 
>>mean, what game system expects you to totally re-write your character every 
>>game session? Aside from Call of Cthulhu...:-). 
>> 
>Paranoia. :) 
 
Well, you gotta be really bad at it to go through 5 clones in one session. 
 
>>But you _can_ do it in Champs terms. Take the 0-point 'normal', give him a 
>>180 point VPP, with the VPPControl Limitation "Change Only Between Sessions" 
>>(-1/2), and "Only in Hero ID" (VPPControl Cost = 51 points), and you've got 
>>250 - 180 - 51 = 19 points. And it's not hard to convince the GM to allow 
>>variable Disadvantages (i.e. always has 40 points worth of Psych Lims, 20 
>>worth of Vulnerabilities, etc.). 
>> 
>Could work. It's the "Variable Disad Pool" which I always saw as a 
>stumbling block, but, as you say, it's a GM issue. You also seperate out 
>'character' disads from 'form' disads, i.e, Sleeper ALWAYS has the Disad 
>"Speed Addict", but his various forms can have additional disads relevant 
>to their powers. 
 
Easy. Grab what disads you can for the 'base' form, then slap on a big'old 
"Mystery Disads" worth 100-odd points. GMs love those :-). 
 
>>>f)Time control -- it's virtually impossible to 'stop time' in Hero, or, for 
 
>>Time Stopping should be as expensive as a large AE Major Transform, b/c it's 
>>pretty much an unstoppable license to kill. 
 
>Limited effects. You can't harm somone directly, but you can pick them up 
>and move them, or pick their pockets...mebbe a Cosmic VPP with all powers 
 
Well, by my reasoning, if you can pick somebody up, you can kill them. Carry 
over to large drop, un-stop time, buh-bye. I'd do XDM Time Stops as the 
character living 'in a world of immovable, indestructible objects', where 
he's a ghost that can look around. Might as well use Clairsentience and 
Speed Reading to simulate that effect. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:25:44 -0800 
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com> 
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>        O.K. 
> 
>        You shot Happyelf's Stun Multiple change down.  Now what about 
>mine that I posted a few days back. 
> 
>        I wish there would be some more commentary on it,; I'd 
>particularly like to see the probabilities worked out. 
> 
>                        -Tim Gilberg 
 
I have to admit i missed it, if you repost it I would be quite happy to 
crunch the numbers for it's probabilities. 
 
mcallahan@home.com 
 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: Knockback Fun 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:41:15 -0500 
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I earlier broached the subject of long-distance Knockbacks of the 
sort so common in four-color comics.  Such Knockbacks needn't always 
put a character temporarily out of a fight, with a character having 
no chance to save himself.  It's important to remember that with a 
mighty Knockback or throw or even a fall from a great height, it 
takes time before the character finally lands--time that can be put 
to creative use. 
 
Flight is the obvious way to counter a country-mile Knockback.  Aside 
from slowing himself by applying his flight power opposite the 
direction of Knockback, a more interesting tactic is to apply 
propulsion perpendicular to the direction of Knockback, 
"slingshotting" himself around into the opposite direction without 
losing much speed (rather like a spacecraft using a planet's gravity 
well to slingshot itself around, gaining kinetic energy through the 
dive into the gravity well).  A teleporter who is hurled due west by 
a brick might teleport to a spot in mid-air well to the east of the 
brick, using his westward velocity to now send himself back toward 
the brick. 
 
A character who can produce strong swinglines like Spiderman or who 
can stretch his arms like Mr. Fantastic could also employ this 
slingshot effect by grabbing onto something solid--provided his arms 
don't get pulled out of their sockets, of course.  A knocked-back 
character with telekinesis is not permitted by the official rules to 
match this act (no action/reaction effect), but a telekinetic partner 
could slingshot him.        
 
Growth and density increase both increase mass.  A character who can 
quadruple his mass in the middle of a Knockback cuts his velocity in 
half and so reduces his Knockback distance to one-quarter.  
(Projectile motion distance equals (v^2/g)sin2A, where v is the 
velocity of the projectile, g is the acceleration due to gravity, and 
A is the launching angle.)  Growth also increases drag, slowing the 
character further.  Some forms of shape shift might be able to 
increase drag, not to mention shape shifting into a flying creature. 
 
Density decrease is a power that has been suggested to this mailing 
list.  This power would increase Knockback distance, which might have 
a once-in-a-lifetime utility.  ("If I land here in the city, I could 
kill someone, not to mention getting KO'ed myself.  My area knowledge 
tells me there's a lake another kilometer farther on.  Now if I can 
just decrease my mass enough to reach it. . . .")  
 
Desolidification is a good one if you don't want to hurt any 
buildings before you land.  Of course, you could be on you're way 
toward the Earth's core if you decide to leave the power on.  This 
power might bring up some sticky issues depending on the SFX of the 
power--if the desolidified character is "out-of-phase" with the real 
world and no longer has real mass, do the normal laws of motion and 
mechanical energy still apply? 
 
While you're sent hurtling across town by a mighty punch, and see no 
way of halting the Knockback, now might be a good time to use that 
Aid power to improve your PD or BODY before you land. 
 
Entangle has some potential.  Depending on the entangle's form, the 
GM may permit a knocked-back character to entangle himself or for a 
teammate to entangle the hurtling character so the entangle absorbs 
part of the collision damage. 
 
A transform might turn the air before the hurtling character into 
denser matter that increases drag.  Then there's the classic creation 
of a snow bank or other soft mass on the ground where the character 
lands to soften the collision. 
 
Using an energy blast to change your velocity is not something 
traditionally supported by the rules.  There's no action/reaction or 
recoil with energy blast in the power's description--that's what the 
flight power is for.  An energy blast might otherwise be used in a 
creative fashion in certain circumstances.  When the Byrne/Claremont 
X-Men fought Proteus, Cyclops used a pulsed optic blast to slow a 
falling Wolverine, knocking back Wolverine in the direction opposite 
that of the fall.  In a space campaign, however, many forms of EB 
should be able to change a character's velocity in a zero-G 
environment.  Photons have no mass, but they do have momentum, so 
even a light beam can provide propulsion. 
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:59:46 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, happyelf wrote: 
 
> At 09:55 PM 12/30/97 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote: 
> >Why not the old trusty 3d6 take the middle method? 
> whu, um, huh? I take it ya had ta be there?  
> And besides, you still have to roll another dice! *argh* 
 
If you roll 3d6, and take the middle die as your stun multiplier (-1 of 
course), you get good bell-curve results without much hassle. Most people 
I know use this method... I thought it was pretty standard? 
 
If you don't want to roll extra dice, then roll the first 3 dice of a 3+ 
die killing attack in a different color. Or roll up to 2 extra dice in a 
different color for your sub-3 die attacks. Then you can read it all at 
once. 
 
However, I tend to think it's more dramatic to have the stun mult be 
independent of the actual value of the attack. Sometimes those low stun 
mults, even when you're hit with a big killing attack, allow the hero to 
grunt forth, "It's... just a flesh wound..." while smacking the gun-toting 
thug into a wall. And a large stun mult on a low attack gives these 
attacks the ability to occasionally do more than "ping," and this removes 
some of the lotto feeling as well. The real danger is the high attack with 
the high stun mult. Especially if the GM allows + stun mults, some 
unbalanced killing attacks do nothing or very little until this situation 
arrives, in which case they knock out the target on stun. The 1d6 RKA +5 
stun mult is a classic. But I digress. I feel that linking the stun mult 
to the value of the killing attack damage roll encourages this 
all-or-nothing feeling in killing attacks. And an extra roll adds a little 
drama. It won't take much time. Get a friend to roll it simultaneously 
with the damage. It can be fun to split up the load that way, and helps 
involve characters who are still waiting for an action. If you're a GM 
rolling for the NPCs, on the other hand, consider a programmable 
calculator or a computer to help with the bookkeeping. 
 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: Re: Encumbrance 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:48:08 -0500 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
On December 30, 1997, bobby farris wrote: 
 
> The way I understand it Encumberance is one of the things that is going to 
be 
> redone in the new 5th edition, atleast I hope so. 
> 	In the meantime I am running a Fantasy Hero campaign and am haved moved 
> the DEX/DCV penalties down one weight class so that the table looks like 
this: 
> 
>	Weight           DCV/DEX 
>	0-6.4kg            0 
>	6.50-12.5          -1 
>	12.6-25            -2 
>		etc. 
 
>	I would like for someone to tell me how they are doing their encumberance 
> rules as I really do not like this. TIA 
 
 
I don't like the existing rules either.  I think the official table imposes 
unrealistic and unnecessary penalties to those carrying just a few kg of 
gear.  It also doesn't go far enough in taking into account a high-STR 
character's ability to bear a load better than a average-STR character can. 
 
My encumbrance levels are based on percentages of the character's maximum 
lift-mass as determined by his STR.  A character can carry up to 10% of this 
lift-mass with no penalty.  Thereafter, penalties are imposed as follows. 
 
Encumbrance Level   DCV/DEX Penalty   END Cost/Turn   Movement Modifier 
 
      10%                  0                0               none 
      20%                 -1                0               none 
      30%                 -2                1               none 
      40%                 -3                2               none 
      60%                 -4                3                3/4 
     100%                 -5                4                1/2   
  
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 01:41:47 EST 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 97-12-30 15:10:16 EST, you write: 
 
<< >h) Transform needs one more level, Complete Transform (20 pts per die)  
 >for those transforms that are, um, well, more Complete than a Major  
 >transform. For Example, Blindness is a Major Transform, currently so is  
 >"Turn to Dust" although the blindness is far less limiting that being  
 >turned into dust. 
  
 Another way to do this and similair effects is to buy an NND KA (I know, 
 not permitted) for a +2 Advantage, and then limit it with "All Or Nothing" 
 (-1/2?) and 'Does No Stun', which basically means the KA does no damage 
 UNLESS it does a total of 2*Body, in which case, it kills according to the 
 SFX. This is useful for "Heart stealing" powers, transform-to-dust, 
 transform-to-ice-and-then-melt-the-ice-and-then-pour-the-water-into-the-ocea 
 n, etc. Right now, Major Transform with cumulative effect is the rough 
 equivalent of an NND KA, and I'm not sure that's cost-balanced. Your 
 average KA leaves a body, after all, which is usually a prerequisite for 
 resurrection. >> 
 
I don't think you'd need the +2 Advantage for a NND KA.  A regular NND KA (if 
it's allowed by the GM at all) is of the normal +1 Advantage, as long as it 
has the one common defense, or set of uncommon defenses.  The reason poisons 
and some venoms are written up with the +2 Advantage is because they've only 
got one uncommon defense.  Someone at HeroGames answered my question about 
this once with that explanation.   
 
'Lynx 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: rolling stats?!? 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:42:58 -0800 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tuesday, December 30, 1997 4:34 PM, happyelf wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>no, you mised my note. 1,2,3,4 is half of a d8, as is 5,6,7,8. 
>hence, when you roll, on a 1,2,3,4 you get less than your points 
worth, 
>on a 5,6,7,8 yopu get your points worth or more. 
>i'm not looking for a bell curve, and in fact a single dice 
>can't really have an average of probability anyway. 
 
Yes, they do. Any probability spread has an average- that's basic 
probability. Rather, any probability spread has three averages, mean, 
median, and mode. For a d8, the mean is 4.5, the median is 4.5, and 
mode is all possible numbers rolled, because it isn't a bell curve but 
even distribution. 
 
Any set of real numbers has a mean and a median. If the numbers are 
fixed and not infinitely variable, then they have a mode as well. 
 
Anyone using your system will end up with, on the average, 10% fewer 
active points in Characteristics for the same number of real points. 
If you wish to do this, you can, but it doesn't make the resulting 
characters equivalent to characters in a standard Hero System game 
with the same points. 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 01:54:02 EST 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 97-12-30 21:06:51 EST, you write: 
 
<< BG>    Well, Desolidification does provide absolute defense against most 
 BG> attacks (that is, all except those of a certain Special Effect). 
 BG> Narrowing down the effect for this to only provide defense against a 
 BG> certain Special Effect might do the trick for this. 
  
 Except for all the baggage that goes along with Desolidification.  Yes, it 
 provides the closest thing to an absoute defense in Hero that one can 
 achieve... it also prevents one from retaliating. >> 
 
Well, would it be fair to say that if a character had Desolid, only vs fire, 
that they'd be immune to fire (defensive), and wouldn't be able to affect fire 
(offensive), unless they bought affect solid world, but in everything else, 
they'd be like a normal character?  That way, you wouldn't be required to buy 
affect solid world on everything else you have.  
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Complex Telekinesis 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:57:37 -0800 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
My daughter's favorite movie is Matilda (which is a good movie for 
young children, with the added benefit that it isn't necessary to flee 
when they turn it on, unlike Barney or Care Bears). When she was 
watching it one day, I noticed Matilda doing something that, in Hero, 
is all but impossible. 
 
While sitting in the middle of a room, she had poker chips flying 
around her in complex, ribbon-like patterns, while simultaneously 
turning on radios and making various other objects move at her 
command. 
 
While I can almost get all of it, how does one simulate the ability to 
keep hundreds of small objects in the air at the same time, not flying 
as a group? If this is "fine manipulation", then what do you call 
things that can be done by immaterial hands? If this is "Change 
Environment", then how can you do it with fairly large, damaging 
objects, like bowling balls or people? How much difference does it 
make if they don't fly in similar patterns? 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 02:05:38 EST 
Subject: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 97-12-30 22:51:56 EST, you write: 
 
<< 	O.K. 
  
 	You shot Happyelf's Stun Multiple change down.  Now what about 
 mine that I posted a few days back. 
  
 	I wish there would be some more commentary on it,; I'd 
 particularly like to see the probabilities worked out. 
  >> 
 
Am I the only one who doesn't think the Stun Lotto is bad?  To me, it adds to 
the excitement of the gaming experience because it brings with it a very 
*real* *fear* when those potentially high-rolling dice are being thrown in 
your direction.  And that is *exactly* what a person looking down the wrong 
end of a Killing Attack *should* be feeling at that moment... *fear*!  Perhaps 
it just hasn't come up that much in our game, but it simply hasn't been a 
problem.  Comments? 
 
'Lynx 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 02:23:41 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
> Am I the only one who doesn't think the Stun Lotto is bad?  To me, it adds to 
> the excitement of the gaming experience because it brings with it a very 
> *real* *fear* when those potentially high-rolling dice are being thrown in 
> your direction.  And that is *exactly* what a person looking down the wrong 
> end of a Killing Attack *should* be feeling at that moment... *fear*!  Perhaps 
> it just hasn't come up that much in our game, but it simply hasn't been a 
> problem.  Comments? 
 
To be honest, I don't particularly fear killing attacks.  The odds of the 
stun lotto favor at  1x multiplier.  Given that for an extreme result you 
need both a high stun mult and a high body roll, why should I feel fear? 
 
I'd be more afraid of a KA with a constant stun multiplier.  It might not 
max out once in a blue moon at a mega high stun level, but it's  more 
likely to give a high stun level due to the small number of dice rolled 
for KA's. 
 
TokyoMark 
 
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 02:45:12 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com> 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>Am I the only one who doesn't think the Stun Lotto is bad?  To me, it adds to 
>the excitement of the gaming experience because it brings with it a very 
>*real* *fear* when those potentially high-rolling dice are being thrown in 
>your direction.  And that is *exactly* what a person looking down the wrong 
>end of a Killing Attack *should* be feeling at that moment... *fear*! 
Perhaps 
>it just hasn't come up that much in our game, but it simply hasn't been a 
>problem.  Comments? 
 
I agree completely.  If you don't want randomness, why are you playing a 
dice-based game, anyway?   
 
Scott 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:46:32 -0800 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
A number of posts have referred to the undesirability of the "STUN 
lotto". While I think the STUN lotto has some utility (fatal stab 
wounds and bullet holes often don't even hurt, at first, especially if 
the target is hopped up on adrenaline), it is generally disliked and 
inconvenient. 
 
The thing I noticed was that just about everyone seems to like the 
"BODY lotto". Given a normal attack and a killing attack, the BODY 
done varies more for the killing attack, by a considerable amount. 
This allows for the all too common effect of shooting a normal with a 
.50 cal machine gun, or even a LAW rocket, and having them live, 
sometimes only moderately injured. 
 
Why is it that people like this effect? Personally, I'd rather roll 
Killing Attacks with the same dice as Normal Attacks, and simply total 
them up normally. Then, call it killing damage, and continue on, using 
the results the same as always. A variation of this can be found on 
Digital Hero. This reduces the STUN lotto and the BODY lotto. 
 
I'd lay long odds that if killing and normal attacks had always been 
rolled this way, there would be a huge outcry against any suggestion 
of changing it to the strange and sometimes confusing method we use 
now. So why is it, exactly, that we work so hard to preserve it? 
 
BTW, for those who like the possibility of rolling _high_ on killing 
attacks, I refer them to the critical hit rules (if only I could find 
them). You can roll high on an attack without having to use these 
strange "killing dice" by allowing any attack to do maximum damage on 
a roll of To Hit/2, rounded down. This, for example, explains how a 
LAW rocket can be used effectively against a main battle tank- iffy, 
but it can work, and taking time, taking care, and skill help. If you 
do allow critical hits, do keep in mind that they can dramatically 
effect combat. It becomes far easier to accidentally kill normals, for 
example, when your 10d6 EB could roll 20 BODY, 60 STUN. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 02:02:46 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting (AGAIN) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>One of the hardest items to deal with yet has been a potion of  
>>polymorph. ...how then do you build the potion?  
 
Multiform, through a focus, charges, with a time limit of some kind, maybe 
an end reserve with out a rec.  Your END hits 0 you change back. 
 
Michael 
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 02:36:44 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Subject: KAs and the Stun Lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
	O.K.  I'm re-sending this for some more debate.  I think it may be 
good enough to see space in 5th ed, but I'm a little biased. 
 
 
			-Tim 
 
	I've stayed on the side of keeping KAs as they are for some time, 
and I will continue as such.  I think the Stun Lotto effect is important 
for KAs to represent the over or under usefullness of the power.  I've 
also said it works best when using the hit location charts, as all powers 
then have the chance for the large or small stuns. 
 
	However, I like the non-Hit Location system.  For one, it's 
simpler.  For another, it allows EBs to be much more dependable and KAs 
much more variable, a status quo that I really like.  There's some nice 
difference between the two. 
 
	Yesterday, I thought up a new way to handle KA stun multiples.  It 
keeps the Stun Lotto, but lessens it.  It also makes Increased Stun Mult 
both more and less effective. 
 
	Roll Bod as normal.  Roll the Stun Multiple Die, then compare it 
to this chart: 
 
	1 -- 1* 
	2 -- 2* 
	3 -- 2* 
	4 -- 3* 
	5 -- 3* 
	6 -- 4* 
 
	Notice that the upper and lower ends are brought in, and that most 
results will now center to 2 and 3.  Notice that the average is unchanged. 
 
	For a +1 Stun Mult, it becomes: 
 
	1 -- 2* 
	2 -- 2* 
	3 -- 3* 
	4 -- 3* 
	5 -- 4* 
	6 -- 4* 
 
	Notice that we have lost the totally ineffecual blast.  Fitting, 
as increased Stun Mult is supposed to represent a weapon with real 
stopping power.  Notice, however, we still don't have the real upper end. 
Just an increased chance for the 4* multiplier. 
 
	At +2 Stun Mult, it becomes: 
 
	1 -- 2* 
	2 -- 3* 
	3 -- 3* 
	4 -- 4* 
	5 -- 4* 
	6 -- 5* 
 
	Now it is really quite effective.  Most attacks will have the 3* 
or 4*, and very little chace for a still effective 2*.  5* has appeared as 
well.  This is a +1 advantage, as well, making it maybe a little 
ineffecive for the cost. 
 
	For each additional +, just keep going up in numbers, always using 
two of each number. 
 
	One thing I'd propose is introducing "decreased Stun mult" as a 
limitation.  Say at -1/2. 
 
	At the  -1 level: 
 
	1 -- 1* 
	2 -- 1* 
	3 -- 2* 
	4 -- 2* 
	5 -- 3* 
	6 -- 3* 
 
	This really does have less real stopping power. 
 
	At the -2 level. 
 
	1 -- 1* 
	2 -- 1* 
	3 -- 1* 
	4 -- 2* 
	5 -- 2* 
	6 -- 3* 
 
	And so on, adding 1's to the bottom.  I'd perhaps change the cost 
to -1/4, or else a high BOD. low STUN KA gets too cheap.  The "decreased 
mult" is one of the possibly unbalancing parts of this power. 
 
	What does everyone think?  I think I'm switching immediately, 
myself.  I think this will give KAs a much better feel. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 02:39:13 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> >>mean, what game system expects you to totally re-write your character every 
> >>game session? Aside from Call of Cthulhu...:-). 
> >> 
> >Paranoia. :) 
> 
> Well, you gotta be really bad at it to go through 5 clones in one session. 
 
	Bad?  Isn't that the whole idea?  To die as quickly as possible? 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:42:36 -0800 
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com> 
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
More notes this time on the 3d6 stun mult method. 
For 4d6 killing roll 3d6 for the stun mult and take the middle die 
(ie 1,2,3 = 2 ; 1,1,5 = 1 ; 2,6,6 = 6) 
 
The average stun is 36.024, and it penetrates 11.272 stun past 30 def. 
The max stun is still 120, put the curve is much more centered. 
 
Pros:	 big stun results are reigned in, it penetrates slightly less stun 
than a normal attack (about 1 stun at 12 dc) 
 
Cons: 	A very slight increase in time. 
 
This is the best system I've done the math on, pending the results of 
more results ( I want to crunch out the Q1 and Q3 locations, the 
variance between the average stun and it's penetration intrigues me) I'm 
close to adopting it as a house rule. 
 
 
And now for something that dosn't work, +1 stun mult for 1/2 advantage. 
 
Assuming that increased stun mult affects dc (which it should, it does 
affect the damage), then it is a loosing proposition and you do less 
stun with increased stun mult. 
Take these 60 active point (12 dc) examples 
12d6 normal does an average 42 stun and penetrates 12.04 past 30 def. 
4d6 killing does an average 37.3 stun and penetrates 13.43 past 30 def. 
1d6 killing with a plus 6 to the stun mult does an average 36.024 stun 
and penetrates 11.272 stun past 30 def.  
Thus with increased stun mult you do a little less stun and a lot less 
body. With the 4d6 killing the max stun is 120, with the 1d6K +6 stun 
mult the max stun is 66 so not only are the averages lower, so also you 
lose the stun lotto chances for Real Big Stun. 
 
Max Callahan, a man annoyed to notice he used Pro's instead of pros in 
his last post. 
mcallahan@home.com 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 02:44:34 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> Am I the only one who doesn't think the Stun Lotto is bad?  To me, it adds to 
> the excitement of the gaming experience because it brings with it a very 
> *real* *fear* when those potentially high-rolling dice are being thrown in 
> your direction.  And that is *exactly* what a person looking down the wrong 
> end of a Killing Attack *should* be feeling at that moment... *fear*!  Perhaps 
> it just hasn't come up that much in our game, but it simply hasn't been a 
> problem.  Comments? 
> 
 
 
	I do like the lotto effect.  It adds some different flavor to 
differentiate KAs and EBs a little more.  It also allows normals, such as 
cops, to have _some_ chance against supers. 
 
	However, it can be unbalancing when people depend on a lucky roll 
on a KA to take out a much better classed opponent.  Taking away a bit of 
the top end would do the trick. 
 
	My other problem was that with increased Stun Mult, there were 
still too many "pings" that shouldn't be occurring.  I think my method 
helps take care of both problems. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 03:04:54 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net (Unverified) 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I made an honest attempt to try and get rid of the stun lotto from my game. 
I was simply going to convert all KA's to normal dice and have them go 
against only res-def. 
Now you have a more balanced attack with out the chance of a big roll or the 
"ping".  
 
My players went wild... I wouldn't have had any players if I had used it. 
They refuse to accept any change t the way KA's are handled.  In fact one 
players said "Killing attacks are the best thing about this game, don't 
change it!" 
 
Oh well... 
 
Michael 
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
"You have never lived until you have almost died.  
And for those who fight for it, life has a 
flavor the protected never know"  
- anonymous 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 04:07:51 -0500 
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net 
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Scott Nolan wrote: 
 
> >Am I the only one who doesn't think the Stun Lotto is bad?  To me, it adds to 
> >the excitement of the gaming experience because it brings with it a very 
> >*real* *fear* when those potentially high-rolling dice are being thrown in 
> >your direction.  And that is *exactly* what a person looking down the wrong 
> >end of a Killing Attack *should* be feeling at that moment... *fear*! 
> Perhaps 
> >it just hasn't come up that much in our game, but it simply hasn't been a 
> >problem.  Comments? 
> 
> I agree completely.  If you don't want randomness, why are you playing a 
> dice-based game, anyway? 
> 
 
  I have never felt that the "stun lotto" was an aspect of the game that needed 
examination or change. While my players don't fear KAs per se, they all can 
remember when stun multiples have worked for and against them. It makes for 
exciting gaming. 
 
I would be interested in knowing what it is about the stun multiple that people 
feel it needs to be changed. Randomness? Magnitude? Fear of being unconscious 
before their enemies? 
 
Kev 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 04:17:50 -0500 
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net 
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood 
Subject: Re: Stats for small animals, pests, etc 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Roger A. Wesson, Jr. wrote: 
 
>   I am designing a NPC tenatively named Pest Control.  I want him to be 
> able to 'call' various pests which will follow his commands.  I will be using 
> Summon with a linked Mind Control for this, but I need to know how many 
> points I'll need to put into Summon. 
>   I envision PC being able to call forth swarms (1"-3" radius) of insects, packs of rats, bats, and maybe a handful of larger pests (feral dogs,etc).  Is there 
> any published book with stats for such things?  Or can people make suggestions for what these animals' stats and cost would be. 
> 
> 
 
If you can find a copy of AC #24(Summer '94), Curtis Craddock has an excellant article on 
building a swarm of anything. There are three examples, swarm of wasps at 
250 pts, swarm of ants at 260 points, swarm of alien spores for 404 pts. There is an excellant 
drawing of a swarm heroine(or villainess) on page 7. 
Be sure to read the article on Kumite. It is completely unrelated to anything but it mentions 
me and my character, White Spider, who was runner up at GenCon's 
 '93 Kumite Competition.Kev 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 04:29:38 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Re: Stats for small animals, pests, etc 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>Roger A. Wesson, Jr. wrote: 
> 
>>   I am designing a NPC tenatively named Pest Control.  I want him to be 
>> able to 'call' various pests which will follow his commands.  I will be using 
>> Summon with a linked Mind Control for this, but I need to know how many 
>> points I'll need to put into Summon. 
>>   I envision PC being able to call forth swarms (1"-3" radius) of 
insects, packs of rats, bats, and maybe a handful of larger pests (feral 
dogs,etc).  Is there 
>> any published book with stats for such things?  Or can people make 
suggestions for what these animals' stats and cost would be. 
 
The Fantasy Hero Monster Book (I forget the name) had rules fro running 
swarm and included several swarms written-up.  Including the famous swarming 
Bengal Tigers! 
 
Michael  
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
"You have never lived until you have almost died.  
And for those who fight for it, life has a 
flavor the protected never know"  
- anonymous 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 04:59:40 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Units of Measure 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:55 PM 12/30/97 -0500, Jamie Rosen wrote: 
>Actually, many countries have switched over to the metric system.  But I 
>can see why you wouldn't want to use it in a game.  I mean, who needs 
>measurements that whose ratios are powers of ten.  It's so much easier to 
>remember 1760 yards to a mile, 3 feet to a yard, 16 ounces to a pound 
>(except gold, which is 12), 2000 lbs to a ton.  Why would I possibly want 
>a system that doesn't use such logical ratios? 
 
It's a matter of inertia. If you grow up in a world of feet and pounds, it 
IS easier to remember those ratios -- at least, it's easier to remember 3 
feet to the yard instead of 3.25 (?) feet to the meter, and 2000 lbs. to a 
ton instead of 2200 (metric).  While the mathematical ease of intrametric 
conversions is a thing of beauty, it takes more than just saying "okay, 
let's go metric" to switch systems.  It's like learning a new language: 
there's an internal mental step somewhere between thinking of "le crayon" as 
a "P-E-N-C-I-L" and thinking of it as "a pencil", between merely translating 
on the fly and actually -knowing- the terms. 
 
Actually, I've always wondered if anyone else saw the wierdness that the 
game uses INCHES two represent two METERS. :]  (I think this is just because 
of the convienience of (") vs. (cm) as abbreviations, personally ...) 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 97 08:36:31 -0500 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
cc: <champ-l@omg.org> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 12/30/97 10:36 PM, Tim R. Gilberg (trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu) Said: 
 
>	You shot Happyelf's Stun Multiple change down.  Now what about 
>mine that I posted a few days back. 
> 
>	I wish there would be some more commentary on it,; I'd 
>particularly like to see the probabilities worked out. 
 
I don't believe I saw this; would you repost it please? 
 
 
 
                                         |  David A. Fair 
        Think Different                  |  SDS International 
                                         |  dfair@sdslink.com 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 08:59:52 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>> >>mean, what game system expects you to totally re-write your character every 
>> >>game session? Aside from Call of Cthulhu...:-). 
>> >> 
>> >Paranoia. :) 
>> 
>> Well, you gotta be really bad at it to go through 5 clones in one session. 
> 
>	Bad?  Isn't that the whole idea?  To die as quickly as possible? 
 
No, it's to kill as many of the PCs as possible, after revealing them to be 
commie mutant traitors. If you personally want to go through 5 clones, all 
you have to do is point laser pistol A against your own head B and pull 
trigger C. Repeat with new clone. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting (AGAIN) 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:04:43 -0500 (EST) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> >>One of the hardest items to deal with yet has been a potion of  
> >>polymorph. ...how then do you build the potion?  
>  
> Multiform, through a focus, charges, with a time limit of some kind, maybe 
> an end reserve with out a rec.  Your END hits 0 you change back. 
>  
 
The problem with that is you wouldn't have access to any of your skills. 
Your mental characteristics would change, too. 
 
-Eric 
 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 97 09:06:52 -0500 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> BG>    Well, Desolidification does provide absolute defense against most 
> BG> attacks (that is, all except those of a certain Special Effect). 
> BG> Narrowing down the effect for this to only provide defense against a 
> BG> certain Special Effect might do the trick for this. 
>  
> Except for all the baggage that goes along with Desolidification.  Yes, it 
> provides the closest thing to an absoute defense in Hero that one can 
> achieve... it also prevents one from retaliating. >> 
> 
>Well, would it be fair to say that if a character had Desolid, only vs fire, 
>that they'd be immune to fire (defensive), and wouldn't be able to affect  
>fire 
>(offensive), unless they bought affect solid world, but in everything else, 
>they'd be like a normal character?  That way, you wouldn't be required to buy 
>affect solid world on everything else you have.  
 
But Desolid doesn't work as invulnerability for another reason, the  
attack passes right through. This prevents FireBoy, who is "invulnerable"  
to fire damage from using his own body as a barrier to prevent  
EvilFlameMan from roasting the bystanders. 
 
And remember that desolid _means_ that you are insubstantial & ignore the  
physical world. This is not Superman-type invulnerability. 
 
                                         |  David A. Fair 
        Think Different                  |  SDS International 
                                         |  dfair@sdslink.com 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: Punching People Into Orbit 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:16:12 -0500 (EST) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
> how about this? the 'punch' is actually a throw. will that give  
> signifigantly more distance? 
>  
>  
 
This is a good idea, but unfortunately the throw chart is only slightly 
less screwed up in Hero/Champs than knockback.  It works out so that 
someone with a 100 STR could throw someone about a tenth of a mile. 
Impressive, but not impressive enough for seriously strong bricks like 
the Hulk. 
 
-Eric  
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Re: [HS5] Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:50:00 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I said: 
>>I've never liked air-to-gizmo. There's always a chance of a bad roll. 
If 
>>I want to keep my gun in a pocket dimension and summon it when I need 
>>it, I'd like to be able to do so. 
 
Tim Gilberg said: 
>Then just buy the power you want the item to provide.  Don't ask 
>for a focus limitation, however. 
 
If it's my own focus, then yes. But how about if I wanted to store other 
people's stuff, too? How about a billion-dollar diamond or a Cosmic 
Cube? 
 
It's the old how-do-you-build-a-bag-of-holding-in-Hero question. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 08:59:45 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 06:40 PM 12/31/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>> TRG> 	We've been through this.  It makes one able to move through 
>> TRG> objects and gives one the ability to ignore attacks. 
>> 
>> I'm sorry, but that is not what my books describe as the primary effect 
>> of Desolidification. 
> 
>	Nope, those are the game effects granted by the power.  Use those 
>game effects to fit any SFX you are trying to work with.  Are you trying 
>to limit Hero with default SFX? 
 
Not default SFX, default *effects*.  Each Power has a specific purpose, 
printed in the first sentence of their description.  Everything that follows 
is merely a ramification of that purpose.  Sometimes, the purpose can be 
circumvented by certain advantages or limitations, but this is the exception 
and not the rule. 
 
Spending 40 points does not render you immune to attacks & capable of 
passing through objects.  It renders you insubstantial, and the rest of the 
description amounts to the game effects of being insubstantial. If a given 
construction does not result in the character being insubstantial, do not 
pass go, do not collect $200, do not read the rest of the Desolid paragraphs. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:26:44 -0500 
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org> 
Subject: KAs and the Stun Lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> 	Roll Bod as normal.  Roll the Stun Multiple Die, then compare it 
> to this chart: 
>  
> 	1 -- 1* 
> 	2 -- 2* 
> 	3 -- 2* 
> 	4 -- 3* 
> 	5 -- 3* 
> 	6 -- 4* 
 
Definitely better, but I hate the idea of charts... 
 
Geoff Speare 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:35:44 -0500 
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org> 
Subject: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> I would be interested in knowing what it is about the stun multiple that 
> people feel it needs to be changed. Randomness? Magnitude? Fear of being 
> unconscious before their enemies? 
 
As a GM, I have a problem with the way the stun lotto makes killing weapons 
inordinately effective as compared to normal weapons of similar magnitude, 
_against high defense targets_. The typical example is a 250 supers game, 
where most if not all players have a lot of resistant defense. Attacks were 
around 12DC, defenses in the 20-30 range. Say the group faces a bunch of 
agents armed with real-world rifles (2d6K). These rifles have the potential to 
do 60 STUN; if there are enough agents (and/or if the rifles are machine guns 
instead), someone will probably go down. In a genre where supers usually laugh 
off bullets, this doesn't make sense. On the other hand, if the agents were 
carrying normal weapons of equivalent pointage (6d6N), the maximum STUN would 
be 36 -- enough to sting -- but the chance of getting to that level is 
dramatically less than for the KA. Finally, to make oneself immune to damage 
from that 2d6 RKA requires 60 PD, which would make campaign-level normal 
attacks (12d6N) all but useless against the character.  
 
Geoff Speare 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 31 Dec 1997 10:43:02 -0500 
Lines: 26 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "F" == Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> writes: 
 
F> Well, would it be fair to say that if a character had Desolid, only vs 
F> fire, 
 
No.  Desolidification does not work this way.  It does not make one immune 
to damage, it makes one insubstantial to the physical world/plane/whatever 
you want to call it. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 97 11:26:18 -0500 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 12/31/97 2:05 AM, Firelynx16 (Firelynx16@aol.com) Said: 
 
>Am I the only one who doesn't think the Stun Lotto is bad?  To me, it adds to 
>the excitement of the gaming experience because it brings with it a very 
>*real* *fear* when those potentially high-rolling dice are being thrown in 
>your direction.  And that is *exactly* what a person looking down the wrong 
>end of a Killing Attack *should* be feeling at that moment... *fear*!   
>Perhaps 
>it just hasn't come up that much in our game, but it simply hasn't been a 
>problem.  Comments? 
 
Killing attacks should inspire fear, fear of death. Not fear of big stun  
multipliers & being knocked out. That doesn't make sense. 
 
People who are staring at the wrong end of a gun barrell ought not to be  
thinking, "I hope I don't get knocked out..." they ought to be thinking,  
"I hope I don't die..." 
 
 
                                         |  David A. Fair 
        Think Different                  |  SDS International 
                                         |  dfair@sdslink.com 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 31 Dec 1997 11:37:48 -0500 
Lines: 31 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "DF" == David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> writes: 
 
DF> People who are staring at the wrong end of a gun barrell ought not to 
DF> be thinking, "I hope I don't get knocked out..." they ought to be 
DF> thinking, "I hope I don't die..." 
 
For all the complaints about the Stun lotto, it actually does reasonably 
mirror they way that "real" killing damage works.  To wit, gunshot wounds 
may in and of themselves be relatively minor, but cause tremendous systemic 
shock (Stun damage) -- and then the victim slowly bleeds to death.  Or they 
may cause great ammounts of tissue disruption but not much shock trauma. 
 
The Stun lotto goes a long way to simulating that wide range of effect. 
 
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Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:39:12 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Reply-To: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, Geoffrey Speare wrote: 
 
> > I would be interested in knowing what it is about the stun multiple that 
> > people feel it needs to be changed. Randomness? Magnitude? Fear of being 
> > unconscious before their enemies? 
> As a GM, I have a problem with the way the stun lotto makes killing weapons 
> inordinately effective as compared to normal weapons of similar magnitude, 
> _against high defense targets_. The typical example is a 250 supers game, 
> where most if not all players have a lot of resistant defense. Attacks were 
> around 12DC, defenses in the 20-30 range. Say the group faces a bunch of 
> agents armed with real-world rifles (2d6K). These rifles have the potential to 
> do 60 STUN; if there are enough agents (and/or if the rifles are machine guns 
> instead), someone will probably go down. In a genre where supers usually laugh 
> off bullets, this doesn't make sense. On the other hand, if the agents were 
> carrying normal weapons of equivalent pointage (6d6N), the maximum STUN would 
> be 36 -- enough to sting -- but the chance of getting to that level is 
> dramatically less than for the KA. Finally, to make oneself immune to damage 
> from that 2d6 RKA requires 60 PD, which would make campaign-level normal 
> attacks (12d6N) all but useless against the character.  
 
Although I haven't done the math myself, one of my players (a math 
teacher) points out that there is nothing wrong with d6-1 stun mults per 
se--just the price of killing attacks if using that method. Killing 
attacks should be more expensive to reflect that greater maximum stun. 
Furthermore, it makes killing attacks more valuable for their STUN 
potential than their BODY potential. 
 
When analyzing probabilities in Champions, we can't limit ourselves to 
averages. If a player came up to you and said he wanted an "unstable" OCV, 
such that half the time it would be +100, and half the time -100, he'd be 
laughed away... despite his argument that "his average OCV is 0." When 
figuring weighted averages appropriate to Champions math, we define a 
point for which all values at that point or lower are considered 
functionally equivalent--this can be straight failure, in the case of an 
attack or skill roll, or insignificant or "ping" damage in the case of 
damage rolls... At that point, you weigh all elements below it as if they 
were equivalent to the point you picked. 
 
If 0 OCV's were the point at which you had such little hope of hitting 
that anything less would be functionally equivalent, then you weigh all 
possibilities below that as if they were 0. Our "unstable OCV" munchkin 
now has a weighted average OCV of 50... 
 
There's a lot more you can do to get a successful analysis on damage rolls 
in Champions. You can take into account the typical CON of the typical 
targets of the attack, and weight results slightly higher that will stun 
an opponent, and so on. The point of serious analysis on these things is 
not to say that one way is wrong or right--high stun rolls, big hits, and 
the like have a place in many campaigns. But the d6-1 approach needs to be 
seriously reexamined from a cost accounting perspective. 
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:21:30 -0800 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: [HS5] Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:50 AM 12/31/97 -0500, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>I said: 
>>>I've never liked air-to-gizmo. There's always a chance of a bad roll. 
>If 
>>>I want to keep my gun in a pocket dimension and summon it when I need 
>>>it, I'd like to be able to do so. 
> 
>Tim Gilberg said: 
>>Then just buy the power you want the item to provide.  Don't ask 
>>for a focus limitation, however. 
> 
>If it's my own focus, then yes. But how about if I wanted to store other 
>people's stuff, too? How about a billion-dollar diamond or a Cosmic 
>Cube? 
> 
>It's the old how-do-you-build-a-bag-of-holding-in-Hero question. 
> 
Exactly the power I was about to add to the list of 'things Hero doesn't do 
well' -- 'Internal dimensions'. I remember a villain in Marvel who could 
suck people into himself, basically trapping them in an internal dimension. 
Dimension Travel, Usable Against Others? Along with Summon, "Only to summon 
things from my internal dimension", in order to pull things out again? (Or 
T-Port, Usable Against Others, Transdimensional?) 
 
From: Fvigil <Fvigil@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:25:09 EST 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
The problem I see with Killing Attacks is that they are not just ore effective 
at doing Body than regular Energy Blasts, but also more effective at doing 
Stun than regular Energy Blasts. 
 
Lets consider a campaign with average attacks of 60 Active Point attacks and 
defenses of 30.  (These should not be to unusual.)  I 
 
An 12D Energy Blast averages 42 Stun and 12 Body.  Obviously the Body bounces 
off the Defense, but 12 points of Stun penetrate. 
 
A 4D Killing Attack averages 14 Body (up 2 from the EB).  There are 6 possible 
Stun Multiplier rolls.  A roll of 1, 2 or 3 means no Stun penetrates the 
armor.  A 4 allows 12 to penetrate, and a 5 and 6 allow 26 and 40 respectivly 
to penetrate. So the average penetrating damage is: (0+0+0+12+26+40)/6 = 13 
Stun.   
 
If you change the attacks to 10D (3D+1KA) and the defenses to 25, the average 
penetrations change to: EB 10   KA 10.5   
 
These numbers appear fairly close (and in fact with a little less defense the 
EB edges out the KA - barely), but the big key here is how often the arget 
will be Stunned.  If the average Con in either of hese games is a 20, the EB 
will rarely Stun, but the KA will Stun the target 1/3 of the time.  This makes 
the target easier to hit next time, and might also lower defenses such as 
Force Field.  It also means that the target will lose 1/3 of his attacks - a 
huge benefit to the KA wielder.   
 
So, the KA is just as effective at doing Stun, does more Body, is more likely 
to Stun  the opponent - for the same cost.  So KA appears to be a better buy 
for the points that EB.  I think KA should be expected to do more Body and 
less Stun than EB if they will cost the same. 
 
By the way, the other two differences I can think of don't change my mind - 
the KA will average 1-2" less of Knockback, but will do a lot more damage to 
something without Resistant Defenses.   
 
Do we want to encourage Heroes to take Killing Attacks?  I don't.  Some minor 
adjustment with the Stun Lottery that would lower the average Stun would go a 
long way towards correcting the problem I see.  
 
   Fernando 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:36:08 EST 
Subject: Re: AC 24 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> If you can find a copy of AC #24(Summer '94), Curtis Craddock has an 
excellant 
> article on building a swarm of anything. 
 
  Just FYI, we have copies of AC #24 available, at $5 each. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
  http://members.aol.com/goldrushg 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:42:08 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat writes: 
 
> For all the complaints about the Stun lotto, it actually does reasonably 
> mirror they way that "real" killing damage works.  To wit, gunshot wounds 
> may in and of themselves be relatively minor, but cause tremendous systemic 
> shock (Stun damage) -- and then the victim slowly bleeds to death.  Or they 
> may cause great ammounts of tissue disruption but not much shock trauma. 
>  
> The Stun lotto goes a long way to simulating that wide range of effect. 
  
Well, if the stun multiplier were applied _after_ defenses that would be true.  
However, a bullet hitting a bulletproof vest (and not going through) is not 
particularly more random than being whacked by a guy with a club. 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:54:11 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: [HS5] Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, Lizard wrote: 
 
> >It's the old how-do-you-build-a-bag-of-holding-in-Hero question. 
> > 
> Exactly the power I was about to add to the list of 'things Hero doesn't do 
> well' -- 'Internal dimensions'. I remember a villain in Marvel who could 
> suck people into himself, basically trapping them in an internal dimension. 
> Dimension Travel, Usable Against Others? Along with Summon, "Only to summon 
> things from my internal dimension", in order to pull things out again? (Or 
> T-Port, Usable Against Others, Transdimensional?) 
>  
 
The Incomplete Character rules include a wonderful power called "Internal 
Spaces." While the name doesn't exactly inspire awe, it's one of the 
many good ideas in those rules. 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:28:22 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I have found that in most Superhero games I have been in, Killing Attacks 
aren't all that common since most people aren't building killing machines. 
Thus, we haven't seen alot of the instant out problem. 
 
That said, I will admit that in some of our older games, Killing Attacks 
did wipe out some people with one shot, but then, so did some normal 
attacks (esp ones that triggered a vulnerability).  I have also seen 
Killing Attacks (of 3d6+) just bounce off of someone's defenses. 
 
Now, when one local GM considered running a very '4-color' game, I managed 
to talk him into using a flat X3 Stun multiple for all Killing Attacks. 
Using this rule, the average 1d6+1 9mm pistol will do 4 Body, 12 Stun, 
which will bounce off of most (if not all) Brick-type supers.  2d6 RKA 
rifles will do 21 Stun (on average) and someone with a superhero-level 2d6 
HKA (usually capable of hitting 4d6 with STR and all) will max out at 72 
Stun and average at 42 Stun.  Dangerous, but not totally unbalancing. 
 
Perhaps mention could be made (in a Sidebar?) in the 5th Edition about 
using this rule for 4-Color games? 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org> 
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> 
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 18:45:20 +0000 
Subject: Re: Punching People Into Orbit 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
So Sayeth John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net&> 
 
> How about this, then: 
>  
> # Extra BODY    Extra STR for    Distance 
> on KB Roll      Throwing         of Throw/KB 
>  
>     1           0                    1" 
>     2           5                    2" 
>     3           10                   4" 
>     4           15                   8" 
>     5           20                  16" 
>     6           25                  32" 
>     7           30                  64" 
>     8           35                 128" 
>     9           40                 256" 
>    10           45                 512" 
>    11           50                1024" 
>    12           55                2048" 
>    13           60                4096" 
>    etc          etc                etc 
>  
> Note that 'throwing' is for a standing throw. For a running throw, each 10" of 
> velocity adds 5 extra STR for throwing. A prone throw is done at 5 less extra 
> STR. 
 
This is not bad, but I thought I should point out that Hero system doesn't  
EXACTLY give double effect for +1 body, but actually seems to use a progression  
based on the 10th root of 1000, which is something like 1.995. I know it seems  
like a minor quibble, but it turns the above distance progression into: 
 
 # Extra BODY    Extra STR for    Distance 
 on KB Roll      Throwing         of Throw/KB 
  
     1           0                    1" 
     2           5                    2" 
     3           10                   4" 
     4           15                   8" 
     5           20                  16" 
     6           25                  32" 
     7           30                  64" 
     8           35                 125" 
     9           40                 250" 
    10           45                   1 km 
    11           50                   2 km 
    12           55                   4 km 
    13           60                   8 km                 
    etc          etc                etc 
 
which works out to nicer numbers IMHO. 
 
--  
 Stirling Westrup  |  Use of the Internet by this poster 
 sti@cam.org       |  is not to be construed as a tacit 
                   |  endorsement of Western Technological 
                   |  Civilization or its appurtenances. 
 
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com> 
Subject: Incomplete Characters... 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:57:45 CST 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
With everyone wondering what this is, and the question continually 
coming up, perhaps the author might submit it to either Digital HERO 
or see if GRG is interested in the idea for a product? 
 
 
DonM. 
-- 
========================================================================= 
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist,              (217) 239-8365 =  
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL     dmckinne@cmi.csc.com = 
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 = 
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org    (217) 469-9917 =  
========================================================================= 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:13:27 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: [HS5] Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:29 PM 12/30/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>> >>>There should be a way to summon specific individuals. 
>> >>Agreed. Summoning specific objects, too. 
>> >I always used Transform:Air to Whatever for that. If you want to summon 
>> >someone's foci, that's a bit game unbalancing... 
>> 
>> I've never liked air-to-gizmo. There's always a chance of a bad roll. If 
>> I want to keep my gun in a pocket dimension and summon it when I need 
>> it, I'd like to be able to do so. 
> 
> Then just buy the power you want the item to provide.  Don't ask 
>for a focus limitation, however. 
 
   Personally, I prefer to use Summon, with the real points of the item as 
the base points for the Summon. 
   And the character still has to buy the original item. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 19:24:21 +0000 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
Subject: Re: KAs and the Stun Lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Geoffrey Speare wrote: 
>  
> >       Roll Bod as normal.  Roll the Stun Multiple Die, then compare it 
> > to this chart: 
> > 
> >       1 -- 1* 
> >       2 -- 2* 
> >       3 -- 2* 
> >       4 -- 3* 
> >       5 -- 3* 
> >       6 -- 4* 
>  
> Definitely better, but I hate the idea of charts... 
>  
> Geoff Speare 
 
Burnt out by RoleMaster? 
 
Our group has been doing a steady x3 stun multiplier.  Gets rid of the regular 
stun lotto.  There is still the variance that comes from rolling a fewer 
amount of dice.  We've used it from Fantasy Hero to high powered champions 
games and so far it's worked out nicely. 
 
-Mark 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:33:15 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:03 PM 12/30/97 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
> 
>BG>    I think what was intended here was something like the "Regeneration" 
>BG> in Doctor Who, where the lead character becomes someone rather 
>BG> different every so often. 
> 
>That is just a "radiation accident".  What is intended is a character that 
>changes more frequently. 
 
   I think I'd categorize this under "different strokes." 
 
>BG>    I have yet to see if my method of doing Slipperiness (or, as I call 
>BG> it, Slick) with Transform passes muster with Bruce.  (Steven has 
>BG> already said he prefers the Change Environment approach, but I think 
>BG> Bruce has more sway over the final ruling.) 
> 
>Probably... Transformation has the problem that the durability of the thing 
>being affected has a direct impact on the degree of effect.  This should 
>not be the case. 
 
   There is that.  Personally I'd prefer to see an extension of Entangle 
for this type of effect. 
 
>>> This is a big no-no in Hero.  There are no absolute attacks or defenses. 
> 
>BG>    Well, Desolidification does provide absolute defense against most 
>BG> attacks (that is, all except those of a certain Special Effect). 
>BG> Narrowing down the effect for this to only provide defense against a 
>BG> certain Special Effect might do the trick for this. 
> 
>Except for all the baggage that goes along with Desolidification.  Yes, it 
>provides the closest thing to an absoute defense in Hero that one can 
>achieve... it also prevents one from retaliating. 
 
   Some have used a variation of Desolid where one can still use attacks of 
a type that the Desolidification has a specific Limitation that it doesn't 
affect (and unless this Limitation is fairly broad, the character must 
still have a "reasonably common" Special Effect that affects him that he 
doesn't have).  This would allow, for example, a character who turns into 
living light to use light-based powers as well as be affected by light (in 
addtion to something else reasonably common, such as Darkness powers or 
magic). 
   As I say, though, this is a common "house rule," and not official. 
   (And just incidentally, I happen to side with those who say that the 
Affects Desolidified Advantage should be abolished.  Desolidified 
characters having to be affectable by some "reasonably common" special 
effect is enough.) 
 
>>> As well it should be.  If you want to "go faster" (read: act more 
>>> frequently in a Turn) buy more Speed.  Anything more than that is an 
>>> absolute, which violates one of the core premises of Champions mechanics. 
> 
>BG>    I think I've mentioned this recently, but... I do allow XDM to a 
>BG> dimension called "StillTime," which is the same as the current 
>BG> dimension except that everything except those in StillTime is frozen in 
>BG> time.  Of course, to affect anything in the real world, the character 
>BG> has to have Indirect and Transdimensional on whatever he's using 
>BG> (usually STR), though these Advantages could be bought "Only in 
>BG> StillTime." 
>BG>    That's a very sketchy description, but I think it could work. 
> 
>I still have a problem with it, mostly because I have problems with "time 
>travel" in general.  The Universe does not like paradox.  Besides, if 
>something is temporally "frozen", how can you affect it?  Any effect has a 
>duration, but for a thing thus frozen no time elapses thus no time for a 
>cause to have an effect. 
> 
>The ability to "step out" for a moment would be Extradimensional Movement. 
>However, I would stomp down hard on any attempt to use this as a means of 
>obtaining more attack actions per "real time" Turn than a character 
>normally has.  That is *not* in keeping with the genre, it is cheating. 
 
   Villains frequently cheat.  It's for this reason that I allow this -- 
but as a "Stop Sign" rule. 
   Should a hero use this to "cheat," I'd treat it just as I would any 
other method of getting an unfair advantage: the villains start to copy it. 
 
>>> "Smell" may be a non-targeting sense for a normal person, but it is for 
>>> many animals.  And those animals are used in this capacity. 
> 
>BG>    I don't think "Smell" is a Targeting Sense for any real-world 
animal -- 
>BG> at least, not if I understand what a Targeting Sense is in Hero terms. 
> 
>Sharks come to mind. 
 
   Point ceded -- except, how often do heroes have to fight sharks?  I 
mean, it's a complication that isn't exactly rare, but being Invisible to 
Smell still isn't as good as being Invisible to Sight. 
 
>>> The proscription against summoning specific individuals is more to prevent 
>>> characters from summoning their allies or enemies than anything else. 
> 
>BG>    I see no reason why this shouldn't be allowed, if the character in 
>BG> question is willing to spend the points for it. 
> 
>Because it puts a character in a position of being able to either bypass an 
>enemy's defenses or circumvent the necessity of an ally having to purchase 
>relevant movement powers. 
 
   I once had a PC superhero group with only one character with a major 
Movement Power.  This character had Teleportation with enough Increased 
Mass to carry the rest of the group, and she could carry them a couple of 
miles per jump.  This one PC paid full the point cost for this (well, it 
was a fixed slot in a Multipower, but she still paid the points).  Was this 
cheating, in your view? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:37:38 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:41 AM 12/31/97 EST, Firelynx16 wrote: 
> Another way to do this and similair effects is to buy an NND KA (I know, 
> not permitted) for a +2 Advantage, and then limit it with "All Or Nothing" 
> (-1/2?) and 'Does No Stun', which basically means the KA does no damage 
> UNLESS it does a total of 2*Body, in which case, it kills according to the 
> SFX. This is useful for "Heart stealing" powers, transform-to-dust, 
> transform-to-ice-and-then-melt-the-ice-and-then-pour-the-water-into-the-ocea 
> n, etc. Right now, Major Transform with cumulative effect is the rough 
> equivalent of an NND KA, and I'm not sure that's cost-balanced. Your 
> average KA leaves a body, after all, which is usually a prerequisite for 
> resurrection. >> 
> 
>I don't think you'd need the +2 Advantage for a NND KA.  A regular NND KA (if 
>it's allowed by the GM at all) is of the normal +1 Advantage, as long as it 
>has the one common defense, or set of uncommon defenses.  The reason poisons 
>and some venoms are written up with the +2 Advantage is because they've only 
>got one uncommon defense.  Someone at HeroGames answered my question about 
>this once with that explanation. 
 
   Under the current published wisdom, I think it'd still be called a +2, 
because it's an NND (+1) that Does BODY (another +1). 
   Oh, and whoever came up with that power description in the first 
paragraph above, good job!   :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:45:58 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:59 PM 12/30/97 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote: 
>On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, happyelf wrote: 
> 
>> At 09:55 PM 12/30/97 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote: 
>> >Why not the old trusty 3d6 take the middle method? 
>> whu, um, huh? I take it ya had ta be there?  
>> And besides, you still have to roll another dice! *argh* 
> 
>If you roll 3d6, and take the middle die as your stun multiplier (-1 of 
>course), you get good bell-curve results without much hassle. Most people 
>I know use this method... I thought it was pretty standard? 
> 
>If you don't want to roll extra dice, then roll the first 3 dice of a 3+ 
>die killing attack in a different color. Or roll up to 2 extra dice in a 
>different color for your sub-3 die attacks. Then you can read it all at 
>once. 
 
   Here's another method for those who don't want to roll extra dice, as 
well as a help for those who dislike the "stun lotto": average the dice on 
the to-hit roll, and subtract the result from 6 (with the usual minimum 
result of 1). 
   It's a thought I just had, and it supports the idea that better rolls to 
hit should do more damage.  The only problem with it is that most of the 
lower-STUN results won't ever hit in the first place. 
 
>However, I tend to think it's more dramatic to have the stun mult be 
>independent of the actual value of the attack. Sometimes those low stun 
>mults, even when you're hit with a big killing attack, allow the hero to 
>grunt forth, "It's... just a flesh wound..." while smacking the gun-toting 
>thug into a wall. And a large stun mult on a low attack gives these 
>attacks the ability to occasionally do more than "ping," and this removes 
>some of the lotto feeling as well. The real danger is the high attack with 
>the high stun mult. Especially if the GM allows + stun mults, some 
>unbalanced killing attacks do nothing or very little until this situation 
>arrives, in which case they knock out the target on stun. The 1d6 RKA +5 
>stun mult is a classic. But I digress. I feel that linking the stun mult 
>to the value of the killing attack damage roll encourages this 
>all-or-nothing feeling in killing attacks. And an extra roll adds a little 
>drama. It won't take much time. Get a friend to roll it simultaneously 
>with the damage. It can be fun to split up the load that way, and helps 
>involve characters who are still waiting for an action. If you're a GM 
>rolling for the NPCs, on the other hand, consider a programmable 
>calculator or a computer to help with the bookkeeping. 
 
   Personally, I tend to think of the Stun Multiple die as being a quick 
and simplified replacement for Hit Locations.  Rolled low?  "Ack, he sliced 
my hand a good one!"  Rolled high?  "Pretty nasty cut across the neck you 
got there, Duncan." 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:51:16 -0500 
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org> 
Subject: KAs and the Stun Lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> > Definitely better, but I hate the idea of charts... 
> >  
> > Geoff Speare 
>  
> Burnt out by RoleMaster? 
 
I actually chuckled when I wrote that, as many of my house rules involve 
charts too. :-) I guess what I don't like is "arbitrary" charts that you have 
to have handy in combat. The Range mod chart, for example, is based on a 
formula that you can remember, so it's no big deal. The hit location chart is 
arbitrary, but I think it has to be.  
 
> Our group has been doing a steady x3 stun multiplier.  Gets rid of the regular 
> stun lotto.  There is still the variance that comes from rolling a fewer 
> amount of dice.  We've used it from Fantasy Hero to high powered champions 
> games and so far it's worked out nicely. 
 
This, or making killing attacks look like normal attacks (6DC killing attack = 
roll 6d6, damage as per a normal attack but against resistant defenses) are my 
two favorite options thus far. 
 
Geoff Speare 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:51:54 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: KAs and the Stun Lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:36 AM 12/31/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> Roll Bod as normal.  Roll the Stun Multiple Die, then compare it 
>to this chart: 
> 
> 1 -- 1* 
> 2 -- 2* 
> 3 -- 2* 
> 4 -- 3* 
> 5 -- 3* 
> 6 -- 4* 
> 
> Notice that the upper and lower ends are brought in, and that most 
>results will now center to 2 and 3.  Notice that the average is unchanged. 
> 
> For a +1 Stun Mult, it becomes: 
> 
> 1 -- 2* 
> 2 -- 2* 
> 3 -- 3* 
> 4 -- 3* 
> 5 -- 4* 
> 6 -- 4* 
> 
> Notice that we have lost the totally ineffecual blast.  Fitting, 
>as increased Stun Mult is supposed to represent a weapon with real 
>stopping power.  Notice, however, we still don't have the real upper end. 
>Just an increased chance for the 4* multiplier. 
 
   For this reason, I think I'd make +1 STUN Multiple cost a +1/4 Advantage 
instead of the current +1/2.  Or, more likely, call the +1/4 level (as 
given on this chart) +1/2 STUN Multiple. 
   Otherwise I agree that this may very well be worth including in Hero5, 
if only as an optional alternate rule. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: "Roger A. Wesson, Jr." <uraeus@bunt.com> 
Subject: The Tick universe 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 21:00:06 +0100 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
  Has anybody developed the characters from The Tick for use with 
Champions? 
  I don't plan on using that setting normally, but it might make a good 
break from the 'normal' superhero universe.  Like if the 'normal' 
heroes get XDmoved into the Tick's world. Heh heh heh. 
 
  -Roger Wesson 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:31:17 -0600 
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net> 
Subject: Re: Building the "psychic"... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 1/1/98, at 10:00 AM, psansone@i1.net wrote:  
 
>Hey everyone, I'm about to get involved in a Horror Hero games where powers  
>aren't allowed, but I thought I'd have some fun and build a "psychic" fraud.  
> Just wondering what kind of skills everyone would give and any abilities to  
>someone who claims to be psychic but not really.  Thanks and talk at you later. 
 
Certainly Acting, Persuasion, and maybe Oratory; a high Presence would also be well-advised. Psychology, to help figure out what the person is really looking for.  Speed Reading, Cramming, and Eidetic Memory would be useful for those psychics who have ways to look up information about their clients quickly.   
 
Note that the "fraudulent psychic" uses many of the same skills as stage magicians; another related field would be the fraudulent faith healer.  James Randi, "The Amazing Randi", is a former stage magician who has unmasked several faith healers and self-proclaimed psychics who have used these skills to perpetrate fraud; he's written about them in several books, such as "Flim-Flam!" and "The Faith Healers". 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 15:39:36 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Punching People Into Orbit 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>> how about this? the 'punch' is actually a throw. will that give  
>> signifigantly more distance? 
 
>This is a good idea, but unfortunately the throw chart is only slightly 
>less screwed up in Hero/Champs than knockback.  It works out so that 
>someone with a 100 STR could throw someone about a tenth of a mile. 
>Impressive, but not impressive enough for seriously strong bricks like 
>the Hulk. 
 
How about this, then: 
 
# Extra BODY    Extra STR for    Distance 
on KB Roll      Throwing         of Throw/KB 
 
    1           0                    1" 
    2           5                    2" 
    3           10                   4" 
    4           15                   8" 
    5           20                  16" 
    6           25                  32" 
    7           30                  64" 
    8           35                 128" 
    9           40                 256" 
   10           45                 512" 
   11           50                1024" 
   12           55                2048" 
   13           60                4096" 
   etc          etc                etc 
 
Note that 'throwing' is for a standing throw. For a running throw, each 10" 
of velocity adds 5 extra STR for throwing. A prone throw is done at 5 less 
extra STR. 
 
Now, if this generates too much knockback for your tastes, throw in an extra 
Knockback die to soak it up. Or you could rank it by every 2 points of 
knockback, not every one. 
 
Anyway, using this chart, someone with 60 STR could pick up and throw an 
opponant (100 kg, 50 extra STR) about 2 kilometers. Is that unreasonable for 
someone who can lift 100 tons? 
 
Or, that 60 STR brick could punch for 12D6 damage, generating (on average) 
12 BODY, which becomes 5 BODY after KB dice, for 16" of Knockback, 
definitely more in the superhero vein. And there's always the chance for 
that spectacular shot that flings your opponant several kilometers. Damage 
dice from throws/KB should be generated from the Knockback BODY or Extra 
STR, is suppose. 
 
I guess you could call this chart "superheroic" throwing/KB. The stuff in 
the BBB could be used for "cinematic" knockback, and knockdown for 
"realistic" combat. 
 
BTW, the throwing part is fairly consistant with the BBB up to 20 extra STR. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 15:09:10 -0600 
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net> 
Cc: jameseasy@aol.com 
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting (AGAIN) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
On 1/1/98, at 9:49 AM, qts wrote:  
>>This brings up a problem with shapeshifting that I came across recently. I'm  
>>converting the old AD&D treasure list over to Hero System, for use in a Fantasy  
>>Hero campaign. One of the hardest items to deal with yet has been a potion of  
>>polymorph. You're not supposed to put the pool cost of a VPP into a focus, but  
>>how then do you build the potion? Without ANY sort of limitation on the Pool,  
>>the fact that it is independant, or one use ever, doesn't make it cheaper. Its  
>>bad enough an alchemist has to pay 5 character points to build the average  
>>potion (this needs fixing bad IMHO), but 60 or 70??? No way! 
> 
>A potion is just an effect/spell with the Trigger advantage - the 
>Trigger being 'Drinking the Potion'. No need for an Independent Effect 
>at all, so the alchemist pays NO POINTS: he just casts the spell as 
>normal, with the Trigger advantage, and lets the drinker decide upon 
>the end result. 
 
It's not quite that easy.  You'd also need UBO to give the other person a power which he can control.  Attacks against the person who drinks the potion (such as poisons, or a potion which shapechanges the drinker into a frog whether he wants to be one or not) would have to take UAO, since otherwise the attack would only happen to the object the trigger was placed upon.  There are also some other complications when designing potions: 
 
Time for Preparation? Extra Time would seem to be indicated here, but I don't think it's worth the full value of the Limitation because you can spend the extra time days, weeks, etc. ahead of time with Trigger.  A better solution would be taking the Requires Skill Roll (for the appropriate potion-making skill) and requiring the alchemist to take a set amount of time to create the potion, which could be moved up and down the time chart for appropriate bonuses or penalties (taking your time or hurrying the process). 
 
Technically, the potion-maker should be able to prepare as many potions as he has time and materials to make.  This is analagous to the way that bows and arrows are made, which is as 1 recoverable charge.  I'm not entirely happy with this, and would build potions as expendable foci.  This means that the GM would have to regulate how many potions the character can carry around with him at any one time, however; he could carry a few vials in a pouch, say, more in a backpack, quite a few in a handcart.  Bear in mind, though, that potions may spoil over time or in certain environmental conditions, or that bottles may break, or react unpredictably if carried in anything but glass... 
 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Units of Measure 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 31 Dec 1997 16:34:10 -0500 
Lines: 30 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes: 
 
VL> Actually, I've always wondered if anyone else saw the wierdness that 
VL> the game uses INCHES two represent two METERS. :] (I think this is just 
VL> because of the convienience of (") vs. (cm) as abbreviations, 
VL> personally ...) 
 
Nope... it goes back to wargaming, specifically the scale used for 
man-to-man combat.  A very large man -- approximately 2m -- was represented 
by a 25mm figure -- approximately 1 inch.  Add in the fact that 
professional printing uses a unit of measurement based on the inch, and you 
have comercial maps printed with 1 inch squares or hexes rather than 25mm. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 15:47:42 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Subject: Re: Units of Measure 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> Actually, I've always wondered if anyone else saw the wierdness that the 
> game uses INCHES to represent two METERS. :]  (I think this is just because 
> of the convienience of (") vs. (cm) as abbreviations, personally ...) 
 
Could be that lots of hexmaps are printed with inch-hexes, and 1 cm-wide 
hexes don't make a good scale for figurines. It also eliminates some 
ambiguity; we know that inches are the out-of-game metric, and that metric 
units refer to real in-game distances. 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 15:55:29 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: KAs and the Stun Lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
> > 	Roll Bod as normal.  Roll the Stun Multiple Die, then compare it 
> > to this chart: 
> > 
> > 	1 -- 1* 
> > 	2 -- 2* 
> > 	3 -- 2* 
> > 	4 -- 3* 
> > 	5 -- 3* 
> > 	6 -- 4* 
> 
> Definitely better, but I hate the idea of charts... 
 
 
	It's easier than the Hit Location chart, which I'm trying to 
avoid.  And I think it's simple enough that it'd be second nature in a few 
game sessions. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 15:57:16 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> F> Well, would it be fair to say that if a character had Desolid, only vs 
> F> fire, 
> 
> No.  Desolidification does not work this way.  It does not make one immune 
> to damage, it makes one insubstantial to the physical world/plane/whatever 
> you want to call it. 
 
 
	We've been through this.  It makes one able to move through 
objects and gives one the ability to ignore attacks. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:01:38 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
> > The Stun lotto goes a long way to simulating that wide range of effect. 
> 
> Well, if the stun multiplier were applied _after_ defenses that would be true. 
> However, a bullet hitting a bulletproof vest (and not going through) is not 
> particularly more random than being whacked by a guy with a club. 
 
 
 
	However, applying the multiple after defenses would result in no 
stun in this case.  Definately not true to form where being a KO is quite 
possible, 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:09:03 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: KAs and the Stun Lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> instead of the current +1/2.  Or, more likely, call the +1/4 level (as 
> given on this chart) +1/2 STUN Multiple. 
>    Otherwise I agree that this may very well be worth including in Hero5, 
> if only as an optional alternate rule. 
 
 
	Well thank you.  I try. 
 
	I've considered the straight X3 and the roll as normal damage, but 
haven't liked the loss of randomness.  The Hit Locations chart is too 
arbitrary and annoying. 
 
	This is an easy chart based on pairs of numbers. 
 
	1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 
	  ^ 	    ^ 
	Range of a normal KA stun mult. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 31 Dec 1997 17:14:03 -0500 
Lines: 25 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
TRG> 	We've been through this.  It makes one able to move through 
TRG> objects and gives one the ability to ignore attacks. 
 
I'm sorry, but that is not what my books describe as the primary effect of 
Desolidification. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:19:54 -0500 
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net 
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
Geoffrey Speare wrote: 
 
> > I would be interested in knowing what it is about the stun multiple that 
> > people feel it needs to be changed. Randomness? Magnitude? Fear of being 
> > unconscious before their enemies? 
> 
> As a GM, I have a problem with the way the stun lotto makes killing weapons 
> inordinately effective as compared to normal weapons of similar magnitude, 
> _against high defense targets_. The typical example is a 250 supers game, 
> where most if not all players have a lot of resistant defense. Attacks were 
> around 12DC, defenses in the 20-30 range. Say the group faces a bunch of 
> agents armed with real-world rifles (2d6K). These rifles have the potential to 
> do 60 STUN; if there are enough agents (and/or if the rifles are machine guns 
> instead), someone will probably go down. In a genre where supers usually laugh 
> off bullets, this doesn't make sense. On the other hand, if the agents were 
> carrying normal weapons of equivalent pointage (6d6N), the maximum STUN would 
> be 36 -- enough to sting -- but the chance of getting to that level is 
> dramatically less than for the KA. Finally, to make oneself immune to damage 
> from that 2d6 RKA requires 60 PD, which would make campaign-level normal 
> attacks (12d6N) all but useless against the character. 
> 
> Geoff Speare 
 
  As a GM I have found that the way that KAs work now tends to keep the players 
honest. Defenses in my campaign are such that most heros have a healthy respect 
for guns. While none of them are in any danger of being killed from a 9mm or .45 
hand gun  they still sting. I try to keep the the characters grounded in 
"reality"(a term I normally hate to use when talking about RPGs). You shouldn't 
ignore the agents with Uzis just to get to Mr. Big. Thats why they are there, to 
slow you down. Why bring the stun more into line with normal attacks? Why not just 
use normal attacks if the numbers are so important.? 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:20:01 -0600 
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org> 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
ajackson writes: 
>rat writes: 
>> For all the complaints about the Stun lotto, it actually does reasonably 
>> mirror they way that "real" killing damage works.  To wit, gunshot wounds 
>> may in and of themselves be relatively minor, but cause tremendous systemic 
>> shock (Stun damage) -- and then the victim slowly bleeds to death.  Or they 
>> may cause great ammounts of tissue disruption but not much shock trauma. 
>>  
>> The Stun lotto goes a long way to simulating that wide range of effect. 
>  
>Well, if the stun multiplier were applied _after_ defenses that would be true.  
>However, a bullet hitting a bulletproof vest (and not going through) is not 
>particularly more random than being whacked by a guy with a club. 
 
That's exactly the "logic" I used when creating my variant KA system. 
Unfortunately, it's a little complicated (but a lot less complicated 
than the original version I thought up...): 
 
 
                            Simple version: 
 
For each pip of BODY that gets past defenses, KAs do 1d6 of STUN, no defense. 
 
    Example: an Empire Saboteur shoots Our Hero while he's out of 
             his armor, rolling 8 BODY on 2d6K.  Our Hero takes 8d6 
             STUN from systemic shock.  As he raises his tiny (6 PD) 
             emergency force field, he takes another 8 BODY shot, for 
             which he only takes 2d6 additional STUN.  A third shot of 
             5 BODY bounces completely off of his force field. 
 
 
                         Slightly more complex: 
 
Additionally, KAs have "impact" STUN of 2x BODY.  +STUNx adds to this 
constant 'x2' STUN multiple, and extra STR/Maneuver DCs (beyond those 
used to double a KA's base damage) can also be added to the impact 
total. 
 
    Example: as above, but Our Hero takes an additional 8 STUN from the 
             first KA's impact (he has 8 PD).  The second shot does 
             16 - (6+8) = 2 STUN. 
 
    Example: Ogre picks up a knife (1d6 HKA), puts the tip up against 
             Foxbat's chest, and punches it.  He can only use 15 of his 
             60 STR to increase killing damage, so he rolls 2d6K, and 
             counts those dice twice in an effectively-13d6 normal 
             attack.  Then he uses the result of those 2d6 again, as 
             described above (1d6 STUN per BODY that penetrates). 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:26:28 -0600 
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org> 
Subject: Re: KAs and the Stun Lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>> 	Roll Bod as normal.  Roll the Stun Multiple Die, then compare it 
>>> to this chart: 
>>> 
>>> 	1 -- 1* 
>>> 	2 -- 2* 
>>> 	3 -- 2* 
>>> 	4 -- 3* 
>>> 	5 -- 3* 
>>> 	6 -- 4* 
>> 
>> Definitely better, but I hate the idea of charts... 
> 
>	It's easier than the Hit Location chart, which I'm trying to 
>avoid.  And I think it's simple enough that it'd be second nature in a few 
>game sessions. 
 
Or buy an "averaging die" (2 3 3 4 4 5), and use it in your 1d6-1 STUN mod... 
 
  Donald 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:36:46 -0600 
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org> 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Ugh.  That Ogre example was really poorly worded. 
 
Ogre has 60 STR and a "borrowed" 1d6 HKA. 
 
He uses 15 of his 60 STR to increase the HKA to 2d6, and the other 45 STR 
goes into regular "punch" damage.  Under my system, one way to handle this 
is to count the KA dice as normal dice, but to count them twice.  So if 
one were to roll two sixes on the KA dice, that would count as 12 BODY 
of killing, and two sets of 12 STUN/4 BODY normal dice, which you would 
add directly to the other 9d6 of normal damage from Ogre's hamfist. 
Say that added up to 30 STUN and 8 BODY. 
 
Impact damage would be: 
12+12+30 = 54 STUN, 
4+4+8 = 16 BODY 
 
Systemic damage would be: 
(12-rPD, min 0) BODY, 
(12-rPD, min 0)d6 STUN. 
 
  Donald 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"Tim R. Gilberg\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 97 22:36:53  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: KAs and the Stun Lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 31 Dec 1997 02:36:44 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
> 
>	O.K.  I'm re-sending this for some more debate.  I think it may be 
>good enough to see space in 5th ed, but I'm a little biased. 
> 
> 
>			-Tim 
> 
>	I've stayed on the side of keeping KAs as they are for some time, 
>and I will continue as such.  I think the Stun Lotto effect is important 
>for KAs to represent the over or under usefullness of the power.  I've 
>also said it works best when using the hit location charts, as all powers 
>then have the chance for the large or small stuns. 
> 
>	However, I like the non-Hit Location system.  For one, it's 
>simpler.  For another, it allows EBs to be much more dependable and KAs 
>much more variable, a status quo that I really like.  There's some nice 
>difference between the two. 
> 
>	Yesterday, I thought up a new way to handle KA stun multiples.  It 
>keeps the Stun Lotto, but lessens it.  It also makes Increased Stun Mult 
>both more and less effective. 
> 
>	Roll Bod as normal.  Roll the Stun Multiple Die, then compare it 
>to this chart: 
> 
>	1 -- 1* 
>	2 -- 2* 
>	3 -- 2* 
>	4 -- 3* 
>	5 -- 3* 
>	6 -- 4* 
 
<snip> 
 
>	What does everyone think?  I think I'm switching immediately, 
>myself.  I think this will give KAs a much better feel. 
 
It has the disadvantage of not being simple.  
 
IMO the real problem of the Stun Multiplier is that it is a 
*multiplier*. This is what gives it the huge range. 
 
[Thinking out loud] 
 
How about reducing the cost of a KA and giving it a StunX of 1? Then 
people could add stun as necessary. 
 
Let's see what happens with 50 AP... 
 
If 10 pts/d6, +1/4 per +1 StunX 
 
10d6 EB averages 10 BODY, 35 Stun. Max 20 BODY, 60 Stun. 
 5d6 KA averages 17 BODY, 17 Stun. Max 30 BODY, 30 Stun. 
 
With a +1 StunX (+1/4) 
 
 4d6-1 KA averages 13 BODY, 26 Stun. Max 23 BODY, 46 Stun. 
 
With a +2 StunX (+1/2) 
 
 3d6+1 KA averages 12 BODY, 36 Stun. Max 19 BODY, 57 Stun. 
 
Note that this is not dissimilar to a present-day KA 
 
With a +4 StunX (+1) 
 
 21/2d6 KA averages 9 BODY, 45 Stun. Max 15 BODY, 75 Stun. 
 
Yes, I like it. 
 
We could be really bold, say that if you want to do damage, use a KA 
as above, and get rid of EB. This has the advantage of clearing up one 
of the major troubles with the Hero System: the way damage is 
calculated. So how does STR get worked in? Well, it makes it a lot 
easier for the hero to say, "I want to go for a killing blow" and get 
1d6KA per 10pts STR, or equally, "I just want to knock him out" and get 
1d6KA+4Stunx per 20pts STR. As such it has the advantage of obviating 
the problem of the accidental haymaker splat critical. 
 
This needs a little work, and so I open it to the floor. 
 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 97 22:40:03  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: New Advantage:Engulfing 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 29 Dec 1997 09:16:49 -0800, Lizard wrote: 
 
>This idea grew out of the thread on foci. An Engulfing (+1/2) attack 
>ignores hit location, instead 'hitting' the entire body, or at least all of 
>the body facing the attacker. Armor is averaged. Any external foci, or foci 
>under armor if the armor is penetrated, are considered to be 'hit' by the 
>attack. (There are already rules for this in terms of falling damage, etc, 
>IIRC, but no advantage to specifically model this type of attack. Or am I 
>forgetting something? Books are not handy...) 
 
Don't we already have this in Area Effect? 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:40:10 -0800 
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com> 
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>People who are staring at the wrong end of a gun barrell ought not to be  
>thinking, "I hope I don't get knocked out..." they ought to be thinking,  
>"I hope I don't die..." 
 
People, normal people, ones without resistant defences, facing a killing 
attack are thinking "I hope I don't die", even more so if you are using 
the optional bleeding rules (the ones that let you bleed to death from 
any damage at all) 
Supers facing a killing attack probably have enough  resistant defence 
to ignore the body from any attack, however if you want supers in you 
game to fear killing attacks you have the option to set the maximun 
resistant defence lower that it is in an average game. Set the resistant 
defence maximum to 10 in a 12dc game and your players will fear killing 
attacks. 
 
I personally don't think that the stun lotto is all that bad, as a GM I 
roll my dice behind a screen so if I get a dice roll that is going to 
derail the game I can "modify" it, and if the players get lucky, then 
the players get lucky. 
 
The probability curve for a killing attack isn't really a curve, at 
least not of the neat smooth bell curve type that we all remember fondly 
from our D&D days, it's heavily weighted towards the low end, and there 
are lots of numbers that can't be rolled. Sure you can roll 120 stun on 
a 4d6 killing attack, but your odds of doing so are only 1 in 7776, not 
exactly something I'd want to count on in combat, and while a 4d6 
killing attack might penetrate 13.4 stun against 30 defences on average 
it does so in a 0,0,0,72 manner, killing attacks (at least in my view) 
balance themselves by being unreliable, yes eventually I will roll big 
stun and take you out, but it might take 3 to 5 shots to get it, and in 
the mean time Mr 12d6 normal attack is doing 12 stun a shot to me, at 
this point its a matter of do you want to be Mr. slow but sure, or Mr 
fast but unreliable. Do you want players to shrug off the agents then 
give them 9d6 normal blasters, if you want them to worry about the 
agents then give them 3d6 killing blasters. It's more a matter of how 
and where killing attacks are used, then it is a matter of killing 
attacks being very unbalanced. On the other hand if you are using the 
"role a 3 on your to hit roll, then do maximum damage" critical hit, or 
any other do maximum damage critical hit rule, for gods sake, only let 
them do max body, still make them roll the stun mult, as this does 
unbalance killing attacks. 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 97 22:49:44  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting (AGAIN) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:48:15 +0000, Stirling Westrup wrote: 
 
>So Sayeth E. David Miller <gold_phoenix@cyberun.net&> 
> 
>>  I have played shapeshifting characters in many different campaigns, 
>> including some of my own, and a few PBEMs.  There are two "street-legal" 
>> ways to deal with such characters that I have seen work very well. 
>> Everyone has mentioned the almighty linked VPP already, so I won't go into 
>> horrific detail on that method. Suffice it to say that I got approval to buy 
>> down characteristics that lowered in other forms, within the VPP, and use 
>> those points for other powers in the form. 
>>  However, there is another way to do what it is you are seeking to 
>> do, for the most part.  Buy the shapeshifting, and a linked Multipower. 
> 
>This brings up a problem with shapeshifting that I came across recently. I'm  
>converting the old AD&D treasure list over to Hero System, for use in a Fantasy  
>Hero campaign. One of the hardest items to deal with yet has been a potion of  
>polymorph. You're not supposed to put the pool cost of a VPP into a focus, but  
>how then do you build the potion? Without ANY sort of limitation on the Pool,  
>the fact that it is independant, or one use ever, doesn't make it cheaper. Its  
>bad enough an alchemist has to pay 5 character points to build the average  
>potion (this needs fixing bad IMHO), but 60 or 70??? No way! 
 
A potion is just an effect/spell with the Trigger advantage - the 
Trigger being 'Drinking the Potion'. No need for an Independent Effect 
at all, so the alchemist pays NO POINTS: he just casts the spell as 
normal, with the Trigger advantage, and lets the drinker decide upon 
the end result. 
 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"Roger A. Wesson, Jr.\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 97 22:51:27  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Stats for small animals, pests, etc 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:48:10 +0100, Roger A. Wesson, Jr. wrote: 
 
>  I am designing a NPC tenatively named Pest Control.  I want him to be 
>able to 'call' various pests which will follow his commands.  I will be using 
>Summon with a linked Mind Control for this, but I need to know how many 
>points I'll need to put into Summon. 
>  I envision PC being able to call forth swarms (1"-3" radius) of insects, packs of rats, bats, and maybe a handful of larger pests (feral dogs,etc).  Is there 
>any published book with stats for such things?  Or can people make suggestions for what these animals' stats and cost would be. 
 
Could you not say that the pests are just SFX? 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org> 
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> 
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 23:07:22 +0000 
Subject: Magic Shapeshifting Potions 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
So Sayeth Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net&> 
 
> On Monday, December 29, 1997 3:22 PM, Stirling Westrup wrote: 
> That said, do not put points from a VPP into an Independent, one 
> charge only forever Focus. That is just a way to waste points. One 
> charge, perhaps, but not Independent, and definitely not one charge 
> only forever. 
 
So how do you model the classical fantasy 'magic potion', such that a player 
character can find one in a chest and be able to use it. Drinking it lets the  
hero turn into any animal he wants, for up to 1 hour. 
 
And after you've modeled the potion, how do you model the alchemist who makes a  
living creating and selling such potions? 
 
This problem seems to be a perennial one in Fantasy Hero games. 
 
--  
 Stirling Westrup  |  Use of the Internet by this poster 
 sti@cam.org       |  is not to be construed as a tacit 
                   |  endorsement of Western Technological 
                   |  Civilization or its appurtenances. 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 97 23:08:47  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:10:33 -0800, Lizard wrote: 
 
>I would like to start a *civilized* discussion on the powers/conceptions 
>Hero doesn't presently handle very well, as a guideline for potential new 
>powers/advantages/limitations/frameworks in HS5. 
> 
>a)Serial Form:This is the character who goes through a process of total 
>bodily (and sometimes mental) transformation from adventure to adventure, 
>but who cannot change at will or (usually) control his incarnation. 
>Examples include 'Dial H For Hero', the Sleeper from Wild Cards, and 
>(somewhat) the Molecule Man (he used to possess bodies until he learned to 
>make one for himself). (To do it with a VPP would mean all the characters 
>physical attributes, including figured, would need to be bought through the 
>VPP. Also skills and sometimes perks.) 
 
For the Sleeper, skills and knowledge stayed the same, as did Psych 
Lims, but basically this was a 'blank multiform'. 
 
>b)Slipperiness, or other movement-impairing powers (Drain running doesn't 
>really cut it) 
 
This depends upon whether the slipperiness is active or passive. 
 
>c)Immunity/invulerability:I know this is a major 'stop sign' power, but 
>there's no real way to make someone who cannot be harmed by a specific 
>special effect, such as a Fire Elemental who is simply immune to any flame 
>based attacks. Yes, you can buy Damage Reduction (Only vs. flame) and 
>armor/ED(Only vs. flame) and get a similair effect. Superhero and fantasy 
>genres both have characters who 'cannot be harmed' by any means except 
>(kryptonite/cold iron/the tears of a maiden/etc) 
 
Dead easy: just extend the Damage Reduction chart to 100% and apply 
appropriate Limitations. 
 
>e)Small stunts:Super-speedsters cleaning their room in half a second. 
>(Cosmetic Transform) Stretching characters picking locks without lockpicks. 
>Etc. A VPP is often too flexible, and buying every stunt can be expensive. 
>Some form of 'power skill' system to stimulate these kind of one-time 
>'gimmicks' might be handy. 
 
Either give this as a freebie or have a skill like 'Superspeed Tricks' 
 
>f)Time control -- it's virtually impossible to 'stop time' in Hero, or, for 
>that matter, speed it up. You can buy a lot of different powers with a 
>'time control' effect, but in theory, all possible effects of stopping time 
>should happen 'at once'.  
 
SFX, SFX, SFX. 
 
>And a few minor points... 
> 
>Invisibility to a non-targetting sense ought to be a lot cheaper. A vampire 
>who leaves behind no scent shouldn't pay as much as one who can move 
>silently, who in turn should pay less than one who can't be seen at all. 
 
Why? Just because smell isn't a human's targetting sense doesn't mean 
that Dr Van Helsing can't bring along a bloodhound to track the vampire 
who hasn't paid his points. 
 
>There should be a way to summon specific individuals. Sorcerors call up 
>demons by name. The witches on 'Bewitched' could get Ben Franklin or Abe 
>Lincoln. (Which brings up another point -- can you buy Summoning with 
>Transdimensional to Summon beings from different times?) 
 
This is usually a Physical Limitation (usually powerful and 
extra-dimensional) on the being concerned. Summoning a particular 
person is usually verboten for good reasons, though summoning a dead 
person is a different matter - try Transdimensional clairsentience with 
the person appearing being SFX. 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 18:40:21 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
> TRG> 	We've been through this.  It makes one able to move through 
> TRG> objects and gives one the ability to ignore attacks. 
> 
> I'm sorry, but that is not what my books describe as the primary effect of 
> Desolidification. 
 
 
	Nope, those are the game effects granted by the power.  Use those 
game effects to fit any SFX you are trying to work with.  Are you trying 
to limit Hero with default SFX? 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 18:42:28 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: KAs and the Stun Lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> >	It's easier than the Hit Location chart, which I'm trying to 
> >avoid.  And I think it's simple enough that it'd be second nature in a few 
> >game sessions. 
> 
> Or buy an "averaging die" (2 3 3 4 4 5), and use it in your 1d6-1 STUN mod... 
 
 
	Close, but not quite.  (1 2 2 3 3 4).  That gets rid of that nasty 
5 on the upper end, which is why I like it.  BTW, I've never actually 
seen averaging dice. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:47:46 -0800 
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com> 
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>                            Simple version: 
> 
>For each pip of BODY that gets past defenses, KAs do 1d6 of STUN, no  
>defense. 
 
Example: Mr Brick has 30 resistant defence, Mr. Brick gets shot with a 
5d6 killing attack, the 5d6 killing atack rolls maximum body of 30, no 
body penetrates defences, Mr brick (who has average defences for a 12dc 
game) can completly ignore a 5d6 killing attack (15dc) it can NEVER hurt 
him.  
 Example Mr Normal Guy has 0 resistant defence he gets shot with a 4d6 
killing atack  it does maximum damage. Mr Normal Guy takes 144 stun 
(normaly max stun on a 4d6 killing attack is 120) 
 
>                   Slightly more complex: 
> 
>Additionally, KAs have "impact" STUN of 2x BODY.  +STUNx adds to this 
>constant 'x2' STUN multiple, and extra STR/Maneuver DCs (beyond those 
>used to double a KA's base damage) can also be added to the impact 
>total. 
 
 
In the above example Mr. Brick takes 30 stun from the best roll possible 
on a 5d6 killing attack (75 active points) (a 10d6 normal attack (50 
active points) can also do 30 stun to him on its best possible roll). 
Mr normal guy takes 192 stun from the 4d6 killing attack. (of course he 
also took 24 body so the stun is the least of his worries) 
 
Thus at the heroic level killing attacks do to much stun, and at the 
superheroic level they do no stun. 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:50:30 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wednesday, December 31, 1997 7:55 AM, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
 
> 
>When analyzing probabilities in Champions, we can't limit ourselves 
to 
>averages. If a player came up to you and said he wanted an "unstable" 
OCV, 
>such that half the time it would be +100, and half the time -100, 
he'd be 
>laughed away... despite his argument that "his average OCV is 0." 
When 
>figuring weighted averages appropriate to Champions math, we define a 
>point for which all values at that point or lower are considered 
>functionally equivalent--this can be straight failure, in the case of 
an 
>attack or skill roll, or insignificant or "ping" damage in the case 
of 
>damage rolls... At that point, you weigh all elements below it as if 
they 
>were equivalent to the point you picked. 
> 
>If 0 OCV's were the point at which you had such little hope of 
hitting 
>that anything less would be functionally equivalent, then you weigh 
all 
>possibilities below that as if they were 0. Our "unstable OCV" 
munchkin 
>now has a weighted average OCV of 50... 
> 
 
 
Close, but your weighting is biased. You should also calculate the 
point at which a OCV is so high that anything higher is functionally 
equivalent. Lets take an extreme number and say a 25 OCV. This gives 
you a weighted average of 12.5 OCV. High, yes, but not as extreme as 
the situation you make out. 
 
To do this properly, calculate the point at which your OCV gives you a 
hit only on a 3- under any normal circumstances in your campaign, and 
the point at which your OCV hits on a 17- under any normal 
circumstances. Then, using these numbers, do your "weighted average". 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: "\"Marc Seebass\" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net> 
        \"Chris/Jessica Lee/Hunter\"" <Warshrike@busprod.com&> 
        "Dave Vacca" <vacca@intr.net&> "David E. Miller" <seleena@fred.net&> 
        "Elin Winkler" <RadioComix@aol.com&> "Fred Perry" <fredgdp@aol.com&> 
        "iprins" <jprins@interhop.net&> "Jeff Johnston" <jeffj@io.com&> 
        "John Barret" <attila@cybercomm.net&> 
        "Kevin Swarthout" <darkwraith@worldnet.att.ne&> 
        "t>, 
        \"KOR Mailing List\" <kor@edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca&> 
        \"Rob Rutherford\" <mirage@hpserv.keh.utulsa.edu&> 
        \"Diane Black Seebass\"" <kor@edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca> 
Subject: Happy New Year 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 20:26:39 -0600 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Just wanted to wish everyone a happy new year and a fresh start. 
 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 20:36:01 -0600 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net 
Organization: None 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I think the stun lotto is great for Supers. It really fits the Genre, 
however for heroic games such as a Fantasy campaign the Stun lotto 
really doesn't work.  
	I have taken to using the hit location table to determine the amount of 
stun damage done from a Killing attack. 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 21:04:40 -0600 
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
qts said: 
>On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:10:33 -0800, Lizard wrote: 
>>There should be a way to summon specific individuals. Sorcerors call up 
>>demons by name. The witches on 'Bewitched' could get Ben Franklin or Abe 
>>Lincoln. (Which brings up another point -- can you buy Summoning with 
>>Transdimensional to Summon beings from different times?) 
> 
>This is usually a Physical Limitation (usually powerful and 
>extra-dimensional) on the being concerned.  
 
I don't understand your reasoning about this.  Why should this be a Physical Limitation on the being involved? Shouldn't it be some kind of Advantage on the Summoning Power instead of a Disad? 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 19:33:33 -0800 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wednesday, December 31, 1997 1:53 PM, mcallahan wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>The probability curve for a killing attack isn't really a curve, at 
>least not of the neat smooth bell curve type that we all remember 
fondly 
>from our D&D days, it's heavily weighted towards the low end, and 
there 
>are lots of numbers that can't be rolled. Sure you can roll 120 stun 
on 
>a 4d6 killing attack, but your odds of doing so are only 1 in 7776, 
not 
>exactly something I'd want to count on in combat 
<snip> 
 
The equivalent normal damage attack is a 12d6 attack. The chances of 
hitting the maximum possible on this attack is  2,176,782,336, and the 
possible damage is only 72. 
 
The chances of rolling ridiculously high are extremely slim, true. 
However, that doesn't change the fact that you can roll far more, and 
with much greater chances, with killing attacks. 
 
A 4d6 RKA has, with an average BODY roll, a 1 in 6 chance of doing 62 
pts of STUN. The odds of rolling much higher STUN with killing attacks 
as opposed to normal attacks is definitely significant. 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:59:23 EST 
Subject: Re: The Tick universe 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> Has anybody developed the characters from The Tick for use with 
> Champions? 
 
  Now *this* is something I'd like to see! 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 23:11:30 EST 
Subject: Re: Using skills... 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> Additionally, in the case of First Aid, there should be a rule which allows 
for saving 
> a person by continuous effort for hours, or even days. 
 
  There is. Use the bonuses for Extra Time. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 21:17:32 -0700 
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
Subject: Re: Titanic 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Filksinger wrote: 
>  
> On Monday, December 29, 1997 8:01 AM, Ken Crist wrote: 
>  
> > 
> >>> Eh?  Something against good acting?  He's been nominated for an 
> >>>Oscar two years ago and a Golden Globe for this role. 
> >> 
> >>No offense, but under the right circumstances, I could barf on a 
> sidewalk 
> >>and win a Golden Globe. It's a publicity tool, not a real 
> accomplishment. 
> > 
> > And if the right PR company picked it up, you'd get the Oscar 
> >as well. Neither of these awards means anything about the ability of 
> >the winner. 
>  
> That is absolutely not true. A good performance is often overlooked, 
> that is true. Both the Oscar's and the Golden Globe can be influenced 
> by publicity and other factors. That does not alter the fact that _if 
> you win_ the Golden Globe, your performance was almost certainly good, 
> and if you win the Oscar, it _definitely_ was. Maybe not the best, or 
> even better than those not nominated, but definitely good. 
>  
To bring this back on topic; 
 
If you are running a cinema campaign (as described in one of the 
almanacs) and you win one of the above mentioned awards is it a perk? 
 
And how would you buy the 'big star influence' thing; the ability of a 
star to get things changed in the movie his way?  (look at Costner and 
Waterworld) 
 
8^) 
 
--  
-Mhoram 
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 
 two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright 
 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 23:35:06 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Subject: Re: Using skills... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> > Additionally, in the case of First Aid, there should be a rule which allows 
> for saving 
> > a person by continuous effort for hours, or even days. 
>   There is. Use the bonuses for Extra Time. 
 
Right... but I think the question is a little more complicated. I think I 
would prefer a model where the time it took (or is going to take) to 
perform a task or realize you haven't got a chance is usually determined 
*by* the attempt, instead of before the attempt. 
 
(Is your suggestion something akin to, if you missed the roll by two, just 
work 25 times longer and you can succeed?) 
 
For example, if the default time to pick a lock is, say, 1 
minute... and our hero "Locksmith" declares that he's going to try to pick 
the lock to the door of the Viper Self-Incriminating Documents Library, 
what should he do? It's really important that he gets in. He could say 
that he's going to take an hour to get an extra time bonus. But does that 
mean he only gets one attempt at the end of the hour? As mentioned 
previously, what if the Viper goons come back? It makes sense that with a 
good roll the effort should take less time to be successful. And what if 
he just keeps making 1 minute tries? 
 
I'd like to see a good, cohesive, approach to skill rolls that makes just 
about all applications of skill "continuous efforts"... where the time to 
completion is determined by the roll. How to do it? 
 
From: "Mikhael Weitzel" <weitzelg@softdisk.com> 
Subject: Fw: The Tick universe 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 23:39:23 -0600 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: Mikhael Weitzel <weitzelg@softdisk.com> 
To: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wednesday, December 31, 1997 11:35 PM 
Subject: Re: The Tick universe 
 
 
>Somewhere deep in the internet is a Tick character for Champions.  Nothing 
>else, just the character.  I know I downloaded it but that was two moves 
>ago.  I don't know If I still have it.  But He is out there. 
>-----Original Message----- 
>From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
>To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org> 
>Date: Wednesday, December 31, 1997 10:23 PM 
>Subject: Re: The Tick universe 
> 
> 
>>> Has anybody developed the characters from The Tick for use with 
>>> Champions? 
>> 
>>  Now *this* is something I'd like to see! 
>> 
>>  Mark @ GRG 
>> 
> 
 
From:  
Subject: Fw: Happy New years 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 23:49:23 -0600 
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>-----Original Message-----</B><BR><B>From:  
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</B>Rodney Burden (E-mail) &lt;<A  
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list &lt;<A  
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Jennifer Cole &lt;<A  
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 21:55:49 -0800 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
Hash: SHA1 
 
At 08:59 AM 12/31/97 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>Spending 40 points does not render you immune to attacks & capable  
of 
>passing through objects.  It renders you insubstantial, and the rest  
of the 
>description amounts to the game effects of being insubstantial. If a  
given 
>construction does not result in the character being insubstantial,  
do not 
>pass go, do not collect $200, do not read the rest of the Desolid  
paragraphs. 
> 
Except that Desolid is often used, even in official sources, for  
powers which do NOT render the user insubstantial, such as a  
stretching character squeezing under a door. Just as Teleport is  
often used for forms of movement which do involve a character  
vanishing from point 'a' to reappear at point 'b', but which cannot  
be otherwise stimulated. (For example, running at lightspeed could be  
bought as Teleport) 
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Using skills... 
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:52:30 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wednesday, December 31, 1997 7:48 PM, GoldRushG 
 
 
>> Additionally, in the case of First Aid, there should be a rule 
which allows 
>for saving 
>> a person by continuous effort for hours, or even days. 
> 
>  There is. Use the bonuses for Extra Time. 
> 
 
 
That doesn't simulate what I am working for. Under the present system, 
I could try to save a person by taking an hour, and if it only took a 
minute, I still waste an hour. If a day would have succeeded, that's 
too bad, because he is dead, and there is no method for taking longer 
on something like that. Additionally, under the present system, a GM 
could decide that taking extra time beyond a short amount was useless, 
because the patient would die before the roll could be made. 
 
I want to be able to take "as long as it takes".  If I am willing to 
donate a week, I should be able to quite early if it actually only 
takes a hour. Additionally, if I am willing to donate a week, and I 
fail, it shouldn't necessarily take a week to discover this. If I say, 
"I am going to spend a week saving this person," does that guarantee 
that he lives a week, or does it mean that I keep trying after he is 
dead? 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 00:52:21 EST 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 97-12-31 10:36:08 EST, you write: 
 
<< > I would be interested in knowing what it is about the stun multiple that 
 > people feel it needs to be changed. Randomness? Magnitude? Fear of being 
 > unconscious before their enemies? 
  
 As a GM, I have a problem with the way the stun lotto makes killing weapons 
 inordinately effective as compared to normal weapons of similar magnitude, 
 _against high defense targets_. The typical example is a 250 supers game, 
 where most if not all players have a lot of resistant defense. Attacks were 
 around 12DC, defenses in the 20-30 range. Say the group faces a bunch of 
 agents armed with real-world rifles (2d6K). These rifles have the potential 
to 
 do 60 STUN; if there are enough agents (and/or if the rifles are machine guns 
 instead), someone will probably go down. In a genre where supers usually 
laugh 
 off bullets, this doesn't make sense. On the other hand, if the agents were 
 carrying normal weapons of equivalent pointage (6d6N), the maximum STUN would 
 be 36 -- enough to sting -- but the chance of getting to that level is 
 dramatically less than for the KA. Finally, to make oneself immune to damage 
 from that 2d6 RKA requires 60 PD, which would make campaign-level normal 
 attacks (12d6N) all but useless against the character.  
  >> 
 
I partially agree with you on the problem of a super not being able to bounce 
small arms fire, when that's the conception of the hero.  Though in my opinion 
those heros should be in the minority.  The majority of comic book heros don't 
bounce bullets.  Usually, if they aren't able to bounce them by sheer 
toughness, they're always drawn dodging them, but a good majority can't simply 
bounce them.  That said, I do think there should be a way to keep a punk with 
a handgun from taking your character out for the night, while still leaving 
other Killing Attacks (small or large) with the potential to do some major 
damage (and produce some major fear).  Maybe a solution would be to decide 
that handguns and other not-as-heavy in the stopping power KAs should take a 
Limitation of a Stun Cap... where 3 or 4 was the highest Stun Multiplier you 
could roll.   
 
'Lynx 
 
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 01:05:15 EST 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 97-12-31 11:33:59 EST, you write: 
 
<< Killing attacks should inspire fear, fear of death. Not fear of big stun  
 multipliers & being knocked out. That doesn't make sense. 
  
 People who are staring at the wrong end of a gun barrell ought not to be  
 thinking, "I hope I don't get knocked out..." they ought to be thinking,  
 "I hope I don't die..." 
  >> 
 
We may be coming from different campaigns.  In a Dark Champions style game, 
what you're saying makes a lot of sense, because death is a common occurrance. 
But in a four-color game, where the heros usually don't die unless they just 
do something incredibly stupid, stun damage *is* the biggest source of 
everyday fear.  There are other powers that can do bad things to your 
character, of course, but as far as being afraid of your character being taken 
out of the action, or captured, or whatever the case may be, Killing Attacks 
are the ones that can do it in one shot, and therefore, can cause the most 
fear.   
 
'Lynx 
 
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 01:21:38 EST 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 97-12-31 10:50:54 EST, you write: 
 
<< F> Well, would it be fair to say that if a character had Desolid, only vs 
 F> fire, 
  
 No.  Desolidification does not work this way.  It does not make one immune 
 to damage, it makes one insubstantial to the physical world/plane/whatever 
 you want to call it. >> 
 
 
Are you sure?  I've built, and seen others build characters made entirely of 
insubstantial energy bought using Desolidification--Physical Only.  In other 
words, if you were to split their Physical being and their Energy being apart, 
the Desolid would only apply to the Physcial being.  Their Energy half would 
act as per normal.  If what you're saying is true, though, they would have to 
buy Affect Physical World on their Energy Blasts, even though they are 
entirely substantial in the Energy realm, and can be hit by Energy Blasts. 
That doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the rules.  By being Desolid in the 
physical world, they can't get hit by physical attacks, but also can't affect 
the physical world... things like working a computer, picking up the about-to- 
go-off bomb, etc.  But as far as anything Energy is concerned, they aren't 
Desolid.  So if they aren't Desolid, why would they have to buy Affects 
Physical (Energy) World?  Champions is supposed to be the game that any 
concept can be worked out, and this seems the best way to make an energy being 
who isn't affected by the physical (tangible) world.  All others I can think 
of would allow an intangible being to be 'touched' if enough damage was done. 
 
'Lynx 
 
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 01:36:11 EST 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 97-12-31 15:33:17 EST, you write: 
 
<< >I don't think you'd need the +2 Advantage for a NND KA.  A regular NND KA 
(if 
 >it's allowed by the GM at all) is of the normal +1 Advantage, as long as it 
 >has the one common defense, or set of uncommon defenses.  The reason poisons 
 >and some venoms are written up with the +2 Advantage is because they've only 
 >got one uncommon defense.  Someone at HeroGames answered my question about 
 >this once with that explanation. 
  
    Under the current published wisdom, I think it'd still be called a +2, 
 because it's an NND (+1) that Does BODY (another +1). 
    
Where did you get the Does Body at +1?  I couldn't find it anywhere.  Under 
NND, it says that only with GM permission can an NND do Body, but doesn't 
assign any other Advantage to it.  In a Fantasy Hero book, they explained that 
for poisons, I believe, they assigned another +1 for the NND because it only 
had one uncommon defense, instead of a *set* of uncommon defenses.  That's the 
only mention of an additional +1 I've seen.  In the only published villians I 
know of, those European Enemies baddies, they use a +1, not a +2, for their 
NND Killing Attacks.   
 
'Lynx 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 03:41:39 EST 
Subject: Happy New Year! 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Apparently-To: <champ-l@omg.org> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
  Our best wishes for a joyous and prosperous 1998 to you and yours! May this 
be your best year ever! 
 
  Mark & Margaret Arsenault 
  Gold Rush Games 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 03:55:03 EST 
Subject: Re: Using skills... 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< But does that mean he only gets one attempt at the end of the hour? >> 
 
  Yes. 
 
<< As mentioned previously, what if the Viper goons come back? >> 
 
  Waste them. ;) 
 
<< It makes sense that with a good roll the effort should take less time to be 
successful. And what if he just keeps making 1 minute tries? >> 
 
  A single "1 minute try" nets just one roll. If that fails, he can continue 
working but doesn't get a new roll until the next step on the Time Chart (in 
this case 5 minutes). 
 
  I might suggest, as an alternate method, to allow a skill roll... For every 
two points *above* the roll needed, the time required is *decreased* one step. 
For every two points *below* what is needed it takes one step *longer* to 
accomplish. This could work well in a cinematic type game, IMO. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 04:12:24 EST 
Subject: Re: Using skills... 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< I want to be able to take "as long as it takes".>> 
 
  You cvould always let the GM make the roll in advance (and in secret), and 
then just let the story unfold... 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Using skills... 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 01:30:06 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thursday, January 01, 1998 12:05 AM, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>  I might suggest, as an alternate method, to allow a skill roll... 
For every 
>two points *above* the roll needed, the time required is *decreased* 
one step. 
>For every two points *below* what is needed it takes one step 
*longer* to 
>accomplish. This could work well in a cinematic type game, IMO. 
> 
 
 
I think this is a good method. Additionally, you should note that a GM 
has the right to declare a rock-bottom minimum time to a task. If 
replacing a starter motor takes an hour, and you make your 14- 
Mechanics roll by 10, you don't get it done in a phase. (Unless, of 
course, it is part of your powers.) 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: "Amy G. Crittenden" <theala@shore.intercom.net> 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net> 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:29:53 +0000 
Subject: Re: Building the "psychic"... 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> Hey everyone, I'm about to get involved in a Horror Hero games where 
> powers aren't allowed, but I thought I'd have some fun and build a 
> "psychic" fraud.  
>  Just wondering what kind of skills everyone would give and any 
>  abilities to  
> someone who claims to be psychic but not really.  Thanks and talk at 
> you later. 
 
One of the players in our Horror Hero game didn't give any specific  
skills, but instead used a Disadvantage "Insane--thinks he is  
pyschic."  That, and a good line of bullshit had all the other  
characters convinced.  Good roleplaying did the job there. 
Theala Sildorian 
www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html 
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page! 
 
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 07:38:04 -0600 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
Subject: Re: The Tick universe 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Roger A. Wesson, Jr. wrote: 
 
>   Has anybody developed the characters from The Tick for use with 
> Champions? 
>   I don't plan on using that setting normally, but it might make a good 
> break from the 'normal' superhero universe.  Like if the 'normal' 
> heroes get XDmoved into the Tick's world. Heh heh heh. 
 
Well..   several of my friends KIND of did... 
 
Another friend who hadn't GMed in awhile had agreed to run a game. 
Without telling him, the rest of us got together and built characters from 
The Tick, trying to model (as closely as we could) the characters in the 
cartoon. 
 
If I remember right, the characters we built were Sewer Urchin, Carpeted 
Man, Der Fleidermouse and American Maid.  Of the four, only American Maid 
was even remotely useful as a character. 
 
And, of course, it took very little points to actually build them.  We 
spent our remaining points on luck.  I think we all had around 25 dice of 
luck.  (we had alot of points to spend to bring them up to 300 points, and 
we figured we needed the dice to live through the adventure). 
 
Unfortunately, the GM didn't have as much of a sense of humor about the 
whole thing as WE did, so we ended up having to build normal characters for 
the game. 
 
sigh. 
 
Todd 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 06:42:27 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Does BODY 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:36 AM 1/1/98 EST, Firelynx16 wrote: 
>In a message dated 97-12-31 15:33:17 EST, you write: 
> 
><< >I don't think you'd need the +2 Advantage for a NND KA.  A regular NND KA 
>(if 
> >it's allowed by the GM at all) is of the normal +1 Advantage, as long as it 
> >has the one common defense, or set of uncommon defenses.  The reason 
poisons 
> >and some venoms are written up with the +2 Advantage is because they've 
only 
> >got one uncommon defense.  Someone at HeroGames answered my question about 
> >this once with that explanation. 
>  
>    Under the current published wisdom, I think it'd still be called a +2, 
> because it's an NND (+1) that Does BODY (another +1). 
>    
>Where did you get the Does Body at +1?  I couldn't find it anywhere.  Under 
>NND, it says that only with GM permission can an NND do Body, but doesn't 
>assign any other Advantage to it.  In a Fantasy Hero book, they explained 
that 
>for poisons, I believe, they assigned another +1 for the NND because it only 
>had one uncommon defense, instead of a *set* of uncommon defenses.  That's 
the 
>only mention of an additional +1 I've seen.  In the only published villians I 
>know of, those European Enemies baddies, they use a +1, not a +2, for their 
>NND Killing Attacks. 
 
   The "Does BODY" Advantage first appeared in The Ultimate Mentalist.  Its 
primary intent was for Ego Attacks and Powers bought BOECV, but it could 
just as easily be applied to NND and AVLD attacks. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 07:01:31 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: KAs and the Stun Lotto 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 06:42 PM 12/31/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>> > It's easier than the Hit Location chart, which I'm trying to 
>> >avoid.  And I think it's simple enough that it'd be second nature in a few 
>> >game sessions. 
>> 
>> Or buy an "averaging die" (2 3 3 4 4 5), and use it in your 1d6-1 STUN 
mod... 
> 
> 
> Close, but not quite.  (1 2 2 3 3 4).  That gets rid of that nasty 
>5 on the upper end, which is why I like it.  BTW, I've never actually 
>seen averaging dice. 
 
   Tim, the "averaging die" (a real product with 233445 on it) rolled at -1 
will give you 122334. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 07:01:31 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: KAs and the Stun Lotto 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 06:42 PM 12/31/97 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>> > It's easier than the Hit Location chart, which I'm trying to 
>> >avoid.  And I think it's simple enough that it'd be second nature in a few 
>> >game sessions. 
>> 
>> Or buy an "averaging die" (2 3 3 4 4 5), and use it in your 1d6-1 STUN 
mod... 
> 
> 
> Close, but not quite.  (1 2 2 3 3 4).  That gets rid of that nasty 
>5 on the upper end, which is why I like it.  BTW, I've never actually 
>seen averaging dice. 
 
   Tim, the "averaging die" (a real product with 233445 on it) rolled at -1 
will give you 122334. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 01 Jan 1998 10:03:28 -0500 
Lines: 33 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "F" == Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> writes: 
 
F>  No.  Desolidification does not work this way.  It does not make one 
F>  immune to damage, it makes one insubstantial to the physical 
F>  world/plane/whatever you want to call it. >> 
 
Please fix your citation scheme; I wrote this, not you. 
 
F> Are you sure? 
 
	"A character with this Standard Power can become insubstantial -- 
	allowing him to walk through walls and ignore attacks." 
 
The ability to walk through walls and ignore attacks is an effect of being 
insubstantial, not the direct effect of the power. 
 
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--  
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 07:03:33 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Punching People Into Orbit 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 06:45 PM 12/31/97 +0000, Stirling Westrup wrote: 
>This is not bad, but I thought I should point out that Hero system doesn't  
>EXACTLY give double effect for +1 body, but actually seems to use a 
progression  
>based on the 10th root of 1000, which is something like 1.995. I know it 
seems  
>like a minor quibble, but it turns the above distance progression into: 
> 
> # Extra BODY    Extra STR for    Distance 
> on KB Roll      Throwing         of Throw/KB 
>  
>     1           0                    1" 
>     2           5                    2" 
>     3           10                   4" 
>     4           15                   8" 
>     5           20                  16" 
>     6           25                  32" 
>     7           30                  64" 
>     8           35                 125" 
>     9           40                 250" 
>    10           45                   1 km 
>    11           50                   2 km 
>    12           55                   4 km 
>    13           60                   8 km                 
>    etc          etc                etc 
> 
>which works out to nicer numbers IMHO. 
 
   Whoops!  You left out 500"! 
   This is a good optional chart for larger-than-life four-color games.  I 
hope whoever is working on The Ultimate Brick gets ahold of it. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Complex Telekinesis 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 01 Jan 1998 10:05:00 -0500 
Lines: 28 
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>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> While I can almost get all of it, how does one simulate the ability to 
F> keep hundreds of small objects in the air at the same time, not flying 
F> as a group? 
 
If that is all they are doing, it is just a special effect, a "power 
stunt". 
 
If they can do damage then it is some form of attack, possibly with AoE. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 98 15:06:16  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:42:07 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
 
>On Monday, December 29, 1997 6:22 AM, qts wrote: 
> 
> 
>>On Thu, 25 Dec 1997 23:10:21 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>> 
><snip> 
>> 
>>So, if I have a Cosmic Pool of 10 pts, I have a Control Cost of 15, 
>and 
>>need to put 3 points to the Control Cost for every 2 points in the 
>>Pool. 
>> 
>>So, if I buy 2d6 Absorbtion with the +2 Advantage, and put on a decay 
>>time of 5 mins (+1/2), for a total of 35 pts), specifying that the 
>>points go to the VPP and absorbtion on a 5:2 basis. So, with every 7 
>>pts Absorbed (the average), the VPP goes up by a whopping TWO points. 
>>And for this, I've spent 60 pts total. 
>> 
>>I would submit that there are far better ways of spending 60 pts. 
>> 
>That's why you need the Absorption to feed to the VPP _and_ the 
>extended decay time on the Absorption. By the time that five minutes 
>are up, the number of points gained has significantly increased this 
>time, and it keep going up and up. 
> 
>So, he gets an old lamp, cuts the cord, strips the wire ends, and 
>hangs on for ten minutes, until his VPP has enough points to make him 
>effectively immune to the current with a force field. Then he tapes 
>the wires to his head and goes to sleep. 
 
But don't forget that the amount he loses every 5 minutes will also go 
up proportionally. Sure he might have mega-power for 5 minutes after 
his fix, but after that 5 minutes, it's going to vanish like the 
morning mist. Anyway, I as a GM, would count this as a deliberately 
self-inflicted wound therefore bypassing all defenses. 
 
It's worth noting that Superman is a variant of this principle: he's 
powered by solar energy (but not visible light), and once physically 
away from that source, his powers are considerably weakened. 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 07:06:21 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The Tick universe 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:59 PM 12/31/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
>> Has anybody developed the characters from The Tick for use with 
>> Champions? 
> 
>  Now *this* is something I'd like to see! 
 
   For that matter, I'd love to see a published Tick Universe sourcebook 
for Champions. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 01 Jan 1998 10:07:48 -0500 
Lines: 27 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> Which means that it will become the latest underused power in 
F> Champions. People who are at all concerned with points will avoid it 
F> like the plague, since they can either buy Strength or Energy Blast, 
F> with greater utility and value for points. 
 
No, because Strength will cost 10 points per 5 points of Strength.  Buying 
a no-range EB would be valid... but you cannot add Strength to it. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Using skills... 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 01 Jan 1998 10:09:33 -0500 
Lines: 34 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> That doesn't simulate what I am working for. Under the present system, 
F> I could try to save a person by taking an hour, and if it only took a 
F> minute, I still waste an hour. If a day would have succeeded, that's 
F> too bad, because he is dead, and there is no method for taking longer 
F> on something like that. 
 
And is that not sufficient to balance the fact that a character tried to be 
cheap about it? 
 
 
 
F> I want to be able to take "as long as it takes". 
 
Roll a 3 and you got lucky. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 98 15:12:37  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:46:32 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
 
>A number of posts have referred to the undesirability of the "STUN 
>lotto". While I think the STUN lotto has some utility (fatal stab 
>wounds and bullet holes often don't even hurt, at first, especially if 
>the target is hopped up on adrenaline), it is generally disliked and 
>inconvenient. 
> 
>The thing I noticed was that just about everyone seems to like the 
>"BODY lotto". Given a normal attack and a killing attack, the BODY 
>done varies more for the killing attack, by a considerable amount. 
>This allows for the all too common effect of shooting a normal with a 
>.50 cal machine gun, or even a LAW rocket, and having them live, 
>sometimes only moderately injured. 
 
<thud> 
 
Holy sh*t Batman! This man has a point! 
 
>BTW, for those who like the possibility of rolling _high_ on killing 
>attacks, I refer them to the critical hit rules (if only I could find 
>them).  
 
If you roll half or less the number needed to hit, or a 3 in any case, 
yo get maximum damage. 
 
EG Megaman needs a 12- to hit Dr Duck, so needs a 6- to score a 
critical with his 20d6 HA. 
 
He rolls a 5 so does 120 Stun and 40 Body. 
 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 07:13:54 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Using skills... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:55 AM 1/1/98 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
>  I might suggest, as an alternate method, to allow a skill roll... For every 
>two points *above* the roll needed, the time required is *decreased* one 
step. 
>For every two points *below* what is needed it takes one step *longer* to 
>accomplish. This could work well in a cinematic type game, IMO. 
 
   This is my thought exactly.  (I was just looking to see if someone else 
had said it before I did.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 07:30:10 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: New Year's Predictions 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
   First of all, everyone, have a great 1998!  (I know life is already on 
the upswing for me!)   :-] 
   Now, let's see how good I am at prognostication, with ten predictions 
for 1998.  If anyone wants to stash them away somewhere and re-post them 
next December 31 to see how accurate I am, go ahead!) 
 
   First, five Hero-related predictions: 
 
   1.  Due to various minor problems, the Fifth Edition Hero System 
Rulebook will be delayed until early 1999. 
   2.  There will be four to six Ultimate books released, including my own. 
 One of them (not necessarily mine) will be so good that even Stainless 
Steel Rat will have good words for it. 
   3.  One more company will approach the Hero Guys about doing licensed 
products for Fourth Edition, though negotiations will slow things down so 
the first product doesn't appear until 2000. 
   4.  There will be at least one mention of Hero Plus, Gold Rush, or both 
(whether a news article or a book promotion) on national network or 
syndicated television. 
   5.  Someone will file an intellectual property lawsuit against Hero 
Games, only to have it thrown out of court. 
 
   Now, five predictions for the world at large: 
 
   1.  At least one Far Eastern nation will suffer a catastrophic financial 
collapse that rivals or even exceeds the severity of the Great Depression. 
   2.  There will be a highly publicized but unsuccessful assassination 
attempt against Saddam Hussein. 
   3.  Hanson's sitcom will be either scuttled, or cancelled after no more 
than five episodes. 
   4.  Somebody will try something violent and ugly in retaliation for one 
of the events in the Branch Davidian/Timothy McVeigh line of events. 
   5.  Good Morning America (which already has Tom Bergeron, Laurie 
Hibberd, and Jeff MacGregor) will continue to pick up personnel and 
material (at least one unit from each category) from the old Breakfast Time 
and Fox After Breakfast programs. 
 
   Now let's see how I do.  (I figure two from each section will be really 
good, and frankly I'm more confident of the second list than I am on the 
first!) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford) 
Subject: Re: Complex Telekinesis 
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 15:47:01 GMT 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:57:37 -0800, you wrote: 
 
>My daughter's favorite movie is Matilda (which is a good movie for 
>young children, with the added benefit that it isn't necessary to flee 
>when they turn it on, unlike Barney or Care Bears). When she was 
>watching it one day, I noticed Matilda doing something that, in Hero, 
>is all but impossible. 
> 
>While sitting in the middle of a room, she had poker chips flying 
>around her in complex, ribbon-like patterns, while simultaneously 
>turning on radios and making various other objects move at her 
>command. 
> 
>While I can almost get all of it, how does one simulate the ability to 
>keep hundreds of small objects in the air at the same time, not flying 
>as a group? If this is "fine manipulation", then what do you call 
>things that can be done by immaterial hands? If this is "Change 
>Environment", then how can you do it with fairly large, damaging 
>objects, like bowling balls or people? How much difference does it 
>make if they don't fly in similar patterns? 
 
I'd consider it a function of "fine manipulation" of an area effect 
telekinesis. Not something you'd bother to purchase the AE advantage 
for, but something to "wow the crowds" with if you did have it. 
 
John Lansford 
 
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/intro.htm 
 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 10:51:56 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Complex Telekinesis 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Filksinger wrote: 
 
> While sitting in the middle of a room, she had poker chips flying 
> around her in complex, ribbon-like patterns, while simultaneously 
> turning on radios and making various other objects move at her 
> command. 
 
This sounds like AoE TK.  Turning on radios would be Fine Manipulation. 
  
> While I can almost get all of it, how does one simulate the ability to 
> keep hundreds of small objects in the air at the same time, not flying 
> as a group? If this is "fine manipulation", then what do you call 
> things that can be done by immaterial hands? If this is "Change 
> Environment", then how can you do it with fairly large, damaging 
> objects, like bowling balls or people? How much difference does it 
> make if they don't fly in similar patterns? 
 
Make it a sub-set of AoE.  If your not trying to use it in combat, it's an 
SFX of your TK.  In combat, you might be able to get by with Change 
Environment (cloud of small objects or minor TK effects) since it is 
similar to a weather character creating a fog.  With larger objects, you 
make an AoE EB (physical) equal (or close) to the STR of the TK.  The SFX 
is a swirling mass of bowling balls (or something similar).  If you use 
the standard 'you hit the hex, you've hit the target' AoE, that should 
satisfy the multiple pattern problem. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 10:00:25 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Building the "psychic"... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Hey everyone, I'm about to get involved in a Horror Hero games where powers  
aren't allowed, but I thought I'd have some fun and build a "psychic" fraud.  
 Just wondering what kind of skills everyone would give and any abilities to  
someone who claims to be psychic but not really.  Thanks and talk at you later. 
 
 
Sparx 
 
===================================================== 
 He who laughs last thinks slowest! 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:05:32 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Complex Telekinesis 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>While sitting in the middle of a room, she had poker chips flying 
>around her in complex, ribbon-like patterns, while simultaneously 
>turning on radios and making various other objects move at her 
>command. 
> 
>While I can almost get all of it, how does one simulate the ability to 
>keep hundreds of small objects in the air at the same time, not flying 
>as a group? If this is "fine manipulation", then what do you call 
>things that can be done by immaterial hands? If this is "Change 
>Environment", then how can you do it with fairly large, damaging 
>objects, like bowling balls or people? How much difference does it 
>make if they don't fly in similar patterns? 
 
This sounds exactly like Area Effect Telekinesis with Fine Manipulation - 
probably with a lot of extra skill levels in TK. I don't understand what you 
mean by "what do you call things that can be done by immaterial hands?". Are 
you perhaps referring to a 'limited' or 'non-advantaged' form of TK? 
Telekinesis by itself can do more than just a pair of human hands could. 
 
This statement sounds like Telekinesis to me. If this really bugs you, throw 
in Extra Limbs for the TK, which is another 'means' of manipulating multiple 
objects with Telekinesis (though you'd have to pick them up/target them one 
at a time). 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
X-Sender: mactyre@mail.aci.net 
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 09:08:47 -0800 
From: Matthew Mactyre <mactyre@aci.net> 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:12 PM 1/1/98, qts wrote: 
>>This allows for the all too common effect of shooting a normal with a 
>>.50 cal machine gun, or even a LAW rocket, and having them live, 
>>sometimes only moderately injured. 
> 
><thud> 
> 
>Holy sh*t Batman! This man has a point! 
 
This is a little off topic, but reminds me of a Chessman game where we were 
fighting Raven.  Raven had captured an alien starship and was using it to 
blackmail the governments of the Earth.  They had used the main ship's guns 
and had already destroyed Star City in Russia and were targeting several 
other juicy targets on Earth. 
 
Several Knights had penetrated the ships defense and had made their way to 
the bridge.  Catching the Supreme Raven (we had dubbed "Big Bird") and his 
minions by surprise, we started trashing the bridge.  Big Bird was trying 
to make it to the control panel to engage the fire control, when one of the 
Knights (played by Marcus Hodges) shot him in the head with a LAW rocket he 
has picked up along the way.  THIS DIDN'T KILL OR EVEN STUN HIM!  We ended 
up by finally subduing him and caused the ship to self-destruct.  We were 
expecting a heroic death, but the GM allowed us to escape via lifeboats 
located on the bridge.   
 
I remember Marcus being angry because we lost brownie points due to using 
lethal force.  We all thought that saving the Earth should have been worth 
something.  <grin> 
 
I've long since given up arguing about the lethality of Champions.  I just 
attribute its lack of lethality to the genre, and am not willing to modify 
the rules.  The hit location rules can make it somewhat more realistic, but 
let's face it folks -- in comic books both villains and heroes take 
tremendous amounts of punishment and still show up in the next issue.  
 
Matthew 
Matthew Mactyre 
mcm@mactyre.net 
http://www.mactyre.net 
Join us on IRC Dalnet #herochat 
 
From: "Roger A. Wesson, Jr." <uraeus@bunt.com> 
Subject: RE: New Year's Predictions 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 18:21:10 +0100 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>   3.  Hanson's sitcom will be....>snip< 
 
Ahhh!  A more truer proof of the existence of evil 
has never been offered! 
 
Subject: Re: Building the "psychic"... 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-11,24-25,31-32,38-40 
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) 
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 12:35:08 EST 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>Hey everyone, I'm about to get involved in a Horror Hero games where  
>powers  
>aren't allowed, but I thought I'd have some fun and build a "psychic"  
>fraud.  
> Just wondering what kind of skills everyone would give and any  
>abilities to  
>someone who claims to be psychic but not really.  Thanks and talk at  
>you later. 
> 
> 
>Sparx 
 
A nice high roll in acting is a must.  If the character normally does 
"private readings", get persuasion; if he normally does group seminars, 
get oratory.  The character will definitely need KS or PS for whatever 
"mystic" method he uses -- a fake Tarot reader will still need to know 
how to lay out Tarot spreads and what the cards symbolize.  Presumably, 
the character is faking psychic powers to make money.  The people that 
money is coming from genuinely believe in psychic abilities and often 
know the basics themselves.  (I used to sell stained glass pieces through 
a local New Age store, I've met these people.)  If the fake psychic draws 
the Death card during a reading and says it means the client's incipient 
marriage will be a great success, it's going to take one heck of a roll 
to get the client to believe him.  (Or one heck of a Presence Attack -- 
you might want to buy that up as well.) 
 
KS: the New Age community would also be helpful, possibly with a few AKs 
if the character travels a lot.  (Please don't set up the Magick Seance 
Van in the parking lot of the most conservative church in town.)  At 
least around here hypnotherapists need to be licensed, but even if you 
don't want a professional group checking on what your character is up to 
you could spend a few points on PS: Hypnotist. 
 
If you've got a couple spare points, consider taking an "Ordained 
Minister" perk.  There's several New Age churches that will give you an 
ordination certificate in exchange for a valid check, and that's one good 
way to run a "counseling" business without having anyone check up on you. 
 Check the back pages of any New Age magazine, or just make up a name 
like "The Universal Church of the Pure Light". 
 
Leah 
 
From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 13:50:37 EST 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 97-12-31 11:54:32 EST, ratinox@peorth.gweep.net wrote:  
 
> >>>>> "DF" == David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> writes: 
>   
>  DF> People who are staring at the wrong end of a gun barrell ought not to 
>  DF> be thinking, "I hope I don't get knocked out..." they ought to be 
>  DF> thinking, "I hope I don't die..." 
 
But there are a lot of superhero conceptions out there where the character 
shouldn't be thinking either of those two thoughts. If anything, the character 
should be thinking "I hope no one gets hit by the ricochet..." 
 
>   
>  For all the complaints about the Stun lotto, it actually does reasonably 
>  mirror they way that "real" killing damage works.  To wit, gunshot wounds 
>  may in and of themselves be relatively minor, but cause tremendous systemic 
>  shock (Stun damage) -- and then the victim slowly bleeds to death.  Or they 
>  may cause great ammounts of tissue disruption but not much shock trauma. 
>   
>  The Stun lotto goes a long way to simulating that wide range of effect. 
 
Yes, *if the victim takes Body* from the Killing Attack then the Stun lotto is 
reasonable: It does do, as you say, a fairly good job of simulating the wide- 
ranging effects of "real" killing damage.  
 
But what if the Body bounces? In that case I don't think the Stun lotto is so 
appropriate - certainly not in the case of 4-color superheroes. Instead... I'm 
not sure what, instead. My current house rule is that if a Killing attack 
fails to do Body damage then the target takes only *half* the Stun damage he 
otherwise would - i.e. halve the Body rolled before applying the Stun 
multiplier. I'm not 100% happy with this, however.  
 
Erol K. Bayburt 
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 14:27:43 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:02 PM 1/1/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>> Not default SFX, default *effects*.  Each Power has a specific purpose, 
> 
>	Same thing, different flavor. 
> 
>> printed in the first sentence of their description.  Everything that follows 
>> is merely a ramification of that purpose.  Sometimes, the purpose can be 
> 
>	This "rule" you keep quoting.  Where is it?  I assume somewhere in 
>the BBB, right?  Oh?  What's that?  The rule isn't a published one?  Why, 
>that would make it a house rule, now wouldn't it?  Not, in fact, the way 
>the rules actually work. 
 
I don't believe I quoted anything, and I didn't label it a "rule".  If 
you're referring to the "first sentence principle, then that's merely an 
observation of facts.  The BBB is written in a certain fashion; the "state 
the purpose of the Power/Skill/Talent/Etc. first" pattern is about the ONLY 
organizational dictum that never gets broken. 
 
>	No, this is the rule.  There are no exceptions.  Hero works by 
>taking a desired SFX and fitting the effects of certain powers to that 
>SFX.  Sometimes, modifiers are needed as well. 
 
Yes, but the point is that the effects of those powers are not (in "canon 
rules") subject to arbitrary changes.  I can't make up a +1/4 Advantage 
"does Killing Damage" to apply to EB attacks or STR just because the mood 
strikes me, and still expect anyone to consider my game tournament-level HERO. 
 
>> construction does not result in the character being insubstantial, do  
>> not pass go, do not collect $200, do not read the rest of the Desolid 
>> paragraphs. 
> 
> You continue to insist on needlessly hamstringing these rules. Why? 
 
Because I can do what you call "hamstringing" without actually impeding my 
ability to create character concepts, and additionally I avoid aggravating 
and munchkiny constructions. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 14:27:46 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: You can't hit me! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:13 AM 1/2/98 -0500, Kevin J. McClain wrote: 
>Please let me know of some other ways to simulate this "Karma" power. I 
>know Icould of  bought her DCV levels but the ability I was looking for 
>work when the character wasn't even thinking about it. 
 
And DCV levels don't?  To the best of my knowledge, unless you apply a 
limitation to say otherwise, DCV levels are "persistent". 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 13:59:31 -0800 
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com> 
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>A 4d6 RKA has, with an average BODY roll, a 1 in 6 chance of doing 62 
>pts of STUN. The odds of rolling much higher STUN with killing attacks 
>as opposed to normal attacks is definitely significant. 
> 
>Filksinger 
 
A 4d6 RKA has, with an average Body roll, a 2 in 6 chance of doing 14 
pts of Stun. So yes while a killing attack has a better chance of 
rolling higher than a normal attack , it also has a much much higher 
chance of rolling a completely ineffectual amount of stun than a normal 
attack ever will. 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org> 
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> 
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 01:40:43 +0000 
Subject: Re: Punching People Into Orbit 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
So Sayeth Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com&> 
 
> At 06:45 PM 12/31/97 +0000, Stirling Westrup wrote: 
> > 
> > # Extra BODY    Extra STR for    Distance 
> > on KB Roll      Throwing         of Throw/KB 
> >  
> >     8           35                 125" 
> >     9           40                 250" 
> >    10           45                   1 km 
> >    11           50                   2 km 
>  
>    Whoops!  You left out 500"! 
 
Did Not!  Remember, 1" = 2m therefore 500" = 1km, and thats on the table. 
 
--  
 Stirling Westrup  |  Use of the Internet by this poster 
 sti@cam.org       |  is not to be construed as a tacit 
                   |  endorsement of Western Technological 
                   |  Civilization or its appurtenances. 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org> 
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> 
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 01:40:44 +0000 
Subject: Re: Punching People into Orbit 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
So Sayeth Len Carpenter <redlion@voicenet.com&> 
 
>  
>  
> Stirling Westrup replies: 
>  
> > This is not bad, but I thought I should point out that Hero system 
> > doesn't EXACTLY give double effect for +1 body, but actually seems to 
> > use a progression based on the 10th root of 1000, which is something like 
> > 1.995.  know it seems like a minor quibble, but it turns the above  
> > distance progression into: 
> >. # Extra BODY    Extra STR for    Distance 
> > on KB Roll      Throwing         of Throw/KB 
> >  
> >     1           0                    1" 
> >     2           5                    2" 
> >     3           10                   4" 
> >     4           15                   8" 
> >     5           20                  16" 
> >     6           25                  32" 
> >     7           30                  64" 
> >     8           35                 125" 
> >     9           40                 250" 
> >    10           45                   1 km 
> >    11           50                   2 km 
> >    12           55                   4 km 
> >    13           60                   8 km 
> >    etc          etc                etc 
>  
 
>  
> Since I kicked off much of this discussion, I'd like to mention that even 
> under ideal circumstances, the above distances for Knockback grow to be twenty 
> times as long as they should be, assuming that 1 extra BODY on the KB roll is 
> treated as 50 joules of initial kinetic energy, with every additional BODY 
> doubling the initial energy of the knocked-back character. 
 
I wasn't commenting on the realism of the above formula, but on the  
fact that each additional body gives 1.995 times the kinetic energy, not 2x.  I  
like your approach to knockback and throwing, and I'm going to use it, but I am  
going to use my multiplier rather than yours. 
 
> Consider the following:  Maybe Hero Games should bring in Bill Nye the Science 
> Guy as a consultant on the 5th edition rules. 
 
Actually, anyone who took basic science should be able to handle this.  
After all, I learned about kinetic energy and projectile motion in Highschool. 
(but yes, make sure at least one of the editors DID take basic science, and  
remembers it...) 
 
--  
 Stirling Westrup  |  Use of the Internet by this poster 
 sti@cam.org       |  is not to be construed as a tacit 
                   |  endorsement of Western Technological 
                   |  Civilization or its appurtenances. 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org> 
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> 
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 01:40:45 +0000 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
So Sayeth qts <qts@nildram.co.uk&> 
 
> On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:46:32 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>  
> >BTW, for those who like the possibility of rolling _high_ on killing 
> >attacks, I refer them to the critical hit rules (if only I could find 
> >them).  
>  
> If you roll half or less the number needed to hit, or a 3 in any case, 
> yo get maximum damage. 
>  
> EG Megaman needs a 12- to hit Dr Duck, so needs a 6- to score a 
> critical with his 20d6 HA. 
>  
> He rolls a 5 so does 120 Stun and 40 Body. 
>  
 
I used to play with these rules regularly, but ran into difficulty the first  
time the players met a super-large creature. It took up something like 30  
hexes, and so was essentially DCV 0. The characters ALWAYS made critical hits,  
and so always did maximum body and stun. A terrifing monster was thus a putz,  
and died in 2 or 3 turns of battle. Clearly, the rules need some modification.  
 
--  
 Stirling Westrup  |  Use of the Internet by this poster 
 sti@cam.org       |  is not to be construed as a tacit 
                   |  endorsement of Western Technological 
                   |  Civilization or its appurtenances. 
 
From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net> 
Subject: Ideas for 5 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:39:28 -0600 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I suggest a whole section dedicated to helping people put together concepts 
that would in many games be one power, but in champions would be many powers 
with a commun special affect. Things like "Weather Control", "Animal 
Micmicry", Various forms of Shape shift, and so on. This way you could give 
hints on which frameworks and powers could be used to simulate such 
abilities. Updates would be handy. 
 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 21:02:15 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> Not default SFX, default *effects*.  Each Power has a specific purpose, 
 
	Same thing, different flavor. 
 
> printed in the first sentence of their description.  Everything that follows 
> is merely a ramification of that purpose.  Sometimes, the purpose can be 
 
	This "rule" you keep quoting.  Where is it?  I assume somewhere in 
the BBB, right?  Oh?  What's that?  The rule isn't a published one?  Why, 
that would make it a house rule, now wouldn't it?  Not, in fact, the way 
the rules actually work. 
 
> circumvented by certain advantages or limitations, but this is the exception 
> and not the rule. 
 
	No, this is the rule.  There are no exceptions.  Hero works by 
taking a desired SFX and fitting the effects of certain powers to that 
SFX.  Sometimes, modifiers are needed as well. 
 
> Spending 40 points does not render you immune to attacks & capable of 
> passing through objects.  It renders you insubstantial, and the rest of the 
> description amounts to the game effects of being insubstantial. If a given 
 
	No.  Not quite.  The effects are described in the powers section, 
not the game play rules section.  If hero had a section in the rules on 
the default effects of being insubstantial, I would expect them away from 
an actual powers.  As it is, the rules work as they always had.  If you 
want to define an effect use what is given in the powers. 
 
 
> construction does not result in the character being insubstantial, do not 
> pass go, do not collect $200, do not read the rest of the Desolid paragraphs. 
 
	You continue to insist on needlessly hamstringing these rules. 
Why? 
 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 21:12:21 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> other Killing Attacks (small or large) with the potential to do some major 
> damage (and produce some major fear).  Maybe a solution would be to decide 
> that handguns and other not-as-heavy in the stopping power KAs should take a 
> Limitation of a Stun Cap... where 3 or 4 was the highest Stun Multiplier you 
> could roll. 
 
 
	With my new Stun Multiple system, this would work.  4 is the 
highest roll.  For many of the smaller arms, a -1 Stun mult for -1/4 cost 
would be in order.  This would work. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 03:17:11 +0000 
From: Chris Brecken <Christopher.Brecken@sunderland.ac.uk> 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Just a thorght, 
 
But might we be approaching the problem from the wrong end. 
I seam to remember someone talking about shock damage due to killing 
attacks, and justifing the stun multiplier from this. 
Well it occurs to me that if a bullet hits a flak jacket and is stoped 
then there is some transfer of kinetic energy, but you dont tend to get 
the kind of system shock as you do when a bullet hits bare flesh. 
The point i,m getting at is that rPD should be more effective against 
the stun from a killing attack than normal PD... 
 
Cheers 
	Chris 
 
BTW, All the best for 98 
 
--  
"Don't put your trust in foolish promises sworn. 
 Nor cryptic message scrawled upon every wall" 
 
  Tony Clarkin, 
  The Spirit 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 01 Jan 1998 22:44:38 -0500 
Lines: 38 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
>> Not default SFX, default *effects*.  Each Power has a specific purpose, 
 
TRG> 	Same thing, different flavor. 
 
Not at all.  A power's special effects are the "flavor" it has for that 
particular character.  A power's effect is what it does, as defined by its 
mechanics.  Becoming a cloud of water vapor is a special effect for 
Desolidification; becoming insubstantial is the effect of Desolidification. 
 
[...] 
 
TRG> 	You continue to insist on needlessly hamstringing these rules. 
TRG> Why? 
 
You continue to insist on adamantly ignoring the first sentence in the 
power's description, the one that describes what the power does and what 
the incidental effects of that are, so as to make it do things it was never 
intended to do.  Why? 
 
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Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 23:08:39 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: The Ultimate Swashbuckler 
X-VMS-To: IN%"Champ-l@omg.org" 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Greetings and salutations, 
	I'm trying to design 'The Ultimate Swashbuckler' for a high powered 
high fantasy game I am running. 
	A breif background on the character:  he's a fop, a rake, and a rouge. 
He tries to avoid actual hack and slash combat;  He would much rather toy with 
and embarass his foes than kill them outright.  He uses his Dexterity and 
mobility in combat in lieu of great physical resistance. 
	Using swordplay, he has been able to disarm men of much greater 
stregnth, often holding many sword fighters at once.  When fighting in a duel, 
he always draws first-- and before his opponent can react, his weapon is 
already at his side as the befuddled opponent weapon lies, disarmed, at his 
feet. 
	He can also do various 'tricks.'  Undoing belts, purse straps, 
bodices, etc. with his sword.  He can also slice through candles and have them 
fall moments later.  He has also been known to bat thrown knives out of the air 
with his blade. 
	Is there any way to 'beef up' a martial disarm (i.e. give it more 
stregnth)?  How do you attack multiple opponents at close range with only one 
sword swing?  AoE seems inappropiate...  Fast Draw and Lightning Reflexes would 
work for the speed of the draw, but the actual unexpected quickness? (Would 
Invisible Power Effects be too much?)  For the 'tricks' I was thinking TK,  
Fine Manipulation, No Range.  For the 'candle slice'-- Time Delay? 
Any advice on skillful strikes in the Hero system? 
	How does one represent a 'weapon of opportunity'? 
 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: Re: Punching People into Orbit 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:11:58 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
> So Sayeth John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net&> 
 
>> How about this, then: 
>>  
>> # Extra BODY    Extra STR for    Distance 
>> on KB Roll      Throwing         of Throw/KB 
>>  
>>     1           0                    1" 
>>     2           5                    2" 
>>     3           10                   4" 
>>     4           15                   8" 
>>     5           20                  16" 
>>     6           25                  32" 
>>     7           30                  64" 
>>     8           35                 128" 
>>     9           40                 256" 
>>    10           45                 512" 
>>    11           50                1024" 
>>    12           55                2048" 
>>    13           60                4096" 
>>    etc          etc                etc 
>>  
>> Note that 'throwing' is for a standing throw. For a running throw, 
>> each 10" of velocity adds 5 extra STR for throwing. A prone throw is 
>> done at 5 less extra STR. 
 
 
Stirling Westrup replies: 
 
> This is not bad, but I thought I should point out that Hero system 
> doesn't EXACTLY give double effect for +1 body, but actually seems to 
> use a progression based on the 10th root of 1000, which is something like 
> 1.995.  know it seems like a minor quibble, but it turns the above  
> distance progression into: 
>. # Extra BODY    Extra STR for    Distance 
> on KB Roll      Throwing         of Throw/KB 
>  
>     1           0                    1" 
>     2           5                    2" 
>     3           10                   4" 
>     4           15                   8" 
>     5           20                  16" 
>     6           25                  32" 
>     7           30                  64" 
>     8           35                 125" 
>     9           40                 250" 
>    10           45                   1 km 
>    11           50                   2 km 
>    12           55                   4 km 
>    13           60                   8 km 
>    etc          etc                etc 
 
> which works out to nicer numbers IMHO. 
 
 
 
Since I kicked off much of this discussion, I'd like to mention that even under 
ideal circumstances, the above distances for Knockback grow to be twenty times 
as long as they should be, assuming that 1 extra BODY on the KB roll is treated 
as 50 joules of initial kinetic energy, with every additional BODY doubling the 
initial energy of the knocked-back character. 
 
If you take the equations for kinetic energy and simple projectile motion, 
assume an ideal launching angle of 45 degrees, treat the projectile's mass as 
100 kg, ignore the force of air drag, and do a little algebra, then the 
projectile's distance in meters is found to be equal to its initial kinetic 
energy in joules divided by 500. 
 
For example, if 10 BODY translates into 25 kilojoules of initial kinetic 
energy, that's a projectile distance of only 50 meters, not 1 km.  Even 
assuming the body bounces and rolls farther on after it lands, there's no way 
Spiderman could do 14 BODY with a lucky punch, roll a 4 on his KB dice, and 
send Doc Octopus hurtling and bouncing 1 km down the street.  That kind of KB 
should be reserved for heavyweights like the Thing or Colossus. 
 
At the low end of the damage scale, treating KB as projectile motion doesn't 
work--characters won't fly back like a projectile by 2 meters until they have 
at least 1000 joules of kinetic energy, more than 5 extra BODY.  Low BODY rolls 
for KB should be treated as the character stumbling or staggering back, with 
true projectile motion not occurring until 8 or more extra BODY occurs.    
 
My other points on KB are: 
 
1) A knocked-back character won't be launched at the ideal 45 degree angle by 
every punch and energy blast.  A character performing a throw can take the time 
to select the proper launching angle to maximize distance, but the odds favor a 
KB normally occurring at a less optimal launching angle, shallower or steeper, 
reducing distance. 
 
2) Air resistance will reduce KB distances considerably, though this is much 
more difficult to calculate--so many variables.  For example, a skydiver who 
jumps out of a plane at 30,000 feet will take much longer to reach terminal 
velocity than one who jumps at 3,000 feet, because of the difference in air 
density.  For objects traveling slower than the speed of sound, the drag force 
increases faster than the square of velocity, so drag soon becomes substantial 
for non-aerodynamic bodies, bleeding off a large amount of kinetic energy with 
every passing second. 
 
My KB numbers--which I'm perpetually tinkering with--don't produce distances 
reaching 1 km until 16 extra BODY (initial kinetic energies exceeding 1 
megajoule).  Long-range KB should be a concern only in truly high-powered 
campaigns, even when you follow my house rule of subtracting only a base 1d6 
from damage BODY instead of 2d6.  As a crude approximation of air drag's 
effect, My KB distance quadruples with every additional +3 BODY, for 4 km at 19 
extra BODY, 16 km at 22 extra BODY, and so on.  This method does lack the 
simplicity of a neat, easy-to-remember table of repeatedly doubling numbers, 
though.  I'll post my most recent tables if folks ask. 
 
As others have mentioned, the official throwing distance table is certainly 
broken.  For assessing these numbers, I did some comparisons with world records 
in throwing the shot put, discus, and javelin.  That gave me some figures upon 
which to build a throwing table, and I extrapolated upward for superhuman 
strengths.  My take is that it requires an extra STR of 60 or better to hurl a 
100 kg character more than a kilometer. 
 
While the official rules don't reflect KB and throwing distances in a realistic 
fashion, often giving numbers that are too low, the above tables go too far in 
the opposite direction. 
 
Consider the following:  Maybe Hero Games should bring in Bill Nye the Science 
Guy as a consultant on the 5th edition rules. 
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:17:51 -0800 
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On Thursday, January 01, 1998 6:16 AM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
>>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
> 
>F> Which means that it will become the latest underused power in 
>F> Champions. People who are at all concerned with points will avoid 
it 
>F> like the plague, since they can either buy Strength or Energy 
Blast, 
>F> with greater utility and value for points. 
> 
>No, because Strength will cost 10 points per 5 points of Strength. 
Buying 
>a no-range EB would be valid... but you cannot add Strength to it. 
> 
 
 
Ah. Sorry, I thought you had said you weren't going to change the cost 
of STR in a previous post. 
 
If you wanted to do it this way, fine, but I wouldn't want to have it 
as an official rule. I am adamantly opposed to changing the cost of 
STR. I'll play Fuzion first. 
 
Well, maybe not. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Does BODY 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:19:55 -0800 
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On Thursday, January 01, 1998 6:37 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>   The "Does BODY" Advantage first appeared in The Ultimate 
Mentalist.  Its 
>primary intent was for Ego Attacks and Powers bought BOECV, but it 
could 
>just as easily be applied to NND and AVLD attacks. 
 
 
Close, but no cigar. The "Does BODY" Advantage dates back to a 3rd Ed. 
book. I think it was Fantasy Hero, or possibly the original Bestiary. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 22:25:14 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> 
> Not at all.  A power's special effects are the "flavor" it has for that 
> particular character.  A power's effect is what it does, as defined by its 
> mechanics.  Becoming a cloud of water vapor is a special effect for 
> Desolidification; becoming insubstantial is the effect of Desolidification. 
 
	Nope.  Being a cloud of water vapor is a SFX.  It has a few 
effects that should go with it, among them being impervious to most forms 
of damage and also being able to move through a limited set of things.  To 
get these game effects, we must take a power that provides them.  Work 
from the SFX, not from the power. 
 
> TRG> 	You continue to insist on needlessly hamstringing these rules. 
> TRG> Why? 
> 
> You continue to insist on adamantly ignoring the first sentence in the 
> power's description, the one that describes what the power does and what 
 
	This rule of thumb doesn't work.  It needlessly limits the Hero 
rules. 
 
> the incidental effects of that are, so as to make it do things it was never 
> intended to do.  Why? 
 
	Because the creators of the game couldn't think of every possible 
power when they made up this game.  They were forced to give a set of 
mechanics that could, with modifiers, simulate any possible SFX.  This 
power works fine and the existence of published rules using it in this 
sence seems to put the official rules on my side of the debate. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:31:20 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Swashbuckler 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 1 Jan 1998, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
 
> 	Using swordplay, he has been able to disarm men of much greater 
> stregnth, often holding many sword fighters at once.  When fighting in a duel, 
> he always draws first-- and before his opponent can react, his weapon is 
> already at his side as the befuddled opponent weapon lies, disarmed, at his 
> feet. 
> 	He can also do various 'tricks.'  Undoing belts, purse straps, 
> bodices, etc. with his sword.  He can also slice through candles and have them 
> fall moments later.   
 
> He has also been known to bat thrown knives out of the air 
> with his blade. 
 
Focused Missle Deflection, thrown objects.  There is supposed to be a 
Japanese sword technique ('x'-jutsu) were the swordsman trains on cutting 
arrows out of the air (no mean feat...).  Mark at GRG probably knows the 
full name... or SS Rat. 
 
> 	Is there any way to 'beef up' a martial disarm (i.e. give it more 
> stregnth)?   
 
Sure.  Buy extra STR, Does not Affect Figured (-1/2), Only usable with 
Martial Disarm (-1: limited use, but you use it alot). 
 
> How do you attack multiple opponents at close range with only one 
> sword swing?  AoE seems inappropiate...   
 
Incorrect.  One can use an Autofire strike for multiple attacks on one 
person, or Autofire (with extra levels) to hit multiple people, levels 
with Sweep (which is what my samurai character had), _or_ some form of AoE 
attack (usually selective). 
 
> Fast Draw and Lightning Reflexes would 
> work for the speed of the draw, but the actual unexpected quickness? (Would 
> Invisible Power Effects be too much?)   
 
I could see Invisble Power Effects STR on a *really* fast disarm.  I would 
recommend buying the advantage against the total presumed STR of the 
Disarm. This does mean the character sheet wil have a naked advantage, 
which is okay, since buying 0 END or Armor Piercing STR results in the 
same thing.  
 
> For the 'tricks' I was thinking TK,  
> Fine Manipulation, No Range.   
 
This sort of power was used for the Tombstone Kid (BBB) and my write-up of 
the Gunslinger.  The only difference was that these guys used a gun and  
not a sword. 
 
> For the 'candle slice'-- Time Delay? 
 
PRE attack and SFX.   
 
> Any advice on skillful strikes in the Hero system? 
 
Buy levels with the limitation "Only to counteract hit location modifers" 
(-1).  Lets you put your shots where you want them. 
 
> 	How does one represent a 'weapon of opportunity'? 
 
OIF (-1/2)  
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 01 Jan 1998 23:33:43 -0500 
Lines: 29 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
>> Not at all.  A power's special effects are the "flavor" it has for that 
>> particular character.  A power's effect is what it does, as defined by its 
>> mechanics.  Becoming a cloud of water vapor is a special effect for 
>> Desolidification; becoming insubstantial is the effect of Desolidification. 
 
TRG> 	Nope.  Being a cloud of water vapor is a SFX. 
 
What part of, "becoming a cloud of water vapor is a SPECIAL EFFECT for 
Desolidification," did you manage to miss? 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNKxuF56VRH7BJMxHAQHwLAQAh/oskFu58VUC2kfNjwacYLst+FtbjHa6 
iJmW60zw1Ee4/nozXKBaiQaA45GJntxeOrtnwOhP2tY2XTRkgS9TPUh2LieGIl8i 
yBRDdseBIL8eV41+mA4ATU7QvfjmlMcNzFQLzjfHLVYXd36xH1Z6xnjdJHdk7BOl 
rDHqvWcUhVI= 
=S5eU 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:39:55 -0800 
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On Thursday, January 01, 1998 7:02 AM, qts wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>But don't forget that the amount he loses every 5 minutes will also 
go 
>up proportionally. Sure he might have mega-power for 5 minutes after 
>his fix, but after that 5 minutes, it's going to vanish like the 
>morning mist. 
 
No. You missed the fact that the points go to the decay rate as well 
as the maximum Absorbed. Thus, the decay rate by the time the five 
minutes is up will be much longer than five minutes. 
 
>Anyway, I as a GM, would count this as a deliberately 
>self-inflicted wound therefore bypassing all defenses. 
 
 
So if the Hulk hits himself in the head with your average sword, he'll 
kill himself? If the character Maso-man is knocked off a cliff, his 
physical Absorption works, but if he jumps, it fails? 
 
Too arbitrary. I prefer the suggested rule that adjustment powers 
cannot feed to their increased time or maximum points added. Less 
arbitrary. If anyone wants to model this power, they have to actually 
buy the increased time or maximum points, and add appropriate 
Limitations as needed. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
From: "Roger A. Wesson, Jr." <uraeus@bunt.com> 
Subject: RE: The Ultimate Swashbuckler 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 05:48:39 +0100 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
  You can 'beef up' the Martial Disarm by buying extra Damage Classes 
 (+1 DC / +5 STR) maybe with a Limitation: Only Applies to Martial Disarm 
 
 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: Re: Does BODY 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:50:04 -0500 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
>  
> At 01:36 AM 1/1/98 EST, Firelynx16 wrote: 
> >In a message dated 97-12-31 15:33:17 EST, you write: 
> > 
> ><< >I don't think you'd need the +2 Advantage for a NND KA.  A 
regular NND KA 
> >(if 
> > >it's allowed by the GM at all) is of the normal +1 Advantage, as 
long as it 
> > >has the one common defense, or set of uncommon defenses.  The 
reason 
> poisons 
> > >and some venoms are written up with the +2 Advantage is because 
they've 
> only 
> > >got one uncommon defense.  Someone at HeroGames answered my 
question about 
> > >this once with that explanation. 
> >  
> >    Under the current published wisdom, I think it'd still be 
called a +2, 
> > because it's an NND (+1) that Does BODY (another +1). 
> >    
> >Where did you get the Does Body at +1?  I couldn't find it 
anywhere.  Under 
> >NND, it says that only with GM permission can an NND do Body, but 
doesn't 
> >assign any other Advantage to it.  In a Fantasy Hero book, they 
explained 
> that 
> >for poisons, I believe, they assigned another +1 for the NND 
because it only 
> >had one uncommon defense, instead of a *set* of uncommon defenses. 
 That's 
> the 
> >only mention of an additional +1 I've seen.  In the only published 
villians I 
> >know of, those European Enemies baddies, they use a +1, not a +2, 
for their 
> >NND Killing Attacks. 
>  
>    The "Does BODY" Advantage first appeared in The Ultimate 
Mentalist.  Its 
> primary intent was for Ego Attacks and Powers bought BOECV, but it 
could 
> just as easily be applied to NND and AVLD attacks. 
> --- 
> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
> Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
>  
 
I've seen the Does BODY (+1) Advantage appear as far back as the 
Gadgets! supplement by Andrew M. Robinson, published in 1986.  It was 
applied to AVLD attacks (called ALD attacks in that book, a term from 
the Champions III book), and suggested as possible for NND attacks.  
The plasma gun, for example, was a 2d6 RKA, ALD (Armor) (+1-1/2), ALD 
does BODY (+1), which today would properly be called an NND attack 
that Does Body, armor being a fairly common defense.  The screechgun 
was, in Champions 4 terms, a "1d6 AP RKA, AVLD vs. Mental Defense, 
AVLD Does BODY" weapon intended to fry the nervous system. 
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
 
            
 
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 23:56:31 -0500 
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net 
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood 
Subject: Re: Ideas for 5 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Marc Seebass wrote: 
 
> I suggest a whole section dedicated to helping people put together concepts 
> that would in many games be one power, but in champions would be many powers 
> with a commun special affect. Things like "Weather Control", "Animal 
> Micmicry", Various forms of Shape shift, and so on. This way you could give 
> hints on which frameworks and powers could be used to simulate such 
> abilities. Updates would be handy. 
 
I think there would be enough material to make a separate product!  I would like 
to see how a person causes bad things to happen to someone else without relying 
on Unluck. 
 
Kev 
 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 05:00:01 +0000 
From: Chris Brecken <Christopher.Brecken@sunderland.ac.uk> 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Swashbuckler 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>  
 
> Focused Missle Deflection, thrown objects.  There is supposed to be a 
> Japanese sword technique ('x'-jutsu) were the swordsman trains on cutting 
> arrows out of the air (no mean feat...).  Mark at GRG probably knows the 
> full name... or SS Rat. 
>  
 
I seam to remember the name for this skill is Yado... 
 
Chris 
 
--  
"Don't put your trust in foolish promises sworn. 
 Nor cryptic message scrawled upon every wall" 
 
  Tony Clarkin, 
  The Spirit 
 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 00:13:06 -0500 
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net 
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood 
Subject: You can't hit me! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I was inspired by a comic character the other day. No one could hit him 
with any kind of ranged attacked. They simply missed. Whenever they 
consciously attempted to target him, their shot went wide or high. My 
villainess, Misfire, simulated this effect with a FLASH 
Constant/Persistant  AOE radius BOECV Invisible SFX. A limitation on it 
makes says the only effect of the flash that applied were the OCV 
modifiers(0 OCV ranged 1/2 OCV HTH) and only vs her. 
 
She did well against the heros but they were naturally mistified as to 
why she was so hard to hit. When I explained her power, a couple of them 
didn't think Flash could work that way. 
 
Please let me know of some other ways to simulate this "Karma" power. I 
know Icould of  bought her DCV levels but the ability I was looking for 
work when the character wasn't even thinking about it. 
 
Kev 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Complex Telekinesis 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 21:15:18 -0800 
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On Thursday, January 01, 1998 7:15 AM, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>This sounds exactly like Area Effect Telekinesis with Fine 
Manipulation - 
>probably with a lot of extra skill levels in TK. I don't understand 
what you 
>mean by "what do you call things that can be done by immaterial 
hands?". Are 
>you perhaps referring to a 'limited' or 'non-advantaged' form of TK? 
>Telekinesis by itself can do more than just a pair of human hands 
could. 
 
Actually, that is what needs work. What can Telekinesis do? Some 
telekinesis is defined as a giant immaterial hand. Such TK would be 
able to pick up large objects but not very small ones. It could cup 
itself and hold water, but not much, and you couldn't form it into a 
ball, much less a statue. 
 
OTOH, a TK defined as a pair of immaterial hands would have Fine 
Manipulation. You could pick up very small objects, and could grab 
people, punch people, and throw them, but you couldn't pick up more 
than a tiny amount of liquid, and you couldn't completely engulf 
something, like a swarm of bees or a leaking container of toxic waste. 
 
There are numerous other options. The problem is that the details of 
what is or isn't possible with TK are very unclear. Is a TK defined as 
a pair of immaterial hands truly limited? If so, what can not limited 
TK do? If so, what do you call TK that can do things that cannot be 
done with your hands, like pick up a ball of water? 
 
 
>This statement sounds like Telekinesis to me. If this really bugs 
you, throw 
>in Extra Limbs for the TK, which is another 'means' of manipulating 
multiple 
>objects with Telekinesis (though you'd have to pick them up/target 
them one 
>at a time). 
 
 
You could do a sweep, but 100 poker chips might be kind of 
difficult.:) 
 
I guess the problem isn't, "How do you model this power," but, "What 
can TK do or not do by default, and how do you purchase powers, 
Advantages, or Limitations to model other possibilities?" 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 00:20:35 EST 
Subject: Re: You can't hit me! 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<< I was inspired by a comic character the other day. No one could hit him 
with any kind of ranged attacked. They simply missed. Whenever they 
consciously attempted to target him, their shot went wide or high. My 
villainess, Misfire, simulated this effect with a FLASH...>> 
 
  I have a villain called "Reflec" who uses a strong Force Field with 
Invisible Power Effects to achieve the same result. Pissed the heroes off 
royaly when they "hit" the villain but were told that their shots narrowly 
missed, as if they were "deflected" at the last moment. Lasers and energy 
would bend, punches were scarcely glancing blows, etc... :)  Fun, fun, fun! 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 21:21:56 -0800 
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On Thursday, January 01, 1998 8:18 AM, Matthew Mactyre wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>I've long since given up arguing about the lethality of Champions.  I 
just 
>attribute its lack of lethality to the genre, and am not willing to 
modify 
>the rules.  The hit location rules can make it somewhat more 
realistic, but 
>let's face it folks -- in comic books both villains and heroes take 
>tremendous amounts of punishment and still show up in the next issue. 
> 
 
 
True, but normals don't. Heroes are always talking or thinking about 
how they would have been killed if their defenses weren't raised. 
Normal people are casually killed by villains all the time, with a 
reasonably good expectation that the normal will die. 
 
Additionally, the Hero System is supposed to be universal. In a 
superhero campaign, a hero being hit with a Light Antitank Weapon and 
living may be acceptable, but it just doesn't cut it in a mercenaries 
campaign. Live, maybe, but minimal and no damage results get downright 
silly. 
 
I think I am going to have to post my "combat realism" house rules. 
They work pretty well, I've found, if one wants a realistic campaign. 
In fact, they don't do too badly for a superhero campaign, though they 
should be optional, particularly as some of them refer to the Hit 
Location chart. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Building the "psychic"... 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 21:31:02 -0800 
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On Thursday, January 01, 1998 8:46 AM, Leah L. Watts wrote: 
 
 
>If the fake psychic draws 
>the Death card during a reading and says it means the client's 
incipient 
>marriage will be a great success, it's going to take one heck of a 
roll 
>to get the client to believe him.  (Or one heck of a Presence 
Attack -- 
>you might want to buy that up as well.) 
 
 
That's an easy one. The Death card symolizes change, not death. The 
card represents the marriage itself. 
 
If it is reversed, then it signifies things not changing, often 
stagnation. In this case, you tell the client that his marriage will 
continue for the forseable future, and that their feelings for each 
other will continue unchanged-- their love will last. 
 
Hmm, maybe I could make money at this.... 
 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Building the "psychic"... 
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 21:38:57 -0800 
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On Thursday, January 01, 1998 7:14 AM, Sparx wrote: 
 
 
>Hey everyone, I'm about to get involved in a Horror Hero games where 
powers 
>aren't allowed, but I thought I'd have some fun and build a "psychic" 
fraud. 
> Just wondering what kind of skills everyone would give and any 
abilities to 
>someone who claims to be psychic but not really.  Thanks and talk at 
you later. 
 
 
Conversation to find out about the person. Persuasion to convince the 
client that they are a real psychic. Professional skills like "Mystic" 
and "Con Artist" are good. Pickpocket and Lockpick are good for 
finding out things about people. ( A good trick for stage magicians is 
have an associate steal a wallet, turn it into the lost and found, and 
watch the psychic tell all about the person without seeing the inside 
of the wallet or the person who 'lost' it.) Investigative skills can 
be useful. The ability to follow the client and not be noticed 
(Shadowing) would also be good. 
 
Be sure to role play the use of "Barnum statements". Barnum statements 
are vague, essentially meaningless statements that a) sound profound, 
and b) people think are about them, when in fact they are so broad 
that _everyone_ thinks they are about them. Things like, "You are 
essentially a friendly person, but sometimes you just like to be 
alone." Most people think of themselves as friendly, and almost anyone 
likes being alone sometimes. Both a semi-hermit and a socialite will 
say that statement is true. 
 
As a side note, a group of psychiatric researchers took a group of 
people, had them answer questionnaires about whether or not they 
believed in psychics, sent them to supposedly authentic psychics who 
were really psychiatrists who did nothing but use Barnum statements as 
readings, and then had them answer questionnaires. After the fake 
psychics, more people believed in psychic powers than before. 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 01:23:46 EST 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 98-01-01 10:09:02 EST, you write: 
 
<< >>>>> "F" == Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> writes: 
  
 F>  No.  Desolidification does not work this way.  It does not make one 
 F>  immune to damage, it makes one insubstantial to the physical 
 F>  world/plane/whatever you want to call it. >> 
  
 Please fix your citation scheme; I wrote this, not you. 
 
I did not write this, it may have been your mailer.  My note, as it appears on 
the champs list, follows.  Please at least give me the benifit of the doubt. 
;) 
 
Begin  previous note here... 
 
In a message dated 97-12-31 10:50:54 EST, you write: 
 
<< F> Well, would it be fair to say that if a character had Desolid, only vs 
 F> fire, 
  
 No.  Desolidification does not work this way.  It does not make one immune 
 to damage, it makes one insubstantial to the physical world/plane/whatever 
 you want to call it. >> 
 
 
Are you sure?  I've built, and seen others build characters made entirely of 
insubstantial energy bought using Desolidification--Physical Only.  In other 
words, if you were to split their Physical being and their Energy being apart, 
the Desolid would only apply to the Physcial being.  Their Energy half would 
act as per normal.  If what you're saying is true, though, they would have to 
buy Affect Physical World on their Energy Blasts, even though they are 
entirely substantial in the Energy realm, and can be hit by Energy Blasts. 
That doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the rules.  By being Desolid in the 
physical world, they can't get hit by physical attacks, but also can't affect 
the physical world... things like working a computer, picking up the about-to- 
go-off bomb, etc.  But as far as anything Energy is concerned, they aren't 
Desolid.  So if they aren't Desolid, why would they have to buy Affects 
Physical (Energy) World?  Champions is supposed to be the game that any 
concept can be worked out, and this seems the best way to make an energy being 
who isn't affected by the physical (tangible) world.  All others I can think 
of would allow an intangible being to be 'touched' if enough damage was done. 
 
'Lynx 
 
...end previous note here. 
 
 
 F> Are you sure? 
  
 	"A character with this Standard Power can become insubstantial -- 
 	allowing him to walk through walls and ignore attacks." 
  
 The ability to walk through walls and ignore attacks is an effect of being 
 insubstantial, not the direct effect of the power. 
  >> 
 
Then how can published heros that use Desolid with Limitations to represent 
being extremely pliable do it?  They use Desolid to be able to slip under 
doors at  with at least x number of inches clearance, which means they aren't 
insubstantial, nor can they walk through walls, nor can they ignore attacks. 
All the benifit of Desolid they get is to ooze under doors.  And that ignores 
the first sentance of Desolid completely. 
 
'Lynx 
 
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 01:36:15 EST 
Subject: Re: Does BODY 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 98-01-01 10:35:52 EST, you write: 
 
<<    The "Does BODY" Advantage first appeared in The Ultimate Mentalist.  Its 
 primary intent was for Ego Attacks and Powers bought BOECV, but it could 
 just as easily be applied to NND and AVLD attacks. 
 --- >> 
 
Ok... I'll have to change a couple of villains now.  Nuts. 
 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 00:46:59 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> >> Not at all.  A power's special effects are the "flavor" it has for that 
> >> particular character.  A power's effect is what it does, as defined by its 
> >> mechanics.  Becoming a cloud of water vapor is a special effect for 
> >> Desolidification; becoming insubstantial is the effect of Desolidification. 
> 
> TRG> 	Nope.  Being a cloud of water vapor is a SFX. 
> 
> What part of, "becoming a cloud of water vapor is a SPECIAL EFFECT for 
> Desolidification," did you manage to miss? 
 
 
	None, but that's not what I said.  I said that being a cloud of 
water vapor is a SFX.  Notice, I did not say "becoming a cloud of water 
vapor is a SFX _for_ _Desolidification_". 
 
	That is unneeded restriction.  I know what I want -- a cloud of 
water vapor.  This provides me with a few things which I will need to 
model with the mechanics of powers in the Hero System.  I think 
Desolidification with a limitation and Flight would probably do the trick. 
Possibly some invisiblity as well, maybe some limited Power Defense. 
 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 01:55:30 EST 
Subject: Re: You can't hit me! 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 98-01-02 00:16:42 EST, you write: 
 
<<  
 I was inspired by a comic character the other day. No one could hit him 
 with any kind of ranged attacked. They simply missed. Whenever they 
 consciously attempted to target him, their shot went wide or high. My 
 villainess, Misfire, simulated this effect with a FLASH 
 Constant/Persistant  AOE radius BOECV Invisible SFX. A limitation on it 
 makes says the only effect of the flash that applied were the OCV 
 modifiers(0 OCV ranged 1/2 OCV HTH) and only vs her. 
  
 She did well against the heros but they were naturally mistified as to 
 why she was so hard to hit. When I explained her power, a couple of them 
 didn't think Flash could work that way. 
  
 Please let me know of some other ways to simulate this "Karma" power. I 
 know Icould of  bought her DCV levels but the ability I was looking for 
 work when the character wasn't even thinking about it. 
  
 Kev >> 
 
I like this!  It seems legal to me.  Of course there are other targeting 
senses they can use to 'see' her, so unless you bought the Flash vs every 
Sense Group, it doens't seem too unbalancing.   
 
As far as other ideas, I supposed you could try something with Images, making 
it look like you were a yard the right.  But then you'd have to buy Indirect 
on all your attacks, to make them appear to originate from the image of you. 
And it would get complicated in close quarters.     
Or how about Invisibility, Invisible Power Effects?  Any takers?   
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
From: "Michael Nunn" <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Organization:  Rising Force Publications 
Date:          Fri, 2 Jan 1998 08:03:58 +0000 
Subject:       The Tick  
Reply-to: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I'm not sure where this came from, I know before I used it I had to  
do a lot of work on it..., 
 
HERO ID: The Tick  
 
Value	Characteristic	Cost	Base	Points 
  45 	Strength         	x1    	10  	35 
  20 	Dexterity        	x3    	10  	30 
  30 	Constitution     	x2    	10  	40 
  14 	Body             	x2    	10   	8 
   8 	Intelligence     	x1    	10  	-2 
  15 	Ego              	x2    	10  	10 
15/40 	Presence         	x1    	10   	5 
  14 	Comeliness       	x1/2  	10   	2 
  40 	Physical Defense	x1     	7  	33 
  30 	Energy Defense	x1     	6  	24 
   4 	Speed            	x10  	3.0  	10 
  11 	Recovery         	x2    	13  	-4 
  60 	Endurance        	x1/2  	60   	0 
  50 	Stun             	x1    	47   	3 
        Characteristics Cost:    194 
Points    Power/Skill             					END Cost 
35 	40/30 Damage Resistance (Tick Powers),"Nigh Invulnerable" 
7 	1 LVLS Growth, Always On(-1/2),0 END Persistent(+1)           	0 
10 	+10" Superleap (Tick Powers)      				2 
10 	+0 STR Clinging (Tick Powers), "Strong Grip" 
17 	11- Danger Sense, able to sense, general area, 
		OIF(-1/2),Antennae 
10 	11" Running                       				2 
2 	Discriminatory Sense (Device), "Secret Crime Viewfinder", 
		Normal Sight, Concentrate(-1/4),No Conscious 
		Control(-2),Gestures (-1/4),OAF(-1),Ranged(+1/2) 
1 	+0 Detect (Device),"Secret Crime Viewfinder", 
		Description: Crime, OAF(-1), Gestures(-1/4), No 
		Conscious Control(-2),Concentrate(-1/4), Ranged(+1/2) 
3 	Ambidexterity 
15 	Followers: Arthur (75pt) 
10 	2 Levels: Hand to Hand Combat related group 
5 	1D6 Luck 
131 : Powers Total 
Disadvantages         BASE: 100+					Points 
Insane                      						15 
Distinctive Features, "Large Blue  Man", not concealable, minor 	15 
Psychological Limitation, "Fear of Having a Lucid Moment", 
	uncommon, moderate 						5 
Hunted, "Chainsaw Vigilante", as powerful, harsh, appears on  8- 	10 
Hunted, "Ninja", less powerful, non-combat influence, harsh, appears 8- 10 
Hunted, "Evanston Asylum", less powerful, non-combat influence, limited 
	area, harsh, appears 8- 					5 
Tick Bonus                      					165 
Disadvantages Total : 222 
            Total Points = 325		325 = Total Cost 
 
 
 
"Herozine" Rising Force Publications "SUPER" RPG 'zine, 
check out our web site at:    
http://users.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: You can't hit me! 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 01:27:05 -0800 
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On Thursday, January 01, 1998 9:40 PM, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
 
>At 12:13 AM 1/2/98 -0500, Kevin J. McClain wrote: 
>>Please let me know of some other ways to simulate this "Karma" 
power. I 
>>know Icould of  bought her DCV levels but the ability I was looking 
for 
>>work when the character wasn't even thinking about it. 
> 
>And DCV levels don't?  To the best of my knowledge, unless you apply 
a 
>limitation to say otherwise, DCV levels are "persistent". 
 
 
But they mean nothing if you are surprised out of combat- your DCV is 
0. Additionally, these levels are of only half-effectiveness if the 
character is surprised in combat. Apparently these interfere with the 
intent of the power. 
 
So, buy the levels with DCV and a large Danger Sense. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 01:36:47 -0800 
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On Thursday, January 01, 1998 9:48 PM, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>Because I can do what you call "hamstringing" without actually 
impeding my 
>ability to create character concepts, and additionally I avoid 
aggravating 
>and munchkiny constructions. 
> 
 
 
Excellent. Then, without the "munchkiny" construct in question, create 
a character who is truly invulnerable to all fire. 
 
I am beginning to think that we need a new clarification to the 5th 
Ed. rules. Either a) all sub effects of any power can be bought 
individually, or b) limitations can explicitly take _any_ sub-effect 
of _any_ power and extract it from the base power. 
 
IOW, either create Invulnerability as a power, or state outright that 
you can make a character invulnerable without making him insubstantial 
while still using Desolidification. 
 
This would also solve the "Density Reduction" problem. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 01:53:28 -0800 
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On Thursday, January 01, 1998 9:54 PM, Stirling Westrup wrote: 
 
 
>So Sayeth qts <qts@nildram.co.uk&> 
 
>> On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:46:32 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
> > 
> >>BTW, for those who like the possibility of rolling _high_ on 
killing 
> >>attacks, I refer them to the critical hit rules (if only I could 
find 
> >>them). 
> > 
> >If you roll half or less the number needed to hit, or a 3 in any 
case, 
> >yo get maximum damage. 
 
 
In the critical hit rules I recall, the automatic critical on a 3 
didn't exist. I have seen it as a house rule only. In my campaign, I 
wouldn't use it anyway, because this means that a person with a roll 
of 3 to hit will _always_ get a critical hit whenever successful. 
 
"I don't know if I can hit him at this distance, but if I do, I 
guarantee he will die." 
 
No, thanks. 
 
Similarly, an 18 in my campaign is not a critical failure. Anyone so 
skilled that they will miss only on an 18 shouldn't have stupid 
critical failures every time they fail. 
 
"I realize that I am the greatest mechanic in the world, but I really 
did think the motor was supposed to go in sideways. I never make small 
mistakes." 
 
In my campaigns, anyone who rolls a 18 or misses their roll by 5 
rerolls. No modifiers on skills or OCV, and the target's DCV is zero. 
If it still fails, then you had a critical failure. 
 
> >EG Megaman needs a 12- to hit Dr Duck, so needs a 6- to score a 
> >critical with his 20d6 HA. 
> > 
> >He rolls a 5 so does 120 Stun and 40 Body. 
> > 
> 
>I used to play with these rules regularly, but ran into difficulty 
the first 
>time the players met a super-large creature. It took up something 
like 30 
>hexes, and so was essentially DCV 0. The characters ALWAYS made 
critical hits, 
>and so always did maximum body and stun. A terrifing monster was thus 
a putz, 
>and died in 2 or 3 turns of battle. Clearly, the rules need some 
modification. 
 
That is also true. The same goes for inanimate objects. A bank vault 
doesn't stand a chance against even a fairly wimpy super using the 
critical hit rules. 
 
"I know I am an ordinary man with martial arts skills, but watch what 
I can to do this bridge." 
 
Filksinger 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net> 
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net> 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 11:00:46 +0000 
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> On Thursday, January 01, 1998 7:50 AM, Amy G. Crittenden wrote: 
> First, Absorption doesn't stop the damage, so he is in trouble from 
> the beginning. Obviously, he has to use his VPP to create defenses 
> right from the start. 
 
Which kinda negates the point of Absorption, IMHO, at least in  
this instance, since the character is trying to turn himself  
into some sort of cosmic battery.							 
 
>  
> However, I haven't found the official 4th Ed rule concerning 
> household current. The last one I saw was in 3rd Ed., and it was 
> only Normal damage if you weren't well grounded. 
>  
> Of course, holding both wires probably counts as well grounded. He 
> would need to ground one wire, and attach the other to his head. 
 
I would rule he's well grounded.  The 4th ed rule is on p 260 of the  
BBB.  I'd probably use the Heavy Household for your example, which  
even tho it's a 2d6 Killing attack, will hit the Stun Lottery  
eventually.   
 
>  
> Of course, the official rule now might be that household current is 
> killing damage, which is one more rule I would have to ditch. Many 
> people, including myself, have had household current going through 
> them, with minimal damage. It may kill if you get it through you 
> long enough, but it doesn't qualify as a killing attack. Maybe a 
> normal attack with a linked BODY Drain. 
 
Most people don't let household current go thru them for more than a  
split second.  Household current is very dangerous--it can literally  
stop your heartbeat in that split second.  People die from household  
electricity every year.  I would definately qualify it as a killing  
attack, from professional experience:  I'm a nurse, and I've seen  
these kinds of injuries first hand.  I used to work in a prison that  
housed Immigration detainees--one Hispanic immigrant was trying to  
use a paper clip to carry enuf current to melt some deoderant (melted  
deoderant turns quite hard, and can be shaped into jewelry) and  
zapped himself.  He developed a cardiac arrthymia, and we nearly had  
to give him a second jolt with a defibrillator to stop the bad heart  
beat.  Everytime you see them yell "Clear!" on some medical show,  
they're not kidding--those paddles are used to STOP the heartbeat,  
not restart it, and if anyone is touching the bed or patient, they  
get zapped too with 240-300 joules, and THEIR heart beat can stop!   
We just hope the heartbeat starts back up on it's own, and that it  
does so in a normal rhythm. 
 
>  
> > By morning, he could take Dr. Destroyer with one hand tied behind 
> > his back. Additionally, the decay time is so long that he could 
> > simply do this every night, getting more and more powerful, with 
> > negligible loss during the day. To top it off, he could use the VPP 
> > to boost the Absorption, causing him to gain points faster, up to 
> > the limit of damage done by a wall socket per segment. He could then 
> > wire himself into a high-voltage system. 
>  
 
> No, _one_. He Absorbs to his maximum Absorption, return rate, and 
> VPP simultaneously, and they build up _slowly_. By the end of the 
> week, the slowly collected points would be a VPP in the thousands. 
> At a point a minute increase in his VPP (assuming that was all that 
> was left after splitting the points, it would be higher), and only 
> charging for eight hours a day, he has a pool over 3000 pts. No hero 
> or villain I have ever created was in that range. Certainly Dr. D 
> wouldn't stand a chance. 
 
Absorption doesn't work that way.  The points you're absorbing into  
your VPP don't stay there permanently.  They stay there for the  
duration of his return rate.  And you can only max out at six points.  
 "The maximum number of points that can be added to any Power or  
Characteristic is the maximum amount that can be rolled on the dice,"  
p 58 BBB.  So you can only add six points to your VPP, max, if you  
only have one die.  Now, you could put up to six points in OTHER  
Powers or Characteristics:  in theory.  Actually, you have to specify  
where the points go when you purchase the Power.  I allow a +2  
Advantage to allow the Absorbed points to go to any Power or  
Characteristic (I allow this for Transfer too, the player I talked  
about last time, Lifeforce, has his Transfer bought that way), but  
you're still limited to the max you can roll on your dice.  Dr. D  
would eat this guy for a light snack.  Sorry :( 
 
---------------- 
Theala Sildorian 
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html 
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page! 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net> 
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net> 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 11:54:46 +0000 
Subject: Re: You can't hit me! 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
sorry about the empty reply--hit the wrong button 
 
> I was inspired by a comic character the other day. No one could hit 
> him with any kind of ranged attacked. They simply missed. Whenever 
> they consciously attempted to target him, their shot went wide or 
> high. My villainess, Misfire, simulated this effect with a FLASH 
> Constant/Persistant  AOE radius BOECV Invisible SFX. A limitation on 
> it makes says the only effect of the flash that applied were the OCV 
> modifiers(0 OCV ranged 1/2 OCV HTH) and only vs her. 
 
The only thing you need to do is remember to apply the Flash Defense  
of the heroes.  You have to roll your Flash to see how many Segments  
they're affected, and give them the benefits of their Flash Defense,  
if any.  Otherwise, it's an odd, if creative, use of the Power.  DCV  
levels would have been simpler mechanically, but in a way the Flash  
is more fair--IF you describe a set of circumstances by which the  
players have a fair chance at getting through ie Flash Defense, and  
circumstances by which they can avoid the Flash. 
 
 
---------------- 
Theala Sildorian 
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html 
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page! 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 98 12:23:29  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Swashbuckler 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 01 Jan 1998 23:08:39 -0500 (EST), ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
 
>Greetings and salutations, 
>	I'm trying to design 'The Ultimate Swashbuckler' for a high powered 
>high fantasy game I am running. 
>	A breif background on the character:  he's a fop, a rake, and a rouge. 
>He tries to avoid actual hack and slash combat;  He would much rather toy with 
>and embarass his foes than kill them outright.  He uses his Dexterity and 
>mobility in combat in lieu of great physical resistance. 
 
<snip> 
 
Not much to do with your request, but for flavour, look at the article 
on Repartee in AC#27 
 
>	How does one represent a 'weapon of opportunity'? 
 
OIF 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 98 12:27:27  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
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On Fri, 2 Jan 1998 01:40:45 +0000, Stirling Westrup wrote: 
 
>So Sayeth qts <qts@nildram.co.uk&> 
> 
>> On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:46:32 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>>  
>> >BTW, for those who like the possibility of rolling _high_ on killing 
>> >attacks, I refer them to the critical hit rules (if only I could find 
>> >them).  
>>  
>> If you roll half or less the number needed to hit, or a 3 in any case, 
>> yo get maximum damage. 
>>  
>> EG Megaman needs a 12- to hit Dr Duck, so needs a 6- to score a 
>> critical with his 20d6 HA. 
>>  
>> He rolls a 5 so does 120 Stun and 40 Body. 
>>  
> 
>I used to play with these rules regularly, but ran into difficulty the first  
>time the players met a super-large creature. It took up something like 30  
>hexes, and so was essentially DCV 0. The characters ALWAYS made critical hits,  
>and so always did maximum body and stun. A terrifing monster was thus a putz,  
>and died in 2 or 3 turns of battle. Clearly, the rules need some modification.  
 
So disallow criticals in such situations, or make the monster have 75% 
Damage Reduction (there's a lot of blubber to get through) 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 98 12:30:26  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
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On Fri, 2 Jan 1998 01:53:28 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
 
>On Thursday, January 01, 1998 9:54 PM, Stirling Westrup wrote: 
> 
> 
>>So Sayeth qts <qts@nildram.co.uk&> 
> 
>>> On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:46:32 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>> > 
>> >>BTW, for those who like the possibility of rolling _high_ on 
>killing 
>> >>attacks, I refer them to the critical hit rules (if only I could 
>find 
>> >>them). 
>> > 
>> >If you roll half or less the number needed to hit, or a 3 in any 
>case, 
>> >yo get maximum damage. 
> 
> 
>In the critical hit rules I recall, the automatic critical on a 3 
>didn't exist. I have seen it as a house rule only. In my campaign, I 
>wouldn't use it anyway, because this means that a person with a roll 
>of 3 to hit will _always_ get a critical hit whenever successful. 
> 
>"I don't know if I can hit him at this distance, but if I do, I 
>guarantee he will die." 
> 
>No, thanks. 
 
It's in the Fantasy Hero sourcebook, possibly the HSR too. 
 
 
>> >EG Megaman needs a 12- to hit Dr Duck, so needs a 6- to score a 
>> >critical with his 20d6 HA. 
>> > 
>> >He rolls a 5 so does 120 Stun and 40 Body. 
>> > 
>> 
>>I used to play with these rules regularly, but ran into difficulty 
>the first 
>>time the players met a super-large creature. It took up something 
>like 30 
>>hexes, and so was essentially DCV 0. The characters ALWAYS made 
>critical hits, 
>>and so always did maximum body and stun. A terrifing monster was thus 
>a putz, 
>>and died in 2 or 3 turns of battle. Clearly, the rules need some 
>modification. 
> 
>That is also true. The same goes for inanimate objects. A bank vault 
>doesn't stand a chance against even a fairly wimpy super using the 
>critical hit rules. 
> 
>"I know I am an ordinary man with martial arts skills, but watch what 
>I can to do this bridge." 
 
So don't make it count vs such objects. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 98 12:33:09  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers 
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On Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:39:55 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
 
>On Thursday, January 01, 1998 7:02 AM, qts wrote: 
> 
> 
><snip> 
>> 
>>But don't forget that the amount he loses every 5 minutes will also 
>go 
>>up proportionally. Sure he might have mega-power for 5 minutes after 
>>his fix, but after that 5 minutes, it's going to vanish like the 
>>morning mist. 
> 
>No. You missed the fact that the points go to the decay rate as well 
>as the maximum Absorbed. Thus, the decay rate by the time the five 
>minutes is up will be much longer than five minutes. 
> 
>>Anyway, I as a GM, would count this as a deliberately 
>>self-inflicted wound therefore bypassing all defenses. 
> 
> 
>So if the Hulk hits himself in the head with your average sword, he'll 
>kill himself? 
 
Yep, straight through the eye. 
 
>If the character Maso-man is knocked off a cliff, his 
>physical Absorption works, but if he jumps, it fails? 
 
In that case, it works both times. 
 
>Too arbitrary. I prefer the suggested rule that adjustment powers 
>cannot feed to their increased time or maximum points added. Less 
>arbitrary. If anyone wants to model this power, they have to actually 
>buy the increased time or maximum points, and add appropriate 
>Limitations as needed. 
 
Sounds good to me. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 98 12:37:58  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
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On Wed, 31 Dec 1997 21:04:40 -0600, Guy Hoyle wrote: 
 
>qts said: 
>>On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:10:33 -0800, Lizard wrote: 
>>>There should be a way to summon specific individuals. Sorcerors call up 
>>>demons by name. The witches on 'Bewitched' could get Ben Franklin or Abe 
>>>Lincoln. (Which brings up another point -- can you buy Summoning with 
>>>Transdimensional to Summon beings from different times?) 
>> 
>>This is usually a Physical Limitation (usually powerful and 
>>extra-dimensional) on the being concerned.  
> 
>I don't understand your reasoning about this.  Why should this be a Physical Limitation on the being involved? Shouldn't it be some kind of Advantage on the Summoning Power instead of a Disad? 
 
Because it's the best and usual way of modelling it. Think about it: 
suppose I was able to transport you to me just by saying, "Hastur! 
Hastur! Hastur!" You'd be pretty inconvenienced, wouldn't you? 
 
Look in the Bestiary and you'll see this sort of thing. 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 05:29:02 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
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At 11:33 PM 1/1/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
> 
>>> Not at all.  A power's special effects are the "flavor" it has for that 
>>> particular character.  A power's effect is what it does, as defined by its 
>>> mechanics.  Becoming a cloud of water vapor is a special effect for 
>>> Desolidification; becoming insubstantial is the effect of 
Desolidification. 
> 
>TRG>  Nope.  Being a cloud of water vapor is a SFX. 
> 
>What part of, "becoming a cloud of water vapor is a SPECIAL EFFECT for 
>Desolidification," did you manage to miss? 
 
   Could one of you please explain how either of you is saying anything 
different from the other on this specific point? 
   For all I can tell, special effect = SFX = special effect = SFX.  Or am 
I missing something in the fine print here? 
--- 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 05:34:06 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Building the "psychic"... 
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At 10:00 AM 1/1/98 -0600, Sparx wrote: 
>Hey everyone, I'm about to get involved in a Horror Hero games where powers  
>aren't allowed, but I thought I'd have some fun and build a "psychic" fraud.  
> Just wondering what kind of skills everyone would give and any abilities to  
>someone who claims to be psychic but not really.  Thanks and talk at you 
later. 
 
   Sleight of Hand and an extremely high Deduction Roll come right to mind. 
 Maybe KS: Metaphysical Lingo, and a couple of levels of Enhanced PER. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
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Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
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Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:44:33 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
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On Fri, 2 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote: 
 
> On Thursday, January 01, 1998 9:48 PM, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
> >Because I can do what you call "hamstringing" without actually 
> >impeding my ability to create character concepts, and additionally I 
> >avoid aggravating and munchkiny constructions. 
>  
> Excellent. Then, without the "munchkiny" construct in question, create 
> a character who is truly invulnerable to all fire. 
 
Completely trivial. Buy enough rED only vs fire to be immune to whatever 
the maximum amount of fire you're even vaguely likely to encounter is, 
and call the special effects "true invulnerability to all fire". 
 
As a bonus, this construction is appropriately costed pretty much by 
definition, whereas the Desolid route is squirrelly. (Why should the 
cost of immunity to fire vary based on the AP of my attack Powers?) 
 
> IOW, either create Invulnerability as a power, or state outright that 
> you can make a character invulnerable without making him insubstantial 
> while still using Desolidification. 
 
You can, but it doesn't work very well. 
 
> This would also solve the "Density Reduction" problem. 
 
What "Density Reduction" problem? 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 05:45:19 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Ideas for 5 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 08:39 PM 1/1/98 -0600, Marc Seebass wrote: 
>I suggest a whole section dedicated to helping people put together concepts 
>that would in many games be one power, but in champions would be many powers 
>with a commun special affect. Things like "Weather Control", "Animal 
>Micmicry", Various forms of Shape shift, and so on. This way you could give 
>hints on which frameworks and powers could be used to simulate such 
>abilities. Updates would be handy. 
 
   Not a bad idea, though this arguably would fit more into the superhero 
genre book rather than the core rules. 
--- 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 05:51:10 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
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At 01:50 PM 1/1/98 EST, ErolB1 wrote: 
>>  The Stun lotto goes a long way to simulating that wide range of effect. 
> 
>Yes, *if the victim takes Body* from the Killing Attack then the Stun 
lotto is 
>reasonable: It does do, as you say, a fairly good job of simulating the wide- 
>ranging effects of "real" killing damage.  
> 
>But what if the Body bounces? In that case I don't think the Stun lotto is so 
>appropriate - certainly not in the case of 4-color superheroes. Instead... 
I'm 
>not sure what, instead. My current house rule is that if a Killing attack 
>fails to do Body damage then the target takes only *half* the Stun damage he 
>otherwise would - i.e. halve the Body rolled before applying the Stun 
>multiplier. I'm not 100% happy with this, however. 
 
   Based on this idea, how about this: 
   Instead of multiplying original BODY to get STUN, multiply the amount of 
BODY that actually gets through the defenses. 
   Some small Advantage can be given for bullets and other attacks that 
still do impact damage even if they don't penetrate armor. 
--- 
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Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 07:01:54 -0700 
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
Subject: Re: You can't hit me! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Kevin J. McClain wrote: 
>  
> I was inspired by a comic character the other day. No one could hit him 
> with any kind of ranged attacked. They simply missed. Whenever they 
> consciously attempted to target him, their shot went wide or high. 
> Please let me know of some other ways to simulate this "Karma" power. I 
> know Icould of  bought her DCV levels but the ability I was looking for 
> work when the character wasn't even thinking about it. 
>  
> Kev 
 
What I have done with this was a little scary, and expensive, but... 
 
Missle Deflection (20) Continous, Uncontrolled +1 1/2 
 
50 points for the shebang, and it takes no time once activated. I rule 
IMC that multiple attacks don't lower the roll (each is just a new 
attack for the now renewed continous power). 
 
--  
-Mhoram 
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 
 two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 06:05:18 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Swashbuckler 
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At 11:08 PM 1/1/98 -0500, ALONE AT MIDNIGHT wrote: 
>Greetings and salutations, 
> I'm trying to design 'The Ultimate Swashbuckler' for a high powered 
>high fantasy game I am running. 
> A breif background on the character:  he's a fop, a rake, and a rouge. 
>He tries to avoid actual hack and slash combat;  He would much rather toy 
with 
>and embarass his foes than kill them outright.  He uses his Dexterity and 
>mobility in combat in lieu of great physical resistance. 
> Using swordplay, he has been able to disarm men of much greater 
>stregnth, often holding many sword fighters at once.  When fighting in a 
duel, 
>he always draws first-- and before his opponent can react, his weapon is 
>already at his side as the befuddled opponent weapon lies, disarmed, at his 
>feet. 
> He can also do various 'tricks.'  Undoing belts, purse straps, 
>bodices, etc. with his sword.  He can also slice through candles and have 
them 
>fall moments later.  He has also been known to bat thrown knives out of 
the air 
>with his blade. 
> Is there any way to 'beef up' a martial disarm (i.e. give it more 
>stregnth)?  How do you attack multiple opponents at close range with only one 
>sword swing?  AoE seems inappropiate...  Fast Draw and Lightning Reflexes 
would 
>work for the speed of the draw, but the actual unexpected quickness? (Would 
>Invisible Power Effects be too much?)  For the 'tricks' I was thinking TK,  
>Fine Manipulation, No Range.  For the 'candle slice'-- Time Delay? 
>Any advice on skillful strikes in the Hero system? 
> How does one represent a 'weapon of opportunity'? 
 
   Well, to take this roughly in order: 
   1. Try several 3-point Combat Skill Levels in Fencing.  Two Combat Skill 
Levels may be applied to increase the Damage Class of an attack; in the 
case of Martial Disarm, this means 2 CSLs => +5 STR.  For opponents that 
are quick but not strong, those CSLs can still be used for OCV. 
   2. No matter what kind of hand-to-hand attack you're using, attacking 
multiple targets at once is the Sweep maneuver (HSR, p 157).  Taking a 
pattern established in various Hero publications, the character could take 
5-point CSLs with the -1 Limitation "Only to Offset Sweep Penalties." 
   3. To Fast Draw and Lightning Reflexes, simply add Sleight of Hand. 
Taking IPE (probably with Sleight of Hand as a RSR) is an option to 
consider, but how much benefit the character would get is questionable. 
   4. Rather than TK, I think I'd call those "swordsman tricks" 1" of 
Stretching with various Limitations such as OAF, and a couple of Limited 
Power applications for what he can't do with it. 
   5. "Skillful Strikes" would just be CSLs, perhaps with a -1 Limitation 
"Only to Offset Hit Location Penalties." 
   6. Per TUMA, a weapon of opportunity is written as OIF.  Sure, it can be 
taken away, but the character can still grab something else.  (Personally, 
I prefer "Weapon of Opportunity" as a separate Limitation which happens to 
overlap OIF.) 
--- 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 06:10:42 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: You can't hit me! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:13 AM 1/2/98 -0500, Kevin J. McClain wrote: 
>I was inspired by a comic character the other day. No one could hit him 
>with any kind of ranged attacked. They simply missed. Whenever they 
>consciously attempted to target him, their shot went wide or high. My 
>villainess, Misfire, simulated this effect with a FLASH 
>Constant/Persistant  AOE radius BOECV Invisible SFX. A limitation on it 
>makes says the only effect of the flash that applied were the OCV 
>modifiers(0 OCV ranged 1/2 OCV HTH) and only vs her. 
> 
>She did well against the heros but they were naturally mistified as to 
>why she was so hard to hit. When I explained her power, a couple of them 
>didn't think Flash could work that way. 
> 
>Please let me know of some other ways to simulate this "Karma" power. I 
>know Icould of  bought her DCV levels but the ability I was looking for 
>work when the character wasn't even thinking about it. 
 
   I think I'd call it an extremely Missile Deflection with IPE and maybe a 
few other Modifiers to get it to work right. 
--- 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 06:13:21 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: You can't hit me! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:27 PM 1/1/98 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>At 12:13 AM 1/2/98 -0500, Kevin J. McClain wrote: 
>>Please let me know of some other ways to simulate this "Karma" power. I 
>>know Icould of  bought her DCV levels but the ability I was looking for 
>>work when the character wasn't even thinking about it. 
> 
>And DCV levels don't?  To the best of my knowledge, unless you apply a 
>limitation to say otherwise, DCV levels are "persistent". 
 
   DCV levels are only persistent if they're a matter of Size.  Otherwise 
they're the equivalent of 0 END -- you have to think about them to use them. 
   However, this method (which I missed when making my own direct reply to 
this) does work about as well as my MD solution, but with the same problem 
which Kevin pointed out. 
--- 
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 06:36:06 -0800 
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On Friday, January 02, 1998 4:29 AM, qts wrote: 
 
 
>On Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:39:55 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
> 
<snip> 
>>So if the Hulk hits himself in the head with your average sword, 
he'll 
>>kill himself? 
> 
>Yep, straight through the eye. 
 
 
Ha, ha, ha. That is a deliberate attempt to bypass his defenses. Not 
the same thing as simply hitting oneself. 
 
Besides, how do you know the Hulk's eyeball isn't invulnerable, too? 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 06:40:52 -0800 
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On Friday, January 02, 1998 4:43 AM, qts wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>Because it's the best and usual way of modelling it. Think about it: 
>suppose I was able to transport you to me just by saying, "Hastur! 
>Hastur! Hastur!" You'd be pretty inconvenienced, wouldn't you? 
> 
 
 
I certainly would, especially with Hastur appearing at the same 
time.<G> 
 
Filksinger 
 
Subject: Re: Building the "psychic"... 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-15,20-22 
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 09:43:11 EST 
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>>If the fake psychic draws 
>>the Death card during a reading and says it means the client's 
>incipient 
>>marriage will be a great success, it's going to take one heck of a 
>roll 
>>to get the client to believe him.  (Or one heck of a Presence 
>Attack -- 
>>you might want to buy that up as well.) 
> 
> 
>That's an easy one. The Death card symolizes change, not death. The 
>card represents the marriage itself. 
 
Looks like you've got a better roll in KS: Tarot than I have :) 
 
Obviously not the best example I could have picked, so let's rephrase 
without one -- if the "psychic" is going to give readings, he'll need 
either a good knowledge of the method being used or basic knowledge (of 
the what card goes where type) and a good roll in some sort of bull**** 
skill to cover mistakes. 
 
Leah 
 
Subject: Re: Ideas for 5 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-3,5-7 
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 09:43:11 EST 
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Just a minor point, but I'd like to see the language relation chart 
cleaned up.  It's a good idea, but it's too hard to read unless you use 
it enough to memorize all the different box types. 
 
Also, I'd like to see sign language added to the chart -- probably at +1 
point for no similarity to sound-based languages. 
 
Leah 
 
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford) 
Subject: Re: You can't hit me! 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 14:57:06 GMT 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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On Fri, 02 Jan 1998 00:13:06 -0500, you wrote: 
 
>I was inspired by a comic character the other day. No one could hit him 
>with any kind of ranged attacked. They simply missed. Whenever they 
>consciously attempted to target him, their shot went wide or high. My 
>villainess, Misfire, simulated this effect with a FLASH 
>Constant/Persistant  AOE radius BOECV Invisible SFX. A limitation on it 
>makes says the only effect of the flash that applied were the OCV 
>modifiers(0 OCV ranged 1/2 OCV HTH) and only vs her. 
> 
>She did well against the heros but they were naturally mistified as to 
>why she was so hard to hit. When I explained her power, a couple of them 
>didn't think Flash could work that way. 
> 
>Please let me know of some other ways to simulate this "Karma" power. I 
>know Icould of  bought her DCV levels but the ability I was looking for 
>work when the character wasn't even thinking about it. 
 
I have a neutral NPC that has bought Reflection, always on, at a high 
level. Ranged attacks just don't hit him at all. I also gave him 
Reflection, only against HTH attacks, always on  to simulate the same 
power against non-ranged combat as well. 
 
Of course, there are still ways to incapacitate this character. Mental 
attacks still work, as do NND attacks and entangles. Just shooting or 
hitting him doesn't at all, though. He's called Mirror, BTW. 
 
John Lansford 
 
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/intro.htm 
 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:05:57 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Punching People into Orbit 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>> # Extra BODY    Extra STR for    Distance 
>>> on KB Roll      Throwing         of Throw/KB 
>>>  
>>>     1           0                    1" 
>>>     2           5                    2" 
>>>     3           10                   4" 
 
<snip-you-get-the-gist> 
 
 
>Since I kicked off much of this discussion, I'd like to mention that even under 
>ideal circumstances, the above distances for Knockback grow to be twenty times 
>as long as they should be, assuming that 1 extra BODY on the KB roll is treated 
>as 50 joules of initial kinetic energy, with every additional BODY doubling the 
>initial energy of the knocked-back character. 
 
Ack! Real world physics in Champions? Heresy! :-) 
 
>Even 
>assuming the body bounces and rolls farther on after it lands, there's no way 
>Spiderman could do 14 BODY with a lucky punch, roll a 4 on his KB dice, and 
 
IIRC, Spidey should have around 35 STR, but Spidey uses Martial Arts (his 
own special style, of course). That's 3D6 off the Knockback, 4D6 if you use 
the optional 'pull an extra dice off it' that I suggested. In order for 
Spidey to punch a normal human 1 kilometer, he has to roll all 6's on his 
attack (1/279936 chance) and then roll all 1's on his KB reduction dice 
(1/1296 chance). Chances of this happening: one in 362,800,000. IOW, not 
likely to happen. 
 
>send Doc Octopus hurtling and bouncing 1 km down the street.  That kind of KB 
>should be reserved for heavyweights like the Thing or Colossus. 
 
Agreed, but by Marvel stats, they only cap out around 60-70 STR (or less!) 
 
>At the low end of the damage scale, treating KB as projectile motion doesn't 
>work--characters won't fly back like a projectile by 2 meters until they have 
>at least 1000 joules of kinetic energy, more than 5 extra BODY.  Low BODY rolls 
>for KB should be treated as the character stumbling or staggering back, with 
>true projectile motion not occurring until 8 or more extra BODY occurs.    
 
Easy, then. Crank the scale down. Make the first couple entries 'no 
knockback' and 'no range throw', make the next couple 'knockdown', then 
start the distance stuff. 
 
>My other points on KB are: 
> 
>1) A knocked-back character won't be launched at the ideal 45 degree angle by 
>every punch and energy blast. 
 
This is simulated by the randomness of the KB dice. I.e. the lower the KB 
dice roll, the closer to 45 degrees it is. 
 
>A character performing a throw can take the time 
>to select the proper launching angle to maximize distance, but the odds favor a 
>KB normally occurring at a less optimal launching angle, shallower or steeper, 
>reducing distance. 
 
Since throwing is done on a STR basis, not a 'random' KB one, this point is 
moot. 
 
>2) Air resistance will reduce KB distances considerably, though this is much 
>more difficult to calculate--so many variables.  
 
Geez, don't even bother with air resistance. We're talking about people 
being punched for kilometers, and you want to interject air resistance?? :-) 
 
>extra BODY, 16 km at 22 extra BODY, and so on.  This method does lack the 
>simplicity of a neat, easy-to-remember table of repeatedly doubling numbers, 
>though.   
 
Well, that was my idea; nice easy table to remember. Besides, you average 
human isn't 100 kg; more like 60-75kg. 
 
>While the official rules don't reflect KB and throwing distances in a realistic 
>fashion, often giving numbers that are too low, the above tables go too far in 
>the opposite direction. 
 
Maybe, but it is nice and clean and simple. 
 
>Consider the following:  Maybe Hero Games should bring in Bill Nye the Science 
>Guy as a consultant on the 5th edition rules. 
 
Aaaagh! Not Bill Nye! Anyone but Bill Nye! 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:06:02 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: RE: The Ultimate Swashbuckler 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  You can 'beef up' the Martial Disarm by buying extra Damage Classes 
> (+1 DC / +5 STR) maybe with a Limitation: Only Applies to Martial Disarm 
 
Specifically prohibited. You cannot take limitations on Martial Arts 'Extra 
DC'. You gotta buy limited STR instead. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 07:30:29 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Does BODY 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:19 PM 1/1/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>On Thursday, January 01, 1998 6:37 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
> 
><snip> 
>>   The "Does BODY" Advantage first appeared in The Ultimate 
>Mentalist.  Its 
>>primary intent was for Ego Attacks and Powers bought BOECV, but it 
>could 
>>just as easily be applied to NND and AVLD attacks. 
> 
> 
>Close, but no cigar. The "Does BODY" Advantage dates back to a 3rd Ed. 
>book. I think it was Fantasy Hero, or possibly the original Bestiary. 
 
   I stand corrected (several times).   :-] 
   Maybe I should have said that it first appeared *for Fourth Edition* in 
TUM. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 07:38:45 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Languages 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:43 AM 1/2/98 EST, Leah L Watts wrote: 
>Just a minor point, but I'd like to see the language relation chart 
>cleaned up.  It's a good idea, but it's too hard to read unless you use 
>it enough to memorize all the different box types. 
> 
>Also, I'd like to see sign language added to the chart -- probably at +1 
>point for no similarity to sound-based languages. 
 
   As a person with 1 point in ASL and some meagre knowledge of the topic 
in general, I can give you this data: 
   American Sign Language (ASL) is in fact one of three closely-related 
sign languages in use in the USA, one of the other two being Signed English 
(the name of the third escapes me right at the moment). 
   I would give the group 4 points of similarity with each other, and 1 
point of similarity with English. 
   On a similar topic, I would allow Literacy in any alphabet of syllabary 
for 1 point, to cover *all* languages that use that alphabet or syllabary. 
A pictoral written language like Chinese should be treated as a whole 
separate language, with 2 points of similarity to the language(s) it's used 
for. 
   (Brian Wong or someone else can probably correct me if I'm off base 
here, but my understanding is that the various Chinese languages, though 
quite different in spoken form, use largely the same pictographis in their 
written forms.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 02 Jan 1998 10:46:41 -0500 
Lines: 29 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
>> What part of, "becoming a cloud of water vapor is a SPECIAL EFFECT for 
>> Desolidification," did you manage to miss? 
 
BG>    Could one of you please explain how either of you is saying anything 
BG> different from the other on this specific point? 
 
Tim left off the "for Desolidification" part, thus making his statement 
different from mine just so as to disagree with me.  Or at least that is 
what he appears to be doing. :) 
 
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Origin of "Does BODY" advantage 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 02 Jan 1998 10:49:30 -0500 
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Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> Close, but no cigar. The "Does BODY" Advantage dates back to a 3rd Ed. 
F> book. I think it was Fantasy Hero, or possibly the original Bestiary. 
 
Nope, it first appeared in "Gadgets!" as an advantage for AVLD attacks.  It 
was never intended to be used for NND attacks -- for that you should be 
looking at Drain. 
 
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 02 Jan 1998 10:52:00 -0500 
Lines: 35 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
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>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> Ah. Sorry, I thought you had said you weren't going to change the cost 
F> of STR in a previous post. 
 
Nope, I said that the cost of Strength would be adjusted after the fourth 
corner of the damage powers square had been filled. 
 
F> If you wanted to do it this way, fine, but I wouldn't want to have it as 
F> an official rule. I am adamantly opposed to changing the cost of 
F> STR. I'll play Fuzion first. 
 
The only reason to keep the cost of Strength as is, is legacy.  That is why 
it was not changed in the fourth edition, and that is why the costs of 
other powers were not adjusted.  If this hypothetical 5th edition is 
supposed to be "Hero done right", then the cost should be changed to 
reflect its usefulness. 
 
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: You can't hit me! 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 02 Jan 1998 10:58:01 -0500 
Lines: 31 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
>> And DCV levels don't?  To the best of my knowledge, unless you apply a 
>> limitation to say otherwise, DCV levels are "persistent". 
 
BG>    DCV levels are only persistent if they're a matter of Size.  Otherwise 
BG> they're the equivalent of 0 END -- you have to think about them to use 
BG> them. 
 
Technically correct; combat skill levels must be allocated at the start of 
every action phase.  However, nothing prevents a player from informing a GM 
that under normal circumstances, his DCV-only CSLs are "on DCV" as they 
cannot be used for anything other than that. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: RE: New Year's Predictions 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:58:04 -0500 (EST) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> >   3.  Hanson's sitcom will be....>snip< 
>  
> Ahhh!  A more truer proof of the existence of evil 
> has never been offered! 
>  
 
What about Spice Girls: The Movie? 
 
-Eric 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 98 16:27:49  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 2 Jan 1998 06:36:06 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
 
>On Friday, January 02, 1998 4:29 AM, qts wrote: 
> 
> 
>>On Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:39:55 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>> 
><snip> 
>>>So if the Hulk hits himself in the head with your average sword, 
>he'll 
>>>kill himself? 
>> 
>>Yep, straight through the eye. 
> 
> 
>Ha, ha, ha. That is a deliberate attempt to bypass his defenses. Not 
>the same thing as simply hitting oneself. 
 
Which was the distinction I originally made. 
 
>Besides, how do you know the Hulk's eyeball isn't invulnerable, too? 
 
No idea - I don't read comics. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 98 16:30:55  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 2 Jan 1998 06:40:52 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
 
>On Friday, January 02, 1998 4:43 AM, qts wrote: 
> 
> 
><snip> 
>>Because it's the best and usual way of modelling it. Think about it: 
>>suppose I was able to transport you to me just by saying, "Hastur! 
>>Hastur! Hastur!" You'd be pretty inconvenienced, wouldn't you? 
>> 
> 
> 
>I certainly would, especially with Hastur appearing at the same 
>time.<G> 
 
By which time I'd have TPorted away, leaving you as the sacrifice :}. 
Unfortunately Big H only appears when Betelgeuse (or is it The Hyades?) 
is above the horizon. 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 11:43:05 -0500 (EST) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
> IOW, either create Invulnerability as a power, or state outright that 
> you can make a character invulnerable without making him insubstantial 
> while still using Desolidification. 
>  
> This would also solve the "Density Reduction" problem. 
>  
> Filksinger 
>  
>  
 
Only if you eliminate the required +2 advantage to effect the real world. 
 
-Eric 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org> 
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> 
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 17:23:31 +0000 
Subject: Re: Magic Shapeshifting Potions 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
So Sayeth David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com&> 
 
> On 12/31/97 6:07 PM, Stirling Westrup (sti@CAM.ORG) Said: 
>  
> >And after you've modeled the potion, how do you model the alchemist who  
> >makes a  
> >living creating and selling such potions? 
>  
> let him buy Transform, liquid to magic potion. He is an npc after all... 
 
No, actually he's also a player, running in the thursday night campaign. Any  
job an NPC can have, a player can have. (Yes, even Emperor or God.) And  
any technique you let an NPC use, you must let a player use, or you, as GM are  
cheating. I certainly wouldn't play in any game where the GM did that sort of  
stunt, nor would I expect anyone to play in my game if I did it. 
--  
 Stirling Westrup  |  Use of the Internet by this poster 
 sti@cam.org       |  is not to be construed as a tacit 
                   |  endorsement of Western Technological 
                   |  Civilization or its appurtenances. 
 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:37:51 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: RE: The Ultimate Swashbuckler 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  I don't doubt what you say is true, but where is this prohibition? 
>I haven't seen or heard of it before. 
 
>>  You can 'beef up' the Martial Disarm by buying extra Damage Classes 
>> (+1 DC / +5 STR) maybe with a Limitation: Only Applies to Martial Disarm 
> 
>Specifically prohibited. You cannot take limitations on Martial Arts 'Extra 
>DC'. You gotta buy limited STR instead. 
 
The Ultimate Martial Artist, page 124, "Limited Extra DCs": 
 
"Some players will come to the conclusion that if you can buy +1 Extra DC 
with all those uses, you should be able to buy +1 Extra DC for only one 
(say, +1D6 only to normal damage attacks) for, oh, 1 or 2 points. 
 
That's not true. That's not allowed. It's abusive to the rules and to a 
campaign for which it's allowed. For this reason, it's forbidden." 
 
While you might view all of TUMA as 'optional', this is a pretty strong and 
clear indication that the folks at HERO think limited Extra DC for martial 
arts is a very, very abusive idea that shouldn't be allowed. Like someone 
else mentioned, you can use Combat Levels to increase your chances. 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Reply-To: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
From: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
Subject: Need help with an item 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:57:07 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Hi! 
 
I want to make up a sword whose damage cannot be healed except through 
normal means - healing Aid, etc. will not work.  Does anyone have any 
suggestions? 
 
 
 
Lisa Hartjes 
beren@unforgettable.com 
Home:  http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/daniken/79 
"You met these things before.  What did you do?" 
<said with a grin>"I died." 
(Alien Resurrection) 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Special Effect Reduction (was Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts...) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 02 Jan 1998 13:06:30 -0500 
Lines: 40 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "EB" == Eric Burns <burns@usmcug.usm.maine.edu> writes: 
 
EB> Only if you eliminate the required +2 advantage to effect the real world. 
 
I would not use Desolidification as the basis for an "invulnerability" 
power, primarilly because it is *not* a defense power.  I would look at 
Damage Reduction instead. 
 
So, starting with Damage Reduction, I warp things slightly.  Instead of 
physical, energy, and mental DR, there is reduction based on a special 
effect -- if it is a valid Elemental Control special effect it is a valid 
(Special) Effect Reduction (this should go a long way towards curtailing 
overly broad Elemental Controls :).  SE Reduction vs. Fire provides damage 
reduction against all fire effects, but no protection against any other 
effects.  SE Reduction has four cost brackets: 25%, 50%, 75%, 100% for 30, 
60, 90, and 120 active points, respectively.  There is no distinction 
between "normal" and "resistant" SE Reduction.  The power normally does not 
cost Endurance. 
 
There is a big "STOP" sign on this power.  Like NND, characters should have 
no more than 1 instance of Special Effect Reduction without special 
dispensation from the GM. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
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Subject: Re: Building the "psychic"... 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 98 13:06:48 -0500 
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From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
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On 1/1/98 11:00 AM, Sparx (psansone@i1.net) Said: 
 
>Hey everyone, I'm about to get involved in a Horror Hero games where powers  
>aren't allowed, but I thought I'd have some fun and build a "psychic" fraud.  
> Just wondering what kind of skills everyone would give and any abilities to  
>someone who claims to be psychic but not really.  Thanks and talk at you  
>later. 
 
I'm surprised no one else mentioned it, but I would throw Seduction in  
there, whether you use it to make romantic overtures, or just friendly  
ones. Also good would be sleight-of-hand and a KS to cover special  
effects & props, for the floating tables and eerie apparitions. 
 
                                         |  David A. Fair 
        Think Different                  |  SDS International 
                                         |  dfair@sdslink.com 
 
From: Fvigil <Fvigil@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:12:38 EST 
Subject: Re: Units of Measure 
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Well, they could replace Inches withHexes throughout the book.  Movement,  
ranges, etc.. would then be listed in Hexes.  No real change to the rules,  
just a change of terminology to get rid of the strange mix of inces and  
metric. 
  
    Fernando - who says Stay metric! 
 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:12:39 -0500 
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org> 
Subject: Need help with an item 
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>  
> I want to make up a sword whose damage cannot be healed except through 
> normal means - healing Aid, etc. will not work.  Does anyone have any 
> suggestions? 
 
I'd buy a separate RKA, 0 END Continuous Uncontrolled, with the following 
limitation: "only to counter non-normal healing". The value of the limitation 
depends on rarity of non-normal healing in the game. The condition for 
stopping the Uncontrolled aspect is healing the wound normally. 
 
Technically, this gives you a "time lag" effect; the wound is healed, then 
immediately re-opens. I'd call it special effects if you wanted to say that th 
healing just fails.  
 
Geoff Speare 
 
From: Fvigil <Fvigil@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:20:43 EST 
Subject: Re: Using skills... 
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I always have used the following: 
  
  A player tries to pick the lock (roll a paramedic roll, whatever).  This 
takes him however long I as the GM declare the minimum time to be (lets say 1 
minute for this).  He rolls his base chance. If he suceeds great, if he fails: 
 
   He keep trying - but he does not get another roll until the next time 
interval has passed.  (That is: if the first try took 1 minute, he must try 
again for 5 minutes, etc..) Since this extra time interval gives a bonus to 
his success chance, he is entitled to another roll.  If he succeeds great, if 
not he can keep working through the next time interval (1 hour?).   
 
   At some point, he will reach the point where he can't wait the extra time, 
or a point where I as the GM say thats it.  
 
   Fernando 
 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 13:27:51 -0500 
From: Bruce Crow <BCROW@cnmc.org> 
Subject: Re: Languages Chinese 
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>>> Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 01/02/98 10:38am    
A pictoral written language like Chinese should be treated as a whole 
separate language, with 2 points of similarity to the language(s) it's used 
for. 
   (Brian Wong or someone else can probably correct me if I'm off base 
here, but my understanding is that the various Chinese languages, 
though quite different in spoken form, use largely the same pictographis 
in their written forms.)<<< 
 
This is generally true. Written Chinese is consistent in that it uses 
mandarin grammar, sentence structure, etc. regardless of the dialect of 
the target reader. However, Cantonese does have a written form (used 
mostly for books targeted at less literate people) which uses regular 
characters (with a couple of exceptions) but in Cantonese grammar. 
 
The advent of simplified characters (pictographs) confuses matters. 
People in Taiwan learn traditional characters. When they see a simplified 
character, they can usually guess which character it replaces. The 
reverse does not work. A person in mainland China who learned only 
simplified characters (most people) could not look at a traditional 
character version and figure out which simplified character was 
equivalent. Thus they are mutually intelligible in one direction only. 
 
The same applies in spoken Chinese. My friends in Hong Kong, who 
speak Cantonese and could read (all of them), could understand what a 
mandarin speaking person was saying, but could not speak it very well. 
This was because of the written language being the same. But my 
mandarin friends would throw up their hands trying to make out what a 
Cantonese speaking person was saying. 
 
Though this trivia would probably never come up in a champions game, 
anything written in Chinese prior to 1912 would be completely 
unintelligible to anyone except a Chinese ancient languages scholar. Prior 
to that date, all written documents were still written in the Chinese 
writing style codified by the Chin emperor (3rd century BC?) which is the 
cultural equivalent of our writing in Latin. Mostly the same characters, 
just different grammar.  
 
Sorry for the only slightly relevant tangent. 
 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:42:23 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Need help with an item 
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Lisa Hartjes writes: 
> I want to make up a sword whose damage cannot be healed except through 
> normal means - healing Aid, etc. will not work.  Does anyone have any 
> suggestions? 
  
Urk.  To do this entirely within the system, link a minor transform to the 
attack, with the effect of causing wounds from the blade not to heal.  
Otherwise, you might want to just call it an advantage on the attack (+1/4 or 
+1/2, not sure what I'd call it). 
 
Subject: Re: Magic Shapeshifting Potions 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 98 13:46:23 -0500 
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From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
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On 12/31/97 6:07 PM, Stirling Westrup (sti@CAM.ORG) Said: 
 
>So how do you model the classical fantasy 'magic potion', such that a player 
>character can find one in a chest and be able to use it. Drinking it lets  
>the  
>hero turn into any animal he wants, for up to 1 hour. 
> 
>And after you've modeled the potion, how do you model the alchemist who  
>makes a  
>living creating and selling such potions? 
 
let him buy Transform, liquid to magic potion. He is an npc after all... 
 
                                         |  David A. Fair 
        Think Different                  |  SDS International 
                                         |  dfair@sdslink.com 
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 10:54:14 -0800 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: Need help with an item 
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At 12:57 PM 1/2/98 -0500, Lisa Hartjes wrote: 
>Hi! 
> 
>I want to make up a sword whose damage cannot be healed except through 
>normal means - healing Aid, etc. will not work.  Does anyone have any 
>suggestions? 
> 
It seems some of suppress vs. Aid is the beginning point, but how do you 
make the suppress 'stick' to the person hit by the sword? Damn. That's a 
tough one, but it's a pretty common motif in fantasy, so the system ought 
to cover it. 
 
If the construction ends up being too baroque, I'd recommend calling it an 
advantage, maybe a +1/4 (It's not all that important, unless aid plays a 
BIG part in your games. If aid is very rare, you might just call it a 
special effect.) 
 
I think some general forms of 'healing' advantages should be written up, 
perhaps as follows: 
 
Slow Healing (body recovery occurs one step down on the time chart (instead 
of recovery/10 per day, recovery/10 per week)) +1/4, can be taken multiple 
times (each time moving it one step futher down the time chart) 
 
Natural Healng Only:The damage done by this attack is unaffected by Aid 
(-1/4) (There should be some Advantage purchasable for Aid to defeat this, 
much like Armor Piercing/Hardened) 
 
Limitations: 
Fast Healing:Wounds caused by this power heal rapidly, one step up on the 
time chart for each level of the disadvantage (-1/4) 
 
These three ought to let you simulate a wide variety of weapons and 
effects. Fast Healing is good for something like a neural whip so painful 
it causes body (and theoretically kill), but which does relatively little 
cellular damage and thus can be recovered from quickly. 
 
These would see a lot more use in heroic, as opposed to 4-color, games, as 
well. 
 
(I know some people object to any kind of new advantage, limitation, or 
power. But I'd rather have a 2-line advantage then ten lines of powers, 
limitations, and modifiers to accomplish the same thing.) 
 
From: Fvigil <Fvigil@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:12:45 EST 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
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In a message dated 98-01-02 10:54:40 EST, you write: 
 
> The only reason to keep the cost of Strength as is, is legacy.  That is why 
>  it was not changed in the fourth edition, and that is why the costs of 
>  other powers were not adjusted.  If this hypothetical 5th edition is 
>  supposed to be "Hero done right", then the cost should be changed to 
>  reflect its usefulness. 
 
Steve Paterson has already stated that the cost co Characteristics will NOT 
change in 5th edition.  Also,I don't recall seeing it called "Hero done 
right."  I figure each updated edition is "Hero done better."   
 
   Fernando 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: [5th ed] Wishlist part 1 of 2 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:34:14 -0500 (EST) 
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Here is my list of suggestions for changes to the powers section 
for the 5th edition.  Sorry it's a bit long, but I'm on winter  
break and have too much time on my hands. 
-=- 
A "Density Reduction" power is needed.  2pts per 1/2x mass, maybe? 
Shrinking with the "Mass Reduction Only" limitation is an ugly 
kludge and should not be necessary. 
-=- 
The Enhanced Senses power "Detect" has too vague a description.  It 
needs to be stated clearly what sort of detects are allowable and 
which ones aren't, and how accurate they are.  The accuracy and 
usefulness of a detect should also figure into its cost. 
-=- 
You need to add a Touch sense group. 
-=- 
Force Wall is too expensive in it's current cost construction.  You 
should be able to buy the strength of the wall and the size of the 
wall seperately.  It's too inflexible to have the size of the wall 
directly dependant on the active points.  
-=- 
A Life Support vs. Violent death (character will recover BODY at  
normal rate no matter how low it is) would help make a lot of 
character concepts more possible.  I liked the suggestion that 
someone made that it should cost 30 pts for full immunity, and 
20 pts for immunity with exceptions (like stake though the heart 
or sunlight for vampires).  
-=- 
Regeneration is far too cheap.  I like the suggestion that has been  
made to base regeneration on the time chart so that 10 pts of regen  
means that you get your REC in body back every week, 20 pts means  
every day and so forth.  Regeneration should also have an advantage 
to allow you to grow back limbs and lost body parts. 
-=- 
Shape Shift should have a (+1/2) advantage that you can buy that would 
allow you to exactly duplicate the appearance of  person or object (of  
a type you could normally shape shift into) without a disguise roll.   
Characters with an inherant ability to exactly duplicate another's  
appearance are not necessarily masters of disguise (with knowledge of  
makeup, costume, etc) and this seems a less kludgy way to do  
Mystique-type characters.  It also should be stated that, dependinding  
on the special effects, Shape Shift allows small changes in mass and  
size (within the same mass and size class). 
-=- 
Under Shrinking, you should introduce the limitation "Weak Shrinking" 
a la Dave Mattingly's Power Points article.  Weak Shrinking would be 
a -1 Limitation that would decrease your STR by 5pts for every level 
you shrink.  Maybe this limitation should affect movement rates, ED, 
and/or PD as well.  Also, when any two characters of different sizes 
fight, the smaller character should get DCV and OCV advantages, and 
the larger character should get DCV and OCV penalties. 
-=- 
There should be a "Slipping" power to cause people to fall over if they 
move too fast.  This is one of the few powers that seem impossible to 
do under the current rules. 
-=- 
Stretching is ridiculously expensive.  Try 2pts or 3pts per 1".  Also, 
it should be clearly stated that stretching allows you to stretch 
around walls and such to reach a hex (unless you take a limitation 
to restrict this). 
-=- 
For Telepathy, you need to more clearly state what each effect 
level means.  What's the difference between a "surface thought", a 
"deep, hidden thought", a "memory", and a "subconscious" thought??!   
Give examples.  You should also introduce a "senses feed" option 
whereby you could see, hear, etc whatever the target is experiencing 
(+5 pts per sense, +10 pts per sense group) if you make telepathic  
contact.  Using Clairsentience to simulate this ability is far too 
expensive for what it's worth. 
-=- 
Teleportation is too expensive, especially long-range teleportation. 
Long range NCM Teleportation won't help you in combat, so there is 
no harm in making it much cheaper.  2x distance shouldn't cost more 
than 2pts per doubling.  Also, introduce a Gateway advantage that  
would make the teleportation work by way of a portal that anyone could  
walk through. 
-=- 
The Transform power needs a complete rewrite!  It is far too vague, and 
has some problems.  First of all, it needs to be clearly stated whether, 
how, and by how much the point total of a victim can be changed as a 
result of each type of transform.  Secondly powers that are more useful 
should cost more, so that turning someone into a marble statue (major 
transform) should cost more than blinding someone (major transform). 
Thirdly, this power is the most likely to confuse or be misused, so you 
need to have LOTS AND LOTS OF EXAMPLES.  Don't be afraid to fill up two  
pages on the description of this power! 
-=- 
Almost every power needs a more detailed description with MORE EXAMPLES! 
-=- 
Add some new Area of Effect advantages like AoE: Two Targets (to  
simulate things like a pair of guns, each fired at a different 
target).  Also, you need to be explicit about how existing AoE's 
operate within 3d Space: is AoE: Radius a disk or a sphere, for 
instance? 
-=- 
Invisible Power Effects should be cheaper, at least for non-attack 
powers. 
-=- 
Linked needs a much clearer description.  You need to be brave and 
take sides in the GLD!  This issue must be settled! 
 
-Eric 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: [5th ed] Wishlist part 2 of 2 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:35:52 -0500 (EST) 
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Here is my list of suggestions for changes to everything but the  
powers section for the 5th edition.  Sorry it's a bit long, but  
I'm on winter break and have too much time on my hands. 
-=- 
SKILLS: 
-=- 
Consider making non-combat skills cheaper.  Skills like Acting,  
Conversation, and Oratory should have a base cost of 2 and a +1 level 
cost of 1.  The same should go for any skill that is not useful in 
combat (like breakfall or acrobatics) or extremely versitile or useful  
(like stealth or mechanics).  This will encourage players to create 
more well-rounded characters.  You really need to emphasize the 
importance of skills! 
-=- 
PERKS: 
-=- 
If a character is famous (as opposed to infamous) he/she should have  
to buy the "famous" Fringe Benefit to reflect the special treatment 
that he/she is likely to receive.  This would be offset by a 
Public ID disadvantage.  The bottom line is that  there should be a  
point difference between good famous (eg Gina Davis) and bad famous  
(eg Charlie Manson). 
-=- 
"No Reluctance to Kill" should be a Fringe Benefit, since it gives 
a character one hell of an advantage in a fight.  This would cost 
5pts and allow you to kill your enemies without hesitation.  A 
stronger version "Completely Evil" would cost 10pts and allow you 
to commit any evil act, no matter how vile, without even the smallest 
bit of reluctance.  The cost could be offset with Psych Disads. 
-=-   
Contacts should be broadened to include groups of people, like the 
New York Underworld or the FBI.  This would represent an information 
network not dependant on a single person but on a number of people 
out of whom you could bribe or cajole information.  This would cost 
3/2 (not 2/1) since it is less fragile than a single person (you don't  
have to worry abou Jimmie the Hat being killed in a drug deal gone bad 
or whatever). 
-=- 
TALENTS: 
-=- 
New talent: <environment> movement.  This would allow a character to 
ignore penalties normally imposed on movement and actions in a strange 
environment.  This talent has to be bought seperately for each 
environment.  Examples include Underwater Movement and Zero-Gravity 
Movement.  Someone who had one of these powers would ignore the normal 
penalties to OCV, DCV, and skills imposed in that environment. 
-=- 
Add a bunch of new talents from the various supliments.  
-=- 
POWER FRAMEWORKS: 
-=- 
Make Elemental Control an optional rule.  Generally speaking, it only 
rewards players for doing what they should be doing anyway: building 
cohesive characters. 
-=- 
DISADVANTAGES: 
-=- 
150 pts of disadvantages is too much!  You either get blind, one-armed, 
blue-skinned, berserk-prone, pet-owning  psychopaths on the run from  
3 seperate organizations or you get characters with frivolous  
disadvantages (eg "seeker of eternal truth", "homesick", or 
"hatred of lowlives and criminals").  Try 150 base pts + 100 pts 
for disadvantages for the recommended default, and similar ratios 
for higher power levels (the lower power levels have about the right 
ratios).  
-=- 
The Reputation disadvantage should be worth less if the reputation is 
positive. 
-=- 
CHARACTER EXAMPLES 
-=- 
You should include examples of all of the very common super-hero 
archtypes like the Speedster (eg Flash) and the Mentalist (eg 
Psylocke) so beginning players can see how to build these.  Also, 
explain the special effects and the rational of the powers chosen 
so players can see why the character was built the way it was. 
Most importantly, set a good example and make sure that all the 
NPCs have a reasonable amount of skills and don't have any stupid, 
excessive, or fivolous disadvantages.  The current character 
examples in the BBB are horrible in this regard! 
-=- 
MISC 
-=- 
INDEX! INDEX! INDEX! INDEX! INDEX! 
 
 
-Eric 
 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:59:28 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
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On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, Filksinger wrote: 
 
> Close, but your weighting is biased. You should also calculate the 
> point at which a OCV is so high that anything higher is functionally 
> equivalent. Lets take an extreme number and say a 25 OCV. This gives 
> you a weighted average of 12.5 OCV. High, yes, but not as extreme as 
> the situation you make out. 
> To do this properly, calculate the point at which your OCV gives you a 
> hit only on a 3- under any normal circumstances in your campaign, and 
> the point at which your OCV hits on a 17- under any normal 
> circumstances. Then, using these numbers, do your "weighted average". 
 
I believe it's still a bad idea to say that there's a point at which all 
higher OCV's are functionally equivalent. Doing so allows hit 
circumstances that can be unpredictable (autofire? called shots? range 
penalties?)... similarly for skill rolls. And in the case of damage, 
calculating a weighted average with a maximum seems difficult at 
least. 
 
Champions is a system where I think it's a good idea to keep the numbers 
and their analysis near each other for both attack and defense. We should 
have a system where I'm rolling against someone's defenses, not rolling 
regardless of defenses. STUN lotto, etc. are cases where a player is 
generally making a roll that has little to do with the target's defenses 
and more to do with the result of a one-sided roll. 
 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 11:59:30 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist part 1 of 2 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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Eric Burns writes: 
> Here is my list of suggestions for changes to the powers section 
> for the 5th edition 
> -=- 
> A "Density Reduction" power is needed.  2pts per 1/2x mass, maybe? 
> Shrinking with the "Mass Reduction Only" limitation is an ugly 
> kludge and should not be necessary. 
Nor is it necessary.  Density reduction is a special effect. 
> -=- 
> The Enhanced Senses power "Detect" has too vague a description.  It 
> needs to be stated clearly what sort of detects are allowable and 
> which ones aren't, and how accurate they are.  The accuracy and 
> usefulness of a detect should also figure into its cost. 
What detects are allowable is a function of what detects the GM wants to allow. 
This would appear to be intentionally vague. 
> -=- 
> Force Wall is too expensive in it's current cost construction.  You 
> should be able to buy the strength of the wall and the size of the 
> wall seperately.  It's too inflexible to have the size of the wall 
> directly dependant on the active points.  
Not convinced its too expensive, but separating size and def might be nice.  
Also, it might be nice adding an option to buy body for a force wall. 
> -=- 
> Stretching is ridiculously expensive.  Try 2pts or 3pts per 1".  Also, 
> it should be clearly stated that stretching allows you to stretch 
> around walls and such to reach a hex (unless you take a limitation 
> to restrict this). 
The cost of stretching should probably be non-linear.  In my experience, 1-2" 
of stretching is _very_ useful, but it gets progressively less useful.  Perhaps 
make it 10 pts per doubling in reach, or some such. 
> -=- 
> Add some new Area of Effect advantages like AoE: Two Targets (to  
> simulate things like a pair of guns, each fired at a different 
> target).  Also, you need to be explicit about how existing AoE's 
> operate within 3d Space: is AoE: Radius a disk or a sphere, for 
> instance? 
Yes ;).  Which it is depends on your choice when you buy the power. 
> -=- 
> Invisible Power Effects should be cheaper, at least for non-attack 
> powers. 
The cost of IPE is kind of bugged for powers which only affect the user. 
 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 15:23:33 -0600 
From: A Kirkland <ajk117@mail.usask.ca> 
Subject: Re: Building the "psychic"... 
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At 13:06 98/01/02 -0500, David Fair wrote: 
>On 1/1/98 11:00 AM, Sparx (psansone@i1.net) Said: 
> 
>>Hey everyone, I'm about to get involved in a Horror Hero games where powers  
>>aren't allowed, but I thought I'd have some fun and build a "psychic" 
fraud.  
>> Just wondering what kind of skills everyone would give and any abilities 
to  
>>someone who claims to be psychic but not really.  Thanks and talk at you  
>>later. 
> 
>I'm surprised no one else mentioned it, but I would throw Seduction in  
>there, whether you use it to make romantic overtures, or just friendly  
>ones. Also good would be sleight-of-hand and a KS to cover special  
>effects & props, for the floating tables and eerie apparitions. 
> 
>                                         |  David A. Fair 
>        Think Different                  |  SDS International 
>                                         |  dfair@sdslink.com 
> 
> 
 
Don't Forget Deduction. You can even you it to convince yourself  
	you are Psychic ( with the right Psych LIms ). 
A Kirkland 
 
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 07:30:04 +1000 
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
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At 02:45 AM 12/31/97 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote: 
>>Am I the only one who doesn't think the Stun Lotto is bad?  To me, it adds to 
>>the excitement of the gaming experience because it brings with it a very 
>>*real* *fear* when those potentially high-rolling dice are being thrown in 
>>your direction.  And that is *exactly* what a person looking down the wrong 
>>end of a Killing Attack *should* be feeling at that moment... *fear*! 
>Perhaps 
>>it just hasn't come up that much in our game, but it simply hasn't been a 
>>problem.  Comments? 
> 
>I agree completely.  If you don't want randomness, why are you playing a 
>dice-based game, anyway?   
> 
>Scott 
> 
> 
 
yeah yer right. .. i wuz jusrt thinking up some alternatives 
p.s.- if ppl want randomness, what about my 'rolling stats' idea? :->~  
 
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 07:41:32 +1000 
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Stats for small animals, pests, etc 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 04:17 AM 12/31/97 -0500, Kevin J. McClain wrote: 
>Roger A. Wesson, Jr. wrote: 
> 
>>   I am designing a NPC tenatively named Pest Control.  I want him to be 
>> able to 'call' various pests which will follow his commands.  I will be using 
>> Summon with a linked Mind Control for this, but I need to know how many 
>> points I'll need to put into Summon. 
>>   I envision PC being able to call forth swarms (1"-3" radius) of insects, packs of rats, bats, and maybe a handful of larger pests (feral dogs,etc).  Is there 
>> any published book with stats for such things?  Or can people make suggestions for what these animals' stats and cost would be. 
>> 
>> 
> 
>If you can find a copy of AC #24(Summer '94), Curtis Craddock has an excellant article on 
>building a swarm of anything. There are three examples, swarm of wasps at 
>250 pts, swarm of ants at 260 points, swarm of alien spores for 404 pts. There is an excellant 
>drawing of a swarm heroine(or villainess) on page 7. 
>Be sure to read the article on Kumite. It is completely unrelated to anything but it mentions 
>me and my character, White Spider, who was runner up at GenCon's 
> '93 Kumite Competition.Kev 
> 
> 
 
I actually have plans to draw up some giudelines to use 'angry mobs' in  
combat, to represent mind controlled normals, or just stupid ones. . .more later 
 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Magic Shapeshifting Potions 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 02 Jan 1998 17:54:17 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "SW" == Stirling Westrup <sti@CAM.ORG> writes: 
 
SW> No, actually he's also a player, running in the thursday night 
SW> campaign. Any job an NPC can have, a player can have. (Yes, even 
SW> Emperor or God.) 
 
Not when that job is a plot device. 
 
SW> And any technique you let an NPC use, you must let a player use, or 
SW> you, as GM are cheating. 
 
No, you as the GM are utilizing a plot device. 
 
The key to properly using plot devices is not to allow them to dominate the 
plot. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: Knockback Table 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 18:02:21 -0500 
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Here's a multi-use table for determining Knockback and throwing distances, which 
can also be used to judge other forms of damage.  (Note: the table's original 
format is in 10-point Courier New font.)  
 
 
                       KB and Throwing Table 
 
Extra BODY  Kinetic      Initial                              
 from KB    Energy       Velocity      Distance     Time      Extra STR 
  
    1          50 J        1 m/s          1"        2 sec         3 
    2         100 J      1.4 m/s          2"        2 sec         5  
    3         200 J        2 m/s          3"        2 sec         8 
    4         400 J        3 m/s          4"        2 sec        10 
    5         800 J        4 m/s          5"        2 sec        13 
    6        1.6 kJ        6 m/s          6"        2 sec        15  
    7        3.2 kJ        8 m/s          7"        2 sec        18 
    8        6.4 kJ       11 m/s          8"        2 sec        20 
    9       12.5 kJ       16 m/s         12"        2 sec        25 
   10         25 kJ       22 m/s         25"        3 sec        30 
   11         50 kJ       32 m/s         50"        5 sec        35 
   12        100 kJ       45 m/s        100"        7 sec        40 
   13        200 kJ       63 m/s        200"        9 sec        45  
   14        400 kJ       90 m/s        400"       13 sec        50  
   15        800 kJ      130 m/s       1.6 km      18 sec        55 
   16        1.6 mJ      180 m/s       3.2 km      25 sec        60 
   17        3.2 mJ      250 m/s       6.4 km      35 sec        65  
   18        6.4 mJ      360 m/s      12.5 km      50 sec        70 
   19       12.5 mJ      500 m/s        25 km      70 sec        75  
   20         25 mJ      700 m/s        50 km     1.6 min        80 
   21         50 mJ       1 km/s       100 km     2.3 min        85  
   22        100 mJ     1.4 km/s       200 km     3.3 min        90 
   23        200 mJ       2 km/s       400 km     4.7 min        95 
   24        400 mJ       3 km/s       800 km       7 min       100 
           
 
 
The second column gives the initial kinetic energy in joules of the knocked-back 
character.  The third column gives the initial velocity of that 100-kg character. 
 This velocity figure can also be used to determine vehicle damage, not unlike 
the vehicle damage tables from Champions III.  If you know the vehicle's 
velocity, you can read the "Extra BODY" as the damage dice for that velocity.  
For every doubling of the vehicle's mass above 100 kg, add another +1d6 damage.  
So an 800-kg coupe traveling at 32 m/sec (115 kph or 72 mph) does 11d6 + 3d6 = 
14d6 damage. 
 
Under the Distance column, true projectile motion for a 100-kg mass doesn't 
really come into play until about 9 Extra BODY.  From 1-8 Extra BODY, KB distance 
is more a matter of the character being sent staggering or stumbling back from 
the energy of the blow than flying back in a lovely parabola.  The projectile 
motion distances at 9 Extra BODY and higher are ideal figures--a launching angle 
of 45 degrees with no air drag effect.  This distance equals v^2/g.  As a simple 
method to take into account a less-than ideal launching angle and the drag force 
that reduce distance, step down in the table by 1 or 2 Extra BODY, depending on 
how non-aerodynamic the projectile is. 
 
Once you get into very high initial velocities, distances become meaningless.  
Escape velocity, discounting air resistance, is 11 km/sec.  To the Moon, Alice. 
 
The Time column shows about how long it takes the character to finally land or 
stop for an ideal KB distance.  These numbers come from the formula (2*v*sinA)/g, 
where A is the launching angle, assumed to be 45 degrees.  For example, a 14 
Extra BODY KB takes (2*90*0.7)/10 = 13 seconds.  These numbers show that a 
knocked back or thrown character often has plenty of time to do something about 
his predicament.  A character KO'ed by the initial blow might actually regain 
consciousness before he finally lands. 
 
The final column plugs in a simple way to figure out throwing distances.  The 
Extra STR number reflects an all-out throw of a balanced, aerodynamic object.  An 
all-out throw can be a running throw, the spinning throw of a shot put or discus, 
or a baseball pitcher's full windup.  A character performing an all-out throw is 
-3 DCV because of the concentrated effort of the throw, not unlike a Haymaker.  
If the throw is merely a standing throw, subtract 5 from Extra STR, but the 
character takes no DCV penalty.  For a prone throw, subtract 10 from Extra STR. 
 
If the object thrown is balanced but not aerodynamic, subtract 5 from Extra STR.  
If the object is neither balanced nor aerodynamic, subtract 10.  Of course, if 
you're going to ignore the effect of air drag for Knockback distances, you may as 
well ignore it for throwing distance, also. 
 
My personal, peculiar method for calculating throwing distance involves a table 
of "throwing factors" related to the character's STR stat, not an Extra STR 
number.  Divide the throwing factor by the object's mass, and you get the 
throwing distance.  A little more complicated, though not as bad as the throwing 
distance method in GURPS Supers, 2nd Edition. 
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 15:05:00 -0800 
Subject: KAs and the Stun Lotto 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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 t >  Yesterday, I thought up a new way to handle KA stun multiples.  It  
 t > keeps the Stun Lotto, but lessens it.  It also makes Increased Stun  
 t > Mult  
 t > both more and less effective.  
 t >  
 t >  Roll Bod as normal.  Roll the Stun Multiple Die, then compare it  
 t > to this chart:  
 t >  
 t >  1 -- 1*  
 t >  2 -- 2*  
 t >  3 -- 2*  
 t >  4 -- 3*  
 t >  5 -- 3*  
 t >  6 -- 4*  
 t >  
  
Not to disparage you - it is a good idea - but it's the 'Restricted  
Stun Multiple' - I first saw it at a DunDraCon in... I think it was  
'87.  
  
  
 t >  Notice that the upper and lower ends are brought in, and that most  
 t > results will now center to 2 and 3.  Notice that the average is  
 t > unchanged.  
 t >  
 t >  For a +1 Stun Mult, it becomes:  
 t >  
 t >  1 -- 2*  
 t >  2 -- 2*  
 t >  3 -- 3*  
 t >  4 -- 3*  
 t >  5 -- 4*  
 t >  6 -- 4*  
 t >  
 t >  Notice that we have lost the totally ineffecual blast.  Fitting,  
 t > as increased Stun Mult is supposed to represent a weapon with real  
 t > stopping power.  Notice, however, we still don't have the real upper  
 t > end.  
 t > Just an increased chance for the 4* multiplier.  
 t >  
  
OK, this is new.  I like it.  
  
 t >  At +2 Stun Mult, it becomes:  
 t >  
 t >  1 -- 2*  
 t >  2 -- 3*  
 t >  3 -- 3*  
 t >  4 -- 4* 
 
 t >  5 -- 4*  
 t >  6 -- 5*  
 t >  
 t >  Now it is really quite effective.  Most attacks will have the 3*  
 t > or 4*, and very little chace for a still effective 2*.  5* has  
 t > appeared as  
 t > well.  This is a +1 advantage, as well, making it maybe a little  
 t > ineffecive for the cost.  
 t >  
 t >  For each additional +, just keep going up in numbers, always using  
 t > two of each number.  
 t >  
 t >  One thing I'd propose is introducing "decreased Stun mult" as a  
 t > limitation.  Say at -1/2. 
 
 t >  
 t >  At the  -1 level:  
 t >  
 t >  1 -- 1*  
 t >  2 -- 1*  
 t >  3 -- 2*  
 t >  4 -- 2*  
 t >  5 -- 3*  
 t >  6 -- 3*  
 t >  
 t >  This really does have less real stopping power.  
 t >  
 t >  At the -2 level.  
 t >  
 t >  1 -- 1*  
 t >  2 -- 1*  
 t >  3 -- 1*  
 t >  4 -- 2*  
 t >  5 -- 2*  
 t >  6 -- 3*  
 t >  
 t >  And so on, adding 1's to the bottom.  I'd perhaps change the cost  
 t > to -1/4, or else a high BOD. low STUN KA gets too cheap.  The  
 t > "decreased  
 t > mult" is one of the possibly unbalancing parts of this power.  
 t >  
  
Well no Stun Mult is supposed to be a -1/2 (or was it 3/4?) ..  
  
 t >  What does everyone think?  I think I'm switching immediately,  
 t > myself.  I think this will give KAs a much better feel.  
 t >  
 t >  
 t >    -Tim Gilberg  
  
I used - or at least advocated, when I wasn't running - the Restricted  
Stun Multiple for a few years after I first heard of it.  This version  
looks even better because of the way you're adding Increased STNx -  
I'm not sure I understand the progression though... but it looks good.  :)  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 15:17:02 -0800 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 >  
 > >Likewise, EC saves you points only if you want a set of related  
 > powers.  
 >  
 >  Would any gm ALLOW a character whose powers WEREN'T related? I sure  
 >  wouldn't. The best balancing factor I've seen for EC's is the house  
  
Certainly, there's nothing wrong with a character say, being a mutant  
with one sort of power, having martial arts to beef up his combat  
abilities, and carrying some high-tech gizmos...   But, if he has  
an EC that his mutant powers are in, the powers from his high-tech  
gizmos won't be in the EC.  
  
 > >Multipower saves you lots of points while sacrificing relatively  
 > little  
 > utility >if you want a lot of different attack powers, etc...  
 >  
 >  Which is probably what led to the following in most of our HERO games  
 >  around here.  
 >  
 >  All my attack powers in a MP with u slots.  
 >  All my other powers (that are allowed) in an EC.  
 >  
  
Yep.  That's one of the reason I like the idea of stacking attacks  
into a single attack roll (see the Great Linked Debate) - because  
it gives you something for buying two or more attacks outside of  
power frameworks.  
  
 >  I'm not saying that there is anything WRONG with this as long as the  
 >  GM is reasonably harsh with EC Definitions - I'm not real big on such  
 >  loose ones as "EC-Racial Abilities" when your supposedly the last  
 >  survivor of your race...  
  
I'm fairly easy with ECs - without the EC bonus, heavily powers-based  
characters can end up not being competative.  
  
  
  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 09:35:04 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 03:19 PM 12/31/97 -0800, Sam Bell wrote: 
> 
>-> i'm not looking for a bell curve, and in fact a single dice  
>-> can't really have an average of probability anyway.  
> 
>"A single dice[sic] can't really have an average of probability anyway."??? 
> 
>What does "average of probability" mean? A single die certainly does have 
>an expected value. 
> 
>								-Sam 
> 
 
no, not in terms of genuine probability. it has an average value, but not  
and expected value. the average has nothing to do with the  
'odds of any given number occuring" as far as the single roll goes.  
 
 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:39:00 -0800 
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell) 
Subject: Probability 
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
-> From jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au Fri Jan  2 15:29:58 1998 
->  
-> At 03:19 PM 12/31/97 -0800, Sam Bell wrote: 
-> > 
-> >-> i'm not looking for a bell curve, and in fact a single dice  
-> >-> can't really have an average of probability anyway.  
-> > 
-> >"A single dice[sic] can't really have an average of probability anyway."??? 
-> > 
-> >What does "average of probability" mean? A single die certainly does have 
-> >an expected value. 
-> > 
->  
-> no, not in terms of genuine probability. it has an average value, but not  
-> and expected value. the average has nothing to do with the  
-> 'odds of any given number occuring" as far as the single roll goes.  
->  
 
 
I still can't figure you out. A single 6-sided die has an expected return 
value of 3.5. As the number of trials approaches positive infinity the average 
of the returned values will approach 3.5 (for any fair die). 
 
It is difficult to determine what you are asserting, and your non-standard 
grammar and lack of proofreading makes it even harder. 
 
Also, please tell me what 'average of probability' means to you. It doesn't 
mean anything to me. 
 
								-Sam 
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 15:46:04 -0800 
Subject: The STR & HA Worms 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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 g >  
 g > I can't help but notice that God, in his infinite wisdom, has placed a  
 g > number  
 g > larger than 3, but smaller than 5. This number also happens to match  
 g > the cost  
 g > of plain-vanilla extra DC as bought in Martial Arts.  
  
Good Point, Martial Arts DC's should be 5pt each too!  
  
 g > Thus, I'm curious: why can't I remember any suggestions to raise HA's  
 g > cost to 4pt/die.  
  
Well, just for myself, I'm a Hero fanatic - it *should* be 5 Apts per  
die!  Maybe HA, as written is worth 3 or 4 points - to me that just  
means we need a better HA that would be worth the 5 Apts.  
  
We all know the one I'd prefer.  :)  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 15:53:06 -0800 
Subject: Lost breakable armor mai 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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 >  
 >    Someone send some rules he made for breakable focus, but I deleted  
 > accident. Could someone send it to me please ? 
 
 >    Or if there's a site with the log of this mailing list you can send  
 > the address and I can search for it.  
 >  
 >                 Thanks.  
 >  
  
If you're talking about mine they're part of my varaints file on  
Red October.  Go to  
  
http://www.october.com/  
  
then follow the links to the 'Red October Files Area' and  
'Hero Rules'  the file is VARIANTS.ZIP and you'll need pkzip  
or winzip to read it.  Someday, I'll submit an HTML version...  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 15:54:08 -0800 
Subject: New Advantage:Engulfing 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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 l >  
 l > This idea grew out of the thread on foci. An Engulfing (+1/2) attack  
 l > ignores hit location, instead 'hitting' the entire body, or at least  
 l > the body facing the attacker. Armor is averaged. Any external foci, or  
 l > under armor if the armor is penetrated, are considered to be 'hit' by  
 l > attack. (There are already rules for this in terms of falling damage, 
 
 l > IIRC, but no advantage to specifically model this type of attack. Or  
 l > forgetting something? Books are not handy...)  
  
Area Effect attacks work this way.  Take an AE:hex attack with a small  
limitation...  
  
 l >  
 l > If this idea is used, I'd recommend permitting the purchase of armor  
 l > force field with 'Only affects focus' (-1).  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 15:58:10 -0800 
Subject: Re: Supplement help [SF 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 l >  
 l > At 04:11 PM 12/29/97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:  
 l > ><< DunDraCon in February should have some Hero books in the Dealer 
 
 l > room  
 l > and in  
 l > >the Flea Market. >>  
 l > >  
 l > Dundracon==SF area gaming con? More info?  
  
DunDraCon is a very good con, the only one I still go to regularly.  
It's in San Ramon.  There's a link to the DunDraCon web page on  
the Hero Games site...  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 16:21:12 -0800 
Subject: Stats for small animals, 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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 u > From: "Roger A. Wesson, Jr." <uraeus@bunt.com>  
 u >  
 u >   I am designing a NPC tenatively named Pest Control.  I want him to  
 u > able to 'call' various pests which will follow his commands.  I will  
 u > Summon with a linked Mind Control for this, but I need to know how  
 u > points I'll need to put into Summon.  
  
I remember special rules for designing Swarms in an AC or Almanac,  
but I don't remember which one.  They were good rules, though...  
anybody else remember them?  
  
 u >   I envision PC being able to call forth swarms (1"-3" radius) of =  
 u > insects, packs of rats, bats, and maybe a handful of larger pests  
 u > dogs,etc).  Is there any published book with stats for such things?  Or  
 u > suggestions for what these animals' stats and cost would be.  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 16:30:14 -0800 
Subject: Punching People Into Orb 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 > From: Eric Burns <burns@usmcug.usm.maine.edu>  
 > Subject: Punching People Into Orbit  
 > I've been semi-following the thread on knockback, and it's got  
 > me thinking... even with a strength of 200, you can only knock  
 > someone back on the order of hundreds of feet.  Maybe another  
 > mechanic is called for.  I don't know if this has been suggested,  
 > but how about flight, usable against others with a several one  
 > minute charges to represent the poor victim being knocked so  
 > hard that he flies though the air for a full minute before he hits  
 > the ground.  You could have a linked, 0 Range EB to simulate the  
 > initial damage of the punch, and the damage of the landing would  
 > be the move-through from the flight as the victim is shoved into  
 > the ground.  You might need an "Uncontrolled" advantage on the  
 > flight.  What do you think, folks; good idea? bad idea? 
 
 > ---  
  
I don't generally like UAO (for one thing, what's the 'reasonably  
commong defense').  I'm not sure my take on it is a lot better:  
  
Double Knock Back  +1/4  
     This advantage doubles the distance a target is knocked  
back.  Base knock back is determined normally, then doubled.  The  
doubling affects only how far the target goes if his path is  
unobstructed:  the damage done to the victim is NOT increased by  
this advantage.  Double knock back can be bought as often as  
desired.  For each level of 2xKB, the victim remains in the air  
an extra segment.  
  
And, for extra KB that actually does extra damage:  
  
  
Extra Knock Back:                                        <NEW>  
     This power causes knock back without doing any damage to the  
target.  Each die of Extra Knock Back (XKB) costs 15 points and  
causes the target struck to fly back 1d6 inches, taking  
appropriate knock back damage.  By itself, this power simulates  
very few effects.  However, when linked to any attack that  
normally causes knock back, each die of XKB cancels one knock  
back die.  Additional dice of XKB add their totals to the knock  
back caused by the linked attack.  
     Extra Knock Back cost: 1d6" KB for 15 pts.  Minimum cost  
     10pts (1/2d6)  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 16:52:16 -0800 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 > From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>  
 > Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S  
 >  
 > 1) More to the point, the usefulness of figured CHAR doesn't magically  
 > disappear just because "I didn't want that".  A point is a point is a  
 > point  
 > (or at least, it should be if points are supposed to mean anything).  
  
Yep.  And a character with 60 pts of Stretching is as effective as  
a character with 60pts of TK...  
  
 > more accurate to say that "STR pays for itself, it just does so in the  
 > currency of high figured CHAR".  
 >  
  
Actually, it does, because you can't buy down more than 1 Figured  
Characteristic.  STR is a package deal.  An even more restricted one  
than EC (EC can have anything in it as long as the F/X are consistent)  
STR always gets you precisely the same thing).  And the point savings  
for STR and EC are similar.  
  
 > 2) HA simply doesn't belong with "all the other attack powers".  HA's  
 > purpose is not to make a normal damage attack, but to increase the  
 > normal  
 > damage attack you already HAVE (i.e. your Strike maneuvers).  
 > Adjusting the  
 > cost of HA doesn't fix a damn thing, except to further dramatize the  
 > cost-efficiency of STR (instead of 10 pts. being worth 19 Active  
 > Points,  
 > it's now worth 23).  
  
HA absolutely belongs as an attack power.  Mind you, not as it's  
written now - where all it ever does is increase your STR damage.  
Rather, an apropriate 5 Apt HA would fill in the normal-damage  
equivalent of HKA - with STR adding to the HA.  HA's that merely  
add to STR would be a special case of HA - one that does simple  
normal physical damage (as opposed to Energy, AP, etc..)  
 
 
The cost-effectiveness of STR is absolutely real.  It's just  
balanced in the context of the system as a whole...  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 16:57:18 -0800 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 >  
 > The problem being, one doesn't add STR to HA, one adds HA to STR, and  
 > is the way it needs to be (because STR is the basis of non-ranged  
 > damage combat).  STR is the fourth corner of the square, not HA (or,  
 > least, whatever "fourth corner" exists is hardcoded within STR).  
 > --  
  
And, how do I deliver a normal energy damage attack that my STR  
adds to...   You *can* do this with Killing Damage, why not  
Energy?  -  Because HA is the missing power, and STR doesn't  
fill the bill  (STR can't do energy damage, doesn't fit  
well in power frameworks - it's either disalowed or automatically  
gets no fig characteristics, and putting Advantages like AP or  
AE on STR can be problematical).  A version of HA that works  
like HKA - STR adds to it - would certainly be viable.  
  
The point of the 5Apt HA isn't just to make the Apts come out  
nice, but to create a viable HA power, that's worth the points,  
and balanced with other attack powers.  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 17:03:20 -0800 
Subject: Encumberance 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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 r > From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)  
 r > Subject: Encumberance  
 r >  
 r >  I would like for someone to tell me how they are doing their  
 r > encumberance rules as I really do not like this. TIA  
 r > ---  
  
One quick-and-dirty way of doing Encumbrance:  Characters can  
carry up to thier casual STR limit w/o undue Encumbrance.  Higher  
than that, and they count as carrying a Bulky focus.  (With  
wiggle-room in between for things like the very strong  
character carrying 50lbs of Feathers instead of 50lbs of  
Armor)  :)  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 17:15:22 -0800 
Subject: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Her 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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 l > From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>  
 l > Subject: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well  
 l >  
 l > a)Serial Form:This is the character who goes through a process of  
 l >  
  
Ugh... there really should be a Variable version of Multiform at  
some cost level... ether comprable to Variable Advantage or  
something.  Oviously writting up characters in the middle of  
the game would be absurd, but it would allow a character to  
have a goodly range of already-written-up forms, without  
paying huge points.  For the Serial-Form guy, this would also  
be Uncontrolled....  
  
 l > b)Slipperiness, or other movement-impairing powers (Drain running  
 l > doesn't  
 l > really cut it)  
 l >  
  
Drain is both to effective and not a close enough fit.  Some minor  
additions/clarifications to Change Environment are called for (though  
not as detailed as the AC article or some of the Net versions), just  
something generic and not overly potent.  
  
 l > c)Immunity/invulerability:I know this is a major 'stop sign' power,  
  
I've often seen a varaint '100% Damage Reduction' for 80/120 Apts.  
If used it should get a nice big stopsign and a recomendation that  
it always be aplied to a limited F/X.  
  
 l > d)Shapeshifting (see current thread), especially the high-powered  
 l > 
 
  
See Serial Form, above.  
  
 l > e)Small stunts:Super-speedsters cleaning their room in half a second.  
 l > (Cosmetic Transform) Stretching characters picking locks without  
 l > lockpicks.  
 l > Etc. A VPP is often too flexible, and buying every stunt can be  
 l > expensive.  
 l > Some form of 'power skill' system to stimulate these kind of one-time  
 l > 'gimmicks' might be handy.  
 l >  
  
I hate to say it, but something akin to the 'Use Power' Skill in  
Fuzion might be called for.  Also, you could say that this is covered  
by F/X.  I let players take a 'Fine Control' Advantage for such things.  
  
 l > f)Time control -- it's virtually impossible to 'stop time' in Hero,  
 l >  
  
Temporal X-D move to the Future - with the F/X of stopping time work  
very well for 'stop time' (you shouldn't be able to do anything to  
Time Stopped characters anyway).   Part of the definition should be  
that it sends the subjects forward to the point in time when the  
'time stop' is removed.  
  
 l > And a few minor points...  
 l >  
 l > Invisibility to a non-targetting sense ought to be a lot cheaper. A  
  
No really, any sense can be bought Targetting.  
  
 l > There should be a way to summon specific individuals. Sorcerors call  
 l > demons by name. The witches on 'Bewitched' could get Ben Franklin or  
 l > Lincoln. (Which brings up another point -- can you buy Summoning with  
 l > Transdimensional to Summon beings from different times?)  
  
I agree to an extent about the Demons... but it should never be used  
as an infinite-range Teleport UAO (no PCs or important NPCs should ever  
be summonable).  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 17:17:24 -0800 
Subject: Re[2]: The STR & HA Worm 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 > From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)  
 >  
 >      Rat wrote:  
 >  
 >      <With "my" version of HA, this is not the case.  It works "just  
 >      HKA, except the damage is "normal" instead of "killing".  This  
 >      HA the basis for non-ranged normal damage, keeping the cost (5  
 >      per DC) and usefulness in line with the powers for ranged normal  
 >      damage, non-ranged killing damage, and ranged killing damage.>  
 >  
 >      So with "your" version, if I have a 30 STR and a 2D6 HA (a billy  
 >      club), I can only do 4D6 damage when using it, as opposed to the  
 >      standard 8D6? Are they limited to double the DCs using STR, like  
 >      HKA  
 >      are?  
 >  
 >      Richard  
 > ---  
  
I'm sure Rat has something similar to my write-up in mind.  In that  
case, simple normal, physical damage HAs add to STR, while any HA  
that 'transforms' STR damage (ie Energy, AP, etc) is added to like  
HKA.  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 11:51:48 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Punching People Into Orbit 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:03 AM 1/1/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   This is a good optional chart for larger-than-life four-color games.  I 
>hope whoever is working on The Ultimate Brick gets ahold of it. 
>--- 
 
 
 
Well, if this wuz going that far, i'd just say use a specialised TK  
power 'only to add kb to X'. (X being a single type of attack) 
 
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
>   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
>Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
>   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
> 
> 
> 
 
X-Sender: mactyre@mail.aci.net 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 17:56:43 -0800 
From: Matthew Mactyre <mactyre@aci.net> 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:21 PM 1/1/98 -0800, you wrote: 
>Additionally, the Hero System is supposed to be universal. In a 
>superhero campaign, a hero being hit with a Light Antitank Weapon and 
>living may be acceptable, but it just doesn't cut it in a mercenaries 
>campaign. Live, maybe, but minimal and no damage results get downright 
>silly. 
 
Wilhelm the VIPER agent beads down on Joe the P.I. with his LAW rocket. 
Joe has been a real pain in the butt recently and Wilhelm isn't taking 
anymore chances with him.  He takes careful aim at Joe's head, fires, and 
hits.  The Law rocket does 4d6K AP +1 Stun Mod.  Average roll, 14 X 2 for 
the hit to the head equaling 28 points.  Joe with his 10 body is dead.  :-( 
 For special effect, the GM says that Joe's head got blown off. 
 
Realism is in the eye of the beholder.  I'm more interested in the 
cinematic nature of the game.  I've often said while GMing a game, "Well, 
that's how it was done in Terminator, or Remo Williams."  Hero is a 
universal gaming system. I've used it for Fanstasy, Super Heroes, Super 
Agents, Agents, and Space.  I've found it works will with many genres and 
really doesn't need to be tweaked.  Some of the low end rolls can lead to 
funny results, like my "Big Bird" example in an earlier post, but overall 
I'm very happy with the way damage classes work in the game, both normal 
and killing. 
 
Matthew 
Matthew Mactyre 
mcm@mactyre.net 
http://www.mactyre.net 
Join us on IRC Dalnet #gurpschat to discuss GURPS 
Join us on IRC Dalnet #herochat to discuss Hero games 
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 17:59:00 -0800 
Subject: Re: [HS5] Powers/Concept 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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 t > > >>Agreed. Summoning specific objects, too.  
 t > > >I always used Transform:Air to Whatever for that. If you want to  
 t > > >someone's foci, that's a bit game unbalancing...  
 t > >  
 t > > I've never liked air-to-gizmo. There's always a chance of a bad  
 t > roll. If  
 t > > I want to keep my gun in a pocket dimension and summon it when I  
 t > need  
 t > > it, I'd like to be able to do so.  
 t >  
 t >  
 t >  Then just buy the power you want the item to provide.  Don't ask  
 t > for a focus limitation, however.  
 t >  
 t >    -Tim Gilberg  
 t > ---  
  
Once it's out of the pocket dimension, it could, presumably be taken  
away, so the focus lim isn't completely eliminated - even if the  
character can always summon back a focus, he still has to use an 
 
action doing it (though, now you're talking a progressively smaller  
limitation).  One option is that it's simply a special effect.  
  
You could also use 'Internal Spaces' from the Incomplete rules to  
represent a pocket dimension.  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 18:15:02 -0800 
Subject: stun lotto/is it really 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 F > Am I the only one who doesn't think the Stun Lotto is bad?  To me, it  
 F > the excitement of the gaming experience because it brings with it a  
 F > *real* *fear* when those potentially high-rolling dice are being  
 F > your direction.  And that is *exactly* what a person looking down the  
 F > end of a Killing Attack *should* be feeling at that moment... *fear*!  
 F > it just hasn't come up that much in our game, but it simply hasn't  
 F > been a problem.  Comments?  
 F >  
 F > 'Lynx  
 F > ---  
  
  
Actually, the STNx makes a good bit of sense when KAs are being  
used against people with little or no resistant defense.  The  
kinds of attacks they model IRL are very unpredictable - a gun  
can inflict mortal injuries without KOing the victim, crease his 
 
skill and stun or KO him without doing too much BOD, or anything  
in between.  That's fine.  
  
The problem comes when you try to do the classic bullet-bouncing  
brick.  To bounce a reasonable 1 or 2d firearm (to the point that  
it won't do any meaningful STN to you) take 30 or 60 DEF (every  
once in a while the 2d KA can do 60 STN).  While stopping even  
a 6d EB every single time requires only 36, and making sure it'll  
never STN you only requires about 20 (and you'll rarely ever take  
any STN from it at all).  
  
You mentioned that a character staring down a the wrong side  
of a KA should feel fear.  Fine for an Heroic Game, they should  
be afraid of dying, that's what a KA is all about.  But should  
the mega-brick be afraid of the KA because it might *knock him  
out* even though there isn't a chance that it will so much as  
scratch him?  Isn't that more the province of normal or STN-only  
or NND attacks?  When the best choice to KO or STN a tough  
character is a Killing Attack, there's something wrong...  
 
 
Personally, I didn't eliminate the STN lotto per se - I just  
apply the STN multiplier to the BOD the target takes after  
defenses.  That way, KA's are aproprieately fearsome and  
unpredictable against normals, still very dangerous for low-  
to moderate Resistant DEF characters, and bullets still  
'ping' nicely off the really tough supers.  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: Re: Punching People into Orbit 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:20:26 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
On January 2, 1998, John and Ron Prins (jprins@interhop.net) wrote: 
 
(material snipped) 
 
LC>> Even assuming the body bounces and rolls farther on after it lands, 
there's no way Spiderman could do 14 BODY with a lucky punch, roll a 4 on his 
KB dice, and <<LC 
 
J&RP> IIRC, Spidey should have around 35 STR, but Spidey uses Martial Arts 
(his own special style, of course). That's 3D6 off the Knockback, 4D6 if you 
use the optional 'pull an extra dice off it' that I sugsted. In order for 
Spidey to punch a normal human 1 kilometer, he has to roll all 6's on his 
attack (1/279936 chance) and then roll all 1's on his KB reduction dice 
(1/1296 chance). Chances of this happening: one in 362,800,000. IOW, not 
likely to happen. <J&RP 
 
LC>> send Doc Octopus hurtling and bouncing 1 km down the street.  That kind 
of KB should be reserved for heavyweights like the Thing or Colossus. <<LC 
 
J&RP> Agreed, but by Marvel stats, they only cap out around 60-70 STR (or 
less!) <J&RP 
 
Oooh, you just scratched a sore spot.  The STR levels given in TOHOTMU for 
the heavyweights in the Marvel Universe are laughable.  Examples of the 
heavyweights routinely exceeding these pathetic strength limits of 50-100 
tons are many and numerous, be it lifting, throwing, or damage energy 
produced by their mighty sinews.  (Of course, it is a bit much to expect 
consistency and a minimum level of scientific literacy from all the hundreds 
of writers and artists Marvel has employed over the decades.)  And there are 
helicopters that can lift more than 60 tons, dump trucks that can carry more 
than 300 tons, cranes that can lift more than 5,000 tons.. . .  What machines 
produced by mere 20th Century technology can do, our beloved superheroes 
should well surpass.  Give the big guys some credit. 
 
(more stuff snipped) 
 
LC>> 2) Air resistance will reduce KB distances considerably, though this is 
much more difficult to calculate--so many variables. <<LC 
 
J&RP> Geez, don't even bother with air resistance. We're talking about people 
being punched for kilometers, and you want to interject air resistance?? :-) 
<J&RP 
 
Okay, so I get a woody crunching numbers.  I'm seeking help. 
 
(yet more snipped) 
 
LC>> Consider the following:  Maybe Hero Games should bring in Bill Nye the 
Science Guy as a consultant on the 5th edition rules. <<LC 
 
J&RP> Aaaagh! Not Bill Nye! Anyone but Bill Nye! <J&RP 
 
Hey, I said "Bill Nye," not Barney. 
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 18:28:04 -0800 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it rea 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 a > Stainless Steel Rat writes:  
 a >  
 a > > For all the complaints about the Stun lotto, it actually does  
 a > > mirror they way that "real" killing damage works.  To wit, gunshot  
 a >  
 a > Well, if the stun multiplier were applied _after_ defenses  
 a > that would be true.  
 a > However, a bullet hitting a bulletproof vest (and not going through)  
 a > is not  
 a > particularly more random than being whacked by a guy with a club.  
 a > ---  
  
After defenses is exactly the way I like to run it.  But your  
post set off another idea.  
  
What if we went back to fixed-cost Damage Resistance, like existed  
in the 1st Ed.  Not just instead of the current DR, but instead of  
Armor and FF as well.  Only this time, DR determines how an attack  
is rolled against you.  If you have it, all attacks are rolled as  
if Normal.  If you don't KA's get to be rolled the standard way.  
  
Just a random thought....  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 18:35:06 -0800 
Subject: Re: KAs and the Stun Lot 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 t > >  
 t > > Definitely better, but I hate the idea of charts...  
 t >  
 t >  
 t >  It's easier than the Hit Location chart, which I'm trying to  
 t > avoid.  And I think it's simple enough that it'd be second nature in a  
 t > few  
 t > game sessions.  
 t >  
 t >  
 t >     -Tim Gilberg  
 t > ---  
  
  
You can also get dice that you can mark yourself and just  
put on:  1,2,2,3,3,4.  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 18:37:08 -0800 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it rea 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 t > From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>  
 t >  
 t > > > The Stun lotto goes a long way to simulating that wide range of  
 t > effect.  
 t > >  
 t > > Well, if the stun multiplier were applied _after_  
 t > > defenses that would be true.  
 t > > However, a bullet hitting a bulletproof vest (and not going through)  
 t > is not  
 t > > particularly more random than being whacked by a guy with a club.  
 t >  
 t >  However, applying the multiple after defenses would result in no  
 t > stun in this case.  Definately not true to form where being a KO is  
 t > quite  
 t > possible,  
 t >  
 t >    -Tim Gilberg  
 t > ---  
  
As you probably know, a modern bulletproof vest will often stop the  
bullet from penetrating, but still allow you to get some awful bruising  
and probably even a broken rib or something.  So, BOD damage is involved -  
and the energy in a pistol round and a solid punch are comprable...  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <szwells@mailbox.ucdavis.edu> 
From: "Steven Wells" <slwells@ucdavis.edu> 
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 10:40:15 +0800 
Subject: Re: Fantasy Magic - Skill Rolls 
Reply-to: slwells@ucdavis.edu 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Priority: normal 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> Today's topic: Fantasy Magic 
 
A fine topic choice.  Let's begin. 
 
> 1) I want Secular magic and Religious magic to have a different flavour, 
   
> 2)  I am not sure I want to have the Skill roll limitation on religious 
> magic.   
  
> 3) I have a problem with an archmage capable of destroying a castle with a 
> single spell, still fumbling a simple light spell. 
 
> 4) I like the flexibility of the hero system, and don't plan on 
> restricting characters to one college or school of magic 
 
> 5) Finally, What about skill rolls on linked powers. 
 
These are all in a sense, answered by having  both secular and  
religious magic represented by VPP's with subtle differences.  This  
worked well in my last FH campaign. 
 
The mage was limited by an END reserve attached to the pool with a 
campaign limit on initial size that could expand with experience.  
They had a skill roll for each "school" of magic they wanted to cast 
(i.e. fire, necro, etc.).  They had to research each spell using 
this skill and purchase a KS with the new spell on a successful  
"school" roll.  A penalty based on the pool's size was assessed  
against the "school" roll -- I think it was 30 active points possible  
meant a -6 to the learning roll which could be modified with time,  
research materials and teacher.  This limited the number of spells  
available and made spells easier to cast with experience while  
allowing new spells to be easy to obtain.  I required that spells be  
developed gradually -- 1 point familiarity at first, then more added  
over time. 
 
As for the fumbling of a simple spell, the more rote a routine  
becomes, the greater your chance of cutting corners or being  
careless.  I think it balances in the end.  The only surefire fail is  
an 18 and nobody is perfect.  The mage will just have to slow down  
and take a few time bonuses if he wants to ensure his burning finger  
spell works when lighting his associates pipe (gracefully stalling  
with chitchat about nether regions and orcish hordes, of course). 
 
The priests had a "devout" disadvantage as you mentioned yours will. 
END was drawn from their personal reserve or the power was bought to 
zero END.  The priest players could pray for anything they wanted, 
but it had to be appropriate to their god(s) sphere of influence -- 
they could pray to others within their pantheon, but not too often 
as it could tick off their primary deity -- and it could not be 
specific. Praying that lightning striketh the third orc from the 
left squarely upon his brow was generally verboten. However, I did 
let them know that they could learn certain specific prayers as time 
went on as part of their teaching.  Some examples of theoretically 
sure-fire prayers were healing, cure disease, retributive strike 
against undead.  All other spells were less specific and were 
created on the fly by myself as "acts of god" if you will.  The 
player often didn't even know that s/he had created a "miracle" -- a 
circle of protection at night, fortuitous accidents, lowered combat 
abilities for foes, "knowing" that the door they are searching for 
is nearby, etc. -- they just knew they were happily fatigued at the 
end of the crisis and gave thanks to their gods for watching over 
them. 
 
For me, the mage magic was pretty structured and straight forward.  
It was standard fantasy fare and I could let the players create to 
their hearts content within that concept. 
 
The priest magic was new for me.  I'd gotten the ideas from one of 
the Hero-based mailing lists and it struck me as an elegant solution 
solution to the AD&D "priest = mage with armor and real weapons" 
problem -- the more devout you are, the more likely your prayers 
will be answered and the more powerful their results. 
 
 
 
-- Steven Wells 
-- slwells@ucdavis.edu 
-- Team OS/2 
-- ICQ #5818355 
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 18:42:10 -0800 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it rea 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Whoah!  I like this one.  :)   The only objection I see  
is rolling lotsa dice a second time when you do significant  
BOD.  
  
  
 t > That's exactly the "logic" I used when creating my variant KA system.  
 t > Unfortunately, it's a little complicated (but a lot less complicated  
 t > than the original version I thought up...):  
 t >  
 t >  
 t >                             Simple version:  
 t >  
 t > For each pip of BODY that gets past defenses, KAs do 1d6 of STUN, no  
 t > defense.  
 t >  
 t >     Example: an Empire Saboteur shoots Our Hero while he's out of  
 t >              his armor, rolling 8 BODY on 2d6K.  Our Hero takes 8d6  
 t >              STUN from systemic shock.  As he raises his tiny (6 PD)  
 t >              emergency force field, he takes another 8 BODY shot, for  
 t >              which he only takes 2d6 additional STUN.  A third shot of  
 t >              5 BODY bounces completely off of his force field.  
 t >  
 t >  
 t >                          Slightly more complex:  
 t >  
 t > Additionally, KAs have "impact" STUN of 2x BODY.  +STUNx adds to this  
 t > constant 'x2' STUN multiple, and extra STR/Maneuver DCs (beyond those  
 t > used to double a KA's base damage) can also be added to the impact  
 t > total.  
 t >  
 t >     Example: as above, but Our Hero takes an additional 8 STUN from  
 t > the  
 t >              first KA's impact (he has 8 PD).  The second shot does  
 t >              16 - (6+8) = 2 STUN.  
 t >  
 t >     Example: Ogre picks up a knife (1d6 HKA), puts the tip up against  
 t >              Foxbat's chest, and punches it.  He can only use 15 of  
 t > his  
 t >              60 STR to increase killing damage, so he rolls 2d6K, and  
 t >              counts those dice twice in an effectively-13d6 normal  
 t >              attack.  Then he uses the result of those 2d6 again, as  
 t >              described above (1d6 STUN per BODY that penetrates).  
 t >  
  
OK, you lost me there towards the end... hwo does extra STR add  
to Impact??  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 18:56:12 -0800 
Subject: Complex Telekinesis 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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 f >  
 f > While I can almost get all of it, how does one simulate the ability to  
 f > keep hundreds of small objects in the air at the same time, not flying  
 f > as a group? If this is "fine manipulation", then what do you call  
 f > things that can be done by immaterial hands? If this is "Change  
 f > Environment", then how can you do it with fairly large, damaging  
 f > objects, like bowling balls or people? How much difference does it  
 f > make if they don't fly in similar patterns?  
 f >  
 f > Filksinger  
 f > ---  
  
I think this would fall under 'Fine Manipulation' and general  
F/X.  If you think about it, it's rather like juggling or  
having extra limbs, both of which are inexpensive abilities....  
  
  
I added an extra level of this in the form of a 'Fine Control'  
Advantage that could be applied to any power.  For TK it  
would let you do things like you mentioned....  
  
  
Fine Control +1/4 or +1/2                                   <NEW>  
     A power with Fine Control can be used like a tool.  Attacks  
can be used to carve or shape objects, energy attacks could be  
used to weld metals, and so forth.  Fine control Flight could be  
used for sky writing, and so forth.  Doing such tricks in combat  
usually requires a dex roll.  If the effect is directed against a  
character (like Zorro slicing a 'Z' in his opponent) a minimum -2  
is required to hit.  Complex uses may require the character to  
have an appropriate professional skill as well.  
     For a +1/2 advantage, the character can perform truly  
bizarre feats with his power that can have meaningful effects in  
combat.  Things like blasting a gun with an EB and only  
destroying the powder in the bullets or cutting through a gas  
tank with a fire blast without igniting the gasoline.  Such an  
attack could also be used to attack a villain using a normal as a  
shield with no chance of hitting the normal.  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58 
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 19:01:14 -0800 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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 f > A number of posts have referred to the undesirability of the "STUN  
 f > lotto". While I think the STUN lotto has some utility (fatal stab  
 f > wounds and bullet holes often don't even hurt, at first, especially if  
 f > the target is hopped up on adrenaline), it is generally disliked and  
 f > inconvenient.  
 f >  
 f > The thing I noticed was that just about everyone seems to like the  
 f > "BODY lotto". Given a normal attack and a killing attack, the BODY  
 f > done varies more for the killing attack, by a considerable amount.  
 f > This allows for the all too common effect of shooting a normal with a  
 f > .50 cal machine gun, or even a LAW rocket, and having them live,  
 f > sometimes only moderately injured.  
 f >  
  
Well in the case of the MG this does happen.  Guns aren't exactly  
unerringly lethal...  There were guys in WWII who caught up to half  
a dozen machine gun bullets and kept going - and even lived after  
recieving plenty of medical attention...  That's remotely possible  
with 3d RKA machineguns...  
  
 f > Why is it that people like this effect? Personally, I'd rather roll  
 f > Killing Attacks with the same dice as Normal Attacks, and simply total  
 f > them up normally. Then, call it killing damage, and continue on, using  
 f > the results the same as always. A variation of this can be found on  
 f > Digital Hero. This reduces the STUN lotto and the BODY lotto. 
 
 f >  
  
The point is that KAs and Normal attacks are supposed to be different.  
If you wanted guns that could kill people moderately often using that  
dice rolling convention, they'd have to do around 8d of damage, while  
a 2d KA has reasonable potential to kill...  The kinds of attacks that  
KA is designed to model are, indeed unpredictble, and the system  
works well... up to a point, that point being KAs vs high resistant  
defense characters.  :)  
  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 19:08:16 -0800 
Subject: Re: Using skills... 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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 f >  
 f > I want to be able to take "as long as it takes".  If I am willing to  
 f > donate a week, I should be able to quite early if it actually only  
 f > takes a hour. Additionally, if I am willing to donate a week, and I  
 f > fail, it shouldn't necessarily take a week to discover this. If I say,  
 f > "I am going to spend a week saving this person," does that guarantee  
 f > that he lives a week, or does it mean that I keep trying after he is  
 f > dead?  
 f >  
 f > Filksinger  
  
Heheheheh!  
  
Good point.  Maybe the GM should set a 'typical' time to accomplish  
the task - that's how long it takes if you make your roll exactly -  
then, for each 2 over/under what you needed, it takes you up/down  
the timechart one step.  
  
Obviously, the player has to decide at what point he's going to give  
up...  
  
Thus if the GM decides "it's not a simple lock, it'll take about  
a minute to pick"  and you make your roll by 4, you do it in a full  
phase, if you miss by two it takes you an hour (if you keep trying  
that long).  
  
  
That's how Scotty keeps his reputation as a miracle  
worker.  :)  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 19:14:18 -0800 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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 q >  
 q > >BTW, for those who like the possibility of rolling _high_ on killing  
 q > >attacks, I refer them to the critical hit rules (if only I could find  
 q > >them).  
 q >  
 q > If you roll half or less the number needed to hit, or a 3 in any case,  
 q > yo get maximum damage.  
 q >  
 q > EG Megaman needs a 12- to hit Dr Duck, so needs a 6- to score a  
 q > critical with his 20d6 HA.  
 q >  
 q > He rolls a 5 so does 120 Stun and 40 Body.  
 q > qts  
 q > ---  
  
  
I used that Critical Hit rule in one game.  One player brought in  
a character with a high OCV and an Autofire, No Range Mod attack.  
  
I have never used that rule again...  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 19:20:20 -0800 
Subject: You can't hit me! 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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 >  
 > Please let me know of some other ways to simulate this "Karma" power.  
 > know Icould of  bought her DCV levels but the ability I was looking  
 > work when the character wasn't even thinking about it.  
 >  
 > Kev  
 > ---  
  
DCV level work fine.  Tack the 'Persistent' advantage onto them. :)  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 19:33:22 -0800 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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 > From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>  
 > Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms  
 > F> an official rule. I am adamantly opposed to changing the cost of  
 > F> STR. I'll play Fuzion first.  
 >  
 > The only reason to keep the cost of Strength as is, is legacy.  That  
 > is why  
 > it was not changed in the fourth edition, and that is why the costs of  
 > other powers were not adjusted.  If this hypothetical 5th edition is  
 > supposed to be "Hero done right", then the cost should be changed to  
 > reflect its usefulness.  
 > ---  
  
Well the 5th Edition is supposed to be "Hero cleaned up a little but  
basicly compatible with 4th Ed, because we still have a lot of old  
4th Ed stuff to sell..."  
  
That aside, STR is balanced at it's current cost.  The only thing  
I'd suggest for reigning it in a bit, would be to reduce the sheer  
power of the Haymaker.  
  
Sure, it doesn't *seem* balanced if you compare it to EB or a  
hypothetical 5Apt HA, but that's because it's not a power... it's  
a characteristic, and one that's effectively bundled with other  
characteristics.  Compare the point saving you get with STR to  
those you get with EC.  Then compare the potential range of what  
you can get with a STR based character vs an EC based one.  
  
Increasing the cost of STR will literally break the system ...  
unless you throw at power frameworks too... oh, and you'll probably  
want to change the way figured characteristics work... and as  
long as you're changing the cost for STR why not unify the  
characteristics a bit.... oh, wait, that's Fuzion.  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 19:46:24 -0800 
Subject: [5th ed] Wishlist part 1 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 > From: Eric Burns <burns@usmcug.usm.maine.edu>  
 > -=-  
 > A "Density Reduction" power is needed.  2pts per 1/2x mass, maybe? 
 
 > Shrinking with the "Mass Reduction Only" limitation is an ugly  
 > kludge and should not be necessary.  
 > -=-  
  
I have yet to hear how this is worth any points - what does it let  
you do, that wouldn't be covered better by an extant Power?  
  
 > -=- 
 
 > You need to add a Touch sense group.  
 > -=-  
  
IMHO, a Touch sense group would be problematical... how does it  
relate to taking Stun damage for instance... what if you're using  
you 'Touch at Range' to examine something when the area is engulfed  
in flame?  
  
 > Force Wall is too expensive in it's current cost construction.  You  
 > should be able to buy the strength of the wall and the size of the  
 > wall seperately.  It's too inflexible to have the size of the wall  
 > directly dependant on the active points.  
 > -=-  
  
Letting Force Wall take the +1/4 'Double Area' advantage should  
cover it (should double the size of the FW along each Dimension...)  
  
 > A Life Support vs. Violent death (character will recover BODY at  
 > normal rate no matter how low it is) would help make a lot of  
  
Death is pretty easy to avoid in Hero....  
  
 > -=-  
 > Regeneration is far too cheap.  I like the suggestion that has been  
 > made to base regeneration on the time chart so that 10 pts of regen  
 > means that you get your REC in body back every week, 20 pts means  
 > every day and so forth.  Regeneration should also have an advantage  
 > to allow you to grow back limbs and lost body parts.  
  
I remember sugesting 5pts per step on the chart...  I even posted a  
complete write up...  
  
I don't remember ever seeing 10... that would get a bit too expensive.  
  
 > -=-  
 > There should be a "Slipping" power to cause people to fall over if  
 > move too fast.  This is one of the few powers that seem impossible to  
 > do under the current rules.  
 > -=-  
  
Hopefully, that can be covered under an improved Change Environment.  
  
 > Stretching is ridiculously expensive.  Try 2pts or 3pts per 1".  Also,  
 > it should be clearly stated that stretching allows you to stretch  
 > around walls and such to reach a hex (unless you take a limitation  
 > to restrict this).  
 > -=-  
  
Yeah, Stretching needs a lot of work.  Defining it a Movement power  
wouldn't hurt either.  
  
 > -=-  
 > Linked needs a much clearer description.  You need to be brave and  
 > take sides in the GLD!  This issue must be settled!  
 > ---  
  
Absolutely.  :)  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 19:48:26 -0800 
Subject: [5th ed] Wishlist part 2 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
To: Eric Burns <burns@usmcug.usm.maine.edu>  
 > -=-  
 > POWER FRAMEWORKS:  
 > -=-  
 > Make Elemental Control an optional rule.  Generally speaking, it only  
 > rewards players for doing what they should be doing anyway: building  
 > cohesive characters.  
 > -=-  
  
Whoa! Stop!  Think about this for a minute:  you know how people  
are always saying STR is over-priced?  That's because they haven't  
looked at EC.  Power Frameworks (esp EC) are needed to keep the  
game balanced.  You could do away with them in a total re-write  
(like Fuzion), but otherwise, it's a bad idea.  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 02 Jan 98 19:51:28 -0800 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>  
 a > Also, it might be nice adding an option to buy body for a force wall.  
 a > > -=-  
  
At that point, you're getting into the highly under-utilized realm  
of using Entangles to create barriers.  :)  
  
  
 a > > -=-  
 a > > Invisible Power Effects should be cheaper, at least for non-attack  
 a > > powers.  
 a > The cost of IPE is kind of bugged for powers which only affect the  
 a > user.  
 a > ---  
  
Hmmm... I think I know what you mean.  F/X seem to make some personal 
 
powers invisible for free...  Take FF it's normally visible, but is  
DR or Armor?  What's the effect if IPE Flight?  I think there should  
be a much lower advantage (maybe a 'Deceptive F/X') for such things...  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 23:38:54 -0500 
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net 
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood 
Subject: Re: Stats for small animals, 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
Opal wrote: 
 
>  u > From: "Roger A. Wesson, Jr." <uraeus@bunt.com> 
>  u > 
>  u >   I am designing a NPC tenatively named Pest Control.  I want him to 
>  u > able to 'call' various pests which will follow his commands.  I will 
>  u > Summon with a linked Mind Control for this, but I need to know how 
>  u > points I'll need to put into Summon. 
> 
> I remember special rules for designing Swarms in an AC or Almanac, 
> but I don't remember which one.  They were good rules, though... 
> anybody else remember them? 
 
As previously mentioned it was AC 24 (Summer '94) and to save Mark from having 
to repost his response GRG has AC 24 for $5.00.  And dont forget to read about 
the White Spider in the Kumite article!!! 
Kev 
 
 
 
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 23:53:14 -0500 
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net 
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood 
Subject: What are Incomplete Rules? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Pardon my ignorance but I have seen several references to "Incomplete 
Rules" here on the list and wondered what/where are these rules? 
 
Kev 
 
 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Cc: <champ-l@omg.org> 
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:07:26 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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On Friday, January 02, 1998 6:54 AM, Theala Sildorian wrote: 
 
 
> On Thursday, January 01, 1998 7:50 AM, Amy G. Crittenden wrote: 
> First, Absorption doesn't stop the damage, so he is in trouble from 
> the beginning. Obviously, he has to use his VPP to create defenses 
> right from the start. 
 
<<Which kinda negates the point of Absorption, IMHO, at least in 
this instance, since the character is trying to turn himself 
into some sort of cosmic battery. >> 
 
That may not be the purpose of Absorption, but it can be used in this 
fashion. 
 
> 
> However, I haven't found the official 4th Ed rule concerning 
> household current. The last one I saw was in 3rd Ed., and it was 
> only Normal damage if you weren't well grounded. 
> 
> Of course, holding both wires probably counts as well grounded. He 
> would need to ground one wire, and attach the other to his head. 
 
<<I would rule he's well grounded.  The 4th ed rule is on p 260 of the 
BBB.  I'd probably use the Heavy Household for your example, which 
even tho it's a 2d6 Killing attack, will hit the Stun Lottery 
eventually.  >> 
 
It would be Household plug, as that is what he is using. Furthermore, 
plugging himself into the wall may be a bad idea, but with minor 
variations it would work. Deliberately insulating himself would help. 
Additionally, he could get help from an electrician to build a device. 
Lastly, he could tape the wire to his hand and use hit locations, 
thereby foiling the STUN lotto. (BTW, I have pretty much decided that 
in my campaign all damage will be rolled the same way, as normal 
attacks. Not relevant in a by-the-book example, of course.) 
 
> 
> Of course, the official rule now might be that household current is 
> killing damage, which is one more rule I would have to ditch. Many 
> people, including myself, have had household current going through 
> them, with minimal damage. It may kill if you get it through you 
> long enough, but it doesn't qualify as a killing attack. Maybe a 
> normal attack with a linked BODY Drain. 
 
<<Most people don't let household current go thru them for more than a 
split second.  Household current is very dangerous--it can literally 
stop your heartbeat in that split second.>> 
 
Absolutely correct. Also in that split second, it is possible to 
suffer no real damage whatsoever. A BODY Drain may be more 
appropriate, as the person will heal so rapidly, with no permanent 
damage. If it doesn't kill them, it is frequenly inconsequential. 
 
<<  People die from household 
electricity every year.  I would definately qualify it as a killing 
attack, from professional experience:  I'm a nurse, and I've seen 
these kinds of injuries first hand.  I used to work in a prison that 
housed Immigration detainees--one Hispanic immigrant was trying to 
use a paper clip to carry enuf current to melt some deoderant (melted 
deoderant turns quite hard, and can be shaped into jewelry) and 
zapped himself.  He developed a cardiac arrthymia, and we nearly had 
to give him a second jolt with a defibrillator to stop the bad heart 
beat.>> 
 
Yes, it certainly can kill. Of course, not everything which can kill 
is a killing attack. A baseball bat can kill, and that is a normal 
attack. So can a fist. 
 
I am _not_ putting down household current as a dangerous thing. It 
certainly is. Many people die of it every year, but many, many more 
take no appreciable damage. A killing attack is not precisely 
appropriate. 
 
<< Everytime you see them yell "Clear!" on some medical show, 
they're not kidding--those paddles are used to STOP the heartbeat, 
not restart it, and if anyone is touching the bed or patient, they 
get zapped too with 240-300 joules, and THEIR heart beat can stop! 
We just hope the heartbeat starts back up on it's own, and that it 
does so in a normal rhythm.>> 
 
 
True. Of course, the voltage is several times that of household 
current, but it is still a good point. 
 
I think the biggest problem here is that the real world and Hero are 
not perfectly in sync. I would be shocked if they were, but 
by-the-book, this can be done. 
 
> 
<snip> 
> 
 
> No, _one_. He Absorbs to his maximum Absorption, return rate, and 
> VPP simultaneously, and they build up _slowly_. By the end of the 
> week, the slowly collected points would be a VPP in the thousands. 
> At a point a minute increase in his VPP (assuming that was all that 
> was left after splitting the points, it would be higher), and only 
> charging for eight hours a day, he has a pool over 3000 pts. No hero 
> or villain I have ever created was in that range. Certainly Dr. D 
> wouldn't stand a chance. 
 
Absorption doesn't work that way.  The points you're absorbing into 
your VPP don't stay there permanently.  They stay there for the 
duration of his return rate.  And you can only max out at six points. 
"The maximum number of points that can be added to any Power or 
Characteristic is the maximum amount that can be rolled on the dice," 
p 58 BBB. 
 
"This maximum can be increased by 2 for every 1 Character Point 
spent," pg 58 BBB. This is one of the three things that the Absorption 
is supposed to feed, so it will increase as more power is sucked up. 
Therefore, while he might waste points, his ability to increase in 
power will grow and grow. 
 
<<So you can only add six points to your VPP, max, if you 
only have one die.>> 
 
Save that that maximum is explicitly increased by the Absorption. The 
more power you get, the greater the maximum gets. It grows to match 
the power coming in. Some points might be wasted as the incoming power 
exceeds that growth, but properly proportioning how the points are 
spent will solve this problem. 
 
<<Now, you could put up to six points in OTHER Powers or 
Characteristics:  in theory. Actually, you have to specify 
where the points go when you purchase the Power.  I allow a +2 
Advantage to allow the Absorbed points to go to any Power or 
Characteristic (I allow this for Transfer too, the player I talked 
about last time, Lifeforce, has his Transfer bought that way), but 
you're still limited to the max you can roll on your dice.  Dr. D 
would eat this guy for a light snack.  Sorry :(>> 
 
 
You missed the most important points. The maximum absorbed and the 
delay rate both grow as power is Absorbed. The Absorption feeds 
directly into the maximum. Therefore, as he gets more power, the 
amount of power he can have increases. There is no maximum to this, it 
grows indefinitely, limited only by the amount of current that can be 
absorbed per phase. 
 
Thus, you are incorrect-- his power continues to grow. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 00:20:35 -0500 
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net 
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood 
Subject: Re: Magic Shapeshifting Potions 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
Stirling Westrup wrote: 
 
> DF> let him buy Transform, liquid to magic potion. He is an npc after all... 
> 
> No, actually he's also a player, running in the thursday night campaign. Any 
> job an NPC can have, a player can have. (Yes, even Emperor or God.) And 
> any technique you let an NPC use, you must let a player use, or you, as GM are 
> cheating. I certainly wouldn't play in any game where the GM did that sort of 
> stunt, nor would I expect anyone to play in my game if I did it. 
 
An odd philosophy towards GMing IMO. But that is your choice. However you surely 
have to realize that NPC's are tools to achieve plot goals, both yours and the 
players. They by their nature usually are assigned roles unattainable by PCs. You 
can allow PCs to do what NPCs do but dont expect the PC to be able to pay for it 
within the limits of a normal campaign. 
 
In an old FH campaign I was intent on running an artificer. Much of my initial 
points went to items and skills for building items.( the old system had a create 
spell needed for every item you built) It was great to be able to crank out an 
item or two but ultimately I had to decide between my characters growth, and 
churning out magic items. I could not do both. The time to make items and the time 
to adventure never coincided and the points to build the items drained my 
experience. 
 
If points are not a concern for your players, then build the potions and the 
character however you like. If points matter just warn your player that he will 
little more than a potion factory. 
 
 
 
 
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 15:26:43 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Probability 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:39 PM 1/2/98 -0800, Sam Bell wrote: 
> 
>-> no, not in terms of genuine probability. it has an average value, but not  
>-> and expected value. the average has nothing to do with the  
>-> 'odds of any given number occuring" as far as the single roll goes.  
>->  
> 
> 
>I still can't figure you out. A single 6-sided die has an expected return 
>value of 3.5. As the number of trials approaches positive infinity the average 
>of the returned values will approach 3.5 (for any fair die). 
> 
 
but this has nothing to with the nominal concept in question. The sides of the  
dice are nominal data- that means they don't interact, they just are. Bearing this in mind, it's silly to suggest there a single side with higher odds of occuring than another given side. I't just a pointless average which has no bearing on this  
discussion.  
 
 
>It is difficult to determine what you are asserting, and your non-standard 
>grammar and lack of proofreading makes it even harder. 
> 
>Also, please tell me what 'average of probability' means to you. It doesn't 
>mean anything to me. 
> 
>								-Sam 
 
ppppfffftttt! :->~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Languages 
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 23:55:09 -0800 (PST) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>    On a similar topic, I would allow Literacy in any alphabet of syllabary 
> for 1 point, to cover *all* languages that use that alphabet or syllabary. 
> A pictoral written language like Chinese should be treated as a whole 
> separate language, with 2 points of similarity to the language(s) it's used 
> for. 
>    (Brian Wong or someone else can probably correct me if I'm off base 
> here, but my understanding is that the various Chinese languages, though 
> quite different in spoken form, use largely the same pictographis in their 
> written forms.) 
 
	Well, let me start by saying don't read too much into a name. :) 
I'm only 1/4 chinese and only know the few common words one is likely 
to pick up living in San Francisco. 
	I do however know about 20 or so chinese characters from having 
studied them when I learned Korean (which uses an alphabet system that in 
my opinion is so simple it should be a 0 pointer, it matches the languages 
sounds perfectly, and is often learned by the student before they can 
speak more than a few simple words). 
 
	Anyway, the chinese writing system to my knowledge is universal 
across those countries that use it with some minor variations. 
	Communist China has modified it somewhat to make it standard 
throughout the country. Japan and Taiwan have done the same. A few other 
places use it as well, though to a lesser degree. For instance Koreans only 
use it for newspapers, and this is changing in favor of their own, simpler 
alphabet (presently it only gets major use in names and titles both in 
newspaper, and in naming of children). 
 
	The character system was designed to be unlearnable by a non-scholor 
in ancient times. It has evolved with time and it's present form has so 
many links to the culture that knowing either chinese culture or chinese 
pictographs should be worth a familiarity in the other. 
	Several parts of the language which share links across asian 
countries do so due to the writing system. Such as one of Korea's two 
numbering systems, which sounds like the asian equivalent of what a 
Jamacain sounds like to a New Yorker. They basically they use 'misspronounced 
chinese', and up until recently wrote numbers using the chinese numerical 
system (which is still used in places trying to get a 'traditional' feel). 
 
	One example of a link to culture there is the almost universal asian 
fear of the number 4. Much like the west's view of the number 13. This is 
because the chinese character's for 4 and death are nigh identical. 
 
	My summation is that KS:Given asian culture 
or LS: given asian language 
should both give about 1 to 2 points familiarity with the pictographs. 
2 points for Chinese or Japanese, 1 for Korean. I couldn't say for 
other asian countries that might use the alphabet (I know there are more, but 
my knowledge of south-east asia is highly limited, as is my knowledge of 
west-asia.) 
 
	Similarly a LS: CHinese writing should give a 2 point bonus towards 
chinese culture, 1 to Korean or Japanese. And should give similar bonuses 
to the spoken languages. But only give this bonus to the language and 
culture under which one studies the pictographs. To the other groups it 
should give the bonus only AFTER at least one point is spent in them. 
 
	That at least, is how I would do it if I were to care enough to 
set up such a thing, or to go into such detail. 
 
	As for my background, I'm 1/4 Chinese, but born and bred in the USA. 
what I know of asia comes from living in San Francisco (a city which is 1/4 
asian, and gets most of it's tourists from asia) and spending 4 years 
in Korea. 
 
	So I know a lot about Korea, but have very limited knowledge of China. 
Now I have studied Japanese history and language to a lesser degree, and 
kept what I would call an 'armchair' familiarity with the 'Chinese world'. 
 
	But I'm no more inheritantly qualified here than is say a New Yorker 
named McDougal on Scottland. :) 
 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing 
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at 
some point. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Building the "psychic"... 
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 00:26:28 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Friday, January 02, 1998 5:50 AM, Leah L. Watts wrote: 
 
<snip> 
>Obviously not the best example I could have picked, so let's rephrase 
>without one -- if the "psychic" is going to give readings, he'll need 
>either a good knowledge of the method being used or basic knowledge 
(of 
>the what card goes where type) and a good roll in some sort of 
bull**** 
>skill to cover mistakes. 
> 
Sleight of hand and maybe Gambling in order to stack a deck would come 
in handy, as well. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 02:46:00 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist part 2 of 2 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Eric Burns wrote: 
>  
> Here is my list of suggestions for changes to everything but the 
> powers section for the 5th edition.  Sorry it's a bit long, but 
> I'm on winter break and have too much time on my hands. 
> -=- 
> SKILLS: 
> -=- 
> Consider making non-combat skills cheaper.  Skills like Acting, 
> Conversation, and Oratory should have a base cost of 2 and a +1 level 
> cost of 1.  The same should go for any skill that is not useful in 
> combat (like breakfall or acrobatics) or extremely versitile or useful 
> (like stealth or mechanics).  This will encourage players to create 
> more well-rounded characters.  You really need to emphasize the 
> importance of skills! 
 
   I think this is a good idea;  I always encourage my players to round 
out their characters' personalities through skills, but the cost can be 
slightly limiting.  OTOH, many 'colour' skills tend towards the 
KS/PS/'science' catagory, which are already 2/1. 
> -=- 
> PERKS: 
> -=- 
> "No Reluctance to Kill" should be a Fringe Benefit, since it gives 
> a character one hell of an advantage in a fight.  This would cost 
> 5pts and allow you to kill your enemies without hesitation.  A 
> stronger version "Completely Evil" would cost 10pts and allow you 
> to commit any evil act, no matter how vile, without even the smallest 
> bit of reluctance.  The cost could be offset with Psych Disads. 
 
   Ah, no.  A Character's personal feeling about killing has nothing 
whatsoever to do with Perks or Fringe Benifits.  Those would only apply 
if the character had some level of LEGAL SANCTION to lose control.  Just 
because a Hero character is - for example - completely evil, it doesn't 
mean that (s)he is allowed to act upon his/her desires withou 
consequence.  This goes no farther than the realm of Psych Lims and 
World-building decisions. 
 
> -=- 
> POWER FRAMEWORKS: 
> -=- 
> Make Elemental Control an optional rule.  Generally speaking, it only 
> rewards players for doing what they should be doing anyway: building 
> cohesive characters. 
 
   First of all, every power and rule in the book are 'optional' and 
subject to GM approval for any given game/gaming group.  But that aside, 
Elemental Control is a concept that has been a part of the game since 
its first printing.  It specifically is a mechanic to reflect a 
character with a natural wellspring of power as opposed to, say, a 
gadgeteer or Power Armour User.  A 'cohesive character' does not 
automatically mean that (s)he will have a common sfx for several major 
powers.   Batman is a 'cohesive character' but he certainly wouldn't get 
an EC, even for his utility belt. 
 
> -=- 
> DISADVANTAGES: 
> -=- 
> 150 pts of disadvantages is too much!  You either get blind, one-armed, 
> blue-skinned, berserk-prone, pet-owning  psychopaths on the run from 
> 3 seperate organizations or you get characters with frivolous 
> disadvantages (eg "seeker of eternal truth", "homesick", or 
> "hatred of lowlives and criminals").  Try 150 base pts + 100 pts 
> for disadvantages for the recommended default, and similar ratios 
> for higher power levels (the lower power levels have about the right 
> ratios). 
 
   This is entirely up to the consensus of a particular gaming group, or 
a GM call.  The BBB lists a number of different suggested Base/Disad 
levels, but clearly it is a personal decision as to where to set the 
levels.  Perhaps this should be more explicitly stated, but there really 
is no hard rule regarding where Base/Disads "have to" be a certain 
level, nor should there be. 
 
> -=- 
> The Reputation disadvantage should be worth less if the reputation is 
> positive. 
 
   Actually, this is already covered in the more general rule that a 
disadvantage's value is based on its level of disadvantageousness.  If a 
reputation is positive, and less limiting, then it is by definition 
worth less.  The example in the book is very illuiminating in this 
regard; a Knight with a reputation for Honor and Chivalry has a 
'positive' reputation, but can be exploited by enemies, thus is still 
valid as a disadvantage. 
 
> -=- 
> CHARACTER EXAMPLES 
> -=- 
> You should include examples of all of the very common super-hero 
> archtypes like the Speedster (eg Flash) and the Mentalist (eg 
> Psylocke) so beginning players can see how to build these.  Also, 
> explain the special effects and the rational of the powers chosen 
> so players can see why the character was built the way it was. 
> Most importantly, set a good example and make sure that all the 
> NPCs have a reasonable amount of skills and don't have any stupid, 
> excessive, or fivolous disadvantages.  The current character 
> examples in the BBB are horrible in this regard! 
 
   As far as examples go, I would definitely like to see the Major 
Archetypes displayed, as well as some unique, non-'standard' types to 
demonstrate the more unique powers, and alternate applications of 
standard ones. 
   Ideally, I would like to see - though this may be considered 
excessive, at least from a publishing standpoint - at least two clear 
examples for every power and talent application; one to show the basic, 
straightforward use, and one to show an alternative or unique 
apoplication of the mechanic.  This would help encourage use of the 
versatility of the system. 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 05:35:20 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: You can't hit me! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:58 AM 1/2/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Technically correct; combat skill levels must be allocated at the start of 
>every action phase.  However, nothing prevents a player from informing a GM 
>that under normal circumstances, his DCV-only CSLs are "on DCV" as they 
>cannot be used for anything other than that. 
 
This was rather what I had in mind when I said it.  Since 5 pt. DCV levels 
can't be used for anything else but, I'd tend to assume that they're always 
in effect. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 05:35:22 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist part 2 of 2 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:35 PM 1/2/98 -0500, Eric Burns wrote: 
>DISADVANTAGES: 
>-=- 
>150 pts of disadvantages is too much!  You either get blind, one-armed, 
>blue-skinned, berserk-prone, pet-owning  psychopaths on the run from  
>3 seperate organizations or you get characters with frivolous  
>disadvantages (eg "seeker of eternal truth", "homesick", or 
>"hatred of lowlives and criminals").  Try 150 base pts + 100 pts 
>for disadvantages for the recommended default, and similar ratios 
>for higher power levels (the lower power levels have about the right 
>ratios).  
 
You know, there's nothing in the rules requiring you to take the full 
disadvantage points.  I've run completely successful characters who started 
with 50-100 pts. of Disadvantages.  After all, since Disadvantages are 
presumed to be, well, disadvantageous, a character who doesn't take any has 
an edge worth roughly 150 pts. over his blind, one-armed, blue-skinned, 
psychopathic pals. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 05:35:27 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:46 PM 1/2/98 -0800, Opal wrote: 
?> I can't help but notice that God, in his infinite wisdom, has placed a  
?> number larger than 3, but smaller than 5. This number also happens to 
?> match the cost of plain-vanilla extra DC as bought in Martial Arts. 
>  
>Good Point, Martial Arts DC's should be 5pt each too!  
 
Wherefore? Martial Art "DC's" are really more extra STR with a limitation 
"Only apply to Martial Arts (-1/4)" (after all, they can be applied to 
non-damaging "exert" maneuvers).  They could only be considered to be worth 
5 pts each if one is in favor of bumping up the cost of STR, which I didn't 
think you were. 
  
> g > Thus, I'm curious: why can't I remember any suggestions to raise HA's  
> g > cost to 4pt/die.  
>  
>Well, just for myself, I'm a Hero fanatic - it *should* be 5 Apts per  
>die!  Maybe HA, as written is worth 3 or 4 points - to me that just  
>means we need a better HA that would be worth the 5 Apts.  
>We all know the one I'd prefer.  :)  
 
If you were a "HERO fanatic", wouldn't the one you prefer be the one we 
have? Seems to me you're a HERO revisionist. :/ 
 
Yes, we all know the one you'd prefer, but there's a word for that: "bias". 
The plain fact is, the system doesn't need your HA write-up to function, and 
your HA write-up has more than one unsightly burps (for one, there's no 
reason to assume that HAs ARE "somewhat separate from the character" -- what 
about superdense skin or superspeed punches?) which makes the current 
version actually preferable to it. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 05:35:30 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 04:52 PM 1/2/98 -0800, Opal wrote: 
>> From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>  
>> Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S  
>>  
>> 1) More to the point, the usefulness of figured CHAR doesn't magically  
>> disappear just because "I didn't want that".  A point is a point is a  
>> point (or at least, it should be if points are supposed to mean' 
>> anything).  
>  
>Yep.  And a character with 60 pts of Stretching is as effective as  
>a character with 60pts of TK...  
 
If you've read my posts, you'd know I'm vehemently in favor of cheapening 
Stretching, for the exact same reason: points should be reasonably 
consistent.  You're just using one demonstrably broken bit to defend another 
demonstrably broken bit. 
  
> > more accurate to say that "STR pays for itself, it just does so in the  
> > currency of high figured CHAR".  
>  
>Actually, it does, because you can't buy down more than 1 Figured  
>Characteristic.  STR is a package deal.  An even more restricted one  
>than EC (EC can have anything in it as long as the F/X are consistent)  
>STR always gets you precisely the same thing).  And the point savings  
>for STR and EC are similar.  
 
Of course, STR is even BETTER than an Elemental Control: 
        [1]        1 pt. EC: Strength-Like Abilities 
        [1]        a) +2 PD 
        [3]        b) +2 REC 
        [4]        c) +5 STUN 
        [1]        d) +2" Superleap 
        [5]        e) +2d6 HA 
Total Cost= 15 pts. 
 
Real STR to give you all this costs only 10 points, AND includes the ability 
to lift things, throw things, resist knockback, etc.  And remember, EC is 
*already* a pure point crock (i.e. "points for nothing"), which is why many 
players I've read want to either chuck it entirely or adapt it to allow 
Adjustment Powers to attack the reserve (even Aaron Allston, one of the 
Great HERO Minds(tm), favors the latter). 
 
And I don't know how many times I can say this: whether you wanted it or 
not, you still got (for example) the +5 STUN, making you harder to put down 
for the count. It's still 5 points worth of usefulness on your sheet. Points 
is points, or else we may as well just model characters arbitrarily. 
  
>HA absolutely belongs as an attack power.  Mind you, not as it's  
>written now - where all it ever does is increase your STR damage.  
>Rather, an apropriate 5 Apt HA would fill in the normal-damage  
>equivalent of HKA - with STR adding to the HA.  HA's that merely  
>add to STR would be a special case of HA - one that does simple  
>normal physical damage (as opposed to Energy, AP, etc..)  
 
The problem is that "HAs that merely add to STR" isn't a special case, it's 
the default, the most common application.  To me, the fact that you have to 
grandfather in the old system as an amazingly common "special case" to make 
your new writeup viable is a clue that there's something inherently wrong 
with the approach. 
 
A moment's thought will show, HA is already written the way it should be -- 
follow the logic here.  We'll postulate an imaginary power to fit the fourth 
corner of that attack square, a method of buying normal damage classes 
without range.  We'll call that power "Hand Blunt Attack (HBA)", and at this 
point not worry about what it might cost. 
 
Since every character has the capacity to do normal damage classes at no 
range without buying ANY powers, it's obvious that HBA must be like Running 
-- one gets free dice before spending any points just as one receives 6" 
free Running.  Furthermore, it's even closer to Superleap, in that one gets 
those free dice as a hidden "figured characteristic" -- 1d6 HBA per 5 STR. 
That means HBA is *already* integral to STR -- the idea of "adding STR" to 
HBA is meaningless, because STR *includes* HBA.  This isn't the same as STR 
increasing HKA, since in that case there's a conversion of damage classes; 
in this case, the dice you get "free" from STR would function identically to 
the dice you get from HBA. 
 
There are basically two reasons to desire a more independent HA power. The 
first is the ability to get no-ranged energy attacks; this is already 
covered by EB, No Range.  The second is due to the awkwardness of buying 
Advantages on HA; I see no reason why HA can not bear a similar restriction 
on Advantages relative to STR that Damage Resistance does to its own 
part-and-parcel partner characteristics PD & ED. 
 
As a friend of mine put it, the only thing a new HA writeup gives you that 
the system doesn't already provide is your name in the book. 
 
>The cost-effectiveness of STR is absolutely real.  It's just  
>balanced in the context of the system as a whole...  
 
The cost-effectiveness of STR is real.  The balance is not; it's an illusion 
created by mental inertia ("well, that's just the way it's always been 
done") and overemphasis on superheroic/comicbook genres (for example, the 
argument that "it's balanced against frameworks" goes right out the window 
in a fantasy campaign that typically doesn't USE frameworks of any kind). 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 05:35:36 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 04:57 PM 1/2/98 -0800, Opal wrote: 
> >  
> > The problem being, one doesn't add STR to HA, one adds HA to STR, and  
> > is the way it needs to be (because STR is the basis of non-ranged  
> > damage combat).  STR is the fourth corner of the square, not HA (or,  
> > least, whatever "fourth corner" exists is hardcoded within STR).  
> > --  
>  
>And, how do I deliver a normal energy damage attack that my STR  
>adds to... You *can* do this with Killing Damage, why not  
>Energy? -  Because HA is the missing power, and STR doesn't  
>fill the bill  (STR can't do energy damage, doesn't fit  
>well in power frameworks - it's either disalowed or automatically  
>gets no fig characteristics, and putting Advantages like AP or  
>AE on STR can be problematical).  A version of HA that works  
>like HKA - STR adds to it - would certainly be viable.  
 
To be frank, I don't think you should be able to do it with HKA -- as you 
say, "STR can't do energy damage", which I think is just plain common sense. 
Things like laser swords should be bought as RKA, No Range -- putting a ton 
of force behind an immaterial, non-physical phenomena shouldn't do squat, 
unless you're thinking in terms of something like an explosion -- linked 
physical (concussion wave) and energy (thermal pulse) attacks. 
 
>The point of the 5Apt HA isn't just to make the Apts come out  
>nice, but to create a viable HA power, that's worth the points,  
>and balanced with other attack powers.  
 
HA is already viable and worth its current point cost.  And (as I pointed 
out in a previous post) changing the way HA works either involves 
grandfathering in the current system or accepting the paradox of people 
spending points for literally nothing (which is just as ludicrous than 
getting something without spending points). 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 05:35:40 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist part 2 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:48 PM 1/2/98 -0800, Opal wrote: 
>Whoa! Stop!  Think about this for a minute:  you know how people  
>are always saying STR is over-priced?  That's because they haven't  
>looked at EC.  Power Frameworks (esp EC) are needed to keep the  
>game balanced.  You could do away with them in a total re-write  
>(like Fuzion), but otherwise, it's a bad idea.  
 
Wrong-o. This person who's said STR is over-priced HAS looked at EC, and 
also found it wanting.  Remember, Power Frameworks are ALREADY an optional 
rule (they only apply to superheroic campaigns, usually), so they're a 
pretty p*ss-poor way to keep the game balanced.  And at least Multipowers 
and VPPs have a functionality issue -- they can be considered very strange 
forms of "power limitations", insofar as they actually create a mechanical 
difference in the way you're allowed to use your Powers.  ECs are just a 
freebie point break. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 05:35:42 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:33 PM 1/2/98 -0800, Opal wrote: 
>Sure, it doesn't *seem* balanced if you compare it to EB or a  
>hypothetical 5Apt HA, but that's because it's not a power... it's  
>a characteristic, and one that's effectively bundled with other  
>characteristics.  Compare the point saving you get with STR to  
>those you get with EC.  Then compare the potential range of what  
>you can get with a STR based character vs an EC based one.  
 
1) ECs are pure point crocks that arguably in and of themselves abuse game 
balance, AND they're an option that does not apply to all campaigns; STR, as 
the first Characteristic on your sheet, is EVERYWHERE. ECs make a damn lousy 
defense for STR's cost. 
 
2) STR doesn't *seem* balanced because it mathematically contains more 
points worth of powers than its own cost, even *moreso* than an EC would. 
Or, in other words, because it's NOT balanced.  As John D. Barrow puts it, 
mathematics is the analogy that never breaks down; that's kinda why the vast 
majority of RPGs are based on it. :] 
  
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 04:07:16 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Magic Shapeshifting Potions 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>  
> >>>>> "SW" == Stirling Westrup <sti@CAM.ORG> writes: 
>  
> SW> No, actually he's also a player, running in the thursday night 
> SW> campaign. Any job an NPC can have, a player can have. (Yes, even 
> SW> Emperor or God.) 
>  
> Not when that job is a plot device. 
>  
> SW> And any technique you let an NPC use, you must let a player use, or 
> SW> you, as GM are cheating. 
>  
> No, you as the GM are utilizing a plot device. 
>  
> The key to properly using plot devices is not to allow them to dominate the 
> plot. 
 
   I gotta go with Stirling on this one.  Any power, mechanic, etc. I 
use on my NPCs I integrate into the rules and power structure of my game 
as a whole.  The difference is just one simple rule; PCs are generally 
limited in available points.  NPCs get to have 'Villian Bonuses' to make 
up large gaps between Disads and Char Cost.  PCs don't get that.  A new 
power or ability construct for an NPC which could be dangerous 
(campaign-wise) in a PC's hands most likely will be prohibitively 
expensive, since an NPC can always spend 180 points on a single effect 
in order to make sure that it is mechanically sound. 
 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 06:43:30 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Friday, January 02, 1998 5:53 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>   Based on this idea, how about this: 
>   Instead of multiplying original BODY to get STUN, multiply the 
amount of 
>BODY that actually gets through the defenses. 
>   Some small Advantage can be given for bullets and other attacks 
that 
>still do impact damage even if they don't penetrate armor. 
 
 
Try this. Roll damage for killing attacks as if they were normal 
attacks, 1d6 per DC. Now, subtract the target's resistant defense from 
the BODY of the killing attack. If the BODY gets through, then the 
target subtracts only resistant defenses from the STUN. If the BODY is 
stopped, then the target subtracts non-resistant defenses as well. 
 
This will help simulate the effect pretty well, I suspect. A more 
complex method would be to subtract the largest dice of damage from 
the attack as their BODY is used up. Then, the BODY that gets through 
does STUN without defenses, while the BODY that doesn't get through 
does STUN with all defenses, resistant or not. After all, there is no 
reason why the STUN  that corresponds to the BODY that gets through 
should be resisted at all, as it is primarily the shock of the BODY 
damage that creates the STUN. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Origin of "Does BODY" advantage 
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 06:58:21 -0800 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Friday, January 02, 1998 6:56 AM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
> 
>F> Close, but no cigar. The "Does BODY" Advantage dates back to a 3rd 
Ed. 
>F> book. I think it was Fantasy Hero, or possibly the original 
Bestiary. 
> 
>Nope, it first appeared in "Gadgets!" as an advantage for AVLD 
attacks.  It 
>was never intended to be used for NND attacks -- for that you should 
be 
>looking at Drain. 
 
 
You can't be serious. Weren't you the person who argued for some time 
that Drains can never kill, that instead we should use NNDs that do 
BODY? Now you are going to argue that we should use BODY Drains and 
not NNDs? 
 
I do not understand this one at all. Have you switched positions 
without telling everyone, or are NND killing attacks _and_ BODY Drains 
that kill both forbidden? Please tell me what I am missing. 
 
 
BTW, it was first officially spelled out in Gadgets!, but it was used 
previous to that book. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 07:07:30 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist part 2 of 2 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:35 PM 1/2/98 -0500, Eric Burns wrote: 
 
   Most of the stuff in part 1 has already been discussed adequately; 
however... 
 
>PERKS: 
>-=- 
>If a character is famous (as opposed to infamous) he/she should have  
>to buy the "famous" Fringe Benefit to reflect the special treatment 
>that he/she is likely to receive.  This would be offset by a 
>Public ID disadvantage.  The bottom line is that  there should be a  
>point difference between good famous (eg Gina Davis) and bad famous  
>(eg Charlie Manson). 
 
   Good idea. 
 
>"No Reluctance to Kill" should be a Fringe Benefit, since it gives 
>a character one hell of an advantage in a fight.  This would cost 
>5pts and allow you to kill your enemies without hesitation.  A 
>stronger version "Completely Evil" would cost 10pts and allow you 
>to commit any evil act, no matter how vile, without even the smallest 
>bit of reluctance.  The cost could be offset with Psych Disads. 
 
   Arguably good idea.  If nothing else, it represents the dynamic of the 
thing better than making it a Psych Limit.  (Put a Magnifying Glass on it.) 
 
>Contacts should be broadened to include groups of people, like the 
>New York Underworld or the FBI.  This would represent an information 
>network not dependant on a single person but on a number of people 
>out of whom you could bribe or cajole information.  This would cost 
>3/2 (not 2/1) since it is less fragile than a single person (you don't  
>have to worry abou Jimmie the Hat being killed in a drug deal gone bad 
>or whatever). 
 
   Very good idea. 
 
>TALENTS: 
>-=- 
>New talent: <environment> movement.  This would allow a character to 
>ignore penalties normally imposed on movement and actions in a strange 
>environment.  This talent has to be bought seperately for each 
>environment.  Examples include Underwater Movement and Zero-Gravity 
>Movement.  Someone who had one of these powers would ignore the normal 
>penalties to OCV, DCV, and skills imposed in that environment. 
 
   Good idea. 
 
>Add a bunch of new talents from the various supliments.  
 
   A given, I think. 
   Latent Mentalist (from TUM, but rendered moot with the last-minute 
change in Mental Combat Maneuvers) can be altered to allow a non-Mentalist 
character to use Defensive Mental Maneuvers. 
 
>POWER FRAMEWORKS: 
>-=- 
>Make Elemental Control an optional rule.  Generally speaking, it only 
>rewards players for doing what they should be doing anyway: building 
>cohesive characters. 
 
   Bad idea!  Bad, bad idea! 
   As someone else mentioned, ECs are a way to balance the point breaks 
Bricks get for STR, Martial Artists get for Martial Arts abilities, 
Battlesuit types get for having gobs of stuff in a Focus, Vehicle Operators 
get for a 5:1 point cost on their rigs, and so forth. 
   However, as a control measure for ECs, I implement a weakness as 
regarding Drains and Transfers.  When a Power in an EC is Drained, it is 
only drained independently until it has actually twice the number of points 
as the EC Pool (assuming it started with more than that).  After that, the 
Power and the Pool each lose half of whatever is Drained -- the latter 
meaning that all of the other Powers in the Pool are affected by that much. 
 When the Power is completely gone, so is the EC Pool, and the other Powers 
in the Pool are reduced accordingly. 
 
>DISADVANTAGES: 
>-=- 
>150 pts of disadvantages is too much!  You either get blind, one-armed, 
>blue-skinned, berserk-prone, pet-owning  psychopaths on the run from  
>3 seperate organizations or you get characters with frivolous  
>disadvantages (eg "seeker of eternal truth", "homesick", or 
>"hatred of lowlives and criminals").  Try 150 base pts + 100 pts 
>for disadvantages for the recommended default, and similar ratios 
>for higher power levels (the lower power levels have about the right 
>ratios).  
 
   First, I often find 150 in Disads not enough. 
   Second, your definition of frivolous is apparently somewhat different 
from mine; of the three Psych Limits you listed, I would allow all of them, 
especially the third. 
   Third, I have yet to see any characters with that level or number of 
severe Disadvantages.  I've made a couple myself (Rattler and Captain 
Glory, both of whom will be in NWC), but with a specific idea in mind. 
 
>The Reputation disadvantage should be worth less if the reputation is 
>positive. 
 
   Agreed.  Or, to keep in more in line with other Disdvantages, make it 
worth the listed amount for a positive one, +5 for neutral, +10 for 
negative (currently "extreme"). 
 
>CHARACTER EXAMPLES 
>-=- 
>You should include examples of all of the very common super-hero 
>archtypes like the Speedster (eg Flash) and the Mentalist (eg 
>Psylocke) so beginning players can see how to build these.  Also, 
>explain the special effects and the rational of the powers chosen 
>so players can see why the character was built the way it was. 
>Most importantly, set a good example and make sure that all the 
>NPCs have a reasonable amount of skills and don't have any stupid, 
>excessive, or fivolous disadvantages.  The current character 
>examples in the BBB are horrible in this regard! 
 
   Agreed here; please include a speedster, a stretcher, and a vehicle 
operator!  It was a nice try, using Solitaire as a combination 
mage/mentalist and Jaguar as a combination shapeshifter/feral, but 
combining them just makes them less clear.  (A peek at some of the sample 
villains clarify a couple of these, though.) 
 
>MISC 
>-=- 
>INDEX! INDEX! INDEX! INDEX! INDEX! 
 
   Yes, please! 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 07:44:53 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Languages 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:55 PM 1/2/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote: 
>>    On a similar topic, I would allow Literacy in any alphabet of syllabary 
>> for 1 point, to cover *all* languages that use that alphabet or syllabary. 
>> A pictoral written language like Chinese should be treated as a whole 
>> separate language, with 2 points of similarity to the language(s) it's used 
>> for. 
>>    (Brian Wong or someone else can probably correct me if I'm off base 
>> here, but my understanding is that the various Chinese languages, though 
>> quite different in spoken form, use largely the same pictographis in their 
>> written forms.) 
> 
> Well, let me start by saying don't read too much into a name. :) 
>I'm only 1/4 chinese and only know the few common words one is likely 
>to pick up living in San Francisco. 
 
   In dropping your name, I was recognizing that your knowledge of Asian 
culture has already been demonstrated as far superior to mine (whereas our 
knowledge of Welsh culture is probably about the same).  Furthermore, you 
further demonstrated your superiority in this field with your response. 
 
> I do however know about 20 or so chinese characters from having 
>studied them when I learned Korean (which uses an alphabet system that in 
>my opinion is so simple it should be a 0 pointer, it matches the languages 
>sounds perfectly, and is often learned by the student before they can 
>speak more than a few simple words). 
 
   Re: Korean: I don't see how a written form and a spoken form can match 
so perfectly.  It can be completely consistent (as opposed to English, 
where the same sound can be written differently and the same 
letter/dipthong can mean different sounds), but in an alphabet (or 
syllabary) is basically a symbol method for a spoken language. 
 
> Anyway, the chinese writing system to my knowledge is universal 
>across those countries that use it with some minor variations. 
 
   Which basically makes my assessment correct, if I'm understanding your 
rightly. 
 
> Communist China has modified it somewhat to make it standard 
>throughout the country. Japan and Taiwan have done the same. A few other 
>places use it as well, though to a lesser degree. For instance Koreans only 
>use it for newspapers, and this is changing in favor of their own, simpler 
>alphabet (presently it only gets major use in names and titles both in 
>newspaper, and in naming of children). 
> 
> The character system was designed to be unlearnable by a non-scholor 
>in ancient times. It has evolved with time and it's present form has so 
>many links to the culture that knowing either chinese culture or chinese 
>pictographs should be worth a familiarity in the other. 
 
   Interesting point! 
 
> Several parts of the language which share links across asian 
>countries do so due to the writing system. Such as one of Korea's two 
>numbering systems, which sounds like the asian equivalent of what a 
>Jamacain sounds like to a New Yorker. They basically they use 'misspronounced 
>chinese', and up until recently wrote numbers using the chinese numerical 
>system (which is still used in places trying to get a 'traditional' feel). 
 
   Kinda like our using Roman letters but Arabic numerals.  That must've 
been freaky to some folks in the early days of this writing system. 
 
> One example of a link to culture there is the almost universal asian 
>fear of the number 4. Much like the west's view of the number 13. This is 
>because the chinese character's for 4 and death are nigh identical. 
> 
> My summation is that KS:Given asian culture 
>or LS: given asian language 
>should both give about 1 to 2 points familiarity with the pictographs. 
>2 points for Chinese or Japanese, 1 for Korean. I couldn't say for 
>other asian countries that might use the alphabet (I know there are more, but 
>my knowledge of south-east asia is highly limited, as is my knowledge of 
>west-asia.) 
 
   For Japanese, I would make it somewhat more expensive, given that they 
mix and match four different writing styles (romaji, kanji, hiragana, and 
katakana). 
   (Now everyone on the list knows everything I know about writing in 
Japanese.) 
 
> Similarly a LS: CHinese writing should give a 2 point bonus towards 
>chinese culture, 1 to Korean or Japanese. And should give similar bonuses 
>to the spoken languages. But only give this bonus to the language and 
>culture under which one studies the pictographs. To the other groups it 
>should give the bonus only AFTER at least one point is spent in them. 
 
   Actually, knowing a language almost always gives some clues to the 
culture from which the language comes, and it's hard to really master the 
language without some knowledge of the culture.  This is as true of 
Spanish, French, Greek, Hebrew, Russian, and even English as it is of 
Chinese and Japanese. 
 
> But I'm no more inheritantly qualified here than is say a New Yorker 
>named McDougal on Scottland. :) 
 
   Which echoes my previous comment re: Wales. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 07:47:19 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Languages Chinese 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:27 PM 1/2/98 -0500, Bruce Crow wrote: 
>>>> Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 01/02/98 10:38am    
>A pictoral written language like Chinese should be treated as a whole 
>separate language, with 2 points of similarity to the language(s) it's used 
>for. 
>   (Brian Wong or someone else can probably correct me if I'm off base 
>here, but my understanding is that the various Chinese languages, 
>though quite different in spoken form, use largely the same pictographis 
>in their written forms.)<<< 
> 
>This is generally true. Written Chinese is consistent in that it uses 
>mandarin grammar, sentence structure, etc. regardless of the dialect of 
>the target reader. However, Cantonese does have a written form (used 
>mostly for books targeted at less literate people) which uses regular 
>characters (with a couple of exceptions) but in Cantonese grammar. 
> 
>The advent of simplified characters (pictographs) confuses matters. 
>People in Taiwan learn traditional characters. When they see a simplified 
>character, they can usually guess which character it replaces. The 
>reverse does not work. A person in mainland China who learned only 
>simplified characters (most people) could not look at a traditional 
>character version and figure out which simplified character was 
>equivalent. Thus they are mutually intelligible in one direction only. 
> 
>The same applies in spoken Chinese. My friends in Hong Kong, who 
>speak Cantonese and could read (all of them), could understand what a 
>mandarin speaking person was saying, but could not speak it very well. 
>This was because of the written language being the same. But my 
>mandarin friends would throw up their hands trying to make out what a 
>Cantonese speaking person was saying. 
> 
>Though this trivia would probably never come up in a champions game, 
>anything written in Chinese prior to 1912 would be completely 
>unintelligible to anyone except a Chinese ancient languages scholar. Prior 
>to that date, all written documents were still written in the Chinese 
>writing style codified by the Chin emperor (3rd century BC?) which is the 
>cultural equivalent of our writing in Latin. Mostly the same characters, 
>just different grammar.  
> 
>Sorry for the only slightly relevant tangent. 
 
   Actually, this is quite interesting and may actually prove useful in a 
game or supplement of mine some day.  I've been thinking of writing a Far 
East Enemies book (along the lines of European Enemies, without that book's 
myriad faults that brought about its nickname of Plan Nine from Hero 
Games), and this could be a useful bit of information.   :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 07:58:39 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Need help with an item 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:57 PM 1/2/98 -0500, Lisa Hartjes wrote: 
>Hi! 
> 
>I want to make up a sword whose damage cannot be healed except through 
>normal means - healing Aid, etc. will not work.  Does anyone have any 
>suggestions? 
 
   The first thing that comes to mind would be Difficult to Dispel. 
   More likely, I'd use an Entangle with the following Modifiers: Invisible 
Power Effects (visible only to Detect, +3/4), Must be Targeted (+1/2), 
Vulnerable to One Type of Attack Only (Power Defense, +1/2), 1 BODY (-1/2), 
Disappears When Wound is Healed, Does Not Restrain (-2), Linked to HKA 
(-1/2), Non-Resistant (-1/2), Single Hit Location Only (-1 1/2).  Yes, it's 
a complex kludge, but it should do the trick. 
   If you want to be less complicated about it, consider Power Defense, 
Usable Against Others, Linked to HKA, Only to Prevent Artificial Healing 
(-1), Wound Given by HKA With This Power Only (-1). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Reply-To: <903047@ican.net> 
From: "dflacks" <dflacks@ican.net> 
Subject: Hero Games Bought Out by R. Talsorian 
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 11:51:02 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
The other day I went to one of the better known comic & game stores here in 
Toronto, Canada.  The Silver snail.  It is the only local store I know of 
that has been able to expand into multiple locations.  At their main store 
they have a wall full of RPG publications, with Dozens of issues of things 
I havenít even heard of.  They had exact 4 Hero System publications, all of 
them old champions supplements. 
 
When I asked the guy behind the cash register why he didnít have more Hero 
stuff, he told me that Hero Games had been bought out by R. Talsorian and 
would only be producing Fuzion stuff from now on! 
 
He also said he did not like the Image style graphics, and wasnít planning 
to stock Fuzion unless asked.  I told him that hero games was still alive, 
just con stunned I guess.  I also told him about Gold Rush games and the 
forecasted release of a fifth edition.  I also mentioned the offer for 
exchanging the badly bound fourth edition for a properly bound copy.  This 
offer greatly impressed him.  He said very few companies are willing to 
offer that kind of after sales service.  Hopefully that will help him 
remember the Hero system.  Kudos to all. 
 
He said that he didnít particularly care for super hero gaming, and that 
was all the hero system was good for.  I told him that the hero system can 
be used to run any genre you like; Super heroes, Fantasy hero, Star hero, 
Nose pick hero, whatever you desire.  His eyes just glazed over and he 
continued to talk as though Champions was all there was to the Hero system. 
 He just doesnít seem to get it, even though one of the four modules he 
carried was Fantasy Companion II.  I said carried because I bought it. 
 
A no doubt redundant note for the people picking the art for the fifth 
edition.  Be very careful picking the cover art.  Try for something that 
shows Hero can be used for more that just Champions, without ignoring the 
fact that most of the hero stuff out there is Champions. 
 
Once the new material is printed I will try again.  After all People canít 
support the hero system if they canít find it.  Not everyone is equipped to 
deal with electronic books after all. 
 
Eagerly awaiting the new hero publications. 
 
Daniel Flacks    dflacks@ican.net 
 
Reply-To: <903047@ican.net> 
From: "dflacks" <dflacks@ican.net> 
Subject: Fantasy Magic - Skill Rolls 
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 11:58:29 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Some time ago my last gaming group broke up, due to romantic complications 
between two of the players.  I have decided that it is time for me to start 
a new group.  Since I think the Hero system is one of the best around, and 
most of the game mastering I have done has been for fantasy games, I have 
decided to run a Fantasy Hero type game. 
 
I have the second edition of fantasy hero and the fantasy hero companion 
II, but they are not quite what I what to run.  So, I am taking advantage 
of the high degree of flexibility in the Hero system to design a fantasy 
campaign the way I want it to be.  As I design the campaign, questions 
occur.  I plan to post some of the to the list in hopes that others can 
help me answer them. 
 
Todayís topic: Fantasy Magic 
 
First a little, or a lot, of background on what I have in mind, and then 
the questions. 
 
There are four basic types of magic; Granted, Inherent, Item, and Learned. 
Granted magic is powers given by the deities, such as a paladinís ability 
to heal with a touch.  Any character can have a granted power, but he must 
have a Devout Believer phycological limitation. 
 
Inherent magic is such racial abilities as an Elves longevity or a Trolls 
ability to regenerate.  Such magic is part of their biology.  Half-breeds 
are very rare, only some of the species can interbreed, and most of those 
require magical help to do so.  Those that can interbreed pass on specific 
inherent magic to their offspring.  This means that inherent magic is 
strictly limited to racial package deals. 
 
Item magic is, obviously, magic stored in items.  Such focused magic is 
nearly always independent.  Magic items are rare, and the creation of a new 
one required lots of research, skill rolls, rare ingredients, etc.  Magic 
items will be strictly controlled.  No Monty Hall campaign here, thank you. 
 
Learned magic, ah, hereís the tricky part.  Learned magic is any form of 
magic that must be studied.  A Wizardís spells, a Clericís Prayers, a Bards 
Spell songs, a Witches potions, etc. 
Any character can learn magic.  All they require is an appropriate magic 
skill and a magical end reserve to power the spells.  I am going with the 
end reserve as that allows from physically weak wizards with incredible 
magic reserves to powerful fighter types who can barely cast the occasional 
spell.  Since I want magic to be difficult and tricky, the Requires a Skill 
roll limitation looks like a good idea.  It is the skill roll limitation 
that is the basis of this set of questions. 
 
Now the questions; 
1) I want Secular magic and Religious magic to have a different flavour, 
but if a player can make up his own spells, what is to prevent a Wizard 
type character from having the exact same powers, advantages and 
limitations as a Cleric type character?  How do I make the two different 
enough that one can tell which type of magic is being used? 
  
2)  I am not sure I want to have the Skill roll limitation on religious 
magic.  After all clerics are supposed to be representatives of their 
deities, and it hardly looks good to potential worshippers if your clericís 
powers fail.  But If I remove the skill roll limitations then you have a 
wizard who can cast a spell that sometimes fails, and a cleric who can cast 
the same spell and have it always work.  Why would anyone play the wizard?  
The power and influence of clerics would far outstip all others, and I do 
not want to run a religously based  campaign.  I need a way to make secular 
magic and religious magic different while keeping the two in balance. 
 
3) I have a problem with an archmage capable of destroying a castle with a 
single spell, still fumbling a simple light spell.  What I am looking at is 
allowing characters to buy off the skill roll limitation with earned 
experience.  All spells would start with a skill roll, but with experience 
could become second nature.  I want to prevent characters from buying off 
the skill roll on the most powerful spell while having their simplest 
spells still fail.  Should all lower points spells have to be bought off 
first?  Perhaps a limit on the maximum active point level that can be 
bought off?  If so what limit? 
 
4) I like the flexibility of the hero system, and donít plan on restricting 
characters to one college or school of magic, so I will not be using a 
college system.  Never the less, if a player want to voluntarily restrict 
himself to one special effect, he should get some compensation for the 
increased vulnerability that entails.  I need some way so that a fire 
specialist, for example, would be better at fire magic that an ordinary 
spell caster? 
 
5) Finally, What about skill rolls on linked powers.  To get the effect I 
want, some spells will require more that one power.  If multiple powers are 
linked, all with the skill roll limitation, does the player roll multiple 
relatively easy skill rolls or one much more difficult skill roll? 
 
I am not trying to restart the great link debate.  This question does not 
have to do with if you think the link disadvantage is priced properly, or 
is even a disadvantage.  Nor does it have to do with if you think that 
linked powers must go off together or only can go off together.  I know 
what the value of link will be in this campaign, and the spells will be 
designed so that the player wants the powers to always go off together.  So 
please no link debate flame war this time. 
 
Any help from the list would be greatly appreciated. 
 
Give me ambiguity or give me something else; 
Daniel Flacks      dflacks@ican.net 
 
Reply-To: <903047@ican.net> 
From: "dflacks" <dflacks@ican.net> 
Subject: Apologies for duplicate mail 
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 11:59:14 -0500 
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This is an apology in case the list got duplicates of my recent email.  My 
computer blew up while I was sending some email, and it has taken me 
several days to fix it.  Unfortunently I lost all my internate saved 
locations, stored email, and email addresses.  I have recoverd what I can, 
rewrote and resent those letters I remember.  So if the list got two copies 
of my email, or any bad email when my computer died, I apologize. 
 
 
Give me ambiguity or give me something else; 
Daniel Flacks      dflacks@ican.net 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist part 2 of 2 
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:24:18 -0800 
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On Friday, January 02, 1998 10:56 AM, Eric Burns wrote: 
 
 
>Here is my list of suggestions for changes to everything but the 
>powers section for the 5th edition.  Sorry it's a bit long, but 
>I'm on winter break and have too much time on my hands. 
>-=- 
>SKILLS: 
>-=- 
>Consider making non-combat skills cheaper.  Skills like Acting, 
>Conversation, and Oratory should have a base cost of 2 and a +1 level 
>cost of 1.  The same should go for any skill that is not useful in 
>combat (like breakfall or acrobatics) or extremely versitile or 
useful 
>(like stealth or mechanics).  This will encourage players to create 
>more well-rounded characters.  You really need to emphasize the 
>importance of skills! 
 
 
A few suggestions. Some skills should be done similarly to vehicles. 
For example: Musician. Characters with Musician are musicians, and 
automatically have familiarity with one instrument. Then, buy 
Instrument Familiarity. For one point, you can use an instrument, for 
two you can use an instrument family. You could do the same with 
Chemistry, with Science Familiarity used the same way for various 
types of chemistry. 
 
>PERKS: 
<snip> 
>-=- 
>"No Reluctance to Kill" should be a Fringe Benefit, since it gives 
>a character one hell of an advantage in a fight.  This would cost 
>5pts and allow you to kill your enemies without hesitation.  A 
>stronger version "Completely Evil" would cost 10pts and allow you 
>to commit any evil act, no matter how vile, without even the smallest 
>bit of reluctance.  The cost could be offset with Psych Disads. 
 
 
I don't know about this one. It might be a good idea, I suppose. "No 
morality" or something similar might be better than "Completely Evil", 
as a sentient computer might have no morality per se, but not be evil. 
 
>Contacts should be broadened to include groups of people, like the 
>New York Underworld or the FBI.  This would represent an information 
>network not dependant on a single person but on a number of people 
>out of whom you could bribe or cajole information.  This would cost 
>3/2 (not 2/1) since it is less fragile than a single person (you 
don't 
>have to worry abou Jimmie the Hat being killed in a drug deal gone 
bad 
>or whatever). 
 
 
Definitely. I have a character who is an NPC in my present PBeM 
campaign called The Mystic One. He is secretly a priest in his Secret 
ID, one who is very active in his community, makes friends well, and 
is actively trying to get information, and thus should be able to get 
all kinds of information. However, the cost of buying enough contacts 
to simulate this is hideous. 
 
You might also consider making Contacts who can only give you normal 
information cheaper than ones who will give you classified information 
or do things for you. A contact on the police force who will help you 
but follows the rules is less useful than one who will give you 
information on cases under investigation. Such contacts are possibly 
even less useful than the present minimum, and thus should cost less. 
Besides, they are sooooo useful to GMs. 
 
 
<snip> 
>POWER FRAMEWORKS: 
>-=- 
>Make Elemental Control an optional rule.  Generally speaking, it only 
>rewards players for doing what they should be doing anyway: building 
>cohesive characters. 
 
 
Elemental Control helps balance the cheapness of STR. Keep it in. 
Additionally, optional rules that may be used during character 
creation should be avoided, as it results in characters that are legal 
only in certain campaigns, unlike optional rules like Hit Locations. 
 
>DISADVANTAGES: 
>-=- 
>150 pts of disadvantages is too much!  You either get blind, 
one-armed, 
>blue-skinned, berserk-prone, pet-owning  psychopaths on the run from 
>3 seperate organizations or you get characters with frivolous 
>disadvantages (eg "seeker of eternal truth", "homesick", or 
>"hatred of lowlives and criminals").  Try 150 base pts + 100 pts 
>for disadvantages for the recommended default, and similar ratios 
>for higher power levels (the lower power levels have about the right 
>ratios). 
 
 
I do like this suggestion. I did the same thing in my present PBeM 
campaign. Superheroes do not generally have more troubles than your 
average hero in other genres. They have troubles that are unique to 
being superheroes, but not _more_ troubles. 
 
Besides, it is a major pain trying to start a campaign with newer 
players, trying to find that last 50 pts for a half-dozen players. 
Hell, it is a major pain with experienced players. 
 
<snip> 
>CHARACTER EXAMPLES 
>-=- 
>You should include examples of all of the very common super-hero 
>archtypes like the Speedster (eg Flash) and the Mentalist (eg 
>Psylocke) so beginning players can see how to build these.  Also, 
>explain the special effects and the rational of the powers chosen 
>so players can see why the character was built the way it was. 
>Most importantly, set a good example and make sure that all the 
>NPCs have a reasonable amount of skills and don't have any stupid, 
>excessive, or fivolous disadvantages.  The current character 
>examples in the BBB are horrible in this regard! 
 
 
Good examples of archetypes is good, but the above suggestion should 
be in the Superhero genre book, not in the HSR. 
 
>MISC 
>-=- 
>INDEX! INDEX! INDEX! INDEX! INDEX! 
 
 
Absolutely. A very good index. I recently had fun with this, as I 
haven't played much for a couple of years, trying to find damage for 
household current. I expected to find it in environment. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist part 1 of 2 
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:26:43 -0800 
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<snip> 
 
>A Life Support vs. Violent death (character will recover BODY at 
>normal rate no matter how low it is) would help make a lot of 
>character concepts more possible.  I liked the suggestion that 
>someone made that it should cost 30 pts for full immunity, and 
>20 pts for immunity with exceptions (like stake though the heart 
>or sunlight for vampires). 
 
 
Something along this line would be good. This is another one where I 
don't mind a kludge, but it should be clearly explained how 
to do it. 
 
<snip> 
>-=- 
>Under Shrinking, you should introduce the limitation "Weak Shrinking" 
>a la Dave Mattingly's Power Points article.  Weak Shrinking would be 
>a -1 Limitation that would decrease your STR by 5pts for every level 
>you shrink.  Maybe this limitation should affect movement rates, ED, 
>and/or PD as well.  Also, when any two characters of different sizes 
>fight, the smaller character should get DCV and OCV advantages, and 
>the larger character should get DCV and OCV penalties. 
 
I like the Weak Shrinking. I also like the suggestion that this should 
affect movement rates. However, I disagree with the last part. First, 
the _size_ of shrunk characters is only part of the reason that they 
cannot be hit easily. Increased mobility in relation to size is also 
part of it. If I could only move as fast in proportion to my size as I 
do now, then someone trying to swat me would have an enormous 
advantage if I was only 1" tall. 
 
Secondly, the other people around you are not easier to hit for three 
reasons. One is game balance; shrinking is horribly effective at 
higher levels as it is. The other is that a giant who could move as 
easily as a normal man in spite of his enourmous size would not really 
be that easy to hit. Try hitting someone with a sword when your reach 
is half an inch. They move an inch and they are out of reach. Lastly, 
there is genre. Wasp is not super accurate because of her size. 
 
>There should be a "Slipping" power to cause people to fall over if 
they 
>move too fast.  This is one of the few powers that seem impossible to 
>do under the current rules. 
 
 
Some people think that "Slipping" can be bought as Suppress or Drain 
when using the Negative Characteristic Rules. That said, this needs to 
be clearly defined if true, and the NCR must be part of the book. 
Otherwise, some sort of power along these lines is needed. 
 
<snip> 
>For Telepathy, you need to more clearly state what each effect 
>level means.  What's the difference between a "surface thought", a 
>"deep, hidden thought", a "memory", and a "subconscious" thought??! 
>Give examples.  You should also introduce a "senses feed" option 
>whereby you could see, hear, etc whatever the target is experiencing 
>(+5 pts per sense, +10 pts per sense group) if you make telepathic 
>contact.  Using Clairsentience to simulate this ability is far too 
>expensive for what it's worth. 
 
 
The same thing is needed for Mind Control. For instance, the broadness 
and generality of a command should mean something. Ex: "Be the Black 
Enchantresses total slave" should cost more than, "Hit that wall", 
assuming that they are equally opposed otherwise. The ease with which 
a task can be performed should also matter. "Drop your gun" should be 
easier to do than, "Lift that truck." Generally, more detail would be 
good here. 
 
>Teleportation is too expensive, especially long-range teleportation. 
>Long range NCM Teleportation won't help you in combat, so there is 
>no harm in making it much cheaper.  2x distance shouldn't cost more 
>than 2pts per doubling.  Also, introduce a Gateway advantage that 
>would make the teleportation work by way of a portal that anyone 
could 
>walk through. 
 
 
Long range flight would also be a good option. Additionally, there 
should be a version of FTL for teleporters. 
 
>The Transform power needs a complete rewrite!  It is far too vague, 
and 
>has some problems.  First of all, it needs to be clearly stated 
whether, 
>how, and by how much the point total of a victim can be changed as a 
>result of each type of transform.  Secondly powers that are more 
useful 
>should cost more, so that turning someone into a marble statue (major 
>transform) should cost more than blinding someone (major transform). 
>Thirdly, this power is the most likely to confuse or be misused, so 
you 
>need to have LOTS AND LOTS OF EXAMPLES.  Don't be afraid to fill up 
two 
>pages on the description of this power! 
 
 
Yes, yes, yes! We need this badly. Your example is a good one, but how 
about the ability to blind someone (Major Transform) compared to the 
ability to turn them into your willing slave (Major Transform)? 
 
>Almost every power needs a more detailed description with MORE 
EXAMPLES! 
 
 
Yes, please. Please, please, please, please, please. 
 
<snip> 
 
Except as noted above, I pretty much agree with all of the above. 
Additional note: Anything that was explicitly stated in the previous 
editions of the rules should either be restated for people who never 
had 3rd Ed., or explicitly stated to be different. Part of the problem 
with the GLD was that it used to be stated outright that the larger 
power was limited; now it isn't. Many of the debates we have had have 
been over whether or not a previous rule still applied, whether we 
generally realized that or not. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it really bad? 
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:53:59 -0800 
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On Friday, January 02, 1998 11:28 AM, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote: 
 
 
>On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, Filksinger wrote: 
> 
>> Close, but your weighting is biased. You should also calculate the 
>> point at which a OCV is so high that anything higher is 
functionally 
>> equivalent. Lets take an extreme number and say a 25 OCV. This 
gives 
>> you a weighted average of 12.5 OCV. High, yes, but not as extreme 
as 
>> the situation you make out. 
>> To do this properly, calculate the point at which your OCV gives 
you a 
>> hit only on a 3- under any normal circumstances in your campaign, 
and 
>> the point at which your OCV hits on a 17- under any normal 
>> circumstances. Then, using these numbers, do your "weighted 
average". 
> 
>I believe it's still a bad idea to say that there's a point at which 
all 
>higher OCV's are functionally equivalent. Doing so allows hit 
>circumstances that can be unpredictable (autofire? called shots? 
range 
>penalties?)... similarly for skill rolls. And in the case of damage, 
>calculating a weighted average with a maximum seems difficult at 
>least. 
 
 
In the case of a "To Hit" roll it is necessary. A person with a 50 OCV 
will not miss greater than one try in 216, the best one can do in 
Hero. A person with a 100 OCV half the time and a -100 OCV half the 
time will miss 50% of the time. Thus, a person with the originally 
suggested variable OCV is _not_ equivalent to a person with a 50 OCV. 
 
Don't believe me? Create two identical characters, and then declare by 
default that one has a 50 OCV, and the other the variable OCV above. 
See which one is more effective. 
 
In reality, my weighted average is still not sufficient. The character 
will miss 50% of the time, period. Therefore, his variable OCV has a 
base value equal to the OCV needed to hit half the time in the 
campaign, under all possible circumstances. The calculation to do this 
is statistical, and would require years of information collecting, to 
determine what is needed to hit in the campaign, over and over again, 
and find the average. To make matters worse, if the 50-50 nature of 
the "to hit" roll is consistent, first one, then the other, every 
time, then the character could waste minimum effectiveness and cost 
attacks on his guaranteed misses, and put real effort into his other 
attacks. Lastly, the effectiveness of the character would vary 
according to the DCV of his opponent. 
 
 
My weighting method is a rock bottom minimum for this calculation. 
 
>Champions is a system where I think it's a good idea to keep the 
numbers 
>and their analysis near each other for both attack and defense. We 
should 
>have a system where I'm rolling against someone's defenses, not 
rolling 
>regardless of defenses. STUN lotto, etc. are cases where a player is 
>generally making a roll that has little to do with the target's 
defenses 
>and more to do with the result of a one-sided roll. 
> 
 
That might not be a bad idea, but it wouldn't be Hero anymore. It 
would be a new combat system. 
 
A friend of mine who used to work for SPI had a system where every 
attack had a penetration value, and every defense had a resistance 
value. These were independent of how much damage the attack could 
stop. If the penetration was higher than the resistance, the defenses 
were lowered, if they were lower, the defenses were raised. Thus, a 
fist had poor penetration, a knife better, a bullet better, and an 
armor-piercing bullet better yet, even if all were the same "Damage 
Class". Similarly, some armors were more resistant to penetration than 
others, and required more "armor piercing" attacks to penetrate. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Probability 
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:11:48 -0800 
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OnFriday, January 02, 1998 3:00 PM, Sam Bell wrote: 
 
 
> 
>-> From jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au Fri Jan  2 15:29:58 1998 
>-> 
>-> At 03:19 PM 12/31/97 -0800, Sam Bell wrote: 
>-> > 
<snip> 
>-> > 
>-> >"A single dice[sic] can't really have an average of probability 
anyway."??? 
>-> > 
>-> >What does "average of probability" mean? A single die certainly 
does have 
>-> >an expected value. 
>-> > 
>-> 
>-> no, not in terms of genuine probability. it has an average value, 
but not 
>-> and expected value. the average has nothing to do with the 
>-> 'odds of any given number occuring" as far as the single roll 
goes. 
>-> 
> 
> 
>I still can't figure you out. A single 6-sided die has an expected 
return 
>value of 3.5. As the number of trials approaches positive infinity 
the average 
>of the returned values will approach 3.5 (for any fair die). 
> 
>It is difficult to determine what you are asserting, and your 
non-standard 
>grammar and lack of proofreading makes it even harder. 
 
 
He is stating that, no matter what the probability averages out to be, 
the chances of his rolling any single number are exactly the same at 
any time. He can roll a six as easily as a three. The mode for this 
probability spread is equal to every possible number in the spread. 
 
 
>Also, please tell me what 'average of probability' means to you. It 
doesn't 
>mean anything to me. 
> 
 
 
Average of probability apparently means a high in the probability 
curve. You get one with two d6s, but not with one. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:54:08 -0800 
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On Friday, January 02, 1998 5:07 PM, Matthew Mactyre wrote: 
 
 
>At 09:21 PM 1/1/98 -0800, you wrote: 
>>Additionally, the Hero System is supposed to be universal. In a 
>>superhero campaign, a hero being hit with a Light Antitank Weapon 
and 
>>living may be acceptable, but it just doesn't cut it in a 
mercenaries 
>>campaign. Live, maybe, but minimal and no damage results get 
downright 
>>silly. 
> 
>Wilhelm the VIPER agent beads down on Joe the P.I. with his LAW 
rocket. 
>Joe has been a real pain in the butt recently and Wilhelm isn't 
taking 
>anymore chances with him.  He takes careful aim at Joe's head, fires, 
and 
>hits.  The Law rocket does 4d6K AP +1 Stun Mod.  Average roll, 14 X 2 
for 
>the hit to the head equaling 28 points.  Joe with his 10 body is 
dead.  :-( 
> For special effect, the GM says that Joe's head got blown off. 
 
 
Wilhelm the VIPER agent beads down on Joe the P.I. with his LAW 
rocket. Joe has been a real pain in the butt recently and Wilhelm 
isn't taking any more chances with him. He isn't the world's greatest 
shot, but figures that with an anti-tank weapon, simply hitting Joe 
should be sufficient. Wilhelm fires, and watches as the LAW rocket 
slams into Joe's shoulder. 
 
Joe is wearing his trusty ballistic vest, made of the latest (real 
world) Spectra material. It is worth 4 PD resistant, does not affect 
STUN. Wilhelm's LAW rocket rolls a 6 in damage. The vest absorbs 2 
points of BODY. Because Joe has resistant defenses, his PD of six 
resists the STUN damage and stops an additional 3 pts of STUN. Using 
the Hit Location chart, we see that the missile does 4 pts BODY and 21 
STUN. 
 
Joe's eyes glaze over for a few seconds. Then, he raises the gun held 
in his hand (the same hand that has the shoulder that got shot), and 
shoots Wilhelm dead. He has no penalty to his to hit roll, because his 
shoulder is not impaired, because he is not badly injured. He goes 
home, and heals in about 3 weeks, with no more medical care than 
bandages, rest, and iodine. 
 
What was that about realism? 
 
>Realism is in the eye of the beholder.  I'm more interested in the 
>cinematic nature of the game.  I've often said while GMing a game, 
"Well, 
>that's how it was done in Terminator, or Remo Williams."  Hero is a 
>universal gaming system. I've used it for Fanstasy, Super Heroes, 
Super 
>Agents, Agents, and Space.  I've found it works will with many genres 
and 
>really doesn't need to be tweaked.  Some of the low end rolls can 
lead to 
>funny results, like my "Big Bird" example in an earlier post, but 
overall 
>I'm very happy with the way damage classes work in the game, both 
normal 
>and killing. 
 
 
And I'm not. I like the option of having realism in my games if I want 
it. If I told the player of Joe that, because of realism, his 
character was dead, even after he saw my rolls, he would have the 
right to be a bit ticked off. If I choose to run realistic campaigns, 
I want rules to do so. Especially as I cannot determine what 
non-realistic genre convention is being followed by allowing 
occasional rolls to be ridiculously low. I don't recall many heroes 
defined as physically normal shrugging off direct hits by anti-tank 
weapons in _any_ genre. Colossus may be all right, but Cyclops would 
not be. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:02:29 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: What are Incomplete Rules? 
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On Fri, 2 Jan 1998, Kevin J. McClain wrote: 
 
> Pardon my ignorance but I have seen several references to "Incomplete 
> Rules" here on the list and wondered what/where are these rules? 
>  
 
The Incomplete Rules are an effort to logically integrate all the 
character types built with "incomplete" sets of characteristics (i.e. 
Automata, Vehicles, Computers, and Spirits) and allow the construction of 
similar types through a consistent set of rules. While I think it's still 
a work in progress, it's a wonderful extension of the Hero rules.  
It's on the Web at: 
 
http://www.best.com/~jimalj/incomp.html 
 
 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 14:12:44 -0800 
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On Friday, January 02, 1998 5:23 PM, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
 
>On Fri, 2 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote: 
> 
>> On Thursday, January 01, 1998 9:48 PM, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
> 
>> >Because I can do what you call "hamstringing" without actually 
>> >impeding my ability to create character concepts, and additionally 
I 
>> >avoid aggravating and munchkiny constructions. 
>> 
>> Excellent. Then, without the "munchkiny" construct in question, 
create 
>> a character who is truly invulnerable to all fire. 
> 
>Completely trivial. Buy enough rED only vs fire to be immune to 
whatever 
>the maximum amount of fire you're even vaguely likely to encounter 
is, 
>and call the special effects "true invulnerability to all fire". 
> 
>As a bonus, this construction is appropriately costed pretty much by 
>definition, whereas the Desolid route is squirrelly. (Why should the 
>cost of immunity to fire vary based on the AP of my attack Powers?) 
 
 
Unfortunately, what was asked for from the begining was true 
invulnerability, not a sufficiently close approximation. Personally, I 
probably wouldn't allow it in my campaign at all, but some people want 
it, and your method doesn't actually give it. 
 
>> IOW, either create Invulnerability as a power, or state outright 
that 
>> you can make a character invulnerable without making him 
insubstantial 
>> while still using Desolidification. 
> 
>You can, but it doesn't work very well. 
> 
>> This would also solve the "Density Reduction" problem. 
> 
>What "Density Reduction" problem? 
> 
 
An argument that went through here recently was about how to create a 
character with reduced density. Some people wanted "Shrinking, does 
not get smaller". Others argued that you couldn't do this, and offered 
various inadequate constructs, mostly based upon Desolidification, 
none of which did a good job of simulating "styrofoam man". 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net 
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 17:27:01 -0500 
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist part 2 of 2 (Disads) 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>150 pts of disadvantages is too much!  You either get blind, one-armed, 
>>blue-skinned, berserk-prone, pet-owning  psychopaths on the run from  
>>3 seperate organizations or you get characters with frivolous  
>>disadvantages (eg "seeker of eternal truth", "homesick", or 
>>"hatred of lowlives and criminals").  Try 150 base pts + 100 pts 
>>for disadvantages for the recommended default, and similar ratios 
>>for higher power levels (the lower power levels have about the right 
>>ratios).  
 
In contrast I've never had trouble coming up with 150 points in disads and 
at least so far I've never needed to resort to the 'blind, one armed, blue 
skinned, berserk prone pet-owning psychopaths'.  The wat I look at it 
disads define your character as much as your powers do.  Psych lims are 
things you strongly believe, or at low point levels, they are quirks. 
Little things that make the character unique.    Hunteds you start with can 
define things like where you came from, who you have been fighting against, 
ect.   
 
Admittedly, disads can be a matter of taste.  The one's above don't seem 
terribly frivolous to me, except maybe homesick. 
 
> 
>You know, there's nothing in the rules requiring you to take the full 
>disadvantage points.  I've run completely successful characters who started 
>with 50-100 pts. of Disadvantages.  After all, since Disadvantages are 
>presumed to be, well, disadvantageous, a character who doesn't take any has 
>an edge worth roughly 150 pts. over his blind, one-armed, blue-skinned, 
>psychopathic pals. 
 
This is very true.  There is no rule that says you must take the full 150 
and there is no need to.  I usually do because often I can come up with 
more than 150 pointed based on my backgrounds for characters.  The 100 
point character with no disads is possible, but seems kinda bland to me. 
No real strong beliefs, quirks or anything.  I also admit, I fail to see 
how they have a 150 pt edge over people with full disads.  Maybe a big edge 
over people with alot of extreme and bizarre disads, but that's something 
different.:) 
 
TokyoMark 
 
 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"Lisa Hartjes\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 98 22:41:51  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Need help with an item 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:57:07 -0500, Lisa Hartjes wrote: 
 
>I want to make up a sword whose damage cannot be healed except through 
>normal means - healing Aid, etc. will not work.  Does anyone have any 
>suggestions? 
 
A linked Uncontrolled Suppress vs Aid? Alternatively, give the wound 
different SFX from normal wounds (like leprosy), so only an Aid vs that 
specific SFX will work. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org> 
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> 
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting 
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 23:40:34 +0000 
Subject: Double Energy per DC? 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
So Sayeth Len Carpenter <redlion@voicenet.com&> 
 
> I'll repeat my guideline that treats 1 DC as roughly equal to 50 joules of 
> energy being delivered, with a doubling of energy for every additional DC.  I 
> once read somewhere that a typical punch is in the 25-100 joule range, so this 
> seemed reasonable. 
 
The above sounds reasonable, and I've been using a very similar rule for my own  
calculation. Just today though I noticed that on page 203 of the BBB, 1 stick  
of Dynamite is listed as doing 5d6 EX while 2 sticks do 7d6 and 4 sticks do  
9d6. Whats going on here? 
 
 
--  
 Stirling Westrup  |  Use of the Internet by this poster 
 sti@cam.org       |  is not to be construed as a tacit 
                   |  endorsement of Western Technological 
                   |  Civilization or its appurtenances. 
 
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 16:00:15 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: You can't hit me! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>  
> At 10:58 AM 1/2/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
> >Technically correct; combat skill levels must be allocated at the start of 
> >every action phase.  However, nothing prevents a player from informing a GM 
> >that under normal circumstances, his DCV-only CSLs are "on DCV" as they 
> >cannot be used for anything other than that. 
>  
> This was rather what I had in mind when I said it.  Since 5 pt. DCV levels 
> can't be used for anything else but, I'd tend to assume that they're always 
> in effect. 
 
   ...In 'Combat'.  Skill levels can be stated to be continually 
allotted in on configuration throughout a combat, or for that matter, 
throughout every combat in a campaign, but when walking around town 
shopping, the character would not have the DCV levels active, unless the 
player were willing to keep track of every single phase of his 
character's exsistance.  Combat Skill Levels (of which DCV is one) are 
for combat only (which would include making any attack outside of an 
actual adversarial situation), thus the character would still be at risk 
for a surprise attack out of combat.  Which may suit the character's 
purposes, but still needs to be made clear. 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 98 00:06:03  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 02 Jan 98 19:14:18 -0800, Opal wrote: 
 
> q >  
> q > >BTW, for those who like the possibility of rolling _high_ on killing  
> q > >attacks, I refer them to the critical hit rules (if only I could find  
> q > >them).  
> q >  
> q > If you roll half or less the number needed to hit, or a 3 in any case,  
> q > yo get maximum damage.  
> q >  
> q > EG Megaman needs a 12- to hit Dr Duck, so needs a 6- to score a  
> q > critical with his 20d6 HA.  
> q >  
> q > He rolls a 5 so does 120 Stun and 40 Body.  
 
>  
>I used that Critical Hit rule in one game.  One player brought in  
>a character with a high OCV and an Autofire, No Range Mod attack.  
>  
>I have never used that rule again...  
 
It's mainly designed for heroic level play. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Reply-To: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
From: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
Subject: Need help with Heromaker drivers 
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 19:12:48 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I had to buy a new mouse because my old one decided to die on me.  I 
installed the new mouse following all the instructions and Heromaker doesn't 
seem to recognise it - I can't move the pointer around at all.  The new 
mouse is a StarMouse and I have the driver disk, but I can't figure out 
what's wrong.  Yeah, I know, StarMouse is a cheap one, but it was the only 
one that we had enough money for in an emergency. 
 
 
Lisa Hartjes 
beren@unforgettable.com 
Home:  http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/daniken/79 
"You met these things before.  What did you do?" 
<said with a grin>"I died." 
(Alien Resurrection) 
 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: Haymaker Revised 
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 20:20:46 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
Having discussed the problems with the official Knockback and throwing 
distance rules, in previous posts, I now turn to my problem with the Haymaker 
rule. 
 
I'll repeat my guideline that treats 1 DC as roughly equal to 50 joules of 
energy being delivered, with a doubling of energy for every additional DC.  I 
once read somewhere that a typical punch is in the 25-100 joule range, so 
this seemed reasonable. 
 
What's the maximum potential muscle energy a character can generate?  
Consider Lift.  Gravitational potential energy equals m*g*h, where m is the 
mass, g is the acceleration due to gravity (10 m/sec in Earth's gravity 
well), and h is the height in meters.  A 10 STR character can, with great 
effort, lift and carry 100 kg, raising it to a height of 1.5 to 2 meters.  
Call it 2 meters to keep the numbers simple, say a tall man carrying another 
man across his shoulder.  That's (100 kg) * (10 m/s) * (2 m) = 2,000 joules 
of energy.  The character can shoulder this load and still do other 
things--chew gum, walk, use some skills, and perform some other limited 
actions, as the GM permits.  So the "normal" potential energy of the 
character's body, excluding those acts and powers that can be called 
fantastic or superhuman, and excluding pushes in emergency situations, is yet 
higher, though shouldn't be much higher, unless he pushes his STR; otherwise, 
the character could be lifting even more mass with this excess energy. 
 
A 10 STR character's 2d6 punch, 100 joules, taps only about 5% of this 
potential energy.  His 3d6 Haymaker , 200 joules, about 10%.  Compare this to 
the act of throwing.  The world record for throwing the shot put is somewhat 
over 20 meters.  Call this an 18 STR man throwing with an extra STR of  25, 
hurling it with a full throwing effort roughly equivalent to that of a 
running throw.  To send the 7.3 kg object more than 20 meters requires an 
initial velocity exceeding 15 m/sec and an initial kinetic energy exceeding 
800 joules, perhaps as high as 1,200 joules or more if you take into account 
a less-than ideal throwing angle and the force of air drag.  If an 18 STR man 
has a muscle potential energy in the neighborhood of 6,000 joules, he can 
harness as much as 15% to 20% of this potential for his throw.  With me so 
far? 
 
The Haymaker rule breaks down when dealing with bricks above 35 or 40 STR.  
For example, a 60 STR character has a muscle potential energy somewhat 
exceeding 100,000 * 10 * 2 = 2 megajoules, while an 18d6 Haymaker translates 
into 6.4 megajoules of damage energy.  So where does the extra 4.4 mJ come 
from?  And why can't the character use that extra energy for lifting and 
throwing?  Characters with normal STR tap into only a fraction of their 
potential muscle energy (as would be expected), lesser bricks reach it, while 
the mightiest bricks well exceed it. 
 
Lift mass doubles with every 5 additional points of STR, yet Haymaker damage 
increases by 1-1/2d6 and an average of 1.5 BODY with every additional 5 STR.  
We could instead use Haymaker damage as the standard for measuring damage 
energy, but this flies in the face of the general rule that an additional 5 
points in a power doubles the power's effectiveness.  Also, a doubling of an 
object's mass officially increases its BODY by 1, not by 1.5, so this revised 
guideline leads to a inconsistency with the Growth and Density Increase 
powers, not to mention with vehicles and inanimate objects. 
 
Further, it can lead to damage dice inflation, when every doubling of energy 
increases damage dice by an additional 1-1/2d6, not 1d6.  This in turn calls 
for a revision of the defense values for walls, vehicles, and inanimate 
objects.  It also demands a rewrite of the already workable vehicle damage 
tables from the Champions II supplement or of any other tables or guidelines 
based on an assessment of real-word physics.  All very messy. 
 
On the other hand, throwing out or severely limiting the effectiveness of 
Haymakers in the name of "realism" takes an advantage away from bricks.  
Those who believe STR is too cheap as it is may not object so much, of 
course.  I'm also left wondering why heroes with normal STR can't tap into a 
bit more of their potential energy--it's not unreasonable to expect a normal 
hero to be able to use about 20% of his potential energy with an all-out 
attack or throw. 
 
An across the board STR boost for a Haymaker, say +10 STR for any character 
regardless of his STR stat, puts a real crimp in the damage potential of 
bricks.  My inclination is to modestly graduate the Haymaker boost, arguing 
that heroes with superhuman STR are so well practiced and so intensely 
trained in the use of their inhuman might they can come significantly closer 
to tapping their full muscle potential energy with a blow, unlike mere 
mortals.  Call it a +10 STR boost for characters up to 20 STR, +15 STR up to 
40 STR, and +20 STR above 40 STR.  No Haymakers possible for those under 8 
STR.  And NPC beasts and animals regardless of STR don't get more than a +10 
STR Haymaker boost, unless they get to work out every day in a danger room. 
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"Eric Burns\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 98 01:26:42  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist part 2 of 2 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:35:52 -0500 (EST), Eric Burns wrote: 
 
>POWER FRAMEWORKS: 
>-=- 
>Make Elemental Control an optional rule.  Generally speaking, it only 
>rewards players for doing what they should be doing anyway: building 
>cohesive characters. 
 
EC is already an optional rule. GMs seem to be very liberal in allowing 
them and the powers contained therein, though. 
 
Otherwise, some very good thoughts. 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"dflacks\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 98 01:28:09  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Fantasy Magic - Skill Rolls 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sat, 3 Jan 1998 11:58:29 -0500, dflacks wrote: 
 
>Some time ago my last gaming group broke up, due to romantic complications 
>between two of the players.  I have decided that it is time for me to start 
>a new group.  Since I think the Hero system is one of the best around, and 
>most of the game mastering I have done has been for fantasy games, I have 
>decided to run a Fantasy Hero type game. 
 
<snip> 
 
>Now the questions; 
>1) I want Secular magic and Religious magic to have a different flavour, 
 
OK, different SFX for the purposes of Suppress, Dispel et al. 
 
>but if a player can make up his own spells, what is to prevent a Wizard 
>type character from having the exact same powers, advantages and 
>limitations as a Cleric type character?  How do I make the two different 
>enough that one can tell which type of magic is being used? 
 
By the SFX. You can use this to have a mage pretend to be a priest, 
fooling the masses, but the cognoscenti will still know. 
 
>2)  I am not sure I want to have the Skill roll limitation on religious 
>magic.  After all clerics are supposed to be representatives of their 
>deities, and it hardly looks good to potential worshippers if your cleric s 
>powers fail.  But If I remove the skill roll limitations then you have a 
>wizard who can cast a spell that sometimes fails, and a cleric who can cast 
>the same spell and have it always work.  Why would anyone play the wizard?  
 
Simple: the priest has to petition (Oratory roll?) the deity for the 
spell; sometimes 
the deity says 'No'. Note that the casting does not fail. If you're 
using a VPP, then not only does it have the inherent Limitation of 
'Needs Roll to Change', but also 'Deity must approve', 'Must further 
Deity's interests' etc. Also, deity-granted spells will probably have 
Advantages like Fully Invisible, and Fully Indirect (deities often 
prefer to be subtle, and Thunderbolts strike from other-than-caster 
angles). 
 
>3) I have a problem with an archmage capable of destroying a castle with a 
>single spell, still fumbling a simple light spell.  What I am looking at is 
>allowing characters to buy off the skill roll limitation with earned 
>experience. 
 
No problem - in fact that sounds like a very good idea. An idea with 
which I'm toying is that a VPP-based mage must use regular spells, but 
if the mage has mastery of the college of magic (skill 20-), then he 
can use the VPP as a raw VPP for that college only. 
 
Example: Arkhan is a Vancian (D&D) style archmage with a 100 pt VPP. 
The VPP is normally built like this: 
 
Base Control Cost 100/2=50 
 
Advantages to Control Cost: No Roll to Change (+1), No Time to Change 
(+1) 
Active Control Cost: 150 
 
Limitations on Main Control Cost: One Charge (-2), Charge Costs END 
(-1/2), Concentration 1/2 DCV, (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations 
(-1/4), Side Effects (-1/2), IAF various (-1/2), RSR (-1/2), Lim: Only 
spells in Spell Book (-1/2)  Total -5 1/2 
 
Limitations on 'No Roll, No Time' Advantages: One Charge (-2), Charge 
Costs END (-1/2), Concentration 1/2 DCV, (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), 
Incantations (-1/4), Side Effects (-1/2), IAF various (-1/2), RSR 
(-1/2), Lim: Only if KS Spell College is 20- (-2). Total -7 
 
Real Control Cost: (50/6.5) + (100/8) = (7 + 12) = 19 
 
He also has Magic Skill 22-, KS: Water Magic 20-, and KS Fire Magic 16- 
 
So, when he wants to cast a Fireblast, he has to have memorised the 
spell beforehand (and have made the roll to memorise it and make the 
roll to cast it), but he can make up any Water Magic spell on the spot. 
He still needs to make his casting roll, though. 
 
Possibly 20- is a little low; 23- is probably better (can make any roll 
at -5) - I haven't decided. I welcome comments. 
 
>  All spells would start with a skill roll, but with experience 
>could become second nature.  I want to prevent characters from buying off 
>the skill roll on the most powerful spell while having their simplest 
>spells still fail.  Should all lower points spells have to be bought off 
>first?  Perhaps a limit on the maximum active point level that can be 
>bought off?  If so what limit? 
 
As an aside, if the characters use VPPs or Multipowers, then their caps 
are preset. 
 
>4) I like the flexibility of the hero system, and don t plan on restricting 
>characters to one college or school of magic, so I will not be using a 
>college system.  Never the less, if a player want to voluntarily restrict 
>himself to one special effect, he should get some compensation for the 
>increased vulnerability that entails.  I need some way so that a fire 
>specialist, for example, would be better at fire magic that an ordinary 
>spell caster? 
 
Easy: just use the KS: Fire Magic as a Complementary Skill Roll. 
 
Example: Arkhan is using his 100 AP Fire Blast spell, so he first rolls 
his KS: Fire Magic 16- and rolls a 10. He's made his roll by 6 so gets 
+3 on his Magic Skill Roll, raising it from 12- to 15-. Someone without 
that KS wouldn't get the bonus. 
 
>5) Finally, What about skill rolls on linked powers.  To get the effect I 
>want, some spells will require more that one power.  If multiple powers are 
>linked, all with the skill roll limitation, does the player roll multiple 
>relatively easy skill rolls or one much more difficult skill roll? 
 
Total all the Active Points, and from that work out the modifier 
 
>I am not trying to restart the great link debate. 
 
Whew! :} 
 
>From experience, I've found that players like to be able to change 
their spells, usually as a result of playing D&D, but also when they 
find that one of their spells isn't particularly effective. This means 
that a VPP is the way to go unless you have experienced players. From 
the GM's POV it also caps the APs of their spells quite nicely too. 
 
Some day I'm going to put all my stuff on a Web page. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: Characteristics Max Disadvantage 
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 20:33:53 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
An open question to the mailing list:  Has anyone ever experimented 
with enforcing the Normal Characteristic Maxima disadvantage for all 
characters in a superhero campaign, regardless of origin?  I can see 
a GM trying this in a campaign where he wants to enforce a grittier, 
more street-level feel, or where he wants to better define the 
boundary between the merely human and the superhuman. 
 
This might be a way to deal with the seeming cheapness of high STR 
for the benefits it provides, along with curtailing the stat 
inflation of so many characters where every Daredevil or Batman 
wannabe has a superhuman DEX and a PD that makes Muhammad Ali's look 
wimpy.  Some changes in power costs may now become essential or at 
least more strongly warranted for the sake of balance, though, such 
as a 5-point cost per 1d6 of HtH Attack or 10 points per 1d6 of Aid. 
 
Do any other powers seem underpriced with such a change?  How 
carefully does the GM have to monitor the use of characteristics as 
powers, especially when placed into a power framework?  Do characters 
not dependent on high stats gain too great an edge? 
 
I'm attracted to the idea of a stronger boundary between human- and 
superhuman-level characteristics.  I'm now toying with the idea of 
increasing the cost of characteristics above their maxima by x1.5 and 
rounding up, playing with the numbers to see how they changes the 
costs of characters and how they affect the balance with other 
powers.  Hence, STR, INT, PRE, PD, ED, and STUN cost 2 character 
points per point above their maxima, CON, BODY, EGO, and REC cost 3 
points above their max, DEX above 20 costs 5 points, SPD above 4 
costs 15 points, and extraordinary COM and END 1 point.  Unlike the 
description of the Normal Characteristic Maxima disadvantage, 
movement rates above the normal maxima aren't penalized, as they are 
really covered under the Running and Swimming powers. 
 
To balance the higher cost of stats that affect skills, I'd change 
the formula for skill and characteristic rolls to 8 + (CHA/3), as 
I've seen done in at least one PBEM campaign.  That gives the human 
max in a stat a base 15- roll and a 29 stat a base 18-, so a 
character doesn't have to buy his INT into the 40's to think like a 
Mr. Fantastic-type supergenius. 
 
Looking forward to the feedback. 
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-11,13,15-20,22-24,26-30 
From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David W Toomey) 
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 20:50:46 EST 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> 
>You missed the most important points. The maximum absorbed and the 
>delay rate both grow as power is Absorbed. The Absorption feeds 
>directly into the maximum. Therefore, as he gets more power, the 
>amount of power he can have increases. There is no maximum to this, it 
>grows indefinitely, limited only by the amount of current that can be 
>absorbed per phase. 
> 
>Thus, you are incorrect-- his power continues to grow. 
> 
 
 
But delay rate is *not* a power, it is an advantage.  Are you saying that 
you 
can use adjustment powers to add advantages?  I see nothing in the rules 
to allow that. 
 
My biggest problem is that it takes 3 points of gain to acquire +2 Max. 
 
(+2 max for 1 pt, but a +2 (affects all powers) makes each point cost 3) 
 
Are you implying that the +2 Advantage does *not* apply to the max, or am 
I 
missing something? 
 
(Of course, the +2 is assuming no further advantages, such as delay 
rate...) 
 
 
David W Toomey 
dwtoomey@juno.com 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Magic Shapeshifting Potions 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 03 Jan 1998 20:50:48 -0500 
Lines: 32 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "CS" == Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> writes: 
 
CS>    I gotta go with Stirling on this one.  Any power, mechanic, etc. I 
CS> use on my NPCs I integrate into the rules and power structure of my game 
CS> as a whole.  The difference is just one simple rule; PCs are generally 
CS> limited in available points.  NPCs get to have 'Villian Bonuses' to make 
CS> up large gaps between Disads and Char Cost. 
 
This does not disagree with anything I said.  To put it another way, NPCs 
do not have to balance point-wise.  By extension, you do not have to 
actually write up every mechanic they have available to them, especially 
those that are so expensive that no PC will ever be able to afford.  The 
aforementioned "villain bonus" does not need to be a discrete quantity of 
point. 
 
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Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Origin of "Does BODY" advantage 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 03 Jan 1998 20:56:05 -0500 
Lines: 27 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> You can't be serious. Weren't you the person who argued for some time 
F> that Drains can never kill, that instead we should use NNDs that do 
F> BODY? Now you are going to argue that we should use BODY Drains and not 
F> NNDs? 
 
Hardly.  I was pointing out a bit of Champions history, not my opinion on 
the matter. 
 
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From: HayVern <HayVern@aol.com> 
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 23:43:25 EST 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>Wilhelm the VIPER agent beads down on Joe the P.I. with his LAW 
>rocket. Joe has been a real pain in the butt recently and Wilhelm 
>isn't taking any more chances with him. He isn't the world's greatest 
>shot, but figures that with an anti-tank weapon, simply hitting Joe 
>should be sufficient. Wilhelm fires, and watches as the LAW rocket 
>slams into Joe's shoulder. 
 
>Joe is wearing his trusty ballistic vest, made of the latest (real 
>world) Spectra material. It is worth 4 PD resistant, does not affect 
>STUN. Wilhelm's LAW rocket rolls a 6 in damage. The vest absorbs 2 
>points of BODY. Because Joe has resistant defenses, his PD of six 
>resists the STUN damage and stops an additional 3 pts of STUN. Using 
>the Hit Location chart, we see that the missile does 4 pts BODY and 21 
>STUN. 
 
>Joe's eyes glaze over for a few seconds. Then, he raises the gun held 
>in his hand (the same hand that has the shoulder that got shot), and 
>shoots Wilhelm dead. He has no penalty to his to hit roll, because his 
>shoulder is not impaired, because he is not badly injured. He goes 
>home, and heals in about 3 weeks, with no more medical care than 
>bandages, rest, and iodine. 
 
>What was that about realism? 
 
There are few possibilities that could be overlooked in this scenario. First 
is that the rocket COULD HAVE simply grazed Joe's shoulder. I could see a 
person living through such a thing without too many regrets. That is one thing 
I kind of like about the system. No matter how good one character is. A lowly 
incompetant normal could get a lucky shot and kill a hero, (not necessarily a 
super-hero). Unlike other systems where a first level character is dog meat 
going up against a thirteenth level, at least there could be a chance, even a 
slight one in Hero System. 
 
A word to all GM's, I do not let the player's see most of my dice roles. I 
have saved the lives of many a player character that way, and I make sure that 
if my roll does kill a character, I make sure the player does see those rolls 
only if the character's death could somehow be a contribution to the 
storyline. 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 22:15:33 -0800 
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On Saturday, January 03, 1998 1:01 PM, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>Of course, STR is even BETTER than an Elemental Control: 
>        [1]        1 pt. EC: Strength-Like Abilities 
>        [1]        a) +2 PD 
>        [3]        b) +2 REC 
>        [4]        c) +5 STUN 
>        [1]        d) +2" Superleap 
>        [5]        e) +2d6 HA 
>Total Cost= 15 pts. 
> 
>Real STR to give you all this costs only 10 points, AND includes the 
ability 
>to lift things, throw things, resist knockback, etc. 
 
So use STR, no figured CHAs instead of +2d6 HA. It gives you even a 
bigger difference, and gives you the abilities of STR. It also avoids 
arguments as to whether or not HA is properly priced. 
 
> And remember, EC is 
>*already* a pure point crock (i.e. "points for nothing"), which is 
why many 
>players I've read want to either chuck it entirely or adapt it to 
allow 
>Adjustment Powers to attack the reserve (even Aaron Allston, one of 
the 
>Great HERO Minds(tm), favors the latter). 
 
 
Your example uses a very bad EC, designed to model STR exactly, and 
you claim this shows a great disparity in their respective values. The 
way you have written it, you are right. You deliberately used STR's 
greatest savings vs a very bad EC. 
 
Lets try a comparison in the other direction, optimized for EC. 
 
15   EC- Strength provided abilities 
15   +30 PD 
15   +15 REC 
15   +30 STUN 
15   +15" Superleap 
10   + 30 STR, No Figured Characteristics (-1/2) 
Total Cost: 85 pts. 
 
30   +30 STR 
24   +24 PD +6 from STR 
18   +9 REC, +6 from STR 
15   +15 STUN, +15 from STR 
18   +9" Superleap, +6" from STR 
Total Cost: 105 pts. 
 
So the relative value of EC vs STR varies enormously depending upon 
whether or not you are optimizing your example for STR or EC. Further 
tinkering will only go to show that a direct comparison is impossible, 
and only leads to false results. 
 
EC and STR are too different to compare directly across. STR may 
_generally_ save more points than EC, it is difficult to say for sure, 
and it will vary from campaign to campaign. It can definitely be said 
that EC is more flexible than STR savings, that is obvious. 
 
If you compare the two, they come out fairly even, as best as I can 
tell. This doesn't apply to non-super games that don't include Power 
Frameworks, though. 
 
However, if you adjust STR cost, then you will balance non-super games 
while unbalancing super games. Not a big benefit, given that most Hero 
players still play Champions. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 22:21:06 -0800 
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On Saturday, January 03, 1998 2:15 PM, qts wrote: 
 
 
>On Fri, 2 Jan 1998 06:40:52 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
> 
>>On Friday, January 02, 1998 4:43 AM, qts wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>><snip> 
>>>Because it's the best and usual way of modelling it. Think about 
it: 
>>>suppose I was able to transport you to me just by saying, "Hastur! 
>>>Hastur! Hastur!" You'd be pretty inconvenienced, wouldn't you? 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>>I certainly would, especially with Hastur appearing at the same 
>>time.<G> 
> 
>By which time I'd have TPorted away, leaving you as the sacrifice :}. 
>Unfortunately Big H only appears when Betelgeuse (or is it The 
Hyades?) 
>is above the horizon. 
 
 
That's UNFORTUNATE?!?!?!?!?!? 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Aid and Powers 
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 22:34:44 -0800 
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On Saturday, January 03, 1998 5:02 PM, David W. Toomey wrote: 
 
 
>> 
>>You missed the most important points. The maximum absorbed and the 
>>delay rate both grow as power is Absorbed. The Absorption feeds 
>>directly into the maximum. Therefore, as he gets more power, the 
>>amount of power he can have increases. There is no maximum to this, 
it 
>>grows indefinitely, limited only by the amount of current that can 
be 
>>absorbed per phase. 
>> 
>>Thus, you are incorrect-- his power continues to grow. 
>> 
> 
> 
>But delay rate is *not* a power, it is an advantage.  Are you saying 
that 
>you 
>can use adjustment powers to add advantages?  I see nothing in the 
rules 
>to allow that. 
 
 
Finally! Someone has found the flaw!:) 
 
I noticed this a few days ago, but have been waiting for someone to 
point out the flaw. 
 
Of course, I could buy down this rate to begin with. Costlier, but 
usable for making hero-level characters frighteningly powerful. 
 
>My biggest problem is that it takes 3 points of gain to acquire +2 
Max. 
> 
>(+2 max for 1 pt, but a +2 (affects all powers) makes each point cost 
3) 
> 
>Are you implying that the +2 Advantage does *not* apply to the max, 
or am 
>I 
>missing something? 
> 
>(Of course, the +2 is assuming no further advantages, such as delay 
>rate...) 
 
 
The only thing you are missing is that this Absorption adds fractional 
points to each characteristic each time. Very slowly, the various 
things which are absorbed to grow. Inefficient, yes, but he still gets 
way too powerful. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Origin of "Does BODY" advantage 
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 22:36:34 -0800 
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On Saturday, January 03, 1998 5:03 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>Hardly.  I was pointing out a bit of Champions history, not my 
opinion on 
>the matter. 
> 
 
 
Thanks for explaining that. I was beginning to worry about you.<g> 
You've been so reliable in your opinions in the past. 
 
Filksinger 


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